Lutheran ‘Pastor’ Allows Son Who Likes Pink, Female Fashion to ‘Transition’ to Girl

Photo Credit: Facebook/Jamie Bruesehoff

VERNON, N.J. — A pastor of a Lutheran church in New Jersey was recently featured in an online video in which he and his wife told the story of their 10-year-old son, who they have allowed to present as female for the past two years.

Christopher Bruesehoff of Holy Counselor Lutheran Church in Vernon and his wife Jamie state that their son Benjamin, who now goes by the name Rebekah, began showing an interest in pink and sparkles at a young age, and became more discontent with being grouped with the boys.

“Rebekah has always been gender non-conforming,” Jamie states in the video released by Barcroft TV. “As young as two or three she gravitated to typically feminine things. She loved pink and sparkles and all things girly. And that was fine with us.”

By age seven, Benjamin was showing signs of depression and attempted to commit suicide.

“We were faced with a seven-year old kid who wanted to die,” she recalled. “One time she punched out the screen of her second story window and tried to jump out.”

Benjamin went for counseling, and one day, while looking for a gender-neutral swimsuit online, the word “transgender” came up. Jamie explained to Benjamin what it meant, and he replied that maybe that’s what he is.

“I felt like I was a girl because I liked the color pink and I liked girls’ clothes and how they wore their hair and stuff,” Benjamin explained in the video.

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The Bruesehoffs then began allowing Benjamin, who now sports long pink hair and wears skirts and jewelry, to present himself as a girl. They put some of his memories away in a container called the “Benjamin box” as his boyhood was made a thing of the past.

The couple states that the next steps will be to prevent their son from going through puberty since he does not want to be a boy.

“Medically transitioning involves a lot of different stuff and every transgender person chooses their own adventure. For Rebekah, the first steps will be puberty blockers, which will prevent her from going through male puberty and stop her from developing male characteristics—like facial hair, a deeper voice and an Adam’s apple—that are irreversible,” Jamie outlined.

Christopher Bruesehoff, pictured with his son holding a sign reading “I am transgender and God loves me,” says that he worries how the Church will react to his son identifying as a girl.

“Our hopes for Rebekah’s future are that she gets to be who she is as boldly as she wants to be, and that folks are going to accept her for who she is,” he stated. “I’m always worried about reactions with Rebekah, both in the community, the church and the world. I’m very worried about how the world is going to treat her because I see a lot of ugliness in the world.”

While the couple has received messages from Christians who have expressed concern, Jamie Bruesehoff contends that there is nothing wrong with transgenderism and that God created their son to be transgender.

“Yes, my husband is a pastor. In fact, we both have masters degrees from theological institutions. Yes, we both wholeheartedly support our daughter,” she wrote on social media. “No, don’t worry, we’re not concerned we’re going to Hell for doing so, but thank you for your concern.”

“She was created by God. She was fearfully and wonderfully made to be exactly who she is, a transgender child of God,” she asserted.

Heyer

However, not everyone believes that the answer to gender dysphoria is allowing the person to change their physical appearance. Walt Heyer lived as Laura Jensen for eight years and even had a job with the U.S. government while living as a transgender, but says that having a physical operation did nothing to resolve the mental and emotional struggles that he faced.

One day while studying psychology at the University of California, Heyer had an epiphany: He wasn’t a transgender. He was a man with a psychological problem that trying to live as a woman wasn’t going to fix. Heyer also learned that his answer wasn’t within himself; it was in Christ.

So, eight years after obtaining the operation, Heyer reverted back to living as a man, and now says he doesn’t believe that people are born transgender.

“Gender dysphoria is a psychological condition where you are dissatisfied with your gender,” he told the Daily Mail in 2015. “Nobody’s ever born a transgender. They’re manufactured as a result of something, a developmental childhood issue that has yet to be determined for many people. In retrospect, I can see that changing genders, quite frankly is just pure foolishness.”

Heyer says that those who struggle with the condition are not receiving proper care, and many medical professionals are too quick to agree to surgery.

“All of them have some level of depression, and we’re not treating them,” he lamented. “We’re just cutting off body parts and giving them a new name and a new gender. … [But] biologically, no one can transport to the other gender. It’s not even possible.”

The now 76-year-old man runs a website to compassionately help others who struggle with gender identity or are expressing regret over having a sex change operation.

“God designed man; He designed women,” he said in a video recorded in 2014. “God will redeem the lives of people who struggle with gender identity issues just like I did. He redeemed my life, and I’ve been free from it as a result of that.”


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  • Oboehner

    God loves him as he made him, a boy.

    • mr goody two shoes

      God made more girls than boys . its more logical than to say he loves girls more.

      • Oboehner

        That argument could go either way, God made more girls BECAUSE he loves boys more. I seriously doubt that God does much in the vein of favoritism.

        • zampogna

          “One of the things that is a classic trope of the religious bigot, is while they’re denying people their rights, they claim that their rights are being denied. While they are persecuting people, they claim to be persecuted. While they are behaving colossally offensively, they claim to be the offended party.”

          – Salman Rushdie

    • zampogna

      Guess God makes mistakes, then, huh?

  • mr goody two shoes

    That type of Lutheran pastor would be just fine with allowing Southern baptist at the communion rail or allowing the head of a southern baptist seminary to give a sermon from his church Pulpit.

    • Sisyphus

      Tell that to the others here that will argue Christianity is not a subjective interpretation of reality. You just happen to know the correct version right?

  • Jerome Horwitz

    Child abuse. End of story.

    • Ambulance Chaser

      Based on what authority? Because the mental health community disagrees with you.

      • Jerome Horwitz

        I do not need “authority” to know what I see with my own two eyes. And the mental health community is no longer of value, as they have become vehicles for political activism.

        • Ambulance Chaser

          So, then, you can’t support your position. Got it, thanks.

          • Jerome Horwitz

            Not an argument.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Just so you don’t lose the narrative here, you made an assertion, and I asked you to back it up. You refused, saying you don’t need to.

            I’m still waiting for you to back up your claim.

          • Jerome Horwitz

            No, you didn’t. You wanted me to appeal to authority, something I don’t have to do.

            By your logic, if I see someone repeatedly punching a toddler in the face, I need to first seek someone with an alphabet soup after their name and have them say, yes, this toddler is being punched in the face, and, yes, it’s abusive, before I can say so.

            The stupid burns.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            You misunderstand what an “appeal to authority” is. It’s not citing someone who has ample evidence to support their claim. Appeal to authority is stating that “X position must be true, because a person with qualifications and wide esteem says it is,” REGARDLESS of whether that person has evidence or not.

            I’m asking you for evidence. I don’t care whose research you cite, or how acclaimed their name is. I want to see what proof they have. I would even accept your own research, if it were performed to scientific standards.

          • Sisyphus

            Logical rigor has absolutely no place in this paradigm.

          • Jerome Horwitz

            The proof is in what I see.

            No research required.

            If that’s not good enough for you, then I’m glad. Your standards leave something to be desired.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Okay, so what did you see?

          • Jerome Horwitz

            I saw a boy being deliberately raised as a girl. That’s child abuse. Case closed.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i have always been a Jonathan Harris fan …. lol ………

        • zampogna

          Um, yes you DO need authority, especially when your two eyes are so myopic they imagine conspiracy theories involving the science world.

          • Jerome Horwitz

            If you hold credence in a profession that both condones and promotes the sexual abuse of children, I can assure you the problem isn’t with my eyes. In fact, if you’re stating for the record you tolerate the physical, mental, emotional or sexual abuse of children in any way, you are deranged and should not be allowed outside of an institution for the criminally insane.

          • zampogna

            If you think there is ANY “profession” out there that condones and promotes the sexual abuse of children, then you’re not of perfectly sound mind.

          • Jerome Horwitz

            Stifle it.

            We have the American Psychiatric Association with “B4-U-ACT” and their “accidental” reclassification of pedophilia as a sexual orientation in the DSM. We have the American Psychological Association and the Rind study.

            I do not believe in coincidences.

            In fact, if you’re stating for the record you tolerate the physical, mental, emotional or sexual abuse of children in any way,

            I find it interesting you did not deny this…and rather disturbing.

          • zampogna

            What’s interesting to me is that you continually zero in on the APA and ignore all the other organizations in complete agreement with them, such as:

            American Medical Association
            American Academy of Pediatrics
            American Counselling Association
            American Psychological Association
            American Psychiatric Association
            American Psychoanalytic Association
            American School Health Association
            National Association of Social Workers
            National Education Association
            American Association of School Administrators
            Pan American Health Organization
            American Organization for Marriage and Family Therapy
            American College of Physicians
            Just the Facts Coalition

            So even if all the conspiracy theories you want to believe about the APA are miraculously found to be true, which they WON’T be, you still have all these groups to contend with.

            Incidentally, you might be interested to know that B4-U-Act is all about preventing acts of child abuse. You oppose this? Why?

          • Jerome Horwitz

            1) You are still dodging.

            2) I mentioned the American Psychiatric Association. And I question any organization that says doing this to kids is okay.

            3) False. Judith Reisman and Matt Barber attended a B4U-Act conference in Baltimore in 2011 that addressed removing the stigma of pedophilia, which included having it reclassified. And that’s what happened. “Accidentally.”

          • zampogna

            Matthew, there is no dodge here. If you would like to present me with a single line from the RIND study that recommends people, ANY people, to allow the sexual abuse of children on a grand scale, please provide it, but we both know you cannot do that. It doesn’t matter what happens to the “stigma”, what happens with the law is ultimately what matters. And there is simply no group in existence that will allow that to happen. And you KNOW this. And that INCLUDES the APA.

          • Jerome Horwitz

            1) What do you know, or think you know, about the Rind study?

            2) You have no idea what you are talking about. None.

          • zampogna

            What I know about the Rind study is that there is nothing in it that suggests pedophilia is going to made legal. And it never will. Someone initially dared to suggest that pedophilia was something that couldn’t be helped and you took that and ran with it – for all your usual self-serving reasons. But you missed the biggest point of all – no matter what it suggested, the abuse of children was NEVER on the table. AND YOU KNOW THIS Matthew.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “A story we agree to tell each other over and over until we forget it’s a lie.”

            thats all they have …..

          • zampogna

            And all those scientific facts and studies and findings that keep getting in the way, what a drag, eh?

        • NCOriolesFan

          and tools for humanistic propaganda.

      • Roy D Carlson

        Christ’s authority – and his authority supersedes any authority of man which is tarnished by sin and evil.

        • Ambulance Chaser

          Why?

    • zampogna

      End your own story.

    • disqus_ExUluNTTRl

      You are correct. Not only legal child abuse taken to a public level, but demonic. The highest Authority on that is God.

  • Sisyphus

    Where, exactly, in your book of fables is the color pink specified as a color of female gender?

    • Amos Moses – He>i

      it is not … 1. a book of fables and again you have no scientific proof of that …. and 2. the word “pink” is not in the bible …. it is a cultural thing …. and it goes to show how the world … devoid of any truth standard has been given over ….. and this “pastor” needs some real church discipline ………..

  • meamsane

    Since the vast majority of children grow out of this, these parents should not be so quick to want to block this kids development!! So who’s in charge? The parents or the kid?

    • mr goody two shoes

      How else would these two goof balls get in the news? People are tired of hearing about elca queer preachers.

  • mr goody two shoes

    Its so Easy to diagnose the problem with Benjamin just using the Augsburg confessions and this dad thinks he a Lutheran pastor . I would like to see where his theological degrees come from. Most like!y a cracker jacks box.

    • RWH

      Yes. I am familiar with ELC or ELS. In order to stay in favor with the church officials, these parents would have had to disown their own children. You pension or your children? Your job security or your children? In the long run, parents who reject their children are the big losers.

  • mr goody two shoes

    Its all BS this story ..I Looked the church up. Just as I thought .The goof ball is a Elca preacher. You can not trust what a lot of them say . They go out of their way to prove liberal unchristian ideas . I would bet the trurh is he is responsible for the way his kid thinks . When christian news net finds a confessional Lutheran pastor with a kid with this problem let me know. You won’t find one all you will find is goofball preachers from elca that come up with this stuff.

    • NCOriolesFan

      The ELCA is a heretic denomination from the original teachings of Martin Luther much like all mainline denominations have become. No wonder the evangelical line of Christianity is growing like weeds. People want Jesus, not lies from the devil.

  • Amos Moses – He>i

    So interesting how we went from homomarriage 2 years ago … to trans-whatever (really trans-EVERYTHING) without skipping a beat ….. not a slippery slope …. a cliff … and we are accelerating ….. express elevator …. GOING DOWN …………..

  • Nidalap

    Munchausen by Proxy…

  • Faithwalker

    The Bible makes it perfectly clear that we all are born as sinners who are in need of a Saviour…which is Jesus Christ.

  • SeaHawk68

    In the 1970’s there was an outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and during this time I received Jesus as my Savior. At that time hundreds, if not thousands who were homosexuals received the Holy Spirit and they were set free from this spirit. Bro. Baker was the name of the gentleman who discipled us and he was a former homosexual. God tell us through his Scriptures what lifestyles are not acceptable. If people do not like the Scriptures of their God, then they should not call themselves “Christians” followers of Jesus the Christ. Romans Chapter 1 and Leviticus 18 clearly tells us what our Creator detests and if we love Him we will repent and do His will. His power can transform us and give us a new mind like I Corinthians 5:17 tells us. Lots of false shepherds are rising up at this time in history. Read about the false shepherds in Ezekiel 38.

    • RWH

      On the other hand, there is the testimony from people like the Rev. Mel White who went through a lot of treatments and found that he could not pray the gay away. A significant number of ex-ex gays can testify to this as well. We don’t know a whole lot about sexual orientation, but even the ones that claim that they are healed are honest enough not to enter into marriage and admit that the feelings have not gone away. They just struggle to be celibate. Mike Paulk was the poster child of the ex-gay movement–until he was caught in a gay bar in Washington DC. He is now married to his male love. The founders of Exodus International is another example of people who have repudiated this idea of healing.

      • wandakate

        The apparently if they can’t get these thoughts out of their mind then they are mental issues and they are NOT physical at all. A person that stops smoking cigarettes after many years still may think about smoking but that doesn’t mean they HAVE TO start it again…
        Sin isn’t really sin until we act on that sin. Thinking about it and refraining from it isn’t good, but it’s not a real SIN.
        No matter what our sin is, if we are still living in that sin when JESUS has His glorious appearing in the clouds with all of His heavenly angels then it’s over, as we will die in our sins. It will be too late to confess them.
        We can save ourselves by confessing, repenting and forsaking them before it’s too late. When JESUS appears or when we die then it’s too late for anything at that point in time.

    • disqus_ExUluNTTRl

      Absolutely correct.

    • Roy D Carlson

      So for those other periods of time when the Spirit isn’t “outpouring Himself”, the people are just screwed? Let me offer you another possibility: The Holy Spirit has been pouring Himself out upon the Church since Christ ascended. Everytime a person is baptized, confesses his faith, confesses his sins, attends church – the Holy Spirit is pouring Himself out. This whole evangelical/pentecostal idea that the Spirit picks years and eras to pour out…not supported by Scripture.

      • SeaHawk68

        I just came in during a time in history where being “born again” was an experience that many were talking about during the 1970´s. Perhaps there was a lot of fervent prayer going on. I know a lot of people close to my age that came during the 1970’s. God’s Holy Spirit can still deliver a person from a sexual perversion spirit (doesn’t have to be homosexual only), but anything that is addicting and is causing us to sin at any time and any place. I don’t think these people who keep returning to their sins have really repented. We can’t continue to flirt with sin and we have to be extremely serious regarding turning around from our sins whatever the strongholds were. Seriously I know several people who were involved in homosexual relationships and are married today to the opposite sex and have been free for many decades.

        • Roy D Carlson

          You know, homosexuality isn’t the only sin in the world. When I went to school (also went to a Concordia, not Portland), students were engaged in premarital sex. Other students would drive 40 miles to the local wet college, and drink and party.

          This is worldwide. There is not one university, Christian or otherwise, that does not struggle with sins. The difference here is the condoning of one particular type of sin on account of the culture around them fighting tooth and nail to make homosexuality and all aspects of gender confounding.

          And you’re right, living in unrepentant sin is living outside of faith and there is no salvation where there is no faith. One can struggle with sin, be repentant and still struggle, but to live unrepentantly is to call Christ a liar and to slander God’s Holy Name.

    • wandakate

      YES, and we accept many things that are NOT Christian, and are NOT anything that GOD approves of.
      Our worldly, traditional pagan holidays are something that He doesn’t approve of. Easter, Christmas, Halloween, ALL pagan holidays. We were told NOT to DO as the heathens and pagans had done.
      The changing of the ten commandments and deleted the ones that didn’t fit snugly into our lifestyles is another one.
      We are living in the a new world so to speak of man’s ways and laws, instead of GOD’s ways and GOD’s laws of which we no longer want anything to do with.
      We are a sinful wicked people. We can put GOD on the back burner of our lives. We are self-centered and wants our own needs met and catered to. We care about SELF, and not GOD or others. We were told to LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF, we were told that “WE ARE OUR BROTHER’S KEEPER”. We were told to ‘DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU”. However we’ve apparently forgotten all these things and just want to change the rules and do it all our own way.
      IF these parents really knew JESUS they would have “never” let this happen to this child (ONLY A CHILD), not an adult.
      Children are not rational, and do NOT have the capability of making adult decisions until they are around 20-21 yrs. of age, and this child was “ONLY” 7 years old. Something is wrong.
      And if when he becomes an adult he changes his mind, then what? The damage would be irreversible.

  • cadcoke5

    “puberty blockers, which will prevent her from going through male puberty and stop her from developing male characteristics—…—that are irreversible,” Jamie outlined.

    He negates the fact that they are doing something that is irreversible. If this boy every heals from the emotional problem that makes him think he is female, or perhaps he simply reads the bible and believes God’s word, he will not be happy with what was done to him. Then he will find that his parents and the doctors did something horrible to him.

    In the U.S. there was a time when boys with mental limitations or emotional problems were sometimes castrated with the idea that this would make them more manageable as they got older. That practice is now illegal. It seems that we are returning to this horrible practice.

  • NCOriolesFan

    God sure as heck did NOT create emotionally, sexual and mentally screwed up people. These disorders are all manifestations of the devil. These confused people need Jesus to straighten them out.

    • Bob Johnson

      “Only 7 years old and wanting to commit suicide – seriously?”

      Yes, four children out of every 500,000 below the age of 12 actually do commit suicide. Not just talk about it but actually are dead.

    • wandakate

      YES amen! Not pink colors, or different clothing or jewelry or acceptance agreeing that they are a girl when they are in all TRUTH a BOY!!! These parents have made a HUGE mistake with this precious child in allowing him to be what he (at that moment) thought he was.
      He would probably have grown up to be a find young man except for all the confusion that was not taken care of at his young age. A 7 yr. old telling you that he’s a girl and not a boy. NO I think the parents should have told him differently, you are a boy that may like girls things right now, and that’s certainly okay, but you are STILL a BOY and you will be fine as you grow up and mature you will become a fine loveable young man that GOD has made and that we love dearly…Let kids be kids and do kid stuff, and when they are adults they will know what they desire, but not at the ripe old age of 7.
      GOD forbid.

  • K. E.

    Have these parents explained to their child he will never be able to have children? That these ‘puberty blockers’ will make him infertile and will also stunt brain growth development that takes place during puberty? This is child abuse. Let the boy be what he wants to be, but let him develop as God intended him to develop…I don’t understand why doctors are allowing this kind of abuse before a child has had a chance to grow up and go through maturity.

  • Mr Cleats

    This pastor belongs to the ELCA, the most liberal of the Lutheran denominations.

    In the year 2009, the ELCA voted to ordain homosexuals. In the following 2 years, they lost 500,000 members – yep, a half-million members in just 2 yrs, an unprecedented loss in any Christian denominations.

    The lefties have worked diligently to drive the Christians away, and they have succeeded.

    As for this pastor: He is guilty of child abuse. If the ELCA had any principles – and clearly they don’t – they would inform him that continuing with this child abuse would result in his being defrocked.

    • Bob Johnson

      In 2015 the ELCA had over 3.7 million members. . So yes, when the church decided to ordain homosexuals it lost 12 percent of its members. Or, in other words, 88 percent of the church had little or no problem with the new church doctrine.

      • Mr Cleats

        Spin it all you want to.

        Fact is, pro-gay churches are on their way to extinction. Funny thing about those “inclusive” churches, no one wants to be included.

        • RWH

          And I know of a lot of conservative churches that are on the point of extinction because they were great on legalism and small on compassion.

          • Mr Cleats

            Pro-gay churches are ALL dying.

            Don’t argue with facts, you’ll only look silly.

          • RWH

            I sincerely believe that your facts are nothing but opinions. Churches rise and fall on a number of issues. Churches have been hemorrhaging numbers for the past 50 years, and there is plenty published about the decline before gays became the issue. Three decades ago, the green-eyed monster was women’s ordination. Now, minds are pretty much made up. Then it presumably was churches that went to “contemporary” worship with praise bands and all that. Now, the big monster happens to be the gays. A big problem is our population shift. People move out of the big cities, and churches wither away and close. I am also aware of a number of fundamentalist churches that have also closed. And if higher education is any indicator, five fundamentalist colleges have shut their doors within the past five years. One of the schools had thousands. Even Bob Jones University has shrunk. Conservatives aren’t doing a whole lot better.

            Again, people’s minds have petty much been made up, but the culture is shifting, and the younger generations are not as obsessed with gays as are the older generations.

          • wandakate

            Why is the younger generation not as obsessed with gays as the older generation?????
            Simply b/c this is what is programmed and indoctrinated into their young minds at an early age. PLEASE self, be a “me” person, If it feels good, do it. There are NO absolutes. What was always wrong is now all the sudden RIGHT, and what was right all along for centuries is now all the sided WRONG!
            Today’s kids are raised with that mentality. They know about technology and the likes, they know about homosexuals and gays and all their agenda, they know about new age, they know about voodoo and witchcraft and sorcery (think Harry Potter), and they know about being self-centered. They know all about many things that the older generations didn’t know about.
            They know about the New World Order, about EMP’s and the One World Government, as well as the One World Religion and the up and coming “cashless” society. They know b/c it’s what they are growing up with. In 5 more years they won’t be thinking anything about gays b/c it will be so “normalized” by then, they won’t give it a second thought as to whether it’s right or wrong. They is why they are being indoctrinated with it today, so tomorrow they won’t really care about it one way or the other.
            Don’t you think that’s what the LGBTQ community is striving for? Total acceptance of this lifestyle be it right or wrong, that is the goal here, the ultimate agenda.

          • dennis

            The number I have seen for 2016 show 700 failed churches, over 500 of them conservative. Somewhat unfair comparison since the number of “conservative” is so much greater (for now) one would expect such a slanted result. But it is true that more “conservative” churches are failing each year, that are “progressive” churches.

          • dennis

            But you are presenting alternative facts and expecting us to believe them. No, you have it backwards.

          • Roy D Carlson

            Your understanding of compassion leaves something to be desired. What is compassionate about lying to someone and telling them that God is a-okay with sleeping with the same sex, or changing your gender? Is it not more compassionate and loving to be honest with people, to tell them the truth in accordance with what Scripture teaches, call them to repentance, and then forgive their sins? For the ELCA, they don’t even worry about sin – they don’t even want to talk about it. Repentance is optional in the ELCA, and only for those thoughts, words, and deeds you accept as sin. All the rest, even if God calls sin, is just free expression of one’s personal life.

          • RWH

            Christ got in the most hot water because he showed compassion to people that the Pharisees crossed off. I would rather err on the side of compassion than to be a judgmental busybody who inserts himself into other people’s affairs. You know nothing about this pastor, but you are ready to condemn him on the most bare of facts. I also don’t think that you have a clue as to what goes on in ELCA churches. I have played organ for a number of them and have never noticed this cavalier attitude toward repentance that you seem so sure of. Perhaps you should talk to God about your hard heart.

          • Roy D Carlson

            I see, so I don’t know anything about the ELCA churches, but you know about my heart. Funny.

            I DO know a thing or two about ELCA churches. I know the method of their biblical interpretation which allows them to do things like ordain women as pastors, ordain gays, perform gay marriages, etc. For the ELCA, the Bible is NOT the infallible Word of God, but the Bible “contains” the Word of God, and how this is determined has more to do with the culture around them than the basic principle of “let scripture interpret scripture”.

            I also know that most laypeople in the ELCA churches are more or less like laypeople in other churches. They know enough about their denomination to say “I’m Lutheran” or “I go to church”, but beyond that they don’t care. You don’t see the “cavalier attitude toward repentance” in ELCA churches because most people don’t think about the doctrine taught. They just like the music, the hymns, the comfortable pews, and the nice pastor. Ask them about church doctrine, and they say “that’s for pastors and teachers; not for me.”

            You throw around the word “judgmental” but you don’t know what it means. God WILL judge the living and the dead on the Last Day. I am simply saying what St. Paul has written time and again, that “Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality (homosexuality), idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

            Is it wrong of to convict people of their sin and call them to repent and believe in Christ? Or did Christ die just to affirm everyone in their sin so that they can continue to live enslaved to the evil one and to their own flesh? Being truthful in a loving way doesn’t mean affirming sin – it means being frank and honest with the Law of God for the sake of love, so that all people come to the knowledge of the truth and hate their sin. This is truly loving, and it is exactly what Christ did when he forgave the prostitute and said “go and sin no more”. He did say “ah, prostitution isn’t that bad, I affirm you”, no, he called it sin, and forgave her of it when she repented.

          • RWH

            Your responses remind me of the old saying “Idle hands are the Devil’s workshop.” Don’t you have anything better to do than to tear down other people and their churches? One of the reasons why the “none” movement is growing is a revulsion at all of the negativity they find from so-called devout church members.

          • Roy D Carlson

            Untrue. Studies into the “none” movement is far more involved than what you’re suggesting. Ultimately, the “nones” exist because churches have not been true to their authority. Many have left the church because the church tries so hard to pander to them, to change their music, their “style”, their purpose, and they lose their identity in the process. A church without an identity is no church, but just another failing business.

            The Baby Boomers are actually the ones who insisting that the only way to grow the church is to pander to culture. You won’t find too many gen-Xers (like myself) who insist on contemporary worship or watered-down theology. We want authenticity, honesty, and consistency, and the gen-Yers (where a majority of the “nones” come from don’t come to church because they don’t see what genX wants. The Baby Boomers and early gen-Xers (before my time) haven’t learned their lesson yet. Once the boomers die off and my generation becomes the patriarchs of the church (15 to 20 more years), then the church will go back to being the church and get off of this “follow the culture” kick. How I long for that day, because that’s when the nones will finally come to church.

          • RWH

            Again, don’t you have anything better to do than to tear others down?

          • Roy D Carlson

            And by responding in this way, you’re doing the very same thing. Quit moralizing.

          • dennis

            In my opinion you need something positive in your life Roy, you sound so darn depressed. Just my sense from reading your words. You and appear to want others to share in your great sadness. Get out, get some sun, go to the beach and play with a kid.

          • Roy D Carlson

            You know nothing.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Yes, this makes perfect sense. People are leaving churches en masse because those churches try too hard to make them happy and satisfied. I’m sure people will return in droves the minute churches start being cruel and heartless to them again.

            In other news, people are no longer watching TV and movies because they’re far too entertaining these days. Also, restaurant attendance is dropping because the food tastes too good and people have stopped going to concerts because they like the music too much.

          • MamaBearly

            so do you believe in the end days? I kind of see signs that are indicating those things that Jesus warned us about.
            Do you really think the world will still be around in 15 or 20 years?

          • Roy D Carlson

            Jesus told His disciples, who were alive while He walked the earth, to look for these signs. and in fact, there have been “wars and rumors of wars” and other signs since Christ, and even before.

            Christ told us that only the Father knows the time of the final judgment. So what I conclude from this is that we can’t and won’t know the time of His return until the moment it happens AND that we ought to ALWAYS be ready for His return and doing what He has taught us.

          • MamaBearly

            Yes we are to be ready always, but Jesus specified what the signs are for us to know. We are to Stay still, Wait, and Trust in the Lord Jesus and that it won’t be too much longer when we see the signs.
            If Jesus had not pointed out the signs HIMSELF as a warning “to us” then I might agree with you, but he has warned us not just to get ready for when he comes but to Trust Him while we wait, so we do not lose our faith and give up. We have to be strong not to fail during these times, and keep the faith, and keep the Trust in Jesus while you go through the times and not give up when it gets difficult. That is why Jesus warned us, so we would not give up when all seems lost. We must Wait for him, Trust in Him to take care of us during the harder times to come, and be strong against the ways the Devil will try to persuade you to give up.
            We don’t know the exact moment that Jesus will come, but he told us that these signs will show before the time can happen.
            Otherwise, really, why would he have been so specific with the disasters etc if it was ‘just’ to tell us to be ready. The signs are there to tell us and to remind us to stay in our faith, and don’t give up on Jesus because he won’t give up on you.

          • Roy D Carlson

            You’re not hearing me.

            The signs that Jesus speaks of have been with us for as long as man walked the earth! The specific disasters, the earthquakes, all of it, has always been with us, since the fall.

            But you ARE right, that we must be ready and comforted in His Word and His promises alone, even when mountains are falling before us and nations rise and wane. That’s right out of the Psalms. This is the whole point of Jesus’ warning! The disciples were looking for much more specific signs, but Jesus gave them everything they needed to stand firm until the end. He DID warn them of their own impending doom, when their lives would be taken from them for confessing the Gospel. And St. John warned the churches of his time (AD 90 and before) of the immediate and continued persecution from the Roman Empire, but that God would bring it to an end.

            But ultimately, Christ’s “signs” were pointing to all time, not to a time 2000 years later. How do I know? Because St. Paul believed that Christ’s return was imminent due to the “signs”, as have many believers throughout the ages on account of the “signs”. And even when the Last Day didn’t come, still, they did not waver in faith or a bold confession. Sadly, today, so many in the Church have walked away from bold and consistent confession, but would rather compromise and walk with one foot in the world. This whole article is damning evidence of that. The early church fathers would NEVER allow a pastor to do this to his child – it would have been met with excommunication and worse.

          • MamaBearly

            I am sorry, but I have no authority to take the child away and neither do you. It’s not for us to repent for the man, it’s for him to be upset about disobeying God and to repent.
            There is nothing we can do except pray for the Pastor to see his errors and pray for the boy to change before it is too late for him.
            Praying works when we believe, and when we are praying for somebody else as long as it is not a selfish reason for praying.
            People who are going against God’s word need prayers not nasty words about his behaviour. Pray for them. And remember the love Jesus told us to show to all.
            As far as the end times being repeated over through the years, I know that, but from what I could tell, there was always something missing from what Jesus told us to watch for too.
            Maybe we should watch and wait to see if all of those things come true.
            God can do anything. More than you can ever think or imagine. Neither of us can know whether these are the signs for sure until it’s a lot more obvious than it is.

          • wandakate

            Tell it like it really is and thank you for doing so! When they know the real TRUTH, the TRUTH will set them free in the word. Life is nothing but a spiritual battle between the forces of GOOD and the forces of EVIL and where we stand will determine our fate for eternity.
            These churches seem to believe that anything goes as long as it’s not going to upset me or bother me or change my way of doing things.
            JESUS said, “IF you love me, keep my commandments”.
            I believe the Catholics, the Anglicans, the Episcopal Church, and the Lutherans all have the same doctrine or very similar ones thus they all see out of the same glasses, they’re all on the same page.
            Guess it all boils down to doing things Man’s way and “not” GOD’s way. ONLY the ones obeying GOD will make it into the coming Kingdom.

          • MamaBearly

            I find it interesting that you left out Baptists and the Pentecostals; I believe you mentioned that you were one of those religions?
            I’ll tell you how some are going to miss the train to Salvation. By not letting themselves love everyone. By not treating everyone the same as you want to be treated.
            Treating people who need to hear the gospel with anything but love is not the way Jesus told us to behave. Compassion was always shown to the sinners when Jesus dealt with them. He didn’t yell he spoke calmly and told her not to sin again. If he had raised his voice they would have made it obvious to us.
            The way you talk about people who are different is not showing any love at all. Don’t tell me you hate the sin and love the sinner, because if that were true, you would not be so hateful in your posts.
            Ask God to clean your heart because right now it has evil in it. Hate is darkness. Don’t stay in the darkness for people we already know will be condemned.
            Tell them about Salvation, and repentance, Jesus’ love and the offer of Eternal Life and then if they do not accept it, leave them alone. Don’t keep hounding them to repent. Jesus never acted the way you people are acting, oh no he didn’t. We are supposed to reflect Jesus not give Jesus a bad reputation because you act with hate and he is not like you.
            LOVE EVERYONE. NO exceptions. Care for them enough to make sure they know the whole Salvation, then do not be on them about it again. Love them, care for them. Treat them the way you want to be treated which I expect is with respect. They are not less worthy than you and deserve the respect of being a Person. I’m not asking you to approve of the sex as that is against God’s Law, but I do ask you if you think denying anyone Equal Rights is right to do to ANYONE?
            I’ll guarantee that Jesus would never deny that.
            Look yourself over for the sins you are committing here, and ask Jesus to put his love in your heart (again?)
            Blessings!

          • wandakate

            I’m not a Baptist or a Pentecostal. I was raised a Baptist but am not affiliated with them anymore.
            I think you judged me unfairly. I don’t have “hate” in my heart for anyone. I don’t see my comments as hateful, just honest and to the point…
            We are ALL different, and we ALL think differently. I will trust GOD to change me if that’s what I need, and also to be my judge and not you.
            However, thank you for your advise b/c I know you must mean well.
            Also I did not mention them along with the rest b/c their doctrine isn’t the same as the others that I listed which are much more similar to one another.

          • MamaBearly

            I appreciate your respect and understanding. I do try to speak God’s Word.

            You see the gays should not be denied all those thing that are Human Rights – the same rights that the Black people were given – because of a sin (marriage) that relies on the sin of homosexuality before it can be done.
            God isn’t going to punish them 2 times in hell.

            Seriously. The sin of marriage between two people of the same sex, which is totally reliant on the two people being homosexuals. So the way I look at it, is that Jesus would want everyone to have equal rights and when someone is already doomed to Hell and would count it as one sin with homosexuality, just
            so the People would have the necessities of life. He would not want any to suffer for their sin here on earth.

            No one deserves to be treated badly for their sin, If it is not done with love, it is not done for God. Do you honestly realize what people do to gays every day to hurt them one way or another. Denying them food and housing based on a sin, is an abomination.

            Is a secondary sin more important to Jesus than the lives of people that could still be saved as the scriptures tell us.

            Look at that law they passed and look at everything else they allow the gays now.
            Do you honestly feel that the things that they stood up for are not more to Jesus than a sin that couldn’t happen without another sin first.

            They need to be treated well. It is Jesus’ commandments. People of the world do not get punished for their sins, until Judgement day. We are supposed to encourage not hurt or frighten, we are supposed to love them even as sinners because we are all sinners.

            Our job isn’t to destroy their lives, it’s to bring them to Jesus.

            Tell me, have you ever known a gay person knowing it was a gay person? Like
            someone you might have had to work with without choice, and they turned out to be really nice loving people and more often than not, in a safe place, they are also joyful and want to spread their joy.

            Everyone I have spoken to about gays has said the same thing and that they have
            also never met a gay who was rude or nasty unless they have been treated that
            way – usually recently – and feel justified because of someone else’s hatred. Especially
            if they were Christians who treated them badly, if they know no other Christians to see the difference in how we show our lights. They are on the defensive. Talking to them calmly will get a sinner to calm down and God willing, they will listen. and Believe. and be saved.

            Treating anyone with anything less that the way Jesus would treat them is against his Word. Think about it and you will realize that what I say is true. You won’t know any more than I do how to solve the whole issue of
            Equal Rights without agreeing to the marriage.

            I just hope you see the sense in not really regarding marriage as a second sin as it cannot happen without the first sin.
            What would Jesus do, in this situation?

          • wandakate

            MamaBearly…With all due respect you are repeating yourself over and over in your comments, and I honestly do “get” what you’ve been saying but I have ran out of comments in regards to all of your comments, b/c I don’t see any point in me repeating myself.
            We all know how you feel about “equality”, but sin is still sin. GOD hates sin. Sin will be punished. We are to witness to them and testify to them when the opportunity presents itself and then leave it to them to make their own decisions and leave it up to JESUS CHRIST to do the final judging.
            I don’t really have anymore comments to make on this topic as I have actually said all that I need to say and wish to move on to comments about other things.
            Blessings…

          • dennis

            “What is compassionate about lying to someone and telling them that God is a-okay rather than the truthful God is a myth.”

            Right on Roy, you said it best.

          • MamaBearly

            Each to their own, please don’t rain on our beliefs, and we won’t rain on yours, how’s that?
            We believe that you are taking a big chance by denying God in any way, so we actually feel sad for people like you because you are lost and we pray that Jesus will allow you to one day hear the gospel with understanding and knowledge so you too can feel His love, and to be a receiver of all his blessings and promises. It gives us true peace and Joy and gives us a calm when we are having any problems. There is nothing like knowing that Jesus loves you. Hope you feel it one day!
            Blessings!

          • Roy D Carlson

            The Christian faith isn’t about “Jesus loves you”. This is the first and fundamental problem I think with it all.

            On the one hand, yes, God loves us, but this cliché means nothing if you don’t speak it within the context of all of God’s attributes.

            What does it mean that Jesus loves us?
            What does it mean that Jesus loves us but still says “many are called but few are chosen”?
            What does it mean when Jesus, in His parable, says that, in the judgment, the wheat will be saved but the chaff will be thrown in unquenchable fire?
            What does it mean when Jesus says that He will judge between the sheep and the goats, and that the goats will be condemned forever?

            What does it mean what St. Paul writes, “by works of the law no one will be saved”?

            What does it mean when St. Peter preaches, in Acts 2, “Repent and be baptized every one of you for the forgiveness of sins…”?

            What does it mean when Jesus says “For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality (which is the Greek word for homosexuality), envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person”?

            What does all of this mean if we are to just “mind our own business” and “Jesus loves you”?

            Quit following the lies of the world and the devil, repent and believe in the words of Christ, or perish!

          • MamaBearly

            I didn’t say to just mind your own business – I specifically said that our duty is to spread the gospel and that is what will make a person believe and ask for repentance of sin. Then we are to mind our own business because they know about Jesus’ offer and they must choose on their own whether to follow him or not. If they don’t we mind our business and pray that someone else will be able to reach them because you didn’t.
            But you don’t treat them badly ever. That is what I am objecting about – Jesus would not want us to treat sinners badly no matter what the sin, especially since they are all equal when it comes to punishment.
            Christians need to TALK to them about the gospel. Not just “Jesus loves you you are a sinner repent or Jesus won’t forgive you” because they need to know the whole Truth and not be offended by your behaviour when you are dealing with them.
            If they think Jesus is about Hate they are very wrong.
            You want to know in what way Jesus loves me? Agape love;
            Highest love, Unconditional, Self – sacrificial, Have at
            heart the welfare + best interest of the object loved.

            I don’t have to believe what you believe; I believe what Jesus told us to do and to be like and in every way, he wants us to love everyone. Anything else is less than he wants from us. Yes he shows other kinds of love in the gospel, but it is with the Agape love that he loves us. It’s pretty obvious when you look at the word, Unconditional, or even self- sacrificial, and that last part is not just how Jesus feels about us, but he wants us to show the same love to others.

            I’m afraid the Devil would not be telling everyone about how Jesus loves everyone or about salvation at all. He doesn’t want anyone to have salvation. and since I can deliver his word here, I can also correct the people who are not understanding the way God intended us to. All I can do is point out your mistakes about Jesus’ love and about how to behave like Jesus to everyone to make people see the goodness of Christians and be interested in following Jesus and that will bring Glory to God in the Highest.
            I suggest you be careful who you point the finger at about being the devil. Make sure you read more than just about the things you disagree on, If someone is spreading the gospel and love, I doubt very much they are of the devil no matter how you see things in a different way. The devil does not use scripture without twisting it and he certainly does not talk positively about how Jesus loves us. So try to discern the enemy apart from the believers, ok?

            It’s up to you whether you read the gospel to find the Truth of my words.

            Why do you think that we can do anything at all to change someone’s mind about following Jesus and repenting, when you treat them as lesser beings than yourself? Put yourself in their shoes and be mistreated the way they are before you think you are following Jesus. I’m getting tired of supposed christians being hateful to homosexuals because it’s the only sin that they can harass about because no one else has had to reveal their sin so they can have the same rights as everyone else. The way to help them is with true love and caring and wanting to treat them like we want to be treated.

            Do you just forget Jesus’ commandments when they aren’t convenient?

          • MamaBearly

            What does it mean that Jesus loves us?

            You mean you don’t feel Jesus’ love every minute, every day? Oh, Well, uh, I’m sorry.

            What does it mean that Jesus loves us but still says
            “many are called but few are chosen”?

            Many are called is speaking of the Saints, and few are chosen are the ones that did not show all the things that Jesus told us to have in our lives. Compassion, love, caring, doing for the love, and not expecting anything in return. Be blind to colour and to treat others of other denominations well and do not harass each other.

            What does it mean when Jesus, in His parable, says that, in the judgment, the wheat will be saved but the chaff will be thrown in
            unquenchable fire?

            What does it mean when Jesus says that He will judge between the sheep and the goats, and that the goats will be condemned forever?</blockquote

            If you do not understand these things that Jesus spoke about, you should keep reading and ask Jesus for more understanding of the scriptures.

            Why are you asking about Judgement day when I referred to the living God loving us; Jesus

            We know about judgement day because God wants us to remember not to sin, just like repentance of sin is also a reminder every time we fail. With constant reminders in our lives, we are less likely to forget and slip into sin.

            What happens on Judgement day is no business of ours – we have no ability to change anything once it is judgment day – and neither does anyone else.

            Stick to the duty that Jesus gave us to do. Spread the gospel, teach about repentance and Salvation, and pray the people will choose to follow Jesus.

            Jesus never told us to be nasty, he told us to always show love to everyone.

            TALKING to a sinner about Salvation with repentance IS love, so they can hear everything and desire to repent for Jesus.

            Doing anything more than that is just plain abuse of other human beings and the Lord will not be happy. He didn’t even want them to abuse slaves, and these people are potential believers.

            What does it mean what St. Paul writes, “by works of the law no one will be saved”?
            What does it mean when St. Peter preaches, in Acts 2, “Repent and be baptized every one of you for the forgiveness of sins…”?

            It is by grace that we receive forgiveness when we repent of our sin. And I never said ONCE that I disagreed with repentance for sin. Because I trust God and that is what he wants.

            God told us to forgive as your father has forgiven you.
            Forgiveness is important to Jesus too,

            As I’m sure I’ve said, I do not say the sin of Homosexuality has changed, and the Lord has made it a sin I know that means hell. I follow my Lord Jesus and trust him.

            What I’m saying is because Jesus told us that love covers a multitude of sin, do you think that is directed at those of us who follow Jesus and repent for our sins? We should not have any sins because we are to repent frequently for our sins.

            Do you really think anyone who does not deserve to go to hell, won’t be justified by the amount of love that Jesus can see? He wants all to come to salvation.

            What does it mean when Jesus says “For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality (which is the Greek word for homosexuality), envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person”? What does all of this mean if we are to just “mind our own business” and “Jesus loves you”?

            Mark 7: 20- 23
            20And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.

            21For from within, out of the heart of men,
            proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

            22Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

            23All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

            I’ll gladly explain what the things that are evil, that come from
            the heart.

            All those things are sins that show evil in the persons’ heart.

            If the person has acted with love most often, the sin will be
            covered by the love, by Jesus. He will judge
            Righteously and be Just. If the love covers a multitude of sin, that
            means that that heart will be lit with the light of love, and not the darkness
            of evil. He doesn’t look at the outside he looks at our heart. We can’t do
            that, so we have no right to condemn anyone. Only Jesus can do that. He never
            gave us the authority to be judge, jury and jailer for anyone. Even judging
            that we are allowed to do is strictly to identify a sin and help the person to see it.

            Try to look at Jesus and how much he loved us.

            Look and see the scriptures that tell us that most sins are covered
            by the commandment to love one another.

            Yes Jesus wants us to tell people of Salvation by repentance and
            that Jesus loves all of us, and is offering Eternal life to people who want to
            believe that there is Eternal Life.

            Jesus knows people are not going to follow him.

            He told us they too would be punished in hell.

            Jesus knew that some men and women would be gay,

            He told us they too would be punished in hell.

            Jesus knew that people would get divorced.

            He told us they would be punished in Hell.

            Murderers, Rapists all the other sins, which are also punishable by
            the law of the land will be punished in hell.

            There is no differences in those sins. None. Except you now can
            identify more people who are gay. So now you think that it is ok to harass them
            about their sin. And you honestly feel in your heart that it is ok to not
            harass some people for their sins, but it is ok for others?

            Jesus did not tell us to do anything more than talk to people. That’s
            all. They need to be told about Salvation or they won’t consider repenting to
            be needed.

            Harassing gays for their sin is not what Jesus meant when he said
            to tell people about their sin.

            He was telling us to encourage others – (everyone is a sinner) – to
            come to Jesus, that they want to repent for their sins, and are then saved.

            He did not ever say that you should gang up on them in a public
            place to humiliate and shame them about their sin.

            He told us to tell them to repent, but He knew without the rest of
            the salvation story, it is a waste of our time. No one will understand the
            importance of repentance if they do not understand the hope of salvation, and
            about the offer of Eternal Life. They need to be talked to, not threatened with
            the punishment. They need to know that there is a reason and a hope for
            changing how they think.

            Being treating anyone badly by someone that calls themselves Christian,
            is fooling themselves if they think Jesus would approve of it.

          • Roy D Carlson

            Jesus’ forgiveness doesn’t negate the horribleness of sin. Look WHY is sin sinful? Because of some arbitrary thing? Is it just definition or concept? No. Sin is utterly destructive to faith and to our relationship with God. This is why, when Christ died, he died for the sins of the world. Because the only way that man could be returned to unity with God was in Christ’s atoning sacrifice. It was a HEAVY price to pay – the death of God’s only son – that your sin and my sin could be forgiven.

            When people are flaunting their sins around and pretending that they’re moral or somehow doing good, it isn’t just hurting those people, but it’s hurting everyone. That’s the nature of sin. Sin destroys faith, and this ELCA pastor who is letting the world decide for him God’s will rather than just listening to God, he is not only hurting himself, his daughter, but also his church. St. Paul would say “cast the immoral brother out!”

            Now, as far as your comment about “feeling Jesus….” find for me one passage in Scripture that talks about “feeling Jesus.” This whole notion of “feeling Jesus” and experiences with Jesus and all of that is a product of late 19th century and early 20th century romanticism and pietism. It is NOT a part of the orthodox teachings of the church.

            Faith isn’t a feeling. Faith is an unwavering trust and confidence in the death and resurrection of Christ for my salvation. We aren’t saved by “feeling Jesus”; we’re saved by God’s grace through faith in His atoning work. This is FACT, not “feeling”.

          • MamaBearly

            You are not reading my posts at all, are you. Another one that reads up to the first thing you disagree with? Please read to the bottom of this one. Thanks in advance!

            You are welcome to believe what you believe as I do.

            Jesus is love. you just can’t understand complete unconditional self-sacrificing love that Jesus did for the love of the people to die for their sins.

            I have some questions for you ok?
            Would Jesus deny someone a place to live because of their sin?

            Would Jesus deny someone food and medicine because of their sin?
            I’m sorry but the love that Jesus has for all of us would not deny anyone things like that. Maybe you don’t realize how badly gays are treated?
            Like having to go a couple of miles to another town to be able to buy groceries. Do you think Jesus would approve of that punishment for their sin?

            How about being able to rent a big enough place for the whole family, and be told no because 2 people of the 6 were gay? Do you think Jesus would agree with denying them a place to live because of their sin.

            Try thinking like Jesus and read the gospel and look at the love Jesus shows. Do you think love would have compassion if it was not a “feeling” kind of love. Do you think showing the pain by crying at Lazarus’ death, and his sister’s pain, was showing anything but the love that is caused by emotion.

            How about this, it’s a simple thing to do that Jesus commanded us to do that you can’t deny or disagree with. And that is:
            Jesus wants us to love everyone and treat everyone the way we want to be treated.

            Those two things that Jesus made clear in his Ministry should be able to be the final word, because it was his final word.

            Try reading the gospel and ask for understanding about Jesus’ love.

            The whole point is that Jesus is the one that is in charge, whether it is what satan does, or what He does, Jesus is in Control

            But all Jesus wants us to do is to love and to be good to everyone. He’ll deal with the sin and the punishments when the time comes, and he really wants us to repent of our sins because they are a reminder not to sin. That is why repentance is so important, he does not want people who sin in heaven, but he has given us grace to forgive our sins that we repent for.

            You can deny the kind of love that Jesus was showing us, but I can’t. It is just too obvious to me. Yes there was an emotional love that the human side of Jesus showed by example that we should follow.

            I’m starting to wonder if you know …
            Do you know about the light that shines to Give God the Glory?
            That would make a difference.,

          • MamaBearly

            First of all I have never said that repentance of sin is not necessary, what I said was that Jesus pointed out that we were to tell them about their sin. but Jesus did not tell us to bully sinners, without ever talking to them about the gospel. Jesus was not a bully in any way. Why are you?
            I am willing to bet that bullying anyone ever brought them to repent.
            I’ll give you two scriptures that Jesus told us to do that is all about Agape love the Greek word that means self sacrificial, Unconditional and of the Highest Love.

            One is the second commandment, and the other is what most of us grew up with called the Golden Rule.

            Love everyone and treat each other the way you want to be treated.

            Does that not tell you that God wants us to love each other considering that is the commandment?

            What kind of love do you think God meant when he told us that commandment to love everyone?

            Why do you think that sinners of homosexuality as well as those that marry against God’s Word are any worse than any other sin, when they will all be punished once for all of them, not for each sin they do?

            Do you go to divorce court and bully them about making a mockery of God’s marriage by divorcing ** especially if it be by adultery and fornication**. So do you spend a good amount of time with them too?

            Thanks! Blessings!

          • Roy D Carlson

            All sin is equally sinful in God’s eyes. If we go after our kids for stealing, we do it because we DO love them. If we let them steal or we don’t discipline them, we aren’t truly loving.

            Homosexuality is sinful. We can, no we MUST love the homosexual by being honest with him. Love takes no delight in evil but rejoices in the truth. Thus if we are not truthful, we are not loving.

            I’m not saying that we have to immediately expel homosexuals from the church. St. Paul insisted that the immoral brother be expelled because the church wouldn’t deal with the situation and it had festered into something far worse. But what I AM saying is that it needs to be dealt with BY the Church.

            There may be a person struggling with a certain sin who is a member of your church. Avoiding the discussion with him is as sinful as his own sin. Praying for him is great and salutary. But helping him and restoring him to faith and repentance is ultimately WHY we have a fellowship of believers and not individual believers all to themselves.

            From what I read, I interpret your words as saying that we should just let the homosexuals be, let them live in their sin and not try to bring them into a right relationship with God and God’s children. Well, this is wrong, and not loving. Instead we ought to teach, pray, teach, and teach all the more that homosexuality is sinful, and that God calls all sinners (not just homosexuals) to repent and believe.

            And yes, if I caught a person fornicating or belittling marriage, sleeping around, or engaging in sexual sin outside of marriage, I, as their pastor, would pull them aside and have a frank discussion as well. If they are repentant, they will thank me and ask for help. If they are unrepentant, they may leave the church. This has been the way of the Church since the beginning; why should it be any different now? The repentant cling to Christ and His grace and the unrepentant belittle His gifts and flee. What else is new? But in the church, instead of bending over backwards to accommodate and affirm the unrepentant, we should be seeking to uplift and uphold the repentant. This is Law and Gospel teaching 101.

          • MamaBearly

            The first thing I want to point out is that you have not been reading my posts or you would not have repeated what I have said. So read this one please and even reread it so you are sure you understand what I am saying, which is basically what you are saying here in the first place. I went through what you said in an attempt to make understanding for everyone who reads this.

            Please read what I write before you reply to me, I’d appreciate it and show you the same curtesy. Thank you.

            All sin is equally sinful in God’s eyes. If we go after our kids for stealing, we do it because we DO love them. If we let them steal or we don’t discipline them, we
            aren’t truly loving.</blockquote
            When I found out that one of the kids my son was hanging around was shoplifting, I discussed it with him (who also is the one who initially told me about) and he agreed that it was not right to do that. I told him to stand outside if he knew that his friend was going to steal because he would be detained with his friend otherwise when the
            kid got caught.
            I did not tell him not to hang around him, I told him that he had to make the choice whether he wanted to be good friends with someone like that, and he hung with him for maybe 2 weeks and dropped him of his own accord.
            By not getting into my son’s face about the people he was hanging around with, I taught him what he had to look at to make choices all of his life that are right not wrong, and to decide whether having a friend is worth going against personal morals or not.
            I wasn’t Christian then. But helping my own and other children grow into independent adults was one of the main lessons that was taught to them. They can’t remain dependent of us, or they will fail when they are away from us.

            If we are of faith when we have children, they should be taught right from wrong too.
            And they should learn how to grow as people, not as someone in a box.
            Jesus wanted us to grown in faith, and helps us to do that, and we need to help our children learn that we have a reason to be faithful and trust God, or they will not remain in their faith, no matter how the world is presented to them.
            It’s up to us, the faithful to act like good people to draw others to look and listen about Jesus. We have to show tolerance, and long suffer sometimes to allow people to be different In Some ways, but if our children do not remain in Jesus when they are old enough to resist, then the parent did not model themselves as Christians around their children and they watched and saw that they aren’t always behaving or talking like Jesus, so why should they?

            Many Christians are Pew Christians that listen and leave without having a change between them coming to Service and when they leave because their mind really isn’t on what is being said, but they think because they are there, they are Christians, even though it takes more to be a Christian than just attending Church. That often means they do not act like Christians outside of church: like swearing and stealing from their offices as if that is stealing that is Ok to do. They are the ones that will not make it into heaven regardless of them attending Church because they have the wrong attitude towards our duty that Jesus gave us to do.

            Homosexuality is sinful. We can, no we MUST love the homosexual by being honest with him. Love takes no delight in evil but rejoices in the truth. Thus if we are not truthful, we are not loving.

            You don’t read my posts as you are saying what I said. I repeatedly said we were supposed to TALK to them, what I am objecting to is the way they bully people who reject the idea of salvation. When someone has actually been told the whole Salvation plan, and decides to reject it, we are not supposed to harass them about it. That is what Christians are calling love, and that is what I point out as something Jesus would
            not agree with. Jesus would not want Christians to bully or to harass someone about their choice. He did not send anyone after all the disciples to try to get them to come back. He knew that they knew about the consequences and that they chose not to trust him even though they had seen him do miracles and listened to his ministry.

            He was telling us that some of the Christians will doubt and leave the faith, even knowing that with refusal comes ‘death’.

            That is also why I say that the Christians that want to show their love for any sinners, to help them overcome, would not be helping if they are hounded after they were given the whole story of salvation. Once they know they can choose and it’s their choice, not ours.

            Again, people often change from knowing and sinning anyway, because of something in their lives that opens a better understanding and realization that they were wrong to walk away, so they return to a church. There are many reasons why people choose to go to church at any point of their lives. Including homosexuals.

            I’m not saying that we have to immediately expel homosexuals from the church. St. Paul insisted that the immoral brother be expelled because the church wouldn’t deal with the situation and it had festered into something far worse. But what I AM saying is that it needs to be dealt with BY the Church.

            I agree with that when it is immoral brethren, that one person should attempt to talk to them, then if that does not help, 3 people should discuss it with him, and then it should be taken to the whole church, if that person still wants to be a Christian.

            I am not going against God when I support the Equal Rights of sinners who happen to have the sin of homosexuality, and actually, I support Equal Rights for every human being no matter what sin they have done, unless they are taken away as punishment by the law of the land.

            That is my whole reason for standing up for the sinners. They are human beings too, and are even potential believers and we don’t know their future which is why we should not condemn someone while they are alive. On top of that, we are all sinners, what right do we have to judge someone as if they are never going to repent? We don’t,
            because we can’t know.

            I’m There may be a person struggling with a certain sin who is a member of your church. Avoiding the discussion with him is as sinful as his own sin. Praying for him is great and salutary. But helping him and restoring him to faith and repentance is
            ultimately WHY we have a fellowship of believers and not individual believers all to themselves.

            I know others of faith that don’t have good experiences with Churches that are more faithful than some of the ones that do go to Church. Whether we need fellowship or not is up to each of us. If a church is not teaching the gospel correctly, they should leave, and they should hope to find one that is not contradicting God’s Word. But if there is not a Church near to them that isn’t as bad, then they have to be alone, except by internet possibly.

            Again, you are talking about people within the church and I’m talking about people that are more likely to not be associated with a church, although some churches will accept them. I believe those churches are going by Jesus’ instructions in a way. They are allowing homosexuals into the house of worship, because that is where you begin
            to believe more in the power and the Word of the Lord. As it should be. It gives the homosexuals even more than just giving them the story of Salvation does, and it is truly love that is behind allowing them in. Anyone who is alive, is loved by God and he wants all to come to salvation by repentance. It is not until they have passed that they will be truly judged for their sin.

            Just not following Jesus is a sin all to itself. So why do we have to make more emphasis on the homosexuals? Ironically, I don’t think the way the world is reacting to them standing up for the right to marry and other simpler Equal Rights, is because
            they were not given the rights in the first place. Since it was supposedly a
            Christian basis for the American way of life, why didn’t they have the rights first and separate the marriage from those rights? They had to go so far as to confess to something they knew people hated them for. Do you think that did not take a lot of abuse and a lot of anger before they went to that extent?

            I’m From what I read, I interpret your words as saying that we should just let the homosexuals be, let them live in their sin and not try to bring them into a right
            relationship with God and God’s children. Well, this is wrong, and not loving.
            Instead we ought to teach, pray, teach, and teach all the more that homosexuality is sinful, and that God calls all sinners (not just homosexuals) to repent and believe.

            I don’t understand why you would think that I am saying anything less than that, if you read my whole post. Please reread my post and see what I posted before to confirm this is what I always say.

            I believe that homosexuality is a sin, because I trust God and he says it is. Ok so this is
            new: I have faith that he knows everything and can make something a sin by having more wisdom and knowledge than we could ever have. He is above us too far to be able to understand His thoughts.

            The thing I also say is that it is the way that homosexuals learn about the story of salvation that is wrong. Unless we sit down with them we cannot be sure that they know about salvation with
            repentance and what it offers them.

            All I hear is “God loves You”, “You are a sinner” and “You will go to hell” sometimes they add to that “if you don’t repent” because I suppose they are trying to reach a whole group of sinners all at once, but it doesn’t have the fact that there is Eternal Life, or truly anything About Jesus’ love, even though we are there to tell them what they have to do. It is not going to help them decide to follow Jesus and know his love, rather than think God is a hateful God that just hates them and doesn’t want them to be alive . They have to learn about God’s goodness and love, or what would encourage them to listen, and become believers? The things that Christians yell at these events like I have heard so many times, will actually discourage discussion about Salvation, and what repentance is about, including forgiveness of their sin.

            I believe in God and I have experienced his hand in my life without question. In fact, many of the posts I make are with his leading me, and words put in a way I have never thought of them, until I see what I write. I am trying to get people to read the Gospel and recognize the love that Jesus had for us and wants us to have for everyone, including sinners. Yes he wants them to turn to him and repent, but he still taught that everyone should be treated well by everyone, and he did not make exceptions. But he also made it clear in his Word that people would walk away and as long as we have tried to talk to them, we need to leave them to their choice. Constantly telling the same people the same thing, especially the way the Christians tell them, won’t encourage them in any way. It is only by hearing the Word of God and what he is offering us that people will come to him. Even coming to church because of an experience that put God into a life, does not mean they will not decide to reject his
            offer and leave the faith, whether they are encouraged or not.

            And yes, if I caught a person fornicating or belittling marriage, sleeping around, or engaging in sexual sin outside of marriage, I, as their pastor, would pull them aside and have a frank discussion as well. If they are repentant, they will
            thank me and ask for help. If they are unrepentant, they may leave the church.
            This has been the way of the Church since the beginning; why should it be any
            different now? The repentant cling to Christ and His grace and the unrepentant
            belittle His gifts and flee. What else is new? But in the church, instead of bending over backwards to accommodate and affirm the unrepentant, we should be seeking to uplift and uphold the repentant. This is Law and Gospel teaching 101.

            The whole question to that is exactly how do you find out something like that about anyone, especially someone not in the church.

            Unless someone comes up to you and tells you which is listening to gossip and believing it without confirmation, or unless that person is telling you in confidence, and with that, you can’t even take it to the church because you are a Pastor.

            One of my best friends is my Pastor. We have discussed his duties as much as about the Word of God and how to use it in my life today. He’s been an amazing teacher that I believe God lead me to.

            The repentant cling to Christ and His grace and the unrepentant belittle His gifts and flee.

            Please tell me how people who are homosexual are belittling His gifts? All they do is not believe in God, they aren’t openly belittling it. Not unless they are defending themselves from the Christian Bullies.

            Most I suspect do not want to listen to people who tell them they will go to hell in the first place.

            So as a Pastor, you believe that because they are sinners, without even putting a specific ‘sin” in that place, because we are all sinners.

            You believe that Jesus would agree with treating them badly because they are sinners and won’t /don’t know about what repentance is.

            You believe ANYONE should be treated badly for their sin, and you are not in any way loving them. Talking kindly and showing you care to someone, preferably alone, is the ONLY way anyone should be treated if you follow Jesus.

            I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt because I’m finding a lot of people are not aware of these things. I wasn’t until I asked. Somehow I can’t see many Christians asking a gay person about their lives, as that would not be about saving them.

            Do you believe that someone should not be allowed to live somewhere because of their sin?
            How about making someone go miles away to buy food and medicine, because they are sinners?

            Do you believe that Jesus would deny anyone Equal Rights to have the basic Human necessities?
            I don’t.

            That is why I argue with people about the treatment of gays; they are being abused all the time for being sinners and Jesus would never have agreed with that abuse, especially for their sin.

            They are refused services because of their sin. Not just restaurant services, but plumbing and housing problems. Jesus would not agree with that kind of treatment for anyone.

            They have to go miles away to buy simple groceries because of their sin. It doesn’t matter if it is formula for a friend’s baby, they will still be told to go away.

            I asked them about the problems they are having caused by “Christians” and this is only some of the abuse they told me about. I find there is no wonder they act hateful towards us, because they have experienced hate towards them.

            It’s not just about the marriage which is a sin reliant on the sin of homosexuality.

            It’s about the other things that everyone else has the right to do/have, that someone else thinks that Jesus would tell them to deny serving them?

            Serving them in no way supports their sin. Unless allowing them to live is what is wrong.

            If Jesus said that we are supposed to punish anyone, I would like to see the scriptures that tell us that (other than the law of the land). Do you think he told those Hebrews that the ones without sin is the first to cast the stone as an casual reply? He was teaching us a lesson about not having any right to punish someone for their sin. So I
            have challenged people who seem to dismiss the Equal Rights issue to show me
            where Jesus told us to punish people for their sin.

            As for their behaviour hurting others, if we are strong in our faith, they should not be a problem. If we stay away from the ways of the world in our faith, we should not have a problem.

            Sin is always in front of us in the World, and we have to resist the temptations of sin – knowing right from wrong is taught by all parents, not just heterosexual or parents of faith.

            That is the basis of what sin is, choosing right from wrong. How is it wrong for people to love a child, who still teach the same things we teach, including tolerance for people who are different, and sharing. We don’t teach our kids about sex, why do you think it
            would be out in the open for anyone. It’s a private things to them too. But because people treat them like dung, they needed to stand up for themselves to be allowed services just like everyone else. If they had already had Equal Rights, you would not have seen the amount standing up for them. No one should be denied Equal Rights and if you think it is right to deny Equal Rights because of someone’s sin, then you are not anything like my Pastor who would be standing for the equal rights of them,
            even while not supporting the way they have sex. That is also what I believe Jesus
            would want us to do.

            I have enjoyed the discussion and I hope you can now understand my reason for supporting People in their quest for Equal Rights. I do not support their sin, and I do not believe that giving them Equal rights will affect as many people as you expect it to, other than those who are already living with sin in their lives. If we can reach out and help them see and believe that Christ was a loving God, that wants to offer the same thing to them as he does to everyone, people will turn to God, but the way Christians are always complaining (another sin) is not going to help them see our lights.

            Complaining does nothing, and is a sin. He wants us to do something, not just complain. That ‘something’ is spreading the gospel and letting others see how happy we are as followers of Jesus. Complaining and harassing people does nothing to spread the true Gospel. We can’t ignore what Jesus told us about the behaviour desired for a Christian that follows him. Some of those complaining and being present at any event for gays, are giving Jesus a bad reputation. He wants us to shine, not tell them things that are in the darkness without the opposite (light) showing to take away the darkness. .

          • Roy D Carlson

            You’re right, I’m not reading your posts carefully. I don’t have time, and it takes away from other things for me to read and post here. Right now I should be working on a sermon.

            What I’m gleaning from your post is this: That we shouldn’t treat people badly, or “bully” people because they are obstinate.

            This is fine. We shouldn’t bully people whether they’re believers or not.

            And I’m really not hitting on those who bully or treat others with meanness or hatefulness. That is NEVER right.

            I’m talking more specifically about the following, which the ELCA, as a doctrine and a general practice of the theologians in the ELCA, fail at:

            1) Redefining sin and making sin more subjective in nature than objective. In other words, if someone doesn’t like that homosexuality is sinful, just ignoring that fact that it IS sinful.

            2) Using the word “love” wrongly. In other words, making love equal to universal acceptance and embracing of all sinful acts of thought, word, and deed, and not speaking and showing TRUE love through honesty, and speaking God’s Word without worrying about how others receive it.

            3) Reading Scripture subjectively, and supporting the “what does this mean TO ME” mentality where subjectivity, feelings, and opinions trump truth, fact, and God’s desires. True Lutheranism (and the true Christian religion says “what does this mean FOR me).

            4) Trying to affirm homosexuality as a natural, beautiful, and godly act even though God condemns it and it goes outside of His order of creation (man and woman becoming one flesh) and justifying the affirmation by calling Scripture archaic, outdated, racist, bigoted, or just wrong.

            I’m not necessarily accusing YOU of any of this, but the ELCA and any “Christian” sect that thinks this way. Yes, we are to love the sinners, but loving the sinners doesn’t mean ignoring the fact that they ARE sinners or lying to them and telling them God’s alright with them sinning. Woman pastors, homosexuality, abortion, transgenderism, stealing, cheating, adultery, lying….it’s sin – all sin. And yes, Christ has died on the cross for the forgiveness OF our sins, but His death is not an excuse TO sin (Romans 6), but because of His loving sacrifice and faith, we have the Spirit-given strength to fight sin.

          • Roy D Carlson

            I’m not finding where you’ve quoted me from, but from how I read the quote – it’s not a quote, but a liberal tactic of misquoting and spin-doctoring. Dishonesty and deception won’t get you anywhere in this life or the next.

          • MamaBearly

            Actually, you should forgive his sins first. You can’t go up and tell them you are a sinner and you are going to hell, you have to give the whole plan of salvation, or it is like you told them nothing.
            Jesus said to tell people about the gospel, ie. The plan of Salvation by repentance, and about Jesus’ Love and his offer of Eternal Life, because if they don’t hear the whole thing, they can’t be expected to repent unless they know the whole thing. Each part of the offer of Salvation has to be told or it isn’t the Truth that Jesus told us to give to the people of the World.
            Some Christians seem to think that hounding random homosexuals will get them to come to Jesus. It’s sad actually, because they are not treating them well, and that is disobeying Jesus.
            Your doctrine is different than my church’s but I have heard of your doctrine before. God told me to look at whether they are reading the Gospel and tell random people about their error’s in what they say here.
            Personally, I think homosexuals are people first with Jesus and they are still his children while on earth, for it is when the people die that they can’t change their mind to follow him, but they have that chance up to the end. Then it’s up to Jesus.
            Jesus told us to love everyone and I’m trying to spread the word to remind Christians of that. He wants us to show compassion and caring towards everyone. Sinners will hear the gospel and choose for themselves whether to believe and follow. Once the sinner has the ability to make a decision, we leave them to it, unless they say they want to repent for Jesus.
            Equal Rights is not about the sex the homosexuals have, so it is not about their sin that people are treating them badly everywhere.
            People should try to look at more than the sin when they look at anybody as we are all sinners.
            Blessings!

          • Roy D Carlson

            So if I am having sex with many women outside of my marriage, you should come to me and say “I forgive you”? This doesn’t seem quite right. If I don’t know I’m sinning, or if I refuse to repent from my sin, what good is forgiveness? Isn’t the purpose of th Law of God to call people to repentance and confess their sins? And doesn’t St. John tell us in his first letter, that those who say that they have no sin are without the truth and that we ought to confess our sins, so that God, who is faithful and just, will forgive our sins? That if we say that we are not sinners, we are liars, and we make God out to be a liar too?

            It seems to me that the whole basis of the Christian faith IS confession of sin, honesty about our sin, and faith that in Christ, God forgives us. If we don’t confess our sins — all our sins — then we turn God out to be the liar and the deceiver for telling us that it’s sin in the first place. God called homosexuality sin – who do we think we are that we can tell God He’s wrong? Sometimes we’re far more like Adam and Even than we care to admit!

          • MamaBearly

            Do you know everyone’s sin? I mean, if you were having sex with many women outside of your marriage, do you tell people so they can reprimand you for the sin?
            You cant repent without confessing our sins to Jesus first. Once you acknowledge them then you repent for them.

            When people come to a church there is no one there that needs to know their sin, but Jesus. It’s none of your business if the lady beside you in the pew has lied to her husband about the parentage of her last 3 babies. You can’t know that. So why do you think that you have the authority to tell anyone anymore than the gospel.
            No you confess the sin and repent then or confess the sin and repent at the end, do you really think Jesus is that picky when he wants all to come to salvation?
            We are not telling God he is wrong because he is never wrong.

            He’s omnipotent and knows everything that is going to happen.

            As I said, tell them the hope of salvation by repentance and let them decide on their own if they will repent. after that we are to leave them in their sin. There is no need to keep bugging someone about their choice because if Jesus wants them to turn to him he will. But it is not love to keep bugging anyone about their sin, which is not any more your business than the lady in the pew beside you.

            Once they decide whether it is to follow or not, we are supposed to treat them well, and love them. It doesn’t matter whether they have chosen not to follow him because Jesus said many with be saved as the end times come. If we are hateful to sinners they will not want to turn to Jesus. Besides Hate is darkness. No one should be denies Equal Rights because of their sin. You aren’t and you are a sinner just as much as they are. So why do Christians like you seem to just shrug off the necessities of life when it comes to JUST homosexuals.

            Who cares if they are people – humans beings – GOD’s Creations?
            No matter their sin, they are still of God. Just like you.
            So would Jesus deny them all the things that you and I have because of their sin? Not likely. Figure out what is more important to GOD and realize that he would not want anyone to have to be treated badly for their sin. He would not deny them a place to live, hot and cold water, medicine, food, clothes, nor would he make them go to a different restaurant to eat because of their sin. Sin is a big thing for Jesus, that is true, and repentance is obviously something he asks us to do, but Love is the message from Jesus just by knowing his commandments – Both loving god and each other is more important to Jesus than any sin. He will punish sin, but for his Saints, he expects better of them than treating people badly for their sin.

            Read the gospel and look for the love. Even when he spoke of the sins to his Apostles and Disciples he also spoke of love.

            Blessings!

          • Roy D Carlson

            AH well here’s the crux of it all – it’s their own business.

            But it doesn’t appear that this ELCA pastor wants to keep it between him and God, does it? And the homosexual liberation movement doesn’t seem like they want to keep their transgressions to between them and God, does it?

            If no one knew of my sin in the congregation, then in one way it’s between God and myself, yes. But the thing about sin is that it has a way of leeching out into the greater community. St. Paul, in his first letter, warns the congregation to “expel the immoral brother” who was sleeping with his step-mother (or possibly blood mother). He did it in private, but they found out and did nothing about it. St. Paul scorned that congregation for permitting it and not casting that unrepentant child out.

            Consider King David. He had Uriah killed and took Uriah’s wife into his bed. Few knew of this, and those who did said nothing. After all, it was King David. But God sent Nathan the prophet to call David out for his sin, to convict him and seek repentance. Nathan wasn’t “nice” in how he did, any more than St. Paul was “nice” in how he dealt with sin and the unrepentant. But ultimately God’s love prevailed through the confession of sin.

            St. Paul also instructs us to restore those who are sinning, and to do it gently. He doesn’t say that, for the sake of love and minding our own business, we should keep our mouths shut. He says that we should deal with the sin and the sinner so that sin is not permitted to fester and so that the person doesn’t abandon the faith. The ultimate goal of sin is to lead someone away from faith and back into the pit of death. WHY would we want – we who claim to be loving – why would we want to let someone’s sin fester so that they are led away from the Church and faith?

          • wandakate

            I do believe that it’s first CONFESSION of all of our sins, second it’s REPENTANCE of all of our sins, and finally to FORSAKE all of our sins. Once we confess and repent of them then we strive to forsake them and GOD is willing to forgive us of them and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
            JESUS doesn’t want anyone to perish.
            Revelation 22 tells us who will NOT be going to the coming Kingdom of GOD and the “sexually immoral” are part of that group…
            Equal rights is one thing in this life, but they will still have to face JESUS one on one on judgment day. For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of GOD. We must all believe, have faith, and be obedient to the word.

          • Florenca Mcdowell

            How many do you know 1,2 3? God does NOT sanction Homosexuals or Transgender. They change what God made them. READ: Gen 1:27-28 God made us in his image not denying what sex they were born. God created us. These parents are committing Child abuse American Ped. Assoc says so.
            ReadJude1:7 just as Sodom & Gomorrah indulged in sexual immorality and pursued UNNATURAL DESIRES WILL SERVE AS AN EXAMPLE BY UNDERGOING PUNISHMENT OF ETERNAL FIRE.JUDGEMENTR ROMANS 1;18 THRU 28 TELLS WHAT GOD SAYS IS RIGHT. NOT THIS PASTOR WHO IS FROM THE CHURCH OF SATAN

          • RWH

            Well, if you make no distinction between what a gay person is and what people do, your opinion might possibly hold. However, life is a lot more complex than that. You don’t know this pastor, and you certainly don’t know the child. Yet, you know enough about the situation to pass judgment. Concerning Sodom, neither one of us know if the people participating in illicit sex were gay or straight. People back then didn’t understand homosexuality as an orientation where people are hard wired. They just spoke about what people did, and not all men who have sex with men identify as gay. Secondly, Sodom was not about gay sex. The Old Testament prophets, especially Ezekiel refute this idea. All they say is “strange flesh,” which means that they are trying to have sex with angels. Also, if these men were gay, how come Lot offered up his daughters? Gays would not have been interested. Also notice how women don’t count. Or do you think that Christ only fed 3000 men and left the women and children to starve? Most of all, The American Pediatric Association is a small minority group of professionals. They are not the recognized organization, who refutes this idea of child abuse.

            To say that the Lutheran Church is the Church of Satan just shows how biased you are. If you think this, I argue that you have no idea what a real church is and what it is not.

            What about those people who are born with organs for both sexes? Are you going to say that these people are satanic as well? Life is a lot more complex than your stark worlds of blacks and whites with no grays or color. It must be pretty boring, but if it makes you feel secure, go with it.

          • MamaBearly

            It makes them feel secure within themselves as they think they are superior to everyone and do not understand about Jesus at all. It’s too bad that these ones are still blind to Jesus’ love. SMH
            Have a good day RWH

      • RWH

        People need to be careful about oversimplifying things. A number of churches left because they didn’t want to pay their pastors what the National Church mandated. A lot of people went to the North American Lutheran Church, whose only distinction is that pesky gay issue. I haven’t seen that church take off the ground yet. It’s been almost a decade, and they have no synodal organization, few bishops, and no seminary. The same holds for the North American Anglican Church. They split earlier, and I see no evidence of any type of church organization from a church that holds to the traditional episcopacy, and they certainly have no seminary. Archbishop Duncan and his followers were even evicted from their own cathedral in Pittsburgh by the congregation. They virtually lost all of their property.

        • Bob Johnson

          “People need to be careful about oversimplifying things.”

          So true. I keep my copy of Huff’s “How to Lie with Statistics” (1954) handy on the shelf. To say 500,000 people seems impressive. Expressed as 12 percent makes it not such a big change. And if you want to get into co-factors, that is a much bigger statistics textbook.

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        or in other words …. 88% decided Hell was okay ……………

        • wandakate

          I just wrote that Amos Moses way up before I read this. The 88% decided to go along with the world, and man’s laws, while the 12% was biblically smart and decided NOT to go with man’s laws but to follow their hearts and GOD’s laws instead. Now those are my kind of people.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Amen … the Elect are the Remnant …. and they are the few and far between ……

      • wandakate

        Oh my goodness…that’s because the majority will (according to scripture) be going to hell and not to the coming Kingdom of GOD (heaven) on earth.
        JESUS even warned us when He said, “NOT all to say to me, LORD, LORD, will enter the Kingdom of GOD, but “only” the ones who “DO” the will of the FATHER”.
        Ahhhh, time to wake up and heed the word.
        Good for the 12%, they knew the Bible and used some common sense, whereas the other 88% didn’t. You either follow man and man’s laws, or you will follow GOD and the laws of GOD. We can’t possibly do both at the same time.

        You will know them by their fruit.

        • Bob Johnson

          It is nice that you are so certain of God’s will. Others on this website have been equally as certain in their heresies. It could be that the 12% are wrong and the 88% are right. And might this growing Evangelical movement be, in fact, the majority what will not becoming into the Kingdom of God.

          Before we get to the Kingdom of God we will have to face Judgement in front of Jesus. How will you answer, if Jesus asked you, ”Do you remember the second of my two great commandments, To Love your neighbor as yourself.? What part of that commandment did you not understand?”

          • wandakate

            Actually the truth of the matter is that anyone who knows their scriptures will know what JESUS wanted.
            Yes to love the LORD thy GOD will all thy heart, and to love thy neighbor as thyself, but he did NOT ever abolish any of the 10 commandments…He said we would “hang” the 10 on those two, but that DID NOT do away with ALL the others. Aren’t they ALL still important today. Were they done away with at the cross? Are they obsolete, are they irrelevant? NO, none of the above. People just don’t obey them b/c they think of them as “law”. YES, they are GOD’s moral laws and they were NOT specifically just for the Jews, but they were written for ALL people of ALL times, everywhere. The bible even tells us that we will honor the original Sabbath day in the coming Kingdom of GOD (heaven) which will be on this earth. So, according to GOD they are for us still today in 2017, they haven’t gone away.

            All of my life I was a giver and have loved and cared about other people who have taken advantage of that and used me for their own purposes. Rarely have I gotten back the love that I tried to give, but JESUS is the judge and He knows the condition of each person’s heart and will mete out judgment accordingly and will be fair when doing it…

            Yes, each and every one of us will face JESUS for our judgment. Some will go to everlasting life and others to shame and punishment.

            Anyone who reads, studies and understands the word of GOD will know the will of GOD. If you don’t know GOD’s will then you don’t know the scriptures or the Bible. So I am happy to say that I know the will of GOD, it’s in HIs word.

          • Bob Johnson

            If you reread Matthew 22:40 you will find it says “hang all the law and the prophets.” Jesus said nothing about 10 commandments or moral law. He said all the law, all 613 Jewish commandments given in the Torah.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            The 10 commandments are part of Jewish law. Did you not know this?

          • Bob Johnson

            Yes, and so are the other 603 commandments. So the question is do you follow Jesus or Paul?

          • wandakate

            We best be following what JESUS said, and He told us to OBEY them (the Commandments that is). JESUS is our advocate and our mediator to GOD the FATHER and will be our final judge. It won’t be Paul. Paul was a mortal man in the flesh with fleshly desires and thoughts and comments. I would ALWAYS follow what JESUS had to say over Paul in a heartbeat.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Paul follows Jesus. There is no discrepancy between the two.

          • wandakate

            Paul as well as the rest still had a mind of their own, they could have written what their own thoughts were instead of everything that GOD had instructed them to write. I do not believe that ALL of it could have come out word for word perfect.
            The words of JESUS are foolproof, leaving No room for error.

          • wandakate

            The 20 Commandments are as relevant today as they ever were. They weren’t just for the Jewish nation. They were to last for 1,000 years and it’s not been that long yet.
            JESUS said that He didn’t come to do away with the law but to fulfill it (strengthen it, make it better, more relevant) than it was.
            JESUS SAID, “IF YOU LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.”
            I’ll ask you the same question that I asked Bob, what commandments was He referring to when He said that?????

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            I’m referring to the fact that Bob wants to disannul the 10 commandments. He seems confused about what they were.

          • wandakate

            First you did NOT answer my simple question…
            Secondly apparently that is what Bob is doing. Many Christians disregard all 10 of them thinking that they are just not important anymore, they aren’t necessary, and their pastors don’t correct any of it and yet if you asked them if it’s okay to murder they say, “no, of course not.” or “then can I steal? Would be okay for me to back up to your front porch and ‘steal’ ALL of the furniture on your porch including all of your plants”? And they will reply, “NO, you can’t do that, it’s not okay.” In one breath those laws still apply and are wrong, and in another breath we don’t need the 10 Commandments anymore…Hello, but somethings not quiet right here. Bob is perhaps confused along with many other people who do NOT obey the 10 commandments…

          • wandakate

            I just commented on this, it should be the next one below. Also I made a typo in the comment above and put all 20 of the commandments, but it was suppose to say 10, and I have since corrected that…sorry!

          • Bob Johnson

            You can edit your comments. You can easily fix minor typos.

          • Bob Johnson

            No. It would seem that you wish to disannul any law you find inconvenient. You will keep the 10 Commandments and a undeclared set of Moral Laws. However, seafood and cotton/polyester t-shirts are okay.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            I haven’t disannulled anything. It’s important to note that some laws are directed towards the children of Israel and others are directed to all mankind. Of course you know that because we’ve had this discussion before.

          • wandakate

            The Jewish laws over 600 of them were enough to drive those people loony…However it was the ceremonial laws, the sacrificial laws, the dietary laws, the common law and others that were specifically given to those people that were ALL done away with at the cross when JESUS died. However there were the “Royal Laws/Moral Laws of GOD that were NOT done away with and they were known as our standing 10 Commandments.
            Don’t tell me that we can still have other GOD’s before the one and only GOD, Don’t tell me that you think we can murder and it’s okay, or that we can steal and it’s acceptable. Are you telling me we can dishonor our parents and it’s okay with JESUS/GOD? What about the Sabbath, it’s okay to break that knowing that Sunday is not nor ever will be the Sabbath day, but is a pagan day that is worldly and traditional as well. What about false witnessing? Would that be okay today? Is adultery acceptable? Can we covet our neighbors goods? Are you actually telling me that ALL of those laws (the MORAL LAWS) of GOD (all 10 of them) can be broken today and that JESUS said “sure that’s fine”, they’re NOT relevant anymore, they were ALL only for those Jewish people of my day and time, and they don’t apply today, so don’t concern yourself with any of them, stay cool????? ALL of those OLD laws and sacrifices were NOT necessary after JESUS death b/c He alone became our sacrificial Lamb, the LAMB of GOD that takes away the sins of the world, so they weren’t any longer needed or relevant. They would serve NO purpose. People don’t want to honor/obey the big 10 simply b/c they have been told they won’t be able to (hogwash). They will get in their way of doing whatever they want to do. They aren’t convenient. They just don’t fit into our lifestyles any longer, therefore we ignore them…
            ,JESUS even said, “When they know the TRUTH, the TRUTH will set them free.”
            JESUS also said, did He not? “IF YOU LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.”
            Please tell me Bob Johnson, what commandments was He referring to when He said that?????
            IF you can’t answer this basic question, then I have NO farther comments to make on this topic, b/c you are as blinded as most of the rest of them.

          • Bob Johnson

            “Please tell me Bob Johnson, what commandments was He referring to when He said that?????”

            Jesus was a Jewish rabbi. He said in Matthew 22 that are to follow “all the laws and prophets.” That seems clear, all 613 commandments which includes the 10 commandments.

            Where do you find Jesus telling us that His death frees us of ANY of these commandments?

          • Bob Johnson

            “The Jewish laws over 600 of them were enough to drive those people loony.”

            Are you saying Orthodox Jews are crazy?

      • Florenca Mcdowell

        Bob, NOT true we left church when they promote homosexuals as normal. In the end ELCA churches will be judged by God and they will NOT be permitted into heaven.Read Galatians 5:19-21 Especially 21 it clearly states they will NOT inherit the kingdom of God

    • RWH

      This sanctimonious finger-pointing gets so tiring. The so-called conservative churches haven’t done much better. As far as this pastor goes, it is so easy to micromanage other people’s children. Has anyone talked with the pastor to hear his side of the story, the remedies that they have tried, their quest to get outside help, the hopelessness of the situation? People agonize over these things, and to tell parents to reject their children is possibly the worst advice someone could give. I know of people who have transitioned, and the decision is just as hard, of not harder, for their families as it is for the individual. Perhaps a little compassion and less judgment is in order.

      In far too many cases, parents have disowned their children. Eventually, they are the losers because the guilt and the sadness of children who won’t have anything to do with them catches up. Several don’t even know where their children are. Too many have the mindset that people are to tow the line or else. . . . Their idea of helping people out is ostracizing them if they don’t conform. They may help people out outwardly in that these people conform, but they’re not happy, and sooner or later their feelings spin out of control.

      • Mr Cleats

        Oh sure. Some childless old homosexual knows all about raising kids – since you never had any of your own, your opinions aren’t worth squat.

        Parents do not look at their children the same way as homosexual predators look at them. We do not see it as our duty to groom our kids to make them available to homosexuals. Obviously homosexuals find that disturbing, that there are forms of love which are not sexual.

        • RWH

          I, as well as others, have been labeled many things. One called me a senile old woman. Others have said all sorts of other terrible things. Unfortunately, this all violates the rules of this forum and will be eventually deleted by the moderators.

          I have never discussed personal details about myself. Why should I? It just gives people like you an opening to make hurtful responses. If anything, it just shows how desperate people are. It’s the behavior of a common playground bully. However, one important fact does stand out. Insults and libel are the only recourse of individuals who cannot conduct a rational debate. It shows a lack of intelligence and the ability to do any introspective thinking. Bullies usually have the aptitude of a high-school dropout. With that in mind, I stand by my opinions until you can produce documented evidence that my opinions are wrong. Anything else is a bunch of hot air.

          • MamaBearly

            Oh RWH, I do love this post. Well said, my brother!
            Here is one Christian who is in total agreement with your post, if that makes a difference! God Bless!

          • RWH

            Thank you. There’s a lot of insecure people on lists like this one, and they go spasmodic when someone disagrees with them and presents an alternative viewpoint. Their only response strategy is to label people, call them sinners, and spew damnation. Someone went so far as to look me up on Facebook and then dishonor me. And then when someone responds to them, they cry persecution. Salmon Rushdie said it best. Someone quoted him on another string, but I have got too many irons in the fire right now to look it up. I just consider the source and move on. When I was a child, I witnessed one of these types literally hound a teenager out of the church. The kid would have nothing to do with God or the Church. His parents were heartbroken but didn’t want to leave that church. Later, when the kid came down with Parkinson’s Disease, this same member still kept up the abuse by telling everyone that God struck this kid down. Justice was served though. The man’s own kids ran as far away from him as possible, and when he died, he died a very lonely old man. Even his wife couldn’t convince his kids to visit him on his deathbed.

          • MamaBearly

            Oh that’s so sad. I can’t see anything with love. It is too sad that the church/ a member of the church was so abusive. I have never understood that kind of attitude though. Now that I am a Christian, I still do not understand that attitude and do not agree with it in any way.
            Jesus would not want the kid to be chased away from HIM because it would enforce the kids feelings of people of God being abusive. He wants us all to come to repentance so he would not approve of what they did. There is a church now that has taken away the membership of a person who came out, and even though she is not a member, they are allowing her in to follow what she feels is best with Jesus in mind. If they can’t change her mind, or approve who she is, at least they are giving her the right place to change her mind again. Jesus is able.
            I do know that there are some posters here who are difficult to discuss various things without touching a sensitive spot. I have likened it to having my head fill up like a balloon and exploding. It can be very tiring to discuss Jesus with them as well, and since it’s the same man, the same book, you’d think we’d agree at least on the man. Only some things about Our Lord, but many things don’t sound like the Jesus I know and love at all. I suggest they go back to the bible and read it again. SMH
            Perhaps you could find a list of the attributes a Christian should show, and post them when they are just reacting instead of being able to stay calm. It might teach someone something they did not know about their faith, who knows.
            Thanks for the reply, and the sad story, as well as the words about the issues that some people seem to have.
            God bless, and have a great evening!

          • Florenca Mcdowell

            MAMA, FIRST OF ALL YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN! CHURCH AND GOD IS NOT ABOUT FEELINGS, ITS ABOUT GODS WORD AND THE BIBLE. You say you don’t agree that a church should not Condon this kind of action from a Pastor. James 3:1 states NOT many of you should become teachers (pastors) for you know that we who teach will be judged with GREATER STRICKNESS. Bible tells us to be UNYOKED with non believers, which this pastor & wife are. romans1:18 For the WRATH of God is revealed from heaven against ALL Ungodliness. Do you know this Jesus ? Or are you only talking about his love, love, love? Read RomansR1:24 Therefore God gave them up in their lust of their hearts to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves.R1:28 calls their minds debased and those like you who give approval of their actions are also condemned. If you really want to be a Christian I suggest you do what you told others READ the Bible. I’ll pray you find the straight and narrow path.

          • MamaBearly

            I beg your pardon but who are you to decide I am not Christian? I am not here for you, I’m here to do God’s work, not to be popular with everyone.
            Secondly, my post was not about the article. It was in reply to RWH, so truthfully you should have made sure I was actually talking about what you want to rip into me.

            If you don’t see the love that Jesus wants us to have, that is your loss, not mine. I know I am doing God’s duty because HE is leading me, and the Devil would not lead me to tell everyone of Jesus’ love or his salvation.
            People like you are the reason people think of Christians as hateful people. People like you make the younger people stay away from churches because of the way you treat someone YOU think is a sinner. You don’t spend the time to tell them about Jesus and salvation, you tell them that they are sinners and going to go to hell. You don’t even encourage sinners to understand that JESUS LOVES THEM Yes even SINNERS
            You treat everyone as if you are better than them and make them feel like dirt. Jesus NEVER made them feel bad. All he did was tell them to sin no more. He never made them feel ashamed.

            Tell me SISTER PERFECT? Do you really think that Jesus just said to love everyone to hear his own voice? Do you really think that He told us to treat people the way we want to be treated, but made exceptions to sinners? NO because YOU are as much of a sinner as THEY are.

            Where did you ever see me agree with the sin of homosexuality?
            READ IT AGAIN! I have never said that ever. If you would read my post you will see that ALL I am saying is that JESUS would not want anyone to be denied what these PEOPLE are being denied.

            Prove to me that Jesus wants anyone to be denied housing because of their sin.

            Show me where Jesus felt sinners should be denied food, or medicine?

            Show me where Jesus told us to treat anyone by making them feel less than a human being because of their sin.

            Do you really think that Jesus would approve of how you talk about homosexuals? The way you and some of the others post, there is so much hate in your words that it means you are all in the darkness and need the light.

            Why on earth do you think any HUMAN BEING deserves to be treated any differently FOR HIS SINS? DO YOU deserve to be for your sins?

            He wants us to treat everyone well, and that includes homosexuals.
            We aren’t suppose to gang up on them when they are in public. Jesus did not do that either. Do you not realize that the way Jesus acted was the way he was showing us to act?

            Why can’t you people who call yourselves Christians act like Christians and not like BULLIES. Look at yourself from Jesus’ point of view. He would not agree with any mistreatment of anyone.

            So first of all, read the posts properly without expecting what it is going to say.
            Secondly, you go ahead and ignore what I am saying because I am telling you that God is leading me to tell Christians to remember his commandment and that it means love everyone with no exceptions. And NO he did not mean that harsh love that you use to pretend you love the person and not the sinner. Because if you talk like this here, you have no love of any sinner.

            Look yourself over and recognize your own sin. Because your Salvation is your responsibility, not anyone else’s.

            Another thing, NEVER accuse someone who is spreading the gospel of not being a Christian. Especially since I treat everyone with love. Unless they come on to me screaming at me that I am not a Christian.

            I suggest you watch yourself in the future. It’s a sin to treat another Christian badly you know.

            Look, Jesus told them of the sin, and LEFT them to their sin. Take a hint. tell them and leave them alone.

            It’s up to them to give up the sin and repent, and nothing with the hate you show is going to do that. If anything without the Love Jesus wants us to use, no one you rip into about their sin will want to be anywhere near a church because they were BULLIED by the likes of you.

        • Garbage Adams

          What does “groom our kids to make them available to homosexuals” mean? Homosexuals are not interested in children.

          • MamaBearly

            Hi, what you say is true, that they are not interested in children.
            Homosexuals rarely force themselves on anyone, but prefer to have
            someone who is closer to their own age and willing, just as we do.

            Although we can’t honestly say there are NO homosexuals that prefer children, the likelihood of it being a non-homosexual is much higher, I’m sure.

            Homosexuals are not always pedophiles, just like all divorces are not because of infidelity,

            So the ones that do still think that Pedophiles and Homosexuals are one in the same, please learn something NEW today and remember this lesson, and you’ll do fine wherever you go. God bless!
            God bless to you Garbage Adams too!

        • dennis

          Wow, do you have no sense of reality about you. Get out of yor house and meet some of the many full of love parents who are of the same gender. Don;t ba afraid, they will not bite.

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        “This sanctimonious finger-pointing gets so tiring.”

        and yet you continue to do it to ….. how did you put it ….. “The so-called conservative churches ” ….. GOOD ONE ………….

      • TellstheTruth

        Changing your physical appearance to match your inner feelings is not the compassionate approach to gender dysphoria. The suicide rate after transitioning is still 40%! Using hormones and plastic surgery has been proven not to solve the problem. The problem needs to be solved with therapy, the same way you would help someone suffering from bulimia or anorexia.

        • wandakate

          They need “mental” council. GOD did not ever create a “transsexual” or a “bi-sexual” or a “homosexual” or a “queer”, or a “gay” person.
          He created a man and a woman (male and female) and that is ALL that He ever created.
          Anything else is a “mental” issue that needs to be dealt with. These parents are doing a grave injustice by allowing this boy to transition to a girl at this young age…I do NOT at all agree that this was a healthy good idea.
          The child may have felt that he was a girl, but sometimes kids go through stages, but he should have had mental counseling and be allowed to grow and mature more. If the child still felt this way at 12 then I would take a deeper look at the issue with advanced physiological counseling.
          At the young age of 7 this child didn’t know anything about who or what he was. He was BORN a “BOY’, he is still a “BOY”. They let him dye his hair, and grow it out, and they allowed him to wear girls clothes and use jewelry etc. They have accepted and pressed the issue to his liking. He has managed to get his own way, however at the end of the day he is still a BOY (made by GOD). If he was to be a little girl then got would have done that and the child would have been born into the world as a GIRL…That is not the case. They can allow all of his physical characteristics to be modified, however they can’t change the fact that he is a BOY, he will be a GUY, a MAN in his mind and to GOD he will always be a male, and NOT a female.

          Also the Bible tells us that these people NONE of them will enter into the Kingdom of GOD in Rev. 22:15 He tell us that they will NOT be entering the Kingdom of GOD (heaven).
          They must confess, repent and forsake all their sins or they will NOT be there. It doesn’t get any clearer than that.

          These parents are to blame and this child’s blood will be on their shoulders to bear.

          • dennis

            We are all certain that God does not approve of your attitude or behavior. You will be prayed for, Please watch for the signs. .

          • Florenca Mcdowell

            DENNIS, and you know that G does NOT approve of what he said in Bible. Maybe your prayers come from the church of Satan?? God is the same today as yesterday he does NOT CHANGE. Gen.127-28 clearly tells us he made male and female. You are either one or the other. You are a Science Denier because DNA/Chromosomes in our body do NOT CHANGE with pink hair or a dress. Look in the mirror

          • Bob Johnson

            Oddly when I look in a mirror, I do not see DNA/Chromosomes, and I find no mention of them in the Bible. This DNA stuff seems to be an invention of modern day science. Why do you use it as the gold standard for defining male and female?

      • Chet

        No need for anyone to “talk to this pastor”. All he and his wife need do is take it all to the Lord in prayer even as they search the Holy Scriptures of God’s Word. There, they’ll find absolutely no support for homosexuality, abortion and transwhatever… Further, you state you know people who’ve transitioned. Wrong, Sir, they can snip off things here and firm up things there yet DNA remains as it is and DNA determines gender. A man can lose his private parts due to war, car accident, cancer or whatever, yet, he’ll always remain a man… And no woman will ever become a man by any means… Why support this new age madness…

    • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

      ELCA is apostate, not liberal.

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        ummmm …. what is the difference …………

    • dennis

      Kudos to these parents, putting their humanity above your ideology. You are the one who shows no shame, their love is more Christ like than your hateful perspective. Compared to your child abuse in brain washing the wee ones in Sunday School, they are to be congratulated for standing up, hand in hand with the Lord, against our shameful expressions.

      • wandakate

        Your thinking is so distorted. What if this “BOY” changes his mind when he is older 18-21 and realizes that he is really a boy. What if he reads the bible and find out what GOD says about all of this? He’s going to know that his parents made a huge mistake in allowing him to change his sex to a girl instead of giving him solid council when he was a child and assuring him that liking pink and things was fine for a 7 yr. old boy but that he was really a boy and would remain one and that was b/c GOD had made him a boy, and not a girl.
        He should have NEVER been allowed these things, bc if and when he changes his mind that may be when he commits suicide b/c it will be a change that can’t be undone. You’re not thinking logically or sanely.

        • dennis

          Sorry wanda but your attempt at predicting the future is what has no basis in reality. Mere speculation from a mind warped by religion. Remember it is always a mistake to attempt to assign such attributes as “logic” “sanity” to that which drives from religion. Stick with “I believe . . ” and you will be safe, attempts to bring your “beliefs” into the real world will continually fail. Have a beautiful day.

          • wandakate

            The name is Wandakate, not Wanda. Isn’t it printed correctly? Yes I see that it is.

          • Bob Johnson

            Hey, some people make typos. And auto-spell check really messes up some of the things I type.

  • Lydia Church

    Sin. Perversion. Confusion and rebellion of God’s established order. Period.

  • michael louwe

    The German ex-Catholic monk, Martin Luther, gave some wrong teaching about “justification by faith alone”, eg he taught that even unrepented sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking would NEVER cause a “Christian” to lose his/her salvation.
    ……. But 1COR.5:5 says that an unrepentant “Christian” will soon have his flesh destroyed by Satan because of his sin/evil-deed and he MAY lose his salvation, eg while in suffering, he may curse God/Jesus and die, like the wife of Job.

    So, Lutherans tend to be desensitized to sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking and over-confident about their salvation.

    • Amos Moses – He>i

      interesting ………. first you are taking 1 Cor 5 out of context ….. and that person mentioned was not saved to begin with and was a wolf among the sheep, a false teacher in the church, and very similar to say a pedophile priest ………….. and Hebrews says something FAR more on point and it says it is IMPOSSIBLE to lose it and that you CANNOT jump in and out of salvation ……….

      6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
      6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
      6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

      so it is impossible to jump out of salvation, out of Christs hand that scripture says He will not lose even one who is brought to him by the Father …… and even if you could override Christ and the Fathers will, and we CANNOT, you cannot get back in unless Christ is sacrificed AGAIN ….. WHICH HE IS NOT GOING TO DO ………… so everyone sins even AFTER salvation …. and if what you are saying is true …. then NO ONE gets saved ……….

      Nope ………… FAIL ….. as that is a God that tries to save …. but cannot …. and that may be the god you worship …. but that God does not include Christ ………….

      • michael louwe

        FAIL, ……. You have misinterpreted Scripture or the Word of God, just like what the devil likes to do.

        HEB.6: = 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[b] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

        7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears
        herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.


        HEB.10: =
        26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

        30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[e] says the Lord.[f] And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”[g] 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
        _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

        The above Bible verses say that it is impossible for once-enlightened and once-knowledgeable “Christians” who chose to fall away from the faith or commit sin willfully, to be re-saved or re-born-again or re-regenerated.

        ……. Instead, they will be “burned” or punished/cursed by God, eg God permits Satan to destroy their flesh.(1COR.5:5 & 11:30, 1JOHN.5:16-19)

        • Amos Moses – He>i

          IF …. IF … and that is a pretty big if …. and IF you fall away …. it is then IMPOSSIBLE …. but …Christ has said He will not lose EVEN ONE ………

          John
          6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
          6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
          6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
          6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

          • michael louwe

            The Book/Epistle/Letter of Hebrews was directed at Jewish Christians and the Book/Epistle/Letter of 1Corinthians was directed at Gentile Christians in the Church in Corinth, Greece, which had been established by Paul.
            ……. So, both Books/Epistles/Letters were directed at the saved or Christians.
            .
            .
            1JOHN2: = Deceptions of the Last Hour

            18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[c] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

            19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and they both identified those in the church who were pretending to be christians and were not ………. and were not saved …… and it is obvious they were not saved …….

          • michael louwe

            No, you are in error …….

            1COR.5: = 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.[b]

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            right …. as that person was NOT of the church …. he was an INFILTRATOR and an IMPOSTOR and a wolf among the sheep …. he had married his fathers wife and WAS NOT SAVED …….

          • michael louwe

            Only God can judge who is saved or unsaved or knew whether that person was not of the Corinth Church, was an infiltrator, impostor or wolf among sheep. For all we know, he could have repented of his sin/incest and was eventually saved.

            Seems, you are usurping the position of God and claiming to have superior knowledge, like what the devil likes to do.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            no … MEN CAN JUDGE …. as that is EXACTLY what Paul was telling them in that letter ….. inside the church MEN CAN JUDGE …. it is called CHURCH DISCIPLINE …. see …. when you PROOF TEXT and just quote one line like 1 Corinthians 5:5 … OUT OF CONTEXT …..and then FAIL to read further …. in this case ALL THE WAY THROUGH 1 Corinthians 6 then you would know that ….. ” if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.” …. that REQUIRES JUDGING ……….. also …. “Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.” ………. yes we are TO JUDGE THEM …..

            1 Corinthians
            5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
            5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
            5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
            5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
            5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
            6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
            6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
            6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
            6:4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
            6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
            6:6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
            6:7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
            6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
            6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
            6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
            6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
            6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

          • michael louwe

            No, we are in no position to judge who is saved or unsaved. We cannot even judge our own salvation, let alone others’. That judgement belongs solely to God/Jesus.
            _ _ _ _ _ _ _

            ACTS.10: = 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”

            REV.20: = The Great White Throne Judgment

            11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

            REV.21: = 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes[o] an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

            PHIL.2: = Light Bearers

            12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

            14 Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in
            the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            we are in EVERY POSITION to judge …… WE WILL JUDGE THE ANGELS ….. ummmm …. the HOLY SPIRIT said that through PAUL in 1 CORINTHIANS …. and i just showed you where YOU neglected to read it ……….

          • michael louwe

            You said, ……. “right …. as that person was NOT of the church …. he was an
            INFILTRATOR and an IMPOSTOR and a wolf among the sheep …. he had
            married his fathers wife and WAS NOT SAVED …….”

            Then you said, ……. “first …. it was not actual incest …. it does not say it was his
            mother ….. but on another level it was ….. certainly was not a Godly
            and Holy choice ….. and ACTUALLY we DO KNOW he repented and was
            welcomed back into the church …. as it is mentioned in 2 Corinthians.”

            Seems, you are contradicting yourself.

          • wandakate

            I noticed that.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            first …. it was not actual incest …. it does not say it was his mother ….. but on another level it was ….. certainly was not a Godly and Holy choice ….. and ACTUALLY we DO KNOW he repented and was welcomed back into the church …. as it is mentioned in 2 Corinthians …… but also …. what does 1 Corinthians 5:5 say ….. “that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” … so ….. there was NO LOSS of salvation as you assert ….. this passage is about CHURCH DISCIPLINE …. NOT losing salvation ……….. loss of fellowship ….. but that is not the samething ……

            5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

          • wandakate

            JESUS told us to confess our sins, to repent of them and to above all forsake them. He wants NONE to perish.
            However, there will be NO sin in the Kingdom of GOD.
            We are told to persevere until the end in order to be saved, and many will unfortunately fall by the wayside b/c they didn’t live in OBEDIENCE to GOD and follow His laws and Commandments.

          • wandakate

            He won’t lose them IF they confess their sins and after the repent of them and after they forsake them, then He will not lose one of them. We MUST be born again of the spirit and the water and ONLY then will we be saved and ready to enter the Kingdom.
            We CAN lose our salvation, regardless of what you say b/c the scriptures plainly tell us that we can.
            JESUS said “IF you are lukewarm I will spew you out of my mouth”. Meaning I will have NOTHING to do with you.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “He won’t lose them IF they confess their sins and after the repent of them and after they forsake them, then He will not lose one of them.”

            all their sins were forgiven …. and not when they confessed them ….. not when they repented …… but even BEFORE they were created ….. as God the Father and Son and Holy Spirit knew them and knew they would be saved from BEFORE the foundation of the world was laid ………. they are and were PREDESTINED to salvation ….. so they ALWAYS WERE saved …. and of the Elect ………….. all there sins are forgiven past present and FUTURE by a perfect salvation and a perfect Savior ………..

        • Amos Moses – He>i

          Hebrews 10 is not talking about the saved but the unsaved …. those who have been told the truth and reject it …… sorry … no ………. 1 Cor 5 is not about salvation … again it is about those who are not saved …. and Hebrews 6 says it is IMPOSSIBLE for those saved to lose it and John 6 says Christ will in no wise cast out those saved …. you are in error …….

    • wandakate

      Why of course the ONCE SAVED-ALWAYS SAVED doctrine is a false doctrine, simply b/c it’s NOT Biblical. JESUS said, “IF YOU LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.”
      He also told us that if we have been saved and we fall back into the unsaved lifestyle we will NOT enter the Kingdom of GOD.
      He said if we are “luke-warm” we will NOT enter the Kingdom of GOD (heaven). He didn’t want us to be backslidden Christians, or to fall away from the faith or to become luke-warm. He said that we should be HOT or COLD but being in the luke-warm position he would spew us out of His mouth. In other words, He would have “nothing” to do with us.

  • Roy D Carlson

    These people are NOT Lutheran! True Lutheranism does not treat God’s Word as some fiction novel for us to read and interpret any way we’d like. This pastor has done his daughter a GRAVE disservice and his lack of repentance and recognition of sin could cost him his soul should he remain unrepentant. The ELCA “lutherans” need to wake up, stop giving into worldly pressures and fancies, and return to the Lord their God, lest they be pulled up as weeds and thrown into the unquenchable fire. And this isn’t just about gender issues. This goes FAR deeper than sexuality with the ELCA.

  • Judy Zwyghuizen

    I don’t Believe that a child would have wanted to a different sex than what they were born I think they just wanted a little girl because they had three boy’s!

  • Jen

    you can slap a pair of bunny ears on a dog, that does not make it a rabbit.

  • mr goody two shoes

    When Other Lutheran synods refer to the elca as Lutheran in name only .there really saying that synod is Christian in name only. And Much of the elca leader is little ( a ) anti-Christian . So stay away from them.

  • mr goody two shoes

    Any one can purchase the book what’s going on among Lutherans available from northwestern publishing house. it traces this sort of Lutheran pastor to higher criticism thinking about the bible .than! The Lord the Lutherans that fuly subscribe to the bible and drawn from the bible book of Concord reject All higher cfitical views a

  • mr goody two shoes

    ELCA pastors do not have to take a oath before their accepted (ORDAINED) as pastors That they believe the holy scriptures are with out any error in every thing they say, as WELS ELS and CLC pastors do. They also do not have to fully subscribe to the book of concord as WELS and ELS and CLC pastors do. ELCA Pastors can hold critical views of what the bible says .WELS ELS AND CLC Pastor can only hold to the old historical grammatical view as Luther did..
    want to know more? this book is available to any one … What’s going on amoung Lutherans available from northwestern publishing house or amazon
    it explains why the synods of wels els and clc and other Lutheran church bodies Turn away members of the elca from the Lords table.

  • http://www.bibleversusconstitution.org/ Ted R. Weiland

    “The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto Yahweh thy God.” (Deuteronomy 22:5)

    “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” (Matthew 18:6)

    For more on how Yahweh’s immutable moral law (including Leviticus 18:22, 20:13, and Deuteronomy 22:5) applies and should be implemented today, see free online book “Law and Kingdom: Their Relevance Under the New Covenant.” Click on my name, then our website. Go to our Online Books page and scroll down to title.

    • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

      And what do we do with intersexuals (children born with both male and female reproductive organs). What was you god thinking then?

  • Dianne

    Having a Master’s degree in theology DOES NOT make you an ANOINTED minister of the MOST HIGH GOD. These people are HIRELINGS and should be rejected as so. With all the supposed “education” it is quite obvious that they chose NOT to throughly study and apply the WORD OF GOD to their son’s gender dysphoria nor did they look into the well documented 40% suicide rate amongst Transgenders and their sorrowful plight. Also there are many AWESOME testimonies of those who truly came to Christ and were delivered from this LIE of Satan and their willingness to help others come out of this perverted lifestyle. The parents are to blame and if they DO NOT REPENT then their final abode will be an eternity in HELL. I will definitely pray for their repentance and their son’s deliverance! To GOD BE ALL THE GLORY!!!

    Matthew 7:21 Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they WERE NOT ALL OF US.

    Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call EVIL good, and good evil; that put DARKNESS for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

  • Tonya Elise

    IF ONE LGBT Pastor LEADS one Person to GOD, He or she has done GOD’S
    WILL. YOU HAVE NOT RIGHT TO JUDGE. That Right is God’s alone. Judge not
    Lest ye be Judged. YOUR HATE IS A SIN. and It is YOU that Needs to
    Repent !!!!. Jesus the walk the Earth LOVED everyone Regardless is their
    Sins. HATE IS OF SATAN. You Hate IS A SIN IN GOD”S EYES. Death awaits
    Your Hatred Without you Redemption you will die. So Sins do you need to
    be worried about??? The is No Greater SIN . Ask you self what have i
    done to God?? What Sins have i done??? And you call yourselves
    “Christians” ??? I call it that you are Only a “So-Called Christian” In
    Name Only. And for what reason is that? All people are born into this
    earth as a Sinner. No one is great than another.., I do not care if you
    are a Leader of a Church ( a Pastor, a Minister,a Priest.). Glory to God
    in the highest. in normeni Patri et Filli Et Spirtus Scancti

  • Chet

    The sign is correct, God indeed loves that little boy without doubt, regardless of the absolute foolishness and willful linkage with the lost world’s attitude as displayed by his mom and dad…