Christians Disappointed as Indiana Governor Signs Clarification to Religious Freedom Act

PenceINDIANAPOLIS, Ind. — Christians are expressing disappointment after Indiana Gov. Mike Pence signed a clarification to the state’s Religious Freedom Restoration Act on Thursday that prohibits businesses from declining services relating to homosexual ceremonies.

As previously reported, last week, Gov. Mike Pence signed SB 101 into law in a closed ceremony, with an estimated 70 t0 80 invited guests attending the event. The bill was meant to mirror the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act, which was signed into law in the 1990’s by then-President Bill Clinton.

“A governmental entity may substantially burden a person’s exercise of religion only if the governmental entity demonstrates that application of the burden to the person: (1) is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest; and (2) is the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest,” it reads.

After signing the legislation, Pence cited the Supreme Court’s decision in the Hobby Lobby abortion pill case, and noted that while a federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act exists, the law does not cover state action.

“Last year, the Supreme Court of the United States upheld religious liberty in the Hobby Lobby case based on the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act, but that act does not apply to individual states or local government action,” he said. “In order to ensure that religious liberty is fully protected under Indiana law, this year our General Assembly joined those states [who have passed local legislation] and the federal government to enshrine these principles in Indiana law, and I fully support that action.”

However, homosexual activists and advocates soon rose up against Pence, asserting that the bill made provision for Christians and others to discriminate against homosexuals. Hundreds rallied outside of the Indiana state house last Saturday in opposition to the law, and op-eds quickly were published online decrying the Act as being bigoted. Washington Gov. Jay Inslee (D) even announced that he was banning state-funded travel to Indiana, as did Connecticut Gov. Dan Malloy (D) and New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D).

While Pence said that the bill had been “grossly misconstrued” by homosexual activists and the media and made to be an issue about homosexuality rather than a response to the Hobby Lobby decision, he said that the “mischaracterization” now “might make it necessary … to clarify the law through legislation.”

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Therefore, lawmakers proposed a clarification to the bill that prohibits business owners from declining to fulfill orders pertaining to the homosexual lifestyle.

“This chapter does not: authorize a provider to refuse to offer services, facilities or use of public accommodations, employment or housing to any member or members of the general public on the basis of sex, color, religion, ancestry, age, national origin, disability, sexual orientation, gender identity, or United States military service,” it reads.

The legislation also states that it does not “establish a defense to a civil action or criminal prosecution for refusal by a provider” to oblige the request, removing protections from Christians in court. While the bill exempts churches and non-profit religious organizations from the law, it does not do so for business owners of faith.

On Thursday, the Indiana House approved the RFRA clarification by a vote of 66-30, and the Senate likewise passed the amendment 34-16. The addition then went to Pence, who signed the language into law.

“I am grateful for the efforts of legislators, business and other community leaders who came together to forge this clarifying language in the law,” he said. “In the midst of this furious debate, I have prayed earnestly for wisdom and compassion, and I have felt the prayers of people across this state and across this nation. For that I will be forever grateful.”

Pence also stated that he supported the added language since it provided protections for churches and religious organizations, as well as “groups of individuals and businesses in conscience decisions that do not involve provision of goods and services, employment and housing.”

But some Christian groups disagree that the amendment was needed in the first place, and are expressing their disappointment in both the Indiana legislature and Gov. Pence, who is a professing Christian.

“This proposal would force religious businesses and even nonprofits deemed ‘not religious enough’ to participate in wedding ceremonies contrary to their owners’ beliefs,” said Tony Perkins of Family Research Council Thursday prior to the vote. “If the government punishes people for living their faith, there are no limits to what government can control.”

“Christian bakers, florists and photographers … no longer have the benefit of Indiana law to help protect them from being forced by the government to participate in a homosexual wedding,” also lamented Eric Miller, founder and executive director of Advance America.

Some Christians view serving as a photographer or florist for a same-sex ceremony as a type of participation in the event, thus violating 1 Timothy 5:22, which forbids followers of Christ from being a “partaker in other men’s sins.”

The Christian legal group Alliance Defending Freedom said that the added language to the law “unjustly deprives citizens their day in court, denies freedom a fair hearing, and rigs the system in advance.”

“It gives the government a new weapon against individual citizens who are merely exercising freedoms that Americans were guaranteed from the founding of this country,” said Senior Counsel Kristen Waggoner. “Surrendering to deception and economic blackmail never results in good policy.”

“If a Christian vendor can be forced to collaborate with an unmitigated evil, like assisting with a homosexual marriage, then the law and religious freedom has no meaning,” Red State commented. “In Burwell v. Hobby Lobby, the Supreme Court acknowledged that even a closely held corporation cannot be compelled to violate its religious beliefs. Why private citizens should not have the same rights, and be able to enforce those rights when harassed and bullied … is a mystery.”

A Rasmussen poll released on Tuesday finds that 70% of Americans “agree that a Christian wedding photographer who has deeply held religious beliefs opposing same-sex marriage has the right to turn down working a job at such a wedding.” A WPA opinion research poll also found that “government should leave people free to follow their beliefs about marriage as they live their daily lives at work and in the way they run their businesses.”

“The Indiana controversy reveals what we have known about the homosexual lobby. Homosexual advocates have no tolerance for religious freedom,” said Mat Staver of Liberty Council. “This is a zero sum game with a winner and a loser, and the homosexual lobby has no room for religious freedom or people of conscience who disagree.”


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  • Mary Waterton

    It puts Christians in a worse position than if the law had never been passed at all.

    Un-elect Pence in 2016. Simply skip over his name on the ballot.

    • LeftleaningTx

      Well it certainly puts them in the true light of their intent of discriminating against gay people,

      • Waycool Jr

        Open your eyes. It is not about “who” we serve, it is about what we are asked to take part in. Christians happily serve gays every day. We just need the right to abstain from engaging in approval of or taking part in your lifestyle choice by providing services specific to celebrating it as normal and right. Feel free to turn me away if I ever ask you to bake a cake celebrating the Muslims who want you killed for being gay, let alone Christians who just believe God will hold you accountable for it in the end.

        Ever notice gay activists do not protest Muslim-owned businesses, the religion that believes they have no right to live? Gay activists are proof that Jesus is the one Satan fears or they would attack Islam much more vehemently than Christianity. It is not about protecting gays, it is about attacking Christians.

        • LeftleaningTx

          Unfortunately the LAW does not see it that way.

          This specific kind of discrimination is covered under the Civil Rights Act of 1964 specifically under “accommodations” which clearly states that if you are open to the public you must serve all of the public regardless of your personal (or religious) feelings.

          This is long settled law which give zero wiggle room to the points that you are making which still, no matter what you call it, amount to discrimination.

          Your Satan bullshite just make you look like a cult text worshiper and does not exclude you from the law either.

          Deny services to gay FOR ANY REASON and you will get sued and YOU WILL lose.

          Christians are their own worst enemies that have created this self inflicted wound by bullying other groups for decades.

          You have lost the battle for gay right and this law was nothing more than a preemptive strike to protect yourself against the discrimination you seek to employ.

          You’ll have lost the war not only legally but with the resounding protest from society it it clear that you’l have lost it socially as well.

          You do not have to serve gay people if you don’t want to but if you are open for business you have a choice:
          A) Serve all people including gay people
          OR
          B) Close the doors of your business

          That is the choice and there are NO protection for you if you violate the law

          PERIOD THE END.

          It has been for hundreds of years, and continues to be, the providence of government to bestow the legal vestige of a “business” upon individuals. No person(s) has the right to confer the legal status of a business upon themselves; only government and its associated laws can establish a business entity. When an individual or a group of individuals solicit government to obtain government’s permission to operate a business, apply for a business license, they agree to operate the business in accordance with the laws of government. Thus individuals preclude themselves from exerting individual right because they have consented to the laws of government

        • Phipps Mike

          ” taking part in your lifestyle choice”
          I dont see anybody asking bakers to partake in homosexual acts aka (lifestyle choice)

          • Waycool Jr

            Not what I meant, but you knew that.

  • Melissa Simpson

    God, we pray for strength to uphold our faith and Your will, even when others are not. Amen.

    • LeftleaningTx

      And God we pray that your Christian children will see the light and stop judging other and to LOVE EVERYONE as you would have us all do

      • Melissa Simpson

        Love is helping people follow Jesus and God and helping them get to Heaven. We do this by now supporting sin, homosexuality is a sin, so not supporting that is love. I pray you see the truth the way our Father God wants you to. If you loved someone and did not support their wedding in an abusive relationship out of love, it is the same thing. God is our creator, His rules, if you do not believe what He says about homosexuality, you do not believe in Him. If that is the case, you need prayer and I will pray for you. God knows the truth, we know the truth of Jesus.

        • LeftleaningTx

          While I can appreciate what you’re saying from your selected interpretation of your stone age cult text, i do not subscribe.
          I personally am an atheist but if i were ever to follow any religious cult it most certainly would be one that is inclusive of all people and not one that sits in judgements of others.
          I do pity how the selective use of your cult text limits you and the people that follow your specific cult but please keep your perverted notion of love and spread it elsewhere as it comes with far to many strings.

          • Melissa Simpson

            The text is modern, it was made my years ago to help people throughout time. Call it a cult or whatever word you want, it is truth and your condescending writing shows you are not happy inside. Homosexuality is a sin, just like other sins, and I will tell you believing in Jesus, repenting of sins and being baptised will give you peace, joy and truth. God loves you as He loves all who have sinned, which is very one but Jesus. Think or right what you want, even sin but the truth of Jesus and repenting and following the word of God is the only way to Heaven. Everyone will die, not everyone will live with peace after death. Do it now while you can. Eternity is a long time of course. Jesus gives peace on earth and peace after death if You follow Him the way God tells us to. God will judge us all. I pray you see the truth and love of Jesus and God.

          • LeftleaningTx

            Interesting that a series of stories there were written hundred of years after they happened then translated in the various languages has become such a cult phenomena!.
            That is actually a fact regarding the cult text and not condescending however i can understand where a cult follower might see it that way from a defensive point of view.
            What i find interesting about the cult is the hypocrisy and selective use of the text where its followers ignore the laws that they break requiring stoning to death and then judge other that the are not guilty of. For instance, you find a homosexual wedding an activity that is untenable yet you cult member will easy service a persons 2nd wedding. This could give you examples as long as your arm and interesting you would have some defense one way or anohter for not enfoucng those “abominations” yes selectively choose other that are in such deep need of enforcement that they require law even in todays time !!
            I have, of course no interest in your specific cult however if i did I would choose one that had much less hypocrisy involved and more tenable people to share my time with.
            I fear the great thing that YOU have to worry about is how your God will judge YOU for holding judgements that you so easily allow yourself to live.
            The last few days certainly have shown why your cult is so despised and if there’s any good news it that America has woken up the horseshit that you preach.
            So do us all a favor and practice your cult beliefs behind the cult church walls were they belong and SHUT YOUR MOUTH when you are in the pubic square around decent people.
            I would think that the last several day have show you that is what America wants.

          • Melissa Simpson

            I feel sorry for you, the way you talk to people shows who you are. It is simple and I will leave it at this. Believe in Jesus as the Son of God, repent for your sins and be baptised and follow Jesus and God. Do this and have joy, love and light: this I pray for you and all who want to go to Heaven and love God. God and Jesus love us all, I pray you see this truth.

          • LeftleaningTx

            Save your pity for yourself as you need it much more than i do. You have been stricken with the disease of cult worship that holds you hostage through it ancient stone text. If what you and yours have you consider joy they you have a warped sense of what joy is, i hope for you that you see the sins of your ways but even if you don’t at least leave the rest of the non cult worshippers alone that they may have happiness in a judgement free world. It is never to late to escape the cult and I can only hope that your children were not indoctrinated at to early an age to escape. Fortunately many children today see the ravages of cult worship in their parents and refuse to have anything to do with it. I hope that your children were fortunate enough to escape since apparently you will perish within the cult.
            It is never to late to escape the cult and i hope that you can find your way out one day.

          • David Anderson

            I urge you to repent and turn to God while you have the chance. Atheists in Hell right now WISH they could have had a second chance. For everyone they convert to atheism, their torment is even greater. You don’t want any part in Hell. It was not created for humans to live in. It was created for Satan and his fallen angels. If you think that you will just *POOF* not exist upon death, YOU ARE SORELY MISTAKEN! Turn and repent before God while you still have breath in your lungs and a beat in your heart. An atheists deathbed is a beyond a second chance. For those who say, “I will get right with God” and wait until the 11th hour, die at the 10th. God is not against you, he is for you, but you must be willing to humble yourself and come to him. Jesus IS love.

        • LeftleaningTx

          Love is letting everyone follow their own path without shoving your beliefs down everyone else’s throats.
          If you and every other religion would follow that one small bit of advice the world would be a MUCH better place and there would be less wars and killings in the name of god.
          Keep YOUR version of god to yourself and keep your big bigoted mouth shut when you are in the public square around decent people.
          The time for religious bigotry has finally ended and the results of the religious reich being slapped back in Indiana IS the proof.
          Now SHUT UP and go away cause i am not interest in your version of god BULLSHIT.

          • Jim Deferio

            You are one hateful, vitriolic, irrational sexual pervert. Stop shoving your cult religion of homosexualism down every ones throat.

          • LeftleaningTx

            And with all of your studies and cult worship and beliefs you finally reduce yourself to what you really are, a hateful, name calling, judgemental, bigot.

            Hypocrites like you are why Christians have become despised. and all through your own self inflicted wounds.

            Oh and make NO mistake, we’re going to shove our Conditionally protect rights down your throats and FORCE you to serve us. We have the law on our side, you have NO choice but to capitulate or we will run you out of business.

          • Jim Deferio

            No you won’t, pervert. Besides all of your diseases there is more trouble coming your way.
            IQ of over 160? What a joke. There is no way you can rationally defend your perverted practices.
            If you think all Christians are pacifists you had better rethink that.
            You are one that is hateful, vitriolic, irrational and a sexual pervert. You WILL stop shoving your cult religion down every ones throat and it’ll be sooner than you think. Of course, since the average age of a male homosexual is twenty years less than everyone else it may be too late for you to see what eventually happens in this nation.
            WE ARE SICK OF YOU SICKOS.

          • LeftleaningTx

            Jim,
            Jesus would be so disappointed in you !!
            As an ardent student of your cult with your unique understanding above all others i’m surprised that you’d resort to such hateful language.
            What happened to ” turn the other cheek” or ” treat thy neighbor as thyself ” ?
            I think you just committed a whole host of infractions to Jesus’s teaching, they not apply to you?

            Not surprising that you turned out to be a hypocrite, that is what cult followers do. Happy to sit in judgement of others and excuse yourself for you shortcomings tisk tisk tisk
            What are we to do with you ?

            I don’t have to lift a finger to have you serve me. Our long settled Civil Rights Law of 1964 will do that for me!!!
            You might just want to check the “accommodations” clause.
            See the bigot christian discriminated against African Americans for religious reasons too and the Civil Rights laws were created just so that bigots just like couldn’t discriminate for ANY reason and that included closely held religious beliefs too. So we WILL FORCE YOU to services us.

            So in the end your religious reich has lost.,,,,lost the battle,,,lost the war,,,,,,lost the social war,,,,,not surprising that more and more people hate the religious christian reich and it’s behavior just like yours that has caused it.

          • Jim Deferio

            It doesn’t matter how old a book is, the question should be, is it true or not. Would you throw out Aristotle’s works because they are about 2,300 years old? Don’t be foolish.

            If everything is merely opinion then there are is no moral objectivity including there being nothing wrong for Muslims to put to death homosexualists.

            “Nature”, what is it? You can claim that EVERYTHING is natural because EVERYTHING occurs in nature including rape, incest, cannibalism, theft of burrows, nests and shelter, eating one’s offspring, parasitism, disease, survival of the fittest, defending territory by killing interlopers, and on and on it goes.

            No, things are natural if they fit and function within their basic reason, purpose, goal and teleological design.

            Also, what is observed in the animal kingdom in regards to “homosexuality” is not animals developing a “gay identity” but animals relieving sexual impulses any way they can. When bull elk fight for the harem of females only one male gets the harem, the others may seek to relieve their pent up hormonal surge for a mate by mounting other males. It is “situational homosexuality” much like men in prison for a long time experience. Dr. Paul Vasey is the one who pioneered the work in this area.

            Clearly cannibalism would be more “natural” than homosexuality since animals do not develop a “gay identity” but animals do enjoy eating no matter where it comes from and because food is a necessity.

          • LeftleaningTx

            Jim,
            Deep in prayer asking for forgiveness after your hateful hate speech yesterday?
            I’m sure Jesus forgives you and I would too, all you have to do is ask, Although not a cult member I am very big on turning the other cheek. After all gay people have much practice at it as long as the cults have been bashing us.

          • Waycool Jr

            >>>>>a hateful, name calling, judgemental, bigot.<<<<<

            Um, isn't that name-calling as well? I'd say you got even.Isn't calling the Bible a "Stone-Age cult book" a purposeful insult as well?

          • LeftleaningTx

            Several things to note.
            A) I am not a cult follower and as such I do not live by the rules that they set out to have others live by, those are THEIR rules they THEY are supposed to live by.
            B) Given the decades of denigration and dehumanization by christians of gay people you really expect that we not defend ourselves ? Seriously ?

            While larger religious like Christianity like to reserve the word “cult” to insult other religions they in actuality are all “cults” some older, some bigger but all cults nonetheless and an appropriate description.

            Christianity has pitted its rights against Civil Gay rights and LOST.
            This week we say an historic moment when Christianity lost the social war as well.
            And now the Bully’s for decades are screaming victim.
            I don’t see anyone rushing to their aid, they created their own demise and it is all from self inflicted wounds.

            I do know several things that WILL occur. The Civil Rights Laws of 1964 WILL be enforced and business’s will be forced to serve us or face stiff judgements
            And
            It is no longer acceptable for christians to openly denigrated gay people in the public square. They’ll have to do that behind church wall where it always should have been.

            Religion has lost, the wicked witch is dead

          • timetorun

            LL, maybe you should take heed of your own words. Your need for all caps betray your blind anger. You should be careful, your anger is taking you down a path toward rage and murder. Jesus loves you and I hope you will graciously find repentance.

        • Neda Bauer

          Melissa and David, everything you tell these gay radicals is falling on deaf ears . There is only two or three that keep posting their crude mouthy behavior on different sites They are Homo trolls so just laugh and don’t let them get to you.

      • Michael Stevens

        oh please cant ONE of you homosexuals find something else to argue with us about besides the trite rebuttal of ‘judging’???

        If you would only actually READ the Bible (and start with Romans chapter 1) you find that GOD… yes GOD… has judged that unrepentant sin will meet with eternal damnation, and in Roman’s 1 you see unequivocally that homosexuality is a sin like all others and homosexuals will meet the same fate if they do not repent (turn away from) that sin.

        • Paul Hiett

          You do understand that not everyone believes what you do. Your choice of a religion gives you no more right to judge or discriminate against others than any other religion does.

          It’s like you people think your religion is the only one out there.

          • Y-G

            It’s like you, seculars. You choose your world of view and try to force it into religious people. Been secular don’t gives you the right to judge or discriminate us.

            You seculars think your world view is the only one out there.

          • MisterPine

            Logic fail. Serious fail.
            You have adopted a belief system. We haven’t, and therefore we have nothing to inflict on you.

          • David Anderson

            It’s not a choice of religion; it’s a relationship with a living God.

        • LeftleaningTx

          Actually no,

          There would be no issue at all if it were not for the selective use of your stone age cult text that you use to judge others by, one would think that you’ll would have figured that out already given how deep unpopular you’ll have become for shoving that judgement down other people throats.

          For heavens sake WHY would i or anyone else for that matter choose to selectively read/use stone age cult text to live your life by?
          The notion is absurd and whatever sense you have God is most certainly perverted.

          Case in point, you wonder why there is a frequent reference to your cults judgements and then you end with “has judged that unrepentant sin will meet with eternal damnation, and in Roman’s 1”

          That you cannot see the utter absurdity of your judgements and denial of it is astounding but I think that is a natural consequence of suspending all of your critical thinking skills to selectively follow stone age cult text.
          Your shortcoming are outstandingly obvious to ALL of America and they have, by striking down this law, shown you that. Seems a moron might find a lessen in that but then maybe you don’t even qualify for that title.

          • Michael Stevens

            wow, a thorough trashing you gave me. >rolling my eyes<
            here I was respectful and trying to argue with fact and reason to paul but you seem to stick by the same old tired tricks when you have no ability to properly engage in reasoned and respectful debate, and that is for you to just sound off all haughty and demeaning and arrogant.

            And the word Sodomy predates any other word for homosexuality. Judgement, judgement, judgement. Seems you are judging ME while I in turn point out who the real Judge is and will be. You can call me names, slander, revile me, hurt me, kill me, but it will be GOD who judges you, not me. I teach His Word. Many in that day will kneel and try to reason themselves an excuse and it will all fail.

            Stay with the same attitude you have now, and you will find out too late what horror really awaits all those who defy the Living God.

        • thoughtsfromflorida

          How is that relevant to the law?

          • Paul Hiett

            But…but…”God’s Law!!!!”

        • Parque_Hundido

          Sure. You’re arguing against god. It’s god’s will that this law never be passed. God does not want bigots to use religion as an excuse to discriminate. You should get down on your hands and knees and thank gay people for showing you god’s will.

          You’re welcome.

          • David Anderson

            If you only knew the terror of standing before the Creator Of All. EVERY ONE OF OUR WRONG DOINGS ARE HIGHLIGHTED IN THE COUNTENANCE OF THE LIVING GOD. It is the most humbling experience in Life Review when you must see ALL that you did, ALL that you could of done, and ALL that you did not do while you were on Earth. And the most important part of it all is how much you loved. To stand before the God of Creation is to stand in complete awe if you have been forgiven of sin. But to stand before the Living God in sin, is complete terror, becuase you have no place in him and you a rejected and taken to the pit; where you CAN NEVER LEAVE. With Christ and his blood, we can be forgiven. His cleanses our sins; it makes us new. So that we can stand before the Holy Father, sinless and blameless because our advocate, Jesus, has excused us from the sin we collected while on Earth. We all came from God, but it’s up to us if we want to go back to him. In my OBE’s with Heaven, I came to realize that Heaven is the ultimate reality, and that this life is but a dream. It’s up to us to either accept Jesus for who he is and his LOVE he has for us and inherit the final reality of Heaven, or reject him and his love and inherit the wages of sin in the most horrendous of nightmares. He loves you! Now, what will you choose? Yes to Jesus or No. Remember there is no exit and no escape from Hell; you can’t get out. But Heaven. the place where fantasy meets the ultimate reality, is a never ending place of love that you never want to leave. It’s your choice. God doesn’t send anyone to Hell. He loves all of his creation.

          • Parque_Hundido

            God hates bigots. It’s as simple as that.

          • LeftleaningTx

            Thank you for presenting such a stunningly stark example of what being indoctrinated into a cult can do the the unfortunates mind.

            Clearly the abject terror of being subjected to your cult beliefs has causes some type of madness and it is doubtful that you ever can or would recover.

            Thank goodness the world has been warned against you and your and that at least many of the children are able to escape the cult before they are driven mad as well.

            I would feel sorry for you except that your myopic cult view hurts so many people that you deserve no pity and should be jailed as to prevent the spread of this disease

        • Phipps Mike

          “. yes GOD… has judged that unrepentant sin will meet with eternal damnation,”

          so GOD is the person to enforce it, NOT man….comprende?

      • Neda Bauer

        We do love you just not your lifestyle.

        • LeftleaningTx

          And fortunately we do not care about your love / judgements but we care about the 14th Amendment that will FORCE you and your other christian scum to serve us just like everyone else

        • Bill

          then you don’t love them.

          • Neda Bauer

            if you believe love is agreeing with everything someone else wants then i hope you never have kids, oops sorry about that!

          • Bill

            I’m straight you stupid pig

        • thoughtsfromflorida

          I love you but just not your lifestyle.

    • Parque_Hundido

      THis is god’s will. God doesn’t want bigots to pass laws that allow you to discriminate.

      You should be giving thanks.

  • RWH

    I take it by stating Christians, they mean only the ones who think like the religious right. There were plenty of Christians who were against this legislation because it is discriminatory. All one has to do is to look at the picture of the folks surrounding Pence when he signed the bill. Absent were Catholic prelates, or representatives from mainline denominations. In fact the United Church of Christ came out with a well-written criticism of the legislation and showed that it isn’t the same as the 1993 legislation. The only ones in the picture were people from organizations that think like the AFA and such. Within the mainstream, not the fundy right, everyone pretty much recognized this legislation for what it was–let’s get the gays. That Pence was shocked that so many people have gay relatives and friends and that these people formed a groundswell (not just businesses). If the religious right is shocked, Scripture says something about inheriting the whirlwind.

    • FoJC_Forever

      God will not Judge those who embrace His Word on any matter, including homosexuality. God’s Judgement is upon those who twist His Word into their own personal, or collectively personal, meaning.

      • Alex Helms

        God also said not to wear clothes of two different fabrics, you cotten-polyester blend wearing heathen.

        • FoJC_Forever

          If you’re referring to specifics in the Law given to the children if Israel through Moses, that Covenant has passed away.

      • RWH

        And there are those that see that all of those clobber verses that people like to quote are not so simple black and white issues. Just about all of the OT references have to do with the worship of pagan gods. The NT refer to people who gave up on God and then fell into all sorts of stuff. None talk about relations where people truly love each other, but rather they talk about raw promiscuity. Christ said nothing except in the minds of those who use all sorts of rhetorical smoke and mirror reasoning. Whatever the case, more and more people are questioning whether the Bible is that black and white on the issue. And these people are getting more and more repelled by the strident rhetoric. The bottom line is that there was a groundswell of people that opposed this law, and the Governor and the legislature saw that this law was unsustainable. The only thing left is to see the heads of the extreme religious right pop open. And the Republicans have a problem. Their militant, uncompromising base, which cannot amount to more than 15% of the population, is slowly fading out of the picture, and these Republicans are realizing that a candidate who caters to this bunch is going to turn off everyone else. Don’t be surprised if another Democrat wins. .

      • Joyce

        The problem is the picking and choosing what to obey. Embrace it all or your faith is hollow and inconsequential.

        • FoJC_Forever

          A bigger problem come from false teachers who use the world’s feminist movement to capitalize on religion, leading hundreds of thousands astray, while imparting the ideas and feelings of pride and self-importance through their own works.

      • RWH

        And what exactly constitutes “twisting His Word?” Should we put our minds in neutral and pay attention to the Church fathers? People have done extensive word studies in the original languages, and many are honest enough to admit that some meanings are obscure. Bible versions in English vary in what they interpret the original languages exactly mean. Most of all, we must not confuse “twisting His Word” with idiosyncratic interpretations. And some have created a cottage industry out of fearing and loathing the gays that all sane judgment has been clouded.

  • Bolvon72

    Might as well get used to it, it’s a new and improved country.

    • Joyce

      It will be after 2016 when the Dems control both houses of Congress and the White House. Can’t wait to hear all whining then. You think you are persecuted now, just wait.

      • Nick_from_Detroit

        Planning on breaking out the guillotines, Joyce?
        Like your French forefathers, during the Terror?

        • Paul Hiett

          You mean like how Christians used to love torturing people to get “confessions” out of them, or perhaps like they did in Salem, just hang them or drown them? Perhaps you’d like to see more atheists burned at the stake like your forefathers loved to do?

          Yeah, tell us all about how awesome and kind and tolerant Christianity has been throughout history…

      • Paul Hiett

        There isn’t a Christian alive that knows what real persecution is.

        • Nick_from_Detroit

          Except, all the Chaldean Catholics in Iraq. Oh, and the Coptic Christians in Egypt. Oh, and the Christians in Syria beheaded by ISIS. And, the ones beheaded in Libya.
          So, yes, Mr. Hiett, other than those, there isn’t a Christian alive that knows what real persecution is.

          • Paul Hiett

            Guess I should have clarified “in America”. You knew that of course, but decided to stray outside the lines of this issue in order to try and prove a moot point. Congrats.

            My point still stands for Christians here in the US. None of them know what real persecution is.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            So, it’s my fault that you didn’t express yourself clearly? Or, am I required to be a mind-reader, too?
            I would say that the Christians who’ve had to close their businesses, because of the fascistic tactics of some opponents of RFRA laws, know what real persecution is.

  • http://www.crossroad.to John

    Now would be a good time for Christians to not only pray for revival, but actually do something by preaching The Word and getting more involved in their local community.

    You could also #StandForRFRA by signing the ADF petition: https://www.alliancedefendingfreedom.org/page/standforrfra

  • FoJC_Forever

    Politicians pass laws that fit with the most influential parts of our culture. Satan has most politicians scared to death about offending homosexuals and their desire to force others to accept and honor their sexual perversions.

    They can seem pleasant, but underneath that facade of kindness is a very angry and aggressive spirit. Those who have embraced homosexuality, or any sin, as being okay with God are simply being led by the Devil. This bill is proof that the governor of Indiana is a pawn of Sin.

    • LeftleaningTx

      NO
      What the politicians are afraid of is the loss of money they have experienced for pandering to social conservatives.
      Satan doesn’t even come into the picture.

      • FoJC_Forever

        Satan uses money and other pressures to force people to accept Sin and pander to those who promote their carnal desires.

        • LeftleaningTx

          Satan tricks people into the cult of christianity so that they may judge other for a variety of things that they excuse themselves from, give up your evil ways, accept your follow man as his is instead of the judgements that Satan wants you to hold.
          It is never to late as you hurt no one more than yourself.

          • FoJC_Forever

            Your comments and ideas are nonsensical.

    • Parque_Hundido

      LOL. Now you’re just outnumbered. More Americans approve of gay people than approve of evangelical christians.

      As the pizza incident made clear: who do you want planning your party? Some snaggle-tooth, hate spitting bigot or literally any gay guy off the street?

    • Phipps Mike

      ” and their desire to force others to accept and honor their sexual perversions.”
      wrong!!! they are asking you to accept THEM as PEOPLE. not their ACTIONS.

  • Sharon Jackson

    Again, the rabid left have run roughshod over something “they don’t approve of”. Another government official caves to the assault of the homosexuals and the foaming at the mouth liberals. So, what was the purpose of the bill initially. Basically, nothing has changed and the Christians are again being thrown to the lions. The rights of the left should not override the rights of the right. Why does the left hate Christians…because they know in their (liberals) hearts they are living against God’s word and guilt and hate will make people over react. If they had just read the first bill as it was intended…it never discriminated against anyone, it only gave Christians and people of other faiths the ability to practice their religion…also known as Freedom of Religion. And to do so without oppression and constant bombardment of legal assaults and the right to run their business according to their faith. I am so sick of these gays, etc. Hey guys, you are not “special” you should not have more rights than anyone else. You should spend your time doing something constructive and helpful instead of trying to ruin people’s lives and businesses. Go into a Muslim bakery and see how that goes. But take a basket with you so you have something to carry your head in. They are openly killing gays daily, as well as Christians. You should be fighting against that instead of trying to injure people who are not causing you any harm.

    • Paul Hiett

      Christians are being thrown to the lions because they can’t discriminate against gay people?

      That’s what you’re upset about?

      I think your priorities in life might be a tad mixed up.

      • Joyce

        Ya think?

      • Waycool Jr

        Stop with the fallacies already. It is not discriminating against a person, it is refusing to take part in something they do not believe in. They believe that supplying bouquets, photographing and baking a cake is defacto taking part. They should be free to believe that and exercise that belief.

    • MattFCharlestonSC

      Please tell me what “special” rights we have that you don’t already have? It is already illegal to deny service to someone for their religious beliefs.

      • Paul Hiett

        Instead of “beliefs”, we really should be saying, “religious choice”.

    • thoughtsfromflorida

      “They are openly killing gays daily, as well as Christians. You should be fighting against that instead of trying to injure people who are not causing you any harm.”

      Great advice you may want to consider taking. Fight against Christians being killed rather than trying to injure people based on nothing more than your not agreeing with them.

    • RWH

      This statement is true in a sense. Most everyone else is to the left of the extreme right. What was shocking to Pence was that a lot of people in the middle have family and friends who are gay and who were against this legislation. By the way, I know of Moslem bakeries that do serve everyone. Most people know how to balance things out. This is why the right has found only a few token cause celebres.

    • Alex Helms

      dumb

    • Joyce

      You should be fighting for what was important to your Savior. You should be being Christ like. His priorities were the poor, the sick and the outcasts. But you elect people who vilify them and cut services for them. I think you have it backwards. American Christianity has been hijacked by the American Taliban.

  • thoughtsfromflorida

    ““Christian bakers, florists and photographers … no longer have the benefit of Indiana law to help protect them from being forced by the government to participate in a homosexual wedding,” also lamented Eric Miller, founder and executive director of Advance America.”

    Ahhh…poor Eric is lamenting. How sad. He’s also lying. The government cannot “force” anyone to participate in a homosexual wedding. Owing a business is a choice. What products or services the business offers is a choice. There is no “forcing”.

    ““If a Christian vendor can be forced to collaborate with an unmitigated evil, like assisting with a homosexual marriage”

    They can’t.

    • Alex Helms

      Dumb

    • worthywalking

      So, Christians who do not “believe” in the new twisted definition
      of marriage, and are unwilling to participate in it with all others in the
      celebration, “need not apply” for the business license?

      • Paul Hiett

        If you intend to open a business that caters weddings, and the law states you can’t discriminate against sexual orientation, you have two choices. Open your business and comply with the law, or don’t open your business.

      • thoughtsfromflorida

        They are welcome to apply. In addition, in many places they are free to discriminate based upon sexual orientation. In Oklahoma, for instance, same-gender marriage is legal, as is discrimination based upon sexual orientation.

        It would be unwise, however, to offer products in one’s business, in a location where sexual orientation is a covered category, that the owner knows they are unwilling to provide based upon sexual orientation.

        • worthywalking

          The only objection I notice is over participating in a marriage. So, only those who agree with you about the new definition of marriage may be in business?

  • MaryAnn Hastings Rosser

    When we compromise our beliefs, our standards of society as a whole, and allow different factions to dictate what is right and wrong for the individual relating to Christian belief systems, we have begun the slow fade. People have stopped trying to reverse what has already been so harmfully done for many different scenarios. Those in powerful positions have a great responsibility to represent to the whole of those they serve, not just the ones who want everyone to acquiesce to the people making the louder noise about what is right or wrong. No one should be allowed to dictate what the individual desires. If we set this standard, then we are no different than what we have seen looking back at history and why people came to America in the first place: RELIGIOUS FREEDOM! And yet here we are again with dictatorship mandating things of personal religious beliefs to those who do not believe as the dictator does. If they don’t believe in Christian values, then that is their prerogative but forcing their opinions on others is just a reverse stance in order for them to get what they want so this no different than “reversing the former standards in order to bully their way into dictatorship so to speak against those they have already infringed upon against the individual.” The “melting pot” was never intended to set up another opportunity for someone to require a particular belief system. People are so busy with “causes” in society today that they have lost sight of the fact that this is in reality just another way to begin enslavement to what government entities require of law-abiding citizens. Shame on those who are mandating these things….our Constitution was never intended to infringe on religious beliefs and it’s not freedom FROM religion, it is freedom of religion. Now, here is another issue….what about those who are illegally allowed to be in our country….anyone want to raise a hand and ask how and why this is ok? I don’t tell anyone how to live, though I do express my beliefs and opinions, but I DON’T FORCE THEM ON ANYONE! This is the difference.

    • Paul Hiett

      Then you’re in agreement that Christians should not discriminate against homosexuals, since you don’t want to “force” your beliefs and opinions on anyone, right?

      • Nick_from_Detroit

        This is pretty much the same fallacy as your other one, Mr. Hiett.
        How does NOT making a “wedding” cake for an SS counterfeit “marriage” ceremony force my beliefs and opinions on anyone?
        How does NOT taking photographs at an SS counterfeit “marriage” ceremony force my beliefs and opinions on anyone?
        How does a Jewish baker NOT making me an Easter cake force his beliefs on me?
        Still waiting.

        • Paul Hiett

          Refusing service to customers based on race, gender, religion, and in some places, sexual orientation, is against the law.

          Either follow the laws, or face the consequences. It’s pretty simple.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            More deflection & obfuscation.
            How does it “force” my “beliefs and opinions on anyone”?
            You made the assertion, Mr. Hiett. It’s your premise. Why can’t you defend it? It’s a simple question, really.

          • Paul Hiett

            Again, Nick, businesses are not allowed to discriminate. There’s valid reasons for this, which I’m sure you could come up with on your own with a little thinking involved.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Again, more deflection & obfuscation. In what world does your reply answer my inquiry, Mr. Hiett? How does NOT making a “wedding” cake for an SS counterfeit “marriage” ceremony “force” my “beliefs and opinions on anyone”? Still waiting.

          • Paul Hiett

            Your intellectual dishonesty is amazing. You simply want to ignore the facts because you think homosexuals are “icky”, and you have a complete lack of understanding how laws work in this country.

            Here’s a question for you…how is not serving blacks not racism?

            Answer that, and you’ll have your answer to your own questions.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            You, Mr. Hiett, epitomize the old lawyer adage:
            If you’re wrong on the law, pound the facts.
            If you’re wrong on the facts, pound the law.
            And, if you’re wrong on both, pound the table!
            .

            I’m not answering your questions until you answer mine, okay?
            How does NOT making a “wedding” cake for an SS counterfeit “marriage” ceremony “force” my “beliefs and opinions on anyone”? Still waiting.

            Talk about intellectual dishonesty. Sheesh!

          • Paul Hiett

            It’s called discrimination, Nick. You’re simply too ignorant of the law to understand this.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            You’re still deflecting and obfuscating, Mr. Hiett.
            Answer my simple question, please. You made this bogus assertion, why can’t you defend it? I mean, you’ve obviously thought these issues through, riiiiight?
            Do realize how ridiculous you look, right now?

          • Paul Hiett

            Your problem, Nick, is that you refuse to accept that your religion discriminates against others. It’s called “hate”, regardless of how you want to spin it. This is why you’re on the losing side day after day.

            You can sit here and whine and cry about how unfair it is that you can’t act upon your hate, but no one really cares.

            When you can stop calling people “homo-fascists” and stop calling SS marriages as being counterfeit, then maybe we’ll take you a little more seriously. Until then, you simply come off as an uneducated religious bully.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Your problem, Mr. Hiett, is that you make asinine statements, and, then can’t defend them.
            Now, stop pounding the table, stop trying to change the subject in a pathetic attempt to deflect, and answer my question, please?
            How does NOT making a “wedding” cake for an SS counterfeit “marriage” ceremony “force” my “beliefs and opinions on anyone”? Still waiting.

          • Paul Hiett

            Are you using your Bible to discriminate against homosexuals in this case?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Answer the question, please, Mr. Hiett.

          • Paul Hiett

            Just trying to understand the context of this scenario. Are you refusing because your schedule is full, or are you refusing because your religious choice demands it?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Stop pounding the table, stop trying to change the subject in a pathetic attempt to deflect, and answer my question, please?
            How does NOT making a “wedding” cake for an SS counterfeit “marriage” ceremony “force” my “beliefs and opinions on anyone”? Still waiting.

          • Paul Hiett

            But again, why are you not making the cake? Is it because you are referencing the Bible and then discriminating against homosexuals directly, or is it because you’re simply too busy?

            It’s all about context, Nick.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            No, it’s not. Stop pounding the table, and answer the question, please?

          • MisterPine

            Your belief system does not trump the law, and you seem to think it does.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Answer the question, Mr. Pine.

          • MisterPine

            It’s a loaded question, Nick from Detroit. If you could learn to phrase things without religious editorializing (counterfeit “marriage” indeed) people would take you more seriously. Ask a proper question, not one that forces us to accept a false premise. In the eyes of the law ss marriages are legal, so don’t refer to them as “counterfeit” and you can remove your mocking quotation marks as well.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Umm…no.
            Now, answer the question.

          • MisterPine

            Ask a non-loaded, non-ridiculous question and I will be happy to answer it.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I haven’t. So, answer the question, please?

          • MisterPine

            Well Nick from Detroit, as I’ve already said the marriages aren’t counterfeit – in the eyes of the law which is all that matters, they are legal. So how about asking a non-loaded question?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Stop pounding the table, like your buddy, Mr. Hiett, and just answer the question, okay?

          • MisterPine

            Why are you petulantly insisting I answer a dishonest question, Nick from Detroit? Prove to me the marriage is counterfeit.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            That wasn’t the question, Mr. Pine. Stop deflecting, and just answer my very simple question, okay?

          • David Anderson

            Ultimate laws came from the belief system.

          • MisterPine

            What ultimate laws?

          • Michael Stevens

            Not at all. He has you painted into a corner with no escape. Brilliantly done Nick! He has no answer because he would be forced to acknowledge you are correct!

          • Paul Hiett

            Not at all. Nick likes to paint these scenarios as though answering him in any fashion deems him “right”.

            Not baking a wedding cake for someone does not force anyone to believe in his choice of a religion.

            However, the opposite is true as well. Baking a wedding cake for someone doesn’t force him to accept their choice to get married, does it?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Then you’re in agreement that Christians should not discriminate against homosexuals, since you don’t want to “force” your beliefs and opinions on anyone, right? – Paul Hiett

            Not baking a wedding cake for someone does not force anyone to believe in his choice of a religion. – Paul Hiett

            Care to square those two statements, please?

          • Paul Hiett

            Let’s see if we can make this easier for you to understand.

            Not baking a cake does not force anyone to become a Christian, just like baking a cake does not force anyone to accept homosexuality.

            However, not baking a cake when your business offers such cakes to the public and then claiming that your religious choice prevents it, IS discrimination if that state/county has such a law.

            Have we cleared up your confusion over the issue?.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            You’re still the one who is confused, Mr. Hiett.
            How does discriminating “force” my “beliefs and opinions on anyone”? Your words, not mine.

          • Paul Hiett

            You are preventing a customer from shopping at your store. You are preventing a customer from utilizing the services that your business offers to the general public.

            When you prevent someone from using a store that is open to the general public, and then refuse to sell them anything, that is forcing your beliefs on them.

            Do you really not understand something so simple?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            When you prevent someone from using a store that is open to the general public, and then refuse to sell them anything, that is forcing your beliefs on them.

            How, Mr. Hiett? It’s refusing them service, that’s all. Nobody’s beliefs are forced upon another. They just go somewhere else for service. If a baker refuses to make a pornographic cake for a bachelor party, based on his religion, is he forcing his beliefs on the others?

          • Paul Hiett

            Yes, Nick, you ARE forcing your beliefs on someone when you force them to go somewhere else to purchase the goods/service your store advertised to them.

            You’re just too unethical to understand this fact.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            [W]hen you force them to go somewhere else to purchase the goods/service your store advertised to them.

            So, Mr. Hiett, as long as the baker, photographer, etc., DO NOT advertise that they provide services/products for SS counterfeit “marriage” ceremonies, they can refuse to provide them?
            Well, I guess were just solved this brouhaha, huh?
            Because I’m willing to bet that none of these proprietors, who have been sued, advertised that they would provide such services for these bogus ceremonies.
            How is it unethical, by the way?

          • Paul Hiett

            My god you present some of the stupidest arguments. Yes, NIck, if a business does not offer wedding cakes, they can’t be sued for not making one for a gay wedding. Just like a Long John Silvers could not be sued for not selling sushi to Japanese man.

            You really don’t think before you post.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            And, you just don’t think, Mr. Hiett.
            No, not wedding cakes. If they did NOT advertise that they make “gay wedding” cakes, they can’t be sued, correct? That was your criteria, remember?
            [W]hen you force them to go somewhere else to purchase the goods/service your store advertised to them.

            If the baker, photographer, etc., DID NOT advertise that they provide products/services for SS so-called “marriage” ceremonies, they’re NOT discriminating, because you can’t sue Long John Silvers for not serving sushi, according to you, Mr. Hiett. Riiiiiight?

          • uzza

            It FORCES me to go to another bakery.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            But, how does going “to another bakery” force my “beliefs and opinions on” you, Uzza? How does that force you to believe that Christ is God? Try to stay on topic, okay?

          • uzza

            OK, got it.
            You’re still breaking the law though in most states, plus there’s the issue of hypocrisy. But I see your point.

          • Paul Hiett

            Essentially, what Nick is saying is that discrimination doesn’t force anyone to believe in his choice of a religion. Unfortunately for him, that’s not the issue.

            The issue here is whether or not business owners should be allowed to discriminate against customers if the customer’s sexual orientation goes against what his Bible teaches. He fails to understand that if he has a belief that he wants to follow, but it requires treating other people like second class citizens, it’s no longer about beliefs, but pure discrimination on his part.

            Yes, he is most certainly forcing his beliefs on those whom he deems unworthy when he refuses to serve them based on those beliefs.

          • uzza

            You’re right, the issue is +/- discriminate, regardless of what any holy book says. But Nick’s right too, about your statement, even if he is sort of deflecting.
            Flying those planes into the WTC didn’t force those guys’ beliefs on me, I didn’t become a Muslim, they just broke the law.

          • Paul Hiett

            Not you, no, but they most certainly forced those beliefs on the passengers in the plane, right?

          • uzza

            I doubt any of them were reciting the Shahada when they hit the ground. They kept their own beliefs, just not their lives.
            Again, as you say, it’s not the issue. Your point was that they shouldn’t ACT ON their beliefs in order to discriminate, with which I agree.

          • Paul Hiett

            And this is where we have our issue…acting on beliefs.

            It’s one thing when a person stands on a street corner and preaches. It’s quite another when a person decides his beliefs require action against another person.

          • uzza

            Exactly. Everyone has the right to firmly believe that they should kill someone else. They just don’t get to do it.

            Religion’s really got nothing to do with it.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Except, Uzza, there are rights to life, liberty, and property.
            There is no right to make someone else bake you a “wedding” cake, is there?

          • Paul Hiett

            There is a law about businesses discriminating though, Nick, which is the part you seem to have a hard time understanding.

          • uzza

            There definitely is. A legal right, arguably not a moral right. As a member of the general public you have a legal right to use the services of any business. We had this discussion in the sixties, it should be settled.

          • Paul Hiett

            You’ll soon find that Nick believes that “freedom of association” releases a business from having to abide by the Civil Rights Act of 64.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            What hypocrisy? Although, Uzza, I’m glad that you can see the illogical premise of Mr. Hiett’s.

          • uzza

            Here’s how I see it. The bible and Ten Commandments forbid false swearing: should a christian contract with the State to operate a business serving the general public, with no intention of serving the general public, have they not broken their own Commandment?

            And, if they advertise a service to the public and then refuse to provide that service, haven’t they broken the 9th commandment, against bearing false witness?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I was just reading about this last night, Uzza. Because of all this hoopla, I was reading about the origin of business licenses in South Carolina. They were attempts to get more tax revenue out of bankers, lawyers, railroads, etc.
            My ability to earn a livelihood shouldn’t depend on the consent of the state, nor, should my freedom to contract, which is protected under the U.S. Constitution.
            Forcing the baker, photographer, etc., to provide services/products they find offensive or against their beliefs violates their rights to freely contract, associate, and exercise their religious beliefs.

          • uzza

            You didn’t answer the question.

          • Paul Hiett

            As predicted, Nick goes to “freedom of association” to think that it applies to businesses.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I think I did. In Michigan, you don’t contract with the state to do business with the general public. There are licenses for mechanical trades, DBAs, liquor, etc.
            But, my rights under the constitution are the Supreme Law of the Land.
            So, I wouldn’t be violating the Eighth Commandment.
            Just to let you know, Uzza, as a Catholic, I believe it was perfectly constitutional for business owners to put signs in their windows saying, “Irish Need Not Apply,” or, “Catholics Need Not Apply.”

          • Paul Hiett

            This is why we have the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

            It’s also a good indication of what kind of character you really are. You believe in all types of discrimination.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            So do you, Mr. Hiett. You’re the one who didn’t have a problem with Rosa Parks getting arrested for not giving up her seat on that bus, remember? Because, it was the law, after all.

          • Paul Hiett

            That’s right, Nick. Civil disobedience is not without it’s risk. But, it can work. Rosa knew the risks, and I applaud her for what she did.

          • uzza

            In Michigan, you don’t contract with the state to do business with the general public.
            That is a lie.
            my rights under the constitution are the Supreme Law of the Land.
            So, I wouldn’t be violating the Eighth Commandment.

            That is insane. As in “Apples are blue, therefore Unicorns drive Hondas.”
            Thanks for playing though.

          • Paul Hiett

            Welcome to “Nick”, Uzza.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Those aren’t arguments, Uzza. You’re pounding the table, like Mr. Hiett.
            I’ve had DBAs in MI, as well as been incorporated. I don’t remember promising to serve the general public. And, Michigan doesn’t give special rights to homosexuals, vis-a-vis, discrimination.
            So….yeah.

          • Paul Hiett

            Were you able to deny service to blacks, women, and those of other religions?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            No, because it’s against my religion to do so.
            Next.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            How does making a cake for a SS wedding “force” anyone to accept or condone SS marriage?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Straw man, TfF. I didn’t make the original assertion. And, I never claimed that making the “wedding” cake made someone “accept or condone” SS counterfeit “marriage.”
            Forcing the baker to make the “wedding” cake, um, forces the baker to cooperate in a mockery of the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony. It forces the photographer to attend and record this mockery of the photographer’s deeply held beliefs.
            Refusing to participate in this mockery in no way forces the SS “couple” believe in the Bible, Christ, or Christianity. Does it?
            Can I force a Jewish or Moslem baker to make me an Easter cake? Can a [email protected] force a Jewish baker to make a birthday cake for HitIer?

          • Paul Hiett

            So baking a cake means you’ve suddenly supported gay marriage? Doing your job suddenly changed your religious choice?

            Wow, new one on me.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “Straw man, TfF.”

            A “straw man” is a descriptor of an argument. I didn’t put forth an argument. I asked a question. Therefore, my post was not “straw man”.

            ” I never claimed that making the “wedding” cake made someone “accept or condone” SS counterfeit “marriage.”

            Nor did I suggest that you did. I merely asked you a question, which you failed to answer.

            “Forcing the baker to make the “wedding” cake”

            The baker isn’t forced. No baker has been forced to do this, nor can any baker be forced to do so. The decision to offer wedding cakes is a choice. If a baker doesn’t want to make wedding cakes for same-gender marriages, the baker is free to not offer wedding cakes as one of the services the baker provides. The baker is also free to locate his/her business in a location which does not provide protections based upon sexual orientation. Finally, a person who bakes is not required to open a bakery. Ditto for a photographer. There is no “forcing”.

            “Refusing to participate in this mockery in no way forces the SS”couple” believe in the Bible, Christ, or Christianity. Does it?”

            No, it does not.

            “Can I force a Jewish or Moslem baker to make me an Easter cake?”

            No, you cannot. If, however, the bakery owned by someone of the Jewish or Muslim faith produces Easter cakes, it cannot legally deny you an Easter cake in violation of anti-discrimination laws.

            ” Can a [email protected] force a Jewish baker to make a birthday cake for HitIer?”

            No, a neo-nazi could not. Political belief is not a covered category.

            Having a better understanding of anti-discrimination laws would benefit you.

            Do you think the baker or photographer, when asked to provide service for a male/female wedding, inquire if either of the couple has been divorced for reasons other than adultery, and then refuses the order if so?

            Do you think that if asked to provide a service for a baby shower that they inquire if the mother-to-be is married, and then refuse the order if she is not?

            Do you think that if asked to provide a service for an engagement party, they inquire if the couple is having sexual relations, and then refuse the order if so?

            Do you think they ask if a couple is being married in a Christian church and being blessed by the Christian god, and refuse the order if not?

            All of those would be participating in celebrations that involve biblical sin. If their not violating their religious beliefs is so very important to them, surely they are making those inquiries and turning down those orders, no? I mean, if not, that would certainly be hypocritical. Which, of course, violates their religious beliefs.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            If, however, the bakery owned by someone of the Jewish or Muslim faith produces Easter cakes, it cannot legally deny you an Easter cake in violation of anti-discrimination laws.

            Yes, exactly. I just solved this, with the help of Mr. Hiett. Since the baker, photographer, etc., did NOT advertise that they provided products/services for SS so-called “marriage” ceremonies, they can’t be forced to do so. If the baker doesn’t make “gay wedding” cakes, he can’t be forced to, right?
            He’ll sell them a plain, old ordinary cake. But, he won’t make a cake he doesn’t already sell to others. Get it?

          • RWH

            Creating a product without advertising it isn’t going to get anyone off the hook. All a lawyer has to do is to prove that a baker makes a product for one but denies it to another. I knew people in the real estate business when I lived in Wisconsin. They were suspected of discriminating on the basis of race, so the government sent in a white couple to inquire about a certain property that wasn’t advertised and were shown the property. A little later they sent in a black couplet to inquire about the same property and were told that it wasn’t available. A little later they sent in another white couple who inquired about the property, and were shown the property. At this point, the white couple served the realtor and immediately removed his license. The court case was fascinating because all three couples had concealed cameras. The realtor not only lost his license but was fined thousands of dollars. And the same will go for any baker.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            It wasn’t my criterion, RWH. It was Mr. Hiett’s.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Does the baker sell wedding cakes to others? Why, yes, he does. Tell me, how would a “gay wedding cake” be different from a “straight wedding cake”?

            The baker advertised that they did cakes for weddings.

            “he can’t be forced to, right?”

            Correct. No one can be forced. Offering wedding cakes is a choice, as is owning a business of public accommodation.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            So, we now need the state to define what is, and is not, a “wedding” cake. Oh, and wedding cake police/inspectors, to enforce these definitions?
            Do you see how much easier freedom and liberty are, TtF? Do you see the absurdity of forcing others to violate their consciences?

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “So, we now need the state to define what is, and is not, a “wedding” cake. ”

            I wouldn’t think so. The bakery calls it that.

            “Do you see the absurdity of forcing others to violate their consciences?”

            There is no forcing going on.If people don’t like the rules that surround operating a business, then they are free to not do so, just as they are free to work to get the laws changed. There is no “forcing”. That is simply a lie.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I wouldn’t think so. The bakery calls it that.
            But, if you can distinguish between an Easter cake and a Yom Kippur cake, why can’t you distinguish between a normal wedding cake and a SS counterfeit “marriage” cake? If the baker gets to decide what to call it?
            After all, the former are different holiday cakes, while the latter are different wedding cakes, no?
            If the baker doesn’t offer SS counterfeit “wedding” cakes, you are forcing him to make one.

            Why can the state tell people HOW to run their businesses? From where did they derive the power to interfere with the right to contract? The Constitution forbids it.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            p.s. Okay, not a straw man. But, begging the question.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “Okay, not a straw man. ”

            I’m glad we agree.

            “But, begging the question.”

            I’m begging for an answer….which you have yet to provide…either to my original question or to the ones above. Why is that?

          • Shawna Waisath

            Sorry, but if you are a public business, you are NOT allowed to discriminate! Maybe you Christian business owners should make your business into a place for members only, with a membership fee. I’m Pagan and bisexual so does that mean you Christians would refuse to serve me?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Sorry, Miss Waisath, but a public business is a publicly traded corporation. A private business owner can operate his business however he sees fit. It called freedom, look it up.
            As opposed to tyranny and despotism, which is what leftwingers are all for, today.
            Would I serve you? It depends on what’s for sale, now, doesn’t it? We Catholics believe that there is just and unjust discrimination. It all depends on the intent and morality of the act. So, I need more data, please?

    • uzza

      it’s not freedom FROM religion, it is freedom of religion.
      Can you please explain what, if anything, this is supposed to mean? We hear it a lot.

      • Nick_from_Detroit

        That’s easy, Uzza. If you know anything about the founding of this great nation.
        You see, the Founding Fathers believed in freedom of conscience. They didn’t believe their government should be able to tell them what to believe. They believed it was a God-given right for an individual to worship Him however one wished. Or, to even not believe in Him, at all.
        However, that did not mean that people who worked for the government, or who were elected to public office, gave up their rights to exercise their religion freely, or, speak freely about God. To twist and distort that into an “establishment of religion” is ridiculous. As SCOTUS did, when they threw prayer out of school.
        To sum up: Your freedom of conscience rights, to not believe in God, in no way gives you the right to be free of my right, to express my belief in God, in public.
        Believe, or, don’t believe. That’s up to you. Just don’t try to silence those of us who do. You have no right to never be exposed to religious expression. Your rights end where mine begin, and vice versa. Hope that helps.

        • thoughtsfromflorida

          “However, that did not mean that people who worked for the government, or who were elected to public office, gave up their rights to exercise their religion freely, or, speak freely about God”

          Who is suggesting they can’t?

          ” my right, to express my belief in God, in public.”

          You seem to be suggesting that you have some “right” to express your religious beliefs in public without restriction. If you believe that to be true, you are mistaken.

          “You have no right to never be exposed to religious expression.”

          Who is suggesting they have such a right?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Who is suggesting they can’t?
            Atheists.

            If you believe that to be true, you are mistaken.
            How? Where don’t I have the right to express my religious views without the govt. stopping me?

            Who is suggesting they have such a right?

            Atheists.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            What would be some examples of atheists saying that people who work for the government give up their rights to exercise their religion freely or speak freely about God?

            What are some examples of atheists saying that people have a right to never be exposed to religion?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Off the top of my head, TfF, I’m thinking of the atheists who have sued to end Congressional chaplains and their opening prayers; to remove “In God We Trust” from our coins and currency; NASA, after the astronauts of Apollo 8 read from Genesis 1, on Christmas Eve, 1968; and, numerous local municipalities to stop them from opening their sessions with a prayer.
            As for your second question, I’m thinking about the atheists who have sued to have Christmas displays, the Ten Commandments, and Crosses removed from public places, all over the country.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Oh, you are referring to efforts to restrict government agencies – which represent all the people of all faiths as well as no faiths, from using taxpayer dollars, which are paid by citizens of all faiths as well as no faith, from favoring the Christian religion. Well, yes, that is being done.

            That, however, is a far cry from saying that people who work for the government give up their rights to exercise their religion freely or speak freely about God or saying that people have a right to never be exposed to religion.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            How did any of my examples use taxpayer dollars to favor the Christian religion?

            Your reply is heavy on mere assertions, and, light on facts.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Those 10 commandment monuments and nativity scenes don’t pay for themselves, pal.

            Is your faith so weak that you need the government to promote it?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Yes, they did. All private funds and donations.
            Next.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            LOL….right. Every nativity scene was paid for by private funds, installed by private citizens (not government employees) and the electricity to light the nativity was paid for by private citizens. Of course they were.

            I’ll ask again: Is your faith so weak that you need the government to promote it?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Yep! It’s all private money. Show me one case where it’s not, okay?

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            I’ll take your word for it.

        • uzza

          Since it didn’t even address the question it didn’t help at all. The phrases “freedom of religion” and “freedom from religion” are synonymous–one cannot have freedom of religion without being free from others’ religions.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            The only way to be free from others’ religions is to live on a deserted island, I’m afraid.
            How does a student mentioning Jesus Christ in a graduation speech force a religion on you? Or, establish a religion by the state? What about the student’s free-speech rights?
            This is what we mean by the bogus assertion freedom from religion. Your right not to believe doesn’t trump my right to express my beliefs, does it?

          • uzza

            Oh bull. Believing is not an issue and never was. How you “express” your beliefs is the issue. If you can’t separate the two you are a fanatic, and an enemy of the democratic ideals this country was founded on. Grow up.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Believing is not an issue and never was.
            I believe I used the example of a student giving a speech. Why are his freedom of speech and religion rights allowed to be violated at a public school graduation?
            You’re the one who supports tyranny, Uzza. I support freedom and liberty.

          • Paul Hiett

            “I support freedom and liberty.”

            Only for Christians, you mean. At least be honest.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            No, Mr. Hiett, for everyone. There’s no right to have someone else make you a cake.

    • thoughtsfromflorida

      “not just the ones who want everyone to acquiesce to the people making the louder noise about what is right or wrong.”

      Oh, you mean like Christians have been doing for years?

      “but forcing their opinions on others”

      Opinions can’t be forced on people. Individuals are free to hold to whatever opinion they care to.

      “Shame on those who are mandating these things”

      So you believe that shame should be heaped on anyone who supports the Civil Rights Act of 1964 as well as all subsequent civil rights and anti-discrimination legislation, correct?

      “but I DON’T FORCE THEM ON ANYONE!”

      Unlike some Christians who desire to set into law restrictions on people based upon nothing more than their believing something is wrong.

      • Y-G

        And because christians are bad, you have to do the same? WOW, what a superior morality you have.

        • thoughtsfromflorida

          While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, I do not think that Christians, as a group, are bad. Nor is it possible to force an opinion on someone. People are free to hold to whatever opinions they care to.

          “WOW, what a superior morality you have.”

          Superior to what?

      • LIFE – A Gift Divine

        Sir when you start recognizing the attrocities of this world and can tie them together in one big overview, I think you will see, your addressing a small window. You state “Unlike some Christians who desire to set into law restrictions on people
        based upon nothing more than their believing something is wrong.” I hope you see the hypocrisy of that statement. You’re specific attack on some Christians, (you might as well say all Christians) talk about civil rights and discrimination and then deny that same exact point when it comes to discrimination against Christian’s as if Christians are the ‘only’ ones that discriminate. That’s crap!

        • thoughtsfromflorida

          “You’re specific attack on some Christians, (you might as well say all Christians) ”

          Why? Not all Christians believe the same. Therefore, it would be inaccurate to say “all Christians”, which is why I did not.

          “hope you see the hypocrisy of that statement.”

          What hypocrisy?

          “deny that same exact point when it comes to discrimination against Christian’s as if Christians are the ‘only’ ones that discriminate.”

          I never denied discrimination against Christians – although I am not aware of any. Nor did I say that Christians are the “only” ones who discriminate.

          Therefore, to label something I didn’t say as “crap” is, well, crap.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Semantics. You seem to use semantics often. I believe you know exactly what my point is, and are again hiding behind questions to elicit a response. For us to have a meaningful discussion just face the opinion directly. For instance your comment “I never denied discrimination against Christians” You may not have done that in this discussion but it’s obvious since you argue against the Christian position or people that have opinions based on it, your implications are that you haven’t or don’t want to consider the discrimination of Christians in your discussions. And please don’t deflect our discussion with spelling errors or the English language. That just gets in the way of the true context of the messages we share back and forth. A comment section is for briefs. Not for reports or business documents.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “You seem to use semantics often.”

            Semantics: the meaning of a word, phrase, sentence, or text.

            Yes, I do believe it is important in discussion to choose my words carefully to ensure that I am saying what I actually mean to say. I think it’s unfortunate that more people are not concerned about that.

            “You may not have done that in this discussion but it’s obvious since you argue against the Christian position or people that have opinions based on it”

            Obvious? Really? So you are making assumptions. Well, you know that they say about that, minus the second part.

            I do not argue against “people that have opinions based on it”. People are free to have whatever opinions they care to. I am more than happy to consider the discrimination of Christians in my discussions. Please, provide me with some examples of the unwarranted discrimination that is being visited upon Christians.

            I’ll ask again: What hypocrisy?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine
          • thoughtsfromflorida

            You, as well as Mr. Hawkins, do not seem to understand what “discrimination” means.

            1. When the government tells the Christian Service Center it has to give up on Christ or quit using USDA food to help the poor, that’s religious discrimination.

            No, it is not. It is discrimination if other religions are allowed to cite their deities, but Christians are not.

            2. No citation of discrimination was given.

            3. “A court has said that a pair of Christians were ‘allowed’ to read the Bible aloud outside the Department of Motor Vehicles in Hemet, California.”

            So the court upheld their right. No discrimination there.

            4. Colorado Baker Faces Year In Jail For Refusing To Make Cake For Gay Wedding

            The baker broke the law. It wasn’t because the baker was Christian. It was because the baker broke the law. If members of other religions were allowed to break the law without consequence but Christians were not, then that would be discrimination.

            5. Airforce Veteran Faces A Court Martial For Opposing Gay Marriage

            Employers have the right to set policy regarding workplace speech. Or do you oppose employers having the right to do that? If a non-Christian were allowed to do the the same thing that this person did, and not face consequences, then that would be discrimination, but that was not the case.

            6. the Park Service recently began a new policy requiring churches that wished to hold baptisms in public waters to apply for a special permit at least 48 hours in advance of the baptism.

            If the Park Service only required permits for Christian baptisms, but not for other religions, then it would be discrimination. There is no evidence that is the case. Further, the Park Service reversed it policy.

            7. Next thing you know, the disciplinary action was waved off.

            No discrimination there.

            You seem to be confusing “living by the same rules as everyone else and not getting special treatment” with actual discrimination, which is when one group is treated differently than another under the same conditions.

            You know, like how two citizens of opposite gender are allowed to marry, but two citizens of the same gender are not. That is discrimination.

    • Kara Connor

      So not letting me marry my wife, or having the right to fire me because I’m a lesbian, or trying to stop LGBT people adopting isn’t forcing your beliefs on them? In your haste to play the martyr you have reversed reality in your head.

  • Brian_Joness

    “Christians Disappointed”? I do not like that the extreme fundamentalists pretend to speak for all Christians. Most Christians are the “love they neighbor” and “judge not” types”. The haters can no longer call themselves simply “Christian” they need to call themselves “Christian extremists” or “militant Christians.” They are making all Christians appear not Christ-like.

    • worthywalking

      Brian, you need to apply the entire Bible, not just a couple of selected verses, including the verse before “love thy neighbor” which states “love the Lord thy God with all thy heart… soul… mind… and strength.” Mark 12:30

      It is interesting to note that the verse Jesus quoted about loving your neighbor as yourself is from Leviticus, the book many “tolerant” people love to hate.

      • uzza

        What are you referring to, it’s Mark 12:30.
        What’s interesting is that it’s also not one of the Ten Commandments. It’s Mark saying what Jesus said, so perhaps Jesus was quoting the Hindu Mahabharata: “This is the sum of duty; do naught onto others what you would not have them do unto you. “
        It’s likely that Jesus spent some of those lost thirty years studying in India.

        • Y-G

          Well, neither Jesus, Budah, Mohamed, Socrates or any master of morality came to say something new. They all say the same because morality was given to human beings by God. So, stop using that popular-new atheists-stupid-nonsense of Jesus secret travels, is pathetic.

          • uzza

            Ok, you admit you don’t need the bible, fine. But unless you you have secret proof of Jesus’ activities for thirty years it seems likely to me. You still lied about Leviticus.

      • Michael Stevens

        and that the Bible is CLEAR (Romans 1) that homosexuality is a sin that will result in eternal separation from God, if the homosexual is not repentant before a Holy God (just as all sinners must be). So if you really want to understand loving your neighbor, I am doing that now by casting a light on their errant ways with the hope that there will be repentance and forgiveness of sins by God. So, how much more could I “love” someone than trying to show the way to save themselves from destruction???

        • Brian_Joness

          No you are doing it for selfish and malicious reasons. Also the Bible was not referring to homosexuals until they changed it in 1946. They didn’t even have a word for it, it just existed and Jesus never condemned it himself even though he saw it on a couple of occasions.

          Condemning gay people in the name of the Lord is more of a sin than simply being gay and wanting to be happy. Don’t pretend you are holier tha thou.

          • Y-G

            Gays condemn themselves… That’s why we are trying to convert them. To go against God’s comand is more of a sin than simply acepting what you believe is ok. Don’t pretend you are holier than us.

            And pffff changed it in 1946???????? WOW….

          • Paul Hiett

            Why can you just adopt a live and let live strategy on life? Not everyone believes what you believe, and many don’t want to hear your evangelizing anymore.

            Keep it in your homes and churches and out of the rest of our lives.

          • Y-G

            Why can you just adopt a live and let live strategy on life? Not everyone believes what you believe, and many don’t want to hear you telling them not to do evangelizing.

            Keep it in your home and your gaybar and out of the rest of our lives.

          • Brian_Joness

            Yeah 1946. Funny how people keep re interpreting the Bible based on modern day biases. It will be re interpreted again to say that all the anti-gay references were condemning rape, which was a common thing back then. Obviously lust, promiscuity, and prostitution are bad for both gays and heterosexuals. Monogamy should be promoted through marriage.

            Don’t claim to be helping gay people by persecuting them. As God said about David and Jonathan, they do no wrong in the eyes of God. You choose to interpret the Bible any way you want but don’t pretend to have the only True interpretation. You don’t speak for God.

          • John_33

            Jesus did condemn homosexuality.

        • Melissa Simpson

          Michael, you are right brother in Christ. Jesus is the way, the truth and the light. Keep your faith and knowing of what is sinful and knowing we must all not sin. God is with us.

        • Phipps Mike

          “I am doing that now by casting a light on their errant ways with the hope that there will be repentance”

          wrong!!! that is appointing yourself as the “enforcer” of Gods will against others. You dont get to do that.

      • Brian_Joness

        I like Jesus’s version better.

        • Michael Stevens

          yeah, its easy when you dont think of Him as God. And as the one who will sit in Judgment over every human being that ever has and will ever, live. He came the first time to show the need for a Savior because man cannot save himself. Next time He comes it will be as Judge of all. You better make sure you like Jesus’ version of that better or you may be in for an indescribably horrible time and the realization of a colossal mistake.

        • worthywalking

          Better than what?

        • worthywalking

          What version is that?

    • Y-G

      You are judgeing them .-.

  • Nick_from_Detroit

    UPDATE: Memories Pizza, the Indiana pizza place that has been mercilessly attacked by homo-fascists has received OVER $540,000!!!!
    Thanks, homo-fascists!
    http://www.gofundme.com/memoriespizza

    • Joyce

      Yes it was a good publicity stunt and it paid off handsomely.

      • Nick_from_Detroit

        I’d love to take credit, but, it wasn’t my idea, sorry.
        You guys are just mad because you know that your fellow leftwingers would never do that for you. E.g., Sandra Fluke. She couldn’t even get elected to the CA. state senate!

        • MisterPine

          Still gloating and mocking “homo-fascists,” eh Nick? What a stellar Christian. Bet Jesus would be proud.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            UPDATE: Memories Pizza, the Indiana pizza place that has been mercilessly attacked by homo-fascists has received OVER $750,000!!!!

          • MisterPine

            Do you feel good about this, Nick from Detroit? Is it surprising to you that faith-based hatred should have so many people willing to contribute? Is this any different than Chick-Fil-A?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            It’s not hatred, Mr. Pine. It’s loving compassion for these poor pizza entrepreneurs. And, Chick-Fil-A is a great company, by the way. Power to the people!

          • MisterPine

            Oh yes, those poor oppressed pizzeria owners who are refusing to serve people who have absolutely no control over whom they are attracted to and love. Give your head a shake, Nick from Detroit. Those poor soon-to-be millionaires who owe their fortune to Bronze Age bigotry.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            They have no control over whom they love, Mr. Pine? Are they dogs in heat? Are we for that matter? No. It is another thing that separates us from the beasts.
            And, get your facts straight. They only refused to cater a SS counterfeit so-called “marriage” ceremony.

          • MisterPine

            Did YOU have any control over whom YOU fell in love with, Nick from Detroit? What if you had discovered one day that your attractions could only be to the same gender? Would you have killed yourself (as many gay people do)? Would you have sought out “reparative therapy” (which is a sham and does not work)? Would you have adopted a loveless life? Or would you have simply found someone who makes you happy?I have everything perfectly straight fact-wise. They are Christian bigots who denied service to a perfectly legal SS marriage

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            No, Mr. Pine, you are confusing love with lust, I’m afraid. Deviant lustful desires have nothing to do with love.
            Plus, you do not have the facts right. It was a hypothetical. They didn’t deny anyone anything. Do you know anyone who’s had pizza at their wedding? Real or counterfeit?

          • Paul Hiett

            Pretty easy to sit there and judge others when you have no clue what it’s like from their point of view.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I neither judge, nor condemn, people, Mr. Hiett. That is God’s domain, not mine.
            I judge acts as moral or immoral, good or sinful, licit or illicit, based on my worldview. Do you see the difference?

          • Paul Hiett

            You judge based on your Bible, nothing more.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            So?

          • MisterPine

            No, Nick from Detroit, I’m not confusing anything. You are doing that. I wonder how you’d feel if someone looked at your relationship with your wife, or lover, or partner, whatever the came may be, and dismissed it as nothing more than lust. No one would have the arrogance to tell you that there was no love involved, and yet you see absolutely no problem telling millions of gay couples that they don’t actually love each other, that it’s lust. I think that’s arrogant and offensive in the extreme, and who are you to tell people you have never met that they don’t know what love is?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Well, Mr. Pine, since, as a Catholic, I try not to be ruled by my feelings or passions; I would welcome someone who warned me of my disordered desires, so that I would not become a slave to them and ruled by them.
            Love means more than the casual, throw-away culture uses it in today’s world.

          • MisterPine

            And why do you call them “disordered desires”? Answer: Because your faith tells you to. There is no other reason, and there is certainly no GOOD reason.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Wrong, because they are disordered, Mr. Pine. Even the American Psychiatric Association called it a mental disorder and deviant up until 1973, when they were bullied to change it by the homosexual fascistic lobby.

          • MisterPine

            That is a tired old lie, the APA declassified homosexuality as an illness because of new facts, data and information, As if you could lobby a mental health organization merely because you don’t like their findings.

            And even if you want to take tha APA out of the picture, practically every single other organization agrees with them.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            No, Mr. Pine, the tired old lie is that it never happened. Unfortunately, for you, it was recorded in the pages of Newsweek, in their August 23rd , 1971, issue:
            “But even more than the government, it is the psychiatrists who have experienced the full rage of the homosexual activists. Over the past two years, gay-lib organizations have repeatedly disrupted medical meetings, and three months ago—in the movements most aggressive demonstration so far—a group of 30 militants broke into a meeting of the American Psychiatric Association in Washington, where they turned the staid proceedings into near chaos for twenty minutes. ‘We are here to denounce your authority to call us sick or mentally disordered,’ shouted the group’s leader, Dr. Franklin Kameny, while the 2,000 shocked psychiatrists looked on in disbelief. ‘For us, as homosexuals, your profession is the enemy incarnate. We demand that psychiatrists treat us as human beings, not as patients to be cured!’”

          • MisterPine

            Wrong. Utterly debunked myth. I don’t deny that there may have been angry militant homosexuals in 1971 that broke in. God knows there are militant people in all groups and militant angry gay people are still around. But there is absolutely no way the APA changed their stance on it BECAUSE some people broke in. Bodies of medical science cannot be “lobbied”. No one “bends to pressure” in situations like that, they’re going to print what their medical and scientific findings are. People have been making this absurd claim for years and it has no basis in fact. In fact, I think you’d do well to disclose the site you got that information from above (not to me, because I know where you got it from, but to others reading this). It’s hardly what I’d call a non-biased site.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            It’s not debunked, it’s historical fact. Your faith in fallible men, like the A.P.A., is wrongheaded. They’re not above intimidation or bullying.
            That quote from Newsweak is all over the internet, Mr. Pine. Are you claiming it’s fake?

          • MisterPine

            No, it’s utter crapola and sour grapes, Nick from Detroit. The quote from Newsweek only says that gays protested. It doesn’t say that the APA “gave in” and it’s completely ludicrous to think you could lobby a medical organization merely because you didn’t like its findings. And as I have already pointed out, the APA is only one of many who are telling the world that homosexuality is a normal variation in human sexuality. It is not a disease, requires no cure, and occurs throughout the animal kingdom. You’ve been sold a line from bigots and hatemongers, and you are NOT going to find a single source anywhere from the APA where they acknowledge that they made concessions to any groups.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I have my source that says the A.P.A. was bullied. Just two years before they changed their D.S.M. What? Do you think the homosexual assaults were somehow lessened in those two years? May a sell you a bridge in Brooklyn?
            It happened. Deal with it, okay?

          • MisterPine

            Deal with something you imagined? No, Nick from Detroit, I am not going to do that. It you seriously believe that an organization like the APA can cave to bullying by anyone you are very naive.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I didn’t imagine it, Mr. Pine. Newsweek informed me of it:
            “Over the past two years, gay-lib organizations have repeatedly disrupted medical meetings […] ‘We are here to denounce your authority to call us sick or mentally disordered,’ shouted the group’s leader, Dr. Franklin Kameny, while the 2,000 shocked psychiatrists looked on in disbelief. […] ‘We demand that psychiatrists treat us as human beings, not as patients to be cured!’””
            Two years later, the A.P.A. changed it’s D.S.M.

            Continue to stick your head in the sand, keep your mind closed, and ignore facts, at your own risk.

          • MisterPine

            You’re simply making the same point as before, Nick from Detroit, with the same logical problem. Post from the Newsweek article all you want, I KNOW that angry people disrupted meetings, but that had nothing to do with the APA changing its DSM.

            It would be like me saying to you, “My father was born in 1937. Two years later, war broke out.” My father’s birth had nothing to do with the war breaking out. You are using your usual dishonest tactics to draw an unfair and baseless conclusion.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I made a very logical conclusion, Mr. Pine. Based on the fact that “gay-lib” groups admitted that they were targeting the A.P.A. with sustained attacks for years. Of course, the A.P.A. won’t admit they caved-in to the pressure. All evidence to the contrary says otherwise.
            Your closed-mindedness only contributes to your ignorance.

          • MisterPine

            There is precisely nothing logical about it, Nick from Detroit. Two years? Two full years elapsed, and you want gay lobbyists to take the blame for it? What happened is that new findings, new evidence and new information came to light, as evidenced by practically every other mental health organization out there including the Americal Psychiatric Association. Even if you want to insist that a few lobbyists made one group cave in, and I certainly think that’s a stretch, it doesn’t account for the myriad of others. You are dreaming, and you should concede that you have lost to science on this matter.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Well, Mr. Pine, if you count the two years they had already been targeting psychiatrists for attack, it would be four years of bullying and abuse by those early homo-fascists. They are using the same tactics today. Somethings never change!

            Besides, Even lesbians & homosexuals are denouncing your side, Mr. Pine:
            “My girlfriend and I are small business owners, and we think there is a difference between operating in a public market space and then attaching the name of your business to a private event,” Hoffman said in a radio interview. “Like, if we were asked to set up at an anti-gay marriage rally, I mean, we would have to decline.”

            Hoffman said the “horrible, hate-filled attacks” against the pizzeria and its Christian owners did not reflect the gay community that she has come to know and love.

            “The gay community that we know knows full well what it’s like to be condemned for doing nothing but living your life according to your beliefs,” she added. “We know so many gay individuals that fully support the freedom of living your life according to your beliefs and feel that freedom extends to everyone, even the people that we don’t agree with.”

            Hoffman’s donation with her accompanying message brought Memories co-owner Crystal O’Connor to tears.

            Another gay man, Buz Smith, sent in a $250 donation to the Memories campaign as well, accusing the Democratic leadership of hijacking the gay community and promoting religious intolerance. Other members of the gay community wrote in applauding Hoffman’s gesture and backing up her stance.

            Are these people also “christofascists”? Why can they see the truth and you can’t, Mr. Pine?

            Source: http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/04/07/gay-woman-apologizes-to-christian-owned-indiana-pizzeria-sends-donation/

  • Alex Helms

    Boooo hooooo waaaa waaa waaaa.. Cry Cry Cry.

  • Joyce

    Poor Christians. No longer allowed by law to be bigots. Score one for the good guys. I know this will come as a shock to you, but we are governed by the Constitution and not the Bible. It allows you to believe and worship how you please. It does not allow you to discriminate against your fellow citizens because of who they are. Why must we always drag you kicking and screaming into the future? I have no problem if your business doesn’t want to provide services for any specific group, I just wish you were mandated to put a sign up outside your store or in the front window that states who you won’t serve. That is all the legal protection you need. I think you should voluntarily do it. You won’t, because above all, you are cowards. Stand up for your beliefs yourselves. Put the sign up and stop trying to legislate your bigotry. One more thing, you’d get a lot more respect from non Christians, if you’d fight for the things that were important to your Savior. You know, the sick, the poor and the downtrodden. I don’t recall him even mentioning homosexuality.

    • Michael Stevens

      No respect will come from “your kind” until we submit to total 100% acceptance of your perversion. And if we do that then we face the same judgment you will face on judgment day for denying God (Romans 1). As Joshua said: “choose you this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord!”

      • Paul Hiett

        And that’s all fine and good that you have that opinion. But, opinions should never be used to justify the hate and intolerance you folks have for homosexuals.

        • Michael Stevens

          Paul you keep mentioning hate and intolerance, as if Christians are the only people who hate and are intolerant. I could take time – but wont since it would take lots of time – to show real stories of hate from militant homosexuals and hate from other ethnicites. Oh yes plenty out there for sure. ON BOTH SIDES…but here is difference…I have been in Christian churches for almost 50 years and NEVER ONCE did I see anyone in one those churchs, hurt, kill, or violently attack a homosexual, nor advocate doing so. So where is this imaginary “hate and intolerance” coming from? From differences of opinions? I mean seriously if you want to continue homosexual practices no one is stopping you.
          But just because we believe the sanctity of marriage doesnt mean we hate you. I have tried hard here to preach to you the gospel of salvation because “that” is the love of a Christian, to point the way to Christ. I cant do that hating you. If you will only yield your spirit to the Lord and here Him knocking on your heart-door…he promises if you open He will come in and you can be forgiven, redeemed and freed from the curse of eternal hell fire.
          I will say no more on this topic, but I will pray for you that you may be saved before your life is over and that one day we can meet in heaven as brothers in Jesus.  Please feel free to contact me should you feel the need to know more about the best friend you can ever have…Jesus Christ, Lord and Savior.
          Peace to you.

          Sent from my Galaxy S®III

          ——– Original message ——–From: Disqus Date:04/03/2015 1:53 PM (GMT-05:00) To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Comment on Christians Disappointed as Indiana Governor Signs Clarification to Religious Freedom Act Settings

          A new comment was posted on Christian News Network

          Paul Hiett

          And that’s all fine and good that you have that opinion. But, opinions should never be used to justify the hate and intolerance you folks have for homosexuals. 1:53 p.m., Friday April 3 | Other comments by Paul Hiett

          Reply to Paul Hiett

          Paul Hiett’s comment is in reply to Michael Stevens:

          No respect will come from “your kind” until we submit to total 100% acceptance of your perversion. And if we do that then we face … Read more
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          • Paul Hiett

            So, if YOU didn’t see it happen, it hasn’t happened?

            Have you tried using Google?

  • LeftleaningTx

    Yes I bet they are VERY disappointed because they are used to having their way in denigrating and dehumanizing gay people.
    Christians are VERY upset that they have lost the battle on gay marriage and gay rights both legally and now socially as well.
    Clearly it just doesn’t pay to be bigoted towards gays anymore.

  • LeftleaningTx

    It has been for hundreds of years, and continues to be, the providence of government to bestow the legal vestige of a “business” upon individuals. No person(s) has the right to confer the legal status of a business upon themselves; only government and its associated laws can establish a business entity. When an individual or a group of individuals solicit government to obtain government’s permission to operate a business, apply for a business license, they agree to operate the business in accordance with the laws of government. Thus individuals preclude themselves from exerting individual right because they have consented to the laws of government.

    • uzza

      Spot on. I’ve been trying for weeks to get christians to concede this point. Good luck.

  • LeftleaningTx

    By theat nature of the post i see here clearly there are many decent Christians out there that opposed this law too, not just the rabid left that the rabid right seems to think is the problem
    I want to thank each and every one of your decent non judgemental Christians out there for finding a way to accept ALL of your fellow man

  • sunflower

    Religious people will absolutely win this battle in the end no matter
    what happens in legislation…if bullied, threatened lawsuit, and forced
    to participate in an event which goes against their religious
    conscience, and they have kindly made this known to the customer, but the customer insists on bullying/threatening them, they simply need to deliver service of terrible quality.
    LGBT bully patrons will be hugely disappointed at their blessed event
    and others like them will refrain from using those same services.
    Problem solved! Religious people may eventually be forced to go against
    their religious beliefs by these bullies, but they can’t be forced to
    deliver quality!!!

    • Paul Hiett

      So let’s say that you are getting married. You hire a photographer, and you pay the agreed upon amount that the photographer advertises.

      When you get your pics back, they’re grainy, out of focus, and flat out terrible.

      As a paying customer, what would you then do?

      • sunflower

        Exactly my point…not sure why the LGBT client would want to take that risk knowing the business’s religious convictions were deeply against such events, unless to prove a brutal point, in which case it would serve him/her right.

        • Paul Hiett

          You didn’t answer my question at all. What would you then do if the service you paid for wasn’t what you paid for?

          • sunflower

            Not sure you could do anything but live with the substandard service, the consequence of your bullying.

          • Paul Hiett

            So you would just sit back, do nothing, and just accept that crappy service is a part of doing business?

          • sunflower

            Yep…if that’s our only defense.

          • sunflower

            Oops…you’re probably referring to the client…what could they do…report you to the BBB? or post some unkind reviews? That’s about it…

          • Paul Hiett

            So…you wouldn’t sue them?

          • sunflower

            What do you think?

          • Paul Hiett

            If I paid a photographer a few thousand dollars for my wedding and he returned crappy, out of focus pics, you can bet your sweet hiney I’d be suing the crap out of him. Any sane person would.

          • sunflower

            Hmmm…well we’d have to do a good enough job to not get sued, but a poor enough job to make our point. In any event, I can’t see that the LGBT client would want services from that business in the first place, knowing the feelings of the business. It would be risky.

          • Paul Hiett

            I don’t think you quite get it. As a business owner, if you put out crappy products/services, you can and WILL get sued, for a lot more money than what you’re thinking. Furthermore, if it came out that you did this on purpose because you were discriminating, the amount of money awarded in damages would probably force you to close your store.

            Think about it.

          • sunflower

            You’re probably right…I’m not a business owner but have many times received poor services throughout my life and have just lived with it. I’m not one to sue but these the bullying LGBT people probably would. Thanks for the lesson.

          • Paul Hiett

            It has nothing to do with “bullying LGBT people”. This is something NO ONE would tolerate, straight or gay.

            Maybe you should try sticking up for yourself when you do get bad service. i would assume you work for your money. Isn’t it worth it to demand that you get what you pay for with your money you worked hard for?

          • sunflower

            The TOPIC of this conversation is the LGBT people bullying the Christians into participating in and servicing events which go against their religious conscience. I am not referring to other situations. I usually give people the benefit of the doubt when they provide services, am easy going, and not demanding. However, I do stick up for myself when necessary. It’s been nice chatting.

          • Paul Hiett

            You’re the one who brought up providing crappy service for them. I simply pointed out the problems with your idea.

          • sunflower

            Well perhaps the answer then is to do something “crappy” that is undetectable…a little something “extra” in the cake batter may do the trick.

          • Paul Hiett

            So you consider yourself a Christian? Is that how you treat other human beings?

          • l642039

            It’s the “christian” way. Their morals are reprehensible.

          • sunflower

            I would never do that but there are people that would…they will fight back any way they can…not everyone is a perfect Christian…the real question here is WHY would LGBT people demand a business go against their religious beliefs by engaging in what they would consider an “immoral” event??? To bully!!! Is that Christian? or are Christians held to a higher standard? So unfair and makes no sense!!!! It seems like MUTUAL RESPECT is the key!!!

          • RWH

            The Food and Drug people don’t look highly on this. If they can prove that someone does something crappy to a cake, the baker in question should plan on spending some quality time in prison baking cakes. If a person gets sick, that individual may very well sue the pants off the baker. This is very serious stuff.,

          • Paul Hiett

            I’m just stunned that a “Christian” would suggest something like that.

          • sunflower

            It wouldn’t have to be something that made them sick or that could even be detected. I would never do this but there are people that would. I just don’t understand why a LGBT person would want to hire someone who’s religious conscience would be deeply offended by participating in their event, unless it was to bully a religious person. Religious people won’t just take it…they will fight it any way they can…some by sacrificing their business and financial security, others by adding a little something distasteful to the mix. It seems that mutual respect is the answer rather than force.

  • MisterPine

    Funny how the Christians LOVED this law until now. “No, you can’t discriminate against homosexuals.”
    Christians: “Oh well what fun is THAT?”

  • SFBruce

    The only reason this law was introduced was to placate anti-gay Republicans. And this is proven by the fact that many of the supporters of the original law now claim it’s not worth the paper it’s written on. I’m a musician and have played for many weddings, and I can honestly say it never occurred to me that my participation in those weddings amounted to any kind of endorsement or approval. I didn’t even know the vast majority of them.

  • Nick_from_Detroit

    UPDATE: Memories Pizza, the Indiana pizza place that has been mercilessly attacked by homo-fascists has received OVER $750,000!!!!
    Thanks, homo-fascists!

    http://www.gofundme.com/memoriespizza

  • webshade

    There is really no point in passing this law then. It is useless to religious liberty of conscience!

  • Reason2012

    The issue has been falsely phrased as “states have the right to ban same-gender marriage” – this assumes there’s such a thing as “same – gender marriage to begin with”, which there is not.

    The issue is does the state have the right to re-define religious institutions and pass laws to establish this new religious institution, which would in effect be passing laws to establish a new state religion (violation of the establishment clause of the First Amendment), which in turn would criminalize Christian belief about marriage (another violation of the First Amendment) – you are fined up to $150,000 if you do not violate YOUR Christian beliefs and use your business to support sinful acts.

    And on both counts, states do not have any right to do any such thing – we’re protected from such judicial religious tyranny by the Constitution of the United States of America.

    Not to mention that every single man already has the same right as every other man: to marry one woman. And every single woman already has the same right as every single woman: to marry one man. So the claim anyone’s being denied “equal rights” is false.

    Marriage was defined by God at the beginning. Jesus pointed out that marriage is between one man and one woman:

    Matthew 19:4-6 “And he [Jesus] answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, (5) And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? (6) Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.”

    Jesus even points out that for the cause of making them male and female, this is why male will leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife.

    Mark 10:5-7 “And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. (6) But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. (7) For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;”

    Jesus said God made them male and female – not male and male – not female and female.

    Jesus said man shall leave father and mother, not father and father, not mother and mother.

    Jesus said man shall cleave to his wife, not to his husband, not to her wife.

    Not to mention Jesus is God, so the entire Word of God is the Words of Christ. As Jesus is The Word.

    John 1:1-3 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (2) The same was in the beginning with God. (3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”

    John 1:14 “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

    The Lord rebukes us for our attempts to destroy what He defined as one man and one woman.

    As if that’s not enough,

    (1) Marriage is a religious institution that has existed since the beginning of time – government never defined it and our government cannot start re-defining it now.

    (2) The government is violating the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America by REDEFINING religious institutions then passing laws to establish this new state religion where anyone who does not adhere to this new state religion by violating their own religious beliefs is condemned as a criminal: sued and fined up to $150,000 dollars.

    (3) Marriage is for the possibility of procreation for the continuance of society. A same-gender marriage is, by design, never capable of such a thing.

    (4) Any pro-creation should be within a marriage – same-gender ‘marriages’ are forced to go outside the ‘marriage” 100% of the time by design.

    (5) Kids have the right to be raised by their biological mother and father – same-gender marriages legally deny them this right 100% of the time, by design.

    (6) Kids have the right to be raised by a mother and a father, not forced into setups that are dysfunctional 100% of the time: two or more fathers and no mother, or two or more mothers and no father. Same-gender marriages legally deny kids this right 100% of the time, by design.

    (7) Every single person alive has one biological mother and one biological father. Nature alone re-iterates what marriage is – that this is what a family is.

    (8) A black man who has no problem baking cakes for white people cannot be forced to bake cakes for the ACT of a “whites are supreme” meeting and so on. LIkewise a Christian who has no problem baking cakes for those who currently profess homosexuality cannot be forced to bake a cake for the ACT of a same-gender wedding.

  • Parque_Hundido

    This is so awesome. These right wing christofascists thought they could get away with passing this right-to-discriminate law. The blowback was so fast and furious that I’m guessing they won’t try a stunt like this every again.

    It’s good to see these religious bigots put in their place.

  • Nick_from_Detroit

    UPDATE: Memories Pizza, the Indiana pizza place that has been mercilessly attacked by homo-fascists has received OVER $840,000!!!!
    Thanks, homo-fascists!

    • Parque_Hundido

      Hooray! That’s $840,000 that can go toward helping these poor, misguided souls get an education and fix their teeth. And it’s $840,000 that WON”T BE GOING TO SUPPORT RIGHT WING NUTJOBS IN THE ELECTIONS!

      Hooray! Thank you bigot-Americans for giving these people money!

      • Nick_from_Detroit

        Umm…Parque? What is going to stop them from giving to Ted Cruz’s super-pac? Or, any other GOP candidates’?
        Epic fail!

        • Paul Hiett

          They can give Cruz a billion dollars and he still wouldn’t come close to the White House.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            And that won’t change the fact that over 29,000 people gave those pizza shop owners over $840,000, will it Mr. Hiett?
            All thanks to all of those nasty, leftwing bigots who hate Christians, and anybody else who disagrees with them.
            Thanks, lefty bigots!

          • Paul Hiett

            Yep, and if they were real CHristians, they’d be donating that money to charity.

            Think they will?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Sorry, Mr. Hiett, I’m not familiar with the command that all monetary gifts must go to charity. It’s their money, they can do whatever they want with it.
            Again, you prove that you’re for tyranny, while I’m for liberty.

          • Parque_Hundido

            Which is ironic, given that so many of you are in lock up for molesting children. LOL

        • Parque_Hundido

          That’s not going to happen. You’ve seen these two snaggle-tooth disasters. My best guess is that they’ll blow it all on lottery tickets.

          Even more likely: the money that these idiots pledged won’t actually come through.

          You people aren’t exactly the brightest bulbs on the porch.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Such a sad, hateful, petty person you are, Parque. I have such pity for you, and all who suffer from your affliction. You must be in such pain.
            I pray, on this Good Friday, that you someday see the Light of our Lord, Christ Jesus. May you, and your family, have a blessed Easter.

          • Parque_Hundido

            I hope they keep you locked up and far away from children this holiday. I know how you struggle with that.

  • Parque_Hundido

    This is God’s will: God does not want laws that allow right wing bigots to discriminate. God wants gay people to have full equality.

    Praise be!

  • mknox

    What religious organizations other than pacs, such as Family Research Council, supported the bill? Did the Catholic diocese of Indianapolis, the Methodist Church, Mormon Church, etc, and non-Christian religious groups such as Muslims, Jews and Buddhists support the bill. Just curious and couldn’t find any information.

  • Phipps Mike

    ““If a Christian vendor can be forced to collaborate with an unmitigated
    evil, like assisting with a homosexual marriage, then the law and
    religious freedom has no meaning,” Red State commented.”
    A business place is NOT a place to practice religion. It is there to do BUSINESS ONLY. Practicing religion is to be done in a religious venue. End of story.

    • Nick_from_Detroit

      So says the church of Phipps Mike.
      Freedom-loving Americans disagree.

      • Phipps Mike

        first, thanks for the laugh. A Church named after me? hahahaha!!!

        you don’t have freedom when you are acting as a business. You have to go by the rules of business. (Business is regulated)

        • Nick_from_Detroit

          Rules and freedom are not antithetical, Phipps Mike.
          There have to be rules against fraud & theft, as well as rules for the public safety, of course.
          But, the right of both parties to freely enter into all contracts, overrides all other considerations.

          • Phipps Mike

            actually the rules are those things you dont have the FREEDOM to break.
            The thing here is that a “business” is not a PERSONAL entity acting in its own behalf. Its an entity that is acting in the PUBLICS behalf. if you cater to the public…ALL are welcome.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Fortunately, your odd opinions have no basis in well-establish law. The Constitution is above these so-called “public accommodation” & “discrimination” laws.

          • Phipps Mike

            my opinion is not odd in the slightest. It happens to be a very valid
            issue. You can see what i mean if you read the following article: http://ivn.us/2015/03/27/busin
            You know that a landlord nor a store owner cannot discriminate against somebody because of their race, national origin, etc…
            Although
            same partner preference isn’t a “protected” class. I am sure it will be
            addressed in the not too distant future. Being attracted to your own
            type is NOT a choice. Attraction is NATURAL. What a person does in their
            OWN BEDROOM is the biggest freedom we are all supposed to have. You
            tout freedom, how about bedroom freedom.

  • thoughtsfromflorida

    Here’s a sign businesses can put in their window:

    “Dear Valued Patrons.

    Due to my sincerely held religious beliefs, and in light of the RFRA, recently signed by our Dear Leader Pence, I will no longer doing business with the following persons; nor permitting them in my establishment:

    1. Divorcees. Matthew 19:9: “And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery.”

    2. Anyone who has ever read their horoscope or called a psychic hotline. Leviticus 20:6: “As for the person who turns to mediums and to spiritists, to play the harlot after them, I will also set My face against that person and will cut him off from among his people.”

    3. Anyone with a tattoo. Leviticus 19:28 “You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the Lord.”

    4. Anyone born illegitimately. Also, anyone who, back to ten generations, is descended from someone born illegitimately. If you can not PROVE, using appropriate church sources, that ten generations of your family were born in wedlock, I will have to err on the side of caution and not serve you. Deuteronomy 23:2 “No one of illegitimate birth shall enter the assembly of the LORD; none of his descendants, even to the tenth generation, shall enter the assembly of the LORD.

    5. Anyone who makes a practice of praying aloud, or in public. Matthew 6:5-6 “When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.”

    6. Any woman with braided hair or gold jewelry. Just to be on the safe side, NO jewelry at all. 1 Timothy 2:9 “Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments.”

    7. Any man who has ever, by accident or not, had his genitals damaged. (Current interpretation of this scripture is under debate, so just to be safe, if you’ve had a vasectomy, or testicular cancer, I can’t serve you. I apologize for the inconvenience but I am worried for my soul.) Deuteronomy 23:1 “A man whose testicles are crushed or whose penis is cut off may never join the assembly of the Lord.”

    8. Please don’t bring your kids in if they have a bowl cut. Leviticus 19:27 reads “You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard.”

    For those of you complaining that some of these scriptures are from the Old Testament, and that Jesus came to redeem us from these laws, I refer you to Matthew 5:17-19, where Our Savior himself says: “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18″For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19″Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven”

    Again, I am sorry for the inconvenience. It’s nothing personal, “love the sinner but hate the sin,” and all, but I simply can’t serve anyone who would blatantly disregard God’s sacred law in such a fashion.

    • Nick_from_Detroit

      Perhaps, TfF, you should spend some time and learn what Christians actually believe, eh? And, maybe, you could stop horribly wrenching verses of Scripture out of context, okay? (From which hack New Atheist site did you get that list, by the way?)

      If you do that, you might just learn that Christians believe “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (cf. Rom.3:23). That the Church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints. That we are called to love the sinner and hate the sin, in imitation of Christ.

      Then, you might start to see that these Christian business owners and supporters of the first RFRA law did not want to determine how sinful a person was before providing their service/product; they wanted the freedom and liberty to refuse to be participants of a ceremony that mocks God and their religion, thus, making them commit sin in their eyes. They want the same freedom of conscience rights that doctors have, who do not wish to provide abortion or euthanasia services.
      Then, maybe, you’ll start to see it’s not about putting a scarlet “A” on people, it’s about forced participation in something that people of good conscience consider sinful and evil.

      • thoughtsfromflorida

        “Perhaps, TfF, you should spend some time and learn what Christians actuallybelieve, eh? ”

        Oh. That’s a great idea! Who should I speak to? A Southern Baptist? Methodist? Baptist? Church of Christ Scientist? Amish? Mennonite? Mormon? Catholic? There are so many Christian religions to pick from – which is the “true” Christian religion so that I’ll know what “real” Christians believe?

        “Then, you might start to see that these Christian business owners and supporters of the first RFRA law did not want to determine how sinful a person was before providing their service/product; they wanted the freedom and liberty to refuse to be participants of a ceremony that mocks God and their religion, thus, making them commit sin in their eyes.”

        Oh really? So then these businesses, when asked to provide a service for a male/female wedding where inquiring if either of the couple had been divorced for reasons other than adultery, and then refusing if so?

        And, when asked to provide a service for a baby shower, were inquiring whether the mother-to-be was married, and refusing if not?

        And, when asked to provide services for an engagement party, were asking if the couple were having sexual relations, and then refusing if so?

        And, walking away from any wedding that didn’t involve a Christian ceremony being blessed by the Christian god?

        All of those would involve being a participant a celebration of something that “sinful and evil”. So, surely, to avoid being hypocrites, business owners are asking those questions and taking those actions, yes?

        Please, spare me hypocritical religious conscience argument.

        • Nick_from_Detroit

          Who should I speak to?

          You could start with us Catholics, if you’d like.

          All of those would involve being a participant a celebration of something that “sinful and evil”.

          No, they would not. You’re confused. Obviously.
          You’re confusing the sins of an individual with public mockery of a Christian institution, i.e., Holy Matrimony. The baker, photographer, etc., are not the priest/pastor. Why do you expect them to do their jobs?

          There is nothing hypocritical about the religious conscience argument. Is the medical conscience argument also hypocritical?

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Catholics? But the Evangelicals said Catholics were not really Christians. Are they wrong?

            So Catholics don’t believe the part of the Bible that says that if a person gets divorced for reasons other than adultery that person is living in sin? They don’t believe that having a baby out of wedlock is a sin? They don’t believe that sexual relations before marriage is a sin?

            Isn’t a celebration of a child’s birth that is being born out of wedlock a celebration of sexual relations outside of marriage?

            Isn’t celebrating a marriage where one of the people was divorced for reasons other than adultery, celebrating their living in sin?

            Isn’t celebrating the engagement of two people who are having sexual relations, celebrating that sin?

            Not everyone has a church service as a part of their wedding. Therefore, there is no “holy matrimony”. Do those weddings also make a mockery of “a Christian institution” and thus should be turned down?

            If marriage is a “Christian institution”, then a wedding involving any other religion would be a mockery of that and thus should be turned down as well, correct?

            “There is nothing hypocritical about the religious conscience argument.”

            If you aren’t applying it to all biblical sins, then yes, it is hypocritical.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Your reply is Exhibit A of why you need to learn what Christians really believe. Because you obviously have no clue! And, you know even less about the Sacred Scriptures.

            As I’ve already showed how Mr. Hiett, and myself, solved this problem, this is all moot. Since these bakers, photographers, florists, etc. have NEVER advertised that they provide products/services for SS counterfeit “marriage” ceremonies, they don’t have to. Problem solved.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Are you not able to answer my questions?

            They advertise that they do weddings. That’s all they need to advertise. Based upon your logic, they would be fine turning away an interracial couple since they don’t advertise that they do interracial weddings. Fail.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            They advertise that they do normal weddings. Not SS counterfeit “weddings.”
            So…yeah.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            I wasn’t aware of that. Please cite in their advertising where it says “We do wedding cakes for normal weddings”.

          • MisterPine

            If SS marriage is legal by law, then marriage is marriage, and your word “counterfeit” can’t be used. So there is no need to specify. Your defiance means nothing to the law.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            It will ALWAYS be counterfeit, Mr. Pine, because it is phony marriage. It is pretend. No matter what judges say. Even Californians knew better, and passed Prop 8, only to have a despotic judge strike it down. So much for leftwingers’ so-called love for “democracy,” huh?

          • MisterPine

            No, Nick from Detroit, once again you fail to understand that your faith has no bearing on what the law dictates, and no amount of stamping your feet until your face turns blue will change that simple fact. It is as real a marriage as any, and since marriage predates Biblical times, I don’t know where you get the arrogance to state that marriage is based on the Bible. You would do well to read up on history and stop painting things in crude terms of being left- or right-wing. You are simply wrong.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            My Faith, the Catholic faith, is the basis for the English common law tradition, Mr. Pine. You need to learn your history, I’m afraid.
            Who’s stomping their feet, by the way? Not me, I assure you.
            The marriage covenant was instituted by God when He made Eve for Adam. These phony, counterfeit so-called “marriages” are not real. They’re as real as when a little boy and girl play “house.”

          • MisterPine

            What you consider counterfeit, Nick from Detroit, has no bearing on anything that matters to the rest of us, i.e. the law or something otherwise binding. In the real world, which is the one I happen to live in, the marriages are as real as anything else, and the law recognizes that. Not stomping your feet over that? You could have fooled me.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            We’ll see how accommodating you are when SCOTUS upholds all 31 states’ bans on SS counterfeit so-called “marriages,” Mr. Pine.

            Did you see how those Christian pizza shop owners made over $840,000 thanks the generosity of the “gay community”? The florist from Washington, Barronelle Stutzman’s GoFundMe account is over $140,000! Care to prove that you’re open minded and not a hater, and give a few bucks, Mr. Pine? Here’s the link:
            http://www.gofundme.com/mz6zm4

          • MisterPine

            Boy, would I give anything to see the look on your face when that DOESN’T happen, Nick from Detroit. In Canada it’s been in place for ages and the country hasn’t been blown up by your vengeful God. No one even makes a peep about it.

            You are suggesting that to show that I’m not hateful, I should give a few of my dollars to some Christian hatemongers? How does that work? Aren’t there enough Christian supremacist bigots making them wealthy as it is? Can’t do enough to battle your imaginary “homo-fascists”, can you?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I would have given anything to have seen the look on your face, Mr. Pine, when the Hobby Lobby decision was announced. SS counterfeit so-called “marriage” will go the same way.

            Why don’t you listen to Courtney Hoffman, the lesbian small business owner who gave money to the pizza “Christian hatemongers,” as you call them? She apologized to the pizza shop owners on behalf of the haters, like you, Mr. Pine, who have viciously attacked them.

            “As a member of the gay community, I would like to apologize for the mean spirited attacks on you and your business,” Hoffman wrote in the note accompanying her donation.

            Hoffman said the “horrible, hate-filled attacks” against the pizzeria and its Christian owners did not reflect the gay community that she has come to know and love.

            “The gay community that we know knows full well what it’s like to be condemned for doing nothing but living your life according to your beliefs,” she added. “We know so many gay individuals that fully support the freedom of living your life according to your beliefs and feel that freedom extends to everyone, even the people that we don’t agree with.”
            http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/04/07/gay-woman-apologizes-to-christian-owned-indiana-pizzeria-sends-donation/

            Stop being a hater, Mr. Pine, and, learn to love everyone. Like me.

          • MisterPine

            Hobby Lobby cut their own throats, I know many people who refuse to set foot in their stores because of their horrible bigotry.

            You know as well as I do that SS marriage is not going away. All you need to do is look at how it’s being accepted around the world. And the reason for that is there’s no good reason to deny it. All protests to it come from religious standpoints, all of which are based on opinions and not on facts.

            Why would I listen to Courtney Hoffman when I can listen instead to millions of outraged LGBT people and their supporters who have been forced to put up with hateful garbage from Christian supremacists?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Well, I know more people who now only go to Hobby Lobby. They’re better than Micheal’s. And, what horrible bigotry? I think you should look up the word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

            All around the world? Oh, like northern Europe? Yeah, that’s the whole world to you, huh?

            You should listen to Miss Hoffman because she’s an homosexual. She’s shamed by people like you, Mr. Pine. Aren’t you embarrassed? She had to apologize to those poor pizza shop owners on behalf of your hatred. She called you a hater. So did Buz Smith, who gave $250 to them.

            Another gay man, Buz Smith, sent in a $250 donation to the Memories campaign as well, accusing the Democratic leadership of hijacking the gay community and promoting religious intolerance. Other members of the gay community wrote in applauding Hoffman’s gesture and backing up her stance.

            Why don’t also applaud Miss Hoffman’s gesture, Mr. Pine? You’ll feel better. And, while you’re at it, give Barronelle Stutzman’s GoFundMe account.

          • MisterPine

            That’s right Nick from Detroit, their horrible bigotry. Just like the horrible bigotry of Chick-Fil-A before them. I know what it looks like. It’s a Chick-Fil-A restaurant lined up around a block with bigots who wouldn’t otherwise eat there but are doing it to support their hatred of homosexuals.

            That’s right. All around the world. North America. Africa. Europe. Not a bad start.

            Oh yes those poor pizza shop owners who are now millionaires because they’ve been funded by crazy hateful bigots. Miss Hoffman has so much to apologize for. She and Buz Smith do NOT represent the vast majority of homosexuals outraged by this blatant human rights violation.

            Why don’t you set up a GoFundMe account and make a large donation to the Southern Poverty Law Center or the APA, Nick from Detroit?

          • The Last Trump

            Their “horrible bigotry”!?
            What horrible bigotry? Supporting traditional marriage?
            Egads! The shock of it all!
            “Boycott! Burn down their businesses! Harm their families!”
            Yeah. Horrible bigotry alright.

          • MisterPine

            Ah, dishonest wording yet again Trumpy. Silly man.
            Everyone supports “traditional marriage”, you buffoon. I know of no one who doesn’t, anywhere.
            The problem is with bigots who attack same gender marriage.
            Got it straight now?

          • The Last Trump

            Oh you mean like hate mongering fools who go out of their way to stalk Christian websites to attack anyone and everyone who does NOT support SSM? All the while, hypocritically chiding “live and let live!”?
            Yeah, I think I get it now!
            Thanks, MisterIntolerance! Bigotry and hypocrisy will forever be immortalized by your name. Nice job clearing up just how ugly that can be with your every post!
            (ahem…I think this is the part where you plug your hateful website. Again. In 3…2…1… 🙂

          • MisterPine
          • Parque_Hundido

            Bitter much?

          • The Last Trump

            Mostly sweet. You?

          • Parque_Hundido

            No, you smell like spoiled milk.

    • LIFE – A Gift Divine

      I think your starting to get the picture. Amazing!

      • thoughtsfromflorida

        I get it completely. It’s called hypocrisy.

        • LIFE – A Gift Divine

          In what sense are you speaking? Hypocrisy from who? Before you answer, make sure you apply your answer to yourself as well. The reason is someone calling someone else a hypocrite is likely someone that may be a hypocrite. An opinion on a subject isn’t the master of the subject. The subject stands on it’s own merits.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “Hypocrisy from who? ”

            Gosh, there are so many. But, as relates to this issue, those who suggest that provided a service for a same-gender marriage goes against their “Christian religious conscience”, but then do not also limit their offerings to other situations that violate the Christian belief system. That is hypocritical.

            I could also include those on the “right” who claim to be defenders of our constitution, but then want to restrict the rights of citizens based upon nothing more than their personal views.

            I could also include those who say it is wrong for the judiciary to rule on laws regarding same-gender marriage, because those laws were put into place by “the will of the people” (a hyperbolic statement) – yet completely support taking cases where a business owner is facing charges of violating anti-discrimination before the judiciary, and expecting a ruling in their favor, despite those anti-discrimination laws being put into place by “the will of the people”.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Let’s go back to the cake situation. If you owned the business and was asked to put a message from the KKK on the cake, would you do it? What if you had a worker that is black? Would you do it?

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            I would not, nor would I be required to. Political leanings are not a covered category.

            Was the baker asked to put: “Happy Gay Wedding” on the cake? Or was the baker asked to make exactly the same cake that is made for other weddings?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            We do not know that, or at least I can’t recall what was on the cake. This is the point. If you would not do that because of your morality, then how can you judge someone who won’t do it because of their morality? The point is that a business should have at least some rights based on their belief systems. That doesn’t mean to discriminate. The LGBT is very involved in political leanings. That is exactly what the agenda is all about. I’m not a Christian that say’s “because your gay I won’t serve you” That is not what is at issue here. It is the message that is being propagated by individuals that will purposely go to a Christian business or school in the name of freedom in order to push the agenda of acceptance by Christians in something that is against their beliefs. Just like you’re possible beliefs that the KKK are against your moral views.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “If you would not do that because of your morality, then how can you judge someone who won’t do it because of their morality? ”

            I’m not judging anyone. I respect the beliefs of other people.

            “The point is that a business should have at least some rights based on their belief systems.”

            They do – lots of them. They can choose what products to offer; they can choose what days they want to be closed. They can choose their hours. They can choose their dress code. They can set standards for service. They can decide what speech is not allowed in the workplace. Business owners have all kinds of rights.

            “That doesn’t mean to discriminate.”

            It does in many places in the US.

            “the agenda of acceptance by Christians in something that is against their beliefs.”

            Hogwash. No one can be forced to accept anything they don’t care to. People are free to accept or not accept anything they want. Because something is legal does not mean that a person must personally accept it as being right. Alcohol is legal, yet many people do not accept it as right. Divorce is legal, but many people do not accept it as right. Sexual relations outside of marriage are legal, but many people do not accept it as right.

            Interracial marriage is legal, but many people do not accept it as right. Regardless, a business is not allowed to turn away an interracial couple who want service for a wedding, regardless of the owner’s personal views on the matter. Do you think they should be able to, if the owner cites their “deeply held religious beliefs” on the matter?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            You misunderstood my statement. “the agenda of acceptance by Christians in something that is against their beliefs.” Completely out of context. “That doesn’t mean to discriminate.” I would state that there is some discrimination but not as a whole. “Interracial marriage is legal, but many people do not accept it as right.” That simply isn’t true anymore. Interracial marriage is accepted world wide.
            “Do you think they should be able to, if the owner cites their “deeply held religious beliefs” on the matter?” That is really not even an issue anymore. You can’t compare the two, because the LGBT have an agenda. I’ve already talked about that.
            I have good friends that are in interracial marriage, and my adopted son is bi-racial and is engaged to a beautiful young white woman. I have yet to see any issues of discrimination from anyone related to that issue. That is a very poor example.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “That simply isn’t true anymore. Interracial marriage is accepted world wide. ”

            Oh my. It’s sweet that you believe that to be true, but it is not. http://mic.com/articles/56753/13-of-americans-still-do-not-approve-of-interracial-marriage

            http://www.amren.com/news/2012/03/29-of-mississippi-republicans-still-think-interracial-marriage-should-be-illegal/

            “You can’t compare the two, because the LGBT have an agenda.”

            Yes, they do. Equal treatment under the law and protection from discrimination in housing, employment, and public accommodation, based upon sexuality. That is their agenda. Is it bad to have an agenda? You would prefer that they not be treated equally under the law and that it be legal to discriminate against them in housing, employment, and public accommodation?

            Do you think that the Lovings didn’t have an agenda? Do you think that blacks didn’t have an agenda? How about Jews who were discriminated against? Or the Irish? Or the rest of the groups that have been subject to discrimination throughout the history of our nation?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Yes they had agenda’s. They were successful, but it took men like Martin Luther King Jr. to die for his beliefs, and took men like Mendela who stood up against laws that were just wrong.

            You actually see that Interracial relationships are a problem in the world? Have you personally come into contact with a couple that has had the kind of brutal response being given to people like that pizza place?

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “took men like Mendela who stood up against laws that were just wrong.”

            The same is happening now regarding marriage laws and laws that allow for discrimination.

            “You actually see that Interracial relationships are a problem in the world?”

            In some places, including here in the US, yes, as the stats I gave you clearly show. Do you really think that racism is not an issue in the US? Have you not been keeping up with the news? Did you not hear about the fraternity singing songs about lynching and ni**ars?

            “had the kind of brutal response being given to people like that pizza place?”

            Would you please stop it with that. A couple of people made inappropriate threats. That is far from a “brutal response”. And yes, I have.

            Please understand that after having borne the brunt of multitudes of people, in public forums, suggesting that I am a blight on society, that I desire and abuse young children, that I will be the cause of the downfall of America, the family, and life as we know it, that I deserve to be killed, corralled, jailed, and vilified, I don’t have much sympathy for people who receive a couple of random threats.

            I would suggest that your son and his soon-to-be wife steer clear of the rural south.

          • StarkStealthArmor

            “Please understand that after having borne the brunt of multitudes of
            people, in public forums, on TV, preaching from the pulpit, testifying
            before courts, etc., suggesting that I am a blight on society, that I
            desire and abuse young children, that I will be the cause of the
            downfall of America, the family, and life as we know it, that I deserve
            to be killed, corralled, jailed, and vilified, I don’t have much
            sympathy for people who receive a couple of random threats.”

            First let me say sincerely I am so sorry for hearing that. I believe you to be a good man, and it bothers me that people are so crass. I do realize there is much work that must be done to stop those who belittle Black people. I have many friends that are very special to me, and they are black in color, but I don’t see color. I see the person that they are, and there are some wonderful people of color.

            I spoke with Paul concerning his daughter, and I want you to know and him that I care about him and his daughter. I’m against discrimination even those that are G or L. Jesus never stated that he doesn’t love everyone that he created. Jesus was a messenger of Love. If I disagree with the LGBT it is only in the sense of what I see as an agenda that proposes that their “lifestyle choices” supercede those of religion. As one man told me, Muslims do not accept G or L here in the U.S. and abroad. Christians are similar primarily because of what Paul said in the Bible. But when you put the context of his message about lifestyle choices, and right after that saying we are not judge’s I think it puts things into perspective. Some Christians won’t agree with me on that, but so be it.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            I was not speaking of being black.

            ” I see as an agenda that proposes that their “lifestyle choices” supercede those of religion.”

            Being gay is not a “lifestyle choice”, any more than being straight is a “lifestyle choice”, nor is this a situation of LGBT rights “superceding” religious rights. There is no “right” to operate a business outside of the law based upon religious belief.

          • StarkStealthArmor

            That is an opinion you share with many others. However I would disagree with you in certain situations. I think even someone that some that are gay would disagree with your statement. How would you conclude there is no “right” to operate a business outside the law based upon religious belief?

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            No such right exists in the constitution. In addition, over 50 years of legal rulings have shown that there is not a right, in the US, to operate a business outside of the parameters of the law regarding anti-discrimination laws, based upon religious beliefs.

          • StarkStealthArmor

            Can you say the same things about all states related to the Freedom of Religion Restoration Act in all states, and/or the Federal Government? An example being the Hobby Lobby case.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            I am unaware of any state RFRA that allows for discrimination in public accommodation in contravention of anti-discrimination laws. Have is clearly evident, such allowances are not particularly popular with the mainstream.

            The Hobby Lobby case had nothing to do with anti-discrimination laws. The Federal RFRA does not allow for discrimination in public accommodation in contravention of anti-discrimination laws.

          • StarkStealthArmor

            If Obamacare is a law, and Rowe vrs Wade is a law, and an exception was made to Hobby Lobby which the real issue was abortion, (the day after pill) how can that be so? They were an organization against abortion and being forced to pay for contraception and the day after pill.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            The ACA does not deal with anti-discrimination in public accommodation.

          • StarkStealthArmor

            Planned parenthood would disagree with you on that statement.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            How so?

          • StarkStealthArmor

            They like other abortion rights advocates felt that the decision was discrimination against the proponents of the abortion law.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            They are certainly free to feel that the policy is discriminatory, but it has nothing to do with public accommodation laws.

          • Deina

            “Interracial marriage is accepted world wide.”

            Where did you come up with that malarkey???

            Hate Crimes: 3 Men Prosecuted In California For Attack On Interracial Couple Because “A White Man Was With A Black Woman” | Bossip
            http://bossip.com/719413/hate-crimes-3-men-prosecuted-in-california-for-attack-on-interracial-couple-because-a-white-man-was-with-a-black-woman/
            Interracial Couple’s Home Set On Fire In Hate Crime | HelloBeautiful
            http://hellobeautiful.com/2013/09/13/racist-attack-on-interracial-couple/

            Interracial Couple Attacked While Strolling In Savannah [Video]
            http://www.inquisitr.com/318129/interracial-couple-attacked-while-strolling-in-savannah-video/

            Interracial Couple Attacked in LIC — NYMag
            http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/08/interracial-couple-attacked-in-lic.html

            Attack on interracial couple in Pasadena being investigated as hate
            http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/general-news/20141227/attack-on-interracial-couple-in-pasadena-being-investigated-as-hate-crime

            Georgia interracial couple victim of racist attack after celebrating the New Year (video) | AL.com
            http://blog.al.com/wire/2014/01/georgia_interracial_couple_vic.html

          • StarkStealthArmor

            That is the reason I suggested looking at the Black community at large. If you read the post about discrimination against the Black community it is still an issue that needs much work done. Since that is a part of Interracial relationships, I personally have not seen any problems of that type in the area where I live and haven’t seen those issues arise with my bi-racial son and his fiancee’. I suppose I could back up and say I’ve not seen it. That doesn’t mean based on your evidence that it can’t happen.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Your must realize, THAT is who people are. It’s the reality of the situation. If that is hypocrisy then we are all guilty just based on our opinions.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            No, that is who SOME people are. If you apply your beliefs across the board, then you are not a hypocrite. But when you cite something as a basis, but then apply it only in certain situations, you are a hypocrite.

            If violating biblical principles in the provision of service is an issue, then it should be an issue in all cases of biblical principles.

            If you profess to believe in liberty and equality, then you must be willing to provide to all – not just those with whom you agree.

            If you don’t believe that the judiciary should be ruling on matters that were decided by a vote – then that should apply to all matters on which citizens have voted – not just the ones you agree with.

  • Frank

    Pence turned away from Jesus.
    Christian churches might want to start considering starting a wedding ministry that has contracts with Christian florists and photographers. Then the florists and photographers change their business model concerning weddings to be similiar to the strictly business to business model that only does business with specific churches it has contracts with.

    • Ino Yamanaka

      That actually is a legitimate business idea.

      • Frank

        Yes. I used to work for a company that was strictly B2B (business to business). It cut out from having to deal with all the nonsense that comes with selling to the general public. Someone comes into the florist or photography shop wants a wedding they refer them to some local churches they have contracts with. This protects them and helps the churches promote Jesus and His marriage to His Bride – the Church.
        Maranatha.

    • Tristan A

      Great that he turned away from your interpretation of Jesus. There is a separation between church and state for good reasons. Otherwise we are back in the dark ages. Religion is a nice thing for the people that believe in it. Just like having a penis is nice to have, but you are not supposed to rub it in others peoples face…

  • Parque_Hundido

    This is the will of god. No one should have the ability, let alone the right to discriminate.

    To all of you who supported this law: God has sent you a message. Will you listen?

  • Jim Deferio

    WHY ARE HOMOSEXUALISTS SO VIOLENT, HATEFUL, AND INTOLERANT?

    Well, the short answer is this. When you become a slave to your feelings and engage in activities dictated by feelings that are unnatural and perverted and in your mind these FEELINGS are all there is to life, it can produce a large amount of pent up hostility to others, especially those who disagree with you.

    Can you imagine if you had a powerful feeling (a fetish and obsessive compulsion) to stick your tongue into every knot hole that you saw. Not only would this be unnatural and irrational but it would result in medical consequences detrimental to you and everyone you kissed.

    Now think that if in your desperate condition you were also deluded into thinking that you were born this way, had a civil right to act this way, and that those who disagree with you should be punished – you now have the present day homosexualist movement.

  • Jim Deferio

    Have you ever wondered why those identifying as “homosexual” are so unclean and are such nasty, obscene, and hateful people? Homosexuality is demonic to its core. You are seeing what a demon can do as it uses a human body as a puppet.
    I was talking to a medical worker who has cared for diseased homosexualists and they told me that it is a whole host of diseases that plague them, not just AIDS, and to be safe you may have to double-glove and double-gown. Many lesbians are afflicted with nasty respiratory infections. I’m not going to describe what these perverts do to each other but it isn’t clean or healthy. Don’t let them breath on you.

    • Tristan A

      What a bullshit you are preaching…. You are preaching hate. Last time i heard somebody describing people like this was Joseph Goebbels describing Jews. You are disgusting.

      • Jim Deferio

        No, Tristan, YOU are the hater. You hate God, you hate truth, and you are a hater of people.
        I personally know numerous EX-homosexuals and I have preached with EX-homosexuals on college campus and I have been used by God in helping people get freedom from the demonic state of homosexulaity. It is because I love God, truth and people, unlike you.

        The Bible says in Romans 12:9
        “Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.” (NewKJV)

        YOU, Tristan, are a hypocrite. Repent! Stop your hateful lifestyle.

        • Tristan A

          I don’t hate. I stand up for myself, my friends, my loving partner and many others that have been born/created like me. I come from an environment (Europe) where we are very sensitive to people preaching hate. I personally have vowed to never let it happen again that people can spread hate about others without being countered. We know to well where hate speech leads to.

          Your arrogance has no limits. Truly, you an instrument of god??? you have clearly lost it. Next thing you tell me is you are Jesus himself?

          I personally think that (if there is any) God would prefer you would have staid an Atheist instead of preaching hate in his name.

          You clearly pretend to “own the truth” and to be god’s send instrument on earth. Well, many have preceded you with similar claims, in many religions. Remember those Jewish priests studying all day their bible at the tempel of Jerusalem.They claimed to own the only truth. They devised numbers of rules of how people should live their lives.They could recite bible verses by heart, just the way you can do. Do you remember Jesus’s opinion of them? You might remember which people put Jesus on the cross?

          I bet if your Jesus would come back to earth today, you would not even recognize him. You would probably snub him and tell him you are far more intelligent than he is, that you have a better line with God than he has. And if he would attend a gay wedding (which I bet he would do, given his past choices – according to your bible) you would probably nail him to a cross because he would be discrediting your “truth” and by doing so, diminishing the power you want to have over other peoples lives.

          Try to get back to earth, you are NOT an instrument of gods will, and you do NOT own the truth. And don’t you dare to tell other people what to do or not do do based on your false sense of morality. Repent???? Or else??? Are you going to burn me at the stake? You must be joking.Your dark ages have passed long time ago. Remember, you base your morals on 2.000 year old stories that have caused enough suffering and pain in this world. These stories and opinions, and your kind of love for people, have proven to be a very immoral guidance and have been the reason for killing millions of innocent people (remember the actions of the crusaders, the prosecution of protestants, the prosecution of Jews, condoning the killing of Jews by the Nazis in WW2, forbidding people in poor countries to use condoms as protection against HIV, condoning the bullying of gay teens at schools, condoning the killing of homosexuals in places like Uganda, etc. etc.).

          Religion could be a force for the good, but unfortunately is hijacked by the likes of you, the real haters that abuse religion for their power base. That is the evil in this world. And you make yourself clearly part of that evil. Yes, that is what you are, EVIL.

          You invited me to come to one of your 48 (???) states to have a debate of some kind. I invite you to come to Europe to do so. But be warned, you will be arrested when you put your first foot on our soil, as we don’t tolerate preachers of hate like you on our side.

          And you don’t know any ex homosexuals. There are no ex homosexuals. You might know homosexuals that repress their feelings because their environment tells them to do so. I pity them, and I despise the environments that do this to their people. I despise the people that force them to live a life they are not.

          I have witnessed it myself. A gay guy being a member of a hillbilly church living a life full of lies. Pretending to be straight towards his church and his wive. Denouncing his gay friends. And six months later he is back to the gay “life style” as you call it. Is that how it should be? I truly hope he didn’t start making babies. What a pain and suffering this gentlemen causes for himself and his wife. Just because he is forced to live a life he is not.

          There is nothing unnatural about homosexuality. It happens everywhere in nature. Animals are born gay, human beings are born gay. And I know what you are going to say next, there is canabalism in nature too. Yes there is. And there is heterosexuality in nature too. Lot of things happen in nature. It only proves that homosexuality being a sin is a human construct, nothing more. And as i mentioned above, it is an outdated human construct, that is based on false claims of morality.

          As nature is perfect, it must have a reason for doing so.You will have noticed that gay people are above average talented in quite some fields (for example arts, or in compassionate work areas). Maybe we are just to talented to be bothered by children?

          • Jim Deferio

            Where do I even begin. Your long comment is filled with so many errors.

            The Bible is VERY clear about homosexuality.

            1 Corinthians 6:9-11
            Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
            nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
            And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

            Notice verse 11, “And such were some of you.”
            Some of the Corinthians were EX-adulterers, EX-homosexuals, EX-drunkards, EX-fornicators, etc.

            Jesus Christ gave the definition of marriage in Matthew 19:4-6 and Mark 10:6-9.

            MATTHEW 19:4-6
            And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who madethem at the beginning ‘made them male and female,
            and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
            So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

            Jesus was quoting from Genesis 2:24

            Paul, the apostle, also affirmed marriage as One Man + One Woman in Ephesians 5:31 and 1 Corinthians 7:2.

            You hate. You hate God, you hate people (no one who loves people would do wicked things with them like you do), and you hate truth.

            I have personally found having preached and witnessed to people in well over 70 homosexualist parades and festivals in at least 18 different cities and having ministered on 59 college campuses (and many of them numerous times) that those identifying as “homosexual” are dull, unintelligent, and incapable of rational thought. They are given over to FEELINGS and often ntake easy subjects in college.

            I have two science degrees and I have completed about 230 semester hours of college coursework (graduate and undergraduate). So, I have spent a number of years in college and I have never met a “gay” person who could have taken the math and science courses that I have taken and others have taken. Like I said, they are given over to FEELINGS.

            As of 1981, more than 1,500 species of animals have been observed in cannibalistic behavior.(G. A. Polis, The evolution and dynamics of intraspecific predation. Annual Review of Ecology and Systematics 12, 225-251,1981).
            So, is cannibalism “natural”?

            Rape occurs at a high frequency in “nature”. Is rape therefore “natural”.

            You ahve NO objective, invariant, universal standard of morality. You are a ship at sea being tossed by the waves and blown around by lies because you have NO moral compass, no ability to think rationally, and you are given over to aberrant and lustful feelings.

          • Jim Deferio

            The Crusades were largely JUST WARS. Islam began jihad with zeal about 630 AD and by the point and edge of sword it swept across North Africa, throughout the Middle East and Persia, into Asia Minor and even into southern Europe. After 465 years of Islamic jihad Pope Urban 2nd responded to the Byzantine Emperor’s pleas for help. The official crusades lasted about 200 years. Maybe you prefer what Muslims do to “gays”…

            Perhaps you are just playing dumb. I doubt it because in my many experiences “gays” cannot think rationally and they are very unintelligent because of being dumbed down by FEELINGS.

            Do you want documentation? Here it is you liar (and you’ll see that it is atheism that has by far resulted in most of the murder and wars).
            1) “The Encyclopedia of Wars” by Alan Axelrod & Charles Phillips
            2) “The Statistics of Democide: Genocide and Mass Murder Since 1900” by RJ Rummel
            3) “Death By Govenment” by RJ Rummel

            These three scholars prove that YOU LIE.

            There are eleven biological systems in the human body. Do you even have the foggiest idea what they are? Ten of them are complete within themselves (though all of them work in conjunction with each other, of course). Only ONE needs another person for completion and not just any other person.

          • Tristan A

            I forgive you your generalization of Muslims, as I assume you are only referring to moslim fundamentalists. Most Islam believers are just very moderate, peace loving people. However the islam extremist or fundamentalists are as evil as Christian fundamentalists or any other religious fundamentalists. Which includes you…

          • Jim Deferio

            I have read the most unholy Qur’an from cover to cover and my wife grew up in Morocco and Algeria from four years old until about 14 years of age.

            You again don’t have any idea what you are talking about and how the Islamic agenda is spread and how they practice taqiyya. You are uneducated and a hater and one who seems totally incapable of using rationality.

            There’s hope for you only if you humble yourself and repent. Like I said, I personally know numerous EX-homosexuals. Here are some testimonies by former homosexualists.

            http://ex-gaytruth.com/ex-gay-testimonies/

          • Tristan A

            So tell me how your christian agenda differs from islam agenda? It is you and your so called christian agenda that is the biggest treat against my human rights, although you are clearly loosing that battle, thanks god.

          • Jim Deferio

            Your “human rights”?
            Civil rights are grounded in natural rights and natural rights are grounded in human nature and human nature is a RATIONAL thing (act, being) in relationship. Using reproductive organs irrationally is not a basis for civil rights or human rights.

            Also, if there is no God to give us intrinsic value as a person then there is no basis for humans (Homo sapiens) to make claims that they are intrinsically of more value than an amoeba. If evolution is true then on what basis does the biochemistry of an amoeba become less important than the biochemistry of a Homo sapien? In the blind chance unguided and impersonal scheme of things that evolutionism demands, there are no such things as “value”, “morality”, “rights”, etc.

            The Gospel spread through the preaching of the word of God, not through swords, bullets and bombs. Anyone using such violent means is denounced by the Bible as a HYPOCRITE. The Qur’an is the justification of Muslims lying and murdering and for subjugation but the Bible condemns those who do such things.

          • Tristan A

            Again, that is nothing more than your personal opinion. If homosexuality clearly happens in nature on a wide scale, why would it than be un natural? I already gave you a possible rationalization. Another one could be that in nature there are more male babies born than female. That would cause a natural “over supply” of man. There are other possible explanations as well. If you are such a science man, why don’t you investigate this more? And with investigating I mean real scientific investigation. Not some rumbling of chapters and verses of a 2.000 old book written by people.

            Your opinion is nothing than a human construct. As there are many.

            On a different note, what is your opinion on the below link:

            https://www.facebook.com/youngparis/photos/a.246934305454622.1073741828.246730475475005/485694378245279/?type=1

            As a true academic as you clearly are, you must hate plagiarism. What do you think, should Marcus, Lucas, and the others have placed some footnotes and references?

          • Jim Deferio

            I’m not going to click on that link.

            It doesn’t matter how old a book is, the question should be, is it true or not. Would you throw out Aristotle’s works because they are about 2,300 years old? Don’t be foolish.

            If everything is merely opinion then there are is no moral objectivity including there being nothing wrong for Muslims to put to death homosexualists.

            “Nature”, what is it? You can claim that EVERYTHING is natural because EVERYTHING occurs in nature including rape, incest, cannibalism, theft of burrows, nests and shelter, eating one’s offspring, parasitism, disease, survival of the fittest, defending territory by killing interlopers, and on and on it goes.

            No, things are natural if they fit and function within their basic reason, purpose, goal and teleological design.

            Also, what is observed in the animal kingdom in regards to “homosexuality” is not animals developing a “gay identity” but animals relieving sexual impulses any way they can. When bull elk fight for the harem of females only one male gets the harem, the others may seek to relieve their pent up hormonal surge for a mate by mounting other males. It is “situational homosexuality” much like men in prison for a long time experience. Dr. Paul Vasey is the one who pioneered the work in this area.

            Clearly cannibalism would be more “natural” than homosexuality since animals do not develop a “gay identity” but animals do enjoy eating no matter where it comes from and because food is a necessity.

          • Tristan A

            So now you say that although things do happen in nature it is not necessarily natural….
            I tell you the following, there is one thing not natural in this discussion and that is religion. I have never heard of an animals praying to any god. So on the face of it, the one thing that is definitely not natural is religion.
            About your one and single truth, there are apparently at least three totally different accounts of this truth. Judaism, Christianity and Islam all three believe in the same god. However all three have a total different history. You tell me who is right and who is wrong. You personally believe that your version is the right one. I can have this same discussion with a Jew or and Muslim and they all will try to convince me with the same intensity and conviction that there story is the real one. Sorry, you believe in something doesn’t make it the truth. It is just your opinion, nothing more.

            You are wrong with the gay identity thing in nature. There are lots of documented accounts of two male animals paring up and living together for the rest of their lives. That goes much further than your “situational homosexuality”.

            May I conclude from your remarks about cannibalism that you would earlier condone cannibalism than homosexuality? you are sick….

          • Jim Deferio

            Simon LeVay is a hack and he should have been fired for his fraudulent research. His research into the hypothalamic structures of various brains was absolutely laughable and no credible scientist would have ever done what he did and then tried to pass it off as scientific research. He is a wicked lying hack.

            Do you consult your pets for what other behaviors are permissible? How desperate are you to try to justify perverse behavior by looking to what animals do? And all of this because you have FEELINGS. Are feelings reliable indicators of truth, moral values, and what direction one should take in life? Do you guess the answer to a math problem based on FEELINGS?

            There is NO “gay gene”. But lets say that one was eventually found (even though after decades nothing has been found). It would only show that the person with the gene is a mutant with a genome that has been compromised due to genetic entropy.

            If you are a believer in the religion of evolutionism then you are betraying your religion for the whole scenario of evolution is “survival of the fittest” and “getting one’s genes into the next generation”.

            Every adult who has died has been known to have drunk water, therefore water leads to death. THAT is Simon LeVay’s warped logic in a nutshell.

            If homosexuality is “natural” because some same-sex activity has been observed in less that 0.01% of animal species then cannibalism is “natural” because it occurs more frequently that some same-sex activity (and cannibalism occurs with sustained activity, not just during mating season). THAT was my argument. Don’t twist my words like you have twisted yourself.

            I have personally met and known many Messianic Jews. The Old Testament is accepted and believed by Christians. Muslims follow the Qur’an and the Hadiths and they are diametrically opposed to Judaism and Christianity. Allah, if it does exist, is NOTHING like Yahweh of the Bible. You are very ignorant to claim that they are the same.

            There is no excuse for you to be wicked. Repent.

          • Tristan A

            Hahahaha, I think by now I have allowed you to show your true colors. And indeed, you are laughable with your repent, repent, repent.

            You where the person that came up with mr. Simon LeVay. Not me. You quote him to prove your point, but only the part you agree with. The other part you conveniently leave out. And that is what you present as your scientific “truth”. And you claim that you never lie and are always truthful. I don’t need to look up the definition of hypocrisy to recognize it when i see it. I can not imagine you hold any university degree at all, because such behavior is what we call at my university scientific fraud.

            I am not consulting my pets or anything. You came up with your statement that homosexuality is un-natural and immoral. I proved to you that there is nothing un-natural about it. Animals engage in homosexual behavior, pair up for longer times as homosexual couples, raise kids together in homosexual relationships, engage in homosexual courtship, etc. etc. As in humans. So clearly homosexuality is natural. For whatever reasons we currently do not understand yet. As a true scientist you should have been eager to find out why it happens. Instead you choose to declare it not rational as you don’t know the rational behind it. Again, I don’t need to look up the definition of ignorant to recognize it when i see it.

            We also concluded that religion is unnatural.

            When it comes to morality, i have clearly pointed out that your sense of morality is nothing more than an opinion on your side. You claim your religion is the only truth on this world. I didn’t count all religions, but it must be dozens. We have christianity, we have islam, we have judaism, there is buddhism, there is Taoism, there is Hinduism, and many more, without taking into account any subdivisions (Catholicism, protestant, etc. etc. etc.). So you claiming to possess the whole and only truth based on YOUR religion is more than arrogant at least. Fact is that your truth is written by PEOPLE, in the social contexts OF THAT TIME, and is only one version of many.

            We also concluded that your special brand of religion, has been a force of destruction, pain and suffering in its lengthy history and is therefore hardly a source of morals. Looking back at the middle ages we can only conclude that christianity was equal to barbarism at that point of time (torture, putting people at the stake, prosecution of Jews, etc.). In the post dark ages period christianity can hardly claim to be a force of the good either, with the barbaric killing of the people of South America at the time of the conquistadors, he condoning of the holocaust, forbidding people to use protection against HIV/AIDS, condoning the killing of homosexuals in Uganda, condoning the bullying of gay teens, the driving force behind apartheid in South Africa, etc.

            And last, I have seen you doing exactly with your bible passages as what you have done with Simon LeVay. You very selectively include in your reasoning what proofs your point, while you call it a wrong interpretation or ignore whole parts that direct you in other ways. So basically you twist your “truth” in such a way that it suits your purpose. Far from objective. Basically you use the bible and your religion, and the same for your “science” to fabricate your truth, and to use that truth to damage people, to deny people their universal declared human rights to family life. For what? i can only guess. If I would be really “wicked” i would imagine seeing a lot of self-hate and you are yourself one of your so called “ex-homosexuals” or maybe even a wannabe “ex-homosexual”. At best you just want to impose your power over people, and you obtain that “power” from your version of the “truth”. Something you see lots and lots of times with religions. Hijacked for personal and selfish purposes.

            Conclusion, both your claims of homosexuality being immoral and un-natural are rubbish, or at best nothing more than YOUR opinion.

            And I tell you this, you are allowed to have YOUR opinion and your religion. That is totally fine with me. But at least recognize that it is your opinion and nothing more. And that there are many competing opinions next to yours. And it is for that reason that most democracies in this world have decided that there should be a clear distinction between church and state.

            It is also for that reason that the world has decided to sign up on a declaration of human rights, to have an objective protection of the individual against governments, religions and whatever. The universal declaration of human rights supersedes civil rights, as civil rights are imbedded in civil law which differ per country and as such are prone to irrationalities (like religions).

            It is your human right to have your religion. And it might surprise you, but I will defend that right with my life if need be. It is my human right to have my family life, and I will defend that right with my life if need be. And it is with the latter that we clash. It is none of your business if I get married with my life long partner, so that our relationship is equally protected under civil law as any other relationship. That my partner is entitled to visit me on my dead bed in the hospital, that my partner is entitled to my life insurance when i die, that my partner is entitled to the partners pension when I die, that my partner can benefit from my health insurance, etc. etc.

            You don’t have the right to interfere in my love life. Or in anyone’s love life. You are not allowed to determine if I should marry or not. By doing so, you are taking my human rights away. And that is universally declared immoral.

            And see included article on the net today (I know you are not going to open it with your selective intake of information, but anyway)

            http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2015/04/nevada-bill-would-ban-gay-to-straight-conversion-therapy-for-minors/

            As I understand from you, you are involved in so called gay-to-straight conversion therapy. Let me read to you what the world things of this:

            “The bill would prohibit social workers and psychotherapists from providing sexual orientation and gender identity conversion therapy to people under the age of 18. Parks said the therapy is unscientific and unethical and can permanently damage minors during their formative years.”

            So here it is, you are permanently damaging people (assume you are doing this to minors) with your ideas and your opinion. STOP THIS EVIL!

            Again, you can have your religion. You can have your marriage, fine with me. But don’t impose your beliefs and opinions on other people and by doing so hurting their love life, their interests and/or their psyche.

            Me being gay doesn’t hurt anybody in society. You with your disgusting actions, idea of self declared supremacy, hijacking of your religion, being a scientific fraud, etc. are actually hurting other people. You are an embarrassment on this world. And if god does exist, i bet (my opinion) that he will have turned himself away from you by now out of embarrassment.

            So to use your words: REPENT!

          • Tristan A

            And regarding my solving of math problems, you should know that the real good ones leverage on their intuition, next to their normal mathematical skills. You clearly didnt reach that point. Im not a psychologist so cant tell you the determining difference between feelings and intuition, but it is pretty close. Basically at allows you to come up with the solution of the math problem without taking all normal steps, these steps you make sub concious. Obviously after you have your solution you have to work back to actually prove it. Works amazingly fast. I understand you did not reach that point yet?

          • Jim Deferio

            You clearly are in the grip of sin and are enslaved by wicked feelings. You also have a reading comprehension problem.

            Simon LeVay is a homosexualist who is always skewing things to try to prove that his wicked same-sex attractions are normal and natural. They are clearly not. His research has been falsified.

            What are your reproductive organs designed for. Use in anything other than how they were designed is UNNATURAL, duh! You are laughable.

            Murder is “natural” in the animal kingdom so if someone tries to murder you then you should not object, right? LOL

            Rape is “natural” in the animal kingdom so if a man tries to rape you then don’t object. LOL

            Coprophagia is “natural” in the animal kingdom so if someone serves you feces at a restaurant you shouldn’t object, right?

            YOU have no objective standards for morality but you only have an opinion and your opinion is twisted by your enslavement to wicked feelings.

            You have made yourself into an ANIMAL and nothing more and for that you will suffer with the consequences of disease and a shorter life span.

            “You said, “homosexual couples rasie kids together…” Are you NUTS? Two men, or three men, or ten men or two women, or thirty women can NOT produce children. The God-given design is HETEROSEXUALITY. All sexual feelings arise due to this procreative design but just as there is bulimia, anorexia, gluttony, etc. that strays from the basic need for nutrition and proper digestion, homosexuality is similarly a wicked departure from what is natural and proper for a healthy relationship and procreation.

            YOU wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for heterosexuality! Duh.

            Just look at the wicked homosexualist researchers trying to twist the facts: Dean Hamer, Simon LeVay, J. Michael Bailey, and Richard Pillard. Biased much?

            However, there is one honest researcher who, though he is pro-gay, says he must go by the research. Dr. Savin-Williams of Cornell Univ. has shown that gender identity is fluid and that homosexuality is NOT immutable.
            *** Savin-Williams RC, Ream GL. 2007. Prevalence and stability of sexual orientation components during adolescence and young adulthood. Archives of Sexual Behavior 36:385-394.

            Dean Hamer’s fraudulent gene linkage study published in the July issure of Scinece was falsified by this:
            *** Rice G, Anderson C, Risch N, Eber G. 1999. Male homosexuality; absence of linkage to micro-satellite markers at Xq28. Science 284:665-7.

            Risch recently said that the latest gene linkage study that tried to prove a genetic link to male homosexuality was flawed.

            I can cite MANY more research studies. Also, it is widely accepted that human brains are “plastic” and not subject to determinative genetic factors. PEOPLE CAN AND DO CHANGE as researcher Spitzer has documented.

            I persoanlly know numerous EX-homosexuals. The choice is yours. You do have a choice. Stay in your sins or be set free and be the man God intended you to be. Perhaps someone did evil to you in the past – don’t do evil yourself on account of it. Regardless of how, in your darkened and delauded mind, you THINK you were born, Jesus Christ said, “YOU must be born again” (John 3:3-8).

          • Tristan A

            As I mentioned in my previous message, you have lost all moral and scientific credibility by your earlier statements. I rest my case, you just simply hate. You make a lot of noise around it, but there is no more substance than hate. I feel sorry for you…

          • Jim Deferio

            Runaway little boy.
            Look, I’m not the one who did something evil in your life when you were younger and influenced you into being a sodomite.

            The Bible says in Romans 12:9,
            “Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.” (NewKJV)

            You are doing the direct opposite. You are doing as Isaiah warned about in Isaiah 5:21-22,
            “Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
            Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
            Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
            Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes,
            And prudent in their own sight!”

            There is NOTHING natural about sodomy. It is disgusting, unclean, dirty, smelly, and evil.

            You serve the god of eros and you are a slave to wicked feelings and are like a ship at sea driven by the winds and waves and you have no compass and no rudder.

            You have the power of contrary choice and you can choose to hate that which is good or to love that which is good. Stop loving evil.

            1 CORINTHIANS 6:9-11
            “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
            nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
            And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”
            (NewKJV)

          • Tristan A

            hahahahahaha, more of your 2000 old stories. Get real.

          • Tristan A

            From the preambule of the Universal Declaration of Human rights (1948). From your comments it is clear you have a disregard and contempt for human rights. This is what it says about it:

            Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous
            acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world
            in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom
            from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common
            people,

            It is your attitude, what you call christian morals, that has resulted in barbarous acts… By other people, like Nazi’s, etc., but also in name of the christian faith.

            You are a very dangerous man with your hate preaching. It is the likes of you, with a clear contempt for human rights, that cause the pain and suffering in this world, that has resulted in barbarian acts in the past.

          • Jim Deferio

            You sound like a teenager who is confused and in the dark. How old are you?

            It is well documented that homosexualists and atheists have subjected millions of people to torture, death, and slavery.

            Atheists have so far been guilty of most genocide and murders. See these books by these scholars:
            1) Encyclopedia of Wars” by Alan Axelrod & Charles Phillips
            2) “Death By Government” by RJ Rummel
            3) “The Statistics of Democide: Genocide and Mass Murder Since 1900” by RJ Rummel

          • Tristan A

            hahahahahha, you believe in fairytales and you call me a teenager? I have taken one of your quotation of a scholar serious before, and only after a brief investigation found that you where quoting very selectively. Basically the author claimed the opposite of what you where saying. When confronting you with that information, you distanced yourself immediately from that scholar and called him a fraud.
            There is only one fraud here, and that is you. And the comments above are as fraudulent as everything coming from you. I bet if I would dish out the cash to read those books I would have exactly the same experience.

            Tell me, how much do parents pay you for that conversion therapy you are practicing? and does it include a money back guarantee?

            Good thing that they are going to make that illegal now. Won’t take long for them to strip you from your “professional” credentials, if you have any. (I bet not).

            you are evil

          • Jim Deferio

            Seriously, I am having trouble following you. Is English your second language?
            Please provide the sources and the quotations.

            As far as geocentricity is concerned, that was an ancient Greek “scientific” doctrine that was articulated in the second century AD by Claudius Ptolemaeus. After a great deal of time had passed the Roman Catholics finally bought into this prevailing “scientific” doctrine.

      • Jim Deferio

        I fear God and always tell the truth. It was my search for truth when I was an atheist that eventually led me to Christ who said,
        “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No comes to the Father except through Me.” (John 14:6).

        Here’s just a few resources that reveal how disgustingly disease-ridden homosexualists are:

        http://www.cdc.gov/msmhealth/S

        http://www.cdc.gov/msmhealth/v

        http://kff.org/hivaids/fact-sh

        http://www.hhs.gov/ash/oah/ado

  • Nick_from_Detroit

    A bit of a pallet cleanser, and a peace offering, on this Holy Saturday, after days of rancorous debate. Enjoy.
    (Interesting backstory to this, the Japanese have had these types of performances since it was brought to them during the Great War!)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBlQZyTF_LY

    Oh friends, not these sounds!
    Let us instead strike up more pleasing
    and more joyful ones!
    Joy!
    Joy!

    Joy, beautiful spark of divinity,
    Daughter from Elysium,
    We enter, burning with fervour,
    heavenly being, your sanctuary!
    Your magic brings together
    what fashion has sternly divided.
    All men shall become brothers,
    wherever your gentle wings hover.

    Whoever has been lucky enough
    to become a friend to a friend,
    Whoever has found a beloved wife,
    let him join our songs of praise!
    Yes, and anyone who can call one soul
    his own on this earth!
    Any who cannot, let them slink away
    from this gathering in tears!

    Every creature drinks in joy
    at nature’s breast;
    Good and Bad alike
    follow her trail of roses.
    She gives us kisses and wine,
    a true friend, even in death;
    Even the worm was given desire,
    and the cherub stands before God.

    Gladly, just as His suns hurtle
    through the glorious universe,
    So you, brothers, should run your course,
    joyfully, like a conquering hero.

    Be embraced, you millions!
    This kiss is for the whole world!
    Brothers, above the canopy of stars
    must dwell a loving father.
    Do you bow down before Him, you millions?
    Do you sense your Creator, o world?
    Seek Him above the canopy of stars!
    He must dwell beyond the stars.

  • Nick_from_Detroit

    Here are two in honor of the King of kings and Lord of lords. Happy Easter!
    (The second one is more on the cute side!)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76RrdwElnTU
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRhjWdr-LAA

    Hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah
    Hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah

    For the Lord God Omnipotent reigneth
    Hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah
    For the Lord God Omnipotent reigneth
    Hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah
    For the Lord God Omnipotent reigneth
    Hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah

    Hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah
    Hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah
    (For the Lord God Omnipotent reigneth)
    Hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah

    For the Lord God Omnipotent reigneth
    (Hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah)
    Hallelujah

    The kingdom of this world;
    Is become
    The kingdom of our Lord,
    And of His Christ
    And of His Christ

    And He shall reign for ever and ever
    And He shall reign forever and ever
    And He shall reign forever and ever
    And He shall reign forever and ever

    King of kings forever and ever hallelujah hallelujah

    And Lord of lords forever and ever hallelujah hallelujah
    King of kings forever and ever hallelujah hallelujah
    And Lord of lords forever and ever hallelujah hallelujah
    King of kings forever and ever hallelujah hallelujah
    And Lord of lords
    King of kings and Lord of lords

    And He shall reign
    And He shall reign
    And He shall reign
    He shall reign
    And He shall reign forever and ever

    King of kings forever and ever
    And Lord of lords, hallelujah hallelujah
    And He shall reign forever and ever

    King of kings and Lord of lords
    King of kings and Lord of lords
    And He shall reign forever and ever

    Forever and ever and ever and ever
    (King of kings and Lord of lords)

    Hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah
    Hallelujah

  • http://libertyandhope.com/ xRedfoxx

    In
    a true free society, Christians should not be forced to participate with groups
    or individuals that condone sinful behavior. Join us on facebook at facebook/ISupportReligiousFreedom

  • Nick_from_Detroit

    UPDATE: Memories Pizza’s, the Indiana pizza place that has been mercilessly attacked by homo-fascists, GoFundMe account was shut-down on Friday, as planned. But, not before it received OVER $840,000!!!! Thanks, homo-fascists!
    Even though anti-freedom loving leftwingers did everything they could to bully GoFundMe into shutting down the account. Losers!

    Meanwhile…
    The homo-fascists set up their own GoFundMe account in a lame attempt to show those pizza-making bigots what’s for! They set a goal of reaching One Million Dollars. They raised a grand total of….less than 600 bucks!

    Here’s the link to the florist, who is being sued by homo-fascists, and she might lose her store and home:
    http://www.gofundme.com/mz6zm4

  • Fobes

    Dont feed the trolls Leftleaning is nothing but that…