Atheist Activist Group Seeks Removal of Cross From Public Park

Photo Credit: KCBD-TV/screenshot

SPUR, Texas — A prominent professing atheist group is seeking the removal of a cross displayed at a public park in Texas as it asserts that the symbol violates the U.S. Constitution.

The Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) sent a letter earlier this year to the mayor of Spur, and then again in October, but did not receive a response to their demand. At issue is a 12-foot cross erected in Swenson Park, which reportedly can be viewed when driving into town.

“The government’s permanent display of a Latin cross on public land is unconstitutional,” the first letter read. “The display of this patently religious symbol on public property confers government endorsement of Christianity, a blatant violation of the Establishment Clause.”

The cited clause reads, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”

FFRF asserts that the cross makes unbelievers feel like outsiders in their community.

“The cross unabashedly created the perception of government endorsement of Christianity,” its letter stated. “The cross has an exclusionary effect, making non-Christian and unbelieving residents of Spur political outsiders.”

It therefore requested that the cross be removed or relocated to private property.

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Officials in the small farming and ranching community are not commenting on the matter, nor have they replied to FFRF, but residents state that most have no issue with the display and find that it brings them comfort and hope.

“We want the cross left there,” Jackie Rumbaugh told the Daily Republic. “We think it is good.”

“I can look right up and see the cross and I know God’s watching me. So I know I’m ok,” Polly Daza told KCBD-TV, adding, “We feel secure with the cross here. It’s part of Spur; it’s part of us.”

“I bet you if I could call everybody in Spur to come and line up behind me, they’d do it,” Frances Blackburn said. “We’re not taking it down.”

FFRF advised earlier this month that it plans to send yet another letter contending that the cross is illegal.

“As long as the cross remains on public property the city is exposing itself to legal liability,” attorney Sam Grover contended. “They’re breaking the law and anyone within the community could sue and win in court.”

In issuing a proclamation calling for a national day of repentance and prayer, President John Adams declared on March 23, 1798, just 11 years after the signing of the U.S. Constitution, “[T]he safety and prosperity of nations ultimately and essentially depend on the protection and the blessing of Almighty God, and the national acknowledgment of this truth is not only an indispensable duty which the people owe to Him, but a duty whose natural influence is favorable to the promotion of that morality and piety without which social happiness can not exist nor the blessings of a free government be enjoyed.”

The following year, in again issuing the proclamation, Adams cited Proverbs 14:34 and Romans 13:3, requesting that Americans pray that God “would make us deeply sensible that ‘righteousness exalteth a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people'” and that “He would bless all magistrates, from the highest to the lowest, give them the true spirit of their station, make them a terror to evildoers and a praise to them that do well.”


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  • bowie1

    Seeing it has wires hanging on it, it could be described not as a cross, but a telephone pole!

    • Amos Moses

      yeah, thats the ticket …….

  • calduncan

    Oh, dear, all those thousands of crosses in Arlington, a federal cemetery.

    Must be a frightening world for these characters, CROSSES all over the place.

    • Amos Moses

      afraid of spontaneous conversion ……….

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        So true!!

    • jim heffner

      “The times they are a changin’.” After years of fighting for our (Military Order Of The Pentacle, ACLU, et al) rights, that we already fought for, we now have the option of Pentacles and Hammers and other non mainstream religious symbols for our grave markers on National Cemeteries. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. There are cities on the West Coast where non Christian populations are increasing rapidly. It could happen anywhere in the country. Do other religions have the right to erect their religious symbols on public property when/if they become the majority?
      Be careful what you stand for, the consequences my not be what you expect. Beware of the tyranny of the majority because the majority can change. Why not put your symbols on private property and stop usurping non believers tax dollars? You could privatize your park and comply with the Constitution.

      • Michael Bagnall

        Personally I have no great need or desire to see Christian or any religious symbols displayed on public property. My issue is the interpretation of the 1st Amendment, it was never intended to protect the government from the Church but the Church from the Government…yet it is used as a bludgeon against the Church by groups like FFRF. While I do not agree with FFRF, they are welcome to their opinion, but they have, on more than one occasion, created problems where none existed…such as in this case. Did someone from the community complain? From the sound of the article, no…so why make it an issue unless you want to rock the boat? For a group of people who say that they just want to be left alone by religion, they seem to find a lot of reasons to engage with it.

        • bumbul

          Michael- A local resident or residents did complain; FFRF only acts on behalf of citizens with standing in such matters.

          • 0pus

            Another henpecked husband. Did she order you to post here? You wouldn’t dare disobey her.

          • bumbul

            Just stated a fact I know as a life member of FFRF – they don’t initiate complaints against municipalities – local citizens do. Your comment is pure trollery.

        • Tracey Townsend

          It is an issue because it’s a violation of the first amendment which exists to keep religion and government completely seperate. Those are the values this country was founded on. Freedom of religion and freedom from religion.

          • Bob

            That is incorrect. Children were taught by the bible in the school classroom a long time ago. The separation of church and state was to keep the state out of the churches business (not vice versa). Of course the devil and his minions must reverse the truth for a lie. No surprise. You can’t change that fact in history about children being that way. It was definitely done. So it was NOT found on that. Have a good day

        • Ambulance Chaser

          Regardless of what the First Amendment was originally intended to be used for, the FFRF bases its policies on the as it stands now.

    • foobar543

      markers on individual graves are allowed to reflect that beliefs of the individual. And not all of them are crosses.

    • Rus Shore

      Have you noticed that Arlington National Cemetery also allows gravestones that represent other religions? That kind of display is very easy to regulate and make fair, so most people would agree that doesn’t constitute a First Amendment violation. It’s very different when you start referring to other public land and the vast variety of possibilities that come into play when you aren’t talking about just simple headstones.

    • Tracey Townsend

      Nice straw man argument. There are tombstones in Arlington that do not have crosses on them. It’s not mandatory. So that would be the difference.

    • Croquet_Player

      Um, no, not at all. There are currently 64 different symbols of faith, no faith, or tribal affiliation approved for use by the military on the headstones of fallen soldiers. Military personnel may select what they like, and no one has a problem with it at all. The issue is when people try to erect religious monuments, to one particular faith or another, on public property. People may erect religious monuments on private property all they like, the only restrictions being local building and construction safety codes.

  • kivlighn

    Allowing a cross does not indicate that Congress made a law respecting establishment of religion. It does show though, the community’s willingness to not “prohibit the free exercise thereof…”. If other religions or even athiests want to erect monuments depicting their beliefs, then the community should devise a submission process and vote on submissions. Inclusive does not mean exclude what already exists.

    • Michael C

      …and vote on submissions.

      This would mean that only members of the majority religion would be permitted “free exercise” of their religious beliefs.

      If a member of a minority religion wished to erect a monument to their religious beliefs on this public land, yet the final decision belonged to the voting majority (who opposed the minority’s personal beliefs), how would you suggest protecting this person’s religious freedoms?

    • Rus Shore

      Sorry, but the Supreme Court (you know…..the experts in this sort of thing) disagrees with you. They determined that by allowing Christian symbols on public land, Congress (in case you didn’t know, in the Constitution, the word “Congress” applies to all government entities below it as well) is making a law respecting the establishment of religion.

  • tatoo

    You will lose the lawsuit. Hope you have the money to pay without having to lay off all your employees.

    • Bob

      They lost in our town. Not afraid of lawsuit. Cross still stands and boy is it a beauty! Our high school students even take their senior pictures next to it 🙂

      • Greg Page

        “FFRF lost in our town.” That’s “lost” in the sense that what the FFRF wanted–no cross on public land–is exactly what happened.

        • Bob

          No, they wanted it completely gone. Too bad so sad (for them)

          • My hovercraft is full of eels

            They wanted it gone from public land, and it is. Ergo the FFRF won, not lost.

      • My hovercraft is full of eels

        Only if you redefine losing utterly as winning.

  • Roy Hobs

    A little town in Washington was forced to remove a nativity scene because of pressure from a group in North Carolina. North Carolina!!! 2000 miles away a group can pressure a small town in Washington State. Citizens of this small town were interviewed and said NOBODY from their community complained.
    This is the Parasitic Nature of the spirit of anti-Christ.
    They hate us………….but can’t live without us. Would love to be a fly on the wall when ((( they ))) get what they want — a world without Christians and a world without White people. What a pit that place will be.

    • Jenny Ondioline

      Where was that nativity scene? You didn’t say. In someone’s yard? No problem. On a schoolyard? Big problem.

      • Roy Hobs

        The spirit of anti-Christ speaks. And gets an ‘upvote’ from another spirit of anti-Christ. On a Christian site no less.

        • Jenny Ondioline

          Yep, by all means, keep avoiding the subject and crank up the name-calling. That makes you look like such a reasonable man.

          • Roy Hobs

            You’ve lost the ability to “think” so what would be the point in having a conversation. I told you that small town in Wa. did not object to the Nativity. You have lost the ability to define words such as “Sovereignty”. So why bother. Now…..go play along at the Huffington Post.

          • Roy Hobs

            Jenny — Do you deny that God came in the flesh? Yes you do. Therefore you are an anti-Christ. Call it name calling if you want.
            Your Muslim comment is just ridiculous. I believe this so therefore I believe that. Stupid argument tactic.

          • Bob

            Roy, you had it right several lines above when you “shook the dust from your feet” with that mud. Move on. Why waste your time with useless fodder. They will be screaming for Him one day soon (to no avail) …so no worries.

          • Roy Hobs

            Thanks Bob. Peace to you.

          • Rus Shore

            Stop with the banality. You call people who happen to disagree with you “useless fodder”. Maybe if you tried to make an educated comment rather than insulting others, we’d have a bit of respect for you, but frankly, you and Roy seem to lack the intellect for it.

          • Bob

            Jeremiah 8:9
            “The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, And what kind of wisdom do they have?
            1 Corinthians 1:20
            Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

          • Rus Shore

            Quoting the Bible is no more useful or a citation of authority than quoting from the Cat in the Hat.

          • Bob

            Said the fool one minute before he died but certainly not one minute after.

          • jim heffner

            Fundies and ‘true believers’ are deliberately obtuse when you explain to them that since we don’t accept their book as divinely inspired it has no weight in arguments with us. Even on a Christian news site they can’t find support for their rigid beliefs. Personally I put a lot more weight in the writings of Joseph Campbell and Carl Gustav Jung on the same subjects.

          • Greg Page

            “I believe this so therefore I believe that. Stupid argument tactic.” Yes, Roy, it is.
            Now think about that for a minute, please. Actually *think* about it.
            [Happy New Year to all, by the way!]

          • Roy Hobs

            Sorry Greg that I didn’t phrase my ‘point’ more clearly. Jenny “deleted” the comment in which I am .illustrating So you have no idea of the ‘context’. She ‘assumed’ my comment meant that I would support Muslims setting a black cube on public property; which is just asinine. Juvenile really. Which is why she ‘deleted it’. There is a name for that kind of tactic. Kin to saying to a person — did you stop beating your wife. Maybe you know the name for such a tactic…… But I appreciate you helping me to ‘think’. Now it is your turn.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            I didn’t delete anything as you’ve been told. Christian News Network deleted my comment…I have no idea why, but they did. Not me. Have you ever tried deleting one of your own comments? Doesn’t work, does it?

          • Jenny Ondioline

            It’s irrelevant whether I believe God came in the flesh. I wouldn’t oppose sound moral teachings no matter where they originated from. If you support a Christian structure on public property but oppose one from another religion, what we have on our hands is called hypocrisy.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            It doesn’t matter than no one objects. Religious displays are not OK when it comes to public property, and it doesn’t matter what your religion is. Still have not read the Huffington Post and it’s still not relevant to this discussion. Go read up on the separation of church and state.

          • Roy Hobs

            Ok…whatever you say.
            Just pointing out to other people who identify themselves as a follower of Christ. You are not my audience. You’ve proven yourself to be a person who rejects Christ. “Shake the Dust from your Feet”

          • Jenny Ondioline

            I DEFY you to point out a single example of me “rejecting Christ”. Just because I point out that public locations are not appropriate for religious displays doesn’t mean I reject Christ.

          • Roy Hobs

            Hard to do when you block your comments

          • Jenny Ondioline

            When I do what? I haven’t blocked anything.

          • M Q

            Someone in that small town in Washington did object to their tax dollars being used to “establish” a religious display. The “pressure” came from locals and the constitution. That constitution is the law even in the state of Washington.

          • Roy Hobs

            Can you provide a link?

          • M Q

            No. But, you did not even name the town, the NC group, the date or give a link for that supposed “pressure”. Washington courts would find that the NC group had no standing in Washington unless they were representing a local (along with some local counsel). That “pressure” can only come from Washington state courts.

            How did you think that a NC group could pressure a Washington state town council? Get real!

          • Roy Hobs

            The story was on my local news station. They interviewed several residents and a member of local government. They said the pressure came from a group in North Carolina. The residents were upset because no one from their community had any problem with the Nativity scene. And it didn’t cost any money for said Nativity. Local volunteers put it up.
            Are you suggesting this was ‘fake news’? LOL.

          • M Q

            Not “fake” news, but probably not well reported. If it was just an out-of-state group, the town might have just ignored them, unless they suddenly felt compelled to follow the constitution. As for “cost”, where did the public land or building (you didn’t say) come from.

            Have you considered that they might be blaming the out-of-state group for local political convenience? That might be easier than defending the constitution?

            As for “no one from their community had any problem with the Nativity scene” how do you know? Did you go door-to-door asking everyone? Did you consider that maybe no one spoke up publicly for fear of religious persecution from their Christian neighbors? Just the sort of thing that the constitution was trying to prevent.

            So what was the name of the town, the name of the out-of-state group, and the year? Or is this just hearsay?

          • Tracey Townsend

            The problem is that it’s a violation of the constitution. It doesn’t matter if the people living in the town were bothered by it or not.

        • Lisa

          Why would she be the “antichrist” simply for wanting separation of church and state. How would you feel if they put a status of Budha there?

    • The Skeptical Chymist

      (((they))) ?

      Please explain your code here, so that everyone will know.

      • Roy Hobs

        Barbara Lerner Spectre will explain it to you.
        See also — Google – Coudenhave-Kalergi

        • The Skeptical Chymist

          Sorry, but I don’t see anything about (((they ))) when I google those names. Could you tell me what this notation means?

          • Greg Page

            Yes: ((( ))) is a notation of the alt-right (and others) for people of Jewish ethnicity.
            Of course, the overwhelming majority of ethnic Jews *are* white people…but let’s not bother Roy’s head by pointing out that little bit of illogic.

          • Roy Hobs

            You might want to read “Who is Esau-Edom” by Charles Weisman. A free PDF exists on line. And…do some more research. Jews do not consider themselves ‘white’. Only when it serves their interest.

          • Greg Page

            Actually, Roy, the Jews who are white (not all are, of course: there are Ethiopian Jews, for instance) consider themselves to be white all the time. See, I would know this because my “research” includes a vital component that some other folks’ research apparently lacks: *knowing* and *talking* with a whole bunch of actual live ethnic Jews(!), including some of my inlaws.

          • Roy Hobs

            From a Theological perspective, they are Edomites, as “Who is Esau-Edom” explains.
            From a non-theological perspective – you may want to read “The 13th Tribe by Arthur Koestler. One thing I know for sure — I am as white as the come and there is no way Israel would grant me citizenship. Israeli citizen ship is not a religious test. It is DNA.

          • Greg Page

            “One thing I know for sure — I am as white as [they] come and there is no way Israel would grant me citizenship.” Correct: you’re not a Jew, and you’re not the child or grandchild of a Jew. Oh, wait…that’s a religious test,isn’t it?
            “Israeli citizenship is not a religious test. It is DNA.” This is laughably wrong: converts to Judaism can gain Israeli citizenship. Look up (I know you’re into research!) the Law of Return.

          • Roy Hobs

            “You are Jews not because of your “religion” (are you even religious?), but because you were born into a tribe/people called the Nation of Israel. You are not “white people” with a “Jewish religion”, you are Jews – members of a people who origniated in Judea, whether you adhere to the laws of the tribe or not.

            From the article: Ashkenazi Jews are not white – Response to Haaretz article

          • BDH

            Jews. He means Jews.

          • The Skeptical Chymist

            Thank you. I thought as much, but wanted to make this anti-Semitic bigotry explicit.

          • BDH

            Yeah, I figured after three days someone had to spell it out. What an unbelievable coward.

          • Roy Hobs

            How is it ‘cowardly’?

          • BDH

            It’s cowardly because instead of just calling the FFRF Jews, you use a code. Then when asked to explain the code, you won’t.

          • Roy Hobs

            Strategic. Read my ‘history’ of comments. Not cowardly.

          • BDH

            Oh, OK. Well, I am sorry for calling you a coward when I should have just called you a Nazi. Is that better?

          • Roy Hobs

            I am not a member of the NSDSAP. Although, you would do well if you would educate yourself as to the subject matter. Read Richard Tedor’s Book — Hitler’s Revolution.
            Better yet — watch Dennis Wise’s documentary — ‘The Greatest Story Never Told.”

          • Roy Hobs

            If calling me a Nazi helps you sleep at night; but just know that this name calling is losing it’s punch. More and more people are waking up to the truth of ww2 history. Makes me ashamed for once being a believer of the lies as well. I never really thought about “why” people are jailed for trying to correct history. So sad. That the truth needs to be protected by law is a lie from the Devil. I naively believed the slogan ”so it never happens again”. What a clever devil Satan is. If you have the courage; you should watch Dennis Wise documentary — The Greatest Story Never Told. Or watch “Hellstorm”. Or read Mein Kampf if you have the intellect. I am not a member of the NSDAP. But if I were a German and this was 1939, I’d proudly become one. If I had been in the States during that time; I would have listened to Henry Ford and Charles Lindbergh.

    • jscotttheory

      “a world without Christians and a world without White people. What a pit that place will be.”

      You should save those comments for the Klan rally.

      • Roy Hobs

        If you are of the Caucasian race…shame on you. Get help.

        • jscotttheory

          I’m of the human race, and don’t identify with Blumenbach’s false classification system.

      • Roy Hobs

        The KKK has a 5 person meeting; the attendees are the following:

        1x Homeland Security Agent
        1x FBI Agent
        1x Southern Poverty Law Center Agent
        1x Anti-Defamation League Agent
        1x Guy who has had enough of Black on White crime and the anti-White agenda and went along to see what it was like

  • Jenny Ondioline

    “Public park”.
    There it is, right in the headline.
    It should not be there.

  • Croquet_Player

    Move it to private property, problem solved. Leave it up, lose a lawsuit and waste taxpayer dollars.

    • Bob

      Leave it up and take on the demonic organization. We did and won!

      • TimCA

        Could you please cite the name of the town you keep referring to?

      • Croquet_Player

        The FFRC is not a “demonic” organization, and it’s ridiculous to suggest it is. You haven’t “won” anything, there hasn’t been a court case yet.

      • Rus Shore

        Won what? Where?

  • Scott Davenport

    Other than free will, is there anything in the Bible that tells us to respect the free exercise of any false religions?? There is but one God, one Jesus, and only one way into Heaven, pretty simple… 🙂

    • TimCA

      Have you ever thought about starting a Christian theocracy somewhere?

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        USA is a Christian theocracy!! The independence document says Americans submit to God alone!! No submission to atheists or Sodomites!!

        • Greg Page

          The Constitution, however–you know, the document that *actually* governs how the USA operates–disagrees with you.

          • David Stoneslinger

            Poor little atheists.
            Other than hating Christians, you got no life at all.
            Sad creatures.

          • jim heffner

            I dislike labels because they stop people from evaluating the thing or person they’re stereotyping. I do my best to dislike all religions equally that feel entitled to impose their will and religion on the rest of us. I don’t hate all Christians, some actually practice their religion, and I have a lot of eclectic interests. Try again, because if you make enough unthinking statements you might get one right.

          • bumbul

            The atheists/agnostics who are commenting here actually have many allies of the Christian faith who also reject any governmental promotion of sectarian religious belief, including crosses on public park land. Disagreement about the hereafter does not mean we can’t agree about what is the proper scope of government.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            US Constitution guarantees free expressions of the Christian religion. Most Americans of yesteryears died as Christians, defending a Christian nation. Removal of the cross is a disgrace to USA. What Western atheists are trying to remove is the Western civilization’s goodness itself. You guys will have to remove the entire Europe/Russia and American continent to erase off Christianity; it will be harder to erase off the evidences of God’s creation in the universe. Futile. You have too many Non-Americans living in USA because white liberals hate the Christian founding of the USA. They are the cause of the nation’s sad condition.

          • jim heffner

            The vast majority of my family arrived on these shores between 1682 and the French and Indian Wars in order to flee religious tyranny, and not to force anyone to believe what they believed. Willie Penn believed that too, he even sent the Witch hunters back to New England with their tails between their legs. You need to check the trends, because the fastest growing religious preference is ‘None’.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Atheists contributed nothing. They just polluted the planet and created North Korea. You guys belong there; atheists worship humans. Americans have been always Protestant Christian. All others are parasites who received Protestant Christian Americans’ goodness and intelligence and hard works.

          • Rus Shore

            I’ve never read so much stupidity as I’ve read in your comments. Atheists have made vast contributions in this country, and many have fought and died for your right to practice your religion hear. Learn of what you speak, you raving id**t.

          • jim heffner

            I was going to stop commenting here and leave this site alone but I can’t let your distorted view of reality stand unchallenged. If you remove the books written by non-believers from our libraries and delete their inventions what kind of world do you think you’d live in? Tom Paine’s “Common Sense” and “The American Crisis” were the foundation of the thought behind the American Revolution and Henry Alva Edison’s inventions are essential to most if not all of modern technology. Because you say something it does not give it substance. ‘Because I say so” is not a valid source. Your views need validation in order to be part of the consensus reality. It sounds like your view of history comes from KKK rallies, Neo-Fascist comic books and right hand threaded wingnut talk radio shows. If you want anyone to take your rants ‘siriusly’ (sic) at least get a handle on what’s fiction and what’s fact like most children do between the ages of 4 and 9. Your avowed beliefs merit a quote from “Catch22”: “That’s not the God I don’t believe in!”

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You should read the Holy Bible and believe in God. Americans never went through the horror of atheism’s reign on earth and are being naive. Americans have been nice and right only because they were Christian or Christian-educated. Christianity has been the sole sane conscience of the Western civilization including USA.

          • jim heffner

            I’ve read the Bible. Have you read the Talmud, the Torah, the Shreemad Bhagavad Gita, the Upinshads, the Tripitakas or any of the worlds other Holy Books? Naivete denotes a lack of understanding or knowledge and if my suspicions about your level of understanding of history are correct fits you much more closely than myself. Try comparing the educational level of those who studied at religiously oriented colleges to those who studied at secular schools. Tell the indigenous people of the world and our own Native Americans about how “nice and right” Christians have treated them. Your view of history is minimal and extremely distorted if you think the behavior of true believers is civilized. Do you have any idea of the number of times the Catholic and Protestant armies marched and raped and pillaged through Europe in the name of the true religion? If you remove the writings, inventions and moral and ethical leadership of the Atheists, Agnostics, Deists, and Theists of the world you wouldn’t need Dante to describe the world you’d live in. If all Christians actually practiced the loving forgiving aspects of their beliefs and did not insist that the rest of us bow down to your dogma it could be a better world. Non-believers have no reason to lie about our way of life while a huge percentage of self stated true believers are hypocrites. With non believers what you see is what you get. Our moral and ethical behavior is not due to fear of the wrath of a Deity but because of reason and experience.
            Your motto should be, “I’ve already made up my mind so don’t confuse me with the facts.” All I can say is, try listening instead of reacting. Trying to argue reasonably with true believers is like getting involved in a land war in Asia. It does no good so don’t bother.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Atheists hate and prohibit the Holy Bible but not others; therefore the Holy Bible alone is the vital truth. You don’t remeber the message in the vital Holy Bible, and it is same as not-reading at all for you.

          • jim heffner

            “The best cure for Christianity is reading the
            Bible.” – Mark Twain

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            ? Christianity is living out the Holy Bible. Non-believers like Mark Twain are not accurate on Christianity.

          • jim heffner

            What a sad dismal world you live in. You deny yourself a huge portion of the world’s art literature and science if you find the work of non believers not worthy of your appreciation. I find your prejudices and dislikes to be contrary to a rich emotional and intellectual life. Try letting go of your preoccupation with your dogma and you can enjoy a loving happy life with or without your religious hangups instead of spouting isolationist hate. Your view of your religion is really contrary to it’s basic message. The big difference between you and the hateful uneducated Mullahs in the sandbox and the ‘stans is you have better access to soap and hot water. They feel the same about the Koran as you do about the Bible and that’s what people are killing themselves and others over. There are a lot of people in the world who actually practice your religion without displaying your hate and intolerance.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            No, it’s the Western civilization that is going wrong by opposing Christianity. Usual business. It was Nazi Germany before; now it’s US Sodom. The world must not submit neither to racists or pervs. Enough atrocities. You Westerners have anything good only when you adhere to Christianity. Admit that.

          • jim heffner

            You’re so persuasive in your lack of logical arguments(that was sarcasm). Exactly how many people do you think you can sway by your dearth of knowledge about history and the state of the world? Because you believe (I’m sure there are a lot of your coreligionists who feel sorry for your ineptness) that your holy book says so is not an adequate argument. You need some basic education before you have any effect on thinking people. I’m beginning to feel like a bully taking advantage of someone as uninformed as you are. You do get points for your stick-to-it attitude. After you’ve mastered English and have the equivalent of at least a high school education try again. If you ever gain a little polish and have anything of substance to say we might do this again.
            I wonder what the record is for the longest Whack-A-Mole game?
            You’re spitting in the ocean. Enough is enough.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Atheism is foolish and evil and only destroys. ( Psalm chapter 14, John chapter 10) You must repent of your sins to get saved. Read John chapter 3.

          • bumbul

            Strawman argument. Nobody is going after your personal belief in reminding a town not to violate its legal obligations to keep church and state separate.

    • Grace Kim Kwon

      Western secularism opposes what is Good(Christianity) and forces what is bad(blasphemy, infanticide, homosexual immorality, etc.). As the result, people including the children lost freedom to live righteously. That’s the problem.

      • Rus Shore

        Keep your mythology and stupidity to yourself please.

  • Bob

    They tried the same thing in our town BUT LOST. Community came together strong. Our town sold a 20 x 20 section where our cross stands in a park to a church for $10. It still stands!!! FFRF is a school yard bully. Our Lord God is bigger than their puny snowflake organization. Have a great day 🙂

    • Michael C

      Our town sold a 20 x 20 section where our cross stands in a park to a church for $10.

      …so, the cross is no longer on public land? Isn’t that exactly what FFRF wanted?

      • Bob

        No, those poor little serpents want it removed completely. It has never moved an inch. It still stands just as beautiful as ever. The land underneath it sold. Case closed, Cross wins 🙂

        • Michael C

          No, it has never moved an inch. It still stands just as beautiful as ever. The land underneath it sold. Case closed, Cross wins 🙂

          It sounds like everyone won. Good for your town and and for FFRF.

        • Rus Shore

          Not in the least. We people who really love the Constitution and everything it stands for want religious symbols off PUBLIC land. If the land where a cross stands can reasonably be made private, then great! Keep the cross! I, for one, don’t give a damn about a cross on a church lawn or in front a private residence, so please don’t speak for me or anyone like me.

        • Ambulance Chaser

          Why do you think they wanted that?

    • Croquet_Player

      If it’s no longer on public property, then there’s no longer an issue. They didn’t lose, the property underneath the structure changed hands. The problem was that it was illegally erected on public property in the first place. I truly don’t understand why some people find this so hard to grasp. The FFRF doesn’t go around trying to remove religious monuments from private property. People may put up religious monuments on private property all they like. As long as they meet building codes and aren’t in danger of falling over and causing injury or property damage, they’re perfectly legal.

      • Greg Page

        And meet zoning ordinances! 😉

      • M Q

        As long as the 20×20 piece of property was sold at fair market value and they are willing to do something similar for any other group that wants to put up such displays. If not, then the government is choosing (“establishing”) a preferred religion and clearly violating the constitution.

        • MarkSebree

          I doubt that $10 was fair market value for a 20’x20′ plot of land.

          • M Q

            Then that would be an illegal public subsidy of religion.

          • Radix

            Sounds like your neighborhood.

          • MarkSebree

            @disqus_a3tqfqGZgd:disqus

            What do you mean? I am reasonably sure that I live in a far better neighborhood than you do. And I always have. I am very sure that a 20’x20′ plot of land costs far more than $10, even without any improvements on it.

    • Tangent002

      You understand that a Buddhist or Hindu temple should legally be able to secure the same deal from the town, yes? Even The Satanic Temple should be able to buy a 20 x 20 parcel of public park land for $10.

      • Bob

        No sir the devil can go to hell….where he belongs….for FREE.

        • daniel

          And to hell with the constitution as well!

        • MarkSebree

          Sorry, but the town has already set the precedence. If they sell a 20’x20′ piece of public property to one religious organization for $10, they have to sell an equivalent 20’x20′ piece of public property to ANY religious organization of ANY religion if they are asked to do so. The First Amendment’s Establishment Clause as expended by the 14th Amendment and ruled on by the US Supreme Court states that the town/city council MUST treat ALL religions, including non-religion, equally. That includes atheists, Muslims, Satanists, Buddhists, various Shamanists, Asturians, and all other religions, not just Christians.

          • Bob

            Sorry that is not the case. This has been settled for almost two years now. All is well

          • MarkSebree

            What has been “settled” is that the town thinks that a 20’x20′ plot of a public park has a “fair market value” of $10 when bought by ANY religious organization. If another, non-Christian religion wants to purchase a similar, or even neighboring, plot of land and the town refuses or charges them in excess of $10, the town could rightly get sued under the Establishment Clause of the US Constitution because the town is showing favoritism towards a particular religion.

            The town government is required by law to treat all religions exactly the same, as well as the non-religious. As long as the town promotes discrimination and religious favoritism, all is most certainly not well.

          • Bob

            The only one causing trouble is the FFRF. We told them exactly where to go. That cross has been around almost 50 years….way before FFRF, the demonic org, was even a thought. If you get up everyday just to cause chaos and discord and lies, then you are of your father the devil. He is here to kill, steal, and destroy. …Not in our town. We kicked him out!
            ~~~~ And yes, all is well 🙂

          • MarkSebree

            Actually, the one causing the problem was the town. The cross was on public land in violation of the US Constitution. Somebody in the town complained to the FFRF and asked their help. The fact that the cross was there before the FFRF was founded is not a sufficient reason for it to remain, especially since the US Constitution predates the cross, and probably the town. And by the way, the FFRF is a secular organization. It is not affiliated with any religion. The FFRF fights for the truth, equality, and the law against mostly religious and theocratic forces that tell lies about the USA and our laws and Constitution, cause discord by their promotion of intolerance and discrimination, and persecution of all those who support the separation of Church and State. The FFRF fights against those who would steal our rights, kill our freedoms, and destroy our country from the inside. You apparently do not care for our liberties, freedoms, or Constitution since you do not want them to apply in your hateful little town.

            And how did you find and “kick out” the person who filed the complaint with the FFRF? Given your attitude and intolerance, I assume that this law abiding citizen asked to remain anonymous to protect himself or herself and his or her family from the hateful persecution, death threats, discrimination, vandalism, slander, libel, and ostracization that “Christians” who have their “privileges” challenged are so rightly known to engage in. You do not “play well with others”, and you cannot stand the fact that everyone and every religion is supposed to be afforded the same rights as you are afforded and your sect is afforded.

            By the way, you cannot kick an imaginary being out of anyplace.

          • Bob

            It’s people like you that have corrupted society. We know who you serve. Move along now.

          • jim heffner

            Even some of your fellow believers have enough sense to understand right from wrong instead of attempting to invoke your archaic entitlements . Try evaluating and thinking about the information presented instead of doing the knee jerk reaction thing. Thinking shouldn’t hurt you too much after you get used to it. Society is going to continue to change just like it always has. King Canute tried to stop the tide using the Divine Right of Kings and he got his feet wet.
            By the way Ozzie and Harriet left the building a long time ago.

          • Bob

            Society may change but The Word of God never will. “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.” Hebrews 13:8

          • Greg Page

            “Society may change but The Word of God never will.” So it’s gonna stick with that “pi equals three” thing (1 Kings 7:23), huh?

          • MarkSebree

            Nobody is bound by your beliefs, and there is no reason why your beliefs should have any say in society, the laws, or anyone else’s life.

          • jim heffner

            It may be hard for you to understand but non believers don’t accept your source material as the word of God or even as having ‘any’ fact. By the way it’s changed with every translation and revision. So you’re just blowing in the wind. Children usually learn the difference between fact and fiction between the ages of 4 to 9.

            I do believe that there is at least some wisdom hidden away in every Holy Book in the world but the above quotation just ain’t some of it.

          • MarkSebree

            Sorry, but I am on the side that is working to improve society by promoting equality, freedom, liberty, education, tolerance, and other positive improvements. The very stuff that you apparently despise.

            You have no idea whom I serve, since you are only referring to your personal imagination rather than reality. You see the world in black and white, where everyone that disagrees with you is automatically wrong (black), and the handful that happen to agree with you are automatically right (white). You are not only blind to the endless shades of grey, but you are also blind to the limitless colors from ultraviolet to infrared. You willfully limit your perception because you cannot seem to handle reality.

          • Tracey Townsend

            I would love to see FFRF find the town and pay $10 for a plot so that they can erect a display of their own! I hope they can do this!

          • MarkSebree

            However, the FFRF is not a religious organization. And I did specify that a religious organization, preferably non-Christian, would need to be the one to test this precedence. However, I am reasonably sure that they would defend that religious organization when they sued the town for treating them differently.

    • an Apple Biter

      So residents of the City lost space in a public park… just to accommodate tender Christians. Nice.

      • Bob

        Actually all the residents wanted the cross so it worked out perfectly. That one cross debacle turned into over 10,000 crosses being distributed throughout the community and in front yards everywhere including neighboring towns AND businesses! As I said before we all came together. Have a great day:)

        • Rus Shore

          No one cares about them being on private property. Good on ya! It’s entirely about public land.

        • bumbul

          If FFRF was involved, I can assure you that NOT all the residents wanted the cross. Somebody in your town gets it about church/state separation and wanted the town to follow the law. Putting it on public property made it everyone’s business, including the ones who knew to complain.

        • Tracey Townsend

          Wow. I always love to watch intelligent people debate the religious. Please explain how it is possible to believe this crap in the year 2017. Religion was invented 2000 years ago as a means to understand the world and how it came to be. Now, we have something called SCIENCE which has given us the answers to the questions religion originally sought to answer. And science makes so much more sense. Talking fish? Women being created from a rib? Are you kidding me with this crap? The definition of delusion is “an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder.” Religion is a delusion and a sign of mental illness. Perhaps you all need to see a psychiatrist and get on some anti-psychotics. Stop it with the delusions and the hallucinations.

          • Bob

            The wicked have always been destitute of the truth — despising it, trampling it, mocking it with disdain. I saw an example of this in The New York Post, as one writer confidently declared, “Science has now replaced faith.” But……. “Who changed the truth of God into a lie . . . For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections” (Romans 1:25-26). “Intelligent” people debating “religious” people is the blind leading the blind. I don’t follow any “religion”. I happen to believe that Jesus it the son of the living God. He said “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” Amen. Have a great day!

          • Tracey Townsend

            Science has replaced faith. Faith doesn’t answer the questions. Faith stops you from asking them in the first place. I would prefer people keep asking and answering the questions so our society can move forward. Jesus isn’t coming back sorry to tell you.

          • Bob

            “Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.”2 peter 3

            “Mockers” as the equivalent of the “scoffers” referred to in Proverbs. Proverbs speaks of those who are simple, naive, and easily led astray due to their youth, thus a lack of knowledge and experience. Some are fools, who are more willfully ignorant and morally stupid. But the scoffer is a hard-core fool, a fool who vehemently opposes truth and wisdom.
            ~~Have an awesome day ~~

          • Roy Hobs

            He may not be coming back (Preterism), but you better hope you don’t meet Him one day. Btw…..did you know you were at a Christian site?

          • Tracey Townsend

            I am certain that I won’t meet him one day. I’ve never seen any proof in my 35 years on this planet that he actually exists. Yet, I’ve seen lots of proof that he doesn’t exist. Sandy hook, kids with bone cancer, loving couples suffering from infertility while drug users have 6 babies of their own, starving kids in Africa. What kind of loving god would do this?

          • Roy Hobs

            I’ve seen lots of proof that he doesn’t exist. Sandy hook, kids with bone cancer, loving couples suffering from infertility while drug users have 6 babies of their own
            Does Evolution explain this?

          • MarkSebree

            So, you are admitting that you are wicked since you despise the truth, mock it with disdain, and seek to trample it.

            Your religion does not have much “truth” in it. It is primarily composed of opinion made by people who did not have any information about how the world really worked.

            The strength of science is that it does not require belief, it is willing to say “we do not have the answer to that yet”, and that it changes as new and better information becomes available. Science will say “here is the evidence supporting our conclusion”, and “go test this yourself”.

            Religion’s weakness is that it requires belief, cannot say “we do not know”, is essentially immutable even in the face of contradicting evidence, and cannot abide by new and better information about the world which contradicts its antiquated writings. That is why religion has almost always opposed science and scientific discovery.

            You make it abundantly clear that you do follow a religion since you are always quoting that religion as your source of argument.

          • Bob

            I hope you change and repent soon because time is almost up. I will pray for you and all others who have rejected the truth of Jesus Christ. I’m being very sincere. Take care

          • MarkSebree

            I have no reason to change and nothing to repent for. You can pray to your imaginary beings all you want, but that will not change reality one iota. Since you have only spouted your opinions and have not presented any objective “truth”, I do not know what you are talking about.

            By the way, logical fallacies do not impress me. You are engaging in an implied appeal to fear, an appeal to antiquity, appeal to popularity, and a few others.

            Your beliefs do not apply to me or anyone else. They apply only to you. Your so-called “truth in Jesus Christ” is nothing more than your personal opinions about your mythological figure. There is not much truth there to be had.

        • an Apple Biter

          Not ALL residents. The park is for everyone, not just xtians. I have zero problem with crosses in people’s yards, but not on government/public property. The 1st Amendment/establishment clause forbids that. ALL of you didn’t come together – just those who think it’s OK to mix government and xtianity (to the exclusion of other beliefs).

          • Bob

            No sir, The constitution stated separation from church and state in that the state stays out of the churches business (not vice versa). How do you think the children were taught back in the day? Hello, the bible was a school book used for teaching!! Thank you! Then the devil and his minions came along and exchanged the truth for a LIE. And here we are today….enmity between the two…just as stated per the bible. Its really amazing to find so many of you scared of the cross. I guess I would be too if I followed the devil. Oh well. Have a great day!

          • an Apple Biter

            Bullshit. It’s a two-way street. If not, the government would have to accept Islamic, Satanic, Scientology, Buddhist, etc emblems in public spaces. They do not. That’s why we must keep the two separate.
            LOL. The devil is no more real than Yahweh, Baal, Xenu or Spiderman. All have equal proof of their existence. Prove otherwise! If you believe otherwise, you are a fool who requires no evidence – just someone or some book saying something is true.

          • Bob

            So you are saying the bible was not used for teaching in schools a long time ago??? You better check again, because it most certainly was. Explain that one sweetie…
            It doesn’t matter. You won’t change my mind. ever. And you can’t change history either.

          • jim heffner

            Try actually reading history and maybe you can acquire a knowledge of a coherent timeline for religion. Don’t know about you but my ancestors were converted to Christianity by the sword and political duplicity.

          • an Apple Biter

            It’s not used for teaching in public schools NOW. We don’t teach using the Quran or the Satanic Bible either. That’s for very good reason. If you use one, you endorse it and establish it. The 1st Amendment makes that illegal.
            Frankly, if anyone reads the Bible cover-to-cover WITH A CRITICAL EYE, it will probably dissuade them from believing that BS. The God character is a genocidal, authoritarian, rape/slavery-approving jerk. At least the Satan character advocated for free will, knowledge and questioning of arbitrary authority. He’s the real hero of that myth.
            I doubt I can change your mind. No amount of evidence, lack thereof (of God) or reason can change the mind of someone who wants to believe in fairy tales with no evidence of their truth. Believe what you want. Just keep it out of government and schools… same as you would keep Satanism, Scientology and Islam out.

          • Bob

            Oh your absolutely right on that its not taught now…LOOK AT THE KIDS! Enough said. As far as what I believe, we can agree to disagree. I am rock solid in my faith. #rocksolid

          • an Apple Biter

            Because teaching kids from a book that honors genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, stoning people to death for consensual crimes and fabric-mixing, and that the earth is 6000 years old… that’s what kept them good. You have a warped view of cause and effect. Or maybe you prefer kids to live in fear of imaginary eternal torture. That will keep them in line, right?
            Truth is, you could convert me if you had ANY proof of the truth of your Buy-bull or any supernatural acts or beings. I am open to proof and willing to change my mind based on facts and evidence. Are you? Troll.

          • Bob

            LOL oh yes I am a Happy Troll with much peace in my life because I am covered by the blood of Jesus…. oh happy troll am I 🙂 ahhhhh

    • daniel

      Selling city property to a religious institution for less than market value, sounds like another unconstitutional actions. Too bad you guys can’t follow the constitution… Why don’t you move to a Theocracy if you want religion in your government so badly?

  • Papijuanito

    If one religion can do it then all religions can. Even the Satanists and Muslims… Otherwise, take it down! Violation of the 1st Amendment…

    • james blue

      It’s been my experience that more often than not the Christians who want to put Christian displays on public land would rather have no displays than allow non Christian displays. The same goes with prayer to open public meetings.

      Personally I think ten commandment monuments etc. should be on every church ground facing the road. There are far more churches than court houses or capital buildings, yet we simply don’t see the displays there.

      • Greg Page

        James, that actually strikes me as a sound idea. More churches should do exactly that IMHO.

      • bumbul

        A church’s messaging to the public on its own property is fair game and part of living in a free society. No problem.

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    Christians created the USA for people to be freely godly according to the Word of God. The cross should not be removed from the American landsscapes. It reminds all how to live.
    “Thus says the Lord: ‘If you will not listen to Me, to walk in My law which I have set before you, to heed the words of My servants the prophets whom I sent to you… then I will make this house like Shiloh, and will make this city a curse to all the nations of the earth.'” ( Jeremiah chapter 26)

    • Rus Shore

      You are WAY too ignorant of United States history to even debate. We were founded by mostly deists, not Christians, moron.

      • Codfish Ball

        Flagged. You won’t be here long.

        • Rus Shore

          Oh wah…. Can’t handle criticism. Rather than learn real history, you get all caught up in a rather mild insult. Pathetic.

  • Nidalap

    Just like a bevvy of vampires.
    Confront them with a cross and you get a lot of hissing and fang-baring…

    • Rus Shore

      We could care less about the cross. It’s the violation of the First Amendment that we care about…..and you should too.

    • MarkSebree

      You mean Christians when they are confronted by the “cross” of reality and the US Constitution? That certainly sets a lot of them to hissing and baring of their fangs. Also tends to demonstrate their intolerance of other religions and beliefs systems. Check Boca Raton, FL during the past 3 weeks. A Satanic pentacle (point down, which is a different meaning than point up, which the Wiccans and other similar groups use) has been vandalized 8 times since it was erected.

  • Sceptic

    Put
    it in your yard, in your car, in your church, in your heart or tattoo
    it on your forehead, just don’t put it on our stuff. Your religion is
    not our religion. I don’t want your religious symbols represented
    anywhere my tax dollars go. Is that not fair and logical?

    • Gizmo

      Awww, poor widdle crybaby. Have to look at the nasty old crosses.

      Boo hoo hoo. Get some cheese to go with your whine.

      • Tangent002

        Oh please! In an age when Christians are up in arms over being wished ‘Happy Holidays’ instead of ‘Merry Christmas’, calling out someone else for being a ‘crybaby’ looks a lot like the pot calling the kettle black.

        • Gizmo

          Really, “up in arms”? Are these pistols, shotguns, or rifles?

          Post a photo, by all means.

          Oh, you’re just being a left-wing drama queen – “up in arms” means “those Christians that I hate so much are expressing their opinions, and I don’t like that! Mommy, the Christians are upsetting me again! Waaaaaaaaaaah!”

          Silly histrionic fools, the emotions of infants.

          • Rus Shore

            “Awww, poor widdle crybaby” Maybe it’s you who needs to “Post a photo, by all means.”

            Making a logical comment is somehow being a crybaby now? When you finally figure out it has nothing to do with the cross and everything to do with violating the First Amendment, you’ll be a lot smarter.

          • Samuel Scrumpwell

            Coming from someone who apparently believes in a sky fairy.

      • Sceptic

        Life isn’t fair, I get it, but seriously grow up. If that’s the argument they plan to use in court good luck. Is making me pay for something that’s not my religion your idea of religious freedom and liberty? It’s not about hurt feelings, it’s about my money going to your religion. Put the shoe on the other foot, we’ll see who whining then.

    • Tangent002

      Church buildings outnumber public schools three-to-one. In modern suburbia, you can’t drive 300 yards without spying a cross-topped steeple or strip mall church.

      • john doe

        Try to cope, girl.

    • Codfish Ball

      There’s an even better place to put it.

  • Bryan

    Never mind that it’s against the law.

  • Garden of Love

    Atheists’ understanding of the world is simple: If they don’t like it, it’s illegal.
    Prissy old maids have the same mentality. They’re not able to experience pleasure or happines themselves, so they can only take pleasure in taking something away that gives other people pleasure.

    • jim heffner

      I sometimes confuse irony and sarcasm, so would you explain which “Garden of Love” is supposed to be? I love the flexibility of the English language. Christian used to mean loving, caring, forgiving, and turn the other cheek and Heathen used to mean dweller on the heath, country bumpkin, rube, un-hip. Amazing how English words meanings can change.

    • Rus Shore

      LOL….. So now you’re speaking for atheists? Nice. Let me teach you a thing or two about us. We don’t like a lot of things, like the fact that you need a mythological being to run your life, but we aren’t trying to stop you from believing in that mythological being. Let’s be very specific here so you understand exactly what we ARE trying to stop: VIOLATIONS OF THE CONSTITUTION.

      Understand now?

  • Bryan

    Your stupid fucking god gives children cancer.

  • Toller

    Pissing off Muslims and Christians always puts a smile on my face

    • Roy Hobs

      How do you people find sites like this one…….do you go looking for it?

      • Rus Shore

        Maybe we do. Why does that matter? How did YOU find this site, and why does that matter either?

        • Roy Hobs

          Just proving my point.

      • Toller

        I get a packet of story’s from endtimeheadlines every day. I didn’t word that comment correctly.

      • jim heffner

        Believe it or not you can set Google News to show articles on subjects that are of interest to you. It’s not secret or mystical or even a phone tree.

  • tatoo

    During the Middle Ages, the cross was a sign of torture and persecution for many. It still has that meaning for some today. It is like putting up a swastika for some. Disgusting.

    • JustThink

      Look in the other direction.