Atheist Group Stops Church From Handing Out ‘Religious Flyers’ During State-Affiliated Hunter’s Safety Class

LACONIA, N.H. — A prominent professing atheist group that seeks to separate God from government has succeeded in stopping a church from distributing gospel literature and an invitation to Sunday services to attendees of a state-affiliated hunter’s safety class held at the house of worship.

“These proselytizing handouts are supremely insulting to non-Christians and unbelievers,” the Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) wrote to the New Hampshire Fish and Game Department on June 28.

“The State of New Hampshire has no business holding workshops of vital importance to hunting safety that berate attendees as ‘sinners,’ etc,” it said. “Such a misuse of a state function for sectarian, proselytizing purposes is disgraceful.”

The organization states that it was contacted by an individual who attended the class, which was held at Heritage Free Will Baptist Church in Laconia. The training was taught by one of the pastors, and included with the study packet and other hunter’s safety information was a document that provided the ABC’s of salvation, as well as another that invited attendees to Heritage’s Sunday services.

FFRF asserts that the church’s inclusion of the flyers with the class studies violates the Establishment Clause of the U.S. Constitution because it creates the appearance of a government endorsement of religion.

“Allowing churches to distribute their religious literature through a class co-sponsored by New Hampshire Fish and Game constitutes government endorsement and advancement of religion,” it contended in its letter. “It also sends the ancillary message to members of the audience who are non-adherents that ‘they are outsiders, not full members of the political community …'”

FFRF requested that the department investigate the matter and disallow the distribution of religious materials at future classes. It also asked that the state discontinue hosting hunter’s safety training at churches altogether.

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On July 10, Glenn Normandeau, the executive director of the New Hampshire Fish and Game Department, responded to FFRF. He advised that the matter was investigated as requested and that class instructors have been directed not to distribute anything other than what pertains to the training.

“I want to assure you that we do take the complaint seriously, and have confirmed that materials were in fact provided to participants that were unauthorized and outside of the approved curriculum,” Normandeau wrote. “We have taken corrective action in the matter, and are reaffirming with all of our instructors that no materials should be distributed in any class other than those which are part of the approved curriculum.”

He did not mention discontinuing utilizing churches for the class.

FFRF says that it is “thrilled” with the outcome of the situation, which Co-President Dan Barker referred to as a “transgression.”

Christian News Network reached out to Heritage Free Will Baptist Church, but a response was not received.

Noah Webster, known as the Father of American Education, once said, “The moral principles and precepts contained in the Scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws. All the miseries and evils which men suffer from—vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery, and war—proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.”


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  • FoJC

    The ultimate goal of the atheists is to have government sponsored religious discrimination and persecution. Right now, they’re just trying to stop any form of Christian expression as ~they~ relate it to public or government places and activity. As they continue to get government officials to give in to their sectarian demands, they will move forward to the persecution stage.

    Atheists are actively and purposely antichrist. They serve Lucifer directly.

    Follow Jesus, find Wisdom.

    • DKeane123

      So you would be okay with a state sponsored hunting class in Dearborn Michigan handing out information on the seven pillars of Islam? Atheists want the government to remain neutral – not give special privileges to the the religious majority. That is it.

      • bowie1

        No problem. I once was given a paperback booklet by Muslims on Yonge Street in Toronto decades ago. I thought it might be handy in evangelism efforts to look at what they stood for.

        • DKeane123

          Not the same thing. Atheists aren’t concerned with random strangers on the street handing out books. My comment is more in line with a Muslim prayer before town meetings or indoctrination via government sponsored events.

          • bowie1

            Usually such is brief and can be ignored and then it’s on with business. However our Canadian city hall also discontinued saying the Lord’s Prayer when someone complained so now a group will recite the same prayer across from city hall before meetings start.

          • DKeane123

            Excellent – no issue with a pre-meeting gathering that select individuals can participate in.

          • Netizen_James

            That’s great. No official government meeting should have ‘prayer’ as part of the agenda. Government needs to keep it’s clumsy blood-stained hands away from something as important and sacred to people as their religion.

      • dan

        Absolute stupidity of Atheist ,As a free people in America anyone has the right to hand out literature .It free speech .Stupid cannot comprehend this . If you stop one group you stop everyone . Neutral means not interfering in our rights

        • DKeane123

          The government does not have the freedom to endorse or promote a specific religious viewpoint. If the pastor wants to hold a hunting safety class that is unaffiliated with the state – no problem.

        • Ambulance Chaser

          Right. “People” do have that right. The government doesn’t.

        • Etranger

          Yes people have a right to do as you say and FFRF would never stand in the way of them doing it. The difference here of course is that people are attending a state sponsored class and part of the packet they receive includes the religious information. If it were just on the table on your way out (the course was at a church after all), FFRF would have no problem with it of course.

        • Netizen_James

          So when you go to the DMV to update your licence, you’d think it was just fine if the DMV clerk handed you a pamphlet about the Five Pillars of Islam then, right? Or is that somehow ‘different’? Do you think freedom of religion applies only to Christians?

      • FoJC

        The State wasn’t sponsoring it, but, of course not, Islam is a destructive religion that produces and inordinate amount of violence.

        Do you want your daughter’s ~gender identity area~ cut up to keep her from experiencing pleasure during sex with her husband?

        • james blue

          Female circumcision is not an Islamic requirement, Its a cultural thing from certain regions of the world

        • DKeane123

          From the article: “…religious literature through a class co-sponsored by New Hampshire Fish and Game…”

          Why are you bringing genital mutilation into this conversation (a horrible practice)? My point was that the government should not be sponsoring an event that promotes a particular religion. Forget Islam, how about if the government should hand out literature supporting Buddhist or Hindu religions during a town meeting? You just happen to not mind the infraction, because it is your favored religion – and therefore you think it deserves special treatment by the Government.

          • FoJC

            It will be interesting to see the increase of Islam promoting events directly tied to government activities. I am certain people like you will be hush-hush, since you serve the same Devil.

            Follow Jesus, find Truth.

          • DKeane123

            So you have nothing on Dearborn and church state separation issues? I’m all for keeping religion out of government. So if there is an issue, “people like me” would certainly like to hear about it. I wonder what other imaginings you have about “people like me”.

          • FoJC

            I’m not debating. You are debating, and that with yourself.

            Every day, watching people being deceived by the Sin within them, can be distressing. It’s sad that people choose Darkness, but that is the way of the Unbeliever.

            Follow Jesus, find Wisdom.

          • DKeane123

            Thanks. Sounds like your non-response is an end to the discussion.

          • FoJC

            Sounds good.

          • https://disqus.com/home/channel/atheismftw/ Ian Cooper

            It will be interesting to see if you have any evidence for your assertion that the government will be sponsoring Islamic events. Or are you just making it up? If so, your final sentence seems a little ironic. Lying, even for Jesus, is a sin.

          • FoJC

            So, you think I’m Jesus? I should think not, but, if you’re making that assertion, I’m not the Son of God.

            I didn’t say the government is going to sponsor Islamic events. Your kind definitely serves the Devil.

            Good bye.

          • DKeane123

            You devil you….

        • Netizen_James

          It wasn’t doing so knowingly, but by using the class to distribution religious literature, this pastor was violating the contract that he had with the state, and creating the appearance that the State was endorsing this church – that’s not ok, and that’s why the State appropriately put a stop to it after they were informed about it.

        • https://disqus.com/home/channel/atheismftw/ Ian Cooper

          “The State wasn’t sponsoring the religious material distribution”

          Yes it was. If it was happening during the event, the state was sponsoring it.

      • Jason Todd

        Not relevant. The real question is why the FFRF has been silent over the Muslim takeover of Dearborn.

        • DKeane123

          Nice pivot, but I’ll. Bite. What government sponsored religious events are occurring there?

          • Jason Todd

            I didn’t say that. Lame attempt to steer the discussion into a false premise.

          • MarkSebree

            You started it with claiming that there has been a Muslim takeover of Dearborn without offering anything to support it. The claim was completely non-sequitur to the discussion.

            Besides, the FFRF does not go looking for these kinds of things. People report what they perceive as potential violations of the principle of the separation of church and state to the FFRF with the evidence of that violation. The FFRF then investigates and then decides what action, if any, it will take.

          • DKeane123

            Yes, please define what you mean by “takeover”. Is that the same as “lots of Muslims practicing their faith live there.”?

          • Jason Todd

            Google Dearborn and Islam.

            I can find no reason to be more elaborate when you just don’t care in the first place.

          • MarkSebree

            Ergo, you have nothing to actually present to support your claims. You have no cites or respected sources. You only have far right fake news sites which are known for conspiracy theories and spreading hatred and lies.

          • DKeane123

            Gimme your best example.

    • james blue

      Atheists do not believe in the existence of Lucifer

      • FoJC

        The man that fell into the river and drowned didn’t believe in bridges.

        • james blue

          That’s random.

        • DKeane123

          What man? Didn’t catch this in the news. Was he drunk or on drugs? Did he know how to swim? More details please!

    • dan

      The are fools who love their folly .They are much same as Jesus said they are of the father the Devil .

      • https://disqus.com/home/channel/atheismftw/ Ian Cooper

        Matthew 5:22. Congrats – you just ensured yourself a place in Hell.

    • Netizen_James

      No, the goal of the FFRF is to have government STOP promoting ONE set of religious beliefs as the ‘officially correct’ ones. We don’t care about what you do in your churches and homes, we don’t care that the church has ‘Jesus Saves’ on a 30-foot billboard in the middle of downtown.

      When Christians are in the demographic minority in the US (look at the trends, that day is coming, and soon), do you want the government to have the authority to promote reincarnation or polytheism as the ‘officially correct’ spiritual view? No? So ‘do unto others as you would have them do unto you’, and support the effort to make sure government respects EVERYONE’s religious liberty by remaining strictly secular and neutral towards ALL theological perspectives: Promoting none, prohibiting none, endorsing none, enjoining none. Religious liberty necessarily includes freedom from government religion, no matter what form that government religion might take.

      • Jason Todd

        Bull.

        The FFRF’s mission is to remove not just God, but specifically and exclusively God, from the public square.

        We don’t care about what you do in your churches and homes

        As long as Christian speech is restricted to churches and homes. Typical commie talk.

        we don’t care that the church has ‘Jesus Saves’ on a 30-foot billboard in the middle of downtown

        Because there’s no way you can keep that from happening…for now.

        and support the effort to make sure government respects EVERYONE’s religious liberty

        That’s such Brown25 there’s no way you typed that with a straight face.

        • zampogna

          “As long as Christian speech is restricted to churches and homes. Typical commie talk.”

          As far as I know you’re free to set up your soapbox downtown and scream through a bullhorn at passersby your messages of Christian love.

          “Because there’s no way you can keep that from happening…for now.”

          Harold Camping had his very loving Christian billboards telling us about doomsday in 2012. No one demanded they be taken down. Most people were amused. Especially the day after his promised date passed and we were all still here.

          “That’s such Brown25 there’s no way you typed that with a straight face.”

          That’s because it’s primarily Christians so far who are putting up religious structures in public places. Other religious icons from other faiths would come down just as quickly if they went up with the same kind of frequency.

        • Ambulance Chaser

          Perhaps, instead of sneering at everyone, you could present some evidence to support your points?

        • Netizen_James

          “The FFRF’s mission is to remove not just God, but specifically and exclusively God, from the public square.”

          What do you think that even means? What does ‘not just god but specifically and exclusively god’ even mean? And no, perhaps you are just uninformed. You don’t get to decide what FRFF’s mission is. They do. And I’ve characterized that mission this way: “to have government STOP promoting ONE set of religious beliefs as the ‘officially correct’ ones.”.

          If you think that characterization is wrong, you’re going to need some evidence. Can you show ANY evidence that FRFF has ever done anything about any religious expression that was NOT associated with government entities? Can you show ANY evidence that FRFF has ever engaged with any individuals or voluntary associations of individuals regarding their religious expression? If not, then you need to retract your uninformed miss-characterization of FRFF’s mission.

          • Jason Todd

            How do others here know the FFRF favors Islam and yet you don’t?

            If Annie Gaylor came on TV and said she hates Christians and Christianity would your opinion of them be any different?

            As I said elsewhere, all the proof you need is in how they had a fit over a family’s memorial of a loved one.

            They have also tried to get the IRS to monitor sermons at Christian churches, with the intent of punishing Pastors for anything they said the FFRF didn’t like.

            And they had a spaz because the POTUS took his oath of office on a Bible.

            The Freedom From Religion Foundation are anti-Christian bigots. Period. And their mission is NOT in what they say, it’s in what they DO.

            I’ve nothing to retract. Everything I said is a fact.

            Now go back to JoeMyGod.

          • GregorHodge

            “And they had a spaz because the POTUS took his oath of office on a Bible.”

            Shouldn’t YOU be having a spaz about that since your orange president is about as Christian as a box of rocks?

          • Jason Todd

            Hey there! See you got yourself a brand new account! So who were you before?

    • C.T. Dixon

      As an atheist I find it offensive that you say that atheists are antichrist and serve Lucifer. I only serve the Flying Spaghetti Monster. R’amen

      • Jason Todd

        Troll. Flagged.

  • DKeane123

    ““The moral principles and precepts contained in the Scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws.”

    I think this passage should be enforced with due haste!!!:
    “When men fight with one another, and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts, then you shall cut off her hand. Deuteronomy 25:11-12”

  • bowie1

    FFRF-America’s leading red neck organization! Always spreading their own prejudices under the alleged church-state separation excuse.

    • Ambulance Chaser

      No, they bring their actions under the not-alleged-but-actual Establishment Clause.

      • bowie1

        But does it not say that they “may not prohibit the free expression thereof”? And it doesn’t say where and when so far as I know.

        • Ambulance Chaser

          No and no one is saying it does. You can express your religion freely all day if you want, except if you’re a government employee acting in your official capacity.

  • james blue

    I agree with the FFRF on this one.

    As long as the course meets required standards and has qualified instructors, there is no reason a church shouldn’t be allowed to contract for the courses. It should not however be used as an oportunity to sell their product.

    • bowie1

      There is no product to sell, only a message of hope. It costs nothing except perhaps a life of willful sin.

      • james blue

        I would feel the same if they were handing out flyers for a folk music festival. Another poster below asked if we would be happy if the invite was to a mosque? Would you feel the same? How about an invite to the satanic temple?

        • zampogna

          I was just in the middle of typing pretty much that exact sentiment before you beat me to it.

        • bowie1

          I have also such a sign on my home but that’s mostly for commercial sellers trying to sell some electricity contract or some such thing. But if it’s just some brochures handed out in public I may simply toss it in the garbage or blue box. I did that also with the Hare Khrishnas telephone thick book with a psychedelic cover design when they handed one to me in Metro Toronto. Anyway a home owner can simply say no thank you and send them on their way. Flyers could also come in the mail among all the retail flyer packs so you may still be confronted with a church flyer or vacation bible school invite for kids for instance.

          • james blue

            Okay but should a church door knocker heed the sign or do you think it doesn’t apply? I’m not talking about a street, I’m specifically talking about a sign saying no soliciting.

          • bowie1

            I would certainly respect that myself figuring it may be futile to knock on the door anyway. Perhaps I might drop a flyer in the mail and if gets tossed so be it. Most of our telephone thick junk mail goes into the recycle bin anyway from a free twice weekly newspaper and the free Thursday edition of the local daily newspaper.

          • james blue

            So you do consider it soliciting?

      • Sisyphus

        Your “message of hope” is certainly a product. Buyer beware.

      • https://disqus.com/home/channel/atheismftw/ Ian Cooper

        “Love me back or I’ll set you on fire” is not a message of hope. It’s a protection racket.

  • dan

    How about proclaiming the gospel .The gospel not the law it grace .Sadly just a hunch of wimpy Christians then .Myself I have been told no and did it anyway .John and Peter were told not to proclaim the gospel and did it anyway ..I have a freedom of speech .Plus a God given duty to seek and save the lost .

    • bowie1

      But they may have you dragged out which I assume you would be willing to accept?

    • james blue

      They are free to do that, they just have to relinquish state affiliation.

    • Netizen_James

      They are free to refuse the payments of the State to hold this class in their building. But having accepted that contract, they must hold up their end – which includes refraining from using that state contract in order to promote THEIR religion as more ‘officially correct’ than any other belief. Surely you don’t think that being dishonorable in Jesus’ name will be looked at as a good deal by Heaven, do you? Didn’t Saul/Paul also specifically say that governments are established by God, and should therefor be obeyed? (Romans13:1-6)

      • Chet

        A real slick presentation attempting to confound and confuse those who may not know what they believe nor why they believe it. Giants of the faith in God’s Word took a stand at every opportunity to uplift the Lord and face whatever consequences fell out. Check out the three Hebrew children, Moses, John Baptist, Paul and Silas and Daniel for proof. No room nowadays for panty waist believers as the battle’s heating up and the triumphant church of God moves forward in Jesus name. We ought to fear God rather than man… Further, Christianity is all about relationship, relationship one has with God Almighty via the Lord Jesus Christ of Calvary. And beside Him, there is none other… So, we unafraid believers proclaim Christ as His indwelling Holy Spirit leads fearing not those who can destroy the body but cannot destroy the soul…

  • zampogna

    I read the headline, “Atheist Group Stops Church From Handing Out ‘Religious Flyers’ During State-Affiliated Hunter’s Safety Class”, and my first thought was, “Why is a church handing out religious flyers during a state-affiliated hunter’s safety class?”

    • http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/fisherhl Mr. Avatar

      Why did George Washington have prayers before battles or recommend his troops go to church? You atheist have destroyed our heritage.

      • Netizen_James

        Why did George Washington refuse to take the Eucharist? Why was the Treaty which says: “the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion” signed by President Adams after having been ratified by the Senate?

        Why did Thomas Jefferson create his own version of the Gospel story with all the miracles and nonsense left out?

        • Jason Todd

          Why is any of this relevant?

          • https://disqus.com/home/channel/atheismftw/ Ian Cooper

            Because it’s our ACTUAL heritage, rather than the fantasy Christian heritage that Christians seem to think is real. If anyone is destroying our heritage, it’s those who want to force their religion on the rest of us.

      • MarkSebree

        What does that have to do with anything? PRESIDENT Washington never had prayers before battles, nor did he recommend that his troops go to church. That was GENERAL Washington. The roles assumed were very different, and they were operating in different times under different rules. The USA did not exist when he did that, nor did the US Constitution and the prohibition of the government sponsoring and promoting religion.

        Time and place of actions is always important. You need to learn to look at the context in which the supposed action took place.

      • Bob Johnson

        A lovey apocryphal story. The Potts family didn’t even move to Valley Forge until After Washington’s death.

    • Sisyphus

      Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition

    • NCOriolesFan

      Because the class was held on their property.

  • A3Kr0n

    Sometimes I think the FFRF is like the little Dutch Boy with his finger in the dyke. I get their emails every day, and I’m amazed at what a small group in Madison WI can accomplish. They’re really nice people, too! I’ve been a member for many years now.

    • Jason Todd

      Yeah. An organization who gets bent out of shape because a family wishes to honor the memory of a loved one by placing a cross at the site where she died.

      That was nothing but a bleep move. And it removes all doubt what their agenda is.

      • https://disqus.com/home/channel/atheismftw/ Ian Cooper

        “An organization which gets bent out of shape because a family wishes to use their loved one’s death to spit on non-Christians and the US Constitution by illegally placing a cross at the site where she died.”

        Fixed that for you.

        • Jason Todd

          Wow. What a hateful troll.

          Blocked.

          • https://disqus.com/home/channel/atheismftw/ Ian Cooper

            LOL. Oh dear. What a shame. Never mind.

            I’ll try to get over it. Oh wait – I already did.

    • Reason0verhate

      I bet your fingers stink.

  • Netizen_James

    That last paragraph is pure nonsense. The Bible clearly condones and supports Slavery – it explicitly allows slave-owners to beat their slaves, so long as their refrain from murdering their slaves. (yeah, sure, this was better than slave-owners being allowed to murder their slaves with impunity, but it’s still condoning the whole structure and concept of slavery)

    Thomas Jefferson was far more accurate: “The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.”

    • Jason Todd

      Flagged. Troll.

  • sammy13

    On church property attending a class taught by the pastor? Nothing wrong with handing out flyers proclaiming the Good News. Maybe the STATE Fish and Game folks should have picked a better, more secular location for the class and maintained some physical separation of church and state. All this accomplished was to attract the FFRF crowd. As for the so-called non-Christians and unbelievers being insulted, let them speak for themselves on an individual basis. Some may have been saved!

    • DoorknobHead

      A DIFFERENT INTERPRETATION
      Another way to interpret the meaning of “Good News” is “Fake News”. “Let them speak for themselves” could also be interpreted differently as, “Let them paint an Atheist’s scarlet letter ‘A’ on their forehead, so that we might attack an individual who defends a principle found in the Constitution of the United States of America as a group.” It does happen that religious parents will encourage their children to bully and abuse the children of an atheist adult; there are often threats, including death threats, against atheists or secularists, and property damage and other hate filled discrimination against them as well. This can be a legitimate concern, especially since the religious are often very emotionally motivated, delusional and seriously dogmatic, which can be threatening in itself. Finally, another interpretation of “saved” is to be tricked into belief without sound evidence and by the employment of poor methods of thinking which includes teaching countermeasures against critical thinking (thinking deeply about one’s own thinking and the reliability of sources of belief).

    • james blue

      So you’d approve of the state excluding religious groups from engaging in state sponsored contracts?

  • https://disqus.com/home/channel/atheismftw/ Ian Cooper

    Christians are lucky the government doesn’t actively go after people who break the law like this. I mean, what on Earth are they thinking, handing out Christian flyers at a government event?

    • The General

      You trying to act tough and manly, mariquita?

      You can’t pull it off, girl.

  • NCOriolesFan

    If the church sponsored the event, they it has the unimpeded Constitutional right to pass out the flyers regardless who organized the event.

    • MCrow

      I agree. The thing here is that the state sponsored it. The state is not allowed to give money if religious solicitation is involved. If the church does it on their own dime, they can do whatever they want, but state money cannot be earmarked toward something that promotes a specific religion

  • http://TheInvisibleHindu.disqus.com jonbanks

    You attend this class in their church and you don’t want an invite to services then go to another class elsewhere. Really simple. Some people just want something to moan and groan about. This is a prime example

  • Reason2012

    Google public school islam and read from a ton of different sources the growing number of schools teaching islam and FFRF does not care, proving they’re not really atheists, but pro-islam anti-Christian plants attacking Christianity as usual. Continue to preach God’s truth, invite people, leave tracts and more – satan is working overtime in America.

    • DoorknobHead

      POTENTIAL OF SECULAR RELIGIOUS GROUPS AND FFRF WORKING TOGETHER
      When you go the the FFRF website to report violations, make sure they are government and religion non-separation violations, and not fake news, and not private schools or otherwise unrelated to government directly endorsing religion or otherwise not being neutral in regards to religion. Remember that private citizens have freedom of religion, but government does not. Also, you could use any networks you might have to have someone from the area where the violation is taking place be available to file a legal complaint because of legal requirements of standing, etc (but I’m not an expert). Finally, since religions have so much money and people, they might work with FFRF, including monetary support, since FFRF does not have as much money and resources as it has well-established Constitutional law on their side. If these are legitimate complaints, then there is no reason why secular religious groups, that understand the importance of the separation of government and religion for the freedom of religion of private citizens, can not work hand in hand with FFRF to help stop government and religion Constitutional violations.

      • Reason2012

        And yet public schools in greater frequency continue to teach islam and FFRF does nothing. Yes, FFRF is working together with islam to make sure Christianity gets removed as often as possible while islam is flourishing in more and more public schools. Countless articles from countless different news sources prove it.

        • DoorknobHead

          LOOKING FOR AN ENEMY IN A POTENTIAL ALLY
          Not only are you not citing sound sources, understanding basic principles [Christians incidents outnumber other religion incidents because of population differences of religious adherents; the FFRF website has shown it fights transgressions by other religions, including Islam — plus as I mentioned before, limited resources available to FFRF], but you are also promulgating and asserting fake news [FFRF is working together with Islam, against Christianity, for example]. I guess you are not really looking for potential allies, but instead are looking for enemies to disparage and destroy — and that is surely the easier path. Doing a search of “public school Islam” wasn’t convincing either, but if I searched hard enough I surely might find some bona fide incidents, but most of the top hits were counter to the claims made. Yet at the same time I am very worried about Islam, especially since the texts are very political and Islam has proven again and again it may be the worst expression of religion ever created by humankind. Then again, when meshed together with human biases, employing “Seek, and ye shall find” [aka, confirmation bias], if you search enough obviously biased WND articles you may convince yourself Islam is currently a bigger problem than actually is currently in the United States, (not that it won’t be a bigger problem in the future). FFRF could help more if more people team up with it to ensure a secular founded government stays secular instead of working against the founding principles of the United States of America, as they often do, while they instead fight for sectarian inroads into government.

          • TomfromErie j

            DoorknobHead………….
            Professing to become wise they became fools.

          • DoorknobHead

            There, but for the grace of good fortune, I am what I am, and the grace of societal advancement, to me, was not without effect.
            (sung to the tune of Corinthians 15: 8-10)

        • MarkSebree

          Are they proselytizing and trying to convert the children to Islam? Then there is a problem. These are the same actions that get public schools in trouble when they do this with Christianity.

          Are they teaching the children ABOUT Islam, either to provide cultural context for some history such as the crusades, or in relationship to current events, or they are teaching about the religion as part of a comparative religions course? If so, then there is no problem.

          There is a difference between the two. The exact meaning of “teaching Islam” needs to be determined in context.

          • Chet

            And the truth of just whom is the author of eternal life and forgiveness of one’s sins must be proclaimed: “I am The Way, The Truth and The Life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me” John 14:6, Holy Bible…

          • MarkSebree

            Which, of course, is meaningless in actuality. Your religious beliefs do not apply to anyone except yourself. Your opinion, what you are referring to as your “truth”, is completely meaningless in context and it is as disrespectful to the parents of the children as it would be if a teacher was proselytizing Buddhism, Hinduism, or Islam to YOUR children, and telling them that their beliefs were the only valid beliefs and that your beliefs were false beliefs that would endanger their souls and cause them to suffer everlasting torment.

            It is people like you who cause problems for public schools by your insistence on proselytizing to your captive audience of impressionable children. You disrespect those children, their parents, and their beliefs. That is why proselytizing for or against ANY religion is forbidden in any US public school.

            There is a great deal of difference between teaching about a religion and its precepts, and trying to convert children to a religion. The first is allowed, and often necessary, in public schools, especially when it gives context for understanding subject like history. The second is forbidden because it encourages discrimination, bullying, and treats some of the children as second class citizens because of their religion.

          • Chet

            Regardless of his geography or environ, each man has the ability to choose what he believes and why he believes it. And especially so in America, to date. There are no two or three or more ways to eternal life and the bliss of Heaven awaiting one upon one’s snapping out into eternity. Choose wisely, Sir, as the consequences are greater than imaginable for the saved and especially, the lost. That is, those who reject the Christ of Calvary and His free offer of mercy and grace as extended to all us sinners. Know any other god offering such, Mark? Please cite sources and references…

          • MarkSebree

            Again with the logical fallacies. This time a non sequitor appeal to fear, and completely ignoring all other religions, i.e. excluded middle. Only the first two sentences you wrote are actually grounded in reality. Everything else is nothing more than your personal opinion and a lame attempt to try to frighten me.

            You could not support your claims objectively, nor could you show where anything that i said was in any way wrong. Therefore, you try to go in a completely different direction and hope that nobody notices you lack of argument.

            Most religions have some version of heaven. Buddhists have Nirvana and reincarnation. Native American Shamanists have the “Happy Hunting Grounds”. Wiccans have the Summerlands. Asturans have Vahalla. The Greeks had the Elysian Fields. And so on.

            You cannot scare me with your fairy tales. I grew beyond such childish stories 40 years ago.

          • Chet

            What in the world do I have to gain in frightening you? Your position is baseless and without substantive merit. It appears you find much worthiness in the “religions” you list here. Please explain how, in those “religions” one can go about attaining personal forgiveness and how one can be assured of eternal life… And by what authority… I’m interested in learning something here. In that you are above 40 years of age, you are at least halfway through man’s estimated life span. What’s next?

          • MarkSebree

            “What in the world do I have to gain in frightening you?”

            You tell me. You are the one that is trying to frighten me by threatening that I will go to your imaginary hell if I do not subscribe and follow your irrational beliefs.

            “Your position is baseless and without substantive merit. ”

            That better describes your position. After all, you cannot support your desire to attempt to convert captive school aged children to your beliefs, no matter what the beliefs and desires of the children’s parents are, and while you use public funds to do so.

            And as far as your beliefs go, they are not substantially different from any other religion as far as what they are based on, i.e. the imaginings of other people.

            “It appears you find much worthiness in the “religions” you list here.”

            Not really. You asked about other religions having a “heaven”, i.e. a paradise based afterlife. I gave a number of examples.

            “Please explain how, in those “religions” one can go about attaining personal forgiveness and how one can be assured of eternal life… And by what authority.”

            There is no need for scare quotes on the word “religions” as you used them. Every one of them is a valid religion, some with hundreds of millions to over a billion followers worldwide. You are also imposing your own beliefs onto these other religions, and assuming that they all work the same way that your beliefs do. For example, in Buddhism, reincarnation is automatic for most, with what you get reincarnated as being determined by your behavior in your current life. Nirvana is reserved for those that have reached “enlightenment”.

            Every religion has different beliefs and different methods of reaching “paradise”. For some, it is simply leading a good, honest, honorable life. Study those religions if you are genuinely interested.

            “I’m interested in learning something here. In that you are above 40 years of age, you are at least halfway through man’s estimated life span. What’s next?”

            Your question is meaningless. “What next?” in what context?

            The entire point here is that nobody is subject to your beliefs, and you do not have the right to impose your beliefs onto anyone else, particularly when you are using public moneys, and especially when you are trying to do that to school children. That was the topic when you originally replied to me, and you have completely failed to support anything that you have implied to the contrary. Spouting Bible verses does not help your position because that references your beliefs, not reality.

          • Chet

            My beliefs are of no value to anyone other than myself as I’m only a sinner saved by grace. It’s what thus saith the Lord that counts, bottom line. There are no multiple gods and but one way to Heaven. “I am The Way, The Truth and The Life, no man cometh unto the Father but by Me” John 14:6, Holy Bible… I have absolutely nothing to gain should you turn to Christ in faith other than one day seeing you in Heaven and rejoicing together. And I have nothing to lose whatsoever when one rejects the Lord and paves his own way to Hell but wonder, why? Why would one with average intellect and understanding elect to be lost…

    • james blue

      FFRF goes after Islam in schools.

      • Reason2012

        Clearly they do not since the number of cases is growing.

        • james blue

          other than the fact that they do you are correct, they clearly don’t.

    • MCrow

      It’s part of the social studies curriculum in every state I am aware of. Christianity is in there as well, as is Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, and other world religions. They are simply taught as “these are the central beliefs.” Usually a week long module or so

      • Reason2012

        No, Christianity is not being taught like islam is being taught. Read more on it, the articles point out how that is precisely part of the problem.

        • MCrow

          I have continued to read, and all I can find is people objecting to Islam being taught in detail on a lesson unit about the Middle East and North Africa, regions which are currently heavily Islamic. The superintendent noted that religions are tied to region, so Christianity would likely be tied to Europe. My old BoE used to do a week long unit on world religions: literally each got their day. The curriculum board reviewed the claim, and they found it to be unfounded.

          The only other one I could find was a bunch of people up in arms against an anti-bullying campaign focused on not bullying Muslims.

  • Robert

    Just church sponsor it instead ! Its not that difficult to qualify so a member of your church can give hunter safety program and sign the kids cards. if you have a game officer who wants to volunteer their time so much the better.

    • MarkSebree

      As long as it is not done on state funds, and not advertised as being official to the state, then it should be OK. But it would also be a waste of time for all involved since it would not get the attendees what they are their for. However, it does depend on how the applicable laws are written. If the laws are written so that only state approved and sponsored instruction is valid, then your scheme will not work since it would be a waste of everyone’s time.

  • Chet

    They should have stood pat and told the FFRF to go pound sand and get over it. Why, why in the holy name of the Lord Jesus Christ of Calvary are people so afraid of this bunch? Why no modern day Daniel’s to take a stand and watch the hand of God Almighty move in these paper tiger threats? Come on Christians, Stand Up, Stand Up For Jesus Ye Soldiers Of The Cross… Stop buckling at the knees in the face of antagonistic liberal anti God anti Christ adversity only to drop and roll over… Quit you like men… It’s part of your testimony, no…

    • MarkSebree

      The reason that people are “afraid” of the FFRF is because the FFRF has the law on their side, they cite the law in their complaint letters, they cite applicable court cases to show that jurisprudence agrees with them, and they have a record of winning most of their cases.

      It is actually Christians like you that are antagonistic, as you are demonstrating. After all, why should anyone kowtow to your beliefs? Your beliefs only apply to you, and to nobody else. You certainly do not respect anyone else’s beliefs.

      The FFRF is not “anti god” or “anti christ”, they are anti entanglement of government and religion. And they are not a “paper tiger”. They tend to win their cases, and thus rip you to shred with their legal claws. Your “modern day Daniels” tend to get crushed by the reality of the situation.

      And if your testimony is in court, be sure to tell the truth. Lying can get you in trouble there. That is the only testimony that counts.

      • Chet

        Christians have the true and the living God of this universe on their side and He works in divers manner to bring Himself glory and honor and praise.. This entity has no “law” on their side, but, rather, sympathetic liberal judges ruling from the bench via their own agenda of anti God anti Christ discrimination against Christians in far too many occasions…

        No Christian seeks to “kowtow” others to anything, rather, Christians are to follow the Great Commission of the Lord Jesus Christ of Calvary as found in Matthew 28:18-20 and Mark 16:15-16. The hearers have sole right and good purpose to either accept the truth of God or reject same as one’s real ”choice”. Believers need no further authorization from government or man or opposition entity to do so. And no entity nor individual has the power to diminish or otherwise detract from this authority granted Christians via their Lord and Saviour. No one strong enough in his faith to take a stand, i.e., Daniel, John Baptist, others so recorded ever incurs anything harmful unless God so allows it and all of that wisdom and good purpose is within His authority and power. Just as Christ was taken by the Roman authorities and nailed to the Cross of Calvary, God allowed it as it was all in His preordained goodwill and purpose in demonstration of His great love to all us sinners… Let God be true and every man a liar… And oh, the rewards awaiting those who Stand Up, Stand Up For Jesus Ye Soldiers Of The Cross.

        Christians are not to fear not those who kill the body but cannot harm the soul, but, rather, to fear Him who can destroy both the body and soul in Hell… And the persecution of Christians and Jews is routinely occurring around the world. No reason American believers should expect much less, with more sure to come as the nation sinks farther and farther away from God of her forefathers. “The wicked shall be turned into Hell and all the nations that forget God” Psalm 9:17. “I am The Way, The Truth and The Life, no man cometh unto the Father but by Me” John 14:6, Holy Bible. Beside Him (this Holy One of Israel) there is none other… Have a blessed day and please know Jesus saves from the guttermost to the uttermost, no exception, no turn-aways, ever… And God loves you, Sir…