Elderly Ex-Vicar ‘Marries’ Male Model 54 Years Younger, Wants Church of England to ‘Move On’ With the Times

EASTRY, Kent — A retired vicar with the Church of England has “wed” a young Romanian model 54 years his junior, and now wants the Church to get with the times in regard to same-sex relationships.

Philip Clements, 78, tied the knot to Florin Marin, 24, last month at the registry office in Ramsgate after meeting on a dating website two years ago.

“I’ve been a long time looking for you, Florin. And then I found you. Where have you been the last 78 years? Mostly non-existent,” he said.

Marin has defended the relationship and the 54-year age gap, stating that he prefers the elderly.

“All my friends know that my type is old people because they have more experience in life,” he said. “From the young people I have dated in the past, I have learned nothing.”

Clements, who served as the vicar of Kent for 50 years, says that he wants the Church of England to change its ways and become accepting of the feelings of homosexuals.

“As a priest, I want the Church to think seriously about this issue and to change its teaching and rules to allow clergy as well as lay members of the Church to marry someone of the same gender if that is how they feel,” he told Kent Live.

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Clements said that he thinks Church officials mean well, but “they do not understand this aspect of human nature.”

Reg Scarborough of Delfside expressed dismay over Clements’ remarks in a recent letter to the editor of the East Kent Mercury, comparing Clements to Judas, who sat under Christ’s tutelage for three years, but missed the mark in understanding the truths Jesus was seeking to convey.

“We now have the ex-vicar of Eastry, who has spent even more time in Christian service without understanding the Bible or Christianity, now trying to force the Church into his views about marrying gay clergy,” he noted. “I cannot see why the Church should also take any notice of him, especially as he can these days get a [secular] civil ceremony.”

“If he wishes to have the civil ceremony and go his own way, that is a matter for his own conscience, but he should stop trying to force other committed Christians to deny their faith,” Scarborough said.

Clements told reporters that Scarborough’s remarks were “over the top” in comparing him to Judas.

“I’m still a Christian, and loyal and faithful to Jesus and His teaching,” he claimed. “I know that evangelical fundamentalists will say this sort of thing. I think the Church needs to move on to understand life for many in the 21st century.”

“Jesus taught us to love our neighbors and not to judge. Jesus never once commented on this particular topic,” Clements asserted.

Jesus said in Matthew 19:4-5, “Have ye not read that He which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they twain shall be one flesh?”

Romans 1:26-27, in referring to homosexuality as counter to God’s design for the “natural use of the woman,” states, “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.”‘


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  • Toro Keng

    ==.!!
    Another joke….

  • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

    This is pure 100% evil and disgusting beyond words!!!

    • Colin Rafferty

      Why is it evil? Disgusting is in the eye of the beholder, but evil is objective truth. How are those two hurting others?

      • Ezra

        When you devalue the truth in favor of a lie then all society, all people, and all individuals are hurt.

        However, we know from Holy Scripture that in the latter days people WILL exchange the truth for a lie, thus I am not at all concerned other than the fact that no-astute innocents will be led astray.

        BTW, we are to love these sinful people such that some may yet be snatched from eternal death.

        • Colin Rafferty

          What is the lie? Doug Bristow says it’s evil, and you say it’s a lie. Where’s the lie? Do you not believe they love each other? That the ex-vicar doesn’t believe that the Church needs to move on?

          • Ezra

            You have confused a lot of ideas. We are to love one another as God has loved us. We may not lust one another EXCEPT that marriage between a man and a woman was given to quell that fire. Of course marriage also is a social construct to propagate the species and bind families into relationships. The biological relationship is always open to the conception of a new human being (as a result of matrimonial love). That is not the case with the homosexual act/relationship, thus the lie against Nature.

            I do not know the gentlemen and thus must take their profession that they love each other as well as lust each other. The Church has no need to “move on” as everything about homosexuality has been said in Holy Scripture. The lie the old man lives is that for decades he has preached one thing but (apparently) lived another. That is the lie of the hypocrite.

          • Colin Rafferty

            Oh I see, you think that only people that can possibly procreate may marry. So if someone is sterile, or infertile, or past menopause, they should not marry, because it would be a lie.

          • Ezra

            You said that I didn’t and I do not appreciate when people try to put words in my mouth (they are usually dirty, lol), The exceptions you point out do not qualify as a “lie” – they are the brokenness of human life DUE TO the function of nature, not personal will.

            I am always amazed that otherwise intelligent people fail to reason from all perspectives in order to justify their own deviations from the norm.

          • Colin Rafferty

            Two men may love each other, but nature made them both men. That’s not their fault.

          • Ezra

            Fault? Really? We are what we are through a biological process. Fault is the last word I would use to describe how we became a male or a female. While ‘good luck’ springs to mind, as a Christian I know that God determines who we are (he knew us before we were created). BTW, the biological law that determines our genetics was created by God and functions perfectly. However, there are times when Nature goes awry such as when an individual gets an extra gene in the process. While it introduces hardship it also allows opportunity for building character. (Neither appears to be the case with the geezer vicar and his boy toy.

            In short, yes, they may choose to love each other and participate in a charade, but real Christians are not fooled (in fact, many non-Christians are not fooled either)

          • Colin Rafferty

            I’m sorry, you can’t have it both ways. If God makes two people love each other, though he made them unable to conceive, what difference does it make how God made them unable to conceive?

            If a man & woman are past menopause, they are unable to conceive. If it is two men, they are unable to conceive. In each pair, God made them that way. Neither pair should be able to marry, or both. There is no reason to allow one and discriminate against the other.

          • Ezra

            I do not know that your last paragraph states it properly. Sarah was well past menopause when she and Abraham (himself old and limp) conceived and bore Isaac. And there are many more examples in Scripture (as well as the Annals of Medicine if you research) to show that the possibility of conception may not be foreclosed in all instances just because of age.

            But the better response is that God (through his created process we call Nature) ordained a man and a woman to marry, conceive children and populate the earth. That cannot happen between two men or two women. That is a “fault” and it is Nature herself discriminating against two men in “wedlock”. Same discrimination as between a man and his horse or his sheep or his dog – it is the discrimination of Nature against our contrary wishes otherwise.

          • Colin Rafferty

            Comparing what two consenting adults do to bestiality is insulting and demeaning.

          • Parodyx

            Precisely why they do it, I’m guessing.

          • Ezra

            Quit being stupid, Colin. You know very well I did not compare the Vicar and his lover to beasts (although I think the Bible does do that in one or two places). Why would you make such a horrid statement? Other than in an evil mind would the illustration as to the natural process of Nature’s discrimination be seen as demeaning or insulting! You stooped pretty low to come up with that insult. (Don’t they teach people how to reason in school anymore?)

          • Colin Rafferty

            You didn’t compare those two specifically, but all same-sex relationships.

            “That is a “fault” and it is Nature herself discriminating against two men in “wedlock”. Same discrimination as between a man and his horse or his sheep or his dog”

            If you are going to make an horrible statement, at least have the decency to take responsibility for it.

          • Ezra

            “You didn’t compare those two SPECIFICALLY, but all same-sex relationships.” (emphasis added)

            Case rested. Some people seem incapable of differentiating the general from the specific. You are one such.

          • Colin Rafferty

            Fine. I’ll change what I said.

            Comparing what an entire class of pairs of consenting adults do to bestiality is insulting and demeaning.

          • Ezra

            Sometimes the truth is unpleasant is it not?

            However, I re-visited the original statement to see if I missed something and I discover that it is you who missed the point (now why would I not be surprised at that??)

            The point was NOT the bestiality that you mistakenly concluded. If you go back and look you can see that the discussion was about “fault” that Nature uses men and women, male and female to birth children to populate the earth SOMETHING WHICH TWO MEN cannot do because of how Nature discriminates. The follow-up to that point is that Nature discriminates against a multitude of things. You sir jumped to bestiality to bludgeon me with even as that was NOT the point being made. Now again, I will conclude that such an accusation is evil.

          • Colin Rafferty

            Please take responsibility for your own words. Your multitude of things was strictly limited to bestiality.

            “Same discrimination as between a man and his horse or his sheep or his dog”

          • Ezra

            I see clearly you are incompetent to reason and follow an argument due to your prejudices. Respond when you are stronger and can hear truth.

          • Colin Rafferty

            So please explain to me how men having sex with animals is related to same-gender sex. And how it’s different from post-hysterectomy mixed-gender sex. What is the truth that I am unable to hear?

          • Sharon_at_home

            Do you believe you are better than others because you are a Christian? It sounds like that. Don’t forget Pride is a sin as well.

          • Sharon_at_home

            All lust is like beasts in nature. It’s natural for them to do whatever they do with each other just as it is for all mankind whether it’s male and female or not. Because lust is a sin too but it’s a natural part of us.
            But that doesn’t mean you push about their sin. I’ve enjoyed some of your posts but then you lost me. You have sounded very reasonable except the way you showed no compassion when you were teaching it. Jesus was always compassionate when He was alive. It is written that lust between a married is acceptable to procreate, I think. But it’s still lust and they do what they want to do while having sex.
            And that’s one of the things they want. Freedom to marry the same way regular people can, because they are just regular people too.
            Forget about how they have sex, and look at them as people. Deal with the sin privately and not in public. Because God wants us to forgive just as He forgives us and it’s written that every individual could turn to Jesus at some point in their lives. I can find the scriptures if you like, but I suspect you know of them.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Colin it was Doug Bishop who made a blatant comment – something about homosexuals being like beast. I blasted him for his comment bluntly too.

          • Colin Rafferty

            OMG, I never thought that you said anything like that. I am certain that my comment was responding to Doug Bishop, and if not, I never intended that. Jeepers, he’s a maniac. I much prefer our discussions.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Can I make sure what “you never thought that you said anything like that” is exactly, please?
            He deserves everything I said. He’s not acting like a Christian in the way I was taught. And really that’s what I told him. Oh Dear was I rude too?
            I like our discussions better too. My view of Jesus is obviously not his I guess.
            You and a few others have helped me understand more about the LGBT community andI haven’t had a chance to talk to others about. I can understand your plight even though I have not had anything bad happen to anyone in front of me. You can imagine how I’d react I’m sure.
            I rarely get to talk to the gays I know and I know it’s a sensitive subject to discuss especially with a Christian. You’ve helped me see your side much clearer than I did. I hope our conversations help others to be understanding with each other. It’s much better to pass information back and forth without the accusations. God bless you Colin and the others that helped me I thank, and I hope you know who you are. I am awful with names! lol
            I thought it was maybe why Ezra was denying having said it. Sometimes these conversations are crazy to follow. Ezra isn’t as a hateful speaker as Doug. At least he tries to use scripture to explain his view rather than call you names like Doug did. 🙂

          • Colin Rafferty

            I thought you thought I had blamed you for comparing same-sex marriage to bestiality. That Doug Bishop is a interesting character, to say the least. Ezra, too.

            I’m really glad you’ve been willing to listen. I honestly come on these forums to try to understand where people are coming from, and to try to help them to understand other people.

            BTW, I know it may seem it from my views, but I’m not actually gay. 🙂 I just have a strong sense of justice, and understand what they’re going through. It doesn’t bother me if someone thinks I am, because I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it.

          • Sharon_at_home

            oops sorry. in just one post you said something that made me think you were, but it didn’t matter to me. I can accept anyone as a friend because I don’t dwell on the sin, I guess. I believe the conviction and punishment of sins are God’s responsibility because I can only know a person so much, but God can see whether a person is pure in heart and decide what he will justly do in each person’s case.
            I trust God because He has shown me that he blesses me often in a variety of ways. He’s helped me out of situations too.
            But that doesn’t give me the right to punish sinners for their sin. What too many Christians seem to do is focus on the sin of how they have sex, and not on Jesus’ desire for us to love everyone. We are Only to tell the sinners the Gospel and bring them to Jesus and only if they are willing. God said straight out that he doesn’t want people to come to him unwillingly. He knows that some people will never turn to him and whether it’s a waste of time to try even. See you on another post! 😀

          • Parodyx

            Bristow?

          • Colin Rafferty

            Him or Ezra. I get all the names confused, and I was just quoting the previous poster.

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            Homosexuality is no more than bestiality between same sex partners.

          • Colin Rafferty

            BTW, that’s also an example of hateful speech. But I’m sure you’ll refuse to take the blame for saying it.

            And it doesn’t make sense at all. It’s just a gratuitous insult.

            Do you understand what consent means?

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            God made mankind to be the Glory of His creation. We are not to act like the beast of the fields do.

            That is why human same sex sex is no more than bestiality among humans.

          • Colin Rafferty

            Oh that’s interesting. Why is same gender sex like the beasts , bit different gender sex not?

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            Please redo your response to make it understandable.

          • Colin Rafferty

            You say we should not act like beasts of the field. Why is gay sex acting beasts, but straight sex not acting like beasts?

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            God is Spirit. He created mankind in His likeness and His image. We are therefore spirit in a body of flesh and made to be the Glory of His creation. God gave us the gift of sex to be enjoyed by a husband and wife for their pleasure and for procreation. In that environment He puts His blessing on sex. In any other environment He does not bless sexual relations. We are not to act like the beasts of the fields do.

            That is why human same sex sex aka homosexuality is no more than bestiality among humans.

          • Colin Rafferty

            Once again, you are just blaming your God. How boring.

            Honestly, I wish you could see exactly how hateful your comments are. And how cowardly your excuses are. Does it make you feel good too spew such bile on these comment boards? Do you really think your God is so hateful that he wants you to do this?

            Or will you at least take responsibility for choosing to write such venom?

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            Everything I have told you is the truth of God and His Holy Word.

            This is a Christian website and Christian blog for that website.

            Did you really think you would not have to be bothered by Christians giving you the perspective and truth from God and His Word aka The Bible?

            The words of me or any other man amount to nothing but the Word of God is living and eternal just as He is. The Words of God bring Life and Life everlasting. The words of men that are not guided by His Holy Spirit lead to death and destruction for all eternity.

            Christ Jesus is the only hope for mankind to save us from ourselves and the evil that men do.

          • Colin Rafferty

            Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jesus is forcing me to write hateful comments that demean others.

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            To me what I said is not hate as I really do think that what these two are doing is disgusting and evil. That is my opinion based on all that I have told you. For that I will not apologize no matter what you think of me or how much you demean me for stating my opinion which by the way is God’s opinion also. God hates no one and neither do I but He hates our sins and because I love Him I hate our sins also.
            ——————

            John 3:16-17New King James Version (NKJV)

            16 For
            God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever
            believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

          • Colin Rafferty

            Sure it’s hate. You think that two people, who you don’t know, who have not harmed another person, are disgusting and evil because they love each other. If that was all, that would be bad enough.

            But you feel this hate so strongly that you feel the need to tell the world.

            And you are also a coward because your only excuse for doing any of this is because you think God feels this way.

            I hope it’s clear that you disgust me. And not because someone else said so, but for the reasons I just said. Which you are incapable of doing yourself.

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            People the world over are dying because they believe the lies of Satan. As a Christian it is my job and also the job of all Christians to preach the Gospel and the Truth of God and His Holy Word.

            Again I will not compromise or apologize for doing so and no other true child of God would either.
            ————-

            Mark 16:14-16New King James Version (NKJV)

            The Great Commission

            14 Later
            He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked
            their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those
            who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Have you ever saved anyone by saying “I hate you” and would you like to come to know Jesus and the book that tells me to hate you?
            Please do tell. I’d love to hear it. I’d like to know how to approach people with that approach and bring people to Jesus. I’ve never thought about doing it that way before.
            Gee you have brought me down to being sarcastic you make me so angry with some of your comments.
            Tell me how your approach gets people to come to know about Jesus’ love. Because I don’t believe it would.
            I think every Atheist has had it pointed out that this is a Christian board at least once, but because they are unbelievers they want to change our minds in a similar way that we want to them to make a change when we speak of the Gospels.
            I believe that a public board means everyone is allowed to speak their minds. So they have the same rights on this board as Christian’s do. See how that works?

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            I do not hate anyone. Stop with the snowflake hyperbole already

          • Sharon_at_home

            Your words belie that.
            And stop being rude to me because you feel like you are better than I.
            You aren’t.
            I’m just as much God’s Child as you are and I was taught about what Jesus said because it is the main thing and Jesus spoke about love constantly.

            It sounds like you don’t know the Gospel if you feel this way. It’s not just about repenting our sins, or telling others about their sin in a way to make them feel like less that a person and it is also about the way God wanted us to live with Love. Maybe you should read the parts about Jesus again.

          • Parodyx

            It sure sounds like hate to me, Doug. But then, you do post on Lady Checkmate’s channel.

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            I have the mind of Christ. It is not what I think but what God thinks.and I have already told you the truth on that.

          • Sharon_at_home

            He had two of my comments deleted Chris because of what I told him. I think it would be best to just ignore his comments. He wouldn’t recognize the truth in my words about his behaviour. I think it offended him.. ironic don’t you think? RME

          • Parodyx

            You are what I would call a reasonable Christian. I know you’re relatively new here so you’re in the best possible position to see the damage that the fundamentalists can do with some of their very un-Christian statements. I hope you speak out against it in real life. I appreciate that you are here.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Thank you for the compliments.
            I try to walk like Jesus wants us to in all ways. I often fail, but I know Jesus is here to help me have the victory next time.

            I would speak out if I was ever presented with a situation, but that would be unlikely in the area I live in right now. There is such a mix of people here that you couldn’t live here if you were a discriminating kind of people. (unless you just didn’t speak out about it of course)

            I believe in standing up for Jesus, so that’s what I do. I just believe Jesus would always want us to be kind no matter what the sin. He wanted us to love one another too. Those people look at the sin and focus on it, instead of encouraging ‘sinners’ to repent and look to Jesus.

            I guess I have a different view on Christianity than they do, and I expect it is because they grew up in a Church that focused on the sins, not the good things that God is offering us. I was brought to a Church that focus’ on the blessings you will have and not the sins themselves. I love the attitude and had never felt that way about any church before. Jesus is supposed to be a role model to live like, in my Church.

            TBH I’m not being very Christian when I am telling them they are not living like Jesus said to. It’s up to each of us how much we believe in the bible and how to apply the scriptures too. I have tried to be encouraging to get them to change, but too often I think I sound like I am being critical, and I don’t mean to. It’s hard for me when people are not kind. I’ve never understood the attitude.
            I do appreciate what you said. It helps me to know that maybe I can make a difference and help others in a way that isn’t apparently the norm. What Jesus wanted us to be like, to me, is far more important than the fact that people sin and need to come to Jesus. A sin is a sin, is a sin to Jesus. And I won’t ignore the sin if I’m encouraging people, but if people could realize what Jesus really wanted, maybe more people would listen. Too many people think He must’ve been a cruel man to treat people the way they have been treated. He is Love. Not hate.

          • Chris

            “Everything I have told you is the truth of God and His Holy Word.”

            Just running that sentence through my fundie translator – everything that you’ve written is YOUR opinion based upon YOUR interpretation of YOUR book. Notice the prominence of the word ‘your’ in that translation?

          • Sharon_at_home

            Stop saying that!
            No matter what your truth is, it should be polite. You don’t have to be so rude when you are saying that you FEEL that they are sinning because of God’s Word. Say it without the rudeness please. Blessings.

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            I refuse to stop speaking the truth. It is not my fault or my problem that you and others like you are too delicate to handle it.

          • Parodyx

            Being a fundamentalist Christian doesn’t give you carte blanche to be rude to people and call them snowflakes, Doug.

          • Chris

            And you refuse to be polite, obviously. I wonder how you’d feel if people started to responding to you the same way.

          • Chris

            “We are not to act like the beasts of the fields do.”

            But you have previously written that homosexuality isn’t found in nature. So which is it?

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            I never said that.

          • Chris

            You said homosexuality wasn’t natural. To quote you “Not natural for mankind because God made us above the animals,…”

            Two things. 1) Homosexuality is found in nature. 2) We are defined as animals. Here’s a quote from a Christian site “It is true that humans differ from other animals in terms of intelligence.
            However, from a biological perspective, humans are classified as animals!”

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            Like I said…….

          • Chris

            Like you said? That it is or it isn’t found in nature. You’ve claimed both. Make up your mind.

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            God made mankind to be the Glory of His creation. We are not to act like the beasts of the fields do.

            That is why human same sex sex is no more than bestiality among humans.

          • Chris

            That doesn’t answer my question. Is homosexuality found in nature or is it not.

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            You misunderstood what I said so that is my answer.

          • Chris

            So your answer is dodge and sophistry?
            Because God made humans [even though we evolved] to be His glory of creation we shouldn’t act like the beasts of the field.

            Let’s look at the similarities between us and beasts.
            Beasts eat and so do we.
            The beasts drink and so do we.
            The beasts walk and so do we.
            The beasts see things and so do we.
            The beasts hear things and so do we..
            The beasts fight and so do we.
            The beasts have heterosexual sex and so do we.
            The beasts have homosexual sex and so do we.
            And it’s only in the last one that, according to you, makes humans the equal of beasts.

            Look up the term ‘special pleading’ sometime.

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            You are the one who is trolling me after the fact that I had left the discussion. We have no common ground and I reached my limit of suffering fools with you so good bye.

          • Chris

            So I’m a fool? Then you sir are, according to the gospels, are another sinner going to hell. And since when is asking you to give a straight answer to a question trolling? Never mind Doug I forgive ya.
            Bye.

          • Sharon_at_home

            You are very rude!
            That’s a disgusting thing to say! Treat people the way you want to be treated for Jesus’ sake!
            Jesus would never have been vocally disgusted with sinners because he came to save us, not punish us. He saved us by dying but he would never say anything like the insult you just gave to some of the posters.
            A rude Christian: just doesn’t seem like those 2 words should ever be together.
            There was a day that your mouth would have been soapy for saying anything like that to anyone, even the nosy neighbours.

            Don’t you go around saying you are a Christian because you are not following Jesus who told us how he wanted to behave with love and what you said was not love.

            You are the type of person that makes other people Hate Christians and they will NEVER come to Jesus BECAUSE of you. I wouldn’t want to hang around someone who so obviously hates me either.

            Pray believe me that the way this man behaved is not what Jesus wanted us to behave. Not all Christians are like him.

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            If the truth is rude and hateful to you, I would advise you to grow up.

          • Sharon_at_home

            That’s funny. I’m 60 years old so I am pretty sure I’ve grown up.
            No the truth is not rude or hateful to me, but you on the other hand are not reflecting the Love of Jesus with the way you are wording things.
            If anyone needs to grow up it’s you. I follow Jesus and try to walk like him as he wanted us all to. You on the other hand like to call people rude unnecessary things, and use the scriptures to back up your own feelings.
            I put scripture in another reply to you.
            You must know that Jesus said to treat each other as we would treat ourselves. Try living the Golden Rule and use your reason to realize that whether they are sinners or not, Jesus talked about love not punishments for people’s sins when he was talking to the multitudes. How can you miss Jesus’ message?

          • Ezra

            Yes he did, but he talk also of hell for those who rejected the message of love.

          • Sharon_at_home

            They are given until Jesus comes to convert. He wants all to come to Him and He wouldn’t want us to miss even one who changed their minds. Part of the message about their sins is about going to hell; they need to hear the message of Love with love to be able to hear about the Jesus and Salvation before they will consider any change.
            Ezra I go very strictly with what Jesus said, how he said it, and what He wanted for His creation. He told us the sins and the punishment if they don’t repent; he told us how to behave – Shine your light – and reflect His Image. He gave us the command to show love to everybody and to spread the message of Jesus’ Salvation everywhere and no matter how determined sinners can be, there is still a chance because God can do anything. He’s the one who chooses and enables any of us to do many things in our life as a Christian. He has complete control and none of us should worry about sinners who reject the Word and yes wipe your hands of their dust, there is still hope that the sinner will hear it from another source and look to Jesus at a time determined by God. No one can say what God will do, no one. His ways are different than ours.

            Don’t you think if God didn’t have a purpose/reason for allowing homosexuals to exist, they wouldn’t exist – and forget telling me it’s a learned behaviour. I don’t believe that because no one has shown me proof of that. I doubt there would be a legitimate site or study about it anyway.
            God created everything on the earth and controls everything except our free will. But He still knows what will happen as He can view it far beyond what we can see.
            God is Love, so why would He want us to be unkind to anyone even – our enemies. We are to love our enemies and treat them well. If you view sinners as enemies then I guess you interpret the bible differently, and I apologize for anything I said that was in any way offensive. I try to keep my posts impersonal and respectful, but sometimes I miss a spot when I go over it to listen to what it sounds like to be sure everything was in place.
            God bless you Ezra I praise the Lord for you as a Saint. Love Jesus (especially!) Pray continuously. And love everyone.

          • Florenca Mcdowell

            Sharon, please stop posting you talk about not judging people and YET YOU ARE CLEARLY JUDGING ANYONE WHO SAYS HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN. STOP STOP BTW this man is not a Christian and I take offense of people like you telling Christians how they MUST BEHAVE IN YOUR EYES

          • Colin Rafferty

            But it’s okay for you to tell people how to behave.

          • Chris

            Of course. It’s not wrong when fundies do it.

          • Chris

            Then by your own argument please stop criticizing others for judging when you are doing the same thing.

            In any case a judgemental attitude is when people consistently judge others NOT do so occasionally. Sharon does has not displayed a judgemental attitude but you and Doug do.

          • Sharon_at_home

            I do apologize Florenca as I realized that in some of the earlier posts I have sounded judgmental and have changed how I talk so I won’t be rude anymore. I accept responsibility for judging people and I have stopped (and repented) and can express myself just as well without the accusations.
            First of all I Am a Christian Florenca and I’m trying to tell other Christians that they shouldn’t show hate towards the gays because we are supposed to love each other not hate. Tell them about their sin in a way that won’t offend them because Jesus wants them to turn to God and spouting hate isn’t what Jesus wants for us. You and me. The Saints he’s called. The gospel shows clearly that Jesus wanted us to deal with other people’s sins in a loving manner not in a hateful manner.
            God IS love. Can you honestly say this is the way Jesus wanted us to behave towards one another?
            Telling a person about their sin is important but I think Jesus made it clear that everything we do should be done with love. He didn’t necessarily act the way he wants us to act because he is God and was teaching them something they had never been able to have before: Salvation.
            Gays are just like us except how they have sex. Personally I think sex is a private thing. I wouldn’t want to have someone talk about my sex like people do theirs any more than any other Christian would. Why do you think they want it broadcasted to the world? Sin can be discussed without hatred of people. We have had a lot of good discussions on this board before. Because people weren’t accusing each other, they were finding out about Jesus’ love and salvation in a gentler way and they weren’t upset about it. If nothing else the fact that I can discuss these things with them and they allow me to without getting upset with me seems like a big step for them but really they are always reasonable, but they react when people say something they bad about themselves.
            I just want to love every one and not have hate inside of me.
            God bless and keep you Florenca!
            Oh and please please stop using caps, it really isn’t necessary to yell what you want to say because people will read them without the Caps on too. I would appreciate it, please.

          • Sharon_at_home

            But you are allowed to tell me how to behave ( or how not to behave) like your religion is the ONE that spells out what a Christian should be?
            I feel that by saying that people are bad PEOPLE for sinning is wrong. Their sin is wrong, not the people. You need to focus on telling people about their sin, not that they are bad people because of their sin.
            I realized I was sounding judgmental and have tried to write without it. I apologize for that.
            I will stand for what I said about how Christians are supposed to treat people who sin.
            And by the way, “people like me” are no different than you are. They may sin differently but the people can be good people; even homosexuals.
            I honestly believe that the way you and others have been posting will be more likely to put people off learning about Christ because if you are so cruel in the way you say things about them/ to them, they would not want to be like you.
            And by the way. I am a Christian. I’m Apostolic and I am a Saint. Do not refer to me as “people like me” when you obviously don’t know me and have probably not read what I say and about why I say it. and yet you still tell me what I am wrong about.
            I think you must be a Catholic who was brought up on threats of Hell if you do not toe the line. My husband used to be a Catholic and he said for the last 10+ minutes after Mass, the priest used to talk about how they were All sinners and were destined for hell unless they don’t sin ever. He also said at the time the mass was said in Latin and only the part that condemned everyone to Hell was said in English. It didn’t seem like repenting worked to absolve you of the sin, so if you sinned you were going to Hell. As if everyone including the Priests weren’t sinners of some sort.
            Catholics have a very different perception about the bible and it seems about religion itself. The Catholic religion is not right about all of it. Your behaviour does not match what Jesus said we were supposed to act like. It’s very well laid out in the Gospel, and Jesus made it clear for us to understand. I suggest you read the Gospel over, being aware of the things Jesus said we should be like. Besides the Gospel is the one of the most important parts of the bible to be followed. Jesus is the only way to Salvation and he told us how to get that Salvation and not just by not sinning either, He told us how to behave about pretty well anything that we could deal with in our lives. Don’t you believe that?

          • Dianne

            Very well said Sharon. God Bless you.😇

          • Sharon_at_home

            Thank you! God bless you too!

          • Parodyx

            Despite the fact it has nothing to do with bestiality.

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            A common oft repeated argument in favor of homosex is that animals do it so it must be natural. Homosex and bestiality along with various other perversions are sins of sexual immorality.

          • Parodyx

            It is found throughout nature, therefore natural.
            I don’t share your rather odd definition of “perversion”. You are certainly at complete odds with the mental health community in calling homosexuality “perversion”. Because it’s not.

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            Not natural for mankind because God made us above the animals, in His likeness and image, and gave us a soul.

          • Parodyx

            Anyone who has ever owned a dog will tell you it has a soul. You are a purveyor of faith-based hate.

          • Chris

            First homosexuality is found in nature. That which is found in nature is natural, therefore homosexuality is natural. Secondly we evolved.

          • Chris

            You never answered the question.

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            By definition it is a perversion.

          • Parodyx

            Whose definition?

          • Ezra

            Actually not true. You’ve bought in to misinformation – IOW, a lie.

          • Parodyx

            Right, because science lies to us.

            And of course your religion didn’t get it wrong, because when is Christianity EVER wrong? All 35,000 denominations of you.

          • Ezra

            What an idiotic statement to say that science lies to us. As to 35,000 denominations what a hoot. No wonder you people are not to be believed. Are you for real?

          • Parodyx

            What exactly is your problem with my statement, EZRA?

          • Ezra

            My problem with it is that it was idiotic and not based upon reality, reason or logic.

          • Parodyx

            Just sounds like a garden variety bigot cop-out answer to me. Of course it’s based on logic. I wouldn’t base it on fundamentalist Christianity.

          • Ezra

            You say logic, I say goofball science. There are too many of you out and about in the world these days who apparently attended cupcake college.

          • Parodyx

            So what is “goofball science” to you – science that proves to you that your discrimination against homosexuals is wrong and pointless? That’s not cupcake college, that’s facts. That’s the real world.

          • Ezra

            Only in your strange (and perverted world). If you have nothing else to say except your worn out claims then don’t bother to post again. I don’t have time for your games.

          • Parodyx

            You are unbelievable. Because I side with science on the subject of
            human sexuality you think I resort to “worn out claims”. And you
            continue to suggest that I’m homosexual myself when I’m not – who’s the
            one playing games here?

          • Oboehner

            Rape, murder, incest, cannibalism, torture, bestiality, etc. are all found in nature so according to you – natural.

          • Parodyx

            Here we go again, back to the same acts of abuse which homosexuality isn’t. Is this a fun game for you?

          • Oboehner

            Here we go again using lame nonsense about gay being natural and running to hide when someone points out that your logic makes all the other things the occur in nature natural as well – by the exact same standard.

          • Parodyx

            The response to that is still the same response it has always been, the same response you’ve gotten from other people, the same response you will always hear from anyone halfway reasonable: CONSENT.

            Which, not coincidentally, is the word YOU unfailingly run hiding from- every single time.

          • Oboehner

            You stated if it happens in nature it’s normal, you lying bro?

          • Parodyx

            I’ll play your game. I stand by my statement. Now you get to explain to me why you think rape and torture are normal.

          • Oboehner

            You stated gay is normal because it occurs in nature, therefore if it occurs in nature it’s normal – otherwise you lie.

          • Parodyx

            Correct. Homosexuality occurs in nature. Rape and torture do not.

          • Oboehner

            Lying doesn’t help your argument.

          • Parodyx

            So stop lying then. Rape and torture don’t occur naturally. Anyway they are actions. Homosexuality DOES occur naturally and is not an action, but a state of being.

          • Oboehner

            My son and I recently witnessed 10-15 male ducks gang-raping a female (who repeatedly tried to get away). Have you ever seen a cat with a torturing a mouse, or heard the death scream of a rabbit caught in the talons of an owl?
            You also neglected to address cannibalism, incest, and pedophilia which also occur in nature so therefore according to you are all natural.
            Homosexuality is a state of being – being mentally/emotionally ill.

          • Parodyx

            None of those things is what any reasonable person would call torture (or incest or pedophilia). The animal kingdom has its own set of rules for what takes place. Cats eat mice. Owls eat rabbits.

            Since the medical world has no issue with homosexuality, I don’t either. And your reason boils down simply to the superstition you were raised with.

          • Oboehner

            Now we are attempting to create different rules to justify you lame ridiculous statements?
            Animals mate out of instinct, for example when a whitetail buck is in the rut, it will “breed” anything that resembles a doe (including each other). My wife’s aunt one sent her a postcard depicting a buck doing a German Shepherd, so according to you bestiality is natural.
            The honest medical world know homosexuality is a mental/emotional disorder. Nothing changed since the APA first put it on their list except political pressure.

          • Parodyx

            Bestiality is defined as a human being having sex with an animal. It’s not defined as an animal having sex with another animal. The APA changed their stance because they got better data and it’s only gotten better since then. I can’t really explain what’s going on with anyone stupid enough to believe you can lobby a medical organization. Especially when you are a marginalized group with little to no power as it was with homosexuals in the 1970s, but I get that you need your confirmation bias provided by hate groups.

          • Oboehner

            Cross species is cross species no matter who does it. Then homo must be two humans and not two animals – so you lie again.

            “The APA changed their stance because they got better data.” Another lie, it was political period, no new data, just PC BS.

            I can’t really explain what’s going on with anyone stupid enough to believe you can’t lobby a medical organization with enough pressure.

          • Parodyx

            You can’t. Science is science. How do you lobby something that is authoritative? That’s your problem right there. You don’t accept authority. So running away with your hands covering your ears means that you can pretend evolution doesn’t occur and even consulting a dictionary to you is an “appeal to authority”. It isn’t an appeal if the source is iron-clad factual. This is your way of trying to level the playing field so that everything becomes “faith” when your own faith is ridiculed when it makes bigoted statements. Who’s the troll now? Daresay it’s you.
            Speaking of authority and the dictionary, look up “bestiality” to see how your attempt to twist its meaning failed so horribly.

          • Oboehner

            “Science is science” What is that some kind of magic phrase to somehow prove anything?

            “What’s noteworthy about this is that the removal of homosexuality from
            the list of mental illnesses was not triggered by some scientific
            breakthrough. There was no new fact or set of facts that stimulated
            this major change. Rather, it was the simple reality that gay people
            started to kick up a fuss. They gained a voice and began to make
            themselves heard. And the APA reacted with truly astonishing speed.
            And with good reason. They realized intuitively that a protracted battle
            would have drawn increasing attention to the spurious nature of their
            entire taxonomy. So they quickly “cut loose” the gay community and
            forestalled any radical scrutiny of the DSM system generally” – Behaviorism and Mental Health dot com

          • Parodyx

            No, that quote is not from “Behaviorism and Mental Health Dot Com”. It
            originates from the same place you got your original quote, which is the tommyrot “Homosexuality: The Mental Illness That Went Away” which has been discredited about a million times.

          • Oboehner
          • Parodyx

            Yeah, sure is right. Google is your friend. The author of that article is Phil Hickey. Go ahead and look up his involvement with hate groups.

          • Oboehner

            Now if we disagree with your PC, we’re all “haters”, how asinine. Guess actual truth is evil.

          • Parodyx

            The point is you can’t just find some crank who supports your confirmation bias, make his hate article look like it was endorsed by any responsible person and then fold your self-satisfied arms and go “Q.E.D.”.

          • Oboehner

            The point is you can’t just find some crank who supports your confirmation bias, make his BS PC article look like it was endorsed by any responsible person and then fold your self-satisfied arms and go “Q.E.D.”.

          • Parodyx

            Peer reviewed university level articles fully endosed by the medical community.. that’s what I have. That’s what you WISH you had.

          • Oboehner

            Zzzzzz… Peer-reviewed = NBLA saying that paper stating “pedophilia is normal” is fact.
            You have appeal to authority and not much else.

          • Parodyx

            It’s not an appeal when the source is factual. It is a consultation of facts. You not liking the facts doesn’t make them stop being facts. And your refusal to look at proof doesn’t negate that it is proof.

          • Oboehner

            “appeal to authority” You said that because an authority thinks something, it must therefore be true.

          • Parodyx

            No, because it stops being a matter of opinion and becomes a source of fact. So no appeal is being made. Keep trying.

          • Oboehner

            LOL, kill the messenger.

          • Parodyx

            Just his bigotry, hopefully.

          • Oboehner

            When someone says the emperor has no clothes, that’s just hate – even if he’s buck naked.

          • Parodyx

            When he’s appealing to authority (in no sense is his church or Bible “fact”) then we can safely call it faith-based hate.

          • Ezra

            Not at all. Truth always outs.

          • Oboehner

            Incest? Polygamy? Two consenting adults?
            The bestiality consent thing is best pondered over a cheeseburger.

          • Colin Rafferty

            It is true that the cow was unlikely to have given consent.

          • Sharon_at_home

            First of all Abraham and Sarah late conception was because GOD made it so she was able to have Isaac. When God’s involved in something that involves His mighty powers, it is totally different to today. He wouldn’t make an old woman stop being barren in today’s world. That was to give Abraham the nations that ‘he’ will the paternal origin, too. Something that the Lord has already accomplished. I can see no reason for God to do that anymore. It would have to have greater meaning than that He decided to allow something so unnatural to happen.
            He may have allowed these things to happen then, and to be honest, if God didn’t stop my barrenness I wouldn’t have 3 incredible sons. I was told time and time again that I should not be able to get pregnant, but God allowed it. And then He did it again, and again. Doctors can’t figure out why, but I feel I know. But I was a lot younger than Sarah.
            God would be aware that older women won’t live long enough to take care of a child now. It is written like the ages were different than our years. She believed that she was too old for children too.
            I think the Lord considered people who were not able to conceive were at least allowed a companion through their lives. He didn’t want people to be alone.
            I believe in the bible and God’s Word, and Yes we are supposed to point out a person’s sin, but He would not want the sinners demeaned. He said he did not want unwilling people to come to Him. The LGBT have already been told that the act (not them, just the act) is something God Hates them for. He doesn’t hate them. He hates the sin. He loves the sinner. So they’ve been called all sorts of names because of their sin, but God loves them so he wouldn’t want them to be demeaned. He wants us to love them and bring them to Jesus. He feels that will allow them to repent and have hope of eternal life. That is what our duty is; to bring people to Jesus so they can decide to repent and stop sinning of their own accord.

          • Sharon_at_home

            There is also the women who are barren. They’d be in there too. Many woman find out they are barren without trying to get pregnant, and if they marry with that knowledge…
            Also, in two scriptures they point out that God is love. (1 John 4:8 and 4:16)

          • Florenca Mcdowell

            Sharon,
            perhaps you should read 1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God. 1John 5:12 Whoever has The Son has life; whoever does not have the does not have life. NOW read Romans1-26-27
            Romans clearly tells what God thinks about homosexual lifestyle.
            NOW WHY are YOU talking about woman being barren. You are talking about something that is completely unrelated to God’s views on Homosexuality. So my question to you is are you a false prophet trying to twist woman being barren into God’s acceptance of Homosexuality? I am testing the spirit of your post as being God’s views they are not.

          • Chris

            “1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God.”

            So you’re saying that fundies aren’t from God? Because when I discuss things with fundies I often find people who are judgemental, arrogant, and ego worshipping. Are those things from God?

          • Sharon_at_home

            I would have to go back to check, but I think I was replying to another post and my post was saying barren women would be included in what they posted about.

            It certainly was NOT to turn people away from God in any way.

            I have read the bible and know what it says, but thank you for your help anyway.

            You are welcome to test me since I am basing everything I say on scriptures.

            Maybe you should go over the gospel again and really take notice of what Jesus said. He wants us to love each other and he told us how we should behave – with love and compassion. Helping people to see their sin, not yelling at them for being a sinner. Loving people enough to tell them about Jesus and what He offers, even though they are sinners.

            I welcome your test because I know I am a servant of God and I am not a spirit since I live in any way that in Jesus lived. I shine my light where ever I go.
            People can usually tell if a person is a good person. It is because of their mannerisms and behaviour in situations in life, not because they are Christian. Jesus wants them to believe but some people are still not aware of Jesus’ Salvation. It is our duty to make sure they are aware of their salvation and that they need to repent of their sins to receive it.

            I honestly try to not judge because it’s not my ‘job’ but when I see someone hurting someone else with their words and behaviour I can’t help but judge their actions. And I will stand up for Jesus’ Love every time.

          • Florenca Mcdowell

            It is not what God did. God states in Romans 1:26-27 HIS VIEWS on Homosexual/lesbians. “‘LUSTING” IS NOT APPROVED BY GOD, God does not condone homosexuals or adultery where it may be done with a man and woman. God wants it to by his rules not man’s society rules. It has nothing to do with discrimination it has to do with MORALS do we follow God’s morals or Satan’s/society unmoral positions. It seems you have a problem maybe because you are a homosexual or you just don’t care about God, which you have stated you don’t. fine but remember this someday your life will be over if you believe their is nothing and no punishments for immoral actions then I feel sorry for you. Because Satan has told you there is no God and he is waiting for another occupant to hell. Don’t believe in heaven or hell then you are a confused young man who may be leading that innocent young man in your photo into hell along with you. Shame Shame

          • Colin Rafferty

            Please, you are taking my comment out of context. The only reason I mentioned God creating people that was is because the original commenter said so.

            I have no desire to have a theological discussion. If you want to live your life as though your god exists, that’s fine with me. Just realize that using your beliefs as the basis of a discussion is a non-starter for anyone who does not have the same beliefs.

          • Parodyx

            Homosexuals are identical to heterosexuals in every respect except that their poles of attraction are reversed. That means they are unable to form romantic bonds with people of the opposite sex and can only do so with members of the same sex. That’s homosexuality in a nutshell. Notice there’s no talk of sin, or defiance to God, or anything else, because none of that enters into the picture at all. If they fall in love, it isn’t a charade. Why would it be?

          • Ezra

            Because it is unnatural. Most normal people abhor it. God hates it.

            Is that enough?

          • Parodyx

            Eyeglasses are unnatural. Most normal people DON’T abhor it, only those indoctrinated with religion. We don’t know that God hates it.

          • Ezra

            You’re stretching to make a strawman point.

          • Parodyx

            A strawman would be if I was misrepresenting you, and I’m not. You said unnatural. Well, eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning are all unnatural. And there is almost no one who opposes it who isn’t involved with a religion.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Indoctrination is about let’s say “pounding the truth into the minds” by repeating things over and over again until they know it by memory. I’d like you to be aware that most church children are taught about the bible once a week on Sunday. Most churches aren’t hard task masters about teaching them the bible. For instance in my church, the lesson changes every week so they aren’t pressured about one scripture.
            Eye glasses were not around in the times of the bible so God wouldn’t have made a statement about them.
            “We don’t know that God hates it.” depends on what ‘it’ is. 😀

          • Chris

            “Because it is unnatural.”

            That which is unnatural isn’t found in nature. Homosexuality IS found in nature therefore it isn’t unnatural.

            Have you any other baseless claims to make?

            “Most normal people abhor it.”

            Ah, I see you have. Prove it.

          • Ezra

            Lol, dragging out that old chestnut lie about homosexuality in Nature. Say, I have some swampland in Florida for sale – you should be interested.

          • Chris

            Doing that old fundie thing of dismissing any science you don’t agree with as a lie. Unfortunately it’s a scientific fact which has been recognised by zoologists for decades.

          • Chris

            I could quote sources but you’d dismiss those too wouldn’t ya? After all it’s not the evidence which counts its whether you agree with it that matters.

          • Florenca Mcdowell

            clever boy you are except that God knows your satin’s spawn. IF you had ever read Genesis you would know what God created and it was not ADAM AND STEVE. It is pretty sad to think that two same sex cannot figure out that God created man and woman he created DNA to tell “intelligent” people what sex they are and to whom they should be looking for as their life partner. Keep this in mind man and woman REGARDLESS OF WHAT AGE THEY MARRY

          • Chris

            “God knows your satin’s spawn.”

            SATIN has him in its thrall? What’s next? Leather and cotton? Sorry I couldn’t resist.

            “IF you had ever read Genesis you would know what God created and it was not ADAM AND STEVE.”

            If you had read a science book you’d realise that Adam and Eve are mythological characters.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Ok Chris. You don’t want them to push their beliefs at you, aren’t you mocking our belief with the mythological characters statement?
            It my real honest belief Chris.
            I know you were replying to a pest so maybe that was why you made it sound like how she makes it sound but in reverse?

            I thought you were more of a “live and let live” kinda guy? Was I wrong?

          • Chris

            “Ok Chris. You don’t want them to push their beliefs at you, …”

            Thank you.

            “…aren’t you mocking our belief with the mythological characters statement?”

            I’m sorry if you feel that way. I’m using the term myth as an anthropologist or archaeologist uses it. Not as something made up but an attempt to communicate what the writer felt was a deep truth that couldn’t be passed on in prose. How is that mocking?

            “It my real honest belief Chris.”

            Then my apologies if you felt mocked. That wasn’t my intention. However think on this. If the writer of genesis intended to write a mythic story then by attempting to read it as history it is an unintended distortion of the text. A myth can pack far more meaning into a tale than history can.

            “I know you were replying to a pest so maybe that was why you made it sound like how she makes it sound but in reverse?”

            You have given me pause. I’ll think about what you’ve said. Thank you.

            “I thought you were more of a “live and let live” kinda guy? Was I wrong?”

            You are correct. I’ve let my worst side out I’m afraid. There are gentler ways of communicating. I will endevour to keep to those.

            I believe that we choose, for the most part, how we behave. I don’t have to reflect qualities in myself I find objectionable in others. You are spot on.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            This is clearly the work of “Rouge Angles of Satin”!

          • Chris

            I loved that. You sir have a wicked sense of humour.

          • Chris

            And the fact that scripture has been interpreted by people who hate and have no knowledge of its historical context is irrelevant. Right?

          • Sharon_at_home

            Whether they know the historical context or not it shouldn’t matter IMO.
            It is a sin that was pointed out by God and it’s very obvious as to it’s meaning. I only use the KJV bible but I know there are different bibles that are supposed to be “New bibles” that have not been honest about what various scriptures say.
            Jesus commanded us to love everyone and that included sinners because we are all sinners. And that is what we are to do. To bring people to Jesus you can’t be demeaning or rude. You have to be loving whether you know about their sin or not. He would not agree with people refusing to allow them equal rights because of their sin. It’s not our place to punish the sinner, it’s our duty to tell the people about the Gospel.
            Sigh. Why can’t they hate all they want, but show love and compassion for a sinner. Christians can be haters, but other groups have their haters of Christians too. I don’t hate LGBTs, I hate what their sin means to me as a Christian. I could never hate anyone without personally meeting them to make my own decisions about them even before I was going to my church. As long as I don’t hurt someone because of my beliefs I don’t see why I can’t believe in God’s Word, but we won’t bring people to Jesus by ummm dissing them?
            If I thought that God would not want me to love them, I would ask for forgiveness, and tell Him my understanding of the sin, and He will make sure that I know whether my understanding is right. I find when I need to know something I will talk to someone and they will happen to tell me without me asking, or the Pastor will speak on the same passage.
            I don’t believe he’ll send the kind of message that would mean I have to hate LGBTs because He IS Love.

          • Chris

            I’ll give you a fuller reply later but I’d like to reply to this section if I may. “Whether they know the historical context or not it shouldn’t matter IMO.”

            Books were written for the time and place of the author. In order to understand them we have to understand the historical context. Otherwise, like yabruf, we distort scripture to fit whatever we already believe.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Yeah OK my Pastor, now that I think of it, does usually go in to what it was like for the people during those times. It’s just not as in depth as you make it sound like you feel.
            You do know that Pastor’s are trained to teach God’s Word right? They have a calling to do what God directs them to do and then they get trained for the “job”. So it seems to be more of a religious thing to learn it and teach it properly. For instance, my Pastor told me that it is up to me what I want to do in regards to my Faith and he’s never bluntly told me to do anything. We follow the bible to the extent that if something is not in the bible, we don’t believe it is part of the Truth. So you’ll never see me twist scripture. I like to help others to be understanding of what Christianity really means to people of faith who actually follow Jesus, and don’t go looking for a sin to point out.
            My Christian life is centered around my faith and helping random people, with the things they need help with. I’ve been the same all my life even before I accepted Christ into my life.
            If they distort the scriptures they are not Christians at all. But you have to realize that we also decide it’s our decision to follow Jesus. Also we believe that God’s Word said the bible said not to change any words of it and it’s consequences. It’s in behind Revelations. You don’t have to read it though because you aren’t a believer? are you?

          • Chris

            If you mean am I a Christian? Then no. I’m a Zoroastrian. I have no problem with someone choosing to follow the bible. More power to you.

          • Sharon_at_home

            I know it’s an ancient religion/belief but I know nothing else about it. Can you help me understand why you chose that rather than Christianity? I’m interested in knowing more about your religion.
            I don’t know how to PM and can’t find how to make things bold and underlined etc. Are you able to help me with that?

          • Chris

            Zoroastrianism is an ancient faith. It’s normally called the good religion. It’s guiding principles are – good thoughts, good words, good deeds. How is good defined? Quite simply. All thoughts, words and deeds are, as well as we are able, to display loving kindness and the search for truth.

            I’ll give my story concerning why I became a Zoroastrian rather than stayed a Christian in my next post.

            As to helping you out with your tech skills I’m afraid you’ve asked the wrong person. I’m a noob with the internet. Only just learning what I can do myself.

          • Chris

            “You do know that Pastor’s are trained to teach God’s Word right?”

            I think that depends upon the denomination. Some denominations require years of training. Others require just a glib tongue.

            “So it seems to be more of a religious thing to
            learn it and teach it properly.”

            That certainly seems the general rule but I can think of a few exceptions. For instance I can think of one bible scholar who’s an atheist. She’s even stuck up for the bible in a discussion with Richard Dawkins. She really knows her stuff too. Her name’s ‘Francesca Stavrakopoulou’ if you want to look her up on youtube.

            “For instance, my Pastor told me that it is up to me what I want to do in regards to my Faith and he’s never bluntly told me to do anything.”

            I think I’d like him. Sounds like my kind of pastor.

            “We follow the bible to the extent that if something is not in the bible, we don’t believe it is part of the Truth. So you’ll never see me twist scripture.”

            That is rarer than you know.

            “I like to help others to be understanding of what Christianity really means to people of faith who actually follow Jesus, and don’t go looking for a sin to point out.”

            Ah, someone who walks the walk as well as talks the talk. Then I salute you.

            “If they distort the scriptures they are not Christians at all. But you have to realize that
            we also decide it’s our decision to follow Jesus. Also we believe that God’s Word said the bible said not to change any words of it and it’s consequences. It’s in behind Revelations. You don’t have to read it though because you aren’t a believer? are you?”

            I’ve read the bible through several times, both as a believer and as a Zoroastrian. Now I teach a course on the bible and history to adults.

          • Sharon_at_home

            That is really cool! Now I’m really glad I’ve made friends with you. There are definitely times when I could help understand something and I am happy to look at different opinions about the bible. I choose which one I feel is in line with the bible and then I talk to someone about how our religion looks at it.
            I think that sticking to the scriptures is something the Apostolic religion believes in, not just my church.
            I thank you very much for that salute. It made me feel really good to hear someone say that. Bless you!
            So being a Zoroastrian you don’t believe in God? I’m going to look into this religion. It’s the one you’ve said was from before Jesus came to earth, but the bible is somewhat the same but it includes a God and yours doesn’t? Am I remembering correctly?
            😀

          • Sharon_at_home

            Could you give me a site to look at about Zoroastrian? The google sources didn’t sound like they were really explaining the belief at all. A couple did but I was concerned about their legitimacy. It sounds like you’d know a good site. 😀 Thanks!

          • Chris

            Sorry it’s take so long to reply. I only just found your post.

            There’s a discussion group I’m a member of called Zoroastrian Acceptance 2. You can find it on yahoo groups.

            As to the beliefs I think the best is a book entitled ‘In Search of Zarathustra’. It’s a great read. I hope that helps.

          • Sharon_at_home

            It does very much. Thank you!

          • Chris

            Now as promised my testimony. First let me say that I don’t want to damage anyone’s faith so if you feel your faith may be harmed please don’t read this.

            I was raised in a Christian household. My mother was very devout and one of the kindest souls you would ever meet. When I was 18 I became born again and wanted to learn more about this Lord I was following. But then I ran into some problems

            I was a member of a prayer group. A woman came and asked us to pray for her. She had cancer. A few of us gathered round and started to pray. I kept remembering all the verses in the Gospels which promise healing. But she died, in agony several weeks later. My faith was really shaken and I went looking for answers. First I prayed and read the scriptures but I couldn’t find an answer. I kept coming across promises of healing yet the woman hadn’t been healed.

            I was a young Christian so i next sought the counsel of people who’s Christian walk was much older and had shown themselves knowledgeable in scripture. They treated me like I was trying to destroy their faith.

            Then I sought out book by pastors. They offered different answers but there always seemed to be something missing. One said that if someone wasn’t healed they didn’t have enough faith. But Jesus had talked about having faith the size of a mustard seed and being able to perform miracles. The woman had at least had that much faith because she’d come to the meeting and asked for prayers. And the ones who had prayed over her had had at least that amount of faith. Still other books had said that you have to use certain words at certain times to get healing. That sounded more like casting a spell than praying to me. The last lot suggested that if God didn’t heal someone then they were being allowed to join in the suffering of Jesus. But according to the gospels Jesus had chosen to come to the Earth. This woman hadn’t chosen to suffer.

            It remained a puzzle but I pushed my questions to the back burner and continued on. I thought maybe I’m just not getting an answer in my time and should leave the giving of the answer to God and his time. I was to find out other difficulties were in store. Continued in part 2

          • Chris

            Part 2.

            I continued in my Christian walk for a number of years then I met up with other difficulties. My first was a young woman who I was talking too. She asked me if I believed the bible was the word of God and infallible. I replied that I did. She then showed me a passage where God, through a prophet, orders the soldiers of Israel to go into the cities of the plane and leave alive neither man, nor woman, nor child, nor infant. She then asked ‘suppose you were there back then and rounded a corner to see a young woman clutching a child a begging you not to harm her baby. Would you let them both live and disobey God or kill them both and paise God for the opportunity.’ I was struck speechless. There was no way I could see cutting down a young mother and baby as anything but butchery. Yet, according to the bible God had ordered this.

            One of the final linchpins for my faith was creationism. I had a lot of respect for creationist leaders like Duane Gish and Ken Ham. Then a book came out called ‘Telling Lies for God’. It’s about creationism. In the book the author showed time and again – with quotes – that they had told lie after lie. AIG immediate said they hadn’t said those words and done those things. I knew they had. I still had the books the author had mentioned and they did have those lines in them. My faith was really shaken to its core by this point. I prayed desperately for help. Through lots of coincidences I wound up a Zoroastrian. Hopefully I haven’t bored you silly with this over-long account.

          • Ezra

            I don’t believe a word you stated is truth. Only what YOU desire to be truth. But that is ALWAYS the wY of Satan to deceive. I am quite sure Zoroastrianism will have plenty of company in hell.

          • Chris

            “I don’t believe a word you stated is truth.”

            You can believe what you like. It’s no skin off my nose.

            “Only what you desire to be truth.”

            I think you’re talking about yourself.

            Oh and Zoroastrianism is the religion NOT a person. It was the religion held by Cyrus. You know, the guy who was spoken of as a Messiah. And the faith of the Magi. The ones called the ‘wise men’ in the Christian tradition.

          • Ezra

            Sure it is – you are angling for affirmation – that’s what the nature of evil does – it attempts to draw everything into its whirlpool of death.

            Puhleeze, I know well what that old Babylonianism religion is (which is why I said what I did). As to wise (men) do you know the meaning? Hint. In the same orbit as “kill”

            It helps to know what you are talking about before spouting off. Since you appear to be a Mr. Know-it-all I’ll not illucidate further.

          • Chris

            Once again it’s amazing how well you know someone you’ve never met. Now oh all-knowing one how tall am I? Because if you can’t tell something simple like that then you can’t tell anything about me and are reading into a situation what you hope is true.

          • Ezra

            I only respond to the words you write and speak in generalities. I am clueless about you but if I had to guess I’d say you are likely a nice personality and probably handsome. Have I read something wrong in my guess? 🙃

          • Chris

            Flattery will get you everywhere. 🙂 But, as a rule, best not to guess. If something is obscure try asking questions. I find it helps clarify things for me.

          • Ezra

            I said what I said because I wished to illustrate “guessing” as opposed to responding to the words you wrote. When I “guess” I can say anything because I can speculate (I always try to guess the best view – like seeing the best in a person). But when responding to words or to described situations I do so based on those things, not the person. As in the case of the vicar I respond to the facts and what I know of the policies of the church.

            On an emotional level after looking at their picture my reaction is one of disgust. But that becomes a totally different conversation.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Well the way I was taught God has total control of anything that happens, right? So the way my Pastor taught me to think about the people who are not healed, or are in an accident, or even when babies die, that God has a reason for each and every thing that he that he makes happen. The people that are not healed taught someone about death maybe, or it was just that God wanted her. Maybe the accident happened because they ignored God’s warning and kept driving instead of stopping for gas first. When babies die its to teach people how to grieve, or it something that he wants us to look at in medicine. He does control that too. Only God knows the reason for the things that happen to people, good people or “bad”people.

            If you remember that God is Love you can believe He cares about you. He loves all of us and certainly did not want those people to be lacking in love like they sound like they were.

            I am really sorry they were so awful and didn’t help you to understand instead of saying that. I can’t honestly see how it would cause anyone to lose strong faith just by saying you don’t understand something?

            Colin it sounds like you haven’t heard that God has a reason for everything and those people didn’t either because that’s the only thing that would make them turn you away. Unless, you know, you acted like the devil or something… hee hee
            Maybe they didn’t know how to answer you and reacted out of fear because it was a valid question. I have no clue why anyone in a church would do that, honestly.
            Could they have focused on the sin of questioning God? I know some people believe that. Colin, no matter what the reason was, it just plain should never have happened.
            I hope this helped with a better understanding. God bless until the next part of your post!

          • Chris

            I put the second part as a reply to myself rather than reply normally so that you could read my story normally. Sorry if I made it confusing.

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            It is evil because God said it is evil.

          • Colin Rafferty

            Well, there you go. You refuse to take the blame for your own awful words, and just blame your God instead.

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            As i just replied to you above…….

            I am a proud born again child of God. He is my Father, my Creator and
            my Savior. I love what He loves and I hate what He hates. He hates any
            and all sin. That is why He came to us in the flesh to be the ultimate
            and final sacrifice for the sins of mankind.

            Your issue is not with me. Your issue is with God.

          • Colin Rafferty

            And I already said as much as I would want to such a cowardly and hateful person as yourself.

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            LOL…….I am neither cowardly nor hateful.

          • Colin Rafferty

            Cowardly because you won’t take responsibility for your own words. And if you don’t think calling someone disgusting and evil is not hateful, then you really have no moral center.

            Or can you explain how they are evil without blaming your God? If you blame Him for your own actions, that’s your failure to take responsibility. Maybe it’s not cowardice. But it sure isn’t brave.

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            1 Corinthians 2:13-15New King James Version (NKJV)

            13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy[a] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.

          • Colin Rafferty

            As I said, you’re a coward. You spout hate and then pretend it’s not your fault.

            And I’m sure you feel so pious right now, but the only feeling you really arose in me is contempt.

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            I do not feel pious and I am not ever pious about anything.

          • Chris

            But it was a man who wrote that. So basically you’re saying you agree with him but you won’t take responsibility for your attitude. Being a fundie means never having to take responsibility. 🙂

          • Chris

            You are disgusting and evil. Now that’s not spouting hate, according to you it’s merely a strong disagreement, so it must be ok. Right?

          • Sharon_at_home

            You are not acting in a Christian manner either. see my reply to you above.

          • Sharon_at_home

            They believe it because God said it, so it is not casting blame really because they do believe the same thing.
            On the other hand, the way he worded it was wrong IMO because he shouldn’t be hateful in his post. Jesus wouldn’t have been like that. He never believed that a sinner is a terrible person but rather someone who needed help overcoming the sins. He would also show them love.
            Christians are not supposed demean and vilify sinners at all. They are supposed to love everyone including sinners and it isn’t love to make a person feel bad about themselves.
            Hopefully Doug Bristow will learn how Jesus looked at the sinners around him. It was not with disdain. If Doug is following Christ, he needs to get to know Jesus better by reading the Gospel. Hopefully he’ll also understand that Jesus is God, and he gave us one new commandment: to love each other as we love ourselves. The way he put his comment was not with love.

          • Chris

            No that’s your interpretation of a book. Be a man and take responsibility for your attitudes.

          • Florenca Mcdowell

            Who cares what this old pervert wants. It is what God wants not perverts.

      • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

        If you really do feel that way then telling you that it is evil because God said so will not make a difference to you.

        • Colin Rafferty

          Don’t blame someone else for your views, and especially don’t blame them for your statements. If you cannot explain your own morality, please don’t bother telling everyone else.

          These two are hurting no one. You say they are evil, and them put the blame on someone else.

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            And who did I put the blame on?

          • Colin Rafferty

            “God said so”.

            Do you only think they are evil because God said so? If not, please tell me what tis evil about them. And you are right, if the only reason you think they are evil is because “God said so “, they I am uninterested in hearing, because you are uninterested taking responsibility for your own views.

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            I am a proud born again child of God. He is my Father, my Creator and my Savior. I love what He loves and I hate what He hates. He hates any and all sin. That is why He came to us in the flesh to be the ultimate and final sacrifice for the sins of mankind.

            Your issue is not with me. Your issue is with God.

          • Colin Rafferty

            No, my issue is with you. You made the choice to come on this message board to spout hate. And then refuse to take responsibility for your own actions, like a baby.

          • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

            I am not spouting hate. Saying that something is disgusting and evil is not spouting hate. It is a strong disagreement but a disagreement none the less. If it is hate to you then you need to grow up and put your big boy pants on.

          • Chris

            Ok. You are disgusting and evil. Now that’s not spouting hate, according to you it’s merely a strong disagreement, so it must be ok. Right?

          • Florenca Mcdowell

            Chris explain why is he hateful? Because he follows the Bible and points out what God had to say. Read romans 1:26-27

          • Chris

            To call a couple ‘evil and disgusting beyond words’ is hateful. Tell your friend something like that and see if they are still your friend afterwards.

            As to your quote from Paul Romans is where he explains that homosexuality is caused by idolatry. Now every single animal species on the planet has some homosexuals among them. Do they all practice idolatry? Do the lizards, penguins, chimps, worship at the alter of Baal? Do they prostrate themselves at the shrine of Apollo? Or was Paul simply wrong?

          • Ezra

            Yes, they in effect do all those things. In addition they violate Nature’s laws. St. Paul states that they pay the penalty for so doing with their bodies.

            But I am aware that most people abhor the truth with which God has secured our red motion from sin. Thus truth falls upon deaf ears. A pity really.

          • Chris

            “Yes, they in effect do all those things.”

            So you believe that lizards, penguins and lions have set up little idols somewhere and are worshipping them? And your evidence for this is?

            “In addition they violate Nature’s laws.”

            What natural laws are violated by homosexuality?

            “But I am aware that most people abhor the truth…”

            Really? In my experience people have a high regard for truth. I know many fundies do not have such a regard, but then that isn’t even true for all fundies.

            “…with which God has secured our red motion from sin.”

            What is a ‘red motion’?

            “Thus truth falls upon deaf ears. A pity really.”

            Ah, I see what you mean. Your interpretation of truth = ideology. Sorry but just because someone says something they really truly believe, that doesn’t make it true. Truth can be proven, not just proclaimed.

          • Sharon_at_home

            A lot of people come on here to spout hate. Especially the people who aren’t Christian about Christianity.
            It is a Christian comment board after all, and he does say he’s Christian.
            Colin, when people are Christian they believe what God’s Word says so I guess when people say ‘this’ is how they feel about ‘that’ they are not saying God says so because they want to divert who said it, they are saying they believe in the the Word of God and therefore, they feel the same way as how God said it. It’s his belief too because God said it in His Word.
            I know you disagree with this, but I just wanted to try to explain why he is saying God said so.

          • Sharon_at_home

            No it isn’t, it’s with you.

            Christians love the Word of God and want to follow it, but when Jesus came to earth he did not treat anyone who sinned with rude words. He told us to love everyone, and yes hate the sin the person is doing, but don’t speak rudely about them as if that is all there is about everyone in this case who is LGBT.

            So if you love everyone you would not think of them in a hateful manner but rather with Love and compassion as Jesus did. He taught them about the sins, but he was never hateful towards them.
            Besides, there are a lot of different ways you could have described your objections to their sin without attacking them.

            I’m a born again Christian too, but it’s about Jesus’/God’s love for all that is the main thing, not about punishing the sinful. Most of the ways of punishment for sins in the bible are in today’s laws and are up to the Government – which Jesus said to follow – not up to random groups of people anymore.
            Think about what Jesus wanted us to do, Doug; he wanted us to spread the Gospel to everyone right? How do you expect people to come to Jesus if you are hateful towards them? Do you think they want to be with someone who obviously isn’t about love but about convicting others sins, and punishing them with your words.
            Love sinners Doug, and help them to overcome their sins not make them hate Christians. That’s what Jesus wants.
            Read the New Testament, especially the Gospels and get to know Jesus and how he behaved towards others – you know, except the Pharaohs because he was fulfilling prophecy. Then try to be like Him in all your ways. God Bless!
            James 4:12 “There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?”

          • Chet

            Christ was no compromiser, nor John baptist, nor Peter, nor Paul. Sin is still sin and there’s just no getting around it. The best way one can love someone is via sharing the Truth, unvarnished, as God has recorded in His Word, the Holy Bible. Don’t be deceived into accepting today’s standards among sinners…

          • Sharon_at_home

            So God wants us to tell them that they are awful because they sin, but not tell them about Jesus’ Salvation until after you tell them in plain words, usually in a nasty way… is that what you are saying we should be like?
            I am not compromising with the truth about their sin. I just know people and how they can feel when someone tells them they are awful for any reason, and I know that they won’t want to hear more about why they are hated, so will not listen. People were different when Jesus et al were alive, now they will walk away from hatred.
            I always talk about the scriptures and what Jesus wants for us as He talked about to the people without focusing on JUST their sin. Talking about their sin should actually not be the the only focus since Jesus wants them to come to His Salvation and it’s about believing – if they don’t believe they will not change and repent, right? And they will lose their salvation, isn’t that right?
            I think gays have been told what their sin is, and why for a couple of centuries. I’d rather focus on their renewal of mind than some thing they already know. It isn’t a compromise at all. I still teach them about their sin and help them understand how it affects their Salvation so How is that not about God’s Word?

          • Chet

            Para one: Did the Lord Jesus Christ tell sinners to repent in a nasty way, how about John Baptist, of Peter or Paul? I think not. Nevertheless, they shared the uncompromised truth and the responses were up to the individual hearer. Never read where any of them told anyone they were awful, just that they were sinners in need of the saviour, just as all of us.

            For one to come to the Saviour in faith, believing, one must first understand his need as he is lost and undone without Christ.

            Last para: Today, many, if not most churches have slipped and nowadays compromise God’s Word to the point of people having essentially attended a religious social club. To preach and teach on sin and it’s wages is no longer popular as folks like to have their ears tickled in far too many cases. Besides, if people get offended they will either leave and go elsewhere or not at all or if indeed they stay put, perhaps they’ll cut back on their giving.

            Lastly, in today’s modern godless society, sin is acceptable, generally speaking. Whether it’s adultery, fornication or homosexuality, or whatever, precious little is said to warn the sinner of his ways. In fact, TV, movies and records glorify and uplift divers sin and no one cares any longer about its wages at the end of one’s days. The awful, indescribable place known as Hell is essentially a joke and the word itself is almost always used as an adjective (hot as Hell, fast as Hell etc) rather than the noun it is. This place is the madhouse of humanity, the region of the damned, people there are eternally separated from God’s love, and the torment of flames even as its inhabitants suffer and writhe in pain while hearing glaring blood curdling screams non stop for ever and ever.

            God bless you for your witnessing to the lost regardless of their particular penchant for sin. Remember, society and modernist government can declare whatever they want to be normal, and/or acceptable nowadays. However, the Word of God abides forever and He changes not. And it’s up to us who have been forgiven, redeemed by the precious blood of the Lord Jesus Christ to share the good news gospel however the indwelling Holy Spirit happens to lead. For you it’s one way, for me, quite another. Same goal, when not compromised in essence. Jesus saves from the uttermost to the guttermost, no exceptions, no exclusions. Have a blessed day in Christ, sister…

          • Sharon_at_home

            Thank you for your reply, dear brother.
            My point at the time I think was why would someone who is following Jesus be nasty to try to win followers. Likely because they made it sound like it was all about sin instead of about Jesus. Why would they necessarily care if they sin (in this World?) if they don’t know they have salvation in Jesus? Repenting is the something you have to do if you want Salvation, so if they are interested in Salvation they won’t want to continue to sin and will be more likely to try for their Salvation.
            At least that’s how I see it.
            God never changed. But when He needed to deal with the different situations He became the God of that situation when He dealt with each. That’s why He has so many names.
            Why would God not allow for a different approach at a time that needs something that will attract people to the Gospel and their Salvation and bluntly telling someone they are sinning, would not work in this world today. When someone makes it public that someone sinned, I guess a major sin, it makes the person not only feel the sin was bad, but he was a bad person too. And that’s not necessarily true for for any group of people and you also made everyone else aware that you are a bad person – maybe even to the person that means the most to them.
            If I can think that being a good person is enough to keep me from Hell, by missing Church through my life (except Sunday School) why can’t many other people think that way too? And therefore need to hear the Gospel.
            I knew about Jesus’ birth from Sunday School but nothing about His Salvation, until I visited some friends Church and heard God say that I was home. I have gone ever since. I actually heard Him say my name two times. I was in the park getting a ball for some friends, and there was no one close enough to speak in an even tone with me able to hear them that clearly. I didn’t realize God would do that and did not answer more than Hello? Did someone say my name? It happened again the next Saturday and then I learned in (Adult) Sunday School about the scripture in Samuel where God said Eli and he didn’t realize it was God until his master told him what to say and who it was.
            If I had gotten to that part before it happened, I might have realized at the time what was happening. I didn’t know enough to realize God can do anything including talking out loud to us. It was at the beginning of my journey and I needed to read the bible still so it was unsettling to think I didn’t answer God when He said my name. But now I believe if God wanted me to understand it was Him at the time, He would have.
            God can and does anything He wants to. He’s the Great I Am.
            I am but a humble servant to the Lord and do not need to understand the why the Lord does things. I just need to do anything for the Lord, because I know I have a chance at Salvation and don’t have the understanding that He does.
            I appreciate that you understand my approach and didn’t just throw it out without giving it some thought. I also realize there are many people called by God to deliver the Gospel to the people He wants them to help to save them. Things don’t just happen randomly. They are directed by God.
            My Pastor talks about Jesus’ love more than about negative aspects but he still makes sure we realize how wrong sins in our lives are, and how they will affect us as to whether or not we can have the hope of Salvation. He doesn’t keep the negative aspects hidden, but brings them out more focused on our salvation.
            He also teaches us about various things that the bible talks about that helps to know how to interpret not just one scripture, but how it can be applied to others. He’s been my mentor rather than the officers in the church so we both were given a different view from our discussions. (My husband and I are the only Caucasians in our church, with the rest being Jamaican.) He’s helped me through things by explaining how the bible looks at things. We’ve taught each other our views that we both benefit from I guess.
            I’m going to have to learn to stop writing chapters for replies. I’m afraid it’s how I make what I’m saying as clear as possible. Sorry and I will try to cut back on the Chapters. 😀 God Bless!

          • Chet

            1000 thumbs up…

          • Sharon_at_home

            Thank you Chet.

          • Florenca Mcdowell

            Sharon, You seem to confuse Lust with Love. I am guessing if we followed your views when we see someone hurting a person we are either to tell them its okay because Jesus said we must Love All. And we should NOT tell them they are doing something wrong. As to Judging aren’t YOU doing that and why do you think YOUR VIEWS OF GOD IS THE CORRECT ONE. IT IS NOT. Being a Homo or Lesbian is NOT why God created Adam and Eve. I suggest you read the Bible again and start with Gods words of be fruitful and propagate the world. These two men and two women cannot fill Gods Laws. Gods laws outstrips Mans Law. Shame on you your an Apostate and false prophet

          • Ezra

            You have allowed the world to define the truth as hateful. Christ talked about the punishment of hell a myriad times. He had bad words for the sinners in the Temple and those in power. Are you saying he did not come to save them?

            BTW, that last Scripture you quoted out of context – that was directed to the members of the Body of Christ, not against the judgments against sin. Most sunny day Christians are loathe to tell sinners about the punishments of sin and therefore they rob the sinner of an opportunity to repent and gain eternal life in Christ.

          • Parodyx

            Sharon is a model Christian. You could learn from her. She sticks to her principles as strongly as you do but manages to leave all the moralizing and finger-pointing out of it.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Thank you Paradox.

          • Chris

            You have allowed your ego to define hatred as the truth.

          • Sharon_at_home

            I think they need to be told of their salvation before we can help them understand the Gospel and why it is a sin.
            No I don’t think the truth is hateful, I think the way people do some things in a hateful way, there is a difference.
            I think God had the right to act how he felt would get the people to repent and have Salvation in Christ in those days of the ages. They were rougher people than we are not too. . We are Jesus’ servants, and don’t have that right. We should use common sense and realize that by sounding hateful, it makes them not want to listen to what you say.
            No one would. would you?
            Jesus also talked about His love and why He wanted people to repent and come to Him. Sinners are people too. They have feelings and emotions just like we do. Especially since we are all sinners. I wouldn’t want to be anywhere near someone who says hateful words to me. I’d walk away right at the beginning.
            Jesus talked about all the blessings He wanted to give to people even for simple gestures of love.
            Look, I believe in God’s Word, my faith is very important to me and if I thought I was approaching sinners wrong I think God would have made it clear to me as He has made other things clear to me. Or I find it spelled out in the scriptures.
            I’m not fussy about talking about someone else’s sin either, but I do want to give the people the chance to hear about Jesus and Salvation along with talking to them about the sin. Not everyone does sins that is a huge sin, most do small sins.
            So I do it in a different way. It doesn’t make it wrong, it’s just a different approach. I still tell the sinners about there sin and how Jesus wants them to repent and have eternal life. How do they know about salvation without knowing the gospel and what would be the best way to approach some of those people.
            I guess it’s going by Jesus’ command to “Treat people the way you want to be treated”. I’ve lived by that my whole life. I wouldn’t want to be aggressively told I am a sinner in the first place, so I don’t treat them like that. I would want a caring attitude and someone who could tell me the gospel the way Jesus wanted it to be told, and about my sins and repenting. So that’s what I do for them. I treat them with compassion and empathy.

            My church certainly never even asked about what my sins were when i first started. They only wanted to teach me about Salvation and Jesus which led to knowing the sins and that He Hates All Sin, so I never had to say what so much as that I wanted to be baptized and be washed in the blood of Jesus. My sins are personal between God and I. Once the people have knowledge about Jesus and How he saves sinners, it’s up to them to repent and behave in the way He wanted us to. He told us to allow them to follow their free will if they don’t want to believe. But He never said that everyone should stop trying. If he wants all to have Salvation then he would not want us to give up.

            We also don’t focus on the sins except when we talk about Salvation.
            So, that’s why I do what I do, and say what I say. I’m sorry if you don’t understand it, but God has put me in many places to help people before and I believe He knows how I help people, since He sends them to me and did even before I was involved in a Christian life. They came in, I helped them, and they left. I never understood how I knew what to say to the people that came, but now I know.

            I’m sorry for the ‘book’ but I feel the need to help other Christians see sins the way I do to follow God’s commands. Because I personally don’t want people to hate me or fear me when they realize I’m Christian. The only reason they do is because other Christians have made them feel that way, trying to do it with scorn in the tones and nothing but how awful their sins are.

            I’m standing up for the way I feel Jesus wants us to bring sinners to Him – just as you say you could with the approach you say is best.

          • Florenca Mcdowell

            Amen doug.s We are all sinners but those who cannot accept what they want is sinful seem to want to PUSH THEIR EVIL DEEDS ON US.

          • Colin Rafferty

            How is that couple PUSHING THEIR EVIL DEEDS ON YOU?

          • Florenca Mcdowell

            By saying they want the church to CHANGE AND THEY WANT THE CHILDREN TAUGHT WHAT THEY DO AS NORMAL. if they want to live like this fine just DO NOT TELL others they MUST ACCEPT THEM AS NORMAL.

          • Colin Rafferty

            They are not forcing anyone to do anything. They are giving free advice to their Church. I didn’t see anywhere in the article where they are trying to teach other people’s children anything.

            And no one is asking you to accept them. They are generally just asking to be left alone.

          • Ezra

            Actually Colin they are “forcing” us to listen an affirm their evil deeds OR ELSE they will mock, revile or (if they could) kill us because we tell them the truth and they hate the truth.

            Do you have a dog in the race?

          • Colin Rafferty

            Kill you, really?

            Maybe you believe that you are required to affirm or deny a couple’s marriage. You always have the third choice, which is to ignore it, because it doesn’t actually involve you.

            But if your beef is that you are being mocked and reviled, maybe you ought to think about why.

          • Ezra

            Did you fail to note the parentheses, lol. It is the institution that should be affirmed (for myriad reasons) and the institution has since its dawn been the joining in body, mind, spirit and in law between a man and a woman (a good case may be made that another institution is “friendship” between two men or two women even, but that institution is not marriage).

            Oh my, there is so much you fail to understand- Christians consider it a blessing to be mocked, reviled, hated, abused and even killed. Our Lord was treated thusly and we ought not to think ourselves better than he. But the goal is to save the unwitting from eternal death – that is the love that the world eschews in favor of its own lusts.

          • Colin Rafferty

            Really, you don’t have to say anything when two consenting adults do something that you would choose not to do. No one is looking for your affirmation, I promise you that. All anyone is really looking for is for people to not butt their noses in other people’s private lives.

            And please spare me the BS about the historical sanctity of marriage. Historically, it’s about paying someone to take your daughter off your hands, or forging bonds between two powerful families.

            But really, right now, there are two very different concepts of marriage: the religious one, which gets to be defined by whatever religion you follow; and the legal one, which defines who gets to have legal benefits of being married. And that second one demands it give equal protection to all people.

          • Ezra

            You are so naive Colin. You are right I can forego the opportunity to state the life-saving truth, but then I would be called to account by a higher authority than Man on Judgment Day (i.e. Why did you not throw the life preserver to those drowning men, Ezra?)

            And I promise YOU that indeed they are looking for affirmation. Do you think that if they were not looking for it and for people to “butt their noses into their private lives”, as you do quaintly put it, that they would have put it onto the social net. Puhleeze, do not think we rolled off the potato wagon this morning. It appears from context that they are reveling in their new-found notoriety.

            The two reasons you gave (though perhaps jaded) are certainly valid in some societies – but there are far more. And it is a falsehood to claim that marriage is just religious – most pre-religious social orders observed it. And legal benefits came about for a very good reason that I’ll bet you were not taught in school.

          • Colin Rafferty

            I’m talking about marriage today, not marriage in some society from thousands of years ago.

            So do you think that it’s appropriate for the government to discriminate against people because of their gender? For example, we should only allow Social Security benefits to be shared by mixed-gender couples, and not same-gender couples. If so, why would that be?

          • Ezra

            They rape morality.

          • Parodyx

            Certain brands of morality are very deserving of that, and worse.

          • Ezra

            Yes, the evil morality these two have engaged in (and affirmed by those who ought to know better)

          • Parodyx

            If they’re consenting adults, it’s really no one’s business but theirs.

          • Florenca Mcdowell

            Be aware as a Homo or atheist we are not interested in your opinions. It is clear you do not Honor God most probably because you are satans spawn .
            Good luck when you stand before the God you do not believe in as you time will come for judgment just as my time will.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Do you ever get someone to convert with that attitude? What an awful way to speak to someone. SMH

        • Chris

          Telling you that the idea that the bible is the word of God is your interpretation is just a waste of time.

          • Sharon_at_home

            If that subject is ‘his’ interpretation’ then how is it different to state your interpretation? At least that what it sounded like you said.
            Or were you referring to how some people interpret the part about homosexuals differently?

          • Chris

            You got it in one. His interpretations AND mine are just that – interpretations. To give them a higher degree of probability they have to be backed by evidence from outside the bible.

          • Sharon_at_home

            There has been many scholars who have analyzed what the bible said and the way it said it. They are very respected for their work.
            The only way you would see a different interpretation is because of the version of the bible you use. The KJV states it very obviously so there could be no question.
            I explained how I feel in other posts. Simply speaking I believe that Jesus did not want us to treat people badly regardless of their sin.
            I can’t be dishonest and say it isn’t called a sin by God, but Jesus also said to treat people with love. And that’s what I do. Your sins are your place to decide if you want to believe the Gospel and Jesus’ words. Your sins are also, for Christians, up to the Lord to decide what to do with you

            Not believing in Jesus in the first place won’t help you understand. The problem is the way people are dealing with it. Not the version or interpretation. It’s about the way they behave just because you are a sinner to them. That is the wrong way to get someone to listen to the Gospel. I’m sorry they have made all of you feel badly.

          • Florenca Mcdowell

            Romans 1 26- 27. God is the same today as yesterday he DOES NOT CHANGE. It matters NOT what bible you like God’s word is God’s word. This is for you and other feel good Christians. Rev22:18I warn everyone who hears the words of prophecy of this book: IF ANYONE “ADDS” to them, God will add to him/her the plagues described in this book, and if ANYONE TAKES AWAY the words of the book of this prophecy, God will TAKE AWY his/her SHARE IN THE TREE OF LIFEAND IN THE HOLY CITY WHICH are described in this book. YOU are standing on the corner of APOSTACY
            AND HELL for your superior feel good position. Repent, before your time comes to stand before Jesus

          • Chris

            “God is the same today as yesterday he DOES NOT CHANGE”

            So when God allowed slavery then He still allows slavery. Thus the US should re-establish slavery because God says it’s ok.

          • Sharon_at_home

            I am sorry but I do not change the words of the bible. I explain them, but I never change them.
            No God does not change. God is Love and people who love are of God. He stated that Himself. So doesn’t that mean that He just wants love for all of us?
            I look at how to bring people to Jesus in a different way, but it is still from the scriptures. By explaining them to unbelievers, it gives them the reason for Christians behaviour (whether good or bad) by showing them the Word to help them understand.
            Whether you agree with the way I am doing my duty to God, or not. It’s up to God to make it known to me that I am doing what I do incorrectly because I am a Saint and He doesn’t want me to lose my Salvation either.
            I just think people would be better if they approach people with love instead of scorn. I want them to love not to hate. Tell me – How is that going against God’s Word?

      • Sharon_at_home

        Hi Colin, the only way they would be “hurting others” is by insisting that other people believe his religion condones Homosexuality. That hurts the others in the religion because they don’t agree with them.
        To me, sex is a private thing and by being in the news they are making it a public thing. I believe they should do whatever they want but that others don’t need to know about it.

        • Colin Rafferty

          I can agree with that. Because all most same-sex couples want is to just to be able to do what mixed-sex couples want. The ability to get married, adopt children, stay in hotels, have stores serve them, and not have laws that discriminate against them for having the same gender.

          • Sharon_at_home

            But just by saying that they are queer – I’m looking at the “media” queers not the quieter ones – it makes what they do in the bedroom… public… I guess. I’m actually trying to find a different but true way of looking at this issue without it being about how they have sex. Unfortunately it hasn’t been easy even questioning an LGBT person, I haven’t gotten any answers.
            I think that by changing the focus away from their bedroom, people will be more accepting. A lot of people are uncomfortable hearing about other people’s sex habits. So if they found something else to have the public focus on, I guess it would be eventually it will help with acceptance. I say eventually because it’s been such a big news thing lately because they are standing up for their rights. Maybe once they have those rights they could try refocusing but for now they could only really point out the other way of looking/ thinking about LGBT.
            How exactly do people “know” people are gay unless they tell them. There has always been effeminate men that weren’t necessarily gay, So do they make it known in some way? The LGBT people I know are friends with someone I know and when it’s just us it’s reasonable to acknowledge it, but other than an introduction that includes this trait, how do they let other people – like public service businesses – know? I’d really like to know.

          • Colin Rafferty

            Honestly, it’s not the LGBTQ people who talk about their bedroom behavior, but everyone else. Look around at the comments on this board, and many complaints that you see about same-gender marriage are talking about sex. People who are for equal rights talk about love. People who are against it talk about sex. We have always talked about love.

            And as for recognizing people, you will know that two people are a same gender couple because they are two men who are looking to buy a wedding cake. Or get a marriage license. Or adopt a child. Or check into a hotel. Or do any of a million things that a mixed-gender couple can do as a couple.

          • Sharon_at_home

            So we really can only determine if someone is gay if they are with their partner?
            So why don’t the “media LGBT” focus on that love more than which type of person they are attracted to.
            I don’t say they shouldn’t be honest about their attraction to each other, but I think if the focus was about how they show their love, not just toward each other but to everyone (like Christians should).
            People are always saying not to treat people who are different badly. They are saying it (usually) about the refugees but LGBT are different too, and should be accepted as people, regardless of whether they think it’s a sin or not.
            The “Media Christians” ruin the reputation of moderate Christians so that people ‘hate’ Christians. Maybe if these groups wouldn’t always bring in the media there wouldn’t be so much obvious hatred in the world.
            I wish I could make a difference, but I can only try hee hee hee one post at a time. Blessings!

      • Florenca Mcdowell

        BY trying to force a Church to accept what the Bible says is a sin. If you are a homosexual live in your own sin but do NOT try to force others to dos so ESPECIALLY CHILDREN. He is not a Christistain he is however one of Satn’s own,

        • Colin Rafferty

          He’s not trying to force the Church to do anything, he is saying what he thinks the Church ought to be doing. Those are very different things.

          And what is he doing to children? Nothing.

          • Chet

            Homosexual marriage confounds the little ones for sure as even the young know it takes mommy and daddy to make a family and parents. There’s no two mommies and two daddies… And the Holy Bible clearly defines male and female in the bounds of matrimony, no exceptions…

          • Colin Rafferty

            Actually, most kids I know have no problem understanding how different families have different make-ups.

          • Chet

            Really, how do you explain these “families” being able to have kids. And I’m not speaking of those without a mom or dad for myriad reasons, but, rather, those with two men and/or two women thus constituting a family in modern man’s view, only.

          • Colin Rafferty

            For any couple, adoption is an excellent choice. For any lesbian couple artificial insemination works well. There are also people who don’t realize until later in life that they are gay, and already have children from their first marriage, or from all sorts of reasons.

            I generally think that when a child gets to an age where it’s appropriate to discuss the mechanics of how to get pregnant, then they’ve probably already been exposed to lots of different kinds of family units.

            But really, if a child has no problem dealing with a single mother or single father, why is two mothers or two fathers so hard? It’s a pretty simple concept.

      • Chet

        It’s not others anyone need be concerned with as all others are sinners as well. It’s the Lord God Almighty we all need to be concerned with as it is He, with whom we all have to do, sooner or later… And His Word clearly defines right from wrong even as the Lord Jesus Christ defined marriage very clearly and what constitutes sin, period, be it adultery, fornication and/or homosexuality…

        • Colin Rafferty

          I agree that people should not be casting stones. That’s why I was asking Doug Bristow why he is calling them evil.

          • Chet

            Regardless of the sinner doing so, adultery, homosexuality and fornication are sexual sin, period, just as the Ten Commandments warn against others.

          • Colin Rafferty

            According to my religion, they are not. That’s why we have religious freedom in most western nations — so we can each practice our religions as we see fit.

            And saying that your holy book says something is a sin is really meaningless to someone who doesn’t think your holy book is the word of a supreme being. I was hoping for an actual reason for it being sin, not just saying “someone else said so”.

          • Chet

            My echo regarding your particular meaningless words, period… “Religion” saves no souls, transforms no lives, delivers no one from bondage, reunites no broken homes, blesses no one, restores no one’s ill health and most assuredly, grants no one eternal life at the end of one’s few earthly days.

          • Colin Rafferty

            On that, we agree 100%.

          • Colin Rafferty

            Don’t forget masturbation!

          • Chet

            Are you trying to be funny, dude? Next time you read God’s Word see if you can find areas of the Lord’s compromise regarding sin, any sin…

          • Colin Rafferty

            Yes, I am! I am honestly amused and puzzled as to why you are jumping into this discussion using your bible as justification.

            This entire discussion from six days ago is trying to be neutral about religion, and discuss morality in objective means. We had already far dispensed with the idea that “god says so” is any way meaningful when trying to have a discussion between two people of different religions.

            Just as you would never be swayed by someone quoting the Koran to you, why would you think a non-Christian would be swayed by quoting Jesus?

          • Chet

            A simple and respectable answer to your last sentence/question. All of us once lost sinners at one time couldn’t have cared less about eternity and the things of God, as we were content in our sin, whatever form of such we gave ourselves over to. None of us sought after the Lord and His righteousness.

            Then, one day, by God’s great mercy and grace, His blessed Holy Spirit spoke to our individual hearts via a Christian friend, a preacher or perhaps something as simple as a gospel tract. The Spirit of God then broke our hearts, convicted us of sin and judgment to come even as He gave us faith to believe His Word. Thus, the Holy Spirit brought each of us to the foot of the old rugged cross of Calvary where the Son of the true and living God (of the Holy Bible) willingly gave His life as a ransom for all of us lost sinners. Christ took all my sins, and God knows they were virtually innumerable, upon His own sinless body out of love and mercy and grace. I then understood for the first time just where I stood, or didn’t, and took God at His Word and called upon the Lord Jesus Christ to forgive me and save my eternal soul in faith believing in His death, burial and resurrection on my behalf and in taking Him at His Word. I then became a Christian, became indwelt by His own Holy Spirit, and my eyes were immediately opened to His truth and my life was transformed tremendously.

            And Although I am still a sinner, I no longer seek to sin and upon doing so, I confess such to the Lord and turn away from it. No man ever attains sinless perfection in this life and each Christian trusts entirely in the righteousness of Christ and His Cross, alone, to take us to Heaven someday… Thanks for the exchange of views and God bless as you continue to seek the truth… No sane man would ever care to consider the alternative abode of the eternally damned, Hell, for his own certain place one day.

          • Colin Rafferty

            Any joking aside, I am honestly happy that you have found a meaning in your life, and that this has helped you.

            And the joke was in reference to Scalia’s famous dissent in Lawrence v Texas.

  • Amos Moses

    gotta wonder if this is a fake news bait story ………. but …… EWWWW ……..

  • Amos Moses

    EWWWW ……….

  • kirtanloorii

    Yes!

  • Rick

    The Church of England is obviously in trouble.

  • Sisyphus

    As the faith militant peer from their pious heights in self righteous judgement; Shame! Shame! Shame! Shame!

    • J J

      zzzzzz

      • Sisyphus

        What an articulate and insightful response! Is that the extent of your vocabulary, or maybe keyboard broken.

  • Jimmie Mack

    Apostasy has grown in these last days. What we have here is a false man of God in a faux marriage to a 24 year old. Age aside homosexuality is perverse and sinful. I will not change my mind on that.

    • Colin Rafferty

      What is wrong with apostasy? Are people not allowed to change their minds?

      • Sharon_at_home

        I think what’s wrong in this case is that the older man in the case was a leader in a church and is trying to get the (whole) church to accept something that isn’t accepted within Christianity. It isn’t apostasy, because he did not change his religion, but rather wanted to change how the religion feels about what he is doing.
        Besides the age difference, knowing how the church looks at homosexuality, the older man wants to change the religion even though the Word of God specifically says that it’s wrong. If you are going to follow the Word of God, you shouldn’t ask for things to be changed; for me that is what he is doing.
        I think the best thing for this man to do is to be an apostate and leave his religion as he is not agreeing with the religion. He’s changed his mind.

        • Colin Rafferty

          That’s why I asked specifically about apostasy. I completely understand why a particular church would not want to change its beliefs, and would rather not have a member who disagreed with them.

          And by the way, not all Christian Churches feel the same way as yours does about same-gender love. There are lots of fundamental differences between different Christian Churches, and this is just one of them.

          • Sharon_at_home

            I know, but they don’t follow the bible Colin. If they were Christians in the way God wanted them to be, they would not conform to societies ways. Loving God’s word should be a love of all His Word, not picking and choosing and trying to change the meaning of what His Word says. Christian churches do not regard those churches as truly Christian TBH. because of their “rebellion” against God’s Word.
            To me, love is love is love… I feel the LGBT is something God has to deal with not the Christians of the world. He is the only one that can look into a persons heart and know what is true. So it’s up to Him to convict and punish in the Christian way of living. All we should be doing is loving too.
            I won’t bore you with another speech about how I think Christians should be behaving towards the LGBT. 😀

        • Ezra

          Well said. What is sad is that he must know what God’s Word says on the subject, yet he wants the Church and the rest of us to affirm his sin as if it did not matter. He is but one of myriad.

      • Ezra

        That is a great question Colin. It begs the next quest: why would a person who knows the truth trade it for a lie?

        • Colin Rafferty

          Because he realized it’s not the truth. For any religion, the vast majority of people in this world disbelieve it.

          • Ezra

            I seriously doubt that last statement. I think the vast majority roll their eyes and giggle when homosexuals’ backs are turned.

          • Colin Rafferty

            Sorry, I assumed you were talking about apostasy and truth. Instead, you’re talking about something else.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            The “vast majority” of who, exactly?

          • Ezra

            Of people, so we each have our own opinion. And I think it is FAR from a majority who support SSM. During the past 2 years I have been in perhaps as many as 30 states and asked my acquaintances about that. I found little support. But the stunner was that 6 weeks ago I was in San Francisco and asked some people at the company I was visiting about the issue. I was expecting 100% support. Maybe 30%, if that, supported it out in the Silicon Valley! I think supporters grossly overinflate the figures.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Your personal acquaintances, and some people at a company in San Fransisco, aren’t an accurate representation of the entire American public, though. I’m talking about actual polls that been done over the past few years that consistently show support for SSM at over 50%. I could use the same reasoning that you just did and say that the numbers those polls say are too LOW, because more than around 50-60% of the people (in fact, probably the vast majority!) I know are in favor of it….but that says nothing but what kind of people I know.

          • Ezra

            Many polls are slanted to the answers the pollster desires – the ones you cite seem such. My personal poll runs to a few hundred over the past couple of years. I trust my observations.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            A few hundred people over a few years isn’t an accurate indication of the attitudes of all the public.

            As for polls being slanted….right now I’m looking at a Gallup poll from May 2016 that asked people, in these exact words, “Do you think marriages between same-sex couples should or should not be recognized by the law as valid, with the same rights as traditional marriages?” In what way is that “slanted”? It came out as 61% for “should”, by the way.

          • Ezra

            The Gallup polls are very often suspect as to whom asked and how. I trust really, face-to-face opinion.

            On another tack, why not ask if “marriage” between a man and a woman has been wrong since the beginning of civilization just until the past 10 years? I would be interested in hearing a response to the idea that human history was been wrong for 6000 years.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “The Gallup polls are very often suspect as to whom asked and how. I trust really, face-to-face opinion.”

            But how is that itself not suspect? You have biases of your own, and so do I for that matter.

            “On another tack, why not ask if “marriage” between a man and a woman has
            been wrong since the beginning of civilization just until the past 10
            years? I would be interested in hearing a response to the idea that
            human history was been wrong for 6000 years.”

            First of all, who on Earth is saying marriage between a man and a woman is wrong? I think it’s wrong to limit it to a man and a woman, but that’s not the same thing at all. And I don’t know where you’re getting this thing about “until the past 10 years” either. If you’re just talking about modern times, the Netherlands made SSM legal in 2001, so that would be 16 years….and there’s various examples of same-sex unions in different societies in older times as well.

            Also, why is “it’s been that way forever” a good argument for anything? Slavery has been around throughout much of human history, does that mean we should keep it?

          • Ezra

            Of course we all have biased outlooks which is the very reason I do not trust Gallup and favor mine.

            As to my “wrong” statement about marriage I could have worded it better perhaps by adding “just” right after “marriage” – probably a bit clearer to illustrate the poInt that throughout history the idea of SSM would have been laughed out of the country (and for good reason) as being preposterous. In many ways the ancients were wiser than we seem to be.

            I see no similarity between the institution of slavery and servitude often marked by violence to SSM. That path is just st a grasping of straws. However, marriage does (or should) have some similarities in that two people – male and female – bind, or “enslave” themselves to each other for the rest of their mortal lives for the sake of building structurally sound families (at least that is the ideal to most civilizations recognize) – and yes, brokenness of the human condition leads to fractured families at times. OTOH, SSM is a sterile affair mistaking lust and idol worship for true love. Two men have never produced a baby. End of argument, so in the end we find deluded individuals attempting to convince the normal people that their marriage is equal to that between a man and woman. Rational, logical thinkers see trough that specious argument (notwitstanding that the ONLY equality in this human existence is that “X = X” such that nothing else is equal!)

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “Of course we all have biased outlooks which is the very reason I do not trust Gallup and favor mine.”

            Fine, as long as you acknowledge that your outlook is a biased one, and therefore don’t take it as representative of the opinion of the general public.

            “As to my “wrong” statement about marriage I could have worded it better perhaps by adding “just” right after “marriage” – probably a bit clearer to illustrate the poInt that throughout history the idea of SSM would have been laughed out of the country (and for good reason) as being preposterous.”

            Yeah, that’s what I thought you were getting at in the first place. I was comparing marriage to slavery not to say that they themselves are alike necessarily, I was just trying to say that I don’t think that just because something has “always” been a certain way is automatically a valid reason to keep it that way.

            “In many ways the ancients were wiser than we seem to be.”

            Do you mean, for example, the ancient Greeks or Romans perhaps?

            “OTOH, SSM is a sterile affair mistaking lust and idol worship for true
            love. Two men have never produced a baby. End of argument,

            How do you claim to know that? Do you have some ability to look into the minds of homosexuals and know their feelings? And what does producing a baby have to do with the feelings people have for one another? (After all, people not in love have had children, and people in love have not…) If a heterosexual couple gets married and doesn’t have any children for whatever reason, (can’t or just don’t want to) does that mean they don’t love each other or does it make their marriage any less valid? Is their marriage then nothing but “lust and idol worship”, as you seem to be implying here? Don’t get me wrong here, I’m not saying having children isn’t an admirable thing, I just have never considered that the ONLY valid reason for people to marry.

          • Ezra

            I do not think that bias is so important as being right in spite of your bias. Which I think I am (because I listen to people instead of predispose their response).

            As for love, it is a late development in marriage which historically has been for the purpose of cementing families by the production of children. Love between members of the same sex was viewed as strong friendship but not as “marriage” as some would like to argue.

            It is not reasonable to bolster an argument by citing its exceptions I think.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Well, yeah, you’re right, marriage hasn’t always been about love, I suppose….but, so what? It goes back to the same kind of thing I said before – just because something’s been one way is no reason, by itself, to keep it that way. I mean, do you think that’s a preferable state of things, with loveless couples getting married just for the sake of having children?

          • Ezra

            Well, that’s exactly what happened historically – it was called arranged marriages most often where the couple never met until the wedding night.

            If something has been a certain way for 6000 years it is most likely VERY WISE to keep it intact unless there is an overwhelmingly bias towards accepting it as the BEST way to solve the problem it arose in response to the problem. Is SSM such an overwhelming problem that marriage is the correct answer? Reasonable people must think not.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “Well, that’s exactly what happened historically – it was called arranged
            marriages most often where the couple never met until the wedding
            night.”

            Yes, I understand that. I’ll ask you again, since you never answered my questions the first time: Is that a good thing? Do you think we should still do that today? If a couple gets married because they are in love but they don’t want or can’t have children, is their marriage somehow less valid in your eyes?

            “Is SSM such an overwhelming problem that marriage is the correct answer?”

            Do you mean is same-sex marriage not being allowed an “overwhelming problem”? Well, to the people who wanted to get married but couldn’t, I guess they would consider that a pretty big problem themselves. Enough of a problem to make several court cases about it, actually. Also, why does something have to be an “overwhelming problem” to be addressed, anyway? Are you suggesting that because homosexuals are a small minority, their rights aren’t a “problem”? Last time I checked, the Constitution protects the rights of all citizens.

          • Ezra

            In the appropriate social order it probably is a good thing to have arranged marriages. I do not think arranged marriages are something that would be acceptable in our society. So a judgment of “good” or “bad” isn’t a reasonable question in my view. So my opinion on the question seems irrelevant.

            I was never under the impression that people could not marry (except for mental derangement, etc) – a man could always marry a woman and vice versa excepting the miscegenation laws under the laws of slavery. Partnering was the solution to circumvent the “marriage” definition. I do not believe homosexuals were denied any “rights” – there was always a ‘workaround’.

            In short, I believe homosexuals have been accorded rights above and beyond what the Constitution had in mind – they have become a ‘special’ minority.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “I do not believe homosexuals were denied any “rights” – there was always a ‘workaround'”

            How about the right to marry someone they would actually, you know….WANT to marry?

            “In short, I believe homosexuals have been accorded rights above and
            beyond what the Constitution had in mind – they have become a ‘special’
            minority.”

            That’s just wrong. How have homosexuals been given some sort of privileges that you or I don’t? If you’re trying to tell me homosexuals could always marry someone of the opposite sex, that’s still true, but now heterosexuals can marry someone of the same sex, as well. So, equal rights.

          • Ezra

            You recite all the standard propaganda lines that have become the go-to arsenal of those who hold that view.

            No one can marry a person of his own sex – except that the meaning of the word be bastardized. So no, heterosexuals CANNOT marry someone of the same sex because that would not be a marriage (nor would they be heterosexual?). What is next on this slippery slope? Marriage to your own self – sologamy? Marriage to ones pet dog or cat or horse – petogamy? Or to an inanimate object? The list becomes as myriad as it is laughable. We have lost our collective minds?

            When I run across same sex couples who claim to be married I laugh at them behind their backs (if I can make it that far) because I wonder how they can fool themselves into living that lie. (Like saying he’s my husband or he’s my wife- I guffaw at the absurdity of it all. Worse, I pity the fools that are so mentally deranged they could believe the arrangement is anywhere near ‘equal’ to the real thing.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “You recite all the standard propaganda lines that have become the go-to arsenal of those who hold that view.”

            ….and you follow that up with the standard seen-it-a-million-times-before “slippery slope” argument. I guess at least you saved me the trouble of not having to call you out for that, because you said it yourself! (Hint: slippery slope arguments are usually wrong because the person making them doesn’t have evidence for the claim that one thing will lead to this, that or the other.)

            As for same-sex marriages not being marriages, according to the US government, they are, just as much as any other marriage. You may not consider it marriage, your church may not, but you or they don’t get to determine that for everybody else.

          • Ezra

            Hmm, you seem to have slipped on the slippery slope argument of which I accused your side. And I observe an agreement about your slippery slope, it is wrong as you point out. Nevertheless, you argued from a weak premise and I invoked 6000 years (at least) of historical perspective.

            Since when is the US government the final arbiter of the way things are? Just like hitler thought he had solved the Jewish “problem” the people saw otherwise and a new world order sprang up. So too with homosexual so-called marriage (and the abomination of abortion). Both will end as the novelties they are when people get tired of the decay in the social order. It happened to Ancient Rome and most assuredly it will happen here as well.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            I don’t know what you’re talking about now. What slippery slope argument have I (or “my side”) been using?

          • Ezra

            Broadly speaking: that homosexual “marriage” is a valid estate.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            That isn’t a “slippery slope argument” in any way, though. That’s when you say “A will lead to B, C, D, and E” or something like that. It’s the people against it that usually make that argument, that SSM will lead to people marrying relatives, multiple wives, animals, yadda yadda yadda.

          • Ezra

            And with plenty of evidence historically. We are already seeing it in a few places – and likely that will escalate.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            What evidence? What are we seeing in a few places?

            Oh, and as for what you asked earlier, “Since when is the US government the final arbiter of the way things are?”

            Well, in a secular country, it isn’t any particular religion.

          • Ezra

            Well, the Vicar and model is one such. A couple of days ago I heard on NPR about sologamy. Two examples in just recent days.

            America is not a secular country in practice; it wasn’t even founded that way contrary to what is asserted even if we do recognize separation of church and state. In our country the religion of Christianity is the dominant one, with Judaism close.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “Well, the Vicar and model is one such.”

            What is that evidence of? That people with big age differences sometimes get married? I have news for you, that happens with heterosexual couples some times too. It’s not exactly a new concept.

            Separation of church of state is exactly what makes this country a secular state. Christianity is the dominant religion, sure, but that doesn’t change that. I don’t know, though, maybe you have somewhat of a point though….often Christianity is given preferential treatment, in practice. That’s what groups like the FFRF and the Satanic Temple are always fighting against. (and by the 1st Amendment, and Article VI, it’s unconstitutional)

            And “Judaism close”? Hardly. 70% of Americans are Christians, and less than 2% are Jewish. Interesting, though….if you count atheists, agnostics, and “no religion” together, they’d be by far the 2nd biggest group, with over 20% of Americans.

          • Ezra

            Age difference? Where did you pull that from? In fact to point out the age difference seems discriminatory and a form of ageism. I was talking about the fact they are of the same sex – they violate biology, Nature’s law.

            But you guys are always grasping at straws to deny that America is a “Christian Nation”, founded upon Judeo-Christian principles and functioning secularly in its government. You just need to get over it, accept it and work within it. You remind me of the alt-left who are apoplectic that Trump won. Move on.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            But I was saying it’s usually SSM that is used as start of the “slippery slope”. People say SSM bring legal will lead to this, that, and the other. If you’re telling me SSM will lead to SSM, uh….okay then! I guess I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make there. And if a marriage can “violate biology”, then aren’t you saying the only reason for marriage is procreation?

            The problem with saying “Christian Nation” is that there’s many things that can mean. You said yourself, the government is secular. A truly secular government favors no one religion over any other, even if it’s the religion of the majority.

          • Ezra

            We are a Christian nation.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Define that, please.

          • Ezra

            In short, founded upon Jude’s-Christian values as to government, society and customs. (Easily evidenced in the founding documents)

          • Sharon_at_home

            Now Ezra, you don’t have to look for/find evil in every situation. (re: gallup polls)
            I wouldn’t mind seeing a poll like that myself. wow. that’s a mind blowing idea.
            Ezra do you work in a job, or do you travel for a religious reason? I’d like to know what kind of people you are talking about in that post back there. It would help to know if it affected their opinion about it.
            And you know, curious. 😀

          • Ezra

            You are correct that one doesn’t have to look for evil in every situation. By the reverse logic one must recognize it when it exhibits itself. Such is the present instance.

            I do travel a lot for work and subsequently meet and talk with lots of people. While I am acquainted with people across a broad spectrum of social and economic backgrounds, most are just normal, work-a-day Americans (whom I greatly admire). What has surprised me is an apparent swing back to traditional values by quite a few millennials. They are not as homogeneous in their thinking as we have been led to believe in the media.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Ok I can agree with knowing when Evil is present in any situation to know how to avoid it. If possible address it. Yup, I can agree with that!
            It really is great to know that the young adults of today are looking at traditional values and understanding their worth. It’s an interesting turn in our society actually. Maybe years from now it will be well thought of by more. We can only pray.
            Thanks for explaining that view for us. I appreciate it.
            God bless!

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Just Google “public opinion on same-sex marriage in the United States”. Basically, almost every poll since 2010 has had more people in favor of SSM than against it.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Thanks King, I will. I don’t think I’m surprised, but considering the loud complaints about the sin, I guess I thought it would be less.
            I’m glad its changing the way they are treated equal.
            I believe you about it so I’m not in a hurry to check what you said. But I probably will at some point.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Well, I guess it’s usually the people complaining or protesting against something that, even if they are the minority, make the most noise.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Aren’t the Christians vs. the ‘big’ sinners (gays) more a battle of wills now? Are the Christians still being loud about the gays? That’s too bad. I’m against that very much.

          • D.M.S.

            Do read the same KNJV that I do? In the end times more and more people choose to disregard God/Jesus as being true.

          • Ezra

            I read mostly Hebrew and Greek versions, however the KJV and NKJV are good translations.

            But of course people are falling away from God’s truth as revealed in Yeshua Hamashiach (Jesus Christ). We should strive to keep our spiritual eyes and ears open.

          • D.M.S.

            I agree we Christians that are dedicated to our Lord God/Jesus need to strive to keep our spiritual eyes and ears open.
            But the Sunday morning service only Christians are eventually going leave as the end times gets closer and closer. Not all of them but most of them.
            Blessings, brother.

          • Sharon_at_home

            A lot of bibles are based on the KJV like the NKJV. I think it even has some scripture changes, but I can’t remember it that particular one did.
            In quite a few places in OT talk about the end times, but Jesus is the best to read for that knowledge. He tells us the way it will be at the end age. He doesn’t seem to hold anything back.
            I pray bibles didn’t edit Jesus’ words to all of us.

          • D.M.S.

            I’ll pray for that myself.
            I happen to have a old KJV that was printed in 1944.
            Collecting an old bible, might help. You can probably pick up one or two older bibles from most used bookstores, reasonably priced.
            Blessings, sister.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Yes you are quite right about used bookstores, as they will likely have some of the other versions there too. I also find them at second hand stores as well.
            I am blessed in a way because my family are not believers – we were not brought up in a Church life – I’ve been given every bible that is from ancestors in our family. I think I have 10 now. They are all KJVs but my ancestors kept newspaper and notes about prayers and events that had happened way before I was born.
            TBH I don’t read the other versions of the Bible. I feel it is the Word of God, and with the help of my Church friends, or my Pastor, I have learned much about what some scriptures mean in the KJV bibles. I would be checking back and forth to see if what the new version said what the KJV does.
            Are you in a Church or are you faithful personally and feel a church is not what you need in your journey?
            God bless brother. May God always give you peace.

          • D.M.S.

            I know the feeling. My dad was an atheist. My mom tried to get us to church for about a year when
            I was 6, I remember very little of it. Basically I was raised atheist. I became a Christian when I was 25 or 26. I have a niece that’s trying to live a Christian life.
            Yes I joined an interdenominational Christian church in the Midwest last year.
            I hadn’t gone for a lot of years. I was an alcoholic for a number of years. The good Lord had me quit drinking 3+ years ago.
            I’m quite happy that the Holy Spirit directed me to the church that I’m going to now.
            Blessings to you my sister in Christ.

    • Chris

      So what you’re saying is, don’t confuse you with the facts your mind is made up. That’s usually the attitude of someone with an extremely weak faith. I’d do something about that if I were you.

      • Amos Moses

        actually it is a sign of a person of strong faith who will not be moved ……… and that bothers you …….

    • Sharon_at_home

      This isn’t apostasy.Apostasy is “the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief.” This man did not leave or his faith but rather wanted the church to change for him.

      • Amos Moses

        Apostasy is the abandonment of truth ………….. the embrace of rebellion ……… a willful falling away from, or rebellion against, Christian truth. Apostasy is the rejection of Christ by one who has been a Christian

        G646
        ἀποστασία
        apostasia
        ap-os-tas-ee’-ah
        Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): – falling away, forsake.

  • meamsane

    Another Mock Marriage!!

  • yabruf

    Leviticus 20:13

    • TheLastHonestLawyer

      Do you follow all 613 laws given in the first five book of the Bible?

      • Ezra

        Dont have in Christ, however, we do not have the freedom to engage in certain sins i.e. infidelity in marriage, homosexuality, pederasty, and a whole host of other social sins, transgenderism among them.

        • TheLastHonestLawyer

          If you believe that Christ washed away all the old laws (which would include the Ten Commandments) then how do you justify quoting one of those laws in support of an argument?

          • Ezra

            Where did I say that Christ “washed away all the old laws”? Have you not heard that the Word of God stands forever? (Isaiah 40:8) also look at Heb 13:8

            Christ died to save us from our sins – he is the remedy. In the OT the Israelites were stuck with serpent bites while wandering in the wilderness God told Moses to erect a bronze serpent on a pole and that all who looked upon it would be healed – a foreshadowing of Christ upon the cross.

            Not all the laws of the OT are incumbent upon Christians such as dietary (unless Christians choose to keep kosher) but by and large the social laws as given in the Decalogue (the Ten Commandments) are as incumbent on us today as before. Alas, as St. Paul observes: “The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all impiety and injustice of men, who are seeking to suppress the truth by means of their unrighteous lives.” (Romans 1:18) So why would we discard “thou shalt not murder”? Yet people do it all the time.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            OK, I’ll ask again: if you don’t follow all God’s laws, how do you justify using them to condemn others? There are 613 commands from the Ruler of the Universe in first five books of the Bible. When and where did God repeal the rules regarding the uncleanliness of menstruating woman? When did he lose his love of animal sacrifices?

          • Ezra

            OK, I’ll reply again (just like above). In Christ all our obligations under the old testament laws HAVE BEEN satisfied. Those old laws convict us of sin and Christ FREES us from our sins. You asked when and where (with your two examples) – ON THE CROSS OF CALVARY

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            Then why does Simon Peter need a direct vision from God in Acts 10 to eat unclean foods? Seems to me that he still thought the old laws were in place, to the point of arguing with a divine vision!

          • Ezra

            Because he was a Jew culturally. He grew up under the law and he still wrestled with the new faith in Christ. Remember he was even going into the house of a non-Jew – oh horrors! lol. Now that vision shown him by the Holy Ghost was indeed supernatural, he goes in and eats and guess what the pagan world was to begin its long journey with the Jewish God (Yahua in Hebrew) and his only begotten Son (Yashua Hamashiach, or in Greek, Jesus Christ). This Man Jesus turned the world upside down.

            And I do believe the old laws are in place for non-Christian Jews – its called Kosher.

          • Chris

            “Have you not heard that the Word of God stands forever?”

            So when are you going to try and get the government to re-institute slavery?

          • Ezra

            ??? (I presume you might have that evil notion that what is ten must be now?) why not have the Garden of Eden forever as well? Have you not heard that that the Lord God is the author of the material/physical laws of the Universe where change is constant as it applies to Man? While His Word stands forever, Man changes. Sheesh, don’t they teach logic in school anymore?

          • Chris

            So the word of God stands forever but what is then doesn’t have to be now. Your flexibility is amazing.

          • Sharon_at_home

            I believe the things in God’s Word can help with today’s problems if you are talking to someone who has thorough knowledge and a good understanding of the bible. My Pastor tells me to bring my son with me to church and he will answer all his disbelieving questions. My son won’t take the challenge.
            God himself said very clearly in the bible that His word would last forever. That’s again what believers would believe.
            Chris, I know you don’t have an understanding of why Christians do the things we do. I also wish I could help you to at least understand the reasons why.
            If I remember correctly, you do believe people have the right to their beliefs but that it shouldn’t be something that all society has to agree with. I agree.
            There are many things that are going on in this day that give the impression that everyone is filled with hate. I wish it were different.

          • Chris

            I find myself agreeing almost totally. I don’t think everyone is filled with hate though. There are many good, kind people around. We don’t hear about them because helping people is just part of their life. Not something they make a big fuss about.

            As to your pastor I’d take his challenge. 🙂

          • Sharon_at_home

            We live in Canada so I think you are a long way away. 😀
            If he weren’t busy getting ready for a ceremony making him a Bishop, I’d ask him if he’s find a way to do that with you. But now isn’t a good time to ask.
            I agree that most people, including me, helping people is part of my life too.
            What I meant was in the media it seems that everyone is acting hateful and I try not to group people together like they all get together and sin. Some times I fall back into the habit from a long time ago.
            I’m glad you agreed. Not all Christians are critical of other people. I’m trying to get people to realize that the media Christians do not represent all Christians. I’d like to make a difference. 😀 blessings!

          • Chris

            “We live in Canada so I think you are a long way away. :D”

            Just half a world away. I live in Australia.

            “If he
            weren’t busy getting ready for a ceremony making him a Bishop, I’d ask
            him if he’s find a way to do that with you. But now isn’t a good time to
            ask.”

            I can understand that. He might be a wee bit busy. Please give him my congrats though.

            “I agree that most people, including me, helping people is part of my life too.”

            I’m glad.

            “What
            I meant was in the media it seems that everyone is acting hateful and I
            try not to group people together like they all get together and sin.
            Some times I fall back into the habit from a long time ago.”

            The media always sensationalize. It’s the way they sell papers or get people to watch the news. I prefer to get my news from sources on the net. There are some pretty good net papers.

            “I’m glad
            you agreed. Not all Christians are critical of other people.”

            Absolutely. I’ve known several in my life.

            “I’m trying
            to get people to realize that the media Christians do not represent all
            Christians.”

            That’s a big job you’re tackling.

            “I’d like to make a difference.”

            I truly hope you do.

            “:D blessings!”
            And to you.

          • Sharon_at_home

            I will try to get a chance to tell my Pastor your congrats! He is a personal friend that I met not long before I went to the church. God brought me to the church in so many steps, when I look back I realize why everything happened the way it did those years before. We actually moved 3 times while He waited for me to come to Him because the timing was important to it. And then when I finally did go for a one time visit I really felt like God was telling me that I was home. I’d never had that experience at any other church I’ve visited. My husband was a Catholic growing up and he hated all religions because of their attitude of telling everyone that they were sinners and if they didn’t stop sinning they were doomed to Hell. This was done in a threatening way every Sunday. He swore he would not step into a church again and didn’t for 40 years. He came only to support me because we knew it was a Jamaican church and we would stand out. At the time it felt intimidating especially because I didn’t know how the people of the church would accept us. Anyway, my husband felt the same way and that is why we stayed with this church. My religion is Apostolic BTW
            If you’d like to see my Pastor do his sermons, we live stream it on Sundays – he’s got a fairly big following too. I’d be happy to send you the link, privately. I don’t want people to go there to be rude in the comments. Let me know if you are interested. Blessings!

          • Sharon_at_home

            I have heard that a lot of people feel their job is like slavery. Maybe that is what slavery looks like today?
            Some places do treat the employees badly, and the people often are too poor to quit (depending on where – some places don’t allow them to quit.)
            I read a poster on another article that explained slavery in the bible. I am not as knowledgeable about the bible as he is, but he gave scripture to show that what they called slavery in the bible was often (not always to my knowledge) more like a combination of someone taking a loan out and working for the person to pay the debt. It was a way to keep their families alive and by being slaves it would mean his whole family was taken care of – I don’t recall anything about wages added beyond the payment of a loan, so the Loaner would have to care for them.
            So the slavery is about the ones taken in war times. Considering the times, conquering during war meant taking everything of the enemies. With so many men dead the women and children would not be taken care of, so really – and no I am not supporting slavery I just want to think about the whole picture, and that includes how these people did things because they would be different than in today’s world.
            It is possible that taking the women and children to their place to work for their ‘keep’.- insert slavery – was originally to not leave them without their men because it would be a bad situation in a lot of ways, and by making them slaves, they would be better off than left behind with nothing. In history many men were very compassionate to women and wouldn’t want them to suffer.
            I don’t know and I know they had bad owners sometimes, but it would make sense and God would have wanted the women and children to survive and taken care of.
            I’m just trying to look at the situation as fairly as I can. Times were different in those times and so life was different. The idea to take the women and children and having them work for you could have been working for a long time before God defined it for them. He told them all that he wanted them to follow, but if not everyone followed one of the rules, which is likely, He had to say something about it to encourage them not to be abusive as well. God made the abuses slaves suffered defined as such and by stating what to do with these people And how they are to be treated was the way that God cared for His people.
            There were punishments for abusing slaves as well.
            I hope I helped you to see things at a slightly different angle. Blessings Chris!

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    Sodom’s youth have lust over anyone as in Genesis. The Englishmen should live to liberate the Romanian sex slaves instead of doing this.

    • Colin Rafferty

      Why not both?

  • Reason2012

    Yes, those into polygamy, incest or even bestiality wish society would “move on with the times” as well.

    • Colin Rafferty

      Bestiality is wrong because the animals cannot consent. What is wrong with polygamy or incest, if all involved are consenting adults?

      • Amos Moses

        nothing …. if you enjoy webbed hands and feet, hemophilia, genital warts, and other various venereal diseases ……….

        and how do you know animals cant consent …… they could be appointed a guardian ad litem who would then give “consent” ……… and you could marry your dog …….

        • Colin Rafferty

          That doesn’t make sense at all. What does any of that have to do with consensual sex between adults?

          • Amos Moses

            i guess you live in Egypt …… denial seems to be your forte ………..

          • Colin Rafferty

            No really, you mention two different kinds of things:

            > webbed hands and feet and hemophilia

            This has nothing to do with sex.

            > genital wards and other venereal diseases

            Everyone who has sex is at risk of these, not just polygamy or incest.

            Your comments have nothing to do with anything. Can you please explain?

          • Amos Moses

            again ….. denial …… procreation between family members ….. well documented results …………. has everything to do with it …… your denial of the truth does not alter the truth …… and you lie to yourself ………….

          • Colin Rafferty

            Oh, I see our confusion now. I was only talking about incest. Not about having children.

            Incest is just the act of sex between close family members, not the act of getting pregnant. I certainly agree that it’s a bad idea for two closely related people to have children.

            The good news is that the vast majority of times people have sex, they don’t get pregnant, because birth control is a thing that we modern folks have. Also, there are lots of ways of having sex that don’t have the possibility of getting pregnant.

          • Amos Moses

            sex ……… LEADS TO CHILDREN ……….. take a science course ….. take a biology course ….. common sense is not a gift …. it is a curse …. because you have to deal with all the people who do not have it ………..

          • Colin Rafferty

            I thought I was clear. Sex only leads to children if you want it to. Some kinds of sex never lead to children (like that sodomy that you always like to talk about). People can use birth control. Most adults will have sex thousands of times in their life, yet only have a handful of children.

            It’s not the act of incest that is a problem, but having the children.

            So you wouldn’t have a problem with same-sex incest then, right? Since there’s no chance of children.

          • Amos Moses

            sex leads to children whether you want it to or not …………. again ………. common sense is not a gift …. it is a curse …. because you have to deal with all the people who do not have it ……….. sodomy is not sex ….. it is SODOMY ………….. BC is not 100% effective ……… being ignorant is curable ……….. STOP IGNORING …………

          • Colin Rafferty

            True that birth control is not 100% effective. Fortunately, abortion is still legal. People only have children if they want to.

            So the only problem you have with incest is that there might be children. So if one or both are unable to conceive (tube tied, vasectomy, etc), then it’s fine? If not, why not?

          • Amos Moses

            NOPE …. they have children and it is not under their control …… the MURDER of children is under their control ……

          • Colin Rafferty

            Ok, so as long as the couple is infertile, incest is fine. Right?

            If not, why not?

          • Amos Moses

            infertile as defined by what ………… spurious question ………. if it is wrong ….. then it is always wrong ….. there is very little in the way of proof that anyone is “infertile” ….. i know many “infertile” couples who gave birth …………

          • Colin Rafferty

            You keep saying it’s wrong, but avoiding saying why. Assuming no one involved can get pregnant, why is it wrong?

            As for what “infertile” mean, I already said. If the woman had her tubes tied. The man had a vasectomy. For example. But make the assumption. They can’t get pregnant. What’s the problem?

          • Amos Moses

            again ………. common sense is not a gift …. it is a curse …. because you have to deal with all the people who do not have it ……….. if it is wrong ….. then it is always wrong …… the science is available to you ….. you are rejecting truth ……… you are now the 4 year old always asking why ……. if it is wrong for the genetic damage it causes …… whether they are infertile or not ….. and you have no foolproof way of proving that ……. then it is always wrong ………. vasectomies can repair or have not been correctly performed …… nature finds a way ……

          • Colin Rafferty

            I ask why over and over because you refuse to say why. And saying “if it is wrong … then it is always wrong” is not giving a justification, but just making an assertion.

            That’s okay, you just don’t like it, but have no reason for stopping other people. So just don’t do it.

          • Amos Moses

            “I ask why over and over because you refuse to say why”

            here is why …. and i told you in the beginning of this …… SCIENCE ….. BIOLOGY …… GENETICS …….. all well documented ……… go take some courses …….. it is not an assertion …… now you have one thing left to do ….. take your hands …. place them on your shoulders ….. right hand on right shoulder ……. left hand on left shoulder ………… palms up ….. and push up ….. and extract your skull from the dark dank place you have it buried ……

          • Colin Rafferty

            Okay, fine. The only single problem you have with incest is that someone might have a baby. Okay.

          • Amos Moses

            the only problem is that it is wrong ….. there is a trust relationship in the family ….. sex destroys that ….. and it destroys the family …….. but that would be your goal ………

          • Colin Rafferty

            You are assuming the other relatives would be unhappy. That’s an interesting assumption to make, but not necessarily true. The rest of the family could be happy that the two of them are so in love and happy with each other.

          • Amos Moses

            you are assuming they would not …… and it makes no difference if they object or not ……. it is wrong and will always be wrong ………..

          • Colin Rafferty

            See, you keep saying that. “it will always be wrong”. But you don’t actually have a reason.

            Okay, I’m being unfair. You have two reasons now, each of them pretty poor:

            1. There may be a child, even though they are septuagenarians on birth control.
            2. You assume that the rest of the family will be unhappy. Why? Just because.

            But really, push comes to shove, this is just something that you would not want to do, and therefore, no one should do it. Because it’s wrong. For you.

          • Amos Moses

            why do you keep ignoring the reason …………. i have given it to you TWICE ….. would a third make any difference …….

          • Amos Moses

            “1. There may be a child, even though they are septuagenarians on birth control.
            2. You assume that the rest of the family will be unhappy. Why? Just because.”

            1. we do not make exceptions based on the arcane ……
            2. and i just said ….. makes no difference if the approve or not ….. does not change anything ………

            so basically ….. you have no reason ….. just garbage you want to make up ……. because it right ….. for you …….

            FYI ….. there is no your truth and my truth …… so fallacious reasoning ………

          • Colin Rafferty

            Yes, if it is right for some people, and they are not harming anyone else, it us up to the person who wants to restrict it to show why.

          • Amos Moses

            they are harming everyone else ………….. so no … it is not up to the person …….

          • Colin Rafferty

            Who are they harming? You? How does it harm you? Or someone else?

          • Amos Moses

            we live in a society ….. it harms ….. ummmm …. how does the “constitution” put it …… THE GENERAL WELFARE ………..

          • Colin Rafferty

            It’s okay if you can’t figure out how it harms anybody. I already know it doesn’t.

          • Amos Moses

            it harms EVERYONE in the society ……… it destroys family …. the basis for a productive society ….. harming the DNA of the society harms everyone ……

          • Colin Rafferty

            You never did explain how it destroys families. Some families will dislike it, and some will embrace it. Like many things that are possible in a free society.

          • Amos Moses

            you do not want a free society ….. because what you want will destroy any society ………. so just another lie ………..

          • Colin Rafferty

            No, I really do want a free society. You don’t think that it’s a good idea, but that doesn’t mean I don’t want it.

          • Amos Moses

            no …. there is a line between freedom and chaos …. you desire chaos …. what you are saying you want brings chaos …………

          • Colin Rafferty

            No, it doesn’t bring chaos. Love brings happiness to the people involved. And the people that are not involved aren’t affected. Unless, that is, they like to stick their noses into other peoples’ private lives.

          • Amos Moses

            whether you recognize that truth or not ……. it does ……..

          • Colin Rafferty

            I understand exactly where you are coming from, and why our opinions diverge. You think that if something is not explicitly shown to be safe, it should not be allowed. I believe that unless something is shown to be harmful, is should be allowed.

            So to you, unless otherwise known, you assume things will move to chaos. I don’t buy that.

          • Amos Moses

            no … you do not ……. what you are advocating is chaos ……. under the pretend guise of “freedom” …. and “love” ….. neither of which you have any understanding ……….. you have a perverted view of what they are ……. but you really have no idea ………………

          • Colin Rafferty

            You keep claiming “chaos”, but never explain why. It’s okay that you don’t understand why you think there will be chaos, other than you think that it’s wrong. And you think it’s wrong because of the chaos.

            But it’s not really circular reasoning you have. It’s just that this is one of your axioms. You just don’t realize it. Think about why you feel this way. Dig deep into this. In the end, you’ll realize it’s just your religious teachings, and not any objective morality.

            Which is fine. You ought to be able to follow your own religious beliefs. That’s what freedom means. You just can’t impose your religious beliefs on others.

          • Amos Moses

            when you can tell me what “love” is ….. and what “freedom” is ….. then we might have a basis to discuss it …… but we do not share the same definition ….. and until then we have no basis for discussion ………….

          • Colin Rafferty

            Right. Your definition of “freedom” is “free to do what I think is ok”.

          • Amos Moses

            wrong …. and why we have no basis for discussion ……..

          • Parodyx

            I would REALLY like to know how it has EVER destroyed even a single family.

          • Amos Moses

            really …. you think incest does not destroy families …… WOW ………. talk about disconnected from the truth of science, biology, genetics, REALITY and the LAW ………. again ……. WOW ……….

  • Croquet_Player

    Before you know it, people will be eating shellfish. It’s a scandal, I tell you.

    • Chris

      Soon it will lead to dogs and cats living together. It’s the end of the world I tells ya.

      • Sharon_at_home

        No no no. Dogs and cats fall instead of rain together. Isn’t that enough? Why do they have to… wait a minute. I had a dog and cats that got along great! He actually took over the kittens once they were running around the house. we used to laugh and call him Uncle Buddy. We even wondered if the kitten that died was his as it was a totally black cat and the other 2 were calico. I know that cats can have many fathers per litter, but it was the way my Buddy acted towards the kittens too. I attributed it to his being an Uncle but now I think he was playing a Daddy role, rather than an uncle. Life is strange.
        dogs and cats are living together! So now the end of the world is going to happen? 😀

        • Bob Johnson

          We actually had a golden retriever who started nursing an abandoned kitten we took in.

          • Sharon_at_home

            See It’s happening already! LOL!
            Animals seem to be a whole lot less discriminating than humans, don’t you think?

        • Chris

          Dogs and cats getting along? A sure sign of the end of the world. Just watch the Ghostbusters. 🙂

          I had a dog like Buddy. He got along great with my two cats. Trouble was among the three of them the two cats were the boss. I even saw him go to jump up on a bed. The two cats, who were already curled up there snarled at him and he curled up on the floor instead, grumbling every so often. I had to laugh.

          • Sharon_at_home

            ROFLMBO That’s a great story.

  • BuckeyePhysicist

    Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis.

  • Oboehner

    Priest: “I would be remiss in my duty, if I did not tell you, that the idea of…
    intercourse – your firm, young… body… comingling with… withered
    flesh… sagging breasts… flabby b-b-buttocks… makes me want… to
    vomit.” – Harold and Maude

    • Colin Rafferty

      You made me laugh out loud just remembering that speech. That’s one of the funniest single speeches in movies. I can picture clearly in my head him stammering over b-b-buttocks.

      • Oboehner

        Watched it in school a few years ago.

    • Amos Moses

      that was a good movie ………..

  • Wyostk

    Praying for Colin.
    And, thanks Doug for defending the faith. Continue to stand, and may God Bless You.

    • Colin Rafferty

      Not to be egotistical, but am I the Colin you are praying for? If so, what are you praying is going to happen?

    • https://www.facebook.com/doug.bristow3 Doug Bristow

      Just saw this. Thank you my brother for what you said for my sake and for Colin.

      To God be the increase and the glory.

  • Dianne

    He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is FILTHY, let him be FILTHY still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. Revelation 22:11

    Without HOLINESS no man shall see the LORD. Hebrews 12:14

    Therefore HELL hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall DESCEND INTO IT. Isaiah 5:14

  • Mae Coker

    This man was correct in saying that this is HUMAN nature…we are all born into sin.Jesus told Nicodemus that we all must be born again to enter into the Kingdom of heaven…the one and only way to the Father is Jesus…Jesus was not OF this world and it’s sin nature..we must be changed into His likeness and image and it is done through the Holy Spirit and The Word of God ,it will renew the mind…Jesus has payed the sin debt but we must be born again and transformed by the renewing of the mind..Jesus prayed to the Father do not take them out of the world but keep them from the evil one…wickedness is only overcome through repentance and recieving Jesus Christ into your hearts…

  • http://www.dontneednostinkinwebsite.com/ Midlandr

    Disgusting

  • Joe Dokes

    Sodomites.

  • Chet

    It’s not the “evangelical fundamentalists” you need be concerned with, mister, as they’re only sinners same as you and me and all else. You should be concerned with what saith the Lord and you can start with reading your own Holy Bible, after praying first that the Lord would illumine your heart and mind to the truth… What is the average length of a man’s years, mister, remember?

  • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

    Live and let live. This harms no one.

    • Chet

      Respectfully, yes Sir, yes it does. When one knows the Lord Jesus Christ as his own personal Lord and Saviour and has experienced the joy of sins forgiven and forgotten, yet, the same bothers not to attempt to share the same good news with another fellow sinner such as was once shared with him, it amounts to harm for sure. This, as no man is assured of another sunrise and may die in his sins and be eternally lost, without Christ and without hope in the region of the damned known as Hell. Christ commissioned His own to preach the gospel unto every creature to the uttermost parts of the Earth. And why, because “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” II Peter 3:9, Holy Bible. God hath no pleasure in the death of the wicked but precious in the sight of God is the death of His saints… God bless.

      • Ezra

        Exactly right. I am so tired of hearing that social sons harm no one. The list of harms is extensive, however the ones who need to hear and repent are legion. I applaud your effort, yet the person to whom you responded exhibits little inclination to hear truth spoken. Like most of the world today he likely considers the truth to be harmful to those who need to hear it most.

        • Chet

          Well, brother, we praise the good Lord nonetheless…

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            I agree. Don’t bother others. Just do your praising and believe what you want.

          • Chet

            Sorry, orders from on high instruct us believers otherwise as found at Mark 16 and Matthew 28, Holy Bible. Upon delivering God’s good news, the rest is left to His Holy Spirit as we Christians have done our part and move on. They’re many who will respond positively and gain eternal life via the message of Christ and Him crucified on their behalf and who lives today and evermore with myriad of His saints…

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            How do you “know” that the Bible is the Word of God?

          • Chet

            The changes in my life for one, far from perfect indeed but far from what I once was. My new outlook on things for two. For three, I know the Holy Bible is the Word of God Almighty same as I know electricity works and that the wind starts somewhere, travels just so far at such and such speed and ends somewhere else some time later. Faith is the key and Christ is the only answer to man’s dilemma – sin…

          • Sharon_at_home

            I don’t work the same way as other Christians. If I quote scripture I explain it to give understanding to what Jesus meant. I believe that everyone needs to understand what Salvation is about, and how to get it.
            I will talk about sins, but maybe not a specific one, but instead I tell them of the sins and focus more on Jesus’ Love and Salvation than sins. I believe that is what Jesus wanted us to do.
            If you would like to know anything I’ll gladly help you with a better understanding if I can.
            Yes everyone is subject to their own beliefs. Most of the Christian Churches are off-shoots of other religions really.
            May My God bless you and give you more understanding about His scriptures.

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            How do you “know” that the Bible is the “Word of God?”

          • Sharon_at_home

            Well I’ve actually never thought of putting it into words before. But I’ll give you what I believe – it’s about faith, trust and loyalty and faithfulness between God and His people. It shows love and discipline. Mostly I think Jesus shows the Love that God had for us from the beginning. He was angry with us because of our sins against Him, but He found a way for reconciliation and it was done by Jesus dying as a sacrifice on the cross so everyone who believes in Christ,that he is God’s son, and He died on the cross exactly as prophecies at earlier times long before Christ was even born into the world.

            God’s chosen usually have a testimony about God showing in their lives. It gave them a sense that some things just don’t happen randomly. Like being pulled out the way before a car hit a sister, and when she turned around there was no one near enough to have pulled her back. I’ve heard many testimonies and they make me think about God’s power.

            He wants us to Walk by Faith, not by sight. that means you must believe in Him that He exists before you can believe believe in what Jesus did for us. and have the Faith that what He has had written is meant to help us with our lives and to have Salvation and the hope of Eternal Life.

            God can be felt all around you and if you honestly seek for Him you will find Him.

            I think believing is something that someone has to lead some people to before they will believe. The thing is God wants us all to make a decision about our belief with our free will. He wants people to truly desire to know Him and have faith in Him. not use His power to force you into it (which He could have done.). He wants willingness when people come to him and that is a belief that HE IS. before you can believe in what Jesus did for us and what it meant to all of us.

            Please remember I never said this was any more than how I think, not how everyone feels about the the truth of the Bible; just me.

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            Just a couple of things (sorry to be so picky, but I’m an incorrigible armchair philosopher).

            1. Sorry, but none of your response logically addressed the question. The holy books of all religion are about faith, trust, loyalty and faithfulness between God(s) and people. They are about complete devotion (love) to God(s) and all, in one way or another, insist on “God’s people” treating each other as they would expect those others to treat them.

            So, again, why do you believe the Bible is the Word of God (Yahweh) and not some other holy book and/or god?

            Are you saying that you believe it to be the Word of God because it says so in the Bible? That, of course, would be an invalid circular argument. What you would be saying is that the Bible is the Word of God because God tells us it is… in the Bible. The premise and the conclusion are the same.

            2.

            I think believing is something that someone has to lead some people to before they will believe.

            This, too, seems to be a circular argument.

            “This is like getting an e-mail from a Nigerian prince, offering to give you his billion dollar fortune — but only after you wire him a “good will” offering of $50,000. Of course, you are skeptical until you read the final line in the e-mail that reads “I, prince Nubadola, assure you that this is my message, and it is legitimate. You can trust this e-mail and any others that come from me.” Now you know it is legitimate… because it says so in the e-mail.” (copied from LogicallyFallacious dot com. It’s a better example than one I initially wrote.)

          • Sharon_at_home

            1. I agree and I’m sorry I made it sound like it is like all the others. I have read a couple of the other holy books, although not completely. I guess I can’t explain why I believe it more than it’s a belief I have because I have had the Lord do things in my life, that I believe could only be done by him. But that was when I was also a believer by faith.
            I walk by Faith, Not by sight. For me, my I have a very strong belief and I won’t stand down from it.
            I’m sorry, but I guess you need to believe in God before anything else is made clear to you.

            2. Then I just said it wrong. I should have presented it as “Some people have to be led to the point that they understand and believe.” Is that a better way of putting it without being a circular argument?

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            Thank you for the clarification and certainly for the civility. I don’t usually get a civil response to my questions on these sites.

            I’ll preface my response by saying that I, of course, view all organized religions through the same lens. I understand why you believe. I was once a very deep believer, but, as I explained to Chet yesterday, I had three “revelations” that stunned me to the point I knew I had to enroll in college and get a much better education in world religions (including the origin of Christianity), philosophy and paleoanthropology.

            It was a journey from the religion I was taught to believe to de facto atheism, and I’ve never been more happy and free in my life.

            So, to your point about your belief being confirmed by your belief that it was the Christian god that provided you with solutions in your life that you could not have gained believing any other religion, it should be said that believers in other gods tell of the same happenings.

            As well, the “visions” people have in near death experiences coincide with their religion, no matter which religion they believe. Therefore, the proof of one’s religious belief, like religion itself, is entirely subjective.

            This does not mean that you are wrong, but it equally does not say that they are wrong.

            Concerning (2), a very good attempt, but it doesn’t quite get away from the circular argument.

            What could you possible show someone about the Bible that would extricate you from your own circular belief–wouldn’t that just transfer it to the next person? Why would they believe it, because it’s written that they should?

            And, wouldn’t that go for belief in any other religion? I once believed in the Bible quite deeply because I was taught to believe it. I was, as a child, led to it and I came to believe that some of the prophetic-like dreams I had were messages from the Christian god.

            But, I now understand that had I been taught to believe in different god, I would have believed that it was that god sending me the dreams.

            My philosophy now is simply to try to do unto others as I would have them do unto me. I think that is all the world needs.

          • Sharon_at_home

            I certainly cannot complain about your philosophy as it has always been my own. I grew up living that way and spent my growing years that way too. But I was not brought up in the Church. I went to Sunday School and only really remember the stories I got to colour in! (ooo boy!!) I knew about Jesus’ birth but I did not know about anything else at all. When I started my church, it was with a clean plate, so no knowledge was need to be moved over to allow me to hear the Word.
            I think what attracted me to my Church was that I had met a group of men that were playing soccer and were taking their pictures while playing. I was more than welcomed into the group even though no other woman was allowed even to watch (They wanted it to be about the Men’s Fellowship)
            I came to greatly respect them because they went out of their way to be kind to everyone – I remember at the beginning I heard them say Sorry for taking the ball away from another player! This is what I thought Christians were supposed to be like! They never bothered me about religion, they never pushed any of their beliefs on me over 7 years. Finally they asked me to visit their church because they had talked about me at the church wanted them and I to meet. It honestly took a while mostly because you see, they were all Jamaican, and I am Caucasian. So I was not sure how to expect the visit to be like. They assured me the congregation would be kind to me and I felt they really wanted me to go, so I did. My husband came even though he was angry with the Catholic Church because of his childhood, and swore that he’d never be a part of a Church again. He was only there to support me.
            I heard a voice(God) tell me I was home. I felt amazing by the time the visit was over. So did my husband. We decided to keep going, which I think surprised them. My Pastor however was really supportive then and has been ever since. I’ve learned an amazing amount of information because of his sermons, his teaching, and from our own discussions. I feel comfortable with my new life and have since I started.
            It did take some time for all of us to adjust. We all went through things that were because of a difference of outlook and culture, but we’ve made it through. I hope I’ve made a difference just because they don’t trust Caucasians because of the way they’ve been treated. Some are still wary, but the majority has come to know me and are a blessing to me. But I don’t go because of them. It’s all about Jesus. If they didn’t get along with me I’d have been disappointed but I would still want to go. They don’t do the routine the same as other churches. We sing Worship and Praise as well as a Scripture Lesson, and of course the Sermon. There is an attitude of how Jesus loves us, rather than lamenting about how terrible sin is and about Hell. My Pastor feels we should want to know about God’s Love and the good things about it. He tells us about the whole bible and helps us understand the scriptures of the whole bible, but the Gospel is the most important thing because it is about Jesus’ Love and our Salvation.
            I’m intrigued about people of the other religions having near-death experiences as I’ve never seen anything about them. I am interested in the other religions but I am firm in my belief in my God and don’t think knowing about them would change my mind about that. I will have to google it and look at it. Thank you for directing me to it. 😀
            I guess the difference between us is that I did not grow up with religion in my life. I never knew anything but the golden rule “was like what the bible said” and the Lord’s Prayer – I knew it by heart all my life – and the stories from Sunday School. I wasn’t told about rules and sins, I was taught morals and behaviour from my parents.
            I can see other religions being closely related to each other in a lot of ways. There have been times when I wonder if they all have the same God but He used His knowledge and power to make himself different to be more of a God that they would be able to worship. Most of them seem to have a lot of the basics in them. I know they have the “golden rule” in most religions in their holy books. So what you say doesn’t surprise me. In a way, I think God wants us all of us to love each other and be good to each other regardless of our religion.
            I appreciate what you said about civility. I used to get angry with some of the posters but then I realized I was judging them like they were judging my friends. But I’ve always tried to be polite. Every Christian should be able to behave properly, but sigh, some don’t care, or they believe they are doing the right thing by being rude – although they don’t classify it as rude. I’m glad I am able to discuss things without being obstinate so I can usually have some good discussions and learn a lot about other people’s views as a bonus! I don’t dismiss what the bible says, and I often try to explain a Christians view of looking at the topic of discussion, but I use scripture for it and my gift for seeing the other side of things, and I seem to help them somewhat. If nothing else, I refuse to be a Christian who scares people because of my faith. I’ve seen young people literally look terrified by me in my Church clothes. It was awful! They looked to scared for me to go up to them to tell them they didn’t have to be afraid of me. It’s made me realize that some Christians are not very nice to people and it makes us all look bad. I’d like to change that view, and I’m hoping that over time my way of looking at people in public who are supposed to be loved and instead hear hate in their voices.
            Take care and please feel free to ask me anything – but know I am by no means perfect, but I’ll do my best to help you understand what you don’t understand. May my God bless you!

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            I will reply to you tomorrow. I went on a long bicycle ride today. It was far too beautiful a day to pass that up. I’ll just say here that I truly appreciate your friendly civility.

          • Sharon_at_home

            That’s fine with me I’m in no hurry. Take your time please.
            It was a great way to enjoy a sunny day, I’m sure you must feel invigorated by your ride.
            I couldn’t treat you any differently. You have been civil with me too.
            and I appreciate that too.
            Talk to you next time!

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            Thank you for your patience. So much happened in politics yesterday impelling me to listen and read articles on the Internet most of the day.

            Fascinating to say the least. It looks like one person, the Deputy AG, had the courage to do the right thing and appoint a nonpartisan, special counsel to carry on the Trump-Putin-Flynn-Tillman-? connection. Trump is livid. He won’t be able to control him.

            Also, there’s an investigation into his financial dealings with foreign governments, Russia in particular. What a mess.

            Yes, I’m a political junky. What I “know that I don’t know,” I dig for it on objective sites.

            I enjoyed reading your evolution to kindness and acceptance. It’s amazing that I had to set my faith aside in order to study those concepts that I’d not been taught.

            I think fact that knowledge was withheld from me, even in high school, bothered me quite a bit, until that discomfort empelled me, after college, to write a novel to describe what the world would look like if universal empathy, not self interest, were humanity’s primary motivating force (think John Lennon’s Imagine) and what it would take, theologically or via humanism to make it a reality.

            But given my understanding of our genetic heritage, it’s a pipedream, at least for (likely) many centuries to come (if humans survive).

            You remind me of a dear friend in Alabama whom I met online in (what else?) a theological debate. She happened to be the moderator and was apparently drawn to my arguments, especially my wish for the future of the world. She is a Baha’i. They desire the same as me for the future, but through a god “with a thousand faces.” That’s my phrase, not hers.

            She was drawn to the Baha’i religion in virtually the same manner you were drawn to Christianity. These folks look at all the world’s holy books, pick out the common threads of peace and love, and toss out the rest as human imaginings (mostly untrue–such as the world wide flood, the Tower of Babel, the invasion and genocide of Canaan, etc).

            She had given me her email address and we began a lengthy, civil theological debate. I loved it. So well did we get along, that she edited my novel. She liked it, but was a bit bothered by the section that portrayed a trial of the Judeo-Christian god in an ethereal court. But as for the ending, she was delighted.

            Your experience with good, empathetic people took you to Christianity, hers took her to Baha’ism. Were I to be a religious person again (unlikely to the extreme), I’d most likely be a Baha’i.

            I, like you, have no problem with believers in any faith. I do, however, have a problem with fundamentalists who insist that the rest of society must bend to their beliefs. This attitude has made its ugly way into politics, sometimes leading to laws designed to force those beliefs on others (e.g., exclusively Christian prayer in public schools, creationism in science classes, sectarian prayers at public meetings, funneling taxpayer dollars to religious schools, outlawing some people’s right to marry the person they love, etc. [it’s a long list]).

            I do understand their motivation, however. Every person of every religion believes everyone else should follow his. I don’t mind that belief, I just don’t want them to use the government to push it.

            I do wish you happiness and may empathy be your brightest guiding light.

          • Sharon_at_home

            It’s not a problem at all. I don’t like spending all day on this forum but I do like to reply to others and that seems to be taking longer because I tend to ramble with an applicable story a lot.
            TBTH I am not into politics in general. I ask questions about articles about politics but I have never had the head for knowing the who’s who, and what’s what in Politics.
            I hope we can still talk about our philosophies of life and religion. I have enjoyed them.
            I’m sorry I can’t discuss politics, but I am certain that others on this board are ‘into’ politics that would be happy to discuss it with you. I’m discovering that there are a lot of people here that prefer to discuss, but because someone attacks their beliefs, they act defensively and more or less, they attack back.
            But when I approach most with questions asked in an honest way, they are quite willing to discuss things and are usually helpful with the questions, and they will tell me if they don’t know themselves, which is always nice.
            How you approach people on comment boards makes a world of difference to your experience, don’t you think?
            Do you think I’ll make a difference if I keep talking about it? And show the same behavior myself? If I could it would prove that one person can make a difference, right? I’ve always wanted to make a difference but we often don’t get to see the results from people we help, especially on the internet. I know I’ve made a difference in a number of children’s lives when my children were small and I could be more aware of things being in a classroom, and they rarely don’t want to talk about it if you ask. I just took the friendly question to another extent and let the teacher know so it could be addressed with the parents, and hopefully have the problem relief that the child needs. I didn’t always get to see the results and I know sometimes when you help someone, your help might not show until a long time afterward, but it may still be in the person’s mind and able to be utilized.
            I guess I try to get a bigger picture than what is obvious to the world about situations, and try to help at a more meaningful level that would that the person would be able to associate with their own lives and be clearer to them because of it.
            Ok that’s it for this one! LOL
            God’s blessings Hobbesian, Take care and don’t stop smiling.
            If you smile when you are in public, especially at our age, peoplewonder what mischief we are thinking about! lol!

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            How you approach people on comment boards makes a world of difference to your experience, don’t you think?

            Yes. Start out belittling someone and they immediately circle their wagons and fire back. Nothing accomplished, nothing gained.

            One of my favorite philosophers is John Stuart Mill. He was a giant in the area of free speech and civility. According to him, it is not good to silence anyone for two main reasons: it could deprive the community of adding to their pool of ideas and, if the ideas are bad, the community knows whom to beware. A silent enemy is more dangerous than an open one. As well, I’ll add that it is always possible that if one cannot reason with such an individual, then others looking on might benefit from the exchange.

            His philosophy is the main reason I go to religious and political blogs, especially religious blogs. It’s an unending battle to convince good folks that their religious beliefs are fine, but they should not attempt to push them on society by political means. Live and let live.

            A god that would punish a nation for the sins of a few cannot be a benevolent and merciful god.

            Do you think I’ll make a difference if I keep talking about it? And show the same behavior myself? If I could it would prove that one person can make a difference, right?

            Yes, you are likely to make a difference as I’m sure I will. I think perhaps that both you and I can make a difference if we try to stay with the Golden Rule concept rather than direct theological or humanistic arguments. Of course, the Golden Rule is something that both religion and humanism follows. I posted my complete philosophy on this subject. If you wish to read it, just google “Empathy: Bringing down the walls, one brick at a time”

            Here’s a quote from Thomas Paine that I placed at the beginning of Part one of my novel:

            I believe in the equality of man, and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy. (Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, Published in three parts, 1794, 1795, and 1807)

            Many people, including presidents of the past, believed that Paine was an atheist because of his book, The Age of Reason. Paine, however, was a Deist and an American patriot and hero. He was not a Christian–point he made abundantly clear in the afore mentioned book. He believed in one god, not a trinity of gods or avatars. He was a very good man.

            Take good care of yourself. You are a good woman.I hope your man appreciates you.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Thank you, you have a good night. Thank you I appreciate the compliment, and God brought me to my husband/him to me when we were young.
            He treats me far better than I feel I deserve. But he loves to do things with me and I do with him.
            We’ve known each other for 45 years and we lived together for 4 years before we married – now for 37 years . We had our first born 4 years later, a true gift from God as I surprised my doctors by getting pregnant at all. Then God blessed us with 2 more sons. They were gifted in school and have/are still doing wonderful things.
            Blessings!

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            You are happy and secure. I’m happy for you and all others who can achieve such a life. Be well and live long to you and your family. 🙂

          • Sharon_at_home

            Thank you again. I hope we can chat occasionally at least. I have enjoyed your posts. Please, keep in touch when you can, and I will do the same. May my God bless you and keep you and give you peace forever.

        • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

          the person to whom you responded exhibits little inclination to hear truth spoken.

          That is your subjective belief. It is not objective. Read my response to Chet. But, of course, you are entitled to that subjective beliefs. Every person is entitled to their own beliefs.

      • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

        When one knows the Lord Jesus Christ as his own personal Lord and Saviour and has experienced the joy of sins forgiven and forgotten, yet, the same bothers not to attempt to share the same good news with another fellow sinner such as was once shared with him, it amounts to harm for sure.

        That is your religious opinion. The “sharing” is quite often an in-your-face attempt to shame and even goes on in families–sometimes with damaging psychological effect and even sometimes culminates in suicide.

        Besides that, we live under a secular Constitution that puts every person’s views in matters of religion on equal footing. If fundamentalist Christians were to simply worship their god as they wish and leave others alone to seek happiness according to the dictates of their conscience, it would be a far better society. Despise their lifestyles all you want and believe they are bound for “Hell,” but just leave them in peace.

        But you accomplish nothing by quoting Bible verses to non-Christians like myself. It’s virtually the same as quoting something from any other myth, like the Satanic Bible, or quoting an Esop Fable.

        The thing that all deeply religious folks around the world, no matter what religion they believe to be the ultimate truth, virtually every person believes it because it was the religion taught to him from very early childhood and nurtured by family and society.

        Had you and I been born to a devout Muslim family, especially in a predominantly Muslim society, we would have been taught to believe devoutly in Islam and we would likely believe it, devoutly, throughout our lives. Too, we would be using the same arguments for its truth as you now give.

        So, one’s sacred beliefs are derived mainly from happenstance of birth (which family, which society) rather than factual truth.

        This is why religions chafe at each other and sometimes kill each other–radical Muslims far more likely to kill each other, and they certainly do–but, like fundamentalist Christians, convincing a devout Muslim that he needs to “come to Christ” will work about as well as a devout Muslim converting you.

        Religious “truth” is subjective truth. One cannot, for example, convence a recovering alcoholic having delirium tremens (DTs) that he does not see snakes. Certainly he “sees” them. It is true that he sees them. That is his subjective truth, but it is not objectively true.

        Religion is subjective. Reason is objective.

        • Chet

          Wow, mister, you’ve given me so much I I’ll likely not respond in kind. Para one: I wonder if that’s what happened to you as you indeed have very strong psychological tenets. Perhaps in one’s zeal to reach you with God’s good news they indelibly left you with a less than desirable view of Christ and just what He, and only He, can offer.

          Para two: Christians take their orders from Christ’s Great Commission as espoused in Mark 16 and Matthew 28 of the Holy Bible. And any grateful Christian will indeed share the goodness of Christ and as well the wages of sin with anyone who cares to listen. As someone was gracious enough to do the same with them at some point in their past, via preaching, teaching or perhaps with a simple gospel tract. And no caring, right minded man who believes God’s Word as recorded would care to see another man cast into the depths of Hell in any case… To so witness is God’s command and man’s duty and responsibility and one should do so out of love and concern.

          Para three: The huge difference in quoting God Almighty’s Word as opposed to that of some other being so worshipped is that God employ His own Holy Spirit to then speak to the heart of the hearer. There is none other such Holy Spirit to be found anywhere and in any other belief system.

          Para four – seven: You are in serious error here as well. Muslims are indeed turning to Christ in divers places around the world which is why so many are in-turn killed for their new found faith in the true and the living God who loves them as sinners and has provided the sole means by which they can have forgiveness and eternal life all at Christ’s expense.

          Lastly, “religion” is indeed subjective which is why Christians preach and teach the living Lord Jesus Christ and with Him it’s all about relationship as a born-again or saved man or woman, a new blood bought child of God. Thanks for this opportunity, Sir, to share God’s love and great mercy all in the person of His only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ of Calvary.

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            Actually Chet, I was raised to be a fundamentalist, probably just as you likely were. I was fortunate that I happened encounter three events that caused me to begin having doubts, enroll in college and study world religions (including the origin of Christianity), philosophy, and paleoanthropology.

            Here’s a brief of those events:

            The first event came in high school Bible class. I’d come across a verse in Revelation that seemed to be a contradiction of what I’m been taught to believe. In the next class, I asked the Bible teacher about it. She thought for just a moment, and then said, “Well, we aren’t supposed to know everything.” Hmmm, I thought. Then why was it written in God’s Word?

            The second came on a weekend in Army Basic Training at Fort Jackson. My friends who knew me to be a devout Christian, came to me and asked if I would please join in a debate they were having with an atheist. I did.

            I found that not only did he know more about the Bible than I (able to point out contradictions and logical fallacies), knew details about other religions (I knew virtually nothing about them), and he presented arguments for evolution. All I could do was spit Bible verses at him.

            Evolution was not mentioned in my high school, not even in biology class. So I found myself completely ignorant and, being a person who holds his integrity and intellectual honesty paramount, I had to withdraw from the field of battle and admit to my defeat.

            Thus, severely wounded by logical arguments I could not counter, I applied a brain splint of seasoned prayer and remain in mental convalescence for the next few weeks. I still hung on to my beliefs, but there were cracks in my theological walls of dogma–I was ignorant of other ideas. That’s when I began to consider returning to school as soon as I could.

            The third event came in AIT at Ft. Gorden. Three Mormons, having seen my piety at meals in the mess hall, invited me to join them off post for dinner. I accepted. Just before dinner, the three of them set about converting me to Mormonism.

            After debating for some time, I asked them “how do you know that you are right?” They all agreed that they knew in their hearts they were right.

            My reply was the final argument with myself as well as them. I said, “I’m sure you do, but so do the Catholics, the Protestants, the Jews, the Hindu and the Muslims. Everyone of every religions believes in his heart that he is right.”

            After taking my leave that evening, something nagged at me, but I didn’t know what. When I awoke the next morning, it hit me. The argument I’d posed to them, applied to me as well. I had no right to believe I had the theological truth than did anyone else on Earth.

            That is when I decided to, asap, go back to school and learn what I needed to know. I know this sounds trite, but I went to college precisely to learn the truth, as much as anyone could logically and honestly know it.

            There is more detail of my journey from faith to reason. If interested, it can be found by googling maxfurr . com (no spaces, of course) and click on RATIONALWRITER BLOG just below the heading.

            I’ll come back tomorrow and respond to your arguments.

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            No time today (too much to do). I’ll respond tomorrow for certain.

          • Chet

            I too have been and remain overtaken by events (OBE) and hope to restart out brief exchange sometime later..

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            Well, I finally got a “round tuit.” (boo, old joke)

            Perhaps in one’s zeal to reach you with God’s good news they indelibly left you with a less than desirable view of Christ and just what He, and only He, can offer.

            Apparently you haven’t been accepting my comments on my early years of Christian education.

            “psychological tenets?” If you mean “strong principles,” I agree. I didn’t reject other views and arguments as false before I understood more about them. Besides, if I didn’t know much about their views, how could I possibly argue effectively in favor of my own?

            Thus, I wanted an objective education in those other views in order to maintain my personal integrity. If I’d continued to spit out bible verses against arguments of which I knew virtually nothing, I would remain completely ignorant and intellectually dishonest.

            Para 2 and 3: You are only giving me what I gave to the atheist during my second “event.” It contains no real information, no evidence, only belief.

            Note that by the time of my second “event,” I’d been schooled in the Bible for roughly 20 years. After having my third “event,” I decided to educate myself, learn the objective facts of each argument and follow those arguments with honestyno matter how uncomfortable they made me feel. That is when I put the beliefs I’d been taught to believe in abeyance in order to study other ideas, especially evolutionary science, with an open mind.

            I hope that clears it up. I didn’t want to keep my mind in a lock box.

            The huge difference in quoting God Almighty’s Word as opposed to that of some other being so worshipped is that God employ His own Holy Spirit to then speak to the heart of the hearer. There is none other such Holy Spirit to be found anywhere and in any other belief system.

            But this is a non sequitur for the argument that the Bible should be believed over all other beliefs.

            Premise 1. The Christian God has a go-between spirit to speak to the heart of the believer.

            Premise 2. Other gods speak directly to the heart of the believer.

            Conclusion: Therefore, the Christian God is the real one.

            You are in serious error here as well. Muslims are indeed turning to Christ in divers places around the world which is why so many are in-turn killed . . .

            Haven’t studied Islam objectively? Please supply your objective (nonpartisan) source that shows more Muslims converting to Christianity than Christians converting to Islam.

            In fact, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. My source is the nonpartisan Pew Research Center. Google “The Future of World Religions: Population Growth Projections, 2010-2050”. But to clarify my thought on this, popularity does not equate to truth.

            I may have mentioned this before, but If all the world believed in the truth of a proposition, where there was no evidence in its support, the sheer weight of all that belief would lend not a nanogram to prove the truth of the proposition.

            I glad that you agree with me on the subjectivity of religion, but I’m not quite sure that you fully understand the difference between subjectivity and objectivity. A subjective idea in matters of religion has no independent confirmation–it’s all in the head of the one with the idea. There is, of course, “collective” subjectivity (my term). This is when a subjective idea is taught to others and they form a collective denomination and/or organized religion, composed entirely of folks who agree on the subjective idea.

            Original ideas in science (hypotheses) are subjective until they go through the testing fires of the scientific method and are then confirmed by agnostic*, independent scientists, thereby becoming objective. (*Agnostic: having no opinion on the validity of the hypothesis before conducting their own tests for verification.

            The bottom line here, Chet, is that you still haven’t given me the root cause of your belief in the Bible.

  • 0pus

    Both of them are beyond disgusting.
    This is all about envy of normal couples. Do they realize how silly they look?

  • BahamaMama

    First, anyone who would engage in sex with someone old enough to be his grandfather is mentally ill.

    Second, why is a supposedly “Christian” church ordaining homosexuals in the first place? People who blatantly disregard the moral teaching of the New Testament have no business acting as clergy. They should be booted out of the church until they repent of their sins. We don’t expect clergy to be perfect, but to openly celebrate sexual sin is grounds for dismissal. A church without moral standards is not Christian.

    • Ezra

      That church didn’t start out that way – but they illustrate how apostasy insinuates itself.

    • Colin Rafferty

      There are many different Christian sects. If you think this is bad, there are some that think they are literally eating Christ’s body, and drinking Christ’s blood. Not metaphorically, but literally.

      So what do you think is crazier, a Church that ordains homosexuals, or one that thinks it is literally eating its savior?

      • 0pus

        Hysterical twit.

    • Sharon_at_home

      I think he didn’t come out until he retired from his position with the Church.

  • Edward Ordway

    It is just an affirmation of the Scriptures concerning the falling away of those who claim to be Christians, but are not. Pay him no heed. His conscience is seared and his fate is sealed and there is nothing you can do to save him anymore

  • Roger Peritone

    At least he’s not some pederast, unlike so many other church leaders’ relationships we hear about. This at least has informed consent.