City Refuses Atheist Group’s Request to Remove Cross From Public Park

NEOSHO, Mo. — Officials at a city in Missouri have decided to refuse a prominent professing atheist organization’s request to remove a cross display from a public park.

The Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) sent a letter earlier this month to the mayor of the city of Neosho, stating that it had been informed by a complainant that a cross figure lies on the side of a hill in Big Spring Park. It asserted that the figure violates the U.S. Constitution because its public location sends the message that the government endorses Christianity.

“The government’s permanent display of a Latin cross on public land is unconstitutional,” the correspondence asserted. “The display of this patently religious symbol on public property confers government endorsement of Christianity, a blatant violation of the Establishment Clause.”

The organization also opined that the cross snubs those who are not Christian.

“The cross has an exclusionary effect, making non-Christian and non-believing residents of Neosho political outsiders,” the letter said.

It asked that the cross be removed from the park or moved to private property.

However, once residents of Neosho heard about FFRF’s effort, many urged officials not to cave to the Church-State separation group. The cross has been in place since 1930 without complaint.

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“In fact, all day today I got texts and messages and e-mails and calls saying, ‘Stand strong. Keep the cross,’ and so that’s what we’re going to do,” Mayor Ben Baker told Action 12 News.

City council members agreed, voting to keep the cross at the park. It said that FFRF failed to note that Eighth Circuit case law would affirm the legality of the display.

“It is the position of the city council that the correspondence forwarded by this organization was deficient in identifying authoritative case law within the Eighth Circuit, and is further of the opinion that, in fact, controlling case law would support the continued presence of the cross within the park,” city council said in a statement.

“Therefore, it is the unanimous opinion of the city council that the City of Neosho will not remove the cross or take any other actions which in any way compromises the long standing history of our city,” it said.

In March 1798, just 11 years after the signing of the U.S. Constitution, President John Adams declared, “[T]he safety and prosperity of nations ultimately and essentially depend on the protection and the blessing of Almighty God, and the national acknowledgment of this truth is not only an indispensable duty which the people owe to Him, but a duty whose natural influence is favorable to the promotion of that morality and piety without which social happiness can not exist nor the blessings of a free government be enjoyed.”

“[T]his duty, at all times incumbent, is so especially in seasons of difficulty or of danger, when existing or threatening calamities, the just judgments of God against prevalent iniquity, are a loud call to repentance and reformation.”

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  • Colin Rafferty

    My least favorite defense: “we’ve been promoting this religion for years, why should we stop now?”

    • Amos Moses

      so the answer is to promote secular humanistic religion ……….. hmmmmmm ….

      • Colin Rafferty

        Nope. The answer is to promote no religion. No one is asking to replace the cross with a secular humanist symbol. Why would you think that?

        • Amos Moses

          “The answer is to promote no religion”

          yeah … what i said …. “secular humanistic religion” ………. ruled on by the SCOTUS ……

          • Colin Rafferty

            Right, no religion. Not Christian, and at Secular Humanism. They want zero religious symbols at the park.

            Why do you keep imagining they want another religious symbol? They want none.

          • Amos Moses

            “They want zero religious symbols at the park.”

            right … because secular humanism is a big zero ….. no symbol is their symbol ….. so it is as i said …..

          • Colin Rafferty

            Hey, insult who you like. The reality is that they are looking for no religion. Saying no symbols means secular humanism is moronic.

          • Amos Moses

            right …. NOTHING ….. exactly what they offer ……. if it is “insulting” ….. sorry ….. that is what secular humanism offers ……….. and that is what they want displayed in any setting ….

          • Colin Rafferty

            Yes, they want nothing displayed. Why are you finding that hard to understand? If you want religion, don’t look to the government to provide it for you.

          • Amos Moses

            right … because government should promote ANTI-religion ….. and nothingness ….. and nothing ….. and that religion is being displayed …….

          • Parodyx

            “Nothingness” doesn’t mean “anti-religion”. It means nothingness.

          • Amos Moses

            right … secular humanism ….. nothingness …….. empty ….. devoid of anything real ….. and please forbid they view anything that melts the snowflakes ……

          • Parodyx

            Nothingness doesn’t mean secular humanism, unless you have a dictionary that says that.

            When your pantry is empty at home, do you open the cupboard door and see secular humanism?

          • Amos Moses

            dont need a dictionary to state the obvious …………….

          • Parodyx

            It isn’t obvious to anyone. There is no “agenda” when there is nothing in place. THAT is what should be obvious.

          • Amos Moses

            advocating the removal of all religious symbols is indicative of a vacancy of thought …. and of NOTHING to fill it ……….

          • Parodyx

            Religious symbols are just fine in places of worship. Where they aren’t fine is on government property. Removing them is the right move in this sense.

          • Amos Moses

            sure …. as secular humanists demand ……….

          • Parodyx

            No, I can name many religious people who agree.

          • Amos Moses

            so what ………. so they hold a secular humanist view under the guise of “religion” …………..

          • Parodyx

            No True Scotsman yet again.
            I am talking about self-professed Christians, Amos.

          • Amos Moses

            does not apply again ….. and it especially does not apply to this case and of a question on religion in general …….. FAIL ……….”No, I can name many religious people who agree.” “I am talking about self-professed Christians, Amos.” ….. no you were not …….

          • Amos Moses

            you continue to want to apply silly logic “rules” to religion ….. FAIL ….. apples and jack hammers comparison ……….. FAIL ……….

          • Parodyx

            It fits like a glove. To a T. Textbook.

          • Amos Moses

            sorry … nope … nothing in scripture to cover it ….. FAIL ………

          • Amos Moses

            Schrodinger’s cat ….. yet again ….. oh wait …. that cat was already dead ………..

            someone made up a silly “logic” rule that may apply to logic ….. but nothing else ….. no true a-theist ……..

          • Parodyx

            Going to call another large group of Christians you don’t know “false” or “apostate” because you disagree with them, Mr. Scotsman?

          • Amos Moses

            you said nothing about any such group …… Mr. Dyx …………

          • Parodyx

            Yes I did, Amos. “I can name many religious people who agree.”

            I didn’t poll them about which denomination they belong to. They are Christians though.

          • Colin Rafferty

            That’s a truly bizarre world view you have. That if someone doesn’t mention religion at all, they are anti-religious.

            The park also doesn’t have a war memorial. Does that mean they are anti-veteran? And anti-apple-pie, because they don’t have a statue of someone’s mother holding an apple pie?

          • Amos Moses

            No … a person who wants to remove any reference to religion is ANTI-RELIGION …………

          • Colin Rafferty

            Oh no, if they wanted, they could add other religious symbols, just like Greece v Galloway. It’s either/or. The government can have all religions, or none. It just can’t choose one.

            They can have an enormous Satanic Temple monument as well, and Jewish, and Muslim, and any other religion that wanted an enormous monument. Or none.

          • Amos Moses

            “They can have an enormous Satanic Temple monument as well, and Jewish, and Muslim, and any other religion that wanted an enormous monument.”

            sure ….. but the secular humanists demand that all others bend to their will of nothingness and empty philosophy ……….

          • Colin Rafferty

            Nope. You can believe whatever you like. No one’s forcing you to change your beliefs. You just can’t have the government enforce your religion against the rest of the people.

          • Amos Moses

            said nothing about changing beliefs …… the demand by secular humanists is that it be removed is pro their religious outlook …………and it is being imposed on everyone else …. exactly the opposite of what they profess ……. they demand the rest of us bend to their view ……….

          • Colin Rafferty

            The cross never belonged on government property. Removing it is not anti-religious, but setting things to as they should be.

          • tatoo

            So? Is that bad?

          • Amos Moses

            yes ……. it denies the truth ……..

          • Jason Todd

            If it was the crescent moon of Islam, the FFRF would be silent. So would Colin.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            You keep saying this, but have yet to provide any evidence.

          • tatoo

            No. Because a park is lovely without religious stuff in it. Because it is a park, not a church. Because not all citizens and taxpayers are Christian. Because the Constituion says so. I do not have a dog, so no dog is my dog. I do not have a religion, so no religion is my religion. I do not have a god, so no god is my god. I don’t have a yacht, so no yacht is my yacht. So what?

          • Amos Moses

            “Because it is a park, not a church. ”

            all of nature is Gods church ….. and the constitution is not my God ……….. might be yours though …..

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            The Constitution is the highest law in the United States, and it specifically prohibits the establishment of religion. The courts have been clear on this: religious displays on public land constitute an establishment of religion.

          • Amos Moses

            “The Constitution is the highest law in the United States”

            no …. it is not …….. but to you i am sure it is ….

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            OK, you need to live in reality. We are a nation of laws, not religion. If you steal from your neighbor, the courts will use the criminal codes of your state to charge you, and the case will proceed through the secular criminal courts.

            At the top of our network of laws and courts sits the Constitution of the United States. It is the final legal word for our nation. No law in the land can be in opposition to the ideals and words of the Constitution.

            In fact, “I was following God’s laws” isn’t a defense. If a Muslim kills someone for violating Sharia, is he innocent in our system? Or is it just *your* specific view of the Divine that gets enforced?

            If it’s the latter, then you are supporting a theocracy, and I will give my life to stop you.

          • Amos Moses

            ok …. your idolatrous “god” is the law and the “constitution” …. please feel free to worship it at your convenience ……

          • Nick Bush

            The Constitution and the law are proven to exist.

            Get out of my country, theocratic scumbag.

          • Amos Moses

            you pray to a an invisible God called the law …… and that law holds no truth ………

          • Nick Bush

            Confirmed troll. Possible meth addict.

    • Sharon_at_home

      Hi Colin! I have a question for you. In a lot of these kind of situations, you offer the fact that the cross can be on private property and not be a problem.
      Do you think if a whole (small) town that had a cross removed in some way, every single house that had religious people inside put a very visible cross on their front lawns, that the people who said the large cross in the public park offended them would just accept the crosses on private property? Wouldn’t that be much more offensive than the one cross?
      TBH I can’t imagine they would accept that they have the right to be offended without doing something to try to rid the town of all those crosses that offend them. If not right after they put the crosses there, eventually there would be a type of retribution for them? I’m just looking at how it looks like it happens even outside this situation in the states. I am honestly concerned that if people did what you say and put these things on private property there would eventually be someone who couldn’t handle the offense.
      I also wonder if this is what Christians must do to be allowed to show their faith in what amounts to be in public. It might be on private property, but it will be visible to the public. Why would that make people who are offended be any more happy? Obviously this it totally hypothetical. lol!
      Looking forward to your reply, as always.

      • Colin Rafferty

        They would have no problem with private citizens having the crosses.

        The offensive bit isn’t that people are Christian, and demonstrating their Christianity, but that the government is promoting Christianity over all other religions with their cross.

        And you can tell this is true, because (1) every time the FFRF (and other organizations) write about this, this is what they say; and (2) there are no examples of people complaining about private religious displays.

        Ok, I may be stretching the truth on that last one. If someone has a huge billboard on their property calling people sinners for their private lives, that’s pretty offensive. But if almost everyone in town had a giant cross, why should anyone be offended?

        That’s what religious freedom is about. Everyone gets to celebrate their own religious beliefs their own way, and the government stays out of it. And certainly doesn’t choose one religion over all the others.

  • Ambulance Chaser

    “It is the position of the city council that the correspondence forwarded by this organization was deficient in identifying authoritative case law within the Eighth Circuit, and is further of the opinion that, in fact, controlling case law would support the continued presence of the cross within the park,” city council said in a statement.

    Then they should have no trouble citing said case law.

    • Bob Johnson

      well that rules out Oboehner being on the city’s defense team.

      • Ambulance Chaser

        It’s too bad the city council and their attorney just don’t understand law as well as Oboehner.

  • Shane Egan

    Ah yes, the ‘We’ve been discriminating against other beliefs for years and we don’t see why we should stop now’ defense. White Christian privilege rears its ugly head again.

    • Sharon_at_home

      There are more than white’s in the Christian religions now. Now you should call it “Christians privilege” without referring to a race.

      • Shane Egan

        You’re right, my reference was also an reflection of the uneven distribution of positions of power held by white people who are far more likely to be mayors / councilmen than black people.

        • Sharon_at_home

          Personally I just don’t agree with racism whether it’s towards black, or whites, or jews or muslims etc etc.

          There are people of all races in every high position of business today.

          There’s bound to be more whites in positions of power in a country where it is the majority anyway. Especially when it is such a large majority.

          I’m white but I’ll stand up for blacks every time because all my best friends are black, but I will stand against racism every time too.

          Where will racism end if people don’t stop being racist? It won’t be able to end. So try not to be racist and maybe it will make a difference to people being racist towards you.

          Blessings!

          • Shane Egan

            I agree to an extent Sharon but unfortunately even taking into account the relative numbers of various races in the U.S a white person is far more likely to be given preference over a black person even with identical qualifications in things like promotions, bank loans, housing and even being picked up by a taxi.

            I am also white but the psychological testing I have done has shown I have a very small unconscious preference for black people over white. My grandmother was Moari though and my father was quite dark in coloring so that could effect that somewhat.

            Race is irrelevant to me – it is actions that count and I sincerely hope that becomes the norm.

            Religion is somewhat irrelevant to me too as long as people do not try to use their own version of what I consider to be a myth to try to influence acts of government which is the issue in this case. I would have no objections to a public display of Christianity on private land. Public land however should not be used for promoting one religion over another.

          • Sharon_at_home

            I agree but it is changing and it will take a long time before that change really shows in all business’. Blacks have been fighting for their rights for so long, and still don’t have rights equal to whites. It’s not necessarily racism, but I think it’s just a slow change, because the US is more white than anything else.
            My husband experienced racism in the workplace in the opposite way that you mentioned. He had the “right stuff” to be given a promotion but it was given to a black man who had less ability at the same job. It was because Canada has been trying to give minorities more positions in the business world. It was upsetting at the time, but we got over it because we do understand about minorities, but in this case, it was someone with less ability that was put into a position of power instead of the person who was more capable.
            It made us more aware of how the minorities have felt in the same position.
            I’d like to think it will be changed over time. I know it can’t be rushed or the people who are in power now will work harder to stop it, but as the next generations take the helm, there will be less of that (God willing) and more equality across the board. The next generations look at this kind of think as wrong, so it will be changed when they are in charge, don’t you think?
            But as I said, how will we ever stop racism if we don’t stop thinking in terms of ‘white’ and ‘black’? We have to start thinking without the race involved. The more powerful people in the government – rather than the white being pointed out. What ever the actual fact is something people are aware of the reason. I think the only way to combat racism is to not be racist ourselves toward others. That’s going to take a long time too.

            Thanks for the discussion! I appreciate knowing how you feel and why, and do understand it. I also appreciate the kind way you posted to me.
            Have a great day, Shane. I’m sure we’ll discuss things again here.

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    Good! Images of the Cross should not be erased off from the Western Civilization’s land including America because Christianity has been its only good conscience, an ID. The West has no goodness apart from Christianity. Christianity is everything excellent to Europe and to America, the child of the Christian Europe.

    • disqus_BDBCEvISae

      Yet it was Harry Potter who defeated Voldemort. Jesus was nowhere to be found.

      • TheLastHonestLawyer

        It was a couple of hobbits that took down Sauron. Jesus was AWOL!

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        The author is not Christian. Why do you trust Harry Potter? The work itself is evil.

    • Brien

      All peoples and cultures had developed their own morality and mores long before any man-made religions.
      Stop!
      Learn the history of humanity – you are wrong in fact!

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        You are wrong. Here is the summary of mankind. Pre-christian = illiteracy and barbarism. Post-christian = Sodomy and mental illness. Christianity = the truth, light, life. Today’s Ex-christian Sodomic West is the proof. Godless humans hurt not just each other but even children. Mankind need Christianity to value life unconditionally and to have wholesome morality, not only to get saved. That’s why Lord Jesus commanded His followers to evangelize and teach every creature. Matthew 28. Mark 16.

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    Westerners must never hate Christianity as man must never hate his own good conscience or his own good parents. The Westerners who reject Christianity are willfully rejecting every good and right thing on Planet Earth. Sodom is only a heinous culture. Mankind need Christianity for salvation, human rights, and freedom. John chapters 1-8.

    • tatoo

      Actually, westerners can hate Christianity. Why not? Christians have persecuted all others for centuries. They have even persecuted each other.

    • disqus_BDBCEvISae

      “But shouldn’t all of us on earth give the best we have to others and offer whatever is in our power?”
      ― Hans Christian Andersen

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        Ya, the Christian saying.

    • Brien

      An opinion only! Westerners must reject all these fantasy beliefs and progress in their evolving society.
      Goat-herders do not write our future.

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        Westerners are immoral if they are not Christian. You guys need Christianity for sane morality, not just for salvation. Westerners who claim to have the Eastern spirituality do that only to continue immorality in their lives.

  • Lexical Cannibal

    Excellent. Good. I’ll just start drafting my proposal for a monument dedicated to…Baldr seems an appropriate god for a beautiful outdoor space. Yes, a statue of Baldr draped in Mistletoe. Or perhaps just a small shrine to the local landwights with a few godpoles. This park is a public forum for religious monuments now, after all.

    • TheLastHonestLawyer

      Dude, a shrine to Pan. An anatomically correct statue of the satyr-god Pan.

      • Lexical Cannibal

        Psh, not my pantheon. You want a shrine to Pan, go talk to a Hellenist. My crowd’s a little more northernly.

        • TheLastHonestLawyer

          Hey, if I was still religious I’d be asking for a foot bath and a big stone arrow pointing towards the Kaaba.

          • Bob Johnson

            There is a iPhone app that will point you in the right direction.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            Probably a dozen.

            We flew to Istanbul last year – amazing city – but on our Turkish Air flight the flight progress screen showed not on the distance and direction to Istanbul but also the same data from the Kaaba.

  • james blue

    They can now expect applications to place non Christian displays alongside and will lose in court if they refuse.

    • Sisyphus

      A giant bust of Bob Dobbs?

    • Wrong…

      • james blue

        How so?

        Can you point to a court case where the court has ruled it’s okay to have Christian symbols only?

      • TheLastHonestLawyer

        Nope, right on the money.

  • Tianzhu

    “Stand strong.” Indeed. Stand up to bullies and they’ll go away.

    • Colin Rafferty

      The bullies that feel that they should be able to have their particular religion forced on everyone else? Does another religion have an enormous display on public land? Nope, only the one religion that gets special rights.

    • TheLastHonestLawyer

      No, the FFRF will win in court, because this sort of case has been heard over and over and the precedent is that religious displays on public land are unconstitutional.

      • Trilemma

        When was this precedent established concerning crosses on public land?

        • TheLastHonestLawyer

          You can look at County of Allegheny v. American Civil Liberties Union, 492 U.S. 573 (1989), which references Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602 (1971).

          • Trilemma

            Since the cross was built decades before these rulings, why would they be enforced retroactively? Shouldn’t they just prevent the city from spending any money to maintain the cross (which they don’t appear to be doing anyway) or to allow a private entity to do maintenance since they might involve entanglement?

            What about Salazar v. Buono, 559 U.S. 700 (2010) in which the Supreme Court ruled that a cross in the Mojave National Preserve could stay? It seems the Supreme Court gives the cross special treatment.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            Because it is a recent complaint.

            The problem with not maintaining it become liability. A kid breaks his leg playing on it, the owner has kept it up, big payout.

            That’s an interesting case. The Court ruled that the cross could stay up *while* the case was sent back down to the appellate court for further work. I imagine the justices were hoping for a mediated solution as has been seen on other cases.

            However, so after this, the cross was stolen. The case remains in limbo. And since much of the argument in Salazar revolved around the historic value of the cross, any replacement would be viewed differently.

            For the record, I don’t agree with the morons who stole the cross.

          • Trilemma

            I don’t understand why the timing of the complaint matters. If my house was built 5 feet from the property line before there were any setback laws, it shouldn’t matter when my neighbor files a complaint that my house is too close to his because my house is still grandfathered in. Why wouldn’t this cross be grandfathered in since it was built before case law made it illegal?

            I think the historic value of a cross is important. The Neosho cross should have more historic value than the cross in Salazar since the Neosho cross is the original whereas the cross in Salazar had been replaced a number of times, most recently in 1998. Unfortunately, the Supreme Court didn’t really clarify the issue of old crosses on public land.

            If the cross becomes a safety hazard then I think it’s reasonable to remove it or at least put a fence around it. According the Wikipedia article on the Mojave Memorial Cross, the cross was eventually found, over 500 miles away, in Half Moon Bay, California. in early November 2012.

      • Chet

        Precedents can and are broken as required… Besides, the freedom of these folks to recognize the Cross and its value and utmost importance to mankind in general shall not be infringed by bullies and bigmothed haters…

        • TheLastHonestLawyer

          It’s not important to me, or to the people brining suit, or to half the population of the planet?

          Do you consider the Holy Koran to be of the utmost importance to mankind? Yes or no.

          • Chet

            The Cross of Calvary, where the Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the true and living God Almighty willingly suffered, bled and died on behalf of sinners like me and like you is fully foretold and fulfilled in the Book of Books, the Holy Bible… You might checkout the New Testament book of John for starters… There, you’ll truly learn just who is holy and why… Jesus saves from the guttermost to the uttermost, no exclusions, no turn-aways. That is, to all who will but repent and come to Him in faith believing the good news gospel of His deity, His miraculous birth, His sinless life, His substitutionary death on Calvary’s Cross for all us sinners, His burial, His resurrection on the third day, His ascension back to the Father and His soon imminent return for His own…… Hope this helps, Sir…

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            No, it doesn’t. Because you assume that I haven’t read the Bible. I have. In Greek. I’ve studied it, and learned it in comparison with the Koran and the known history of the era.

            I’m 58 years old. Are you really so arrogant as to assume that you are the first person to ever tell me the Bible exists? I married into a Catholic family. I’ve had great religious debates with their priest, a great guy who love theological history as much as I do.

            Have you read the Holy Koran, and leaned that there is no God but God, and Mohammed (PBUH) is His Prophet? How about the Hindu holy books? Or Shinto? Or Buddhism? Have you read up on the Greco-Roman deity Dionysus (also known as Bacchus?) He was born of Zeus and mortal woman, wandered the world healing the sick, raising the dead, and turning water to wine before he was torn to pieces by a mob. He rose from the dead after three days and ascended to Mt. Olympus to sit at his father’s side.

            Sound familiar?

            One of many reasons I am an atheist is that I study history and I study religion.

          • Chet

            No, sorry, Sir, none of that stuff sounds familiar to me. “I am The Way, The Truth and The Life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me” John 14:6, Holy. I am the lord and beside me there is none other… There is, however, one common thread that links all those who claim to be atheists. They have set themselves up as the final authority and thus, god… One can study “religion” all his life and he’ll never attain peace with God via Christ, alone, or have the peace of God. And, he’ll have no joy of sins forgiven(and even forgotten) and surely, no eternal life in the prepared place for prepared people, Heaven, with the Lord of all flesh… Respectfully, reconsider the God-man, the Lord Jesus Christ of Calvary as He is the final authority and answer for all man’s needs… And none other…

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            I feel sorry for you. You are missing some any great works.

            And the story of Dionysus is the same basic story that is told in the Gospels. The writers of the canonical Gospels used the older stories from the mystery cult of Dionysus as the basis for the stories of what Jesus did. Of course, the Dionysian cult was influenced by older religions like the worship of Osiris, another deity who was killed and raised from the dead.

          • Chet

            Thanks, but no sorrow needed or sought any longer, as my sinful heart has been cleansed by the precious blood of the Lord Jesus Christ and all my sins are washed away forever. No longer are my myriad sins of drunkenness, adultery, fornication,covetousness, lying, failure to honor the Lord God Almighty among innumerable others, yet hanging over my head. So, I might have missed some great works but I’m now a child of God via His great grace and mercy (absolutely nothing good on my part). I’m now on my way to Heaven and the journey gets sweeter every day. I gladly stake my eternity on the Word of God and the cleansing blood of the Christ of Calvary. Besides Him, there is none other anywhere who can afford such to the sinner-man… Thanks for the opportunity to share the good news gospel – Jesus saves!

          • Brien

            Oh right…’Sin’ – another man made concept to control and to justify arbitrary punishment.
            You really want to stay stupid – why??
            Try using your evolved intelligence, but then you probably don’t understand evolution – fairy tales are so much easier….

          • Chet

            Sin, is that which rules the hearts of each and every man who knows not the Lord Jesus Christ of Calvary, nor learned yet of Him. All men are sinners by nature and practice as each does according to the dictates of his own heart. There’s no denying it. And sin pays wages, and the wage is death, physically and spiritually. As in Adam, all die. Can a sane man deny this?ogether

            Believe me, my intelligence has truly evolved, but not likened to that coming from an ape as you infer. The terrible bottom line with your apparent decision is that if you are indeed wrong, and the Word of God, the Holy Bible, is exactly as written and historically preserved, at the point of death, it will be woefully too late. For the man who departs this life without Christ will instantly enter the madhouse of humanity. This place will be one in which the damned scream blood curdling sounds round the clock, nonstop, day in and day out as they are tormented in the flames and engulfed in outer darkness, with out hope, and without God. And along wit their eternal torment will be their conscience reminding them that they could easily have avoided such place, but, alas, thy would not.

            Creator God Almighty loves all us sinners and He has made it altogether possible for each man to obtain great mercy and grace, all at the expense of His only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ who willingly gave His life for each of us on Calvary’s Cross, was buried, arose on the third day, and lives forever… Why would any sane man, via evolved thinking/education and faith, elect to die and enter the awful place known as Hell when Christ, alone, has provide the sole means of escape via repentance and faith in Him… Choose wisely, Sir, there’s no second chance…

          • peanut butter

            He’s atheist, don’t let him run you around in circles. He just comes on here to spew his hatred of the Savior. If you don’t respond to him, he won’t have a platform to spew. By spewing hatred, he might sway those who do not have a full testimony knowledge of Christ.

          • Chet

            While I agree, to a degree, the Devil and his own will never overshadow the redeemed of the Lord, indwelt and led of His Holy Spirit. Remember, while most of us were perhaps never atheists, we were all indeed lost sinners. And this message board may very well be the one and only good news message (Jesus saves) those monitoring this board will ever see. Most will not darken the door of a real Holy Bible preaching and teaching church, nor read God’s Word for themselves (John) or give time to true Holy Bible preaching and teaching ministers on radio and TV. Thus, we who are among the blood washed redeemed need to try and reach the innumerable lost wherever and however possible. But, that’s my view. God bless…

          • Boommach

            Even your nom de guerre is a lie.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            It’s nom de plume as we are writing. And do you have anything to back up that personal attack?

          • Boommach

            Sorry to confuse you so. That wasn’t my intent. Even your nom de plume is a lie.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            Let’s unpack this. You use an incorrect term in an effort to look smart. I correct you. How does that make me confused? I’m the one who knew the difference in the first place.

            Now, please tell me the history of how I came to be known as The Last Honest Lawyer. Let’s start with the name of the first person to call me that, and the context in which the name was applied.

    • tatoo

      No they won’t. They usually win.

  • Jason Todd

    So I see the anti-Christian bigots are at it again. I wonder what it would take to have a class action lawsuit filed against them?

    • JustNTyme

      Pity them, they are unhappy people.

      • DoorknobHead

        WELCOME TO HAPPINESS U
        Your statement is not completely concordant with reality. Happiness has been found to occur in a U shaped pattern if plotted on a chart, not linear like many theists are taught is the case. It is those that have robust beliefs that are the happiest; not necessarily positively correlating to religiosity. The most robust atheists tend towards being more happy just as the most robust theists tend towards happiness. It is those that are in the undecided and conflicted middle that tend towards unhappiness. Many theists start looking in the middle, then up at the theists and ignore the data that conflicts with their worldview.

        • JustNTyme

          Go eat lard.

          • DoorknobHead

            TYPICAL A. TYPICAL B.
            Gosh, that sounds like a typical theistic non-response. Let me give a somewhat typical atheist or secular response to respond “in kind”, From Paul G 2009 The chronic dependence of popular religiosity upon
            dysfunction psychosological conditions Evol Pschl 7:398 – 441
            > Chart: Belief in God highly correlated with social dysfunction in 17 first world countries
            > Absolutely believe in god vas Successful Society scale
            > Chart: Happiness vs Religiosity (Pearson Correlation” -0.52 Religiosity versus Happiness Score

            or if you prefer videos…

            YouTube video:
            Jerry Coyne – 2016 National Convention
            > 13:57 Chart: Belief in God versus Acceptance of Evolution
            > 20:18 Chart: Belief in God highly correlated with social dysfunction is 17 first world countries
            > 20:26 Chart: Absolute belief in god vs Successful Society scale from Paul G. 2009 “The chronic dependence of popular religiosity upon dysfunction psychosociological conditions” Evol Psycho 7: 398-441.
            > 23:22 Chart: Happiness vs Religiosity (Pearson Correlation -0.52)
            > 37:04 Graphic: The Phylogeny of World Religions

            …and then explore the world from there. Your welcome.

        • Bob Johnson

          “tends toward”

          Spoken like a true ™ scientist.

    • DoorknobHead

      SECULARISTS AND HUMANISTS JUST GOT ‘FRAMED’
      > “Bigots” is a mighty strong word and mis-characterizes and mis-frames the motivations of many people that believe and can show secular society is superior to sectarian societies. Secularists, humanists, atheists, etc., are not necessarily intolerance of Christians, per se, but are against actions taken by government, often through religious adherents (usually Christians in the US), that promotes the beliefs of some at the expense of other individual citizens that compose different sectors within “We the people”. One definition of bigotry is intolerance towards people holding different opinions, and this just often isn’t the case with most secularists, and framing everyone this way is less than perfectly truthful. Yet, when the religious take pernicious steps to mitigate secularism within a secular government — the reason for religious freedom for everyone, and not just a few — then the secularists must step in to stop the sectarians from unwittingly making it worse for everyone — including the sectarians. It’s about ideas, not people.

      THE THOUGHT POLICE NEEDED TO SUPPORT CHRISTIAN-SHARIA LAWS
      > What would it take to have a class action lawsuit filed [that sticks] against atheists, secularists, and humanists that offend the religious just by their mere existence, willingness and ability to express themselves with their Constitutionally guaranteed right of freedom of speech? Answer: A theocracy, with bands of thought police, and a sectarian instead of secular government — a government that may eventually advance to a state where ‘throwing people off roofs’ for believing differently or being born different is allowed.

      • Coach

        You may hate God, but you will stand before Him on judgement day and give an account for how you’ve blasphemed His name. Your secular humanism won’t save you from the wrath to come, you must repent, forsake the lies you adhere to and believe on Jesus Christ alone, He’s the only Mediator between God and man.
        Willful ignorance will not excuse you on that day, it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

        • DoorknobHead

          HATING SOMETHING OF NO CONSEQUENCE? HOW?
          > Saying I hate god, something that I lack a belief in, is also a case of poor “framing” of a position — I don’t spend my time hating that which I do not believe exists because there is zero sound evidence for it.

          BILLIONS AND BILLIONS
          > I understand you really really really believe there is a god, and without a doubt in an eternal punishment in an afterlife for those that are not adequately punished in the mundane pre-life because they do not believe things on faith — or due to lack of evidence, but I really really really don’t believe in the existence of anything supernatural, including gods, because I have studied the supernatural and world religions enough to know that believers or adherents are usually victims of a con. I’m sorry, not angry. Other people really really really believe in different gods and that different stories are literally true — that is what fascinates me: how, even if one god does exist (they don’t), then how is it that billions and billions of other people are wrong. The mind is a fascinating and easily manipulated thing, even if your god, and all the stories you have been taught to believe are true.

          THERE’S NO PLACE LIKE HOME
          > Pretending things exist, when they don’t exist will not make them true, no matter how tightly you clench your fists, shut your eyes, tap your bejeweled heels together and say things in your head that only you can hear. I believe you and I and all people shall die and stop existing, which is the only prudent thing to believe when properly considering the proper facts and since this is the one life we shall most likely have, we should all strive to make the best of what we have now and look towards the future for future generations.
          PEACE

          • Sharon_at_home

            No, we don’t need proof because of our faith, but we are given proof continuously by the Lord in ways that non-believers can’t see. Because you need proof positive – as in only if you see it – then you can’t understand how we stand by our faith without “seeing” it. We see God’s hands in our lives – but obviously because of disbelief, you and others will never be able to understand, so you have to insist that we have been conned, rather than accept that you disagree and you know what? Others are not all conned by others, but have experienced God in ways you have not. Unbelief makes the things of God impossible to recognize. That is why with all your travels and research you – yourself and other unbelievers – cannot ‘see’ what we see.
            It’s too bad you can’t truly open your mind to God, but He always said there would be unbelievers every where. Maybe if you are blessed, God will open your eyes by doing something in your life that you cannot find an explanation for. That is how my eyes were opened. I pray that you too will be saved by the mercy and grace that God gives all of us.

          • DoorknobHead

            Good response. Thank you.
            CONFIRMATION BIAS
            > “Seeing god’s hands in our lives” is better explained as human “confirmation bias”.” Seeing god in everyday life is a response that 20% of believers will give as their most persuasive. Higher than this as a primary response is good design / natural beauty / perfection /complexity of the world or universe at almost 30%, also known as the god of the gaps fallacy. So pretty good standard answer. I think I like your confirmation bias answer better than the god of the gaps answer.

            CRITICAL THINKING, ENGAGED
            > “…because of disbelief, you and others will never be able to understand…” is often better explained by the non religious thinking critically (thinking about thinking to improve thinking) and an understanding of human biases and countermeasures to human biases. The easiest person to fool is yourself. Critical thinking is how ex-clergy come out of religion, after believing and preaching very strongly for, say, thirty years, while having the very same experiences that you just described. They then gradually come to realize while they try to justify their beliefs and answer troubling questions they have been presented about their faith that they were just thought to think poorly. The delusional do see what others can not see, sure.

            I BURN, SO THAT YOU DON’T HAVE TO — YOU’RE WELCOME
            > There are no good reasons to conclude any god exists, especially the biblical version of god if the bible is considered inerrant (inerrancy is beyond absurd): there has never been any sound evidence for any god in the history of history, almost as if, or rather exactly as if, he was not there at all, so I won’t be holding my breath thinking he will be opening my eyes anytime soon — you’ll just have to believe that I, and most people on the planet who ever existed or will ever exist, will be burned and tortured forever in the fires of hell for an infinite amount of time for the finite crime of not believing because he apparently does not have enough power to provide others and I with sound evidence. Instead people have to believe upon faith (belief without sound evidence) and on other factors easily and scientifically explained as confirmation bias or other human biases that religious leaders encourage their adherent to be conned by, instead of providing counter measures against unreliable ways of thinking. If god does exist (he does not) maybe god needs most people in hell to burn forever to heat heaven? On the other hand, I can rest easily knowing that at some time you and I will completely cease to exist and have the same ultimate peace as we had before we existed. PEACE

          • Sharon_at_home

            “Seeing god’s hands in our lives”

            I did not mean in any of those manners. You are again talking about seeing something to believe in it. “Nature, good design / complexity of the world or universe”, are things I see as God’s hand, but that is not what I was talking about. It’s a knowledge that is given to us to give us proof of the Lord’s existence.

            You can’t understand it because you don’t believe, and you NEED to find a reason outside of allowing for God to exist. If you look for a reason then you will be likely to find one that fits your unbelief – just as you insist that is what believers do.

            I know what happened in my life that can’t be explained by anything anyone can come up with. You don’t. You have never lived in my body, etc. and you can not know what has made me believe, because you want to believe that I am ‘delusional’ and therefore I am. If I have been conned, it was by God, not man. I guess you don’t have the capacity to see what we see. You have been made blind to it by your disbelief, so you cannot see it.

            I am not saying you don’t have the right to have your belief, I just say you should not demean someone who does have the faith just because of your lack of experience in having God do things for you in your life that you recognize as from God.

            Believe what you believe all you want, but don’t be so arrogant to speak as if you are so perfect that you have to be right. You don’t have to be right, and to those of us in faith you couldn’t be more wrong.

            “you’ll just have to believe that I, and most people on the planet who ever existed or will ever exist, will be burned and tortured forever in the fires of hell for an infinite amount of time for the finite crime of not believing”
            Sorry I don’t look at it that way. I am not supposed to decide anything like that – God is the only one that sees a person’s heart and can decide who is going to be punished for the sins they have done in their lifetime.

            All I can do is speak of Jesus’ love the way I believe, to teach people about the plan of Salvation and tell them that that Salvation is dependent on realizing their sins and repenting for them.
            I don’t ever say you will go to hell to anyone. If they ask a specific question and that is the answer I would say the person that did that sin would have to deal with God not with me. I have no authority to say that anyone is going to hell. I can say what God said about it, but I can’t say that any one person will end up in Hell, because I can’t see what God sees in each of us. That’s what my belief is anyway. I am not a typical Christian.

            “The easiest person to fool is yourself.” And both of us feel that way about each other, and neither of us can prove to each other that we are right and they are wrong. There is no way to prove it whether you have statistics and research all about it, you can’t allow for all humans to react the same way and you can’t survey each and every Christian to prove what you are saying. You were looking to disprove the existence of God and the proof you needed was easily found because you were looking for it. You fooled yourself just as you insist we fool ourselves.

            Since you can’t prove your finding are universal to all Christians, you are just as wrong as we are – or just as right as we are. Neither side wins when there is no proof that the other side will accept as truth. Both of us insisting that we are right is futile.

            This is one of those times when we have to agree to disagree.

            But I don’t need to demean you to make a point about this.

            Have a great life in your disbelief, and I will with my belief.

          • DoorknobHead

            First, I thank you very much for your effort in your response.
            > “I didn’t mean…” I was talking about how other theists often respond when discussing nature and good design as an argument; you related the second most popular response, “god is seen everywhere”. These are not my claims, these are theistic claims. There are general patterns in how people tend to justify their god beliefs.

            > Good point. I also suffer from confirmation bias, and must try and guard against it as much as I am humanly possible. It is difficult, especially in the internet age. One way to avoid confirmation bias is to not limit oneself to a single source of information as being the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Seeking other views having your viewed challenges is preferable when seeking the truth.

            > I think I do, or at least did, have the capacity to see what you see, even though I don’t, as much, currently, as I am also a human being with the same evolutionary background and can also make mistakes in interpreting reality. Survival of the individual and the tribe does not depend upon interpreting reality correctly, only in interpreting reality in a matter that increases the chance of survival, and a religious mindset can surely do this. I just consider myself fortunate, as you probably should think you are lucky to have been born in the correct religion out of the tens of thousands of religions that have ever existed.

            > I don’t really set out to demean the person, but that does not mean I am not willing to challenge their ideas. I highly suspect there is a high probably you are a really good person, just with some incorrect ideas (as might I; a reason to speak with others of different views). Freedom of speech means that we should have the opportunity to challenge each other’s ideas, even as we risk offending each other, so that we both may learn from the exchange, that the best ideas may survive, and that we both may be benefited as a result. ‘merica.

            > Oh, I am not perfect, for sure. I am just an average guy exploring the world. Many times I will make mistakes. But I strive to believe as many true things as possible, and as few untrue things as possible. I don’t claim to have all the answers, even though I may fight for my position vehemently from time to time. Isn’t it more arrogant to claim a person has the answer, when faith is their guide. Faith is also how people from other religions come to their conclusions — how is this reliable? Isn’t it better to suspend belief until a consiience of sound evidence supports such belief? One of my catch phrases is “The more I know, the more I know how little I know.” Willful obeisant to the best arguments and facts is a reason for the moniker “DoorknobHead”.

            > The religious salvation mythos has many interpretations, by adherents, social anthropologists, and those that study historical religious motivations for the salvation myths found in many religions. Often it starts as a stress relief-valve for people under terrible oppression, repression and tyranny that only have a chance of a terrible life, in their one and only life, and this salvation promise of a good mythical after-life later, and punishment for those so terrible to them, is a comfort that they would not otherwise have.

            > I like your view on not telling people they will go to hell and that is good to hear. Yet you worship a god that may send people to hell for an infinite amount of time for finite crimes, which is not a proportional punishment. It is truly a best practice to not assume what another person believes (as I did), especially with religion when the versions of belief can be as varied as the number of people in the house of worship. I guess putting it in gods hands is a way to wash the hands of what a god will do to people that might, in life, be very helpful, friendly, kind, nice, generous, courteous, etcetera but, for whatever reason, just did not grow up to believe in a version of a god. Either way, it may be very good indeed that you do not claim to be a typical Christian, but that isn’t really a ringing endorsement for Christianity.

            > “And both of us feel that way about each other, and neither of us can prove to each other that we are right and they are wrong.” Well said and I would tend to completely agree, and this is the part that is so very fascinating to me. Billions of other people of different religions, no religions, or political belief, etc, are in the same boat. Especially in the internet age when misinformation and “alternate facts” are so prevalent. How do we best determine what is correct from what is incorrect? What methods have proven to be the best in determining fact from fiction. The scientific method has been the most reliable method of humankind to be predictive of reality so far, religions of all sort, have not. Science is working on how the human mind develops beliefs, both correct and incorrect, and with new tools, such as functional MRI’s, they are learning more about how beliefs emerge within particular areas of the human brain. This information should help future generations do better at determining what is true, and why we make mistakes in interpreting reality. Also, It is generally not considered possible to prove a cosmos-large negative (the whole
            cosmos, and ‘supernatural’ realm would have to be searched
            simultaneously to prove a god does NOT exist, so that isn’t going to
            ever happen). So yes, this argument will remain if the “you can’t prove a god does not exist” remains on the religious table for argumentation. I don’t think you understand what constitutes sound and useful proof when you apply it to the god question. This may be what they call special pleading on your part, as you have been taught to do.

            > I would disagree that a person that suspends belief until there is sufficient evidence is just as wrong as a person that maintains a belief based upon faith, at least as far as the best methods are concerned.

            > I agree to disagree, but not that it is best that ideas should remain unchallenged. I didn’t feel demeaned in the slightest. You did very well. Very nice and pleasant exchange. Thank you for that.

            PEACE

          • Sharon_at_home

            Thank you as well for the discussion.
            You see, the only reason I can’t give you proof is because it’s not something you can see – I’ll explain it in a nutshell. I live in Canada. I have not been rained on in almost 2 years even on rainy days. You’ll think I’m delusional, but I have shown other people that it has happened. They get to see one time, but my husband and I have seen it many many more. He gets rained on when he goes out alone, but not when I go. I did not pray for it, my husband and I just talked about how neat it would be if God did stop the rain from falling on me one time (it was in a song), and after a while I realized what was happening and it has continued. No one can tell me why or how it is happening, but it is.

            But when I’ve presented this to various atheists, they still insist it can’t be God blessing me. They tell me 1. I’m lying. 2. I’m crazy. 3. There is no reasonable explanation, but it is not God.
            And that is only one thing that God has shown himself to me in my life.
            If you can tell me how it happened I’d be amazed. One of the times that it was raining; it was raining on our side of the apartment building; when we got to the entrance it had stopped. We walked to the bus stop, waited at least 3-5 min. got on the bus, were talking to the bus driver, and the rain came down so hard it surprised most of us on the bus at it’s fierceness and the suddenness of it. It rained hard while we rode the bus but when we came to our stop, it stopped again. We walked to our church without it raining.
            So go ahead, tell me I’m imagining it/ I’m crazy / whatever you want. I know it is happening. I have not needed a raincoat for 2 years I think. I don’t know when it started by date. You are an unbeliever so you won’t believe and you will not accept that it happened. I already know that. So, yeah, I have very personal reason(s) for my belief in God.
            BTW I didn’t start going to church until I was 52 and I knew only about the birth of Jesus, not of His Salvation before that. I went because some friends asked me to. I had done some things for them that they had talked about at the church and some of the members wanted to meet me. I expected it to be a one time visit. My husband came only to support me as he hated churches because of his R.C. childhood. I felt like it was home and never turned back. He’s with me every week and has realized that this church is totally different than those of his youth. I’ve had other experiences that the only explanation is God, but you won’t believe those either. lol!
            I do appreciate that you try to help me see your understanding, and I hope my testimony will give you just a second of pause, but I don’t expect it.
            If you know the bible, you know that Jesus wants us to shine our light so we can be recognized as His children, and it will give Glory to God. I try to be a beacon by my behaviour. No one can convince me there isn’t a God because I’m not crazy and I did experience His Hand in My Personal Life. I admit those other things are things I also believe that God created. (Nature etc. )
            Because I know He is alive in my heart and in my life.
            Blessings! Take care!

          • DoorknobHead

            MOMENTS LIKE THESE MAKE LIFE EXTRA AMAZING

            > Thanx for relating your story. It is not unreasonable to believe your story as related is indeed true and that the events happened as described. It is not an extraordinary claim, though. People, every day, get rained upon while others do not. In that it happened for two years straight might be rare or improbable, but not impossible as improbable things happen to people all the time. I think your interpretation and assignment of cause is not appropriate, even though it really does give you a truly real, visceral and I imagine a tremendously amazing and inspiring feeling. Because you have a particular god in mind, you tend to assign causes to that particular god. People of other religions experience similar rare and improbable events and assign their particular god as the cause for their similarly rare and improbable experiences. Many claims like these don’t hold up as being as improbable as a person might think when all individuals are considered under careful scrutiny with all factors taken into account. Now, if every time you walked into a full on rain storm, and the rain did not fall on you while everyone outside your two foot personal space radius got deluged full force, even when you tried to ‘trick’ the rain and dodge into it, that would be an extraordinary claim.

            THE HIGH PROBABILITY OF THE IMPROBABLE
            > I also have a story or two that were amazing and gave me amazing visceral feelings. For example, I once drove too fast around a ten mile per hour corner, and bumped into a woman’s stacked-post fence and knocked it over on a hard to access country lane I had never been on before, 20 miles away from my parent’s home. As a young driver, I had never encountered a ten mile per hour corner before. After I knocked over the fence the neighbors came out from three directions literally with bats and other “torches and pitchforks” type paraphernalia as this sort of thing happened enough that they were tired of it. There were some other amazing details I won’t relate, but the most amazing to me happened the next day when I went to apologize to the woman, and to offer to pay for any damages (I had not seen her the previous day). This next day was the same day of my high school senior all night party that I had to leave two hours early because I had to leave for Marine Corps boot camp. When talking to the lady, she was very friendly and sweet and we talked for a long time, and it was wonderful and felt magical. She said her fence got knocked over now and again and the posts just needed re-stacked, but this was already done. While we talked, we discovered that I had, seven to ten years earlier, bandaged her arm when she fell off a ladder in my father’s peach-orchard. No one else had ever been injured in my father’s U-pick fruit farm except this woman. This amazing coincidence, the senior all night party, and being in boot camp several hours later could easily be described as amazing and evoked wonderful, visceral and dare I say, spiritual feelings. If I had a god on my mind, I could have easily contributed that amazing few days as being caused by whatever god was on my mind and I might have assigned a reason for it happening.

            OH, OH, RAIN! RAIN RAIN, GO AWAY. HEY! YOU DID!

            > Funny enough, I also have a rain story, but not as amazing as yours. I was riding a motorcycle across the prairie (the only time I’ve done this) with beautiful intermittent clouds, and the dark rain of heavy squall beneath many of them in one of the most amazing and inspiring demonstrations of nature I had ever seen. I thought for sure I’d have to stop and maybe take shelter, and could even see squalls on both sides of the road, but they all missed me and the road wasn’t even wet at any point, as if the clouds stopped raining when they got to the road and then resumed on the other side — wet roads would have got my legs wet. I have other stories like these, but these two are the most viscerally memorable. Atheists also enjoy the improbable.

          • Sharon_at_home

            There are coincidences that happen like yours frequently in everyone’s life time. I think it is often said that it is the 6 degrees of separation.
            There is no obvious coincidence in what I experienced. It was eventually made too obvious by how it happened over and over. I can’t imagine there is another reason why it is happening, but I’m open to suggestions.
            I believe that it is an act of God. Nothing I know about the way these things happen is able to be applied to it. TBH I haven’t research it because I believe it is God. So now I tried ‘people who don’t get rained on’ and there were no matches. I also tried ‘Can the rain stop and start to avoid a person getting wet?’ Again I had no matches. I’m sure there are better ways of googling it, but I am a simple person that has never been interested in the greater reasons that things happen in the world. I am happy just to be alive and be able to see the beauty of nature. I was able to grow more when I had my children by seeing the world from a child’s view too, but that isn’t as complicated as knowing the hows and whys things happen. I’ve been opening up to more since I’ve been posting here, but I do not go into a deep research for the things I need to know about. I have learned to try to look for other articles about the same things, but I am not confident in knowing what is a good site, and what isn’t. Thankfully there are people here who have reached out to me to help me to understand some things when I ask for help. They have all been so kind to help me, and I have grown immensely in knowledgeable from their kindness.
            I’ve asked a couple of times that if someone can give me a reasonable explanation to my situation, I would be more than willing to hear it and consider it. So far the unbelievers are the only ones that reply and most of them are more of a put down, than any suggestions, or reasons that they believe it was not possible, rather than something that would make sense of it.
            I do appreciate that others don’t believe as I do. I can’t know their experiences that made them who they are, just as people don’t know my experiences unless I tell them. I don’t think I’ve ever pushed my religion on anyone in a rude way. I try to treat people the way I want to be treated and that is all I do when I try to help people understand what I am trying to get across, but if they decide they don’t want to hear it, I don’t keep going on an on. I move on and hope I can reach someone who is open to what I say. For me, it’s about reflecting the way Jesus wanted us to behave in such a way that it attracts people to Him because of how I am.
            To me, it is totally up to you what you are able to believe, or not believe. I just ask for the same respect to be given to me when we discuss our different views. I appreciate a good discussion without the name calling etc. that some seem to think will make their belief spread to others.
            As our discussion has been. I do thank you for the kindness in your replies. And I offer the fact that I believe God did it, and have nothing against your belief that there is another explanation. To me, that is what makes a good discussion.
            Take care of yourself, and I’m sure we’ll have more to talk about with other articles.

          • DoorknobHead

            > A beautiful and generous response. I am very impressed and glad that you tried to do a search for other explanations, and yet I am sad you didn’t find any results, but that is completely understandable. Research can sometimes be tedious and difficult, especially with such an esoteric case, and it can be difficult to enter a phrase that gives the answers for which one is curious about. You engaged in one of the first steps in critical thinking: to [continually] question the reliability of your sources of information. I can only encourage you to do the same when other questions come up, it does not have to be about religion, and hopeful you might learn about new and exciting things that brings you joy and a desire to continue to learn about new things, new perspectives, or worldviews. I personally like to keep notes about new things I’ve learned on my computer, for future reference, for things fascinating to me. Previously I’ve encountered articles about how pattern seeking humans misread rare and improbable events and assign them causality, but have not recorded the sources. Now, thanks to you, that is an interest in me and I may record information about that subject as I come across them again. I did do a search for “why people believe rare events are proof of god” in google scholar, but I’ll just go ahead and let you do whatever searches make you comfortable.

            > I like to interact in this medium, in that it often prompts me to do mini-research about new subjects, topics, or claims that I have not yet explored or I find I am suddenly curious about or if people have diametrically opposed opinions, and I don’t know how much both sides are correct or incorrect (there is often truth and falsity to be found on both sides, especially if both sides are extreme opposites). Sometimes Wikipedia searches are good enough, and sometimes I peruse responses using “Google Scholar” where scientific peer reviewed papers, or articles about studies (often written for the general public) or books can be found. Often times looking at just the abstracts or summaries of several scientific papers, or meta studies (studies about all the recent studies of a particular subject) can really help clarify fact from fiction. Sometimes, if the subject is fascinating enough, I like to read the whole study. Yet this is a me-thing as learning is one of my top five characteristics (I was surveyed by Gallop at my company): “ALICA”: Achievement, *Learning*, Input, Consistency, Adaptability (I can’t remember if adaptability is the last one in my list of five. That may just be one of the Marine Corps principles that my mind inserted there instead).
            > I like your attitude that it is up to other people what they believe, and I think many secularists, atheists, and humanists are in the same boat. Many do not mind what others believe, or if others are religious, as long as they don’t infringe on the rights of others or infringe on free speech, or education through government. I think many of us, on both sides, want what is best for everyone, and to live equitably and as harmoniously as possible in a manner where everyone has a chance.
            Take care.

          • Sharon_at_home

            WOW!! I don’t mean this offensively, but boy you are a Nerd aren’t you!! LOL The reason I even mention it is because I have 3 sons, and they are all gifted and are Nerds too.
            So is my husband. I’ve been outnumbered by males all my life, and most of those were nerds too. I honestly mean that term with affection. It was fascinating to watch my sons grow up. Like a flower blooming at times.
            This, on the other hand is like me. I love google! lol
            “> I like to interact in this medium, in that it often prompts me to
            do mini-research about new subjects, topics, or claims that I have not
            yet explored or I find I am suddenly curious about…”
            Part of the reason I’m what I called a different kind of Christian is because of the way my Pastor taught me by telling me right from the beginning that we don’t insist you learn our beliefs and that’s it, but rather he told me to learn their beliefs and take what I want to believe out of what I learn.

            I’ve learned a lot but I know it will take a lifetime to read the bible with real understanding in all of it.

            I have always lived by the golden rule. I can’t remember a time that I haven’t. I think it’s from being the youngest of 5 lol!

            I’ve always been accepting of other people, probably because my family traveled every summer for 2 weeks, a carefully planned trip each year, to see the historical sites and the other various land marks around the US. While we were traveling, we camped so and we were social so we met a lot of different kinds of people and to be honest, I did not know what racism was. It had never entered into my life until I was an adult working. I could never understand it, but I did learn about it. Camping has a relaxed atmosphere too. From when I was 5 to 14, and my mother took us to a camp ground for the month of August each year. I can’t help be feel everyone is equal with that view of the world.

            I appreciate the discussion DoorKnobHead. Have a Great Whatever (day/night) lol

          • DoorknobHead

            WOW!!! I don’t mean this offensively, but you sound like a pretty well rounded person with some great life experiences. I don’t know if I am a nerd, or a wanna be nerd, but either way I’m taking your comment as a compliment (a nerd with a Harley, etc, etc.) I do enjoy working with engineers as a technician, though. In middle and high school I remember enjoying both the nerd group and the jock group equally, so I think I’m at best maybe an in-between-er.
            > I’m not saying this is the case with your Pastor, but hearing you describe your pastor it made me think of the many good religions leaders that have sought to study their religion and is origins more closely and find themselves in the agnostic, atheist camp. Many find they can’t leave church life because it is all they know and is the only money making skill they’ve acquired. They are so tied to the church community they and their family could suffer heavily if they leave (at least in more fundamental areas — which does not sound like the case here). Also, if they remain in the clergy, they can continue to have a positive impact on their community. Some can’t stand living a lie all the time, though, and for them exists the Clergy Project (website), where atheist active-religious-leaders can confidentially talk with other Clergy who have also studied their way out of religion and can discuss either exit or coping strategies — but that is kind of a big aside, isn’t it.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Actually, my Pastor told me that because he knows that some things are harder for people to understand and accept. He wants people to make their own mind up about what our church believes, and what we want to follow. It’s a belief that God will be enough in our lives that we look at His Word and weigh what is within our belief abilities (?). We believe that believing in God is a personal relationship, and therefore each person needs to make decisions for themselves. I’ve never found another religion that is like that. Most pressure you about their beliefs and that you “must” believe this because we say you must. Some even threaten our salvation if we don’t toe the line, so to speak.

            My Pastor is definitely not changing from his belief. He’s not just my Pastor, he’s a friend from before I came to the church. He’s well respected in our religious circle, and is invited to speak at churches constantly because of his way of presenting the things of God he talks about. He’s actually just been elected as a Bishop and will have a ceremony about it this summer.

            He was an Accountant before he began our church, and has even kept a few clients from those days. He started the church over 20 years ago, and you can see the way he feels when he speaks. I guess you could say that he has trouble hiding it, unlike others I’ve heard that sound like they are talking about something they don’t really believe within themselves.

            I don’t believe I would have continued with my church if it had tried to force things on me. I didn’t like the other ones I’d tried because of the attitude they expressed at the time.

            Our Pastor’s family are happy and involved in the church. Even their 2 kids are active in various ways in the church and are not hesitant to express their views just like their father and mother do. With one nearing 18 it is the time that young people start making their own decisions about what they believe, rather than just accepting what others do. It is obvious by their behaviour that they truly believe. Of course you would say that is expected by children of a Church leader, but I can see the honesty they show when they are involved in anything there. I can’t see into the future, obviously, but by appearance it looks like they will continue in their belief because they want to. They have been brought up to be good people that treats others with love and kindness. I think that’s a plus about the church’s beliefs

            Our belief is actually in how people behave and it is has the kind of behaviour that we were taught as children. Except we are taught that Jesus wants us to love each other – if we love each other, we will not intentionally hurt anyone. It is with Love that Jesus came to earth to tell us about His salvation plan. It is with love that he taught us to show our light in the world. If everyone believed that we should love our neighbour as ourselves, the problems would be so much different than they are. Because God gave us free will, people don’t always act with good intentions. He gave us the free will to decide for ourselves if we believe in Him as our creator and to accept His offer of Salvation by repentance of our sins. That’s why there are believers and unbelievers.

            The more people treat each other with love and concern, the more people will in turn treat other people better. It’s human nature and I have proven it many times just by being myself and my actions can change the way someone speaks to me.

            “you sound like a pretty well rounded person with some great life experiences”
            What a great compliment, Thank you!

            You sound like a very kind person with strong beliefs (as I have too, just differently) and a strong need to tell people about what you feel casts doubt on their views. I believe you are doing it as more of a kind gesture, rather than being a bully about it. I cannot help but applaud your actions, even if I don’t agree with your views. It is a way you are trying to help people and there is nothing that shows that you care like helping someone.

            I do think you sound a lot like some of my son’s friends and actually, my youngest son is becoming a Sports Agent as a career. So being a sporty nerd is acceptable and is still a nerd because of the intelligence that is shown when you reach out to people about what you think.

            My other sons are both working from home and are making a place for themselves in the world. They are each going up in the company as time goes by.

            I guess you can tell I’m proud of my three sons. lol!
            So, we agree that we are both nice people who enjoy a good discussion, right?

            You take care of yourself and Keep Smiling.

          • Shane Egan

            Sharon, why not subject your ‘rain-proof miracle’ to an actual scientific test and show the world it is true? I bet you come up with an excuse why you can’t but doesn’t that mean you really don’t believe it is true.

          • Sharon_at_home

            How would I do that? I have no idea how I would do that. Would they be able to do it on past experiences?
            I’d love to prove to the world that God exists, but I have always had such a negative response from non-believers Shane, I wouldn’t expect anything to really come of it just because of that.
            I’d have no concept of how to go about it.
            Thanks for the idea though. It would be interesting to see how it would be handled. Intriguing….

          • Bob Johnson

            Probability. Study probability theory and then read up on Roy Cleveland Sullivan.

          • Sharon_at_home

            O dear. I’m not a nerd like the rest of my family, sorry. I have no clue about that kind of thing.
            My thing is my personal relationship with God, my family, my church, my friends. I enjoy helping people but I’m not into mental exercises.
            I’ll see if my husband is interested in what you gave to me. He might be.
            Honestly I’m a simple woman and prefer to stay that way at this point of my life.
            I am serious about my religion and have to learn about it and that is the first time I’ve studied anything since 1975. I was a mom, a babysitter, an assistant at my kids schools, nothing heavy for those things. I’ve been on the computer since 1983 when there wasn’t really an internet and learned about it while it grew. I love to learn, but I guess I’m more into some trivia in some cases.
            I do appreciate your idea, it’s just not something I’m up to doing at this point. I wouldn’t want to do a half a$$’d job and end up being called a fake because I screwed up the way to do it either.
            If someone else wanted to, I can give whatever information necessary for it gladly.
            I have no problem looking for another reason because I know it is God. So please look into it, and maybe we’ll finally have some proof that someone will accept.
            Thanks Bob. I appreciate your encouragement to attempt something I know is way beyond me though.
            Blessings! Keep smiling!

          • Bob Johnson

            Actually, somewhere on the internet I saw a very good video on the problem of large numbers. It will take me a little while to find it, but when I do I’ll send you another post. Until then it is bedtime for me.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Thank you Bob. I’ll be sure to look for it and to watch it. Blessings!

          • Brien

            There you go — your inability to understand science is no excuse to continue believing in fantasies!
            At least in science we can show proof and evidence when we make claims of truth; you do not because you cannot….
            Simple enough now??

          • Sharon_at_home

            You see you think we have no proof because we cannot show it to you. I have as much proof and any scientist that won’t accept my word, are obviously blind to what science is supposed to do. When they cannot see a reason for something, and don’t want to give God the credit, why don’t they find out the actual reason if there is another one.
            Besides if you had read the whole discussion you would know why I accept that there is proof for me that God is able to do anything.
            It really doesn’t bother me to be criticized for my faith as I know the person trying to bother me is not able to see the works of God because of their disbelief.
            The only problem I find is the demeaning way you do it. Why would you treat anyone like that if you want to convince them of your side being right? It will make people walk away from what you say just because no one likes to be spoken to in such a manner.
            So believe what you want to, and I’ll believe what I do, and there, now we can ignore each other when it is about the beliefs we both have.
            God bless!

          • Brien

            …because it’s not something you can see…
            or evaluate
            because it does not exist…
            You have delusions!!! and proud of your self-imposed lies!!!

          • Sharon_at_home

            I am a follower of Jesus and I cannot lie because of my devotion to the God I believe in.
            I am not delusional any more than you are.
            Actually I could evaluate it if I knew how to do a probability test according from what another poster suggested.
            As I said in the last post to you. I accept that you believe there is no God. It’s okay if you want to believe that way. It doesn’t bother me at all.
            We both have the right to believe what we will, and to be able to do that without being hassled by people who don’t believe the other side.
            Why does it bother you so much that I believe in something you don’t? There are people all over that will disagree on many things, why does it offend you so much that I disagree with you? it does not change how you believe, an it hurts no one else.
            Or are you concerned about the “what if it’s real” concept maybe? or maybe that is a subconscious thought and it’s agitated when you are being rude to the believers in God.
            Either way, if you won’t offer something to discuss without the rudeness, I for one will not reply again. You won’t bait me because I am firm in my belief. I have no doubt and nothing you say will ever have any effect on my belief.
            I have looked into why scientist believe what they believe, but having known the hand of God in my own life, I don’t have to rely on others to tell me what to believe. But I don’t see any reason to submit myself to a bully.
            God Bless!

          • Bob Johnson

            “So yes, this argument will remain if the “you can’t prove a god does not exist” remains on the religious table for argumentation.”

            In the abstract this statement is true. The big however is that once any specific claim is made about a god, then a test can be made. Some claims are of course too abstract to test, but many claims for the Biblical God can be tested as outlined in Victor Stenger’s book, “God: The Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist”.

          • DoorknobHead

            WHAT WE HAVE HERE, IS A FAILURE TO CORROBORATE
            Yep, yep. The religious can always retreat up the trail of abstracts and have problems demonstrating their gods existence within the mundane realm of reality. God used to wrestle with men on earth (and lose, or decline to fight men because that had iron chariots), and then men existed in every corner of the earth, god used to live on mountains, and then men could easily conquer mountains, in the clouds, then men could fly airplanes, and then space, then men with spacecraft and finally in an unseen realm of the supernatural because god ran out of hiding spaces within reality– but in any case he is always, just out of reach. I have not read “God: The Failed Hypothesis…” but I use that phrase all the time. Early models tend to not represent reality as well as do later models, and god does not represent what we see within reality well and is a failed hypothesis.

          • getstryker

            Very well said!

          • Sharon_at_home

            Thank you!

          • Brien

            That’s why it is called faith and not truth! You still believe in immature beliefs.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Your opinion. My opinion is that I am sad that you will not accept Jesus.
            Certainly as a Christian I would not be rude to anyone, but I guess you are not a Christian and that you are an atheist.
            Lets see; A Christian Comment board; a new atheist who does not realize that we can’t have a proper discussion when you act out.
            Your opinion does not matter because my faith is strong, and that’s because God has blessed in amazing ways and There is definitely true that He can do whatever He wants to do, but He gave us free will, which you use to bully other people.
            I know the truth because I’ve been shown the truth.
            You don’t believe so you can’t see the truth.
            l understand and give you a chance to continue to discuss it with me. I enjoy talking to people with different views as long as they are able to discuss, not throw rude comments back and forth.
            It’s up to you. God bless!

        • TheLastHonestLawyer

          Close to 2 billion Muslims would say that you’re wrong. How do you prove that you are right and the Koran, dictated to the Prophet (PBUH) by an Angel of Allah, is wrong?

          • Coach

            Most of whom are Muslim by force. Allan is a false god and just because of the numbers of people who follow the lies doesn’t mean anything, you will stand before the true and living God. Jesus said narrow is the way and few there be that find it. God will judge the world in righteousness, the false imaginations of men will be to there doom, as will be for you if you don’t repent and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.

          • Shane Egan

            How do you objectively assess this? Imagine I know nothing of any religion, what proof can you offer that could not be countered by a similar style of ‘proof’ from someone of a different religion? Apart from a feeling that you are correct in your belief, which people of other religions also have, what rationale do you have?

            If a man has a delusional belief, say that his neighbour is an alien, would you accept his sincere belief or would you ask for actual evidence (and try to get him psychiatric help)? How can an external, objective person determine you are telling the truth and not deluded?

          • Ambulance Chaser

            I don’t know. Allan is a pretty cool guy, but I wouldn’t call him a god.

          • tatoo

            There are some that are forced. Like in the Inquisition. But, most are not.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            Who is this Allen?

            And stop being ridiculous. Most of the Islamic world today has been that way for centuries. Syria and Lebanon, where my family comes from converted in the first decades of the expansion of Islam, even before the death of Mohammed (PBUH).

            The reason Islam expanded so quickly isn’t military. Islam used economics. Mohammed (PBUH) was a merchant, after all. Imans brought great gifts with them, and promised wealth to whoever converted. Also, they weren’t Greeks so the Arabs, Berbers, and Persians eagerly embraced this new faith.

            Islam fought when it had to. All populations do this.

            Now, if you want to talk about conversion by force, my wife is from a Yucateco Mayan family. The Christians who came to the Yucatan enslaved the Mayans, killed their priests, burned all the Mayan codexes they could find, and killed anyone who did not convert. It was cultural genocide at the hands of the Christian conquistadors.

            Christianity spread by fire and the sword.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Isn’t what you describe the Christians vs. the Mayans basically the same as what the Muslims believe? That the unbelievers should be killed and everyone else converted to Islam? That’s what I have understood from reading the Quran. Am I wrong in this understanding?

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            Absolutely not! It’s in the Koran that it is wrong to force people to convert. Which is why economic pressure is used. In almost every early Islamic state, there was a special tax on non-believers. It wasn’t much, but it was annoying. So they converted. That means their children and grandchildren were raised Muslim, and it was as natural as was being raised Christian was to you.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Then what is it that ISIS is following if it is not the Koran? They believe in exactly that from what they say to the media. Tell them to convert and if they won’t kill them. I’ll have to look at various sources I use to be sure which one states that, if you like. I’m looking at defending Muslims, not ISIS, but the ones that just want peace with everyone. If I understand the difference, I can use it to discuss racism towards Muslims and help people understand them better, right?
            Tell me what you understand about why ISIS says it is following the Koran if they are not? I already know the Koran tells them to be much like the bible tells us to behave, but this thing with ISIS is confusing with some saying it is of the Koran, and others that dispute it.
            Blessings!

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            Do you consider the Ku Klux Klan to be a Christian organization? They do. Even when they were lynching blacks, setting fire to churches, and setting bombs that killed children, they told everyone that they were good followers of Jesus.

            That’s what ISIS, or any terrorist group that claims to be Islamic is. People who pervert and twist the words of the faith to justify their actions. Just like the KKK found Biblical excuses to terrorize blacks for daring to live as citizens, so does ISIS find out-of-context passages from the Koran and Hadith to justify forced conversions and mass killings.

          • Sharon_at_home

            I think the first part was not necessary, but no I don’t consider the KKK Christian because they do not follow what the gospel teaches.
            Can you help me know the verses they use to twist the word so I can use them as a defense – comparing the things they say to the actual verses perverted. Do you honestly believe that Muslims are not populating places with the mind to convert and take over? This is what the posters here have said, which is why I am asking for an honest opinion.
            I am enjoying this discussion, thank you so much for giving me the information I can use in other posters racist comments.
            I’m looking forward to your Reply.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            It was necessary to give a point of reference. Most of the world’s Muslims are appalled by the actions of ISIS. Look at who is doing the bulk of fighting on the ground against them, Iraq, Turkey, and the Kurds – all Islamic peoples.

            2:256 There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.

            ISIS ignores that, and ignores the laws of Jihad.

            “You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.” [Quran 2:190]

            “O you who believe, if you strike in the cause of GOD, you shall be absolutely sure. Do not say to one who offers you peace, ‘You are not a believer,’ seeking the spoils of this world. For GOD possesses infinite spoils. Remember that you used to be like them, and GOD blessed you. Therefore, you shall be absolutely sure (before you strike). GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.” [Quran 4:94]

            “Say, ‘Come let me tell you what your Lord has really prohibited for you: You shall not set up idols besides Him. You shall honor your parents. You shall not kill your children from fear of poverty – we provide for you and for them. You shall not commit gross sins, obvious or hidden. You shall not kill – GOD has made life sacred – except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand.'” [Quran 6:151]

            “You shall not kill any person – for GOD has made life sacred – (wa la taqtulu an-nafsa allaty HARRAMA allahu) except in the course of justice. if one is killed unjustly, then we give his heir authority to enforce justice. Thus, he shall not exceed the limits in avenging the murder; he will be helped.” [Quran 17:33]

            “They never implore beside GOD any other god, nor do they kill anyone – for GOD has made life sacred – (wa la yaqtuluna an-nafsa allaty HARRAMA allahu) except in the course of justice. Nor do they commit adultery. Those who commit these offenses will have to pay.” [Quran 25:68]

            There are many more. They also selectively edit some verses. The whole chopping off the heads thing? Based on this verse:

            Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain.[Quran 47:4]

            The “smiting of necks” mentioned is military advice: cut off the leaders. Then, when you have routed the leaderless troops, bind them (keep them prisoner) and treat them with grace or allow themselves to be ransomed. But ISIS stops teaching this verse at the “smiting of necks line.

          • Sharon_at_home

            I have cut & pasted it into a word doc. and will go over it later tonight.
            I really appreciate your help with this. I’ll use it for sure when I need to.
            Thank you very much. I will get back to you if I have any questions if that’s okay.
            Have a good evening.

          • Sharon_at_home

            With a quick read through I think I can find a way to use this as a tool for racism.
            Well, I do know what Christians can do if they do not follow the gospel, so I try not to think about the Westboro Baptist Church or the KKK. I’m trying to follow Jesus and help others to follow Him too. Since I’ve been here I realize that the reason people hate the Christians is because the ‘Christians’ who are loudest are the ones that are ruining our reputation as a whole, by being judgemental, demeaning, and condemning.
            That is not the way Christians should behave at all. It has been very upsetting to me in that I have a hard time comparing the Christians that follow Jesus and the lets say, more blunt Christians. In another way it makes me feel good about my church because it focuses on Jesus’ Love rather than heavy pressure about repentance. I tend to babble so I don’t want to write too much and will be happy to explain what I mean by that if you are interested in another reply if you ask.
            So I do understand about this situation very well.
            Jesus told us to love everyone, I do. I’ll go through the information you gave me more thoroughly and work out how I can use it to help people see what is actually happening. If you’d like I’ll post it on here when I think it’s ready so you can see it, and let me know if I am saying something in the wrong way or something. Mostly I want to know for myself, but I know it would help Muslims here in North America, too. I love to help people!
            You know of course that I have to check this out on the ‘net? It is easier to say “this site shows this” than “A poster on one of the comment boards that I know said “this” lol. Besides I’ve learned that people want validation for what anyone says, so I am learning about comment board etiquette slowly.
            You are an ex-Muslim, is that right? I’m pretty sure I saw a comment that said that about you. It would be good to know too.

            Have a good one!

          • Amos Moses

            i would agree with them ….. but then we would all be wrong ………..

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            You are amazingly talented at avoiding questions.

          • Amos Moses

            “How do you prove that you are right and the Koran, dictated to the Prophet (PBUH) by an Angel of Allah, is wrong?”

            i am not right …. God is right …. and God is not Allah ………. not even in the same ball park …… not even in the same game ….. and an honest muslim will tell you the God of scripture is not Allah ……

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            Actually Allah ( الله‎ ) is Arabic for God, and if you read the Koran, you’d see that he is the same Abrahamic God. Muslims believe that God sent a series of Prophets; Abraham, Moses, Jesus, etc., before revealing the final truth of Mohammed (PBUH). Muslims refer to Christians, Jews, and some other followers of monotheistic faiths as “People of the Book” ( ′Ahl al-Kitāb ) meaning they part of the lineage leading up to Mohammed (PBUH) and Islam.

            Arabic and Coptic Christians call God Allah. It’s what the word means.

          • Amos Moses

            yeah ……. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ……….. NOT the same god …… no matter what it “translates” to …… is John, John and John all the same John …… because they all “translate” to “john” ………. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ……… and i said an HONEST muslim …..

          • Bob Johnson

            Nope, not John. Check out the fourth gospel in a Spanish Bible. The name is Juan.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            Ivan, Yahya, Johannes, Juan, Iōannēs, Giovanni, Sean… all forms of the name John, from the Hebrew Yohanan.

            You were saying?

          • Amos Moses

            TheLastHonestLawyer (PBUH)

            but they are not all referring to the same person of John …. whomever that John is ….. just because i share a name with another …… does not make them the samething or same person ……..

          • Brien

            ISIS exactly follows the rules, ideals and methods directly as written by their Mohamad – and it is imperative that we understand and accept that premise before any discussions.

            Let us not pretend that the modern Muslims living in our civilised communities represent Islam as they too would become hard core when their clerics demand that they follow the stricter interpretations of their ideology.
            This system is totalitarian – it is authoritarian – it is absolute – and you, we, do not define which part is the ‘real’ Islam – they do!
            Islam is more like, and more than, the Nazis in their hatreds of all not Islam.
            We all need to spend more time reading up on their actions and activities in not just their own nations where they are at constant war with non-Muslims and other sects within Islam, but also in Europe, where they are uprooting all the traditional and progressive systems in place.
            This is no time to be defending a system which has declared itself to be the enemy of democracy and stands against all human rights.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            OK, quote the Koran, show me the complete passages you claim gives ISIS leave to kill and rape.

            45:14 Tell those who believe to forgive those who hope not for the days of Allah; in order that He may requite folk what they used to earn.

          • Bob Johnson

            And another 1 billion Hindu

        • tatoo

          Blah, blah, blah.

      • Amos Moses

        doorknobhead …. that explains this response ……….

        • DoorknobHead

          Inability to present viable counter-arguments partially explains your response.

          • Amos Moses

            you have no argument …….. nothing to counter ……

          • DoorknobHead

            HYPOTHESIS 1: DOES NOT KNOW WHAT ‘ARGUMENT’ MEANS
            > I guess if a person does not know or denies the common meaning of words, such as ‘argument’ (denial is a common religious tactic to cease thinking), then that is the lazy-best needed as a response.

            A definition of argument:
            1) an exchange of diverging or opposing views.
            2) a reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong?

            HYPOTHESIS 2: AMOS MOSES IS ALSO AN ATHEIST
            > Wait, if we apply the definition 1) of the word “argument” above, and then apply it to your comment “…nothing to counter…” then it could be the case that you are also an atheist as you don’t think we have any diverging or opposing views!

            HYPOTHESIS 3: NOT MUCH OF A READER
            > Another hypothesis is you are not much for reading, and never read the comments, and therefore there is nothing to counter since you never read them. Instead you deny things and come to conclusions about things without an honest investigation into anything except your own inculcated worldview. That is a pretty good way to remain wrong.

          • Amos Moses

            yawn ……..

          • DoorknobHead

            yawn ………

          • Brien

            Excuse you! The responsibility is upon you!! You!! You make the claim of a god – you, therefore, must prove what you claim. No Proof = A Lie !!

          • Amos Moses

            nope …. i do not claim God ….. the evidence for God is abundant …… you refuse to see the evidence ……. and even if what you say is true …. absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence ……… only evidence that YOU have not looked in the right place ….. you dropped your keys in the living room but want to look for them in the kitchen because you think the light is better ……. WRONG …… FAIL …. DENIAL OF THE EVIDENCE …… and you are the liar ..

          • DoorknobHead

            THE POTENTIAL COPY-CAT, CAT, FROM WAY BACK
            > I also like the phrase “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”. This phrase applies pretty well for Jesus: although there is zero evidence, that exists from his lifetime, for a regular human philosopher named Jesus, that does not mean that a human named Jesus did not exist and start a religion by copying from prior religions and was just too irrelevant to be noticed by the historians and authorities from his life time. Yet usually such god-types are not based upon real people, as is the case with other religions, but are instead created by people that claim the existence of such agents. To be consistent with other religions, it is reasonable that the people that actually started Christianity also dreamed up a bloke named Jesus that did godly things while stealing stories from other nearby religions.

          • Amos Moses

            “although there is zero evidence, that exists from his lifetime,”

            so not a reader of ancient history ….. yawn …..

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            There is no evidence from the time specified as Jesus’ lifetime for his existence. The Romans kept meticulous records, and they never mention this rabble-rousing teacher nor his execution.

            I challenge you to come up with contemporary evidence accepted by archaeologists for the existence of Yeshua ben Yoseph.

            Did you know his name was really Joshua? “Jesus” is a Latin corruption of the Greek version of the Hebrew name.

          • Amos Moses

            “I challenge you to come up with contemporary evidence accepted by archaeologists for the existence of Yeshua ben Yoseph.”

            Titus Flavius Josephus (37 – c. 100), born Joseph ben Matityahu (Hebrew: יוסף בן מתתיהו, Yosef ben Matityahu; Greek: Ἰώσηπος Ματθίου), was a first-century Romano-Jewish scholar, historian

            Publius (or Gaius) Cornelius Tacitus (c. AD 56 – c. AD 120) was a senator and an historian of the Roman Empire …..

            both wrote of Him and would have had access to the witnesses of the events ………. also ….

            Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus, born Gaius Caecilius or Gaius Caecilius Cilo (61 – c. 113), better known as Pliny the Younger (/ˈplɪni/), was a lawyer, author, and magistrate of Ancient Rome. Pliny’s uncle, Pliny the Elder, helped raise and educate him. Both Pliny the Elder and the Younger were witnesses to the eruption of Vesuvius in 79 AD, in which the former died.

            Epistle concerning the Christian Religion[edit]
            Main article: Pliny the Younger on Christians
            As the Roman governor of Bithynia-Pontus (now in modern Turkey) Pliny wrote a letter to Emperor Trajan around 112 AD and asked for counsel on dealing with Christians. As shown in the letter (Epistulae X.96) Pliny explained to Trajan that “he had never been present at any trials of the Christians” who appeared before him as a result of anonymous accusations and asked for the Emperor’s guidance on how they should be treated.[16] He added, “if they still persevered” after being interrogated he “ordered them to be executed” as he thought that “obstinacy deserved chastisement.[17]” However he wished to consult the Emperor in order to be on solid ground regarding his actions, and saved his letters and Trajan’s replies. Neither Pliny nor Trajan mention the crime that Christians had committed, except for being a Christian; Trajan’s response to Pliny makes it clear that being known as a “Christian” was sufficient for judicial action.[18] The correspondence between Pliny and Emperor Trajan shows that the Roman Empire, as a government entity, did not at this time “seek out” Christians for prosecution or persecution.[19] Pliny’s letter is the earliest surviving Roman document to refer to early Christians

            so plenty of evidence …. accepted as credible by “academia” ….. and all wrote of christianity, Christ and christians ……. and then there is just the name “christian” itself ….. as testimony of Christ ……….

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            OK, you need to learn what contemporary means. I was born in 1958. I am not contemporary with World War II. I am with The Beatles.

            Every single source you cite was writing *decades* after the events, and basing their writings on fourth or fifth hand knowledge. There is considerable evidence that Josephus’ mentions of Christ were added by later translators.

            What you have is terrible evidence. Show me someone living as an adult in the area of Jerusalem who wrote on these matters.

            There is no doubt that by the early 2nd century CE the was a Christian cult. Just like right now in the United Kingdom there are enough people who identify as Jedi to get it listed as a real religion on census forms. Does that make the force real?

            I can show you endless Byzantine reports about the new faith racing out of Arabia and making converts everywhere. The Emperor Heraclius (575-641) is mentioned in the Koran! The 30th Surah, Ar-Rum, is all about the Roman Empire. The name means “The Romans.” Pope Martin I mentions Muslims in a letter written in 655 CE.

            Does this mean there is no God but God, and Mohammed is his Prophet?

            Of course not, no more than the existence of a rock on the Temple Mount proves that Mohammed (PBUH) flew from Mecca to Jerusalem in a single night.

          • Amos Moses

            keep reading …… and to have access to the people of that era ….. IS CONTEMPORARY …… despite YOUR protests ……… quit your whining …… you got NUFFIN ……….

          • Brien

            Ok, that’s enough now – your denials are childish and amateurish. You need to try to understand logic and fallacy. Your arguments are not accepted in debate nor in a court of law ie truth.
            If you were an adult you would admit that there is no acceptable and verifiable evidence and that your beliefs are based on faith. (this is what intelligent and educated religionists do to defend their beliefs when they know that their claims are indefensible)

          • Amos Moses

            there is all kinds of evidence …. you do not accept the evidence ….. so what ……….

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            No, having access at a later date is not contemporary. In the law business, we call that hearsay. Without hard physical evidence, they are just claims made by people decades removed from the events.

            Even the canonical Gospels are not contemporary to the events. The oldest Gospel, Mark, was written at least 20 years after the events described. Matthew and Luke obviously used Mark and another document called the Q Document, as sources. John was written up to a century after the alleged life of Jesus.

            Interestingly, the oldest versions of Mark found end at 16:8, with the women fleeing the open tomb in fear. There are no post-resurrection appearances. Those were added later, when the Bible was pounded into its current form. Even then, there are two different versions of Mark 16 out there.

          • Amos Moses

            yes …. it is …….. sorry ……

          • Amos Moses

            right …. and the entire justice system of this country is built on eye witness testimony …. so i guess you doubt every case in this country ….. nice ……….

            “Even the canonical Gospels are not contemporary to the events. ”

            they most certainly are ………

          • Amos Moses

            oh, BTW …. the SCRIPTURES are accepted as authentic …… by archaeology ….. via the DEAD SEA SCROLLS ……. available online ……… dated to the time of Christ ……….

            The Dead Sea Scrolls, in the narrow sense of Qumran Caves Scrolls,[notes 1] are a collection of some 981 different manuscripts discovered between 1946/47, 1956 and 2017 in 12 caves (Qumran Caves) in the immediate vicinity of the Hellenistic-period Jewish settlement at Khirbet Qumran in the eastern Judaean Desert, the modern West Bank. The caves are located about two kilometres (1.2 miles) inland from the northwest shore of the Dead Sea, whence they derive their name.[3] The consensus is that the Qumran Caves Scrolls date from the last three centuries BCE and the first century CE.[2] Bronze coins found at the same sites form a series beginning with John Hyrcanus (135–104 BCE) and continuing until the First Jewish–Roman War (66–73 CE), supporting the radiocarbon and paleographic dating of the scrolls

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            No, they are accepted as existing and showing the history of the rise of a new monotheistic faith.

            Does your Bible include the Gospel of Thomas? The Infancy Gospel of James? You have to have the Gospel of Judas Iscariot, right?

            Those are all scriptures, and only a small sampling, that were used by various branches of the early church before the New Testament was edited down to its current form. Archaeologists and Biblical historians will gladly agree they exist.

            Doesn’t mean they are any more based in fact that the Koran.

          • Brien

            Still all hearsay – they are accepted as ancient scrolls only.
            You have to stop this….

          • Amos Moses

            right …. and the entire justice system of this country is built on eye witness testimony …. so i guess you doubt every case in this country ….. nice …………

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            BWAHAHAHA!!!! Oh, you are just killing me? That may be the funniest thing I’ve read this week!

            Please, show me where the Justice system is based on eyewitnesses testimony. It’s only mentioned in the Constitutional definition of treason, nowhere else.

            If you were right, than all you would have to do to get away with murder is make sure you and the victim were alone. After all, little things like motive, means, opportunity, physical evidence, supporting testimony, forensic testimony, financial evidence… you know (or don’t know) the stuff we use in real courts when deciding criminal cases.

            Anyway, eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. People, especially in stressful situations, miss details. Their mind edits things, adding details they missed. At night, a blue car becomes a black car. No, I’m sure the guy running from the store was black, says the eyewitness who was across the street and only saw the suspect when he was back lit by store lights.

            I once examined an eyewitness who admitted the discrepancy between her description of a robbery suspect changed from when she spoke with the police to when she gave her deposition because she saw the suspects photo on TV. That was about eight weeks, as I recall.

            You are talking about gaps of decades and distances of hundreds of miles in an area with few roads.

            I’ve seen the DA drop a case because the only evidence was an eyewitness. Because it would to easy for my side to raise reasonable doubt.

          • Brien

            Facile, thus childish!
            No it is not based on unsubstantiated eye witness testimony – it must be verified as reputable or as ‘expert’.

          • Amos Moses

            no …… even an “expert” witness has to have witnessed something …. and that is FAR from the only evidence offered ……….. and the qualification of “reputable” …… even more difficult to prove ………..

          • Brien

            “although there is zero evidence, that exists from his lifetime,”
            so not a reader of ancient history ”
            That one is hilarious! In fact that is the whole point – we Do read history and there is no Jesus in history.
            Try to find it and stay away from your Tacitus stories (you should know why)

          • Amos Moses

            then you read the wrong books ………. tell us when you ever read Josephus ……….

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            Evidence is a word that had meaning. As a lawyer, evidence means something that can clearly be shown and understood by every observer without requiring a special revelation.

            For example, Take a gun. In a murder trial the prosecution can enter the gun into evidence with supporting evidence provided by witnesses that it was found in the defendant’s car, had his fingerprints on it, and bullets fired from it matched those found in the victim.

            What isn’t evidence? Your statement. If you are claiming that I just don’t see something, tell me what I’m missing. But telling me that a natural event has a supernatural cause will only lead to more questions about the veracity of you evidence.

            Years ago my younger sister lived in a small town that went all out for Christmas. The main street was decorated to be a winter wonderland and there was a great parade. When my sister’s oldest was about three, they went to this main drag on successive days to do some shopping. Of course, these trips happened on the days the decorations were put it.

            My niece announced that Santa Claus had come and put up Christmas decorations. At three, she had no idea about civic planning, budget meetings, public works vehicles, warehousing, civic group volunteers, or what an all-nighter meant. She just saw something happen and attributed it to a magical power.

            So try to make a stronger argument than a three year old.

            (Yes, we celebrate the secular version of Christmas.)

          • Amos Moses

            yeah …. unless a person is blinded to the evidence by a persons own unrighteousness ……. then not so much ………

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            In other words, you have no evidence.

          • Amos Moses

            the evidence is abundant …. and as i said …… your unrighteousness blinds you to it …..

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            Do you realize that you just blessed me?

          • Brien

            Not abundant except to the deluded, true evidence is not questioned – it is obvious – none of your ‘evidence’ is obvious – it is imaginary!
            Now, if you want credibility in your claim of a god, then you must proffer evidence for educated adults not for indoctrinated loyal followers.

          • Bob Johnson

            You can start with Victor Stenger’s book, “God: The Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist”

          • Amos Moses

            nope … you can start with the PRESUPPOSITION that He does ….. and science has NEVER disproved it ………… in fact mans reason and logic CANNOT disprove a Creator God ………. never has …. that is just post-modern garbage ……….

          • Brien

            Don’t use English if you can’t speak it properly. You just said that the evidence is abundant – that is making a claim and we simply doubt the veracity of that claim – now since you made that claim – you are required to prove that claim or accept the fact that you refuse to provide that proof ,’, therefore all you have is an unproven claim = a Lie!

          • Amos Moses

            then you doubt reality …. and again …… if that is your position ….. then what is there to continue to discuss ………… every thing you see when your eyes are open is the evidence of God ….. you reject that evidence and therefore the truth ……….. nothing left to be said ……..

          • Brien

            Damn me… you brought the evidence…and I missed it again…something about reality…??…Maybe it needs to be repeated in simpler terms…what evidence was that again…??

          • Amos Moses

            nope … you did not miss it ….. you are blind to it …… it is in front of you every minute of every day …… but you say it does not exist ………

          • Brien

            Let’s have some Bable quotes – they are always good for evidence…The Bible is a compendium of fire side tales and fables recounted orally for generations by goat herders and primitive tribes, until writing was invented and then again many different sources and versions were written down.
            There were no grand central universities to organise the many various versions of these origin stories.
            They were for entertainment and to answer the many mysteries of our universe since there was no science yet.
            This is the old Testament.

          • Amos Moses

            again …… no evidence …. just your unsubstantiated OPINION …..

          • Brien

            The ‘new’ Testes is also hearsay since these letters/gossip, ‘gospels’ and stories were written by the loyal faithful, not by objective historians at that particular time, or by any contemporary writers, and written many years after the supposed events of this mythical Jesus. Thus, there is no verifiable evidence of a Jesus.
            Then many of these stories, not all, were compiled by one self-absorbed converted Roman Emperor for his expressed purpose of conquest and control of the people of Europe.
            He recognised that this was the perfect religion/mythology for domination of the populace.
            Half the books/stories were ignored by the Nicean Bishops, or thrown out by Constantine, and none have been proven to be based on fact.
            This ‘Bible’ is backed up by absolutely no facts and evidence.

          • Amos Moses

            again ….. you have no evidence to support those assertions ……….

            Dramatically, when the Bible manuscripts are compared to other ancient writings, they stand alone as the best-preserved literary works of all antiquity. Remarkably, there are thousands of existing Old Testament manuscripts and fragments copied throughout the Middle East, Mediterranean and European regions that agree phenomenally with each other. In addition, these texts substantially agree with the Septuagint version of the Old Testament, which was translated from Hebrew to Greek some time during the 3rd century BC. The Dead Sea Scrolls, discovered in Israel in the 1940’s and 50’s, also provide astounding evidence for the reliability of the ancient transmission of the Jewish Scriptures (Old Testament) in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries BC.

            The manuscript evidence for the “New Testament” is also dramatic, with nearly 25,000 ancient manuscripts discovered and archived so far, at least 5,600 of which are copies and fragments in the original Greek. Some manuscript texts date to the early second and third centuries, with the time between the original autographs and our earliest existing fragment being a remarkably short 40-60 years.

            Interestingly, this manuscript evidence far surpasses the manuscript reliability of other ancient writings that we trust as authentic every day. Look at these comparisons: Julius Caesar’s The Gallic Wars (10 manuscripts remain, with the earliest one dating to 1,000 years after the original autograph); Pliny the Younger’s Natural History (7 manuscripts; 750 years elapsed); Thucydides’ History (8 manuscripts; 1,300 years elapsed); Herodotus’ History (8 manuscripts; 1,350 years elapsed); Plato (7 manuscripts; 1,300 years); and Tacitus’ Annals (20 manuscripts; 1,000 years).

            it is even a close call …… the biblical record outstrips ANY competition as to accuracy and the MOUNTAIN of evidence of its history ………..

          • Amos Moses

            In real terms, the New Testament is easily the best attested ancient writing in terms of the sheer number of documents, the time span between the events and the document, and the variety of documents available to sustain or contradict it. There is nothing in ancient manuscript evidence to match such textual availability and integrity.

            The academic discipline of “textual criticism” assures us that the Bible translations we have today are essentially the same as the ancient Bible manuscripts, with the exception of a few inconsequential discrepancies that have been introduced over time through copyist error. We must remember that the Bible was hand-copied for hundreds of years before the invention of the first printing press. Nevertheless, the text is exceedingly well preserved. Again, I pondered this — of the approximately 20,000 lines that make up the entire New Testament, only 40 lines are in question. These 40 lines represent one quarter of one percent of the entire text and do not in any way affect the teaching and doctrine of the New Testament. I again compared this with Homer’s Iliad. Of the approximately 15,600 lines that make up Homer’s classic, 764 lines are in question. These 764 lines represent over 5% of the entire text, and yet nobody seems to question the general integrity of that ancient work.

      • Robert

        Your argument would only hold water if there was not the God of the bible who is above all . And since we know he is God. You can go jump in the lake.

        • DoorknobHead

          HOLDING WATER — LIKE A LAKE
          > My argument holds water, then, just like lakes hold water because lakes are concordant with reality, unlike the mythical literal existence of creator or lesser gods.

          IN AT LEAST ONE WAY, ALL THE RELIGIOUS ARE CORRECT
          > You know god exists, just like people of other religions know their gods exist, with use of the same unreliable methods for “knowledge”. You think their gods do not exist, and they think your god does not exist — and I think you all are correct on this point.

          SUMMER — GREAT LAKE JUMPING WEATHER
          > Also, I agree that I can go jump in a lake — because lakes, and jumping in lakes, are also concordant with reality, while actually Interacting with mythical gods, not so much.

    • Ambulance Chaser

      Sue them for what cause of action?

    • Brien

      Excellent idea! Then we could demand that you finally have to show proof for your claims of a god.
      Since you can’t show any proof – you will be shown for the liars that you are.
      Isn’t it time that you start to question what goat-herders wrote for you from the stone age?

      • Jason Todd

        Bye troll.

        Blocked.

        • TheLastHonestLawyer

          You block anyone who can out-think you. Makes me wonder why you bother to post at all.

        • Brien

          Trolls are people who intelligently and intellectually challenge your parent-enforced indoctrination in your book??

        • Brien

          Bye….

      • Ambulance Chaser

        No, apparently in his mind it isn’t. That’s why he blocked you; he’s literally petrified of the thought that something might work its way in and force him to critically examine his beliefs.

    • tatoo

      The FFRF would win that one also.

    • Amos Moses

      seem to have a fresh crop of neener, neener, neeners …………..

    • Brien

      Yes !! Do that, because then you will have to bring in your gods as witness for your claims, and provide expert scientific proof for the existence of your gods!!!!

  • disqus_BDBCEvISae

    I pity the citizens of Neosho. The city council will spend tax dollars fighting and losing a lawsuit. There are so many ways that money could be better spent.

    • Jason Todd

      And you know this because….?

      • Colin Rafferty

        Because every single city that fights this kind of thing loses. Every single one.

    • Grace Kim Kwon

      No cross = No freedom. Read John 8.

      • disqus_BDBCEvISae

        “Just living is not enough,” said the butterfly, “one must have sunshine, freedom, and a little flower.” ― Hans Christian Andersen,

        • Grace Kim Kwon

          God made life, sunshine, flower, and freedom. Hans Christian Andersen was Christian. Westerners should stop painting their ancestors as homosexuals. Westerners of yesteryears were not pervs but Christians.

  • This style 10/6

    Always amazes me, how many Americans don’t know their own Constitution.

    • Grasshopper

      Oh my goodness yes, isn’t it just horrible? How can we endure it???

    • Charlene

      Apparently the guys who wrote it didn’t know it either. James Madison as president attended Christian worship services held in the US Capitol.

      Who should we trust – the Founders, or some dimwitted atheist troll?

      • This style 10/6

        Check out SCOTUS decisions.

        I guess all those you disagree with are trolls.

      • Ambulance Chaser

        Neither. The Supreme Court.

        • Amos Moses

          mmmmmmmm ….. nope ………….

      • Amos Moses

        from canada ……

      • Guzzman

        You wrote, “James Madison as president attended Christian worship services held in the US Capitol.” You point to a unique circumstance in our history. Here is some context.

        The District of Columbia was a sparsely populated, undeveloped tract of land that was purchased by the Federal Government circa 1790 so that it could construct buildings to house all three branches of government. The obvious reason church services (and concerts, and gambling, and other entertainment) were held in unoccupied government buildings was that the newly built capital did not yet have churches, or any other buildings, that could accommodate them. Even a decade later in 1803, U.S. Senator John Quincy Adams famously complained: “There is no church of any denomination in this city.”

        This unique circumstance has no bearing whatsoever on the constitutional separation of religion and government. James Madison was free to attend a church service as a private citizen. That does not offend the Constitution. Indeed, as churches and other accommodations were completed, this practice was discontinued.

  • Luminous

    Some of my ancestors lived in that part of Missouri. Tough, no-nonsense Scotch-Irish and German frontiersmen who wouldn’t take guff from anyone. Glad to know that spirit is still alive in America.

    • tatoo

      Hope they have the money to lose, because they will.

      • Judy Ceselski Holden

        Nope. I live in Neosho and FFRF sent a statement that they had backed down on this issue according to the mayor.

        • Luminous

          Glad to hear that. These bigots need to learn to mind their own business.

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    America is free only because of the Christian religion. America belongs to Christians.

    • DoorknobHead

      BOLE-ING FOR COLLARS
      The first statement is necessarily incorrect and untrue, within a shared reality, because of the inclusion of the word “only”. When some people bole, they tend to hyperbole, don’t they. It may not be understood by some how including the word “only” makes this the case, and the statement not only incorrect but also perverse, but nonetheless that is the case. Yet, some people’s worldview includes magical thinking and can use Harry-Potter-type super-special-magic to create any reality in their minds, where people that have not been magically transformed by the magical realm have zero positive affect upon the magical realm, because that is how an unseen puppet-master pulls the strings.

      • Bob Johnson

        On the other hand, the entire Universe was created for Zaphod Beebelbrox. It was his world view and he was correct.

        • DoorknobHead

          I heard it was Fred the Universe farting pixie, and his pet squirrel.

        • Grace Kim Kwon

          Unbelieving Westerners are not serious on anything; that’s why you guys only keep mocking like foolish men.

          • Brien

            We mock those who say silly things without any proof or evidence of their claims – seems like a reasonable thing to do to liars.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Non-christian Westerners are always only for slavery as long as they are powerful. Sin is slavery. The West needs Christianity to obtain freedom. John 8.

          • Brien

            Extraordinarily stupid person!
            You quote from a fallacious source…you believe in absurd man-made concepts like ‘sin’… Show proof for your god or just shut up!!!!

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Ex-christian West is the mega proof that mankind need Christianity. Christian Westerners were noble and intelligent and hard-working and slender. Secular Westerners are Sodomic and mentally ill. Crusaders are even better than today’s secular Westerners. They did not bring men into women’s restrooms to endanger all women and children. You guys are too well-fed and bored. Poor your fathers. What stupid disgraceful sons for one to have. You must repent of your sins to get saved and live like a man. Read Psalm 14 and John 3.

    • Brien

      America was free because it protected all from the vagaries of royalty, religion and military dictates, which also protected the religious from the controlling other religion. America belonged to those wanting freedom from religion.

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        You are wrong. America has been good and free only because of Christianity. Non-christian Westerners(Americans) put the peoples of colors together with the sexually depraved in the same category and enslave mankind with Sodomy.

        • Brien

          Too stupid and uneducated….Y’all jest kip takin’ them thar
          smart pills, ya heya??!!

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You don’t understand. Westerners need Christianity for morality and ethics or virtues, not just for salvation. Apart from the Judeo-Christian values, secular (Western) culture is an immoral chaos.

  • disqus_BDBCEvISae

    If your church wants to put a Christian cross on their yard, go ahead. If you want to put a Star and Crescent in your yard, go ahead. If your business wants to put the Star of David in their yard, go ahead. However, if a city wants to put a symbol of a single religion on public property, that’s rude, inconsiderate, and unconstitutional.

    • Boommach

      Who is your god?

      • TheLastHonestLawyer

        Willie Mays. Next question?

        • Bob Johnson

          Spoken like a Northern California kid. Careful now, he stole lots of bases.

      • disqus_BDBCEvISae

        What makes you think I limit myself to one?
        Who are your gods?

        • Boommach

          I worship Jehovah. Who is your god? Who is the god that sanctions your of hate and lies

          • disqus_BDBCEvISae

            I don’t hate or lie. Nor am I a sheep who worships a shepherd. I merely seek truth and fairness for people of all beliefs of or none.

          • disqus_BDBCEvISae

            Oh, then your symbol should be the Watchtower. If you answered Jesus, you might be able to say the Latin cross, or perhaps the Tau-Rho Cross, the Cross of Lazarus, or the Crusader’s Cross. Even those who call themselves Christians can’t decide.

          • Boommach

            I am Christian. You believe all who know Jehovah to be God are Jehovah’s Witnesses? Who is you god? Who is the god of your petulant nonsense and cowardice?

    • Jason Todd

      LOL

      • Ambulance Chaser

        LOL what? Do you think he’s wrong? Why?

    • DoorknobHead

      ON POINT!
      Great comment, and on point too! Meanwhile I feel all colors of shame because I’ve been distracted by the religious and their god claims, instead of concentrating on the article and the Constitutionally noble and wise separation of government and religion.
      ‘merica!

  • Amos Moses

    Enlightened ‘Minecraft’ Character Denies Existence Of Game Designer
    May 29, 2017

    • Shane Egan

      So, apart from your ‘wit’ do you have any evidence for any god, let alone your particular version? How can an objective observer determine that your version of god is the real one as opposed to that of other sincere believers from other faiths? How do we gather evidence to support your claim over all others?

      • Amos Moses

        the evidence for God is abundant … you deny its exists ….. you choose blindness to it …..

      • Amos Moses

        so it comes down to who decides …. so tell me … who decides …. from a biblical perspective …….

      • Amos Moses

        BTW … not my wit ….. cut and pasted ……….

        186.124.100.126:56895—An enlightened, freethinking NPC on a lightly modded Minecraft server announced Monday that he denies the existence of Notch and the team at Mojang, explaining that he doesn’t see any evidence of design in the clearly designed game world around him.

        “My current working theory is that this digital landscape spontaneously created itself around 20 billion years ago, with no input from any kind of magic game designer in the sky,” he told a gathering of villagers in a coffee shop. “The evidence of order and tightly designed game mechanisms are merely random, chaotic patterns. Your lives are all meaningless.”

        When other NPCs disagreed, pointing out that the carefully coded game design was powerful evidence that a higher intelligence named Notch created in 2009, the anti-designer activist was ready with an answer.

        “If this ‘Notch’ is real, why doesn’t he just reveal himself? The idea of a ‘creator’ is simply wishful thinking for weak-minded people who can’t come to terms with the fact that we are alone on this server,” he added. “If we could just abandon the shackles of that Dark Ages way of thinking, just think how much progress we could make.”

        At publishing time, the anti-designer NPC had begun calling anyone who confronted him with the clear evidence of design all around him as a “science denier.”

  • Trilemma

    This cross has been there 87 years. I think it should stay because of its historical significance to the depression era people who put it there.

    • Colin Rafferty

      The fact that the government has endorsed a particular religion for 87 years doesn’t mean that they should get to keep endorsing it. Maybe we could apply that logic in other areas:

      – But I haven’t paid taxes in ten years, why should I start now?
      – I’ve been practicing medicine without a license my whole adult life. Why should I stop?
      – We’ve been bear-baiting for hundreds of years. It’s part of our history. Don’t fill in the pit.

      • Trilemma

        Not paying your taxes and practicing medicine without a license are illegal and had to be done in secret. This cross was not built in secret but for all to see. When the cross was built it was not considered unconstitutional and should be grandfathered. The cross has historical meaning while your illegal activity doesn’t. Christianity is an important part of US history. Bear baiting was legal hundreds of years ago and is still legal in some states. But your pit has no historical value and is a safety hazard.

        • Colin Rafferty

          It is illegal for the government to endorse one religion over all others. It always has been.

          The fact that no one has called them out on their illegal activities over the past 87 years doesn’t make it right.

          Historical meaning doesn’t make something right, or legal.

          • Trilemma

            Whether or not this particular cross is illegal is based on the courts interpretation of the First Amendment. Back when this cross was built the interpretation would have been that it’s not a First Amendment violation. Therefore, it should be grandfathered.

            By today’s interpretation, it is illegal to place a cross, the Ten Commandments or any other religious graven image on public property at the exclusion of others and, therefore, I’m against such efforts.

          • Colin Rafferty

            I honestly don’t understand why it should be grandfathered. If your town had been discriminating against you and your family for 87 years, and was finally found guilty of it, your instinct is to allow them to continue to discriminate against you. They will continue to spend tax money on upkeep and maintenance and lighting for their symbol of discrimination.

            Your children and grandchildren in fifty years will still be discriminated against, but it’s okay, because they didn’t realize it when they started discriminating against you, so they should be allowed to continue to discriminate.

            And to head off any claim that this is not discrimination, of course it is, both legally, and morally. Greece v Galloway is the legal precedent. And morally, it is clearly the government saying that Christianity is more important than every other religion

          • Trilemma

            Let’s say you live in the house your grandfather built with his own hands. When he built it, it met all the construction codes. However, today it doesn’t meet the codes so the city evicts you and demolishes the house. After all, it’s always been unsafe.

            Let’s say you kill an intruder on your property but you’re not charged with a crime because of a stand your ground law. A year later the stand your ground law is ruled unconstitutional. You’re arrested and thrown in prison for 20 years. After all, murder has always been illegal.

            The outcome of Greece v Galloway is that on May 5, 2014, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled 5-4 in favor of the Town of Greece, and that the town’s practice of beginning legislative sessions with prayers does not violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. That means beginning legislative sessions with prayers is not discrimination. By extension, that means this cross is not discriminatory either.

          • Colin Rafferty

            You are missing the point of Greece v Galloway. They are required to allow all religions and non-religions to say the opening prayers. It is illegal to have just a single religion open the prayer. If the town allowed anyone to add any religious symbol of equal size, then it would be okay. But restricting it to just a cross is illegal discrimination.

            And your hypotheticals are also missing the point. I’ll add them. After the stand your ground law is nullified, you kill another intruder, and say “but the last time I did it, I was allowed!”

            And if I tried to sell the house, I wouldn’t be able to without bringing it up to code.

            Having the cross and continuing to spend money on the cross is continuing to discriminate against some of the people of the town. Every single time the town spends one cent maintaining it, that is active discrimination.

            Let’s come back a year from now and see how this all turns out. My prediction, based on every other town that discriminates like this, is that it will be gone.

          • TheLastHonestLawyer

            1. The property owner would be given a chance to upgrade the building. Happens all the time around here with seismic retrofitting.

            2. Illegal under the Constitution. The act was legal when committed, therefore it can not be illegal.

            3. You totally misread Greece v Galloway. That concerned prayer, an activity, against a permanent marker. I can get up and leave the room if the prayer offends me. How do I deal with a giant religious marker in my local park? Also, the town council could invite a rabbi or druid to give an invocation, the cross in the park represents a single religious viewpoint, and is thus an establishment of religion.

          • Trilemma

            One hundred years ago would the courts have ruled this cross illegal?

          • Bob Johnson

            A hundred years ago driving a car through Newbury Vermont faster than a man could walk was illegal.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Who cares?

          • Trilemma

            Is there any case law from a hundred years ago concerning a cross on public land?

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Not to my knowledge. What are you getting at here?

          • Trilemma

            Why should the city be penalized and forced to pay to remove the cross if the cross was not a First Amendment violation when it was built? In Salazar v. Buono where the Supreme Court ruled a cross in the Mojave National Preserve could stay, justice Anthony Kennedy wrote, “The goal of avoiding governmental endorsement [of religion] does not require eradication of all religious symbols in the public realm”.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            I’m guessing you’re basing your argument on the Wikipedia summary of the case, which unfortunately is an inaccurate synopsis of what the Supreme Court ruled.

            The first case, brought by Buono, was the question over whether the Mojave Cross was constitutional. It went as far as the 9th Circuit, which ruled that displaying the Cross on federal land was unconstitutional. So Congress ordered that the land be transferred to a private entity, which it did (the VFW).

            Buono then filed another suit, complaining that this wasn’t good enough because nothing changed other than the deeds and division of some lands. Physically, every object was exactly where it was before. It was still a giant cross in the middle of a national park, it’s just that the one particular acre it sat on (and nothing else) was now deeded to a private group. And there was no evidence of this anywhere on the land.

            This one went to the Supreme Court, which held “you wanted it off federal land, now it’s off. Stop moving the goalposts; you got what you wanted. Don’t be a sore winner.”

          • Trilemma

            Which Supreme Court justice did you quote? I can’t find it anywhere. My understanding is that the Supreme Court did not rule on the constitutionality of the land swap but ruled the cross could stay on public land while the lower court took another look at the land swap. Then, the U.S. District Court for the Central District of California approved the land swap in April, 2012.

            Based on the comments some of the Supreme Court justices made, such as the one by Justice Anthony Kennedy, I get the impression they would have let the cross stay even without the land swap even though the cross in question was erected in 1998.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            I didn’t quote anyone, I paraphrased it.

            It would really help you understand if you read the actual decision. It’s free for anyone at Oyez. Google Oyez Salazar v. Buono.

          • Brien

            because it is now….and Kennedy was out moded, thus the necessary eradication.
            How about equality for all equally!!!

          • Trilemma

            Eradication does not result in equality for all equally.

          • Brien

            Of course not – and that is the point! Women did not have the vote either; and neither did we have that slogan ‘In God…’ on everything.
            Drop the religious crap on out tax-paid and government facilities!

          • Trilemma

            Religion has been a big part of America’s history, traditions and culture from its foundation. To eradicate all religious symbols from government facilities and land would eradicate America’s identity.

  • Brien

    Why can you not stop trying to force your religion onto everybody else?
    That is no different to a dictatorship as you would have under a theocracy.
    You are forcing all others to bow to your specific and particular religion/mythology.
    We live in a democratic republic under a Constitution which by definition is supposed to defend all peoples’ rights, not just the majority.
    Why do you feel justified in abrogating other people’s rights?
    These stickers/signs, on government vehicles and facilities, are a clear discriminatory act against me, and my family!
    These stickers/signs exclude a whole segment of American citizens from the community.
    They are divisive, and the offices using them consciously know that this is a divisive act, and are purposely continuing to offend the citizens in their communities.
    Are these the acts of true Americans? Putting your religion above the Constitution and the rights of supposedly fellow Americans?

  • Brien

    You all do realise that by continuing to demand special privileges for your religion, here Christians, that you keep the door open for the Islamists to do exactly the same; and if you have been paying attention they are demanding a whole hell of a lot more, especially with their Sharia, and we all will have no option but to submit as we still live under the present slanted position of Christian precedence and dominance.
    It is highly suggested that we continue secularising our government and all public facilities, especially our schools.
    Secularisation will give us a solid, sensible and logical platform instead of making it look like some sort of absurd religious crusade.
    They will stomp all over us!!

    By secularising, you put a stop to Islam spreading throughout our society. Islam spreads by changing all the laws and traditions, and by force of its clerics (same as the Salem examples of control and fear)
    You would also have the added benefit of the non-religious stopping our continuing efforts to try to eliminate the absurd and unfair inequalities of religious privileges and special exceptions.
    This will not affect your ‘freedom of religion’.

  • Brien

    The Bible is a compendium of fire side tales and fables recounted orally for generations by goat herders and primitive tribes, until writing was invented and then again many different sources and versions were written down.
    There were no grand central universities to organise the many various versions of these origin stories.
    They were for entertainment and to answer the many mysteries of our universe since there was no science yet.
    This is the old Testament.

    The ‘new’ Testes is also hearsay since these letters, ‘gospels’ and stories were written by the loyal faithful, not by objective historians at that particular time, or by any contemporary writers, and written many years after the supposed events of this mythical Jesus. Thus, there is no verifiable evidence of a Jesus.
    Then many of these stories, not all, were compiled by one self-absorbed converted Roman Emperor for his expressed purpose of conquest and control of the people of Europe. He recognised that this was the perfect religion/mythology for domination of the populace. Half the stories were ignored by the Nicean Bishops and none have been proven to be based on fact.
    This ‘Bible’ is backed up by absolutely no facts and evidence.

  • Georgie Franklin

    HA HA See you in court!

    • AustinRocks

      Wear your pink dress.

      • Georgie Franklin

        I look better in red but if you insist.

  • Amos Moses

    California Christians Must Now Register Bibles As Assault Weapons
    May 30, 2017

    • TheLastHonestLawyer

      Stop lying.

      • Amos Moses

        SATIRE …………..

        • TheLastHonestLawyer

          Boy, are you bad at this.

          • Amos Moses

            i can give you $50 so you can buy a sense of humor …..

    • Brien

      As toilet paper – what a waste of trees!

  • NCOriolesFan

    That cross looks so neglected I wouldn’t know it’s a religious symbol.

  • Chet

    Praise the Lord! Good on this mayor and the citizens for daring to be a Daniel and taking a stand for Christ and the Cross. Now, if only all the other timid puppy bureaucrats so threatened would simply follow suit…

  • peanut butter

    We need MORE cities to stand up to these heathens. The cross was there before atheists were bold enough to out themselves because back in those days they might have been taken behind the wood shed. And the FFRF was nowhere to be found in those days or there would have surely been a skirmish about their doings. Kudos to the city of Neosho!

  • Dianne

    I Praise and Thank the Lord Jesus for this wonderful victory. Christians should continue to pray for those who persecute us because of our beliefs. Ex-Atheist make great witnesses for Christ. The son of the late atheist Madalyn Murray O’Hair,
    William J. Murray is a Baptist minister and has written many books in support of Christianity despite his mother’s infamous wickedness.