Judge Allows Advancement of Lawsuit Challenging Denial of ‘Atheist Prayer’ Before Pennsylvania House

HARRISBURG, Pa. — A federal judge has allowed the advancement of parts of a lawsuit filed by a coalition of atheist groups upset that unbelievers cannot present a prayer before the Pennsylvania House of Representatives just like Christian chaplains.

As previously reported, since its initial formation in 1682, the Pennsylvania House has invited a chaplain to offer a prayer at the opening of each meeting. The House’s general operating rules require that those delivering the invocation be “a member of a regularly established church or religious organization or shall be a member of the House of Representatives.”

Nonetheless, in 2014, Carl Silverman with Pennsylvania Nonbelievers contacted House leaders to apply to serve as chaplain and deliver an invocation before the House.

“We do not believe that governmental bodies are required to allow non-adherents or nonbelievers the opportunity to serve as chaplains,” Samuel Smith, the former Speaker of the House, replied to Silverman in denying his request. “We disagree with your assertion that the House may not disallow atheists from serving as chaplains.”

The following year, Alex Luchenitser with Americans United for Separation of Church and State similarly submitted an inquiry as to whether unbelievers may deliver secular invocations before the House. His request was likewise rejected.

“We cannot approve your request,” Parliamentarian Clancy Myer responded.

Last August, a coalition of three atheist groups—Pennsylvania Nonbelievers, the Dillsburg Area Freethinkers and the Lancaster Freethought Society—as well as five individuals affiliated with the groups, filed a federal lawsuit asserting that the denial violates the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment and the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

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“Over the last half-century, our country has made great progress—both legally and socially—toward eradicating discrimination and meeting the goal of equality for all, which lies at the heart of our Constitution. ….  Nevertheless, in the House’s eyes, people who do not believe in God remain a disfavored minority against whom it is acceptable to discriminate,” the legal challenge read.

On Friday, U.S. District Judge Christopher Conner dismissed parts of the suit, while allowing other claims to proceed. Conner rejected the plaintiffs’ arguments that the House rules violate the Equal Protection Clause, as well as the free speech and free exercise of religion clauses of the First Amendment.

However, the case was permitted to move forward based on the atheists’ Establishment Clause claims.

“Whether history and tradition sanctify the House’s line of demarcation between theistic and nontheistic chaplains is a factual issue for a later day,” Conner wrote. “Establishment Clause issues are inherently fact-intensive, and we must resist the academic intrigue of casting the salient inquiry too narrowly at this juncture.”

“To the extent the parties’ arguments evoke more nuanced constitutional questions—e.g., whether plaintiffs practice ‘religion’ and are capable of ‘praying,’ or whether tradition dictates that legislative prayer address a ‘higher power’—any such determination demands, and deserves, a fully developed record,” he said.

American Atheists, which is partnered with Pennsylvania Nonbelievers, expressed satisfaction that the lawsuit will proceed.

“We’re pleased the court has decided that this lawsuit can continue,” said Amanda Knief, legal director for American Atheists. “There is no question that this policy discriminates against atheists. If the House of Representatives is going to invite members of the community to deliver invocations, they must welcome all members of the community, not just those with particular religious beliefs.”

But House Republican Spokesman Steve Miskin noted that Conner’s ruling simply means that the court needs to gather additional facts in making a determination.

“The practices in the House began 335 years ago and we believe conform with constitutional requirements,” he said.

According to the office of the chaplain of the U.S. House of Representatives, the first prayer of the Continental Congress was presented on Sept. 7, 1774 by Jacob Duche of Christ Church of Philadelphia, and was delivered in the name of Jesus.

“O Lord our Heavenly Father, high and mighty King of kings, and Lord of lords, who dost from thy throne behold all the dwellers on earth and reignest with power supreme and uncontrolled over all the kingdoms, empires and governments,” he prayed, “look down in mercy, we beseech Thee, on these our American States, who have fled to Thee from the rod of the oppressor and thrown themselves on Thy gracious protection, desiring to be henceforth dependent only on Thee.”


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  • Grace Kim Kwon

    American atheists mock religions. “Atheist prayer” should not be accepted since it is a mockery; it is a disgrace against all serious religious people. America was created by Christianity, and America should stop mocking the Christianity, the only true good religion on earth.

    • edman

      Atheist are not mocking religion, they are calling it out. Beliefs that are not based in evidence, and can’t prove the claims they make should be mocked. That’s how society advances.

      • Pipkin

        Atheists are losers who play video games and read comic books.

        • Theists are losers who believe in fairies.

          • Amos Moses

            again …. is that a scientific or theological statement ………..

          • I was merely responding in kind. I think you should direct that question to Pipkin.

          • Shane Egan

            You should have gone with the more literal ‘Theists are people who believe in demons and angels armed with swords.’.

          • You say tomayto, I say tomahto.

          • Amos Moses

            k..

      • Amos Moses

        thus NOTHING to pray too ………….

        • Ambulance Chaser

          Maybe it would help if you read the invocation so you knew what the atheists wanted to say.

          • Yeah, but that would require booklarnin’ along the lines of that which teaches people how to capitalize and spell simple two-letter words like “to”. Somehow I think that’s asking a little too much of this particular guy.

          • Amos Moses

            yawn …… objections as to form noted ….. i do not care ……….

          • Oh wow! You can spell “yawn”.

          • Amos Moses

            wow … you can read ……..

          • Ray Sampson

            No need for that smart a.. reply.

          • Tannim

            e e cummings, you aren’t.

          • Amos Moses

            ummm …… duh ….

          • MyLady1

            Gee, everybody can’t be a genius like you. Thank God!

          • Amos Moses

            a-theist have nothing to “pray” to ….. hence …. A-THEIST ……….

          • Ambulance Chaser

            That’s irrelevant.

            Have you read the speech, or one like it?

          • Amos Moses

            well that clears it up ….. it was a SPEECH …. NOT a prayer ….. HENCE … an A-THEIST ….. and there WAS NO PRAYER ………. again … a-theist prayer ….. oxymoron ……….

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Okay, so it’s not a “prayer.” So what? What is your point?

          • Amos Moses

            “What is your point?”

            exactly ….. What is your point? ….. and more importantly ….. What their your point? ….. because it is not prayer …… they can speak anywhere ….. what their point is … is to disrupt ………

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Yes, they can speak anywhere, including the state house before a legislative session. And they’d like to do that.

            That IS their point.

          • Amos Moses

            and no one is stopping them ….. but they do not pray ….. and a time set aside for prayer …… is not theirs ….. if they want to speechify …… two seconds after ….. not a problem ….. but no …. they are demanding a time set aside for other things … and they are not entitled ………. because they do not want to pray …. they want to prey ……..

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Are you trying to allege that the invocation time belongs solely to theists? Because Greece v. Galloway holds otherwise.

          • Amos Moses

            it is reserved for a prayer ….. the a-theist does not pray ….. the a-theist denies God or any gods ……… so what he is asking for is a lie ………

          • Ambulance Chaser

            The question is whether the atheist has a right to deliver an invocation under Greece v. Galloway. I contend that he does. Why do you contend that he doesn’t?

          • Amos Moses

            an invocation is a prayer ….. prayer is to God or gods ….. the a-theist denies any god ….. it is an oxymoron ….. they can get up at any other time at the meeting and make their speech …. as it is not a prayer ……….

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Okay so don’t answer then. I guess if that’s what you want to do.

          • Amos Moses

            no … like everything else you try to argue ….. you can only get there by ALTERING the language …….. a-theists deny God and or gods …. so not a prayer ….. AND YOU ADMITTED IT IS NOT …. you said it was a SPEECH ….. they can speechify all they want ….. NO ONE is stopping them …………………….

          • TheKingOfRhye

            You’re the one “altering language,” with the way you constantly insist on inserting a gratuitous hyphen in the word “atheist”.

          • Bob Peterson

            Here is the thing Amos you have said the same thing over and over again. You are supposed to shake the dust off your feet and move on. They said it was a speech not a prayer. You won don’t keep giving them time to talk the same stuff over and over again. I was healed of grand mal epilepsy and delivered from nicotine addiction instantly in the name of Jesus but how can I pass that info onto an unbeliever that can not believe in the concept? I can’t. He has to want to believe, Pray for these people or tell them something different but not the same thing over and over again, It makes you sound like them,

          • Robert_Loblaw

            definition of invocation: the action of invoking something or someone for assistance or as an authority.
            “the invocation of new disciplines and methodologies”

            So your argument is basically that you’re choosing to ignore one definition of the word in favor of another?

            Those whose arguments have no legal standing often resort to word games.

          • Amos Moses

            yeah … no …. the legal defintion of an a-theist is at issue …. not invocation …….. they are free to speak all they want …. but all they want is to disrupt …..

          • Robert_Loblaw

            Actually no, the legal definition of atheist is not the issue. did you even read the article?

          • Amos Moses

            that is all the law is ……… WORD GAMES …….. i do not care what the article says ….. not the issue ………. the law has whole sections devoted to DEFINITIONS ….. they cannot use common language ….. they resort … ALWAYS … TO WORD GAMES …………

            Luke 11:46 And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.

            Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            omg! and did you know that all words are made up? they’re all made up! guess we shouldn’t try for any objectivity then, huh?

            It’s all so true. those that have no legal standing resort to word games. the law isn’t on your side in this issue, so you want to make it about the definition of atheist hoping to score some points on a technicality. but the fact is: this isn’t at all about the definition of atheist. this is about the law.

          • Amos Moses

            you have yet to demonstrate ANY objectivity ……….. much less how not to play word games …… a-theists deny God ….. any god ….. there is no invocation for them to deliver ….. there is no prayer ……….. end of discussion ………….. what you want to do is ALTER the definition …….. WORD GAMES ………

          • Robert_Loblaw

            you already posted the definition of an invocation. there are plenty of contexts that don’t require a god.

            you lose.

          • Amos Moses

            no …. sorry ……. invocation in this context has always meant prayer …… more word games from you ………. and the evidence of that ….. you just said it ….. “there are plenty of contexts that don’t require a god.” ……… so trying to change the meaning with WORD GAMES ….

            FAIL ………… you lose ….. see ya ….. you can have the last “invocation” …….

          • Robert_Loblaw

            Sorry, except that can be proven wrong. here is the definition of the word invocation: the action of invoking something or someone for assistance or as an authority.

            Where does it state that that person or authority must be religious in nature?

            nowhere. you’re trying to REDEFINE the word.

            it is rather funny of theocrats. they always accuse you of doing what they’re doing. i think that’s called projection, isn’t it?

          • Sharon_at_home

            I did google an atheist speech and the article I found was about the first one that had been allowed to do it. The whole thing sounded like he took a Christian invocation and made it about not trusting God but that science should be used instead of it. It also mocked a speech that God gave to Moses in the bible. The whole thing was focused at mocking Christians, not about what it should have been focused on.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            and in your opinion, what should it have been focused on?

          • Sharon_at_home

            well, they could be encouraging to the officials instead of continually bashing the Christian beliefs like the one I read. The one I read really seemed to be about mocking the Christian beliefs, not recommending another way for them to use in their official duties instead of in a religious manner focusing on God.
            If they would actually sound like they wanted to do an invocation Definitions of a invocation (a bit larger than yours)
            1 the action of invoking something or someone for assistance
            as an authority.
            2. the summoning of a deity or the supernatural.
            3. or an incantation used for this.
            They don’t want to do 1 + obviously they wouldn’t be want to do 2. and probably shouldn’t do 3.

            It sounds like invocation is a biblical term so Atheists wouldn’t be expected to make the speech in normal circumstances. Now they are and have difficulty creating a speech that is in line with what they are supposed to discuss.
            If they can do a speech without referencing religion (which they don’t believe in) I’d be okay with it. The officials involved are capable of choosing for themselves how to do their jobs without involving their religion as it shouldn’t be used already.

            So I guess I am fine with an Atheist doing the invocation under the restriction that it isn’t mocking Christianity. I guess it would be about what they think the officials should rely on (like we encourage them to look to God) when making decisions in the House of Representatives. I have no idea what that would be for atheists other than it isn’t a Christian view.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            You do know that by retyping that definition… you were invoking the dictionary as an authority on the english language… right?

            So how exactly was that a christian only thing?

            Words have different meanings, some of them seemingly contradictory, most certainly not only christian specific.

          • Sharon_at_home

            I would never suggest I’m an authority on very many things, and certainly not the English language as it is a very complex language.
            I pointed all of them out because there were 3 definitions and for me, all of them should have been addressed to show my point. Atheists are not prepared to do something like a prayer for them. They have to get used to it probably so they can write about something other than mocking Christians for their beliefs. Until I see a speech for an invocation by an Atheist that shows what their belief is about the way the men make decisions. Christians pray to the Lord to help them make righteous judgements in their duties. Atheists should be able to do something encouraging for them without it.
            I mentioned all three points because I was making my point that Invocation was a religious thing, not something that Atheists would normally do.
            If you look at the 3 individually they are each about a religion but not all Christian since they mention invoking something, summoning a deity, or the supernatural, or an incantation which is also used by some religions.
            As I look at the first one again, I see it has an authority figure as the one you appeal to for help, but I know that Atheists don’t all have the same authority figure to appeal to. So I don’t know how they would appeal for help for the men in that case.
            So, what authority figure would Atheists suggest to help them with their duties? I’d be interested to know who that would be.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            Ahhhhh you’ll have to forgive me. I had misconstrued the crux of your argument. I thought you were trying to play word games in order to score some points on a technicality, But I see it now as you were arguing more about the overall spirit of a tradition such as an invocation, in that it should be positive. and to that I totally agree.

            I’m not offended by invocations so long as they’re intentions are close to the “spirit” you described. Something that everyone could find uplifting. but that’s not always how it is, is it? in this particular case you have a group of people that refuse to share space with their fellow constituents, they intend to presume that the time before the meetings is somehow entitled to them, and only them. I think that violates the spirit of the thing that you described, yes? that’s really the only issue i find troubling about these cases… nothing good ever comes from a single faction claiming supremacy in a system that is supposed to treat us all equally.

          • MyLady1

            The law is FAR from good or right in a lot of cases. People used to be good, they aren’t anymore. They think some of the meanest, hurtful, and perverted things are good. There is no common sense, no love, no understanding, empathy….. They just want what they want and they don’t care how mean, selfish, forceful, etc., they are. They demand and hurt until they get their way, like selfish, spoiled, little brats, only more evil. A lot of things used to be good or bad. It didn’t mean if you like good you believe in God/a god. People had morals and common sense then, even atheists.

          • MyLady1

            I understand an invocation to be a plea to someone in authority, like God, or a god. It seems like that is what they always have been.They have no one.

          • edman

            So, the atheist is doing it wrong? It’s not your way, so its not correct?

          • Amos Moses

            no …. they are not doing it at all …… prayer is worship …. a-theists claim nothing to worship ….. so its an oxymoron …………

          • edman

            So, you would be ok with a satanist, or a voodoo witch as long as they were praying to a deity? Or are you just ok with a christian praying to your god? It seems that our secual gov. should remove all prayer.

          • Amos Moses

            NOR PROHIBIT THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF ……………… how is that so hard to miss ….. i have read the constitution and i have yet to find any reference to it being a secular government ….

          • edman

            However you feel it is ok to remove the free expression of a group that does not buy into your beliefs.

          • Amos Moses

            a-theists have no religious beliefs ….. they deny the existence of God or god ……. what they want to do is disrupt ….. they do not want to pray …. they want to prey ……….

          • edman

            so they are doing it wrong. You are truly blind to the issue.

          • Amos Moses

            nope …. you are trying to make an issue out of something that does not exist ….. and that is just lying ….. a-theists deny God or gods …. there is nothing for them to pray to by their own admission ….. so a-theist prayer is just an oxymoron and they only want to disrupt and prey ……….. prey of peoples ignorance ….. just like you are ……….

          • MyLady1

            Free expression is fine, but not where it’s for something they don’t want any part of it. I wouldn’t go to an atheist meeting & try to make them pray to God, or whomever. That’s like an all girl or boy team & the opposite sex comes along and tries to force you to include them. Gee, just go to the kind of team you want. Sometimes it’s not what people believe in, but when they come to places where they don’t believe or like what’s going on and try to force people to do it their way. Some don’t just want to change the rule/law they want people to accept it & actually believe it, or they’ll cause trouble. I’ll never believe all the bad in the world is ok & nobody will ever make me. ?I agree with Amos Moses, they prey. If it’s a prayer before a meeting, an atheist hasn’t got anyone to pray to, so what’s the point of them going there for that?

          • Ambulance Chaser

            There are no atheists trying to get equal time in churches. This is a legislative session of the Pennsylvania state government.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Which includes atheists.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            So you just ignored the part right before the one you quoted? you obviously didn’t look very hard.

          • Amos Moses

            nope …. pointed out the part everyone else wants to ignore ………..

          • TheKingOfRhye

            The only type of government that permits the free exercise of all religions is a secular one.

          • Amos Moses

            hence we do not have a “secular” government ….. we do not even have a constitutional republic ……. it was illegally nullified in 1871 …… we had “the united States of America” …… we now live under a false constitution of THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA …… a corporation ……

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “hence we do not have a “secular” government”

            What kind of government do you think it is, then, a theocracy?

            As for the rest of that…..don’t even tell me you’re one of those “sovereign citizen” guys.

          • Amos Moses

            i am a citizen of the Kingdom ….. i recognize no other allegiance ……… i am a transient …. a sojourner ……… a passerby ….. a stranger in a strange land ……. and i am not crazy …… my mother had me tested ………… i am not insane …… i am sane in an insane world …………..

          • Amos Moses

            Since the Act of 1871 which established the District of Columbia, we have been living under the UNITED STATES CORPORATION which is owned by certain international bankers and aristocracy of Europe and Britain.

            In 1871 the Congress changed the name of the original Constitution by changing ONE WORD — and that was very significant as you will read.

            Some people do not understand that ONE WORD or TWO WORDS difference in any “legal” document DO make the critical difference. But, Congress has known, and does know, this.

            1871, February 21: Congress Passes an Act to Provide a Government for the District of Columbia, also known as the Act of 1871.

            With no constitutional authority to do so, Congress creates a separate form of government for the District of Columbia, a ten mile square parcel of land (see, Acts of the Forty-first Congress,” Section 34, Session III, chapters 61 and 62).

            The act — passed when the country was weakened and financially depleted in the aftermath of the Civil War — was a strategic move by foreign interests (international bankers) who were intent upon gaining a stranglehold on the coffers and neck of America.

          • Amos Moses

            Title 28 USC 3002 Section 15 (A) (B) (C) states that THE UNITED STATES is a FEDERAL CORPORATION and not a Government (note the capitalization, indicating the corporation, not the Republic), including the Judiciary Procedural Section. The de jure states in the form of Republics and the de jure united States were subsumed, or set aside by the Bankruptcy Act of 1933.

          • MyLady1

            Our country was founded on God, that’s why they came here. Most papers from that time include His name and even prayers to Him. I’ve read some. If they have a prayer I don’t see how an atheist could do that since they don’t believe in a god. I wouldn’t be ok with a satanist or witch, but whenever there is something good you usually have to take the bad with it. They would be praying to somebody when atheist aren’t. They don’t have anyone, I guess, except themselves. And people sure aren’t a god.

          • Ray Sampson

            in this case yes. pretty accepted meaning have been in exsistence for 100’s of years. Just because you don’t want to accept doesn’t make it not so.

          • Sharon_at_home

            The speech wasn’t in the article, so they did not feel the way the speech was written was necessary to the law they are going to look at. It’s not about what they say, it’s about the law only.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

            That’s one of those pesky laws of which you speak… sounds like the PA house is in violation of it.

          • edman

            Just because someone does not believe in a deity, does not mean they have nothing to feel hopeful to, or wish for. I can hope you educate yourself, and wish for you to seek evidence for your beliefs. I can mutter to myself that these things happen for you. I do not have a sky daddy to pray to, but I can don’t think muttering to a skydaddy will make any difference.

          • Amos Moses

            wish all you want ….. it is not prayer and praying to something you say does not exist is an oxymoron ……….

          • Ray Sampson

            You have a statement, not a prayer.

      • Jason Todd

        Blocked.

        • Johndoe

          You have to be one of the more pathetic posters I’ve come across. Blocked! What’s a little man

        • Shane Egan

          Ah the ‘Stick my fingers in my ears and scream I can’t hear you’ defense. At least other believers try to argue for their points of view but you decide simply to hide from any ideas you find uncomfortable.

          • Jason Todd

            No, as I said before, it is reserved for trolls and morons.

            I don’t care how insecure you are in thinking there’s no God. It doesn’t mean I or anyone else has to listen to it.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            And the atheist position on this whole prayer before government meetings is essentially the same…

            We don’t care how insecure you are in thinking that you’re religion is the only true religion. It doesn’t mean I or anyone else has to listen to it in order to exercise my rights.

          • Jason Todd

            That is correct. You are welcome to plug your ears or leave and return when it is over. The thing is, atheists are telling people, “I don’t like it, therefore no one can pray.”

            No. Freedom of religion. Not from it. First Amendment.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            If i were to say that you are free of any responsibility this weekend, would you take that as to mean you are going to be burdened?

            no. you’re to enjoy freedom of responsibility. just like we are to enjoy freedom of religion.

            Freedom of religion is freedom from religion. But that’s it, we’re not saying you can’t pray. we’re saying that if you are to include one, you must include all. you don’t get to play favorites… after all, the first amendment states that no law shall respect an establishment of religion.

          • Jason Todd

            Freedom of religion is freedom from religion.

            Commie talk.

            But that’s it, we’re not saying you can’t pray. we’re saying that if you are to include one, you must include all.

            BS. Barbra Streisand. The behavior of atheists does not reflect that at all.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            Ha! that’s your answer? to call me a communist? sorry, it’s a fact. you can’t practice your religion with any freedom unless you are also guaranteed freedom from other people’s religion. that’s just simple cause and effect.

          • Jason Todd

            Like I said, you are not being held captive. You are welcome to walk out or hold your ears. You do not get to silence prayer because you don’t like it.

            Oh, and yes, if you hate religion (and it is obvious you do, or at least Christianity), you are a communist.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            Most courtrooms close their doors when they begin. yes, people are being held captive. you are not welcome to walk out.

            but lets try this… if the residents of dearborn michigan, a mostly muslim population, wanted to ban pork… you would say “hey, those pork eaters can go to another city. after all, freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion”

            after all. no one is being held hostage! they can get all the pork they want in another city!

            FREEDOM!

            Muslims seem to hate christianity… does that make them all communists? silly.

          • Jason Todd

            1) Most courtrooms don’t have an opening prayer.

            2) Red herring.

            3) Go take your bigoted claptrap someplace else.

            Blocked.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            I win! another special snowflake had his skirt pulled down and had to retreat to his “safe space.”

            but yeah, that red herring you claim? that’s an example of why you can’t have freedom of religion without freedom from religion.

            its obvious you theocrats don’t want freedom of religion, only special treatment for your own. sorry honey, no free rides!

          • Ambulance Chaser

            I really hope for his sake that Jason never finds himself in a real-life discussion with someone who disagrees with him and there’s no “Block” button in sight.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            Well, we’ve seen what these people do in response to that very situation… they petition the legislature to silence them.

          • MyLady1

            In that case you walk away.

          • MyLady1

            The founding fathers included God and prayer in just about everything. THEY never said to separate, people just think that is what it says. Religious values encoded into law?! No, it’s morals and common sense that use to make laws. And you don’t have to believe in a god to have morals and common sense. People with no morals and common sense are making laws now. And it allows all kinds of bad hurtful things, no common sense.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            actually no, they quite specifically said they intended to erect a wall between chruch and state. hence why divorce is and blasphemy are protected rights in the united states. can you name a religion that enshrines the right to divorce your spouse or blaspheme against any god you wish?

            certainly not christianity.

            that’s because the us wasn’t based on christianity.

          • MyLady1

            That’s weird. I’ve been in quite a few courtrooms and walked out of everyone. No one made me stay.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            were you able to re-enter?

          • MyLady1

            Atheists don’t have a religion or a god, that’s the point, so there’s no one to pray to in an invocation.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            invocation doesn’t mean only prayer. there are multiple definitions of the word that don’t include a religious context.

            if you want to redefine the word to mean prayer only, your welcome to try.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Freedom of religion is not the same as freedom from religion.
            The definition is..
            “Freedom of religion or freedom of belief is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or community, in public or private, to manifest religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship, and observance. It also includes the freedom to change one’s religion or belief.”

          • Robert_Loblaw

            So if an area of the united states decided to ban the consumption of alcohol on account that it is against their religion, and no one in that area was allowed to consume alcohol, for any reason… would you say that catholics would be free to practice communion in that area? no, no one would be allowed to take communion, it’s illegal because it offends other people’s religious beliefs. now some people go further and say “oh, well they can move or drive to another town to get their communion.”

            really? why should someone have to inconvenience themselves or worse, MOVE THEIR HOME, because their neighbors changed their mind about something?

            how can you honestly say there can be freedom of religion without freedom FROM religion?

          • MyLady1

            Exactly right.

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        Atheists only polluted the planet and killed the unborns and Christians. Western ones push unthinkable sexual depravity on earth.

      • tatoo

        Most atheists do not mock religion, but I do. It is so mockable.

        • Jason Todd

          Which makes you blockable.

          • Johndoe

            LMAO!

          • Ray Sampson

            Jason, if you believe what you said, why do you feel the need to dig the Christians. It’s things like that that make us a pretty nasty society. Didn’t your parents teach you if you have nothing good to say, say nothing. Much easier to get along in this world if you practice that. I’m in my 70’s and am saying this to you as a learning tool. You sound pretty young.

          • Jason Todd

            What are you talking about?

        • Intelligal

          Have fun in helll buddy!

      • Ray Sampson

        or in this day and time society is regressing, not advancing.

      • Intelligal

        Christian beliefs are based on “TRUTH”-your problem is you never did seek out the truth and therefore, failed-Period! So shut-up and Stop using our pitiful laws against, good! Evil ones!

      • Barbara Ervin

        In other words no one should have faith in anything that can’t be proven? Hm…

    • Robert_Loblaw

      8 of the ten commandments directly contradict the rights guaranteed by the constitution. The US and its laws exist in spite of christianity and its prescriptions, not because of it.

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        You are wrong. USA is a child of Christian Europe and stole everthing from them. The white people would never have had literacy or any concept of human rights or freedom or equality or even human dignity apart from the Holy Bible and Christianity. Today’s secular Westerners deny Christianity only to uphold their own chaotic sexual immorality and enslave mankind with homosexuality. No thanks to submission to Western pervs. That’s the true slavery. Read the Holy Bible and find out where all your Christian ancestors stole the noblest ideas.

        • Robert_Loblaw

          No, you are wrong. the constitution declares that freedom of religion is a human right. right there in first amendment.

          what does the first commandment say? “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”

          I suggest you read your bible. The god of the bible is an angry and jealous god. you would have to be completely ignorant of the laws of the U.S. to read them and see your god’s inspiration among them.

          would your god say that it is your inalienable right to blaspheme?

          would your god say it is your inalienable right to commit adultery?

          well these are things protected by the constitution of america. where is your god among these laws?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The first command is the basis of the existence of the truth therefore all lawfulness. Christianity alone gives religious freedom to choose to believe in Jesus or not; all others kill you or expell you out of the tribe if you do not comply. Atheism kills people for being inside a womb or believing in God. No Americans imagined themselves to live out blasphemy or adultery. America became bad over time; that’s why it’s dissolving now.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            “Atheism kills people for being inside a womb”

            Are you talking about abortion?

            Because guess what: that is another right protected by the constitution. you’re not doing yourself any favors in your argument that the United states is a christian nation when it’s laws so obviously contradict the prescriptions of your religion.

            The evidence is quite clear. The united states and its laws exist in spite of christianity. not because of it.

            you obviously need to read more of the bible. only a person so far detached from its words could ever claim that the US is a christian nation.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            It was before you were born. All Americans were Christian and educated to be Christian. Atheists can’t deny God’s existence in the science field and that’s why they are trying to erase off Christian legacy from the Western civilization’s history today. Both are impossible tasks.

          • Erm, science isn’t about “denial” – it’s about following the evidence. There is no evidence for god – no evidence, therefore no reason to believe.

            Also, none of the first Americans were Christian.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            Please stay on topic. you said that the US was founded on the principles of christianity. I have showed you that the founding document, the constitution, guarantees as an inalienable right, many things that the christian religion would prohibit.

            it doesn’t matter if it was before i was born. the evidence is quite clear: the US was in no way founded on the christian religion.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The USA has nothing original except for the Puritan virtues. Everything else was handed down from the Christian Britain. USA invented things, but not thoughts or language.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            so you have nothing to back up those claims? you were lying?

            that’s just being a bad christian.

            bad christian!

          • MyLady1

            Maybe you should read some original papers. The article has God and prayer in that first prayer of the Continental Congress. Why did they allow that if they didn’t have “religion”?

          • Robert_Loblaw

            where did i say that they didn’t have a religion? I’m merely saying that they weren’t all christians, hence why they didn’t create a nation specifically and only for christians. which is pretty obvious when you can see how many things are protected as rights, despite these same things carrying mandatory death sentences in the bible.

            if you think you see your god’s inspiration in constitution, you might want to reconsider.

          • MyLady1

            It was founded on religion. Good laws were made. Over the years people got bad and made laws that allowed the bad. Today there is a whole lot of bad and they have changed even more laws to allow it. If we make a law saying we can kill anyone we want, is that good? We can already kill them with a car or a suction tube. Laws don’t make things right or ok, just “legal”. If I lved away from civilization I would still know it’s not nice to just kill someone, or hit them, or take their belongings, etc.. I’ve known that since chilhood, without being told some of those things. Now days, I can’t even keep the neighbors kids out of my yard, off my porch and car, because theey think they can do whatever they want to whomever they want, and their parents agree. There has to be some common sense and good or the world will be an even bigger mess than it is now. And you don’t have to believe in any god to do that.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            your religion says that if a woman is not a virgin on her wedding day, she must be stoned to death.

            religion doesn’t make things good, only religious.

    • Tannim

      America was not created by Christianity, and you’re an idiot to think that.

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        America is a child of Christian Britain. Christian America is good and secular America is bad. Americans are 100 years behind the Russians.

      • Sharon_at_home

        There is no need to be rude just because some people disagree with you. If you don’t like what a person posts just skip it for the Lord’s sake!
        No matter what she posts, she is still a nice lady and deserves more respect than your post gave her.
        We aren’t here to call each other names. Usually unbelievers harass us about our faith but they try not to be too rude. We prefer to discuss our different beliefs even.

        • TheKingOfRhye

          No matter what she posts? This is an online forum. I have nothing to go on BUT what someone posts.

          “We aren’t here to call each other names”

          I agree. Now tell that to Grace, who puts down atheists and Americans at every opportunity.

    • Freedom Fighter

      Non-thinker.

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        Americans lost freedom by hating the Christian religion. No Christianity = No morality or freedom. As long as it opposes the Holy Bible, the West is always and for-ever a slave-owner – by racism yesterday and by Sodomy today. The latter case is incomparably worse.

  • Amos Moses

    “Atheist prayer” ………. Oxymoron ….

    • Grace Kim Kwon

      Like the Soviets, they can’t erase God from their mind.

      • edman

        god’s don’t need to be erased. Eventually the god’s of the past are easily seen for the man made myths they have always been. The current god’s will end up in the same place.

        • Amos Moses

          interesting theological statement …… what proof do you offer …………

          • Brad Feaker

            Burden of proof is yours – you are claiming a god exists. Prove it.

          • Amos Moses

            God and the truth is either accepted or rejected ….. it is not up to me to prove what is manifestly true by everything you see including yourself ….. does the visible world become visible and is made by that which is invisible …….. true or not ……

          • Brad Feaker

            You god and his “truth”, if they actually existed, are monstrous. So when you can back up your theological claims with evidence…let me know.

            I won’t hold my breath.

          • Sharon_at_home

            It’s OK if you don’t believe in our God. Just don’t slam the door behind you… God bless!

          • Why would we slam the door or even close it? We want to help you to join us and give up your harmful beliefs. That’s why most of us are here – we’re trying to stop you from wasting your lives on a harmful lie.

          • Sharon_at_home

            I can’t believe you said that… How are our beliefs harmful and to whom?
            For believers following Jesus makes our lives better not worse.
            Telling others about our faith is no different than you telling people that there is no God.
            There are people that push the limits, but they are going beyond what Jesus said from my understanding. And that is only a small percentage of the Christians in the USA.
            People of deep belief won’t listen to you telling them there is no God. We know there is and know that there will be people who don’t. We accept that you don’t believe because of your posts. Can’t you please accept that we have a right to our beliefs without you telling us things that can’t possibly change our faith in God?

          • Brad Feaker

            Oh – I won’t. I find the company of Christian bigots tiresome.

            Good day.

          • Jason Todd

            Second verse, same as the first: You are insecure in your belief there’s no God some you come here to make yourself feel better.

          • Brad Feaker

            Nah – I come here to poke fun at folks like you Mr. Todd. I find the self righteous arrogance on Christian web sites endlessly amusing.

            Have a nice day.

          • Jason Todd

            But that’s not why you come here, is it? You can do what you say you do without ever leaving your safe space.

          • Brad Feaker

            You have a lovely day Mr. Todd.

          • Jason Todd

            You too.

          • Brad Feaker

            Thank you.

          • Amos Moses

            so how do you come to any moral judgement of how “monsterous” He is ….. tell me precisely on what basis you are able to form that idea in your brain ….. AND YOU STILL HAVE NOT ANSWERED THE QUESTION ………..

            does the invisible world become visible and is made by that which is invisible …….. true or not ……

            ARE YOU UNABLE TO ANSWER THIS BASIC QUESTION ……..

          • Brad Feaker

            How do I know it is monstrous? I can read. Why don’t you try it sometime? Your holy book is really fond of things like genocide and slavery.

            And when you actually ask a question that makes an ounce of sense, I will be happy to answer it.

            Cheers…

          • Amos Moses

            “How do I know it is monstrous? I can read. Why don’t you try it sometime? Your holy book is really fond of things like genocide and slavery.”

            AND AGAIN … you DO NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION …….. i can read …. what ALLOWS you to form that moral judgement …… it is not READING ….. how do you come to the conclusion …. THAT is what is being asked ….

          • Brad Feaker

            How do I come to the conclusion that your Bible and god are monstrous…here you go:

            Human sacrifice: Judges 11:30-40

            Genocide:

            And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain. Deuteronomy 2:34

            And we utterly destroyed them, … utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. Deuteronomy 3:6

            And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them. Deuteronomy 7:2

            And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them. Deuteronomy 7:16

            Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. Deuteronomy 13:15

            But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. Deuteronomy 20:16-17

            And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. Joshua 6:21

            So smote all the country … he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. Joshua 10:40

            Thus saith the LORD of hosts … go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 1 Samuel 15:2-3

            Slavery: Look at Exodus chapter 21

            I could keep going and going.

            Good day

          • Amos Moses

            nope …. i did not ask you for scriptures …. that does not prove your point … BY WHAT MECHANISM ….. in your mind ….. what ALLOWS you to come to ANY conclusion that it is “monsterous” ………. from where does that knowledge come ………….

          • Brad Feaker

            If I had a neighbor as evil as your god, I would sell my house and move. How can I judge? They same way I judge others who perpetuate evil. And when the being you worship (if it were actually true) glorifies itself for committing genocide (which your holy book assuredly tells us IT does), then I am perfectly justified in judging that behavior as monstrous. And, no, your god is not above judgement either – especially when the majority of human beings I am personally acquainted with are far more ethical and morally sound than your barbarous deity.

            AND SINCE YOU LOVE ALL CAPS THAT IS HOW I WILL ANSWER YOU FROM HERE ON. AND I KNOW YOU DID NOT ASK FOR SCRIPTURE – YOU GUYS HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE POINT OUT JUST HOW TERRIBLE IT IS AS A GUIDE TO MORALITY.

            Cheers…

          • Amos Moses

            “If I had a neighbor as evil as your god”

            HOW DO YOU KNOW IT IS EVIL ………….. that is the crux of what i am asking ….. on what basis do you come to that conclusion …………… HOW DO YOU KNOW ………

          • Brad Feaker

            It is actually very simple – I learned what is good and what is evil by how our society has defined those terms. And so do you – you were not born with any sense of morality. It was taught to you by your parents and by the rules of our society.

            Is human sacrifice evil? I certainly think it is. But your deity is OK with it – read about Japhthah and his daughter in Judges 11.

            So – I am still waiting on that evidence for your god. Let me know when you find some.

          • Amos Moses

            “I learned what is good and what is evil by how our society has defined those terms.”

            and WHERE DID THEY learn that …………. you are not answering the question …… YOU made a value judgement ….. a value judgement about what is good and what is evil …… WHERE does that come from ….. if you say “society” …. then “society” once said the mass extermination of Jews was ok ………….. WHY or WHY NOT ………….. HOW do YOU determine if it was right or wrong …. good or bad ….. evil or not …………..

          • Brad Feaker

            I answered your question – you just do not like my answer.

            So, answer this. Is human sacrifice good or evil? That is a yes or no question – so which is it?

            Still waiting on that proof too.

          • Amos Moses

            no ….. if you say “society” …. then “society” once said the mass extermination of Jews was ok ………….. WHY or WHY NOT ………….. HOW do YOU determine if it was right or wrong …. good or bad ….. evil or not ………….. TRY ANSWERING THE QUESTION ….

          • Amos Moses

            and i told you …. the truth is either accepted or rejected …. you reject the truth ….. no “proof” will be accepted by you ………..

          • Brad Feaker

            Let me fix that for you.

            the truth is either accepted or rejected I have no evidence.

          • Amos Moses

            no …. i have all the evidence …… you have nothing but accusation and conjecture and rebellion …… you do not accept the evidence and no evidence will change your mind …….. no “proof” will be accepted by you ………..

          • Amos Moses

            FYI … there is no human sacrifice in scripture ………… so not sure what the question refers to …. but no … it is against God ………….. it is evil ……..

          • Brad Feaker

            No – this has nothing to do the Abraham/Isaac fairy tale…and it show just how ignorant you are about your own holy book. It has to do with Judges chapter 11 verses 30-40.

            So is human sacrifice evil or good? Answer the question and stop trying to dodge it.

          • Amos Moses

            btw …. i answered the question ….. there was no command of God to do that ….. it says that no where in the scripture you cite ……. so not sure what your point is …. it is out of context …. and it lacks any meaning …… there is not one scripture that says that the people in the bible were all virtuous …… and it highlights good with the evil men do …… otherwise how would you know the difference ………

          • Brad Feaker

            30. And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,

            31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord’s, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

            39 And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel

            You should really try and get your reading comprehension up to speed. What did Jephthah vow? To make a human sacrifice to your god. Unless somehow “burnt offerring” really means “he gave her ice cream”.

            Now, was that act evil or good?

          • Amos Moses

            yeah …. he vowed ….. God did not tell him to do that ……. nothing there about God authorizing that ….. so FAIL ….. and YOU just quoted it …. did YOU read it ……

          • Brad Feaker

            Did God reject this sacrifice? Did he tell him not to sacrifice his own daughter? Your god is supposed to be all powerful right? Jephthah’s daughter was innocent of any wrong doing, yet your blood thirsty god was more than happy to let him murder her.

            So if your god condemns human sacrifice as evil and he willfully allowed one human being to murder another as a “burnt offering”…your god is evil. All your deity has to do was tell him to stop. But no – your god loves blood shed it seems…his book is full of it.

            And to show how just how hypocritical you are – you are actually trying to defend it.

            That is disgusting…disgusteing but typical of Christians – you guys write the book on hypocrisy.

          • Amos Moses

            you have no evidence that God WANTED or asked for this sacrifice ………. Christ was innocent of ANY wrong doing ….. and sacrificed Himself … He gave His life …. no one took it …. as the daughter did ……. this story is a picture of Christ and His sacrifice …… and the evil that men do to the innocent …… it is a for-shadowing, a shadowy word picture of the sacrifice of Christ …….. as is most of the OT scriptures ……..

            John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. (all of scripture testifies of Christ)

            John 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

          • Brad Feaker

            Yeah – I have the exact same evidence for that as you do for the existence of your god.

          • Amos Moses

            no you dont ……… the evidence for God is around everyday of your life … you ignore it and suppress it …… and you have no evidence that God asked that that act be committed … it is not in the text …..

          • Brad Feaker

            Show me some of that evidence then. Prove it. You really like to make bold claims considering you lack a single shred of empirical evidence to back them up.

            Cheers…

          • Amos Moses

            as i said before ….. you have been shown …… everything you see in this universe is the evidence ….. you lie to yourself and deny the evidence …….. what is it i am supposed to show you when your whole game is “show me, then i will deny that you have shown me, and you lose” ……. like a two year old who covers their eyes and they think you have disappeared …….. the only response that you will ever offer will be “no it is not, neener, neener, neener, you lose, i was not convinced” when you never had any intention of being convinced ….. you can go along and play your little game for the rest of your life ….. it will not change the evidence of God and a created universe …………. it will not alter the truth one iota ………

            BTW ….. it was never my job to convince you of anything ………… i made no “bold claims” ….. my only job is to present you the truth …… you have denied the truth ….. so what is left to say …… except that you deny the truth and the evidence that the universe presents to you …………

          • Brad Feaker

            Blah, blah, blah – you have shown me absolutely nothing even resembling evidence. When you actually have some evidence – or even if you can actually learn how to hold up your end in a debate, let me know.

            TTFN…

          • Amos Moses

            i did not say i have shown you …. i said YOU HAVE BEEN SHOWN ….. and you have ………

          • Brad Feaker

            Nope – no one has ever shown me evidence at all. You guys are real short in that department it seems.

            Toodles

          • Amos Moses

            blindness that you choose to embrace will not serve you well ….. and again ….. THERE IT IS ……….. “no it is not, neener, neener, neener, you lose, i was not convinced”

            JUST AS I SAID …………… two year old child response ……….

          • Brad Feaker

            Well, since you seem to want to swap insults…

            JUST AS I SAID……. brain dead response…..AND WHY DO YOU CHRISTIANS LIKE TO USE ALL CAPS SO MUCH?……..DO YOU THINK IT MAKES YOUR ARGUMENT ANY BETTER?…..and what is with all the ellipses?

          • Amos Moses

            THERE IT IS ……….. “no it is not, neener, neener, neener, you lose, i was not convinced”

            JUST AS I SAID …………… two year old childs response ………. (this is the broken record response, FYI) ………….. you did not come here to be convinced …. and not my job to convince you ……… you have no real argument ……..

          • Brad Feaker

            Mr. Moses – you just do not get it. Let’s just see who has an open mind here and who does not.

            Should you (or anyone) be able to actually provide some hard evidence to back up your religious claims, I would be happy to apologize for being wrong and change my mind. That is all it would take. The fact is – neither you nor anyone else has been able to come up with any.

            Now – what would change your mind? What would make you take a hard look at what you believe? I am predicting your answer in advance – it will be some variation of ‘nothing will change my mind’. You are perfectly OK with centering your entire existence around a religion fraught with bigotry and hatred. A ‘Holy Book’ that is full of contradictions, factual errors and morally repugnant ideas.

            So – unless you are actually to present a coherent argument – I will leave you and your atrocious abuse of the English language to yourself.

            Good day sir.

          • Amos Moses

            “Should you (or anyone) be able to actually provide some hard evidence to back up your religious claims, I would be happy to apologize for being wrong and change my mind”

            nope …. lie …. and the PROOF ….. “The fact is – neither you nor anyone else has been able to come up with any.” ……. you refuse to see the evidence …….. you will not be convinced as you already have the evidence and have had it since you were a child and you also JUST stated “Let’s just see who has an open mind here and who does not” and you then proceed to prove that you are not in any way interested ……. self-refuting garbage ……… and it has not made an iota of difference ….. and as i said ….. it is not up to me to convince you of the truth ……… so your false claim of “willing to be convinced” is refuted ….. BY YOU and your own statement ………

            i cannot prove you exist …. can you prove you exist …….. how would i do that …… what evidence is there that you exist ……… do you have any ….. i doubt it ……..

          • Amos Moses

            ” I am predicting your answer in advance – it will be some variation of ‘nothing will change my mind’.”

            i am interested in the truth ….. if i have the truth ….. the only place to move is away from it …. you OTOH, cannot tell me what the truth is …. so what is it, what truth do you think you have …………..

            “A ‘Holy Book’ that is full of contradictions, factual errors and morally repugnant ideas.”

            no evidence …. accusation …. no knowledge ………. worthless ……..

          • Amos Moses

            “you have shown me absolutely nothing even resembling evidence. ”

            THERE IT IS ……….. “no it is not, neener, neener, neener, you lose, i was not convinced”

            JUST AS I SAID …………… two year old child response ……….

          • Sharon_at_home

            burnt offerings in the bible were animals, not people.

          • Brad Feaker

            So you are actually trying to claim that Jephthah daughter wasn’t human? Is your reading comprehension that poor?

          • Shane Egan

            Survey results from all western countries, including the U.S, show a marked and rapid decline in religiosity. There are no western countries, again including the U.S, where the majority of people under the age of 30 say that religion is an important part of their life. Even amongst believers the percentage who say they are absolutely sure of the existence of a god is declining – down 11% in seven years. These figures are according to the Pew Research Centre. Do you have actual data which contradicts this trend?

          • Amos Moses

            well that explains that people stop believing …… but it does not prove your point ….. and it does not say that “gods” are erased ……there are people who still pray to ancient “gods” and they have not disappeared ….. i do not dispute the numbers that you have shown ….. but it does say what you are saying …… and it gives no reason for WHY they quit believing …….

            11 Dec 2014 … Even though Greece is a predominately Christian Orthodox country, there are some people in this country who still believe in the 12 Gods of mount Olympus, deriving from Greek Mythology.

            so no …………. care to try again ……….

          • Shane Egan

            How many ‘gods’ of Mesopotamia do people know, or the Olmec? Does anyone know who they were or how they were worshipped except (possibly) a few scholars. Are they any more or less extinct than dinosaurs?

            When your ‘God’ is one of the many gods for whom nobody even remembers their name will they then be extinct? Or do you really believe that your god will be remembered, unchanged in form or features in 100 years, 1000, 10,000, 10,000,000, 100,000,000?

            If you do believe that, then why has the characteristics of ‘Christian Nations’ changed so much in the last few centuries? Why do preachers no longer preach as they did in the 17th century, or the 12th or the 1st? Why is what was once considered a ‘horrible sin’ now committed by the majority of the ‘righteous’ everyday? Could it be that your ‘unchanging word of God’ originated in and is a reflection of the wider culture?

          • Amos Moses

            my God has been here from the beginning ….. over 7000 years of recorded history …. and is still here ….. so i am not even sure what you are talking about …… you want to argue about a thing disappearing …. that has never disappeared from the minds of men …….. and my God has said that the heavens and earth may pass away, but I will never pass away …… and He never has ……

          • edman

            IF your god speaks, do you have any recording of this? I personally think your god is nothing but an imaginary belief that you hold because you are afraid of this big world without it. It is like a security blanket. What would you do if you used logic and reason, rather then superstition and myths.

          • Amos Moses

            God has spoken outloud to Moses and the entire nation of Israel at that time heard his voice …… and they did not like what they heard ……… if you want to hear Gods voice …. read your bible …. if you want to hear it AUDIBLY ….. read it OUTLOUD ……….

          • edman

            What a joke. That is a very sad answer. The bible has been written, re written, translated, changed, updated by kings, and then mass produced for people like you who believe it is the word of an all power super universe creator. Like a universe creator would use an old misunderstood, misguided, immoral text to get its word out. Grow up and use critical thinking skills would youl.

          • Amos Moses

            “The bible has been written, re written, translated, changed, updated by kings, and then mass produced for people like you who believe it is the word of an all power super universe creator.”

            and you have no evidence of such a claim ……….. so just a lie ………… compared to ANY ancient writings …. IT IS NOT EVEN A CLOSE CALL ……..

            Dramatically, when the Bible manuscripts are compared to other ancient writings, they stand alone as the best-preserved literary works of all antiquity. Remarkably, there are thousands of existing Old Testament manuscripts and fragments copied throughout the Middle East, Mediterranean and European regions that agree phenomenally with each other. In addition, these texts substantially agree with the Septuagint version of the Old Testament, which was translated from Hebrew to Greek some time during the 3rd century BC. The Dead Sea Scrolls, discovered in Israel in the 1940’s and 50’s, also provide astounding evidence for the reliability of the ancient transmission of the Jewish Scriptures (Old Testament) in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries BC.

            The manuscript evidence for the “New Testament” is also dramatic, with nearly 25,000 ancient manuscripts discovered and archived so far, at least 5,600 of which are copies and fragments in the original Greek. 4 Some manuscript texts date to the early second and third centuries, with the time between the original autographs and our earliest existing fragment being a remarkably short 40-60 years.

            Interestingly, this manuscript evidence far surpasses the manuscript reliability of other ancient writings that we trust as authentic every day. Look at these comparisons: Julius Caesar’s The Gallic Wars (10 manuscripts remain, with the earliest one dating to 1,000 years after the original autograph); Pliny the Younger’s Natural History (7 manuscripts; 750 years elapsed); Thucydides’ History (8 manuscripts; 1,300 years elapsed); Herodotus’ History (8 manuscripts; 1,350 years elapsed); Plato (7 manuscripts; 1,300 years); and Tacitus’ Annals (20 manuscripts; 1,000 years).

          • Amos Moses

            “The bible has been written, re written, translated, changed, updated by kings, and then mass produced for people like you who believe it is the word of an all power super universe creator.”

            Homer’s Iliad, the most renowned book of ancient Greece, is the second best-preserved literary work of all antiquity, with 643 copies of manuscript support discovered to date. In those copies, there are 764 disputed lines of text, as compared to 40 lines in all the New Testament manuscripts. In fact, many people are unaware that there are no surviving manuscripts of any of William Shakespeare’s 37 plays (written in the 1600’s), and scholars have been forced to fill some gaps in his works. This pales in textual comparison with the over 5,600 copies and fragments of the New Testament in the original Greek that, together, assure us that nothing’s been lost. In fact, all of the New Testament except eleven minor verses can be reconstructed outside the Bible from the writings of the early church leaders in the second and third centuries AD.

            In real terms, the New Testament is easily the best attested ancient writing in terms of the sheer number of documents, the time span between the events and the document, and the variety of documents available to sustain or contradict it. There is nothing in ancient manuscript evidence to match such textual availability and integrity.

            The academic discipline of “textual criticism” assures us that the Bible translations we have today are essentially the same as the ancient Bible manuscripts, with the exception of a few inconsequential discrepancies that have been introduced over time through copyist error. We must remember that the Bible was hand-copied for hundreds of years before the invention of the first printing press. Nevertheless, the text is exceedingly well preserved. Again, I pondered this — of the approximately 20,000 lines that make up the entire New Testament, only 40 lines are in question. These 40 lines represent one quarter of one percent of the entire text and do not in any way affect the teaching and doctrine of the New Testament. I again compared this with Homer’s Iliad. Of the approximately 15,600 lines that make up Homer’s classic, 764 lines are in question. These 764 lines represent over 5% of the entire text, and yet nobody seems to question the general integrity of that ancient work.

          • edman

            When a book has unicorns, supernatural stories, and mythical claims, it should be easy for you to realize it is not a true story. Just ask yourself, if an all knowing, all powerful universe creator were to leave some documentation of its wants and needs from the human race, would it have not done better than an old misunderstood book ? Then leave the book with an ancient tribe of sheep herders. This is just a mind fuck that you have been indoctrinated to believe.

          • Amos Moses

            we have unicorns today ……. it is not disputed ….. you are using a definition of unicorns that DID NOT EXIST at the time of the writing of it ….. so your definition does not apply …….

            the unicorn is the rhinoceros ……. its name in latin is Diceros bicornis (black rhinoceros) or Rhinoceros unicornis (Indian rhinoceros) ………. but nice try …. FAIL ….. try again ……..

            FYI …. you do not understand what you are reading ….. it is far more than just the words on the page …… and you are doing a VERY SELECTIVE read of it ….. what ….. did you just get all this “information” off some website …… you should find better websites ….. this is a good one to start ……. and you are already here ………

          • edman

            How do you know that in the bible they were referring to the Rhino? Do you believe that Adam and Eve were the first humans? Do you think the snake in the garden talked? Do you accept evolution?

          • Amos Moses

            if you look at the Websters dictionary ……… of 200 years ago ….. the word rhinoceros is defined as a UNICORN … and if you look up the word unicorn ….. it says it is a RHINOCEROS …… your modern day definition of a “mythical horse” ….. DOES NOT APPLY ………

            “Do you accept evolution?”

            in what sense …………… that is a very broad term …. you will have to refine that ………..

            “Do you think the snake in the garden talked?”

            you cannot use scripture to defeat scripture …. you do not accept it …. so why do you use it …. there is little to nothing you can tell me of the SERPENT that was there …… BTW …. YOU are acting as a serpent right now …. i assume you can talk ………….. and by “talk” i mean emit sound that is understandable …… if you could even tell me about who the serpent was and his characteristics ….. you might have shot …………..

          • edman

            How about jesus walking on water, rising from the dead, turning water into wine, and other supernatural claims. It seems you would have to reject reality to accept these claims.

          • Amos Moses

            well i would ….. IF there were not numerous witnesses to those events …………. and they were written about ….. and if the people who wrote those things ….. when threatened with death …… did not recant to save their own lives …….. and were then put to horrible deaths …. to include being boiled in oil … crucifiction …. and more …. and all they had to do was say “i lied” ………….. but they did not …… they said “it happened” ………

            James – Was put to death by the sword by Herod Agrippa.(Acts 12:2)

            Philip – Was tortured then crucified by the Jews in Phrygia.

            Matthew – Beheaded at Nad-Davar.

            James the lesser – Brought to the top of the Temple in Jerusalem, was cast off and then beaten to death with a club.

            Peter – Crucified, by some reports, upsidedown.

            Paul – Beheaded by Nero in Rome.

            Andrew – Hanged on an Olive tree in Patrae, Achaia

            Thomas – Thrust through with pine spears, tormented with hot plates, then burned alive.

            Nathaneal (Bartholomew) – Was flayed then crucified.

            Matthias – Stoned to death while hanging on a cross.

            Judas Thaddeus (not Iscariot) – Beaten to death with sticks.

            Simon the zealot – Martyred but the manner is not recorded.

            John – Thrown into boiling oil, did not kill him but scarred him for life. Then poisoned. Then sent to prison on Patmos.

            so ……………….. no ……

          • edman

            Amos, I know a lot of people who once believed these same things you do, and did the research and moved passed them. I will hope that you do to some day. I find it hard to believe so many people buy into this nonsense, but it is what it is.

          • Amos Moses

            no … you did not research …. you listened to what you wanted to believe ………….. and again …. IF it is nonsense ….. then you should EASILY be able to prove that ….. BUT YOU DO NOT ………. and people have been trying to do that …. for THOUSANDS of years and it has not worked out for them …. look ….. if you believe or do not believe …. its not up to me ….. IT IS UP TO CHRIST ……………. but you ….. CAME HERE ….. we did not go looking for you … YOU CAME HERE …… WHY ….. because it seems you want answers ……….. but you refuse to accept the answers …………

          • Amos Moses

            BTW …… people leaving the churches and embracing apostasy …… abandoning the truth of scripture …… FORETOLD in scripture …….. it surprises me not ………

          • Ray Nix

            Who cares about statistics, I don’t know what I know because of statistics, and I know their is a God based on the fact that I sought Him and found Him, with evidence. If I were the only one on the planet that knew God or just believed versus the other 99% who didn’t that would not change my mind at all. I don’t follow the crowd. I am so thankful I now have a relationship with my Creator-God, what wonderful peace an joy I now have in my soul and no wilfully ignorant and delusional person who don’t believe in God could ever persuade me or anyone who truly knows their God that he doesn’t exist. Athiest blow my mind on how they can be so willfully ignorant and stupid. Sadly, atheist make me just shake my head and say, how can someone allow themselves to be so rebellious and stupid.

          • edman

            You have a relationship with who you think is the universe creator. Do you not see how absolutely stupid that sounds? Does this god of yours manifest in reality in any way? I once had an invisible friend when I was younger. I grew up.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Christians often have had things that could have only happen the way it did because of God. The problem is, while we are sure of the blessings of our God, you deny Him, so even if we did present these testimonies to you, you would just try to find a way to prove it couldn’t be Him, or that it couldn’t have possibly happened the way we say.
            We do have proof, we just know that you will dispute it no matter how it is presented, so we just enjoy our faith with the blessings that come from having faith in the creator.
            You feel sorry for those of us with faith, but we feel sorry for you because you don’t have it.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            No, you don’t actually have proof. you only have personal anecdotes. Those aren’t considered an acceptable form of proof in a court of law, why should we allow them in a court of public opinion?

          • Sharon_at_home

            Are random witnesses to the event proof?

          • Robert_Loblaw

            You could call it evidence in as much as eyewitness testimony is considered in a court of law(as per the analogy we are using) however, that testimony must be substantiated.

            To elaborate further: You can have 3 people say they saw a man jump 100 feet vertically in the air and kill a guy, but that is certainly(and for obvious reasons) not “Proof” of how the actual crime went down.

          • Sharon_at_home

            So if a witness says he saw something happen and was astonished about it because he saw it, that’s still not proof? Oh, and this person is not a Christian.
            So telling you about something that happened to me, that I can’t prove other than by witnesses is still not proof enough. And I suppose you won’t believe my testimony because I can’t get the person to come on this board and testify to it happening?

          • Robert_Loblaw

            Nope. all that proves is that someone misunderstood something. your lack of understanding of a situation does not constitute proof of god. using the earlier analogy, if 3 people all testified that they saw a man jump 100 feet into the air to commit a murder does not mean that we must accept that humans are capable of jumping 100 feet.

            lets try this from a more personal angle, forgive me if this cuts too close i’m not intending to offend, merely demonstrate.

            Lets say someone you know and love is harmed by another person, killed even. in this case there are 3 witnesses that say an angel of god appeared and evaporated your loved one, so there is no reason to look for a body or a murderer.

            would you accept that as proof? would you be satisfied with them ceasing the investigation? no, you wouldn’t, and neither would the courts. why should that demand for substantiation of claims differ with matters of religion?

            Every great mystery, once understood, has turned out to be… not magic. I don’t expect that to change any time soon.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Perhaps you can help me find how this happened then because I can’t imagine how it did.
            I can give you a testimony, but how do I prove something
            happened a couple of years ago. This isn’t something you could take pictures
            of. It’s something that happened for about a year and a half consistently. Is
            this proof to you?

            My Testimony
            My husband and I were leaving church on a day we had been taught a new song
            that said God will ‘keep me from the rain’ and we were discussing what it would
            be like.

            Later on after a month or so, we noticed that we hadn’t been rained on even though it had rained a couple of time when we were out, it seemed to have stopped when we were outside.

            Then we started to notice that on our side of our building it would be raining
            when we were leaving, but by the time we got outside it had stopped, and after
            we were on the bus it would start raining again. One time when the bus driver
            had just closed the bus door, it came down in torrents that made most of us
            comment on it’s intensity. It rained that whole ride, but stopped before we got
            to our stop.

            This happened for a year and a half consistently. We did not get rained on once
            in that time, even during our times of more rain.

            Do you really think this could be ‘just a coincidence’ when it happened that often
            for that long? Sorry, I can’t believe that. It had to be God blessing me. There
            is no other explanation that I can imagine.

            But as I said, the only thing I have is my husband as a witness, although the
            bus driver could be if I could find him and ask him. He saw it happen.

            I guess I could get some people to swear that I’m an honest person who would
            not lie. I believe in treating people the way I want to be treated and I do not
            want to be lied to. So I wouldn’t want to lie to anyone as a result. This is a
            true story that happened.

            Is that proof enough of why we believe in God? He blesses us so often with
            things, that we can’t imagine that there ISN’T a God who loves us.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            Alright, this is going to sound like i’m just trolling you or trying to be sarcastic, but i’m honestly trying to demonstrate a point, so please bear with me alright?

            Rain dances! what you experienced by not getting soaked during downpours is obviously the result of native american rain dances. You must have been kind to a native american, so he performed a rain dance to beseech the rain god to grant you his blessing. rain dances have been done for thousands of years (way before the bible was even written, in fact!) and have been witnessed and verified by thousands(if not hundreds of thousands!) of native american people!

            Now, i’m sure you find that to be a bit silly, don’t you? but how do you go about verifying which account truly explains your experience of not getting caught in the rain? only one of us can be correct, right?

            wrong. we can also both be wrong. it is entirely possible that there are hundreds or more of equally logical and possible explanations to your experience.

            see here is the problem. you’re offering these strange circumstances not just as proof of A god, but proof of YOUR GOD. I’m certain you see these strange events as confirmation that your religion is true. that your god is real and the bible is his word. yes?

            well… the bible has talking snakes and donkeys. by saying that you not getting wet is not only proof of a god, but proof that your religion is true… you’re making quite a leap here, you’re basically saying that because you and your husband didn’t get wet, I must accept that your god is true, and as such, all accounts of his work are true.

            By asking that I accept that your evidence of not getting wet is proof of your god, you’re basically asking that I accept that you not getting wet also means that there must be talking snakes and donkeys… or that virgin births occur.

            I read your story and all I can be sure of is that you experienced something strange… but to you, you take that as a sign that everything else you’ve been told about god is true. Can you not see why I’m not willing to make the same leaps in logic to say “Some person told me she didn’t get wet in a rainstorm, therefore talking snakes are a thing.”?

            More importantly… I must ask if you can honestly make that connection for yourself. Is that how you feel about this? You didn’t get wet, Therefore the accounts of virgin birth and resurrection must also be true?

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Sharon is apparently the anti-Rob McKenna. (Hitchhiker’s Guide reference)

          • Sharon_at_home

            “it is entirely possible that there are hundreds or more of equally logical and possible explanations to your experience.”
            Please suggest 5 of those ways and I will agree with you.
            I don’t think you have a clear understanding of the bible. I can see you have read it, but I think you did not have someone with experience helping you to understand it. You can’t just read the bible without help understanding it or it will be just a story. If someone with a good knowledge of the bible explained the various things that you find hard to imagine, I believe you would at least begin to understand our faith in God’s Word.
            I appreciate you not completely dismissing my testimony. It’s hard for me to talk about it because I expect people to tell me that they don’t believe me. I understand! It was a very overwhelming feeling every time it happened. It was hard to believe it myself until it kept happening. I can imagine there being an explanation for one or two times, not close to each other etc. but when it happened that consistently, I couldn’t imagine how it could be anything but God. So if you can give me just 5 of those ways it could have happened, I will agree with you. Good luck and God bless!

          • Robert_Loblaw

            Hmmm… I’m afraid you missed my point. Remember that this all started as a discussion about why we should not be expected to accept your evidence as substantiated and therefore proof of your god. so let’s return to my earlier analogy. once again, allow me to apologize in advance if thinking about these terrible things unsettles you, but try to bear with me.

            in the original analogy, someone you love has been murdered. the last people known to have seen them alive give this testimony of the events: “An angel of god appeared and vaporized /insert name of loved one/ so there is no reason to look for a body, and no one to blame for murder.”

            now i’m sure any reasonable person would not be satisfied with this statement. certainly you wouldn’t, yes? are you a rational person? yes? so you ask for them to substantiate their claims, and in the most sincere and seemingly honest account, they tell the exact story you just told me about you and your husband not getting wet… and they say “See? we didn’t get wet. so it must be true that an angel of god vaporized /insert name of loved one/”

            again, would you be satisfied with that explanation and seek no further inquiry into the death of your loved one? I’d hope not. and it is the same reason you would reject their claims that i reject your own claim that you not getting wet is proof that jesus was the son of god and was resurrected after death.

            Extraordinary claims should not compel you to believe. extraordinary claims should compel you to seek extraordinary amounts evidence.

          • “Christians often have had things that could have only happen the way it did because of God.”

            Okay, give me your best example, along with the evidence that shows it could only have happened the way it did because of God.

            I won’t hold my breath.

          • edman

            You do understand that 1st person experience that can not be duplicated, tested, or reviewed is not evidence of anything. I once had an amazing thing happen to me that I can’t explain. Did a god do it, or was there some other explanation? I’m not going to give a god the credit, because that is just a default answer. EVERY TIME something has been not understood, and then later we figured out the answer, IT has NEVER BEEN a god. Faith by definition is belief without evidence. I don’t see any value in that.

          • “Who cares about statistics”? I dunno – just those of us who care that what we believe is based in reality. But hey, reality is overrated, right?

            And you have evidence? Really? Wow! It’s been over 2,000 years and no one has come up with actual evidence. You’re the first one! Congratulations!

            So don’t be shy. Let’s hear it! What’s this evidence you’ve found? You might want to call the newspapers, TV stations, radio etc. – they’ll be able to get this new info to all the scientists. It will be great! Maybe you can send a tweet to Stephen Hawking – he’s bound to be excited about it.

          • edman

            You found god? wow, please provide the evidence that supports that. I personally think you made that shit up in your head.

          • Sharon_at_home

            That’s strange, I just read an article yesterday about a survey of college students vs. high school dropouts and a majority did feel God was important to their lives. Most Christians become more attentive to the religious side of their lives after College.
            It was a Pew study too.
            The decline was supposed to be surprisingly low from what I read.
            I read a lot of articles from all over yesterday, but I’ll try to find the article I read.

          • edman

            Ancient Roman gods, ancient greek gods, American Indian gods. They all have become extinct for the same reason your god will one day as well. ZERO evidence of existence.

          • Ray Nix

            edman you are hilarious. You have become so dilerious and delusional to not believe their is a God- Creator of us all. How much dumber can you get, no dumber. So the conscious in you that has told you when you have done wrong, whether it was when you were a little boy or an adult, like you know you should not lie to someone and if you do you would normally feel bad, or to steal from someone, where does that conscious of what is right and wrong come from. You will never be able to escape it you foolish man, and it comes from God, the Creator. You will be in for the shock of your life when your physical body dies and you have to answer for your life. where does that instinct come from in the little brain of a buzzard to browse the earth to eat the dead things, why is that his function in life. Why do we have scavengers that were created to nothing but scavenge the earth or the sea to keep things somewhat clean. What a coincidence you would say. why does the sun moon and stars function as they do, and the dew of the night etc. You are so wilfully stupid and rebellious and all the atheist like you, you had best wake up before it is to late. This scripture applies so wonderfully for you and your kind. ROM 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

            ROM 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

            ROM 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

            ROM 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

            ROM 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

            ROM 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

            ROM 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

            ROM 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

            ROM 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

            ROM 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

            ROM 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

            ROM 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

            ROM 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

            ROM 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

            ROM 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

          • LOL! The irony of a guy who can’t spell “delirious” or “conscience” calling anyone else “dumb”.

          • edman

            Quoting bible verses is no way to prove your point. Please provide any evidence that your bible is the word of a universe creator that requires us to follow it, and do as it says. This is just a giant mind fuck. The book is not true because it says its true.

          • Amos Moses

            you have no evidence of extinction … if so then present it ………. again …. absence of evidence is not evidence of absence ….. fail …. try again ………

          • edman

            Remember the god that does not manifest in reality is indistinguishable from the god that does not exist.

          • Amos Moses

            remember that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence ………… and all that means when you cannot see the manifestation ….. is that you have failed to look in the right place ……… the evidence is plainly visible …….

          • edman

            So the default position is not to believe something that has no evidence of existence. Your god is a default answer, not an answer.

          • Amos Moses

            there is abundant evidence …… you just refuse to see it ………. you cannot see it ….. but that does not mean it is not there ………… again ….. do invisible things make up everything, absolutely everything, that is visible ………. yes or no ………… and just because they cannot be seen … does that mean they, and you, do not exist …………

          • edman

            I will take any evidence you have for your god. There is the same amount of evidence for your god as there is for flying pixies, or pink unicorns. Just man made nonsense that keeps the weak on fearful hopeful of something better when they die. WEAKNESS.

          • Amos Moses

            you are the evidence ….. you have the evidence …. you have always had the evidence ….. you DENY the evidence ….. you suppress your knowledge of the evidence ……. and you do it in an active manner ….. so much so that you have become comfortable with all the energy you expend to do it that you do not realize you are expending it …… it is not up to me to prove truth to you … it up to me to PRESENT you with the truth ….. you either accept or reject the truth ….. and you reject it without a thought ….. as you are comfortable expending the energy to do it ………..

          • edman

            Saying I have the evidence, just shows me that you are so full of shit. The burden of evidence is always on the person making the claim. You can’t call it the truth, and provide nothing but ” you have the evidence” nonsense. It just proves that you are completely without the truth, and just want to inject nonsense because you personally accept it without supporting evidence. Ignorance is bliss to you. Not me. I’m not going to buy into ancient mythical stories because they make me feel better, or provide simple answers to complex questions. I’m sorry you are so simple minded.

          • Amos Moses

            your eyes do operate … right …. EVERYTHING you see is the evidence …… and if you can see a mirror …. then you can see yourself … as your very existence is evidence …..

          • edman

            LOL. You are wrong, Everything you see was created by a giant blue dragon 12k years ago. Prove your story is more true than mine. Use evidence to prove your point. If you have the same amount as me, then guess what? See your issue may be that you don’t understand how evidence that can be tested and reviewed works. Take a science class. You can’t just make claims, and then say look at yourself, that’s my evidence.

          • Amos Moses

            as i have said …. the truth is either accepted or reject …. you REJECT the truth ………. and nothing i “show” you is evidence as you deny the truth ……… evidence is BELOW the truth …. evidence supports the truth …… BUT IT IS NOT the truth ……….

          • edman

            IT’S not the Truth you believe. The truth requires supporting evidence, and you point to the mirror, and the trees. I say a giant blue dragon created everything, and the reason i know it’s the truth is because the sky is blue. That is my evidence, a blue sky. I can’t believe you can’t see the truth.

          • Amos Moses

            nope … the truth is a measure of the evidence ….. the evidence is not truth ……… each person has a view of the evidence ……. and that VIEW determines what they think the evidence means …………….. your VIEW of the evidence does not include God ….. so your VIEW of the evidence …… IS IN ERROR ….. scripture is the only truth …… when you reject truth ….. your perceptions are in ERROR …………. you can make up what you want to be the truth ….. but that DOES NOT MAKE IT THE TRUTH ….. truth does not change …. there is no your truth and my truth ….. truth is not subjective and the truth does not care that you do not believe it ….. it is still the truth ……………

          • edman

            You have no Idea how one comes to understanding the truth. You are simply injecting your belief, and you have zero evidence to support it. When asked to provide any evidence you point me to a mirror. You claim there is a supernatural universe creator, but you provide no evidence for that, but an old book. You say that without this thing you believe in without evidence that I can not have the truth. You go around in circles, and then call what you believe to be true. My Blue Dragon God is going to strike you dead for not believing in him. I can’t believe how blind you are.

          • Amos Moses

            “You have no Idea how one comes to understanding the truth. ”

            no …….. that would be you …….. the truth is KNOWN ……… the truth is SELF EVIDENT …… and it is the MEASURE of all else ………. you are in ERROR …… as your VIEW does not include God ………….. and all you have left is ERROR …………..

          • edman

            That is just nonsense you have accepted to be true because you believe it to be true. That is why you are completely wrong. You believe it is true, because the book says its true. Circular logic.

          • Amos Moses

            well IF it is nonsense ….. then it should be easy to prove …. and you have YET to do anything in that arena …. all you have is conjecture and accusation …………

          • edman

            Prove my Blue Dragon is not true. Prove my lord Blue dragon did not create the universe 12k years ago. Its not your job to prove that, and if you can’t that does not make my story true. It would be my job to prove it to be true, and saying the sky is blue is not evidence of the story. Your belief is no more true than mine. I don’t care how many people believe the story you believe, because it would not matter how many believe the Blue Dragon story either.

          • Amos Moses

            again …. truth is either accepted or rejected ….. why do we have to keep going over this …….. i have no writings or anyone else who has said anything about this matter …. where as scripture has an established record of THOUSANDS of years of existence and has yet to be defeated by the likes of you …………. WHAT YOU GOT ………….

          • edman

            You accept it without evidence, and I reject it for the same reason you reject all the other gods throughout history. For some reason you don’t require evidence for the god you believe in.

          • Amos Moses

            the evidence is ABUNDANT ………… you reject the evidence ………..

          • edman

            That is a logical fallacy. It is not any ones job to disprove the claims religions make. It is religions job to prove their claims. If they can not, there is no reason a logical, reasonable person should believe such supernatural claims. The same reason you don’t believe in the 1000’s of other god throughout history, is the same reason i don’t believe in your god.

          • Amos Moses

            ” It is not any ones job to disprove the claims religions make. ”

            then why are you here …. as that seems to be YOUR only mission here ……..

          • edman

            I could care less what crazy shit you believe. My point is you believe what is completely absurd without any supporting evidence. The only reason I have a issue with religious beliefs is they seem to want to be injected into our secular government. They seek to remove people’s freedoms, by claiming that its what their god wants. If jews wanted to remove pork from everyones diet, I would not stand for that either. Religion is a stain on society, and the main cause of war.

          • Amos Moses

            “I could care less what crazy shit you believe””My point is you believe what is completely absurd without any supporting evidence.”

            then why are you here ………. OBVIOUSLY that is a lie ………. eyewitness testimony is evidence ….. and IF you reject that …….. then you reject the system of justice in this country ….. as it is all built on testimony ………….

            “They seek to remove people’s freedoms, by claiming that its what their god wants.”

            there is no freedom outside of God …… there is chaos and anarchy …….. and nothing else …. freedom does not just happen ….. and IF you look at HISTORY ….. freedom as it is in the US ….. is not the norm …… it is the ANOMALY …….. and it is the ANOMALY because of christianity …………

          • edman

            So, you believe there were eyewitness to the resurrection? Or eyewitness to the empty tomb? You believe that these stories that were told almost 500 years after they were said to happen is good enough for you to believe them. You have a very low threshold for supporting evidence. You are buying into all the standard nonsense that christianity tries to use to keep believers believing. Remember if something is True, faith is not required to believe it.

          • Amos Moses

            “You believe that these stories that were told almost 500 years”

            the EVIDENCE does not support that assertion ……….. so FAIL ……….. the scriptures were written as soon as 30 years after …. and probably less ….. we have copies of the scriptures from that time ….. and if we have COPIES ….. then the originals existed PRIOR to that …………. FAIL ………

          • edman

            Let’s say they were written 20 years after the stories were to have happened. Seems an all powerful god could have given us a better account than 20 year old hearsay to such an important story. Your god’s word is a bit weak to say the least. I don’t think you care about what is true, you care about protecting what you believe.

          • Amos Moses

            the NT scriptures were written by the disciples … they witnessed and then wrote it down ….. they were there ….. so NOT hearsay ………. i care about defending the truth …. and you have none …….. you have unsupported accusation ………. and no facts to back it up ……..

          • edman

            So the truth is an all powerful universe creator created this small planet on the far reaches of one of billions of galaxies in the universe, and sent down his son to die for the sins of man, then come back to life and ascend to heaven to live as our lord, and protect heaven from people who don’t believe this.

          • Amos Moses

            “So the truth is an all powerful universe creator ”

            John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

            so the truth is a person ….. the person of Christ Jesus ….. so yeah … you got that part right ….. so whenever you read that “the truth” or refer to “the truth” ….. that is Christ …..

            “created this small planet on the far reaches of one of billions of galaxies in the universe”

            yep ….. so we would know our place in it …. we are not the center of the universe ….. He is ….. good for you …. you picked up on that ……….

            “and sent down his son to die for the sins of man, then come back to life and ascend to heaven to live as our lord, and protect heaven from people who don’t believe this”

            3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
            3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

            because the penalty for violation of His law is death …….. but He made a way for His people to bypass that and be saved ….. and the promise of that is that He did that for us …. and it was witnessed ….. and He does not save everyone ….. He saves only His …..

          • edman

            You’re reaching Amos. So this god of the universe created all this space for one small planet, and he tempted Eve with an apple, and she took the temptation that god gave her, and then we had the fall of man into sin. Seems like a very mythical story for anyone to buy into. So, now it all comes down to believing in this story as true, and a promise of an afterlife. It’s thought control at its highest level, and you have bought into it hook, line and sinker.

          • Amos Moses

            nope …. He created it to Glorify Himself ……… as the scriptures state ……… not a reach ….. scripture ……

            19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
            19:2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
            19:3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
            19:4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
            19:5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.

          • edman

            You do understand that you are picking and choosing from “scripture” and interpreting it for your beliefs. How do you know that you are interpreting it correctly? I’m sure you don’t think owning other people is ok, how do you justify your bibles condoning slavery? Do you eat shellfish, or work on the sabbath? How do you know what stuff you need to follow, and what stuff not be follow?

          • Amos Moses

            “You do understand that you are picking and choosing from “scripture” and interpreting it for your beliefs. ”

            no … that is what YOU are doing ….. i gave you the scripture ….. you choose to not believe what it says ………… FAIL …………

            “How do you know that you are interpreting it correctly?”

            Context ………

            “I’m sure you don’t think owning other people is ok, how do you justify your bibles condoning slavery?”

            How do you know it is bad or wrong or even evil …………… and you are comparing US slavery to Levitical slavery and there is nothing you can tell me about it i do not already know ……… they are not the samething …..

            “How do you know that you are interpreting it correctly? I’m sure you don’t think owning other people is ok, how do you justify your bibles condoning slavery? Do you eat shellfish, or work on the sabbath? How do you know what stuff you need to follow, and what stuff not be follow?”

            talk about CHERRYPICKING …. that is all you have just done ……….. and you accuse me when you then do the EXACT same thing you say is wrong ………… ummmmm ….. right back at cha dewd ……………….. HOW DO YOU KNOW ……………….

          • edman

            So there are different ways to own another human that you are ok with? It is very specific in the bible how to treat your slave, and when and how you can beat them.

          • Amos Moses

            you are owned …. i do not see you complaining ……… so you must be ok with it …….. every person on welfare is OWNED ….. i do not see you crying your eyes out about that ….. you are enslaved by forces you do not even recognize as having ownership of you ….. and i see not one complaint from you ….. just because you are not in chains and beaten everyday ….. DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE NOT ENSLAVED ………….. and you are ……….

          • edman

            I think you are completely trying to justify your bible, and thinking that there is some way to compare the advocating for slavery in the bible to whatever mental gymnastic excuse you just tried to give.

          • Amos Moses

            i do not have to justify it …………… you are enslaved …. are you not …. are there things that you are required to do that you do not want to do …… but if you do not ….. there is a penalty ….. physical and other ….. is that true …………..

          • Amos Moses

            HOW DO YOU KNOW ………………. how do you come to the conclusion it is evil or wrong or bad ………. what was the purpose ….

          • Amos Moses

            How do you know it is bad or wrong or even evil …………… how …. by what mechanism ……

          • edman

            I go through life trying to do as little harm as possible. That is my morality. I try to see others as equal, and wish for everyone to have equality. Morality changes over time, and religion believes it does not. Secular morality is far more superior to these ancient teaching. The religious go on faith, and follow these ancient barbaric teachings. Then people like you try to justify slavery.

          • Amos Moses

            “That is my morality. ”

            but that does not answer the question …………. How do you know it is bad or wrong or even evil …………… how …. by what mechanism ……

            “Secular morality is far more superior to these ancient teaching. ”

            so SELF-justification ….. SELF-righteousness ……

            “Then people like you try to justify slavery.”

            ANSWER THE QUESTION ……….. How do you know it is bad or wrong or even evil ……………

          • edman

            Same way you do. You just want to give credit to a god you have no evidence for. My guess is you are far more moral then the teaching in your old book. That is why you make excuses for it and attempt to justify it.

          • Amos Moses

            that does not answer the question ………. How do you know it is bad or wrong or even evil …………… by what authority …. on what basis …. do you come to a conclusion it is wrong ………….

          • edman

            I live in a society that works by the same principles. Does it cause harm to others ? Did we as a society deem it illegal? We use our brains and we work together to develop a system that works as best as possible. We learn as we go, and mortality changes over time. You can think all you want that there is some higher big daddy in charge, but zero supporting evidence.

          • Amos Moses

            “I live in a society that works by the same principles”

            ok …. better answer … a completely faulty answer ….. but better …..

            so ….. if “society” says it is okay to kill Jews …..and that “society” deemed it legal …… whether it caused harm or not ….. because the argument WAS that their existence CAUSED HARM …… then its ok ………. do i understand you correctly ……

            different idea …… SLAVERY was LEGAL in the US ….. IN LAW ….. FROM ITS BEGINNING …….. and it was deemed it caused no harm ….. in fact it was deemed BENEFICIAL ……. so was that ok …… why not ….. what has changed …. TRUTH does not change ….. but your argument is that “SOCIETY” is the judge ……. but “SOCIETY” has made COLOSSAL wrong decisions ……

            SO AGAIN ……. How do you know it is bad or wrong or even evil …. IF that (society) is the standard ………

        • Grace Kim Kwon

          USA will be gone, but the Word of God is forever. Read Isaiah 40. Because you have only a short national history, you are near-sighted. Americans become atheistic because they are bored.

          • I’m not American. Your god isn’t real.

          • Johndoe

            So is the Cat in the Hat

    • edman

      So, if they don’t prey like you, their words don’t count?

      • Amos Moses

        they do “prey” …. that is their whole point ……..

        • Brad Feaker

          Yeah – look at all those google hits you will get about those mean old atheist criminals…oh wait. Not a whole lot there. No google christian and child molester together and take a look at those results!

          • Amos Moses

            well i would submit ….. that those child molesters ….. while wearing the false label of “christian” ….. ARE closeted a-theists and have no real belief in any god …… much less the christian god …… lots of wolves try to pretend to be sheep ……… John Wayne Gacy was a clown to get next to children and other victims ….. Ted Bundy pretended to be injured and in need of help to lure women …… but it surprises you that those who commit such acts are liars ……. what a deluded worldview ………….

          • Brad Feaker

            Ahhhhh – the “No True Scotsman Fallacy”. Typical…..

            A deluded world view? I call believing in something with no evidence (which is what all theists do) deluded.

            Good day.

          • Amos Moses

            does the invisible world become visible and is made by that which is invisible …….. true or not ……

            ARE YOU UNABLE TO ANSWER THIS BASIC QUESTION ……..

            NTS …. DOES NOT APPLY ……

          • Brad Feaker

            WTF? Let me know when you learn how to speak in complete sentences and utilize proper capitalization.

            Good day.

          • Amos Moses

            cannot answer a simple question …………. FAIL …… your ideas are a failure as you CANNOT answer this simple question ……….. FAIL ………. see ya …. would not want to be ya ….. BOOYA ….

          • Amos Moses

            and actually …. what you are saying is …. No True A-theist ………. so FAIL ………..

          • Brad Feaker

            No – what I am saying is your religion is pure poison.

            Have a nice day.

          • Amos Moses

            FAIL ……….. and a FAILURE to prove any point ………

          • Brad Feaker

            You really have a limited vocabulary in addition to poor grammar, punctuation and spelling. Mr. Moses.

            That, plus the fact that all of your arguments are empty of content.

            Have a nice day.

          • Sharon_at_home

            well, duh, if religion wasn’t involved it wouldn’t be said. If there are crimes that are committed by people who are atheists, they wouldn’t address it. So any crime that is reported in the media without a specific mention of a religion could be an atheist.

          • So how do you explain the fact that there are vastly more Christians in prison compared with atheists, as a proportion of their respective populations? Is the lack of atheist prisoners some kind of government conspiracy to only jail believers?

          • Sharon_at_home

            I expect that is because they learn about Jesus and repent for their sins and become “Christians”. They aren’t necessarily Christian when they go in.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            is that really the most likely explanation, though? Or is it that going to church and calling yourself a christian makes you no better of a person than standing in a garage makes you a car?

          • Sharon_at_home

            I don’t think I deserve to be treated quite that rudely.
            I don’t believe that everyone who calls themselves Christian actually follow Jesus, which is the only sign of a Christian of faith IMO. As you say, a person that just goes to church but doesn’t follow Jesus is not going to show the same characteristics so some people do not show the proper way for a Christian to behave.
            I don’t think I could ever say I was a better person than anyone else because I am a Christian that follows Christ. I try to be the best person I can be but that doesn’t mean others do.
            And really, there are lots of people – not just Christians – that think they are better than everyone, so isn’t that just life?
            It used to be that not everyone will like you, not everyone will be nice to you, but that we should be nice towards them anyway. Everyone can have a bad day or something happening in a day that was upsetting for them. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt because I don’t know these things.
            I don’t know why you seemed so angry at my suggestion of a reason? I apologize if I said anything that troubles you beyond our disagreement about faith.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            Sorry you have me all wrong. I think it’s worth noting I am not the original person you had responded to, So if you were feeling aggression from him, I hope that doesn’t carry over to me.

            I did not mean to insult you, I was more saying I don’t think simply going to church and calling yourself a christian makes anyone a better person, That takes good acts! if someone is in prison, I think it’s a foregone conclusion that they’re not much for good acts.

            So i was more asking, which is more likely: that a bunch of atheists go to prison and become christian… or that people who proclaim themselves to be christians don’t always act like it?

          • Erm… as far as I know, the data is collected upon entry into the prison system.

            But even if that were not the case, your explanation is just one possibility, and it represents the best case scenario for your side of the argument. There is certainly no data supporting it.

          • Brad Feaker

            All you have to do is google the religious breakdown of the US prison population. Less than 1% are atheist – guess what the majority of criminals are? Why Christian of course!

          • Jason Todd

            A lot become Christians while incarcerated, troll.

          • Brad Feaker

            Sorry Mr. Todd – it is not trolling when I am right.

            Cheers

          • Jason Todd

            Right about what?

    • The General

      “Atheist” ….. moron

      • Amos Moses

        well the word in Greek used and translated as “fool” is “moros” and is also the base of the word moron …

        G3474
        μωρός
        mōros
        mo-ros’
        Probably form the base of G3466; dull or stupid (as if shut up), that is, heedless, (morally) blockhead, (apparently) absurd: – fool (-ish, X -ishness).

  • Croquet_Player

    Atheists do not offer prayers. They would give a secular invocation. As atheists are citizens just like everyone else, they should also be offered the opportunity to open the Pennsylvania House of Representatives just like anyone else.

    • edman

      Does it matter to you what god is prayed to? As long as it is some supernatural universe creator you are ok with that.. Since atheist don’t manufacture mythical god’s in their heads they can’t give invocations at a secular governments meeting.

      • Croquet_Player

        I don’t care what god religious people offer their prayers to, that’s entirely up to them. Atheists may offer secular invocations, and simply leave supernatural entities out. The point is they are being excluded from a civic function, which is obviously unfair, as they are citizens just like anyone else, and have every right to participate fully in every aspect of government.

    • Grace Kim Kwon

      Atheists did not create nations but only ruined them. American atheists should immigrate to North Korea their own utopia and leave Christian USA alone. USA is a Christian product. All British colonies are.

      • Shane Egan

        Sorry, where are the Ten Commandments the law in any country in the West? Anywhere? No, I didn’t think so. Of those ten commands (plus the hundreds of others in the Bible) the vast majority – more than 95% in total – are not enshrined in any laws in any Western nation. In fact we have laws specifically outlawing many of them.

        Even the ones from the ten commandments that are included in Western laws (Don’t steal, Don’t murder, Don’t lie) are far older than the Mosaic laws by

        Saudi Arabia is far closer to the Christian ideal than the U.S or Britain.

        • Grace Kim Kwon

          You are wrong. Americans are mere illiterate savages like the rest if they had no Bible or Christianity. Christianity made Europe therefore America civilized and educated. The West has only useless porn stories apart from Christianity. Ancient Greeks sought the good and converted to Christianity. Americans should stop attacking their own good Christian conscience this century. Atheism only destroys and kills. Pay your debt to China.

          • Shane Egan

            So, you actually can’t provide facts about any Western countries based on Biblical law? Didn’t think so. Pesky things those facts for belief systems like yours based on mythology.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The Holy Bible is the eternal Word of God. You American atheists must stop repaying the good with evil to the Christian Church. Christianity is everything true and excellent and noble of the entire Western Civilization. The West has nothing good or worthy apart from Christianity. Stop attacking your own father and mother.

          • Shane Egan

            So, still no actual evidence of a Western legal system based on the Bible? So I guess you consider Western laws and civilization not good then – since it does not come from the Bible?

            Or will keep making assertions without backing them up because you actually have zero evidence for them?

            Just repeating your assertion without evidence is the tactic of a child trying to bully others into sharing their viewpoint. Adults find evidence, then state their case based on that evidence and logic. You just can’t seem to graduate to anything but ‘I believe it so it must be true’ – the catch-cry of the fool and the sucker.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The lawfulness comes from the Ten Commandments in Exodus chapter 20. The West stole much from the Holy Bible; you have no idea what your ancestors stole because you are illiterate on the Holy Bible. Go back to the Origin. Non-christian humans had no idea on human rights or freedom or equality; those are exclusively Judeo-Christian teaching and the Christendom alone had it. Evidence is this; Christianity is good and vital, and the Post-christian West is Sodomic and evil.

          • edman

            So you believe before christianity there were no laws, and civilization was without order? You must have been home schooled.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            There were only primitive ones. I was secular-educated, too. Christianity is incomparably profound. I saw the modern Western whites hating their own Christian ancestors because they hate Christianity too much, and I realized that Christianity alone has been good and right all along because Ex-christian West is such a Sodom.

          • edman

            Have you heard about China? You may want to research their civilization long before christianity. Roman, Greek as well.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            They had nothing like the Holy Bible. Western civilization was superior only because of the Christian faith and the Holy Bible in the readable form. You Western descendants are wasting God’s blessings like some rotten kids from a rich family by being ungrateful. Poor your fathers.

          • Bob Johnson

            Not to mention the Mesopotamian Law Code of Hammurabi written around 1750 BC.

          • Shane Egan

            So, other cultures, like China, which were far in advance of the West in may ways had no ideas about human rights or equality – while the Jews with their ‘beat slaves so long as they don’t die in a few days’ and ‘women marry your rapist’ were the champions of equality? Are you sure you are not a troll pretending to be Christian?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            How advanced was China or any other civilizations except for the Christian Britain? Non-Judeo-Christian civilizations are all similar – illiterate, barbaric here and there, women-oppressing, and wealthy landlords’ for-ever peasant slaves, until the European Reformers brought the Holy Bible into the hands of mankind. You can thank China for gun powders and papers, but that’s just about it. Today’s Western kids are brainwashed by the liberals to equate all civilizations, but that’s the deadly falsehood.

            Christendom and all others are different as the light is different from darkness. Possession of the Holy Bible made mankind to quest for the objective truth. The Jews alone treated the slaves humanely among the abusive mankind. Modern men rape and run away; the Jews fed and took care of everyone. Why do you guys always attack the Jews who are superior? The existence of the Jews is another proof that that the Holy Bible is unequally and incomparably superior; all others are average.

          • Shane Egan

            So, you consider being able to beat another human being, breaking arms, legs, ribs, rupturing their internal organs and so on not deserving of punishment unless they die in under three days as ‘Humane’. In every Western country that is a serious crime. Good then that we don’t follow Biblical rules I think.

            And do you genuinely know so little of history to actually think that women have been treated fairly by men in the past in Britain and the rest of the Western world? Doesn’t your Bible say they are to be unequal to men and must obey them? I’m sure you know this and are just distorting the Bible to make it seem less harsh and backward.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The slave owners did things out of momentary anger and ignorance and were spared from execution. Western companies poison and kill their slaves knowingly but always get away; there is a huge difference between the OT Jews and the wealthy secular slave owners of the 21st century. You should stop being naive. Western Christendom’s women never suffered anything for all time everywhere comparing to the Non-christendom’s women. The Westerners don’t know anything about what pagan men do to women because they are never outside of their safe and civilized gentlemanly Christian bubbles.

          • Shane Egan

            So, you consider making people slaves for life, including their children, not a deliberate and cruel act? If you really are female why are you disobeying your Bible and arguing with a man? ‘Western Christendom’ did not allow women to own land, or receive an education, or vote or even deny their husbands sex on demand until a few generations ago. If those women were black this was within my lifetime. Sure it was fair – if you were a white male.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            It’s been that way in every civilization – main tribal man-oriented. Western Christendom is incomparably different in that it granted everyone charity, literacy, human rights, and freedom without other forces interfering. Western Christendom corrected itself over time by simply reading the Holy Bible and applying it, unlike all other women-abusing slave-abusing illiterate mankind.

            Ex-christian West forces Sodomy upon mankind this century, and the world is facing the gravest crisis on earth. Mankind should be thankful to God forever that the yesteryears’ slave-owning white men were not Sodomy-supporters like today. He spared mankind from the greatest chaotic grief. White missionaries gave us the copies of the Holy Bible and can fight back today.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            All civilizations only fought over petty things like the land, names, money, and women. The Christian West is superior over all because it alone fought over the decision on what is truth. The USA was its finest child. Western Christendom became Ex-christian last century and now it has become a huge Sodom. The West’s deterioration and moral collapse is a proof that the Holy Bible has been true and right all along.

          • edman

            A more ignorant statement could not be said if you tried harder. Wow Grace, you may want to pick up a history book. Were you home schooled.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are wrong. You are the one brainwashed by the liberals to hate the truth and morality, namely Christianity.

          • edman

            Truth, let’s talk about that. Please provide evidence that supports your christian beliefs. Any supporting evidence outside the bible that confirms even the life of jesus. Any supporting evidence that confirms the life after death beliefs, or that hell is a real place. It is all made up nonsense. Seculars use science to uncover facts that support reality. Science is the single most effective way of understanding the world
            and universe around us. Your reference guide to truth is in an old book written by sheep herders that did not even know where the sun went at night. Your truth is not truth, it’s superstition.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are wrong. Jesus is the Truth. John chapter 14. Western Christendom alone quested after the objective truth because of their Christian doctrines. Secularists and atheists only polluted the planet beyond recovery. Westerners should be humble before God and repent of their sins to get saved like everyone else.

          • edman

            The only reason christians are not still hunting for witches, and slavery was stopped was because christians went kicking a screaming to secual values. If it were up to christians we would be using biblical hate to run this country. Secular values in America have moved christians to accept
            morality outside the bible. Religion un checked by secular values ends up like Saudi Arabia .

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Today’s witches kill the babies inside the wombs by millions, and people just watch. Only Christians outcry for the life of the human babies. Slavery was abolished because the Christian whites taught all the colored literacy and the colored read the Holy Bible and broke free. Study US history. Secularism corrupts humanity especially children. Saudi Arabia is the closest friend to the greedy secular USA.

            Christian USA made all the nations civilized. The Saudis don’t want freedom because today’s American pervs look too mentally ill and the Westernized women look and behave only like prostitutes. They only know how to show skin and climb up to powers and ruin both the nations and children. Today’s American culture is a nightmare to all sane parents. You guys were noble and good only when you adhered Christianity. There is no sane morality apart from the Holy Bible.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            Slavery is encouraged in the bible. there are entire tracts about the proper ways a master should punish their slaves.

            Seriously, what bible are you reading that would lead you to think it was anti-slavery?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            No, the Holy Bible tells people not to become men’s slaves. The Holy Bible did not mention absense of slavery from the humanity’s world because the 1% would enslave the 99% always. Christian Americans and Christian British alone tried to free mankind and did. All others were mere merchants. Today’s young Americans don’t know the outside world and have no idea how much their Christian forefathers alone were special among mankind.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            Yeah. I think it’s you that doesn’t have a clue… you keep saying that the US was this christian nation, but can only find evidence to the contrary.

            “Christianity is the most perverse philosophy to ever have shown on mankind”

            – Thomas paine, american forefather.

            BTW, hows your essay on the national debt coming? You still haven’t explained why you think the US should sell china land simply because china hasn’t yet fulfilled their end of a financial obligation. Truly mad, this one!

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            All the Founding Fathers praised Christian religion and lived by it. They were either Christian or Christian-educated. Foxnews just reported how the US companies used the Chinese slaves to make cheaper products. It’s everyday.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            Except all the foudning fathers were not christian. Jeferson actually re-wrote the bible to exclude all miracles. does that sound like something a devout believer would do? No. You’re delusional. just like how you’re delusional about this so called chinese debt. You’re simply a liar and a bad christian.

            bad christian!

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            They were mostly Christian. Americans knew nothing apart from the good Christian education. I read their biographies and letters. Jefferson supported Christianity, too. Read all of his sayings and what He did. Christianity was America’s virtue. They all sound Christian and nothing like today’s American Sodomites. You are Non-American.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            So you’re saying you don’t believe that christ is the son of god? neither did jefferson.

            unless you are willing to state that christ is not the son of god, you can not claim that you and jefferson believed in the same religion.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Samuel Adams was one of the Founding Fathers, too. Most of Founding Fathers were Christians. Read all of them. Theist means a believer in God. America became godless since the 70’s and atheistic only this century AFTER becoming homosexual. It was a deadly mistake for the West to adandon God’s truth and its own children for the love of sexual depravity and mental illness. The West was superior only because of the only true superior religion. Ex-christian West is such a Sodom.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            Oh, so we went from all the founders being christian, to just some of them being christian? that’s convenient for you.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Not all of them were born-again but definitely all of them were Christian culturally. American Founding Fathers were the children of the Christian Britain. America had no education or conscience other than Christianity. The concepts of fairness, human rights, freedom, equality, and justice are all from the Holy Bible alone. Americans were noble and strong because they were Christian-godly, not gold-greedy. Americans would have stayed illiterate average savages on Planet Earth if they had no Christian Church.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “Jefferson supported Christianity, too. Read all of his sayings…”

            You mean sayings like these?

            “Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction
            of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned;
            yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.”

            “But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are
            twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks
            my leg.”

            “I am for freedom of religion, & against all maneuvres to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another.”

            “History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden
            people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest
            grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious
            leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.”

            “Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible
            propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them;
            and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere
            Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.”

            “Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely
            between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for
            his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government
            reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign
            reverence that act of the whole American people which declared
            that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment
            of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus
            building a wall of separation between church and State.”

            That doesn’t sound like a man who was much interested in “establishment Christianity in the land.”

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            But he also said a lot of things to support Christianity and established Christian features in the nation. Read everything about him. Jefferson was only one of many American Founding Fathers anyway. Read all others, too, such as Samuel Adams and Benjamin Franklin. Americans always thought everyone had be Christian-godly and Christian-proper. Americans changed badly after becoming homosexual at the end of last century.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “But he also said a lot of things to support Christianity”

            Like what?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Reasearch it. There are tons. He quoted the Holy Bible, too. If you haven’t read the Holy Bible, you’d have no idea how much he stole from it. Geroge Washington was Christian, too. Do you American kids learn US history at all?

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “Reasearch it. There are tons”

            So you don’t have any examples.

            “He quoted the Holy Bible, too.”

            Ever heard of the “Jefferson Bible”?

            “The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, commonly referred to as the Jefferson Bible, was a book constructed by Thomas Jefferson in the later years of his life by cutting and pasting with a razor and glue numerous sections from the New Testament as extractions of the doctrine of Jesus. Jefferson’s condensed composition is especially notable for its exclusion of all miracles by Jesus and most mentions of the supernatural, including sections of the four gospels that contain the Resurrection and most other miracles, and passages that portray Jesus as divine” (Wikipedia)

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Not every American was born-again, but all Americans were influenced by the Holy Bible positively. It is only the recent decades – last 30 years – that some Americans have become militantly hatful against Christianity and the Holy Bible and blaspheming like madmen. Why do you hate your own parents and your own legacy so badly? No other races or nationals are that way. Only the secular Western whites. Don’t you know that parent-bashers only gain comtempt? Ex-christian West has only immorality as its core value and is despicable. Fear God and honor your father and your mother, and live like humans. Exodus 20.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            ” only the recent decades – last 30 years – that some Americans have become militantly hatful against Christianity and the Holy Bible and blaspheming like madmen.”

            That’s totally wrong. I could find all kinds of examples to contradict that.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Talk about the amount and the intensity. Something bad happened in the Western Christendom since the 1970’s or 80’s. Two great wars did not fix the evil of secular humanism. Rich well-fed people should not suffer from boredom. Their runnning after mental illness is so typical. I think childlessness is a divine punishment upon the West and its mental slave nations. You still have time for repentance. If you want Earthlings to respect Americans, stop bashing your Christian forefathers, because they were better humans and non-freeloaders. .

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “Two great wars did not fix the evil of secular humanism”

            That wasn’t why the wars were fought in the first place. Learn some history.

            “I think childlessness is a divine punishment upon the West and its mental slave nations.”

            What? That doesn’t even make sense. Unless you’re talking about infertile people, childlessness is largely by choice.

            “stop bashing your Christian forefathers”

            When have I done that? When has anyone done that in this conversation, in fact? I’ve just tried to point out that they weren’t as Christian as you think, at least by the way a lot of people would define that today.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            I think the haughty powerful West and other Super Powers were punished in the two great wars and got re-organized. Germany became Nazis because of the blasphemous theology and godlessness and humanism. Childlessness is the #1 grief among the rich secular nations today. I don’t understand the liberal white people who rant homosexuality and abortion, even for this reason. They are losing their ID and nationhood unless they are able to control the mass like in the former South Africa. That’s why the world should never submit to the West’s Sodomy now. It’s altogether self-destructive and so slave-like to the immoral rich.

            Mankind have no reason to follow the Non-christian West. The West was superior and great only when it was Christian. Western Europeans bash the godlier Americans and Americans bash their godlier forefathers. You Western white people should stop doing it altogether. You guys are such a well-fed generation; those who read the Holy Bible alone don’t get deceived by today’s West’s false pretence. If the Western whites were truly sorry for any of the past wrongs, they would never have forced Sodomy upon the Christians.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “I think the haughty powerful West and other Super Powers were punished in the two great wars and got re-organized”

            Well, think again. The West (aka Allied Powers/Allies) WON those wars. They were hardly “re-organized.”

            “Childlessness is the #1 grief among the rich secular nations today.”

            I still don’t understand what you’re talking about there. If you mean infertility, according to what I just looked up, infertility rates in the US have actually declined over the last 30 years. Otherwise, childlessness is BY CHOICE, so you can’t call it a “plague” or a “divine punishment”….especially the latter. Is God “punishing” people by making them not want to have children? What sense does that make?

            “I’d rather endure racism…”

            Well, good then. Since you like to dish it out, you might as well be ready to take it.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            WW2 dismantled the British Empire and the Superpowers concluded how horrible racism is by seeing what Nazis did to mankind. Many reigions were granted independence including Israel; it truly re-shaped the world.

            Childlessness is happening as a phenomenon; I really don’t understand why you are not concerned. Even if the planet freezes or burns, godly children will find a way out. But no descendants means a global Balkan. Commoners like us have no means of protection, but at least we can live as free people by following God. God does His justice in the world. Every Earthling is a racist one way or another, Rhye. Stop being naive. Moderners are only better hiding it.

            Do you know how ridiculous it is to have feared racism from the Western whites and then have to concern the attacks from the equality-ranting Westerners for refusing to submit to their abnormal immorality? You guys must stop joking. The West has no morality apart from Christianity. You guys must also stop attacking your racist normal ancestors who were incmnparably better than you. Anyone is better than pervs.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “Childlessness is happening as a phenomenon; I really don’t understand why you are not concerned”

            Why should I be? So people who don’t want children aren’t having them. So? Why are you so concerned about it? Since you seem to think modern American white people are evil, shouldn’t you be happy about that?

            “The West has no morality apart from Christianity.”

            No. Morality does not require religion.

            “You guys must also stop attacking your racist normal ancestors who were inconparably better than you. Anyone is better than pervs.”

            Wow. You really think people owning other people as slaves is “incomparably better” than what two consenting adults do with each other?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You will cease to be a tribe if too many among you are childless, so you must get concerned. Are you one of the young liberal men living in their mothers’ basements? You guys should grow up and throw away the stupid games and do something more constructive to benefit mankind including your own tribe, as every decent man should.

            Yes, it’s nice that the Sodomy-supporters have a trend to go extinct from earth naturally, but they won’t go without ruining children so the battles will continue. Can’t you guys just leave the Christians alone in your land? Today’s secular West is a mega proof of what men knew all along. Pre-christian is a demon-worshipping barbarism and Ex-christian is being a Sodom. The latter is far more destructive to mankind.

            You liberal Westerners attack Christianity this century because you’ve become immoral. Immorality is the only reason the secular Westerners hate the Christianity. Two consenting adults can commit suicide and drug abuses and Satanism. Consent means nothing in deciding what is right and wrong. Freedom alone, without Christian morality, is a fool’s gold and just a slavery to villains. Men need other virtues, too.

            Slave-owning for manual labor has been norm for all mankind until the white Christian missionaries abolished it. The West’s Sodomic notion is more evil than having slaves. Sodom corrupts children into sex slaves as happening today. Rhye, God will judge the world soon. You must repent of your sin to get saved. Read the Gospel of John.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “Tribe”??? By that, do you mean “race”?? If so, I’ve never considered my race a big part of my identity, since it’s basically just an accident of my birth, and nothing that I had anything to do with. I’d rather be identified by my accomplishments, and interests, and such. That’s what makes me me, not the color of my skin or where I am from.

            “Yes, it’s nice that the Sodomy-supporters have a trend to go extinct from the earth naturally”

            Try again. Homosexuality has existed throughout history. Straight people continue to have homosexual children.

            “Can’t you guys just leave the Christians alone in your land?”

            If they’d leave non-Christians and Christians who have different ideas than them alone.

            “God will judge the world soon.”

            People have been saying that for oh…almost a few thousand years now.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You don’t care about your own tribe that’s why you don’t care about the USA and the safety of its women and children. Yes, homosexuality has been with mankind, but it’s only the Ex-christian secular West that demands mankind to acknowledge the sinful living as a mock marriage. No other civilization was that insane or bored.

            Anything goes in the De-christianized West if a person outcries discrimination. There is no other virtue for the Post-christian. Sodomy-supporters force Christians to serve sinful ceremonies and teach children immorality in public schools. Empires are all gone. Americans have only a very short history you don’t know the USA is the next. Read Isaiah chapter 40 to know your tribe’s fate.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “you don’t care about the USA and the safety of its women and children”

            The safety of women and children is not threatened by the legality of same-sex marriage.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Legality of the same-sex “marriage” makes Christians unable to express God’s truth in public and therefore is a violation against human rights. LIberal men don’t care about women and children’s safety in general, not just for mixing men and women’s women’s restrooms. .

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Wrong again. People can express whatever they think the truth is, they just don’t get to break the law to accommodate that opinion.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The Holy Bible alone is the truth. No other. All other thoughts contain defects and abuses. The West is always and for-ever slave-owners and slaves as long as it opposes the Holy Bible. By racism yesterday and by Sodomy today. The latter is incomparably worse.

          • edman

            It is sad people think like you. Your bible is anything but moral, your god in the bible was a jealous, killer. Religion unchecked is violent, and the cause of every war. Religion is a shit stain on humanity.

          • edman

            If you care to stop abortions, then may I recommend you support universal healthcare, comprehensive sex education in schools, and access to contraceptives.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            “Pay your debt to China.”

            so not only do you not understand U.S. law, you’re pretty oblivious to how its trade deals work as well? Color me surprised! I’m guessing you’re south korean, eh?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Bad descendants call their forefathers as Saudi Arabia though their ancestors were Christian fundies. Why won’t you give up your territory to China as the debt payment? The right thing to do.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            Payment of what debt? you’re only demonstrating you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You Americans need Christianity to be good. Non-christian ones are just greedy and meaningless and force depravity.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            so you have no answer then? just more useless platitudes? this is why your religion is in decline… you offer nothing but half truths and false alternatives.

            go on, explain to us all what you think is owed to china by this so called “debt.”

            might wanna pray before you do though, because only divine inspiration can save you from having your ignorance exposed in this matter.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Christianity is increasing except in the Sodomic childless West. Research the data; USA uses the Chinese like slaves and thinks she can get away with all the free labors. Stop misusing the words “divine inspiration.” Read the Holy Bble and repent of your sin to get saved. John chapter 3.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            so once again, more useless platitudes? you can’t back up your arguments with ANYTHING? you can’t answer a single one of my questions?

            this is why your religion is obsolete. it is no longer informative to an educated society.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            It’s your national debt. Learn about it. The land belongs to God.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            No, you should learn about it. You have demonstrated you have absolutely no clue how a trade deficit works.

            go ahead. explain to us how this supposed debt to china works.

            this should be hilarious.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Every nation has huge debts. No worries. Sell the land and be debt-free. …Don’t expect peace until the Lord Jesus returns. You still have time to repent. Read John chapter 3.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            It’s ok if you don’t understand how foreign trade works. no worries. Just educate yourself and you’ll be ignorance free!

            seriously. educate yourself about the topic. you’ll find that the US doesn’t actually owe the chinese anything. only someone very ignorant(or very stupid) would think that the US could sell land to settle a trade deficit.

            Go ahead. explain to us all how the US is indebted to china.

          • Bob Johnson

            Basically your right, however, the Chinese have bought about $300 billion in US property and have invested in many US companies. They have to do something (in US dollars) with all that cash we send them in exchange for products they send us.

          • Robert_Loblaw

            In fact there are only three things the chinese can do with their account at the federal reserve:

            Buy products from us companies.
            Buy financial instruments like bonds.
            Exchange it for another currency.

            at no point is any actual value withdrawn, just exchanged, yet these idiots talk about it as though china is going to come foreclose on their homes at any minute. It’s a fake dilemma with numerous false solutions being marketed by various snake oil salesmen in congress.

          • No one gets saved, Grace. We all die, then our bodies rot. End of story. This will happen to me and it will happen to you. Before then, I will lead a full life. You will go into oblivion after wasting your life on a particularly childish delusion.

          • Jason Todd

            And if you are wrong?

          • edman

            Grace, you are very brainwashed. There is not god, your bible is a book of lies, and it is controlling your ability to use critical thinking. I wish you luck removing that garbage from your brain.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Unbelieving Westerners are only nudist immoral so I don’t trust what they say. Westerners are good when they are Christian. You guys should dress up properly in public places. You must repent of your evil unbelief. Psalm 14.

      • Croquet_Player

        Actually, North Korea is much more like a theocracy, where the “Dear Leader” is worshiped as a god. Perhaps one of the best things about the United States is we are entirely free to think what we like. I know you admire America, and that’s very nice, but you seem to consistently overlook this key, fundamental aspect of American freedom.

        • Grace Kim Kwon

          North Korea is atheism’s utopia. You Western atheists should all immigrate to North Korea and leave Christian West alone.

          • Croquet_Player

            Actually, it appears theists would fare far better in North Korea, as they are not averse to being told what to think and believe. Americans have the right to think as they please, a fact you continue to willfully ignore in your distorted vision of America.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            C-P, you have no idea. North Korean dictators and the Western atheists are the same; both of them deny the existence of God and demand the filthy worship of humans. North Koreans are hostages. Americans are not free; they are brainwashed by the liberals and programmed to adhere to Sodomy unconditionally. Only the Christian Americans have true freedom within, regardless of the culture. The West is bad when they ban what the Holy Bible teaches. When will you get a lesson from your own history? It’s been 500 years, longer than America’s history. Living out the Holy Bible is freedom. Read John chapter 8.

          • Croquet_Player

            No, atheists do not “demand the filthy worship of humans”. You’re flat out wrong there. And few atheists “deny the existence of God”. They simply don’t see any evidence, for any deities. It’s not the same thing. Your view of America, and atheists, is so completely distorted by your own zealotry it’s astonishing. You clearly have absolutely no clue what you’re talking about.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You Westerners know nothing about atheism’s reign because you’ve been always nurtured and well-fed by the most gentle Christian churches. Eastern atheists massacre the Christians and unborns and demand worship of humans; anyone who does not comply gets jailed or killed. Western ones massacre the unborns and demand everyone to submit to sexual depravity and oppress the Christians for not-supporting Sodomy. Atheists are the same tyrannical everywhere.

          • Croquet_Player

            So you keep saying, but repeating things endlessly doesn’t make them true. At some point you might want to try to come to grips with the fact that America has freedom of religion, which means that Americans all have the constitutional right to worship in any faith they choose, or no faith. Ignoring that fact gives you a fundamental misunderstanding of the United States and its people.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            America doesn’t have freedom. Everyone has to support Sodomy there. That’s not freedom but a suppression by immorality. Godless liberals make peaceful co-existence impossible by oppressing the Christians. Every culture has deadly defects and today’s West must get fixed by the Church to be free. It’s the Muslims vs. Western Sodom vs. the Church today.

          • Croquet_Player

            You are demonstrating your total ignorance of America. Saying “Everyone has to support Sodomy there” is simply ridiculous. It’s patently untrue. Over 70% of the population are Christians. The president is Christian (or claims to be). Over 90 percent of the senate and congress are Christians. There are Christian churches everywhere, millions of them, all over the country. People are free to worship exactly as they please. That’s not “oppression’ by any means, and suggesting it is is ludicrous.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            But Western culture lists Sodomy as a protected species. Sodomy-supporters are not practically Christian but mere politicians. Politicians have to look nice to everyone. The West needs the dominion by the Christianity to be completely free and fair and safe to all.

          • Croquet_Player

            “Sodomy” is not a “species”, and people are entirely free to think whatever they like about marriage equality. You views do not comport with reality.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Sin has no equality with anything. The West promotes abnormal depraved immorality by forcing Sodomy upon mankind. Your culture needs a fix by the Church.

          • Croquet_Player

            Yes, you keep saying this, over, and over, and over again. But again, your views are not based in reality.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The Western culture must stop the violation of human rights. Peaceful homophobia is a human right. NO ONE has to submit to Western Sodomy. Everyone must be able to reject same-sex “marriage” as a sin. You guys are insane to push Sodomy and ruin mankind’s morality on Planet Earth.

          • Croquet_Player

            People can be as homophobic as they like. But gay Americans are tax paying citizens just like everyone else, and are entitled to the identical rights and protections as all other Americans. That’s what America is all about. And people who don’t like it are perfectly welcome to say so, but if they want to change it they’ll have to change the constitution first.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are wrong. America never meant to become Sodomic immoral but Christian-godly and happy. There is no reconciliation among mankind until the powerful West stops demanding mankind Sodomy. Freedom alone is an abysmal mental illness without morality; the secular West has proven the fact.

            Religious freedom and legalization of same-sex “marriage” / transgenderism cannot co-exist. America may fully submit to Sodom eventually, but then the things to come will come upon the earth. We are seeing bad signs already. You should know that Sodom gets destroyed by fire. You should repent of your sin instead of clinging to depravity and to ask Jesus for forgiveness of sins to get saved. .

          • Croquet_Player

            Grace, you keep saying the same thing over, and over, and over again. It doesn’t make it true. I understand you don’t approve of homosexuality, and you’re welcome to that opinion, but gay Americans have the identical rights as every other American, and that’s a fact you’re simply going to have to come to grips with.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are wrong. Gay Americans should be categorized and given the same rights with the pedophiles, incest-offenders, polygamists, rapists, prostitutes, and the cannibals. America is still in a process of rising and falling, but the Holy Bible is eternal truth. Abortion is murder and homosexuality/transgenderism is a sin. The future people will talk how American Sodom destroyed itself if the world continues. Jude 1.

          • Croquet_Player

            You’re welcome to your religious opinions about gay people, and everything else. But that’s not how we handle legal matters here in the United States.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The Western culture including the USA is wrong regarding human rights this century. Legalization of the same-sex “marriage” and transgenderism brings religious persecutions worldwide. People should be able to reject to support immorality. Western whites should stop putting the colored peoples and sexually depraved people together in the same category. A disgusting racism and a crime against humanity.

          • Croquet_Player

            Grace, as I said, you’re welcome to your religious opinions, but you clearly have no idea how the Constitution works. Kind of a shame really, I know you hold America in high esteem, and that’s very kind of you.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Of course. America rescued my fatherland and mother countries. I thank God for life, and I’m grateful to Americans, the missionaries and soldiers who sacrificed themselves to rescue even the far-away peoples. Americans became weird by listing homosexuality and transgenderism something to be protected unconditionally as if those are skin colors or birth genders. Enough of bad American comedy. The world has real sufferings. USA should stop being bored and become lawful again. This is a point that cannot be yielded because we will lose religious freedom and morality’s rights to exist in America.

          • Croquet_Player

            So you keep saying. Over, and over, and over. You’re welcome to keep restating your religious opinions all you like, but I’m bowing out. Bye!

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You need Jesus to be saved. Please repent of your sin and return to God. Otherwise, your tribe will enslave mankind again, this time with Sodomy instead of racism. Let such evil discontinue. As a colored, I don’t want to be discriminated by the Western whites for opposing their mentally-ill Sodomic inclinations. Do something for sanity and religious freedom and justice in your land for me.

  • Ray Nix

    What a joke these atheist are, they are Hitler like, in trying to take over. If you don’t believe in a God then why are you so demanding to pray, are you going to pray to yourself in the name of yourself, you atheist are so consumed with your evil self righteous agenda you can’t see the forest for the trees.

    • Colin Rafferty

      The issue here is that atheists are not allowed to speak. That’s called discrimination based on religion.

      • Guzzman

        I agree – Numerous secular invocations have been given before legislative bodies throughout the country since the Town of Greece v. Galloway decision.

        One reason the Supreme Court in Town of Greece v. Galloway upheld legislative prayer invocations was because the town “maintained that a minister or layperson of any persuasion, including an ATHEIST, could give the invocation.”

      • MyLady1

        Gee, kids can’t speak about God in school, some can’t pray before games, or meetings, or a lot of other places. It’s been that way for a long time. We had prayer and Pledge of Allegiance in school. I didn’t pray and I didn’t care if others did. Once they took those away school became shooting galleries, bullying, pregnancies, addicts, pedophiles, beatings……… If a person believes in God/a god and behaves and doesn’t do those things, I’m glad! It doesn’t hurt me.

        • Colin Rafferty

          You are completely wrong. You are allowed to do all those things.

          Kids can certainly discuss God in school. They can’t force other kids to listen.

          Kids can pray before games. Teachers can’t lead them. And they can’t force other kids to pray.

          Do you have some examples of how kids are not allowed to pray? I mean, the kind where it’s not a government employee leading the prayer.

          But let’s talk about prayer in school, since you think it’s a good thing. How would you feel if your children’s school had all the kids face Mecca to pray to Allah before class started? Do you think that would help things?

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Yep. The crime rate in Saudi Arabia is very, very low! But in Honduras it’s very high. I wonder what that says religion-wise.

          • Colin Rafferty

            What are you talking about?

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Honduras, an almost exclusively Christian country, is the murder capital of the world. Saudi Arabia, possibly the strictest Muslim country in the world, is very safe. Result: the Muslims have it right!

          • Colin Rafferty

            So what? What does any of this have to do with the fact that no one is stopping people from praying in the US?

          • Ambulance Chaser

            It doesn’t, it’s just a side conversation.

        • Croquet_Player

          “Gee, kids can’t speak about God in school, some can’t pray before games, or meetings, or a lot of other places.” I’m afraid you’ve been misinformed. Students may pray in school, they may bring religious materials from home, they may pray alone or in groups, and may discuss religion with their fellow students. That is their constitutional right. They may not disrupt class, and adults may not lead student prayers.

    • Shane Egan

      So many religious people come across as intolerant and ignorant, angry and self-important. They genuinely believe they have a special personal relationship with the creator of the universe and that said being is concerned about what they do with their genitals and what foods they eat. That seems so primitive to me – so full of magical thinking and so divorced from reality that it would be laughable if so many people were not being actively harmed by those believers on a daily basis.

      • MyLady1

        Maybe if less people did all the stuff they do with their genitals we’d have less babies alive/dead, less diseases, less arguments, and cheating and broken homes and hurt kids……. God didn’t say people couldn’t eat food, they just shouldn’t be a glutton, which is very good advice. There’s a lot of good advice in the Bible, people just hate it because God said it. Thou shall not murder is a good one, too. Do unto others…. is in the Bible, just in different words. Love thy neighbor, and tons more. Things they are good whether you believe in any god at all. It’s morals and common sense. People are just totally against it all because it’s GOD. And now our world is an evil mess. Is that like cutting off your nose to spite your face, or something like that, shooting yourself in the leg. Whatever, it’s just dumb. If a god hating person made a nice, good law, I’d be glad. I wouldn’t want to reverse it just because they hate/don’t believe in God. Ther’s good and bad, nice and mean, with or without a god. People can’t see that anymore. They assume if your against the biggies, abortion & homosexuality, you are a Christian! Surely, there are some atheist, and other non “god” believing people who think that is bad/wrong. People just want to attack God and anyone who believes in Him, period. They make bad laws so they can say, “It’s legal”, like that makes it good, decent, moral…… Thinking now days is, if you aren’t doing all this bad there is something wrong with YOU, especially if you believe in God. What’s wrong with being good?! Oh, all the bad stuff is now good today and the good is now bad. Wow! God, or whomever wrote the Bible, called that one a long, long time ago.
        “Isaiah 5:20King James Version (KJV) 20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!” So that part of it is true.

        • TheKingOfRhye

          “They assume if your against the biggies, abortion & homosexuality, you are a Christian! Surely, there are some atheist, and other non “god” believing people who think that is bad/wrong”

          Yes, there are some non-believers who think that way, but they’re the exception to the rule. Few and far between. I’ve found that if someone has objections to homosexuality and/or abortion, it’s a pretty safe bet that those are at least partly rooted in their religion. And at least in this part of the world, it’s generally a safe bet that that religion is Christianity.

    • Johndoe

      What exactly is the evil agenda of atheists?

      • Tangent002

        Get up
        The “Three Ss”
        Coffee
        Go to work
        Lunch
        Return to work
        Gym
        Go home
        Dinner
        TV
        Walk dog
        Bed time

        On weekends, agenda varies.

  • Guzzman

    The PA House of Representatives said a guest chaplain must be ordained and invoke a higher power to meet the criteria for giving an invocation. But they are wrong. Numerous secular invocations have been given before legislative bodies throughout the country since the Town of Greece v. Galloway decision.

    One reason the Supreme Court in Town of Greece v. Galloway upheld legislative prayer invocations was because the town “maintained that a minister or layperson of any persuasion, including an ATHEIST, could give the invocation.”

    What makes the PA House of Representatives think they can discriminate against their non-religious, taxpaying citizens?

    • zeddicuskotor

      Because there are Christians in this country that hate America and seek its destruction. The sooner we’re open about this and how there are literally millions of traitors in this country, the quicker we can get to solving this.

  • InTheChurch

    Invocation means: the action of invoking something or someone for assistance or as an authority

    Atheists can not give an invocation, it’s right there in the definition. So what will an atheist give instead? Can’t call it an invocation.

    • TheKingOfRhye

      I like this definition I just found from the website of The Humanist Society:

      “In a way, the concept of a secular invocation is quite simple: It is
      essentially a short speech that calls upon the audience’s shared human
      values for assistance and authority in their public discourse. Unlike a
      traditional invocation, a secular invocation does not call upon a
      supernatural entity as a guide. It redirects our attention away from
      those supernatural entities towards those common human values that we do
      in fact share for guidance. It emphasizes the bounds within which our
      public discourse should be held, without disenfranchising certain
      groups. It reminds us of what is important and of our responsibilities
      to each other and the world around us. In a sense it is calling upon all
      those involved to exercise their humanity in a way that is dignified
      while allowing the same for others.”

      • InTheChurch

        Not bad. The only difference is we look to God and they look to humankind. I might be ignorant, but it’s still invoking something. Atheist don’t believe in that something, actually nothing outside of themselves. That is how a person/atheist explained it to me. So it still keeps to the definition.

    • Robert_Loblaw

      how does that definition exclude atheists? By printing the definition you are invoking the dictionary as an authority. no god required. are you saying that atheists can’t also cite the dictionary?

      • InTheChurch

        Do you understand the definition?

  • glenbo

    Wait…didn’t someone declare that Atheism is a religion?

    • Bob Peterson

      Here is the thing Amos you have said the same thing over and over again. You are supposed to shake the dust off your feet and move on. They said it was a speech not a prayer. You won don’t keep giving them time to talk the same stuff over and over again. I was healed of grand mal epilepsy and delivered from nicotine addiction instantly in the name of Jesus but how can I pass that info onto an unbeliever that can not believe in the concept? I can’t. He has to want to believe, Pray for these people or tell them something different but not the same thing over and over again, It makes you sound like them, You really have no way of proving what you believe to them in a way they can understand any more than I can prove I was healed of which by the way I physically felt leave my body. Unbelief is unbelief. Take care and GOD bless each and every one of you whether you believe or not, BOB.

      • glenbo

        OK.

  • Tannim

    It’s very simple: no prayers before any government event, period. Government is immoral and evil by definition, and even The Christ, per your bible, advocates for SOCAS.

  • strate8

    I,once was a “brown bagger” on skid row. I was down for the count ! I remembered a guy telling me to ASK Jesus for a way out of my misery. I,finally,did,just that ! Today,I’m here on a computer,sharing my past life with all of you,out there ! I believe that we have to Hurt bad enough,before we can get honest enough to simply ASK for help. That man helped turn my LIGHT back on ! I’m very grateful to him. To the atheists,I say what Jesus said to his accusers,”Father,forgive them,for they know not what they do”.

  • Ray Sampson

    So….Just who do the propose to pray to? If they want to make a statement, it’s not a prayer. It’s simply a statement.

  • Michelle Kuiper

    All human beings can practice compassion, kindness, and they also strive to be authentic and heard. This is their government too! If YOU may speak freely and claim a Christian nation under God’s plan so too should nonbelievers/atheists. We are a democracy. Religion and state are separate things for a reason – ( Fact vs belief and faith) and they too should have the same rights as citizens of this nation.

    • Michelle Kuiper

      As a thinking, compassionate person and member of an interfaith council, I understand and respect peoples’ strong reliance on all faiths. They all believe fervently and it works for them. It gives their lives meaning. I am an agnostic – I accept that my knowledge of facts and my hope for the things I believe in are in conflict and I do not have a certainty of faith – I do not KNOW anything! I have friends/family, who are compassionate, loving, intelligent people and are atheists. I am not there yet but I respect their voice in the conversation. As should we all. I do not believe it is for mocking. Acceptance is a radical, difficult pursuit for both sides – for all human beings. Love is the only thing we can universally pursue and many on both sides have fallen short.

  • DennisLurvey

    1774 was before we were a country with laws. Our country didn’t begin legally till our constitution was ratified in 1789. The legislative prayers were called for from the time of the ratification of the constitution and before that of the bill of rights in 1791. The establishment clause would have prevented the prayers.
    Prayers are a ritual, a ceremony, that a group of people have to put them all on the same page religiously. The prayer can’t be to god, because god already has a plan for us and asking him to change it for some silly reason is preposterous.
    Since christian prayers go to a deaf god, as would whatever a non believer says, there is no difference. Do you think asking god for a new car or money and saying ‘in jesus name’ after it makes god alter his plan for you, give you more money? Do you think a new car will appear on your driveway if you just ask nicely? Has it ever happened to anyone?
    Atheists have given short statements before legislators all over our country, and in the Pennsylvania senate regularly. They are a brief statement of good will and generosity and leave most people uplifted and anxious to get the party started. It should be open to everyone.

    This same case is ongoing in the federal house and senate now.

  • Betty “Hey” NotReally

    Who are they praying to?

  • Intelligal

    Athiests are a disgrace to human intellect-they think they know what is correct, they are fools is all these people are-causing contention and evil in our world- today. They are to be forgiven and blessed, as they do not know the “Truth”-but, they will when they die-Period!

  • J. Ernst

    LMAO….this action is meaningless.
    I was sworn in at a Pinellas County FL court with a group such that we all “Swore to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.” PERIOD… No more, “So help me GOD.” And was then slammed by a lesbian judge who enabled a lesbian petitioner.
    So what else is new?
    Until younger people see through this ruse and fraud, we will remain HERE in a nation that:supports rabbinical law,
    and or, will soon be kowtowing 5 times a day to allah,
    and will be expecting king and queenship’s to continue inundating OUR national identity. All for the sake of _________________________you fill in the blank.

  • Barbara Ervin

    Why is it that some people are on this earh for the sole purpose of creating unrest? Live and let live for crying out loud!

  • Carolann Enkhaus

    if atheists don t believe in a god….who exactly do they pray to?

  • danielistical

    Satanic Prayer Will Open Florida Town Council Meeting If Chaz Stevens Has His Way
    The Huffington Post | by Yasmine Hafiz Posted: 05/09/2014
    I just want equal billing. We allow various religious nutjobs to give a prayer. They pray to Jesus who is make-believe, god who is make-believe, why not Satan who is make-believe? Why discriminate against one make-believe god over another? Satan and I are being circumvented. The city of Deerfield Beach has once again declared war on religion — and this time it’s Satanism. Just three days after the Supreme Court ruled that sectarian legislative prayer was constitutional in Greece v. Galloway, a man in Deerfield Beach, Florida, requested to open a session of the town council or the Florida State Senate with a Satanic prayer,
    reason why conditioning minor children into and superstitious/religious belief should be a felony. It is child abuse and destroys ability to think critically for life.

  • beonimagin

    I Realize atheists has no Belief in God of who they call a skydaddy. Well that is their Choice and no way will I deny them of their Choice. But the Choice of those who do Believe in God should be upheld as the FREEDOM OF BELIEF and should not be mocked because someone can Think Important. The best way I can see to end this idiotic of what those who push on to others with what they Think Important is for the TRUTH to happen. In the Bible in Revelation 12:9 it tells of the devil being thrown out of Heaven down to Earth. Of course you don’t have to Believe that but it is a sure way of finding out the TRUTH. Is the devil on Earth or not? If the devil is on Earth then is the Bible TRUE of not? If the Bible is True then there must be God. If the Bible is not True then there would not even be a devil because the Bible is what tells of a devil and without the Bible there would be no Idea a devil exist. The Bible also tells of Evil and of Good so that can be broken down as well. But if a devil does exist then it should be Realized that is the reason for having evil in this world. So the thing is it needs to prove that the devil does exist on Earth since he is not considered a skydaddy by non-believers. Of what is very simple to do. Anton LeVey of who wrote the demonic bible of what can be purchase in a bookstore in the occult section started the church of Satan in the 1960’s. All one has to do is go to a church of Satan and ask that you would like a visit or to meet with one who is known in the church of Satan as Master Yon. Once you meet with who is known as Master Yon in the church of Satan you will find out the TRUTH if there really is a devil. Now if that is too hard for a non-believer to do an easier way is go to a bookstore and buy that demonic bible and read it and after reading it take that pledge in it giving yourself to Satan. A non-believer should not worry about that because of what they ThinK They Know. Now if nothing happens in giving one self to Satan then you will Know that there cannot be a Satan. Now of course if something does happen one needs to look at the positive outlook of it as it was their Choice. Myself I don’t ever Believe to deny anyone of their Choice and hope they will Enjoy it as the best they can ever have. Now all Non-believers since they Think They Know something should want to find out the TRUTH before demanding with all different kinds of CONTROLLING what is Important for them. So now this bickering about God and No God can easily be solved and all a non-believer has to do is want to meet Satan that is on Earth. Believers in God will not want that since Satan is Evil and the father of Lies, so it really is the Nonbelievers that has to bring it to the factor of KNOWING one way or the other. And of course the Non-believers should do it Proudly as a great accomplishment. Of course if we never hear from you again, well that sure would prove that there is a devil. Oh yes I sure do hope that those Non-believers will be so much Happy being the guest of that ritual that will be perform over them. Gee I hate Cowards who claim they Know something but are Too Afraid to Prove It.

    • TheKingOfRhye

      “Anton LeVey of who wrote the demonic bible”

      Obviously you’ve never read it, because you spelled his name wrong, you got the title of the book wrong, and there is no “pledge in it giving yourself to Satan.” LaVeyan Satanists don’t even believe in Satan, as a literal being that exists.

      Oh, and as far as I can tell, “Master Yon” is from World of Warcraft.

  • Freedom Fighter

    Go get em!