Atheist Mother Sues West Virginia School System Over Elective ‘Bible in the Schools’ Program

BLUEFIELD, W.V. — An atheist woman whose daughter attends a public elementary school in West Virginia has filed a lawsuit to challenge a more than 75-year-old elective Bible course as she “wishes to raise her child … without religion.”

The Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) filed suit on behalf of the woman, who has chosen to remain anonymous under the name “Jane Doe.” Her daughter Jamie attends an elementary school in Mercer County, and is in kindergarten.

The Mercer County school system offers a “Bible in the Schools” program, which is available on a weekly basis in over a dozen elementary schools and three middle schools.

The course, which is paid for by a non-profit organization, is elective—that is, it is available voluntarily for students who desire to learn about the Bible. The district requires that schools offer an alternative for students who prefer another option.

However, the woman is concerned that because most students choose to attend the classes, her daughter could be ostracized by others if she decides not to join the program, which has been in place since the 1930’s. She feels that her only choices are to expose her daughter to Christianity against her will or risk having her daughter looked down upon by others.

“Jamie will either be forced to attend Bible indoctrination classes against the wishes and conscience of Jane Doe, or Jamie will be the only or one of only a few children who do not participate. Jamie will therefore be made conspicuous by absence, and essentially be identified as a non-Christian or nonbeliever, subjecting Jamie to the risk of ostracism from peers and even school staff,” the suit claims.

FFRF contends that the Bible program violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which mandates that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…”

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“Defendants’ policies, customs, and actions have the effect of advancing and endorsing Christianity over all other religions and religion in general over non-religion,” the legal challenge states. “Defendants’ actions improperly entangle the state in religious matters and beliefs.”

It also asserts that the program violates the woman’s parental rights, as well as her First Amendment rights.

“Forcing Jane Doe to choose between putting her child in a Bible study class or subjecting her child to the risk of ostracism by opting out of the program violates the rights of conscience of Jane and Jamie Doe, and therefore their First Amendment rights,” the suit reads.

FFRF is asking that the court declare the offering of the Bible course unconstitutional and that it place a permanent injunction against the program.

While the school system has not yet commented on the suit, Teresa Russell, data information specialist for Mercer County Schools, reiterated to the Bluefield Daily Telegraph that the weekly class is optional.

“Students are not required to take the course,” she emphasized. “They opt in rather than opting out.”

As previously reported, in 1828, just 52 years after the nation’s founding, Noah Webster, known as the Father of American Scholarship and Education, wrote, “In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government, ought to be instructed. … No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”

Webster, a schoolmaster, wrote the quote in his preface to the nation’s first dictionary, which often cited Christianity and the Bible.


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  • https://disqus.com/home/channel/atheismftw/ Ian Cooper

    Religious classes don’t belong in public schools.

    • Amos Moses

      right ….. the only versions of religion that belong there are all the godless ones ….. and we see the results ………

      • Jason

        …what kind of godless versions of religion are in public schools?

      • Andrew W

        Yeah, you’re typing on the “results”.

    • Jason Todd

      According to whom?

  • David Flynn

    Appeals to tradition, are some of the worst reasons in the world. They keep us stuck in the past.

  • Scott Keasey

    There are thousands of different religions in the world, and in the vast
    majority of cases people follow the dominant faith of the culture they
    were born into. Is it not arrogant and self-centered to think that your
    faith is the “true” one and all the others are false?

    • Amos Moses

      christianity is exclusive …. not inclusive …….. it makes unique claims ………. claims no other “religion” makes ….. and sorry to tell you ….. there is only one truth …. there are not competing versions of the truth …… one only is true ….. and the rest are lies ………… so if you think that somehow that there is more than one truth …. you are gravely mistaken ….. and if you see the truth as arrogant ….. so be it ………..

      • Jason

        “The rest are lies …………” If others believe in a different religion they are not lying 🙂
        how do you know what you believe in is actually true?
        The best way to understand the world and cosmos is to remove biases and study evidences… using the scientific method, of course.

        • Amos Moses

          “If others believe in a different religion they are not lying 🙂 ”

          nope …. they were told lies ….. they believe the lies and then they spread the lies …..

          • Jason

            … 🙂
            Now apply what we learned to your religious views.
            Waiting for the eureka moment. This is going to be great

          • Amos Moses

            the eureka moment will come when you accept scripture as the truth …… there are not competing versions of the truth as i have already said ……..

          • Jason

            Let’s do this. Humor me. Then who? (I got a lot of questions)

          • Amos Moses

            Christ ……..

          • Jason

            Why

          • Amos Moses

            because He came here and said so …….. because it has been recorded ….. we have the testimony …… of numerous witnesses ………. and it was written down ….. it has been preserved as no other writing in history has been preserved ….. no other writing even comes close to the biblical record …. it is not even a close call ……….. and if you choose to doubt it ….. then you must also doubt the entire judicial system that we currently have as it is all built on the same principle ……. witness testimony written down and examined …

          • Jason

            I know many weirdos that said so… with witnesses and testimonies… and records… and followers. Why is your guy different?
            You should doubt (question) everything; it’s healthy:)
            Our laws come morals and laws derive from empathy not doctrine.

          • Amos Moses

            so was it “empathy” that caused the holocaust ……… please tell me about the “empathy” of Hiroshima …….. or … where was “empathy” during …. (not one of them a christian BTW) ……
            Joseph Stalin – 10 and 20 million Soviets and German prisoners of war died under his regime, depending on how many famine victims you count, from Gulags, execution, and forced resettlement.

            Mao Zedong – killed unknown tens of millions of Chinese, most of them in public executions and violent clashes.

            Pol Pot – 2 million Cambodians, or as much as 20% of the population, died from execution, disease and starvation.

            i could go on …… you cannot tell me where our laws and morals came from …. you have no real explanation …..

          • Jason

            It is empathy that guides us to do the right thing and sympathy that shows us the hateful errors of others. I do not kill others because I don’t want others to kill me. If you try to kill me we as a group remove you from our society. Everything you mention was bad and wrong. Still no doctrine needed

          • Amos Moses

            LOL! ……….. WHERE IS THE “EMPATHY” ……… that was the question ………

            “Everything you mention was bad and wrong.”

            Based on what … EXACTLY please ……… on what basis ……. you can not tell me where right and wrong come from so how can you even come to that statement …………..

          • Jason

            Based on my personal right and wrong… derived from empathy, parental and cultural teachings.
            You cannot say I can’t or didn’t state something when I clearly did

          • Amos Moses

            ok …….. so you just make it up as you go “Based on my personal right and wrong” ……… and if you decide one day ….. you have not eaten for two weeks …. and someone has food ….. and you want/need/desire their food …. where is your right and wrong ……… or lets say the other way around …. that you have the food and someone wants/desires/needs your food and they decide “Based on my personal right and wrong” that they deserve yours at the cost of your life ….. where is your right and wrong “Based on my personal right and wrong” …………

          • Jason

            As a collective whole we develop laws to prevent stealing… and murder. This is easy stuff

          • Amos Moses

            as a whole we all steal and murder ………. even you ……. and again …….. does nothing to explain where right and wrong come from …. nor do you have any explanation for why they are wrong to begin with ……… just your opinion ………..

          • Jason

            I murder people!?!? I did not know this 🙂

          • Amos Moses

            to call another a fool ……… is murder …….. it all begins in the mind …… flip a fellow driver the bird …. murder ……… and we all do it ……….. we are all murderers ……

          • Jason

            🙂 your funny. Use that as evidence in a court of law. Your posts are the best

          • Amos Moses

            it is scripture ……….. all murder begins in the mind ….. all crime begins in the mind ….. or are you a “coincidence theorist” ……………

          • Jason

            I know it’s scripture and good thing they do not use scripture as evidence in court rooms.
            Those are my two choices? Think a crime and go to jail or I’m a “coincidence theorist?”
            Define coincidence theorist. That’s a funny term

          • Amos Moses

            Where is the “empathy” ……….

            China ‘places ballistic missiles that can reach the US on border with Russia’ as they say the country must expand its nuclear arsenal in response to Trump’s aggression
            Unconfirmed reports say China has moved ballistic missiles to Russian border
            The weapons have been placed in Heilongjiang province in north eastern China
            The province is closest point in China to the US and on the frontier with Russia
            Comes after China is reportedly boosting nuclear arsenal in response to Trump aggression

          • Jason

            Obviously many people, leaders… and very recent presidents have a lower moral understanding than others. I never said there were no bad people out there 🙂

          • Amos Moses

            LOL! ……….. WHERE IS THE “EMPATHY” ……… that was the question ………

          • Jason

            Where was their empathy and moral compass? Obviously their empathy and sympathy and morals were lacking. We have laws and countermeasures for these type of people.

          • Amos Moses

            there is none …. because that is NOT where morals come from …….. and you still cannot give a good answer to the question of where does “right and wrong” come from …. as your answer is different between every person ………. and every circumstance …..

          • Jason

            “and you still cannot give a good answer to the question of where does “right and wrong” come from”
            I can and I have. *drop the mic* 😉

          • Amos Moses

            nope …….

          • Jason

            What’s funny is that this is not a difficult concept to grasp and I’m not even a subject matter expert. There are physiologists, sociologists, neurologists, biologists, etc. that know way more on the origin and evolution of morals.
            Do I have all the answers? no. Most? No. Enough to understand? Yes.
            Do they have all the answers? No. Most? Many more answers than you and I 🙂

          • Amos Moses

            tell where right and wrong come from ………. you have yet to do it in any coherent manner ……… we are not talking about the answers, which they are not, of “physiologists, sociologists, neurologists, biologists, etc.” ……… we are talking about YOUR answers ….. and you have none ………..

          • Jason

            I said it over and over. My right and wrong comes from my empathy. Easy peezey lemon squeezey 🙂 like I said before, physiologists, sociologists, neurologists, biologists, etc. can explain this in more detail but the general concept is easy to grasp: Don’t kill people because you don’t want to be killed.

          • Amos Moses

            and “empathy” comes from where ………. no …. that is not an answer …… do you have any fossil evidence of “empathy” being created ……….. Tell Me Where The “Empathy” came from ………. YOU CANT ………. it is not an answer … it is an evasion ….. WHERE DOES RIGHT AND WRONG COME FROM ……… “EMPAHTY” IS AN EMOTION ……….. it is not a source of anything ….. especially right and wrong ………….

          • Jason

            Empathy come from evolution. This isn’t getting anywhere and I think it’s because of different understanding of right and wrong. To clear things up I do not believe in objective rights and wrongs. I do not believe in objective morals.

          • Amos Moses

            “Empathy come from evolution.”

            is that science ….. show the evidence …. there is none …. FAIL ……..
            is that theology …. nope …..
            is that personal opinion …. YUP …. and no evidence …. and worthless as such ….

            OH …. and it is a lie ….. emotionalism is not the source of law or morality or objective anything as it is emotionalism ………… FAIL ……………

            “I do not believe in objective morals.”

            so then murder is okay if it fits a persons morals that they made up for their own purpose ….. hmmmmmmmmmm …………… FAIL …………..

          • Jason

            The tone of your post has an upset vibe to it. Take a few deep breaths and calm down.
            There are numerous amounts of evidence for the evolution of empathy… defined the ability to identify with or understand the perspective, experiences, or motivations of another individual and to comprehend and share another individual’s emotional state.
            Emotionalism? Empathy can lead to shared emotions by putting yourself in their shoes, but it’s more of an understanding.

            Is murder ok? No.

            Hope this helps and clears up any confusion

          • Amos Moses

            “The tone of your post has an upset vibe to it. ”

            what does my “tone” have to do with the truth …….. just made up garbage on your part ……… “evidence for the evolution of empathy.” … you have fossil evidence of emotion ……. now you are really spouting malarchy ………… and you have NO evidence of any connection between emotionalism and morality ….. in fact it is almost diametrically opposed to that ……… morality is used to control the emotions …..

            but your explanation seems to be ….. “my “empathy” of feeling sorry for you makes me moral” ………… what a load of hogwash …………. and that is the polite word ……… authority is the basis of law, morality and decides the difference between good and evil ………. NOT emotionalism ………….

          • Jason

            You keep saying emotionalism. Empathy is more of an understanding of how one feels or would feel by putting yourself in their shoes.
            The evidence for the evolution of empathy is not found in bones but in the study of the behavior of other animals.
            “your explanation seems to be ….. ‘my “empathy” of feeling sorry for you makes me moral.'” That is not my explanation… and a pour understanding of what empathy is 🙂

          • Amos Moses

            “Empathy” is emotion and ONLY emotion ………. it is “feeling” …… it is only “feeling” and is not a solid basis for law, morality or anything else of ANY enduring nature …… my “feeling” i want to do harm to you does not make my “feeling” valid to anything and call it moral or lawful ………… FAIL …………………….

            “The evidence for the evolution of empathy is not found in bones but in the study of the behavior of other animals.”

            “animals” do not have empathy ….. the fish does not “fell” bad for the worm ….. the bait does not “feel” bad for the fish ………. there is no such evidence ………. it is all personal OPINION …. the lion does not wake up one day and say “i “feel” sorry for my prey, so i think i will skip breakfast ” ……….. you are talking nonsense …………

          • Jason

            Empathy is an understanding how others feel and/or would feel. Not emotional. It can spark an emotion response but is not needed to be empathetic toward others.

            You are correct, fish do not feel empathy, but many animals do show signs of empathy 🙂

          • Amos Moses

            Yazidi Girls Sold As Sex Slaves For A Pack Of Cigarettes, 7-Year Old Children Bleed To Death While Being Raped By ISIS Militia Multiple Times, While Women In The US March Against Trump Because Their Tampons Are Taxed

            WHERE IS THE EVOLUTIONARY EMPATHY???????????????????

            You know what this is ….. ABSENSE of OBJECTIVE MORALITY ……..

            DUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Jason

            … caaaaaaaalm doooooown
            Bad people do bad things. If you don’t want the band people to do bad things to you or your family, then we must make laws to deter their bad behavior and protect our communities… and help those the best we can that cant help themselves.
            Women marching against Trump is a different discussion 🙂

          • Amos Moses

            where is the EMPATHY ……………………..

          • Jason

            I’m not going to do those bad things because I understand how those bad things affect others (empathy)… I hope you are the same. We create laws to protect us and deter unwanted behavior from those lacking in empathy and morals.

          • Andrew W

            “Scripture is truth”, I bet you won’t prove it. Mark 16:18 says “and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all”. You’re a true believer buddy, drink some deadly poison and report back to us. Remember, don’t use logic or reason, only faith and “true” scripture.

          • Amos Moses

            and again once again ……….. interesting ….. and out of context …………. and devoid of meaning ……….

          • Bezukhov

            Scripture must prove it’s the truth, then maybe I’ll accept it.

          • Amos Moses

            nope … truth is either accepted or rejected ….. it is its own proof ….. drop a ball … it falls to the ground …. nothing to prove ….. it will happen every time …. you either accept it or not …..

          • Bezukhov

            I can drop a Bible … it falls to the ground. That’s not proof that it’s true. Here’s something that shows that the Bible’s “truth” may be called into question.
            Matthew 5:44 reads:
            But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
            Has this advice been taken to heart by Christendom since it became the dominant force in the West some 1500 years ago? The most cursory glance at that 1500 years of history is an emphatic “No!”. Christianity has thrived and prospered when it took Matthew 5:44 to read:
            But I say unto you, Exterminate your enemies, kill them that curse you, do evil to them that hate you, and slay those which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

          • Amos Moses

            “I can drop a Bible … it falls to the ground. That’s not proof that it’s true. ”

            STRAWMAN ………. flame on torch ………

            Matthew 5:44 reads:
            But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
            Has this advice been taken to heart by Christendom since it became the dominant force in the West some 1500 years ago?

            out of context … and …. STRAWMAN ………… again …… flame on torch ………… no real arguments here …… FAIL …………

          • Bezukhov

            If Christians wish to ignore what their Messiah said,the reasons must be cause it wasn’t true.

          • Amos Moses

            nope …….. STRAWMAN again …….. FAIL ………

          • Bezukhov

            So explain why Christians ignore Matthew 5:44. If it’s not a question of “truth”, then it at least can be a case of Jesus passing out wrong advice. If you can’t trust Jesus’ advice, then whose can you trust?

          • Amos Moses

            “Christians ignore Matthew 5:44.”

            they do not ignore it ….. you do not understand what love is ….. love is not accepting any lie others tell you ….. it is telling them the truth …… despite their lies ….. liars gonna lie and think that those who do not accept their lies are “haters” ………..

        • Worf

          I’m fairly certain Amos is a troll. The way he uses all those periods in every post, and makes blatant attempts to rile people up. It just reeks of trolling.

          • Jason

            I know he is, but it’s fun reading his posts. I get a laugh and it brightens my day 🙂

          • Amos Moses

            sure Worf …. whatever ……

          • Worf

            Actually, you have replied to several of my many posts, but I forgive you for not remembering. Too busy typing so many periods I guess. Love and Peace fellow human. 😉

          • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

            Amos is far from a troll. Obviously, you don’t venture onto the Christian News often because Amos is a consistent & reliable Godly man.

          • Worf

            I would never argue that he isn’t consistent. For sure that is something he has going for him. But his posts are never rational debate. They tend to be the same infantile spouting of either “Nope! You’re wrong, I’m right” or “I know you are but what am I?”. It is his deliberate and persistent attempts to rile up non-believers that makes me believe he is just a very consistent (and frequently successful) troll.

      • Scott Keasey

        you are arrogant and self-centered to think your religion is the only true religion. Truth had no bearing on why you are Christain and your faith is not inspired by some devine, constant truth, it’s simply geography…..

        If you were born in Israel,
        you would probably be Jewish.

        If you were born in Saudi Arabia, you would probably be a
        Muslim.

        If you were born in India, you would probably be
        Hindu.

        If you were born in North Amerca, you would probably be a
        Christian.

        • Amos Moses

          ” Truth had no bearing on why you are Christain”

          Is that a scientific, theological or personal opinion …… as for the rest of what you wrote ….. you have no basis in fact ……….

    • Croquet Player

      Get a haircut, you look like a fool.

  • jim heffner

    Why can’t believers understand that other beliefs can do the same thing to them when the demographics change and study courses in other Holy books can be studied.
    If I were more mean spirited I’d say because most believers aren’t exactly thinkers.

    • RWH

      Meaning doesn’t come to people through the words of a text. Meaning comes through one’s interpretation of the words on the page. If I were a parent, I would be very concerned about what group is publishing the materials and what their particular take is on what is on the page. There are a lot of religious groups that take a metaphorical interpretation of the events in Genesis, for example, rather than a literal six-day creation. The same goes for other passages. How do we know that the Mormons or the Church of Scientology is not the one providing the materials. Would a Baptist want her child learning lessons written by a Catholic publication, or a Lutheran one? Would people who are KJV only want their child memorizing scripture from the RSV?

      • Amos Moses

        “Meaning doesn’t come to people through the words of a text. Meaning comes through one’s interpretation of the words on the page.”

        that is relying on ones own understanding ….. and not scriptural ………

        Prv 3:4 So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
        Prv 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

    • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

      Well, you kinda just said it didn’t you? And you’re kinda not referring to this believer because I don’t want it taught as a mandatory subject. If we fight to get it in as a mandatory subject, next comes Islam, then the rest comes pounding in – Buddhism, Noahidism, Kaballah, Scientology, Bhakti, etc. Soon, our kids are going to be more confused than they’ve ever been. You think they needed puppies after the elections last year & a day off, make all of those religions mandatory & you’ll be on suicide watch all day.

      Personally, I don’t think she has a pot to piss in since it’s an elective but then again, she is fighting Christianity & most do tend to win against Christianity. She can tell the kid, “Look, this book is just fairy tales like Dr. Seuss. A big fish really didn’t swallow a man. A man didn’t sleep with lions. Etc.” I mean, they don’t believe these stories are for real anyways. So why not just tell her kid they are fairy tales? Why get upset about it being read? They don’t get upset if Mother Goose is read & that’s the same in her mind. Maybe her gripe is the teachers are teaching it as it being a true fact.

      And she wants to stay anonymous? Really? Do you not think every parent in that 5 year old’s school, every teacher, lunch room lady & bus driver not know who has complained?Does she not think those parents are going to talk about it at home & those kids are going to hear it & the next thing you know, not only has she yanked her out of Bible class, she has also ostracized her from the kids. She has put this baby in the spot light. She’s going to come back in 2 years complaining that her kid is not part of groups & feels she is being left out. She is cutting & is depressed & is diagnosed with bipolar. She gonna start dying her hair black & wearing black clothes. Wonder why mama? Because you didn’t want them to be a part of that group.

    • No Safety Pin!

      Red-eyes!

      The wisdom of the magical weed, the smoking crutch!

      • jim heffner

        NYAH, NYAH! Your Mama wears combat boots.
        I can stoop to your level if I have to.

        You’ve said nothing to counter my assertion except to attempt to insult me. Let me know if you ever have anything of any bearing on the subject being discussed otherwise……all you’re doing is validating my point.

  • Amos Moses

    she is not worried about elective study ….. she is worried about EFFECTIVE study ……..

    • Jason

      Effective how?

      • Amos Moses

        she is afraid that her child will actually become a christian …….. and then he might try to convert her ….. happens all the time ………

        • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

          I agree. Why else would she be concerned about her child attending a class that she thinks is fictional? Mother Goose is fictional, Hickory Dickory Dock is fictional, Donald Duck is as well. Did she get upset about these as well? Of course not because she knows.

          • Jason

            “Because she knows,” …that no one is trying to convince her children that children’s books are historically accurate. If they have Donald Duck is real class in public school I’d hope someone would be upset.
            Don’t care about private school. Teach all the weird stuff you want…. just don’t vote:) joking

          • https://disqus.com/home/channel/atheismftw/ Ian Cooper

            No one is trying to teach kids that Mother Goose is the one true god and creator of the universe, or that those who don’t believe will be tortured for eternity in a lake of fire.

        • Jason

          Afraid 🙂
          Maybe she wants her child’s adolescent brain to fully develop before she introduces irrational beliefs that many hold true around the world

          • Amos Moses

            “before she introduces irrational beliefs”

            is that a scientific, theological or personal opinion ………..

          • Jason

            That child brains are underdeveloped and will believe almost anything adults throw their way? Scientific fact… not opinion

          • Amos Moses

            “irrational beliefs”

            is it a personal opinion that it is irrational, a scientific opinion, or a theological opinion ……….

          • Jason

            “Irrational beliefs” is not an option. If everyone uses reason they should come to the same conclusion.
            There are such things as rational and irrational options but they are different than understanding the world.

          • Amos Moses

            does not answer the question ….. “irrational beliefs” ….. is it a personal opinion that it is irrational, a scientific opinion, or a theological opinion ……..

          • Jason

            I thought I did. Sorry, let me clarify. Correctly identifying something as irrational is a fact… not an option

          • Amos Moses

            a fact based on what …… science, theology, or personal OPINION ……….

          • Jason

            Nope. Fact based on Reason… and thinking

          • Amos Moses

            “reason” based on what ………….. “thinking” based on what ………….

          • Jason

            Reason based on the 3 laws of thought. Thinking …. self explanatory:)

          • Amos Moses

            reason based on thought (or thinking) ….. can you spell C-I-R-C-U-L-A-R …………. again …. no answer ………

          • Jason

            You seem confused. The 3 laws of thought are the rules used to determine if something is reasonable. Use your brain and think. Nothing “C-I-R-C-U-L-A-R” there 🙂

          • Amos Moses

            keep telling yourself that …….. it is circular reasoning ….. reasoning is thinking …. thinking is reasoning ….. and it tells me everything ….. you are chasing your tail ………

          • Jason

            … try again

          • Andrew W

            Are talking snakes rational?

          • Amos Moses

            and again once again ……….. interesting ….. and out of context …………. and devoid of meaning …………….. and you seem to be talking ….. so i would say the evidence is there …….

          • MarkSebree

            Even worse. Burning bushes that do not burn and that do talk. At least a snake has a mouth.

          • Vince

            You’re a smart girl.

          • MarkSebree

            And you are a dumb jerk. In case you cannot tell from the name, and am a man. Chances are that I am older than you as well as better educated than you based on your many posts.

            By the way, I know a number of smart girls, and many very intelligent women. All of them can run rings around you logically and with a better sense of reason.

    • Andrew W

      EFFECTIVE study…………………………. …….. …………

      If …………….. a man is caught in the………………….. act of raping a young woman who is not
      engaged, he………….. must pay fifty………… pieces of silver to her father. Then he must
      marry the young woman because he………………………… violated her, and he will never be
      allowed to………………. divorce her. Deuteronomy 22:28-29…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

      • Amos Moses

        and again once again ……….. interesting ….. and out of context …………. and devoid of meaning ……..

    • Andrew W

      EFFECTIVE study…………………………. …….. …………
      When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that
      the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the
      slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the
      slave is his own property. Exodus 21:20-21

      Teach the children!

      • Amos Moses

        and once again ……….. interesting ….. and out of context …………. and devoid of meaning ……..

      • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

        One thing I do find awesome about the Scriptures that you post is the fact that you’re in the Word. I am having trouble putting them all together to see what the point is that you’re trying to make. They seem to be scattered & not having a real purpose unless you’re just enjoying posting moments of history for the rest of us to read along the way.

    • Andrew W

      EFFECTIVE study …….. ……………………………………
      They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their
      fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek
      the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or
      great, whether man or woman. 2 Chronicles 15:12-13

      Teach the children who to MURDER, yay!!

      • Amos Moses

        once again ……….. interesting ….. and out of context …………. and devoid of meaning ……..

    • Andrew W

      EFFECTIVE study ……..

      1 Timothy 2:11-12 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

      Forget………………….. equality! Teach…………………………………………………………………………… the BIBLE………………………

      • Amos Moses

        again ……….. interesting ….. and out of context …………. and devoid of meaning ……..

    • Andrew W

      EFFECTIVE……………………………. study……………………

      But if this charge is true,
      and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the
      girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall
      stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her
      unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from
      your midst. Deuteronomy 22:20-21

      Death, murder, kill, teach the children!

      • Amos Moses

        interesting ….. and out of context …………. and devoid of meaning ……..

  • Max

    Meddlesome witch: Get a life.

    • Jason

      That’s rude

  • Garden of Love

    I really pity this poor kid’s mother. She sounds as mentally unstable as Madalyn Murray O’Hair. Using your own child as a weapon in your own personal war on Christianity should be considered child abuse. She claims to be concerned about the child’s feelings, but it’s pretty obvious this is all about her.

    • Jason

      The legal case with O’Hair was a big milestone for our country.

  • meamsane

    The atheist mother is apparently ashamed of her atheism! A case based on a hypothetical argument which does not exist is no case since the class is optional! There is no Constitutional principle that deals with Irrational fears!

    • Jason

      Why do you think she is ashamed? She just understands the difficulties of being ostracized due to religious differences.

      • Jason Todd

        Her argument is pure speculation. Period.

        • Jason

          Do you think you answered the question? Question mark? 🙂

          • Jason Todd

            Non-sequitur.

          • Jason

            …ish. It is was funny. But your reply to my question was unrelated.

          • Jason Todd

            Nope. It has nothing to do with any part of the story or the related discussion.

      • meamsane

        She says that she feels that her daughter must join this optional class or other children will look down on her. This reveals an insecurity on her part about her sense of belonging among others since her view of things (atheism) is a minority in the area in which her daughter goes to school. But since the class is optional, this is not a valid argument.

        • Jason

          There is a big difference between being insecure or embarrassed with ashamed. To be ashamed you must feel guilt and there is nothing wrong with being an atheist. Embarrassed, on the other hand, is correlated to the way others treat and accept you. Insecurity is the perceptions of such treatments.
          She is not ashamed. 🙂

          • meamsane

            So, you have talked to her?

          • Jason

            Nope

          • meamsane

            Insecurity can lead to many feelings. Have you looked up the word Ashamed? Here are some synonyms for ashamed:
            Sorry, shamefaced, abashed, sheepish, guilty, contrite, remorseful, repentant, penitent, regretful, rueful, apologetic, EMBARRASSED, Mortified, humiliated, chagrined, discomfited , compunctious

          • Jason

            Similar but not the same… hence synonym

          • meamsane

            A synonym is a word or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same thing. I. E equivalence.
            If I say shut the door as opposed to close the door am I not saying the same thing?
            A ridiculous answer!

          • Jason

            Moral vs social breach?

            When ashamed, we feel bad because of moral wrong-doing. This occurs when we lie, cheat, steal, and so on. The shame may be known to others or it may be privately experienced by oneself. The person may feel sad, unworthy, or disgraced. The harm to one’s dignity and honor depends on how serious (bad) the act was. Breaking a moral code is more serious than breaking a social code (etiquette)

            When embarrassed, one feels self-conscious, intense discomfort with oneself in front of others. This occurs when doing something socially unacceptable or having a personal condition revealed (exposed) to others. The person may blush, sweat, or feel anxiety as a reaction. One feels the loss of dignity. The harm, breaking a social code, is usually temporary and minor.

            She was not ashamed:)

          • meamsane

            You must have some ego……you simply don’t like to lose an argument since you find my Impressions of this lady in the article so Important you just keep babbling to have the last word!! I give it to you!

          • Jason

            XD no big ego. I just try call out others hateful messages. Take care

    • Andrew W

      Would anyone have an issue with a “privately funded” satanic elective?

      • meamsane

        A red herring.

    • tatoo

      She is afraid of being killed by the good Christians in the town.

  • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

    We’re dealing with self-contradictory logic here:

    1. If there were any constitutional basis for this lawsuit, then the class in question would have been forced on the student and therefore wouldn’t have been an elective
    2. If the class is an elective — which it is — and therefore chosen by the student voluntarily, then it wasn’t forced on the student in question; if this is the case, then the entire lawsuit is baseless

    If it was the student’s choice to pick that Bible elective, then what exactly is the mother complaining about? Does she feel like she has a right to force her atheism on her child despite railing against Christian parents for forcing Christianity on theirs? Sounds pretty hypocritical to me.

    • meamsane

      It is! Good points!!

    • Jason Todd

      Her motivation is removing the class because she selfishly doesn’t want anyone to be able to take the class if they want to.

      • https://disqus.com/home/channel/atheismftw/ Ian Cooper

        The class should be held in a church. It doesn’t belong in a public school. If it were held in a church, none of this would have happened, and the kids taking the class could learn whatever ridiculous nonsense the teachers wanted to teach.

        • Jason Todd

          You mean like atheism?

          It doesn’t matter where you think they should be teaching it. The US Constitution allows free reign.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            What does that mean “allows free reign?”

          • David Thompson

            No, it does not allow any such nonsense. It restricts the government from endorsing a religion, which, if only christianity is taught by a public school, is what is being done. These reason most people don’t speak up is because historically such families face ostracization, property damage, and threats when they do. These people, unfortunately will face the same.

          • Jason Todd

            No, it does not allow any such nonsense. It restricts the government from endorsing a religion, which, if only christianity is taught by a public school, is what is being done.

            *sigh*

            Is your ignorance of the Constitution true or willful?

            These reason most people don’t speak up is because historically such families face ostracization, property damage, and threats when they do. These people, unfortunately will face the same.

            And? So what? I have seen what a godless society looks like. Pushback is way overdue and appropriate. Because that’s how you handle and discourage bullies.

          • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

            The Constitution definitely prohibits the government from endorsing religion, but it also prohibits the government from prohibiting the free exercise of religion — the second half of the Emoluments Clause, which happens to be the half most often ignored, makes that very clear. There’s a name for the fallacy of harping on half of a piece of text while ignoring the other half: It’s called quote mining. Quote mining of the Constitution — that’s the logical hoop that some on the left have to jump through in order to justify lawsuits likes this.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            You keep insisting there’s a “second half of the Establishment Clause.” There isn’t. There is a Free Exercise Clause, but it has nothing to do with this case because no one is alleging that a governmental agency is interfering with their right to worship.

          • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

            That’s called an argument from silence — also fallacious because the fact that no one is alleging something doesn’t mean that what no one is alleging isn’t true. In this case the government is using the school to suppress students’ rights to free exercise on its premises. It doesn’t matter where you are, if the government tells you to shut up, even if it’s on public property, then the government has violated the free exercise clause.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            That’s a strawman argument. Most atheists, like myself, don’t wan’t a “godless society”, we just want one that treats people who choose to be “godless” equally. Those are not the same thing.

          • Eaf

            And the school is not endorsing a religion. The school is allowing this class to be taught by outsiders. Not with government money or labor. If you wanted to move there and start an atheist group you would be allowed. But you atheist don’t belive in anything so I’m sure it’s hard to attract a group of kids to sit through a whole hour of Christian bashing.

    • Andrew W

      As long as I can fund an elective for Satanism in the school’s district.

      • TheKingOfRhye

        Well, the Satanic Temple has “After School Satan” clubs in some places…

        • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

          That’s another hypocritical standard that people along those lines have absolutely no problem with. If that is constitutional, then why isn’t at least permitting Christianity also constitutional? When the left breaks their own rules, then they no longer have the right to enforce them.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            It’s not hypocritical or “breaking our own rules” to say that if you have to allow something like this, you have to allow other religious programs as well.

          • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

            Then where are the “after school Christianity” clubs?

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Those “After School Satan” clubs I’m talking about? A total of 9 in the entire country, according to their website. I’m sure I could find more Christian clubs of some sort….maybe just a tiny bit more…..

          • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

            Yeah, on college campuses, but not in elementary schools like those clubs are. My point exactly.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            I just did a little bit of googling…..you’re so wrong. I found one called “Community Bible Study”. They offer after school progams for elementary school students, and I found 8 within a 50-mile radius of my location.

          • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

            On campus or off? If they’re off campus, then my hypocrisy argument still stands.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Now this one is an even better example, one the Satanic Temple seems to have formed their clubs to combat directly…..The “Child Evangelism Fellowship”. From the wikipedia article about them:

            The primary ministries of CEF are the ‘Good News Club’ and the ‘5-Day Club’. Both of these programs involve training members from various evangelical churches to effectively teach children in homes, neighborhood centers and schools. On June 11, 2001 the USA Supreme Court ruled in favor of allowing Good News Clubs to meet in public elementary schools after school hours, based on equal access and protection from viewpoint discrimination. Since that time CEF has been working to establish Good News Clubs in public schools around the USA. Currently, there are Good News Clubs in over 3000 public elementary schools.

            (and it’s that 2001 ruling that allows the Satanic Temple to have their clubs as well!)

          • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

            Well it is indeed free exercise, I’ll tell you that much, so this particular thread about hypocrisy, which is unrelated to the one about the Supreme Court, ends in a stalemate.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            I’ve talked to some who don’t realize they are the ones being hypocrites, when they say things like the After School Satan clubs shouldn’t be allowed, but are just fine with Christian clubs.

          • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

            Do those people running those clubs recognize the right of the Christian clubs to exist? If not, then they’re also hypocrites.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Yeah, because like I said, the same ruling that allows Christian clubs to exist allows them to.

          • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

            Where do they say that they allow them to? Just because the ruling allows both the heathen and Christian clubs to exist doesn’t mean they don’t recognize each other’s rights to exist.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Why should one club care about whether another one thinks they have the right to exist? One club isn’t in a position to allow or not allow others to exist. That’s like me saying “I don’t recognize your right to exist”…..so what?

            But any rate, the website for the “After School Satan” clubs cites that SC ruling, so I suppose they do recognize other clubs have the right to exist. It would be silly to say otherwise, after all.

          • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

            You claimed to care when you attacked Christians who don’t recognize the right of those that must not be named to exist as hypocrites, so why are you now flip-flopping on caring? Sounds hypocritical to me.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            I said people think they shouldn’t be allowed. That’s not the same thing as not recognizing that they are allowed.

          • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

            Then do members of the Satanist clubs think that the Christian clubs shouldn’t be allowed? Again, if they do, then they’re also hypocrites.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            That I really couldn’t tell you. Other than that they have the position of “if you allow one, allow them all”

          • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

            Fair enough. Well, we’ll know soon enough whether they’re hypocrites or not then.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “We’ll know soon enough whether they’re hypocrites”?

            It’s hypocrisy to have picked the wrong religion, is that what you’re saying? Even if it’s what you sincerely believe? That would not be hypocrisy, it would be being wrong….not the same thing at all. I’m guessing you’re not aware that most Satanists these days are agnostics and/or atheists, for whatever that’s worth.

            ” The use of English to deny one’s own ability to speak English”?? You lost me with that one, what you are you even talking about?

          • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

            You haven’t met any atheist who has ever denied the existence of truth? Really? Because Frank Turek sure has. As for your introductory sentence, again, read the comments above yours. That introductory sentence belongs in the context of “Then do members of the Satanist clubs think that the Christian clubs shouldn’t be allowed? Again, if they do, then they’re also hypocrites.”

            Also, quoting a single introductory sentence outsie of the context of its paragraph is quote mining.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            I tried to reply to this, but it thought I put a link in my post, let’s try again….

            I guess I jumped to conclusions after the “we’ll see soon enough” bit, sorry about that. I wasn’t “spinning” anything, I seem to have been mistaken. As I understand it, the Satanic Temple would probably be fine if NO religious after-school clubs were allowed, what they’re after is equal treatment. I wouldn’t call that hypocrisy.

            I truly haven’t met anyone of any faith or lack thereof who has said anything like “there is no truth.”. Just speaking from my own personal experience, none of the other atheists I have talked to, nor any of the atheist authors I have read have said that. At most, they might say, like I said, there are some things that we can’t know the truth about, but that’s quite different.

          • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

            You called it hypocrisy for Christians to deny the right of the Satanic Temple clubs to exist if they allow the Christian clubs to exist. I just flipped the standard on itself, and when I turned that standard on itself, you flip-flopped on it entirely.

            As for the claim that “there is no truth”, it only often comes out if you’re debating face-to-face. In fact, if I recall correctly, the Turek vs. Hitchens debate features that self-refuting statement.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            I’ve done no “flip-flopping” at all. It would indeed be hypocritical of the Satanic Temple to say Christian clubs shouldn’t be allowed to exist while theirs do, but as far as I know, that’s not what they’re saying.

          • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

            You admitted being completely unsure about whether that’s what they were saying or not ― that’s what you admitted when you said “That [you] couldn’t tell [me].” So, it’s only a waiting game to see whether they say that or not, and if they do, then they’re also hypocrites, and because of satanism’s nature, the chances of that are highly likely.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            I can only say what their official position seems to be, not what they personally think. ( like, say, if they “hate Christians”)

          • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

            And their official position is indeed one that is diametrically opposed to that of Christianity, which of course strengthens my case here.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Well, until they actually demonstrate hypocrisy, I’ll refrain from making that judgement.

          • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

            Maybe some polls of Satanists on how they view Christians would help you in that case, because the closer to 0% favorable their view of Christians and Christianity is, the more likely they are to be hypocrites on this school issue in particular.

            Also, if Christian and Satanist clubs are on the same campus and the Satanists start going over to the Christian clubs and bullying the Christians, then that would also count as hypocrisy on this standard, but also keeping my patience there.

    • Ambulance Chaser

      You don’t need force to make out an Establishment Clause case. Building a cross on public land is a violation of the EC.

      That being said, if you want to find an element of force, the facts say that this class is clearly not, in practice, an elective, despite it being called that by name.

      • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

        [WARNING: Quoting the part of the following sentence before the colon without also quoting the part after it is quote mining] Perhaps you should actually *read* the Establishment Clause surrounded by its context before jumping to the conclusion that building a cross on public land violates it: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”

        The boldfaced portion is what’s significant to this case in particular. Forcing a school to remove an elective from its curriculum that allows students to see both the Christian *and* secular sides of an argument is in itself infringing on the student’s rights to free exercise.

        • Ambulance Chaser

          No, it isn’t relevant at all because that’s not the Establishment Clause, that’s the Free Exercise Clause. And governments don’t enjoy Free Exercise protection.

          • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

            Students are not governments.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Completely and utterly false. Every Supreme and lower court ruling on this matter has held that schools are governmental entities. I suggest you look into Everson v. Board of Education and Engel v. Vitale, for starters.

          • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

            Opinions of unelected judges are red herrings when the liberty of students and teachers is at stake.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            The “opinions of unelected judges” have the force of law.

          • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

            Appeal to authority fallacy.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            No, it’s not an appeal to authority, it’s just recognizing what the Supreme Court is there to do.

          • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

            And recognizing what the Supreme Court is supposed to do also means recognizing that judges who understand the original context of the Constitution have far more force of law than those who cherry-pick clauses out of it to harp on.

          • MarkSebree

            No, it is referencing the applicable authority. That is their area of expertise. Here is the definition of “appeal to authority” from Wikipedia. You, of course, can reference your own preferred authority for a definition.

            “An argument from authority (Latin: argumentum ad verecundiam), also called an appeal to authority, is a common type of argument which can be fallacious, such as when an authority is cited on a topic outside their area of expertise or when the authority cited is not a true expert.”

            Lawyers and judges are supposed to be experts in the field of law. Thus, referencing applicable court cases ruling in that area is an example of citing the applicable reference, assuming that the case or ruling has not been overturned by a later one.

            An example of an appeal to authority not relevant to this discussion would be referencing Dr. Ben Carson’s opinion that the pyramids were used to store grain from near the end of Genesis in the Bible. Dr. Carson is a retired neurosurgeon, not an archeologist or egyptologist. For that matter he is not even an architect. Giving his opinion any weight on the purpose of the pyramids is worthless, and would be an example of an appeal to authority.

            Some facts that counter his claim. There were sarcophagi found in the pyramids. The pyramids are built from massive stone blocks weighing many tons. The volume of the pyramids is over 90% stone. The shape would collapse if it was mostly hollow and of the size, materials, and construction methods used on the pyramids. Historical references from the time of those pharaohs state that the pyramids were decades long projects to build their tombs.

          • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

            No one who sets double standards by cherry-picking constitutional clauses to harp on is ever an expert in constitutional law regardless of how much power he or she has.

          • MarkSebree

            Basically, you are admitting that you are a hypocrite. The Establishment Clause as expanded by the Fourteenth Amendment’s Equal Rights and Due Process Clauses limits the government or anyone who represents the government at any level from endorsing or disparaging any religion or religious beliefs. It places a limit on the actions of the government. The government at all levels is required to treat ALL religious beliefs, no matter how much they offend the individual representing the government, equally. When the individual is no longer representing the government, i.e. “off the clock and out of uniform”, the Establishment Clause no longer applies to them.

            The Freedom of Conscious Clause basically states that each individual has the right to follow their own beliefs or non-beliefs without interference, with the implied statement that the right exists so long as it does not interfere without anyone else’s right to do the same thing. In colloquial terms, your right to follow your beliefs stops as soon as it meets somebody else.

            And keep in mind this item, the Equal Rights Clause means that the rights of everyone must be treated equally within the same arena. That means that if you feel that you have the right to impose your beliefs onto someone else, they have an equal right to impose their beliefs onto you. If you feel that it is okay to impose your beliefs onto a captive audience of grade school children, then other religions have the same right to do so to your children using the same resources.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            I wouldn’t use that definition of “Appeal to Authority.” An Appeal to Authority can be fallacious even if the authority cited is, in fact, an expert on the topic. It’s a fallacy because you’re stating that a fact is true BECAUSE it was stated by an authority, not because there is evidence to back it up. Regardless of how much of an expert you are on a given topic, that alone does not, in and of itself, make your statement true. It’s more LIKELY to be true, because an expert should be able to (and probably will) cite relevant facts to back up his/her argument, but his/her status as an expert is not evidence that the statement itself is true.

            Citing a judicial opinion is not an appeal to authority. The contents of the opinion is, itself, what is true. In other words, whatever the opinion says is what’s true. It would be an appeal to authority to say “Judge Smith is a wise man, and an experienced jurist, so if he says that Engel v. Vitale bans teacher-led prayer in school, then that’s what it must mean.” It would not, however, be an appeal to authority to read Engel v. Vitale itself and then conclude “The text of this ruling says teacher-led school prayer is banned, therefore it is.” It’s not like there’s some other text somewhere that is more accurate about what Engel v. Vitale says than Engel v. Vitale.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            And yet another confounding insult against the Supreme Court. I’ll tell you the same thing I told Jason Todd: I don’t know how the law works in your world, but in this one, Supreme Court rulings are law and must be followed.

          • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

            Not if they can be overturned.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Okay, was Engel or Everson overturned at some point?

          • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

            Will be during this administration.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            I doubt that, but anyway…

            They HAVEN’T BEEN and until they are, they’re still valid law.

          • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

            Decisions by judges who don’t cherry-pick Constitution clauses to harp on have greater force of law than decisions by those who do.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Once again, no. A ruling is a ruling is a ruling. Period. It’s that simple.

            I honestly have no idea how the legal would function if it worked like the users of this site think it does.

          • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

            Calling oneself a justice while cherry-picking Constitutional clauses to harp on is judicial hypocrisy. Hypocrisy disqualifies judges.

          • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

            Students are not governments.

    • Robert

      The opposite of this is evolution being taught in science class and not even as a elective. OR
      That homosexuality is normal . well if it’s so normally behavior why do they need to teach it is ? Because it is not. AND HEATHEN TRIBES with no knowledge of the bible or Christianity more often than not punished homosexuality.

  • Guzzman

    The courts have made a critical distinction between teaching religion and teaching about religion. While it is constitutionally permissible for public schools to teach ABOUT religion, it is unconstitutional for public schools and their employees to promote or endorse any specific religious belief.

    These classes are clearly designed to indoctrinate and preach and thus amount to an unconstitutional government endorsement of religion. Whether the classes are optional or who is financing them is legally irrelevant.

  • Frankenputer

    Even if the Parent were not Atheist this is a valid Constitutional complaint. The Separation of Church and State protect Religion as well. A Catholic would not want their child in a Baptist Class just to fit in. Nor would a Presbyterian want their child attempting to fit in with with the Catholics. If they do not “elect” to take the class they WILL be ostracized by the children who do. It is a fundamental tenant of ALL Christian based religions to shun outsiders. Without even getting into the other Major Religions or the Minor Sects like the 7th Day or the Jehovah’s. The only protection available to Freedom of Religion is Freedom from Religion.

  • Worf

    McCollum v. Board of Education (1948) – Supreme Court of the United States:

    “… To hold that a state cannot, consistently with the First and Fourteenth Amendments, utilize its public school system to aid any or all religious faiths or sects in the dissemination of their doctrines and ideals does not … manifest a governmental hostility to religion or religious teachings. … For the First Amendment rests upon the premise that both religion and government can best work to achieve their lofty aims if each is left free from the other within its respective sphere.”

    In other words: Teach your kids your religion at home or in church. It is your right as an American. DO NOT use public schools to promote religion. Public schools are agents of the government and must remain neutral on the subject of religion.

    • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

      Permission != promotion. Promoting religion in schools would be forcing that Bible class down students’ throats as core curriculum. Offering it as an elective that students can freely choose whether or not to take is merely permitting it. Conflation of those two is a category error.

      • Worf

        It is not a matter of permission. The class is clearly intended to promote christianity, which is a violation. The kid that opts out of the class is open to ostracism, bullying, and attempts at conversion for not sharing the religion of his or her classmates. This is decided constitutional law, and the school is on the wrong side.

        • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

          Tap-dancing, are we? The student can freely choose whether or not to take that class. In order for it to be appropriately classified as promotion of Christianity it would have to be mandatory.

          • Worf

            Not according to several Supreme Court rulings. Here is another:

            Everson v. Board of Education (1947), the U.S. Supreme Court decided the following.
            “The establishment of religion clause means at least this: Neither a state nor the federal government may set up a church. Neither can pass laws that aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion… . ***Neither a state or the federal government may, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa.*** In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect ‘a wall of separation between church and state.’”

            The bit between the ***s is the critical bit in these cases. Public schools are considered agents of the government. It is settled law and they will rightfully be forced to get rid of these unconstitutional classes.

          • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

            The key words are “neither a state nor the federal government.” Schools at their most basic level are run by the local governments, not the state board of education and definitely not Common Core which they’re only loosely connected to, and this elective was definitely not in any state board of education, vindicating it on this matter as well.

            Plus, the opinions of unelected judges are fallacious appeals to authority when student liberty is at stake.

          • Worf

            Public schools (public property) receive tax dollars (public money), and are therefor agents of the government.

            Article 2, Section 5 of the Constitution states:
            No public money or property shall ever be appropriated, applied, donated, or used, directly or indirectly, for the use, benefit, or support of any sect, church, denomination, or system of religion, or for the use, benefit, or support of any priest, preacher, minister, or other religious teacher or dignitary, or sectarian institution as such.

          • Jason Todd

            Another problem: The reference to Jefferson originates from his 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptists. In it, the wall he mentions is to keep government from interfering with the church, not the other way around.

        • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

          Also, your second-to-last sentence = slippery slope fallacy.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            No, it’s pretty much taken word for word from the text of the article.

          • http://strawn-04.blogspot.com/ Kenny Strawn

            All double standards are hypocrisy, including that double standard.

    • Jason Todd

      Problem: The Constitution doesn’t say separation of church and state. Anywhere. Implied or explicit, in whole or in part. The Constitution also doesn’t give SCOTUS the authority to legislate from the bench. Only Congress has that power.

      Which is why the ruling you cited is unconstitutional.

      • Worf

        “It is true that the exact words “separation of church and state” do not appear in the U.S. Constitution, but neither do “separation of powers,” “interstate commerce,” “right to privacy,” and other phrases describing well-established constitutional principles.”

        If you think the rulings are unconstitutional, get them reversed. Until they are, this issue is settled constitutional law.

        I posted this once in this thread, but I will happily post it again:

        Article 2, Section 5 of the Constitution states:
        No public money or property shall ever be appropriated, applied, donated, or used, directly or indirectly, for the use, benefit, or support of any sect, church, denomination, or system of religion, or for the use, benefit, or support of any priest, preacher, minister, or other religious teacher or dignitary, or sectarian institution as such.

        • Jason Todd

          It is true that the exact words “separation of church and state” do not appear in the U.S. Constitution, but neither do “separation of powers,

          Doesn’t need to be. It’s implied. Schoolhouse Rock went over it.

          I posted this once in this thread, but I will happily post it again:
          Article 2, Section 5 of the Constitution states:

          ROTFLMBO!

          That’s from the Oklahoma State Constitution. NOT The US Constitution!

          FAIL!

        • TheKingOfRhye

          I’d just like to say, it’s nice to have an honorable Klingon on my side. 😉

      • Ambulance Chaser

        The ruling is unconstitutional? Was it overturned by a different court at some point?

        If not, it’s good law and can be relied on in litigation no matter how much you or anyone else on the internet stomp your foot, fuss, and fume.

        Contrary to popular belief, lawyers do not spend any time at all wringing our hands about whether already-decided cases are “constitutional” or not. What would be the point? If it’s good for us, we use it. If it’s bad, we distinguish it. We don’t try to come up with ridiculous excuses as to why it’s somehow invalid or unusable. If it exists, and is not overruled, we have to follow it. Simple as that.

        • Jason Todd

          The ruling is unconstitutional?

          Yes. It is. I already explained why. The only reason why you are defending something that flies directly in the face of the Constitution is because you are an atheist. So of course you are fine with Christian speech being persecuted and intimidated into silence.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            “So of course you are fine with Christian speech being persecuted and intimidated into silence.”

            I’m not, nor did I say anything that would indicate I am.

            “The only reason why you are defending something that flies directly in the face of the Constitution is because you are an atheist.”

            I’m neither defending nor condemning the ruling. I’m trying to tell you, despite your best efforts not to listen, that IT DOESN’T MATTER what you or I think of the ruling. It exists, and must be followed until overturned or abrogated by a Constitutional Amendment.

            I heard your explanation; it’s irrelevant. Not because of anything you said, but because you’re not a Supreme Court justice ruling with the majority.

            There is nothing you can say that will render this ruling invalid. You could come up with the most brilliant, eloquent, well-researched, well-documented reasoning and have it published by the Harvard Law Review and the Journal of the American Bar Association. You could win an award for your article and be given a seat on the Board of Trustees at Princeton. IT STILL WON’T MATTER.

          • Jason Todd

            I’m not, nor did I say anything that would indicate I am.

            I’m neither defending nor condemning the ruling.

            I want you to present to me a single time you defended Christian speech. Just one. I’ll wait.

            Not because of anything you said, but because you’re not a Supreme Court justice ruling with the majority.

            Excuse me, but Supreme Court justices are not kings. You act as if the things they say are beyond reproach of any kind.

            And that is one of the most asinine things you have ever said. Using your logic, nobody had the right to question Dred Scott because it came from SCOTUS.

            I have read the Constitution. It was never intended to be used as a weapon against religious speech, especially one particular type. That’s something you see in communist regimes, not the United States of America, where there is no such bloody thing as freedom *from* religion.

            Now this atheist Mr. Hankey doesn’t want her son in an elective course. He will not be forced to participate, but she wants to force the school to remove the course so nobody else has the option.

            Where is the logic in that? Why is it okay? Why should it be championed? Fact of the matter is, SCOTUS is not relevant because the purely speculative reasoning behind this stupid lawsuit does not even mention SCOTUS. So bringing them up is not an answer.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            “Excuse me, but Supreme Court justices are not kings. You act as if the things they say are beyond reproach of any kind.”

            I didn’t say they were. Only that their rulings must be followed, regardless of how you feel about them. And I said that because it’s true.

            “And that is one of the most asinine things you have ever said. Using your logic, nobody had the right to question Dred Scott because it came from SCOTUS.”

            I didn’t say that nobody had the right to question the Dred Scott decision. You can question it all you want. You can question ANY ruling. But if you think your “questioning” supersedes that ruling, you’ll be in for a very rude awakening when you get to court.

            “Now this atheist Mr. Hankey doesn’t want her son in an elective course. He will not be forced to participate, but she wants to force the school to remove the course so nobody else has the option.”

            No, she wants it taken out of the public school so that, if certain families want to have “that option” they can have it, as long as it’s where it belongs: in a church or private school. Also, we’re talking about a female student in this story.

            “Where is the logic in that? Why is it okay? Why should it be championed?”

            If the statements by the mother are accurate, there seems to be an element of coercion, either from the school, or from the other kids, or both. In other words, the class is an “elective” in name only, because in reality, everyone goes to it. And if there is an all-school Bible class in a public school, that’s extremely unconstitutional.

            Yes, I know, not according to your understanding of the Constitution. However, as I keep reminding you, your interpretation is not the one used in any court in this country.

            “Fact of the matter is, SCOTUS is not relevant because the purely speculative reasoning behind this stupid lawsuit does not even mention SCOTUS. So bringing them up is not an answer.

            That’s not how lawsuits work. You don’t need to mention SCOTUS in your Complaint. You just need to allege facts that fit within a cause of action established, at some point, by a SCOTUS ruling, or by statute.

            I don’t know what “SCOTUS is not relevant” means. The legal system that exists in your head must be very, very complicated.

          • Jason Todd

            1) Yes, you did.

            2) Yes, you did.

            3) Barbra Streisand.

            I notice you didn’t respond to my challenge to produce a single instance where you defended Christian speech.

            Reason: You can’t.

            Your opinion is tainted by your bigotry.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            I’m not at issue here, so I’m not going to answer the question of whether I stood up for Christian speech because it’s not relevant.

            The topic of discussion, since you seem to have lost it, is whether Supreme Court rulings carry the force of law and must be followed. And the answer, obviously, is that they do, and they must. It’s as simple as that.

            I understand that you DISAGREE with a great number of SCOTUS rulings. I do too. But neither your opinion nor mine is relevant to whether a ruling is valid or must be followed. The answer, and the only answer, is yes.

            Now, if you vehemently disagree with a ruling, you’re free to promote a Constitutional amendment to nullify it, and if you’re successful, that’s what will happen. Or you could litigate up to a new Court and see if they will overturn it.

            But simply wishing a ruling doesn’t exist is utterly useless in practice.

          • Jason Todd

            You ARE the issue. You don’t get to be a lying bigot and get away with it.

            Blocked!

          • Ambulance Chaser

            No, I don’t. Luckily, I’m neither one but I guess you’ll never know that now, because you blocked me for not answering questions the way you’d like them to be answered. Such a shame.

      • TheKingOfRhye

        “The next time believers tell you that ‘separation of church and state’ does not appear in our founding document, tell them to stop using the word ‘trinity.’ The word ‘trinity’ appears nowhere in the bible. Neither does Rapture, or Second Coming, or Original Sin. If they are still unfazed (or unphrased), by this, then add Omniscience, Omnipresence, Supernatural,Transcendence, Afterlife, Deity, Divinity, Theology, Monotheism, Missionary, Immaculate Conception, Christmas, Christianity, Evangelical, Fundamentalist, Methodist, Catholic, Pope, Cardinal, Catechism, Purgatory, Penance, Transubstantiation, Excommunication, Dogma, Chastity, Unpardonable Sin, Infallibility, Inerrancy, Incarnation, Epiphany, Sermon, Eucharist, the Lord’s Prayer, Good Friday, Doubting Thomas, Advent, Sunday School, Dead Sea, Golden Rule, Moral, Morality, Ethics, Patriotism, Education, Atheism, Apostasy, Conservative (Liberal is in), Capital Punishment, Monogamy, Abortion, Pornography, Homosexual, Lesbian, Fairness, Logic, Republic, Democracy, Capitalism, Funeral, Decalogue, or Bible.”
        ― Dan Barker, Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist

      • TheKingOfRhye

        “The ‘establishment of religion’ clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect ‘a wall of separation between Church and State.'” – Justice Hugo Black, Everson v Board of Education, 1947

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    Every American needs Bible education for hearing the life-saving Gospel message of Jesus Christ and to be good. USA has no morality or ethics or virtues other than Christianity. Atheism only kills and destroys. Psalm 14. John ch.10. Atheistic Americans should all move to North Korea their own utopia instead of persecuting the Christians on the American soil. All children need the Word of God to live and not perish.

    • https://disqus.com/home/channel/atheismftw/ Ian Cooper

      Explain to me precisely how, using logic, you get the idea that atheism – i.e. disbelief in a god or gods – equates to killing and destroying.

      Also, explain how the Bible, which has numerous verses urging followers to kill and destroy, is not worse than atheism.

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        Atheists killed millions of Christians in the communist nations and are killing countless unborn children wherever possible and polluting the planet by experimenting on humans. Christians have always protected and rescued life. All charity and universal education have been started and sustained by the Christians. Doctrines count. Israel annihilated the Canaanites because they were child-abusing pervs.

        • https://disqus.com/home/channel/atheismftw/ Ian Cooper

          Rubbish. Communists killed millions. It had nothing to do with atheism. Did Torquemada protect and rescue life? No. He tortured and killed, as did Hitler, who was a devout Christian. Israel annihilated the Canaanites, and there is no evidence that anyone in Canaan abused children. The destruction in the land of canaan was genocide.

          • Jason Todd

            He tortured and killed, as did Hitler, who was a devout Christian.

            False. He was a pagan.

            The Israelites annihilated the Canaanites to steal their land

            You are an antisemite too? Cool!

            And BTW, communism promoted atheism.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Who is Torquemada? He is no Christian but another atheist. Atheists worship self and massacre people. Communists are atheists; they singled out Christians for massacre. Americans don’t know the outside world of USA, because you guys have been always protected by the nicest Protestant churches for the beginning for the longest time. The Israelites annihilated the child abusing pervs and murderers under God’s command. God uses flood and fire and foreign forces to punish evil civilizations. US Sodom and its servant nations may be next. It is up to the Creator God’s sovereignty. The land belongs to God. Read Genesis chapter 6, 15, 18, 19, Leviticus chapter 18-20, Romans chapter 1, Jude chapter 1, and Revelation chapter 20. You must repent of your sin to get saved. John chapter 3. Secular nations are conducting genocide by population control.

    • Jason

      I don’t want to move. I like it here. I was raised here. The constitution is well written… my favorite is the 1st amendment:)

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        But you are not American. Non-Americans should move out of the USA. Only the Americans and those who love the USA should live in the USA. That’s how it is in a normal nation. True Americans respect Christianity. The USA is nothing apart from Christianity. The land belongs to God.

        • Jason

          Why do you think I’m not American? 🙂

          “The land belongs to God.” This land belongs to all Americans… equally. No matter what religion you hold dear… Hence the first amendment of the US constitution 🙂

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            No, you are a slave to the 1%. Nothing belongs to Americans; everything belongs to the Creator God.

          • Jason

            I’m a slave? Slavery is illegal… someone’s in trouble 🙂

            “Nothing belongs to Americans; everything belongs to the Creator God.” How do you know? I own many things. Is my bad credit score also “God’s?”

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Atheists shouldn’t prohibit the Holy Bible because the Holy Bible alone teaches mankind freedom and equality. You’ve been entrusted with things but you won’t take anything with you when you depart this world. Everything belongs to God; He is the Creator and Owner and Master of everything. Your sin is your own making. That’s why you need to repent of your sin to get saved. Read John chapter 3.

          • Jason

            “Holy Bible alone teaches mankind freedom and equality”… *giggles* 🙂

            “Atheists shouldn’t prohibit the Holy Bible,” I don’t know any atheist that has prevent the practice of someone’s religion. There is just a time and place for religion and it’s not during public school. Grade school is a very important time in a person’s life and it should be used to learn about… (trying hard to say this the nicest way possible) …useful material.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            This news is about the atheists’ oppressions in the USA. Atheism and Sodomy is holding monopoly in Western public schools. All children should have access to the Holy Bible and Bible education, which has been the very purpose of public schools’ existence. The Westerners who equate Christianity with other religions/ideologies do so in order to continue immorality and abortion. All children have rights to the Word of God at home and at school.

          • Jason

            Like I said earlier… time and place. There is no such thing as “Christian oppression” in the United States 🙂
            If the parents want to indoctrinate (which I think is morally wrong) their children then they can by taking them to church, Sunday school, and reading them the Bible.
            The purpose of public school is to teach our children so they can be the next generation to progress the world further.

            Toward the end of your post it got weird; “The Westerners who equate Christianity with other religions/ideologies do so in order to continue immorality and abortion.”
            ……….? What?
            You think all of western society who put Christianity in the same sinking boat as all the other make believe myths…. is to be immoral and have abortions (a very difficult and stressful life choice?) that doesn’t even come close to making sense. Not even close to being related.
            The weird thing is that I’m not trying to de-convert anyone. I just want people to understand what many atheists go through on a day to day basis. Put yourself in our shoes. Understand what we go through. Be empathetic. Expand your morals.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are in the bullies’ side and you don’t understand. The Holy Bible is the supremely good thing on Planet Earth and brought the truth/quest for truth and human rights and liberty and public education into the Western civilization; it should never be banned but encouraged to be read and studied by everyone. White men’s former Christendom is the only society on earth that hates the society’s long-standing conscience, repaying the good with evil. All other civilizations respect their own hard-working ancestors.

            What’s wrong with you guys? Wake up. Stop hating the Christianity, the only good and right religion on Planet Earth. Secular Westerners hate Christianity only because the Post-christian Western culture is too immoral and too decadent. You guys have no morality other than Christianity and need the Holy Bible forever to act humane. Otherwise, the rich powerful West will oppress the world population for being Christian and opposing the mentally-ill homosexual immorality.

          • Jason

            I am not being a bully; I wish everyone would treat everyone the same. I do not hate Christianity 🙂 again, I would like to see in my life time a world where everyone treat everyone equally…. including religious people treating others with different views as equals… and including non-religious people being hateful as well.
            We don’t need a theocracy; we need respect. I don’t care where you think you get your morals, you obviously don’t care where I think morals derive from.
            So let’s agree to disagree: let’s keep religion in homes and churches and keep education in public schools. These kids are our future, so let’s make them smart 🙂
            And why do you care if someone else finds another of the same sex attractive? How is it hurting you?… remember, we need respect… not theocracy. I don’t like mushrooms, but I’m not going around trying to slap them off everyone’s fork 😉 respect.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            No, you don’t wish such nice thing. Humans especially children do not learn equality apart from the Holy Bible. USA is a theocracy, like all other European nations are. Its founding documents and athems praise God and ask for His reign and blessings – a theocracy. Westerners have no morality apart from Christianity; you guys only have some filthy porn stories as your own. Public schools need Bible education for children to be proper and educated.

            Western Sodom forces homosexuality and it threatens poor countries with its filthy money and power. Western Sodom thinks everyone has to obey them or something. No more slavery. I hope President Trump will end the madness. There is no respect apart from theocracy. Secularists blaspheme and corrupt humanity and kill unborn children. Please stop lying to me. You need to repent of your unbelief to get saved. Read Psalm 14 and John chapter 3.

          • Jason

            I was trying to have a decent conversation but you threw that out the window.
            No one is lying here. You believe what you think is true and believe what I think is true. No lying involved… but I will say both of can’t be right so one of us is wrong 🙂
            “Children do not learn equality apart from the Holy Bible.” That’s like saying children can’t learn mathematics without Dr Seuss. It doesn’t make sense.
            United States is not a theocracy; that is why we have the 1st amendment of the US constitution.
            Did you say we have filthy poem stories for our morality?
            ….?
            ………….? ……………………………….???? What?

            Whatever that’s… WAIT!!!
            DID YOU SAY WESTERNERS ARE FORCING HOMOSEXUALITY ON OTHERS!?!?!? hahahahaha
            I can’t do this. You and I are way to far apart on our understanding of the universe and science and history and … you know what? If anti-doppelgängers was a real thing, you would be my anti-me 🙂 Good luck. Take care… it’s been fun… And funny

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            All the ideologies/religions/philosophies on earth teach humans to abuse others one way or another except for the Judeo-Christian values. The Holy Bible alone teaches mankind the right and civilized thing. You didn’t know that because you didn’t learn things properly. US Constitution guarantees everyone’s living out the Christian faith; the Founders never knew that the future Americans would live for homosexuality out of malice and boredom. Liberal USA threatens and funds infanticide and homosexuality in the world. Know what your homeland is doing to Earthlings. Hopefully your President Trump would halt the insane evil.

          • Jason

            You are sinking hard in the deep end of a pool.

            “All the ideologies/religions/philosophies on earth teach humans to abuse others one way or another.” We can remove ideologies and philosophies to narrow it down to most the religions… to include Christianity (I say most because the are many many many religions out there and I don’t know all of them. For instance, Jainism is a very peaceful religion; do they teach about abuse somewhere in their doctrine? I don’t know.)

            Equality of opportunity is an ideology;
            Social democracy;
            Work ethics.
            Even common sense is an ideology.
            No abuse there.
            There are five main branches of philosophy: metaphysics, Epistemology, ethics, politics, and esthetics.
            No abuse there.

            You think American homosexuals are attracted to each other because of hatred and idle hands? …. 🙂 You got to stop this. I’m burning to many calories laughing.

            We Americans do not persecute anyone. We simply point out people’s hatred, and use the court system to ensure others are following the law. I don’t care if you are non-supportive of equal rights, I wish you were, but you will respect others and treat them equally… or end up in court… which is no bueno 🙂

            “Racists are better than pervs,” that says a lot about you and your character. Rasists have been known to kill and murder others of different ethnicities. When was the last time you seen a gay person kill other because of their sexual orientation? You are not a nice person. Hope you don’t end up in court someday.

            Good luck with life. My advice for you is to stay indoors 🙂

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Jason, you are wrong. Americans and Britons would have been another case of illiterate savages if they had no Christianity. Religions restrain humanity’s evil to some extent but they all have serious defects; Judeo-Christianity alone brought mankind the glory and holiness of the one true living God, His love and forgiveness, the Divine Saviour’s salvation, love for the enemy humans, freedom to be right and do good, equality of all persons, universal literacy to be able to read God’s Word, and lawfulness based on the Ten Commandments. Westerners should not claim all the Bible doctrines as if they got it by yourselves; Christianity made you civilized. You were primitive and were taught by the Church to be good.

          • Jason

            Ok, where to start? 5 posts, wow. I guess let’s start from the beginning.

            Educated wrong? How so?

            “Westerners stole all the good and vital noble ideas from the Holy Bible…” like what?

            “the Origin of everything good and noble and right” that’s funny 🙂

            “deceived by the villains on earth.” Who are you referring to when you say “the villains of the earth?”

            You keep saying perv. I know what a pervert is, but what are you referring to?

            “Christian fundies are the only people who can protect gays.” Protect gays? It’s religious nut jobs that are their biggest threat. The majority of homosexual violence and murders are religious based.

            “homosexual sins only bring them diseases, suicide and eternal damnations.” Many homosexual suicides are because of their childhood religious indoctrination. They are mentally and emotionally torn apart by how they feel and how their religion thinks they should feel. And in many cases it pushes them to suicide.

            “Every Earthling is a racist.” I am not a racist.

            “The Westerners have no rights to demand mankind to accept the Western depraved immorality, no matter how good-looking and rich and powerful they are.” Don’t know what you are talking about.

            “The Western nations should be in court for pushing destructive immorality upon the global children…” are you referring to homosexuality? No one is pushing homosexuality to the children 🙂 that’s weird.

            “blood money.” …?

            “Enough of slavery by Western pervs.” Slavery?

            “You guys are not sorry for anything.” I feel sorry that we as a nation elected Trump and Pence. We took 20 steps back with equal rights and environmental issues.

            “Listen to the Bible-believing Christians in your land.” I do listen and they all sound crazy.

            “Americans( all rich secular nationals for that matter) engage in homosexuality because…” your nine reasons are completely wrong and includes everyone in over 30 countries. I’m not sure where you live, but if it’s a secular country then you should be introducing yourself with a hand shake and a good ole’ same-sex orgy.

            “Americans and Britons would have been another case of illiterate savages if they had no Christianity.” Bible did not teach me to read. That doesn’t make sense 🙂

            “universal literacy.” What?

            “lawfulness based on the Ten Commandments.” How many laws are based on the 10 commandments?

            “Christianity made you civilized.” Religion in general was an important step in human civilization, but in today’s world it is outdated and not needed.

            Woo, that was a lot but I roughed threw it. You have some crazy ideas. Please promise me you won’t drink the community punch. I worry about you.

            -I probably have a couple misspelling, but I’m not re-reading my post

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Jason, you’ve been brainwashed by the liberals. Read the Holy Bible and get the life-saving truth and break free from the slavery. You must repent of your sins to return to God to get saved. Read John chapter 3.

          • Jason

            You are my anti-me 🙂 your post is completely backwards. Watch.

            Grace, you have been brainwashed by the conservatives. Read a text book and learn the real truth about the world. We must prevent climate change in order to save this planet. Read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.

            🙂

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are wrong. Liberals are lying. Everything is too late. Planet Earth will be nuked because mankind kill unborn children. Earth rejects murderers. Genesis chapter 4. Read also II Peter chapter 3. You must repent your unbelief to get saved.

          • Jason

            I don’t think you understand how nuclear missiles and war works. No one is stupid enough to launch a nuke because of abortion… wait, we do have a new president and cabinet… Ahhhhhh, were all going to die!

            “Liberals are lying.” Lying about what? Why do you think I’m lying?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            About everything, from the origin of things to the end of everything. You will perish in your own sin if you don’t repent – that is the message of the Word of God for you. Read the Gospel of John. Do something vital and worthy before it’s too late. Stop living for a lie, Jason.

          • Jason

            Everything? That’s a strong word. I have not lied to you once in this message board.

            If by origin of thing you mean how life on earth started, then let me clear up any misunderstandings. We don’t know how life started. No lying there 🙂

            If by end of thing you mean how humans will become extinct, then let me clear up any misunderstandings. We don’t know how we, as a species, will end. No lying there 🙂

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The fundamental things – it’s everything. God created life. John chapter 1. Colossians chapter 1. Nothingness creates/causes nothing, no matter how much time is spent. God created time as well. The Holy Bible clearly tells everyone who the Creator God is, how the world and humans came to be, what we are, and what all humans will become of. Read John chapter 3. Revelation chapter 20-22. It is the truth. You must repent of your unbelief to get saved. Read the Word of God.

          • Jason

            How do you know the Bible is correct?

            Define fundamental things. Things like what?

            “Nothingness creates/causes nothing, no matter how much time is spent.” We do not believe everything comes from nothing. We do not know where all matter comes from… but neither do you. No one does and we are ok with saying, “I don’t know.”

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The Holy Bible is lofty and unequally good and true. You’ll know if you read it. There is no saviour like Jesus Christ in this world. Christian Americans are good and Non-christian Americans are immoral. No exception. Christian West that went bad by losing Christianity is the mega proof in the entire universe that the Holy Bible is absolutely true and right. Fundamental things include: the identification of the one true living Creator God, origin of things especially live ones, nature of humanity and morality, conclusion of the world. The Holy Bible claims that God created it all, and the reality confirms the Biblical claims; therefore the Holy Bible is true. Atheists claim nothingness because they do not want to follow God but do evil and get away. Read Psalm 14.

          • Jason

            “Christian Americans are good and Non-christian Americans are immoral. No exception.” Your no exception rule does not stand up to reality. I can’t speak for Everyone, but I am not Christian, I am an American, and I stay true to my morals.

            “Christian West that went bad by losing Christianity is the mega proof in the entire universe that the Holy Bible is absolutely true and right.” That’s your “mega proof?” That doesn’t make s sense.

            “Fundamental things include: the identification of the one true living Creator God, origin of things especially live ones, nature of humanity and morality, conclusion of the world.” I don’t find your fundamental things that fundamental, but in any case I have not lied to you or anyone those four things.

            “and the reality confirms the Biblical claims.” That’s not a good argument.

            “Atheists claim nothingness because they do not want to follow God but do evil and get away.” Not true. I hold on making a claim until evidence shows it’s reasonable. Default position is to not believe in any of the 1000s of gods until that time. Nothing to do about evil. That’s silly. I could say you don’t believe in leprechauns because you like to murder transgender people, but I won’t because that doesn’t make sense. Same thing with your claim.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Non-christian Americans support homosexuality and abortion; it is immoral and sinful. Civilizations are big. The West was noble and respectable only when it was Christian. Atheists blaspheme and secularists force immorality and infanticide. Atheists are incorrect in all of life’s issues and they believe and spread lies that nothingness caused everything in existence.

            You’d never know anything vital unless you read the Holy Bible. Evidence is for the God of the Holy Bible 1,000%. If you claim Christians hurt the transgenders, that cannot be supported by the reality and facts because actually Christians are the only ones who protect gays and transgenders both spiritually and physically. All other kinds of humans harm them including themselves. Every man needs calls for repentance and the Gospel of Jesus Christ to obtain life.

          • Jason

            “Non-christian Americans support homosexuality and abortion” are you saying that only Christian Americans are against homosexuality and abortion? There are many people with many different backgrounds and beige on both sides of both arguments… but me personally, I’m for equally and fair treatment for all.

            “it is immoral” …to you 🙂

            “secularists force immorality and infanticide.” … on who?

            “Atheists are incorrect in all of life’s issues and they believe and spread lies that nothingness caused everything in existence.” That’s incorrect.

            “1,000%” that’s not how percentages work. That’s 10x more than possible 🙂

            “Christians are the only ones who protect gays and transgenders both spiritually and physically.” How so? More like mental abuse to the point of suicide.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Secularists support immorality and infanticide and suicide and force others to support the sins by fining and jailing the Christians who do not comply with the Sodomism. Christians pursue holiness and value everyone’s life unconditionally. Jesus is the Life. God condemns homosexuals to eternal damnation. Gays need calls for repentance and the Gospel of Jesus Christ to get saved; only Christians give it to them. Everyone has rights to declare God’s truth and live it out. 100% is only in this world. There are other dimentions.

          • Jason

            “Secularists support immorality and infanticide and suicide…” that’s a double stereotype. Not all secularists are atheists and not all atheists support abortion. That’s like saying all basketball players can’t swim.

            “force others to support the sins by fining and jailing the Christians who do not comply with the Sodomism” I don’t care if you are non-supportive of equal rights. Just leave them alone. The only reason why Christians, or anyone for that matter, would get fined or arrested for not supporting gay rights is when it dips into harassment and assault.

            “God condemns homosexuals to eternal damnation” that’s their problem. Leave them alone.

            “Gays need calls for repentance and the Gospel of Jesus Christ to get saved” that’s their problem. Leave them alone.

            “Everyone has rights to declare God’s truth and live it out” you are right. It’s the first amendment… free exercise of religion. Everyone also has the right to not believe. It works both ways… I mean all ways.

            “100% is only in this world. There are other dimensions.” ….what? You can only be 100% correct… no matter what dimension. Learn math 🙂

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Statistics and doctrines and observations. Secularists and atheists never value human life. To them, self’s happiness is important but human life is practically meaningless. They have no problem about the unborn children getting killed. The West’s present gay rights fundamentally cancel out the religious freedom of proclaiming and teaching God’s truth everywhere. Secular West overdid the civil rights by falsely giving the sin equal rights with the Good by putting colored people and sexually sinful people in the same category.

            Gays need salvation; telling the life-saving truth is always Christian responsibility. No-leaving anyone alone. Leaving people in perils is what evil secularism does to all including unborn children. Secular West persecutes Christians for speaking up the truth on the immoral culture and for refusing to serve the cultural sins. Today’s Western culture needs a fix by the Church like all others did, to become civilized again. There are other worlds which are not dictated by this world’s math.

          • Jason

            “Secularists and atheists never value human life.” Incorrect. I am both a secularist and an atheist and I greatly value human life… that is why I am also a humanist 🙂

            “To them, self’s happiness is important but human life is practically meaningless.” Incorrect. We give meanings to our own lives.

            “They have no problem about the unborn children getting killed.” Abortions are always a difficult decision for everyone in the affected party.

            “The West’s present gay rights fundamentally cancel out the religious freedom…” you are right equal rights have stepped on the freedom of those who want to harass, assault, and just being hateful to those who are different… for good reason.

            “Gays need salvation.” To you

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You don’t value human life; you don’t do anything to protect unborn children though they are the same humans. You seek only hedonism and nothing true or valuable. That’s why you attack Christians in a Christian site. An unborn child must never be killed unless the mother’s life is in phisical danger by carrying the term. Nothing difficult. Sin has no equal rights; secular Western culture destroys humanity’s morality starting from children. Your culture needs a fix by Christianity. I’m saved by repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. Your religion is hedonism; the West has been well-fed too long it no longer seeks what is good or right. Poor your Christian ancestors.

          • Jason

            “You don’t value human life.” I do as I just told you.

            “you don’t do anything to protect unborn children though they are the same humans.” I can say that you do nothing to protect the mother, as she is human.

            “You seek only hedonism and nothing true or valuable.” Incorrect 🙂

            “attack Christians in a Christian site.” Attaching? I merely ask questions and point out other’s hatred. No attack.

            You keep spouting claims without facts. You also keep telling me what I do and how I think. Why? How about ask and accept the answer. You don’t know me but I am more than willing to inform you of what I believe and why. 🙂

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Your claim is invalid unless you do something to protect unborn children. Yes, you attack the Christians by calling us names in Christian sites. If you have any honesty and decency, tell your atheist friends to stop bullying the Christians. I know you. You are a typical liberal teenager from a well-fed secular nation. Read the Holy Bible and seek the truth and life to save yourself, please. Read John chapter 14 and then come back.

          • Jason

            “Your claim is invalid unless you do something to protect unborn children.” What about the mother and father?

            “Yes, you attack the Christians by calling us names in Christian sites.” I can’t recall calling anyone names.

            Teenager? I wish. I hate bills 🙂

            “Read the Holy Bible” you still haven’t given a reasonable argument for its validity. It’s like me telling you to read Harry Potter.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Who are going to kill the parents? You call us bigots, racists, sexists, homophobia, Islamophobia, blah blah blah only when we are telling you the objective truths. Young secular Westerners sound alike, be it a teenager or young adult. The Holy Bible saves life. Harry Potter corrupts humanity. The difference is heaven and hell.

          • Jason

            “Who are going to kill the parents?” I didn’t say kill. I meant look at the whole story first. You don’t know the situation the parents are in, so you can’t say abortions are always wrong.

            “You call us bigots, racists, sexists, homophobia, Islamophobia, blah blah blah only when we are telling you some objective truths.” I did call you racist and sexist, but that’s because your comments were very racist and sexist. I don’t think all religious people are racist or sexist. And what “objective truths” are you talking about?

            What do you consider a young adult?

            “The Holy Bible saves life.” It’s also used as a tool to justify horrible acts… such as slavery… and child abuse.

            “Harry Potter corrupts humanity.” Try again.

            “The difference is heaven and hell” difference in what?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Abortion, except for the case of saving the mother’s physical life, is always wrong because it is murder of the child. Nothing complicated. Western liberals should not define what makes racists and sexists because liberals are always immoral and usually wrong. Objective truths are facts drawn from the entire Word of God and honest observations in the world. young adults = mostly 20’s and even 30’s. The Holy Bible brought salvation and human rights and freedom. The Westerners are illiterate savages just as well if they have no Bible. The Holy Bible leads people to Heaven and the books like Harry Potter lead readers to sins and damnations.

          • Jason

            “Nothing complicated.” It is complicated.

            “liberals should not define what makes racists and sexists because liberals are always immoral and usually wrong.” Definitions are pretty clear no matter who uses them. Calling liberals immoral is hateful… and incorrect.

            “Objective truths are facts drawn from the entire Word of God and honest observations in the world” do you mean scientific experiments? Agreed, but all biases must be removed in order for it to be considered objective… including religion.

            “young adults = mostly 20’s and even 30’s” I sitll got it.. by a thread. Time to hit the club 🙂

            The rest is nonsense.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Yes, liberals are immoral. They promote abortion and homosexuality which are sinful. Most of scientific experiments are observations. Even by observations alone, Christianity is proven to be true. Only atheists have bias to remove God, which they can’t because God’s truth prevails in reality. Don’t go to clubs but go to church to gain life. Drunkenness only destroys life. And stay true to your wife or your future wife. Keep purity.

          • Jason

            “Even by observations alone, Christianity is proven to be true. Only atheists have bias to remove God.” Explain

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Read the Holy Bible. Atheists hate Christianity because they want to continue their filthy autonomy by committing infanticide though they know their time on earth is limited. Those who want population control by killing babies should go hung themselves.

          • Jason

            “Read the Holy Bible.” That’s a bias 😉 an objective truth is true no matter who you are and no matter what you believe. The scientific method was developed to remove personal biases from discoveries.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You Westerners do not have morality apart from the Holy Bible. You guys hate Christianity and mock other religions by stupid pretence. Stop that. Post-christian West is hedonism and nothing else. Atheism and humanism only kill. You only have hope in Christianity.

          • Jason

            That’s not what we are talking about. We are talking about objective truths and religious biases. Stay on topic

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Quest for objective truth is the Western Christendom’s virtue made common by the Protestant Reformers. Atheists hide objective truth to deny God’s existence and secularists do the same to continue immorality and humanists do the same to kill the unborn children.

          • Jason

            Science is on the quest for understanding objective truths… using the scientific method, which is a great tool to remove biases. Christians, muslims, Hindus, anyone can use the scientific method and come to the same conclusion. That is why the scientific method is such a powerful and wonderful tool.

            Which truths do I hide? 🙂

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Yes, but Non-christians hide the truth. Biblical Christians alone believe in and exercise unconditional honesty. To some pagans and atheists, lying is regarded even as a virtue. You falsely claim nothingness created everything. Jason, why do you have so much time while working in military? Do something else such as reading good books.

          • Jason

            “why do you have so much time while working in military?” Good question, growing up my parents presented two good options: college or military. I chose college and drastically messed that up. I then chose to join the military to pay for the loans I accumulated. Now I plan to retire in a few years and start a new career… hopefully as a scientist 🙂

            I do not claim nothing created everything. I do not know how the universe started, but I would like to find out. All evidence shows that all matter, space, and time started in a central location and rapidly expanded from there. Why? I don’t know.

            I do read books. I prefer audiobooks to/from work. 🙂

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            I see. I grew up respecting all American soldiers because they rescued my home countries. My parents always told me that. And we were with the American missionaries! True saints. Americans sacrificed themselves so that we could have goodness and freedom. USA was a different nation back then, you know.

            It was normal for a man too seek what is good and right back then – no boasting of doing evil at all. Americans cared for the truth and noble character more than anything else, not money. Third World’s people care about money always and remain someone else’s slaves because of that. Western Christendom was not like that. Sadly, the noble Americans have changed over the last few decades.

            You are too young to know or identify the Western civilization’s true greatness. Your parents probably could not tell because they grew up in the West. Something is clearer to outsiders. Today’s secular Westerners have no clue. It’s unbelievable to see what the noble white men have become of this century, dressing like women and wanting to go into women’s washrooms to violate women and children. They should all get locked in a mental hospital.

            If you are going to be a real scientist, you must believe in God though the belief in God will expel you from the academia. The Holy Bible declares that God created everything. Everything is moving but God said He wil make it to halt someday. The Holy Bible talks about natural physics a great deal, though what is vital for you is to know how to get saved. I enjoy sci-fi books, but you must read Christian books. They truly benefit you and take you to a different universe and a different dimention.

          • Jason

            Well, I’m glad our nation was able to help.

            “dressing like women and wanting to go into women’s washrooms to violate women and children.” That is not what’s happening. Transgendered people just want a man use the bathroom in private like anyone else. But I agree that rapists should be locked up. It’s wrong. But if your saying that rapists can violate men and children in the men’s bathroom, then that is wrong.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Everyone should live according to the birth gender. Period. Is it okay for all Earthlings who feel like American come to America and claim all the territories? If people endorse everyone’s false feelings, there will be only chaos. Truth first. What you Ex-christian species need the most is quest for the truth.

          • Jason

            “birth gender.” Sex and gender are two different things. I believe you mean “birth sex,” which is what you look like on the outside… and people’s biggest complaint.

            Now, imagine you woke up and you notice you are now the opposite sex. It would feel very awkward and miserable. You would have to lie to everyone and yourself of who you are based on your new body. This feeling is gender misalignment. Boy brains and girl brains are different and sometimes they are in the wrong body. Transgender people simply realign their brains with their body. What’s wrong with that?

            “Is it okay for all Earthlings who feel like American come to America and claim all the territories?” This country was founded by immigrants, understands the importants of immigration, and welcomes new immigrants.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Sex and gender are the same thing. God created people male and female, and science confirms the reality. Feeling otherwise is a mental defect, and normal people should not be forced to deny the reality and truths to appease mentally-ill people. There is no wrong body. Denying the birth gender is living out a falsehood and needs continous education to be right with God and to face reality.

            Anyone can live with reality that if the liberals stop indoctrination-by-falsehood. You are wrong on America and nationhood in general. Only American citizens are real Americans and can possess America, and Non-Americans have other nations to live in. Liberal Americans lack patriotism because they are immoral and neither study US history or the world history and do not care about the homeland’s protection and well-being.

          • Jason

            “Sex and gender are the same thing.” Incorrect. Sex is based on genitalia while gender is a reflection of one’s self. When I look in my eyes in a mirror I see a male. And when I look down below I also see male. Some people don’t have that alignment of self and body.

            “There is no wrong body.” ?? What about those born with both male and female sex organs?

            “Only American citizens are real Americans.” Technically, that’s why we have a path to citizenship for all immigrants in our country.

            “Liberal Americans lack patriotism.” You keep saying weird things. I love this country 🙂

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            So it’s a mental problem, and the well-fed bored Western culture uses them to oppress the entire mankind by installing falsehood and by bending the truth and human conscience. Poor mankind will have to watch what other insanity the rich Western pervs will come up with every few decades. Sad.

            You guys should stop being bored and also stop seeking warped amusement out of the boredom. Starve yourself for a week or something to taste a real life on Planet Earth, working to earn the daily bread.

            The case you are talking about is extremely rare like one in zillions; no excuse for the present West’s common depravity. It’s way too common. Not all immigrants are citizens. Every normal nation protects the citizens first. You don’t love your country; if you do, you’d be concerned about your fellow citizens’ safety especially if you belong to military. Your anything-goes attitude is the proof you don’t care about USA’s standing.

          • Jason

            “So it’s a mental problem.” More difficult than that. It is who they are as a person.

            “You guys should stop being bored.” I have zero free time 🙂

            “stop seeking warped amusement out of the boredom.” Nothing funny about basic rights.

            “Starve yourself for a week or something to taste a real life on Planet Earth.” I don’t have to. I have an idea what starving feels like, it’s called empathy… which is why I enjoy feeding the homeless 🙂

            “Not all immigrants are citizens.” Immigrants are not citizens until they complete the final step of citizenship process (oath of allegiance.)

            “Every normal nation protects the citizens first.” Correct, but here in America immigrants have constitutional rights as well. some or all? I’m not sure.

            I do love my country 🙂 safety is always a concern, but so is following our constitution.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Teaching the truth is respecting every person. Endorsing falsehood harms everyone. The West is full and horribly bored; that’s why it forces mankind immorality and mental illness. Needy people cannot become crazy; only the bored rich become abusive. You should be responsible for your own crazy people. Non-citizens should not dictate the USA. Earthlings abuse the USA because the liberal whites and their mental servants mislead people. It’s unconstitutional to endanger Americans knowingly, but that’s exactly what the liberals do.

          • Jason

            Everything you said… completely wrong. You keep saying the same thing over and over again. It’s tiresome

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Americans have rights to safety just like all other nationals do in their own nations. Liberal Americans are the ones who should immigrate to other nations if they so dislike President Trump and America’s own safety.

          • Jason

            I don’t t want to leave. This is my home and I want to make it better for my kids than I had it. And hopefully they do the same. That’s how progress is made.

            Ooohhh! you are talking about trump’s Muslim ban. I thought you were talking about regular immigration. Yeah the muslim ban is a horrible idea… and unconstitutional 🙂

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The Muslims must change their doctrines on the infidels. Liberal men are naive and cannot protect anyone. They are too busy placing men in women’s restrooms; to them security is always another man’s problem.

          • Jason

            “The Muslims must change their doctrines.” Religious text do not change; Only become outdated and die. But just like moderate Christians trying to cling onto whatever relevant parts of their books, there are moderate muslims who are good people but just won’t just let go. They don’t use their books to justify murder just like moderate Christians abandoned the verses that justify child abuse and discrimination. We want those people in America. We can’t fight hate with hate. It only makes more hate.

            “They are too busy placing men in women’s restrooms.” Well, if you wouldn’t make a big deal out of simple rights, then it wouldn’t be a problem. 🙂

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are wrong fundamentally. All religions and ideologies and philosophies hurt great number of innocent humans if followed faithfully. Biblical Christianity alone is the only religion and a system that grants everyone human rights and freedom and safety and justice if followed faithfully. Paganisms oppresses humanity and Western secularism corrupts humanity starting with the children population. And men should not enter into women’s restrooms, Period. Ex-christian West regressed on that point by endangering its own women and children.

          • Jason

            “All religions… hurt great number of innocent humans if followed faithfully.” Correct 🙂

            “And men should not enter into women’s restrooms, Period. Ex-christian West regressed on that point by endangering its own women and children.” Are talking about rapists again? One, women can also be rapists. They are not excluded from the crime. Two, why is ok for rapists to be in male restrooms? Transgendered people are not rapists… by default (I don’t know them as a person) 🙂

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The worst criminals are atheism and the Western secularism among all religions. Rapists are almost always males and the Western culture should not let men into the women’s restrooms. Men are physically more powerful even if they are feminized.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Americans( all rich secular nationals for that matter) engage in homosexuality because: 1) have too much food to spare all the time everywhere. 2) have no real parents. 3) fed by the government instead of working. 4) have no virgin women to marry. 5) surrounded by Westernized women behaving like men and showing skin in public like some madmen. 6) educated to despise Christianity, the Earth’s only sane conscience. 7) Drugged to seek new warped sansations all the time. 8) Being terribly bored and have nothing to do.

            Read Romans chapter 1. It talks about how modern secular Americans became homosexuals. You guiys have been too well-fed for the longest time and think every Earthling must obey you or something, though America is no longer Christian-good. Your pitiful normal white Christian ancestors. Happy is a man whose descendants are not godless secular Westerners. You guys need Christianity to be human again.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Every Earthling is a racist but not every Earthling is a perv. The Westerners have no rights to demand mankind to accept the Western depraved immorality, no matter how good-looking and rich and powerful they are. The Western nations should be in court for pushing destructive immorality upon the global children, because the West is behaving like the abusive rich who rape poor people’s children. God will punish the Western Sodom for justice to be honored. Mankind have freedom to have access to the Holy Bible and to live it out and to keep sane morality. Hopefully President Trump will halt some of American liberals’ atrocities in the world. Listen to the Bible-believing Christians in your land; they are the only sane people you have.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Christian fundies are the only people who can protect gays. All other humans including gays themselves harm them. Gays need the proclamation of God’s truth to repent of sins and to trust in Jesus Christ for salvation and liberation. Endorsement and encouragement of sins only bring them diseases, suicide and eternal damnations.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Jason, you are in grave errors because you’ve been educated wrong. Westerners stole all the good and vital noble ideas from the Holy Bible and pretend they invented them all. If you don’t read the Holy Bible, the Origin of everything good and noble and right, you will continue to be deceived by the villains on earth. You have normal noble ancestors, but today’s West hates Christianity because the civilization desires to be a perv instead of listening to God’s truth. Well-fed bored Post-christian is far more evil than barbaric Pre-christian. You guys need Christianity to get your sanity back.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            I went to public schools, and no one said anything about sodomy or atheism.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            It’s recent decades that the secular West indoctrinate the children with immorality and Sodomy, and you always complied with the atheists anyway; that’s why you did not notice anything.

  • BeBeX

    Dictionary for Dummies 101, elective means: chosen by the student rather than compulsory. Since this mother does not want her child to have outside influence, then the mother needs to homeschool. Everyday her child is in PUBLIC school she will be subject to massive influences.

    Separation of Church and state is a sham. Go to Washington D.C. and see all the biblical references written in stone on buildings, monuments, halls and offices. Every human on the planet has a belief system. Just because we may not agree, does not make it null and void.

    • https://disqus.com/home/channel/atheismftw/ Ian Cooper

      So what you’re saying is that there have been a lot of abuses of the government throughout the years. Yes, there are lots of Biblical references, and it will take time to remove them all. But they must be removed if the ideals of America are to mean anything.
      What makes religion null and void is not that there is disagreement, but rather that there is no evidence for any religion being true.

  • tatoo

    The school district is going to lose big bucks. Hallelujah!

    • Jason Todd

      How do you know?

      • MarkSebree

        History of these types of cases. The school will have to pay not only their own expenses by the plaintiffs. There is a long line of jurisprudence supporting her position and against the school’s.

        • Jason Todd

          1) I didn’t ask you.

          2) The reasoning behind the lawsuit won’t stand up in court.

          • MarkSebree

            1) in an open forum, anyone can chime in.

            2) The reasoning behind the lawsuit has stood up in court before, and will again. Many times, in fact.

          • Jason Todd

            Prove it. With citations.

          • MarkSebree

            I doubt that you would believe or understand any of them. Apparently, from what I have seen, you reject the facts even when they are spoon fed to you.

            However, here are some court cases:
            Brown vs Board of Education
            Engel vs Vitale
            Abington School District vs Schempp
            Epperson vs Arkansas
            Edwards vs. Aguillard
            Kitzmiller et al. vs Dover
            Sante Fe Independent School District vs Doe
            Stone vs Graham
            Chamberlin v. Public Instruction Board

            This list should give you a start.

          • Jason Todd

            No, I said provide citations of cases that were built purely on speculation, like this one, where the school lost.

            This general list proves nothing. And they are all unconstitutional anyway.

          • MarkSebree

            Actually, that is not a true ad hominem. I made an observation based on your own words and attitude. And I provided you with a number of cases, just as you asked for. You apparently disregarded the cases that I posted for you, which in turn actually proved my point.

            You, however, do regularly engage in ad hominem attacks. You have not shown that I am lying, godless, anti-christian, or a bigot. What’s more, your assertions are not true. That is just a way for you to dismiss everything that I said and all the cases I provided for you, and in doing so you also proved my point.

            Something else that I have noticed is that so-called “strict constitutionalists” only accept their own, person definition and interpretation of the US Constitution. They do not care about the law, about any court cases which disagree with their opinions, or especially with existing jurisprudence. They will even completely disregard the Constitution if it disagrees with their position. These people are usually also theocrats and want to dismantle the US Constitution and change the USA into the “Christian States of America” with their oppressive, hateful version of Christianity in control and everyone else that does not kowtow to your version of your believes must be punished and made to suffer.

          • Jason Todd

            Actually, that is not a true ad hominem.

            Your intent was to imply I was stupid.

            And I provided you with a number of cases, just as you asked for. You apparently disregarded the cases that I posted for you, which in turn actually proved my point.

            No, I asked you to provide proof of cases that were brought forward solely and specifically through speculation. You did not do that, or explain how those cases were relevant.

            You, however, do regularly engage in ad hominem attacks.

            If you have a problem with not being called a liar, etc, the best place to start would be to not act as such.

            First off, in the comments for “Atheist Activist Group Urges Trump to Keep God Out of Inauguration,” posted here on this website, you are seen arguing with Amos Moses against the existence of God.

            Or how about “The biggest victim under a President Trump? Freedom of religion” at TheHill?

            This is what you said to Josephine Harkay:

            Really? I thought you said that you were consulting the Bible. Thats is an ancient mythology full of intolerance misogyny, racism, bigotry, genocide, pettiness, and all manner of other ills. Just because a single like says to lover your neighbor does not excuse the rest of the mythology.
            There are many religions that contain some parts that say that one should care about one’s neighbors. It is not a unique philosophy to Christianity, and never was. Heck, the Five Pillars of Islam could have been taken from the Gospel.

            Yeah. And then we can go to your own post, which I am responding to:

            These people are usually also theocrats and want to dismantle the US Constitution and change the USA into the “Christian States of America” with their oppressive, hateful version of Christianity in control and everyone else that does not kowtow to your version of your believes must be punished and made to suffer.

            So I called you a lying, godless, anti-Christian bigot because you are acting like one.

            I am sure there are medicines to help you cope with the butthurt.

            Something else that I have noticed is that so-called “strict constitutionalists” only accept their own, person definition and interpretation of the US Constitution. They do not care about the law, about any court cases which disagree with their opinions, or especially with existing jurisprudence.

            Maybe that is because we are fascinated by how people in black robes can somehow find in the Constitution the phrase, “separation of church and state” and a right to abortion and same sex marriage, but they cannot seem to locate freedom of religion and keeping and bearing arms. When judges place political agendas over and above the Constitution, people are going to have a tendency to ignore them.

          • MarkSebree

            “Your intent was to imply I was stupid.”

            More like ill-informed and closed minded. You wish to remain willfully ignorance of the facts and reality.

            “No, I asked you to provide proof of cases that were brought forward solely and specifically through speculation. You did not do that, or explain how those cases were relevant.”

            There were on topic for the stated subject. You have already had several of the cases explained to you by AmbulanceChaser, and you did not accept his explanations. The proof requires reading the ruling opinions for understanding, and you do not seem to wish to understand. Additionally, an explanation would take up hundreds of lines in this site, and if the site did not delete it because of length, you still would not read it for comprehension because of the length.

            “If you have a problem with not being called a liar, etc, the best place to start would be to not act as such.”

            You have called me a liar, but you have completely failed to show that I am lying about anything. Probably because I am telling the truth that you cannot face. That makes your claim an ad hominem attack, as well as a lie on your part.

            “First off, in the comments for “Atheist Activist Group Urges Trump to Keep God Out of Inauguration,” posted here on this website, you are seen arguing with Amos Moses against the existence of God.”

            Because he makes the bald claim without anything objective to back it up and expects everyone to accept his opinions as “fact” just because he expresses them. He relies exclusively on logical fallacies like appeals to faith, appeals to popularity, appeals to tradition, appeals to ignorance, and others. In challenging him in that manner, I help to show that he has nothing to support his claims, and thus his claims and position are dismissible.

            It is a pretty standard debating technique, and if you noticed, I never stated that any deity exists or does not exist. I stated that there is no objective evidence that any deity exists, and I challenged him to provide some. Claiming that “everything is evidence of god” is a cop-out because there are other explanations that do not require any deity to exist, and it is not objective in any case.

            My statement to Josephine Harkay is the truth. All those things that I mentioned are found in the Bible without a problem. What’s more, my statement about other religions is also accurate. And the Five Pillars of Islam are: sincerely reciting the Muslim profession of faith, performing ritual prayers in the proper way 5 times a day, paying alms to the poor and needs, fasting during Ramadan, and a pilgrimage to Mecca. The charity should need no explanation. Christianity has ritual prayers as well, and in some denominations or clerical professions, those include praying several times a day. Change “Mecca” to “Jerusalem”, or some other holy site, and it becomes believable for Christianity. And Lent is very similar to Ramadan in the fasting or “giving something up” aspect, and is about as long.

            I did not say that they were the same, I said that something like the 5 Pillars would fit quite well into Christianity.

            “So I called you a lying, godless, anti-Christian bigot because you are acting like one.”

            Stating the truth does not make me a liar by definition. Nor does it make me “godless”. And in case you did not notice, I specified a narrow subcategory of Christians, theocrats and dominionists, who want to get rid of religious freedom and make the USA a theocracy or theonomy, with their oppressive version of Christianity in control. Look up “Seven Mountains Dominionism” in google and read for yourself. They want to control every aspect of people’s lives, INCLUDING religious belief.

            “I am sure there are medicines to help you cope with the butthurt.”

            Sorry, but unlike you, I am not “butthurt”. I have the truth and the facts on my side.

            “Maybe that is because we are fascinated by how people in black robes can somehow find in the Constitution the phrase, “separation of church and state” and a right to abortion and same sex marriage, ”

            The phrase “separation of church and state” is a shorthand for the concept and principles which are enumerated in multiple places in the US Constitution. The principles were given this shorthand name by several of our Founding Fathers.

            Article IV, Section 2: The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.

            Article VI: no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

            First Amendment, Establishment Clause: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion
            Note: This means that Congress and the federal government cannot show favoritism or disparagement towards any religion or religious beliefs. This clause, and many others, were extended to the state and local government by the 14th Amendment. This clause applies to the government and government agents while they are representing the government. The Establishment Clause is meant to prevent government agents from denying people their rights because those individuals belong to a minority religion or no religion.

            First Amendment, Conscious Clause: Congress shall make no law … prohibiting the free exercise [of religion]
            Note: This clause means that the government, federal here and local in the 14th Amendment, cannot prevent the people from following their own religious beliefs. When there is a conflict between the Conscious Clause and the Establishment Clause, as happens with disturbing regularity, the Establishment Clause has precedence because it is more narrowly defined and comes first in the Amendment. Yes, order is important in law.

            Amendment IX: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
            Note: The Constitution is not a complete list of the rights of the people.

            Amendment X: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
            Note: Powers that are not reserved for the federal government or prohibited to the states are either reserved for the states or reserved for the people.

            Amendment XIV, Section 1: Equal Rights and Equal Protections Clauses: No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
            Note: These clauses extend the protections and rights that people have under the federal government and US Constitution to the state and local level as well. Also, the limitations that are placed on the federal government, such as under the Establishment Clause, are placed on the state and local governments.

            These various sections and clauses of the US Constitution form the basis for the Separation of Church and State, and the Amendments only strengthen that divide.

            Regarding same sex marriage, these same clauses for much of the basis for that decision as well. It is a fact that under state and federal law, marriage defines a great many rights and responsibilities of a couple who decide to get married. At the federal level, there are over 1100 such laws, and when added to the state laws in a particular state, it is likely to be over 2000. When deciding cases which depend on deciding whether a minority is entitles to some rights, there are several questions that are asked.
            First, does giving these rights to the minority take away any rights of the majority. In the case of same sex marriage, the answer is “No”. Allowing homosexual couples to get married does not affect the right of heterosexual couples to get married, nor does it affect their existing marriages.
            Second, does denying these rights to the minority cause them undue hardship? The answer in the case of same sex marriage was “Yes”. There are cases where couples who were married in one state could not divorce in another, spouses being denied hospital visitation because they were a same sex couple, being treated different by the IRS regarding taxes and death benefits, being treated differently by insurance corporations because they were not “legally married” in the state that they were in, legal marriages not being recognized across state lines, marriages to foreign nationals not being recognized and fast-tracked like similar heterosexual marriages are, and so on.
            Third, is there any secular reasons why the minority cannot enjoy the rights of the majority? Remember, the government cannot favor any religion or religious denomination. There were quite a number of Christian denominations that have no problem with homosexuals or performing same sex marriages. And the government cannot demand that any religion perform such ceremonies which are against the beliefs of that religion or denomination. So, the answer to the third question is “No”. The best anti-same sex marriage lawyers in the country could not come up with any non-religious reasons to deny same sex couples the same right to marry as heterosexuals couples take for granted.

            As far as abortion goes, many of the same clauses apply, especially the religion clauses, as well as some others.
            Amendment XIII: Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
            Forcing women to continue unwanted pregnancies is a form of involuntary servitude to the state. These women have not been accused or or convicted of any crime, yet they are being punished because they are women.

            Amendment XIV: Section 1: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
            Embryos and fetuses have not been born, thus are not citizens of the USA. The woman has been born, is an American citizen, and thus has the right to equal protection under the law. The Equal Rights and Equal Protections clauses also mean that she cannot be forced to into involuntary servitude to the state as punishment for being a pregnant women.

            The right to privacy is derived from Amendment IV.

            And there is a basic human right that is enumerated in many of our laws, especially the ones that deal with assault. A person has the right to defend him or herself from ANY unwanted and nonconsensual use and/or abuse of the person’s body. These laws include the fact that consent must be conscious and CONTINUOUS. Consent may be rescinded at any time for any reason. In an unwanted or dangerous pregnancy, the embryo is using and abusing the woman’s body. While lasting physical, emotional, and/or financial harm is not necessary for an assault to occur, lasting physical harm does occur in almost all pregnancies, and unwanted pregnancies that he woman is forced to endure can and do cause lasting emotional and financial harm as well.

            ” [Judges] cannot seem to locate freedom of religion”
            Actually, most judges seem to locate it quite well. The government does not have freedom of religion, which means that agents of the government while acting under the color of government authority do not. However, individuals do have freedom of religion, which includes the freedom to not have unwanted religious beliefs and observances imposed on them by the government. When government agents are no longer “on the clock”, “not in uniform”, or otherwise in a position where a reasonable observer might believe that they were acting under the color of government authority, they are free to follow any religious beliefs that they want.

            “[Judges] cannot seem to locate … keeping and bearing arms.”
            Again, from what I have seen, judges seem to be able to locate that right without a problem. However, I think that you do not know the Second Amendment as well as you think you do. Here is the text:
            “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
            Notice the first clause in the Amendment, “A WELL REGULATED militia”? That means that the Amendment itself gives Congress and the government the power to regulate “Arms”. That first clause is usually left out by the NRA and similar groups. Reasonable regulations should be passed with respect to firearms. There is no reason why civilians should have assault rifles, for example. Bolt action and semi-automatic rifles, as well as shotguns for hunting, sport shooting, and homestead defense make sense. Revolvers and semi-automatic pistols up to .45 caliber make sense for personal and security use. Background checks to keep firearms out of the hands of criminals and the mentally unstable makes sense. However, extended clips, assault rifles, machine guns, and similar items do not make sense for most individuals who are not in the military or police departments.

            “When judges place political agendas over and above the Constitution, people are going to have a tendency to ignore them.”
            Actually, wise people keep an eye out for them, and work to prevent them from gaining more power than they have. Alito, Roberts, Thomas, and Scalia of the US Supreme Court, not to mention dozens to hundreds of far right wing judges across the country in inferior courts, have placed their personal, religious, and/or political agendas over and above the US Constitution. They have been demolishing the rights of the people, and ruling for increased power to corporations and the government with reduced oversight. Trump’s pick of Gorsuch is of the same mold, based on his written opinions on the 10th circuit court, which is not good news for the American people. That is why Americans of conscious, who love and value our freedoms, rights, and liberties, need to speak out against him and any other judge in the same vein. Truthfully, Merrick, President Obama’s pick to replace Scalia, should be the one before the Judiciary committee and the Senate. And before you give McConnell’s lie about the President not getting to pick the next Supreme Court justice in his last/eighth year of office, let me point out that Justice Kennedy, a currently sitting Supreme Court Justice, was selected by President Ronald Reagan in HIS eighth year of office, 1988, and with a similar amount of time left before he left office.

          • Jason Todd

            You have called me a liar, but you have completely failed to show that I am lying about anything. Probably because I am telling the truth that you cannot face. That makes your claim an ad hominem attack, as well as a lie on your part.

            These people are usually also theocrats and want to dismantle the US Constitution and change the USA into the “Christian States of America” with their oppressive, hateful version of Christianity in control and everyone else that does not kowtow to your version of your believes must be punished and made to suffer.

            This statement alone shows the only liar around here is you.

            If you were so sure of being able to win a debate, you would not need to turn to intellectual dishonesty and flat out, bald-faced lies.

            Enough.

            Blocked.

          • MarkSebree

            “This statement alone shows the only liar around here is you.”

            Telling the truth means that I am not a liar. I have looked into the ideology of Seven Mountains Dominonism. Have you? According to their extremist beliefs, they are REQUIRED to take control of the “Seven Mountains” of society and culture, which are Arts & Entertainment, Business, Education, Family, Government, Media, and Religion. Tell me this, what is left that they would not control from that list? The military? That is part of the government. Media includes the news, books, magazines, and the internet. And the internet also crosses over into Arts and Entertainment. These people want a theocratic government with them in charge. their version of Christianity is narrow-minded, isolationistic, xenophobic, misogynistic, anti-science, intolerant, authoritarian, and oppressive.

            You not being able to face the truth does not make me a liar. You have only engaged in an ad hominem attack, and then ran away with your tail between your legs. If you think that I am a liar, THEN PROVE IT BY COUNTERING MY ARGUMENTS WITH OPPOSING FACTS.

            “If you were so sure of being able to win a debate, you would not need to turn to intellectual dishonesty and flat out, bald-faced lies.”

            Your inability to accept the truth and the facts does not make my statements into lies. However, you calling me a liar without even trying to show that I am lying or mistaken about anything I have said does tend to show you to be dishonest and juvenile. I have been intellectually honest, and I have told the truth. That is why you cannot counter anything I said in an intelligent and reasoned manner.

            From your previous post, I countered pretty much every claim that you made in detail, with explanations and counter examples. I supported my statements and positions intelligently and reasonably. You, on the other hand, could just call me a liar, and run away without even giving the basest support to support your claim. You seem to think that claiming that I am wrong and a liar, without any support for your accusation, is sufficient. That is why you lost.

        • Ambulance Chaser

          He’s a very angry man.

          • MarkSebree

            I have noticed. He cannot seem to handle reality. Neither can Grace Kim Kwon, for that matter.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            I don’t think Grace knows what reality is.

  • JustThink

    This is very peculiar. If she is an atheist, that means she shares the atheist belief that reading the Bible will turn people into atheists. So she should be encouraging study of the Bible at an early age, on the assumption that these children will turn into atheists.

    • Ambulance Chaser

      It doesn’t mean that at all. There is no requirement to being an atheist that says you must think that reading the Bible turns people into an atheist.

    • Jason

      Stereotype

  • Robert

    GODS people is the reason we even have atheists . People are to blame for atheism and not God. Atheism is a result of eating the forbidden fruit in the garden. We’re reaping the discontent THAT Gods first two people who had every thing good showed to God. And we are no better we prove that with all types of sins that we christians also do.

    • Jason

      I didn’t have a problem your post (although I did it agree everything) until you mention no evolution in public schools.
      Evolution is taught in science class because evolution is scientific… and true. As science advances children will be taught more accurate models of the universe and will grow up, discover more things, and teach their kids. It’s an exciting circle of intellectual growth.

      • Robert

        Evolution Will alway be a theory
        They can’t and never have proved it. They dome a lot of lying trying to prove it to.

        • Jason

          Correction: evolution by natural selection is the theory. Evolution is a fact.

          By observing the evidence scientifically (removing biases by following the scientific method) scientists have concluded evolution to be true. It’s the mechanism of evolution is the theory.

          Gravity is a theory because we do not fully understand how it work, but we know it’s real.

          • Robert

            Evolution it self is only theory and will never be proved. And should not be taught because all tax payers fund public schools including us conservative wels els and clc. christians. When the last time you visited Lutheran science institute web site ?

          • Jason

            I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with you. If you look at the evidence the only logical conclusion is evolution. Plus, I think there is a disconnect between our uses of the word theory. I’m referring to the scientific definition… which involves butt loads of evidence and testing.

            I’m not familiar with the Lutheran science institute, but my guess is that they start with a claim and work backwards… which is not real science.

            Geology shows that all the continents where once one really big one which they name Pangaea (plate tectonics theory) is also taught in public schools.

            Physics shows that when all matter has an attractive force to one another and the larger its mass the stronger the force (Newton’s theory of gravitation) is also taught in public schools.

            I agree, religion does not belong in science….. but…. science does belong in science.

        • Frankenputer

          No one is lying about evolution. The Creationists just refuse to admit that they don’t know how long one of “Gods” days are.

  • Frankenputer

    I find it interesting that after the “review” process. That half of my reply has been removed prior to posting. Very telling indeed.

  • Beverly Bogunovich

    One atheist is going to change all the rights of the Christians. Like anyone by their selves has that kind of authority. Please!! Its getting bad when even the Christian media starts fabricating stories!!!