Report: Global Persecution of Christians Reached Historic Levels in 2014

Persecution Credit Andrew DunnSANTA ANA, Calif. — A watchdog organization that releases a report each year on the global persecution of Christians states that 2014 marked the highest level of hostility against Christians ever recorded, but believes matters will only get worse.

“While the year 2014 will go down in history for having the highest level of global persecution of Christians in the modern era, current conditions suggest the worst is yet to come,” Open Doors USA wrote in a press release on Wednesday.

The organization has released its annual “World Watch List,” which outlines the most dangerous places to live as a Christian. It notes that while there are a number of factors behind Christian persecution, “Islamic extremism is the main source of persecution in 40 of the 50 countries on the 2015 World Watch List.”

The exception to the statistic is North Korea, which was #1 on Open Doors’ list for the 13th consecutive year. There are estimated to be between 50,000 to 70,000 Christians imprisoned in labor camps in the communist country.

“The god-like worship of the leader, Kim Jong-Un, and his predecessors leaves little room for any other religions and Christians face unimaginable pressure in every sphere of life,” the group explains. “Meeting with other Christians is virtually impossible. Anyone discovered engaging in unauthorized religious activity is subject to arrest, arbitrary detention, disappearance, torture and/or execution.”

Also topping the list of most dangerous places to live as a Christian include Somalia, Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan.

“The only type of Christianity in Somalia is Christian converts from a Muslim background. Persecution in the country is very severe,” Open Doors notes. “Islamic religious leaders maintain publicly that there is no room for Christianity, Christians and churches in Somalia. Islamic terrorists, in the form of al-Shabaab, as well as other radical Islamic groups, have intensified the persecution of Christians.”

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Rounding out the top ten countries facing the most serious and prevalent persecution are Sudan, Iran, Pakistan, Eritrea and Nigeria. In Pakistan, an increasing number of women and children are said to be targets for rape and sexual assault.

“Pakistan’s Christians are caught in the crossfire between Islamic militant organizations and mobs that violently target Christians, and an Islamizing culture on the other hand that results in Christians being isolated from the rest of the population,” the organization explains. “The notorious blasphemy laws continue to have devastating consequences for minorities, including Christians. …Women and girls are experiencing violence every day; especially those from minority groups who are vulnerable and easy targets for rape, sexual abuse and kidnapping.”

The most extreme persecution was in the Middle East and in parts of Africa. In Iraq and Syria, Christians were among the hundreds of thousands who have fled the Islamic group ISIS in a mass exodus under threat of death, and in Nigeria, it is estimated that 10 people are killed each day by the Islamic group Boko Haram simply because of their faith.

“Even Christian-majority states are experiencing unprecedented levels of exclusion, discrimination and violence,” said David Curry, president and CEO of Open Doors USA. “The 2015 World Watch List reveals that a staggering number of Christians are becoming victims of intolerance and violence because of their faith. They are being forced to be more secretive about their faith.”

Photo: Andrew Dunn


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  • Fundisi

    It doubled over the previous year and exponentially, will grow in each succeeding year. Especially in the Middle East and Africa, but surely around the world.

    • Simon Hankins

      Just as Jesus prophesied.

      • Fundisi

        Yes, we need to remember it is YOU too and me, the enemy is determined to destroy every true Christian; and. we need to daily lift up every member of the Body of Christ in prayer.

        • pax2u

          Fundisi, I am sure that you would condemn someone like this “Neiman” fellow making false statements about the Bible

          Neiman Nick_from_Detroit•17 hours ago

          “WRONG! Jesus prophesied that Peter would be hung upside down, not that Peter would request it.”

          no wonder this “Neiman” fellow could not support his statement with a Bible Book, Chapter and Verse,
          very sad for someone to lie about the CHRISTIAN BIBLE

        • pax2u

          Neiman, oh I am sorry, Fundisi, do “true” Christians LIE about the Bible?

  • Will Keeler

    Then said Jesus unto his disciples, “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.”

    When we “take up” our cross, it literally means we know that we will persecuted because of our faith. Picking up our crosses is the willingness to endure shame, embarrassment, reproach, rejection, persecution, and even martyrdom for His sake.

    • Alex

      I disagree. Taking up your cross is not talking about persecution. I say this because it is linked to ‘denying yourself’. Denying yourself is denying your sinful desires and the flesh. Sin was defeated on the cross. The cross is not a picture of persecution, but a picture of the wrath of God against sin. It is the posture of your walk with the Lord.

      Regarding persecution: It is a gracious thing in God’s sight when we are persecuted for the Lord. We ought not to walk in fear of persecution, but rejoice in the blessedness that comes with it. Jesus talks about counting the cost of being His disciple later on in Luke 14.

      • Will Keeler

        Respectfully, I disagree with you. Taking up your cross IS talking about persecution. It is not linked to ‘denying yourself’ besides being one part of the same list. The statement contains three parts: 1. Deny yourself (suffer by your own choice) 2. Prepare to be persecuted by others (suffer because of others’ choices) 3. Follow Jesus.

        Answer this question for me- How can the cross be a picture of the wrath of God against sin BEFORE Jesus was crucified? Before he was crucified, the cross WAS a symbol of persecution. Your statement only makes sense AFTER Jesus was crucified.

        • Will Keeler

          This is from another source: (I’ll post the link at the bottom)

          When Jesus said, “Take up his cross,” the disciples saw poor condemned souls marching along a road with the instrument of their own death strapped to their backs. Carrying one’s cross meant walking to one’s death. That’s what the Lord wanted them to see. The disciples needed to perceive that following Christ was like putting on the instrument of their own execution. All but one of the twelve died as martyrs. Most of you won’t be martyred, but you will bear reproach and ridicule if you live for Christ (2 Tim. 3:12). You must be willing to suffer the indignities of a condemned criminal in service to Christ, should you be called to do so.

          http://www.gty.org/resources/study-guides/40-5150/winning-by-losing–the-paradox-of-discipleship

        • Alex

          Good point. Thanks for the meditation. I liked: The statement contains three parts: 1. Deny yourself (suffer by your own choice) 2. Prepare to be persecuted by others (suffer because of others’ choices) 3. Follow Jesus. I humbly retract my prideful boast of knowledge :), in Love brother

          • Will Keeler

            Humbly, I appreciate your comment. in Love my brother in Christ. We are family 🙂

  • Lisa

    I wonder how many of the dead are true Christians and how many are catholics or some other false christian religion. I am thinking of Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven.

    • Fundisi

      An impossible question to answer, of course. In one sense, we know that it is genuine members of the Body of Christ that Satan wants to kill. Yet, we know some of these martyred are Roman Catholics and some are of other false faiths. It is sad indeed to think that some killed for their Christian faith awake in hell, having been deceived. We can only pray that we are of the faith, tat we are His true children and for every family member, friend and others we know and leave it to God.

      • Lisa

        Very true Fundisi. Can I ask you-do you think people awake in hell? Aren’t they thrown into the lake of fire at the great white throne?

        • Fundisi

          Good question! A rule of parables is that if it mentions someone by a personal name, versus something impersonal like “Prodigal Son,” it relates an actual event. If you read about the Rich man and Lazarus, it tells us clearly that the rich man was in hell, in torment and very conscious. It also speaks of Lazarus and Abraham in Paradise, very much conscious. From that and other passages in the Old Testament, we know that once we cast off the flesh, which is called death, it never means annihilation or unconsciousness, death only and always only means separation of some kind. For everyone separation of the flesh and soul/spirit from the physical body in what is called death, for the lost everlasting separation from God in hell and for the righteous, only separation from life in this world, but never separation from God.

          I wrote a 144,000+ word dissertation on death and dying and feel very confident Scripture supports what I have just stated.

          • pax2u

            what denomination was the seminary that you attended?

          • Lisa

            Ya, I haven’t studied it like you have. I’ll have to start reading up on it all. Thanks for sharing what you know. So do you think when a believer dies they are in heaven then? I don’t know where it says people are actually in heaven when they die.

          • Fundisi

            Scripture says that to be absent from the body (physical death) is to be present with the Lord. Where is the Lord?

          • pax2u

            what is the Bible Book, Chapter and Verse?

          • Lisa

            What verse is that? I’ll have to think about these things again. Thanks for taking the time to answer.

          • pax2u

            as a self declared Bible expert Neiman is not expected to provide Bible Book, Chapter and Verse

          • Lisa

            Sounds like you have a problem with Nieman, I dont know him and can’t answer for him.

          • pax2u

            I have a problem with those who are willing to lie about the Bible to attack another Christian

          • Phipps Mike

            “Sounds like you have a problem with Nieman”, I think just about any Lutheran would have a problem with Neiman. His near death experiences have him believing in ridiculously crazy things such as faith healers actually being able to have unhumanly powers to heal.

          • wandakate

            I think only GOD does the real actual healing. He may use people to do the talking and performing but man can’t heal, only GOD is able to do that. Just like a surgeon will be used by GOD to do an operation on a person but the surgeon is not doing the healing, he is only doing the preliminaries to assist the person, but GOD is the healer, the master surgeon. He can heal us physically as well as spiritually.

          • Phipps Mike

            “Just like a surgeon will be used by GOD to do an operation on a person but the surgeon is not doing the healing, he is only doing the preliminaries to assist the person, but GOD is the healer, the master surgeon. ”
            Exactly. But the mumbo jumbo where an evangelist places his hands on a crippled person and heals them with his words instantaneously is ridiculous and insulting. No man walking this earth has any supernatural powers…period.

          • Fundisi

            II Corinthians 5: “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”

            Philippians 1:23 “I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;”

            Pulpit Commentary
            Verse 8. – “To be absent, etc.; literally, to be away from the home of the body, but to be at home with the Lord. To be present with the Lord. The hope expressed is exactly the same as in Philippians 1:23, except that here (as in ver. 4) he expresses a desire not “to depart,” but to be quit of the body without the necessity for death.”

          • wandakate

            Yes, he wanted to be present with the LORD, and he will be when his time comes at the resurrection of the dead and not before that time. He wanted to be out of his, what he described as his “earthly tent” and be in heaven in his home on high that was not made by human hands. We all strive for that same thing, to be out of our old aging bodies and to be with the LORD. I will be one day when He comes for me and takes me with Him. Not until then.

          • Lisa

            The thing that I keep thinking though is the dead in Christ rise first. If they rise first doesn’t that mean they aren’t in heaven? Why do they need to rise at all if they are with God in heaven?

          • Fundisi

            Another good question: When God talks about the dead in Christ. 1st, as I said “dead” means separated from something, in this case the mortal body, which we call death. 2nd, the Resurrection of the dead in Christ first, means they are to be joined with their resurrected bodies, those eternal bodies like that of Christ. Anticipating your next question, what do they appear like now in heaven? They are clothed in the Glorious Body of Christ, clothed in white, awaiting the resurrection of their bodies.

          • Lisa

            But why are they rising? If they are already in heaven, I don’t get why they rise first. I thought the martyrs were in heaven under the alter and were given white robes just to hold.

          • Fundisi

            Like so much in God’s Word, very human terms are used to aid in human understanding of spiritual things. To rise in their resurrected bodies is a term to say they will be united with them before those alive are thus translated from mortal to immortal.They don’t actually rise from some place, but are risen again into eternal life in their immortal bodies. We are getting to a place now where God does not speak with specificity, as these things are beyond our understanding.

            When we read of the martyrs that are surely parts of the Body of Christ, where they are located under the altar and well many, many things, we are left to speculate and that is dangerous and we can so easily err. So, pardon me if I don’t go any further, there are a host of things I do not know.

          • Lisa

            I don’t think you’re right fundisi. I’m reading 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. Why does it say that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. The dead in Christ will rise first. They go first to meet the Lord in the air. If they are already with Jesus in heaven why do they rise first? They are already with him? They have already preceded the living then.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Trouble in paradise! Now Fundisi-Neiman and Lisa are feuding.

          • pax2u

            only their Hatred of Christian Catholics and their willness to lie about the Christian Bible can keep them together
            but on the other hand it is no suprise that there are 30 thousand non Catholic Christian denominations, each believing that they are the only true “christians”
            we should pray to the Christian God Jesus Christ for them

          • Fundisi

            Why are you so given over to evil, to spirits of strife and division and hate? To lovingly disagree is not to feuding, we are one in Spirit and can discuss anything without any malice.

            You are surely possessed of demons to sow so much strife and hate. You rejoice in turmoil, divisions and hate, they are food for your wicked soul.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            We shall see how it turns out.

          • pax2u

            for someone who condemns Catholis to speak of being given over to evil, to the spirits of strife and division and hate
            talk about a hypocrite

          • pax2u

            evil is the one who is willing to lie about the Bible to advance their hatred of Christians, and then like a coward run away and change their name
            evil is accepting the hate of those who embrace the Westboro Baptist Church as long as they both hate Catholics
            there evil possessing them and consumnes their eternal soul
            we should pray for these evil souls and ask our Christian God Jesus Christ to forgive them their hatred of Christians, amen

          • wandakate

            I know for sure that satan and the demons “love” it when people feud. He came to steal, kill, and destroy. He loves it when we are upset with one another, and likes division among the people. As long as people are fighting and lying and killing and deceiving others he is in his glory. They are not however pleasing GOD as He hates all of it and wants unity and for the body of CHRIST to get along with one another. Love one another, as I have loved you was what He said. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

          • Fundisi

            Lisa, first you must remember the passages I gave you, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord – this is instantaneous. Why do I know this? Because in other places Jesus says we are already, in Spirit, seated with Christ in heavenly places, for us, in Spirit, eternity has already begun. Paul spoke of whether it was better to depart this physical life or to be with the Lord and surely he could not think it better to die and either be unconscious for perhaps thousands of years or cease to exist until the Resurrection. Surely these things could not be attractive to him. Then remember that Jesus said God is not the God of the dead but the living. Then that we are members of the Spiritual Body of Christ and surely His body does not cease to exist or become unconscious for centuries. I could go on, but there are just too many passages that make it clear that when we cast off these mortal bodies, we are present in Spirit with and in the Lord. God is not the God of the dead, but the living. We believers have eternal life NOW!

            Next, you must remember that the Resurrection is talking about our resurrected bodies, not our spirit nature. ” true believers; who die interested in Christ, in union with him, being chosen and blessed, and preserved in him from everlasting, and effectually called by his grace in time, and brought to believe in him; these, both their souls and bodies, are united to Christ, and are his care and charge; and which union remains in death, and by virtue of it the bodies of the saints will be raised at the last day:”

            It is their then immortal bodies rise, having been united with their soul/spirit nature and thus are said to rise as if from the grave, but it is only a manner of speaking, that we might understand how and when each saint now united with Christ will be then united with their immortal bodies as well.

          • Lisa

            Im just not seeing it that way. I just don’t see instantaneous like you do. He wants to be with the Lord, don’t blame him but I think he’s gonna wait to be with the Lord. I don’t think its a problem to wait patiently for the Lord since there is scripture that tells us exactly that. To die and know you fought the good fight and you die and will meet Jesus in the air-you rest for a little while and see Him again, that doesn’t sound so bad to me. As to the members of the body not everyone is a mouth or a leg, some are the little toe…etc. When you sit down do your feet rest? Still part of the body but not really doing much. God doesn’t let His body die out. Thess 4:16-17 For the Lord Himself will descend with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord. These verses are the reason I really can’t agree with you. Thanks, though for sharing your thoughts.

          • Fundisi

            This issue is not critical to the faith and you are free to believe what you want, what you do believe is, I believe, based more on your emotions than on God’s Word, but that is just my opinion. The only thing that is important is whether or not you are saved and on what biblical basis. If it is by God’s Mercy, His Grace ALONE, by faith in Christ and not based on any works of the flesh of any kind, then if we disagree on other issues, we can still rejoice in your salvation and move on.

            In my closing comments on this issue before us:

            “For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you” (Philippians 1:21-24). [There is not a word here about resting away from the presence of Christ.]

            Paul’s desire in life was to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ. If he lived, he could continue to labor for the Lord. If he faced execution, he would depart this life and be with Christ. He desired to be with his Savior, but if he remained on earth, he could continue to minister to others.

            To me it would seem that if Paul did not expect immediately upon his leaving this physical life (death) to be consciously in the presence of Christ, it would not only be contrary to God’s Word, it would border on lunacy. Lunacy? Yes, for him to think that if he died he would immediately be “with Christ” and yet all the while knowing that he would not really be with Christ in Person, would be the act of a lunatic, a liar and a heretic. Further, being in Christ is our rest from all our labors to serve Him and gain Heaven.

            As I said, you are free to believe what you choose, by your free will, as long as you are saved on a Biblical Basis, then I trust God, if He feels it important to your life will bring you into the truth on other issues.

          • Lisa

            I’m actually not basing this belief on my emotions. I could see what you are saying but for those verses. So now hopefully I’m saved because I don’t agree with you? I think you may have just insulted me.

          • Fundisi

            No, whether we disagree on some issues or not, I am glad and rejoice that you are saved.

          • Lisa

            Thanks I appreciate that

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            LOL! You get a free pass because Fundisi-Neiman senses that you hate Catholicism just as much as he does. You are simply being used in a game of “the enemy of my enemies is my friend.”

          • pax2u

            but she is still insulted
            no wonder that there are 30 thousand denominations each thinking that they are true
            and 30 thousand different theologies, each believing that they are correct

          • pax2u

            This is really an odd bunch
            Gary says that only 8% of Americans are true “christians”
            and he says 8% may be a high number
            James Grimes says that of the 30 thousand maybe only 3 are true “christian” churches
            Neiman changes his name to Fundisi when he can not support his lie about the Bible to support his anti Catholic hate
            Frank the ex Catholic who does not understand the Catholic Church
            and they become upset when they are referred to as the lunatic fringe,
            and now easily insulted lisa
            only Gary has a denomination as he supports the Westboro Baptist Church

          • Phipps Mike

            “Neiman changes his name to Fundisi” interesting! and thanks for that info…it just appears that as “Fundisi” he is more the “know it all” type.

          • pax2u

            poor Neiman the self declared Bible expert got busted
            He made a false statement about the Bible to support a fellow anti Catholic
            a few of us asked him to defend his statement with the actual Bible Book, Chapter and Verse,
            his answer was crickets
            When he was confronted with the actual cut and paste of his statement lying about the Bible to Nick from Detroit, he changed his posting name and avatar and just moved on
            not sure if that is arrogance or cowardice

          • Phipps Mike

            its cowardice. I would tell anybody here to their face, what I say here in print with just as much vehemence. My face is on my avatar and my address is easily accessible. I would fight to the death over my core beliefs.

          • pax2u

            honestly I really do not care about the theological beliefs of others, but when their theology is to hate and will fully lie about my faith then I defend my faith against there hatred
            I am thankful that this group of haters are actually a very small number that are the lunatic fringe, almost all of them have no denomination that would accept them, there is gary who is a Baptist, condemns a great Christian and Baptist Billy Graham and Gary defends the hate of the Westboro Baptist Church

          • wandakate

            Could it be a combination of the two? He is saying things that are not biblical. Going directly to heaven or hell at our death is not in the scriptures, however sleeping in the grave is there. JESUS said that death was a sleep. We die, the spirit departs from the body and we sleep (don’t know anything), until JESUS comes again at His appearing and raises the dead in CHRIST up from those graves. In the meantime we wait right there not knowing anything until that time. THAT is biblical, not what we have been taught in churches, but what GOD’s word tells us in the bible.

          • Phipps Mike

            “We die, the spirit departs from the body and we sleep ”
            he actually is in agreement with you on the soul still being separated and existent. Using the term “sleep” is misleading because it connotates that the body is still being used. Inactive or unknowing seems more feasible.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Isaiah 57:1-2,,,

            1 The righteous perish,
            and no one takes it to heart;
            the devout are taken away,
            and no one understands
            that the righteous are taken away
            to be spared from evil.
            2 Those who walk uprightly
            enter into peace;
            they find rest as they lie in death.

          • pax2u

            it was a different lie about the Bible
            He said that Jesus Christ may a prophecy that St Peter would be “hung” upside down, and could not and would not support it

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Isaiah 57:1-2 …..

            1 The righteous perish,
            and no one takes it to heart;
            the devout are taken away,
            and no one understands
            that the righteous are taken away
            to be spared from evil.
            2 Those who walk uprightly
            enter into peace;
            they find rest as they lie in death.

          • wandakate

            Okay, they find rest as they lie in death. Doesn’t sound like anybody is taking off for heaven does it? They simply “lie in death”. YES, they are waiting on JESUS to come. He said it’s an Adventist teaching, but it’s not, it’s a Bible teaching.
            Check out…
            Job 14:12,21…They lie down and rise no more till the heaven are no more. They shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
            Psalm 104:29…Thou takes away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
            Psalm 146:4…His breath goes forth, he returns to the earth, in that very day his thoughts perish.
            Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10…For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything. There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave, where we go.
            Daniel 12:3…And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and punishment.
            John 5: 28-29…The hour is coming when all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth, they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
            John 11:11-14…Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I will go that I may wake him up out of sleep…then JESUS said unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
            John 6:39…Of all which He has given me I should lose nothing, but shall raise them up again at the last day.
            They are NOT in heaven, they will sleep until JESUS comes. They will be raised up on the last day.
            They are not coming down from heaven, they are rising up to go there…People can’t argue with the word of GOD as it is written. Anything else is not going to hold up.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Yes Wandakate….I agree completely.

          • pax2u

            an anti Catholic insulting another anti Catholic, God does have a sense of humor

          • wandakate

            The real question is Fundisi, do we believe what JESUS himself said, or do we believe what Paul and Peter and all of the others said. And for me, I would prefer to believe the words of JESUS, and JESUS said, they are sleeping. Death to JESUS was a sleep. It was a time when as LISA said, when you wait. You did and you go to the grave and you wait. You sleep the sleep of death and the next thing you hear is that 7th trumpet, the LORD JESUS will then raise you up from the grave and He is the next thing you will see calling you up to Him so He can take you with Him. That is the glorious home. I like you have studied this, I have written 4 books about prophecy etc. and this is how I see it, b/c this is how it is written.

          • Fundisi

            You are wrong in every possible way.

            You don’t even know that when Jesus spoke in the Gospels or the Spirit of Christ was speaking through Paul, it was the very same Son of God, it was still Jesus speaking.

            I studied death and dying in great depth because of the false teachings of the 7th Day Adventists Church, the same false teachings you are regurgitating here. I wrote, published in a very limited edition and hold a copyright on a 144,000+ word dissertation on the subject of death from a Scriptural perspective. Death NEVER means actual sleep, or annihilation or any unconscious state of existence. Death only and always refers to some form of “separation.” But, as I said it is a waste of time discussing it with you, I know all your pat answers and misuse of Scripture.

          • Phipps Mike

            “Death only and always refers to some form of “separation.”
            yes, the separation of our soul from our bodies. We agree on something….how about that.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Isaiah 57:1-2 ….

            1 The righteous perish,
            and no one takes it to heart;
            the devout are taken away,
            and no one understands
            that the righteous are taken away
            to be spared from evil.
            2 Those who walk uprightly
            enter into peace;
            they find rest as they lie in death.

          • Fundisi

            What was your purpose in sending this to me?

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            It settles the “question” of what happens WHEN YOU DIE, and where you go.
            You didn’t understand that???

          • Fundisi

            A. You are wrong.
            B. This was the Old Testament and none of those souls went to Heaven as the Gospel was not yet preached, they were in Paradise, Abraham’s womb.
            C. In the parable of Abraham, the rich man and the Lazarus, we have a clear declaration by the Lord of the conscious state of the righteous and the lost after they depart this life. They were all conscious, aware of their state and could communicate.
            D. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord in no way even hints at their being unconscious.
            E. When Paul spoke of his dilemma of whether to depart and be with the Lord or stay and minister to the early Church in no way, shape, manner or form even hints at him thinking he would be unconscious in sleep after physical death. If it did, he was a lunatic and a liar, as He spoke there is no way he could think perhaps thousands of years of being unconscious, consciously being cut off from the Lord would be preferable to life here ministering to the saints.
            G. To be born again of His Spirit means we have already entered into eternal life in Christ and no part of His Body is unconscious.
            H. The resurrection only speaks of the believer being united with his now immortal body, not rising from death or sleep.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            I suppose if ISAIAH is “wrong”, then I would be “Wrong Too”.

            For YOU to even make such a primitive & childish response to THE WORD OF GOD only proves that the ONLY ONE that could possibly be “Wrong” here is YOU.

            Perhaps you need to go back to school to RELEARN your “ABC’S”????

            I’ll stick with the BIBLE……you continue with your childish “BULLET POINTS” which are NOT BIBLICAL at all.

          • Fundisi

            Every point was based on Scripture and you now it. You just will never accept the fact you could be completely wrong and are deceiving people by your 7th Day Adventist beliefs. Isaiah was talking about the old Testament saint and yet you perfer what Jesus said:

            A biblical principle is that if a specific name is used, it is not a parable only, but relates actual events:

            19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ 25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ 27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’” John 16

            Jesus talks of Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man very much conscious and able to see, hear and speak after their death. You simply cannot ignore what Jesus tells us, unless you reject Jesus.

            Jesus here is speaking to YOU: “…26″But regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, and the God of Jacob ‘? 27″He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken.”

            Also, ” 2 Corinthians 5:8 “We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.”

            How are we present with the Lord, unconscious? Dead? Or are we still in Spirit, very much alive and conscious.

            I will not go on, because you are stuck in the Old Testament, you do not believe that upon being born again in Christ, we are (Ephesians 2) “…5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,”

            We true believers have already begun eternal life in Christ, we cannot die, we cannot come into Judgment, we are now part of His Body, we are now seated with Him in Heavenly places, seated with Christ on His Throne as part is His Body and we here wait to be taken to heaven through what we call death or be translated in the Resurrection.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            There are several things I “Know” about YOU.
            One is….YOU’RE ALWAYS RIGHT, AND EVERYONE ELSE IS A MORON. (at least in your eyes)
            That shows in the first lines of everyone of your stupid posts.

            But, why should I bother to “STATE THE OBVIOUS”??

            Here is ONE THING you “Don’t Know”…..
            To God, and THE SPIRIT, there is NO SUCH THING AS “TIME”.
            Time doesn’t exist for GOD, or for the SPIRIT.

            That’s a CONCEPT that DESTROYS all of your stupid responses about “THOUSANDS OF YEARS WAITING IN SLUMBER”.

            The SPIRIT has NO CONCEPT OF TIME.

            Therefore….you are RIGHT when you say to be ABSENT FROM THE BODY IS TO BE IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD.
            But, you are WRONG if you think that couldn’t be MILLIONS OF YEARS IN PASSING before you are even AWARE of it.

            That’s how STUPID YOU ARE.

            Yes…you DIE, and the NEXT THING YOU SEE IS GOD.
            No…..it could be a THOUSAND MILLIONS OF YEARS before that moment takes place for all you know.

            PROVE ME WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Fundisi

            First, about your false accusation: I am confident in what I believe because it is all based on God’s Word after many decades of study and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. What good would it to anyone to sound an uncertain note?

            I have already proven you wrong by God’s Word. But a few last points, it does not matter if to the person a thousands years would be just a moment, Paul would be thinking a prolonged state of unconsciousness would be preferable to staying and ministering to the saints and that is lunacy. It would be a no brainer, he would rather stay and minister than being unconscious for perhaps thousands of years. It would deny the passages I showed you that all testify to a conscious existence after death and immediately being in the presence of the Lord. It would also deny that the martyrs under God’s Altar that were crying for justice were not really there, if they were unconscious. It would deny that the Apostles and prophets were really sitting on thrones surrounding God’s Throne and often falling down in praise, if they were unconscious. In every way your belief in an unconscious state after death are denied by God’s Word – not mine, by God’s Word.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Save it FUNGUS.

            You are also “confident” that I’m a 7th Day Adventist, yet, you couldn’t be further from the truth.
            You talk about making “ASSUMPTIONS”???

            All I need to ASSUME about you is that you’re an @SSHOLE, and I need to assume nothing more.

          • Fundisi

            Very unchristian of you and I will flag your post for language.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Flag YOURSELF for being an AGITATOR, and telling everyone “THEY ARE WRONG”.
            Flag YOURSELF for being an ARROGANT @SS.

          • Fundisi

            Well you undermine your every belief by acting so unchristian today. Not that in long times past I have not thus failed, so I am not placing myself above you.

            Your using symbols does not excuse your extreme anger and cursing. Christian New Network is a place where Christians can come and debate issues in the news, often about key doctrines of the faith. Yes atheists come here and others that do not share the faith, but there is no justification for your reaction today. It bespeaks some insecurities on your part.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            I’m not as good a LIAR as you are.
            I don’t PRETEND TO BE A SHEEP, and BITE PEOPLE’S HEADS OFF by insulting them with an OPENING SENTENCE “YOU’RE WRONG”.

            You’re what I call a PHONY CHRISTIAN who likes to see HIS NAME IN PRINT.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Telling people “YOU’RE WRONG” is not a DEBATE…..it’s an INSULT.
            You are a first class LIAR.

          • Lisa

            Not everyone is a 7th day Adventist who believes this. I don’t know if revelation55 is or not, or Wanda who you say is too. I’m not but I believe you sleep because the Bible does say that and you seem to not want to see that for some reason. I know you give your reasons but you are also given reasons why people don’t agree with you and it’s based in scripture as well-not made up.

          • Fundisi

            A. Read me responses below.
            B. What you believe is a 7th Day Adventist doctrine, whether you belong or not.
            C. If you will note these people rely on the Old Testament, a different dispensation and not of the New Testament dispensation of Grace.
            D. Jesus teaching of Lazarus, the Rich man and Abraham deny an unconscious state of existence.

          • Lisa

            Well I’m not 7th day Adventist and I saw this myself in New Testament scripture. Are you afraid if you look at a different point of view that you are being deceived by something that is believed by false Christians? Is that why you won’t take a look at it without getting angry? Ya point D being all mismatched together isn’t your strongest point especially the rich man.

          • Fundisi

            You cannot prove I was at all angry, just because I am confident and will challenge you and your fellow travelers.

            I have proven by God’s Word my every point and your side has not.

          • Lisa

            You seem angry that people don’t agree with you. I’m not on a side! I’m interested in the truth. And maybe that’s your problem it’s you against everyone who doesn’t agree with you. I think revelation55 is correct you treat people who don’t agree with you like we are poor unbelievers who don’t know scripture.

          • Fundisi

            You are wrong about me being angry at all, it is solely your subjective judgment because I disagree with you and am willing to defend what I believe.

            I do not care what your subjective opinion about me is or about your support for this fellow. How can I say what I believe and then sound an uncertain note? Should I say I am not sure, that I could be wrong? If so, then I have no ground to stand on, as I would not say anything unless I was confident I was correct and that always based solely on God’s Word. It betrays a sensitivity by you that you are upset because I can defend what I believe. One can like this fellow and you be believers and still be spiritual infants, wrong about what you believe because it is based on your emotions and not God’s Word.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            There you go AGAIN….saying “YOU’RE WRONG”.

            Do you have any other VOCABULARY to start a sentence with??

          • Lisa

            I wouldn’t say confident-arrogant yes. But that’s my poor infant opinion I guess. And no you haven’t defended what you believe to me as being right and true and that does not make me a spiritual infant, only wise because I don’t just trust in man but I look to God and the Bible for myself.

          • Fundisi

            Again, you have a right to your wholly subjective opinions.

            You have not argued here ever based on God’s Word, only your feelings and referring to arguments by others. It is good to be a Berean Christian, searching God’s Word, but IMO you have not done that, you are trusting in your emotions and IMO false teachings.

          • Lisa

            You like to argue with people-lol! You’re filled with pride and arrogance and you can’t see it. What you said about me is False, you are seeing what you want to see, yours isn’t the only opinion that counts buddy-even if you did write your 144,000 plus thesis.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Right On Lisa!!!!!

          • Lisa

            Thanks!

          • Fundisi

            A. So studying God’s Word in depth, depending on the Holy Spirit to guide me into Truth has no value? But, you and others offering mostly opinion and absent such study must be right?
            B. No, I do not like to argue, I do enjoy healthy debate that I might see if and when I am in error and by being challenged having to dig deeper and having my beliefs and faith strengthened thereby.

            C. Where did I say anything false about you?
            D. I sincerely hope and I do pray there is no arrogance and I daily seek the humility that only comes by the Holy Spirit; but it seems the only way to dispel that image with you is to: (a) Agree with you and your fellow 7th Day Adventist pals. (b) That I should say, ‘Gee I guess I may be wrong,” “This is only my opinion and you may be right, or in some other ways express doubts about what I believe to be God’s Word, so you will feel safe and vindicated in what you choose to believe?

            Yet, how can a person say they truly have faith and then offer all sorts of caveats and doubts? Where is the faith in that? How can God honor such a wishy washy faith? If a man has true faith in what he believes, especially based on God’s Word, how would it benefit you if I offered an unclear sound?

            If I say I believe Jesus died for my sins and by Grace alone I am saved, should I then say, ‘But of course I could be wrong?’ How can that be saving faith? How can I convince anyone else by having such a weak faith? So, if I confidently defend what I believe, based on God’s Word, you say that is arrogance, so to you I should be more humble and express doubts and better yet say ‘well maybe you are right and I am wrong?’ I don’t think it is true faith in God to express such doubts, while if proven wrong in whole or in part, certainly being ready to repent and change my beliefs.

          • Lisa

            You are arrogant and prideful in thinking you are the only one here who has studied God’s word. I have offered you scripture but you dismiss it out of have and the falseness is saying I am offering an emotional opinion when I on fact offered scripture. It seems to me that you are the emotional getting more haughty and cold when someone doesn’t agree with you. You can’t take correction often reverting to condescension towards the person you talk with. You are kidding yourself when you say you enjoy healthy debate. You don’t-you dismissed mine, wands and reveelation55 verses as having no value and yours only having the only value in the discussion. Then act as if we don’t even offer the right verses. Or we can’t read the Bible like you can. I can read the Bible, I have read the Bible, I have studied the Bible and I walk with God as well. And my points are valid. You don’t debate them you dismiss them and arrogantly act as if you are the only correct person here. The reason you fight so much with people for your opinion is you dismiss any others persons opinion and then they don’t want to listen to what you have to say because you don’t listen to them! Your not convincing anyone of anything right now, you’re driving them away. Haha you are full of pride-I don’t need you to agree with me to know what I know and think its true, God is with me too. Again condescension-me and my 7th day Adventist friends. Wonder why no one listens to you? I wonder at the person who doesn’t think they can be wrong or should be wrong-no one is infallible.

          • Fundisi

            Your hate and blatant lies against me are duly noted and we are done.

          • Lisa

            You are unteachable-run safely back to your own little world and be king.

          • Fundisi

            You are unteachable-run safely back to your own little world and be Queen.

          • Lisa

            Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

          • Fundisi

            It is certainly much better that your lies.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Look at what we have here!

            Oh, Magister was being such a “sower of division” when he recognized that things were proceeding in much the same way with Lisa as they go when Fundisi-Neiman “discusses” things with Catholics.

            Face it, Fundisi-Neimam, you just cannot handle people questioning your assumptions. When they do, you immediately begin to insult them personally. Here, with someone who showed affinity with your beliefs, you just turned right around and devoured your own.

          • pax2u

            wow, you calling some one else arrogant and prideful
            I love it when two anti Catholics fight it out over who is the really, really true “christian”
            I ran out of popcorn watching the fun

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            A = ANTAGONIST
            B = BIG MOUTH KNOW IT ALL WHO’S ALWAYS WRONG
            C = CONFUSED & CONTRADICTORY
            D = DELUSIONAL

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            C = THERE WOULDN’T BE A “NEW TESTAMENT” WITHOUT AN “OLD TESTAMENT”.

            Man, you are really irritating.

          • Fundisi

            We are done – you are unteachable, angry, uncharitable and a waste of my time.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Good…go back into your CAVE, and write another 144,000 lines of crap.

          • Lisa

            He is using scripture for his theory but It seems to me that he sees what he wants to see with the verses he uses. I can’t see how it all fits like he says, when I read them I don’t see what he says is true.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            He thinks “He’a A Prophet”……Jesus was the LAST PROPHET.

            That is clearly written in the “Parable Of The TENANTS”, when God said “LASTLY I WILL SEND THEM MY SON”.

          • Lisa

            I don’t know about his thinking he’s a prophet, maybe he thinks he’s just trying to share what he thinks is right and true?

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Not when he constantly tells EVERYONE ‘They Are Wrong’.

            Can everyone be wrong, and ONLY HE IS RIGHT??

            That makes HIM a “Messenger Of God”, and we are all poor UNBELIEVERS who don’t know the Scriptures…..only HE KNOWS THE TRUTH, which makes him “LIKE THE MOST HIGH”.

          • Lisa

            You may be right he pretty much dismissed what I said flat out for his theory that doesn’t make an ounce of sense like he thinks it does. He did write that 144,000 word dissertation and feels he knows and is right.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Exactly.
            He thinks he has to “Qualify Himself” to make us all look stupid, as if “We Can’t Read For Ourselves”.

          • Lisa

            Well I do agree with you there!

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Seriously…I can go to church for a “Sermon”.
            Here we are “Sharing Ideas”, and FAITH.
            We are not here to MAKE PEOPLE FEEL STUPID.

          • Lisa

            He doesn’t make me feel stupid, Im pretty confidant myself that we sleep when we die. He hasn’t proven to me that the scripture he uses says what he thinks it does.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            I’m glad.
            the moment someone “Insults You”, and then calls you a “Non-Christian”, is the moment you know you are speaking with a DEMON.

          • Lisa

            I see now how arrogant and prideful he is now! Wow!

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            I’ve battled with him before….so, I know exactly what buttons to push.
            His biggest thing is his own EGO.
            It’s the only thing he can’t defend against, because it’s so obvious.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            What difference does your “denomination” make?
            If you believe in Jesus, that’s ALL that matters.

            To even infer that being a “7th Day Adventist”, as though that makes you Satan is RIDICULOUS, and only proves that person is NOT GODLY THEMSELVES.

          • Lisa

            Your denomination could make a difference in what you are taught as truth. The only real way to go is to be a betray and make sure from the scriptures yourself. There is a lot of deception in the world and you have to be careful with what you believe.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            That’s the only way I know.
            With “man” all is questionable.
            With God all is “Certain”.

          • Lisa

            Yes exactly!

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            My initial battle today with him was with a “BIBLE QUOTE” from Isaiah……he said “I’M WRONG”.
            All I did was quote a simple VERSE.

          • Lisa

            Haha, ya I saw that. But you picked the wrong verse out of the Old Testament and that doesn’t count! But o ya I quoted out of the New Testament and that doesn’t count either.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            You can’t win with him…LOL

            But, it’s IN THE BIBLE……he says “YOU’RE WRONG”.
            That’s the point….how can you argue with “WHAT’S IN THE BIBLE”??
            The moment you do that you show your ignorance.
            That’s saying that IT ISN’T THERE.
            How can anyone make an “Argument” out of that??

            It doesn’t particularly matter if you think it “applies” or not, what matters that “It’s There”.

            That’s where I draw the line, especially when he says “I’M WRONG”.
            Then how can HIS VERSE BE RIGHT?? Or, anyone else’s verse be right, if MINE IS WRONG??

            It’s an absurdity to even attempt to argue about what the BIBLE ACTUALLY SAYS.

            Yet…that’s exactly what HE DOES.

          • Lisa

            All I know is he said my verses didn’t say what I said they did and then told me again how he wrote a 144,000 plus thesis and he knows. Haha! He thinks it’s him and his thesis against the world. He was telling me that I was on a side and I told him I’m not on any side I’m looking for the truth and then his next post to me was even more condescending. I suppose he thinks that way because there is a certain arrogance and pride in seminary. He went to school and learned so it’s his duty to teach us poor spiritual infants!

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            LOL….you are on a “Side”.
            The side of RIGHT.

            Stay the way you are, and let no one change you!!!

          • Lisa

            Never thought of it that way-thanks!

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            That’s because you’re not a deviant trying to “impose yourself” on others.
            Oh, the wicked webs we weave….

            Why can’t people just let others be HAPPY??

            If you ask an innocent question, that doesn’t give people permission to insult your Biblical Intelligence.

            All a person has to do in “response” to your question is give you the “Scriptures” to read for yourself……(sermons need not apply).

            You’re smart enough to figure it out from the Scriptures, you didn’t sign up for a “Course” on Theology…..especially “THEIR THEOLOGY”.

            If they are TRULY CHRISTIAN, they will give you the “Proper Response”…..if not, ….well, you know the rest.

          • Lisa

            I honestly had no idea that people would lie about you and try to discredit you all because you don’t agree with them. Or tell you your hateful because you say your opinion. I guess I shouldn’t be so naive but I really thought that instead of calling names people would be able to debate and possibly have a great comversation where maybe we learn from each other. Guess not. I am naive.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            No. You’re not naive.
            You’re not “cunning”.

            Ever since Jesus died on the cross there have been “perversity of The Word”. This is not necessarily “Known by the perpetrators”, in fact, they BELIEVE they are doing the “Work Of God”.

            You may recall “Simon The Sorcerer” in his attempts TO BUY THE “HOLY SPIRIT”.
            What that means is…Not everyone has the Holy Spirit, but THEY’D LIKE TO, and, they even convince themselves that they are “BLESSED”.
            This is to “Rid Themselves Of Guilt” without any “Repentance”.
            In this sense “They Honor Him with their LIPS, but, Their HEARTS are far from Him”.

            This is not YOUR FAULT. It is their own works TORTURING THEIR MINDS, and, they believe they are trying to escape that torture.

            One way of escaping is by believing that IF I SAVE SOULS FOR GOD, THEN GOD WILL FORGIVE ME.
            They are trying to “BARGAIN WITH GOD”….just like Simon the Sorcerer……sadly NOTHING THEY DO will save them.

            It is only with the PUREST OF HEARTS, as Jesus said in the Beatitudes; Those with PURE HEARTS will SEE GOD.

            You are one of these….”a Pure Heart”.

            Now that you are EXPOSED, and your LIGHT IS BLINDING TO THEM, they will ATTACK WITHOUT CEASING.
            And, that comes in MANY FORMS…..just as you see here, with the CALLOUSNESS OF SO-CALLED CHRISTIANS.

            You have already EXCEEDED them with your PURE HEART.

            In plain English…THEY ARE “JEALOUS OF YOU”.

            The closer you are to God, the Brighter your LIGHT shines.

            These people spend YEARS STUDYING, but, nothing can CHANGE THEIR HEARTS, regardless of how much they STUDY.

            Picture it like this….you may be able to READ MUSIC LIKE MOZART, but, you can NEVER PLAY LIKE MOZART.
            It’s something that’s IN YOUR HEART, not something you can be TAUGHT.

            People like FUNGUS think they can do it with WORDS.
            Either you have the HOLY SPIRIT, or, you don’t.

            There’s no such thing as BEING A “LITTLE PREGNANT”, and, there’s no such thing as SOME SPIRIT,
            Either you are ALL IN, or, you are ALL OUT.

            You, my Dear….are ALL IN, and your HEART is all the proof you need.

          • Lisa

            Thank you so much for your kind words!

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Thank you so much for your Great Faith.
            By your faith, I too am strengthened.

            Your faith shows me that there’s still HOPE for this cruel world, and that Honesty is still the rarest of virtues.

          • Lisa

            Isn’t that what we Christians are to do though-strengthen each other in faith? I am honored that my faith has strengthened yours!

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Yes, Lisa….whenever Two or More are “Gathered In His Name”, There HE will be also.
            Through the Spirit of Jesus, which we share, I have been able to feel your faith.
            Your battle against the evil around you gives me encouragement that there are many “More” of the FEW going down the narrow path than I had thought.
            It’s not everyday you meet someone with such great conviction of their beliefs in our Lord & Savoir above all other trivial babble that is being portrayed on these pages as between “So-Called” Christians fighting among themselves.

            That’s inspiring to me!!!

          • Lisa

            Thank you-you’ve inspired me too with your kind words! Have a wonderful evening!

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Thank you.
            Have a BLESSED evening as well, and, “Keep Up The Good Fight”, let no one take your “Crown” of Victory, which Jesus alone has provided for you with His Blood.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            He doesn’t “Share”.
            He ARROGANTLY ABUSES PEOPLE.

          • wandakate

            The scriptures LISA do not lie. Stick to them and not what any man tells you. People are well-meaning yes, but some are deceived. If it does not match the scriptures then it’s not a fact, it’s not the truth, It’s the truth that will set you free. YOU are the one who is correct.
            People can write anything from any perspective, but what do the scriptures say. The dead will rise, yes, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.
            When is He coming, it’s in Revelation 11:15-19. Right there (in case you didn’t discover this) is where JESUS comes and He takes the kingdoms of this world away from satan. Right then this world becomes the LORD’s and He will reign forever and ever and do what He and the FATHER GOD have to do. The ark of the covenant can even be seen then. That’s our key passage to the second coming of JESUS. You stick with the work, read, study and discover all the “truth” and not this hear say coming from people. Man will fail you, but GOD will never fail you. Blessings…

          • Lisa

            Thanks Wandakate! I have thought like this for awhile now. I thought maybe I was the only one who thought this since what fundisi thinks is the prevailing wisdom. To me it’s pretty clear, the dead rise, then I think it’s Paul who tells us that we are asleep and I know that people say that what he’s trying to say is we are dead, but with him saying we are asleep and the dead rise first…. I agree wholeheartedly that if it doesn’t match the scripture its not true-it can’t be. Well the Bible does say to not trust in man-trust God and so I do work at learning the truth and ask God to show me the truth so Im not deceived. Too much deception out in the world. I can see things shaping up to match up with scripture.

          • pax2u

            so fundisi says that wandakate’s views are those of a Seventh Day Adventist

            I did not realize that you were a Seventh Day Adventist, just ask Nieman/Fundisi

          • Lisa

            I’m surprised you believe him since you think he lies about the Bible and hates catholics

          • pax2u

            I guess since you felt insulted by him he MUST have a good side

          • Lisa

            So you don’t think funisi is all that bad anymore

          • pax2u

            we all have our good point, you may have a good point too, I have not seen it yet
            I will pray for you

          • Lisa

            Haha-I guess next time you tell someone he lies about the Bible and hates catholics you need to add but he has his good point too!

          • pax2u

            I will pray for you to my Christian God, Jesus Christ

          • pax2u

            you say that I am not a Christian because I am a Catholic
            and then you say that you are insulted because another anti Catholic disagrees with you on Christian theology
            I love the irony

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Isaiah 57:1-2

            1 The righteous perish,
            and no one takes it to heart;
            the devout are taken away,
            and no one understands
            that the righteous are taken away
            to be spared from evil.
            2 Those who walk uprightly
            enter into peace;
            they find rest as they lie in death.

          • wandakate

            The SPIRIT leaves the body at death and go to be with GOD. That same spirit rejoins the body at the resurrection and then according to GOD’s will it turns from mortal to immortal and from corrupt to incorrupt and that all happens in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet. It’s our spirit that will join the body. The body is in effect the soul. Read Genesis, what does it say? When GOD created Adam, Adam became a living “SOUL”. Adam was a soul, a being, a human, a person. They all mean the same thing. The soul and the spirit join each other at the resurrection.

          • wandakate

            That is correct, they are NOT in heaven as we have been told. Many people are deceived. Read your other comment/comments that I wrote you and it explains it.

          • mabil

            PRAISE THE LORD BRETHREN . I found it necessary to clarify some issues here
            1. when you die while in holiness and righteousness you. you remain in waiting until the day that The Glory of the LORD strikes the earth ,open. the tombs and you rise . then those who are still living in Christ will be converted into glorious bodies and they rise and catch up with them 1 Thessalonians 4 :16 . they then go to wedding banquet for 7 years and those who remain undergo 7years of tribulations and greater tribulations and end of they killed .then Christ comes and rule for 1000 years of peace . the day of judgement comes now to some judged to hell and other to heaven
            2. Catholic . as a body of Christ then you should propel what is required of to be like Christ . Mary was the mother of Christ . but this did not give her the standards to be worshipped. the bible talks much about how GOD detects drunkadness. yet I see it permitted there . unless you are worshipping a different god. what about this images on the wall . you bow to them the chains in your nake . you worship that . time for idolatry is over .we must now seek Christ in repentance and holiness .

          • pax2u

            Catholics do not Worship Mary, Catholics honor Mary as the mother of God
            as the Commandment of God says to honor your Morther and Father

            Catholics only worship the God of the Christian Trinity

          • mabil

            thats ok but I hate alcoholism there . how can you tell me it’s ok yet I know it is wrong to do so . drunkadness .drunkadness is wrong

          • pax2u

            I agree drinking to excess is wrong and harmful
            did I ever say that alcoholism is ok? no
            and Catholics do not worship Mary, but Honor Mary and to lie and say that the Catholic Church worships Mary is wrong
            is drunkadness a word in English?
            there is a word drunkenness

          • mabil

            thank you for correction. that is what I don’t like about catholic . you can’t tell me 97 % is good if it is sin let it be sin . there is this thing that you go repent your sin before father or someone who says your sins are forgiven . this is wrong and it’s wrong . LET US BE WATCHFUL remember deception from the enemy . you may think you are going to heaven yet you are in the wrong path

          • pax2u

            I am a sinner and belong to a Church filled with sinners
            are you 100% with out sin?
            we confess our sins to another as the Bible says

            James 5:16

            16Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

            only God forgives

          • mabil

            unsubscibe

          • pax2u

            postage paid

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Isaiah 57:1-2

            1 The righteous perish,
            and no one takes it to heart;
            the devout are taken away,
            and no one understands
            that the righteous are taken away
            to be spared from evil.
            2 Those who walk uprightly
            enter into peace;
            they find rest as they lie in death…….

          • pax2u

            Matt 16

            18″I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Isaiah 17:10
            You have forgotten God your Savior; you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.

            (God/Jesus is the ROCK – not Peter)

          • pax2u

            I have not forgotten my personal Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
            you should not judge others on things that you know not

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            I never said you did.

            I showed you that GOD/JESUS is the “Rock”.

          • pax2u

            first you post this

            “You have forgotten God your Savior”

            I respond

            “I have not forgotten my personal Lord and Savior Jesus Christ”

            and then you posted this
            “I never said you did”

            I do not want to judge your faith but I am a Christian and I believe that Jesus Christ is God and Jesus Christ is my Savior

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Does PAX stand for PAXIL??

            Because it sounds like you need your XANAX.

            I suggest you RE-READ THE ENTIRE VERSE, which, I responded to YOUR RESPONSE of saying “18”I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock”

            What is wrong with you???

            WHERE DID I ACCUSE YOU OF ANYTHING??

            I quoted ISAIAH in response to WHAT HAPPENS WHEN “YOU DIE”, AND YOU CAME BACK WITH “MATTHEW 16”, WHICH DOESN’T EVEN “APPLY”.

            Go back to sleep.

          • pax2u

            Pax is latin for peace
            I forgive you and wish you peace

            I will pray for you

          • pax2u

            WHERE DID I ACCUSE YOU OF ANYTHING??

            right here

            “You have forgotten God your Savior”

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            READ IT AGAIN DUFUSS….

            Revelation55 pax2u • 2 hours ago

            Isaiah 17:10
            You have forgotten God your Savior; you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.

            (God/Jesus is the ROCK – not Peter)

          • pax2u

            you anger is consuming your soul,

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Your IGNORANCE is making you stupid.

          • pax2u

            I have no idea why you posted the Verse from Isaiah, I made no common on what happens to us when we die
            do you just post random Bible verses, and then become irrational when no one knows why you are doing this?
            I will pray for you

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Yes…I RANDOMLY post Bible verse…JUST LIKE YOU DID IN “REPLY”.

            Does the Word Of God OFFEND YOU??

          • pax2u

            because I had no idea why you posted a verse from Isaiah to me, I was not apart of the discussion of what happens to a person when they die, you just sent me a post that as far as I was concerned it was totally random, that is why I responded with a verse that had no relation to you post,

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            WOW….you had “no idea”.
            Why doesn’t that surprise me?

            Go back to Praying for those “You Think” are accusing you of something.

            I hear they call that PARANOIA.

            You were MAKING YOUR [email protected] comments all day to LISA, about what she was SAYING ABOUT “DEATH”.
            You were HARASSING HER WITHOUT END……and, SUDDENLY, you have “No Idea” why I posted ISAIAH in a THREAD that you’ve BEEN COMMENTING ON.

            You’re a freekin GENIUS!!!

          • pax2u

            so you go around posting Bible verses for no know reasaon and become Crazed and Angry when no one knows your secret reason,
            you are not mentally well
            go back and read, Lisa was posting to Neiman/Fundisi on what happens after death, I was just amused when two anti Catholics fight it out
            is this how you try to spread your seventh day adventist message?

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            I see you just “Woke Up”, and it’s taken you this long to come back with this “3 Year Old” response.

            Suggest you take some more PAXIL’S, and get some more rest.

            “Me thinks thou doesth protest too much”.

            Is that how you spread your church of SCIENTOLOGY messages??

            You were an MORON when you first responded, and, nothing has changed since then.
            You’re still as CLUELESS as you were when you went to SLEEP.

            Stay asleep, and leave the rest of us NORMAL’S to figure things out for you.

            As far as your CRYSTAL BALL goes…..you have, AGAIN, “No Idea” what I am, let alone, what I’m talking about.

            So….let me get this straight….YOURS IS THE “BEST CHRISTIANITY GROUP”, and, anyone that is NOT LIKE YOU is SCREWED?……is that how you see things, O wise one??

            You sound MORE LIKE “ISIS” by making such ASININE remarks.
            But, I wouldn’t expect anything more MATURE from you.

            You’re a RELIGIOUS “BIGOT”. Not that I am a “7th Day Adventist”, but, if I were…WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT “YOU’RE CHRISTIAN ATTITUDE”??

            You need to PRAY FOR YOURSELF @SSWIPE.

          • pax2u

            not sure what your odd issues are,
            you post to me a random Bible Verse with no explanation, and then go manic
            Crystal Ball, what is that about?
            I will pray to the Christian God Jesus Christ for your eternal soul

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            P.S….you’re the ONE that is “Crazed & Angry”.

            Just look at your STUPID REPLIES, like a CRY BABY, asking me “WHAT ARE YOU ACCUSING ME OF”??

            You’re INSANE, and then you ask “WHY” people do things?

            You should ASK YOURSELF WHY YOU ACT LIKE AN @SSHOLE…..and WHY you ENJOY tormenting a girl asking a SIMPLE QUESTION.

            I suppose you like taking wings off of FLIES too, to AMUSE YOU, right??

          • pax2u

            I wish you well, and hope that you find peace
            I will pray to my Christian God Jesus Christ for you
            I am happy to see two anti Catholics, or should I add you and make it three, attacking each other keep it up

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            You see what I’m talking about?

            “I am happy to see two anti Catholics, or should I add you and make it three, attacking each other keep it up”.

            That’s EXACTLY WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT.

            You BLASPHEME “GOD’S HOLY NAME”, as you are “HAPPY” to see “Your Fellow Christians Attacking Each Other”.

            Need I say more?

            I know who MY “Christian God” is…..and, the ONE you worship WOULDN’T BE “HAPPY”, as YOU are, about any STRIFE AMONG THE “CHRISTIAN FAMILY”……yet, YOU revel in it.
            You’re a PHUCKING HYPOCRITE!!!

          • pax2u

            I commented on Neiman/Fundisi’s and Lisa’s anti Catholic bigotry
            they both have said that Catholics are not Christians. do you agree?
            I am a Catholic, suprise me tell me your denomination?

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            You are a “NOTHING”.

            Telling you ANYTHING about myself would be like “LAYING MY PEARLS BEFORE A PIG”.

            YOU HAVEN’T EARNED THAT FROM ME.

            You need to check your BIGOTRY at the door when you enter here, you SAD thing pretending to be a “Christian”.

          • pax2u

            so you have no denomination, I understand why you are alone
            I will pray for you

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Psalm 82:6
            “I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all Sons of the Most High.’

            That’s my DENOMINATION, and, unlike YOU, I will NEVER BE ALONE.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            P.S….your CRYSTAL BALL told you “I’m Anti-Catholic”, did it?

            You’re a JOKE, and not even worthy to walk the earth, let alone enter the gates of paradise.

            You know NOTHING ABOUT ME…..but, you are coming through LOUD & CLEAR, you freekin BIGOT!!

          • pax2u

            do you agree with Lisa and Nieman/Fundisi are not Catholics?

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Whether I agree, or not, I don’t PRESUME TO KNOW WHAT DENOMINATION THEY ARE, like you do.

            So, in other words…EVERYONE HAS TO “AGREE WITH YOU” TO BE “ACCEPTED”, right?
            And, they MUST BE CATHOLICS too.

            You’re a sad excuse for a human being.

          • pax2u

            so you can not answer if Catholics are Christians
            then what is your denomination, can you answer that?

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Here’s what I am….

            Psalm 82:6

            “I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all Sons of the Most High.’.

            Can you DEFINE my denomination now???

          • pax2u

            It is best that you are alone with out a Church
            I will pray for you

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            You keep your BUILDINGS which will FALL.

            I will keep my God which causes YOUR BUILDINGS TO FALL.

          • pax2u

            I am not surprised that you have no Christian fellowship
            I will continue to pray for you

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            How can you pray when you have NO GOD??

            Is your god in your MIRROR??

            Pray for yourself, you blasphemous @ss.

          • pax2u

            I am a Christian and I pray to my personal Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
            you defend Lisa who has said that Catholics are not Christians
            do you believe in the Christian Trinity of God the Heavenly Father, God the Son Jesus Christ, and God the Holy Spirit.
            My Church teaches that if you believe in the Christian Trinity then you are a Christian Brother or Sister, even if you are a separated Brethren,
            do you believe in the Christian Trinity?

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            What you do, and who you pray to is YOUR PERSONAL BUSINESS – not mine.
            Your relationship with God can only be a “personal relationship”. It is God’s Holy Spirit INTERMINGLING with Your Spirit, and no one else’s……it couldn’t get more PERSONAL than that.
            Each person is JUDGED “INDIVIDUALLY”…..not “Collectively”, as God reads the Hearts & Minds of “Individuals”.

            If you believe that “Jesus Is the Son Of God, who Died For Your Sins”….THAT MAKES YOU A “CHRISTIAN”.
            If you don’t “believe that”, then you are NOT a Christian.

            Seems simple enough for me.

            As for a “Trinity”….I know there is the FATHER, and I know there is the SON, and, I know there is the HOLY SPIRIT.

            If you want to call it a “Threesome”…it makes no difference to me, nor, does it make any difference to GOD.

            These are “WORDS” you are squabbling about, which YOU BELIEVE “Defines” a person’s FAITH.
            That’s simply SHALLOW….especially since a “Person’s Faith With God Is PERSONAL”, and certainly “Unknown” to YOU, or anyone else EXCEPT GOD.

            So…..why must they “ANSWER TO YOU”??
            Is it YOUR BUSINESS how much, or how little faith I have?
            Isn’t that GOD’S BUSINESS???

            When you ask STUPID QUESTIONS like that, you will always get a STUPID ANSWER like “this”.

            That’s like asking me how I make “Love”, and, WHO IS MY PARTNER.

            Is any of that YOUR BUSINESS?

            Shouldn’t it BE ENOUGH to “know” I believe in JESUS??

            You call me “SEPARATED”….then you call me “BRETHREN”.
            That, my friend, is an OXYMORON.
            “Brethren” means to be OF ONE……SEPARATED MEANS TO BE “ALONE”.
            So how can YOU use those words in the SAME SENTENCE?

            The saddest part about all this is that you need to “QUALIFY” everyone into a CERTAIN CLASS.
            If we are “BRETHREN”, and, if you are a “Christian”, then YOU SHOULD ALREADY KNOW “WE ARE ALREADY BRETHREN”…..yet, you call me SEPARATE.

            Therefore IT IS YOU WHO HAVE “JUDGED ME”.

            Brother, and I use that word loosely, …I HAVE ONLY “ONE JUDGE”, and that is the One who READS MY HEART & MIND…..and, guess what?…YOU AIN’T HIM.

            If you are a Christian, then WHAT I AM SHOULD NOT MATTER TO YOU.

            All you need to know is “LOVE THY NEIGHBOR”.

            As far as LISA goes….she can “DEFEND HERSELF”, and needs no help from me.
            I was just POINTING OUT “WHAT YOU WERE DOING TO HER”…..which is the same as what YOU’RE DOING RIGHT NOW.

            Maybe, just maybe….one day you’ll understand this.
            But, if you continue to put people into certain “CLASSES”, then remember that YOU WILL BE JUDGED AS YOU HAVE JUDGED OTHERS.

            I suppose the simplest answer to your “query’ is…
            …..”YES, I’M A CHRISTIAN”.

            If that’s NOT ENOUGH for you….then take a walk, and find OTHERS who “Think Like You Think”.

          • pax2u

            what I was doing to Lisa was addressing her view that Catholics were not Christians,
            as many others addressed to Lisa, I found it interesting that another anti Catholic insulted her for her religious views
            I agree that those who believe Jesus Christ is God and is our Lord and Savior are called Christians
            I said that if you believed in the Christian Trinity you were a my Christian brother or sister, Separated Brethren is that even though you are a Christian we do not agree on all theology, is that correct?

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Like I said….you’re “Hung Up” on the WORDS.
            My faith is in the RESURRECTION.

            Personally speaking….I DESPISE THEOLOGY.
            Theology is a “Person’s Concept”.
            Some “agree”, some have “separate theologies”.

            Quite frankly…THAT’S WHAT THE “FIGHTING IS ALL ABOUT”!!!

            If you put YOURSELF in that “Class”, then expect those who are NOT in “Your Class” to DISAGREE WITH YOU.
            The only time YOU will have “HARMONY” is when EVERYONE AGREES WITH YOUR THEOLOGY.
            Then….those are the people you should be SPEAKING TO, instead of AGITATING OTHERS for “Not being part of your group”.

            Is this too hard of a concept to grasp???

          • pax2u

            sorry but words do have meaning
            I really do not care about another’s religious beliefs,
            If they say that they believe in Christ and say that they are a Christian, then that is fine they
            are a Christian,
            just do not attack mine or lie about my faith, when that is how someone bases their religious faith, I do care
            that is all I ask

            I hope that you can grasp that

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            When did I ATTACK your Faith???????????????

            It’s been YOU this entire time LABELING ME AS ” 7th DAY ADVENTIST”, AN “ANTI-CATHOLIC”, AND “ALONE”.

            You know NOTHING about me….and, HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU ASK “What is your denomination”????

            Please…cut the BS.

            When did I “Lie About Your Religion”???

            The point you’re missing is…I DON’T CARE WHAT YOUR RELIGION IS.

            Obviously, YOU CAN’T GRASP THIS.

          • pax2u

            I am sorry if that was not clear, I did not refer to you
            My message is to anyone who attacks my faith and lies about my faith
            If you are a Seventh Day Adventist or have no denomination it is not my concern, all I ASK, is do not attack my faith or lie about my faith again I did not say that you have attacked or lied about my faith , and I would appreciate it if that fact remains true

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            That’s cool.
            I will admit that the only thing I was “attacking” was your intelligence…., but, never your faith.

            You made a BIG DEAL out of my “Isaiah” post which was totally unnecessary, and, you. in your own admission came back with a totally “UNRELATED VERSE”.

            After I “explained” what it was about, then you went off.

            I don’t mean to sound cruel…but, I also don’t like it when someone else is “playing games”.

            My intent was completely “Innocent”, and, look how far this has gone…..all because you “misconstrued my intentions”.

            So, we are even now….because I just misconstrued what you wrote before this…..or, at least I thought what you wrote was meant for me.

            Peace.

          • pax2u

            I will not respond to your insults.
            I was not akin to the conversation between Neiman/Fundisi and Lisa regarding what happens to someone when they die, I just expressed my fascination of two anti Catholics fighting over Christian theology
            you sent me an unsolicitated Bible verse with out any explaination, it was my error in responding
            I wish you well
            I ask you to pray for me as I will pray for you

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            I prayed for you before I responded to your first reply.

            I have no desire that strife should exist between anyone be it atheists, polytheists, monotheists, or agnostics.

            I’m just ticking away the moments until this is all over, and we can all have peace.

          • pax2u

            I wish you well

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Same to you.

          • pax2u

            why did you post a verse to me from Isaiah in the first place, I made no mention to what happens when you die,
            you just posted to me a Bible verse with out any explaination, so I just posted to you a Bible verse with out any explaination

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Isaiah 57:1-2

            1 The righteous perish,
            and no one takes it to heart;
            the devout are taken away,
            and no one understands
            that the righteous are taken away
            to be spared from evil.
            2 Those who walk uprightly
            enter into peace;
            they find rest as they lie in death…..

          • wandakate

            I DO NOT find this biblical at all. I find many places that tell us that the dead know nothing, they are asleep in their graves. The 12 yr. old was only “sleeping”. Lazarus was “asleep” and JESUS went to wake him up from that sleep. Lazarus knew nothing. He didn’t mention anything, no heaven and no hell. It’s only the Spirit that leaves the body at death, but we (flesh, body, soul etc.) to in the grave until the resurrection of the dead, and THEN we go to be with the LORD in our new glorified bodies that are fit for the Kingdom of GOD.

          • Fundisi

            I am not going to debate you or respond to your several comments to me today. I believe you do not understand God’s Word at all, that you are at heart a 7th Day Adventist and while I could counter your every statement with God’s Word, after having tried sincerely to debate 7th Day Adventists and their many heterodox beliefs and misuse of Scripture, they only end up in vain disputations. My only fear is that you will defile others with your false doctrines, but I have to trust the Lord to protect them, I know you 7th Day Adventists are relentless and often mean spirited in debates.

            Let me make it clear, virtually everything you have said is unscriptural and false and while I resist any further discussions, it does not mean I give an inch of ground to you, I am just tired of the time and energy it takes to show you the errors of your ways and with virtually no hope you will be open to God’s Word or His Spirit.

          • wandakate

            Thank you for the comment. I am not “mean spirited” at all and also I do not attend the Adventist Church. What I quoted was strictly from scripture, no more and no less. Usually people who are mistaken won’t debate but that is what the forum is about in the first place is a good healthy debate. If we can go to heaven at our death where did JESUS and not Paul or somebody else tell us that? You can’t find it, as I searched and it’s not there. You won’t fine any of the worldly holidays there either. You won’t find where He changed any of His commandments or deleted any of them. There is a lot that is preached that is not in the Bible. I am open for debate with whomever b/c I can give them the exact scriptures out of the Bible to read for themselves. That other woman also disagreed with you (she must have been one of those Adventist huh)? She knew what she was reading and she knew that what you said didn’t match what she was reading and she told you that you were mistaken. So, I am in agreement with her.
            There is no more discussion needed here b/c you are believing what you have been taught (by man) and not by GOD. Man is deceived, GOD is not deceived, he knew the truth and it’s the truth that will set you free.

          • Fundisi

            A. You deny attending it, but your every belief is straight from the 7th Day Adventist Church and from man.
            B. I told you that I have studied it in-depth and that by reliance on the Holy Spirit and everything I believe is directly from God’s Word. Not like your statement about what Paul actually meant, absent any scriptural proof. It is insulting and condescending for you to suggest otherwise regarding my discernment of Divine Truth.
            C. Sad you do not, as did Peter, see Paul’s writings as Scripture, meaning Holy Spirit inspired. But, no 7th Day Adventist dares admit any error or his whole false house comes crumbling down.

          • wandakate

            Very perceptive. You are correct. They had not gone to heaven yet to be with the LORD. It does say that they will RISE up. They will not be COMING DOWN. They were in their graves (sleeping) until JESUS came for them. I wish others could get that like you did.

          • wandakate

            Paul said that he would rather be absent from the body and be present with the LORD. He did not mean at his death, he meant when his time came at the resurrection of the dead, then he would be out of his earthly tent (body) and with the LORD in heaven. We DO NOT go to heaven at death. Don’t the scriptures tell us that we sleep in the grave until JESUS appears in the clouds to open up the graves?

          • wandakate

            No, people are not in Heaven at death. The scriptures tell us that they die (their spirits leave their bodies) and they are in a sleep like state (in other words they know nothing). They also don’t go to hell when they die. This is a false teaching and is not biblical. I can’t find where it tells us they are in heaven. We don’t go to heaven until the resurrection when the graves are opened by JESUS and we rise up. Some to everlasting life and some to shame and punishment. In the meantime we don’t know anything, we are not aware of what’s going on, we are simply dead.

          • wandakate

            DEATH is a sleep. Scripture tells us that the dead know nothing, they are not aware of anything. The “SPIRIT” leaves the body at death and returns to GOD that gave it. He gave the breath of life when we were born and He takes it when we die. We are not conscious in death until the resurrection of the dead. Then we will rise and put on our immortal body, our incorrupt body and go to be with the LORD forever. In the mean time we sleep in the grave unaware of anything.
            I think the parables are just that…they are stories and allegories, but they were not real.
            For instance, Lazarus was in the grave for 4 days and He wasn’t aware of anything, he didn’t mention heaven or hell at all. I died in 2001 and I didn’t see heaven or hell, no memory of anything while I was dead. It’s the spirit in man that separates from the flesh at death.
            I believe the ones in hell know they are there and are totally separated from GOD and all that is good. The righteous were as you said only separated from their fleshly lives in this world, but did not ever separate form GOD, they lived and reigned with Him for a thousand years.

      • pax2u

        so Neiman, Roman Catholics and some of other false faiths?
        what is the denomination of your faith, does it lie about the Bible?

      • Rosavera

        speak for yourself Fundisi, as a Catholic i know that the Lord Jesus loves me and like He said : : “Truly, I say to you, even the publicans and prostitutes will enter the Kingdom of God before you.” Be careful Fundisi when you condemn another Christian…

        • Fundisi

          A) Yes Jesus loves you and everyone in the world, He died for all.
          B) Just because he loves you/them does not mean you/they are saved and Christian.
          C) My problem with the Roman Catholic Church is that, IMO, it teaches another Gospel but that of salvation by Grace alone and the Holy Spirit says anyone teaching another Gospel are accursed.

          I understand and sincerely appreciate your defense of your Roman Catholic Church and the many people having been willing to die for that faith over nearly two thousand years, I do not condemn them, I leave them to God. I do condemn the false Gospel of the Roman Catholic Church for deceiving so many precious souls. Are any Catholics saved? I cannot know, I leave that to God, but I cannot see how rejecting the Gospel of Grace alone can save anyone.

          • wandakate

            Just 2 cents here…We are saved by grace yes, BUT, we are judged by our works. Our works and deeds matter, it’s not just grace. It’s a combination of GOD’s grace and mercy along with our works and deeds. We are saved and then we will naturally work. Not in order to be saved, but b/c we already are saved.

    • pax2u

      lisa what is your true denomination?

      • Lisa

        Well pax I’m not a catholic. I don’t believe catholics are Christians though, not said to be mean or anything but I do believe that’s the truth. Though I am pretty sure you will be offended. I have read many comments you have made to others on different posts and I think that’s as far as I will answer you. Have a good evening.

        • pax2u

          are you a Christian?

          • Lisa

            Of course, why else would I be at a Christian site?

          • pax2u

            many are on this site you lie about the Bible, such as Neiman/Fundisi
            and
            hate and lie about Christians
            I understand why you would not have a denomination, I will pray for you
            have a blessed day

          • Lisa

            Poor pax you are easily offended and then you lash out and say foolish things. I have read this over and over from you in many different posts. But it is no wonder-the light shines in the darkness and the darkness did not comprehend it. Have a good evening.

          • pax2u

            yes I am offended by those you hate Christians
            I am offended by those who lie about the Christian Bible
            I am offended by those filled with hatred and bigotry
            but I am thankful that these are the lunatic fringe and that they are alone with out a church, with out a denomination
            .have a blessed day
            and I will pray for your eternal soul

          • Lisa

            I’m sorry, are you saying that I hate Christians, lie about the Bible, am filled with hatred and bigotry and I’m the lunatic fringe?

          • pax2u

            I did not say that You hate Christians,
            I said that
            I am offended by those who hate Christians, if you believe that, that applies to you, that is your concern and not mine
            do you support those who lie about the Bible?
            I do pray for those who are filled with hate and bigotry and they are the Lunatic Fringe,
            either way as a Christian I ask you to pray for me as I will pray for you
            have a blessed night

          • Lisa

            I was unsure what you were trying to say in your post is all. What Bible lies are you talking about?

          • pax2u

            Neiman Nick_from_Detroit•17 hours ago

            “WRONG! Jesus prophesied that Peter would be hung upside down, not that Peter would request it.”
            Lisa answer me this

            where in the Bible is the Book, Chapter and Verse that Jesus Christ prophesied that Peter would be hung upside down?

          • Lisa

            I didn’t say it and I surely don’t have to answer to you for something someone else says.

          • pax2u

            I understand and appreciate your support
            those who lie about the Bible and hate Christians are hypocrites
            thanks you and have a blessed night

          • Lisa

            I’m not supporting you, I said I don’t have to answer to you what someone else said. Go talk to Neiman.

          • pax2u

            I am sorry I thought you supported those who believe in the truth of the Bible
            I apologize
            have a blessed night

          • Douglas

            I’m sorry that I have to be the one to say this but you are continually violating the comment guidelines for this site. You are not being productive and you come across as rude and disruptive. I can only imagine that you are trying to stir up trouble rather than discuss a point. Please consider your actions and try to be respectful or consider trolling elsewhere. I will include a link below to the Comment Guidelines page, please take special consideration on items 4 and 5.

            http://christiannews.net/contact-us/comment-guidelines/

          • pax2u

            I am sorry that realize that as a Catholic I am a second class citizen and not a Christian in the viewpoint of many of the true “christians” here
            I will shuffle to the back of the website bus, and know my place

          • pax2u

            Neiman/Fundisi is listening to what I am saying
            she is willing to lie about the Bible, the word of God
            she hates Catholics more than she loves Jesus Christ

          • Lisa

            Who are you talking about?

          • pax2u

            Neiman is now posting as Fundisi because he could not defend his false statement about the Bible

          • Fundisi

            Lisa, I am sorry you are caught up in pax2u’s anger and hate, directed at me. He is very, very angry because based solely on Scripture, I have been put into the unpleasant position of challenging many of the false teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, especially as regards salvation. His faith is so weak, all he has is anger and hate as a reply.

            As to the passage he keeps alluding to, I did offer the exact passage, even in charity agreeing that others had different interpretations thereof. In his anger he did not see it, because I refused to submit it to him and answer him directly, rather I replied to my own post on the issue.

          • pax2u

            you should not lie about the word of God, just because you hate Christians,
            what was the exact passage, Bible Book Chapter and Verse
            you did not offer it, do not lie
            I am sorry that your anger consumes your eternal soul
            you refuse to submit? but you have offered it? which is it, your should stop lying

          • pax2u

            FundisiNick_from_Detroit5 days ago
            “WRONG! Jesus prophesied that Peter would be hung upside down, not that Peter would request it.”

            “As to the passage he keeps alluding to, I did offer the exact passage”

            “I refused to submit it to him”

            who did you offer the exact passage to?

            do not lie about the Bible

          • pax2u

            do not be angry and hate the Christian Bible

          • Lisa

            I have read many of pax’s reply’s in other posts and I know that he is unreasonable and prone to attack with lies when not agreed with. If you are nieman I have no doubt that you offered scripture. The problem is that the darkness cannot perceive the light. Its not your fault that pax is acting the way pax acts-he is responsible for himself.

          • Fundisi

            Thanks for being understanding Lisa.

          • Lisa

            No problem, enjoy your evening.

          • pax2u

            FundisiNick_from_Detroit5 days ago
            WRONG! Jesus prophesied that Peter would be hung upside down, not that Peter would request it.

        • Magister_militum_praesentalis

          Can you explain why it is you think this? If one was to go by your comments so far, it seems to be because you have some kind of irrational prejudice against Catholics.

          • Lisa

            It’s not irrational and I’m not prejudiced. It’s a false religion. I could explain why but you wouldn’t be able to understand what I am saying. I have read your replys to other people on other posts and so I feel that it would be a dead end road-sorry. Have a good evening.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            That’s a copout. The “you don’t have eyes to see/ears to hear” rhetorical tactic does not work on me.

          • Lisa

            Haha! I believe you!

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Well, I am glad that you admit that you try to co-opt biblical language to denigrate people whose ideas you disagree with. That is one step closer to stepping out of one’s own solipsist universe.

          • Lisa

            You have just proven you are unable to understand. I don’t disagree with catholic ideas they aren’t Biblical so since they aren’t Biblical then the only conclusion is that it’s a false religion. If it’s not in the Bible it can’t be true. That’s what I go by. You don’t have to be offended that I don’t agree with you. You can still believe in the lies of catholicism, thats your choice. Some people I know have tried to show you the truth and you just get more defensive. Again your choice. Enjoy your evening.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Now you are projecting Neiman’s and others’ frustrations at having their assumptions questioned back onto me. I am not defensive. What do you mean “people I know?”

            You still have not demonstrated in any fashion that you know what “Catholic ideas” are and that they are unbiblical or evidence of “false religion.”

          • Lisa

            What I meant by people I know is that I’ve read different reply to you in different posts and I know that people have tried to tell you the truth but you wouldn’t or couldn’t hear it. Mary-the veneration and worship of Mary is wrong though catholics I have talked to say o no your wrong we don’t worship Mary. The pope recently said Christ and his mother are inseparable just like Christ and the church. That’s wrong and a lie. Jesus says He and the Father are one. He doesn’t talk about his mom like that but thays because she’s human and not God. He called her women at the marriage and when someone told him that his mother and brothers were waiting for Him, He says who is My mother? Who are My brothers? Yet He talks a lot about His Father. The Father is the one that counts here not the mom. The Father is God, He is the great I Am! When Jesus and his mom and dad were come back from Jerusalem Mary and Joseph found that Jesus was missing and walked back to Jerusalem. They found Jesus in the temple teaching and asked Him why He didn’t say where He was going, they were worried. His reply is that He would be in His Father’s house. You only think it’s Jesus and His mom because thatsbwhatbthe church tells you but when you actually read God’s word its Jesus and His Father. You have John 3:16 For God so loved the world that she gave His only begotten Son that He who believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Mart is not anywhere in that statement. She isn’t in any statement saying she is anything but blessed by God to be the mother of Jesus. But catholics take that to mean that you worship her as co redemptrix. The church lies to you and pulls you away from the truth because satan would like company in that lake of fire and he’ll be more than glad to have you and all the 1 billion catholics, however many muslims…..etc. I understand some of why catholics are so defensive, all their lives they have been taught that salvation is in the church and no one else, and it probably scares you to think otherwise. But salvation can be found in no one else but Jesus and Jesus alone saves sinners. Not Mary and not the church and not the pope and not mass. In the church Jesusnis either a little baby or dying on a cross-he needs his mommy and the pope and the priest to conjure Him at mass to make another sacrifice. When Jesus one time on a cross was the sacrifice and believing He died for your sins, took your place, that is all you need. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved- salvation can be found in no one else. But you won’t hear this, you will stick to the church’s lies. But again your choice. I don’t know book, chapter and verse-explore your Bible and find the passages. Goodnight.

          • pax2u

            Catholics honor Mary Catholics do not worship Mary
            Catholics only worship the God of the Christian Trinity
            do you reject the Christian Trinity

            Mary was with Jesus from his birth until his death or do you reject that part of the Bible

    • jmichael39

      Spare us your Pharisaic self-righteousness, Lisa. You wanna tell Jesus that someone who was willing to be beheaded for His Name’s sake shouldn’t get to heaven because they fellowship in a Catholic church or didn’t agree with your theology on the triune God? Or maybe they spoke in tongues and you think that’s not a gift for today? Or maybe they don’t get to go to heaven because they didn’t go to women’s bible studies led by you. If you honestly think that’s how you’re getting to heaven, then YOU are the one who needs to read Matt. 7:21 and the context of that verse.

      • Lisa

        Sorry how am I being self righteous? I’m not telling Jesus anything of the sort. And it seems you are reading way more into what I said, but it seems easily offended people do that.

        • pax2u

          maybe by deciding that Catholics are not Christians
          and having no denomination or church

          • Lisa

            Catholics are not Christians-sorry you may not like it but it’s the truth and it’s not the truth because I say it is, it’s the truth because catholics do and say many things that are not found in the Bible. But I’m not gonna argue with you tonight about it. Unfortunately for you I didn’t give you much ammunition to attack me with. You can only make up stuff to hurl at me and hope it sticks! However I’m not as easily offended as you are. So sad you live like that but your choice. Have a good evening.

          • Kimberly

            As a former catholic I must say I do not agree with the church’s teachings. However, it’s my understanding that the term “Christian” means believer in Christ. By definition Catholics are Christians and to say they are not is incorrect. Because they do believe in the fact that Jesus was crucified for our sins, died, was buried and 3 days later rose from the dead in fulfillment of scriptures. And from studies that I have done Jesus taught of relationships with Him and His father, not religion. So really the only “true religion” is a relationship with Jesus Christ, and following His word. I also believe that the most important thing that God taught us was to love, and unfortunately I am not understanding how Lisa’s comments can come from love. I know that as Christians we will say things and believe things that are not commonly popular and aren’t liked by anyone, but they should always be said from a place of love and respect for every human, regardless of their “religion” because that was the example Jesus gave us from his life’s teachings. He did have righteous anger when necessary, but never to belittle others. And I have to ask if you feel this combative stance is the best way to bring God’s truth, peace, light and love to Catholics? God bless!

          • Lisa

            Sometimes Kimberly there is no touchy, feely, feel good, pc way to tell the truth. I don’t believe that catholics are Christians. If they are they would leave that church because it teaches lies that go against the truth of scripture and lead people away from truly knowing God. I don’t think love means what you think it means. God loves us and tells us the truth that we are sinners. We worship God in spirit and in truth. Truth is pretty important to God, without it you can’t have a relationship with Him. The truth is offensive to people who are in darkness and no matter how kind, good and nice you are they may not hear it as nice, good or kind. I’m not trying to convert anyone. I don’t believe that anyone will be changed by my giving my opinion and that’s not the reason I gave it. It bothers me that the story talks about Christians dying but it lumps everyone together as Christian when not everyone who is dying is an actual Christian. Maybe that is called mean to come out and say it like that but I think it’s the truth and I am not gonna search around for a nicer way to say it so no one is offended, cause someone will always be offended.

          • Kimberly

            I completely agree that there will always be people who are offended, we can’t appease everyone, we should only aim to please God. But speaking hate and judgment will never please God. And I believe as Christians it is our calling to bring people to Christ and by living rightly and loving EVERYONE- Catholics, Jehovah’s witness, homosexuals, Mormons, Christians (all sinners)- we will be able to bring more people to the biblical truth that God is the only way to heaven. And you are also right, sometimes the “touchy, feely, feel good, pc way” isn’t the route to take, but I feel that’s ONLY after a solid friendship is created. We can’t go yelling at people in the streets that they will never be loved and will never know the Lord. Because last time I checked I haven’t ever seen the book of lambs so I don’t know who’s name is written there and whose isn’t. But by living in love with the fruits of the Holy Spirit ( love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control) I can show people what it truly means to be Christian and in a relationship with the one true living God. And then THAT will change the hearts of so many!! Think of all the good we could do as Christians if we humbled ourselves, admit we don’t know it all, ask God for his strength and eyes to see the truth and then just loved everyone!!

          • Lisa

            I’m not hating catholics. I’m stating what I genuinely believe to be true and it’s not out of hate. The pope recently said that Jesus and Mary are inseparable just as the church and Jesus are. Because the church and Mary always go together and one cannot understand salvation brought by Jesus without considering the churches motherhood. That is a bunch of crap! There are so many things wrong with what he said just in that statement, how about all the other statements or the other things that just aren’t Biblical that they do. It’s not hate its a statement of fact. Church tradition (the traditions of men) are regarded by catholics as equal as God’s word-wow! I saw pictures of the pope kissing the knee of a baby Jesus statue, carrying him around and gazing lovingly at the statue of baby Jesus. Maybe you won’t say it and other people won’t say it but that’s just wrong and not biblical. Worshipping Mary and saying human Mary is equal to God? Praying to Mary and other dead ‘saints’, seriously can’t you see how it’s false? It’s wrong to say that they are Christians and the pope saying we are brothers and sisters in Christ. Christ isn’t Christ in the catholic church. Jesus says He and His Father are one yet the pope said Jesus and Mary are inseparable. They are deceiving people and taking people farther and farther away from God by the things they do and say and as a Christian I think it’s horrible that they are giving a pass for distorting the gospel and deceiving people. Where is your compassion for people being led to hell? You think I’m hateful but how nice is it that the church is being touted as Christian and those 1 billion catholics are destined for the lake of fire unless they understand that what they believe is wrong? Should I instead say-o that’s ok the things you believe-we are all brothers and sisters in Christ and though I have some problems with what your church teaches hey all that matters is that you do those things in the name of Jesus. That made me ill just to write that last sentence. It is wrong and it does matter!! And we are supposed to contend for the faith and not let lies become truth because we are so scared of being seen as mean or hateful. And we are supposed to be alert and keep watch. And being alert and keeping watch means to me that you notice what’s going on around you and you make sure you stay in the truth because the last days will be filled with so much deception so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. And is it misleading to say then there is more Christian persecution if when the people you are reporting about aren’t actually Christian but are in fact catholic or some other false religion that lies and says its Christian?

          • Kimberly

            I think you misunderstand me, I am in no way defending the religion of Catholicism. You are correct in the religion itself not being biblical. But incorrect in that there are no Catholics who have a true relationship with the Lord. That is the problem with “organized religion” there are people who generalize a group of individuals based on a title, instead of judging them individually. within the Catholic Church there are individuals who believe in birth control, against the teachings of their church. And among non-denominational christians there are people who believe in abortions. No two Christians are alike, they both have their own sins. Where is the difference? one group is titled “Christian” and another is titled “catholic”. What I am saying is that in order to tell people that they are sinning, maybe spouting that they are liars and not Christian isn’t the best tactic. You may feel that you are correct in saying “Catholics are not Christians” I disagree, there maybe people within Catholic Churches who don’t know they are sinning. Like many Christians who have yet to be blessed with the eyes of the Lord to see their own wrong doings. I personally feel that if you believe that The Son of God was crucified, died for my sins, rose from the dead and continues to forgive me daily!, you are Christian. Being Christian does not immediately give you a pass to heaven though. God judges who is worthy and who isn’t. Since one sin is no better or worse than the other following the catholic principles which are against biblical teachings is no different than being envious of another, or not forgiving others. So in order to help Catholics (or ANYONE) see the truth of God’s word in the bible we have to at least be approachable for conversations of Christ. I don’t mean to be mean but you are unapproachable. If I was a catholic looking for answers that I wasn’t finding in my church, and looking for a better relationship with the Lord and I heard ANY of what you have posted I wouldn’t even consider asking you what it means to be a Christian, and THAT is against Gods teaching. What I am saying is that maybe you should consider your audience of flawed human beings when you are misinterpreting the definition of being Christian with having a relationship with Christ.
            And you mentioned in another post that you believe after we die there is a waiting period before we go meet God, that sounds very similar to catholic teachings of purgatory. Just food for thought in your studies. God bless.

          • Kimberly

            Oh and please trust me when I say I know what love means. I have lived with love and I have lived without love. Sometimes it does mean saying the thing someone doesn’t want to hear when they don’t want to hear it because they need to hear it. But if I don’t know them at all how can I effectively speak to their hearts? Maybe by getting to know them and finding out what would truly speak to their hearts. I will always be a sinner, that will never change, I will always sit at the foot of God’s table, because I will never be worthy to sit at the seat of honor. But when he told me I was a sinner and when he corrects me in life, he is holding my hand and drying my tears! And some people are only in darkness about the truth of the bible not that God died for us. We all have a journey with Christ and it’s different for everyone, but having a basic foundation of a belief in the One True God can build bridges for communications. When we judge and speak hate, people don’t see or listen to Gods love in the truth of his words; that we are forgiven no matter our sins, that the strength to live rightly lies in him, and that in His word can be found the answer to everything! But how the conversations in defense of Christ are started can set the tone of whether or not the person we are talking too even wants to hear about God. If we turn someone away from God because we weren’t portraying his gentleness and love, that’s on us, not them.

          • pax2u

            Lisa decideds who is an who is not a true “christian”, even when Catholics are Christians

          • Patrick Gildea

            great response

          • pax2u

            If this site is the Christian News Network are you named to determine who is a Christian? and who can post here?

          • Lisa

            Dear pax-I’m just giving my opinion, I have no official role or capacity, it is just my opinion. Haha when did I say you or anyone else for that matter couldn’t post here? You are just making things up again.

          • pax2u

            I was told by a poster named Douglas that by defending my Christian Catholic faith against lies I am violating the rules of this website, I should know my place
            if you believe in the Christian Trinity my Church tells me that you are my Christian sister
            I realize that since I am a Catholic and that Catholics are still allowed to be persecuted for their faith the Nativist Party and the Know Nothing Party never went away
            Since I am told that as a Catholic I am not a “christian” by those who have no denomination
            I must be humble and turn the other check as I pray for you

          • Lisa

            Haha! Note to pax-I am not Douglas and I did not tell you that. Stop treating me as if I said something when I didnt.

          • pax2u

            I did not say that you said that. I clearly said it came from a poster named Douglas, I am sorry if you missed that
            I realize that some think that discrimination of Christians is funny
            I am always happy that those who hate my faith almost never belong to a Christian denomination
            do you believe in the Trinity?
            I ask you to pray for me as I pray to my Christian God Jesus Christ for you

          • Lisa

            You clearly did not-now you’re lying to me! Goodbye pax, have a good day

          • pax2u

            I am sorry I thought you did believe in the Christian Trinity , my mistake, I apologize
            I ask you to pray for me as I pray to my Christian God Jesus Christ for you

          • pax2u

            I am sorry that this was not clear enough for you

            pax2uLisa37 minutes ago

            I was told by a poster named Douglas that by defending my Christian Catholic faith against lies I am violating the rules of this website, I should know my place

          • jmichael39

            What YOU don’t understand, Lisa, is that while much of the official dogma of the Catholic church does not line up with scripture, there are a MANY who choose to fellowship in Catholic churches who have a very solid idea of who Jesus is and why He came and cling to Him for their salvation. I’m willing to bet there are some who would challenge the official dogma of whatever church you go to.

            I have spent years meeting people from various denominations, as well as Catholic churches. In all that time, there was maybe two churches where I didn’t meet at least some people who were living faithfully in their walk with Jesus. And I can assure you, also, that some of the churches with the worst reputations for shrouding the grace and mercy of Jesus under their own self-righteousness were the ones you or I would consider the most fundamental in their dogma.

            I can tell without hesitation I hated working with those churches. The people there were invariably the most rude and obnoxious people, and, to me, the most embarrassing a representation of Christ to my fellow workers who weren’t Christians.

            You sit there quoting Matt. 7, failing to realize the log in your own eye.

          • Kimberly

            Well said! We should look at the individuals and not the organization. It comes down to the relationships.

          • jmichael39

            exactly, Kimberly. I am not saying that I don’t encourage fellow Christians to find fellowship in places where they are more likely find more biblically accurate teachings, but since its never been my assignment to determine who gets to go to heaven and who doesn’t, I’m certainly not going to do that based upon where a person fellowships.

          • Kimberly

            I agree! I encourage my catholic family to read the bible and build a relationship with God, and in doing so I pray they find the truth of God’s teachings. But if I was to tell my family that they aren’t christians they would probably never speak to me again. Then where is my influence? If I can’t be there to preach God’s mercy love and forgiveness by my actions because I told them they weren’t christians (which I don’t believe) I am not doing Gods work. Not all Christians are going to heaven, and not all Catholics are going to hell. I will never denounce the teachings of my faith, or The bible in order to be “liked” but I will make sure when I speak the truth of God’s word it is done with hope and love.

          • Lisa

            So you agree that much of the catholic church does not line up with scripture then how can you give them a pass? That does matter! A different gospel does matter. I seem to be the only one who DOES understand that. Galatians 1:8-9 but even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say to again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is accursed! I didn’t say it Paul did, he calls people preaching a contrary gospel accursed-twice even!! What Christain could stay in a false teaching church? I don’t get that. We worship God in truth and God is the Light, why would any Christian want to sit in lies and darkness? We aren’t to conform to this world but be transformed by the renewing of our minds. How can we renew our minds if we haven’t given up the old? I’m not sure what my log here is actually. We are to be alert and watch. There is much deception and I for one don’t want to be deceived. Maybe you think it’s easier and better to be one big happy family and not worry about the lies and deceptions and think that God isn’t going to care about it. I don’t think that way, I think that God does care that people are being deceived right into that lake of fire. After all John 3:16 God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten son, that whomsoever believers on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. In my eyes God cares a lot that men are being led astray and can’t find Him.

          • jmichael39

            Dang, I feel like I’m talking to a liberal atheist. Do you actually read what people write or even what you write.

            I never gave any denomination or the Catholic church a “pass”… I don’t honestly give a rat’s behind what the ‘official’ doctrine in for any church…beyond determining whether or not it would be a fairly good place to grow in faith or not. While you’re concerned with throwing the Christian out with the bath water, I’m concerned, as is Jesus I might add, with the individuals.

            “What Christain could stay in a false teaching church? I don’t get that.” – good you finally admitted it…YOU DON’T GET IT.

            The “log” in your own eye is your willingness to live by a teaching that judges individual’s salvations by where they choose to fellowship. If your church teaches that then you too are fellowshipping in a church that teaches a false doctrine…because Christ NEVER taught that. That, was the way of the Pharisees.

            “In my eyes God cares a lot that men are being led astray and can’t find Him.” – In YOUR eyes…hmmm…interesting topic for another conversation. Unfortunately for you, pointing fingers at other believing and judging the sincerity of their faith by where they fellowship isn’t doing a whole lot of good in helping anyone not be led astray, is it?

          • Lisa

            A liberal atheist-not hardly. I was at a church that most of the believers there were ex catholics. They would tell you that they learned false teaching there at the catholic church and that they all felt they should leave because it was hindering them from learning the truth and they desperately wanted to hear the truth and grow in Christ.They didn’t all go to the same catholic church but decided this individually and ended up at their current church., different churches and they ended up together. I never saw any of them sad they left but happy that they knew the truth. And they all said that they would never go back. The truth does matter.

          • jmichael39

            What I meant when I said a liberal atheist is that you have no sense of logic.

            You’re changing anyone’s mind here, Lisa. You’re still judging people’s salvations by what church they attend. Sorry, you obviously like your church, but that church ain’t what’s gonna get you to heaven anymore than the Catholic Church will be the reason why someone else WON’T go to heaven.

          • pax2u

            Lisa you are alone in your hatred part of the lunatic fringe

          • Phipps Mike

            I would have to say you are probably the dumbest Christian I ever encountered, Catholicism was the FIRST Christian Denomination.

          • pax2u

            she is a combination of ignorance and arrogance

      • Fundisi

        Lisa said nothing of the kind, it is obvious you are the one judging here and playing the Pharisee.

        • Magister_militum_praesentalis

          There is Neiman, again, playing the Pharisee Card for all it is worth.

        • jmichael39

          LMAO…I stand by my statement. While SHE (and others like you) make blanket judgments against whole segments of Christianity based upon whether the churches people attend comply with your own self-righteous ideals of who are and who are not Christian, I stand by my judgment that her statements are purely pharisaic in nature. I’m quite clear in my conscious in regards to how I see the martyrdom of these Christians, despite whether I would have agreed with them on points of dogma. You, on the hand, can keep your legalism. I’ll stand by these men, women and children who have willingly died for our Savior despite never having had you or Lisa spend time teaching them the errors of their ways.

    • Magister_militum_praesentalis

      “False christian religion” while Lisa’s beliefs constitute the only True Christianity®?

      • Lisa

        catholicism is a false religion that is the truth.

        • Magister_militum_praesentalis

          Why, because Lisa says so?

          • pax2u

            I am now told by a poster named Douglas that when Catholics defend their faith it is trolling and is not allowed on this “Christian” website

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            LOL! I saw someone have the audacity to suggest that a Catholic poster had some kind of influence over WND moderators to get his anti-Catholic remarks removed. The solipsist universe that some of these people live in!

          • pax2u

            their hatred of Christians blinds them, it consumes their eternal soul
            Wing Nut Daily has become the home of the Hebrew Roots Movement and the Seventh Day Adventists

          • pax2u

            Lisa thinks that speaks for God

        • pax2u

          but are you a Christian, or are you alone with out a church , with out a denomination and with out Christian fellowship?

    • epgomez

      Dont be self righteous and judgmental. A true Christian is somebody who loves others and dont judge others who are going to hell or not based on your biased hard core self righteous belief. Remember our Lord and Savior told us to love others and we should not be judgemental. Humility is a true Christian virtue. Catholics are Christians too. In fact almost everybody during the old days were Christians (catholics). Jesus love Catholics, protestants, all others. Everyone… all sinners are loved and will be judged based on God’s standard and not by you.

      • Lisa

        I can’t send anyone to hell and I’m glad to that’s God’s place and not mine. But I have eyes to see and I do see that the catholic religion is a different gospel and so I do believe that catholics are not Christians. Galatians 1:8-9but even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received he is to be accursed! I don’t know about you but that is pretty strong language and pretty judgemental by the way. I agree God loves everyone and He doesn’t want anyone to perish but people are gonna perish. Even people saying Lord, Lord and He will tell them age never knew them. Pretty harsh there too and these are not my words! Surely you have read these things in the Bible? You have read in Revelations 20 where people are judged and if their name is not written the book of life they ARE thrown in the lake of fire? Not my judgement but God’s.

        • pax2u

          you so nor speak as a Christian, no wonder you have no church, denominaiton or Christian fellowship

    • Patrick Gildea

      I believe Jesus has compassion on those who practice a false religion. He judges the inner person, the heart. He will change them in a twinkling of an eye when they see Him coming in the clouds. For many people in the world the only information they get about Jesus is the Catholic church, Jehovah’s witnesses and Mormon Missionaries. These people are on the front lines and we should pray for them always. It is not our place to judge them. If they are being persecuted then they must be doing something right.

      • Patrick Gildea

        My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. John 15:12-13

      • Lisa

        Patrick-God has compassion for all but that doesn’t mean He is gonna put up with false religions. He hates idols and that’s what a false religion is-something you love in place of God. You are right He judges the heart of a person but when He is see in the clouds it is ONLY the dead and living in Christ who will meet Him in the air. Sinners will not and if you read a Revelation 16 and the 7 bowls of wrath you will see how just how God feels about sinners. I don’t believe God is happy with anyone who leads people from Him for He is a jealous God. Exodus 34:14 For you shall not worship any other God for the Lord whose name is jealous is a jealous God.

        • Patrick Gildea

          I am a sinner, Saved by grace. I know and love Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior. He reveals Himself to me more and more every day. I have never met a Christian that is not a sinner. I have met some who seemed to have very little sin in their lives but I have never met any that claimed they had no sin. God Hates sin.. not the sinner. We have Jesus who advocates for us with the Father. I am grateful that I have a relationship with God that is bearing fruit. Going around telling people that they will not get to heaven because they practice a false religion, ie Catholicism is a very slippery slope and I believe ends in hell… I hope you will overcome whatever it is that causes you to be so quick to judge.

          • pax2u

            Lisa decides who is a true “christian”
            this article speaks of the persecution of Christians as she persecutes Christians

          • Patrick Gildea

            Persecution is a very strong word. I think it is unfortunate that she has not yet met any Charismatic Catholics. In this forum nobody is forced to read her words, therefore no body is being persecuted.

          • pax2u

            your correct she is unfortunate

    • Rosavera

      Your words are truly horrible… how can you use this article about the persecution of Christians when you are one of them also…? Do you not see that you are perpetrating the same anti-Christian hate when you start talking about Catholics as belonging to a false religion, do you not see you are doing the devil’s work…?

    • pax2u

      so you must love this article the persecution of Christians, showing klan burning crosses
      the Protestant Klan persecuted American Catholics

    • wandakate

      Who will enter the Kingdom of GOD? Only the ones that did the “will” of the FATHER. They were the ones who persevered. They were the ones who “obeyed” the 10 commandments. The true church is a holy church that honors the Commandments (all of them). The majority of Christians don’t and the Catholics don’t either. What you said is true, but you left out the last part, Not everyone who says to me in that day, LORD, LORD, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven but only those who do the will of my FATHER.

      • Kimberly

        But it’s impossible for any human to obey the commandments, which is why Jesus gave us a new covenant. I’m not saying the 10 commandments don’t matter but I am saying I feel there were more attainable guidelines set by Jesus.

        • wandakate

          I always thought that same thing as that is what mainstream teaches about the “new covenant”. However, in the 10 commandments I don’t find anywhere that JESUS took any of them away. They are not obsolete, they weren’t done away with at the cross. They are as relevant today as they ever were. I am not an Adventist but people think that b/c I do speak of the Sabbath day. But, for instance the 4th commandment is that we REMEMBER the Sabbath day and keep it holy, and that is still as relevant to me as keeping any of the other nine.
          Don’t they all count? Is they shall not murder any less than thou shall not covet? Or is Remember the Sabbath day not as important as Have no other GOD’s before me?
          So, I think that if we want to keep them we will keep them, I don’t agree that it’s impossible to keep the Big 10. I’m not saying all those various commandments that the Jews were under bondage of, I am saying just the BIG 10. JESUS said, that we will go to Heaven (the Kingdom of GOD) by obeying His commands.
          Didn’t JESUS say Kimberly, “IF you love me, keep my commandments”? Blessings…

    • Beach Lover

      Lisa, the fact that you refer to another religion, i.e., “Catholic” as “…some other false Christian religion,” depicts the “reason” many people have fallen away from churches. Your “better-than-thou” attitude, irregardless of who you do not care that you insult, must cease (if you are a follower of Jesus). Whatever spiritual path you are personally practicing may, to another person’s view, seem fruitless, phoney, frigid, non-spiritual, etc. I am not Catholic, nor was I raised Catholic, however, it would not matter whether you labeled a Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, etc., you chose to criticize and condemn another person’s belief (in Christ), through your harsh verbiage. Not acceptable.

      • Lisa

        I am a follower of Jesus and I am only being alert like He tells us to be. I have studied what catholics believe. Before that I had no opinion one way or another and gave them the benefit of the doubt as to their being Christians. However after studying the religion against scripture I became persuaded that catholicism is not Christian. I don’t say that with hate or malice but just as truth. I think that truth is better than getting along to get along. If they were a Christian religion why have Catholics and Protestants been separated for so long? The answer is because there is a difference and at one time people believed that and died rather then be catholics because they knew it was a false religion. People nowadays seem to have forgotten that. The pope is a leader in trying to reunite all christians under the catholic banner. The Bible tells us that people will be deceived the closer that we get to the return of Jesus and you must be on the alert to not fall for the deception and fall away from the faith. The world is on a path being united again to form a one world government to give rise to the antichrist uniting religions that never before have been united seems to be a move in that direction. Not just religions all peoples. So if you think you’re being a real Christian by accepting catholics and whomever else I would urge you to study what other people believe and check that against scripture. We are to only trust God and not man because men get things wrong and follow the deception that they like better then the truth in Gods word.

        • Beach Lover

          I pray to Jesus, and I ask for divine protection daily, for myself as well as my family, and trust the Holy Spirit will guide me according to Jesus’ direction for my life. Many people are preaching and gathering a flock (without the education that is required by many organized, religious denominations), and possibly without the spiritual calling from Jesus Christ. I am careful. Thank you for your explanation according to your beliefs.

  • Galaxy Cat

    May His Holiness and Strength prevail, the Day of the Dragon approaches, he is already defeated, in his doctrine it is acknowledged, God will Bring Salvation, these our Brothers and Sisters in Christ, you are the richest of us!

  • pax2u

    burning crosses, looks with the Protestant Ku Klux Klan that hates Blacks, Jews and Catholics

    • jmichael39

      those weren’t Christians in the KKK, they were democrats.

      • pax2u

        they were required to be members of a protestant Church

      • pax2u

        A religious tone was present in its activities; “two-thirds of the national Klan lecturers were Protestant ministers,” says historian Brian R. Farmer

  • Shriven

    what a useless organisation. North Korea persecute against ALL religion that isn’t the dear leader worship, Islam, Buddhism, Christian, Judaism, Scientology, flying spaghetti monster, So don’t winge about them being the leader in christian persecution. Grow a brain.

  • Omar Rivera

    Look in youtube the popes throne and then tell me what you think of the roman Catholic church.

    • Magister_militum_praesentalis

      If it is on youtube, it MUST be accurate and true!

      • pax2u

        could be worse they could be sourcing a Jack Chick hate comic

  • Truthhurts24

    Matthew 5:10
    Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness sake for theirs is the kingdom of heaven

  • Rosavera

    My heart aches and my head throbs in pain when i read words about the brutalities against our brethren … my daily prayer is for our Lord Jesus to send Michael the Archangel with his army and protect these persecuted Christians and to battle this swarm of evil to convert them to the Lord or send them back in the hole they came out of…

  • Rosavera

    It is amazing how so many, right here, will use ANY article, ANY forum to spew hate for other Christians and, of course, the choice one is always Catholics… heed the warning you Philistines : “Truly, I say to you, even the publicans and prostitutes will enter the Kingdom of God before you.” …

    • pax2u

      very sad an article on the persecution of Christians
      and some who think that they are “true” Christians attacking Christian Catholics

      • wandakate

        I knew a women who was raised Catholic, and she remained that way until around 40 something and she got it of the church. She stated that the Catholics aren’t Christians to begin with. I would wonder if she wasn’t right. The Pope wants to form a One World Religion and join together the Catholics, the Christians and the Muslims all in one religion under one umbrella called Chrislam. JESUS wanted us in unity, He wanted us to be one, but He was referring to the Jews and the Gentiles only.

        • pax2u

          interesting anecdote that can not be supported

          I knew a guy who lived down the street of this other guy who used to bowl with this guy who said that he know a guy who knew all about the Catholic Church, but he could not remember that guys name, but he said he saw it on the internet so it must be true

          Did you know that the Pope has a super duper computer that watches you through your computer, yes it is true, I saw it on the internet

          • wandakate

            I haven’t said anything except what that woman said. And what I have said about the Pope arranging a new religion is true, and the Pope knows it, and everybody else knows that has read these reports about it. They met at the Vatican several times. If it is what he is doing then that’s his prerogative…

          • pax2u

            she was wrong, and the Pope is not promoting anything called Chrislam
            The Pope has tried to bring together Jewish and Muslim leaders to pray for peace in the Middle East, the Pope is a humble servant of our Christian God Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ was called the Prince of Peace
            can you support your statement that the Pope is arranging a new religion with a link to an actual quote made by the Pope,
            and not from an anti Catholic hate site

          • wandakate

            I saw the pictures on the computer of the Pope as he has a meeting at the Vatican with Kenneth Copeland, James Robison, and a Muslim Cleric. They had gathered to discuss that issue. He also met with Joel Osteen because it showed the two of them at that private meeting.
            The Pope seems to want unity with all these other religions. It’s not a secret by any means. It’s been on the internet a few times and many many people are aware of it. I have had friends that are Catholic and they are godly, wonderful people. SO, don’t mistunderstand that I am bashing them b/c I am not…I don’t know anything else about any of it.

          • Lisa

            The pope is indeed trying to unite the religions together. I watched the video of Kenneth Copeland and a Mr. Palmer (can’t remember his first name, he died shortly after the video) the pope asked Kenneth Copeland and his followers to pray for him. And they did. Rick Warren is also helping to unite catholics with his followers as well and speaks very well of the catholic church

          • pax2u

            wow, you support the weak minded conspiracy theorys of those who want them to be true,
            oh no the horror, the Pope asked someone to pray for him, wow,
            I realize that no one has ever asked you to pray for them, and you would Never Pray for anyone else, otherwise it would be idol worship
            It does speak very well of the Catholic Church
            You speak hate and anger
            The Pope is a humble servant of our Christian God, Jesus Christ
            The Pope follows the Real Christian message of Love and Compassion

          • Lisa

            Haha!

          • pax2u

            the manic laugther of the mentally insecure

          • pax2u

            Fundisiwandakate3 hours ago
            A. You deny attending it, but your every belief is straight from the 7th Day Adventist Church and from man.

          • wandakate

            Could you tell me what I said that sounds like it came from what the Adventist believe? What exactly was it? Everything I said came out of the Bible, not from any particular church or man as you say.

          • pax2u

            I am just deferring to the Bible expert Neiman/Fundisi

          • pax2u

            seeing pictures on the internet is your support for a conspiracy theory?

            where you at this “private” meeting were the illuminati, the Bildebergers, and the bohemian grove members in attendance delivered by black helicopters to discuss floride in the water supply and chem trails?

            you dillusional accusations are rather a weak form of evidence

            When you make an outlandish statement you should be able to support it with direct and supportable evidence other wish your comment appears foolish and under cuts your credibility.

            The Pope is watching you through your computer screen, I know that it is true, cause I saw it on the internet, oh and that is called sarcasm

            and you are correct on one point,
            your knowledge about the Catholic Church

            “I don’t know anything else about any of it.”

          • wandakate

            Read Lisa’s comment. She claims that she actually saw the video of the Pope with Kenneth Copeland. Many people are aware of the new One World Religion (Christians, Catholics, Muslims). It’s not like it’s some big secret.

          • pax2u

            what a shock, the Pope prays with Protestants, better then some of the anti Catholics here who say that Catholics are not Christians
            any luck with a link to a direct quote from the Pope about starting the One World Religion?

          • pax2u

            the lunatic fringe will always grasp crazy conspiracy theories

  • Phipps Mike

    I really think that this article displays how important it is to just shut up about your own religion. It obviously has passed just danger. A persons life is more important than the pride of their stated religion.

    • wandakate

      Yes, it’s not our religion that matters anyway. Being whatever religion one claims to be isn’t going to get them to heaven. It’s their hearts condition and their relationship with the LORD, if they persevere til the end of time and fight for their faith (their beliefs). It’s the ones who do the commandments as best as they can and strive to serve the LORD in good times and in bad. JESUS said, Not everyone who says to me on that day LORD LORD, but only the ones who do the will of the FATHER, will be in the Kingdom of GOD.

  • Kachina

    Tell me..where are Christians moving to?