Tennessee School District Temporarily Halts Bible Club Following Complaint From Atheist Activist Group

MEMPHIS, Tenn. — Officials at a school district in Tennessee have temporarily shut down a Bible club at a local elementary school following a complaint from a prominent atheist activist group.

The Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) recently sent a letter to Bartlett City Schools after learning that a Bible club was being held on the premises of Altruria Elementary School. The club, which meets before the start of school, is voluntary and is attended by a number of first and second graders.

“This club, which functions as a Bible class, is unconstitutional because public schools may not provide religious instruction,” FFRF asserted in its correspondence.

It asked that the matter be investigated to ensure that teachers and/or other school staff are not participating in the religious instruction.

While the district has not commented on FFRF’s assertions that the club violates the U.S. Constitution, it temporarily shut down the gathering after finding that it did not have an outside sponsor.

“Per our understanding, religious clubs at elementary schools must be sponsored by an outside group. To our knowledge, the K-2 Bible Club at Altruria was not,” it said in a statement.

According to LocalMemphis.com, there is also a Bible club for third through fifth graders at the school, and that group has been allowed to continue to meet since it has an outside sponsor.

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FFRF cheered word that the Bible club had been halted, stating that the decision was “a victory not only for reason and the law but for the inviolable right of a captive audience of first and second-grade students to be free from indoctrination in a public school setting.”

However, the district also noted that the club isn’t gone for good, but rather will be reestablished once an outside sponsor is obtained.

“While this club has been postponed, we are working with the school to ensure the proper steps are taken to allow this club in the 2017-2018 school year,” it said.

In the 1990 Supreme Court case of Board of Education of Westside Community Schools v. Mergens, the nine justices of the nation’s highest court ruled 8-1 in favor of a student group that had been denied the establishment of a Christian club at their public school. The court pointed to the federal Equal Access Act, noting that if a school opens up a limited public forum, it cannot deny some groups the right to form simply because of their purpose.

“Thus, even if a public secondary school allows only one ‘non-curriculum related student group’ to meet, the Act’s obligations are triggered and the school may not deny other clubs, on the basis of the content of their speech, equal access to meet on school premises during ‘non-instructional’ time,” it wrote.

The 2001 case of Good News Club et al. v. Milford Central School, which centered on a Christian club for elementary school children, likewise held that “[w]hen Milford [Central School] denied the Good News Club access to the school’s limited public forum on the ground that the club was religious in nature, it discriminated against the club because of its religious viewpoint in violation of the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment.”


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  • bowie1

    Captive audience? Not it they are there on a voluntary basis before school starts.

    • TheLastHonestLawyer

      How many 6 or 7 year olds do you know who set their own daily schedules. If they are in that room, it’s because mom and dad put them there, and if the club was being run by school staff, there was implied authority involved.

      • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

        Of course parents have authority over their children. What kind of a nutcase are you to want to take that away?

        • Colin Rafferty

          It’s the teachers. They have authority, and they should not be giving your children religious lessons.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            If the parents are okay with that, there’s no problem.

          • Colin Rafferty

            The problem is the other children will feel pressured to be with their own teachers. This is pretty clear law. That’s why it’s allowed for an outside group to do it, but not for a teacher.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            No they won’t. This is an early morning thing outside of class.

          • Colin Rafferty

            It’s in the school. It’s run by teachers. It’s illegal.

            And in fact, the reason that it is illegal, is because the courts found that the peer pressure is exactly the problem.

            Look at it this way, your first grader shows up five minutes before school starts and sees a bunch of her classmates in a class with her teacher. Why isn’t she able to be in the class with the rest of her classmates? She wants to learn about the Koran also.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            No, It actually isn’t, and parents are okay with it. Leave other people’s kids alone. Worry about your own.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            My kids are great. one is an avionics repairman onboard the USS USS John C. Stennis, one is looking forward to her first year at UCLA, and my wife swears that our youngest will someday emerge from his room and speak in complete sentences.

            So, in your world, breaking the law is fine if people are “okay” with it? That’s not how it works, as I had to explain to far too any of my clients over the years.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            But what law is it breaking? And if it’s an unjust law, shouldn’t it be broken?

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            Oh, good grief. It is a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. The school, by running a religious Bible study class, is endorsing Christianity.

            The fix, which the school district is already working on, is to get an outside group to sponsor the club.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            They’re violating the establishment clause of the first amendment by prohibiting the free exercise of religion.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            Nonsense. Read the article, the district has suspended the club until an outside sponsor. No one is preventing these kids from praying alone, with friends, or with family. They are not prevented from attending religious services. There is no violation of their right to practice their faith.

            However, in this one extremely narrow slice of their lives, there is a violation. Because the school simply cannot be seen to be in the position of endorsing a particular religion. Hence the need for outside sponsors to run the religious clubs.

            This also means that if a couple of sixth graders decide to join The Satanic Temple, and can find a sponsor, the school has to allow that club to meet on school grounds.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            I read the article. There is nothing in the Constitution that requires a sponsor for this Bible club. This is just more posturing and blustering from the left.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            Oh, for the love of Halford.

            The Constitution forbids government establishment of religion. There are a stack of Supreme Court decisions on this issue that would choke a goat. But let’s start with McCollum v. Board of Education District 71 (1948). The court found that the “use of tax-supported property for religious instruction and the close cooperation between the school authorities and the religious council violated the Establishment clause.”

            Need another? Engel v. Vitale (1962) The Nine Wise Men used this occasion to make it clear that teacher-led prayer and religious instruction violated the – wait for it – Establishment clause of the First Amendment.

            There is nothing in the Constitution saying that we can have an air force, yet there the USAF sits. That’s because the Constitution was written in very broad terms because the Founders were smart enough to realize that what worked in 1789 might need to be modified later.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Dude, all that means is that there can’t be a government-established religion like Muslims do in Muslim lands. It doesn’t mean there can’t be prayer in a school. Lighten up.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            Is it worth my time to respond to you? You seem to ignore all the things I write, all the citations I give, in favor of just continuing to insist that what you want to be true is in fact true.

            I had clients like that, back in the day. The one who swore that their buddy would never testify against him even as the bud was being sworn in. It’s frustrating, but at least back then I got paid to deal with that level of denial.

            One more time. I want to you to READ what I am about to write:

            Organized prayer in schools led by a teacher or other school official has not been legal for decades. The case you want to read is Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421 (1962). I gave you the whole case listing. Look it up. But I’ll give you the summary.

            The majority, via Justice Black, held that school-sponsored prayer violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. The majority stated that the provision allowing students to absent themselves from this activity did not make the law constitutional because the purpose of the First Amendment was to prevent government interference with religion. The majority noted that religion is very important to a vast majority of the American people. Since Americans adhere to a wide variety of beliefs, it is not appropriate for the government to endorse any particular belief system. The majority noted that wars, persecutions, and other destructive measures often arose in the past when the government involved itself in religious affairs.

            This ruling has been upheld and expanded many times over the years. It is set in stone. Kids can pray on their own all they like, alone or in groups. But the government owned and run school cannot be part of it.

            This has to be one of the most simple legal concepts out there, why is it so hard for you?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Again, you are basically posting the same sort of nonsense. You can post any type of case that you want, but it won’t change the Constitution nor will it change the Constitution’s intent. The Founding Father’s wanted religion to flourish, particularly Christianity, and they all prayed publicly, prayed within government, and praised prayer and Bible study within schools.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            In this country the Supreme Court is the final word on determining what is Constitutional. So looking at SCOTUS cases is vital in understanding the issue. On the Establishment clause, the high court has ruled over and over that the government cannot be directly involved in religious affairs. No faculty led prayers, no endorsement of faith, and, in this case, no Bible club unless it is run by an outside sponsor outside of school hours.

            Nowhere does the Constitution mention an Air Force. Yet there the USAF sits. How is that possible? You tell me.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            There seems to be this bizarre, virulent strain of belief by the users of this site that Supreme Court decisions don’t matter. I’m not sure what they think the Supreme Court is for, but then, it’s not my delusion.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            You mean like saying that black men are sub-human? Oh wait, you’re Muslim. You do believe that.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            First of all, I left the faith forty years ago. Mainly because, like all religions, it didn’t stand up to logical scrutiny.

            Secondly, where do you get that Islam teaches to hate based on skin color? Have you looked at the Islamic world recently? Half the people in Africa are Muslim. Arab, Berber, and sub-Sahal, all the colors of Africa are represented in Islam.

            Now, can you tell me which religion was strongly represented in Atlantic slave trade? Was the prominent faith of the Confederate States of America who fought a war based on the idea that Africans were not really human?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            I’ll answer your last question first: Certainly not Christianity since the Bible forbids it and Christians freed the slaves.

            As far as Islam goes, why don’t you tell everyone here that the word for “black” in Arabic is “slave”?

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            Slave: عبد Eabd.

            Black: أسود ‘Asud

            Why do you lie? The Bible supports slavery in many places, and the practice didn’t end until after the Enlightenment began spreading the ideals of universal rights and the dignity of all men. Some Christians freed slaves. Some other Christians had to be forced to free their slaves at gunpoint.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Dude, try this on someone else. Abedعبد is the derogatory term for slave and the word used to describe black people.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            No, that’s just another word for slave. Now, shall we discuss the use of the N-word in English? There’s a parable about stones and glass houses that seems to apply here.

            And in Latin letters it’s Eabd. Pronounced Ahbdin.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Dude, before you try this taqiyya garbage here, know that I have Muslim family members. You are lying and badly.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            No, that’s زنجي. That’s the grossly insulting term for people with black skin. You have Muslim family, I grew up speaking English and Arabic in my home. Go ask your family what the word I posted means.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            I don’t have to ask anyone. I know that the commonly used term for those with dark skins is “slave”. You’re lying.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            Maybe your family is made up of bigots? Because I grew up speaking the language, and if I used the foul term I posted, my mother would have gone nuclear on me.

            And, I pointed out, English has its fair share of derogatory slurs for people of many races. So why single out Arabic?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            You’re lying again. There are many racist terms for black people in Arabic – MANY. You’re in denial about the most common way to refer to a black person.

            Are you Lebanese?

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            And there are just as many derogatory terms in English? Your point? That people are jerks? Conceded! That language can be used as a weapon? Totally agree!

            Ever been to Hawaii? I was stationed there. “Haole” is a derogatory term for anyone who isn’t descended from native Hawaiians. It’s used as an insult. How about Korea? Great language for racist names!

            Half, on my mother’s side.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            I knew you were Lebanese by the terminology you used.

            My point is that Islam teaches that blacks are inferior.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            “Surely all of mankind – from the time of Adam until our time – are like the teeth of a comb (all equal to one another) and there is no greatness for an `Arab over a non-`Arab and no greatness for a red-skinned person over a black-skinned person, except due to one’s consciousness of Allah (taqwa).” – Ikhtisas, Volume 341.

            You were saying? Please, provide a quote from the Koran or the Hadiths to support your claim.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Mohammed referred to Blacks as “raisin heads”. (Sahih al-Bukhari vol. 1, no. 662 and vol. 9, no. 256).

            In another Hadith, Mohammed is quoted as saying that Blacks are, “pug-nosed slaves”. (Sahih Moslem vol. 9, p. 46-47).

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            OK, now show me where Islam teaches hatred of blacks. You know, where were told to hate people because of skin color.

            Because what we have here is a contradiction. On the one hand, we have verses saying “equality for all” in others, racial slurs. One of the many reasons I am no longer religious. But the teachings of Islam is that all races are equal in the eyes of Allah.

            According to the Koran, “mankind is naught but a single nation” (2:213). God created all humans “from a single (pair) of a male and female, and made [us] into peoples and tribes, that [we] may know each other” and “…the most honored of [humans] in the sight of God is he who is most righteous…” (49:13).

            No, can we get back to you refusing to admit that English has a plethora of hateful terms for people of color? I have been called a camel jockey, goat f****r, sand n****r, and more often in recent days, a terrorist. By white, Christian Americans who assume that anyone with brown skin is the Other, and cannot possibly be a native of this country.

            Please address that point.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Racism is a much bigger problem in Islam than just about anywhere else. Most Islam nations forbid Jews to even enter the land. In Saudi Arabia, a Jew gets killed just for showing up. Try calling an Egyptian black, and watch what happens. Look at what Libya is doing TODAY – castrating and enslaving blacks. Come on, you know better than most people here just how racist Islam is. Tell the truth.

            As far as being called names, look, I’ve been calling plenty of names. A white liberal woman on Charisma said I could never be a real Christian because of what she falsely perceived about my ethnicity. Obviously she couldn’t have been a real Christian but just a fake. However, the difference is that the Qur’an endorses enslaving those of different ethnicities, and tells them to treat those of other faiths and colors differently. The Bible does the opposite and God punishes those who mistreat others.

            Do you know the first time I head the “n” word was when I was 10 years old and asked by the principal of our school to teach English to the refugee newcomers at our school. Do you know who used that word? A Croatian kid from the former Yugoslavia and then Muslim kids. The Muslim kids used it more than anyone else. They had to remove a black principal from the school because the Muslim kids disrespected him so much and they put a Muslim principal in charge. The black principal was a great guy and did his job well. Instead of letting him discipline the bigots, they moved him out of there.

            There are lots of Muslim scholars who are revered today, who are openly racist. I could quote volumes, and will if you want me to.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            Actual, many Arab nations refuse entry to people with Israeli passports or passports with an Israeli entry/exit stamp. Since passports don’t list religion there’s no effective way to ban people of a certain faith.

            Non-Muslims can travel to Saudi Arabia, but cannot enter Mecca or the area around the Al-Masjid an-Nabawi in Medina. Jews are not killed on entering the country. Besides, the Saudis are nuts. They are the equivalent of the lunatic fringe of Christians who stand on the street corner screaming at people. They just happened to live on top of an ocean of oil.

            Yeah, slavery is still a problem in many places. But it’s not because the slavers are Muslim. The Lord’s Resistance Army is big on slavery and they claim to be Christian.

            People, of all faiths and no faith, can be heartless racist jerks, and also they can be people of amazing character. Some use religion as an excuse for hatred, others find in it the drive to raise up the less fortunate. This goes for everyone. Right now in SE Asia, militant Buddhists are exterminating the Muslim minority Rohingya and Kamein peoples. Roll that around for a while in your head. Militant Buddhists.

            People are jerks, and people in large groups who believe that the Divine is on their side can be horrible. I’m done with this. You can keep believing that Islam is horribly racist, and the border control can magically determine religion, but I’m finished.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            First of all, Jews have been expelled from practically all Muslim lands, and you are naïve if you don’t realize that it’s Saudi LAW to KILL any Jew who dares enter in. You are also extremely confused if you liken someone “screaming” at someone on the street to someone beheading a person because of religion/culture.

            Look, you don’t even realize your own prejudices because they’ve become so ingrained in. You’ve falsely slammed Christians and Jews here without even realizing your condemnation is based upon ill conceived prejudice and not fact.

            Everyone has sin. Every single person including me, your next door neighbor, and yourself. Jesus Christ came to set us free from sin, and that freedom is glorious! I hope you come to know that freedom one day. May God bless you, lawyer.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            OK, cite the Saudi Law. Show it to me. Look up the US State Department’s travel advisory page for the KSA The US government doesn’t mention all Jews being killed on arrival. Nor does the EU, or any other government.

            The Saudi government simply says that anyone holding an Israeli passport will be denied entry, even if the holder is merely changing planes. People with an Israeli visa stamp in their passport should expect to be denied entry.

            Stop lying.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            So who would have an Israeli passport but a Jew? Come on, why lie about this? It’s not very “honest” of you, lawyer.

            Here’s a list of Muslim countries that ban Jews:

            Syria
            Iran
            Iraq
            Yemen
            Libya
            Algeria
            Bangladesh
            Brunei
            Kuwait
            Lebanon
            Malaysia
            Oman
            Pakistan
            Sudan
            Saudi Arabia
            United Arab Emirates

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            The 25% of Israelis who are not Jewish. As of 2015, Jewish 74.8%, Muslim 17.6%, Christian 2%, Druze 1.6%, other 4%.

            OK, show me where Lebanon bans Jews, and has anyone told the small Jewish community living there. Cite the laws, please. Remember that you are dealing with a former lawyer. I don’t accept unsupported claims.

            I already pointed out that Saudi Arabia only bans people with Israeli passports and those with Israeli visa stamps in their passports. If I had kept up my faith, and had entered Israel on business or pleasure, I would not have been allowed to enter Saudi Arabia.

            I’m still waiting for you to find a single governmental source that supports your claim that Jews are killed immediately on entering the KSA. Or, if you can’t find that, show me news reports of such an event happening, with names, dates, and all the details.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            This is from the CIA Factbook:

            The following appeared on the official website of the Saudi Supreme Commission for Tourism in February 2004. The site says the policy of the Saudi Arabian government is to deny visas to “Jewish People.” After this anti-Semitic language was discovered and publicized by the media and Congressman Anthony Weiner, the Saudi government removed the offensive language claiming that it was a “mistake.” Rep. Weiner noted that the Saudi record of anti-Semitism suggests otherwise and subsequently sponsored a bill that would control the distribution of visas to Saudi citizens until the President certifies that the Saudis do not discriminate on the basis of religious affiliation or heritage when issuing visas:

            Everyone who enters the Kingdom should have a valid passport with at least 6 months validity and the appropriate visa.

            Unless you are a visitor from a GCC country or in transit, all other nationalities require a visa to enter the Kingdom. Visas can be for business, tourist, transit, residency, family, Hajj, or conference attendance.

            Visas can be obtained from the visa department in the Saudi Embassy of the visitor’s home country or from Saudi Consulates available in all main cities around the world.

            The cost of a visa is generally 200 Saudi Riyals however visitors should ensure that they check with the Saudi Embassy or Consulate.

            Visas will not be issued for the following groups of people:

            An Israeli passport holder or a passport that has an Israeli arrival/departure stamp.
            Those who don’t abide by the Saudi traditions concerning appearance and behaviors. Those under the influence of alcohol will not be permitted into the Kingdom.
            There are certain regulations for pilgrims and you should contact the consulate for more information.
            Jewish People

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Here’s more for you about Lebanon (It’s from Canada Free Press):

            “Where is the Outrage Over Travel Bans for Jews to Muslim Countries?

            February 3, 2017

            ORLANDO, FL – The executive order signed by President Trump last week, which temporarily halts for 90 days nationals of seven countries from entering the United States, has generated an uproar by some. Yet, why are the same people silent about travel bans imposed by these and other Muslim countries against Jews who hold Israeli passports?

            The seven countries, previously identified as high risk for being hotbeds of terrorism by former President Obama’s Department of Homeland Security, are: Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria and Yemen. Temporary travel restrictions have been issued by prior presidents, including Obama. However, a permanent travel ban by these and other Muslim countries against Jews who hold Israeli passports is a far greater concern than temporary travel restrictions. Jews with Israeli passports are currently forbidden from entering the following 16 Muslim countries: Syria, Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Libya, Algeria, Bangladesh, Brunei, Kuwait, Lebanon, Malaysia, Oman, Pakistan, Sudan, Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emirates.

            “Why is a temporary ban on some people from seven countries that sponsor terrorism outrageous but a permanent ban on Israeli Jews is never mentioned?” said Mat Staver, Founder and Chairman of Liberty Counsel and President of Christians in Defense of Israel and Covenant Journey. “Anti-Semitism is more widespread than most people imagine. The only reason these Muslim countries permanently ban Israeli Jews while the rest of the world is silent can only be explained by hatred against Jews. The temporary travel restriction to the United States is due to national security concerns. The permanent travel ban against Israeli Jews to these Muslim countries is due to anti-Semitism. This is where the outrage ought to be focused,” said Staver.”

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            And there are just as many derogatory terms in English? Your point? That people are jerks? Conceded! That language can be used as a weapon? Totally agree!

            Ever been to Hawaii? I was stationed there. “Haole” is a derogatory term for anyone who isn’t descended from native Hawaiians. It’s used as an insult. How about Korea? Great language for racist names!

            Half, on my mother’s side.

          • Colin Rafferty

            Sure it’s illegal, that why the school stopped.

            I don’t think I made my moral argument clear, though. The issue is not the kids in the class, but the kids not in the class. Their parents don’t want someone else teaching them what they consider a false religion, but it is their own teacher they are being stopped from being with.

            These kids are now caught between their parents and their school. It is unfair to them.

            The kids in the class have other options. The kids that are being left out have none.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Your argument holds no logic. You’re basically saying that since some parents won’t give their children good food, no children should have good food. You really want to hold to that argument?

          • Colin Rafferty

            Not at all. I’m not making any value judgment about the particular religion being taught.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Again, you need to re-read your post and mine. You clearly don’t even understand your own argument and why it’s baseless.

          • Colin Rafferty

            You are correct, I don’t understand why my arguments are baseless. All your did was make a weird analogy about food.

            The legal issue is clear: public school teachers cannot lead religious instruction.

            The moral issue is also clear: the kids who are not of that religion are getting caught between their parents and the school. The kids who are of that religion have many other options, while the kids not of that have no options.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            “All your did”. 🙂 What I did was give you a simplified explanation that I hoped you could understand. You couldn’t. Sorry I can’t make it simpler for you.

          • Colin Rafferty

            I would prefer you actually addressed my argument, rather than making a false analogy and then demolishing that.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            I did address your “argument” and gave you an analogy to show you the error of your ways. I can’t simplify it more than that.

          • Colin Rafferty

            No you didn’t address a thing I said. You made a bad analogy, and criticized that analogy. I don’t need anything simplified. I’d rather you actually responded to my argument, rather than the straw man argument you choose to respond to.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Dude, it just goes over your head again and again. You don’t even know what a straw man argument is. 🙂

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            No, there is a problem when teachers in a state run and funded school are giving religious indoctrination lessons on school property. It’s against the law.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            No it isn’t. Separation of church and state merely means that the church can’t force religion on people, like what happens in Islam countries. It doesn’t mean religion must be absent. The founding fathers encouraged public prayer and themselves prayed publicly. They wanted religion to be taught. Parents have approved of their kids being taught these lessons. It’s their business, not yours. Get your creepy paws off of other people’s children.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            Wrong. Read the Establishment Clause closely. Now read 200 years of court findings, especially Lemon v. Kurtzman (1971).

            The Founding Fathers also owned slaves. Does that make slavery right?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            You are wrong. The founding fathers knew what they were doing when they wrote the Constitution. They founded the nation for religious freedom. You can ramble on about slavery, but we both know that’s just a red herring on your part. Parents want their children taught in this group. That’s their business, not yours.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            It would help if you responded to the argument he was actually making. Again, I refer you to Lemon v. Kurtzman.

            Also, Engel v. Vitale, holding it unconstitutional for teachers to lead prayers in public schools.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            I knew that would provoke you to pop out here. 🙂 How many handles have you got?

          • Ambulance Chaser

            One. Now are you going to answer the question?

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            And yet the Constitution never once mentions religion, except that requiring religious tests or requirements for public office was forbidden. Oh, and the First Amendment, when the founders made it clear that everyone was free to worship or not as they please, and Congress could do nothing to establish religion.

            Which includes teaching it in publicly funded schools.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            It doesn’t include publicly funded schools because that went on for hundreds of years before lefties and Christian and Jew haters went after it.

        • TheLastHonestLawyer

          Thank you for making my argument for me. 1st and 2nd graders have almost no control of their daily schedule, therefore you cannot say that a school club – any school club – directed at them is something the kids are doing of their own volition.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            I’m sure first and second graders have more intelligence than you do.

      • bowie1

        The school is now working on getting outside people to run the bible club but it is outside of classroom time nevertheless. Are teachers also then forbidden from participating in other clubs such as those based on science, photography, athletics, yearbook, etc.? If not then there seems to be a form of discrimination based on religion.

  • Andrew W

    The bible is full of murder, slavery, rape, sexism, pillage and plunder. It’s disgusting and should be kept off school premises and away from children, always.

    • Oboehner

      Sure, we way better off living with murder, slavery, rape, sexism, pillage and plunder under atheistic rule.

    • Steven

      It’s all about perspective.

    • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

      The Bible is full of reality. It’s better you face it now and repent than end up in hellfire for eternity.

      • bfw314159

        Why isn’t it possible to change your mind later? Typically, only a conman forces you to make a decision before you have all the information needed.

        • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

          You can have all the information you need. It’s in the Bible. Read it.

          • Sisyphus

            Or, some such version in every religious text, but you just happen to be reading the correct one?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            You can always go to the original text you know. 🙂

          • bfw314159

            No, that isn’t firsthand information, it’s hearsay. After death I supposedly have firsthand information, so why can’t I change my mind then?

            For that matter, there are plenty of contradictory claims about god(s), so how can I be expected to know which ones are false?

            It’s still a con game.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Jesus Christ is the One who offers firsthand information and He is an historical figure.

          • bfw314159

            It’s still hearsay, not firsthand information. And in any case, why can’t I change my mind after I die?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            It’s not hearsay when it’s directly from a witness.

            You can’t change your mind after you die because you get one life to live. It’s not a do-over.

          • bfw314159

            It’s not hearsay when it’s directly from a witness.

            But we don’t have that. Jesus isn’t walking around today to answer questions; we have centuries-old writings. Hearsay.

            You can’t change your mind after you die because you get one life to live.

            That doesn’t explain why I can’t change my mind later, after getting more information.

            It’s not a do-over.

            I’m not asking for a do-over, I’m asking why I can’t change my mind after death.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Jesus Christ IS alive today, and can very much be reached. So much for your theory.

            Changing your mind after death – and unless you repent, you will want to – isn’t possible. That IS asking for a do-over and you don’t get that because you have this entire life to make your choice.

          • bfw314159

            Jesus Christ IS alive today, and can very much be reached.

            Nope. It’s just your imagination.

            So much for your theory.

            Try getting Jesus’ testimony admitted in court.

            Changing your mind after death – and unless you repent, you will want to – isn’t possible.

            Why not?

            That IS asking for a do-over

            No, it isn’t. It’s asking for a chance to change my mind because now I have more information.

            and you don’t get that because you have this entire life to make your choice.

            Which is full of contradictory claims.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Dude, you just keep repeating illogical claims. 🙁 Jesus Christ is an historical figure. We have His recorded words. That’s an historical record. Deny them if you will, but then face the consequences. No, you won’t get a do-over. It’s now or never.

          • bfw314159

            Dude, you just keep repeating illogical claims.

            No, not “illogical”.

            Jesus Christ is an historical figure. We have His recorded words.

            That’s hearsay. “information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate”

            That’s an historical record.

            Unsubstantiated.

            No, you won’t get a do-over. It’s now or never.

            And you’ve never explained why I can’t change my mind later. I can change my mind while I’m still alive, so why can’t I after I die?

      • TheLastHonestLawyer

        You mean like talking snakes and unicorns?

        • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

          You went through this stuff under your other handle. 🙂 You really want to go over it again?

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            What other handle? I assure you, this is my only profile on Disqus.

          • Amos Moses

            only one NOW ………..

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            I used to use my real name. That ended after an interaction on another site led to death threats from a sadly unhinged person. I changed me handle and locked down my social media to either private or friends only.

          • Amos Moses

            well that was a smart idea ……….. sorry that happened ……….

      • Sisyphus

        And you have objective proof of this eternal hellfire?

        • Jason Todd

          Keep denying God and the proof will more than objective.

          Why in the world would any reasonable person want eternal damnation?

          • Croquet_Player

            Why would any reasonable deity offer it?

          • Parodyx

            Wish I could upvote you a thousand times for that one.

          • Sisyphus

            Why in the world would any reasonable person live their life in anticipation of an afterlife?

          • Jason Todd

            Because reasonable people aren’t breathtakingly stupid enough to think there isn’t one.

          • Sisyphus

            You have objective proof there is one?

          • Jason Todd

            Why should I waste my time having to prove something you already know? Go try that with someone else.

          • Sisyphus

            Didn’t you just say, yesterday, you are not going to waste any of your precious time on me? Are you a liar or do you lack impulse control? You could probably find conversion therapy for either disorder. You really should use your threats of a horrible afterlife on someone​ else. My concern is defining a free existence for myself in the here and now in the vein of Beaudelaire and Camus.

          • Jason Todd

            I’m sorry, but when an atheist libtard comes in here with the want to make as many people as stupid as they are, I am not one to let it go unchallenged.

          • Sisyphus

            A libtard, ha that’s a new one I’ve never heard before. Please don’t tell the Cato Institute I’ve bamboozled them into funding some research.

          • Jason Todd

            I am sure it was on a project on how much of a narcissist you are, and it was a waste of money as the 65465761387 mirrors in your home could have told you what you needed to know.

        • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

          Meaning is there an eyewitness I can trust? Of course! Jesus Christ the Risen!

          • Sisyphus

            You’ve seen Jesus? Wow, you must be old and well traveled.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            I didn’t say I was an eyewitness. I said is there an eyewitness I can trust. Jesus Christ is an eyewitness to hell.

    • Denny

      So is Shakespeare, you illiterate.
      If a school library can handle Heather Has Two Mommies, it can handle anything.

      • Chris

        Does the book ‘Heather has two mommies’ extol incest in an erotic poem? Does it deal with the mass rape and murder of a concubine? The bible is far too pornographic to be given to elementary school children to read.

    • InTheChurch

      look up “13 reasons”

    • Sharon_at_home

      Today’s society has murder, rape, sexism, and people rob people often. The only thing missing is something offered in other cultures and that is slavery so technically each of those things are currently being done in this world.
      If you don’t want to believe that’s your choice but you should realize that the time in history that the bible is about is also a long time ago when those things were common and those details are necessary in the bible to show what it was like when it was happening… you know like history.
      The bible is not any more violent than the movies and shows that are popular now. And don’t think that the younger generation are always kept out of them. They are very aware and up to date on movies if their household shows them there.
      The bible, if it were in used in schools, would help them understand a lot of things in the world as someone talking ((about history would say) as well.
      Violent movies, shows and movies with outright sex, and video games (can be) the most violent and the most used by the same children you say shouldn’t be exposed to the bible.
      So with that out of the way, I felt you were angry in your post so I would like to ask what is the source for your anger. 🙂

  • Colin Rafferty

    FFRF is correct. It is illegal for a public school to provide religious instruction. This is why they didn’t complain about the other club — it was not run by the teachers.

    And if an outside sponsor wants to run the club, that would be fine. Those cases cited are each about clubs that are not run by the school.

  • Steven

    I wonder if the FFRF is taking this much interest in the schools around the country which are introducing students to the 5 pillars of Islam?

    FFRF needs to change their acronym to FFCF; the ‘C’ meaning Christianity, of course.

    I think lawyers, judges, and politicians need to go back to the basics of religious freedoms as it was defined at the onset of the country; because they really obfuscated the original intent.

    • james blue

      FFRF does go after Islam in schools.

    • Vince

      They are craven cowards.
      They know Christians won’t cut their heads off.

    • Colin Rafferty

      If teachers are teaching the five pillars as fact, then the FFRF goes after them. If they are teaching them in the context of what religions are like, they don’t. Just as they don’t go after schools who teach what christianity is about.

      • Steven

        If teachers are teaching the five pillars as fact,
        Well aint that a little misleading. So…are the teachers opening up with: “students, this is only a myth.” Could you image the news reports on discrimination and such.

        then the FFRF goes after them.
        Yeah…with feigned attention. Although, I’ve not read anything on FFRF going after Islam. Kind of like how the LGBT doesn’t go after Islam.
        I’ve read too many disturbing stories (one is too many in my opinion) showing unbalanced content in regards to students visiting Mosques, learning about the five pillars, reciting the shahada, and learning about Muhammad. All without so much as a peep of outrage from the FFRF.

        they don’t go after schools who teach what christianity is about.
        I’m not aware of any schools, besides Christian schools, that have ANY curriculum on Christianity–maybe a passing mention, which is more than likely an attempt to revise and misrepresent history.

        • Colin Rafferty

          Your lack of knowledge of the existence of courses in comparative religion, or the proper way to teach them, is not proof that they don’t exist.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Neither is your comment proof that Steven did what you accused him of. 🙂

          • Colin Rafferty

            He thinks that teaching about religion starts with “this is a myth”. He also says, “I’m not aware of any schools … that have ANY curriculum on Christianity”.

            You teach about religion by saying, “these are the basic tenets of this religion”. And comparative religion classes exist all over the place.

            All I accused Steven of what not knowing these things. Which he says he doesn’t.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Again, you have reading comprehension problems and faulty logic.

          • Parodyx

            No, he doesn’t. He’s exactly right. Steven said he didn’t know.

          • Steven

            He thinks…”this is a myth”
            I meant that as sarcasm. You are being disingenuous in how you are representing my meaning. That, or you don’t understand what I’m writing. Teachers, regardless, will present religious information as something that is factually believed by a people.

            He also says, “I’m not aware of any schools…
            This is a challenge for you to help me understand that Islam and other religions are being covered equally in schools. And taught as a way to understand religious cultures and not being indoctrinated.

            In other words: are materials and time given equal across all religious ideologies? Do they mix the religion with other cultural events of that era (i.e. water down the subject matter)? Does one ideology fall through the cracks because it’s only covered if time allows it? Is factual information being left out or altered, so as not to insult or offend a particular group (ahem….Islam)?

            By the way, parents complaining about the subject matter is a clear sign someone went too far.

            I am not an active member of any public educational system, and my knowledge just comes from what I peruse through on the Internet.

            For example:
            1. Students recite pledge in Arabic: “One Nation Under Allah.”
            NOTE: Allah does not equal the God of the Bible
            2. Female students encouraged to wear the hijab.
            3. Students take field trip to Mosque.
            4. 36 pages of Islam in world history textbook / 1/2 page on Christianity
            5. High School permits Muslim Prayer
            6. revisionist history: Muslims were tolerant of those they conquered

            …just to name a few articles I read…

            ou teach about religion by saying, “these are the basic tenets…
            And the basic tenets include reciting the shahada? Really?!

            Which he says he doesn’t.
            I don’t know ALL the details, but I am able to rationalize through the stink of hypocrisy that comes out of the Atheist camp.

            Where’s FFRF in all these complaints?

          • Colin Rafferty

            Sarcasm does not travel well in writing. I assume that people mean what they write.

            Teaching that people believe a fact is different from teaching it as a fact. The former is fine. The latter is illegal.

            And the issue at hand is about teaching religion as fact. The organization is called the Freedom From Religion Foundation, not Freedom From Religious Facts Foundation.

            They don’t care about teaching of religious beliefs, they just care about teaching them as fact. Because the latter is illegal, and the former is not.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Some of the things in the bible are facts, Colin.
            I find that most Christians say it is a belief, and do not say it is fact. Some facts have been proven the more recent discoveries in literature and in archeology about those historical times.
            The thing you don’t want to be taught is, I think, that God is real. is that right?

          • Colin Rafferty

            I am uninterested in discussing which religion has the facts on its side. It is a waste of time, since everyone believes it is their own particular one, and no one will have their minds changed. I prefer to discuss morals and ethics directly.

            What I don’t want is for the government to choose a religion, because I don’t think that government should be involved in religion. And that includes the government teaching religion as fact.

          • Sharon_at_home

            No this is proof of historical events that are described in the bible that they found other proof of. Just FYI
            I understand your beliefs, and that you don’t like the bible to be spoken about like it’s a fact.
            It’s hard for me being a believer, but I think whether it’s a fact or not should not be lied about but rather it should stand on it’s own merits.
            I learned my morals and ethics from school and home. If the people in the child’s house that have bad morals or ethics (or both) the school can still reach that student, but not if they don’t learn them.
            It’s a belief and it is, to us, a fact. But I would hope that a Christian would also rely on the believer.
            Each person must make the decision in their heart whether to follow Jesus or not. The Lord doesn’t want unwilling people to come to him. And if it’s in their hearts, he knows it’s true devotion to Jesus. That is the difference between a believer and a non-believer basically I guess.
            So really feeling that it is a fact can’t be done without believing Jesus is/was real. And that HAS to be an honest belief that Jesus died for our sins and our salvation or the Lord will know.
            So now you know an explanation from a Christian’s view, and since I don’t think the same way as “Christians” and I look at things differently than the ones in the media. Not all Christians or religions are the same when it comes to behaviour.
            I think morals and ethics are important whether being taught in Sunday School or anywhere else.

            I would prefer anything as long as the children are taught morals and ethics as a subject in primary schools. They should discuss them and learn them and not be expected to mimic the people they know about morals and ethics.
            Unless the teacher includes a lesson about them, they are not addressed from what I’ve been hearing. It’s as bad as not correcting their spelling when it’s incorrect. They say 1 They will pick it up on their own – I haven’t seen evidence of that yet. or they say 2. that it makes a child feel bad when they have that kind of thing happen. They shouldn’t be told that ‘they’ are wrong. Boo Hoo little child. I’m sorry I think society wants our children to be too safe from being ‘hurt’ or ‘offended’ rather than strong and able to deal with those situations. they need to learn about what real life is like before they are thrust into it. Not teaching them correction and self confidence about their work is not the way to make it in the world, regardless of religion.
            Sorry, I think I was preaching there for a minute; about the children, not about a Christians’ beliefs that is. lol God bless Colin! 😀

          • Bob Johnson

            “No this is proof of historical events…”

            Reading Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s stories contain many facts about old London. Can we then assume everything about Sherlock Holmes is real and actually happened? A Bible Study class would probably not be limited to ethics and morals (more on that later) but instead include stories less likely to be true, such as, Noah being found by his son naked and drunk. How does a public school teacher, who is also a Christian, make these distinctions? Which are well established facts and what events have little to no supporting evidence?

            All religious texts have rules for how to live as well as stories which can be interpreted either literally or figuratively. Christians differ widely now certain events should be presented. It would be difficult to explain the positive values of the Greek pantheon if you had to include the river Styx boatman as literal fact.

            Assuming the class only taught morals limiting it to God’s commandments. Some Christian believe all the commandments apply other say the kosher requirements no long are to be keep. If we limit the morals to Ten Commandments, unlike Grace’s comments. all religions provide a moral code and claiming all morals comes from my God, then seems to get us back to your opening line concerning proof of historical events, that is, my God exists and is a historical fact.

            And finally, what does a public school teacher on public school property say to young students concerning same-sex marriage, when many churches are against the practice and it is legal?

            Morals can and should be taught as something that applies to everyone regardless of faith. Religion for Sunday school. pastors, parents, family, and friends.

          • bfw314159

            1. Students recite pledge in Arabic: “One Nation Under Allah.”
            NOTE: Allah does not equal the God of the Bible

            Neither does the god in “one nation under god” refer to the Christian god, at least according to US courts that have upheld it as religiously meaningless.

            5. High School permits Muslim Prayer

            Students can pray in public schools; in fact, it’s a right.

            Where’s FFRF in all these complaints?

            What complaints? Got any cites?

          • Steven

            yeah…I’m moving on. I’m not spending anymore time here. Too busy. Tchau

          • bfw314159

            Plenty of time to criticize, no time to back up your own claims.

          • Steven

            Dude, get a life. We have conflicting forms of reality based on our world-views; a recipe for a never ending argument.

            One has a couple back and forth responses and then move on. This is not a retirement project.

            Don’t worry, you’ll probably see me comment on other articles. But this is played out. Sorry man….or woman…or some crazy gender identity….:-P

          • bfw314159

            So, you have time to write three more responses after your first two repsonses saying you were done, but not enough time to back up your big mouth.

          • Steven

            Think about the effort in quick responses compared to those that require more input, defuse. Plus I work on the computer, so I can see your trolling pretty easy. Now, run along SJW.

          • bfw314159

            Think about the effort in quick responses compared to those that require more input.

            That’s all you’ve been doing; you won’t back up your claims because you can’t.

        • bfw314159

          Although, I’ve not read anything on FFRF going after Islam.

          Well then, you need to read their “Why doesn’t FFRF ever go after Muslims?” in their State/Church FAQ.

          However, after a few seconds of thought, it should be obvious why there would be far more cases of Christianity being unlawfully promoted by government officials vs. Islam.

          • Steven

            Well then, you need to read
            Okay, I read it. And if you can’t reason through that line of bull, then you are holding a position based on your own biases and not reason as most atheists proclaim. And, us, arguing the details would be a waist of time.

            Either way: The issue of the FFRF [sic] is a minor issue of mine. Not interested in that so much.

          • bfw314159

            Okay, I read it. And if you can’t reason through that line of bull, then you are holding a position based on your own biases and not reason as most atheists proclaim

            What’s incorrect about it? Be specific.

            And, us, arguing the details would be a waist of time.

            So you’ve decided to bail already.

            Either way: The issue of the FFRF [sic] is a minor issue of mine. Not interested in that so much.

            So you brought it up out of ignorance, and after being shown they DO go after Islam, you suddenly don’t care.

          • Steven

            What’s incorrect about it?
            Think statistical numbers, how they are formed and how they can be misleading; and what demonstrates the greatest dangers to a democratic republic. I just see feigned attention towards Islam from this group and atheists as a whole.

            So you’ve decided to bail already.
            Nope! Just kind of busy.

            So you brought it up
            First: complete statements in regards to FFRF on what I posted was minor compared to everything else I posted.

            out of ignorance,
            Ignorance as to their day-to-day activities? yes.
            Ignorance as to their lopsided attacks on Christianity/Islamic issues? Nope. Not from the information that I run across. But we’re all ignorant in different ways. For example, I would say you’re ignorant on reality and truth in regards to God.

            they DO go after Islam
            halfhearted

          • bfw314159

            I just see feigned attention towards Islam from this group and atheists as a whole.

            Then tell the FFRF (and people here) about situations they missed. They can’t make up lawsuits out of whole cloth.

            Ignorance as to their lopsided attacks on Christianity/Islamic issues? Nope.

            What’s “lopsided”? What Islamic issues isn’t the FFRF pursuing?

            halfhearted

            Again, what events are they missing or ignoring?

          • Steven

            Yeah…time to move on….have a great day.

  • TheLastHonestLawyer

    Let’s teach the little ones Ezekiel 23:20.

    • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

      Looks like you need to learn it first since you obviously have no clue what it means.

      • TheLastHonestLawyer

        OK, quote it and explain it to me.

        • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

          Why? You clearly don’t care about the truth of the Bible. You’re here to disrupt. You think you found a zhinger from an atheist site, but the sad thing is you don’t know the first clue about what the entire Bible is about.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            Actually, my BA was in the history of the Levant, seeing as my family was from there. I’ve spent years researching all the holy writings of the major Abrahamic faiths, as they are one of the keys to understanding Western history.

            Are you saying you can’t explain Ezekiel 23:20 to me? Can’t even quote it here?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Dude, you’re going all red herring because you are upset that you don’t have a leg to stand on regarding this Bible class.

            So you’re Muslim, huh?

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            I, and others, have been explaining why the district needs to change how its run elsewhere. So long as an outside group is running it, it’s fine. But it cannot be sponsored and supervised by the school district.

            I was. I left the faith long ago. Why do you ask?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            It’s obvious you have a deep seated hatred for Jews and Christians.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            Yes, I deeply hate Christians, I hate them so much that I married into a Catholic family. A family that was there for me when I had my stroke. And I became a lawyer, because I wanted to work in a field where you would never encounter a Jew.

            You make really, really bad assumptions. I don’t hate Christians, Jews, or any other large group. I object to actions that undermine the legal concepts that I swore to uphold both as a soldier and as a lawyer. I would object just as hard to teachers running a morning Koran teaching as I object to this one, because I know first-hand what it leads to!

            You want to know why the Islamic world is such a mess? It isn’t the Koran. It’s fanatics getting a hold of children and teaching them a twisted form of the faith. Don’t think it can happen here? The Ku Klux Klan has always claimed to be a Christian organization. You can find blatantly racist homeschooling materials on the web. Without eternal guard, it can and will happen here, and you won’t like the results.

            So yeah, I’m against school sponsored religious indoctrination classes.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            This isn’t a school sponsored religious indoctrination class. It’s a Bible class taught by teacher and approved by parents. There goes your hysterical theory.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            The use of a teacher breaks the law. The school district itself has suspended this particular club until they can find an outside sponsor to run it, as is done for the clubs for the older kids.

            If I’m wrong, why is the school district taking these actions? Why is it their policy to only allow clubs with outside sponsors?

          • Ambulance Chaser

            He doesn’t have a leg to stand on? Maybe you should inform the school’s lawyer. Because he doesn’t seem to understand the law as well as you do.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            I’m sure he doesn’t understand the law as well as I do. 🙂 Nice to see you switch back. 🙂

          • Amos Moses

            23:18 So she discovered her whoredoms, and discovered her nakedness: then my mind was alienated from her, like as my mind was alienated from her sister.
            23:19 Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt.
            23:20 For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.
            23:21 Thus thou calledst to remembrance the lewdness of thy youth, in bruising thy teats by the Egyptians for the paps of thy youth.
            23:22 Therefore, O Aholibah, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will raise up thy lovers against thee, from whom thy mind is alienated, and I will bring them against thee on every side;
            23:23 The Babylonians, and all the Chaldeans, Pekod, and Shoa, and Koa, and all the Assyrians with them: all of them desirable young men, captains and rulers, great lords and renowned, all of them riding upon horses.
            23:24 And they shall come against thee with chariots, wagons, and wheels, and with an assembly of people, which shall set against thee buckler and shield and helmet round about: and I will set judgment before them, and they shall judge thee according to their judgments.

          • Amos Moses

            “because thou hast gone a whoring after the heathen, and because thou art polluted with their idols.” …. that be you ……..

  • InTheChurch

    If this is before school, what is the problem? In other arguments, it’s ok to read the bible during lunch or during breaks. bible studies after school is Ok. So why is 6am a problem?

    • Croquet_Player

      It’s not the time of day which is the problem. It’s that it’s teacher-led, with no outside sponsor.

      • InTheChurch

        Is the teacher on the clock at 7 am? or volunteer time?

        • Croquet_Player

          Again, it doesn’t matter what time it is, or if the teacher is “on the clock”. This is the teacher, and those are his or her students, and it’s at school.

        • Colin Rafferty

          That irrelevant. The teachers are doing this at the school. And even worse, the class is running right into the beginning of the day, so there is not way that the excluded kids don’t know they are excluded.

    • Colin Rafferty

      The issue isn’t about what time it is, but the fact that the teachers are running it. If there were an outside sponsor, like with the other clubs it would be fine.

      • InTheChurch

        Are the teachers on the clock? if yes, then we might have an issue. If not, no issue here.

        • Colin Rafferty

          No, but it doesn’t matter. This is happening at the school, and that’s the issue.

          And even worse, the class is running right into the beginning of the day, so there is not way that the excluded kids don’t know they are excluded.

  • Jason Todd

    I just wanted to point out the only reason why you see people actually siding with the FFRF’s campaign to silence the Christian faith is because they are anti-Christian bigots just like the FFRF.

    • bfw314159

      Reverend Barry Lynn of Americans United for Separation of Church and State has sided with the FFRF many times. Rev. Lynn isn’t an anti-Christian bigot.

  • Croquet_Player

    I’m always astonished that so many school administrators seem to fall afoul of these laws. It’s not the least bit complicated. And surely a key part of the job requirement for a school administrator is to understand the laws governing public schools, and steer well clear of embroiling your school district in an expensive lawsuit, whatever the reason.

  • Becky

    These atheists are threatened to the core by the Holy Word of God Almighty. It’s clear who they work for. They don’t have a problem with the schools teaching students the religions of homosexuality and heathendom, but if the schools/students mention anything about Christianity…

    • Sisyphus

      Not threatened, just irritated at coercion toward conformity.

      • Becky

        You must be referring to the litigious heathens FFRF…they’re the only ones using coercion.

        • Sisyphus

          The FFRF in some instances, but religious folk as well (i.e. think and act as we deem appropriate, or you are shunned and ridiculed.)

          • Becky

            Not from Christians.

          • Sisyphus

            You must “hang out” with much more tolerant Christians than I’ve experienced.

          • Becky

            Firstly, I don’t…”hang out”. Secondly, anyone who behaves in the manner that you’ve described is not a Christian.

          • Sisyphus

            You don’t hang out? No friends? Sounds like a boring life.

          • Sharon_at_home

            redirection?

  • Nidalap

    Accepting money from the government is little more that a trap.
    Once you do, they start trying to exert control over everything you do…

    • Sisyphus

      You’ve just described religion. Join the club, then obey, and don’t think freely, or off to hell with you!

      • Sharon_at_home

        That’s not the way with my church. We give you a choice whether you want to visit, then you learn about the bible and read it over a long period if it’s just in church, Then at this point or even earlier, you choose whether to believe or not, then you are taught to follow Jesus. Jesus told us to love each other and to treat each other kindly. So please remember that all religions are not the same. Ours is about the bible, but it is more about the good things God blesses us with, not the negative – like going to hell.
        Is there something bad about teaching children to love one another and treat each other well (like you would like to be treated)? There is supposed to be proof that Jesus was a man of mention in someone’s diary I think, sorry didn’t follow up on it.
        In 8 years I’ve only heard my Pastor speak about Hell once. And that was not directed at any one in particular, not even our visitors.
        So your expressed view has no merit because all religions do not do what you inferred every Christian is like because of their religion.

        • Jason Todd

          Sissypus is merely showcasing his contempt for Christanity.

          And if your pastor isn’t talking about salvation, find a different church.

          • Sharon_at_home

            He does talk about Salvation of course. You can’t discuss Jesus without learning about our salvation. But I didn’t learn about it until I joined the church at 52. He just doesn’t dwell on the bad things but instead points out the good things more often.
            We go by the scriptures and if they aren’t in the scriptures, they are not of God. Thanks for your reply Jason, I appreciate the heads up about Sissypus. 😀

    • TheLastHonestLawyer

      This is a public school. It is part of the government. It is owned by the school district, all the employees are considered to be government workers.

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    American schools should stop accepting complaints from the atheists. Christians created the USA for Christian happiness. Because individuals and institutions have yielded to atheism, more lawsuits followed, and the USA behaves like the atheistic Soviet Union rather than a good free country now. The Russians are not even atheistic this century. The USA is 100 years behind Russia. Serious people should be free to worship God and proclaim His truth anywhere in America.

    • TheLastHonestLawyer

      OK, let’s assume that this was happening when I was a kid. A Bible study class teaching a Christian viewpoint in my public school. What would you say when the Muslim parents in the district complained?

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        True Muslims would not have immigrated to Christian USA in the first place if there were no religious freedom there. The Muslim children should have some exempt status regarding the Bible classes. But if any humans do not learn the Biblical teachings, those people do not come to value everyone’s life or rights; Christian teaching must be given to every student for everyone’s safety.

        • TheLastHonestLawyer

          You just said that my parents did not value anyone life or rights. My father was an engineer who worked for forty years on California’s maze of canals and levies. My mom went back to school when we were old enough and become a nurse’s assistant. They both treasured life and liberty.

          How dare you. How dare you casually dismiss millions of immigrants of different faiths out of hand. Your arrogance is stunning. I would like you to apologize to my late father and to my mother.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Your parents learned such virtues from the Christian USA. The Muslims are not supposed to give infidels freedom or power. You must fight for religious liberty, human rights, equality, and justice in your Islamic homeland.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Grace, that’s an opinion. People are allowed to choose what religion they follow. You did put this gentleman’s father down by generalizing again. Please apologize and remember that not everyone in a group is the same way. God Bless you for trying to help people understand, but people are not required to believe in God’s Word in the USA. They allow for all religions and no religion. What you say should not reflect on the people who are not like the group you are talking about (like atheists).
            Maybe you could start your posts with “Personally I look at it this way” so people know it’s your opinion, rather than being presented as facts.
            (I’m just trying to help)

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Sharon, thank you, but it’s not my opinion but a fact. The Muslims should apologize for the massacre of Christians done by fellow Muslims, and the atheists should apologize to the unborn babies. Islamic doctrines have no concept of religious freedom, as all other Non-judeo-christian religions and ideologies don’t. Let’s not be naive. Learn the doctrines and teachings. The world is for-ever a Wild West till Jesus Christ comes back. All religions and ideologies are a horrible thing as a dominant system for one group or another if followed accurately, except for Judeo-Christian values.

            Judeo-Christian religion alone protects everyone and conducts justice at the same time by being followed accurately. The Westerners have been taking granted the Christian religion for too long. On the other hand, Post-christian is a Sodomy. Mankind need Christianity to be civilized, not only to be saved. The West became Sodomic by equating Christianity with others. What do raw men desire? Immorality. Democracy works properly only under the Judeo-Christian principles and nothing else. Be realistic.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Wow Grace you aren’t familiar enough about our country to make conclusions like that.

            You have a very bad view of people in general from what I have gathered.

            Jesus said to love one another. What you say about people is not love, it’s hate. So stop thinking like we are in the times of the bible in this world. Jesus told us to not be of this world, meaning not to be like everyone around who is more about themselves than about Jesus. There are more people in America than you realize or you wouldn’t say all of these or all of those about people.

            You know the bible pretty well Grace, so now look at how people actually act and what they believe in and what kind of things they want from life. You will find the world isn’t completely evil and that it includes everyone not just Christians.

            Look at the cams on the corners of New York or even in Florida. Watch how the people deal with their lives in a busy city. Find out what the people in the small towns are like. Research it like a school project you want an Top Grade for. Look at the news and not just at the articles that include Christians. It will broaden your view of what people are like and will help you to not convict everyone in one group.

            I only want to help you Grace, so you have a better understanding of what you want to say before you say it. Like an American would, you know? God bless you!

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Sharon, everyone is a sinner. Romans chapters 3-6. Being Christian is the only way to be saved and also to be realistic about everything. Yes, you are right about our Lord Jesus, but we must be responsible for the culture we are in. I don’t hate but tell facts. Christianity can never be equated with anything else on earth. Being nice alone does not help anymore.

            Yes, all humans are created in our Creator God’s image and most are trying the best to just make another day, but we must combat against the society’s barbarism because there are real victims and also because our freedom and the children are at stake. We are living in a world where the atheists halt Bible clubs in a Christendom. American way of saying only appeased the atheists. I think Western Atheists should get corrected like rotten kids in a rich family should. They’ve been too spoiled. Thank you for talking with me, Sharon. The Lord bless you, too!!

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Anyone can be nice for a time, but only the Christians can uphold the human rights and the quest for the truth unconditionally. All others fail and contain abuses in the essential part.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            Your bigotry is astounding. My parents were both adults when they came to the US, and my extended families in Az-Zarqā and Beirut are gracious, wonderful people. And very Muslim. If you showed up at the house my father grew up in, my family would take you in without question. They would feed you, give you a place to sleep, and assist you in whatever way they could.

            Would you do the same if a Muslim showed up at your door in need of help?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Yes, hospitality is similar in most of enduring cultures. Omotenashi 😉 I’ve treated my Muslim neighbors when they were with me. TLHL, Christians alone love everyone, even the enemies, with the love of God and give up life to save the fellow humans. No raw humans could do that but only the true followers of Jesus Christ. Read the Holy Bible.

            This is the command of Jesus Christ: “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

            For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew chapter 5)

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            “Christians alone love everyone, even the enemies, with the love of God and give up life to save the fellow humans”

            Really? Try reading the Koran.

            “O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as witnesses to fair dealings and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just, that is next to piety. Fear Allah, indeed Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do.”(5:8)

            And those who, when tyranny strikes them, they defend themselves, And the recompense of evil is punishment like it, but whoever forgives and amends, he shall have his reward from Allah; surely He does not love the unjust. And whoever avenges himself after having been wronged – those have not upon them any cause [for blame]. The way (of blame) is only against those who oppress mankind, and wrongfully rebel in the earth. For such there is a painful doom. (42:39-42)

            The Hadiths also report the Prophet’s (PBUH) words on forgiveness.

            ‘Whoever suffers an injury done to him and forgives (the person responsible), Allah will raise his status to a higher degree and remove one of his sins.'(Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

            ‘Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong if they do evil.'(Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Koran elsewhere commands destruction or subdue of all infidels, and some Muslims are living it out. Christians alone live to benefit everyone unconditionally to the end like Lord Jesus did while conducting judicial justice. The lawfulness and customs of the land tells the nature of its major religion.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            So does the Bible. Or do you refuse to admit the Old Testament exists.

            Lady, Muslims didn’t start World War I. Christians did. Muslims didn’t march millions into the death camps, Christians did. Muslims didn’t massacre everyone when they captured Jerusalem, but the Christian Crusaders did.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Only the ancient Canaan. God wipes out the child-killing pervs by flood, fire, or foreign forces, all according to His sovereignty. Read Leviticus 18-20 to know why Canaan had to be wiped out. Israel were commanded not to touch other tribes, and those who followed Israel were protected and blessed. World wars were in a grand scale because the West has been mighty.

            Non-West was weak and voiceless until recent decades, although the local men oppressed women and minorities for-ever and ever, wartime or otherwise. Nazis were Darwinians and man(Hitler) worshipers like the atheists. They killed countless Christians. The Muslims killed everywhere under their dominions and massacred the Pilgrims first in Crusades. Once a war starts, it kills on every side.

          • Sharon_at_home

            The Old Testament is the same as what the Quran says about the events to my knowledge. Our religions are all originated from Abraham and his stories are in the OT.
            To address the other accusations against Christians doing these things…
            1. A teenage Serbian started WWI by shooting an Austrian Arch Duke which had a domino effect until the war began. It was started because of Politics stemming from the shooting.
            2. Your right, “Christians (did) march millions into the death camps” but you are ignoring the fact that the rest of the world abhorred what the Germans were doing and fought for it to stop. Far more Christians that fought against this abuse than who committed the abuse.
            3. The Christian Crusades was about land. I’ve researched it before. It was called the Christian Crusades because someone petitioned the Church to intervene, so they did. I have also read that many Christians were told to kill everyone and did it because they were ordered to. But that is an event that will always be debated about because it involves 2 or even 3 sides to it.”The first of the Crusades began in 1095, when armies of Christians from
            Western Europe responded to Pope Urban II’s plea to go to war against
            Muslim forces in the Holy Land. After the First Crusade achieved its
            goal with the capture of Jerusalem in 1099, the invading Christians set
            up several Latin Christian states, even as Muslims in the region vowed
            to wage holy war (jihad) to regain control over the region.”( History co m )

            I beg to differ about the Christians massacring everyone in Jerusalem when they ‘captured’ Jerusalem. If someone else can help me to an article that identifies this I’d appreciate it.

            Can you tell me why I’ve heard that Muslims won’t allow Jews or Christians to pray at their places within the Holy City. I’m surprised that Muslims would agree with that, being religious themselves. so please will you answer my quest for more information?

          • Sharon_at_home

            Can you help me with one of the verses for me? It’s the last one.
            Is it saying to wait until someone does good to you, before you do good to them?
            I am not criticizing, I am asking if I am misinterpreting it.
            I think at the end, it also says not to be involved with a sinners sin. The bible says the same.
            I have always found the Quran says a lot of things that are also said in the bible. Islam is directly from Abraham, as is Christianity, correct?
            Forgiveness is a biggie in God’s Word. He won’t forgive us if we don’t forgive others.
            Mostly the Gospel is about Jesus’ Love, and how he wants us to behave towards each other with Love.
            I’ve never seen or heard anything that says Allah loves us all. Have I just missed those verses? I’d really like to know.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            The last saying there is basically saying be good to people no matter how they treat you. It’s similar to Jesus’ command to forgive those who trespass against you.

            Islam considers itself the direct descendant of Judaism and Christianity. Mohammad (PBUH) is Allah’s final Prophet. Muslims consider Jesus, Moses, Abraham and a few others to be Prophets as well.

            The Koran has 114 surahs (chapters) and 113 of them begin with “In the name of Allah, the extremely loving and caring, the constantly loving and caring”. There’s a chapter named “Ar Rahmaan”, which refers to Allah as the extremely loving and caring. And every other aayah (verse) speaking of rahma (loving/mercy) should be included in this list as well.

            Notice that this rahmah is extended to every single creation of Allah, including non-believers.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Thank you so much. It was confusing to know our God and how he loves us, but when I thought Allah never showed his love it was like “why would you want someone who doesn’t say he loves you?” God says it all the time.
            We believe God loves everyone even the unbelievers should have a chance at repentance. I think the Quran says something about not being cleaned of the sins too. What happens to sinners who don’t repent in Islam.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            The Koran teaches that when the world ends all will be judged. Those rejected by Allah will go to Jahannam, our version of Hell. It has seven layers, much like Dante’s vision of Hell in Inferno.

            It’s important to note that as written in the Koran, Christians and Jews can enter paradise, if they obeyed the laws given by the Prophets. This is something the extremists ignore.

            Another difference between the Christian and Islamic view is that there are some teachings in the Koran and the ahadith that indicate that the punishment is not eternal, that Allah, in his mercy, will judge when a soul has suffered enough for their sins, and be allowed in paradise.

          • Sharon_at_home

            I believe the problem between Christianity is that they do not attribute Muhammad ( I’m sorry I can never remember how to spell a lot of things.)
            as a prophet. I think that is strictly within Islam that he was a prophet. Please forgive the ignorance about how to show respect to them.
            I’m going to tell you what I heard about Muhammad so you can tell me where I’m wrong, ok?
            Muhammad went into the desert and after a long time of wandering he met someone he believed was Gabriel. Who then told Muhammad the things of “God” that he was supposed to pass on to the people. We heard that when Muhammad returned home after that, that he was confused and almost jump from a cliff? Then after describing his vision, and saying he was God’s last prophet he basically took over the Islam faith and eventually created the Koran.

            I am confused by the verses that infer that Muhammad made the decisions With Allah; No one ever told God the way to use His power. Does it mean it literally, or in another way to help with understanding?

            I appreciate you helping me understand the areas I’m confused about. 😀

          • Sharon_at_home

            As a Christian she should. I certainly would. Anyone in need of help is a person in help, not anything else while you are helping them. Why should anyone turn away anyone in need for any reason. Except safety. If someone is alone and afraid then I would not expect them to open the door to a stranger. But I would expect them to find help from someone else.
            I’m sorry she has such a way with words… and insulted your family. She has a way of including everyone rather than stating her ideals less generally. I’ve tried to explain it to her but I guess she doesn’t always remember. I don’t agree with being disrespectful to anyone and I’m so sorry she made you feel that badly.
            I don’t know very many Muslims. Would you be offended if I asked you questions from time to time. I’d like to hear from a Muslim, rather than from articles. I’d like to know more about them so I can help others understand them. I am a Christian and that will never change, but I’m still interested in learning about others beliefs better.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            I strongly suspect that Grace struggles with some sort of mental issue.

            I haven’t been a Muslim for close to 35 years, but I’ll do my best. You’d probably do better to find a local mosque of Muslim Community Center, and ask them.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Oh I’m sorry! I guess I didn’t see that clearly in your post.
            I don’t know about Grace, she is a very good Christian/person but I think she was taught in a land that wasn’t Christian so although she knows the bible thoroughly she hasn’t the knowledge required to understand it so she can discuss Christianity beyond the scriptures. I think of her belonging to another part of the world but she really likes the limited knowledge that she has of the USA as well. She IS trying to do her duty to God, so I can’t help smiling at the way she tries.
            Everyone has their own way of looking at their religions and at the world.
            She really does sound like a person who has a little trouble with English as far as trying to say that people should follow Christ. I think the same, everyone should follow Christ, but I don’t get into the world’s sins if I can help it. I’d rather speak of the Gospel and Jesus’ love in a more personal way, but I’ve really found some people who want to discuss the differences of opinion that I know helps me understand them, and I give them the scriptures a from the bible to give them more of an understanding. Communication is always a good thing if it’s not done with insults or sarcasm. I hope you aren’t offended if I leave you with: God bless you! 😀

        • Johndoe

          The Bible isn’t needed in orders to value life or rights.

        • TheLastHonestLawyer

          Again, you speak for tens of thousands of people out if complete ignorance. My parents came her to continue their education. They decided to stay when the civil war in Lebanon made it unsafe for my mother to return.

          Lebanon, by the way, is almost half Christian. Jordan has possibly the oldest Christian community on Earth, with roots reaching back to the 1st Century CE. You know literally nothing about the area or the people.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Talk about the standing of the religion or ideology. Christian America brought literacy and freedom to the entire planet, except for those who refuse or abuse. Non-Judeo-christian religions have no concept of everyone’s human rights or freedom or equality to start with; you know that too well. On the other hand, secular humanism/atheism forces Sodomic immorality upon mankind, ranting freedom.

            If you are a former Muslim and now a secular atheist, you are just another case of mental slavery of the filthy Western pervs. Poor your parents. They didn’t bring you to America so that you could mimick the Western playboys and live beneath animals. The West is superior only if it follows Christianity.

            Western playboys show filthy tattooed skin everywhere like mad people, sleep around with anyone, party all the time while expecting others to feed them and calculate everything. They bash their own noble slender Christian ancestors although they can’t keep their marriage even for a few years and teach other people’s kids how to commit Sodomy. Observe if you have real brain cells. Secularists have no descendants. If you want you and your tribe to go down into the pits, keep mimicking them. God wipes out Sodom. Read Jude 1, too.

            Ex-christian secular Westerners are living out their own Roman/Greek porn stories and something worse and are demanding mankind to follow their mental illness only because they are still rich and powerful. I really feel sorry for all the yesteryears’ Westerners. The West acts worthless if it has no Christian morality. Men are destined to live out the doctrine he believes, whatever it is.

            You must repent of your unbelief and trust in Jesus to get saved. “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household. There is salvation in no other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts chapter 16 and chapter 4)

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            My siblings and I were born here, madam, stop making terrible assumptions. And I have never been a “playboy.”

            I hate to say it, but you are a lost cause. You are so blinded by your sheer hatred of anything outside your bubble of extremism that you reject facts, attack billions of people with lies, and refuse to accept that people like me can live happy, fulfilling lives with a different religion or no religion at all.

            I really feel sorry for you.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Yes, whatever. It is a fact that you adopted the depraved secular Western way of thinking and living. The Westerners and individuals like you should stop bashing the historic people who were better. There is no happiness in killing the unborns and engaging in immorality; that’s why moderners take drugs and commit suicide. All humans were morally better than the baby-killing Sodomic moderners living in rich secular nations. You know humans don’t bash their own ancestors but the godless secular whites do. That should be stopped, too. Exodus chapter 20.

    • Johndoe

      Sorry hon but atheists are Americans too…..unlike yourself

  • summergirl27

    The FFRF said that it was a “victory, for a captive audience to be free from indoctrination in a public school setting”?….It is quite obvious, that their parents know, and want their children in that class reading the bible, and for good reason….This is exactly why our country has fallen so far. God has been removed from school and the public square…..By the way atheists, they are really being indoctrinated in the class room, taught by government teachers!

  • Oboehner

    Guess the atheists don’t want any competition for their religion.

  • http://www.gmail.com/ David van Heerden

    Those third graders must have been so horrible to the FFRF! Those kids should quit being so nasty to the fags and queers from Wisconsin. I do rather wonder what they are doing. It must be the homophobic crayon drawings showing Dad, Mom, kids, the house and the dog.