Woman Who Identifies as Man Sues Catholic Hospital for Disallowing Uterus Removal at Facility

SAN FRANCISCO, Calif. — A California woman who identifies as a man has filed a lawsuit against a Catholic hospital and its parent company for prohibiting her surgeon from performing a sex change-related hysterectomy at the facility because of the organization’s religious convictions.

The 35-year-old woman, who goes by the name Evan Minton, had been scheduled to undergo a complete hysterectomy at Mercy San Juan Medical Center in Carmichael last August. She believed the procedure was necessary to comport with her preferred identity.

However, the day before her appointment, after she noted to a nurse that she identifies as “transgender,” the surgery was canceled.

“In general, it is our practice not to provide sterilization services at Dignity Health’s Catholic facilities,” said spokeswoman Melissa Jue in a statement at the time.

Mercy San Juan President Brian Ivie informed Minton’s surgeon, Lindsey Dawson—who regularly performs hysterectomies at the facility—that perhaps she could instead obtain admitting privileges at nearby Methodist Hospital, which is still a part of the network, but non-Catholic.

Dawson was able to perform the operation at Methodist Hospital within a week, but because Mercy San Juan and Dignity Health would not permit the surgery at the Catholic hospital, Minton filed suit, alleging discrimination.

“I don’t blame the staff,” said Dawson. “I don’t blame the administrators. I blame the [Roman Catholic] doctrines.”

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The ACLU asserts in its lawsuit that the denial is a violation of the state’s Unruh Act, which prohibits business establishments from discriminating against patrons on the basis of one’s gender. It is seeking a court order that would force the hospital to allow the procedures in the future.

“The refusal of Dignity Health to allow a doctor to perform this common procedure simply because the patient is transgender is discriminatory,” Elizabeth Gill, a senior staff attorney at the ACLU of Northern California, said in a statement. “This is a hospital that is open to the general public so it’s illegal for them to turn away someone based on gender identity.”

Mercy Health has reiterated its position, but says that it was “happy” to help Minton obtain the operation at one of its non-Catholic facilities.

“We do not provide elective sterilizations at Dignity Health’s Catholic facilities in accordance with the Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services (ERDs) and the medical staff bylaws,” it said. “We understand how important this surgery is for transgender individuals, and were happy to provide Mr. Minton and his surgeon the use of another Dignity Health hospital for his surgery within a few days.”

Minton has also obtained a mastectomy and a phalloplasty.

As previously reported, last summer, the Obama administration released guidelines prohibiting sex discrimination in federally-funded hospitals under the threat of losing funding. The rules pertain to language in the Affordable Care Act (ACA), otherwise known as Obamacare, and affects all hospitals that accept Medicare or Medicaid, as well as those directly funded by the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS). (Read in full here.)

HHS asserted at the time of issuance that the rules build upon the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Education Amendments of 1972, which the Obama administration interpreted as applying to “gender identity.”

“[A] covered entity may not deny, based on an individual’s identification as a transgender male, treatment for ovarian cancer where the treatment is medically indicated” and if “an issuer or state Medicaid agency denies a claim for coverage for a hysterectomy that a patient’s provider says is medically necessary to treat gender dysphoria,” the case will be investigated, it outlined.

Five states, as well as the Christian Medical and Dental Association and the Roman Catholic Franciscan Alliance, quickly filed suit out of their belief that the government was wrongly forcing them to perform sex change-related procedures violative of the tenets of their faith.

Judge Reed O’Connor sided with the plaintiffs in the case, citing the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA) and concluding that “[p]laintiffs will be forced to either violate their religious beliefs or maintain their current policies which seem to be in direct conflict with the rule and risk the severe consequences of enforcement.”


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  • BuckeyePhysicist

    One cannot obtain such immoral acts at a Catholic hospital!

    • Chris

      Of course you can. You’re talking like Catholic institutions have never done anything questionable.

      • BuckeyePhysicist

        We’ll operate on anyone — if their life is in danger. What we won’t do is the Bruce to Caitlin procedure.

        • Chris

          So you pick and choose which operations you’ll perform. I didn’t know that was one of the rights of a doctor.

          • Amos Moses

            false paradigm and a strawman …….

          • Sharon_at_home

            Where do their conscience end and the rights of other people, in this case the faithful, begin?

          • Chris

            I’d suggest it’s when what someone is requesting is part of a person’s job.

          • Amos Moses

            body mutilation is not “part of their job” …………..

        • Robert

          Yea ! Well me and Chris are going to call it the back porch Switcharoo on you procedure

      • Robert

        Me in Chris will even put a new trans axle on a transsexual just for the price of the trans axel and they will be up and running in no time to.

        • Chris

          What are you talking about?

    • Robert

      That’s why me and Chris are going to do on the back porch at my place and for half the cost to.

  • InTheChurch

    Catholic hospital, give him a huge amount of money and move on.

  • sammy13

    What is it with these people? Must every confrontation end in a lawsuit?

    • Nidalap

      When the goal is to push a political agenda, yes…

      • Chris

        And what political agenda is this? Can you provide evidence [not an argument but actual evidence for it]. And how is it that every right wing fundie seems aware of this agenda but no one else is?

  • Reason2012

    A hospital is not a place you go for what amounts to plastic surgery because you have issues with your self-image.
    Meanwhile you can now see the end-goal of not only pushing homosexual behavior as normal, but now transgender as well: use it as a legal sledgehammer to attack belief in God one lawsuit at a time.

    • Ambulance Chaser

      If someone were scarred in a fire but otherwise healthy would you oppose reconstructive surgery for them?

      • Amos Moses

        mutilating a health body goes against the Hippocratic oath ….. “first, do no harm” ….. this not the same as reconstructive surgery or even elective plastic surgery ………. if a person comes to the hospital and asks that an otherwise healthy leg or arm be removed ….. because the person “identified” as an amputee ………. they should be denied ………

        • Sisyphus

          Given the available details in the article, I can’t imagine an insurance company finding any medical necessity for removing a uterus but if the patient is BRCA-1 positive that’s a different story. Although, WTF do I know?

        • Ambulance Chaser

          Right, except that gender reassignment surgery is not mutilation.

          • Mr Cleats

            In your case, there wouldn’t even be anything to remove. You’re such an old woman anyway. Elderly homosexuals are sexless and disgusting.

          • Amos Moses

            except …. ummmmm …. yes it is …. cutting off body parts or pinning ones where they do not belong ….. is insanity …… no amount of surgery is going to alter the DNA or gender of anybody …… to believe so is to REJECT science ………. and common sense ……….

          • Ambulance Chaser

            OK, so where is all of this science you keep talking about, that shows that trans people can or should simply stop being trans?

          • Amos Moses

            the science of genetics says what they are ……. they suffer from BDD …. Body Dysmorphic Disorder ………. they cannot align what the mirror says they are and what they are …. it is a reality disconnect ….. and again …. surgery does not fix that ….. they will suffer from a 40%+ suicide rate ….. and surgery does not alter that ONE IOTA …….

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Right, fine, I’ve heard your assertions. Now show me some evidence to back them up. Because I have plenty of evidence to the contrary, but you’ll just reject it as “biased.”

          • Amos Moses

            no …. i reject it mostly because it is false science …….. and i do not accept lies ……..

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Right, so, for the third time, show me the REALscience.

          • Amos Moses

            the real science is something you say you reject …… GOD created men and women ….. nothing there about a “third” sex or anything else …… and anything outside that is mans own desire to not conform to Gods creation ……… which you do not ….. scripture is the standard that science is measured by ….. just as you use a ruler to determine what an inch is in carpentry …. there is a standard to measure science ….. and when you reject God as part of science you get the same result the carpenter gets when he does not use a standard to build … you get a lop-sided structure can does not bear up under scrutiny ….. you get lies ……… and if you choose to accept anything a “scientist” says as science …… then your results will be similar ………..

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Okay so you don’t have any. Thanks for clearing that up.

          • Amos Moses

            i have plenty ….. you reject true science and the truth ……….. YOU are the one with NOTHING …………..

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Please present it, Amos. I would very much like to see it.

          • Amos Moses

            it is called scripture …. and you reject it also ………

          • Jenny Ondioline

            You weren’t called on to present scripture, you were called on to present science.

          • Amos Moses

            the SCRIPTURES are the ruler that science is measured by ……….. so FAIL ……..

          • Jenny Ondioline

            No they aren’t. Science is in no sense based on the scriptures, and that is not what is being discussed here.

          • Amos Moses

            you do not promote science … you promote SCIENTISM …… and it is what you worship ….. it is idolatry ……………..

          • Amos Moses

            “Science is in no sense based on the scriptures”

            ummmmm ….. ahhhh ….. YES IT IS …………… and science is measured by the scriptures …… otherwise it is just SCIENTISM ….. and another false religion ………..

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Look Amos, when the Bible tells you that light was created on the first day but the sun didn’t come along until day 4, don’t pretend your holy book is a science text, and I am very happy to give you a great big FAIL in conclusion.

          • Amos Moses

            that you do not understand scripture is your problem …. not mine … nor scripture ……. that you do not know what that light is referring to is your problem ………. FAIL ………….

          • Jenny Ondioline

            You want more examples? Bats are not birds. The earth is not flat. Snakes and donkeys do not talk.

            This is emphatically NOT a book of science.

          • Amos Moses

            “Bats are not birds. The earth is not flat.”

            the bible has no place where it says any of those things ………

            “Snakes and donkeys do not talk”

            there was a donkey that did talk …… but not on any regular basis ….. but God is omnipotent ……. and what snake would that be …..

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Bats as birds – Leviticus

            “11:13 And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls ; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
            11:14 And the vulture, and the kite after his kind;
            11:15 Every raven after his kind;
            11:16 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
            11:17 And the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl,11:18 And the swan, and the pelican, and the gier eagle,
            11:19 And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.”

            Flat earth – Isaiah
            11:12 God will gather up the people of Judea “from the four corners of the earth.” In the Bible’s view, the earth is flat with four corners.

            The serpent spoke to Eve in Genesis 3.

            You need to learn your own book a little better, Amos.

          • Amos Moses

            “The serpent spoke to Eve in Genesis 3.”

            that was satan …. he was not a snake ….. a person can be referred to as a serpent or a snake and not be literal and still be true …. and it was a serpent, not a snake ……. and again …. you read with no understanding ………..

            “11:12 God will gather up the people of Judea “from the four corners of the earth.” ”

            and those “four corners” would be the North, South, East and West …. and so very accurate …. and scientific …. and STILL USED to this day ……… and scripture also says …

            103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

            how far is that …. because if the “flat earth” idea was even close to being true which the bible does not state …. then you could only travel so far east or west ….. but as it is you can travel until the end of time going in either of those directions and NEVER go the other direction and the ONLY way for that to occur is a SPHERE …….. and that is SCIENTIFICALLY and biblically ACCURATE ……………

            “Isaiah
            11:12 God will gather up the people of Judea “from the four corners of the earth.” In the Bible’s view, the earth is flat with four corners.”
            and it ALSO says ……….
            Isaiah
            40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

            what corners are there in a circle ………… it says the earth is round ……..

          • Jenny Ondioline

            A snake has no vocal cords. It cannot speak. Not even in the Bible.

          • Amos Moses

            satan had vocal chords ………… still does ……….

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Well, he’d have as much luck getting a voice to come out of a snake as he would a baseball glove.

          • Amos Moses

            satan was a musician …… he had numerous ways of making sounds ….. it was part of his being ……. he was created that way …………… vocal chords were not a requirement …………..

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Magician?
            Now I know more than ever we are not discussing science.

          • Amos Moses

            MUSICIAN ……….

          • Jenny Ondioline

            That makes even LESS sense than “magician”.

          • Amos Moses

            no …. you make less sense as time goes by …… all your statements are self-refuting ……… you reject truth …………

          • Jenny Ondioline

            No Amos, I embrace truth. The problem is what you’re making out to be truth isn’t truth at all, it’s your faith. And your opinions.

          • Amos Moses

            “And your opinions.”

            THERE IT IS ….. AGAIN ……………… you HAVE NOTHING and you RETREAT to your fall back position …………

            Jenny O’s limit of responses ……. all turkeys ……….
            1. “That’s your opinion” or “Your disapproval is nothing but opinion”
            2. “We do not live in a Christian theocracy.”
            3. “Your intolerance does not seem to make the slightest bit of difference”
            4. “Stamping your feet and calling it a lie after …..”
            5. “Thats your interpretation”
            you are BORING …… you have NOTHING to contribute ….. BORING ……….. WAWOHP ……

            1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

          • Amos Moses

            Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

            Tabrets and pipes were his instruments …….

            תֹּף
            tôph
            tofe
            From H8608 contracted; a tambourine: – tabret, timbrel.

            נֶקֶב
            neqeb
            nek’-keb
            A bezel (for a gem): – pipe.

          • Amos Moses

            Leviticus 11 ….. the word used for fowl is ….

            עוֹף
            ‛ôph
            ofe
            From H5774; a bird (as covered with feathers, or rather as covering with wings), often collective: – bird, that flieth, flying, fowl.

            so COVERED WITH WINGS ………….. is a fowl …. and is accurate and true and it is SCIENTIFIC …. as BATS HAVE WINGS ………

          • Jenny Ondioline

            The Bible is not a science text, nor is it intended to be. When someone asks you to present scientific facts, please do so.

          • Amos Moses

            “The Bible is not a science text, nor is it intended to be.”

            well we agree on that ….. AND YET …. it is FILLED with science ………….

          • Amos Moses

            Science from scripture …………

            Mountains under the oceans ………. Jonah ……….
            2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

            Earth FLOATS in space ……… 3000 years ago ………..
            26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
            26:8 He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them.

            Modern asepsis …………. not discovered in modern science until the 1800’s ….. in Leviticus THOUSANDS of years ago ….. recorded in the bible ………… especially quarantine …. not used in MODERN science until the 1700’s ………..

            information about disease and life condition in the blood …. the basis of modern medicine ….. in Leviticus THOUSANDS of years ago …..
            17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

            Light waves and radio waves …… Job 38:35 ……… that is most of MODERN communication
            38:35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?

            first law of thermodynamics ……..The law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system is constant …… IN GENESIS ……… 2:1 ……….
            2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

            it even describes the dinosaurs ………. in Job ………..
            40:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
            40:16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
            40:17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
            40:18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.
            40:19 He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.
            40:20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.
            40:21 He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.
            40:22 The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.
            40:23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.
            40:24 He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares.

          • Amos Moses

            He was nicknamed “Pathfinder of the Seas” and “Father of Modern Oceanography and Naval Meteorology” and later, “Scientist of the Seas,” due to the publication of his extensive works in his books, especially The Physical Geography of the Sea (1855), the first extensive and comprehensive book on oceanography to be published. Maury made many important new contributions to charting winds and ocean currents, including ocean lanes for passing ships at sea.

            and this christian got the idea to do this monumental work from ….. THE BIBLE …. the PATHS OF THE SEAS ……..SCIENCE ……….. from scripture ….. want more ….

            8:8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.
            8:9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

          • Jenny Ondioline

            I still think you’re dodging. When people request scientific proof of you, they are not looking for the words of the Bible.

          • Amos Moses

            BUT THEY SHOULD BE …………. because that is the STANDARD OF MEASURE for if what they are saying is the truth ………. if you want to know if an inch is an inch ….. you dont conduct an experiment …… you dont just declare it from your reasoning ……………YOU GET A RULER ………….. scripture is the RULER ………..

          • Jenny Ondioline

            It isn’t the standard of measure. It’s a historical text which claims to be the truth but has not proven itself to be.

          • Amos Moses

            no claims involved …. just truth you do not accept ….. you reject the truth ………..

          • Jenny Ondioline

            I reject faith-based statements intended to override science.

          • Amos Moses

            then you reject the truth that science even exists …….. as you reject the creation that makes science possible …… and you are left with nothing …………

          • Jenny Ondioline

            You are the one rejecting science. You’re the one saying science requires your holy book. It does not.

          • Amos Moses

            No ……… my “holy Book” contains science ………. and when you reject God … the Creator of science …… You Reject the science in it ….. and you are left with NOTHING …..

            are the things that are invisible the things that make up ALL visible things …… this is what scripture declares ……… is that TRUTH ………. is that SCIENCE ………….

          • Amos Moses

            More SCIENCE and the bible ………. MODERN aseptic technique ……..

            The phenomenon of contagion seems to well known among the Jews since the giving of the Levitical law. The “Sanitary Code” is implied throughout the Bible, the Talmud, and other Jewish writings. The Jews held a very high standard of cleanliness throughout the Old and New Testament. It started under the leadership of Moses and was later held by subsequent priests and kings. The cleanliness standard seemed to have taken on an extreme by the time of the New Testament. Although the early Jews and some Gentiles had very high standards of sanitation, most probably did not understand why. There is a suggestion that a few understood that contagion was the cause of infectious diseases and rightly held to clean food, proper disposal of waste, and washing of hands. Without the sanitary code (ultimately given by the Creator), the Jews would have lived a shorter and more difficult life for centuries. However, if they obeyed to the Mosaic Law, victory was given over many contagious diseases (Exodus 15:26) thanks to an understanding by their Creator and Maker that germs cause disease.

            Quarentine for contagious diseases.
            Isolation for the leper.
            OT=Lev. 13; Num. 5:2-3

            Cleansing of the leper.
            OT=Lev. 14:1-32; Deut. 24:8

            Disinfecting of houses after contagious diseases.
            OT=Lev. 14:33,57

            Laws of cleanliness after elimination.
            OT=Deut. 23:13-14

            Unclean discharges from the body.
            OT=Lev.15:1-15; Num. 5:2-3

            Cleansing of the woman after childbirth.
            OT=Lev. 12:1-8
            NT=Luke 2:22

            Laws concerning woman during menstration.
            OT=Lev. 15:19-33

            SCIENCE from SCRIPTURE …………

          • Amos Moses

            1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
            1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
            1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
            1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
            1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

            1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
            1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
            1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
            1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
            1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

            “And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” …. the light was the spirit of God ……….. God entered into time to create the creation ……………

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Excellent illustration, thank you. This is clearly not a book of science.

          • Amos Moses

            it is a book of truth ….. but it is full of science ………. and all correct science ……

            so when the weatherman says the “sun rose at 6:00AM today” …….. is that science …………

          • Jenny Ondioline

            When someone asks you to present a scientific perspective and you present the Bible instead, you’re playing games and are not interested in serious debate.

  • Amos Moses

    So we have numerous “doctors” in Michigan being prosecuted FOR performing female genital mutilation at the behest of the parents ………… and a hospital in California being sued FOR NOT doing what amounts to female genital mutilation ……….. i am not going insane …… i am going sane ….. IN AN INSANE WORLD ………

    • Grace Kim Kwon

      The Western powerfuls are trying to enslave the Earthlings by forcing the homosexual falsehood. It’s villains’ familiar method to subdue the people. Those who bend God’s truth and a clear conscience submit to any evil.

  • Robert

    many if not most hospitals are owned by denominations This Sueing by such vile individuals who only care about their perverted agendas can force them to close .Than what will America do ?

    • Chris

      Why is he vile? Because you don’t approve? Then you must be vile because I don’t approve of your behaviour. Right?

      • Robert

        Chris You don’t approve of people that are men act like they are men or women and act like women . you only think people should act what they are not. ? I bet your more reasonable than that. He is vile because he wants to sue people to make them do what he wants them to do and those things are unnatural weirdo sicko stuff that violate their conscience

        • Chris

          I think people should behave like themselves. HE has a male brain. HE was born with it. He would therefore feel alienated even from HIS own body. No choice in the matter. That’s how HE’D feel 24/7.

          Then HE has the temerity to sue people because they refuse to do their job. Because it’s too dangerous? No! Because they don’t approve. No one is asking for their approval, only that they do their job!

          • Robert

            Not the hospital job to try to make peoples delusions come true Chris.

          • Chris

            “Not the hospital job to try to make peoples delusions come true Chris.”

            If they are so delusional then why are their brains like the gender they wish to be? Delusions do not physically alter the way the brain is organized.

            “Be they want to be a man or chipmunk alligator or a bowl of Italian spaghetti.”

            Once again they have a different gender’s brain within their skull. That has been shown by medical science. Now don’t you feel silly?

          • Robert

            OK you win I will operate on them. But just so we can all feel silly.. How about thursday. After my midmorning nap ?

          • Chris

            Could someone call the funny farm? Robert needs assistance. Now don’t worry. The gentlemen with the white coats are coming and soon you’ll have a lovely new jacket that laces up in the back.

          • Robert

            I got you back from now on Chris don’t worry you and me we three. know more about math and science than all those loosers put together.

          • Amos Moses

            “Delusions do not physically alter the way the brain is organized.”

            ummmm …. ahhhh …. YES …. IT DOES ….. people who view PORN and have had CT scans have shown marked differences to those who do not view it ….. it literally changes the brains structure ………… their DELUSION is that what they are viewing is an actual real thing ….. the brain cannot tell the difference between the image and the corporeal ……… and it shows up in the structures of the brain …………

            so this GARBAGE that they are victims and have no control of themselves is just that …… GARBAGE …..

          • Sharon_at_home

            Can you tell me why LGBT people always seem to go to business’ that are run by people of faith (and they KNOW it is) and when they are refused services because of their faith, they sue. Every story that entails something about faith says they come, they are asking for something that they KNOW will be refused, they sue and destroy lives, businesses and they get richer. I’m sorry but do these people not accept our faith? Isn’t that like discrimination too? Why can’t these people leave people of faith alone when they are aware of the situation. There are places everywhere that are not faith based that they can go to with no problems but so many of them always seem to go to the faith based ones first.

            So they say To Hell with our beliefs, they won’t accept them, but We have to accept them even though it is against our beliefs. If we have to respect them in all other ways, why can’t they accept us and respect our beliefs?
            Respect should go both ways.

          • Chris

            “Can you tell me why LGBT people always seem to go to business’ that
            are run by people of faith (and they KNOW it is) and when they are
            refused services because of their faith, they sue.”

            A Few points:
            1) They don’t always do any such thing. Those are the cases which make news. Let’s say a gay couple go to a hotel and ask for a room and the woman who runs the place says ‘ok. Here’s your key. Room’s on the 3rd floor.” How is that an interesting news item? Ah but LGBT refused service and sues makes headlines.

            “Every story that entails something about faith says they come, they are asking for
            something that they KNOW will be refused, they sue and destroy lives, businesses and they get richer.”

            Sorry but businesses do NOT have the right to display prejudice. For example I can have a really devout conviction that I shouldn’t allow purple people in my hotel. Doesn’t mean I can do anything about it. If my business is open to the public then that MUST allow purple people inside.

            “I’m sorry but do these people not accept our faith? Isn’t that like discrimination too?”

            Not being allowed to discriminate is NOT itself discrimination. Are you saying that the heart of Christianity is the oppression of others?

            “Why can’t these people leave people of faith alone when they are aware of the situation.”

            Allow me to give you a thought experiment. Let’s say Christian rituals demand the consumption of hot-crossed buns. I set up a bakery in a little town. Now I make hot-crossed buns but I refuse to serve them to Christians. Is that discrimination? Of course it is. What if I reply that I have a deeply religious reason to refuse to sell hot-crossed buns to Christians? Does that that stop it from being discrimination? No!
            As long as my bakery is open to the public then I sell my goods to any member of the public who wants to buy them.

            However the problems you raise aren’t new. When the Romans occupied Judaea the Jews there were faced with similar problems. There are prohibitions against idolatry yet Roman buildings were full of idols and even the Roman coins had them. Jews were in a real dilemma. If they worked for the Romans or used their money then they had to deal with idols. If they didn’t then they starved. The result was the Jews came to a compromise. Perhaps Christians should do that as well?

          • Sharon_at_home

            In every case I’ve read, the people who sue knew the business owner was Christian. That’s different than going in without the knowledge.
            We’ve made it very clear why we don’t do services that we have to be involved in the sinner’s sin.
            Why do they have the right to force us to go against our beliefs? They are doing that you know. FORCING us.!
            There are enough non Christians that will do whatever service they want – they could respect us for our faith and just go to someone else. People do it all the time for assorted reasons.
            As far as small towns go, people have to go to the nearest big city for a lot of things so having to go so they aren’t infringing on our faith can be just another reason.
            The people who fight us about our faith are unbelievers in Christ. They don’t understand what our faith is or what it means to us. I’ll tell you, it’s just as important to us to go by our faith, as it is for you to say the transgender man ‘needs’ the surgery. Our needs are being trumped by people who don’t understand why we have our faith and feel their need is more important than ours.

          • Chris

            “In every case I’ve read, the people who sue knew the business owner was Christian. That’s different than going in without the knowledge.”

            Not all Christians are the same. For example my mum enjoyed the company of the LGBT people she met. She would never have refused them a good or service. She was also a devout Christian. My point is that just because a Christian runs a business doesn’t mean they will automatically decide anything at all.

            “We’ve made it very clear why we don’t do services that we have to be involved in the sinner’s sin.”

            And where does such refusal stop? How about someone refusing to shine the shoes of gays and lesbians? How about taxis refusing to pick them up? How about trains refusing to carry them? With that sort of guiding principle second class citizens would have been created.

            “Why do they have the right to force us to go against our beliefs? They are doing that you know. FORCING us.!”

            Untrue. In any law there is the law and penalties. The people discriminating [and that’s what they’re doing] can always accept the penalties.

            “There
            are enough non Christians that will do whatever service they want –
            they could respect us for our faith and just go to someone else. People
            do it all the time for assorted reasons.”

            It depends where that someone else is located. Someone being forced by circumstance to travel miles because it’s not available in their town is one thing. Being told that it’s only YOU that has to do this is unjust.

          • Chris

            “So they say To Hell with our beliefs, they won’t accept them, but We
            have to accept them even though it is against our beliefs.”

            Whoa. Hold on a minute. You’re assuming that every LGBT is an atheist, or at least a non-Christian. In fact many of them are Christians. I don’t know if you can get it in the U.S. but try to get your hands on a book entitled ‘A Life of Unlearning’. It’s by an assemblies of God minister who realized he was gay after fighting that realization for years. He’s still a very devout Christian. Have a read and see what life is like from the other side. Fair enough?

            “If we have to
            respect them in all other ways, why can’t they accept us and respect
            our beliefs? Respect should go both ways.”

            You’re right. Respect should go both ways. It doesn’t always though. Sometimes neither side shows any respect. Especially if the issue has become adversarial.

            I’ll give you an example of this problem from my country. One woman lived in a small country town. Only a few hundred people. Anyway she had been used to going to the local chemist and getting the pill. The old chemist retired and a new chemist took over. This guy was a devout Catholic and refused to fill out the woman’s prescription.

            Now this was long before the internet. Her only choices were to demand the pill from the new chemist or drive 500 miles both ways to the next nearest chemist. What do you think should have happened?

          • Sharon_at_home

            I am sorry but my faith doesn’t agree with your views. Are we not allowed to keep our faith because others don’t agree with it? Even a non-christian doctor won’t remove the uterus for any other reason than that it’s necessary.
            I just don’t see why they can’t leave us alone with our faith. They know our feelings about the subject, so why do they want to force us against our belief? Are they not able to accept anyone who disagrees with them about anything? This is what it seems like to me. Everything they want is demanded not asked.
            LGBT people have to accept that some people won’t ever agree with them. At least with us we have a reason in our faith – why can’t they get over it and start finding places that don’t care. Try to get along for the Lord’s sake. The LGBT should accept that many people of faith don’t agree with their lifestyles.
            This woman had the hospital help arrange the operation at another hospital and she still wants to sue them “so no one else has to go through it” Why not make it obvious that that hospital will do it so people don’t go to the one that won’t.
            How is it discrimination if it’s based on a belief, it’s not wanting to go against that belief. It’s not: I don’t like transgenders so I won’t serve them. It’s I can’t because of my faith, that i can’t help you with that, and I am willing to help you find a place that will – which every article about the suing says they tried to be helpful in finding someone else to do it for them. So why are they suing instead of using the person who doesn’t have a problem.
            Small town people have to drive to the Big City all the time for things that aren’t available in the town. What if there wasn’t a Pharmacy at all? She’d have to go to Big City then too. She can’t sue the town for not having a pharmacy.
            I don’t like being told that my faith is not important because someone says it’s not. Just as being transgender is important to them, our faith is just as important to us. Why do they get to trump our beliefs when they have other resources.

          • Chris

            “I am sorry but my faith doesn’t agree with your views.”

            That’s fine by me. Until your faith starts to affect me anyway. Then it becomes my business too.

            “Are we not
            allowed to keep our faith because others don’t agree with it? Even a
            non-christian doctor won’t remove the uterus for any other reason than
            that it’s necessary.”

            Once again performing operations is their job. So why can refuse to do their job for religious reasons? If they are serious about their religious objections shouldn’t they resign? If they did that then I’d be commending the strength of their motives. I wouldn’t necessarily agree but I’d certainly be impressed.

            “I just don’t see why they can’t leave us alone
            with our faith. They know our feelings about the subject, so why do they
            want to force us against our belief?”

            Because the doctors, etc, are supposed to be doing a job. They are refusing to do it.

            “Everything they want is demanded not asked.”

            It’s the zeitgeist I’m afraid. Many people in both your country and mine know their rights and stick up for them.

            “This woman had the hospital help arrange the operation
            at another hospital and she still wants to sue them “so no one else has
            to go through it” Why not make it obvious that that hospital will do it
            so people don’t go to the one that won’t.”

            I don’t know enough about the case to comment here. Perhaps the hospital they referred her too was halfway across the state. Perhaps there are other considerations to consider. I would have to read an unbiased account first.

            “It’s not: I don’t like transgenders so I won’t serve them. It’s I can’t
            because of my faith, that i can’t help you with that, and I am willing
            to help you find a place that will – which every article about the suing
            says they tried to be helpful in finding someone else to do it for
            them.”

            If they are the only place offering this operation in the state then it still may be a problem. I can’t just say I refuse to serve someone because of my faith. Religious belief is NOT an all purpose excuse to discriminate.

            “Small town people have to drive to the Big City all the
            time for things that aren’t available in the town. What if there wasn’t a
            Pharmacy at all? She’d have to go to Big City then too. She can’t sue
            the town for not having a pharmacy.”

            If this is in reference to my question you’re missing one point. The nearest town which had a pharmacy at the time was 500 miles away. Many towns in Australia have a certain dividing line. If certain professionals go then the town starts to die. Chemists are one of those professionals.

            What difference does that make? Well you quite rightly ask What if there wasn’t a
            Pharmacy at all?” Then the courts would consider that she was staying in a dying town and should accept the implications of that. But the chemist, by his decision, has made it a dying town for her but fine for everyone else. That’s not just.

            “I don’t like being told that my faith is not important because someone says it’s not.”

            I hope that you don’t feel I have been implying anything like this? If you feel that I have then you have my deepest apologies.

            “Just as being transgender is important to them, our faith is just as important to us.
            Why do they get to trump our beliefs when they have other resources.”

            It depends on where those resources are located. Let’s say the country says that everyone can use a public toilet. Ok. But the rules are that Christians have to go clear across the country to use one while everyone else can use whatever public toilet they wish. Is that just?

          • Chris

            Sorry but I broke up my really garrulous reply to your post into two.

            “Small town people have to drive to the Big City all the time for things that aren’t available in the town. What if there wasn’t a Pharmacy at all? She’d have to go to Big City then too. She can’t sue the town for not having a pharmacy.”

            If this is in reference to my question you’re missing one point. The nearest town which had a pharmacy at the time was 500 miles away. Many towns in Australia have a certain dividing line. If certain professionals go then the town starts to die. Chemists are one of those professionals.

            What difference does that make? Well you quite rightly ask ‘what if there wasn’t a Pharmacy at all?” Then the courts would consider that she was staying in a dying town and should accept the implications of that. But the chemist, by his decision, has made it a dying town for her but fine for everyone else. That’s not just.

            “I don’t like being told that my faith is not important because someone says it’s not.”

            I hope that you don’t feel I have been implying anything like this? If you feel that I have then you have my deepest apologies.

            “Just as being transgender is important to them, our faith is just as important to us. Why do they get to trump our beliefs when they have other resources.”

            It depends on where those resources are located. Let’s say the country says that everyone can use a public toilet. Ok. But the rules are that Christians have to go clear across the country to use one while everyone else can use whatever public toilet they wish. Is that just?

          • Sharon_at_home

            But Chris the florist and the baker did not refuse to serve them. They were always welcome when they went in to buy flowers or a cake. The problem was that they wanted them to be involved with the sin and that’s where the difference is. With the florist they wanted her to attend the services and ‘make sure’ the flowers were where they were supposed to be.The cake was because they wanted her to put a pro-homosexual symbol on the cake.

            The other thing is these things always end up destroying people’s lives. Is it really necessary to go that far and still get your way? People who refuse to serve are not destroying their lives but offering to help them so they would still be served.

            If they weren’t destroying lives with the law suit it would change how I feel. It’s not right that they can destroy a person’s life and there should be a cap on the amounts these people can sue for. It’s not just Christians that would not agree with destroying others lives.

            And yes I am upset Chris. Christians do try to be good to everyone and that includes the homosexuals and transgenders but there are some things that go directly against our convictions and we don’t want to help because it would mean we would be sinning by helping them with their sin.
            I appreciate that we can discuss this calmly and still disagree. I wish more people could do that. This world seems to be evolving into a world that not one is allowed to disagree with anyone. A lot of the younger generations are like that now. Sadly.

          • Chris

            “But Chris the florist and the baker did not refuse to serve them.”

            Sorry but that’s not the case. “A Colorado judge today determined that a Lakewood bakery unlawfully discriminated against a gay couple by refusing to sell them a wedding cake.”

            From another story “CNN’s Gary Tuchman spoke with a Georgia florist who says she refuses to serve a gay couple and is adamant in her decision.”

            “The problem was that they wanted them to be involved with the sin and
            that’s where the difference is.”

            And where do you stop with this? How about the taxi that drives the gay couple to their marriage? How about the dry cleaners who cleaned their clothes? How about the cook who made their food? Basically you’re saying everyone has a right to refuse service at any time for any reason as long as it’s a deeply held religious belief. Can you see how discriminatory that is?

          • Fang

            They TARGET Christians. They don’t want a cake, they want to shut down someone’s business. These are anti-Christian hate crimes.

          • Chris

            Just like Negroes targeted white stores who were refusing to serve them? Should the white stores have had the option of refusing service due to deeply held religious beliefs?

          • Amos Moses

            ” HE has a male brain.””That’s how HE’D feel 24/7.””Then HE has the temerity to sue people because they refuse to do their job””No one is asking for their approval, only that they do their job!”

            no … “SHE has a male brain” ……. and no she does not ….. life is not based on a persons “FEELS” ……….. it NOT their job to validate her “FEELS” …… if she is asking them to do something they object to on medical grounds ….. i.e. BODY MUTILATION ….. then YES SHE IS …………

          • Amos Moses

            “HE has a male brain”

            For example, it is very hard for me to understand how a transgendered person can claim they should become the other sex because they feel like the other sex; for how can they know what it is like to feel like the other sex if they have never been the other sex?

            But if women and men have the same minds, how is it then that women can have a peculiar perspective or insight which they contribute?
            Similarly, if I understand correctly, it is impossible for males to understand the experiences of women, which is why we men must ever check our privilege; but if it is therefore impossible for men to know what it is like to be a woman, how can one who claims to be transgender know what it is like to be a woman and therefore know he feels like a woman?

            It is also said that to be transgendered means to have a male brain in a female body, or a female brain in a male body; yet are not we told the minds of men and women are equal and identical, and that to argue biological differences between the minds of men and women is a particularly devious trick of the patriarchy to marginalize women’s thoughts?

            But if women and men have the same minds, how is it then that women can have a peculiar perspective or insight which they contribute? It still seems to me that if women have special thoughts and special insights, it must come from a special mind, yet a special mind by definition could not be the same mind as a male mind; otherwise neither would be special, but normal.

          • Amos Moses

            “HE has a male brain””That’s how HE’D feel 24/7”

            so now we have the “science of FEELINGS” ………. i see ….. does that not just blow the whole science thing off at the knees …… you are making the argument that the BRAIN has a gender and or sex ……and IF that is true does not that just destroy the transpersons CLAIM that “gender is just a social contruct” ………….. if it is a “social contruct” …… then how can there be a male and female brain in the WRONG BODY ……

  • http://www.gmail.com/ David van Heerden

    Consider how weird this is: the Roman Catholics, is upholding doctrines that the Methodist church gladly tramples. When the mother of abominations is the last bastion of truth, then when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

    • Jenny Ondioline

      “Mother of abominations”. Did you really just say that?

      • http://www.gmail.com/ David van Heerden

        And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
        And now you do too.

        • Jenny Ondioline

          What on earth does that have to do with the Catholic Church?

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            Nothing.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            I suspect his answer will be very different.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            I suspect you’re right — but my Church is not a whore or a harlot. I’ve been Catholic all my life and I’ve never heard anything besides Christ at Mass.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Yes, I agree – yours is the original Christian church, but you know what fundamentalist Christians think of Catholics…boy oh boy.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            Most fundamentalists I know are solid friends in the pro-life movements.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Most of the ones I know despise Catholics, unfortunately.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            I know those types too — but I like to think of the good ones instead. Those who despise my faith are innocent and simply haven’t heard the truth.

    • BuckeyePhysicist

      Maybe we’re not who you’ve been led to believe we are.

  • Mr Cleats

    Typical of these people – physically revolting. Does it not occur to them that after they shoot themselves full of hormones and have the body parts lopped off, that they still look the same from the neck up?

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    People should live out the birth gender. Period.

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    Jesus declared Himself to be the Truth and that He would give freedom, but He did not say He is the freedom. John chapter 8. God’s truth, then freedom. Romans chapters 1-8. Sinners’ freedom without the truth or morality is a slavery to insanity as seen in this news.

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    A dire result of the secular Western culture that equates Christianity with other beliefs and that groups the colored people and sexually depraved people in the same group to rant the non-existent equality.

  • http://www.biblewordstudy.org Adam: Sword of the Spirit

    Listen, fellow brethren: God’s judgment is about to fall on this nation (the U.S.A.) very soon (as well as the rest of the world).

    This judgment is going to be SEVERE, as the sins of this nation have reached up to the very throne room of Heaven, itself.

    Please repent, while there’s still little time remaining.

    Please humble yourselves (as the Holy Spirit convicts) and repent.

    Repent and turn away from everything that this temporal, wicked world has to offer.

    Fervently seek God’s face in prayer, and listen well for His still, small voice, while there is still time to do so.

    The days ahead are going to be radically different, and exceedingly difficult.

    – – – – – – –

    Pray for the lost — God will save many souls based on the fervent prayers of His children.

  • SoundMind

    “Evan” may be sorry when she wants to return to her created condition and identify as a woman again. So many trannies who mutilate themselves wind up committing suicide partly because they trusted in those who shared in their fantasy.

    On the up side, at least Evan won’t become a mother who passes her dysfunction on to her kids..

    • Chris

      “So many trannies who mutilate themselves wind up committing suicide
      partly because they trusted in those who shared in their fantasy.”

      Actually the stats on that are contentious at best. For example in western Europe transsexuals have found greater acceptance in society and consequently there is little indication that they regret their decision. Transsexuals in the US on the other hand face massive discimination and, as a result some regret some regret their decision and others commit suicide.

      So it sounds like acceptance rather than dissatisfaction with their decision is the main cause in such cases.

      • SoundMind

        Everyone choosing and/or approving of homosexual deviance should go there, because most of the 98% population who is heterosexual–hence, normal–understand that their lifestyles are socially and morally repugnant, and heavily, heavily diseased.

        • Chris

          “Everyone choosing and/or approving of homosexual deviance …”

          Why is homosexuality deviance? And deviating from what?

          “…should go
          there,…”

          Go where? Homosexuals don’t come from a particular country.

          “…because most of the 98% population who is heterosexual–hence,
          normal…”

          If all you mean by ‘normal’ is ‘not done by the majority’ then being homosexual certainly fits there, as does being left handed and having red hair.

          “…–understand that their lifestyles are socially and morally
          repugnant, …”

          First I am a heterosexual and I DON’T think homosexuality is either ocially or morally repugnant. Second why is homosexuality morally or socially repugnant?

          “…and heavily, heavily diseased.”

          No it isn’t.

  • BuckeyePhysicist

    “Let us not fall into the sin of trying to replace the Creator. We are creatures, and not omnipotent. Creation is prior to us and must be received as a gift. At the same time, we are called to protect our humanity, and this means, in the first place, accepting it and respecting it as it was created.”

    – Pope Francis

    • Chris

      “At the same time, we are called to protect our humanity, and this means,
      in the first place, accepting it and respecting it as it was created.”

      And thus you oppose all operations. After all if someone has a weak heart and you operate on him then you aren’t accepting him as he was created are you?

      • BuckeyePhysicist

        Pope Francis is speaking of our creation as men and women.

        • Chris

          But why limit it to that? His principle has so many other applications.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            Yes. It means no abortion, no sterilization, contraception, or euthanasia.

          • Chris

            No heart operations,no…surgery at all really. In fact it could be argued that the whole of medicine is the attempt to replace the creator. After all a doctor is deciding that a person will live when a God created disease would have killed them off.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            Sei pazzo.

          • Chris

            Tsk, tsk doctor. Ah but then semper cogitant et amentes sint sanae. Is that not so? And you strike me as someone who considers himself very sane.

          • Chet

            Sure, it could be so argued by one who is deceived altogether and thus off in his reasoning.

  • http://www.dontneednostinkinwebsite.com/ Midlandr

    She did this on purpose, as part of the ConfusedNazi’s agenda. She is mentally ill, in need of involuntary, residential care.

  • Chet

    Another reason the rino Congress must immediately come together and overturn this disastrous existing health care sham. And the dear lady should check out non Christian heralded hospitals to get her tune up.

  • david

    She needs psychological help.