Former Lesbian Turned Christian: ‘We’ve Made God Little if We Believe He Cannot Change People’

Perry IIST. LOUIS, Mo. — A former lesbian turned Christian is coming out about her conversion from living as a homosexual, and is testifying about the power of God to change a life.

Jackie Hill Perry, 25, is a spoken word poet, and is expecting her first child, a girl, next month along with her husband, poet Preston Perry.

“I think we’ve made God very little if we believe that He cannot change people,” Perry declared on Wade-O Radio last year. “If He can make a moon, stars and a galaxy that we have yet to fully comprehend, how can He not simply change my desires?”

Perry has become increasingly outspoken about her testimony, as she was once in romantic relationships with other women. The poet says that she was sexually abused at age five, and as a result, developed gender confusion throughout her youth, not knowing if she wanted to identify as a man or a woman. However, she hid her urges as her family attended a church that had biblical beliefs about morality.

In her late teen years, Perry began experimenting with homosexuality, and became sexually active with a girl. She continued in this lifestyle, moving on to a second girlfriend, who encouraged her to dress more masculine. Perry also frequenting “gay” clubs and attending homosexual pride events.

But in 2008, at age 19, she became convicted about her behavior, and she knew that she was heading down the wrong path. Perry said that God spoke to her one day as she lay in bed, the day after she had engaged in sexual activity with her girlfriend.

“The girl who you’re with will be the death of you,” she recalled Him saying. “At that time, my eyes were opened to that it wasn’t just homosexuality that would be the death of me. It was my complete and entire lifestyle. It’s not just, ‘You’re gay. You’re [also] lustful, you’re prideful, you’re a thief, you’re rebellious, you’re a masturbator and you’re a porn addict.’ I saw all of these things that deserved Hell and I really believed and saw that God would be just in sending me there.”

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“The Scriptures came alive to me,” Perry told the Christian Examiner. “They said for the wages of sin is death, and I perceived it as real. But [Scripture] also said those who repent and believe will inherit eternal life. And I thought, ‘Ok God, I trust you. I believe You.'”

She knew she had to walk away from her girlfriend and stop giving into whatever her flesh wanted. Perry then sat down and penned a poem called “My Life as a Stud.”

“Instead of me dying to myself, I was willing to die for myself,” she wrote. “There was no fairy whispering in my ear/Only me and the devil telling me what I wanted to hear.”

“The more my will to sin would grow, I could see it in my face …. I could see Him stretched out on the wood…/Being the disgrace for the sin I was committing in His face,” Perry continued. “Seeing Him take on the wrath of the Father on the wood in my place/I still spat in His face.”

Perry has performed the song at numerous outlets nationwide, and has sometimes faced resistance for her stance. Her video performance of the poem, first performed live in 2010, now has over 400,00 views.

“No, my friend, you were not born gay,” she declares. “You were born into sin and shaped in iniquity/When Eve ate that fruit, we were cursed to do anything/ We were open for murder, we were destined to lose/We were given free will/You chose to choose/You chose to defy God’s rules ’cause inside of you, you wanted to be like Him and make them.”

Perry has since gone on to sign with Humble Beast Records, where she released her debut album “The Art of Joy” this month, which is also available for free online. Earlier this year, she married fellow poet Preston Perry. But she said that marriage isn’t the panacea—Christ is.

“That’s so not true,” Perry said. “What’s true is that when you’ve been united with Christ by faith, when you know Him and have been made righteous in His sight, that is your goal. Working from that, it’s going to be to live a life that is pleasing to Him whether through marriage or singleness.”

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  • Demopublicrat

    I can hear it now, “She really wasn’t gay, she just thought she was”.

  • Neiman

    God bless her in her walk with Jesus.

    Jesus can change lives, He can change desires, but first it demands we see our sins as being sins, a sincere repentance and a turning to Jesus as our Savior.Then and only then, we are born again of His Spirit and as this lovely (inner beauty) said, she had a new life and in her loving gratitude to God began turning her back on sin, which only is true repentance.

    She can do more to reach Lesbians and homosexuals than straight Christians, because she knows what that lifestyle is all about and can talk their language, by the Spirit in her, right to their souls. May God use her mightily in reaching gays for Christ, may He give her His Strength for her journey and ministry.

    • Squirrelthief45

      “Their” language? They speak human language…

  • Carol Cantell Moorby

    To all the homosexuals who have cursed me, condemned me and called me a liar, THIS IS FOR YOU!!!!!!!You can get out of it, you were NOT born that way……You chose it! it is an unclean demon spirit that attaches itself to unsuspecting and ignorant people .it usually attaches to those involved in a cult, the occult or a false religion! That’s how it comes in. it also can come in through reading or watching things that involve homosexuality. You chose it…you can choose to come out of it…. , Choose wisely! Get free of the demon spirit.

    • BeWhoYouAre

      That is a damned lie. Even Exodus International closed their doors admitting they were frauds and apologizing to everyone.

    • Brittany Imler

      You’re a fucking psycho. This is true evil. YOU are true evil. And one day, you’ll realize you’ve been a sinful pig and God will not forgive YOU for your comments to people who ARE born this way.

    • SFBruce

      Whether one believes homosexuality is moral or not, sexual orientation is not a choice. Whether a person is gay, straight or bi, it simply isn’t chosen. We can choose to be a Baptist or a Methodist or an Episcopalian, or nothing, but we don’t choose our sexual orientation. Furthermore, the current scientific consensus is that homosexual behavior isn’t a sickness, but part of the normal range of human behavior.
      That said, I have no particular quarrel with Ms. Perry. She has every right to live her life as her conscience dictates; a right all Americans have, including LGBT people.

      • Neiman

        There exists no objective proof that homosexuality is genetic, otherwise it would be 100%, everyone having that alleged gene would be gay and they are not. Further, even if one could be isolated and it was 100%, then we would have to determine cause versus effect. Did you further know that some scientists are saying child molestation is genetic as well? In the psychiatric profession many are now leaning towards they idea that child molestation is not deviant, but normal. Once you open that door and say sexual deviance in any form is acceptable, normal, you cannot close it to every other kind of sexual deviancy.

        Despite the idea that so many godless people want to say homosexuality is not a choice, their sexual conduct is a choice, that is, their decision to act out on their desires. We expect and encourage drug addicts, alcoholics, rapists, child molesters and others with deviant desires to restrain those destructive impulses, but only gays get a pass, because they wield great power through Democrats that want their money and votes.

        Scientific consensus was always in the path of homosexuality being deviant sexual conduct, but Left Wing political correctness during and after the sexual revolution of the Sixties took over, cowardly scientists would not dare speak against homosexuality or any longer call it a psychiatric disorder or they would lose their careers.

        • Brittany Imler

          Oh. My. God. I cannot believe you just compared being gay to being a rapist. What about your desire to be with a man or woman? That’s okay because someone told you THAT desire was fine. How DARE you say something so hateful. You will, without a doubt, be burning in hell for eternity. I put you in the category of a rapist before I’d put a gay person. A gay person would NEVER say something like this to a group of people they didn’t know. They are not the evil. YOU and your cult of a church are.

          • Neiman

            I compared them only in that in all these other destructive, uncontrollable impulses I listed, we expect them to deny those lusts, while in the name of political correctness, we say it to all except homosexuals.

            If my desire to be with a woman, if she is not my wife and sexual intercourse is not confined to the marriage bed, which God declared to only be between a man and a woman, it would be sin and in need of sincere repentance before God. But, the homosexual not believing their sexual conduct is a sin, will not repent.

            I know you are angry and I regret that you are angry, but that is what happens when anyone stands on God’s Word and opposes sin, people like yourself will get angry and even hate them. They hated Jesus and they murdered Him because He called all men to repentance and new life in Him. They hated and killed John the Baptist, most of the Apostles and myriads of martyrs to the faith. The people of this world are not willing to give up their many lusts and will always feel angry when those lusts are exposed.

            Did you know that Jesus said no one is good, no not one, that all are unrighteous, gone out of their way to sin. You and I and everyone are sinners, but only facing that absolute fact, repenting and accepting Salvation in Christ will save us.

          • YouNoWho

            Here’s your disgusting problem, Neiman. You are not content to keep your Jesus to yourself and simply obey the dictates of the one religion (out of thousands) that you have chosen to adopt. Nope, you have to declare your religious superstitions to the world, a if everyone should listen, as if everyone believes, like you, in the existence of a “sacred ghost” that supposedly informs on everybody’s minds, through mental impressions, that two people who express their love differently than you do, are “sinners.”

            You aren’t content to limit *yourself* to your definition of “sin,” you have to impose it on everybody else. Look, whatever your religion, there are millions or billions of others who believe your god to be just as false as you imagine theirs to be.

            Let’s make one thing clear (and I can prove it): It is not “God’s word” that causes you to keep gays down and second class, it is your own prejudices. The proof: Your Bible strongly supports slavery throughout, from cover to cover, and never once so much as hints it could be a bad thing. Your God, with his own mouth, told people where to buy their slaves and said they could own them as their “property” “forever” and pass them down to their heirs. Just as emphatically, it makes women second class and subservient to men. My point is this: You simply IGNORE those and countless other things in your Bible simply because the are inconvenient, don’t make sense or are just embarrassingly goofy. Somehow, the Bible poses no problem for you on those things. You easily just ignore those admonitions OR your make up some pretty bizarre rationale to get around them. Therefore….

            If you personally WANTED to love and accept gays with dignity, fairness and equality, then the Bible would pose no more of a problem for you than it poses a problem for you to hate slavery and treat women as equals. Case closed.

            prejudice |ˈprejədəs| noun1 preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience

          • Neiman

            I don’t have a problem!

            Christians are called to bring the Gospel to the whole world and that Gospel must include opposing sin which causes man to lose Heaven and most important telling the world that in Jesus, God has made a way by a free gift to save everyone that may apply and when they are in bondage to sinful lusts, wherein He will heal them. If we truly believe in God, we have no choice and quite frankly, love for the lost compels us to share whether the world wants it or not and mostly they do not.

            Like most unbelievers, you read the Bible to try and disprove God, even though you know nothing about God’s Word. Slavery as practiced in Biblical times was much different than now and I suggest this link to learn more. http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html I might also add that while slavery was practiced by Christians in America, it was other Christians that fought and died to bring it to an end.

            I ignore nothing in the bible and none are inconvenient or embarrassing to me.

            I don’t want to accept homosexuals as anything other than sinners and precious lost souls loved by God. Why? Because God condemns it as immoral and idolatrous and unrepented a barrier to their salvation.

          • YouNoWho

            You say “… even though you know nothing about God’s Word.” WHAT? You talkin’ to ME??? Well guess what. Unless you have had more than 17 years of formal Bible training, then you are in no place to imagine I know “nothing” about the subject my degree and graduate studies are in! I was a Christian minister. See the folly in your false assumptions?

            As for the rest of what you say, it only shows YOUR ignorance of the Bible. Just one example: of COURSE you are going to say biblical slavery wasn’t really slavery. I mean, you have to say *something* in making excuses for your god, so I guess that is as good as anything. Problem is, it’s just bull. You are the one who is ignorant on this and a whole army of issues. You seem to know absolutely nothing other than what your church publishes and preaches. I have no respect for willful ignorance.

            You ignore nothing in the Bible? Bull again. I could make a list a mile long. You embarrass yourself not to know that. I suppose you are also unaware of the 300+ contradictions in your Bible. (Which creation story is the truth? They can’t both be the truth, because they are contradictory.) But I won’t waste my time. Not until you care to listen.

          • Neiman

            Most people having formal Bible training are atheists, their primary goal is disproving and attacking the Bible. God tells us that no matter how much training, no matter how much you think you know, spiritual truth can only be spiritually discerned and it is obvious you have not His Spirit.

            I have been studying the Bible for roughly six decades, a preachers kid, a minister, while the difference is that I am actually a Christian and you are obviously not.

            The rest of your words are empty, subjective, prejudiced against God, absent the Holy Spirit and you are clearly speaking on behalf of your father who was a liar from the beginning and the truth was not in him. You will answer to God for your lies against Him and for the souls you are leading away from His Salvation.

          • Lisa Middleton

            Great job Neiman!

          • Kozyavin

            No.

          • Kozyavin

            Flawed. Attacking the person, not the argument.

            Try again.

          • Neiman

            When you point your finger at me accusing me of no arguments, look carefully three are pointing back at you. Your last three posts to me were emotionally driven and a waste of time and energy.

            Step back from your bong and take a nap, then try again.

          • James Grimes

            Don’t listen to the hater. Don’t take him seriously. He is insignificant on this forum. Keep up the great job of defending the faith. Blessings.

          • Riley Grant

            You’re using an imaginary man in the sky as your justification of ignorance. “You’re wrong and I’m right because an old book tells me so and the book says it’s not a lie so it must be right!” What’s your intelligence level? I’d be hard pressed to believe you have even a reasonable IQ lol.

          • Pamela Hankins

            Your study of the Bible is not enough…knowing the Author of the Bible is what matters. I do not write this solely for you, but for all those reading, considering themselves to be Bible literate in the same way you do. The Scripture interprets itself, and it says of itself 1 Corinthians 2:14, “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned”. The Saducees and the Pharisees were not only students of the Scripture, they were the religious elites of their day. Yet, they did not, and could not discern the Lord, when He spoke to them face to face, and neither can you. KNOWING Him is the key. And I am sure that you have no idea what that means, because I am not talking about ‘faith’ in something you cannot know, but I am talking about knowing the One who calls you to Himself. Of hearing His voice and walking daily with Him. Of growing in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. Of seeing the majesty of His Presence. I cannot describe Him to you any more than I could describe the glory of the stars, or the sunset to someone who cannot see. I wasn’t always so sure, but He Himself, convinced me of His love and of His enduring involvement in my life, I had no choice but to acknowledge Him. So many, even those in the pulpit, do not know Him, and substitute their book knowledge for a relationship and then thinking that’s all there is to it, preach it to others. Nope, there’s more…much, much more!

          • YouNoWho

            Such a tired old refrain. Disagree with a Christian and you’ll quickly be told that you didn’t “really” know Christ. You knew the scripture but you just didn’t really “know” Christ or have that “relationship” with him. How disingenuous. How arrogant. And how nervy to suggest that someone who devoted 17 years of his life to formal biblical studies might not ever at some point have been sincere, devout and in relationship with Jesus. Disingenuous and arrogant. But Christians just can’t stand it when a former believer comes to a realization that their religion is no different from all the many other religions that the Christian rejects in a heartbeat. And many, like Pamela, will imagine that platitudes and cryptic religious phrases are actually saying something. (“KNOWING Him is the key!”)

            Gotta love the part where she says the scripture interprets itself. Oh really? Is that why there are 41,000 different Christian sects and denominations that cannot agree even among themselves how to interpret it?

            Clearly religion thrives outside the bounds of reality, which is why so many of us, even if we grew up immersed in it from birth and spent many years of our lives devoutly devoted to it, eventually come to understand how NOT different it is from all those other similar religions out of which Christianity sprang,

          • Neiman

            You were never a believer, you may have thought you were, but if you ever tasted the Truth and turned away, you were never one of His children. I hope and pray you turn back and are born again before it is too late.

            There are not thousands of Christian denominations even if they call themselves Christian, there is only one, it is the body of Christ, it is the only true Church. It is made of of innumerable souls having been converted to Christ from idols, have been born again of His Spirit and they are one in Spirit and are in perfect harmony on the esentials of the faith, albeit scattered throughout many denominations.

          • Pamela Hankins

            It does seem arrogant doesn’t it? Is it arrogance when an expert in any field tells you the facts? Some facts, agreed, are subjective, some, are not. For instance a mathematician should be able to explain math in a way that makes it easy to understand, they have authority in the subject because of their study and lifetime devotion. Yet, some use that authority to flaunt their ‘intelligence’ to the world by writing a book that does just the opposite and makes the subject more difficult. The Pharisees and Sadducees did just that. The warning came from the Lord Himself to “beware the leaven” (doctrine) of these groups. Now, lo and behold, we see the reason for the warning. We have many such groups, all divided and disagreeing on Scripture. Why? Because instead of doing the research, rightly dividing the Word of Truth, their schooling is not the Scripture, per se, but of one of these many doctrines. This was bound to happen. The Lord defines the Kingdom of God as a grain of mustard seed that develops into a huge tree, having the birds of the air nesting in its branches. Also, it is described as a leaven hid in three measures of meal until all was leavened. Both the birds of the air and the leaven are symbolic of evil. Even as a rocket makes its way say, to the moon, it has to be in constant communication with NASA, to check back continually in order to stay on course. Otherwise it will miss the mark. So, when many follow blind leaders of the blind, it should not surprise us that they don’t know where they are going. The Lord taught His disciples that they would not need anyone to teach them, but that the Holy Spirit would lead us and guide us into all truth, that if in anything we be otherwise minded He would reveal it to us. Yet, most, refuse to trust Him in this. Also, it is not a matter of so much learning, but in so much following Him, and listening. That is also why Paul warns not to let a novice be in a leadership capacity in the church. But, we consider Bible school students as knowledgeable. I could have gone that way, but as I have followed the Lord, asked Him my questions, and kept my mouth shut, (I was invited to make sound tracks…to “sing for the Lord” etc…) He told me to wait on Him. This I have done for more than forty years. And only now, do I see. There is a relationship that takes years, and a maturity that takes years, and understanding that is needed! Just like in anything else, you don’t graduate from high school or even college and become a master other than perhaps in name. It takes experience you can not get any other way. I hope this helps someone understand what this Way entails. It is not what you ‘put on’, it is what you become in Christ as you grow up in Him, not trusting your own understanding but acknowledging Him in all your ways, as He empowers, clarifies, and explains. That is why “…strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil”, (Hebrews 5:14).

          • YouNoWho

            I don’t doubt your sincerity. But, given the fact that your God promises to bring understanding to his followers, your position amounts to one of the following. 1. Either there are no devout, honest, real Christians in those other 40,999 Christian sects and denominations, just in yours—so either God refuses to enlighten them or he has, but they, being fake Christians, fail to follow it.

            2. Or, if there even is a God, he hasn’t seen fit to keep his promise of understanding at all.

            Meanwhile, all Christians will go about assuming that THEIR interpretation, and only theirs, is the correct one among many.

            I don’t mean to go on arguing with you, you seem to be a very nice, sincere person. I just wish when it comes to homosexuality, people who do not have that particular sexual orientation would tread lightly and leave it between that person and God, instead of pontificating as if they and only they have the correct interpretation.

            Remember, we’re not talking about murderers, liars and child molesters here, we are talking people whose only “crime,” or “sin” as you would call it, is to LOVE another person the “wrong” way.

            I can only despise, not worship like a god, any supernatural being that found more pleasure in gay people living lonely, loveless lives than in them living joyful, happy lives, sharing love and relationship with another human being, one of God’s greatest gifts to humankind, in the manner natural for them.

            (Do you also want disabled people to give up their wheelchairs until the resurrection when God fixes every result of sin in the world? Why not be consistent?)

            Fortunately, millions of devout Christians, and even entire denominations, have a very different and most reasonable interpretation of that tiny handful of supposedly anti-gay texts. And I’d imagine they consider themselves to have the truth, just as you do.

            If you would come on here and carefully recite the rationale and explanations and reasoning of THOSE Christians, so that I could see that you are aware of, and have considered the various possible interpretations, then I would highly respect you, whether you came to the same conclusion or not. But most Christians “cherish” their beliefs (how odd!) and would bend reality in their own minds before adjusting their beliefs to reality as needed. I don’t cherish my understanding of things, I constantly subject my understanding to scrutiny, criticism, evidence, re-evaluation and logic. And I crave new information. Too bad most Christians prefer to latch onto a notion and treat it like the final word, never to be challenged or reexamined.

            It is not the Bible that makes people want to keep gays down and second class citizens with fewer rights, no equality. It is their own personal prejudices. Then the Bible is used to support them. We know this is true, because if a Christian really WANTED to treat gays with respect and equality, the Bible would pose no more problem for them than it does for them to ignore the Bible’s hearty endorsement of slavery, it’s far-more-clear support for the subservience of women, its requirement not to eat shellfish or wear blended fabrics, etc., etc., ETC.! The Bible isn’t the problem here, it’s people’s hearts and their prejudices.

            prejudice |ˈprejədəs| noun1 preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience

          • Scott S.

            “Remember, we’re not talking about murderers, liars and child molesters
            here, we are talking people whose only “crime,” or “sin” as you would
            call it, is to LOVE another person the “wrong” way.”

            1. It’s the Bible itself, in every interpretation available (other than the lgbt translations) that states homosexuality is wrong. And because homosexuality is a deviant sexual behavior, it only stands to reason that they are just as capable of raping and molesting children. Pedophilia is and equal-opportunity evil.

            2. The author of Love, God, himself condems the homosexual version of “love” because it’s not a true love. You can’t have Love apart from the creator…it’s not possible. The Bible makes this clear as well. No additional education necessary.

          • YouNoWho

            Do your Bible thing in your Bible class and in your church. Quoting the bronze age religious text of one of many religions proves nothing to me or anyone else outside your particular religious club. And by the way, you are dead wrong in claiming the Bible says anything at all about homosexuality, much less condemn it.

            Homosexual acts and “homosexuality” are two different things. Homosexual ACTS can be performed by anyone, straight or gay. The Bronze-Age men who wrote the Bible had no concept of a sexual orientation toward the same gender. That did not come into people’s awareness until about 200 years ago. Follow me here….

            The Bible is concerned about *perversion.* In Bible times, everyone was thought to be the same (we call it heterosexual today). Anyone caught committing a sexual act with a person of the same gender was thought to be a straight person (in today’s terminology) dabbling over the line in hedonistic perversion. That is what the Bible condemns. You can even see it in one of the texts that says like “doing it with men as you do with women.” That’s not “homosexuality,” that’s a perversion of one’s natural sexual orientation, straight people crossing the line in a hedonistic manner. A perversion of what is natural for them.

            Nowhere in the entire Bible is homosexuality mentioned or talked about. No writer said, Look, we’re not just talking about perversion, we’re also talking about people whose natural, innate orientation toward sex is for the same gender. There is nothing whatsoever in these texts that imply or hint that they’re talking about people in love who are expressing their love sexually in a loving manner that is natural for them.

            Now if you want to be a tool, you can say, “Well, it doesn’t come right out and say it’s okay to be gay,” as if that means it is therefore wicked and sinful to love another human the “wrong” way. That would be a very dumb and disingenuous thing to say. What you SHOULD say is this: “Wow, I see what you mean. That is one way of seeing these texts! After all, I always wondered why God would arbitrarily put gays down and not want them to love anyone. It just doesn’t seem right that God would be more pleased for gays to be alone and lonely their entire lives. Seems he’d be more pleased to have them enjoy a full and happy life filled with love, in the manner natural for them, just like everybody else.”

            Believe anything you want. Who cares? But do NOT lie and claim the Bible says anything at all about “homosexuality.” It does not. It talks about some instances of homosexual ACTS which could be performed by anyone. The Bible knew nothing at all about a natural inclination toward the same gender, so it could not have addressed it.

          • Mujtahidul Haque

            Do you seriously believe gays have only existed for 200 years? You’ve never heard of Greece or Rome? Both civilizations were much more tolerant of homosexuals than any modern western country.

          • YouNoWho

            That is not what I said at all.

            I would imagine the percentage in any society at any time probably hasn’t varied much.

            Please re-read what I did say. I made a distinction between a homosexual ACT, which can be performed by anyone, straight or gay, and homosexuality, which is an innate orientation toward the same gender. Nobody knows exactly what causes one’s sexual orientation, whether that orientation is straight, gay, bisexual.

            What came into existence a little over 200 years ago was not homosexuals, but an AWARENESS of what homosexuality IS. Until then, it was generally (mis)understood that that all men had a “straight” orientation. So if they say a man engaging in same-sex activity, they did not think, “Oh, there’s a gay guy,” they thought, “Oh, there’s a guy (presumed straight) having sex with another guy.”

            I think you might misunderstand what was going on with so much prevalence in Greece and Rome, especially Greece. The place was not particularly teaming with homosexuals, but there was lot of sex going on between men and younger men or even boys as a cultural thing. (See the documentary “The Real Olympics.”) The older ones would have sex with the younger ones, until they were ready for marriage. That didn’t mean they were gay. They were no more gay than straight men in prison who have sex with other guys until they get out. That doesn’t make them gay. They did not change into homosexuals while in there, and then change back to straights when they came out. They were always straight. Like I say, anyone can engage in a homosexual act.

            Thus in biblical times, no one thought two men having sex were “gay” or “homosexual,” they were just PEOPLE, people presumably just like themselves, attracted to the opposite sex as a natural orientation, but fooling around with same-sex ACTIVITY just like straight men in prison or straight men and adolescents in Greece having sex not because they were gay but because it was the cultural thing to do before marriage.

            So it is easy to see how the Bible is saying not to do that. If you are straight, don’t cross the line. It is a perversion of your natural sexuality. Don’t do with men what you do with women. Having same sex activity outside your natural inclination is a perversion of what is normal for you.

            At that time, nobody realized that for a small minority of people, there IS an innate sexual orientation that is toward the same gender. There actually are some people for whom the same-gender is natural for them. THAT is what wasn’t generally understood until a little over 200 years ago.

            Of course people who were actually gay, back then, knew they were attracted to men, not women, but i’m guessing it would never cross their minds not to marry and have kids in those cultures. Today in the USA we also saw a lot of gay guys marrying woman and having kids due to social pressures. It doesn’t happen as much today, with public awareness greatly enlightened.

            To recap: Back then, you’d be laughed at, if you suggested a couple of guys having sex actually loved each other or were attracted to each other in the same way most men are attracted to the opposite sex. But today, and for a little more than 200 years, we know it is a reality. We understand it now.

            Fundamentalists insist that that tiny handful of texts, like the one that says “don’t sleep with men as you sleep with women” is talking about gay people, and they tell gay people that God is somehow more pleased when gay people commit to a life of loneliness and being alone without ever knowing the joy and happiness of having someone to love, than for them to be happy and fulfilled, loving another person in the manner natural for them.

            Many OTHER Christians and even denominations take the more logical interpretation. They say those texts obviously refer to people perverting their natural sexual inclination. Since it wasn’t even understood back then that there even existed a same-gender orientation, it was assumed all persons engaging in same-sex activity were like the guys in prison or the Greeks who *culturally* engaged in sex outside their natural orientation. These Cristian denominations say the text couldn’t possibly be talking about something that was unknown. And this is why they say the Bible doesn’t talk about “homosexuality” at all. It talks about certain ACTS committed by people presumed to be straight.

            So Christians disagree on how to interpret those texts, just as they disagree on the interpretation of hundreds of other things. Fundamentalists insist God is telling gay people they are doomed never to love or be loved. Other Christians say God is telling straight people not to engage in same-sex activity because it is a perversion of their natural orientation. And if it’s straight people God is talking to, then what about gays, whose orientation is NATURALLY toward the same gender? Does God rally want them to live loveless lives just because it’s about SEX? (The church is historically and always obsessed over sex!) And if God really wants gays to suffer instead of having fulfilled lives, then does he also want the disabled not to have crutches and wheel chairs? Does he also want everybody with bad eyesight never to wear glasses, but just endure until the resurrection when all results of sin will be fixed?

            Christians who believe in justice and equality for gays see God in a very different light than the fundamentalists. You have a choice. You can be like the Old Testament God, mean and vindictive, or you can be like the New Testament God, loving and and interested in bringing peace and making the world better, not worse.

            To all those people on here who like to yap about how the Bible is so “clearly” this way or that on this subject, you’re just plain full of it. You lie. No matter which way YOU interpret it, there are many others who interpret it differently and for good reason. So start saying what YOU believe, and stop saying the Bible is perfectly “clear” on it, one way or the other.

            But let’s say you’re right that God is speaking to actual gay people in those 6 ambiguous texts, not to straights perverting their natural orientation. In that case, look at it this way: there are hundreds and hundreds of biblical texts telling straights how to behave, and only 6 telling gays how to behave. Apparently God felt straights needed a lot more supervision!

          • Arrie

            Please provide details of the 40999 Christian sects you so strongly hold up as it seems to determine something of Christianity as a whole. I definitely need to research this some more.

          • YouNoWho

            Simply Google “list of Christian denominations” and check out the Wikipedia article. They don’t list all 41,000, but the number they do list is enough to boggle the mind. Be sure to read footnote #3 for info re where the estimate of 41,000 comes from.

          • Arrie

            So are we talking about denominations or sects as in your original comment? You should know that there is a difference between the two, or are you just here to bash the Christian belief – no need to answer, we know already.
            41000 denominations – cool, it just tells me I have a lot of brothers and sisters in Christ, happy to say that today I have met ten brothers and sisters I have never met, man it is good to see Christ in others, I just love it.

          • ogail

            that does not help

          • ogail

            My friend, it is not a question of prejudice in this case. You bragged that you had 17 years or even plus in bible school, show me one scripture that promotes homosexuality i will show you tens of scriptures that speaks against it without interpretation. its not true that we have to interpret all scripture, some scriptures in fact are open and straight to the point. you may be a gay but you still need the truth and the truth will set you free from that bondage

          • YouNoWho

            I’m mostly successful keeping my commitment to largely avoid this time-consuming black hole of conversation, but occasionally when there’s a post ad ridiculous as yours, I’ll make a brief reply.

            You are being childish and disingenuous to characterize my bio as “bragging.” I simply revealed my background as it is relevant to this topic. It gives those who dialog with me an idea of how much I likely know about the Bible. It means they can pretty much converse with me as a relatively informed, knowledgable person. It means they don’t have to dumb it down or quote me scriptures that I’ve heard all my life.

            Further, how ridiculous to make a comment like “show me one scripture that promotes homosexuality.” If you bothered to read carefully, you know that there wasn’t even an awareness of “sexual orientation” until about 200 years ago. The Bible doesn’t promote vitamins or car seats for children, either. Grow up.

            And as if that shouldn’t embarrass you enough, let’s assume I gave you just ONE text, and you can match it with TEN that “speak against [homosexuality] without [the need for] interpretation.” Please list just ten!

            Maybe this is where more than 17 years of formal Bible study is actually useful. If you knew even the first thing about what the Bible says about same-sex acts, you would know that even when your preacher stretches it, there are only 6 that can even remotely be claimed to be speaking of it. And half of those are ambiguous to start with; some devout Christians would say all are ambiguous. And 100% of all HONEST Christians would acknowledge that in any case, there is nothing to indicate those texts are not referring to hedonistic heterosexuals (since no one imagined an innate same-gender orientation back then).

            But anyway, have at it. Forget the increments of ten, I don’t ask you to list 30 or 30 or 40 texts that are so plainly saying “homosexuality” is a sin that they require no interpretation; just show me a mere TEN. The reason you can’t, is because you are being dishonest and/or just talking nonsense off the top of your head.

            And finally, again you are either truly ignorant of simple logic OR just being disingenuous when you say “its [sic] not true that we have to interpret all scripture.” Who made that claim? Certainly not me. No one! Certainly the text that reads “Jesus wept” needs no interpretation. Now the REASON he wept may be open to interpretation. I think he was foreseeing you and your frail grasp of scripture, LOL.

            What I said was that the very existence of 41,000 different Christian sects and denominations, hundreds of which are listed in Wikipedia, proves (1) the Bible requires interpretation and (2) Christians can’t agree even among themselves on what it’s saying. That’s a simple FACT. Indisputable.

            Another fact is that millions of those other Christians are, I suspect, just as devout as you, and pray just as much as you, and get just as many mental impressions from the sacred ghost as you…. and they reasonably see no indication from scripture that God is most pleased when gay people live loveless lives, being lonely their entire lives, never to share live with another person in a fulfilling and meaningful way that is wholesome and natural FOR THEM.

            You think God wants gays executed, I suppose; or at least you think God wants them miserable. Millions of other Christians don’t buy that. They think such a notion is an insult to God’s character. That’s why they aren’t part of your denomination. Now you can go on imagining that YOU are right and they’re all wrong, or you can go and take some Bible studies from them, and then when you come back on here and state their case, so that we can see that you even so much as UNDERSTAND the other point of view, then THAT’s when I, and I’m sure many, will say to you: “Great. Good for you. Now you are aware and informed. And if you still think the Bible calls for the execution of gay people, fine. You have made an INFORMED conclusion.

            Meanwhile, I guess it would be consistent of a god who shares your attitude toward gays would also be proud of how you represent him to us reprobates. On the other hand, seems he’d want you to represent him in an attractive, loving manner, without all the silly statements and disingenuousness. Oh well, what is religion if it isn’t full of contradictions.

          • ogail

            I could have responded to this yesterday but i was too busy saving life.
            sir, I was almost tempted to ask your age group however i knew you
            would take it as an insult so i had to avoid it. looking at “17 years in
            bible school”, I believe you are above that something that i am yet to
            see the reflection in your reasoning.

            referring to your
            expression as bragging does not reflect childishness. bragging can be
            noted from the way you express something for example if i tell some one
            that ‘i am an American’, this is just disclosing my
            identity/nationality but if i express that with pride then it becomes
            ‘bragging’. the speaker may or may not notice but some one else can
            judge. this is a simple English that even a child can understand.
            talking
            about listing ten scripture to some one who do not believe in the word
            of God is as silly as asking me to do so, any way how would this benefit
            an theist. if you had some respect for the word of God, it would be a
            great deal talking in the same language with you. after all for now you
            would depute any thing that comes from the Holy word of God.

            i
            will not comment about the number of different christian sects that you
            are emphasizing on. my great concern is the example that you have quoted
            (john 11:35). It makes me understand that you are not aware of the
            difference between “scripture analysis” and “scripture interpretation”
            the case in your point is analysis not interpretation. you should have
            been taught this in Seminary just in case you skipped it in the
            kindergarten. or rather you should have first consulted people who are
            conversant with the matter to help before you embarrass yourself in
            public like this. read reflection of interpretation in Daniel 2,4,5 you
            will be able to get the meaning of interpretation.

            about the gay
            No one wants them executed as you are expressing, I love them, we love
            them, I do not have the power to create life only God can and i know
            that even God loves them that is why he is still maintaining them. what
            makes the difference is that all those mentioned are against the
            behaviors they have driven their bodies to. its perversion, deviance,
            sin, insult to to God etc.Such people think they have to follow their
            lust and feeling but God would like us to live according to his will.
            this is what is makes the deference between me and you.

            God Bless Ya’ll

          • YouNoWho

            Even calling it “Bible school” is belittling. I gave my to credentials, which is perfectly appropriate in this forum where Christians gang up on a guy who used to be one of them and now isn’t. You people just can’t stand it! So you say anything to disparage and belittle. You want respect, but you don’t give any. We see this all the time on the internet… someone is a qualified expert in a field and those who don’t like what they have to say will remark: Oh, all your expertise means nothing; I know better, and no, I’ve never read a single book on it, nor given it any thought from your perspective, but my opinion is just as good as yours and your ‘book learning’ means nothing because you just don’t get it.” And that’s exactly what you people are doing here. Not one of you has the least bit of respect for my credentials (which doesn’t mean you have to agree with my conclusions), and that’s just mean. And ignorant. And some of you will now come on here and say I’m whining for not getting respect. That’s because you are either mean or simply not bright enough understand how to conduct yourselves in an truly adult manner when discussing something uncomfortable for you. If you want to be spoken to with respect, try showing some.

            My message is straightforward. Since deciding to think for myself and leaving the ministry, I have gotten increasingly sick and tired of the behavior of many Christians (see this thread!) who are not just supremely arrogant but do their best to butt their way into politics to ensconce their anti-humanity notions into law. You severely hurt people in a flippant manner and back it up with a trite “Thus saith the Lord.” When someone points out that millions of Christians see it differently, you mind set is anything but giving a hoot. Your sole effort is to shield and protect your “cherished” beliefs from evidence or reason.

            By the way, I’ll give you some more fodder for lashing out. You are free to call this “bragging.” I have traveled extensively on six of the seven continents. I have volunteered in several medical missions around the world. I have single-handedly changed individual lives in very real and concrete ways, such as by transporting them long distances to get medical care. This is not with any organization! Just me and another guy who enjoy making the world a better place. I don’t mean by giving offerings to a megachurch. I mean by stepping foot in third-world tribal areas that very few people ever even dare to enter, much less do anything about what they see. Club feet, cleft palates, numerous burn victims (kids who fall into cooking fires)… Just a 2-man show, hiring expensive vehicles and drivers, finding those who need it, transporting them, arranging with medical professionals. Now, what you will see as “bragging,” I put forth to demonstrate how and why I can get so angry at you people who seem to enjoy seeing how many people you can put down today… how many lives you can make miserable on your god’s behalf. If I spend all that time and money improving lives, surely you can understand why I get so irked at people, in the name of religion, who leave the world a little worse than they found it, instead of better. You sit there in your comfy homes like the world revolves around you, while others are not only making the world better, but not doing by sitting comfy at home.

            Interesting how so many of you, when challenged for once in your lives, just come on here and preach about how I don’t really know scripture, how right you are about everything, how everybody who doesn’t see it just your way is wrong. You are so used to the pat answers, to the perfect way to put a spin on a religious answer or platitude…. and all for what? Simply to reassure yourselves that you are always right, never wrong, and above all, put others down. And again, you especially can’t stand it that someone who was once where you are, chucked it all as mere superstition. Correction… one who knew far more about practically everything related to the topic than you who keep coming on here with such thoughtless, rather childish remarks.

            As for claiming to “love” the homosexual, no you don’t. That’s merely a religious form of love. It saying the right word as a cover for putting them down and keeping them second class. The proof: if you really loved them, they’d feel it. It’s just the words you say to gloss over the fact that you, unlike millions of other Christians, prefer to call them “sinners.”

            WHY AREN’T YOU CALLING FOR THEIR EXECUTION? The Bible you claim to follow calls for you to put them to death, right? So why aren’t you lobbying for a law to execute them, instead of just trying to make their lives miserable?

            The answer is: you are hypocrites. You claim to follow the letter of the law in the Bible, standing by every word of it. But the truth is, you only pick and choose what’s convenient. There’s a video going around of a preacher preaching for the execution of gays. If YOU aren’t doing that, then why not, if it’s in your Bible?

            It just goes to show the shallowness of your religion. Hate those you don’t like, pretend it’s “love,” maybe even convince yourselves it is (because you don’t really think from anyone’s perspective but your own), but hey, just ignore the part that might make you look like a fool. Claim to follow the Bible, but ignore the part about execution because that would cause people to say you’re crazy.

            Funny how hypocrisy is rampant, but nobody is a hypocrite. Look in the mirror.

            Here’s something for you to chew on:

            http://www.alternet.org/belief/major-threat-religion-clergy-people-coming-out-atheists?page=0%2C1&paging=off&current_page=1#bookmark

          • ogail

            I am glad you are now showing some sense of humility and respect in your writings. This is all we need in this place ‘respect for each other’. Once more i would like to inform you that your being in bible school for “17 years” or even being a preacher does not make you to be a christian. Christianity is beyond preaching of grabbing some verses from the bible to show that you also know something in the bible. Its personal encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ and living totally transformed life according to the word of God. this can only be done when the spirit of the lord lives in you. let me now ask you were you rely a christian? you could have been in christian church but that does not make you a christian. So never tell no body that you were a Christian you were just a hypocrite. you just had your own reason of going to bible school, or even going to mix with Christians (may be to tell people that look, i was once one of them) but the fact remains you were not a christian. you can live with monkeys and learn to behave like them and eat with them but that does not qualify you to be a monkey you would remain a human being.

            about the good work that you are doing, i congratulate you for that but holding to the fact that as a student of psychology i have studied and analyzed the reason why people help others. the reasons fills a very long list. I don’t know why you took that step (to serve God’s people without no string attached, to tell in the forum like this that you can also do good, to earn respect, to be rewarded, for tax return, to influence mind to adapt your behaviors. etc ONLY GOD KNOWS). the Major point is, you are able to do all this even with out Christ in you then you need Christ to help you do even greater than that. Trust me you will never remain the same. Think about it, you are better than what you take yourself to be and God want to show you his mercy and saving power.

            Once more we don’t hate Gays. the greatest and widest doctrine of the Bible is LOVE, we only wish they abandon that miserable life and acknowladge the saving power of God so that like others. they can live a free life totally out of slavery. this is the totality of the Gospel. there is no mention of execution in christian Gospel. Christianity tarted with Jesus. the word christian was first used in Antioch (act 11:26) I would be very surprise if you show any where a call for execution is made in Christian teaching. Its all about LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE my friend. God bless you.

          • Scott S.

            Apparently your 17 years of “formal biblical education” didn’t do much for you. Jesus Christ is the only path to salvation and therefore…Heaven…it says so in the scriptures. That’s why Jesus says in His word that He is the only path to God (“no one comes to the Father but by me”). The scriptures also warn of false teachers and false prophets.

            The problem is that people want their ears tickled and will give in to seducing spirits and lusts of the flesh and therefore become deceived. It’s going to be an endless debate until the Rapture and then the doubters and false teachers will know the truth.

            You are clearly one one of the “Religious” ones that thought they heard a calling but when things didn’t go your way, chose to go a different path…enlightened as you may think you are…there is only one right path and that path is Jesus Christ.

          • YouNoWho

            So glad you have it all figured out. LOL. And given your supernatural powers (knowing “clearly” about my life), why not take it on the road and make some big bucks?

          • jennylynn

            For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.” 2 peter 2: 20-22

          • YouNoWho

            I’m sure that if you just keep quoting the holy writing of your religion, it will be very meaningful to those who don’t belong to your religion and don’t care what it says. But hey, give it a shot. Quote away.

          • jennylynn

            Why do you troll sites about Christianity if you have nothing but indignation to offer. You are purposely here to argue. Just go to a liberal site where you will be comfortable.

          • YouNoWho

            You need to look up the definition of troll. Anyway, I answered your question already, in my last post. But to reiterate, it is because when people work to keep people down and deprive them of equality and justice, I argue against them. What, a religious site should somehow be protected against criticism. Why are you worried? If God is on your side, don’t you think he can manage me? Why don’t you just pray for me to go away? Don’t you believe in the power of prayer? [Oh god, I’m about to go away anyway, and now they’ll imagine it was their prayers, LOL.]

            Why should I go to a liberal site? They’re not the ones trying to deprive people of their dignity and equal justice, nor are they the ones trying to make their religion the law of the land. Duh. Just think about it and answer your own question.

          • jennylynn

            It seems to me you are hurt because the God of the Bible does not agree with sin. So instead of repenting you paint Him out to be an evil monster to compensate for your evil against a holy, righteous, just, God. I hope you know that He has the power and will to forgive you if you turn away from your object of desire. We all have to answer to God and turn from sin and it is not always easy. But He wil give you the strength to do so. I feel sorry for your pain, but know God loves you and would have went to the cross if you were the only person to die for. He is a great, loving, merciful God who is waiting for you to turn back to Him. He will not dissapoint. So instead of blaspheming, cry out to Him, the only God who can save you!

          • YouNoWho

            Oh please. How ridiculous. That is so lame. Typical response, though. Somehow, in the minds of Christians, it is just impossible for anyone to reject their religion simply because it doesn’t make sense. Nope, it’s got to be because they were “hurt.” I’ve heard that one a million times. I didn’t get hurt, I started thinking for myself. And stopped accepting platitudes and trite, canned answers to serious questions.

            As for me rejecting God because I like my sin, lady, trust me, you don’t have a clue. Not a clue! If you want to minister to people who reject your God and your religion, and if you want to make any sense to your audience, you need to cut out the preaching and the Bible-quoting and this totally absurd judging and instead spend your time for a while asking questions. Listening. Honestly CARING about the people you supposedly are so anxious to be sure live forever in bliss instead of torture. Your guesses about someone else’s life will be wrong 999 times out of a thousand. And quite frankly, to an outsider, especially the ones you think you know inside and out after a couple of blog posts, you sound like a fool.

            Try loving others for a change instead of judging them. Who knows, somebody actually loved might want to inquire about how you do it. Now that’s a novel idea!

          • Arrie

            Please can you detail those religions out of which Christianity sprang. I am interested to hear about this.

          • YouNoWho

            Simply google “Origins of Christianity.” The Wikipedia article is a good starting point. Check out the links, particularly under the Pagan Roots section. Plus, of course, the many other sources showing up on your google search.

          • Arrie

            So this wiki writer – must be a bewildered atheist – wants everyone to believe that the foundation set by Christ (for Jew and gentile by the way) was done so during the period of Greek rule and in accordance with Greek traditions and Greek pagan foundation.
            Hello – is anyone listening.
            The rise and fall of the greek empire has been foretold in the book of Daniel – yes, go see when this has happened, and this was way before the greek empire for those in the lazy. The foundation set by Christ was done already at the time of creation (now I’m getting your brain in a knot) – no one is older that YHVH, no one knows what is known by YHVH, and only lies have been made up to discount His holy plan for mankind.
            You seem to love internet documents, especially wiki. Guess what, I have contributed to wiki, and guess what else, I do not have a 14 year old this or that qualification, or even one year old this or that qualification of any kind – haha. The highest knowledge of the world is made foolishness by the lowliest knowledge of YHVH, so let’s stop trying to put YHVH and Yeshua in our little human boxes because it cannot be done.
            Wiki is/says/means nothing! The Word of God is uber alles!

          • YouNoWho

            As for the so-called prophecy in Daniel, of course I am very familiar with it. But all it is, is a dream that somebody interpreted as meaning various other empires would come along. Then today Christians go back and write-in what they imagine the predictions to have meant. But anybody could do that. That’s no more a prophecy than me saying I predict another war in the Middle East. Anybody can do it. But if it comes to pass, that’s no proof that I could see the future.

            To claim there’s a prophecy, ANYwhere, by ANYbody which proves the person can foresee the future is a lie. It has never happened. There are guidelines as to what constitutes such a prophecy (a REAL prophecy that proves an ability to foretell the future). For example, it must be specific, not able to be self-fulfilling, not something that has to have the blanks filled in after the fact. EXAMPLE of a real prophecy: At 3:07 pm on Sunday, July 15, 2018, there will be an earthquake of 6.2 on the Richter Scale which shall level the Amtrak train station in Podunk, Iowa, kill 2 old men, a teenage girl and a Shetland Pony, and cause the clock tower in the Podunk Tribune building to fall and smash a 1989 Buick….”

            Show me a prophecy in the Bible (or anywhere under the sun) that proves a person really can tell the future, and I’ll fall to my knee and bow.

          • MC

            Please stop using Wikipedia. You do know that prominent colleges don’t let students use Wikipedia, right? Start studying on the scholarly level, please.

          • YouNoWho

            Your remark is ridiculous. To suggest Wikipedia serves no purpose at all is just goony. Of course you are merely being purposely disingenuous. I have no respect for you. Everybody knows you don’t rely solely on Wikipedia (or any single source, if possible) for anything that’s significantly important to you. Get a grip. If YOU don’t want to trust it for anything whatsoever, fine. But do not put forth this notion that no matter what someone wants to look up, it can’t be trusted. Start contributing to the discussion in an adult manner, if you want, but cut out this silliness.

            Further discounting your remark is the fact that Wikipedia generally has references to ORIGINAL SOURCES for what it says. So it is also a good place to find the resources for your “scholarly level.” Interesting that you are unable to refute anything I’ve said with some sort of reasonable argument, fact or rebuttal, you just make a sophomoric snide remark.

            Perhaps it is disconcerting to you that I pointed out the FACT that there are an estimated 41,000 Christian sects and denominations, proving Christians can’t even agree even among themselves on how to interpret the Bible—even as they are quick to tell outsiders, “Oh you’re not interpreting that correctly!” Now that’s a hoot.

            And further disconcerting to you perhaps is that I said hundreds of them are listed on the Wikipedia page titled “List of Christian Denominations.” Just scrolling down through the list is enough to boggle one’s mind—and even perhaps make a person wonder if the Christian sacred ghost is actually doing it’s job of promoting understanding! Now if you can find a mistake on that Wikipedia page to support your notion that Wikipedia can’t be trusted, I’d love to hear about it.

            And take a class in logic. It is easy to see why colleges might require their students to use original sources, but that doesn’t even remotely mean it is not extremely helpful and beneficial in many ways and a great source of information. The whole world is not in college writing “scholarly” papers. Most of the world is regular people—who aren’t too stupid to understand the nature of a wiki.

          • MC

            I could care less if you have no respect for me as you are irrelevant to my life. It’s obvious that Wiki is perfect for you, but the rest of us study on the scholarly level. How many times have people pointed out that Wiki gets it wrong a lot of the time, even Wiki says not to use it as a primary source and everything should be doubled and tripled checked. As for the “41,000 Christian sects”, yeah, even Wiki says it can’t verify that number, and they list Mormonism as a Christian denomination. LOL! There are only a handful of Christian denominations, and they agree on the essentials, where they disagree on is the nonessentials, and that has nothing to do with salvation. Only the foolish and uneducated would fall for the, “41,000 Christian denomination” lie. So no, it’s not disconcerting to me in the least, I just make fun of the fools. Like I said before, start studying on the scholarly level if you can. Oh, you also might want to take a class in logic and critical thinking, especially critical thinking for you.

          • YouNoWho

            No doubt Jesus is very proud of you for the manner in which you make him look good. (Not.)

            You continue to embarrass yourself. (1) That’s why it’s called an “estimate.” (2) “Mormonism” IS a Christian religion. For someone who studies only on a “scholarly level,” you should know that. (3) If I am “irrelevant to your life,” then why do you keep responding?

            I understand you are in an uncomfortable position, as so many religious notions can easily be shown to be illogical or contradictory. I always figure a Christian might find it less disconcerting and anxiety-prone to just say right up front the truth: “I do not expect my religion is not based on reality or facts or evidence or logic, it is based on the supernatural world (superstition) and I believe it just because I want to. It’s really cool to imagine that a supernatural being will bring me back from the dead and cause me to live for trillions upon trillions of years without a care in the world and nary a problem (but amazingly never bored), and all that time I can remember and rejoice that YouNoWho continues to writhe in the unspeakable torture by fire without ever being able to die. And as for the contradictions in my religion, it doesn’t bother me because I’m just believing what I want to, anyway, without any actual evidence for it. I just don’t like it when others acknowledge that there are contradictions that don’t bother me.”

            But honest with self is said to be the most difficult form of honesty.

          • MC

            “No doubt Jesus is very proud of you for the manner in which you make him look good. (Not.)”

            Yes, he is proud of me, but you don’t know God so your opinion is irrelevant.

            “You continue to embarrass yourself. (1) That’s why it’s called an “estimate.” (2) “Mormonism” IS a Christian religion. For someone who studies only on a “scholarly level,” you should know that.”

            No, Mormonism is NOT a Christian denomination because they go against essential Christian doctrine. You would know that if you ever studied the Bible on the scholarly level instead of making stupid assertions. So the only one who continues to embarrass themselves is you.

            “I understand you are in an uncomfortable position, as so many religious notions can easily be shown to be illogical or contradictory.”

            Show me verifiable evidence for your straw-man assertions? And no, I’m actually very comfortable.

            “But honest with self is said to be the most difficult form of honesty.”

            Let me know when you become honest with yourself, I wouldn’t want to miss it. In the meantime, put on your little pointed thinking cap and provide verifiable evidence for your assertions? Let’s see your 17 years of “Bible school” in action, I’ll even let you use your precious Wikipedia.

          • YouNoWho

            You wish to cast doubt on the estimate of 41,000 Christian sects and denominations that exist largely because they can’t agree on how to interpret their own scriptures? I invite others to see the footnote describing the degree of reliability of this estimate **as reported by the Christian groups themselves.** Here it is:

            ” 3. Appendix B: Methodology for Estimating Christian Movements, “Global Christianity: A Report on the Size and Distribution of the World’s Christian Population”, The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, December 19, 2011. “The figures on Christian movements in this report were commissioned by the Pew Forum from the Center for the Study of Global Christianity (CSGC) at Gordon–Conwell Theological Seminary in South Hamilton, Mass. CSGC researchers generated their estimates based in large part on figures provided by Christian denominations and organizations around the world. CSGC has obtained denominational membership information from about 41,000 organizations worldwide.”

          • MC

            Again, show me how “41,000” denominations differ on the essentials? A person who went to “Bible school” for a few months would know the difference between the essentials and non-essentials, let alone “17 years”. LOL! Do you even know what the difference is between the essential and non-essential Christian doctrine is?

          • YouNoWho

            Yes, I know the difference. Essential: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Non-essential: that God sacrificed himself, to himself, in order to appease himself.

            You are insulting.

            Mormons believe in Jesus Christ as their savior. That makes them Christian. YOU can make up your own definitions all you want. Doesn’t make you right. To tell others they aren’t “really” Christian is the height of arrogance.

            Re-read all your posts. I have no doubt that you are an embarrassment to most Christians (fundamentalists cannot BE embarrassed, LOL). All you do is belittle and insult and disparage others. Grow up and start interacting with people like an adult.

          • MC

            “Yes, I know the difference. Essential: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Non-essential: that God sacrificed himself, to himself, in order to appease himself.”

            No, it figures you have no idea of the differences. Blows a hole in your “17 years in Bible school” lie doesn’t it? Wow, that was a total fail on your part.

            “You are insulting.”

            Like you, your opinion is irrelevant so cry to someone who cares. Sorry, but I’m not the doormat that you hoped for.

            “Mormons believe in Jesus Christ as their savior. That makes them Christian.”

            No, just because they believe in Jesus doesn’t make them a Christian any more than it makes Jim Jones, David Koresh, or Sun Myung Moon. Of course you would know this if you’ve ever taken Christianity 101 and basic critical thinking. LOL!

            “Re-read all your posts. I have no doubt that you are an embarrassment to most Christians (fundamentalists cannot BE embarrassed, LOL). All you do is belittle and insult and disparage others.”

            Reread all your silly uneducated posts Mr. Wikipedia, you’re are an embarrassment to higher learning and to all human beings. I treat others the same way they treat others, you don’t get my respect because you have proven not to deserve respect. I treat you like the way you want to be treated, like the troll that you are. Your whole life is based on you going online to troll Christian sites to spread you hate and intolerance against religious people, how sad and pathetic. What a life you have going for yourself. You make embarrassing straw man assertions but can never back them up, you constantly make self contradicting arguments that refute themselves, face it, you’re a joke.

            “Grow up and start interacting with people like an adult.”

            Yeah, you might want to stop projecting all your failures and low self-esteem onto others, then maybe you wouldn’t go around life being pitied. And get some professional mental health help for your Dunning–Kruger effect.

            I’ll let you have the last word as you are the type of person who’s life really needs it and you really are just an irrelevant bore to me.

          • YouNoWho

            You repeatedly tell me, “you really are just an irrelevant bore to me.” But then you keep responding to me. Try getting honest with yourself about that. If you succeed in that first little step, maybe try expanding the effort into other areas as well. Good luck, though. Honesty with self is the most difficult form of honesty.

            Don’t mean to cause you to lose any sleep, but more and more clergy are coming out of the closet and announcing that they really don’t believe a word of it. And for every one who is brave enough to be that honest publicly (and who can afford to lose his or her job), there must be thousands who keep up the charade; they have to keep showing up at the pulpit or they loose their livelihoods… and they have families to support. Read about it here:

            http://www.alternet.org/belief/major-threat-religion-clergy-people-coming-out-atheists?page=0%2C1&paging=off&current_page=1#bookmark

          • YouNoWho

            Re what’s essential and not, etc: you can’t even tell when you’re being toyed with. Get out more. Read literature. Learn to understand literary techniques. Then maybe you won’t embarrass yourself by arguing against them and thereby showing it went right over your head.

            My guess is that you’ve never even heard of that question of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. But that’s okay, just go on telling people they need mental help. That should do it for you.

          • davidreilly7

            Ah yes, brings back fond memories. How many Angels can dance on the head of a pin.

            That lesson is still valuable to me as an unbeliever.

          • ogail

            your 17year in bible school does not make any reasonable point to me at all. you could have had your own reason to get there and continue for all that time in case your being honest. and it also matter where you went for the training any way.

            By the way every time i read your post you are becoming more irrelevant, inconsistent and offset. why can you wake up for once? having 41,000 sects does not destroy legitimacy/authenticity of Christian faith. you had your own reason to go to bible school in case you did, and after fulfilling that reason, you got out miserable, frustrated, empty and thirsty. Out of that you are turning back on Christianity. to a person like me that does not make any difference; COME TO JESUS THE GIVER OF LIFE HE WILL FILL YOU UP AND YOU WILL HAVE A REST FOR YOUR SOUL.

            you can’t tell us that ‘men expressing love in a different way’. i still wonder if you ever thought before posting this; love is not expressed in sin any thing involving sin is not Love because love comes from God. people who are caught up in gay lifestyle are merely fulfilling the lust of the flesh.

          • Neiman

            Excellent response, truly excellent.

          • Riley Grant

            Your Bible calls anyone who dare to think for themselves a “fool.” It has a built in defense system in the fact that anyone who tells you that it’s wrong just doesn’t understand the Lord, and that is a ridiculous way of “defending your faith.”

          • Pamela Hankins

            Psalm 14:1-3, “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works,
            there is none that doeth good.
            The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”

            Psalm 53:1-3, “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity:
            there is none that doeth good.
            God looked down from heaven upon the children of men,
            to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”

            Psalm 92:5-9, “O Lord, how great are thy works!
            and thy thoughts are very deep. A brutish man knoweth not;
            neither doth a fool understand this. When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish;
            it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: but thou, Lord, art most high for evermore. For, lo, thine enemies, O Lord, for, lo, thine enemies shall perish; all the workers of iniquity shall be scattered.”

          • John Robin Hayes

            Please send reference link or list of 300+ contradictions. I am very interested in seeing a list from a minister studied in the Bible; rather than the data from unverifiable sources. Thank you.

          • YouNoWho

            First of all, if you are a student of the Bible, you should already be aware of many of them. Second, I shouldn’t have to do your homework. You could google them in seconds.

            I am not concerned with most of the contradictions, as most of them are “minor” (though one could argue that even a minor flaw in a “perfect” revelation from God renders it false). I personally put the contradictions in two categories: the broad, overall contradictions of of the message itself and the actual literal contradictions.

            In the latter category, for example, which of the two sets of creation stories is correct? They can’t both be right. One has to be false. Did God come to bring peace or a sword? The list is long.

            Did Judas get hung up in a tree, or jump off a cliff? Those are the kinds of things which are said to add up to 300+.

            If there was ANYTHING in the Bible beyond the ken of ordinary humans to write, that would be impressive. But there isn’t. Instead, there are all these contradictions that indicate that its writing was very human indeed, not inspired and perfect.

            As for my first category of contradictions, on basic themes, there are many of those too. Jesus in the New Testament is the SAME God as the God of the Old Testament. But one of the huge observations by anyone paying attention is: why are they two different gods, anything but alike? And this, even though God says he “changes not,” but is “the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.”

            A biggie for me is the FACT that the O.T. God is frankly a real bastard; as a criminal, he’d surpass any criminal of modern times. He sent his people on massive genocidal missions, requiring them to break the 6th commandment on his behalf, and then rewarded his religious terrorists with virgins. How is this anything but evil? God himself with his own mouth told people where to buy their slaves, saying they could “own” their slaves “forever” and pass them down to their heirs. Slavery is endorsed throughout the Bible from cover to cover. The wisest, most abled being in the universe did not manage even to so much as hint that slavery could be a bad thing. It’s not forbidden in the 10 Commandments (in which women are listed among the man’s property). How is this not evil?

            The point is, this is a huge contradiction which, all by itself (forget the other 300) renders it false: one cannot be both evil and the very essence of goodness and love at the same time.

            Hope that’s enough. For more, do your own research. It’s easy.

          • Pamela Hankins

            My father was a self proclaimed atheist. He was a poet, a scholar, a math teacher, a pole vaulter, a violinist, an inventor, an artist, a champion weight-lifter, the anchor man on the swim team…someone you would have liked and admired as many did. Through the years, we had many conversations about God. I always said to him that he could shut his eyes real tight and declare to the world that there was no sun, but that would not make it so. In his late eighties, after having some very disturbing experiences that he could not explain, he called on the God he did not believe in. He said, ‘if you are there, heal me of my elephantiasis, and I will tell everyone that You are real.” God did! Hmmm. Guess that was just the imagination of an atheist. You know, when God shows up, all of those smart-ass, high-minded ideologies and ready answers will not mean one thing. You will have to acknowledge, as my father did at last, that God is who He claims to be. AND…if He’s the bad ass you think He is…maybe you better think about that! Romans 11:22, “Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off”.

          • YouNoWho

            You say “Guess that was just the imagination of an atheist” and yeah, I would have to agree, unless his case is documented in medical journals—as it certainly should be and would be, if you’re saying that without taking any medication, worms that were clearly there and documented suddenly, after a prayer, were inexplicably not there. And it’s all documented. I simply do not believe you. If what you say was a bona fide, clear case of a miracle, then it would be documented in medical journals!

            What’s the REAL truth is that God only “heals” things that can be healed naturally without prayer as well. You will NEVER find a documented case of a prayer healing anything that does NOT also occur naturally. For example, say there’s a young mother of 5 whose arms are severed in an accident. Get millions and millions of your most devout Christians on the planet to pray ceaselessly for God to heal at least ONE of her arms to help her care for her kids and see what happens. You know, and I know, she wouldn’t grow an arm back in a million years. Salamanders can do it automatically. Easily. God can merely speak a single word and entire universes are created. Giving this woman an arm back would instantly turn most of the world to God. In fact God said the reason he’d perform all these fabulous miracles for his followers would be so that non-believers would see it and turn to him. So here’s the perfect storm for him to keep his promise and help this young mother care for her kids. But he won’t. Elephantiasis can be cured with medicine, but no medicine can grow an arm back… so God is credited for doing what medicine can already do, but not getting the blame for failure to do anything that medicine can’t do.

            Atheists who turn to God when death is imminent are not atheists. They might be backsliders, or they might be people who never believed but just hadn’t given it a thought. But any person who is a “self-declared” atheist, who simply cannot see any evidence of a supernatural “god” being, is not going to suddenly call out to a god any more than YOU would write a letter to Santa when you cannot bring yourself to believe he exists.

          • Scott S.

            “If what you say was a bona fide, clear case of a miracle, then it would be documented in medical journals!” No it wouldn’t because secular medical and science doesn’t accept the existence of God despite these things happening for millenia.

            The same argument you put forth towards Ms. Hankins can be made of your early ministry. You say you have 17 years of Biblical knowledge and degrees here and there (of which can be bought online for cheap) but there’s no spiritual evidence to back it up…therefore it can’t be true…..

            It’s clear that your only purpose here is to lobby for gay rights and endlessly attempt to bash the Bible for it’s stance on these issues. In the end, homosexuality will lose.

            It would be better for us all to pray for this person than continue to play his game and debate with a wall. If the Lord can save a thief on a Cross then He can change an athiest/homosexual or anyone else for that matter (if willing)….

          • Pamela Hankins

            It’s funny how much I agree with you regarding cherished beliefs. Its refreshing to hear that anyone subjects what they dearly believe to any such scrutiny, and that, to me, is the most important thing. But, you have to start somewhere. You have to have a foundation. It’s not that all those that cling to their prejudices are not saved, some are what I would describe as babies in their understanding of Scripture, having been led, as I said, and never questioning outside of their particular brand of religion. I questioned…discounting ‘experiences’ as to whether or not God was there. He showed up. In so many ways. My atheist sister…a social worker, family counselor, once said it was simply coincidence. Well, wow! how many coincidences can there be day after day? Finally, after I kept trying to do what we are ‘supposed to do’, i.e. go to church, I found I could not bear to hear what dribble they were preaching. Pablum, baby food, platitudes. No wonder people are leaving in droves! God is not in a box of our definition. We like to keep things nice and neat in our ‘should be’ box. Life is not that way. God uses every circumstance to either wake us up to our need of Him, if we are out of the bounds of His protection (because we vehemently desire to go our own way), or, if we are His children, our circumstances are designed to reveal our hearts, and thereby, eventually bring us into our greatest capacity. In a great house are vessels both to honor and to dishonor. Regarding my father’s healing, that was the testimony of my brother, who was there, I was not, but when I saw him the year before he died, he no longer had elephantiasis. Whether or not the nursing home recorded it, I don’t know. But, I have been an eye witness of other such events. When my husband and I were in Hawaii in December of 2012, he was on crutches, suffering from having foolishly over exercised. He’d been on crutches for several weeks; when we were in a restaurant, waiting for a table…he finally asked me to call an ambulance, but before I did, he asked me to pray for him. I did. And he was healed. Just like that! After we ate, he threw away his crutches. No one was more surprised than me. It’s not about magic words. Its not about getting something. Its not about bending a deity to do our bidding! I don’t tell many people these things, but I believe you really are sincere, and I don’t blame you for the incredible confusion surrounding these issues. Telling you some things would be like opening the door to my bedroom in their intimacy. They are for me, and maybe, for single souls that come across my path under certain circumstances. If I were like some, I would regale you with the incredible things that have happened to me, but the most incredible is that this awesome Being, wanted to be loved. The story of Adam naming the animals was an analogy…he being made in God’s image, and finding that in all creation there was not a creature that could compare with him. And so God made one…just for him, and that is the story of Creation in a nutshell. Out of humanity, there would come a Bride, fit for Him. Not one that was made to love Him, but just like you want to be loved because someone wants to be with you, and finds you amazing, one that loved Him, just because of Who He is. Some materials in this world simply thud when they are touched, and others, like crystal, sing in their response. That’s what its all about. What are you made of?

          • YouNoWho

            That was a very nice post, Pamela. And you know what? I have no problem with Christians who are content in what they believe and its working for them. It is only when their behaviors hurt others that I will come to the defense of the downtrodden. With respect to gay people, millions of Christians and entire denominations accept people who are different through no choice of their own with open arms, and they do not see scripture as saying God wants them to be alone and lonely their entire lives. Yet there are other Christians, many of them, who would rather die than treat those who are merely different from them with dignity and equality. So it’s not that the Bible is clearly on their side. Makes more sense, when you consider the nature of God, that he’d be on the side of erring on the side of compassion. I’m rambling. Basically, I lash out when I see an effort to keep good people down, to hurt them.

            I used to be a Christian minister. Today I am an atheist, simply because I have a commitment to truth as best I can perceive it, wherever it leads, even if the news is bad. (I am not going to believe I’ll come back from the dead and live trillions of years just because I’d like to.) We can’t choose our beliefs. We can choose what we’d LIKE to believe, but in our heart of hearts, we can either buy something or we can’t. In the case of religion, God could, if he exists, bring that conviction to the heart of every sincere seeker. But we have countless examples of cases where that hasn’t worked, me being one of them. I’m not running from God, I’m not wanting to just do things my own way. I’m just a guy who, after much study, now sees Christianity as no different from all those other religions out of which it sprang. I’d LOVE for it to be true, but I just see no evidence of it. And I have studied every argument there is on both sides.

            As for my personal life, I’ll be blunt: I’m more Christlike than most Christians I know. I have a couple of relatives, one is a minister and one is a deeply devout fundamentalist Christian. (He boycotted my wedding for fear someone might think he condones my sins, LOL.) Anyway, they are both devoted Christians. When it was time to sell my car because it had just too many problems to be worth fixing it, they both gave me advice on how to downplay the problems in my ad on Craigslist. I’m not saying this to insinuate all Christians are like that, I’m saying it to toot my own horn, to demonstrate that atheists are no more or less moral than Christians. I have devoted my time and money to medical missions overseas numerous times (as an atheist). I really care about the less fortunate. And when I see these Christians trying to force their notions of death and negativity on other people who just want to be left alone to their own pursuit of happiness as they see fit, it just makes my blood boil.

            So that’s where I’m coming from. And yes, it’s hard not to get pretty up close and personal with people after years of dealing with these issues. Above all, I want to point out that if people WANTED to treat gay people right, the Bible would pose no more of a problem than it does by supporting slavery and condemning women to lives of subservience. If people can get around THOSE biblical hurdles, they can find a way to show love instead of condemnation to homosexuals. They just have to want to.

            Forgive the rambling. It’s late and I have much to do but find it hard not to resist responding.

            As for the miracles, I won’t argue with you about that. But I will say that when God starts performing miracles that clearly could not be the result of natural occurrence, I will join the rest of the world in paying some serious attention! After all, God said he’d work miracles for the believers so that non-believers would be blown away by it and turn to Him. We aren’t seeing that happen yet. But I’m glad good things have happened for you whether it was miraculous or not.

          • Pamela Hankins

            Wow…people are riled up! And they should be. To me, I see what you are talking about. It’s actually my pet peeve, you could say. People claiming to know the Lord fall into two groups. And, that’s where the confusion lies. Some, have agreed with God, come through the Door, which is Christ, and are simply unlearned in the Word. Helen Keller is a good example of what I am trying to say. Her teacher was trying to break through her darkness, her inability to see, hear, or understand the world as it is. A simple spoon put into her hand had no meaning, it was resented. But, gradually, with patience and time, she began to understand. Becoming familiar with the things of God is the same. He puts us into circumstances we do not understand, think necessary, or appreciate. Yet, He is persistent and gradually, the Student begins to understand, some to one degree and others moreso. Then, on the other hand, there are those who come to the Door and never go through it. Instead of becoming a new creature in Christ, they only imitate what they perceive to be a Christian. This is concluded in unbelief, but to those looking on, there is no way at this stage to determine who is who. That’s why we are instructed not to judge someone’s salvation. The wheat and the tares are allowed to grow together for a time. There should come a time, though, when we are no longer babes in Christ. When we desire the meat of the Gospel, a deeper understanding of the ‘more excellent way’ that Paul referred to in 1 Corinthians. The baby church was having a great time ‘in the Lord’…running amok. But, Paul says, “…when I was a child, I thought as a child, but when I became a man, I put away my childish things…”. He said, its not about the ‘gifts of the Spirit, so much as about agape love. That kind of love does not act the way you are describing ‘Christians’ as acting. So, to them, I say…you need not be afraid of ‘sin’ per se. That holy thing born in you will prevail. God is at work to keep you, if indeed you have been born of His Spirit. All of the Books of the NT speak of these things. The first thing folks wanted to do in the early Church was to make sure that everyone obeyed the Law, or lacking the Torah, at least make a list of some sort. Again, Paul said, “I marvel that you are so soon removed from the gospel”, “having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?”. Trust in the Lord with all your heart. Lean not to your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him. And HE will direct your paths!. Also, much Bible study does not often reveal the continuity of the Word, because most do not grasp the underlying premise (of the Bride) as I outlined in my last post. The NT comes out of the OT. That Holy God that is portrayed there put the buffer of Christ between us so that we would no longer be subject to His righteous anger. That’s what Jesus did. He was perfect in all His ways. John 8:28, “Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things”. Paul, as student of the Torah, at the feet of Gamaliel, was God’s chosen vessel to put the truth of what happened out of the OT, and display it in the New, using the common language, embracing the whole world, not just the Jews anymore. For this Paul gave his life. He was made to suffer. Truth is not at all what we imagine it to be. It does not fit into any Box. Sometimes, well, all the time, we have to let go, and know that God, however we may dislike something He does, knows more than we do. We look at life through a microscope, He, being much larger, sees life from a broader perspective. Water droplets do not look like the water we drink when seen through a microscope! In fact, many having looked at it thusly, don’t want to drink it any more. But, its the stuff of life, and we can’t do without it. So, it is with the water of Life. Lets trust the One whose Plan it was first, to bring you into this world, to enable you to know Him, who gave you His Word as a foundation, who loves you with an everlasting love, even though you deny Him…It’s OK to have questions, to be angry, to kick against Him for awhile. He is patient, waiting for you.

          • YouNoWho

            I’m sure you mean well, but I look at your sermon and sigh, because you really don’t get where I’m coming from and where I’m at. Complimenting your sincerity did not mean I was a possible candidate for reconsecrating my life to Jesus.

            Here is another thing I find really bizarre. People tend to hit up a non-believer with more scripture, more sermonizing, more books to read… as if hearing it all just this one more time will do the trick and suddenly it will be something they said that finally got through to them and caused them to say “OH! I get it now!”

            This is especially true with gay people. You can be a hundred years old and tell a Christian you’re gay and in most cases, the quick and thoughtless reply will be that the Bible says it’s wrong, AS IF THEY’VE NEVER HEARD IT DAY AFTER DAY FOR THEIR ENTIRE LIVES, as if, amazingly, they are calling something to their attention that they may not be aware of. Or as if when they hear it THIS time, it will finally sink in. People just talk off the top of their heads without THINKING first.

            Someone talked about miracles on here. I can tell you this. If you keep quoting more Bible to someone who has spent ALL the YEARS of his adult life reading and studying on religious topics, not to mention even having a degree in it and years of pastoral experience, and if you imagine that the sacred ghost is speaking to your heart and telling you that if you just quote more Bible to this guy, then voila! suddenly this will be the time that will do the trick and undo those years of agonizing study and bring a lost soul back, then join the club. THAT would truly be a miracle. The sacred ghost has apparently spoken to hundreds of people, impressing them to hit me up with it just one more time and they will be the ones who God finally used in such a miraculous way. I don’t mean to be rude, really I don’t, but good grief, people, THINK. It is not the holy ghost you are hearing. The mental impressions you are getting that tell you that maybe you can explain it better than anybody else ever did, such that I finally get it (again!), are your own mental impressions. They are not God whispering to you to tell it to me one more time. People have been telling it to me one more time for more decades than I care to reveal. And if you’re God is going to take a lifetime to get through to a sincere seeker, then I don’t think much of him, no matter how many platitudes and rationalizations you can come up with that make sense in your own mind. This is ME trying to get through to YOU. Only difference is, I’ve heard YOUR message all my life. This could perhaps be the first time you’ve heard MY message. Which is why I’ve bothered to post.

            But we’ve started a new week. I cannot go into the new week investing this amount of time spreading the gospel of reality. So if you’ve prayed for me to go away, don’t get too excited; I am going away anyway, LOL.

          • Pamela Hankins

            No, I didn’t pray for you to go away. It rather makes me sad. I’ve enjoyed this. I rarely get an opportunity to share these things. But, really, I am not trying to woo you, or compliment you…I mean what I say. And, like you, what I post is with the knowledge that others are reading as well. I know you are trying to get your ‘message’ across. The sister I mentioned (I have three and only one is a lesbian) told me to shut up a long time ago…that I should not worry about her soul. And so, I haven’t said a word, for many, many years. Her partner, raised in an ‘Christian’ home, left awhile back, coming to the conclusion, like the author of this article did, that her lifestyle was in error. Both consider themselves to be ministers. Like a said before, there has to be a foundation for thought that goes beyond the current ideology. The Scriptures have been that foundation in many ways, for millions of souls, for thousands of years. We live our tiny lives at least long enough to figure out that current ideology changes regularly. Oh well, nuf said. Signing off.

          • John Robin Hayes

            I apologize for being considered lazy and not doing my homework. Thank you for your lengthy criticism of my question, I am not sure it was truly deserved, but in the interest of peacemaking, I will go do my homework, sorry to bother you.

          • YouNoWho

            Maybe not “truly deserved”?

            You asked a question, I answered it.

          • Scott S.

            So nobody can quote scripture if they aren’t educated in a Biblical Seminary? I’ve seen more Seminary grads misquote and twist scripture than those that aren’t.

            I’ve got news for you, you don’t need a college degree to read and understand the scriptures. They are quite obvious and straight forward on the subject of homosexuality. However the Enemy is constantly trying to chip away and deceive anyone he can to keep them from knowing the truth.

          • YouNoWho

            What an ignorant response on so many levels. First of all, I didn’t say “nobody can quote scripture if they aren’t educated in a Biblical Seminary.” Learn to read more carefully and stop being so thoroughly disingenuous. Same with your next paragraph. Absolutely idiotic, that first sentence, and again disingenuous.

            And finally, take a look at this sentence of yours: “[The scriptures] are quite obvious and straight forward on the subject of homosexuality.” You only reveal your ignorance and arrogance to say such a thing. I’ll give you just two reasons (not that I expect you to comprehend them, based on the kind of reply you posted, but somebody else might find them helpful.

            The first reason why that statement is ignorant is this: There are an estimated 41,000 different Christian sects and denominations, proving that not Christians cannot agree, even among themselves, on how to interpret scripture—even to the point of fighting and breaking away to start a new Christian denomination with the “REAL” truth. But now comes along you, and YOU state, with a certainty bordering on arrogance, that YOUR interpretation, out of many, is the the one and only true interpretation. How convenient. You read something, and then automatically, whatever comes off the top of your head, you’re sure you have it right and everybody else is wrong. OR you might think you’re the only one right because God or the Sacred Ghost spoke to you, through mental impressions, to tell you that, of all interpretations, yours is definitely it. Well I think that’s just ridiculous.

            It’s not ridiculous for the belief you hold, it’s ridiculous that you are unwilling even to acknowledge that any other point of view exists and that you could, as easily as they, be mistaken.

            Here’s the second reason why your comment that the scripture is clear about homosexuality is absurd and false…..

            Are you man enough to give this a listen?

            Homosexual acts and “homosexuality” are two different things. Homosexual ACTS can be performed by anyone, straight or gay. The Bronze-Age men who wrote the Bible had no concept of a sexual orientation toward the same gender. That did not come into people’s awareness until about 200 years ago. Follow me here….

            The Bible is concerned about *perversion.* In Bible times, everyone was thought to be the same (we call it heterosexual today). Anyone caught committing a sexual act with a person of the same gender was thought to be a straight person (in today’s terminology) dabbling over the line in hedonistic perversion. That is what the Bible condemns. You can even see it in one of the texts that says like “doing it with men as you do with women.” That’s not “homosexuality,” that’s a perversion of one’s natural sexual orientation, straight people crossing the line in a hedonistic manner. A perversion of what is natural for them.

            Nowhere in the entire Bible is homosexuality mentioned or talked about. No writer said, Look, we’re not just talking about perversion, we’re also talking about people whose natural, innate orientation toward sex is for the same gender. There is nothing whatsoever in these texts that imply or hint that they’re talking about people in love who are expressing their love sexually in a loving manner that is natural for them.

            Now if you want to be a tool, you can say, “Well, it doesn’t come right out and say it’s okay to be gay,” as if that means it is therefore wicked and sinful to love another human the “wrong” way. That would be a very dumb and disingenuous thing to say. What you SHOULD say is this: “Wow, I see what you mean. That is one way of seeing these texts! After all, I always wondered why God would arbitrarily put gays down and not want them to love anyone. It just doesn’t seem right that God would be more pleased for gays to be alone and lonely their entire lives. Seems he’d be more pleased to have them enjoy a full and happy life filled with love, in the manner natural for them, just like everybody else.”

            And guess what. MILLIONS of Christians, and even entire denominations, interpret it that way. You don’t have to. You can interpret it any way you wish. You can even imagine it requires gays to eat a shoestring on the third Wednesday after every blue moon. You can even IMAGINE the sacred ghost is telling you that you and only you have the right interpretation. But that doesn’t make you right.

            Improve your image and stop embarrassing yourself. Acknowledge a range of possible interpretations of these texts. Apply general biblical principles and the nature of God and what he wants for his people. Ask yourself if it isn’t your own prejudices, not the Bible, that is behind your desire to keep a despised and unliked minority down. After all, you seem to be able to ignore the Bible on a whole host of other things you find inconvenient. (Need we list them?) Ask yourself if it’s just religion’s historic and endless obsession over sex that is the problem here. Ask yourself what’s the worst that could happen if you started treating members of all minority classes with dignity, justice and equality. Ask yourself why you’re not crying out for the execution of gays (the Bible requires it, according to you; are you too embarrassed to go all the way with your belief?)

            Come to any conclusion you want and nobody will really care, if they can see that you aren’t ignorant, that you at least UNDERSTAND other points of view before rejecting them automatically because they differ with what just comes off the top of your head. And above all, stop lying about the Bible being “clearly” on your side and stop this ridiculous intonation that millions of other Christians couldn’t possibly be right—but you’re certain you are.

          • jennylynn

            Satan knew the Bible better than anyone and did not worship God. He wanted to be God. Kind of like the rest of the people who deny Him an His word. They have decided that they know more and are therefore superior. Nothing new. Also knowing the Bible and being regenerated are two different things.

            Without faith it is impossible to please God.
            Hebrews 11:6

          • YouNoWho

            Well I for one certainly know better than God about quite a number of things. I know better than to turn to bears loose on 42 children for behaving like children. I know better than to tell people to break my own 6th commandment and go out and commit massive genocide on every man, woman and child for having a different religion. I know better than to reward religious terrorists with virgins. But God did all those things. So yeah, I should HOPE I know better than God in those things!

            Have you stoned your children to death yet for being unruly. Oh? Turns out maybe you think you know better than good too, because I suspect your kids are still alive, and I don’t imagine it’s because they’re perfect. I think you thought you knew better than God, and spared their lives.

          • jennylynn

            You fail to realize the person to blame is mankind and his sin. We are living in a fallen world because man decided to disobey and all creation is groaning under a curse. You are blaming God who you do not understand. You are finite and He is infinite. Man always fails to see the whole picture. They falsely accuse God of killing when they fail to see the evil they’ve commited against a holy omnipresent God who sees everything, even the heart. The fact is everyone has broken God’s law and the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23. God is just, but because of His mercy he can dismiss your case because He sent His son Jesus to pay your penalty. That is a merciful God. But if you don’t repent you will have to pay for your own sins and God will reveal every thought, action, and deed so you won’t have any excuse. You really know nothing and are a mere breath.

          • YouNoWho

            Your words do nothing to forge a reasonable excuse on God’s behalf for approving slavery, failing even to hint that it could be bad but instead actually told people where to buy their slaves and reassured them that they could keep them as their “property” and own them “forever” and pass them down to their heirs. A mere 5 words in the Ten Commandments might have avoided millennia of untold misery: Thou shalt not own humans.

            Nor do your words make a reasonable excuse on God’s behalf for rewarding terrorists with virgins or…. the list is long.

            But I am mildly humored by the talking-point you and others use (I say mildly, because it is so universally used): that we can’t understand God’s reasons for behaving like the worst criminal ever known. He works in mysterious ways (indeed!) and behaving that way really was a good thing. So let’s just say that kidnapping all those virgins after slaughtering their parents and brothers and sisters, and forcing the virgins to become their wives or slaves, was a GOOD thing! Yeah, that’s it.. a good thing. We know it. By faith!

            Sorry, can’t buy it. The Christian God is just like all the other gods of the day, jealous, vindictive, offering to bring you back from the dead for eternal bliss if you flatter him enough, or torturing you for trillions of years if you don’t. They are all basically alike. Christianity is pretty much a collection of various other religions out of which it sprang. Nearly all had virgin births, resurrections, at least two gods—a good one and a bad one (think Satan in this case) who were nearly matched and battled it out using humans as pawns.

            If Christianity is, unlike all the others, one that happens to be true, then I expect it to behave better than the others, not mimic them, as the O.T. God so perfectly does. Which is more likely, that God created those O.T. writers in his image, or that they created him in theirs. Just remember, everything those writers did, God just happened to approve of. Their slavery, their misogyny, ….

            Seeing this is like working one of those puzzles where you search for a hidden image in a picture. Once you see it, you can’t not see it, and you wonder what took you so long to see it.

            Just remember, I don’t give a hoot what people believe, I give a hoot about their behaviors. I care about justice and equality. Christianity isn’t about exercising one’s religion in church or among friends, it is about trying to force its notions onto society at large, even by law. And that is why I dialog about these issues in a forum. That, and because people keep responding to me, so I reply. (hint hint)

          • squishee

            You seem to be disturbed and angry about something. I’ll say an Ave for you.

          • YouNoWho

            You are so perceptive! I am indeed disturbed and angry. About the harm fundamentalism (of any stripe) wreaks on human society. I’m tired of people being hurt by religious people, whether it’s gays or the countless people in Africa suffering and DYING from AIDS because the head of a giant Christian church says condoms are a sin. Yes, “disturbed and angry.” I don’t know what an “Ave” is, but if it’s a good thing, give it to those being hurt by religion, not to me.

          • James Grimes

            YouNoWho, “Well I for one certainly know better than God about quite a number of things.”
            You are delusional. Get a life.

          • James Grimes

            YouNoWho, “Well I for one certainly know better than God about quite a number of things.”
            You are delusional. Get a life.

          • Linda Prince Johnson

            In order to believe that slavery in the Bible was no different than what was practiced in the U.S. you would have to have studied NOTHING of the customs of that time. In that time they sold “themselves” into slavery. They either did it to pay a debt they owed or to get money to help their families, etc. Masters are told to treat their slaves in particular ways and slaves are told to “stay as they are” after becoming Christians until their contract is fulfilled.

          • YouNoWho

            Nope, you are wrong. Look, the church (or those in it) are never going to say, “Yep, it was the real deal.” Of course not. It would invalidate the religion and God. But the have to say SOMEthing. So what can they say? What’s the best talking point one could come up with to explain away this embarrassing fact of God sending people on massive, murderous rampages to capture slaves? Plus telling them exactly where to BUY them from.

            The answer is exactly the talking point you present. “Oh well, it wasn’t REAL slavery, it was indentured servitude.”

            Of course there was indentured servitude. It existed. But so did slavery, the kind of slavery in which God told his people with his own mouth that they could OWN them FOREVER and even pass them down to their heirs “for they are your property.”

            I know it’s embarrassing. And I know it has to be denied, otherwise God is a false god and the religion is proven to be a farce. But the fact remains that it was NOT indentured servitude (which also existed) but actual, real slavery.

            Now you can go on believing that, without actually reading your bible and just listening to all the talking points from your church, or you can read more broadly and learn the truth. But be careful. The truth might set you free (from religion).

            One last thing for you to ponder. When God sent his people out to break the 6th commandment and slaughter every man, woman and innocent child, simply for having a different religion, and then rewarded his religious terrorists with virgins, do you have a workaround for that too? What’s your talking point for that? That genocide was for their own good because all things work together? Or perhaps that God works in mysterious ways, so that the vilest of crimes is mysteriously okay?

            The murderers were permitted to spare the lives of any virgins they came across while slaughtering everyone else, and to kidnap them and force them to become their wives or their slaves. And now you are going to tell me THAT was indentured servitude and not just plain slavery?

            If religious people want to know the REAL truth about a lot of things, they need to figure out that they’ll never get the whole truth from the pulpit. Maybe God is using people like me to tell the parts of the truth that his own messengers will never tell? Don’t embarrass yourself with that tired excuse that so many make on God’s behalf about slavery. Scholars can set you straight. Or you can just read your Bible from cover to cover and that should convince you. And by the way, since slavery has always existed, it was going on right under God’s nose when he was telling people where to capture or purchase their … uh… “indentured servants” (clearing throat); so my question is, why didn’t God say anything about that scourge? Why didn’t he make it one of the commandments? If he had to limit them to ten, he could have left out the command to flatter him because he’s jealous and add a mere 4 or 5 words: “Thou shalt not own humans.” Nowhere in the entire Bible is there so much as a hint that slavery is a bad thing. But it is supported many times from cover to cover.

            Kinda makes you wonder if man didn’t create God in his own image, given that God favored so many of the same things man did, such as slavery.

          • ogail

            i consider all that you are saying to be bragging. In reality having a degree in bible study does not mean you know word of God (you would not be bragging. you could have acknowledge the power of God). there is a difference between theological perspective of the bible and spiritual perspective of the bible so never mix the two. I can volunteer to help you if you have some ears to hear.
            honestly my experience tells me that ’empty tin make loud noise’ I am sure you will fail to prove to me that these bragging in not a mere NOISE.

          • Nick S

            The world will hate you, but for no good reason, for bringing the light and not being like them.. stay strong in the Lord, you’re awesome 🙂

          • Neiman

            Thank you. No matter how hard I try to talk about our love for the lost and that includes homosexuals, if I speak against sin, I get mostly hate here, it is never pleasant, but I don’t see I have any choice.

          • Kozyavin

            Oh…okay, this one is emotional manipulation, it’s called “blaming the victim.” In order to actually be drawing your argument from a place of love, it wouldn’t be driven from a fearful perspective.

            Try again.

          • electedbyHim

            Fundisi, you are blessed. I understand the pain, suffering and hate that comes from confronting sin to the unregenerate. I have taken a few “beatings for the name of Jesus Christ, and I will continue to do so. This is in no way inclusive to homosexuality as we know. Drunks, feminine, liars, thieves, gossipers, and the list can be exhaustive. We to were once in the unregenerate’s shoes, however, God in His grace and mercy has saved us from hell and damnation.

            On a side note: Jesus Christ preached more on sin, hell and damnation more then He did on love.

          • Chantelle

            Interesting enough this could be applied to both people in the argument. I don’t think it’s fair to assume that being drawn to someone of the same sex is the same as not being a devout Christian. I know several people who live in a Christian lifestyle, free of any sin, full of love and acceptance for all gods people, judging little and giving often but, they struggle being forced to shame about love for another consenting adult. Many committed suicide in after feeling defective and rejected by those they love. Just be careful that your personal relationships with God does not prohibit others, who are sinners as we all are, from having an open and loving relationship with their God. Assuming all experiences of same sex attraction stem from sexual abuse is just not the case for most and is as overly simplistic as saying you are ChristIan because you were abused by Muslims. Try listening to the words of compassion and understanding and unconditional love rather than codeming and creating hate and shame in a space that should be safe for all to come a go on an honest journey with their God. In short, despite the preaching, you may b hurting your own cause. You are no less “lost” just because you have sex by the book. The veil over your vices, sins, and otherness may be hidden but truse we are al equal in God’s eyes no matter how bad it may make u feel that God loves you and the “atheist” just the same.

          • Octoberfurst

            You find “nothing” in the Bible that embarrasses you? What about God commanding genocide, God telling the Israeli soldiers they could keep the virgin girls of conquered peoples as sex slaves, the pro-slavery stance? That doesn’t bother you at all?

          • Neiman

            Nothing in the Bible embarrasses me – nothing. If you want to make general charges, I am not interested in playing your game. If you want one by one to take particular passages, I am more than happy to debate them.

          • Octoberfurst

            Ok how about Deuteronomy 3 where God orders the killing of all men women and children in the kingdom of Bashon? Or how about Judges 21:12 and Judges 21:20 where the taking of sex slaves is permitted as is rape.

          • Neiman

            Deuteronomy Three
            Who knows the mind of God? The point is, it would be the height of presumption for me to dare say I know exactly what was in God’s mind, for me to suggest I can answer for Him? For we Christians, we start out by knowing that God will always do right, whether we understand His reasons or not. So, whatever I, a lowly man, might suggest from Scripture can be challenged as I will not be perfect in my answers and it would be too lengthy to cover this subject in enough detail to satisfy anyone.

            In the case of Bashan, despite their knowing that Israel was mighty and that God was with them, Gog their king sent out his armies to fight and stop Israel from “passing through” their land. These people of Bashan and Canaan were thoroughly evil, their worship of false gods and “detestable practices” had angered our Holy God, they were a moral and spiritual cancer in the land and like any cancer, every bit of that cancer must be cut out and removed or a single cell left could multiply and still bring death, in this case, moral/spiritual death to the people of Israel. There is more than ample evidence of that happening to Israel, where they did not obey God and left even the tiniest fragment of evil people left, they always came back, corrupted Israel and brought death to them, both physical and spiritual. Surely God knowing all things, seeing far into the future knew the danger they would represent to His Chosen people. Even the children would eventually rise up to take revenge and/or to bring their worship of false gods and detestable practices to the Israelite people and history tell sus God had to bring many great sorrows to His people, great judgments because by defying Him they allowed evil to corrupt them. God is Holy and He will have a holy people.

            These things were done not just for the sake of Israel, but for the whole world, so that everyone would know how much He hates evil and that He is a jealous God that will not tolerate false god’s to draw His children away from devotion to Him. I want to cut this short, as not to get weary with answering you, knowing you will only turn and rend me in your reply anyway. We do know that God is merciful and will do justice, so no matter how unfair it might appear now, in the end no one will be denied Justice. Yet, will God not defend His people from evil?

            Judges 21
            Judges“In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone
            did what was right in his own eyes.

            “This kind of moral, political, social, and
            spiritual chaos could only have happen when there was no recognized king over
            Israel – and where the people forgot about God as their King.” “Generally, the 400-year period
            of the Judges was marked by this radical individualism. They rejected the
            standard of God’s word and accepted the individual standard of what was right in their own eyes.”

            Israel had brought the tribe of Benjamin to near extinction, they had sworn not to give any of their daughters to Benjamin, yet they did not want Benjamin wiped out, they knew God had called 12 Patriarchs to this land; and, so as a bit of a charade, by this dance, making their daughters easy prey for capture, they would not be guilty of giving their daughters to Benjamin, but their quite willing daughters could be taken captive and Israel would both keep their oath and also keep Benjamin from being wiped out.

          • Octoberfurst

            I didn’t know that questioning you was “rending” you–i.e. causing emotional pain. You’re the one who asked for specifics.
            You claim that God is perfect in his morality but yet when presented with questionable actions you say, “Who can understand the mind of God?” But that’s not answering the question. If a “holy” God does apparently unholy things we have the right to question. And you claim that those massacred were “thoroughly evil” and needed to be destroyed? Really? Even the children? You’re saying every single person in Bashan was wicked? Every single one? Somehow I find that highly implausible. What about where the virgin girls were to be taken as captives–obviously to be used as sex slaves? Is it moral to use young girls as concubines?
            As for the men taking woman by force to be their wives you dismiss it as them just being lawless. Well why didn’t God stop it? There is nothing in the scripture that said what they did was wrong. I personally find such passages embarrassing but you don’t. It’s all part of “God’s mysterious will.” But yeet he is also super righteous and hates evil. Don’t you find that even a bit disconcerting?

          • Neiman

            See, I told you that no matter what I said, as Jesus warned us, people such as yourself would be likened unto a man casting pearls before swine, their being insensitive to the value of pearls, would then only rend (break or tear apart) them. Just as you have tried to do in your hatred of God.

            Whether you like it or not and I know you hate it, God says that everyone was born in iniquity, there are none good, no not one. You are a sinner self-condemned to hell, because you refuse God’s way to have all your sins wiped away. Everyone is guilty of sin, God sent His Son to pay the penalty, to bear the punishment we deserve, if we reject God, what right have we to complain?

            As to God allowing or not stopping the evil we do, it is all based on free will. Except in rare cases, He will not interfere with our free will, He will not force anyone to obey Him or to accept His salvation, everything wrong in this world is a result of our free will choices, which is always evil. If I say I will give you a billion dollars, it is a gift but you have to trust in me that I have the resources and go to the bank. If you do not go and remain poor, is that my fault? If God says I will forgive all your sins and make you into a new person and you refuse that gift, what right have you to blame God?

            Why does a pot of clay have a right to demand the potter make him into a vessel of honor? Cannot the Potter cast into the fire anything that is flawed and not have to answer to the pot? Who are you to judge God? If God’s gives you the answers and you reject them, why blame Him because you are a fool?

            If a surgeon is to do his best for the patient, would we not complain if he left any cancer behind, if he did not by surgery and other means remove it all that it will not grow back and bring death? As God knows everything, if in His foreknowledge He sees that leaving any one alive among an evil people will only bring evil and death to His people, who are you to question Him? What kind of Love would not want to protect the object of that love?

            In the case of people being disobedient, surely God will cause them to suffer His discipline for their sins against Him and others. Your father could not keep you from sneaking around a corner and grabbing a pot of boiling water from the stove and being scalded; your were disobedient to his orders to leave it alone, is your father guilty because you disobeyed him?

          • Octoberfurst

            I knew you would completely avoid the question. How come you can’t answer it? All you just did was start accusing me of “hating God” and deserving hell, blahh, blahh, blahh.
            I’m talking about God COMMANDING that his people do such things. You go on and on about “free will” and given analogies that have NOTHING to do with the question—i.e. saying things like “Can a father stop his son from touching a pot of boiling water on the stove?”
            Let’s try this again shall we and please try to answer the question without going into a rant about how “Godless” I am. (Oh FYI I happen to be a Christian.)
            Question one– why did children deserve to be massacred?
            Question two– Why did God tell the Israelites to keep young girls as sex slaves?
            Question three–Why do you consider this moral?

          • Neiman

            When you question the morality of God, then you are for all intent and purposes, a practical atheist. If you were a Christian, you would know God is holy and there is no sin in Him. When you say that you are embarrassed by what God did, you show you have not His Spirit and thereby seem to be a Christian In Name Only.

            I answered your question, there are no short or easy answers, I am not called to defend God, nor do I know His mind.

            In these passages: Israel was without any Judge and were not submitting to God, they made a pretense of seeking His Will, but on their own they made some just stupid and some horrific decisions, just as men make today when they do not seek God. Israel’s leaders for several reasons decided what to do about the Tribe of Benjamin, what to do about their enemies and even other cities/tribes in Israel that would not go to war with them against their enemies, enemies that were seeking to destroy Israel. It was the Israeli leaders that decided to create a charade wherein Benjamin’ s men could get wives, not slaves, while not violating their own previous oaths. It was they that ordered the killing of men, women and children, to make an utter devastation of their enemies and cause other people to flee before them as the advanced to take the land God gave them. It was the Israelites that ordered their men not to kill virgins, but take them captive.

            So, while God through His Prophets did order whole people destroyed, men, women and children.While He directly destroyed whole cities like Sodom, while He says He will destroy most of this wicked world during the Great Tribulation; In this case, while not seeking God’s Will, it was the Israeli leaders that directed these events.

            If we believe in God, if we have His Spirit we know that God will always do right, that He will do Justice and we cannot trust in our own judgments..

          • Wade Sproviero

            “Each person should remain in the situation they were in when God called them. Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave.”

            1 Corinthians 7:20-22

            “There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
            Galatians 3:28
            “Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.” Matthew 22:29

            I think God’s Word speaks for itself on this one. You just might want to take a peak at Romans, chapter 1 as well…

          • YouNoWho

            Oh brother. You people slay me. Do you honestly think throwing your religious text at me is going to accomplish something? You are sooooo out of touch.

          • Elsie

            I’m new to this thread, but I’d like to jump in here for a quick post. I’m hoping that everyone will read this, because it’s meant for everyone, not just YouNoWho. I’m a Christian. I personally don’t think that God condones homosexuality. However, I KNOW He does not hate homosexuals!! YouNoWho, I would like to be able to sit down and have a respectful conversation with you. I have never had a deep conversation with a gay person. I would like to try to understand. And I would like for you to try to understand me, too. If we ended the conversation, agreeing to disagree, then I would love to end it with a hug and a prayer. I would want you to have been shown the love of a loving God through me. And I would want to have been shown some love from you, too. We don’t have to fight about this! Whatever the truth is, it will come out when Jesus returns. Until then, we need to treat each other kindly and respectfully. No one is going to get anywhere without showing respect. EVERYONE deserves to be shown respect. Please don’t think I’m just speaking to you here. These posts seem to be getting angrier and angrier and not one has done anything to persuade the other. It’s pointless to argue about this subject. I want you to know that, even though I don’t share your beliefs on this subject, I respect you as a person. And I want you to know that you are loved beyond measure by a most loving God. If you walk away with nothing more than that knowledge, this will have been a good day.

          • YouNoWho

            I compliment your intentions. And I laud your apparent willingness and desire (which I will take at face value) to learn more about the issues from the other person’s perspective.

            But let me say something that may at first blush seem really arrogant—but it’s not, it’s just the facts. And by “you” I don’t mean just you personally, I mean the broader “you.” Here it is….

            I’ve been where you are. Been there (for most of my life), done that (a lot). But you (most Christians who spar with me here) have never been where I’m at. So on this topic, I am extremely well-versed and knowledgable on BOTH sides of the issue, whereas most people on here are well acquainted with only one side (and some not so well at that, given how obvious it is that many don’t really know much about what’s actually in—or not in—the Bible. It is not arrogance but fact: I could make the religious argument on here better than most! Been there, done that. I was as devout a Christian minister as they come. And anybody who lugs out the talking point of “Well, obviously you didn’t really KNOW the Savior….” can stuff it! It’s a tired and meaningless face-saving, self-serving, disingenuous come-back. The truth is, I know both sides. So to be candid, it is really almost humorous to me that people respond to me not with questions but Bible verses and sermons, like suddenly they are the Chosen One whom God will use to finally get through to me. I’ve studied it for a lifetime. I reject it. And I could cite a long list of reasons why. And at least five of those reasons, maybe even a dozen, would be reasons any one of which, alone, would cause me to put Christianity in the same category as all of the other “mystery religions” out of which it sprang.

            I hope I haven’t totally angered you because here’s my answer to your stated desire to know a gay person. When I was in college and then later in grad school (working on a Master of Divinity), there was not a single book on homosexuality (that I have been able to find), save one silly book that was supposedly an expose of “the gay lifestyle,” whatever that means. Certainly there was no book on the Bible and homosexuality. Today, however, there are literally hundreds, if not thousands. And there’s the internet. And there’s your friends and acquaintances who, if none are gay themselves, have loved ones who are. There are countless resources, easily googled. But if you really want to learn something, then for THIS part of your study, ignore anything that is anti-gay. It is pointless to read a Christian book that says gays are sinners. You already know that point of view! Read books by Christians who take the opposite view. Doesn’t mean you have to agree in the end, it just means you have an interest in being well informed. And if you should one day decide that God must surely be more pleased when gay people are able to live fulfilling, love-filled, joyful Christian lives, rather than if they were alone and lonely all their lives, then trust me, the Bible will pose no problem for you, just as it already poses no problem for you when it supports slavery and assigns a subservient role to women. After all, it poses no problem on this topic for millions of Christians and even entire denominations. Those are not bad people. They are Christians too. And devoted. Listen to them for a change. THEN make up your mind.

          • Elsie

            OK. That’s fair. Thanks for responding to my post. I appreciate that you took time to explain a bit and steer me in a direction that may help me understand a little better. I intend to do what you suggest. I do wish you happiness, YouNoWho. And peace.

          • YouNoWho

            And blessings of peace and happiness to you as well!

          • Brenda More

            I think I am in a position to say a few things and not be considered prejudice as my thoughts are based on experience.

            We Christians are called to not judge look at Matthew 7:1-5. I will not put the scripture here because I want you to look it up yourself :). We are called to be Christ like to follow Christ’s example. In Matthew 9:12 Jesus states what he has come for. Read Matthew 9:35- 38. That tells me that I am to go in to the field (world). and do as Jesus did. Matthew 10:7 tells me what I am to go and proclaim it also says “freely you have received; freely give. Matthew 10:22 also says that we will be hated by everyone because of Jesus. But we are to stand firm. Matthew 10:16:32 tells me what I am to do, warns me, tells me not to fear spreading the word. Yes there are people who may call themselves Christians who condemns homosexuals, drunks, addicts and the list goes on. BUT real Christians are called not to judge but to GO proclaim the good news!! The good news is that through God all things are possible. That Jesus paid the price or attoned for our sins.

          • Neiman

            While I agree with most of what you have to say, there is a place for righteous judgment in God’s Word: http://www.gotquestions.org/do-not-judge.html

          • ogail

            I choose to address you as “sir” to add value to your point of view. your expression tells me that you are not a christian and do not believe in God or even the word of God and therefore you are not authentic to define the word of God or tell people what the bible says (its above your level until you receive salvation by the grace of the lord Jesus Christ). I will therefore not west time clearing the mess you are expressing in regards to the content of the word of God. If you wish then you need to be helped to learn what the bible rely say on the subject that you are talking about (slavery, equality etc).

            Matching straight to your point, speaking ill about gay lifestyle is not the same as hatting “gay people”. what we are expressing here is that gay lifestyle does not express moral value its out of question of virtue. even if you do not believe in God you should be able to adhere to the principle of virtue. Gay lifestyle is just like learning how to abuse drag, smoke, commit crime etc and when it gets hold of you, quitting becomes a problem. you may become one through difficulties but now if you are in the system you became a slave to it and you will have no option other than defending it by all means. this behavior can be learned when you get exposed to gay people, listens to them or watch materials that is associated with gay lifestyle but to come out you need some one called JESUS CHRIST who is strong enough to break every chain of captivities

          • ogail

            brother you do not wanna be sorry the word of God is yes and A-men and it will never go back void. God bless you

          • Neiman

            Thank you for your kindness. I have no desire to offend anyone, I love the lost and that includes homosexuals; yet, as painful as it is to feel the hate of the world and be attacked so often, what else can I do if I believe I am contending for lost souls and want to honor Christ?

          • Neiman

            Thank you for your kindness. I have no desire to offend anyone, I love the lost and that includes homosexuals; yet, as painful as it is to feel the hate of the world and be attacked so often, what else can I do if I believe I am contending for lost souls and want to honor Christ?

          • jmichael39

            I understand your disdain for the comparison. But understand that sin is sin. No matter what the sin is, it does the same thing to a person…it keeps them from God. Just because our society views rape as a crime, but not homosexuality, doesn’t make either one worse than the other in the scheme of things in the eyes of God. Look at the this way, if I asked you what the greatest sin is, you might say rape or murder or some other horrendous act. But, would it not make logical sense that the greatest sin would be a violation of the greatest commandment? Do you know what God said that is? Forgive me if I’m assuming you actually care what God says. I’m just tired of coming to a Christ-centered site and assuming that half the people posting there don’t even believe in the existence of God.

          • Brittany Imler

            There is no victim in homosexuality. It is blowing my mind to hear the two compared. Mutual love should not be put in the same category as rape or murder. I am not interested in completing the entire bible. I’ve started reading it a few times from the beginning but when one of the first “stories” is about two daughters getting their father drunk and having sex with him, I felt it was time to stop. I’d be way more moved if God told me this instead of a book written by a bunch of people who expect me to believe they talked to God and he told them to “jot that down real quick.”

          • jmichael39

            Do you read Russian or Ancient Greek? I don’t….well, I do read Ancient Greek, but that’s a different story. Trying to read the Bible when you don’t speak the language of its Author…is like trying to read Chekov’s Cherry Orchard in its original language or Homer’s Iliad in Greek. If you don’t know the language, you can’t be expected to understand it. Don’t take my word for it…try reading The Iliad in Greek. Funny thing is that even reading The Iliad in English is a royal pain in the ass…primarily because I had no idea of the culture and history the first time I read it.
            It does make me wonder why in the world you come to a site like this in the first place.

          • Brittany Imler

            I came to this site because a “friend” shared a story titled “Former Lesbian Turned Christian” which, in my opinion, is ridiculously offensive. As if it is one or the other.

          • jmichael39

            why is that offensive… THAT is offensive. You don’t think a person can be changed by the power of God in their life? Sad

          • Brittany Imler

            Because I do not believe they need to be changed!! That is the huuuuge difference and the reason I would consider it offensive.

          • jmichael39

            that’s downright self-deifying of you to say that. First, you’re not her. If SHE came to the conclusion she needed to change, who the hell are you to be offended by that decision? And second, if her God wants her to change, again, who the hell are you to overrule her on this? Gees!!

          • Brittany Imler

            Exactly. It’s nearly impossible to interpret . Especially when it is a bunch of different people who wrote in it their ‘encounters’ with God. But I am expected to understand this book fully and clearly see that God told y’all that if you loved someone then you will be punished.

          • jmichael39

            Not at all, if you speak the language of God…which anyone who is filled with His Holy Spirit does.

          • Pamela Hankins

            I totally agree! We need to be researching the original languages. This is key to a proper understanding of Scripture! There are lexicons online…Strong’s Concordance:
            http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html and also, the Companion Bible (also on line) with it’s 198 Appendices is a very valuable resource.

          • jmichael39

            While I agree with your statement, Pamela (having studied both Greek and Hebrew), I was actually referring to the Bible’s original language…God’s language….the language translated by only the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.

          • Pamela Hankins

            Amen!!! That is even more important…I totally agree. Our Spirit will bear witness with it (and be repelled when it is mis-spoken).

          • Pamela Hankins

            That’s even better…Amen! Our spirit bears witness (or else is repelled by its misuse). Thank you! You are referring to what I call and intimacy with God that makes ALL the difference. You can study til you’re blue in the face and it’ll get you nowhere without His revelation. Case in point…Paul. He was a scholar, having set at the feet of Gamaliel, but until the Lord got a hold of him, he could NOT get it! This is the key to all the confusion. 1 Corinthians 12:12-14, “For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many”. And that ‘one Spirit’ is the interpreter of the Word to our souls.1 Corinthians 2:12, “Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God”. Romans 8:9, “…Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his”.

          • Mike

            So if your God is the one true God and this God wanted everyone to know the Bible… Why did it need to be translated? Why wouldn’t humans be created with the capacity to know the language of God? Also, if Aramaic is the language of God, how do you think he can hear your prayers if he does not speak English?!….. ooooohhh logic bomb!

          • Pamela Hankins

            No victim? What about the one bending over? The medical evidence is overwhelming…HIV? Colon cancer? Not to mention the myriad of other medical problems. A sister, lesbian, has had operations that I didn’t even know existed…plus her partner realized her mistake and left what had been a long term relationship. No one talks about the victim in the male homosexual relationship, everyone sweeps what happens in the actual encounter under the rug. And from what I’ve read, homosexual encounters perpetrate themselves by the victimization of young children. Any sexual encounter when very young will have leave a lasting scar on any one, male or female. People tend to be titillated by what happened to them and from there become ensnared in the very behavior perpetrated upon them. I know whereof I speak, having struggled with such an encounter at 10, not with an adult either. Why do you fight against the very One who can wipe away all the mistakes and enable you to start again? and why do you deprive others of that privilege?

          • Brittany Imler

            HIV and colon cancer could happen to any person though. (I couldn’t possibly know this) but even if it is more common, that is their decision and in no way effects you. For you to make another human being feel unwelcome or unwanted is hateful and just plain mean. I would hope God would not want that for any of his children. And anyone who dares to make someone feel that way, THEY should be punished and THEY should be the one begging for forgiveness.

          • Lydia Satterfield

            If I am reading this right, and if I am not please correct me, you do not believe anyone should disapprove or call out homosexuals because it does not affect anyone else but themselves and by doing so one is trying “to make another human being feel unwelcome or unwanted” and “is hateful and just plain mean.” But try to look at it from this angle (as absurd as you may think it). If, for whatever reason, (Use your imagination) you noticed someone was about to drink something full of poison, while it does not affect you, do you not feel compelled to let that person know and prevent them from drinking the poison? Or do you keep quiet and allow them to drink the poison insisting to yourself that it is not your problem and if it makes them happy who are you to tell them otherwise?

            NOW MY REASON FOR POSTING THIS IS NOT TO TAKE A STANCE ON HOMOSEXUALITY SO PLEASE DON’T COME CRYING TO ME ABOUT HOW THE TWO SCENARIOS ARE DIFFERENT. IF IT MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER I’LL EVEN SAY IT IS NOT A LIFE THREATENING POISON (THOUGH SOME MAY ARGUE THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS AN ETERNAL LIFE THREATENING POISON) JUST SOMETHING THAT MAKES ONE INCREDIBLY SICK.

            my whole point of this particular post is so that you can see where someone who disagrees with homosexuality is coming from.

            PS: Reminder: This post ≠ to homosexuality stance

            This post = to a possible pov from christians

          • Brittany Imler

            That is yet another ridiculous comparison. Being gay and drinking poison are very different.

          • Lydia Satterfield

            Did you not see my disclaimer? here it is again just in case you missed it “NOW MY REASON FOR POSTING THIS IS NOT TO TAKE A STANCE ON HOMOSEXUALITY SO PLEASE DON’T COME CRYING TO ME ABOUT HOW THE TWO SCENARIOS ARE DIFFERENT.” My point was so that you could see why christians don’t keep to themselves and why they feel it is important to let people know why they disagree. It was so that YOU could see where they are coming from and that it might…. just might… be more than someone trying to, as you put it, “make another human being feel unwelcome or unwanted is hateful and just plain mean.” I am just trying to prove, WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT, that just because some one does not believe in homosexuality does not mean they are attacking someone who is.

          • Arrie

            Please look up Moabites on Google and also Ammonites, where they come from and what is the significance, especially in relation to Israel. Maybe you will feel different afterwards about this part with the two daughters getting their father drunk for offspring.
            Sad to say, but the Word of God is much greater than any of us, and as such trying to box it in accordance with our feelings just will not do.

          • Peter

            Homosexuals lie to everyone, including themselves…. that is evil

          • Brittany Imler

            You say they lie but I do not see how you could possibly know that or why you would think that. Who told you that?

          • Scott S.
          • jennylynn

            The most loving thing a person can do is warn a person of their destructive behavior/sin and snatch them from the fire. Patting people on the back as they journey to hell is very hateful and there is no love in him. God is holy, holy, holy, and He cannot go against His character and tolerate any sin. It is all abominable in His eyes and the wages of sin is death. Romans
            6:23. Unless you repent and turn from sin and put on the righteousness of Christ you will perish eternally forever. Not worth the short time on earth to engage our sinful desires.

            “I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Luke 13:3

          • ogail

            Did you say “oh my God” in support of gay? which “God” are you referring to? may be you don’t mean God but rather “god” right? as a matter of fact, comparing gay to rapists is even elevating them. the act is worse than that. Talking about hell, i think you don’t read your bible do you? you could have known that gay have their destiny in hell of fire. i cor 6:9- Gal 5:22- read also Rom 1:27 “And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet”. so you can still make a choice, are you for God or for the lust of your flesh? i would that you choose God and turn away from sin. if you call yourself a christian then live to that standard and hate sin and if this is the case, then being a gay is never an option but what to condemn in the strongest way possible.
            Don’t be offended when some one condemns gay lifestyle because its from the devil but you are wonderfully and fearfully created by God to give him a Glory you don’t have to bend low to become a gay. Gay life is a choice no one should make you think its natural. God never created a gay but people make themselves to become gays.

        • YouNoWho

          Neiman: How ridiculous. First, nobody is saying it’s genetic. They are saying it is biological. There’s a difference. Read a book or three.

          Second, so what if science proved pedophilia was genetic, or if it and homosexuality were caused in the same identical manner? SO WHAT? You are supremely disingenuous to suggest that society is obligated to criminalize or condone either one or the other, alike. If you can’t tell the difference between (a) two individuals being in love, and caring for each other, and living wholesome, positive, productive lives together and (b) people hurting children, then I pity you. Normal adults don’t even have to think about it to know one is horribly wrong and the other is not (and is in fact a good thing, the difference between a lifetime of love and a lifetime of loneliness).

          Third, your last paragraph is equally ridiculous. Let me get this straight: The reason the scientific consensus TODAY is overwhelmingly positive toward homosexuality not being an illness, crime or “sin” is because 50 years ago some health professionals were duped or threatened. Grow up.

          • Neiman

            If it is not a choice, it is genetic, being an immutable characteristic. If it is biologic, it is something brought about by environment, by nurturing, etc and so then it is a matter of choice, as there is no underlying genetic cause, thus it can be changed. So, please make up your mind, if it is biologic, it is not immutable and can be cured. If it is genetic it is immutable and cannot be changed.

            If either by genetics or biology, it is a destructive behavior, we expect virtually all other categories of such aberrant conduct to be resisted for the good of the person, those directly impacted by their conduct and society. Due to many factors the homosexual lifestyle is wholly destructive, it is based mostly on lusts, not love, as the homosexual community is incredibly promiscuous; and, they are not content to keep their conduct private, but must flaunt it and force society to approve of that which is wholly unnatural and grossly immoral.

            From the dawn of man, with only a few rare exceptions, homosexuality has always been viewed, in every time, geographic setting and society as being abnormal, unnatural, a deviance from the natural course of human sexual relations, being contrary to nature and certainly contrary to God’s creative design. It has always been an offense to man and God; that is, until the world and even America, decided that God had no role in our lives as a people, so since the sexual revolution, little by little the scientific community was forced by a terrible sense of political correctness to either submit to liberal, falsely tolerant political correctness or lose their careers. As most professionals not only did not want to lose their careers, but prospering was more important to them than morality or common sense, they knuckled under and changed the truth into a lie.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Still making friends with your hateful posts I see. Carry on. Maybe someone else will get through to you, I haven’t been able to.

          • Scott S.

            No where does he state he hates anyone. That’s just the homosexual game you play of dissing anyone you don’t agree with. As you say…carry on…maybe one day you’ll see through the lies of that lifestyle….then again maybe not…but hopefully before it’s too late….

          • BeWhoYouAre

            You haven’t been following his other conversations then. I don’t play “homosexual games”…I know they have lives like you or I, and not “lifestyles”.

          • YouNoWho

            Neiman, I got just barely past your first paragraph, and that’s it. Won’t read further. You are not worthy of honest, adult conversation about this because you are so obviously ill-informed AND prejudiced. You don’t know what you’re talking about! Read some frickin’ BOOKS on the topic, and I don’t mean the ones published by your church.

            Get back to us when you can discuss these issues like an educated adult, and without injecting your religious superstitions and beliefs. (Do in your religious circles whatever you want, no one gives a rat’s ass, if you don’t attempt to spread it into the general public.)

            I suppose it is necessary to point this out to you, since you really seem to have trouble “getting it”: I am NOT saying you need to agree with me to be a worthy partner in discussion. I’m saying it is your lack of familiarity with the issues, together with your obvious biases (like announcing that homosexuality is “destructive”) that makes you an unworthy participant at this time.

          • Neiman

            Like all liberals and atheists, I see you hate that 1st Amendment that guarantees me the right to spread my message to the general public. Too bad you hate America.

            I have no problem with your ignoring me, I have told you the truth based on facts, my conscience is clear. Your assessment of my intellectual capabilities and familiarity with the subject is just your subjective, biased opinion, not fact.

          • YouNoWho

            You’re right. So bright, intelligent and perceptive. All liberals and atheists hate America and hate the first amendment. We also hate our mothers and apple pie. Grow up. You are embarrassing yourself.

            You might start by knocking this into your head—do whatever it takes to comprehend this: NO ONE is suggesting you don’t have a right to “spread your message to the general public.” NO ONE!

            Got it?

            You seem to be imagining that your right to say something protects your words from being subjected to ridicule if that’s what they deserve. All opinions are not equal. Opinions, thoughts, ideas have to EARN their respect.

            But yeah, you’re right, liberals and atheists are trash, they hate every thing and everybody. If only they could be just like YOU!

          • Neiman

            Your words – “Do in your religious circles whatever you want, no one gives a rat’s ass, if you don’t attempt to spread it into the general public.”

            You stand convicted!

          • Peter

            “Dr. Francis S. Collins, head of the Human Genome Project, along with his team of over 150 of the top geneticists in the world, who sequenced and decoded the human genome, have said, that there is NO gay gene.” Proven Scientific fact, not supposition

          • Peter

            “People Are Not Born Gay, Affirms Royal College of Psychiatrists” Stop living in denial!

          • Peter

            The APA (American Psychological Association) explicitly stated “there are no scientific findings that a person is born homosexual”.

          • wandakate

            PETER: It is a choice that they make one way or the other. GOD only created one or the other. Either a man or a woman, a male or a female that’s it, there is no other. There is NO proof so far that anything exist. It’s the lust of the flesh and satan’s influence on them to get them to sin. GOD says it’s “sin” and satan knows that and does all within his power to get them to go against what GOD wants.

          • YouNoWho

            Nobody is trying to say there are! Your comment proves nothing, really, because no one knows exactly what causes people to be straight OR gay. What CAN be said, because it is now clear, is that it’s BIOLOGICAL, thus not a choice. (Not that whether it’s a choice should make any difference in a free country, but that’s another subject.) Many may, in common vernacular, say “I was born this way,” but then they aren’t writing a scientific essay. They are speaking in a manner of “for all practical purposes.” A child’s development is not complete in the womb. Things continue to develop during the days, weeks and months after birth. Many brown-eyed persons are not born that way either; their eyes change shortly after birth; but for all practical purposes, they were “born that way.” You are being DISINGENUOUS to present your statement as if it’s making some kind of profound argument.

            Not only that, I think you could be spreading a lie, either directly or by quoting out of context. Please provide the REFERENCE for this quote. I don’t mean for you to cite somebody else claiming the APA said that, I mean show me the APA document in which they state it. Can you do that? I’m confident that your statement, standing alone, is intended to misrepresent their message. You want it to imply sexual orientation is is choice. I’m sure they do NOT think or suggest that.

          • Scott S.

            Man where have you been for the last 30 years? The homosexual camp has constantly tried and failed to tie their deviant behavior to anything that makes it look as though it’s beyond their control. It’s the great lie of that lifestyle. They even lie about the public acceptance of their lifestyle. The vast majority of this world does not accept or condone homosexuality…talk to enough people and you will find this out….

            You make all this noise about others in this thread spewing absurd information and yet you do it just as much.

          • YouNoWho

            Oh please. Get real.

          • Arrie

            So you are 100% sure the frickin’ books you have read is 100% correct? Please provide us the reference of such amazing books – I would also like to investigate such facts to enjoy this elevated enlightenment such as you have.

          • YouNoWho

            I return to this thread only to respond to very specific, thoughtful questions. Your shameful, absurdly disingenuous rudeness deserves no response.

          • Arrie

            Sorry for the rudeness. Did you notice I have used some of your posting style here also – just to prove something. If unsure, please check some of your earlier posts.
            You use such big words in your reply, I actually feel inferior to you – only joking, but you have to ask yourself if this is your objective.
            I maintain, these many books you base your 100% correct theories on my not be 100% correct, same thing you and many others are trying to in vain do with the Holy Bible – to bring the Word of God in question.
            I know I have offended you, and I’m fine with it, what you do with the offence will tell you something about yourself.

          • YouNoWho

            Nothing is 100% correct; don’t be disingenuous and imply I said what I didn’t. As for “what I’m trying to do with the Bible,” I simply (1) point out what’s IN it, which most Christians simply do not realize, and (2) point out well-accepted Christian points of view OTHER THAN the fundamentalist point of view. I am not “trying in vain.” My posts do exactly those two things. I have not outlined any interpretation that is not held already by millions of devoted Christians.

            My rejection of the Bible as the perfect revelation of a perfect god is not an interpretation of the Bible, it is a conclusion about the authenticity of the Bible. What I have done on here is to call attention to how many devout Christians interpret those texts. And one of the things an honest person has to keep in mind is that there are literally hundreds of direct contradictions in the Bible, and because of that, interpretation is require. Anybody who claims to strictly follow a “thus saith the Lord” is either being dishonest OR simply does not understand that it is literally impossible to live by contradictory biblical statements.

            These contradictions are why there are 41,000 different Christian sects & denominations—interpretation is required, and there are different ways of interpreting. All I ask is that when millions of people’s lives are at issue, that a person be AWARE of the more compassionate interpretations too, not just the more mean-spirited interpretation. I really don’t care what a person concludes about it, IF they can demonstrate that they UNDERSTAND the position they are rejecting. And they can’t understand it just by thinking off the top of their heads (contrary to that being what most seem to think!). Being informed requires an investment of time and energy and emotion. Work, in other words.

            In my opinion, anyone who hasn’t done the work of becoming well informed on a controversial, complex issue will have little if anything to offer in the discussion. This is true because the masses already KNOW the issue in terms of what just pops into the heads of the masses, based on tradition, long-taught perspectives, and a natural inclination against that which we don’t personally like, prefer, understand or feel comfortable with.

            Anyway, I understand you are fine with being offensive. But talking to me as if you are my mother doesn’t impress me much.

            I fell off the wagon in responding to you again. And by looking at your next post, your fussing about the 41,000, you really are not a seeker, just one more fundamentalist who is proud to be narrow-minded, yet offended if an outsider acknowledges it. All you have to do is read Wikipedia for a list of hundreds of those denominations and sects. You sound like you are asking me to do your homework for you; but you’re not. It is obvious by your other post that you just want to fuss about it, not learn something. Do not expect further replies.

          • Arrie

            Sadly for you, I have not been offended by anything you have said, same old same old when compared to many debates with atheists.
            I am questioning you for a simply reason, because I believe you are spreading vile regarding what many people hold dear, the Word of God, that which is Holy and true.
            AS for the 100’s of contradictions, those have already been debunked – time for your homework.
            But as you said – no further replies.

        • Kozyavin

          Your argument is flawed. Read this: https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/documents/Logic_Fallacies_List.pdf

          It’s a pdf of logical fallacies. Also, it would be beneficial if you cited sources for your speculative claims, and didn’t base them from an emotional root.

          Best of luck.

        • SFBruce

          I never claimed that sexual orientation is completely genetically determined, but that certainly doesn’t mean it’s chosen. Did you, at some point in your life, consider all the possibilities (gay, straight and bi) and decide, I think I’ll be straight. That’s just not it works.

          • Neiman

            Let me put it this way – if it is genetic or a result of biology and/or partially environmental; no matter the underlying cause of those lusts, like any other lust it can be resisted, it is always a choice to act out on those lusts or not. A straight man may have incredibly strong sexual lusts, having them from a very early age that drives him to be a most prolific fornicator and if married a compulsive adulterer; but it is his choice to deal with those lusts and behave as a moral human being by resisting them. The same goes for gay people.

          • SFBruce

            What objective proof do you have a person attracted to the same sex SHOULD resist those urges with another consenting adult?

          • Neiman

            Society generally expects every other destructive lust of to be resisted (or treated) or that those failing should suffer the consequences of their irresponsible actions. All accept gays, because doggonit, that is not the politically correct thing to expect.

      • Brenda More

        I also was a former lesbian as a result of a very abusive childhood. From the age of 12 to 30. I was also addicted to drugs and alcohol. I could not quit even after coming close to death more than once. I cried out to God to remove my addictions in 1993. 🙂 I DID NOT mean my relationship with women! From that day till now I have had no drink or drug. I am also HAPPY to say that God delivered me from homosexuality that year as well!!
        I have been married for 19 years and have 4 awesome children!

        • wandakate

          BRENDA MORE: CONGRATULATIONS!!! Isn’t GOD awesome. A husband now and 4 kids, wonderful. Just goes to show that if someone wants to get out of that lifestyle they can and they will with GOD’s help.

        • SFBruce

          I’m glad you’ve faced your drug and alcohol addictions, and that you’re happy with your life and family. You’re probably aware that most people who try to change from gay to straight don’t succeed in that effort, and that several leaders of groups claiming to provide treatments have renounced those efforts and apologized for any harm they may have caused. I wish you continued good luck.

          • Neiman

            Too many so-called gays, there is no such thing as being born gay, have been able to change, even if a small percentage of the total, to suggest they cannot change. The idiotic Reparative Therapy was never biblical. Yet, as Brenda shows, by prayer of faith, by God’s mercy, there can be complete deliverance. But, as we can and should expect, most gays enjoy their gay lifestyle and do not want to be delivered and most of them would never turn to God for healing.

          • Brenda More

            With God ALL things are possible!! 🙂

        • ogail

          i am surprise of this notion. who said that sexual orientation is not a choice? that does not make any sense to me. as a matter of fact sexual orientation is what any one chooses to life. choice can either be right or wrong but for this particular matter, its ungodly one and wrong one.

      • Peter

        There is no such thing as sexual orientation, everyone has a sexual preference. Homosexual activists try to con people with that sexual orientation lie. All behavior is a choice

      • Scott S.

        homosexuality is a deviant sexual behavior similar to those practiced by hetero sex addicts. Sexual preference is a choice, and no scientific proof exists otherwise though certain groups sympathetic to homosexuality have published flawed reports in support of it. The homosexual lobby and it’s extremely aggressive tactics placed upon various groups and organizations is the only reason those particular groups and organizations have reluctantly changed their stance on it.

        At the end of the day, it’s wrong, they know deep down it’s wrong or they wouldn’t have tried to hide it (like any other sin), it can’t sustain the species on it’s own as heterosexuality can, it is clearly shown to be unsupported in the Bible. However, just like any other sin, God forgives and will accept those that repent, accept and give up the old life.

        The Enemy will do everything in his power to try to silence, discredit, attack and mock Ms. Perry and her transformation from that lifestyle in order to continue to blind others in that lifestyle and further confuse those youth that are in the same position as she was.

      • DeaconDan

        Sorry Brother. ..homosexuality is an illness brought on by abuse when you’re a child wether your memory of the event (abuse or molestation) is vague or crystal clear it is a tragic illness and the symptoms are compounded by self medications such as alcohol,drugs legal and illegal,
        and the horrible feeling inside you that something is wrong.I know i went down into the pit of the devil’s torture chamber. Then one day i cried out to GOD and He held out his hand, i grabbed it and never looked back Praise Jesus for his intercession with the Father on our behalf. If anyone is struggling with this illness ask God to rescue you. He loves us and you do not have to suffer.

      • Hans Geiger

        Do you think a doctor handed over a just born baby to its mother with the words:”Her is your homosexual son or your lesbian daughter”? You look only for a cheap excuse which makes you not responsible.

    • wandakate

      CAROL CANTELL MOORBY: It also happens with incest and child abuse when the innocence is taken away. Satan comes in to kill, steal, and destroy, but JESUS CHRIST is able to set you free. He came to set the captives free and will do just that. They must confess, repent, and then forsake that “sin”. GOD loves everybody and wants none to perish. Thank GOD she listened to Him when he was nudging at her heart strings and she made the changes that she needed to make in order to get rid of satan and be set free. Homosexuals “ARE NOT” born that way, that is just an excuse they use because they want to handle it and feel accepted. She is just one that has proven them “wrong”.

    • Kozyavin

      This is actually based entirely on testimonial, and therefore inherently flawed in its logic. So…this article wouldn’t even hold up in a highschool psychology class.

    • http://vinimarques.com/ Vini Marques

      You know what’s really a choice? Ignorance.

  • BeWhoYouAre

    “Former lesbian”

    Translation:

    Lesbian.

  • Dead_New_World

    Yep. It’s all true!! Just listen to your heart! You can change if you just convince yourself YOU know GODS will!

    Love, Satan.

  • Brittany Imler

    This is the saddest thing I’ve ever read. To drop who you are for what you think God wants you to be, is pathetic and sheepish. If anything she should be ashamed. Living a lie is not what God wants. You are born gay anything straight. Its not some sinful choice you make.

    • Neiman

      It is a choice, it is conduct and conduct is always a choice. Further, God told His Church that people just like you, not consciously or knowingly, would even infiltrate the Church and insist those things He calls evil are good and those things He calls good are evil, you are fulfilling prophecy about Satan taking control of this wicked world.

      Romans One: “24
      Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

      25
      They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator–who is forever praised. Amen.

      26
      Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.

      27
      In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women
      and were inflamed with lust for one another
      . Men committed indecent acts
      with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their
      perversion.”

      There is no question that all sexual immorality is a sin against God and that includes homosexuality. There is no question that God stands by ready to heal any sinner that repents and turns to Him for His Salvation. The Holy Spirit through Paul spoke of true children of God that were delivered from among others sins, homosexuality. If you deny His Word and encourage people with gay desires to think they can be saved and remain in their homosexual lifestyle/conduct, you will answer for their souls. As for Christians, we love them and call them to repentance, salvation and healing.

      • Brittany Imler

        You sound like someone in a cult. The bible says this and that but God told you nothing. God is not evil. You are evil. And YOU will answer for YOUR soul. “Gay desires”? What about your “straight desires”? Oh but that’s different, right? Because your preacher told you so. Hateful ignorance. People like YOU are the reason there’s so much hate in this world. People like YOU are the reason children are scared to be who they are . And people like YOU will be the ones on “that day” answering for filfthy souls. Because little did you know, this whole time you’ve been living with unjustified hate and God will not appreciate you making one of his children feel the way you do.

        • Neiman

          I expected personal attacks rather than reason and certainly I expected some saccharine sweet approach to God, while forgetting He is also a God of Justice and Wrath.“God’s wrath against sin and disobedience is perfectly justified because His plan for mankind is holy and perfect, just as God Himself is holy and perfect. God provided a way to gain divine favor—repentance—which turns God’s wrath away from the sinner. To reject that perfect plan is to reject God’s love, mercy, grace and favor and incur His righteous wrath.”

          Should the child molester and rapist be afraid to be who they are? All mean should fear God, for God hates sin because sin separates precious souls from His Divine and Holy presence. Did you know that Jesus in His Revelations to John, when speaking to the Churches said that he commended those churches that hated certain sins, because He too hated those sins and among those sins was all sexual immorality and He hated those that led people into sexual immorality while pretending to be part of His Church.

          Jesus said the world would hate Him and His children because He testified against them because all of their works were evil. So all your anger is just what Jesus expects, because rather than show all those that are sexually immoral, like homosexuals that God Loves them and is ready and wants to save and heal them, to deliver them from their sins, you would defy His Word and call that which He calls evil to be good. But, because of a false sense of compassion, you would make them think they can mock God by saying they are saved and that they can just go on committing their sexual immorality, while being part of the Holy Body of Christ, which is a terrible lie that will cost people, precious souls, a chance at healing and eternal life. No, I know that is not in your heart to do, but that is the sure result of your saying homosexuality is not a sin.

          God is Love, His children too love all men, including all homosexuals, but we love them enough to tell them the truth even if they hate us and attack us, because like our Lord we want to see them healed like this young lady and be able to enter into eternity saved. No we do not hate them, we Christians are the only ones that truly love them; but love demands we tell them the truth, even if only a few hear it; while anyone that tells anyone sexually immoral, like homosexuals, they can be saved and not forsake their sins in truth hate them

          • YouNoWho

            Neiman says “Should the child molester and rapist be afraid to be who they are?” What an ignoramus! I mean, really now. What is the limit of some people’s disingenuousness? Wouldn’t it be less embarrassing to just announce you’re not bright enough to handle logic than to demonstrate deliberate disingenuousness? So typical of fundamentalist nut cakes. [The strong language of this reply is employed with deliberation, not flippantly.] I mean, this whole notion of quoting some religion’s ancient text as if everybody who lives in the world of reality should somehow pay attention to it… as if we should all care what someone’s god, angel, sacred ghost or other imaginary supernatural being supposedly says about it.

            And you know what is a total hoot? In this case, the homophobe’s religion is Christianity. And he quote’s that religion’s ancient writings by bronze-age humans like it were “bible” and then on top of that, arrogantly imagines his own interpretation of it to be the correct one. But get this: there are an estimated 41 THOUSAND Christian sects and denominations, making it painfully obvious that Christians cannot agree even among themselves what the heck their god or their “bible” is trying to say!! Yet this guy Neiman, hey, HE has it RIGHT! Big LOL.

          • Neiman

            There is only one Christian Church, it is the Body of Christ, made of millions of individual Christians scattered throughout many of the denominations and sects, but they are all in perfect agreement on the essentials of the faith.

          • Brittany Imler

            But that is the main difference. I (and many other people) do not consider being gay as a sin. It is not a sin ‘looked over’ and ‘accepted’. Because it is not a sin.

          • Neiman

            We all stumble over words, get tangled up and stop communicating.

            In the first place no one is gay, many, too many really, have gay desires; but, they were born heterosexual, we can argue until the cows come home why they have gay desires, but no one is born gay.

            It is when people act out on their gay lusts and engage in homosexual conduct, that it becomes a sin. The Lord tells us, even when in our minds we commit sexual immorality, like adultery, by fantasizing on those immoral desires, before God it is the same thing as if we actually committed those sins.

            There are just too many passages in Scripture which condemn homosexual conduct, which God equates with idolatry, for any honest person to deny it being sin. Further, there is not a single passage in all of Scripture which ever says anything, the least bit, positive about homosexual conduct. Yes I know that people in the gay community have worked hard to try and discount every passage that condemns homosexuality, but as God only approves of sexual conduct within the marriage bed, which only and always means between people of the opposite gender, any other sexual conduct is a sin, be it fornication, adultery or homosexuality. There are some that say that is an argument for gay marriage, because if they are married God would have to approve of their sexual conduct. Yet, God only and always defines marriage as between people of the opposite gender, wherein He says they become one flesh before him.

            So technically just having gay desires is not a sin, but the moment a person either fantasizes or in actuality engages in homosexual conduct it becomes a sin. Thank God, he promises that if we agree with him (repent) and turn to him for his salvation, that he will give us the power to overcome sin in our lives, including homosexual desires.

      • wandakate

        NEIMAN: A person cannot enter the Kingdom of GOD and be a homosexual. NOT possible…JESUS said it was a sin and there will be no sinners in the Kingdom of GOD. They will not enter it. They “must” confess the sin, they “must” repent of the sin, and finally they “must” forsake the sin. IT IS A CHOICE they make…they are NOT born with those desires, they chose it. It’s a combination of satanic influence and the lust of the flesh. It can be as proven in this article overcome. Satan wants to destroy, but JESUS came to set the captives free and He alone is able to do that.

    • YouNoWho

      But didn’t you know? These people’s God is far more pleased when people suffer than when they are joyful. Suffering is a virtue. Lucky for gays, suffering is so easy! And people are always willing to pitch in and help them with it! What a God! Always looking out for the underclass, giving them a little extra boost of suffering. Which is virtuous.

      Sigh.

      • Brittany Imler

        That is one thing I’ve never understood. Can you not put yourself in someone else’s shoes? If you knew so many people would hate you and call you wrong would you ‘choose’ to be gay? Probably not. If we’re going by this book of contradictions, judgement day will be a very confusing day for us all.

    • Gary

      The Bible contradicts you.

      • Brittany Imler

        The bible contradicts itself.

  • Ms j

    PRAISE GOD! REMEMBER YOU WILL BE TALKED ABOUT PERSECUTED, AND EVEN SLANDERED WHEN U WALK WITH JESUS! THAT ENEMY HATES WHEN U WALK WITH GOD!! STAND FIRM GOD’S GOT YOU!!

    • YouNoWho

      YOU FORGOT TO MENTION BUKED. YOU WILL ALSO BE BUKED AND RE-BUKED. DON’T MAKE IT SOUND ANY BETTER THAN IT IS. (Hope she heard that. Had to yell in caps, as it seems by her own post that she may be hard of hearing. I wish she and the others would get it thru their noggins that they wouldn’t be scorned, slandered, persecuted, buked & rebuked if they would just practice their religious notions among themselves instead of forcing them on others and trying to make them the law of the land. Nobody gives a hoot what people believe, it is their behaviors that get people “persecuted.” But misery loves company, so if they can’t be happy just to live their religion, they have to make the rest of us just as miserable. Sigh.)

      • Ms j

        U ain’t seen miserable YET! To each it’s own! CARRY ON!

      • rebeckyboo

        Hi Younowho, I am a Christian and love Jesus very much. I wanted you to know that I read your posts, and I rarely ever post on articles like this. I think I have done it one other time when people where complaining about the homeless instead of helping the poor, like they should. I wanted you to know that I heard what you said about the text, abt ACTS and not someone who IS gay. I can see what you mean. I can see that. I’m not a bible scholar, not going to cIaim my childhood years of Sunday School, years in ministry or a few bible classes I took in college as making me a scholar, it doesnt. I still have a lot to learn. I want to say I think that the fact that the acts are forbidden, to me and in my understanding, make it a sin. Just like many other sins. I do not believe this is a genetic issue and I don’t understand it all but one thing I know is that I can trust Jesus, with my whole life and am willing to give it all up for him. I have sin in my life that I have to deal with all the time. And I know what a thorn in our side our sinful human nature is, we WERE born this way, I know. But I choose to try to fight this fight and not be mastered by sin and be willing to give up all of the things in this life that could entangle me and seperate me from God in the next life. If I just focus on this life and ALL it seems to offer, if I seek to save my life in this life, I will lose it. So I lose my life for Jesus and by that act, he saves me, he rescues me and I love him for it. And I don’t know you but feel to tell you that God sees you, he loves you and he just wants you. All those horrible things you say you know better than God about, yes – those things are there in the bible, no they do not make sense to me either. They don’t. But I am not to question God. I consider myself and all else his Creation and who am I to question his plans. Although I do not understand it totally, I do see a bigger plan throughout the threads of the old testament that helps me understand it a bit better. I wish that we could talk and I’d like to consider those things with you, although I fear I may not “know” as much as you, you may out smart me. 🙂

        “Younowho” I am not angry with you and as a fellow human being on this earth of ours, I have love for you. I heard you when you said you are thirsty for knowledge, I pray that you will grow is wisdom and understanding. My prayer is that it would lead you back to the God you once knew. But if it doesnt, I still sincerly hope and pray for the best for you. For the unloving post on here and for the people who are looking in disgust at others sin unwilling to look at thier own with the same disgust, I am sorry. I am sorry for the sarcasm and critical remarks. I also hope this post can be considered by you as much as I have considered yours. I know it probably won’t change your mind, still wish you the best!! 🙂

        • YouNoWho

          That is one of the kindest posts. Thank you for your good wishes. I’m so happy that you can say you understood what I was trying to say. That is what is important to me. I’m not very bothered by people’s conclusions if they can demonstrate that they at least UNDERSTAND the other perspective. I could preach against homosexuality just as good as anybody on here, perhaps even better; but few, if any at all, could preach my perspective as well as I can. I used to go to “rap sessions” back in the day. (Didn’t we all?) On various topics. To avoid talking over each other, I always suggested this rule, which is good for any discussion on any topic, especially where the stakes are considered to be high:

          Person “A” speaks. Before person “B” can speak his piece, he must first re-state what person “A” said, to prove he listened and got the point. Only after person “A” agrees that person “B” understood correctly, can person “B” continue on to make his own point.

          You have followed that rule to some extent in your reply to me. I feel confident that if and when you are able to meet more gay people, and hear enough of their stories, you will perhaps make some adjustments to how you think of the issues.

          Here’s a message to everyone I’ve been dialoging with, and I hope lots of them read this. Maybe I should post it separately as well….

          This has just got to be my last post here. I simply must discipline myself and get through the coming week not looking at ANY web stuff, including Facebook. I have too many pressing things to do and have not disciplined myself enough and now I’m behind. Thank you to everyone who has dialoged with me. I realize I do NOT have the talent of tact, and sometimes when I go back and re-read my stuff, I’m aghast! I never regret my message, but I know I’m not the best for just whipping off messages that get said in the best possible way. And one really doesn’t have time to edit them as one might with a published article.

          By the way, my personal website (not hawking anything), in case anyone wants to visit it, is: http://www.ChicagoLarry.com

          Also, here’s an article I came across just today. It’s about an increasing number of Christian clergy who are becoming atheist and the dilemma they face as a result. No big point here, except that it is a fascinating read. AND I could have been one of the stories! I relate to it, because it is the same as my story. And it is not a story of “backsliding,” but a story of being dedicated to TRUTH as best one can perceive it, and having a commitment to following wherever it leads, even if the news is bad. That link is:
          http://www.alternet.org/belief/major-threat-religion-clergy-people-coming-out-atheists?page=0%2C1&paging=off&current_page=1#bookmark

  • BeWhoYouAre

    I don’t think male and female homosexuality are quite the same, there’s a lot more gray areas in lesbianism and bisexuality is more common. But whatever it is she thinks she’s done, she’s not in any position to speak on behalf of other people.

  • robertzaccour

    We’re all born with a sinful nature and doing good isn’t naturally in us. As children we’re taught to be polite, respectful, to share, and to consider the feelings of others. Just as lying, selfishness, lust, etc. are part of the sinful nature, there are some people that desire homosexuality, and passing it off as acceptable behavior isn’t any more justifiable than the other sinful desires that we are taught to correct among ourselves.

  • robertzaccour

    Here’s a good video for the case for traditional marriage https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvvvK_lcBXI

    • wandakate

      ROBERT: Amazing video and much proof. Disgusting that we are allowing this in our nation. I’m ashamed that this is in the White House. However, judgment day is coming and they will both get what they deserve. They have chosen their path. They will reap what they sow.

      • Brittany Imler

        You will be paying for your hate towards God’s innocent children. They have done nothing wrong. They are filled with love and joy. Meanwhile you are filled with hate and ignorance. They seem like the the people that will be in heaven. Not some hateful woman who can’t see the innocence in what they’re doing. Disgusting? People like you are the ones who make this world so disgusting.

        • wandakate

          BRITTANY IMLER: What on earth are you talking about? My hate, and something about GOD’s innocent children. My ignorance. I have no idea what you are talking about…I was referring to the video about Michelle Obama and the video showing that she is a man and not a woman…It had nothing to do with anything else…

  • Rick Souder

    I gotta poop

  • Nique

    Sure she did…

  • Peter

    Homosexuals are never rational…. their behavior is irrational. They choose same-sex partners even though it’s unnatural, illogical, and irrational. They could choose someone of the opposite sex to love but they don’t because why…. they are irrational. There is nothing rational about homosexuality.

  • Pamela Hankins

    Here’s a little tidbit I thought might be appropriate, “…The endocrine system produces and releases hormones and other products into your bloodstream. The disruption that triclosan has on animals affects ESTROGEN, TESTOSTERONE and THYROID levels. Experts believe women and children are most at risk for potential HORMONE IMBALANCES FROM ANTIBACTERIAL PRODUCTS”. From Natural News, “7 Dangers of Antibacterial Soaps and Cleansers”. This may be part of why we are facing so much gender confusion in the US. http://blogs.naturalnews.com/7-dangers-antibacterial-soaps-cleansers/

  • Mike

    This is the dumbest thing I’ve read in a long time.

  • ‘Scottie Junior

    I’ll give her about 3 years before she back on the “Kat”.

  • Kozyavin

    Evil is rare, but ignorance is rampant. We create monsters in others to avoid the monsters within ourselves.

  • Kozyavin

    Also, I’d like to pose a question. If everyone here, whom claims to know the text, can’t themselves agree on a solid and conjoined argument to present, outside of rampant generalities, then what do you propose is a viable solution? Again, outside of generalities, which would be any statement with an implicit end as opposed to an explicit one.

  • JHilton

    Everyone should stop arguing and just be happy for this girl. She is happy with a family now. This is not worth an argument. She loves God and is following Him by what she feels He is speaking to her. That is beautiful. This is more than head knowledge, this is someone experiencing something beautiful in life, a connection with the Creator. That’s wonderful. No one should be taking offense to this, this is one person sharing their life, and people should appreciate what others feel and believe. That is what makes life beautiful, and God’s love is shown through the different journey’s He takes us to find Him. Also, I don’t know about all of these debates about the legitimacy of the Bible. I am a Religious Scholar at Georgia State University, and the Bible is a pretty legit book. It is a great form of history that has been handed down from centuries and it really hasn’t been messed with like people think. There are alot of messed up stuff in the old testament, but that is because it was dealing with really ancient times. Christians primarily focus on the writings of the new testament, so I am confused why there is so much argument based on the old, unless you are a Jewish individual. The Bible is a collection of books which are believed to be a progressive revelation over the history of man, in particular, the history of the Israelites to the Greco-Roman times. So when you understand the purpose of the writings as an anthropological history of believed revelations from God, one can understand that it does not contain contradiction, just different understandings as time progressed through history. Truly a fascinating book, and one that has impacted many around the world. Anyway… this girl seems like a doll and the petty arguing seems dumb, I am happy for her, God bless her!

  • Juven Ayudtud

    This makes me feel a lot, as if I’ve been doing something wrong, as if my life is a sham. Yet when I look back over my life it was God that gave me the courage to come out of the closet. I was dying inside while being in the church, and truthfully now my life is really good and we are really blessed and I’m very thankful for it. I’ve been with my partner for three years and life is really good. Love really does cover a multitude of sins. I’m happy for her to have found her way in life and I encourage everyone to not allow anyone else to define for them what they ought to be. It could be argued that she serves the wrong God, even argued she’s a part of the wrong denomination of faith. What about those Christians who have been Christian forever and now are gay, even with kids?! No one should take one story and use it as a weapon unless your objective is to heal someone. I think we should definitely look at how one is living. Maybe if she wasn’t all into the drinking and drugging and etc. her story would be different, but that’s not the point anymore. I’m happy for her.

  • Juven Ayudtud

    Yeah, the more I think about this the more I’m thinking this is about drinking and drugging more than being gay. I’m reading the comments and everyone’s looking at it as if her sexuality was the cause of her lifestyle which is absolutely false. I know very productive and healthy gay couples. I don’t wanna use myself as an example but it’s true for me. My life has become better and I’ve become more forgiving and more patient ever since I found love- with my partner.. I’m glad she found her happiness. I’m wary about all of this but I hope she keeps doing what she’s doing. Maybe she can reach those who live that “lifestyle”.

  • http://twitter.com/LWAYNECAMP LWC

    Pray those brown eyes into blue and you’ll have something to talk about.

    Beyond that, your orientation hasn’t changed.

  • Michael R. Hale

    That’s a wonderful Story./

  • kris

    Fellow believers – Why do you argue and debate with YouNoWho? You can see that it is fruitless and just provides him with a platform to spout the words of the true enemy. Please stop responding to him. Homosexuals who are hardened in their sin CRAVE attention! Do not feed their depravity by providing it. You want to do something for him – pray for him cause only YEHOVAH can break up his hardened heart and deliver him from being a mouthpiece of the work of the true enemy. And if you want to write something – just write scripture as the Lord’s Word is powerful by itself. It doesn’t require our words to go with it.

  • railhead

    I have to wonder, did this girl truly get saved? I didn’t see where she said she put her faith and trust in Christ. I see she said “I believe you” but then she also said she knew she had to give up her sinful lifestyle, as if that was what was saving her.

    Jesus saved you, and because of your love for God decided to make some changes in your life, amen! You made some changes to get saved? You’re still lost…….

    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

  • Opus35

    What happens in conversion therapy?

    Because conversion therapy is not a mainstream psychological treatment, there are no professional standards or guidelines for how it is conducted. Early treatments in the 1960s and 70s included aversion therapy, such as shocking patients or giving them nausea-inducing drugs while showing them same-sex erotica, according to a 2004 article in the British Medical Journal.

    Other methods included psychoanalysis or talk therapy, estrogen treatments to reduce libido in men, and even electroconvulsive therapy, in which an electric shock is used to induce a seizure, with side effects such as memory loss.

    More recently, people who have been through conversion therapy report talk therapy that emphasizes pseudoscientific theories, such as the idea that an overbearing mother and a distant father make a child gay. In an 4-2012 essay in The American Prospect, writer Gabriel Arana describes his “ex-gay” therapy experience. His therapist blamed his parents for Arana’s homosexuality, and urged him to distance himself from his female best friends.

    Chaim Levin, one of the men suing Jonah for deceptive practices, says that he quit conversion therapy after his therapist had him strip down and touch himself to “reconnect with his masculinity,” according to the New York Times.

    • railhead

      Then again, some of us vomit without any nausea inducing drugs after seeing same sex erotica…..

      • Opus35

        The obvious question is why are you looking at same sex erotica? You should bring that up to your therapist.

        • railhead

          It was a joke. However, I have seen two guys kissing in public and wanted to vomit. Isn’t that close enough?

          • Opus35

            Joke, sounds like you’re backtracking now. I think you still need to talk to your therapist. Make sure you tell her about the erotic gay sex films you like to watch.

  • Ida Malone Jackson

    To God be the glory!

  • Chandler

    Why couldn’t God love this woman who likes women? Homosexuality is NOT a sin, it is NOT a defect, and it does NOT exclude you from God’s love. God loves all of His children, no matter who they might be attracted to.

    I know what you’re thinking, so let me say this up front: I am a straight woman, I was raised Christian, and I am still a Christian. I just believe that God’s love extends to ALL. Why did this woman feel as if she had to change a part of who she was, because HER SEXUAL ORIENTATION IS WAS, AND STILL IS, A PART OF HER, to become a Christian?

    If this woman decided to walk with Jesus and IN A COMPLETELY UNRELATED TURN OF EVENTS, changed her sexual preference, good for her. But there is ABSOLUTELY no reason that believing in God and being loved by him means you have to walk a straight line (and I mean that as literally as possible). All of you people who exclude homosexuals are the ones who can’t accept them, NOT GOD.

    • Chantelle

      Amen

  • Peter Castle

    What a marvelous witness to God’s awesome power!

    See “Vicky Beeching and the Lesbian Gospel” at http://t.co/CpHQtj5sGN.

  • Arrie

    Beautiful testimony to the glory of our King Yeshua.
    Go share it with everyone Jackie – scoff the sand from your sandals of those who seek to quiet your voice. You are chosen just as Saul from Tarsus was chosen.
    May God bless you every step you take, Amen.

  • Guest

    Wait, this is still

  • Squirrelthief45

    Wait…this is still a thing? Gay individuals being converted by God? People believing that being gay is a choice? I am all for this girl becoming a Christian and finding her faith, woo! But I’m not sure what is more absurd, the fact she claims she “stopped being a lesbian” because of God, or the fact that people believe being gay is a sin and she is a better person now…shame on you if you believe in your heart that being gay is a sin and that gay individuals are people that need special treatment to come over to this apparent “less sin-filled Christian life.” Even this article talks about homosexuality as if it’s this thing that we view at a distance.

    Shame on her and other Christians for thinking is it up to us to judge what is sinful and what is not. Jesus has that part covered so you can focus on other things like loving and supporting each other until the afterlife. What’s the best way to focus on being a good Christian? To remember that Jesus has got our backs in this sinful world and to keep the sin pointing to yourselves. No one lives a sin free life, so stop judging and comparing peoples’ amount of sin because in reality, that’s not up to us anyways.

  • James Grimes

    BeWhoYouAre, in reading your very numerous comments, it is obvious that you are an Atheist, you are gay, you are rude, and you hate anyone who defends the Christian faith. This makes me wonder, WHY ARE YOU HERE?

  • YouNoWho

    Wow… now HERE is a sermon (2-minute excerpt) that all of you on here can really get behind! At least it had this audience roaring….

    http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/davidbadash/pastor_promises_aids_free_world_by_christmas_if_we_execute_the_homos_like_god_recommends

  • MC

    I’m glad that people are leaving the sin and abomination of homosexuality and paving the way for others.

  • T C

    The sad thing is, her testimony is negated by the rap song she sings which is nothing more than pornography. Notice the warning above the video — warning explicit content.

    • Peter Leh

      negated? her salvation does not pass the “TC” test? 🙂

      we all are on a journey. god is the only one to give his stamp of approval.

  • Peter Leh

    it is a changed life. but doubtful she was ever a homosexual.

  • Margaret Morrow

    Praise God that this woman has found her way and is now at peace in her life through the power of the Holy Spirit. God has answered her prayer and taken away the part of her life that was destroying her. I think that is what we all should be seeking. God in his Word tells us not to judge one another….but instead to share the “good news” of the gospel that Christ is the answer to and for our sin.

    Articles like these often make me sad…as they always seem to be more interested in point scoring…trying to prove or disprove what is sinful or who has the fuller knowledge or not of God and His ways. I know that many people disbelieve the bible, and cannot grasp the big picture. However I do believe that this woman knew what was sinful in her life…she knew she was not happy with her life…she was ignoring God and His kingdom. I think that most of us do know what is keeping us from accepting Jesus as our Saviour. Most people know the thing or things in our life that we are hanging on to that is causing us to sin. Many also choose not to give them up….but God gives us this free choice…and we must accept that everyone has it.

    As a Christian, I do not think it is my place to point out to others where they need to change, that is their responsibility! My responsibility is to do what Christ told me…to tell people of His amazing Grace, His love for all mankind, His answer to every sin we have committed or will commit…how He died on the Cross for the sins of the world…then let people make up their own minds. It is our job to tell the Good News and let each individual either accept it or reject it according to his understanding. I only know that if we truly seek Him we will find Him and the rest will fall into place. When God begins speaking to our hearts, then we will know what we should change in our lives…and it is often the beginning of a life-long struggle against many kinds of sin …sins of commission and sins of omission! Homosexual practices is only one of many many things that is condemned by God in the bible. In Galations 5 the list includes “sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God”. Pride…lust…gluttony and greed are also sins before God, but we rarely condemn people for them. We all fall short of the glory of God…and I am afraid that includes ALL Christians! I also believe that Christians are far better spending time examining their own lives and asking the Holy Spirit to help us eradicate the evil and sinful ways that continue to be part of our lives….and to refrain from judging others. Keep it simple as Jesus taught….a new commandment I give unto you..that you love one another as I have loved you….Love God with all your heart, soul and mind….and your neighbour as your self….forgiving each others short comings and differences of opinion….for we ALL need His forgiveness for so much. I believe that is all we should do…and all we are asked to do!

  • LoveasLove

    Wow. This is a super simplistic article. It has no real exploration into why she even thinks she’s no longer a lesbian and it reads like those “Chick” tract cartoons. Actually the title should read “God is made Small if we Believe He cannot accept gay people into heaven” but then again that’s not what this article was going for was it? LOL From her story I got that her problem wasn’t her sexuality it was her selfish and reckless sexual behavior that was her problem. Being gay is not the same as being promiscuous and selfish or a drug user. There are so many gay people who are NOT promiscuous, NOT porn addicts, NOT masturbators, NOT selfish and do NOT use drugs. Know the difference. Overall everyone has a right to survive mentally and emotionally however they see fit so best wishes to her. As long as she is in peace and able to have a relationship with God that makes her feel free then by all means kudos.

  • Azizi

    Bible and AlQuran has many similarities :

    Jesus said in your bible, Mark 12:29-30 hear..o
    israel, the lord our God is one lord. And thou shall love the lord thy God with
    all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind and with all thy
    strength.

    Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned by name in the
    bible : Song of Solomon chapter 5 verse 16:

    “Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh WA
    Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem.”

    Translation:”His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is Mohammad.
    This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.”

    Shall I say that if you believe in 1 god without partners and you believe all prophets include Moses, David, Abraham, Solomon, Jesus and Muhammad. I would like to say that your faith is same as a Muslim..

  • Codrut Nistor

    So let me get the idea… there are absolutely NO religious gay people??? “Former Lesbian Turned Christian” sounds like being a christian and a gay person are not compatible.