Rick Warren Hopes His Partnership With Roman Catholic Leader Will Become ‘Model’ for World

Photo Credit: Diocese of Orange

LAKE FOREST, Calif. — Megachurch leader Rick Warren, known for his best-selling book “The Purpose-Driven Life,” said in a recent interview that he hopes his partnership with a local Roman Catholic leader to collaboratively combat social ills becomes a “model” for others around the world. His remarks have drawn disagreement from those who believe that ecumenism with those who preach another gospel is unbiblical.

The Roman Catholic site Crux published the interview, which featured both Warren and friend Kevin Vann of the Diocese of Orange, on Sept. 14. They were asked by interviewer and diocese Chancellor Pia de Solenni to share about how their friendship formed and developed.

Vann recalled that Warren attended his installation as the bishop of Orange and also called to congratulate him. The two continued to communicate and soon also began praying together.

“One way we stay in touch is by texting personal prayer requests to each other,” Warren explained. “When my youngest son died in April 2013, I knew Kevin was praying for me, and when his father died in November 2014, I was praying for him. Sharing pain and grief brought us closer.”

Not only did Warren and Vann pray together, but “brainstorming meetings between [their] two staffs” about the issue of mental illness—in light of Matthew Warren’s suicide—led to the formation of a joint conference and other efforts to address mental health.

“Out of these discussions about working together, the Diocese of Orange and Saddleback church decided to partner in sponsoring two gatherings, or symposia, on what should be the Church’s response to mental illness,” Vann explained.

“[O]ut of Matthew’s death came a partnership in creating a conference to help others, and also a number of other mental health initiatives,” Warren added. “It also brought Catholics and Evangelicals together as I, and our church, received many letters of comfort from Catholic priests and parishioners.”

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Vann noted that the two have worked together on other projects as well, including jointly expressing their opposition to physician-assisted suicide. Warren noted that he also organized a retreat in which priests and pastors cooperatively strategized how churches can be the face of love in the midst of the blot of racism.

“So really, our friendship began with heart-to-heart praying together, but then it grew into working hand-in-hand together on projects where Christians can offer a compassionate response to those in need, and also stand together with clear and united voice in opposing evil,” he further outlined.

Vann and Warren agreed that the world is a better place when Evangelicals and Catholics work together to address societal issues.

“We’ve seen first-hand that much good can be accomplished for the Kingdom of God by Catholics and Evangelicals being present to one another, praying for each other, and ministering to our communities together,” Vann said.

“If unbelievers like what they see, they will listen to what we say,” Warren also remarked. “Consider this: about 25 percent of Americans are Catholic Christians, and another 25 percent are Evangelical Christians. That’s about half of America! If just these two groups were committed to modeling the love of Christ together, imagine all the good that could happen!”

“Our prayer is that Orange County might be a model for others around the world,” he said.

Warren shared the article on Twitter, writing, “If you love Jesus, we may serve on different teams, but we’re in the same league of receiving His grace and forgiveness.”

His post generated mixed response, with some commenting in favor of the partnership and others expressing that ecumenism with those who do not adhere to biblical orthodoxy is verboten.

“Yes pastor! I am happy because Jesus is uniting us,” one commenter wrote.

“How do you explain the Counsel of Trent placing an anathema on those who believe that justification is by faith alone?” another asked.

John Fallahee of Proclaiming the Gospel Ministries and adjunct faculty at Knox Theological Seminary told Christian News Network that the gospel is the only means by which the evils of the world can be addressed, as it is the power of God to save and transform. However, since Catholics preach a different gospel/adhere to erring doctrines as to how men may be saved, how “[c]an two walk together except they be agreed?” (Amos 3:3)

“Jesus Christ’s perfect, once for all sacrifice for sin on the cross and resurrection from the dead three days later (John 19:16–20:29), proves there is no other message or means to address sin and evil in this world,” he explained. “This is why Paul proclaims, “For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek” (Romans 1:16).”

Fallahee

“[But] the false and fatal gospel of the Roman Catholic Church is a different gospel than Jesus Christ and the apostles,” Fallahee continued. “Furthermore, the Roman Catholic Church condemns anyone who believes you are saved by faith apart from works (Trent, Session 6, On Justification, Canon 9, 12, 14, 15). They condemn anyone who denies the necessity of the sacraments (Trent, Session 7, Concerning the Sacraments, Canon 4). And they condemn anyone who denies the eucharistic sacrifice remits sins (Trent, Session 13, Concerning the Eucharist, Canon 5).”

He noted that Jude, in observing false teachings creeping into the Church, instructed the Christians of his day to “contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints” (Jude 1:3-4). Likewise, Fallahee explained, those in our day who mistakenly think that Christianity can be compromised for the sake of unity do not truly understand the necessity of the purity of the gospel that saves souls.

“If anyone puts forward a lesser ‘light,’ like the ‘picture of unity,’ they prove they do not understand the primacy and power of the gospel of Christ to change a sinner, like Saul into the Apostle Paul, and the ‘such were some of you’ mentioned in 1 Corinthians 6:9–11,” he outlined.

“Since there is only one authorized gospel from Jesus Christ (Matthew 28:16–20) and all other gospels preached are forbidden and cursed (Galatians 1:6-9), there can be no genuine unity when individuals do not believe in the same gospel and the same Christ,” Fallahee stated.


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  • BuckeyePhysicist

    I’m not familiar with Rick Warren but I know lots about Bishop Kevin Vann! He’s a solid successor of the apostles and a tireless worker in the vineyard of the Lord. He was one of the main authors of the lawsuit against the Obama Administration’s HHS Mandate. He’s the bishop in Orange, California, and his cathedral was the former Crystal Cathedral which is now consecrated and known as Christ Cathedral.

    • mr goody two shoes

      Rick Waren has or use to have one of the largest so bap church in the USA. He famous for purpose driven life book and materials that baptist buy. Tragedy struck him and his family through the loss of his son. Along with other pastors southern baptist familys Which effected changes on southern baptist views on homosexuality when it came to talking about them in convention or their (Calvininistic) Albert Mohler run seminary. It may also effected some of their others more BGraham type free will inclined more liberal Sems also.

      • wandakate

        OK, so what does that have to do with anything?????

    • Mike Feehan

      A true successor to the apostles can heal the sick, raise people from the dead, get bit by a snake and not be poisoned, and walked with Jesus. Sorry, he may be a great man of God, but they cannot do any of the things the true apostles did so he is not a successor to the apostles…No real evidence to support that claim other than someone claiming it to be true…The true apostles confronted SIN, they didn’t just sit back as so many leaders in this church do and turn a blind eye…Sorry, they are not even close to being the true apostles….

      • wandakate

        They got OUT and did what JESUS told them to do, they proclaimed the name of JESUS and GOD to the world. They went to teach ALL nations, baptizing them in the name of the FATHER, the SON and the HOLY SPIRIT. They didn’t go up into a mountain somewhere with a bunch of other men and stay in a monastery and isolate themselves as the Catholics do…so I will have to agree they are NOT even close to being anything like the true apostles or disciples of the LORD JESUS CHRIST…

    • mardabo

      That’s wonderful news. So he doesn’t pray to Mary and the saints?

      • BuckeyePhysicist

        No one does. We can ask the saints to pray FOR us but only God can answer. The saints around the Throne pray as we do: In Jesus’ Name.

        • George Schulte

          Buckeye: when you ask “the saints” to pray for you, first of all you make them intercessors and secondly you talk to the dead.
          The issue is that the word of God says that Only Jesus is our mediator between us and God. Talking to the dead is called necromancy, forbidden by God. Another hing: the word of God calls all true believers “saints”.
          We have direct access to God’s throne of mercy. Why bother with necromancy anyway?

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            Jesus is the only mediator — that’s true of course — but anyone can intercede in prayer. Romans 8:38-39 says not even death can separate us from the love of God.

            Necromancy isn’t what you say it is and, in fact, it is condemned by the Church. Asking the saints to pray for you to God through Jesus is not necromancy because the saints can’t answer prayer — only God can — but they can indeed pray.

          • George Schulte

            Necromancy is contacting the dead and that is what Catholics do when they ask for intercession. Romans 8:38 talks about how deep the love of God is. How can that possibly justify what the Catholics do when they contact dead people? But the big question is why do the Catholics do it anyway when we have direct access to God? This practise is unbiblical, unchristian and unnecessary. And since you “venerate” those dead, it draws a very fine line to worship them. BTW: I was a Catholic before I became a Christian and I know what they do. My grandmother never bothered about Jesus but worshipped her fav “saint”. What a nonsense.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            No one worships saints. Get a grip. We worship God and Him alone.

          • George Schulte

            Why do Catholics in Spain and South America drag puppets of so called saints around on big floats ? I have seen people on their knees in adoration with tears in their eyes. Could that be possibly misconstrued as worship? Suggest you get a grip on the unbiblical practices in the roman church and get ut of there!

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            I could easily accuse Protestants of worshiping the Bible — but I won’t because that would be stupid but that’s how you sound when you accuse Catholics of this or that with no basis. Whatever goes on in a parade isn’t worship. I promise you we only worship God; that’s Catholic teaching! Why would I ever leave the only Church founded by Jesus?

            We are the original Christians.

          • George Schulte

            Evangelicals don’t worship the bible but consider it for what it is: the word of God. Catholics are the original Christians? The church was founded in Jerusalem, not in Rome. After all, you call yourself the Roman Catholic Church. It is an apostate, unbiblical, spiritually dead cult. That is why you should get out of it. Matthew 15;9 – Jesus said: In vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and commandments of men.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            The Church did start in Jerusalem. That’s absolutely correct. St. James, in fact, was the Bishop of Jerusalem as we read in Acts. Interestingly, we don’t call ourselves “Roman” as this began as an American Protestant anti-Catholic slur in the 1700s.

            Speaking of the Bible, there wouldn’t be one without the Catholic Church.

          • wandakate

            And it’s been added to, taken away from and translated into so many different versions and languages that much has been lost. And the Catholic Church even has their own version as do the Mormons and the Jehovah’s Witnesses…
            It’s watered down for sure.

          • Dorrie

            WRONG. There wouldn’t be a Bible without Yahweh, who is QUITE capable in preserving His Word! The Catholic church is TOTAL APOSTASY!

          • George Schulte

            Well, you even don’t understand your own history,otherwise you would know that the roman church was emphasised since 1208 when the east-west chrism began. Your pope is the bishop of Rome after all. But that is all not that important,isn’t it? Important is what you do with Jesus Christ , whether you are saved by grace through faith
            -in his once sin offering at the cross and his resurrection for the redemption of our sin and not rely on your own works of righteousness, religious works, rituals and manmade rules and oberservations. BTW: There wouldn’t be the bible without the Holy Spirit who inspired men to write and compile under His influence. Again: Has NOTHING to do with the “Catholic Church.” I strongly recommend to ditch your catechism and read and study the holy bible. You will then notice how vastly different the catholic faith is to the word of God.

          • wandakate

            George, could they be programmed, brainwashed and deceived? Are they indoctrinated into this belief, or the beliefs of the church you think?
            Pope Paul said that if you give me a child and enroll him in a Catholic school, he’ll be a Catholic for life. Ahhhh, maybe that’s the mindset.

          • George Schulte

            Yes, as an ex-Catholic I can say that you are correct. It starts when they sprinkle you with water as a baby and call it baptism when you become one of them. From then it’s indoctrination that ends when they give you the last rites. Studying the holy bible was discouraged since the medieval ages because knowledge of the word of God would have exposed their unbiblical belief system. I am eternally grateful that my Heavenly Father has revealed the truth to me by his grace. I pray that others like buckeye will see the error of this evil apostate system and get out of there.

          • wandakate

            From his comments about the Catholic Church being the only one etc, and the ONLY church founded by JESUS, and that they are the original church, then it doesn’t really sound to me like Buckeye is seeing any truth. Buckeye is still a Catholic at the end of the day George.

            They think they are the only true church and that unless you are one of them you will never be in Heaven…they have some very deep rooted beliefs that are hard to shake. If they could only see the truth, but it’s very hard for them since most have been Catholics all their lives.

          • George Schulte

            Unfortunately you are correct. It’s the same sad affair that they refuse to enquire and research themselves as the Bereans did in Acts 17:11.
            I think its not only the Catholics, but also the Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, etc. They stick to what they are born into without challenging it. And they remain in spiritual blindness thinking they got it all right because of their birthright.

          • wandakate

            George I will have to agree with you on this. And you are correct, it’s the others as well. People in general just remain into whatever religion (if any) that they were born into, whether it’s the right one or not. They just don’t know and don’t actually bother to check out anything different so they just stick to what they have even if the doctrine is all wrong. There are many “false” religions and only the ones who believe that JESUS (YESHUA-real name) was the Son of GOD and was born in the flesh and lived and died and went back to heaven to be with the FATHER GOD know any measure of truth.
            Therefore it’s a tough call. The bible does tell them to come out of that church and to NOT partake of her sins, but they seem to just skim over that and continue on to the next mass and confession all the while holding onto their rosary beads…Mary can’t save them, she’s dead in her grave and according to JESUS (she’s sleeping) until the 1st resurrection of the saints when she will then “RISE UP” and go with JESUS and His host of heavenly angels to wherever JESUS is going. His appearing, the 1st resurrection and the rapture of those dead and alive saints is ALL one big huge cataclysmic event, all 3 take place at once when the 7th trumpet blows and the angels go to the 4 corners of the globe to wake up the dead that died in CHRIST and call up/snatch up or rapture ALL those in CHRIST who were still alive and remained on the earth at that time…Many I believe to believe they will be going but they won’t go.

          • George Schulte

            Yes, wandakate, 100pc correct. And its heart wrenching when I see my family, workmates and many others subscribing to that system without challenging why they do and they don’t want to even discuss it so that they might see the truth. Just like sheep going to the slaughter. They are blissfully unaware, and don’t care and still think that they are on the right track. Worst case scenario is to work out some hours in purgatory and all will be good at the end. Such blasphemy- dimishing our Lord’s completed work at the cross

          • wandakate

            I understand believe me I do understand…I wrote about much of that in my books. As for purgatory, that is NOT in the Bible and thus there is NO truth to that whatsoever. I was told by a Catholic that it was all made up by the church in order to make money off of the grieving members. They charged so the dead people could come out of purgatory so that they could go to heaven…so apparently its just more of their false teachings.
            JESUS CHRIST died so that we might have entrance into the coming Kingdom of GOD on earth. People will go to either heaven or hell at the first or second resurrection of the dead, there is NO middle place.

          • George Schulte

            Yes, indulgences was one of the main trigger points for Martin Luther to write his 95 theses to spawn the reformation! Sola scriptura is always a good starting point, but vehemently opposed by the RC “church” Why can’t Catholics see that? It is all too obvious!

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            Sola Scriptura isn’t Biblical.

          • George Schulte

            Sola scriptura isn’t biblical? How so? It means that the Holy Bible is the word of God and according to 2 Timothy 3:16 its inspired by God and is profitable for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness. So what part isn’t biblical? Not good enough? Perhaps rather the commandments and doctrines of men? – What Jesus has to say about that is not encouraging, for instance in Matthew 15:9 or Mark 7:7 when he said: In vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. How about the Catholic Council of Trent as a point in case? It has annulled most of true biblical Christianity, condemning the bulk of true biblical doctrine and teachin teaching as “anathema” Come on?

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            The entire Bible is divinely inspired — on this we all agree. That’s not my argument.

          • George Schulte

            So what then is your argument?

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            The Bible is not our sole reference. It can’t be. There are things the Holy Spirit reveals which are not in the Bible but are consistent with it.

          • George Schulte

            So how do you know that it is indeed the Holy Spirit who reveals outside of scripture? The Council of Trent and the teachings of the RC church are a point in case. They cannot be inspired by the Holy Spirit because they are diametrically opposed to scripture!
            Why can’t be the bible our sole reference? It tells us everything we need to know. (remember 2 Tim 3:16) If people stuck to biblical teaching, you wouldn’t have a RC church!

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            2 Timothy 3:16 is a claim that the Bible is inspired and useful for many things. Nowhere does it say it’s all-inclusive.

            Sola Scriptura — or let’s call it what it really is: Bible worship — is a Lutherist invention. No Christian believed in “Bible alone” from Pentecost to 500 years ago. Furthermore, there was no New Testament for the first 400 years of Christianity and the Church grew exponentially. Thank God for my Church for compiling the New Testament!

            We love the Bible, or Sacred Scripture. We are devoted to the written Word of God and we read through the entirety of it in three year cycles. We are also devoted to the oral Word of God passed on since the time of the apostles. Is the word “Trinity” in the Bible? No, but we all believe in it. That’s Sacred Tradition. Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition form the unchanging Word of God.

          • George Schulte

            Protestants do not worship the bible.That is total nonsense.Who gave you that idea?
            It is not “your” (RC) church who compiled the bible, no need to show pride in it since the Holy Spirit did that.(2 Peter :20-21) And as a historical fact, the RC church wasn’t around for the first couple of hundred years since Christians were persecuted in the Roman Empire.
            The Old Testament was present right there since day dot and the NT epistles were written by the apostles. No involvement of the RC church in compiling anything. Christians have recognised what was to be included as orthodox scripture and what was not, again under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
            If you read the bible in it’s entirety, aren’t you perplexed and confused that you won’t find lots of practices of the RC church that are totally contrary to holy scripture? – Only a few samples: Indulgences, purgatory, Mary as Co- redemptrix, the sacrifice of the mass, the RC church is necessary for salvation, and I could go on and on and on. How can you reconcile all that with the word of God?
            The Bible tells us to obey the Word of God–to not go beyond the written Word (1 Cor. 4:6). But that is what you guys do and it’s just so wrong.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            Historical revisionism, bearing false witness, tomato, tomahto…..

          • George Schulte

            John 5:39 ff
            9You studyc the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
            Buckeye: the important question is: Do you have life, do you have Jesus, do you know that you have been saved by grace through faith through Jesus’ one off sacrifice, do you know that you have eternal life, or do you rely on a religious system that saves you through observances, rituals, “sacraments” and repetitive sacrifice of the mass?

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            I have been saved by the grace of Christ.

          • George Schulte

            That is great buckeye. I’m very happy for you. That is MOST important.
            Indeed. Thank our Lord God for it

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            Ask any practicing Catholic and you’ll get the same answer. We believe salvation is 100% on Jesus and 0% on us.

          • George Schulte

            So then why do they stick to all that unbiblical nonsense? Why don’t they just ditch it? Why is it that they teach a works based salvation?

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            We don’t. That’s fake news, George. Read James 5: We’re saved by grace and our faith and our works are responses to that grace. There are LOTS of lies about my Church out there.

          • George Schulte

            Again, that is great news, buckeye!
            The only problem is that it gets you ex-communicated. Reason being :Your church hierarchy has not revoked the anathemas of the Council of Trent. Hence, they are still active. Please report yourself to the next bishop to commence proceedings.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            You’re misinterpreting Trent. The anathemas should never be revoked but let me ask you this: Do you believe Ephesians 4:5? I have only responded to you with Catholic doctrine.

          • George Schulte

            Buckeye: I do believe Ephesians 5, but with qualifiers: It’s unscriptural to sprinkle little babies with water and call it baptism, since baptism is a proclamation of faith of the one being baptised. A baby has no concept of it and can’t proclaim anything. And the parents doing it on behalf of their kids is useless, since God has no grand children.
            They sprinkled me with water as a baby and as an adult when I was born again I was submerged in the water of baptism to identify myself with our Lords burial and resurrection.
            As for the anathemas: I suggest you to map these against scripture and see how they fare. You may still need to discuss this with your local bishop. (Hope you get my humour…)

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            St. Paul baptized entire households. He didn’t exclude infants. John 3:5 is clear on being born again of water and the spirit.

          • George Schulte

            House hold includes cattle, horses, dogs, etc. Do you think he baptised those? There are eligibility criteria for baptism , for instance profession of faith. That excludes cattle of course and babies. Acts 2:39 talks about the promise of the Holy Spirit. It says nothing about baptism, especially not baptism of infants-who have no idea what’s going on and cannot profess their faith.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            Let’s look to the Early Church Fathers. These men kept the Word of God as they learned it orally from the apostles themselves. It is up to Christian parents to raise their children in the faith from a Day One. We don’t wait! We profess! Here are some quotes from the Early Church Fathers. Notice how old they are! We’ve baptized infants from the beginning.

            “He came to save all persons by means of Himself – all, I say, who through Him are born again to God – infants, children, boys, youth, and old men.”

            – St. Irenaeus, “Against All Heresies,” c. 180 A.D.

            “Baptize first the children; and if they can speak for themselves, let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them.” Hippolytus 215 A.D.
            “In respect of the case of infants, you say that they should not be baptized within the second or third day after their birth – that the law of circumcision should be regarded. So you think that one who has just been born should not be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day. However, we all thought very differently in our council…. Rather, we all believe that the mercy and grace of God is not to be refused to anyone born of man…. As far as we can, we must strive that no soul be lost, if at all possible. For what is lacking to him who has once been formed in the womb by the hand of God?”

            – St. Cyprian of Carthage, “Epistle 58,” c. 250 A.D.

            “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God. No one is excepted, not even the infant.”

            – St. Ambrose, “Concerning Repentance,” c. 387 A.D.

            “Do you have an infant child? Allow sin no opportunity; rather, let the infant be sanctified from childhood. From his most tender age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Do you fear the seal of baptism because of the weakness of nature? Oh, what a pusillanimous mother and of how little faith! `Well enough,’ some will say, `for those who ask for baptism, but what do you have to say about those who are still children, and aware neither of loss nor of grace? Shall we baptize them too?’ Certainly, I respond, if there is any pressing danger. Better that they be sanctified unaware, than that they depart unsealed and uninitiated.”

            – St. Gregory Nazianzus, “Oration On Holy Baptism,” c. 388 A.D.

          • George Schulte

            For all intents and purposes, what those guys were saying is their opinion. Not under the authority of the word of God. It’s irrelevant as long as it doesn’t line up with holy scripture. Yes, parents have to bring up their children in a godly way. But it does not include sprinkling them with water and call it baptism.
            Biblical baptism is an outward testimony and confession of faith. In order to do so, one has to reach the age of accountability and understand what’s going on. Sprinkling babies with water is totally useless.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            Age of accountability? Where is that in the Bible? Nowhere in Sacred Scripture will you find baptism as a profession of faith. It’s a sacrament and it does something to the recipient. It’s not a mere gesture.

          • George Schulte

            Age of accountability is when somebody is old enough to make a concious decision. Throughout the word of God it’s written that this is required. I found at least 30 spots. Without a concious decision it’s not more worth than a bath! A sacrament? Where’s that in the bible????
            Yea some protestants do it wrong too unfortunately.
            BTW :from your standpoint what does it do to a baby? (apart from a wet forehead)

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            Baptism removes original sin: The stain of Adam. God made that baby and He can infuse His grace upon that child!

          • George Schulte

            Where is that written? Original and subsequent sin is removed by the cross and sacrifice of Jesus Christ, through faith!
            If the original sin were removed at baby baptism, how come that Catholic babies automatically demonstrate sinful behaviour? You know: You don’t have to teach them bad behaviour, they throw temper tantrums naturally, even right after “baptism” . But you have to teach them right living.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            The effect of baptism comes from the cross! That’s exactly right! We are baptized into Christ’s death (cf. Romans 6:3) so we may rise with Him to eternal life.

            You’re confusing the sin nature which baptism removes with the normal tantrums babies have. Of course we teach our children right living — and as parents that’s our Christian calling.

          • George Schulte

            Buckeye, I’m not confusing anything. Tantrums or call it rebellion is the result of our sinful nature. I was a baby myself (really) and I’m a father, so I know that baptism of babies does not rectify original sin. It does not do a thing except making their hair wet.

          • George Schulte

            Buckeye: You are actually very funny, you got me cracking up…. When you said that sola scriptura isn’t biblical are you’re saying that scripture isn’t scriptural – as in bible isn’t biblical? Or adherence to God’s word and God’s word alone isn’t scriptural? – That thinking is rather sad, though! Are you implying that God is not perfect and perfectly capable to communicate with us via the Holy Spirit and his word and that he needs the help of fallible, gullible men? What then is the point of reference? What then can be considered “truth”? Man, the washing powder used in the Catholic Church to brainwash is strong indeed, but certainly not dispensed by God!

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            Of course Scripture is inspired — all of it. Show me where in the Bible it says only the Bible is all we need. I’ll save you time because it’s not there.

            If all we needed was the Bible and the Holy Spirit then every Protestant would believe the same — yet you’re up you 40,000 separate cults and growing.

          • George Schulte

            Protestants agree on the main theme, but differ in some of the interpretations of the non-essentials. Cults do not agree on the main theme essentials and that includes the RC church.
            Ps: you still haven’t taken on board 2 Timothy chapter 3. Read it. Study it. It explains what we need. So, it’s there and you won’t save me time. It is also weaved throughout scripture as a self confirmation.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            Nowhere in Sacred Scripture is any claim the Bible is all-inclusive. I’ve read the whole thing.

          • Dorrie

            What far too many Christians don’t understand is that Yeshua didn’t come to start another religion! He was/is a Jew and He came to bring redemption first to the Jews, then the Gentiles. It was Constantine in the 3rd century who decided – without a single Jew or Hebrew – to declare what Christianity was – and they incorporated a LOT of Paganism into their new religion to appease all the Pagans in Rome! The first “church” was called The Way and it was the Catholics who SMEARED them by calling them “Christians.”

            Real followers of Messiah keep His Feasts & Sabbaths – which HE lived & taught, as did His disciples.

          • wandakate

            Nearly ALL Christians think that the Sabbath (the 7th day-today) was only for the Jews, and was NEVER for the Christians. I believe it’s still the 7th day, it never changed, it’s not obsolete, it’s not irrelevant, it’s still valid, it’s even our 4th Commandment which most Christians will tell you that the commandments were “done away with at the cross”…It’s the ONLY Commandment that starts with the word REMEMBER and why would we be told to remember something that He wanted us to forget????? It’s also the longest worded commandment.
            As for the feast I have NEVER done any of them but would love to be with a community that does do them, which is extremely hard to find. As you know that is NOT part of the mainstream Churches, even those Catholics don’t keep the feast of the LORD. Any minister or pastor will most likely tell you that the feast of the LORD are NOT necessary today, they were all for the Jewish nation.

          • Dorrie

            God NEVER changes. It was Catholic bishops at the Council of Nicea who changed Sabbath to appease the sun worshipers. Christians need to understand that!

            I observe the Feasts because God does His work thru them! The spring feasts have all been fulfilled, but not the fall feasts. And Yeshua said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” We are COMMANDED to keep His Feasts & Sabbaths! Not for salvation, but for LOVE!

            And almost NO seminary or Bible collages teaches anything about the Feasts. There were NEVER just for the Jews, otherwise Yeshua’s disciples wouldn’t have taken them to the nations and taught them! All of the disciples were Torah-observant, just as Yeshua was. Christians have tried to westernize the Bible, but it is a HEBREW BOOK! Meant for everyone who loves God and His precepts.

            When you start observing His feasts, you find Him in the MIDDLE of them, especially Feast of Tabernacles! He comes to tabernacle with His people! It’s such a joyous feast! A wonderful time of learning and sharing with HIM!

          • wandakate

            I don’t understand why the churches do not honor the feast of the LORD but as you well know they do NOT…And as I mentioned to you before I would but I don’t know a thing about them, I’ve never done them but I would if I knew how and how someone to do them with. I would need to be taught. Would like to find a community of like-minded souls to worship with but after almost 6.5 yrs. I’ve not found any yet. And YES we can know the season.
            He wanted us to be alert, aware, and awake to the signs of the times. He scolded the Pharisees for not knowing the signs of the times in their day and age, and wants us to be aware also. I believe He will appear in September. I also believe He was born at the end of September and NOT in December. JESUS is NOT the reason for the season as they say. His Birthday had nothing to do with Santa, trees inside our houses, mistletoe, stuffing ourselves with foods and candy or shopping until we drop. It’s not about any of those things. We were actually NEVER commanded to celebrate His birthday or our own for that matter. He told His disciples what to remember, He said, “This Do In Remembrance Of Me.” It was His death and His resurrection that was important to Him, it was NOT His birthday. Agree, disagree, great conversation I must add. I am happy to see that you know way more than the average person about these things, the feast as well as the holidays.
            Do you actually attend a church, and if so which one?

          • Dorrie

            An EXCELLENT book, I can recommend to you, to get you started, and a quick read, is “God’s Day Timer,” by Mark Biltz. He also teaches about the feasts in another book. Excellent reads.

            The problem is that in the year 325, CATHOLIC BISHOPS met at the Council of Nicea to set up doctrine of the churck. There wasn’t a single Hebrew or Jew among them. THAT is why the Lord’s Feasts & Sabbaths were left out. What they did was create festivals that included the Pagains of Rome (at least 50% of them were Pagan and worshiped false gods) and that’s where Christmas & Easter came from. Easter, is actually the birthday of the goddess Ishtar. They changed Sabbath to SUNday because the Pagans were sun worshipers. But we know God NEVER changes!

            A very good video that explains it in detail is on you tube by Jim Staley called “Truth or Tradition.” People simply refuse to let go of their worldly traditions, in spite of Colossians 2:8 and they cling to worldly traditions in spite of the fact that God makes it very clear how much He abhors Paganism of all sorts! Yet they call themselves Christian.

            That is why Yeshua said the path is VERY narrow and “FEW find it”! The door is going to close VERY soon and time is short. Many who say “Lord Lord” will be left behind and He will say to them, “I never knew you.”

            I watch El Shaddai live streaming on Sabbath. You can find it online. Because I live in a very rural area, I don’t have a fellowship and would never consider attending another “church” because I know too much about them. 😉

            You’re welcome to email me and after you see my email address, I’ll delete it, just let me know you saw it – yehudi3@q.com

          • wandakate

            Again very informative. I agree. Did you read what George wrote me after I told him about Easter and what YESHUA really said to the thief on the cross? He was telling me that it made no sense but it made sense to me and from my studies that is how it was explained. I read in scripture where nobody had been to heaven. Only Enoch and Elijah went without experiencing death (is that what you understand)? Also there were other times when YESHUA would be talking and would say, “I tell you this today”, b/c that must have been His manner of speech.
            Also in many passages JESUS told us that death is like “sleep”, the dead are NOT conscious, they don’t know anything.
            The “spirit” leaves the body at death and goes on and will be supernaturally rejoined with the “soul” (the person) at the time of the resurrection of the dead which is in effect the rapture or the “catching away” of the saints and the Glorious Appearing of YESHUA all wrapped into one big event. (Is that what you understand)? It’s a pre-wrath rapture. He appears in the clouds just prior to the “wrath” of GOD (the last 7 bowl judgments).
            Yes, people hold onto their traditions b/c it’s all they have known and were taught and it’s hard to unlearn what you’ve already learned for sure.
            By the way you said you are in a very rural area, what state do you live in? I’m in West Virginia for right now. It’s just me and my doggie. My husband died in 2011.
            I don’t attend a mainstream church anymore either for the same reasons that you don’t.
            I am hearing impaired so anything I watch must have closed captioned included or I can’t understand what they’re saying. I read everything on television. I do hear but not everything that I need to hear ha ha.
            Will be looking for your answers.

          • mr goody two shoes

            We Lutherans don’t know which day the actual 7th day after creation is . any more since accurate days and months and years are off a little by two to 4 Years and who knows how many days. What we do know is Christ is now our perfect sabbath rest.

          • mr goody two shoes

            Understand Christianity..com. Your welcome to Go to the web site ask any questions you have .

          • mr goody two shoes

            Sprinkling water in baptism is just as biblical as submersion. I don’t remember God in his bible commanding the mode to baptize with. .And the Bible is our pope! so when the bible speaks we confessional Lutherans listen .

          • Dorrie

            Have you seen photos of the Midvehs around the temple mount? You can google them. It’s where people, mostly priests at the time, would ceremoniously dip themselves (3 times!) completely, before going into the temple. That’s how baptism was done in the Jordan river as well, Complete immersion – 3 times.

            That only changed when the plague broke out in Europe in the Dark Ages. That’s when sprinkling started.

            And if you speak about the Bible, it’s customary to capitalize the B. And God is our Confessor, not man! Anyone thinking a man can forgive sins, doesn’t know God or His Word.

          • Dorrie

            You aren’t Christians! But you don’t get WHY! There were NO Jews or Hebrews at the Council of Nicea when Catholic bishops decided what was Christian – and they included all SORTS of Paganism – to appeas the Pagans in Rome!! Christmas & Easter are both COMPLETELY Pagan!! And if you read Torah (first 5 books of Bible) you’ll learn how our HOLY GOD ABHORS Paganism!!

          • wandakate

            Dorrie you are correct. That church is mixed with much Paganism. If you know anything about the Emperor Constantine you would know that he’s the one who incorporated all that into the church of Rome. He changed the original Saturday Sabbath to Sunday worship, thus changing the 7th day to the 1st day of the new week. This was in honor of the SUN god and not the SON of GOD.
            He decided that Dec. 25th would be JESUS birthday when the truth is JESUS wasn’t even born in Dec. He was born at the end of September (about now) at the Fall Feast of the LORD. Christian is fake, pagan, commercial and worldly…

            As for Easter, that was also pagan, b/c JESUS didn’t die on a Fri. and rise before dawn on a Sun. morning simply b/c He told them He would remain in the tomb (the depth of the earth) for 3 whole days and 3 whole nites or (72) literal hours and from Friday about 6 p.m. (when He was laid in the tomb) until before dawn on Sun. morning was NOT that amount of time.
            Being as there were 2 Sabbaths the week He died (one was an annual Sabbath-one the regular weekly Sat. Sabbath), He actually died on a Wed. afternoon around 3 p.m. and they took Him down and laid the body (after they prepared it) in the tomb around 6-6:30 p.m. where JESUS remained until about the same time on Saturday nite before it was dark again. He came out of the tomb, but later on He appeared to over 500 people before He ascended back to heaven to GOD the FATHER.
            Now, being as dark didn’t start until around 7 or so He arose before the Sabbath started on a Saturday evening just before dust and by the time the two women got to the tomb JESUS was already gone. So much for the Easter sunrise services. SO, there is much to be learned if we want the whole TRUTH, but it takes times and we must study to show ourselves approved.
            This is at least enough to get people to think about what really happened as I have written in my last book. Blessings.

          • Peter Stone

            Catholicism only started during the 4th Century when Emperor Constantine in AD.325 promoted a mixture of Christianity & Roman Paganism in attempt to unite the Roman Empire. True Christians never joined this church and that’s why they were severely persecuted. Anyway, many independent Bible Believing Evangelical churches today trace their roots back to the Apostles & Jesus Christ and not to the Protestant Reformation. By the way, if the Catholic church is the ‘Original True church of Jesus Christ’ then why does it teaches doctrines that contradict Jesus and His Apostles ?

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            Look up St. Ignatius of Antioch and St. Polycarp of Smyrna please. You’ll find they called the Church “Catholic” in the first century.

            Constantine merely legalized Christianity — the Catholic Church — in the Roman Empire.

          • Peter Stone

            Look up Saint Paul , Peter , John ,etc. (The Apostles predate St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Polycarp of Smyrna,etc) The Apostles’ teachings are similar to the Evangelical independent churches of today. By the way, Catholic means UNIVERSAL.

          • Peter Stone

            Catholic does not always mean Roman Catholic. Roman Catholicism came into existence only approximately 400 years later. (Please read Revelation 17 – most Bible scholars believe it is the Roman Catholic Church)

          • Dorrie

            Not quite. The Apostles were Jews who observed and taught Torah, just as Messiah Yeshua did. And the followers were called “The Way.”

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            St. Polycarp and St. Ignatius were both students of St. John.

          • Dorrie

            They might have read John’s letters, but they didn’t know him personally, nor did they know God.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            They both DID know St. John personally! Have you read their writings? He taught them very well indeed.

          • George Schulte

            Judas knew Jesus – and all the other apostles. And look what it did to him! He was taught well but he did not BELIEVE. YOu can have head-knowledge all you like and it’s not doing you any good if you don’t internalise it and believe and act upon it!

          • Dorrie

            LEGALIZED?? So before he came around, it was unlawful to be a believer???

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            It was! Before that the Church was predominantly underground in the Roman Empire. It was unlawful by Roman Law but not by God!

          • Dorrie

            Those who love Yeshua HaMashiach NEED no law that allows them to follow Him! You truly don’t know the Word, little man. Not at ALL!

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            I’ve read the Bible in three languages, most recently English.

          • Dorrie

            Reading and KNOWING are 2 different things!

          • wandakate

            Please don’t tell me that Catholics don’t worship the Mother Mary…I have known Catholics in my life. I knew one in Fl. and he was rapidly turning on the church and even told me that the False Prophet would be a Pope from the HRCC. He said to be aware that the antichrist would appear in 2019, so we’re getting close assuming he was correct. I think he was very close.

          • wandakate

            Sounds like you are calling the Catholic Church a “false” religious system…JESUS did tell us that when we know the “truth”, the “truth” will set us free, didn’t He?

          • wandakate

            Living saints (the church) people can indeed pray, yes that is correct, however you are asking saints that have died to pray which is IMPOSSIBLE, they’re dead and the dead according to scripture don’t know anything, they are not aware of what is going on anywhere. They’re NOT up in heaven playing harps and praising GOD 24/7. Mary (JESUS earthly mother) is also “dead”, and she’s not able to be doing any praying either. Nowhere in scripture does it tell us that Mary died and went to heaven. Enoch and Elijah died and went immediately to heaven, however nothing about Mary is there. Mary isn’t the Mother of GOD…GOD was a spirit being, only JESUS was in the flesh and the HOLY SPIRIT was to be the comforter that would lead us into all “truth”. The HOLY SPIRIT didn’t come on the disciples or anybody else until “after” JESUS arose into the clouds to go back to be with His FATHER GOD. He rose “up” in bodily form right in front of the disciples and He had told them that the HOLY SPIRIT would come to them after He had left them and would lead them into all “truth”…

          • Dorrie

            DEAD PEOPLE can’t intercede in prayer, Buckeye! They’re DEAD! Only the Messiah can intercede!! He is ALIVE!! Catholicism is PAGANISM strait out of the pit of hell!

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            They aren’t dead. Haven’t you read Romans 8:38-39?

          • Dorrie

            They are dead in THIS world! Have YOU not read Torah?!

          • George Schulte

            Again: Romans 8 talks about the love of God which is beyond death, affirming that we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. How can that be taken as licence to communicate with people who have died? And again: Why do you have a need for it when – as a true believer in Christ you have direct access to the throne of grace of the father through his son? Are you insulting Christ by bypassing him and requesting intercession by so-called Saints?

          • wandakate

            It’s what he’s always been taught…It’s extremely difficult to unlearn what you have already learned.

          • George Schulte

            It’s happened to me by God’s grace so it can happen to others. (I even was an altar boy and a youth leader in that system…haha)
            We must pray for their deliverance, starting with buckeye……Please join me.

          • Dorrie

            True, but if he loves God and wants the Truth, he will SEEK it! If he doesn’t seek it, he will be lost forever.

          • wandakate

            Buckeye that passage is speaking of NOTHING separating us from a “spiritual death”…When we die our “SPIRIT” (not our soul) goes out of the body and to GOD who gave it and it is preserved until the resurrection of the dead. We don’t lose our faith/belief at our death. Our mortal bodies go into the grave and they sleep the sleep of death according to JESUS. The “dead souls” (people) don’t know anything, they are simply dead. At death the breath of life (GOD’s spirit) leaves the body, as at our birth the breath of life entered our body and we breathed, we lived, we were alive. That exact same process reverses at death. Breath at birth and no more breath at death.
            At the resurrection when JESUS appears in the clouds to call “UP” the church that is when the soul/body and spirit will ALL be rejoined together (supernaturally) to meet the LORD in the air. It says this will happen in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet. Our mortal bodies will then change to immortality, and our corrupt bodies will be change into incorrupt one and we will meet JESUS at that time who will be in the clouds with his multitude of angels.
            This is BIBLE Buckeye, it’s not man made hogwash!!!
            ANYTHING other than this is NOT Biblical.

          • George Schulte

            Wandakate, again you’re correct! In just adding, death is a transition from a time based existence into a time less eternal domain. This is a seamless transition for the person experiencing it, without skipping a beat. But in the existing time domain (where the dead body is left behind) it can be eons of time. ‘Today you will be with me in paradise” said Yeshua on the cross to that thief, refers to the eternal outside of time domain, but the point of transition as far’s the thief on the cross concerned was “today” for him.

          • wandakate

            Interesting in deed. I need to make a comment here about what JESUS (YESHUA) said on the cross to the thief.
            We must realize that He didn’t go directly to heaven that day. He later (after He arose) on the 3rd day or 72 literal hours after He went into the tomb, appeared to over 500 people. He saw His disciples, He showed them His hands and His side where the spear entered His body.
            When the 3 of them were dying on the crosses, JESUS did speak to the thief after the thief said to Him, “Remember me when you come into your Kingdom”. Also keep in mind that this was NOT written in English.
            Hebrew, Greek and Latin ALL had to be translated by mortal man into what you and I read as English.
            In that day and age there were NO commas, there were NO punctuations, and NO capital letters either. Consequently, the comma that we see is in the wrong place. Being as He did NOT go to paradise/heaven or the Kingdom of GOD that day the thief couldn’t have gone there with Him on that very day and JESUS after all doesn’t lie. He wouldn’t have lied to the thief. Therefore this is what JESUS said, and this was how it looked to the translators…
            …itellyouthistodayyouwillbewithmeinparadise

            The translators inserted the comma after the word this, however they missed it by one word. It should have been after the word today. It would have added up then to make perfect sense being as it was something that JESUS was promising the thief b/c the thief had asked JESUS to remember him when He came into His kingdom, and JESUS wanted to honor that request, therefore this is what he said…
            “I TELL YOU THIS TODAY, YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE.” That was His promise to the thief. The thief was taken down and laid into a grave there somewhere and he’s still waiting in the grave (after all this time), however truth is JESUS intends to keep that promise that He made and He will keep it at the 1st resurrection of the dead when the saved rise up (including the thief) simply b/c JESUS wouldn’t break a promise and the thief will be will all of the rest of the saved souls that will “RISE UP” at the resurrection of the dead and will go in his new glorified body (his spiritual body) to be with JESUS forevermore…
            I certainly hope this clears up anything else that people thought b/c this is the truth. Unfortunately some of what we’ve been told and what is really Biblical are two different things. JESUS said, “When you know the truth, the truth will set you free.” Questions concerning topics are welcome or comments.

          • Dorrie

            Nor was there a man named Jesus, which is a Hellenic Greek translation.. His name is Yeshua 😉

          • wandakate

            Yes I have learned (had not been taught however) that GOD the FATHER was YAHWEH, and JESUS was YESHUA…A Messianic Jew told me that.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            In my language He is “Gesu.”

          • Dorrie

            HIS language is all that matters and His family called Him Yeshua. Catholicism has westernized the entire Bible and eliminated what it doesn’t like. Including the Lord’s Feasts & Sabbaths.

            You were invited to the party, little man! Meaning the Lord’s 7 feasts, but you’ve blown it off, thinking it’s just for the Jews, but remember, Yeshua was/is a Jew as well and His disciples took Torah and the Prophets to other nations, yet you choose not to follow Him, but Catholic dogma instead, which is fraught with Paganism.

          • George Schulte

            Jesus wasn’t much interested in grammatical punctuation and his intent was to assure the thief about what’s happening once the ordeal on the cross is over – that he will be with him in paradise on that day.
            What sense would it make to say: I tell you this today……Of course he did say it to him today, there was no need to emphasise the fact. He didn’t say it yesterday and won’t say it tomorrow, so what you’re saying makes no sense at all.
            Upon death, Jesus immediately descended to the abode of the dead (well excluding his body) which was partitioned into paradise (for the righteous dead) and Sheol (for the evil ones) Jesus went down there to preach to the departed dead, immediately after his death.(1Peter 3:19)
            Jesus rose from the dead physically AFTER 3 days when he was seen by his mates and others.
            One must consider that paradise and Heaven is two different things and paradise is empty today, because Jesus took the inhabitants with him, including the thief from the cross ( Matth 27:52,53). They are in heaven now.
            It is true that upon death, the body rots away, waiting for the resurrection, but the spirit of a believer goes to heaven with all it’s conscious faculties (Phil 1:21-23 and 2 Cor 5:7-8) It is a seamless transition. You wouldn’t know that you had been lying in a grave for eons. Us humans have problems understanding the difference between our existing time domain and the eternal state that has no time constraints.

          • George Schulte

            Jesus wasn’t much interested in grammatical punctuation and his intent was to assure the thief about what’s happening once the ordeal on the cross is over – that he will be with him in paradise on that day.
            What sense would it make to say: I tell you this today……Of course he did say it to him today, there was no need to emphasise the fact. He didn’t say it yesterday and won’t say it tomorrow, so what you’re saying makes no sense at all.
            Upon death, Jesus immediately descended to the abode of the dead (well excluding his body) which was partitioned into paradise (for the righteous dead) and Sheol (for the evil ones) Jesus went down there to preach to the departed dead, immediately after his death.(1Peter 3:19)
            Jesus rose from the dead physically AFTER 3 days when he was seen by his mates and others.
            One must consider that paradise and Heaven is two different things and paradise is empty today, because Jesus took the inhabitants with him, including the thief from the cross ( Matth 27:52,53). They are in heaven now.
            It is true that upon death, the body rots away, waiting for the resurrection, but the spirit of a believer goes to heaven with all it’s conscious faculties (Phil 1:21-23 and 2 Cor 5:7-8) It is a seamless transition. You wouldn’t know that you had been lying in a grave for eons. Us humans have problems understanding the difference between our existing time domain and the eternal state that has no time constraints.

          • wandakate

            There were other times besides that one that JESUS used the expression, “I tell you this today”, not just one occasion.
            In Matthew 27:52-53, this is what I am looking at…

            And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had “fallen asleep” (meaning had died) were raised, and coming out of the graves AFTER His resurrection, they went into the holy CITY and appeared to many.

            You see it doesn’t say they ascended up into heaven or paradise or the Kingdom of GOD with JESUS. It’s happening AFTER the resurrection but before the ascension. No, it’s says that they went into the holy city. I think they would have been into Jerusalem. Because it says next that the centurion and those with Him, who were guarding JESUS, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, and they feared greatly, saying, “truly this was the Son of GOD!”
            And then in vs. 55…And many women who followed JESUS from Galilee, ministering to Him, were there looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, Mary the Mother of James and Joses and the mother of Zebedee’s sons. Then in vs. 57 it tells us that when evening came Joseph asked Pilate for the body of JESUS.
            ALL OF THIS TOOK PLACE BEFORE HE WAS BURIED. He had NOT ascended unto the FATHER at that time…

          • George Schulte

            Without researching the references you mention, one cannot support a case of doctrine about it.
            What Jesus said on the cross to the thief still stands from my earlier post and makes no sense the way you describe it. (The comma issue)
            The only other time when Jesus was mentioning “most assuredly I tell you, that today, even this night, before the cock crows twice, you will deny me three times” (Mark 14:30) provides a clear time based reference- for a reason and it makes sense in this instance, regardless of grammatical punctuation.

            About those saints that rose from the dead in Matthew 27:5-53: Well, quite frankly, the bible doesn’t say anything about what happens to them after their excursion and sightseeing tour around Jerusalem was over. I’m quite sure that they won’t be hanging around anymore today. So where have they gone – where are they now?
            When they are not around anymore today, do you think they went back to sleep (died again??) Or since they were “saints” went to join Jesus in paradise / heaven after their excursion?

            You seem to be building a case for “soul sleep” which is unbiblical. It does not mean literal sleep. Sleeping is just a way to describe death because a dead body appears to be asleep. The moment we die, we face the judgement of God. (Hebrews 9;27) For believers, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:6-8, Phillipians 1:21-23). It would make no sense for Paul saying “to die is gain” if he knew he would have to “sleep” in the grave and would have rather hung around for the benefit of his people.
            For unbelievers, their fate is clear: They end up in the lake of fire, but that is after the ‘white throne judgement” yet in the future. Unbelievers hang around in a temporary holding facility awaiting their fate until then. They are in torment. It means in either case conscious continuum, albeit absent from the body, which has decayed, but will be resurrected in the future.

          • Dorrie

            Well said, George, and I agree completely.

          • wandakate

            Hello again…I was NOT intending to be building any kind of a “sleep” case as you said. As for the thief I still say he’s in the grave, he’s waiting for the resurrection. He’s NOT aware that he’s dead b/c he doesn’t know anything…

            I just realize that JESUS Himself did say that “death is a sleep”. I found it in the old as well as the new testament so I’ll share some here just to let you know where I base what I wrote…
            Job 14:12 and 21…SO MAN LIES DOWN AND RISES NOT, TILL THE HEAVEN BE NO MORE, THEY SHALL NOT AWAKEN, NOR BE RAISED OUT OF THEIR “SLEEP”. HIS SONS COME TO HONOR, AND HE KNOWS IT NOT. Note: When we die we are unconscious, we’re unaware of anything that is going on around us. If we were in heaven, we would be aware.

            Psalm 146:4…HIS BREATH GOES FORTH, HE RETURNS TO THE EARTH, IN THAT VERY DAY HIS THOUGHTS PERISH. Note: Once we die, we are unable to think or do anything else b/c the breath of life has returned to GOD, and is supernaturally preserved until the resurrection. If we were in heaven then there is absolutely NO reason for a 1st resurrection…pointless.

            Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6 and 10…FOR THE LIVING KNOW THAT THEY SHALL DIE; BUT THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING, THERE IS NO WORK, NOR DEVICE, NOR KNOWLEDGE, NOR WISDOM, IN THE GRAVE WHERE THEY GO. Note: Satan has tried to deceive people as he did Eve, but GOD’s word gives us ample proof that when someone dies, everything for that person ceases to exist.

            Daniel 12:2…AND MANY OF THEM THAT “SLEEP” IN THE DEPTH OF THE EARTH SHALL AWAKE, SOME TO EVERLASTING LIFE, AND SOME TO SHAME AND EVERLASTING CONTEMPT. Note: GOD’s word is abundantly clear, when someone dies they are not awakened or aware of anything until the resurrection at JESUS glorious appearing when He appears in the clouds.

            John 5:28-29…MARVEL NOT AT THIS: FOR THE HOUR IS COMING, IN WHICH ALL THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES SHALL HEAR HIS VOICE, AND SHALL COME FORTH; THEY THAT HAVE DONE GOOD, UNTO THE RESURRECTION OF LIFE; AND THEY THAT HAVE DONE EVIL, UNTO THE RESURRECTION OF DAMNATION. Note: Someday everyone who has ever lived on earth will be raised back to life to receive their life’s reward from Adam and Eve until this very minute.

            John 11:11-14…OUR FRIEND LAZARUS SLEEPS; BUT I GO, THAT I MAY AWAKEN HIM OUT OF SLEEP…THEN SAID JESUS UNTO THEM PLAINLY, LAZARUS IS DEAD. Note: JESUS referred to death as a sleep b/c to the Creator, death cannot hold someone forever whose life was safe in His hands. They already belonged to Him.

            So, if you took time to read this you will see that death is a sleep, and they were really in their graves regardless of what we were told, b/c we have been deceived, but the deceived don’t realize they’ve been deceived so they continue to believe the lies about traditional teachings and various other things. Satan’s job was deceit of which JESUS actually warned us all about in Matthew 24.
            It’s NOT a salvation issue for sure, but it’s just proof from scripture that what is written and what has been preached are two different things…
            Paul was speaking of his earthly “tent”, and how he would rather be with the LORD than in his ailing, painful earthly dwelling. So would I. I would rather be with the LORD than in an aging body full of pain and problems…And I will be with the LORD when that time comes, and so will Paul…

          • wandakate

            I do know that unless we research and actually take the time to STUDY we won’t know what is and what isn’t the truth. No wonder that SO many Christians are capable of being led astray by false preachers. No wonder satan has done a good job of deceit in our churches. No wonder most Christians don’t really know what the Bible talks about. No wonder they don’t know their passages, can’t quote scripture b/c they are NOT studying and researching the word, meaning that satan can then creep in and take over without them really realizing what’s going on. Such a shame.
            It’s there IF they care enough to look it all up to prove to themselves that it is there.

          • George Schulte

            wandakate, I wholeheartely agree on this one!
            Be filled with the knowledge of [God’s] will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so that you may walk in a manner worthy of the Lord (Col. 1:9-10).
            BUT: You didn’t respond to where the saints in Matthew 52-53 ended up after their excursion into Jerusalem? Do you think that they eventually went back to their graves for another round of “sleep”? I’m quite certain that they won’t hang around Jerusalem anymore today!

            What do you think Steve meant in Acts 7:59 when he was stoned and saying: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit”. If, when he was about to go “sleep” where do you think his spirit was going?

            What does Paul mean when he says: “For me to live is Christ and die is gain”? What is gained when he uncounciously sleeps in death? To be free from illness and the ravages of age is really no gain for somebody “sold out to the cause of the Lord” when he has to “sleep” in an unconcious state. He was keen on being with the Lord but saw his active duty on this earth more important at that stage.
            What about 2 Corinthians 5:6-8- Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be
            present with the Lord.” (KJV) . This talks about death, where the body decays but the spirit is with the Lord, with all concious faculties operational.
            About Ecclesiastes 9:5. What’s it really saying? The dead know nothing?? What about the continuation of that verse where it says: they have no more reward and their memory is forgotten? Really? You remember your loved ones when they die, don’t you? No more rewards? You know that we may have rewards in heaven at the Judgement seat of Christ.
            The writer is making reference to “under the sun” about 30 times. It means that he speaks about events here on earth while being alive. If you go back to verse 3 it says that it’s all about the evil of mankind and the madness in their heart. Later on he speaks about “vanities of vanities, all is in vain”. Is that really so? Do we Christians have hope or is all in vain? We must understand the context and meaning of when and why things are said in the bible, my dear!

          • wandakate

            Oh George you have presented me with a lot of questions and want my opinion etc. and that would actually take me along time, longer than I have to spend doing this…
            Maybe we should just agree to disagree and move on. I do know that Stephens spirit went to be with the LORD. I have already spoke of the SPIRIT and where it goes at death. Remember I mentioned that the spirit leaves the body at death and goes to be with the LORD and will be preserved supernaturally until the resurrection of the dead? I’ve been over this already.
            I don’t believe the scripture tells us exactly what happened to them, if it does I can’t recall where they are or what happened to them.
            Too many questions here all at once. Did you read ALL of those passages that I presented to you on the state of the dead/sleeping souls/saints?????
            Didn’t you believe any of that? You must not believe that GOD does supernatural things, like keep the spirit of a human so it will rejoin the body at the resurrection…

          • Dorrie

            I think you answered him beautifully, Wandakate 🙂

          • George Schulte

            No worries my dear! I pray God’s blessings over your faith walk. Yes I do believe that God does do supernatural things. He’s real good at it and does it all the time!

          • wandakate

            George I’m here. Had a few mins. here to see if I could get back to your questions. I don’t remember what all I answered thus far, but I see the one about Stephen, and you ask me where do you think his spirit was going, but I do think I told you it went back to GOD at his death and then he slept.
            As for Paul, most likely he was saying that for him to live is CHRIST b/c he was living his life according to what CHRIST expected of him (which is more than most of us are doing).
            When we are old and in pain death may be welcomed b/c we won’t be in any earthly physical state anymore and there will be no pain any longer either.
            Many say “come LORD JESUS”, b/c they would rather be absent from their body knowing that they will be present with the LORD b/c they are already saved. I would rather be absent from my body and present with the LORD and I will be when that times comes for me b/c I would be confident that I was going to be out of here and with Him for eternity which would give me comfort.
            Death, then sleep until the 1st resurrection of the dead, the rapture and the Glorious Appearing of JESUS is when I will “RISE UP” from the grave and go to be with Him forevermore. If we love Him and are confident in Him then that would be something that we should look forward to. No more pain, sickness, crying, no more death, for all of those things would have passed away.
            I believe we need all three faculties in order to function, the mortal body/soul and spirit.
            The spirit goes on to be with LORD (for safe keeping) until it is rejoined into the body/soul. THEN at the resurrection of the dead, they are ALL joined together and are at that time supernaturally changed from mortal to immortal, and from corrupt to incorrupt b/c our mortal bodies can’t enter the Kingdom of GOD (heaven) in the state (condition) they are currently in, therefore they will be (just as it tells us) changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the LAST trumpet. That George is when He will appear and get the church out of here just prior to the “wrath” of GOD coming down onto the unrepentant sinners, of which the church is NOT appointed to, meaning consequently the church will NOT suffer the last 7 judgments. Hope this all made sense. Forgive me for not getting back on this sooner.

          • George Schulte

            think our confusion comes from us humans not fully understanding the difference between our time based existence on earth and time-less eternity – and our transition from one to the other. I know that when I will breathe my last, at the next “second” of my existence, my spirit will be with my saviour. Perhaps, in earth based timing there could be eons between the two, but for me it’s just an instant. (That is just a personal thought). And it will be a conscious experience. My body will decay when death is before the Rapture. But I will consciously be with Jesus in either case and won’t even skip a beat. Eventually the spirit will be re-joined with an incorruptible glorified body.

            When you say that we need all three faculties in order to function, the mortal body / soul and spirit, that is only partially correct and only applicable to this earth based domain.

            We need to understand that God is spirit and we are made in God’s image. (our spirit, not our body) God is able to think, feel, see , etc as a spirit being – without a body, and so will we. Our body’s sensory inputs are the interface to the existing earthly environment. We don’t need that when we’re in eternity but may have new sensory inputs in the glorified body, adapted to a new environment. Very much like Jesus’ resurrection body!

            So essentially we both are trying to say something very similar, with me only disagreeing that at death only the body will “sleep” but not the spirit.

            I find it quite funny when you say: The spirit goes on to be with the Lord for “safekeeping”. Do you think that this is like putting it on the shelf until the time is right???? Don’t you think it will be a conscious experience whilst in “safekeeping mode”?

            That is not exactly biblical. And to me it’s important what Paul says in Philippians 1:21. He says that if he lives in the flesh, that is fruitful labour for me. (Notice that he’s not saying that he’s sick and tired about his pain ridden old body and rather be dead and resting in the grave) And then he goes: Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I’m hard pressed between the two, My desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. (Therefore meaning when he dies, he’s with Jesus, making no reference to his resting body in the grave) So he’s saying that to depart and be with Christ is preferential. That does not mention anything about sleeping in a grave because he’s sick and tired of his ailments. His emphasis is on the expected presence with Jesus upon departure. Sorry my dear, your thinking here does not hold water.

          • wandakate

            Yes the body/soul/spirit is only for this life (earth based) as you say, I thought you would know that’s what I meant…
            Our glorified immortal, incorrupt bodies will be like JESUS body. We’re going to the coming Kingdom of GOD on earth and it’s a Spiritual Kingdom b/c GOD is a spirit and we MUST worship Him in “spirit and in truth”, correct?
            ALL who die release their “spirit” to GOD. I believe that everyone that ever died is in the grave waiting on JESUS (YESHUA) to come for them and call them “UP” from the grave. Remember the passage about the 12 yr. old girl that “died” and JESUS said she was “asleep” and He would wake her up. It says that her “spirit” reentered her dead body and she awoke…How bout that?
            Would we see GOD if we had died and were up in heaven? The Bible tells us that nobody actually saw GOD except JESUS. I don’t know what happened with Enoch and Elijah but that’s what it says.

          • George Schulte

            This side of eternity we won’t have all the answers. But you know what? God has a wonderful plan and it will all be good at the end. He loves us! I trust him all the way and it’s an exciting journey, any which way.

            Aren’t you glad that there is no purgatory and all that nonsense, or what about the Hindu’s belief in reincarnation, duh…..

            That 12 year old girl that died: Yea, she was re-animated. Glad she wasn’t gone for too long, she would have been a bit on the nose! Her spirit was with God beforehand and re-entered her body. But that doesn’t mean that she was “unconscious” whilst her body was “asleep”

            Nobody has seen God? Interesting discussion! People on earth could not see God the Father and live. Moses had to hide in that rock cleft when God passed by. But in John 14:8 Philip asked Jesus to show them the Father and Jesus replied that if they had seen Him they had seen the Father. So people have seen God and have lived since Jesus is truly God!

          • Dorrie

            The spirit is eternal

          • wandakate

            Any communication with the “dead” is from the evil one satan, it’s NOT coming from JESUS or GOD the FATHER…
            The Bible specifically warns us against praying to or communicating with dead people.

        • wandakate

          I think they use his “real” name which is YESHUA, not JESUS. JESUS is an “English” word put in the Bible by the writers…YESHUA isn’t an “English” word…

        • KP

          Mike Gendron/Proclaiming the Truth, is a wonderful source for showing the errors in Catholic teaching. Remember how subtle the enemy is to deceive.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            Catholic Bible 101 is even better for defending Catholic teaching which is free of doctrinal error.

    • wandakate

      Doesn’t really matter who he is, it’s his underlined motive, and purpose that matters. It’s his agenda in the end of time that will sent him either up or down.
      JESUS knows the condition of his heart. Doing all this good is wonderful but it’s NOT going to save the man from the eternal flames.
      Being just a good person, or a good worker never will get anybody into the coming Kingdom of GOD. Many people look busy and work for the glory and admiration of “man” and not for “GOD”.
      Our FAITH and our WORKS both matter to GOD…but we can’t WORK our way into heaven, b/c we are saved by the grace of GOD and our WORKS should then follow. First we are saved/baptized etc. then we will WORK b/c we want to please the LORD, we want to show Him that we are serious about doing His work on earth in whatever capacity we can and are able.
      Remember in James it tells us…Our FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD!!!
      James asked…”Can your FAITH alone save you?” His answer was “NO” it will not. They are a combo deal, Faith and Works go hand in hand in order to be obedient to the LORD.
      JESUS told us in Revelation…”Behold, I am coming quickly, and my “reward” is with Me, to give to each according to his WORKS shall be.”
      We see right there that our WORKS do matter to JESUS, b/c we will be rewarded for whatever we do as in…We are our brothers keeper, as in…love one another as I have loved you, and as in…do unto others as you would have them do unto you. So, its “not” just our faith alone that matters. Plus our “motive” is also a key. We “must” do everything for the right reasons…

      • BuckeyePhysicist

        Amen!

  • mr goody two shoes

    Southern baptist all believe differently from each other. The convention pretends that southern baptist doesn’t have women pastors or homosexual pastors.. But we know they do have them and they can’t stop it because there really never agreed to walk in the same faith with each other. They have the baptist faith and message but its not binding where ever one of their church’s even has to accept that. To call your self a southern baptist church is the price of a sign and a few donations to the general fund and your in. Southern baptist have more women pastors than all of Wels pastors who have only Men pastors. And we have over a thousand men pastors. They have way more women pastors than that.

  • Reason2012

    “Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”
    Mark 7:7

    “And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest [be baptized]. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
    Acts 8:36-37

    “But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.”
    Matthew 23:5-10

    “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
    Ephesians 2:8-10

    “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
    Romans 4:4-5

    “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven [carved] image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:”
    Exodus 20:4

    “I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.”
    Isaiah 42:8

    “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”
    1 Timothy 2:5

    “And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.”
    Luke 1:46-47

    “And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.”
    Luke 11:27-28

    “Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he [Jesus] did once, when he offered up himself.”
    Hebrews 7:27

    “By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”
    Hebrews 10:10

    “Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.”
    Acts 16:29-31

    “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.”
    Matthew 7:13-15

    “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
    Matthew 7:21-23

    “And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.”
    Revelation 22:8-9

    • Amos Moses – He>i

      what these two are doing ….. NOW THAT is a truly IFD ……….

    • wandakate

      Well if you compare these Bible verses with what the Catholics do and believe you have two different ball games here. JESUS said…
      “Many will say to Me on that day, LORD, LORD, but ‘only’ the ones who ‘do’ the ‘will’ of the FATHER GOD will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven”. Be ye NOT deceived.

  • Of course it will be a model for the WORLD, just as Saddleback church is a model for the World. “Come out from among them and be ye separate”.

  • The Mohicans

    If you get Jesus Christ wrong then you get it all wrong. Be careful in what you hear about Catholics. Mary was is not the mother of GOD. She has no more status in Heaven than anyone else that has died. Mary is still in the ground waiting for waiting for Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to return. Mary had other children and wasn’t a perpetual virgin. A artist painted a picture of Mary in a bikini of roses and Catholics protested that it was blasphemy, WRONG because Mary isn’t Deity, Mary has no power. It’s GOD the Father, GOD the Son and GOD the Holy Spirit, NOT GOD THE MOTHER. Now that’s blasphemy. Going to confess your sins to a man in a box is wrong, they aren’t Jesus Christ. On Rick Warren, I’m sorry for his loss, but when someone commits suicide they don’t go to Heaven. WAKEUP and lookup for your redemption draweth neigh, Amen Praise GOD Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, Metatouto Maranatha!

    • wandakate

      WOW, that you for TRUTH!!! Yes, be very cautious in who or what you believe. There is much deceit in the world, as JESUS warned us there would be, especially in the end of time (now).
      NO, Mary was NOT the mother of GOD…Mary was JESUS earthly Mother. And YES (a big yes), Mary is still in the ground (in her grave) waiting for her son JESUS CHRIST to appear in the clouds with angels and raise her from the dead grave. Mary knows nothing. The dead don’t know anything according to scripture. They are ALL not aware of what’s going on. Prayers to Mary are useless b/c she’s NOT able to do anything for anybody being as she is dead. You are right, she has NO power whatsoever.
      The Priest in the little room with the curtain has NO Godly powers either. He is NOT GOD, and “only” GOD can forgive our sins through our prayers to JESUS (in JESUS name) and NOT any prayers to Mary. Suicide is the taking of a life (thus murder) and unfortunately they don’t (as you say) go to Heaven (the coming Kingdom of GOD).
      And NO we did NOT replace the Jewish people.
      Oh there is so much wrong with this picture of unity. We are to be joined together with like minded souls (people). The unity that JESUS wanted was a spiritual unity (being on the same page) with ALL of our spiritual thoughts and the Catholic Church and the Christian church are NOT on the same page with each other, thus not in spiritual agreement.
      This is ALL about the forming of the One World Religion that Warren and the Pope want as well as Kenneth Copeland, Joel Osteen and James Robison. JESUS told His disciples in Matthew…”Do NOT be deceived”…

    • BuckeyePhysicist

      We call Mary “Mother of God” to emphasize the divinity of Christ.

      • Dorrie

        That makes ZERO sense! It’s a well known fact that you ALSO call her “queen of heaven,” which is the epitome of Paganism!

        She is NEITHER “mother of God,” OR “queen of heaven”! She was a simple Jewish girl that God chose. PERIOD. End of story. She wasn’t a virgin all her life, she had children with Joseph.

        • wandakate

          They exalt Mary and all the while should be exalting JESUS, simply b/c its JESUS (YESHUA) that is able to save them and NOT Mary. Such deceit, what a shame they fall for all that.

          • Dorrie

            I watch OAN (One America News) channel because it’s very conservative. I like Liz Wheeler’s Tipping Point on that show – BUT … on Monday night’s show, she ended with, “Holy Mary mother of god pray for us and the hour of our death.” It nauseated me! A prayer should be to God, not a dead woman – that’s NECROMANCY and God FORBIDS it! But Catholics are literally BRAINWASHED with all things Pagan!

          • wandakate

            Don’t know anything about OAN, never heard of that, or the woman either. But I do agree that Mary died and went to her grave where she remains until the resurrection of the dead saints (the church). She’s NOT aware of anything up in heaven as far as I know. Dead people don’t pray.
            In scripture I read in Psalm 146:4…HIS BREATH GOES FORTH, HE RETURNS TO THE EARTH; IN THAT VERY DAY HIS THOUGHTS PERISH.
            (Once a person dies, they are unable to think or reason or do anything else b/c the breath of life has returned to GOD. They are NOT aware of anything that’s going on)
            How is she able to intercede/pray for anybody when she’s not conscious of anything? She’s NOT hearing their prayers to her.
            Acts 2:29,34 tells us…THE PATRIARCH DAVID IS BOTH DEAD AND BURIED, AND HIS SEPULCHRE IS WITH US UNTO THIS DAY. (It’s evident that the Apostles knew that King David had NOT yet gone to heaven at his death, but was still in his tomb.)
            So bottom line, I agree that GOD forbids this and apparently millions have been misled.

  • Chris Radmo

    Rick Warren is part of the foreign Council of relations for the UN ! His goal is a one world government with the one world religion sound familiar ! It also doesn’t surprise me that the Catholic Church will be involved in this as well ! After all the antichrist is going to come out of the European common market ! Watch out all for tricky Ricky and his purpose driven strife church ! Very sad day for some of the Assemblies of God churches hope they wake up ! God bless everyone …

  • KP

    Rick Warren prayed to the muslim ‘jesus’ named isa during obama’s first inauguration. In other words he was praying to an anti-christ. You have to be an Biblically illiterate to believe they are one in the same. Muslim’s believe that Jesus is not the Son of God.
    Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denies the Father and the Son.
    He is also pushing Chrislam to align the Christians and islam. This is heresy. They are pushing the ‘all god’s are the same’ agenda and we all know whose agenda that is.

    • wandakate

      Makes sense. Has satan infiltrated today’s churches? Many of them he has sorry to say, but JESUS warned us this would happen.
      It’s all part of the coming One World Religion of faith, the Catholics, the Muslims and the Christians ALL attempting to combine to be joined together as one in unity. However this is NOT the unity that JESUS CHRIST has prayed to GOD the FATHER for. Different JESUS, different purpose, different unity.

  • Bill Scudder

    AMEN AND AMEN. The RCC is a counterfeit Christianity

  • BuckeyePhysicist

    Apparently Protestants haven’t read Philippians 2 — or forgot what that chapter means.

    • Dorrie

      We Jews know what it means, but your comment is mean-spirited and not loving at all.

      • BuckeyePhysicist

        And yours ARE?

        • Dorrie

          Mine are solidly pro-Yeshua HaMashiach and His Torah. If that offends you, perhaps you should re-read Philippians 2 🙂

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            We read that today at Mass.

          • Dorrie

            Ahh yes … Mass. Yet you ignore the Sabbath. Sad . . .

            Yeshua said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” The 4th Commandment is about keeping Sabbath. It’s not a suggestion, it’s a commandment. I guess you don’t love Him 🙁

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            We celebrate the Mass on Saturday too.

          • Dorrie

            So for you, Sabbath is just another day, rather than the Lord’s Sabbath. Since you have church on every day…Sabbath is no different than the rest of the days. And if it is, do you go shopping or out to eat after church? Or do you keep the day holy?

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            I go home after Mass.

          • Dorrie

            But do you keep the day holy?

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            I certainly try!

          • Dorrie

            Ok, just one more question: Why don’t you keep the Lord’s Feasts & Sabbaths?

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            It’s completely optional. If you draw closer to Christ by keeping the Old Testament feasts, by all means participate! However, there’s no longer a requirement to do so as we in St. Paul’s letter to the church at Colossae.

            “Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.” (Colossians 2:16-17)

          • Dorrie

            Commandments are OPTIONAL??? Where does it say that in scripture??

          • wandakate

            Dorrie are you a Messianic Jew or a 7th Day Adventist? Just curious.
            When speaking of honoring the Sabbath I don’t really think most people would know what to do or not do in order to honor it. I don’t do any WORK on that day, no dishes, no cleaning, laundry etc. Rest, reading, researching topic of Biblical interest and staying around home, and that’s about it for me, but some people would do more and perhaps some less than me.
            I do know that the days of the week never did change. What was the 1st day then is still the 1st day. In scripture they talked about going to the tomb on the 1st day (right after the Sabbath had ended) which tells me that Saturday came right before Sunday, which means that Saturday had to be the 7th day and it still is, but you know that people need to make excuses to justify their behavior.

          • Dorrie

            Messianic Jew. 7 Day Adventists don’t observe the Lord’s Feasts and only observe Sabbaths that aren’t associated with them. There are 2 Sabbaths in a week during Feast of Tabernacles and Passover. The normal one, and a High Sabbath – the first day of the feast.

            I don’t do any work on Sabbath either, Wanda. Though it’s important to not get wrapped around the axle with it. The Ultra Orthodox Jews take the toilet paper off the roll the day before and those in hotels in Israel, won’t push the button for their floor, so the elevators are all set to stop on every floor on Shabbat. Those are the kinds of things Yeshua railed against when he went after the Pharisees. Their priests stacked so many extra stuff onto the “rules” that it was a burden for the people. That was when Yeshua said, “My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” And it is SUCH a joy to walk in His footsteps and keep His Torah. He is the LIVING Torah!

          • wandakate

            OK, I wasn’t sure what the Adventist did or the Messianic Jews, but I thought the Jews did the LORD’s Feast.
            By the way my name is Wandakate, not Wanda by itself. I don’t like that name alone at all, thanks…

            I do know about the High Holy Day Sabbath or (the High Day). Did you know there were two Sabbaths the week that YESHUA died? My computer doesn’t recognize the word YESHUA and puts a red line under it alerting me that it’s not a correct word…amazing.
            Also I noticed some calendars now (one in a Dr.’s office) that start the first day of the new week with Monday instead of Sunday, can you believe? Have you seen any?
            Yes I knew about the over 600 laws/rules that the Jewish people were burdened with. They were in effect captives and YESHUA came to set the captives free.
            So you didn’t tell me what church you are affiliated with. Also who actually does the feast of the LORD? I don’t know of any that do.
            Are all of these Sunday keeping Christians and the ones who don’t keep the Sabbath and do the feast going to make it into the Kingdom of GOD????? I wonder.
            If you asked any professing Christian if the 10 commandments are relevant they will probably say, “of course they are”. Then if you asked them about the 4th one they look at you funny and tell you that it was done away with at the cross, and doesn’t have to be obeyed anymore…
            They have as you know been told (programed) to believe that Sunday took the place of the Saturday Sabbath and they observe it instead, and then they go home and work all afternoon mowing the yard, washing the laundry, going out to eat, going shopping etc. and don’t think a think about any of it.
            So how is Sunday any different that any other day to them? I’ve been told just pick a day. There is NO specific day, any of them will do as long as you take one out of 7.
            I’m still trying to find that in the Bible ha ha.

          • Dorrie

            Yes, I know there were 2 Sabbaths when Yeshua was crucified. – the normal 7th day Sabbath and the High Sabbath – first day of Passover. There are 2 Sabbaths the week of Passover every year, as well as 2 for Feast of Tabernacles.

            No, I haven’t seen any calendars showing Monday as the first day of the week … very odd.

            633 Laws, to be exact. But more than 2/3 of them are for temple priests, not the everyday person. Yeshua’s “setting the captives free” was in regard to Sin, not Torah.

            I didn’t tell you that I’m affiliated with a church because I’m not. I thought I made that clear, sorry. As far as Sunday Christians entering the Kingdom of God, that’s up to Him. He gave us free will to choose the wide path or the narrow and said, FEW find the narrow path. I have a feeling that those who live holy to Yahweh, but don’t keep Torah or Sabbath, might still see the Kingdom, but will possibly be GUESTS at the Marriage of the Lamb, but not the BRIDE.

            How is Sunday any different than other days of the week? It isn’t. It’s the first day of the week and a work day. The 7th Day, Shabbat, is to be kept holy. It’s the 4th Commandment, not a suggestion. There isn’t any leeway, but Sunday Christians believe Sabbath was changed to Sunday at the Council of Nicea in 325 by Roman bishops. (Not a single Jew or Hebrew was at that council, which in my opinion was totally illegitimate. God didn’t bless them for changing HIS SABBATH. Because God NEVER changes. He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

          • wandakate

            Yes I know about the High Holy Day Sabbath being annual. B/C YESHUA said that He would remain in the tomb for 3 days AND 3 nights, that contradicts a Fri. crucifixion as well as an early morning (before dawn) resurrection (so much for the Easter Sunrise service at many churches.)
            I have learned from studying that He actually died on the week of two Sabbaths (the 7th day one and the annual one) and therefore was crucified on Wed. at approximately 3 p.m. and arose on Saturday nite just before sunset for Sunday. That explains the 3 days and 3 nights perfectly. The women it tells us went to the tomb BEFORE sunrise on the 1st day (the day AFTER) the Sabbath (the weekly one) and He was gone. Meaning He would have had to have risen on the Sabbath and not the following morning before the sun came up.
            Does this make sense or is this a part of the way you understand it.
            Since Easter is Pagan then it does make sense to me.
            There would also have been 2 preparation days that week, one on Tuesday for the Annual Sabbath and the other one of Fri. for the regular weekly Sabbath. Did I get that right?

            I had a friend out in Missouri that taught all of this to me and showed me how to study it all for the truth other than what was taught in the churches I’d been too.
            Before that I had no idea about any of it, all new news to me.

            Why do you believe the way you do? And are you living rural alone or with family or are you in a community of like-minded believers? I find various people’s lives fascinating.

          • Dorrie

            I’ve been learning and teaching all that for many years. The wave of truth is washing over America, but at times it seems very slowly and time is passing. The door is about to close.

            I believe the way I do because it’s all right there in black & white in God’s Word. All one has to do is LOOK at it.

            I’m entirely alone here. My friends have either all died or moved away and I have no family close by. “Like minded believers” are all over the world and I speak with them on the internet. And like I said yesterday, I watch Mark Biltz live streaming on Shabbat. He’s one of the very best teachers of Torah. (El Shaddai Ministries) He finds and shares remarkable nuances of the Hebrew words that are lost when studied in English. An interlinear Bible is the best for study when one doesn’t know Hebrew. I’ve been learning Hebrew for over 10 years, but have only scratched the surface.

          • wandakate

            Dorrie, did you read what I wrote directly about this? I had talked about YESHUA dying on a Wed. and rising on a Sat. nite just before the 1st day so that when they got to the tomb He was already gone according to the Angel. I had asked you if anything I was writing was making any sense to you but you didn’t tell me if it did or it didn’t…I was waiting on a reply for that particular one, thanks.
            I can’t remember exactly where you live, was it Canada? Oh how I would love to visit there. I know that parts of it are supposed to be beautiful. I would love it there in the spring and summer but probably would be too chilly in the fall and too cold in the winter.

            Are there many Christians in Canada or lots of churches there or are those people more like the ones over in England? In England they have fallen away from GOD and they’re covered with Muslims there who are taking over.

            I live alone myself in the country about 17 miles from the nearest medium size town. I live with my 8 yr. old female dog who is super smart.
            Husband of many years passed on in 2011, and 2 daughters are grown and aren’t saved and neither was my husband. They are very into the world and traditional, and stubborn and selfish unfortunately. I didn’t get what I thought I had raised. There are 5 children between the 2 of them. I haven’t seen any of them in along time.

          • Dorrie

            Yes, I did and I commented on it. You’re right about the time frame. And no, I’m not in Canada, I’m in Oregon. Sounds like your prayer life is pretty busy with unsaved family. That’s sad.

            There’s a very good study on when Yeshua was born, as well (Not Dec. 25), but He was conceived during Hanukkah (the feast of lights – He is the Light of the World) and He was born at Feast of Tabernacles (which begins this Wed. at sunset, by the way) because God wanted to tabernacle with His people.

            And He is in the CENTER of these feasts and you experience His presence more then, than any other time during the year. So this Thursday is a high Sabbath. I absolutely LOVE this feast and build my own little Sukkah each year, even though I’m here by myself.

          • wandakate

            That’s good that I was correct about the day and resurrection. From a Fri. afternoon until before dawn on a Sun. never made sense but that’s what they are taught and they believe it as I did until I knew the truth (by studying for myself and praying for the wisdom to understand). PTL.
            I just got what you wrote but a black area is covering it so I can’t reply it’s blocked out so I had to come up here to reply.

            As for Dec. 25th I did now know (after many years) that YESHUA was NOT born in Dec. I discovered it was supposed to have been at the end of September, do you know if that’s correct or not?
            YESHUA “never” commanded us to celebrate His birthday that I know of. He told His disciples to celebrate his death and resurrection back to the FATHER. When it was the LORD’s supper He said, “This do in remembrance of me”, but nothing about a birthday.

            Plus if I’m not mistaken the 3 wise men (or ever how many their were) did NOT go to see the newborn baby b/c of His birthday. The gifts were NOT birthday gifts, they were gifts to celebrate the new KING. He was the King of the Jews and as was their custom they were bringing gifts to celebrate the new King. Do you happen to know if that is correct or not?

            For some reason I got you and another woman confused as to where you live, and she’s in Canada. Well I would like to visit you and study and learn from you but you are very far away b/c I am over in West Virginia which is probably over 2,500 miles or more from you or a 3 days trip at least.
            I’ve been very alone since 2011 and it was a big adjustment to get used to.
            Do you travel, do you drive? I drive and I travel if there is somewhere that I want to go.
            I’ll look for your reply. We should be e-mailing each other but I know we shouldn’t give e-mail address out on here so that won’t work.

          • Dorrie

            I had left my email for you and asked you to let me know when you got it, but after about 24 hours, I deleted it. Here it is again, but I will have to delete it by sunset PDT. yehudi3@q.com

            I believe Yeshua rose after sunset on the Saturday after His crucifixion. So of COURSE when the women went to the grave just after dawn the next day, the stone was rolled away. 3 nights = Wed, Thurs, Fri. 3 days = Thurs, Fri., Sat. Sunset began another day, just as it did in Genesis 1.

            And regarding the “wise men” who were actually ASTRONOMERS of the day and knew the night sky. We don’t know how many, but they reached Yeshua when after he turned 2 years old. And yes, they were bringing very pricey gifts to the King.

            I’ve been in your state, but it’s been awhile. My late husband worked for the American Hotel Assoc. as a field rep. So I’ve been in all 50 states, and most of them many times. I’ve been profoundly alone since 2010.

            Hope to hear from you in email soon!

          • wandakate

            Dorrie, thx for reposting the address b/c it’s NOT here anywhere. I just looked at all of the previous replies and there is NOTHING here with your e-mail so it’s must be floating in cyberspace…

            As for as the women going to the tomb I’m reading from the KJV in John 20:1…Now on the FIRST DAY of the week (Sunday) Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was STILL DARK (before dawn, not after), and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. Matthew has worded it slightly different in Matt. 28:1…Now after the Sabbath (Saturday), as the first day of the week began (Sunday) to dawn (just prior to being daylight), Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. Mark and Luke say “very early in the morning?. It’s doesn’t really matter, but I do believe they went very early (before sunrise).
            As for of being resurrected If we went in the tomb at approximately 6 then I would assume it was approx. 6 when He arose which would (according to what time it got dark there) be either just prior to the 1st day or on the morning of the first day, but 72 literal hours would be most probably just prior to the first day meaning He actually arose on His special day (the 7th day), the Sabbath.
            The day He said was special, it was holy and He Himself had set that day aside as a day of R and R, and of doing good as well. Because YESHUA said, “Tis good to do good on the Sabbath.”

            I actually had heard that YESHUA was a little older when the “wise men” reached Him with their special expensive gifts (not birthday presents) as we know, but most Christians think there were only 3 of them and only 3 gifts and that they got to Him when He was still in the manger, so I’m NOT sure which one is correct there.
            As soon as I get back I’ll sent you mail. I have to go do my laundry and pay for some propane that I bought.

            And yes, GOD timing is NOT the same as the way we keep time as I mentioned before and I see you agree with that also. Not sure we’re on the same page with all of it but there is much that seems to be the same. Very unusual for me to find anybody that is in agreement with what I have learned.

          • Dorrie

            I know it wasn’t, I waited about 6 hours, then removed it.

            And no, it doesn’t matter because He rose after sunset the day before 😉

            He wasn’t a baby when they got there with their gifts. I think you’re over-thinking some of it, but the main thing to remember is that “Christmas” was created by the Romans and is FULL of Paganism.

            When some people claim “oh, it doesn’t MEAN that to me!” Then point them to the video by Jim Staley on youtube called “Truth or Tradition.” You will also enjoy it I think because everything you’ve come to believe is talked about on that video. It isn’t how WE feel about a Pagan holiday, it’s about how HE feels! Are we living to please HIM or ourselves. Check out the video and email me what you think about it. I’ll look forward to hearing from you!

          • wandakate

            Yes He probably was older, b/c what we were taught and what really was are two different things.
            You are right it’s about how He feels about our worldly holidays, like Easter, Halloween as well as what is called Christmas.
            He told us in the Bible to NOT do as the pagans and the heathens were or had been doing…IF we follow Him then we should be heeding that.
            And I agree that Christmas was invented by the Romans, although I thought and had read that Constantine was the one responsible but others may have influenced that. and that it has Pagan origins.

            I am familiar with Jim Staley and I think I saw Truth or Tradition before. I have seen some of his videos in the past.
            Just back from laundry room and they are washing, but now I need to go back to throw them in the dryer. I was gonna write but I had to make a pitcher of ice tea.

            I’ll will write so you can have my e-mail address in a little while. I need to cut up green pepper and onion to put in with my homefries that I will make with my eggs for supper too and tonite I’ll write you.

          • Dorrie

            Yummmmm!!

  • peanut butter

    Fixing to get his chrislam on. An obvious look at all religions brought together under one roof. The pope already kissed the koran.

    • wandakate

      Correct the name of the coming One World Religion will be “Christlam”. It’s derived from Christian and Islam but the Catholics are included.
      Did you know that before Congress starts their new session in Oct. 17 they have mass first at the Cathedral in Washington, D.C. AHHH, does that tell us anything?

      • Dorrie

        That’s sure what Rick Warren is trying to bring about.

  • rick tanner

    I disagree with Mr. Warren and his Roman Catholic Religion connection. But perhaps Mr. Warren is not a true Bible believing Christian after all….