Alabama Senate Opens With Prayer Seeking ‘Forgiveness for Allowing Sexual Perversions’

Alabama Capitol PDMONTGOMERY, Ala. — The Alabama Senate was opened with a prayer on Tuesday that sought forgiveness for the nation’s embrace of sexual perversion.

“Forgive us for allowing sexual perversions to be considered as normal,” prayed David Gonnella, pastor of Magnolia Springs Baptist Church in Theodore.

He was later approached by Mike Cason of AL.com, who asked if his words pertained to homosexuality. Gonnella said that he was referring to anything that God considers an abomination.

However, he noted that he disagrees with January’s federal court ruling surrounding the state’s Sanctity of Marriage Act and supports Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore’s efforts to uphold the state Constitution. The amendment at issue, passed in 2006 with 81 percent of the vote, states that “[m]arriage is inherently a unique relationship between a man and a woman.”

“The people of Alabama voted that marriage should be between one man and one woman and that should be what is done,” Gonnella said.

As previously reported, in 2013, two lesbians in the state sued Gov. Robert Bentley, Attorney General Luther Strange and Mobile County Probate Judge Don Davis—among others—in an attempt to overturn the law after one of the women was denied from adopting the other woman’s child. U.S. District Judge Ginny Granade ruled in favor of the women, stating that the Alabama Sanctity of Marriage Act “harms the children of same-sex couples.”

But Moore found the ruling to be tyrannical, and forbid probate judges throughout the state from issuing same-sex licenses.

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“Lower federal courts are without authority to impose their own interpretation of federal constitutional law upon the state courts,” he wrote in a statewide memo. “Not only is the Mobile federal court acting without constitutional authority, but it is doing so in a manner inconsistent with the Eleventh Amendment to the United States Constitution.”

Moore also called upon Gov. Bentley to uphold the state Constitution and reject the ruling. He additionally pointed to the Scriptures in his plea, as Jesus declared in Mark 10:6-9 that “from the beginning of creation God made them male and female, [and] for this cause, a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife, and they twain shall be one flesh.”

The high court justice noted a U.S. Supreme Court ruling from 1885, which was reiterated in 1908, which stated that the foundation for marriage and family is “the union for life of one man and one woman in the holy estate of matrimony.”

But Bentley, a former Sunday school teacher and elder, said that he felt he must uphold the ruling despite his disagreement with it. Bentley’s pastor, Gil McKee of First Baptist Church Tuscaloosa, has been encouraging Bentley that it is the Christian’s duty to obey God rather than men, just as God’s people did in Scripture.

“There’s nothing grey about this issue—not if you’re going to go with what God says, and God has made it clear that marriage is between one man and one woman, period, and that settles it,” he said in a sermon in February. “The issue is, are we going to go with God, or are we going to go with somebody else?”

 


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  • Paul Hiett

    It would seem to me that if your religion is getting in the way of your job, maybe you should quit that job?

    • pastoredsmith

      So, if you’re a Christian, don’t work in government? That’s 180 degrees opposite of the Founding Fathers and the origins of this country. It is my preference that true Christians be elected to public office.

      • Paul Hiett

        If working in a government position requires you, based on the law of this country, to do something that you feel is in conflict with your religion, and you place your religion above doing your job, then yeah, either quit or don’t take the job. It’s not fair to the public who depend on such positions if someone is choosing to enforce their religious beliefs in place of the laws that protect and serve everyone in this country.

        EDIT: It’s also exactly what our “founding fathers” intended by separation of church and state.

        • pastoredsmith

          So, if America operates by your statement, only atheists need run for office. And, President Thomas Jefferson, the guy who suggested “separation of church and state” was dead wrong when he sponsored a new church that met in the Capitol Building, or when he asked and persuaded Congress to pay for and distribute Bibles. No, this atheistic approach is 180 degrees opposite of our founding fathers and their approach to building a country that would “prefer” Christian leaders. Did you fail American History?

          • Paul Hiett

            The Constitution clearly states that Congress shall pass no law respecting the establishment of a religion. The Treaty of Tripoli also states that this nation is NOT a Christian nation.

            Also, you might want to research Thomas Jefferson, and understand why he was a Deist and not a Christian.

          • pastoredsmith

            Typical of you, Paul. You always quote only part of the First Amendment and ignore the rest. The balance of the amendment says, “nor prohibit the free exercise thereof.” Atheists always love to negate that part. If atheists such as the bullies at FFRF had their way, all of America would be “atheist zones,” and you would still declare that Americans have “freedom of worship.” There is no need to argue with you. You are one sided and refuse to admit otherwise. But beware. If you people keep trying to strip America of our freedom OF religion, it is a dangerous thing and it will backfire.

          • Paul Hiett

            Free exercise thereof does not give you the right to force your viewpoints on others. It does not mean that our laws don’t apply to you if you claim your religious beliefs are being violated. Why do you think it gives you a right to force others to live under your bibles rules?

          • pastoredsmith

            So you think it gives atheists the right to force their viewpoint of a godless society on the rest of us? Who is doing the forcing here? FFRF. Atheists. Bullies the lot. Christianity is all about a CHOICE whether to serve God or not. Atheism is about forcing all of America into godless subversion.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            “So you think it gives atheists the right to force their viewpoint of a godless society on the rest of us”

            How does not wanting the government to promote Christianity “force their viewpoint of a godless society” on anyone? Are people still not free to believe as they like?

          • pastoredsmith

            Oh, so when President Thomas Jefferson sponsored a new church and allowed them to meet in the Capitol building, and when he asked and got Congress to pay for and print Bibles, he was “establishing a religion?” Ridiculous. SCOTUS is out of control, US Government is rogue when they try to rip these freedoms from US Citizens. And, FFRF is nothing but a bully trying to silence Christianity. OK, you will deny that. Then, prove to me that Christianity is not the vast majority of the place where FFRF spends its time. You can’t prove that because it is true that FFRF focuses on Christianity.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            I’ll ask again: How does not wanting the government to promote Christianity “force their viewpoint of a godless society” on anyone? Are people still not free to believe as they like?

            “US Government is rogue when they try to rip these freedoms from US Citizens.”

            What freedoms do you believe the government is trying to rip from citizens?

            “You can’t prove that because it is true that FFRF focuses on Christianity.”

            Given that the infractions involve Christianity, but not other religions, that would be reasonable.

          • Paul Hiett

            Atheist aren’t looking to tear down your churches. Atheists don’t care what you do in your home, or your places of worship…sadly, Christians are constantly worried about what everyone else is doing at home though.

            If you want to see what Christians are doing to others in support of their “love”, Google “McGuffey High School” and see just what exactly I’m talking about.

          • pastoredsmith

            “Atheist aren’t looking to tear down your churches. Atheists don’t care what you do in your home, or your places of worship…sadly, Christians are constantly worried about what everyone else is doing at home though.”

            You mean “yet.”

            And, just because some people who call themselves “Christian” does not mean they are practicing Christianity. I’m sure you wish to take responsibility for everyone who calls themselves “atheists” when they do things stupid? Get a life.

          • markofthebeasts

            They confuse not getting to inflict their bronze age mythologies and ‘gods’ onto others with persecution. No surprise Alabama ranks pretty much near the bottom in most standards, except religiosity. Bless their pea pickin’ hearts.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            “I don’t want to share! I want you to treat me special! I don’t care what the other kids want to do – I want to be able to make them do whatever I want. Waa waa waa”.

            Like petulant children.

          • pastoredsmith

            Jefferson was only one of about 250 founding fathers. It is amazing how, after an atheist rewrote history in 1930 in books that were adopted as school textbooks that only five or six are promoted, including the only atheist, Thomas Paine. No, atheism has been at work a long time trying to change America….for the worse. I, for one, will never submit to a godless society. As long as the First Amendment of the Constitution stands as it is, I will exercise my freedom of religion. And, I will expose the forced atrocities of atheists who wish to make atheist zones out of schools and government offices by bullying their way into supremacy. Your plan will backfire. Christians have been run over long enough. And, we turned the other cheek. We have loved you people, tried to get along with you, and we will continue to love you. However, loving you does not mean that we submit to your bullying tactics.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            “Christians have been run over long enough.”

            ROFLMAO

            You can’t be serious?

          • pastoredsmith

            Now comes the fun. Paul calls his atheist buddies for reinforcement. Or, is this you, Paul with another login? I never know since you guys all use the same group of atheist idiot talking points. I think this is atheist talking point #3, “when you can’t win the argument, mock the Christian.” Yes, we’ve been shoved into silence by demanding, bullying FFRF and like-minded angry, bitter atheists who want and try to turn America into one big atheist zone. Not going to happen. Laugh about that.

          • Paul Hiett

            If you think I need to use a second account, or that I need to “call” anyone for help, you’ve got bigger issues than just being intolerant.

          • pastoredsmith

            Name calling again. It fits. Well, for your information, I’m not the one with “issues.” My life is wonderful in Christ. I am at peace with my Savor and my God. Too bad you can’t say the same honestly.
            As to your newest accusation of “intolerance,” I do very well living next door to an atheist who refuses to take part in silencing America. He thinks FFRF are bullies and that you people should learn to be as tolerant as true Christians are. And, when anyone gets out of line or truly intolerant by wanting someone else to have their religion (including atheism) squelched in this country, those people should be the targets; not the religion itself.

          • Paul Hiett

            What do you think about the “tolerance” that “true Christians” are showing at Mcguffey High School?

          • pastoredsmith

            Do you think it is “hate” to reject “gay” as normal? Do you think it is “hate” to put Scripture verses up that tell the truth? Do you think it is “hate” or “intolerance” when Christians stand on the truth of the Bible rather than accept homosexuality and “gay marriage?” Yes, I see where you’re going with this. And, apparently, atheists are now mostly “pro gay.” I consider this “hate,” since homosexuality is wrong and destructive.

          • Paul Hiett

            Can you please answer my question?

          • pastoredsmith

            I did.

          • Paul Hiett

            So you have no issue with Christians hating on gay people and abusing them, but when they stand up for themselves, you’re being persecuted.

            Nice.

          • pastoredsmith

            So, you as an atheist with no basis for morality defines “hate?” How do you know that your “brother atheist” will call that “hate?” The fact is this: You wish to redefine right and wrong to suit your own twisted nonsensical “no God” free-thinking nonsense, and you wish to call Christians haters based on your own human imagination rather than on that which is love or hate? You, sir have no concept of right and wrong because you have no basis for morality apart from your own wild imagination. You call posting Scripture “hating people.” You call standing on God’s Word “hateful.” Your nonsense is nothing but babbling nonsense.

          • Paul Hiett

            So you completely and without question support the actions of the anti-gay teens and what they did to other kids who did nothing to them to warrant the treatment?

            Your hypocrisy is sickening.

          • pastoredsmith

            I suppose that any time I can make an atheist sick at his stomach must be right since you hate God and me as well. Jesus made people mad and was accused of many things. The good news for me is that I’m not accountable to you. I’m accountable to God and He will judge me. To whom are you accountable? That’s what I thought. Nobody. And, you call me a hypocrite and sickening? You are the one calling names here. You see, I love you as a human being because Christ loved you first as He did me. I don’t approve of you or your belief system (or lack thereof), but I do want to let you know that Christ has a better plan for you. You can learn that calling sin what it is, sin, is not hate. It is not demonstrating any kind of anger or hatred at all any more than if I saw you in town and told you your house was on fire because somehow I knew that could be construed as “hate.”
            Keep calling names, if it helps you to rationalize your own hatred that spouts such nonsense. But, it won’t help you when you really need it. Only God can help you when your life comes to an end, and only then if you acknowledge Him now.

          • Paul Hiett

            Where, exactly, are you getting this idea that I’m calling you names? I see nothing that I have said that could possibly be construed as insulting.

          • pastoredsmith

            You called me a hypocrite.
            You called me intolerant.
            You said that I have “bigger issues than just being intolerant.”
            Should I continue? You don’t know me. You have no idea what I stand for, yet you lump me in with every single person who calls the name of Christ for themselves when they are no more a Christian than a machine bolt is an automobile. You simply hate me because I name the name of Christ and live by His Holy Word. And, may I ask you, do you support the FFRF?

          • Paul Hiett

            I pointed out the hypocrisy of your stance regarding Mcguffey high school, and how gays and lesbians are being treated there.

            Not only is it hypocritical, it’s also intolerant of their sexual orientation. I’m not sure why you find that insulting, as it’s simply pointing out what has been observed by the very things you write. You won’t find me resorting to calling you names like others on here do (both sides, btw). But, I will point out intolerance and hypocrisy when it occurs.

            Finally, I don’t hate you. I hardly know you. I do support the FFRF because they actively work to help ensure a separation of Church and State especially in our public schools where it is obviously needed.

          • pastoredsmith

            1) you don’t know what I think regarding Mcguffey high. You assume too much, as I suspected.
            2) The true hypocrisy here is yours. You are an atheist. As such, you have no God to answer to. You have no standard of measure for morality except that which is “approved” by you and your atheist friends. You destroy God’s standard of morality and substitute your own and think that gives you the privilege to ridicule and try to rock others who actually do have a standard of morality and a God to whom we are accountable. Your “free thinking” mentality is not only dangerous, it is intolerable. What you “think” is right or wrong is not necessarily what your atheist friends think, so right and wrong becomes “relative to the situation.” Right this time because you did it, wrong next time if someone else does exactly the same. Intolerance? Your intolerance for Christianity is loud and clear. You think that it’s your way or the highway, and yet, you accuse Christians of forcing their will on others? You are so backwards, as are any and all who simply think their way through life with no boundaries except self imposed ones that are flaky at best.
            3) If you support the FFRF, you hate me. The FFRF is a bullying organization that says they are “policing” schools and governments to insure that all semblances of religion are removed from public life and individuals are censored. The FFRF has impacted me personally and many of the people I love with their intolerance of Christianity. Their misuse and abuse of separation of church and state is simply horrifying. So, when you try to silence me, you hate me. And, you have no clue what is needed at schools and governments when you support a group who’d rather sue struggling schools than work in a decent manner and educate people. That’s because your form of education will never be accepted, it, like Communism, must be forced.
            And, on top of that, you spend your time on Christian news sites ridiculing Christians. If you could only realize that you are the hypocrite if you dare say “coexist.” Atheists hate all religion but refuse to accept the fact that atheism is a religion unto itself. Just ask the IRS. They approved your so-called “mega atheist churches” for a tax deductible organization, same as a real Christian church.

          • Paul Hiett

            You have no idea what it means to be an atheist. None.

          • pastoredsmith

            The clueless one here is the one who denies God. I do know of hopelessness without God. I do know that no purpose except that which is self-defined is no purpose at all. I do know of futility without God. And, I know you will deny all of this. But, I can tell you that no amount of “freethinking” will substitute for a relationship with God when the end of your life here comes around.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            I’m not an atheist. I have a strong believe in God.

            In what way did I “mock the Christian”?

            “Yes, we’ve been shoved into silence”

            Despite the obvious that you are sharing your views on here, I see Christians on news and talk shows sharing their views, television stations that are devoted to Christianity, church services on any day that followers wish to have them, and numerous organizations that focus solely on extending the Christian belief system, it is clear that “we’ve been shoved into silence” goes beyond hyperbole, to simply a false statement.

            In what ways do you feel that Christians have been “shoved into silence”?

          • pastoredsmith

            FFRF letters to schools demanding no prayer at graduation….years ago.
            FFRF demanding that anything “Christian” be disallowed by anyone anywhere in government or public school or in private business.
            Atheists wanting to remove “under God” from Pledge of Allegiance and change the national motto.
            “religion free” zones in all government and public school demanded by atheist. I call these “atheist zones” because that is exactly what they are.
            Only the tip of the iceberg.
            You say you are a Christian. Is your head in the sand, or are you just blind to what’s happening in this country?

          • Paul Hiett

            “Under God’ was only added back in 1956. I see no issue with restoring the original pledge.

          • pastoredsmith

            You wouldn’t. Anything that removes God from anything public or American would please you. More hatred and bullying from atheists.

          • Paul Hiett

            So restoring the pledge of allegiance to it’s original form is hate and bullying?

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            “FFRF letters to schools demanding no prayer at graduation”

            How does not saying a Christian prayer at a graduation ceremony silence Christians? You seem to be confusing not promoting Christianity with silencing Christianity. They are not the same. Are students at the graduation not allowed to get together before or after the ceremony to pray?

            “FFRF demanding that anything “Christian” be disallowed by anyone anywhere in government or public school or in private business.”

            Please provide some examples of demanding that “anything” Christian be disallowed to “anyone” and “anywhere” in government or public school or in private business.

            “Atheists wanting to remove “under God” from Pledge of Allegiance and change the national motto.”

            How does some people expressing their desire to remove “under God” from the Pledge of Allegiance and change the national motto back to what it was originally, result in Christians no longer being able to speak about their faith – ie be “silenced”?

            “”religion free” zones in all government and public school demanded by atheist.”

            Specific details on this?

            “I call these “atheist zones” because that is exactly what they are.”

            So everyone who enters these “zones” has to give up their faith? They are no longer allowed to believe as they choose when they are in these zones? They must become atheists when in these zones?

            “You say you are a Christian.”

            I did not say that. I said I have a strong believe in God.

          • pastoredsmith

            Not ALLOWING a prayer by a valedictorian or salutatorian, or any wording that presents the speaker’s religious view by censorship is squelching public speech. Not allowing teachers to place a Bible on their desk or forbidding students from bringing Bibles to school or class is likewise censorship. It is not “establishing a religion” to “allow the free exercise thereof.” Period.

            Gideons are no longer allowed to distribute Bibles at school, a practice that has gone on for nearly as long as there has been a government school. Yet, atheists get their way by bullying schools, teachers and students into subjection by demanding “religion free” zones…..they should be called what they really are. “atheist zones.”

            So, what’s wrong with leaving the Pledge alone? Why does Barry Linn and FFRF, along with like minded atheist groups demand it be removed? It does not establish a religion. It is generic. It says, “under GOD,” not “under Christ” or “under Buddha.” It is generic. And, if you cannot deny the definite and deliberate influence of Christianity on the founding documents. They are choc-full of Scriptural principles, quotes or paraphrases. Christianity is about a choice to serve God or not. Be one, or refuse. It is that simple. That is the exact same premise that the USA was built upon, not this “anti-God” thing atheists push for.

            Yes, they have to either compromise their faith or give it up completely. Schools feel bullied and are afraid to allow anything Christian after the threats of lawsuits against them by FFRF and others. it is coercion, plain and simple. Bullying at its worst.

            Believing in God does not make one a Christian anyway. The devil believes in God, knows He is real, sees and knows first hand of His power and denies Him anyway. Just believing in “any god” is not the same as believing in Jesus Christ and His Father, Jehovah God.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            “Not ALLOWING a prayer by a valedictorian or salutatorian, or any wording that presents the speaker’s religious view by censorship is squelching public speech.”

            So then is it your position that citizens should be allowed to say whatever they want, where ever they want, and when ever they want?

            “Not allowing teachers to place a Bible on their desk…is likewise censorship.”

            How so? Are you suggesting that employers must allow employees to display whatever they care to in the workplace without limits?

            “forbidding students from bringing Bibles to school”

            Please provide me with the names of some public schools that forbid students from bringing a bible onto school property.

            “Gideons are no longer allowed to distribute Bibles at school”

            Correct. It is not the job of public schools to promote the Christian belief system, nor any belief system. Likewise, a Muslim group would be prohibited from distributing the Quran at school, and Jewish groups would be prohibited from distributing the Talmud. Christianity is not singled out. The rules apply to all religions.

            Students are free to bring their own bibles, and bibles are available in the library.

            “Why does Barry Linn and FFRF, along with like minded atheist groups demand it be removed?”

            That’s their view which, in the US, they are entitled to. Why does it upset you so that they hold this view? Should they not be allowed to express their views and to put effort into accomplishing what they want?

            “Schools feel bullied and are afraid to allow anything Christian after the threats of lawsuits against them by FFRF and others. it is coercion, plain and simple. Bullying at its worst.”

            You do not appear to have a correct understanding of what “bullying” is. You can’t “bully” a school. Trust me, if the school had strong legal ground to stand on, they would be. But they know they don’t. Public schools, which serve all students of all faiths as well as no faith, and are funded by taxpayers of all faiths as well as no faith, are not allowed to promote religion. Period. Not just Christian – but ANY religion.

            Is your faith so weak that you require the government to promote it to the population at large? Is it not sufficient that you are allowed to believe as you choose and to, for the most part, express your beliefs as you choose? Is it really necessary that government institutions also promote your beliefs?

            There is no “war on Christianity”. There is a desire to have Christianity treated on par with other religions as well as no religion, to not receive preferential treatment by the government – which serves all people of all faiths as well as no faith – and to no longer allow the Christian belief system to be a sole basis for our laws.

            Sorry, but your group doesn’t get to bully everyone else anymore.

          • Deina

            Aye, and you’d be the first & the loudest to howl should the valedictorian or salutatorian be a Muslim & wish to pray in Arabic from the podium. Or a Wiccan, or a Rastafarian. How about a Satanist?

            If you allow one, you must allow all!

          • pastoredsmith

            Do you live with your head in the sand? These people are there already, and have not been forbidden by the government. False religions are free in America, or didn’t you know that? And, I have the right to call them “false” because I’m an American.
            And, where did you go to school? Gideons distributed Bibles until just a couple of years ago in some states. I got one in the Fifth grade….1967. And, many of my relatives got them a lot more recently than that.
            If you want to see where false religions are forbidden, why not visit Iran. Their government is run by Sharia Law, and if you’re not Muslim, you die. No Wiccans, Rastafarians or satanists there.

          • Paul Hiett

            Your religion is just as false as theirs is. I doubt you’ll understand why, of course.

          • pastoredsmith

            See, that is where you fall off the cliff, Paul. I don’t have a “religion,” I have a relationship with the Creator of the Universe that you cannot explain away, no matter how you try.
            If you are so certain your atheist religion is the best way, do you simply dismiss Creation as “non existent,” or do you believe an explosion in space caused by some “material” that “just happened to be floating around” and bumping into itself because gravity “just happened to be a law of the universe all by itself” and everything came into being?
            Or, where do you see yourself going when you die? The grave is the end? Are you really sure about that? Of course not! You cannot prove me wrong, so you just refuse to believe the truth. I do feel for you. God has a better plan for you. Just ask Him.

          • Paul Hiett

            You can claim that you have a relationship with your choice of a deity all you want, but the fact remains you’re a Christian. Your choice of a religion is no more special than anyone else out there. Muslims, Jews, Sikhs, Hindus, etc…every single one of them are as devoted as you are. So yeah, if you’re going to claim one religion as “false” you have to claim them all as false.

            Oh, and for the record, you can’t prove me wrong either.

          • pastoredsmith

            Oh, for the record, you say that I don’t know anything about atheism, yet you claim to be an expert on Christianity. Yet, your last post is the most ignorant of all. There is no choice of a “god,” and you well know it. Otherwise, atheists would fight just as hard against Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, etc as you do Jews and Christians. Yours is the bad choice of rejecting the one and only God of the Universe.
            And, again for the record, you can’t prove me wrong and you cannot prove your atheism is anything more than your own wild imagination.
            I pray you find Christ while you can. He will make the difference.

          • Paul Hiett

            And as I said, you can’t prove the existence of your choice of a deity either. And yes, that’s all religion is…a choice.

            I could go one further and point out that it’s your parents who made that choice for you. One’s religious affiliation is usually nothing more than a geographical accident. You were simply born to a Christian family, ergo you’re now a Christian.

            Also, what makes you think there’s only one choice? There are over 4200 religions in the world. Hate to tell you this, but that’s a lot of choices. Just because you were raised as a Christian doesn’t mean those other religions are wrong. It just means that other cultures developed different religions.

            Why everyone always assumes their religion is the only right one is beyond me, but by all means, continue believing in something that has absolutely no proof to support.

          • pastoredsmith

            Say it all you wish, repetition does not make it true. At least in this case, the more you spout the more you reveal that you are strictly guessing about me and you want to jab me with more insults. Not interested.
            You missed again. My mother and you have one thing in common. She hates God, too. Try again. It was my choice, nobody persuaded me. So, you missed again.
            The reason I know there is only one choice is because I’ve compared counterfeits, including atheism to Christianity. Most other false religions counterfeit Christianity and the Bible. Even atheism is all about opposing God. That’s where it started. And, that is where you people focus your attention. Missed again.
            Yes, all false religions claim theirs is the only way, but just as all of them do, they copied that from Christianity. God declares that He is the One and Only God. He is the only God with proof to substantiate His claims. All others are like atheism, just man’s wild imagination.
            Again, you argue as though your words are accurate; yet by your own “free thinking” mantra, you demonstrate your own ignorance. Atheism has no basis for morality since you have nobody to be accountable to and nobody to set absolute morals or a ruler to measure what is right and what is wrong. You have no basis for purpose since it is all determined within the confines of your flawed human mind that only sees one thing, place, etc. at a time. Your imagination about what happens after life ends is limited to your own colorful descriptions of returning to “mother earth.” You cannot explain the complexity of the Universe nor how it is that you can breathe without thinking about it, or how your heart beat is automatic. Or how all people die and nobody lives forever. You have no answers for the really important questions, and you sit there in judgment of me?
            You say it is all about belief. Go ahead and say it. Atheist talking point #4. “Faith is only concocted in man’s mind and is the only basis for Christian faith.” No, wrong again. Faith is not the only basis for Christianity. There is also science. Honest science proves Creation and God’s existence beyond any shadow of a doubt.
            And, you cannot disprove any of my statements. Especially given the fact that it would be your human imagination that is trying to accomplish it. No small minded human imagination can disprove, discredit nor truly disbelieve in the existence of God and His handiwork. You can spout, but you can’t destroy the fact that God is real and He loves you.
            There is no hatred in the Gospel. The hatred lies inside the human heart, and only a true believer in Christ who constantly is on guard protecting his heart from the evils in the world penetrating it can live above anger and hate. There are many Christians who do exactly that. Can you say you know any atheists who never hate people? I don’t know any.

          • Deina

            And have these Wiccans, Rastafarians & Satanists been saying public prayers at the podium? Do you have a link?

            Not that it’s any of your business, but I went to school in Oregon. And yes, the pharmacist who attended our church was a Gideon. There were probably more, but I specifically remember his lapel pin. So it’s not because they weren’t in the area.

          • pastoredsmith

            Actually, I’d like to hear you prove that these people are denied access based on qualifications. Valedictorians and Salutatorians at graduation are given equal access based on their qualifications, not on their religion.

          • Deina

            I tried answering you several hours ago, but for some unknown reason the powers that be keep hijacking my posts, even though they contain no vulgarities nor personal attacks.

            At any rate, you are the one whining that Christians are not allowed to say prayers at such events, yet others are; therefore it is incumbent on you to prove it!

            Strictly to humor you, I did a handful of searches & found nothing to substantiate your claim.

          • pastoredsmith

            Whine? Listen to yourself if you want to hear whining. I am under no obligation to educate you. You need to look a bit closer. The discrimination is there…..

          • Deina

            It’s your monkey & your circus.

            If you won’t bother proving your allegations, then we’ll just assume you’re full of crap & move on.

            Is that what they taught you in seminary, to “spread the gospel” via logical fallacies, like this argumentum ad ignorantiam?

            Or did you just get your “pastor” title from that free website? That’s where I got mine, but you notice I don’t use the title to try to impress anyone.

          • pastoredsmith

            No, it’s your lack of education and living with your head in the sand. If you don’t understand religious freedoms that are being squelched in this country; from the military, the government and about everywhere in the public arena, you just won’t ever see it. It’s up to you to look….
            I didn’t go to seminary, and your insults are not appreciated. Have a wonderful life.

          • Deina

            You can’t prove your argument, so you blame me, & claim “victimhood”!

            I do hope you attach a link to this discussion to any resumes you send out – and start learning to live on food stamps.

            And don’t act all surprised & crap when you get to the Pearly Gate & Jesus says “I never knew you.”

          • pastoredsmith

            I will pray that God helps you to get the hatred and anger issues you obviously have under control. It is not me who is angry. It is you.

          • Deina

            It’s your lie, tell it any way you want…

          • Paul Hiett

            I’m sorry, but how can you claim that Christians have been “run over” since we all know, as fact, that Christianity has been the persecution of atheists, gays, and members of other religions since 313 AD? I can point to the fact that Christians used to burn atheists and gay people. You’ve tried to make atheism illegal in the US, and have succeeded in some states in the past. There are still laws in some states that atheists can’t run for office. Additionally, you have outlawed sodomy in some places.

            Make no mistake, Christians in the US have no clue what real persecution is, because you have been the ones doing it for so long that you’ve now decided that anyone who stands up to your bullying tactics is “hating” on Christianity. That simply isn’t the case.

            As long as this country supports the rights of ALL citizens to live free from the religious beliefs of others, we will continue to ensure those rights are enforced. Believe it or not, those rights protect EVERYONE, not just Christians.

          • Coach

            It’s not possible for ALL citizens to live free from the religious beliefs of others, nor to enforce everyone’s rights. The belief in killing babies inside the mother’s womb is enforced on those of us who oppose it. Marriage in general is a representation of religious beliefs, so you have to completely get rid of marriage. Telling someone not to steal my car is based on my belief that stealing is wrong, should we step back and allow people to steal freely? What about prostitution? Schools are against teaching children to abstain from sex, who’s to say the middle school student can’t make money from it?

            The perfect society that people dream of, free from God, Christians, and Christian influence only exists in hell, but the food you eat, water you drink, and air you breath belongs to God. John 5:28-29 28 “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”

            Losing rights as a Christian in America doesn’t bother me because through all of this, the light of God shines forth and His people are strengthened, plus this so-called Christian nation has embraced your atheism for decades. 1 John 2:8 “Again, a new commandment I write to you, which thing is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.” Through God’s grace, I will not stand silently as the world follows blindly after the plans of satan, but will warn many in hopes that a few may be saved.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            “The belief in killing babies inside the mother’s womb is enforced on those of us who oppose it.”

            If it is “enforced” on you, how is that you still are able to oppose it?

            “Marriage in general is a representation of religious beliefs,”

            Civil marriage contains no religious aspect.

            “Telling someone not to steal my car is based on my belief that stealing is wrong, should we step back and allow people to steal freely?”

            You are certainly free to tell someone whatever you care to as to why they should not steal your car. With that said, the reason it is ILLEGAL to do so is because our constitution provides for the right to personal property, therefore stealing is illegal.

            “What about prostitution?”

            What about it?

            “Schools are against teaching children to abstain from sex”

            In what schools is abstinence not an element of sexual education?

            “Losing rights as a Christian in America”

            What rights do you believe you have lost?

          • Rod W

            The U.S. Constitution is Godless. You cannot find where the constitution endorses any religion. Religion is only mentioned in the context of equal rights for all regardless of faith.

          • Paul Hiett

            That’s my point.

          • pastoredsmith

            In and of itself, the Constitution is a framework for a government being framed by the majority Christians in Congress and in US Government for a people that were as diverse as any nation on earth. The framers were very interested in a “religious-friendly” document, as expressed very clearly in the Declaration of Independence. And, the US Constitution did something very unbiblical, it allowed for the legalization of slavery. The Bible never CONDONES slavery, although it instructs slaves and their owners about God and how to love Him while slavery was going on. However, the very basis of Christianity is the FREEDOM from slavery of sin, and the freedom of slavery for those who are in shackles.
            The Freedom of Religion, as represented in the First Amendment, is clearly the forbidding of FEDERAL government to establish a religion AND to prohibit the free exercise thereof.
            Yes, it does not invoke Christianity per se, but the principles of Christianity are most assuredly interwoven throughout many of its principles indirectly.
            If you want to see direct Christian influence, read the Mayflower Compact, the Declaration of Independence and other documents. To deny that Christianity had a direct influence in the founding of this nation is to deny the truth of history.
            America was never declared by government to be a Christian Nation. It was demanded of by its people. However, even if the “trends” change such as they have today, there remains in place protections for the FREEDOM OF RELIGION and Freedom of Speech and of the Press. These and other fundamental freedoms are the very things that make America what she is as opposed to being like Russia, China or Cuba.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            “Yes, it does not invoke Christianity per se, but the principles of Christianity are most assuredly interwoven throughout many of its principles indirectly.”

            Really? The protections provided by the constitution directly violate 7 of the 10 commandments. If what you say were true, it would not.

        • Sandy Mallett Rekau

          Sorry Paul I disagree. The government is bending over backwards for muslims but not Christians. Where is your out cry there ???

          • Paul Hiett

            Can you give me some examples?

          • The Last Trump

            Look em up. The rest of us do.
            With the modern wonder that is the Internet and a simple google search, nobody should require examples.
            They’re just a click away. All the examples you could dream of. Surely you know how?
            This is not the first time you have asked for examples and then summarily disregarded what others provide. The games are getting old.

          • Paul Hiett

            Specific examples. Many of the claims I’ve seen on here have been lies, such as claiming Sharia Law is in place in Deerborn, or Texas.

            Please cite an example and I’ll discuss it.

          • The Last Trump

            No one cares if you’d like to discuss it!?
            Inform yourself. Or not.
            Personally, I enjoy watching you ignorant LGBT pushing atheists make fools of yourselves with every uninformed and misguided statement.
            Makes me look like a freakin’ genius! 🙂
            And results in truly intelligent people disregarding your sheer nonsense in favour of the easily researched facts.
            As you were, ignorant one. Dazzle us with your “knowledge”.
            I feel like some more entertainment!

          • Paul Hiett

            So you have no actual examples to cite.

            I didn’t think you did.

          • The Last Trump

            Soooo childish.
            Such a lazy troll you are!
            Again, the examples can be found at….are you ready?….here it comes…
            GOOGLE SEARCH! Knock yourself out. M0ron.
            You’re welcome.

          • Paul Hiett

            Can you please pick a specific example to discuss?

          • roald

            So you have nothing to offer. If you had, you would be rubbing Paul’s nose in it. If you want, I could provide a few examples that some have used, but then I would have to discredit them for the non-sense they are.

          • Deina

            In a nutshell:

            No, you don’t have any examples.

          • weasel1886

            You don’t have anything and you lie a lot.

          • The Last Trump

            G.O.O.G.L.E. S.E.A.R.C.H. !!?
            What is wrong with you trolls?
            Is it that you can’t read or can’t spell?
            Seriously embarrassing.
            (And yes. I lied about there being a google search that you can use to actually look up facts. M0ron.)

          • weasel1886

            You are such a great witness.

          • weasel1886

            How so ?

        • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

          No, this is what our founding fathers said:

          George Washington – First President of the United States of America

          “It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor.”

          – George Washington

          “Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable.”

          – George Washington

          We beseech [God] to pardon our national and other transgressions…

          – George Washington, Thanksgiving Proclamation 1789

          Oh, eternal and everlasting God, direct my thoughts, words and work. Wash away my sins in the immaculate blood of the Lamb and purge my heart by Thy Holy Spirit. Daily, frame me more and more in the likeness of Thy son, Jesus Christ, that living in Thy fear, and dying in Thy favor, I may in thy appointed time obtain the resurrection of the justified unto eternal life. Bless, O Lord, the whole race of mankind and let the world be filled with the knowledge of Thee and Thy son, Jesus Christ.

          – George Washington, Prayer

          True religion affords to government its surest support.

          – George Washington

          It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.

          – George Washington (this quote is unconfirmed)

          Samuel Adams – Signer of the Declaration of Independence

          I … [rely] upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins.

          – Samuel Adams

          We have this day [Fourth of July] restored the Sovereign to whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in Heaven, and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His Kingdom come.

          – Samuel Adams

          The name of the Lord (says the Scripture) is a strong tower; thither the righteous flee and are safe (Proverbs 18:10). Let us secure His favor and He will lead us through the journey of this life and at length receive us to a better.

          – Samuel Adams

          The rights of the colonists as Christians…may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutes of the Great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament.

          – Samuel Adams

          United States Congressional Endorsement of the Bible and God

          Congress printed a Bible for America and said:

          “The United States in Congress assembled … recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States … a neat edition of the Holy Scriptures for the use of schools.”

          – United States Congress 1782

          Congress passed this resolution:

          “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.”

          – United States Congress 1782

          By Law the United States Congress adds to US coinage:

          “In God We Trust”

          – United States Congress 1864

          John Adams -President of the United States of America, First Vice President, Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Signer of the Bill of Rights, and Signer of First Ammendment

          The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.

          – John Adams

          The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.

          – John Adams

          The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.

          – John Adams

          Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

          – John Adams

          I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world.

          – John Adams

          The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.

          – John Adams

          [The Fourth of July] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.

          – John Adams

          As the safety and prosperity of nations ultimately and essentially depend on the protection and the blessing of Almighty God, and the national acknowledgment of this truth is not only an indispensable duty which the people owe to Him.

          – John Adams

          We recognize no sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus.

          – John Adams and John Hancock (uncomfirmed quote)

          Abigail Adams – Wife of John Adams

          “The Scriptures tell us righteousness exalteth a Nation.”

          – Abigail Adams

          Patrick Henry – Early America Leader

          There is a book [the Bible] worth all the other books ever printed.

          – Patrick Henry

          It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

          – Patrick Henry (uncomfirmed quote)

          John Jay – First Chief-Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court

          Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty – as well as privilege and interest – of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.

          – John Jay

          The Bible is the best of all books, for it is the word of God and teaches us the way to be happy in this world and in the next. Continue therefore to read it and to regulate your life by its precepts.

          – John Jay

          John Hancock – Signer of the Declaration of Independence

          …that all may bow to the scepter of our Lord Jesus Christ and that the whole Earth may be filled with his glory.

          – John Hancock, as Governor of Massachusetts 1791

          We recognize no sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus.

          – John Adams and John Hancock (uncomformed quote)

          Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration of Independence

          “The only foundation for . . . a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.”

          – Benjamin Rush

          Let the children…be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education.

          – Benjamin Rush

          Christianity is the only true and perfect religion…

          – Benjamin Rush

          John Witherspoon – Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Continental Congress

          “He is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down on profanity and immorality of every kind. Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy to his country.”

          – John Witherspoon

          John Dickinson – Signer Constitution of the USA, Continental Congress

          “The rights essential to happiness. . . . We claim them from a higher source — from the King of kings and Lord of all the earth.”

          – John Dickinson

          Benjamin Franklin

          “Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.”

          – Benjamin Franklin

          Thomas Jefferson – President

          God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever.

          – Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Memorial

          The Christian religion is the best religion that has ever been given to man

          – Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Memorial

          Daniel Webster – Early American Politician

          Education is useless without the Bible.

          – Daniel Webster

          Noah Webster – “Schoolmaster of the Republic”

          Education is useless without the Bible. The Bible was America’s basic text book in all fields. God’s Word, contained in the Bible, has furnished all necessary rules to direct our conduct.

          – Noah Webster

          In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed … No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.

          – Noah Webster, Preface Noah Webster Dictionary, 1828

          Joseph Story – Supreme Court Justice

          “I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law … There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.”

          – Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, Harvard Speech, 1829

          United States of America National Anthem – Francis Scott Key

          “And this be our motto, ‘In God is our trust’”

          – USA National Anthem, Third Verse

          USA Constitution – First Ammendment

          “Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth…”

          – US Constitution, Before signature text declaring our Christian Nation

          Note: “Year of our Lord” means Jesus Christ is Lord of the USA. (Founding fathers didn’t use year of the Lord)

          “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion [Christian denomination], or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

          – US Constitution, First Ammendment (Christian religious freedom brackets added)

          Andrew Jackson – President of the United States of America

          “[The Bible] is the rock on which our Republic rests.”

          – Andrew Jackson

          Abraham Lincoln – President of the United States of America

          In regards to this great Book [the Bible], I have but to say it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Savior gave to the world was communicated through this Book. But for it we could not know right from wrong. All things most desirable for man’s welfare, here and hereafter, are found portrayed in it.

          – Abraham Lincoln

          I am busily engaged in study of the Bible.

          – Abraham Lincoln

          This nation under God

          – Abraham Lincoln, Gettysberg Address and inscribed on Lincoln Memorial

          And whereas it is the duty of nations as well as of men, to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God … and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord.

          – Abraham Lincoln

          Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh. (Matthew 18:7)

          – Abraham Lincoln, Lincoln Memorial

          We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.

          – Abraham Lincoln, Lincoln Memorial

          Whereas, the Senate of the United States, devoutly recognizing the Supreme Authority and just Government of Almighty God, in all the affairs of men and of nations, has, by a resolution, requested the President to designate and set apart a day for National prayer and humiliation…

          – Abraham Lincoln

          “Intelligence, patriotism, Christianity, and a firm reliance on Him who has never yet forsaken this favored land, are still competent to adjust in the best way all our present difficulties.”

          – Abraham Lincoln, President, March 4, 1861 inaugural address

          United States Supreme Court

          “This is a Christian nation”

          – United States Supreme Court Decision in Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 1892

          “Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian…This is a Christian nation”

          – United States Supreme Court Decision in Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 1892

          Washington Monument

          Holiness to the Lord (Exodus 28:26, 30:30, Isaiah 23:18, Zechariah 14:20)

          – Washington Monument

          Search the Scriptures (John 5:39)

          – Washington Monument

          The memory of the just is blessed (Proverbs 10:7)

          – Washington Monument

          May Heaven to this Union continue its beneficence

          – Washington Monument

          In God We Trust

          – Washington Monument

          “Praise be to God” (engraved on the monument’s capstone in Latin as “Laus Deo”)

          – Washington Monument

          James Madison – A Primary Author of the Constitution of the United States of America

          “We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments.”

          – James Madison

          “Religion [is] the basis and foundation of Government”

          – James Madison

          “Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ.”

          – James Madison

          Northwest Ordinance – July 13, 1787

          Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.

          – Northwest Ordinance, Article 3

          Original Harvard University Student Handbook 1636

          Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well: the main end of his life and studies is “to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life” (John 17.3), and therefore to lay Christ in the bottom, as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and learning. And seeing the Lord only giveth wisdom, let everyone seriously set himself by prayer in secret to seek it of Him (Prov. 2.3).

          – Original Harvard University Student Handbook

          William McGuffy – author of McGuffy Reader, which was used for over 100 years in American schools as the primary textbook

          The Christian religion is the religion of our country. From it are derived our nation, on the character of God, on the great moral Governor of the universe. On its doctrines are founded the peculiarities of our free Institutions. From no source has this author drawn more conspicuously than from the sacred Scriptures. From all these extracts from the Bible, I make no apology.

          – William McGuffy, author of McGuffy Reader

          Congress – First Prayer in Congress

          O LORD, OUR HEAVENLY FATHER, high and mighty King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, who dost from Thy throne behold all the dwellers on earth, and reignest with power supreme and uncontrolled over all the kingdoms, empires and governments; look down in mercy we beseech Thee, on these American States, who have fled to Thee from the rod of the oppressor, and thrown themselves on Thy gracious protection, desiring henceforth to be dependent only on Thee; to Thee they have appealed for the righteousness of their cause; to Thee do they now look up for that countenance and support which Thou alone canst give; take them, therefore, Heavenly Father, under Thy nurturing care; give them wisdom in council and valor in the field; defeat the malicious design of our cruel adversaries; convince them of the unrighteousness of their cause; and if they persist in their sanguinary purpose, O let the voice of Thy own unerring justice, sounding in their hearts, constrain them to drop the weapons of war from their unnerved hands in the day of battle! Be Thou present, O God of wisdom, and direct the counsels of this honorable assembly; enable them to settle things on the best and surest foundation, that the scene of blood may be speedily closed, that order, harmony and peace may be effectually restored, and truth and justice, religion and piety prevail and flourish among Thy people. Preserve the health of their bodies and vigor of their minds; shower down on them, and the millions they here represent, such temporal blessings as Thou seest expedient for them in this world, and crown them with everlasting glory in the world to come. All this we ask in the name and through the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son, Our Savior. Amen.

          – First Prayer in Congress September 7, 1774, Jacob Duche, Carpenters Hall, Philadelphia

          Calvin Coolidge- President of the United States of America

          “The foundations of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country.”

          – Calvin Coolidge

          Harry S. Truman – President of the United States of America

          “The fundamental basis of this Nation’s law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings which we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul.”

          – Harry S. Truman

          “This Nation was established by men who believed in God. … You will see the evidence of this deep religious faith on every hand.’

          – Harry S. Truman

          Dwight D. Eisenhower – President of the United States of America

          “Without God there could be no American form of government, nor an American way of life. Recognition of the Supreme Being is the first, the most basic, expression of Americanism. Thus, the founding fathers of America saw it, and thus with God’s help, it will continue to be.”

          – Dwight D. Eisenhower

          “I believe that the next half century will determine if we will advance the cause of Christian civilization or revert to the horrors of brutal paganism.”

          – Theodore Roosevelt, President

          “This is a Christian nation.”

          – Harry Truman, President

          “[The United States is] founded on the principles of Christianity”

          – Franklin D. Roosevelt, President

          Ronald Reagan – President of the United States of America

          Of the many influences that have shaped the United States into a distinctive nation and people, none may be said to be more fundamental and enduring than the Bible.

          – Ronald Reagan

          Deep religious beliefs stemming from the Old and New Testaments of the Bible inspired many of the early settlers of our country, providing them with the strength, character, convictions, and faith necessary to withstand great hardship and danger in this new and rugged land. These shared beliefs helped forge a sense of common purpose among the widely dispersed colonies — a sense of community which laid the foundation for the spirit of nationhood that was to develop in later decades.

          – Ronald Reagan

          The Bible and its teachings helped form the basis for the Founding Fathers’ abiding belief in the inalienable rights of the individual, rights which they found implicit in the Bible’s teachings of the inherent worth and dignity of each individual. This same sense of man patterned the convictions of those who framed the English system of law inherited by our own Nation, as well as the ideals set forth in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

          – Ronald Reagan

          For centuries the Bible’s emphasis on compassion and love for our neighbor has inspired institutional and governmental expressions of benevolent outreach such as private charity, the establishment of schools and hospitals, and the abolition of slavery.

          – Ronald Reagan

          “The Congress of the United States, in recognition of the unique contribution of the Bible in shaping the history and character of this Nation, and so many of its citizens, has by Senate Joint Resolution 165 authorized and requested the President to designate the year 1983 as the ‘Year of the Bible.’”‘

          – Ronald Reagan

          Inside the Bible’s pages lie the answers to all the problems that mankind has ever known. I hope Americans will read and study the Bible.

          – Ronald Reagan

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            How fortunate we are that the founding fathers were wise enough to understand how it important it was to separate their personal religious beliefs from the legal foundations and protections of our constitution.

            Given how so many people seem to have a hard time being able to do that even in this day and age, the wisdom of the founders was truly extraordinary.

          • The Last Trump

            So true! How fortunate YOU are that your CHRISTIAN forefathers were so instilled with wisdom to leave to you a country that has been the envy of the world. Gotta love those CHRISTIAN founding fathers! Creating a country so free! Yes, those CHRISTIAN founding fathers were something else, weren’t they! Thank GOD (whoops! YOU don’t believe in Him do you? Sorry…) that they were CHRISTIAN and not just another of many godless governments who enslave and kill more of their own people than war itself!
            Whoo eee! Dodged a bullet there, huh?
            Gee…too bad America is now unrecognizable from her former self and turning her back on all the traditions and principles that once made her so great. And becoming just another godless nation whose leaders will have no qualms whatsoever about enslaving and slaughtering her citizens once the State becomes god to these fools.
            Yep, real shame. But thank you CHRISTIAN founding fathers!
            YOU GUYS did a phenomenal job! Sorry we let it all go to sh!t.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            “How fortunate YOU are that your CHRISTIAN forefathers were so instilled with wisdom”

            Not just the Christian ones – the Deists as well. The latter having a greater influence on the outcome.

            “Gotta love those CHRISTIAN founding fathers!”

            I certainly love what they accomplished, along with what the Deist ones accomplished, at least regarding the structure of the country, our freedom, liberty, and equality. Some of their personal views and behaviors I am not a fan of.

            “whoops! YOU don’t believe in Him do you?”

            Yes, I do.

            “Dodged a bullet there, huh?”

            Very fortunate.

            “turning her back on all the traditions and principles that once made her so great.”

            Such as?

            “And becoming just another godless nation”

            Given that over 80% of the population indicates a belief in a supreme being, your statement has no validity.

            “whose leaders will have no qualms whatsoever about enslaving and slaughtering her citizens once the State becomes god to these fools.”

            Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? What would be the benefit to the state of enslaving and slaughtering citizens?

            “But thank you CHRISTIAN founding fathers!”

            And the Deist ones.

            “YOU GUYS did a phenomenal job!”

            Agreed. Particularly in their wisdom to not base our freedoms, liberties, and protections on the Christian faith.

            “Sorry we let it all go to sh!t.”

            How so?

          • MisterPine

            You actually believe Obama is a Muslim. I just thought I’d stop in and laugh at you for that. Oh and your fan page is on fire. Carry on.

          • The Last Trump

            You DIDN’T KNOW Obama was Muslim!!?
            Wow, Pinester! Where you been, under a rock?
            Aint’t nobody around who believes Obama is anything BUT Muslim.
            How embarrassing! Explains a lot though.

          • weasel1886

            What are you ?

          • The Last Trump

            Human.
            What are you? Weasel?

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            How could someone not know that he is a Muslim?!? He has quoted the Quran far more than the Bible.

          • MisterPine

            No he hasn’t.

          • MisterPine

            He’s not a Muslim, Rumpy.
            Just look it up on any non-crazy, non-conspiracy theorist website. Also ask a few non-crazy people.

          • roald

            Not a good Muslim. Doesn’t he have a dog (unclean), loves spam (non-halal pork), and has only one wife? I have never heard of him praying 5 times a day.

            Separately, what difference does his religion make and why couldn’t an American Muslim be a good president?

          • gods need not apply

            You do remember that the original colonists were escaping the cruel rule of a Christian king right?

          • MisterPine

            Here’s what some people had to say in response to this at fstdt dot com:

            christian_leftie

            Come on, I’m not even from the right continent and even I know the “founding fathers” where not all Christians, many being simple Deists, and some not evn beng what some sects would consider Christian these days (non-trinitarians, etc).

            Ivurm

            Americans, Why do you act like the opinions of long dead people should have defacto control over your policies? It’s
            all very Warhammer 40,000, isn’t it.

            Pule Thamex

            Gee … uh, you are barking mad there boy! Whoo eee! Who’d a thunk it!

            Lemonaidemon

            Gotta love that freedom the CHRISTIAN forefathers gave us after killing most of the Indians and clearing the land with slave labor. Not like today when we’re “enslaving and slaughtering” our own citizens with Obamacare and same sex marriage.

            Goomy pls

            Patrick Henry and John Jay were the closest thing to Christian founding fathers we had. Still, I doubt either of them was, religiously speaking, in the crazy camp.

            Indicible

            “a country that has been the envy of the world”

            What, America? Nope. Perfectly fine in Europe, thank you sir.
            As for being christian, to believe that, you have to (once
            again) ignore all proof to the contrary, in their letters, speeches, behaviour and actions.

            Swede

            You mean “those Deist, atheist and Christian founding fathers”, right?

            God-fearing governments manage to enslave and kill more than war itself, too. Ask the Native Americans…

            Most atheists are brought up in religious environments and still use expressions like “Thank God”.

            tfaddict

            @Ivurm
            – Most of us don’t. It’s just a quintillion fundies that think that.

            The country was, according to Trumpy here, founded on principles of religious freedom and personal liberty. But when that freedom and liberty is expanded upon, that is turning away from your principles and leads to slavery.

            What.

            Also can I just point out that here in the UK I don’t feel particularly enslaved, and (a few regrettable instances notwithstanding) we have rather a good track record of not slaughtering our own people.

            Kanna

            Uh…if you will recall, slavery existed under those mostly-CHRISTIAN founding fathers, who did their best to ensure that
            THEY were free but never mind those plantation workers. So knock off all that blether about “enslaving”.

            The Crimson Ghost

            I think the US stopped being enviable the day that Kennedy got his head blown off in Dallas. If not then, than surely that fateful day when the Gipper was given the keys to the WH.

            The rest of this is just more of the same hyper-patriotic garbage, with unhealthy amounts of crazed religion thrown in. Nothing to see here.

            “Creating a country so free!”

            Yeah, just ask the Native Americans how “free” it was after you “christian” religidiots showed up…

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            And as an add note, how the founding fathers considered God in their thinking. I found that to be very refreshing, as well as their use of the Bible in their discussions and comments.

          • roald

            Perhaps not the god you think. Many were deists. Most importantly, they were able to see that separation of state and religion was good.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            You mean Jefferson was a Deist, not most of them. Even Jefferson said these things:

            Unlike others deists of his time, Jefferson was enamored by the example set by Jesus Christ. While he may not have accepted Jesus’ divinity, he admired his teachings on morality. In a letter written in 1819, Jefferson told a friend that the teachings of Jesus were the “outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man.”

            In another letter, he wrote, “I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.”

            In 1820, Jefferson made another attempt to recreate the Bible. He pasted Greek, Latin, French, and English versions of the New Testament together, to present a comprehensive view of the text. His book, officially titled The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, eventually came to be called the Jefferson Bible.

            Jefferson was involved in local churches throughout his life, offering donations and staking out seats in the pews for him and his private secretary. Henry S. Randall, a Jefferson biographer, wrote that Jefferson “attended church with as much regularity as most of the members of the congregation — sometimes going alone on horseback, when his family remained at home.”

            In his fight for the separation of church and state, Jefferson befriended Baptist minister John Leland. As a Baptist in predominantly Anglican New England, Leland had often witnessed the persecution of his fellow clergymen. Like Jefferson, Leland was vehemently opposed to any state support of religion.

            In 1802, Leland presented Jefferson with a pungent gift — a giant wheel of cheese. The minister placed Jefferson’s favorite quote on its red crust: “Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.”

            Jefferson must have liked the outlandish gift. On Jan. 1, 1802, Jefferson — then the president — invited Leland and his wheel of “mammoth cheese” to the White House.

            The iftar is the evening meal eaten by Muslims to break the fast during the holy month of Ramadan. On Dec. 9, 1805, Jefferson invited Sidi Soliman Mellimelli, a Tunisian representative, to the White House. Meal time was usually set at 3:30 p.m., but Jefferson moved it back to “precisely at sunset,” to accommodate the religious beliefs of his guest.

            According to the State Department, Jefferson’s knowledge about Islam “likely came from his legal studies of natural law.”

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            I find it very telling that the founders, despite their personal religious beliefs, had the wisdom not to include religion, God, or Christianity in the constitution.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            (smile)

          • weasel1886

            The Bible is the cause and solution to all our problems.
            It’s the follows that mess things up

          • The Last Trump

            I think you meant, “followers”?
            You really can’t read and write, can you? 😉

          • Paul Hiett

            I really don’t think you want to get into an educational argument on this site, considering the grammatical…or lack thereof…abilities of many of your fellow Christians.

          • weasel1886

            So kill me. Mr Christian

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I’m not sure I understand that statement, but would like to know what you are trying to say. Thanks for the input.

          • weasel1886

            We have used the Bible for great good and great evil.
            If we would use it for good it would solve many of our problems. We have also used it for evil and when we do it has caused untold misery and death

          • roald

            St. Ronnie was a founder?

            You tried that nonsense earlier. These quotes are a mix of mis-quotes and mis-attributions, taken out of context, or not reflecting the founders’ belief that religion should guide government. I provide 30+ quotes that showed the founders believed in separation. Here are some quotes from John Kennedy on that subject, or do you reject him because he was a Catholic?

            “It is my firm belief that there should be separation of church and state as we understand it in the United States — that is, that both church and state should be free to operate, without interference from each other in their respective areas of jurisdiction. We live in a liberal, democratic society which embraces wide varieties of belief and disbelief. There is no doubt in my mind that the pluralism which has developed under our Constitution, providing as it does a framework within which diverse opinions can exist side by side and by their interaction enrich the whole, is the most ideal system yet devised by
            man. I cannot conceive of a set of circumstances which would lead me to a different conclusion.” — letter to Glenn L. Archer, 23 February 1959

            “Whatever one’s religion in his private life may be, for the
            officeholder, nothing takes precedence over his oath to uphold the Constitution and all its parts — including the First Amendment and the strict separation of church and state.” — Interview, Look, 3 March 1959

            “I believe the American people are more concerned with a man’s views and abilities than with the church to which he belongs. I believe the founding fathers meant it when they provided in Article VI of the Constitution that there should be no religious test for public office. And I believe that the American people mean to adhere to those principles today.” — address to the American Society of Newspaper Editors, 21 April 1960

            “I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute–where no Catholic prelate would tell the President (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote–where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference–and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the President who might appoint him or the people who might elect him.

            “I believe in an America that is officially neither Catholic,
            Protestant nor Jewish–where no public official either requests or accepts instructions on public policy from the Pope, the National Council of Churches or any other ecclesiastical source–where no religious body seeks to impose its will directly or indirectly upon the general populace or the public acts of its officials–and where religious liberty is so indivisible that an act against one church is treated as an act against all.

            “For while this year it may be a Catholic against whom the finger of suspicion is pointed, in other years it has been, and may someday be again, a Jew–or a Quaker–or a Unitarian–or a Baptist. It was Virginia’s harassment of Baptist preachers, for example, that helped lead to Jefferson’s statute of religious freedom. Today I may be the victim–but tomorrow it may be you–until the whole fabric of our harmonious society is ripped at a time of great national peril.

            “Finally, I believe in an America where religious intolerance
            will someday end–where all men and all churches are treated as equal–where every man has the same right to attend or not attend the church of his choice–where there is no Catholic vote, no anti-Catholic vote, no bloc voting of any kind–and where Catholics, Protestants and Jews, at both the lay and pastoral level, will refrain from those attitudes of disdain and division which have so often marred their works in the past, and promote instead the American ideal of brotherhood.

            “That is the kind of America in which I believe. And it
            represents the kind of Presidency in which I believe–a great office that must neither be humbled by making it the instrument of any one religious group nor tarnished by arbitrarily withholding its occupancy from the members of any one religious group. I believe in a President whose religious views are his own private affair, neither imposed by him upon the nation or imposed by the nation upon him as a condition to
            holding that office.

            “I would not look with favor upon a President working to subvert
            the first amendment’s guarantees of religious liberty. Nor would our system of checks and balances permit him to do so–and neither do I look with favor upon those who would work to subvert Article VI of the Constitution by requiring a religious test–even by indirection–for it. If they disagree with that safeguard they should be out openly working to repeal it.” — address to the Ministerial Association of Greater
            Houston, 12 September 1960

            “If my church attempted to influence me in a way which was improper or which affected adversely my responsibilities as a public servant sworn to uphold the Constitution, then I would reply to them that this was an improper action on their part. It was one to which I could not subscribe.” — press conference, Houston, Texas, 12 September 1960

            “We do not want an official state church. If ninety-nine percent of the population were Catholics, I would still be opposed to it. I do not want civil power combined with religious power. I want to make it clear that I am committed as a matter of deep personal conviction to separation.”
            — interview, CBS-TV, Face the Nation, 30 October 1960

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I should have said most of the comments from the article. However, they said what they said and that is what I consider to be important.

          • roald

            I have no problem with the accurate, in context quotes. You appear to be mixing personal beliefs with behavior as a representative of the State.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            You don’t think that beliefs of a personal nature have to do with representatives and their positions? If you were a representative would your beliefs be a part of you, and thus a part of your decision making abilities? I’m certain that quotes of this nature were stated for a reason since they were in public office at that time. Especially in the case of Lincoln. Freeing black people from slavery was as much a moral decision based on Lincoln’s belief in God and he was likely killed for that reason. Would you agree with that?

          • roald

            I believe that the best politicians are those who can separate their faith from their actions while acting as representatives of the State. you don’t have to be religious to know that slavery is morally wrong. Point in fact, it helps not to be religious to know that. The Bible accepts slavery. It accepts treating women as property. It accepts killing people for acting on their sexual orientation. I do not find any of those beliefs to be moral.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            You have stated that before to me. If you were to look at our history books you would see the same things you say the Bible presents. Why is that? I believe its because it’s the background of society at that particular time. To be a serious reader and believer that the Bible represents and is instruction for Morality is obvious enough when putting the framework into proper context. I think we have also discussed that previously. So my question to you would be this: What book would you recommend that represents your morality? Self morality doesn’t incorporate all people as does the Bible. If you were to contemplate God as God, would you have any power at all against the god you are suggesting. If God were really not about love do you think you would even exist, if he so decides to force you into compliance? Your description comes without reasoning. I say that not to offend, I say that because the argument fails. If you read the four gospels and what Jesus said would you understand the message? You deny God’s existence, therefore you have no knowledge who, what, or why God does and did what he did.

          • roald

            I don’t need a book to teach me morality. The Bible mixes moral lessons with naked power grabs with immoral actions.

            I exist because my parents loved each other. No need for religion.

            How about returning to the main point, successful leaders can separate their religious beliefs from the laws of the nation they lead.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            As to the first of your statement, so does our history books. Are your parents atheists or non-believers? Successful leaders can just as well incorporate their beliefs and worldviews into their decisions. I think that is shown throughout our history. I’ve suggested a book called Persecution – by David Limbaugh (not related to Rush). He explains in detail how our nation was conceived, what schools were about, a whole variety of things that you can google and download via pdf. If you want some literal truths, I think you will find the book very informative.

          • roald

            They can incorporate their beliefs and world views to the extent they do not violate this nation’s laws or Constitution. If you want an example of that, re-read the Kennedy quotes. If you want a bad example, check out Scalia’s opinions. He held that a cross is not a symbol of Christianity.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Exert:

            You’ll note there is no language in either-or anywhere else in the Constitution-mandating a wall of separation between church and state. That phrase, as we’ll see in Chapter One, comes from a letter of Thomas Jefferson, several years after the Constitution and Bill of Rights were well in place. Moreover, the phrase has been taken out of context, distorting what Jefferson meant. Nevertheless, those advocating a strict separation (often referred to in this book as “separationists”), point to the “Establishment Clause” as evidence the framers intended a strict separation.

            But it’s important to understand that both clauses, the establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause, were adopted by the framers for the explicit purpose of promoting, not suppressing religious freedom. That may be obvious with the Free Exercise Clause-its literal language says as much-but people tend to overlook it with the Establishment Clause. The purpose of the Establishment Clause was to prevent the federal government from establishing a particular denominational religion that would serve to inhibit our religious freedoms; it was not intended to keep Christianity out of the public square. Yet today the Establishment Clause is routinely used to suppress people’s free exercise rights of religion in our schools and in public life.

            Of course, one of the problems of applying original intent analysis to these issues is that the relationship between government and education today is radically different from how it was at the time of the nation’s founding.

            In the first place, the Establishment Clause only restricted the federal government, not the states. Its language makes that quite clear, “Congress shall make no law…” At the time of the ratification of the First Amendment, many states in fact had state-established religions. There is no better evidence-besides its plain language-that the Establishment Clause was never intended to prevent state governments from establishing their own religions. Again, the language of the clause is instructive. “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.” That clearly meant that the federal government was precluded from establishing a national religion, but also that the federal government was precluded from interfering with the right of individual states to do as they pleased respecting the establishment of their own religions

          • roald

            SCOTUS seems to disagree with you on the intent of the founders. We do seem to be back to my original premise, that this nation guarantees freedom of religion in the public square and prohibits representatives of the State from promoting any or no religion while representing the State. As in any exhibition of religion, there will be conflicts, which are resolved by the courts. Human sacrifice is not allowed. Using your religious beliefs to discriminate against a group if you providing a service to the public is not allowed. You do recall that sincere religious beliefs were cited to support slavery and racial discrimination.

            I will ask again and hope that I get an answer. Why are Christians so insecure that they have to promote their religion every chance they get.

          • gods need not apply

            Ditto to what UmustBKiddinMe said. I don’t think I could say it any better.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            What did he say?

          • gods need not apply

            Actually, I pretty much agree with everything he says. I don’t remember what this particular comment was referring to, sorry.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Thats ok. Have a great day!

          • gods need not apply

            You too!

            PS – I know we are on different sides of the fence, but I’ve enjoyed the non poop flinging discussion 🙂

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            me too, (smile)

      • Bolvon72

        I prefer true Scotsmen.

      • FoJC_Forever

        Paul Hiett is a troll and extreme online activist. He’s part of a group that seeks out Christian websites containing comment sections (or forums) and harasses Christians.

        He is a boldface liar with no problems spreading Satan’s messages of ungodliness and deceit.

        • Paul Hiett

          Ah yes, the “Christian” method of responding. Insult the poster, ignore the points.

          Spreading the love early today, I see.

          • pastoredsmith

            Yes, FoJC_Forever, I know who Paul is. He is an atheist who is full of hatred for God and His people. He denies this, but spends all his time spouting hatred on Christian sites. He is judgmental, angry and loves to taunt Christians. If he can’t win the debate, he hurls insults, such as “Spreading the love early today, I see..” Paul, if you hate freedom of religion so much, why don’t you move to a country where religion is prohibited. China would be a good example. Or, take off to Iran. The “tolerant” Muslims there would behead you if you don’t convert to their false religion. You have freedom to not believe in God, and to do what you do because of freedom of religion. Whether you acknowledge that or not.

          • Paul Hiett

            Wait a minute…he insults me, and you think I’m insulting him and spreading “hate”????

          • Deina

            That’s because he can’t respond to your points, either.

          • Paul Hiett

            It amazes me how often they result to personal attacks rather than address the points of the posts.

          • MisterPine

            Paul, check out Last Trump’s page on fstdt. It’s on fire. I can’t post the web address anymore because they seem not to allow it but I’m sure you know where it is.

          • The Last Trump

            I’m sure he knows where it is too! Haters of a feather stalk together! That’s fstdt dot com for those of you who wouldn’t know and don’t visit fascist websites that promote hate and intolerance.
            Strange that any forum would block such a loving and tolerant website such as yours, eh Pinester?
            Not fooling anybody. Your own hate gives you away! 🙂

          • MisterPine

            Haters? It’s not a hate site. It’s an ENTERTAINMENT site. Where else on the net can you go for a one-stop-shop for fundamentalist twaddle of all stripes? It’s a riot, every facepalming, braincell-killing, science-denying second of it. If people want hate, they can go to chick dot com or gotquestions dot org or jesus-is-savior dot com. FSTDT is a showcase of reality deniers.

          • Paul Hiett

            All links are being blocked, Trump, not just that one.

          • The Last Trump

            Yes, Paul Hiett IS a Christian website troll and extreme online activist. This poor misguided soul is clearly starved for attention and addicted to ceaseless argument. His hypocrisy is glaring as he seeks out Christians to harass about intolerance and hate while crying, “live and let live”!? Can you imagine if Christians stalked gay websites to harass gays and lesbians about their hate and intolerance and the need to change their beliefs?! Shameful.

            Don’t bother responding to Paul or providing him with links to actual facts and sound information. He’s just not interested.
            Just revisit ANY of the previous articles here and judge for yourselves. Don’t waste your time on this LGBT troll.

          • Paul Hiett

            Christians don’t need to “stalk” a website, Trump, you folks display your hate and intolerance everywhere on a daily basis. Don’t believe me? Mcguffey High School.

          • Brad Will

            You don’t want God, Paul? Fine, go with all the whores, drunks, child molesters, murderers, lovers of money, masturbating porn-lovers, sodomites, filthy potty mouths, liars, atheists, and every other devilish sinner. You’ll all burn in Hell.

            No more websites for you to hang around on.
            Just fire.
            No more atheists around to stroke your ego.
            Just fire.
            No more comfort or clean air for you to sit and enjoy.
            Just fire.
            No more goals, or dreams to work towards.
            Just fire.
            No more hope for a pleasant experience in the flesh.
            Just fire.
            No more water for you to drink and feel refreshed.
            Just fire.

            Repent, or perish.
            Stop sinning, or burn in Hell.
            Comply with God, or fry.

          • MisterPine

            Actually you’re off your rocker Rumpy, Paul Hiett’s posts are always clear and concise and backed up with facts, unlike your smug, self-satisfied yet paranoid schizophrenic nightmares.

          • The Last Trump

            Oh look! It’s Paul’s fascist comrade, Mister Intolerance himself!
            Paul’s got nothing on THIS guy! Talk about your Christian website trolls. Haters of a feather do stalk Christian websites together, eh intolerant one?
            Folks, for a special treat be sure to check out MisterPine’s website of hate and intolerance. Nothing says hate like these guys!
            That’s fstdt dot com. Where haters go to hate!
            Tell ’em MisterPine sent you and you get a free robe with hood! 😉

          • MisterPine

            You flatter me, Rumpy, by suggesting fstdt dot com is my website. It’s been around longer than I knew what a Christian fundamentalist even WAS. Think of it as a website for collectors and enthusiasts of mind-numbing stupidity, conspiracy theories, and paranoid revenge fantasies, courtesy of the radical Christian right – the Christians for whom simply following the teachings of Christ doesn’t provide enough spleen-venting. You’re a rare and valuable specimen based on some of the things you come out with…HOO boy! You’re my Stradivarius, my Mona Lisa, my Sistine Chapel. All I have to do is wait for you to rant, and catch every word with my Ctrl-C. You can’t BUY entertainment like that.

      • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

        This might be more appropriate:

        George Washington – First President of the United States of America

        “It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor.”

        – George Washington

        “Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable.”

        – George Washington

        We beseech [God] to pardon our national and other transgressions…

        – George Washington, Thanksgiving Proclamation 1789

        Oh, eternal and everlasting God, direct my thoughts, words and work. Wash away my sins in the immaculate blood of the Lamb and purge my heart by Thy Holy Spirit. Daily, frame me more and more in the likeness of Thy son, Jesus Christ, that living in Thy fear, and dying in Thy favor, I may in thy appointed time obtain the resurrection of the justified unto eternal life. Bless, O Lord, the whole race of mankind and let the world be filled with the knowledge of Thee and Thy son, Jesus Christ.

        – George Washington, Prayer

        True religion affords to government its surest support.

        – George Washington

        It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.

        – George Washington (this quote is unconfirmed)

        Samuel Adams – Signer of the Declaration of Independence

        I … [rely] upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins.

        – Samuel Adams

        We have this day [Fourth of July] restored the Sovereign to whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in Heaven, and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His Kingdom come.

        – Samuel Adams

        The name of the Lord (says the Scripture) is a strong tower; thither the righteous flee and are safe (Proverbs 18:10). Let us secure His favor and He will lead us through the journey of this life and at length receive us to a better.

        – Samuel Adams

        The rights of the colonists as Christians…may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutes of the Great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament.

        – Samuel Adams

        United States Congressional Endorsement of the Bible and God

        Congress printed a Bible for America and said:

        “The United States in Congress assembled … recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States … a neat edition of the Holy Scriptures for the use of schools.”

        – United States Congress 1782

        Congress passed this resolution:

        “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.”

        – United States Congress 1782

        By Law the United States Congress adds to US coinage:

        “In God We Trust”

        – United States Congress 1864

        John Adams -President of the United States of America, First Vice President, Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Signer of the Bill of Rights, and Signer of First Ammendment

        The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.

        – John Adams

        The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.

        – John Adams

        The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.

        – John Adams

        Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

        – John Adams

        I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world.

        – John Adams

        The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.

        – John Adams

        [The Fourth of July] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.

        – John Adams

        As the safety and prosperity of nations ultimately and essentially depend on the protection and the blessing of Almighty God, and the national acknowledgment of this truth is not only an indispensable duty which the people owe to Him.

        – John Adams

        We recognize no sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus.

        – John Adams and John Hancock (uncomfirmed quote)

        Abigail Adams – Wife of John Adams

        “The Scriptures tell us righteousness exalteth a Nation.”

        – Abigail Adams

        Patrick Henry – Early America Leader

        There is a book [the Bible] worth all the other books ever printed.

        – Patrick Henry

        It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

        – Patrick Henry (uncomfirmed quote)

        John Jay – First Chief-Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court

        Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty – as well as privilege and interest – of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.

        – John Jay

        The Bible is the best of all books, for it is the word of God and teaches us the way to be happy in this world and in the next. Continue therefore to read it and to regulate your life by its precepts.

        – John Jay

        John Hancock – Signer of the Declaration of Independence

        …that all may bow to the scepter of our Lord Jesus Christ and that the whole Earth may be filled with his glory.

        – John Hancock, as Governor of Massachusetts 1791

        We recognize no sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus.

        – John Adams and John Hancock (uncomformed quote)

        Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration of Independence

        “The only foundation for . . . a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.”

        – Benjamin Rush

        Let the children…be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education.

        – Benjamin Rush

        Christianity is the only true and perfect religion…

        – Benjamin Rush

        John Witherspoon – Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Continental Congress

        “He is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down on profanity and immorality of every kind. Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy to his country.”

        – John Witherspoon

        John Dickinson – Signer Constitution of the USA, Continental Congress

        “The rights essential to happiness. . . . We claim them from a higher source — from the King of kings and Lord of all the earth.”

        – John Dickinson

        Benjamin Franklin

        “Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.”

        – Benjamin Franklin

        Thomas Jefferson – President

        God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever.

        – Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Memorial

        The Christian religion is the best religion that has ever been given to man

        – Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Memorial

        Daniel Webster – Early American Politician

        Education is useless without the Bible.

        – Daniel Webster

        Noah Webster – “Schoolmaster of the Republic”

        Education is useless without the Bible. The Bible was America’s basic text book in all fields. God’s Word, contained in the Bible, has furnished all necessary rules to direct our conduct.

        – Noah Webster

        In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed … No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.

        – Noah Webster, Preface Noah Webster Dictionary, 1828

        Joseph Story – Supreme Court Justice

        “I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law … There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.”

        – Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, Harvard Speech, 1829

        United States of America National Anthem – Francis Scott Key

        “And this be our motto, ‘In God is our trust’”

        – USA National Anthem, Third Verse

        USA Constitution – First Ammendment

        “Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth…”

        – US Constitution, Before signature text declaring our Christian Nation

        Note: “Year of our Lord” means Jesus Christ is Lord of the USA. (Founding fathers didn’t use year of the Lord)

        “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion [Christian denomination], or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

        – US Constitution, First Ammendment (Christian religious freedom brackets added)

        Andrew Jackson – President of the United States of America

        “[The Bible] is the rock on which our Republic rests.”

        – Andrew Jackson

        Abraham Lincoln – President of the United States of America

        In regards to this great Book [the Bible], I have but to say it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Savior gave to the world was communicated through this Book. But for it we could not know right from wrong. All things most desirable for man’s welfare, here and hereafter, are found portrayed in it.

        – Abraham Lincoln

        I am busily engaged in study of the Bible.

        – Abraham Lincoln

        This nation under God

        – Abraham Lincoln, Gettysberg Address and inscribed on Lincoln Memorial

        And whereas it is the duty of nations as well as of men, to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God … and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord.

        – Abraham Lincoln

        Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh. (Matthew 18:7)

        – Abraham Lincoln, Lincoln Memorial

        We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.

        – Abraham Lincoln, Lincoln Memorial

        Whereas, the Senate of the United States, devoutly recognizing the Supreme Authority and just Government of Almighty God, in all the affairs of men and of nations, has, by a resolution, requested the President to designate and set apart a day for National prayer and humiliation…

        – Abraham Lincoln

        “Intelligence, patriotism, Christianity, and a firm reliance on Him who has never yet forsaken this favored land, are still competent to adjust in the best way all our present difficulties.”

        – Abraham Lincoln, President, March 4, 1861 inaugural address

        United States Supreme Court

        “This is a Christian nation”

        – United States Supreme Court Decision in Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 1892

        “Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian…This is a Christian nation”

        – United States Supreme Court Decision in Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 1892

        Washington Monument

        Holiness to the Lord (Exodus 28:26, 30:30, Isaiah 23:18, Zechariah 14:20)

        – Washington Monument

        Search the Scriptures (John 5:39)

        – Washington Monument

        The memory of the just is blessed (Proverbs 10:7)

        – Washington Monument

        May Heaven to this Union continue its beneficence

        – Washington Monument

        In God We Trust

        – Washington Monument

        “Praise be to God” (engraved on the monument’s capstone in Latin as “Laus Deo”)

        – Washington Monument

        James Madison – A Primary Author of the Constitution of the United States of America

        “We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments.”

        – James Madison

        “Religion [is] the basis and foundation of Government”

        – James Madison

        “Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ.”

        – James Madison

        Northwest Ordinance – July 13, 1787

        Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.

        – Northwest Ordinance, Article 3

        Original Harvard University Student Handbook 1636

        Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well: the main end of his life and studies is “to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life” (John 17.3), and therefore to lay Christ in the bottom, as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and learning. And seeing the Lord only giveth wisdom, let everyone seriously set himself by prayer in secret to seek it of Him (Prov. 2.3).

        – Original Harvard University Student Handbook

        William McGuffy – author of McGuffy Reader, which was used for over 100 years in American schools as the primary textbook

        The Christian religion is the religion of our country. From it are derived our nation, on the character of God, on the great moral Governor of the universe. On its doctrines are founded the peculiarities of our free Institutions. From no source has this author drawn more conspicuously than from the sacred Scriptures. From all these extracts from the Bible, I make no apology.

        – William McGuffy, author of McGuffy Reader

        Congress – First Prayer in Congress

        O LORD, OUR HEAVENLY FATHER, high and mighty King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, who dost from Thy throne behold all the dwellers on earth, and reignest with power supreme and uncontrolled over all the kingdoms, empires and governments; look down in mercy we beseech Thee, on these American States, who have fled to Thee from the rod of the oppressor, and thrown themselves on Thy gracious protection, desiring henceforth to be dependent only on Thee; to Thee they have appealed for the righteousness of their cause; to Thee do they now look up for that countenance and support which Thou alone canst give; take them, therefore, Heavenly Father, under Thy nurturing care; give them wisdom in council and valor in the field; defeat the malicious design of our cruel adversaries; convince them of the unrighteousness of their cause; and if they persist in their sanguinary purpose, O let the voice of Thy own unerring justice, sounding in their hearts, constrain them to drop the weapons of war from their unnerved hands in the day of battle! Be Thou present, O God of wisdom, and direct the counsels of this honorable assembly; enable them to settle things on the best and surest foundation, that the scene of blood may be speedily closed, that order, harmony and peace may be effectually restored, and truth and justice, religion and piety prevail and flourish among Thy people. Preserve the health of their bodies and vigor of their minds; shower down on them, and the millions they here represent, such temporal blessings as Thou seest expedient for them in this world, and crown them with everlasting glory in the world to come. All this we ask in the name and through the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son, Our Savior. Amen.

        – First Prayer in Congress September 7, 1774, Jacob Duche, Carpenters Hall, Philadelphia

        Calvin Coolidge- President of the United States of America

        “The foundations of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country.”

        – Calvin Coolidge

        Harry S. Truman – President of the United States of America

        “The fundamental basis of this Nation’s law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings which we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul.”

        – Harry S. Truman

        “This Nation was established by men who believed in God. … You will see the evidence of this deep religious faith on every hand.’

        – Harry S. Truman

        Dwight D. Eisenhower – President of the United States of America

        “Without God there could be no American form of government, nor an American way of life. Recognition of the Supreme Being is the first, the most basic, expression of Americanism. Thus, the founding fathers of America saw it, and thus with God’s help, it will continue to be.”

        – Dwight D. Eisenhower

        “I believe that the next half century will determine if we will advance the cause of Christian civilization or revert to the horrors of brutal paganism.”

        – Theodore Roosevelt, President

        “This is a Christian nation.”

        – Harry Truman, President

        “[The United States is] founded on the principles of Christianity”

        – Franklin D. Roosevelt, President

        Ronald Reagan – President of the United States of America

        Of the many influences that have shaped the United States into a distinctive nation and people, none may be said to be more fundamental and enduring than the Bible.

        – Ronald Reagan

        Deep religious beliefs stemming from the Old and New Testaments of the Bible inspired many of the early settlers of our country, providing them with the strength, character, convictions, and faith necessary to withstand great hardship and danger in this new and rugged land. These shared beliefs helped forge a sense of common purpose among the widely dispersed colonies — a sense of community which laid the foundation for the spirit of nationhood that was to develop in later decades.

        – Ronald Reagan

        The Bible and its teachings helped form the basis for the Founding Fathers’ abiding belief in the inalienable rights of the individual, rights which they found implicit in the Bible’s teachings of the inherent worth and dignity of each individual. This same sense of man patterned the convictions of those who framed the English system of law inherited by our own Nation, as well as the ideals set forth in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

        – Ronald Reagan

        For centuries the Bible’s emphasis on compassion and love for our neighbor has inspired institutional and governmental expressions of benevolent outreach such as private charity, the establishment of schools and hospitals, and the abolition of slavery.

        – Ronald Reagan

        “The Congress of the United States, in recognition of the unique contribution of the Bible in shaping the history and character of this Nation, and so many of its citizens, has by Senate Joint Resolution 165 authorized and requested the President to designate the year 1983 as the ‘Year of the Bible.’”‘

        – Ronald Reagan

        Inside the Bible’s pages lie the answers to all the problems that mankind has ever known. I hope Americans will read and study the Bible.

        – Ronald Reagan

  • Bolvon72

    Jesus c0cksuckin’ christ, if Alabamans weren’t such a pathetic bunch of miscreants, I’d be offended.

    • Daniel Allen

      Wow… you are really a class act !

      • Sandy Mallett Rekau

        No he has no class !!!

      • Bolvon72

        Thank you.

  • gods need not apply

    Any judge that points to scripture in his plea should be removed from the bench immediately. The bottom line is that once the government decided to have an interest in marriage religious interpretation of the word no longer applies. It is now a state matter. Period.

    • Sandy Mallett Rekau

      Total IDIOT !!!!!

      • gods need not apply

        This is a perfect example of ad hominem! Unless you were referring to the judge of course.
        And if you want to convince yourself that I am an idiot, you must think the founding fathers were as well, I was only upholding their intentions.
        Now, do you have a legitimate argument for why I am wrong, or will you continue to resort to attacking me instead of my statement?

        • The Last Trump

          Wonder why the founding fathers, whose intentions YOU uphold, supported traditional marriage ONLY. So strange….

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            Were the founding fathers questioned about any form of marriage other than “traditional marriage”?

          • gods need not apply

            I uphold their intentions that individuals not be ruled by others personal belief. I’m sure that most of the founding fathers would not have attended a same gender marriage, but I have faith that they were good enough statesman to see the ambiguity in allowing one group of people a right denied to others based solely on religious beliefs.

      • weasel1886

        High class Christian I see

        • gods need not apply

          Now that I see her other comment, this is even funnier!

  • UmustBKiddinMe

    ““Forgive us for allowing sexual perversions to be considered as normal,””

    What people view as “normal” and what they don’t, would be a matter of personal opinion. The pastor is suggesting that people not be allowed to have their own opinions. Quite the totalitarian view point.

    He obviously does not support our constitution and would prefer that our form of government were replaced with a Christian Theocracy that has the power to control people’s views.

    ” Gonnella said that he was referring to anything that God considers an abomination.”

    Then why didn’t he say that?

    “The people of Alabama voted that marriage should be between one man and one woman and that should be what is done,” Gonnella said.”

    So Gonnella does NOT support the right of citizens to challenge laws in court or the ability of the judiciary to rule on the constitutionality of laws. Further, he believes that whatever law is put into place by a majority of those who voted, should be allowed to stand without question. Therefore, he would prefer that the US were a pure democracy rather than a constitutional republic and would prefer a system where the majority were able to infringe upon the rights of the minority and rights of citizens were not protected against such action.

    Pretty un-American.

  • Erastus Okundi Oluoch

    Amen! God has his agents everywhere!

    • gods need not apply

      And we need to get them out of the government, if they can’t keep their religion out of our constitution. Most people that praise this type of unconstitutional behavior would not be so supportive if it were another religion infecting our judicial branch of government. I guess willful ignorance really is bliss…

  • LeftCoast

    Acknowledge God as the real and only answer to sin and immorality.

    • Paul Hiett

      Or what?

      • LeftCoast

        Free will dude. Do you and enjoy! When you want to face your sin and immorality, you need to acknowledge God.

        • Paul Hiett

          I see no need to acknowledge any deity at all. Your “sin” and “immorality” are only opinions that you have of a text written by men 2000+ years ago, and I’m sorry, but any “book” that claims that you can breed stripes in animals by having them mate in front of trees with stripes on them is not a book I am going ot lend much credence to.

          • LeftCoast

            Cool, do you!!!!

          • Paul Hiett

            Huh?

    • gods need not apply

      No.

  • jimmy padgett

    I Bentley shud leave office if professes to Christian an upholds the federal courts on marriage. If ur afraid gov. To do gods work then u need to step aside an let someone with back get in there an tell the feds. This gods law an Alabama’s constitution an already been voted on by the citizens of this state. We need another guy with the fire an guts gov. Wallace had during g the sixties. Enough said get bently let some else lead this state.

    • Paul Hiett


      In the
      name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw the
      line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I
      say segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.”

      Tell me more about Wallace…

      • Jean Adams

        The greatest people that have ever trod this earth? Surely you don’t mean the USA. You must be kidding.

        • Paul Hiett

          Pretty sure Wallace was referring to white Christians.

  • gods need not apply

    Where should I follow God?

    To hate my family? Luke 14:26

    To stone my children? Deuteronomy 21:18-21

    To rape? Numbers 31:7-18

    Or should I stop at nothing and go right ahead to genocide? Deuteronomy 13:15, Joshua 10:40, 1 Samuel 15:2-3…

    • Chris Taylor

      Don’t worry coz when you have got rid of Christianity and the God of the Bible you may be left with something a whole lot worse.

      • gods need not apply

        Actually I have gotten rid of them, and my life is so much better! I can enjoy my one chance at life without worrying about a deity peeking in my bedroom window. Life is so much better when you break free from outdated myth.

        • Brad Will

          You’re still heading for the Judgement of God. You cannot physically weasle your way out of that. How shall you break those shackles? Eternal torment awaits fools, which you are proud of being.

          • gods need not apply

            What makes me a fool more than you? You are an atheist towards all the other mythical deities that have been believed in throughout the history of the world. I am only an atheist one more time than you. What makes your myth any more valid than the thousands of others that make just as little sense?

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            What makes you think that God is a myth? Awe the evidence. You make the claim, but you won’t provide the evidence. We are not atheists. Specifically stated you include the God that we know and love with the gods that are mythical. Not really a good comparison. We believe that God is the truth, the way, and the life. What do you believe? Bringing up the myth argument is heard so many times it gets old, can you think up something new for us?

          • gods need not apply

            Kind of telling that I post a reply with evidence and it is not allowed. That’s OK because I saved it. I know what I said, and Christian News knows what I said, but only Christian News knows why it is scared to allow the post.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Well, ya can’t blame me for that one lol.

          • gods need not apply

            Touche! 🙂

          • Josey

            doubt they are scared at your lack of understanding of God and His words, just understanding you are ignorant because you do not have the Spirit of God to give you understanding so you go on and on with misconceptions thinking you are so wise in yourself but you are a fool instead and it shows in your comments. And you do not realize you are a fool, I don’t mean it as an offence against you just as a fact. A fool denies God’s existence and denies Him as our Creator, we were all fools at one time before coming to Christ and receiving of His Spirit. Paul, Christ’s apostle who was inspired to write most of the New Testament was more educated than most and he thought pretty highly of himself until his meeting with Christ on the Damascus road, then he knew himself to have been a fool even with all his education.

          • gods need not apply

            Well when I try to post pertinent and poignant points, but they are not allowed to show, it only appears that open and honest debate is not encouraged here. And the only reason to fear open and honest debate is the fear of being defeated in such. There is a reason that lack of education correlates with religiosity, and that is the reason most religions discourage getting your information from anything but its holy book.

            The real definition of a fool is someone “who acts unwisely or imprudently; a silly person.” To me this would be a perfect description of someone that is so out of touch with this reality as one must be to fully follow and believe the bible.

            And you make assumptions of me. I do not think I am wise. I am constantly asking for clarification because I do not know everything. Learning is very important. Learning the truth of the world around you is very important. I do not have a “higher” education, just a high school graduate, but I can still separate myth from reality. And I take every opportunity possible to learn all I can about our marvelous reality.

            Please tell me what do you have (other than your faith which is yours and will not work for me) as an indication that the myth of the bible is any more real than that of Zeus, Thor, Horus, or any of the thousands of other deities worshiped over the span of human history?

        • roald

          Quetzalcoat is going to be pretty p**sed at you.

          Alternatively, watch your socks, the Invisible Pink Unicorn is mad at you.

        • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

          It works until time of death when you face the one you dent and Reject and find out you were wrong.

          • gods need not apply

            Whom have I dented? What does that even mean? Is god a metal robot?

            You will find out you were wrong when you face Hades/Hel/Yama/all 42 of the Egyptian divine tribunal. You’ve got a lot of gods you’ve rejected.

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            I type very bad.

          • gods need not apply

            My apologies 🙂

          • Josey

            she said denied not dented

          • gods need not apply

            Yes, we are way past that 🙂

    • jjhot254 .

      don’t list verses without knowing its context, you look dumb

      • gods need not apply

        i know the context. Can you please tell me a context where rape, slavery, or infanticide is OK? What about genocide? Hitler was only following god’s example. I would rather be dumb than condone child killing.

        • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

          You do not know the context, and clearly you don’t.

          • gods need not apply

            Again I ask, please explain the context to me. In what context do you find it acceptable to commit the grievous acts against others that god commands of his followers?

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            We have already discussed that. Lets move on

          • gods need not apply

            I apologize; I can’t find where we discussed it.

          • Angel Triumphant

            A question to you…
            what do you know about, and how do you understand Genesis 6…?

        • roald

          You do not know the context. If you did you would understand that it is OK to commit atrocities against others.

        • jjhot254 .

          who said those things were okay?? those people committing those atrocities were going against the word of God, Chrisitans were and are at the forefront combating those atrocities, ever heard of Wilberforce? anti-slavery emancipator? a Christian, Bonhoeffer?
          Who condones child killing?? think before you speak?

          • gods need not apply

            “Who condones child killing??”

            God does.
            God kills children himself.
            Genesis 6:7 & 7:4, 11-12

            And please explain to me how the peoples in
            Deuteronomy 20:13-15 (in my original comment) were as you said “those people committing those atrocities were going against the word of God”. The words of Deuteronomy were straight from Moses. Moses supposedly got the info directly from God.

            How do you defend “Chrisitans [Christians] were and are at the forefront combating those atrocities” when the atrocities I was referring to happened before Christ?

            I am glad to hear there are Christians in the world now that devote their lives to helping others. I’m just trying to point out that people shouldn’t take their bearings from a moral compass so broken as the god in the bible.

            People should be good and help others without the threat of hell from an immoral god. And if it takes the threat of hell to make you behave as a good person, does that really make you a good person?

          • jjhot254 .

            God does not condone killing of innocents. He cannot abide by sin. God is the ultimate authority, He is the giver and taker of life, Word of God has to be put in context as to type of writing it is and its historical background.
            How do you know that those who were killed were innocent? You are assuming, it is safe to say that those were sinful, unrighteousness people, if they were people at that, It also says that God waited 400 years for the Amorites sin to be full before exacting punishment.
            God was the sole authority during those times, God has given some of that authority to civil governments, what do you think of our government condoning innocent babies to murder through abortion? 50 million INNOCENT babies are murdered!!
            Tsarnaev was just condemn to die, is this atrocious in your view as well?
            If you don’t believe in God, where does your moral come from?

          • gods need not apply

            Are you telling me that every single little child in Sodom and Gamorrah were evil and deserving of death? Every single child killed in the flood? Every child of the peoples that occupied (how dare them) the promised land You can say that with absolute certainty? What about the first born of Egypt? God knew what would be the outcome and he intentionally hardened pharaoh’s heart and as a result many children died. Not pharaoh died, many children died! For someone that doesn’t agree with abortion you are ignoring the many babies that god has murdered in the bible. If it were true, that is. the bottom line to all this is that I don’t really believe that god killed all those people. I’m just trying to get people that use the bible for a moral basis to understand the lack of morality in doing so. Too many churches focus on just the good of the bible and ignore the parts they don’t want to face.

            My morals:
            My morals certainly do not come from a book written by an isolated early civilization that believed in a geocentric universe.

            My morals certainly do not come from a book that spells out the condoned way to beat a slave or how many more days I’m unclean after having a girl than a boy child.

            My morals come from the advancement of civilization and the interaction of different human factions. The belief that every person has a right to their own life, and that life does not have those rights until it can support itself. That no child should be indoctrinated with the idea that they are an imperfect creation of a (supposedly) perfect deity. That you should be allowed to do what you wish as long as you bring no harm to others’ lives.

          • jjhot254 .

            Have you ever read the bible in entirety? Really sat down to read from Genesis to Revelation? I cannot and am not able to judge God, who is the giver of life and the absolute moral authority, and He is good the epitome of goodness, it is from Him we get our morals of right and wrong, apart from God we would have no idea what right is from wrong,it is from God we get our sense of justice, we are outrage when injustice is done, God in his nature is good so He cannot do anything that is contrary to his nature

          • gods need not apply

            Yes, I have read the bible entirely, and you are using circular arguments. “God is good because God is good” is not a rational argument. Show me how god is so supposedly good. And I will point to the atrocities he is directly responsible for according to “his word”.

            And if god is where we get our morals then how did civilizations that had no knowledge of the judaeo-christian god manage to have morals? Morals themselves are subjective and fluid. Morally acceptable behavior of biblical times and teaching included the correct way to beat your slave, marrying (and having sexual relations with) very young (we would call them children now) girls, and stoning your daughter if she is not a virgin on her wedding day. Thankfully I live in a nation where I can stand up and say that the “morals” based in the bible are now morally reprehensible.

          • jjhot254 .

            No
            You have to go back to how do we know what is good or moral? Where does it come from ? If it’s subjective then there is no ultimate morality, but we know abusing children is morally wrong, how do we know that?
            I’m going away so will try to get back later

          • gods need not apply

            We know it’s morally wrong because it is inflicting harm on another self supporting human life. More accurately and depressingly we know it is wrong because of repetition and observation. As a species we have seen the damage it does to abuse children, and have cognitively come to the conclusion that it is bad. If we needed god to tell us that there wouldn’t be so many priests that molest little boys. And there wouldn’t be a bible passage commanding the stoning your unruly children (Deuteronomy 21:18-21).

          • jjhot254 .

            You should also research the bible, it is a historical document with the most evidence, according to NT scholars many of whom are atheists
            Sent from my iPhone

          • gods need not apply

            I have researched the bible. That is why I can definitively say that some of its claims are pure nonsense. Such as talking snakes.

            Can you please reference some of these credentialed NT atheist scholars?

          • jjhot254 .

            Bart Ehrman, does not deny Jesus,

          • gods need not apply

            Here is a reference for you http :// www . answering-christianity . com abdullah_smith/historical_errors_in_the_gospels-3
            . htm (without the spaces of course 🙂 ). The bible is not an historical document. There are no contemporary
            accounts of some of the more outrageous claims. Namely: Herod’s slaughter of
            the innocents after Jesus’s birth. No other historical account remotely alludes
            to it. Also the Roman records of Pilate do not mention any Jesus being crucified.
            They have records of many criminals but none were named Jesus.

            The most telling clue that the bible is false is the
            invalidity of its own claims. Read Mark 13 very carefully then read Mark 13:30
            again. The second coming as stated in the bible was supposed to happen before
            the people listening to those words of Jesus that day had passed away.

    • Josey

      In Luke Jesus is referencing that God must come first, he doesn’t say to stone anyone. I love my family and pray for them and always will but if it comes to having them as family members and renouncing Christ I will choose Christ over them, that is the love Jesus is referring to here. Seems you have misunderstood quite a bit of the Bible and you sound like Obama in misquoting scriptures and taking them out of context just like he did on many occasions. I don’t hold it against you, you are not born again and don’t have the Spirit of God so you rail against that which you don’t understand just as those in whom when Jesus hung on the cross asked God to forgive them for they know not what they do. I once was like you and railed against God before God saved me and gave me His Spirit to understand. I pray He will have mercy on you and give you the same grace so that instead of railing against Him you will understand the scriptures in context and not be found lost for eternity.

      • gods need not apply

        See you are wrong. I was brought up in the church. I understand the scriptures. I felt the “touch of god” (which by the way has been medically proven to be repeatable using meditation or medication, basically god is a placebo effect…It works because you think it will). I was a good little (indoctrinated) christian, and then I saw how truly foolish I was. I saw the inconsistencies and inaccuracies of the bible. I saw that the observable universe does not match the things I had been told as a child, and so I grew up. For the sake of humanity, I hope you can too.

  • Rod W

    After 40 years of being a Christian, I was put to the challenge to prove Jesus existed in real human history.

    Believing that to be an easy task, I set off to prove Jesus was a real human in real human history (outside of the Bible). All my research only compelled me to reject the Bible and all religious dogma as myth and fable. Moses, Jesus and Allah are but man made that morphed from antiquity into today’s religions. It’s all B.S.!

    • akosipatriot

      Almost all historians agreed on the historical existence of Jesus. Your heart readily accept the false teachings of some rouge historians.

      • gods need not apply

        Please site references.

    • Brad Will

      Off you go Rod, burn in Hell. It’s your choice to reject God’s hand of mercy. Burn in Hell forever, choose this instead of God. Do it! See how well this works for you! Cast off those shackles sinner!! And go forth!! Burn! Burn and burn in Hell. A man reaps what he sows, and your sin will find you out sinner.

  • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

    In this particular situation it is clear, that the Alabama Senate feels that marriage is between a man and a woman, that marriage in a same gender relationship is sinful, and the government themselves, the judges and officials of the senate are following the wishes of the majority of the people. Many people have argued the point that religion is not a part of government, but this reminds us that religion,, expressly Christian, has always existed within government both federally and at the state level. An atheist is going to do their best to deny this fact, but this is yet another example of our roots as a nation. Now before I get attacked by the atheist community, let me remind you there is nothing in these decisions that has taken away one civil right of yours. In fact Madison Wisconsin just passed some legislation to protect an atheist from harm because they are atheists. So I’m asking the atheist if you respond to this, keep it to the issues and not one’s person. That clearly is a logical fallacy in a discussion. I’ll make myself clear. I follow Christ. I will not change my stance or acceptance of Christ in my life. If the government is following the message of Christ, I will support that government entity. In this case, the government has set out the rules, the law, and it favors the marriage of a man and a woman. Not a same gender marriage.

    • Paul Hiett

      So a law that gives a non-Christian the same rights and protections you enjoy is not a law you will accept.

      Why do you think you can pick and choose which laws to follow?

      • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

        It isn’t so much about picking laws as much as I’m expressing the reality of the situation. I basically said that atheists have the same protections that other citizens do. In fact in Madison they have special laws on the books now for atheists. I can pick and choose based on the laws for a particular state, if I so desire to live in that state. But that is beside the point. The real point is I support the laws of Christ. If the government does also, that is a plus.

        • uzza

          What do you do if the government’s laws do not support the laws of Christ? Would you move to another country? Can you claim a right to citizenship in a country when you refuse to obey the country’s laws?

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            You’ve stated you don’t care about what the Bible says. So why are you asking me something you don’t care about? However I’ll answer your question this way. What happened to Martin Luther King, Nelson Mendela, Ghandi? I would stand up for the principles I’ve constantly laid out. Christ’s laws are above the laws of the land, but like Christ said, give unto Caesar what is Caesars and give unto God what is Gods. Does that make sense to an atheist?

        • UmustBKiddinMe

          Which “law of Christ” states that two people of the same gender should not be allowed to enter into civil marriage?

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Paul was actually the one that took issue with same gender immorality. Right after that however, he explained to the Roman church that we are not to judge lest we be judged by the same judgement we apply to others. So in that context when he said God gave them up to their own desires, that means God allowed them to continue the practice of choice. According to Paul’s statement that isn’t a good thing.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            So, no “law of Christ” that says two citizens of the same gender should not be allowed to enter into civil marriage. Got it. Thanks.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Just remember there is a commandment by Jesus to believe in him. He is the way the truth and the life.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            I respect that is what you have chosen to believe.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            That is an interesting comment. So you believe one part but not the other, is that what you’re suggesting?

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            No, that is not what I’m suggesting. My statement was clear.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            You stated “no “law of Christ” that says two citizens of the same gender should not be allowed to enter into civil marriage. Got it. Thanks.” You inferred something I didn’t say, and then you said “I respect that is what you have chosen to believe.” So by inference you suggested there is no law of Christ, which I did now say, you ignored what Paul said, and then you stated that you respect what I have chosen to believe. I don’t think you respected my beliefs at all. I think you are being passive aggressive. It appears that you’re not willing to have the same logic applied to you that you have attempted with me. I therefore must disagree, your statement was not clear at all.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            I asked you what law of Christ says that two citizens of the same gender are not allowed to enter into civil marriage. You provided me with none.

            My reply: “I respect that is what you have chosen to believe” was in response to your post: “Just remember there is a commandment by Jesus to believe in him. He is the way the truth and the life.”

            So, no, there was no inference that there is no law of Christ. It is clear that, for Christians, there are laws of Christ. Would Jesus agree with all the “laws” that Christians have created out of the Bible? I don’t know….but I doubt it.

            “you ignored what Paul said”

            I didn’t ignore it. It wasn’t an answer to the question. Paul also said that women should be silent in church, that women should obey their husbands in all things, that men shouldn’t have long hair, that women shouldn’t have short hair, that women should dress modestly and eschew jewelry. Obviously some Christians are selective when applying Paul’s words to their lives.

            “I don’t think you respected my beliefs at all. I think you are being passive aggressive.”

            You are free to think whatever you care to. What you think about what I said, however, does not change the clarity of what I said. I do, indeed and despite what you think, respect that you hold to certain religious beliefs. You are entitled to believe as you like and I respect your right to do so.

            In what way do you believe I am being “passive/aggressive”?

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            You really have to ask that question? No you don’t because you are smart enough to know what passive aggressive is. You are correct in that I am free not only to think, but to share. In terms of clarity I would have to disagree. Pauls answer was representative of Jesus, since Jesus called him directly to be an apostle, something you don’t believe in, therefore cannot understand. You also realize that Paul was instructing the churches that had formed in Rome, Corinth, etc. Being selective isn’t the objective. The objective is to understand who Paul is referring to, what he has to say to the churches, and how that relates to the Christian. And I’ll ask you the same question I asked another. Since you do not believe that Christ is the Truth, the light, and the way, and you don’t believe in what Paul has to say, how can you use either to make a point? If your going to make a point make it from the perspective of what you believe in, otherwise it could be perceived as a logical fallacy. I know I know I’m waiting for the question.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            “No you don’t because you are smart enough to know what passive aggressive is.”

            I am well aware of the definition of passive/aggressive behavior. My being aware of it, however, does not allow me to understand why you believe I was exhibiting passive/aggressive behavior. I see nothing in my response that would be considered passive/aggressive. Thus, my question to you.

            “The objective is to understand who Paul is referring to, what he has to say to the churches, and how that relates to the Christian.”

            So, interpreting. Got it.

            “Since you do not believe that Christ is the Truth, the light, and the way, and you don’t believe in what Paul has to say, how can you use either to make a point?”

            Because you say you believe it. If you are going to use scripture to make your point, and suggest that Paul’s words are tantamount to the words of Jesus, then it should apply to all of Paul’s words. Therefore, it is reasonable to bring up other words of Paul regarding other activities of Christians.

            I don’t believe in the Muslim faith, but that would not mean that I could not question a Muslim regarding an argument based upon the Koran. To suggest otherwise is without merit.

            I’ll ask again: In what way do you believe I am being “passive/aggressive”?

    • uzza

      The problem is, what is the message of Christ? A good portion of Christians believe that SSM is acceptable, other Christians claim it is not. Who decides?

      • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

        Read the four gospels. That will provide you the answer to that question if you so desire to really know what the message of Christ is.

        • gods need not apply

          “If any man come to Me and hate not his father and
          mother, and wife and children, and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life
          also, he cannot be My disciple.”Luke 14:26 (KJ21)

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            In proper context, Jesus is making a comparison between the love that they have for their families, and the love and sacrifice they must have to be a disciple of Christ. It’s the deep divide and sacrifice that people must make to be a follower of Christ. In other vers. he states that

            The Cost of Being a Disciple

            25A large crowd was following Jesus. He turned around and said to them, 26“If you want to be my disciple, you must hate everyone else by comparison—your father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple. 27And if you do not carry your own cross and follow me, you cannot be my disciple.

            28“But don’t begin until you count the cost. For who would begin construction of a building without first calculating the cost to see if there is enough money to finish it? 29Otherwise, you might complete only the foundation before running out of money, and then everyone would laugh at you. 30They would say, ‘There’s the person who started that building and couldn’t afford to finish it!’

            31“Or what king would go to war against another king without first sitting down with his counselors to discuss whether his army of 10,000 could defeat the 20,000 soldiers marching against him? 32And if he can’t, he will send a delegation to discuss terms of peace while the enemy is still far away. 33So you cannot become my disciple without giving up everything you own.

            34“Salt is good for seasoning. But if it loses its flavor, how do you make it salty again? 35Flavorless salt is good neither for the soil nor for the manure pile. It is thrown away. Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand!”

          • gods need not apply

            Yet he used the word hate, or rather the framers and translators did. The same concept can be worded differently. Very telling that they still chose to use the word “hate”.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Answer:First, we must take this verse in the context of the chapter. Jesus is teaching His disciples, and like any good teacher, He begins with a truth statement that is hard to understand in order to get His students thinking. Then, He clarifies the difficult truth statement with a metaphor. The truth statement is the confusing verse 26, “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.” So, if we don’t hate our family and our own lives, we can’t be His disciple. But does He mean we are to have real hatred for our parents?

            Next, Jesus relates a metaphor about a man who builds a house without counting the cost and finds that he cannot follow through with what he set out to do. He leaves the house unfinished because he cannot pay what is required. Jesus is showing us the explanation to His difficult statement—that we must count the cost of discipleship. This is the point of the passage. In order to be a disciple, we must be willing to give up everything for Jesus. Therefore, if our parents will not follow Jesus, or even if they disown us for being Christians, we must still choose Him over them. It is in this sense that we are “hating” our family members who reject the Lord or reject us because of the Lord. This is not easy, and of course it is right that we should love our family members and want our family members to love and follow God. After all,1 John 4:7-8says “Beloved, let us love one another for love is from God and everyone that loves is born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God for God is love.” And that is only one of many passages commanding us to love others. But despite our love for the people we know, here is the key: if they don’t love Jesus, He must still be our first priority. We must esteem Him more highly than the people we love here on earth and we must love Him more than our own lives. In fact, we must love Him so much that our earthly loves pale in comparison, even to the point of seeming like hate.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Really this is easy stuff, if you know the Bible. To try to understand the Bible, it would be well if you studied it before making claims which you don’t understand, (or care about)

          • gods need not apply

            I do know the bible. I understand that it is a book best left in the fiction section.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Your comment contradicts itself.

          • gods need not apply

            How?

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Jesus explains his love to all mankind.

            9“I have loved you even as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. 10When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father’s commandments and remain in his love. 11I have told you these things so that you will be filled with my joy. Yes, your joy will overflow! 12This is my commandment: Love each other in the same way I have loved you. 13There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you slaves, because a master doesn’t confide in his slaves. Now you are my friends, since I have told you everything the Father told me. 16You didn’t choose me. I chose you. I appointed you to go and produce lasting fruit, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask for, using my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.

          • gods need not apply

            Jesus was a complete supporter of all the Old Testament laws, which means he approved of all the atrocities in the Old Testament. There are too many verses to quote. Remember that God and Jesus are supposed to be the same entity, so anything the God of the Old Testament did, Jesus approved of (like rape, genocide, infanticide, slavery, etc.).

          • Paul Hiett

            You will now be told that Jesus came to fulfill the law, and that therefore some of the OT laws are not valid. They have a hard time picking and choosing which of the laws were fulfilled and which of the laws are no longer valid and which are…mainly it comes down to which laws they don’t like anymore, such as regarding divorce, working on the sabbath, eating shrimp, wearing certain fabrics, etc.

            But rest assured, the part of Leviticus that demands death for homosexuals is alive and well!

          • gods need not apply

            Or maybe these bible readers actually remember Luke 16:17.

            I saw a meme once that said “if you’re gonna follow the bible, you’re gonna go to jail.” Sums it up nicely. LOL

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            That is false and completely unfounded. If you want to address certain issues one at a time, that is fine. If not, represent the Bible in the manner in which it was designed and understand the history of that time, and how it would apply to people’s lives today. You’re trying to paint a picture, but the picture is so abstract that the meaning of the picture could mean anything you want it to mean, while not focusing on the context in which the scripture holds its meaning. To say that the Bible endorses those things mentioned is like you saying that because your atheist you endorse Hitler because he was a good guy.

          • gods need not apply

            Why would being an atheist have anything to do with Hitler? Hitler was very much a Christian. Maybe not the kind you would like to picture yourself, but every deeply religious person thinks they are right. Fact is not all of them can be.

            “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

            This includes the laws of forcing a victim to marry her rapist, stoning your unruly children, not wearing a garment made from two different materials, and killing even your family if they try to convince you to worship a different god.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Hitler was a neo-darwinist. He wanted to kill the Christian orthodox priests but it was recommended not to because of political fallout. I’m supposing that with every statement you post out of context in the Bible, without you believing in the Bible to start with is just another atheist tactic. When you state these things you don’t understand them. Matthew 5:17 clearly states he is the new covenant, and he is the ultimate authority, since he fulfilled the law. He IS the law do you not understand that. He isn’t talking about the law of the land, he is talking about the law of the prophet Isaiah who prophesied that Jesus would come to fulfill the law. You get that right?

          • gods need not apply

            Hitler was raised Catholic. He very much believed in the same god that Christians do. His statement “Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” is all too telling. Nazis in America very much believe in the Christian god, and they find biblical support for their bigotry.

            “he is the ultimate authority…” So then are you saying that the old testament laws no longer apply?

          • gods need not apply

            Yet he specifically calls you to hate your fellow man and supports all the atrocities committed by his father (or himself actually) in the OT. Jesus still wants you to stone unruly children and apostates. He agrees with the rape and genocide commanded by god (himself). So explain to me again about his so called “love”.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Job is tested. You are being tested as am I. What you have said is false, but a mere man like Job knew God. This is what he has to say in the midst of torture by Satan.

            1Then Job spoke again:
            2“Yes, I know all this is true in principle.
            But how can a person be declared innocent in God’s sight?

            3If someone wanted to take God to court,
            would it be possible to answer him even once in a thousand times?

            4For God is so wise and so mighty.
            Who has ever challenged him successfully?

            5“Without warning, he moves the mountains,
            overturning them in his anger.

            6He shakes the earth from its place,
            and its foundations tremble.

            7If he commands it, the sun won’t rise
            and the stars won’t shine.

            8He alone has spread out the heavens
            and marches on the waves of the sea.

            9He made all the stars—the Bear and Orion,
            the Pleiades and the constellations of the southern sky.

            10He does great things too marvelous to understand. He performs countless miracles.

            11“Yet when he comes near, I cannot see him.
            When he moves by, I do not see him go.

            12If he snatches someone in death, who can stop him? Who dares to ask, ‘What are you doing?’

            13And God does not restrain his anger.
            Even the monsters of the sea are crushed beneath his feet.
            14“So who am I, that I should try to answer God
            or even reason with him?

            15Even if I were right, I would have no defense.
            I could only plead for mercy.

            16And even if I summoned him and he responded,
            I’m not sure he would listen to me.

            17For he attacks me with a storm
            and repeatedly wounds me without cause.

            18He will not let me catch my breath,
            but fills me instead with bitter sorrows.

            19If it’s a question of strength, he’s the strong one.
            If it’s a matter of justice, who dares to summon him to court?

            20Though I am innocent, my own mouth would pronounce me guilty.
            Though I am blameless, itc would prove me wicked.

            21“I am innocent,
            but it makes no difference to me—
            I despise my life.

            22Innocent or wicked, it is all the same to God.
            That’s why I say, ‘He destroys both the blameless and the wicked.’

            23When a plagued sweeps through,
            he laughs at the death of the innocent.

            24The whole earth is in the hands of the wicked,
            and God blinds the eyes of the judges.
            If he’s not the one who does it, who is?

            25“My life passes more swiftly than a runner.
            It flees away without a glimpse of happiness.

            26It disappears like a swift papyrus boat,
            like an eagle swooping down on its prey.

            27If I decided to forget my complaints,
            to put away my sad face and be cheerful,

            28I would still dread all the pain,
            for I know you will not find me innocent, O God.

            29Whatever happens, I will be found guilty.
            So what’s the use of trying?

            30Even if I were to wash myself with soap
            and clean my hands with lye,

            31you would plunge me into a muddy ditch,
            and my own filthy clothing would hate me.

            32“God is not a mortal like me,
            so I cannot argue with him or take him to trial.

            33If only there were a mediator between us,
            someone who could bring us together.

            34The mediator could make God stop beating me,
            and I would no longer live in terror of his punishment.

            35Then I could speak to him without fear,
            but I cannot do that in my own strength.

            The end result, not only did God give Job what he had, but 10 times that amount. Can you realize now that believing in God and Christ is against Satan and evil. Yet, being tested as a Christian is one of the keys to our salvation. To attempt to compare yourself to God is a futile attempt as you can see from Job’s comments, yet Job stayed faithful no matter what was to happen to him

          • Paul Hiett

            Who condoned the torture?

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            A better question is who wanted to Torture. God allowed it, but Satan wanted it, to prove that man would deny God if Satan took away all his fancy stuff. Well it didn’t work out so well for Satan. It did work out well for God, and Job in the end. That battle continues today, and its up to us to consider what side we want to be on.

          • Paul Hiett

            No, the better question is, who condoned the torture of an innocent man, and who condoned the murder of his family?

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Satan did, he asked to do it. God allowed it to prove Satan wrong. Any Christian will tell you that we are tested to be found worthy or not to follow Christ. Satan will always be around tempting and destroying people’s lives since its clear that he hates God’s creation. Don’t be fooled into thinking that condoning something, and having the ability to allow it, is the same thing. Christ doesn’t condone sin, but he allowed it. God didn’t condone the acts in Sodom and Gommorah, but told Lot, if he found one good person, he would spare the cities. Lot couldn’t find one person, and God was tired of seeing these cities doing attrocious acts of violence, (I would mention more but they would not allow posting). By the people’s own deeds God had, had enough. Now since you don’t believe in God, these things won’t make much sense to you. I understand that. However if you did have the opportunity to study through the entire concept of the Bible, your perspective changes, it has to. The new covenant that Christ brought was a rebellion against established laws that supposed men of God used for power. Jesus would have nothing to do with that, and set out to change the world. That is why Christians have believed in Christ and God for some 2000 or more years. If (I use that term loosely since I know God exists) God is God, don’t you think at face value that he can do what he wishes to do anytime he wants to do it? That was what the issue was with Job. When everything, even his friends were against him he did not curse God. Satan thought the man would, but he didn’t. Satan does everything he can to destroy people’s lives. That doesn’t mean God condones it. If God didn’t give us freedom of choice, what good would believing in God do. That’s the whole point.

        • uzza

          I don’t care about Christ’s message. The question is still who decides which group of Christians will be allowed to enforce their interpretation of that message by making laws.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            If you don’t care about Christ’s message, your question is irrelevant. No offense intended

          • The Last Trump

            There is only one body of Christians. Those who remain faithful to the Word of God and the example of Christ, no matter their denomination.
            Those who twist and “interpret” the scriptures to “say” what it very clearly does not say are not Christians. They are no more “Christian” than a person born as a man is today considered a “woman” merely by believing he is. Ridiculous rubbish.
            And God will decide, based on the faithfulness of His followers to His Word. Pretty simple stuff, really. Unless you’re a leftist, liberal given to hedonism and debauchery.

          • uzza

            There are Christians who believe they are following the Word of God by accepting transsexuals and there are Christains who believe they are following the Word of God by condemning them. Who decides which group of Christians is right when it comes to making laws as these senators are supposed to be doing?

          • The Last Trump

            Asked and answered.
            The Bible is clear. Which is why SSM has never been an issue until now.
            People who reject the Bible as the Word of God and believe that they have descended from monkeys will “interpret” what they like. And some may even call themselves Christians cause it makes them “feel” all warm and fuzzy inside and they like the idea of heaven.
            God will decide. You believe what you like. I’ll stay true to the infallible Word of God that is absolutely crystal clear on this topic and we will see where that gets us.

          • Paul Hiett

            And they will say the exact same thing you are saying.

          • Nhdriver

            He is too worried that someone he considers inferior is being treated as an equal. On anything being at all clear in the bible according to Trumpy, I will point out that a group of allegorical stories written by sheep herders and fluffed up and edited by an Englishman in 1604 to entertain a king is not at all the definition of ‘clear’ in any way shape or form.

            Keep up the good work Paul !

            NHD

          • MisterPine

            “what it very clearly does not say”

            And you know that how?

          • The Last Trump

            Through a highly complicated and advanced mechanical process.
            I read it. Duh!?

          • MisterPine

            Well that’s just AMAZING, Rumpy, Christians and non-Christians alike have been arguing over the meanings of the words of the Bible since time immemorial, and you magically know how to interpret everything as though God whispered it directly into your ear. Aren’t you special!

          • The Last Trump

            We’ve been arguing over the definition of marriage for time immemorial, have we?!
            Not on this planet pal.
            Where YOU from? FSTDT dot com?
            Oh, that explains it.
            Maybe you hadn’t noticed all the RECENT court battles raging across the country to nail down the NEW definition of marriage!
            Time immemorial! What a joke. Nice try, hater.

          • MisterPine

            “We’ve been arguing over the definition of marriage for time immemorial, have we?!”

            Didn’t say that, Rumpy. Try to focus. Above, you said, “Those who twist and “interpret” the scriptures to “say” what it very clearly does not say are not Christians.” You know what rational people call that sentence? The No True Scotsman Fallacy. That’s when you take it upon yourself to decide who is and isn’t Christian based on things you don’t agree with which they might happen to do.

            SUCH AS – have one “interpretation” of something in the Bible that doesn’t match yours! Why do you think there are so many Christian denominations Rumpy? Like, over 40,000 of them? BECAUSE NO ONE CAN AGREE on what your Bible says!

          • The Last Trump

            Yes, it’s so very hard to comprehend. !

            “You shall not lie with a man as you would with a woman. That is detestable.”

            Oh the agony of it all! If only I could understand the “hidden” meaning in this cryptic enigma of a mystery!

            Hee, hee! What a bunch of immoral m0rons. What are you, four? Only a complete idIot or a conniving and dishonest charlatan would see the need for “interpretation” in a statement of such profound clarity.

            So which describes YOU?

          • MisterPine

            You haven’t presented me with any dilemmas, Rumpster. Don’t cherry pick the quotes that you and your fellow bigots use to beat up on homosexuals with. That’s too easy.

            Try starting here, you sanctimonious, self-righteous hypocrite, you:

            infidels dot org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

            Hee, hee! What a blowhard you are!

          • The Last Trump

            Aww, don’t get mad because the Bible cuts through all your bullsh!tt like a hot knife through butter. Spin your yarns and peddle your immoral nonsense all you like. Your depravity will NEVER be considered normal and accepted by all. As evidenced here by the good people of Alabama who outright reject your sick perversion. How it must suck to be you, desperately monitoring the Christian websites, pissing your pants with fear and absolutely scared to death that the nasty Christians will return the definition of marriage to its former glory once everybody gets a good look at just how ugly and hateful you and yours are. And rightly so! Case in point.
            Sleep tight, sicko! Tick tock…. 😉

          • MisterPine

            No fear, Rumpy, I don’t lose sleep over a book that claims bats are birds, there were talking snakes and there was a worldwide flood that no archaeologist can show any record of. What does it say about you that you are even annoying CHRISTIANS with your psychotic drivel on fstdt dot com? (Check it out, folks! Our Rumpy is an anti-hero for some of his lunatic beliefs! Just go to “search” and under “fundie” enter LAST TRUMP and watch the hilarity!)

          • MisterPine

            Only one response which your fan page brought in summarizes the situation perfectly, and here it is, Rumpy. People know EXACTLY what you’re all about.

            Doubting Thomas said:

            “Your depravity will NEVER be considered normal and accepted by all. ”

            No, there will always be a small faction of extreme fundie Christians who think that anything they don’t like is “depravity.”

            “How it must suck to be you, desperately monitoring the Christian websites ”

            I haven’t been on a Christian website in years. And then it was only to laugh at the insanity.

            “pissing your pants with fear and absolutely scared to death that the nasty Christians will return the definition of marriage to its former glory once everybody gets a good look at just how ugly and hateful you and yours are.”

            You really believe that the vast majority of people agree with you, don’t you?

            I really hope the Supreme Court rules in favor of same sex marriage and wipes the smugness off this idiot’s face, if even just temporarily.

        • SpeakTruth

          Other Christians and non-theists as well, have read the four gospels (the entire bible, actually). Many have read it in its original language and have studied the common usage of words at the time it was written. They have studied the translations as well. If it was so incredibly clear there wouldn’t be thousands of different denominations of Christianity, nor would there still be debates on this or many other issues. Religious scholars who have read, researched, and studied the bible for years cannot agree. Clergy who have spent their lives studying and praying cannot agree. So, no, reading the four gospels will not provide a definitive answer about what the god of the bible thinks about SSM, nor what the god of the bible wants christians to do about SSM, nor what the god of the bible wants the government to do about SSM. This is one of countless reasons why we should not let religious doctrine dictate to whom rights and freedoms should be given.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I disagree. One thing Jesus was clear about was in Matthew 10. Obviously when Jesus said he did not come to bring peace, but a sword, he knew there were going to be divisions, and explained it in detail, even describing that families would be at odds with each other while one would follow Christ and the other would not. We see that today. It isn’t agreement that is important, its the relationship with Christ, the representation of his love, and his power as God that is important. When it comes to those things, Paul said it best: Notice when he talked about the Holy Spirit, there is NO law against the fruits of the Holy Spirit (referring to the law of Moses at that time).

            22But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!

            24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there. 25Since we are living by the Spirit, let us follow the Spirit’s leading in every part of our lives. 26Let us not become conceited, or provoke one another, or be jealous of one another.

          • SpeakTruth

            I understand you think it is very clear, however, you do agree that others read the gospels (and the bible in its entirety) and interpret it differently, right? Or, some that have studied Arabic or Greek know that the meaning of some words can be translated differently which can alter the meaning of the passage? Or that the people of the time of Jesus used words differently that we do today? Or that some Christians agree with your interpretation, but believe that it is god’s responsibility to judge? Or that government should not legislate nor punish according to what the bible says?
            You certainly seem think the bible is clear in its rules and directions. All I am saying is that other Christians believe the same but they disagree with you.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Oh yes I agree with you. Aramaic, Greek, and Hebrew (sorry not Arabic) were all written texts of the Bible, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Psalms, and there are separate translations (refer to Biblehub), but 98% of all of the translations, are accurate in detail. An amazing part of the Biblehub is to get commentary on the scriptures as written in comparison side by side. Once you make a correlation, then the scholar interpretation and meaning becomes very clear. it even provides cross referencing which shows the prophecies from say Isaiah to the fullfillment of the prophecies by Jesus, verse by verse. There are some 1576 prophecies that are uniquely applied to Christ and the Old Testament. It is amazing to me that once you apply the relationships with content to context, how the whole Bible ties together, it would be almost impossible to conclude that it is not the truth. Many people don’t have that opportunity to discover those things within the Bible, me included, but by using a source that provides information from over 1000 scholars and theologions (even archielogy) (spelling sorry), you can dig deeper into the Bible. It is compelling to say the least.

          • SpeakTruth

            Yes, Aramaic, sorry about that. And while as a non-theist, I disagree with just about your entire post, it isn’t really non-theists and people of other religions to whom I am referring.
            I do truly understand that when you read the bible you believe Jesus is crystal clear in his teachings. My point is that other Christians read the same bible and agree with you on certain points, yet disagree with you on others. Those Christians believe just as strongly as you do, yet disagree on how Jesus would want Christians to treat the poor, or the LGBT community, or people who divorce and remarry, or contraception, or the environment, etc.
            My personal opinion on the bible and its historical accuracy is really beside the point. But, there are certainly scholars who have spent their entire careers reading, studying, and researching the bible and disagree with you on the fulfillment of prophesies, the historical accuracy of the bible, the divinity of Jesus and that Jesus even claimed his own divinity, who wrote the gospels and when they were written, and many other things.
            Do you not acknowledge that others read and study the bible and arrive at different conclusions?

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I already made a statement concerning that question. I’ll let Jesus answer those questions. Refer to the Biblehub, and use a search there about your questions. It will bring up what Jesus says about your questions along with commentary. Thanks

    • UmustBKiddinMe

      “the Alabama Senate feels that marriage is between a man and a woman, that marriage in a same gender relationship is sinful”

      The Alabama Senate is not able to feel. It is a legislative body. The members of the Senate may feel certain ways, but the Senate itself is not able to. Nor would it be reasonable to state the every member of the Alabama Senate feels the same way about this issue, as they do not.

      ” following the wishes of the majority of the people.”

      There are approximately 3,000,000 registered voters in Alabama. Of that, only 859,285 (28.6% of all eligible) voted on Amendment 774. Of the 28.6% who voted, 81% voted in favor (23.1% of all eligible voters) and 19% voted against (5.4% of all eligible voters). That means that 17.7% of voters decided that same-gender marriage should not be legal in Alabama. That most certainly does not qualify as “the majority of the people”. The vast majority of the people didn’t even care enough to vote.

      “but this reminds us that religion,, expressly Christian, has always existed within government both federally and at the state level.”

      While most elected representatives claim to be members of the Christian faith, Christianity itself does not exist “in government”. Doing so is strictly forbidden by the constitution. The US is not a Theocracy.

      “In this case, the government has set out the rules, the law, and it favors the marriage of a man and a woman. Not a same gender marriage.”

      Whatever laws the state sets regarding any license issued by the state must be constitutional. When restrictions are put into place on the ability of citizens to access a right offered by the state, those restrictions must be based upon rational, compelling, and legally valid reasons.

      A basis of: “It’s not consistent with the religious views of some” meets none of those criteria. Nor does: “It’s not consistent with the religious views of the majority”.

      The US is a constitutional republic. We are not a pure democracy and we are most certainly not a Christian Theocracy.

      • gods need not apply

        Very good reply. Mine was taken down. I will try again.

        • UmustBKiddinMe

          Thanks!

        • Deina

          They keep taking mine down, too.

          I could understand them taking posts down that were vulgar, or personal attacks, but mine are neither.

          Apparently they’re afraid that the “god” they believe in can’t face the truth.

          • gods need not apply

            I quoted the Treaty of Tripoli which has been the law of the land since 1797. I also said that the Confederate army was following the will of the majority. Might doesn’t equal right. I thought the Crusades, Inquisition and Holocaust would have proven that…

      • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

        I understand your comment and reasoning. When you consider the clause of the 1st amendment there are two interpretations. One is a separation of church and state literally without crossover. The other interpretation is that a religion cannot be mandated by government to be a forced religion to all people. When I discuss things I am using the interpretation that government cannot mandate a particular religion. However religion in reality is present in every day operations of government both state and federal. When I state that roughly 80% of the populace is Christian in the U.S. I’m making the statement that a majority of people in the U.S. are Christian, nothing more or less about that statement. You may say that people (Alabama State) cannot feel, but that isn’t reality. They do feel, as you can clearly see in the article. You may also say that Christian faith is not in government but again that is semantics. You can use the example of the 10 commandments in the Chamber of Commerce as an example of Christian, and or/Jewish. You can consider the number of Presidents that are Christian, and believe it or not make decisions based on their particular beliefs in Christ. Throughout the beginning of our first President you can see the representation of the Bible, God, and Jesus in the thoughts of men in high places. To not see that is ignoring the presence of faith through religion within government.

        • UmustBKiddinMe

          “When you consider the clause of the 1st amendment there are two interpretations.”

          I don’t believe there are two distinct and separate interpretations. It is clear that the 1st does not allow the government to establish a religion. In addition, the courts have determined that the state is not allowed to promote any specific religion.

          “You may say that people (Alabama State) cannot feel,”

          I said that people can feel. The Alabama State is not a person.

          “Throughout the beginning of our first President you can see the representation of the Bible, God, and Jesus in the thoughts of men in high places.”

          Most definitely. People certainly bring with them their personal belief systems in any endeavor. The question is whether they utilize their personal belief system as a basis for imposing on the freedom, liberty, and equality of those who do not share their beliefs. The ones who understand their job, and our constitution, do not. Just as the founders did when they wrote the constitution.

          If you have some rational, compelling, and legally valid reasons why the state – which represents all of the people regardless of their religious beliefs – should deny two citizens of the same gender from entering into civil marriage, please, provide them.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Look up the two clauses. Then look at the hypocrisy taking place in a school where the teacher is promoting G and L. Then look at the statements about Bibles being passed out to students in school, than reference my opinion concerning groups. You keep saying personal belief systems, and attributed that to our founders. Let me provide you with some other quotes: I remind you that some are presenting these comments in letters and in public.

            George Washington:

            “The Hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations.” – George Washington’s letter of August 20, 1778 to Brig. General Thomas Nelson

            “Almighty and eternal Lord God, the great Creator of heaven and earth, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; look down from heaven in pity and compassion upon me Thy servant, who humbly prostrate myself before Thee.” – George Washington’s prayer at Valley Forge

            “Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports…. And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure; reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. ‘Tis substantially true, that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government.” – Farewell Address, 1796

            John Adams:

            “We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion…. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

            James Madison, the chief architect of the Constitution:

            “We have staked the whole future of American civilization not on the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.”

            James Monroe:

            “The liberty, prosperity, and the happiness of our country will always be the object of my most fervent prayers to the Supreme Author of All Good.” – March 5, 1821 in his Second Inaugural Address

            John Quincy Adams:

            “It is no slight testimonial, both to the merit and worth of Christianity, that in all ages since its promulgation the great mass of those who have risen to eminence by their profound wisdom and integrity have recognized and reverenced Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of the living God.”

            Abraham Lincoln:

            Abraham Lincoln, the 16th President of the United States, led our nation through the Civil War. On March 30, 1863 President Lincoln, in his Proclamation for a Day of Prayer and Fasting, called the nation to find spiritual strength through prayer:

            “Whereas, it is the duty of nations as well as of men to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions in humble sorrow yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon, and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history: that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord:

            “And, insomuch as we know that, by His divine law, nations like individuals are subjected to punishments and chastisement in this world, may we not justly fear that the awful calamity of civil war, which now desolates the land may be but a punishment inflicted upon us for our presumptuous sins to the needful end of our national reformation as a whole people?

            “We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of Heaven. We have been preserved these many years in peace and prosperity. We have grown in numbers, wealth and power as no other nation has ever grown.

            “But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious Hand which preserved us in peace, and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us; and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own.

            “Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us!

            “It behooves us then to humble ourselves before the offended Power, to confess our national sins and to pray for clemency and forgiveness… All this being done, in sincerity and truth, let us then rest humbly in the hope authorized by the Divine teachings, that the united cry of the nation will be heard on high and answered with blessing no less than the pardon of our national sins and the restoration of our now divided and suffering country to its former happy condition of unity and peace.”

            Woodrow Wilson:

            “America was born a Christian nation. America was born to exemplify that devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the revelations of the Holy Scripture.”

            Teddy Roosevelt, 1917:

            “… in this actual world, a churchless community where men have abandoned or scoffed at or ignored their religious needs is a community on the rapid downgrade.”

            Calvin Coolidge:

            Unless we cling to the “things of the spirit,” Coolidge warns,

            “all our material prosperity, overwhelming though it may appear, will turn to a barren scepter in our grasp. If we are to maintain the great heritage that has been bequeathed to us, we must be like-minded as the fathers who created it. We must not sink into a pagan materialism. We must cultivate the reverence which they had for the things that are holy. We must follow the spiritual and moral leadership which they showed. We must keep replenished, that they may glow with a more compelling flame, the altar fires before which they worshiped.”

            Dwight Eisenhower:

            “Without God, there can be no American form of government, nor an American way of life.”

            Harry Truman:

            “The fundamental basis of this nation’s law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teaching we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don’t think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don’t have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in the right for anybody except the state.”

            Ronald Reagan:

            “If America ever ceases to be a nation under God, we will simply become a nation gone under.”

            “Government growing beyond our consent had become a lumbering giant, slamming shut the gates of opportunity, threatening to crush the very roots of our freedom. What brought America back? The American people brought us back — with quiet courage and common sense; with undying faith that in this nation under God the future will be ours, for the future belongs to the free.” – State of the Union Address, February 4, 1986

            George W. Bush:

            “Freedom and fear, justice and cruelty, have always been at war, and we know that God is not neutral between them.”

            “I believe all these things because freedom is not America’s gift to the world, it is the Almighty God’s gift to every man and woman in this world.”

            “America stands for liberty, for the pursuit of happiness and for the unalienable right for life. This right to life cannot be granted or denied by government because it does not come from government, it comes from the Creator of life.”

            “Faith gives the assurance that our lives and our history have a moral design.”

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            There is no clause regarding separation of church and state in the constitution.

            What hypocrisy do you believe is taking place by the discussion of homosexuality in the classroom?

            Lovely quotes. And, again, I’m very pleased that our founders understood the importance of separating their personal religious beliefs from the document that serves as the basis for our form of government and laws.

            Here’s some you might find interesting:

            “It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will be best guarded agst. by an entire abstinence of the Gov’t from interfence in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect agst. trespasses on its legal rights by others.”
            James Madison

            “What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.”
            James Madison

            “I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved– the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!”
            John Adams

            “Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law.”
            Thomas Jefferson

            “When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself so that its professors are obliged to call for the help of the civil power, ’tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.”

            Benjamin Franklin

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Have you ever read the book “Persecution” by David Limbaugh (not affilated with Rush). That is the exact points I have been attempting to make. Do you know the history of how schools came to be in America? You can find the book in PDF form free with a Google search. You should read it for yourself. It will possibly alter your perspective. That is up to you however.

            Here is an EXERT: as the “separation of church and state,” without understanding their true meaning, especially under the Constitution as originally written. So let’s establish a few basic facts.

            First, we must recognize that the framers believed that religious freedom was of paramount importance; it was a primary reason for emigration to America. Religious freedom was so important to them that they sought to guaranty it by the placement of two separate clauses in the very first amendment to the Constitution. The First Amendment begins with the two clauses back to back: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . .” The first clause is known as “The Establishment Clause” and the second, the “Free Exercise Clause.

            You’ll note there is no language in either-or anywhere else in the Constitution-mandating a wall of separation between church and state. That phrase, as we’ll see in Chapter One, comes from a letter of Thomas Jefferson, several years after the Constitution and Bill of Rights were well in place. Moreover, the phrase has been taken out of context, distorting what Jefferson meant. Nevertheless, those advocating a strict separation (often referred to in this book as “separationists”), point to the “Establishment Clause” as evidence the framers intended a strict separation.

            But it’s important to understand that both clauses, the establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause, were adopted by the framers for the explicit purpose of promoting, not suppressing religious freedom.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Exert: Persecution – seems to support my original position.

            You’ll note there is no language in either-or anywhere else in the Constitution-mandating a wall of separation between church and state. That phrase, as we’ll see in Chapter One, comes from a letter of Thomas Jefferson, several years after the Constitution and Bill of Rights were well in place. Moreover, the phrase has been taken out of context, distorting what Jefferson meant. Nevertheless, those advocating a strict separation (often referred to in this book as “separationists”), point to the “Establishment Clause” as evidence the framers intended a strict separation.

            But it’s important to understand that both clauses, the establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause, were adopted by the framers for the explicit purpose of promoting, not suppressing religious freedom. That may be obvious with the Free Exercise Clause-its literal language says as much-but people tend to overlook it with the Establishment Clause. The purpose of the Establishment Clause was to prevent the federal government from establishing a particular denominational religion that would serve to inhibit our religious freedoms; it was not intended to keep Christianity out of the public square. Yet today the Establishment Clause is routinely used to suppress people’s free exercise rights of religion in our schools and in public life.

            Of course, one of the problems of applying original intent analysis to these issues is that the relationship between government and education today is radically different from how it was at the time of the nation’s founding.

            In the first place, the Establishment Clause only restricted the federal government, not the states. Its language makes that quite clear, “Congress shall make no law…” At the time of the ratification of the First Amendment, many states in fact had state-established religions. There is no better evidence-besides its plain language-that the Establishment Clause was never intended to prevent state governments from establishing their own religions. Again, the language of the clause is instructive. “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.” That clearly meant that the federal government was precluded from establishing a national religion, but also that the federal government was precluded from interfering with the right of individual states to do as they pleased respecting the establishment of their own religions

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            I’ll ask again: What hypocrisy do you believe is taking place by the discussion of homosexuality in the classroom?

            ” were adopted by the framers”

            Neither were adopted by the framers. They were adopted by the first Congress.

            “Moreover, the phrase has been taken out of context, distorting what Jefferson meant.”

            Have you spoken with Jefferson regarding that? I know of no other way for you to say with certainly that the present application of separation of Church and State has been taken out of context and distorts what Jefferson meant.

            “Yet today the Establishment Clause is routinely used to suppress people’s free exercise rights of religion in our schools and in public life.”

            Such as?

            “In the first place, the Establishment Clause only restricted the federal government, not the states.”

            Yeah. Things change. States change their constitutions. Oh well.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            This refers to the hypocrisy I’m talking about. I thought you had already seen this comment:

            Oh it’s ok to teach about same gender s_x and relationships, but its not ok to pass out Bibles at school. Does anyone see the hypocrisy in this. Where is the FFRF now, when are they going to write a letter complaining that this teacher isn’t teaching classroom materials, but trying to convince students that it’s ok to believe that SS is ok but a Bible isn’t. How about this teacher designing a group instead of going class to class. That is what was proposed by the teacher that was passing out Bibles (accepted voluntarily). If all things are equal as atheists continue to argue, than equally this teacher should not be teaching kids about her personal preferences. This another example of choosing a life style, and then trying to convince kids that its fashionable to be a L or G. Again all I can say is UNBELIEVABLE!! How much more is going to be forced down the throats of people who don’t agree with L or G lifestyles and then promoting it in our schools. And atheists certainly will agree this is ok to them.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            “Oh it’s ok to teach about same gender s_x and relationships, but its not ok to pass out Bibles at school. Does anyone see the hypocrisy in this. ”

            Probably not, as there is no hypocrisy in that. I would suggest that you gain a better understanding of what the word “hypocrisy” means, as it is not apt in the example you gave. For example: If someone said that Bibles should be in schools because that is something that is a part of freedom of religion, but then fought the handing out of Korans, that would be hypocrisy. The teaching of sexuality and the promotion of religion are two completely unrelated topics.

            “That is what was proposed by the teacher that was passing out Bibles (accepted voluntarily).”

            The state is not allowed to promote religious beliefs. I don’t know what is so difficult to understand. Is your faith so shallow and your arguments for it so weak, that you need the government to promote it?

            “This another example of choosing a life style, and then trying to convince kids that its fashionable to be a L or G.”

            So you are suggesting that this person “chose” to be homosexual? What is your basis for that?

            Where in the article does it state that she told children that it is “fashionable” to be lesbian or a gay man? Please tell me how, given the chorus of folks who speak out so loudly against homosexuality, the ability to be discriminated against in housing, employment, and public accommodation, the assertions of some clergy that homosexuals will spend eternity in the fires of hell, the lack of equal treatment under the law, the teasing, harassment, and bullying that occur, it would be “fashionable” to be gay?

            “How much more is going to be forced down the throats of people who don’t agree with L or G lifestyles and then promoting it in our schools.”

            What is being “forced down the throats” of people? Are people not free to believe as they like? Are people not free to accept or not accept whatever they care to? Are people not free to condone or condemn whatever they care to? Is anyone being forced to be homosexual or to accept homosexuality?

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            You have already answered those questions by inference. Who mentioned anything about fires of hell certainly not me. Please, harrassment, try being a Christian for a day. Do you not see hollywood? Fashionable is a kind word. Yes I asked the question are you another that is going to force L and G lifestyles on others? You seem to want to. Are you suggesting that she did not choose it, based on her description to the kids. Really, you cannot be that naive. I know you’re not, but you do like playing the game now don’t you. Please, be real. It doesn’t suit you to be illogical.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            “Who mentioned anything about fires of hell”

            Seriously? Do you not read the comments on here? Are you not aware of the sermons that are preached?

            “certainly not me.”

            I didn’t say that you had. Do you believe that homosexuals who do not “repent” will spend eternity in hell?

            “Please, harrassment, try being a Christian for a day.”

            Ok, that was absolutely hilarious. Seriously, I laughed out loud. Oh, the poor Christians. Their members occupy nearly all positions in government. Their holidays are celebrated across the nation. Their churches are everywhere. Their right to worship is protected by the Constitution. They are protected from discrimination in housing, employment, and public accommodation. Such a hard life they have.

            So, tell me, when was the last time you were harassed because of your faith? When was the last time anyone you personally know was harassed because of their faith? The vast majority of my friends and family are Christian. I am unaware that ANY of them have faced ANY harassment because of their faith. Spare me the false persecution complex.

            “Fashionable is a kind word.”

            No, fashionable is an inaccurate word.

            “are you another that is going to force L and G lifestyles on others?”

            I have no ability to force any lifestyle on someone else. People are free to choose whatever lifestyle they care to.

            “Are you suggesting that she did not choose it, based on her description to the kids.”

            Yes, I am. You have not proven otherwise. It is illogical to suggest that a person would choose to be gay given the tremendous societal downsides that go along with it.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Right now!

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            How are you being harassed “right now”? Or are the people you personally know being harassed “right now”? And, if so, in what way?

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            You harrass me daily lol

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            Poor thing.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I know right lol

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Just so you know about this, I wanted you to see it first hand. See how a competitor is going to take advantage of the cake drama, and why didn’t the two L go to her, wait, maybe they will.

            According to reports, a competitor of Sweet Cakes by Melissa, run by Aaron and Melissa Klein, contacted GoFundMe in seeking to stop the fundraiser, which had raised over $100,000 within a day before being shut down hours later.

            Lisa Watson of Cupcake Jones, a homosexual advocate, wrote on her Facebook page. “The GoFundMe terms of service address hate speech, bigotry, criminal activity and sexism among other things in their campaign … The amount of money they have raised in a matter of a few hours by thousands of anonymous cowards is disgusting.”

            Within an hour of her complaint, the fundraiser was removed, and Jones posted a screenshot Friday night of the “campaign not found” message where the crowdfunding effort had been to rejoice that the page had been taken down. According to her Facebook page, she made the photo her profile picture, but later replaced it with an award that her business received for their homosexual advocacy.

            Others state that a number of campaigns may be found on the site that seek to raise funds surrounding those fighting criminal convictions.

            “So if your throat is already under the government boot, you’re [disqualified],” wrote Jay Richards for The Stream. “This is a form of cronyism—of collusion between a private business and the state to destroy that business’s competitors. … Note that Lisa Jones is motivated by disgust, not only at her competitor, but at those who stepped forward to help her competitor in a time of need.”

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            ” and why didn’t the two L go to her,”

            Well, it could be because they already were doing business with the bakery they went to. It could be that Cupcake Jones in located in a different city. It could be that they had no idea about the existence of Cupcake Jones or the sexuality of its owner. It could be that they thought a place with “cakes” in the name might be more likely to have what they wanted than a business with “cupcake” in the name.

            “Others state that a number of campaigns may be found on the site that seek to raise funds surrounding those fighting criminal convictions.”

            What? Other people are also violated GoFundMe’s terms of service? Well if some people are doing it, then I guess it’s OK for everyone to do it. Yes, that makes perfect sense. If there are other GoFundMe efforts that violate GFM’s terms of service, then someone should bring it to their attention.”

            ““So if your throat is already under the government boot”

            Gotta love the hyperbole. Apparently Mr. Richards believes that anyone who is held accountable to the law is “under the government boot”.

            “collusion between a private business and the state to destroy that business’s competitors.”

            Oh my. Just beyond ridiculous.

            “Note that Lisa Jones is motivated by disgust, not only at her competitor, but at those who stepped forward to help her competitor in a time of need.”

            And he would know that LIsa is motivated by disgust, how?

  • http://googlelove.org/ MizKrys

    Amen

  • mrdsoccer

    God has also made it clear not to divorce, spill your seed, sleep with your wife while on her period, yada yada yada or be greedy sh**s but that certainly doesn’t stop these conservatives now does it! Its only perversion in their eyes if it’s not what they are doing! So over the “righteous hypocracy” in this country, its disgusting.

    • gods need not apply

      I don’t see many of the “righteous” leaving the corners of their crops for travelers or shunning clothing of mixed materials either.

      • Paul Hiett

        Or taking their women to the edge of town during that time of the month…

  • OldArkie

    I pray that Alabama will keep holding such a stand, and other states will join them.

  • mark

    Never seen so many people love Alabama so much. I get a better sense of the demographic of this site now.

  • richard

    Go Alabama….please stand up for the law of God as well as the true intent of nature.

  • gods need not apply

    Circular arguments. Basically you are saying I will believe when I believe. Placebos work exactly that way. I’m sorry but you are mistaken about my ignorance. I am one of those that the church likes to pretend doesn’t exist. I was once a believer until I opened my eyes and really saw. I overcame my indoctrination that I am inherently flawed because of how a supposedly perfect deity made me. I hope you can as well, in humanity’s name.

    • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

      I agree with the first of your comment, you’re using circular arguments. What exactly do you mean when you say you were once a believer? A believer in what? Who opened your eyes? (I should say who closed them based on your comments, but for the sake of this discussion, answering the questions will work.

    • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

      You are one of the ones the Bible said would fall away from the truth. You prove the Bible to be true through your falling away.

      • gods need not apply

        And my comment not posting proves that Christian News does not believe in fair discussion.

        I responded: And recorded history and scientific fact prove that the bible is not true.

        Or do you really believe in talking snakes, that people lived at the same time as dinosaurs, that the earth is flat and supported by a pillar in space, that there is a solid firmament located between the earth and the “waters” of space?

        • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

          Good luck in the after life when you are face to face with the one you walked a way from.

          • gods need not apply

            Good luck in the afterlife when you’re face to face with the thousands you walked away from.

            Did you intend to answer the questions or just avoid the issue?

    • Lupe

      You, evidently didn’t listen well to what was being taught:

      To hate my family? Luke 14:26

      In context, this means put God above all else. No more than that.

      To stone my children? Deuteronomy 21:18-21
      To rape? Numbers 31:7-18
      Deuteronomy 13:15, Joshua 10:40, 1 Samuel 15:2-3…

      These are all Old Testament verses and apply to the history of Israel. There were reasons for these laws at the time.

      They DO NOT, however, apply to Christianity.
      Jesus laid it out pretty well:
      “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength.” Covers the first four commandments.
      “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Covers the last six commandments.
      When He died on the cross He said “It is finished.”.

      He is the final sacrifice. There is NOTHING we can do to enter the kingdom of heaven. We can’t pray enough, suffer enough or give enough.
      If you understood Christianity, you would know that ours is a relationship with God, through Jesus. No more, no less.

      All of the nonsense the lame media and non-believers put out is just that: NONSENSE.
      True Christians, don’t hate anybody. As written above, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Jesus also said: “Love your enemy, if he is hungry give him food, if he is thirsty give him drink.”
      So, as a Christian, that’s what I try to practice. Am I always successful? No. I am human and will make mistakes until I am placed in the ground.
      Will I enter heaven after death?
      Yes. Why? God says: “If you confess with your lips Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart he was resurrected from the dead you will be saved.”
      Does it matter that YOU don’t believe that? Nope.
      Christianity is, again, a relationship. If you decide you don’t want that relationship, well…
      You are wrong. The church doesn’t pretend you don’t exist. As a matter of fact, we constantly pray for you. If you had studied your Bible, you would know that it predicts your ilk will fall away (1 Tim 4:1).

      It’s a shame that you were exposed to the Truth but reject it for what the world has to offer.

      The church will continue to pray for and recognize that you exist.

  • railhead

    Harming children of gay couples, eh? What about what adult children of homosexual couples say:

    …”Klein said she was taught that “some Jews and most Christians were
    stupid and hated gays and were violent,” and that homosexuals were “much
    more creative and artistic” because they were not repressed and were
    naturally more ‘feeling.’”

    “At the same time I was given the message that if I did not agree
    (which I did not), I was stupid and damned to a life of punishing
    hostility from my mother and her partner,” she recounts. “They did
    this with the encouragement of all their gay friends in the community
    and they were like a cheering squad. I was only allowed out of my room
    to go to school. This could go on for weeks.”

    Before anyone says this is an isolated incident, note the part that says “they did this with the encouragement of all their gay friends in the community.” So here the only important thing in their child’s life was what they thought of someone else’s sexual activities.

    “I wasn’t surrounded by average heterosexual couples,” she says in her
    court brief. “Dad’s partners slept and ate in our home, and they took
    me along to meeting places in the LGBT communities. I was exposed
    to overt sexual activities like sodomy, nudity, pornography, group sex,
    sadomasochism and the ilk.”

    Wow, sounds like a wholesome family atmosphere to me. How dare someone try to harm children by making it illegal to be married and be permanently in a family of this sort.

    • Paul Hiett

      Having read that same article a while back, it is obviously misconstrued as being evidence against gay marriage. All this is is evidence of bad parenting, not to mention that those interviewed had their opinions quote as fact.

      Case in point…”Stefanowicz explained. “Most adult children from gay households do not
      feel safe or free to publicly express their stories and life-long
      challenges; they fear losing professional licenses, not obtaining
      employment in their chosen field, being cut off from some family members
      or losing whatever relationship they have with their gay parent(s).
      Some gay parents have threatened to leave no inheritance, if the
      children don’t accept their parent’s partner du jour.””

      This proves that tha author is extremely biased, along with these “children”, and willing to say things as facts when in fact what they are professing is nothing more than “opinion”. Stefanowicz has no way of knowing what other kids feel, what they are going through, and certainly don’t know the financial futures of other people to claim that gay parents are threatening to leave no inheritance.

      IF the things that these kids went through are true, it’s simply an example of bad parenting, and nothing more.

      I could post thousands of examples of hetero couples abusing their children…does that men hetero marriage should be outlawed too?

      • railhead

        When you run afoul of supporters of the “gay agenda” you run in to some of the exact same kinds of behaviors as these parents.

        And the point is, the judge is using “it harms children” to support this agenda. This is a tired and lame rhetorical argument used by just about everyone. Spraying weed killer can harm children.

  • BarkingDawg

    Why is it that those preachers yelling the loudest about the evils of sexual perversion are the ones found later, dead in a wetsuit, self strangled while masturbating.

  • roald

    Which god? Before you answer, consider how you know this, how you know that source is right, and what every other religion uses to know they are right.

  • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

    Another Amen !

  • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

    Amen !

  • roald

    Every avid member of every religion is equally convinced they are correct. This is why the founders of our nation created a secular state with religious freedom for all and with no bias toward any religion or none by the state.

  • roald

    If you are correct, I will see. If I am correct neither of us will see. If we are both wrong, we will both regret our decisions.

    Personally, I would rather lead a life following the golden rule and take my chances, than let some preacher tell me what is right and wrong.

    BTW, I notice that you have chosen not to answer my question.