Scores Dead After Storm Causes Crane to Crash Into Mecca’s Grand Mosque

Photo Credit: Ali Mansuri
Photo Credit: Ali Mansuri

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia (New York Post) A towering construction crane toppled over on Friday during a violent rainstorm in the Saudi city of Mecca, Islam’s holiest site, crashing into the Grand Mosque and killing at least 107 people ahead of the start of the annual hajj pilgrimage later this month.

Images posted by social media users showed a grisly scene, with police and onlookers attending to numerous bodies lying amid pools of blood on the polished mosque floors.

Saudi Arabia’s civil defense authority provided a series of rising casualty numbers on its official Twitter account as ambulances whisked the wounded to area hospitals. As of early Saturday, it said those injured in the disaster numbered 238.

A photo released by the authority showed police and workers in hardhats inspecting a pile of collapsed concrete slabs inside a part of the sprawling, ornately decorated mosque. Another showed the base of the toppled red-and-white crane tilted upward at a sharp angle.

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  • Paul Frazier

    The very least you can do is spell “Anglican” correctly. Unless there is some kind of joke in bad taste I am not getting. Also, in the United States, the Anglican communion is named Episcopalian.

    • trenaherringtonchapman

      He was Catholic when he was a Congressman. His faith must mutate.

      • Paul Frazier

        Hasn’t your faith “mutated”? Is your faith the same faith it was 10 years ago? 20? 30? I think that if your faith is the same as it was 30 years ago, then you have learned very little.

    • Hap Arnold

      Actually, The Episcopal Church is part of the Anglican Communion centered in Canterbury. There are other anglican churches in the United States not in communion with Canterbury or The Episcopal Church as they consider them to have abandoned Scripture.

  • http://www.facebook.com/chuck.anziulewicz Chuck Anziulewicz

    There are three main reasons why this is becoming more and more of a non-issue, even for the GOP:

    1: The LGBT community has simply done a much more articulate job of stating our case for marriage equality than you have done in stating your case against it. While you have spoken in abstractions, we have personalized the issue.

    2: Unlike 30 years ago, most people today are AWARE of friends and family members who are Gay, and with that awareness has come vastly increased acceptance and support.

    3: People know that getting married is preferable to simply shacking up together. And the friends and family members that the couple makes that solemn commitment before will act as a social support system within which the couple can better honor their vows. It doesn’t matter whether the couple in question is Straight or Gay.

    • Becky

      1. The homosexual activist groups have been militant in getting their message across. If anyone openly opposes homosexuality, they will suffer the consequences (eg lawsuits). There are more than enough cases to prove that this is their method of operation.

      2. Most people are aware of homosexuality, but that doesn’t mean that they’re accepting or supporting it. If that were the case, the S.Ct. wouldn’t have forced their “interpretation” on the nation…usurping our right to vote.

      3. It does matter whether they’re heterosexual or homosexual. The marriage between a man and a woman is natural and normal and is better than only living together, it’s an actual fact according to countless studies and, more importantly, the word of God.

      • Nofun

        1. No more militant than any church.

        2. You don’t have to support homosexuality just treat gay people the same as everyone else. The majority now support equality. You are the ever shrinking minority.

        3. No such facts.

      • DNelson

        “1. The homosexual activist groups have been militant in getting their message across.”

        How so?

        “If anyone openly opposes homosexuality, they will suffer the consequences”

        What consequences have you suffered, Becky? For that matter, who do you personally know who as suffered consequences for merely opposing homosexuality?

        2. Most people are aware of homosexuality, but that doesn’t mean that they’re accepting or supporting it.”

        Data does not support that statement.

        ” If that were the case, the S.Ct. wouldn’t have forced their “interpretation” on the nation”

        Nothing has been “forced” on the nation. You are free to no marry a person of the same gender if you don’t care to.

        “…usurping our right to vote.”

        The ruling did not “usurp” the right of people to vote. People are free to vote. People are not free, however, to put laws in place which violate protections provided by the Constitution.

        “3. It does matter whether they’re heterosexual or homosexual.”

        How so?

    • Dave_L

      Repent.

      • MarcoPolo

        Why? And for what?

        • Dave_L

          I’ll give you one guess. See if you can hit the bulls eye.

          • Nofun

            Repent from idle, passive belief and pursue the truth.

            You can’t capture the truth in a book or a belief as it is a direction, not a destination. All answers are fleeting and at best will live on as valid in only a limited domain.

          • Dave_L

            Could you be more direct? What do you mean?

          • Nofun

            You pursue answers in the direction of the truth but those answers, hard won as they might be, raise more questions that end up undermining the answers themselves.

            We can only utilize answers to solve problems but as inquiry expands and understanding increases they become less important. Although they must be utilized, they really just represent the end of one line of inquiry.

            That is why bibles are useless. They claim to capture the truth and have answers that apply for all time … which simple isn’t true as truth and answers are not like that.

            Worst of all biblical notions are not hard won but are passively believed. You have to take the journey the questions take you on to understand the answers. A book of answers to unknown questions is useless.

          • Dave_L

            Thanks for clarifying your position. I wholly disagree however for several reasons. 1. God does not change while trends do. 2. The complimentary design of men and women plus their 3 procreative union producing offspring 4 condemns homosexual sex as never rising above masturbation purposes and 5 against nature.

          • Nofun

            1. The old and new testaments are almost diametrically opposed. There would be only testament otherwise. Every believer has a different idea of what god is and does. God itself is just a faith construct which is an internal model in your head which changes as you do.

            2. Body parts have nothing to do with who you love. Nor does procreation.

            3.4. You are trying drag people’s most important loving relationships into the gutter by claiming they are based on nothing but sex. Why couldn’t we say that about your relationships?

            I judge you are with your spouse for just masturbatory reasons. I don’t know you or have any proof that is so but I am going to judge you that way anyway and remove your civil right to marry. It isn’t because I hate you its because my god told me your relationship is evil.

            Also in reality gay people raise children and have families.

            5. 1500 mammalian species exhibit Homosexuality. Its completely natural but less common.

            In summary you have no sane reason to hate gay people or deny them equal rights.

          • Dave_L

            There will never be a meeting of the minds. All I can do is point to God’s word and warn of the consequences for shunning it. If his word doesn’t speak to you there’s nothing more I can do.

            “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. And you shall not lie with any animal and so make yourself unclean with it, neither shall any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it: it is perversion.” (Leviticus 18:22–23, ESV)

            Notice that Homosexuality is more closely related to beastiality than it is heterosexuality. People can only masturbate using others of the same sex or with animals. The natural order of heterosexual compatibility produces offspring.

          • Nofun

            No, all you can do is cherry pick the bible to back up your innate hatreds. No country has suffered anything from granting equal rights to gay people.

            OK. You having sex with your wife is just you like you having sex with a dog. Do you see how offensive that is?

            The bible says a lot things that christians do when they are told not to and that we have laws against. Bible versus have no legal standing.

          • Dave_L

            God ordained sex between one man and one woman in the context of marriage. He designed male and female to produce offspring. He condemns those use same sex or animal bodies for masturbation purposes.

          • Nofun

            God is not real.

            The bible has no legal standing.

            Unlike god, gay people exist.

            Gay people can raise families too.

            Equality is real and just won.

            Dribbling on about bestiality says more about you then gay people.

          • Dave_L

            Things didn’t get here by themselves. That is, the effect didn’t cause itself. If you consider the design in creation and that it became ruined by sin, it is easy to understand why Homosexuality exists. It’s not true to design. If it were the norm there wouldn’t be any people.

          • Nofun

            It has obvious evolutionary advantages as non-breeders use less resources and can still help with raising young, hunting etc.

            Evolution isn’t based on sin. Godly design is imaginary.

          • Dave_L

            We can prove sin. Evolution is only “Theory”.

          • Nofun

            Theory is the highest degree of certitude in science. They don’t grow up to be facts or laws. Evolution has 150+ years of science and evidence behind it and is can’t prayed away.

            Prove sin then. This should be entertaining.

          • Dave_L

            Locks on doors, to start with….

          • Nofun

            So crime is a recent phenomena?

          • Dave_L

            What era would you like to discuss?

          • Nofun

            Do you how many Christians fill jails as compared to atheists?
            Any sin you want to define (and can’t define any yet) is not dealt with by Christianity. Continual forgiveness only makes its worse.

          • Dave_L

            There have been multitudes of jailed and executed Christians throughout history. I can define sin; You know how you would like to be treated, but you do not treat others, including enemies as well as you do yourself. Sin is inequality.

          • Nofun

            The jails today are filled christians breaking the law. They aren’t victims.

          • Dave_L

            We must define Christian. Do we define them by their actions as being Christ like?

          • Nofun

            They claim to be christian. That’s it. You don’t get to play the “not a true Scotsman” card.

          • Dave_L

            Then you must qualify by saying “claim to be Christian” or else you are playing the “guilt by association card”Ad Hominem .

          • Ken Campbell

            Actually that is clearly not true. Homosexuality has a strong evolutionary component in the development of bonding while on long hunting trips.

          • Dave_L

            Remember, evolution is only “theory”. We can prove sin .

          • Ken Campbell

            That would be interesting. How would you prove ‘sin’? To prove ‘sin’ you would first need to prove the existence of a god or gods and then prove that your holy book is the work of this god or gods. This would not meet the criteria for being declared a ‘theory’ until it has been tested.

          • Dave_L

            Have you seen any locks on doors lately?

          • Ken Campbell

            That’s a bit random

          • Ken Campbell

            If your god is so anti-gay, how do you explain the emergence of Same Sex Marriage in many of the best countries in the world. Meanwhile, the countries with an anti-gay agenda are in turmoil. Maybe you are reading this incorrectly

          • Dave_L

            Sin is rampant and all nations eventually decline because of it.

          • Ken Campbell

            The word ‘sin’ is attached to a theist belief. If we take a theist belief as true (for the purposes of this conversation), then we would need to look at the definition (Bible) and determine which countries declined because of it (a causative relationship)

            I don’t know of any nation that has declined because of homosexuality.

          • Dave_L

            Name a nation that hasn’t declined or isn’t declining.

          • Ken Campbell

            What is your criteria for declining. If it is growth and/or stability, I would say that many nations are not declining.

            One nation that is in decline is Japan. This is primarily because of their restricted immigration policy

          • Nofun

            What does declining even mean.. You are just a rapture loving crazy person.

          • Dave_L

            I do not believe in the Rapture movement.

          • Nofun

            What nation is declining and how?

            What you really mean is that you aren’t getting your way so you childishly want to pretend that everything is terrible.

            Sorry, everything is terrible for you only.

          • Dave_L

            Name one that’s not.

          • Nofun

            Ummm all of them. Define decline? Not being christian is not a “decline”.

          • Dave_L

            You are evading the question.

          • Nofun

            No country is declining ….. now tell me why I am wrong.

          • Dave_L

            So according to you they’re all doing just chipper? I notice some of the most powerful and wealthy are the most anti Homosexual too.

          • Nofun

            Still nothing on what country is declining and how?
            Its like you have got nothing.

          • Dave_L

            Every nation in history eventually declined. Morally as well as materially.

          • Nofun

            Still nothing. The gay marriage win improved morality just recently.
            Also cases won against bigot bakers shows immorality will not be tolerated.

          • Dave_L

            It comes down to you seeing what you want to see and me seeing what I don’t want to see. Entropy prevails in everything. Just certain things speed it up.

          • Nofun

            You still haven’t stated what nation is declining and why.
            Entropy ….not really a biblical concept is it. If it is why shouldn’t your god be declining too.

          • Dave_L

            Why is Trump wearing a hat saying “Make America Great Again” if at least enough to have him elected as president don’t know it is true?

          • Nofun

            Because Trump is an idiot.

            Again you have nothing. Much like Trump.

          • Dave_L

            There must be something to his assessment, it is possible that over half of the voters believe this way if he is running part of his campaign on it.

            Also, do you think America was in a state of decline under Bush?

          • Nofun

            America is not in decline. Bush did his best but the economy got over him.

            Trump is a moron with no policies.

          • Dave_L

            “Bush did his best” = declined under Bush?

          • Nofun

            America is not in decline.

            You are on a flogging to nowhere with this argument.

          • Dave_L

            12 signs America is on the decline

            fortune(dot)com/2015/07/20/united-states-decline-statistics-economic/

          • Nofun

            You aren’t going to say Rome fell because of gay marriage are you, when it actually fell when it banned such marriages and went christian.

          • Dave_L

            Rome never went Christian, nor did any other nation. They went Catholic.

          • Nofun

            Catholicism is christian and was the only form of Christianity before Luther. Trust you to be a bigot against Catholics too. You born agains really are pieces of work.

          • Dave_L

            There were always non-institutional churches that suffered at the hands of the Catholics and even some Protestant Churches. Waldenses, Albigenses, Baptists, AnaBaptists. These are some groups plus many individuals.

          • Nofun

            Plenty have suffered from protestant churches … ask the German Jews. Ask the third of white Europeans killed in the Reformation wars.

          • Dave_L

            I mentioned Protestant persecution along with Catholic so your reply is pointless. Although the Catholics have killed around fifty million from around 500 AD until the French Revolution.

          • Nofun

            The reformation wars had two sides. But, well done, you have showed the death toll that Christianity has inflicted on humanity. Well some of it anyway.

            Pretending Catholics aren’t christian is a delusion wrapped up in a delusion. Bigotry too. Again, well done, you born agains are top people.

          • Nofun

            If god wants a say he come down and have a discussion with us mere humans. Again claiming loving gay people with animals sex is disgusting and you are a low life for making that comparison.

            Again when its turned back on you, as when I say you having sex with your wife is like you having sex with a dog, its not great is it?

            No one is asking you to be gay. It doesn’t matter anymore anyway because you lost and gays now have equal rights whether you or your delusions like it or not.

          • Ken Campbell

            I’m a bit concerned about his interest in animals

          • Nofun

            Yes, they always end up there.

          • MarcoPolo

            I don’t play guessing games, but I’m quite sure the answer is Biblical.
            Thanks, but I’ll pass.

  • Jade

    Kasich appears to have what it takes to be President of the United States. He does not have the hate in his heart that most Christian extremist would like him to have. He acknowledged that he was brought up with a certain belief but he accepts the SCOTUS ruling, is educating himself to the truth and now shows love and compasion for his fellow human being; he actually sounds Chirst-like.

    • Becky

      Kasich sounds Christ-like? Then you don’t know Christ. Christ spoke the truth, which is love, but, his words were unpopular, which is why he was crucified. No one wanted to hear about their hypocrisy and sins. Christ told everyone what they needed to know (the truth) in order to have salvation. He said to love God and obey his laws…he said it repeatedly.

      Kasich is telling everyone what they want to hear, you know, in order to win the Presidency.

      • Nofun

        Jesus said nothing about being gay.

        • Becky

          God said that homosexuality is an abomination (eg Leviticus 18:22). Christ is God’s word in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16, 1 John 3:5,8). Christ spoke the words of God…he continually quoted the words written in the “Old Testament”. The bible clearly says, “For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.” John 3:34

          • Jade

            Moses said that homosexuality is an abomination. If you believe Moses was speaking for God, then as you obviously know your Bible; you must agree that God sees women as 2nd class human beings. Also you must believe God supports slavery; it is okay to beat your slaves as long as you don’t kill them or that it is okay to pass the slaves and their childen to your children as a permanent inheritance. You must also believe that God is okay with genocide. He commanded Samuel to tell King Saul to kill all of the Amalekites for attacking the Isrealites when they left Egypt. God commanded them to kill all of the men, women, children and infants for something that happened 420 years earlier (kill the innocent). I am sure that you are also very familiar with Psalm 137 “…happy is he who smashes the infant’s heads against the rocks…”

          • Nofun

            In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn’t know they were doing anything wrong.

            The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. “But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given.”
            (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

          • Becky

            Leviticus 18 begins with “Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘I am the Lord your God.” God commanded Moses of what to speak.

            God sees women as second class citizens? Point out the exact verse where God said this.

            It says in Genesis 2:27, “So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.” Surely not second class at all…that’s just one example. God Almighty isn’t the one who treats women like second class citizens.

            God supports slavery? Again, point out the exact verse that says it. Slavery, per se, wasn’t condemned in the bible. That was how some would repay debt, by becoming a servant to the creditor and for some that would be a sure way of getting food and shelter. The problem was how slaves/servants were treated. God gaves Moses laws about the rights/protection of slaves (eg Lev 25:39-55; Deut 15).

            The Amalekites you are referring to were descendants of those who ambushed Israel and they were referred to as “enemies of the Lord”. They were just as evil as their fathers, clearly they taught their children to hate and war against the Israelites. The Amalekites would join forces with other enemies to try and wipe out the Israelites and their allies. The Amalekites weren’t innocent by any stretch of the imagination. King David had to battle against them, too.

            Psalm 137:8,9 “O daughter of Babylon, who are to be destroyed, happy the one who repays you as you have served us! Happy the one who takes and dashes your little ones against the rock.”

            Psalm 137 is a prophecy against Babylon. God didn’t command his people to do anything against anyone. It’s revealing what will happen to Babylon by those who will be happy to destroy it. The scripture clearly says, “happy the one who repays you as you have served us!” Babylon was evil to the core and not just to Israel. It was destroyed to the ground by other enemies…the Medes and the Persians.

            Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, a God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.

          • Jim H

            “God supports slavery? Again, point out the exact verse that says it.”

            How about Leviticus 23:44-46, where God actually gives instructions on where to get them, defines them as property which can be bequeathed, and states they remain slaves their whole lives:

            “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.”

          • Becky

            Nothing within those verses, or the entire bible, states that God supported slavery. God enacted laws in order to protect servants and slaves from any injustice. They were to be paid, monetarily or with food/shelter, for their servitude. God reminded the Israelites continually that they should do good to strangers (Lev 19:34) and servants, because they were once strangers and they were his servants (Lev 25:55).

            “You shall not oppress a hired servant who is poor and needy, whether one of your brethren or one of the aliens who is in your land within your gates. Each day you shall give him his wages, and not let the sun go down on it, for he is poor and has set his heart on it; lest he cry out against you to the Lord, and it be sin to you.” Deut 24:14,15

            Christ said that a master and his servants should behave just and godly towards one another (Matthew 18:23-34 and 24:45-51).

            Job understood that quite well…“If I have denied justice to any of my servants, whether male or female, when they had a grievance against me, what will I do when God confronts me? What will I answer when called to account? Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us both within our mothers?”(Job 31:13-15).

            Paul, like Job, understood Christ’s teachings, too, “Masters, provide your bondservants with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven.”(Col.4:1).

            Paul also condemned the sinful act of slave-dealing, kidnapping a man/woman and selling them into slavery (1 Tim. 1:10; Exo. 21:16).

          • DNelson

            Great job of pointing out the inconsistencies of the Bible.

          • Becky

            Where are the inconsistencies?

          • DNelson

            The Bible is the literal word of God, so I’m assuming you believe. Jim H provided a verse (and there are others) that support slavery. You provided verses that you believe support the notion that God did not support slavery. Since both can’t be true – there is inconsistency.

          • Becky

            Our different views doesn’t make God’s word inconsistent. JimH wants to defend homosexuality, so he thinks that if he can make God look like a tyrant it will then justify his stance. Nothin’ worse than a blind man that doesn’t want to see. He, along with the usual group, will pick scripture (mixed garments, shaved heads/beards, etc), that they know nothing about, as an attempt to discredit the bible. That will only work on those who don’t have a relationship with God.

            It’s clear that God allowed slavery, but it’s not the same paradigm that we’re familiar with. God specifically gave laws that would protect servants/slaves from all injustice, so that servants/slaves could live a good, godly life, again, unlike the paradigm we’re familiar with. God never commanded, nor supported slavery…not in the sense that JimH is presenting. When God allowed divorce, he said he hates divorce (Malachi 2:16), yet he enacted laws (eg Deut 24) in order to protect those involved…he didn’t support it…he allowed it.

          • DNelson

            “God specifically gave laws that would protect servants/slaves from all injustice”

            Slavery is unjust.

          • Jim H

            “Nothing within those verses, or the entire bible, states that God supported slavery.”

            Nothing within the verses cannot be interpreted as God supporting slavery. The fact that you don’t like that, does not make your denial credible. I will break it down into smaller points so maybe you will get what Leviticus says.
            Below are the relevant points of what God said:

            “you may buy slaves.”

            “they will become your property.”

            “You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property”

            “can make them slaves for life”
            That is supporting slavery. I don’t know how you can twist any of those points around to mean anything other than their obvious meaning.
            You asked for one passage and I gave it to you.

          • Becky

            God allowed it, like he allowed divorce. That’s hardly support. God didn’t command slavery, either. However, he did command that they were to treat each other in godly manner (Ephesians 6:5-9).

            You bypassed, intentionally I’m sure, all the laws God enacted in order to protect those that were servants/slaves. You also bypassed the great truths regarding the love and care God imparted upon those who were servants or slaves.

            Again, Paul, according to God’s law, condemned the sinful act of slave-dealing, kidnapping a man/woman and selling them into slavery (1 Tim. 1:10; Exo. 21:16). So, don’t compare our paradigm of slavery with what God allowed men to do concerning servants/slaves. It’s incomparable. Slave-dealing/kidnapping is something that God condemned and never condoned, supported or commanded.

          • Nofun

            Jesus was all for for slavery and the punishment of slaves even if they weren’t aware they did something wrong.

            “The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. “But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given.”
            (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

          • Jade

            Becky, you are so blinded by your religion that you can not see how pathetic your apologizing is. I will give you only one verse to have you come up with an apology for: Leviticus 12:1 “The LORD gave Moses the following regulations for people of Israel. For 7 days after a woman gives birth to a son, she is ritually unclean, as she is during her monthly peirod”. Leviticus 12:5 “For 14 days after a woman gives birth to a daughter, she is ritually unclean, as she is during her monthly period”. I look forward to see how you apologize for this scripture.

          • Nofun

            Jesus I said.

          • Becky

            The Holy Bible teaches that there’s only One God.

            Isaiah 44:8 Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.’”(Also see 1 Cor. 10:4).

            Jesus is God.

            John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

            John 1:14, And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

            Matthew 1:23 Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

            1 Tim. 3:16, And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory.

          • Nofun

            So the crucifixion meant nothing then as if Jesus was a god then he couldn’t be killed so he was not resurrected and god the father didn’t risk anything or had a son either.

            The idea that Jesus and God were the same was decided in at the First Council of Nicea by men.

            “The Arian question regarding the relationship between God the Father and the Son (not only in his incarnate form as Jesus, but also in his nature before the creation of the world); i.e., are the Father and Son one in divine purpose only or also one in being?”

            “One purpose of the council was to resolve disagreements rising from within the Church of Alexandria over the nature of the Son in his relationship to the Father: in particular, whether the Son had been ‘begotten’ by the Father from his own being, and therefore having no beginning, or else created out of nothing, and therefore having a beginning. St. Alexander of Alexandria and Athanasius took the first position; the popular presbyter Arius, from whom the term Arianism comes, took the second. The council decided against the Arians overwhelmingly (of the estimated 250–318 attendees, all but two agreed to sign the creed and these two, along with Arius, were banished to Illyria).”

          • Becky

            God manifested to flesh…He was Immanuel, but he was flesh. He suffered, died and resurrected…according to the bible. If you are not going to be using the bible alone, then we’re not on a level playing field. No wonder you’re confused. Stick to the bible only and you might know the truth, by God’s grace alone.

          • Nofun

            Immanuel ? Do you mean immortal …. if so he can’t be killed and thus isn’t resurrected.

      • amostpolitedebate

        “Kasich is telling everyone what they want to hear, you know, in order to win the Presidency.”

        …In the GOP primary? Kind of an odd place to pander with that particular message.

      • Jade

        Christians tell each other what they want to hear. The Bible speaks clearly about death. You sleep in your graves until the 2nd coming of Christ. Yet Christians do not like that message so that come up with a false teaching. They do this because this is what they want to hear. It would be bad for business (church) if people knew the Bible teaches that not a single person is currently in heaven or hell.

        • Becky

          I do believe the dead remain in their graves and will remain there until Christ’s second coming, because, as you well said, that’s what the bible teaches. Unfortunately, some don’t believe it…even Christ didn’t ascend to heaven upon his death. He remained in his tomb until his resurrection and then eventually ascended to heaven. To know the truth is to read the bible for yourself, daily.

          Couple of examples, from many, of what happens to the dead…

          Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun. (Vs. 10) Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.

          Psalm 115:17 The dead do not praise the Lord, nor any who go down into silence.

          Couple of examples, from many, of what will happen to the dead…

          Daniel 12:1, 2 (Chapter is about the end days)
          At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, every one who is found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.

          1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

          • Nofun

            A skeleton party? Ye hah.

      • DNelson

        What law did Christ provide regarding homosexuals?

        • Becky

          Christ is the word of God (eg John 1:1-3, 14) and he taught and obeyed God’s laws…his word (Christ was also a Teacher). He continuously taught that we are to obey God’s laws…his word…Christ (Luke 4:4). Here’s a few examples…

          John 3:34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.

          John 8:47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

          John 5:46, 47 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

          John 14:21,22, 23, 24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.” Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

          • Nofun

            None of that is to do with gay people.

          • DNelson

            Let me know when you come up with a law that Jesus provided regarding homosexuals.

          • Becky

            Isaiah prophesied of Christ, “The Lord is well pleased for His righteousness’ sake; He will exalt the law and make it honorable.” Isaiah 42:21

            Christ exalted/magnified and honored God’s laws. He didn’t ignore God’s laws, nor did he ever teach anyone to disobey them, on the contrary.

            “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 5:17-20

            Christ hasn’t fulfilled the law, yet, so God’s laws are still in effect.

            Christ is the word of God in the flesh (eg 1 Timothy 3:16), he exalted, honored and taught his own word…God’s word…Christ.

          • Nofun

            The bible was heavily edited to create a prophecy to be fulfilled by the new testament. But again, you tie Jesus to all the insane notions of the old testament while other christians claim the old testament doesn’t apply anymore, in order to run away from these notions.

            Maybe you and the 400o other christian sects need to get together and decide what you actually believe about your dogma..

          • DNelson

            Still trying to find that law Jesus provided regarding homosexuals, I see. Well, let me know if you have any luck.

      • Ken Campbell

        Christianity and Islam were started as a means of controlling diverse empires. The primary goal of Christianity has always been to control the people (it has not been to meet the needs of the people). the Crucifixion story was part of the effort to manage behavior to establish consequences for behavior. The story was written to maintain women in a subservient role and to establish men as the power. Homosexuality was contrary to this so was not acceptable

  • trenaherringtonchapman

    Isn’t it odd that when he was just a Congressman he didn’t mind calling himself Catholic, but now that he’s jockeying for the White House, he’s Anglican?

  • SFBruce

    How refreshing that this was the single question and response about same sex marriage from last night. It seems to me Kasich made it pretty clear this is highly unlikely to be an issue in this presidential campaign.

  • Becky

    Lisa Severine Nolland is spot on.

    Sinners came to sit with Christ as he sat and ate (Matt 9) and he was questioned by the Pharisees as to why he would allow that. Christ made it clear in Mark 2:17, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

    Christ came to save sinners, that’s the reason for his life, death and resurrection…destroy sin (1John3:8) and save those who love and obey him (John 14:21-24). We cannot say that we love and obey God if we do the opposite of his word. We’re either with God or against him (Matthew 12:30, John 3:34).

    Yes, we are to love others, but “love doesn’t…rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth” 1 Cor 13:6. To condone the sins of others is doing a great injustice, not only to them, but to ourselves, “Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.” Romans 12:9. We also have to keep from polluting ourselves by not condoning/partaking in the sins of others…Ephesians 5:1-21 goes into great detail about this very thing.

    There comes a point when Christians will have to choose.
    Matthew 10:37-39 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

    • Nofun

      Your family should come before a faith construct.

  • FoJC_Forever

    Mr. Milktoast.

    God has ruled on homosexuality, and subsequently homosexual “marriage”, but he has decided to ignore God’s Ruling.

    Fake Christianity always compromises with the world.

    Judgement is coming.

    • Nofun

      Faith constructs have no legal standing and should not be used to hide your innate bigotry behind.

      • Nidalap

        Bigotry
        [big-uh-tree]
        noun, plural bigotries.
        1.
        stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one’s own.
        2.
        the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot.

        Wowzers! Sounds like anyone could be one! Maybe even you? 🙂

        • Nofun

          Who am I bigoted against again? Bigots or Faith constructs.

          • Nidalap

            Christians, of course! 🙂

          • Nofun

            No, just pointing out realities.

            Gods are faith constructs and faith constructs have no legal standing.

            Pretty basic really. You just want to play the victim.

          • Nidalap

            Ah-ah-ah! You fit the definition! It’s okay though! Bigotry’s not all bad, it just has that ‘bad word’ sound to it! It just means you have very strong opinions! (^_^)

          • Nofun

            A frothing at the mouth zealot you mean. Yes that sounds like a worthy goal.

          • Nidalap

            Well now,
            zealotry

            [zel-uh-tree]
            noun
            1.
            undue or excessive zeal; fanaticism.

            I suppose if you’re worried about that, you COULD tone down your comments a bit. That would make you kind of boring though, don’t you think? 🙂

          • Nofun

            Your dictionary definitions actually backfire on you.

            In the USA you don’t get to harm others with the Christianity excuse.

          • Nidalap

            Oh dear! I’ve harmed you! My apologies! 🙂

          • Nofun

            Calling me gay is no insult as I am not terrified of gay people nor concerned about sexual orientation.

          • Nidalap

            Don’t recall calling you happy-go-lucky. Maybe you’ve confused me with someone else? 🙂

          • Nofun

            Too gutless to own up to your own weak insults .. figures.

          • Nidalap

            No, really! Perhaps if you could copy/paste the insult it would help? 🙂

          • Nofun

            “Oh dear! I’ve harmed you! My apologies! :)”
            The topic is gay marriage and I stated that you don’t get harm others with your religion.

            Do you really need your own insults explained to you.
            I don’t care…. insult away.

          • Nidalap

            If you’ll look at the post that that sentence is a reply to, you’ll notice that it’s a direct reflection of its language. We all need a little explanation now and then! 🙂

          • Nofun

            Whatever.

          • DNelson

            “Bigotry’s not all bad”

            An example?

          • Nidalap

            The definition, you see, it applies to ANYONE with a fervently held belief or opinion. For instance, white supremacists believe that the other races are little more than animals. I am stubbornly and completely intolerant of that. By definition, I am bigoted against them! 🙂

          • DNelson

            So the only reason you are completely intolerant of the belief of white supremacists is that it differs from your belief? No other reasons?

          • Nidalap

            Now you’re just being argumentative. I didn’t say that and you know it. I have given my example and I think it’s a pretty good spin on bigotry! Maybe I’ll start a trend!

            Don’t be a “Bigotry” bigot! (^_^)

          • DNelson

            Bigotry is defined by intolerance only because the belief is not the same as yours. Therefore, to use that as an example of bigotry, would require that you have no reason other than the belief is different from yours. Otherwise, it is not an example of bigotry. It is an example of difference of opinion. You can certainly be strongly opposed to their views, but I would assume that you would have reasons for that other than – they don’t believe as I do, no?

          • Nidalap

            Wowzers! Only one reason, huh? Sounds awfully one-dimensional to describe a human being. Still, that would mean that Christians who are opposed to homosexuality because it differs from them and also because of the increased health risks and so forth can’t actually BE bigots! That’s a relief! 🙂

          • DNelson

            “Only one reason, huh? Sounds awfully one-dimensional to describe a human being.”

            Absolutely. Which, of course, what differentiates a bigot from a person with a different view.

            “Still, that would mean that Christians who are opposed to homosexuality because it differs from them and also because of the increased health risks and so forth can’t actually BE bigots!”

            Well there are no inherent increased health risks with being homosexual and I have no idea what “so forth” means, so until there is some other basis besides “they are different than me”, then no, that would still be bigotry.

            “That’s a relief! :)”

            So you were concerned you were a bigot?

      • FoJC_Forever

        The only “legal standing” Christians need is the Righteous Standing we have been gifted with from the LORD, Jesus (the) Christ. Those who accept or are permissive towards homosexuality are betraying this Righteous Standing and are not to be supported Christians.

        • Nofun

          Just obey the law and the constitution. Christians have no special rights to ignore either.

          • FoJC_Forever

            We do have the Right given to us by God to not follow and obey the Wicked.

          • Blaylock

            nopers. try violating the law and see what happens…. but gawd!

          • Nofun

            Find another country then because this one doesn’t function that way. You want to live in a christian theocracy. Find one.

    • Ken Campbell

      Good luck with that.

    • Elie Challita

      God has also ruled on shrimp, razors, and tweed. I don’t see him smiting the Crab Shack, though…

  • BarkingDawg

    The GOP is imploding in failure

  • DNelson

    How is this relevant to his qualifications to be president?

    • Nofun

      Exactly.

  • Harry Oh!

    The Anglican Church has lost it’s way and so has this guy.

    • Nofun

      Or maybe morality is evolving for the better and you are being left behind.