‘Every Religious Organization Should Be Worried’: Kentucky Wants Ark Encounter to Hire Non-Christians

HamPETERSBURG, Ky. — Ken Ham, the founder and president of the Kentucky-based ministry Answers in Genesis (AIG), is expressing concern over new demands that the state is requiring of its proposed Ark Encounter, namely its requirement that the ministry not engage in “religious preference” in its hiring—meaning that it can’t refuse applicants simply because they are non-Christians.

“AIG as a religious organization has the legal right to hire people who believe in our Christian faith—which is a right for any religious organization, whether Christian or not,” he said in the four-minute video posted to Facebook on Saturday.

Ham said that the matter became an issue when the state asked his ministry to resubmit its application for a sales tax refund, since the scope for the theme park had changed, and will open its various attractions incrementally instead of simultaneously.

“As we reapplied for the incentive, the state surprised us with two conditions not found anywhere in the law,” he said. “That is, one, we can’t show religious preference in our hiring, and two, we couldn’t share our faith at the ark.”

But Ham found this requirement to be problematic and said that the ministry had been upfront with the state since the beginning that the Ark Encounter is a Christian endeavor.

“I should point out that the state has known all along that our ark project was based on the Bible—it’s always been a religious attraction,” he stated. “Furthermore, when our attorneys met with the state officials earlier this year, we clearly explained the change in ownership structure and the need to preserve our rights as a religious organization, including the importance of not giving up our right to hire employees at the Ark Encounter who share our faith–as allowed by law.”

“In place of any restriction on religious preference in hiring, we agreed to comply all applicable state and federal laws, like those contained in other economic incentive agreements at the state, and the state agreed,” Ham said. “Only after the atheists groups objected and publicly attacked the state’s preliminary approval did the state renege on its commitment.”

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The Australian-born Christian apologist asserted that Kentucky’s requirements of the ministry are unlawful.

“The state’s new conditions are clearly illegal,” Ham declared. “We can cite both federal and state laws that permit religious preference in hiring, like the 1964 Civil Rights Act. That’s why atheists groups can and do discriminate in their hiring.”

He said that all Christian organizations should be concerned about this requirement.

“This employment issue is a mater of great importance not only to every Christian organization, to every church that doesn’t want to give in to demands from the government to hire non-Christians,” he said. “In fact, every religious organization should be worried about what the state of Kentucky is trying to do.”

As previously reported, in 2010, AiG unveiled plans to build a 510-foot long ark in northern Kentucky, just southwest of Cincinnati, Ohio. The project, named the Ark Encounter, will follow the proportions and description of Noah’s Ark in the Book of Genesis. Construction for the theme park is currently underway.

 

 

 


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  • Mike Wallace

    But you do not have a right to tax money, you welfare queen.

    • Mary Martin

      Dipping into the liberal welfare state’s income, how dare he! lol There are plenty of lazy voters who have lived off the gov’t teat for their entire lives, but how dare this working man apply for tax exempt status. Welfare queen? Look in your own backyard, sir, before name calling.

      • Mike Wallace

        Tu quoque argument. What other people supposedly do is irrelevant. I know you are probably a bit too weak-minded to keep up, but no law was broken here by the state. Ken Ham has no right to tax-payer money. If he does not wish to abide by the state’s rules for obtaining it, they are under no obligation to indulge him. This perpetual victim and entitlement-minded simpleton is being intentionally dishonest.

        • Frank

          Actually it is entitled by law, which is why it applied for it. The people working for the state are making up rules that are illegal by law, as the article points out. So you can take your seething hatred of Christians that is misplaced blinded foolery and stew in it and pout but it will still get you nowhere.

          • Mike Wallace

            Uh. No. Tourism board tax incentives are not an entitled by law privilege. If they were, everyone would apply and receive them. You have to meet the criteria necessary to be approved. Contrary to Ken Ham’s compulsive lying, the state did not tell him that they cannot hire based on faith. However, he is not approved for the tax incentives if he does so. I know this is probably hard for you to differentiate, having no experience in law. I assume that is partially why you cower behind the anonymity of the internet.

            What the organization has been denied is taxpayer money, not the right to hire based on faith, unless Ken Ham is trying to argue that the money is more important than his faith. I’d readily agree with that.

          • truthistruth

            Wrong, not tax incentive money or the governments money, just a refund of sales tax money they paid in for which the law allows a refund of that to their organization (all non-profit organizations). Besides, tax money the government gets is confiscatory (i.e. – taken) from people and businesses so it really isn’t their money it is simply “transferred” from the possession of the individual to the government and then either spent by the government (on behalf of the taxpayer) or returned to the one who originally owned it.

          • Mike Wallace

            More of the compulsive lying, eh? The tax incentive involving the sales tax is, in fact, provided by and through Tourism, Arts and Heritage Cabinet. It is, in fact, a tax incentive for tourist attractions. It is a refund of sales tax, money which people expect goes to the government when they pay it. It is not “confiscatory” in that people have the option of not paying it by simply not making the purchase. Of course, technically all money spent is the property of the US Government, based upon how our entire system of currency is based, but given your level of child-like simplicity, I won’t confuse you with the technicalities of economics.

            Stop being such an anti-capitalistic shill and raise the expected money yourselves, rather than shifting the tax incidence to others to pay for all of the government services that you would receive.

          • truthistruth

            Its confiscatory because it is a tax. Given the relative low rate of the sales tax it isn’t much of in incentive. On a large construction project the sales tax could add up but relative to the total project cost it is not significant. What is significant is that the State is using that to impose regulations that heretofore have not applied. Some states exempt the payment and some require payment then refund to the one who paid it in. Accordingly, those who pay in not only know that it goes to the state but that also a portion of that is returned to allowable organizations. I’m not lying, all it seems you can do is insult, provoke, and provide false and misleading information. If you think I am child like then that makes you a moron.

          • Mike Wallace

            18+ millions over ten years is not much of an incentive? Then why apply for it and threaten legal action? The more you post, the less sure I am that you dress yourself in the morning.

            “heretofore have not applied.”

            Uh. Those regulations have always applied and there is a substantial amount of legal precedent for them. Making things up to support your cognitive dissonance is not a valid substitute for reality.

            “If you think I am child like then that makes you a moron.”

            And you finish off your inane ramblings with a simple-minded non sequitur. No wonder you cower behind a fake name. I would be embarrassed too, if I was you.

          • truthistruth

            You, my friend, are hateful, arrogant, and stupid.

          • Mike Wallace

            Another brilliant retort. Come back when you think you can actually address whatIwrote, princess.

  • Gary

    We Christians need to expect hostility from the government. The anti-Christians who run the government are not our friends. One of the problems we face is that the government also controls the courts, which is supposed to be who we can appeal to if our rights are denied. We will have to be a bit more creative given the situation.

    • Kën Shrëk

      Poor persecuted majority.

      • Gary

        I see you have no interest in justice or fairness.

        • Mike Wallace

          The irony is hilarious.

          • Gary

            Do you live in NC?

          • Mike Wallace

            Yep. Not that that matters.

          • Gary

            Where in NC?

          • Mike Wallace

            Looking for a date, honey? I am flattered but you are not my type…

          • Mike Wallace

            Looking for a date? I am flattered but you are not my type.

          • Mike Wallace

            Looking for a date, honey? I am flattered but you are not my type.

    • Peter Leh

      as far as i can tell Ham has done what he needs to adequately protect his organization.

      • Gary

        We’ll see if it is enough.

    • Todd

      moment you ask for handouts, you no longer get to discriminate based off gender, race, sexual orientation, or religion. Because people of every race, gender, sexual orientation, and religion is paying those public funds you’re handing out. You are not allowed to take their money and then say no to them. If ken wants to not take public funds, then he wouldn’t have to face public scrutiny of his hiring from the public.

      • Gary

        I don’t think he is asking for handouts, only for the same rules to apply to his organization that applies to others that are similar.

        • Mike Wallace

          Which includes not discriminating based on faith, race, gender etc.

          • Gary

            Telling someone they cannot decide for themselves who they do business with is making them into slaves.

          • Mike Wallace

            I’m glad to hear that you support gay marriage, but no. That is not a valid description of this issue, no matter how desperately you yearn for treating black people as second class citizens.

          • pax2u

            Gary has said that he supports the fred phelps westboro baptist church because they damn gays (he uses a different word) to hell

            Gary hates blacks, gays, Jews, and Catholics

          • Mike Wallace

            But to deny people the right to conduct business, which is all a marriage contract is, would make him un American and a hypocrite.

          • pax2u

            Gary has already condemned America because this country does not hate those who disagree with his hatred

            very sad, and Nieman has a hatred of the “others”

        • Todd

          Tax exempt is a handout. Because this theme park is very much for profit, to say anything is is to lie. If 18 MILLION in tax breaks for a fantasy theme park is not a handout, then i fear you have no idea what a handout is…..

          And it’s a fantasy theme park with no basis in reality. So If ken ham gets a tax break for this, disneyland gets a tax break.

          • Gary

            One of the reasons there is tax exemption for churches is because the government wants to keep some of them out of politics. Remove their tax exemption, and you have removed their restrictions on politics. So, if you can convince the government to change the law, go ahead.

          • Todd

            It’s a for profit fantasy playground, not a church. Every last cent that goes into that “non-for-profit” goes though his for profit Answers in Genesis company. The same one that’s trying to do the hiring for Ark fantasy land.

            I don’t have to convince the government to change the law, The law says ken ham doesn’t get a tax write off for a theme park. Even if it’s based in a wacky religion with no basis in reality.

          • Gary

            The government has a standard for what qualifies as a non-profit. If they meet the standard, then they are non-profit, even if you don’t like it.

          • Todd

            sigh… But if you take that non-profit status you have to follow rules, like NO DISCRIMINATION. Even if you don’t like it. holy crap we already went over this.

          • Gary

            It is unconstitutional for the government to require people to not discriminate. It violates the first amendment. But anyway, discrimination is very easy to get away with. It just requires a bit of thought on how to do it.

          • http://aebrain.blogspot.com Zoe_Brain

            But if you take that non-profit status you have to follow rules, like NO DISCRIMINATION.

            Nope. That’s a common misconception. Companies can now be both for-profit and religious, if incorporated that way. So have the same immunity, not just from discrimination laws, but *all* laws, that churches do under the Religious Freedom Restoration Act.

            The state must prove not only that they have a *compelling* interest in enforcing a law that goes against some company’s religious convictions, but that the law is the narrowest possible way of satisfying that interest – a task that’s impossible in practice.

            In Discrimination law, there’s already an exemption for religious entities, so they don’t have to rely on the RFRA.

          • Todd

            ya, how about giving a theme park tax exempt status for the profit of ken ham? that sounds very compelling.

            also, being for-profit and religious does not exempt you from discrimination laws.

            kk thanks.

          • http://aebrain.blogspot.com Zoe_Brain

            You have it the wrong way round. The company building the theme park is a for-profit entity. But it’s incorporated (now) as a religious entity, as it’s owned by a non-profit. It thus gets all the exemptions from having to obey laws that churches do, the fact that it’s for-profit is immaterial.

          • Todd

            Sorry, that’s why it’s a problem, and why ken a big scam artist. aside from the whole, selling nonsense to people who don’t like facts.

            it’s very material that it’s for profit. Nevermind that anti discrimination laws apply to everybody.

            why does the janitor have to believe in ken’s nonsense?

        • Todd

          No, he wants an amusement park that he based in religious fantasy to get a tax break like it’s a church. But it’s an amusement park not a church, and it’s all run though ken’s for profit AiG company.

    • Scott Plumer

      Since when is expecting you to obey the law “hostility?”

      • http://www.thebajeezus.com/ The Bajeezus

        Since Christian Dominionism. Laws don’t apply to you if you believe in Jesus, silly.

  • Todd

    Attention Christians! This is not you being attacked or getting hostility from the government, or anybody. Ken Ham has been asking for public funds, but he doesn’t want to have to play by any of the actual rules of getting public funds.

    See, He’ll take money from the whole state, but only hire those who say they are christian. That’s not right. NOW, if he wants to build his little fantasy theme park without asking for tax breaks or public funding, then he can hire whoever he wants.

    But the moment you ask for handouts, you no longer get to discriminate based off gender, race, sexual orientation, or religion. Because people of every race, gender, sexual orientation, and religion is paying those public funds you’re handing out. You are not allowed to take their money and then say no to them.

    Simple as that. Has nothing to do with whatever nonsense ken ham wants to believe.

    • Gary

      I believe no tax funds were used to build the facility. Ham is asking for the same tax situation that is allowed to others legally. He is not asking for anything illegal.

      • Mike Wallace

        Reading is not your strong suit, is it?

      • Todd

        ya, read the story and try again. The whole story is about ham wanting an amusement park taxed like a church. Try to read something about this story that’s not on a site that wants Ken’s story to be true. Facts are fun.

    • truthistruth

      Wrong, not tax incentive money or the governments money, just a refund of sales tax money they paid in for which the law allows a refund of that to their organization (all non-profit organizations). Besides, tax money the government gets is confiscatory (i.e. – taken) from people and businesses so it really isn’t their money it is simply “transferred” from the possession of the individual to the government and then either spent by the government (on behalf of the taxpayer) or returned to the one who originally owned it.

      • Mike Wallace

        Quit copying and pasting the same half-baked dishonesty.

        • truthistruth

          Pfft!!!!

          • Mike Wallace

            Brilliant response.

      • Todd

        lol, right, they get a tax break that others don’t. despite not deserving it.

        You’re actually just explaining the details of how tax breaks work. not saying why this amusement park deserves it.

    • James Grimes

      Which planet are you from? Christians don’t care. It is a Christian display/attraction and Ken can only hire Christians if he wants. Your nonsense isn’t appreciated here.

      • Scott Plumer

        So by your logic, it would be OK for some other business to not hire someone because he was a Christian?

        • Neiman

          Yes, the State may not by any law force Christians to compromise their faith, that is what freedom of expression means. No Christian owned and Christian oriented business, church or school should ever have to apply equal employment laws.

          • Scott Plumer

            Well, the law disagrees with you. Religious discrimination is illegal and immoral. Ham is not being forced to compromise his faith. All that is required of him is that he not discriminate based on religion. If I opened a business and put out a sign that said “Help Wanted No Christians need apply” you’d be OK with that? Somehow I find that hard to believe.

          • Neiman

            No the law does not disagree, try reading the 1st Amendment, the Congress and thus by extension the state is forbidden to pass any laws restricting the freedom of religious expression.

            If a Muslim business, organization or Mosque advertized no Christians need apply, they have that right. If you do it, without being part of an established religion, you would be breaking the law.

          • Todd

            Actually They don’t, just like Christians don’t. That’s you wishing they had things special. But sorry, they have to play by the same rules too.

            It’s up to the person applying for the job to ask them self if their beliefs would line up with the work they have to do. Not the work bending to your faith.

            You want non-for profit status. These are the rules you have to play by. Don’t play by the rules and you don’t get your special tax exempt status.

            OH, and we’re talking about an amusement park, not a church. you want an amusement park to have a church’s tax break? seems strange.

          • Neiman

            Actually, if you were not such a Christian hater, you would have read my post arguing against Christian owned businesses, groups and churches accepting such tax breaks. But, your hate blinds you.

          • Todd

            that’s not how any of this works. If only you had put that anywhere in any conversation with me it would be useful information. So why you seem to think i have to seek out all your writing here is sociopathic in how important you must think yourself to be.

          • Neiman

            Nice avoidance Christian hater.

            Pretty poor apology for being wrong though.

          • Todd

            lol, whatever you want to think there champ. Don’t let facts get in the way of thinking how awesome you are.

          • Zachary Chastain

            Dude, he’s got a great point. You’re nobody. I’ve never heard of you, and everybody and their mother has a blog where they write about stuff they care about. Whatever you’re writing is just more noise. It’s not as though you’re a famous author and we should all be in disbelief that Todd has never read the complete works of “Neiman, from the Internet.”

            How is he supposed to know what you write about if you don’t share it with him. I mean, if you shared the link with him and then he accused you of supporting non-profit benefits for for-profit Christian businesses then that would be one thing, but he’s right you haven’t shared that in this conversation, and as nobody, you have no reasonable expectation that he would have already found it, read it, or heard about it from someone else, because nobody is reading or talking about the stuff you write, because you’re just another nobody.

            Not trying to be insulting, just being realistic, because you seem to have this weird expectation that because you wrote something on the Internet somewhere else, that everyone who you ever talk to will have found and read it of their own accord. You realize that unless you’re already famous, guest writing on a super popular website with broad appeal, or you’re advertising your website that that’s just not how it works, right?

            Anyway, technically you may be right (you never shared the link, so who knows?) about your stance on this issue, but you’re still wrong to assert that he should already know about your stance because you wrote about it once elsewhere on the Internet. That’s absurd. 🙂

          • Gary

            Prove that religious discrimination is immoral. Go ahead, prove it.

          • Todd

            Ok, it’s immoral do discriminate people based on their color, religion, gender, or sexual orientation.

            It’s immoral to discriminate.

            anything else else easy you need spelled out. I get it’s hard to defend morality when you’re holding up a book that says slavery is moral. And killing people because they believe in a slightly different afterlife is ok as well.

            America has higher morals than your god. That’s why we have laws against discrimination. If your god was the loving god most religious folk claim it is, then you’d think they’d love the idea of everybody getting along.

            We don’t get our morality from religion. That’s just a myth religions say to feel better. Morality actually just comes from a sense of not wanting to be a jerk to others. it’s natural.

          • Gary

            I asked you to PROVE that discrimination is immoral. YOU DID NOT. All you did was state your opinion. People are not qualified to define morality. That is solely the right of God to do. If there is no God, as you apparently believe, then there is no such thing as morality, but only opinions. And I am not bound by your opinions.

          • Todd

            prove your god is real. So far you’ve had shown a very poor ability to evaluate evidence.

            No, you’re not. That’s the thing about morality, is that it’s different for different people. Like Christianity, that says it’s actually moral to own slaves…. Odd that your loving god, god the easiest moral question in the history of humanity wrong.

          • Matthew N Renee

            We do not have to prove God is real because we are the proof. God already proved his power by creating us and the entire universe. The Bible talks about how slaves should be treated and that they should be set free but slavery was seen as a less burden then death which was the alternative…. Todd.. Do you feel like a parrot sometimes?

          • Todd

            No, us being here is not proof of god no matter what your preacher told you. The bible is not proof of anything. Somebody told you it was real, and you believed them. Do you believe in a talking snake? if no, then you are not a christian. you are somebody who has taken the bible, and made their own story up. I’m guessing that’s why you were ok with the bible saying how to treat slaves.

            OH ya, did you see what you said about slavery there. “The Bible talks about how slaves should be treated” THAT IS MORALLY WRONG. you don’t see that? why didn’t the bible say “Don’t have slaves. it’s wrong to treat other humans as your property.” maybe you want women to also be treated like property. because the bible was really clear about that. Even saying how much I should charge the rapist of my daughter as I for her into marriage with somebody that raped her.

            I don’t feel like a parrot at all, you’re the one just spouting off things that you’ve been told. Do you feel like you have to resort to name calling rather than using facts or a point?

          • Gary

            If morality is different for different people, as you claim, then it is only opinion. If you are of the opinion that a certain thing is immoral, so what? You have no authority to make such a determination. And no authority to hold anyone accountable to your opinion. Only God has the authority to make moral laws that apply to everyone. And only God has the authority and the ability to hold people accountable for breaking His moral laws.

          • Todd

            Morality existed before your god did.

            But what you’re really saying to me is that the only thing keeping you from turning into a frothing at the mouth killer is your god. That you would have no morals at all if you didn’t have your faith.

            that is terrifying to rational people. Please seek professional help.

          • James Grimes

            Excellent rebuttal, as always.

          • Zachary Chastain

            “People are not qualified to define morality. That is solely the right of God to do.” To be fair, you accused him of stating his opinion and then followed it up with stating your own opinion.

            Just because lots of other people also share your opinion doesn’t make it true. Lots of people used to share the opinion that the Earth was flat, that didn’t make it so.

          • softengine

            Todd, the bible does not say slavery is moral. Slavery, as detailed in the bible, is contextual material. Indeed, it is immoral, but 2000+ years ago, in a vastly different cultural context, it did exist. The bible mentioning its existence is not indicative of a moral stand for or against.

            That said, I do agree with your original comment about the use of tax dollars. I think the same can be said for Boy Scouts (for example). If you want to define your rules based on your beliefs, then do not tap into the tax kitty.

          • Todd

            I’m glad you see it that way. Not everybody in christanity has. as shown by The people defending slavery in america waving a bible over their head.

            But i’m glad you see it differently. That’s the thing about these beliefs. They can and have been bent to whatever somebody wanted them to be.

          • softengine

            “The people defending slavery in america waving a bible over their head.” Hmmm. A little open source intel gathering turns up no evidence to support that claim. Can you provide a source?

            As for Christian beliefs, indeed they can and have been bent to fit the whims of various and sundry people/organizations. I would argue though, that said persons/orgs. are not truly Christian. Example: I can say I’m a BMW, but if I don’t have a rich leather interior, moonroof, and do 0 to 60 in 5 seconds, there’s a good chance I’m not really a BMW. 😉 Just sayin.

          • Todd

            They are just as true of a christian as any other christian. They all follow the same book.

            religion is not a car. Religion is nothing more than a label given to yourself and backed by a book that you say is holy. That’s all it takes.

            kinda makes ya sick when we set the bar so low for getting tax breaks.

          • softengine

            You are absolutely right, Todd. Religion is not a car. I was using allegory to convey a concept (doctrine of conversion). ….and apparently did a poor job of it. My apologies. Enjoy the rest of the holidays!

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “I would argue though, that said persons/orgs. are not truly Christian. ”

            Always an intriguing argument. People who are put forth as being spokespeople for the Christian faith but then are found to commit non-Christian acts, and then labeled as not really being Christian. Very convenient.

            So, tell me, how do we know the “real” Christians from the not real ones?

          • softengine

            You will know them by their fruits. So, the theory is that IF one has truly had a “rebirth”, they will be a “new creature” in the Spirit. What does this mean? Well, I think Paul Washer articulated it probably best in (at least) 2 of his sermons. Both of which are found on YouTube, BTW. The best way I know how to relate this theory to others is by using Westboro Baptist as an example. So, we look at the behavior and language (no, I don’t mean English) that they use in their confrontations and in any (subsequent) interview. Their language is incendiary, conveys malice, anger, bitterness, and discontent. Their behavior is demonstrative of hatred, and again, malice. These are not fruits of the Spirit. Thus, although they say they are Christians, and indeed attend a church, it is apparent that they have not been “reborn”. Only those who have been reborn are truly Christians. IF you are interested, there are a number of good resources for understanding this doctrine (better than I could convey it). Among those are John McArthur, RC Sproul, and again, I think the best – Paul Washer. I’d love to hear back from you after you’ve checked out some of those resources. Take care.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            But all those who have been caught doing things contrary to scripture all said that they had, indeed, been reborn. Therefore, there is really no way prior to the discovery of an act to the contrary, to know who is truly reborn and who is not. Therefore, all are suspect.

          • KeenInsight

            By measuring their behavior by the objective yardstick of biblical teaching.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Until those individuals were found out to not be doing so, everyone thought they were behaving in accordance with biblical teaching, and therefore that they were “real” Christians. Therefore, it can’t be determined with certainty that anyone is a “real” Christian, can it?

          • KeenInsight

            Since we are not omniscient, that is true to a point. As long as there’s no obvious evidence of hypocrisy or other blatant transgressions, it must be assumed that they are.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “that is true to a point.”

            It is true, period.

            “it must be assumed that they are.”

            Why? We have seen over and over that prominent Christian leaders have been found to be living in hypocrisy. Why should we assume that, lacking any evidence to the contrary, all the ones who now profess to be “born again”, actually are?

            it’s not the people “must” assume. it’s that they want to assume, because it meets a need they have.

          • KeenInsight

            “Why should we assume that, lacking any evidence to the contrary, all the ones who now profess to be “born again”, actually are?”

            So we should assume that they’re not? That seems to me to be stance that “meets a need” in you.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “So we should assume that they’re not? ”

            That would not have any merit either.

            “That seems to me to be stance that “meets a need” in you.”

            Since I don’t assume that they’re not, that doesn’t meet a need in me.

            “Have it your way – I’ll assume that you’re a serial child molester.”

            What would be the basis for your assumption?

          • KeenInsight

            We have seen over and over that [people named thoughtsfromflorida] have been found to be [serial child molesters.] Why should we assume that, lacking any evidence to the contrary, all the [people named thoughtsfromflorida] who now profess [not to be serial child molesters] actually are[n’t]?

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            So you have no basis for your assumption. Got it.

            “We have seen over and over that [people named thoughtsfromflorida] have been found to be [serial child molesters.] ”

            Where have you seen that?

            “Why should we assume that, lacking any evidence to the contrary, all the [people named thoughtsfromflorida] who now profess [not to be serial child molesters] actually are[n’t]?”

            You are free to assume whatever you care to. You are, however, comparing actual actions to statements of spiritual acceptance.

          • Matthew N Renee

            It’s not discriminating if I own a dog washing company and I only hire people with dog washing experience…..

          • Todd

            no, that would be just stupid. Having a position where the requirement is “knowledge of the bible as seen by Ken Ham” that’s one thing for a Tour Guide, why does the cashier or the janitor need to know those things? Why does the guide have to say they believe all of them rather than just having knowledge of it?

            I Don’t really like animals. But that didn’t stop me from getting a job as a tour guide at the zoo. I People can learn and understand topics they don’t like or believe.

          • Mike Wallace

            No one has “forced” them to do otherwise.

          • Neiman

            When you say by law that a Christian photographer must photograph a gay wedding, a Christian baker must bake a gay themed wedding cake, a Christian owned and operated business must hire non-Christians, that is forcing them by law to violate their faith.

          • Mike Wallace

            Wow. Now you are committing a red herring. How does this discussion pertain to tax incentives?

          • Neiman

            You were talking about not forcing Christians to compromise their faith, I gave your several prominent examples in the news, plus this story.

          • Mike Wallace

            This story is not about Christians being “forced” to compromise their faith. In fact, no one has been forced to do anything. AIG is still perfectly free to discriminate and institute a litmus test for its ministry. That just happens to disqualify them from the incentives that they seek.

            That is what this story is about. A group on entitlement minded welfare queens throwing a temper tantrum, commonly associated with prepubescent children. They do not feel that they should face any consequences for their actions or choices. It’s like they are allergic to personal responsibility. They feel entitled to special privileges based solely on their faith.

            Using your flawed reasoning, the teenager in Texas, who decapitated a friend he thought was a witch, is being persecuted for his religious beliefs, which commanded him to kill. Yall simply believe that your faith shields you from responsibility. AIG is free to continue its hiring practices. No one has told them otherwise. That just disqualifies them from a tax incentive the same as it would anyone else. I think that that is what is inducing violent rage in tall; the notion of equal protection and being treated the same as others. You’re just not that special.

          • Neiman

            First, if you looked at my first post under this story, I actually argued against Christian churches, groups or organizations, with the possible exception of non-profit charities, even accepting any tax breaks. I argued they should stay as far away from government entanglements as possible.

            However, your comments and anger show you hate Christians, it is not their tax status with you, you don’t want them to exist at all. Further, you do not like the First Amendment’s protection of religious expression. This is not about granting them an excuse from murder charges if they kill someone, not even if they withhold life saving medical care from their children. That is a world apart from not having to hire non-Christians or sell their products/services to people that violate their faith, if such participation causes them to have to compromise their faith.

            Your hatred of Christians says more about the defects in your character than it does about their faith.

          • Mike Wallace

            Wow. Is lying a compulsion for you?
            1. I’m not the least bit angry.
            2. I have not argued anything about a tax exempt status. You are conflating two issues.
            3. I have neither said nor implied a desire to get rid of churches.
            4. As a former civil rights lawyer, your accusations of hating first amendment rights is adorable. This is not a first amendment issue. The first, in no way, guarantees you tax incentives.

            That you are soo quick to weak minded lies about a person, and consider these actions virtuous, is terrifying. No wonder you cower behind a fake name.

          • Neiman

            I lied about nothing! You are a very angry person and it is mostly directed at Christians.

          • Mike Wallace

            Your entire last post was filled with lies. Nothing I have ever said or implied would lead any rational person to libel the way that you have.

          • Mike Wallace

            And for the record, I’m Jewish, you anti Semitic twerp. Liars like you rarely do well in the light of day.

          • Neiman

            That is funny! By blood I am partly Jewish, just not by religion. Most Jews in America are very liberal to socialists and so no wonder you hate as much as you do.

          • Mike Wallace

            Not a socialist either. Thanks again for proving that you are a liar. Like I said, it is no wonder that you are a coward. People like you rarely do well in the light of day.

          • pax2u

            actually I do not think that Neiman is a Christian,

          • Neiman

            Coward? I will place my military and private citizen career, wherein I engaged in very high risk, life and death occupations and activities against yours any day. I don’t use my real name because liberals have a record on the internet of tracking down people and harassing them and their families, you are not decent people.

          • pax2u

            do you hate Jews and Catholics wow

          • Mike Wallace

            You can cla whatever you want. It is the benefit of being a coward on the Internet. I especially enjoy how you believe that you are the only on to have served. And yet, you are still too afraid to actually attach your name to your coents.

            You remain a bigot and a liar as well.

          • pax2u

            Neiman said that the word means no one in German,
            he has decided who is and who is not saved, and called some pagan and anti Christ

            his hatred has consumed his being

          • Mike Wallace

            Lashing out at nonexistent enemies is not the mark of a rational individual. I am afraid of the violence with which this person may enact.

          • pax2u

            he does have an ally his name is Gary, and Gary supports the fred phelps westboro baptist church that protests the funerals of soldiers who have died for American

            Gary says that he is a Baptist, I said that Billy Graham is a great Baptist, then he became hostile wow, just wow

          • Mike Wallace

            Westboro supporters, huh? Yeah. They definitely never served. Stolen valor twits.

          • pax2u

            Neiman is not a Christian, he has no faith but to hate every one else

          • Neiman

            Well I have had enough of your nonsense. You call people liars and then you lie when you accused me of saying no one but me ever served, I never said nor hinted any such thing.

            AS you are so dishonest, I will exercise my rights to ignore your idiocy.

          • pax2u

            I ask Jews and Christians to forgive you

          • Mike Wallace

            You are a terrifying individual. You do not appear rational and I am afraid of the violence you may end up inflicting on others.

          • pax2u

            I pray that he will not harm anyone near him

          • Mike Wallace

            I rather doubt you ever served. Especially given your compulsion to lie.

          • pax2u

            did he say what country?

          • Mike Wallace

            I am also guessing that you lack the cognizance and self awareness to realize that your cries of “anger” are a projection as you continue to be violently enraged at a large group of people that you do not actually know but apparently despise.

          • pax2u

            Herr Neiman, was land waren sie in die military ?

          • Mike Wallace

            You are a bigot too. Shocking.

          • pax2u

            true, but we are told to forgive the bigots and the ignorant

          • Gary

            Then why don’t you?

          • pax2u

            Gary, I for give you and your Klan of hateful bigots
            Merry Christmass, may God forgive you

          • Gary

            No, you don’t. If you had forgiven us, you would not still be calling us names. You’re not fooling anyone. Except maybe yourself.

          • pax2u

            sorry, I forgive you even if you do not think that you are a Christian and you are filled with hatred of Christians

            Merry Christmass

          • Neiman

            You atheists/liberals like to apply labels like bigot, racist, homophobic and other such things to anyone that dares oppose your beliefs. By nature you are all intolerant tyrants that want to make everyone subservient to your beliefs.

          • pax2u

            wow, how many faiths do you hate?

          • Mike Wallace

            Still lying huh? Or is English not your first language? Your hypocrisy is overwhelming.

          • pax2u

            Herr Neiman does not only hate Jews, he also hates Catholics, and actually everyone except some of the Westboro Baptist Church racists who protest the funerals of American Soldiers

            Neiman’s heaven is very small, I do not think that there is ever room for God

          • pax2u

            Neiman says that he is a Christian and supports the Martin Luther’s book “on the Jews and their Lies” a sick and hateful anti Semitic Book

          • pax2u

            I should help you and pray for your hatred of Christians

            Merry Christmass

          • pax2u

            who is a Christian? you have already decided that Catholics are pagans

          • James Grimes

            Pax2u is making unfounded accusations against you again. He is also doing this with Gary and, to a lesser extent, against me. Although I’m having a problem fully understanding what he has written, the false information he is putting out against you is unbelievable. I would suggest we keep track of his nonsense and report him to the administrators.

            BTW, I continue to appreciate your defense of the faith and you have my continued support.

          • Neiman

            Thanks.

            I played around with him too long, now he has a sick obsession with me. He is sick and needs prayer and help.

          • James Grimes

            He has some serious issues that will need professional attention. He is a stalker and both of us are his targets. How many times is going to tell us that he forgives us and will pray for us? and then he will make unfounded accusations… fortunately, he is one extreme case of who we don’t want participating on this forum. There could be more of his kind.

          • Neiman

            When I see his name in my inbox, I delete without even reading his messages. He has a partner, magist . . . something. I hope he will get the hint and go away. God bless you!

            P.S.: I told him I do not celebrate mass and so his Merry Christmas is lost on me, now he ends it Merry Christmass

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            I am nobody’s partner. Apart from pax2u, there seems to be an ongoing pattern with you that you must denigrate people’s intelligence and label them as “stalkers” et al. when they ask you difficult questions or do not share the same assumptions as you.

          • Mike Wallace

            Your violent rhetoric is terrifying. I truly am afraid that you will go around beheading those whose beliefs you despise.

          • Neiman

            What violence have I called for or are you lying about me again?

          • Mike Wallace

            Unlike you, I do not make a habit of lying, you anti-Semitic faux-veteran. Are you so illiterate as to not know what “violent rhetoric” means?

          • Neiman

            No, carefully explain it to me and how my words lead you to believe I would decapitate anyone for any reason. Then after you explain it, look in the mirror and see how your description might apply to you. On what basis do you accuse me of being a false veteran? Or, are you making a false accusation, as is usual for you? Oh yes, you do lie constantly!

            For the record I am a former serving United States Marine having served during Vietnam, as did my middle brother. In fact my family on both sides have defended America since the American Revolution, After the Marine Corps I served in two very high risk, life and death occupations. This was all mentionedonly because of your accusing me falsely of cowardice.

            Lastly, you are a child, you have been attacking me personally since your first reply under this thread. You seem terribly insecure and not very intelligent or honest.

          • Mike Wallace

            I am not sure which is more pathetic. That you are a stolen valor twit, or that the most clever thing you can think of is to say “I know you are, but what am I?” Your hatred has consumed you. It is only a matter of time before you become the equivalent of ISIS in America.

            “For the record I am a former serving United States Marine having served during Vietnam, as did my middle brother. In fact my family on both sides have defended America since the American Revolution, After the Marine Corps I served in two very high risk, life and death occupations. This was all mentionedonly because of your accusing me falsely of cowardice.”

            Prove it.

          • Neiman

            I don’t have to prove anything at all to you.

            You failed to show why I am violent, why I will behead people and become like ISIL – you are a child that just lies and throws temper tantrums and I am done with you. There is nothing decent about you, there is no appealing to the better angels of your nature because they are obviously demons.

            Goodbye!

          • Mike Wallace

            Because you never served. You are a liar and a coward. Stolen Valor! Your comment son this thread, your violent anger at anyone you decry as “liberal.” Your insistence on declaring people wicked and damned, is all the same violent rhetoric used by other terrorists.

          • pax2u

            I think that he is much like ISIL, a fundamentalist who hates the “others” willing to condemn anyone who is not like him, he hates Blacks, Catholics, Jews, Gays, and Protestants who have a Church

            I think he misses his good old days of the Klan

          • James Grimes

            Neiman, thank you for your service. It is genuinely appreciated.

          • pax2u

            you are dealing with a very anger person, he believes that he can decide who will be condemned because they do not agree with him

          • Mike Wallace

            It is the same language used by violent terrorists the world around.

          • pax2u

            they believe that the are superior, and the “others” who do not share their hatred are a lessor person

          • pax2u

            he is a religious fundamentalist who hates all who do not also hate others,

            He is very sad and will agree with the westboro baptists as long as they also hate the “others”

            good luck,

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Was the photographer forced to photograph the gay wedding? No.

            Was the baker forced to bake a gay-themed wedding cake? No.

            Was a business owned by a Christian forced to hire non-Christians. No.

            You are presenting a false persecution complex.

          • Neiman

            In one state a judge hearing a human rights complaint about one of these businesses said that Christians must compromise their faith or face fines and even imprisonment if they fail to submit. In every case, either the Christians must compromise their faith to satisfy the liberal and gay agenda or they are forced to close their business. At work, if a Christian says that they oppose homosexuality and gay marriage as being a sin they must submit to sensitivity training and compromise their faith or lose their jobs.

            So, you are wrong, your side of our nation demands Christians compromise their faith or be unable to earn a living.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “Christians must compromise their faith or face fines and even imprisonment if they fail to submit.”

            I’d be most interested to know the exact case you are referring to. I am unaware of any law regarding public accommodation that carries a prison sentence as part of the punishment for violation.

            Since the person is not forced to own a business, they are not forced to compromise their faith.

            “At work, if a Christian says that they oppose homosexuality and gay marriage as being a sin they must submit to sensitivity training and compromise their faith or lose their jobs.”

            Businesses certainly have the right to determine the boundaries for discussions in the work place. Do you believe that businesses should be “forced” to allow any and all comments in the workplace? How would not speaking about sexuality at work “force” someone to compromise their faith?

            “So, you are wrong, your side of our nation demands Christians compromise their faith or be unable to earn a living.”

            No such demand is being made. Since many people do not agree with homosexuality and it would be reasonable to assume that most of those also work and earn a living, your statement is false.

          • Neiman

            If you refuse to pay a fine ordered by a court, what is the result? A person may be jailed until they submit.

            The New Mexico Supreme Court just made their ruling and they upheld the commission’s ruling. In the court’s ruling, Justice Richard C. Bosson stated that Elane Photography should have taken the photos of the lesbian ceremony because that is the price of citizenship. He also wrote that at times like this, people:

            …must compromise, if only a little, to accommodate the contrasting values of others,” in what he referred to as a “multicultural, pluralistic society.”

            Read more at http://godfatherpolitics.com/12263/christians-must-compromise-faith-accommodate-others-says-nm-supreme-court/#YfBe6K11YPL4VGod.99

            People have a right to own a business, even those Christians that you hate have that right and owning a business does not mean one must surrender full expression of their faith.

            Most of these businesses support the gay agenda and even promote gay sensitivity in the workplace. Don’t Christians have a right then to speak out when it occurs against this evil indoctrination of your secular religion?

            So, in every point you are wrong and are defending evil and oppose the Bill of Rights.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “If you refuse to pay a fine ordered by a court, what is the result? A person may be jailed until they submit.”

            True in some cases, not in others. Apparently you are unable to provide proof of your statement. No surprise there.

            ““…must compromise, if only a little, to accommodate the contrasting values of others,” in what he referred to as a “multicultural, pluralistic society.””

            IF they CHOOSE to operate a business. They are not “forced” to do so and therefore cannot be “forced” to compromise.

            “People have a right to own a business”

            Of course they do, within the confines of the law. With that said, in CHOOSING to do so, they accept the laws which govern the business they are CHOOSING to own.

            “even those Christians that you hate”

            I don’t hate any Christians.

            “and owning a business does not mean one must surrender full expression of their faith.”

            Correct. It does mean, however, that they accept the laws which govern the operation of their business. If they don’t agree with those laws, they are free to choose to not operate a business, work to get the laws changed, or challenge the laws in court, but they are not allowed a pass on the laws based solely upon their religious beliefs.

            “Don’t Christians have a right then to speak out when it occurs against this evil indoctrination of your secular religion?”

            Of course they do, but it may be that their place of employment does not allow such speech. The 1st amendment does not translate to: “I have the right to say whatever I want, whenever I want, and where ever I want”

            “So, in every point you are wrong”

            Nothing you have said supports that conclusion.

            “and are defending evil”

            I disagree. With that said, what one chooses to view as “evil” varies from person to person, so you are certainly entitled to your opinion that I am defending what you believe is evil.

            “and oppose the Bill of Rights.”

            I fully support the Bill of Rights. You misunderstand the application of 1st amendment.

          • Neiman

            Your hate for the Christian faith and the First Amendment have been proven; as have, my support for the Christian Faith and freedom of religious expression.

            There is nothing more to argue or debate. You have chosen sides against religious freedom and our Constitution.

            Good bye!

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “Your hate for the Christian faith and the First Amendment have been proven”

            Please provide such proof.

            “You have chosen sides against religious freedom and our Constitution.”

            I am a strong supporter of religious freedom and our constitution. The issue is that you have a misunderstanding of both.

          • Peter Leh

            If the business is forcing the owner to violate their faith then the owner needs to sue their company. 🙂

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Since no one is forced to own a business and no business owner is forced to offer certain products, then no one is “forced” to violate their faith.

            If someone doesn’t like the laws governing business they are free to not open a business, work to get the laws changed, or take legal action. What they are NOT free to do is violate the law and expect there to be no consequences.

        • Gary

          Yes. Businesses have the right to hire who they want. Forcing people to do business with those they don’t volunteer to do business with is slavery.

          • Todd

            nobody is forcing anything, save for the people that are forcing you to be a christian to work there. Even though there are plenty of positions where you could do the job and your faith doesn’t matter.

            Nobody not faithful would want a job there.

            it’s not slavery is everybody is there by choice.

          • Gary

            The slave in this case would be the employer who is forced to do business with those not of their choosing.

          • Todd

            Sense they are Christians and the bible is ok with slavery then you shouldn’t have a problem with this.

            also, what you said is straight up not true. Where in the bible does it say a christian store owner can only work with other Christians?

          • Gary

            A Christian, just like everyone else, is free to hire who they want. All business relationships should be voluntary, which means anti-discrimination laws are wrong.

          • James Grimes

            Thanks for sharing, Gary. You have more patience with the naysayers than I do. Just be prepared to receive the usual insults that comes with defending the faith. Blessings.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Oh and by the way … James here does not make any insults at all. Only the atheists do that.

            “Christians don’t care.” – James
            “Do you have any more foolishness to share?” – James
            “you will get incoherent insults in return” – James

          • dark477

            The law would disagree with you

      • Todd

        Which if he didn’t want a Giant tax break for it, nobody would care.

        But he wants 18 million in breaks. Even though it’s a amusement park and not a church. (and everything gets run though Ken’s for profit company)

        I’m from the same planet you’re from. I just keep to facts.

        • James Grimes

          You’re an Atheist and I’m a Christian Enough said.

          • Todd

            So? Facts don’t care what you believe in.

            you’re Enough said, was not enough said. it actually didn’t say anything other than you carry a lot of bias and a fear of things that might contradict your very contradictory religion.

          • James Grimes

            You can believe whatever you want. Proverbs 26 : 4 prohibits me from engaging with Atheists. I’m not interested.

          • Simon Hankins

            That my friend was awesome. God Bless You for taking a stand against the common atheist ( Most people who say they are atheists are actually people who are just angry at God and can’t understand his Word).

          • James Grimes

            Thanks. I don’t have any tolerance for the Atheist trolls who stalk this site. Generally, they are rude, abusive, and very demanding. I don’t put up with their nonsense. Have a blessed day.

          • Todd

            Except for that you were the one that started being rude…. feel free to see who got backhanded first. (here’s a hint, it’s you when you had no argument.)

          • http://www.thebajeezus.com/ The Bajeezus

            Listen, I understand the propaganda and misunderstandings about atheists that float around churches, some of which is essential to the maintenance of your faith, but I think I can speak for all of us when I ask you not to say that we’re just angry at your God. Our intellectual integrity means as much to us as your savior means to you. We cannot be angry at what we do not believe in, and it is not conducive to conversation and coexistence to mis-categorize each other. Whether or not we agree with Christian teachings or dogma, it has no influence on whether or not we accept the hypothesis of the existence of a god or gods. All atheists would accept the existence of God were any evidence presented. After that would come the question of whether He was worthy of worship or not. But you need to stop saying that most atheists are just angry at God. It isn’t true, and spreading lies and insults about us doesn’t help either party in this situation. We have the respect for your right to have your sincere beliefs, show us the same courtesy.

          • Todd

            That’s not remotely true about athiests. That’s something religious people like to tell each other, because otherwise, the other thing they tell each other, “that you can’t be happy without god.” would also be untrue.

            guess what…. Nothing you just said is true. and i’m not trying to be angry with you at all. I’m trying to promote facts and reason.

            I’m sorry your holy book tells you to fear thought. But you need to try to take a more skeptical approach to things.

          • Rebecca Spellmeyer

            There are people on both sides that take things to far. WBC claims to be Christian but most would agree otherwise. The same thing is true for atheists. There are those that don’t care what others believe and they are allowed to believe as they please. There are also militant atheists that do tend to hate or are angry with God and decide that if God was real what ever has them feeling angry or hateful would not have happened and they take that anger/hate out on Christians with attacks like you hate facts, you cherry pick the bible to fit what you want, your stupid, you can’t carry on a debate, etc. What they don’t do is debate but instead insult the statement/person and then it doesn’t matter what their point was.

          • Todd

            There’s a lot of christian echo chamber nonsense in this post, let me try to clear things up for you.

            If you have ever met an atheist that says they are angry with god. they are not an atheist. It is not possible to be angry at something that doesn’t exist. If they are mad at god, they aren’t an athiest, they are a christian who’s mad at god. or a jew, hindu, whatever…. you just have to figure out which god they are mad at.

            Everything you listed there about “stupid atheists” and their debates is exactly what you’re doing. You just called me stupid in the process of telling me i insult people. You cherry pick the bible and even little things that other Christians tell you, Like atheists are mad at god. That’s 100% made up by Christians, you can put that right next to atheists can’t be happy and athiests hate facts. That last one is actually just christians getting mad when reality doesn’t line up with their fairy tales. and not the other way around. The bible has no facts in it. no matter how much you say it does, it’s nothing more than a book of fables written by farmers then edited by kings that you take as the word of god, even though it’s WELL DOCUMENTED that it was edited by man, and that following most of the rules in the bible would actually get you arrested in america because we have higher standards than those listed in the bible. (like we don’t do the slave thing, we love pig, we don’t beat women and children for speaking out.) OH which reminds me there christian…. You being a woman speaking out against a man is against the rules of the bible. So if we followed your bible rules, i could kill you. I don’t want to, that’d be rude and a waste. But those are the rules you’re defending.

            Any time a christian doesn’t get to do what they want they go full blown end of the world everybody is against our religion. Even though it’s just Christians wanting special attention and rules than everybody else. There is no war on Christmas, If you think there is then you need to be more accepting of other’s religions. Christians do not own this time of year despite what fox news pundits tell you.

            so please, don’t try to tell me about facts when you have nothing more than the things your chruch told you about athiests. Don’t tell me i don’t know how to debate as you start insulting me out of nowhere. If you read what you were replying to, you’d realist that you’re all the things you claimed athiests were doing to you. Even though it’s clear as day that you’ve never actually spoken to one. That’s why you refer to them in boogie man terms rather than as a person.

            Thank you for taking the time to realize this, and adjusting your attitude accordingly.

          • MountainDewFan4

            You are very wrong. Do you even know any atheists personally? How can you tell us what atheists are unless you are one and/or know personally many atheists. I am an atheist, and I know dozens of them personally. NOT ONE of them is “angry at God”. All of them simply do not believe that there is an invisible thing that has supernatural abilities. That’s it. We are not mad, we are not angry, we do not “hate” god. How can we if we do not believe in him? Are you angry at Zeus because you think that he doesn’t exist?

            It is so typical of theists to assume that since they believe in god, that EVERYONE must believe in him. I don’t like broccoli, does that mean that I think everyone should not eat broccoli? Of course not, you are free to eat whatever you choose, free to believe whatever you choose, free to pray to whoever you choose. Just don’t expect everyone on the planet to think the same way as you.

          • Rebecca Spellmeyer

            But some do. Just because you don’t know one doesn’t mean they don’t exist. There are atheists that don’t like broccoli and they feel it is their duty to share why they don’t like it and if you don’t agree your stupid, illogical, mentally ill, ruining the planet, etc. They will even go so far as to lie about broccoli hoping that others will be disgusted enough to stop eating broccoli and maybe even continue to spread that false information. Steve McClung or Hellbroke Lucy Dupree on Facebook and youtube is one of the most vile.

          • Todd

            Did you ever consider that you might be the one spreading lies and they were telling you the truth? That you may have been lied to your whole life about your holy book? has that ever crossed your mind for a moment?

          • Zachary Chastain

            There are almost 5,000 or so different religions in the world.

            Most people who say they’re Christians are actually just angry at the Gods of those other 4,999 religions. It’s not that they don’t believe Zeus doesn’t exist, but rather that they’re mad at Zeus and just can’t understand him.

            See why your thoughts on atheists are wrong yet? It’s not as though atheists are singling out your faith to not believing in. You’re almost as atheist as they are, in fact. They don’t believe in 5,000 different religion’s gods, and you don’t believe in 4,999 different religion’s gods.

            From your point of view this line of reasoning makes sense and fits neatly in the narrative of your faith, but to be fair, all of those other religions probably think the same thing. Are all those other religions right, and all of their gods are real, just because atheists don’t believe in them?

          • Todd

            Lol, a very christian way of being a giant douche.

            Nothing in there says that because you believe in the bible you can’t be the fool. Because you have no argument, you’re trying to hide being your bible. But that just makes you a fool. Facts care little for your book.

          • https://www.facebook.com/robert.rogers.1804 robert

            I’m a believer. Please don’t let the unloving behavior of some Christians throw you into a caricature of all Christians.

          • DD

            No matter how ‘intellectual’, ‘logical or ‘lawful’ the secularist’s argument begins it invariably ends in childish anger and slurs just as your ungracious post did.
            Matthew 7:6 Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
            Proverbs 23:9
            Do not speak to fools, for they will scorn your prudent words.
            Proverbs 29:9
            If a wise person goes to court with a fool, the fool rages and scoffs, and there is no peace.
            Proverbs 9:8
            Do not rebuke mockers or they will hate you; rebuke the wise and they will love you.
            Thank you God for the absolute truth of your Holy Word!

          • Todd

            I like how you hate context and just blame the person with the facts.

            that’s why i’m no the one raging and scoffing. I’m not the one trying to shut down the argument by quoting scripture, as a backhanded way of saying i’m a fool. You seem to think that’s ok because he used the bible to do it.

            Keep taking everything out of context then you don’t have to worry about facts.

          • James Grimes

            Good use of Scripture – the Sword of the Spirit. Keep up the great work of defending the faith. God bless you.

          • DD

            Thank you, James. God bless.

          • Todd

            Lol, never crossed your mind that you might be the fool?

            Only a fool takes things with no research or evidence…..

          • https://www.facebook.com/robert.rogers.1804 robert

            You’re also an illogical Christian who cannot carry on a dialogue without an ad hominem.

          • James Grimes

            LOL.. Typical Atheist.

          • https://www.facebook.com/robert.rogers.1804 robert

            Atheist? Hardly. You have no idea who I am. I’m a believer in Christ. Just because I tell you that you are inept to carry on a dialogue with an atheist doesn’t make me one. Your antics of personally attacking anyone who doesn’t agree with you only underscores your low emotional IQ.

            And both of us know that if a Muslim group wanted state tax breaks to build an Islamic theme park, most of us Christians would be crying “foul.” No one is saying that Ham can’t have his park; he just shouldn’t expect the tax payer, some whom are not religious, to help pay for it.

          • Demopublicrat

            “You’re also an illogical Christian who cannot carry on a dialogue without an ad hominem.”

            “I tell you that you are inept” “your low emotional IQ”

          • Rebecca Spellmeyer

            You are the one that attacked first. “You’re an illogical Christian” Then when you called on it you attacked again. That is how atheists behave not Christians. You will know them by their works.
            How do you not realize that you are getting after him for doing what your doing to him? Or is this a case of I can do it but you can’t which is an atheist tactic as well?

          • pax2u

            grimy jimmy says that he is a Christian, and condemns anyone else as not being a Christian that does not agree with his “Christianity” he and Neiman who calls Catholics pagan, and Gary who supports the Westboro Baptist Church, nice bunch of “christians”

          • https://www.facebook.com/robert.rogers.1804 robert

            smh

          • Demopublicrat

            “The doctrines of the Catholic Church are entirely independent of Holy Scripture.” Familiar Explanation of Catholic Doctrine, Rev. M. Muller, p.151.

            “That the Church of Rome has shed more innocent blood than any other institution that has ever existed among mankind, will be questioned by no Protestant who has a competent knowledge of history . . . It is impossible to form a complete conception of the multitude of her victims, and it is quite certain that no powers of imagination can adequately realize their sufferings.”–W. E. H. Lecky, History of the Rise and Influence of the Spirit of Rationalism in Europe, vol. 2, p. 32, 1910 edition. -nice bunch of “Christians”

          • James Grimes

            Unfortunately, you are trying to communicate with someone who will not be able to understand what you are telling him and you will get incoherent insults in return. This is how he operates. Good effort, though. I admire your tenacity.

          • Gary

            You are accusing Jimmy, Neiman, and me of being fake Christians. Isn’t that the same thing you are saying we are wrong in doing?? Why is it right for you, but wrong for others?

          • pax2u

            I am not accusing you and your Klan of being fake Christians.

            your Klan are not Christians at all, just a bunch of hateful bigots, the lunatic fringe

            Merry Christmass

          • Gary

            We are not fake Christians, just not Christians at all? You really want to go with that? If you do, then it will be pointed out to you that you contradicted yourself. Do you understand how?

          • pax2u

            if you do not think that you are a Christian then that is your decision

          • Gary

            Your reading comprehension problem pops up again. Maybe reading s-l–o-w-e-r might help you.

          • pax2u

            I forgive you

            Merry Christmass

          • James Grimes

            Gary, you’re dealing with a low level of intelligence. You will not get any coherent response from him. The only thing that comes through is his insults. Blessings for a great weekend.

          • pax2u

            I see that the Klan has arrived to support you

          • bob williams

            Oh dear, getting a bit angry, may I suggest handbags at dawn?

        • Matthew N Renee

          Tourism brings in money. They earn the tax break. It is not given.

          • https://www.facebook.com/robert.rogers.1804 robert

            So would you have no problem if this was a tax break for an Islamic theme park? Would you still hold to your argument? Just curious.

          • Matthew N Renee

            I got a problem with Islam no matter what they are doing and where their money is coming in BUT if they earn a tax break through good business practice then all things being equal, it should be allowed. Am I right? If they were a government funded entity then it’d be different. It is being built using private funds and it is being sustained by it’s own profits… the tax break comes in because of a tourism clause which is probably why they decided to build it there in the first place. Someone probably even assured Ken, he would be able to get it. I do not know this for sure but big things like this do not go ahead without some planning and discussion. Plenty of phone calls and hand shaking. I can understand why Ken is being attacked though and it has nothing to do with getting a tax break. The same reason the atheists wanted that 9/11 memorial removed because it looked like a cross… even looking like a cross offends people and that is why I know it is true.

          • https://www.facebook.com/robert.rogers.1804 robert

            Thanks for your response. So, if the Islamic group insisted on hiring their own, although KY says that there cannot be a discrimination in hiring, would you still think they are entitled to the tax break? I think the crux of the matter is the hiring process. What say you?

          • Matthew N Renee

            Businesses hire who they want regardless and the government with their affirmative action does not help anything. I go into plenty of establishments and wonder where this whole anti discrimination will go. Will Hooters have to hire male waitresses? Will handicap parking be eliminated because of favoritism? I am not sure but I do respect the laws of the land and if they are not breaking any laws by it then let it be. I would imagine hiring non Christians would actually work out for them as they likelihood of them becoming a Christian would greatly increase having to pretty much be in the presence of Christians and anything associated with it all day BUT it just makes sense you know? I work at a Christian school and to work at this school, you have to be a Christian…. it just makes sense lol. I would almost call it common sense. 🙂

          • https://www.facebook.com/robert.rogers.1804 robert

            I’m not sure your comparison of Hooters and handicap parking works in this situation. Hooters probably hire males in other capacities (cooks, etc.), which is different than Hooters having a blanket policy that says males need not apply. That would be the problem. I’m not so sure how handicap parking relates to this particular matter.

          • Matthew N Renee

            That is because you think I am trying to win an argument but I am not. I am saying what is discrimination and what is common sense. If the park only hires non Christians to clean toilets, that would be something to write about! Christian park hires Christian workers. If it was an LGBT theme park, I would hope only LGBT work there. All things being equal I am absolutely okay with that and them earning their tax break for tourism. I am not sure why I am repeating myself….

          • https://www.facebook.com/robert.rogers.1804 robert

            You said,” That is because you think I am trying to win an argument…”

            No, please don’t assume what I’m thinking, nor put words in my mouth, just because I think your comparisons were weak or irrelevant.

          • Matthew N Renee

            Cool. Have a blessed day Robert. Jesus loves you and considers you family. He didn’t just die for our sins but we got to be royalty. Princes and princesses. We get eternal mansions in paradise. Eternal rewards for our earthly work devoted to Him. Where we are weak, He is strong. In my weaknesses, He is actually completing me. I am not an intellectual or any kind of genius. I am common so common sense is my forte.

          • Todd

            There’s nothing common about what you’re thinking. You have to have somebody teach you those things. You don’t get born with that knowledge, and it’s not something you just figure out. That’s what common sense is.

            If nobody told you the bible was true, then there is no way in nature that you could discover that story. There is no natural way to just know how to be a christian. there’s nothing common sense about it.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Well said Todd! Also you might mention, how do you know we all get “mansions in paradise”? Huh? Do you have proof?

          • Todd

            The 9/11 memoral didn’t look like a cross. That was a picture of some rubble that looked like a cross that Christians wanted as the thing but nobody else really did and was not an official thing.

            You just take that as being persecuted. It’s not. Not everybody that died in that building was a christian. Not everybody that helped was a christian. So why are were you mad that the Christians didn’t get the memorial they wanted?

          • Rebecca Spellmeyer

            In the days following the attack that cross became a symbol of strength for the rescuers which is what make it historical in nature more than religious in nature. The atheists did attack it because they also say it as religious and think that establishment of religion means something it does not. One of the arguments made was that the sight of the cross gave them a tummy ache. No mention of the Star of David that was made by the workers out of the rubble. I have to ask why they would say such a thing about a cross that they wanted removed but remained silent on the so called “endorsement of the Jewish religion? It sounds like a toddler throwing a fit because they didn’t get what they wanted right away how they wanted it. The 9/11 cross will stay in place so stop fighting it.

          • Todd

            Sorry no. That only became big among Christians. And then they got really mad when they didn’t get what they wanted. The Christians naturally took the EVERYBODY IS AGAINST us route, rather than the more rational, my religion is not the only one involved here, approach.

            You know why there was no mention of this star of david? because it didn’t happen. Go on, try a google image search. You’d figure that would come up right away…..

            yes, you do sound a lot like a toddler throwing a fit. because you’re making stuff up and crying because you’re not getting special treatment.

          • Todd

            Too bad that’s not at all how it works. They are asking for tax breaks on religious exemptions. Please try to keep up.

        • Eric N Ericka Oberhausen

          Ah typical stupid atheist (not an ad hominem. God calls atheists fools). This silly business of “Freedom from Religion” that you spout is nowhere in the Constitution, as the Founding Fathers made reference to Jesus several times and mentioned the Christian God in the Constitution, Preamble, and Declaration of Independence. If you say nay, then please do explain why the Government had Scripture engraved on the Liberty Bell? HMM…

          • MountainDewFan4

            The founding fathers also had SLAVES. Does that mean we should bring back slavery? Of course not. I don’t see anywhere in the Constitution where is says that the every citizen United States of America shall be Christian and shall beleive in the same god. Why isn’t it there? Because that is NOT what the founding fathers wanted. They wanted a place where everyone could participate in whatever religion or non religion they choose.

          • Todd

            lol, liberty bell was made by a bunch of religious folk? Created before the declaration of independence.
            That’s an ad hominem, you can’t just hide behind the bible and get different rules.

            also, you should re-read the 1st amendment. and everything else about the constitution and preamble. Because the references to jesus don’t exist. sorry you were lied too. I would advise being more skeptical of the things you are told and do some more of your own research.

        • MGM46

          I am not familiar with the numbers you are using please post those links so we can see for ourselves. How much Christian money funds planned parenthood.

          • Todd

            Read the article for the numbers.

            as for planned parenthood? SO WHAT? You know how much tax breaks churches get? So you can bitch all you want, if churches were taxed, the country would be out of debt and our infrastructure would be rebuilt in a heart beat.

            And you want to bitch about PP, i guess you think they are an abortion mill when that’s less than 5% of what they do.

            also, holy sh*t, this was all from like 5 months ago and you’re just digging it up asking questions?

      • https://www.facebook.com/robert.rogers.1804 robert

        He can hire who he wants, just don’t expect money from the state.

      • Peter Leh

        i would think christians care about the law…

      • MountainDewFan4

        So, if I’m a white person, then I can refuse to hire black people? Is that how things work in this country?

        • James Grimes

          Do you have any more foolishness to share?

          • MountainDewFan4

            Hmmm. I was just responding to your comment above in which you stated, “Ken can only hire Christians if he wants”.

            This, of course, is only true if the business meets certain conditions. By asking for public funds he no longer has this freedom, similarly he could not hire only white people, etc.

          • James Grimes

            I guess you do.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Sorry, I have a long way to go to catch up to all of your foolishness, but I’m trying.

        • pax2u

          be careful, his bible waving fundamentalist hatred will come out, soon you will hear is reasons why, he should be able to deny rights for Blacks, Catholics, Gays, Jews, and Protestants who he has decided are against his beliefs,

          His freedom is his freedom to hate all of the “others” not like him

      • thoughtsfromflorida

        “Ken can only hire Christians if he wants.”

        No, he can’t. It is a business of public accommodation. As such, he is required to abide by the hiring laws of Kentucky.

        • http://www.FascistDykeMotors.com/ Katy

          That’s probably right here. A business can discriminate on the basis of race, religion, etc. only if the business is tiny OR if it’s a bona fide occupational qualification (BFOQ).

          This means that if I’m hiring someone to play Martin Luther King in a movie, I can ignore everyone accept the black guys. Or if I’m hiring someone who needs to be able to run for the job, I can eliminate people who can’t run even if that excludes handicapped people.

          The story with this Kentucky thing, though, wasn’t even about EEOC coming down on them from what i read. It was about whether the State would subsidize the park. IN other words, “You can discriminate but don’t expect us to subsidize you!”

    • Neiman

      That is just Christian hatred!

      • Todd

        No, no it’s not. It’s just facts. If you don’t want to take any handouts or tax breaks, then you can hire whoever the hell you want. and the public doesn’t have to be privileged to your hiring policies.

        Just because facts conflict with your faith doesn’t make it hatred. That just comes with your faith. Faith is believing in something when faced with no evidence or even evidence contrary to your belief.

        • Neiman

          Yes, yes it is – you hate Christians, you are an atheist!

          Facts do not conflict with my faith.

          • Todd

            Sorry you think it’s hatred. But it’s not. It’s just Ken ham not wanting to follow the same laws as everybody. You don’t get to discriminate just because you hide behind a bible. That’s a fact that you and ken seem to have a hard time with.

          • Neiman

            Sorry, you are anti-Christ and hateful of Christians. Further, the 1st Amendment prohibits any laws that infringe on freedom of religious expression. People like you have a hard time with the Constitution, hiding behind your Christ hatred

          • Todd

            lol, that’s not how the 1st works at all. If it did, then the religious bias bills that have tried to pass recently wouldn’t all be struck down…. strange…

            you have freedom of religious expression. not religious oppression. Saying “only Christians apply” is oppression when it comes to jobs. Sorry, you have to actually play by the same laws as everybody else where you’re not allowed to discriminate.

            If the 1st worked like you think it does, then none of those laws that prevent discrimination would be allowed. But they are. Strange.

            Facts and reality don’t agree with you. You want your religion to be special and be above the law. It’s not. You’re going to have to deal with that.

          • Neiman

            Are you always so wrong and have you always hated Christians?

            Until 1962 that is how the laws always worked at every level of government, they all adhered to the 1st Amendment. No matter how many courts NOW rule otherwise, the Constitution is against you. Without tax breaks, you would have no ground at all. Which is why I want them ended.

          • Gary

            Freedom of religion includes being free to hire people who agree with you. If not hiring non-Christians was oppression, then not having a business that hires people would be oppressing them. No one has the right to work anywhere, unless it is in their own business.

          • The silent one

            other organizations use tax breaks and go as they want to. this is someone in kentucky’s govt who wants to play stupid and ignorant

          • Paul Alan Whitehouse

            Clearly, you are unclear on the concept. No, Congress cannot prevent the free exercise of religion, but neither is the government – local, state or federal – obligated to waste taxpayer money on a religious organization that claims the right to discriminate in the hiring of people to work at this park that we the taxpayers are paying for. You want the money play by the rules. And atheists don’t hate christians. No, you’re thinking of other christians. We just dislike ignorance, hatred and a childish sense of entitlement on behalf of your imaginary friend.

          • Neiman

            In my first post here, I argued against Churches or Christian organizations using any tax exemptions.

            These agencies you listed are not obligated to provide such tax exempt status, but they can choose to and mostly have.

            Nonsense, you just don;t have the honesty to admit your hatred of Christians.

        • Gary

          That is not what faith is. There is evidence for faith. One cannot have faith in God without believing God exists, and the universe is proof of God’s existence.

          • Todd

            The universe existing is not proof of anything existing but the universe. You just wedged god in there.

            Nothing you said there is actually evidence of anything. Believing in god is also not evidence for god.

          • Gary

            That is your opinion. But it is not shared by lots of people.

          • Todd

            No, that’s actually just a fact in how evidence works.

            Believing is not evidence, that’s why you can’t just BELIEVE somebody is a killer really hard and get them convicted, you actually have to have evidence.

            I’m not presenting any opinion. Just simple facts. You’re just having a hard time getting your faith to reconcile with reality.

          • Gary

            God has provided evidence for His existence. Physical evidence. My existence is proof that God exists.

          • http://www.thebajeezus.com/ The Bajeezus

            Your existence is only proof that your mom and dad procreated.

          • Gary

            If God had not created Adam and Eve, none of us would be here writing on this topic.

          • http://www.thebajeezus.com/ The Bajeezus

            Ah, yes, you’re Gary. Pick up a science book, my friend. Natural selection covers this nicely, and has actual evidence to back it up, unlike Genesis. I understand why you’ve got to cling to the Adam and Eve thing, though, Christianity kind of falls apart without it.

          • Gary

            Sorry, nature is completely incapable of producing humans by itself.

          • http://www.thebajeezus.com/ The Bajeezus

            Really? Because there’s mountains of real, verifiable

            evidence and scientific consensus that contradicts that statement. Again, pick up a science book, my friend. It’s all right there, it isn’t speculation, these are hard facts. You can believe what you want, but if you make incredibly ignorant and scientifically illiterate statements like that in public, you’re going to be called out.

          • dark477

            Pity those two never existed.

          • pax2u

            Todd

            Nieman and Gary are hypocrites

            Neiman has decide who is a Christian and who is not, who is saved and who is not

            Gary is a Baptist, and condemns Billy Graham and embraces the fred phelps westboro baptist church

            if you do not believe in God that is your decision but at least you are not a hypocrite

          • The silent one

            mans inherent desire to worship, is proof of intelligent design. you desire to worship nothing, I choose worhsip the intelligent creator, GOD

          • Todd

            Not true. Man’s inherent desire to worship is something made up by religion.

            also, how would one worship nothing? Wouldn’t that be not worshiping, and thus, huge swaths of people don’t have that “inherent desire” to worship?

            So no, that’s not evidence either.

      • pax2u

        really, amazing, since you have called other Christians anti Christ, from you this is hypocritical

    • TheBBP

      That is a really cool story, but you are ignoring the “As we reapplied for the incentive, the state surprised us with two conditions not found anywhere in the law,” part. The conditions are not a part of the law and were tacked on after the fact.

      • Todd

        save for the part where that’s not actually true. sure. Just because ken ham is acting surprised doesn’t mean it just popped up.

        oh, and the whole, it’s very illegal to make people declare their faith to get a job at a non-for profit.

        FACTS! they are fun. Which is why ken ham’s fantasy playground isn’t very fun.

        • Gary

          Mr. Ham has stated that when they begin hiring for the Ark Encounter, they will follow state and federal laws.

          • Todd

            except in this very clear violation of discrimination laws……

          • Zachary Chastain

            I could state a lot of things and do the opposite, or mean well in my statements but find that my actions inadvertently fall short. Ken Ham could also easily find himself in either of those scenarios.

    • Candy Lovett

      You are so right Todd. I have been warning people about this for years. Even about getting the 501c3 status makes you a slave to the government. Get rid of the 501c3 just as Chuck Baldwin and very few other ministries and the government no longer has a right to tell you how to run your ministry. Christians just do not seem to understand how they make themselves a slave to the government

      • Todd

        There’s a lot of things they don’t understand. Slavery is one of them.

        • Candy Lovett

          I have told Christians a lot of things over the years. Their own Bible says that their god will supply all their needs. IF that is the case, then why do they rely on the government for tax breaks?

    • bowie1

      State non-funding not withstanding some people just don’t like him building the ark. Bill Nye was one of them and was worried about kids not learning about “science” (as he defines it). But hopefully there are no other government created roadblocks even without state assistance.

      • Todd

        it’s not science as he defines it, it’s just science. based off the foremost working human knowledge.

        Kids shouldn’t be learning the fairy tales ken ham preaches as fact. because they are not facts, it’s been proven over and over again. Despite what a holy book says.

        He shouldn’t be getting any kind of tax break for an amusement park.

        • bowie1

          Perhaps. But it’s up to the parents what their children are taught and it is okay to hear both sides of the story so they are aware of all viewpoints.

          • Todd

            Why? Why should fairy tales be held up to be the same solid basis of knowledge as proven facts?

            There are not 2 sides to this story, there’s the truth and then their’s what ken ham and creationists REALLY REALLY WISH happened.

            If really wishing for something made it real, then Santa Clause would be one real dude.

          • Joel Saint

            “There are not 2 sides to this story, there’s the truth and then their’s what ken ham and creationists REALLY REALLY WISH happened.”

            Thanks, Todd, for showing your hand. This is not about tax breaks, or discrimination after all right? No, this is about the Word of God vs. the word of man.

            I’ve been following this comment thread for awhile, and it definitely took some time for you to show your cards.

            But I kind of agree with you in a way: “Why should fairy tales be held up to be the same solid basis of knowledge as proven facts?”

            Quite true. No one should ascribe to fairy tales the same status as the Word of God. That is why it’s time to do some real defunding. Starting with the government schools.

          • Zachary Chastain

            You win the award for craziest comment I’ve read on this page thus far. Congrats! You beat a guy who thought that someone should have read an article he wrote on another site about a viewpoint that related to this story, even though he never shared the link with that person, just figured they would have read it on their own. 🙂

            That’s a tough act to follow, but you nailed it, you nutjob! 🙂

          • Joel Saint

            So Zach, you call me a nutjob???

            You, who believes that in the beginning, nothing created the heavens and the earth.

            You, who worships at the feet Carl Sagan (who did not believe in the big
            bang) and Richard Dawkins (who does believe in the big bang).

            You, who refuses to worship the God who spoke all life into existence, yet
            accepts the delusion that the DNA language spoke itself into existence.

            You, who curses the one true God, and Jesus Christ whom He has sent.

            You have done me an honor sir; you could only do me a greater honor by calling me worse names than what you have so far chosen.

            In the mean time, my young friend, still have time to bow before the Christ that you have denied and cursed. I cannot urge you strongly enough to recognize and receive Him as your Savior and King.

            If not, you will one day face Him as your judge.

          • Zachary Chastain

            And the Buddhists say that if you keep being a jerk to people that one day you’ll be reincarnated as a dung beetle. There are around 5,000 different religions in the world, and there’s nothing special about yours. The only reason you’re a Christian is you were born into a geographical area where most people are, and so you were indoctrinated into that religion instead of another.

            All of that being said, you’re not a nutjob because you’re a Christian. Nobody is a nutjob for following a religion. It’s a choice that everyone can make for themselves.

            You’re a nutjob for denying science and wanting to defund education in a vain attempt to foist your own views off onto an entire nation’s youth at their own detriment. After all, public education is a benefit to society, it’s why we have a country full of well-educated people, a literacy rate of 99%, and why most of those people are able to work and contribute to society in meaningful ways, instead of living in tiny villages in destitute poverty.

            You’re a nutjob for thinking your own personal choice in religion, one of 5,000 making similar claims with a similar lack of observable evidence, is more important than the well-being of a nation of human beings, and for thinking its your right to make that choice for anyone else, much less everyone else.

            Also, why assume I’m an atheist? There are 4,999 religions besides your own, for all you know I could believe in one of those. You’re narrow-minded, that’s why.

            Why take issue with the Big Bang Theory? The Christian creation story in Genesis only describes the creation of the world, not the universe itself. Meanwhile, though observable background radiation at consistent levels throughout all of the known universe proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that the Big Bang happened, there is nothing about the theory that is at odds with your religion. If a god did create the universe, he had to do it somehow. A Christian could argue that their god created the universe through the Big Bang. You either don’t understand the Big Bang Theory well enough to realize that no aspect of it specifically refutes anything your religion claims, or you’re not familiar enough with the teachings of your own religion to realize this.

            So, in addition to being a nutjob, you’re also ignorant to the scientific theories that YOU bring up, or you’re ignorant to the teachings of your own religion.

            “You, who believes that in the beginning, nothing created the heavens and the earth.” Also, that’s not what the theory states. There have been many theories as to what may have created the Big Bang. The collapse and rapid expansion of a dying universe that existed before ours, the other end of the event horizon of a black hole in a parallel universe, there are all sorts of theories and many of the leading theories fit with our current understanding of physics and theoretical physics.

            So again, why are you brining up things that you don’t even have a basic passing knowledge of? You’re obviously not interested in actually learning about it (or letting anyone else learn about it either, apparently).

            I’m not going to call anyone a nutjob for being religious. You’re only a nutjob when you decide it’s your right to push that religion on the rest of us by force. Even your own religion’s creation story says that your god gave man free will. If your god wanted people to have free will, do you really think he would want you trying to force them to follow him?

            It’s not an honor, because I’m not calling you a nutjob for being Christian. I’m calling you a nutjob for being a Christian who isn’t Christ-like. A sad hypocrite, that’s what you are.

          • Joel Saint

            Thank you, Zachary, for engaging in the conversation with me.

            Let’s take your objections one at a time, keeping in mind that this may get a bit lengthy, and I may have to respond in multiple posts.

            You say, “There are around 5,000 different religions in the world, and there’s nothing special about yours.”

            Here, you commit a tremendous logical fallacy–and that in the very first paragraph! B, C, D, and all the way through Z may all be false, but that does not necessarily make “A” false.

            In fact, you actually address your own falsehood later in your post, where you say “There have been many theories as to what may have created the Big Bang.” So, let’s apply your logic: Since there are many theories as to what “may” (I just love that little dodge) have created the big bang, then I must conclude that all are wrong, not based on merit, but on amount.

            In fact, it appears you have little confidence in these theories that “may” have “created” the BB. Looks to me like you believe they all “may” be wrong.

            Tell you what: The fact that all your theories “may” be wrong in no ways demonstrates the Gospel of Jesus Christ to be wrong as well. You can be wrong on your own, thank you very much.

            So, you’ve managed to answer your own objection.

            Now, on to your next fallacious statement: “The only reason you’re a Christian is you were born into a geographical
            area where most people are, and so you were indoctrinated into that religion instead of another.”

            Once again, you’ve managed to refute yourself. Later on you say,

            “Also, why assume I’m an atheist? There are 4,999 religions besides your own, for all you know I could believe in one of those. You’re narrow-minded, that’s why.”

            Once again, let’s apply your “why assume I’m an atheist” logic: Why assume that I’m a Christian just because of where I was born? Christianity is found all over the world. I’ll give you, for example, China, where Christianity is growing (I’ve seen numbers of between 100 & 200 million) despite tremendous opposition from the state (Communistic and atheistic) authorities.

            So much for your “geographical” argument. And, don’t even try to weasel out of it either. You said the “only” reason why I’m a Christian, is that I was “born into a geographical area where most people are, and so [I was] indoctrinated into that religion instead of another.”

            So now: If I’m a Christian because I was born in America, and “only” that reason, how do you account for the the Christians in China?

            And another thing: If it were true that the “only” reason why I’m a Christian is because of geography, then does that apply to you as well? Did you attend the government schools? If so, is that the “only” reason you reject the biblical account of creation?

            OK, so much for the fallacies of paragraph #1. If you had stopped with just that paragraph, my job would have been a bit harder. But, thankfully (I guess), you went on, and refuted yourself.

            So many fallacies, so little space and time. OK, enough for paragraph #1; now on to #2:

            You say,

            “All of that being said, you’re not a nutjob because you’re a Christian. Nobody is a nutjob for following a religion. It’s a choice that everyone can make for themselves.”

            Well, no, not really. I’m not following “a religion” as if Jesus Christ is one among many. He’s not: “There is no other name under heaven, given among men, where by we must be saved.”

            And, truth be told, I’m not “following” Christ as much as He has followed me. He reached down and saved me, a rebellious sinner with my fist in his face. But, He reached down and saved me, for which I am eternally grateful.

            So trust me, He pursued me and saved me to the honor of His great name.

            By the way, it may be nice, on some level at least, so say, that no one is a “nutjob” because they are Christian, that wasn’t the case with Christ. He was called more than a nut job. This man, who, having done nothing worth of death, was tortured to death, was thought to be worse than nuts–He was thought to be downright dangerous.

            Hence, the “need” to torture Him to death. The people of His day spoke, and said “Crucify Him!”

            How about you, Zachary; where do you stand with Jesus Christ?

            All right, enough for paragraph #2; I’ll have to address #3 in the next post, as this one is too long already.

          • Zachary Chastain

            “Here, you commit a tremendous logical fallacy–and that in the very first paragraph! B, C, D, and all the way through Z may all be false, but that does not necessarily make “A” false.”

            No I don’t. I never said that because other religions exist that yours is wrong, or that any of the others are right or wrong. I merely pointed out that Christianity is not special, as though it were the only religion in the world, it is just one of many religions. This is undeniably true, and there’s no fallacy in stating it.

            You however, go on to commit the logical fallacy you accuse me of, in saying: “Since there are many theories as to what “may” (I just love that little dodge) have created the big bang, then I must conclude that all are wrong, not based on merit, but on amount.

            In fact, it appears you have little confidence in these theories that “may” have “created” the BB. Looks to me like you believe they all “may” be wrong.”

            And to address this ignorance you’ve spouted, I say “may” because unlike religions, science doesn’t claim to have the absolute and perfect truth. We’re always finding new information that forces us to reshape our understanding of the world.

            That may seem like a weakness to you, but every time we reshape our understanding of the world based on the proliferation of new knowledge, we understand how the world and our universe actually works a little better.

            Science is willing to admit it’s not perfect, and to adjust to new information. Religion cannot do this, it depends on absolute dogma that cannot easily be changed.

            We don’t currently have the level of technology and understanding to properly test those theories, and so until we can, they remain theories which may or may not be proven true. The point in mentioning them is merely to call attention to your ignorance in stating “You, who believes that in the beginning, nothing created the heavens and the earth.” because that’s not at all what the theory actually states. You call the theory into question, but you don’t even know what the theory states. You know what happens when you make assumptions, right?

            You just don’t seem to understand any of that because you’re incredibly scientifically illiterate. Did you attend any school at all?

            I suppose I was a little hasty in saying “the only reason.” It’s true that thanks to missionaries that Christianity has spread all of the world, just like all other major religions. My overall point isn’t to the validity of your particular religion though. It’s absolutely true that religions are passed down among friends and peer groups. Some do shirk those teachings and join a new religion or become atheists, but most parents teach their children the religion they follow as an absolute truth. This is indoctrination, and it is a major contributing factor to the spread of religion.

            “Well, no, not really. I’m not following “a religion” as if Jesus Christ is one among many. He’s not: “There is no other name under heaven, given among men, where by we must be saved.”

            But he is. Some of those 4,999 other religions have entire pantheons of gods. He’s one among thousands. Every religion makes claims like the one you quoted, but that doesn’t make them true. If claiming to be the one true religion is all it takes, then all religions are the one true religion.

          • Joel Saint

            Hi again, Zachary,

            At the outset, I have to admit that your response is simply, well, ‘amazing.’ Let me remind you of what you said initially: “There are around 5,000 different religions in the world, and there’s nothing special about yours.”

            Whatever did you mean if you weren’t trying to say that the amount of religions in the world makes makes Christianity less “special”? Otherwise, why did you even mention the number of 5,000?

            But, you go on to say, ” I never said that because other religions exist that yours is wrong, or that any of the others are right or wrong.”

            Well, now, for a brief moment at least, you are getting it, and you are right. So we agree: The amount of so-called ‘religions’ in the world in no way negates the truth of Christianity. It could be that 5,000 or even 500,000 belief systems could be false, but that in no way falsifies Christianity, right?

            See, that wasn’t so hard, now was it?

            Look, I don’t believe in Christ because He claimed to be the Way, the Truth, and the Life. I believe and love Him because He claimed to be the Way, the Truth, and the Life… and backed it up by rising from the dead three days after He was tortured to death.

            And yeah, Zachary, that’s pretty special.

            Now to go on and address your comments on science: “…science doesn’t claim to have the absolute and perfect truth.” We’re always finding new information that forces us to reshape our understanding of the world.”

            Good. So ‘science has no answers that are “absolute and perfect truth.” Once again, we agree! But, Zachary, do you have the courage to follow your statement to its logical conclusion?

            If what you said is true, then science can teach us nothing of lasting value, because whatever we “know” today might be falsified in the next generation (you know, kind of like Steady State & Big Bang).

            After all, Steady State was embraced by plenty of Carl Sagan wanna-be’s a generation ago. One generation later, we’re all about the Big Bang. Who knows what it will be a generation from now? Or ten years from now? Or next year? Or, who knows, maybe even next week?

            So Zachary, do you have the guts apply logic to your own statements? By your own admission, science can teach us nothing of permanence. Since “We’re always finding new information that forces us to reshape our understanding of the world,” then, by your own admission, you cannot count on any scientific conclusion whatsoever.

            Of course, in this case, you’ve covered yourself well, by stating that “Science is willing to admit it’s not perfect, and to adjust to new information.”

            Got that right. In fact, the contemporary scientific community appears to be in a constant state of “adjustment.” Have you heard the latest? The water on planet earth apparently was deposited by comets. Yes, some ‘scientists’ are actually floating that idea.

            But then, why not? Hey, we can throw out any idea we want; we’ll just “adjust” it later on.

            Welcome to today’s modern ‘scientific’ community. One thing is for sure: Modern scientific types sure don’t seem to lack for a lively imagination.

            Someone needs to explain to them the difference between repeatable experimentation and groundless speculation.

            And Zachary, I think you’re just the guy to do it. Somebody has to! Consider yourself nominated! But… Are you up to the task?

          • Zachary Chastain

            The amount certainly does make it less special. Don’t assume you can exchange my words for your own and the statement will be the same. I said that it doesn’t automatically prove or disprove any particular religion’s claims simply because there are 4,999 others with similar claims. However, the fact that there are 4,999 other religions does make each one less “special” because it means the claims are not unique.

            Your own example is a great one. Most religions feature a figure of sacrifice. The Greek god Prometheus brought fire to humanity, against the wishes of Zeus, and was tortured for the rest of time for helping mankind. He was sentenced to be killed over and over each day by an eagle, which would eat his liver. He would regenerate each day due to his immortality. This is a story of even greater sacrifice. If the depth of sacrifice is how we measure which religion is most special, then surely a god who sacrifices an eternity of torture in exchange for helping humanity and asking for nothing in return is more special than one with a short life and death as a mortal, only to return to eternal paradise and still require something of man in return for this comparatively small sacrifice.

            I understand your religion is important to you, my point is that to everyone else, it is one of 5,000, and so when you approach them with your self-righteous attitude and ignorant claims that your religion is objectively unique, they will not take you seriously. They will not listen.

            Someone needs to explain the scientific method to you. It all starts with a theory that must be tested, and of course theories evolve as our ability to test them improves and new information becomes available.

            I could say to you that the requirement of faith in place of evidence for religions is a weakness. As someone who obviously understands the power of faith in something, I suspect you would disagree.

            Similarly, your lack of understanding prevents you from knowing that a lack of empirical answers is not a weakness of science, but rather a strength. Your religion readily agrees with me that humans and fallible, so it is no surprise that there are no perfect black and white answers.

            Still, I personally would prefer to know an ever increasing bit of the truth than accept false absolute answers from any religion. Perfect answers aren’t so useful in a world where they don’t actually exist.

            There is nothing you can say to me which will convince me your religion is special, because the facts don’t objectively support that conclusion. Perhaps someday we’ll have more facts and your position can be reliably proven or disproven. Until then I’ll focus on the theories I can reliably test with the information I have right now.

            You don’t possess any understanding of the concept of science, even a basic, passing knowledge, therefore discussing it with you is a waste of my valuable time. If you want to continue our discussion then I suugest you do some serious reading, researching, and studying. Otherwise, I could have this same conversation with my cat to the same great affect.

            There is no middle ground here. You’re incapable of intelligently discussing subjects of science, I am incapable of converting to your viewpoints without overwhelming, conclusive, and objective evidence. There is no value in this discourse for either of us, nor was this discourse ever the point.

            The point was simply to let you know you’re nuts for thinking your personal beliefs are more important than the education of our narion’s children, which is of grwat benefit to the individual, the nation, and our society.

            That goal was well accomplished, so don’t expect me to waste any more of my valuable time on your ignorance or rhetoric. One thing we can both agree on, life is too short to waste it on stupid people. This is obviously how we both in turn view each other, and with that view of each other and the tone it creates we’ll achieve nothing productive.

            Have a great life, guy, and Merry Christmas. 🙂

          • Joel Saint

            Thank you, Zachary, for engaging in the conversation with me.

            Let’s take your objections one at a time, keeping in mind that this may get a bit lengthy, and I may have to respond in multiple posts.

            You say, “There are around 5,000 different religions in the world, and there’s nothing special about yours.”

            Here, you commit a tremendous logical fallacy–and that in the very first paragraph! B, C, D, and all the way through Z may all be false, but that does not necessarily make “A” false.

            In fact, you actually address your own falsehood later in your post, where you say “There have been many theories as to what may have created the Big Bang.” So, let’s apply your logic: Since there are many theories as to what “may” (I just love that little dodge) have created the big bang, then I must conclude that all are wrong, not based on merit, but on amount.

            In fact, it appears you have little confidence in these theories that “may” have “created” the BB. Looks to me like you believe they all “may” be wrong.

            Tell you what: The fact that all your theories “may” be wrong in no ways demonstrates the Gospel of Jesus Christ to be wrong as well. You can be wrong on your own, thank you very much.

            So, you’ve managed to answer your own objection.

            Now, on to your next fallacious statement: “The only reason you’re a Christian is you were born into a geographical
            area where most people are, and so you were indoctrinated into that religion instead of another.”

            Once again, you’ve managed to refute yourself. Later on you say,

            “Also, why assume I’m an atheist? There are 4,999 religions besides your own, for all you know I could believe in one of those. You’re narrow-minded, that’s why.”

            Once again, let’s apply your “why assume I’m an atheist” logic: Why assume that I’m a Christian just because of where I was born? Christianity is found all over the world. I’ll give you, for example, China, where Christianity is growing (I’ve seen numbers of between 100 & 200 million) despite tremendous opposition from the state (Communistic and atheistic) authorities.

            So much for your “geographical” argument. And, don’t even try to weasel out of it either. You said the “only” reason why I’m a Christian, is that I was “born into a geographical area where most people are, and so [I was] indoctrinated into that religion instead of another.”

            So now: If I’m a Christian because I was born in America, and “only” that reason, how do you account for the the Christians in China?

            And another thing: If it were true that the “only” reason why I’m a Christian is because of geography, then does that apply to you as well? Did you attend the government schools? If so, is that the “only” reason you reject the biblical account of creation?

            OK, so much for the fallacies of paragraph #1. If you had stopped with just that paragraph, my job would have been a bit harder. But, thankfully (I guess), you went on, and refuted yourself.

            So many fallacies, so little space and time. OK, enough for paragraph #1; now on to #2:

            You say,

            “All of that being said, you’re not a nutjob because you’re a Christian. Nobody is a nutjob for following a religion. It’s a choice that everyone can make for themselves.”

            Well, no, not really. I’m not following “a religion” as if Jesus Christ is one among many. He’s not: “There is no other name under heaven, given among men, where by we must be saved.”

            And, truth be told, I’m not “following” Christ as much as He has followed me. He reached down and saved me, a rebellious sinner with my fist in his face.

            So trust me, He pursued me and saved me to the honor of His great name, for which I am eternally grateful.

            By the way, it may be nice, on some level at least, so say, that no one is a “nutjob” because they are Christian, that wasn’t the case with Christ. He was called more than a nut job. This man, who, having done nothing worth of death, was tortured to death, was thought to be worse than nuts–He was thought to be downright dangerous.

            Hence, the “need” to torture Him to death. The people of His day spoke, and said “Crucify Him!”

            How about you, Zachary; where do you stand with Jesus Christ?

            All right, enough for paragraph #2; I’ll have to address #3 in the next post.

          • bowie1

            Yes, there are not 2 sides to the story since those on this side believe WE have the solid basis of knowledge as proven facts, verified by eyewitness testimony, and that what you support is FALSE. Be that as it may, it is still up to the parents what their kids get taught, and then this is, of course, a private concern who have the right to disseminate anything they wish within their facility.

    • https://www.facebook.com/robert.rogers.1804 robert

      I get it. As a Christian, I totally agree with you.

    • Peter Leh

      good to know. Any links you can share? thanks in advance

    • http://www.washingtondcevangelists.com Washington DC Evangelists

      Sounds like a smart business move to me. Yeah, Churches are a business, a non-profit business. And if you change you wording from “handouts” (which is a lie) to tax breaks (which is the truth), it paints a totally different picture ~ unless you never try get a tax refund that is.

    • Matthew N Renee

      I am pretty sure the tax break comes after the park is built and given to all tourist attraction businesses after the meet a certain quote for bring in tourists which boosts the economy. The park itself is being built and funded completely without tax money.

      • Todd

        Not true as ken has been funding it though his other non-for-profit AiG. As well as the for profit wing.

        the tax break comes right away. WIth everything. Not after whatever tourism nonsense thing you said. If that exists it’s a special deal, not something that’s law.

    • Jeremy Grimes

      As a Christian, if that is true then he would fall under those requirments. Just like anyone who recieves state or federal assistance.

      • Todd

        No, because he has a faith requirement for the job that is not required for most of the people that work there.

        so no, he would not qualify. also, it’s an amusement park, not a church. Amusement parks don’t need federal assistance, or state assistance which would be the case here, sense we’re talking about 18 million dollars of Kentucky tax payer money.

        • Jeremy Grimes

          Todd, did you miss it buddy? He would fall under the statutes of receiving state or federal money, I.E. you cannot restrict who you hire based on civil rights law dependent on jurisdiction.

          Move along ITG, it’s since, not sence…

          • Todd

            That’s literally a bunch of gibberish. Even if you don’t get state or federal money, you don’t get special exemption from discrimination laws If you get state or federal money, THEN you still have to obey by all the anti discrimination laws.

            Explain to me why a janitor there is required to sign a pledge of faith? does believing in young early creationism make for cleaner carpets?

            Lets remember, you’re defending Ken Ham and his Young earth creationism idea. Even most Christians know that the earth is older than 6000 years and man did not ride on dinosaurs. But ken ham wants tax breaks and special faith requirements for his amusement park to promote this idea as fact.

          • Jeremy Grimes

            I realize there are 1000’s of atheists clamoring for the position of carpet cleaner at a creationist museum…

            You have no idea how ridiculous you sound do you? What do you care what this guy does or who he hires? Why would anybody want to work there if they didn’t believe that anyway? Is the job market so tough that the only job some Buddhist can get is working the gift shop at this place?

            I took the time to read all of your posts. Your arguments are trite and sophomoric at the least. At the most you are an agent provocateur and do not further the discussion

          • Todd

            I like the part where you tell me my arguments are trite as you change the subject and make it personal rather than, i dunno, sticking to the subject.

            Do i think any person in their right mind would want to work with ken ham? god no….. But that doesn’t mean he gets to discriminate. What about a christian that (rightly) does not believe in young earth creationism, but could work there doing whatever, Ken won’t let them because they’d have to sign a pledge saying they believe in young earth creationism. Why is that ok?

            I get that there are jobs there that will have a requirement of all of Ken’s nonsense. But you have to believe it 100% to work the register? Or do accounting?

            Why does Ken Ham get a pass? because he says he loves god? sorry, loving god doesn’t put you above the law. No matter how much you love him.

    • Joel Saint

      What funds from the state of KY has Ken Ham been asking for?

    • Mark Alvin Chua

      I was following this development for quite sometime already, the media there spreads half-truths and information that only sided with the athiest groups. That is why there is so many misinformed people about what the ark encounter is applying for.

      The ark encounter is applying to tax breaks that is applicable to all possible tourist attractions there with a certain performance benchmark to reach. So by adding addtional rules just because they are a Christian group is unfair. As far as I know, there is no rule that prohibits selective hiring of an religious organization if they will apply for this specific incentive (correct me if I am wrong)

      The incentive they are applying will bring more state income by the tourists that will visit the site, as was the purpose of the kentucky incentive in the first place.

      This aricle is one of ark encounter’s response
      https://answersingenesis.org/ministry-news/ark-encounter/state-officials-wont-sink-ark-encounter/

    • Mark Alvin Chua

      I was following this development for quite sometime already, the media there spreads half-truths and information that only sided with the athiest groups. That is why there is so many misinformed people about what the ark encounter is applying for.

      The ark encounter is applying for tax breaks that is applicable to all possible large scale economic developments there with a certain performance benchmark to reach. So by adding addtional rules just because they are a Christian group is unfair. As far as I know, there is no rule that prohibits selective hiring of an religious organization if they will apply for this specific incentive (correct me if I am wrong)

      The incentive they are applying will bring more state income by the tourists that will visit the site, as was possibly one ofthe purpose of the kentucky incentive in the first place.

      This aricle is one of ark encounter’s response
      https://answersingenesis.org/ministry-news/ark-encounter/state-officials-wont-sink-ark-encounter/

    • Hoosier22

      You are dead wrong!! The government takes money from us EVERY day and uses it to kill the unborn without the consent of the Christian taxpayer. Federally funded crap is imposed ALL the time and Christians are the ONLY sector that people want to discriminate. Sick of the Angry Offended atheists, KKGay, FemNazis, and Whiny liberals trying to make ONE set of rules for THEIR agenda, a second set for anyone who has a Christian belief.

      • thoughtsfromflorida

        “trying to make ONE set of rules for THEIR agenda, a second set for anyone who has a Christian belief.”

        What set of rules applies only to those who have a Christian belief, but not to others?

    • thoughtsfromflorida

      “NOW, if he wants to build his little fantasy theme park without asking for tax breaks or public funding, then he can hire whoever he wants.”

      Actually, it is not dependent on his receiving a tax break. He is opening a business of public accommodation. As such, he is required to abide by the hiring laws in Kentucky.

      Unless the park is located in Covington, Danville, Frankfort, Lexington-Fayette County, Louisville Metro, Morehead, or Vicco, he is free to discriminate based upon sexual orientation. The rest of Kentucky does not have laws that include sexual orientation as a covered category.

    • Coach

      Todd, does it bother you that you’re spending your time trying to disprove the existence of a God you don’t believe in? I would love to say that you shouldn’t be on a Christian site if you have such a problem with Christianity, but you being here shows that you’re not just an apathetic atheist, but one looking to disprove the existence of God and though I have no idea what fuels that desire, I know it’s fueled by something and the fact remains that God loves you in-spite of you. “While we were sinners, Christ died for us”, He died for the unrighteous, so I pray His love and mercy meet you where you are that though you are as deserving of eternal judgement as I am, you may receive mercy as I have.

      -Merry Christmas to you and your family Todd

      • SashaC

        Congrats on posting a long word salad that has absolutely nothing to do with the original comment.

        • Coach

          Thank you, I’m honored that you called my post a word salad.

          Have a Happy New Year Sasha 🙂

          • SashaC

            You’re welcome! Lol!

            Happy New Year to you as well. 🙂

      • Todd

        Ok coach, sense you couldn’t even be bothered to read what I said there i’ll break down a couple of things.

        first, I in now way tried to disprove god. It is not possible to prove a negative, so I wouldn’t waste my time with it. Burden of proof is on those who make the claims. So it’s not up to me to disprove god, it’s up to you to prove it. But I also didn’t waste time trying to disprove god because this is a thread about Ken Ham and his need to build a theme park backed by taxpayers.

        Second, I know you didn’t read what i said because you went into generic Christian “oh an Atheist doesn’t know anything and just needs god” rant. Which makes what you’re saying here 100% ad hominem, you’re trying to discredit me rather than talk about why ken actually deserves a tax break for a theme park that says that Man rode dinosaurs.

        Third, how did i end up here. This story got picked up my some sight i read. And I like making sure there’s some facts written down for people with a little reason left to work with. Despite what you think, i’m not just here to do all the generic atheist stuff your church group tells you atheists do, but never actually do.
        So, Coach…. Why are you here? clearly not to discuss the subject at hand? does a christian news sight need another preacher? Because you’re just another in a line of people here that haven’t been interested in discussion about taxes from somebody who doesn’t believe in the same myth as you.

        • Coach

          I did read your post, I commented for the simple fact that many of your comments represent your atheism, so I saw this as your position being used in your attack on Ken Ham. My question remains of why you’re on a Christian news site when you don’t believe in God. You believe this is all there is and yet you’re spending your time on a Christian news site.

          The heavens declare the glory of the Lord, you’re here because you are trying to disprove the existence of God, but God doesn’t go away because you don’t like Him, He doesn’t fit into your flawed view of what God should be and frankly, you like the idea of not having to be accountable for the sin you’ve taken pleasure in.

          I’m here commenting on your post in hopes that God will use something that angers you today, to draw you to repentance tomorrow.

          with love,
          Coach

          • Todd

            Great example of christian love. “I’m here commenting on your post in hopes that God will use something that angers you today, to draw you to repentance tomorrow.” you’re only here because you hope god will punish me.

            that’s not love. That’s true hate right there. I wish nothing upon you but reason and facts.

            And you have to make a lot of assumptions about me to get to any of your conclusions. It’s sad you can’t argue on the subject at hand and have to try to tear me down, with your actual hope of bad things happening to me.

            Don’t ever say what your doing is with love.

            What in what i said was trying to disprove god? If saying that ken ham not getting a tax break for his amusement park with bigoted hiring practices is disproving god, then the bar for disproving your god is really really low. That’s why i say you didn’t read my original post. because you jumped right to “you’re disproving god” when i was just disproving that this was any kind of attack on Christians, and that ken ham doesn’t actually deserve any tax breaks for this.

            In reason,
            Me

          • Coach

            If you were correct I’d say so, but I will admit this one thing. God loves you and uses people just like you for His Will, so I’d rather see you post on a Christian news site how you don’t believe in God and how you have an issue with Christians than for you to simply be apathetic. Deep down inside you know God is real, Jesus died so that you could be free from the chains you’re carrying.

            Happy New Year to you and your family Todd

    • MGM46

      You certainly overlook the facts that are convenient for you to prove your point. Let’s not forget that many Christians fund the government and those funds are used for abortion and various other things.

      Your point is not point at all.

      • Todd

        So what? I have to put up with your churches getting a 80 billion dollar tax break every year.

        you also have no idea what PP does. ssoo my guess is that facts and reality mean nothing to you. (oh wait, you believe in the bible. so that’s not a guess.)

        You just don’t like my point, nevermind that it’s all true. But hey you’re used to having to ignore facts to reach the conclusion you want, aren’t you?

        Kindly STFU until you can learn to use some critical thinking skills.

        • MGM46

          So, we have to put up with Planned Parenthood getting our tax money, and yes I do have an idea of service Planned Parenthood perform.

          You don’t have a point and what you post is so one sided it can easily be refuted.

          Your problem is that you don’t consider me to be very smart, but I am smart enough to see through people like you.

          That is the final word from me – take your best and cheapest shot – no response will be coming.

          • Todd

            of course you won’t. because you don’t have anything to back up what you’re saying. where i have facts and reality backing me up.

            Boo hoo. you have a small amount of your taxes going to women’s family planning and health care. While your church rolls and tax free donations.

            You don’t like what i have to say, so you cry about it. But it doesn’t make it any less true.

            Thanks for shutting up. The world is a better place for it.

    • Katee Ripid

      In Malaysia, muslims pay zakat and ONLY muslims use the zakat money but non muslims pay income tax and the money is used both by muslims and non muslims…muslims can spread their religion to non muslims but other religions are banned from spreading their religion to muslims…..how does that sound to you?

  • Neiman

    I will make many of my dear Christian brothers and sisters mad and ahead of time I say I sincerely regret the anger that will come my way. I also regret that I will, without wanting to, embolden all the Christ haters out there.

    Yet, I believe it would be better if no Christian Church or organization, with the exception of non-profit charities, would not accept any tax breaks, that they would thereby end all entanglements with this world and its governments, which are all wicked. When we become thus entangled we find ourselves answering to the State, we find ourselves compromising our faith. Christians weaken their testimony by such entanglements, we need to come entirely out from the world and be separate from them.

    • Scott Plumer

      So you’re saying Romans 13 doesn’t apply? “Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.”

      • Neiman

        I am sorry, I didn’t know you didn’t know how to read. I am arguing for the Christian faith to not take tax breaks, so they are not dictated to by the state.

        I never suggested or argued for our not obeying the law or paying taxes, but that we avoid evil entanglements with the state as much as possible by not taking any tax breaks. And as you obviously do not know God’s Word, beyond using it as a weapon against Christians by misuse, we are also told to do so only as is fitting in the Lord. When Peter and John were ordered by authorities over them, which authorities Jesus told the Jews to obey, Peter and John refused. If such laws would demand we compromise our faith, we are to obey God and not man, even unto death.

        Sorry, but your misusing God’s Word to use as a weapon to get Christians to compromise their faith won’t work. A Christian organization would compromise their faith by allowing enemies of Christ to be hired. It is unconstitutional for them to be forced to do so.

        • Zachary Chastain

          Are you really going to accuse him of not being able to read for suggesting that your statements sound like you’re advocating for complete separation from government and society, including rejection of laws and taxes?

          Let’s take a look at what you actually said: “that they would thereby end all entanglements with this world and its governments, which are all wicked.”

          That seems pretty all encompassing to me. “End all entanglements with this world and its governments” certainly goes further than just rejecting public funds. “All” is a very final, vastly applying term. Perhaps that’s not how you meant it, but there’s nothing in what you wrote to clue us in on that.

          It would be more fitting to accuse Scott of not being able to read your mind, as he would need to in order to differentiate what you wrote with what you apparently meant to convey.

          To further stress this point: “When we become thus entangled we find ourselves answering to the State” Answering how? Like by following laws that you don’t like that you feel come too close to interfering with your beliefs and your ability to proselytize them?

          Again, totally understand that this may not be what you meant by this statement, but just like the first bit, there’s not a lot of context beyond this, so you have to admit that it’s not completely unreasonable that someone who can’t read your mind would interpret it this way.

          “Christians weaken their testimony by such entanglements, we need to come entirely out from the world and be separate from them.” Again, not being able to read your mind and know what you actually meant to convey, this again sounds like more rejection of secular government and everything that comes with it (ie, taxes, laws beyond your own religion, etc).

          I’ve fixed your statement directed at Scott so that it makes a bit more sense:

          “I am sorry, I didn’t know you didn’t know how to read my mind. I am arguing for the Christian faith to not take tax breaks, so they are not dictated to by the state.

          I never suggested or argued for our not obeying the law or paying taxes, but if you couldn’t read my mind it could very easily be interpreted to mean just that. Thus my opening statement about how I didn’t realize you couldn’t read my mind. Sorry about that. I’ll actually write all of what I’m thinking next time, or at least not accuse you of being illiterate for asking a question based on a reasonable assumption regarding what I did write.”

      • Gary

        Governments have the responsibility to God to have moral policies. Governments are no more exempt from being moral than individuals are. When a government fails in that, they forfeit their right to exist and need to be replaced with a government that will be moral.

        • http://www.thebajeezus.com/ The Bajeezus

          Just for the sake of the hypothetical, I’m not saying that it actually is, but given your comment, how is that not treason? Overthrow a secular government because they don’t follow the celestial dictator’s edicts? I’m not calling you or anyone else a traitor, I’m just genuinely curious how you rectify the disparity between your two governments.

          • Gary

            I was trying to make the case that we have no obligation to honor an immoral government. And our founding fathers embraced the idea of changing out a government when it overstepped its bounds. Which the us government certainly has.

          • pax2u

            Gary supports the Westboro Baptist Church of Fred Phelps as they protest the Funerals of Soldiers who died for America

          • http://www.thebajeezus.com/ The Bajeezus

            Ah, gotcha. So, just disengage with crazy, then?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Pax2u,
            Why are you continuing with these unproductive and uncharitable comments? It’s Advent, remember? A time for reflection on the birth of Christ the Savior.
            Please, pray to the Holy Spirit before hitting Post, okay?

          • pax2u

            Gary, has stated that he supports the Westboro Baptist Church

            I appreciate your faith and attempts to turn the bigots away from their hatred of the Church,

            does Neiman still believe that the Catholic Church is pagan and anti Christ?

            I must stand against those who are willing to lie about my faith

            you have more patience for those you hate us then I have

            Holy Michael, the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our safeguard against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray; and do you, O Prince of the heavenly host, by the power of Godcast into hell Satan and all the evil spirits who wander through the world seeking the ruin of souls.
            Amen.

          • Gary

            Do you accept the teaching of the Catholic religion that evolution is true and Genesis is fiction?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Gary,
            Neither of those are teachings of the Catholic Church.
            Catholics are allowed to believe in biological evolution, or to reject it (as I do). A Catholic must believe that all of Creation was made by God, and that man’s immortal soul is created by God and placed in the body at conception.
            The Church does not teach that Genesis is fiction. I don’t know from where you received this bogus information. I hope that helps. God Bless!

          • Gary

            If you believe in biological evolution, you MUST consider Genesis to be fiction. Genesis contradicts evolution, and vice versa. They cannot both be true.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Gary,
            That’s not true, at all. There are many people, Protestant, Catholic, and Jew, who believe in Genesis and also believe in biological evolution. I’m not one of them, as I’ve stated. I see very little evidence for biological evolution.
            I see NO evidence for materialistic, Darwinian evolution. Which the Catholic Church rejects, by the way. And, I don’t believe that the Holy Spirit intended Genesis to be a science book.

            But, that’s beside the point. Your assertion that it’s Catholic teaching that evolution is true, and Genesis is fiction, is not true. Whoever passed on this error to you, was mistaken. I hope that we’re clear on this point. God Bless!

          • Gary

            Genesis says God made the universe, and everything in it, in six days. There is no way to reconcile that with what evolution says. The Catholic Pope says that evolution is compatible with Genesis. There is no way that is possible.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Gary,
            Again, the pope is not the only Christian who allows for belief in some form of evolution and Genesis. But, Catholics reject materialistic, Darwinian evolution.

            Now, you are aware that the Sacred Scriptures says, “But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day” (cf. 2Pet.3:8)?

            Or, that the Hebrew word for “day” (yom) in Genesis does not necessarily mean a 24 hour day? That is can also mean an age or era?
            Again, the book of Genesis is not a science book. The Holy Spirit didn’t inspire the sacred writer to tell us how God created the universe. He was telling us why God created it.
            If how, and when, God created the world was important for out salvation, wouldn’t Christ have addressed it?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Oh, one more thing, Gary.
            How did Adam name all of the animals upon the earth in one, 24-hour period? If you do the math, you’ll find that it’s impossible.

          • pax2u

            I do not limit God, God is outside of time, His concept of time does not have to be as ours is, a sec is a million years or more

            Fundamentalists will say that scripture is literal,

            but when a Catholic offers scripture such as

            Matt 16
            …17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18″I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19″I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”…

            or

            Luke 22

            …18for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes.” 19And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 20And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.…

            they will say it is taken out of context,

          • Gary

            Do you mean that you believe evolution is true?

          • pax2u

            I mean that God’s power, knows no limits

            Creation could be in 7 days with each day having no limit to time as man understands it

            do you limit God to our concept of time

            In the Bible where does it say that a day is 24 hours and each hour had 60 minutes, and a minute had 60 seconds and how a second was defined?

          • Gary

            The days of creation in Genesis were regular days, not long periods of time. “And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.” Genesis 1:5

          • pax2u

            where does God define the length of a day?

            how many minutes in God’s day, and how long are those minutes?

            you are taking scripture out of context

          • Gary

            I am not taking Scripture out of context. I am reading it literally and in context. You are refusing to do that.
            God created time. He created Day and Night and made a day 24 hours in length. Each hour is 60 minutes. Each minute is 60 seconds.
            God is not constrained by time. But the Bible says God created the universe, and life on earth in six 24 hour days.

          • pax2u

            what was the date of the first day of creation? was it on a monday or a friday, was it day light savings time? was it in March named for Mars or in July,named for Julius Cesar?

            was it based on the pagan Julian Calender of Julius Cesar or the Catholic Gregorian Calender?

            you mock God, by limiting his powers

            yes you are taking scripture out of context, and adding your concept of time to it

          • Gary

            Since God rested from his creative labor on the seventh day, his work of creation took place on days one through six. If what we now call Saturday is the seventh day of the week, then God began creating on what we call Sunday, and finished on what we call Friday.
            It is indisputable that the Bible says God made everything in six days and rested on the seventh, even if you don’t believe it.

          • pax2u

            I am glad to know that you take the Bible literally, and that a day is the same at creation as it is now,

            and that God uses the Catholic Gregorian Calender that is used literally today

            what day is it today? Friday Dec 19, as the Catholic Calender that God uses says?

          • Gary

            Your indirect answer to my original question seems to indicate that you believe evolution is true. Will you admit to that, or deny it?

          • pax2u

            I say that God is true, and has no limits

            Does God use the Catholic Calender as a day today is the same as a day at the time of creation?

          • Gary

            God probably goes by the Jewish calendar.

          • pax2u

            what is today’s date?

          • Gary

            According to which calendar? It is 12/19/14 by one calendar. You will have to look up a Jewish calendar to find out what it says.

          • pax2u

            It “seems” that you deny an all powerful God

          • Gary

            How do I do that? By believing what the Bible says? Exodus 20:11 “For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day:”
            If evolution is true, then God has not stopped creating. The creation isn’t finished. But the Bible says He is finished creating what he started in Genesis chapter one.

          • pax2u

            can God create everything by any means?

          • Gary

            In theory, yes. But the Bible gives some specifics about creation that eliminates some possibilities. One of the possibilities the Bible eliminates is evolution over long periods of time.

          • pax2u

            God is not a theory, if you are a Christian

          • Gary

            I never said God is a theory.

          • pax2u

            In reality God can do anything and create life anyway,

            God is all powerful
            and our time is not God’s time

          • Gary

            God could have worked through evolution, if He had wanted to. But according to the Bible, God chose instead to make everything in six days. A six day finished creation cannot be reconciled with the theory of evolution.

          • pax2u

            I do not limit God, and God’s concept of time, does God use the Catholic Gregorian calender?

          • pax2u

            Gary if you believe that evolution is not Christian, have you ever gone to a Medical Doctor? a Medical Clinical, or a Hospital?

            Should true Christians never see a doctor, go to a medical clinic, or a hospital, because those Doctors needed to have passed a biology course at least once and probably many times.

            Maybe this is Darwin’s revenge by natural selection those who believe that evolution are against God, will never seek health care because Medicine is based on biology and will just stay home

          • Gary

            Well, at last you have made if clear that you do believe in evolution, and you don’t believe the Bible.

          • pax2u

            I am sorry that you hate Christians Gary, and I will pray for your eternal soul

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Did you pray to the Holy Spirit before sending that reply, Pax2u?
            Or, some of the others? (Ha-ha!)
            You did really good, for awhile, I must say. Don’t give up. It gets easier, the more patience you ask for. Stay strong. God Bless!

          • pax2u

            I wish you well,

          • pax2u

            Gary, I think that it is best that you never go to a doctor, and every one in your family drop out of school

          • pax2u

            I believe that my God, the Father in Heaven created all things.

            How is not my concern

          • Gary

            Then you don’t believe that evolution is true?

          • pax2u

            I do not know how God created all things, but I believe that God DID create all things

            I do not limit the abilities of God

            do you use the Catholic Gregorian calender? does God?

          • pax2u

            so you read this scripture as literal

            Luke 22

            18for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes.” 19And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 20And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.…

          • pax2u

            James Ussher (1581-1656), Archbishop of Armagh, Primate of All Ireland, and Vice-Chancellor of Trinity College in Dublin was highly regarded in his day as a churchman and as a scholar. Of his many works, his treatise on chronology has proved the most durable. Based on an intricate correlation of Middle Eastern and Mediterranean histories and Holy writ, it was incorporated into an authorized version of the Bible printed in 1701, and thus came to be regarded with almost as much unquestioning reverence as the Bible itself. Having established the first day of creation as Sunday 23 October 4004 BC, by the arguments set forth in the passage below, Ussher calculated the dates of other biblical events, concluding, for example, that Adam and Eve were driven from Paradise on Monday 10 November 4004 BC, and that the ark touched down on Mt Ararat on 5 May 2348 BC `on a Wednesday’.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Pax2u,
            I do not have more patience than you, trust me. Like I told you, yesterday, I’ve been there. I still struggle with it. It comes from the sin of pride, I believe.
            Keep praying! I will too. We must let the Holy Spirit work through us, which takes much prayer. We, who are Confirmed, have the gifts of the Spirit. We need to call on Him, to use these gifts.
            If I can do it, I know that you can, too. Your fidelity to the Truths of our Faith is evident. Merry Christmas!
            Saint Joseph, Pray for us!
            Our Lady of Perpetual Help, Pray for us!
            Christ our Savior, Have mercy on us.

    • pax2u

      who are your Christian brothers and sisters?

    • Wingnut

      Neiman, I agree with you and not only me but Paul does as well. He states that he is glad that he’s able to make a living as a tent maker, so that he doesn’t have to take any money for preaching! He didn’t want anyone to say that he’s only preaching for the money! Sadly, I’ve only ever heard this preached by one pastor in all the years I’ve been going to church, and he didn’t take up a collection!

      • Neiman

        Thank you.

        However, it is important that lay Christians provide financial support for their pastor or other full-time ministers, it is important for the person giving to not muzzle the ox as Paul says. That does not mean to support them as so many are today living in mansions, driving luxury cars, wearing expensive clothes and otherwise living far above the lifestyles of their average congregant. Read what Jesus said about Peter, you don’t look for His ministers wearing expensive clothes or living in mansions, they are supposed to be servants and not masters.

        What bothers me about the Christian haters here is that they want to use the tax laws to force Christians to submit their faith to the state. I want these ministers to voluntarily reject such tax breaks. If the ministry has value, if the Holy Spirit is behind it, He will support it through the giving of His children.

        • pax2u

          at this advent season I should forgive you of your hatred of my faith

          I forgive you and will pray for you

          Merry Christmass

      • Frank

        I sat under a pastor for 2.5 years that was anointed by God that worked a full time job. God one time sent the Holy Spirit to a service he was to preach that was so heavy like in the OT filling of the temple where the priests couldn’t do their work.

  • vdomkr

    Government overreach.

    • http://www.thebajeezus.com/ The Bajeezus

      What is government overreach? Giving tax breaks to a theme park, or attaching boiler-plate provisions when granting the tax breaks?

  • https://www.facebook.com/robert.rogers.1804 robert

    I am a devout Christian. However, a theme park is not a house of worship. You can’t expect to get state tax breaks running a religious theme park while wanting the benefit of a house of worship. Get over it.

    • http://aebrain.blogspot.com Zoe_Brain

      No-one is saying that this is a house of worship.

      It is a religious for-profit corporation, so gets the same immunity from laws that churches do. Not just discrimination laws, either. Fortunately most religious groups don’t realise what the Religious Freedom Restoration Act says, so continue to obey fire safety laws, zoning laws, etc. even if they think they are against their religion.

      Ken Hamm’s picked up on it though.

  • raytheist

    Answers in Genesis is a decidedly religious endeavor, with a specifically narrow religious focus. The Ark Encounter is an entertainment venue, a theme park, loosely based on religious fables common to more than one religion. The AiG can hire within its religion, but taking tickets or selling soft drinks at a theme park is not at all a religious activity and there is no need to restrict hiring based on religion.

    • http://aebrain.blogspot.com Zoe_Brain

      The AiG can hire within its religion, but taking tickets or selling soft
      drinks at a theme park is not at all a religious activity

      It doesn’t have to be. Religious entities have immunity from prosecution for breaking most laws now regardless of the nature of their activity, religious or not. It specifically says that in the legislation.

  • http://www.washingtondcevangelists.com Washington DC Evangelists

    Maybe you could have a knowledge test, it would be good anyways for the fake Christians that can’t even tell you what the 10 Commandments are, nor where to find them in the Bible. Also, ask them what the Gospel is, most “Christians” can’t even do that.

    • http://www.thebajeezus.com/ The Bajeezus

      I could answer those questions quite handily. Could I be hired?

      Similarly, I can quote The Lord of the Rings pretty handily. Can my discriminatory Hobbit Land get some taxpayer cash?

  • pax2u

    I pray for those who hate Christians, and those who call themselves “christian” with out a denominational doctrine who hate Christians

    • Nick_from_Detroit

      Your comments in this combox are not helpful, Pax2u. You are not performing corporal works of mercy with such behavior. You’re trolling.
      Ask your priest if your actions are consistent with the CCC and Catholic teaching, okay?

  • Paul Alan Whitehouse

    If you want public funds, you gotta play by the rules. You want to discriminate in hiring, you can do that as a religious organization under the law, but you cannot collect public taxpayer money while doing it. That’s how it works. Grow up and deal with it, theocrats.

    • http://aebrain.blogspot.com Zoe_Brain

      I’m afraid you’re incorrect.
      That’s what should be the case, but under existing law – the State Religious Freedom Restoration Act – Ham’s correct.

      He reorganised the company as a for-profit religious entity.

      So he has to obey all restrictions regarding for-profit organisations, and in return gets the same tax breaks as other commercial entities do.

      However, because of the RFRA he doesn’t have to obey any laws he claims conflict with his religion, unless a) The State can show not just an Interest, but a *compelling* interest – so human sacrifice is right out – and also b) That the law is the most narrowly crafted way of implementing that. b)’s the kicker, there’s *always* a narrower way possible.

      Moreover, it prevents the state from imposing conditions on a religious entity they don’t impose on anyone else. So no “special conditions” like preventing them from taking advantage of their religious exemption from obeying laws. Even if they are for-profit.

      Bottom Line – the RFRA *does* allow Christians to break most laws with impunity and hide behind the Bible. Not just discrimination law, though they’ve not picked up on that yet.

      Now you might think and I might think this is a terrible state of affairs. But it’s what the Legislature made law.

  • Dan

    That’s not correct. The state will not give them a rebate on their tax status because they plan to discriminate in hiring only Christians.

  • http://www.thebajeezus.com/ The Bajeezus

    Ah, the old Dominionist argument: Stop discriminating against my right to discriminate! You can’t bring your soccer ball to the park and expect to play baseball. You want tax payer money for your attraction, you play by the rules like everyone else. Your adherence to your particular philosophy doesn’t give you special exemptions from laws. Being Christian is one thing, subscribing to Ken Hamm’s version of Christianity is just this side of treason.

    • Joel Saint

      “…subscribing to Ken Hamm’s version of Christianity is just this side of treason.”

      Overreach much???

      • http://www.thebajeezus.com/ The Bajeezus

        Is it? Maybe a little, that’s why I qualified with, “just this side of.” What we have here are a group of people that wan the benefits of living in a secular pluralist society, until our rules conflict with a celestial dictator’s rules. The same with gay wedding cakes and Hobby Lobby (with the Ark Encounter being a more extreme example). They keep trying to define this as a religious freedom issue, but what it really is is religious exceptionalism. “I hold these beliefs, so I don’t have to follow the rules everyone else does.” At the very least, capitulation to Hamm’s demands would be a violation of the establishment clause. But don’t imagine that this will stop here: give ’em an inch… I’m just curious how people justify and rectify the disparity between their two governments. Which is it? Are they citizens of the US, or God’s subjects first?

        • Joel Saint

          You are flat out delusional.

          I, for one, am not interested in the “benefits” of a “secular pluralist society. That’s already been tried in the French Revolution (recall the goddess of reason) and the bolshevik revolution, not to mention God haters like Mao Tse Tung and Pol Pot.

          But hey, TB, if you don’t want the influence of Christianity, there’s always North Korea; I hear it’s pretty secular over there.

          Meantime, up until the early 60’s, the Bible was regularly read in our thousands of public schools in this country. I guess those children, parents, and teachers were all somehow “just this side of treason.”

          And yes, you and I are subjects of Jesus Christ. It is He that created us after all, and it is He, not you, not me, not Ken Ham, not Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris, or the Dalai Lama, but Jesus Christ who will judge the world in righteousness.

          Where will you stand on that day?

  • Matthew N Renee

    All I have to say is when this thing is built, it is going to be amazing. Tax rebate or not lets support this and wow let it be another arrow in our quiver. Creation alone is enough evidence of our Creator but let us continue to proclaim Jesus any and every way we are called to. Negativity is cool too because God is bigger then naysayers and road blockers. Our God can make new roads and turn road blocks into speed bumps! People should be trying to prevent and hinder our efforts because the truth can be scary. The wrath and judgement of God can cause more then trembling. The world continues to build their idols. Towering buildings of commerce and greed. Mansions of boys playing at lust. While they build their idols and call their discrimination good business we will build our ICONS showing how awesome our God is. A visual aid is never enough because it requires a moving of the Spirit to really change a person so let us be prayerful for friends, families, and enemies to come to know Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. Amen?

    • http://www.thebajeezus.com/ The Bajeezus

      As atheists, we feel the same way. Read every book, build every temple, every representation of Biblical matter you can. Build that ark and really let people decide for themselves how believable it is. “The truth will out,” as the man said. In the meantime, however, we live in a country with pretty fair laws that protect those who don’t necessarily believe in this, and we have to make sure ALL Americans are protected.

      • Matthew N Renee

        We can agree to that!! The truth always rises to the top of the dung heap and cleans itself off and takes flight!! Protect ALL Americans equally. That is all we can ask. BUT when people lobby for certain things and push certain agendas then it is not surprising to get a counterbalance. Absolute truth exists and instead of saying we cannot know it, lets try knowing Him. It is interesting that absolute truth does exist so by logic it has to be unchanging… name something in space, time, and matter that does not change. Ever.

        • http://www.thebajeezus.com/ The Bajeezus

          When you meet an atheist, chances are she did everything she could to know Him. The vast majority of us come from religious households, we just require some kind of proof of the existence of an authority before we then consider whether we ought to submit to it. The thing is, humans have never entertained a hypothesis for as long as we have the god hypothesis, and with so little to recommend the hypothesis. By all means, keep searching and trying to know, but without any concrete evidence, as a society we can’t base anything serious like taxes and laws on simple faith. What we do know is what we have here in the material world, and that’s a lot of different kinds of folk. The American experiment works because we treat each other equally, without preference or restriction toward anyone, especially based on their beliefs. We’re all searching in our own ways, but this Dominionist stuff is setting us back while we do it.

          • Matthew N Renee

            I agree with a couple of your points but I also know you are not searching nearly hard enough if you call yourself an atheist already. I would not give myself that title until I was on my death bed and was absolute sure without a shadow of a doubt AND no man or woman can be that sure. If you think so you are delusional. No one knows for certain what happens when they close their eyes for the last time but I do know one thing for certain. Nothing creates nothing. I also believe Jesus died for my sins and said He was my only way to salvation. No other person even qualifies to be God unless He can do that much. Save me from myself. And Jesus is the only one to do that. I’ll go with Him anywhere. They can make one size fits laws all they want but eventually Christians who hold to the truth will not fit because we will not give in. We will not tire. We will break. We will love you until it hurts while also holding on to a morality not made up by ourselves but given to us by God.

          • http://www.thebajeezus.com/ The Bajeezus

            No atheist would claim to know positively that there is no god. Atheism is the rejection of the god claim, not a positive assertion that there is no god. That’s super key. “There is no god” would be a remarkable claim, and would require proof. We simply negate the idea as not having enough merit, but we wouldn’t ignore proof were it shown to us.

            When we first came up with the god idea, thousands of years ago, we didn’t have methods for reason, logic, and science. But given those qualities now, in a philosophical vacuum, like our ancestors had, we’d have a really interesting discussion. We’d ask: “The Universe: how and why?” We’d take all hypotheses. Someone would say, “God, maybe?” and we’d say, “Interesting, what proof do you have?” Until any proofs were presented, we’d table the discussion as not yet worth considering.

            Your mention of morality being given by God is the perfect reason for that. Simply looking at the Bible, God doesn’t give morals so much as he gives laws, and prescribes punishments for breaking those laws. We’re only assuming those laws are moral because they come from a god, but that’s circular reasoning. True morality comes from generations of writing and discussion, arguments and experience. There can’t be absolute morality, and our modern society is evidence of that – – otherwise we wouldn’t be wearing clothes of different fabrics, or eating shellfish. We’d still have slaves, or have different lunch counters for black people.

            Your belief that Christ dying for your sins is a good thing is the perfect example. By my moral compass, scapegoating isn’t very high on the morality scale. Not only that, but the idea that we are born with a stain (sin) or that we’re destined to stain ourselves doesn’t jive with any true morality I know of. If I were there, and someone told me Jesus was about to die for my sins, I would try to stop it, at all costs, or at least say no thanks. Because somebody might be able to take a punishment for me, but the responsibility for my shortcomings still rests with me. Personally, I don’t see a way around that, morally, but that’s not to say you’re not moral for believing the opposite. It just means that absolute morality is literally impossible.

            But if you WANT absolute morality, you not only have to prove the moral authority exists, but that there’s a reason to obey the authority. Under those circumstances, I think most atheists would agree to live under those guidelines.

          • Matthew N Renee

            Keep searching then. I think you life depends on it. Eternally speaking. Choose the title agnostic. Run with it. Don’t reject anything and keep searching.

          • http://www.thebajeezus.com/ The Bajeezus

            Eh, agnosticism is just limp-wristed atheism. Agnostics say, “We, being humans, can’t know,” which is admirable on its face. But the track record of natural explanations trumping supernatural ones is exactly 100%. It’s never gone the other way. Statistically, there’s no reason to imagine we won’t figure it all out sooner than later. I promise to keep my spiritual options open, I always do, but in order to respect myself, I have to maintain some level of skepticism when someone tries to foist hypotheses on me without anything to back it up.

  • barbbfly

    My friend who runs an artstudio for people with mental illness , not christian! did not recieve $$$ from the gov’t here in winnipeg , Canada cuz HE DIDN’T WANT TO PLAY BY THEIR RULES. the end

  • MountainDewFan4

    I find it so ironic that to create a replica of the Biblical Ark it is going to take hundreds of people, probably dozens of gigantic cranes and other equipment and millions and millions of dollars. — But we are supposed to believe that Noah was able to do this all by himself over 2,000 years ago with no machines … and he was also able to get all the animals into it …. LOL (literally I am actually laughing out loud thinking of it.)

    And here’s a question that not many people ask. “If God is so powerful, why the Heck did he need Noah to build the arc for him? Why didn’t he just build it himself … or better yet, why didn’t he just snap his fingers and make all the people disappear?” — Shhh, you’re not supposed to think of things like that.

    • Gary

      Good questions. We don’t know what kind of machines Noah had. Not much is known about those who lived before The Flood. There are answers to your questions, but you may never learn what those answers are.

      • MountainDewFan4

        The answers are simple …. It was a made up story like Star Wars.

        • Gary

          No, it is history, not fiction. But I am aware that many people believe it is fiction. Some believe the entire Bible is fiction. Opinions vary. You have to hope that your opinion is true. If you are wrong, you are in a lot of trouble.

          • MountainDewFan4

            I gotta admit that was one of the most polite theist to atheist comments that I have read in a while. Thank you. That is a very refreshing change.

            I happen to be one of those people that feel that the whole Bible is fiction. I have seen nothing to make me believe that the stories are no more than myths intertwined with actual people and places. Similar, if you will, to King Kong which is a made up story which takes place in a Real world place called New York.

            If I were to be able to witness miracles today as spectacular as the ones written about in the Bible, it might be a different story (no pun intended.) If I were to see people living to be 800 years old as they did in the Bible, or if people who prayed were always granted their wishes … well again I might start to believe things. However, I have never seen anything which couldn’t be explained by scientific means.

          • Gary

            You might not believe this, but the truth is, if you won’t believe the Bible now, you would not believe it even if you saw a miracle.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Of course I can not say with certainty. However, I do not believe in Bigfoot or aliens either. The main reason is that the “proof” for these is very slim. Blurry pictures and some recordings of strange noises doesn’t really prove anything. However, if a family of 5 Bigfoots were captured, had their DNA analyzed by respected researchers and put into a zoo for all of humanity to see, well then … I would probably be a believer.

            Similarly, if I was to watch a true miracle, it would make it very hard for me to continue to not believe. However, all of the “miracles” which are happening now can all be explained through science or coincidence. An old man battles cancer and is then suddenly cured … science can explain that one. An image of Jesus appears on the side of a building … coincidence, I could also show you an image that looks alot like Darth Vader … doesn’t mean that he is real. No what I would need to see is something way beyond science. Something like people living for 800 years, something like god making severed limbs grow back instantly. Or … ya know .. god just suddenly showing up in the middle of Time Square granting wishes to everyone.

          • kkb

            To Gary, finding his car keys is a freaking “miracle.” Lunatics see “miracles” in idiocies.

          • kkb

            Obviously you live in a world based on fear that you’ll be in trouble. Fairy tales for cowards.

  • Matthew N Renee

    Here are 11 things to do to be an atheist:

    1. Deny the Book of Genesis–which explains that we live in a “fallen” creation—evidenced by disease, pain, suffering and death. Then complain about how God (who you believe doesn’t exist) allows disease, pain, suffering and death.

    2. Expect God to feed starving children, while humanity spend trillions of dollars (that could feed starving children) on war, porn, gambling, entertainment, etc., as well as on space exploration–trying to find out what the Book of Genesis already tells us.

    3. Ignore the Bible’s instructions on how to contain infectious diseases through quarantine, and complain when it spreads.

    4. Believe the scientific impossibility that nothing created everything, and then crown yourself intelligent for believing the impossible.

    5. Believe the insanity that nothing is actually something. Then give yourself another intelligence crown.

    6. Believe atheist sites that tell you that Einstein, Lincoln, Carl Sagan, Mark Twain and many others were atheists when in truth none of them were so foolish as to embrace atheism.

    7. Regularly have fellowship with other atheists to strengthen your faith and to tell each other that you have no beliefs.

    8. Go to Christian sites and push your narrow-minded and unthinking views on strangers, as though you were some sort of religious zealot.

    9. Sin your wicked little heart out and “enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season,” because in your own mind you have dealt with God and the consequences of sin.

    10. Don’t read the book, “You Can Lead an Atheist to Evidence But You Can’t Make Him Think.”

    11. Don’t watch the DVD, Evolution’s Achilles’ Heels

    • Zachary Chastain

      1. Deny the Book of Genesis–which explains that we live in a “fallen” creation—evidenced by disease, pain, suffering and death. Then complain about how God (who you believe doesn’t exist) allows disease, pain, suffering and death.

      What kind of strawman BS is this list? I don’t know any atheists who complain about how god does or doesn’t do anything, because they don’t believe he exists. Do you complain about how Zeus or Thor aren’t doing enough to fix the problems in the world?

      I’ve seen forms of this question posed as part of debates between theists and atheists to make a point, and granted that is usually by those of the lowest intelligence among us as it’s a poor, circular argument, but no atheist is genuinely walking around thinking “Man, none of the deities of the world’s 5,000 religions, none of which I believe in, are doing enough to solve the world’s problems!”

      2. Expect God to feed starving children, while humanity spend trillions of dollars (that could feed starving children) on war, porn, gambling, entertainment, etc., as well as on space exploration–trying to find out what the Book of Genesis already tells us.

      WHAT? Atheists, who don’t believe god exists, are expecting god to feed starving children? You didn’t actually talk to any atheists or make any effort to learn anything about them while making this list, huh?

      No atheist expects gods to do anything, they’re all imaginary. Solutions to the problems that impact our growing global society, like hunger, are solved through science. You can pray all day, food won’t rain down from the sky, scientists and farmers will provide the solutions, not gods.

      3. Ignore the Bible’s instructions on how to contain infectious diseases through quarantine, and complain when it spreads.

      Would be nice to have a verse for reference here, as I’m not aware of any such instructions in the Bible and it would be interesting to see whether this is a valid claim. Beyond that, quarantine isn’t ignored by germ science, rather quarantine fits in quite well with germ theory. If bacteria, viruses, and other microbes spread disease, then preventing exposure to someone who is carrying those microbes will prevent the disease from spreading.

      Have you ever heard of the CDC? Anyone ever taught you about washing your hands? How could you believe that atheists don’t believe in germ theory? Do you really believe that?

      4. Believe the scientific impossibility that nothing created everything, and then crown yourself intelligent for believing the impossible.

      It wouldn’t really be very scientific to rule anything empirically impossible or possible until it can be tested and demonstrated in a repeatable and verifiable way. It’s not very scientific to say that the Big Bang Theory is scientifically impossible without any real proof of that beyond faith. Also, there’s nothing in the Bible describing how the universe itself was created, just our tiny little corner of it, so there’s really nothing about the Big Bang Theory itself which can’t fit very easily with your own religion or most others.

      If there were a god, he would have to create everything somehow, right? The Christian story of creation doesn’t say “god blinked the Earth into existence and everything was just there, all ready to go on day one.” So why would that same god create the universe all at once, instead of with a bang, and letting it expand and take form over time? A religious person could posit that god was the driving force behind the Big Bang. There really is no conflict between your religion and this scientific theory, so I don’t understand why it’s on a list about atheists.

      Also, the Big Bang Theory doesn’t posit that “nothing” created everything. The Big Bang has been theorized to have occurred as the result of a black hole from an alternate universe, the collapse and then rapid expansion of a universe which existed before ours, and more. The theories that mainstream science gives the most credence to fit within our current understanding of physics and theoretical physics.

      As for whether the event itself happened, we have observable background radiation which proves that the universe started with a very powerful blast. This radiation permeates all of the known universe in a consistent way. This means that it would have to have been there at the conception of the observable universe, to be everywhere so consistently.

      5. Believe the insanity that nothing is actually something. Then give yourself another intelligence crown.

      I’m not even sure what this one is supposed to be talking about. That’s how far removed this list is from actual atheism. I don’t even know what it’s referencing anymore. 🙂

      6. Believe atheist sites that tell you that Einstein, Lincoln, Carl Sagan, Mark Twain and many others were atheists when in truth none of them were so foolish as to embrace atheism.

      Did you become a Christian after seeing a list of celebrities who were Christians and thinking “Well, that’s my favorite actor/writer/whatever, I have to join up!

      No? Well perhaps you’ll understand why I would find it insulting and demeaning that you would even entertain the idea that my standards are that low as well? My thoughts are my own, not based on which celebrities may or may not have shared them.

      7. Regularly have fellowship with other atheists to strengthen your faith and to tell each other that you have no beliefs.

      Change “atheists” to “Christians” and “you have no beliefs” to “the Christian god is real” and then you’re describing church. Meanwhile, atheists don’t go to church, and many make a point of having a diverse group of friends, and since many of us grew up in religious families but haven’t disowned them, most of us have plenty of religious friends and families. Personally I have friends who are Christian, Muslim, atheist, and Buddhist.

      I don’t make any special effort to “fellowship” with other atheists, and atheism isn’t a faith. The concept of “fellowshiping” is pretty well the domain of religions. Atheism is a lack of religion, which is quite different. I understand that you have a very different world view and that it’s hard to understand, but as someone who was raised Christian and is now an atheist, I have a perspective from both sides and the differences are quite clear.

      I also don’t make any special effort to befriend or associate with people based on their religious beliefs. None of my Christian friends are friends because they are Christians, and none of my atheist friends are my friends because they are atheist, they just happen to also be those things. Their beliefs are not the reasons I like those people and why I chose to be friends with them.

      8. Go to Christian sites and push your narrow-minded and unthinking views on strangers, as though you were some sort of religious zealot.

      This junk just popped up in my FB newsfeed because a Christian friend shared it. It’s not as though I go out of my way to look for it, but once you’ve read a few really ignorant comments, you can’t help but respond to them. 🙂

      Christians do the exact same thing on websites that aren’t meant to cater to their views. Everyone has a right to express their opinion, and there is no website where certain people aren’t allowed to visit, read, and post.

      9. Sin your wicked little heart out and “enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season,” because in your own mind you have dealt with God and the consequences of sin.

      Ah, this misconception again. 🙂 Here’s the basics. As an atheist I don’t believe that morality is objective or that it comes from any divine source, your god or anyone else’s included.

      However, I do believe in subjective morality. I try to be a good person, not because I think god is watching me and keeping a tally of every bad thing I do, but because I have this thing called empathy which makes me naturally not want to do bad things to other people. Much of my morality is similar to your own. Don’t steal, don’t kill, try to be fair and honest with others, and help your fellow man where you can.

      I just do those things because I feel like they’re the right thing to do, and because I feel good for doing them. Not because I think a god wants me to.

      It’s the stick vs the carrot. Some people need the stick (threat of punishment), but some people can be motivated by the carrot (the inherent benefits of doing the right thing). I’m sure not all Christians view god as the stick, but the idea that atheists have no morals or just reject god so they can sin is ridiculous. 🙂

      10. Don’t read the book, “You Can Lead an Atheist to Evidence But You Can’t Make Him Think.”

      Never heard of it. I hope the arguments in it are better than this list! 🙂

      11. Don’t watch the DVD, Evolution’s Achilles’ Heels

      Evolution is a scientific theory. People like to treat it like the antithesis to the Christian creation story, and technically it could be, but not all atheists accept evolution. Some have other theories, and expect that evolution is wrong or at least imperfect, but that this doesn’t automatically mean that god did it either, that there must be some other natural answer that we haven’t discovered yet.

      There’s even an “ancient astronaut” theory, which is basically the idea that aliens from another planet either created humans, bred with some other hominid to produce modern day humans, or otherwise meddled with the evolution of life on Earth. It’s essentially an intelligent design theory without the need for a proper god, just a more advanced race of mortals that evolved elsewhere long before us. Technically there’s no god there, just movie monsters, so an atheist could believe this theory instead of evolution and still be an atheist.

      Basically, my point is that evolution doesn’t equal atheism. Granted, most atheists that I’ve come in contact with accept evolution because it is the best scientific theory we currently have available to explain how life on Earth evolves, but not all do, and you don’t have to accept evolution to be an atheist.

      To sum it all up, I didn’t respond to and ridicule this list to be a jerk. It’s just pretty clear that you don’t really know anything about what atheists are actually like, and I wanted to clear up some of these misconceptions for you. I recognize that there probably are some people who fit these stereotypes out there, but I assure you that the majority of us are nothing like this, and also that for a few of these entries, I’m 99.9% sure that no atheist has ever thought what the list suggested. 🙂

      If you care about finding middle ground with atheists, whether it’s to befriend them, preach more effectively to them, or just to understand them better, then you have to shed misconceptions and actually understand them.

      If you just want to debate them/ argue with them, then you should probably still try to actually understand them. Otherwise they’re just going to laugh at your misconceptions and make fun of you, and of course not take you seriously because you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about regarding atheism and atheists.

    • Dru James

      Here are 11 things to do to be a Christian:

      1. Molest little boys and have your church protect you
      instead of the victims.

      2. Refuse to take your sick children to a hospital because
      an old book tells you to just pray it away.

      3. Know that you can do any sick and evil thing you want,
      because after you do, all you have to do is repent and all is forgiven.

      4. Stone your children to death if they disobey you.

      5. Stone a bride to death if she’s not a virgin.

      6. Use the Bible to justify your own bigotry.

      7. Deny the rights of others because “gasp” they
      have a different opinion than you.

      8. Condemn those who observe a different religion than you.

      9. Actually believe that unicorns, satyrs (men with goat
      legs), cockatrices (rooster-serpents that kill when looked upon) Dragons and
      other such silly things are real.

      10. Ignore the fact that
      Atheist make up less than 0.2 % of the prison population.

      11. Ignore the Treaty
      of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states:
      “The government of the United States is not in any
      sense founded on the Christian religion.”

      • kkb

        Right on.

    • kkb

      blah, blah, indoctrinate blather. Blah. Idiocy. Sad, sad indoctrinated idiocy.

  • Gary

    Theistic evolutionists deny the Bible because they believe creation is an ongoing process instead of a six day event, as the Bible says it is. And, they also put themselves at odds with most evolutionists by claiming that God had a hand in evolution.

  • thoughtsfromflorida

    The attraction is a business providing public accommodation. As such, it is required to abide by the hiring laws in Kentucky as well as at a federal level. The attraction itself is not a “religious organization”.

  • BarkingDawg

    Ham is a con man. this park will never be completed.

    ’nuff said

  • Theodore Cyrene

    Ken Ham originally told state officials and the City of Williamstown, KY that no one would be required to sign a statement of faith. After the original agreement expired due to lack of funding for the project Ken Ham had to resubmit an application for the tax incentives. It was denied because he clearly had changed his position on discriminating while hiring leaving him ineligible for tax incentives according to the Kentucky State Constitution.

    If you read the letter from the State of Kentucky posted on the AiG website and the attached image of a statement by Mayor Skinner of Williamstown you will see this is the truth. Here’s a link to the letter: http://cdn-assets.answersingenesis.org/doc/articles/2014/letter-from-secretary-stewart-12-10-14.pdf

    Ken Ham is obviously lying about what transpired and he is placing the blame on those nasty “secularists” and “evolutionists” who he claims are conspiring to sink his ship.

  • Sarah Jones Geer

    Except Ark Encounter ISN’T a religious organization under the law. It’s a FOR PROFIT venture. This means you can’t get religious exemptions and you can’t discriminate in hiring or anything else.

    See, Ken Ham wants to have his cake and eat it too. He wants to call it a “ministry” and a “religious organization” so he doesn’t have to follow the rules on nondiscrimination and taxation, but says it’s a for-profit when he wants the government to give him money. Can’t be both. either you’re a religious organization- in which case you don’t qualify for that tax exemption money in the first place- or you’re a for profit business and have to follow the same rules as every other business. That means you can’t restrict hiring to just Christians- it’s against the law.

  • Jeff

    I don’t know all the details of Ken Ham’s case, but I’m assuming he has the same legal basis as any other religious organization that is tax-exempt, churches in particular. For example, consider a newly formed Baptist church… no one demands that this church hire non-Christian workers. Why can’t the government just “live and let live”? They certainly have no problem handing out tax-payer cash to non-citizens… perhaps if Mr. Ham was a non-citizen he would be better off?

    No doubt there’s more serious matters the government could be attending to, but let’s not commit suicide by holding our breath. Mr. Ham should probably just forfeit the tax-exemption and pay the government their “contribution”, but only if he can’t win the legal battle.

    On the other hand, if he is using public money for his project, then it’s only just that he put the same amount back into the public’s coffers.

    • kkb

      Well, where do YOU think he got the $$$? From cult indoctrinates living low.

  • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

    Now, what would Ham say if a muslim group applied for tax breaks from the state to build a park dedicated to Islam, and hire only Muslims?

    I expect Ham, and all of his supporters would go straight into high Earth orbit, demanding that their tax dollars not be spent in support of Islam.

    Do any supporters agree with this rational? If not, why not?

  • tchowski

    Stand up to the Radicalized Christofascist Bigots, before they take millions of YOUR tax dollars and then discriminate in hiring. Stand up to the Christian Agenda, before they come after YOUR family.