Proposed South Carolina Bill Would Allow Teachers to Participate in Student-Led Prayer

COLUMBIA, S.C. — A proposed bill in South Carolina would allow teachers to participate in times of student-led prayer and to join in on any student-led religious clubs.

H.B. 3345, sponsored by Reps. Bill Chumley, Mike Burns and Stephen Long, was filed in the state General Assembly on December 15.

“[T]he South Carolina General Assembly finds that the concept of academic freedom is derived from the guarantee of free speech under the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which also permits the free exercise of religious beliefs,” the bill’s introduction reads in part.

It therefore allows for public school teachers to join in times of student prayer if desired, or also lead a prayer if requested by students.

“A teacher employed by a public school district may express a religious viewpoint, and also may conduct or participate in any student-led prayer or student-organized prayer groups, religious clubs, or other religious gatherings organized by students of a public school,” the legislation reads.

However, some have expressed opposition to the measure out of their belief that the move would be unconstitutional. The Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion (FFRF) said in a press release that the bill is really about “emboldening public school teachers to violate the law.”

“It invites public school teachers to promote their personal religious beliefs to students in the classroom and to participate in student-organized prayer events and religious clubs. Such actions would violate both the federal Equal Access Act, which sets boundaries for teacher participation in student clubs, and the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, which, in part, protects the rights of public school students to an education free from religious proselytization,” the organization remarked.

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Tim Peacock of Peacock Panache opined that the bill would invite similar activity from Muslims and Satanists. He provided a hypothetical scenario of teachers requiring students to purchase Islamic prayer rugs.

“Christians may be surprised to learn that even if H.B. 3345 withstood constitutional muster, it wouldn’t just allow Christianity to be inserted into schools, but also every other religious belief—including Sharia Law, Satanism, and more,” he wrote. “The U.S. Constitution forbids government institutions from offering favor to any one religion above others; therefore all religious beliefs would be allowed (by law) in South Carolina schools if H.B. 3345 passes.”

As previously reported, in 1828, just 52 years after the nation’s founding, Noah Webster, known as the Father of American Scholarship and Education, wrote, “In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government, ought to be instructed. … No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”

Webster, a schoolmaster, wrote the quote in his preface to the nation’s first dictionary, which often cited Christianity and the Bible.


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  • Croquet_Player

    Honestly. Will these people never learn? This is unconstitutional and will be overturned, (if it even passes in the first place), but not before a chunk of time and taxpayer money have been totally wasted.

    • Oboehner

      Tossing around the term “unconstitutional” doesn’t make it so.

      • jscotttheory

        For a court to determine

        • Ambulance Chaser

          It’s already been determined. See above (Santa Fe ISD v. Doe).

          • jscotttheory

            Is there a differentiation between in the school building and during school hours?

          • Ambulance Chaser

            No. Santa Fe involved students using the school’s loudspeakers to pray before a football game between their school and another. It wasn’t teacher-led, and it wasn’t during school hours. Still unconstitutional.

          • jscotttheory

            I have worked in public schools where students were allowed to have prayer meetings before or after school, and teachers did not participate.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            That’s fine because there are no staff present and no indication that they were promoting or participating in the prayer.

            In fact, School staff can pray with students as long as they do it in a manner that makes it clear that they are not participating in their capacity as school staff.

            There are really very few restrictions on prayer in this country, despite what people crying persecution would have you believe. It’s so easy to not violate the Establishment Clause that I might even go so far as to say that you have to work to do it.

          • Jason Todd

            And the proper response from the governor of the state in question should have been: “Dear SCOTUS: Go to hell. What part of ‘free exercise of religion’ do you have trouble understanding?”

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Which would have earned them a swift and painful sanction.

          • jscotttheory

            Cue the histrionics and hand wringing RE:activist judges as if Separation of Powers is not a thing… Someone please think of the children!!

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Um, excuse me?

          • jscotttheory

            I’m waiting for someone to claim Santa Fe ISD v Doe is an example of “liberal activist judges” making law and circumventing the will of the people…Seems to be a popular refrain.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Sorry, I thought you said “Cut the histrionics…” That’s my fault for reading too quickly.

            Anyway, I wouldn’t so much say I “reject” that line of thinking as I would say “it’s irrelevant.” The law simply doesn’t care whether [general] you like a given decision, agree with it, or feel that it flows legally from the precedent. The point is it’s still law and must be followed. I don’t much like or agree with Burwell v. Hobby Lobby or Greece v. Galloway, but I’m not so pigheaded or uneducated as to pretend that they can be ignored. In fact, that’s why I get so upset about poor Supreme Court rulings: because I know how powerful they are.

        • Oboehner

          Ultimately the people.

      • jscotttheory

        If their prayer meeting doesn’t take place during the school day and attendance is voluntary, I don’t see how a new law is even necessary. If, on the other hand, the prayers take place during class time and I would be expected to participate, uhh no thanks…Not interested in your little ritual.

        • Oboehner

          Feel free not to participate, but please do remove your religion from the schools as well, I don’t wish to participate.

          • jscotttheory

            I have no religion, particularly while in a classroom.

          • Oboehner

            Evolutionism.

          • jscotttheory

            On reviewing the texts I’ve used for the past 20+ semesters, no mentions of evolution; once again, you have no clue what you are yammering about.

          • Oboehner

            Sure.

          • jscotttheory

            Take on of my classes, I can guarantee you within the realm of political philosophy and comparative politics the topic of evolution is not broached.

          • Oboehner

            Probably not in the real of knitting or crocheting either.

          • jscotttheory

            Knitting your specialization? Probably just as well, as I doubt you’d hack it in philosophy or epistemology given your inability for abstract original thought. Best stick to your myths.

          • Oboehner

            Abstract original thought = brainwashed stupidity. Best stick to your myths.

          • jscotttheory

            And your reality is based on an old man living in the sky? What a fucking idiot.

          • Oboehner

            Ok there exploding dot boy.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Not a religion. Not even a word.

          • Bezukhov

            If students don’t have to participate, then what’s the whole point of this dog and pony show?

          • Oboehner

            Butthurt atheists.

          • Bezukhov

            What is it trying to prove?

            I’m a devout Agnostic.

          • Oboehner

            A devout undecided, ok.

          • Bezukhov

            Answer the point.

      • Ambulance Chaser

        No, but the fact that it violates Santa Fe ISD v. Doe does.

        • Oboehner

          That’s good for Santa Fe, since the courts cannot legislate, what does that have to do with anyone else?

          • Ambulance Chaser

            It’s a Supreme Court ruling. It applies nationwide, no matter how many times you step your foot and insist otherwise.

          • Oboehner

            It’s a single case Supreme Court opinion. They cannot legislate, no matter how many times you step your foot and insist otherwise.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            They didn’t legislate, they made no new law. They declared something unconstitutional. That’s part of what the Supreme Court is FOR.

          • Oboehner

            In a single case, what does that have to do with me? After all the Supreme Court’s job is to review new legislation from Congress.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Yeah, it is, and they have the power to rule that that legislation is unconstitutional, if so. And, that’s not limited to new legislation either. I just get annoyed at people who say a Supreme Court decision is “making a new law” when it’s not. And court decisions do typically set precedent, so one case can often have an impact on future cases….

          • Oboehner

            If it’s not a new law, then it doesn’t pertain to me.
            Does precedent come is an extra soft double roll?

          • TheKingOfRhye

            If a law is ruled unconstitutional, it no longer applies, so yeah it pertains to anyone it would normally pertain to.

          • Oboehner

            A law struck down relieves responsibility, it does not add.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            They aren’t “legislating.” They are, however, making binding decisions that are being followed all across America. Or had you not noticed that that was happening?

          • Oboehner

            So what is the difference between legislating and “binding decisions” (which aren’t)?

          • Ambulance Chaser

            A court can strike down a law, but they can’t pass a new one. Also, a court can’t take up any issue it feels like hearing. It can only rule on an actual controversy presented to it.

          • Oboehner

            The Supreme Court to congressional laws, and state courts to state laws with a Supreme Court override if the state law interferes with another state.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Huh? Is that supposed to be English?

          • Oboehner

            Do I need the crayons?

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Apparently.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Are you aware you’re arguing with a lawyer?

          • Oboehner

            The point?

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Just…why would you, when he’s an expert?

          • Oboehner

            An “expert” at being wrong, lawyers are trained in precedence, not so much in the Constitution – obviously. Try and get passed the authority worship and see things for yourself once.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            How interesting. I am guessing you likewise have no need of airline pilots when you travel as well, since your expertise trumps theirs.

          • Oboehner

            Not in need of airline pilots with training on Cessnas when they are trying to fly a jumbo jet.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Which you have greater knowledge of than they do. Amazing.

          • Oboehner

            More authority worship.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            No, I just want my plane to be piloted by a man who’s been trained to do so. I don’t worship the pilot, but I do trust him to be knowledgeable about the field he’s been educated in.

          • Oboehner

            “No, I just want my plane to be piloted by a man who’s been trained to do so.”
            “Not in need of airline pilots with training on Cessnas when they are trying to fly a jumbo jet.”

          • Jenny Ondioline

            And you know the difference, and can fly both.

            All I’m saying is that if you want me to name a profession that is going to be the most familiar with the constitution, “lawyer” is probably going to be #1 and “religious fundamentalist” is going to be considerably further down the list.

          • Oboehner

            Lawyers are taught precedence over constitutional law.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Being a lawyer yourself, you’d know that?

          • Oboehner

            It ain’t rocket science.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            No, which is why people study for years to become a lawyer.

          • Oboehner

            Follow the money.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            So another conspiracy theory?

          • Oboehner

            Greed is a conspiracy theory now? All layers are taught is court precedence, I’ve had multiple layers tell me that.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            If that was true there would be no need for them. I think you know there IS need for them, in areas as wide-ranging as civil law, criminal law, land & zoning, martial law, labor law, and oh, probably a couple HUNDRED other things.

          • Oboehner

            A countryman between two lawyers is like a fish between two cats. – Benjamin Franklin

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Even if you think a lawyer serves no purpose it doesn’t do you any favors to pretend to know law better than one who has studied it.

          • Oboehner

            It doesn’t do you any favors to pretend to know what I have studied.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            I think the issue here is more what you failed to study. But no, you cannot out-lawyer someone when you are not a lawyer yourself.

          • Oboehner

            Perhaps if I just alluded to rumors of facts like you do, that would be better?

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Oh, do you mean such common rumors as settled science?

          • Oboehner

            10 out of 10 pedophiles agree…

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Oh, did you ask them?

        • Jason Todd

          The ruling is unconstitutional as it blatantly violates the First Amendment.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            There is no such thing as an unconstitutional Supreme Court ruling. Art. III, Sec 2 of the US Comstitution empowers the Supreme Court to be the final say on what is and is not constitutional.

      • johndoe

        Keep that in mind when talking about florists and bakers

        • Oboehner

          I can post the section, can you?

      • maam2u

        that particular court seems to have been rather illiterate. since they didn’t know the difference between “establish” (verb) and “establishment” (noun).

      • Croquet_Player

        Indeed it does not. Which is why anyone who is unclear on the issue should review years of court decisions available online and learn why organized prayer (by school officials, not students, who may pray or not, as they wish) is illegal in public schools. See: Engel v. Vitale (1962) and Abington School District v. Schempp (1963).

        • Oboehner

          Single case opinions, not law.

          • Croquet_Player

            Please don’t take my word for it, go see a lawyer and ask them to explain it to you. And then ask yourself why some people insist on wasting taxpayer dollars over, and over, and over again on these perennial loser cases. It’s your money too. I don’t know about you, but I can think of a lot more worthwhile things to spend taxpayer dollars and human time and effort investments on. Or even better, don’t spend it in the first place.

          • Oboehner

            The ignorance of people doesn’t make law either.

          • Croquet_Player

            Organized prayer at school by public school officials is illegal. That’s a fact. One which apparently you are unable to get your head around.

          • Oboehner

            It’s a fact because you say so right? Pffft.

          • Croquet_Player

            No, it’s because the courts say so, and it’s documented in the decisions I cited, which you don’t seem to want to bother to read.

          • Oboehner

            You mean the courts who issue an OPINION on a single case basis because they cannot legislate?

          • Croquet_Player

            Your failure to understand how the courts operate and the role of legal legal precedent is your problem, not mine. As I said, go ask a lawyer. Because you clearly don’t get it.

          • Oboehner

            Since courts cannot legislate, what do legal precedents have to do with me other than replacing the Sears catalog in the outhouse?

          • Croquet_Player

            Break the law and find out. Or, more sensibly, ask a lawyer to explain it to you.

          • Oboehner

            The Constitution does just fine.

  • SFBruce

    For anyone who truly believes in freedom of conscience, this is a terrible idea.

    “A teacher employed by a public school district may express a religious viewpoint, and also may conduct or participate in any student-led prayer or student-organized prayer groups, religious clubs, or other religious gatherings organized by students of a public school pursuant to Section 59-1-435, Section 59-1-441, or Section 59-1-442, or another provision of law.”

    To begin with, it’s written very badly. How in the world can a teacher conduct an activity which is student led? And does South Carolina really want it’s public school teachers expressing a religious viewpoint? Remember, while there’s a good chance that teacher is Christian, he of she could also be Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, or an atheist. Schools certainly have an obligation to create an atmosphere that encourages mutual respect, but they also have a responsibility to be utterly neutral when it comes to matters of faith.

    • jscotttheory

      In the vein of equal access, I could demand time and space devoted to JR “Bob” Dobbs and the Church of the Subgenius.

    • maam2u

      teachers need to facilitate and supervise, maybe they should use those words as well. kids need to not be left alone in rooms for one thing. and they are unable to do large scale activities, using school devices or resources, without the help of staff.

  • Darren H

    The Founders were considerably more comfortable with prayer on public property than the anti-Christian bigots of today. Of course, the Founders were in favor of freedom, not tyranny, so they would feel totally out of their element in this tyranny of the squeaky wheels. No wonder so many atheists are single males, it’s difficult to imagine two pathological haters finding much pleasure in each other’s company.

    • jscotttheory

      I’m sure you know nothing about “the founders” But, you are correct, they were not in favor of religious tyranny…As in, keep your God out of the government.

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        USA is nothing apart from Christianity as man is nothing apart from his conscience. Americans learned everything useful from the Christian British and should stay humble before God.

        • johndoe

          Ummmm no they didnt. The original christians slaughtered and enslaved the natives.

          • maam2u

            um, no. That was the Catholic Spanish/ portuguese. NOT the British Christians. Are you from mexico or something?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            British Christians were the best!

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Catholics are Christians.

      • maam2u

        they NEVER said to keep God out of the government, that is a severe misinterpretation and mis-application of the constitution.
        On the other hand, most of them DID say that CHRISTIANITY in particular, (NOT catholicism), is PARAMOUNT AND NECESSARY in the whole people, in order to even have a successful government such as the one they were creating. OTHERWISE IT WOULD FAIL.
        One of them even said (washington i believe) that, WE HAVE NO HUMAN KING BECAUSE CHRIST IS OUR KING. and THAT is why he refused to be crowned king, and chose instead, to be merely the 2nd in command UNDER CHRIST, that is, PRESIDENT.

        • jscotttheory

          Do you have actual citations for your ridiculous ideas? Probably just what you were told in your Sunday School brainwashings. No gods and no kings!

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            White men did not know any other gods but only Jesus Christ. Read America’s Declaration of Independence. It says Americans only submit to God. The national documents are that way in all British colonies. Mayflower Compact created the USA. Americans are mere hedonists if they have no Christianity.

          • jscotttheory

            Cite one reference to Jesus in the Declaration of Independence…You can’t, not there.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Read it; it says “under God.” Americans know no God other than Jesus Christ. European trbes of Americans either serve Jesus or adhere hedonism.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            No, God does NOT mean Jesus exclusively. Other faiths would disagree strongly, and even supposed Christians such as Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t believe Jesus is God.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Most Americans were Protestant Christian. Others came under their cover.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Look up what Thomas Jefferson thought about Jesus and Christianity.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            He got education from the Christian British and respected Christianity, and that’s why he was decent. Americans invented not a thought. Because you guys are ungrateful towards the Christian British or your own parents, people are not grateful to you though your homeland rescued so many nations. Ingratitude returns to the ungrateful rotten descendants, you know. You Westerners are good and do not worship hedonism only when you adhere Christianity. Americans need Christianity to be decent.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

            -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            But Christianity rescued countless billions of humans. The Church was not perfect, but she alone educated every Earthling to be healthy and civilized and brought God’s truth, charity, literacy, longevity, lawfulness, civility, and the meaning of life. The West is nothing apart from Christianity, as a man is nothing apart from his conscience and education and his parents. Secular Americans don’t know much about the Planet Earth because they’ve been always only protected by the superb Protestant Church’s goodness. You well-fed hedonistic descendants should not slander the honest hard-working Christian pioneers of America.

          • maam2u

            well, he was deficient in his theology, and not one of the better founding fathers at all. . He is not differentiating the abusive catholic church mafia and medieval royals from actual spiritual REAL christianity itself. Which is the best influence over all humans and societies. it changed europe from pagan human sacrificers , slavers , polygamists, etc, into a far more kind and merciful society.

      • Jason Todd

        You have no idea what you are talking about.

        • jscotttheory

          The university that conferred my PhD in Political Science may beg to differ.

    • johndoe

      Brilliant. This atheist is married with children. We’re also not anti christian.

      • Neal D

        No way

        • johndoe

          Yup.

      • jscotttheory

        Married for 30 years, children and grandchildren. Agnostic not anti christian, but please don’t shove it down my throat.

        • johndoe

          Im not. Definitely not anti christian. Just anti azsteve53

    • Ambulance Chaser

      If the founders were such big fans of freedom, why didn’t they give women and blacks the right to vote nationwide?

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        Women and colored were not that educated yet. Husband and wife hardly disagreed on politics anyway. Stuff came in order. Today’s American men place women and children in danger by putting pervs in restrooms. Your generation is a real unthinkable shame to all of the American Founding Fathers.

        • johndoe

          Quit insulting Americans by calling them colored. Children arent endanger of being arou d homosexuals but they are in danger of religious indoctrination being around people like yourself.

          • maam2u

            oh yeah right, i suppose it’s christians who are constantly entering restrooms to molest women and kids. NOT. but it is your kind, who think they are unaccountable and have no fear of God.
            restroom rape is the 3rd most common kind.

          • jscotttheory

            More made up statistics, AKA lies.

          • johndoe

            Most molestors are straight white males who know their victims.

          • Croquet_Player

            Everyone who brings up pedophilia in regard to gay people invariably overlooks two critical facts. 1) Pedophilia occurs in the gay population and the straight population at identical rates. Being gay or straight makes you no more or less likely to be a pedophile. 2) The overwhelming incidence of pedophilia is older men, preying upon underage girls. If these people are so concerned about pedophilia, (as we all should be) then why ignore the elephant in the room? The vast majority of pedophiles are straight, married men.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Endorsement of homosexuality brings sex with anyone or anything as seen in the Post-christian immoral West and its slave nations. Leviticus ch.18-20. Same-sex members are for friendship only. No Christianity means no morality.

        • jscotttheory

          You find no “unthinkable shame” in the founder that was the father of the children of one of his slaves? Double standard much?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            White men did not rape colored slaves much comparing to the slave owners who are colored. Anything is better than death by starvation. Today’s Americans do not know the real pain on Planet Earth because you guys have been well-fed and spoiled by the most excellent churches.

          • jscotttheory

            Thomas Jefferson fathered children with a slave and not married to her. I suspect black slaves would have been quite happy to stay in their native country rather than brought to the Western Hemisphere.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            He fed them and provided them unlike modern playboys. No pagans were happy on Planet Earth. You watched too many junk American cartoon movies. Secular godless Westerners wish all the colored would stay illiterate forever so that they could dominate the world, but the white Christians provided everone on earth literacy and medicine so that everyone could have education and freedom. Study US history properly. Men does not become a slave to Western Sodomites as long as he reads the Holy Bible.

          • maam2u

            well dear, then you see the value of christianizing a whole society. but our country doesn’t feed and house all its poor at all, so much work is still to be done. we are only partially christianized.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Yes, we all stil need evangelism and Christian charity and ministries everywhere.

          • Jason Todd

            Irrelevant much?

          • jscotttheory

            Wow, what an amazingly articulate and well reasoned response. Thank-you for showing me the way…Praise Bob Dobbs, I have seen the light.

        • Croquet_Player

          “Women and colored were not that educated yet.” I’m sorry, but this is entirely untrue. And even if it were true, which it isn’t, it is meaningless. American citizens may vote, regardless of their level of education. Oh yes, racist people have certainly tried to make “literacy tests” a prerequisite to voting rights (a test which I assure you hardly anyone, including you, could pass today) but they have failed, and quite rightly so.

          “Husband and wife hardly disagreed on politics anyway.” This is a total fantasy. Entirely untrue. One need only read the wonderful letters between Abigail and John Adams (founding father), to see it isn’t so. Or read any of the other many collections of letters between American husbands and wives (or English, before the founding) in the hundred or so years both before and after the founding of the country, which number in the thousands and which are preserved in places like The Smithsonian Museum and other institutions and libraries. Spouses often had strong disagreements, often pertaining to the property rights of women and children. Grace, you may believe what you like, but you may not make up stories out of whole cloth and present them as fact. You would do well to research early American history, particularly original documents, like letters. I think you would enjoy it, and gain a new perspective on the country you and I admire so much.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            My point is that things don’t come all at once. For example, your tribe is no longer gun-fighting against other tribes such as the French on the American soil. It’s just today’s West is going backwards and villainish by prohibiting Christianity and forces abnormal immorality upon everyone in the Christian nation created by Christians for Christian happiness.

          • Croquet_Player

            I honestly have no idea what you mean when you say “my tribe”. I am not a member of a tribe. When you say “And no man was girlish like today at that time, either.” that is also simply untrue. There are documented historical records of men who dress like women, and vice versa, dating as far back as Greek civilization. You really have no idea what you’re talking about, and you’re making statements with no basis whatsoever in fact.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            I thought you were a descendant of the British tribe, seeing your favorite sport. Girlish men were not prominent like today; no English men of yesteryears placed pervs in women’s restrooms to endanger women and children. You just think it’s amusing because you don’t care about women and children’s safety as a man should. Too many Westernized women are non-virgin exposurists nowadays, I admit, but you still have to protect women and children as your forefathers did.

          • Croquet_Player

            Grace, this could be a valuable lesson for you. Here’s the lesson: you should stop making assumptions, because in your comments, you’ve gotten numerous things flat-out wrong. First of all, as best we know from the limited documents available, croquet originated in Ireland, not England. It was popularized in England. Second, Americans have been playing croquet for well over 100 years. I am an American, of English and Irish descent. I am neither proud of, nor ashamed of my heritage, and I am not a member of any tribe. I am certainly proud of individual family members who have behaved honorably and are documented in American history, but I had nothing to do with them, and can take no credit. (And if they had behaved badly I couldn’t take any blame either. These people died long before I was born. It’s an interesting family history fact, nothing more.) Third, croquet is a game, not a sport. Fourth, you claim “Girlish men were not prominent like today”. This is simply false, and any honest and thorough review of the last 3,000 years of social history will confirm this. Fifth, you claim “You just think it’s amusing because you don’t care about women and children’s safety as a man should.” I care about everyone’s safety, and in no way do I find assault, sexual or otherwise, in the least bit “amusing”. Public safety is an important issue, for men and women, children and adults, young and old. Which is why we should look at statistics and evidence, to develop a clear picture of how and where assault is happening, in order to prevent it. There is simply no evidence that transgender people assault others in bathrooms. This is a wholly fabricated myth, created to cause fear about transgender people. The overwhelming amount of sexual assault is committed by straight men, against girls and women. So if you’re concerned about sexual assault, as I am, you should be concerned about straight men who are sexual predators. Sixth, it appears you have assumed I am a man. I am not. In future, I would suggest before you assume something, you should simply ask.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Make your comment shorter or fragmented. Too long with no blank lines. Start again, by coming up with one or a few points instead of six. Here is the summary: what is obvious is obvious regardless all your false excuses. And simply tell me that you are a woman if you are. If you are a transgender, birth gender is the only correct gender for you. Don’t make others hold a falsehood about yourself. We should speak against men’s presence in women’s restrooms.

          • Croquet_Player

            Your failure to comprehend clearly written English is your problem, not mine. And you’ve made yet another error – assuming I’m transgender. Your statements are riddled with baseless assumptions and factual errors. I’ve only pointed out a few.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            No, you need to break your writing into paragraphs when it’s too long. A common sense. Do your own work; don’t make other people work for you. I didn’t make such assumption. Please read things correctly.

          • Croquet_Player

            This is a casual comments section, not an academic essay. Attempting to quibble about paragraph length (particularly when you have grammatical errors in yours) does not change the fact that you have made numerous erroneous assumptions.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            There are reasons for regulations on academic essay. I’m free to refuse to read your time-waster when you make reading too difficult. And monolinguals should never look down the ESL people, either.

          • Croquet_Player

            Yes there are reasons for regulation of academic essays, and they do not apply here, as I pointed out. And what makes you think I’m monolingual? I speak two languages. Another erroneous assumption on your part. And you reserve the right to critique other people’s writing, but no one may point out errors in yours? Good luck with that.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Multi-linguals do not insult the ESL people, but you do. You must break down your writing into paragraphs to make it readable, and it does not require any advanced skill. Do your work.

          • Croquet_Player

            I did not insult you. I pointed out that it’s a bit much to attempt to critique other people’s comments from a writing perspective when you make errors yourself. You want to have it both ways. A typical “Do as I say, not as I do” attitude. If you want to critique writing by others fine, then you must be prepared to accept critiques of your own writing, and you don’t get to fall back on ESL. And furthermore, none if it matters in relationship to more the important factual errors you have made.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Yes, you insult ESL people knowingly and that’s why I concluded you are a mono-lingual. If you want others to read your comments, make it easier by doing your best. I do. Cut your long writing into at least 4 paragraphs; or I conclude that you just want me not to read it. You started replying to me and what I asked you is a single thing. Your false opinions are yours alone. Concern about your soul; be serious and read the Gospel of John so you could find life.

          • Croquet_Player

            I’m not editing my remarks to suit you. Deal with it. I’ve read the bible, thanks.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You didn’t read the Holy Bible. Stop bullying the foreigners in the land.

          • Croquet_Player

            I read my family’s late 1800’s King James edition bible from cover to cover. It was quite a feat too, because the book is enormous. (Lovely illustrations from engravings, I might add.) I couldn’t hold it comfortably, it had to sit on the desk propped up in front of me. So kindly stop making things up which you know absolutely nothing about. It’s a bad habit. No one is bullying you, nor have I said a single word about your ethnicity, whatever it is, which I know nothing at all about to even comment on. You are simply being held accountable for factual errors in your own statements. Big difference.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You only remember pictures but no words from your late 1800’s King James edition Hoily Bible. Therefore it is same as not-reading. You would never have talked the way you talked if you remember anything from reading the Holy Bible. You are here to bully the Christians. USA is listed as a persecutor against Christians this year.

          • Croquet_Player

            This has to be one of the most ridiculous comments you’ve made so far. You simply can’t deal with the fact that I’ve read the bible. So you make up your own little fake fantasy. Well, I have read it. Tough luck for you. And since 91% of the U.S. Congress are Christian, it’s clear that Christians are not “persecuted” in the U.S. Another one of your delusional notions.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You show no evidence that you have read the Holy Bible. Therefore, your claim is invalid. Sodomy-supporting baby-killing Americans are mere hedonists and merchants and are no Christian of any kind, whatever they claim to be. USA became a human rights abuser because the nation lost Christianity. To support infanticide and chaotic immorality at that. No man would say the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is a fiction. Today’s USA became just like them inspite of her noble Christian birth and upbringing. Human history’s gravest tragedy next to ancient Israel’s betrayal to the Lord. Sad. Your only hope is the true Christians stil living in your land. May God bring His holy justice upon the world.

          • Croquet_Player

            What “evidence” could possibly be offered for a personal claim on a comments section? I’ve read the bible, you don’t believe me, that’s your problem.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You show no evidence that you’ve read the Holy Bible. You lied about my religion; I choose to disbelieve in your lie that you told me.

          • Croquet_Player

            I haven’t lied about anything. You just don’t like hearing things that don’t fit your narrow world view, so you claim it’s a “lie”. Go right ahead, believe whatever you like, but you’re mistaken.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are the one who insist you don’t need to read the Holy Bible. Those who truly read it never think that way. It’s a dictionary-thick book that saved and blessed countless billions of people all over the world, beating up all the slave owners including the present-day filthy Western pervs. The entire Western civilization including USA is nothing comparing to the Holy Bible. Read it again even if you falsely think you’ve read it before.

          • Croquet_Player

            Grace, dear, this is getting tedious. I have read the bible, all of it, and some of it more than once or twice. I’m not going to read it again for you, and you’ll just have to live with that, and if you don’t believe me, that’s up to you and I couldn’t care less. Have a nice day.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Child, why do you insist of having read something which you cannot discuss on any of its content? Please repent of your sins and accept the Saviour Jesus and return to your Creator God, as you should.

            “If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, ‘Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.’ …The same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For ‘whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.'” (Romans chapter 10)

          • Croquet_Player

            Don’t be patronizing, I’m not a child, I’m 53. I’m not interested in discussing the bible with you, and as I said, I don’t care if you believe that I’ve read it or not. I think it’s important for people to have at least a passing familiarity with it, insofar as its historical significance. Beyond that, further interest is up to the individual. You appear to be obsessed with it. If that’s what you enjoy, good for you. Your telling me to read it or quoting passages is pointless, as I have no further interest.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You must take interest in the most important thing. It is God’s truth and your life. Please change your mind and read the Holy Bible and find Jesus as your Saviour and Lord. Nothing is more important and crucial to all. Because you are regularily here, you must have some interest in the truth. Cherish your soul and admit God’s truth. Jesus is the Way and the Truth and the Life. (John chapter 14)

          • Croquet_Player

            Oh “must” I? And who’s going to make me? Grace, you live in a world where not everyone shares your beliefs. You’ll have to come to terms with that at some point. You may attempt to tell other people what to do all you like, but just as you would not appreciate being told what to do, please consider that others don’t either. If I want religious advice or instruction, from you or anyone else, I’ll ask for it. And for the umpteenth time, I have already read the bible.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Your problem is you don’t care about the vital truth that can save your soul but are only interested in beating the Christians in discussion. Listen to the Christians when we tell you what to do because we are right. Did I tell you to clean up your room or something? I just told you to read the Word of God. Truth is far more important than freedom to do wrong. I’m talking on your level because you grew up in a false culture. Wake up. As I said, you show no evidence of having read the Holy Bible.

          • Croquet_Player

            You can tell me what to do all you like, and it’s never, ever, going to work. Get used to it.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Please change your mind. Please. Please say sorry to God and return to Him and receive life from Him. Ask Him to help you with humbleness. Why are you here unless you desire to meet Christians God’s people? You know God is right, deep in your heart. Christians are the only humans who care for you unconditionally because God loves you. You just must repent of your sin and give it up and trust in Jesus, calling upon His name, to get saved.

            The Word of God says: “Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion. …Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called ‘Today,’ lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.” ( Hebrews chapter 3)

          • Croquet_Player

            Oh, it’s “please” now, is it? How nice that you have suddenly opted for a more well-mannered approach, instead of your former “you must” tactic. While it’s certainly an improvement, my response remains, “No thank you.”

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            I felt you will not blaspheme. Non-blaspheming Westerners are a thing of rare gems nowadays. Secular Westerners must stop blaspheming; then God will restore respect and safety in the West. The Muslims respected you when you adhered Christianity and were dressed up properly though you guys were openly racist back then. No one respects blaspheming nudist pervs who disrespect their own parents. You still need to repent of unbelief to get saved; the fact does not change.

          • Croquet_Player

            Still no thanks, Grace, have a nice day. I think we’re done here.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Please be reconciled to God by repentance. You need salvation. “We then, as workers together with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain. For He says: ‘In an acceptable time I have heard you, and in the day of salvation I have helped you.’ Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.” ( I Corinthians chapter 6)

          • Croquet_Player

            You need to stop proselytizing to people who have made it clear they’re not interested.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are not an abused illiterate poor pagan. Secular Westerners must be told to respect their parents, not just to believe in Jesus Christ.

          • Croquet_Player

            You should try to understand that American citizens like me have a right to their own views. (Frankly, I think everyone does, but alas, we still have some theocracies around the world.) I am not trying to proselytize to you. You are welcome to you own beliefs, and I support your right to hold them. And yet you persist in trying to proselytize to me, despite the fact that I’ve said, “No, thank you.” Can you please just give it a rest? (Also, parents worthy of respect get it because they earn it. There are plenty of dreadful parents too, who, despite what religious texts instruct, are not worthy of any respect whatsoever. )

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            USA is a Christian theocracy. You do not evangelize me only because you have no good news for me. Christians have the vital Good News for you and everyone that saves life. Christians are not indifferent to fellow humans. Secularists never leave Christians alone. They blaspheme and bully the Christians in the land created by the Christians for Christian happiness. You are wrong. Every parent must be honored by children. God commanded it. Some respects are God-ordained such as parents, older people, pastors, and men.

          • Croquet_Player

            “USA is a Christian theocracy.” No Grace, it most certainly is not. That is a flat-out lie. We are a constitutional republic, operating under democratic principles. The founders where quite explicit about this. Don’t be a liar. Your religion forbids it, not that it seems to stop anyone from doing it.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Christianity has been the sole conscience of the entire Western civilization. You guys are just another case of illiterate savages if America had no Christianity. You stole all the noble ideas from the Holy Bible. The West had only Roman/Greek porn stories as their original. Even the Greeks sought the good and converted to Christianity. Why do you guys deny your own good and noble heritage? Poor your ancestors and forefathers. Stop making filthy money by showing off the Christian buildings. A typical case of rotten kids from a good family.

          • Croquet_Player

            You seem to have strayed very far from off from the point, and at this stage I find your remarks bizarre and alarming. I wish you the very best Grace, for a long life and very good health. This comment thread is over. Best wishes, and goodbye.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Good bye. Please repent of your unbelief and believe in Jesus and obtain eternal life. Read the Gospel of John. Childless West’s rich people are trying to enslave mankind with abnormal immorality instead of racism this century for their warped amusement. Such evil attempts must be opposed by the sensible moral Christians, as always. You guys are being ignorant on your own foundings.

            Mankind cannot submit to rich homosexual pervs after being liberated by the American Christians. Atheists and racists gave enough lessons on hardships to mankind. No more tyranny, be it Nazi Germans or Sodomic Americans. It’s well-fed white Post-christendom that are pushing destructive immorality and funding infanticide and suicide. Prosperity is a woe in Sodom. Enough is enough. The West needs Christianity to be humane.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Please repent of your unbelief and believe in Jesus and obtain eternal life. Read the Gospel of John. Childless West’s rich people are trying to enslave mankind with abnormal immorality instead of racism this century for their warped amusement. Such evil attempts mus be opposed by the sensible moral Christians, as always. You guys are being ignorant on your own foundings.

            Mankind cannot submit to rich homosexual pervs after being liberated by the American Christians. Atheists and racists gave enough lessons on hardships to mankind. No more tyranny, be it Nazi Germans or Sodomic Americans. It’s well-fed white Post-christendom that are pushing destructive immorality and funding infanticide and suicide. Prosperity is a woe in Sodom. Enough is enough. The West needs Christianity to be humane.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” (John chapter 3)

          • maam2u

            Preach it Grace!

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Thank you, maan. I’m sorry I sound harsh in my comments. But the non-believes in the West are spoiled kids. And they only understand the human evils on the terms of slavery and racism, which they are exactly guilty of. Please remember I love the Christian West dearly like my own mother country. I want the unbelieving Westerners to see how evil it is to leave Christianity as it was unthinkably evil for Israel to betray her Lord God.

          • maam2u

            hahaha actually she makes a LOT of sense!

      • Jason Todd

        How is that in any way relevant?

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    A small victory for freedom! Education is with the Judeo-Christian values alone; all others only encouraged mass illiteracy, for the gains of the selected few. Atheism promotes sci-fi and immorality.

    • johndoe

      Atheism promotes no such thing. Our entire educational system is secular. Religion has no place in our educational system.

      • Jason Todd

        Wait. Atheism can be taught but the Bible et al cannot? Why not? What are you so afraid of?

        • johndoe

          You dont teach disbelief

          • maam2u

            yes, you do. most people are born believing in God,their Creator. It is the family, the world and even school and libraries, media etc which TEACH falsehoods that wrongly alienate kids from God by lying to them about Him.

        • Ambulance Chaser

          No, atheism can’t be taught in school.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Western atheism promotes infanticide and immorality.

    • TheKingOfRhye

      “Atheism promotes sci-fi”???? That’s a new one……and what the heck is wrong with sci-fi?

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        It’s a fiction. Scientists must seek objective truth and only present data and real possible conclusions, not their improbable, baseless fantasies.

        • TheKingOfRhye

          It’s a fiction? Well, yeah, that’s what the “fi” part means, after all. I’m missing something here, obviously…..what are you referring to by “sci-fi” exactly? You see, when you said that, I thought you actually meant “sci-fi”…..silly me…..

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Their imagination that nothingness caused everything over billions of years. Scientific objective observation says that nothingness is nothing and does not cause anything. I’m sorry your 5-billion-old Earth is dying from mankind’s conduct of 50 years. How fast the planet deteriorates, eh? Atheists deny God only so that they could maintain their sinful godless autonomy and for no other reason.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “Atheists deny God only so that they could maintain their sinful godless autonomy and for no other reason.”

            That’s just ridiculous now. You are presuming to speak for ALL atheists? Sorry, you’re wrong. Atheist don’t believe in any gods because they don’t believe in any gods. (not quite the same thing as “denying God” but I guess that point is lost on you)

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            People are born sinners. If anyone chooses to be atheist, he does it to rebel against God willfully and knowingly, and that is evil. Psalm 14.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Wrong again. I am an atheist because I could no longer find any rational reason to believe in the existence of any god. How would someone “willfully and knowingly rebel against” something they don’t believe in? Keep in mind, you only believe in one god, therefore there are many gods you don’t believe in. Are you rebelling against all of them?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Those gods are either non-existent or demons. Why are you in a Christian site, then, and blaspheme? No, you know there is the one true living God and you hate Him and His people because your deeds are evil. The only way for you to have life and be civilized is repentance. Read Psalm 14 and John 3. Find out the universal objective truth. Ex-christian secular West turned only to abnormal evil instead of any decent religion, and that is the mega proof that Christianity alone is right in the entire universe.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            For the umpteenth time, I don’t hate something I regard as fiction. You said yourself “those gods are either non-existent or demons.” (how do you which is which, I wonder) Do you hate the gods you regard as non-existent?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Then why are you here? You have your fellow friends in your atheist sites. Stop bullying the Christians in a Christian site. False religions teach false things one way or another and make massive number of innocent victims. Deciding the right religion is really easy. 1) teaches God’s holiness. 2) has salvation based on God’s love 3) has equality of all persons inculding for unborn children and unconditionally protects life. Only Biblical Christianity satisfies all three, and no other religion or philosophy or ideology does this very minimal thing. Jesus is the Saviour of the world. ( John chapter 4)

          • maam2u

            Grace, i really appreciate your solid stance for God.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Thank you. I grew up thinking all Americans were Christian. Pagans wielding atrocities against the Christians is one thing. It is another to see present-day Americans dishonoring Christianity and shaming their own good parents and their godly ancestors. Bad kids from a good family need scolding from the outsiders. This is also for religious freedom on earth. I can’t imagine being persecuted for being Christian by the West, the former superb Christendom.

  • maam2u

    teachers need to facilitate and supervise, maybe they should use those
    words as well. that could help them get it passed perhaps. kids need to not be left alone in rooms for one thing.
    and they are unable to do large scale activities, using school devices
    or resources, without the help of staff.

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    He is a saint comparing to today’s young men anyway.

  • Worf

    Here we go again…

    Everson v. Board of Education (1947), the U.S. Supreme Court decided the following.
    “The establishment of religion clause means at least this: Neither a state nor the federal government may set up a church. Neither can pass laws that aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion… . ***Neither a state or the federal government may, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa.*** In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect ‘a wall of separation between church and state.’”

    A public school teacher is an agent of the government, and therefor can NOT participate in religious activities while on the job. If they want to pray they can do it at home, on the street, at Wal-Mart, at church, and pretty much any other place they want. They can NOT pray with students while participating in school activities.

    • Polish Bear

      Your opinion, and totally worthless.

      If you hate Christians so much, you should have gone to work on Christmas day, if you have a job.

      • Worf

        Nothing I said was opinion. it was a supreme court ruling. I do work on christmas because I don’t celebrate it and it is just another day to me. And finally, I don’t hate christians. My best friend is a christian. I just don’t want religion being promoted by teachers in public schools.

    • Jason Todd

      And here’s the problem:.

      1) The First Amendment says Congress cannot create its own religion. Christianity existed hundreds of years before the Constitution was even drafted.

      2) Jefferson’s words were taken out of context. They came from a letter to the Danbury Baptists, written in 1802, that actually put forward the idea the church should be protected from the government, not the other way around.

      This is why Everson is unconstitutional.

      • Worf

        The courts would disagree. As long as the rulings are what they are, public school teachers can not participate in religious activities on the job. If you don’t agree, get the rulings overturned.

        How would you feel if it was a muslim teacher was praying with students during school activities? Would that be as acceptable as a christian to you? What about a satanist?

      • TheKingOfRhye

        “The First Amendment says Congress cannot create its own religion.”

        Funny, I’m pretty familiar with the First Amendment, and I don’t remember that….I thought it said “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”…..if you think that just means Congress can’t create a religion, I guess I’m interpreting that differently than you.

      • TheKingOfRhye

        Oh, and if you want more Jefferson quotes about religion and such….

        “But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”

        “Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting “Jesus Christ,” so that it would read “A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;” the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.” (in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom that he wrote)

        “Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.”

        “And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.”

        Doesn’t even sound like a Christian, does he?

      • Ambulance Chaser

        Who adjudged it unconstitutional? You? The Really-Really-Final-We-Mean-It-This-Time Supreme Court?

        • Jason Todd

          HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Ambulance Chaser

            That’s not an answer.

    • Ambulance Chaser

      They can even pray with students in their off time. You’d almost have to TRY to violate the Establishment Clause in order to do it.