Apostate ‘Elder Team’ Welcomes Homosexuals ‘In Any and All Levels of Leadership’ After ‘Seeking Unity’

DENVER, Co. — Members of the elder team of Denver Community Church (DCC) announced this week that following a two-year discussion period, and out of a desire to “seek unity,” they have decided to allow homosexuals and transgenders to have full inclusion, permitting them to serve “in any and all levels of leadership.”

DCC is led by Michael Hidalgo, and its elders are comprised of both men and women who “have determined to live in the ways of Jesus,” according to the DCC website.

On Sunday, members of the elder team announced to the congregation that they have decided to allow homosexuals and transgenders to serve in leadership roles. They also released a public video the following day explaining the announcement, as well as the two-year discussion period that led to their conclusion.

“In our journey and conversation, we studied Scripture, prayed together, challenged one another, heard from various viewpoints, and invited our brothers and sisters in the LGBT community to share their stories with us,” the elders state in the four-minute message.

They note that following the process, although leadership still held to a disagreement with homosexual behavior, they “felt called to transcend our viewpoints and seek unity.”

“This is what we’ve prayed for—that we would experience unity over uniformity,” one of the female elders outlines.

As a result, the elders agreed unanimously that those involved in the homosexual lifestyle and who present themselves as the opposite gender should have full inclusion in the congregation, including “in any and all levels of leadership.”

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“We officially encourage you, invite you and support you—as we do with all who call DCC home—to be involved in the ministry, the community and the work of this church, in any and all levels of leadership,” they said. “We believe this is in keeping with the direction of our faith community—to be a place where everyone can belong, can contribute and be open to the transformative work that God wants to do in each of us.”

The elders outlined that they recognize that some within the congregation will disagree with the decision, but advised that the leadership believes that God would include homosexuals and transgenders, and so they should too.

“[W]e are committed in imitation of the wild, inclusive love of God that we see in Scripture to include those we believe God includes, and who are already a part of the body of Christ,” they outlined.

“Being queer and trans myself this announcement really makes me happy!” one commenter wrote in response.

“I am so incredibly moved and grateful to be a part of this church community that is so full of love and God’s presence,” another member wrote.

DCC began holding an “LGBT Learning Group” on Jan. 18, which will last for five weeks, to continue discussion on the issue. The group is open to the community at large.

As previously reported, Christians believe that homosexuality—like any sin—is a part of the Adamic sin nature that must be regenerated by the second birth, as Jesus outlined in John 3:5-7, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.”

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 also reads, in providing both a warning and speaking of being a new creation in Christ, “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners shall inherit the Kingdom of God. And such were some of you, but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”


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  • BravesFan

    Revelation 18:4 King James Version (KJV)

    4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

  • Jenny Ondioline

    Good then. They are human beings and should be welcomed and not shunned.

    • Royce E. Van Blaricome

      That all depends. Welcomed to hear the Gospel, confess and repent of their sins – yes. Welcomed as members of the congregation and holding positions of leadership – ABSOLUTELY NOT!! God has forbidden such and He will judge that church accordingly as well as all other apostates.

      • Jenny Ondioline

        You’re not supposed to judge. Your holy book even tells you that. Get that log out of your eye.

        • Amos Moses

          “You’re not supposed to judge. Your holy book even tells you that.”

          AGAIN …. repeating lies …. Oleomargarine ….. the fake butter pagan ……..

          • Jenny Ondioline

            I don’t think you’re qualified to speak of such things, Amos.

          • Amos Moses

            well, you are lying about what scripture says and you are a liar …..

            and you will become more of a WELL KNOWN LIAR as long as you remain on this forum ……. so your opinion of me is of little consequence …….. i do not care …… Jenny Oleomargarine …… the fake butter LIAR …………

        • Royce E. Van Blaricome

          When the spiritually dead try to read the Book of Life it’s like a blind man trying to read a road map before hopping in the car to drive. You have to get a heart transplant before you can have eyes to see.

          “The unbeliever does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. And he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1st Cor. 2:14)

          It’s best you not try to talk about subjects you are completely ignorant of. Jesus Christ Himself actually COMMANDS His followers TO judge.

          No log in my eye. At least not as far as this subject is concerned. Thank you though for showing yourself a follower of Satan and using Scripture just as he did.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            So you have decided that you are appointed by God to judge righteously? Can you show us where God decreed this?

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Yes, I decided to surrender as a slave to Christ as my Master. So yes, I therefore do what He commands. And yes, I can. Why do you ask? Who is ‘us”? Aren’t you a self-professed Atheist?

          • Jenny Ondioline

            “Us” – anyone reading this.
            Tell me where Jesus “commanded” you to shun homosexuals. I’d love to know.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            You didn’t answer my question. Why would you “love to know” and aren’t you a self-professed Atheist?

          • Jenny Ondioline

            No, I am not an atheist, self-professed or otherwise. That doesn’t make me a radical conservaitve Christian. I’d love to know because I happen to know you’re making an impossible statement because Jesus didn’t mention homosexuals. In fact, he never mentioned homosexuality at all. But of course you will find a way to tie some all-purpose line about sinning into it and use that, won’t you?

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            So what are you? Based on everything I’ve ever seen you write, certainly not a Christian. It might be helpful for all of us to know where you are coming from.

            Your characterization of me is quite interesting though. There is no such thing as a “radical conservative Christian”. There is just Christian. Based on the Dictionary’s definition, however, I would wear the moniker “radical” quite proudly. For there was no one more radical than Jesus and my desire is to be just like Him. Totally conformed to His image.

            The same holds true with the moniker “conservative”. There was no one who held to the traditional attitudes and values of God that Jesus – for He is the One who made them.

            And no, it’s not an impossible statement because Jesus did mention Homosexuals and, in fact, he did mention Homosexuality. So, again, you’ve shown an ignorance of God’s Word.

            There really is no excuse for such Biblical ignorance in the day and age for which we live today. A simple Google search will yield a plethora of good, solid, Biblically sound teaching on any subject and God has lifted up many great teachers to edify The Body. I’d be happy to send you the links to many of those teachings if you truly wish to surrender to Christ as a slave, follow Him and His ways, and obey God.

            So, what exactly do you claim to be? Do you claim to be a Christian?

          • Jenny Ondioline

            There are certainly liberal Christians. They are the ones who attend church services and live their faith and don’t get themselves involved in the political arena or scream at other Christians about being apostate.

            If Jesus mentioned homosexuality, tell me where. Lying for Jesus is still lying. He didn’t mention it – not once, not anywhere.

            As for what I am, is it really so important to label myself? Maybe I don’t know and I’m still searching.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            No, there are certainly NOT “liberal Christians”. There are only Christians. The rest of that definition is YOUR definition. It’s not from God.

            I’m not lying about Jesus you are.

            Why is it so important that you not tell us who you are and why you want to know? Reveal yourself. If you are still searching I’m happy to help point you to the Truth. Until then the rest is fruitless and casting pearls before swine.

            Once you are saved having surrendered to Christ as His slave and a new creation that has been given a new heart to receive the things of God (Eze. 36:26), denied yourself, picked up your cross, and follow Him, there is no point in discussing the Truths of Scripture. See Jer. 17:9.

            “The unbeliever does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. And he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1st Cor. 2:14)

            “There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.” (2nd Peter 3:16)

            So I pray that the Holy Spirit illuminate your mind to the truth of those passages and that if you are truly being drawn to the Lord Jesus by the Father, according to John 6:44, that you will listen and learn as God says in Verse 45 and then surrender to Christ.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            You don’t get to define Christians. There are liberal Christians and there are conservative Christians, especially when compared to one another. You’re lying when you say Jesus talked about homosexuality, I mean you aren’t stating what the verse is because you and I both know there IS no such verse. JESUS DID NOT MENTION homosexuality. Period.

            It isn’t important that I not tell you what I am, it’s just that I can’t do that when I don’t know myself. I told you I was searching. Mark me down as an agnostic if it means that much to you. And agnostic, by the way, doesn’t mean I can’t make up my mind. It means the truth cannot be known. Because this is a matter of faith.

            I think bearing false witness is a sin, and that’s the thing you should be focusing on right now, because it’s what you’re doing. Your Bible verses are misdirected and I don’t believe you understand what they mean anyway.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Actually, I DO!! I am an Ambassador of the Lord Jesus Christ and have been commissioned to do so. And no, like I said, there are no “liberal Christians” and “conservative Christians”. There are ONLY Christians.

            No, I’m not lying when I say Jesus talked about Homosexuality. You lie by saying He didn’t.

            No, I know no such thing. Your ignorance of Scripture does not negate the Truth.

            JESUS DID MENTION homosexuality. Period. All you’ve done is display for all to see that you do not know Jesus. At least not the Jesus of the Bible. Like many others it is likely you’ve created a jesus (note small j) in your own image according to your own ways.

            Since you’ve acknowledged that you are not a Christian, I would refer you to 1st Cor. 2:14 which is quoted above. There’s your answer as to why you don’t see Jesus talking about Homosexuality and why you don’t understand Scripture.

            I will grant you that it is a matter of faith.

            “I think bearing false witness is a sin, and that’s the thing you should be focusing on right now, because it’s what you’re doing.”

            No I’m not. See the above.

            “Your Bible verses are misdirected and I don’t believe you understand what they mean anyway.”

            No they’re not. See above. And I, frankly, could care less whether you believe I understand what they mean. When an Unbeliever, who is spiritually-dead and can’t discern the things of God from Scripture, says they don’t believe a Believer knows what God says, well, that’s about as empty a statement as one can make.

            When you’re ready to confess your sins to God, die to yourself, surrender to Christ as a slave, beg Him to save you from your sins and the eternity that awaits you, and live your life for Him and His glory, I’m happy to help you with that.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            You’re not an ambassador of anything, you’re a guy with a religion.

            You’ve been asked several times now to provide the quote where Jesus mentioned homosexuality. Such a verse doesn’t exist which is why you have failed to produce one. This has nothing to do with “knowing Jesus”. The entire Bible is online and you can do a text search for those two words and they never appear together. You lose.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Actually I am and YOU do NOT get to decide who is an ambassador for Jesus. Jesus has commissioned me.

            And no, I told you exactly why I’m not giving you Scripture and I quoted the words of God. But I see you didn’t understand them of course.

            Oh no, it’s you who lose and are LOST and, if you don’t change that, not only are you never gonna be able to understand any of God’s Word (unless He illuminates your mind and He doesn’t violate His own words in Matt. 7:6) but you are gonna LOSE BIG TIME in Eternity.

  • mj58

    When you are more “inclusive” than God is, there is something seriously wrong. Approving what God condemns is not Christian.

    • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

      Amen

    • Chris

      If you are more inclusive than your concept of God then there is something wrong with your concept.

      • Amos Moses

        God is not inclusive ….. He is EXclusive ………

  • Faithwalker

    Thank God His ways are higher than man’s or else we would be worshiping a false God.

    • Dennis Bass

      If you are embracing homosexuality you are worshipping a faults God and I say that out of experience I live that lifestyle for a good many years until I was saved by Jesus Christ

      • Faithwalker

        Dennis…praise God for your deliverance. There is no doubt that there is a testimony from all (including myself) who have been delivered from the strongholds of sin. Without a shadow of doubt no matter the type of sin we have all struggled with, we have witnessed and testified of the chains of sin that was broken for those that profess, and confess to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

        • Royce E. Van Blaricome

          Well said. I would only add that “struggled” may also be “struggle”. It was for Paul. It is for me. I find that the closer I get to God, and the more I am conformed into the image of Christ, and the more my mind is renewed and transformed out of this World, the more sin I have that I need to deal with.

          • Faithwalker

            You know Royce, just today I was having a conversation with a friend of mine about the difference between the “past and present” tense as it relates to sin. In that what differentiates the conscious choices we make as we wake day by day and before we lay our head on our pillow night after night with the profession and confession. “It is to you oh God that I choose to serve.” As God has endowed and blessed us with the Holy Spirit. You stated what Paul imparted, but he also goes on to tells us in Romans 6:5-7.
            5. For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be raised to life as He was. 6. We know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.
            7. For anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
            In other words, yes we all are fallen,and we struggle with the spiritual warfare that is constantly being waged in our minds, however, and more importantly we as believers in the Triune God has determined to refuse to live in rebellion and opposition to the word of God. Our Lord told us in
            1 Corinthians 10:12-13
            12. So the one who thinks he is standing firm should be careful not to fall. 13. No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, He will also provide an escape, so that you can stand up under it.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            That’s all true – obviously – but a lot of folks miss the “might be”. When Verse 7 says that we have been freed from sin it means from the power of sin. Not of sin itself.

            You’re absolutely spot on that the one who is truly saved has and will continue to determine to refuse to live in rebellion and opposition to the Word of God. This is why those who continue to practice their sin while doing so claiming that they are covered in God’s grace are deluding themselves.

            The key to interpreting and understanding 1st Cor. 10:13 is to understand Verse 12 just above it. God does not say the temptation isn’t real. Just as it was VERY real for Jesus. He says He will provide an escape. God provides. Man must exercise obedience to follow the provision and means for escape.

      • Chris

        So you’ve stopped being attracted to men and are now attracted to women?

        • Royce E. Van Blaricome

          Dennis hasn’t answered yet and I don’t know if he will but I would ask you what difference does that make? The answer is irrelevant.

          How one is “attracted” to something has NEVER been a reason to act on that attraction.

          A Believer may be “attracted” to an Unbeliever. God says don’t go there.

          When I was married, I was at times “attracted” to other women. God says don’t go there.

          We have cases in the USA today where parents are “attracted” to their children – even attempts to marry now!! God says don’t go there.

          One might be “attracted” to the notion of killing another. God says don’t go there.

          One might be “attracted” to steal something they can’t afford to buy. God says don’t go there.

          One might be “attracted” to their German Shepherd. God says don’t go there.

          I could go on and on and on but suffice it to say that one could be “attracted” to another of the same sex. God says don’t go there.

  • johndoe

    Paganism, not Christianity.

  • Trilemma

    Glad to see another church choose to be on the right side of history.

    • Royce E. Van Blaricome

      Right side of history? Perhaps. For God has shown how History will go. Too bad their on the WRONG side of God.

      Better to be on the right side of God and wrong side of History than the opposite. The consequences are Eternal.

      But, given your repeated efforts on here for your father, Satan, it is easy to see why you would be glad to see another church leading people to Hell. Misery does love company.

      • Trilemma

        The last days came and went two thousand years ago and the Bible teaches that eventually all will be reconciled to God.

        What’s more important to God, how we handle doctrine or how we treat others?

        • Royce E. Van Blaricome

          No, sadly you’re mistaken. We are in the Last Days as told by God. Moreover, and much more importantly, the Bible absolutely does NOT teach all will be reconciled to God. God, in fact, emphatically teaches just the opposite.

          Jesus Himself said just that and He even said that the majority of people will NOT be reconciled with God but rather will spend Eternity in torment for not being so.

          To your last question, that is a false choice. Typical of Satan’s “Has God really said”.

          The answer is not “or”. The answer is that BOTH must be. One cannot separate “Love” from “Truth” and God is quite clear in several places – both OT & NT – that His children are to hold fast to the doctrines He has gave.

          Now, if memory serves me correctly, aren’t you an “Ex-Christian” that I showed some time ago wasn’t ever really a Christian?

          • Trilemma

            Jesus clearly told the people of His generation that they would see the last days. Jesus also said that He would draw all people to Himself. Jesus never said anyone would spend eternity in torment.

            Your answer to my question indicates you believe doctrine is more important than people.

            I don’t recall having any conversations with you at Ex-C unless you were using a different moniker.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Clearly? Where? Specifically.

            “Jesus also said that He would draw all people to Himself.”

            Twist not Scripture lest you be like Satan. Don’t make the mistake of eisegeting your own meaning into the text.

            Jesus did in FACT say, Himself, that MANY will spend Eternity in torment.

            My answer to your question indicates exactly what I said. How you perceive my answer is of no consequence to me but does show you have a problem understanding plain English and wrongly receiving what someone has said.

            Not “at Ex-C”. I believe it was on here before. Do you claim to be an “Ex-Christian”?

          • Trilemma

            Matthew 24:34 NASB ““Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”

            What did Jesus mean when He said He would draw all people to Himself?

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            I’m truly not trying to be a zoilist when I say that can hardly be considered a clear passage. Coupled with the Book of Revelation, that may well be the most difficult to understand and hotly debated passage in all of Scripture. Almost every Commentator I’ve read has said as much and admit it is not clear.

            I tend to think the better translation is “end of the age” vice “end of the world” and that Jesus was referring to the destruction of the temple, the Jewish Age, and the Sacrificial System.

            To your last question the answer is several things.

            1) Pointing to the Cross, Jesus now let’s it be known that he is casting down Satan and folks no longer must be under Judgment. See the preceding Verse 11.

            2) That all Men now had direct access to God thru Jesus and not just Jews.

            3) Looking at the subsequent Verse 13 it also may be perhaps another example of Jesus giving his disciples a message that they can understand but the surrounding crowd couldn’t because the Jews would’ve probably all been familiar with “Cursed is he who hangs on a tree”.

            Remember, God never contradicts Him and Jesus certainly never contradicted His own words. See John 6:44.

            The other thing I’d say is to not make the same mistake that the Calvinists do. The “drawing” is only one half of the equation. There is also the responding. Unless one believes in the false idea of Monergism.

          • Trilemma

            I realize it’s a hotly debated passage and I agree with you that Jesus was referring to the destruction of the temple, the Jewish Age, and the Sacrificial System. But I also think that when the Bible refers to the last days it’s referring to the days leading up to the destruction of the temple.

            I realize that there were several things going on when Jesus said He would draw all people to Himself, but He did say He would draw all people. I take that to mean all will be drawn until all eventually yield and are reconciled.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            You would be taking that wrong. Scripture must interpret Scripture. Jesus says He will draw ALL (I don’t know how to underline or bold) people. He doesn’t say more than that. There’s nothing in His statement about eventually yielding or being reconciled.

            However, in Matt. 25:46 could not be more clearer. The word for “eternal” is the same word for both sides of that equation. It means what it means.

          • Trilemma

            What Jesus said can be interpreted with Colossians 1:19-20 ESV, “For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.”

            Matthew 25:46 YLT “And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.” If a Bible says eternal in this verse then it’s translated incorrectly. The Greek word is the adjective form of age. If the writer had meant to say eternal then the writer would have used the Greek word for eternal.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            To your first paragraph, your making my point. “and THROUGH Him”. That’s consistent with what I said previously.

            Nice try with Matt. 25:46. Outta all the other translations you managed to pick the ONLY one that doesn’t say “eternal” but rather “age-during”. Every other translation has “eternal”.

            The KJV has “aiōnios” (G166) being used 71x and translates Strong’s G166 in the following manner: eternal (42x), everlasting (25x), the world began (with G5550) (2x), since the world began (with G5550) (1x), for ever (1x).

            It occurs 68 times in 67 verses in the Greek concordance of the NASB

            It occurs 174x in the YLT and of that 65x in the NT. That said it’s not difficult to determine what the word means. One only has to look at the same book of Matthew and the 5x it’s used there. I’ve little doubt you’d try to cast some confusion on some of the verses so I’ll just point you to Chapter 19, verses 16 & 29. And if that’s not enough for you, I’d point you to John 3:15-16.

            So no, all the other translations are not wrong. The word means “eternal”, “forever”, “everlasting”, etc.

            Seems like referencing an 1862 Translation containing language that isn’t even used anymore, and the ONLY one that doesn’t use the word “eternal”, is a pretty obvious attempt to deceive and, if so, it failed. Now, you never did answer my question. Do you claim to be an “Ex-Christian”, something else, or do you profess to be a Christian?

          • Trilemma

            And “to reconcile to himself all” is consistent with what I said previously.

            Young’s Literal Translation is not the only version that doesn’t say eternal in Matthew 25:46. Here are 10 more.

            The New Covenant, 1884
            And these shall go away into aeonian chastisement, and the just into aeonian life.

            The Holy Bible In Modern English (Fenton), 1903
            And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life.

            New Testament in Modern Speech, 1910
            And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages.

            The Twentieth Century New Testament, 1900
            And these last will go away ‘into aeonian punishment,’ but the righteous ‘into aeonian life.’

            The New Testament, a Translation, 1938
            And these shall go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life.

            Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition (GreekEnglish Interlinear)
            And these shall go forth to the aionian cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life.

            The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, 1958
            And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life.

            Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
            And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life.

            The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, 1976
            And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life.

            Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
            And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.

            If a Bible publisher wants to make money, they have to make translations that people will buy even if that means mistranslating a few words here and there.

            I still identify as Christian, kind of like Thomas Jefferson.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            No, it’s not. And I see you do the same with the Bible as Thomas Jefferson. So, it’s probably you’ll both get to spend Eternity together.

            The word means Eternal. Exegesis 101 shows that. If it means “eternal” as to “Eternal Life”, it means “eternal” as to “Eternal Punishment”. So deal with it.

          • Trilemma

            The Greek word that actually means eternal or everlasting is aidios. It’s used twice in the Bible.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Wrong.

            Now, you’ve already admitted you’re an apostate and reject God’s Word on Homosexuality and SSM so 1st Cor. 2:14 applies to you and we’re done here.

          • Trilemma

            I don’t reject what the Bible says on homosexuality and SSM. It’s just that the Bible doesn’t condemn a person for being a homosexual not does the Bible say anything about SSM.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            If you’re talking about a Homosexual engaging in a homosexual act, then that’s a lie. Straight from your father, Satan. And the Bible does prohibit SSM.

            Ergo, 1st Cor. 2:14 applies to you again.

          • Trilemma

            The Bible is silent on homosexuality. There may be a verse that condemns sex between two women. There are a couple of verses that condemn sex between two men. And there are many, many verses that condemn sex between a man and a woman. But when it comes to same sex attraction, the Bible is silent. A majority in the church in the article obviously realized this after studying the matter for two years.

            On same sex marriage, the Bible is totally silent. It neither condemns it nor condones it.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            No, the Bible is NOT silent on Homosexuality. That you can’t see or hear is your problem. In fact, God has said why:

            “The unbeliever does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. And he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1st Cor. 2:14)

            “There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.” (2nd Peter 3:16)

            The is MUCH more than “a couple of verses”. For anyone else reading this, it’s like this: You go to a doctor and get a hearing test. The beep happens in your left ear but you don’t raise your hand or push the button. You don’t acknowledge the beep. Doesn’t mean it wasn’t there.

            Or the doc goes to give you an eye test and shuts the lights out because you refuse to open your eyes and want to see. Room is totally dark and he asks you read the chart. You can’t. But it doesn’t mean the chart isn’t there. That’s the way it is with the Holy Spirit. He isn’t gonna cast His pearls before swine either – just as He has told us not to do.

            When you’re ready to surrender as a slave to the Lord Jesus Christ and lay your life down to pick up your cross and follow Him for His glory, then you’ll get eyes to see and ears to hear.

            The Bible condemns SSM too. You are a Liar and of your father, Satan, who also denies God’s Word and attempts to deceive and lead others to Hell.

          • Trilemma

            ”No, the Bible is NOT silent on Homosexuality.”

            Please provide a Bible verse that talks about two men or two women who are romantically attracted to each. Or provide a verse that says it’s a sin for a person to feel sexually attracted to someone of the same sex. Or provide a verse that says it’s an abomination for two men or two women to feel attracted to each other.

            ”The Bible condemns SSM too.”

            Please provide a Bible verse that specifically condemns SSM. Or provide a verse where Paul instructs men not to marry each other or instructs women not to marry each other. Or provide a verse that says men shall not marry men and women shall not marry women.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Sorry if this winds up being a dupe I’m not able to delete the other one with the link in it

            Here’s the ONLY two you need to know regarding ANY Biblical truths for now:

            “The unbeliever does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. And he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1st Cor. 2:14)

            “There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.” (2nd Peter 3:16)

            When you’re ready to surrender as a slave to the Lord Jesus Christ THEN you can move beyond those.

            Beyond that, IF you were TRULY interested knowing what God has to say about those two issues (or anything else) there is likely an endless supply of edifying videos on YouTube that is EASILY found on Google. Just realize they’ll be meaningless to you until you’ve had your Jer. 17:9 heart removed and replaced with the Eze. 36:26 heart. Here’s a few to get you started:

            Is Homosexuality Compatible with Christianity? (White vs Spong) – This shows a “Bishop” with 6 PhD’s totally undermining the veracity and authority of Scripture AND creating a god in his own image

            Can You Be Gay and Christian? – Dr. Michael Brown debates Matthew Vines

            “Gay Christianity” Debate – James White vs Justin Lee

            Does God Affirm Homosexuality? James White vs Graeme Codrington – Another one that shows a so-called “pastor” totally undermining the veracity and authority of Scripture and creating a god in his own image. Watch for the “emotional argument”.

            Can you be Gay and Christian? Michael Brown vs. Harry Knox – Another one that shows a so-called “pastor” totally undermining the veracity and authority of Scripture and creating a god in his own image. Watch for the “emotional argument”.

            NRB Hosts Debate on Homosexuality at Int’l Christian Media Convention
            – Janet Parcel moderate a debate with Anne Paulk, Michael Brown, Justin Lee, and Brandan Robertson

            Debate: Gay Marriage? (White vs Bradshaw)
            – look once again at how much emphasis the authority of Scripture is given versus the “experiential” and “feelings”.

            Christianity and Homosexuality: Are They Compatible? – Dr Robert Gagnon Vs Dr Daniel Kirk

            Is Gay the New Black? Voddie Baucham – Unlocking the Mysteries of Genesis

            Matt Chandler – Homosexuality, Culture & Theology. Might watch this one first because he addresses your two points here directly and completely destroys your premise.

            Sex Change Regret – A site for those who regret changing genders

            Just As Predicted, Gay Activists and Their Allies Attack the Messengers – Dr. Michael Brown

            An Open Letter to Brandon and Jen Hatmaker on Homosexuality and the Bible

            Internet Trolls Are Narcissists, Psychopaths, and Sadists – Psychology Today

            Ex-Homosexuals now Christians:

            How Does the Gospel Equip Christians Who Struggle With Same-Sex Attraction? | Jackie Hill-Perry

            The Etiology of Homosexuality. (Homosexuality – Nature or Nuture?) Christopher Yuan

            Secret Thoughts Of An Unlikely Convert | Rosaria Butterfield and Russell Moore

            Rosaria Butterfield: Homosexuality and the Christian Faith – All this is good but I love the part that starts at the 26min mark. Where Rosaria says she wanted to show her on her terms why Homosexuality is a sin. She wanted understanding before obedience because she wanted to be the judge. Andy Stanley would also do well to listen to this and to pay close attention to when she says, “The Bible killed me. If the Bible is true I was dead!”

            Is God Anti-Gay? Answering Tough Questions About Same-Sex Marriage | Sam Allberry

            Is It Okay To Be Gay? A Candid Conversation on Christians and Same-Sex Attraction – A panel discussion with Russell Moore, Jackie Hill-Perry, Sam Allberry, Rosiara Butterfield, & Christopher Yuan

          • Amos Moses

            “Jesus clearly told the people of His generation that they would see the last days.”

            NOPE …….. he said some …. not everyone … and it turned out to be only John ….. in Revelation on Patmos …..

          • Trilemma

            John of Patmos saw a vision of what would happen in 70AD.

          • Amos Moses

            no ……… all though there are some who wish it so …….

        • Dennis Bass

          You need to read your Bible and stop listening to those television evangelists. You are as lost as lost can be

          • Trilemma

            I do read and study my Bibles. That’s why I’m a preterist and a universalist.

          • Amos Moses

            reading and understanding …. two entirely different things ……… and you missed one of them …………

        • Chris

          “What’s more important to God, how we handle doctrine or how we treat others?”
          You know what their answer will be.

        • Amos Moses

          and that reconciliation will require many to go into hell ………….. reconciliation is not always good ….. it has consequences ……….

          • Trilemma

            The Merriam-Webster definition of reconcile is, “To restore to friendship or harmony.”

            Sending people to Hell for all eternity is the opposite of reconcile.

          • Amos Moses

            nope …….. there are several definitions ……..

            1. to cause (a person) to accept or be resigned to something not desired:
            He was reconciled to his fate.

          • Trilemma

            The Bible says God is causing all to be reconciled to Himself. God causing people to be reconciled to Hell is the opposite of what the Bible teaches.

          • Amos Moses

            Nope ……… the bible does not teach universalism ….. but you want it to do so ………. FAIL …..

        • Amos Moses

          How we treat God and His law …………. and His chosen path to redemption …….

          • Trilemma

            I thought it didn’t matter how the elect treated God, His law, and His chosen path to redemption. They were going to Heaven no matter what. And it didn’t matter how the non-elect treated God, His law, and His chosen path to redemption. They weren’t going to Heaven no matter what.

          • Amos Moses

            “I thought it didn’t matter how the elect treated God, His law, and His chosen path to redemption.”

            you thought wrong ……..

          • Trilemma

            Does that mean if one of the elect mistreats God, His law and His path to redemption that God will take away their salvation and they will no longer be one of the elect?

          • Amos Moses

            nope …. it means they were never of the elect ….. they were “passing” …. they were acting …… they were lying ………….. they were false converts …. they were wolves among the sheep …..

          • Trilemma

            I wasn’t asking about someone who was never of the elect. I was asking about someone who actually is of the elect.

          • Amos Moses

            well …. in case you missed the point ….. if they were commuting acts not of the elect ….. not in keeping with being the elect …… then they never were of the elect ….

          • Trilemma

            Does that mean if one of the elect uses God’s name in vain then that means they were never one of the elect?

          • Amos Moses

            there are acts that are forgivable …. many sins are forgivable ….. numerous multiple sins …. but there is a pattern of acts that if continued are evidence that a person was never of the elect and that person ….. though pretending to be of the elect ….. never was …. there has to be evidence of salvation …. there has to be evidence of regeneration ….. patterns of continual acts in disregard of being regenerate …. are evidence a person never was …. denial that a sin is a sin ….. and continual partaking in that sin ……… is an act of denial of the Holy Spirit ….. and is unforgivable ….. according to scripture ………….

            can a person deny that blasphemy is a sin and and continually commit that sin ….. and be of the elect and be forgiven ….. NO ……….. can a person use Gods name in vain, numerous times …. and be forgiven …. acknowledging it as sin and seeking forgiveness in repentance and coming back to a right relationship and in agreement with God …….. YUP …………..

          • Trilemma

            All Christians sin. So how can a Christian be sure they’re one of the elect and not just pretending to be one of the elect? Every time a Christian sins they have to wonder if they have crossed a line and demonstrated that they were never one of the elect. Even if a Christian never sins, they may discover at judgment that they were just pretending the whole time and were never actually one of the elect.

          • Amos Moses

            “So how can a Christian be sure they’re one of the elect and not just pretending to be one of the elect? ”

            i think they usually know ….. but some deceive themselves …. some later realize what they were doing and never were saved …. and then become really saved ………

          • Amos Moses

            new article … cut and paste …. but it is more clear than i have said …..

            “One of the most astounding things that we see, particularly in the Christian church in America today, is a cheapening of the gift of salvation that Jesus gave us,” Farah said. “And it comes in many forms, but let me give you an example of what I’m talking about. There’s an idea called ‘hyper-grace,’ and it’s sort of an extreme position in some of the church today. And it says: ‘You know what? We live in an age of grace, we’ve been given this great gift from Jesus. That means we can’t sin anymore. We’re like, immune from sin and the Law. All of that is for another era. We repent once and somehow this forgives any behavior, no matter how egregious, in the future.’”

            This concept, which many believers have observed gaining traction in American Christianity, derives from the idea Jesus Christ somehow lowered the bar to salvation or made it somehow easier to live as a believer. The opposite is true, contends Farah.

            “I’m summarizing what I consider to be a very dangerous, heretical view but there are shades of grey on this throughout the church,” Farah said. “And to sum up what I see as the state of the American church today is the fact that we kind of believe what Jesus came to do was to lower the standards. God the Father, in the Old Testament, they seem to think, imposed these tough laws that were hard to follow and Jesus came along and made it easier. You know there is nothing about that in the New Testament. In fact, just the opposite I would say.

            “Jesus raised the bar! He said for instance: ‘You’ve heard it said don’t commit adultery. What I say is when you look at a woman with lust in your eyes and in your heart, you’ve already committed adultery.’ [Paraphrasing Matthew 5:27-28].

            “In other words, He’s raising the bar. It’s not just a physical act anymore. It’s actually something we actually lust for and think about, and that’s unholy. That’s what Jesus was saying. So I think we do a disservice to the sacrifice that Jesus gave us when we take that kind of position.

            ……. ‘This contradicts so much of what I’ve heard in the church. You talk about the Law still being in effect!’ Well guess what? Read Jesus’s own words throughout the New Testament, throughout the Gospels. Read what the Apostles say. There is still a Law. And if you think the Ten Commandments don’t affect you, don’t hold you into account, you’re making a very big mistake.”

          • Trilemma

            Martin Luther seemed to teach a form of hyper-grace. I believe what we do does matter to God so I reject this hyper-grace theology.

          • Amos Moses

            as do i ………

      • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

        Exactly

    • Luminous

      Fk you

  • Royce E. Van Blaricome

    “out of a desire to “seek unity”

    Too bad they didn’t “seek first the Kingdom of God” or even read Matt. 10.

    “they have decided to allow homosexuals and transgenders to have full inclusion”

    Too bad they didn’t rather just decide to follow Christ and His Word.

    Watch the video carefully and pay close attention. Look at the faces of the apostates. Listen to their apostasy and demonic lies. Such as “this is about mothers & fathers, sisters & brothers”, “sons & daughters”. Notice anything missing? If not, read Matt. 10.

    And I must say I am really sick & tired, totally fed up, with people doing the most hurtful, evil, hateful, and unloving things in the name of “God’s love for all people”!! Baloney!! They have NO idea what God’s “Love” is and they make a mockery of it.

    I don’t know what “spirit” they were listening to but it most surely was NOT the Holy Spirit. And that is evidenced by their calling those in the “LGBT Community” their “brothers & sisters”. According to God’s infallible, inerrant, Holy Word, they just self-admitted to being sons of disobedience and children of wrath. NOT children of God.

    Jezebel has risen her ugly head again in another church. If you are a follower of Jesus Christ, He commands you to get out now and have nothing to do with this apostate. Get out now lest you be cast down with her.

    Thank you CNN for posting this. It’s a perfect example of the prophesied things to come in the churches during the last days and of Satan disguising himself as an angel of light. Sadly, this will not be the last and there will be many more follow.

    • TwoRutRoad

      Dang! You sure know how to make all this god stuff sound like a good deal…Not. Your hateful rant is brought about by 1st century anonymous (fallible and errant) writings, and here we are in the 21st century.

      • Royce E. Van Blaricome

        I almost asked whether you claim to be a Christian but took a look at your profile and saw your other posts as well as you probably claiming to be on the road to Hell.

        So, there really is no need to try and refute your claim because it would only fall on dead ears and those of us who are truly children of God know better.

        I will say though that you regurgitated rhetoric and characterization of my comment as “hateful” is not surprising and really is getting old. I hope you’ll wake up to the fact that throwing out the ‘hateful”, “bigot”, blah blah blah isn’t working anymore.

        I will also say that a wise man once said it is better to keep your mouth shut and not show your ignorance than open it and remove all doubt. You should work on your wisdom a bit because the evidence for the Bible is overwhelming for those who are truly interested in knowing the Truth. A simple Google search will lead anyone to the Manuscript, Archeological, Prophetic, and Statistical evidence that will prove it is a mathematical impossibility for the Bible to be anything other than what God has said in 2nd Tim. 3:16.

        • TwoRutRoad

          I was raised Catholic, but I quit for many reasons.

          My regurgitated rhetoric is no older than yours, and yours isn’t working anymore, either.

          Speaking of statistics, What are the odds that you have chosen the right god? Since there are many to chose from, your odds a quite slim. I simply believe in less gods than you.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            I see. And that makes sense. So why exactly are you on a CHRISTIAN site??

            The odds are 100%. I’ve chosen the ONLY God. There are many gods but ONLY one that is God.

            And no, actually, we both believe in one “God”. I in the one true God and you in Yourself.

          • TwoRutRoad

            I like the atheist sites, too, but this is more entertaining.

            There are also many holy books. I suppose YOURS is the real one.

            I believe in no gods. I am simply a primate, just like you.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            So you’re here to harass Christians as a form of entertainment? That fits with your Morality?

            And yes, the Bible is the inerrant, infallible, living, breathing, Word of God. 2nd Tim. 3:16

            And no, I am not a primate. Please don’t insult me again.

            Whether you admit to believing in a god or not is irrelevant. You do live according to your god’s will. YOU are that god.

          • TwoRutRoad

            I tried the Elvis Is Still Alive sites, but they were boring. Besides, they don’t try to push that in schools and government.

            So the bible is true because the bible says the bible is true. I have a Paul Bunyan book that says it’s a true story! Wait until I tell the world about THAT!

            OK. I’m a god. If you say so. I feel sorry for the primates now. 🙁

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            So you admit you find harassing Christians entertainment and do so to prevent boredom. Thank you.

            As for trying to push our beliefs in schools and government, why not? You do. So does everyone else. But thanks for showing your intolerance and bias toward Christians. What other groups or categories do you try to keep from having a voice in schools and government? Where else are Christians not allowed in the Marketplace of ideas according to your lordship?

            Yes, the Bible is true because the Bible says the Bible is true and the Bible is God’s inerrant, infallible, living, Word.

            Ok, it’s good to see you at least admit that. So many others refuse to. You’re ahead of them. No need to feel sorry for the primates though. They’re still the same creation they’ve always been and doing just fine.

          • Chris

            “OK. I’m a god. If you say so.”

            Are you a good God or an evil God? enquiring minds want to know. 🙂

          • TwoRutRoad

            I thought you’d never ask. All my good god friends tell me I’M a good god, too! Thanks for your interest!

      • Dennis Bass

        You are ignorant and lost and only God can save you. you will one day stand before a holy God and he will not determine where you go you determine that. I’m not receiving Jesus as Lord and Savior you are refusing a free gift salvation through the shed blood of his son Jesus. You are lost without the cross and I pray that you have an encounter with Jesus before it’s too late

        • TwoRutRoad

          I never asked anybody to shed blood for me, and I never would. It’s not moral.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            It’s not “moral”? How, specifically, do you determine what is “moral”?

            And I’m curious. Are you married? Have any kids? Got any relatives, or even friends, that you love so much as to die for them? Is there not anyone you would lay your life down for?

            If not, I feel VERY sorry for you. If so, and yet you would not shed your blood for them, I feel VERY sorry for them!!

          • TwoRutRoad

            I determine “moral” by considering if my actions will cause harm. Harm might be physical, emotional, monetary or other ways. There are different levels of morals, and sometimes I make a choice, like killing a mouse or catching fish.

            I am divorced, with 2 grown children. I would gladly die for them, and they would die for me. We would not ask each other to do so.

            Would you ask your child or parent to die for you? If so, I feel sorry for you all.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            And who gets to decide if your actions cause “harm”? Who gets to define what “harm” is?

            I am sorry to hear of your divorce. My sympathies.

            You said, “I never asked anybody to shed blood for me, and I never would. It’s not moral” as a reply to Dennis who spoke of Jesus dying and shedding His blood for the remission of your sins.

            So you statement seemed to imply that dying/shedding blood for another is immoral. So, are you now saying that’s not the case but rather asking another to do that is immoral?

            If the latter, let me remind you that Christ did not ask you nor did God ask you before sending Him to die for you. God sent His Son, Jesus, to die for you out of His love for you. (Jn 3:16) Look it up.

            Moreover, not only did God do so but “but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” (Rom 5:8)

            So, while you were a Sinner and an Enemy of God’s, He loved you by sending His Son to die in your stead.

            So now, let’s look at your statement about what is Moral. Would you say it is Moral or Immoral to have someone voluntarily die and shed their blood for you and then to totally disrespect and reject that sacrifice?

          • TwoRutRoad

            The divorce was needed. Even the kids agreed. Guess who got custody? Not her!

            “Would you say it is Moral or Immoral to have someone voluntarily die
            and shed their blood for you and then to totally disrespect and reject
            that sacrifice?” Certainly not moral as phrased. However, I fail to see how it is moral to WANT someone to do this. And you left out the bit about being DEMANDED to love them for it or I’ll burn for eternity. And that fact that I didn’t have any choice about it all. Oh yeah, then I’m supposed to eat his flesh and drink his blood. Remember, I was Catholic, so it wasn’t just symbolic. It was eating flesh.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            You failed to stipulate who gets to decide if your actions cause “harm” and who gets to define what “harm” is. Perhaps once you can do that you’ll be able to see how it is moral to WANT someone to do this.

            Another thing that may be helpful is to put yourself into real life situations. Think about Police Officers, Firemen, and every member of the Military.

            Are you saying it is Immoral to WANT and ask for our Police Officers to lay down their life for others? How about Firemen and other First Responders?

            Suppose your house were to catch on fire. Firemen show up and find you overtaken by smoke inhalation. They get you outside and to the Paramedics. You know your son is inside. Are you saying it would be immoral to ask and WANT those Firemen to go back in and rescue your son? Or even send them back in to put out the fire knowing it may cost them their life?

            It’s not surprising to see you put your emphasis on DEMAND and not LOVE. If you understood what the command actually means to LOVE God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, you would understand that “demand” is of no consequence whatsoever.

            But I do appreciate you putting your rebellion on open display. Perhaps it will help others see that is the root of all rejection for Christ. It simply goes right back to what I said, you are your own god.

            It is interesting though that you somehow have created a moral concept that there is something wrong with the Creator telling the creation how they must be. Especially when the creation made a commitment to do something. How did you decide that concept was Moral? What is your basis for that?

            And, I don’t know what vows you and your Ex took but if they were the traditional vows of “love, honor, and cherish”, are you saying that even though you made those “vows” (covenantal or otherwise), you had no right to “demand” they be kept? How “moral” is that? To make a “vow” and not keep it?

            You’re going to burn for all Eternity not because you didn’t love the Lord but because you will pay for your own sin. Sorry your Catholicism didn’t teach you that. Rejecting Christ and refusing to surrender to Christ and Lord & Master is just one of your many.

            As for not having any choice about it, I have no idea what you’re referring to. Most certainly you have, or at least had, a choice. If you have not been turned over to a reprobate mind, you still have a choice until such time that God takes His grace away and turns you over or sends His strong delusion.

            If you’re referring to having a choice as to whether you go to Heaven or Hell after you die, then you’re right. But don’t blame God. He has told you that already. For it is appointed once a man to die and then the Judgment. You are making your choice now. I suggest you choose wisely.

            As for Communion, you know good and well that’s not true. You know that some dry old wafer didn’t become Flesh. So I don’t have to address that.

            However, you must give an answer to “So what?” So, what if it were Flesh and Blood? Why would that be wrong? On what basis would you consider that to me immoral??

          • TwoRutRoad

            I decide what harm is myself. I don’t need a 2000 year old book to tell me what’s right or wrong. Why don’t you stone people, or sell your daughter? Are you making your own calls on morality in these cases?

            Firefighters, police and military are not the same situation at all. Yes, I want them to save people. They are trained and equipped, where I am not. I would not want them to go into a situation where they KNEW they would die. My opinion on this would possibly be different if they would only be dead for three days, and would return to us with no apparent injury. Also, I can’t imagine any of them wanting me to eat their flesh or drink their blood, even if it’s only symbolic.

            It all begs the question of why God didn’t just save the victim himself. Either he doesn’t care, or he can’t, or he doesn’t exist.

            Religion is divisive and dangerous. Prayer doesn’t work. It’s all a scam and it is deserving of ridicule and push back.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            “I decide what harm is myself. I don’t need a 2000 year old book to tell me what’s right or wrong.”

            Thank you for your honesty and admitting that you are your own god. You are the final authority to decide right and wrong and govern your life. I appreciate you being honest and admitting that. Wish more were as honest as yourself because that is always what it boils down to.

            As for your other questions, no offense meant but you simply wouldn’t understand. From my 2000yo book:

            “The unbeliever does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. And he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1st Cor. 2:14)

            I can say that no I am not making my own calls. Slaves don’t make the calls. They just follow what they’ve been told to do.

            As for the rest, the analogy is true. That you don’t see it doesn’t change that. I would simply refer you back to your original premise.

            And actually no, it all begs the question of why you are so prideful and arrogant as to think Almighty God has to answer to you. The actual Plan of Salvation makes perfect sense when one comes to see God for who He is.

            “Religion is divisive and dangerous. Prayer doesn’t work. It’s all a scam and it is deserving of ridicule and push back.”

            According to the one who has just admitted he is his own god and he gets to decide right and wrong, harmful or not.

            That said, it is a lie. Yes, Religion is divisive but NOT dangerous. So it’s a half truth. Half truths are whole lies. Jesus made it very clear that He did not come to bring peace but rather Division.

            It’s also a lie that Prayer doesn’t work. It most certainly does. It would be best if you simply did not try to comment on or characterize an issue of which you are totally ignorant about. Only a child of God could understand prayer and how it works.

            It is NOT a scam and one day you will find that out.

            And so, as your own self-imposed god, you get to decide what is “deserving of ridicule and push back.”

            Thank you for admitting that is why you are here. Again, I appreciate your honesty. Now, I’ll do you a favor and warn you that should you decide to keep up your ridicule and push back, you likely won’t be here very long.

            And I do appreciate you giving me the opportunity to prove God’s Word true again for you are doing exactly what God has said.

            “And you are dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you walk according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them you live in the lusts of your flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and are by nature children of wrath” (Eph. 2:1-4)

          • Amos Moses

            yep …. and that is why He did it ….. because you would never ask …. it was freely done ………. even for you ……….

          • TwoRutRoad

            Not freely. I’m expected to worship him now, or go to hell. Either way, I have to pay. Besides, he was only dead for three days.

          • Amos Moses

            nope …. you are free to reject any GIFT …. and it is a gift ….. but as an unregenerate person …. you are incapable ………..

            “Besides, he was only dead for three days.”

            and in that we have the promise of life after death ………

          • TwoRutRoad

            If he were still alive, I’d believe you.

            Nice personal attack, BTW. Stick and stones may break my bones, but whips and chains excite me.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            No you wouldn’t.

            “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’” (Lk 16:31)

          • TwoRutRoad

            Sure I would.

            If Jesus were still alive, there would be documented proof of him over the years and this would be completely different world.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Wrong again. There is documented proof of him and this is a completely different world because of Him.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            I agree that Salvation is a Gift but don’t give him an excuse. God says they will all be without excuse. You were correct in that TRR is free to reject any gift and that includes the Gift of Salvation.

            He’s not incapable of surrendering to Christ as an unregenerated person. One is only regenerated AFTER they’ve surrendered to Christ and then they become a new creation regenerated and equipped with the Holy Spirit which enables them to walk in the Spirit.

          • Amos Moses

            not sure where you are going with that ….. dead men have no will to choose anything ….. they are dead ….. we are all dead in trespasses and sins ….. Christ does all the work …. He does all the choosing ….. we have no free will to choose until He chooses us ……. TRR is unregenerate because Christ has not chosen him for His reasons ….. Christ does not try to do something and fail ….. Christ does not fail at what He does ………

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            I understand where you’re coming from. That’s clear Hyper-Calvinistic teaching. But it’s false and I can prove it.

            God’s Word is clear that “Free Will” exists. It started when He created Man and gave it to him. It is evidenced by His telling Adam & Eve “You are FREE to eat from any tree of the garden” (Gen. 2:16) BUT you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will surely die.” (Gen. 2:17). There’s free-will right there.

            Deuteronomy 30 is another passage that makes this abundantly clear. “Today I invoke heaven and earth as a witness against you that I have set life and death, blessing and curse, before you. Therefore CHOOSE life so that you and your descendants may live!” (Deu. 30:19) And this is repeated often throughout Scripture.

            Start at Genesis 3:6 – The Fall. See the death that occurred in Genesis 3:7. See that even in their spiritually dead condition they could still sense the presence of the Lord God in Genesis 3:8, HEAR His voice, and KNEW of their fallen condition. They KNEW they were not in a right relationship with God now. And see that they could still hear the voice of the Lord in their spiritually dead condition in Genesis 3:9-13 and hold a conversation with Him!! DON’T miss that this ALL occurred while being spiritually-dead!!!!

            And it doesn’t stop with Adam & Eve. Was Abel Born Again? Noah? Abraham? How about the 12 Disciples who walked with Jesus? Was Peter Born Again and regenerated when he told Jesus, “You are the Christ?”

            Was God just giving lip-service to Joshua when he says, “CHOOSE you this day whom you will serve…”

            The answer is no. God has given EVERY man a conscience. According to your theology God is a Liar with what He says in Romans 2:15.

            The doctrine of Total Depravity is Biblically true. Just not to the extent that you and other Calvinists take it. Rom. 3:10-12 is true (of course). But that MUST be taken in conjunction with John 6:44. John 6:44 is verse that a lot of Calvinists like to throw out but they never mention the very next verse – John 6:45. Note what it says and don’t miss the “and having learned”!!

            I could go on but that should be enough.

            You also seem to imply that “we” are “all” dead in our trespasses and sins as if that is still the case with Believers. I can most certainly assure you that is NOT the case. Don’t fail to note the word “WERE” in the passage (Eph. 2:1-4) that you reference. I can’t speak for you, and would hope that you’ve misspoken or at the very least not made yourself clear, BUT as for me.. I am NOT dead in my trespasses and sins but am ALIVE in Christ!!

            Your confusing God’s Truth by conflating it with a success or failure thru the filter of TULIP as defined by your Calvinism. THAT is NOT the case. God has said that it is not His will that any should perish. Is everyone saved? Christ said if He be lifted up He will draw all men to Himself. But that doesn’t mean all will be saved.

            Christ as chosen TRR. Whether or not TRR will surrender to that choice is up to him.

            I could go on but it is unlikely that you and I will see eye to eye on this and this simply isn’t the forum to discuss it. You’ve made it clear now where you come from and I think I’ve made my position clear as well. Far greater theologians than you or I have debated the issue and it hasn’t been settled yet. So it’s best we just leave it there.

          • Amos Moses

            No …….. that is clear SCRIPTURAL teaching ………. and i can prove it ……..

            first you are taking things out of context and you are proof texting …….. the phrase “free will” does not appear in scripture unless you can show a scripture that says so …… Christ said ….. “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you” ….

            15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
            15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
            15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

            and you cannot point to even one person in scripture that chose God ….. God chose every single person …. all of the nation of Israel …… all the way down to those today …. dead men have no ability to choose …. you have just as much will to choose to be REborn as you did when you were first born …. you did not pick your parents or any other factor of your birth …… when Lazarus was in the grave ….. did he say ” not right now Jesus, i am resting” …… He had no will to resist God and neither do we …….. and God chose us BEFORE we were born into this world ……….

            Psalm
            139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb.
            139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
            139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
            139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
            139:17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
            139:18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

            Jeremiah
            1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
            1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

            ……. BEFORE the FOUNDATION of the world …….. “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,” …………..
            Ephesians
            1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
            1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
            1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
            1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
            1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
            1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
            1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
            1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
            1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
            1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

            NOT “hyper-Calvinism” …………. SCRIPTURE ……….

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            It’s not I but you who just took things out of context and are prooftexting. Everyone one of those Scriptures I cited show God speaking to spiritually-dead people who heard God speak and responded. That is a fact.

            You’re quoting of John 15:14-15 has nothing to do with Salvation but rather after. Ergo the words “Henceforth”.

            I quoted Deut. 30 and God does not command that which He does not expect one to obey.

            As for one person who chose God, I’ll give two. Abraham and Joshua. Abraham chose God over his own son and Joshua clearly says he chose to serve God rather than the gods across the river (Josh. 24:15). And, for that matter, every single person who obeys God chooses God over themselves. Then, of course, there is Matt. 16:24. The “choice” there is clear as crystal.

            Moreover, don’t put words in my mouth. I did NOT say one has the choice to be REborn. That is a work of the Holy Spirit and ALL are totally dependent upon the work of God for Salvation. One DOES, however, have the choice to surrender as a slave to Christ.

            The Lazarus analogy is a non sequitur. For several reasons of which I won’t go into for partly reasons of time and space and partly because I doubt you would listen to anything I have to say. But I will say, for the sake of others, that you are conflating physical death with spiritual death. The Scriptures I cited already prove a spiritually-dead man CAN hear and respond to God. John 6:45 makes that abundantly clear.

            You citing Psalms 139 is out of context and a prooftext because that applies to ALL men. Unless, of course, you deny that every human is created by God in which case you would lose any argument against Abortion. That is one of the text that prove Abortion is murder. The same with Jeremiah 1:5. It applies to ALL men. So you just shot holes in your own argument.

            Your citing of Ephesians 1 is further evidence of prooftexting because that passage is perfectly consistent and in total alignment/agreement with John 3:16.

            So yes, it is “hyper-Calvinism” and NOT SCRIPTURE.

            Now, I will ask you what the purpose of your quoting 1Cor 2:14 is? Are you submitting that I am not saved and therefore unable to receive the things of God?

            If so, you just wrote all that in the Flesh, made a false accusation of a child of God, bore false witness against me, and sinned against God Almighty by putting yourself on His throne. And I would add, not only against me but against every other child of God who does not believe in Hyper-Calvinism, Supralapsarianism, or Infralapsarianism. Pretty strong evidence of one walking in the Flesh.

            If not, what other possible reason did you have for saying such?

          • Amos Moses

            “I cited show God speaking to spiritually-dead people who heard God speak and responded.”

            Yes …. and that is GODS work in us, it has not one thing to do with OUR will …… so that NO MAN may boast …

            2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
            2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

            Gods mercy, we are dead, God quickens us, Gods Grace, we have no will to choose Him …… and the reason is ….. that we have NO PART in our salvation …. again, so NO MAN may boast ….

            2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

            HE raises us up, not we and Him ….

            2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
            2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
            2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

            AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES ………. there is nothing that we contribute to our salvation …. because God WILL NOT share His glory with another …… NOT ANYONE …… Not even US ……..

            Here is the thing …. saying you have even one little bit of a work in salvation ….. says that Christs sacrifice was not needed ……… because then we could have done it without Him ….. and we cannot ………. we never could and we never will ….

            You are also saying that OUR will EXCEEDS that of Christ to save ….. REALLY …. is that what you want to be saying ….. that WE are omnipotent …. and that Christ is IMPOTENT ….

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            “Yes …. and that is GODS work in us, it has not one thing to do with OUR will …… so that NO MAN may boast …”

            Oh that’s just ridiculous and it is eisegesis at its worst. See, this is why anyone who takes the time to really look into Calvinism just walks away shaking their head. Let me quote the passage here for all to see:

            “6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths.
            8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?” 10 And he said, “I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself.” 11 He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” 12 The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.” 13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

            Right there, at the very beginning is God saying that He spoke to a spiritually-dead man and woman and THEY HEARD Him!!!

            You quote Eph. 2 but like all Calvinists who can’t be straight-forward and honest, insert your own verbiage and conveniently leave out the applicable parts that reject your false teaching. We are saved by grace THRU faith.

            To the rest of your comments, I will only say that the mistake you make is the same one by all Monergists who confuse surrender an dying with a work. A beggar isn’t contributing to his belly being filled when one gives him a sandwich because of his begging.

            And I’m not even gonna bother addressing the rest of your comments because you are obviously in the Flesh as evidenced by your bearing FALSE witness against me. I am NOT saying any such thing. Now hang on to that and Matt. 5:23-24 when you to church and offer up your sacrifice of praise.

            THIS is exactly why folks don’t wanna engage with you and your ilk. You don’t, and perhaps cant’, back up your theology nor evidently hold a reasonable discussion with another Christian but rather resort to putting words in the others mouths and falsely characterizing them. Hmmm, isn’t it a bit odd that those who can’t do anything without God doing it for them have no problem sinning and bearing false witness against another?!

            I told you in my OP that this is an issue that hasn’t been settled in 200yrs and had been debated by far more better theologians than you or are and was best just to leave it there but you just couldn’t do that.

            Well, now you’ve openly sinned before all. Let’s see just what your witness is worth on that.

          • Amos Moses

            “Right there, at the very beginning is God saying that He spoke to a spiritually-dead man and woman and THEY HEARD Him!!!”

            We are ALL spiritually dead …. UNTIL Christ quickens us ……… no contradiction ………

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            No contradiction? Then explain how spiritually-dead people, whom you say cannot choose anything and have no free-will, can HEAR and RESPOND to God?

            And to make this easy for you, I’ll copy and paste your previous comments:

            “you are free to reject any GIFT …. and it is a gift ….. but as an unregenerate person …. you are incapable ………..”

            “dead men have no will to choose anything ….. they are dead ….. ”
            (that MUST include HEARING and RESPONDING)

            “we have no free will to choose until He chooses us …….”
            (that MUST include HEARING and RESPONDING)

            “dead men have no ability to choose”

            “and the only ones who have any free will … and it is a limited free will …. are those that are already saved and can choose the things of God”

            “we have no will to choose Him …… and the reason is ….. that we have NO PART in our salvation”
            (Btw, I didn’t mention it before but will here – THAT rejects what God says in Matt. 16:24, John 1:12, Romans 10:9, and others)

          • Amos Moses

            “No contradiction? Then explain how spiritually-dead people, whom you say cannot choose anything and have no free-will, can HEAR and RESPOND to God?”

            Because God wills it ……… because God is in control of salvation …. not men …..

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Now that’s interesting. So spiritually-dead people can’t do any of those things you just say they can’t because they’re spiritually-dead but yet they can if God wills it? Well, are they dead or not? Now that makes a ton of sense! You have a little problem there, Sir.

            And AGAIN, I have NEVER said that God is not in control of salvation. See my example again about the beggar and sandwich and this time spend a little time chewing on that.

          • Amos Moses

            we are ALL born dead in trespasses and sins …. are we not …….. does not scripture, in fact the VERY scripture YOU pointed to, Eph 2, not say that RIGHT AT THE TOP ….. not a problem for me, ….. or God, … or scripture …….. it is ALL Gods will …. not ours ……

            Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

            Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

            as i said …. as SCRIPTURE says ….. UNTIL Christ quickens us ….. quickens means to brings us to life in Him … out of death ….. spiritual death ….. just as Lazarus ……. just as Christ Himself died and was risen ………

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Yes we are. BUT that says NOTHING about Man not having Free Will nor about the ability to respond to God’s call. You have ADDED that thru your own eisegesis and filtering thru TULIP.

            “as i said” – Now that’s Truth.

            “as SCRIPTURE says” – And that’s a Lie.

          • Amos Moses

            ” See my example again about the beggar and sandwich and this time spend a little time chewing on that.”

            Yeah …. not sure what that means …….. if you care to C&P it here i will respond to it …..

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Well, that shows me that you’re not even reading what I write but jumping in just to give a retort. I really don’t like repeating myself but I’ll do so here once for the benefit of you and all others who may not be tracking this whole conversation. And since you obviously just skipped over most of that post, I’ll C&P the last half here but I’d suggest you go back up and actually read the whole thing this time:

            “To the rest of your comments, I will only say that the mistake you make is the same one by all Monergists who confuse surrender an dying with a work. A beggar isn’t contributing to his belly being filled when one gives him a sandwich because of his begging.

            And I’m not even gonna bother addressing the rest of your comments because you are obviously in the Flesh as evidenced by your bearing FALSE witness against me. I am NOT saying any such thing. Now hang on to that and Matt. 5:23-24 when you to church and offer up your sacrifice of praise.

            THIS is exactly why folks don’t wanna engage with you and your ilk. You don’t, and perhaps cant’, back up your theology nor evidently hold a reasonable discussion with another Christian but rather resort to putting words in the others mouths and falsely characterizing them. Hmmm, isn’t it a bit odd that those who can’t do anything without God doing it for them have no problem sinning and bearing false witness against another?!

            I told you in my OP that this is an issue that hasn’t been settled in 200yrs and had been debated by far more better theologians than you or are and was best just to leave it there but you just couldn’t do that.

            Well, now you’ve openly sinned before all. Let’s see just what your witness is worth on that.”

          • Amos Moses

            “A beggar isn’t contributing to his belly being filled when one gives him a sandwich because of his begging.”

            okay …. not really any scripture there …. not really sure what your point is …….. about as clear as mud …… well …. mud would be clearer ………..

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Actually, it is sorta in Scripture. The first Beatitude.

            As for your last little snarky remark, thanks for showing that you can keep things civil and for showing that you can’t see. Because I’d imagine most Christians can understand the analogy just fine.

            But you have made it perfectly clear just what a Calvinist thinks is clear as mud. Much appreciated!

          • Amos Moses

            “THIS is exactly why folks don’t wanna engage with you and your ilk. ”

            they lose … as you are losing …. thats why ……. it is all backed up with scripture … and the only one stuck on TULIP and Calvinism is you ………. and that is why you are losing …. you cant talk enough scripture and you need cover ……….. your attempting to distract from your lack of it is revealing …….

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            LOL. I ain’t lost a thing. You sank your boat all on your own and your Pride is TYPICAL of every Calvinist I’ve ever tried to have a discussion with.

            And you just PROVED again that you’re operating outta the Flesh by climbing up on the throne of God once again with your phony, misguided, fake omniscience.

            I’ve never accused you of what you’re trying to do or attempted to read your mind or assigned motives to your heart but you folks always go there which is PROOF that you’re not in the Spirit but the Flesh and exactly where these lies come from. Jesus said it’s what comes outta the mouth that reveals the heart. Thank you.

            As for talking enough Scripture, I’ll leave it to God and to others to decide how well I’ve done that.

          • Amos Moses

            you have lost … because you do not want to talk about Ephesians and the Ephesian church ……… BECAUSE YOU CANT … because it DESTROYS EVERTYTHING you are trying to say about scripture …. and until you can reconcile Ephesians with your views …. you will CONTINUE to LOSE ………….

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            As I said, I haven’t lost a thing. You sank your boat and your striking out with empty rhetoric only further reflects that.

            And JFYI, Ephesians fits just fine with my views because I take what the Bible says and don’t filter it thru TULIP.

            But hey, thanks for showing the best ya got. It’s always appreciated when the Calvinists destroy their own credibility with their own words in black & white.

          • Amos Moses

            “you are free to reject any GIFT …. and it is a gift ….. but as an unregenerate person …. you are incapable ………..”
            yes, but as scripture said …. they are incapable of accepting the things of God ….. they have no free will to accept the things of God …… UNTIL Christ quickens them …. SCRIPTURE …… Eph 1 ……. those who are not PREDESTINATED …. cannot ….

            “”dead men have no will to choose anything ….. they are dead ….. ”
            (that MUST include HEARING and RESPONDING)”
            Not hearing God …. until GOD wills it …. yes, but as scripture said …. they are incapable of accepting the things of God ….. they have no free will to accept the things of God …… UNTIL Christ quickens them …. SCRIPTURE …… Eph 1 ……. those who are not PREDESTINATED …. cannot ….

            “”we have no free will to choose until He chooses us …….”
            (that MUST include HEARING and RESPONDING)”
            again …… NOT UNTIL GOD WILLS IT ……. Scripture …. not mens will ….. GODS ………..

            “(Btw, I didn’t mention it before but will here – THAT rejects what God says in Matt. 16:24, John 1:12, Romans 10:9, and others)”
            again ……… NOT until God wills it ……… no contradiction ……… it is all GODS will working in us ….. NOT OUR will and response ……..

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            “you are free to reject any GIFT …. and it is a gift ….. but as an unregenerate person …. you are incapable ………..”
            yes, but as scripture said …. they are incapable of accepting the things of God ….

            Once again you’re showing the ways of Satan. First, your “you are free to reject any GIFT …. and it is a gift ….. but as an unregenerate person …. you are incapable ………..” is completely nonsensical and illogical. One can NOT be FREE TO REJECT if they are incapable of doing so. That’s your first problem!

            Secondly, STOP misquoting God and misusing His Word!!!! 1Cor 2:14 does NOT say they are INCAPABLE nor does it say they can’t ACCEPT. Just READ what the verse SAYS and STOP filtering it thru your TULIP!!

            The verse says they do not RECEIVE the Word BECAUSE…wait for it…wait for it….because why??? Because they’re spiritually-dead and can’t???…. NO!!! It’s says BECAUSE it is FOOLISHNESS to them!!!! How could it be FOOLISHNESS if they were incapable of even hearing it????!!!!!!!!!!

            The verse goes on to say he can not UNDERSTAND them BECAUSE…wait for it….wait for it….because why??? Because they’re spiritually-dead and can’t??… NO!!! It says BECAUSE they are spiritually discerned. Nothing in this verse says anything about them being incapable. THAT is you ADDING to God’s Word which is SIN!! All the verse says and clearly means is that the Unbeliever does not have the spirit of God in them as do Believers so God must reveal spiritual truths to them. And that is completely consistent with Romans 1 and the rest of the Bible.

            This is a great example of how the Calvinists read Scripture and twist it to say what they what it to mean. Don’t miss the connection between Romans 1 and 1st Cor. 2:14. IF Unbelievers are “incapable” of understanding then Romans 1 is a lie BECAUSE that passage is referring to Unbelievers. It’s either that or God regenerates them so they can understand and then what – unregenerates them?

            I’m not going to address the Ephesians passage and the whole “predestination” issue because it is a whole new and different discussion, and, if you can’t tell, this one alone has gone on far too long.

            I already said at least 3x now that this is a discussion that has gone on for thousands of years with theologians far better equipped than you or are and it hasn’t been settled but you just won’t let it go.

          • Amos Moses

            “One can NOT be FREE TO REJECT if they are incapable of doing so. That’s your first problem!”

            they are free to reject any gift …. but they cannot discern the gift of God and so cannot by free will accept …. they cannot discern it ……… they are incapable ……

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Again, you’re showing an adherence that doesn’t make any sense at all and is totally illogical.

            One can NOT reject a gift if they don’t have the Free Will to do so and have not discerned that it is a Gift from God. That’s the very definition of Rejection. It’s impossible to reject something that is not there.

          • Amos Moses

            “Secondly, STOP misquoting God and misusing His Word!!!! 1Cor 2:14”

            2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
            2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
            2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
            2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
            2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

            where does it say they are capable of discerning the things of god so that they may accept ….. IT DOES NOT ………. How can the natural man accept things spiritually discerned …. they are not capable ……… as it says “neither can he know them,” ……..

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Right there in Verse 14. God says they do not “receive the things of the Spirit BECAUSE they are foolishness. So yes, IT DOES.

            As to the second part, once again you show the typical Calvinist reading of Scripture. You stop at “neither can he know them” and negate the rest of the verse which says they are “spiritually discerned”. THAT is perfectly consistent with Romans 1 – just as I’ve said maybe a dozen times now – because the Holy Spirit Illuminates their mind SPIRITUALLY and brings them the Truth which they then exercise their Free Will and deny/reject it.

            It’s right there in black & white when one removes the TULIP filter.

            Man is incapable of knowing spiritual things on his own but God is not incapable of making His spiritual-things PLAINLY KNOWN to them. Or are you gonna say that God is not capable of that and deny Romans 1 again? And are you ever gonna answer the question as to whether God regenerates someone to KNOW and then Unregenerates them so they can’t respond?

            1 Cor. 2:14 says exactly what it says. The natural man can not understand the things of God UNLESS God opens their minds to understand which Romans 1 makes clear happens and so does Romans 2:15.

          • Amos Moses

            “I will just say that once again you’re ADDING to Scripture because Eph. 1 says NOTHING about Free Will.”

            you wil not find free will in scripture …. you HAVE TO ADD IT …….. there is a good reason why you will not find it ……. because it has NOT ONE THING TO DO WITH SALVATION …….. God is the only one with free will to choose whom He Will Choose …. Not Us ….

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Is that the best you can do? You will not find the word Trinity in Scripture. You will not find the words “Hypostatic Union” in Scripture. You will not find the word “Rapture” in Scripture,.

            And you can be doggone sure you ain’t gonna find the word TULIP in Scripture

            But you WILL find the words “if”, “choose”, “because”, etc.

            As for the last, you can continue to regurgitate that Calvin gruel all day long until the cows some home but it remains false and it won’t change the Truth of Scripture.

          • Amos Moses

            Deal with Ephesians …….. or LOSE ……..

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Already did. Said it 3x now!! Haven’t lost a thing. But you have because you can’t address the Scriptures I cited.

          • Amos Moses

            nope …. if you cannot incorporate predestination into you exegesis …. you lose ……. you do not get to ignore part of scripture …. and you do not get to spin it to your preconceived idea of what it says …… and what salvation is …. and all you want to “cite” is “calvinism” …. when the discussion is scripture ……….

            so what is it ….. Free Will ….. or Free Grace ………….. cant have both ………. it is not a mix ….. it is black and white …….. and the plan of salvation was set to one of them for all …….

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Nope… I have incorporated predestination into my exegesis… you lose!! Faux omniscience and walking in the Flesh does EVERY time!!!!

            And you do NOT get to spin Scripture thru your preconceived TULIP filters.

            Wrong again. One CAN and DOES have Free Will and Free Grace. So says God.

            The rest is regurgitated nonsense that you’ve vomited up now about a dozen times and I’ve already provided the Scriptures that say so.

            Nice distraction away from your false teaching that faith is not required for Salvation. Though you did say it again even there.

          • Amos Moses

            if you believe that we bring faith …. then that is a work of men …. and the spinning is yours …. and again …. this is not about Calvin or calvinism ……. distraction and strawman argument ……….

            Sola Fide, by faith alone.
            Sola Scriptura, by Scripture alone.
            Solus Christus, through Christ alone.
            Sola Gratia, by grace alone.
            Soli Deo Gloria, glory to God alone.

            so i take it you reject this also ……….. that we need more than Christ to be saved ………. that somehow spiritually dead men get faith from ….. where ….. how ….. when ….. we bring absolutely nothing to the table that God requires to be saved ……. not even faith … it is a free gift of God ……… God does not need even one thing from us ….. we need Him ….

            Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

            “Wrong again. One CAN and DOES have Free Will and Free Grace. So says God.” ….

            no scripture …. all you bring is law to salvation …….. an unregenerate man has no will to choose the things of God …….. he is unregenerate …….. he is dead …….. we bring absolutely nothing to the table that God requires to be saved ……. not even faith … it is a free gift of God ………

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            “if you believe that we bring faith …. then that is a work of men”

            Nope. That’s according to you and Calvinism. Not God.

            ” it is a free gift of God”

            “It” refers to Salvation. Not faith. Salvation is the free Gift. Not faith.

            “God does not need even one thing from us ….. we need Him”

            Never said otherwise. You can continue to try and put words in my mouth but you’re just being like Satan when you do.

            “no scripture …. all you bring is law to salvation”

            More false accusations. I’ll give you this, at least you’re consistent. Too bad you’re not repentant.

            “an unregenerate man has no will to choose the things of God”

            Nope. Another lie. “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name” (John 1:12) NOTE the pronouns.

            “we bring absolutely nothing to the table that God requires to be saved”

            Wrong again. We bring a surrendered life and the prayer of a Beggar. Got requires confession, a broken spirit, surrender, and repentance.

          • Amos Moses

            your debate technique and inability to stay on point …. to distract …. is reminiscent of the debate i saw between James White and George Bryson …….. Bryson could not win either ….. FAIL ……..

            Who Controls Salvation? – White vs Bryson

            on the youtube machine …….

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Your debate technique of making things personal and inability to stay on point is reminiscent of many I’ve seen and exactly what happens when one can’t back up their position with Scripture. And distraction? You talk about distraction? YOU have FAILED to address the Scriptures I’ve cited AND it is YOU who have stated the LIE that ALL Israel was saved. I am the one who PROVED that is a LIE with Scripture.

            Btw, I’m quite familiar with James White. Watch his DL, other videos, and debates all the time. He’s spot on with most of his messages. Just not with his Monergism beliefs.

          • PilgrimGirl

            “Except a man be born from above, he cannot see [perceive, understand] the kingdom of God…Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”. John 3

            It is the Spirit that quickens, the flesh profits nothing.

          • Amos Moses

            Amen ……..

            John
            6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
            6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
            6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
            6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

          • PilgrimGirl

            Amen!!

            “Not unto us, O Lord, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth’s sake.” Psalm 115:1

          • Amos Moses

            Then you’ve called God a Liar again and the Scriptures I provided are PROOF texts.

            i have yet to see you present it ……….

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Take off your TULIP filters and read God’s Word for what it says and you will

          • Amos Moses

            again …. not dealing with scripture as a cover for your lack of it …. deal with Ephesians …

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            AGAIN, another empty rhetorical statement that lack any substance.

            And, as I said before, I’ve dealt with Ephesians. I tore you supposition apart piece by piece by quoting God’s Word and providing indisputable evidence in black & white that reveals your false TULIP oriented teachings.

            Now deal with that.

          • Amos Moses

            “Right there, at the very beginning is God saying that He spoke to a spiritually-dead man and woman and THEY HEARD Him!!!”

            Wrong ….. this was BEFORE the fall …… in Eden …. the fall took place when they were removed from there ………. Adam was dead AFTER the fall …. and that original sin was transfered to the rest of mankind ………..

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            WRONG!! That was AFTER The Fall. Go read your Bible.

            The Fall is when Adam and Eve rebelled against God and sinned against Him.

            Gotta admit though, that’s a new one on me. Never heard that one before! WOW!

            Thanks again for showing everyone where you are coming from and your knowledge of Scripture.

            You also just called God a Liar again.

            “but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.” (Gen. 2:17)

            You say, “the fall took place when they were removed from there ………. Adam was dead AFTER the fall .”

            God says otherwise. I’ll go with God. The Fall occurred the very moment they sinned against God and they died at that moment when God removed His Spirit from them – JUST AS HE SAID HE WOULD!!

          • Amos Moses

            “The Fall is when Adam and Eve rebelled against God and sinned against Him.”

            Right …. and then were expelled for the offence … and fell to earth …. hence the FALL ………… and they sentenced to death due to sin …. it was not immediate death …. but that is when sin and death entered the world …. THE FALL …………. i am glad you learned something knew ….

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Nice attempt to walk back you falsehood and clear statement. Unless you’ve changed it, it’s all there for everyone to see.

            The Fall occurred at the very moment they sinned against God. Period.

            And thanks for showing everyone that once again you deny the truth of God’s Word and make Him out to be a Liar. I already quoted the verse for all to see but your denying it is worth repeating it again.

            You say, ” it was not immediate death” and then “but that is when sin and death entered the world”.

            God says, “but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.” (Gen. 2:17)

            Sin and death entered the world the very moment that Eve SINNED!!! Gimme a break!! That isn’t rocket science. And God said they would die when that happened. The “for in the day” doesn’t mean or even imply that there was ANY lapse in time. The Fall occurred when Sin was committed. Romans 6:23. The wages of sin is death. God removed His spirit from them the moment they sinned.

            I didn’t learn anything from that nonsense. Too bad you didn’t learn from the Truth.

          • Amos Moses

            The fall started there ………. and continues to this day ……….. you lose … FAIL ….

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            LOL. What is that supposed to say other than I somehow lose and FAIL???

            The Fall occurred EXACTLY when and as I said it did. The very moment of their sin.

            From Theopedia:

            “The Fall is the traditional term referring to the first sin of Adam and Eve which brought judgment upon both nature and mankind. Genesis 3:1-24 gives the account of the Fall of humanity. Sin and death entered the world, and humanity has been affected by it ever since. This came about because Adam and Eve disobeyed God’s commandment not to eat of the “tree of knowledge of good and evil.”

            6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings. (Gen. 3:6-7)

            NOTE the “THEN”. That is immediate. Not later. Not at some point later as you say when they were kicked out of the Garden but right THEN!!

            The fall started there….and continues to this day…. you lose…FAIL.

            But hey, thanks for giving me an opportunity to share God’s Word and shine the light of Truth on your lies.

          • Amos Moses

            Abraham did not Choose God and neither did Joshua ……. God chose them …. they were saved by Grace just as any other in scripture ….

            4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
            4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
            4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
            4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

            there were no works of Abraham, including choosing God, if so then show it ….. because scripture says NO …….

            Where does it say Abram chose God ….. this is the first mention of him in scripture other than his birth ….. where does it say it ……..

            12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
            12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
            12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
            12:4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            If you wish to call God a Liar go right ahead. I’m not gonna.

            They were saved by Grace THRU Faith! You keep leaving that part out. Twist not Scripture lest you be like Satan. Need I remind you that Satan quoted Scripture to Jesus verbatim?

            You quote the Scriptures and don’t even see what it says. Read Verse 3 again. There is NO contradiction there. It is only the Calvinists who try to turn “believed” into a work. It is not.

            You’re getting hung up on the word “chose”. I have never denied that God is the one who initiates but I maintain that it is Man who responds. One way or the other. Surrenders and accepts or rejects and denies. Of their own free will.

            And btw, it did not escape my attention that you failed to address your including 1Cor 2:14 in your reply to me. Why?

          • Amos Moses

            “If you wish to call God a Liar go right ahead. I’m not gonna.”

            i have not called you or God a liar ….. i am asking you to use scripture to make your case …. using exigesis …. and not the eisegesis you are want to use …….. and to this point you have not done it and i have ………..

            Verse 3 ………. “4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.” …. there is NO CONTRADICTION …. you are putting the EMphasis on the wrong syLAble …. and what it DOES NOT SAY …. is that Abraham chose God ….. it says GOD CHOSE Abraham by GODS GRACE ………. and that if it was the other way around ………. then it was not Grace that saved Abraham …. and it would have been a DEBT……..”4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.” …… God does not create Debt to save …. He Redeems …….. and the plan of salvation HAS NOT CHANGED because God has not changed ………

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            You said, “Abraham did not Choose God and neither did Joshua”

            I didn’t address Abraham because the word “choose” isn’t specifically stated and i’m not looking to argue the point any further.

            However, I did previously cite Deuteronomy 30 where God CLEARLY commands the people to CHOOSE, Joshua 24:15 where Joshua CLEARLY tells the People to CHOOSE:

            ““If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

            And which should be clearly seen as a CHOICE that Joshua made. And I also cited Matthew 16:24 which is Jesus CLEARLY telling what must be done for someone to be saved. And it requires an Unbeliever – ergo, a spiritually dead person – to CHOOSE!!

            I never made any claim that it was “the other way around”. You are making a false dichotomy and a false assumption. In fact, I have repeated stated here that it is God who MUST FIRST INITIATE but that it is then up to Man to RESPOND. God first chooses and the Man chooses to accept or reject. I’ve said that more than once now.

            And once again you’ve cited God’s Grace but NEGLECTED to cite the FULL of it which is BY/THRU FAITH!!

          • Amos Moses

            First … the nation of Israel was CHOSEN by God …….. so NO contradiction …… so they heard His voice and could CHOOSE …. and who did the choosing ……… GOD did …. Israel did not become a nation of THEIR will …. but GODS will ……

            Deu 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

            Deu 14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            “First … the nation of Israel was CHOSEN by God”

            That’s correct. And while you didn’t admit that God calls Israel the “Elect”, I will remind you and others who might be following that is the case. Now, is/was ALL Israel saved?? Understand that and you’ll understand “Elect” throughout Scripture – including the NT and you’ll begin to understand why Calvinism is false.

            “so they heard His voice and could CHOOSE …. and who did the choosing ……… GOD did ….”

            Again, twisting Scripture. This time by omission. You left out the FULL counsel of God where the People RESPOND to God by making a vow before God and Moses at Mt. Sinai.

            Nice try.

            “Deu 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.”

            Yup. True enough. Now did that apply to ALL those people? Or ONLY to those who RESPONDED according to His will?????

            Moreover, God never contradicts Himself and He doesn’t do so in Deut. 30 by telling the People to CHOOSE!!

          • Amos Moses

            “And while you didn’t admit that God calls Israel the “Elect””

            no need to admit what is obvious …… but they are not the only “Elect” …….. and we as christians are grafted in …. that we are also elect ………we are RE – Formed Jews …. and so also of the Elect ……..

            “You left out the FULL counsel of God where the People RESPOND to God by making a vow before God and Moses at Mt. Sinai.”

            No twisting …….. the same grace that applies to us applied to them ……… there was no “response” that was required ….. if so then show the scripture ……… they were compelled as they had no will greater than God ……..

            “Yup. True enough. Now did that apply to ALL those people? Or ONLY to those who RESPONDED according to His will?????
            Moreover, God never contradicts Himself and He doesn’t do so in Deut. 30 by telling the People to CHOOSE!!”

            They were all collectively saved, collectively baptized, and could all hear Him …. as He actually spoke words they could hear ……

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            “No twisting …….. the same grace that applies to us applied to them ……… there was no “response” that was required ….. if so then show the scripture ……… they were compelled as they had no will greater than God ”

            Exodus 24:7 is the Scripture. NO compulsion. And that is why God holds them accountable later.

            Yes, you’ve made it clear that you believe ALL the Hebrews were saved. God says otherwise. I’ll leave it to you to argue why you think those who were worshipping the Golden Calf were saved when God ordered them to be killed. And I’ll leave it to you to argue with God why you think those who sided against Moses and Korah’s Rebellion were saved.

          • Amos Moses

            God CHOSE Joshua …… Numbers ……..
            27:15 And Moses spake unto the LORD, saying,
            27:16 Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,
            27:17 Which may go out before them, and which may go in before them, and which may lead them out, and which may bring them in; that the congregation of the LORD be not as sheep which have no shepherd.
            27:18 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him;

            And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua ………

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Yes, God CHOSE Joshua

            And Joshua CHOSE God. Joshua 24:15. And probably others if I took the time to go look.

            It was no different with Moses. God CHOSE Moses BUT Moses then CHOSE to surrender to God and obey Him. THAT is EVIDENT when God says He got angry with Moses for Moses initially arguing with God about doing what God told Him to do. THAT is another OBVIOUS thing to see for anyone who will take off their TULIP filters.

            Now, once again, I’ll see if I can save us some time. You are NEVER going to prove that there is not a relationship between God and Man. Yes, God CHOOSES Men BUT the Men MUST then RESPOND by CHOOSING God.

            THAT is a CONSTANT theme THROUGHOUT ALL SCRIPTURE.

          • Amos Moses

            nope …….. Joshua was compelled by God …. Moses was compelled to follow God …. you keep wanting to say that a person has the will to resist God once God has quickened them ….. no …….. that puts mans will above and greater than Gods ….. is that what you really want to say ………… there is a relationship between God and man ….. and it is ALL controlled by God …..

            “Yes, God CHOOSES Men BUT the Men MUST then RESPOND by CHOOSING God.”

            almost got it ……. they are COMPELLED to follow God ….. they have no will greater than God ………..

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Nope.

            “Joshua was compelled by God”

            That’s Calvinist speak. NOT ONE WORD of Scripture says such. Just the opposite. Joshua 24:15 says Joshua CHOSE God. That’s Free Will. NOT compulsion.

            “you keep wanting to say that a person has the will to resist God once God has quickened them ….. no …….. that puts mans will above and greater than Gods …”

            Yup I do. And I can prove that too. Do you sin? Is it the will of God that you sin? Does God compel you to sin? Or do you resist the will of God and the Holy Spirit that indwells you?

          • Amos Moses

            “And once again you’ve cited God’s Grace but NEGLECTED to cite the FULL of it which is BY/THRU FAITH!!”

            The source of all faith is Gods Grace ….faith is a GIFT from God …. it is ALL Gods work ……..

            Eph
            2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
            2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: ,<– faith is a gift from God
            2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            “The source of all faith is Gods Grace ….faith is a GIFT from God …. it is ALL Gods work …”

            That is Calvinistic teaching and ADDING to the Word of God. The passage does NOT say that. The GIFT being referred to in that passage is Salvation. NOT “faith”.

          • Amos Moses

            Nope …. and seem stuck on “calvinism” and not on SCRIPTURE ……….. the only one here talking “Calvinism” is you …. and it seems to have you distracted from the issue …… SCRIPTURE …….

            None of our salvation has anything to do with us …. if it did … then we would not need Christ to be saved ….. you have no scripture that says God relies on us for anything …. most of all our salvation ….. all gifts of our salvation comes from Christ ….. repentance, grace, salvation, faith, etc. ……….. OTHERWISE it is adding LAW to salvation … and it is no longer a gift ……… if i have to to anything …. it is MY work …. and not CHRISTS work in me ……… and that is robbing GLORY from Christ …….. and that IS ADDING TO SCRIPTURE and salvation …. that idea is nullifying Christ work and Resurrection …….. making it of no effect …

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Once AGAIN, you are conflating things. First, I REPEATEDLY have said that I have NEVER said our Salvation has anything to do with us. Surrendering to Christ as a slave and denying oneself is just that. Nothing more. The beggar analogy fits.

            Gifts must be received. You neglect to mention and evidently to accept that but numerous Scriptures say that one must receive Christ.

          • Amos Moses

            the nation of Israel is unique in scripture …. they had a common salvation as a nation …. a common baptism …. they all were saved collectively … by Gods will …. and not of their own …. and as such they heard Gods voice …. His ACTUAL voice ….. no contradiction ..

            Deu
            4:31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
            4:32 For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and ask from the one side of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it?
            4:33 Did ever people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live?
            4:34 Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, by temptations, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?
            4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.
            4:36 Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: and upon earth he shewed thee his great fire; and thou heardest his words out of the midst of the fire.

            Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee:

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            “the nation of Israel is unique in scripture …. they had a common salvation as a nation …. a common baptism …. they all were saved collectively … by Gods will …. and not of their own …. and as such they heard Gods voice …. His ACTUAL voice ….. no contradiction ..”

            WOW!! That is a TOTAL contradiction of Scripture!

            I don’t even know where to begin with THAT!! The entire OT speaks to that falsehood as does the NT. I would imagine that every book in the OT probably refutes that. I can’t believe you actually said that!!

            Not only is NOT everyone of Israel saved as evidenced by the numerous passages where God says they will be “cut off” if they rebel but you just proved my point. There were MANY standing there at Mt. Sinai that day who were NOT regenerated but did hear God’s voice and would be lost forever.

            Moreover, if memory serves me correctly, that is the ONLY time in the OT that the People, as a whole, heard God speak. Apart from that it was thru Moses and the Prophets.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            “they all were saved collectively … by Gods will”

            I need to add a few things here in the hopes that LadyinChrist who upvoted you and anyone else following this discussion sees it.

            That is an absolute falsehood for the following reasons:

            1) Exodus 32 says VERY clearly that the 3000 Israelite men the Levites killed had sinned against God and in Verse 33 He said would blot their names and ALL those who had sinned against Him by worshipping the calf outta the Book of Life. That doesn’t even include the women so we don’t know for sure how many but what is sure is that they were NOT saved!!

            2) God says He is not a respecter of persons.

            3) God says without faith it is impossible to please Him

            4) God says everyone is saved by faith

            So, once AGAIN, you have been PROVEN to be speaking FALSELY for God.

          • Amos Moses

            i have no disagreement with any of that ….. as to what it proves …. nothing about me …. does not alter the facts that i stated …. they were collectively baptized in the passage through the Red Sea ….. they all heard His voice because it was audible …. He literally spoke the Ten Commandments to the nation at Sinai … and it is all stated in
            1 Corinthians 10 ……..

            10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
            10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
            10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
            10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
            10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
            10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
            10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

            So the false here is your accusation …. and all this ….
            “2) God says He is not a respecter of persons.
            3) God says without faith it is impossible to please Him
            4) God says everyone is saved by faith”

            OUT OF CONTEXT ………….

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Now you are showing Deception. You can’t walk back what you said:

            “they all were saved collectively … by Gods will”

            So yes, what I posted DOES prove you are WRONG and it DOES say something about you that you refuse to confess and repent from your speaking falsely about God.

            Instead you further add more sin to your sins by speaking falsely for God again with:

            ” they were collectively baptized in the passage through the Red Sea”

            No, they were not. That is again eisegesis and twisting God’s Word. The Hebrews were NOT immersed in the Red Sea. Moreover the passage clearly says they were “baptized unto Moses”. That is NOT “collective salvation” from God!!

            That is evidenced by the next three verses that you, once AGAIN, conveniently choose to ignore and not include:

            “8 Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9 Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. 10 Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.”

            I agreed with you earlier that we were Brothers and should drop this according to Romans 14:1 and just agree that we each consider the other to be the weaker one but you, AGAIN, would have none of that. And so you’ve continued.

            Now, you may have crossed the line. You just said that by claim that “God says everyone is saved by faith” is false. So I must ask you, what EXACTLY are you saying? How exactly is that a false statement? How is ANYONE saved other than by or apart from Faith?

            I submit that Romans 4, specifically Verse 16, makes it VERY clear that Faith is an absolute requirement for salvation.

            I further submit that those 3 points you reject are NOT false and are NOT “out of context” as evidenced by the following:

            1) Acts 10:34 is the same paragraph as Verse 43 which says, “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” THAT is talking about FAITH!!

            2) Hebrews 11. Specifically Verse 6!!!! For it says, “for he who comes to God must believe that He is”!!! THAT is talking about FAITH!!

            Verse 7 giveS further evidence with “By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.” THAT is talking about FAITH!!

            So, AGAIN, it’s pretty obvious that you didn’t even bother to look those passages up but rather just gave a quick ‘Huh uh. False. OUT OF CONTEXT’ reply. Further evidence of being in the Flesh, stiffnecked, and denying the Truth of God’s Word.

            Now you must provide Scripture that shows ANYONE – one single person – being saved apart from Faith. Let alone an entire nation!!!

            If you don’t and hold to what I said as being false then I can no longer consider you a Brother for you are preaching a different Gospel from a different Bible.

          • Amos Moses

            “And btw, it did not escape my attention that you failed to address your including 1Cor 2:14 in your reply to me. Why?”

            1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

            not sure what your point is ….. my point is that there are men who do not belong to God, are not the elect, and never will be ………. they are not His sheep ….. He is here for His sheep and His sheep ONLY ….

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Ok, just so long as you are NOT claiming that I am not a Follower of Jesus Christ and a “natural man” who can’t receive the things of God.

            Again, you misunderstand and misapply what the “elect” is. Are you aware that the Nation of Israel is specifically called in a few places of the OT “The Elect”??

            So, since you want to continue this and keep on going, are you a Supralapsarian or an Infralapsarian? Just at what point did God decide to “elect” some to Salvation and some to Reprobation?

          • Amos Moses

            is there universal salvation ……….

            “Just at what point did God decide to “elect” some to Salvation and some to Reprobation?”

            Before the foundation of the world (universe) was laid ….. according to the good pleasure of his will ……. not mens will … scripture …….

            1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
            1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
            1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

            Christ is not a thief …….. He is not here to save everyone …. there is no Glory for God in saving everyone ….. He is here for His and He will not lose even one that belongs to Him ….. BUT ONLY His ….. the elect ….. His sheep ……. who HEAR His voice …. and it is really cool when you understand that reference …. sheep WILL NOT follow another Master … these are about 5 minutes …. but again …. REALLY cool ……

            youtube;com/watch?v=e45dVgWgV64 – change the ; to a .
            now you can say that the sheep could see their master and knew it was not him calling ……

            youtube;com/watch?v=Coq_grSFlN… – change the ; to a .

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            “is there universal salvation”? No.

            “Before the foundation of the world (universe) was laid ….. according to the good pleasure of his will ……. not mens will … scripture …….”

            Wrong again. First there is NOTHING in that passage that says anything about Man not having Free Will. There are several varying views as to how that came to pass. Even within Calvinism!! Which reminds me, you never answered my question. Are you a Supralapsarian or Infralapsarian? That reply would seem to indicate the former.

            “Christ is not a thief …….. He is not here to save everyone …. there is no Glory for God in saving everyone ….. ”

            So you call God a Liar and have the arrogance to tell God what brings Him glory or not. Got it. THANKS!!

            “He is here for His and He will not lose even one that belongs to Him”

            Again, another part of TULIP that is a separate issue and I’m not going into anymore of your false teachings.

          • Amos Moses

            “is there universal salvation”? No.

            thank you for your admission ……….

            “there is NOTHING in that passage that says anything about Man not having Free Will.”

            Nope …. that was not the question … you asked …. “Just at what point did God decide to “elect” some to Salvation and some to Reprobation?” …. and scripture plainly answers that … and i gave you the scripture and the answer ….. but nice try at switching the topic …. again … the answer from scripture was ….. “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundationof the world” ….. and you twisted the answer to another topic …. FALSE REPRESENTATION …

            “So you call God a Liar and have the arrogance to tell God what brings Him glory or not. Got it. THANKS!!”

            God told us what brings Glory to God ……. again … twisting ….

            43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
            43:8 Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears.
            43:9 Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.
            43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
            43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

            “”He is here for His and He will not lose even one that belongs to Him”
            Again, another part of TULIP that is a separate issue and I’m not going into anymore of your false teachings.”

            Nope … not a separate issue ….. you told us up front …. there is no universal salvation ….. God is not here to find sheep that are not His ….. the Elect are who He is here to obtain ……..His sheep …… and you can run away from this all you want ….. but yours are the answers that do not comport to scripture …………

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            “thank you for your admission”

            I’ve never said otherwise. Neither is there a “collective salvation” as you claim. God says there is ONLY one way to be saved and that is thru Faith. NO exceptions. Despite what you claim.

            “Nope …. that was not the question … you asked …. “Just at what point did God decide to “elect” some to Salvation and some to Reprobation?” …. and scripture plainly answers that … and i gave you the scripture and the answer .”

            Not switching the topic at all. You implied that it happened at some time before the foundation of the world and you have stated it was outta compulsion. I am saying that the verse says NOTHING about that and does NOT in any way rule out Free Will. Nice little fiery dart there though. Thanks for plainly showing your operating outta the Flesh.

            “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundationof the world” ….. and you twisted the answer to another topic …. FALSE REPRESENTATION .”

            I twisted nothing. As I’ve said numerous times, there is NOTHING in that passage that refutes Free Will. It just says what it does. So thanks for showing again you’re in the Flesh with the false accusation. And btw, you still have not answer the question – at least TWICE now – are you a Supralapsarian or Infralapsarian?

            “Nope … not a separate issue ….. you told us up front …. there is no universal salvation ….. God is not here to find sheep that are not His ….. the Elect are who He is here to obtain ……..His sheep …… and you can run away from this all you want ….. but yours are the answers that do not comport to scripture ”

            Nope. Saying there is no universal salvation in NO way says anything about God limiting Salvation to only a few. THAT is Calvinism. And btw, did you know that Calvin believed in Free Will?

            Additionally, your reference to “finding sheep” proves my point again as well. First, Jesus said He came to find the lost sheep of Israel. According to you, they’re all saved and none would be lost. The Bible clearly shows otherwise. Can’t believe you’d sit there and say that all the Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes and even those who yelled, “Crucify Him and let His blood be on us and our children” were saved. So much for Compulsion and no Free Will.

            Moreover, Jesus Himself bemoaned over Jerusalem and lamented how He wished they would have received Him and He’d have taken them under His wings but THEY WOULD HAVE NONE OF IT. Ergo, they weren’t saved and they had Free Will.

            “Nope … not a separate issue ….. you told us up front …. there is no universal salvation ….. God is not here to find sheep that are not His ….. the Elect are who He is here to obtain ……..His sheep …… and you can run away from this all you want ….. but yours are the answers that do not comport to scripture …”

            Yes, it is a separate issue. It’s the P in TULIP. My saying there is no universal salvation in NO way contradicts Free Will. Just as Jesus saying that He will lose no one in no way contradicts Free Will. There is not one Scripture in all the Bible that says God holds anyone against their will. Not one. But there are a ton that say “IF you hold fast”, “IF you remain”, “IF you persevere”, etc.

            And if you are gonna hold to a strict reading of “sheep” then it probably doesn’t apply to you and wouldn’t to me because I am not a Jew. Jesus makes it clear who the “sheep” were. They were the lost sheep of Israel. So you have to answer why one that is saved purely by Election could be lost!!

            That’s why my answers to Scripture comport exactly with Scripture. I’m not adding nor detracting from them.

            John 10:3 says, “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.” NOTE: That does NOT say Jesus pulled them out, pushed them out, dragged them out, or in ANY way “compelled” them. He led. They followed. Free Will.

            You can run away from this all you want but yours are the answers that do not comport to Scripture.

          • Amos Moses

            “Ok, just so long as you are NOT claiming that I am not a Follower of Jesus Christ and a “natural man” who can’t receive the things of God.”

            i believe you are saved …. i have read numerous posts from you …. some i agree …. i think you are a little off in some things ….. that does not make you unsaved ….. you are a brother worthy of correction … as am i ……

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            I agree. So now let us leave this by agreeing on Romans 14:1 and that we both think the other is the weak one. 🙂

          • Amos Moses

            “Or are you now going to deny what God says in Verses 18-22 about the things of God being PLAINLY KNOWN to them for God has made it evident to them??!!! ”

            this passage has to do with the person who says there is no God …. and they are without excuse as to that …… that is what is plainly evident ….. the evidence of God and His existence …. but they lie to themselves and deny God ….. spiritual death …. they cannot discern what they deny …….

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Which applies to ALL spiritually-dead people!! Until such time that God makes it PLAINLY known otherwise.

            I really thank you for continuing to allow me the opportunities to reveal your false teaching and blindness. Your own words are making my argument for me.

            1) You just admitted that a peson who says there is no God – who by very definition is an Unbeliever and God says a fool and therefore an UNBELIEVER – CAN AND DOES HEAR from God AND RESPOND to God.

            2) You just admitted they are without excuse BECAUSE God has made it PLAINLY known to them. SO they CAN understand in their UNREGENERATED state.

            3) You just admitted than an UNREGENERATED spiritually-dead man CAN PLAINLY KNOW the things of God when He makes it known to them. That is unless, as I stated before, you wanna try and claim that God regenerates them so they can understand and then unregenerates them.

            4) You just admitted that they lie to themselves and deny God. THEY lie to themselves and THEY deny God. That’s their Free Will.

            5) You just contradicted the above and made a totally nonsensical, illogical, and Unbiblical statement with ” they cannot discern what they deny”. One cannot deny what they don’t know. And AGAIN, you’ve ADDED to what God has said.

            And, for the record, spiritual-death is exactly what it says. It is being spiritually-dead. Separated from God. Not indwelt with the Spirit of God. That’s it. NOTHING more.

          • Amos Moses

            “1) You just admitted that a peson who says there is no God – who by very definition is an Unbeliever and God says a fool and therefore an UNBELIEVER – CAN AND DOES HEAR from God AND RESPOND to God.”
            2) You just admitted they are without excuse BECAUSE God has made it PLAINLY known to them. SO they CAN understand in their UNREGENERATED state.

            Wrong ….. hearing from God is not evidence to them …. what the passage is referring to is the entire creation …. all that evidence …..which they deny … and are without excuse …. they cannot hear God ……. their ears are stopped up … their eyes are blind …. they cannot acknowledge what they refuse to see and hear …..

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Once again you’ve shown that you have no foundation to stand upon and contradict yourself. I really do appreciate you doing so because I hope it will be edifying to all others who read this.

            First you say, “hearing from God is not evidence to them” so that PROVES:

            1) You admit that spiritually-dead people can hear from God. A clear contradiction to what you said earlier.

            2) God Almighty is powerful enough to make an Unbeliever hear Him but not powerful enough to provide evidence. Ok, if that works for you. NOT ME!

            “what the passage is referring to is the entire creation” That PROVES:

            1) You deny what the passage clearly says. God is speaking about Unbelievers. Mankind as a whole.

            18 For the wrath of God IS REVEALED from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which IS KNOWN about God IS EVIDENT within them; for God MADE IT EVIDENT to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been CLEARLY SEEN, being understood through what has been made, so that they are WITHOUT EXCUSE 21 For even though they KNEW God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools (Rom. 1:18-22)

            NOTE: 1) They suppress the truth. THAT is Free Will & NOT compulsion by God

            2) ” that which IS KNOWN about God IS EVIDENT within them; for God MADE IT EVIDENT to them.” So much for your claim of “hearing from God is not evidence to them” . God says otherwise. I’ll go with what God says.

            3) “being understood”. Self-explanatory. There goes your premise on 1st Cor. 2:14

            4) “hearing from God is not evidence to them” OR “they cannot hear God”. Well, which is it??

            5) “their ears are stopped up … their eyes are blind …. they cannot acknowledge what they refuse to see and hear”

            See? You revert back to Calvinism and rely upon that instead of Scripture. You just contradicted yourself 3x in that one comment. And you deny what God clearly says there. First you say they hear but it’s not evidence. Then you say they don’t hear and can’t acknowledge what they’ve rejected but God says it IS EVIDENT to them.

            You just sank your boat.

          • Amos Moses

            “3) You just admitted than an UNREGENERATED spiritually-dead man CAN PLAINLY KNOW the things of God when He makes it known to them. That is unless, as I stated before, you wanna try and claim that God regenerates them so they can understand and then unregenerates them.”

            NOPE …… How can they acknowledge what they refuse to see and hear …. the unregenerate person is spiritually dead ….. hence unregenerate …. uquickened ….. dead ………

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            You’re going in circles. I just answered that with your own words which you contradicted yourself and, once again, called God a Liar by denying what He has clearly said.

            See the post I just replied to where I quoted Romans 1.

          • Amos Moses

            “4) You just admitted that they lie to themselves and deny God. THEY lie to themselves and THEY deny God. That’s their Free Will.”

            they are not capable of accepting the things, the knowledge of God ….. they lie to themselves to do this ….. free will would make them able to accept the things of God ….. since they cannot make that choice they lack free will …. they are spiritually dead ………… they cannot hear God ……. their ears are stopped up … their eyes are blind …. they cannot acknowledge what they refuse to see and hear …..

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Not one word of that is Scripture. It’s all Calvinist regurgitated gruel and I just PROVED it false in the post above where I quoted you and God from Romans 1.

            Oh, and btw, you say, “they cannot acknowledge what they refuse to see and hear”. Thanks for admitting THEY refused to see and hear. THAT is Free Will.

            If your boat wasn’t already sunk with the above post, you’d have just taken on more water.

          • Amos Moses

            “5) You just contradicted the above and made a totally nonsensical, illogical, and Unbiblical statement with ” they cannot discern what they deny”. One cannot deny what they don’t know. And AGAIN, you’ve ADDED to what God has said.”

            Nope …… free will would make them able to accept the things of God …. they cannot …. they are not capable of accepting the things, the knowledge of God ….. they lie to themselves to do this ….. free will would make them able to accept the things of God ….. since they cannot make that choice they lack free will …. they are spiritually dead ………… they cannot hear God ……. their ears are stopped up … their eyes are blind …. they cannot acknowledge what they refuse to see and hear …..

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Yup. Free Will would make them able to accept the things of God. You’re absolutely right. They just CHOOSE not too. Just as God has said.

            And now you’re just repeating the same old stuff each time. Unfortunately for you, you have already ADMITTED that they did hear from God and rejected Him.

          • Amos Moses

            there is nothing about salvation that has to do with the person saved …. it is all Christs work …. LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST …. as you are want to ……

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Thanks for openly, publicly, and exercising your Free Will CHOOSING to make another false accusation against me.

            Much appreciated for it shows who you are following.

          • Amos Moses

            Prooftexting is using ONE LINE or less to prove a point that is out of context ….. all the passages i gave you are multiple passages making the point ….. IN CONTEXT ………

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            From the Dictionary:

            Proof text: a passage of the Bible to which appeal is made in support of an argument or position in theology.

            So again you speak falsely. Just as you have done with all the passages OUT OF CONTEXT

          • Amos Moses

            Nope … i am showing you the FULL counsel of God … NOT just one passage …….. but nice try ………

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Nope. And I’ve already shown how you have ADDED to the FULL counsel of God.

          • Amos Moses

            no …. you have not ……. but you think you have ……..

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            No. I have. You just don’t think I have. Just like those who PLAINLY KNOW there is a God and deny it. Denial is a powerful force.

            That said, now wasn’t that a really profitable interchange?

          • Jim Tully

            I would like to apologize to you. We do not share the same beliefs, that is fact. But I had no reason to personally attack you and drag your personal life into things. I was on the warpath yesterday and you were in my sights. What I did was mean and I am sorry.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            I had to go looking but now I see. Apology accepted. All is forgiven and all is well.

          • Amos Moses

            so you are walking down the street, you find a check for 1,000,000,000,000, the check is made out to you ….. but you are unable to read the name on the check …. you are blind and/or unable to read it …. but someone tells you it is made out to you and you are free to cash it …… is it your position that for you to cash it is “immoral” because you would not or did not ask for it …….. because that is what Christ has done ….. He paid your debt …… whether you asked Him to or not ……. but if you do not cash the check …. the debt remains unpaid …… but He made out the check for love of you …. if you will agree to cash it ………

          • Jim Tully

            an incomplete and self-serving story

          • Amos Moses

            nope …….. it is the GOSPEL …….. retold with a bit of a different slant ….. but essentially the gospel ……. the good news …. Christ paid it …. it is free …. for love of you ….. yes even you …. and all you have to do is agree with Him ………..

          • Jim Tully

            You didn’t recognize your own words?

          • Amos Moses

            yes, i did …….. and you are wrong ………

          • Jim Tully

            You ever been wrong? It must nice to be right about everything.

          • Amos Moses

            i am wrong all the time ….. but not on this ……….

          • TwoRutRoad

            That’s just dumb. First off, I have no debt, but I realize that’s not your point. MY point is that the check is fake. I would be foolish to get all excited about it when I know that it won’t be real. It’s a scam.

            I know you’ll say that it IS real. Even if it were real, I’ve read the fine print, and if you take off the god-glasses, you can read the fine print, too.

          • Amos Moses

            “That’s just dumb. First off, ”

            first off …. not the point of the question ……….. and second ….. yes you do ……..

          • TwoRutRoad

            I already said that wasn’t the point. And, no, I don’t have any debt. My house and everything I have, I own free and clear. The money thing was your idea.

          • Amos Moses

            FYI, there other types of debt …… you have debt …. your blinders … your blindness …. is keeping you from seeing it …. oh …. and your deafness …….. and it appears the idea of metaphor is lost on you …….

          • Amos Moses

            ” and if you take off the god-glasses, ”

            you seem to have that backwards …… you have blinders on and cannot see it …….. you are blind ……. you cannot even see the fine print …… much less find it ……

          • TwoRutRoad

            No, I’ve read the small print. The conditions and rules of cashing the check are, among others: Love the issuer or burn for eternity.

          • Amos Moses

            again …. you cant read the fine print … much less find it ….. and your analysis ….. “Love the issuer or burn for eternity.” is completely off base ….. so blindness confirmed ………..

  • TwoRutRoad

    Sounds to me like the church actually got to really KNOW some LGBT folks and realized that they are good people. That’s the reason most people change their minds and open their hearts.

    I grew up in a small town with all the typical prejudices. When I moved to a big city, I met and became friends with a whole mixture of people. I soon learned that it was the PERSON that mattered, not their color, not their religion, and not who they slept with.

    • Dennis Bass

      There are lots of good people going to hell. Because they don’t know Jesus does it depend how good you are or what you’ve done in life it depends if you accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as your lord and savior and turn from wickedness. No One turns from their sin until they have an encounter with Jesus. Homosexuality is a sin it’s not bigger than it’s not smaller than any other sin it’s just sin and God hates it that’s why he sent his son Jesus to shed his blood and died on a cross to pay for our sins. Has nothing with being good or bad. and I pray that you find him

      • Royce E. Van Blaricome

        Dennis, you have some truth there mixed with a lot of error. PLEASE stop spreading the cultural colloquialisms and cliches.

        While what you say about lots of “good people” going to Hell is truth, the part about Homosexuality not being any bigger or smaller than any other sin is a lie. And God HATES it when people twist His Word and lie about what He says. PLEASE consider the gravity of what you just did!!

        I have no doubt that your intentions were good but you MUST be VERY careful when speaking for God and that is what you did. Anytime one steps into the shoes of a prophet they better be absolutely certain they are speaking the truth.

        If you don’t understand why what you said is a lie, I’d be happy to point you to the Scriptures that say so. I’d also encourage you to get into a good Bible-believing, Bible-teaching church where you can submit to godly men as your leaders, (as commanded to do so) and be properly discipled, and I’d encourage you to go the the Grace To You website and look for the blog series on “Christian Cliches”. See the “Sin is Sin” article.

      • TwoRutRoad

        I refuse to let someone else pay for my crimes. It’s not moral.

        • Amos Moses

          no basis in fact ……….. has nothing to do with morality …..

      • Chris

        Ok. Let me tell you a story. A rapist rapes and kills a jewish girl. Now this Jewish girl had been incredibly kind all her short life. The rapist, on the other hand was a miserable sod who deliberately caused physical and emotion harm his entire life.

        After he rapes the girl he kills her, slowly and painfully. But he is found, tried and sentenced to execution. On his final evening he accepts Jesus as his Lord and saviour.

        Now the rapist, who never did anything good, goes to heaven, while his victim, who tried to do good her entire life, goes to hell.

        Imagine you’re explaining to the girl in hell how just her situation is. Explain to her why her ending up in hell is so just while her rapist is in heaven is just too. Please continue. I’m all ears.

        • Amos Moses

          an incomplete and self-serving story that has no meaning as to the true facts …… there is nothing to explain to the girl and her religion has not one thing to do with it ………….. except as your self-serving example ……….

        • Jim Tully

          I always wondered where would an American Indian born in 950 AD would go, to Hell or Heaven? He did not have the luxury of access the The Holy Bible. Nobody to teach him about God and his laws.

          • TwoRutRoad

            No kidding. And there are 7 billion people on the planet right now, and only two billion Christians. Hell must be crammed. Maybe I’ll get lucky and be on the outer edge where it’s not quite so hot.

          • Chris

            Didn’t you know? Hell froze over. There’s scientific evidence too.
            Type into google ‘hell freezes over’ + joke. It’s hysterical..

    • Royce E. Van Blaricome

      “Sounds to me like the church actually got to really KNOW some LGBT folks and realized that they are good people.”

      Given your ears, it is not surprising that is what this sounds like to you. But for those who have ears to hear, it sounds much differently. Here’s what God says:

      “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. ”
      (Rom 3:10-12)

      And you are dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you walk according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them you live in the lusts of your flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:1-4)

      And here is the heart that you think they are opening:

      “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?”
      (Jer 17:9)

      “I soon learned that it was the PERSON that mattered, not their color, not their religion, and not who they slept with.”

      I hope that you soon learn that it IS the PERSON of the Lord Jesus Christ that matters.

    • Amos Moses

      good people? ….. first …. no such thing ….. we are all sinners in the hands of an angry God ….. angry for breaking His law …… and our hearts are open to them ….. but not if they think they can continue to break the law and have fellowship with those that reject that idea …….. there is no fellowship between law breakers and those that reject breaking of the law …..

      • TwoRutRoad

        Amos, BUDDY! It’s…….been…..a……long…..time! I’m sorry you think there are no good people. Sound like your god needs to start over AGAIN. Maybe he’ll get it right next time, and quit tinkering around.

        • Jim Tully

          Sounds like God needs anger management.

          • TwoRutRoad

            Agreed. Right from the start he was mad at Adam and Eve. Eventually he killed everyone off in a flood, and now he’s angry again.

          • Jim Tully

            Why do you think he’s so mad all the time? He can’t possible feel unfulfilled, can he? After all, he’s God. He’s all powerful.

          • TwoRutRoad

            Maybe too many people are praying for him to change his plan, which must not have been a part of his plan.

        • Amos Moses

          ” I’m sorry you think there are no good people. ”

          Scripture say it …. experience proves it …… and it has already been pointed out to you ………..

  • Dennis Bass

    I was a practicing homosexual for a good many years until I had an encounter with Jesus Christ. Now I am born again and I no longer desires sexual perversion that homosexuality is. Once you have had a real encounter with the real living God you will no longer desire the sin and sexual pleasures of this world. I have a love for God and a hatred for sin. And homosexuality is a sin two invited into your church openly you have now close the door two serving God you will now be serving Satan. You have been tricked into believing that that brings Unity it does not it only brings evil into your church. Repent and turn back to God before it’s too

    • Royce E. Van Blaricome

      Again, Dennis, be careful. There are true Believers that are following Christ and still struggle with SSA. Praise God that you have been delivered from those evil desires but please do not undermine your Brothers & Sisters who still struggle.

      “Once you have had a real encounter with the real living God you will no longer desire the sin and sexual pleasures of this world.”

      That is absolutely FALSE!! Paul says so! Have you read Romans? How long ago were you Born Again? Are you in a church? What are they teaching you? I can tell you that I’m a healthy Heterosexual Man who was divorced 6yrs ago and while I’ve be celibate that whole time, I can’t say there haven’t been a few times over the years where temptation has reared it’s ugly head.

      PLEASE STOP with the ungodly advice that is absolutely contrary to the Word of God!!

      • TwoRutRoad

        Even bible thumpers can’t agree on what the messages in the bible mean or who knows God better.

        • Royce E. Van Blaricome

          How do you define “bible thumper”?

          Are there varying understandings on various passages of Scripture? Sure. Are there different POV on various doctrines in areas such as Eschatology or such? Sure.

          However, on the Essentials of the Christian faith there is not. All those who vary from the Essentials are cults and apostates. And they have been with us since Christ was resurrected. Probably even while He walked the Earth though I can’t think of a specific right now. Except maybe for the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes if’n ya wanna count them.

          But ya know what? That’s not really all that important for you. What is important for you, right now, right this very second if you are reading this is what have YOU done with Jesus Christ?

          Have you surrendered as a slave to the Lord Jesus Christ for Him to be your new Lord & Master instead of yourself and Sin? THAT is what will matter for ALL Eternity. Not whether everyone else is in total agreement on everything the Bible says but whether you surrender to Christ!! Will you be a creation made in the image of God or will you create a god in your image?

          For the one, you will forever be with God and experience Life and Life to the fullest. For the other, you will forever be in eternal torment and suffer the second death for all Eternity.

          THAT is what you must decide and THAT is something you should not tarry on for you do not know when you will breath your last and meet God. Either as Savior or Judge.

          But you WILL meet Him.

          • TwoRutRoad

            Slave? Who in their right mind wants to be a slave?!

            I don’t want to go anywhere for eternity. Even heaven would grow tiring after the first 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years, especially if I have to spend it on my knees worshiping someone who sent my friends and family to hell.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Those in their right mind. That’s who.

            Doesn’t matter one iota whether you want to go anywhere for Eternity. Not one bit. That truth is you will. It’s only a matter of where.

            No, Heaven will NEVER be boring. Being with God and all He is will keep that from happening.

            But I do appreciate you showing the god-complex now. Just like I said. You are your own god. One day you will find out that God does NOT answer to you though and He is the Almighty.

            If God sent your friends and family to Hell it’s because they deserved it, got justice for their sins, and rejected Christ just as you have so that they, like you, will pay for your sins yourself.

            And btw, don’t make the mistake of thinking you’re gonna have a party with your friends and family in Hell. You won’t. You may not ever even get to see them again. Whereas, we who are Believers, will spend Eternity in Heaven with our loved ones who did surrender to Christ.

          • Jason Todd

            No. Your friends made that choice. I believe it is 2 Peter 3:9 that says in fact God doesn’t want anyone to go to hell. Salvation and damnation are a matter of personal choice. It’s why God gave us free will.

          • Celephais

            Jesus said that whoever practices sin is a slave to sin (John 8:34); and those who are unsaved not only practice sin, but in many cases approve of it, so welcome to slavery. OTOH, those who are in Christ are no longer slaves but adopted children and heirs with Him of all things.

            You will go one of two places for eternity, whether you want to or not. Your only choice is being with God, where there is unending joy, growth, ecstasy, love, creativity, and friendship, or Hell, where there are none of these blessings, but torment, rage, and hatred of self and others forever. I invite you to believe in Christ, who paid the price for your sins, removing the guilt of those who accept Him and replacing it with His righteousness. Now is the day of salvation; take it and be glad. I did, and I am.

        • Amos Moses

          Just more epithet …………

      • Richard T.

        The question is how Christians overcome the old flesh and not fell into temptation. The key is to stay close to the Cross, to be continuely connected to Christ. The Bible says we need to obey God and resist the devil. Flee from temptations. Crucify our old flesh. But all these would be impossible to do without the help of the Holy Spirit. That’s why we need to have a continued encounter with the Lord, living in His presence, to continue our walk in the Lord. And when we desire the Lord fully with our hearts, the desire for sin and the world will vanish away.

        Yes, we will never be free of sin or the danger or falling on earth, but we can grow stronger and stronger spiritually and we can be set free from the besetting sins in our lives. It is not just possible, but it should be normal for Christians to live a holy life that is pleasing to God here on earth.

        • Royce E. Van Blaricome

          Well said. That’s basically Romans 8. Walk in the Spirit and not by the Flesh.

        • Laurence Charles Ringo

          Here,here Richard T.! PREACH IT!!!😄. You know what I found out years ago, taught by the Holy Spirit? Romans chapter 6 is the key; I call it the “sin-breaking” chapter of Holy Writ. Read it,meditate upon it prayerfully,and ask the Blessed Holy Spirit to reveal the power inherent in this chapter.The issue is not to attempt being sinless; that won’t occur until we are glorified in our new bodies per 1st Corinthians 15th chapter.No; the point the great Apostle Paul is driving home here is that sin should not and will not rule over and dominate our lives as it formerly did—in Christ we can and should be walking free of sin’s insidious influence; as you said in your post, holiness should be the norm,and in Christ,if you are In Him, it must be,period. God bless you,Brother Richard,and keep living and preaching God’s Truth,not man’s speculations and opinions—PRAISE HIM!!!😁😁😁.

      • Jim Tully

        What was the reason you got divorced?

        • Royce E. Van Blaricome

          What business is that of yours? Why do you ask? What has that got to do with my comment and the point I made about remaining celibate as God has commanded?

          • Jim Tully

            You seem to have all the answers. But I guess you don’t.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            I have no idea what that was supposed to mean? Just a fiery dart because you want to harass me? You didn’t answer my questions so I guess your questions weren’t sincere and/or with any purpose to begin with.

            If this last comment was a continuation of your former one, I can assure you that your guess would be dead wrong. I know the answer to the question full well.

          • Jim Tully

            It means you don’t have all the answers so quit pretending you do and Advising people how to live their lives

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Your god-complex and faux omniscience is failing you. I never said I had all the answers nor have I ever pretended to.

            Is that the best you can do to harass me? Make false accusations and hurl fiery darts?

            As for advising people on how to live their lives I’d say two things. First, practice what you preach. Second, I’m not advising anyone. I’ve simply repeated what God has said.

            “Wise men speak because they have something to say, fools speak because they have to say something” – Plato

          • Jim Tully

            You did everything right by God. Your marriage still failed. You failed. Pray on that.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Again, your god-complex and phony omniscience fails you. I did not do everything right by God. However, that is not why the Marriage failed.

            But I thank you for the blessing. Got anymore little fiery darts ya wanna hurl at me, Satan?

            Oh btw, I did pray about those things and I continue to pray. In fact, I’ll say a prayer for you.

            Lord Jesus, it’s obvious that Jim here is dead in his trespasses and sins, in which he walks according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. And lives in the lusts of his flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and is by nature a child of wrath.

            So open his eyes Lord. Give him clarity and another chance to surrender as a slave to the Lord Jesus Christ and be free from all of that. Help him see his need for you, Lord. Help him to see how AWESOME you are and how much you love Him. Help him to see the road he is on that leads to death and help him to see the span of Eternity and the torment that awaits him and all those who set themselves up as their own god and reject You.

            In Jesus name I pray. Amen

      • Paramananda Devasahayam

        What is false? that depends on your commitment with Jesus and the word of God in prayer mind you. Do not judge others are also like you struggling with temptation. that means your commitment with Jesus is just shallow. If you lead a spirit full life in Christ devil knows he can do nothing with you so he will run away and he knows very well you are armed with the sword word of God and with the whole Armour of God, you stand everyday We wrestle not against flesh and blood we need to fight much a greater genuine fight against satans principalities, powers and his rulers of the darkness and against spiritual wickedness in High places God has entrusted such a great fight in your hands not just with flesh and blood and its lust. Grow in Christ and in his power

        • Royce E. Van Blaricome

          I have no clue what you’re trying to say or the point you’re trying to make but some of it is just flatout Biblically false.

          The “do not judge others” – FALSE. See John 7:24 and know that is a COMMAND. Not a suggestion.

          “like you struggling with temptation. that means your commitment with Jesus is just shallow.” – FALSE. The Book of Job tells us differently. So does Paul in Romans 7. And there are other Scriptures. In fact, the very Scriptures you allude to say just the opposite!! God does not say to put on the full armor of God so that the Devil will run away because he knows you are very well armed!! Just the opposite. God says to put it on SO THAT YOU MAY RESIST!!

          Grow in the knowledge and truth of His Word AND THEN you will be growing in Christ (Rom. 12:1-2) and His power.

    • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

      Praise God.

    • Charmayne

      Amen, Dennis! “Once you have a REAL encounter with the REAL living God you will no longer desire sin and sexual pleasures of this world.” #PREACH💯

      • TwoRutRoad

        Prostate cancer can have the same effect.

        • Chet

          But prostate cancer won’t send a never dying soul to Hell…

          • TwoRutRoad

            That’s why I’d rather have prostate cancer.

      • Royce E. Van Blaricome

        I’m not sure what “God” you are referring to but that is NOT what the God of the Bible says. Quite to the contrary.

        • Jason Todd

          What does He say then?

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Well, there’s two parts to that answer. First, God says a Born Again Christian is a new creation and delivered from the “power” of sin – not from sin itself. Paul makes this abundantly clear in Romans 6-8. I’d suggest reading those. Elsewhere we are told to resist and flee from temptations. I could go on but that should suffice.

            Secondly, NOWHERE does God ever say that a Christian will no longer desire the sexual pleasures of this world. Quite to the contrary. THIS is why God says it is better to marry than to burn. Sex is the ONLY thing that a Marriage offers that cannot be found in any other relationship and it is a part of this world. It won’t be a part of Heaven.

          • Paramananda Devasahayam

            certainly not a gay marriage or lesbian marriage . Lust must be gotten rid off. otherwise one cannot live a holy life pleasing unto God I Peter 1:16. II John verse 9. Romans 1:32 (Read from verse 25 through 31) James 4:3&4 > All the apostles have reiterated the holiness No double standard with God . God is also knows as consuming fire who abhors evil practices like homo and lesbian sex .Can you not give up such evil pleasure for your savior who gave himself for you that too for your own reward James 1:12- 14 what makes you stand for and support for such temptations. Resist the evil that is what Bible teaches.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            I’m confused. Are you asking me those questions? Or did you mean those questions for Jason? If for me, I think you need to read my comments again.

            I don’t disagree with anything you said.

    • http://www.gmail.com/ David van Heerden

      Some say homosexual perversion is evidence of being rejected by God, and for such salvation by grace through faith in Christ is not possible: typically such men suppose that salvation is in some part by their works of the law (turning from evil, making solemn oaths, etc). Your claim about your private life somewhat resembles the worthless doctrine of “sinless perfection”. I’d like to be wrong.

      • Royce E. Van Blaricome

        Good comment. Some do say that. And in SOME cases they MAY be correct. There are SOME folks in the LGBTQABCXYZ Community that give all reason to believe they have been turned over to a reprobate mind having rejected Christ too many times and God having removed His longsuffering patience, mercy, and grace from them.

        But there are far too many others like Matt Moore, Rosaria Butterfield, Christopher Yuen, Jackie Hill-Perry, Sam Allberry, Joe Dallas, etc. who through God’s grace and power are living godly lives and resisting the evil of their previous behaviors.

        As to Dennis’ claim, he hasn’t said how long it’s been since he was Born Again or what has transpired since then. So I’m hoping that it is just misplaced zeal for the Lord in how he’s been delivered coupled with a severe lack of what the Bible has to say and a dereliction on somebody’s part to properly disciple him.

    • Jim Tully

      A practicing homosexual? Just practice? Never got good enough at it to go pro, huh?

      • TwoRutRoad

        He might want to rephrase that first sentence. It’s a little misleading at the end.

        • Jim Tully

          It sounds like too mistakes in the end was his problem.

      • Chris

        “Just practice? Never got good enough at it to go pro, huh?”

        Now that was good.

        • Jim Tully

          I think he’s just a quitter.

    • Charles

      (Mat 19:26) But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

    • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

      Just wanted to say Hallelujah for your testimony

    • Paramananda Devasahayam

      DCC wants unity with Satan not with Jesus for Him it is abominable/ Well Christ has always an open hands to accept the homo sexuals and lgbt s if they repent and decide to correct themselves of their misbehavior in sex . Marital sex is pure but other sexual behavior are all lust as per the word of God . living together and sex before marriage and sex with same gender and with animals are all abominable unto God

  • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

    So, they still do not agree with homosexual behavior, but “felt called to transcend our viewpoints and seek unity.” In other words, they still realize & know it’s wrong however they ‘FELT’ it was politically correct to transcend those views & seek the greater good & unite everyone. So God we don’t give a flying flip what You say about it. We FEEL this is what we need to do.

    • Royce E. Van Blaricome

      You hit on a VERY important point that needs to be emphasized. In all these churches we see going apostate it is important to note that their apostasy is rooted in their “feelings”. It has always come down, and I honestly can’t think of an exception for I am careful about saying “always”, to how one “feels”.

      Nevermind what God has plainly said. They filter God’s Word thru their feelings rather than filtering their feelings thru God’s Word.

      THAT is how they then redefine “Love”, “Unity”, and even God Himself.

      • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

        Amen Royce. Even those deep in His Word & growing daily & seeking Him still have to battle feelings & emotions trying not to walk in those. Walking by faith & not by sight also entails walking by faith & not by emotions. You have people who get deep in depression & can’t seem to overcome in the moment. It’s in those times that their faith has to break through to help them realize, it’s not about these feelings but regardless of how I feel, I KNOW He is there. I KNOW I’m not alone. I KNOW He’s my shelter & fortress. We’re always battling the flesh. I’ve also seen where believers have those high times as well. They go to service & have that good shouting time & just felt His presence like none other. The next day they wake up & BAM, it’s Monday. Back to life. That’s another important time to remember it’s not about those emotions. We can’t live on those high times. I enjoy those high times & crying times with my fellow brothers & sisters in the Lord but I know it’s for only a moment.

        • Royce E. Van Blaricome

          Again, VERY well said!!

        • Faithwalker

          Amen…Tammy!

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    These apostates cause religious persecutions against the Christians in the Western world. White people need Judeo-Christian values to be moral.

  • Reason2012

    Members of the elder team of Denver Community Church (DCC) announced this week that following a two-year discussion period, and out of a desire to “seek unity,” they have decided to allow those who admit they are in open rebellion against God and refuse to repent and stop sinning to have full inclusion, permitting them to serve “in any and all levels of leadership.”

    Fixed it. This just let’s born again believers in God know this is another church that’s being led by satan, not God.

  • Reason2012

    Matthew 7:20-28 “[Jesus said] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
    Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
    And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”

    Get those “leaders” removed, or get out of that church if you’re a born again believer in God.

  • Joshua 1:9

    See people? THIS is what happens when Christians REFUSE to STUDY THE BIBLE and REFUSE to HAVE A CLOSE RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS! If YOU do not have a TRUE relationship with Jesus then it is only YOU who are to blame for that. Come Judgement Day, God will ONLY blame YOU. Not any other person. Not enough time in your schedule? Your schedule is seriously flawed and self-centered. Not sure how to go about it? It tells you how if you study God’s Word, or ask other Christians. No Excuses! If you REFUSE then you take the chance of becoming like this group of Apostates. Not worthy to even mention the Lord’s Name, let alone be part of a fake church. And yes, fake church. Any “church” who REFUSES to have God at the center is not even close to being a REAL church. Get close to Jesus, and He will get close to you.

  • eagleflyfree

    Homosexuality is an abomination to our Heavenly Father.

    • TwoRutRoad

      Then why would he create them?

      • eagleflyfree

        He didn’t create them that way. He does not contradict Himself. Romans 1:26-27, I Corinthians 6:9

        • Chris

          But maybe the fundie way of interpreting the bible leads to contradictions. Maybe, just maybe, you should give up such an interpretation.

      • Amos Moses

        He did not ….. they chose to sin against Him ………

      • NCOriolesFan

        God created male and female, not them.

        • Chris

          So homosexuals are uncreated? Or did they create themselves? I think you should re-examine your theology.

          • NCOriolesFan

            Gays are the creation of their deviant brain malfunctions.

          • TwoRutRoad

            You mean their “God given” brains malfunction? Seems like a lousy design.

          • Chris

            Really? So since every single species on the planet has some members who are homosexual then this ‘malfunction’ must be pretty common. Since you know it’s a malfunction tell me which hemisphere of the brain it’s in? Which part of that hemisphere? Or were you merely saying the equivalent of ‘gays are icky’?

          • Chris

            Oh. You do realise that if homosexuality were a ‘brain malfunction’ then it can’t be a sin, don’t you? I believe that’s called hoist by your own petard.

          • Jason Todd

            Actually it’s more the result of environment and abuse.

            Haven’t you noticed homosexuality is being openly taught to children now?

          • NCOriolesFan

            Yup, especially in the courts regarding custody cases.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            No, I haven’t noticed that. Because it isn’t.

      • Royce E. Van Blaricome

        He didn’t. Why would you think He has? Do you believe God is real?

        • TwoRutRoad

          You know i don’t believe he’s real, but I pose the question for those who do. If he’s omniscient, then he had to know what his creations would do to displease him.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Oh, you do know He’s real for it has been plainly known to you.

            18 For the wrath of God IS REVEALED from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which IS KNOWN about God IS EVIDENT within them; for God MADE IT EVIDENT to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been CLEARLY SEEN, being understood through what has been made, so that they are WITHOUT EXCUSE 21 For even though they KNEW God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools (Rom. 1:18-22)

            The evidence for God is all around you. Just go back to being honest – you prefer to be your own God and live according to your own will and ways.

            That said, sure God knew that His creation would displease Him. At least especially after the Fall. So what? That is exactly why He sent Jesus to die for you.

          • Jason Todd

            And? What’s your point?

          • TwoRutRoad

            My point is that he created MANY people who he knew would end up in hell, which seems like a strange thing for a loving, all-knowing god to do.

      • Jason Todd

        He didn’t. That’s a lie right out of the pits of hell.

    • Charmayne

      Amen and Amen!

  • Steve

    Professing themselves wise they became fools.

  • Richard T.

    What has light to do with darkness? What has Christ to do with Belial? Another “church” that is now denied the Lord that has redeemed and purchased them! I am not sure what kind of “love” and “presence of God” would they feel in that church. Surely it is not the presence of the true God who is holy.

  • NCOriolesFan

    Did the church membership agree to this ‘idea’ or did the leadership make the decision themselves?

  • Emmanuel

    God has left the building like he promised.

  • Sharon Billington

    This is capitulation to the world around us and not yielding to how God wants us all to live and love. God wants us to be in the world and not of it. These people are in the world, period, and sadly, they deceive themselves. Doesn’t what matters to God matter to them? Scripture is plain on the subject of sexual perversion and the qualities needed by spiritual leaders.

  • Amos Moses

    the SBC has just seemed to go way off the rails in recent months ……. sad …. very sad …….

  • Charles

    >>>>They note that following the process, although leadership still held to a disagreement with homosexual behavior, they “felt called to transcend our viewpoints and seek unity.”

    The infiltration of American Churches is close to completion. Exchanging the truth for a lie. All in the name of unity.

  • Webb ™

    “God is angry with the wicked every day.” — Psalm 7:11

    “The wicked freely strut about, when what is vile is honored among
    men.” Psalm 12:8

  • Robert

    They studied scripture but didn’t follow it. JESUS PRAYED FOR UNITY NOT COMPROMISE. It’s obvious they compromised the bibles truths for the sake of unity… And then there is Romans 16:17 or is it Romans 17:16. Isn’t it great to get old.
    .

  • Rev Donald Spitz

    Homosexuality should be criminalized. Homosexuality is a crime against God and against the Holy Bible. After reading this story I know why God wrote:
    Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
    Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: :26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: :27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

  • Steven

    Sounds like they’ve built their church on a different foundation. Oh! Nice triquetra symbol you have there.

  • Murray Elliott

    To TwoRutRoad. Congratulations. With over 320 posts, you have managed to attract one follower. So my question to you is what are you trying to accomplish by being so prolific yet so ineffectual in your arguments. Here’s a thought… Maybe you aren’t about trying to honestly engage with
    people who differ on your views (or lack of views). Just maybe you are trying to bait Christians into wasting time answering your multitude of posts. Well congratulations. You have succeeded very well. Too bad many people responding to your posts don’t realize they are been played. Hopefully they will eventually catch on and start ignoring you and get into more discussions with people who have some real interest in debating an issue. To Christians who are on this site, when is enough, enough? Matthew 7:6. “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine,
    lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces. Just a thought …

    • TwoRutRoad

      I’m not hoping for followers. In fact, I didn’t even know I had one. I agree…I’m an amateur. Gotta start somewhere, and this IS a public forum.

      Perhaps you think I’m a little too antagonistic. Well, I’ve got news for you: Being told I’m going to burn in hell is a lot more antagonistic than anything I’ve EVER said to ANYBODY. As a side note to that, I think that scaring children with threats of hell for them or their loved ones is child abuse and it needs to stop. I know it sure scared ME when I was young. I’m glad to have realized that there is absolutely zero evidence to show that it’s real.

      My posts are not ineffectual. I got YOUR attention, didn’t I? Why are you so threatened by my posts that you feel you need to pick me out of the rest and call for a boycott against me? If you want to beat me over the head with your bible, don’t get mad at me when I take it away from you and beat YOU over the head with it, too!

      There are probably some people here who are a little on the fence about religion. My real hope is that I’ll help people to use their brain, question everything, and think for themselves.

  • Murray Elliott

    Wow… TwoRutRoad is an amateur compared to Jim Tully. 1,078 posts and counting with numerous comments deleted by the moderators. Talk about applying Matthew 7:6. A no
    brainer there …

  • Reason2012

    Correction:

    “Members of the elder team of Denver Community Church (DCC) announced this week that following a two-year discussion period, and out of a desire to “seek unity,” they have decided to allow those who admit they are in open rebellion to God and refuse to repent to have full inclusion, permitting them to serve “in any and all levels of leadership.”

    And this simply shows others this ‘church’ is being lead by_satan, not God, and born again believers in God will leave it and get into a church that actually follows God and obeys what He has made quite clear.

  • Reason2012

    Adults continue to permanently turn away from homosexuality, even after decades of believing the lie they were “born that way”, proving it’s not genetic, but the product of indoctrination, confusion, mental instability and/or abuse.

    Homosexual behavior is most literally pointed out as a sin, and God has not changed on that regard. But if a person has those inclinations but does not act upon them, does not dwell in lust upon others, but is instead struggling against them to avoid them, then it’s not a sin. It’s just like sinful inclinations of any kind: it’s acting upon it when it becomes a sin.

    And this is what God says about sin and specifically the behavior of homosexuality:

    Romans 1:26-27 ”For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: (27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their_lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.”

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 ”Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [men who willingly take on the part of a “woman” with another man], nor abusers of themselves with mankind [s odomites], (10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

    1 Timothy 1:9-10 ”Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, (10) For_whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind [s odomites], for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”

    Jude 1:7 ”Even as_Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

    Luke 17:29 ”[Jesus said] But the same day that Lot went out of_Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.”

    Matthew 19:4-6 ”And he [Jesus] answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, (5) And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? (6) Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.”

    Jesus made it quite clear God made us male and female so that a man will leave his father and mother (not two fathers, not three mothers and so on) and cleave onto his wife (not his husband and so on).

    The Word of God rebukes us all – even if we all try to say we don’t believe the Bible, the very Word of God will be our judge when we face Him. And God is a righteous judge and will judge us all – not turn a blind eye to our sin. Do not be deceived by the world: it’s God we will have to convince that His word was a lie, not men. What happened in Noah’s day when the entire world rejected God? Did God spare them because there were so many? No – they all perished except for Noah and his family!

    Proverbs 9:10 ”The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.”

    God spared not His chosen people – we are kidding ourselves if we think He will spare the United States of America if we choose to blatantly turn away from Him.

    Jeremiah 12:17 ”But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, saith the LORD.”

    Luke 17:28-30 “So also as it was in the days of Lot: they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; (29) but the day Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from the heaven and destroyed them all. (30) Even so it shall be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.”

    Romans 1:18-32 “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [suppress] the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

    For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

    For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, m urder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”

    The entire Bible points out men having_sex with men is an abomination. Likewise woman having_sex with women. It’s not just Paul that pointed it out.

    Genesis 19:4-13 “But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of S odom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them [men wanting to have_sex with men].

    And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing [he offers his daughters to be_raped to keep them from having_sex with another man – shows_rape is not the issue but male on male_sex]; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

    And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door. But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door. And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

    And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place: For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.”

    These two messengers were sent to destroy that place before the event where they tried to_rape these messengers.

    Leviticus 18:22 “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.”

    Leviticus 20:13 “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination …”

    Even cross-dressing is an abomination:

    Deuteronomy 22:5 “The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.”

    Deuteronomy 23:17 “There shall be no_whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a s odomite of the sons of Israel.”

    1 Kings 22:46 “And the remnant of the s odomites, which remained in the days of his father Asa, he took out of the land.”

    1 Kings 15:11-12 “And Asa did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, as did David his father. And he took away the s odomites out of the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made.”

    2 Kings 23:7 “And he brake down the houses of the s odomites, that were by the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the grove.”

    Ezekiel 16:49-50 “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister S odom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.”

    And the “pride” parades about homosexuality are more of the same.

    Matthew 19:4-5 “And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?”

    Not father and father. Not mother and mother. Not his husband.

    And only two people of opposite gender can become “one flesh”.

    Live forever, people – not temporarily only to be cast out for living for the things of this world.

    May God/Jesus Christ be glorified!