Chinese Police Shut Down Summer Camp for School-Aged Children

China  pdSHAANXI, China (China Aid) Authorities in China’s inland Shaanxi province dispersed a house church’s summer camp last week because minors were in attendance.

The two-day camp in Luonan County, in the city of Shangluo, was shut down by three people—two from the local police station and one from the local civil administration bureau—on July 14. A church member named Tang said that eight other people from local township governments arrived as the camp began dispersing.

“There were more than 65 children and adults. The students range from second to sixth grade,” Tang said. “The officials said it was [dispersed] because the church was preaching to minors under 18 years old. They only gave verbal notification [of the dismissal]—there was no specific notice.”

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  • keats5

    “Satanic sculpture” is an euphemism for idol. This is what happens when our culture neglects to teach the Bible to our children. America is repeating the apostasies once practiced in the ancient land of Israel, and are in danger of incurring the Lord’s wrath. What a dark time for this country!

    • Fergus Mason

      “”Satanic sculpture” is an euphemism for idol.”

      So is “cross”.

      • Ukulelemike

        No, a cross is a symbol that represents, not Jesus, but what He did for us. An ‘idol’ is a physical representation of a false deity.

        • Fergus Mason

          “not Jesus, but what He did for us.”

          What’s he supposed to have done for us? He got himself killed. Big deal. Did I ask him to? Am I supposed to be pleased that someone got brutally executed? No. Not in my name.

          • bumblebee8

            You obviously have no idea what true love is all about. Come out of the darkness.

          • Fergus Mason

            “You obviously have no idea what true love is all about”

            How is using your own son as a human sacrifice “true love”? Sounds more like domestic abuse to me.

          • bumblebee8

            Why don’t you ask God for the answer. I am certain He can lead you to the answers you are looking for better than I can. All you need to do is ask, and listen carefully.

          • Fergus Mason

            “Why don’t you ask God for the answer.”

            Because I have a brain. I can find my own answers; why would I ask some Palestinian goblin that I wouldn’t worship even if it was real?

          • bumblebee8

            Then there is no need for you to ask people here questions if you can get all the answers yourself.

          • Fergus Mason

            I have a question: Have you ever actually read the bible with an open mind, instead of just blindly accepting what some shaman says it means? I suspect the answer is no, because otherwise you’d realise it makes no sense at all.

          • Tristrum Genovata Santos

            Can you state a verse in the Bible that does not make sense?

          • Fergus Mason

            “Can you state a verse in the Bible that does not make sense?”

            I can state a whole book of the bible that doesn’t make sense: Revelation. It’s the ravings of a madman.

          • Tristrum Genovata Santos

            I see. You don’t know anything about the Bible, you can’t even state a specific verse.

          • Fergus Mason

            I know the bible well. I suspect you do too, and have come to the same realisation as I did. That’s why you’re trying to divert me by asking for a single VERSE that makes no sense, while hoping nobody will realise that THE WHOLE THING makes no sense.

            If Yahweh didn’t want Adam and Eve to eat the fruit why didn’t he just put the tree somewhere else? If he wanted to forgive people who hadn’t been born for sins that hadn’t been committed yet why didn’t he just forgive us, instead of goading pagan soldiers into nailing him to a plank? The whole thing is incoherent nonsense. Its only saving grace is that some of the writing, at least in the KJV, is excellent.

          • Tristrum Genovata Santos

            A random verse…John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. <>Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” But as we grow up, we create sins, that’s why Jesus died for us. To remove our sins. Don’t you want to go to heaven to meet your love ones? Is that a bad thing to dream of? Look I know you’re a kind person yourself, but please, leave the believers alone, Don’t make them lose their faith.

          • Fergus Mason

            As I said, there are some great lines in the bible. That doesn’t prevent it being, as an overall narrative, incoherent and wicked.

            “Don’t you want to go to heaven to meet your love ones?”

            No. The idea of eternal life horrifies me.

            “please, leave the believers alone”

            I will – when they leave ME alone. People can believe whatever they like in private, but when they start trying to make other people follow their religion’s rules they’re in the wrong and must be resisted.

          • Tristrum Genovata Santos

            Eternal life with loved ones horrifies you? Interesting. I hope you get your eternal rest and not eternal damnation. Well as you said, I will leave you alone, I appreciate that you know great lines in the bible. Thanks for your time.

          • Fergus Mason

            “Eternal life with loved ones horrifies you?”

            Yes. What makes life so special is that we know it will end. That’s what gives us an incentive to live it as well as we can. If it was eternal, why bother to get up and do something positive? You can do it tomorrow, or next week, or in a billion years. No, it’s the knowledge that our time is limited that makes us do it now.

          • wandakate

            JESUS would say to him, “Bless you, go and sin no more”. JESUS would love him, but hate his sins, and want salvation for him.
            I have come to seek and to save those who are lost”, that was what JESUS said.
            He didn’t want anybody to perish but for all to have a saving knowledge of Him and His love for them.
            He offers it to Him as a free gift, he can’t go out and earn it for himself. It’s free. No greater love is that…

          • wandakate

            GO into all the world and preach the gospel to every living person. That was what JESUS wanted them to do.
            Go and make disciples of men, baptizing them in the name of the FATHER, the SON, and the HOLY SPIRIT, teaching them to observe all these things that I have commanded you, and low I am with you always, even until the end of the age.
            My FATHER is working, and I too am working said JESUS.
            The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few.
            We were commissioned to reach the lost sheep (souls). We weren’t told to leave them alone. That’s why we have missionaries.
            BUT, some people won’t adhere to the truth. You can indeed lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink. Some people are so full of pride, and arrogance and are so stubborn that nothing will reach them, until they lose everything they have and then they cry out to GOD.
            People can believe whatever they like, that is true, and they can also spend their eternity in hell. There is an eternity whether you like it or not, and there is only two places you will go, either to Heaven (the Kingdom of GOD) or to hell (the kingdom of satan) and his demons. GOD doesn’t send anybody to hell, you will send yourself, it’s clearly your own choice.

          • Fergus Mason

            Oh grow up. I’m not going to hell. NOBODY is going to hell It’s not real, just a story to frighten the gullible with.

          • Nathaniel Villarreal

            God is sovereign He doesnt need us to prove or take up for Him…Truth is if you think about it…there is no reason to why an almighty sovereign God would make humans..truth is he doesn’t need our love he doesn’t need us…but we need him…He isnt up there dissapointed or hurt that people dont believe in him…he doesnt cry over those people dont believe in Him he doesnt need them to believe in him lol we are to share the gospel not force it…so if someone doesnt believe its not our job to make them believe besides God decides who gets saved and who doesnt…He reveals himself to who he chooses…we dont choose God he chose us Individually which are the elect and its not our job or right to say if its right or wrong if he created everything we have no right in our sinful lives to object to what he does…so yes fergus mason the bible makes absolute nonsense unless God reveals it…so many christians make God seem like he is small that He needs us..God is sovereign and is beyond our mental capacity to comprehend which is why he doesnt make sense because we try to put him into a human perspective

          • wandakate

            Don’t make them lose their faith! WHAT? A real true honest to GOD Christian “is not” going to lose their faith over any of this.
            We are to stand strong, we are to persevere, we are to put on the whole armor of GOD. This is a battle of a spiritual nature. We are not wrestling against flesh and blood here but with the powers of the dark world (the satanic world). Life boils down to a spiritual battle between the forces of good and the forces of evil, and nothing more.
            LOVE the LORD thy GOD will all thy heart, all thy soul, all thy strength and all thy might, and LOVE they neighbor as thyself…
            We however must confess of our sins, repent of them, and then finally forsake them. We must obey the word of GOD. Our salvation depends on our “obedience”…Saved by grace, but judged by our works.

          • Lisa Jackson

            Yahweh doesn’t want robots but made us with a free will, you have the choice to accept or reject Him. If you want Him and a relationship with Him He will be happy to have you or if you don’t care for Him is your choice not to. He had to die as payment for sins, blood was required as form of payment for sins. He came down voluntarily nobody forced Him. He could as God not care about you or me but He wants a family with you and me and others. There will be some who don’t care for Him and reject Him. But realizing that someone like Him could love that much knowing no sin yet knowing the origin of sin and our hearts He still chose to come down and die for you and me. Satan is just an imitator. People won’t learn so the bible says in Revelation they will build a third temple(check Temple Institute in Jerusalem) to do animal sacrifices and all the world is awaiting their messiah(the Jews , the muslims, the buddhists, etc) but this man will be worse than Hitler called the beast or anti christ who will show his true colors in the middle of the Great Tribulation and have everyone worship him and his statute no one will be able to buy nor sell except getting a mark on the right hand or forehead(check microchip). Why do you think the world is going cashless? the bible foretold this thousands of years ago and in the book of Revelation it tells you who the players in the last world war will be, check it out for yourself. God is patient, good, loving, merciful. You have the choice to reject him fine but also be mature about accepting the consequences of what is coming.

          • wandakate

            It’s written in apocalyptic language. It’s understandable if you know how to translate it from the Greek writings of old. There is much in it that is understandable and JESUS said we would receive a blessing for reading and obeying it’s words.
            It’s the future book, it’s meaning is for the time before the appearing of JESUS back to earth. I hope you find your answers and salvation before its too late. Many people will perish for lack of knowledge.

          • Fergus Mason

            I’m asking for actual evidence, not some mad old book.

          • Lark62

            Ps 137:9 makes sense if you’re a psycho.
            “Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.”

            There are lots of others.

          • Tristrum Genovata Santos

            I think this was a metaphor for a place, I have to review it, thanks, I see this as a challenge to understand the Bible more.

          • Fergus Mason

            No, it’s directed at the Babylonians and it means exactly what it says.

          • Tristrum Genovata Santos

            Well, I haven’t reviewed it yet, if that was the case, the One who gave life can take it back, and He can give it back again. It also does not mean God does not exist, your just implying the He was a bad god or in a better view, a misunderstood God.

          • Fergus Mason

            “the One who gave life can take it back”

            So it’s OK for parents to murder their kids?

          • Tristrum Genovata Santos

            Not everyone is a children of God, those who accept Him are the ones who can call Him Father. He will not murder Christians, the devil will.

          • Fergus Mason

            That doesn’t answer my question. If it’s OK for the one who created a life to end that life, is it OK for parents to kill their kids?

          • Tristrum Genovata Santos

            Off course it is not ok to kill your own child. He created life, life in general, life belongs to Him. He can take it back. And he will bring it back eternally if we are worthy. If God kills, one good example is when you are too old, or you are in pain, He wants you to rest. Murder is for the devil.

          • Fergus Mason

            “Off course it is not ok to kill your own child”

            Why not? You created it, after all.

            “He wants you to rest”

            Then why is suicide a sin?

          • Tristrum Genovata Santos

            You don’t understand, God’s children are the people who accepted Him. He will not kill His children (Christians).

            It depends on the suicide, Samson suicide himself to kill evil Philistines, It was not a sin.

            God is the giver of life. He gives, and He takes away (Job 1:21). Suicide, the taking of one’s own life, is ungodly because it rejects God’s gift of life. No man or woman should presume to take God’s authority upon themselves to end his or her own life. (c) Suicide is a sin and all sins can be forgiven.

            Look man, this can go on forever, you will never be satisfied with my answers because you already decided to hate God and Christianity, or maybe I’m just not knowledgeable enough in the Bible to surpass your hunger of questioning my faith. I will leave this page, I will leave you alone, in fairness to those Christians that bugs you, maybe its worth for them that you may hate them trying to save you.

          • Fergus Mason

            “you already decided to hate God”

            Not at all. I’d hate him if he existed, because the Yahweh character is a monster, but why hate something that’s not real? It would be like hating Lord Voldemort.

            “you may hate them trying to save you.”

            They’re not trying to save me. They’re trying to make me live according to the rules of a Bronze Age Palestinian religion that I don’t like.

          • Fergus Mason

            “Suicide is a sin and all sins can be forgiven.”

            What about denying the holy spirit? That can’t be forgiven. Anyone who denies the holy spirit is beyond redemption and doomed to hell.

            So, just to prove how likely I think hell is to exist, I deny the holy spirit. There is no such thing. It’s just a ridiculous Levantine myth.

            And now you can all stop saying I should pray for Yahweh and Jesus to forgive me, because according to your bible they never will. They’d forgive me for rape, murder or genocide, but not for this. Cool, huh?

          • wandakate

            Suicide would be a sin because the person takes their own life meaning that would be murder.
            When GOD takes a life it was his life to take in the beginning. ALL SOULS (people) ARE MINE.
            GOD gives the life and GOD is able to take it away. We’re not in control of that. When we take our own life, we were in control of that making suicide a SIN.

          • Fergus Mason

            “GOD is able to take it away.”

            So can I.

            “We’re not in control of that.”

            See my avatar pic? See what I’m holding? I know it’s small and blurry, but that’s an L85A2 assault rifle. It was designed specifically to take life away and can do it in a very controlled manner. Your god was not involved in any way.

          • wandakate

            As I have already told you but apparently you have a comprehension issue. GOD GIVES LIFE, and GOD TAKES IT AWAY…The parents (mother) birthed the child, but she did not breath the breath of life into the newborn baby, GOD does that through His own breath (the breath of life-His spirit).
            So these questions are not relevant to anything.

          • Fergus Mason

            “GOD GIVES LIFE, and GOD TAKES IT AWAY”

            No no no, that’s all wrong. Life is a natural process. Anyway, people can take life away. I know that; I was a soldier. You’re not going to tell me that your god invented assault rifles and Predator drones, are you?

          • wandakate

            GOD can give life, take it back and then give it back again. YES, He can and He did. In 2001 I was about 53 and I died(He took His breath from me), but then I lived again, (He gave it back to me). So, I am living proof that He can do that very thing. GOD does exist, and He’s not a bad GOD, He may be misunderstood by many people who are lost, or deceived, or misinformed, but He’s not bad, GOD is love.

          • Ayjayar

            Ps 137:9 must be read as continuing from verse 8 (“O Babylon, you will be destroyed. Happy is the one who pays you back for what you have done to us.”), recognizing what Babylon did to Jerusalem before. The psalmist asks nothing but for God, the Ultimate Judge (Gen. 18:25) will now act with justice (Rom 2:5-6) and to treat Babylon as it had treated Jerusalem, and then there will be justice (‘Happy’ has also a connotation of “being fulfilled”). And this was no idle speculation: when the prophet Elisha was asked to minister to the dying Aramean king, Benhadad, Elisha stared at Hazael (the king’s trusted man and future king) and wept. Asked why, Elisha responded: “I know the terrible things you will do to the people of Israel. You will burn their fortified cities, kill their young men w/ the sword, DASH THEIR LITTLE CHILDREN TO THE GROUND, and rip open their pregnant women!” (Read 2 Kgs 8: 7-15).
            What are the “lots of others,” Lark62, that we can help you with?

          • Lark62

            Thanks anyway. When I want to see tap dancing I’ll watch Singing in the Rain.

            The plain language reading is that israel wants revenge on Babylon and murdering infant children will make them very happy.

            Yuck.

          • Ayjayar

            You’re welcome. Still, watching “Singing in the Rain” to learn tap dancing is a poor way to do it, I think, although Fred Astaire might be flattered at your bravado. True, Israel wants “revenge” (who wouldn’t?), but they want God to do it for them (“Vengeance is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord” :Rom 12:19). But of course, we can’t expect you to understand that?

          • Lark62

            My example was apparently too strong and was deleted. The biblical god blesses and even commands murder, enslavement and rape on numerous occasions.

            The bible contains many beautiful and uplifting sound bites. But before you tell anyone to follow that book, it is important to pay attention to rest of it as well.

          • Tomasina Serveaux

            I asked him for a horse once. He never did give me one. :o(

          • hpowell

            Wow man really, you must not know what your talking about and you must not know the true meaning of love! Jesus loved us and sacrificed himself and willing at that, He said that laying down your life for ppl you love is the greatest act of love. which any good person would risk their lives for the greater good that’sthat’s why thousands of men and women serve in military and as police officers and fire fighters do the same everyday!

          • GRComments

            Fergus, That’s ok, you don’t have to accept anything that Jesus did for you. Your choice.

          • Fergus Mason

            “Fergus, That’s ok, you don’t have to accept anything that Jesus did for you. Your choice.”

            Jesus never did anything for me. He was a wandering rabbi in a country I’ve never visited, who was executed by the Romans 2,000 years before I was born. What’s he supposed to have done for me, lent me his power drill?

          • GRComments

            Fergus, I expect that you don’t need a power drill as much as some other things.

          • Fergus Mason

            “Fergus, I expect that you don’t need a power drill as much as some other things.”

            You’re quite right; I have a hammer drill and a cordless. What I could really use is a good table saw.

          • wandakate

            You DO NOT understand the entire concept of the cross. GOD loved the people so much that He had to make a way for them to enter the Kingdom of GOD and wanted to grant salvation to them. The way He did that was to die on the cross for the sins of all mankind. It was LOVE, it was DEVOTION, it was SACRIFICE, it was so that we could have everlasting life and not spend our eternity in the pits of hell. If you don’t accept that as you say then your eternal destination is already sealed. We have a free will to make our own choices and it looks like you’ve made yours.

          • Fergus Mason

            “He had to make a way for them to enter the Kingdom of GOD and wanted to grant salvation to them.”

            So why didn’t he just do it? He’s supposed to be all-powerful, after all. If he wanted to let people into heaven he just had to say so, not go through this whole ridiculous charade.

            “it was SACRIFICE”

            No it wasn’t. To sacrifice something you have to give it up, permanently. Jesus just took the weekend off.

            “your eternal destination is already sealed”

            Meh, whatever.

        • Lark62

          Jesus had a lousy weekend. Big deal. According to your story he popped back to life along with 500 others, so what exactly did he sacrifice?

          • Jane Jessee

            I feel sorry for anyone so full of blasphemy as you are. When you have to face Almighty God, you will wish you hadn’t been so sarcastic. He is our Savior and Lord and you need to show reverence!!!

          • Lark62

            Sorry. I neither need nor want a savior and lord.

            If I were to acquire one, it would be one that values human life, respects personal autonomy and doesn’t mistake women for personal property. It would also help if it actually existed.

          • Phipps Mike

            ” and doesn’t mistake women for personal property.”
            you betcha! amen!

          • Fergus Mason

            “He is our Savior and Lord and you need to show reverence!!!”

            Don’t tell me what I need to do. If your pet spook wants me to do something he can ask me himself. If he exists, which I doubt.

          • sebastian

            You will see soon enough.

          • Fergus Mason

            “You will see soon enough.”

            Why do people like you do that? Do you seriously think vague threats of divine vengeance are going to convince me that your god actually does exist after all? More importantly, do you think dickish comments like that are going to make secularists LESS convinced that religious fundamentalists are unpleasant and insane, or maybe MORE convinced?

        • Ken Campbell

          An idol the embodiment of the respective god while a symbol only represents the god. It would be very bad for a believer to destroy an idol but it is not such a big thing to destroy a symbol. The cross is basically a symbol (as is the fish thingy). I’m not sure if the crucifix would be considered a symbol or an idol

        • Dominic T. Hofilena

          Fergus, If you die today and go to hell for eternity. You would say “I wish I believed in God”. You are deceived playing to be smarter than God. Its not your fault we are on earth anyway.

          We christians don’t know how to explain or help people like you, But we want you to be saved as well, cause God said so on
          Mark 16:15-16

          Why not try to step down and just listen to what they have been telling you. Things might change.

          • Fergus Mason

            “If you die today and go to hell for eternity”

            Hell is a fictitious place. You can’t frighten me with it.

            “But we want you to be saved as well, cause God said so on
            Mark 16:15-16”

            Too late. I’ve denied the holy spirit. Your magic book says that’s unforgivable. Unlike minor crimes like rape or mass murder, which your god is cool with as long as you say sorry afterwards.

        • Tomasina Serveaux

          The cross was an implement of horrific torture in Roman times, reserved mainly for slaves, pirates, and traitors (not guys claiming to be God). If Jesus had been killed in an electric chair, would you be making jewelry versions of that, too? How about a hangman’s noose, or a bullet? What if he had set fire to himself?

      • Sharon Jackson

        Fergus Mason: Sorry, the satanic sculpture represents all of the evil in the world, past and present. The Cross represents God, come in the form of a man to die for our sins so that we may have eternal life. God is not an idol, an idol is only a symbol. God is a creator! Satan wants to take our lives and souls, Jesus came that we may have life.

        • Fergus Mason

          “The Cross represents God”

          The cross represents torture and death.

          • bumblebee8

            If that is all you can see, then you have not looked closely enough. We have been fully reconciled with the Father through the Son. The mystery of the Cross will never be known to mortal man, and yes I still weep at what He endured for us all. He willingly gave Himself up out of pure, unconditional love for all and withstood chastisements and suffering so no one will perish. He did it for you and He did it for me and He did it fore everyone. Turn to Him and know the love that is waiting for you.

          • Fergus Mason

            “He willingly gave Himself up”

            Oh did he really?

            Matt 27:46 – And at the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, “Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani?” which is translated, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

            “pure, unconditional love for all”

            It’s not very unconditional if the penalty for not loving him back is being flame-grilled forever, is it?

          • bumblebee8

            So you know the bible but don’t like what it says?

          • Fergus Mason

            “So you know the bible but don’t like what it says?”

            I know the bible and utterly loathe most of what it says, because it’s morally repellent.

            There’s some good erotic poetry in there though.

          • Psk6565

            You are immoral in your inconsistency. You should love all actions, moral and immoral. Your view on the world has no reasons for morality or immorality.

          • Fergus Mason

            “You should love all actions moral and immoral.”

            No, that would be sociopathic.

            “Your view on the world has no reasons to morality or immorality.”

            Yes it does. It’s just that my morality is based on reason and empathy, rather than the insane scribblings of long-dead Middle Eastern shamans.

          • Psk6565

            “No, that would be sociopathic.”

            Do you have a moral objection to being a sociopath?

            No, it doesn’t. Your brain is sending you thoughts, thoughts that are a result of chemicals that are neither moral or immoral.

            “my morality is based on reason”

            No, your morality is based on chemicals that have no reasons and have no morality. Your thought are not a result of your reason, they have there origin in inanimate chemicals.

          • Fergus Mason

            How do you decide what’s morally right? Do you evaluate the consequences of your actions based on reason and the effect they might have on other people, or do you just dip into the tribal lore of a pack of genocidal Bronze Age savages?

          • Psk6565

            If naturalism is truth, the is no such thing as morality. My brain gives me my thoughts based on firing synapses which means that I have no reasons for believing in morality. What I claim to know as moral or immoral is not based on reason, but based on what results from chemicals working in my brain.

            You have no reasons and you betray what you say you believe when you claim you do. Your view is absurd and you contradict yourself every time you believe you have control over your thoughts. You betray what you claim to believe when you accuse God of being immoral.

          • Fergus Mason

            Answer my question.

          • http://monklinux.blogspot.com Jurie Botha

            Oh I see where you’re coming from, and I don’t agree.

            Certainly not all thoughts are concious, that much I can attest to. But, the decision to go from thought to action is a wilful choice.

            You basically argued away free will there, congrats!

          • Psk6565

            Whats going on? You want to respond to people who do not know the absurdity of your worldview so you can get away with attacking Christ?

          • Fergus Mason

            My worldview is this:

            – The best way to understand the universe we live in is to study it with the best tools at our disposal, and to constantly refine our understanding as we learn more.

            – Life has no inherent purpose, so it’s up to you to give it one.

            – This is the only life we get; you are solely responsible for making the most of it.

            – You should treat other creatures with empathy. Don’t cause unnecessary suffering.

            – Nothing is true just because somebody says it is. Question all dogmas.

            What bits are absurd?

          • Psk6565

            – The best way to understand the universe we live in is to study it with the best tools at our disposal, and to constantly refine our understanding as we learn more.

            What tool did you use to study this?

            – Life has no inherent purpose, so it’s up to you to give it one.

            Absurd – You say there is no purpose and then claim the purpose: “it’s up to you to give it one.”

            – This is the only life we get; you are solely responsible for making the most of it.

            Absurd – You told me I give life purpose therefore my purpose is to make nothing of it.

            – You should treat other creatures with empathy. Don’t cause unnecessary suffering.

            Why?

            – Nothing is true just because somebody says it is. Question all dogmas.

            Is that true?

          • Fergus Mason

            – Study what?

            – Your pet has no inherent name. It’s up to you to give it one.

            – Incoherent.

            – Because if everyone does that there will be less suffering. Suffering is bad. If you’re tempted to ask WHY suffering is bad I can work you over with pliers and electrodes for a few hours; then you’ll understand.

            – I can’t tell you that. Question it; see where the evidence leads.

          • Psk6565

            -The concept you wrote about.

            -Your pet has no inherent name. Yours pet name is Bob. (You contradict yourself. You say there is no purpose to life and then give people the purpose, which is “it’s up to you to give it one.” That is a purpose, to find a purpose.)

            -Prove it

            -My enjoyment is not the gauge for what is bad. People enjoy drugs that destroy them. Who’s suffering? Serial Killers enjoy murder.

            -Hey, you said to question it.

          • Fergus Mason

            – What, that the best way to understand something is to investigate it carefully? Well you got a better idea?

            – My cat has a name if I give him one. Your life has a purpose if you give it one. It’s not compulsory.

            – It doesn’t make any sense.

            – I didn’t say your enjoyment was the gauge for what is bad. Strawman fail.

            – Yes. But you should accept it unquestioningly because I say so, right?

          • Psk6565

            – What, that the best way to understand something is to investigate it carefully? Well you got a better idea?

            Okay, so you assume this to be true without studying whether it is true. I thought you were to question all dogmas.

            – My cat has a name if I give him one. Your life has a purpose if you give it one. It’s not compulsory.

            Wow, so how do you feel about babies? Purposeless?

            – It doesn’t make any sense.

            Prove it. You can prove things to be irrational.

            – I didn’t say your enjoyment was the gauge for what is bad. Strawman fail.

            Your basis for the answer to my question about suffering being bad was, my pain. Do you care to prove that suffering is bad other then my pain?

          • Fergus Mason

            – There’s plenty of evidence that it’s true. We can understand the solar system by studying it and analysing what we observe. Any other way to understand it – such as, for example, believing old books written by desert nomads – gives incorrect results.

            – Yes, babies are purposeless. They’re not FOR anything.

            – It just doesn’t make sense. Not hard.

            – It doesn’t need any reason other than your pain. If I rip your fingernails out with pliers and you don’t like it then I am doing a bad thing, SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU DON’T LIKE IT.

          • Psk6565

            – You proved you assumed the scientific method was true without proving it to be true.

            – Your quite ignorant of babies

            – That is not a rational response.

            – So, if I like it, it is good!

          • Fergus Mason

            – No, I’m basing that on the fact the scientific method actually helps us understand. You know another way to find out about things?

            – Nope.

            – Yes it is. Your statement made no sense.

            – If you enjoy being tortured then yes, torturing you is good.

          • Psk6565

            – Did you use the scientific method to understand that the scientific method helps you understand things?

            – If I enjoy torturing, does that mean it is good?

          • Fergus Mason

            – Grow the fück up

            – No. Causing unnecessary suffering is bad.

          • Psk6565

            – Please self reflect on your reaction. This shows you can’t answer the question and have no rational response.

            – You are being arbitrary. No. Cause unnecessary suffering is not bad.

          • Fergus Mason

            – No, it shows that your question was childish and stupid.

            – So you think causing unnecessary suffering is OK?

          • Psk6565

            – But you can’t prove it. You would rather attack instead of using that reason you hold up to such high esteem.

            – You can’t prove it is not OK.

          • Fergus Mason

            – Of course I can prove it. I have a telescope; you have your faith. Let’s see which one of us can find out more about the moon, shall we? Bam, science wins.

            – Do you actually think that’s an argument that deserves to be taken seriously?

          • Psk6565

            -You do not want to answer my last question because you can’t or you can’t prove it to be irrational.

            -I didn’t argue that causing unnecessary suffering is not OK

          • http://monklinux.blogspot.com Jurie Botha

            Maybe if any of your arguments made any sense (or weren’t plain psychotic) you’d get an answer.

            Or maybe you’re trolling? who knows?

          • http://monklinux.blogspot.com Jurie Botha

            I think you might want to seek psychiatric help if you think that causing suffering is okay. It makes you – at the very least – a sadist – possibly a psychopath.

          • Psk6565

            Do you believe in naturalism? That the universe is governed by only natural laws?

          • Fergus Mason

            Natural laws don’t govern anything; they are descriptions of how observed physical processes work. For example the 2nd Law of thermodynamics says that entropy in an isolated system cannot decrease. The reason entropy in an isolated system cannot decrease is because, basically, heat cannot flow from a cooler body to a warmer one. The reason is NOT that there’s a law against it.

            No, I don’t believe in the supernatural.

          • Psk6565

            Then my earlier response that you did not respond to corresponds to what you believe.

          • Fergus Mason

            No it doesn’t. My brain is not sending me thoughts. My brain is part of me. It’s the part that MAKES me into me, rather than just a bag of organs. When my brain stops working I will cease to exist. My thoughts are a product of many things, some of which are chemical and some of which are not.

          • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

            You’re right about “laws.” They are merely the best description of what is observed. Newton’s “laws” were revised when relatavistic effects were factored in. And BTW entropy is merely a measure of the orderedness of a closed system. Statistically, closed systems have an EXTREMELY high probability of increased entropy. But, as my first thermodynamics instructor pointed out, there is nothing IMPOSSIBLE about a pan of water spontaneously boiling. Just don’t waste your time looking for it.

          • Fergus Mason

            “entropy is merely a measure of the orderedness of a closed system”

            Well kind of but also not really. There’s no reason why a very ordered system can’t have high entropy. Uniformly distributed cool grey gas is quite ordered, for example, but entropy is very high.

          • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

            Not sure how ordered your example is, but just for the record:

            Entropy:

            a measure of the unavailable energy in a closed
            thermodynamic system that is also usually considered to be a measure of
            the system’s disorder, that is a property of the system’s state, and
            that varies directly with any reversible change in heat in the system
            and inversely with the temperature of the system; broadly : the degree of disorder or uncertainty in a system

          • Lark62

            Nicely said.

          • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

            I really had no interest in joining this nasty thread, but I think it might be interesting to analyze what you just posted.

            1. Why is it up to me to give my life purpose (telos)? That implies that there is some higher (albeit unknowable) purpose toward which we may choose to strive. Otherwise any meaning we create is merely a delusion needed to shield us from the whole pointless nature of existence. Existentialism was at least honest enough to admit that.

            2. How EXACTLY do you know that this is the only life we get? That strikes me as mere assumption on your part.

            3. Why should I treat other creatures with empathy? If I choose a “meaning” for life in which my personal power is the highest good, I have no obligation to be empathic. Neitzche would agree.

            4. Everything you just said may or may not be true. Everything you say should be questioned.

          • Fergus Mason

            “Why is it up to me to give my life purpose”

            Because nobody else is going to. It’s your life.

            “How EXACTLY do you know that this is the only life we get?”

            That’s simple. Your consciousness is entirely dependent on the functioning of your brain. When your brain dies that’s the end; you can’t exist any more.

            “Why should I treat other creatures with empathy?”

            Ah, a question that only a sociopath could ask.

            “Everything you say should be questioned.”

            Absolutely. Investigate it with an open mind. Be ready to accept or reject it depending on what the evidence shows. No claim is beyond examination.

          • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

            1. What’s so important about “purpose?” Is a life lived according to “purpose” objectively better than one lived without? Says who?

            2. You are making the assumption that existence and consciousness are congruent. You have no basis for believing that. That may be your subjective experience so far, but it’s a very shaky ontology.

            3. Using the psychological term “sociopath” implies that followers of Neitzche are morally inferior to others. Says who?

            4. What is inherently good about an open mind? It assumes free will but you have no basis for believing in free will. Are determinists somehow inferior? Says who?

          • Fergus Mason

            “Is a life lived according to “purpose” objectively better than one lived without?”

            Nope, but if you do want a purpose you’re going to have to find it yourself.

            “You are making the assumption that existence and consciousness are congruent”

            They’re not, but even if you did want to live forever there wouldn’t be a lot of point if you were in a persistent vegetative state, would there?

            “Using the psychological term “sociopath” implies that followers of Neitzche are morally inferior to others.”

            People who lack empathy tend to act in ways that cause unnecessary harm, i.e. that are immoral.

            “What is inherently good about an open mind?”

            It prevents you from being a dogmatic, blinkered moron.

          • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

            1. Agreed.

            2. Perhaps the term “existence” was not precise enough. the correct term is “being” of which human self-awareness is a type. But don’t confuse the “ghost in the machine” with the machine. Maybe human consciousness does not require a human body. I remain agnostic on that.

            3. “Immoral??” Per whose definition of morality? You accidentally hold a set of beliefs that places a higher good on not harming others, but it ain’t the only game in town. Plenty of other moral codes that place self-preservation over altruism.

            4. You failed to answer my point and instead resorted to sputtering pejoratives. Here’s a quote to ponder:

            “Merely having an open mind is nothing. The object of opening the
            mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid.” – G. K. Chesterton

          • Fergus Mason

            “Maybe human consciousness does not require a human body.”

            No, we can demonstrate empirically that consciousness is tied to the brain. A basic demonstration can be achieved with ten pints of beer. More sophisticated experiments involve studying people who’ve suffered brain damage. Physical changes to the brain affect consciousness. If the two were independent that wouldn’t happen.

            “Plenty of other moral codes that place self-preservation over altruism.”

            They’re not mutually exclusive. I don’t cause unnecessary harm, but if someone threatened me I wouldn’t hesitate to harm them as much as was required.

            “Here’s a quote to ponder”

            Chesterton was wrong. Even when you’ve found an answer that satisfies you it should still be constantly questioned, because a better one might come along.

          • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

            1. I agree. The only form of consciousness we are aware of does require a brain. That doesn’t rule out other forms, we just don’t know about them.

            2. Using terms like “unnecessary harm” presumes a moral structure. Like I said, you were brought up in it and a fish doesn’t realize it’s wet. I won’t go any further on this unless, by some twist of fate, you read Neitzche.

            3. The Chesterton quote was more of an amusing aphorism. I understand the point you are making and pretty much agree with you.

          • Fergus Mason

            “That doesn’t rule out other forms, we just don’t know about them.”

            This is true, but purely speculative. I have no reason to believe that any form of consciousness exists without a physical substrate to exist in. Could consciousness exist in a machine? Absolutely. But a disembodied consciousness? I’m going to dismiss that until someone gives me a semi-plausible hypothesis.

            “Using terms like “unnecessary harm” presumes a moral structure.”

            From your point of view I’m probably using “morality” as shorthand for “benefit-maximising behaviour”. If you don’t NEED to harm something, why do it? I would prefer that other people didn’t harm me and so I assume that other people – or any other sentient being – would prefer that I didn’t harm them. So, unless I have to, I won’t.

            “The Chesterton quote was more of an amusing aphorism.”

            It is. There’s also “If you open your mind too much your brain will fall out”, by Anon. I think what both highlight is the difference between being ready to question, test and if necessary alter your own beliefs, and credulity.

          • hpowell

            Seriously at that time he was feeling all our punishments and our condemnation, of course he felt that way, that’s how we feel when we are condemned by our God, you know that bible is much deeper then just the words that you read.

          • Fergus Mason

            “at that time he was feeling all our punishments and our condemnation”

            No he wasn’t, because we hadn’t even been born yet. In any case it’s impossible to accept someone else’s guilt. One of the most loathsome things Christianity has done through the ages is make people suffer from undeserved guilt.

            “bible is much deeper then just the words that you read.”

            No it isn’t. It’s a book. The meaning of a book comes from its words. Anything that can’t simply be read, but needs to be “interpreted” by its custodian priests, is bad writing.

          • hpowell

            Idk where you have learned about Christianity but you have it all wrong! And the bible is not just any book, it is way deeper than a book there are deeper meanings to it then just words just like poetry but I guess that you’d have to be deeper then a puddle of mudd to understand.

          • Fergus Mason

            “Idk where you have learned about Christianity but you have it all wrong!”

            From the bible.

            “And the bible is not just any book”

            Yes, it is just a book – or more accurately a collection of books, written between about 800BCE and 200CE then heavily edited over the next couple of centuries.

          • Lark62

            There are actualky 4 mutually exclusive versions of the story, and jesus’ demeanor and actions were different in each one.

            Almost like the 4 authors were esch retelling the same fictional story with their own spin to drive home a different moral lesson.

          • Fergus Mason

            Yeah, it’s almost as if Matthew and Luke both based their accounts on Mark and another document that’s now lost, while John was writing down what somebody told him in the pub.

          • pslinger

            The cross represents redemption, forgiveness from sin and eternal life in Christ. God-haters like you refuse to understand that.

          • Fergus Mason

            “The cross represents redemption, forgiveness from sin and eternal life in Christ.”

            No it doesn’t. It’s an execution device. Yeshua ben Pandera was only one of millions who’ve been crucified.

      • pslinger

        Baloney. The cross is not an idol, as it is not an image of any kind of being or God. The Baphomet statue is exactly that. Get your terminology straight.

        • Fergus Mason

          It’s a physical focus of your Yahweh-adoration. It’s an idol.

      • IsReal

        B.S., you’re reasoning is perv.

      • FoJC_Forever

        You’re right about this statement. Many use a cross as an idol. Rather than having a relationship with Jesus (the) Christ, who rose from the dead, they simply have a religion. I don’t expect this Truth to make any difference to you, but it is there nonetheless.

        I read through most of your responses and they are typical of an argumentative troll. You just like to argue and, in your finite mind, you believe you’ve given some thoughtful and reasonable responses. However, you’re just a typical Unbeliever. What you believe is what people who have rejected God, rejected Good, have believed for thousands of years.

        God didn’t kill Jesus. Jesus is the Eternal Word of God made into a human being. Jesus is unlike anyone who has ever been born in the earth. He was manifested for the express purpose to take the punishment of Sin upon Himself, because He alone could bear it, so that people could receive God’s Righteousness. He bore this Sin on when He gave Himself to be crucified, so that we could receive His Righteousness and come into a parent/child relationship with our Creator.

        People shouldn’t just focus on the death and burial of the Son of God, but also focus on His Life. While the crucifixion is paramount to Salvation, death isn’t the focus of Salvation. Life is the focus of Salvation. What Jesus did, He did so those who Believe in Him will receive Eternal Life. God’s Life. Life that isn’t subject to Death.

        It’s sad that you only find pleasure in trolling Christians and bashing Christianity. I know you try to bash other things to make yourself appear fair and balanced, but the reality is that you’re filled with Darkness. You embrace this Darkness. You take pleasure in the Darkness. There is a Light which can lead you out, but you have to follow the Light. Jesus (the) Christ is the Light and the Life.

        • Fergus Mason

          “He was manifested for the express purpose to take the punishment of Sin upon Himself, because He alone could bear it, so that people could receive God’s Righteousness. He bore this Sin on when He gave Himself to be crucified, so that we could receive His Righteousness and come into a parent/child relationship with our Creator.”

          That entire statement is completely meaningless. I don’t mean it’s incoherent English; it isn’t. It just doesn’t mean anything. It makes no sense.

    • wandakate

      Satan the god of this evil world that we now find ourselves in. The Virgin Mary is also a statue (idol). We are repeating the days of Sodom and Gomorrah as well. There is apostasy in the land, a falling away from faith unto demons and spirits of the devil. Scriptures told us we would be this way before JESUS appears again and here we are right smack dab in the middle of it so it seems.
      The LORD’s wrath will come sooner than people expect. Will the church stand up at this critical moment in time, or will they turn their backs on GOD?????
      JESUS even said, “When I come, will I find faith on the earth”?

    • Tomasina Serveaux

      Yeah, all those crosses, altars, paintings of Jesus, crucifixes, Nativities, etc. certainly are NOT idols, not in the least! They’re completely different from OTHER religions’ statues, I tell you!

  • Anton Viljoen

    Detroit … lead the way of demonic culture

    • Fergus Mason

      What do demons have to do with it? The Satanic Temple don’t believe in supernatural beings.

      • Ukulelemike

        True, Satan is seen more as a symbol of personal freedom and hedonism, though even in this, they worship the true Satan who does indeed urge man into hedonism, whether it be in atheistic hedonism or religious hedonism.

        • Fergus Mason

          “they worship the true Satan who does indeed urge man into hedonism”

          Another way of putting it is “They follow the idea that people should do what makes them happy, as long as it doesn’t harm anyone else, rather than doing what priests and shamans say you should.” And what’s wrong with being happy? We only live once; we might as well enjoy it.

          • StereoMan

            Ew. I hope WorldGoneCrazy doesn’t read this. You’ll get his whole “objective morality cannot exist without God” manifesto.

            As for myself, I like your style, Fergus Mason.

          • Fergus Mason

            I’ve seen that argument before. It’s complete dog toffee of course because it’s based on the unsupported assumption that god himself is moral, and has a fixed moral stance. Reading the bible leads to exactly the opposite conclusion: God is a vicious, spiteful and capricious monster who’s always changing his mind.

          • StereoMan

            It’s worse than I’ve made it out to be actually because he takes a perfectly good Richard Dawkins quote and tries to make it sound like Dawkins is suggesting people don’t require morals (when he’s actually talking about the UNIVERSE not requiring it). But you just have to meet this guy for yourself to fully experience it, I suppose.

          • Fergus Mason

            I used to debate in ShockofGod’s chatroom. They love all these fuzzy philosophical arguments, ignoring the fact that they actually prove nothing. I mean Aquinas’s proofs? Utter trivia. A goat could debunk them.

          • StereoMan

            This place is the motherlode. As you will have noticed by now. I encounter No True Scotsman and Argument from Silence most often here.

  • FoJC_Forever

    Many Americans are already worshiping Satan through other kinds of idolatry. The making and unveiling of this statue is a big deal, for certain, for it shows the boldness of those who embrace Evil. However, it’s simply the logical step for a culture that has been wandering away from God for decades, even centuries. It is today as was foretold by the LORD and foreshadowed by the nation of Israel as they wandered away from God and embraced other cultures and their beliefs. The End of this Age is at hand.

    Judgement is coming.

    • Fergus Mason

      “it shows the boldness of those who embrace Evil.”

      I think you’ll find that the Satanic Temple does not embrace evil. Firstly they don’t believe in the biblical Satan. Secondly, even if they did, it’s an open question as to whether Lucifer or Yahweh is the bad guy in the bible. In terms of the number of innocent people killed by each one Lucifer is actually far less evil than Yahweh, the one you worship as a “god”.

      • bumblebee8

        Well if they did not believe in the biblical satan than why are they using his long recognized likeness and symbols. I hope one day you will come out of the darkness and into the light.

        • Fergus Mason

          “if they did not believe in the biblical satan than why are they using his long recognized likeness and symbols”

          Why not? I’m British. Our national coat of arms has a unicorn in it. That doesn’t mean we believe in them.

          “I hope one day you will come out of the darkness and into the light.”

          I already did. Lucifer is the bringer of light. Yahweh is the ruler of the darkness called ignorance.

          • bumblebee8

            Call yourself what you will.

            “I already did. Lucifer is the bringer of light”

            God still loves you, will always love you. Never forget that no matter what you do. He is there loving you for all eternity.

          • Fergus Mason

            “God still loves you, will always love you.”

            But if I don’t love him back he’ll have to hurt me forever? There’s a word for that: Rape.

          • FoJC_Forever

            No. God will give you what you are seeking – a God-less existence. This existence is devoid of all Good. You will receive Eternal Damnation, if you continue to reject Salvation through Jesus (the) Christ, because it is what you desire.

          • Fergus Mason

            We all have a godless existence. The only difference is I realise it and you don’t.

      • Ukulelemike

        Yes, that’s true in what they believe. However, in the rejection of YHWH God, and the receiving of the lies of Satan, they do indeed follow after evil. God does not kill innocent people. Any young children who die as a result of God’s judgment on a city or nation, and are innocent, go to heaven-the adults, whose sins are that which causes their death, are judged for it in hell. Satan, on the other hand, is a murderer and the father of all murder and sin. You look at temporal results of sin and see God as a villain because He judges sin, but I see the eternal, and Satan drags many to hell, purposefully. He knows his end and wants to bring as many as possible with him. God on the other hand, desires to save men from their sin, while Satan desires they live on in them. One results in eternal glory, the other, in eternal death and damnation. Who is the villain now?

        • TheSootyOne

          “Any young children who die as a result of God’s judgment” – the fact that you can even type this and then apologize for your god by transferring the blame for killing children shows what a loathful religion you have.

        • Fergus Mason

          “God does not kill innocent people. Any young children who die as a result of God’s judgment on a city or nation, and are innocent…”

          Well done. That’s the most spectacular self-contradiction I’ve seen in a long time.

          “Satan, on the other hand, is a murderer”

          Who did he murder? Seems to me that, when you read the bible, it’s Yahweh and his followers who commit most of the murders.

  • The Skeptical Chymist

    Isn’t Bert’s Warehouse private property? Is there a zoning ordinance prohibiting the display of statues there? If not, there would seem to be no grounds for prohibiting this display.

    Government should not place religious displays on government owned buildings or grounds, such as schools, city parks, or county courthouses. Those places should be neutral in regard to religion, so that everyone who goes there can know that they will be treated equally under the law. The Ten Commandments should not be on display in those places. If a government (in its bad judgement) chooses to erect or permits to be erected a religious monument, it is only fitting that religious monuments for all religions should be permitted as well. And David Bullock’s opinion of what constitutes a religion is irrelevant to this issue.

    The solution to this is obvious, and really quite simple. Keep the government free of religious symbols and monuments! Government property and powers should not be used to proselytize for any religion.

    • Ukulelemike

      As a pastor, I get what you’re saying, and in a sense I agree, particularly because today, having ANYTHING of a religious nature on public property means you have to accept EVERYTHING of ANY religious nature. But one thins many people forget is that the ten commandments are prominently displayed in the Supreme Court building, as well as a statue of Moses, along with other law-giver types. So its not as though its unprecedented. Personally, I believe the ten commandments are an aspect of the old Mosaic laws of Israel, and really have no place in American Christianity. Granted, nine of the ten are repeated in the New Testament, (only the Sabbath is not, because it was specifically a sign between Israel and God), but even Jesus, when asked which was the greatest commandment, gave two, actually, which were not specifically part of the ten, though in fact were a compilation of all then: Love God with all your heart, soul mind and strength, and love your neighbor as yourselves. Maybe we should just put those two in all the government buildings.

      • Rebus Caneebus

        But one thins many people forget is that the ten commandments are prominently displayed in the Supreme Court building

        No, they aren’t. Moses is depicted holding tablets, but they’re blank.

        as well as a statue of Moses, along with other law-giver types

        Which is why it’s legal, as opposed to the OK ten commandments monument, which was alone.

        Love God with all your heart, soul mind and strength, and love your neighbor as yourselves. Maybe we should just put those two in all the government buildings

        Nope, that violates the first amendment too. The government has no business to tell people to love any gods.

        • Fergus Mason

          “The government has no business to tell people to love any gods.”

          And most of its founders, who thoroughly detested gods, understood that perfectly.

        • Lexical Cannibal

          I wonder what it would take to get a statue of Tyr up there, with Moses and the other “Law-giver types.” Tyr is considered a God of justice and legal recompense in modern Norse paganism, so I think he might fit nicely up there.

          • Fergus Mason

            “Tyr is considered a God of justice and legal recompense”

            And, like the majority of American citizens, he’s from a European background. Yahweh is a Middle Eastern import, like islam or cheap tins of stuffed vine leaves.

          • Lexical Cannibal

            Not to mention, he represents a whole slew of American values: paying debts owed, equality under the law, self-sacrifice; especially for the greater good, and a general emphasis on the order of law.

            Of course it also helps that most modern depections of him are wicked cool. (google it, I can’t post images here, it seems)

  • merkinmuffy

    There is no such religion as the “Satanic Temple”!!! This is a creation of Barry Lynn’s group! It is not a real organization! Don’t fall for this!

  • Ukulelemike

    Who will be today’s Gideon and smite the altar of the idol?

    • Fergus Mason

      Oh, you approve of criminal damage? It’s ironic that YOU think THEY are the evil ones, because it’s not them I see wanting to smash up other people’s property. Or are you some sort of communist that doesn’t believe in property rights?

      • Ukulelemike

        It’s public property, that means I own part of it. Simple.

        • Fergus Mason

          “It’s public property, that means I own part of it. Simple.”

          I think you’ll find it’s actually the property of the Satanic Temple. In any case your argument is stupid. The highways are public property, but if you decide to dig up “your” bit of I-80 I think you’ll find you’re not allowed to.

  • hpowell

    I want to join that protest! We need to stop that from being put up! Do whatever it takes to stop Satan in my home state, Detroit is already hurting we don’t need this stuff happening, and its just seems crazy to me that people worship Satan, don’t they stop and think that if Satan exist then so does God! And if God and Satan exist then so does heaven and hell!! Why would anyone choose evil over good, hate over love, lies over truth, darkness over light? who would choose hell over heaven, I pray for all those lost souls may the Lord lead them to the truth may they find good over all the evil in this world may the find light in all the darkness. And be called to the right path, the Lord does not wish anyone to burn in hell but to be called to repentance and have everlasting life!!

    • bumblebee8

      The stupidity of mankind can be overwhelming! So many are lost to the truth, and are wandering in a desert. I would love to see, if this goat-boy statue is put up, a good old fashion smiting where goat-boy is swallowed in a sink hole or destroyed by lightening. God will not be mocked.

      • Fergus Mason

        “I would love to see, if this goat-boy statue is put up, a good old fashion smiting where goat-boy is swallowed in a sink hole or destroyed by lightening.”

        If it doesn’t happen will you acknowledge that Satan is the true supreme being and Yahweh is powerless to oppose his inexorable rise?

        “God will not be mocked.”

        He’s mocked all the time. He never does anything about it. It’s almost like he doesn’t exist or something.

        • bumblebee8

          Just because this world is infested with all kinds of wickedness, do not for one second think that God does not see all and is long suffering in His patients for people to turn away from evil. That statue will not remain up for long one way or another, mark my words.

          • Fergus Mason

            “That statue will not remain up for long one way or another”

            If it is destroyed it will be because religious nuts vandalise it. That’s not divine wrath; it’s just property crime.

          • Ukulelemike

            Remember Gideon? God used a man to destroy idols and their altars. Many kings of Judah, like Asa and Hezekiah and Jehoshaphat were used of God to tear down altars and high places of false Gods. So if God uses a man to do the same here, why not?

          • Fergus Mason

            “So if God uses a man to do the same here, why not?”

            Because he’ll be arrested and charged with criminal damage. And quite rightly so.

  • K2

    You live in a secular country with freedom of religion and expression – therefore you have TONS of denominations, mormons, jehovah’s witnesses, scientology, 7th day adventists, pastafarians… and Satanists… They are citizens, they pay taxes, they vote, etc. They are in the military, navy, government. They have the same rights the “conservative” evangelical Christians do. Why don’t you go tear down the Washington monument which is an Obelisk – Egyptian symbol for the sun? What about all the Free Mason symbols and temples in Washington D.C.? What about all the pagan art in the Library of Congress with TONS of licentious nudity?

    • Ukulelemike

      You bring up a very good point: American Christians have a tendency of categorizing sin into ‘acceptable’ and ‘unacceptable’. It is hypocritical to fight one, without making demands of all. And as a pastor I admit to having done the same and repent. If we are going to do the one, we ought not let the other go undone.

      • Fergus Mason

        “It is hypocritical to fight one, without making demands of all.”

        It is indeed, and I commend you for admitting that.

  • Fergus Mason

    You worship a being who sacrificed himself to himself, so he could forgive the creatures he’d made with the ability to question rules for daring to actually question the rules.

    And you think Satanists are the bad guys?

    • Reason2012

      Questioning the rules is not the issue, Fergus. God gave us life, so we are already His. God in the person of Christ Jesus then shed His blood and gave us His life on the cross so that we can have forgiveness if we so choose. He rose again so that we might rise and live forever.

      To spit on that forgiveness and refuse to stop doing that which we know we’ll be judged for only proves how wicked we are, myself included, when we get away from the truth of God and how we deserve exactly what we demand, be it grace, or_hell.

      Live forever, Fergus.

      • Fergus Mason

        “God in the person of Christ Jesus then shed His blood and gave us His life on the cross so that we can have forgiveness if we so choose.”

        Actually he didn’t “give” his life; he only loaned it for the weekend. Why was this farce necessary in the first place though? If he wanted to give us the ability to get forgiveness why not just GIVE us it and spare us 2,000 years of bad Mel Gibson films? I mean he IS omnipotent, right?

  • Reason2012

    Here’s the crux of the issue: the satanic temple does not represent their own religion, but instead is a vile, hateful mockery of what OTHERS believe. It needs to be addressed on this point. Taking what is considered evil in the Bible (satan) then worshipping that is just nothing but vile hatred of Christianity and Christians, not a religion of it’s own, and needs to be denied for that reason.

    • Fergus Mason

      Funnily enough they say exactly the same about you. Both of you worship characters from the bible. Making Good/Evil judgements gets tricky though, because in the bible Yahweh kills several million people while Satan kills ten.

      • Reason2012

        No, if we did “the same thing”, we’d put up something that those who reject God believe, then mock it, not saying anything about God or Christ or the Ten Commandments.

        So if you believe evolution, and we put up a statue of a fish that grew arms and is giving you the thumbs up, that’s not a religion, that’s mocking what YOU believe.

        No, I don’t worship people spoken of in the Bible – I worship God/Jesus Christ alone.

        Those who don’t really believe in God in the past several decades alone have slaughtered 57+ MILLION sons/daughters, and satan is the one behind such barbarism. Let alone deceiving billions to end up in_hell with him. Your pretense at morals of those who reject God falls flat.

        Live forever, Fergus!

        • Fergus Mason

          “if we did “the same thing”, we’d put up something that those who reject God believe, then mock it”

          On you go then; I couldn’t care less. My worldview isn’t so insecure and fragile that I need to throw all my toys out the pram just because someone makes a statue I don’t like.

          • Reason2012

            No, the point is we won’t “go on” – the point is we’re NOT doing that.

            It’s not about “insecure beliefs” – it’s about the simple fact that this statue, nor the one of the fish, is not about a personal religion, but instead is about hatefully mocking someone else’s. Huge difference. Of course you can then try to pretend it’s not mocking, which only shows how dishonest those who hate Christians are.

            Live forever, Fergus!

          • Fergus Mason

            “but instead is about hatefully mocking someone else’s”

            How is it “hatefully mocking” your religion? Satan has been worshipped a lot longer than Yeshua ben Pandera has, and possibly longer than Yahweh.

            “Live forever, Fergus!”

            Ugh, no. Even the best party becomes a prison when you can never leave.

      • Homer for God

        First, for someone who doesn’t believe in both God and satan, why are you arguing for them? Second, neither God nor satan killed anyone..man does under their direction and influence. Factor that then satan has a bigger body count and it continues to grow everyday when people choose to turn their back on God.
        You are oblivious to what’s around you and that is nothing new. God’s Word (which you don’t believe but yet argue about) has been around for over 2000 years. You have been around for less than 100. Intellect does not overrule wisdom, but continue to think your better than most because of it. Most people who are that intelligent wouldn’t pick a random Christian website to spout ignorance to. They would go to an intellectual site and discuss topics there. You have obviously choose your master and I cry for your soul (yes you have one). Maybe one day, when something significant happens to you, and your life changes, you will actually do some meaningful work and see that God has never changed nor has he never stopped knocking on the door of your heart. I pray you will answer that door and accept Jesus as your Savior and join us on the new earth.
        This is the only time I will respond to you, because I know in my heart that right now satan has you firmly in his grip, and there is no point in arguing with you. God bless you and your family and have a blessed day.

        • Fergus Mason

          “You have obviously choose (sic) your master”

          I don’t have a master.

          “there is no point in arguing with you”

          Not unless you have some actual evidence that Yahweh exists.

  • Fergus Mason

    God is basically saying “I love you. Love me back or I’ll torture you.” Women often hear similar arguments, usually from a guy with a knife.

    • Reason2012

      Thank you for proving yet again how those who support the satan temple really are about a vile hatred of Christians and what they believe (Christianity). You continue to prove my point.

      Live forever, Fergus!

      • Fergus Mason

        I don’t hate Christians at all. It’s Christianity I hate.

        • All In

          You mean you hate God.

          • Fergus Mason

            “You mean you hate God.”

            No, don’t be silly. Why would I hate a fictional character?

        • hpowell

          No you hate Christ

          • Fergus Mason

            I don’t even know Chris. Who is he?

    • hpowell

      Ha yeah I think that darkness has already taken you over and posses what comes from your mouth and blinded your eyes with lies, I have been abused and I tell you they don’t say they love you they say aweful hatful thing because evil is in their hearts, I pray that you come to find the truth. Do you not have any thoughts deeper then a puddle?

      • Fergus Mason

        Amazing. That was just like writing, but made no sense at all.

        • hpowell

          Obviously it doesn’t make sense it doesn’t seem like you are capibal of understanding anything in really sad for you and I pray that that Lord reveals himself to you in a way that you may understand, and if you still refuse the truth after you clearly understand then that’s all on you buddy!

          • Fergus Mason

            Nope, still incoherent rubbish I’m afraid. Do you actually speak English?

          • hpowell

            I feel like you don’t understand me because you have so blinded by your hate for Christ that you can’t understand the truth even when it is right in your face.

          • Fergus Mason

            No. I don’t understand you because you’re practically illiterate. There’s a difference.

          • hpowell

            Its not my fault you can’t understand no one else seems to have an issue with my comments only you. Imagine that!

          • Fergus Mason

            Yes it is your fault. It’s your fault because you can’t string a sensible sentence together; you just splurge out a string of clichés.

          • hpowell

            And you feel that you do?

          • Fergus Mason

            “And you feel that you do?”

            Yes. I’m a freelance writer. People pay me to write things for them because I’m better at it than they are. Someone even paid me to write a book about renewing the church.

          • All In

            BS! I know who you are. You aren’t fooling anyone but yourself.

          • Fergus Mason

            “BS! I know who you are. You aren’t fooling anyone but yourself.”

            Google me then.

          • StereoMan

            Just like you thought I was Paul?

          • VHamer

            Fergus…you are a perfect example of the scripture that asks the question, “What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and lose his OWN soul. You are your own worse enemy…inner me.

          • Fergus Mason

            The soul is a concept invented by primitive people who didn’t know what a brain did.

          • StereoMan

            Damn, I wish I knew how to get in touch with you outside of this forum. You’ve been absolutely inspirational.

          • Fergus Mason

            Google is your friend here.

          • StereoMan

            Really? Thanks! Give me a few minutes.

    • All In

      God doesn’t say that at all. That’s just your silly view of God.

      God says, “I love you and would love for you to love me…but you don’t have to. I’m not going to force you. If you choose to reject me, I’ll grant your wish and separate you from Me.”

      The problem is that God is all things good, including love. When you choose to separate yourself from Him, you separate yourself from all of Him. Which shouldn’t be a problem if you don’t want to know or love Him.

      God calls it hell because separation from God means a separation from all things good and entering into all things evil.

      • Fergus Mason

        “If you choose to reject me, I’ll grant your wish and separate you from Me.”

        And being separated from god means, of course, being eternally roasted in a lake of molten brimstone. That still sounds an awful lot like “Strip or I’ll cut you.”

        “God calls it hell because separation from God means entering into complete evil.”

        No, the bible actually explains in excruciating detail that hell is a place where people are tortured.

        • All In

          > No, the bible actually explains in excruciating detail that hell is a place where people are tortured.

          Imagine all things evil and without any love. That is hell.

          Imagine all things good and complete love. That is God.

          He is giving you this opportunity to choose which destination you prefer.

          But there is only two choices as God doesn’t tolerate evil in heaven. So it’s an all or nothing decision.

          • Fergus Mason

            “Imagine all things evil and without any love. That is hell.”

            No, the bible says very clearly that hell is a furnace where people are tormented with fire and brimstone.

            “He is giving you this opportunity to choose which destination your prefer.”

            And a rapist is giving a woman the opportunity to choose between having surprise sex or being knifed. It’s exactly the same. “Love me or suffer” is not a free choice.

          • All In

            > No, the bible says very clearly that hell is a furnace where people are tormented with fire and brimstone.

            This description is hyperbole used to describe the seriousness of hell, not the actual science of it.

            > It’s exactly the same. “Love me or suffer” is not a free choice.

            As I said, your view of it is wrong. If you like evil rather than God, your wish will be granted. You should be happy about that.

          • Fergus Mason

            “This description is hyperbole used to describe the seriousness of hell, not the actual science of it.”

            How do you know?

            “your view of it is wrong”

            I’m going to offer you a choice of fruit. If you choose the orange I’m going to set you on fire. Now, would you like an apple or an orange?

          • All In

            > How do you know?

            A little bit of study. You are starting to sound like someone who hasn’t studied anything.

            The choice is this:

            Choose God and all He is, or don’t. It’s pretty simple.

            When you choose God, you get Him and all He is. When you don’t choose God, you get what’s left.

          • Fergus Mason

            “A little bit of study.”

            And what is the evidence that it’s hyperbole? IS there any evidence, or is it just somebody’s opinion? The bible says in multiple places, written by multiple authors, that hell is a place where people are tormented by fire. Do you have any evidence at all that it’s not meant literally?

            “When you choose God, you get Him and all He is.”

            A jealous, bigoted tyrant? No thanks. Now do you want an apple or an orange? You have a completely free choice, but remember I have a can of petrol and my trusty Zippo.

          • All In

            > A jealous, bigoted tyrant?

            Then you’ve made your choice. I hope you are happy with it.

            You and your multiple account buddy should be happy together.

        • hpowell

          Seriously, you only hear what you want to hear and only understand what you choose to understand.

  • The Lone Ranger

    Sounds to me like their a group of grown men acting like boy scouts. they said Non-theists have a religion, but without God. That’s the difference.” Just as much as we get people who think that we’re into the biblical concept of Satan, we get people who think that we’re just posing as Satanists, and not truly Satanists or whatever you would say. Non-theistic Satanism is part of modern Satanism. It’s a misconception that we fight a lot that we’re trying to dispel.” I believe all they are committed to is the desire for attention that it brings them; through the different sources of media( did you catch the name “spokesperson Lucien Greaves”) like a kid riding his bike with no hands, look Ma no hands, However like the kid they are underestimating the danger involved in their reckless behavior of rejecting Christianity they are not hurting God they’re the ones that are in real peril it’s not a game; you cannot fight God and win his word is truth. We are his witnesses in the Spirit; Satan will be cast into Hell along with the false profit and the beast and their followers conscientious or not. I warn you lest you repent of you’re sin ,Ro.10:9 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Reject this foolishness while there is still time read his word
    Numbers 23:19
    God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

    • Fergus Mason

      What’s wrong with the name Lucien Greaves?

      “you cannot fight God and win”

      Then why does he seem to need so much help? You lot want to protest about a statue because you think poor old Yahweh can’t deal with it himself; the muslims think he’s not capable of handling a few cartoons without them. For an omnipotent god he sure does find it hard to get stuff done on his own.

      • All In

        > Then why does he seem to need so much help

        All Christians have a commission to stand for God and truth.

        > For an omnipotent god he sure does find it hard to get stuff done on his own.

        Just as the Levitical priests represented God on earth during the OT days, Christians are Christ’s priests today. God doesn’t need us, but chooses to use His followers until He returns.

        While you may snub your nose at Him now (only because He allows it), you will come face to face with His Omnipotence a moment after your last breath. I’m certain you will wilt when you finally meet Him. At that time, even you will recognize how arrogant your comment is and how inappropriate.

        • Fergus Mason

          “you will come face to face with His Omnipotence a moment after your last breath.”

          How do you know?

          • All In

            Because He has already demonstrated Himself to the world and that what He says is true.

            You can choose to either believe it or not. But your choice has no bearing on the reality of God, but it does have a significant bearing on where you will spend eternity.

          • Fergus Mason

            “Because He has already demonstrated Himself to the world and that what He says is true.”

            Where’s your evidence that I’ll meet Yahweh after I die?

          • All In

            Jesus Christ rose from the dead to prove He is God and that there is life after death.

          • Fergus Mason

            “Jesus Christ rose from the dead to prove He is God and that there is life after death.”

            How do you know? Because it says so in a book? Awesome. Your train to Hogwarts will be leaving from Platform 9 3/4.

          • All In

            > How do you know? Because it says so in a book?

            The same way we know a lot about history: eye-witnesses record the events, they are verified by the historical accounts, verified by nonBiblical historians, and stand up to diligent scrutiny and investigation.

            Do your comments mean you don’t believe anything you don’t personally witness?

          • Fergus Mason

            Oh FFS

            “eye-witnesses record the events”

            There are no eyewitness accounts.

            “they are verified by the historical accounts”

            No they are not. There is not a single historical account of the death or resurrection of Yeshua ben Pandera, just the gospels. Which were written decades later.

            “verified by nonBiblical historians”

            Nope.

            “and stand up to diligent scrutiny and investigation.”

            What? You’re seriously claiming that a story about zombies walking around a Roman city stand up to diligent scrutiny?

          • All In

            > There are no eyewitness accounts.

            Matthew, John, Peter, James, Paul, all the prophets, and the multiple billions of people that know or have known God personally.

            > No they are not.

            There are plenty. You choose to deny them.

            > Which were written decades later.

            So are many autobiographies. Does that mean you don’t believe anything written decades after the events?

            > “verified by nonBiblical historians” Nope.

            Of course there are. There are at least 11 nonBiblical historians who wrote about Jesus, not to mention all of the OT events.

            Have you studied anything from a historical perspective?

            > What? You’re seriously claiming that a story about zombies walking around a Roman city stand up to diligent scrutiny?

            Can you disprove it? Until you can, all you have is denial. That’s hardly scientific.

          • Fergus Mason

            “Matthew, John, Peter, James, Paul”

            Just names. Nobody knows who wrote the books that carry those titles.

            “the multiple billions of people that know or have known God personally.”

            Did any of them get a photo of him? Otherwise it means nothing.

            “There are at least 11 nonBiblical historians who wrote about Jesus”

            No there aren’t. You’re going to name Suetonius, Tacitus, Josephus and the usual list, aren’t you? Don’t; I’ll demolish you and it will be embarrassing.

            “Can you disprove it?”

            I don’t need to disprove it. If someone says dead people got up and walked around they can be safely ignored, unless they have some VERY convincing evidence. Dead people don’t walk; they just lie there slowly decomposing.

          • All In

            > Nobody knows who wrote the books that carry those titles.

            Of course they do. Denying what has been established as history isn’t negating the established facts.

            > Don’t; I’ll demolish you and it will be embarrassing.

            Sure you will. The 11 I mentioned are renown historians. Good luck trying to discredit them. The only thing you have is denial.

            > I don’t need to disprove it.

            Yes you need to. The historical record speaks for itself. If you don’t believe the historical record, you will need to disprove it, not just deny it.

          • Fergus Mason

            “Of course they do.”

            No, they don’t. All four synoptic gospels circulated without names for decades. The names were assigned in the late 2nd century. That’s an established fact; your claim is just religious tradition.

            “The 11 I mentioned are renown historians”

            OK then; who are they?

            “The historical record speaks for itself.”

            Yes – it’s completely devoid of zombies. That means we can assume any story that involves zombies is not true, unless some very convincing evidence is presented.

          • All In

            > No, they don’t

            Nonsense. The recipients of the letters knew exactly who wrote them. There wasn’t any confusion among the early church fathers. Only skeptics question it in hopes of discrediting the NT.

            Paul’s letters are well established. Your comments show your ignorance on the subject.

            > OK then; who are they?

            Did you forget? You mentioned a few of them. Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger. Why don’t you start there.

            > it’s completely devoid of zombies.

            The problem you are having is your wooden interpretation of the Biblical text. But you already know that.

          • Fergus Mason

            “The recipients of the letters knew exactly who wrote them.”

            None of the gospels were even written until the late 1st or early 2nd centuries. There used to be dozens; four got picked for inclusion.

            “Why don’t you start there.”

            Sure. None of them mentioned Yeshua ben Pandera; they just described what Christians believe, and that’s not in dispute.

            “The problem you are having is your wooden interpretation of the Biblical text.”

            No. The problem I am having is that we KNOW, with 100% certainty, that dead people do not get up and walk around.

          • All In

            > None of the gospels were even written until the late 1st or early 2nd centuries. There used to be dozens; four got picked for inclusion.

            Complete nonsense. Mark is thought to have been written within 10 years of Christ, Paul’s first letters within 5 years of Christ, with the rest well before their deaths (most were killed prior to 66 AD). In case you hadn’t noticed, it’s impossible to write a letter after you’re dead.

            > they just described what Christians believe

            No, they mentioned Christ specifically. The historians are well known for their historical record keeping. If you are going to deny them, you’ll need to deny large parts of Roman, Jewish, and Babylonian history.

            > The problem I am having is that we KNOW, with 100% certainty, that dead people do not get up and walk around

            Another example of your incorrect understanding of the Biblical text. As I said, you are already aware of that.

            BTW, what proof do you have that God doesn’t exist? That Jesus isn’t God? That Jesus didn’t rise from the dead?

          • Lark62

            All in. You really need to read the work of christian historians.

          • Lark62

            You forgot my personal favorite Lucian of samosata. Christian historians always mention him because he mentioned christians in the mid 2nd century. For some reason they forget to quote what he actually said about christians.

            “These deluded creatures, you see, have persuaded themselves that they are immortal and will live forever, which explains the contempt of death and willing self-sacrifice so common among them. It was impressed on them too by their lawgiver that from the moment they are converted, deny the gods of Greece, worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws, they are all brothers. They take his instructions completely on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods and hold them in common ownership. So any adroit, unscrupulous fellow, who knows the world, has only to get among these simple souls and his fortune is quickly made; he plays with them.”

          • Lark62

            Don’t forget the 500 zombies who rose from the dead when jesus did.

          • All In

            Lark62 said, “Don’t forget the 500 zombies who rose from the dead when jesus did.”

            Fergus Mason said, “Yes – it’s completely devoid of zombies.”

            You forgot to change accounts again.

          • Lark62

            “You forgot to change accounts again.”

            In other words, when all else fails, lie, accuse and misrespresent.

            Sorry to disappoint you, but I’m not Fergus. To my knowledge this is the first time I’ve run across him. But I do agree with most of what he’s said here.

            And, to my knowledge, there is no disagreement on the zombies. The bible claims 501 people in Jerusalem rose from the dead one day about 2000 years ago. I’m pretty sure Fergus, myself, and every other rational person are in agreement on the veracity of that claim.

            If you have integrity, you owe me an apology.

            (Edited)

          • All In

            Sure. You are of your father the devil who is the master deceiver.

          • Lark62

            So kind.

            But I’m not the one who accused someone falsely, and then failed to retract the incorrect statement or apologize.

            Oh, the irony.

          • Lark62

            I guess we have the answer to about whether you have integrity.

            What is it about christianity that makes one achieve such amazing depths honesty and decency?

          • Homer for God

            All in. I would really cool it with the multiple account talk if i were you. I know Paul likes to post under several names and he really gets under your skin, but he nor other multiple accounts are really not worth it.
            Think about 2 things:
            1. Every proud non-believer, atheists, or lover of sin (such as the LGBT) who come to this site to specifically to try to discourage and deceive God’s followers are under one account and that’s satan’s. So the next time these guys spout nonsense about what they don’t understand, and it gets you ready to respond that.
            2. More of an add on. When you mention multiple accounts in response to the satan trollers, and you are proven wrong, they love to rejoice in your error and make fun of you and discredit your words. Don’t give them the ammunition.

            Remember we have to have on the whole armor of God the the whole time and fight back only with the Word and only do it out of love. If they don’t listen, remember what Jesus said and “wipe your feet at the door and move on” (but make sure to keep praying for them)
            You are doing a Blessed and great job here Richard. Don’t let these guys (or satan) bring you down. God Bless!!!

          • hpowell

            In that day every mouth will confess that I am the Lord

      • The Lone Ranger

        The name is similar to Lucifer grieves, could be coincidence but I doubt it. The only help God needs is a willing vessel to carry the Spirit of Christ to do his will that’s just the way he operates ; in this dispensation of time. However he has all authority if he chooses to use it. The Muslims worship a different God than the Christians that’s obvious in the Christians name, Muslims don’t believe in the deity of Christ, hence the fact is they’re antichrists. By the way so are Satanist anybody or any spirit that don’t believe in Christ is antichrist although Satan himself knows Christ is real, one of Satan’s greatest deceptions is a belief that Satan is not real. The article said they don’t believe in a biblical Satan then why oppose the biblical Ten Commandments? He is at war with Christ. He knows he’s going to lose the war with God and his time is short that’s why he has to step up his game, so to speak. The only consolation for him is to take as many souls as he can of mankind to the lake of fire with him witch is ultimately his eternal destination; see the soul never dies. The smoke of their torment will ascend forever that’s why the born again Church is suppose to be diligent in winning souls witch is made up of born again people the invisible Church made up of many different denominations, nationalities, races, you can’t tell a Christian just by looking at him. Lots of people claim to be Christian, but you must be born again it’s a supernatural experience a new creation a new creature old things are past away all things become new. You must repent of your sins believe in your heart that Christ died for you, it’s personal and that God raised him from the dead and confess with your mouth, with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Guess what that’s just the beginning a babe in Christ that’s one of the problems some Christians don’t continue to grow you have to eat a little meat with your milk the meat and milk is the word of God desire the sincere milk of the word born again means born again you have to grow you have to craw before you can walk we are now talking about the Spirit. John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. …The first time of water your mama’s water has to break born again of the Spirit of God supernatural. I know it’s a lot of information, study the Bible first four books of the New Testament you don’t have to tell anyone if you don’t want to; it don’t take that long look in to the matter for yourself you don’t have to take my word for it . But I will tell you this I lie not I am a witness to the resurrection of Christ through the new birth and God is my witness.

  • Alma Mercer

    Bla bla .. ACLU did not do a thing , neither did graves , it was the supreme courts and of course the written laws in Oklahoma that brought the monument down , stupid elected offices, did not even know the law existed , and all of them were in violation of it or ignored it , typical . as for Graves this monument is yet to be seen , and I would bet it does not exist , so dont get your christian tails in a whimsical….

  • pslinger

    “The statue will serve as a beacon calling for compassion and empathy among all living creatures”
    Sorry but Satan is not exactly a shining example of compassion and empathy.

    • All In

      Exactly! Satan is the epitome of everything deceptive, destructive, and evil.

    • Percy

      Your god has killed millions of innocent people including babies and also animals. Satan has killed about 10. Who is the evil one again?

      • All In

        You can’t be serious?!

        • Fergus Mason

          Haven’t you read the bible? It’s all there.

          • All In

            Take a look at the last 100 years. You’ll see that there were more deaths caused by atheist regimes than all the religious wars throughout the entirety of history.

          • Fergus Mason

            So what? None of those deaths were caused by atheism. Hitler was catholic but we don’t talk about the catholic regime or Catholic Germany, do we? We call it Nazi Germany because that’s what motivated it.

          • All In

            > None of those deaths were caused by atheism.

            Your denial continues to be breathtaking.

          • Lark62

            Genocidal dictators wanting absolute power will use any tool available. Religion, non religion, anything.

            The common thread is thought police. Believe what you’re told to believe or face prison or death.

            Free thought is the opposite. Believe what you want, but don’t use govt to advance your beliefs.

          • All In

            Look up Russian Empire early 1900s. You can start with that.

          • Lark62

            Good example. And look at the orthodox christian monarchy they replaced. Also ISIS and the Spanish inquisition. The common thread is not a particular belief system, but the use of government-like authority to demand that everyone subscribe to the belief system imposed by those in power.

            On the other hand, secular democracies that value free speech tend to be peaceful.

          • All In

            It was atheist regimes that killed millions upon millions of people in the last 100 years. It’s the Christian democracies that are the best countries in which to live.

          • Lark62

            Secular democracies.

          • All In

            No, atheist regimes. Denying the truth doesn’t negate it.

          • Lark62

            Hitler was not an atheist. Atheists were specifically excluded from the SS. The slogan engraved on military belt buckles was “God with Us” (in german.)

            Russia turned worship of the state into a religion, complete with supernatural elements.

            The common thread is thought police. Think about it rather than blindly hating on atheists. Then you will understand why we oppose any action by government which promotes any “one true religion.”

            Denying the truth doesn’t negate it.

          • Anton Viljoen

            Fergus … I have read many of your mails .. and boy , do you beat about the bush !! think you are a master deceiver … you talking yourself into an hole bro !! you remind me about this story …>> One evening an
            old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people. He said, “My son, the battle is between 2
            “wolves” inside us all.
            One is Evil. It is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret,
            greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.

            The other is Good. It is joy,faith , peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, the fear of God .,kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.”
            The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather:
            “Which wolf wins?”

            The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one you feed.”

          • Fergus Mason

            “One is Evil. It is anger, envy, jealousy…”

            Remind me again, who said “I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God”

            By your own definition the being you worship is evil. Now who’s talked themselves into a hole?

          • Anton Viljoen

            The Gospel , in Spirit and Truth is a message that comforts the disturbed and disturbs the comfortable” …. go and inspect what God means by Him being jealous . …. you are in bondage with all your words and sayings … you hype yourself up as an important soul , but you burning your heart …..

          • Fergus Mason

            You’re the one who’s in bondage, to an ancient Palestinian death cult that teaches people to feel worthless and guilty. Screw humility; be the best person you can and be proud of what you’ve achieved. Your religion glories in ignorance and self-loathing.

          • Anton Viljoen

            And the word of the Lord came
            to all, saying, 3 “Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their hearts, and have put the stumbling-block of their
            crookedness before their face. Should I let them inquire of Me at all?…. take your rifle Fergus , get in a tank and drive off into the sunset …. you think you are just to wise and question the Bible on all fronts

          • Fergus Mason

            The fact you can do nothing but quote the bible at me says it all. You have no argument.

          • Anton Viljoen

            I don’t need an ignorant man’s argument … you have just given the answer yourself …. the Bible says it all . !! I only need one fact and that’s the word of God . Please note that I am not blaming the devil for every sin we commit. The fact is, selfishness and self-indulgence, which produce sin, are basic instincts of our fallen nature. At the same time, let us also discern the unique warfare of our times. Our world has been flooded with hyper-sexuality, greed and the biggest fact self righteousness and excess. . We deceive ourselves if we think we can accommodate an immoral
            imagination and it not contaminate how we act out our lives.
            You,see, an unguarded mind that willfully harbors darkness will have spiritual predators cultivating and probing our moral weaknesses. Indeed, through modern technology, an alternate reality — a fantasy world created by our mind’s imagination — can be created
            and accessed by the demonic realm.
            There is much within the fallen human nature
            that can be exploited and plundered for evil. When we do not guard our hearts , like you Mr. Fergus and avoid what is sinful, this fantasy realm unfolds into darkness, leaving our thought-processes open and
            unprotected against demons that
            build strongholds in the human soul.
            Listen well: what entertains us actually enters
            us. corrupting thoughts, you are opening
            your soul to hell. You must confront
            this battle honestly,
            Western culture underscores the increasing influence of this ruler of darkness. Indeed, compare our
            world today with cultural standards of just fifty years ago and it’s easy to see that Western civilization is under siege.
            We are fighting the “harlotry”
            and “witchcraft” of Jezebel. Those who have been defeated by this spirit often feel they were
            drugged by their own passions……. like your own “”clever”” thoughts and actions .

          • Fergus Mason

            “We are fighting the “harlotry”
            and “witchcraft” of Jezebel.”

            No. We’re fighting narrow-minded religious bigots who hate women, gays and anyone who’s having a good time. Right now their public face is ISIS, but get past the beards and they’re not really that different from the likes of you.

          • Anton Viljoen

            think isis would be head you with a smile … get over all this hate of women , gays , religious bigots and what more …The Holy Spirit has visited me … and thats not a dream … I am involved with His Worship …. and I have this funny gut feeling you have def, not been there or experienced it … so make a change man … stop moaning about gays … their pride will surely get fried !!!!!

          • Fergus Mason

            ISIS would certainly behead me with a smile, because they’re fanatics driven by their outdated and bigoted religious beliefs. Just like you.

          • Anton Viljoen

            get a grip on something man . I have the fear of the Lord …. you worried about fanatics and other jungle mumble … do something the impresses the Lord .

          • Fergus Mason

            “I have the fear of the Lord”

            You can walk away from that, you know. You don’t have to be frightened any more. Throw off your superstitions and be free.

          • Anton Viljoen

            jip .. satan works well with in you … you telling me to walk away and be free … those words are the formula of satan … be free, be happy… do what thy wilt !!! you seriously limited to your poor worldly knowledge … and your mail is full of bad taste .

          • Fergus Mason

            “those words are the formula of satan … be free, be happy… do what thy (sic) wilt !!!”

            Whereas the formula of Yahweh is “be enslaved, be miserable, OBEY ME YOU VILE SINNERS!!!” I know what I prefer.

          • Anton Viljoen

            Obviously you stupid stupid piece of flesh !! You will bend your knees before Him ..God is not mocked .

          • Fergus Mason

            “You will bend your knees before Him”

            No. I wouldn’t even if he existed, which he doesn’t.

            “God is not mocked”

            Yes he is. Daily, by millions of people. Your imaginary god is just the brutal, bigoted patriarch of a backwards tribe of desert nomads, except Godzilla-sized and able to do magic tricks. You worship the god of a Middle Eastern dustbowl.

          • Anton Viljoen

            mmmm …. think you need a .50 to the head …

          • Fergus Mason

            “think you need a .50 to the head”

            Yeah, ISIS want to kill everyone who disagrees with them too. It’s a common symptom among vicious religious bigots.

          • Anton Viljoen

            You are one of the Trophies of hell .

          • Fergus Mason

            You’re a religious maniac.

          • Anton Viljoen

            oh ! you so jealous ! yea .. its like good good red wine. Knowing sensing hearing feeling that Jesus is very close .

          • Fergus Mason

            Jesus is dead. The Romans killed him, remember?

          • Anton Viljoen

            yea !! but ok send me your email address .

          • Fergus Mason

            No. If you want it you can find it. If you find it you can email me.

          • Anton Viljoen

            you think I am going to run after you ? get lost !! …yes and you still stay stupid …because Jesus will return and kick your arse because you seek your own desires and pleasures of this world … all will fall and fail , but the Kingdom will stand ….. forever

          • Fergus Mason

            “you think I am going to run after you ? get lost !!”

            I couldn’t care less if you run after me or not; if I wanted something to follow me around and yap I’d get a dog. But you asked for my email address and I told you to get it yourself. It’s not like I’m hard to find.

            “Jesus will return and kick your arse”

            Jesus is dead. Get over it.

            “because you seek your own desires and pleasures of this world”

            Well sure. I don’t have any other worlds to seek the pleasures of, and I’d rather follow my own desires than those of some priest who tells me I’m a miserable sinner.

    • Fergus Mason

      “Satan is not exactly a shining example of compassion and empathy.”

      He’s much more of one than Yahweh is.

      • All In

        You should be happy with your choice, then. So stop your complaining. Maybe you should also spend your time on satanist discussions where you’ll be much happier.

        • Fergus Mason

          I am happy with my choice. What I’m complaining about is how Christians feel entitled to force THEIR choice on everyone else. Your religion has no more right to be represented in public buildings than anyone else’s does.

          • All In

            Why are you here trying to force your opinion on Christians? Aren’t you being a hypocrite?

            Of course you are. Your behaviors don’t change no matter what you call yourself.

          • Fergus Mason

            “Why are you here trying to force your opinion on Christians?”

            If you want religious opinions to be in the public space then you get to hear mine. If you keep yours private so will I.

          • All In

            It looks like the word hypocrite is lost on you. But you’ve heard it many times before. This is nothing new for you.

          • Fergus Mason

            If it’s OK for Christians to push their religious beliefs on people then it’s also OK for non-Christians to do it.

          • All In

            You said, “What I’m complaining about is how Christians feel entitled to force THEIR choice on everyone else. ”

            Then you said, “If it’s OK for Christians to push their religious beliefs on people then it’s also OK for non-Christians to do it.”

            Do you know what hypocrite means?

          • Lark62

            Expecting everyone to be held to the same standard is not hypocrisy. You might want to check out a dictionary.

          • StereoMan

            He has some kind of aversion to the dictionary. I’ve recommended he look at the definition of homosexuality so many times I’ve lost count, and he insists it is a behavior when it is an attraction.

          • Lark62

            If homosexuality is an action, does that likewise mean some christians are only straight for five minutes every couple weeks or so?

            [Edited for clarity]

          • StereoMan

            When he doesn’t have facts, he turns to making up his own. Doesn’t want to be troubled by a trivial thing like the dictionary.

          • Lark62

            I’m here because christians are trying to use govt property to promote one religion to the exclusion of others in violation of the Constitution of the United States of America.

            That you are also violating jesus’ command to treat others as you would want to be treated and the part of the 10 commandments that prohibits graven images is your business.

          • StereoMan

            No, Richard. Behaviors don’t equal actions. As an example, there are homosexuals who remain celibate. This disproves your assertion that homosexuality is a behavior, and the dictionary also confirms this.

      • pslinger

        The Bible calls him “Deceiver.” Obviously he is quite successful at that with you.

        • Fergus Mason

          The bible would call him that, wouldn’t it? You’re making a decision based entirely on one side’s propaganda.

  • dc6289

    It looks like the Pagan God called The Horned God, which represents the male counter part of the Goddess. Which represents nature, sexuality, and the wildness. Nothing really evil about it.

    • All In

      The word ‘satanic’ might be a tip for you. Satan represents all things evil, including deception…which looks like it worked in your case.

  • Jane Jessee

    Next they will want to remove the 10 Commandments from the Supreme Court

    • Lark62

      The image of Moses and the 10 commandments at the Supreme Court is presented equally with many other ancient law givers. Context matters.

  • Fergus Mason

    “I think your are blasphemy.”

    So what? Blasphemy is a victimless crime.

    “Please, ask God to forgive you.”

    No.

  • Eight

    LOL! They can’t get away with that! Freedom of Religion in American means Freedom to be CHRISTIAN! All other blasphemers to the word and will of GOD will be stoned into submission, then BURNED for their sins!!

    Freedom of Religion indeed.

    • Jim H

      Jefferson and Paine just rolled over in their graves.

      • Lark62

        I really couldn’t tell if that was sarcasm. Scary if it’s serious.

        • Jim H

          I would have once assumed sarcasm, nowadays I’m not so sure.

    • Ken Campbell

      I suggest you add a disclaimer showing the potential for Poe’s Law

  • Dave_L

    Who created Satan? Who keeps him alive? Who will destroy him when his purpose is complete?

    • Fergus Mason

      “Who created Satan?”

      Satan’s not real.

      • Dave_L

        OKaaay, we have one answer…anymore?

      • All In

        Can you prove your assertion?

        • Fergus Mason

          “Can you prove your assertion?”

          He’s just a character in a story.

          • All In

            That’s not proof, but just another assertion. I’ll take that to mean you can’t, and therefore, are making things up.

            Such is the life of a non believer: denial and fabrication to support the denial.

          • Fergus Mason

            “I’ll take that to mean you can’t, and therefore, are making things up.”

            Actually the burden of proof is on you, not me. If someone’s claiming something exists it’s them that has to provide evidence; unless they can do so a presumption of non-existence wins by default.

            Got any evidence that either Satan or Yahweh exist?

          • All In

            > Actually the burden of proof is on you, not me

            You said satan is not real, that means you have to prove your assertion. But since you haven’t, that means you can’t. My previous comment stands.

          • Fergus Mason

            “You said satan is not real, that means you have to prove your assertion.”

            No, it doesn’t, for a reason that should be extremely obvious. People who say that fairies, leprechauns, werewolves, pixies, vampires, lake monsters, incubi, bigfoot, elves and zombies don’t exist are not required to prove anything, because there is no evidence that any of these things actually DO exist; they’re just mythical characters. Exactly the same applies to Satan. There is no evidence he exists, so it’s up to those who believe in him to prove he does. Otherwise he can be dismissed as fictional.

      • Dave_L

        Who created you?

        • Fergus Mason

          “Who created you?”

          My parents, of course.

          • Dave_L

            And???? who created your family tree?

          • Fergus Mason

            “who created your family tree?”

            I’m British. We don’t generally bother with those. You should speak to my girlfriend; she can trace her family back to Plymouth Rock.

          • Dave_L

            I suppose a non-answer is as good as any coming from an unbeliever….

        • Lark62

          Pick up a reliable book on evolution.

          • Dave_L

            so, the “effect” caused itself? Pick up a book on science.

          • Lark62

            “Why Evolution is True” by Jerry Coyne is one of the best. I also like “Your Inner Fish” by Shubin and “The Story of Earth” by Hazen

    • Lark62

      Satan was created by the same authors of myth that created yahweh.

      • Dave_L

        “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.” (Psalm 53:1, KJV 1900)

        Definition of Fool per original languages:

        pertaining to lacking understanding or even the capacity for understanding, implying a willful moral insolence and impudence and disobedience to the law of God (Dt 32:6, 21; Ps 74:18; Eze 13:3+)

        Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : Hebrew (Old Testament).

        • Lark62

          MATTHEW 5:22 (KJV)

          22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

          That is from your rule book, not mine.

          • Dave_L

            God, not me, calls atheists fools. Besides, your Matthew reference is about anger as being a sinful motive. Be careful not to become angry, it is poison.

  • Michael A.

    There is no reason to debate the words of God with unbelievers, for the word of God is understood through the spirit not man’s intelect and what they think it means, the word of the lord says: 1 corinthians 3-19 wisdom of the world is foolishness to the Lord an God catches the world wisdom in it’s craftiness.

    • Fergus Mason

      “the word of God is understood through the spirit not man’s intelect”

      Does that even mean anything?

  • Theresa Easley

    What a bunch of whackos. Maybe someone will drive into their Satan statue.

    • Fergus Mason

      “Maybe someone will drive into their Satan statue.”

      If it falls on their car and crushes them to death will you acknowledge the power of Satan, and abandon your false worship of the sheep saviour?

    • Lark62

      A christian drove into the 10 commandments.

  • Ayjayar

    So, the battle has finally been joined: Satanists vs. Christians!
    They want this statue of this goat-headed satan installed right next to the 10 Commandments tablets at the Oklahoma State capitol, and provided w/ a chair ” where people of all ages may sit on the lap of Satan for inspiration and contemplation,” acc to its sponsors.
    Unfortunately, this is how the spiritual battle will play out, starting w/ same-sex marriage…

    • Lark62

      If you don’t want other religions to put statues and monuments on govt property, don’t put christian monuments on govt land.

      Quite simple.

      • Ayjayar

        I thought we were talking here about bible verses that you have a hard time understanding?!
        Anyway, it’s not what I “want” but what your NewYork-based Temple of Satan wants – they want their goat-headed satan statue to sit prominently w/ the 10 Commandments tablets on the state capitol of Oklahoma, right?

        My question to you is:

        Do you want your goat-headed satanic statue sitting on government land, too? Remember, there are already 52 other “expressive monuments” that already sits on that plot of land who have an “historical expression,” acc. to 7th District Court judge Thomas Prince? Does your favored satanic statue (now still being made) have a “historical expression?” How old is your statue? ONe week?

        • Lark62

          It isn’t my statue.

          Reading up the thread, I get to your post about satanists v. christians, which isn’t about bible verses.

          I don’t know about 52 other expressive monuments. Presumably they are not religious or the Oklahoma Supreme Court would have rejected them too.

          If christians want to use govt property or authority to promote their favored religion, then they better get ready to welcome other religious viewpoints.

          • Ayjayar

            We did talk about bible verses, until you shifted to another topic. Anyway, if it isn’t your statue, you seem to support its installation at the Oklahoma capitol site, which makes you a sort of a satanist in the same manner that I am a Christian and therefore oppose it. Is this a fair assessment, or do you wish to self-categorize yourself for our elucidation?
            You also mentioned you know nothing about the 52 expressive monuments, yet can presume to claim the OK supreme court did not reject them. Is this a fact? Do you have personal knowledge of the decision of the court, or are you just speculating?
            Again, it’s not what Christians “want” in order to “promote” their “favored religion” (Note: we never “force” our faith on anybody; people come to the full knowledge of the saving grace of Jesus Christ, and freely embrace it).
            I believe the article centers on the protest of a group of pastors on the plan to install the satanist statue right next to the 10 Commandments. Now, it that isn’t blatant provocation and unbridled hypocrisy on the part of the satanists, I don’t what it is! Ignorance, maybe….
            Why don’t they start with New York first, where their satanic temple is located? Whazzamater, they can’t get ENOUGH ATTENTION??
            Jesus taught to turn the other cheek and forgive one’s enemies 7×7. However, he also modeled the irate holy man using a painful whip to cleanse his Father’s House of desecrators. I wouldn’t want to be in his way when he does that….

          • Ayjayar

            We did talk about bible verses, until you shifted to another topic. Anyway, if it isn’t your statue, you seem to support its installation at the Oklahoma capitol site, which makes you a sort of a satanist in the same manner that I am a Christian and therefore oppose it. Is this a fair assessment, or do you wish to self-categorize yourself for our elucidation?

            You also mentioned you know nothing about the 52 expressive monuments, yet can presume to claim the OK supreme court did not reject them. Is this a fact? Do you have personal knowledge of the decision of the court, or are you just speculating?

            Again, it’s not what Christians “want” in order to “promote” their “favored religion” (Note: we never “force” our faith on anybody; people come to the full knowledge of the saving grace of Jesus Christ, and freely embrace it).

            I believe the article centers on the protest of a group of pastors on the plan to install the satanist statue right next to the 10 Commandments. Now, it that isn’t blatant provocation and unbridled hypocrisy on the part of the satanists, I don’t what it is! Ignorance, maybe….

            Why don’t they start with New York first, where their satanic temple is located? Whazzamater, they can’t get ENOUGH ATTENTION??

            Jesus taught to turn the other cheek and forgive one’s enemies 7×7. However, he also modeled the irate holy man using a painful whip to cleanse his Father’s House of desecrators. I wouldn’t want to be in his way when he does that.

          • Lark62

            Can you undetstand? Our shared secular government is not your church.8hj

          • Ayjayar

            ‘8hj’ to you also(whatever that means!)…. You haven’t answered any of my questions, what or who you are. You seem to be pretty clear about “my church.” What about YOUR church?

          • Lark62

            8hj means I was typing on the train with a dying phone battery and I have fat fingers.

            In other words. Oops. It’s meaningless.

          • Ayjayar

            Okay. Have a nice, safe trip. God bless!

          • Lark62

            I am an atheist. This means I do not believe in anything supernatural. I am a humanist, which means I value empathy and compassion. I find the Satanic Temple hilarious, and I support their efforts to keep religious icons off of government property. I’ve also read their 7 tenets, which are all about personal responsibility and mutual respect and actually contain little that christians would object to.

            I was a christian for about 35 years. I’ve read the bible and know all the standard christian teaching.

            I am in awe of the Constitution. It amazes me that its authors got so much right.

            I truly respect the first amendment. The combination of government authority and religious belief is horrific. I truly do not want the government to promote any religious viewpoint, even and including atheism. Thought police leads to despots and genocide. Christian monuments and flags on government property may seem like a small thing, but it is claiming our shared secular government for one flavor of christianity, and this is really dangerous. Use of govt property, resources or authority to promote religion is against the Constitution.

            Christian branding on private property doesn’t bother me in the least. I will stand with you and defend any attempt to silence personal religious speech.

      • Ayjayar

        I thought we were talking here about bible verses that you have a hard time understanding?!

        Anyway, it’s not what I “want” but what your NewYork-based Temple of Satan wants – they want their goat-headed satan statue to sit prominently w/ the 10 Commandments tablets on the state capitol of Oklahoma, right?

        My question to you is:

        Do you want your goat-headed satanic statue sitting on government land, too? Remember, there are already 52 other “expressive monuments” that already sits on that plot of land who have an “historical expression,” acc. to 7th District Court judge Thomas Prince. Does your favored satanic statue (now still being made) have a “historical expression?” How old is your statue? ONe week?

        • Lark62

          The 10 Commandments is a religious text instructing people which god to worship, how to worship it and how to show respect to it. The govt has no business telling me which god to worship.

          If christians want to put this monument on govt property, then I want it to be accompanied by monuments to as many religions as possible. I would prefer that no one use govt property to promote their religion. But its either no one or everyone.

  • Fergus Mason

    “Your comments sounds like you acknowledged some parts of the bible that are reasonable to you”

    Other books I dislike that have reasonable parts:

    – 50 Shades of Gray

    – Capital in the 21st century

    – Das Kapital

    – The koran

    – Mein Kampf

    – Gone with the Wind

    All bloody awful books of course, but they DO have reasonable parts.

    “I will advice you to go to a bible believing church”

    No. I’m done with religion unless someone can show me convincing evidence that any of it’s real.

    • sebastian

      Not to worry. God will….

      • Fergus Mason

        How do you know?

        God has never said anything to me or showed me any sign. I don’t believe he’s ever showed ANYONE any sign, or ever will. And has anyone else noticed how reports of miracles seem to have died down since the invention of the digital camera? If god’s doing stuff every day I’d expect there to be lots of videos by now, so where are they? Or is your god shy?

        • wandakate

          NO, he’s not shy by any means, He’s loving, fair, and very just. He loves the sinners, but He hates their sins.
          I had total cardiac arrest back in 2001 caused from stress and I died. The hospital has no idea why I lived after I died, but I did. It was a modern day miracle. Nobody took pictures of me being dead with the flat line on the monitor but I wish they would have, or when I came back from death, nobody was there with a camera but I wish they had of been. I have been dead and now I live, why? Because of HIM, that’s why. They told me “there is no medical reason why you lived through that “code blue” episode. We “do not know why”. I told them afterwards that it wasn’t my time to go and they were amazed at the fact that I was alive, when I was supposed to be dead. I got a pacemaker after that and now have my 2nd one. They only last 8-11 yrs. so I just got my new one a few years ago. So GOD is doing stuff as you say. Would you like to see my scar and feel the pacer in my body?. That is my miracle among others.

          • Fergus Mason

            “I had total cardiac arrest back in 2001 caused from stress and I died.”

            So did I, in 2013.

            “The hospital has no idea why I lived after I died”

            Defibrillation.

          • wandakate

            Many people have Atrial Fibrillation and don’t die. My mother had heart palpitations a lot but she didn’t die from it.
            So it happened to you and you’re living now, meaning that GOD gave you another chance at life just like He did me.
            Hopefully you realize that LIFE and BREATH come from GOD only. We don’t have any say-so about it. When He is ready for us to die and not return we will and there won’t be anything at all that you or I will be able to do about that. He gives us life and He also takes it away. It’s not US that’s all powerful but Him. Do you believe that?

          • Fergus Mason

            “So it happened to you and you’re living now, meaning that GOD gave you another chance at life”

            No, it means that before my brain started to die of oxygen deprivation someone stuck two electrodes on my chest and pulled a trigger.

            “It’s not US that’s all powerful but Him. Do you believe that?”

            No. We are not all-powerful either. But your god can’t restart a stopped heart. 10,000 volts can.

          • wandakate

            SURPRISE, SURPRISE, SURPRISE FOR YOU Fergus Mason…Believe it or not I “DID NOT” HAVE THE ELECTRODES ON MY CHEST, I didn’t get those 10,000 volts either. NOPE…That is exactly why they didn’t know why I was alive. They had sent a man out to get the machine which was actually in the very next room to where I was, and just as he was coming through the door I WAS ALIVE -I LIVED…right from that minute on and they NEVER touched me with the machine.
            SO, the bottom line here is with all due respect, You don’t know what you’re talking about!
            GOD gives life, and He takes it away for a reason, and He is able to give it back again ( I AM PROOF OF THAT). The people in the room where I was were astonished, they were totally amazed at that.
            I was told that had NEVER happened to anyone before in that particular hospital in Florida where it happened, and that I was the first one and that was why it made no sense to them.
            Apparently they were too concerned with what medical technology could do and not what GOD could do. You have a lot in common with them.

          • Fergus Mason

            But almost everyone who has a cardiac arrest and doesn’t get defibrillated dies. Why? Why doesn’t your god save ALL of them? Does he roll a handful of dice and only save them if he gets shock-six?

          • wandakate

            That is a 64 thousand dollar question and a good one, and my guess would be because He knows who belongs to Him sincerely and who doesn’t. He knows who has a desire to live and bring Him glory and the ones who don’t. Since He is all powerful and He is able to do anything anytime anywhere, then He did that for me. I am now grateful, and very appreciative of that. He has give me another chance at life which is even better than before. He has helped me in more ways than I have space or gigabytes to tell you about. I have written 5 books since that episode. I have brought glory to His name and am witnessing and testifying at every chance I get and some people heed the advise and apply it to their lives, for which I am grateful.
            It has a purpose for those that are willing to do his commands. He’s not rolling any dice…save your breath. I just happen to be one of the ones that was blessed beyond measure.

    • wandakate

      I’m not going to any of them either as most don’t even have the truth. It’s not “religion” though that we should seek, but a relationship with JESUS. He wants us to know him, and seek and search for Him with all our might and He will show Himself to us. He’s just waiting on you to show some interest and open up your heart. As for the religion part we don’t need that, we need JESUS…
      Churches are full of sinners and hypocrites too.
      As for a showing you evidence that any of it is real, try breathing…that’s real. GOD breathed the breath of life into Adam and Adam became a living soul (person). See, it’s the breath of life that you get when you’re born and then when you die GOD takes it away and you are then without breath which equals life.
      Try seeing the wind. You can’t see the wind. You can hear it and feel it but you DO NOT see the wind. GOD is like the wind. We can feel Him and we can hear that inner voice prompting us to do things but we DO NOT physically see GOD. One day we will see JESUS when He appears in the clouds of heaven (at His next appearing) but right now we don’t see him b/c he’s like the wind. However, the wind is still there, it’s still real and so is GOD. GOD is still there and He’s still real. Just b/c you don’t see Him doesn’t mean He’s not real. Don’t give up, remember as you said, you only have a short time to get it done, then it’s over and eternity lies just ahead, ready or not.

      • Fergus Mason

        The wind is moving air. We can measure it scientifically. We even know why it happens: Air moving from high pressure areas to low pressure ones. Your god cannot be detected or measured in any way. Therefore there is no reason to believe it’s real.

        • wandakate

          I am living and you are living and that’s all the evidence that I need. I’m not stubborn and hard headed like some people. I know when something is right and when it’s not.

          • Fergus Mason

            “I am living and you are living and that’s all the evidence that I need.”

            But it’s not evidence of your god. It’s evidence that modern medicine can restart a stopped heart. Tell me, why would your god have saved an atheist like me but let millions of Christians – in the west before the invention of the defibrillator, and in poorer countries today – just die? Why did your god never do anything about diseases that kill millions of children but can now be prevented with a vaccine or treated with a simple dose of antibiotics? Why is it that your god NEVER does ANYTHING for the sick until science hands him the tools to do it with? Could it be that he doesn’t exist?

          • wandakate

            Of course you don’t believe in any of the things that He has done or any of the miracles that He did perform. He got all the people through the water by parting the Red Sea and Pharaoh and all his men perished in the water. He raised the dead (think about Lazarus), He cause the blind to see, He healed the sick, he cause the fishermen to catch fish where there had been no fish to catch, he fed the multitudes of people over 5,000 of them with fish and bread as He prayed over it to GOD the FATHER in heaven. JESUS did many many miracles and you don’t believe.
            If you don’t after all that and you don’t with what I have told you then chances are that you never will. I have heard of atheist that now believe in GOD. It’s actually harder to not believe than it is to believe.
            But, it’s your choice. I can’t convince you otherwise, so I guess I’ll have to leave you to your own fate of which you most likely will be sorry when it’s all over.
            People like you wouldn’t be happy in the Kingdom of GOD, so GOD created hell for all of those people who don’t believe in Him or His coming Kingdom on earth.

          • Fergus Mason

            “He got all the people through the water by parting the Red Sea and Pharaoh and
            all his men perished in the water.”

            What Pharaoh? Because Egyptian records don’t mention anything like that.

            “JESUS did many many miracles and you don’t believe.”

            Nope, not at all.

            “It’s actually harder to not believe than it is to believe”

            I can assure you that it really, really isn’t.

            “People like you wouldn’t be happy in the Kingdom of GOD, so GOD created hell”

            That was a bit dickish of him, don’t you think? I mean he could have created a decent hard rock bar for us instead. It would have kept us away from all you preachy types and saved a fortune on brimstone.

          • wandakate

            You are so right, it doesn’t do any good to try to help people like you who are so eternally lost. But, there will be a judgment day and you’re gonna be there standing

          • Fergus Mason

            At least I’ll be standing, and not grovelling on my knees in pathetic, abject submission.

  • Sonia Ewers

    It will be broken by no human hand and will bow to the 10 Commandments (God).

    • Lark62

      I’m waiting.

  • Jim H

    The goat headed Baphomet isn’t supposed to be to be the Christian Devil/Satan. It was a symbol of ancient Alchemists and represented Nature and nature’s God being a Combination & Balance of Male andFemale forces, light and darkness, moisture and dryness, etc.

    They Satanists adopted the symbol, and apparently modified it by removing its obvious female aspects (breasts). I’m sure they know it was not intended to be Satan, but they know it riles Christians up, which is their primary objectives. It seems to be working.

    • Lark62

      If you don’t want other religions to use govt property to promote their religion, then don’t use govt property to promote your religion.

      • Jim H

        I agree with you. I also think the Satanists are getting exactly the reaction they are looking for.

        • Lark62

          I think my post belonged someplace else. Oh well, it can’t be said too often.

          Yes. The Sstanic Temple is quite effective. Their coloring book is very nice and has a positive message, but ends in school bible distributions faster than anything on the planet.

  • sebastian

    Don’t bother arguing with fools….. Only God can open their eyes, and He will.

  • Grant Oyovwe

    @Fergus Mason.Jesus is the same yesterday and forever, the unchangeable changer,the Lord of Host, Kings of kings,the beginning and the end, the all sufficient God, the God of all flesh and spirit,the covenant keeping God,He is the LORD of ALL, the lover of your soul… irrespective of what you believe. JESUS LOVES YOU.

  • Welle Blue

    What i’m seeing —-> (That statue) Satan deceived the first people (Adam and Eve) because of envy (jealousy). ONE thing MY Opinion ——–> burn to the ground

  • The Lone Ranger

    thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick,
    thou art covered with fatness;
    then he forsook God which made him,
    and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
    16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods,
    with abominations provoked they him to anger.
    17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God;
    to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up,
    whom your fathers feared not.
    18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful,
    and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
    19 And when the Lord saw it, he abhorred them,
    because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.
    20 And he said, I will hide my face from them,
    I will see what their end shall be:
    for they are a very froward generation,
    children in whom is no faith.
    21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God;
    they have provoked me to anger with their vanities:
    and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people;
    I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

  • LAURA KEY

    The star on the forehead in the article picture is wrong. An upside down star is correct for this form of ideology.

    By placing the star in the article photo “upright” on the forehead of the
    beast, they are defaming the meaning of the star. Yes, it has meaning.
    It should be upside down. I’m certain, their intent was to confuse the
    public. Or…. perhaps, they (the ones who used this photo in the article) are
    just ignorant of mythological symbols.

  • Crashaxe

    Pray for 1 Samuel 5:2-4
    When the Philistines took the ark of God, they brought it into the house of Dagon, and set it by Dagon.
    3
    And when they of Ashdod arose early on the morrow, behold, Dagon was
    fallen upon his face to the earth before the ark of the LORD. And they
    took Dagon, and set him in his place again.
    4
    And when they arose early on the morrow morning, behold, Dagon was
    fallen upon his face to the ground before the ark of the LORD; and the
    head of Dagon and both the palms of his hands were cut off upon the
    threshold; only the stump of Dagon was left to him.
    Praise the Lord!

  • Ayjayar

    Dear Editor:

    My final reply to Lark62, has been put on hold. I will NOT INSIST if you do not publish same, but just the same, pls review it and see it it’s worth publishing. I have deleted it as a post until your further notice. thank you….

    • Lark62

      Been there. The moderators here are actually pretty good about allowing different opinions, but I’ve had a couple comments removed that I thought were okay. It happens. I don’t envy them. It’s a thankless job.

      I enjoyed our discussions.

      And to the moderators, thanks even when I don’t agree. You keep very spirited discussions here relatively polite. Thanks

      • Ayjayar

        Hahah! Lucky you… Me, I’ve opted out of this “christiannews” site. Bye!

  • Kena

    A sledgehammer would soon fix that abomination

  • http://www.bibleversusconstitution.org/ Ted R. Weiland

    It would be time much better spent if they were to all join in exposing the genesis for this statue.

    Clue: There were no such statues in 17th-century America whose governments of, by, and for God were established upon His unchanging morality as reflected in His commandments, statutes, and judgments, beginning with the First Commandment.

    When the late 18th-century founders replaced the First Commandment (found intact in some of the 17th-century Colonial Constitutions) with the First Amendment’s First Commandment-violating Free Exercise Clause, America was quickly transformed from what, in the 1600s, was a predominantly monotheistic Christian nation (a united nation under one God, Yahweh) into arguably the most polytheistic nation to exist (a divided nation under many god, including Allah and Satan).

    It’s one thing to allow for individual choice to believe or not to believe, something impossible to legislate, to begin with. It’s another matter altogether for government to enable polytheism to thrive in our nation, an unequivocal violation of the First Commandment.

    For more, see online Chapter 11 “Amendment 1: Government-Sanctioned Polytheism” of “Bible Law vs. United States Constitution: The Christian Perspective.” Click on my name, then our website. Go to our Online Books page, click on the top entry, and scroll down to Chapter 11.

    • Grundune

      Troll Alert

      Ted R. Weiland is advertising his anti-U.S. Constitution business.

      Yes, it’s sad, but a preacher has been reduced to ranting against the U.S.
      Constitution instead of saving souls. At least he’s not preaching the
      word of God for filthy lucre because he isn’t preaching the word of God.

      Ask him about the filthy lucre. Who pays for that?

      • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

        Thank you for keeping up with this advertiser.

        • Grundune

          You are welcome. It’s what he’s advertising that ticks me off.

          • T. Edward Price

            I can see how “advertising” a free book, in hopes of calling people to repentance, and restoring liberty, would really tick you off.

          • Grundune

            I repeat once more:

            “If you accuse me of saying something that I didn’t say to slander me, is that lying?”

            It’s not a hard question. A “yes” or a “no” will do as long as it is the truth

        • T. Edward Price

          Wouldn’t “advertiser” imply that his motive is profit? Unless you can prove that, you are making a false claim that is impossible to substantiate.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            From The Free Dictionary – Advertiser also means: To make known; call attention to: as in “advertised my intentions to post post future comments. Also: To warn or notify, as in “this event advertises me that there is such a fact as death” (Henry David Thoreau).

            In this case, he is advertising his website. Most often when someone does that, he has things free of charge, but there is almost always something on the site he wants to sell for money (even asking for donations).

            I, too, would like folks to visit my blog, but I don’t usually mention it unless I’m asked.

            As I said before, if his writings in posts are of such a nature that readers will be impressed enough, they will check his profile and go from there.

  • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

    That the statue is to be unveiled in Detroit is great! Too bad the religious (Islamic style) courts have disingenuously proclaimed that the Decalogue is “historical” and not “religious.”

    Bull hocky! If one of the two decalogues are historical, then Satan, too, is historical. According to Christianity’s own scripture, the judges are committing the the cardinal sin of bearing false witness. But, then again, divine deceit never was considered a sin when in the cause of “truth.” That, of course, is a radical Muslim tenet as well.

    Too, I quite imagine that many folks who are angry about the statue and want it destroyed or removed ironically believe themselves to be “strict constitutionalists.”

    I congratulate the Satanic Temple for testing the boundaries of free speech in the U.S. and exposing the hypocrisy displayed by so many Christians.

  • melizer

    Hear that? That’s the intended point about religious freedom and the separation of church and state and the Establishment Clause whizzing over Christians heads! Wheeeeeee!

  • Clinton

    Why are there so many deleted comments? censorship doesn’t help the conversation, it creates an echo chamber of voices that agree with each other. That’s a shame.

  • Jeffrey Heinze Fry

    “Last May, it was announced that the statue was nearing completion, which features the goat-headed figure Baphomet making the sign for the occult as he sits upon a throne with a pentagram overhead. ”
    Would that sign for the occult happen to be the right hand raised with 2 fingers pointed up and 2 fingers and the thumb curled in?

  • Cosmic Mastermind

    I think it was a reasonable decision. China does not allow religious texts such as The Bible to be preached to children; they can read those books as adults but the Chinese – I think perhaps quite wisely – actively deter the indoctrination of children into religion.