Florida School Board Votes to Ban Bibles Over Satanists Seeking to Pass Out Coloring Books

Satanic TempleORLANDO, Fla. — A school board in Florida has voted to ban all religious materials from being distributed in public schools after a New York-based Satanist group

As previously reported, the Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) learned in 2013 that the Christian ministry World Changes had made Bibles available to Orlando high school students on “Religious Freedom Day.” To counter the Bible distribution, FFRF sought permission from the school district to give students a variety of atheistic and anti-Christian materials.

According to reports, the Orange County School Board permitted FFRF to distribute several books and pamphlets, including a booklet entitled “What’s Wrong With The Ten Commandments?” and a brochure entitled “What Is An Atheist?” However, the board prohibited FFRF from giving students several other publications, citing the materials’ “disruptive” and inappropriate content.

FFRF promptly sued the school board for not allowing the distribution of the materials, and eventually it complied with the organization’s demands. In July, a district judge officially dismissed the FFRF lawsuit, thus giving the green light to the in-school distribution of atheistic materials.

Following the decision, the New York-based Satanic Temple announced last September that it would likewise distribute its publications to area schools so that it can have its equal time before students.

“I am quite certain that all of the children in these Florida schools are already aware of the Christian religion and it’s Bible, and this might be the first exposure these children have to the actual practice of Satanism,” spokesperson Lucien Greaves wrote in a press release about the matter. “We think many students will be very curious to see what we offer.”

One of the items that the group sought to distribute was The Satanic Children’s Big Book of Activities, which includes a coloring page that features “Annabel’s study filled with Satanic literature and philosophy,” a pentagram connect the dots complete with a goat’s head, and a secret code that reads “Satana Blessed Be.”

  • Connect with Christian News

But the Orange County School board said in November that the distribution policy was being abused through these efforts and had become a distraction to the learning environment. It then moved to consequently ban the distribution of all religious materials in order to end the competition between the various groups.

“This really has, frankly, gotten out of hand,” Orange County Chairman Bill Sublette told reporters. “I think we’ve seen a group or groups take advantage of the open forum we’ve had. … In my office alone I had received close to 11,000 emails in one period on this issue, and it gives you an idea of the level of disruption it was causing.”

“Everyone’s upset about the Satanists and the atheists coming,” added board member Christine Moore.

The board consequently decided to put a halt to all requests from outside groups until the distribution policy is revised. On Tuesday, the Orange County School Board officially voted 7-1 to ban all religious materials from being distributed in public schools within the district.

Christians groups state that they are disappointed with the move.

“If my client is turned away because my client is a religious organization, then I think we’ll have grounds to sue the school board based on an unconstitutional policy,” Roger Gannam of the Christian legal organization Liberty Counsel told WFTV.

But the board said that it is not concerned about legal challenges.

“This board has been fully briefed on the legal issues,” Sublett stated.


A special message from the publisher...

Dear Reader, our hearts are deeply grieved by the ongoing devastation in Iraq, and through this we have been compelled to take a stand at the gates of hell against the enemy who came to kill and destroy. Bibles for Iraq is a project to put Arabic and Kurdish audio Bibles into the hands of Iraqi and Syrian refugees—many of whom are illiterate and who have never heard the gospel.Will you stand with us and make a donation today to this important effort? Please click here to send a Bible to a refugee >>

Print Friendly
  • Fundisi

    A world turned upside down, since the day the Liberal Warren Court issued the first decision based on the lie of separation of Church and State, kicking God out of the Public Square, there was no doubt where we were headed, because of liberal activist judges/courts and legislatures, secular-humanism has become of national religion, our State Church. Then these liberals with atheists, gays and every fringe group have mounted a massive attack on the Christian faith in this country, they are all members of the same godless army waging war on the Christian Church in America. The cheap thugs that they are, they have made it impossible for school districts, not that most are not liberal anyway, to be able to defend the lawsuits by these groups trying to silence the Christ faith. As God told us, we will lose this war, Satan through these groups will succeed in making all Bible based Christians go underground, they will make all bible based Christian activity into a crime against the State.

    • Paul Hiett

      What’s wrong with keeping religion in homes and churches, and out of our public facilities?

      • James Grimes

        Everything is wrong with that idea. Are you an Atheist?

        • Fundisi

          Yes, he is!

          • James Grimes

            It was obvious. The Useless are stalking this site to tell us poor Christians how wrong we are. Haha.

          • Paul Hiett

            Oh look, a Christian insulting an atheist. I’m guessing that whole “love they neighbor” thing is limited to Jesus, eh?

          • tyler

            Other christians try to be kind to non christians. but on here we see people like James call them ‘The Useless’.
            I don’t think your God likes the way you refer to non christians.

          • Douglas

            He is not referring to non-Christians as a whole. He is referring to the atheists who come here to stir up trouble and harass Christians. As a seemingly self proclaimed atheist I find your choice to consider what God likes or doesn’t like to be interesting.

            Just remember, we are called to love but also to be set apart from the world. We are not mindless robots who have to take abuse and waste our time on people who come here to stir up trouble.

            The Christians you find here are more than happy to help you and to answer your questions. If you come to James, for example, with a real sincere question or comment, posted in a respectful way, he will no doubt answer you in a respectful and loving manner.

          • tyler

            Please show me where I ‘stirred up trouble’. And please explain to me how James is loving when he uses the blanket term ‘The Useless’ to refer to non christians. How is that respectful or helpful to fellow human beings?

          • Douglas

            I’m sorry but I didn’t see where he referred to you specifically as “The Useless”. I wasn’t referring to you specifically when I referred to atheists who come to stir up trouble. I was just trying to explain the position as I saw it. You did agree with Paul who is obviously here to troll and stir up trouble so you very well could have been lumped in there, but that’s not my say.

          • Paul Hiett

            Really? I’m “trolling”?

          • Guest
          • Paul Hiett

            If you think asking legitimate questions, and providing a different perspective (without insulting anyone, mind you) is trolling, well, then I guess I’ll make myself at home here under my bridge.

          • Lisa

            James always refers to non Christians as useless and I agree with Tyler that God would not like that. I am a Christian by the way and I cannot stand when I see James insult people on here. Maybe some are trolling but I think as a Christian we don’t have to take the things said personally and try to answer questions as well as we can. If James really is so above it he shouldn’t answer them and he shouldn’t insult them.

          • tyler

            Thank you again Lisa. I’m fascinated by different views on here, and maybe somehow my goal was to find someone like you that is more compassionate to an outsider, like yourself. I’ll keep reading, but I feel good to read some form of kindness and compassion from you.

          • Douglas

            Perhaps you are right that it may be better to not say anything at all but I can at least understand his frustration.

            If you are a Christian, perhaps you should comment to James directly and talk to him about this. Check out Galatians 6:1.

          • Lisa

            I just wanted to verify that James does tell people they are useless. I have already tried to talk to James about what he says. The last thing he told me about 15 minutes ago was that I was dismissed.

          • Douglas

            I see it, but you failed to do so with a spirit of meekness. Your comments come across as no better than the ones you are complaining about. Try pointing out a better way to handle the issues instead of just throwing him under the bus to show that you are better. And try to be patient, remember, he doesn’t know who you are.

          • Lisa

            I’m sorry I’m not sure what comments you are talking about that were no better than his. If you could tell me which one or ones those are I would appreciate it. I wasn’t throwing him under the bus to show I am better-I absolutely, 100% do not agree with how he talks to people. I did give him an example in a different post and told him that maybe if he is so frustrated he should pray and seek God before he comments. As to you last comment what does that mean?

          • James Grimes

            Absolutely! Unfortunately, Tyler has been pointed the finger since he started to post on this forum.

          • Lisa

            I agree with you Tyler, I don’t believe God likes the way he speaks to non Christians either.

          • tyler

            I’m just trying to wrap my head around the condescending, holier-than-thou attitude of some people on here. I thought their point was to be nice to everyone, and hopefully try to convert and evangelize in a kind, non-pushy way, without alienating outsiders.

          • Lisa

            I understand how you feel, I’m a Christian and I’m shocked at how some people who call themselves Christians talk to others here. I have tried to talk to James for him to stop but I don’t know him personally and he won’t listen to me. I’m not sure the point of Christianity is to be nice to people but kindness is something we should do and we should be able to answer questions without being insulting.

          • tyler

            And one final thought – maybe the most important – I have some views, and I’ve spouted a little on here, mostly I feel because of feeling some hate or anger toward myself. but to know someone like you has some compassion makes me much less likely to want to angrily challenge others on here.
            take note, others – follow more of Lisa’s writing style..

          • Lisa

            Thank you Tyler for your kind words. I don’t know why some people here insult you and treat you poorly, I don’t agree with them, I think they are wrong to do that. For myself, it’s not hard to listen and try to have a conversation, I understand that it may hard for you to believe but that doesn’t give me the right to insult you.

          • Rose

            lost cause, I tried too. He claims intolerance towards others but it’s no excuse. However I do have to say when he does engage in a debate (excluding insults) he does make a few good points, so I give him his props there 🙂

          • Lisa

            I’ve never seen anything but the insults. So he makes some good points but ruins it with the insults, that’s too bad.

          • Rose

            I agree. If people have so much passion for sharing the gospel they shouldn’t ruin it with such cruelty. It only ruins their witness and the witness of all the other Christians out there. At any rate, I have a request to ask of you. Could you please answer a few questions for me through e-mail? It’s for a blog of mine and I want to get a variety of opinions.

          • Lisa

            Is that what he’s doing? Sharing the gospel-I don’t see it. I think his attitude ends up reflecting badly on God which is worse. I’m sorry, I don’t give my email. You can ask me here.

          • Rose

            He’s sharing the gospel in his own way, at least that’s the conclusion I came to. His approach is undeniably flawed, but yes, that’s what I think he’s trying to do. And fair enough, I’ll ask you the questions here. (If anybody else comes across and sees this then please do give your opinion either here or you can send it to my email at [email protected] )

            1. Your denomination/religion
            2. Does God have a special way of speaking to you (I’ve heard several different types of speech like through the repetition of numbers, a regular conversation, ect ect.)
            3. Your testimony(s)
            4. How do you feel towards anybody of an opposing religion?
            5. What do you think the main problem with the world is?

            I know it’s a lot to ask but I do like some serious elaboration. If you need more time to think on these I understand, and like I said you can contact me through here or on my Facebook page, FireTime. And Thanks 😀

          • Lisa

            I’ll think about it-thanks

          • The Last Trump

            Hi ladies. Sorry to intrude. Just wanted to add my two cense concerning James. He’s definitely a defender of our faith and a genuine Christian. However, he has been on this forum for some time now and has been victim to constant attack by atheists and militant LGBT “Christians” who argue endlessly and label Christians who defend the Bible as “HATERS”.
            James has had his share of torment from these individuals and has learned to avoid engaging them in their games. Might seem a little gruff to newcomers but trust me, some of these folks have earned it by there inexcusable behaviour. Stick around and you’ll see what I mean!
            God bless!

          • Lisa

            You’re not intruding-I appreciate the info, since I’m appalled by his insults. I am pretty new to posting so I haven’t seen the torment your talking about. It seems to me that he should just take a break for awhile then. He really makes himself look bad and I wonder then if it cancels out the good he does say?

          • Spoob

            Actually, this is complete nonsense. The problem with James, as with you, Trumpy, is that you want to be the ones to define what a Christian is to the exclusion of all others. I’m sure James, Gary and yourself would have absolutely no problem telling Lisa that she is a “Christian” (note the mocking quotation marks) and all the same crap you have doled out to Pax and myself for having the nerve to suggest that homosexuals are human beings and don’t need your self-righteous judgement and hate.

          • James Grimes

            Thanks for the support. For the record, the following is the only comment that I have received from Lisa –

            Lisa James Grimes • 19 hours ago
            Please don’t talk for other Christians James. I would debate a non Christian. They aren’t beneath me and a waste of my time.
            I found the comment to be arrogant and condescending, so I had dismissed her as an angry person. If she feels badly about this, it is unfortunate. She could have been more cordial and I would have engaged her in conversation.

          • tyler

            Thank you Lisa. This gives me hope. I read other comments from you and like your inclusive outlook. While I’m a non-believer, I like to be inclusive of everyone, and try to explore some deeper points. I have several neighbors that are pastors, and they are the nicest people on earth – even though I don’t go to their church or believe the same that they do. That gives me a new outlook on people who have different beliefs than me.

          • The Last Trump

            I was once a believer in evolution and an outspoken critic of the Bible and Christianity. Until I checked it out. I was amazed to discover that everything I had ever heard attacking the reliability of the Bible proved to be FALSE. In EVERY case.

            I also discovered that evolution makes a lot of bold assurances with absolutely nothing solid backing up its claims. Opinions, conjecture and guesswork is NOT science! And this ridiculously flawed theory flies in the face of the overwhelming evidence we see before us of unmistakeable DESIGN.

            You tell me which premise is more believable:

            In the beginning there was NOTHING. Then, IT EXPLODED!? And from NOTHING came EVERYTHING! And somehow, via mysterious and scientifically unduplicated and unproven processes with fanciful names like “natural selection” (a.k.a. “magic”) both males and females were formed. And, wouldn’t
            you know, there just happened to be a rich variety of food sources to go around to sustain everything. Riiiight. “Science”!

            Or, in the beginning there was GOD. Who very skillfully created this physical dimension we inhabit with enormous complexity and purpose.

            Well, what does the actual evidence have to tell us?

            Scientists across the globe are confirming that the data they are finding indicates that there is nothing random or “evolved” about the universe. It’s actually shaken some of them up to discover just how “fine-tuned” our universe is. In fact, all indicators point to a match with the order of events as listed in the book of
            Genesis.

            The Bible for thousands of years has told us that creation began suddenly when God proclaimed, “Let there be light.” Further, the Bible repeatedly states that God has “stretched out the heavens.” Interesting choice of words as it turns out. Scientists today are confirming that our universe indeed had a beginning, a sudden explosion of light followed by rapid expansion. Yet, only a short time ago Albert Einstein and his peers, the greatest scientific minds of the twentieth century, were CONVINCED that the universe was a constant. That it just always WAS. And so the scientific “crowd” scoffed at Bible believing Christians with their ridiculous Creation account. Until Hubble came along and with scientific measurement confirmed the Biblical account of Creation. Einstein and the greatest minds of the twentieth century, WRONG. Bible RIGHT.

            Take a look at the marvel that is the human body. What an incredibly complex machine! Flip through the different systems of our bodies and then try to “fit” evolution into what you are actually seeing. Little harder to buy that crap when you are face to face with the evidence. Circulatory system, nervous system, skeletal system, muscular system, digestive system, endocrine system, immune system, urinary system, reproductive system, respiratory system. Ridiculous integration and complexity in design! That didn’t happen by accident. That’s like claiming a space shuttle created itself from nothing with all of its complex systems and components from heat shields and landing gear to seat belts, windows, flight control systems and parachutes. Absolute nonsense. Obvious complexity of DESIGN WITH PURPOSE.

            The fact is, Creation itself testifies of our Creator. Just the discoveries in a strand of DNA should have ended all debate a long time ago: “DNA is an INFORMATION CODE. The overwhelming conclusion is that information DOES NOT and CANNOT arise spontaneously by mechanistic processes. INTELLIGENCE is a NECESSITY in the origin of any informational code, including the genetic code, NO MATTER HOW MUCH TIME IS GIVEN.”
            (Lane Lester, Ph.D. Genetics, The Natural Limits to Biological Change, 1989.)

            If you are truly interested in seeking evidence of God, the evidence IS there for the finding. Ahhh, but WHICH God, eh?!

            Let me know if you would like me to elaborate further. This post is long enough already!

            Here’s a couple of documentaries on recent findings that are causing scientists today to agree with Intelligent Design. Whatever your conclusion, these discoveries are verrrry interesting and thought provoking. See what you think.
            The Privileged Planet

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClarWNaCEVM

            The Case For A Creator

            https://vimeo.com/20197160

          • Spoob

            James could learn a thing or two from you Lisa.

          • Douglas

            http://christiannews.net/contact-us/comment-guidelines/

            They seem to have the most trouble with items 3, 4, and 5.

          • James Grimes

            Absolutely. The Useless violate the forum’s standards of behavior a lot. Some are civil, but most are contentious.

          • Spoob

            When are you going to stop with the name calling? People have the right to disagree with you.

          • James Grimes

            Atheist Spoob’s Comments About Christians Directed to
            Other Atheists

            Spoob pax2u 3 days ago
            Grimy re-edited his post above in the hopes that none of
            his “fans” would see it and respond to him. Have a look.
            Spoob pax2u 4 days ago
            And what does it say about Grimes that the first mention of his “dear Christian brothers and sisters” is for all his fellow bigots and haters?
            Spoob pax2u 4 days ago
            And now he says the Crusades were not the fault of the Christians, but the Catholics.
            Spoob pax2u 4 days ago
            I can’t begin to explain. He’s so bafflingly stupid. So is Gary, who’s gone all anti-Catholic in the Obama thread.
            Spoob Magister_militum_praesentalis 4 days ago
            He s pretty free with the insults, that’s for sure…
            Spoob Terry Roll 4 days ago
            He s easily the angriest person on this forum. Gary’s the craziest but Grimes is he angriest. Neither lives a particularly good example of why anyone would
            ever WANT to be a Christian. No love, no hope, no forgiveness. All bile.
            Spoob Tyler 4 days ago
            Tyler, ow that Grimes has officially said “good-bye” to you, implying you on’t hear from him again, be sure to keep and eye open because he’s going to ontinue to diss you to other people.
            Spoob Terry Roll 4 days ago
            He nd Oboehner spend nights of passion together as they dream of the deaths of omosexuals and Catholics.
            Spoob OldArkie 5 days ago
            Gary lso wants to kill homosexuals and Catholics. Still want to agree with him?
            Spoob dark477 5 days ago
            I can answer that. Because Grimes is impervious to facts. He’s a sad, cold, onely and angry little man.
            Spoob Badkey 5 days ago
            He an’t even rely on mythology, but who needs that when your hate is as strong as Gary’s?
            Spoob 5 days ago
            Not he first time he’s said something bafflingly stupid. He has also said that the irst Amendment only protects Christians.
            Spoob Ken 5 days ago
            What we were just discussing applies to this guy, Last Trump – you will not get anywhere. You’ll get lots of self-satisfied sarcasm and name calling, though.
            Spoob Oshtur 6 days ago
            Welcome to the Wonderful World of Trumpy. Always in there like a dirty shirt when the subject is the mean bad wicked satanic homosexuals. He loves to play to the crowd, I am seeing all the usual hallmarks – the sarcasm, the “too funnys”, the “hee hees”, the self-aggrandizing. He hopes to be mistaken for someone witty someday.
            Spoob MC 7 days ago
            And then there are people like Trump who claim that God talks to them. We’re not talking about paragons of stability here.
            Spoob MC 7 days ago
            Gary has stated it quite openly, that homosexuals should be put to death. Administration here seems to take no issue with it.
            Spoob davidreilly7 7 days ago
            Pay no attention to Grimes. He hates everything but likes to pretend he’s a Christian.
            Spoob MC 7 days ago
            You haven’t been paying very close attention then if you think this place is full of ideal Chrsitians. You have Gary who would like to execute all gay people “in the name of God”, Oboehner whose choice names for homosexuals include “fur trader” and “turd burglar”, you have fun people like Trumpy and Fundisi who rail against “perversion” in every single breath over the fairly mundane subject of homosexuality – these are not Christians in my experience. And if they are, then you need to understand that there are certain factions of Christianity which are utterly, utterly evil.
            Spoob pax2u 8 days ago
            Gary’s merely nuts. Trump is dangerous.
            Spoob pax2u 8 days ago
            I’m starting to think Gary, Grimes, Trump, etc. are trolls. No one could possibly be this hateful.
            Spoob R.A. 9 days ago
            BRAVO! I hope psychotic pseudo-Christians like “The Last Trump” read your words and take them to heart!

          • Spoob

            That’s right, Grimy, it’s called giving you a taste of your own medicine. So how do you like it?

          • Spoob

            Incidentally Grimy, I once said you were the worst Christian I had ever seen, and you are – in spades.

          • The Last Trump

            !!
            I take offense to that.
            I’m #1. Remember?

          • James Grimes

            No, I’m #1.

          • The Last Trump

            Alright, it’s a draw. Tied for first! 😉

          • James Grimes

            OK, let’s share. We are both ” the worst Christian I (Spoob) had ever seen, and you are – in spades.”

          • The Last Trump

            🙂

          • tyler

            that’s funny, because you’re violating those same standards

          • James Grimes

            Douglas, just to clarify… when I use the term “The Useless,” I am referring to the militant atheists who are doing what they can to minimize or downplay the importance of Christianity in our culture. Some are here trolling this site to be disagreeable; others are “out there” making life difficult for Christians. This includes some of the well-known atheist organizations. Just so you know…

          • Douglas

            Thank you. I didn’t mean to speak for you. I just didn’t know if you would see the posts. I don’t like to see people misunderstanding and mis characterizing you or your words.

        • Paul Hiett

          Yes, and your grammar lesson for today is learning how to not capitalize the word “atheist”.

          Public schools, government facilities, etc, are no place for anyone’s religion. How could you possibly legislate something like this, when we have over 4200 known religions…and 42000 denominations of Christianity alone?

          You folks can’t even agree on what you believe in, so why should we allow religion into our public schools and government offices?

          • James Grimes

            Then why are stalking a Christian site? That alone shows your arrogance.

          • Paul Hiett

            Just engaging in civil debate…well, for the most part. Some of you prefer to insult, rather than actually debate anything though.

          • James Grimes

            Personally, I will not waste my time debating an atheist. That’s probably true of other Christians as well.

          • Paul Hiett

            I know, scared of the truth. It’s ok.

          • pax2u

            realize those who will not debate, have nothing to debate, the self righteous “christians” who are busy hating any one who does not agree with them, they are the “useless”

            there are many Christians who believe in the message of Jesus Christ of Love and Mercy, and then there are the “useless” who hate all who disagree with their hatred of the “others”

          • Paul Hiett

            42000 denominations…that’s a lot of hate!

          • Lisa

            Please don’t talk for other Christians James. I would debate a non Christian. They aren’t beneath me and a waste of my time.

          • James Grimes

            You have been dismissed.

          • tyler

            have a snickers James.. you seem grumpy

          • James Grimes

            Good bye. Have a nice day.

          • Paul Hiett

            You too James!

          • tyler

            I’m glad you’re here Paul – I like to hear lively debate. While I’m an atheist myself, I do like it when debate is civil and you learn something from both sides.

      • Fundisi

        Why do you want to disenfranchise a great many American citizens and deny them the right to share their faith in the public square? Why do you hate the Constitution and liberty for people of faith? Be honest, wouldn’t you like to see all bible believing Christians in jail and their children taken away from them?

        • Paul Hiett

          First, I’m not sure where you got the idea I’d like to see anyone jailed for believing what they choose to believe in.

          There is no disenfranchising involved in keeping religion out of our public schools and facilities. You only want Christian material allowed, don’t you? That seems a little selfish and intolerant on your part.

          Religion should be someone’s choice, not required reading, and no single religion should have a monopoly on the material that gets handed out. The best course is to allow no religion at all into the facilities that are tax revenue supported.

          • Fundisi

            I apologize Paul, see I thought that Christians were taxpayers too. In fact, since the vast majority of the American people still profess a Christian faith, I just assumed the majority of those taxes were paid by Christian minded people. Also, I was under the mistaken idea that the majority were not, according to the Constitution, forced to submit to the tyranny of the majority.

            Where is it that anyone is required to read any Christian materials?

          • Paul Hiett

            Are you suggesting that the majority get to decide what the minority is exposed to? Is belief in Christianity required to attend public schools in America? I missed that memo…

            The majority of Christians used to support Jim Crow laws, and keeping black/white marriage illegal. Do you think they were in the right simply because they were the majority?

            If Islam was the predominant religion in American, would you support their claim to keep Christianity in the shadows, and Islam a part of public school education?

            Are you so tolerant when the shoe is on the other foot?

          • Fundisi

            If in an Islamic country, I expect to be treated as a second class citizen, silenced and denied my rights to express my faith.

            I get sick of you people comparing homosexual conduct to racism, they are not comparable at all, homosexual conduct is not a civil rights issue, it does not deny anyone their rights based on immutable human characteristics.

            I am saying that the majority does not have to submit to the tyranny of the minority in the public square.

          • Paul Hiett

            So you’re of the opinion that homosexuality is a choice, yes?

            Also, no one should be silenced in the public square, even if what they say goes against the majority belief. That means that you need to tolerate the viewpoints of others just as you are expecting them to tolerate yours.

            It’s a two way street.

          • Fundisi

            Homosexual conduct is always a choice. Every human is born heterosexual, because of sin and other forces in their lives, some people give in to unnatural sexual lusts and engage in homosexual conduct and they have a perverse idea of human relationships. Yet, despite their deviation from their nature, they remain heterosexuals engaged in willful, destructive homosexual conduct.

            Everyone has access to the public square, we must tolerate the views of others, but that does not mean the majority has to submit to the demands, the tyranny of every minority, submission to every minority demand is the false seed that has sown moral anarchy in this nation and that to our destruction as a people.

          • Paul Hiett

            Well apparently I said something in my first post that is not allowed. Go figure.

            1. Do you find men at all appealing to you in a sensual manner?

            2. Do you realize that over 1500 species of animals, humans included, engage in homosexual conduct? This would seem to counter your argument that homosexuals are deviating from nature. This would indicate you are questioning your god, since you seem to think he made them, would it not?

            3. Finally, has history taught you nothing about allowing the majority to rule the minority with indiscretion? Jim Crow laws, Women’s rights, etc?

          • Fundisi

            1. No!
            2. There is no homosexual conduct within the animal kingdom, it has been proven that any sexual contacts in that regard are caused not by love or sexual need, but matters of aggression, power, dominance and other things. If you wanted to use that as an excuse for aberrant human behavior, then we also find cannibalism in the animal kingdom and thus the human species should have no moral objections to cannibalism among people as well. There are other things common, like killing their offspring and mates; and to excuse any sexual conduct falsely thought to be homosexual in nature, would demand we accept all the others as being normal as well.
            3. I am weary of this most damnable lie, there is no comparison of any kind between discrimination based on immutable characteristics such as skin color and deviant, sexual conduct. Otherwise, every sort of sexual deviancy, no matter how vile, should also be fully defended on civil rights ground as well. The fact is willful, deviant conduct and immutable characteristics are not comparable at all.

          • pax2u

            sad that the self righteous are so filled with hatred,

            crazy gary wants the government to execute homosexuals, some Catholics, and me, and his allies will encourage him until he does go over the edge, and then it will be some one else’s fault, of course not theirs

          • James Grimes

            Very true. Thanks for sharing. The Atheist will deny to others that they want for themselves.

      • pax2u

        the same self righteous who want faith in the public square will condemn a Christmas Nativity Scene as being Idolatrous and of course too Catholic

        • James Grimes

          This is simply not true. It is a false statement.

          • pax2u

            I thought that you were ignoring those who disagree with your hatred,

          • James Grimes

            You are a liar. Nothing you say on this site is true. I do mean NOTHING.

          • Paul Hiett

            Too funny.

          • pax2u

            sad angry jimmy grimmy supports crazy gary who wants the government to execute those who he disagrees

          • pax2u

            I see that you are responding, I realize that you are filled with hatred and agree with crazy gary who wants the government to execute those who he hates, like me

            I will continue to pray to my Christian God, Jesus Christ for your eternal soul

            you are my Christian brother, is that a lie, and do you want me to be executed as crazy gary does,

            you are incoherent and truly you are the “useless”

            seek mental health care and do not harm anyone, I will pray for you to Jesus Christ, amen

          • pax2u

            you are a Christian or is that not true?

          • pax2u

            I believe that you are a Christian, is that a lie

            as a Catholic do you believe that I am a Christian?

          • James Grimes

            This is pathetically INCOHERENT.

          • pax2u

            we TRUE Christians ignore your incoherent rants, which are the sign that you are truly the “useless” it is best that you have no church or denomination you are the “useless” lunatic fringe

            I pray to my Christian God, Jesus Christ for your eternal soul, amen

            if you ever become an American, Please, PLEASE, learn to communicate in ENGLISH, you are truly “useless” and sad

          • James Grimes

            Wow! This is a crazy man babbling.

          • pax2u

            I ask my Christian God, Jesus Christ to forgive you and I pray to Jesus Christ for your eternal soul, amen

          • James Grimes

            This is a lie. You have no clue. You are delusional, incoherent, and a liar. Do everyone a favor and stop posting your craziness.

          • pax2u

            I believe that you are a Christian and forgive you your hatred of me and my faith

            I ask my Christian God, Jesus Christ to forgive you and I will continue to pray for your eternal soul. amen

          • Gary

            If he is a Christian, why does he need forgiveness? And why is his soul in danger?

          • pax2u

            wow, just wow

            so you really believe that a Christian does not need forgiveness?

            gary are you really a muslim who believes that they do not need forgiveness, and can kill and still receive paradise and their 72 virigins?

            I am sorry gary I did not know

            but crazy gary, I will still pray to my Christian God, Jesus Christ for your eternal soul, amen

          • pax2u

            Gary there is a Christian pray that says

            “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us”

            Gary I realize that you have never heard this prayer before

          • Gary

            What does James need forgiveness for?

          • pax2u

            is James with out sin? are you with out sin? are you a Christian?

          • Gary

            Answer the question. You obviously think he has done something that is a sin. What is it?

          • pax2u

            we are all sinners, I am are you?

          • Gary

            Stop accusing people of sinning if you cannot name the sin. That should shut you up.

          • pax2u

            are you with out sin?

          • pax2u

            Romans 3

            23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

          • James Grimes

            Haha. Paxy, you are a compulsive LIAR. Every time you post here, it makes you look like a fool. My sympathies.

          • pax2u

            I am sorry, but I do believe that you are a Christian

            If you believe that is a lie, then I apologize

          • pax2u

            I see that you have an up vote from crazy gary who wants the government to execute me. no surprise that the lunatic fringe agree, I pray to my Christian God Jesus Christ for the eternal soul of both you and gary, in Jesus name amen

          • Gary

            When pax2u is in Hell, do you suppose he will still think he is a Christian, and still pray for those of us who actually believe the Bible?

          • James Grimes

            If it is possible for a delusional person to do so, I will say “yes.”

          • pax2u

            sorry that you think that it is pathetically incoherent to say that you are a Christian, so very sad

  • Badkey

    Christians against freedom of religion? Say it ain’t so, Joe!!!

  • James Grimes

    ““Everyone’s upset about the Satanists and the atheists coming,” added board member Christine Moore.” Yup, just like on this site.

  • Gary

    God will still get the people He wants. But what is sad is that atheism is now seen by the government as being as legitimate as Christianity.

    • Paul Hiett

      Why would you think any religious belief would be more or less “legitimate” as another?

      • Gary

        Because they can’t all be true. They contradict each other. In theory, it is possible that none of them are true, but it is not possible that they are all true.

        • Paul Hiett

          Correct, but there is no possibility to determine that status. I concede that being a “Jedi” is far less legitimate than most religions, but the fact remains that all “real” religions have as little of a chance of being right as another, and no single religion can claim legitimacy over another. Ergo, why we need separation of church and state.

          • Gary

            That is not true. That is your opinion. And, separation of church and state is not in the Constitution. When people bring it up it is usually an attempt to keep religious views they dislike from being considered by people who work for the government. Nobody leaves their religion home when they go to work. All of us live by what we really believe, even at work. Federal judges don’t leave their religion out of their decisions. Lawmakers don’t either.

          • Paul Hiett

            It’s a fact that no one can prove the legitimacy of one religion vs another. If that were possible, we’d have only one religion in the world. Instead, we have over 4200 that we know of.

            Furthermore, here in America, we are made up of many religions. Discrimination based on religious beliefs is illegal, and for a good reason. No one should be given preferential treatment, or denied the same services based on what they believe.

            No one says you can’t believe what you want, and I fully support that. What I don’t support is when that belief spills over into the workplace, into our public schools and government facilities. We all deserve the same treatment, regardless of our religious beliefs, do we not?

          • Gary

            People disagree on what is true. But that does not mean the truth does not exist.
            Right now, you are more or less free to believe whatever you want.

          • Paul Hiett

            The right to believe what I want, or not believe, should never be stripped from anyone.

            Yes, everyone disagrees on the truth, despite the fact that it can never be proven. The best course of action then, is to remove religion from our public schools and government, is it not?

          • pax2u

            check out crazy gary’s comment,

            “Right now, you are more or less free to believe whatever you want.”

            is that until he has the ability to execute those who he disagrees with and hates?

          • Douglas

            There’s no reason to stir up trouble. Please don’t comment if you have nothing productive to add to the conversation.

          • Gary

            He never has anything productive to add to the conversation.

          • pax2u

            do you approve of Gary wanting to have me executed?

          • pax2u

            I pray for those who want the Government to execute homosexuals, some Catholics, and me, do you agree or disagree?

          • James Grimes

            Productive? Never in his lifetime.

          • Gary

            The government can’t control what we believe. Unless they drug us.

            Truth can be proven.

            You cannot remove religion from anywhere there are people. All of us live according to what we believe to be true, all the time. Even at work or school. The government can stop religious literature from being provided by outside people.

          • Paul Hiett

            You can’t claim that your version of your religion is “truth” if you can’t prove it…just as I can’t prove that my religious belief is correct. No one can, in that regard.

            So, if no one can prove or disprove religion, then it should not be something that our lives are ruled by, at least not from a legal perspective.

            I’m not trying to remove religion, I’m trying to remove it from our public schools and government offices. Your beliefs are yours, and mine are mine, and neither of us should be allowed to force the other to change our beliefs.

            I can’t imagine that you would tolerate kneeling to the east 5 times a day, just as I won’t tolerate being forced to tithe to a church. That being the case, shouldn’t we agree that religion remain in homes and churches?

          • Gary

            I can’t force you to believe anything, and you cannot force me. But you can’t keep religion out of anywhere. Don’t you believe the same things wherever you are? And don’t your beliefs affect what you do?

          • Paul Hiett

            Humor me…should Sharia law be enacted here in the US (I know, purely hypothetical), but would you surrender to that law, or continue to fight against it?

          • Gary

            I would fight it.

          • Paul Hiett

            Then do you now understand why non-Christians don’t want religion to dictate our lives…why we don’t want propaganda handed out in public schools, or seeing the Ten Commandments in our court rooms?

          • Gary

            Of course you don’t want God telling you what to do. That is why you are not Christians. But the laws HAVE to be based on some standard of morality. That is unavoidable. You prefer that it be your standard, which would allow you to do as you please, while restricting others from doing as they please, if what they please interfered with your doing as you please.

          • Paul Hiett

            Morality is determined by the societies in which we live, and always have been. Morality shifts, as well. I can’t imagine you would agree that stoning a woman for adultery is morally acceptable…yet in certain parts of the world it is. Eating pork is not considered a moral act in some parts, yet here no one would associate that with immorality.

            To be clear though, it’s not “God” telling me what to do…it’s a certain group of people adhering to a certain interpretation of a certain religion. By your own admission, you wouldn’t succumb to Islamic law, so to be fair you should not expect others to adhere to the laws specifically associated with your religion.

            I think we’re close, in America…most of our laws are religion free, and they should stay that way. Unfortunately, we also see what happens when those we entrust to uphold the law let their religious beliefs take precedent. Alabama is a clear example of this.

            No one should submit to a religion they do not agree with…nor should the religious be forced to hide their beliefs. I think we can find that happy medium, in which our laws are as unbiased as can be, and everyone is allowed to believe what they want, worship as they wish, and never feel persecuted for such.

          • Gary

            The kind of society you want is impossible. It has never existed anywhere, and can never exist. There is no such thing as moral neutrality. Every law is based on someone’s belief of what is right or wrong.
            Morality is determined by God. I know you think it is determined by people, but it cannot be. People can have their opinions, and make civil laws based on those opinions, but only God has the authority to define good and evil. And if there is no God, then good and evil are nothing but opinions and do not really exist.

          • Paul Hiett

            You argue from a narrow minded point of view…and I mean that not in an insulting way. You only consider life as a Christian, and think that all should submit to that kind of world.

            There are many followers of many religions all with varying rules and laws that govern each. You would not accept life under Sharia law, but somehow expect the rest of us to submit to laws defined by your Christian faith. That cannot be, nor will it allowed to be.

            Morality IS determined by the people…even in those places where religion is law. All religious texts are written by men, of that we agree upon. Whether or not those men were guided by divinity is open for debate. Regardless, morality shifts from generation to generation, and from culture to culture. The Old Testament, and in particular Leviticus, are proof of that. I would imagine not even you adhere to the laws of Leviticus, or at least not those you disagree with.’

            I also believe that good and evil are merely definitions to things we don’t like, or do like, depending on which word you’re discussing. I think it evil to hang a gay man for simply being gay…Muslims clearly do not. I would like to think you agree, which then proves that our morality, while shared, clearly does not come from the same place, does it?

          • Gary

            How would you prove that hanging a homosexual is evil?

          • Paul Hiett

            In a Muslim country it is not. I, and most atheists I know, do not agree that hanging someone for their sexual orientation is tolerable by any stretch of the imagination, and as such renders that man innocent. Killing an innocent human being is something I will always consider ‘evil’.

            I would hope you would as well.

          • Gary

            Your opinion is that hanging a homosexual is evil. So what? That is not proof you are right. Why do you have the authority to decide that hanging a homosexual is evil? Even for yourself, much less for anyone else?

          • Paul Hiett

            Because, Gary, the society in which I grew up in taught me that killing someone who is innocent is considered “evil”.

          • Gary

            That is just the opinion of a group. So what? I am not impressed. The group has no more authority to define evil than do you.

          • Rose

            If I may interject simply because this conversation interests me, I would like to ask where you think morality started at in the first place. What you say is true, about how morality is determined by society, but when did we learn morality and how did it first start?

            In my eyes, it started from the bible, and spreading the gospel back in biblical times. Because, when you think about it, the bible was the one book people from that time learned about things like how we should live, and how we should handle situations. It was literally a manual for a human being. Even if you are an atheist and you have an idea of what’s right and wrong, that all came from those ancestral times. And as for your argument about stoning a woman, you’re right, that isn’t moral, but I just hope that you don’t think that punishments like that excite God in any sort.

            Though I have to say, I do agree with your statement wholeheartedly in terms of submitting to a religion that someone doesn’t agree with. You’re right, and we can find a happy medium. Though as much as I wish it were so, I hardly believe that people will stop persecuting atheists and Christians alike. It’s true that we should coexist, but there’s just some people on both sides that are just too aggressive with their beliefs.

          • Lisa

            Do you think sharia law should be enacted? I don’t, but that isn’t because I’m a Christian it’s because I am a woman. I do not want to be a non human wearing a burka, slave to my husband, beaten whenever he is unhappy with me. That doesn’t seem good to me.
            Why is it that you dislike the Ten Commandments?

          • Paul Hiett

            You’re missing the point, Lisa. You wouldn’t want Sharia law enacted here, so why do you think I, or anyone who doesn’t follow your brand of religion, should have to endure laws based on your faith?

          • Lisa

            People have to endure laws they don’t like all the time, what are the laws you’re talking about that you don’t like that’s based off of the Christian faith?

          • Douglas

            Read Isaiah chapter 53. No other religion can come close to what Christianity provides. Not one other religious leader has ever been resurrected. I know you don’t care and are just looking for debate but it’s true.

          • Paul Hiett

            If you think Jesus is the only religious character ever resurrected, I don’t think you know your religious history all that well. Furthermore, the Bible is the claim, not the proof.

          • Gary

            The proof is those who saw him, and talked with him, after his resurrection. We have to decide whether we believe what they said.

          • Paul Hiett

            Keep in mind that the Bible was not written by anyone who actually knew Jesus, it’s all second hand.

          • Gary

            That is not true. You think lots of things are true that are false.

          • Gary

            The laws are based on someone’s religious beliefs. That is unavoidable.

          • Paul Hiett

            Our laws are certainly derived from history, of which various religions have been a part of. That being said, Christianity does not have a monopoly on law. Don’t kill, don’t steal, etc have been a staple of societies laws around the world for eons. Christianity did not create them, but merely adapted them.

          • Gary

            Those moral laws originated with God. Non Jewish societies adopted them. If Christianity was the main influence on lawmakers and judges, ssm would not be legal anywhere. Several other laws would be different as well.

          • Ayame

            In the subject of personal beliefs there is no one ‘truth’. People fight over it because they don’t get it. If I say I like peaches, that is my truth. If you say you like apples, that is your truth. To argue over which is better would be pointless.

          • James Grimes

            Gary, The Incoherent One is criticizing you again with his gibberish.

          • Spoob

            Thanks for the play by play, Grimy. Gary can read things for himself, he doesn’t need a tattletale.

          • The Last Trump

            Ditto.

          • Spoob

            Not liking your own medicine then?

          • Badkey

            Hi Gary! Still daydreaming of killing folks in the name of god?

    • tyler

      atheism is as legitimate as christianity.

      • Gary

        I disagree.

      • Douglas

        Then why did you choose atheism over Christianity?

        • Paul Hiett

          For many, it just makes sense. In fact, the more one studies religion, the more difficult it becomes to remain in one’s faith. Well, that’s my personal experience, mind you, I expect you have a different viewpoint on that.

          When I realized that ones religion is more of a product of demographics and heritage, the less I accepted my upbringing as truth.

          • Douglas

            I have seen you make that demographic argument in the past. I’m reading an interesting book right now about an Indian who had found Christ among India’s 330-million gods. It’s an easy read, check it out, “Jesus among other gods”. I’m reading the youth edition which suits me just fine, I don’t know how it differs from the other one. That’s why Christians work so hard to reach out and share our message with others around the world. We want to bring truth and salvation to those who are without. I know it sounds cocky from an unbelievers perspective but we honestly see the truth in His word and if you seek it honestly, I know you will see it too. Check out the book sometime.

          • Paul Hiett

            I accept that there are those that buck the system and wind up in faiths different than their family. Usually, it’s from “various religion” to “atheist”, but there are those who go from Muslim to Christian to Judaism to Hinduism, etc. It most certainly happens.

            That said, the majority of people do follow in the faithsteps (hah, I made a new word!) of their family before them.

            As for reading the book, I will be honest and tell you I won’t. I’ve read the Bible, among other books of faith…growing up with two pastors in the family, I assure you I have heard the “message” countless of times.

          • Douglas

            The book is really not about bucking the system. He is honest and clear that he was exposed to Christianity early on in his life. There’s just a lot of really good stuff in there. It’s not why he chose Christianity, it’s why he stays with Christianity. Don’t judge a book by its cover.

            You are hardening your heart from hearing the truth. You should never give up on the pursuit of truth and knowledge. Atheism has grown into a religion of its own with nothing to offer you.

          • tyler

            you might want to check the definition of religion. atheism is not a religion.
            atheism isn’t as scary as many people make it out to be.
            i identify as atheist, because i am not convinced that there is a god. there is not one shred of evidence.
            i am not saying that a god does not exist. i just don’t believe god exists.

          • Crono478

            “I don’t believe god exists” is pretty much your religion you are following. Simply because you don’t believe in Him. The word, believe, explains itself.

          • tyler

            definition of religion: “the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods”

          • tyler

            a belief in something doesn’t make something a religion.
            i believe in lots of things – that doesn’t make all of those things a religion.

          • Crono478

            Right, you go after what your heart desires for. We are created to worship God. It is due to our sin nature that we refuse to worship God. To fill this void, we find whatever we could to worship, praise and glorify. Right now, you glorify atheism because it means to you that there is no thing such as God.

          • Douglas

            I am not talking about the traditional definition and use of the term atheism. After all, you believe definitions can change, eg. marriage. I said it has grown into a religion of its own, and it has.

          • tyler

            then we can agree to disagree.

        • tyler

          because not only am i not convinced that there is a God, I’m also not convinced of many things in the bible, including that Jesus was divine, born of a virgin, the son of god, that god spoke through him, etc..
          there were many other people exactly like jesus during that time that professed to being ‘the annointed one’, which was in direct violation of roman rule. all of them were crucified – because that was the punishment for doing so. I don’t think that jesus was as special or unique as people make him out to be.

          • Gary

            How many of them came out of their graves?

          • tyler

            Lazarus rose from the dead. and thousands of other rose from their graves on easter. it’s all in the bible.
            the bible makes it sound like a trivial thing for people to rise out of their graves and walk around.

          • Douglas

            Even the Quran teaches that Jesus was born of a virgin birth. Let me just say that if you look at the real who, what, when, where, and why of the Bible, it is awesome.

            It sounds like you have done a lot of research of why the Bible is false, instead of searching for why it is true. Don’t be lead by misinformation.

          • tyler

            Yes, I’m familiar with that. I don’t believe either the bible or the Quran. I think the miraculous stuff is silly – there’s no possible way to back it up. And in the big picture – even if the miracles of virgin birth (which could technically be scientifically possible), raising from the dead, turning water into wine, etc.. that doesn’t demonstrate or prove anything about the existence of god, or show that jesus was divine.

            the bigger question is why there has never been a single unexplained miracle since the stories in the bible.

          • Douglas

            To make quick, while I believe that we do some miracles around us today, we do not see them in the same way or magnitude as in the Bible is because we are in a new covenant and a new age. We do not have any new prophets today. I believe that Jesus is the final revelation.

          • Rose

            http://www.cbn.com/700club/features/Amazing/

            There’s plenty of them. You just have to look it up.

    • tyler

      any religion, or not having a religion, or being atheist, is all legitimate.
      this is an important part about our country and freedoms.

  • Crono478

    This article should remind us that this is a spiritual war we are in. It is Devil that will do everything they can do to stop people from hearing the Good News.

    Ephesians 6:11-13

    11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,[a] against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

    • tyler

      there’s no spiritual war going on. the case this article about is strictly separation of church and state. the passing out of satanist coloring books is completely a joke. the people passing them out are not actually satanists — they are simply proving a point that if christians are able to hand out bibles in a public school setting, then any other religions should be able to pass out materials as well.
      another point from this case that they’re trying to make is that the coloring books are much less violent and scary than the bible is.

      • Crono478

        Yes, the article is about one of school districts in Florifa banning all access by all groups who wish to distribute religious materials to students only after a Satanist group distributed their coloring papers to them.

        What some of us do not realize is that Devil will do anything to stop Christians from sharing Goods News on how we can become saved from our sins. This is why we see so much aggressive attacks by many groups such as LGBT, atheists and so on against Christians who hold fast to God’s words.

        In this case, the Bible says that we are not really fighting against “flesh” which refers to people who are against us. Rather, it says that we are really fighting against “spiritual force” which is Devil. In other words, these groups are being used by Devil to achieve his means.

        • tyler

          Right, it’s cut and dried, and perfectly clear that this shouldn’t be tolerated. Religion doesn’t belong in public schools! how hard is that to understand? very many millions of religious people understand this and accept this. Next topic…

          • Crono478

            Except does it mean you disagree that there is a spiritual war going on? That is pretty much the point I made.

          • tyler

            I absolutely disagree that there is a spiritual war going on. It’s a very extremely simple concept in this country where we separate church and state. I know that more conservative christian like on this site ignore and disagree that there is this separation stated in the constitution, but it is there. this does not, however, infringe on anyone’s rights. you’re free to talk about god and religion all you want, just not in places like a public school.

          • Josey

            And there is that very big “but” as in “you can share your faith as long as it’s not in places such as a public school” and btw separation of church and state has a wide view of interpretation and doesn’t even appear in the constitution but rather in a letter Jefferson wrote.

          • tyler

            separation of state is clear and cut-and-dried in the first amendment of the constitution. i understand that the exact words ‘separation of church and state’ do not appear there, but that is what is meant, and exactly how it is interpreted today.

            It is a newer right-wing tactic to try to downplay this and say that is doesn’t exist. A good example of this is Christine O’Donnell in a debate in 2010:

            http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/06/constitutional-myth-4-the-constitution-doesnt-separate-church-and-state/240481/

        • James Grimes

          Absolutely!

        • thoughtsfromflorida

          “What some of us do not realize is that Devil will do anything to stop Christians from sharing Goods News on how we can become saved from our sins. ”

          Oh, please. Spare me the righteous indignation. Deciding not to hand our religious propaganda in schools in no way “stops Christians from sharing Good News”. There are entire TV and radio networks devoted to such things. There are churches. There are parents. There are friends.

          This hyperbolic rhetoric that Christians put forward that they are being silenced because they can’t force their views on people in every public setting they want to is both false and disingenuous.

          Get over yourselves. It’s about time you learned to share.

          • Crono478

            It’s not just the schools and government, did you read the news that homosexual couples sued floral and cake businesses for refusing to make flowers and cakes for their gay marriage. These business owners cited their faith in Jesus. They had no problems selling these to anyone including homosexual customers as long as it is not against their faith.

            Big question is, why do homosexual customers want to sue Christian businesses which is not really many. Why can’t they quit being their customers and move to a different company?

            These are private businesses too. Also, did you know that spiritual warfare do happen inside homes and churches? It is really everywhere.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “did you read the news that homosexual couples sued floral and cake businesses for refusing to make flowers and cakes for their gay marriage.”

            Yes, I have read that. The business owners broke the law. Do you feel that Christians are above the law? Do you feel they should not be accountable for breaking the law?

            “Big question is, why do homosexual customers want to sue Christian businesses which is not really many.”

            70% of US Citizens identify as being Christian. So to suggest that “is not really many” would be incorrect. Now, if you are talking about the number of business owners who think they should be able to break the law without consequence because of their religious beliefs then, yes, that is “not really many”.

            The big question is: If people know the laws that govern businesses regarding discrimination, why do they CHOOSE to open a business and CHOOSE to offer a product that they KNOW might result in their being held accountable for not providing that product to someone?

            “Why can’t they quit being their customers and move to a different company?”

            Yeah. Like the “coloreds”. Why can’t they just find a business that’s OK with dealing with black people? Or the Jews? Or the Japs? Or the interracial couples?

            “These are private businesses too.”

            If they are open to the public, they are not a private business regarding laws dealing with public accommodation. They are certainly free to become a private club where people pay membership dues and they only serve people who are members. But if they are open to the public, they are subject to laws regarding public accommodation.

          • Crono478

            “Yes, I have read that. The business owners broke the law. Do you feel that Christians are above the law? Do you feel they should not be accountable for breaking the law?”

            No, Christians are not above the law (including God’s Laws). Bible says we have to obey the laws of the lands (Romans 13:1-7). Only exception is, if the laws themselves go against God’s laws directly. Two of many examples can be seen in Acts 5:27–29 and Daniel 3:8-18.

            “70% of US Citizens identify as being Christian.” The question is, which are simply professing Christians and which are actual born again Christians? Jesus stated himself that very few people will “enter by the narrow gate” (Matthew 7:13).

            Discriminating against people based on their skin colors or their ethnicity is wrong. This is because all of us are created in God’s image. God himself does not show any partiality (Deuteronomy 10:17, Acts 10:34, Romans 2:11). Businesses would be completely dishonoring God if they discriminated against black people. This is true, it was a problem in areas where discrimination against Black people (including interracial families) were very strong. That is why laws were eventually passed to prohibit these discriminations.

            However, the key issue is, God tells us that we must not to enable anyone to sin (1 Tim 5:22). To sell cakes / flowers to the homosexual couples to be used for their marriage is directly against God’s definition of marriage to be between a man and a woman (Genesis 2:24 and Mark 10:5-9). Homosexuality is a sin according to Leviticus 18:22, Romans 1:26-27 and 1 Corinthians 6:9 . These Christians businesses refused to partake in what is sin. They had no problem doing business with them for anything but this. Because of this, they suffered dearly. That echoes the biblical examples. One of the biblical examples is, Peter and other apostles got beaten for saying the name of Jesus despite the command by a Pharisee named Gamaliel (Acts 5:40).

            “If they are open to the public, they are not a private business regarding laws dealing with public accommodation. They are certainly free to become a private club where people pay membership dues and they only serve people who are members. But if they are open to the public, they are subject to laws regarding public accommodation.”

            Suppose you own a business that is open to public and strongly support gay marriage. What if a customer comes to you and asks you to make a cake that declares that marriage is only between a man and a woman. You refuse because it is against your belief that anyone should marry anyone else as they desire. The customer proceeds to sue you for the discrimination. Do you agree with this action by the customer?

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “No, Christians are not above the law”

            Agreed. Therefore, it is not unreasonable for them to be accountable for breaking the law.

            “Only exception is, if the laws themselves go against God’s laws directly.”

            Of someone believes that they are not to act in ways which are contrary to what they have chosen to believe are God’s laws, then they should not place themselves in a position of having to do so according to the laws of the land.

            “The question is, which are simply professing Christians and which are actual born again Christians?”

            It seems that Christians are prone to declaring who is a “real” Christian and who is not. Which basically seems to boil down to: “if you share my interpretation of the Bible, then you are a “real” Christian. But if you don’t share my interpretation of the Bible, then you are not”. And, of course, each sect of Christianity believes that their interpretation is the correct one. What places you in a position of being able to determine, with certainty, who is a Christian and who is not?

            “Discriminating against people based on their skin colors or their ethnicity is wrong.”

            Why? Who is to say it is wrong for a Christian to state that it is his interpretation of the Bible that God believes that the races should not mix which is why he separated them?

            “However, the key issue is, God tells us that we must not to enable anyone to sin”

            The bible says that it is a sin to have sexual relations with someone of the same gender. Baking a cake for a couple does not enable them to have sexual relations.

            “These Christians businesses refused to partake in what is sin.”

            So tell me, did the owners of these businesses inquire of male/female couples if either had been previously divorced for reasons other than adultery, and turn them away if they had? Did they inquire regarding a bridal shower if the couple were having sexual relations at the present time, and turn them away if they were? Did they inquire, when asked to do a cake for a baby shower, if the woman was married, and refuse if she was not? Did they inquire if a couple was having a church wedding, and refuse if they were not?

            Those are all biblical sins and, based upon the premise you put forth, providing services in any of those cases would be “partaking in what is sin”. If they did not (and they did not) then their excuse of “violation of religious belief” is merely a cover for prejudice, hypocrisy, and mocks your views of the Christian belief system.

            “The customer proceeds to sue you for the discrimination. Do you agree with this action by the customer?”

            The customer is free to take whatever legal action he cares to. With that said, the customer would have no basis for a lawsuit. I would not be required to write whatever message the client wanted on the cake. I would be free to turn down including a message that I did not want to write. Nor were the bakers in your example asked to write anything on the cake. They were simply asked to provide a cake that they provide to other customers. They chose not to based upon the sexuality and gender of the customers who wanted to purchase the cake. Regardless of the basis for that refusal, refusing based upon the sexuality and gender of the customers is a violation of the law.

            As we agree, no one is above the law.

          • Crono478

            “It seems that Christians are prone to declaring who is a “real” Christian and who is not. Which basically seems to boil down to: “if you share my interpretation of the Bible, then you are a “real” Christian. But if you don’t share my interpretation of the Bible, then you are not”. And, of course, each sect of Christianity believes that their interpretation is the correct one. What places you in a position of being able to determine, with certainty, who is a Christian and who is not?”

            Now, this is a good question you asked. It should not be about “my interpretation” of Bible that I believe who are “Christians”. Rather, it should be God’s words that Holy Spirit Himself tells you. It is Him who do all work when it comes to salvation. I will show you the verses in Bible that explains that.

            Romans 10:9 – This is how one actually become a Christian
            ——————-
            “that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.”

            Romans 8:11 – This explains what happens when one becomes a Christian
            ——–
            “But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.”

            Acts 5:32 – Holy Spirit witnesses to people through Christians
            ————
            “And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

            1 John 2:19 – This is actually the definition of people who professed as Christians but were not really saved.
            ————-
            “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.”

            John 10:24-29 explains that anyone including professing Christians are not saved because they actually do not believe in Jesus.

            ==============================

            “The bible says that it is a sin to have sexual relations with someone of the same gender. Baking a cake for a couple does not enable them to have sexual relations.”

            You forgot one part of my previous reply. Here it is:

            “To sell cakes / flowers to the homosexual couples to be used for their marriage is directly against God’s definition of marriage to be between a man and a woman (Genesis 2:24 and Mark 10:5-9).”

            Marriage is a covenant according to Malachi 2:14. Also, it is to be between a man and a woman only. Baking a cake for a same-sex couple that will be married in their wedding actually means that they are condoning this sin.

            When it comes to bridal shower, wedding and so on, cake businesses will ask more questions so they can prepare and bake cake to what they exactly want for these events. This is how they are involved with each couple. Of course, these Christian businesses did ask these questions and found out. They regretfully informed these couples that they cannot do the business with them. They could have disobeyed God and provided them the cake so they can make money off it. They did have this choice. It would satisfy the law of the land. They did not because they have a fear of God.

            It does not have to be only cake/floral businesses. It really applies to any situation when it comes to many sins which is defined in Bible.

            So, are you saying that you would be content with providing a cake that does not include anything except frosting to events where people would speak against gay marriage? They would list your name of business that provide the cake at the event and explain that you would not write anything that violates your belief but would be happy to provide a cake to them.

          • Josey

            Oh please, the homosexual community goes out and looks for opportunities to trap a follower of Jesus Christ, this homosexual couple in the above mentioned case went into that bakery touting their upcoming union to the baker knowing full well that he followed Jesus and obeyed His commandments, they are following their father’s example the devil who tried to trap Jesus many times but failed. This baker stood by his convictions anyway and was not ashamed to say so, he is an example to anyone following Jesus is this fallen world we are passing through.

          • DarwinRules

            Actually the only reason the bakers discriminated was they new whom they were dealing with. Wouldn’t it be better if the baker asked all customers if they were atheist, Muslim, Hindu, or any member of any other religion or non-belief the God of Abraham considers an abomination? Seems to me that is something a good Christian would do so as not to accidentally make God angry.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “Oh please, the homosexual community goes out and looks for opportunities to trap a follower of Jesus Christ”

            Proof?

            “went into that bakery touting their upcoming union to the baker”

            Your statement is false. No mention was made. The baker asked for the names of the two people who were getting married. When two female names were given, the baker declined the business.

            “knowing full well that he followed Jesus and obeyed His commandments”

            Proof?

            “This baker stood by his convictions anyway and was not ashamed to say so, he is an example to anyone following Jesus is this fallen world we are passing through.”

            Agreed. Also an example that if you break the law you will be held accountable.

          • Walter Fletcher

            I have not heard of any lgbt person turning down work because the customer is christian, but I have heard multitudes of the reverse. The whole “gods image” thing gets me, for in the bible it says and I quote “let US make him in OUR image.” Who is the US and OUR that is being mentioned? Also at that point “they” only made adam ( oh I am sorry the adam, as that was not his name but the type of creature he was ), “eve” was not made in “their” image, the adam was.

          • Crono478

            You quoted what is actually a part of Genesis 1:26. It is a good question you asked. “Us” and “Our” in the same sentence refers to three different persons and they are one God. First is Heavenly Father. Second is the Son (He is also called the Word in John 1:1 as well). Third is Holy Spirit.

            1 John 5:7 made this clear.

            “7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.”

            —–

            No, Eve is female and is also made in Their image according to Genesis 1:27 right after Genesis 1:26 which you mentioned.

            “27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.”

          • lynn

            If you are right, please expound on why it legal for businesses to refuse service to any and all that enter without shoes or shirts.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Businesses are free to set dress codes for customers as they are free to set a variety of criteria – such as loudness, cleanliness, language, etc., There are a limited number of reasons that a business is not allowed to turn away a customer – those that are covered under civil rights and anti-discrimination legislation. Beyond those, a business is free to determine who it wants to service and who it does not.

            The decision by a customer to not where shoes or a shirt is not a covered category.

          • lynn

            Jain Monks can’ t wear shoes accordint to their religion. They are discrimated against by businesses that require shoes to enter.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Based upon the belief system of Jain Monks, it would not be an issue as they would not be patronizing businesses.

          • April Hall Wolfe

            I have gay friends who are also Christian. Do they not have the right to get their cake from a Christian bakery? Not all Christians feel the way you do.

          • Crono478

            The better question is, is it possible to be a gay Christian? This is addressed in this link:

            http://www.gotquestions.org/gay-Christian.html

          • Lance

            So i suppose you may be one of those who wonders why God let’s all these school shootings happen and why He doesn’t come down and save these children. Well now you know why. He’s no longer allowed in schools. You wanna be where your not welcomed? If you do a little research you would see that ever since prayer was taken out of schools, the moral depravity of school kids has sunk to a level never seen before.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “So i suppose you may be one of those who wonders why God let’s all these school shootings happen and why He doesn’t come down and save these children. ”

            No, I don’t wonder about that.

            “He’s no longer allowed in schools. You wanna be where your not welcomed?”

            Unlike the God you believe in, the God I believe in is not petty.

            “the moral depravity of school kids has sunk to a level never seen before.”

            How so?

          • Lance
          • thoughtsfromflorida

            You would benefit from a better understanding of the difference between relationships of concurrence and relationships of causality. You are attempting to present the former as being the latter, without any proof.

      • TheMatrixHasU

        @ tyler what is so violent and scary about the bible?
        YES the OT has violence but the age of the OT was a violent time. You cant hide people from that. The Jews, a small and often divided people of the OT were living under a different dispensation at the time where harsh measures had to be taken to preserve spiritual purity and protect them as a race.
        That was all done with by the time of the NT
        And do you even know what ‘separation of church and state’ even means? Its to prevent the state from interfering with the church (such as what happens with China) and to keep the country from turning into a theocracy. That doesn’t in any way say that Christians need to leave their beliefs at home

        • Paul Hiett

          It also means that the Church stays out of the government and public schools.

          • TheMatrixHasU

            Gov’t? Your country was founded mostly by Christians who didn’t leave their beliefs at home. Schools? No way. You cannot teach children to grow up moral young people without it

          • Tim Raynor

            But it’s not the responsibility of a public school to teach a certain brand of religion whatsoever. That responsibility is for the parents, and only for the parents. Teacher’s have no right exposing their brand of religion on my kids, that’s not their call, that’s my call as their parent. That’s why public schools cannot endorse one religion over another, and it’s the law.

          • TheMatrixHasU

            That is man’s view, not God’s

          • Tim Raynor

            No, it’s the Constitution’s view and law of the land. Sorry but the Bible does not trump the Constitution and the laws that govern our public schools.

          • TheMatrixHasU

            So God’s word comes second to man’s? Your constitution is BASED on the freedom of religion that only the bible gives you.

            Choose this day which gods you shall serve

            Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

          • Tim Raynor

            There are OTHER religions in the US that are 100% NOT based on the Bible. Many in this country have a different point of view on what god truly is to them, and their freedom to express it is their personal, individual liberty and right. What you’re missing is that first part of the First Amendment known as the “Establishment Clause”. Congress (also meaning government as the SCOTUS has defined it) shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. Thus the reason your SSM bans are unconstitutional because you’re trying to make laws based on your religious dogma. The Constitution grants equal protections and rights for all, including the gay community.

          • TheMatrixHasU

            YES it does and so does ours. And BTW I am not trying to imply making laws based on our Christian dogma. WE cant do that but Christ will when He returns
            But the problem is, the constitution of Canada or the US is increasing being twisted, perverted and abused to support the rights of other religions OVER Christianity and Christianity/Judaism is being given short shrift.
            Judeo/Christian rights are being shot to hell in favour of gay rights or the rights of other religions who are offended by Christianity.
            THAT is the problem I have with stories like the above, Christians being banned from sharing bibles even when the kids actually WANT them.

          • Tim Raynor

            And again, this IS the responsibility of the Parents, not the teachers or some outside religious organization. Religion can be a sensitive and private matter for most people, and no religion should have the right to distribute their materials to other people’s children in a public school. And no, you have no clue if the children actually want them. Would not matter in the first place because it should be the parents responsibility, not some outside source.

          • TheMatrixHasU

            “you have no clue if the kids want them”….duh, ever thought of ASKING first? That still doesn’t even address the problem of how all other religions are given rights OVER Judeo/Christianity and Judeo/Christianity’s rights are being destroyed

          • Tim Raynor

            No, they’re being kept “equal” in a public school by remaining neutral, as they should be. No kids rights are taken away when it comes to their personal choice in religion. They can pray, bring their religious books and where religious attire. You’re just playing the persecution card where there is none. The law is the law and teachers and school staff can’t lead in any religious prayer or indoctrination. Religion can be taught from a historical perspective, but not indoctrinated to the children.

          • TheMatrixHasU

            Man you are living in a dream world. I have read of increasing numbers of stories where kids are being banned from praying or bringing bibles into schools. And no I am not playing any persecution card. If you deny that Christian persecution is on the rise in Canada and the US you must be living on Mars.

          • Tim Raynor

            Christian religion outnumbers all religions in North America. Of all religions in the US, Christianity is over 70%, making them the majority religion. If they were the minority and being harassed at every turn in this country, then the persecution argument wold make sense. However, being they’re the majority religion, claiming their persecution is on the rise is utter nonsense as they are not the underdog in any way shape or form. That’s called living in reality, you should try it sometime. 😉

          • TheMatrixHasU

            We are all called to train up our children in the path of Jesus Christ. The only thing is that we cannot force our beliefs on people, because that gets us nowhere; only teach those who are willing to listen.

          • Tim Raynor

            Yes, and there are plenty of churches and many denominations of religion one can decide to learn from. It isn’t like religion is a big secret in this country, as it’s in our daily lives and everywhere you turn. Public school is not the place or environment to be indoctrinating a captive audience of children about whatever the teacher’s choice of religion is. Again, that’s a parents responsibility, not a government run school.

          • TheMatrixHasU

            And one wonders why crime on school grounds is on the increase. And its not about indoctrination either, I have already said it. Its about freedom to preach the word of God through Jesus Christ as your country’s constitution give you that freedom. That is what freedom of religion is all about. It doesn’t tell you to check your beliefs at the door.
            What if kids WANT to hear the truth? what if kids WANT a bible.
            It is people like you who are the reason why prayer in school is banned.
            Plain and simple if people don’t want to hear the truth they don’t have to listen. I am speaking for all the kids and teachers who WANT to

          • Tim Raynor

            Kids can talk religion all they want in public schools, no laws banning them from doing so. They can pray and bring whatever religious material they want, so long as it’s no disrupting learning time of course. It’s teachers and administrative staff that are off limits in indoctrinating religion. Public school staff must remain neutral with religion, and rightfully so because I wouldn’t want some teacher (stranger) teaching my kid some denomination of religion I don’t believe in. Pretty common sense concept when you think about it.

          • TheMatrixHasU

            But that isn’t always true. I have hear stories of kids being banned from praying or reading bibles anywhere on school property and the problem in increasing

          • Paul Hiett

            I think you need to read the Treaty of Tripoli. This is not, and never has been, a “Christian” nation.

          • TheMatrixHasU

            Sorry you are wrong there. How can I a non US citizen know more about your country’s history than you?

          • Ayame

            Yes, you can teach children to be good and moral adults without Christianity. You also don’t have to practice a religion to pick up things from it (good or bad)

          • Gary

            Which church? You cannot keep religion out of anywhere there are people.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Agreed. You can, however, prohibit the endorsement or promotion of religion by taxpayer-funded entities.

      • TheMatrixHasU

        I should have added too, there is very much a spiritual war going on. The bible in some says can be summed up in one line…THE EARTH IS THE BATTLEGROUND FOR MENS SOULS

      • alnga

        Pay closer attention he is quoting a very strong verse from a book you need to be familiar with. It is our call to arms in a way you still do not understand. Read the short book of Ephesians, it could change your life.

    • [email protected]

      Why does god have armor? She/he isn’t weak is she/he? Yes, it does seem that we are involved in a war. It is against the threocratic, fundamentalist Christians. I’m glad to see that a learned competent person such as yourself is a selcularist. You have to be a non-believer in the supernatural in order to believe that armor is necessary in a war in which the Christian god, who has no body, is engaged. However, I think that there are more modern books on warfare than Ephesians if you find the armor too cumbersome.

      • Crono478

        No, God is not weak. This is referring to believers to put on His armor. Are you sure you want to be on wrong side of the spiritual war?

        What makes you think that I am a secularist especially after I just shared God’s words on the spiritual war on this discussion board?

        • [email protected]

          From my point of view, a war that involves supernatural entitles and fantasy armor doesn’t really exist, since I don’t believe that such labels have any real meaning. If you feel the necessity of real armor, then you must be thinking of a tangible conflict with empirically defined armament; hence, you are a secularist. If you’re not thinking of anything real, you are imagining a universe that doesn’t exist, and are just sort of “way out there”.

          • Crono478

            This is because God’s words are foolish to you if you don’t believe in it. You don’t have any excuse to say that He does not exist because you actually have seen his invisible attributes through all of things He has created (Romans 1:20).

            No, I am not a secularist. I am a born again Christian who believes that spiritual war is real, so is Devil.

        • [email protected]

          How something supernatural that is nonexistent can bring anything into existence, is not an event for which anyone can vouch for with any evidence at all. Since no one can know that a deity or maker exists unless there is a clear trail to the empirical evidence of the deity’s existence, your deity just isn’t there, is it? Is your supernatural god to be found from reason alone? What you say is nonsensical. And, Paul, who never knew Jesus, and who may have written Romans in about 58 CE, also was not rationally presenting any convincing proof that there is a deity. The fact that there is a real universe in no way supports the notion of a deity’s reality unless there is evidence of process!

          • Crono478

            Your statements can be summarized in one sentence: You find this to be very foolish to believe something you don’t see that exists.

            You even made a claim that Paul never knew Jesus? Are you sure about this? You may want to double check on your claim.

          • [email protected]

            Paul’s vision leading to his conversion on the road to Damascus was after the death of Jesus. There is nothing in the bible about Saul ever meeting or seeing Jesus before this. Accounts of the vision vary. For example, there are three different version in Acts. Various Christian apologists have foolishly said that Saul’s (aka Paul’s) vision was witnessed by his companions. This is hardly credible since all depends on the tales of Paul. Visions have occurred to varieties of people throughout history, and are scarcely assigned any validity, except within Christian theologies. There continue to be disagreements among theologians regarding Paul’s accounts of his visions and conversion, but this makes no difference to the conclusion that Paul had never met the real Jesus, and could present no evidence of his fantastical yearns.

          • Crono478

            Paul (Saul back then) actually saw a blinding light from the heaven. Saul asked, “Lord, who are you?” and He answered him that He is Jesus. Whole thing was not a vision and it did happen to him. This led him to become saved and he became known as Paul after that.

            Here is part of Acts 9:

            “Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

            3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

            5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”

            Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.[a] It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

            6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”

            Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

            7 And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. 8 Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.”

            ——–
            “Accounts of the vision vary. For example, there are three different version in Acts. ”

            You mean three different translation? I just included four different translations – NKJV, NIV, KJV, and ESV of Acts 9:1-7 that you can compare them in this link: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%209%3A1-7&version=NKJV;NIV;KJV;ESV.

            You will see that all translations may differ slightly but it still gives same message about Saul on the road to Damascus.

            “Various Christian apologists have foolishly said that Saul’s (aka Paul’s) vision was witnessed by his companions.”

            Acts 9:7 states that companions did not see anything they did hear the voice that Saul heard.

            “There continue to be disagreements among theologians regarding Paul’s accounts of his visions and conversion,”

            Can you provide me information that supports that? Is it something that you just quickly found off Google?

          • [email protected]

            Supposed visions, in whatever many versions there are, are not proof of anything. except a desire to validate changes in perspective. Differing accounts of Paul’s conversion are referred to in many sources. They are more than just translational variances, no matter how much you might wish otherwise. Develop your own. Paul’s accounts of his conversion apparently varied with his audience. None of what you’ve said bears on establishing the existence of a deity.

          • Crono478

            Can you share your sources with me that supports your answer? That is what I have been asking you in my previous reply.

          • [email protected]

            I don’t believe you are a seeker of truth. You would just contest any argument contrary to your perspective as unworthy. I’ve a library of several thousand books in philosophy and religion, and have been reading and studying this topic over half a century. If you were really actually interested, you could find references all over the internet. We’re done!

          • Crono478

            What you are saying is absurd. You would contest every argument contrary to your perspective as unworthy as well. You claim that you have a library of several thousand books in philosophy and religion and have been a student of this topic for over half a century. What stops you from providing sources to refute my answers?

            Are you attempting to convince me to dismiss Bible because it is all fantasy to you, which causes it to have no basis in truth?

            What leads you to read thousand books in philosophy and religion? Are you seeking for truth as well? Yes, there are all references all over the Internet. However, how do you know which one is truth and which is not?

  • thoughtsfromflorida

    See how easy of a solution that was? Done and done! Everyone is being treated the same. If Christians want to give away the bible, they are free to go door-to-door. The Mormons do it – why can’t World Changes?

    ““If my client is turned away because my client is a religious organization, then I think we’ll have grounds to sue the school board based on an unconstitutional policy,” Roger Gannam of the Christian legal organization Liberty Counsel told WFTV.”

    Thus proving why Roger Gannam works at Liberty Counsel, as he is unqualified to work anywhere else in the legal profession.

  • dark477

    Fair’s, fair. you either let everyone in or no one.

  • tyler

    there will always be christian, other religions, atheists, and agnostics. make a point to talk to everyone on an equal level, as a fellow equal human being. some people may change their minds or beliefs, but all these separate groups will exist, and continue to exist. try to talk to people more who don’t believe exactly as you do.

  • Mike Boots Shaw

    The news report video elaborates on the issue…

    After reading the article, I was a bit miffed over the attack on the Christian faith; especially taking into consideration, there is another county in Florida where an educator instructing children from the Koran–where is the outcry of the FFRF in this matter?!?

    I am in support of the board of education; no religious/anti-religious or political material should be distributed within the educational institution. Here is why…

    1. There is a time and place for everything; an hour, and a season–while children are in school, that time is for education.

    2. The consent of ALL parents, regardless of race, creed, color, background, political, and/or religious preferences, etc.; that should be sought and obtained, prior to the distribution of any such material–including items from my own Christian perspective.

    3. Schools are supposed to be safe-havens for our children. Children are stressed enough with their studies of basic educational subjects; English, Literature, Math, Sciences, History, etc. Introducing materials that are not relevant to the educational learning environment is a distraction to the children–to whom the board of education is ultimately responsible to educate.

    4. If the FFRF is truly interested in separating church and state, then what’s the point of them being in cahoots with the Satanic Church of NY? Obviously, the FFRF is only interested in creating arguments and problems; as opposed to doing their job of solving these issues.

    I look forward to hearing the responses of my Sibling-Saints on this post. My hope is that they will read the article clearly, observe the video, and pray…

    Good Day, and God Bless!!!

    • thoughtsfromflorida

      “I was a bit miffed over the attack on the Christian faith”

      How is not passing out bibles an “attack on the Christian faith”?

      “there is another county in Florida where an educator instructing children from the Koran”

      Would you be good enough to provide further information on this? If they are teaching from the Koran for purposes of religious indoctrination, then I will be most clear in my statements against such action.

      • Mike Boots Shaw
        • thoughtsfromflorida

          It’s a history class. I have no more problem with them teaching world history and referencing the Koran and its impact on history than I do referencing the Bible regarding history.

          To suggest that using religious texts in the context of teaching about history is “instructing children from the Koran” is disingenuous.

          • Mike Boots Shaw

            Was the teacher at Lymann simply referencing the Koran, as you are stating; or, is there more? Since you didn’t read the entire article, allow me to share this little snippet:

            “Students were instructed to recite this prayer as the first Pillar of Islam, off of the board at the teacher’s instruction,” Mr. Wagner said. “For it to be mandatory and part of the curriculum and in the textbooks, didn’t seem right.”

            The children must recite a prayer from the Koran?!? Am I reading this wrong? Does the prayer come from the Koran?

            There was nothing deceitful or dishonest regarding my comment, as it is relevant to this topic; mostly due to the fact it is happening in the Seminole County District.

            Am I suggesting the Lord’s Prayer be recited as well; a tit-for-tat scenario? Absolutely not!

            You are obviously extrapolating the bits and pieces of you need to support your personal views, only to create an argument that doesn’t fit.

            This isn’t about the Atheists, Satanists, and Islamists coming against my Christian faith; this is about what is right, and just. It is about what belongs in public schools; and what does not.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            I did read the entire article. The meaning of reciting text from the Koran would depend on the context.

            Regarding my personal views, I am with you regarding the public schools not being the proper place for religious indoctrination. With that said, religious belief, and the actions taken based upon it, play an important role in world history. In that regard, I do believe that the inclusion of religion in that aspect does belong in schools.

          • Mike Boots Shaw

            And in what context would it be okay for children to be required to perform acts such as:
            “Students were instructed to recite this prayer as the first Pillar of Islam, off of the board at the teacher’s instruction,”

            In what context would it be proper for school children to be required to recite the Lord’s Prayer, the Satanic Church faith statement, or any other faith across the spectrum.

            If you agreed with my first post, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. You seem well educated; you couldn’t get the correlation I made that the FFRF was busting chops in Orange County, but not in Seminole; as the applications are the nearly the same, only regarding opposing faiths?

            My friend, sweet water and bitter water can’t come from the same well. Let your yes be yes, and your no be no.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            The Washington Times is not a publication that be counted on for providing complete information.

            Let’s start with the first sentence of the article:

            “….said his son’s world history book has gone too far with a lesson that teaches Muhammad is the messenger of God.”

            The word “the” would indicate that what is being taught is that Muhammad is singularly the messenger of God. There is no evidence to support this.

            “Students were instructed to recite this prayer as the first Pillar of Islam, off of the board at the teacher’s instruction,”

            A claim by the father for which there is no proof.

            “For it to be mandatory and part of the curriculum and in the textbooks, didn’t seem right.”

            There is nothing to support his statement that reciting the prayer is a mandatory part of the curriculum. Further, the context in which that activity was done is an important consideration in determining the purpose.

            “The school also said that the “Pillars of Islam are benchmarks in the state curriculum” and must be taught.”

            The “pillars of Islam” is not paramount to teaching that “Muhammad is THE messenger of God”.

            ” as the applications are the nearly the same, only regarding opposing faiths”

            Handing out religious texts outside of the classroom and in no context of education is not even close to being “nearly the same” as using a text in a history class that is relevant to world history.

            “Let your yes be yes, and your no be no.”

            I am not so myopic as to suggest that everything is so black and white.

          • Mike Boots Shaw

            You have lost the scope of my initial comment…for sounding so articulate and educated, you aren’t too smart.

            I’m not here to bash your faith; you are obviously sympathetic and sensitive to the Islamic faith. You keep trying to morph this conversation into something it is not; an attack against your faith–and retaliating against me, as I am public enemy number one.

            Just try and get your thoughts wrapped around the foundation of what I posted, and do your best to get back on track.

            You want to defend your faith; go for it. Make a post under the main thread, and let people come at you. Responding to this thread, and attempting to manipulate the conversation into what you want to talk about, is rude and irrelevant.

            The bottom line, my position is “I AM WITH THE BOARD OF EDUCATION TO KEEP ALL PROPAGANDA RELATING TO RELIGIOUS/NON-RELIGIOUS, POLITICAL, ETC. OUT OF THE SCHOOLS!”

            Perhaps that might be clear enough for you, professor.

            I’ve not engaged in your folly, professor; though you keep trying me. I fully expect more of your foolishness; despite the elegance and vocabulary, is foolishness none the less.

            A fool and his folly are not easily parted…

            I’ll be standing-by, waiting for another argument that has no relation to my original post.

            Please, professor, take the last word; we all can’t wait to see how much further you can get from the original message……..

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “I’m not here to bash your faith”

            I’m not Muslim.

            “retaliating against me, as I am public enemy number one.”

            In what way am I “retaliating” against you?

            “Responding to this thread, and attempting to manipulate the conversation into what you want to talk about, is rude and irrelevant.”

            The only thing I have talked about is the issue in the story and the link you provided. I have provided information that shows that the information in the article that you provided the link to is misleading. You are certainly free to view that as being “rude and irrelevant” if you care to, although I am curious as to why you view it that way.

            “I AM WITH THE BOARD OF EDUCATION TO KEEP ALL PROPAGANDA RELATING TO RELIGIOUS/NON-RELIGIOUS, POLITICAL, ETC. OUT OF THE SCHOOLS!””

            A point with which I agreed.

            “despite the elegance and vocabulary, is foolishness none the less.”

            How so?

            “we all can’t wait to see how much further you can get from the original message……..”

            YOU were the one who originally posited: “I was a bit miffed over the attack on the Christian faith”. In addition, YOU were the one who said: “there is another county in Florida where an educator instructing children from the Koran”

            Our discussion since has been based upon YOUR statements. Therefore, to suggest that I have been the one that has taken the conversation away from the original message is false.

  • Mike Boots Shaw

    The news report video elaborates on the issue…

    After reading the article, I was a bit miffed over the attack on the Christian faith; especially taking into consideration, there is another county in Florida where an educator instructing children from the Koran–where is the outcry of the FFRF in this matter?!?

    I am in support of the board of education; no religious/anti-religious or political material should be distributed within the educational institution. Here is why…

    1. There is a time and place for everything; an hour, and a season–while children are in school, that time is for education.

    2. The consent of ALL parents, regardless of race, creed, color, background, political, and/or religious preferences, etc.; that should be sought and obtained, prior to the distribution of any such material–including items from my own Christian perspective.

    3. Schools are supposed to be safe-havens for our children. Children are stressed enough with their studies of basic educational subjects; English, Literature, Math, Sciences, History, etc. Introducing materials that are not relevant to the educational learning environment is a distraction to the children–to whom the board of education is ultimately responsible to educate.

    4. If the FFRF is truly interested in separating church and state, then what’s the point of them being in cahoots with the Satanic Church of NY? Obviously, the FFRF is only interested in creating arguments and problems; as opposed to doing their job of solving these issues.

    I look forward to hearing the responses of my Sibling-Saints on this post. My hope is that they will read the article clearly, observe the video, and pray…

    Good Day, and God Bless!!!

  • Walter Fletcher

    If you allow one religion, you must allow all.

    • Greg Pearson

      I would recommend putting your account on private by going to edit profile. Your comments are better protected.

  • M Diaz

    the days of your entitlements are over christians…more churches today are closing because of foreclosures as more and more ppl are seeing what christianity really is, an appeal to arrogance..but if you really are true christians…before responding, read matthew 5:10-11 and suck it up like a good christian should, otherwise you’re a hypocrite for standing up for belief system…meek and humble requires you to be silent and patient and trust in your god that give you peace beyond understanding, eh?

    oh that anger you are feeling, that sense of hostility welling up inside you is a sign of your weak weak faith, pssssst that is a good thing, question everything even authority, you don’t want to be gullible now do you?