U.S. Supreme Court Declines to Hear Appeal Over N.J. Ban on Helping Homosexual Youth

sad child pdWASHINGTON — The U.S. Supreme Court has declined to hear an appeal over a New Jersey law that bans therapists and counselors from providing help to homosexual youth to overcome temptation.

As previously reported, reiterating his belief that homosexuality is “not a sin,” the Republican governor of New Jersey signed a bill into law in August 2013 that bans the use of conversion or reparative therapy, or to otherwise help minors who are struggling with feelings toward those of the same sex.

Text of the bill notes that the law bans “the practice of seeking to change a person’s sexual orientation, including, but not limited to, efforts to change behaviors, gender identity, or gender expressions, or to reduce or eliminate sexual or romantic attractions or feelings toward a person of the same gender.” However, the regulation does not apply to counseling that seeks to affirm homosexual emotions or behaviors.

“[This bill] shall not include counseling for a person seeking to transition from one gender to another, or counseling that provides acceptance, support, and understanding of a person or facilitates a person’s coping, social support, and identity exploration and development, including sexual orientation-neutral interventions to prevent or address unlawful conduct or unsafe sexual practices; and does not seek to change sexual orientation,” it explains.

The bill was then challenged in federal court by the Christian legal organization Liberty Counsel, who represented several counselors and Christian organizations. A separate lawsuit was also filed by the parents of a teenager who desired help to overcome his struggles with homosexuality, but was now being denied from receiving it.

“[The unnamed teen] has a sincerely held religious belief and conviction that homosexuality is wrong and immoral, and he wanted to address that value conflict because his unwanted same-sex attractions and gender confusion are contrary to the fundamental religious values that he holds,” the lawsuit stated.

In November 2013, the ban was upheld by Judge Freda Wolfson, appointed to the bench by then-President George W. Bush. Wolfson opined that the ban only regulates professional conduct, which is allotted fewer protections than free speech.

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“I conclude that A3371 on its face does not target speech, and ‘counseling’ is not entitled to special constitutional protection merely because it is primarily carried out through talk therapy,” she wrote.

Liberty Counsel then filed an appeal with the Third Circuit Court of Appeals, which unanimously upheld the restriction 3-0 last September. It concluded that although professional counseling is a form of speech, it differs from free speech.

“[T]he verbal communication that occurs during SOCE counseling is speech that enjoys some degree of protection under the First Amendment,” Judge D. Brooks Smith, likewise appointed to the bench by George W. Bush, wrote on behalf of the panel. “Because Plaintiffs are speaking as state-licensed professionals within the confines of a professional relationship, however, this level of protection is diminished.”

He explained that speech that is “used to provide personalized services to a client based on the professional’s expert knowledge and judgment,” may be regulated under the law. However, when a therapist is “speaking to the public at large or offering her personal opinion to a client, her speech remains entitled to the full scope of protection afforded by the First Amendment.”

Liberty Counsel then appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court, but on Monday, the court declined to hear the challenge, allowing the lower court ruling to stand.

President Mat Staver said that the court should have taken up the case since there are conflicting opinions among appeals courts.

“[Youth] could pursue a counselor who tells them that their religion is all wrong, their values need to be changed, they just need to accept homosexuality, but they can’t get a counselor who is ready, willing, and able to help them meet the objective of change which is something that they most desperately seek,” he lamented to OneNewsNow.

Both New Jersey and California have bans in place.

“The only other alternative that parents have is to move out of those states or to seek counsel from an unlicensed provider,” he said. “[But] that’s not an alternative because they can’t move, number one. And two, they want to go to an expert who’s trained in this area. Parents should never have to face that kind of a choice.”


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  • Paul Hiett

    $10 says the kids are fine with whom they are, but that it’s the parents that aren’t, and are forcing this on them. So sad…rather than trying to force them to change what they can’t change, perhaps the parents could change how they treat their own children?

    • The Last Trump

      $10 says Paul Hiett could care less about the welfare of young victims of “politically correct” sexual confusion and anarchy.
      As long as his deviant agenda is allowed to spread aggressively and pervasively, Paul’s more than happy to see young people who are suffering denied treatment.
      What a great Naz! you would have made Paul. Heil Satan!
      Seriously, get some help man. Just because your daughter is gay you would see victims of the militant LGBT agenda DENIED treatment? Shameful.
      No one should EVER be denied treatment for ANYTHING. Do you even know just how sick you really are?

      • Peter Leh

        even the co founder of exodus international said this therapy does not work and is detrimental.

        i dunno. education is the key. thank god we stopped the lobotomy treatment back in the 70’s

        • Richard

          Lots of people have trouble quitting smoking too. Does that mean no one can quit?

          • Peter Leh

            abstain? you bet!

          • Richard

            Your primitive understanding of therapy is the problem. People make behavioral change everyday. To suggest otherwise is naive…or deliberately misleading. In either case, you’re wrong.

          • Paul Hiett

            Tell him all about Alan Medinger, and Exodus International, and how well the current President, Alan Chambers, thinks reparative therapy is great and works for everyone.

            I’m sure you could convince him with that example!

            But hey, I’m just a liar and a hypocrite, so what I do I know about facts, right?

          • Richard

            Judas betrayed Christ. Do you believe that means no one has become a Christian?

            And you are a hypocrite and liar to keep beating your dead horse.

            Did you know there are degrees of punishment in hell?

          • Peter Leh

            did i say people do NOT change behavior?

          • Paul Hiett

            Richards problem is that he can’t distinguish between “attraction” and “behavior”.

          • Richard

            Are you asserting homosexuality isn’t a behavior?

          • Peter Leh

            I assert no more than heterosexuality is or is not a behavior.

          • Richard

            Almost 80% of the 3,400 heterosexuals in the same study said that their preferences and behavior were learned – Cameron, et al (1989) Effect of homosexuality upon public health and social order. Psychological Rpts 64:1167-79; Cameron, et al (1988) Homosexuals in the armed forces. Psychological Rpts 62:211-9; Cameron, et al (1986) Child molestation and homosexuality. Psychological Rpts 58:327-37; Cameron (1985) Homosexual molestation of children/sexual interaction of teacher and pupil. Psychological Rpts 57:1227-36.

          • Peter Leh

            ??

          • MisterPine

            This “Cameron” you cite is Paul Cameron.

            In 1983, the American Psychological Association expelled Cameron for non-cooperation with an ethics investigation. Position statements issued by the American Sociological Association, Canadian Psychological Association and the Nebraska Psychological Association have accused Cameron of misrepresenting social science research.

            Paul Cameron was the chairman of the anti-gay hate group The Family Research Council (FRI).

            In the link attached, you may read the criticism he has earned from both individuals as well as professional organizations:

            http://en dotwikipedia dot org/wiki/Paul_Cameron

          • Peter Leh

            FRC …say no more

          • MisterPine

            Well, just a LITTLE more. For Richard to read:

            Dr. Paul Cameron is a homophobic psychologist. He runs the Family Research Institute with his son, Kirk who has a Ph.D. in statistics from Stanford University. You would think with that much academic experience, their research wouldn’t be so obviously flawed. However, their advocacy and their broad-brush statements — i.e., gays sexually abuse children
            at a higher rate than straights — have caused both the American
            Sociological Association and the Canadian Psychological Association to
            adopt resolutions criticizing the flawed and biased nature of their
            “research.”

          • Paul Hiett

            Yeah, he keeps throwing these names out without actually vetting them first.

          • MisterPine

            It isn’t a behavior. Sexual intercourse is a behavior. Homosexuality is about attraction.

          • Bobby Mae

            You seem quite invested in other people’s sexual orientation and behavior. Are you one of these ex gays?

          • Ambulance Chaser

            You yourself just said, above, that quitting smoking doesn’t mean the smoker is not still addicted. You still crave cigarettes. If you want to equate this to homosexuality, not engaging in homosexual act does not mean you’re not gay. It just means you’re gay and not acting on it.

  • FoJC_Forever

    First, as took place years ago, ban ministers from legally providing counseling to people, forcing them to seek State approval. Second, pass laws which will control what counselors and therapists can talk about with their patients. A two pronged attack to cut them off from help and to force children to accept the temptations of the carnal flesh, which is being heavily promoted by those who are under direct control of demons and the Devil.

    Being tempted is not a sin. Tempting others is a sin.

    The Good News, through Jesus (the) Christ, is that homosexual temptations are dealt with like every other temptation, and the government can’t control Him. Through the power and presence of the Holy Spirit, children can overcome the demons which are drawing them into Sin. Parents and others can intercede in prayer, by the Authority of Jesus (the) Christ, to empower their children to resist the lurid draw of this horrid sin. Truly, children don’t need a counselor or therapist, they just need good, solid Biblical teaching about who they are in Christ and the present power of the Holy Spirit to save them.

    The Wicked are spreading their wretched ideals and temptations into every part of our society. Only those who will follow Jesus and receive His Power will overcome. The battle is the LORD’s, and He always wins.

    • Paul Hiett

      Psst…homosexuality is not an illness or mental condition. It’s simply a persons sexual orientation. Nothing they can change.

      • MisterPine

        And they always want to know why us atheists are here “trolling” their nice Christian forums. It’s because they continue to believe homosexuality is this thing that is a sickness that needs healing from Jesus.

        • Paul Hiett

          “Pray the gay away!” LOL

          • MattFCharlestonSC

            “Techniques used in conversion therapy have included aversive treatments, such as “the application of electric shock to the hands and/or genitals,” and “nausea-inducing drugs…administered simultaneously with the presentation of homoerotic stimuli…”

            — This does seem pretty Old Testament.

          • Paul Hiett

            Dark ages mentality to be sure.

          • Richard

            Hypocrite!

        • Richard

          It is. But those who don’t know God wouldn’t know that. But you will. Are you ready to meet him?

          • MisterPine

            Proselytizing is in poor taste, Richard. If there is a God I elect to believe he operates in a completely different way than you do. And science has taught us that homosexuality is not an illness.

          • Oboehner

            Science has taught us with a shove by gay activists, just as factual as the “gay gene” fraud.

          • MisterPine

            No amount of activism can change scientific facts, Boner. You know this.

          • Richard

            That’s a lie.

            Gay activism forced the APA to remove homosexual behavior from the DSM. And many others.

          • MisterPine

            THAT is a lie – moreover, an old, tired, debunked one.

          • Paul Hiett

            Is that a fact that you can prove, or your opinion?

          • Oboehner

            It’s your fantasy…

          • MisterPine

            The fantasy is all yours. It’s everyone else’s reality.

          • The Last Trump

            Just that it’s a perversion.
            You just can’t impregnate a turd.
            No matter how many times MisterPine tries. 🙁

          • MisterPine

            Impregnating a turd. Rumpy’s definiton of homosexuality. Isn’t he great, folks? Let’s give him a big hand!

          • Paul Hiett

            That quote deserves a mention elsewhere…

          • MisterPine

            Way ahead of you…check in about 3 days.

      • Richard

        Thousands upon thousands of ex-gays, which you deny, have already disproven your uninformed assertion. But I see you are still lying about it. It appears you can”t stop yourself form lying. Or were you born that way?

        • Paul Hiett

          Well, lets see, the American Medical Association, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American College of Pediatrics, and the American Academy of Pediatrics have all concluded that is not an illness, so I think I’ll defer to their conclusions, seeing as they are made up of people who study illness for a living.

          Or do you have some sort of evidence that can outweigh the conclusion of all the major professional medical organizations?

          No?

          Yeah.

          • Richard

            Sure, all of the ex-gays. The practical evidence negates the politically correct statements of the gay oppressed.

          • Paul Hiett

            So you can’t actually refute the facts. I didn’t think so.

          • MattFCharlestonSC

            You mean people like Gunter Baum, Michael Bussee, Gary Cooper, Ben Gresham, Noe Gutierrez, John Paulk, John Smid, Anthony Venn-Brown — All prominent figures in the ex-gay movement who turned around and admitted that it doesn’t work?

          • Richard

            No, all of the others that say it does work.

            Many people have a hard time quitting smoking too. Many return after quitting. Does that mean they were born to smoke?

          • Paul Hiett

            You just equated inhaling a chemical laden, addicting substance to sexual orientation.

            Ignorance doesn’t even begin to describe that.

          • Richard

            You are a liar and a hypocrite. Again.

          • MattFCharlestonSC

            Yea. These were just the people who were FOUNDERS or DIRECTORS of organizations which focused on changing sexual orientation who turned around and said it didn’t work. This is a form of brainwashing, and it should not be considered therapy.

        • UmustBKiddinMe

          “Thousands upon thousands of ex-gays”

          Really? “Thousands upon thousands”? Where did you come up with that?

          • Richard

            Books written by ex-gay authors:

            – Beyond Gay, by David Morrison

            – Born That Way? By Erin Eldridge

            – Closing the Closet: Testimonies of Deliverance from Homosexuality, Talbert Swan

            – Free Indeed, by Barbara Swallow

            – Growth Into Manhood: Resuming the Journey, by Alan Medinger

            – Healing Homosexuality: Case Studies of Reparative Therapy, by Joseph Nicolosi

            – Out of Egypt: Leaving Lesbianism Behind, by Jeanette Howard

            – A Place in the Kingdom, by Garrick and Ginger Hyde

            – Portraits of Freedom: 14 People Who Came Out of Homosexuality, by Bob Davies

            – Voices of Hope, 22 Personal Essays, Compiled by Ty Mansfield

            – You Don’t Have to be Gay, by Jeff Konrad

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            So not “thousands upon thousands”. Got it. Thanks.

            You also seem to under the mistaken impression that because a person was involved in a same-gender relationship that the person was exclusively homosexual. That is not a reasonable conclusion, as there are many bisexuals out there. Further, choosing to behave as a heterosexual does not equate to changing one’s sexuality.

          • Richard

            > So not “thousands upon thousands”. Got it. Thanks.

            Thats’ just a small sampling. Denying the truth doesn’t negate it.

            Any other explanation from you is an excuse, but not fact. You’ve already proven you don’t know the facts.

          • Paul Hiett

            Alan Medinger again? After I schooled you on him and Exodus?

            ROFL…

          • Richard

            You are a liar and a hypocrite.

        • MattFCharlestonSC

          The leader of Exodus came out as RE-gay and explained that it doesn’t work.

      • Faithwalker

        Paul, people come out of the homosexual lifestyle everyday. Case in point, I have a family member that lived that lifestyle for a number of years, she decided to no longer live that lifestyle, and now is dating men. BTW she is not even saved.

        • MattFCharlestonSC

          People leave the ex-gay movement all the time. Don’t be surprised when she goes back to women or you find out that she never left them.

          • Richard

            Dont’ be surprised if she doesn’t.

          • Paul Hiett

            Until you realize that what people are sexually attracted to has nothing do with a choice, your “arguments” are laughable, at best.

          • Richard

            You already admitted you aren’t gay, and that only gays understand gays. By your own admission, you don’t know what you are talking about.

            If you continue, you continue to be a liar and a hypocrite.

          • Paul Hiett

            Here’s where you fail basic comprehension.

            A man looks at women and is aroused. He looks at a man and is not aroused. He is straight.

            A woman looks at a man and is arouse. She looks at a woman and is not aroused. She is straight.

            A man looks at a man and is aroused. He looks at a woman and is not aroused. He is gay.

            A woman looks at a woman and is aroused. She looks at a man and is not aroused. She is gay.

            This is a simple explanation of “sexual orientation”. Since we have no control over the physiological and biological reactions our bodies have to what turns us on, it shows that sexual orientation is not and has never been a “choice”.

            The only choice is behavior that people choose in reaction to their sexual orientations. Nothing you say about religion at this point can be regarded as accurate.

          • Richard

            Give it a rest, Paul. You already said you aren’t gay and won’t know. Anything coming from you is a lie.

            Were you born a liar?

          • Paul Hiett

            So you can’t actually refute any of the points. Gotcha.

          • Faithwalker

            Your reality is not everyone’s else reality. I just finished listening to a young man share his testimony in how God delivered him from homosexuality because he decided to make a choice for God instead of caving into his fleshly desires. We all as humans need to be delivered from some type of darkness that has infiltrated our very soul.Christ is the answer. He is the truth and the light.

      • Oboehner

        Whatever helps you sleep at night, but if you claim that for gays, you have to also give that to every other form of perversion.

        • Paul Hiett

          Let’s see if you have the ability to answer this simple question.

          Do you get sexually aroused at the sight of another man?

          • Richard

            Hypocrite! Liar!

          • Paul Hiett

            If you’re too much of a coward to respond to a post without insults, then please do not respond to my questions to others.

            I’m simply asking you to show a little maturity. Thanks.

          • Richard

            You are a liar and hypocrite. You don’t deserve any attention. This is my last.

          • The Last Trump

            Hear! Hear!
            Second THAT motion. 🙂

          • Paul Hiett

            Ok, no worries. Have a great day!

          • MisterPine

            You are being dishonest.

          • Richard

            Paul says he believes in live and let live. Yet, he doesn’t act that way. That’s being a hypocrite.

            Paul says no one but gays understand gays. Paul, who admitted he wasn’t gay, says he understands gays and what makes them that way. That is being a hypocrite and lying.

            Not dishonest at all. His behavior speaks for itself.

          • Paul Hiett

            No Richard, I never said I was gay. Not once. Not ever.

            And you call me a liar?

          • Richard

            Read the comment again and show me where I said you were gay!

          • Paul Hiett

            “Paul, who admitted he was gay,”

            Maybe you should read the comment you wrote?

          • Richard

            I did. I had a typo in my comment, which I quickly corrected. Maybe you should refresh your browser.

          • MisterPine

            Paul, from what I understand, has a close relative who is lesbian which to me makes him eminently qualified to discuss this subject at length. He isn’t ruled by an ancient book that tells him this relative will go to hell, he will have researched the subject thoroughly but more importantly have had long and in-depth conversations with this relative to understand it from her perspective. You think we are just here to hate on Christians, it’s nothing like that at all. We are trying to promote understanding and tolerance.

          • Oboehner

            Let’s see if you have the ability to answer this simple question.

            Do you get sexually aroused at the sight of a horse?

          • Paul Hiett

            I’ll answer yours after you answer mine. It’s a simple question.

          • Oboehner

            To what relevance? Sexual attraction is a learned behavior just like Pavlov’s dog.

          • Paul Hiett

            Where, exactly, did you learn to become aroused at the sight of a woman?

          • Oboehner

            Through instinct, and living in a normal environment.

          • Paul Hiett

            Through instinct.

            “an innate, typically fixed pattern of behavior in animals in response to certain stimuli.”

            Ergo, you just admitted that your orientation is not a choice or a learned behavior.

          • Oboehner

            Natural law.

          • Paul Hiett

            Exactly, natural law. We this SAME EXACT BEHAVIOR in over 1500 species of animals. We can’t dismiss these repeatedly observed behaviors as anything other than “natural law”.

            Again, you continue to prove my point.

          • Oboehner

            Again you lump instinct with sexual attraction, animals act on instinct to procreate, there is no sexual attraction. Many species of animal engage is incest, hell some even eat their young, does that mean that behavior is acceptable in humans?

          • Paul Hiett

            Again, over 1500 species of animals (fyi, humans are animals) engage in homosexuality. Some members take on same-sex mates for life, some engage in same-sex activities for pleasure. You can’t simply dismiss this repeatedly observed behavior.

            You yourself admit that your sexual orientation is nothing more than instinct and “natural”. YOUR OWN WORDS!

          • Oboehner

            FYI humans are unique in their ability to reason and sexual attraction. Trying to legitimize sexual deviance by falsely claiming that non-human animals take on same-sex mates for life and engage in same-sex activities for pleasure is paramount to a lie.
            Using your logic, your comparison of the actions of animals to humans means you admit that you feel incest, cannibalism, and yes even pedophilia is normal acceptable human behavior.

          • Richard

            Maybe Paul will condone other base animal behaviors, they:
            – eat their young
            – rape others
            – eat their excrement
            – lick themselves clean
            – eat their vomit
            – kill their mates after sex
            – live in nests
            – live in rocks and eat bugs
            – kill anything when they are hungry
            – kill each other for territory
            – kill each other to win a mate

          • Oboehner

            He’ll probably just ignore that and try and further pigeon-hole his already lame arguments.

          • Richard

            I know. They’ll go to any lengths to justify sinful behavior.

          • Oboehner

            I see he omitted some of the points you posted, as well as dancing around the question of his deeming the actions of animals as being appropriate human behavior.

          • Paul Hiett

            I said “yep” to every single one of those “points”. We do share those same behaviors, do we not?

          • Oboehner

            Are those behaviors genetic? Are they appropriate human behaviors?

          • Paul Hiett

            Genetic? It appears to be so…as for appropriate, some of them I would say “no”, but we are conditioned by the society in which we live to think that way. I am sure many of us have had urges to kill…it’s a natural urge. We suppress them most of the time because we fear the consequences. Rape? Yes, obviously.

            Yet, many, MANY people do kill for the exact reasons Richard listed. We also rape, do we not?

          • Oboehner

            “I would say “no’, but we are conditioned by the society in which we live to think that way.”
            Ergo homosexuality.

          • Paul Hiett

            It’s still a natural trait. Is living in a home a negative trait, as Richard suggests? Humans have been living in shelters for as long as we’ve been around. What is wrong with that?

          • Oboehner

            Not buyin’ it. Sexual attraction is a learned behavior, I choose women as it is the default and instinctive.

          • Richard

            It’s sad how far they have to stoop to deny sin. I can see why God turns his back on unrepentant sinners.

          • Paul Hiett

            So simply pointing out that yes, we do share those behaviors with other animals is somehow condoning murder and rape? Really?

          • Oboehner

            Animal behavior is animal behavior, you can’t pick and choose.

          • Paul Hiett

            Huh? All I did was point out that the behaviors Richard listed are things we actually do share in common with other animals.

          • Richard

            It looks like Paul is okay with condoning all animal behavior. That doesn’t surprise me.

          • Paul Hiett

            Where did I say I condone it?

          • Oboehner

            Where did you say you don’t? You keep dancing around the question.

          • Paul Hiett

            FYI, while none of those things are related to sexual orientation, they are actually all still things that show up in humanity.

            Cannibalism? Yep.
            Rape? Yep.
            Lick themselves clean? Yep.
            Eat their vomit? Yep.
            Kill? Yep.
            Live in nests? Yep…we call them houses.
            Live in rocks? See above.
            Kill for food? Yep.
            Kill for territory? Yep.
            Kill for a mate? Yep.

            Thanks Richard, for proving how much we have in common with the other animals on this planet.

          • Paul Hiett

            Ok, enough with the claims that I’m a “liar”. I haven’t lied once. IF I have posted something that was incorrect, it would mean I was wrong. What you, and Richard as well, are doing, is just insulting me without actually refuting any facts, simply because you don’t like the facts I have presented. I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, “lying” about anything. That would completely undermine my point, to be frank.

            As for the animal world and homosexuality, it is VERY factual. I invite you to do a simple Google search. There is plenty of evidence to read that proves this. Unfortunately, this site stopped allowing links, but Google will provide you with enough proof.

          • Oboehner

            Animals do not feel sexual attraction – period. Any perceived homosexuality is merely animals acting on instinct to procreate and given their lack of reasoning, sometimes get it wrong.
            As far as your “facts” and truthfulness I stand by my statement and the wording thereof.
            like I said, by saying nothing to the contrary, you are saying you believe all of the activities engaged in by animals is perfectly acceptable for humans to engage in – one and all.

          • Paul Hiett

            Oboehner, they do. Many animals engage in coitus for pleasure. Dolphins/whales, primates, lions, etc. Where did you ever get this idea from?

            Tell you what, let’s prove I lied.

            http://www DOT yalescientific DOT org/2012/03/do-…

            Can you refute what this study from Yale says, and not with your opinion, but actual facts?

          • Oboehner

            Like I said, read slowly, animals do not have sexual attraction, even if by some stretch of the imagination there is some, Richard and I have posted some other facts which you keep dancing around and ignoring the simple question: Do you believe that the actions of animals is appropriate human behavior?

          • Paul Hiett

            Are you saying that animals don’t have “sexual attraction” as your opinion, or a fact you can cite a study for to support your claim?

          • Oboehner

            It’s painfully obvious it is on instinct, just look at the rut, my wife’s aunt sent us a postcard of a Whitetail buck fornicating with a German Shepherd – sexual attraction? Hardly.

          • James Von Borcke

            “…animals do not have sexual attraction…”

            Many animals seeking to mate put on displays for the purpose of (gasp!) attracting a mate to have sex with. From the puffing up of a birds feathers, to the fiddling of a cricket’s legs, all of it for the purpose of inducing ~attraction~.

            Seriously, go out into the middle of no where (a field, the desert, the woods) in the middle of the night and listen to all the sounds you hear around you. Every single on of those sounds you hear is a creature trying to get laid (as those out hunting don’t make noise until they strike).

            But don’t let 3rd grade knowledge interfere with your clinging to primitive ignorance to justify your personal bigotries.

          • Oboehner

            Driven by (gasp!) instinct, after the mating period is over, so is the attraction.
            You really need to get your mind out of the gutter in the woods at night.

          • James Von Borcke

            “…after the mating period is over…”

            Humans don’t have a mating period; most of us are good to go 24/7, regardless of orientation.

          • Oboehner

            Now your getting the picture, sexual attraction is for humans. Orientation is just a fluffy word covering for deviance.

          • James Von Borcke

            “Deviance” is subjective… As such, I measure deviance by manner of consent.

            Consequently, so does the law.

          • Oboehner

            Consent is irrelevant to genetics or instinct, incest contains consent, necrophilia – the partner really doesn’t protest either…

          • James Von Borcke

            Consent is the act of saying yes, not the failure to say no.

            If two adults are engaged in incest, and both consent, then that is their issue. If, however, one of the participants is a minor, then the statutory rape statutes apply.

            You really do spend a lot of time imagining, fearing and fantasizing about what people are doing with their genitals.

          • Oboehner

            Re-read my post.

          • James Von Borcke

            I did… And it was just as silly the second time around as it was the first.

          • Richard

            Paul would assume a dog humping a human’s leg means the dog is in love with the human. Maybe beast i ality is innate, too. Maybe humans should approve that since animals are okay with it.

          • Oboehner

            Perhaps the dog is sexually attracted to Air Jordans.

          • Richard

            Perhaps born that way.

          • Oboehner

            So incest IS best.

          • James Von Borcke

            “Sexual attraction is a learned behavior just like Pavlov’s dog.”

            Question, then… My friend, a gay male in his 70s, grew up watching Leave It To Beaver and Father Knows Best during the height of that squeaky-clean era known as the 50s, raised by straight parents, with straight siblings, straight grandparents, and straight uncles and aunts, in one of those twenty-church towns in upstate New York.

            How would you explain someone raised in this environment acquiring this ‘learned behavior’ you speak of?

          • Oboehner

            Any number of other factors you failed to mention.

          • James Von Borcke

            Such as? Come on, Oboe… Illuminate us with your superior knowledge. How did someone that was ~not~ exposed to anything homosexual “learn” to be attracted to men in Pavlovian fashion?

          • Oboehner

            Not having spent every minute of every day with your hypothetical, I could only speculate.

          • James Von Borcke

            In short, your hypothesis doesn’t explain the observed phenomenon and therefore fails.

          • Oboehner

            Not having spent every minute of every day, it is therefore unobserved, sorry.

          • James Von Borcke

            As I said, I have this ‘observed reality’ right here in my home… But I understand if you want to wiggle out of this; we can’t all be winners.

          • Oboehner

            Every minute of every day? BS

        • James Von Borcke

          “…you have to also give that to every other form of perversion.”

          I’m more worried about consent than I am on something as subjective as what is ‘perversion’ and what isn’t. So long as all parties may give legal consent, and it doesn’t harm anyone that isn’t involved, then so be it. Land of the free and all that loveliness.

          • Oboehner

            Consent has nothing to do with sexual attraction, absolutely nothing.

          • James Von Borcke

            Didn’t say it did; just said I was more worried about it.

            Granted, the Conservatives have always had a problem with consent. Y’know, that whole subservient wife thing, and being cool with slavery (where consent about ~anything~ is forbidden), and of course Catholic Priests and altar boys in the throws of puberty.

            I just can’t imagine why Conservatives are so obsessively imagining, fearing and fantasizing what two grown men are doing with their penises. Y’all spend far too much time thinking about gay sex.

          • Oboehner

            Now you’re speeding down asinine highway.
            Al Gore Sr. was a conservative? Robert Byrd?
            It’s really a shame that those grown men you whine about have to make their mental illness public, I really don’t want to hear it, see it, have it taught to my children in school – I don’t obsess over it nor do I condone any other form of perversion as you apparently do.

          • James Von Borcke

            You say they’re deviant; I say you have a problem with sexuality and find it icky and gross.

          • Oboehner

            So you believe people are born pedophiles?

          • James Von Borcke

            Honestly, yes. But pedophilia has the same issue as rape: Consent. Pedophiles and rapists, by their actions, are violating the rights of the individuals they force themselves on, and thereby their actions can, and should, be punished. By the same token, bestiality also falls into this realm because the animal cannot give informed consent as a human can.

          • Oboehner

            It’s learned behavior, plain and simple. Ex-gays are proof of this, it’s the same principle as a gambling addiction.

          • James Von Borcke

            You have yet to validate that it’s learned behavior… Ex-gays are little more than evidence that torture is effective as a brainwashing tool.

          • Oboehner

            Torture, LOL.

          • James Von Borcke

            Yep… This ‘therapy’ is nothing more than brain washing. Like some real Manchurian Candidate stuff. That’s why every credible psychiatric board has denounced it.

          • GibbyD

            Would you have problems too if similar therapy was used to try and help stop pedophiles, bestiality and Necrophilia ?

          • James Von Borcke

            Pedophiles deserve a bullet in the head; the other two can receive treatment from ethical professionals using scientifically sound methods.

          • GibbyD

            Homosexuals can change too , but they must be born again first in order to be able to.

          • James Von Borcke

            The question is whether or not homosexuals ~should~ change… The only reason you think so is because a bunch of goat herding desert nomads told you.

          • GibbyD

            same old stale, over used and parroted remarks with nothing to substantiate . The Word of God is God’s Word.

          • James Von Borcke

            Now you’re getting boring… I suppose this is supposed to… What? Arouse me to anger? Get me to lash out? Repeated behavior deserves repeated critique. It’s not my fault that you Right Wingers are repetitious. I’d actually welcome intellectual discourse, which you ~were~ providing until I cornered you on your self-contradictory faith and you went into panic mode.

          • Oboehner

            Sure, just like AA and drug rehab.

          • James Von Borcke

            Keep telling yourself that.

    • James Von Borcke

      “…which is being heavily promoted by those who are under direct control of demons and the Devil.”

      Yes, because everything you don’t like is the handiwork of a boogie man in red pajamas.

  • MattFCharlestonSC

    Conversion / Reparative Therapy is torturing youths. If you want to go through this as an adult, more power to you. GREAT for NJ for outlawing this damaging and useless practice on children.

  • UmustBKiddinMe

    “U.S. Supreme Court Declines to Hear Appeal Over N.J. Ban on Helping Homosexual Youth”

    It’s unfortunate that CNN feels the need to put forth misleading headlines. There is no ban in NJ on helping homosexual youth.

    “However, the regulation does not apply to counseling that seeks to affirm homosexual emotions or behaviors.”

    Since those have not been shown to be ineffective or harmful, unlike reparative therapy, there would be no basis for banning them.

    “but they can’t get a counselor who is ready, willing, and able to help them meet the objective of change which is something that they most desperately seek,” he lamented”

    “Lamented” – too funny. Parents who wish to put through child through efforts to attempt to change the child’s sexuality, are free to do so through clergy, or any other means except a state-licensed therapist. Since most therapy is based on “pray away the gay”, clergy is by far the best place for that.

  • Richard

    So many uninformed opinions on the matter. Why not consult an ex gay. They’ve been through it.

    Or how about some professionals:

    Dr. Martin Duberman, founder of the Center for Lesbian and Gay Studies, said “no good scientific work establishes that people are born gay or straight.”

    Anthropologist Dr. Esther Newton (University of Michigan) called one study linking sexual orientation to biological traits ludicrous: “Any anthropologist who has looked cross-culturally (knows) it’s impossible that that’s true, because sexuality is structured in such different ways in different cultures.”

    Dr. Howard Fradkin, homosexual psychologist who treats adult victims of childhood molestation, stated on The Oprah Show that childhood molestation can result in “sexual orientation confusion.”

    In a post on the website Social (In)Queery, Jane Ward, who admits to being voluntarily homosexual, disputes the entire pseudo-intellectual edifice upon which Cassidy has built her teetering bill:

    But the fact that the “born this way” hypothesis has resulted in greater political returns for gay and lesbian people doesn’t have anything to do with whether it is true. Maybe, as gay people, we want to get together and pretend it is true because it is politically strategic….But still, it wouldn’t make the idea true.

    • MisterPine

      Richard, you don’t know enough about your subject to even be discussing it. The dictionary definition of homosexuality states plainly that it is an attraction, and therefore a state of being, and you continue to insist that it is an action. It is NOT. You can be homosexual and celibate.

      • Paul Hiett

        Richard can’t distinguish between “attraction” and “behavior”, which is why he doesn’t understand why he loses this debate every time.

      • Richard

        What motivates attraction? Not genes. Not biological factors. But behavior.

        If you actually took time to study child sexual development, you wouldn’t be posted such nonsense. Study could fix that for you.

        • MisterPine

          Richard, your battle isn’t with me, it’s with Merriam-Webster. Consider the enormity of the situation here. You are saying the DICTIONARY is wrong, and you are right.

          • Richard

            Look up the definition of attraction.

            Notice, you won’t find the words ‘born that way.’

          • MisterPine

            Note you also see nothing about actions.

          • MisterPine

            Yeah?

            “the action or power of evoking interest, pleasure, or liking for someone or something”

            The action mentioned is the action of evoking. Which is not really an action.

            I never claimed “born that way” either. Maybe they were born that way, maybe the attraction formed in early life. Either way it wasn’t chosen.

        • MisterPine

          Please, Richard, don’t embarrass yourself further. You don’t even have your definition of homosexuality clear. Nothing in the definition denotes taking any kind of action. It is strictly about attraction.

  • Richard

    Paul says there aren’t any ex-gays:

    Books written by ex-gay authors:

    – Beyond Gay, by David Morrison

    – Born That Way? By Erin Eldridge

    – Closing the Closet: Testimonies of Deliverance from Homosexuality, Talbert Swan

    – Free Indeed, by Barbara Swallow

    – Growth Into Manhood: Resuming the Journey, by Alan Medinger

    – Healing Homosexuality: Case Studies of Reparative Therapy, by Joseph Nicolosi

    – Out of Egypt: Leaving Lesbianism Behind, by Jeanette Howard

    – A Place in the Kingdom, by Garrick and Ginger Hyde

    – Portraits of Freedom: 14 People Who Came Out of Homosexuality, by Bob Davies

    – Voices of Hope, 22 Personal Essays, Compiled by Ty Mansfield

    – You Don’t Have to be Gay, by Jeff Konrad

    • Paul Hiett

      Let’s see what Alan Chambers, the ex-President of the group “Exodus”, formed by Alan Medinger, whom you quote above, says:

      The president of the now-defunct “ex-gay” organization, Exodus International, has been married to a woman for nearly 16 years. But he rejects labeling himself straight, bisexual, gay, or even “ex-gay,” noting that “while my life has changed dramatically, my same-sex attraction hasn’t.”

      ROFL…game, set, match.

      • Richard

        That’s one person. You said there weren’t any ex-gays.

        ex-gaytruth dot com/ex-gay-testimonies/

        www dot lifesitenews dot com/news/ex-gay-homosexuality-is-just-another-human-brokenness

        www dot christianpost dot com/news/testimony-of-ex-gay-member-of-texas-megachurch-thank-you-for-loving-me-more-than-she-ever-could-126694/

        • Paul Hiett

          Can’t even acknowledge that the “same-sex attraction hasn’t” gone away, can you?

      • The Last Trump

        ONE GUY!
        GAME,SET,MATCH! (!?)
        Yep. THAT settles it!
        Hee, hee! What a kook!

        • MisterPine

          Oh, hee hee, speaking of kooks…

          www dot fstdt dot com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=108365

  • Richard

    Paul says he believes in live and let live. Yet he comes here day after day judging others and hoping to change opinions.

    Paul says only gays understand gays. Yet he says he knows.

    Then, he continues to repeat his behaviors over and over again. Not only is that hypocritical, but deliberately lying.

    Paul serves his father, satan.

    “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” John 8:44

    • Paul Hiett

      My lesbian daughter says she has no sexual attraction to men. My married gay friends say they have no attraction to women.

      Whom should I believe? Them, or you, who cannot possibly understand what it feels like to be gay, since you say you are straight?

      • MisterPine

        Richard says Satan is your father. How come you never told us?

        • James Von Borcke

          Wait, I have a brother?

    • MM

      Wow Richard, quoting scripture really brings home your point (??!!) What proof do you have John wasn’t referring to you in that scripture?

  • Bobby Mae

    Doesn’t this article pretty much prove that being gay isn’t a choice? Obviously no kid is going to consciously CHOOSE to be attracted to the same sex.

    • Paul Hiett

      The simplest question you can ask the anti-gay crowd is if they have any sexual arousal at the sight of the same gender.

      They’ll always immediately claim “NO!”. They just proved that orientation is not a choice.

    • Richard

      No. It just means they don’t realize it’s a choice and what motivates that choice.

      People choose all kinds of behaviors without realizing they are choices or why they have those motivations. But that just means they don’t understand, not that they aren’t choices.

      • Bobby Mae

        So you think being attracted to the same sex is a choice? Really? You’re aware that even in the “conversion therapies” they disclaim that the attraction may never go away right?

        • Richard

          > So you think being attracted to the same sex is a choice? Really?

          Yes. For more information, study sexual development.

          > You’re aware that even in the “conversion therapies” they disclaim that the attraction may never go away right?

          This isn’t unlike addictions. Even though a person can stop the addiction, it doesn’t mean the desire for the substance may not go away.

          Are you saying that addicts are born that way? Can’t change?

          Many smokers who have stopped still have cravings. Does that mean they were born to smoke? Can stop?

          How about people who desire food? To have sex with children?

          • Paul Hiett

            The fact that you equate sexual orientation with cigarettes that are infused with over 4000 different chemicals designed to caused addition is the most laughable thing that anyone on here has ever said.

            And that’s saying something.

          • Bobby Mae

            He’s one of those “look it up! Studies prove it” type. Second time asking for a link to a study. *crickets*

          • Richard

            “Scientific research has refuted many common myths and offers a new view of women’s sexual orientations. A new view emphasizes several well- documented findings, which includes the following:

            – Women’s sexual orientation is potentially fluid, is shaped by life experiences, and can change over the life span.

            – intimate relationships are often more central to women’s sexual orientation than sexual behavior.

            – A lesbian sexual orientation does not result from biological abnormalities. Biological influences on sexual orientation are limited and indirect.

            – Women’s sexual orientation is shaped by such social and cultural factors as women’s education, social status and power, economic opportunities, and attitudes about women’s roles.

            – There is no single developmental pathway leading to a heterosexual, bisexual, or lesbian outcome.”

            “Scholars from many disciplines have noted that women’s sexuality tends to be fluid, malleable, shaped by life experiences, and capable of change over time. female sexual development is a potentially continuous, lifelong process in which multiple changes in sexual orientation are possible.” – by Linda D. Garnets and Letitia Anne Peplau, A New Look at Women’s Sexuality & Sexual Orientation

          • Bobby Mae

            And note that not once in that article did they say consciously choose. But I’m going to work now and don’t have time to argue with homophobic trolls. Buhbye.

          • Richard

            Most people don’t realize it’s a choice, even though it is…just as you demonstrated by your previous answers that you didn’t know why you liked a certain flavor or color. But that doesn’t mean professional therapists don’t know. They help people make these changes every day.

          • Bobby Mae

            Umm, even if you go to a therapist to figure out the reason you like something doesn’t mean you consciously chose to like it. Do you understand the word consciously? I’ve used it since my first posts and you either don’t understand the meaning or you’re CONSCIOUSLY choosing to ignore it.

          • James Von Borcke

            “Most people don’t realize it’s a choice, even though it is..”

            So when did you chose to be straight?

          • Bobby Mae

            You need to admit that human sexuality is very complex and that no one wakes up and consciously decides “I’ll think I’ll like women today. And men tomorrow.” You choose to.act on your desires obviously, and you can deny them, which I think you’re equating with choosing not to be gay. But that doesn’t mean you’re necessarily gonna become attracted to the other sex.

          • Richard

            > You need to admit that human sexuality is very complex

            Only to those who don’t understand it, such as you.

            I noticed you didn’t answer my questions:

            What do you think makes you like a certain flavor? Color? Born that way and can’t change?

          • Bobby Mae

            I don’t know what causes me to like a certain flavor. I don’t choose to like it tho. I either do or I don’t. But equating a system as complex as sexual orientation with ice cream is just dumb. Were you ever attracted to the same sex?

          • Paul Hiett

            And here is where Richard goes into his song and dance…he will never actually answer that question, btw.

          • Bobby Mae

            Ah, is he the type that posts this stuff all day every day on this site?

          • Paul Hiett

            I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve asked him that same question. He refuses and dances around it. I think he actually realizes that his answer puts him in a rock and a hard place, as it proves that orientation is not a choice, but if he refuses to answer it, then he can continue his routine.

          • Richard

            I post facts and statistics, as you can see.

          • Paul Hiett

            *spits coffee*

          • Bobby Mae

            Lol

          • Richard

            > I don’t know what causes me to like a certain flavor. I don’t choose to like it tho.

            That’s correct. YOU don’t know what causes your preferences. But that doesn’t mean no one knows. Therapists help their clients understand desires and preferences all the time. It’s not a mystery, but only to those who don’t have any behavioral training.

            > But equating a system as complex as sexual orientation with ice cream is just dumb.

            Dumb to you…because you don’t understand behavior. But that doesn’t mean no one else does.

            Almost all children experiment sexually as they grow up. During those experiments they establish their preferences….which then become automatic behavior.

            Most boys experiment with boys. Most girls with girls. This is common for sexual development. But that doesn’t mean they are gay…just discovering.

          • Bobby Mae

            >>That’s correct. YOU don’t know what causes your preferences. But that doesn’t mean no one knows. >>

            Thank you for proving my original point that people CONSCIOUSLY choose to be attracted to a certain sex.

            And most boys experiment with boys? Lol sorry, I disagree. But it’s giving me more insight on YOU.

          • Bobby Mae

            Please show me studies right now in sexual development that say people consciously choose to like the same sex.

          • Richard

            If you actually took some time and researched child sexual development, you’d have your question answered.

            What do you think makes you like a certain flavor? Color? Born that way and can’t change?

          • Bobby Mae

            Yep, I knew you wouldnt be able to show me any evidence. 🙂

          • Richard

            I told you how you could find it. But since you don’t want to really know, you won’t look for it. Not surprising. Anything to condone sin. But denying the truth doesn’t negate it. And sin always carries a price.

          • Bobby Mae

            Haha, the burden of proof is on you, not me. Give me a link to the study that says people consciously choose to be attracted to the same sex.

          • Richard

            > Haha, the burden of proof is on you, not me.

            Burden of proof? Seriously! This is called educate yourself. Big difference.

            What do you think makes you like a certain flavor? Color? Born that way and can’t change?

          • Bobby Mae

            Yes, sir. No one consciously chooses their sexual orientation. You swoop in with the sexual development studies prove it argument, I ask you for a link twice now, and you can’t do so. 🙂 and now you’re equating sexual development, your original argument, with liking colors. You are funny I’ll give you that!

          • James Von Borcke

            “And sin always carries a price.”

            So does judging the sins of others.

          • LeftCoast

            Have you looked into prison homosexuality or prison sexuality as a whole?

          • Paul Hiett

            Most of that is domination, political power (prison style), and lack of options.

          • LeftCoast

            are you sure? I work at a prison and I hear different. You might want to go visit your family members and get more info.

          • Paul Hiett

            Really? I simply respond to your post and you choose to insult me?

            Why? What is wrong with you?

          • LeftCoast

            It was not intended to be an insult but a joke.

          • Bobby Mae

            I experience same sex attraction myself and get very frustrated when people tell me I choose this attraction when I did not.

          • Paul Hiett

            I think, and mind you this is my own opinion, that those in the anti-gay crowd simply cannot (or refuse) to believe that anyone could feel differently than the way they feel, and therefore orientation is a choice.

          • Bobby Mae

            I think you’re right.

          • James Von Borcke

            Well, given that Jewish mythology is wrong on physics, cosmology, astronomy, geology, math, linguistics, history, slavery, gender equality, racial equality and nearly every facet of morality, “At least we’re better than the gays” is pretty much all they have left.

          • LeftCoast

            I apologize if this comment was too personal and close to home. I was trying to show that there are situations that it is a choice and it’s natural.

          • Paul Hiett

            The behavior is a choice…to engage in the physical act. However, what you are attracted to is not a choice.

          • Bobby Mae

            Tell that to Richard

          • MisterPine

            I tried that with Richard once. He will often cite “professional therapists” generally but with no specific names of those therapists.

          • MisterPine

            Are you also saying that straight married couples are addicted to one another sexually? That they’re not actually in love?

          • Ambulance Chaser

            So it’s the kind of choice you don’t choose? Is that accurate?

          • Nofun

            What science says sexual orientation is a choice.
            Hint: There is none.

      • Nofun

        So you could change to be gay just for the week end?

  • Richard

    For all of those who believe gays are born or ‘hardwired’ that way:

    Overall, 55 (2.15%) participants reported a different sexual orientation identity at Wave 2 compared to Wave 1. Among women, 1.36% with a heterosexual identity changed, 63.63% with a homosexual identity changed, and 64.71% with a bisexual identity changed. Among men, 0.78% with a heterosexual identity changed, 9.52% with a homosexual identity changed, and 47.06% with a bisexual identity changed. – Steven E. Mock • Richard P. Eibach, Stability and Change in Sexual Orientation Identity Over a 10-Year Period in Adulthood

    • Paul Hiett

      http://www DOT livescience DOT com/50058-being-gay-not-a-choice.html

      “Years of research suggest that people can’t change their sexual orientation because they want to, and that trying can cause mental anguish. What’s more, some studies suggest that being gay may have a genetic or biological basis. [5 Myths About Gay People Debunked]”

  • MM

    $10 bucks says The Last Trump is really worried about his own sexuality, maybe he missed his own fraudulent counseling this week. Hang on dude (dudette?) your gender doesn’t rub off that easily.

    • Richard

      Hardly. Your comments are just more gay drivel.

      • MisterPine

        They are no such thing. Trump thinks homosexuality is trying to “impregnate a turd” (his exact words). The Christians in this discussion so far show only that their knowledge relating to homosexuality is practically nil.

        • Peter Leh

          seems that way

      • Bobby Mae

        Kinda like how your comments are all “scientific facts” that you can’t back up?

    • James Von Borcke

      Sucker’s bet…

  • Crono478

    Romans 1:21-27

    21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

    24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

    26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

    • Paul Hiett

      We all know what the Bible says. The Bible is the claim, not the proof.

      • Crono478

        Yeah, your comment exemplify these verses above perfectly.

        • Paul Hiett

          You post those things as though you think it settles a debate. It doesn’t. In fact, it does nothing at all in regards to the ongoing discussion, except reiterate what we all know. Yes, the Bible says homosexuals are wrong, we get it.

          • Crono478

            I knew you would come up with answers like above.

            “Yes, the Bible says homosexuals are wrong, we get it.”

            There is more to it just than this statement you made. Read verses 21 to 23 first. After that, you can read why God give them up to:

            1) Uncleanness
            2) Dishonor their bodies among themselves
            3) Exchange the truth of God for the lie
            4) Worshiped and served creature rather than the Creator

            (Here’s an example for 4th item –

            “Our ancestors worshipped the sun. They were far from foolish. It makes good sense to revere the sun and stars because we are their children. The silicon in the rocks, the oxygen in the air, the carbon in our DNA, the iron in our skyscrapers, the silver in our jewelry—were all made in stars, billions of years ago. Our planet, our society, and we ourselves are stardust.”

            That is the statement actually made by Neil deGrasse Tyson in His show, “Cosmos: A Spacetime Odyssey”)

            Now, we get to verse 26-27, Lord gave them up to vile passions. Homosexuality are described after that as well. We can see the progression from verse 21 to 27.

          • MisterPine

            You are told that everyone already knows what the Bible says about this, and that it’s not proof, and your response is to post….MORE bible quotes?

          • Crono478

            I am sorry that you think I have posted more bible quotes. I only quoted Romans 1:21-27. I am also sorry that you have missed my point that I made to Paul Hiett.

          • MisterPine

            The thing is, if we don’t regard the Bible as authoritative regarding homosexuality, going back to re-examine its words isn’t going to suddenly make us take the Bible more seriously.

          • Crono478

            There you go, your latest comment is a good example of what these verses are really talking about.

          • Paul Hiett

            I understand what the verses say. I know very well what Christianity, and other religions, feel/believe about homosexuality.

            My point is that just because your religion says it, it should not mean you, or anyone else, should have the right to use that belief to tell others how to live.

          • Crono478

            You have missed whole point as well. Both you and MisterPine rejected God’s words. That is why He gave both of you up to your desires and for you to live in sin.

            One thing that will be a constant reminder is your conscience, letting you know right and wrong.

          • Paul Hiett

            See, that’s the part you struggle with dearly. Most Christians can’t fathom that other people don’t believe what they believe. We don’t just reject your deities words, we reject them all as nothing more than fantasy and myth. Here in the US, we should have the right to live exactly as you do without the interference of your religious opinions. My rejection of religion should not mean I have to give up any of my rights and privileges as a US citizen, just as you would not tolerate that yourself.

          • Crono478

            I can fathom that, I know you don’t believe in it. What I can’t fathom how you can ignore your conscience telling you that you have broke His law. It vexes my soul knowing that.

          • James Von Borcke

            “What I can’t fathom how you can ignore your conscience telling you that you have broke His law.”

            And how do you know what Paul’s conscious is telling him? Did you use tarot cards? Or goat entrails? A crystal ball, perhaps? Tell us, please, how you get this wondrous magical insight into the mind of another?

          • Crono478

            And how do you know what Paul’s conscious is telling him?

            The answer is in Romans 2:14-15

            14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)

            That is not just only for Paul. That applies to all of us. That should answer your last question as well. Also, please visit www DOT needGod DOT com and let me know what you think of it.

          • James Von Borcke

            I don’t subscribe to the words of Saul; he was a false preacher. But you can embrace his lies if you wish; that’s your right.

          • Crono478

            What makes you believe that he is a false preacher? Besides that, are you saying that you do believe in God?

          • James Von Borcke

            Let’s take a look at the historical Saul… Before his conversion, he hated Christianity. He hated everything about it. But then, suddenly, he has an ‘experience’ (which could have been divine revelation, but it could just have easily have been a seizure or even just a really bad headache). After that experience, he now proclaims himself a believer. But he also proclaims that Jesus gave him all these ‘updates’ that, just by coincidence, happened to bring Christianity more into line with what Saul thought it should be like. The over-all effect Paul would have is that his revisions would take Christianity out of the hands of the believers (who would study, discuss and debate Christ’s teachings) and put it into the hands of the priests (who, as a result of the believers taking account of their own spiritual quest, were primarily serving as librarians and candle makers).

            The result of placing Christianity into the hands of the priests was a political hierarchy which eventually led to the formation of the Holy Roman Empire. Once that happened, any knowledge which was determined to be heretical was destroyed and those who possessed said knowledge were killed (Google “Hypatia of Alexandria”). This, in turn, led us straight into the Dark Ages and the long hard climb out of ignorance.

            Do you really believe that was what Jesus intended?

            As for my belief, my Christianity is based solely on the Gospels themselves, which is the only place one may find Christ’s teachings. I pay no mind to the Old Testament (aside from being a fascinating collection of Jewish mythology, though only a few parts truly rival Homer’s Illiad or the Old English poem of Beowulf), and I pay no mind to the works of Saul or St John (all of which amounts to nothing more than political-minded revisionism that eventually led into a historic disaster which lasted for over a thousand years and the negative effects of which are still being dealt with to this day).

          • Crono478

            I am sorry that I did not reply back to you until now.

            “As for my belief, my Christianity is based solely on the Gospels themselves, which is the only place one may find Christ’s teachings. I pay no mind to the Old Testament (aside from being a fascinating collection of Jewish mythology…”

            Here are at least four different places in Bible that Old Testament is clearly to be God’s word.

            Matthew 5:17-19

            17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

            Luke 24:25-27

            25 Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

            Luke 24:44-45

            44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

            John 5:46-47

            46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

            Also, Jesus is God himself. He is Word, Creator and Savior of whole world. The question is, if you believe that everything in Old Testament is Jewish mythology then why would Jesus treat it as God’s word and the Truth? You say that you believe in Gospel only, will you believe what Jesus said about Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms that concerns Him?

          • James Von Borcke

            “Here are at least four different places in Bible that Old Testament is clearly to be God’s word.”

            No, there are at least four different places in the Bible that the Old Testament ~claims~ to be God’s word.

            Every religion claims to be ultimate truth; not a single one (including my own) has proven it.

          • Crono478

            Do you believe that you are a good person who will make to Heaven?

          • James Von Borcke

            I can’t say for certain that Heaven exists, but I believe I’m a good person.

            I love myself, which makes it easier to love my neighbor, as Jesus taught. I also try my best to do unto others as I’d have done to me, also as Jesus taught. I seek to make amends when I do something wrong; and I can forgive those who seek to make amends for what they’ve done to me (I do have a hard time forgiving those who are ~not~ sorry, but I do my best to let it go and allow karma to handle it). And I know that, if there is to be a judgment between paradise and damnation, then it is not my place to make such judgment upon others, as only the Lord would have such authority.

            As these are all in line with the teachings of Jesus, then I’d say that ~if~ there is an afterlife, my odds aren’t that bad. And if there isn’t an afterlife, then I’ll be remembered for not being a douche. Either outcome is fine by me.

          • Crono478

            Problem is, Jesus said that there is no one that is good except God. That means we are not good. Jesus commands us to repent or we will perish (meaning going to Hell). Can I ask you few questions?

            1) Have you ever lied before in your life?
            2) Have you ever stole anything?
            3) Have you ever looked at any woman with lust?
            4) Have you ever used God’s name as curse?

          • James Von Borcke

            “Problem is, Jesus said that there is no one that is good except God.”

            Ah, yes… I see. No, I wouldn’t say I’m ~perfectly~ good. But do I approach decisions with honesty and kindness? Yes I do. Do I treat people fairly and equally? Yes I do.

            So am I the ‘goodness’ of God? No. But do I try to reach decisions based on a positive ethical position? Most certainly. And by all standards other than God, that makes me good.

            Your approach to the question, however, suggests a measure of self loathing. It says, “I’m not God, therefore I suck.” That sort of outlook can only be corrosive in the long term.

          • Crono478

            “And by all standards other than God, that makes me good.”

            You haven’t answered four questions I asked you. For each question, if you have done that at least once, then it makes you a thief, liar, adulterer, and blasphemer. Can you tell God that you are a good person when you are guilty of breaking His Law? He is holy and righteous. He is not a corrupt judge who will ignore this.

            Jesus calls us to repent or we will perish. That means if you die now without repentence, the punishment is to be sent to Hell. Does that concern you?

            If it does concern you, then there is good news for you. Jesus Christ paid your penalty for breaking His Law by dying on the Cross and is resurrected three days later. You need to tell God that you are sorry for breaking His Laws and ask Him to forgive you. After that, believe in Jesus Christ as your Savior alone.

          • James Von Borcke

            “You haven’t answered four questions I asked you”

            Because there’s no need to answer them. You are presenting a philosophy that presumes that not being perfect is synonymous with being horrible, wicked and evil. So rather than jump through the hoops you wish for me to jump through, I just got to the root of the matter.

            “Does that concern you?”

            No, it doesn’t. You, however, are clearly influenced by such fears.

            I’ve already made my peace with God, regardless of your judgment of me.

            But since you did judge me, I would suggest you reread Matthew 6 while contemplating repentance.

          • Crono478

            Bible says that we have to repent or we will perish. That is why I asked you four questions to show you that you are sinner before God. Jesus said in Matthew 10:28

            “28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

            That is what we should fear. In Proverbs 9:10 , The fear of Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

            Jesus said that we can make righteous judgment based on God’s words. What we can’t do is to be hypocrites Jesus tells us to go out and preach His Words and make disciplines in His Name.

          • James Von Borcke

            “Bible says that we have to repent or we will perish.”

            So what Jesus taught about the Good Samaritan was a lie?

            “That is what we should fear.”

            Having made peace with God, I fear nothing.

            “Jesus said that we can make righteous judgment based on God’s words.”

            “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” ~Matthew 7:1-2

            Are you sure you’re up for this? I’m really starting to feel like I’m up against a novice.

          • Crono478

            You only quoted two verses. You need to quote whole paragraph.

            Matthew 7:1-5

            7 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
            —-

            This is frequently misused by professing Christians and non-Christians when they get judged. These verses are saying that I would be hypocrite if I judge you for same thing I would do! I haven’t done that.

            In fact Jesus said to people in John 7:24

            John 7:24

            24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

            Christians are allowed to judge. There is both right and wrong ways to judge people. Jesus said that we should judge with righteous judgment. Righteousness come from God. His words are what used to judge us.

            You are one who reject Old Testament as Jewish mythology. Old Testament (The Law, Psalms, and Prophets) spoke a lot about Jesus.

          • James Von Borcke

            “These verses are saying that I would be hypocrite if I judge you for same thing I would do”

            Yes. And as ~you~ pointed out, we are all sinners. So you are judging people for sinning when ~you~ are a sinner.

            That makes you a hypocrite.

            “In fact Jesus said to people in John 7:24”

            Yes, and are you ‘righteous’ enough to sit in ‘righteous judgment’? Are you so without sin that the first stone is yours to toss?

            “Christians are allowed to judge.”

            Well, apparently you ~do~ believe yourself to be so righteous and sinless… However, being a Christian, I can say that is most definitely not true. That is, we can judge a person for their secular crimes, and dispense secular punishments, but for ~sin~ there is but one Judge. And it is vanity to presume yourself righteous enough to sit upon His Throne in judgment of others.

            My Bible only contains the Gospels; Christ’s teachings are found in no other book.

          • Crono478

            No because I have confessed to God that I broke all of his Law 4 years ago. Knowing that the punishment is everlasting punishment in Hell, I believe that Jesus paid my penalty by dying on the Cross and trusted in Him as My Savior alone. The name of Jesus means “Deliverer”.

            That does not make me a hypocrite. That is why I can tell you about His Law and ask you if you know that you broke them. I care and don’t want to see anyone perish without repentance. Jesus is the only way to Heaven and he commands us to repent or we will perish.

          • James Von Borcke

            “No because I have confessed to God that I broke all of his Law 4 years ago.”

            And haven’t broken it since? Not a single one? Not even as Thought Crime?

            “That does not make me a hypocrite.”

            So you ~are~ claiming to be righteous and sinless?

            “Jesus is the only way to Heaven…”

            So he lied when he taught about the Good Samaritan?

          • Crono478

            The Parable of the Good Samaritan – Luke 10:25-37

            25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”

            26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”

            27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’[a] and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”[b]

            28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”

            29 But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

            30 Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34 So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 On the next day, when he departed,[c] he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ 36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?”

            37 And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.”

            Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”

            ——

            I just included all of these verses above. Notice verse 26 and 27

            26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”

            27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’[a] and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”[b]

            Jesus actually asked the lawyer about the Law: Where do you think that comes from? Yes, in Old Testament. Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:8 to be exact. That allows Jesus to speak the Good Samaritan parable. The lawyer understood that it was the Samaritan who showed the mercy to the wounded man on the road. The lawyer would not even say the word, Samaritan, at all because it shows how much Jew people hated them. These people is a mix of Gentile and Jewish group. It is almost like families that is a mix of white and black people which were widely and hated in the south in the U.S. a half century ago.

            The lawyer also found himself to be guilty before this Law that he just gave an answer Jesus what it is.

            The lawyer found himself to be guilty based on questions he asked because he knows that he broke His law. Jesus told him to do the same thing that the Samaritan person did and he will inherit the eternal life. When he does, that would indicate that he have came to repentance and would receive eternal life.

            That remains true to the command that Jesus gave to us in Mark 4:17

            Matthew 4:17

            17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

            —–

            No, I am sinner who repented of my sins and accepted Jesus as my Savior. I received His righteousness, not of myself.

          • James Von Borcke

            Well, your copy/paste wasn’t necessary… I do have a Bible, and even if I didn’t (or others don’t), BibleGateway is just a browser window away…

            Now, let’s take a look at the tale ~itself~…

            First, Jesus describes a man going to Jericho. What sort of man? A Jew? A Roman? A Greek? Was he straight or gay? Jesus does not say. It’s just any old person, an ‘every-man’.

            Now, the man is set upon by ruffians and left for dead, and Jesus describes three other travelers that come upon him: A Priest, a Levite and a Samaritan.

            Now, what kind of priest? Doesn’t say. Jew, Roman, Greek, Egyptian, Syrian..? Likely a Jewish priest, being on the road to Jericho, but not necessarily. So a priest. And this priest shows the dying man no mercy.

            Next, the Levite is a Jew and therefore one of God’s ‘chosen people’ according to their mythology. But the Levite, like the priest, shows the dying man no mercy.

            Then along comes the Samaritan. Now, as you said, the Jews were convinced that the Samaritans were heretics (the same way Christians think Atheists are heretics). So by default, as you also pointed out, those Jesus would be speaking to would have distrust of any Samaritan. But the Samaritan does show the dying man mercy.

            Now, were the priest and Levite ‘bad neighbors’ simply for being a priest or a Levite? No, they were bad neighbors because they didn’t show mercy to a man dying on the road. Their race nor their faith amounted for anything. Where as, the Samaritan ~was~ a good neighbor ~even though his faith was considered a heresy~, and he showed mercy to an ‘every-man’ on the side of the road, thus would have eternal life.

            That said, your pretext that one must ‘repent or suffer’ is in direct conflict with this foundational principle of Christ’s ministry.

            (As an aside, I can’t help but to draw parallels to Jesus using a Samaritan as his example to the intentional efforts to include diversity in positive roles on television and in movies… Of course, when they do it, it’s called Liberal Diversity Policing. But whatever.)

            “No, I am sinner who repented of my sins and accepted Jesus as my Savior.”

            Doesn’t answer the question; have you remained sinless since that time? Are you sinless now? And are you sure there isn’t a beam in your eye?

            “I received His righteousness, not of myself.”

            Can you show me this righteousness? Validate that you have been elevated to special status? That you remain so sinless that the first stone is yours to throw? I mean, you keep ~implying~ that you are, but you refuse to outright say so.

          • Crono478

            “That said, your pretext that one must ‘repent or suffer’ is in direct conflict with this foundational principle of Christ’s ministry.”

            Look at what the lawyer asked Jesus in Luke 10:25. That indicates Heaven. If there is Heaven then there has to be Hell because Lord is perfect Judge. He cannot allow lawless deed to go punished. He is not a corrupt judge who can be bribed. That is why Jesus told him to do what Samaritan person did, that is to show mercy to the man who were wounded on the road.

            “Doesn’t answer the question; have you remained sinless since that time? Are you sinless now? And are you sure there isn’t a beam in your eye?”

            I didn’t say I will never sin. Of course, I have sinned daily. Jesus died for our past, present and future sins.

            “Can you show me this righteousness?”

            John 15:1-2, Mark 4:20, Romans 3:22

            “Validate that you have been elevated to special status? That you remain so sinless that the first stone is yours to throw? I mean, you keep ~implying~ that you are, but you refuse to outright say so.”

            Again, I didn’t say I am elevated above you. I am sinner just like you. What I keep on showing you is Lord’s law that all of us break. All of us are not righteous on this planet because of this. This is exactly why Jesus died on the cross for us.

            My question is, why did Jesus die on the cross for us? What’s the whole point of this? Can you answer that for me?

          • James Von Borcke

            “That is why Jesus told him to do what Samaritan person did, that is to show mercy to the man who were wounded on the road.”

            He also told him that a ~heretic~ would gain eternal life for doing good works. Meanwhile, the other two (presumably faithful) had failed to do such, and so did not gain eternal life.

            Now, if I were to say, ‘It doesn’t matter what a person believes so much as it matters what ~actions~ that belief encourages in the believer,” would you not see how that lines up ~perfectly~ with the Good Samaritan? That is, if Jesus (a Jew) can see a Samaritan as a good neighbor because of his actions, then why can’t homosexuals be regarded as good neighbors based on their actions in like manner? After all, is it not the same sectarian authority that pronounced that homosexuals are an abomination which had deemed that Samaritans are heretics?

            “I didn’t say I will never sin. Of course, I have sinned daily.”

            Then you are a hypocrite for judging other people for their sins.

            “John 15:1-2, Mark 4:20, Romans 3:22”

            Again, I know the Bible… I want proof that ~you~ have this righteousness. I can list ~thousands~ of Christians that claimed to be righteous but then later got caught doing something naughty (if not outright criminal), so telling me that you’re righteous doesn’t do anything except illustrate that you think you’re special.

            Which I strongly doubt.

            “Again, I didn’t say I am elevated above you.”

            And yet you’ve received the righteousness to judge others in a manner that is reserved for God and God alone?

            “What I keep on showing you is Lord’s law that all of us break.”

            And what I keep on showing you is that this Jewish law leads you to act in a manner contrary to what Jesus taught in his ministry.

            “My question is, why did Jesus die on the cross for us? What’s the whole point of this? Can you answer that for me?”

            He didn’t. He was murdered because the Jewish priesthood feared for their power as Jesus was convincing people to re-evaluate and ~debate~ Jewish law and the dispensation of punishments, and were facilitated by a Roman governor who yielded to terrorist threats (according to the mythos, at least).

          • Crono478

            Ok, I am on mobile device. I am going to keep my response short. We receive righteousness when we repent of our sins and believe in Jesus as our Savior.

            That is what Bible says. You call me a hypocrite when I obviously stated the biblical truth that you are a liar, thief, adulterer and blasphemer. You aren’t only one. I did the same, I broke all 10 commandments. We deserve to be punished for that. Bible says that I am a wretched sinner. I am showing you how to receive salvation, which is through Jesus.

            Jesus never sinned at all and He is God and Man. He is righteous. He bore all of our sins on the Cross so we can be saved through Him. That is how we receive righteous from Him because we receive sin nature all way from Adam. That is why we can’t go to Heaven unless we are born again.

          • James Von Borcke

            “We receive righteousness when we repent of our sins and believe in Jesus as our Savior.”

            That’s the belief, though you’ve yet to show me that this is true.

            “You call me a hypocrite when I obviously stated the biblical truth that you are a liar, thief, adulterer and blasphemer.”

            No, you ~asked me~ if I was. I never answered because I recognized where you were going with that. Now you are ~accusing~ me of being these things. Your ‘truth’ is little more than convincing yourself that you’re great and I’m filth.

            As for being a hypocrite, it’s because you admit that you sin yet feel empowered to judge others for their sins. If you cannot claim the first stone, then you aren’t as righteous as you think regardless of where you imagine yourself gaining this righteousness from.

            “We deserve to be punished for that.”

            Again, self-loathing is the foundation of ~your~ faith. Mine, not so much.

            “He bore all of our sins on the Cross so we can be saved through Him.”

            No one bares the weight of my trespasses but me.

            “That is how we receive righteous from Him because we receive sin nature all way from Adam.”

            Again, Jewish mythology. Rather sad mythology, too, given that it presumes that the child is guilty of the parent’s crime.

          • Crono478

            You don’t really believe that Jesus is God?

          • James Von Borcke

            Nope. Why would I?

          • Crono478

            so, you believe in God and don’t believe that Jesus is God?

          • James Von Borcke

            Correct.

          • Crono478

            Okay, what’s point of reading Gospels if you don’t believe that Jesus is God.

          • James Von Borcke

            I don’t understand what one has to do with the other.

            But I probably should point out that the story of Jesus ends with the crucifixion; there is no resurrection, and no false claims of godhead. That was the later invention of priests who sought the same political power and authority that the Jewish priests had acquired. And history shows us how that turned out (and, as you illustrate, continues to propagate itself despite all common sense and modern reason).

          • Crono478

            http SLASH SLASH uuhouston DOT org/files/The_Jefferson_Bible DOT pdf

            For your Thomas Jefferson Bible, is this what you exactly have?

            People really saw Jesus being crucified on the cross and witnessed him dying on it. A lot of them also witnessed resurrected Jesus appearing to them. That completely gave them the hope for the future. That is why they preached His words so anyone can come to repentance and believe in Him as His Savior. That is why it spread across the world despite many attempts to silence or pollute the message.

            You must be mentioning Catholic church. They have a long history of murdering people for simply following what Bible exactly say rather than to follow what the Pope, bishops and priests would say in church.

            The message will continue to spread because it is what Jesus commanded us to. See Mark 16:14-16.

          • James Von Borcke

            Yes, that’s one of them… But I also have the Gnostic Gospels (at least, what’s left of them), though you probably dismiss those as heresy (in other words, removed from the teachings of Christ in order to achieve the political agenda which gave rise to the Holy Roman Empire and eventually led to the birth of Protestantism).

            Catholics aren’t the only Christians with a penchant for murder. Those weren’t Catholics at Salem, and the wars in Ireland were Catholic vs Protestant (and there’s no denying that both sides have red on their ledger). What brand of Christianity inspired the KKK? And who (if not Christian himself) used Christian dialogue to sway Germany into the Holocaust?

            Trying to shovel all of the crimes of Christianity onto the Catholics requires a fair mix of historical ignorance and intentional dishonesty, which is nothing new from the Religious Right in America.

          • Crono478

            ” though you probably dismiss those as heresy (in other words, removed from the teachings of Christ in order to achieve the political agenda which gave rise to the Holy Roman Empire and eventually led to the birth of Protestantism).”

            That is not the reason why I would dismiss these as heresy. I dismiss these as heresy because it is not from God.

            Yes, anyone who professes to be Christian (regardless of what denomination it is such as Catholic, Lutheran, Protestant, Baptists, and so on) that does contrary to what Jesus spoke and taught are false prophets. Jesus warned us about them in Matthew 7:15.

            Let me quote your reply you made to me 14 hours ago,

            “And history shows us how that turned out (and, as you illustrate, continues to propagate itself despite all common sense and modern reason)”

            When people believe in Jesus as their Savior who died on the Cross for their sins, Holy Spirit dwells in them. That is what moved them to spread message about His resurrection and Him as our Savior.

            Honestly, whole thing is foolish to you if you do not believe that you are a sinner.

          • James Von Borcke

            “I dismiss these as heresy because it is not from God.”

            And who told you that they’re not? After all, you sneered at Catholicism earlier, but this picking-and-choosing about what was ‘from God’ and what wasn’t was the political foundation upon which Catholicism was based. That means ~your~ Bible, by containing ~only~ what the Roman politicians believed to be useful, is the result of the same process, and everything that has grown from it (including Protestantism) carries that influence.

            And that includes Saul’s perversion of worshiping Christ as Godhead.

          • Crono478

            We would go forth and back on this discussion related to Bible. You do not accept everything in Gospels, only parts of them. That is why I pointed you to His Law to show you that you are guilty before God. It does not matter if u don’t believe in that, it does not change this fact. God is calling on you to repent of your sins. Other than that, I have no more to say to you.

          • James Von Borcke

            “You do not accept everything in Gospels, only parts of them”

            I accept the teachings of Jesus’ ministry… Those parts which follow are fully fabricated.

            History shows clearly the result of those fabrications.

            Consequently, the division between Gnosticism (those who took responsibility for their own faith) and Orthodoxy (those who believed priests were responsible for the faith of others) was the first division within Christianity. In that division, one added to the Library of Alexandria, while the other burned it (and the knowledge it contained) to the ground.

            Care to guess which did which?

          • Bobby Mae

            So you’re 15 year old comes to you and tells you hes experiencing same sex attraction. Are you going to tell him that God gave him up for vile affection?

          • Crono478

            Yes to your question. It is because God’s word is truth. That is true for all people who reject God’s words. Before he get to the age of 15 years old, will I neglect disciplining and teaching my children when they are growing up? No, I will not. I follow this verse when it comes to parenting:

            Proverb 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go,
            And when he is old he will not depart from it.

            Have you ever seen how children are because parents failed to discipline and teaching kids?

          • Bobby Mae

            A lot of kids who realize they’re attracted to the same sex grow up in regular, Christian households. I would know because I’m one of them.

          • Crono478

            I hope that it is okay for me to ask you a few questions. What leads you to have this attraction? While you do attend church each Sunday (Let me know if I am wrong), do you currently attend a public school?

          • Bobby Mae

            What leads me to this attraction? Lol that’s the million dollar question. I don’t know. And no one knows. No one I know ever consciously “decided” it though. When you’re going thru puberty you obviously realize who you’re physically attracted. And no, I went to a private Lutheran school.

          • Crono478

            I am sorry, I didn’t get back to you until now. You did attend a private Lutheran school. I got more questions for you.

            1) Did your school accept everything in Bible to be truth?
            2) Were you taught subjects such as humanities and evolution?
            3) Did you notice any conflict / contradiction with what you were learning in school?

          • Bobby Mae

            1. Yes
            2. No
            3. Sure. It’s a natural feeling to question things when you’re a teen.

          • Crono478

            Are you taught that Genesis can be taken literally in school?

          • Bobby Mae

            Yes we were taught genesis and told not to believe evolution

          • Crono478

            What are you taught on how one can make to Heaven?

          • Bobby Mae

            I’m not in school anymore… We were taught you need to believe in God and repent

          • Crono478

            I know you are not in school anymore because you indicated that it was in past. I asked you questions because you got me to be curious.

            So, you are told to believe in God and repent, not the other way around?

          • Bobby Mae

            I don’t remember, but if a person didn’t believe in God I don’t think there would be a reason to repent.

          • Crono478

            Since you graduated from your private Lutheran school, do you know how many of your school mates do not believe in God?

          • Bobby Mae

            Lol no.

          • Crono478

            Honestly, did school / church really taught that you must believe in God and then repent? I was taught that as well and it does not work. I did not really any religion at all for around 10 years.

          • Bobby Mae

            No it didn’t really work. And honestly unless you live on a secluded compound and are homeschooled learning to repent and believe in God is not your first priority as an 8th grader.

          • Crono478

            You are right, it was not my priority when I was in 8th grade. I was more obsessed with Starcraft and of course teenager girls back then. Also, I did not really see any point in church thing when I could go to college and get a good job after that.

            However, I realized that all of these stuffs such as having a career, family and good life really matter compared to eternity that awaits us. Our lives on Earth are very short. Have you get right with God?

          • Bobby Mae

            No offense but that’s my business and even if I said yes I’m sure you’ll pick it apart.

          • Crono478

            I understand that I have you on defensive since I’m not first person to ask you this question. If you believe that you are saved, then I will share two verses with you:

            2 Corinthians 13:5
            ——————————-
            5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.

            2 Peter 1:10
            —————————-
            10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

            It is okay, you can examine yourself to see if you are truly saved. If you are not truly saved, then you can visit www DOT needGod DOT com to see how you can be made right with God.

    • James Von Borcke

      Tell you what, Chrono… Since you insist that you hold the twuely twue twueth, and as you insist that the Bible is inerrant (a funny thing to believe if you Bible has the word ‘version’ in the title, but whatever), and as you furthermore like to post excerpts from that version, I present:

      Mark 16: (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe: In My name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them. They shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

      If you are so assured about your faith, then grab yourself a tall cold glass of Draino and prove it for everyone to see.

      Or if that’s too risky, go on down to the local Veteran’s Hospital and restore a limb or two.

      If not… Well, I await whatever excuse you come up with for failing to demonstrate these ‘signs’ that Jesus says will follow those who believe. Not that it could possibly be that you doubt the unquestionable words of Christ. No, you’d never do that, would you? That would mean you’re going to that bad place, and you don’t want that, do you?

  • Larry Smith

    Isn’t it amazing: You can help someone change gender if they want to change. But, if someone wants to not feel that way, you cannot help him.

    Hypocrites.

    Repent or perish. You are wicked. We all deserve to perish. Jesus Christ dies to save us from the punishment we deserve.

    • MisterPine

      Words cannot describe how happy I am not to be following a religion that says things like “repent or perish”. Talk about slavery.

      • Larry Smith

        “Don’t touch that hot stove little Timmy. It’s for your own good that I tell you what to do and not to do.”

        “Stop telling me what to do mother. Why do you treat me like a slave?”

        He who sins is a slave to sin.

        True freedom comes with restrictions. The restrictions keep you and everyone else safe, as long as everyone abides by the restrictions. When everyone disregards the commands of God, you end up with this corrupt planet where it can be unsafe to walk alone at night, where people smile to your face while they really don’t care at all about you or maybe even hate you and wish your demise, or where the people you love the most are the ones who end up betraying you.

        You go ahead and think the way you do. It won’t help you at all. You will remain a slave to sin and face the judgment of God if you die without God’s only propitiation for sin.

  • http://www.google.com/ Jan van Niekerk

    And this, friends, is how the government establishes their religion. You may not proseletyse their converts.

    • Paul Hiett

      Meaning what, exactly?

      • http://www.google.com/ Jan van Niekerk

        What a clever question! Your search for exactness in meaning is commendable.

        • Paul Hiett

          Your condescending tone aside, I’m really asking what you mean by that.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Yeah, I’m trying to figure it out myself. Because it sounds like word salad to me.

          • Bobby Mae

            I don’t get it either. Seems common here… Speak like you know everything, someone asks you for clarification or evidence, they magically disappear.

          • http://www.google.com/ Jan van Niekerk

            You are not asking: you are insinuating that the words you read carry no meaning. Public lying deception begs mockery.

  • Nofun

    Do you know when you masturbate you are having gay sex? Think about it.