Starbucks CEO to Shareholder: If You Support Biblical Marriage, Sell Your Shares


Seattle, Washington — At the annual Starbucks shareholder’s meeting this past Wednesday in Seattle, company officials told those who support Biblical marriage that they “can sell [their] shares in Starbucks and buy shares in another company.”

According to reports, during the meeting, the founder of Corporate Morality Action Center expressed concerns over the company’s support of homosexual marriage. Tom Stobhar from the organization cited that the company’s stance affected shareholder earnings after Starbucks backed efforts to legalize same-sex “marriage” in Washington state last year. The company’s announcement had resulted in boycotts against the coffee king.

“In the first full quarter after this boycott was announced, our sales and earnings — shall we say politely — were a bit disappointing,” shareholder Tom Strobhar stated.

“Not every decision is an economic decision. Despite the fact that you recite statistics that are narrow in time, we did provide a 38% shareholder return over the last year,” responded Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz. “I don’t know how many things you invest in, but I would suspect not many things, companies, products, investments have returned 38% over the last 12 months.”

“Having said that, it is not an economic decision to me. The lens in which we are making that decision is through the lens of our people,” he continued. “We employ over 200,000 people in this company, and we want to embrace diversity — of all kinds.”

The response drew both applause and cheers.

Starbucks CEO Howard Shultz

Schultz then concluded by saying, “If you feel, respectfully, that you can get a higher return than the 38% you got last year, it’s a free country. You can sell your shares in Starbucks and buy shares in another company. Thank you very much.”

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While some shareholders appear to be doing just that, a number of Starbucks customers have also refused to frequent the franchise as long as it remains opposed to Biblical marriage. One website, DumpStarbucks.com, launched a nationwide campaign to urge coffee lovers to go elsewhere for a cup of joe.

“We are urging customers across the globe to ‘Dump Starbucks’ because it has taken a corporate-wide position that the definition of marriage between one man and one woman should be eliminated and that same-sex marriage should become equally ‘normal,'” the effort’s website outlines. “As such, Starbucks has deeply offended at least half its US customers, and the vast majority of its international customers.”

As of press time, there were over 49,000 signatures on the campaign’s petition against the company.

“Starbucks is using its resources to invalidate traditional marriage in the US and redefine the institution of marriage despite the strongly held views of so many of its customers, including me,” the petition outlines. “Therefore, I will no longer purchase anything from Starbucks until you change your corporate values to be more reflective of my own.”

“Starbucks is proud to join other leading Northwest employers in support of Washington State legislation recognizing marriage equality for same-sex couples,” Starbucks outlined in a written statement last year when it announced its support for Washington’s push to legalize homosexual “marriage.” “We are deeply dedicated to embracing diversity and treating one another with respect and dignity, and remain committed to providing an inclusive, supportive and safe work environment for all of our partners.”

Starbucks was also among the over 300 U.S. corporations that signed onto a recent Supreme Court brief in an effort to overturn the nation’s Defense of Marriage Act.

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  • Richard

    It’s time to protest against Starbuck’s management. Let’s let them know that we do not agree with their agenda! Everyone switch to another coffee vendor for two months or until Starbucks yields! No mercy, no business!

    • Dale

      Actually I think with that me and my 100 plus group members will be giving Starbucks are money because unlike you we have read the bible and find no morality in selling our daughters or buy foreign people as slaves which the bible supports and if you want to use the bible as a shield for your fear and hate then you must agree with it everything in it.

  • victor

    Buy put options, cause this tells me that they will go down. overpriced anyway. Arrogant CEO is like the capitan of new Titanic.

  • Linda

    Not only do they speak out against Christian marriage, they support Planned Parenthood!

    • Dale

      hate to tell you this but your religion is not the only one with marriages. as for planned parenthood do you have a clue of what they do ?? Yes they help people find an abortion doctor but more importantly they help family’s plan so that they can support their children. They help women with birth control and getting health checkups they provide education on sex and stds and so on.

      • michael

        one of the few sane and well informed comments in here. Thank you for so much, including your brain that you are using.

  • BeBe Ivy

    To Michael Begley…I see You signed Your name as “Idiots” and I would certainly not call You that. I believe You just misunderstood the verses You were referring to.

    First of all if You are quoting God, be sure it is His commandments. When the writers of the OT did not put His Words in red, I’ll never know. As I’m sure You are aware, most of the stories in the Bible are the mistakes people have made and God wants us to know and not follow the same way. That is true with Lot, Noah, Moses, Abraham, Jacob, David and the list goes on.

    However, when these men repented and decided to live righteously with great faith in God, God forgave them for their sins. Remember, God created everyone with a free will to choose. It was always their wrong choices that got them in trouble. All thru the Bible God has given us all a chance to repent from our wicked ways and follow Him.

    Even when mankind wanted things that God knew was not good for them, God did not stop them from choosing those things, but He did put stipulations on them. God allowed man to find out for himself they were wrong choices and when they repented and followed Him, He forgave them.

    We must remember that God’s timetable is not endless. There will come a time when His timetable runs out of time. Remember the flood? God gave that generation 120 years to repent, they didn’t, therefore they were destroyed in the flood.

    I noticed on Your second #9 You stated it doesn’t say anywhere in the Bible “Don’t marry people of the same sex.” You are correct, it doesn’t say marry, but God, Himself spoke these words to Moses: “You shall not lie with male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.” (Leviticus 18:22). I hope You will read this chapter and see what God has done to the nations that have practiced these abominable customs. God warned His people again in chapter 20:13. Even if you disregard the Old Testament, you can find the same message in the New Testament; Galatians 5:19-21; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Romans 1:26-32 and Revelation 21:8.

    Please, please, don’t disregard God’s Holy Word. It is a Love Story from God to you, me and everybody else that has ever lived on this earth. He loves us that much that He sent us His Word to read and obey and He sent us His Son to die in our place, so we wouldn’t have to. On top of all that, as if that isn’t enough, He has sent His Holy Spirit to guide us and for us to lean on and learn from, ’cause God knows how hard it is down here on this sinful earth.

    • Jim Willis

      Excellent, BeBe! Great response!

    • Dave

      While this is a modern interpretation of the existing Bible, God never said anything to Moses in English. The modern text (and going back to the King James version are merely re-translations of various books written by a number of authors in several different ancient languages. The meaning of words varies over time. The Aramaic word translated in Leviticus 18:22 was normally used to refer to prostitutes at a temple. The verse would translate as “You must not lay with a male prostitute at the temple as you do with a woman”. While this is the most often quoted questionable translation from Aramaic, Greek, and Roman texts, there are many, many more such examples.

      The Old Testament was a collection of stories or fables that instructed Jews on behavior. It also incorporated historical facts about wars and families, but many of those are also questionable in current translations.

      The New Testament is the ONLY testament that Christians should be concerned with. It is a story of sacrifice and love. There was no room for hate from Jesus, except for those that would distort His message.

      Romans 2:1 should be a guide here – though I’ll admit that Paul’s letters may also have been mis-translated over time.

    • Dale

      really so how many sins have you committed according to the Levic

      Here’s chapter and verse on a more-or-less comprehensive list of things banned in the Leviticus book of the bible. A decent number of them are punishable by death.

      Unless you’ve never done any of them (and 54 to 56 are particularly tricky), perhaps it’s time to lay off quoting 18:22 for a while?

      1. Burning any yeast or honey in offerings to God (2:11)

      2. Failing to include salt in offerings to God (2:13)

      3. Eating fat (3:17)

      4. Eating blood (3:17)

      5. Failing to testify against any wrongdoing you’ve witnessed (5:1)

      6. Failing to testify against any wrongdoing you’ve been told about (5:1)

      7. Touching an unclean animal (5:2)

      8. Carelessly making an oath (5:4)

      9. Deceiving a neighbour about something trusted to them (6:2)

      10. Finding lost property and lying about it (6:3)

      11. Bringing unauthorised fire before God (10:1)

      12. Letting your hair become unkempt (10:6)

      13. Tearing your clothes (10:6)

      14. Drinking alcohol in holy places (bit of a problem for Catholics, this ‘un) (10:9)

      15. Eating an animal which doesn’t both chew cud and has a divided hoof (cf: camel, rabbit, pig) (11:4-7)

      16. Touching the carcass of any of the above (problems here for rugby) (11:8)

      17. Eating – or touching the carcass of – any seafood without fins or scales (11:10-12)

      18. Eating – or touching the carcass of – eagle, the vulture, the black vulture, the red kite, any kind of black kite, any kind of raven, the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat. (11:13-19)

      19. Eating – or touching the carcass of – flying insects with four legs, unless those legs are jointed (11:20-22)

      20. Eating any animal which walks on all four and has paws (good news for cats) (11:27)

      21. Eating – or touching the carcass of – the weasel, the rat, any kind of great lizard, the gecko, the monitor lizard, the wall lizard, the skink and the chameleon (11:29)

      22. Eating – or touching the carcass of – any creature which crawls on many legs, or its belly (11:41-42)

      23. Going to church within 33 days after giving birth to a boy (12:4)

      24. Going to church within 66 days after giving birth to a girl (12:5)

      25. Having sex with your mother (18:7)

      26. Having sex with your father’s wife (18:8)

      27. Having sex with your sister (18:9)

      28. Having sex with your granddaughter (18:10)

      29. Having sex with your half-sister (18:11)

      30. Having sex with your biological aunt (18:12-13)

      31. Having sex with your uncle’s wife (18:14)

      32. Having sex with your daughter-in-law (18:15)

      33. Having sex with your sister-in-law (18:16)

      34. Having sex with a woman and also having sex with her daughter or granddaughter (bad news for Alan Clark) (18:17)

      35. Marrying your wife’s sister while your wife still lives (18:18)

      36. Having sex with a woman during her period (18:19)

      37. Having sex with your neighbour’s wife (18:20)

      38. Giving your children to be sacrificed to Molek (18:21)

      39. Having sex with a man “as one does with a woman” (18:22)

      40. Having sex with an animal (18:23)

      41. Making idols or “metal gods” (19:4)

      42. Reaping to the very edges of a field (19:9)

      43. Picking up grapes that have fallen in your vineyard (19:10)

      44. Stealing (19:11)

      45. Lying (19:11)

      46. Swearing falsely on God’s name (19:12)

      47. Defrauding your neighbour (19:13)

      48. Holding back the wages of an employee overnight (not well observed these days) (19:13)

      49. Cursing the deaf or abusing the blind (19:14)

      50. Perverting justice, showing partiality to either the poor or the rich (19:15)

      51. Spreading slander (19:16)

      52. Doing anything to endanger a neighbour’s life (19:16)

      53. Seeking revenge or bearing a grudge (19:18)

      54. Mixing fabrics in clothing (19:19)

      55. Cross-breeding animals (19:19)

      56. Planting different seeds in the same field (19:19)

      57. Sleeping with another man’s slave (19:20)

      58. Eating fruit from a tree within four years of planting it (19:23)

      59. Practising divination or seeking omens (tut, tut astrology) (19:26)

      60. Trimming your beard (19:27)

      61. Cutting your hair at the sides (19:27)

      62. Getting tattoos (19:28)

      63. Making your daughter prostitute herself (19:29)

      64. Turning to mediums or spiritualists (19:31)

      65. Not standing in the presence of the elderly (19:32)

      66. Mistreating foreigners – “the foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born” (19:33-34)

      67. Using dishonest weights and scales (19:35-36)

      68. Cursing your father or mother (punishable by death) (20:9)

      69. Marrying a prostitute, divorcee or widow if you are a priest (21:7,13)

      70. Entering a place where there’s a dead body as a priest (21:11)

      71. Slaughtering a cow/sheep and its young on the same day (22:28)

      72. Working on the Sabbath (23:3)

      73. Blasphemy (punishable by stoning to death) (24:14)

      74. Inflicting an injury; killing someone else’s animal; killing a person must be punished in kind (24:17-22)

      75. Selling land permanently (25:23)

      76. Selling an Israelite as a slave (foreigners are fine) (25:42)

    • michael

      the only problem with your quotes and interpretations of leviticus code, is that you are pulling one interpretation out, and you are missing the many, many others… I don’t know if you’re a woman or not, but let’s start with that, because under Levitical codes, you are now as a woman, an abomination and are defiled, to be being stoned to death. We can take it on down the pathway… I have read and studied and been through 50+ years of biblical studies, both in church and in University, both in Baptist, Episcopal, Catholic, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the LDS Church or, informally, the Mormon Church), lived in the Middle East during military service 50 years ago (read Torah and Quran many times… both differences and similarities), Methodist, Lutheran, United Church of Christ, Church of Christ, where do I stop in my humble praise of God.

  • Lee T
    • Dale

      live and let live I have a short time here alive Id rather not waste it hating people or trying to deny people there happiness. Instead Id rather spend it helping others and protecting others

  • http://facebook Kenneth Howard

    In Hell there will be plenty of Coffee drinkers. not a one of them will be saying “Give me another cup of coffee.” they will be praying God will you forgive me for disobeying your written word. Please forgive me of all my sins. I want to confess to you I was wrong and I now love you. Will you forgive me now I will confess you were right. Please forgive me. Helppppp meeeee pleaseee. Eternal torment will be forever and forever and forever without end. Are you sure you want to dishonor God’s word and mock his goodness.Be sure and your sins will find you out. whatsoever you sow you shall reap.

    • Dale

      only god judges you should be careful about who you thinks goes to hell or you may find your self in there place.

      Act as jesus would the man who offered bread to others who helped strangers who never sought to send others to hell

  • Donald

    I don’t drink coffee, but if I did I would drink Starbutts. Apparently their CEO didn’t learn any lessons from the recent flak about A&E with Phil Roberston. It’s time to stand up America. I think an all out boycott on Starbutts is the only way to make some of these idiots to understand we don’t accept their beliefs. If I owned stock in Starbutts I would definetly sell it, because its value is about to drop.

    • Dale

      We will stand for ours and I hate to tell you this but your fear that makes you act like a cornered raccoon will only lead to your beliefs being looked upon the same way the Nazis are now.

  • Marilyn

    BeBe Ivy,

    I completely agree with you. I really enjoyed reading it & I like the way you answered.

    GOD bless you and yours!

  • Not a religious moron.

    “I hope You will read this chapter and see what God has done to the nations that have practiced these abominable customs.”

    You do realize that the parts of America and other European countries where gay marriage is legal are doing exceedingly well and have lower divorce and abortion rates per capita.

    But hey, I’m sure America would be better if treated homosexuality like they do in Russia, Iran and sub-Saharan Africa. Yeah, those are the places we should try to be more like.

  • Jim

    If conservatives tolerated gay marriage and liberals tolerated gun rights, the country would be a better place…

  • Penny

    My not shopping ever at Starbucks has nothing to do with any of their or any one else’s beliefs….I don’t shop there because it is the nastiest tasting coffee I have ever had and I refuse to pay exhorbitant prices for horrible coffee.

  • Kristin D.

    The bible also has many passages condoning slavery. Therefore, it makes it completely irrelevant because otherwise we would still be in a pre-civil war social era. You can’t pick and choose which of the teachings you believe in the bible… then not award others that same right. Also, you think God is judging me for who I love.. and all the while, you think he isnt judging any of you for hating people you’ve never even met? Get real. I had the chance to work for Starbucks and it was a great experience.

  • jack

    Psalm 2
    (1)Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
    (2) The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,
    (3) Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
    (4) He that sitts in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
    (5) Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

  • Sue McMahon

    Congratulations on the results of your boycott! SBUX stock price has risen from $52 to $77 during your crusade. You’re absolutely right, it’s about the economics and clearly Howard Schultz did the right thing from both an ethical and business perspective.

  • Ben Huffman

    Good for Starbucks and Howard Shultz. It’s great to see a company take such a strong stand for equality.

  • James Fenter

    The Founding Fathers went to great lengths to ensure that the United States of America would NEVER have an official religion. Christianity is just one religion among many. And further, most of the time when a “Christian” is describing himself as such, he means only his particular denomination (Baptist, Catholic, Presbyterian, Episcopal…etc).

    For those of you who didn’t pay attention in sixth grade government class, YOUR particular set of religious values have meaning to YOU and only you. You don’t get to force them on other people. If you don’t like same-sex marriage, then don’t marry someone of the same sex. But the fact that someone else may do that has ABSOLUTELY no impact on your life, unless you start obsessing about what somebody else decides to do with their own life.

    And if you’re going to be that much of a busybody, all upset and unable to enjoy life because someone else is enjoying theirs, then I don’t know what to tell you. Perhaps you should go see a therapist, because it certainly sounds like a mental disorder.

  • Russell Byrd

    I find it extremely amusing that some “Christians” think they can get away with accusing a company of intolerance against them for their intolerance.

    If you really support biblical marriage I hope you are ok with your husband having 200 concubines

  • Rosalind Kalmans

    That is why church and state are separate. I support Starbucks stand and will continue being a customer, I do not support Chick F-la’s stand on choice but will continue being a customer. It is my choice to make these decisions.

  • Dave

    This is free enterprise, and free speech at work. Like the guy said, the management have returned excellent profits for shareholders – that’s free enterprise. Saying he wants to support all staff and advocating for a position is free speech, protected under the constitution – the company is entitled to do that. 49,000 worldwide boycotting anything won’t make any difference, but that is THEIR free speech right, so more power to them. Starbucks has millions of customers in their stores every day, so I don’t think they will notice.

    As to opposing biblical marriage – no, they do not; in fact, they are very supportive of biblical marriage. They also support reforms in civil law for same-sex couples. That is NOT interferring in any way with biblical marriage, which by definition (being biblical) is a construct just of the Christian faith – and companies should not pick which religions to support.

  • Loreen Nettles

    Ummmm… This country believes in biblical values! That is
    The foundation of this country… And the bible says no homosexuality.
    Therefore if you don’t like that you are more than welcomed to move!!
    Just because you don’t care what God thinks about doesn’t mean I have
    To support your sin! I love you and the Lord loves you more ,sincerely. But….. sorry… No can do!!!

  • Brinean Crews
  • sharon

    That is the most ignorant CEO I’ve ever heard of : 1st anti-gun and 2nd he is pro gay !!!! I will Never buy there again and I hope ALL that own stocks sell them !!!!! IDIOTS abound in that company !!!!!

    • Steven Resnick

      Most ignorant CEO you’ve ever heard? He believes that people have the right to love whoever they want, yeah such an ignorant person.

      There’s plenty of companies that do not allow fire arms in their stores, so get over yourself and the funny thing the only one looking ignorant is you.

    • Matt

      Yeah, Sharon. More for me. People as ignorant as yourself really should have to take a test before you vote or buy things anyway. You’re a moron.

  • http://fairfieldbayphotography.com/ Jeff Beer

    What smear job! Starbucks has never held a position against “traditional marriage”. They support freedom of choice, which does not take anything away from anyone. I don’t even like Starbucks coffee, but I support them fully in this. You should be ashamed by the way you skew other people’s words and attitudes to match your own restrictive and controlling agenda.

    • holoh

      How is providing what was almost exclusively direct quotes, none of which were taken out of context, “skewing”?

      Also, having a position promoting non-Biblical marriage is the same as having a position promoting no-noodle lasagna, invisible television, untinted sunglasses, or anything else that just doesn’t make sense. Promoting something that is illogical as “correct” does in fact take away from what is correct and does makes logical sense.

      • http://fairfieldbayphotography.com/ Jeff Beer

        1st, how is it skewing. Let’s look at the title of this article: “Starbucks CEO to Shareholder: If You Support Biblical Marriage, Sell Your Shares”

        The CEO never said that. That’s skewing. The “sell your shares” part was in direct reference to the shareholder saying that performance was down following the boycott. The CEO showed excellent performance numbers, and said if he wasn’t happy with 38%, he could sell his shares and buy elsewhere. That seems pretty straightforward to me.

        2nd, your statement is true only when you assume that everyone believes in your view of the universe. It is not “illogical” to take advantage of
        tax rules, insurance benefits and inheritance rules that go along with
        being legally married. What I’m getting from your comment is that the only valid marriage is a marriage under a christian god. That is simply absurd. Would you outlaw marriages between Buddhists? Atheists can’t get married? What about the Jewish people? Is it necessary to believe in Christ to get married legally, in your view?

        Correct? I don’t know why you feel that you are qualified to determine what is “correct” for everyone.

        • Jordan

          what is written in the holy bible was written for a purpose, homosexuality is a sin…. period

          • http://fairfieldbayphotography.com/ Jeff Beer

            And you are free to believe that. However, you have no right to force your beliefs on others.

          • Steve Rutkowski

            Tell that to gay couples who are forcing small businesses to recognize their ‘marriage’.

          • Matt

            Name one instance where gay couples are forcing business to recognize their marriage? Although, if they are legally married in a state with marriage is legal between any two consenting adults, then that business is required to recognize their marriage. After all, that’s the law. And business, by the very nature of what they agree too when they get their license, says they can not discriminate for any reason. But I’m curious to here about this so called “business” that was forced to recognize a gay marriage that was not legal in their state.

          • Olivia Eason

            http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/sep/2/christian-bakers-who-refused-cake-order-gay-weddin/
            These people were forced out of business for their beliefs. I’m in *political only* support of gay marriage, but it’s simply not true that Christians and Christian owned businesses aren’t being discriminated against and harassed because of their beliefs.

          • Osowoofy

            And that state has a law that states businesses cannot discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation (btw, which means both gay and straight, in case you didn’t realize that). Otherwise, you can be as bigoted as you want as long as you’re in a state that doesn’t protect it’s gay citizens, Toots!

          • Chuck

            We’re not talking about “sexual orientation”. We’re talking about the sanctification of marriage, twinkle toes.

          • Osowoofy

            Not really, the bakers are working in the public sphere and are discriminating against a couple based on their sexual orientation, Toots. That’s shouldn’t be so hard to understand, but obviously it is for you. (and btw, “marriage” refers to LEGAL marriage, not your hyped-up sanctified BS).

          • Wayne McIntosh

            You must be gay yourself!

          • Deanna

            Hey, good one! Like it’s an insult. Idiot.

          • Wayne McIntosh

            If it walks like a duck and quacks like it duck then it is a duck! You’re the idiot! I obviously hit a nerve or you wouldn’t have responded!

          • homemadepasta

            Anti-gays routinely shriek out vicious personal attacks when we debunk their lies. What anti-gays can’t accept is their shrieking, “You must be GAY!” just makes normal, non-homophobic Americans laugh at anti-gays.

          • Deanna

            The sanctification of marriage? That’s only a portion of marriages in the world. Marriage has had many different definitions, and that is the right of the people. It’s not an exclusive Christian club who are lucky enough to get married. We don’t all have to believe the same thing, but we do all have to have equal rights.

          • homemadepasta

            Marriage is a legal contract, nothing sanctified about anti-gays divorcing more often than any other Americans, Chuck.

          • scourge99

            You need to look up the definition of “public accommodation”.

            If you run a “public accommodation” you cannot discriminate against protected classes. Or do you think a public accommodation should be allowed to discriminate against black people if it’s their honestly held belief?

          • Wayne McIntosh

            This has nothing to do with race, this is all about NOT supporting perversion!

          • isabellaE

            I think bigotry and this kind of mindless Christian rhetoric is a perversion. It’s definitely an opinion and set of beliefs rather than a generic predisposition and even so I can’t discriminate against Christians in my business. But my goodness you’re all a bunch of amoral bigoted nasty little a-holes who talk a lot of nastiness about other humans I wish your perverse nastiness would just disappear and your hideous lifestyle too. Garbage, the lot of it. Disgusting. I’d like to block the businesses that protect your interests, push Christians into hiding and it’s folks like you that make calling another person a “Christian” an insult. Because you, child, are a disgusting human.

          • homemadepasta

            Wayne keeps trying to change the subject. But all he posted was another standard anti-gay lie that has long since been debunked. Science has proven sexual orientation is inborn and unchangeable. Several US federal and several US State High Courts have examined that evidence and ruled that discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is similarly unconstitutional as discrimination based on race because BOTH are IMMUTABLE characteristics.

          • scourge99

            Apparently you refuse to look up what a “public accommodation” is and what the laws are regarding them. Because of that you will continue to remain ignorant and uninformed about the legality of discrimination whether it be against homosexuals, Christians, or blacks.

          • Deanna

            It’s the same thing as if a Christian business owner were trying to discriminate against a biracial couple working for them. It’s the responsibility of the employer to be all inclusive and keep their personal PREJUDICES out of their business. We are all equal, including the right to marry who we love. Christians are not being harassed because they believe in God, but because there are viewing the LGBT community as less-than. Not worthy. And advocates, allies, and the LGBT community will keep fighting for equal rights until it is so.

          • Wayne McIntosh

            Will come a day when God will show you just how equal you are! You are a minority and you will lose!

          • homemadepasta

            It’s sad when anti-gays try to drag God down to their level, and will even LIE ABOUT THE BIBLE. Sorry, Wayne MacIntosh, we know what the Bible says about Sodom:

            Ezekiel 16:49

            King James Bible

            “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.”

            Anti-gays always lie.

          • http://batman-news.com Anna

            If you are going to quote Scripture, and if you do not lie, include this passage:
            Romans chapter 1:
            19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse; 21 for though they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools;
            For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

            And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind and to things that should not be done. 29 They were filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, they are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters,[f] insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, rebellious toward parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 They know God’s decree, that those who practice such things deserve to die—yet they not only do them but even applaud others who practice them.

          • Ben Tousey

            Ahh, Sodom and Gomorrah. If you want to bring a Christian to orgasm, just tell them the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.

            In this infamous story, a “god of love,” a “compassionate god,” decides to commit genocide, presumably because “The stench of their sins” had reached him all the way into heaven. Which must have been some stench, since it would take tens of thousands of years traveling at the speed of light just to get out of our galaxy let alone all the way to heaven.

            What’s most troubling though is that Lot is apparently considered a righteous man — even though he was willing to give up his two daughters (eleven or twelve) to be raped by a mob of angry men to protect two grown men. What kind of father would throw his own daughters to a mob as bait, specifically emphasizing their virginity?

            But let’s look at the word “know” as it’s used in the bible. In some instances it has a sexual connection as in, “And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain…” However, only in the King James version of the Bible is the word know used in this context.

            The Hebrew verb “to know” occurs 943 times in the Jewish bible. Of those 943 occurrences, only ten refer to “carnal knowledge” such as Genesis 4:1. Genesis 19:5 would be the only place in the entire Bible where the word “know” would refer to homosexual relations.

            So, out of the 943 occurrences, 933 of those times the verb “know” means “know.” Nine out of the 943 times, “know” means carnal knowledge between a man and a woman. One time out of the 943 times, “know” means gay carnal knowledge.

            Within that context, Lot (who was not himself a citizen of Sodom but still a sojourner) invited two people to his home, and at night, though he did not have the authority to do so. So the men of the city showed up and demanded that Lot bring out the men he was hiding so that they might “know them.” In other words, they wanted to interrogate the strangers and find out their intentions. The outcome could have been tragic for Lot’s guests as they could have been put out of the city, or worse, killed.

            This might also make more sense out of Lot’s counteroffer to the mob in offering his virgin daughters to appease them.

            It certainly makes sense that if the men were straight, they would be more tempted to take Lot up on his offer. If the men had come to rape two men, why would Lot consider that they might be tempted by his two daughters instead?

            The result of this translation would lead to the conclusion that the cities of the plane, Sodom and Gomorrah, were destroyed for the sin of inhospitality: “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.”
            (Ezekiel 16:49)

            Jesus himself seems to have believed this to be the case when he gave this command to his disciples: “Whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when you depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of our feet. Verily I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.”
            (Matthew 10:14-15, Luke 10:10-12)

            Otherwise, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is a story of genocide, a righteous father giving his daughts to be raped, a righteous father having incest wiht those same two daughters…

            This story strikes me not as a story about god’s hatred of gay people, but of just how fucked up god’s people are.

          • http://batman-news.com Anna

            ben (lower case b), I suspect you exonerate yourself for all your hate speech and disrespect and intolerance, but the fact is you’re a hypocrite. The simple fact evident regardless of how many words you use or Scripture you abuse or how much you preach against Christianity is that you are intolerant of believers, while boasting about how tolerant you are.

          • Ben Tousey

            aNNa (lower-case a, upper-case N)… I have not exonerated myself as I have nothing to exonerate myself from. It is not hateful to tell the truth. Hate-speech is the term that intellectually dishonest people use to shut down a debate that they know they can’t win. The fact that you never took issue with my facts, and that you never brought facts to the party yourself, shows that all you have is the actions of a treed animal, you scream and hiss: HATE SPEECH, INTOLERANCE… yet complete ignorant of the irony. Nobody is more intolerant than you. Nobody hates better than you.
            Let’s remember, it was the “Christians” of the day who crucified Jesus because he dared to call them out on their hypocrisy. I suspect that in the long-run, I have more in common with Jesus than you do.

          • Joe G

            We will be the majority (Those of love and compassion). People that spread hate in the name of God like you will no longer exist.

          • homemadepasta

            The Washington Times, Olivia Eason? Thanks for admitting you lied. That’s the Moonies’ paper. Yes, the Moonies are anti-gay.

            Last year, the United States Supreme Court refused to hear the appeal of a New Mexico anti-gay photographer who was convicted of a similar crime. That’s after the US Supreme Court has examined many such anti-discrimination laws and found them fully Constitutional.

            But a group of anti-gay lawyers from the so-called “Alliance Defending Freedom Of Faith” just can’t accept this settled law, and are on a fool’s errand trying to get these laws declared unconstitutional. These anti-gays are going around the country looking for anti-gay bakers, photographers, florists, and other wedding industry suppliers to violate these laws, promising to defend them for free and pay any fines involved. Research this and any other of these cases, and you will see these “Alliance” lawyers are involved in ALL these cases.

            This “Alliance” is also involved in agitating in former Soviet Bloc countries for draconian laws attacking their LGBT citizens similar to what Russia has passed. It has a hefty budget for Europe, spending more than $750,000 on its European programs last year.

            As bad as it is for hapless anti-gays to be posting the nonsense rhetoric of the shameful lawyers here, the lawyers themselves are inciting these crimes, and should be investigated, and disbarred in some cases.

          • Steven Resnick

            Discrimination based on your religious beliefs is morally reprehensible and clearly a violation of the book they’re supposedly leading their life from.

            Funny how when Jesus was on the Earth he went to the lowest of the low when it came to people who helped including prostitute, there’s also that verse about “whoever casts the first stone”

            No Christian is in the power to judge anyone regardless of what sin they believe said person is committing. So, Olivia you are incorrect in you assumption and the business definitely belongs shut down if they aren’t going to serve anyone and everyone.

          • Thomas Patt

            You answered your own question.

          • Wayne McIntosh

            Get out of the basement and look around..it’s happening all over the nation!

          • homemadepasta

            You mean how all over the nation, Americans are rejecting and condemning your anti-gay agenda, and support their family members, friends, neighbors and coworkers who are LGBT, Wayne MacIntosh? Does this mean you realize your anti-gay agenda has already been defeated?

          • Danielle Wonsewitz

            A bakery run by Christians will bake cakes for Bar Mitzvahs, will they not? Even though that is against their beliefs. A Christian florist will provide flowers to a Buddhist wedding. Gay marriage is no different. Christ came to save sinners, not the righteous. He should be your example. The unsaved are the harvest. Your job on this earth is to serve and love the unsaved. A Jew doesn’t force everyone to live Kosher. Christians shouldn’t force everyone to live like Christ, either.

          • http://doverbeach.blogspot.com/ The Dover Beachcomber

            Yes, Christ did come to save sinners. But he *didn’t* come to leave them in their sins. The current push for Christian approval of gay sex is really a push to confirm gays in their sins, and to work a fundamental change in Christian ethics about sexuality, equating the perfection of God’s design with a perverted and barren distortion. One doesn’t “love and serve” a person by pretending their conduct doesn’t matter to God.

          • Deanna

            God made every gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender person on the planet that ever was, is, or will be. Sexuality is genetic and on a spectrum. It isn’t determined by outside influences just like YOUR sexuality isn’t influenced by outside sources. Have you had any same-sex urges you’ve had to just ignore and try not to act on? No because that’s not the way you were made. Loving someone of the same sex isn’t a sin. God is love. God doesn’t make mistakes. Millions of LGBT people know and love God. Oh and you want to bring up barren? Like there aren’t barren straight women who God made that way or distortion? Every person has a distortion one way or another- mental, physical… And we embrace most of them. The real distortion is your (and most Christians) interpretation of the Bible. God isn’t running an exclusive club of perfect people who receive exclusive human rights. He said, “Come just as you are.” The current push for approval of gay sex is a push for Christians to get back to being more inclusive because that’s “what Jesus would do.”

          • http://doverbeach.blogspot.com/ The Dover Beachcomber

            Ah, where to begin, with such a mishmash of misinformation, bad logic, and sheer disregard for the clear message of Scripture? (1) You write “God made every gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender person on the planet” followed with “God doesn’t make mistakes.” Apparently, you expect this to be received as proof that gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender urges are good because God must have made them. But God also made every person who has been born blind, deaf, and deformed. By your logic, we’d have to say that congenital burdens are also the work of God, and therefore we should never try to use medical knowledge to give sight to the blind, hearing to the deaf, or new limbs to the deformed — if they were “born that way.” After all, God made them that way, so they’re perfect just the way they are, right? (2) You write “Millions of LGBT people know and love God.” That’s probably true, but currently only a few of them seem to “love” God enough to obey Him in their sexual lives, and resist the disordered desires that they find in themselves — which aren’t gifts from God, but the result of our fallen nature. (3) Your introduction of the subject of infertility (“barren”) just helps prove my first point. Most people see infertility correctly as a malfunction in the body — and a burden, not a gift that God has bestowed, and which they should hold a parade to celebrate. Millions of men and women are so upset with the “perfect” way God has made them that they spend vast sums on IVF and other methods to overcome their God-given trait. Are they doing wrong? (4) You assert that “every person has a distortion” — which is true, if you mean a set of deep-seated inclinations to sin — but then you make the preposterous assertion that “we embrace most of them.” Not if we’re Christians, we don’t. We fight those inclinations for the love of God, who kindly made it very clear what constitutes good and evil. Of course, everyone’s free to ignore Him if they choose. (5) You’re right that God isn’t “running an exclusive club of perfect people.” We’re all sinners. But it’s no part of the Christian tradition to say to ourselves that it’s therefore OK for us to keep on sinning. (6) Where exactly did God say “Come just as you are?” And where did he tell us to STAY just as we are, with all our cruelty, malice, deceit, laziness — and sexual perversions? Read the Gospels carefully, and you’ll find plenty of examples in which Jesus warned us of the terrible price of not confronting our sins. Yes, there’s always forgiveness; but not without repentance first.

          • Joe G

            Not every homosexual is christian. Does that mean that they cannot obtain the same legal benefits of being married? In many cases because homosexuals cannot be married there are problems with insurance or inheritance. This is more than just a religious argument.

          • holoh

            Marriage is not a legal thing, it is a Christian religious thing only. You can call non-Christian monogamous relationships “marriage” all you want to, but God trumps what you say. By your rationale, I can call your wife “my bitch” and you have to accept that label of her because that is my belief, right? Let me know if you are ok with this or if you want to recant your position. Either one is a good way to start on your path towards no longer being a hypocrite. Please respond.

          • Joe G

            Yes Marriage is a legal “thing” when it comes to inheritance, taxes and insurance. Marriage has been around far longer than Christianity.

          • holoh

            Um, marriage has been around since the first two humans were married.

          • Joe G

            According to the Christian belief.

          • holoh

            Which is just as valid as any other belief, so why point that out?

          • FaithSaves

            According to every monotheistic religion in the world. And according to the NT Scriptures marriage is between one man and one woman as a reflection of Christ and his Church. Which is exactly why Christians should fight so hard to defend traditional marriage.

          • Gina

            it’s a fact.

          • Joe G

            Fact implies imperical evidence, your only proof is a book. A book that places human history starting around 6,000 years ago. From science we know that humans have been around for much longer and the practice of “marriage” has been around since the earliest of civilizations.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            Marriage as commanded by God began with the first Man and Woman, long before any civilization. See the opening chapters of Genesis, as upheld by Jesus in the New Testament.

            In fact, we *don’t* know that humans have been around far longer than that–that is an evolutionary *belief*; human evolution , age of rocks and bones, are based on fallible human assumptions that we can know their ages based on current decay radioactive rates and other natural clocks. We cannot, at least not without running from the Bible’s eyewitness testimony that God created the heavens and the Earth in six 24-hour days, and the genealogies in the book of Genesis and the Gospels that point to an age for Earth of thousands of years, not billion or even millions, and a violent worldwide Flood that would have radically changed the topography and systems of the Earth, and can explain both the fossils and geology we see today all around the world.

            Other observable clocks, such as the Moon’s rate of receding from Earth, or carbon-14 present in diamonds, and many more, point to a much younger age for Earth than is required by evolutionary belief. The movements of tectonic plates we see today may be the still-slowing remnants of the cataclysmic forces unleashed during and after Noah’s Flood about 4300 years ago. See Whitcomb and Morris, The Genesis Flood, or Walt Brown, In the Beginning.

          • Gina

            GOD CREATED MARRIAGE!! yes it’s been around a long time but GOD created it in the garden of Eden! it was designed to be between one man and one woman.

          • Kelly Holmes Marconi

            God created homosexuals too. And The Bible advises us not to judge lest we be judged. Sounds like you need to actually READ what the Bible says instead of judging everyone. Jesus didn’t act like you thank goodness, so what gives you the right to judge others?

          • Kelly Holmes Marconi

            If you think marriage is not a legal thing then you are ignorant. It’s a very legal thing including financial and tax implications for marriage participants.

          • Gina

            another lie, they can have a civil union and get those benefits. stop falling for the propaganda.

          • Joe G

            Not every state has the option of same sex civil unions. The states that do not have them will not recognize same sex civil union or marriage from another state. How is that propaganda? That is fact.

          • Kelly Holmes Marconi

            Civil unions do not provide the same benefits.

          • Gregg Powers

            yes he made everyone but the choice to engage in homosexuality is man’s choice…never forget that, unless you claim that man has no control over his actions in which case i assume that you believe murderers, etc were also created that way

          • Droppo

            Murder is a choice that obviously hurts other people without their consent. Gay marriage doesn’t happen to people against their will and doesn’t hurt anyone except Christians who get their feelings hurt that other people don’t agree with them. Proof that you have no good argument.

          • Gregg Powers

            Okay so at least you agree that’s a choice. it might seem to you that it hurts no one, but it could have more far reaching consequences that you imagine. However, this is not my world but God’s. Your argument is with Him

          • http://192.168.0.1/ Kyle Stephens

            it hurts me inside when I have to walk through a freakin’ gay parade in order to get through traffic when on vacation!

            I find this ironic what you say as Rush Limbaugh could just as viably be argued as having a [LEGITIMATE] opinion as yours on gay marriage, doesn’t he deserve the right to believe and say it? The FCC doesn’t think so, and guess what? Liberals support censorship! If they can’t censor it, they sue it for blasphemy even when it’s true.

            double standards are incredibly apalling with these libt*rds.

          • holoh

            Ummmm, God also made Satan. Your argument is completely irrelevant. By your logic – if I murder your whole family, you have to be completely ok with it because God made me that way and he doesn’t make mistakes? I’ve seriously had it with people like you making arguments that you know are not tenable. Please let me know if you would like me to murder your whole family or if you want to recant your statement. Not doing either equals continuing to be a hypocrite.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            God did not make Satan. Everything that God made was “very good” in the beginning, including Lucifer, the highest angel, “until evil was found in him.” Just as he later tempted Eve, he to wanted to be like God, instead of giving God glory and worship as he was created to do. God gave both Lucifer, and Adam and Eve, choices. Satan chose wrong, even though he knew God face to face, and God made his choice and punishment permanent. Adam and Eve’s choice was devastating for them and for all of us, but God chose to redeem all who will admit their sin and helplessness, repent and trust His plan of redemption through the death of His righteous Son, Jesus.

          • Gregg Powers

            This is just wrong. Period.

          • FaithSaves

            What would Jesus do? He would call out sin for what it is (woman at the well) He would not justify sin as when he said marriage is between a man and woman. The Bible clearly states that a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife. Jesus clearly stated marriage was between a man and a woman.
            Homosexuality was clearly listed as an abomination. And the Bible clearly teaches that with every temptation God will make a way of escape. Jesus clearly loved the sinner but never justified their sin. Can you show me in the Bible where anyone is born homosexual and therefore it is not a sin? Show me is the Scriptures where “Christians” are distorting the Bible on this issue.

          • Kelly Holmes Marconi

            Divorce is an abomination too. So is eating shellfish. So is a female speaking inside the church. Maybe you need to take your judgmental crusades to Red Lobster and to your Sanctuary Sunday morning.

          • Stuart Johnston

            There is not an ounce of scientific/biological truth in what you are saying here. You speak of DNA. Yet, no discernible traces or causation for homosexuality has been discovered or proved. Your argument is emotional and completely lacks validity. In short, you are not qualified to speak like this: “Sexuality is genetic and on a spectrum.” What? How utterly stupid of you to echo the words of another who has absolutely no clue about homosexuality. Plus, you speak for millions of LGBT people….Why? What makes you the expert? Jesus, by the way, would have likely said this: “Go, and sin no more.” Stop trying to rewrite a moral map that was drawn-up eons ago. How arrogant and selfish, as if you are the only individual here who has the mental capacity to understand clear and concise guidance. Stop bullying so-called Christians.

          • whamprod

            Slight inaccuracy here…. and I take no position on the legality of gay marriage as I don’t think the state has any business administrating marriage at all…. but my education was in the biomedical sciences (Texas A&M), and I’ve actually taken genetics courses. To date, all long-term attempts to prove a genetic determination of sexuality have been either inconclusive, or disproving. So you cannot say with any authority that sexuality is genetically determined. You just can’t. There are theories, but none have been proven as fact yet. So you have to make your arguments on an ethical basis, because at this point, the science just isn’t there. I’m not saying you cannot make this justification. I’m just saying that you cannot make it based on science.

          • TSquared

            Yes God created the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender person, however He did not create the sexuality that they live by. It would be against His will and God cannot lie. Their sexuality also has nothing to do with their genetics. What actual proof do you have showing there’s a gene for being homosexual? There is none. It’s an attack on one’s thinking by the enemy (the devil) and at times a generational curse, but it is NOT of God. When He created man (Adam and Eve), He told them to be fruitful and multiple and replenish the earth. As previously stated, two individuals of the same sex cannot reproduce, therefore goes against the Will of God which in turns means that homosexuality is NOT of God because He cannot lie! The push for Christians to jump on the bandwagon of “approving homosexual marriages” would not be an inclusive move that “Jesus would do”, yes He would love them but He would encourage them to turn away from their sin. Also, as previously stated, there’s a penalty for sin, which is death. And yes we all die but the death that is referred to biblically is not being united with Christ in heaven spiritually after the physical body dies. Now these words that we share will be null and void if you don’t believe there is a God. And if you don’t believe, I would encourage you to try God for yourself. Read the word of God, talk to Him yourself and experience Him yourself. No one can take away your personal experience with Christ. You have nothing to lose by trying God!

          • Gina

            that is a lie to try and get us to conform, it wont happen if we truly believe what God has said on this matter. God created everyone but he didn’t force them to commit sexual sin no more than he forces someone to kill or steal.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            God doesn’t do wrong or cause people to sin, but He is absolutely clear that homosexuality is SIN. Not just a difference. Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep my commandments.” Letting oneself do what one feels isn’t loving, when God has commanded us not to give into that feeling. When we’re tempted to sin, we need to flee from it every time, not say, “I was born this way” or “It’s my civil right.” Read Leviticus chapter 18 and Romans chapter 1 to see what God says about homosexuality and other sexual sin. If we insist on having our own way, God may allow it, but there will be negative consequences in this life, and in eternity.

          • Deborah Salmon

            I just wonder about something! Starbucks is set up as a company that sells tea coffee and food but now it seems it is also there to sell a political ideal! What ever that cause is Isn’t that overstepping the bounds of its business! Does it mean now that when I go to Starbucks and drink a egg nog that i will also get a dressing down on what political group I am supposed to adhere to or what ever the cause is for that season! Put anyway surely star bucks making a political a statement on same sex marriage should mean that tee shirt printers that don’t support gay pride have the right to make a political statement on traditional marriage (as it still is according to most scholars) the best union for flourishing and development and the best outcomes for children, emotionally and educationally! But apparently Howard Schultz should know all this being a CEO and educated and all !

          • YouHaveCatTobeKittenMeRightMeo

            There is no gay gene.

          • pignut

            No that’s not what Jesus would do. He and the bible direct sinners to repent and follow him. Not to continue in sin.

          • Danielle Wonsewitz

            I look at homosexuality like I look at divorce. You think it’s okay to allow people the freedom to get divorced even though Christ preached often and VERY strongly against divorce (while never mentioning homosexuality once). Because at the end of the day all we’re talking about is freedom, not whether or not you think being gay is wrong. It’s not a sin for two men to get married is it? The only homosexuality the Bible mentions is a man lying with another man. The church exploited the government by handing over the rights to marry so people could receive tax breaks. And now they still expect to control who can and can’t get married? They already gave up that right. But even on the morality of it. If your friend gets divorced do you hound them about how sinful it is? No because it’s not your job as Christ’s representation. You especially wouldn’t scoff at or judge a stranger who is divorced. And even though the Bible says that sleeping with someone else, even if you’re remarried by the world’s standards, is committing constant adultery. You don’t tell a remarried person it’s wrong. Because they know what the Buble says and you let them live with it.

          • Gina

            It is technically true that Jesus did not specifically address homosexuality in the Gospel accounts; however, He did speak clearly about sexuality in general. Concerning marriage, Jesus stated, “At the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh[.]’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate” (Matthew 19). Here Jesus clearly referred to Adam and Eve and affirmed God’s intended design for marriage and sexuality.Jesus affirmed that people are either to be single and celibate or married and faithful to one spouse of the opposite gender. Jesus considered any other expression of sexuality sinful. This would include same-sex activity.Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful,………..1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, ( it’s pretty clear that it’s a sin)

          • homemadepasta

            Shame on you for trying to drag Jesus down to the level of anti-gays. We all know Jesus NEVER attacked loving, committed same gender couples EVER.

          • http://doverbeach.blogspot.com/ The Dover Beachcomber

            There are plenty of evil things Jesus never attacked. That’s doesn’t make them virtues. Shame on you for co-opting Jesus to sanctify your sexual preferences.

          • Gina

            Jesus also didn’t “attack” the woman caught in adultery but he did tell her to go AND SIN NO MORE.

          • Ben Tousey

            First of all, I am NOT a sinner. That’s your schtick. I am evolving. From an evolutionary process, I’ve done quite well. I can rise above many of the forces of nature, respond to virus and illness, think logically, come together to help others, rise above instinct… even make plans for my future. So far, I’m the only creature on earth that does that.
            No matter what I do, I will always be “perfectly human.” Whether I sink to the depths of depravity, or rise to the heights of compassion, I will always be, “perfectly human.”
            Sin is a made up construct, made up as a way to force others into behaviors that would be otherwise unnatural, and especially un-human. One doesn’t “love and serve” a person until they can love and serve that person AS THEY ARE, not with your ideology slathered all over it.

          • http://doverbeach.blogspot.com/ The Dover Beachcomber

            Sin is a made-up construct, huh? You’re “perfectly human” no matter how cruel, no matter how depraved, no matter how evil? Well, I suppose I have to agree that you’d always remain a member of Homo Sapiens, no matter how you behaved. But so what? What kind of revelation is this supposed to represent? And one doesn’t “love and serve” anyone by lying to them about their behavior.

          • Ben Tousey

            Define sin. Show me anywhere in nature where “sin” is defined.

            As primates ourselves, all we need to do is look at our biological/genetic cousins, and we can see just that. When we look at chimps, our closest cousins, we can see that they can be altruistic, and atrocious at the turn of a hat. Yet they remain chimps.

            Sin, especially your version of morality has nothing to do with love.

            For example: if I am a father, and my teenage daughter is raped, as a Christian, I am morally obligated to tell her that this was God’s will, and that she must accept this. I must then
            proscribe a certain set of behaviors that she must follow and obey regardless of how she feels.

            As someone not bound to morality, I don’t have to take that route. Instead, I can comfort her, share her anger, her fear, her frustration, her confusion, and be a safe place for her to grieve and heal. If she finds herself pregnant, I can support her choice in how she handles that pregnancy. Together, the two of us can work out the best way to handle our emotions that support us as human beings, regardless of what the
            moralists tell us we need to do.

            If someone I love, let’s say my son, announces that he is gay, as a Christian, I am morally obligated to inform him that he must reject this legitimate part of himself, or else suffer the
            wrath of a God who loves him so much he murdered his own son to prove it. I must ostracize him, and, even if I love him, I must oppose his right to be safe, to be happy, and to be free. I must harass and harangue him, and finally, turn my back on him.

            As a parent, I can take the human approach: I can love him, embrace him, support him, and learn about his life and what being a gay man involves in a world so opposed to him. I can teach him how to love the best I know how, and teach him that love, and loving, are things we must do not only to make ourselves feel better, but also to bring humanity together. I can support his search for happiness, his right to be happy, and experience joy. I can also do my best to keep him safe from a legal perspective.

            As a Christian, when I stare out into the universe, I must deny the wonder and glory of the universe because I’m not allowed to entertain the possibilities of a universe free to build upon
            itself and to create. I am not allowed to see a creative universe, but, instead, a passive universe simply doing what it’s told. I must surrender wonder and awe for dogma. If observation and awareness challenge my dogma, I must deny that observation and make up my own “truth,” (can you say…
            “Conservapedia”?) and then do all that I can to squelch further
            inquisition.

            As a human, I am free to bask in the wonders of an amazingly creative universe. I can embrace the majesty, the wonder, and… dare-I-say… the mystery. When observation challenges belief (dogma), I am free to leave that belief behind in favor of the new discovery.

            As a Christian I must never learn what might challenge my belief, so I must approach all education cautiously and with terror. As a human, I am free to choose to learn, regardless of topic. I am free to embrace learning, and to challenge myself to grow mentally.

            As a Christian, in any situation, I must always choose morality.

            However, as human, I am free to choose compassion, humanity, kindness, and understanding over morality. I am,
            therefore, more free. Free to be human, free to love unconditionally, and free to accept and embrace all humanity, even those aspects of humanity that I’m uncomfortable with. I am free to choose the direction my life goes, and free to love others, and let them choose the direction their life goes, even if I’m uncomfortable with it. I am free to do everything in my power to make life on this planet… in this place… in this moment… better.

            Life is hard and comes with only one guarantee. But without morality, I am free to embrace it… or not…

            This love that you speak of, does not exist in your morality, but is, instead, overcome by the morality itself.

          • Joe G

            I agree with you, but not all Christians are backwards and ignorant. There are many who can still be good Christians and good humans. (Those that do not follow blindly)

          • Gina

            you will either serve God or serve the world, you can’t have it both ways, if you are luke warm he will spew you out of his mouth.

          • Joe G

            What about christian volunteer workers that help hurricane survivors? They are serving God and the world.

          • http://batman-news.com Anna

            What makes you think a Christian is morally obligated to tell his daugher that her rape was God’s will? Absolutely untrue, and I suspect you know that. Be intellectually honest or don’t waste my time.

          • Ben Tousey

            Who’s being intellectually dishonest? Are you not paying attention? Forced ultrasounds, anti-gay laws, Republicans (another word for Christian) everywhere denying science, tearing pages out of biology books, Megyn Kelly, Michelle Bachmann, Pat Robertson, Chuck Hagie, Mark Driscoll… These are all Christians are they not?
            There is none so blind as he who will not see.
            And by the way nobody wasted your time but you. Nobody compelled you to respond to this comment but you. You wasted your own time. Take responsibility for yourself or you’re worthless as a human being.

          • http://192.168.0.1/ Kyle Stephens

            who’s said Republicans deny science? There’s a difference between being Christian and being Anti-Science. You’re too focused in the 1700 Enlightenment Era…but I’d expect nothing less from such a neanderthal, especially the ones who want us to live in caves, so we don’t “disrupt nature.”

          • Ben Tousey

            Well, at least you know what a Neanderthal is. I love how Christians use the name Christ, and yet only know how to insult and call people names. Isn’t Jesus special, he disagrees with someone and insults them.
            But to answer your question, YOU say you deny science. That’s the basic Christian/Republican stance. You’re the ones out there denying climate change, you’re the ones out there denying evolution, you’re the ones out there trying to rewrite biology books, you’re the ones out there confusing sexuality with your brand of “morality.” It’s all you.
            I also find it fascinating that those who believe that they are “god’s” children, who believe that god created the earth just for them, feel no guilt about completely destroying that very planet. The truth is, emotionally, you DO live in caves.
            All those years ago god told Adam and Eve NOT to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, and Christians have been avoiding knowledge ever since.

          • http://192.168.0.1/ Kyle Stephens

            Since when? I know many Conservative Scientists, Conservative Programmers, and Conservative Microbiologists…all of whom are Christian…I could say that all democrats are gay hippies, doesn’t make it true….. or DOES IT? See? I can play the game too.

            Your attacks don’t work on me, as I believe in a middle road between science and religion. Buster, you’ve met your worst foe. You’d best not screw with me.

          • Ben Tousey

            No you don’t. I know bullshit when I see it. There aren’t many conservative scientists or microbiologists. And what you’re saying is “anecdotal” which is known as a logical fallacy, Science is about facts, figures, data, I can see that you’re pretty much run by emotion.
            BUSTER!

          • http://192.168.0.1/ Kyle Stephens

            yes it is anecdotal. That’s my point. so is YOUR point anecdotal.

            by the way I’ve seen your fb profile photo, the reason you’re a homo is because you’re a midget who can’t get women.

            Just shut up now.

          • Ben Tousey

            Do you eat Jesus’ body with that mouth?

          • Joe G

            Way to walk the high ground. Here you are talking about the middle road and making good points then you have to go and call Ben a gay midget? Really?! You sir are a horrible human being

          • http://192.168.0.1/ Kyle Stephens

            giving credit where credit is due. I don’t attack UNLESS I personally AM attacked. He attacked me, it was retaliatory self-defense. I am kind, but only so as long as people are kind to me, in the first place.

          • Kenneth Power

            maybe he should have announced to share holding Christians who support traditional marriage not buy their coffee anymore.

          • Ben Tousey

            Maybe. But since there’s no such thing as traditional marriage, it would be tantamount to telling house elves not to buy their coffee either.

          • Gina

            I have only seen name calling coming from you Ben!! LOL

          • Ben Tousey

            Try reading Gina. You see, these letters, they combine to make words. Words combine to make sentences. Sentences combine to make paragraphs. Paragraphs combine to make a post… a response… an answer… a comment… The reason you’re only seeing name calling is that’s all you want to see. Everything else gets blurred by your desire to remain ignorant.

          • Guest

            awww, someone pushed bens buttons,lol

          • Ben Tousey

            OOOHHHHH! She LOL’d… Oh, I can’t stop laughing… Such sharp repartee, such witty banter. Remind me to slap my knee.

          • Joe G

            Did you see the homo midget comment? Kind of hard to miss

          • Gina

            once again resorts to childish name calling when confronted…..typical.

          • Ben Tousey

            You’re welcome to try and add something to the conversation… if you have anything to add… which I’m guessing you don’t since all you’ve got is name-calling.

          • Steven Resnick

            Untrue it’s perfectly true. Funny thing how there’s a quote from Hebrews saying that “God will never leave your nor forsake you” yet when a woman is raped where is God? Oh right it’s part of his plan. That’s every Christian’s excuse when something bad happens.

            It’s God’s will. God will never give you anything that you aren’t strong enough to overcome and blah blah blah blah

          • David R

            “If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then
            the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman
            fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has
            violated her. He may not divorce her all his days.”

            “If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the bride-price for virgins. ”

            Get raped and you’re a women it’s up yo your rapist and dad if you have to marry the rapist, and if the dad agrees all the rapist has to pay is the low low price of of fifty shekels. Even if it isn’t God’s will the bible is full of horrid horrid illogical and backwards things.

          • holoh

            He doesn’t think that – he just knows, like the liberal politicians, that he can make moronic arguments and they will still somehow believe him and find purpose in the moronic arguments.

          • holoh

            The 10 commandments are a good place to start, asshat.

            Again, I refer you to my argument above. If you “aren’t bound by morality”, then you have to be ok with me raping and murdering your whole family as long as it is consistent with my beliefs.

            Let me know if you are ok with me murdering your whole family or if you are a hypocrite. Please respond.

          • Ben Tousey

            Actually, ad homenim isn’t an argument, it’s just ignorant people throwing slurs and attack the person not the argument, since, of course, they have argument.
            You don’t even keep the ten commandments. Do you honor the Sabbath? You’re probably pro capital punishment, that’s killing. I would imagine as a Christian/Republican you’re all for taking money from the poor and giving it to the rich, that’s stealing.
            I also find it interesting that you’re so very hung up on murdering people. This suggests that perhaps you don’t value the ten commandments either. Jesus said that if you think it in your heart, you’ve done it… murderer.

          • holoh

            Killing isn’t in the 10 commandments, murder is.

            Also, I’m not a Christian, I’m agnostic.

          • Ben Tousey

            I know bullshit when I see it. You freak out when someone dares to question your “morality,” you defend the ten commandments, you come to a debate only with ad homenim, you threaten murder, you use incendiary language, your fangs are dripping with venomous anger… you’re a Christian… you speak as a Christian.

          • http://192.168.0.1/ Kyle Stephens

            and your ideology isn’t giving your own money, it’s using the people who actually work a d*mn hard day in labor, to pay for everyone else’s check so they can sponge and eat lobster. I don’t see your point… it’s not charity if you’re not giving your own money…it’s only charity if YOU fork over the freakin’ cash…

          • Ben Tousey

            You apparently haven’t read Jesus’ parable of the vineyard owner who went out three times during the day and hired workers, and at the end paid them all the same price. You’re the workers at the beginning of the shift, bitching and moaning that someone might have gotten something more than you… You have a problem with being kind to the poor, take it up with Jesus, cause he’s the one making such a big deal out of it.

          • Gina

            your not serious?? so you think that because we are Christians if our daughter get raped we can’t comfort her or seek justice for her??? where do you get your information about Christians??LOL, it’s laughable the way you think. without morality and the laws ( the 10 commandments) God set forth you have no moral compass. without morality you can do whatever you want, no matter who you hurt. you make no kind of sense!! oh and one more thing, God did not “murder” Jesus, Jesus GAVE his life to save people like you and me from having to pay for our SINS. now I have accepted that wonderful gift, I hope you do before it’s to late.

          • Ben Tousey

            Where do I get my information? From you. These are your rules, this is the way you do business. This is what you preach from your altars.

            As to the ten commandments, you don’t even keep those. Do you work on the Sabbath? I think you do. You certainly worship money, that’s having other gods before you. Do you believe in capital punishment? That’s murder.

            That you can’t be trusted to take care of others without some bronze-age document says only that you cannot be trusted around humanity. If you read my comment, which apparently you didn’t, there’s nothing in there about hurting anyone. In fact, that was the point. You hurt people because your morality tells you you have to. I look for ways to bring compassion and love.

            And god did murder Jesus. I was so bad that no matter what I did, god could never even look at me. According to Paul, god doesn’t even see me, he sees Jesus, that’s how repugnant I am to him. So in order to make it so that he could even look in my direction, he murdered his son. Hey wait, did GOD break one of the commandments? I’m guessing he did.

            I don’t have sins. I’m not a sinner. I’m an evolved human being, working my way up. There is no sin in evolving.

          • Gina

            you are a liar, there is no other way to describe you. nothing like what you have said has ever been preached form any church I have been in. IF you did come from monkeys then honey you have not evolved enough!

          • Ben Tousey

            Chuck Haggie, Mark Driscoll, Benny Hinn, Michelle Bachmann, Megyn Kelley, Franklin Graham, Bill O’Reily… it’s a long list. One of these days you should look into what your religion actually teaches… And I didn’t come from a monkey. I share a common ancestor with the monkeys. And You do too, whether or not you are willing to admit it. And the fact that you don’t shows that you have a huge gap when it comes to your knowledge of the physical world. But that makes sense. You see, back in Eden god told humans not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge… and you’ve been avoiding knowledge ever since.

          • Steven Resnick

            Except that is what every Christian does is lie to themselves.

          • http://192.168.0.1/ Kyle Stephens

            and what every liberal does is lie to to everyone else PLUS themselves. In every liberal there’s a gay pot-addicted monkey waiting to get out and do the strip dance.

          • Johnnie Grantham

            WRONG!!!

          • Steven Resnick

            I’m wrong prove it

          • holoh

            So, by your rationale, I can rape and then murder your mother and you have to be ok with it because “I will always be perfectly human” and “NOT a sinner”?

            Want to recant your idiotic position, want me to murder your mom, or do you want to continue being a hypocrite?

          • Ben Tousey

            You clearly did not read this did you? I don’t value rape, you do. You’ve got all kinds of words for it: “gift from god rape,” “legitimate rape,” “inevitable rape.” Your own bible condones it. Lot offered his two “virgin” daughters to gang raped, and he was a righteous man. He then went on to have incest with both of his daughters, and that made him more righteous.
            Truth be told, the only ones who aren’t human are Republicans/Christians (same thing). But I don’t expect you to understand that since it would require something like compassion, which clearly, by your post, you lack.

          • holoh

            So, you are saying that what you value is legitimate and what I value is no legitimate. You have nailed the liberal ideology, haven’t you?

          • Ben Tousey

            I’m saying that you have no values. You’re shills for Corporate America, you deny science, you vilify the poor, you avoid education like it’s toxic, you’re unable to form an argument, whenever asked to give a logical debate, all you’ve got is ad homenim. You call yourself pro-life and yet defend an instrument whose only purpose is to kill, you are unable to enter into a logical debate without threatening murder… I’m saying you have no values… legitimate or otherwise. Satan would never come for your soul because you have none.

          • holoh

            In a previous post, you said “As someone not bound to morality” referring to yourself. The definition of morality is “beliefs about what is right behavior and what is wrong behavior”. So, you have no beliefs about what is right and wrong.

            Now, you claim that other people have no values? You admitted that you have no values! You have no beliefs about what is right and wrong.

            Your arguments are idiotic. You talk about satan, but don’t believe that values or morality exists. How exactly does that work?

          • Ben Tousey

            I’m wondering if maybe English isn’t your first language.
            I don’t need a bronze-age book to tell me what’s right and wrong. I know what’s right and wrong based on how my actions affect others. I try my best NOT to have beliefs, since beliefs are creations we make up in our head when we can’t find evidence to support them. You BELIEVE in a guy who died for your sins and rose for the dead. I say, show me evidence. You BELIEVE that the earth is only six thousand years old, I have evidence that it is far older. You BELIEVE that Climate Change is a hoax, I have proof otherwise.
            What I said is that YOU have no values. If anything conflicts with your bronze-age ideology, you stick to your bronze-age ideology. I said, that if someone I love was raped, I would NOT tell them it was a gift from god. I would, instead, do my best to be a safe place for them to work out what to do next. I don’t need “morality,” I have compassion, which helps me elevate myself.
            You value a book and a made up god. I value people and their genuine struggles. You value ideology and religion and religious systems. I value people and their genuine struggle to make peace with life. I value life, you value old dead people’s ideas of how life should work.
            In short, I am “pro-life,” you are “pro-morality.” Your morality doesn’t promote life, it destroys it. Just as Lot who offered his two daughters up to be gang raped, and was considered righteous. I would never put two innocent girls in harm’s way… you would. I would never value a father who would put his daughters in harm’s way like that… you do. That’s the difference between you and me. I value life, you do not.
            I realize that that seems moronic to you, but that’s because you’re not able to think above a third-grade level. You can’t explain to a dog why you leave him alone eight hours a day, he would never understand it. The difference is, you at least COULD learn if you wanted to.

          • http://192.168.0.1/ Kyle Stephens

            And obviously Swahili is your first language.

          • Ben Tousey

            And I think imbecilic is yours.

          • holoh

            Haha, that’s nice that you have this black-and-white world in your head, but the real world isn’t like that. You can’t just say morality is based on how other people react. Opposite things can hurt two different people very deeply as well as the same thing can hurt one person and give another great satisfaction. You are deluding yourself thinking you are considering the desires of others. In reality, you are only considering your own desires. As an example, it hurts me very deeply that people murder unborn babies. For others, they are hurt very deeply if a woman doesn’t have a right to choose what goes on with her body. Both are extremely valid concerns of the individuals involved, however, you only see validity in the side that agrees with your view.

            Also, I’ve already told you I’m not a Christian, so your points are stupid. Despite my belief that God does not exist, in order for mankind to have a shared set of values, something other than each individual needs to determine those values. Religion plays that role for society, making it extremely logical. Atheism’s logic consists solely in the fact that it is likely reality, but it doesn’t serve any purpose, unlike Christianity.

          • Ben Tousey

            The only reason that this looks black and white is because you’re color blind. The only reason it’s stupid to you is that it takes more than your third grade education to figure it out. My idea of morality is “simple,” but not easy. Hypocrates probably best sets it up: First, do no harm. Jesus had another version: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That you find it stupid just means that morality must be relegated to you from a bronze-age set of rules, and without those rules, you are incapable of thinking for yourself.

            And I know you want to “pretend” that you’re not a Christian, you’re not fooling me. You threatened me with hell, You derive your morality from a series of bronze-age mythologies, you attack those who disagree with those values, and you call atheism illogical. You’re “logic” is so transparent that anybody could see through it.

            One of those commandments there that you like is “Thou shalt not lie.”

          • holoh

            I already said that I’m not a Christian, but I see the utility in a standardized morality set provided by religion. In the US, the predominant religion in Christianity. If I lived in India, I’d say the same thing about Hinduism. My position is extremely logical, although it relies on the majority of the population to ascribe to the illogical belief in a religion.

            Yes, virtually every civilization and culture has had their version of the golden rule, however, it only works if the majority of people are applying the same morality to their decision making. It obviously doesn’t work if they apply different values. This is the essence of the clash between the West and the East, the former which values freedom, the latter which values respect and unity”

          • Ben Tousey

            If you weren’t a Christian we wouldn’t be having this conversation. There are thousands of moral codes, why did you chose this one? Why not the Qur’an? Why not the Upanishads? Do you read agnostic literature? Do you read any of the most prominent agonists out there? You’re not them. You are a Christian, and there is NOTHING logical about picking one moral code over another. In fact, the very notion that you have to go OUTSIDE to find a way to be moral, suggests that, logically, you can’t even see what morality is, let alone try to live by it.
            The essence of the class between the east and the west is ideological, it has nothing to do with morals. The west doesn’t value freedom any more than the east does, the west only values their ideology. Christians are no more compassionate than Muslims, they just follow a different book.
            What you believe in is a god who told three different cultures three different things, and then told them to duke it out.
            I strongly suggest you go to Wikipedia and look up the word “agnostic” because you are not it. You’re a Christian through and through.

          • holoh

            Do you read? I said “In the US, the predominant religion in Christianity.” I didn’t choose Christianity – it is simply the predominant religion in the US.

          • Ben Tousey

            You also have the freedom to adopt any other moral code you wish… you choose Christianity. That makes you a Christian.

          • holoh

            I also never said I abide by that code.

          • http://192.168.0.1/ Kyle Stephens

            I don’t deny science, I do calculus, I do computer science, I do chemistry and biology. I’m also a Christian who happens to not be Catholic. I don’t give a bloody rat’s petut what you think, but just shut up NOW!

          • Ben Tousey

            Ah, listen to Jesus, “Come unto you and shut the fuck up cause I disagree with you.” How old are you? I’ve had more intelligent conversations with third-graders.
            By the way, Jesus said, “By this shall all men know that you are my disciples… that you have love, one for another.”
            You’re not a Christian. I have more in common with Jesus than you do.

          • http://192.168.0.1/ Kyle Stephens

            since when did they say God had been responsible for rape? I see no mention whatsoever in this comment section. You’re putting words in everyone here’s mouths, without ever a single shred of origin off which to base the wannabe counter-argument.

          • Ben Tousey

            HUH?

          • Phil B.

            Sorry to break this to you, but you’re losing despite all your raging. Marriage equality in thirty states and counting.

          • http://doverbeach.blogspot.com/ The Dover Beachcomber

            I’m so relieved to learn that we can tell if a thing is good or bad by taking a vote. So back when NO state recognized “gay marriage” and the population found the very concept preposterous — say, 50 years ago — “marriage equality” was wrong. Right? ‘Cause whatever a majority agrees to is morally right, even if it changes its mind next month?

          • Ben Tousey

            Gay marriage was right, even back then, just as slavery was wrong, even when god said it was okay. We shouldn’t be voting on science, nor should we be voting on human rights. Those things are a giving, regardless of what the bible says.

          • http://doverbeach.blogspot.com/ The Dover Beachcomber

            “Gay marriage was right…”: prove your statement. “Slavery was wrong even when god said it was OK”: can’t tell which god you’re referring to, but if you’re referring to God as understood by Christians, please explain why the modern movement to abolish slavery, starting with William Wilberforce in the UK, was led almost exclusively by Christians. “We shouldn’t be voting on science…”: what “science” are you referring to? Are you saying that your moral position on calling sodomite relationships “marriage” is the same kind of assertion as that the atomic weight of carbon is 12? “Nor should we be voting on human rights”: but you’re assuming that gay “marriage” is a human right, and you can’t assume the very thing we’re debating. You ask that it be accepted as a “giving” (given?), as an self-evident axiom, but I don’t; I want you to prove it. And remember: while you’re doing your proving, no fair referring to absolute moral principles such as Christians hold.

          • Ben Tousey

            You can’t possibly be serious. It was the Christians that opposed the abolition of slavery. It was Christians that opposed the Civil Rights Movement. It’s Christians right now doing their best to disenfranchise voters of color. It’s Christians who are going after voting rights nation wide. The KKK is Christian. Cliven Bundy’s a Christian who thinks that the blacks actually had it better when they were slaves. Michelle Bachmann, Ted Cruz, Jim Crowe, Strom Thurmond, Pat Buchanan… all Christians

            The science we shouldn’t be voting on is ALL science: Biology, sociology, evolution, climate change, physics, astro physics, medicine… you know, those areas that really smart people study and Christians try to pretend that they don’t exist.

            Gay marriage IS a human right. The UN agrees.

            In your mind, Lot was a righteous man for offering his two daughters to be gang-raped. He was also a righteous man when he had incest with those two daughters, simply because he (allegedly) opposed homosexuality, even though, if you read my post, Sodom and Gomorrah wasn’t about homosexuality at all.
            You speak of biblical marriage, yet ignor the fact that Abraham had two wives, Jacob had two wives, David never met a woman he didn’t marry… and you’ve yet to deal with Jonathan and David’s homosexual relationship.

            You say you want proof, but that’s not at all what you want. What you want is someone who agrees with your ideology. You derive your science from the bible, a book that can’t even agree with itself on anything, let alone something scientific. You can read the book, Unprotected Texts: http://www.amazon.com/Unprotected-Texts-Bibles-Surprising-Contradictions-ebook/dp/B003YCOPDO/. It’s one of the better books on the subject.

            That being said, it doesn’t really matter. The only reason you have a problem with gay marriage is because of a bronze-age book. That’s it. While it’s true that you may find gay sex a little oogy, that should have nothing to do with you. It’s none of your business what other men do with their private parts. What’s going on is that you’ve found, in the bible, a hedge to hide your bigotry behind. Period. Now you can pretty up your biggotry by saying that the “bible” says it’s wrong. Viola, you’re not the bigot, you’re just following the bible.
            And somehow you want me to PROVE to you that you’re not being a bigot… That’s like asking a duck staring down the edge of your rifle to prove that you’re not trying to kill it.

          • whamprod

            “It was Christians that opposed the Civil Rights Movement. ” You’re an idiot. What faith do you suppose Martin Luther King Jr. believed in when he pastored the Dexter Avenue Baptist Church in Montgomery, Alabama? How about the Southern CHRISTIAN Leadership Conference? How about the REVEREND Abernathy? The REVEREND Jesse Jackson, Sr? It was African animists who took rival tribes into captivity and sold them to Muslim slavers, who in turn sold them to (nominally) Christian slavers. I say “nominally”, because these Christians did not follow the text of scripture. That made them hypocrites. And it was a former slaver, John Newton, who wrote the hymn “Amazing Grace” after he experienced TRUE salvation, not before. And it was a Christian member of the British Parliament, William Wilberforce, who was so inspired by Newton’s hymn that he led the long but ultimately successful trek to outlaw slavery in the British Empire.

            It wasn’t Christianity that made these people bad, anymore than Islam makes all Muslims members of Al Qaeda. That would be like saying that because Charles Manson is an American, America is responsible for his murders. That, my friend, is bone-headed reasoning, particularly when the words of the Bible are there for anybody to read.

            I could go on, but it would just be unmercifully piling it on.

            And by the way, I don’t care what gay people want to do or not do. Ultimately, that is between them and God. I suppose that I care on a spiritual level, but I don’t believe that government ought to be involved in the business of marriage at all.

          • Ben Tousey

            Oh good god. You’re not just an idiot, you’re a fuckin’ moron. What it is about Christians that they so despise knowledge… In the Garden of Eden, god told Eve NOT to eat from the Tree of Knolwedge, and Christians have avoided knolwedge ever since.

            There’s an old saying: “If you’ve got an ugly or uncomfortable historical record that you’d like to have whitewashed, then Christian fundamentalists are the ideologues for you.”

            The slave trade was CREATED by Christians, specifically, European imperialists: France, Spain, Great Britain and Portugal as they colonized the world. They used slaves to work their mines and plantations. Papal Bear Nicholas V’s Dum Diversas granted Catholic rulers the explicit right to enslave non-Christians. George Whitefield, famed for his sparking of the Great Awakening of American evangelicalism, campaigned, in the Province of Georgia, for the legalisation of slavery, joining the ranks of the slave owners that he had denounced in his earlier years, while contending they had souls and opposing mistreatment and owners who resisted his evangelism of slaves.

            [Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God…it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation…it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts.
            —Jefferson Davis, President, Confederate States of America

            Every hope of the existence of church and state, and of civilization itself, hangs upon our arduous effort to defeat the doctrine of Negro suffrage.
            —Robert Dabney, a prominent 19th-century Southern Presbyterian pastor

            … the right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example.
            —Richard Furman, President, South Carolina Baptist Convention

            In 1837, southerners in the Presbyterian denomination joined forces with conservative northerners to drive the antislavery New School Presbyterians out of the denomination. In 1844, the Methodist Episcopal Church split into northern and southern wings over the issue of slavery. In 1845, the Baptists in the South formed the Southern Baptist Convention due to disputes with Northern Baptists over slavery and missions.

            And let’s not forget the Christian Identity Movement, the KKK, Aryan Nations, and the myriad of Christian groups that still argue for slavery.

            The fact that you’re so eager to turn a blind eye to these things suggests that you’re either ignorantly/blissfully unaware of thier existence, or you choose to do what most Christians do… ignor what you don’t like about your religion. But here’s how it works: bullshit is still bullshit, even if you spice it up with oregano and pesto sauce.

          • Gina

            when you can’t refute what he said you turn to cursing and name calling…typical. smh

          • Ben Tousey

            So you can’t read? I addressed every point, and added the information. Calling someone a moron, if they actually ARE a moron, is simply telling the truth. When you learn how to read, I suggest you read the comment, and you’ll see that not only is there an argument, it’s a solid argument… which may explain your comment. You have no response, so you go for the Snidely Whiplash remarks.

          • Gina

            solid argument?? LOL, I think not.

          • Ben Tousey

            Yah, I have to agree with you on this one… you don’t think.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            The words and actions of all the people and groups you named will be judged by God. All who claim to be Christians aren’t necessarily Christians. Even Christians can sin grievously, and not understand the Scriptures correctly.

            Slavery in Israel was basically to pay debt, or because a man couldn’t support himself, so he agreed to serve another. It was also for a limited time:masters were required to free their slaves after seven years, and to treat them graciously in other was until then. That is nothing like how most American slaves were treated–as less than human.

          • Ben Tousey

            I think you misunderstand slavery in Israel… Women, first of all, were property. They could be sold, given away as gifts, or, as in Lot’s case, offered up to be gang-raped. If a woman was raped, then the man who raped her, and the father haggled over a price. If the rapist chose not to marry her, the woman was considered unclean and never allowed to interact with her community.
            Slavery in Jesus day was even worse. Wealthy lenders loaned money to poor farmers, charging just enough interest so that they would never be able to pay the debt. When the farmer couldn’t pay, they were then slaves on the their own property.
            No, my friend, slavery was never good, and Jews were no exception when it came to how they treated their slaves.

          • YouHaveCatTobeKittenMeRightMeo

            The whole ‘love your neighbour as yourself’ ethic of Jesus is fundamentally against wrongful exploitation of others.

          • Ben Tousey

            Actually, when it was applied by Deuteronomy, it meant only free, Hebrew men since women and children were property. When Jesus applied it, it’s a safe bet that he meant to include women and children, but in his parable of the Good Samaritan, he did use a male character.

          • FED UP WITH PC

            Einstein believed in God. He certainly wasn’t a moron or opposed to science and knowledge.

          • Ben Tousey

            And how do you know this? Do you know anything at all about Einstein? I’ll bet not.

            “I believe in Spinoza’s God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings.”
            ~ Albert Einstein
            You should know you subject if you’re going to try to invoke them to make your point.

          • Gina

            oh now hold up, the KKK are not a Christian organization any more than the westboro group. when you speak of “Lot” giving up his daughters, you need to study up on the culture at that time. when someone was a guest in your home, you took great care of them and it may not have been the “right” thing to do but the culture AT THE TIME was what made him do what he did. Abraham had ONE wife! Sarah, he got their concubine pregnant ( that was wrong), listen we never said we were perfect, never!! and anyone can CLAIM to be Christian, it doesn’t mean they are. Hitler was not, the KKK is not, westboro is not. Martin Luther King Jr. was a Baptist ( like me) so the whole Christians being against the civil rights movement, out the window. why is it when we stand up for what we believe we get flamed for it? oh, now I remember!! IN THE BIBLE, Jesus said this would happen when we make a stand in His name. no surprise then.

          • Ben Tousey

            The KKK ARE Christian. Westboro Babptist Church IS Christian. Hitler was a Christian. The same way that ISIS and Al Qaeda is Muslim. You can’t distance yourself from these groups because they make you uncomfortable. They teach from the same book, they serve the same god.

            Second, Lot offered his two daughters because they were property, pure and simple. And still, it’s your favorite story. It’s the story you love to tell every time you come up against the issue of homosexuality. Not only is it wrong, it’s horrific. That you would even consider telling that story shows how little regard for young women you have. That fact that you’re defending it now shows how comfortable with rape you truly are, so long as it happens in the name of god. And ultimately, it also expresses your love for genocide since the story brings you to orgasm every time you tell it.

            So I can have a concubine and that’s okay? As long as I’m married to my cousin?

            The reason you get flamed for standing up for your beliefs is that they’re vile. First of all, they’re beliefs, and therefore not real. The fact that you have to “believe” in the first place suggests that you don’t even have the evidence to support it. I don’t believe the earth is round, it just is. I don’t believe in gravity, it just is. I don’t believe in day and night, they just are, and I don’t have to pray every day that they happen… they just do.

            I DO, however, have to believe in Santa. I do have to believe in the Easter Bunny.

            If you simply believed, that would be fine. You have the right to believe whatever you like. But you refuse to stop there. You insist on inserting your beliefs into everybody’s business. You refuse to let others live their lives. You try to usurp the commons, you attack science, you rewrite history.

            This isn’t happening because of Jesus. People liked Jesus. He was beloved. The only people who hated him were… well… people like you. If you were like Jesus, you’d be liked too.

          • Gina

            you are the one who brought up Lot, I just thought you might educate yourself on the culture at the time and no matter how you try to spin it, those organizations are no more christian than you are. I see you are trying to “rattle my cage” by being vulgar and you still have no education on different cultures and times. you can’t shock me dear, I have heard it all before. :)

          • Ben Tousey

            Not many people of the day offered their children to be gang-raped, and it’s Christians that use Lot as a way to prove god’s hatred for gay people.
            And yes, my friend, these people ARE Christian. They are as Christian as you are. They use your bible, pray to your god, and quote your scriptures. And from where I sit, they’re not much different than you… with the exception that they know their bibles a bit better than you do.

          • Iris Tedder

            AGAIN BEN….show us in the BIBLE where is says GOD HATES GAY PEOPLE…K/ Then u can rant and rave and be so angry..k

          • YouHaveCatTobeKittenMeRightMeo

            Christians are followers of Christ and Christs teachings not Moses or Lot. Don’t go making stuff up.

          • Ben Tousey

            Do me a favor. Read your bible. Make sure you know what you’re talking about before you go opening your mouth. Use your mind first… THEN your words.

          • mark

            Do you know what a canon is?

          • Ben Tousey

            Do you? Judging by your other posts, you don’t even know what’s in the freakin’ bible.

          • mark

            Who says I believe my posts 😉 this specific comment was about how you bring up Lot. If you read it again if not for Abraham Lot would have been killed along with the rest of them as well. Lot’s instance here is written to be descriptive/historical, not to be viewed as righteous. You do have some truth in your statements as far as I have read, but that is how the devil works too, the truth with a bit of screwing around. You read the bible with a subjective view based off of your worldview you know just enough to be “dangerous” but not enough to have a real understanding of who Jesus is and the message of all the books of the bible and their separate authors, and the mixture of the languages, the canon process, the Historical accuracy as accepted by even atheist historians. This will be my last reply to you because you are clearly a heart on your sleeve buffoon. My relationship with Christ has more to do with his grace than my knowledge of which there is no point in sharing online to anyone much less you. so you can judge me based off of my comments on this page but in the real world there is nobody here in my sphere of influence so it doesn’t matter, I can troll just like you do. GOD BLESS Ben, and Hail Hydra.

          • Ben Tousey

            Except it’s not historical. The entire story was pretty much
            made up whole cloth. It’s possible that there was an “Abrahamic” character, a man of some means, nomadic, who claimed to have heard from God, but pretty much everything written about him probably was made up. So there’s nothing
            historical there.

            I would take another look at that subjective viewpoint. You
            are clearly filtering what you read through an already created belief. As a result, you filter out anything that might challenge your already chosen bias. The only way to read the Bible is subjectively. There’s no such thing as complete objectivity. We call come to the document with our own viewpoint. That’s why we have to rely on scientific method, which forces us to challenge those preconceived notions and see the reality behind whatever we claim to be “true.”

            You said, “historical accuracy as accepted by even atheist
            historians…” I hate to tell you this, there is very little historical accuracy about the bible, and very few Christian theologians believe that either. In fact, you can’t read the bible and be Christian… it’s too much of a challenge. That’s how you know that someone has actually read the bible… they reject it. You say to me that I’m not a Christian because I haven’t read the bible… though I have… you’re a Christian because you HAVEN’T read the bible, and I strongly suggest that you do so one day.

            If “God” is truth, then it must recognize itself as truth. If you have to bend historical facts and then lie about it, then either God is a liar, both you and God are liars, or you have no idea who God is. Since the God of the bible doesn’t really exist then I have to deduce that it’s the former. There is nothing dangerous about seeking truth. If God is truth, then he would demand nothing less. And if you read the Old Testament, you’ll see that the Devil was redundant. It was God who did the most damage. There was no need for Satan. Satan is the face God wears when he misbehaves.

            And I do judge you by your words: “For by your words you
            will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned. Or, “A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.” I know your heart, because your words show me your
            heart. Your words show that you don’t take your faith very seriously, that you know very little about the book you claim to believe in and that you don’t “love your enemies.”

            Hail Adonis… god of total hotness.

          • Guest

            LOL…there are plenty of other Bible passes regarding homosexuality without bringing Sodom and Gomorrah into it. Their sins were many and they were wiped off the face of the earth because of them, although you seem to be taking great care that the mob of men in Sodom was demanding that Lot send out his male guests so that they could rape them.

          • YouHaveCatTobeKittenMeRightMeo

            Christians are followers of Christ and teachings of Christ, not Moses. So sister, there is no point in telling someone who is quoting Moses anything because he or she doesn’t even know how to interpret the Bible. They read it as one book and fail to see the Old Testament and the New Testament and their differences. All sexual perversions are a sin.

          • sarah

            everyone “believes” something. so basically you’re also saying that what you think (believe) to be correct, is not real either.

            Another thing you must understand. this world has completely transformed the meaning of Christian. Christian is not some sort of heritage like Italian or Egyptian. True Christians strive to be like Christ everyday, by showing the fruits of the spirit and repenting of their sins and turning away from sinful lifestyles. Let’s be real. Hitler was NOT a “Christian”. –as in the real meaning of a true born again Christian.

            People love to attack us Christians. I wouldn’t dare see you have this type of argument with someone who was trying to force muslim beliefs down your throat. And for the record, people in the middle east still to this day will behead you for doing something like becoming a homosexual. Look it up. They are strong and firm in their beliefs. We are called to share the good news with people and that’s simply what we are trying to do. Watch the movie “God’s Not Dead.” You’ll understand better.

            You obviously have something that you are bitter against God for or else you would have no reason to just not believe in Him. What do you have to lose by believing in Christ? Besides an eternity in Hell? If you don’t believe the Bible to be right, then what exactly is right and wrong?

            Oh, and how exactly do you know the earth is round? Have you gone up into outer space and saw it for yourself? I would hope so since you say that “believing” in something isn’t real if you have to “believe” at all.
            We know the earth is round because we “believe” what astronauts tell us.

            Who was the first president of the USA? How do you know? Did you live to see him? My guess is no. We simply “believe” what we want to believe.

          • Ben Tousey

            Yah, that’s just a word game you like to play. You can’t admit that your beliefs are just that… beliefs, and so you try to muddy the water. It’s a logical fallacy… mostly a red herring, but also a weak analogy.

            As to your argument about Jesus, you’re just trying to distance yourself from those parts of your dogma that make you uncomfortable. Christians are exactly like Christ. It’s Jesus that they find so repugnant. You see, Paul created Christ in his image, vindictive, arrogant, combative, controlling… but Jesus… that’s the guy that freaks everyone out.

            Jesus was all about compassion. He believed that he and god were the same, and that mean that me and god were the same, and you and god were the same. Jesus hated the rich, he hated “Christians,” he hated those in power… and yes, I’m saying hated. This isn’t hyperbole, he hated those people. The gospels are full of him taking pokes at them, undermining them, and flat out calling them whitewashed sepulchres and den of vipers.

            Hitler WAS a Christian.

            People don’t attack Christians. Christians are like bullies. They come onto the playground, start stealing everyone’s lunch money, interfering in their games, and pushing the smaller kids over. And then, when the kids stand up to the bullies, they’re accused of attacking the bullies.

            I also love how you suddenly decide to bring in the Muslims here… just another sign that you’re the bullies… only Christians matter. Muslims are pushing their beliefs down my throat, Christians are. Muslims make up less than one percent of the population in America, Christians over ninety.

            The only good news that you have to share with us is that you’re homophobic, Islamophobic, bigoted, hyper-fanatical, extremist, racist, dogmatic and blind.

            The fact that you couldn’t even have a conversation without trying to elevate your ideology, and at the same time strike down someone else’s suggests that you’re all those things you say you’re not.

            And finally, you have got to stop slathering your bullshit all over everybody else because you don’t like what they say. I am not bitter against god. That’s beyond stupid and the fact that you have to say it makes you beyond stupid. Being bitter with god would be tantamount to being bitter with Santa Clause, or being bitter with Lord Vadar, or being pissed at Luke Skywalker.

            You ask me what I have to lose by folling Christ? I respond… My soul. As a human, I can care about the poor, I can care about the sick, I can care about women, I can care about children. As a Christian, I must abandon those things and care only about abortion, only about guns, only about repealing Obamacare… And what’s worse, is that I would be stuck in heaven, for eternity, with the likes of you. Your version of heaven is North Korea where nobody has any rights and everyone behaves as you, and there’s no escape. That’s what I have to lose.

            That you’re okay with rape, with slavery, with polygamy, with genocide, which are all things that the bible upholds, I am not. That you consider them right, I do not.

            Oh, and now you’re going to tell me that the earth is flat? You’re a flat-earther? I do not believe what astronauts tell me… That also is a logical fallacy. Seriously, you should look up logical fallacies, you’re pushing them out like diarrhoea.

            Trust me, I don’t have to believe who the first president of the United States was, or that the earth is round, or that our universe is fourteen billion years old. And the fact that you think we do shows just how how little though you’ve given this.

          • sarah

            Wow for someone who doesn’t like word play… You are very good at it yourself. I counted 12 times you put words into my mouth. Did I ever say the earth was flat? Did I ever say I didn’t care for the poor, or women, or children? Of course not. But people like you only want to hear what you want to hear and you twist things around to make yourself sound better.

            First of all, Paul did not create Christ. Second, we are not the same with God. Jesus is God’s son but we believe in the trinity, holy spirit, God and Jesus – all being the same. We are not one with Him. Third, Jesus never hated Christians, or rich people. I’m not sure which Bible you’re reading honestly… But you’ve got it all wrong.

            Christians are not like bullies. Yes, there are of course those people out there that call themselves Christians and act just like the world. But for those of us who are still drying to defend the true meaning of Christianity, we are not being bullies. It’s people like you who are bullying the Christians saying things that aren’t true and judging us and twisting our words all around.
            I’m not having conversation with you. And this is a blog post about Christianity. Which brings me to my next question…why are you even on here? Or care to write anything? You obviously believe differently so move on. And of course these are my “beliefs” I’ve never said anything otherwise. AND of course I’m going to elevate my ideology. Isn’t that what you do when someone tries to debate against you?

            All of this to say, you can’t win them all. When our final day comes we will see what the truth really is. Until then I would hope that you would “lose your soul” from the world and give it over to Christ.

          • Ben Tousey

            Yah, it’s kind of obvious that you don’t know what word play is. You said that you’re a Christian… therefore, you care more about abortion than you do about taking care of children. You care more about guns than you do human life. You live for one purpose, to repeal Obamacare so that the sick will never have access to heath care. That’s what Christians are about. We don’t hear what we want to hear. We hear what you tell us. You brought up that you have to “believe” who the first president of the United States was, that you had to “believe” that the earth was round… thereby making it known that you don’t understand the basic science behind all that stuff, and that you are incapable of understanding history and just have to go by what you’ve heard.

            And YES… Christianity is a creation of Paul. James the brother of Jesus, and Peter Jesus’ disciple dogged Paul his entire ministry trying to get the early churches to ignore what Paul was saying. Paul even writes about it in Galations.

            Second, regardless of what you say about Jesus, you’re wrong. You have no proof. While most scholars do agree that a man named Jesus existed, we don’t know who he was or what he stood for. You “believe” in a trinity, though such a thing does not exist.

            As to which bible I’m reading, I’m reading the bible you claim to know, and yet have never read. I strongly recommend another look through the gospels. You’ll be surprised at what you find in there.

            Christians always feel persecuted, but Jesus was beloved. If you were like Jesus, you’d be beloved too. In truth, you’re more like Christ, and he wasn’t so popular. People dying to defend something doesn’t make it true. I would never die for a belief, that’s just silly.

            As to “why am I here,” why are YOU here? Why are you trying to get into my bedroom? Why do you come down to the parade every year and try to create havoc. Why do you stand out on street corners shouting and yelling and threatening with hill. Why do you try to make laws that favor you and hurt others? Why do you try to take science out of the classroom? Why do you try to tell women what they can and can’t do with their bodies? Why do you force people to believe something that you know to be false?

            Why don’t you move on?

            And NO, I don’t elevate my ideology. That’s what makes you a bigot. You’re not able to see truth, you only see ideology. I’m looking for truth. I’m looking to see what is. I don’t elevate my beliefs. If there’s evidence, then I debate that. If there’s no evidence, then it’s a hypothesis, and we can debate, but I don’t elevate my hypothesis above another since neither of us has evidence. Only a bigot would elevate their ideology over another.

            And I don’t have to wait for my final day to see what the truth really is. That’s the beauty of science. I’m seeing it now. I will continue to see it. Tomorrow I will see more truth than I did today.

            I see the truth now, I don’t blind myself with beliefs. I refuse to give my soul away and become like you, soulless, heartless, and afraid of reality. I chose to embrace life, not run from it.

          • sarah

            I don’t know what you mean when you say I care more about abortion than taking care of children….when being pro-life means I care about saving children’s lives. And why are you assuming that I believe all these things? You say I live for one purpose – to repeal Obamacare so that the sick are without healthcare. Where did you get this information from? Do you know me personally? You are being the exact definition of judgmental.

            You say that Christians try to pretend that “science” doesn’t exist, but a lot of the scientific advances in the past were done by Christians. How does being a Christian automatically make me believe that science doesn’t exist. And evolution isn’t science by the way. It’s a belief.

            You obviously have a strong hatred towards Christians. And you assume that you know everything about every single one. You know nothing about me and yet here you are trying to prove to me, what I believe in. I know what I believe to be true and you are putting words in my mouth.

            You still never answered my question as to why you’re writing on here when you clearly are against Christianity. Why are you even reading a Christian blog? You must have some kind of knowledge that maybe just maybe what we’re saying is true.

            By truth I mean after this life. After death. You can’t possibly see the truth today or tomorrow because it’s not something that we can see in this human life.

            And pual did not create Christ. if you did read the bible you would have read… Matthew 16:16 “Peter replied; You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus and Christ were the same person. Again, not sure what Bible you’re referring to. And Jesus was loved, but he was also persecuted just like us Christians are today. The Bible says we will have persecution BECAUSE Jesus was also persecuted. John 15:18 “If the world hates you, know that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. Remember the words I spoke to you: No servant is greater than his master. If the persecuted me, they will persecute you also.” -Jesus.

            What laws am I trying to create? Last time I checked I’ve never tried to create laws that hurt others… Really not sure where you base your information from. It makes no sense at all.

          • Ben Tousey

            Seriously, where are you coming up with the bullshit. Liars for Jesus. Read it, Spend some time with it, stop trying to pretend that Christians have contributed anything to science. It was Christians who incarcerated Galileo when he said that the earth rotated around the sun, not the other way around. It was Christians who have tried to have science taken out of our schools. It’s Christians who have opposed science across the board, and those who have challenged that, historically, have paid for it with their lives.

            It is not judgemental to tell the truth about someone. You want me to believe that you’re something that you’re not. Again, I don’t believe. All of the evidence points to directly to what I said. The majority of Christians in the political and public spotlight are doing just that. You can’t piss on my feet and tell me it’s raining. If you try to enact laws that go after women’s bodies, if you try to enact laws that take science of out schools, if you try to attack children, healthcare, Muslims, brown people… and then tell me that I’m being judgemental… that just shows how ignorant you are.

            The fact that you have to wait until you die to find out the “truth,” again, suggests that you’re just making shit up. You know you can’t prove it, so therefore you try to use the life after death thing to make your argument.

            “They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.” Matthew 21:46
            “He consented, and watched for an opportunity to hand Jesus over to them when no crowd was present. Luke 22:6″

            John was written 100 years after Jesus death by a group of people who had one purpose in mind… vilify the Jews. John was written by the Fox “news” of gospel writers. John is the Fox “news” of the bible. Mark is the CNN, and Matthew and Luke are the Huffington Post. The earliest gospel, Mark, was written forty years after Jesus died. By then Paul had already canvassed the Mediterranean with his gospel of Isis and Osiris, death and resurrection.

            But again, the bible is either the proof, or it is the claim, it cannot be both. Just because Peter said it, doesn’t make it true. Paul made it all up.

            That you can’t see the harm you’re doing to America is typical of cognitive dissonance. You create havoc, and then pretend that the consequences of that havoc didn’t come from you, but come from something else.

            The fact that we have to contend with people like say saying that “we’re a Christian nation” and that our forefathers were Christian, and that you want to rewrite history books and rewrite science books…

            Your version of truth isn’t possible since you don’t know truth. What you have is ideology, made up by a guy who had a psychotic breakdown on the way to Damascus, which wasn’t even in Jerusalem’s jurisdiction, so Paul had no authority there. He was probably a temple cop, or a mercenary, sent to Damascus to kidnap someone on orders of the temple authorities, and on his way, had a psychotic breakdown. From there, he went on to create a person that Jesus own brother didn’t even recognize.

            Your desire to foist your ideas upon me, and to slather me with your bullshit look good from your perspective, but I already see the truth. That’s the beauty of science. It tells us what’s going on, and we can test it to make sure of what we’re seeing. I dont’ have to run from it like you do.

          • YouHaveCatTobeKittenMeRightMeo

            Roman Catholics are not the only Christians. Galileo was a Christian even when he died.

          • Ben Tousey

            So what’s your point? He was also put under house arrest because he taught that the earth revolved around the sun and moon, not the other way around.

          • YouHaveCatTobeKittenMeRightMeo

            All the gun crimes are done by liberal psychos and Democrat voters. It is a fact.

          • Ben Tousey

            If it’s a fact then where’s your proof?
            You can lead a Christian to knowledge, but you can’t make them think.

          • Guest

            LOL…you demand proof of other’s claims but present a book which is nothing more than one man’s opinions to back up your own. Double standard much?

          • Ben Tousey

            Huh? The only book we’re talking about is the bible, so if you’re talking about a double standard, all I’ve got to say is, “Check the label on that baggage, cause I think it’s yours.” But thanks for agreeing with me that the bible is just one man’s opinion… although I wouldn’t go quite that far. There were quite a few men involved in writing it.

          • Supercapital

            “”All the gun crimes are done by liberal psychos and Democrat voters. It is a fact.””
            AHAHAHAHHA, no. Enjoy your ignorance.

          • sarah

            Oh, and go to a country with muslim beliefs… I can guarantee they will try to get you to believe what they believe. America was founded on Christian principles. But unfortunately people have become so worried about “freedom of religion” instead of keeping up on the Christian morals. Now anyone can believe anything and be right. No. Not everyone can be right. Makes no sense.

          • Ben Tousey

            I don’t need to go to a Muslim country, I have the Christian Taliban right here. But thanks, bigot.

            I strongly recommend you read the book “Liars for Jesus,” so you can filly see that we know you’re lying to us, and you’re doing so blatantly, and in the face of evidence to the contrary. http://www.amazon.com/Liars-Jesus-Religious-Alternate-American-ebook/dp/B002OHD23E/ You Christians have the exact same arguments, that you made up, that are lies. Doesn’t one of your commandments say that you’re not supposed to lie.

            And not everybody IS right… For example, you’re wrong. You’re lying to me right here. You’re making up stuff right here. You’re being a bigot right here. So clearly, not everyone is right… If fact, you’re wrong.

          • YouHaveCatTobeKittenMeRightMeo

            Lier

          • Ben Tousey

            I’m going to need you to check the label on that baggage, because I think it’s yours.

          • Eric

            Sorry the USA was founded of religious freedom because the Christians where being forced to go by how Britain made then worship. Second of all marriage was first pagan in the earliest Christians just decided to say it was in the bible. Third if the old testament is no longer valid show me a bible verse that is after the old testament that says its valid forth the bible when the crowed was going to stone a prostitute Jesus said “let he who is blameless cast the first stone” and I for one find the meaning of the bible and Jedo-Christianity to be more hateful then loving look at how you are talking to people you don’t know on the internet. I have a hard time finding the rule that says “and ye shalt hateth thy who art different then you” or “and ye shalt hateth thy who art sinners”. You Christians preach love yet I can find only hate. I, myself was hated for being autistic by all my christian peers please tell me if hating autistic people is the right thing to do i turned away because i was hated before i was even old enough to speak. you Christians are so self righteous you hate things not even listed in the bible. I am tired of people using this book (yes I said book and kept bible lowercase) to deal out all your hate on others. So i encourage you all to send your hate my way for this post. The earth,The air, The fire, The water, may the elements bless you .

          • Iris Tedder

            Ben stop while ur ahead… PAUL CREATED CHRIST????? U SERIOUS???? DOUBLE WOW. Jesus HATED rich people?? uhh.. hmmm NO..wrong again. What bible are u using for your arguments? Jesus hated Christians? UHH his name JESUS CHRIST…(CHRIST’ians)? Wow… u are more amusing than wise. I do not hate you or any homosexual, or anyone for that matter. I may not like their ways..but HATE is a very harsh word.. When that word was used in the Bible…as u well know…Hebrew/YIDDISH interpretations were a lot di’f than our own English language. Anyway…hate all u want… but its not healthy nor is it productive..

          • Ben Tousey

            Stop while I’m ahead, or while you’re behind.

            Look, It’s not my fault that you don’t understand the bible: how it was written, who wrote it, the politics behind it… that’s your issue not mine.

            As to “what bible I’m reading,” I’m reading the bible you all yammer from, but never bother to read yourselves.

            Jesus’ name is Joshua, not Christ. That’s a term that Paul inserted onto him.

            If you tell someone they can’t be who they are, what nature created them to be, what do you call that? That’s hate. I don’t hate women, but I don’t like their ways. They need to understand that they are just property, and that they have no protections in the bible.

            And if you’re going to attack other’s intelligence, it might be a good idea if you learned how to spell.

          • YouHaveCatTobeKittenMeRightMeo

            Jesus is the name given by the Greeks. Zeus. To Yeshua. If you want to be treated as ‘intelligent’ you must stop calling yourself intelligent.

            Women do have protection in Christianity and teachings of Christ. Don’t go quoting Moses. Quote Jesus and make your point saying women don’t have protection.

          • Ben Tousey

            Seriously, Have you READ your bible? Oh wait, in the beginning, God told Adam and Eve to avoid the Tree of Knowledge, and Christians have been avoiding knowledge ever since.

          • YouHaveCatTobeKittenMeRightMeo

            Don’t reply to the obvious troll.

          • Ben Tousey

            And yet I just got seventeen replies from you… Troll much?

          • mark

            Many will hear and never understand, only a fool talks this much about things he does not know. Don’t even acknowledge him. Let a fool talk and they will tell you everything they don’t know.

          • Ben Tousey

            The fool has said in his heart, there is no god. The wise Tweet it.

          • charles freeman

            Physician, heal thyself. I don’t know you, but your comments are filled with anger, arrogance, combativeness, and attempts at controlling others through YOUR viewpoints. Your rootless existence has obviously led you to the point where you feel the need to attack those you see as a threat. Why else this indefatigable effort to convince others that their faith is not real? Breathe, Ben, and realize that while your comments are welcome, they have no meaning to the faithful. You might tickle the ears of others who believe as you do, but your sermon falls on deaf ears of those with faith. In other words, you’re wasting your breath.

          • Ben Tousey

            So I’m curious, Charles, where did you get your psychology degree. Obviously not from a legitimate school since psychologists are NOT allowed to diagnose over email.
            What you find in my comments are facts, based on observation, based on reality, that go against your mythology. Therefore, rather than see them as such, you’ve choses to make me the “other.” That way you can hate me and Jesus can hate me to. I don’t blame you for this, it’s evolutionary. Our species has been doing it for tens of thousands of years (except the Jesus part).
            I don’t know what you mean by faithful, but you’re right, those who have chosen to put their beliefs into a fantasy are not going give that belief up, regardless of the facts on the ground. 9-11 Truthers, Anti-gay bigots, Creationists, Moon-Landing Deniers, Roswell Conspirators, JFK Conspirators… the list is long.
            These people are not interested in the facts, they’re interested in pursuing their conspiracy theory. Again, I don’t blame you. It’s evolutionary. We’ve been doing it for tens of thousands of years. The difference is, I know that, and you won’t.

          • Iris Tedder

            @Ben…KKK was what??? LOL… SORRY BUT KKK was Liberal morons hating Blacks. W/Boro Church…RADICAL AND CRAZY PEOPLE “””CLAIMING” and Blaming to Be Christian…Hitler was actually a JEW….DEAR LORD..WHERE do u people get ur information??? BILL MAHER SHOW??? GEEESH..GET A CLUE PLEASE. RAPE is wrong on any level in any way shape or form. Ben u are a very angry, and sad person. NO one hates you if your homosexual. God doesn’t hate homosexuals either. HE loves us all. Why do u people make HIM out to be this BAD GUY that HATES you just because you’re not a Christian??? OR Homosexual? That is just so so blatantly WRONG. GOD IS LOVE…HE DIED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD….Not just for me…my neighbor , my dentist..etc..etc.. BUT FOR EVERYONE IN THIS WORLD. HE GAVE HIS OWN SON SO THAT U , ME, EVERYONE MAY LIVE AND TRY TO LIVE OUR LIVES THE RIGHT WAY… LOVING ONE ANOTHER.
            HE IS NOT UR ENEMY….WE ARE OUR OWN ENEMY…

          • Ben Tousey

            Iris, has your Caps Lock gotten stuck, or you just don’t understand how language works.

            So do you have anything to say, or are you just content in typing in all caps, and asking questions like you don’t understand WTF is going on?

            I didn’t know you were a psychologist. Is that diagnosis that I’m angry or sad a professional diagnosis? Cause I’m not paying you. I’m going to diagnose you. I had one semester of Psychology so I’m going for it: You’re opinionated, and just a bit crazy, possibly bordering on insane, and you don’t know how a Caps Lock works.

            Thinking that “god” hates me for being gay is tantamount to thinking that “Santa” hates me for being gay, or that the Easter Bunny hates me for being gay. I don’t give a lot of thought to what imaginary creatures think of me. I’m more concerned about the psychotic nut-bags that use his name think, and that’s where it gets scary, since they’re uneducated, adamantly opposed to science, adamantly opposed to education, and desperate to harm anyone who disagrees with them.

            You brought up a lot of “questions,” but offered no rebuttal. Your whole argument is based soley on ad hominem, which is irrelevant in the debate.

            And Jesus didn’t die for my sins, he died for his own sins.

          • FED UP WITH PC

            Question Ben. Why are you so angry? Why do atheists get so angry at people who believe in God?

          • Ben Tousey

            Question FED UP: Where did you get your psychology degree? Are you aware that you’re not allowed to diagnose a patient from a distance? That’s unethical.

          • YouHaveCatTobeKittenMeRightMeo

            Wrong. Christians are followers of Christ not Moses. Don’t go quoting Moses and say Bible says so. There is a reason why the Bible is divided into the Old Testament and the New Testament. Christians follow the teachings of Christ which are in the New Testament.

          • Ben Tousey

            Then why quote Moses? Why use Leviticus to support your bigotry? Why quote the old testament all? If it’s true, that you are new testament creatures, you can no longer quote Isaiah, Jeremiah, Psalms, or the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, Ezekiel, Daniel… You can only use the new testament.
            Unfortunately, since Jesus was a Jew, he actually did find all of those books relevant. He even took his title from Daniel, The Son of Man. His Sermon on the Mount was a rehashing of Deuteronomy.
            The guy you all worship didn’t exist. He was created by Paul. In fact, Paul had to make three trips back to Jerusalem to convince Jesus’ actual disciples, and in particular his brother, James, that he was legit. And even by Paul’s own admission in Galations, they never bought it. Peter dogged Paul his entire ministry. The Church at Jerusalem sent letters around to the churches that Paul started to tell them that Paul did not represent them.
            This is all IN YOUR BIBLE, if you would read it.
            Jesus, on the other hand, you hate. In fact, based on your rhetoric, you despise. He was liberal, never once told a woman what she should do with her vagina, never condemned a homosexual to hell, loved the poor, loved children, made women a part of his ministry…
            IN fact, the only people that Jesus hated… YOU! He hated the rich, he hated the religious elite (Christians), he hated those who valued “morality” over humanity.
            The guy you worship doesn’t exist. And the guy you pretend you worship, finds you deplorable in every move. If I may quote Jesus as he spoke to people such as yourself: “You nest of vipers. You whitewashed sepulchers. You snakes…”

          • FED UP WITH PC

            REALLY? You truly believe that the KKK or Westboro or Hitler represent Christians? Really? Seriously?

          • Ben Tousey

            No, I don’t believe it. I know it. The same way I know that water boils at 212 degrees, or that the earth is round, or that the sun is the center of our galaxy.
            Did you actually have a counter-argument, or were you just showing off your ignorance?

          • Sam

            Gina, you’re defending the actions of Lot because they were in line with what was culturally acceptable, while arguing at the same time that cultural acceptance of gay marriage is wrong? The moral contortions you’re going through make the head spin.

            You also write as if you represent all Christians. There are many gay Christians, as well as many straight Christians who support LGBT rights including gay marriage.

          • Clive Johnson

            Christianity was and is deeply entwined with the Klan.

            “But in the late 1860s, white Southern voices against the Klan were in the minority. One of the Klan’s greatest strengths during this period was the large number of editors, ministers, for-
            mer confederate officers and political leaders who hid behind its sheets and guided its actions.”

            “Ministers, sheriffs, policemen, mayors and judges either ignored the violence or secretly participated.”

            http://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/downloads/publication/Ku-Klux-Klan-A-History-of-Racism.pdf

            “…two-thirds of the national Klan lecturers were Protestant ministers,” says historian Brian R. Farmer.”

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            First, not every one who claims to be a Christian is one. Only those who humble themselves, acknowledge their sin, repent, and trust and obey His commands, believing in God’s promises and trusting in His grace, are born again.

            Second, God’s Word that homosexuality is a sin trumps the UN or any other fallible human opinion, no matter how many claim it is their civil right. God set the standard from the beginning, “male and female”, one man, one woman–no other pairing. (The patriarchs who took more than one wife or concubine were sinning against God’s clear standard, and the Bible context again and again shows the result of that sin in their lives.)

            It’s not bigotry to insist on the truth and what is morally right by God’s unchanging standard; it’s arrogance to say you know better than God.

            Homosexuality and all forms of immorality and unrighteousness that tempt sinful humans are to be resisted, not catered to. Without God, it is impossible, but with God, all righteous things are possible.

          • Ben Tousey

            I hate to tell you this, but they ARE Christians. They use your bible, they pray to your god, and they quote your scriptures. And they’re right. Everything they say actually exists in the bible. What scares you is that you believe the exact same thing, but when you see it coming from someone like the KKK or Westboro Baptist Church, it freaks you out… because you can’t imagine being that egregious. Yet, they expose you. They take away the pretty talk and show what you really think, deep down, where nobody’s looking. Not even you.

            God’s word is the claim. You can’t be both the claim and the proof. So you’ve got to decide… which is which. A bronze-age document could never compare to a document written now with all of our science and technology, which they didn’t have back then.

            If you’re going to use creation as the standard for how humans should couple, then I have a couple of questions for you. First of all, which version of creation are you quoting?

            I P’s version of creation god only created 1 person in the form of two… In essence, god was a hermaphrodite and so Adam married himself.

            In J/E, god created man, and then brought all the animals to Adam to find a mate. When no suitable mate was found, then god made woman. EVE was an afterthought. According to J/E, god really did intend for Christians to marry their pets.

            And if you take something that nature created, that nature set up, and you call it wrong because a bunch of bronze-age men found it weird, then yes, that is bigotry. It’s ignorance. It’s fanaticism. It’s insanity. It’s the height of stupidity.

            Again, homosexuality is not a sin. That’s like saying being African American is a sin, or being Korean is a sin. You cannot call basic biology, basic science, basic humanity, a sin. For if you do, then you are devaluing the human, and, in issues, insulting god on the way it chose to bring life to the world.

          • YouHaveCatTobeKittenMeRightMeo

            Westbro baptists have around 15 members. While global Christian population is around 3 billion or more. What a fine example. At least the muslim terrorists are 30% of the whole muslim religion even according to CIA estimates.

          • Ben Tousey

            But that’s just your racism showing through. All you see on your side is the few people from Westboro Baptist Church. You don’t notice the KKK, the Tea Party, Hitler, Russian Orthodox Church, The Republican Party (Cliven Bundy…)… all Christians.
            The fact that you can see it in Islam, but not in Christianity, shows that you have deliberately chosen bigotry over truth, and shows that you are no better than one of those Muslims you currently despise.

          • FED UP WITH PC

            The Tea Party has nothing to do with racism. For God’s sakes, stop kicking a dead horse! And Islamic Extremism IS deadly. They chop off peoples’ heads, they stone women for being raped. Heck my Muslim friends even acknowledge that! When was the last time you saw a group of Christians get together and chop off someone’s head for not being Christian? And do not recite some incident from a thousand years ago either. I mean TODAY.

          • Ben Tousey

            Oh my god, I wish you would read your own post. You just made my point… Racist.

          • Cake_or_Death

            http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/30/world/africa/muslim-man-is-beheaded-in-central-african-republic.html?_r=1

            Not that I agree with anyone one way or the other. But there are lots of very current examples of religious extremists from every religion doing terrible things.

          • FED UP WITH PC

            You sound very lost, uninformed, and short-sited. Like I said, I could care less who you sleep with, who you marry, or what your belief system is. But, you should not generalize. Generalizations are much like if I said all homosexuals are pedophiles. They are not, and I know that, but you cannot say all Christians are KKK members or behave like the nuts at Westboro. For you to acuse others of having such ugly hearts, you must have some personal experience with that. And I am sorry that you have had such bad experiences.

          • Ben Tousey

            Speaking of lost and uninformed. Have you actually READ the book you’re claiming you believe in? I know you haven’t based on how uninformed your comments are. That’s THEE book you’re supposed to have read. Okay, so you haven’t read Kierkegaard, Spinoza, Parit… whatever. But for Christ’s sake, the least you could do is read the one book you’re supposedly following.

          • USMCVet96

            If you would have stuck with the second half, I could respect your comments….
            But throwing stones, making up affiliations to suit your whims and name calling invalidate the intelligent arguments you pointed out. It’s too bad really.

          • Ben Tousey

            I have no idea what you’re even talking about. Are you telling me that you consider telling the truth to be throwing stones? Are you telling me that pointing out the obvious is name calling? So how does one earn your respect, lying? If that’s what it takes, I’m not interested in your respect. I value the truth far more than I value your hurt feelings.

          • Iris Tedder

            OH…the UN agrees? WOW… well now I’ll rest better knowing that one…GEEESH. KKK was a LIBERAL bunch of idiots that hated blacks just for the heck of it. Christians NEVER opposed Civil Rights…actually Martin Luther KING a REPUBLICAN was an amazing leader whose party fully supported is movement..of which most were Believers/Christians. * Not sure where ur gettng ur info on Cruz/Bachman etc unless of course ur making it all up..and WoW no Sarah Palin jokes?? hmmmm ur slippin libs.lol
            Anyway… U do not have a clue of what u are talking about. SHOW US PROOF…AS I CAN most definitely. Of course none of u liberals would believe it so whats the point. LET ME JUST SAY THIS…AND BE DONE WITH THIS ridiculous display of UNEDUCATED humans.. GOD IS REAL….THE BIBLE IS REAL, OUR SINS ARE REAL, DO WHATEVER U CHOSE TO DO ….but just remember… ONE DAY..WE WILL ALL KNOW AND AS for me…I’d rather be on the RIGHT SIDE ANY DAY…THAN ON THE WRONG SIDE (which in this case is the ‘LEFT’)…

          • Ben Tousey

            Wow, Iris, you have clearly taken god’s injunction against knowledge to heart. In Eden, god told Adam and Eve NOT to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, and Christians have been avoiding it ever since. And YOU seem to have made it an art.

            Things aren’t “so” because you say they’re so, and the fact that you suddenly had to “insert the world liberal” here shows that this is less about a discussion of fact, and more a diatribe based entirely upon ideology. The people I mentioned, Cruz and Bachmann (you spelled it wrong) was to point out that they were Christians… behaving just the way you say Christians don’t behave.

            The irony of your comments is that Jesus, the biblical Jesus, was a liberal… a FLAMING liberal. If Jesus were to walk into your church today, you’d probably kill him too.

            As to your ad homenim attacks, let me just mention that the words you choose to identify others probably more accurately represent yourself, and you choose them because they’re the only way you know to respond. Those who jump to ad homenim have no argument, just ideology, and I think that makes you more sad than you think I am sad.

          • YouHaveCatTobeKittenMeRightMeo

            You are full of gas. You are a typical liberal who sugar coats feces and presents it to the people as the truth by writing too much or talking too much.

          • Ben Tousey

            That’s it? That’s all you got? Ad homenim and personal attacks. That’s not an argument. In fact, that’s where you go when you don’t have an argument.
            If I may quote one of your heroes. “You den of vipers. You whitewashed sepulchres, you hypocrites.” And Jesus was talking to you, not to me. He was talking to the Christians, not to the people.

          • Davis

            First, he was actually talking to the Pharisees, the Jewish leaders of the time (Matthew 23 ESV). They had been corrupted from thinking too highly of themselves. They did not believe in Jesus as the Christ (or in the Old Testament, Messiah) so they were not Christians, at all. Throughout the passage, Jesus says, “Woe to you Pharisees!” not Christians (Matthew 23 ESV).

            Second, Adam and Eve were tempted into eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (Genesis 2:7 ESV), not the Tree of Knowledge. Satan put in their heads the thought of Adam and Eve “being able to be like God, knowing good and evil” (Genesis 3:5 ESV).

            Third, on the subject of homosexuality, Christians do not only use the Old Testament to oppose it. In 1 Corinthians 6:9 ESV, Paul says to the Corinthians, who had a history of being unlawful people, that “the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Not the sexually immoral, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor theives, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the Kingdom of God.” Then comes the best part. “And such were some of you. But you were washed and you were sanctified and you were justified in the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

            Fourth, Paul absolutely did NOT create the Christ. Jesus and the Christ/Messiah are one and the same. He declared it himself, and fulfilled prophecies that point to his deity. 1) He said it himself that he is (John 5 ESV). He said that he is equal in person, works, sovereignty, power, judgement, honor, and resurrection power with God. Also, in Luke 23 ESV, his enemies who crucified him admitted to saying that “surely this man was innocent!” (Luke 23:49 ESV). These are only a fraction of all the other evidence in Scripture attesting to his deity as the Christ. 2) Several Old Testament Scriptures can be used to confirm his deity, as well. For example, Jesus Christ said in Luke 7:22-23 ESV, that “the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised.” He is commanding his disciples to tell John the Baptist see what he has done. This is a direct confirmation of the prophecy of Isaiah 26:19 ESV, that says “your dead will live, your corpses rise. You in the dust awake and shout for joy.” It’s speaking of a song that will one day be sung in Judea. When the Messiah comes. There are countless more prophecies fulfilled and quotes that Jesus said that affirm to him being the Christ and Messiah.

            I have amassed this reply from Scripture and Scripture alone and have used no bias from any other outside source.

          • Ben Tousey

            Pharisees, aka Christians, aka Republicans.

            You’re comment: “I have amassed this reply from Scripture and Scripture alone and have used no bias from any other outside source,” shows that 1. you know nothing about the subject from which you speak, 2. you’re caught up in a mythological paradox (but I don’t think you’re mentally prepared to deal with it), 3. you hide your bigotry behind Jesus, but you are, in fact, a bigot, and 4. you’re completely unqualified to have this discussion.

            Don’t get me wrong, I believe in your freedom to hold your deeply religiously held bigotry, that’s your right. But I’m not going to let you slather it on me.

            And, since I’m bored, I’ll play along.

            Then, of course there’s the
            infamous four: The four verses in the Bible that ban homosexuality. Here they
            are in their entirety so that you can see them for yourself.

            The first one shows up in a list of
            sexual prohibitions in the book of Leviticus.

            “Do not lie with a man as one lies
            with a woman, that is detestable.

            Leviticus 18:22

            If a man lies with a man as one
            lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put
            to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

            Leviticus 20:13

            Therefore God gave them over in the
            sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their
            bodies with one another.

            They exchanged the truth of God for
            a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is
            forever praised. Amen.

            Because of this, God gave them over
            to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural
            ones.

            In the same way the men also
            abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one
            another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves
            the due penalty for their perversion.

            Romans 1:24-27.

            Do you not know that the wicked
            will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually
            immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual
            offenders…

            1 Corinthians 6:9

            And that is what some of you were.

            1 Corinthians 6:11

            Well there you have it. That seems
            pretty cut and dry. You can’t argue with those injunctions can you? But let’s
            look at what else Paul said in Corinthians, just a few verses later.

            Now for the matters you wrote
            about. It is good for a man not to marry. But since there is so much
            immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.

            1 Corinthians 1:1-2

            Christians love to use this verse
            as a ban on Gay marriages, saying that true marriage is a union of one man, and
            one woman, but Paul is really just making marriage a concession to those who
            can’t handle their morality.

            I say this as a concession, not as
            a command.

            1 Corinthians 7:6

            But if they
            cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to
            burn with passion.

            1 Corinthians 7:9

            Paul also has some other commands
            right alongside the ban on homosexuality, and I don’t see these rules enforced
            anymore.

            Every man who prays or prophesies
            with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or
            prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors the head—it is just as though her
            head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair
            cut off, and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved
            off, she should cover her head.

            1 Corinthians 11:4-6

            Judge for yourselves: Is it proper
            for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not the very nature of
            things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, but that
            if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a
            covering. If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other
            practice—nor do the churches of God.

            1 Corinthians 11:15

            In Leviticus, there’s an injunction
            that says “Do not come near a woman during her period of uncleanness to uncover
            her nakedness.” Leviticus 18:19. I don’t hear that one preached from the pulpit
            too often. In Leviticus 20:18 the same injunction is repeated, just a little
            differently. “If a man lies with a woman in her infirmity and uncovers her
            nakedness, he has laid bare her flow and she has exposed her blood flow; both
            of them shall be cut off from among their people.”

            In Leviticus 20:8 it reads, “You
            shall faithfully observe my laws. I the Lord make you holy.”

            Let’s look at that closely.
            According to this passage, God’s laws are to be obeyed. There isn’t anything in
            this scripture that says “some of my laws.” Jesus even went so far as to say if
            you break one commandment, you’ve broken them all. In the Pentateuch, there are
            over six hundred laws, and if we want to take one out of there, then we’ve got
            to take them all out. That means you can’t show deference to the rich. You
            can’t sow two types of seed in the same field. You can’t eat blood if you eat
            meat. There are several types of meat you can’t eat. There were many laws about
            sacrificial lambs and scapegoats and holidays and religious ceremonies and
            cleanliness. You can’t just lift one of the scriptures out of this passage
            unless you’re prepared to use them all. This is true of Leviticus, and Corinthians.

            In my copy of the Torah, translated
            from Hebrew by the Jewish Publication Society, they have this to say about this
            particular verse.

            Far more
            controversial, from the modern standpoint is the outright condemnation of
            sexual relations between males—conduct for which the death penalty is
            prescribed. We have no record of a death sentence for this crime being carried
            out under Jewish auspices….

            In his famous 1935
            letter to the concerned mother of a homosexual man, Sigmund Freud wrote,
            “Homosexuality is assuredly no advantage, but it is nothing to be ashamed of,
            no vice, no degradation, it cannot be classified as an illness.” …

            In many cultures
            there has been little or no objection to homosexual behavior. The ancient
            Egyptians condemned it, but it was widespread among the Greeks. In the Athens
            of Pericles and Plato, love affairs between teenage boys and older men were
            frequent and were even considered beneficial for the intellectual and moral
            development of the younger party. Even in societies that officially ban such
            practices, they occur more frequently than former generations supposed—or at
            least admitted. Homosexual behavior has also been noted among lower animals as
            well…

            Our greatest needs
            at present are to gain more knowledge on the subject—knowledge which is sought
            objectively—and to insure that individual reactions to this admittedly
            sensitive subject do not result in the denial of simple justice and fairness of
            homosexual women and men.

            The Torah—A Modern Commentary
            pp881-883

            Edited by W. Gunther Plaut

            Published by the Jewish Publication
            Society

            But it can be argued that the
            command was reaffirmed in the New Testament, so that makes it credible, right?

            What really makes me crazy with
            those who use the Bible to condemn homosexuality is that so many of them are
            fat. There is nothing more insulting than Fat Fundies screaming out that
            homosexuals are degrading their bodies. The Bible has just as much to say about
            gluttony as any other sin, yet gluttony is rampant in the church, and it’s
            completely ignored. Obesity and the diseases that accompany it are so prevalent
            that the church has just now decided that they need to talk about it.

            Many fundamentalists will say “sin
            is sin in the eyes of God,” and completely overlook their own sin as they sit
            down to a Denny’s Grand Slam breakfast with extra bacon, eggs over easy, salt
            for the hash browns and lots of syrup for those pancakes. And while you’re
            eating, don’t forget to insult your wait-staff for not getting your order right
            and then stiff him/her on the tip.

            Do you not know that your body is a
            temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You
            are not your own;

            You were bought at a price.
            Therefore honor God with your body.

            I Corinthians 6:19-20

            Be not among drunkards or among
            gluttonous eaters of meat, for the drunkard and the glutton will come to
            poverty, and slumber will clothe them with rags.

            Proverbs 23:20-21

            Remove far from me falsehood and
            lying; give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with the food that is
            needful for me,

            Proverbs 30:8

            Be not among drunkards or among
            gluttonous eaters of meat,

            Proverbs 23:20

            And put a knife to your throat if
            you are given to appetite.

            Proverbs 23:2

          • Davis

            First of all, Pharisees were Jewish. They were leaders in the Jewish synagouge and were corrupted. When you said, “Pharisees, aka Christians, aka Republicans” you’re making stereotypes. That’s like me saying all Muslims are terrorists, or all atheists are militants. You can’t make assumptions based off of a few examples that you have noticed.

            Second, you stated several Old Testaments Scriptures condemning eating of certain animals. Acts 11:9 ESV says, “What God has made clean, do not make common.” The passage is describing Peter having a vision from above of all animals being declared clean to eat.

            Third, in relation to your first paragraph you assume that I know nothing about the subject I am speaking on and that I’m unqualified to have this discussion. How do I know nothing about what I am talking about? How do you know whether or not I can have this discussion? The beautiful thing about the Bible is that it doesn’t take a Harvard graduate to understand. Anyone that God has opened their eyes can understand it.

            Fourth, the reason why so many societies since the dawn of time has practiced homosexuality is because that is the nature of the world. Two of the greatest societies ever (Greeks and Romans) had homosexuality running rampant throughout their territory. Does that mean it is right? No. That’s like saying the killing of little babies by throwing them into the Tiber was morally right just because the Romans did it.

            Fifth, you stated that ” what makes me go crazy is that the people who use the Bible to oppose homosexuality is that so many of them are fat.” Again, have you visited every church across the world and thus know the ratio of fat Christians to fit Christians who oppose homosexuality?

            This reply makes it seem that you have a very clear-cut view of what all Christians are: fat, hypocritical, homophobic, crazy, unqualified people.

          • Ben Tousey

            Right. Pharisees, aka Christians, aka Republicans. It’s safe to say that Sean Hannity is a Christian, and he has millions of viewers. Megyn Kelly also claims to be a Christian, and she speaks for millions of Christians. All Pharisees.
            The reason I can “assume” you know nothing about the subject is that you’ve not even touched on the subject. All you care about is what the bible says. You never mentioned biology, sociology, genetics… shows that you don’t understand it. If homosexuality is bad, then why is it still here after hundreds of thousands of years of evolution. If it was bad, Natural Selection would have removed it. But it’s still here, showing that it serves some evolutionary purpose.
            As to the way you misquoted Acts, again shows that you don’t even understand your bible. Nowhere in this passage does god lift the ban on clean and unclean food. He is using a “vision” which is a mode of symbolism to make a point to Peter… that he was to visit Gentiles… Period. Paul said your body is a temple, and if you destroy that body, god will destroy you. Certain foods are bad, and yet you eat them.
            I’m not assuming you know nothing about this subject. You’re telling me that you know nothing about this subject. You’re cherry-picking scriptures that you like to back up your bigotry, but you’re ignoring those scriptures that tell you it’s none of your business. Remember what Jesus said? Beam out of your own eye. Thou hypocrite… you know… like that. Misappropriating the story of Peter is another sign that you really having read your bible, let alone the scientific papers around this subject.
            Like I said, I fully support your deeply held religious bigotry. This is America where you’re allowed to be as bigoted as you want. But I will NOT defend your bigotry.

          • Davis

            How is the vision showing the animals come down from heaven tells Peter that he need to go to the Gentiles? It clearly says that Peter said back to God that “I have never eaten anything that is unclean.” Then, God responds saying, “What God has made clean, do not call common.” That is clear as day. All things are now clean before God.
            On the subject of evolution, how do you know about hundreds of thousands of years of it? That type of evolution can and never will be studied. It’s just impossible to observe it.
            Also, you said I cherry-picked Scriptures. May I remind you of your last reply to me, where you picked Scriptures that backed up your point?
            As to the reason you may think that I know so little about the Bible because I “don’t read” the scientific papers, all the science papers disagree with the Bible (unless it is a creation science paper).

          • FED UP WITH PC

            I don’t agree that Ben is sugar-coating anything. But he is very angry, and passive aggressive. And I agree with your general sentiment.

          • FED UP WITH PC

            Hold on now, lets not be a hypocrite. First, Christians AND non-Christians owned, bought and sold slaves. Remember, non-Christians sold their own people into slavery. Also, the Civil War was NOT fought to abolish slavery. In fact, abolition was merely a political consequence of the war. The Civil War was fought over states rights….money. Slavery was abolished over 100 years ago. Let’s drop it. We are all bored with it. It is OVER in this country. So stop already. You are kicking a dead horse. Ever known a slave? Ever owned one? I haven’t.

          • Ben Tousey

            Thus revealing how little you understand the subject you’re mouthing off about.
            You’re the reason that we can’t drop the subject, and you’re the reason that we can’t move past this. If you’re sick of hearing about this, then you’re the problem. Fix it, and then we CAN move on. The ball’s in your court. You want to get rid of all this talk about racism, stop being racist.

          • charles freeman

            Hey, wow, the UN agrees that gay marriage is a human right. Since when is the UN the arbiter on right and wrong? The UN is a toothless dog, yapping away with nothing to back it up. Right and wrong cannot be legislated no matter how often they seem to end up on ballots. It is those who realize they have no real identity of their own who depend on legislation to tell them what to do.

          • Ben Tousey

            If you get your “right and wrong” from a three-thousand-year-old book, you have nothing to say to1 me about morality. The fact that you can’t understand how morality works and that you feel the need to outsource your morality shows that you are not qualified to have this discussion.

          • charles freeman

            Man’s best efforts at establishing a moral structure without the guidance of God has landed us in the moral morass we find ourselves in now. The fact that you have relied on your own flawed logic to attempt to grasp morality displays YOUR lack of understanding. Depend on the UN for your “right and wrong,” who’s outsourcing now?

          • Ben Tousey

            As opposed to what? Relying on the flawed moral logic of a bunch of Bronze-aged misogynistic genocidal slave owners? Sorry dude, you’re morality is disgusting and vile. I don’t believe that woman are property, or that it’s okay to offer my daughters to be gang-raped, or that I can return eye-for-an-eye. I’ve ‘evolved.’ Society has evolved. What can’t you?
            As to your UN comment, the fact that you can’t wrap your head around an amalgamation of humanitarians from around the world, educated in sociology and political sciences (unlike your mostly illiterate bible writers) and deeply concerned about the plight of the human species: the fact that you can’t understand the difference between intelligent and thoughtful consideration being giving to how to treat each other, versus the paranoia of slave traders and child abusers shows just how morally corrupt you are.
            This “moral morass” you find yourself in is because you want to hold on to ideas that are fundamentally disgusting and harmful toward other humans. You dream of a world where women are property and men can own slaves. Humanity has moved past that.
            You have no idea what morality is, because you won’t bother to seek what is right. You outsource your morals to a bronze-age book written by profoundly flawed and highly partisan, uneducated men.

          • Iris Tedder

            HUH Ben?????

          • Ben Tousey

            I understand that you don’t understand Iris, it involves thought, and cognitive processes. But don’t worry, go back to your little bible study and you’ll hear all you want to hear.

          • YouHaveCatTobeKittenMeRightMeo

            Slavery is not ok. Christians are followers of Christ and Christ’s teachings, hence they are called ‘Christ-ians’. Not ‘Moses-ians’.

          • Ben Tousey

            It’s in YOUR bible. You can twist yourself into knots all you want, but it’s in your bible.

          • mark

            God’s “slavery” wasn’t comparable to european/early american slavery. They were servants working off a debt, and every 7th year were set free to return home with their families to their people. I love how people just think only in the terms they know. No research.

          • Ben Tousey

            I love how people who preach the bible never bother to read the freakin’ book. Talk about somebody who couldn’t be bothered to do his research. But that’s okay, Mark, because at least one of us has done his research. Hint: It ain’t you.

            However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46)

            If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.’ If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6)

            When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11)

            When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21)

            Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5)

            Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2)

            The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. “But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given.” (Luke 12:47-48)

            By the way, do you know what jesus thought of hypicroties? Hint: he kinda hated them. You might want to take note of that before you go around acting like you and Jesus are buds.

          • allktag

            Yes… so was interracial marriage, the majority thought it was completely unacceptable 100 years ago. 50 years ago, people said it was okay and it was. Somehow, the world kept turning.

            Torture used to be okay. People were okay with it. People then started realizing how inhumane it was. Popular opinion diminished. It’s not practiced (legally) anymore.

            Some things take time to realize are wrong. Slavery was widely accepted and practiced throughout human history. It took thousands of years for a strong enough movement to say “you can’t own another human being”.

            That’s how history works, that’s how it’s always worked. As time goes on, things get better. Things adapt and evolve. Things that are widely accepted now as okay will eventually be viewed as out of touch and outright wrong 50 years from now. Welcome to human history.

          • marko10010

            As is post birth abortion. 10years ago almost every person on this planet would have been sick at the concept of this and yet now it is starting to be legalised. The idea that if us humans make a decision to change society it is rigbt is preposterous. Yes of course we have made some good changes to this world but to say we as a majority dont make diplomatic mistakes is a ludicrous comment

          • Barbara Dorsey

            Some of this progress is truly sickening.

          • Ethan

            Know right? Women getting rights, and black people being able to live next to you. Disgusting. Hitler was taken from us too early.

          • Cake_or_Death

            Wait. Where/how is “Post Birth” Abortion starting to be legalized? Aside from capital punishment,of course (which, I suspect, is not what you are referring to).

          • holoh

            Africa is widely adopting more and more anti-homosexuality laws. So, in Africa, by your definition more anti-homosexuality is “things get(ting) better”?

            Your statement “Things that are widely accepted now as okay will eventually be viewed as out of touch and outright wrong 50 years from now” is moronic. By that rationale, “personal freedom” is “widely accepted”. Does that mean you advocate that it should be “wrong 50 years from now”?

            Please let me know if you want to continue this charade of making assertions that you know are untenable or if you want to continue being a hypocrite.

          • http://doverbeach.blogspot.com/ The Dover Beachcomber

            Phil B. was celebrating “marriage equality in 30 states and counting.” As enjoyable as that moment of gloating may have been for him, majority opinion or “winning” on the political plane (largely in the courts, through unelected judges) proves nothing on the moral plane, which is exactly where a discussion on a Christian news website should be taking place. Things do “adapt and evolve” in human history, as you say, but I disagree that “as time goes on, things get better.” As time goes on, things change; but not necessarily for the better.

          • phoomp

            Just like disappointing sales and earnings for Starbucks means nothing, right?

          • Gina

            no where in the Bible does it say anything about interracial marriage being bad, but I can show you many verses that say homosexuality is wrong and other sexual sins too.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            In fact, the fact that the Bible says everyone who ever lived, is now living, or ever will live is descended from Adam and Eve, and thence from the family of Noah, his wife, their sons and their wives, gives the lie to the evil idea of races and the supposed sin of interracial marriage. We are all one race–human–with varieties of ethnic and cultural differences.

            The only “races” that shouldn’t intermarry are people that are believers in Jesus with those who are unbelievers.

          • Iris Tedder

            That would have been easier for some on here to understand had it been worded that its best for one to marry a believer (EVENLY YOKED) thank an UNbeliever However it does say that if one does…they could easily lead them to believe and become a believer by their actions on how they live. More or less..

          • Guest

            Actually, Iris, what it says is that if a woman or man is married to an unbeliever (ie becomes a believer after they are married while their spouse does not), they should not divorce because of it. 1 Corinthians 7:12-13. Nowhere does it say that it’s advisable for believers to knowingly marry unbelievers. In fact, I believe Paul said it was his opinion (not a mandate from God) that it was better to just remain unmarried unless you couldn’t control your sexual urges.

          • Kelly Holmes Marconi

            The Bible also says eating shellfish is wrong. It also says women who speak inside the church are wrong. And what about all those women who sin by cutting their hair? If you’re going to selectively use Bible verses to discriminate but ignore the parts of it that are inconvenient then you’re a hypocrite plain and simple.

          • Iris Tedder

            OK Kelly…. Please Please…EDUCATE urself on the Bible..k? NOW From the day Jesus Christ was born… WE no longer live by Mosaic Law.(OLD TESTAMENT)..we use it as a reference to the NEW TESTAMENT that we NOW live by.k? That means..we are NOT under Bondage to those things u just listed that u said ‘WE” IGNORE..when its OK for us to ignore since we live under THE GRACE DISPENSATION. (CHRISTS BIRTH). SO calling us a Hypocrite is on you…NOT US. Being uneducated and calling names IMO is as SIMPLE AS ONE CAN GET. However..I do not hate you for it..or do I condemn u. Thats not my place to JUDGE anyone.

          • Andrea Kaye

            It’s actually Paul in the new testament that says women are not to speak in church and should pray with their hair covered….

          • Gina

            this has to do with order and structure in the church. The Corinthian church was chaotic and lacked order (verse 33).everyone in the church service was doing whatever, those with the gift of tongues were speaking simultaneously, those with a revelation from God were shouting out randomly, and no one was concerned with interpreting what was being said, even if what was said could be heard above the chaos. part of the problem in the church were women speaking in tongues and prophesying, these women were taking the lead in the services instead of being submissive to the authorities in the church ( Timothy 2: 11-15). Apparently, certain women in the Corinthian church were also out of order in disruptively asking questions during the already crazy services. God’s instruction through Paul is that the women should “keep silent in the churches” (1 Corinthians 14:34);
            this is not saying that women should be absolutely silent in the church all the time. It is only saying that women should not participate in the giving of prophecy, the speaking of tongues, or the interpreting of tongues in the general assembly. These are teaching functions in the church and are thus authoritative; such roles are reserved for men (1 Timothy 2:11-12). seriously, if you’re going to throw bible verses at a Christian, really study it and learn the context ,other wise you look foolish.

          • Darryl Andre

            “Otherwise you look foolish”? You
            are joking right? You think you look sane and reasonable following this hocus pocus? Oh Gina, poor Gina.

          • Michael_Woerner1963

            I love my God with all of my heart, and I am gay. God knew it before I was born. He has told me not to call unclean what He has called clean. (Acts 10:15) Romans 1:26-32 cannot be about gay relationships as we know them today because the scripture says that those who don’t want to keep God in their minds are turned over to a reprobate mind, and having unnatural passions. I knew I was gay before I even knew God. Rather than turning from God due to my orientation, I have been drawn to Him. He has not turned me away, but has assured me that I am His child, and that nothing can separate me from His love.

          • jankjdl

            <3 much love

          • Michael_Woerner1963

            Thanks! :-)

          • jayrea

            very well said, and in love!!!

          • David Boccabella

            Then Please Dump Leviticus as that is the one that is SO often used to denounce Gay people. And that is in the old Testament.

          • Gina

            what about
            Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another,men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error……… OR
            1 Corinthians 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,………Romans teaches specifically that homosexuality is a result of denying and disobeying God. When people continue in sin and unbelief, God “gives them over” to even more wicked and depraved sin in order to show them the hopelessness of life apart from God. Corinthians teaches that homosexual “offenders” will not inherit the kingdom of God. THAT’S NEW TESTAMENT! But All sin is offensive to God. homosexuality is just one of the many things listed in 1Corinthians that will keep a person from the kingdom of God. According to the Bible, God’s forgiveness is just as available to a homosexual as it is to an adulterer, idol worshiper, murderer, thief, etc. God also promises the strength for victory over sin, including homosexuality, to all those who will believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation (1 Corinthians 6:11;2 Corinthians 5:17;Philippians 4:13).

          • scott

            As a Gay man who is also a born again , Holy Spirit filled Christian I stand as living evidence that God blessed me with my partner Chuck. I was not given over to more sin. I am saved by the single act of Christ’s physical sacrifice and rebirth. I am a blessed Gay man! My focus is not on other’s sins, but on the divinity that dwells in each of them. I am not apart from God. I cannot be separated from God. I am called and saved according to His Word! My uniqueness is a divine blessing from God himself. The ridicule I receive from some in society only serves to make me more faithful. Patience, faith, hope are born from trial and hurdle. I know that a great many Christians are going to be surprised when they approach Heaven’s gate to see countless Gay Christians there to meet them. Gay Christians who neither denied nor disobeyed God, but surrendered their lives and invited God into their heart, mind, body, and spirit. I have surrendered my sexuality to God and he returned it with blessings, in the form of my partner. Do you remember a time when you surrendered YOUR sexuality?

          • Cindy

            So explain how you feel you can ignore what he has written about homosexuality? You feel you can just ignore what he has said and pick out the parts that you feel will make it all right. Even though…if you practice this lifestyle it goes against what he wants?

          • scott

            Cindy, God did not write a negative response to homosexuality, men did. I am not ignoring what the Holy Spirit speaks to me on a daily basis. While the Bible provides me with prior people’s interactions and interpretation of their relationship with Jesus it is not an absolute mandate ordered by God. The only direction God left us all as a body of believers is the Ten Commandments and to Love everyone.
            Being Gay is not a “lifestyle.” Just as being straight is not a lifestyle, or being Black or Being male, female, Jewish and so on. The Gay culture is assimilated to and within the cultural context of where they reside and call home.
            What God wants for me is to talk with him daily, surrendering my daily comings and goings to his wonderful will for my life. God wants to be in a loving relationship with me and mine. God uses people to express that love and caring he has for each of us. God wants me to aspire to a forgiving, loving, inclusive spirit and to put that spirit into my daily actions with those I meet.

          • Cindy

            Leviticus 18:22 – Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.

            Jude 1:7
            – Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner,
            giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh,
            are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

            Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
            Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor
            effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor
            covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit
            the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye
            are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and
            by the Spirit of our God.

          • Jayme Crandall

            I can ignore what was written about it because I, as an American, have the MOST FUNDAMENTAL right, to follow and practice MY OWN religion, free from discrimination and persecution. Unfortunately your ilk didnt get the message. Of course you can believe whatever you want, and SAY whatever you want, but what you cannot do, is make the government strip away my most fundamental right to religious freedom. What you are doing, in effect, is persecuting me based on my religion. My religion says i can marry a man if i want. You trying to make the government deny that runs counter to American values and the US Constitution.

          • Cindy

            Nor was I trying too. My point being for those of us who believe in the bible and what is written we have a right to speak out. All I am saying is what is written by the men God chose to do so. There is no way anyone should be forced to practice any form of belief based on another. What I don’t like and will not turn my head too is the fact that homosexuals’ want to take away my right to worship or to speak my beliefs. They have made their choice and fought to get their rights..but in doing so..they are trying to take religion out completely. Yes..that angers me. They got what they wanted..yet they still push for more and more. It is either their way or the highway. I am not judging anyone..it is not for me to do so. I just want to live my life my way…everyone else live theirs. Just stop trying to control me and my beliefs because it is not for you. He speaks against it. I stand by his words he has written. Do I have the right to force that on anyone? No.
            It is not being forced on me it is my choice. I am thankful that for now…I have the freedom to do so. The way things are going…I won’t have that freedom for long.

          • jankjdl

            So glad you found love <3 everyone deserves love

          • http://doverbeach.blogspot.com/ The Dover Beachcomber

            Scott, I’m afraid you may not have thought this through completely. You claim that God created you with same-sex attraction, and that therefore acting in accord with it (i.e.,taking a gay lover) is perfectly justifiable in His eyes. First, recognize that no one has yet definitively proved the existence of a “gay gene”, and so we can’t really be sure that God willed you to have same-sex attraction through your genetics. But even granting you that point, what happens when you apply your proposed ethical rule to other characteristics you might have been born with? Suppose that you had been born with near-sightedness. Would it make any sense for you to respond to that by refusing to correct it through glasses, contact lenses, etc.? Would it make any sense to deny that others see better than you, in that they could focus clearly on objects far away in addition to objects close up, and that your own life would be more complete if you too could see faraway objects? To take a more dire set of circumstances: suppose that instead of being born with nearsightedness, you had been born with impulses toward violence that you could not control? Would you be right to demand that everyone else redefine civilized behavior to include the assaults you might commit? No, of course you wouldn’t. And so it is with SSA: the fact that you have the inclination, whether genetically determined or otherwise, says nothing about the morality of acting on it — or what others may think about it.

          • scott

            Dover, near-sightedness is corrected with glasses, contact lenses..etc. Gay sexual indiscretions are corrected by the right to marry. Just as heterosexuals are directed to engage sexually after marriage, rather than before it. So too, Gays now have an option to marry and be in a committed, loving relationship prior to sexual activity. Without the right to marry, Gays are deliberately restrained from abiding by sexual best practices.

            Dover, can you clarify which genes predetermine ‘violent’ tendencies? Being born Gay is not a disability or considered to be on the Special Needs Psychological spectrum.

            Several genomic studies have suggested regions that might influence sexual orientation, but they have relied on small numbers of participants and have been challenged repeatedly. In 1993, Hamer, then at the U.S. National Institutes of Health (NIH) in Bethesda, Maryland, published the first of these studies, suggesting that a specific stretch of the X chromosome called Xq28 holds a gene or genes that predispose a man to being gay.

            The finding made some evolutionary sense. An X-linked gene for homosexuality has long been proposed as a way to explain how the trait persists in the population even though gay men tend to have fewer offspring: The gene could increase fertility in females, who would have two “chances” to inherit it.
            While there is not conclusive scientific replication as of yet, the ongoing future studies look promising. Revisiting your analogy of in born genetic “violent” behavior. Gays are not a violent threat to individuals or society at large. As a matter of fact there is national factual evidence that shows Gay community events, parades, street fairs and the like have the fewest police incident reports when compared to other heterosexual public gatherings.. Gay neighborhoods are being populated by more and more newly wed heterosexual couples with children. When asked why they chose to live in or near these Gay neighborhoods they responded that is was safer and far less violent.
            The morality of Gay life is comparable to the morality of heterosexual life. We both do well to follow the Biblical teachings of love, caring and understanding of others. It would seem that the Gay community is having a better run at following the biblical guidelines than their heterosexual counterparts who bully, belittle, segregate, deny civil rights and prejudice themselves against.
            As a Gay Christian, who has been baptized in both water and the Holy Spirit, and share the same Heavenly Father. Our Heavenly Father continues to speak to my heart with love and compassion coupled with understanding and patience, in regard to those who are prejudice against me and mine. The simple fact remains, Gays have no bearing on your Christian standing or salvation. Gays are not a physical or violent threat to society, at large. Gays are born to heterosexual parents. We are not choosing a life that threatens to kill us, hang us, jail us, put us in front of possible firing squads and continually defend ourselves and our existence to those who use our mutual Heavenly Father as a hammer to beat us with. We are here! We are not going anywhere! We are intrical
            ju

          • Cindy

            THANK YOU The Dover Beachcomber!!! You just spoke my thoughts.

          • Shari Peterson

            Does this imply you could live as a same sex gay person for a month including having same sex, sex? If it’s just a choice you should be able to flip that switch and immediately be attracted to your same sex, right?

          • Guest

            I would like to add a slightly different angle to what you have to say, Beachcomber. Scott says he’s a born again Christian. As such, surely he recognizes that scripture says that we are all…every one of us…born with a sinful nature. It’s part of our ‘spiritual DNA’, so to speak, passed down to us from Adam, to rebel against God’s laws and please ourselves and it affects every aspect of our being. Following the same reasoning that Scott uses that since we are born that way, God must intend for us to be that way and we should therefore embrace our ‘birth nature’ and live our lives guided by it, it would then follow that we should all embrace our sinful nature and sin as much as we want. After all, if God made us this way, how could He possibly judge us or condemn us for it? The problem is, that even though scripture makes it clear that we are all born with a sinful nature, it does not excuse us for our sin even though it IS our nature. As Paul wrote, “what, then, should we sin the more that grace might abound? God forbid!” In fact, we are called to resist that sin nature with everything that is in us and seek forgiveness when we fail. It is precisely BECAUSE of our inherited sin nature that Jesus needed to die on the cross to pay the price for that sin once and for all and make it possible for us to receive forgiveness.

          • jayrea

            yes, i’m a 47 year old virgin because i will not fornicate because it’s a sin.

          • Roc E

            Great, as soon as you idiots start wanting to ban divorcee’s from being serviced by other “Christians” I will take you seriously. You people just cherry pick whatever BS from your book of lies that supports your argument of the moment while skipping whatever doesn’t. All American Taliban are a threat to the world and need to be dealt with in the same manner we are dealing with ISIS and other religious extremists!

          • Guest

            Pretty sure that same baker would decline to make a cake that said, ‘So glad I’m divorced!”

          • jankjdl

            let that who is without sin cast the first stone. We are all sinners. It is not your job to judge only God. You speak blasphemy by trying to take his job. Love your neighbor especially you enemy. Do you think Jesus would turn his back on anyone? No, he didn’t even turn his back on judas who casted him out or the men that beat him. Christianity is supposed to be about love, understanding and forgiveness…

          • Guest

            You know…it’s interesting that you mention what would Jesus do. Jesus encountered a lot of sinners and while He practiced forgiveness, never once did He excuse or condone their sin. In fact, in nearly every encounter, He said ‘go and sin no more’. In every encounter, those sinners where changed and left Jesus with a desire to live differently. Forgiveness does not mean one has to accept or excuse that which is wrong nor does it mean one must condone it.

          • scott

            The true sin is allowing what others say to diminish the wonderful gifts God has given you. I know in my heart that God is with me. I have met my partner of 7 years as a result of prayer. We have a wonderful home, and life together. Your position as a fellow Christian is to not judge, but love those around you. God is the final judge and jury. If we were to conduct a ‘candid camera’ of your life…would we find it sinless? Would we find you without fault? Are your tax returns completely truthful? Have you fantasized about sexual relations with someone else before marriage? How many times have you been married? Were you a virgin prior to marriage. Do you wear makeup? Do you tithe 10% of all of your income? The mirror is a wonderful place to visit each time you want to pass judgment on another.

          • Guest

            If Jesus were to return today, would He say to you, ‘Yes, I know you’? Or would He say, ‘Away from me, I never knew you’? Everything else…the wonderful home, etc…is not what saves you. Is your first priority RELATIONSHIP with Jesus or your partner/orientation? BTW…when I sin, I confess it to God, ask for forgiveness with a desire in my heart to change and turn away from it and know that He is faithful to do so. I don’t stomp my feet and insist that what I do isn’t sin and everyone should accept it.

          • jayrea

            I’m so glad you have a relationship with God and I believe you have a genuine relationship with Him. (please don’t read that sarcastically…lol) It’s true, we all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. We all have sins that we deal with periodically or sometimes daily. But with every temptation He gives us a way of escape. He gives us the strength to resist temptation. Also, if you fall into temptation, we confess our sin and ask for forgiveness and God is faithful to forgive. Christ came, died and rose again so that we wouldn’t have to remain in our sins. yes, it’s a daily struggle which is why we have to die to flesh daily. we have to deny our fleshy temptations to lie, cheat, fornicate, gossip, etc. on the daily. So yes, everyone has a struggle but we can’t let the struggle overtake us and just live in our sins without seeking to repent (to denounce our sins and turn away from them)…even daily.

          • jayrea

            did you know when you choose to support something it’s also judging? whether you’re for it or against it (“it” meaning anything, not limited to gay-marriage) you’re judging it. the bible says that we should judge righteously. the bible is for judging (righteously), correcting and encouragement. we judge the sin but not the sinner. we can’t condemn anyone to hell or tell them that God does not love them because of their sins. but we can identify a sin so that it can be corrected within the Body of Christ. please don’t look at this as anything other than spoken in love. i’m not trying to argue with you. Christianity is all about love, there are some Christians who are extreme and immature in their beliefs and try to force their beliefs onto non-believers but the majority of Christians are not that way. now, if you ask a Christian if they believe homosexuality is a sin, most will answer “yes”, but that shouldn’t be taken as judging or condemning or being hateful towards homosexual people.

          • Ethan

            Where are the people protesting divorce? Idol worshiping, where are the protestors at concerts where people essentially worship musicians?

            So you mean to say, god teaches sinners to not sin… By tormenting them.. How does that work here on earth with bullying at schools? Suicide?

            I know many religious gay people. They are pretty damn happy, until people like you start this shit. So they didn’t get their strength through god, but rather being who they are, and loving themselves.

            Lastly, sexual imorals include having sex for pleasure. So unless you only have sex to have a child, which if you have one you’ve had sex several times to try to have one, you’re going to the same place you think the gays are going.

          • Nelia Jarquio

            I agree with you Gina, you said so what is being said in the bible. To every one we all knew that God loves sinner but hate the sin doing. Salvation is for everyone who believe in Jesus and letting the sovereign Lord reign in their life. Accepting the inspired word of God is truth that will set us free. All sin is offensive to God. God hates sin and always reminding us He gives us victory over sin and death through our Lord Jesus Christ.

          • rob2uk

            For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

            – Matthew 5:18

          • jimcracky

            So you’re keeping all the Old Testament Laws? Tell me you are, or don’t quote this passage.

          • Gina

            exactly!! THANK YOU!

          • rob2uk

            I’m not a Christian, I was just pointing out that the old covenant, as far as Jesus Christ was concerned, is still in effect.

          • Gina

            Iris, I couldn’t have said it better, thank you!

          • Pip

            So where in the New Testament does it mention equal marriage?

          • Gillian Cameron

            Where does Jesus. Not Paul, Jesus, condemn homosexuality?

          • Last Hussar

            Where does it mention Australia? Were there kangaroos on the ark?

          • Cindy

            Thank you Iris Tedder. This is what is wrong with even religious people today. They want to pick and choose what suits them. That is not what it is about. It is about what Christ would have us do. Thank you so much for bringing that to light.

          • Carbonman1950

            Ms. Tedder – That is true. The problem is that in policy debates the overwhelming majority of self-described Christians constantly appeal to the Mosaic Law as the basis for public policy proposals. IMO this completely undermines any claim they may make that they are Christian.

          • Roc E

            Ok Iris, perhaps you should take your own advise. Jesus said ZERO, NADA, ZIP about homosexuality. You American Taliban are too stupid to even know much about your own book of fairy tales. Time to round you up with ISIS and eliminate the threat

          • Guest

            Jesus didn’t say anything about child abuse, elder abuse, slavery, and a whole lot of other subjects. Guess that means those things should be okay, too, since Jesus didn’t mention them specifically?

          • Gillian Cameron

            Jesus DID say to forgive and not to judge.

          • Guest

            True, but stating what you believe the Bible to teach on a given subject is neither unforgiveness nor judgment. And Jesus did not say not to judge. He said to be careful how we judged because the same measure we used to Judge could be used against us. In fact, Jesus said to ‘stop judging by outward appearances and make a correct judgment’. That said, you might spend some time looking at what the original words for ‘judge’ were in those texts. You might find it enlightening.

          • James Whistler

            “Jesus didn’t say anything about child abuse, elder abuse, slavery,
            pedophilia and a whole lot of other subjects. Guess that means those
            things should be okay, too, since Jesus didn’t mention them
            specifically?”

            That’s a good question. I would guess that Jesus did not think that child abuse or slavery were wrong.

          • Guest

            My point went whistling right over your head, didn’t it?

          • James Whistler

            Anonymous Guests mocks, “My point went whistling right over your head, didn’t it?”

            What do other readers think?

          • Jayme Crandall

            You compare elder abuse, child abuse and slavery to two adults lovingly entering into a secular contract? What is wrong with your addled brain?

          • Guest

            I wasn’t comparing anything; simply pointing out to the person that stated Jesus didn’t address the issue as means of trying to prove that Jesus was okay with said relationship that Jesus also didn’t adress those issues and by the same reasoning was also okay with those. What’s wrong with YOUR addled brain?

          • Cindy

            Because it has now become a prelude to just that. The UK and other countries are wanting to give children and I emphasize CHILDREN permission to engage in at age 11! There is nothing wrong with that????

          • Shebon

            to me that screams that they just want to “legalize” pedophilia and child porn. SICK.

          • Last Hussar

            “For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.”

            Matthew 5:18

            If you are NOT living by Mosaic law then you are not living how Jesus wants you to live.

            So make your mind up – if you say “Jesus” means that you can eat pork and shellfish then ‘Jesus’ also means its OK to be gay. If you say Jesus overthrew that whole ‘pork’ thing why do you get to pick and choose. Tattoos – banned in Leviticus, Perhaps Republican Senators should note “the foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born” (Lev 19:33-34)

            Mixed fibres in fabric – no, not allowed.

            All law in the New Testament is based on the Old Testament, because the people handing down were Jews.

          • Guest

            What do you think Jesus meant when dying on the cross he said, ‘it is finished (the word finished also means accomplished)’? In the Greek texts, the word is Tetelestai, which means ‘paid in full’ in relation to a debt or bill. On the other hand, the sanction against homosexuality is repeated in the New Testament again. Paul taught on the subject with clarity indicating that while we are no longer under the law, but under grace, the law still reminds us and teaches us what sin is while grace provides for forgiveness when we sin and repent of that sin. That is not to say that we are free to sin as much as we want or that sin has been redefined. You confuse dietary restrictions that resulted in ‘uncleanness’ with sin…different things when you look at the Hebrew words used.

          • Last Hussar

            Paul wasn’t Jesus. Jesus never mentions homosexuality. However you say he meant ‘it is finished’. Except Paul is allowed to reopen the old testament ?

            You quote Greek. Not actually the language of Roman Occupied Israel. You are quoting something carried by oral tradition, translated, more oral tradition the gospels date from between 30-300 years after the supposed events,, translated, translated again to Greek, Translated to Latin, subject to interpretation at various meetings to decide what is correct, for events which historical record has been found. (Before you quote Josephus, he wasn’t born until about the time of events, or even possibly slightly after, and here refers to Christians, not Christ. Same with other ‘witnesses)

            You are picking and choosing interpretation to support your personal morals. ‘I don’t find this objectional, so Jesus said this, but I don’t like that, so its obvious this part of the bible must be correct.’

          • heliocracy

            Except the prohibition against homosexuality is in Leviticus, which is (gasp!) in the Old Testament.

          • Austin Harrison

            The book of Matt…off the top of my head I believe it is Chapter 5 verse 6…States that you should NOT pray as the hypocrites pray inside temple and in public view…therefor every time a Christian says I will pray for you or attends church they are disobeying CHRIST…

          • Eugene Keeping

            No, you just changed the book to fit your needs. It evolved to fit society.

          • Guest

            The difference, Kelly, is that nobody is insisting that those things listed as sin in the Bible aren’t sin, although as usual all those things you list are taken out of context and interpreted incorrectly. Eating shellfish was a dietary restriction, not a sin, and those dietary restrictions were removed in the New Testament under the new covenent. Same thing with cutting of hair: not stated as a sin. Women speaking in church is also not a sin, but a matter of order (stop shouting your questions across the church to your husband and disrupting the service, ladies!), if you actually understood the cultural context Paul was addressing in that situation.

          • Zach T

            Wow. Wait. That’s simply not true. Eating shellfish is called UNCLEAN, meaning that it is dirty or detestable. It makes you unclean to do something unclean. That is the nature of the word. Meanwhile, the best translation for the word often turned into abomination is actually the word tapu, translated as taboo. It is not unclean to do something taboo, simply frowned upon. It is a societal sin, nothing to do with god. Nice try, but you’re wrong. According to the bible, homosexuality is less a sin than eating shellfish.

          • Guest

            ‘Unclean’ is different than ‘sin’. They are two totally different words in Hebrew. The Hebrew word for ‘unclean’ is ‘Tame’. The Hebrew word for ‘Sin’ is ‘Chata’. The two do not even have a common root so they clearly mean different things and have different implications. Additionally, most Biblical scholars believe that the Old Testament dietary restrictions were removed when God confronted Peter in a vision, telling him to ‘rise, kill and eat’ a selection of animals previously considered ‘unclean’ and then telling him, ‘do not consider unclean that which I have made clean’.

          • Roc E

            What a joke, so either your fairy tale invisible friend in the sky had change of mind, or realized she made a mistake or decided that morality is a matter or opinion. Either way it just proves that it is all man made rubbish. The mental midgets who continue to look to this bronze age fairy tale have no clue about the men who wrote the books that are currently included in the bible, much less all of the men who translated them, nor who or why the literally thousands of other texts that were once considered Cannon were abandoned. Yet you all just assume that the book so chalk full of contridictions and ignorance must be divine. Being born ignorant isn’t your fault. Choosing to remain so IS!

          • Guest

            Circumstances changed. The old covenant was replaced with the new covenant when Jesus fulfilled the old. We are no longer under the law, such as dietary, hygiene and clothing restrictions, but under grace. As for the rest, it’s not my job to convince you of anything and you are free to believe whatever you wish.

          • jsb

            Actually you can’t show ANY verses in the Bible with the word homosexuality. And FYI: GOD didn’t write the Bible.

          • FED UP WITH PC

            You are correct, it does not use the term “homosexuality”. It merely refers to homosexuality by saying “a man shall not lay down with another man”.

          • jsb

            Again, GOD did not write the Bible. It’s a collection of stories assembled by ordinary men and it is their interpretation of these random stories. The Ten Commandments is more directly the word of GOD and those are the guidelines Christian needs to follow. I do believe in GOD, but I do not believe stories such as Noah’s Ark and 40 days and 40 nights of rains flooding the Earth, or fire and brimstone hailing down destroying a city for sinning.

          • Gina

            AGAIN, the Bible was written by holy men who were inspired by the Holy Spirit. you say you believe in God, well that’s good but so does satan, but it doesn’t mean he’s saved anymore than you.

          • Zach T

            No it doesn’t. Modern translations might, but they’re not true to the original text. That word didn’t exist until the 19th century, the Greeks and Hebrews didn’t have a word even remotely similar.

          • Guest

            Romans 1:27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

          • Gina

            can’t get any clearer than that.

          • Gina

            men wrote while being inspired by the Holy Spirit and I gave verses already, go check.

          • Stacey J. Weinberger

            Please tell me where in the Bible it even mentions marriage.

          • FED UP WITH PC

            First, try Corinthians. There are many other references as well.

          • Guest

            Let’s see…the marriage feast of the lamb, the marriage feast where Jesus turned wine into water, the discussion of Moses permitting divorce followed by Jesus declaring, ‘What God has joined together, let not man put apart’. I could go on, but that’s enough to get you started.

          • Gina

            In Genesis chapter 2, God declares it is not good for Adam (the first man) to live alone.
            therefore, in a special act of creation God makes a woman. Just a few verses later, the woman is called “his wife” (Genesis 2:25). Eden was the scene of the first marriage, ordained by God Himself. The author of Genesis then records the standard by which all future marriages are defined: “A man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh” (Genesis 2:24).

          • herdzcatz

            Agreed about interracial marriage. Both Moses and Solomon married black women.

          • David Boccabella

            Hmm.. I am sure that I can make something out of “Cloths of Different Threads” while preaching that Marriage is the Fabric of Society and we are but the threads that bind it.
            See – Anyone can take a phrase from the Bible and use it for a purpose.

          • Zach T

            I’m gonna say people are the fabric of society, considering that without them, society wouldn’t exist. So, no. still wrong.

          • Giggle Snork

            While were at it let outlaw all second marriages and divorce. Unless you are widow or widower

          • Clive Johnson

            The Bible also claims any number of things about the natural world that are incorrect. At some point human intelligence must come into play and make judgments about what is correct in the Bible and what is not. The same is true for ethics.

          • davidadjmi

            It also says to put adulterers to death. When you legislate for that to happen and all the adulterers are stoned to death, I’ll marry a girl. Until then: SUCK ITTTTTTTTT!

          • Guest

            So you like the idea of Sharia law? Interesting….

          • scott

            gina…LOLOL….you may want to research God’s direction when it comes to Jews and Gentiles tying the knot. The versus you refer to in the biblical text, with regard to “homosexuals” are translation gaps. Study the biblical history and it’s translation history. Look to the who, what, when, where, why and how of the bible’s history within the context of human engagement. I find it interesting, being a Gay Christian that the same Heavenly Father would tell you he hates me and tell me he loves me?

          • Michael_Woerner1963

            Since the word “homosexual” is only 100 years old or so, that word cannot be in the Bible. read the scriptures for yourself, rather than what you were taught to believe they meant.

          • Young

            Only six verses refer to the homosexual issue, none in the Gospels, none that refer to a committed relationship. What IS true, is that homosexual behavior makes the rest of us uncomfortable, so it must be bad!

          • heliocracy

            Can you show me one from the New Testament? Because you all have been pretty clear in other contexts that the OT is no longer in force…except the part about gays. You’re sinning by wearing clothing made of two different fabrics. You can’t pick and choose, and you have no right to tell other people how to live, or force them to conform to your childish fairy tales.

          • MedfordMan

            You will find none in which Jesus condemns homosexuals. None.

          • Nam Marine

            Obviously you don’t actually “read” the Bible. Somewhere in that
            Book (you find it) It says that we should “Stay” within our own race.

          • Iris Tedder

            In case u have had ur head stuck in the sand…have u been keeping up with all the RACIST/RACISM going on ? PLUS torture is still on a rampage (ISIS/HAMAS/CAIR/ ETC)…NOT to mention…children being SOLD AS SEX SLAVES?? WHERE HAVE U BEEN???? GET A GRIP AND out of bed …read some thing.k?
            Nothing of what u said is valid…except for the fact none of us want any of this if ur a decent human being. However using this invalid garbage is NO argument or testimony for SAME SEX MARRIAGES. WOULD WE EVEN BE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION HAD UR OWN MOTHER BEEN GAY??????

          • Barbara Dorsey

            Polygamy get in the bullpen and warm up.

          • David Boccabella

            Well – a while back it was thought that a colored person could never be a Christian in the same sense that a White person was a Christian. And the bible was used to declare that interracial marriages was against God’s will.
            To be Theologically correct the price for a wife is about 2 goats an a sheep is it not?

          • http://doverbeach.blogspot.com/ The Dover Beachcomber

            Just make up your mind, David. Is morality set by popularity, or is it based on objective truth? Is so-called gay marriage now an indisputable moral good because it enjoys popularity? If so, then interracial marriage was wrong when it was unpopular, but became right when it gained popular support. Doesn’t make sense, does it? But don’t worry: you and your friends will soon be able to marry those Biblical goats you ignorantly brought up, so there’s hope for your romantic ambitions.

          • 19mr85

            Wasn’t it 50 years ago that it wasn’t legal to marry someone that was of a different ethnic background?

          • Aaron S

            Hate to break it to you, but Christianity has worked the same way for hundreds of years. Morality evolves over time based on our culture and understanding of society in general. We wouldn’t have so many different Christian sects these days if people hadn’t challenged the supposedly absolute morality presented in the Bible. Regardless, though, it’s not the place of the US government to promote religious morality, but to establish a social order based on equal rights. It is up to the individual religions to promote their own brand of morality, and they have every right to do so because the government protects that right. The government is not there to enforce one religious view over another, though.

          • Tyler

            Your god is a lie

          • http://doverbeach.blogspot.com/ The Dover Beachcomber

            Prove it.

          • Tyler

            Prove he exists. I love how you blindly follow this benevolent god who is responsible for mass murder, hunger, famine, war and burning his “children” in hell for all of eternity because they don’t choose to follow a book that was written by man supposedly telling the story of a dead beat dad who hasn’t been in anyone’s life since 2000 years ago, allegedly. How loving this spaghetti monster is

          • http://doverbeach.blogspot.com/ The Dover Beachcomber

            C’mon, Tyler, man up and at least try to do what generations of atheists before you have done. And as you do so, please present ALL the evidence. In addition to the evil committed by Christians in the name of God, please also mention all the good done by other Christians, also in the name of that same God. Things like preserving Greek and Roman culture after the Roman empire’s fall; organizing and delivering care for the poor and sick on an unprecedented scale, and basing it on the dignity of every person; laying the foundations of the modern university, which had never existed in the secular ancient world, and rose and grew nowhere else in the world at the time; and in our own time, aiding tens of thousands of Jews to evade death at the hands of the Gestapo, while enlightened opinion in the U. S. was dismissing accounts of the death camps as propaganda. So there’s the challenge: accounting fairly for all the historical record, prove that there is no God—or admit that you have no logical basis for your insulting vitriol, just an abundant supply of hatred and prejudice.

          • Tyler

            Maybe you want to try a little reading comprehension? When did I ever say anything about christians? I was talking about your God, not his followers. Let’s not even get into the atrocities that they’ve done. I find it funny though that you’re commenting about all the good christians have done on a post that does nothing but preach hate. Next time you want to comment on something, maybe you actually make sure you understand what the comment says, mmk? Thanks

          • phoomp

            You realize that “tell if a thing is good or bad by taking a vote” is exactly the point that the Corporate Morality Action Center is trying to make when saying that sales and earning performance were disappointing after Starbucks stated it’s position on same-sex marriage?

          • Karenc2002

            If I recall correctly, 60+ years age, civil rights for blacks was voted on so that the states could keep them under their thumbs by using “Jim Crow” laws. It took the Supreme Court to over rule those laws and to allow the blacks the same civil rights as whites. Your case against Gay Marriage has no merit in this court.

          • Gregg Powers

            yeah well the same happened in Sodom and Gomorrah before it was destroyed….

          • Gina

            I read the back of the book ( the Bible) and we win, j/s :)

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            Doesn’t matter how many states approve gay marriage, sir. God says marriage is to unite one man and one women. He is the Creator of marriage. Man’s opinion is irrelevant and, worse, wrong when it goes against God’s Word. “Let God be true, and every man a liar.”

          • Sam

            Actually, Stephen, scripture is filled with references to polygamy, not references to the sancity of marriage between one man and one woman.
            But, all that aside, it is curious that people who worry about gay marriage destroying the institution, have not been more vocal about divorce and out of marriage births. Given that only a small percentage of the population is gay, and only a certain percentage of that small group will get gay married, it would seem that, if you’re really concerned about the stability of marriage, you’d be talking about the damage done to the institution by heterosexuals.

          • YouHaveCatTobeKittenMeRightMeo

            Christians are followers of Christ and teachings of Christ, not Moses. Jesus teaching on marriage is a union between a man and a woman.

          • Iris Tedder

            Why is it if a Christian disagrees we are either RACIST or RAGING? But if a Muzlim beheads someone /one of our own….NOTHING??? We aren’t Losing Phil….NOT BY A LONG SHOT. GAY MARRIAGES ARE NOT EQUAL…ASk ur mom. After all had she been gay..U WOULDN’T BE HERE NOW WOULD U?

          • mark

            Actually some Christians may feel like they are losing, but they are not. There is a separation of church and state, that makes it legal and okay for christians to not recognize a perfectly state legal marriage, no matter if all 50 states legalize it, the Church is not subject to the state for it’s beliefs and vice versa. So please feel free to go marry a dude, just don’t go crying pulling the victim card because a christian institution won’t perform the wedding, it is their right not to.

          • Guest

            Didn’t realize this was a contest. Thanks for clearing that up. In that respect, though, ever her the axiom ‘win the battle, but lose the war’? I read the end of the book. Some of y’all aren’t ‘winning’ as much as you think you are.

          • Barbara Dorsey

            Phil you are right, it is a done deal. Now if we can sell this idea to the Muslims we’d be getting somewhere…

          • Janet Treadway

            Doesn’t make it right.

          • batcountry1

            Don’t worry someday all of America will join Argentina, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Denmark, France, Iceland, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, the UK, and Uruguay (and Finland soon) in the 21st century.

          • Gabriela Estela Rosales

            Yes!

          • Frank W Brown

            The Supreme Court may have something to say about that SOON!

          • Nam Marine

            People like you will enjoy the “Lake of Fire” !

          • Al1963

            There is supposed to be a separation of church and state, so it really doesn’t matter at all what your religious beliefs are. If you don’t like guy marriage, don’t get gas married. It’s that simple. Our country made a point to make sure no one religion dictated the rules. Get over it and read some more fairy tales out of the bible.

          • http://192.168.0.1/ Kyle Stephens

            I’m not against gay marriage per se. It’s the dang benefits they get. After all, if gay couples get extra benefits simply for being gay, why can’t straight couples ALSO get benefits? The hypocrisy is beyond my threshold of tolerance for libt*rds.

          • Droppo

            Let Christ take care of their sins then. You can just try to live a better life of your own and stop trying to control others. Or don’t you think God is capable of taking care of things on his own without your special help discriminating against gays?

          • Alex Melia

            There are so many other sins for you to have a go against, why fixate on homosexuality? Is that because of guilt? A lot of homophobes are closeted gays fighting their own inner (hypocritical) turmoils.

          • Cletus Nde

            That’s why the writers of the constitution where smarter. It included all……irrespective of belief. Strange some people forget this fact. You can belief what you want. Gays have rights too under the constitution.
            Very soon we will start executing the developmentally disabled, the depressed, rapists, free loaders, …..what’s nex?….this how Hitler started… pure breed……hypocrisy. …..

          • jimcracky

            Again, your reasonin suggests that a Christian business should hever provide a service for any non-Christian because it is the leaving them in the “sin” of their theological error. If they provide a cake for a Buddhist wedding, is that not leaving them in their “sin” of not believing in Christ? There is no difference. Plus, businesses are no private citizens, they are legally “public accomodations” which are required, by law, to serve the public with discriminating against any group based on gender, religion, racial or ethnic minority, or in some places, sexual orientation or gender identity. They don’t have the legal option to refuse service to those groups. In a public accomodation, a Muslim can’t refuse to serve a Jew or a Christian and a Christian can’t refuse to serve gays. They don’t have to like, they just have to obey the law.

          • jimcracky

            You do realize that everything you just said was exactly what was said about interracial marriage 50 years ago, right?

          • Carbonman1950

            @Beachcomber… Christ came to LEAD them from their sins. Not FORCE them from their sins with the power of the Roman government. Christ also accepted and kept company with the very people the religious authorities of his time rejected as “ungodly” and rejected the people who placed anything above or before love of their fellow man.

            One does not “love and serve” God or humanity by arrogantly and blasphemously claiming that they are the one and only person or group of people who get to decide what matters to God or what is or is not part of “the perfection of God’s design”.

            I am perfectly at peace with the notion that institutions set up to be exclusively religious institutions will and may refuse to perform services that conflict with their religious principles, but once any institution or person enters the world of commerce their religious views are without effect.

            No one forced them to enter the world of commerce and if the requirements of commerce offend their religious convictions, they are at perfect liberty to leave the world of commerce.

            Christianists want to have it both ways. They want the benefits of being in business or being a corporation and avoid the obligations.

            If people can’t stand the heat, they are free to get out of the kitchen.

          • Aaron S

            Acceptance is not approval. Christians really need to learn the difference. Nobody is challenging your morality by asking you to coexist with people with don’t share your views. Feel free to be straight all you want, but it’s not your place to judge or force that on others.

          • disqus_dJdwEgkVnr

            I am a bit rusty on my Bible studies. But can you point to a parable when Jesus Christ condemned homosexuality? I can only find references in the Old Testament, which allowed for public stonings of people who we thought were “immoral,” not in the New Covenant where Christ stood up against that type of behavior.

          • LeftleaningTx

            What you don’t get is that we don’t seek your approval.
            But regardless, you MUST follow our Civil rights laws or else.

          • http://doverbeach.blogspot.com/ The Dover Beachcomber

            Well, yes, I think you do seek approval. To demand that others must suspend their moral judgment and honor your choices—when you actively look for people who won’t, so you can attack them, drive them out of business, bully them through social media, and impoverish them with lawsuits—that indicates that you’re very insecure about your position indeed. You can’t stand to have someone politely decline to serve you; you can’t even stand disapproval. You’ve got to force everyone to submit, to smile and approve of your redefinition of marriage, “or else” you’ll bring the coercion of the state to punish them. You may yet win. But the resistance to your tyranny will never stop, and the end result may be far less favorable than the situation you now seem to enjoy.

          • LeftleaningTx

            Then you are sadly mistaken.
            I don’t care about your moral judgements.
            What i do care about are our Civil rights Law of 1964 specifically the “accommodations” clause that states plainly and simply that if you are open the public you must serve ALL of the pubic and are not allowed to discriminate even for religious reasons.
            If you don’t want to serve EVERYONE then you do have a choice, Don’t open a business because if you do then you MUST follow our laws including the 14th Amendment.
            I am not forcing anyone, those are our laws and if you don’t like them then don’t operate a business, it’s very simple.
            “We may yet win” wow how stupid are you?
            WE HAVE WON not only legally but socially as well.
            Your threats will get you nowhere and you are correct I am enjoying my freedom very much, thank you!!

          • http://doverbeach.blogspot.com/ The Dover Beachcomber

            “Or else?” You write like Goebbels. No wonder, really; gay-rights militants are the stormtroopers of our times. Well, do your worst. But while you’re at work suppressing your opponents with the bludgeon of the law, try a little harder to proofread your comments before you post them. Considering the sexual nature of your cause, your phrase “you must serve ALL of the pubic” was quite the Freudian slip.

          • John Levy

            OR ELSE you will be breaking law and will suffer the penalties attached to breakin the law. I would think that would be quite obvious, even to a conservative.

            You will find that “gay stormtrooper” come in every shade, shape and size but almost always vibrate on a higher intellectual level than most conservatives and certainly most all of the religious reich who lives are dictated by stone age text and relics.

            Case in point. Because you are no longer allowed legally allowed to abuse other people rights, you consider that “suppression” This is intellectually dishonest on its face which is a trademark of the religious reich.

            For a conservative every law from the SCOTUS, that they like is just fine but then out of the same mouth, any law that they don’t like is “legislating from the bench” so now we’ve past intellectually dishonesty and mover to being completely FOS.

            That you would couch the entire gay movement as simply “sexual nature of your cause” only show how mean and out of touch with reality you and your bigoted group of friends are they is why the numbers that hate you grows every single day.

            Finally,
            Given that the religious reich are: oblivious to the law and its consequences, intellectually inferior, intellectually dishonest , mean and out of touch AND FOS you’d think you get a clue as to why your number are shrinking, and shrinking quickly but then when we circle back around to intellectually inferior because you lives are centered around stone age text and it all makes senses.

          • Candyapple!

            gay marriage is illogical and serves no purpose in society… societies will not thrive if everyone is gay… however, society will thrive with heteros… see America and the rest of the world for proof.

          • homemadepasta

            Just WHO claims same gender couples “don’t procreate”? The Child Welfare League of America says there are at least NINE MILLION children of same gender parents.

            “Question: How Many Children Have Gay Parents in the US?

            According to the Child Welfare Information Gateway, between 8 and 10 million children are being raised in gay and lesbian families.”

            http://adoption.about.com/od/gaylesbian/f/gayparents.htm

            ” A 1995 National Health and Social Life Survey by E.O. Lauman found that up to nine million children in America have gay or lesbian parents (Committee on Psychosocial Aspects of Child and Family Health, 2002). ”

            http://www.cwla.org/programs/culture/glbtqposition.htm

            Before some anti-gay tells that standard anti-gay LIE that same gender parents are somehow inferior to mixed-sex parents:

            “A growing body of scientific literature demonstrates that children who grow up with 1 or 2 gay and/or lesbian parents fare as well in emotional, cognitive, social, and sexual functioning as do children whose parents are heterosexual. Children’s optimal development seems to be influenced more by the nature of the relationships and interactions within the family unit than by the particular structural form it takes.”

            http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;109/2/341

          • Danielle Wonsewitz

            It is biologically impossible for same gender “couples” to procreate. You realize that, don’t you? They can procreate outside of the coupling, with the sperm/eggs of someone else. But that is not “same gender couples procreating”. That is two people procreating with someone else, and then raising the child together. Also, your “how many children have gay parents in the US” is primarily based on adoption. I strongly support gay adoption. And I think it’s despicable that a few people argue about how “immoral” it is for gays to raise children, yet they don’t seem to care that gay couples are raising the children of straight parents who threw them away. Love always wins in my book. But again, adoption isn’t procreating. Raising a child and procreating are not the same thing.

          • homemadepasta

            Spare us your “biologically impossible” nonsense, we all know you want to HURT those children. WHY? WHAT DID THESE CHILDREN EVER DO TO HURT YOU?

          • homemadepasta

            “I strongly support gay adoption.”

            But you want to make sure these children have less nourishing food, fewer school books, by attacking their parents.

          • Danielle Wonsewitz

            Are you high? Get off the internet, you don’t belong here. First of all, I said I strongly support gay adoption. Second, are you trying to argue with scientific fact? Do you think the sun revolves around the Earth? IT IS BIOLOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for two men to have sex and have a baby. Are you that stupid? Go away.

          • homemadepasta

            You posted a website to an anti-gay “ministry” that promotes the fake “prayawaythegay” earlier. You might want to make your posts more consistent. I see you are truly dismayed at the evidence I’ve posted here.

          • Danielle Wonsewitz

            Did you even read the link I posted? Obviously not. It was a minister’s wife going through scripture that mentions homosexuality and how it isn’t as black and white as Christians claim. The entire article basically says that the Bible doesn’t condemn homosexuality. Maybe you should actually read the entire thing before you unleash your inner moronic psychopath. Damn. http://someone-to-talk-to.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57%3A10-does-the-bible-say&catid=34%3Afaqs&Itemid=41

          • True Radiant Free

            The Bible does clearly condemn homosexuality in the Old and New Testament.

            I Corinthians 6:9-11- “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the Kingdom of God. And such were some of you, but you were washed…”

            I Timothy 1:10- “The law is for people who are sexually immoral, or who practice homosexuality, or are slave traders, liars, promise breakers, or who do anything else that contradicts the wholesome teaching.”

            Revelation 22:14-15- “How blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they have the right to eat from the Tree Of Life and go through the gates into the city! Outside are the homosexuals, those involved with the occult and with drugs, the sexually immoral, murderers, idol-worshippers, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

            Leviticus 18:22- “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.”

            Jude 1:7- “Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.”

            Romans 1:26-27,32- “For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due. Who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them.”

          • Ben Tousey

            You have got to pull that pro-creation stick out of your ass. Survival is NOT just about pro-creation.
            From an evolutionary standpoint, homosexuality makes perfect sense. As we traveled in tribes, and survival was always touchy, we needed more than just pro-creation.
            The human animal has the longest gestation period, and the most helpless of all creatures on earth is the human baby. Natural Selection didn’t just need to “pro-create,” it needed to keep those humans alive until they also were ready to pro-create. To that end, it makes sense to put people within the tribes who had no interest in pro-creating themselves. By focusing their attention on their nieces and nephews, they provided a greater chance that those children would eventually reach adulthood.
            You think only until the baby is born… Natural Selection is thinking long-term.

          • Danielle Wonsewitz

            Wtf are you rambling about? I just wrote a scientific fact about the impossibility of two same-sex humans biologically reproducing. Get the stick out of your own ass, dude. I never gave an opinion about pro-creation. I just stated a fact. You want to argue with facts go scream your nonsense at an encyclopedia and leave the rest of us alone.

          • Ben Tousey

            What you TRIED to do was invoke science… something you clearly know nothing about. But I do appreciate how angrily you scream about facts and encyclopedias…
            In the beginning god told Eve not to eat from the tree of knowledge, and Christians have been avoiding knowledge ever since.

          • Danielle Wonsewitz

            Where did I yell? I’m typing, silently and calmly at my computer so your comment doesn’t make much sense. But if you want to argue that two men can have sex and create a baby, be my guest señor science.

          • Danielle Wonsewitz

            Btw, since you don’t seem to be too great at reading or forming a logical conclusion: all I’ve done is argue on the side of gay marriage and equality. I’ve even used the Bible to show Christians that God doesn’t condemn homosexuality. So I’m not sure what exactly I said that got your lace panties in a bunch. The only reason I even commented about the biological impossibility of two same-sex humans procreating within themselves is because this “homemadepasta” buffoon seems to think that butt sex makes babies.

          • Ben Tousey

            Kiss Jesus with that mouth?
            What I said is that your argument, that somehow sex has to be all about creation is a bullshit argument (and yes, I do kiss Jesus with this mouth). You have this crazy and bizarre idea that the only purpose of sex is to procreate. What I pointed out… scientifically, is that this is not the case. That more than likely, Natural Selection created homosexuality to protect the species.
            What I’m saying is that procreation is a bullshit argument… If all you care about is procreation, then you reveal profound ignorance as to how life came to be on this planet in the first place.

          • Danielle Wonsewitz

            When did I say anything even remotely related to sex only being for procreation? Especially since I don’t believe that at all. Sex is awesome, and not just for procreation. Where are you coming up with this random crap? I never said any of the things you’re saying I did. The only argument I made was (like I already said but you’re incapable of reading anything other than what you write yourself) against homemadepasta’s comment “Just WHO claims same gender couples “don’t procreate”?” Because same-sex couples don’t procreate. They have sex, probably great sex, but they don’t procreate without outside help. I was just stating a fact in response to that single, sentence. I don’t know why you’re so interested in drumming up arguments that don’t exist when you refuse to even read what you’re responding to. I’m done talking to you. If someone else who’s actually intelligent and literate wants to have a discussion, feel free to hit me up.

          • Ben Tousey

            It obviously can’t be great sex if they have to worry about how other people are having sex. And believe me… I read your posts… A word of advice… it takes intelligence to recognize intelligence, just in case a smart person does decide to hit you up.

          • Ben Tousey

            Actually, I don’t wear panties. I prefer boxer-briefs. They hold my boys all nice and snug, and they shape my ass. They hug me like a real man with manly hands. They make me feel all sexy inside.
            They’re way more sexy than panties, and lace… that’s just too girly.
            The biological idea of whether or not two men can have a baby is ridiculous, insane, inane, stupid, and purely ignorant. (My boyfriend Roget taught me that.) That you even feel the need to bring it up shows that you haven’t yet dealt with the science around sexuality.

          • Ben Tousey

            By the way… do you eat Jesus’ body with that mouth?

          • Danielle Wonsewitz

            I don’t remember ever saying I was a Christian…

          • Ben Tousey

            You didn’t use the words “I’m a Christian,” but that’s one of the most common Christian arguments. Atheists don’t use that argument, scientists definitely don’t use that argument, only Christians use it…

          • holoh

            I think I’m in love with you.

          • Danielle Wonsewitz

            Oh really? Because you just called me a hypocrite in another comment.

          • holoh

            I love hypocrites.

          • holoh

            So, you live in a tribe? Your argument is moronic, moron.

          • Ben Tousey

            Do you eat Jesus’ body with that mouth?
            I understand your confusion, since you don’t seem to be much on education, knowledge, thoughtful thinking, nuance… and I understand why.
            In the bible god told humans NOT to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, and Republicans/Christians have been avoiding knowledge ever since.

          • holoh

            I’m not a Christian. I’m agnostic.

          • Ben Tousey

            Agnostics actually enjoy debate, and they come to a debate with facts, agnostics don’t use the bible to get their morality. Agnostics don’t freak out when someone calls into question the authenticity of the bible… You’re a Christian, it’s slathered all over your comments.

          • http://192.168.0.1/ Kyle Stephens

            I think I’d like to say the same about your head in Nancy Pelosi’s anal cavities..but I think I prefer you suffocate from the intoxicating odor.

            You’ve exhausted all my tolerance for the day, I’m starting to get irritated with bozos like you.

          • Ben Tousey

            How I love the children of Jesus. They have no tolerance, they make no arguments, and they only insult. Either Jesus is incredibly ignorant, or he just attracts the worst in humanity… or both.

          • http://192.168.0.1/ Kyle Stephens

            funny you say that, because last time I checked, you were insulting me. I’m about 3 steps away from doxing you. I have better things to do, think whatever you want.

          • Ben Tousey

            You’re going to DOX me? I don’t know what that is, but I can only assume you’re threatening violence… you know, like Jesus would do.

            So you’re going to tell me that this comment: “the reason you’re a homo is because you’re a midget who can’t get women,” ISN’T an insult? and BUSTER? Who the hell uses buster? What, are you eighty? It might explain your extreme crankiness.
            If all you have are insults, then you don’t have an argument, and you don’t. You can’t argue as a Christian since even the most ardent atheist could see that you have nothing in common with Jesus. You can’t argue from a point of “morality,” since all you want to do is attack those who disagree with you, which is hardly moral.

          • http://192.168.0.1/ Kyle Stephens

            who said attack? you aren’t very intelligent, are you? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxing

            I told you I don’t mess around, but I’ve wasted enough time on bottomfeeders like you, I have an actual education to attend to. Go shove it. I’d be no better than you.

          • Ben Tousey

            Well good luck with your education. Hopefully you’ll finally make it out of Junior High School. I should warn you though, those SATS are for more than just filling in the dots. You have to think about the questions, not just make patterns with the dots. Word problems will probably be the hardest for you since you don’t understand language all that well, but keep it up. Pretty soon you’ll finally be able to spell IQ. And then, with lots of hard work, you’ll be able to know what an IQ is. And THEN, if you really hang in there, you’ll actually have an IQ. Don’t give up, you can do it.
            And by the way, if I’m a bottom feeder, then how is it that I keep running into you?

          • http://192.168.0.1/ Kyle Stephens

            junior high, well aren’t you a sweet heart. Not quite, I am a grade-A student at a university which ranks directly below little ivy. But I doubt since you’re probably unemployed, that you had such the education.

          • Ben Tousey

            You do strike me as kind of a grade-A nut-job. So you’re going to Liberty University? Getting your BS degree? You’re really good with the BS. It’s good to have dreams. I respect your dedication to your BS. Hell, I used to work on a farm and haven’t seen this much BS. Keep digging, there’s bound to be a bicycle in there someplace.

          • Ben Tousey

            I love how you want me to think you’re so smart, and yet you couldn’t muster up a cogent thought if your life depended on it.

          • http://192.168.0.1/ Kyle Stephens

            Well aren’t you a sweetheart. try junior in a top-notch university that directly ranks below a little ivy. Alas, I guess in your unemployed welfare-driven state, you didn’t get the education you decided to sacrifice, in order to burn the American flag.

          • Ben Tousey

            Yah, we chose not to get our education from Fox “news,” or Conservopedia, or the Texas Board of Edumication, or the bible. We chose to go with the science as we know it.

          • Ben Tousey

            Huh? I’ve had more intellectual conversations with a telephone pole… But then the pole didn’t try to convince me it went to school.

          • Joe G

            Lesbians couples can get a sperm donor so that’s kind of procreating

          • Danielle Wonsewitz

            Well yeah and it’s kind of neat to see lesbian couples who each gave birth to one child. But that still requires outside help. They can’t procreate within their own biology.

          • Joe G

            True they can’t.

          • holoh

            No, lesbian couples cannot get a sperm donor. An individual lesbian (or any other woman) can get a sperm donor. A woman’s ability or inability to get a sperm donor has NOTHING to do with whether she is gay, straight, asexual, or whatever.

          • Joe G

            Well if you really want to split hairs like that then yes you’re right.

          • holoh

            How is that splitting hairs? Two lesbian women cannot carry a child and give birth. Only one woman can and that has nothing to do with her sexual preference or relationship status.

          • holoh

            You are seriously trying to argue that gay couple can procreate? Really? Stop with the arguments that you know aren’t true. No one is buying them. They serve no purpose.

            Please tell me how you fit one penis inside another penis.

          • Danielle Wonsewitz

            How many children have been adopted by gay parents? Jillian Michaels and her partner adopted a child from Haiti. Would you rather that child still be starving to death and alone in Haiti? How about the fact that every child raised by a gay couple is loved and wanted. And the couples who decide to have children through surrogates, every single child is planned, wanted, and created on purpose. Sounds like a pretty beneficial relationship for a society. Definitely not pointless.

          • Ben Tousey

            First of all, not everyone IS gay… that’s a stupid argument. Only about seven percent of the population is gay so societies will do just fine with gay people in their midst. And if you want to see the dregs of society, check out your straight people. These are they who rape children, abuse children, frighten children, abandon children…
            Society isn’t exactly being served by straight couples right now either.

          • http://192.168.0.1/ Kyle Stephens

            so you claim we’re anti-gay, yet if anything, you’re anti-straight….I don’t see a difference…it’s painting the kettle black. Last time I’ve checked, gay people can ALSO abandon, frighten, abuse, and rape. Are feminists going to tell me there aren’t female pedos? You’re obviously bat freakin’ bullcrap crazy!

          • Ben Tousey

            Really, that’s your argument? How far up your ass did you have to go to pull that one? Have you been hanging out with third graders lately?
            Do you eat Jesus’ body with that mouth?

          • Joe G

            Who said everyone will become gay? A small percentage of the population is homosexual. Marriage equality won’t change that. Also, many homosexual couples adopt children and provide them with a loving and caring home instead of leaving these children in a broken system. That is useful in society

          • Alexis Palacio

            spot on ^^^

          • homemadepasta

            Sock puppet^^^

          • Gregg Powers

            you missed the point; homosexuality is against the moral law of God, having a Bar Mitzvah is not….

          • John McMickle

            It is not about forcing homosexuals to do anything, it is about Christians not wanting to anyway have their name or business name associated with a same sex ceremony,

          • Danielle Wonsewitz

            But why?! Nowhere in the Bible does it say it is sinful to be gay. In a handful of places it says not to have gay sex. But in no place doesn’t say marrying someone, spending your life with, or loving someone of the same gender is a sin. If they didn’t want to make a cake celebrating some gay sex orgy, I would understand. But for them to use God as an excuse to judge and spread hate, that’s grotesque.

          • John McMickle

            “In a handful of places it says not to have gay sex.”

            In those few places it is very explicit that gay sex is a sin.

            Romans 1:23-31

            “23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.

            24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

            26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

            28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”

            That is pretty clear that the act of Homosexual sex is something a christian should have anything to do with. When you start a lot of bad things will happen. Essentially I did something a wrong today, so I will do something worse tomorrow. A Christian that want nothing to do with a same-sex marriage should have that right

          • Danielle Wonsewitz

            Does no one in this thread know how to read? Like I said, nowhere in the Bible does it say it is sinful to be gay, get married to someone of the same sex, or spend the rest of your life with someone of the same sex. But for whatever reason you’re talking to me about gay sex which was the exact opposite of my point.

            But whatever, since we’re here. You’re telling me that it is “pretty clear that the act of Homosexual sex is some a christian should have anything to do with.” It’s so clear and yet you only have one verse in the entire Bible? A vague verse at that, in the entire Bible. Do you know how big the Bible is? God was clear enough to say, don’t murder, many many times. And yet homosexuality is “so wrong” that it gets a single verse that is more than open to interpretation. When you take this verse in context, even just the context you already gave. The entire passage talks about lusting. It says because they started worshiping earthly things instead of God, He gave them over to their lust. It never says that the fact that it was two people of the same sex is what was the abomination. Even in the list of “unrighteousness” in verse 28 does it say anything about homosexuality. This is the EXACT same type of argument Christians used to make for slavery, calling it the will of God. You’re just repeating whatever your pastor or Christian professors have told you because you’re too afraid to question it.

          • John McMickle

            And that means it is wrong because he is giving you over to evil. That act of homosexual sex is a sin. That is based on the fact it says in several places do not do this.

          • holoh

            Please stop with the arguments that you know are false. No one is buying them. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Your position is that business owners should do whatever their customers want them to do regardless of the owner’s beliefs. Therefore, by your rationale, you believe that a bakery owner should be forced to create a cake that says “All niggers must die”? Please respond (or continue being hypocritical).

          • Danielle Wonsewitz

            My stance is that companies don’t discriminate. What’s yours?

          • holoh

            I don’t understand your stance. Companies do discriminate all the time. Maybe you are using a different definition of discriminate than I am? Would you say that when a bakery refuses to make a gay wedding cake that is discrimination? I believe they have the right to refuse. If you want to call that discrimination, then I guess I support that discrimination. My point was – where does government draw their arbitrary line? If the government forces a bakery to make a gay wedding cake, they would then have to bake a cake if someone asked them to put “niggers must die” on it, right?

            I shouldn’t have called you hypocritical. I don’t understand your position enough yet (but I’m trying to).

          • Danielle Wonsewitz

            There’s a pretty clear line between refusing business because it hurts the image of your company, and refusing business based solely on who the person is. If companies can discriminate based on sexual orientation then they should be able to discriminate based on race, right?

          • Danielle Wonsewitz

            Should we have separate drinking fountains and bathrooms for homosexuals, you know, so we don’t all get AIDS? Of course not. Maybe we are using different definitions of discrimination. Yours seems to be a dictionary one, whereas mine is the one that coincides with civil rights. And you know, my biggest problem with the whole thing is that Christians claim it’s against their beliefs when it’s not.

          • holoh

            Your words need clarification. I believe what you mean to say is that it is against the beliefs of many Christians, but they are mistaken in their belief that homosexuality is a sin. They, of course, do believe it is a sin. Anyone could argue for an eternity if that belief is strictly cultural or religious because there are passages in the bible that can be interpreted to be against homosexuality. Many Christians, given their belief (which is probably cultural) that homosexuality is wrong, have latched on to that interpretation because it supports their ideas. This is obviously a very common thing. Islamic extremists have promoted a specific interpretation of the Quran that supports their position, for example.

            As for discrimination, I believe we are using different definitions. I wonder if you have an answer to my question above though. If the government forces a baker to make a gay wedding cake, what does it do when a neo-nazi wants that baker to make a cake that says “All niggers must die”? How could the government force the baker to do one thing that violates his/her beliefs, but then allow him to refuse to do something else that violates his/her beliefs?

          • FaithSaves

            Christ also said that marriage is between a man and a woman. Oh BTW wasn’t Christ “forcing” his beliefs on others when he made a whip and went into the temple? Christ loved the lost but that does not mean he excused their sin or took part in it. If Christ were a backer in todays world would he bake a cake for a homosexual wedding? He would not. However he would call sin out and tell the sinner to sin no more.
            (Show me anything I said that is not Bible)

          • Danielle Wonsewitz

            You’re the one making the claims, I’m not going to do your research and post sources for you. If you say Christ said this or that then post the verses yourself. And He went to the temple to discipline the religious leaders. He didn’t stop halfway through to point out some woman cowering in the corner and yell at her about every single thing she’s ever done wrong. Jesus hung out with drunkards, prostitutes, and tax collectors. When people pointed fingers and said “Don’t you know she’s a sinner?” Jesus said, “Don’t you know she’s forgiven? ” It’s not your job to condemn those who Christ is trying to save. Do you not have divorced friends? Do you not let them live in their sin? The Bible says that to be divorced and be with someone else is committing adultery, every day. Do you stumble through the internet, commenting “divorce is wrong”, and “don’t bake cakes for divorced people”? For some reason you can understand in that situation that someone else’s sin is between them and God, but not with homosexuality? You’re condemning people before you’ve loved them or showed them the grace of God and the work of Christ. Is that really the life you want to lead? You’re not the law. You’re not judge. Everyone will answer to God. If someone comes to faith in Christ, they can seek your council or that of a religious leader. But don’t greet them with judgment and condemnation.

          • Alex Melia

            Well said!

          • Gina

            thats not what we are doing! but everywhere you turn Christians are being forced to go along with sin or be punished. it’s not just the gay thing either. but thats fine because as soon as God gives Jesus the go ahead we will gone and you all can wallow in your sin till the end, then judgment. sorry but it’s true…no I’m not sorry, if you or whoever have been warned and wont listen then you made your bed.

          • Iris Tedder

            YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME DANIELLE??? Jews, Buddhist, Hindu’s…etc etc.. has nothing to do with same sex marriages. Ur speaking of their “faiths”.. Christians aren’t forcing anyone to do anything..and IF u know the bible so well…read SODOM AND GOMORRAH…then get back to me..k? God doesn’t hate the Sinner…its the SIN. PLUS when someone OWNS their own business they should have the right to TURN ANYONE AWAY..even if they are Christians.

          • Tom Wright

            Activists say stuff like this all the time, “Jesus would welcome all into ‘the Big Tent'” And that’s very true, but almost always when He ministered to a sinner He would say, “Go, and sin no more”.

          • Danielle W

            Christ did, yes. But I don’t remember Him commanding us to do the same. John never preached repentance. You’d think if salvation hinged on our repentance then it would be in the gospels but John says nothing about it. Not one word. Neither does he mention repentance in any of his three letters.

          • GatorDog

            My Bible doe’s Not Teach me Bar Mitzvahs are evil, It doe’s state however, very clearly Homosexuality is evil and wrong. I’m not sure what Jews not forcing me to eat Kosher food has to do with Homosexuallity but Jewdism I’m quite sure states in the book of Vayiqra (Leviticus) that ‘man with man is abhorrent and to be punished with death’. Next lets examine Islam and Homosexuality. Bad Idea their, stone to death and then some, but Good luck in forcing your Gay Lifestyle on a Christian Nation. It may yet be a long day..

          • Danielle W

            How can that even be your reasoning? Leviticus also says “Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.” But you don’t care about that, do you? No, because it’s easy to tell people something is wrong if it’s something you don’t do. But wearing polyester isn’t wrong to you because it’s something you do. Leviticus outlines law that was put in place by God for the Jews at that time to set them apart, culturally, from surrounding nations and so they could cleanse their sins in preparation for the coming of Christ. Christ has already come and abolished the old law, that’s why you don’t have to make goat sacrifices anymore and why you eat pork without it being a sin. And last I checked, you’re not a Jew.

            Congratulations on being a bigoted Christian. You stand among the ranks of the Jews who hung Christ, the religious leaders who Christ threw out of the temple, and the Catholic priests who tried to sell salvation until Martin Luther took a stand. You’re incapable of spiritual growth.

          • pignut

            You make no sense. Why would a bar mitzvah be against christian belief. Christians and jews both believe in the old testament and same god.

          • Guest

            Christianity is not ‘against’ Judaism; they share common roots, in fact, and there are Jews who believe Jesus is the Messiah known as Messianic Jews. As for the rest, I don’t recall the Bible saying that Buddhism is a sin. In fact, Buddhism doesn’t even believe in a divine being.

          • herdzcatz

            Let the market decide. Let gays and their sympathizers boycott the store. We think denying someone a wedding cake will stop them from marrying? If someone feels forced to abandon their gay relationship because someone won’t make floral arrangements for their wedding, then their gay cojones aren’t very developed–or perhaps they just haven’t received the message that they’re the most celebrated kids on the block and most vendors would give their right arm to serve them. Heck, when I was 19, I wasn’t allowed to buy liquor at stores, but as they say, my former love of alcohol “found a way.”

          • Cindy

            It is not your place or mine to judge each party for that either. Let them choose!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Michael_Woerner1963

            Amen!

          • Arno

            Good point. Here’s a thought: Let’s try some Christ-like honesty. People don’t like homosexuality because it is creepy. We don’t have a problem with divorces, unwed couples, non-Christian marriages. If we did, then we would be picketing over that as well. We picket against gays and (often to a lesser extent) lesbians, because we’re terrified of them. They creep us out. They might mistake us for gay and sexually assault us before we can convince them that we’re not into that. That is the only reason why we will throw one or two verses of the bible at them and leave everyone else in peace. But as long as we can make ourselves believe that it’s God’s will, we can feel righteous about it. And we’ll go on driving innocent people to the brink of suicide, in proud defense of our God, when we could not be bothered to lift a finger to enforce any of the more important ideals we are reading about in the bible. Cowardice is very unbecoming of those who claim to represent the “one God”.

          • jayrea

            We are not against the Jews, Buddhist or Gay people. We just don’t promote and celebrate the sin! Would you go into a Jewish deli and FORCE them to make you a pork sandwich? The Jewish are very kolsher people and that would be utterly disrespectful to that deli, the owners, their community and their faith because we all now they do not eat or touch pork/swine/pig meat because it’s against their faith. so why would you walk into any other religious establishment and ask them to make or do something that is against their faith? We’re not FORCING others to live like Christ, we’re just trying to live as Christ instructed us to live. now, in every faith or group of people you have SOME bad seeds, but that’s not everyone.

          • Deanna

            It’s the same thing as if a business owner were trying to discriminate against a biracial couple working for them. It’s the responsibility of the employer to be all inclusive and keep their personal PREJUDICES out of their business. We are all equal, including the right to marry who we love.

          • Merlyn7

            Or tell those ‘Christians’ it’s illegal to discriminate in those states.

          • Phil B.

            Seems pretty simple to me. If a business discriminates, I take my business elsewhere. If enough people agree, the store loses business.

          • Steven Resnick

            Small businesses are licensed by the state and if their business is performing weddings they have no authority to discriminate regardless of what they believe.

          • Iris Tedder

            Got a better Idea Steve…TELL IT TO GOD ON JUDGEMENT DAY. Now if u chose NOT to believe in God or W/ever..that is def’ YOUR prerogative …but IMO forcing small business to adhere to gay’s isn’t that the same as what Mr Beer said about Jordans remark? *PLUS more and more Christians are standing up for their rights according to not their words..but GODS’.

          • Giggle Snork

            Recognize? You mean being paid for public service which serves the public? So you would be ok with a business not hiring women becuase the owner believes women she be at home? Or how about a single business woman being senied a hotel room because she is nit escorted by her husband or male memembwr of her family?

          • scott

            Steve….I know and what of Black couples forcing businesses to recognize their marriage…Oh…Oh and what of bi-racial couple who are also forcing recognition for their marriages. Lets not forget those heterosexuals who marry much older men for money. They, too are forcing recognition. Even those couples on their second, third, fourth and fifth husband or wife force us to recognize their sinful marriages. How about the marriage that is an abusive one, where the man beats his wife regularly, but expect us all to recognize the ownership he touts over his wife?

          • LeftleaningTx

            Everyone must follow our Civil rights laws , even Christians.

          • phoomp

            “Tell that to gay couples who are forcing small businesses to recognize their ‘marriage’.”

            You mean, forcing small businesses to respect the tenets of their faith to not Hate? Why do christians feel businesses must have the right/obligation to Hate?

          • Arno

            When it really comes down to it, businesses don’t have to recognize anyone’s marriage. Businesses shouldn’t make it their business. Not once has a business owner asked me about my marriage, divorce or girlfriend before doing anything for me.

          • aksteam

            And vice versa ;-), albeit it hasn’t been working that way.

          • Guest

            That cuts both ways.

          • Gregg Powers

            we will not force anything on anyone however we are also under no compulsion to buy from a company advocating sin

          • holoh

            Did you want to respond to Steve or just continue being a hypocrite? If we have no right to force our belief (that gay marriage isn’t possible) on others, how can you possibly say that business owners must be force to submit to to gay people’s belief that the business owner must serve them and even create things like gay wedding cakes? So, do you want to retract one statement or continue being a hypocrite?

          • Gina

            we have no right to force our beliefs on others, but they can force us to conform to their way of thinking by suing everyone who disagrees with them? if you don’t believe that’s happening just pick up a news paper or go on line. how long until they start suing our Pastors because they wont marry them in church, because we don’t believe the way they do? tolerance works both ways.

          • http://fairfieldbayphotography.com/ Jeff Beer

            I just thank god we live in a nation of laws, without having to answer to religious zealots.

            No one is suing to force people to “conform to their way of thinking”. They are suing to preserve their fundamental human rights. Buying a cake in a bakery should not be subject to bigotry or discrimination. Nor should buying a flower arrangement.

            You want others to be “tolerant” to people who are discriminatory and bigoted? That’s simply absurd. I certainly “tolerate” your beliefs. If you want to pray in public, fine with me. But when it impacts the rights of other people to do simple commerce you are crossing the line.

            I discriminate on behavior, not gender identity or sexual preferences, or race, or religion, etc. If someone comes into my shop and is polite and respectful, I’m happy to trade my services for their money.

            We need to exercise a little discipline in our lives, and not have the knee-jerk reactions to other people’s points of view. Just because you believe something is not correct is no reason to be mean to people.

            Happy Holidays!

          • saminorlando

            Pathetically your’s and Starbucks diversity does not include those who choose to believe the Biblical definition of Marriage that has governed society until Barack Obama! Sadly, those who continue to procreate humans by the love of a man and a woman are now the outcasts but the parasites who depend on birth by our Designer’s method to feed their perversions are the diverse ones! I will never visit a Starbucks again and besides Chic-fil-A has a terrific cup of coffee and its free to seniors as myself!

          • http://fairfieldbayphotography.com/ Jeff Beer

            The ironic thing is that Starbuck’s diversity DOES include christians and muslims and jews and everyone else.

            It simply does not exclude the people you choose to hate.

            And you don’t know me, so please don’t tell me what I believe.

            I think most of y’all are reading way too much into this.

          • Iris Tedder

            I saw NOTHING that of and validity that Jordan was FORCING IS BELIEFS ON ANYONE….MR BEER.

          • http://batman-news.com Jim

            And you have no right to force yours on us.

          • J R

            Jeff Beer……….And I guess Howard Schultz DOES? I would hope you would think about that……but doubt you will.

          • B.Kerr

            THAT’S rich, Isn’t Howard Schultz forcing his beliefs on others?
            “If You Support Biblical Marriage, Sell Your Shares”

          • jwr50d

            As Starbucks has no right to force theirs on others. I do not purchase from Starbucks any more due to the expense of their products( the 38% increase) and the company’s view on marriage.
            as stated via company communications. If the company was so inclusive (pc for whatever you want to do is ok) they would be as supportive to traditional marriage. Regardless of what the government may say is correct,(a miniscule few judicial progressives) “gay” marriage will not ever be acceptable to me. I will also not spend a penny at Starbucks to support that 38% and Chairman Schultz.

          • Cindy

            Nor should you be forced to serve others against your belief. What is next..you can’t discriminate against hiring a rapist? That is what is coming if people don’t stop forcing these stupid issues! Let people make their own choices for heavens sake.

          • Albert Mendonca

            Thats like saying you are free to believe the earth is round but have no right to force your belief on others!

          • Evangeline F. Estrella

            boo, so you like vagina to vagina, penis to penis, this is absurd…

          • Steven Resnick

            Really have you ever heard of a person who is intersexed? Oh wait probably not your ignorant beliefs won’t allow you to.

            Can you define what a female is and what a male is? By your logic you only have physical characteristics.

            By the way Christian logic is that everyone sins, so what’s it to you that two people who are in love get married? It’s none of your damn business.

          • Chuck

            Steven Resnick, the problem with your argument of Christian logic is that gays and lesbians don’t think homosexuality is a sin even though it says it is. Worst sin of all is to think a sin isn’t a sin.

          • GKSanDiego

            Like you thinking that your bigotry isn’t a sin. Look chuckles, you’ve clearly got no room to talk. No room at all!!!

          • homemadepasta

            No, Jesus said the second worst sin is to fail to love your neighbor as yourself. Anti-gays clearly are committing that sin on a daily basis.

          • Candyapple!

            It is when you bring it into our schools… then it’s game on.

          • homemadepasta

            That’s another standard anti-gay lie. You anti-gays keep trying to change the subject when we destroy your previous anti-gay lie.

          • Merlyn7

            Gay students already attend your schools. The game has always been on.

          • Justin

            So is gluttony. Should we outlaw that too?

          • Candyapple!

            Gluttony – We shouldn’t promote it, support it, teach our kids to take part in it, right? We should steer people away from gluttony, not throw it a parade.

          • Deanna

            Is your church steering the overweight people in your congregation away from eating too much? Are they actively trying to get legislation passed making gluttony against the law? We aren’t talking about promoting being gay. That’s not something you choose to be. We are promoting equal rights. That’s it.

          • homemadepasta

            Comparing loving, committed same gender American married couples to “gluttony” is HATE SPEECH, nothing more. Americans have noticed how anti-gays are always trying to demean, demonize and dehumanize LGBT Americans, and we’ve had it with anti-gay HATE SPEECH.

          • Justin

            You should probably re-read my comment.

          • homemadepasta

            Oh, no, I got your comment, I debunked it.

          • Justin

            So, here’s why I say to reread my comment – I’m on your side here…

          • GKSanDiego

            Then explain in full detail why you’re not boycotting Red Lobster? And while you’re at it, why aren’t you bitching about all of those divorced friends of yours and the other ones wearing fabric blends?

          • Candyapple!

            Because nobody is promoting divorce, no one is out there saying divorce is good, it’s fine, everyone should be divorced like they are with homosexuality… nobody is encouraging people to be divorced.. they’re not teaching in school that divorce is good and normal… Quite the opposite, we discourage divorce, we don’t promote it.

          • GKSanDiego

            With a 50% divorce rate, that’s a hard statement to agree with, but taking it at face value, are you shunning your divorced friends, telling them they can’t marry again, denying them hospital visitation rights, and telling their kids they are lowlifes because their parents divorced?

            And what about all those shellfish you’ve been eating? That particular “abomination” is higher up in the food chain in the Bible, so you need to be beating yourself to a bloody pulp before you ever point a finger at a gay couple getting married because they love each other, and telling them they are sinful.

          • Deanna

            However divorce is legal. It’s socially acceptable. Children in schools are taught that it’s ok to come from a broken home, so yes, they are taught it’s ok. Go to your church on Sunday and take a survey of how many people took their sanctified, every-right-to-be-married marriage and tossed it down the drain… And maybe have done this more than once! And it’s ok! But a committed, loving same-sex couple who may never get divorced and respect the privilege to be married more than most straight couples do, can’t get married. Your club of married, divorced, remarried Christians is too holy for same-sex couples…..

          • homemadepasta

            Yes, Candyapple, anti-gays are promoting divorce by divorcing more often than all other Americans, as I documented above.

          • Joe G

            No one is saying everyone should be homosexual. People are promoting choice and equality

          • Danielle Wonsewitz
          • homemadepasta

            Your hate-based website promotes the FAKE “prayawaythegay” which has been proven never to work and always harms its victims.

          • True Radiant Free

            Feeling the need to spread your agenda much? Because we all know that people who support that lifestyle are losing…

          • Giancarlo

            Then why does God keep creating homosexuals. Last I checked, homosexuality is not a choice. You are born gay. Just as some people are born with both a penis and a vagina. Have you heard of hermaphrodites?

          • Jeffrey Wimmer

            You KNOW of any? Can you prove they really exist?

          • isabellaE

            Yes and yes. Read a book. Talk to people without dissolving into hysterics just because they are different than you, or know something you don’t, and you’ll notice a lot more exists than you thought before.

          • PS

            Wow saving lots of souls that way Jordon.. I don’t think you even know HIM just spewing hatred…

          • homemadepasta

            This obsession anti-gays exhibit with “gay sex” is not healthy.

          • Phil B.

            Is that the same bible that says its okay to sell your children into slavery? Hey I’ll trade you an XBox for your daughter.

          • Joe G

            If you want to talk about “nature” there are plenty of example in nature of homosexuality. Dozens of species have homosexuality. Quit trying to force your twisted views of the world on to everyone else.

          • Denverdood

            That’s your belief, which is not everyone’s belief.

            Look at the middle east…both religious factions say their god, and their way is right. They’re willing to kill each other over it. Their word of god is the right one?

            Learn to give unconditional love like Christ. Let your god judge who is the sinner. That’s not your job.

          • Pani B

            Could refute but it’s just easier to call you a dumbass

          • Bill Freidline

            Abomination, you say? And tattoos……and shellfish…….and poly/cotton blends….and……

          • P3Wannabe

            The simple fact of the matter is that you, like most other intolerant Christian people, are incorrect. While I will fully admit what Leviticus says in scripture, that is part of the old law. The old law passed away when Christ sacrificed himself on the cross. Now as for Christ himself, in the Bible, he never mentions anything about sexuality, later in the Bible in the letters of Paul (which were written by a fallible and imperfect man) there is mention of the so called “sin.” As for your vastly uneducated claim about homosexuality being unnatural it is a well documented fact that over 450 different animal species worldwide display homosexual behavior (Fereydooni March 2014). In conclusion, I suggest that you take the time to stop judging others and do what Christ called us to do in the first place, namely love one another.
            http://www.yalescientific.org/2012/03/do-animals-exhibit-homosexuality/

          • Paul Carr

            Really, Jordan. It’s an abomination the be homo? Guess we’re all in trouble, including you. Way to show your Bible thumping intelligence.Homo

            [hoh-moh] Spell Syllables
            noun
            1.
            (italics) the genus of bipedal primates that includes modern humansand several extinct forms, distinguished by their large brains and adependence upon tools.
            Compare archaic Homo.
            2.
            Informal. (sometimes lowercase)
            a member of the genus Homo.
            the species Homo sapiens or one of its members.

          • tmf_x

            Bible Cherry picking. The basis of Christianity.

          • Toby James

            RIGHT ON! They will never be married in God’s eyes, only man’s. We know man is capable of great evil and being a perv in America is acceptable to many.

          • Tom Wright

            God made Adam & Eve, not Adam & Steve.

          • GatorDog

            Not even dumb animals practice homosexuality. It’s un-natural, non-productive (no possibility of reproduction) and Biblically immoral. What more can I say. I vote with my pocket book first voice second. That’s my right, get used to it. Bye Starbucks!!!

          • jsb

            Jordan…get over it. Your beliefs are YOUR beliefs. Live your life and leave the rest of the world alone.

          • androgyne anode

            lol

            Say hi to the tooth fairy for me while you’re at it.

          • http://www.teamusa.org/usa-roller-sports Majorana Fermion

            So is eating ham. Or shellfish. Or cutting your beard – you don’t shave or cut the sides of your hair, do you? And from your stance, I must assume that if your kids disobey you, you follow the word of God and beat them senseless. Or dead, depending on the passage cited.

          • Andrew Smith

            Abomination doesn’t mean sin. Leviticus also says eating shellfish is an abomination. Surely, you don’t go around boycotting Red Lobster.

          • Giggle Snork

            Since homosexuality exists in nature then God made it….unless you are saying God didnt create everything.

          • pwheeler

            Except that in all species including humans nature produces homosexuals. Also what happens when a couple can’t produce children? Should they get divorced to uphold your narrow, sub-literate view of the universe?

          • 19mr85

            The issue is owning stock in Starbucks. If you choose to make it a biblical issue and aren’t comfortable owing stock, currently offering a really good return on your investment, that’s your choice. Don’t buy the stock or their products. I am sure there are many people that would appreciate a great return on their investments.

            If that’s your criteria for choosing investment opportunities, let it be. Just remember there many companies that have no issue separating their companies philosophies, vs effectively running a business that offers shareholders a great return on the investment.

            You mentioned what was written in the bible was written for a purpose, homosexuality is a sin, I’m not sure if you were there when it was written, however in keeping with the bibles overall message of loving others, being treated as you would want to be treated, I would bet there wasn’t a big debate on homosexuality.

            I think using the bible to promote your own agenda is a sin. Who are you to think your interpretation of the bible and use of it to defend or not defend someone’s freedom to purchase openly traded stock is really an abuse of all the bible has to offer.

          • Darryl Andre

            Oh Jordan, Poor ignorant self loathing and fearful Jordan. Try not to live your life in stupidity, it’s much easier to get along.

          • scott

            Your view point is a popular one,, but what about those heterosexual couples who choose Not to have children or, unfortunately, not able to reproduce? There have been Gays since the beginning of time. What if Gays are God’s built in population control? And, don’t forget that every single Gay person was/is conceived from a female’s eggs and a male’s sperm. Gays are born to straights. Why does God allow Gay people to be born to heterosexual couples? Does God create sin? Are Gay people a punishment to heterosexuals? Does God create a baby to punish it’s parents? Are we talking about the same God?

          • Carbonman1950

            Not everyone believes that “the holy bible” [sic] is factual, true, or even moral. So there’s that.
            And there’s the logic that homosexuality exists in every animal species that God created.
            And since God created them all it is blasphemy to assume that God gets the same “icky” feeling about His creations that you do.

          • MedfordMan

            Clearly, since you alone are without sin, you may cast the first stone. Since you alone need not fear judgment, you may stand in judgment. I understand your boycott entirely. There was a man who sat down to eat with publicans and sinners, taking meat together at the house of Levi, teaching others by example to love their neighbor, and saying that whatsoever you do to the least among his brethren, you do also to him. It is him whom you boycott, isn’t it?

          • Rick

            “Abomination” simply means: outside Hebrew (Jewish) law; no more, no less. You make it sound like something inscribed within the stars. Also, Holy Bible is usually capitalized by we Christians. It’s also abominable (though not an abomination) to be ignorant of your own faith, your own country, your own language.

          • Spawn_of_Santa

            But lying, bearing false witness is o.k. right?

          • LeftleaningTx

            The planet is VERY overpopulated.
            This could be mother natures for of birth control,,,,,
            Regardless, the bible also say “judge not lest ye be judged”
            I think that kinda of puts a nice bow on what God wants plus by God allowing what is happening to happen he must disapprove of his children bigoted behavior.
            I’m just sayin,,,,

          • TWINEINZ

            If God wanted it only to be man and women, he would have done a better job on not just the plumbing of us men and women but the brain wiring as well that give the attraction to a certain gender to want to mate with.
            People don’t choose to be gay, they are born that way. I was born with girl part and wired to like boys, my close friend was born with boy part but wired to like boys. Your God did that. He didn’t make a choice. It’s just the way it is. And I don’t know about ‘your’ god, but my God loves us all and accepts us all. He created all of us the way he wanted us to be. Period!

          • Laura Ashley

            So interracial couples are also an abomination, and touching a woman while she’s on her period is also an abomination. Oh, oh how about getting tattoos? Get out of Leviticus and start reading Jesus’ word. You know him right? The guy who hung out with thieves, whores, degenerates and preached about love. Ya feel me bra?

          • Arno

            And do you have as many kids as you’ve had sex? Because if that’s your approach, any time you have had sex without reproducing, you’ve sinned.

          • CYR

            Why is the man having sex with a girl? Jeez man, pedophile much? Try having sex with women! Or other men. But not girls. That’s just creepy.

          • Ethan

            Homosexuality is normal. My dogs hump each other. Rats go gay. Cats go gay. Monkeys go gay. All animals can be gay. Are they sinning? No, because they can’t go to heaven because god said so lol. But we, because we are intelligent, can! God didn’t make humans first, sorry to tell ya.

        • holoh

          Yes, the CEO didn’t say those exact words – that is why it isn’t in quotes. It’s a paraphrase.

          Also, my belief is that the only valid marriage is a marriage under God. Other people aren’t married. What the law says has nothing to do with God or marriage, so, not it wouldn’t make sense to outlaw marriages between Buddhists. They can’t get married. Do you propose outlawing suntans for people with extremely fair skin who can’t tan? It makes no sense to outlaw something that can’t happen.

          That’s exactly the problem with America – you can’t fathom something without big government being involved with it. Why does government need to be involved in marriage? Most liberals say that it’s between two people and other not other’s concern. Why don’t they actually mean that instead of “it’s between two people and, oh, yeah, the government because we can’t possibly fathom successfully living our lives without the government directing everything we do”. Bringing the government into it does make it everyone’s business and therefore exactly the opposite of who liberals typically say it shouldn’t be the business of.

          Thanks for accusing me of determining what is correct for others. I’ve never claimed to do so. My beliefs are my beliefs. They don’t affect others and it is wrong if their beliefs affect me.

          • Steven Resnick

            The CEO never said anything remotely to that and the reason it was created by Christiannews.net is to get views for their article by misleading hapless Christians who will view the title as what Schultz actually said, when he didn’t.

            He has no problem with Christian marriage nor does he have a problem with gay marriage, he’s equal opportunity. He never came remotely close to saying anything about religion in his speech and he got a standing ovation.

          • holoh

            So, you have a problem with Christiannews.net misquoting him, but you have no problem accusing me of trying to determine what is correct for others when I have done no such thing. A little hypocritical, isn’t that?

          • homemadepasta

            “Also, my belief is that the only valid marriage is a marriage under God. Other people aren’t married.”

          • Joe G

            Yeah holoh that sounds like you’re forcing your view of the world onto other people. By you know saying that whatever ceremony that couple had is invalid in your eyes.

          • http://trevor.dekoekkoek.net Trevor de Koekkoek

            its not a paraphrase, its a misrepresentation aka lie.

          • Chuck

            people paraphrase all the time. u don’t see people getting sued for paraphrasing, because its not libel(aka not a lie).

          • holoh

            Please post a link to the lawsuit over this.

          • Matt

            Govt is involved in marriage because it was created by governments thousands of years before Christianity ever existed. people were getting married thousands of years before Christ supposedly walked the earth. Marriage was not created by God, it was created by institutions to bring families together to hold on to their wealth and to prosper. Various religions decided to incorporate marriage into their institutions. But anyone who thinks marriage was created by religion need to go back to basic schooling.
            And you are entitled to “believe” what every you want. But you live in a country of laws that you are required to abide by. If you don’t like the laws, then try to change them. But what you “believe” does not matter. You can believe the sky is purple. The law of the land trumps your personal beliefs. And if the law f the land s that any two consenting adults want to get married, that can. You don’t have to like it, but you have to legally accept it. And if you own a business and you discriminate against them because of your “beliefs” then you can loose you license since to get you license you swear to uphold the law and the rules of each municipality to have a business license. That’s why those two idiots with the cake shop up in Oregon lost their case. They broke the law and they bore the rules of their business license. Pretty simple. Really had nothing to do with the couple being gay, other than the owners made it about the couple being gay.

          • holoh

            No, marriage was created when God put Adam and Eve on earth, obviously.

            What I believe does not matter? Really? You can’t say “If you don’t like the laws, then try to change them. But what you “believe” does not matter.” Those two statements are blatantly contradictory. You believe slavery was perfectly ok and no one that believed it was wrong mattered until it was outlawed? Your position is moronic.

          • Debra Wehrly

            There is no evidence that Adam and Eve ever existed.

          • holoh

            None? How about being documented in the most produced book of all time? That is ample evidence. What you mean is that there is no proof. That is true, but that is also true of EVERYTHING that no longer exists but did in the past.

          • tyler

            I don’t remember Adam and eve in fifty shades of grey

          • holoh

            That’s not even the most produced book of the year.

          • scourge99

            Documented?
            Do you think the Iliad and the Epic of Gilgamesh are literal history too?

          • holoh

            So, nothing that was documented is true? I understand – you are saying that Darwin’s theory of evolution is not true. Got it.

          • homemadepasta

            A work of fiction is not “documentation.”

          • scourge99

            You are completely missing the point. Some things that are written are true. Some things are false. Some things are fiction. Some things are exaggerations or embellished. Some things are a mix.

            The problem you have is that you think just because its written down and people believe its true then it therefore MUST be true or is likely true. That is the mindset of someone who lacks critical thinking skills.

            The theory of evolution is quite a bit different than what Darwin proposed because of new information and data. And no scientist or intelligent person believes evolution is true just because its written down. Its true because there is a mountain of evidence and data which support it and none or very little that contradict it.

          • holoh

            LOL. Typical liberal. Not only is your position that what you believe is true and everything you don’t believe false, you are somehow the determiner of everything written down as fact or fiction. Good job showing your true and typical liberal colors.

          • http://batman-news.com Anna

            Except the obvious, which is nothing comes from nothing. It takes way less faith to look around you and believe in intelligent design than it does to believe something (that came from where?) exploded in space all by itself and that explains the dazzling array of life.

          • scourge99

            If something can’t come from nothing then where did your god come from? Nothing? Or has he always existed?

            If god has always existed then why can’t the universe have always existed or something else (not necessarily intelligent) that created the universe have always existed?.

            So which is it? Are you

            1) special pleading and arguing that only god can come from nothing?
            or

            2) special pleading and arguing that only god can always exist?

            Logic for the win.

          • homemadepasta

            A work of fiction does not provide documentation.

          • Joe G

            What about dinosaurs, fossils, ancient cities, the list goes on and on. Dinosaurs no longer exist today, but we know they existed we have evidence. There is no evidence that Adam and Eve existed.

          • homemadepasta

            Please enjoy your “Adam and Eve” fantasy, but learn to accept your fantasy is irrelevant in the eyes of the United States Constitution.

          • Chuck

            uh, you obviously don’t know history. The old testament, which predates Christianity by thousands of years, mentions marriage. Your argument is invalid.

          • scourge99

            Yea, marriage was 1 man and many wives. And they were his property. Still want to live in the dark ages?

          • homemadepasta

            Marriage predates the entire Bible.

          • homemadepasta

            “Thanks for accusing me of determining what is correct for others.”

            “Also, my belief is that the only valid marriage is a marriage under God. Other people aren’t married.”

            This habit anti-gays have of telling whatever lie sounds convincing to them at the moment has been the undoing of their anti-gay agenda.

        • http://www.barefoothippiegirl.com/ Barefoot Hippie Girl

          I agree with you. I do not support same sex marriage, but I do feel they skewed his words. That is not fair.

        • John McMickle

          Who created the rules and benefits that you describe? the Government it is up to the government to correct it, the solution that the Government has chosen is not acceptable to some people. The number of people that it is unacceptable to outnumber the people impacted by a very large number come up with another solution. Problem solved.

        • Louise A. C

          So you support having many wives as was done in the bible.

        • Fiona Mackenzie

          For starters, your very first sentence is a lie. Shall we continue?

        • rthomp8363

          company officials told those who support Biblical marriage that they “can sell [their] shares in Starbucks and buy shares in another company.”

        • Frank W Brown

          Keep blabbing, you WILL get whatever you have coming, PERIOD!

        • Sams_1

          Why do you capitalize Buddhist and not (the ignorant title by the way) christian god…you show your hand here Jews are part of “Biblical Marriage-did you EVER go to school? YOU have an insipid way of being . You really need an education besides YOUR prejudices Embarrassing for the rest of Americans when all other Races and Countries make fun of how stupid Americans are

      • homemadepasta

        You mean how this anti-gay publication places the term marriage in quotes when applied to same gender couples? Hilarious. We even know why anti-gays are unable to accept the fact that marriage equality is here to stay. Psychologists report that the most commonly observed symptom of the mental disorder homophobia is cognitive dissonance, an inability of those so afflicted to accept documentation that contradicts their deep-seated phobia and hatred of LGBT Americans.

      • 02Dave12345

        If someone promotes opposite sex, Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist marriage, they are also promoting non-Biblical marriage. You live in a very diverse country, get over it, you do not get to define marriage with your holy book outside of your own church.

      • Paul Carr

        Holoh, I guess you didn’t even actually read the article, maybe you didn’t quite understand it, or maybe Jesus was whispering sweet nothings in your ear at the time, distracting you.
        The article itself never once states he actually said what the title implies. The actual quote is given, and it has nothing to do with it, The author did a fine job of avoiding being libelous by never actually giving his full quote at any point where they try and claim he said it. You, sir, are one of the morons they knew they’d get to bite their hook without checking things out first

        • holoh

          I did read the article and came up with exactly what you did: “the title implies” (so it isn’t a quote” and “The actual quote is given” (in the article). You have ZERO argument.

          • Paul Carr

            And if you read it and get anything near what the title implies, which you seem to do, then your level of comprehension is at about the 1st grade level, and I recommend some remedial work. The actual quote, even as the article gives it, does not even come close to what the author of the article is trying to convey, which is an idea your pea brain seems to accept as fact

      • Guest

        This is my new favorite “most ridiculous comment ever”.

        • holoh

          Most ridiculous comment ever that was upvoted by 58 people so far? I think not.

          Then again, maybe by “most ridiculous comment ever” you actually meant “most logical and indisputable comment ever” since you apparently think small groups can redefine words and concepts to suit their narrow needs now.

      • Fiona Mackenzie

        You must realize that your people are lying when they say that Schultz “opposes biblical marriage.” TOTALLY WRONG. But you knew that; your people just lie a lot.

      • Elaygee

        Biblical marriage is one man and as many women as he can afford plus concubines which are live in prostitutes. And there are no such thing as illegitimate chikfren in the bible either.

      • scott

        holch…LOLOLOL….there is noodles lasagna, those who are blind have invisible television, there are sunglasses that are untinted, Gay Marriage is NOT “illogical,” it is different in that the gender of the two individuals who love one another and want to enter into a life long emotional, spiritual and financial relationship, that is all. Love, caring, support, emotions are not specific to only an interaction between a man and woman. Gay relationships have been since the beginning of civilization. They just did not come out for fear of the misunderstanding others may have. WE are no different than other married couples. Bring your mind out of our bedroom and stay with us in the living and dining room. I promise it will bring about a new view of us.

      • batcountry1

        Well you see, when you take a quote and directly remove the relevant bits and bury the true quote in the middle of the article that’s called “skewing” hoping for a clickbait read that will infuriate a reader.
        FYI there is lasagna with veggies instead of noodles by the way.

      • Doug Williams

        Except that “biblical marriage” has NOTHING to do with CIVIL marriage – except that, for many people, it is coincident with civil marriage. The church doesn’t issue you your marriage license, the government does.

        I applaud Starbucks for supporting the CIVIL rights off all Americans.

      • JC

        Sunglasses don’t work because of tint, and in fact a clear or lightly tinted lens is preferable to a dark lens. The reason is that dark tinted glasses can cause your pupil to dilate allowing more harmful radiation into your eye, especially if lens performance is low.

        UVA , UVB and glare is removed processes that aren’t dependent on tinting. So as to your statement saying they make no sense, that maybe true, only if you have no understanding what it is you discuss or base your beliefs on.

        • holoh

          Sunglasses do work because of tint. In fact, 100% of sunglasses are tinted. Because they cause the pupil to dilate, you also want them to block UV light. You have no idea what you are talking about.

          In addition, although they are, my examples don’t have to be 100% correct in order to prove my point to people who aren’t imbeciles like you. You aren’t my target audience, obviously.

          • JC

            Just because you say it, contrary to fact, regardless of the audience you believe you have. Pupil dilation is the opening and allowance of higher radiation levels into the eye.

            UV light is filtered out by material that doesn’t allow UV through, the material is clear. Think about sunscreen, once applied are you unable to see your skin, no cause the barrier doesn’t work like that.

            Tinting does not remove UV, as for glare, that is best removed via polarization, again process not dependent on a dark glass or plastic lense.

            I just brought it up not to argue against your point, just inform you of the error. If you wish to insult me because of that, then so be it, and to correct me wrongly, hilarious, you are slow of learning, aren’t you. Fire away,

          • holoh

            I never said that tinting removes or blocks UV. Please point to where I said that because I didn’t. You only have to lie and say I did because you know you are wrong. I said the purpose of sunglasses is not to block UV. The purpose of sunglasses is to decrease the amount of visible light going into the eye so that it is more comfortable to see in bright sunlight. As a side effect of this, the pupil dilates, driving a need for them to filter UV.

            This is similar to safety features such as seat-belts and airbags in cars. The purpose of a car is not to protect you from a crash; it is to get you from place to place. However, as a side effect of the danger imposed by cars that travel at high speeds, they have a need for these safety features.

            In summary, I am not in error and you are a moron.

          • JC

            Ok, please go and learn about how polarization reduces the amount of light and the glare, plus UV filtering is included has nothing to do with the sunglasses causing dilation. Our eyes are very easily damaged by UV energy, much easier than your skin which contains melanin protection against UV. Insult me all you wish, you only showing just how small minded and ignorant you are. I’ll leave you to your target audience of those agreeable with your outlook. Off topic as this all was. anyways.

          • holoh

            ^ Winner, in other words
            |

    • Wade Newton

      They are anti 2nd Ammendment too dip shit.

    • Richardson McPhillips

      Joining an action before the Supreme Court to overthrow federal law defining marriage is pretty much holding a position against that law, and that definition..

    • D. Long

      Starbucks backed efforts to legalize same-sex “marriage”. If you want to be a diverse company you stay out of controversial issues like this. Plain and simple.

      • homemadepasta

        Why? There aren’t enough anti-gays left to organize a boycott. Anti-gays have NEVER staged a successful boycott. Their most notorious attempt at a boycott was against Disney over 20 years ago. It was such a failure that Disney BOUGHT ABC FOR CASH at the time.

        But the first boycott LGBT Americans organized in 1977 resulted in the Florida Orange Juice people dumping their anti-gay spokesperson, who never performed professionally again after a 1978 concert in Chicago.

      • Merlyn7

        They want to be a company that supports their employees’ happiness. Plain and simple.

    • Phil B.

      I’m not a coffee person, but they make a pretty decent Italian Soda. Think I’ll go have one.

    • Gregg Powers

      sure your right here? Huff post, liberal bastion, says the same thing of Howard Schulz. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-fiorella/starbucks-enters-same-sex-marriage-boycott-_b_4203752.html sounds like you might be trying to sway people away from the boycott

    • Brenda

      Have you ever read a bible? It tells us to raise our children in the way they SHOULD go. It most DEFINATELY takes away the correct EXAMPLES to our youth especially. We SHOULD love the homosexual and be friendly….BUT….withholding our money from companies that support the lifestyle of homosexuality and casting our votes IS NOT violent OR hatefilled. Its our responsiblity as a servant of the MOST HIGH God. If you wont stand FOR your own beliefs..(marriage IS between one man and one woman…per the Word of God) …what WILL you stand for??? Nothing. The only choice a Christian has is to choose whether they will obey the Word of God.

      • Joe G

        Wait so you’re saying to love homosexuals and then you say to withold money from companies that support homosexuals? Not making much sense there. Oh putting things in all caps does not convey your message any clearer.

    • best9rfan

      Anyone who has the idea that 2 people of 1 gender can be married are DEAD WRONG!!!!!!
      God created marriage as 1 man and 1 woman, NOTHING ELSE!!!!!!

    • Tom Wright

      Now if you’re talking about Chic-Fil-A I’d say you’re right about smearing and skewing.

    • donna harig

      You need to read the whole article,you missed something!

    • Cindy

      Which is exactly what both sides are doing. One side is no different than the other. Freedom is freedom. Whether it is religion or personal. He is only backing this to fill his pocket. He does not have any thoughts other than that.

    • rthomp8363

      How do you take “if you support traditional marriages to sell their shares and go support another company” as freedom of choice?

    • Frank W Brown

      Can you READ?

    • Tomira

      You have my support. The title of this article states “if you support Biblical marriage, Sell your shares”. He was quoted as saying “If you feel, respectfully, that you can get a higher return than the 38% you got last year, it’s a free country. You can sell your shares in Starbucks and buy shares in another company. Thank you very much.”

      But, of course, it has to be twisted to be anti-Christian.

    • Shari Peterson

      Reread the article. He’s saying if you believe in biblical marriage, implying you only believe in biblical marriage – so gay marriage wouldn’t fly in your book, sell your shares. I’d love to see his response to Netanyahu’s promise that Talmudic law will be the law of Israel in the future since Talmudic law is Sanhedrin and it believes in such extreme measures as death penalty in some examples of people who engage in sodomy. Sanhedrin law is what was operating under which Jesus was killed.

    • Humble Servant

      Tom Stobhar from the organization cited that the company’s stance affected shareholder earnings after Starbucks backed efforts to legalize same-sex “marriage” in Washington state last year. Can one back both?

    • Royce E. Van Blaricome

      You outright lie and then call this article a smear job?! Starbucks did hold a position against “traditional marriage” on a number of occasions. They promoted SSM on their coffee cups. By their own CEO’s remarks he’s recognizes “diversity”. If you are not for “traditional marriage” you are against it. If you are not for God, you ARE against Him!

  • Dan Miller

    if you support biblical marriage boycott Starbucks

    • Steven Resnick

      Do you even grasp what the concept of biblical marriage is, cause I really doubt that you do.

      • Debra Wehrly

        A lot of people do not realize how much marriage has evolved since the biblical days. Whenever I hear anyone talking about “biblical marriage” I just want to cringe. The biggest misconception is that biblical marriage is that of between a man and a woman. The truth is that it is and I is not. Polygamy was widely practiced in the good old biblical days, even among the patriarchs. That was the norm. Biblical marriage can also take place between a woman and her rapist. How many people today would endorse that? The list goes on…

      • Beach Actor

        Well you’re wrong on that. After trying twice to post Rebuttal to biblical marriage both post were removed- which tells me that this entire blog is bias

    • homemadepasta

      You mea like Eve “marrying” Cain? Like Solomon’s 700 wives and 300 concubines?

      Don’t forget David and Jonathan.

    • Merlyn7

      Which coffee shop promotes having multiple wives?

  • lee metzger

    So Mr. Schultz, how does this work? I’m supposed to be tolerant of gay marriage, but it’s okay for you to not be tolerant towards those who believe marriage is between a man and a woman? (Which, by the way, biology and nature kinda point in that direction for anyone whose brains haven’t fallen out).

    • Ashley

      He never said he didn’t tolerate it, I swear people need to learn to read.

      • lee metzger

        You have strange perceptive abilities. So telling people to sell their shares who believe in biblical marriage is tolerant then? Educate me as to how.

        • http://trevor.dekoekkoek.net Trevor de Koekkoek

          read. he didn’t say that

        • Matt

          He never said that. You are inferring that. And we wonder why we are so far down on the educational scale compared to the rest of the world. READ WHAT HE SAID.

          • lee metzger

            The shareholder merely made a point connecting less shareholder earnings with the samesex marriage stance, and Schultz embarrassed him by telling him he could then sell his shares if he felt the way he did. He didn’t say it in the exact words of the headline above, but he may as well have. He hung himself anyway last year when he came out in support of samesex marriage. Those of us who are a little up the “educational scale” as you put it know full well that samesex marriage means the destruction of what defines a family, as well as affirming the gay lifestyle. Get over the fact that many of us simply don’t agree with that lifestyle and for Schultz to affirm it lost him a ton of business. He made his decision, let him live with the ton of business he lost because of it.

          • Osowoofy

            methinks you’re not quite as high up on that scale as you present yourself to be. seems to me that Starbucks is doing quite fine without the haters.

          • Debra Wehrly

            Actually, I think the opposite is true.

          • homemadepasta

            You’re correct, Debra Wehrly, scientists have proven it by studying same gender parents and their children for over 40 years now.

            “Children deserve to know that their relationships with both of their parents are stable and legally recognized. This applies to all children, whether their parents are of the same or opposite sex. The American Academy of Pediatrics recognizes that a considerable body of professional literature provides evidence that children with parents who are homosexual can have the same advantages and the same expectations for health, adjustment, and development as can children whose parents are heterosexual. When 2 adults participate in parenting a child, they and the child deserve the serenity that comes with legal recognition.”

            http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;109/2/339

          • Deanna

            Have you or any of your fellow Christians been divorced? Seems to me like straight people have been doing just fine ruining what defines a family. Right? My marriage personally has not hurt the definition of family one bit! You’re just ignorant of what actually defines a family. Love. Respect. Support. Learning. Growing. Caring. That’s all it takes no matter what your family unit looks like.

          • lee metzger

            Wrong about straight people ruining what defines a family. The standard is what I’m talking about, a biological mother and father and their children, an institution that has served civilization just fine for thousands of years. Just because people ignore the “standard” and do things that break up the marriage is no reason to jettison the standard altogether. And as a woman, you should know right well that a young girl wants to talk to a mother about certain issues, not one of her two dads. Ditto the young boy who has two mothers. Some of us love the family unit too much to see it torn apart by a group of political activists who could care less about marriage in general, using that as a springboard to shove acceptance of gayness down everyones’ throat whether they like it or not.

          • homemadepasta

            No matter how many times anti-gays SHRIEK that the same gender parents and their children down the street are “destroying the family,” we all see how happy that family is, and how well their children are doing.

          • lee metzger

            We do? That’s not what I see…..and YOU don’t see that either. The traditional model of the family has served civilization well for thousands of years and shouldn’t be altered because of modern whackjobs who to be kind, are totally confused about gender and gender identity.

          • homemadepasta

            No one is fooled by those standard anti-gay lies.

        • homemadepasta

          Spare us this “believe in biblical marriage” nonsense. State clearly what you want, which is to deprive LGBT Americans of Equal Protection Under the Law.

        • Merlyn7

          He said to sell their shares if they felt another company would provide more than a 38% return.

    • Steven Resnick

      You are truly clueless, the said person you were referring to made a comment about disappointing numbers, Schultz merely pointed out the 38 percent return and if he wasn’t happy with it, to go sell his shares and find a company where he can find a bigger return.

      It has nothing to do with not being tolerant of an opposing views, he made a suggestion because someone complained about his rate of return.

      Also, it’s perfectly fine for a CEO to stand up to someone who has a narrow minded ignorant view.

      • lee metzger

        Starbucks voted to oppose the Defense of Marriage Act. They’ve asked for their own problems. As far as a narrow minded, ignorant view, it is not ignorant to oppose any legislation that will totally uproot the bedrock of the traditional family. And do tell me, ignorant one yourself. In 2001 the CDC HAD to report that 1 in 5 sexually active gay and bisexual men carry the aids virus. So tell me now that these people are interested in marriage? Some of us aren’t so stupid.

        • Steven Resnick

          Uproot the traditional family….The traditional family has gone extinct and it happened a long time ago. So it’s obvious you’ve been living under a rock.

          50 percent of marriages end in divorce, yeah how’s that for traditional family.

          You’re citing a stat from 13 years ago to make a useless point, which is even more hilarious and again shows your ignorant views.

          • lee metzger

            First of all, you’re the ignorant one. That study was from 2008 and was contrasted with a study done over 10 yrs ago. Yeah, I can tell the traditional family has gone extinct. Kids today are cosmic brats, women are killing themselves trying to raise their children without a man, and men see women as little more that sperm deposit boxes. You’re a cosmic idiot, you really are. It clearly doesn’t matter what stat I give you, you’d just come back with your progressive bilge. Like I said smarta**, some of us aren’t so stupid, And yeah, since 50% of marriages end in divorce, no fault of the institution, do you really expect me to buy the idea that gays want to get married? HAHAHAHAHAHA.

          • Steven Resnick

            I’m the ignorant your post clearly states “In 2001 the CDC HAD to report that 1 in 5 sexually active gay and bisexual men carry the aids virus.”

            So now it’s 2008? Maybe you need a refresher court on how to come up with your facts.

            Really single women are killing themselves trying to raise their children without a man.

            Interesting that’s why over the last decade there’s more single parent families where it’s the man, not the woman raising the children.

            Amazing how facts can escape you.

            Funny how you call the children of today cosmic brats, yet with so many single parents families what’s the fault of that?

            Oh yeah Christian ignorance as the US leads in developed countries in teenage pregnancies .

            Go take your nonsense elsewhere.

          • lee metzger

            You obviously don’t even research online yourself to check on studies. I misspelled, the CDC study was from 2010, but no, in your zeal to criticize, you can’t even check on the stat yourself. As far as single women “killing” themselves, that’s not literally true. I assumed with your enlightened mind you’d get that but obviously not. The clear point is that women are finding it very hard to work a fulltime job, and then come home and be the parent too. But I suppose you’d say that’s just the way it is today, and they’ll just have to adjust to our enlightened times. And the kids are brats because men are not around to do their job in the home. A woman can discipline the kid, but sorry, it’s just way different when discipline comes from the man. But why should I waste time with you? You obviously come from the political spectrum that revels in screwing up a society as much as possible, and refuses to see the real cause of it. Case in point, Christian ignorance has nothing to do with our teenage pregnancy rate. On the contrary, modern secularism and its relativistic, do whatever you want in your own eyes utter BS is the clear culprit there.

          • Steven Resnick

            You are hilarious. Misstated facts, can’t even get the right date, it was 2001, then 2008, now it’s 2010. Lol.

            It must be a sad lonely existence for you since all you do is put your foot in your mouth.

            You’re saying being a single parent is hard, well duhhhhhh! You are hilarious. Keep on commenting can’t wait for the laughs to keep on coming.

          • Debra Wehrly

            Actually, I know a few single mothers and fathers too who do a fine job at raising their children. Is it hard? Yes, of course it is, but not impossible. It is interesting that you cannot even have a civil discourse without making insulting and disparaging remarks. It is funny how you want to put Steven Resnick into a box.

          • homemadepasta

            Please tell everyone you can how much pleasure you derive from fantasizing that all LGBT Americans would get a disease, suffer and die. That’s one of the ways anti-gays have sabotaged their own anti-gay agenda.

          • homemadepasta

            This obvious pleasure anti-gays exhibit at their hope that all LGBT Americans would get that disease, suffer and die is one more reason normal, non-homophobic Americans condemn the anti-gay agenda.

        • homemadepasta

          This conversation is about legal marriage–but when you hear “marriage,” you THINK “gay sex,” huh?

          Readers who would like to see the scientific evidence for why anti-gay posters are so obsessed with what they IMAGINE same gender couples do in private should Google “Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies.”

    • Debra Wehrly

      Well, if marriage is only for reproduction, then perhaps we should ban infertile couples from marrying. Better yet, why don’t we legislate an age limit for people desiring to marry. After all, what would be the point of getting married if you cannot have children?

    • Deanna

      Marriage does not equal biology and nature. If that were a requirement, barren women or sterile men would never get married. (Just to give one example) By the way, LGBT people did not choose what sex to be attracted to or fall in love with. Just like I’m sure you didn’t have a choice along the way like, “Hmm, I’d love to be with the same sex but I’m going to choose to be with the opposite sex.” Sexuality is on a spectrum and it’s determined in our genetics. Marriage is about love, respect, commitment, support, learning, growing, and caring. That can be between any two consenting adults.

  • thetruthdealer

    i cant stand homos

    • SES V

      You sho is ugly and that’s thetruth!!!

    • Matt

      You know what they say when you protest too much . . . Maybe it’s your homosexuality that really has you scared.

    • homemadepasta

      Psychologists identified homophobia as a mental illness and published their results in the Journal of the National Institutes of Health in 1953, but Freud himself coined the term. Homophobia is the irrational fear, disgust, or hatred of gays, lesbians, and/or bisexual people, or of homosexual feelings in oneself. It refers to the discomfort one feels with any behavior, belief, or attitude (in self or others) that does not conform to traditional sex role stereotypes. Homophobia exhibits itself in the fear of knowing, befriending, or associating with gays, lesbians, or bisexual people; fear of being perceived as gay or lesbian; and/or fear of stepping out of accepted gender role behavior. Psychologists report that the most commonly observed symptom of the mental disorder homophobia is cognitive dissonance, an inability of those so afflicted to accept documentation that contradicts their deep-seated phobia and hatred of LGBT Americans.

      Please seek mental health care for your mental disorder.

  • Joshua Cohen

    This headline is journalistically disgusting. They didn’t say that at all. They said if shareholders could find a company with higher returns sell their shares and invest in that company. As a former journalist I’m offended. I am going to start a petition to boycott this Website.

  • Mindfullofthoughts

    As a ”Christian” site I’m offended you chose to use this headline for this article. The headline makes it appear he’s telling Christians to sell their stock when in reality he’s saying people upset with his stance on marriage wont get better than a 38% return rate… and that IS true. if you have to contort the truth to drive home a point you will fail.

  • Steven Resnick

    Funny how the title from Huffington Post is so much different then this narrow, attention grabbing, misleading headline.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickallen/2013/03/22/howard-schultz-to-anti-gay-marriage-starbucks-shareholder-you-can-sell-your-shares/

  • Steven Resnick

    Funny how the author doesn’t have the guts to name themselves and hides behind the name Editor, so it can’t be traced back to who actually wrote it.

    Coward!

  • Robert Conley

    The absolute worst cup of coffee I ever had came from a Starbucks in the SeaTac airport in 2007. I have avoided Starbucks since then.

  • Clae Brewer

    I wonder if Gays still eat at Chic-A-Fila?

    • Matt

      nope. And after their little boost in sales that’s to the Right Wing’s temporary support after the boycott, Chic-Fil-A posted their worse sales year in 15 years. That is why the owner apologized. Or did you not see that headline? That’s why they are now trying to get the gays back. Just like Coors did and Southwest Airlines. Once all you greedy Christians realize how much money gays spend, suddenly you find a way to “accept” them because it’s the “good Christian thing to do. Hypocrites!

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO-msplukrw

      • Clae Brewer

        Im sorry it’s hard for me to understand someone who don’t know what they are, but I can help. Try Jesus.

        • homemadepasta

          Maybe YOU should try Jesus, Clae Brewer, but the REAL Jesus, not the fake homophobic Jesus. We know that’s a LIE, because Jesus affirmed a gay couple. Read Matthew 8:5-13 and Luke 7:1-10. Many of us are familiar with the Gospel story where Jesus healed the servant of a Roman centurion. In the original Greek, the word that the Roman centurion uses in this passage to describe the sick man – pais – is the same word used in ancient Greek to refer to a same-gender partner.

          • Clae Brewer

            Let me guess you are yet another individual who embraced your sin that you desire God join in on your perversion. Tsk Tsk… 1Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

            Do your home work on the word EFFEMINATE And that’s in the KJV..oh and here is the NKJV translation just in case you want to do to a parallel comparison…
            1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
            Jesus loves you. I say that as an invitation to freedom in Christ.

          • Clae Brewer

            Pedos can justify there sin by twisting scripture, and? Here lets see if you can twist this one….Romans 1:27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

  • Nan Sampsel

    I don’t drink coffee & don’t shop at Starbucks, but I see no problem with what the company is doing. I am a Christian, but I do not force my beliefs on others. The US Constitution states that we all have freedom to any religious beliefs we choose. Therefore, it is unlawful to try to force another to live by your personal religious beliefs. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, because that’s all they truly are…beliefs. Just because someone believs something does not make them right. People can rant & scream “the Bible says…” all they want, it still does not give them the right to force their Belief in the Bible on others.

    • http://batman-news.com Anna

      Neither does it give you the right to mischaracterize stating what the Bible says as “rant”ing and “scream”ing. Odd position for a Christian to take.

  • Jokef1000

    A better approach is to just stop buying Starbucks Coffee…

    • homemadepasta

      How has that worked out? Are there enough anti-gays to make a meaningful boycott? Can you document their sales are off?

  • pokerwife1

    Read this article to Hubs and his response to the headline was that they could sell their shares and invest in another company or they could buy enough shares and take control of the company.

  • greywulf1064

    Their coffee is overrated and overpriced anyways

  • Stephen B

    I’ve read many of the comments here and for the exception of a few level headed individuals, most of the comments are emotional reactions to ideas which oppose ones world view. In other words, you aren’t making a case for your position that satisfactorily represents the ideology which you claim to support. Christianity is clear, yet many believers are ignorant to the very teachings which they vociferously defend. Let me attempt to clear a few things up for you. The bible says humans are depraved. That’s all humans not just the ones sinning in ways which offend your sensibilities. It also says, few will walk the narrow path which means most will reject the teachings of Jesus Christ and walk the broad path to destruction. The call to follow Christ is to individuals, not societies or cultures. No individual is capable of following Christ perfectly which is why we need a savior in the first place. Now take all of these facts regarding Christianity and tell me where it leads anyone to think that they should be railing against the behaviors of unbelievers, getting angry at unbelievers or boycotting their businesses? Doesn’t Christ say pray for your persecutors? Pray for your enemies? Pray for sinners? I just do not understand all of this emotional kerfuffle over humans acting like humans. Mt. 7:3.

  • http://trevor.dekoekkoek.net Trevor de Koekkoek

    the headline is an outright falsehood. Not so good for a Christian rag.

  • Guest
  • Matt

    I’m surprised that after Starbucks released an all Drag Queen commercial that your little Christian minds haven’t popped!

    Starbucks Drag video
    http://www.refinery29.com/2014/10/77084/starbucks-drag-queen-commercial

  • hiway280z

    MIXTURE: TRUE: Howard Schultz affirmed the company’s support for same-sex marriage at a shareholder meeting. FALSE: Howard Schultz said supporters of traditional marriage were not allowed to be Starbucks stockholders or desired as Starbucks customers.
    Read more at http://www.snopes.com/politics/sexuality/starbucks.asp#bejs59pATOfUi4JO.99

  • hiway280z

    I won’t boycott because he has his view. He did not tell share holders to get out. That is what the dems did with the chicken because they support traditional marriage. If they force it down our throat then yes I will boycott.

    • homemadepasta

      The chicken chain owner never supported “traditional marriage,” he gave millions in corporate profits to known anti-gay Hate Cults. He knew these anti-gay Hate Cults would commit criminal acts to throw elections with his money. No use pretending you don’t know about his aiding and abetting criminal activities.

  • Angela Shaw
  • Greg Hanson

    Funny, this article suggested towards the end that people were starting to sell their shares and boycott starbucks. Of crosue, history has proven this to be a farce as the stock is up now some 40 percent yet again,,, since this nonsense article was written. Too bad the far right and Christians have to lie to try and get people to listen to their bigotry and nonsense

  • Peter Castle

    The gay agenda is on a roll. It has invaded the culture and targeted the church from without and within.

    See “Vicky Beeching and the Lesbian Gospel” at http://t.co/CpHQtj5sGN.

    • homemadepasta

      No, it’s the churches themselves who now realize that Jesus NEVER attacked same gender couples. Anti-gays are just angry and want to deny any American our Freedom Of Religion once we figure out anti-gays are LYING about religion.

  • Marcia

    I personally support the idea that marriage should be between a man and a woman, but I don’t believe in punishing people for disagreeing with me. There was outrage in the Christian community when Chick-Fil-A was boycotted for taking a stand in favor of heterosexual marriage. When an executive at Mozilla was forced to resign for opposing same sex marriage, Christians were angry at the intolerance. Christians will never coerce anyone into changing their opinion. There has to be respectful dialog and willingness to accept the fact that others may never change their mind. I disagree with the leadership at Starbuck’s, but they have a right to their opinion, as I have a right to mine.

    • homemadepasta

      1) The owner of Chick Fil A donated millions in corporate profits to anti-gay Hate Cults that then used his money, with his knowledge, to violate campaign finance laws and throw anti-gay Hate Votes.

      2) The former CEO of Mozilla was not forced to resign, and the reason he resigned, as he said and Mozilla confirmed, is he was unqualified for the job and had already failed.

      • Marcia

        What you call “hate”, someone else might call “supporting morality”. It’s all in the spin. The owner of Chick-Fil-A broke no laws, nor did the groups to which he donated. The bottom line is that boycotting Chick-Fil-A didn’t make the owner change his mind. It actually increased his profit. People who disagree with each other are going to have to learn to peacefully co-exist. Throwing around words like “hate” doesn’t help.

        • homemadepasta

          The owner of Chick Fil A didn’t commit the criminal acts, but he aided and abetted those criminal acts, as he had arranged for those anti-gay Hate Cults to commit those criminal acts with his money. And, as for increasing his profit, yes, I know he claimed that. However, since his company is privately held, there are NO sales figures that have been verified by independent audit. To the contrary, he’s been desperately trying to “re-invent” his business, something no successful business does.

          If you don’t like normal, non-homophobic Americans noticing how hateful anti-gays are, then you should speak to the anti-gays. It’s up to them to stop acting so hateful if they don’t like being known for their hateful misdeeds.

  • Jimmy DL

    I might not agree with gay marriage, but equally I don’t expect those who aren’t Christians to act as the bible commands, also it is a heart change that is required first and foremost, the rest follows. Homosexuality is no different to sex before marriage or any other life choice which conflicts with what the bible says. Within a church family I would expect this kind of behaviour to be tackled, but we can’t just boycott any company which backs a non-Christian way to act. How about boycotting based on how a company treats it’s staff and suppliers.

  • GKSanDiego

    “Starbucks is using its resources to invalidate traditional marriage in the US and redefine the institution of marriage despite the strongly held views of so many of its customers, including me,” the petition outlines. “Therefore, I will no longer purchase anything from Starbucks until you change your corporate values to be more reflective of my own.”

    Good! Take your bigotry elsewhere and stop fouling the air at Starbucks. There has to be some rat-infested coffee shop that would welcome you and your bigoted, hate-filled mind.

  • Hrach Gevorgyan

    God, save the world from this unmoralities.

    • homemadepasta

      Yes, anti-gays are deeply immoral.

      • Hrach Gevorgyan

        It is your opinion becouse you are homemade poor quality pasta. Gays should be burned alive

        • homemadepasta

          Yes, we know anti-gays want to murder all LGBT Americans as well as anyone who disagrees with anti-gays. Please keep telling Americans how immoral anti-gays are. You’ve just about destroyed your anti-gay agenda by revealing your desire for genocide.

          • homemadepasta

            If any reasonable reader would like to see further evidence that anti-gays wish to commit genocide against LGBT Americans, just Wiki the founder of “dominion Christianity,” R J Rushdoony. In his book, “The Institutes,” Rushdoony wrote out of long list of Americans he wanted to murder.

          • Hrach Gevorgyan

            What do you understand from morality. If you speak about morals read Bible . You can find that what guys are doing it is a big sin. And secondly what you and people like you are doing I dont care. I care about those who are doing propaganda. So if you dont want to be burned shut up and dont appear in the public.

          • homemadepasta

            I’ve read the Bible. Jesus affirmed a gay couple. Read Matthew 8:5-13 and Luke 7:1-10. Many of us are familiar with the Gospel story where Jesus healed the servant of a Roman centurion. In the original Greek, the word that the Roman centurion uses in this passage to describe the sick man – pais – is the same word used in ancient Greek to refer to a same-gender partner.

          • homemadepasta

            “shut up and dont appear in the public.”

            Anti-gays are the ones in the closet now.

        • Merlyn7

          You want to burn people alive? Are you having any trouble with your religious conversion efforts because I might be able to point out why that is.

  • Lindsey Jones

    The author of this article should be ashamed of themselves. Any logically thinking individual would recognize the gapping obvious smear job taking place here. The CEO simply said shareholders who were unhappy with a 38% return could invest in something else. He never stated he was anti-christian or biblical marriage.

  • http://twitter.com/sharialawfan Steve Lawrence

    I never drank Starbucks anyway because a “frothy latte” always struck me as a beverage of choice for sodomites.

    • homemadepasta

      We all had a good laugh at that minister who said that tastes like the “sem*n of so*mites,” since it demonstrated he was claiming he knows what that tastes like!

      Readers who would like to see the scientific evidence for why anti-gay posters are so obsessed with what they IMAGINE same gender couples do in private should Google “Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies.”

  • Alan Becerra

    I believe people need to stop being so selfish with their views and understand the world holds over 7.125 billion (2013) we need to grow with an ideal view to connect with everyone and help out the only race really – the human race with includes EVERYONE. we are all different but we also have to learn and respect each other’s views.

  • april

    i have a daughter that is bi-sexual and was scared to tell me because i grew up in a home whom believing that a marriage was between a man and woman (BUT LOVE IS LOVE), BUT i am not that small minded to not realize my child has the right to marry and love whom she choose’s . it is her choice and no one should be able to say anything about it no matter what your faith is. gay,bi sexual, transgender, lesbian and so , it is there choice not anyone else’s and i stand up for all no matter what there sexual preference is. we live in the land were all are free and equal . we all should have Equal rights. as for you God and the bible you believe what you want, and let people live there own lives, gay people are not the problem it the straight people who are trying to make something out of nothing. leave gay people alone and deal with your own issues and problem with in your own home and family. BETTER YET KEEP YOUR NOSE OUT OF OTHERS PEOPLE’S BUSINESS . AS FOR THE BIBLE IT SAID DO NOT JUDGE OTHERS UNLESS YOU WANT TO BE JUDGED. I WONDER HOW MANY OF YOU WHO READ THE BIBLE REALLY FOLLOW THE RULES? I HAVE SEEN SO MANY CHRISTIAN ‘S GO TO CHURCH TWICE A WEEK AND LEAVE CHURCH AND BE THE MOST NASTY PEOPLE ON EARTH (HATE FULL AND RUDE AND SO…) WHAT A BUNCH OF BACK SLIDING HYPOCRITE…

  • Danielle Wonsewitz

    … is Starbucks against straight marriage? If they’re trying to support gay marriage then I applaud them. But being against “Biblical Marriage” is saying you’re against straight marriage.

    • homemadepasta

      Starbucks supports marriage EQUALITY. And “Biblical”? More Christian and Jewish denominations are marrying same gender couples than are trying to subvert the United States Constitution and force their peculiar, minority “beliefs” onto all Americans.

      • Danielle Wonsewitz

        You and Ben Tousey are the two dumbest human beings on this entire planet. Get off the internet and get an education. None of your arguments make sense and they’re in no way related to the comments you reply to.

        • homemadepasta

          Thanks for telling readers how terrified anti-gays are of the facts I post here, complete with documentation from reputable sources. Now, why don’t you take a look around here and notice how most of the posters, even here, reject and condemn your anti-gay agenda, and that most of the anti-gays here are obvious sock puppets.

          • homemadepasta

            “Get off the internet”

            Americans have noticed how desperate anti-gays are to silence anyone who disagrees with them.

      • homemadepasta

        These denominations will marry same gender couples in 32 US States and the District of Columbia: Affirming Pentecostal Church International, Alliance of Christian Churches, Anointed Affirming Independent Ministries, The Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists, Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), Community of Christ, Conservative Judaism, Ecumenical Catholic Church, Ecumenical Catholic Communion, The Episcopal Church, Evangelical Anglican Church In America, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Global Alliance of Affirming Apostolic Pentecostals, Inclusive Orthodox Church, Moravian Church Northern Province, Metropolitan Community Church, Old Catholic Church, Presbyterian Church USA, Progressive Christian Alliance, Reconciling Pentecostals International, Reconstructionist Judaism, Reform Judaism, Reformed Anglican Catholic Church, Religious Society of Friends (Quakers), Unitarian Universalist Church, United Church of Christ, Unity Church

    • Merlyn7

      At no point does the CEO say he opposes straight or Biblical marriages.

  • Candyapple!

    What if I keep my starbuck’s shares and use that money to promote traditional family values… after all, it’s a free country :-)

    • homemadepasta

      “Promote traditional family values” means attack the children of same gender American parents.

  • Candyapple!

    The purpose of marriage is to encourage families to stay together… like when the man gets his wife pregnant and they have other human beings that they created enter into the world… marriage is a mechanism to keep the man and woman together for the sake of the children that are produced from their union… whereas gays have to buy their kids or find a sperm donor…gays do not need to be married to do whatever it is they do… they can fight for civil unions and have all the benefits that married couples get. marriage should be reserved for heteros.

    • James Hickman

      Then why do we allow anyone to get married who can’t have children, or who can have children but decide not to?

    • homemadepasta

      Your opinion of the purpose of marriage is irrelevant to anyone other than yourself. Your various claims are not supported by any state’s laws.

    • Joe G

      So you’re saying that adopted children are somehow inferior to those born and raised by their biological parents and that the new parents of those adopted children somehow love them less than a biological parent would?

  • Aiden Garcia-Sheffield

    Lol…. Good luck getting rid of starbucks … #psl for life

  • Hickeroar

    The title of this article is a blatant lie. The CEO said nothing of the sort.

  • Deanna

    I like how when using the word marriage in regards to same-sex marriage it’s in quotations…. As if that’s a pretend kind of marriage. Marriage is not exclusive to those who believe in Biblical marriage. If it were, there would be a lot of straight couples who would no longer be considered married and they, too, would have quotations around marriage in this article. Even thousands of religious straight couples don’t fit the Biblical definition of marriage. Therefore, marriage shouldn’t be limited to those who believe in the Biblical definition of marriage. The CEO is simply expressing that. He is coming from a place of inclusion. Of human rights. Of love and understanding. No one is telling you YOUR marriage is wrong. Your short-sighted, close-minded, inconsiderate views about the exclusitivity of marriage are what’s wrong. There shouldn’t be a law withholding a right from a specific group based on different “beliefs.” Everyone should have the same right, then those who choose to practice it one way can and those who choose to practice it another way can as well!

  • Whatever1234

    The author posted this in a rage because someone doesn’t care to live life the way he wants them to.

  • homemadepasta

    We know why anti-gays are shrieking out increasingly bizarre, obvious lies like this
    “article.” Despite their efforts going back to Anita Bryant to keep LGBT Americans second-class citizens and at the far fringes of society, their misdeeds have placed anti-gays themselves at the fringe of society and unwelcome in America’s public life, such as the presidential Inauguration, while a gay poet spoke at that same Inauguration. President Obama awarded LGBT pioneer Harvey Milk with the Medal Of Freedom and the USPS introduced the US Postal Service stamp honoring Milk at the White House. Anti-gays have not been denied any rights, despite their specious claims that the US Supreme Court is “discriminating” against them when the Court prevents their attempts to subvert the United States Constitution’s guarantee of Equal Protection. Most Americans just laugh at anti-gays when they whine that their intended victims, LGBT Americans, are “the real bigots” or “the real haters.”

  • marcela

    I am so grateful to have seen this article! I will now be buying my coffee from this open hearted company who is inclusive and non judgmental. Where workers of all communities and religeons are free to work without discrimination. I will also repost it to get the eord out! You see… thete are fare more inclusive, compassionate Americans and Christians than bigoted ignorant folk who live in fear and judgment instead of love.

  • scourge99

    The author of this article FLAGRANTLY misrepresents what the Starbucks CEO said.

    How very Christian of the author to lie and misrepresent.

    • Joe G

      Hey don’t lump all Christians in with Anti-gays. Many of us are accepting of everyone

      • scourge99

        I agree not all Christians are anti-gay. I was trying to point out that the author intentionally misrepresents which isn’t a very “christian” thing to do. Especially on a Christian website.

  • Taxed Enough Already

    While I am against marriage being anything but one man and one woman—I agree with Jeff Beer. From the quotes used in this article, to back up the title’s claim, Schultz was saying go somewhere else if you think you can get a better return. That is not at all what the title implies. It doesn’t help any cause to mislead and it gives you, as a news outlet, less integrity. I hate being associated with people who intentionally mislead by half truths and omissions. How can I trust the accuracy of your news reports?

    • homemadepasta

      Virtually all anti-gays trade in deception. You can’t trust anything they claim to be accurate.

  • JE

    Regardless of your view on the topic of marriage, the CEO’s main priority is to maximize shareholder wealth. I believe he alienated a majority, and this will likely be reflected on the company’s bottom line. Not very smart in my opinion.

    • homemadepasta

      Can you provide us with some documentation that their bottom line has been damaged since this deceptive article was posted about 19 months ago?

      Sorry, anti-gays are NOT “the majority”:

      “[A] record-high 59 percent say they support same-sex marriage, while 34 percent are opposed, the widest margin tracked in Post-ABC polling. Support for same-sex marriage has changed more rapidly than almost any social issue in the past decade. In a Post-ABC poll in March 2004, 38 percent said same-sex marriage should be legal, while 59 percent said it should not, the same percentage now in favor of allowing gays to marry. Nearly eight in 10 say that gays can parent as well as straight people, up from just below six in 10 in a 1996 Newsweek survey. Sixty-one percent support allowing gays to adopt a child, up from 49 percent in 2006 and 29 percent in a 1992 poll by Time magazine and CNN. More than twice as many people consider being gay as “just the way they are,” rather than something they chose.

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/support-for-same-sex-marriage-hits-new-high-half-say-constitution-guarantees-right/2014/03/04/f737e87e-a3e5-11e3-a5fa-55f0c77bf39c_story.html

  • Quentin Dunmore

    well since you want Gay marriage, let’s include animal marriages to humans!

    i wonder what will they say if bill the sheep lover wants Betsy the sheep to marry will he allow it !

    • homemadepasta

      This is not a suitable place for you to seek an animal to marry.

      • Quentin Dunmore

        Gays and people who love to sleep animals are Biblacaly under the same umbrella

        • homemadepasta

          Nope, YOU are the one who wants to have sex with a sheep. YOU are the one who brought that up. The Bible does’t encourage you to have sex with animals.

          And don’t bother trying to drag Jesus down to the barn with you. We all know better. Jesus affirmed a gay couple. Read Matthew 8:5-13 and Luke 7:1-10. Many of us are familiar with the Gospel story where Jesus healed the servant of a Roman centurion. In the original Greek, the word that the Roman centurion uses in this passage to describe the sick man – pais – is the same word used in ancient Greek to refer to a same-gender partner.

          • Quentin Dunmore

            LOL!!!!… i know the truth hurts go cry somewhere else Sodemite!!!

          • homemadepasta

            You aren’t posting truth, you’re posting the same sort of LIES anti-gays always post.

          • Quentin Dunmore

            God will not violate His laws or commands that would make him a liar ….Sodomite!!! Leviticus 18:22

          • homemadepasta

            Something tells me YOU are violating Leviticus right now. Are you wearing a poly-cotton blend garment? Ever had ham or bacon? Ever touched a football? Ever cut your hair?

          • Quentin Dunmore

            Maybe in the book you call a bible it does but in mine The law of 1st mention stands from beginning to end !!

          • homemadepasta

            I’ve already proven what YOU are quoting is NOT the Bible.

        • Quentin Dunmore

          Thats what a Sodomite is !!
          One who lust after unnatural, (men with men and women with women) and Strange (barnyard and domestic animals) Flesh !!

          • homemadepasta

            How much time a day do you fantasize about “gay sex,” Quentin Dunmore? Scientists know why you do that:

            “Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies.”

            http://www.landman-psychology.Com/Homophobia%20Associated%20with%20Homosexual%20Arousal.pdf

            http://psycnet.apa.Org/journals/abn/105/3/440/

            An agency of the federal government, the National Institutes of Health, publishes a supporting study:

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.Gov/pubmed/8772014

            Here’s a video that illustrates that study:

            http://www.youtube.Com/watch?v=AEuDDvqYbVw

            How about a You-tube SONG that explains this?

            http://www.youtube.Com/watch?v=1CQg9f7z9eg&feature=youtu.be

          • Quentin Dunmore

            BTW don’t shoot the messenger…. take it up with the author !

          • homemadepasta

            You’re the one lying about Jesus. Jesus affirmed a gay couple. Read Matthew 8:5-13 and Luke 7:1-10. Many of us are familiar with the Gospel story where Jesus healed the servant of a Roman centurion. In the original Greek, the word that the Roman centurion uses in this passage to describe the sick man – pais – is the same word used in ancient Greek to refer to a same-gender partner.

          • Quentin Dunmore

            Sodomites and Servants are two different things even IF the servant was Male there is NO Sodomite authorization from God when he clearly condemns it in Leviticus and Romans chapter 1.
            this is the heresy you deal with when people try to make the Bible say what they want it to say instead of letting it say what it says !
            if god says it’s wrong … in the begging of the book you can be he will say it’s wrong in the end of the book as well !
            look up the rules of Bible study and learn the truth and come out and touch not the unclean thing !

          • homemadepasta

            No one cares how much anti-gays LIE about God and the Bible.

          • homemadepasta

            “In 1996, three researchers from the University of Georgia published a study in the Journal of Abnormal Psychology about the links between homophobia and homosexual arousal. The authors, Henry E. Adams, Lester W. Wright, Jr., and Bethany A. Lohr, started with 35 straight men identified as homophobic and 29 straight men that were not. Both groups were shown heterosexual, lesbian and gay male porn while their erectile responses were measured. “Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile erection to male homosexual stimuli,” reported the researchers.

            It was empirical evidence for a theory long popular among psychoanalysts: that those most hostile to gay people are often driven by terror and shame about their own desires.”

            http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/05/05/the-christian-rights-gay-problem.html

          • Quentin Dunmore

            KJV A.V. 1611 read and learn

          • homemadepasta

            You mean your FRAUDULENT Bible? No, thanks!

        • Merlyn7

          So are divorced people, right? Do you refuse to work for a company that allows its employees to get divorced?

    • homemadepasta

      Quentin Dunmore the sheep lover wants Betsy the sheep to marry.

  • http://www.suttonparks.com/ Sutton Parks

    This is a misleading headline. Howard Schultz did not say that.

    • homemadepasta

      Anti-gays always lie.

  • Quentin Dunmore

    god joined Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve!

    • homemadepasta

      Who joined Eve and Cain? God, right? No wonder Americans just LAUGH at that nonsense. Your sexual fantasies are no excuse for anti-gays to try to subvert our United States Constitution, especially since anti-gays are LYING about God.

      • Quentin Dunmore

        can you back it up with scripture?
        absolutely but you are free to try.. not so go for it !
        better learn this principle …. If gods against it .. so am I and if Gods for it so am I !! can you say the same ?
        no, you can say I am this and I am that … but the middle letter in sin …

        • homemadepasta

          Who cares about your FAKE “Scripture”? These denominations will marry same gender couples in 32 US States and the District of Columbia:

          Affirming Pentecostal Church International

          Alliance of Christian Churches

          Anointed Affirming Independent Ministries

          The Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists

          Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)

          Community of Christ

          Conservative Judaism

          Ecumenical Catholic Church

          Ecumenical Catholic Communion

          The Episcopal Church

          Evangelical Anglican Church In America

          Evangelical Lutheran Church in America

          Global Alliance of Affirming Apostolic Pentecostals

          Inclusive Orthodox Church

          Moravian Church Northern Province

          Metropolitan Community Church

          Old Catholic Church

          Presbyterian Church USA

          Progressive Christian Alliance

          Reconciling Pentecostals International

          Reconstructionist Judaism

          Reform Judaism

          Reformed Anglican Catholic Church

          Religious Society of Friends (Quakers)

          Unitarian Universalist Church

          United Church of Christ

          Unity Church

          • homemadepasta

            “can you back it up with scripture?”

            We’ve got something much better than your fake Bible. Marriage has been defined as a Constitutionally protected civil right by the United States Supreme Court 15 times since 1888. Please note the last two examples involve same gender American couples.

            Maynard v. Hill, 125 U.S. 190, 205, 211 (1888)

            Meyer v. Nebraska, 262 U.S. 390, 399 (1923)

            Skinner v. Oklahoma ex rel. Williamson, 316 U.S. 535, 541 (1942)

            Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U.S. 479, 486 (1965)

            Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1, 12 (1967)

            Boddie v. Connecticut, 401 U.S. 371, 376, 383 (1971)

            Cleveland Board of Education v. LaFleur, 414 U.S. 632, 639-40 (1974)

            Moore v. City of East Cleveland, 431 U.S. 494, 499 (1977)

            Carey v. Population Services International, 431 U.S. 678, 684-85 (1977)

            Zablocki v. Redhail, 434 U.S. 374, 384 (1978)

            Turner v. Safley, 482 U.S. 78, 95 (1987)

            Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pennsylvania v. Casey, 505 U.S. 833, 851 (1992)

            M.L.B. v. S.L.J., 519 U.S. 102, 116 (1996)

            Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. 558, 574 (2003)

            United States v Windsor 570 U.S. (2013)

          • Joe G

            Wooo!! My denomination is on there go UCC. Haha

  • homemadepasta

    We all know this article is full of routine anti-gay LIES. Anti-gays are even LYING about God and the Bible. Anti-gays DEFRAUDED the Bible! Modern Biblical scholars have proven the Bible was intentionally mistranslated relatively recently in order to provide “Biblical cover” for then-rising levels of homophobia. For example, the word “homosexual” didn’t even exist until 1870. Many major Christian and Jewish denominations condemn misusing the hate-based mistranslations to attack their fellow Americans and are marrying same gender American couples now. About 400 years ago, a group of religious authorities (sanctioned by King James I of England), secretly manipulated the English version of the Bible to reflect their own heterosexual attitude; they opposed the King kissing other men in public.

  • homemadepasta

    I’m still waiting for someone to prove that this alleged “boycott” of Starbuck’s by anti-gays has had any noticeable effect.

    When we examine the posts of anti-gays to seek a greater understanding of the mental disorder, homophobia, we note certain tendencies. Most anti-gays have built up an elaborate set of fantasies, such as that their tiny numbers are somehow “the majority.” When presented with the simple fact that a strong majority of Americans reject their demands to hurt and vilify LGBT Americans, anti-gays show they simply cannot accept any facts that contradict their deep-seated phobia and hatred for their fellow Americans who are LGBT.

  • PastorMark

    Two things. First, I support traditional marriage. Second, the headline bears false witness. The original challenge from the stockholder was that Starbucks’ position on gay marriage was adversely affecting the stock price. The CEO said to the questioner, not to every stockholder who supports traditional marriage, “If you think you can beat a 38% return, sell your stock and go for it.” It’s defensible to say, “I’m not going to Starbucks because I don’t want to support their stance on gay marriage.” It is indefensible to say, “Let’s boycott Starbucks because the CEO said those of us who support traditional marriage aren’t welcome as customers or stockholders.” In my opinion, this line of attack is very similar to the constant race-baiting from the Left. It is dishonest and wrong.

  • Clayton P. King

    I generally refrain from reading comments on articles like this because the troglodytes blow up the feed with their banter. Unless we’re going to allow men to have multiple wives, slaves and/or concubines, Biblical marriage hasn’t existed for a long time in America. That said, I applaud Starbucks for doing the right thing. If you don’t believe in same gender marriage, just don’t marry someone of the same gender. Otherwise, get your nose back in to your own business, quit worrying about everyone else’s, and enjoy the flipping 38% return on your investment. Jeez.

  • Serious Starsider

    The title is bullshit you Xtian liars.

  • Michaer

    I’m going to go get a Starbucks. This is pretty coo

  • http://batman-news.com Anna

    Regardless of my beliefs about homosexuality, I too deplore the disingenuous headline.

  • gskorich

    it has to do with return on investment. look at hobby lobby and allowing their employees access to birth control. they say no but then their 401k says something totally different. what is their response. silence. if you buy stock or shop based on your religious beliefs your beliefs have to go deeper than birth control and gay marriage.

  • Dan Miller

    For those of you that support same sex marriages or should I say relationships, here are a couple links to educate you about what Biblical marriage really is according to the Bible and not a CEO.

  • Dan Miller

    Since this blog removed my entire post because of the links we have to resort to posting scripture verses for some of the people here Don’t understand what biblical marriage really is. No where in The Bible does it state that a wife could be a man. This will be good for those who have not opened the Bible in a long time

    Eph 5:31
    Heb. 13:4
    Gen. 2:18, 2:23, 2:24, 5:25
    Matt. 19:4

    And those who still don’t believe the Bible is against homosexuality
    leviticus 18:22

    Buy your coffee at Seattle Coffee, Peet’s Coffee, and coffee bean.
    We no longer need to go to Starbucks

  • Skitchmoe

    The freedom to cast the dollar vote against a company through boycotting should be enjoyed by all. As an atheist I am thankful for my ability to boycott Chick-fil-A, Hobby Lobby, Barilla, etc., and I’m equally thankful that Christians have the same freedom. I’m at the same time not worried about the effects of the Christian dollar vote because of the trend toward secularism in this country. Religion is outdated and common sense, real-world practicality is slowly cutting into policy driven by supernatural thought. Just two examples are that gay marriage is now legal in more than half the states and “personhood” amendments repeatedly get trounced in elections. Support your causes regardless of their futility, it’s the American way!

  • Zendikite

    Wow, why are american christians such hatefull, self-entiteled egomaniacs? What happened to do unto others and love thy neighbour?

  • Tim

    Well I advocate dumping Starbucks because it tastes like it came from the bladder of a mangy cat, not for any other reason. We Christians ought to judge not lest we be judged. If non-Christians don’t want to accept our moral standards, who cares? There are enough professing Christians that don’t adhere to our moral standards that we should be teaching. Let the rest of the world figure morality out on their own. If our system truly is better, then show it, and the rest of the world will WANT to follow Christ. In the meantime, show love and mercy to your neighbors, not criticism.

  • zach morton

    Oh boo hoo, what a bunch of victims. How dare they hold a different view than you. You like their coffee buy it, if you don’t then don’t. Its funny how Christians want everyone else to “Not care” about Chick-Fil-A’s stance on Gay Marriage, however, these guys take a stand for equal rights, and BOYCOTT BOYCOTT BOYCOTT. And news flash morons, Marriage wasn’t invented by Judeo-Christian ANYTHING.

  • Genevieve Elizabeth

    Bravo to Starbucks! I’m going to go there now and buy myself a venti green tea frapuchino.

  • Militaryguy

    How is Starbucks “invalidating traditional marriage?” From what I’ve seen, many of the participants in traditional marriage do a fine job of that on their own.

  • Pani B

    Now if only they’d pay their taxes….and made decent coffee they’d be perfect

  • Ghostrider127

    I’m not Islamic but I have on good info that Muslims don’t support gay marriage either. Mr. Shultz, dare you comment on that or will you sissy out!??

  • Indra S

    Some people love to eat junk food like McDonald and I am cool with that. But if they start demanding other people to label their big Mac organic in the name of food equality then I will have a serious problem with that. Being gay is your choice but please leave the label marriage out of it because your partially hydrogenated union is not “organic” and it will never be equal to an “organic” marriage.

  • Shanna

    I’ll gladly invest in and purchase products from companies like this. I will not invest in or give my business, however, to companies like Hobby Lobby or Chick-Filet. Those companies are free to take the positions they do. As a U. S. citizen, capitalist consumer, and seminary trained Christian, thank goodness I am free to refrain from supporting their views with my patronage.

  • Jon Kay

    This is an embarrassment to journalism and Christianity alike. Once again we see the ongoing pattern of religious bigots with an agenda skewing the truth and lying in order to hurt people.

  • Scott Woods

    @Jeff Beer – Did you really think you could change the mind of ignorant a-holes that only practice christianity when it’s convenient? Or expect them to be tolerant of others even though is supposed to be part of their practice. You cannot change small minded idiots brainwashed from practically birth to be kind and loving towards their fellow man. Shame on you for trying to educate the socially disabled!

  • Bob Simms

    I’m not sure where who sticks what in other relationships ‘opposes’ my marriage or my relationship with God. Am I any less married because couple cohabit? Am I further from God because someone I have never met is an atheist? By all means boycott Starbucks for their support of gay marriage, but don’t dress it up as ‘opposing’ biblical marriage (which presumably includes the polygamy blessed by God in the OT). I’m pretty sure the vast majority of Starbucks employees are in heterosexual relationships. Starbucks are not calling for homosexual marriage to be compulsory or heterosexual marriage to be invalidated.

  • Constance Whitley

    This is a free country. Fanatical right wingers scream about “too much government” but want to legislate & dictate morality. Opposing gay marriage isn’t a business decision, it’s a personal choice. These nuts would bring back the Salem witch hunts if they could.

  • Joey Tai

    Just because a company supports same sexed marriage does not mean they are “opposed” to biblical (traditional) marriage. They never said that. It is about a company having good social conscience, diversity and equality; it’s NOT about taking rights away from straight people as this article is trying it’s damnedest to make you think. Just read what is in the quotation marks, all of the other word-twisting writing is to promote outrage. This is exactly the kind of thing that makes me loose respect for organized religion. You should be ashamed.

  • Bob Cleveland

    The article does definitely mis-state things. The headline is definitely dishonest and Christian publications should have nothing to do with dishonesty.

    There’s also the fact that the article cited is nearing two years old, anyway.

  • ken chow la

    They should also try to stop using Apple products. Let’s see how it works out for them.

  • Paul Carr

    Even the article you use never once states that was what his comment was. The quote, per your article was, “If you feel, respectfully, that you can get a higher return than the 38% you got last year, it’s a free country. You can sell your shares in Starbucks and buy shares in another company. Thank you very much.” after complaints that investment return was down due to people picketing over the fact that the company supports gay marriage, not denounces traditional marriage.
    You tried to used the quote out of context with this At the annual Starbucks shareholder’s meeting this past Wednesday in Seattle, company officials told those who support Biblical marriage that they “can sell [their] shares in Starbucks and buy shares in another company.” but notice that only part of that is in quotes. Good job avoiding a libel lawsuit there.
    Nice try, I’m sure there are a lot of morons who will buy into your article’s title without reading, or just outright ignoring the facts.

  • John

    This company should be run out of business. All of the upper management that supports Homosexual marriage are traitors to America and enemies of God and Christianity and should be hanged!!!!!!!!!! They and the business should be driven from the land!

    • Joe G

      If you try it I think you’ll be the one hanged.

  • Rex Botengan

    Which “Biblical Marriage” are we now upholding? One man and several wives or one man one wife and several concubines? So if you believe in having multiple wives then you should dump your coffee stock and purchase pharmaceuticals instead.

  • runnerin1

    He later stated that if you turn our logo upside down it is a figure of the Satanic Baphomet. I thought by now you people knew who we stood with. Next question?

  • My relationship is with God

    I don’t care if your religious, straight, Gay, black, white or atheist. coffee is coffee and I love my coffee. And I’m so Sick of the discrimination BS. I’m glad they support equal rights! One sinful human cannot judge another. That’s the pot calling the kettle black. God will be the judge in the end. So sit down, shut up and drink some damn coffee!

  • Louise Bigbee

    Lets get all of thestock holders together and remove him as C E O,

  • Alex Melia

    It is reasonably to assume that Starbucks believe their stance won’t actually lose them money, but it is still wonderful to see a corporation speaking out and speaking up against the bigots (yes there are no other names for you lot). I feel it a duty to speak up against religious tyranny every time it raises its head.

  • whamprod

    My problem with Starbucks’ advocacy isn’t what they advocate. I’m a liberative conservatarian and a born-again Christian, and I don’t think government has a place at the wedding altar at all – regardless of one’s personal attractions. My problem with Starbucks’ advocacy is that they are advocating anything at all. Corporations should stay out of politics…..and I would say this even if Starbucks were promoting Biblical marriage. The fact that corporations meddle in politics has done more to damage Constitutional government than almost any other influence.

  • Ed Selby

    Your headline is a lie – it truly “bears false witness”. You don’t even provide that quote in the article!

  • Guest

    As a Christian I am embarrassed

  • Kelly Holmes Marconi

    As a Christian I am embarrassed by the judgmental and slanted tone of this article. Starbucks has no problem with traditional marriage and supports it fully, just as it supports the rights of gay couples to marry. It supports equal rights for all people, straight and gay.

    This article is slanted and untrue. It’s this type of judgmental trash that has given Christians a horrible reputation, and as a Christian I’m very offended.

    If you are going to be judgmental (which The Bible clearly lists as a sin, much more so than homosexuality) then at least be accurate in what you accuse others of. Never has Starbucks said they don’t support Biblical marriage.

  • Sovereign Mary

    How to quickly skin a cow … Dip it in a vat of Starbucks coffee.

  • WhateverDunce

    Call Gay Marriage ‘equal’ if you want, but everyone knows it’s a joke.

  • hussey

    How are they “against biblical marriage” or “invalidating traditional marriage”? Your story is hogwash propaganda because of the extraneous wording like that, yet it’s actually being promoted/shared by those who agree with the Starbucks CEO because of right he is!

  • kmartin173

    Biblical, no. Mirriam Webster’s, yes.

  • Jay Faulconer

    I find it amusing that the petition states “Starbucks has deeply offended over half it’s US customers” yet has only 49,000 signatures on it. How they arrived at their math is curious.

    The fun fact in the whole matter is that if you don’t like gay marriage you don’t have to enter into one. You can condemn it all you like, isn’t Freedom of Speech fun? I exercise my freedom too, by not drinking $8 cups of coffee. I’m not telling YOU not to spend $8 on a cup of coffee, I’m just saying it’s ridiculous to me to consider doing myself.

    The problem with this country is not gay marriage, it is the inflated sense of self that so many are experiencing. News Flash: No one cares what I think, and no one cares what you think either.

    Starbucks
    has deeply offended at least half its US customers – See more at:
    http://christiannews.net/2013/03/24/starbucks-ceo-to-shareholder-if-you-support-biblical-marriage-sell-your-shares/#sthash.roGMlIkk.dpuf
    Starbucks
    has deeply offended at least half its US customers – See more at:
    http://christiannews.net/2013/03/24/starbucks-ceo-to-shareholder-if-you-support-biblical-marriage-sell-your-shares/#sthash.roGMlIkk.dpuf
    Starbucks
    has deeply offended at least half its US customers – See more at:
    http://christiannews.net/2013/03/24/starbucks-ceo-to-shareholder-if-you-support-biblical-marriage-sell-your-shares/#sthash.roGMlIkk.dpuf

  • Larry

    Jeff, I agree with you on one point, I don’t have the right to push my beliefs on anyone, but that is a two way street. This is supposed to be a democratic society and I have seen groups want a vote on things until they lose the vote then they want a group of judges to decide and they keep pushing until they get their way so who is pushing their views on whom?

  • Iris Tedder

    AMAZING isn’it it that he is so HYPOCRITICAL… … In 1982, Schultz married Sheri Kersch; they have two children: Eliahu Jordan (born 1986) and Addison (born 1990)……. BIBLICAL MARRIAGE ….THAT HE NOW DENOUNCES?? WOW..WONDER HOW MZZZZ SHULTZ feels about all HER UNBIBLICAL/BIBLICAL MARRIAGE?

  • daves1412

    I’m going to go to Starbucks more often now. Well done Mr CEO. I can assure you the majority of international customers support, rather than reject, your position.

  • daves1412

    If we want to genuinely resolve disagreements, I suggest we talk, rather than shout. And more importantly listen. Listen. Think about that word for a moment, and what it truly means.

    Being Christian is a choice. Being gay is a fact. How can facts be right or wrong? That makes no sense to me. You choose, through your faith or values, how to respond to the world around you. The world is changing all the time, and so do all faiths. No faith was ever intended by its originators to continue unchanged in its detail, because if it did, then it would become irrelevant at some point.

    There is no formula, there are only principles. And the purpose of every faith is to express and reinforce the positive principles that bring out the best of humanity.

    So if you are Christian, you can – and should – choose how to express your beliefs. I suggest positive messages rather than negative ones are the best way to make the world a better place, increase the love we feel for each other and just as importantly, the other creatures with which we share this very unique planet.

    For that is the message of the Bible. The only message that matters, ultimately.

  • isthisnameokay

    How can anyone purchase any products from this communist front.

  • chthompson

    I will not buy another cup of starbucks’ crappy overpriced sodomy-promoting marriage-perverting coffee again. And I won’t buy their shares either.

  • Larry Currid

    Starbucks is over priced and overly full of themselves. This is just another example of the Progressive inclusiveness that they want to force down your throat – with that expensive coffee. I don’t do Starbucks and I will never do Starbucks.

  • flosamuels

    Starbucks is not telling you how to believe only what your options are if you don’t agree with them. To be honest, I appreciate you bigots not wanting to go to Starbucks. I don’t need trying to force me to accept your beliefs while I am trying to enjoy my coffee.

  • Sandra Dudley

    God hates the sin but loves the sinner. So should we. I hate homosexuality but not the homosexual. I hate abortion but not the abortionist. Often the quote of Jesus ” judge ye not” is miss used. We are all called to have good moral judgment. We can judge actions but we can’t judge people because we don’t know a person’s culpability, only God does. It is no more a matter of being judgmental to say stealing is wrong than it is to say anything else is wrong. That includes sexually deviant behavior. Expressing your opinion about right and wrong, good and evil isn’t being judgmental. It is exercising your constitutional right of freedom of religion and speach. There are many places in the new testament that tells us to admonish the sinner. One such place is James ch5 vs 19 -20. It is an act of love to tell someone what they need to hear rather than what they want to hear. As for deviant sexual desires, homosexuality is just one of many. There is adultery, fornication, beastailty, necrophilia, pedophilia and many others. Should we accept them as normal just because people want to do them too? We either have moral standards or we don’t. The purpose of marriage wasn’t to give people permission to engage in sexually deviant behaviors but to give offspring legal connection to their parents. by changing it to include gay marriage we are changing its purpose thus opening up a whole Pandora’s box of sexually deviant behavior seeking public acceptance by getting married.

  • deborah joy

    Never did like there coffee , I am a Tim Hortons Girl

  • jey king

    if this is true, isn’t the starbucks ceo discriminating shareholders that supports biblical marriage? where’s the “diversity” he is aiming to embrace when he gives preference to a specific ideology while rejecting another? Isn’t it a form discrimination? ironically, he says he believes in a free country with freedom of choices, but kicks out and fences out anyone that opposes his choice! where’s the freedom in that?

  • Dora flores

    the glbt people of this country number about 1.6%

  • JOHNNY HINDS

    As of now, I’m calling for a boycott for Starbucks Coffee from every freedom loving individual, Christian or non Christian, on principal and in the name of social consciousness. Their attempts at peddling anti-American, anti-Christian propaganda as part of their corporate marketing scheme is deplorable and has no place in the business world. The Radical, Communist Left has used Boycotts since the 1920’s to further their destructive, hateful agenda, it’s time they got a taste of their own medicine.

  • My opinion.

    I would never buy coffee at Starbucks..

  • Barbara Dorsey

    Can’t this company just focus on selling overpriced coffee?

  • Dean Vaught

    Again! 2 roosters don’t make a chick. Neither do 2 hens.

  • Steve Buckley

    Sounds like reverse discrimination.
    Either believe as we tell you, or you’re not welcome here. How come bakeries are sued for suchlike, but a major corporation gets away with it, Scott free?

  • Margaret Ann Elder

    Biblical marriage — after reading the Bible entirely through, Biblical marriage seems to be one man having many wives. I’m not for that either! Seriously, Christ’s great commandments were to love God and to love our neighbors. And Jesus mentioned that we shouldn’t judge others.

    • Jim Deferio

      Margaret, are you serious? At the very beginning in Genesis 2:24 it was One Man + One Woman and Jesus reiterated that in Matthew 19:4-6 and Mark 10:6-9 and Paul affirms that in 1 Corinthians 7:2 and Ephesians 5:31.

      David and Solomon were in violation of Deuteronomy 17:17. Often the Bible reports events as historical narratives and it has no moral commentary. However, that does not mean that God approves of what the people in the narrative did. You really need to learn to read comprehensively.

      Jesus expects us to judge but not as hypocrites. In Matthew 7:1-5 the lesson is that when you do judge, make sure you remove the beam or plank from your eye first so that you don’t judge as a hypocrite.

      Jesus said to “judge what is right” (Luke 12:57) and to “judge with righteous judgment” (John 7:24). It seems that you have violated what Jesus said to do.

      • Margaret Ann Elder

        I am serious. As a retired English teacher and a person whose faith means a great deal, I stand by my decision to love others as Christ commanded and not to “cast stones.” That being said, I also believe that people may interpret the scriptures differently based on their own culture, education, and independent beliefs, so your opinion is valid to you, and mine is to me.

      • Margaret Ann Elder

        Yes, I am serious. As a retired English teacher with two college degrees, I feel that I am very competent in reading comprehension as well. I stand by my statement and my beliefs. Christ expects us to love all people and not to “cast stones.” My faith is very important to me, and my beliefs have been formed by lifelong teachings in my mainline church, my own personal reading and thinking, and the rural and eclectic culture that I was raised in and live in today. I am also aware that each individual forms his beliefs based on culture, educational level, parental and church teachings, and there are many interpretations of the Bible. I will choose to “love my neighbor.”

        • Jim Deferio

          Big deal, you have two college degrees. Having earned two science degrees myself and having completed about 230 semester hours of college coursework (undergraduate and graduate) I know for a fact that not all college degrees are equal. I could easily earn a degree in English but I doubt most English majors could earn a degree in mathematics and the sciences. But, really, who cares? What matters is what the Biible says and you don’t have a clue, do you?

          Do you know where “you shall love your neighbor as yourself” first occurs and what the context is? Let me help you. The context is in judging without partiality and in rebuking your neighbor if they sin!

          Leviticus 19:15-18
          “‘You shall do no injustice in judgment. You shall not be partial to the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty. IN RIGHTEOUSNESS YOU SHALL JUDGE YOUR NEIGHBOR.
          16) You shall not go about as a talebearer among your people; nor shall you take a stand against the life of your neighbor: I am the Lord.
          17) ‘You shall not hate your brother in your heart. YOU SHALL SURELY REBUKE YOUR NEIGHBOR, AND NOT BEAR SIN BECAUSE OF HIM.
          18″ You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF: I am the LORD.
          (NewKJV)

          • Margaret Ann Elder

            As a Christian, I pay a great deal of attention to the words of Christ in the four gospels. If I paid a lot of attention to some of the Old Testament rules, I guess I wouldn’t have short hair nor would I eat some of the foods I like. Christ’s two great commandments cover how we should behave towards God and each other.

          • Jim Deferio

            READ the Bible in context. Text without context is pretext.
            If one only read the four Gospels they would immediately see Jesus rebuking people, even His own disciples, and you would see that Jesus began His ministry by calling people to repentance. His disciples also preached repentance and that is recorded in the four Gospels.

            Do I have to spoon feed you???

        • Jim Deferio

          Big deal, you have two college degrees. Having earned two science degrees myself and having completed about 230 semester hours of college coursework (undergraduate and graduate) I know for a fact that not all college degrees are equal. I could easily earn a degree in English but I doubt most English majors could earn a degree in mathematics and the sciences. But, really, who cares? What matters is what the Biible says and you don’t have a clue, do you?

          Do you know where “you shall love your neighbor as yourself” first occurs and what the context is? Let me help you. The context is in judging without partiality and in rebuking your neighbor if they sin!

          Leviticus 19:15-18
          “‘You shall do no injustice in judgment. You shall not be partial to the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty. IN RIGHTEOUSNESS YOU SHALL JUDGE YOUR NEIGHBOR.
          16) You shall not go about as a talebearer among your people; nor shall you take a stand against the life of your neighbor: I am the Lord.
          17) ‘You shall not hate your brother in your heart. YOU SHALL SURELY REBUKE YOUR NEIGHBOR, AND NOT BEAR SIN BECAUSE OF HIM.
          18″ You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF: I am the LORD.
          (NewKJV)

  • Ryan Tippens

    OK….they are now SOLD……

  • David

    Why do you insist on continuing to treat discrimination against gay and lesbian people as Christian? Most Christians support marriage equality.

    • Jim Deferio

      OK, we all know that there already exists equality in marriage: a man who claims that he is “homosexual” is free to marry a woman and a woman who claims to be a “lesbian” is free to marry a man. Equality already exists. We all know that feelings do not dictate ontology and teleology.

      However, Starbucks is promoting the impossible and the perverse. For that it should be boycotted.

  • Ashley Fox
  • Jim Deferio

    Starbucks has been promoting homosexuality since at least 2005. Why are people surprised?
    OK, we all know that there already exists equality in marriage: a man who claims that he is “homosexual” is free to marry a woman and a woman who claims to be a “lesbian” is free to marry a man. Equality already exists. We all know that feelings do not dictate ontology and teleology.

    However, Starbucks is promoting the impossible and the perverse. For that it should be boycotted.

    • androgyne anode

      Starbucks should be boycotted anyway because they sell terrible coffee, your belief in imaginary sky monsters notwithstanding.

      • Jim Deferio

        Who says I believe in God? Where did I mention God or the Bible in my comment?
        Are you OK? Are you seeing things? Do you hallucinate much?

        What is your education level?

        • androgyne anode

          Considering the inanity of your ridiculous argument, and the fact that you are posting on a site called Christian News. I assumed the sky faery was your source of moral authority. I felt the assumption was fair.

          I guess your justification for your position is the even more inane #nohomo – sorry for giving you the benefit of the doubt. I won’t make that mistake again.

          • Jim Deferio

            Are you capable of engaging in intellectual discourse?

            I comment on many different sites. However, as a former atheist who purposely destroyed a Bible while an atheist, I gradually came to see the evidence for Christ and for the Bible (a collection of books written by independent authors over a time span of more than 1,400 years).

            Are FEELINGS reliable indicators of truth, moral values, and what direction one should take in life? Are FEELINGS rational? What is your epistemology? How do you know what you think you know? Please explain…

          • androgyne anode

            You and I clearly have a different standard for what we consider to be credible evidence. Personally, I strongly prefer peer review.

            Say hi to Santa for me.

          • Jim Deferio

            So, you disgracefully bow out of this discussion? Go back to school, this time an accredited one.

          • androgyne anode

            There’s a bar for entering into debate with me, child.

            Sorry, you didn’t make the cut.

          • Jim Deferio

            Haha. I’m almost 65 years old, I have two science degrees plus I have accumulated about 230 semester hours of college course work (undergraduate and graduate) and I am confident that you wouldn’t stand a chance against me in an intellectual debate. Perhaps in quoting Katy Perry songs you may win. LOL

            Btw, my Facebook is open. Take a look.

          • androgyne anode

            It sounds like your degrees were a waste of money. Perhaps you should ask for a refund.

            And as far as me referring to you as a child, it had nothing to do with your age.

            I’m not going to bother visiting your Facebook page, because despite the fact that you clearly think very highly of yourself, you’re not even worth the effort.

            I won’t affirm your belief in fairy tales by deigning to debate your silly belief system. In the end it amounts to parsing your delusions, and that’s a mug’s game.

            Buh bye. *pageant wave*

          • Jim Deferio

            You may want to get your anodes checked out and tweaked a bit. Confusion is not of God…

          • androgyne anode

            So now you’re simply going to babble gibberish at me. I see.

          • Jim Deferio

            Just being Biblical and answering a fool according to their folly! Proverbs 26:5

            I expected an intelligent discussion but all you have done is dish out sarcastic comments.

            There’s hope for you. I personally know numerous EX-homosexuals and I have preached with EX-homosexuals on college campuses and at various events. No one is “born gay” but if in your dark delusional mind even if you may THINK you were “born that way”, Jesus Christ said that “You must be born again” (John 3:3-8).

          • androgyne anode

            So I’m homosexual now? What color is the sky in your world?

            I prefer Matthew 7:6 to Proverbs 26:5, and is perhaps ironically, the reason I won’t deign to “debate” delusional men.

          • Kara Connor

            If you purposely destroyed a bible, it suggests you weren’t actually an atheist but were reacting against religion. That love-hate relationship would also explain your swing back. There is no evidence for religious belief being true. It’s faith-based.

          • Jim Deferio

            What??? And you know me from where? I destroyed the Bible to impress some of my friends and to show that nothing would happen to me. I just didn’t care. I was a real atheist, not one who pretended to have objective morals. I made up my own codes of conduct (and acted on them if I could get away with it and acted on some that I didn’t get away with).

            Biblical faith is not blind. Just the opposite. Have you even read the Bible? If you had then you would know that Biblical faith is based on reason, evidence and revelation, not on emotions and blind belief.

            Atheism is a religion. Evolutionism is a religion. Do subscribe to either of these?

          • Kara Connor

            Atheism is a religion? And not playing baseball is a sport. And not playing piano is music. Your logic is faulty, which backs up what I suspected. Religion suits you better for now.

          • Jim Deferio

            Besides atheisim and evolutionism, there are three well known and established religions that are godless. Do you know what these are? Do you know how the Supreme Court ruled on atheism as a religion?
            What is your education level, if I may ask?

          • Kara Connor

            “Evolutionism”, an attempt by the Institute of Creation Research and similar organizations to make evolutionary theory appear to be a secular religion, fails at that with the most cursory examination. It is a scientific, falsifiable theory based in fact and evidence, which has withstood 150 years of testing. It is no more a religion than is “General Relativityism”.

            That a Federal appeals court classified atheism as a religion in ruling on a case for a prison inmate doesn’t show what you think it shows. What it throws into sharp relief is that religion has special rights that others don’t have, and that particular appellate had to had to use that route to get the same treatment as people claiming belief in mythical beings. More religious special rights, like their tax breaks and ability to pick and choose the laws they obey.

            My education extends to a Ph.D. in High Energy Particle Physics.

          • Jim Deferio

            Here, let me help you (one of the severe problems with those who earn a Ph.D is that they spread their gray & white matter heavily onto a very narrow field of study. a

            Btw, I’m not copying and pasting this so listen up.

            In Torasco v. Watkins (1961) the Supreme Court stated:
            “Among religions in this country which do not teach what would generally be considered a belief in God are Buddhism, Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism and others.”

            In United States v. Seeger (1965), the Supreme Court ruled that a belief is religious if it is “sincere and meaningful…occupies a place in the life of its possessor parallel to that filled by the orthodox belief in God.”

            Atheist humanist philosopher John Dewey wrote about his own humanism as RELIGIOUS! He said “religion” was,
            “Any activity pursued in the belief of an ideal end against obstacles and in spite of threats of personal loss because of convictions of its general and enduring value is religious in quality.” (John Dewey, “A Common Faith”, Yale Univ. Press, 1934, p 27)

            Michael Ruse, who is a philosopher of science at the University of Guelph in Ontario wrote,
            “Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion – a full-fledged alternative to Christianity with meaning and morality. …Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning and it is true of evolution today.” (Michael Ruse, “saving Darwinism from the Darwinians”, National Post, May 200, p. B-3)

            Atheism denies an absolute and universal but in doing so atheists are affirming an absolute and an universal. PROVE your absolute and universal affirmation!

            You also greatly err in what science is and what science is not. Evolutionism is NOT operational science (observation science) and it cannot use the scientific method. Evolutionism is a belief system that relies on even more presuppositions than the scientific method does. These presuppositions are not tested by and proved by the scientific method. Falsifiabilty is one of these and it cannot be tested by the scientific method. Falsifiability is a philosophical concept popularized by philosopher of science Karl Popper.

            Don’t equivocate. Particle physics is NOT evolutionism. Nice try at a logical fallacy.

            This is a list I have been composing from various sources including my own. I will copy and paste these since i am the one who composed the list and I have them saved on my computer:

            Presuppositions by people who do “science”.

            1) the existence of a theory-independent, external world (in other words, the world doesn’t have to conform to our theories but there is a REAL world out there and our theories must conform to this real word)

            2) the orderly nature of the external world

            3) the knowability of the external world (this is person related)

            4) the existence of truth (this is fact related)

            5) the laws of logic

            6) the reliability of our cognitive and sensory faculties to serve as truth gatherers and as a source of justified true beliefs in our intellectual environment

            7) the adequacy of language to describe the world

            8) the existence of values used in science (e.g. scientists should “test theories fairly and report test results honestly”)

            9) the uniformity of nature and induction (the regularity of order – this is different than #2). The spatial uniformity, the temporal uniformity, as well as the continuation of laws of nature into the future.

            10) the existence of numbers

            11) the law of causality (Norman Geisler includes this as one of the laws of logic but others see it as separate)

            12) contingency of the universe

            13) desacralization of the universe (for the Hindu, the universe is part of the divine)

            14) methodological reductionism (Occam’s Razor – though I think this is sometimes taken to far as if it were a law and not merely a presupposition)

            15) value of scientific enterprise

            16) falsifiability

            17) principle of analogy

            Please note that there is some overlap among these 17 presuppositions. Sources for these were: Dr. Neil Shenvi (Duke Univ. – Physics & Chemistry), Dr. Norman Geisler (Christian apologist & philosopher), Dr. William Lane Craig (Biola Univ.- apologist & philosopher), Dr. JP Moreland (Biola Univ. – apologist & philosopher), Dr. Phil Fernandez (apologist), and one from me. I added a bit of explanation on some and my youngest daughter helped.

          • Jim Deferio

            It appears that my reply to you was deleted. I’ll re-post.

            Here, let me help you (one of the severe problems with those who earn a Ph.D is that they spread their gray & white matter heavily onto a very narrow field of study. a

            Btw, I’m not copying and pasting this so listen up.

            In Torasco v. Watkins (1961) the Supreme Court stated:
            “Among religions in this country which do not teach what would generally be considered a belief in God are Buddhism, Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism and others.”

            In United States v. Seeger (1965), the Supreme Court ruled that a belief is religious if it is “sincere and meaningful…occupies a place in the life of its possessor parallel to that filled by the orthodox belief in God.”

            Atheist humanist philosopher John Dewey wrote about his own humanism as RELIGIOUS! He said “religion” was,
            “Any activity pursued in the belief of an ideal end against obstacles and in spite of threats of personal loss because of convictions of its general and enduring value is religious in quality.” (John Dewey, “A Common Faith”, Yale Univ. Press, 1934, p 27)

            Michael Ruse, who is a philosopher of science at the University of Guelph in Ontario wrote,
            “Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion – a full-fledged alternative to Christianity with meaning and morality. …Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning and it is true of evolution today.” (Michael Ruse, “saving Darwinism from the Darwinians”, National Post, May 200, p. B-3)

            Atheism denies an absolute and universal but in doing so atheists are affirming an absolute and an universal. PROVE your absolute and universal affirmation!

            You also greatly err in what science is and what science is not. Evolutionism is NOT operational science (observation science) and it cannot use the scientific method. Evolutionism is a belief system that relies on even more presuppositions than the scientific method does. These presuppositions are not tested by and proved by the scientific method. Falsifiabilty is one of these and it cannot be tested by the scientific method. Falsifiability is a philosophical concept popularized by philosopher of science Karl Popper.

            Don’t equivocate. Particle physics is NOT evolutionism. Nice try at a logical fallacy.

            This is a list I have been composing from various sources including my own. I will copy and paste these since i am the one who composed the list and I have them saved on my computer:

            Presuppositions by people who do “science”.

            1) the existence of a theory-independent, external world (in other words, the world doesn’t have to conform to our theories but there is a REAL world out there and our theories must conform to this real word)

            2) the orderly nature of the external world

            3) the knowability of the external world (this is person related)

            4) the existence of truth (this is fact related)

            5) the laws of logic

            6) the reliability of our cognitive and sensory faculties to serve as truth gatherers and as a source of justified true beliefs in our intellectual environment

            7) the adequacy of language to describe the world

            8) the existence of values used in science (e.g. scientists should “test theories fairly and report test results honestly”)

            9) the uniformity of nature and induction (the regularity of order – this is different than #2). The spatial uniformity, the temporal uniformity, as well as the continuation of laws of nature into the future.

            10) the existence of numbers

            11) the law of causality (Norman Geisler includes this as one of the laws of logic but others see it as separate)

            12) contingency of the universe

            13) desacralization of the universe (for the Hindu, the universe is part of the divine)

            14) methodological reductionism (Occam’s Razor – though I think this is sometimes taken to far as if it were a law and not merely a presupposition)

            15) value of scientific enterprise

            16) falsifiability

            17) principle of analogy

            Please note that there is some overlap among these 17 presuppositions. Sources for these were: Dr. Neil Shenvi (Duke Univ. – Physics & Chemistry), Dr. Norman Geisler (Christian apologist & philosopher), Dr. William Lane Craig (Biola Univ.- apologist & philosopher), Dr. JP Moreland (Biola Univ. – apologist & philosopher), Dr. Phil Fernandez (apologist), and one from me. I added a bit of explanation on some and my youngest daughter helped.

          • Kara Connor

            You claim: “Atheism denies an absolute and universal but in doing so atheists are affirming an absolute and an universal. PROVE your absolute and universal affirmation!”

            No. Atheism is simply not finding any evidence for the existence of a god. You find no evidence for Thor or Zeus. I find no evidence for your biblical, Christian god. The burden of proof is on the person claiming that something exists. That would be you.

            Despite your quoting various philosphers, it would seem that for something to be a religion in any meaningful sense, it would have elements of the following, e.g.

            Meriam-Webster:
            : the belief in a god or in a group of gods
            : an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods

            The OED:
            Action or conduct indicating belief in, obedience to, and reverence for a god, gods, or similar superhuman power; the performance of religious rites or observances

            Typically adherents believe that humans have some special status as a results of some sort of immortal soul.

            Evolutionary theory has none of these elements. Evolution says nothing whatsoever about the existence or none-existence of a deity. It is falsifiable. It has been challenged repeatedly over the last 150 years, and was not magically welcomed by everyone, but was received very badly by many influential figures. It has not been supplanted or shown to be false in all that time. It is supported by a huge body of evidence. For just a few examples see

            http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/search/topicbrowse2.php?topic_id=46
            http://transitionalfossils.com/
            http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/07/3/l_073_47.html

            Nor did I ever claim that Particle Physics was evolution. Please don’t lie about what I said.

          • Jim Deferio

            Kara, Kara, Kara…Evolution theory is “falsifiable”? Look, I already stated that falsifiability is a philosophical concept popularized by philosopher of science Karl Popper. If you don’t want me quoting philosophers then why do you insist on having this affair with Karl? I thought you were a lesbian…

            Here is a very eye-opening quote from world renown evolutionist Ernst Mayr:
            “Evolutionary biology, in contrast with physics and chemistry, is an historical science – the evolutionist attempts to explain events and processes that have already taken place. Laws and experiments are inappropriate techniques for the explication of such events and processes. Instead one constructs a historical narrative, consisting of a tentative reconstruction of the particular scenario that led to the events one is trying to explain.”
            (Ernst Matr, “Darwin’s Influence on Modern Thought”, Scientific American, July 2000, p.80)

            Now, Mayr contrasts evolutionary biology with physics and chemistry. However, theoretical physics in regards to the origin of the universe is not observational science. It is also driven by presuppositions (usually blatant biases) and mathematics that break down. Have you ever looked at the models for the universe that theoretical physicists have put forth? They contradict each other and some are not even full-fledged theories (such as “M-Theory, which is nothing more than ideas four theoretical physicists came up with on a train, lol).

            All worldviews concerning existence can be reduced to these three:
            1) Brute Fact Universe
            2) Necessary Universe (and this comes in two forms)
            3) Necessary Deity

            Which do you subscribe to. let me critique your choice.

            As for affirming a universal-absolute, you can’t, that’s for sure and because you can’t and because you have no objective, universal, invariant, absolute, ultimate, transcendent, and personal standard for truth, moral values, ethics, logic, and rationality I say that you are borrowing from my Christian worldview in your attempt to seem rational, moral, and honest.

            For me to go through the twenty or more arguments for the existence of God would require me to basically write a book. For me to go into detail for the historicity and credibility of the historical Biblical narratives concerning Jesus Christ and the geological evidence for Noah’s flood and other aspects of the Old Testament of the Bible would also require a book (several books). These books have already been written by people earned Ph.d’s in geology, astrophysics, and in history, philosophy, etc.

            I can recommend many books but I’m still not sure of your education level. These three were written at the graduate level (except the first two chapters of Reasonable Faith).

            “Reasonable Faith” by William Lane Craig

            “Philosophical Foundations For A Christian Worldview” by JP Moreland & William Lane Craig

            On Physics and Philosophy by Bernard d’Espagnant (a bear of a book because of the translation from French into English – I was thinking of buying the French version and have my wife translate, lol).

            This one is readily accessible by those with normal IQ’s and it is by bad Bart Ehrman (yes, I’m actually recommending a book by a non-Christian).
            “Did Jesus Exist?” by Bart Ehrman
            Btw, I had a front role seat at the debate between bad Bart Ehrman and Dan Wallace in Chapel Hill at North Carolina Univ. It was about the textual evidence for the Bible. Wallace clearly won. I wondered about Bart and I found out that adultery was probably fueling his exit from Christianity. In any case you should also read Bart’s blog where he takes Richard Carrier to school about the evidence for Christ.

            “Scaling the Secular City” by JP Moreland

            “The Historical Jesus, Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ” by Gary Habermas. (Gary is an historian and a philosopher).

            There are many more. However, this is what I think, I think you are guilty of confirmation bias. I used to be an atheist and I know how painful it can be to read things that conflict with your worldview. However, I really wanted to know what was “truth” – if that were indeed possible. I think you just want an excuse to continue to do things that are unnatural, irrational, and perverse.

            However, if you are sick of your sickness there is help.

            Religion is “a cause, a principle, or an activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion” (The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language).

          • Kara Connor

            Word salad. If you believe you can show evolutionary theory is wrong, have at it. A lot of people have tried over the last 150 years. I’ll fly to Stockholm and congratulate you on your Nobel Prize if that happens. The evidence suggests it won’t.

          • Jim Deferio

            IF you are right and evolution is indeed true then you indeed have no objective morality and no basis for “equality”. Like William Provine of Cornell Univ. said, “There is no foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning to life, and no free will for humans either.”

            It’s determinism and any suggestion of morality is an illusion produced by the mechanical ape brain. Naturalism cannot explain rationality. In fact, IF naturalism were true we would have no rational basis for believing it to be true.

            You fail, Kara. Any way you look at it you are in desperate straights.

            Evolutionism and atheism has absolutely no rational explanatory power. It cannot rational nor scientifically explain the origin of life, the complexity of life, the diversity of life, the rise of consciousness, moral & ethical values, laws of logic, and the ability to relate particulars with universals.

            I hope to be making a trip to Seattle to preach sometime in the future, Lord willing. I have never been there though my wife and I used to live in Corvallis, OR when I was at OSU. Would you like to have a face to face debate with me in front of your cult?

          • Kara Connor

            Nonsense. Many great apes demonstrate “morality”. Morality derives from the evolutionary advantage of developing empathy. You just like the idea that humans are somehow special. Do show, by the way, that we have immortal souls.

          • Jim Deferio

            You said, “Many great apes demonstrate ‘morality”. Morality derives from the evolutionary advantage of developing empathy.”

            That’s utter nonsense. Morality is a prescription of how one OUGHT to act, not a description of what is. What are the penalties for for an animal who doesn’t demonstrate “herd morality”? Does their “conscience” bother them?

            Btw, the concept of evolution is not directed toward any means or goals because it is blind random chance. There is no goal, no destiny, no morals, just what is.

            So, again, which of these do you subscribe to (there are only three)?
            1) Brute Fact Universe
            2) Necessary Universe
            3) Necessary Deity

          • Kara Connor

            Evolution by natural selection is not simply blind, random chance. That you say that shows a lack of understanding.

          • Jim Deferio

            It is impossible to have macro-evolution by so-called natural selection. No new information can be created by such blind naturalistic processes (blind according the the evolutionism). I already gave you a quote by William Provine of Cornell Univ.

            I’m the one who actually has one of my degrees in biology.

          • Kara Connor

            Again, your “know new information” comment shows a complete lack of comprehension about the mechanism you attempt to refute. You don’t even understand what you are arguing against. You should ask for your tuition money back.

          • Jim Deferio

            Another ad hominem from you. I am the one who has been posting intelligent and informative comments.
            Name me ONE instance where “natural selection” added new information to the genome. You can’t and neither can anyone else.
            I have had numerous comments deleted. I personally know the owner of this website and I have preached with him at least one hundred times. However, I fear he has someone editing the comment section who isn’t completely dedicated to Christ. I sent them a message last night so we’ll see if my comments are restored.

            I used to live in Corvallis, OR when I was at OSU. I have never been to Seattle but I hope to sometime in the future, Lord willing. Perhaps you would like to debate me face to face in front of your cult. Let me know.

            I’m just about through with this thread as it is difficult to communicate when comments are being deleted, especially comments that cite scientific research articles.

          • Kara Connor

            You claim to have a biology degree? Natural selection does not ADD information. It is the mechanism which selects mutations that are beneficial and weeds out those which are not.

            Nor are gene mutations totally random. There are physical laws governing what base pairs are permissible, ignoring UBPs, and constraints from protein tertiary and quaternary structures. There are only 64 codons with some duplication of the amino acid they represent. Rather than imagining it as new information, it is more informative to think of it encoding a new protein, which may or may not have a beneficial effect on the organism. That is where natural selection takes over.

          • Jim Deferio

            I’m puzzled over what exactly you are trying to prove. It seems to me that you are digging a pit for yourself. I will say this, you have been civil (unless comments where you weren’t civil were deleted). Many atheists are not civil. Just today I had a can thrown at me and numerous people were calling me all kinds of obscene names (I was at a college campus with a rather un-offensive banner, lol, that had Acts 4:12 on one side and John 14:6 on the other).

            I used an argument with you in a number of my comments that I didn’t identify and it seems you didn’t catch. It was a presuppositional argument that shows the impossibility of the contrary. If there is no God who is transcendent, ultimate, infinite, personal,and Necessary, then you can’t prove anything, including your misinformed arguments about evolution. There would be no reason for reason.

            Even staunch atheist J.B.S. Haldane wrote:
            “If my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain, I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true…and hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms.”
            (“Possible Worlds” p. 209)

            Former atheist C.S. Lewis wrote something similar:
            “If minds are wholly dependent on brains, and brains on biochemisty, and biochemistry (in the long run) on the meaningless flux of the atoms, I cannot understand how the thought of those minds should have any more significance than the sound of the wind in the trees.”
            “Is Theology Poetry”, an essay)

            C.S.Lewis also wrote:
            “Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind. In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons, to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me, as a by-product, the sensation I call thought.
            But, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? It’s like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give you a map of London.
            But, if I can’t trust my own thinking, of course I can’t trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an Atheist or anything else.
            Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought: so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God.”
            (The Case for Christianity, p.32)

            C.S. Lewis was an atheist who gradually came to rational belief in God. He said that his problem was not intellectual but emotional. I have often found that is the case with many atheists. They have emotional problems. Famous long time atheist Antony Flew (who is now deceased) had an emotional link to his atheism – his father. He also had an intellectual link and Antony went from atheism to deism to theism and in his book, “There Is a God, How the World’s Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind” he had British theologian N.T. Wright author an essay about the uniqueness of Jesus Christ.

            Your arguments are desperate and are similar to the evolutionist argument that endosymbiosis (a totally fabricated story of origins) explains how mitochondria became part of a cell. LOL. First of all the cell needs at least FIVE protein pathways between the nucleus and the supposed simple cell it engulfed (that became the mitochondria) to even be able to function and NOT be dissolved. I have to laugh because this phony baloney story is still being taught in college biology texts and it is absolutely laughable.

            One of your fellow Britishers, Edgar H. Andrews, wrote a simple but rather profound book called, “Who Made God, Searching For a Theory of Everything”. He’s an expert on the science of large molecules and though he doesn’t cover endosymbiosis (and some other topics) he provides a unique perspective in the area of apologetics.

            Enough of the irrationality.

          • Kara Connor

            I attempt to remain civil (with the occasional shark thrown in :-) ) if people are having a civil discussion. It is simultaneously insulting and amusing when some people refer to me (I don’t put you in this category) as an abomination, perverted sub-human, go on to insult or deny my family, accuse me of harming my children, then complain if I fire a shot back across their bows :-)

            The problem with your citing philosophy is that you aren’t producing any evidence. You can’t produce any evidence for your god (or any other) without ultimately resorting to faith, and of course, encountering the infinite regression problem or special pleading. I can produce evidence gathered over 150 years, with an immense fossil record, and even without using a single fossil, molecular biology shows exactly the evidence predicted by evolutionary theory, be it the fusion if two chromosome in human chromosome 2, or in the DNA divergence/similarity between species.

          • Jim Deferio

            Seriously, We have to stop meeting like this. 😉

            There is no fossil evidence for transitional species and everything that evolutionists have proposed as a transitional species has been debunked.

            I actually have a great deal of info about the supposed fused genes (not just one) that desperate evolutionists are claiming represents evolution from chimp to human.

            The problem with evidence as it relates to you (and actually everyone) is that everything is interpreted through a worldview. There is no neutrality. Also, you (not me) are involved in confirmation bias as I stated way above. If you look at the research that debunks the claims of chimp to human evolution, protein synthesis, transitional fossils, plate tectonics, distant starlight, etc. etc. you would see that there was no “evolution” of the kind that produces life from non-life, complexity from simplicity, consciousness from non-conscious matter, etc. etc. You are a materialist but your worldview is immaterial and it is a philosophy. You are blind to your own contradictions.

            The discussion about proteins is futile. I’m a “roots” sort of guy even though I know much about branches and twigs also. The problem with proteins is that even with intelligent manipulation you can’t even attain the 20 amino acids necessary for a human protein let alone getting the chirality in sync for protein synthesis. The Urey-Miller experiments have been tweaked and run hundreds of times with INTELLIGENT manipulation.

            Another problem. The average human protein consists of 375 amino acids and even the common fruit fly (Drosophila melanogaster) has an average protein length of 373 amino acids and of 67 species of bacteria tested the average protein length was 267 amino acids (research by Brocchieri and Karlin 2005 ).

            Here’s the problem. There are 10 to the 80th power of baryons in the observable universe. There are 10 to the 45th power of possible divisions in a second of time (using Planck’s constant and working from there), and there are 10 to the 25th power of seconds since the “Big Bang” (if you believe that scenario). Multiplying all of this gives one 10 to the 150th power.

            HOWEVER, there are at least 10 to the 325th ways to assemble an average-sized protein from 20 different amino acids, only ONE of which the human body will recognize for its purpose. Can you agree that evolution is IMPOSSIBLE.

            As a materialist who holds to a particular philosophy in contradiction to your materialistic basis you are a walking contradiction (and I mean that in a nice way, lol).

            I spent up to four years debating an atheist from Syracuse and finally I told him that I was through, he was nothing more than a sophist. I have met and persoanlly known many brilliant people but this guy had the sharpest intellect I have ever encountered. As intelligent as my youngest daughter is (she’s 32 years old now) she told me one day, “Dad, he’s three levels above me.”

            Here’s the kicker. My daughter was born with a gift for logic and she beat him in every debate they had. I only lost one debate out of the dozens we had. His problem was that he went from atheism, which itself is untenable, to being an “anti-theist” and his extreme biases capsized his sharp intellect.

            Today he hates me. He said he lost a friend and someone he could debate with. The last time I saw him (last summer) he walked by me and called me a few choice names.

            I don’t have the liberty to be involved in endless debates with people who take this as sport. I’m called to be a good steward and as a good steward I have to manage my limited time on this earth in a wise way. So, this will be my last comment.

          • Kara Connor

            Please provide citations of peer reviewed published papers debunking the fossil record (and links to their Nobel Prizes for disproving evolution), and an explanation of chromosome 2.

          • Jim Deferio

            I said my other comment would be my last but I just heard back from the administrator of ChristianNews.net (the owner is overseas on a missionary trip) and she said many have been complaining about their comments being deleted. She said that the problem is the Disqus program and they will be looking into it when they have time.

            So if you go to my Facebook and scroll a bit down you will see some of the scientific research that shows people are not “born that way” and that homosexuality is not an immutable character trait.

          • Kara Connor

            I can list far more papers to the contrary. Twin studies show a far higher correlation than chance, suggest epigenetics are involved.

          • Meepestos

            Is there a link/site you can suggest where I can learn more about UBPs?

            When doing a search on the web all I can find is a book.

            I’m over here now

            http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/b-c-mp-lunney-quits-tory-caucus-to-defend-his-views-on-evolution

            will be back later to check.

          • Kara Connor
          • Meepestos

            Thank you!

          • jnail7

            The domestication of canines and the resultant plethora of multiple “breeds” demonstrates Macro-evolution quite nicely. Basically the current list of “pure breeds” is the long term result of small variations giving a selective procreational advantage within the environment of human cohabitation. Those with desired traits were favored gaining more breeding opportunities to pass along their particular variation. Over time little changes add up. Other examples in “recent” history would include the development of modern corn and the existence and potential extinction of the modern banana. The only real “unnatural” selection would be direct gene manipulation to produce specific outcomes. Outside of that human involvement is as valid an environment as any other on implementing selection bias that can favor some seemingly arbitrary traits over others.

            Your argument is like saying that there is no way the Grand Canyon could have been created by simple erosion as erosion only moves tiny amounts of material and the Grand Canyon is huge.

          • Jim Deferio

            What you are describing is MICRO-evolution, not MACRO-evolution. Macro would be the changing of one kind into another kind. Dogs always remain dogs, they do not change into another kind.

            Scientists have done much study on this and they demonstrated micro-evolution is their breeding program with foxes. Micro-evolution, whether by intelligent manipulation or by unintelligent chance environmental factors, can only work on what is already present, it cannot result in new information that leads to one kind changing into another kind.

            The ancestral wolves that gave rise to our present day dogs had a rich genome. To the present day dogs can interbreed with coyotes and wolves. Llamas can interbreed with camels, tigers with lions, etc. etc. Sometimes, though, so much information is lost that there cannot be anymore interbreeding that produces viable offspring.

            Fruit flies are prime examples of micro-evolution. Even with intelligent input by man, after THOUSANDS of generations fruit flies remain FRUIT FLIES! There may be all kinds of mutations but they are still fruit flies. I can confirm that through my own genetic experiments in college with fruit flies. I didn’t have them go through thousands of generations but it was still enough to demonstrate that no macro-evolution results.

          • jnail7

            Your response is like saying the Mississippi River causes erosion just like the Colorado River does, but there is no Grand Mississippi Canyon, so the theory that the Grand Canyon is the result of extreme long-term erosion must be wrong.

            Equating your “thousands” of generations of fruit flies as proof to humans, even using an extreme 40 year per generation time frame equivalent would still result in a time span associated with the existence of homo sapiens in the fossil record. A better experiment would to house multiple separate populations of fruit flies, each with distinct environmental conditions that are controlled throughout the experiment. Keep them in isolation for decades in their particular environment and log the changes in dominant traits. Also, take a few from each generation to test for cross-breeding viability and note when such cross-breeding becomes non-viable.

          • Jim Deferio

            I don’t know if it’s me or that you just don’t know how to be clear.

            Anyway, give me the mechanisms that would result in an increase in information in the genome. Better yet, give me the mechanism that would result in a genome (information) to begin with!

            Do you know anything about information science? Anything at all.

          • jnail7

            What is your operational definition of “information” as applied in your query? Without that context it seems you may be operating like a puddle believing that the pothole that it resides in was intelligently designed because it fits so perfectly.

          • Meepestos

            Perhaps you mean by what is in the first link and Kara’s in the second link.

            http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIIC1aRandom.shtml

            http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_32

          • Meepestos
          • OR2OR3OR4

            Jim, you are getting absolutely crushed here and I’m baffled that you think you’re getting the better of this exchange. Your intellectual posturing and perpetually condescending deflections of Kara’s patient, well-reasoned, and evidence-supported rebuttals are embarrassing to behold. Learn some humility.

          • Jim Deferio

            You don’t know what you are talking about.
            I challenged the person who goes by the name of “Kara Connor” to a face-to-face debate in Seattle this summer and so far ZILCH from this person.

            The other thing is that I have had numerous comments deleted because I posted some links or used some words that the previous filter settings for this website caught and which prevented my comments from being published.

            If this person has a “Ph.D” then what are they afraid of? We can debate in front of this person’s tranny club.

          • Jim Deferio

            Some questions for you:
            What is the basis for you believing that there should be “equality”?
            Are “human rights” part of your argument for equality?
            Is it “immoral” to deny equality?
            What is the basis for morality?
            If abortion is OK why not putting to death those who claim to be homosexual?
            What value is homosexuality in the evolutionary scheme of things.
            What is the basis of ascribing value?
            Have you ever heard of “degreed properties”?
            If “homosexuals” are found to have a degraded genome (due to entropy) would it be OK to eliminate them from the population? If it becomes possible one day to conduct prenatal testing for homosexuality would you object to the mother choosing to destroy the fetus testing positive for homosexuality?

          • Kara Connor

            My basis for believing that we should have equality under the law is “the Golden Rule” (which predates Christianity by millennia), and the US Constitution.
            The Golden Rule and empathy are the basis of morality.

            Trying to equate aborting a fetus with killing an adult person is a very odd position for you to hold. The latter has a fully formed brain and nervous system, and is capable of independent life, experiencing pain, and cognitive reasoning.

            Homosexuality exists in a wide variety of species. Science is attempting to find out why. Current research suggests that it may be because of some or all of the following

            Evidence for maternally inherited factors
            favouring male homosexuality and promoting female fecundity.
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691850/

            Could homosexual genes be naturally selected Psychology Today
            http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/200906/could-homosexual-genes-be-naturally-selected

            Camperio-Ciani, A., et al. (2004). Evidence for
            maternally-inherited factors favouring male homosexuality and promoting female
            fecundity. Proceedings of the Royal Society of London, B 271, 2217-2224.

            Camperio Ciani, A. (2009). Genetic factors increase fecundity
            in female maternal relatives of Bisexual men as in homosexuals. Sexual
            Medicine, 6, 449-455.

            LeVay, S. & Hamer, D. (1991). A difference in
            hypothalamic structure between heterosexual and homosexual men. Science, 253,
            1034-1037.

            Factors Associated with Higher Fecundity in Female Maternal
            Relatives of Homosexual Men. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2012.02785.x/abstract

            Friberg, Urban, Sergey Gavrilets, and
            William R. Rice. “Homosexuality as a Consequence of Epigenetically
            Canalized Sexual Development.” The Quarterly Review of Biology 87.4
            (2012): n. pag. Print. PubMed doi:10.1086/668167

            That is one “value” – increasing female fecundity. However, LGBT people have intrinsic value as do other human beings.

            Your “degraded genome” question is essentially meaningless. Define “degraded”.

            I would personally object to aborting a fetus other than for severe mutations which significantly degraded quality of life. Homosexuality does not fall into that category, since it is quite possible, and indeed not at all uncommon for LGBT people to lead productive and enjoyable lives. However, I do not consider fetal personhood to make sense, and within the limits determined by the best science, I think that a woman has agency over her own body, and should be able to make her own informed decision.

            I further note that you have now derailed onto abortion rights because you have no valid arguments against marriage equality.

          • Jim Deferio

            Citing the Golden Rule which was stated in negative terms in the Book of The Dead and not in positive terms as Jesus stated it does NOT establich a basis for moral values, it was just something an individual or a group stated and thought it good to hold to it. WHAT exactly is the basis of morality, answer the question and stop dancing around it.

            WHY should anyone treating others the way they would want to be treated? Who says that I or anyone else SHOULD do this. Are you trying to say that there is an objective moral code that people OUGHT to live by. If so, WHO or WHAT authored this code, enforces this code, and makes it obligatory. Answer the questions!

            I asked if you knew what “degreed properties” were. You obviously don’t because in drawing a comparison between a “fetus” (Latin for “baby”) and an adult you mentioned properties that are “degreed”. Do you understand the stupidity in that? Do you understand how arbitrary that is? Obviously not. I’ll let you try to figure that out.

            If you believe in evolutionism then please provide some evidence for it.

            No one can do science without philosophy. I proved that by stating 17 presuppositions of observational science.

            Why should there be “equality” if evolutionism is true. What would be the basis for this equality? Are you being guilty of speciesism? If evolution is true, on what basis then should a distinction be made between Homo sapiens and any other species? If everything is reducible to chemistry and survival of the fittest then who are YOU to discriminate against a mosquito, e coli (Escherichia coli), or slime molds (a subgroup of amoebozoa)? Btw, slime molds exhibit “swarm intelligence”, do you, lol.

            William Provine, the Charles A. Alexander Professor of Biological Sciences at the Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at Cornell University, said this in Originis Research:
            “Let me summarize my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear. There are no gods, no purposes, no goal-directed forces of any kind. There is no life after death. When I die, I am absolutely certain that I am going to be dead. That’s the end for me. There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning to life, and no free will for humans either.”
            (Origins Research 16, no. 1, 1994, p 9)

          • Jim Deferio

            CANNIBALISM AND HOMOSEXUALITY
            There are over 1,500 species of animals that have been observed to display cannibalistic activity. By the logic of the homosexualist who try to argue for homosexuality based on its observance in the animal kingdom, homosexualists should also be advocates of cannibalism. Here is the citation for the “over 1,500 species of animals” claim:
            G. A. Polis, The evolution and dynamics of intraspecific predation. Annual Review of Ecology and Systematics 12, 225-251 (1981).

            In the 34 years since this was published no doubt MANY more species of animals have been identified as cannibalistic.

            LET THE FEAST BEGIN!

          • Kara Connor

            You claimed homosexuality was unnatural, I showed you were wrong.

          • Jim Deferio

            By your warped standard everything is “natural” if it occurs in “nature”. So, lets see, what else is “natural”?
            parasitism
            rape (many animals rape)
            female harems
            cannibalism
            abandonment of young offspring
            the theft of burrows, nests & shelter
            workers and queens
            incest
            “red in tooth and claw” (as William Paley put it in 1802)
            fights to the death
            sexual promiscuity

            The best you can do is come up with something called “herd morality” and it would only be a descriptive story, not a prescription for what one ought to do. You have NO foundation for your objections in these comments. You don’t even know what “truth” is for that is also a philosophical term and of course you want to distance yourself from the “truth of philosophy”.

            I don’t hate you. I do hate your wicked lifestyle 9actually you have a deathstyle). I always tell people that if God can save me, a former wicked atheist – and I didn’t pretend like you do to have morals) then He can save anyone if they are humble and seek Him.

            1 Timothy 1:15-16
            “This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
            However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.”
            (NewKJV)

          • Kara Connor

            I’m not the one using the “appeal to nature” fallacy. You are. You want to claim that “natural=good” when it suits you, then rail against it in the next breath.

          • Jim Deferio

            Seriously, are you OK? YOU are the one who appealed to “homosexuality” in the animal kingdom. YOU are the one appealing to nature, not me. A natural law argument against homosexuality doesn’t even come close to doing what you were trying to do with your argument about “homosexual” animals in nature. I doubt you have a college education.

            Btw, numerous comments of mine are not showing up.

          • Kara Connor

            Try to keep up. You claimed it wasn’t natural. You were wrong. I wasn’t using that as a moral argument for or against, merely pointing out that you were wrong.

          • Jim Deferio

            Some same-sex activity has been observed in approximately 1,500 species of animals, of which between 450 and 500 are vertebrates. There are at least 16 MILLION species of animals in the world (no doubt more waiting to be discovered, studied and classified).
            Can you honestly say that this is natural and normal (in the distributive sense of the word) when it occurs in less than 0.01% of species? Also, what is observed is “situational homosexuality” in which the animal relieves a sexual impulse in what ever way in can. We see this all the time with bull elk (which is an abundant species in the state of Washington). Only one bull earns the right to the harem of females and the others relieve their pent up sexual urges any way that’s available.

            Let me ask you Kara, do you consult you pets for advice regarding other permissible conduct?

  • jolene

    I for one would not buy a cup of your overpriced bad coffee and certainly if I had money to buy any shares in any com. it wouldn’t be Starbucks….You are not as special as you seem to think you are Mr. Howard Shultz…I support marriage between a man and woman just like God stated in the Bible……

  • Dallas

    All you people out there saying the Bible condemns homosexuality as a sin are taking ONE line from a book filled with thousands of pages that also condemn eating shellfish and wearing clothes cut from a different cloth. Why are you not preaching these as sins?? I’ll tell you why. It’s because you as individuals are personally uncomfortable with gays and use the Bible to justify your own ignorant beliefs. It’s so transparent it’s sad.

  • nycmcmike

    The original text of the Bible doesn’t condemn homosexuality.

    Come on people. We live in the Information Age. Figure out what a verifiable fact is and take the 10 minutes to research it.

  • Robert Ayling

    Drawing the distinction between old testament and new testament to strengthen the argument that christians no longer believe in slavery, eating shellfish, morality killings sounds like organized religion took out the icky parts to make the product more commercially viable. Sounds as though it worked.

  • George W Wiswell

    I dont approve of same marriage, but it looks like the courts are overturning many state laws banning it. If they must have it, then it may be called a legal marriage only. Its not a HOLY marriage, because it will not be in the eyes of almighty God.

    • Rus Shore

      Interesting. I don’t remember the word holy appearing in any state or federal laws regarding marriage. It’s not as if the churches are being asked to marry gay people, so what do you care?

  • Robert Dogan

    Deuteronomy, Chapter 22.
    If a man is discovered lying with a woman who is married to another, they both shall die, the man who was lying with the woman as well as the woman.i Thus shall you purge the evil from Israel.

    What say ye hypocrites?

  • JohnK206

    Way to totally misquote Schultz and the company’s stance on marriage equality! I was at that shareholder’s meeting, and he NEVER said anything even close to the garbage you’re reporting. He simply told the reporter to sell his shares if he felt he could improve on the 38% return on investment that Starbucks provided to shareholders last year. And he’s NOT AGAINST “traditional,” heterosexual marriage…he very clearly explained Starbuck’s support for Washington State’s (where its headquarters are located) recently passed law allowing same-sex marriages.

    Your reporting is totally inaccurate. No, it’s A LIE! You’re no better than the slanderous and highly disreputable British “tabloid” press who care nothing about accuracy, facts or fairness! Shame on you!

  • Giggle Snork

    The author doesnt understand the basic concept of all diversity….which included traditional marriage or biblical marriage…..i just call it marriaige.

  • rob2uk

    Have any of you muppets ever read the bible? I don’t believe that you have, else you wouldn’t be saying that ‘one man, one woman’ was biblical marriage.

  • Michel DeLisle

    Absolutely ridiculous how this story has been twisted to meet the agenda of fundamentalists.

  • k9gardner

    From a NY Times study conducted last year and published in December, the divorce rate, while still considerable at roughly 35%, has been decreasing since its high in the late 70’s and early 80’s. One of the reasons cited for the drop:

    “The feminist movement of the 1970s played a considerable role in where the divorce rate is now, according to economists Betsey Stevenson and Justin Wolfer. As women entered the work force and gained reproductive rights, marriage began to evolve into its ‘modern-day form, based on love and shared passions, and often two incomes and shared housekeeping duties.’ ”

    Get that: “based on love and shared passions, and often two incomes and shared housekeeping duties.” That’s the modern marriage!

    Folks who feel that “gay marriage” is a threat to “traditional marriage,” you have to embrace the fact, or at least accept it, that your “traditional marriage” is no longer carrying the day. If you have a marriage in which the man goes off to work, and the woman stays home and cooks and cleans and raises the children; in which the family sits down to dinner together at 6:00, says grace, eats a meal; in which once a year the kids and the dog are gathered up into the station wagon for the annual vacation to the Great Sand Dunes National Park or some such place, dad driving, family singing along with a popular song on the radio… then God bless you. Enjoy that.

    But understand that that is not the “traditional family,” and has not been for at least a generation, if not longer. There is nothing in the above description of the modern marriage that requires or defines gender roles or a gender basis. If you have been able to live side by side with straight couples and their families, who have come together based on love and shared passions, and a willingness to share in the family duties, whatever they may be, then it’s not a big leap to be able to live side by side with gay couples doing exactly the same thing.

    And that, in the end, is what the point to gay marriage is all about. It’s about letting love be the guide, not rules. What could be more Christian than that?

  • Josh

    The header of this article is a bloody lie. That is not even remotely what the guy said. Why write such an unbiased, level-headed article and give it a header that is pure spin and deceit? Why do you feel that kind of unprofessional behavior is necessary?

    Anyway, I’ll be buying some Starbucks stock on Monday.

  • Earthbound1975

    Going down to Starbucks right now for my Devotional. : )

  • Evan

    It is most unfortunate that some people professing Christianity do not demonstrate Christian values. To be Christian literally means to be “Christ-like”.
    Christ spent 33 years here on earth giving us an example of how to live. He taught people what was right and what was wrong. However, in all circumstances whether someone followed his teachings or not he showed everyone respect, and treated them the SAME. Jesus was about loving people for who they are. And the way to lead people to Jesus is to be such a loving, kind, caring person that people want to know what makes you like that.
    Jesus undoubtedly cannot bless those who judge others, discriminate against others, and try and force others to obey. None of that is His way.
    Real Christians love, respect, and allow free will of choice–right or wrong. It is the example Jesus gave us. And THAT is shining ones light for Him.

  • http://www.tjfogarty.com T.J.

    He’s exhibiting basic human understanding and respect. If that offends you, then you need to look inwards.

  • John Schwarz

    So…. People do understand that there actually is no such thing as “Biblical marriage”, right? Marriage has dramatically changed and evolved over the centuries, through many cultural contexts, and is referred to in the Bible in several contexts in different ways – never providing a definitive “definition”. Marriage, through most of the Biblical period involved a man buying a wife for a few goats and sheep and her being his “property”. (The injunction in the Ten Commandments against “adultery” and “coveting your neighbor’s wife”, in their original context, had to do with respecting another man’s property.) Marriage itself, over the centuries, has evolved a lot. There is no rational basis for inferring that this latest evolution (to extend marriage to same-gender couples) is somehow suddenly incompatible with the various Biblical references to marriage or to the Biblical “vision” of what is fundamentally necessary to a good marriage beloved by God. (“One man, one woman” is NOT in fact a quote from the Bible – much as many people act as if it were!)

  • Mr. Sunshine

    Bravo, Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz. If you own a business and do not want to serve every customer…then close your doors and get out of business. I’ll be purchasing Starbuck stock!

  • guest

    I’m a Christian! I know and understand what the Bible says. I also know it’s says God loves all his children and just because you commit a sin doesn’t mean he doesn’t love you. If this was true every single person on this thread would not be loved. I also know it’s not our jobs to do the judging of people that’s a sin. I thought Jesus came to save the sinners in fact that’s who he surrounded himself by. Being a hypocrite is a sin. I thought that Christians are not supposed to judge people and that they were supposed to love everyone, because in reality every single sin is the same. It says that in the Bible it doesn’t say that one sin is greater than the other it says a sin is a sin. So just because you are sin is not homosexuality doesn’t mean that you’re a better person than them you are still a sinner and in fact you’re worse because you’re judging them when that’s not your job. That’s the problem with everybody today is everybody is so worried about everybody else what all you need to focus on is yourself your sins and how you deal with God.

  • Porst

    I wonder how many Christians who can’t stand the idea of two people falling in love and getting married regardless of gender sit at home riveted by reality shows, where people get married by call-in votes and shows where people get married at first sight, or celebrity wedding gossip shows where marriage is turned into a circus. If you’re going to complain about the sanctity of marriage being violated, you better go all-in on that and boycott *everything* that challenges your traditional values, not just homosexuals. Otherwise you’re the definition of a hypocrite.

  • Old Fogey

    The CEO is placing Money over Morality, which is not a good thing to do.

    • Rus Shore

      If your morality would deny someone the right to do something you’re able to do, you’re morality sucks.

  • RyanC

    Way to misquote the the guy right in the headline. Please stop. Your lack of journalistic integrity is embarrassing. At least take the word “Christian” out of your title if you are going to continue to publish this crap.

  • Louise A. C

    Buy more Starbucks. They support my freedom of choice.

  • Louise A. C

    What exactly is Biblical Marriage? There were many major biblical characters with multiple wives, who married their brother’s widow, who married teens. Hmmm?

  • DXW

    Good for Starbucks. I’ve never been a regular Starbucks customer, but I think I’m going to change that now.

  • Jed Wheeler

    Not a fan of Starbucks for other reasons, but good for them on this issue at least. The bigotry and stupidity of religious fundamentalists who are dead set on undermining our secular constitution and turning america into a theocracy is appalling. I’m glad people are standing up to their bullying.

  • JacobBe5

    Please coordinate to do this as a group. Dump all your stock on the same day. If you actually own enough it’ll cause a drop in the price.

    And those of us who support loving couples, who support ethical businesses, and support equality will get the shares of such a company at a discount.

  • David Patrick Maurer

    i support starbucks. 49,000 signatures against the tens of millions of americans who support marriage equality is a drop of water in a big bucket. this organization is on the wrong side of history, no different than those who said that blacks shouldn’t have the vote, or that women couldn’t have their own credit cards. the world has moved on, and these few will continue to fall even further behind.

  • CCVirginia

    If there is one thing the mess of the middle east shows us, it is the wisdom of the separation of church and state. If we share this position we must question if “marriage” as defined by the state with various tax and other benefits is the same idea as is defended by Christians. Perhaps the state should not encoumber this legal condition with the views of any religion. Likewise religion need not be as concerned with what the state calls marriage – they are just different concepts. It seems that Starbucks is simply supporting the separation of church and state.

  • EchelonInferno

    Even the headline is skewed, indicating that Mr Schultz said if you support Biblical marriage, you should sell your shares. What he ACTUALLY said was If you think you can get better than a 38% return, you can sell your shares. What a crock (and yes, I’m a Christian)!

  • Fiona Mackenzie

    When you have an untenable position, like wanting to prevent same-sex marriage, you have to work up your followers with hyperbole and hate. It somewhat replaces intellectual competence. Now, and for quite a while, I am going to drive out of my way to get my coffee at Starbucks at least three times a week.

  • Fiona Mackenzie

    “what is written in the bible is there for a purpose” — Yes, but not a purpose that many of us can get on board with–especially considering the partisanship and hate and abuse of people with other beliefs. The purpose is, at least in part, to rally the members by giving them a common enemy–the people who don’t believe as they do.

  • withJezos

    Lol. I like how you changed what he said in the headline. Go ahead and lie to mobilize Rightists. That’s how you usually do it.

  • Pip

    Wow. Imagine if the thing that made you feel good, was boycotting a company who stands up for people in love getting married. Imagine if your choices were based on those companies who share your values of hate and bigotry. Good work America, this is why the rest of the world shake their head at you.

  • Pip

    If Jesus ran a restaurant and a gay couple/family came in, do you honestly think that he would turn them away? Or throw a tantrum because he wasn’t allowed to turn them away… if you really want to call yourself “Christian” perhaps have a little think of WWJD?

  • dogon

    meanwhile navada wants to force people to go tochurch

  • Elaygee

    God bless Starbucks for choosing justice over hate

  • Darryl Andre

    Actually, douche bag reporter, that is not what he said. But your report is typically sensationalized, like everything christian.

  • scott

    LOL…I have to chuckle when self-righteous religious minded people use the term “bibilical marriage” as a counter argument to Gay marriage. “Biblical” marriage prescribes that you marry a virgin. How many ‘virgins” are there to marry? “Biblical marriage” also prescribes that the wife is subservient to the husband. That the wife looks after the children and the house. “Biblical marriage,” does not include divorce or marrying a woman who has been married before. “Biblical marriage,” also calls on the brothers of the dead husband to financially support the widow and her children. “Biblical marriage,’ also views women as property, like wise any daughters as well. Only male children are worthy of owning property. If you are going to recite ‘biblical’ scripture, be sure to include ALL teachings that apply to the topic being discussed. By the way…all you women need to have your heads covered, no make up , no manis or pedis and definitely take all the jewelry off.

  • http://batman-news.com Eric Kaver

    And this site represents itself as a Christian site? Yet, you start this story with a lie? The play on words is excellent to push readership and to push your agenda, but it is quiet simply a lie. Is that Christ like? Hmmm?

  • Br. Bill

    What a hardcore spin job you are smearing on this story! Does Christian News also report things like, “New Peace Treaty Puts Hardworking Suicide Bombers Out of Work”?

    Disgusting.

  • Tony McGrath

    America. The only country on Earth where it still sadly seems to matter what the opinions of Christians are. Why don’t your live your own lives and stop dispensing unnecessary outdated advice to a world that doesn’t care.

  • http://DolphinHeartProductions.com Craig Richards

    Liars. Starbuck CEO never said what your headline claims. He said his company is committed to inclusion and equality, things which every follower of Christ would already be doing! Please fellow Christians, save your outrage, not for love and respect, but for cruelty and inequity! You’ve allowed yourselves to be distracted!

  • LeAnn

    Way to go Starbucks! You will now have my full support. Screw all these Christian anti-rights activists preaching their hate. You don’t need that small minority as customers anyway. I say goodbye and good riddance.

  • David

    Nice way to spin the story, Christian News. Looks like your journalistic integrity is taking a back seat to your personal beliefs.

  • RoadrageinWY

    I applaud Starbucks for not caving in to pressures from groups that want to restrict “liberty and justice for all” – INCLUDING the right of two people, no matter what their gender, to join their lives, if they choose to do so. I am a christian, believe in God, and surely don’t feel that my faith in a higher power is threatened in the least by women who choose to end a pregnancy, particularly if it’s due to an assault of some sort, or whatever reason; by gay persons living their lives as they wish, and on and on….it is none of our business what happens in a person’s private life, and we should not try to make it so, unless it threatens national security in some manner. Personal distaste for someone’s life style or choices in their daily life is NOT grounds for browbeating them or trying to make them to conform to OUR way of thinking (which may be wrong, if we are truly christian). This country is going backward and soon we’ll be back in the Victorian age when women had to wear long dresses for fear of showing an ankle, when women couldn’t vote; when we were considered no more than chattels (who remembers when a woman could not open a bank account or charge account without her husband’s permission? Who truly wants to go back to that? Let’s butt out of other people’s lives and quit trying to Stepford those who may not live as WE want them to.

  • jankjdl

    I’m for starbucks. Pretty sure Jesus taught love and understanding.

  • Alfred Laurence

    Good for Starbucks. Their coffee is a little expensive, but I will support any company that stands up to the religious bigots trying to destroy this country with their nonsensical cult fairytale’s and folklore.

  • disqus_jJpJf5wW08

    I’m a Christian, and I give a thumbs up to Starbucks love and respect of their employees. ….. that is very Christian.

  • Dana Hoglind

    Your headline is out of context and is not what he said at all. Since when is lying a traditional Christian value?

  • Rick

    There is no “traditional marriage” in Christian scripture. There are MANY forms of marriage in Christian scripture. One of the recent lessons from the Revised Common Lectionary, used in many Christian denominations, said the Lord God is the husband of the nation of Israel and the nation of Judah. For most “traditional” Christian scripture marriage is a contract for chattel between a man and the father of the person he desired to marry; the chattel being the person (usually a female and very young) which the contract covered. There are “traditional” marriages (emphasis on the plural) in the United States and many other countries. Some of those “traditional” marriages are even codified into law and licensed (creating a contract) by governmental agencies. In the United States that means they cannot use religious principals per the non-establishment clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America. When are the rest of you “Christians” going to learn to read and understand our own scriptures? When are going to insist on protection of the Constitution, one condition of which is to protect minorities from the majorities such as ignorant Christians who actually believe the United States was founded as a “Christian” nation. Have none of you learned to read? Yet, you vote!?!

  • Louise Reeves

    Do these idiotic “Christians” even know what a “biblical marriage” is? First, it has nothing to do with love and everything to do with enslavement. The woman, traded for goods, becomes owned by the husband. While he can consort with concubines, if she consorts, she is put to death. She can not own anything and can be put out on a whim. Until the beginning of the 20th century, if a woman sought divorce, she lost her children to the man, regardless of why the divorce was sought. If the husband dies, she can only marry the brother of him-essentially being passed onto the next. Morons…

    • Jim Deferio

      What id Jesus say?
      Also, why such indignation? I s that RIGHTEOUS indignation you are spouting? If so, please explain the basis and standard for such “righteousness”.

      WHAT is marriage? Would you forbid a mother to “marry” her adult daughter? Would you dent equality in marriage to them? Since procreation is not possible the incest objection becomes moot. So what IS the basis of marriage?

      • Louise Reeves

        Who cares what Jesus said? Strawman arguments, re incest. Marriage should be between two consenting adults who wish to share their lives forever. And by the way, “incest” between consenting adults is legal in many states and first cousins can marry in many states as well, so your point is pointless. This is not about that. This is about so-called “Christians” who have no idea what “biblical marriage” entails, yet call for boycotting companies that don’t adhere to that nonsense.

        • Jim Deferio

          Who says “marriage” should only be between TWO consenting adults you wicked bigot? WHY are you against marriage equality for the polyamorous? Where do YOU get off imposing your arbitrary standards on the rest of society, you hater?!

          Stop the discrimination against the polyamorous, bigot!

          Oh, and byw, you never answered my questions…

          • Louise Reeves

            Your “questions” are stupid. Marry whoever you want if they would be nuts enough to have you. Who are you to say gays can’t marry? You don’t look like a god or a member of the Supreme Court. You’re comparing gay marriage to incest and I’m a bigot? Unlike you, I have no issue with people’s choices because they have nothing to do with me, affect me or take anything away from me. Unlike these so-called “Christians” who want to regulate what goes on in the privacy of people’s homes, I couldn’t care less. Everyone deserves the freedom to marry whomever they choose and not have to cowtow to bible thumpers who have no idea what they’re talking about.

          • Jim Deferio

            You homosexualists are the bigots. Why are you discriminating against those who favor polygyny and polyandry? Why are you limiting “marriage” to only TWO people?
            I thought you homosexualists were all for EQUALITY?

          • James Whistler

            Jim, if you want to marry your mom and both sisters and maybe a great aunt, it’s OK with me.

        • Jim Deferio

          WHO are you that you can impose your arbitrary values onto the rest of us, you bigot! Who says marriage can only be between TWO people, YOU? Who are you but a bigot who discriminates against the polyamorous and wants to deny marriage equality to them.

          You are a HATER and a wicked person who thinks that you can tell others what to do and what is what? Are YOU God? Are YOU the ruler of this world? You are nothing but a bigoted intolerant hater who discriminates.

          • James Whistler

            Jim says, “You are a HATER and a wicked person who thinks that you can tell others
            what to do and what is what? Are YOU God? Are YOU the ruler of this
            world? You are nothing but a bigoted intolerant hater who discriminates.”

            Unaware of the sense of the actual words, he seems to like the meter and cadence of what other people have said about him.

          • Jim Deferio

            Is THAT your defense? LOL
            Btw, I’m quite aware of what I say and why but you have much to learn.

            By your own admission that Bertrand Russell is your number one hero, you may want to do an epistemological survey of where your standards for ethics and moral indignation come from and why anyone is under obligation to listen to you.

  • Inspiridos

    So hear we have a Christian haq bearing false witness and attempting to spin Starbuck’s steadfast resolve to be opposed to hate and bigotry (two very Christian ideals) into being against traditional marriage. The thing is these bigots in Christian clothing are still just bigots and many of us see through their disguise. Shame on this author.

  • The Posthuman

    These comments are all a wonderful example of how meaningless all of this bullshit is when none of you can agree on even the simplest aspects of your superstitions.

    Yay, progress. :) Yay, gay people. :) Boo, superstition and bigotry. :(

  • chadwick123

    if you think an ancient book of jewish fairy tales justifies your irrational fear of homosexuals, then sell your shares of starbucks. And your shares of everything. Leave the county. Go hide in a hole somewhere. No one will bother you and no one will miss you

  • JR

    Seriously? That heading is so misleading and total hogwash. He said and I quote: “Not every decision is an economic decision. Despite the fact that you recite statistics that are narrow in time, we did provide a 38% shareholder return over the last year. I don’t know how many things you invest in, but I would suspect not many things, companies, products, investments have returned 38% over the last 12 months. Having said that, it is not an economic decision to me. The lens in which we are making that decision is through the lens of our people. We employ over 200,000 people in this company, and we want to embrace diversity — of all kinds. If you feel, respectfully, that you can get a higher return than the 38% you got last year, it’s a free country. You can sell your shares in Starbucks and buy shares in another company. Thank you very much.” EMBRACE DIVERSITY… he is not going to discriminate against his employees or customers because some individuals have a religious belief that promotes that. You do have the freedom to divest of your stocks like any shareholder. If you do not support the company’s actions or beliefs then by all means choose to shop elsewhere or invest elsewhere. But he is not saying he is AGAINST Biblical Marriage… he is against discrimination. You do your readers a disservice by misrepresenting what he said.

  • Tristan A

    It is almost funny to read all those peoples comments referring to the “holy” bible. They clearly accept the bible as the one and only truth, given by god to people. Still these people celibrate their sabbat on Sunday, not on Saturdays as the bible commands. Why? Did somebody mess up in history?

    No, it was a deliberate choice by emperor constantine. The romans had been fighting christians for a few hundred years and couldnt win. So if you cant beat them you join them. But only on his terms. So he merged the then state religion which was worshipping the sun (and made the emperor the representative of god on earth) with christianity. He declared the sunday as the holiday. So basically we are still worshipping a peagan god (the sun) even though we claim to be christians. And btw, this emperor rebranded himself to pope. So our dear Christian leader of today is nothing more than an old fashioned aroman Emperor look alike.

    Why is this relevant? Because it was the same emperor that organized the counsil of Nicea where he put some 300+ priests together to compile the bible. Texts where included, and others excluded. Some where partly rewritten. The ones that where excluded where declared herretic immidiately and to be burned. Same for the originals of rewritten texts. Hence, it is difficult to find out now what has been excluded or changed. The people of that 300+ that where opposing the majority consensus where killed on the spot. Not very godlike…. Also please know that many texts have been rewritten many times, interpreted, translated, etc.

    So to declare the bible to be the only truth and coming straight from god is not based on the facts. What we do know for sure is that it has been put together by people, under the direction of an emperor who was clearly willing to bend the truth to make it work for him (ensuring further consolidation of his power) and enforcing it with dead if need be. So it is safe to assume that the Bible does include time depending social influences and opinions at least, and much likely power enhancing features for the then emperor/pope, for example the importance of Saint Peter being the rock to build the church upon. Very convenient for a Roman Emperor…

    We might have been fighting for the right to marry for heterosexuals now if Peter had landed in Greece and not in Rome.

    One of the power features in the Christian/Catholic religion is the focus on producing Children as much as possible. Families with lots of children are engaged in a daily struggle to survive. It is almost impossible to progress in life if you come from a family of many. There is just not enough money for good education or individual personal attention from the parents to get a child the needed coaching to progress. That goes for the developed world, and especially for the 3rd world. Therefore it keeps people docile and submissive, as the church (with its celibate) has the almost monopoly on knowledge. And knowledge is power (hence the historical prosecution of scientists by the church. This is the same reason why the church opposes the use of condoms and other birth control measures. While these have been the major contributors to the development in the post ww2 world.

    Why is homosexuality a sin according to christian religion? Because they don’t procreate, and therefore not voluntarily enslave themselves. They are known for their creativity, free thinking, etc. basically, they are much more difficult to submit. That is why it is a sin… Basically they are too talented to be bothered by children.

    So basically, homosexuals are engaged in the same fight as the earlier declared sinners like the scientists who declared that the earth is round, or that the earth moves around the sun and not the other way around. Many christians even would still go as far today as to have homosexuals burned on a stake or allowed to being bullied.

    We should have learned by now that blindly following the church and christianity is not the best guidance for society and only leads us back to the dark ages. That christianity has very litte credibility when it comes to moral issues (it is still the religion that murdered more people than all other religions and semi religions – Nazism, Communism, stalinism, etc -combined).

    You can believe whatever you want, but dont be naieve. And if you choose to do so, dont impose it on others. Just remember that the bible was written by people, the selection and editing process was highly politicized with a clear objective to preserve power and these machinations still form the foundation of the (catholic) church who has a leader, the pope, who is more a reincarnation of a roman emperor than a direct representative of god.

    Homosexuality is not a choice nor a life style. People are born homosexual and they die homosexual. It is about love and attraction. It is about stable committed long lasting relationship. It is about people. We refuse to be just another historical victim of the powergames of christianity. Dont judge us on a book that has flawed origins. The dark ages ended long time ago.

    • Tristan A

      By the way, one of the most beautiful stories in the bible is about David and Jonathan. Please have a close look at Samuel 2, Chapter 1, verse
      26, where David morns for his fallen lover Jonathan:


      I am distressed for thee,
      my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was
      wonderful, passing the love of women.


      David might not have been Gay, but he was
      bi-sexual for sure. If you read Samuel 1 you find one of the most homo-erotic
      love stories to be found in the bible. And we all know that Jesus Christ was of
      Davids House. Therefore Jesus must have had bi-sexual genes in him.

      • Jim Deferio

        You read this text as someone whose mind is defiled and is it any wonder that you come to absurd and immoral conclusions.

        The love that David and Jonathan had for one another was a close brotherly love that surpassed the love of women – in other words IT WASN’T SEXUAL. David was sexually driven with women and that is why he committed adultery with Bathsheba and took multiple wives.

        In 2 Sam.1:26 David calls Jonathan his “brother”. David’s own flesh and blood brothers had contempt for him!

        Titus 1:15
        “To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.”

    • Jim Deferio

      You are one dumbed down confused individual. The Nicene Council came together not to organize books and make a Bible but to consider the Arian heresy. There was a canon of New testament books way before 325 AD. The Muratorian Canon is dated about 170 AD and Polycarp of Smyrna, Clement of Rome, and Ignatius of Antioch cite all the books of the New Testament in their writings which date between 90 and 115 AD, except 2 John and Jude.

      Also, I personally know numerous EX-homosexuals and I know what the science says. I am willing to debate you face to face in front of an audience on a college campus if you live in the lower 48 states.

      You are a wicked liar and obviously uneducated. Christianity resulted in more murders than all other religions and semi-religions??? Scholar R.J. Rummel in his book, “Death by Government” and in his other work entitled “The Statistics of Democide: Genocide and Mass Murder since 1900″ and also scholars Charles Philips & Alan Axelrod in their book “Encyclopedia of Wars” prove you to be a liar to the nth degree. You are so wrong that it is disgusting. How do you even live with yourself?

      • Tristan A

        Uneducated? I hold multiple university degrees in maths, economics and business science. I don’t claim to be a genius, but uneducated is quite a bold statement from your side. My english might not be the best, but that is because I am not a native speaker.

        Just look at the number of people that have died from HIV in countries where the Catholic church is dominant. By forbidding the use of condoms the Catholic church condemned millions of people to a death from AIDS. That is after 1900. I can also name the hunt for heretics in the dark ages, the burning of people on the stake, the crusaders, the millions of native people killed in name of the church in South America, the suppression of the huggenots in France, the prosecution of Jews during the middle ages, the influence of christianity on the establishment of apartheid, the condoning of the palestinian humanitarian disaster caused by Israelis, the silence from the church regarding the holocaust (when it was actually happening) etc. etc. etc. You can only conclude with me that when it comes to morality Christianity has hardly a good story to tell… So don’t talk to me about morals or immorality. The institutionalized form of Christianity is not a basis for such a judgement.

        There are no ex-homosexuals. There are maybe homosexuals that are able to suppress their own identity to conform to the social norm of their environment. I pity them. And i despise the environments that deny people to live their lives with the love they deserve.

        I note from your comment that you did not try to “defuse” my remarks regarding the Sunday. So I assume you happily worship the sun during your holy day. And therefore agree that there is clearly an influence from power structures on the institutionalized form of christianity as we know it today. You also did not comment on the fact that the bible has been translated and edited many times in its multi millennia history. It was written by many people with their own opinions formed by the historical context. And therefore the texts can not be seen independent of their historical contexts. Hence my comment about Rome vs. Greece.

        You and the likes of you tell us that we have to take the statements it the bible that forbid homosexuality literal, while when I do the same about a story that is clearly bi-sexual in nature you conclude my mind is defiled and my literal conclusion is only an interpretation…. Jonathan gave David pleasure, and he clearly liked it (more than the love of women).

        If we would take the Christian writings literally one by one, or any other religions scripture (Judaism, Islam, etc.) and would model our society in accordance to these scriptures, the result would be the same. We would put the clock of history five centuries back and transfer ourselves back into the dark ages. That is clearly the age you feel most comfortable. If ISIS was Christian based it would be clearly your home.

        I can tell you that I live quite happily with myself. I am a very pleasant human being, considerate and compassionate. I travel quite a lot and the biggest lessen I have learned that every society is its own wisdom embedded in its culture. The biggest gift to me is that it made me able to learn from such wisdom, and to forego judgement (as far as humanly possible). I think I could teach you a few things, even though I am clearly “uneducated”.

        Or you might just buy yourself a book “Compassion for dummies”. I bet it would make you a much better person, even in the eyes of Jesus, God or any other Deity (Sun???) you might choose.

        • Tristan A

          I also conclude that you clearly agreed with my comments on the “production” of children vs the church power over people. If not, I am very curious on your comments on this perspective :-)

      • James Whistler

        Jim, amidst a litany of name calling, claims, “Also, I personally know numerous EX-homosexuals and I know what the science says.”

        You go, girl! Get whatever you can out of that little mutual support group you’re in.

        • Jim Deferio

          Well, James, you must absolutely hate the way facts mess up your ideology.
          Name me ONE thing natural and rational about the homosexual sex act – JUST ONE!

          • James Whistler

            Spoken like a true “ex” homosexual.

          • Jim Deferio

            I never said that I was an EX-homosexual, however I do personally know numerous EX-homosexuals. Before I was saved and came to the knowledge of the truth my sin was the religion of atheism, pre-marital sex (fornication), drugs, booze, and lying and stealing.
            I was saved on March 3, 1973. I have two science degrees, kids who are in their 30’s and five grandkids. Oh, and in August my wife and I will have been married for 40 years! We’re planning on hiking the Pacific Crest Trail in Oregon to celebrate (we’ve done it before when we lived in Oregon). GOD IS GOOD!!!

          • James Whistler

            It sounds like your religion has done you a world of good. So why are you so outspoken against gay people? Does your religion really compel you to do so?

          • Jim Deferio

            In the traditional sense of the word “religion” I do not have a religion but a personal relationship with God through the resurrected Christ. In the more recent definitions given to the word, then yes, I do have a religion (and so do evolutionists and atheists).

            Homosexuality is against God’s laws as stated in the Bible but I usually use natural law arguments for my reasons against homosexuality.

            Homosexualists are beyond reason. Reason would dictate that if you are born male with male sexual reproductive organs designed by your DNA for the opposite sex then THAT is the reasonable way to use them.

            Reason would dictate that if you are born female with female sexual reproductive organs designed by your DNA for the opposite sex then THAT is the reasonable way to use them.

            Homosexualists are irrrational, unnatural and perverted. There is NO biological/genetic link to homosexuality only FEELINGS and feelings do not have a rational basis or a biological basis. Example: take two people watching the exact same movie; during a scene one of the viewers tears up but the other laughs.

            What research has shown is that idiosyncratic responses to environmental factors begins shaping people from childhood on. “Homosexuals” are shaped, molded, and, nowadays, indoctrinated into this deathstyle.

            Actually, you are wrong. Brain studies have shown that there are no clear structural differences between males and females at birth but differences develop LATER as a result of nurture and hormonal surges. Brains are plastic. Nurture and other environmental factors including purposeful thought patterns and activities shape brains and sexual orientations. These are all mutable!

            The studies are far too numerous to list all of them but here are two.
            Byne W. 1995. Science and belief: Psychobiological research on sexual orientation. Journal of Homosexuality 30:303-44

            Doidge N. 2007. The Brain That Changes Itself. London, UK. Penguin Books.

            The paper on idiosyncratic factors in response to environmental factors is based on very large twin studies since 2001. Here’s the citation and an explanation from me.

            “Whitehead, N. 2011. Neither Genes Nor Choice: Same-sex attraction is mostly a unique reaction to environmental factors. Journal of Human Sexuality 3:81-114.
            *** Don’t be confused by the title. What is demonstrated in this research that accesses numerous large twin studies since 2001 is this: idiosyncratic responses to environmental factors during childhood and adolescence influences individuals into various directions. There is no contributing genetic factor and there is no conscious “choice” involved that would correspond to the kind of choice that a mature, consciously aware, and informed adult would make after deliberating between options.

          • James Whistler

            None of that explains why YOU are so outspoken against homosexuality. So it doesn’t make sense to you. So what? Lots of people do lots of things that don’t make sense to me.

          • Jim Deferio

            That’s it? THAT is your feeble attempt at a rebuttal?
            Logic is universal, invariant, transcendent, and prescriptive. If you destroy the basis for reasoning then you have put yourself into a position that you cannot make sense of anything for the person communicating something to you may mean the direct opposite. Language (which is logic based) breaks down.

            Does it make “sense” to try to stuff a hamburger into your ear? Does it? It may make “sense” to someone high on LSD or who is under delusion but obviously the ear was designed to receive sound waves and not hamburgers.

            Homosexuality is sinful, irrational, unnatural, and it carries severe health risks. If you fight against nature then nature will fight against you. Just check out the CDC for all of the health risks associated with homosexuality and with sex practices that sin against God and the clear commands of the Bible.

            Also, this professional medical association has a very good article on non-coital sex called, “Addressing Health Risks of Noncoital Sexual Activity” by the American Congress of Obstetricians & Gynecologists. (Apparently DISQUS is not allowing me to post the link so you’ll have to look it up yourself.)

          • James Whistler

            Who cares whether some people might stuff hamburgers in their ears?

            In particular, why do you care so much?

          • Jim Deferio

            How about YOU answering that question? And WHY are you on a Christian website trolling?

            If you can’t figure out what I already said, shame on you.

          • James Whistler

            I’m not trolling. I’m collecting information about how people talk to each other about gay rights on public web sites, for my senior thesis at my Jesuit college. Thanks for the material, Jim!

          • Jim Deferio

            Your welcome, lol.
            If you are telling the truth you need to know that Roman Catholicism is NOT Christian. They have added to and taken away from the Bible and they are steeped in occultic religious practices.

            “Gay rights”? Civil rights are based on natural rights and natural rights are based on human nature and basic human nature is a RATIONAL substance in relationship. When I say “human nature” I’m speaking of basic ontology and teleology.

            Homosexualists have NO rights for they have dehumanized themselves by their irrational and perverse relationships. They should be jailed at the very least and kept in solitary confinement.

            Maybe you should read Thomas Aquinus…

          • James Whistler

            I’ve read Thomas Aquinas extensively. It’s part of the curriculum.

            Shall I send a note to Pope Francis and inform him that Jim Deferio does not know that Jesuits (Society of Jesus, dude) are Christians?

            Inquiring minds are just waiting for your next opinion, Jim. As you’ve admitted, you’re well versed in some aspects of human nature (theft, perjury, adultery, fornication, et cetera ad nauseum) but remain ignorant of others (self-respect, love, commitment, honesty, and minding one’s own business).

          • Jim Deferio

            Apparently Aquinus’ arguments from natural law went clear over your head.

            “POPE”? Where’s THAT in the Bible? You are “Christians” just like the “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” are Christians, IN NAME ONLY. How about reading and obeying the Bible and stop following tradition and men?

            Speaking of “minding one’s own business”, don’t forget it was YOU who began instigating things by singling me out in a comment.

            “Love”? How does the Bible define “love”. Do you even know? You are the one being dishonest so drop the charade and come clean. Confess and repent of your sins (and NOT to a “priest”).

            You need to be born again, James, and being sprinkled with water as an infant does make you regenerated it only made you wet and it made your parents look like fools. READ THE BIBLE.

            In case you ever wondered where “love your neighbor as yourself” comes from, read Leviticus 19:15-18 and notice the context.

            LEVITICUS 19:15-18
            ‘You shall do no injustice in judgment. You shall not be partial to the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty. In righteousness you shall judge your neighbor.
            16) You shall not go about as a talebearer among your people; nor shall you take a stand against the life of your neighbor: I am the Lord.

            17) ‘You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him.
            18) You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.
            (NewKJV)

            And as far as love for God, you need to heed John 14:15.

            Oh, and ask your professors how many Christians Roman Catholics murdered and about the cruelty of the Jesuits. History is full of the innocent victims of you murderers. Shame on you.

          • James Whistler

            I’m not a Jesuit, but I attend a Jesuit college. There they teach us to question everything, and to think for ourselves. I’m studying theology and math. I am not a particularly good student, I must admit. I do realize that Christians have throughout history often been a force of evil in the world, and in some cases, are still today. You were impugning my knowledge of Christianity, sir, but I have extensive knowledge of it, I assure you.

            You ask how the Bible defines love. That’s a good question. Do you know the answer? There is not a shred of biblical evidence, for example, that Adam and Eve loved each other. There is not a shred of evidence that either Jesus or Paul ever loved a woman, or ever married. Paul did recommend marriage for those men who could not contain their carnal desires, and recommended against polygamy, but only for certain priests in a specific locale. There is much in the bible about Jonathan’s love for David, however.

            I didn’t mention anything about “love thy neighbor as thyself”, but I do my best to obey the golden rule, a form of which was professed at least as early as Confucius (500 BC) “Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself.”.

          • Jim Deferio

            Well, everyone has a different learning curve and I wouldn’t become discouraged. My three kids (all now in their 30’s) are evidence of that. My oldest daughter was going almost up to and beyond my wife and I when she was only twelve (and we both have college science degrees) but then she plateuaed probably in her 20’s. The other two seem to have caught up with her but only because they read and study a lot.

            You seem to claim that you don’t know how the Bible defines love but then claim (on what basis I don’t know) that Adam didn’t “love” Eve.

            As for bJonathan and David, David said that Jonathan’s love for him “was wonderful, surpassing the love of women” (2 Samuel 1:26). In other words, it was non-sexual. It was a deep loyalty that surpassed what Jonathan’s sister Michal (David’s wife) had for David.

            David certainly had a thing for women for he quickly violated Deuteronomy 17:17 and took many wives (at least eight!) and he committed adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband set up so that he would be killed in battle to cover up the adultery.

            According to the self-imposed regulations the Pharisees had, (and Paul had been a Pharisee), they were supposed to be married. What happened to Paul’s wife is a mystery. Jesus’ bride (in the spiritual sense) is the church (see 2 Cor. 11:2 and Revelation 19:7 , 21:2 and 21:9).

            Feelings come and go and they often do not comport with reality (that is, they have no rational basis for justifiably acting on them). Feelings and love do not often coincide. If so, David was justified for having sex with Bathsheba. Love is of God and does not cause anyone or “influence” anyone to break God’s commandments. GOD IS LOVE (1 John 4:8 & 16) so how does God, in the Bible define love. What is He like, what does He do? The Bible says love is______. Fill it in.

            Btw, I would transfer to another college. I hope you’re not at LeMoye!

          • James Whistler

            “As for Jonathan and David, David said that Jonathan’s love for him ‘was
            wonderful, surpassing the love of women’ (2 Samuel 1:26). In other
            words, it was non-sexual.”

            In still other words, it was blindingly, fabulously, fuckingly sexual.

          • Jim Deferio

            Bingo! You finally came out of your closet! Now that you have confessed your dirty sin how about repenting of it?

            Testimony time from PEOPLE CAN CHANGE dot com.

            FLOYD GODFREY
            becoming the man i was attracted to

            Floyd and his wife have been married since 1992. They have 3 children and reside in Gilbert, Arizona. He is a Licensed Professional Counselor in private practice in the Phoenix area.

            Hope At Last

            I was 22 years old in 1990 when yet another fruitless counseling session with yet another therapist came to its weekly close. For four years, I had sought help from parents, three therapists and numerous spiritual advisors in a largely unsuccessful and frustrating effort to find a way free from the compulsive homosexual longings that tormented me.

            Now, almost as an afterthought, this therapist told me something that would change the course of my life: A group of men who were supporting each other in overcoming homosexuality had recently formed an organization calledEvergreen in Salt Lake City, and they were about to host their first conference.

            I soon found myself driving 400 miles to attend the first Evergreen conference, full of hope that at last I might be on the brink of discovering the truth about my homosexual feelings. Starved for answers, I prayed for understanding and spiritual nourishment.

            What I found in Salt Lake City was a banquet of new information and insight that rang true for me in a way that nothing had before. Here at last were the answers I had been praying for!

            One of the most inspiring moments at the conference for me came when keynote speaker Jeff Konrad, author of “You Don’t Have to be Gay,” related the story of his own recovery. He was a man who once had been caught up in the gay lifestyle but, through years of hard spiritual and emotional work, had finally found healing.

            I was also introduced for the first time to reparative therapy, a therapeutic model that emphasized the need for a conflicted homosexual to “repair” his male self-image and broken male relationships of his childhood and youth.

            Until I felt fully masculine, I would never feel “man enough” for a woman.

            I learned that I hadn’t been able to pray away my homosexual attractions because they were not, at their roots, a spiritual problem. The unwanted attractions were symptoms of emotional problems that I needed to resolve, not be relieved of. I hadn’t been able to force opposite-sex attractions because my more basic, core need for male identity and masculine affirmation had not yet been met adequately. Until I felt fully masculine, I would never feel “man enough” for a woman.

            Alive with hope at last, I returned from the conference and immediately began working with a new therapist I had met there who was experienced with reparative therapy. He helped me work through gender insecurity issues and correct my many misperceptions of maleness and the male world – everything from the meaning of spontaneous erections to my unrequited longing for normal male friendships, both of which I had grossly misinterpreted as indications that I was probably “born gay.” These misunderstandings had in turn become somewhat of a self-fulfilling fixation on homosexual thoughts, feelings and culture.

            Overcoming Gender Insecurity

            With my therapy clearly focused now on my masculine development as a boy and my sense of gender inadequacy, I began to reinterpret my history in a whole new light — a light that illuminated my present turmoil. I recalled a childhood of emotional turmoil and confusion. The boys who were in my class played rough-and-tumble games during recess. I never joined in. I didn’t know how to play the games and was afraid of getting hurt. I felt so uncoordinated.

            Since I didn’t play with other boys during recess, I found a group of girls to spend time with. We played jump rope and “house” and climbed on the monkey bars. We played “Star Wars,” and I always got to be Luke Skywalker. He was strong and courageous and a hero everyone liked. This was the kind of play that was comfortable and “safe” for me; I avoided the humiliation that inevitably came with playing with the boys.

            Even while I avoided boys, I desperately wanted to have other boys as friends. I wanted to hang out with them, join in their games and feel like I fit in. I wanted to belong. In P.E., all the other boys were so much better at the activities than I. While their bodies were developing and starting the path toward manhood, I was skinny and undeveloped. I was embarrassed with my body and tried to be very modest so the other boys wouldn’t notice how thin I was.

            The Opposite Sex?

            One of the boys in P.E. had started lifting weights, and one day in the locker room, he flexed his biceps for us. We all stood around and admired. At that moment I was aware of an attraction to him that seemed to go beyond the admiration that I thought the other boys felt. In my eyes, he was confident and admired; and I was his opposite. I believed if I were more like him, other boys would want to be my friends. I wanted to be confident and admired.

            I wanted to be confident and admired.

            Now it is amazingly clear to me that the moment I first felt something like an erotic attraction to another guy was the very moment that I first identified myself as the emotional and physical opposite to that guy. Unknowingly, I was seeing myself as being the opposite sex from him. No wonder my psycho-sexual subconscious told me to be attracted to him and not to the girls with whom I identified!

            Over time, I became more and more preoccupied with these longings to be like the more masculine boys as I watched them play sports and envied their abilities and their bodies. I would often sit in class and day-dream about having the perfect body, pitching on a baseball team, and having a lot of male friends who admired me. I watched other boys and idolized the way they interacted together. In my mind I had a perfect picture of what a “cool guy” should be like was outgoing, popular, sports-oriented, good looking and physically developed – all the things I was not.

            My day dreams became more and more sensual in nature, which led me to discover masturbation. The high of the orgasm rewarded and reinforced my same-sex preoccupation. Admiration combined with self-ridicule had turned to envy, and envy was now turned to lust.

            Reconnecting to Masculinity

            Under the tutelage of a skilled reparative therapist, I found it wasn’t too late to turn the pattern of my life around by correcting the gender insecurity and envy that had caused my lust for maleness to begin with. Determined not to spend the rest of my life running from masculine environments out of fear, I decided it was time to grow up and face my fears instead.

            One of the first things I thought I would try was softball. Church softball. It sounds benign enough now, but I was so terrified that I pulled over on my way to my first game and threw up by the side of the road. Throughout the game, I fought the shakes and a numbed-over feeling. I struck out and did absolutely everything wrong. I learned from this that I needed to step back and get some basic coaching and have some private practice before I took what for me was such a huge step.

            I even got a job at a Chevron gas station so I could be around guys and learn mechanics.

            I did that, and then went on to take beginning softball, basketball, weight lifting and gymnastics at the junior college I was attending. This was terrifying, but by taking small, measured steps in environments where I could maximize my chances of success, I became more competent and confident. I even got a job at a Chevron gas station so I could be around guys and learn mechanics. Little by little, I felt myself growing as a man. No longer sitting on the sidelines longing to be “one of the guys,” I was becoming what I was attracted to in others.

            It’s not that learning to play sports or fix cars made me more heterosexual; that gross over-simplification is ludicrous. Rather, these were external methods to effect much-needed internal healing: facing my fear of activities and environments — my fear of men, really — that had so crippled me my whole life; internalizing deep feelings of finally feeling “man enough”; and dramatically increasing my sense of “gender esteem” and connection to the male world.

            The road to healing was a difficult one filled with ups and downs. Along the way, I faced feelings of rejection from my peers and father. I worked to overcome feelings of inadequacy and incompetence as a man. As I worked with my counselor to fill my emotional needs, extinguish harmful behaviors, and heal emotional wounds, I noticed my homosexual compulsions becoming less intense. With time, they began to subside. Then, subtly, I noticed heterosexual feelings starting to emerge. These new feelings grew slowly as I continued progressing through the recovery process.

            Marriage and Recommitment

            As heterosexual feelings began to take root, marriage seemed more of a reality. My circle of friends grew with my confidence and new skills. Dating and socializing became fun and exciting. It was at this point that a long-standing, close friendship with a girl named Kae — a girl whom I had once “come out” to as a gay man — became more intimate. I shared my breakthrough experiences in therapy with her, and we began dating with new inclinations. My new feelings drew me closer to her than I had felt in the past. Wanting our growing emotional intimacy also to become a physical one, I asked her to marry me. She said yes, and we were married in 1992.

            Unfortunately, I became overconfident in many of the changes I had made in my life. Focused on my marriage and my busy new life as a newlywed, I let some of the things go that had been so integral to my healing: my new friendships with heterosexual men, sports activities, platonic heart-to-heart connections with men that had given me so much masculine affirmation. I had abandoned the very things that had healed my masculine soul to begin with. And I soon paid the price.

            A year into my marriage, I went down a road that resulted in me having sex with another man for the first time in my life. It felt so terrific in the moment — and so devastating as soon as it was over. This was not what I wanted in my life! This was in direct opposition to everything I had worked for for years.

            Devastated at the pain and insecurity I had caused my new wife, and terrified of losing her, I “hit bottom” fast. I confessed to her and we went into marriage counseling. I sought and received spiritual counseling from my church. I got back into the friendship-building and “guy time” that had been so healing before. I saw that I had approached those relationships and activities as a transient therapy, after which I would be “done” and could go back to my old self. No, I now realized, I needed to effect an actual personality transformation where constantly nourishing my myself with masculinity, constantly participating with guys the way that most healthy straight guys do, is engrained in who I am.

            I returned to those activities, and the internal transformation did take place. But I no longer consider myself “done” nourishing myself as a man, any more than I can ever be done nourishing myself with healthy food and drink. And as long as I have done this, homosexual lust has never again been a serious problem in my life.

            People Can Change!

            All of this self-examination and therapy led me quite naturally to undergraduate and graduate degrees in psychology and counseling. Part of my work is in private practice, counseling other men who are seeking to understand and change unwanted homosexual desires, or men working to strengthen their masculine identities generally. I find it immensely satisfying.

            I know from first-hand experience that CHANGE IS POSSIBLE! I never thought I would get married. I never thought I could find a woman I would be attracted to and could spend the rest of my life with. I never thought I would be freed from compulsive homosexual thoughts and feelings. I never thought I could step out on a sports field with heterosexual men and feel okay about myself.

            Now I’m happily married with three terrific kids. I love my wife and my new orientation. Together, Kae and I have even written a book based in part on our experiences, called Homosexuality: Symptoms & Free Agency. That was a challenging but very bonding experience for us as a couple. I enjoy softball and basketball as hobbies that help me stay in shape and enjoy healthy physical activity with other men.

            it was their confidence in themselves as men that was broken

            When I’ve read stories or seen TV reports from men who say they tried to change but were not able to, I am struck that according to their own accounts they just didn’t seem to have any authentic “healing experiences” that could really be expected to effect deep internal change. They talk about learning to cross their legs correctly, pray and read scriptures. They talk about attempts at spiritual healing when they weren’t spiritually broken to begin with; it was their confidence in themselves as men that was broken. It was their fear of heterosexual men that needs to be healed. CHANGE IS INDEED POSSIBLE for those who are willing to do the tough internal reconstruction on their emotional (not sexual or spiritual, usually) issues. I believe there are indeed thousands of us who have quietly done it.

            Recovery has been more of a journey for me than an end result. It is clear that homosexuality was only the symptom of other underlying problems. As I resolved these other issues, I experienced a natural shift from homosexuality to heterosexuality. I was encouraged by men I met along the way who had gone before and showed me that it could be done. These men had implemented changes in their own lives that resulted in a shift of their sexual orientation. These men were standing on solid ground. Now I am too.

            Floyd and Kae Godfrey’s book, Homosexuality: Symptoms & Free Agency, is available online or by calling Cedar Fort Publishing at (800)759-2665.

            – Floyd Godfrey, 2000

  • LeftleaningTx

    Clearly God has spoken on the issue and resoundingly curbed his childrens bigoted behavior both legally and now socially as well.
    It is not to late to repent for the sin of judging your fellow man,
    God’s ear is always open for forgiveness, but you MUST ask for it.

    • Jim Deferio

      Why are YOU judging? Hypocrite much?
      Jesus said to “judge with righteous judgment” (John 7:24) and to “judge what is right” (Luke 12:57). He also made it clear in Matthew 7:1-5 that when you judge you much not judge as a hypocrite – one who has a beam in his own eye (i.e. one who is sinning themselves) and looking at the sins of another. That is hypocrisy and that is what YOU are guilty of.

      Also, Jesus gave the definition of marriage as One Man + One woman in Matthew 19:4-6 and Mark 10:6-9 by quoting from Genesis 2:24. Marriage cannot possibly be anything other than this. The Old Testament kings David and solomon were in direct violation of Deuteronomy 17:17.

      • LeftleaningTx

        Interesting, yet we know judgements are subjective so who’s supposed to be the judge, YOU ? LOL
        You are free to selectively follow your stone age cult text but you’ll have to excuse the rest of us that have no interest in such an archaic notions.
        FYI, The most common reference to marriage in the bible was polygamy
        i would think that the most appropriate cult text to follow would be “judge not lest ye be judged” most certainly the most objective place to sit.

        • Jim Deferio

          You claim, “The most common reference to marriage in the bible was polygamy.” You need to read Genesis 2:24, Matthew 19:4-6 and Mark 10:6-9. Jesus said it was so from the beginning: One Man + One Woman.

          The Bible is mostly an historical narrative that reports matter-of-factly without moral commentary. However, you obviously have not read the Bible all the way through because your statement above is made in complete ignorance. I think you are just repeating something you’ve heard.

          • LeftleaningTx

            I’ll have you know that I attended Catholic school for many years which included an hour of day of bible study. I am well versed in both the new and old testament and probably have a greater understanding technically of the bible than you.
            That’s for starters.

            “The Bible is mostly an historical narrative that reports matter-of-factly without moral commentary”

            This is debate even among you cult worshippers
            Some of you believe that it is the actual word of God and some believe as you that it is just a narrative.
            It “factuality” is suspect since much of it was written down over a hundred years after it supposedly happened, given that most normal people would find it ‘factualness” very very suspect.
            i understand that you cult worshipers are selective about the cult text of the bible you use to judge others by and how you exempt yourselves from the laws of the bible that you violate but if i’m not mistaken (and i’m not) the bible is comprised of TWO books, both the new and old Testament. The most common use of the term marriage in the Bible (the old testament) IS polagram, that is a fact. I have yet to this day see ANY christian denounce the old testament and in fact refer to it frequently for whatever it is that they need from it specifically, and so my statement stands that the most common reference of marriage in the bible is polygamy and you are nothing more than a hypocrite by refusing to acknowledge that.
            But then there nothing really new about a christian being a hypocrite is there ?

            That pretty much goes hand in hand with being Christian after all.

          • Jim Deferio

            Roman Catholicism? That’s perhaps a major part of your problem. Roman Catholicism is indeed cultic and it is NOT true Christianity. True Christianity is not religion, per se, as keeping certain days “holy”, doing various rituals, praying in a certain way, etc. etc. So, Christianity is not Protestantism, Eastern Orthodoxy, or Roman Catholicism, it is NOT religion but relationship. A personal spiritual relationship with God the Father and the risen Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus resurrection is an historical fact.

            What we call the “Bible” is composed of 66 books and letters. It is self-testifying in the historical sense that the books and letters written by the 40 or more authors were written independently of each other over at least a 1,400 year period and they report events and names and themes that confirm the other books. THERE IS NOTHING LIKE THE BIBLE IN ALL OF MAN’S EXISTENCE.

            I have read the most unholy Qur’an in its entirety and the Bhagavad Gita and its Purports in its entirety as well as the Book of Mormon and other works and the Bible is very unique, self-testifying and self-affirming and there are literally THOUSANDS of archaeological finds and also corroborating historical accounts that confirm the veracity of the Bible.

            I never said that the Bible was merely a narrative. However, the parts of the Bible that are they are true historical narratives. Learn the difference between a fictitious novel and an historical narrative.

            I used to be an atheist. I consider myself quite intelligent and I have two science degrees and I have accumulated about 230 semester hours of college coursework (undergraduate and graduate) but like you I used to be very dumb concerning the Bible. I actually purposely destroyed a Bible when I was an atheist, I thought it was funny to blow it up.

            However, I began to wonder about “truth”. WHAT is truth? Can anyone even know if something is true or not. Maybe all is an illusion. Maybe our sensory perceptions (smell, taste, sight, hearing, touch) and our consciousness of our sensory perceptions are all messed up and really are not reliable truth detectors.

            After spending many hours in a library searching for answers I gradually came to see the Bible as a book that has stood the test of time and has been proven true. As a believer in evolutionism I also gradually came to see that evidence was sorely lacking for the religion of evolutionism (which is no doubt a cult).

            There is solid evidence for the New Testament (a collection of 27 books and letters) that go back to the first century and concerning the life of Jesus we not only have the independent eye-witness testimony from Matthew, Mark, John, Paul, Luke, James, Jude, and Peter, we have early testimony from hostile witnesses (several Jewish, and several Romans).

            I have personally seen some of the Dead Sea Scrolls on display at the Franklin Institute in Philadelphia and they clearly provide confirmation that the prophecies concerning Jesus Christ and the nation of Israel were written BC. I saw the Deuteronomy manuscript dated to 250 BC. There is also the Isaiah scroll of the whole book of Isaiah which was dated using radio carbon 14 dating to as old as 310 BC and as old as 125-100 BC using paleographic dating.

            NO DOCUMENT HAS AS MUCH MANUSCRIPT EVIDENCE FOR IT AS THE NEW TESTAMENT. That’s the fact jack.

            I don’t need any stinking psychological crutch, I go by evidence and facts. I know what truth is while you can’t even get some simple things right.

            Are you a member of the religious cult of homosexualism?

          • LeftleaningTx

            Jim,

            Lets begin with a most basic understand as to further our conversation.
            First of all, the meaning of the word “Cult”

            Given that today a “cult” is what a larger or older religion calls a newer or smaller religion the word “cult” actually has a specific definition, which follows:

            cult kəlt/ noun
            a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.

            So in actuality ALL religions are “cults” that practice “cult worship” in one form or another, including yours.

            I won’t bore you with the specific of my education but what I will tell you, which i think is more notable, is that my IQ has tested repeatedly over 160. I will further say that some of the smartest people that i’ve ever met had little education and some of the most educated people i’ve ever met were stupid beyond belief. That said, I will digress into your ponts.

            “However, the parts of the Bible that are they are true historical narratives.”

            Given that men of that era had little or no education and most did not read or write leaving the “historical” part as stories that were told to each other and handed down by word of mouth generation after generation, many actually written down over a hundred years after the supposedly occurred. Given that to use the word “historical” would be wholly inaccurate term to use. Hand me down eye witness accounts from over 2000 years would also be highly suspect and would hardly account for “solid evidence” as we know that even eye witness accounts of several days ago can be deeply flawed and i’m surprised that you’d make such a weak argument, again, given that you are an intelligent man.

            While no doubt the cult text called the Bible is one of the most studied writings in history this study does not, in and of itself, give it any validity and i’m surprised an intelligent man as yourself would conflate the two.

            Cult worship also has an enormous amount of variations in the beliefs as you have demonstrated.
            Also I’d like to thank our for sharing with me the lengthy indoctrination into your cult and how that indoctrination has allowed you to come up with your very own interpretation that is correct above all others!! I would even call that amazing except that all of the cults with the myriad of sects all pretty much come to the same conclusion “my way is the correct and only way” which you have consistently demonstrated as well.
            In the end what i find the most surprising is that an intelligent man like yourself can suspend all of his critical thinking skills as to indoctrinate yourself into a mystical cult that believes that because of the age of a text it has validity and that you have come to convince yourself that hand me down stories are “evidence and fact”
            FASCINATING to say the least

            Insofar as homosexuality, i can say that i am quite the expert give that i am homosexual and can tell you with first hand knowledge and with facts many aspects of it that you are probably not aware of (aside from the carnality) I’d be happy to explore that with but somehow as a cult worshiper I believe that you really have more interest in supporting fictional stories as opposed to learning about what make other people tick.
            Jim, I have to say it’s interesting talking to you because generally talking to a cult worshiper i’m having to reduce myself to talk to someone with an IQ in the teens which bores me to not end. While no doubt you are not as intelligent as i am at least your not as boring although you seem to use many of the same argument that they do.

  • LeftleaningTx

    It has been for hundreds of years, and continues to be, the providence of government to bestow the legal vestige of a “business” upon individuals. No person(s) has the right to confer the legal status of a business upon themselves; only government and its associated laws can establish a business entity. When an individual or a group of individuals solicit government to obtain government’s permission to operate a business, apply for a business license, they agree to operate the business in accordance with the laws of government. Thus individuals preclude themselves from exerting individual right because they have consented to the laws of government.

  • ASH: Samuel Walter

    What utter bullshit. Of course those poor, persecuted Christians would conflate support for marriage equality with opposition to traditional marriage.

  • Guest

    Schultz said he supports same-sex marriage and if you have a problem with that, sell your shares, as Starbucks isn’t changing their stance. There are lots of people that aren’t Christians that are against same-sex marriage.

    Good job on the hyperbole.

    • James Whistler

      Anonymous Guest says, “There are lots of people that aren’t Christians that are against same-sex marriage.”

      I suppose you’re thinking of fundamentalist Muslims and Jews?

  • David

    You discriminate against gays and lesbians. You throw out your children like trash if they are gay. Your gay children commit suicide at six times the rate of straight children due to how you treat them. And this is why Christianity in the United States is dying out. Because y’all are widely seen as hateful. Americans just don’t like mean, hateful people.
    http://www.gallup.com/poll/1690/religion.aspx

  • Mutti Kephara

    I wholeheartedly support Starbucks and any other company that voices opposition to the bigoted, hateful and very un-Christ-like position on marriage equality that is espoused by some who presume to speak for God..

  • Eugene Keeping

    What a horrible twist on words.

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  • Elaine Lawless

    It’s simple. Starbucks has catered/supported the same-sex-marriage theory; the Co made their choice and Christians make theirs to dump Starbucks Shares and to drink coffee from somewhere else. To each his own.

  • Moms

    Nothing Christian ab