Over 150 Evangelical Leaders Sign ‘Nashville Statement’ Affirming God’s Design for Sexuality, Marriage, Gender

Photo Credit: Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood

NASHVILLE, Tenn. — More than 150 evangelical pastors, seminary and college professors, ministry leaders and others have signed a declaration known as the “Nashville Statement,” which affirms God’s design and intent regarding sexuality, marriage and gender identity.

The Nashville Statement, which is an initiative of the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood and the Southern Baptist Convention’s Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, was released on Tuesday and features 14 short proclamations, or articles, arranged in constitutional form.

The statement, while pertaining to homosexuality and transgenderism, also speaks universally in regard to God’s desire that all mankind remain sexually pure until marriage and notes that the Creator distinctively designed the woman to complement the man and bear the couple’s children. It additionally addresses the requirement for faithfulness within the marital covenant, which is to mirror Christ and His bride, the Church.

“We affirm that God’s revealed will for all people is chastity outside of marriage and fidelity within marriage,” Article 2 reads. “We deny that any affections, desires or commitments ever justify sexual intercourse before or outside marriage, nor do they justify any form of sexual immorality.”

It also notes that man’s inherent sin nature draws men to thoughts and desires that are antithetical to God’s expressed will.

“We affirm that sin distorts sexual desires by directing them away from the marriage covenant and toward sexual immorality—a distortion that includes both heterosexual and homosexual immorality,” Article 9 outlines.

“We affirm that God has designed marriage to be a covenantal, sexual, procreative, life-long union of one man and one woman, as husband and wife, and is meant to signify the covenant love between Christ and His bride the Church,” Article 1 declares.

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The Nashville statement further attests that God made man and woman “distinct as male and female,” and that the “divinely ordained differences between male and female reflect God’s original creation design and are meant for human good and human flourishing.”

“We deny that physical anomalies or psychological conditions nullify the God-appointed link between biological sex and self-conception as male and female,” Article 5 reads, adding in Article 7, “We deny that adopting a homosexual or transgender self-conception is consistent with God’s holy purposes in creation and redemption.”

The statement also affirms that it is the Christian’s responsibility to speak the truth in love, as Christ is able to save and transform every man and woman who will repent and trust in Him.

“We affirm that the grace of God in Christ gives both merciful pardon and transforming power, and that this pardon and power enable a follower of Jesus to put to death sinful desires and to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord,” Article 12 proclaims.

“We affirm that Christ Jesus has come into the world to save sinners, and that through Christ’s death and resurrection, forgiveness of sins and eternal life are available to every person who repents of sin and trusts in Christ alone as Savior, Lord and supreme treasure,” Article 14 continues. “We deny that the Lord’s arm is too short to save or that any sinner is beyond his reach.”

Read the statement in full here.

Burk

Signees of the Nashville Statement include Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary; Paige Patterson, president of the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary; Paul Nyquist, president of Moody Bible Institute; Kevin Ezell, president of the Southern Baptist North American Mission Board; John MacArthur, pastor of Grace Community Church in California and president of The Master’s Seminary and College; J. D. Greear, pastor of The Summit Church in North Carolina; James Dobson, founder of Focus on the Family; Bob Vander Plaats, president of The Family Leader; Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council and Joseph Backholm, president of the Family Policy Institute of Washington.

“The spirit of our age does not delight in God’s good design of male and female. Consequently, confusion reigns over some of the most basic questions of our humanity,” Denny Burk, the president of the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, said in a statement. “The aim of The Nashville Statement is to shine a light into the darkness—to declare the goodness of God’s design in our sexuality and in creating us as male and female.”

While the Nashville Statement has been met with some criticism, including from Nashville Mayor Megan Barry, who remarked in a tweet that the declaration “does not represent the inclusive values of the city and people of Nashville,” others have noted that to reject the doctrines outlined in the statement is to essentially reject the Bible and Christ Himself.

“Anyone who persistently rejects God’s revelation about sexual holiness and virtue is rejecting Christianity altogether, even if they claim otherwise,” Burk explained. “Or as the apostle Paul puts it, ‘For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality … Consequently, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you’ (1 Thess. 4:3-8).”


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  • Amos Moses – He>i

    Progressives Appalled As Christians Affirm Doctrine Held Unanimously For 2,000 Years
    August 30, 2017

    U.S.—After numerous prominent Christians and everyday believers alike signed the Nashville Statement affirming basic Christian doctrine held with rare exception for 2,000 years, progressives across the nation flooded the internet in droves to voice their horror and disgust at the shocking set of beliefs.

    “I can’t believe these people would just come out and blatantly state something Christians have unflinchingly agreed on for millennia,” one liberal Christian wrote on Twitter. “It’s absolutely beyond callous.”

    “I literally just can’t even,” she added later.

    Secular humanist scholar Zeke Reddington agreed, stating on his Patheos blog that for Christians to publicly affirm historically Christian ideas was “unthinkable.”

    “It’s 2017, for crying out loud. I can’t believe we have to deal with people who disagree with us in the current year!” he wrote in his insightful 8,000-word blog post.

    At publishing time, the many bigoted backers of the Nashville Statement had still refused to apologize for their horrific act of affirming beliefs that most progressive Christians evolved beyond at least two or three years ago.

    • Jim

      The only 2000 year old Christian doctrines are that of the Catholic Church. All other christian “churches” are no more than 500 years old.

      • Peter Stone

        Not all Christian churches are Protestants who came out of the RC Church during the 16th century. And Catholicism only started during the 4th Century when Emperor Constantine in AD.325 promoted a mixture of Christianity & Roman Paganism in attempt to unite the Roman Empire. True Christians never joined this church and that’s why they were severely persecuted by Rome. Anyway, many independent Bible Believing Evangelical churches (Baptist, etc) today trace their roots back to the Apostles & Jesus Christ and not to the Protestant Reformation.

        By the way, if the Catholic church is “Apostolic Church” then why does it teaches doctrines that contradict Jesus and His Apostles ?

        • Jim

          Right. So you think Emperor Constantine has greater power than the Holy Spirit. Since Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would teach all truths through his church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. Constantine couldn’t destroy His Church, neither could Napoleon, or Martin Luther, or Satan himself. The Catholic Church is the same today as it was on Pentecost Sunday. Any church to have a claim to be true must be able to say the same. Everyone else misses the mark by at least 1500 years.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ML did not try to destroy the church …. that is a lie ….. he tried to turn it back to its roots of scripture …. and that part of Gods church still survives …… and ML WAS AN RCC CATHOLIC …………

          • Peter Stone

            TRUE!! The gates of hell shall not prevail against the true Church of Jesus Christ (Matt 16:18) But the Roman Catholic church was never a Christian church. And If the Catholic church is the “Apostolic Church” then why does it teaches doctrines that contradict Jesus and His Apostles ?

            – Purgatory
            – Mass – the continual sacrifice of Jesus Christ

        • Garbage Adams

          It doesn’t teach doctrines that contradict Jesus and His Apostles. Also, Peter was the first pope – “on this rock I will build my church”. It’s somewhat ironic someone named Peter Stone doesn’t know this already.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            so much is wrong with what you just wrote …. it is hard to even begin …….

          • Garbage Adams

            Thanks, that’s all the validation I need to know it was good and valuable.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            The true church was founded on Christ and the Holy Spirit. That is the rock that Paul says it was founded on. Peter never made any claim to being the rock the church was founded on. That was all corrupted leaders in Rome.

            In the OT, when the Israelites were in the desert and needed water, Moses was instructed to strike a rock, a very large rock, and water came out. Paul says that was Christ. The water that came out was the same water Christ referred to when He was at the well and the same water that came out when He was pierced on the cross.

            1 Corinthians
            10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
            10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
            10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
            10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

            Also see Exodus 15 and 17. The Cross is the wood in 15 and the boulder in 17. Both are foreshadowing Christ.

            Also, the word used when referring to Peter, Cephus, is a tiny pebble. The word used as Rock, a massive stone, when Christ said Matthew 16 and there is a change in the words used:

            16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

            Peter (Cephus)
            G4074
            Petros
            pet’-ros
            Apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than G3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle: – Peter, rock. Compare G2786.

            Rock
            G4073
            πέτρα
            petra
            pet’-ra
            Feminine of the same as G4074; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively): – rock.

          • Garbage Adams

            Fundie nonsense.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            scripture ………

          • Garbage Adams

            Scripture with a “twist”.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … no lemon or lime added ………..

          • Garbage Adams

            Or, to take a cue from the way people on this forum speak, it’s not scripture…it’s “scripture”.

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        baloney …. there has always been a church that has embraced the scriptures and the scriptures alone ………. even 2000 years ago ………

    • NCOriolesFan

      Did anyone expect anything different from so-called ‘progressives?’

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        well it was a satire piece, but it is funny ….. because it is true ………..

  • Amos Moses – He>i

    Thank you Heather ……………..

  • mr goody two shoes

    Its the Nashville creed. We all know it is a creed. It majors in minors .its not wrong its just not majoring in the majors . That Jesus took the sins of the world away.

    • Mark Sonntag

      If this came out of the blue, I would agree with you. But many churches are caving to the zeitgeist. If we lived, and actually we do live, in a world where the culture was affirming murder, the a statement by believers against this would be in order.

  • mr goody two shoes

    The Nashville creed is typical reformed protestant dribble unlike the other christian creeds it takes ones eyes off Jesus and places them on one self what we are doing .the other historical christian creeds keeps one eyes on Jesus what he has done! .compare them if you don’t believe me.

  • mr goody two shoes

    Also The Baptist Nashville creed is made out of Gods laws that cant save any one even if a person marries the opposite sex. The other historical creeds are the saving gospel about Christ..

    • Amos Moses – He>i

      it is not a creed per se ……… it is a statement of common beliefs of christians ….. does not really rise to the level of a “creed” ………. a creed would be more encompassing in its coverage ……………

  • MCrow

    “Anyone who persistently rejects God’s revelation about sexual holiness and virtue is rejecting Christianity altogether, even if they claim otherwise.”

    This kind of doctrinal absolutism is why there are so many denominations in the US all claiming to be the “one true church.”

    • Amos Moses – He>i

      nope … they claim God only has one true church ….. and it is dispersed among all churches … and it is invisible ……… or at least the honest ones do ……… there are false and true believers in every church ……….

      • MCrow

        I think Assembly of God and Calvary Chapel still make that claim. And stating that anyone who doesn’t follow a speicific doctrine laid by a church cannot be a Christian is, theologically, no different.

        • Amos Moses – He>i

          they can claim whatever they please ………. and it is all the difference in the world ……..

          • MCrow

            What is the difference between saying “we are the one true church: anyone else is doing it wrong ” and “this is our doctrine, anyone who disagrees with us is doing it wrong”?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            God only has one true church … and it is dispersed among all denominations …. there are true and false believers in every church … Gods church is not contained by any one of them …… and it is only comprised of the elect … His chosen people …… and He knows who they are and where they all are ….. if it is not Gods revealed doctrine …. then it is false ….. and that is why it is written down …… and always has been ……..

          • MCrow

            Fun! I take it the one true church always agrees with your opinion?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope …. they all agree with GODS opinion … which is not really an opinion ……

          • MCrow

            And I’m guessing you always agree with God, right? So that means what you say is what God says?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            do i always agree with God … Yup ….. “So that means what you say is what God says?” ….. ummm …. nope ….

          • MCrow

            So if someone disagrees with you, do they disagree with God?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            depends on what the topic is …….. probably …. but there are lots of topics that are not of a specific biblical nature ……… but they tend to the delusion of the other person ………………

          • MCrow

            I love that you say that there are topic people can disagree with you on, but if they do, they’re delusional.

            Thank you, you’ve answered a lingering question I had on the nature of your god

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            no … you had no question …. you continue to follow your nature …. which is selfish self interest ……… and nothing more ………

          • MCrow

            Yep. That’s me. Mr. Selfish. Volunteering to help with disaster relief and raising funds for the homeless. Meanwhile, your God won’t change my nature because, according to you, it brings him no glory. But I’m the selfish one

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            sure … you do all those wonderful things ….. for all the WRONG reasons ….. according to your nature ….. your own selfish self interested nature …. good works are nothing …. they mean nothing …. and you would not do them if it WAS NOT in your own selfish self interest ……. so color me not impressed enough to pat you on the back ….. you break your own arm doing that right now trying to show the world how wonderful you are ……….

          • MCrow

            Providing counterpoints to you declaring me selfish. I do so to help my community. Your god damns people to hell despite him controlling all outcomes because he’s not being glorified enough.

            At least my selfishness has positive outcomes.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            see … your own selfish self interest ………. stands right out there …..

          • MCrow

            Again, you argue that your god damns people to hell despite being able to save them for his own glory. That’s eternal damnation because otherwise he’s not popular enough. And you’re calling me selfish

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            they damn themselves to hell ….. and god allows them to do it by not intervening ….. they are allowed to fully express their “free will” and follow their selfish self interested nature …… and they love it …. and … YOU LOVE YOURS ……… so i really do not know what you are belly aching about ……. what this life offers is WHAT YOU WANT ….. and you are GETTING JUST EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT ………. so i do not understand your issue …….

            is God for His Glory …. YUP …. because He is God ………. and we are not ……….

          • MCrow

            Yet we don’t have free will because god already knows what happens, so we are predestined. The last thread got nuked, so here we are, back again. You can’t have both a god who knows exactly how everything will turn out and free will. Not an issue for me, since I think your god is just a projection of your beliefs, but might be an issue for you

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            no .. YOU do not believe in God …. so why are you here arguing about it ……… apparently it is a HUGE ISSUE for YOU ……. God is the only one with true free will …. and He can choose to act … OR NOT TO ACT ….. according to his desire …… not yours or mine ……

            but again …. what do you care ……….

          • MCrow

            I don’t, really. I need something to pass time on breaks, though. But you’re right, I don’t believe in any god. I just don’t like the way you pass judgment on folks who didn’t get a decoder ring in their cereal boxes.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            then why are you here arguing about Him …. if you truly believe He does not exist …. then walk away … it does not matter ……….

          • Garbage Adams

            What happens when they disagree with you, but agree with God?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i do not even know what that looks like ……… do you ……..

          • Garbage Adams

            For sure. It’s when you think you’re doing what God wants but make a mistake. As human beings are known to do.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            sure … but not terribly specific ……

          • Garbage Adams

            I’m sure it’s happened. Law of averages.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Liberal Christians Figure They’ll Go Ahead And Accept Polygamy As Well
            September 6, 2017

          • Garbage Adams

            Parody headline, your point being?

  • james blue

    I wonder how many of the 150+ can honestly say they’ve been “pure”

    • Amos Moses – He>i

      christianity is not about purity ……… so strawman ………..

      • james blue

        Apparently it’s not about self awareness either.

        • Amos Moses – He>i

          it is not ……. its about the cross and about our salvation in Christ Jesus ….. and His sacrifice for us as He lived the perfect life that we are not able to do …. and His imputed righteousness to us and removing Gods wrath from us that was transferred to Him ……..

          • james blue

            Wow, that couldn’t have gone further over your head if it was written in the side of Voyager

          • brucewang

            He is an artful dodger.

    • No one but Christ is pure for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

      It is not about being pure. It is about countering a huge lie from satan that is leading MILLIONS into Hell and eternal damnation. It is also about those of us that are sickened by the total degradation to our society/country/families because of the breakdown of the moral fabric that plays a large part in holding the affore mentioned together.

      • brucewang

        It’s really nothing more than a list of people who refuse to accept what science has been saying for decades. New discoveries that show we have been wrong about something for a couple of milennia don’t mean anyone s going to hell. It means progress.

        • Mark Sonntag

          Actually, psuedo-pop-science. The western world has forgotten what science is and what it aint. But what can you say. The powers that be create/pervert religions to further their ends, this psuedo-science is the latest. IMHO the world is through trying to pervert the church and will now try and destroy it.

          • brucewang

            I wouldn’t call it pseudo pop science any more than the Trumpian nonsense of calling respected news outlets like the New York Times and Washington Post “fake news”. We know the good science because it demonstrates its own accuracy.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and how do you know it “demonstrates that when you do not know the truth …….. more malarky ………..

          • brucewang

            I know what truth is. Truth is what can be proven and shown to be truth. Your problem is you don’t know the difference between truth and faith.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … truth is the MEASURE of science ….. NOT the other way around ….. truth is knowable without any support of anything …… it stands on its own …… gravity does not have to be proven to know gravity IS …… no math or logic or “science” is going to make it any more or any less gravity ….. you either accept that it is ….. or you fall to your death ……… have fun with your fall ……….

          • brucewang

            Would you like to explain to me how you come to know truth “without any support of anything”? It seems to me that if you want to know the truth, you need to use facts and data to find it. And once again, in your case, that means using faith – which doesn’t work, because faith isn’t truth.

            Incidentally, we know about gravity because of science…not because of religion.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            gravity exists …….. you KNOW it exists …. you do not NEED the math or any other thing to KNOW this ….. ANY CHILD of the age of ONE YEAR KNOWS THIS ……… it does not have to be VERIFIED ….. other than falling on your butt ………

          • brucewang

            So what you’re saying is we have proof of gravity. I know that, and I never argued that. What we don’t have though is proof of God.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i am saying no proof is EXPLAINABLE to a one year old CHILD that KNOWS about it …. and EVERY ONE of them KNOWS gravity exists ….. and it is pointless to explain something to a person who KNOWS something already but DENIES it ….. as you do with God ……….. and we are not going to engage in a debate about something that is not debatable ….. like GRAVITY ….. OR GOD ……….. the insanity of such a suggestion that we do so …….. only affirms the insanity of the person making the claim of His nonexistence …….. and to engage in that debate with you would only confirm that we are equally insane ….. enjoy your insanity …….. i choose not to partake …………

          • brucewang

            You need to stop telling people what they believe. If they say they don’t believe in God, it’s because they haven’t got anything that qualifies as proof. You can prove gravity by stepping off the roof of your house.

            God is debatable, how can you say otherwise? They are hundreds of books written on the subject. Not that long about there was a very well-known debate between Ken Ham and Bill Nye. Are you going to seriously tell me Bill Nye is insane? And that he actually DOES believe in God but is just being rebellious? Come on.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you are here … TELLING PEOPLE WHAT TO BELIEVE ……….. and you have told us and told us and told us WHAT YOU BELIEVE ……….. so i do not know what you are talking about ….. do you ………..

          • brucewang

            I don’t tell anyone what to believe. And I don’t do the far worse thing that you CONSTANTLY do which is tell people you don’t know and haven’t met what they believe. If you want to know what someone believes, ask them. Don’t tell them. Because you don’t know.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            YOU have told US ….. your statements are a TESTAMENT of what YOU WORSHIP …. that which you hold in esteem is what you worship …. you worship science and you worship yourself ……

          • brucewang

            My statements are a testament of what I believe, and it’s all based on what has been presented and proven to be true. Nothing I believe is a statement of anyone’s faith.
            That is YOUR department.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “My statements are a testament of what I believe”

            and what you believe is WHAT YOU WORSHIP …….

          • brucewang

            “What you believe is WHAT YOU WORSHIP”

            If you want to go through life believing bizarre statements like that one, be my guest. What a tyrannical faith you must follow.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “In the psychology of human behavior, denialism is a person’s choice to deny reality, as a way to avoid a psychologically uncomfortable truth”

            more denial ……….

          • brucewang

            “What you believe is what you worship.” You said that. Not me. I believe it’s a nice day outside, therefore in your world that means I’m worshiping the weather.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            BTW … Bill Nye …. DEFINITELY INSANE if his recent antics are any indication ……

          • brucewang

            He’s an extremely intelligent man.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            WAS ………….

        • Amos Moses – He>i

          you do not know what science is ………. so just another one of your lies ………

          • brucewang

            I know precisely what science is. To willfully deny science takes a religion.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            to deny God takes another FALSE GOD ….. as science is to you …. i FULLY EMBRACE science ….. as it is GOD CREATION …. not mans … all you have is another self made idol that you worship BLINDLY ……… no christian has even one thing to fear from true science ….. but until you know the truth ….. which is the MEASURE of science …… you know nothing as truth or otherwise ….. and all that makes your vision of science, is a false god ……

          • brucewang

            To deny a God takes NO God in its place. Science isn’t God and doesn’t claim to be. Science is methodology we use to come to know the truth about things. And as I’ve stated to you several times, there’s nothing blind about what I use – everything is proven beyond a doubt. If it wasn’t, I wouldn’t believe it.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you have replaced God ….. with a CREATION of God …. you WORSHIP His CREATION instead of the CREATOR ……… you are a liar and you are delusional for not recognizing what you have done and continue to do ………..

          • brucewang

            I worship nothing, and it’s very tiresome to hear you keep telling me that I do.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you worship SCIENCE … a creation of God …. and it is OBVIOUS from every continued statement you make on the topic at hand ………..

          • brucewang

            I follow and respect science. I don’t worship it. I worship nothing.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you worship it …. and the only thing you worship more is yourself ……….

          • brucewang

            I worship NOTHING.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            lies ….that which you hold in esteem is what you worship …. you worship science and you worship yourself ……

          • brucewang

            I worship nothing, Amos. Get over it.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            more lies … you not only worship it …. you BLINDLY worship it ….. and you do not even recognize that you do …….

          • brucewang

            I worship…………..NOTHING.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “In the psychology of human behavior, denialism is a person’s choice to deny reality, as a way to avoid a psychologically uncomfortable truth”

            just more denial ……….

          • brucewang

            I worship nothing. Fact. Reality. I deny only what isn’t proven to be true.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you worship science and yourself …. and your statements only cement the belief ……..

          • brucewang

            No one worships science. And by the way, BLIND FAITH is all yours.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you worship science …… and yourself …. mostly yourself …….. and it is blind on all counts for you …….

          • brucewang

            No one worships science. It is impossible. There is no one/nothing to worship.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you worship it everyday … so it is possible ………… you also worship yourself …….. you are not “nothing” ……..

          • brucewang

            I think somebody (OK, you) REALLY needs to buy a dictionary. And “worship” is the latest word you need to learn the definition of.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you do not understand what worship is …. and the dictionary is not the path to understanding it ….. pot smokers worship pot ….. they will do anything to get it if it is important to them …. that is worship …. you do not have to go anywhere to do that …. they worship the glow at the end of the joint, and the curls of smoke as it burns, and they worship the smoke as it is inhaled into their lungs and then exhaled and the feeling they get from it …… it is all worship ……

          • brucewang

            Pot smokers worship pot? No, they enjoy it.

            Tell you what. Why don’t you tell me what YOU think “worship” means?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            they worship it … as you worship science … and yourself ……….

          • brucewang

            They smoke pot because they enjoy it. People eat food because they enjoy it. People keep pets because they enjoy them. People sleep because they enjoy it. People go to movies because they enjoy them. People listen to music because they enjoy it. Nobody “worships” pot, food, pets, sleep, movies or music. Worship is reserved for deities. In your case, that is God.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            they worship it …. it is the most important thing to them ……..

          • brucewang

            Those are two completely separate statements. The first is bizarre. The second is believable.

          • Bob Johnson

            Or in the case of tobacco and climate change, a large amount of money invested that needs protection from reality.

        • God and the Truth of His Holy Word does not ebb and flow according to the whims of mankind. He and His Word are eternal, holy, righteous, true and unchanging.

          • brucewang

            Scientific discoveries aren’t whims, no matter how much you choose to treat them as such.

          • So God being our creator and being all knowing did not know about this so called scientific discovery when He said that same sex sex aka homosexuality is a sin?

          • brucewang

            He never said that. But believe me, I understand why you want to BELIEVE He said that.

          • Leviticus 18:22New King James Version (NKJV)

            22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

            =========

            Romans 1:18-32New King James Version (NKJV)

            God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness

            18 For
            the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and
            unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and
            changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like
            corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

            24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who
            exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the
            creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

            26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise
            also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their
            lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and
            receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

            28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[a] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[b] unmerciful; 32 who,
            knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such
            things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of
            those who practice them.

            ==============

            1 Corinthians 6:9-10New King James Version (NKJV)

            9 Do
            you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
            Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers,
            nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

          • brucewang

            Male prostitution.

          • Same sex sex is forbidden by the Words of God in every passage that the subject comes up regardless of the circumstances or the context of the passage.

          • brucewang

            That’s fine. Same sex sex isn’t always homosexuality. Which makes your position unbelievably dishonest if the passages refer to male prostitution.

          • It is all a part of sexual immorality which is sin.

          • brucewang

            Isn’t it funny how when someone says “homosexuality” you focus on the sexual aspect, but you don’t do the same thing when someone says “heterosexuality”. I think that’s pretty telling.

          • That is because homosexuality is a perversion and those that believe in it are “in your face about” it and singing it’s praises to others.

          • brucewang

            That’s a bad stereotype. For every “in your face” homosexual there are probably at least two more who just want to live quiet lives and not get beaten up by religious thugs.

          • Amen.

            One word brother: reprobate. And you know what, I’ve searched the word and NEVER found one scripture with Jesus arguing with a reprobate.

      • james blue

        Ah yes, but I tire of thrice married cheating scumbags lecturing everyone else as if their sins were some different or excusable.

        • Amos Moses – He>i

          all sin is excusable as Christ paid that penalty for us ….. those of us who have accepted Him as Savior and been grated repentance that is …. even the homosexual ….. but we do not get to wallow in our sin and be saved … that is not repentance …. that is just a lie ……. and it makes no difference who it is ………….. not even you ………

          • james blue

            Yet they seem to think the sins of others are not excusable.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            they are inexcusable without repentance granted by Christ and the Holy Spirit ……..

        • That is nothing but hyperbole.

          • james blue

            Yet not all that rare.

          • You’re right. Hyperbole is not all that rare around these parts.

          • james blue

            Sigh.

          • brucewang

            Don’t feel bad, you tried. I thought you were going to get through to him for a minute there.

      • Amen.

  • TellinIt

    From God’s standpoint, as per the plain reading of the Biblical texts, the Nashville Statement is in sync with the Scriptures and, therefore, above reproach.
    From culture’s standpoint, this Statement is very needed in an age of spiritual, moral, sexual, and gender confusion, largely due to the neglect of churches and seminaries teaching on these topics.
    So, in my opinion, these drafters have done good by God and for people, no matter what the critics may say.

  • I agree with the Nashville Statement and I am one of the signers.

    • Garbage Adams

      You don’t mind being in the vast, vast minority?

      • LOL

        • Amos Moses – He>i

          he actually thinks the crowd of the world is bigger than Christ ….. but we are in the “minority” ….. as if numbers make them right …… i would laugh also if it was not so pitiable ……….

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        Nope ………….

    • brucewang

      I do not. I wholeheartedly reject “The Nashville Bigotry” and will fight against it.

      • Whatever helps you sleep at night….

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        what a hateful and intolerant and bigoted thing to say ………

        • brucewang

          That means SO much coming from you, Mr. “Homomarriage”.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            homo MIRAGE …. because it is not real and it is a MIRAGE ……… some trick on your mind …….. an optical ILLUSION ……

          • brucewang

            An optical illusion which the whole world minus yourself manages to not only see but deal with as reality with no trouble whatsoever.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            just because a number … even a majority … believes a LIE ….. does not make it the truth …. truth is not determined by majority …….

          • brucewang

            Or there is the possibility that it’s not a lie at all, that you are the one who is clinging to a lie, and are being a sore loser because the marriage is recognized as legit by everyone else. And that probable INCLUDES your God.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            but it is a lie ………..

          • brucewang

            99.9% of the world disagrees with you. Which is how you like it, right? All that crap about a camel going through the eye of a needle?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “99.9% of the world disagrees with you.”

            SO WHAT …. if i am a minority of ONE …. the truth …. IS STILL THE TRUTH ………

          • brucewang

            Amazing. And STILL not a glimmer that you might be the one who’s completely wrong, misinterpreting your own holy book, and acting with supreme arrogance.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i could completely be wrong …. if i depend on myself …. i do not … i depend on God …. and He is never wrong ………..

          • brucewang

            And ANY OTHER CHRISTIAN could say the exact same words you just said…a Christian who believes, as you do, they they alone have the correct understanding. There is no difference between you. 2 billion Christians with 2 billion understandings.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and it would depend on what they said and if they can back it up properly with scripture …… only one understanding matters … Gods …….. His words …. only His understanding counts …..

          • brucewang

            Infant baptism.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            what about it ………. actually forget it ….. you have no idea about baptism …. we will not discuss a topic you have no basis for an opinion ……..

          • brucewang

            Never mind my opinion. Most Christians practice it. A loud minority do not. Are the ones who you disagree with in this situation false Christians? Out with it. No more dodging.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignored ….

          • brucewang

            Try ignoring it next time.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignoring …….

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “they they alone have the correct understanding. ”

            never said by me … and you are lying again ……..

          • brucewang

            Oh Amos, you KNOW I’m not lying. You sound like every other self-righteous Christian who alone thinks they know what God wants, and you know there must be ten thousand different ways of interpreting scripture, what with all the translations, retranslations, etc. Rapture for example, real or nonscriptural? Some Christians think one thing, some the other. Which camp do you fall in, and what makes you think you are right?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            so all you are now left with is false accusation and ad hominem attack ….. you cannot prove even one of your assertions ….. and you are left with “neener, neener, neener ” and a shotgun approach to attack christianity …….. and it took you 4-5 days to completely fail in your attempts …. and you still know God exists … and you have convinced no one ….

            you know ….. you would have saved a lot of time if you had just jumped to this point a long time ago …. it was your only reason for being here from the beginning ………

            time to go watch My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic ….. and Bizaardvark ….. as this is getting very boring now ………. and then maybe i will watch Dragon Ball Z Kai …..

          • brucewang

            There’s nothing ad hominem in what I am saying. Probably what’s happening is you are getting frustrated because it’s apparently beyond you to give an honest or straightforward answer to anything so you tap dance, dodge, weasel, bebop and scat your way around every question that’s put to you.

            Christians all believe they are going God’s work. But you seem to have nothing but disdain for Christians who have different understandings than you do and you claim you are the one following God correctly and they aren’t. Given how many factions of Christianity there are in the world and how nobody can agree you would be honest at least if you’d address that problem, but you don’t. You’re always right, and everyone else is always wrong. That’s not ad hominem. That’s not an attack. That’s what you are doing.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignored …………

  • Jacob

    There christians are fighting oever their genders clarification and how all are men or women which some atheists want to erase this distinguishing feature…here in india people are dying of not ever hearing salvation there is no debate over who is man or who is women that question doesn’t even appear here all know men and women are separate and both gender cant be merged…how perilous times we live in…anyway my love and greetings for believers in america…you have come up with a nice creed…i have read it
    here…those who dont accept council of Nashville are not christians at all…from india with love…

    • Amos Moses – He>i

      amen brother ………..

    • Amos Moses – He>i

      God has sent them great delusion so that they would believe a lie ………… as they have rejected the truth …….

      • Jacob

        I pray for lord’s guidance for believers in america…please pray for people ofy nation india who are dying in hopelessness and misery by thousands daily without hearing the message of salvation…please pray..

        • Amos Moses – He>i

          thank you my brother …. many here think we have got it all together ….. we need your prayers as much as you need ours … maybe more so ……….

  • Jim

    If scripture was self-explanatory like Protestants claim, then there would be no need for a Nashville Statement. This statement self admits one of the very tenants of Protestantism is false. The very false notion of sola scriptura is why Protestants have denominated into 40,000 flavors in just 500 years. There is only one,universal, and apostolic Church that goes back 2,000 years to the beginning. Catholic.

    • Brand New Key

      Most Protestants agree that there is only one church, the one that goes back to the time of the apostles.

      We just don’t believe it is the RC. The true church exists wherever (as Jesus put it) two or three are gathered together in Christ’s name, people who follow the New Testament. Only God knows people’s hearts, so only God knows which people are part of his universal Church. No doubt there will be many RCs in heaven – along with Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Pentecostals, and many others. To identify the true Church with any one denomination is absurd.

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        the church invisible ………..

        • Jim

          Now we know how adds to the bible. Nowhere does it say the Church is invisible. I understand for your definition of church to be true then it would half to be invisible. But that’s not what Jesus said. He established a real, meaningful Church, on Peter.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            hmmmm ….. so if Peter were the important one …. then WHY are there only two epistles from him ….. and WHY does Paul become the more center of the church and scripture and PRIOR to Peter in scripture with the PAULINE epistles ….. and 1&2 Peter is only considered of the MINOR epistles ….. and there is no mention of Peter as the leader of the church but JAMES the brother of Christ is seen in scripture as the main figure head and the issuer of certain documents in Acts ……… sorry … Christ did not come to save sinners and to wrest man from the clutches of MAN-MADE religion only to then turn it all over to other men …. Christ is the head of HIS church ….. not some potentate in Rome …….. and the true church is invisible …. it is the collection of all believers …. the lambs Christ has had drawn to Him by the Father and gathered by Christ to salvation …. who then remain close to Him but move and scatter under His protection …. the church is the collection of those people and may not be visible from afar …. it is not resident in buildings or institutions ….. although they may meet in such things from time to time ……..

      • Jim

        Jesus put His Church with Peter. Jesus said He was present when 2 or more people gather in His name, but that is not a Church according to the bible or anyone’s common sense definition.

    • Bob Johnson

      Coptic

    • Amos Moses – He>i

      “If scripture was self-explanatory like Protestants claim, then there would be no need for a Nashville Statement”

      scripture is ….. MEN do not accept scripture ….. MEN love the darkness ….. MEN bring their own idolatry to the scriptures ……. INCLUDING the RCC ….. Fail ……….. the only thing men have are the scriptures …. scriptures are Gods word and the word is God ………. and scripture backs the idea that the scriptures are what we are given to know God as He has spoken to His people ….. God DOES NOT speak to those who are not His people ….. they are not capable of hearing His word ….. as they are not His sheep ………

    • Peter Stone

      If the Catholic church is the “Apostolic Church” then why does it teaches doctrines
      that contradict Jesus and His Apostles ?

      Here’s an example:

      Mary as Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate

      But the Bible says…
      JESUS is the ONE & ONLY MEDIATOR, INTERCESSOR & ADVOCATE
      1 Timothy 2:5 – For there is one God and one MEDIATOR between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus

      Heb 7:25 – Therefore He is able also to save to the uttermost those who come unto God by Him, since He ever lives to make INTERCESSION for them.

      1 John 2:1 – My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an ADVOCATE with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

      Also, the Bible condemns prayers to Mary & the dead saints; bowing to idols; etc.(Exo 20:4,5 & 1Tim 2:5)

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        Luke
        11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
        11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

    • NCOriolesFan

      Protestants worship Jesus. Catholics are fixated on the Holy Rosary and the Pope. Hence the differences between the 2.

      • Garbage Adams

        They aren’t “fixated” on the rosary, which is just a simple (and OPTIONAL) aid to prayer, nor are they “fixated” on the Pope any more than southern baptists are “fixated” on Al Mohler Jr.

  • InTheChurch

    How many of these signees are Trump’s spiritual advisers?

    • What does that have to do with anything?

      • InTheChurch

        President and people in DC don’t see it the same way.

        • This has nothing to do with anything, stop pulling all ready.

          • InTheChurch

            Don’t like it, don’t reply. Like I said, DC and our President don’t see it the same way.

          • Don’t like getting called out on your stupidity don’t post.

  • Amos Moses – He>i

    Brian Houston Issues Bizarrely Vague Statement on Sodomy-Based Marriage
    BY NEWS DIVISION · SEPTEMBER 5, 2017

    A “postal plebiscite” is Australian for “a democratic initiative.” In the United States, certain matters may be decided by a direct democratic vote of the citizenry rather than by representation in the legislature (although only on the state level, and only in certain states). Similarly, in Australia, a “plebiscite” is the practice of letting people vote directly on a particular matter (but is done on the national level). The term “postal” refers to the means of voting, which will be through the mail. A postal plebiscite is non-binding in Australia, meaning that it is more of a consensus-making resolution than binding legislation.

    Australia has been – like the rest of the Western world – fighting an internal cultural battle over the nature of marriage. Chiefly, Australian leftists want the politicians to legalize sodomy-based marriage without polling the people. The more conservative Turnbull government wants the Australian people to give their opinion through a plebiscite first, confident that the population as a whole is more conservative than the elected politicians. The Australian Senate declined to approve the Prime Minister’s request for the plebiscite and causing much controversy, the Prime Minister has proceeded with a “voluntary plebiscite” which would cost less money to perform, but liberals claim that the results will not reflect a wide enough representation of Australia because young people (this is their actual argument) don’t know how to use the postal system. So, in the Land Down Under, this controversy has been all the rage.

    If Australia would just model itself after United States government corruption, sodomy-based marriage could be in the hands of five judges and the liberals could bypass the legislature and the People altogether. Anyway…

    Hillsong pastor, Brian Houston, has made a statement in relation to the upcoming postal plebiscite. Houston’s waffling on the topic of sodomy-based marriage has many conservative Christians on edge, knowing that it will be tough for Houston to hold the line on sodomy-based marriage while maintaining the inclusive sin-affirming mission of his church. Pulpit & Pen exposed Hillsong New York’s gay choir directors several years ago, and produced the famous “Smoking Gun” footage of Brian Houston speaking of the gay choir directors the year before Carl Lentz (Hillsong New York’s local pastor) claims to have discovered it and “dealt with it.” In spite of the evidence that Hillsong knew about their gay choir directors and just didn’t care, Dr. Michael Brown claimed that it all amounted to “Internet rumor.” Even after the Smoking Gun footage was released, Brown hasn’t made a retraction. Needless to say, Houston’s vacillating on the topic sodomy has made many Australians nervous about where the megachurch leader would be in the debate over sodomy based marriage in Australia.

    Worry no more, because Houston has released a statement.

    To be very clear, Houston writes that “God’s word is clear that marriage is between a man and a woman.” He also writes that “Paul’s writings on homosexuality are also clear.”

    However, there are some problematic statements from Houston as well. He writes…

    “Sadly some also use Christianity to alienate and even condemn those who are gay and dismiss their desire to pursue happiness. As a Christian pastor, I will always teach and preach according to Scripture and my personal convictions, but I cannot make other people’s choices for them. God created humanity with a free will, and I care about all people including those who believe differently to me.”

  • Trilemma

    Why doesn’t the Nashville Statement have Bible references like the Baptist Faith and Message?

    • Amos Moses – He>i

      i think you are right that it would have been a good addition ………..

  • MCrow

    Question, then: they note that sex must be procreative. If a husband or wife is sterile, does that mean no sex? Contraceptives prohibited? And if someone disobeys, are they, as stated, not really Christians?

    • Amos Moses – He>i

      sterile according to whom ….

      • MCrow

        Doctor? I know one guy who can’t have kids. His body doesn’t produce any sperm. At all. He couldn’t even do artificial insemination because his testes literally have no sperm inside.

        • Amos Moses – He>i

          i know many people who were told they were sterile by “doctors” …… and now have their own children ……. PLURAL ……..

          • MCrow

            Ok, let’s take this to an extreme: a man has no testes. It’s sad, but it happens, particularly with trauma. How about then?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            how about what …….. what about it …….. you want to take a few rare cases and then make rules based on something that rarely ever happens ….. but if and when it does …. then the whole world needs to stand on their head for an exception …….. really ……. what an asinine question ……… and has nothing to do with the discussion ……..

          • MCrow

            The lengths you go to to not answer a question. Shows me I’m on to something.

            These people exist. I am asking because there is a rather important distinction to be made: their affirmation includes a requirement that sex be for procreative purposes only. One author declares that if you disagree, you cannot really be Christian. These people, these exceptions? They exist. There are people who cannot have children for one reason or another. Are they expected to remain celibate?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and a man with no testes can have that as a goal …….. and as part of his marriage to a WOMAN ….. but a MAN homomarried to a MAN ….. or a WOMAN homomarried to a WOMAN …… CANT ……… because BIOLOGY 101 says it does not work like that …….. see what you are NOT on to … you know …. REALITY ……….

          • MCrow

            Straw Man: I never raised the idea of homosexuality in this discussion as it is not in any way related to my point.

            Reality and science dictate that there are conditions, genetic, environmental, and traumatic, which can result in a creature being unable to reproduce. Some of those are quite obvious, such as trauma to the reproductive organs.

            If a person cannot reproduce, are they to remain celibate?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            but that is your point ……. even though you deny it ….. but to suit you …. again …… does not alter Gods plan for us ….. nor are they excluded from Gods plan ….. nor does that alter our agreement with Him ………

          • MCrow

            It actually isn’t. My point is that this declaration isn’t well thought out. I’m not the only one who thinks so, and some people agreeing with me are Christians who don’t like homosexual marriage.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i think the word christian there … belongs in “scare quotes” …………. and their agreeing with you …. that is its own kettle of fish ……

          • MCrow

            You’re not God, Amos. You don’t get to declare who is and who isn’t Christian

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            yup …. surely do … as does every other christian ….. people not in agreement with God and His word are not christians ….. opposed to homomarriage or not ……….

          • MCrow

            I see. Your god’s judgments are your judgments. Your god’s laws are your beliefs.
            Your god stares you back in the mirror every day.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Gods judgments are His judgments …. Gods laws are His laws ……. i just agree with them ….. “Your god stares you back in the mirror every day.” … well that would probably be your god who does that …. i am just His creature, His creation …. so no ……….

          • MCrow

            I don’t have a god, so that’s wrong. Your god looks suspiciously like you, though. It’s just a convinient method for you to make your own judgments and prejudices unquestionable.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            so then why are you arguing about Him ….. if He truely does not exist then walk away …. it does not matter ………

          • MCrow

            You’d call it ‘evangelism,’ I think

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            whatever you want to call it … you do not believe it …. he does not exist …. according to you …… SO WHAT …..

          • MCrow

            Because your belief affects others, and having poor beliefs causes poor behavior which can damage others

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope ….. if there is no God then there is no right and wrong and good and bad ….. and your position is a lie ……… quit stealing from a christian worldview …………

          • MCrow

            It would be based on what we as a species decide. Kinda like we do now

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “It would be based on what we as a species decide. ”

            so “CONSENSUS based” ………. so just complete bull hockey …. if we “decide” it is okay to wipe out a certain group of people …. for whatever reason … then its cool ……… you have no basis for saying anything is right or wrong or good or bad BASED ON CONSENSUS ……….. and your system is BANKRUPT ……….. on that basis ……….

            quit stealing christian ideals and labeling them as your own ….. you have no basis of good or bad or right or wrong in such a system of “CONSENSUS” …………..

          • MCrow

            Why is it that stabbing someone over an argument is wrong and yet killing someone in war is right? Why is abortion wrong but letting a child die of a curable disease based on the religion of the parents right? Because society decides so. We have the capacity to decide what is right or wrong based on the harm it does to others, and we are intelligent enough to make those calls. And your god made several decisions to wipe out an entire people. Several times over. So if you are saying he’s better…

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            how is it you think atheism has any claim whatsoever on morality … there is no morality to atheism ……….. there is no morality to evolution …… you have no claim on it … so quit trying to appropriate a christian worldview ……….. “Because society decides so” …. RIGHT!!!!!!! ….. ummmmm ….. BALDERDASH …… a certain society DECIDED it was ok to KILL JEWS and put them in camps ….. your consensus argument is UTTER GARBAGE and you have no basis for ANY morality in an ATHEISTIC worldview …………

          • MCrow

            Consensus+avoidance of harm. I don’t know how I can phrase that any better. And again, your god is recorded as committing successful genocide down to women and children. The difference? According to the Bible, he succeeded. Let’s not forget killing someone for turning around or, in the case of Job, no reason at all other than ‘cuz I said so.’ If that is the morality one is to follow, your claim of attempted genocide is hypocritical.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            there is no “harm” or good or bad or evil or ANY THING that requires a moral judgement in an A-theist worldview ….. there is evolution and animal survival ….. there is no emotion to any of it ….. you are AGAIN STEALING from a christian worldview ….. you cannot make your assertions come true without theft or imaginary ideas of what happened ….. it is all made up garbage …………..

          • MCrow

            Are you arguing that one must have a Christian worldview to even conceive of such notions? If so, you are ignoring large swaths of the world and its history. Native Americans, East Asian cultures, African cultures, and pre-Christian European cultures all had notions of what was good for society and was not. Arguing otherwise is simply false. Non-Christians are perfectly capable of deducing what is and is not beneficial for themselves and their society.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i am arguing that if you are going to make up your own worldview ….. then you have no claim on those things that belong to a christian worldview ……… those things God created …….. and IF …. and it is a BIG IF …. YOU are going to be consistent …. then you have to remain within the parameters YOU have set …. and that is evolution and what goes along with it ………. but you are NOT being consistent ….. science cannot even account for human consciousness ……… FAIL ……

          • MCrow

            Did you know that all humans, regardless of culture, have the same facial expressions with regards to happiness, sadness, contempt, anger, and surprise? Humans are far more alike than we are different. Saying that there can be no overlap in morality is, again, absurd as numerous ideologies and philosophies across the world have similar ethics and morality. Saying that you cannot share any is like saying you’re not allowed to smile unless you’re Catholic. It’s absurd.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            sir ….. we are talking about the ORIGIN of that morality …. i am not denying we have a common morality ….. your comments are spurious at best ….. and you have NO WAY through science TO EXPLAIN it ……….. NOW …. you want to say that there is a “natural explanation” for it …… NOT that it is COMMON …… but WHERE IT CAME FROM …. and …. IF you are going to be CONSISTENT ….. and it a big IF as you do not seem to capable of staying within the parameter THAT YOU SET …. then you have to LEAVE the christian explanation OUT OF IT ….. but you want to claim God is not part of it and at the same time USE what He put in place as YOUR explanation ………..

            QUIT stealing from a christian worldview and stay within the parameters YOU SET ………

          • MCrow

            You can, quite literally, google ‘the evolution of morality’ and find numerous sources which explain that altruism is advantageous for the survival and promotion of the group. Morality, setting what is right and wrong, creates stability within a society. Wikipedia and numerous scholarly articles explain that morality can come from perfectly natural causes, i.e. what benefits the group over the individual. Animals such as primates demonstrate such behavior, and further have social memory, knowing who is altruistic toward them. Given time and recording technology, such behaviors become codified.

            Again, look it up. Such moral codes benefit society and the propagation of the species.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            yeah … you can google a lot of things ….. BUT YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE for that “evolution” …… you are dealing in fantasy now ….

          • MCrow

            The evidence is clear in that morality occurs naturally and without influence of specific religion, and these proto-moralities occur in non-human creatures. I can’t link things here, but the evidence is there. If you want to shove your head into the sand, that is your choice, but the nice thing is that the evidence remains there regardless.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “The evidence is clear in that morality occurs naturally and without influence of specific religion”

            okay …. WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE … not your assertion of evidence ………. SOLID TANGIBLE EVIDENCE ….. you HAVE NONE ……. there is no evidence from science of an EMOTION …. and CERTAINLY no evidence it “evolved” …………. thoughts DO NOT LEAVE EVIDENCE ….. all you are asserting is LIES ……………..

          • MCrow

            Morality occurs in every human society regardless of religion or philosophy. That is my evidence.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Morality occurs in every human society regardless of religion or philosophy. That is my evidence”

            that is not evidence of your assertion …… neighborhoods that have a lot of fire stations experience more fires …. so we need to get rid of fire stations …. that is FALSE EVIDENCE ….. and that is the line of “reasoning” you are using ……

          • Bob Johnson

            Hey Amos, You might try the UCSD Emotion Lab or Stanford’s Culture and Emotion Lab. Both schools are looking for grad students.

            And, of course, you might look into McGill College in Montreal – they have done years of groundbreaking research in emotion and the brain.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            there is no evidence of empathy as a path to morality by evolution …… empathy does not lead you to right or wrong or good or evil …….. and there is certainly no fossil evidence or really any evidence of such a theory … and this is precisely the reason i say there is a lot of false science out there trying to be passed off as science ….. it is not science …. it is fantasy ….

          • brucewang

            Why would you turn to FOSSILS for evidence of morality???

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            because that would BE EVIDENCE …. and other than a fantasy about “empathy” and morality …. there is no link ………

          • brucewang

            Morality has NOTHING to do with fossils!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            but it has EVERYTHING to do with EVIDENCE ………. of which you are SORELY lacking ……….

          • brucewang

            Excuse me, but why would you mention fossils at all? As though by studying a fossil you would discover a person’s morality in there? Do you know how off the rails that sounds?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and i answered this already … why are you asking again …….. the “off the rails” idea here is your assertion of emotions as a basis for morality …. when the plain fact is emotions HINDER morality ……….

          • brucewang

            You didn’t answer. How could you, when fossils and morality are as different as octopuses and nylon stockings?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and again …. fossils would be ACTUAL evidence …. not the pretend evidence you put forth …….. so what it amounts to is … you have nothing …..

          • brucewang

            Fossils would be actual evidence of things related to skeletal remains. They would not be evidence of things related to morality. You have less than nothing. You have nonsense.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “They would not be evidence of things related to morality. You have less than nothing. You have nonsense.”

            great … then we are in agreement …. you have no evidence of any value ….. just your vain imaginings ……..

          • brucewang

            Considering I don’t value anything that ISN’T evidence, I’d say you have a huge problem with logic and reasoning.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            another lie ……… you accept with blind faith …… and we have already covered this ……

          • brucewang

            Blind faith = religion.
            I follow no religion.
            Science is not blind faith, all the testing it undergoes removes the word “blind” and the fact that it’s facts removes the word “faith”.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            blind faith = science you do not understand but accept without any personal knowledge …….

          • brucewang

            So that brings us back to the brain surgery question…do you learn how to do brain surgery before having someone perform it on you to avoid it being what you think is “blind faith”? Get your pilot’s degree before flying in an airplane?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            more false equivalency ……….

          • brucewang

            No it’s not. If you’re going to call it “blind faith” when someone relies on the expertise of someone else even though you haven’t studied it yourself, as you are doing now by calling my trust in accepted, settled science “blind faith”, then you have to be willing to apply it to yourself, otherwise you are a major hypocrite. Maybe learn what “blind faith” really is.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignored ……

          • brucewang

            Whatever.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignoring again ………

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            is morality OBjective or SUBjective ………….

          • brucewang

            Both.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope …. if it is subjective ….. then there IS NO MORALITY …. and again you disprove your own point ………….

          • brucewang

            Well, you’re wrong, Amos. How about that? And not for the first time either. For the million and first time.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            please explain how consciousness “evolved” …… and then explain how emotions “evolved” ….. and then explain how right and wrong “evolved” …. and then explain how good and evil “evolved” …… and when you get to “empathy” …… explain how that “evolved” ………….. and then explain how lions and tigers and bears HAVE NOT “EVOLVED” these traits …….. and what their “consensus” is and how it was derived ………

          • MCrow

            The short answer is because we are a social species. The more social a creature, the more likely it is to have empathic traits. Wolves and dogs are an example. Still, this is a trait based on survival. Tigers, as solitary hunters, have little reason to evolve that trait outside of tending their young.

            Further, consensus is a human concept. We are the only creatures who are capable, so far as we know, of communicating abstract thought. Your arguments of evolving make no sense. People decided on those terms. Right and wrong are easy: what benefits the society and what harms the society. It’s the basis of laws and rules. Good and evil are expansions of this which add weight to those. Someone who kills others of the tribe, for example, is a danger to others, so he is wrong. We as a society add weight by making it a moral imperative and term killing evil. But that’s all it is. They expand to include things we find to be distasteful as a society. In modern society, with advancement in technology and a population that approaches sustainability issues, birth control being termed “wrong” is difficult to defend. We have holdovers from Catholicism of it being evil, though.

            Other animals have empathy to some degree, but lack abstract thinking and communication needed to form consensus. Wolves will exile other wolves that endanger the pack, hence “lone wolf.” Other packs will rarely adopt that wolf because they can’t take the chance. But they don’t have concepts of morality. That’s a human thing.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            more BULL ROAR ….. there are many “social species” and that EXPLAINS NOT ONE THING ……… WHERE DOES EMPATHY come from … how did it evovle ….. you have NO ANSWER ….. empathy is NOT an answer ……… because you cannot explain from where it came ….. dogs EAT dogs …… cats eat cats ….. now you are just spouting absolute rubbish ………….

          • MCrow

            Sure I can: social species develop empathy. Yes, dogs and cats kill each other. Pretty sure humans kill each other as well. Pretty sure your god has claims on quite a few lives. More than the devil, if the Bible is to be believed.

            I did explain, but I’ll do it again: empathy evolves as a mechanism which aids survival by banding together in groups. Primates and wolves all have it, hence dogs and apes demonstrating degrees of empathy. Empathy allows social creatures to survive as a group better as it ensures creatures place the well-being of society over the well-being of the individual.

            That’s a very simple explanation for how empathy arises in a species.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “social species develop empathy”

            PROOF ….. where is the evidence ….. show me the evidence of this assertion …. got a fossil ….. do you have ANY TANGIBLE evidence WHATSOEVER ….. no … you do not …. because it does not exist ……. empathy is an emotion ….. you have no evidence it “evolved” …….

          • MCrow

            There are numerous studies on the social behavior of creatures. A simple google of ‘social animal’ will point you to studies of how such creatures develop. A quick search of ‘non-human empathy’ has, at the top, numerous scholarly articles on the topic.

            I can’t link them here as the mods frown on such things, but the information is there, if you take a moment to seek it out.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            science cannot even account for human consciousness ……… FAIL ……

          • MCrow

            Several accounts, and numerous ideas, actually. The issue is less having one and figuring out which is the right one. Amusingly, the Bible does not account for consciousness either. It rather takes it for granted.

            Keep moving those goalposts. I provide explanations, you can’t dismiss them, so you demand some other topic be addressed. Someone is failing in this conversation. It isn’t me.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Several accounts, and numerous ideas, actually.”

            EVIDENCE …. you CLAIM SCIENCE and that requires EVIDENCE ….. WHERE is your EVIDENCE ……….. YOU SET the goal posts …. SCIENCE is the GOAL POST YOU SET …… so STAY WITHIN THEM …………

          • MCrow

            *sigh* Consciousness is demonstrated in animals other than humans, including primates, canines, felines, and aquatic mammals. It’s far from unique to humans. And, simply put, it allows for complex thought. This can prove a survival trait

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            no … human consciousness is UNIQUE to humans …….. FAIL ………..

          • MCrow

            Hey, look, moving those goalposts again. Human consciousness is in the same way that dolphin consciousness is unique. Consciousness as a property, however, is not.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … it is the mountain in your way that YOU set but CANNOT MOVE ….. as you are stuck in denial and want to use God to get you out of your jam ….. we have no discussion with cats or puppy dogs or ANY animal ….. it is UNIQUELY human ….. and you know it …….. but if you have any evidence that says Mr. Ed can talk to us ….. or Francis the mule ….. show it …..

          • MCrow

            Consciousness is simply defined as awareness of self. Numerous creatures demonstrate this awareness. If you have some other definition which makes it unique to humans, you’ll have to share it as I’m working off of the dictionary

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Consciousness is simply defined as awareness of self. ”

            it is WAY more than that … but again ….. it has NOT ONE THING to do with the assertion you made …. science has no ability to ACCOUNT for how human consciousness arose …. and then how empathy came about and how that was the path to morality …. it is all absolute garbage ……… sounds good in your head i guess as you continue to deny God in your creation ….. but you lack ANY EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER of a connection between EMPATHY and morality …………. and here is why …. empathy is an emotion ….. right and wrong and good and evil …… are all VALUE JUDGEMENT and have nothing to do with emotion ….. value judgments are a CRITICAL THOUGHT process ….. and emotion really plays no part in it …….. so your whole assertion is plain fantasy …….

          • MCrow

            If consciousness is more than that, then you need to tell me what it is. Again, I’m working off of the dictionary according to Webster. If you have a special definition, your responsibility is to explain it.

            And we can see consciousness as I define it in other species at different stages. We can see how it emerges. Science does have evidence, and you can easily find it through a search since links get deleted. But a google of “evolution of consciousness” would do you good

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you are working off a fantasy in your mind because you reject God ………. if there is no God then there is no objective morality …. if there is no objective morality ….. then it is ALL just your opinion …. no matter who or how many you may convince to agree with you …. if there is no God …..

            1. The Nazis were not wrong – its just your opinion

            2. Love is no better than rape – might be unfashionable but not wrong

            3. Blowing up innocent people watching a marathon is no morally
            different than feeding the poor – it just your opinion

            4. Religious crusades are not wrong – because there is no standard for
            righteousness

            5. Tolerance is no better than intolerance – why tolerate anything

            6. There are no human rights – it is just your opinion

            7. Atheist cannot justify morality

          • MCrow

            Morality is relative and based on what people at the time and place hold to be true. Some people still believe genocide is the right answer. The majority of people disagree. Love and rape might be no different to a sociopath, but the rest of us disagree. Human rights exist because we, humans, say they should.

            These morals have changed, even among Christians. God ordered genocide and committed it on more than one occasion. The Bible accepted slavery as slavery was part of society at the time, but now views it as immoral. So yes, morality is subjective.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Morality is relative and based on what people at the time and place hold to be true. ”

            then THERE IS NONE …………. and you are a liar and have disproven your own argument ……..

          • MCrow

            No, I just don’t need a sky god threatening me with eternal damnation in order to not be a murdering rapist. Also, address my points. You claim Christianity had exclusive rights on morality: prove it

          • MCrow

            Morality is something we choose. Whether it’s Christian, Buddhist, Islamic, Zoroastrian, agnostic, humanist, existentialist, whatever. We choose a morality to follow, so by definition, morality is subjective

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … all those religions, are man made religions …. except christianity ……… man chooses religion ….. God chooses whom He wants to follow Him ….. so fundamentally wrong …. man has never chosen morality ….. just as man has never chosen God ….. man has a conscience and knows when they have to hide what they have done …. that is a sense of morality ….. but it has nothing to do with empathy or any other emotion except fear of discovery and the consequences ……….. no one had to teach your child to steal or any other immoral thing …. they were born with that ability …. a selfish self interest …. we may choose morality, but morality is not subjective …. if it can change at all ….. then it is not morality, it is expedience ……..

          • MCrow

            “Except Christianity” prove it

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            all the others are man made ….. christianity is not ……… there is nothing in scripture that says man is the author of christianity ……….. that man is the author of anything ………

          • MCrow

            Islam also claims that the Quran was dictated by an angel and that Mohammad simply was the scribe. Hindu scriptures are recordings of what Krishna said. By your line of argument, they are both true

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            sure …. but we are not talking about islam …… and you are on a christian site ….. and the topic you have chosen is chrisitianity ……. and if it is man made or not … and the standard of a man made religion is not any claim of a book …. it is who is in charge of salvation ….. and the two you just mentioned … have that as man …. not God …….. WORLD of difference ……..

          • MCrow

            No, but we are talking about what differentiates Christianity from others. Judgment lies with God in both Islam and in Judaism.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope …….. that is not the difference …. they both say the same thing ….. islam, hinduism, catholicism, etc ……. they all say “DO” ….. they all say “we must do this and we must do that, or we will not be saved” …… God says …. “it is done” ………. there is nothing for us to do to be saved …….. there is nothing we can do to be saved …… there is nothing to believe that will save us ….. there is nothing we can believe that will save us ……

          • MCrow

            “Faith without works is dead.”

            Matthew 25 has a nice list of things you DO which will cause Christ to say “depart from me.”

            In short, your Bible says acts are required. Saying they do not matter is you imposing your belief on the Bible.

            Would you call Christ a liar?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … you read but you do not understand …. because you read without the Holy Spirit ….. that is AFTER salvation …. NOT before ….. and those acts are a RESULT of being saved ….. they do not gain us entrance to heaven ….. that is ALREADY accomplished ……. FAIL ….

          • MCrow

            I hear that same argument, and it’s sad because Charity and acts of aiding the unfortunate is one of the aspects of Christians I admire

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            it is sad that you do not have the Holy spirit … and that you think you can use scripture to beat christians over the head with things you do not understand ….. reading the words and knowing what each word means …… does not mean you understand scripture ……..

          • MCrow

            Well, I don’t have your super special decoder ring because, oh, right, your god damns people for no fault of their own as all is in his absolute control.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … it is your fault … we are all at fault ….. we are all sinners before a Holy God …. you have a limited free choice to choose him … you will not exercise it ….. no one will …. so you are in the exact same position as everyone else …. but God does pick and choose out of that same pool …

          • MCrow

            “No one will” and god knew that and created us to be slaves to our sin anyway, according to you. That’s sadistic and cruel. He knows everything. Also, talk about cheapening the sacrifice of Christ. If Christ truly sacrificed himself for all, then it’s very tragic that only those who god randomly selects get chosen

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            He did sacrifice Himself for all ….. of the Elect ………….

          • MCrow

            And there it is. It’s about being special

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and for you … it is about NOT being special ….. i guess if you look at it that way …. and you do ……..

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            not about being special …. i have no explanation of why …. only that it is ……….

          • MCrow

            Oh? And it doesn’t give you a power trip when you declare anyone who disagrees with you that they are not a Christian? It doesn’t make you feel righteous when you say that you are one of the elect and there’s nothing anyone can do about it? Because that’s all I see when I see people do that. They want power.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            James 2:1
            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism.

            “And it doesn’t give you a power trip when you declare anyone who disagrees with you that they are not a Christian? ”

            has nothing to do with their agreement with me ….. but their DISagreement with God ………..

          • MCrow

            I’ve stated my opinions of who your deity is, so I’ll leave it there. I also notice no denial

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            in order to have EMPATHY ….. that REQUIRES a human consciousness ….. so you have to ESTABLISH that primarily ….. and you CANNOT ………….. YOUR CLAIM ….. YOUR GOAL POSTS ….. YOUR PARAMETERS …………

          • MCrow

            Religion offers no explanation of consciousness either. In fact, it takes it for granted. Science has difficulty because consciousness is a subjective concept which no one else is capable of experiencing. This is moving from science to philosophy, but there are scientific explanations of how consciousness arises, and again, google is your friend. Wikipedia has some information on it as well

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            yeah … it surely does ……. “consciousness is a subjective concept which no one else is capable of experiencing” … and yet we all do …. and it is not subjective …. if it is then all your observations are subjective ……. INCLUDING any science …….. so that is obviously wrong ………… nope …. not moving anywhere except you are running from what you clearly know but cannot accept ……. science has no explanation for human consciousness and you cant even begin to get to empathy and the rest of your worldview as you would like it to be …….. AND YOU KNOW IT ……….

          • MCrow

            Consciousness is something we cannot share as an experience. I cannot know the way you interpret data. This is true, and if you claim otherwise, you are lying. That said, reality is objective, and consciousness can evolve as a reaction to pressure. For example, the ability to predict and anticipate. These things allow creatures with consciousness to have advantage over those that do not

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            then YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE of empathy as a path to morality and your position is a LIE …………

          • MCrow

            Consciousness exists, but each consciousness is different and we are incapable of experiencing other consciousness. We can express it through communication.

            Seriously, why is this so difficult to understand

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you are trying to make a connection between EMPATHY and morality …. and you cannot …. and while your last statement is correct …….. it has NOT ONE THING to do with the assertion you made …. science has no ability to ACCOUNT for how human consciousness arose …. and then how empathy came about and how that was the path to morality …. it is all absolute garbage ……… sounds good in your head i guess as you continue to deny God in your creation ….. but you lack ANY EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER ………..

          • brucewang

            Here is a paper you need to have a look at, called “The Complex Relation between Morality and Empathy”. Replace the semicolon with a period. Just one will do.

            spihub;org/site/resource_files/publications/spi_wp_135_decety.pdf

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you first have to account for human consciousness ….. science cannot explain that ….. this paper is making false assumptions about empathy and morality ….. morality is NOT AN EMOTION and it is not derived from emotion …….. now can you make up rules based on emotion…. sure … completely fallacious rules …. Germans were convinced that “empathy” was to take any person they considered “retarded” or having some other “malady” of the mind as having a terrible existence and the “moral” thing to do was destroy them …… do you REALLY want that “standard” applied to homosexuals ……… OR ANYBODY ….. that the “kind and right thing to do” is to kill them ….. REALLY …. we can just decide they are all mentally incompetent and therefore the “right” thing to do is destroy them …. because THAT IS EXACTLY what you are going towards …………..

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and this is what i found …….

            “However, empathy is not always a direct avenue to moral behavior, and this may come as a surprise to the reader. Indeed, at times, empathy can interfere with morality by introducing partiality, for instance by favoring in group members.”

          • brucewang

            The point is there is a connection, and you insisted there was not.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope ….. i maintain it is a FALSE connection ….. morals have no internal locus ….. but that is all you have …………. morals are OBJECTIVE ….. emotions are SUBJECTIVE ….. and it is that SUBJECTIVE standard you want to rely on …. and so a person can then SUBJECTIVELY declare all homosexuals mentally ill and not worthy of life ….. and the study YOU SITED says that ………… or did you NOT READ YOUR OWN STUDY ……… that YOU SITED ……..

          • brucewang

            I’ll side with science on this matter, not strong emotional opinion.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you side with a lie of FALSE SCIENCE ……… so why should i care ……….

          • brucewang

            Nope. I reject all pseudoscience.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            except those that you agree with ……..

          • brucewang

            I only agree if there is scientific consensus. Pretty basic rule of thumb there.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            again …. CONSENSUS is not truth …….. majority does not make truth ……..

          • brucewang

            Consensus is truth if enough scientists are in agreement.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            then there is no truth … and all you have is lies … truth does not change dependent on how many believe it ………. fail ……. gravity is truth if nobody believes it ………. fail ……..

          • brucewang

            No Amos, the entire field of science is not lies. It’s facts and findings based on a rigorous set of test and rules.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ” the entire field of science is not lies.”

            and not what i said or ever said and now YOU ARE LYING ……….

          • brucewang

            Is is what you said. It’s EXACTLY what you said.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            then show it ………

          • brucewang

            Easy. “All you have is lies”. That’s wrong. What I have is not lies but science. I haven’t put forth anything I believe in that isn’t 100% supported by scientific principles.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignored …. and that is not a saying i said all science is wrong ………..

          • brucewang

            If all I’m standing by is scientific quotes and you say “all I have is lies”, you’re telling me that science is lies. A kindergartener could figure that out. Why can’t you?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you have nothing to stand on … the rest is ignored ……

          • brucewang

            Science is EVERYTHING to stand on. I hope you learn that some day.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you have nothing to stand on as what you claim to stand on belongs to God …. and you reject Him …………..

          • brucewang

            You’ve been exposed, Amos, and everyone can see it.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignored ……..

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you are an Antinomian …. and you are exposed ……… FYI …. the presupposition of
            Anti-Theism ….. is THEISM ……….

          • brucewang

            Just keep telling people what they believe rather than asking them, Amos. Getting the truth isn’t nearly as important to you as painting people as things they are not.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you deny God and His place in creation …. you think His law does not apply to you …….. that is antinomian …….. and you have said you deny Gods existence because “there is no proof” …….. anti-theist ….. your words convict you ………. and YOU TOLD US what you believe ………….. no need for me to use any paint ….. you have covered yourself …………

          • brucewang

            I deny the God you believe in. It doesn’t mean I deny God. I would deny anyone AND the God they believe in that believes God to be such a tyrannical being. If there is a God and God has a plan for us, I think you’re utterly barking up the wrong tree…no creator could be as hateful as the one you imagine.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignored ……………

          • brucewang

            “Ignored,” he said, as he took the time to click the REPLY button and type in a response.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignored … and the cool thing is i do not need to block you to ignore you … i can still read … and then annoy you by saying “ignored” …. (reply)

          • brucewang

            You’re not annoying me, I don’t care how many times you think by typing a single word that shows you’ve lost the verbal battle you were engaged in that you’re making a difference to anything. In all likelihood you are annoying other people though. I’m sure you don’t care.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignored ………….

          • brucewang

            Having fun?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignored ……………..

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Proverbs
            Prv 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
            Prv 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

          • brucewang

            So you think someone wrote a proverb just for you, is that it?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            for everyone ……..

          • Amen.

            When I first read those scriptures, years ago, I had to reread them several times and then…thank God for Holy Spirit. I think I meditated on them for awhile and then just went into worship and there it was.

            P.S. I actually do ignore and block (that is those who aren’t already blocked, lol.)

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Humans ‘predisposed’ to believe in gods and the afterlife
            Date:
            July 14, 2011
            Source:
            University of Oxford
            Summary:
            New research finds that humans have natural tendencies to believe in gods and an afterlife. Research suggests that people across many different cultures instinctively believe that some part of their mind, soul or spirit lives on after-death. The studies demonstrate that people are natural ‘dualists’ finding it easy to conceive of the separation of the mind and the body.
            Share:
            FULL STORY
            A three-year international research project, directed by two academics at the University of Oxford, finds that humans have natural tendencies to believe in gods and an afterlife.

            sciencedaily;com/releases/2011/07/110714103828.htm

            change the ; to a .

          • Bob Johnson

            The fact that humans are predisposed to find agency does not mean that the agent exists. It is always safer to believe there is a tiger in the grass and not just the wind. So to explain thunder and lightning Thor.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            right …. because “evolution” …. IF you believe that nonsense ….. put it there because ….. sorry … drawing a blank on that one ……..

          • Bob Johnson

            Agency is not related to “evolution.” In fact, some Christians attribute all physical ailments and mental diseases to demons.

            Maybe that is why you are drawing a blank. Maybe you need an exorcism.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            then how … in your estimation … did it occur ……… this is science ….. so how did it get there ………

          • Bob Johnson

            It is just math. Do you want to make more Type One or Type Two errors? Luck favors the cautious. So it is always safer to assume malevolence.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            yeah … so you do not know … i thought so ……..

          • Bob Johnson

            Would you be happier with emergent property of intelligence?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you have no basis for that ………. you cannot explain how intelligence came to be ….. much less how it “emerged” from anything …………

          • Bob Johnson

            True, I made no mention of how intelligence began. Let us assume that it was bestowed on Adam or possible is an outcome of eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

            The emergent properties, that I spoke of, are those things that arise due to this intelligence. Namely mathematics. And from mathematics, an understanding of statistics. Any being intelligent or otherwise needs to make choices. The classic in biology being, “Fight, Flight, or Die.” Historically, looking at these choices, survival is most likely if you overestimate the strength of your foe.

            Hence agency, your enemy is big, strong, fast, and hungry. Not the wind, but a lion. Not electricity in a cloud, but a god.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “The emergent properties, that I spoke of, are those things that arise due to this intelligence. Namely mathematics. ”

            then you will have to prove that ….. i know many “intelligent” people ….. cant do math to save their lives …………..

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope …….error …………

          • brucewang

            The ERROR is all yours, my friend.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            excuse me … you are an enemy of the truth and scripture … we are not friends …. and you are still in error ……..

          • brucewang

            More of that loving Christian attitude I’ve heard so much about (but so rarely get to witness).

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignored ………..

          • MCrow

            When you raise different points, I address different points. Don’t get angry just because I address them in addition to your main points

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            not angry …. the caps are for emphasis …. you have no evidence …. WHATSOEVER ….. for your assertions ……….

          • MCrow

            Tell you what: provide evidence that Christianity is distinct and superior to Zoroastrianism in terms of moral teachings.

            I’ve provided numerous avenues for evidence and could link them to have a post removed, if that is your preference

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            someone has already proved a link to a study and it was disproven in less than 5 minutes of reading it ……………

            is morality OBjective or SUBjective ………….

          • MCrow

            Subjective, based on objective benefits

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            no subjective morality ………. that is no morality ……….

          • MCrow

            Well, murder is literally an unlawful killing. And there is debate over what constitutes a murder all the time. Self defense? Accidental manslaughter? Execution is just killing by the state. So yes, it is subjective.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            murder is murder …… there maybe extenuating circumstances ….. but that does not make it not murder ……. justice is not murder …….. false equivalency …………

          • MCrow

            Do you know what false equivalence is? Because you’re the one who brought up murder. And again, I’m working off of the literal definition: murder is an unlawful killing. If one is sanctioned, as in execution or war, it’s not strictly a murder. If you say “killing is wrong,” that’s different.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and the state putting a person to death is a LAWFUL killing …. not a murder …………. and BTW …… from an A-theist worldview ….. SO WHAT ……………… you have no intrinsic value …. you are just particles of star dust coalesced into a bipedal protoplasm …. SO WHAT …..

          • MCrow

            Man, you just can’t stop telling me what I believe, you mind reader you. FYI, this is that empathy thing: I don’t want to be killed, so I assume others don’t either. Simple.

            And I think being made of the same matter as stars is actually pretty cool.

            So when Jesus was put to death, that wasn’t a murder, so a-ok in your book?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            so if you do not have God ….. then what is it ……… what do you believe ….. because without God the choices are limited ….. so spill it ……………

          • MCrow

            im an existentialist. So no god, the world is harsh, and there isn’t really any meaning. That said, there’s no reason to be a jerk about it. Do good and make the world better in small actions that are in your capacity.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            so you argue from ignorance …………. okay ………. be ignorant then ………

          • MCrow

            You reaaaaaaally need to look up the definitions of these accusations. I’m not arguing from ignorance. That would be me saying, oh “you don’t know what truth is, therefore I do” or “God is real because you can’t prove he’s false.”

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you have no basis for any knowledge ….. that is argument from ignorance ……. you do not know truth as you reject truth ……. ignorance …..

          • MCrow

            My basis for knowledge is my experience of the world through my interactions with it. No, I don’t believe in your untestable, unobservable, unfalsifiable, unknowable deity because I have no evidence of it.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            experience based on what ……….. how is it that JUSTIFIES your world view …. you have no basis to even come to that conclusion …. argument from IGNORANCE ………..you do not believe in Him … but …. you KNOW He exists ……….

          • MCrow

            Experience based upon my life, Amos, and the lives of others as they have explained it to me. Really, what else is there. I have no belief that any deity exists, and no, I don’t just magically “know” one exists. That’s outside my experience

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and on what basis do you know the last two days of your life has any bearing on the next five minutes …………… you have no basis for that judgement ……… you cannot justify your belief that it will ………. in fact you cannot justify ANYTHING …………

          • MCrow

            The fact that past experience tells me so. If it is different, experience has prepared me for that as well. I absolutely can base my judgment on that as it is what all living creatures do

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            see …. circular reasoning ….

          • MCrow

            No, just restating what should be obvious. Circular arguments would be saying God created everything, and saying proof of that is that everything is created ergo god. Sound familiar?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Bertrand Russell …. famous anti-theist … says it is circular reasoning ………..

          • MCrow

            I use my senses and experience to decide how I go about life. I also use the research done in science to make decisions. Guess that offends you

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.”― Richard Dawkins

            “Do good and make the world better in small actions that are in your capacity.”

            there is no good or evil in your worldview and you have to STEAL to get there ….. you are making appeals to absolutes, when you have no basis to do so ….. and to make yourself feel better about yourself ….. you steal from others worldviews ………..

          • MCrow

            Prove to me I’m stealing, Amos, and not simply doing what humans have done since before Christianity existed

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “not simply doing what humans have done since before Christianity existed”

            you are doing that … and they are all stealing from God …. and you have no basis for which to justify your beliefs ………. to say it has always been so it will always be ….. CIRCULAR REASONING …..

          • MCrow

            “They are all stealing from God” Proof please.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you cannot come up with any justification for what you believe ….. and since you have no answer for that justification … you steal from God ……..

          • MCrow

            My justification remains human social behavior and rationality. I steal nothing from God

          • MCrow

            Proof please

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “There are no gods, no purposes, and no goal-directed forces of any kind. There is no life after death. When I die, I am absolutely certain that I am going to be dead. That’s the end of me. There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning in life, and no free will for humans, either.” – Cornell University biologist William Provine

            “Do good and make the world better”

            there is no good or evil in your A-theistic worldview ……….. so how can you “do good” …. how can you make it better … that would require you to know good from evil ….. and again …. there is no good or evil in your A-theistic worldview ………..

          • MCrow

            There is, you just stubbornly refuse to accept it. Christians don’t have the corner market on morality, and the more you insist on telling me what I believe, the less I think that you’re giving me your God’s opinion rather than your own as divine decree. Human beings have believed in good and evil outside of any religion. Your insistence otherwise is deliberate blindness, nothing more

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you have NO BASIS to claim reality … morality is an ABSOLUTE STANDARD ….. but you claim it can change from day to day and person to person …… you have no basis to claim that absolute ……. in fact you REJECT that ……….. but then you turn around and DEMAND it be adhered to and appeal to an absolute standard …. you STEAL from the christian worldview …….

          • MCrow

            I can’t use reality…the real world…as evidence…wow…you just ran out of arguments, didn’t you? That’s actually impressive.

            I reject morality as absolute, yes. Christian morality has changed. Slavery used to be ok, now it’s not. And I follow a morality which differs from Christianity, so your claims of theft are bunk

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you deny the God that created reality ….. but then you turn around and think you can lay claim to it …. nope …. sorry ….. thing is …. you are enslaved ….. and nothing has changed …. you are enslaved to your own desires and your own will and your selfish self interest ….. and you do not even recognize your own slavery ………

          • MCrow

            Yes, I deny god created reality, and thus it does not belong to a fiction. And I deny being a slave to my desires and self-interest. You label anyone who does not agree with you (or your god: same person as far as I can tell) as a selfish sinner because we won’t enslave ourselves to your will. Well, I will not submit to a tyrant who damns people he could save for the sake of his own fame. That is not a god or man worthy of respect. I treat animals better than he treats sapient beings

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Yes, I deny god created reality, and thus it does not belong to a fiction.”

            so anti-theist …. thnx ……….. and you lied that i made an assumption about you ……. again … thnx for clearing up your lie ……….

          • MCrow

            No, anti-theist would require me to think god is real. I don’t. And you assume you know what I believe. Like calling me an anti-theist. I can make assumptions about your beliefs as well if you’d like

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            your DENIAL of Him is a RECOGNITION of Him ….. so fail on that ….. the presupposition to anti-theism …. is THEISM ….. you would not waste time saying things that are not real do not exist …….. and you KNOW He exists ………..

          • MCrow

            I deny the existence of any deity. I’ve said so repeatedly, so yes, I deny any deity created anything. That’s not splitting hairs, it’s just that I deny all deities. Even if I did think one created the world, why would I believe yours did? You’ve yet to prove to me Christianity is different from the hundreds of other religions in existence.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “I deny the existence of any deity. I’ve said so repeatedly, so yes, I deny any deity created anything.”

            so anti-theist ….. again …. thank you ………. and you have no alternative credible explanation of how everything came to be without stealing from a christian worldview ……….

          • MCrow

            I don’t know why I’m surprised, given your loose relationship with definitions, but that’s not what and anti-theist is. If I were a satanist, that would be an anti-theist, or if I hated a god. I don’t hate what doesn’t exist. I hate the way belief is used as a cudgel to force compliance.

            I can think of two off hand: the lambda CDM model and the MOND models. They have the benefit of study and observation to support them. You have a collection of stories by farmers who thought the world was flat.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “I can think of two off hand: the lambda CDM model and the MOND models.”

            but no truth to either of them …… smoke and mirrors are not facts ….. when you can explain the motor proteins (KINESINS) and how they know how, when, and where they move proteins 5-6 times their size, that move along the micro-tubules and the SPEED at which they move through the liquid of the cell …… if they were our size, in the air they would be traveling at roughly 2000 miles per hour …… AGAIN, THROUGH A LIQUID ………. AND THEN explain how “evolution” brought that about ….. then we might be able to have an intelligent conversation about it ….. truth is you cannot even account for the micro-tubules they use as pathways …… and “EVOLUTION” and TIME is TOTALLY inadequate as an answer ……….. and so is “we dont know and that is “okay”” ……

            youtu;be/9RUHJhskW00?t=419
            youtube;com/watch?v=WFCvkkDSfIU

            replace the ; with a .

          • MCrow

            It is OK. Not knowing is ok, because we can add “yet” to the end of “we don’t know.” Discovery is important. And yes, it might prove wrong, but it will be proven wrong based on evidence and peer review.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “You have a collection of stories by farmers who thought the world was flat.”

            The statement, “Scientific knowledge is the only legitimate form of knowledge,” is not scientific knowledge—that’s to say, we cannot determine the truth-value of this statement using the scientific method. With what sense can we observe the truth of this statement? Or what scientific tests can we perform to prove this statement? The truth-value of scientism is not empirically verifiable nor quantifiably measurable, and consequently is not subject to scientific inquiry—it’s an assumption.

            But this is a fatal problem for the believer in scientism—namely, scientism is not real knowledge. If science can’t verify the truth of scientism, then how can scientism itself be a legitimate form of knowledge?

            The answer is, It can’t.

            Why should anyone believe scientism is true if it’s not real knowledge? If scientism is not real knowledge, as implied in scientism itself, then it’s self-refuting, and thus should not be accepted as a reasonable worldview.

            ~ Karlo Broussard

          • MCrow

            Here’s a simple answer: science is what we can observe. It is testable, repeatable, and a shareable experience. If it is wrong, then it corrects. If the method is wrong, then the world we live in is an illusion. If that is true, then, to paraphrase Conan the Barbarian, so are we, and we live, love and die in it. So until science is shown categorically to be false, I will rely on it for my information about the universe

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            KIM LAUNCHES ANOTHER OVER JAPAN

            so how are things there today ……..

          • MCrow

            Initial panic, had classes to explain what was going on to students. Could be worse, but tensions are a bit high

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            sorry for that ….

          • MCrow

            Also, thanks for asking

          • MCrow

            Oh? Disproven how?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            the “study” … if you can call it that …. says this ….. “However, empathy is not always a direct avenue to moral behavior, and this may come as a surprise to the reader. Indeed, at times, empathy can interfere with morality by introducing partiality, for instance by favoring ingroup members” … and that is just what i said it was ….. emotion is not a path, it is a deterrent …… and if it changes according to a person or a societies “mood” at the moment ….. then it is not morality ……. it is justifying wrong doing …….. exactly what happened in Germany ……….

          • Beamer

            Yes the Lord did create the ability to know right from wrong IN our bodies. He did not give it to Christians only, but to all his human creations.
            Every single person has the ability to know right from wrong. It’s in our make up.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “I don’t have a god, so that’s wrong.”

            you are your own god ………

          • MCrow

            Nah. I’m not important enough to be any sort of god. I’m just a schoolteacher who dislikes when people disparage others

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you are the most important thing in your entire existence …. and you always act in your own self self interest … you are the god of your life ….. and you have no basis for making any judgement about “disparaging others” ….. that would require you to know right from wrong …. and that comes from God which you say does not exist …. it does not come from evolution or the Big Bang Theory or any other such nonsense … so stop stealing from a christian worldview that you do not accept and cannot comprehend ………

          • MCrow

            I’m one of 7 billion people. Objectively, my life doesn’t matter outside of my very small sphere of influence. And Amos, you may be forgetting, are not the Laws written in the hearts of the Gentiles? In short, yes, I know right from wrong based on the harm it does to others as it would be done to me. This is the basis of all morality and is far, far from exclusive to Christianity or any religion or philosophy. I would not want to be disparaged, and so I do not do it to others and prevent it from happening to others if I can.

            Also, for someone who takes great offense when misrepresented, you have little trouble doing it yourself. Up to now, it’s been merely an annoyance, but you do not know my mind, unless being part of your super special club gives you mind reading powers, so I will thank you to stop telling me what I believe.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and yet you are the most important person … to you … and you are the god of your life ……. and you have no basis based on harm as you cannot quantify harm based on your worldview of evolution and TBBT … is does not exist …. and your position is a lie ……… you steal from a christian worldview ………

          • MCrow

            And you are still telling me how I think. Man, I need to get me some Christianity. Apparently it gives the ability to tell exactly how other people think!

            And your harm postulation would be true…were humans not capable of basic communication. Even non-sapient species can communicate when something harms them. Dogs, cats, and various primates are capable of expressing distress when something harms them and even pointing to where it is. Humans are capable of communicating that harm. So your point is invalid by the fact that humans can state when something is harmful to them, and so we are able to draw conclusions based upon that.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … you have already told all of us what you think and how ….. i am just showing you the outcome ………

          • brucewang

            He tried that “you steal from a Christian worldview” thing on me, too. Just amazing.

          • Beamer

            The majority of people have Christians in their ancestors, and they taught their children with the bible morals. Those kids grew up and taught their kids the same morals, but did not go to church, so yeah right and wrong of course began with God, but it is not restricted to God’s people anymore than our free will is restricted to only Christians. Teaching children our morals is part of being a mother. They need to learn them before the kids start school, so everyone does have a moral code that did not necessarily come from their own knowledge of the bible.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “growing up” christian and being “taught” christianity …. and having a whole family of christians …… does not make anyone a christian …….. and the only one with autonomous free will is God …. we have a creaturely “free will” …. and it is limited …. God gave men and women a conscience …. men know when they do right and wrong without any instruction from anyone ……… they were given this basic knowledge by God ……..

          • Beamer

            Well, I guess you have the right to your own opinion, certainly.
            My Jesus told us to behave in a way that shows HIS people ……Christians…… as something that others want to be like, and then we can tell them about Salvation and repentance.
            I’m not interested in fighting with you. You are obviously not a Christian who follows Jesus and the Gospel. I don’t know what your religion or your background is, but it seems to be of a faith that is not anything like my own. I follow Jesus Christ, not the world. Thanks I’ll stay out of your rude tirades thanks.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … i do not have the right to my opinion …. if i am a christian …. my opinion is to conform to CHRISTS …………… and if you conform to Christ ….. then Christ has already told us what to expect ….. PERSECUTION ….. so not sure what christ you are listening to but it is becoming apparent you are a little tone deaf ………..

          • brucewang

            Ah, an actual Christian. Welcome, nice to see you.

          • Beamer

            Oh My, Thank you, that’s a very nice thing to say. God bless!

          • brucewang

            It’s a nice change from a lot of the hate and anger I see here so often.

          • Beamer

            But it’s a Christian site! Shouldn’t everyone be polite and treat people well if they are a Christian that believes and follows Jesus. Jesus would not agree with rudeness, I’m sure.
            I hope I can make a difference here if there is hate and anger. I prefer love and happiness, personally, and I receive it every day from Jesus. I can’t imagine being hateful or angry. I believe Jesus told us to behave properly towards everyone.
            I wonder why the Christians are angry and hateful. I guess I’ll find out when I read more comments.
            I hope I give you a break from those things often, brucewang, I will be checking back now as I got signed up so I could comment.
            Thanks again, and God bless!

          • brucewang

            You’re welcome. I am agnostic personally but get along with anyone who is kind and has an open mind.

          • Beamer

            My older brother was agnostic. I am fine with the same people you get along with. So I guess that means we’ll get along! A find blessing for my first day of posting.
            Thank you again. I am sure we will cross poster paths again. Blessings!

          • Beamer

            Excuse me, but I learned right from wrong from my dear Mama.
            How on earth did you come to the conclusion that God gave us right and wrong? that’s not in my bible.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            really …. the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and the fall of man is not in your bible ….. hmmmmmm …. maybe you need a new bible …. or maybe you need to actually read it …………

          • Beamer

            Oh my! why would you speak to me like that?
            I just joined maybe half an hour ago, and you decide who and what I am and attack me like you KNOW me? Who do you think you are?
            Personally I am a Christian. I guess you are one of the atheists or trolls I’ve heard about. I know you can’t be a Christians because Christians do not speak to others, especially someone you have never spoken to before, in attack mode. They are supposed to be well behaved people according to Jess.
            I’d like you to keep the rude out of the conversation please. If you can’t follow God the way you are supposed to then don’t argue with the people who do follow Jesus in the way HE commanded.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            so IF you are a christian …. how do you not know this ……… it is in Genesis 3 …. i mean ….. its like the third chapter …. but YOU just got here and i have been here for months ….. but i am the troll ….. really ……… you asked a question about how i got that ….. i answered ….. and it is a BASIC question that any christian should know ….. shoot …. any A-theist knows it in all likelihood ….

            but yeah …. i am the troll ………. /SMH …. eyeroll ….. face palm ….. double face palm ………

          • Beamer

            I’ve never heard of it described like that. The story of Adam and Eve is about OBEYING as well as LOVE. God felt that they would love him and choose to obey him because of that love. He showed that a lot in the Old Testament.
            As far as YOU, how would I know if you’d been here for months? I told you I just got here.
            I was not taught there was a lesson in ‘right and wrong’ because it wasn’t about right and wrong.
            I am sorry, I expected you to read what I wrote. I told you I had heard of trolls, and what I have heard is that they come onto comment boards to start fights with other people. You are fighting with every post you show and you are talking without showing Christian behaviour that Jesus told us to use. How am I supposed to know when you ACT like what a troll is supposed to act?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “God felt that they would love him and choose to obey him because of that love.”

            nope …. god knew they would disobey and made provision for that …. Gad has nothing to learn from us …. He is omniscient …. or He is not God ………..

            “As far as YOU, how would I know if you’d been here for months?”

            and yet you are ready to label “troll” with no knowledge …….. ¯_(ツ)_/¯ ……..

          • Bob Johnson

            Gad, that would be the son of Jacob and Zilpah – not your traditional husband and wife.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and there is nothing in scripture that says it is …. and just because it was does not mean God endorsed it ….. scripture makes no attempt to hide the SINS of those it discusses …… in fact it goes out of its way to NAME NAMES of those IN SIN ….

          • Bob Johnson

            Well, two wives and both of their handmaidens, not exactly in keeping with the Nashville Statement. Of course there was also that problem of identity theft. Yet Jacob is still a Patriarch and God did make a convent with Jacob, changed his name to Israel, and provided him with twelve sons to become the tribes of Israel.

            But I guess many would say he is burning in Hell now. I mean, Israel never repented lying or all those extramarital relations.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            agreed … and it is not the biblical model and it says nothing about it being the biblical model ……. SO WHAT …………… again …. Scripture makes no attempt to hide the sins of the people it talks about and it NAMES NAMES ……….

          • This style 10/6

            Sterilifty is not just a few rare cases. Many of these folk desperately want kids.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            sure … good thing … so what …. does not alter Gods plan for us ….. nor are they excluded from Gods plan ….. nor does that alter our agreement with Him ………

          • This style 10/6

            Plan, my Aunt Fanny!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            see …. He even knew your desire to say that and it is part of His plan ……..

          • This style 10/6

            Pull the other leg, it’s got bells on!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and He knew you would say that …. and your next little quip ……..

          • MCrow

            Then your God is a psychopath. He is responsible for the holocaust, genocide, and for all of us going to Hell.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “the holocaust, genocide, and for all of us going to Hell.”

            nope … you bear all responsibility for your acts as does the perpetrators of those acts ….. God refused to intervene and gave those people enough “free will” rope to hang themselves ….. and they did ………

          • MCrow

            That is your argument? God could stop these things but chose not to? That’s like saying “look, I could have taken that baby out of that burning car, but I’m just reinforcing the parent’s choices to get in that car and get hit by a truck. Not my fault.”

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            God CHOSE not to stop it ……….. God ALLOWED men to FULLY EXPRESS THIER “free will” …. a “free will” that you value ….. and again … i do not know what you are belly aching about ………

          • MCrow

            The paradox is strong with this one. The fact that you put free will in quotes shows what you think. Again, your god is evil by your beliefs as he is the only one, according to you, can prevent it from happening.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “free will” is what you desire … it is in quotes as it is your term for it ….. “your god is evil by your beliefs as he is the only one” … but you say He does not exist …. so what do you care …..

          • MCrow

            Because your beliefs are used to condemn others, which has real world effects

          • brucewang

            In all fairness, I didn’t notice the quotes because his use of punctuation seems to be to overdo everything as much as possible.

  • Robinske2

    It’s a great step, but also shows the decrepit state of “The Church” when only 150 ministers are willing to sign it. It would appear the majority of ministers that claim to be disciples of Christ do not believe in this statement.

    • Amos Moses – He>i

      well it is not limited to those … others can and have gone to the website and digitally signed and affirmed ……… but your observation of a decrepit church and ministers is valid …….. the statement does draw a line and that numerous supposed pastors are really just hirelings ………

  • Tonya Elise

    Amazing, so-called Christians Acting so Anti-Christian and full of hate. The word “Christian” translates to “Christ-Like” . You are more like HATE mongers. This Hate is a Blessing of Satan but of God. Shall we talk about all your Sins Against God ! But, low Judge not less ye be Judged. But You “so-chirstians” are not even following God’s word. I am Gender non-conforming but, i am a Christian. My sins are between me and my God.

    • Tonya Elise

      NOT A MENTAL PROBLEM OR ISSUE its more of a BIO / Genetic one.
      The Unintelligent Society is clueless and HATE filled to something
      they have no knowledge and lack the education to what the real
      issue is. I know if i am a man i have Higher the normal Estrogen
      lvls. Both men and women have estrogen and testosterone. DNA Lies
      and you can not base Gender on DNA. ________________________________
      The Transgender Brain development
      How does the M to F Transgender?
      Like the normal male embryo, the Male to female Transgender brain it starts out
      female Then between the 8th and the 24th weeks, the “XY” chromosomes introduce
      testosterone hormonal changes, BUT hormonal washes as faulty. They are either
      insufficient or ill timed. When this happens, the fetus develops a male body.
      However, some of the default (original) female brain processes to remain intact.
      Thus, the brain’s gender Identity remain intact. Thus,the brain gender Identity
      remains Female. This means that Transgender males whose process of a
      masculinization was incomplete, their default female brains still function.
      The degree of arrested development can very. The original brain circuitry that
      was missed in the Masculinizing process provides a continuing Feminine influence.
      this explains why many transgender, biological males know. from as early as the
      age of 3 years old that they are actually members of the opposite gender.
      You are born with this unlike Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual). Though they too have some of the same traits.
      Gender is not sexuality but, it may effect it.*This may help F to M trans people too.

      • That physical gender and genetic can certainly differ, DNA cannot lie. It can, and does, vary from person to person. This includes sexuality. A person may be physically male, but genetically is predispositioned more as female. A person, as well, can be physically both male and female (Intersexual). Their genes, however, may predetermine them to be one or the other, or both (bisexual).

        I wonder how these 150+ preachers would explain their god allowing such a birth (since they are attempting to judge their god’s sexual preferences in humans) and I’d love to know how they would judge such a person’s right to marry whomever he or she wants?

    • Amos Moses – He>i

      ” I am Gender non-conforming but, i am a Christian. ”

      contradiction in terms …….