New Mexico Public School Paints Over Scripture Mural Following Complaint

CLOVIS, N.M. — Officials with a public school in New Mexico quickly agreed to paint over a mural featuring a Scripture citation after receiving a letter from a prominent atheist-led church-state separation group last week.

The Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) recently sent a letter to the Clovis Municipal School District after receiving a complaint from a parent who noticed the mural at Clovis Freshman Academy, which features a dove and anchor, and the phrase “Hope anchors the soul—Hebrews 6:19.”

The mural had reportedly been created by a former art teacher four years ago and none had complained—until now.

“The district violates the Constitution when it allows schools to display religious symbols or messages,” FFRF’s letter read. “Public schools may not advance, prefer or promote religion.”

“This religious display is particularly inappropriate given that about 35% of those born after 1981 are not religious,” it asserted. “The display alienates those nonreligious students, families, teachers and members of the public whose religious beliefs are inconsistent with the message being promoted by the school.”

The organization therefore asked that the mural be removed so as to adhere to a neutrality toward religion.

The same day that the letter was received, Clovis Municipal Schools Superintendent Jody Balch advised via email that the school was working on painting over the display. It was covered within 24 hours.

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“We are pleased that the school district reacted with alacrity to remedy this violation,” FFRF Co-President Annie Laurie Gaylor said in a statement. “This action ensures that all of its students—of any religious background or no religious background—feel welcome and included.”

However, local television station KRQE spoke to members of the public and reported that most said they have no problem with the painting.

As previously reported, in 1647, the Massachusetts Bay Colony passed “The Old Deluder Satan Act,” which required that children be taught to read so they could learn to read the Bible.

“In being one chief project of that old deluder, Satan, to keep men from the knowledge of the Scriptures, … and that learning may not be buried in the graves of our forefathers in Church and Commonwealth, the Lord assisting our endeavors, it is therefore ordered by this court and the authority thereof, that every township in this jurisdiction, after the Lord hath increased them to the number of fifty householders, shall then forthwith appoint one within their town to teach all such children as shall resort to him to write and read,” it read in part.

The first textbook used in the American colonies even before the nation’s founding, “The New England Primer,” was largely focused on the Scriptures, and was stated to be popular in public and private schools alike until approximately the early 1900’s. It used mostly the King James Bible as reference, and spoke much about sin, salvation and proper behavior.

“Save me, O God, from evil all this day long, and let me love and serve Thee forever, for the sake of Jesus Christ, Thy Son,” it read.


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  • Jerome Horwitz

    Jellyfish. Absolute jellyfish.

    I am almost tempted to deliberately create something making reference to God and Jesus, daring the FFRF to say something just so I could tell them what they could do with themselves and then start a lawsuit against them charging harassment and violating my constitutional right to talk about the Lord anytime and anywhere I see fit.

    • MM Avelleyra

      Hi Jerome, I know you are angry, but remember – Christ taught us to deal with mockers, unbelievers, scoffers and sinners with kindness, compassion and mercy. We will do our best to open their hearts and eyes – and then leave God to do the rest. Blessings to you..i have a feeling some big things are going to occur in the next several years.

    • Michael C

      You’re free to create whatever you want referencing your personal religious beliefs. The FFRF seriously doesn’t care.

      The FFRF only cares about the government endorsing a religion, not private citizens.

      • Jerome Horwitz

        Tell that to the family that was bullied by the FFRF because of a memorial for a loved one.

        See, the FFRF has been unmasked, their true agenda revealed. There’s no running or hiding from the truth: the Freedom From Religion Foundation are anti-Christian bigots.

        That’s a statement of undeniable fact, not worth arguing over because there’s nothing to argue.

        • Michael C

          As long as you’re not using the government or public land to promote your religious beliefs, you’ll be just fine. FFRF doesn’t care what you do.

          • violetteal

            The Supreme Court has agreed that religious expression on public land is permissible. It doesn’t go against the establishment clause. The FFRF has never won a case. They just sue and sue until those they fight, cannot afford to do it anymore.

          • MarkSebree

            Violetteal,

            The Supreme Court has said that religious expression on public land is permissible under some circumstances, not all. If you are talking about a long term or permanent display, it is not permissible. If you are talking about government employees acting in their official capacity, or who can reasonably be seen as acting in their official capacity, it is not permissible. If you are talking about a person standing on the street corner and preaching to passers by, but not otherwise obstructing foot or vehicular traffic, then that is permissible. If you are talking about a private group which applied for and received the applicable permits through official channels and were not shown any favoritism to hold a religious rally or revival in a public park, then this is permissible. It is all about who is performing the action, and if it can reasonably be seen as the government endorsing or disparaging a particular religious viewpoint.

            And the FFRF has won many cases. You must be confusing them with the ACLJ or the Liberty Counsel. Here are some of the cases that the FFRF has won:
            Freedom From Religion Foundation v. Bookpack, Inc., United States District Court for the Western District of Wisconsin, Case No. 11-CV-634

            FFRF v. City of Santa Clara; No. 5:16-cv-02072

            FFRF v. NEW KENSINGTON ARNOLD SCHOOL DISTRICT; No. 15-3083

            FFRF v. City of Shelton; No 3:16-cv-00477

            And mane more.

            If you go to the FFRF website, select the “LEGAL” section, and then the link “Highlighted Court Victories” and/or “New Legal Successes”, you will see long lists of the FFRF court successes.

            Additionally, the FFRF sends letters to those that people have reported in violation of the US and state constitutions outlining the problems that the defendants have caused by their action or inaction, swell as the legal precedent supporting the FFRF and the potential plaintiff. The potential defendant is given every reasonable opportunity to correct the situation without a court case or being sued. Those that fight the law and lose only have themselves to blame.

          • Guzzman

            You wrote “The FFRF has never won a case.” That assertion is clearly false. FFRF prevailed in the CURRENT case – did you not read the article? The FFRF website documents hundreds of victories in cases involving government violations of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. Google “Highlighted Court Victories – Freedom From Religion Foundation.”

          • Jerome Horwitz

            Using cognitive dissonance to defend the obvious and indefensible as well as outright dishonesty are not endearing qualities.

            Seeing this is not a communist country, you may want to examine that.

        • Netizen_James

          Nonsense. No such family was ever ‘bullied’ by the FFRF.
          Got facts? Or just more ‘fake news’ from the Bannons and O’Keefe’s of the world?

          • Jerome Horwitz

            Nonsense. No such family was ever ‘bullied’ by the FFRF.

            “Family takes down mother’s roadside cross memorial after group demands Salem remove it” August 14, 2017, katu (dot)com.

            You wanna try again?

      • violetteal

        The FFRF wants all religious, and mainly Christian expression out of the public regardless if it’s private property or public property. They are bullies and should be fought at every turn.

        • MamaBearly

          I’ve never seen them go after anything on private property.
          Can you give me an idea of what the story was about so I can google it please?

          • bartcen

            she can’t because there is no such example. The religiously afflicted will say anything that pops into their mind.
            But..have a mural invoking Satan, or “Lord Moloch” on publicly owned property and watch them suddenly get the point.
            Hypocrites.

          • MamaBearly

            excuse me, bartcen. I am one of those “religiously afflicted” and I don’t really like being tagged along with some of the posters here that are what I call, Christians by name only…
            we aren’t all that bad, actually. I do agree there seems to be a lot of Christians that are acting badly rather than like a good Christian who is good to people.
            Please, keep me in mind when I say, not all of us are interested in complaining about anything. We aren’t supposed to complain, you see, It’s part of the Bible. Good to know, don’t you think.
            If you want to use it and need the scripture, let me know.
            God blessings! Have a great night!

          • Netizen_James

            I don’t see where ‘don’t complain’ is in the Gospels, but I do see where Jesus told His followers not to pray in public and make a big show about how righteous they are, but to pray at home in private, where your prayer is between you and God, and is humble, rather than being intended to bolster your standing in the community by showing everyone how pious you are. I would sure appreciate it if more Christians would take that lesson seriously. Especially as regards ‘legislative prayer’.

          • MamaBearly

            I have no disagreement with the scriptures you mention, and you are totally correct, except to pass the gospel asking people to listen is not wrong, but it is when against their wishes those people walk away so they don’t have to hear it.
            Actually the scriptures do say that we are not to complain because it would be like the Hebrews in the wilderness complaining that God was not providing for them “enough”, and we should be happy when we live in God’s Will, not complaining about everything as if we do not trust God to answer our prayers about the problems we are complaining about. Trusting God is a very large part of being a Christian. We have to trust God to be able to believe that Jesus came and died for our sins. We have to trust God that we will have Eternal Life when this life is over. We have to trust in God to have our prayers answered. If we do not trust God, our prayers will not be answered. If we trust God, it may not happen when you expect or want the prayer to be answered, but you can be assured that the way God answers your prayer will be what is the best thing for you.
            As far as ‘legislative prayer’ I am sorry I am not familiar with the whole issue. I believe it is about praying before the session starts or something like that?
            I guess in the legislature case, it seems most sensible to allow people to wait outside until after the prayer is finished if they are offended. I don’t know what the numbers are for and against a prayer each time they are meeting. If you are talking about the places that they are allowing atheists and satanists turns, again, I feel that the people who will be offended should wait outside. That way each gets a turn, and no one needs to be offended if they do not go in before prayer ends. It would work for Christians who are offended by the other prayers too. I think a lot of the contention is that it has historical significance that should be respected, and there is an attempt at compromise by having the others do the prayers too, I expect it will settle over time and people will get used to what they have to do to live without being offended.
            Offense is used too easily. I think it should mean more than “I don’t like that”, and people need to learn to accept other people being different on both sides of an issue. Thank the Lord God, we are not all the same, but we need to allow for others differences too.
            I hope I helped you understand something new, and that you have a Great Day! Blessings!

        • MarkSebree

          When has the FFRF sued anyone for religious expression that happened on private property, excluding examples where public property was sold to a private entity in an attempt to keep the religious expression present and blatant?

          The FFRF is fighting the bullies. They are fighting those that feel that their religion givens them “special privileges” just because they are the most numerous and have all the political power in the area, so they get to push their religion onto everyone else and use the power of the government to do so.

        • Netizen_James

          No, that is pure falsehood. Doesn’t your religion teach you to tell the truth? Got facts? Or don’t facts matter because you have faith?

  • MM Avelleyra

    What the hell does a group from Wisconsin having anything to do with the state of New Mexico? You know, the signs in the heavens i.e.,the Blood Moon tetrad, the total solar eclipse, the Sept. 23 fulfillment of Chap 12:1 in Revelation (the woman clothed with the sun, etc.) exactly 40 days after today’s eclipse, the Red Nova explosion of two stars visible to the naked eye occurring in 2022 give or take a year, with a star predicted to be as bright as The Star of Bethlehem heralding Christ’s birth…how can one not say God isn’t talking to us through the stars..and warning the U.S. to repent? Many Christians believe Sept 23 will be the beginning of the tribulation and end in 7 years – when the U.S. will experience a SECOND total eclipse originating from the East coast. No one knows the exact day or time of Christ’s return, however, the signs ARE appearing. God help those who are living their OWN will and not GOD’s will.

    • paulvalery

      I read somebody else saying the same exact thing!
      Oh yeah, it was from 1200 years ago.
      And 1000 years ago.
      And 800, 600, 400, 200 years ago.
      The same crapola, over and over. When will you accept that you’ve been lied to? Your Jesus also said “ask, and ye shall receive”. That anywhere two or more believers gather together and sincerely ask for something, they will get it. So pray for the mural to reappear, issue solved…. unless your savior lied about that, too?

    • MarkSebree

      “What the hell does a group from Wisconsin having anything to do with the state of New Mexico?”

      Someone in New Mexico asked for their help.

      The rest of your post is nothing by “stuff and nonsense”.

      • MM Avelleyra

        We shall see Paul won’t we. I pray God open your eyes and heart..no one knows the exact day or time…but the signs are all there. Peace, MM

        • MarkSebree

          “We shall see Paul won’t we.”

          My name is not “Paul”.

          ” I pray God open your eyes and heart.”

          My eyes were opened decades ago in my early teens when I started reading the Bible of comprehension. I saw what a hateful, misogynistic, irrational, intolerant, authoritarian deity it was, and not deserving my my worship. As such, my heart always stayed opened, as did my mind.

          “no one knows the exact day or time”

          Of what?

          “but the signs are all there”

          What signs? More likely, you are taking your own interpretation of your own beliefs, and allowing yourself to fall for what is known as “confirmation bias”. You see what you want to see because you want to see it. And the “fact” that you see what nobody else seems to see makes you feel special and superior.

  • violetteal

    The FFRF is a terror group and people need to stand up to those bullies.

    • bartcen

      yeah..like how they bomb abortion clinics, kill OBGYN doctors, burn crosses on people’s property, invoke Psalm 109 against Obama, beat religious backsliders and apostates, and…oh wait… those are Christian terrorist groups like the KKK, The Army of God, Eastern Lightning/Church of the Almighty God, The Phineas Priesthood, The Concerned Christians, et al. as ID’ed by the SPLC.
      Sorry, My mistake.

      Now tell us more about Freedom From Religion Foundation’s acts of “Terror”.

      • violetteal

        No, they just go about wiping out our culture. Those other people aren’t Christian either.

        • MarkSebree

          Actually, all the people that barcen mentioned are Christians. They are Christians because they claim to be Christians. You do not get to determine who is and is not a Christian.

          And the FFRF is not doing anything to wipe out the American culture. They are just forcing government entities to obey the laws that are already in place.

        • Netizen_James

          If your culture and your belief is so weak that you need government support to prop it up, then maybe you need stronger beliefs.

          As Jefferson wrote: “Reason and experiment have been indulged, and error has fled before them. It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.” (Notes on the State of Virginia)

    • MarkSebree

      Nothing that the FFRF has done can reasonable be classed as causing terror among the people, and making them afraid to stand up and exercise their rights. And the FFRF is standing up to the bullies. They are standing up to the bullies that think that just because their religion tells them that they must use every means necessary to convert other people to their religion, and because they control relevant government institutions, they have the right to bully others into following their religion, no matter what the law actually says.

      The facts do not agree with your opinions.

  • Guzzman

    The Supreme Court settled this issue long ago – public schools cannot promote religious messages such as posting a mural with a biblical quote. Doing so represents an unconstitutional government endorsement of religion. The school wisely corrected its mistake and thereby avoided a costly lawsuit.

  • Nathan Z. Solomon

    Be ready for the re-write of the Pledge of Allegiance “under God” needs to be removed. It’s a Government endorsement for a religion. Because it’s capital G, it also refers specifically to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. So we need to get rid of it.

    Our money which contains, “In God we trust”. Let’s get rid of that too. It’s another endorsement of God from the US Government. Now if it had “Allah” or “fill in the blank with your favorite diety”, then that might be OK.

    People, the US Supreme court doesn’t know it’s head from a hole in the ground. They do not make law. The Constitution specifically states:

    “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”

    Notice that it really doesn’t stop people from putting murals up on public property. It doesn’t stop people from putting crosses on public property. It simply stops Congress from making laws that are for or against the free exercise of religion.

    But let’s get rid of the Confederate Statues, Monuments, flags because the politicians are all feeling their votes slide away.

    I don’t know if God is coming or not during my life time. That does not matter. What matters is that while I am on this Earth, my role is clear: “Love God with all my heart, my soul, my mind and my strength” and “love my neighbor as myself” God’s laws trump US laws any day!

    • Tangent002

      The phrase ‘under God’ was not a part of the original Pledge of Allegiance, but was added in 1954 as a response to the Red Scare. Same for ‘In God We Trust’ on paper money. The phrase had been used on some coins before that, but it wasn’t added to all currency until 1956 when it was adopted as America’s official motto.

      • Nathan Z. Solomon

        You mean it was added in 1954 by the Government? Then definitely!…it needs to be removed…at once.

        You mean Congress adopted it as American’s official motto? You mean they made a law respecting a religion? OMG!! Let’s get rid of it!!

        ———–
        Despite the truisms above, the problem is simple: fear. The MSM wants you to be afraid and they want our savior to be Big Government. In addition, Democrats want to get rid of any semblance of history pointing to their egregious acts: Of the 12 members on the Dred Scott vs. Sandford case, 10 voted that slaves were property….they were all Democrats. Of the 2 members who voted against and thus that slaves were people…were Republicans. The Confederacy was started by Democrats. So let’s get rid of all the evidence. For more information see Dr. Carol Swain’s video posted on both Youtube and Prager U.
        ——-
        Meanwhile, I’m just shaking my head, watching as people jump up and down for really no reason except that they are afraid…of everything.

        • Tangent002

          Do you really think schools are going to stop teaching about the Civil War because statues are being removed?

          That’s some boss-level paranoia there.

          Yes, Confederates were Democrats, but in the 1860s, Democrats were the Conservative party.

          • Nathan Z. Solomon

            Nope…I fully expect that they will keep teaching about the Civil War, but the focus will be on the hatred of people like Robert E. Lee, Jefferson, and Washington. Meanwhile, people like General Pickett will go unspoken of because he was on the side of the Union, even though the horror he and his soldiers caused was as bad as any terrorist.

            This is not paranoia. MSM spends 80% of its time on what brings ratings…Trump and Russia or Trump and his latest tweet or Trump and the insulting way he dealt with Jim Acosta rather than dealing with jobs and how they are increasing and how fewer illegal aliens are coming into the Country and how that more are being deported and how the MS-13 gang under Mr. Sessions is being broken down. If I were to label anything paranoid, I’d say it was CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, WashPo and NYT with all their anonymous sources.

            The word “conservative” simply means that the party, the group is interested in keeping things as they are. Slavery was good back in the day. Democrats believed there was no need to change anything…hence “conservative”.

          • Jerome Horwitz

            And the party that abolished slavery was the Republican Party. Headed by the first Republican president, Abraham Lincoln.

          • Tangent002

            Slavery was abolished by liberals.

          • Jerome Horwitz

            Yes, liberals as the word was originally defined. If you are saying the sociopolitical left, you’ve no idea what you are talking about.

          • Tangent002

            Doesn’t it hurt your eyes to constantly live in a world of only black and white?

          • Jerome Horwitz

            What? How is that relevant?

    • bartcen

      I’ll venture that with the very first reference to “Allah” , or “Satan” on a school mural Nathan would go utterly apoplectic and suddenly “see the light”.
      Public property is no place to promote or support anyone’s … ANYONE’S… religion or scripture. You want scripture on your garage door…do it. On your church..do it. On a privately owned Golf Club.. fine..put it in ten foot letters on the 9th green.

      This isn’t rocket science. How this eludes the religiously afflicted is a marvel to me.

      • Nathan Z. Solomon

        As you know, the Supreme Court’s job is to interpret the Constitution based on the case before them…for example, the baker who refused to bake a wedding cake and deliver it for a lesbian wedding. Is that OK? After all, it was in the person’s business that they upheld their belief…so far, the previous courts have all said, “No”, they they violated the law. It wasn’t that the bakers were against lesbians or gays and all kinds of people had come into their shop, ordered the cake of their choice and received it. But because a wedding cake not only requires the baking, frosting and delivery of the cake as well as the setup of the cake at the wedding and to the extent, handing of the knife to cut the cake and perhaps other items, the bakers did not wish to endorse their wedding in that manner as it was against their religion.

        So, you believe that a privately owned golf club is also safe?

        Amazing just how gullible you are.

        • MarkSebree

          Actually, it is. A privately owned golf course is not a public institution like a courthouse, nor is it a public accommodation like the bakery. They can pick and choose who their members are, and they can kick people out for any reason.

          When the bakers opened their shop to the public, they agreed, per their business license, to follow ALL applicable laws. That includes the city and state non-discrimination laws. Their religious beliefs did not matter. And by the way, I have NEVER seen the bakers present at a wedding reception to hand the knife to the couple. The knife has always been lying on the table beside the cake. The bakers are not endorsing anything when they bake a cake to order. That is nothing more than a simple business transaction.

          You are the one that appears to be gullible.

      • Jerome Horwitz

        Why not?

  • Grasshopper

    School administrators must be the biggest cowards on God’s green earth.
    And dumb about the Constitution to boot. It’s simple enough – “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” Twelve simple words, now being twisted like a pretzel.

    Anyone who thinks a Scripture quote is “establishment of religion” is a fanatic and fool.

    • paulvalery

      Or has read the Supreme Court decisions of the last 6 decades, and doesn’t want their tax dollars to go to attorneys that will hand the school their ass along with a bill for several hundred thousand dollars. You lose EVERY TIME. When are you going to just accept that the US is a great country? That you’ve been able to worship whoever you wanted, your entire life, because of the laws you don’t like?

      • Jerome Horwitz

        Do you think it is possible to express yourself at a Christian website without resorting to profanity?

        • paulvalery

          “And the lord opened the mouth of the ASS, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?” Numbers 22:28.
          You mean profanity like that?
          Don’t address the facts… that’s a good sheep. Attack one word if you can, as unholy. Even though your god used it too. It’s easier than actually having to think, isn’t it?

          • Jerome Horwitz

            Nice try, but the way you used it is as a vulgar slang term for someone’s backside, not as a synonym for a donkey or a mule.

            And it was done deliberately.

            If you could make the argument without profanity or trolling it might be worth refuting (and it can be).

          • paulvalery

            Nope. I said exactly what I said. You theists get handed your donkeys every time. Then ride them off into Humiliationville, until you raise your ugly empty heads again.
            Now, can you address a point? Without referencing talking animals, even though you think donkeys can talk. Didn’t notice that, eh?
            Do you understand that we have a government with 3 branches? Do you understand that this exact issue has been settled MANY times? Not in your favor? Why do you hate the United States?

    • bartcen

      the use of any religion’s scripture or symbol on public property(i.e. public schools, town halls, public parks, et al) has been deemed to be a violation of the “establishment clause.” as an endorsement of that religion by the government. This was settled decades ago.

      My guess is the very first time some public school allows a mural invoking Satan, you’d soil your pants and go screaming for the establishment clause to be invoked.

      Christianity..thy name is hypocrite.

      • MarkSebree

        Not quite true. It is the overt or implicit promotion or disparagement of religion by public officials and/or actors that is not allowed. Private citizens are not affected. The STUDENTS at the school can pray at lunch or on their own time all their want. They can form student religious clubs if they want, provided that the club is subject to the same rules as all the other school clubs are.

        A private citizen can get the proper permits and hold a religious rally or revival in a public part if he or she wants, or organize a church meeting there, as long as they follow the same rules and procedures as a secular group does.

        It is all about the government having remain neutral on the question of religion, no matter how many, how few, or how popular or unpopular the religion is in that area.

      • MamaBearly

        Please don’t think all Christians are the same. I’m not one to complain or make it sound like it’s my way or no way, kind of thing. I don’t believe that Jesus would agree with that kind of behaviour. We are supposed to be good people without getting angry and stamping our feet about things. So please put that Some Christians are hypocrites. Because a lot of us are not like these people you are referring to. I’d appreciate not being put into the same category as Some Christians. Thanks!

        Have a great day!

        • paulvalery

          So now, when you hear a Muslim say it’s not all Muslims, you know exactly what they are saying. What’s the response from most Americans? “Why don’t we hear from the good Muslims?” Well, MamaBearly, why don’t we hear from the good Christians? Instead, we get a constant blitz of the biggest hypocritical morons imaginable. At what point do you admit that if these people claimed to be following YOU, you would denounce them instantly, yet your all powerful all knowing Jesus remains completely silent? Why is that?

          • MamaBearly

            Exactly!! My point exactly!
            God will take care of them, but he won’t until Judgement Day, just as he won’t take care of anyone else’s sin until then.
            He wants us to be able to have the time to change our mind before we die, and to follow him.
            If the, as you say, Good Christians would stand up against the ones that shout and harass others, and are not able to cope in the World today, then God’s reputation as a hateful God would be changed to a God of Love.
            As you showed, it says the same thing as the “good muslims” that people are not willing to believe.
            With the ones that are in the media showing God as a hateful God, it stops people from wanting to know Jesus. They are sinners and will be dealt with by God.
            The thing is, these people believe in their actions in exactly the same way the terrorists do. They have decided that the way they have interpreted the bible is the ONLY way – just as the Terrorists have done with the Koran.
            I’ve been saying that we have to overshadow those Christians for ages. It’s no wonder to me that Christianity is being left behind, when people don’t know the gospel but only the hate that God has for sinners, which isn’t even true. Jesus loves all of us, even sinners. He hates the sin, because it is not of Love. Sin is harmful to the people and love will not accept sin, if it is a love of Jesus.
            God won’t denounce them during their lives here on earth, so it is up to the “good” Christians to prove they are wrong to the world. The thing is, when we do help people, it isn’t Big News and it is rarely reported compared to the hypocrites. If someone would do a news item comparing the two works done by the two “Christian” groups, maybe people would see that there is more good than there is evil.

            I do appreciate that you can see there is a difference between what I call the “media Christians” and the ones that truly follow Jesus and do good works. I too want the good ones to stand up for Christ, but it will take a push because we do not want a big thing made out of our good works. We are to be humble and not ask for any glory for ourselves, but that all glory for anything we do, be given to God for helping us to be the people we are.
            Thanks for the space to say my beliefs about it too. I really appreciate it when people recognize that there are some Christians that are not like others that put a bad name to Jesus. Christians are not supposed to be spreaders of hate – whether it is a sin they are speaking about or not, we are supposed to spread the Love of Jesus so that people will see our works, and be drawn to Jesus from the love and goodness we show. Telling people they are hated for their sin isn’t even the truth, but that is the way they feel they must speak about it.

            The way I look at Jesus is that he believes that love will remove sin from our lives if we all love each other. He told us that sin was not as important to him as Love, when he told us that love covers a multitude of sin. Sin is evil and is darkness, while love is light and will overpower the darkness. Jesus wants a world of people who love each other and because of that love we won’t sin against each other, and there would be a wonderful world to live in.

            When God allowed us to have free will, that changed what the outcome has been, but he did not want to force us to follow him, he wants people to freely choose him, and that is why he gave us free will in the first place. He felt that if we loved him, we would want him to take care of us, protect and provide for us, and if we loved each other, we would not want to hurt (sin against) someone we love.

            God bless you Paulvalery and please think of Jesus’ love as the true Jesus.

            And Thank you for the discussion.

          • paulvalery

            Christians are not supposed to be spreaders of hate? I really appreciate your attitude, MamaBearly. I want to give you a hug, I really do. But can you possibly step outside of yourself for a moment? Can you see how you, and your beliefs, look to perhaps an outsider, or even more difficult, a former believer that dedicated his life to spreading the “good news”?
            Let’s take the word of Jesus himself, shall we? Read Luke 14:26, then tell me that Jesus was against hate….
            Hate is what he demanded of his followers. If one isn’t hateful, they can’t be a Christian, according to Jesus himself! IN HIS OWN WORDS!! Yet you twist that, somehow, to him being against hate. Do you see how that can make an outsider see believers as delusional at the least, and liars at the worst? I hope you can be honest about this. The immorality of the words attributed to Jesus is one of the main reasons I gave up my calling.
            You say that god will “take care of” the sinners upon Judgement. That’s really great. Except for the victims of “sin”. What you are saying is that your god watches child molesters, with his arms crossed, doing nothing but saying “when you are done raping this child, I’m going to make you pay”. This is an omnipotent being we are talking about. A being that could stop the rape. Instead, he does nothing but says I’ll torture you forever after you’ve lived a life of raping? How in the hell is that just for the victims? Your god allows babies to be raped. He watches, and does nothing, even though he is all powerful. You’re a decent person. Me too. You and I would give our lives to protect that child, wouldn’t we? Wouldn’t you? But your perfect loving god lets the child be raped. Does nothing. Because the rapist will be punished later. HOW ABOUT THE RAPE VICTIM? Bupkiss. No help at all. That’s love? No, it’s not. Having the power to stop it and not doing so would be a felony if you or I did it. But god? That’s love… do you see the problem there? I know you’re not cool with baby rapers. But your god is… is that morality? If you say yes, I want nothing to do with you. But you don’t say yes, do you? You think your god is wrong to allow a sinner to rape an innocent baby don’t you? So, how could a loving all powerful god allow an innocent baby to be raped? There’s no explanation. None.
            Why does your god, the real god, allow his followers to appear to be just as disgusting as fundamentalist Muslims? He could stop it if he wanted. If he wanted those of us that no longer, or never, believed, to actually believe, he would punish those that deter belief wouldn’t he? He had no problem committing genocide against entire tribes in the past. But he can’t give a serial murderer or a child rapist a heart attack to save innocent babies? Is he evil, or impotent? Those are the two choices. If you allowed a rape to occur when you could stop it, I would call you evil. If your god does it, you call him all loving… does that make you appear to be more moral than an atheist such as myself? I think not. And you agree. You know you do. But you can’t admit the immorality of your god, because you’ve been conditioned to not even allow rational thought to enter into your consideration. This is the type of thing that leads to atrocities. Hitler put “gott mit uns” on his belt buckles. Christians endorsed his murderous ways. Hitler said he was killing Jews because they killed Jesus. Christians not only agreed, but assisted in the atrocities. And your god said NOTHING. Millions of innocents were killed by people believing that they were doing the lord’s work. If you were the lord, would you have said something? Would you have stopped it if you could? Of course you would. You’re a moral human being. Your god? Not so much.
            I think you are saying that free will leads to sin. And that your god gave us free will. Whether we wanted it or not… you do understand the definition of “irony” right? But let’s go beyond that. Let me ask you a question that so far, none of the priests that I trained under could answer; Does free will result in sin? Yes? Ok. So, in heaven, is there free will, or is heaven an eternity of subjection? Slavery? If heaven isn’t slavery, if there is free will, there must be sin, right? Sin in heaven? That’s your position? Or can heaven be sinless, and allow free will? If it can be true in heaven, the god could have made it that way on earth because he’s omnipotent, right? So, does free will result in sin, or is heaven filled with robots with no will? Those are the two choices your belief system offers. It’s not a good corner to be backed into, but there you are. Sin in heaven? Or no free will for eternity is heaven? You decide. Which is it?

          • MamaBearly

            Ok here you go, it’s a long one!! But I am hoping I have led you to the answers you have been seeking. God bless!

            Christians are not supposed to be spreaders of hate? I really appreciate your attitude, MamaBearly. I want to give you a hug, I really do.

            I’d be happy to return your hug! I love hugs!!

            But can you possibly step outside of yourself for a moment? Can you see how you, and your beliefs, look to perhaps an outsider, or even more difficult, a former believer that dedicated his life to spreading the “good news”?

            I will certainly do my best!

            Let’s take the word of Jesus himself, shall we? Read Luke 14:26, then tell me that Jesus was against hate….

            I have no problem answering this one.

            26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

            27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

            These above scriptures are about Jesus saying that whomever wants to be a disciple – must put God above all others in their lives, even above their family and friends, and themselves. They should be Christ-like and be willing to sacrifice for their love of God. (Our sacrifice being the honest removal of things in our lives that we loved to do, that are not within a Christ-like behaviour (sin). Giving up habits and anything that is not pure, is considered a sacrifice to God)

            It isn’t a hate per say, it is how we must love him first. It uses the word hate to represent the amount of love for God as higher than any other love we have. Any other way of saying it would not emphasis the strength of love for God as being the biggest love. Does that help you?

            Hate is what he demanded of his followers. If one isn’t hateful, they can’t be a Christian, according to Jesus himself! IN HIS OWN WORDS!!

            No, no, no, I really hope I helped to explain that so you realize that it isn’t the hate we
            automatically think of when we see the word hate. It is just showing the
            difference between the love we need to have for God and the love we have for
            others in our lives, who are the ones we love most normally.

            Maybe this will be clearer. The difference between the love he wants us to have for him is at such a high level, that it is LIKE hating those people. Does that make more
            sense?

            Yet you twist that, somehow, to him being against hate.

            I have been told I am twisting the scriptures before but I have never had anyone prove it to me. When I am challenged, I am always able to lead people to the right
            scriptures and what the context says about the particular scripture.

            I promise I am not trying to twist the scripture no matter what I say. I believe that if it
            isn’t in the bible it is not the Truth. The bible is my only source of scriptures and the way I understand it is because I have an amazing Pastor who was my personal mentor for the first 5 years of my church life. He taught me enough in the 7+ years that I have been following Jesus that I can discuss the bible here with confidence about what I am saying. I honestly believe anything I post. If I find out that I post an error, I will post that I was wrong. I do not shirk my responsibility to be truthful when I am representing Jesus in everything I do.

            Do you see how that can make an outsider see believers as delusional at the least, and liars at the worst?

            Oh I totally do. I did not come to a church until I was older, 52 to be exact.
            I lived like a Christian in most ways all my life, but I knew nothing about Jesus other than his birth commercialized, nothing about salvation, repentance, or Eternal Life.

            I met the guys from my church and was drawn to them because they were ‘good’ people. (They played soccer, and one of the first times I went, I heard one man say “Sorry” to another for taking the ball.) Over time we became friends and they asked me to visit their church. I went for a one time visit and ended up being told by God that it was where I belonged, and I really felt that way. It was an experience that will never leave me and along with some other things that I have felt His presence in my life.

            God led me to that church because I had gone to others, and never felt like they ‘fit’ me. I’ll never regret that “one-time” visit. It truly changed my life into a life that was unimaginable before that. If for no other reason, I had always doubted I could go to a church (wake up early on a Sunday?) and was not interested in religion until I met these guys and went for the visit. That day I got a thirst for God which has led me here, in the long run.

            I hope you can be honest about this.

            I have been honest to a fault all my life, and have had to learn to be careful how I state
            what I honestly feel. I tend to write a lot to try to ensure the readers will understand what I am trying to teach (because my goal here is to teach the gospel) so they won’t be confused. I do not want to steer anyone away from the straight and narrow path.

            So that is what I will do my very best to do for you and anyone else who is reading this. It just will have to be a long post because I want to reply to each of your statements as well as your questions if I can.

            The immorality of the words attributed to Jesus is one of the main reasons I gave up my calling.

            Well, I hope something I say will encourage you to see Jesus in a different light. (he is
            the light after all lol!!!) I wonder; did you come here or were you led here? What
            faith did you follow before you left? I was led here. I never posted on any comment board but the local paper before. I certainly did not expect to be preaching the gospel here.

            You say that god will “take care of” the sinners upon Judgement. That’s really great. Except for the victims of “sin”.

            You are saying that “hey God, what about the poor child who was raped”, right?
            Well, I believe that everything that happens has a reason for it. We know that the Lord loves the children of the world, so it doesn’t make any more sense for it to happen
            because of that love.
            The way I was taught is that God will put someone there to help the child, but if there is
            anyone who can dismiss that person and does, the child will not be helped by that person. There IS a reason, even if we can’t see it, God can see everything that will happen way down the road and around the bend. Someone will benefit from it in some way. Maybe it will stop a rapist from raping someone who is meant to be someone important for some reason. Maybe the child will go on and help thousands of other
            children who have been raped. We can’t know, but God does. How often do we hear
            about the children later in their lives, unless they are given media coverage, which is done – usually – to show her helping others.

            A problem I can see with your faith is the way you were taught. If you actually believed that God hated everyone – or wanted us to hate everyone – how do you explain his final 2 commandments? Or for that matter, the scripture that we all grew up with at one time: the Golden Rule. That is not counting all the other scriptures about love either.
            You see, those things should make you look at the scriptures with hate and question them in the first place.

            The other thing I think you are missing because of your questioning about this is that you no longer can find it in your heart and mind to Trust him. I trust him completely,
            so I know that if there are bad things it is because of the sin/evil in the world and that he uses everything that happens to create something good out of it, but we just can’t necessarily see it.

            What you are saying is that your god watches child molesters, with his arms crossed, doing nothing but saying “when you are done raping this child, I’m going to make you pay”. This is an omnipotent being we are talking about. A being that could stop the rape. Instead, he does nothing but says I’ll torture you forever after you’ve lived a life of raping? How in the hell is that just for the victims? Your god allows babies to be raped. He watches, and does nothing, even though he is all powerful.

            I will start this by saying that God sends people and Angels to people who need them. The child who is raped, in today’s world, is very well cared for by people who are
            specially trained to help them. The evil in the world has become very common – not just the rape of babies, but any violence, and stealing, and now a days it is even “I disagree with you” that is what starts fights; not discussions, fights. You dissed me, you did this and now I’m going to do that… A twisted version of the Golden Rule you could say.

            God would not leave a child who has been hurt like that alone. Even with the children in the war countries we hear all the time about how the Lord provided them with a way
            to escape when it was not there moments before. Or something blocking their way
            was moved mysteriously?

            Even lions appearing where they were not expected to be in time to save a group of
            Christians from terrorists. They scared them away and then left the Christians
            alone and went into forest.

            Or how about the number of accidents that had to have been God’s hand to stop people from dying, that witnesses have turned to Jesus because of the experience. The
            rescuers, or anyone who does something with love for the people who are in
            difficult situations, its God’s Glory for creating the way for it to be able to be shared.

            Ok the way I have been taught is that God was so fed up with the people of his creation
            because of the sinning and evil ways the world was turning to again, after he had already flooded the world and promised not to get rid of all mankind by a flood ever again.

            God basically, threw up his hands and said I Give UP! (Ok so he didn’t say those exact words, it was more a point I was making) You are all evil and awful people who don’t
            want me to provide and protect and lead them through a happier life, so I am going to forget about you.

            It had been prophesied in the scriptures of the O.T. about Jesus being born and that was what was promised to bring God and man back together. Malachi has a number of
            the specific reasons, and they are mostly about how the Hebrews had turned away
            from God’s statutes and had corrupted the sacrifices for sin by giving animals that were not pure – spotted animals, lame animals – and God was telling them (us) that because they did not choose to stay following him and giving him the respect he deserves as our creator and God, he would be absent until the prophecy about Jesus came into being. God did not really get involved while Jesus was on earth, as he gave all authority to Jesus, right?
            Then of course, Jesus was born. To help us make up with the God who is so angry with his creation.

            So instead of everyone being destined to hell, the people who love God can recognize their sins and repent so they can show their love to God, and be given the grace of
            forgiveness.

            Now, you have to realize that Jesus was part God (spirit) and part Mary (human/flesh). Jesus is God, but he has the human spirit as well now that he is in heaven with the
            Father. That human side is what made a difference to how our sin and our love of each other and of our love of God, and he was able to use both the powerful side to make miracles to prove he was of the Father, and the human side with human emotions (compassion) to minister to the people so they would know what the sins he was talking about, (as many sins are not always visible to people who do not know how to recognize sin), and he told everyone that loving each other is our commandment, and because we do not want to hurt someone we love, we are less likely to sin against them. Love covers a multitude of sin. You do agree with that, right?

            You’re a decent person. Me too. You and I would give our lives to protect that child, wouldn’t we? Wouldn’t you?

            Yes there are many people, not just Christians, who would die protecting a child. Jesus
            sacrificed himself for that child too. When an child dies who is too young to be considered a sinner, they go up to be with the Father. He does love the children.

            But your perfect loving god lets the child be raped.

            TBH I trust God to know better than I do no matter how it looks to me. He wants to love us, and he wants for us to be happy, so when he is seeing this, and he is probably
            looking away like he did when Jesus died, because of the fact that he does love us all especially the children. The way Jesus made it sound, someone who harms a child will have the worst torment for Eternity.

            Does nothing. Because the rapist will be punished later. HOW ABOUT THE RAPE VICTIM? Bupkiss. No help at all. That’s love? No, it’s not. Having the power to stop it and not doing so would be a felony if you or I did it. But god? That’s love…
            do you see the problem there? I know you’re not cool with baby rapers.

            It isn’t just the power and he does nothing. He told us that he would not interfere with our free will, and he doesn’t. It is the free will that gives the rapist the ability to do such a horrendous thing. All sin is done with free will, and the rebellion against God’s Word.

            God’s word will never return to him void, so if he gave everyone free will, it means he will not interfere with your choices.

            He gave us free will and will not interfere with it, so we would choose to follow him (life) and not follow our flesh (death). He wants us to choose to be good people
            essentially. The fact that he does not use his power to control everything is proof that he gives us all free will, actually. So when you choose to skip your prayer this morning, it is your free will that makes that decision. (ok so it’s not a sin, but it should still help you to understand what I am saying.)

            But your god is… is that morality? If you say yes, I want nothing to do with you. But you don’t say yes, do you?

            No it isn’t my God’s morality either. He doesn’t want awful things to happen to anyone. Not even sinners. He loves us all.

            The way I look at the world is by seeing all the evil that is running rampant and I see the Hebrews that would not keep God’s statutes. I love God and I hurt for God for how the world is today. He didn’t want all this! He wanted us to follow Jesus and be good people and have the world filled with love for everyone. He gave us free will to be able to be like that and that free will also gave people the ability not to follow him. Those are the people who do these awful things. A follower of God would never harm a baby. I am personally disgusted even with the thought of it, and try hard to block the picture from my mind when I read about these evil animals.

            That is why we must talk about Jesus’ love, about his hope of Salvation by repentance showing the love he wants everyone to have. Jesus gave his people (Christians) a way of living that only shows the goodness of Jesus, by our reflecting Jesus and his love, and the way he directed us to behave, and being a light – like opposite of a lighthouse – that draws people to us, and leads them to learn about Jesus and want to be good people, and choose to follow Jesus and that give Glory to God.

            It is the behaviour that when I was younger, I believed about Christians. In my youth, Christians around our neighbourhood, which were the majority, we could trust them to be good, honest people. They never showed hate in any way. I know I was lucky now, that the “Christians” that harass sinners were not around me. I would never have been able to turn to Jesus if the only way I knew God was that he hated me. I am Thankful that He brought me to a church who sees his love and wants to spread it, not the hate.
            Split this into 2 parts because of the length…

          • paulvalery

            Your first premise is problematic, to say the least. You say that when Jesus says “hate” the actual word, it doesn’t mean “hate”. It means something that makes Jesus seem as though he isn’t desirous of hate, you claim.
            But, if words don’t mean what they mean, then nothing can be claimed to be either true nor false, can it? Jesus said that god was his father. He didn’t mean ‘father’, though. He meant god is a pencil… see what that can lead to? I can twist anything to mean anything if I can change the definition of a word into something I WANT it to mean, can’t I? Jesus said he was the way, and the light… what he ACTUALLY meant was that if you weighed him, he would be light… You can’t do that and have a serious discussion about anything. You can claim your book means anything at that point. You see that, right? But that’s why Christians at first were executed by the church for reading the bible. For centuries. If I have some “good news” that is true, and I kill anybody that reads it, does that make me “holy”? Does that give credence to my book? I think it shows the weakness of the book, doesn’t it. Now that Christians are actually allowed to read their own bible without fear of execution, they still go to church every week, at least once. And then have bible studies, literature is everywhere describing what it means. Why does anybody need to have interpretations of something hammered into their head again and again and again, year after year? Couldn’t an all powerful god write a book that was understandable? If he had written instructions for putting a bicycle together, we’d still be riding horses, you see that right? That’s odd, isn’t it?
            Your god said he wasn’t the author of confusion. 2,000 years after Jesus, after having the meanings discussed, fought over (death and torture for centuries committed by loving Christians), and hammered into heads weekly, there are now more Christian sects in the world than there are words in the bible. And you know exactly why now that I’ve pointed it out to you. If you can make “hate” mean “not hate”, well there’s no use discussing it at all. Everybody can make it mean anything they want. In other words, you explanation makes the bible meaningless. Can you see that? I didn’t see that, until my second year of studying the history of the New Testament at university under a Franciscan. Once your eyes are opened, it’s face palm time, I’m warning you. All of a sudden, one realizes how their logic was twisted by men who said they knew things, but they didn’t know. They make you believe that you know. But when asked, in order to show you know, you have to make “hate” mean “not hate”. Now that I’m out of it, I hate to tell you this, but that kind of mental damage that has been done to you makes me furious. Not at you! I was you! It makes me furious that people pretended to know things, and passed them on to me as fact, when they didn’t know at all. They may have thought they knew something, but only because they make words mean something that they don’t. Slavery isn’t slavery. Rape isn’t rape. Genocide isn’t genocide. Killing unruly sons is moral. Eating shrimp is immoral. On and on. It’s so silly, I only hope that some day you can see what has been done to you. You’re an intelligent person, I can tell. You’ll figure it out.

          • MamaBearly

            You know what. I’m not interested in banging my head against a brick wall going through all this and proving my own side of the issue again and again and you just come back with more confrontational things.
            Just stop it.
            I allow you to have NO faith. It is not my way to force my faith on anybody. You asked me the first questions with a plea in your tone and went right into a confrontational attitude.
            I don’t have to answer to you, or anyone else but God.
            You want to have your eyes opened GO ASK GOD!
            If you just wanted to keep hitting my head with the proverbial bat, you are wasting your time.
            I disagree with the way you look at it and yes scriptures are interpreted differently by different people and I have looked at them and made my decisions on how to believe what God said in His Word by being taught by an EXPERT man of faith who was called by God to teach people about Jesus and bring them to be saved.
            I have every right to believe as you do to NOT believe and I would appreciate the respect I deserve for even considering that maybe I could help you, and then I am treated like I am in a courtroom.
            No you go your way with your unbelief, and I’ll go my way with my knowledge of the TRUTH. But trying to make others see what you see is not fair to anyone. you have no right to decide who should lose their faith. What if it is someone who is relying on that faith and you take it away and they end up in a tragedy because their faith in God was taken away.
            What is it to you, if other people believe or don’t believe. It’s no skin off your nose either way, so why are you trying to take something away from people you don’t even know. Are you campaigning for Satan, since he is the first to try to spoil anything that is of God.
            Stop trying to make the sky fall on other people and leave them to their faith. You don’t want to believe, that’s fine, it’s your right. but you do not have the right to take away another persons faith that you would never know what the consequences of them losing their faith. If you truly care about others I suggest you think about that. Some people need that to hang onto in order to survive what they are going through, do you really want to pull the ladder out from under someone like that?
            Stop and think before you try to stop someone from believing and realize that unless you know the person and why they have any faith at all, you should not be messing in other people’s lives. Not if you care about other.
            I know because I am a good person and I do care about others and I would not want to see anyone that I know be told by you that they are believing a lie according to YOU.
            If you want to prove that you are a good person, treat people the way you want to be treated and stop confronting people about their faith. I told you why my faith is strong and either you ignore it or you don’t read it.
            Be Blessed.

          • paulvalery

            There’s one other defense of your belief system that you made that, by reading your bible can be shown to be absolutely incorrect, yet Christians overlook it now as what the bible actually says shows just how ridiculous the story is, so I’d like to ask you about that here. You said that free will only leads to sin if there is flesh (I’m summarizing, forgive if I’m mistaken), but that after death, we are just spirit, so that explains away that corner that you’ve been backed into. But that is so demonstrably wrong that you have to discount large parts of the New Testament for your claim to make sense.
            Do you remember the story of doubting Thomas? He supposedly met Jesus after he arose, correct? How did Jesus prove that it was actually him? Did he have Thomas stick his finger in his SPIRIT? Think about that for a while. Now, in the resurrection story, at the moment Jesus died, there was a huge earthquake, yada yada, and the GRAVES OPENED and the dead WALKED INTO TOWN. Now why does a grave need to open to let out a spirit? (we won’t even mention that a huge number of zombies walked into a fairly major city, and not one person at the time even noted it enough to write it down. They did write down how many sheafs of wheat were imported, but nothing about dead people walking around… not strange to you?) Now, you want to claim the afterlife is spiritual, because you know you could no longer claim it is physical, as it not only is nonsensical, but we’ve been to space, we have telescopes, and no bodies anywhere. BUT THAT ISN’T WHAT YOUR BIBLE SAYS, it’s what you want it to say. The bible is VERY clear. If you took the time to study the greek and Hebrew, that’s what you discover. There’s no way around it. Not only Jesus, but Mary as well, physically ascended into the heavens, Jesus to take his seat on a throne… Seat? Spirits sit? On chairs? You’ve been lied to. If you spend enough time actually studying it, it becomes obvious. At some point, you get to the same point my theology professor got to. On the last day of my last quarter, we went to pick up final exams and get our grades. I asked my professor “Father, you taught me well, and I must have learned what you taught, as I just received the highest grade in the class. After all you have taught me, how can you believe a word of it? You know it’s not true!” His response? He looked me in the eye and said one word. “Faith”. I will never accept the word of any religious person again as a result. He knows it’s a lie. To him, faith is to aver something as true that isn’t. I call that lying. Church fathers call it faith. I want to believe a many true things, and not believe as many false things, in my life. The bible is false. Provably so. So why just throw away one’s intellect just so that an ancient book can make sense? It’s no different than reading the word “hate”, but making up an excuse for why hate doesn’t mean hate, instead of being able to accept what was actually said. It is brain damage. It’s curable, but it’s like being the drunken jerk at a party. The drunken jerk doesn’t know he’s a drunken jerk. But if somebody else is a drunken jerk, they see it right away. You see how Islam is false. You know that the belief in Zeus is false, even though it was held by the majority of humans for centuries. You know false religions exist. But you can’t see your own as others do. Like the drunk at the party. I sobered up…

          • MamaBearly

            I’ve written a reply to this, but I don’t think I will bother posting it.
            I am offended by your attitude of confrontation that seems to be more apparent with this post. I was not trying to do anything more than answer some questions that did not make me feel confronted at all like these ones do.
            I won’t lose my faith regardless of what you or anyone else says or does. I can’t stop believing in the things I’ve experienced. I am an intelligent sane (as possible) mother of 3 boys and with my husband for over 37 years. Do I sound delusional? in anything I have posted ever, have I sounded like I am delusional; I’ll tell you the answer is NO because I am not a person who is prone to delusions. I am actually a realist in a way, but we won’t get into that.
            I have experienced God in my life in ways that cannot be denied were the hand of God. I am an extremely honest person and I would never lie to the people I am trying to spread the Gospel to anyway. It would be like lying to God, and I am unable to do that, just like everyone else in the world. Hide and Seek would be easy for God when he’s it. lol!
            I feel the Joy and the Peace and the Hope of Salvation Jesus promised us in the bible, and I do most days. The spirit moves within me and leads me to what I should post here most days, depending on who I am discussing things with.
            You see, if you had ever experienced the true touch of the Lord God Almighty, you would not question anything about God. You just trust him and are loyal to him as he is to us, and faithful too. We love him because he first loved us.
            I’m sorry you lost your faith, and I appreciate that you are a concerned person about wanting to spread your belief that there is not a God, or if there is it is a hateful God, is what I am getting the idea from your posts.
            I can not continue a discussion with someone who sounds like he will question anything I try to explain just to make ME have to question my faith in God.

            I can’t lose my faith, and I assure you it is not because it is my whole life even though it is, as I could easily slip back into the same things I did when I learned about Jesus. They took up just as much time in my life. But it would be denying the things that have happened to me did happen. It would mean God had also lied to my husband and the bus drivers who have witnessed it when God does not let it rain on me. I can’t do that!
            I know that not everyone is at the level I am at; that there are many people who don’t try to draw closer to the Lord as I do. Every stage of my journey has brought me closer to God and made my faith stronger and stronger. If people want God in their lives they have to believe first that he exists. Then they need to believe that God sent his only begotten son to earth to die as a sacrifice for OUR sins, that gives us the grace to be forgiven once repented. Being told about Jesus’ love, and about Salvation by repentance, will create a desire to repent because of the love that is found when you believe, for Jesus.
            I believed in Jesus and everything he is, he was, and he will be in my future that he has planned as my destiny. There is no likelihood that my faith will be shaken by anything anyone says when they can’t take away my memories.
            I have no problem helping someone with their faith, but I did not expect to be confronted like you were reaching to make me question my own faith.
            I personally believe that by just saying “Faith” your professor said much more than that he believed in a lie. Faith is belief in something not seen. Your professor was saying that those of us who do follow the bible, believe in what God has promised us, by Faith, because he has (usually) shown evidence to make believers know that their belief was worthwhile. This isn’t in the scripture, it is in my experiences.
            “We walk by faith, and not by sight” is truly what I do because he has shown me he will be faithful to his promises to me.
            Again, I am willing to answer questions that are less confrontational and not aimed at proving your disbelief to me only to change my belief. I know why I believe, you have nothing that compares to having experienced God in your life probably because you never quite believed and if you don’t honestly believe in Jesus and his sacrifice for us all, God in your life, will not be shown to you.
            When I pray I know that because I honestly believe that the prayer will be answered by Jesus, I know it will be. I have not had my belief proven to be false yet.
            It is how you believe whether you can grow in God. The more you believe, the more you thirst for him, which means reading the bible – eventually over and over. As you learn to trust Him, your belief will be stronger and then the more you are drawn to God, the more he is drawn to you. As you grow in knowledge your faith gets stronger and the trust in God is turned to complete no holds barred trust. That is when you are closest to God. That is when the Holy Spirit will come to indwell within you, and you will have the Spirit to guide you and tell you what the Lord is wanting the person to do.
            It’s been done for centuries but people who do not believe, as always, try to make it all seem unreal because they can’t get to that point of closeness to God.

            I can honestly say that I don’t know about other religions, but I know there will be more than one church to be dealt with in the end times.
            I do know that God spoke to me and told me that I was home that first visit. It was a voice I had not heard before, and only 2 other times since, and that’s what it said “you are home now, this is where you belong”. It’s not likely that one of the members near me was doing it to me, they were too wary of me. My husband and I are the only Caucasians in our church and it took a while before they relaxed with us as members. I can’t blame them, I’ve heard some of the stories of the discrimination they have had to endure.

            So try to talk to God and trust him, believe in him and his promises. believe. that’s all it takes is an honest belief. It doesn’t sound like I can help you after all. You don’t really sound like you want help anymore.

            God bless!

          • paulvalery

            1 Peter 3:15 But in your hearts revere Christ as LORD. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect”.
            Now, can you provide an example of me being anything less than respectful in my questions? I asked you, every time I made a point, if you could see the viewpoint of one that doesn’t believe. No confrontation at all. I told you exactly why I came to find your “faith” to be not only a poor way to discover truth (you don’t use faith to know anything else, right?), but a road to some pretty gruesome morality. Rather than actually reflecting on what I stated, and giving the reason for the hope you have, as your god commanded you to do, you turn off. Perhaps you feel “confronted” because the questions I ask come from somebody who used to believe. Somebody with every bit as much information as you have regarding your beliefs, if not more, somebody who understands your mindset because it used to be mine. Yes, maybe I do know how to ask questions that make you uncomfortable, but ask yourself, where they actually confrontational? Or is that how it felt? There’s no gain in what is comfortable, what feels good. And if you want to say that you believe because you believe, and you’re not even going to consider anything else. That’s called being “closed minded” isn’t it? I repeated several times that it had nothing to do with YOU, didn’t I?
            “Can you see that?”
            “…makes me furious. Not at you! I was you!”
            “You’re an intelligent person, I can tell.”
            “I know you didn’t mean it, but you said something, because of your beliefs, that is not only offensive, but patently disgusting. I want to tell you, but I don’t want to offend or accuse you.”
            “I am so saddened that you have been duped into believing that this is moral. Very sad.”
            Read those direct quotes again, then think about the fact that you took this as confrontational. I understand why, I really do. But if you look closely, and are honest, you were offended, and I wasn’t offensive. I understand why you feel this way. I do. But it has all to do with you. Look within. You are trying to tell yourself something. For some reason your subconscious mind does not want to accept what your conscious is telling you, so you create an excuse to disengage. I get it. I used to do that too. Until I admitted that maybe I don’t know everything. Maybe the Muslim and the Zoroastrian have just as much faith as I did, but they came to wrong conclusions, proving that faith is no path to truth. Once we accept this, we must use another method to get at real truth. That is called logic. I tried to ask you some logical questions, that you are required by your belief to answer. I apologize. That’s an uncomfortable position. Realizing that things you have accepted as true might not be so is not comfortable.
            You close by saying you were trying to “help” me? Thank you for the condescension. First of all, who says I need “help”? I didn’t ask you for help, I asked you to explain the reason for your faith, in the face of what your holy scriptures actually say. No strawmanning. No ad hominem. No appeal to authority, no name calling, nothing but respectful questions. How does it feel to be required to answer questions, yet refuse to do what god told you to do?

          • MamaBearly

            It is the tone of your post that i have said I am offended by and this post is no different.
            YOU were the one that made the first post sound like you wanted help. Read it again so you will see how you wrote it.
            I will not be confronted by you or anyone else who just wants to make me lose my faith.
            You are being evil by even pushing your own beliefs on others.
            Did I say ONCE that you MUST conform to my beliefs when I explained them to you.
            Did I word my post to actually be condescending or did you just make it that way because I am frustrating you by not being compliant and questioning my love for my God.
            Screw you!
            You want to hate for your own reasons go ahead. I am not one of those Christians that force my belief on ANYONE. So don’t act like you are trying to do me a favour.
            Personally I think anyone who wants to destroy anyone’s faith IN ANYTHING is a despicable person. If you want to live without faith, go ahead, but that does NOT give you the right to make other people question their faith.
            I am not going to be a way for you to push your agenda to others. You’ll have to find someone who is already questioning their faith instead. Good luck with that here.
            Do you always get confrontational with people who have made it obvious that they just want to help? You can’t have missed my desire to help you understand. It was not condescending because you made it sound like you were confused.
            Why would you treat someone who was trying to be a good person towards you, like they are lying and stupid, instead of thanking them for their attempt to give you some comfort.
            I don’t need anyone like you in my life and I am in charge of who is in my life and who isn’t. I pray God shows you that he is real and makes it impossible to be able to ignore.

            Good bye.

          • paulvalery

            Now I hope these are being posted in the order I responded, because I don’t want this to be the fist one you read. I hope you’ve read the other two, because I know you didn’t mean it, but you said something, because of your beliefs, that is not only offensive, but patently disgusting. I want to tell you, but I don’t want to offend or accuse you. I know exactly what you mean, and why you said it, but again, I ask you to step outside your belief for a moment, and think about what you say as if you were an outsider.
            You predicted that I would bring up a raped child. Because you know it is disgusting, and that if you, or I, had to give our own lives to stop such a thing, we would do so without thought. But you’re god isn’t as moral as we are. He stands by and watches. And you? You excuse it. You say there is a “reason” for that baby to be raped. HOW DARE YOU. I ask you, will you go to the side of a mourning mother and father, and tell them that their baby was raped and killed for a reason? That your god planned it that way, so he had to watch the entire act? He’s everywhere. All the time. So he watched every second of that baby’s torture. Can you imagine ANYTHING more perverse? And you call this beast moral, in fact claim that we can’t be moral without loving the pervert that watched this act. Think about that very hard. Your god is offended enough by a teenager backtalking his parents that he made a rule that the kid should be taken to the gate of the city, and stoned to death. But a baby raper? Well, there’s a reason for that. The depths that your religion takes you to is almost unimaginable. Defending the murder of a sassy teen, and the being that just watched a baby be raped to death, at the same time. This turns my stomach. I am so saddened that you have been duped into believing that this is moral. Very sad.

          • MamaBearly

            Reply part 2 because of the length

            You think your god is wrong to allow a sinner to rape an innocent baby don’t you? So, how could a loving all powerful god allow an innocent baby to be raped? There’s no explanation. None.

            You could not even imagine how many times God has turned a rapist away by diverting him or the victim so it can’t happen? He does that with accidents too. Dropping things
            on the ground may seem annoying at the time, but if you knew that if that had not happened, you would not have gotten to work at all, instead of just being late. A driver could have been set to drive right over you, but God stopped you so it would not happen.
            When he allows awful things to happen, he knows something we don’t know about what will be changed because of that awful thing, but God does. It might mean that someone picks up the fight and does more to end violence like that. The point is, God
            uses things that happen on earth to lead some to have something else happen. He
            can’t interfere with our free will, but he can have us drop things to make us be 5 minutes later getting to that particular intersection. He can lead us into safety and we can be totally unaware of what we were saved from.

            He has blessed me in many ways and especially in ways that would not have happened without it being of God. I don’t ever wonder if God is alive, or if he loves me. I know he is there and I know that when I pray for help, I get it, he has never failed me. He has taken longer than I would have preferred to wait at times, but he has honestly never failed to provide for me what I ask for, and he has always helped us through with sudden money, with help when we needed it. How can I ever not trust and have faith in Jesus.

            My eyes were opened by God to what he does in my life. Too many things that can’t be a coincidence.

            Why does your god, the real god, allow his followers to appear to be just as disgusting as fundamentalist Muslims?

            I will not even hazard a guess because of who he is. We can’t know God’s mind, he is too high for us to understand the way He thinks.

            He could stop it if he wanted. If he wanted those of us that no longer, or never, believed, to actually believe, he would punish those that deter belief wouldn’t
            he? He had no problem committing genocide against entire tribes in the past. But he can’t give a serial murderer or a child rapist a heart attack to save innocent babies? Is he evil, or impotent? Those are the two choices. If you allowed a rape to occur when you could stop it, I would call you evil. If your god does it, you call him all loving… does that make you appear to be more moral than an atheist such as myself?

            Most people are moral from the early years with their parents and in past generations children were taught properly about right and wrong, and selfishness.

            I think not. And you agree. You know you do. But you can’t admit the immorality of your god, because you’ve been conditioned to not even allow rational thought to enter into your consideration.

            Actually, when I first started at my church, the Pastor was a friend of mine previously, and when we were talking close to the first time that I should decide for myself from what I am taught about what to believe and what not to. Now I realize that he feels that if God has called me then I will understand and believe what I choose to believe because God will give me the ability to, but he will not make me choose the beliefs that he wants me to believe, he knows me and he brought me to a church that meshed with how I believed in living.

            This is the type of thing that leads to atrocities. Hitler put “gott mit uns” on his belt buckles. Christians endorsed his murderous ways. Hitler said he was killing Jews because they killed Jesus. Christians not only agreed, but assisted in the atrocities. And your god said NOTHING. Millions of innocents were killed by people believing that they were doing the lord’s work. If you were the lord, would you have said something? Would you have stopped it if you could? Of course you would. You’re a moral human being. Your god?

            My God: Appears to be Not so much. But appearances can be deceiving. He told the people that He would not interfere with their free will. That goes for evil and good. He is the God of both whether they believe or not as he is our creator. (He doesn’t have to wonder if we are real, because he was the potter of the clay.)

            I think you are saying that free will leads to sin. And that your god gave us free will. Whether we wanted it or not… you do understand the definition of “irony” right?

            Free will is something that the flesh uses to be sinful, yes. Free will CAN lead to sin, but
            it can also choose to do the right thing vs. the wrong thing.

            Without giving us free will, he would have to direct every person through everything that was done.

            We would not be able to choose what dress to buy, or what shoe colour matches the dress best.

            We might not be able to have a day off at the beach, if the Lord was in control of
            Everything.

            We might be happy because it is a part of the control, but God wanted us to be honest about loving him and wanting to be his. He wanted us to love him so much that we
            would trust him and have faith in him and rely on him. He gave the Hebrews everything to prove that he could give them the life he was offering them in the Wilderness. If he could drop manna from the sky and make water come from a rock, would you not believe that he is God and that he IS ABLE to do everything he said he would for his people.

            It was Free will that made them complain about everything in the wilderness too. I’m pretty sure God does not want to hear a lot of complaining since he told us not to in
            scriptures.

            But let’s go beyond that. Let me ask you a question that so far, none of the priests that I trained under could answer; Does free will result in sin? Yes? Ok. So, in
            heaven, is there free will, or is heaven an eternity of subjection? Slavery? If heaven isn’t slavery, if there is free will, there must be sin, right? Sin in heaven? That’s your position? Or can heaven be sinless, and allow free will? If it can be true in heaven, the god could have made it that way on earth because he’s omnipotent, right? So, does free will result in sin, or is heaven filled with robots with no will? Those are the two choices your belief system offers. It’s not a good corner to be backed into, but there you are. Sin in heaven? Or no free will for eternity is heaven? You decide. Which is it?

            I pick door number… no actually I pick neither of those sides.

            In heaven we are spirits, with no flesh. Free will of the Spirit would not be able to sin in heaven, and it is the fleshy side that does sin, not the spiritual side. Our fleshy side stays in the ground and rots.
            We must be in the spirit to be able to go to Jesus. Our earthly body will not
            be going, as we only needed it here on earth.

            Paul, Jesus came to die so we could repent for our sins, and be given the grace of
            forgiveness.
            He also came to minister to the people, along with his vice-presidents in charge after Christ’s death, the Apostles, and the men that would be doing most of the leg work, the Disciples.
            Along with the teachings about what things are sin, and that the punishment in all cases of sin not repented for, is death, or in our belief, hell and torment for an eternity.
            Which is for people who are evil and any love that they showed in their lives was not enough to take away the darkness (evil).

            When Jesus told us that love covers a multitude of sin, it was telling us that people who are good generally, and loved in their lives, might be justified to be saved. If we
            only have 100 sins in a lifetime, but lived for 90 years and showed love to many, many people during that life, the light of the love will blot out the darkness in the heart.

            He also wants us as Christians to all behave in a good manner to tell the world that Jesus is a loving God, and that they will want to find out why and come to Jesus and be saved.

            We are the light that leads people to the biggest light – Jesus.
            Some churches teach that the 2 commandments are all we have to do to receive salvation, but when you think about what “good people” are, not everyone who is Christian are “good people”; do you think they will be chosen to have the hope of Salvation come true for them?

            That’s something too, as Jesus said, not all who come to him and say Lord, Lord, will
            be known and the various times they ignored Jesus, which they did not understand and denied ever not serving Jesus.

            It is saying that these people, who are probably Christian, will not be granted Salvation
            because they are not doing the things that Jesus showed us by example, or taught us orally. Jesus was saying that whether it is Jesus, or another person, we should care enough to check on them and help them. We should not just pass by a person in need if we can provide something that will help. That doesn’t mean you give the homeless you see every day every penny/ nickel out of your pocket, but that if you can manage any at all, you should, and if that means you don’t have money for all of them, try to
            start from the other end the next time you help out. All Jesus wants is for us to love everyone. When you love someone you show that love in ways that range from obvious to subtle. When you see someone in need, find out if you can help. Just the fact that you express your concern will do a lot of good for some who has no one.
            There was a point made that it is not just good works, nor just faith that give us
            salvation, and that is very true, but it is still a way to show how Jesus lived, loved and helped others. There is no law that says we cannot help others. There shouldn’t have to be.
            The Fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5, tells us how to live our lives with certain things
            being in them,
            Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, Gentleness, Goodness, Faith, Meekness, and Temperance.
            Feelings of the Heart: Love, Joy, Peace,
            Relationship with Others: Longsuffering, Gentleness, Goodness,
            Relationship to God & the Word: Faith, Meekness, Temperance

            These things are not in the bible to make it more interesting; they teach us what Jesus
            wants us to be like, but they are not commandments. Again, free will is in the equation.

            I’m sure there are many things that “could” be what Jesus meant by the expression Hope of Salvation, but it sounds to me that it is not a guarantee to anyone (not even
            the Elect) and each of us are tested at some time or other to see if they “feed Jesus” or “clothe him”. If we are not automatically helping others, as best we are able to, we are leaving Jesus in the cold. And he might not know you when you call Lord, Lord.

            As far as sin in heaven goes, spirits can have free will, but they will not the fleshy part
            that is about the sin. It is the fleshy part that goes against God’s Will to sin.

            That is why some Christians will not be saved. They can’t trust God and have the faith that he will fulfill every promise he made. They feel they need to be involved with everything that involves sin, and there are far too many times that we can barely make a dent in the way life is going now.
            Jesus taught us about how to behave with a purpose. He did not command us to behave like he taught us, but he told us how important it was for us to spread the gospel. Some Christians do not believe, or maybe they were not taught, about the behaviour Jesus wants from us, and some things are subtle and need referral to other scriptures for proper understanding.
            It used to be called Christian behaviour, or Christ-like behaviour.
            When we reflect the goodness and Love of Jesus people will be drawn to him and be saved (that is a very simplistic way of saying that.)
            I believe that when Jesus decides who actually followed what he said to do they are who will be saved. It is not a hardship to be a good person; to act with love towards
            everyone; to help and care for others. To be kind in all circumstances.
            I believe that everything in the Gospel is there for a purpose, and our behaviour is one of major focus in what Jesus taught.
            You know, some churches are too focused on other people’s sin. They should be worrying about their own and only helping when it is in obvious need, or if someone speaks to them about something.
            We have to be more about love to show the love that Jesus has for everyone. Our behaviour shows how we love Jesus. God IS love; God is a loving God.
            That is why I believe that the ‘Christians’ that teach the public that God is a hateful God, are committing blasphemy. They are giving Jesus a bad reputation that is a lie and should be stopped.

            If you have any questions I am more than willing to do my best to help you with them. I hope I covered everything for you, if I missed anything please post it for me again.

            Also I wanted to let you know that I appreciate that you asked me these questions and I pray that it will help you to understand that (and this sounds like an insult, but it is only true for God not for anyone else). God is too High and Mighty for us to even come close to knowing what or how God thinks. All we have to go by is the Bible. Some Pastors might be able to help you with something in the bible that will be a tool for the situation that you need help with, but I’m too new to know that kind of thing. I go to an expert for that.
            May God bless you with the answers you need. In Jesus’ name I pray, Amen.

    • Netizen_James

      Any and all promotions or encouragements toward any religious belief on the part of any government entity is a violation of the establishment clause. Government has no business promoting any theological concept, even one as ‘generic’ as the concept of a ‘soul’, as an ‘officially correct religious belief’. The very idea of a ‘officially correct religious belief’ is offensive to the principles of the USA.

      What part of the following quote do you think is false? Do you really want to give government the authority to promote reincarnation or pantheism as the ‘officially correct’ beliefs?

      “The ‘establishment of religion’ clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever from they may adopt to teach or practice religion. ” (330 US 1)

      • Jerome Horwitz

        The whole thing is false. It was Hugo Black that said the alleged establishment clause meant the state should be protected from the church, never mind the phrase “separation of church and state” does not appear in the Constitution at all, whether in whole or in part, implied or explicit. Only from 1947 on has judges looked at the First Amendment as saying the exact opposite of what it actually does say.

        • paulvalery

          Only since 1865 has slavery been illegal. The bible endorses it. Slaves, obey you masters, Jesus said. So, by your logic, slavery is still legal, right?

          • Bezukhov

            Don’t give them any ideas.

        • Netizen_James

          No, there is nothing ‘false’ about it. The founders intentionally and explicitly rejected efforts to add ‘God’ or ‘Jesus’ to the Constitution. Note well that neither of those words appear in the defining document of our nation’s government.

          The original purpose of the establishment clause was to prevent the federal government from changing which religions were ‘established’ by existing state governments. Leaving the State of Maryland free to collect taxes to support the Catholic Church, while the Commonwealth of Massachusetts was free to collect taxes to support the Congregational Church. But, just as ‘All men are created equal’ didn’t originally intend to include blacks or indians or women, we have expanded the meaning of the establishment clause as well as our understanding that black and/or female people also have rights.

          So – do you really want government having the authority to promote polytheism and reincarnation as the ‘officially correct’ religious beliefs’? If the school put up a mural of Ganesha with a quote from the Vedas about how we will all be reincarnated into new bodies after we die, would you be copacetic with that? Or do you think that the government should only be allowed to promote YOUR religious beliefs as the ‘officially correct’ ones?

          If the latter, can you not see how myopic and selfish that is? What part of that reflects Jesus’ command to ‘do unto others as you would have them do unto you’? Did you miss the point of the parable of the ‘Good Samaritan’? Should we re-write it as ‘the Good Hindu’ so that you can figure out what Jesus was trying to get across?

          • Jerome Horwitz

            You know, I was all set to write a long response to you, but then I had an epiphany: It doesn’t matter what I say. The truth is, you hate religion in general and Christianity so much, you are willing to tell an outright lie about how our Founding Fathers hated religion as well.

            The idea that we, as a nation, should live without religion is Marxist to the core. And if there was one thing Washington on down were not, it’s Marxist.

            This conversation is over.

  • InTheChurch

    Just paint over Hebrew 6:19 and problem solved. Or, do they have an issue with the truth about a soul?

    • MarkSebree

      They would have to paint over the verse as well.

      And just because you have an opinion about whether or not a soul exists, or its deposition does not mean that the school has the right to impose your views onto other people’s children. Your opinion on the matter is not the “truth” since it is not objective.

      • InTheChurch

        There’s nothing wrong with that quote. Remove the Hebrew reference and done deal.
        Truth that the soul exists or it does not exist?

        • MarkSebree

          Can you objectively prove that a soul exists? Is there reasonably objective reasons to suppose it exists and we just do not know how to detect it yet?

          The fact that its is a quote from a book of religion makes it suspect. The fact that it mentions a religious concept which has no basis in reality, i.e. a “soul”, even more so. And the fact that it was previously labeled takes it over the edge of legality.

          • InTheChurch

            Well, dumb but good example, is how much love do you have inside of you, in milligrams? Show love to me. Where is it? We see the affects of it in our hormones, brain cells, blood flow and arousal but where is it? what color is it? If you have no hard evidence for love, explain how you love?
            The soul is the same thing. I believe that love is part of your soul. That also includes hate, anger and all those feelings you have no hard evidence for. So do you possess those feelings? Where are they in you? Do you have a soul? I look at the soul as the battery charger or energy in your car. We see the effects of it but can you see the energy? Professor John Lennox of Oxford said that science can not prove or see energy, we know it exists. I can keep going so I will stop now.

          • Jerome Horwitz

            I think the question here is more: Would you want the quote removed because it makes reference to a soul?

            It doesn’t matter if it came from the Bible or Tito Nieves.

    • Netizen_James

      Got any empirical evidence to prove that ‘souls’ exist? Didn’t think so.

      • InTheChurch

        Got empirical proof that love exists? don’t think so

  • Barefoot

    They remind me of old maids who watch their neighbors all day.
    People with no lives of their own always poke into other people’s business.

    • MarkSebree

      You mean the ones who keep trying to put religious quotes onto and into public buildings like schools and courthouses? Yes, they should mind their own business and stop trying to force their religion onto other people.

      The FFRF stands agains those bullies that seek to use the government to endorse their personal religious views, and make other people follow them no matter what the religious beliefs of those people are.

      • MM Avelleyra

        That group who is so crybaby over every little thing being offensive is such a small minority when most of the majority have spiritual convictions. We are sick and tired of acceding to those who say our lives and our beliefs in God don’t matter. You and your ilk will willingly fight for diversity yet the Christian community is one of the biggest diverse groups of them all – you hypocrite . Do your research: the founding father’s based this republic UNDER GOD. And do yourself a favor too; read about what happened to Madalyn Murray O’Hare and Christopher Hitchens who were such God haters. They abandoned God – and once you do, anything can happen, not of His will – but are the end result of the human will one chooses to follow. I feel sorry that your heart is a heart of desolation.

        • Netizen_James

          As Founding Father James Madison said:
          “The establishment of the chaplainship to Congs is a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles: The tenets of the chaplains elected [by the majority] shut the door of worship agst the members whose creeds & consciences forbid a participation in that of the majority. To say nothing of other sects, this is the case with that of Roman Catholics & Quakers who have always had members in one or both of the Legislative branches. Could a Catholic clergyman ever hope to be appointed a Chaplain? To say that his religious principles are obnoxious or that his sect is small, is to lift the evil at once and exhibit in its naked deformity the doctrine that religious truth is to be tested by numbers. or that the major sects have a right to govern the minor.”

          It sounds like you think that ‘majority rule’ trumps every other consideration, even the rights of the individual. So when the majority decides to prohibit the publication or possession of The Bible, you will have no standing to oppose this decision. Is that really what you want? Or do you simply assume that people who believe exactly as you do will always happen to enjoy the happenstance of a demographic majority?

        • MarkSebree

          “That group who is so crybaby over every little thing being offensive is such a small minority when most of the majority have spiritual convictions.”

          Actually, the group exists to protect the individuals and families who understand the law and the ideals of American society from the venom that the “Christian majority” so often spews. The US Constitution, especially the First Amendment, was written to protect the rights of the minority from the will of the majority. And the minority often also has spiritual convictions, just different and more egalitarian ones that you do.

          “We are sick and tired of acceding to those who say our lives and our beliefs in God don’t matter.”

          Actually, your beliefs do not matter to anyone except you. You are the one that seem to think that everyone else’s beliefs do not matter since you want to force your beliefs onto them and their children without regard for what their beliefs actually are. Them telling you that they are not interested in your beliefs and do not want to be subject to them does not affect your beliefs at all nor does it prevent you from following those beliefs.

          “You and your ilk will willingly fight for diversity yet the Christian community is one of the biggest diverse groups of them all – you hypocrite .”

          And you are ignorant. The most common religion of the people who have filed complaints against the imposition and overreach of Christians into the government institutions have been Christians. They are the ones that are fighting to allow others of different denominations as well as different religions to worship or not worship as they will without interference.

          I am not a hypocrite. You can worship however you want. You just cannot impose your beliefs onto others, and you cannot use government institutions to further your beliefs, and especially you cannot use public schools to try to convert the children of those that do not believe as you do.

          “Do your research:”

          I have. You are proving yourself very ignorant of history.

          ” the founding father’s based this republic UNDER GOD.”

          You just showed that you have not done your research. The Founding Fathers studied history as well as current events, and they knew how divisive religion was. That is why they created a country which was completely secular in its government, and included provisions in the original Constitution and in the First Amendment to keep religion and government separate. The Treaty of Tripoli, which was negotiated under George Washington, passed unanimously by Congress, and signed by John Adams, explicitly stated that this country was not founded under any religion. (Para. 13 of the Treaty).

          This country was founded under the principles of equality and the teachings of Enlightenment.

          “And do yourself a favor too; read about what happened to Madalyn Murray O’Hare and Christopher Hitchens who were such God haters.

          Actually, they were not “God Haters”. They simply did not believe that any deity exists. They did not hate what did not exist. And I know what happened to them, and to many others who challenged “Christian privilege”. They showed the true face of Christianity to the world. They were subject to lies, vandalism, death threats, ostracism, assault, intolerance, and many other ills that Christians seem to exhibit when someone calls for them to obey the law. They showed why people like you need to be opposed and fought. They showed that people like you are hateful, intolerant, irrational, insensible, misogynistic, dishonest, tyrannical, unjust, and a host of other ills.

          “They abandoned God”

          You cannot abandon what does not exist.

          “but are the end result of the human will one chooses to follow.”

          And they stood up top oppose the tyrants. They stood to support the minority who were opposed by the majority.

          “and once you do, anything can happen, not of His will”

          Something that does not exist cannot have a will. And the same things happen anyway. An imaginary being cannot affect reality.

          “but are the end result of the human will one chooses to follow.”

          Everyone chooses their own path. They make their own decisions. That includes the choice of people like you to prefer a closed mind and a closed heart, rather than embracing the diversity of life.

          ” I feel sorry that your heart is a heart of desolation.”

          Sorry, but unlike you, my heart is a heart of compassion and understanding. I have rejected the desolation and intolerance that your beliefs encourage. If you want to feel sorry for someone with a “heart of desolation”, then feel sorry for yourself.

          • NCOriolesFan

            If you’re so offended by religious freedom, go live in a religious free country like North Korea.

          • Jerome Horwitz

            The US Constitution, especially the First Amendment, was written to protect the rights of the minority from the will of the majority.

            The First Amendment gives people the right to free speech as well as freedom of religion, which are not and was never meant to be mutually exclusive.

            Actually, your beliefs do not matter to anyone except you.

            And apparently atheists, as they are so determined to stifle the expression of those beliefs.

            You are the one that seem to think that everyone else’s beliefs do not matter since you want to force your beliefs onto them and their children without regard for what their beliefs actually are.

            And the irony here is lost, is it not?

            What would one call it when a single person objects to mentioning God or Jesus? They don’t like it, so they make sure that no one can talk about them. Ever.

            Who is forcing their beliefs unto whom?

            If you don’t agree with what someone is saying, you can walk away, you can hold your ears until they are done. But nobody is forcing you to listen.

            The most common religion of the people who have filed complaints against the imposition and overreach of Christians into the government institutions have been Christians.

            Liar. In nearly 100% of cases, the identities of the people who made the complaint in the first place is made unknown, so it is impossible to know the beliefs of the complainants beyond atheism.

            This country was founded under the principles of equality and the teachings of Enlightenment.

            But not atheism, unless you think this is the USSR.

            Actually, they were not “God Haters”.

            Sure, they were.

            And I know what happened to them,

            As do I: O’Hair was kidnapped and murdered, Hitchens died from cancer. How is that relevant?

            They showed that people like you are hateful, intolerant, irrational, insensible, misogynistic, dishonest, tyrannical, unjust, and a host of other ills.

            Project much?

          • Netizen_James

            Do you really want the government having the authority to promote reincarnation as the ‘officially correct’ theological belief regarding the afterlife? Yes or no.

          • Jerome Horwitz

            Non-sequitur.

      • NCOriolesFan

        It was a GIFT from a former teacher a the school. Nothing imposed upon anyone except the bigots at FFRF and the complaining parent.

      • Jerome Horwitz

        So you are a bully if you wish to mention God and Jesus in a public setting, which is not only a constitutional but a human right, but not squelching that right?

        Would you be one of those people who think religious speech should be restricted to the home and church?

  • Netizen_James

    Why is it that whenever people are complaining about FRFF, they always say ‘Wisconsin based’? I never hear anyone talking about the NRA as ‘Virginia based’. Why the different standard? Or is the point to emotionally manipulate the reader by trying to paint the controversy as being due to ‘outsiders’, rather than practicing objective knowledge-based Journalism?

  • Netizen_James

    Heather – do you really think that the Massachusetts Bay Colony has anything whatsoever to do with the USA? It didn’t. And doesn’t.

    Do you really not know that the Constitution for the United States of America contains not even ONE instance of the word ‘God’? Not ONE instance of the word ‘Jesus’ either. No, our Founding Fathers carefully left us a SECULAR government – one that recognizes and protects the rights of ALL citizens to religious liberty – which necessarily includes freedom FROM ‘government religion’. Why on earth would you people want government religion? That’s what ‘sharia law’ is – government religion. It is anathema to the principles of America, which was founded on the separation of civil from ecclesiastical authority. Do you want the government telling you what to believe or how to worship? No? Do you want the government to promote the idea of reincarnation as the ‘officially correct’ afterlife stance? No? Do you want the government to promote polytheism, or pantheism? No? So maybe you should consider the ‘golden rule’ and do unto others as you would have others do unto you. This means keeping the clumsy, blood-stained hands of GOVERNMENT off of religion entirely – promoting none, prohibiting none, endorsing none, enjoining none. That is the only way to protect everyone’s religious liberty.

    • Jerome Horwitz

      Are you serious?

  • NCOriolesFan

    Gifts mean nothing to bigots.

    BTW, GOD MATTERS too.

    • Netizen_James

      ‘Gifts’ have nothing to do with the issue. The issue is that government is forbidden from promoting or encouraging any religion or belief. And that public schools are part of the government, and therefor public schools are also forbidden from promoting or encouraging (or discouraging or punishing!) any religious belief.

      If God matters to you, that’s great. Praise Him in your home, in your church, on public billboards, and better yet, in your life as a Witness to God’s love of all of His children.

      But if you don’t want the government to have the authority to promote the worship of Shiva or Odin, and don’t want the government to have the authority to promote reincarnation as the ‘officially correct’ religious belief, then you must not allow the government to promote YOUR religious beliefs as the ‘officially correct’ beliefs either. Everyone’s religious liberty depends on government being prohibited from religious promotion.

      “Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you”. Matt7:12; Luke 6:31

      Why is that so hard and so controversial, even now 2000 years after that’s what Jesus told His followers to do?

  • Dbrothers Wtrcradio

    FFRF this is a Jewish organization that HATES MESSIAH YESHUA. THEY MUST NOT BE COWARD TO

    • Netizen_James

      No, FFRF is not a “Jewish organization”. Got Facts?

      • Dbrothers Wtrcradio

        yes look up the founder of this demonic organization. he is an unsaved Jew who hates the Jewish Messiah Yeshua. for the most part ffrf does not attack anything jewish only things with NT wording. look it up for yourself

  • Paperboy

    Yeah, and then they ask Christians to vote in favor of school bonds! When one votes FOR bond issues, one is voting for leaders such as those in Clovis who desecrated the mural in the school in this article. If it can happen in Clovis, it can happen in YOUR town/city! Oh yes it can!!

  • Bezukhov

    What’s the point of this mural? Does somebody think that when the little kiddies see it they’ll all want their heads dunked under water?