Video Shows ‘Prosperity’ Preachers Kenneth Copeland, Paula White Laying Hands on Donald Trump for Presidency

Trump Prayer-compressedNEW YORK — What do Kenneth Copeland, Paula White, Jan Crouch, Dr. David Jeremiah and Robert Jeffress all have in common? A video has surfaced online showing the men and women, along with others, laying hands on Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump this week and praying for his potential presidency.

According to reports, an estimated three dozen spiritual leaders from across America met with Trump for over two hours at his Trump Towers on Monday, providing advice. Those in attendance included a number of nationally-recognized televangelists and prosperity preachers, including the aforementioned Copeland, Crouch and White, as well as TBN regulars Jentezen Franklin, Steve Munsey and Clarence McClendon.

The meeting concluded as many of those gathered laid hands on Trump and prayed for God’s wisdom and favor on the candidate—the last few moments of which was captured on camera. He was flanked by White on one side and Jeffress on the other.

“Father, we just secure him right now by the blood of Jesus. We thank you that no weapon formed against him will be able to prosper and any tongue that rises against him will be condemned according to the word of God,” White, who leads New Destiny Christian Center in Florida, prayed as she touched his arm. “Even as we lay hands on him right now, let Your hand be laid upon him. Let him have a greater encounter with You, a greater encounter with the spirit of God.”

“All the days of his life, let him live well,” she continued. “I secure him. I secure his children. I secure his calling and his mantle.”

Kenneth Copeland, who leads Kenneth Copeland Ministries in Texas and has come under criticism for his health and wealth teaching, asked for wisdom for the candidate.

“[W]e ask you today to give this man your wisdom, boldly. Make sure and certain that he hears You. Manifest Yourself to him,” he prayed. “And we thank You and praise You for a bold man, a strong man and an obedient man.”

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Following Copeland, Kirt Schneider of Jews for Jesus laid his hand on Trump’s forehead and prayed the Abrahamic blessing over the Republican presidential candidate.

“Donald Trump, the Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make his face shine on you and be gracious to you. The Lord lift you up with His countenance and give you His peace,” he declared.

David Jeremiah, pastor of Shadow Mountain Community Church in El Cajon, California also participated in the prayers, asking that the next president “will help us economically and spiritually, and in every way.”

“So today we pray for Donald Trump,” he said, as the others in the room joined in agreement. “We pray for his family. We pray for his associates. We pray that what he has heard today from those who have spoken into his life, he will consider.”

“Lord, whatever it is that You are going to do to bring around him the right people as he moves forward in this campaign, we ask you to give him direction and give him hope,” Jeremiah continued. “And Lord, thank you for allowing us to be here for this special moment. Perhaps we’ll look back on this day and remember that we stood together and we prayed for the next president of the United States.”

But not everyone is happy to hear about the meeting. Russell Moore, the president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention, said that he was concerned that out of all of Christianity, billionaire Trump seems to be attracted to prosperity preachers.

“The people that Trump has so far identified as his evangelical outreach are mostly prosperity gospel types, which are considered by mainstream evangelicals to be heretics,” he told Politico.

“Trump seems to be positioning himself as a secular version of the health-and-wealth televangelists,” Moore continued. “What Donald Trump is doing in terms of promises for the future is very similar to what’s going on among these prosperity gospel hawkers.”


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  • The Ranger

    Where was Jakes and the Osteends they must not have got the memo? Or worse maybe they’re Democrats.

  • Dave_L

    I do not think it is possible for a Christian to be President or hold any civil magistrate position that requires violence as part of the job description. You cannot bear the Magistrate’s Sword and the Cross of Christ at the same time. The Sword and the Cross represent two totally opposite ethics. One of wrath and vengeance, the other of love, peace and forgiveness.

  • JudeThree

    Dr Jeffries is a very solid teacher, why he is associating with this group, I don’t know?

    • SavannahSummer

      That’s my thoughts about Dr. Jeremiah as well and it truly disappoints me.

      • 123Star

        WHY? If The Holy Spirit is guiding ALL these well known Pastors to Mr. Trump, maybe your overlooking what God wants instead of what you want. You never know what really lies in a mans soul. There is a time appointed under the sun…

        • Terry

          I would not blame the Holy Spirit for “guiding” these people. Not all are pastors. Men will follow an invitation, especially one of importance. I am sure they were treated well with all expenses paid. Remember Balaam! Numbers 22 (note verse 22).

        • Shirley temple dancer

          That’s right all creatures become new with Christ

      • Desertcatn

        In the Bible, God used some of the most broken sinful men, for great purpose! Who are you to judge who God will use?

    • Peter Leh

      perhaps wanting to know the most important question of all, ” Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays” ? 🙂

    • 123Star

      They are all in One Spirit…

      • Terry

        You can’t know that!

    • Terry

      I have heard him preach and he does a good job most of the time but he has doctrinal issues like many of us do. He will interpret the Bible the way he wants it rather than taking it for what it literally says.

  • Teijo Kakkila

    Like a scene from borat. Useful tools

  • Toots

    That Trump even aloud them to pray for him and talk to him spoke volumes . Christ Jesus was lifted up and that is what God see’s. I pray that Mr. Trump looks to God .

    • The Ranger

      Maybe he allowed them to pray for him so he could identify with the Christain right. So as to solidify the Christain vote which in it self is understandable I pray that’s the case. However if it was for the politics solely for the purpose of the Christian vote that’s a horse of a different color. Unfortunately I have no way of knowing his spiritual background or his motivation for such a reason I’m not trying to be negative here but remember Judas.

      • Desertcatn

        Or maybe God intends to use Donald Trump, the way he used the other sinful men, He used in the Bible. If you notice, most of the men used greatly in the Bible, had grievous sins. The thing these men used in the Bible had was heart and strong passions; do you think God should have used nicer men, who looked good to the other Christians?

    • Terry

      I hope you are right but it makes me wonder if Trump wasn’t the one lifted up and Jesus is the pawn used to do it. Now, that is my concern here.

    • Desertcatn

      Only God judges a man’s heart! Your ugly speculation reflects badly on your hearts.

  • Budlorance

    Actually, it’s a good prayer. And they’re not all Prosperity preachers, so once again an Internet article comes with a misleading headline, shocker! We all need to be praying for the future of this country as well as our current leaders and future leaders.

    • The Ranger

      Come on Copeland and Franklin! I’m pentecostal myself remember Russell Moore the president of ethics and religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention, Baptist yes: none the less said that he was concerned that out of ALL CHRISTIANITY billionaire Trump seem to be attracted to prosperity Preachers. Imagine that!

      • 123Star

        Baptist know the Word, but lack to use the gifts of The Spirit.

        • Terry

          What does gifts have to do with prosperity preachers? There are many gifts of the Spirit and none of them is the gift to gain wealth. However, I do not believe wealth itself is a sin or is wrong.

          • 123Star

            Jesus said, He wishes all should Prosper. The Key Is, having Jesus direct and guide your steps.Some have much and others have little, but know matter your situation let God provide!!! And He will…

          • Laurence Charles Ringo

            Where did Jesus say that,123Star?

          • 123Star

            Book of 3rd John Chapter 1 vs 2. And there is so much more, you should seek Him like Millions of others have and found Him!!!!

          • Laurence Charles Ringo

            Normally I wouldn’t contest a Biblical verse unless it was a misquote,123Star,which is what this is.The Apostle John wrote this personal letter addressing the recipient; Jesus is NOT the one speaking or being quoted,so you’re in error here,123Star.Don’t get caught out adding to Scripture to try and bolster your pet doctrines,something that the”prosperity”crooks are very good at. (By the way,has Crooklo Dollar’s pet congregation ponied up for the $ 65 million-dollar Gulfstream yet?)—Wise up,123Star,before you’re taken for a ride by these charlatans and scam-artists.

          • 123Star

            All scripture is inspired by The Holy Spirit, that means not by man alone.
            God uses people for His Glory, that is why that everything Written is True. You’ll never really learn anything with a hard heart. Worry about yourself and not others you seem to judge unfairly, because God is our only true judge. God said, give Him 10% of your earnings, that’s if you believe God and Trust Him. The Bible is all about Jesus, from start to finish!!!

          • Laurence Charles Ringo

            What on Earth are you talking about,123Star? Who have I judged unfairly? And who am I to give 10% of my earnings to,and why? All I ask of you or anyone is that if you’re going to defend your position with Scripture,you had better know what you’re doing,and as the great Apostle Paul said,…”rightly divide the Word of Truth”…,don’t just throw out-of-context,isolated verses at me.Scripture interprets Scripture,a lesson I learned over 25 years ago,and as I’ve said many times on these sites,my everyday,go-to Scripture is Proverbs 3 : 5-6.One CANNOT go wrong with Almighty God as your guide,and I trust the Holy Spirit’s discernment and guidance ALL.DAY.LONG.,123Star.Do YOU? I stand by EVERYTHING I say on these posts,and I always search the Scriptures and compare EVERYONE’S teachings to the Word of God; NO ONE,no matter how high men have lifted them up,is above what”Thus saith the Lord”or “What does the Scriptures say”?…no one.So…Mull and reflect, 123Star.

          • Desertcatn

            Liberation theology is Marxist and has nothing to do with Christianity.

          • 123Star

            Google; The gifts of the Spirit of God. Having anyone of them is a true blessing from God.

      • 123Star

        Remember one thing, you can’t take your money to heaven. Another thing, Mr. Trump is a giver and not a taker.

  • TracyGrace

    I’d like to remind everyone that all of these pastors love Jesus Christ, and America. Let’s not let our differences take away from what God is doing in Trump’s life. How awesome to be prayed for with those prayers. I believe God is using Trump in a mighty way, whether it is all the way to the White House or not, I believe God loves Trump’s abundantly generous heart and is reaching out to him, to come closer to Him. … How beautiful!!

    • dolly

      Yes i agree .

  • JINGJING39

    (Matthew 7:15) “Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.”

    • Joyce Denning

      Pastor David Jeremiah Is A Great Man Of God Whom I Had The Honor To Be A Part Of His Church For Years. He Preaches From The Word Of God Every Time The Doors Opens, Also He Speaks From The Heart Because He Cares,
      For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
      John 3:16

      • Jina Appa

        Sorry but if he’s part of that group, he’s a false prophet. You can like him all you want but it doesn’t change the fact that he is one.

        • Karen Osterblom

          Lol you’re a real riot alice. PROVE your case and show me researched FACTS. I’m sick and tired of listening to lies. You’re so full of FEAR you can’t see a man of God for your FEAR.

        • Kena

          Jina, I can understand where you are coming from but I agree with Joyce Denning. Pastor Jeremiah is a man of God. The others are not as he is, there is a difference for certain.

          Blessings,
          Kenny

          PS, beware making accusation against any person. You must be certain if you will bring accusation against another. Remember that Christ said we will give an account for every idle word? How much worse the judgment for falsely accusing another.

          • Shirley temple dancer

            Actually pastor Jeffers is a man of God too I know him

          • Linda Arnett

            Why did they allow themselves to be taken in by this charlatan? Certainly were not using godly wisdom. I thought that pastors were not allowed to speak politically. This certainly seemed to be their approval of this man that they have to know is not a real Christian. The only hope we have to save this nation is getting a real Christian into our White House and I believe that to be Dr. Carson. He has lived his faith for many years and will work to unite us as One Nation Under God again. WinBenWin so that this nation can survive.

          • Desertcatn

            You don’t know Donald Trump’s heart, shame on you! Dr. Carson is a nice man, but he is a Seventh Day Adventist and there are some real doctrinal differences.

          • Laurence Charles Ringo

            Hmm…you had better reflect upon what Jesus Himself said about the heart,”Desertcatn”.Heed Our Saviour’s Words in the Gospel of Luke chapter 6,vss.43-45.I’ve paid very close attention to Trump’s political rhetoric,and frankly after listening to what has been coming out of his mouth of late…really,Desertcatn? REALLY? Come on.Did you catch the profanity Trump uttered soon after this prayer meeting when he referenced the differences between Jeb Bush and his erstwhile opponent? You had better…”Search the Scriptures”…as Our Saviour said Desertcatn.PEACE.

          • Desertcatn

            There are worst sins than that, Laurence, such as selling us out to foreign influences. We are electing a President, not a Pastor and we want someone who will act in our country’s best interest.

          • Laurence Charles Ringo

            What “us”are you referring to,Desertcatn?

          • Desertcatn

            Our country, Laurence, Americans, the other candidates are beholden to interests wanting to flood our country with people, when many Americans are without a job.

          • GibbyD

            Trump only acts in his own self-interest and not that of the country.

          • Desertcatn

            Trump is the only one that has mentioned the crisis on our southern border and changed the whole conversation in this campaign!

          • GibbyD

            WHAT ???!!!??? Are you being serious ? EVERY Republican candidate has been talking about what is going on with illegal immigration long before Trump started talking about it. The only reason it seems to you as if Trump is the only one is because the media is only covering Trump and not the other candidates. The media and libs want Trump to be the the Republican nominee because they believe they have a better chance of beating him than any of the others.

          • Desertcatn

            Wrong, except for Ted Cruz, none have and the others expressed outrage about illegal immigration, that Trump did. Jeb, Carly and Rubio are all for amnesty, so I doubt they would be out there talking about it, given the unpopularity of the issue. Fox and the other media outlets have had it in for Trump and Cruz, shoving Jeb on us. Now the media realizes that no one wants Jeb or Carly, so Rubio is their guy. You don’t have to like Trump, but let’s keep to the facts.

          • GibbyD

            You have not been listening to Huckabee. He has a plan and is not just a talker. What Trump is doing is making promises with no detailed step by step workable way about how to accomplish what he says he will do. We dot need to get rid of one tyrant to place another in his place. Huckabee is a man that can get things does and who has a plan that works .

          • Desertcatn

            Then follow Huckabee, it doesn’t require you to destroy another man’s reputation.

          • GibbyD

            Trump’s “reputation” is not in a position that it can be any lower. There is nothing to be destroyed . It is already in the gutter. You know nothing about this Trump , do you? What is so sad is that professing Christians fall all over themselves over someone that has money even if he is a serial fornicator and adulterer. Professing Christians that call evil good and good evil , will be the ones that are in trouble. The love of money and things seems to be the M.O. of many professing faith in Christ in these last days. ( 1 Samuel 16:7)KJB. It is very sad that American Christians can be so easily deceived by some television evangelist .

          • Desertcatn

            I’m not some professing Christian, my faith is private to me and I don’t go quoting scripture; while spewing ugliness. My domain is mostly political sites, reading media from around the world. That said, you are the one being deceived and deceitful, you don’t know God’s plans for Donald Trump or what is in his heart; so your gossip is between you and God!

            Your envy of a man with money and contempt shown, is avarice, plain and simple. Your envy is from the Marxist spirit of the world, that is dividing Christians along class, creed and color; that also is between you and God! I see no further reason to trade posts with you, so please go spew your garbage to someone else. Thank you!

          • GibbyD

            You said,”my faith is private to me and I don’t go quoting scripture; ” — This is at odds with those that have professed to know Christ. “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.” ( Romans 1:16)KJB. Those that know Him, love His Word and share God’s truth.

            “My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. 2For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; 3And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: 4Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts? 5Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? 6But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? 7Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

            8If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.” ( James 2:1-9)KJB.

            I am a capitalist and believe The United States has the best economic system in the world. I am not a Marxist or socialist. I would probably to the far right of Ronald Reagan and Barry Goldwater.

            What I am though is someone that has eyes and discernment. I know when someone is a fraud based upon , not what he says, but what he does and continues to do. It is very sad that someone like yourself are so fooled by a man like Trump,that you would ignore the facts about him. You have respect to persons and think that gain is godliness. Don’t be part of the large company of pretenders that love the world and the things that are in it. It will all pass away because the things that are seen are temporary.

            “Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.” ( 1st Timothy 6:5)KJB

            “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” ( 1st John 2:15)KJB

            “Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches.” ( Psalm 73:12)KJB.

            “While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.” ( Psalm 73:12)KJB.

            Why would anyone “envy” a lost man ? I do not envy the ungodly.

          • Desertcatn

            My faith and my sins are between God and myself, Gibby; I’m not seeking salvation from you. My opinion is that you envy the wealth, not the man, as shown by your comments about DT. Your faith and your sins are between God and you, only He knows what is in your heart. Only God knows what is in DT’s heart, that’s all I’m saying; you do not know what God’s plans are for DT. If you want to keep on judging DT and spreading malicious gossip, then that is between God and you!

          • GibbyD

            My comments were concerning a man, Donald Trump, who professes to be a Christian so that he can use that to his advantage to deceive some nominal “Christians” to support his quest for power. He professes that he is a Christian but has never , by his own profession , ever repented of his sin. If you have never repented toward God , then your faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ, means nothing. (Acts 20:21).

            And God has led me to obey Him by warning the sheep about the wolf in sheep’s clothing, Donald Trump. I do know what God’s plan is for Donald Trump if DT never gets saved .

            There is a difference between ” malicious gossip” and facts that are to be made known because the perpetrator has committed them and because not to make them known may harm others. In this case the the whole country would be harmed. Everything I sited about DT is already known and commonly reported. It is sad that so many are ignoring it. The Democrats will not and that is why we need a better candidate such as Huckabee , Cruz , Santorum , and or Carson.

            “But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.” ( John 10:12)KJB.

            “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.” ( 2 Timothy 4:2)KJB

          • Desertcatn

            Yep, why do we need God, when we have Gibby; who knows men’s hearts and is set up to judge? I guess God was wrong, according to you, when He used Saul, who had been persecuting Christians? King David ruined his chances to be used by God, but God used him anyway, I guess God was wrong again there. According to you, God can only use men approved by Gibby!

          • GibbyD

            Both Saul/ Paul and King David were sorry about their sins and repented . Donald Trump has said he has never had anything to ask forgiveness for and has in his own words told us that he has never repented.

            If you want to know who God accepts and for Whom He uses , it is spelled out again very clearly in The WORD of God, The Bible.

            “But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.” ( James 4:6)KJB

            “The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.” ( Psalm 25:9)KJB

          • Desertcatn

            I guess you would know, you know Donald Trump’s heart, I don’t.

          • GibbyD

            “…. for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.” ( Matthew 12:34)KJB

            “A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.” ( Luke 6:45)KJB

          • Desertcatn

            I have no interest in further discussing this with you!

          • maranathagen67

            By their fruit ye shall know them….

          • Desertcatn

            This is true, but we don’t know everything about a person, we don’t know their hearts or what God has planned for them.

          • maranathagen67

            Time to go and cast my vote here in the Federal election… something to consider below:
            An important message for those who have the opportunity and privilege of casting their vote in the upcoming Canadian election. Read carefully and slowly, asking God to grant you wisdom in understanding and subsequently seeking His will in making your decision. The author of this article is a US citizen for whom I am grateful in directing our attention to this critical and timely issue. Can True Christians Be Liberal?
            My husband and I attended a church back in 2008 which was predominately black.The senior pastor was black as well. We loved that church. The worship experience was wonderful, and the preaching that we heard seemed solidly-based in Scripture. There was a prayer service on Wednesday nights that was always packed out. We had never been in a church that seemed to love the Lord like this one. The presidential election campaign was well underway. We were alarmed at what we were finding out about Obama. He had close ties with Planned Parenthood. His voting record in the Senate was deemed even to the left of Ted Kennedy. He had ties with the unrepentant home grown terrorist, Bill Ayers. He attended a church which proclaimed Black Liberation, a theology that serves not to reconcile and unite blacks with the larger cultural, but to keep them separate. In my mind I thought, “Surely, these people will not vote for Obama.” Well, I was dead wrong. One night I went online and searched out my pastor’s name. He was well-known for writing many books, so I thought I would find something about his life. I came upon a website which was all about politics from a “black”perspective. Our pastor, Pastor David, had been interviewed along with a black woman who was the head of Black Conservatives of America. I listened in horror, as my pastor spoke about Obama as if he was a god. The conservative woman was talking all about his lack of character and ties to Planned Parenthood. She said that although the black community would love to see their first black president, it was the heart and character of the person that was of more importance than the color of his or her skin. The next morning I called my church to speak with Pastor David. He and I spoke for well over an hour about Obama. He had the nerve to ask me, “Are you one of the white people who think that Obama is the Antichrist?” I could not even dignify that with a response. I realized that he was skirting the important issues of which I spoke, and he wanted to discredit me. I asked him if he was aware of Obama’s stand on abortion. He said that he was, but that the idea of America voting in their first black president was the most exciting thing he had ever encountered. I was horrified. Needless to say, we stopped attending that church. After the election, that pastor wrote a letter to his church on their website. He spoke about a “White woman who just couldn’t be happy with them that America had their first black president.” Can a true Christian vote for the party that supports abortion up to the time of birth? Can a true Christian vote for a party who booed God at their Convention? Can a true Christian vote for a party which believes in and promotes same sex marriage? I say NO. You cannot be a Christian liberal. That is like saying, “A Jewish Nazi.” It does not work. Exodus 20:13 says: “You shall not murder.”
            What is abortion if not murder?
            It is taking the life of an innocent baby. The liberal Democrats scream about a woman’s right to “choose” abortion. They say that she has control over her own body. Well I have news for them: When she conceived, there are now two bodies – not just her own. The Word of God says:
            Psalm 139:14: “I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;Wonderful are Your works, and my soul knows it very well” Jeremiah 1:5: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.” We were made and fashioned by His hand. From the time we were conceived, we have a soul. Abortion IS murder. Let’s look at what the Word says about homosexuality:
            Genesis 19:4-9: “Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter; 5 and they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them.” But Lot went out to them at the doorway, and shut the door behind him, and said, “Please, my brothers, do not act wickedly.” Now behold, I have two daughters who have not had relations with man; please let me bring them out to you, and do to them whatever you like; only do nothing to these men, inasmuch as they have come under the shelter of my roof.” But they said, “Stand aside.” Furthermore, they said, “This one came in as an alien, and already he is acting like a judge; now we will treat you worse than them.” So they pressed hard against Lot and came near to break the door.” Leviticus 18:22: “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.” Leviticus 20:13: “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood guiltiness is upon them.” Romans 1:24-27: “Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.” 1 Corinthians 6:9-11: “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.” Paul said, “Such were some of you, but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God” (1 Corinthians 6:11). 1 Timothy 1:9-10: “Realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching.” Folks, these Scriptures are clear. There is no room for various interpretations! Our God detests the act of homosexuality. He LOVES the person, but the act is detestable to Him. His will is that the person repent of this behavior, and come to Him for salvation! If we are truly born-again from above, and love the Lord with all of our hearts, then we cannot justify voting for a liberal party. They ridicule and laugh at Christians. How can anyone say he or she is a Christian and yet vote for liberals? And so blatantly go against the Word of God! Recently, the mayor of Houston demanded that pastors hand over their sermons about homosexuality. She said that they needed to be sure they were correct (I say politically correct) and if not, they would be corrected. What? THIS is what happens when liberals get into power. Being raised in a Jewish home, we were expected to be liberal and vote Democratic always. When I was born-again in 1983, almost immediately I realized that the platform of the Democratic Party was in direct conflict with the Word of God in almost every area. My mother was distraught over my becoming a conservative. She even told me that she could accept me believing in Jesus more than knowing that she gave birth to a conservative! Brothers and sisters in Christ, if you have made the error of voting for liberals in the past, PLEASE repent of this and go before the Lord. If you know of other Christians who have made the mistake of voting for liberals – show them this article. Direct them to the Scriptures referenced here. I pray that Christians in America would fall to their knees and ask God to bless this country again. We are in trouble. 2 Chronicles 7:14: “If My people who are called by My name shall humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from Heaven, and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.” Our Founding Fathers would weep if they saw what is taking place in America today. MARANATHA!
            Isaiah 5:20… “Woe to those who call evil good!” ********************
            To my Canadian friends: Are we any better off than those who live south of the border in the USA? Take heed as we consider our responsibility before a holy God in marking our ballot and choosing a government to rule our great nation on October 19, 2015! To vote responsibly is to respect and reverence our God infinitely and obey His revealed will unashamedly! The question is, “Will we do so and be blessed with a clear conscience?” “Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord!”

            —————————————-
            From: “Disqus”
            Sent: Friday, October 9, 2015 1:32 AM
            To: [email protected]
            Subject: Re: Comment on Video Shows ‘ Prosperity’ Preachers Kenneth Copeland, Paula White Laying Hands on Donald Trump for Presidency “This is true, but we don’t know everything about a person, we don’t know their hearts or what God has planned for them.”
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            Desertcatn

            This is true, but we don’t know everything about a person, we don’t know their hearts or what God has planned for them.
            1:32 a.m., Friday Oct. 9 | Other comments by Desertcatn

            Reply to Desertcatn

            Desertcatn’s comment is in reply to maranathagen67:

            By their fruit ye shall know them….

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          • Desertcatn

            That’s for sure, the liberals have brought a stain on the soul of the country, with their ghoulish behavior.

          • maranathagen67

            Very good point, GibbyD…. deception or discernment… which will it be?

          • Ruby F Brown

            The two ineligibles only can put Donald down and use small trivial stuff to ridicule him about because they have no substance to speak of. They lie and cheat and have no accomplishments to speak of so all they do is ATTACK.

          • Ruby F Brown

            He is a businessman. Most businessmen I’ve ever known or heard about are about their own interests. Trump has never been president or a political figure so we DO NOT KNOW what he would do as pres. We can only hope he will use his business sense and clean up waste and fraud and do many things as a business would to pay down our national debt and to create an economy that will benefit all. All the others in the establishment have been and ARE about their own interests for sure. That’s why we have a MESS!

          • GibbyD

            Trump has said that there is nothing that he has ever had to ask God forgiveness for . The man was a unashamed fornicator before his three marriages and a three time adulterer while he was married. And again, he says there is nothing he has ever needed to ask God forgiveness for ? He also used eminent domain laws to steal people’s properties for his own personal profit. Trump is also on record as saying that he would be interested in dating his own daughter if he were not her father. Is that your idea of a Christian?

          • Desertcatn

            Sources, please!

          • GibbyD

            I sent the video from youtube if they will allow it . The part about dating his daughter , he said on The View , a tv show. Here is the exact quote. ” “It would be really disappointing — not really — but it would depend on what’s inside the magazine. I don’t think Ivanka would do that, although she does have a very nice figure. I’ve said if Ivanka weren’t my daughter, perhaps I’d be dating her.” Snopes confirms this .

          • Desertcatn

            Yeah, sure, Snopes are liberal hacks and that is a really sick accusation, you are willing to get pretty low

          • GibbyD

            It is not a matter of me ” getting pretty low” It is a matter of Trump saying such a perverted thing. He may have said it in jest but it still shows no discretion or wisdom to even kid about the thing like that. There is no dispute that he said it.

          • Desertcatn

            It is pretty low and I don’t trust Snopes, they have an agenda, but it’s between you and God!

          • GibbyD

            THEN JUST GO TO GOOGLE AND LISTEN TO TRUMP YOURSELF !!!!!!! I AM TELLING YOU THE TRUTH THAT TRUMP SAID WHAT HE SAID . i HEARD HIM SAY IT . GO TO THE VIDEO AND WATCH IT YOURSELF !!!!

          • Desertcatn

            No thank you, if you want to spread that garbage, it’s between you and God!

          • GibbyD

            Then you admit that Trump said it . You made it sound as if he didn’t implying that I was not telling the truth. Trump has never repented toward God and or placed his faith and trust toward The LORD Jesus Christ ( Acts 20:21)KJB. Trump is NOT born again. ( John 3:3; 1st Peter 1:23 ; 2nd Corinthians 5:17)KJB

            On March 6, 2006, to promote The Apprentice, Donald Trump and his daughter Ivanka appeared on ABC talk show The View. Cohost Star Jones kicked off the interview by asking what Mr. Trump would do if Playboy put Ivanka on the cover of its magazine.

            “This is going to be an interesting answer,” Ivanka, in a moment of foresight, predicted.

            She did not know the half of it. Trump’s answer would become something of a legend and has been discussed ad nauseam this summer in the wake of Trump’s presidential candidacy. The incident was widely reported on in 2006; for whatever reason, the clip never made it online to Something Awful, or eBaum’s World, or another early video hosting site.

            Well, we tracked down the footage and would like to share it with the world.

            “I don’t think Ivanka would do that [pose for nude photographs] inside the magazine,” Trump says, speaking for his daughter. “Although she does have a very nice figure. I’ve said that if Ivanka weren’t my daughter, perhaps, I would be dating her.”

            And then, as the words he had just spoken formed meaning in his mind, Trump asked: “Is that terrible?”

            Joy Behar asks “Who are you, Woody Allen?” Everyone laughs, including Donald Trump, who remarks “That’s very good.” To be fair, Trump has so far avoided marrying his daughter, unlike Allen, who has been a very interesting Google alert subject for the last year and a half.

            In response to this comments on The View, Trump’s people issued a statement that the Donald was “absolutely joking” and “making fun of himself for his tendency to date younger women.” This would not be the last time Trump’s people issued a clarifying statement: Trump has made numerous questionable comments in other television appearances that have lead to spokespeople scrambling to save face.

            This would also not be Trump’s final appearance on The View: The real estate mogul would later appear in 2011 to ask why President Obama doesn’t show his actual birth certificate, truly getting his political ambitions in motion.

          • Desertcatn

            Do not put words in my mouth, sicko!

          • GibbyD

            What is sick is someone who professes to be a Christian but has respect of persons because of someone’s material wealth , ignoring their evil life and sin, Ignoring what comes out of the mouth of the wicked. Shame on you.

          • Desertcatn

            You know so much about others hearts, wow! What do we need God for, when we have Gibby!

          • GibbyD

            “For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” ( Hebrews 4:12)KJB.

            “Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right.” ( Proverb 20:11)KJB

            “But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.” ( 1st Corinthians 2:10)KJB. —— This passage is primarily about the things God is preparing for his redeemed ones in Heaven but the Spirit works just the same to lead us into all truth about many things.

          • Desertcatn

            You would know, you seem to put yourself above God, knowing who he should choose to anoint.

          • GibbyD

            David Boaz of the Cato Institute has an excellent article summarizing Donald Trump’s shameful history of promoting eminent domain abuse for the purpose of seizing property from homeowners and businesses who refuse to sell to him:

            For more than 30 years Vera Coking lived in a three-story house just off the Boardwalk in Atlantic City. Donald Trump built his 22-story Trump Plaza next door. In the mid-1990s Trump wanted to build a limousine parking lot for the hotel, so he bought several nearby properties. But three owners, including the by then elderly and widowed Ms Coking, refused to sell.

            As his daughter Ivanka said in introducing him at his campaign announcement, Donald Trump doesn’t take no for an answer.

            Trump turned to a government agency – the Casino Reinvestment Development Authority (CRDA) – to take Coking’s property….

            Peter Banin and his brother owned another building on the block. A few months after they paid $500,000 to purchase the building for a pawn shop, CRDA offered them $174,000 and told them to leave the property. A Russian immigrant, Banin said: “I knew they could do this in Russia, but not here. I would understand if they needed it for an airport runway, but for a casino?”

            Ultimately, as Boaz notes, Trump and the CRDA lost in court in CRDA v. Banin, an early victory for the Institute for Justice – the public interest law firm that later litigated Kelo v. City of New London and other landmark property rights cases.

            As Boaz notes, this was not the only time that Trump sought to use eminent domain to seize property from unwilling owners. In 1994, he also lobbied the city of Bridgeport to condemn five small businesses so he could build an office and entertainment complex that he absurdly claimed would turn Bridgeport into a “national tourist destination.”

            On this issue, unlike most others, Trump has been consistent over time. When the Supreme Court narrowly upheld “economic development” takings that transfer property to private parties in the 2005 Kelo case, the ruling was widely denounced on both left and right. But Trump defended it stating that “I happen to agree with it 100%. if you have a person living in an area that’s not even necessarily a good area, and … government wants to build a tremendous economic development, where a lot of people are going to be put to work and … create thousands upon thousands of jobs and beautification and lots of other things, I think it happens to be good.” The feral cats who currently occupy the condemned land probably agree. Trump did not merely claim that the decision was legally correct; he argued that it was “good” to give government the power to forcibly displace homeowners and small businesses and transfer their property to influential developers on the theory that doing so might promote “economic development.”

            Both the Kelo case and Trump’s efforts to benefit from eminent domain exemplify a longstanding pattern under which that power is used to take land away from the political weak and transfer it to influential private interests. In the long run, as cities like Detroit have learned, such assaults on property rights undermine development far more than they promote it.

          • Desertcatn

            So who have you deemed worthy of being President? Because any one of them can be picked apart. We need a fighter, not someone who wants to bring more refugees in and allow amnesty to go forth.

          • GibbyD

            Huckabee and Cruz are good choices. Even Rubio , Santorum and Carson are better than Trump. None have a plan that would allow any illegal immigrant to gain citizenship unless they went back to their own county first and get in the back of the line of everyone else wishing to immigrate here legally. They would also have to pay fines . Huckabee , Cruz and others in the GOP are fighters . I would not want someone of the establishment being nominated and i do not believe conservatives will allow it again.

          • Desertcatn

            Dream on!

          • Ruby F Brown

            That’s true – Mormonism is one of the most horrific cults ever. Believing that Jesus was the brother of Lucifer, believing they can become gods themselves, it’s unbelievable how anyone with a pea size brain could be suckered into something as weird and crazy as Mormonism. They rape and engage in incest in the temple…..evil !

          • http://www.trib-ready.net Jeremiah Nahvee

            Christ says judge righteous judgment. The word says scripture is used for reproof and rebuke. The word says Paul withstood Peter to his face because he knew Peter was to blame for being a hypocrite. People are not infallible because they are popular teachers. King Solomon was godly once, also. David was godly and was an adulterer and murderer;
            1 Kings 13:26 And when the prophet that brought him back from the way heard thereof, he said, It is the man of God, who was disobedient unto the word of the LORD: therefore the LORD hath delivered him unto the lion, which hath torn him, and slain him, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake unto him. The issue is if the person who say they are a follower of Christ, following Christ in what they are doing at the moment, and what are the consequences if they are not.

        • Danae D.

          You are not the judge!

        • Linda Arnett

          He certainly didn’t use godly wisdom with going along with the recording of this meeting. He should have known that he was being used. Only God knows his heart. I don’t believe he is in the same class as the others.

          • Desertcatn

            DT is a man, none of them are perfect, but at least he speaks from the heart!. Maybe he made a mistake or maybe this was meant to be shown and discussed. God has his purposes for things that are shown.

      • Karen Osterblom

        Omg some of these posters are in serious need of help. Kenneth Copeland got me through a lot. I praise God for his teaching on FAITH. Pastor Jeremiah has great teaching as well as Jeffers.

        • Laurence Charles Ringo

          My question is: How much did you pay Copeland,Karen?

          • Danae D.

            My question to you is, “how much did you pray for the truth?”

          • Laurence Charles Ringo

            The TRUTH is Jesus Christ,and Him crucified,Karen.Are you trying to be cute,or has the bogus pseudo-interpretations of that hireling and scam artist Copeland so warped your soul that Copeland has become YOUR “truth”? Don’t bother with a reply– It’s obvious.Sad.

          • Danae D.

            You have totally missed the point. Your point is not worth arguing about. I have posted my perspective with Bro. Nick, and with JINGJING39 if you care to understand…

          • Ruby F Brown

            Our spirit bears witness with their spirit. Our spirit warns us if someone else’s spirit is not of God. My spirit says “RUN” when I hear Copeland’s voice on tv. I can’t grab the remote fast enough when I hear his voice.

        • edwitness

          Karen,
          His teaching on the fact that he is a god is as blasphemous as it gets. Copeland has gone completely off the rails. Sorry, but there is nothing Biblical about his teaching.
          Hank Hanegraf has a great exposé on all of the false “word of faith” preachers. It’s called Christianity in Crisis. No matter what you might think of Hank, this cd will shake you if you think Copeland and those who teach the false doctrines are legit.
          Listen and learn.
          Blessings:-}

        • GibbyD

          whether or not they are good teachers is beside the point . The problem is that they should not have been seen as pandering to a billionaire politician that used those “ministers” to his own advantage for publicity in order to deceive many and prop up himself in the eyes of some Christians.

          • Ruby F Brown

            I doubt seriously if Trump called that bunch of heretics and asked them to meet with him. It would shock me greatly to learn if he did. I feel they used an opportunity to go there and have it broadcast to edify their huge egos. They used him and he was too nice to say no. I think the left sent them his way to have something to hold over his head when the facts finally come out about Ted Cruz’s affiliation with the K. Copelands’ types that push the SEVEN MOUNTAIN DOMINION cult. Ted’s father is busy daily spewing the false doctrine that Ted is an “anointed king” of the Dominion to win the world for Christ. They are a Hitler type of movement who want to force all to convert and rid the world of sin SO JESUS CAN RETURN. Well I think God has taken care of how things will end and he didn’t say in His Word for us to kill sinners and clean up the earth, set up his Kingdom here so Jesus can appear. Nope, not at all. We have no control of when Jesus comes back.

          • GibbyD

            I read that Trump invited them. I have not read ANYWHERE that Cruz believes as you have stated.

          • Ruby F Brown

            Keep reading – you’ll figure it out. If Ted weren’t involved why would he stand with a dozen preachers laying hands on him anointing him to be a “king” in this dominion theology. With Rafael traveling across the nation daily appearing on all talk shows and Christian stations – why would Ted allow this if Rafael isn’t speaking FOR him? Ted’s campaign reimburses some travel expenses for Rafael ?? is that not being tied into it? Rafael declares on several videos I’ve watched, that Ted is anointed by God to be the next president. He tells in one video about praying after a church service in the pastor’s office for a long time & Ted allegedly surrenders to God saying ” Here am I, God, use me”. If that were an ordinary Christian church that honored the true Word of God I would be 100% in agreement with this and PTL for it, but their theology is non-biblical – it’s deceiving – it’s a satanic cult. Satan has a counterfeit for everything God does. These people are deceived and are wanting to force this theology on the entire world. If Ted was not invoved, he would shut up his father and send him home to stay out of his campaign and he would admit to the public his stance on this religion – either admitting or denying it. He is said to be a Sou Baptist. But the folks entangled in this doctrine are from all different denominations…they just buy in to the doctrine of 7 Mountain Dominion.

          • GibbyD

            Since Ted Cruz is a member of a Southern Baptist Church , he is probably pre-mil, pre-trib. I do not believe he thinks the world has to be ” made ready” for the LORD’s Appearing . The Southern Baptists would have exposed him as heretical if he did . The following is his testimony.

            “My faith journey began when I was a young child. When I was 3 years old, my father left my mother and me. At the time, we were living in Calgary, Canada, where my parents owned a small business. Neither of them were Christians, and both were drinking far too much.

            My dad decided he didn’t want to be married anymore and he didn’t want to be a father to his toddler son. So he got on a plane and flew to Texas. I don’t remember those lonely months without my dad in the home, but surely they were stressful on my mom, as she turned to drinking even more.

            Thankfully, after living several months in Houston, a colleague from the oil and gas business invited my dad to come a Bible study. The Bible study met at the home of a local life insurance agent. And for whatever reason my father went to the Bible study and he sat and listened. And what struck him more than anything else was the peace that everyone there had. He said they all had challenges, they all had problems. He remembers one woman in particular who described how her son would beat her to try to get money for drugs, and yet she and the other people at that Bible study had what the Scripture calls “a peace that passes understanding.” And my father couldn’t understand it, couldn’t understand where that came from, but he knew he wanted it.

            So he kept asking questions and they said: “You know what, our pastor’s coming tomorrow night to the house. Do you want to come back tomorrow night, and you can ask our pastor these questions?” So my Dad said, “Alright,” and he came back the next night.

            Now my father at that time was a young man. He was an atheist. He was a scientist. And he was convinced he knew everything. He spent four hours arguing with the pastor. “What is this religion nonsense?” “Only the weak-minded would believe that.” And he argued over and over and over until 11 that night. Finally my Dad said, “Alright what about the man in Tibet who’s never heard of Jesus?”

            Very wisely, the pastor didn’t take the bait. He said, “Rafael, I don’t know about the man in Tibet. But you have heard of Jesus. What’s your excuse?” My Dad said that hit him like a sledgehammer, and he dropped to his knees in that living room and he gave his life to Jesus. He was baptized that next Sunday, and then he went and got in the car and drove to the airport and bought a ticket and flew back to Calgary.

            He flew back to my mother and me. You know, a lot of people ask if faith is real. I can tell you, in my life, if it were not for the transformative love of Jesus Christ, I would have been raised by a single mom without my father in the house.

            After my dad became a Christian, we all moved together to Houston. And seeing the amazing transformation in her husband, my mom became a Christian within a year as well. Thus, by age 4, I was blessed to be being raised in a Christian home with two strong (but new) believers as parents.

            I was raised in the church. Each night, my dad would read with me from our children’s Bible. We’d memorize Bible verses, and compete to see who could do the best. We’d act out scenes from the Old Testament. We attended Clay Road Baptist Church, pastored by the same Brother Gaylon Wiley who had led my father to the Lord.

            When I was 8 years old, I went to our church’s summer camp, along (with) my cousin Bibi. At the invitation, tears streaming down my face, Bibi and I both walked down and gave our lives to Jesus.

            And it changed my life. To have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, to know that God’s only Son died to pay for my sins, that I was fallen that I am redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, nothing is more important to me. I am a new creature in Christ, and it central to who I am today.

            I couldn’t run for president without relying heavily on my faith. When I have doubts, He comforts me. When I am weak, He gives me strength. From the day we launched the campaign, Heidi and I have prayed simply that His will would be done. Each day, we try not to seek His hand (asking for help winning the race), but rather to seek His face (praying that his love and glory would be seen every day in the campaign).

            And it is the agape love of God that helps our two little girls (not to mention Heidi and me) endure the extended time with us on the road, away from the two of them. Sometimes Facetime on our iPhones is just not enough, and prayer helps us get through those struggles.

            When I fight to defend religious liberty, it’s not purely a constitutional matter; it’s a lifelong passion and personal commitment. When I stand to defend life and marriage, it is a core tenet of my faith. And when I lead the fight for Israel, it both profoundly benefits our national security and also honors God’s promise in Genesis 12:3.

            One of the very best aspects about running for president is that you get to travel the country and meet amazing people, thousands of believers who are passionate and hungry to turn our nation around. A few months back, we did a really big rally in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. Couple thousand people, it was a wonderful event.

            Unbeknownst to me, Brother Gaylon Wiley—the pastor who had led my dad to the Lord and had baptized me as a Christian—was now retired and living in Tennessee. Much to my surprise, he came to our event.

            I hadn’t seen Brother Wiley in 34 years. I was 10 years old the last time I saw him. Now, not much rattles me, but I have to tell you, it choked me up something powerful. I had tears in my eyes, to see him after so many years. Afterward, I gave him a really long hug, and said, “Thank you, thank you for that night in 1975 sharing the gospel to my father.” He simply pointed upward and said, “To God be the glory.”

            But I continued, trembling as spoke, “If you hadn’t shared the gospel that night, my entire life would have been different. I would have been raised by a single mom. She likely would never have known Christ, which means, in all probability, I wouldn’t either. Living without my father in the house, and without Jesus in my life, I would have been far more likely to make bad decisions, whether turning to drinking or drugs or even worse. And I never would have met my wife, Heidi, a beautiful Christian woman who was the daughter of missionaries, which means we never would have been able to raise our daughters Caroline and Catherine in a Christian home, where they are taught the Word of God each day.”

            “All from your sharing the gospel to my father at 11 at night on April 15, 1975. Ripples in a pond, lives changed for three generations. Thank you so very much for heeding the call. For spreading the Good News.”

          • Ruby F Brown

            I’ve heard all that. Some say his whole story is a lie. He was involved with a group of other Cubans in gun running when Castro & Bastista were battling. GHW Bush brought them to TX. Then JFK & Bobby K. were killed – Cruz took off for Canada. GHW Bush is said to have had JFK murdered bec he was trying to warn USA about the secret societies & Shadow Government – Illuminati. Rafael is teaching the 7 Mountain Doninion doctrine to all the Pentecostal churches he is visiting. There are videos where he & other pentecostal preachers (K. Copeland & others) are laying hands on Ted and anointing him to be a king of a dominion. ( If he wasn’t into this he would not be letting them anoint & pray such prayers over him.) He’s not going to look in the camera and tell Americans that he believes that Christians are to rule the world by their beliefs and set up a Kingdom. The Kingdom they are working on is for anti-christ. Keep searching & digging – you’ll find out.

          • GibbyD

            Nope. You have believed a lie. Cruz is a dispensationalist and does not believe as Pat Robertson and other heretical teachers that Christians will rule this sin cursed world without first that second rider on a white horse first arriving to reign for a thousand years. Cruz recognises the first rider on a white horse with a bow in his hands , to be that wicked one.

            What you are doing is called casting false railing accusations and speaking evil of others that you know NOTHING about.

            If there is anyone being set up and ” anointed” by apostates and heretics, it is Trump. Trump has many underworld connections and associations but because he has lots of money , the charismatic and prosperity crowd is falling all over one another to gain favor from him. Their God is money and their love and support of Trump is evidence of it . Of the remaining candidates , only Cruz is a professed born again Bible believing Christian. Cruz did not chose his dad’s denomination , he chose a southern Baptist Church. He is not going to shorten his life or make it hard by dissing his dad. Stop the false accusations and be honest as to why you are trying to stain the reputation of Senator Ted Cruz.

          • Ruby F Brown

            I know what I’ve read and heard on videos and I know what the Seven Mountain Dominion theory is. WHO MADE YOU AN AUTHORITY ON THE TRUTH? I DON’T SEE ANY PROOF TO BACK UP YOUR STORY.

          • GibbyD

            “WHO MADE YOU AN AUTHORITY ON THE TRUTH?”– My training, background , education and experience. Besides that , I have been born again for over 35 years , have The Holy Spirit to guide me and the Promise from God, as a son of God, to be able to discern right from wrong as I read , study and meditate upon The Word Of God daily. By God’s Grace, I stay in fellowship weekly at least twice a week as i am gathered together in Jesus’s Name with other believers for worship, instruction and breaking Bread. The LORD also leads me each day to spend at least and hour in prayer but enjoy the continual conversation with God as we commune, praying without ceasing.

            “I DON’T SEE ANY PROOF TO BACK UP YOUR STORY.”– It seems to me that you are the one telling a story and have not provided any proof for your accusations. You do realize , don’t you, that the definition of the word “devil” is “accuser”. The Devil is the accuser of the Brethren. The LORD warns those that claim to be His , not to be a railer.

          • Ruby F Brown

            I am happy to know that you are such a wonderful knowledgeable intelligent Christian and know everything there is to know, moreso than any other Christian. Do you have a blue ribbon to pin on yourself? Have you studied the Bible on “humility”? Don’t sound like it. You have a spirit of “know it all”…..or “I know a lot more than you do”. My, my. Since I’m not as smart as you perhaps I need to forget everything I’ve learned as a Christian for the past 43 years and follow you. What could we name our cult?

          • GibbyD

            YOU asked the question, so I answered it . If you will re-read what I said , I am sure you noticed that I said , BY THE GRACE OF GOD !!!!

            Instead you play the accuser of the brethren. That’s the devil’s job Ruby. Why do you want to help that old snake for?

            Concerning “knowing” anything ? I defer to (1st Corinthians 8:2)KJB. “And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.” Maybe you should memorize it. The Bible tells us that those things we have learned , that we are to hold on to them and obey them.

            If you have learned anything in your 43 years of profession of being a Christian, why don’t you practice the part about not being a gossip and spreading false accusations and lies about others? You speak evil of someone that you have not provided ANY proof about. Give it up Ruby , you have been seen for what you are attempting to do. Are you a Trump supporter ? If so , then that tells me allot about the genuineness of your Christian profession. What is your reasons for trying to stain a man’s reputation by what his dad may or may not be involved with. I am sure your dad was a wonderful person but would you want anyone to link you so closely to him that they equate EVERYTHING he believes with what you believe?

            There is NOTHING that you have falsely accused Senator Cruz of that has any basis in fact. It is a sick , evil and I say very perverse thing for someone to attack someone that , so far , has evidenced nothing but REAL conservative values , intelligence and a no compromise conviction as to what is right. Your man Trump is a bastard according to (Hebrews 12:8)KJB. Psalm 73 describes him very well and Psalm 73:12 hits the nail on the head for what he is. Those that follow and support him, have allot to answer to God about.

          • GibbyD

            It is also important to note that Trump willingly hosted this event at , I am sure, the suggestion of his very good friend , the heretic Paula White. The news article and story is found in a very liberal source to boot, The Daily Beast.

        • http://www.trib-ready.net Jeremiah Nahvee

          Having great teachings is not the issue. Did KC get you through a lot, or should the praise go to Christ? Word of faith is not scriptural, if it were, would the apostles have been killed? There are word of faith ministries and churches in Africa and yet many Christians are being tortured and killed. Would Calvin and Catholics been able to kill the people of God that they were responsible for killing.Were there those who considered these to be “great men of God” also?
          God is God, and His word will accomplish what He has set it to accomplish. People come to Christ regardless of us. Christ promises to save everyone who comes to HIM. King Solomon and David were both great men of God, who fell wayyyyyy short, with Solomon possibly dying in his sin.

        • Milica Djukich

          Agree with you Karen! I have met these MEN OF GOD! They are GOD;S servants! These men were called by Trump to pray for him! Even Billy Graham always prayed for Presidents of the United States! I cant stand it when any MAN or WOMAN of GOD is mocked or made fun if! It says in the BIBLE that we will inherit wealth from the wicked! These are the last days! The prosperity is going for the GOSPEL to be spread, it always has! When you give to GOD for the GOSPEL you get blessed in many ways! AMERICA has turned away from GOD and mocked him! Many civilizations have disappeared! There hearts are heavy for the souls of AMERICA! My PASTOR got down on his knees and begged GOD and said, GOD I beg thee and pray do
          not destroy AMERICA because of all the sin! JESUS said be one as me and my father are one and love another as I have loved you to show them that you are my disciples! The next President of the United States will need GOD or him nor this country will survive! GOD doesnt want anybody poor and if they need help to help the poor! Whenever there is a disaster in any country including this one, it is the faith leaders that go and help even GEORGE CLOONEY said so! Thank GOD for the televangelists, souls that can;t go to church because of their disabities hear the GOSPEL on tv! Heaven has streets of gold and pearly gates,what are we going to tell GOD, why is this up here! Oh my, so sad! I love when GOD blesses me , so I can give and bless others! The BIBLE is true from Genesis to Revelation! GOD BLESS every MAN and WOMAN OF GOD who preaches the GOSPEL! THANK YOU sweet LORD for loving all of us! SAVE AMERICA AND FORGIVE AMERICA!

          • Ruby F Brown

            What about scriptures that say the poor will always be with us. No the prosperity preachers will have a special prepared extra hot place prepared in hell for all the souls they led astray. I would rather beg on the street as to go where they’re going.

          • Milica Djukich

            First we never say people are going to hell! GOD can change anybody! He changed Saul into Paul who was a murderer of Christians, he wrote 2/3 of the BIBLE! I have talked to atheists and whoever GOD wants me to talk to on the computer, and they told me their biggest gripe is so called christians telling them they are going to hell! Did JESUS tell anyone they were going to hell? No he didn;t , he ate with the sinners! He meant those that were poor n the SPIRIT and did not know him! If you are poor how are you going to help the poor! You can give a man a fish, but it is better if you show him how to fish! It is the churches and mine certaintly is,that helps those that need help! When you put GOD first in your life, he rewards you! He has me many a times! You want to see everyone on AMERICA in welfare lines? you know where this nation would go? GOD has great mercy on this nation turning away from him, its worse than SODOM AND GAMORRAH! At least they didnlt know the BIBLE or have it, but I garantee you that if they turn their back on the nation of ISRAEL this nation will be flatter than a potato chip! No one is be told to go to hell, anyone can be saved!

        • Ruby F Brown

          Copeland is as EVIL as they come. You have to be totally empty and a non-thinker to be sucked in by him. His eyes & his voice are dead giveaway that he is not of God but he is of satan. He is a messenger of satan. He makes me cringe. I’m sorry but that my feelings, not meaning to offend you but to call him out for you. Others like him, Joyce Meyer, Paula White, Creflo Dollar, Murdock, most all the TBN preachers. And of course Jan & Paul Crouch ( I know he’s dead now – he was a homosexual and settled out of court with some boy he abused) Jan is very sick in the head. Jim Bakker, Swaggert, Benny Hinn, TD Jakes and many more, some names I know not, but their faces. They are money whores. Take money from the poor and have face lifts, breast enhancements, buy 8000 acre ranches, 10 jets, 4 or 5 mansions. I know God would not approve of this.

      • Shirley temple dancer

        amen I agree

      • Bro. Nick

        According to ‘the Gospel of Popular Opinion’ which has replaced “the scripture of truth” – you are ‘the winner’
        It is my Biblical understanding that we truly are living in ‘the-end-or-the-end times’ – RIGHT NOW – when it was Biblically Prophesied by the Apostle Paul in
        2 Timothy, Chapter 4, KJV:
        [3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine;
        but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
        [4] And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
        .

        • Danae D.

          First of all… what are you talking about? This passage you quote is in fact pretty much the whole Lukewarm church of today, but that includes the whole generation that has been established through several generations of complacency and false teachings. As I have said, I am, frankly, sick and tired of hearing so-called Christians belittling God’s children. Though I may, or may not, agree with what is going on in this article, I do know that there are several in this group who are genuine children of God. How do I know? I know the voice of God. Man is not perfect (which requires grace among the brethren), but by the Spirit should we be led, not by our flesh and carnal thinking (feelings, emotions, and our own ideologies based on these things). This is where we give the devil rein to consume our thoughts and lead our actions as ‘Pharisaical’ “Christians”. Going to God for truth is critical! We as the body are all called to love one another, not to continuously divide and point fingers. This is the devil’s work… It is in fact those who judge God’s own who will be judged by the Almighty. May we be very careful who we call a false teacher or prophet! We will have to answer to God for gossip and slander against His children. Do we understand the consequences to this (see Pro 6:16-19… and there is so much more)? God requires unity in the body, and those who stir up trouble will see trouble! It’s a promise! Today is the day to be awake and ready for our Lord’s return!

          • Bro. Nick

            Please re-read my first comment – for I did not write it casually.

            Real Biblical knowledge and discernment is at an all time low here in the ‘Lukewarm church of Laodiceanism’ here in ‘Amerika’ – but all around the world.
            We should all know and remember that “Lucifer”, “the great dragon”, “that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan” is an extremely “subtil” master counterfeiter – since his deceiving of “Eve” in “the Garden of Eden” thousands of years ago ! ! ! ! ! !
            – AND it would do each of us well to remember and most seriously think about that which Pastor Charles H. Spurgeon wrote over 100 years ago –
            “DISCERNMENT is not knowing the difference between right and wrong.
            It is knowing the difference between RIGHT
            – and ALMOST right.”

            It must be known and remembered that Biblically there are actually very few that call themselves Christians – both ‘preachers’ and ‘followers’ – that actually are “converted”.
            Those few are the Biblical “remnant”, those who truly are “born again” believers and followers of “our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ”.

            There are many examples given to us in “the scripture of truth” about “false prophets” and “false teachers” – Please think about
            – who were the primary enemies of “the Lord Jesus Christ” when He was here the first time – it was those in ‘the religious crowd’ – the ‘preachers’ and the ‘followers’ – of whom there were only a few that were truly “believers”.

            – AND that the apostle Judas Iscariot – who was one of the twelve, and had personally gone out with the other Apostles, and done wondrous works in the name of Jesus – YET it is he who is “the son of perdition”, AND it is he who personally betrayed “Jesus the Christ”.

            – It should be remembered about some of ‘the religious christian followers’ that are written about in 1 John, Chapter 2, KJV:
            [19] They went out from us,
            but they were not of us;
            for if they had been of us,
            they would no doubt have continued with us:
            but they went out,
            that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
            [20] But ye have an unction from the Holy One,
            and ye know all things.
            [21] I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth,
            but because ye know it,
            and that no lie is of the truth.

            – And the Apostle Paul STRONGLY WARNED in 2 Corinthians, Chapter 11, KJV:
            [13] For such are false apostles,
            deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
            [14] And no marvel;
            for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
            [15] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness;
            whose end shall be according to their works.

            – And the Apostle Paul also named specific names in 1 Timothy 1:19-20, KJV:
            “Holding faith, and a good conscience;
            which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
            Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander;
            whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

            – AND “the Lord Jesus Christ” personally gave VERY STRONG WARNING in Matthew, Chapter 7, KJV:
            [15] ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
            . . .
            [21] ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
            but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
            [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord,
            have we not prophesied in thy name?
            and in thy name have cast out devils?
            and in thy name done many wonderful works?
            [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:
            depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
            .

          • Danae D.

            Yes, I agree with pretty much everything you say… but… you have only half of it right. The other half, as God revealed through my own personal experience and revelation, that love is more critical than the ‘Law’, and that accurate discernment comes only by the wisdom, the fear, and the Spirit of God through prayer and supplication…

            1Ti 1:7-10 They want to be teachers of God’s law, but they do not understand their own words or the matters about which they speak
            with so much confidence. 8 We know that the Law is good if it is used as it should be used. 9 It must be remembered, of course, that laws are made, not for good people, but for lawbreakers and criminals, for the godless and sinful, for those who are not religious or spiritual, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the immoral, for sexual perverts, for kidnappers, for those who lie and give false testimony or who do anything else contrary to sound doctrine.

            Jesus said that He did not come to judge, but to save, and we are required to walk in His footsteps [1Pet 2:21-23; 1Tim 1:16; 2Tim 1:13-14]… Later, the Father will judge all [Joh 12:47-48], and the church will be first in the refinement process… He is judge… Jesus also said to the disciples about the Pharisees (the church leaders who judged and persecuted the true children of God), to listen to them, but to not be like them, for they will not see the Kingdom of God.

            Mat 23:1-5 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples. 2 “The teachers of the Law and the Pharisees are the authorized
            interpreters of Moses’ Law. 3 So you must obey and follow everything they tell you to do; do not, however, imitate their actions, because they don’t practice what they preach. 4 They tie onto people’s backs loads that are heavy and hard to carry, yet they aren’t willing even to lift a finger to help them carry those loads. 5 They do everything so that people will see them. Look at the straps with scripture verses on them which they wear on their foreheads and arms, and notice how large they are! Notice also how long are the tassels on their cloaks!

          • Danae D.

            To Bro. Nick

            Examples of false leaders;

            2Jn 1:7-9 Many deceivers have gone out over the world, people who do not acknowledge that Jesus Christ came as a human being. Such a person is a deceiver and the Enemy of Christ. 8 Be on your guard, then, so that you will not lose what we have worked for, but will receive your reward in full. 9 Anyone who does not stay with the teaching of Christ, but goes beyond it, does not have God. Whoever does stay with the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

            These people are those who do not know or believe in the Lord, and, by carnal pride and Satan’s great deceptions, lead the world astray.

            2Pe 2 (All of 2Pet. 2) 1 False prophets appeared in the past among the people, and in the same way false teachers will appear among
            you. They will bring in destructive, untrue doctrines, and will deny the Master who redeemed them, and so they will bring upon themselves sudden destruction. 2 Even so, many will follow their immoral ways; and because of what they do, others will speak evil of the Way of truth. 3 In their greed these false teachers will make a profit out of telling you made-up stories. For a long time now their Judge has been ready, and their Destroyer has been wide awake! (etc., etc., etc.)….

            This passage is much about the last several generations of deception which so many have fallen victim to (due to the churches lack of passion and relationship with the Lord)…. “Once saved always saved”, false “grace” interpretations, pre-trib teachings, and doing away with the Old Testament, these are four of the most significant teachings that have lead the majority of the body to complacent apathy… the ‘lukewarm’ church of today… Many teachers are prey to this dispensation and these main stream teachings, but they are sincere in their beliefs. This is where Mark 13 explains where even the ‘elect’ could be deceived… But God will, at some point soon, expose the remnant you speak of, those who are truly His children; even those who have been deceived for a period of time but repent of their apathy… But we are not to judge them, but judge our own fruits by Jesus’ fruits. We are to lead the lost back to the ‘truth’, otherwise, God’s discipline/ judgment will (and is to) fall on this generation… Then all those (particularly in the church) who do not know how to love as Christ loved; they will not see the Kingdom… (Mat 23:11-13; Mat 5:20; Mat 16:11)

            1Ti 1:3-7 I want you to stay in Ephesus, just as I urged you when I was on my way to Macedonia. Some people there are teaching false doctrines, and you must order them to stop. 4 Tell them to give up those legends and those long lists of ancestors, which only produce arguments; they do not serve God’s plan, which is known by faith. 5 The purpose of this order is to arouse the love that comes from a pure heart, a clear conscience, and a genuine faith. 6 Some people have turned away from these and have lost their way in foolish discussions. 7 They want to be teachers of God’s law, but they do not understand their own words or the matters about which they speak with so much confidence.

            This passage appears to expose the many Pharisees that love to claim their own sanctimonious wisdom as apposed to living in humility as a servant to one another in the body.

            Remember, God knows every heart better than we know our own heart… to see more, see JINGJING39 below…

          • http://www.trib-ready.net Jeremiah Nahvee

            Deuteronomy 16:18 You shall appoint judges and officers for yourself in all your gates which Jehovah your God gives you, tribe by tribe. And they shall judge the people with righteous judgment.

            2 Timothy 4:2 preach the Word, be urgent in season, out of season, CONVICT, WARN, encourage with all long-suffering and teaching.

            Proverbs 15:10 Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and HE THAT HATE REPROOF WILL DIE

            John 3:20 FOR EVERYONE THAT DOES EVIL HATE THE LIGHT, NEITHER DO THEY COME TO THE LIGHT LEST HIS DEEDS BE REPROVED.

            John 7:24 Do not judge according to sight, but JUDGE RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT

            2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

            Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, BUT RATHER REPROVE THEM

          • http://www.trib-ready.net Jeremiah Nahvee

            You are leaving out some other verses of scripture:

            Deuteronomy 16:18 You shall appoint judges and officers for yourself in all your gates which Jehovah your God gives you, tribe by tribe. And they shall judge the people with righteous judgment.

            2 Timothy 4:2 preach the Word, be urgent in season, out of season, CONVICT, WARN, encourage with all long-suffering and teaching.

            Proverbs 15:10 Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and HE THAT HATE REPROOF WILL DIE

            John 3:20 FOR EVERYONE THAT DOES EVIL HATE THE LIGHT, NEITHER DO THEY COME TO THE LIGHT LEST HIS DEEDS BE REPROVED.

            John 7:24 Do not judge according to sight, but JUDGE RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT

            2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

            Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, BUT RATHER REPROVE THEM

          • Danae D.

            I have seen your post… I will respond tomorrow…

          • Danae D.

            I have used the same passages that you have listed, I only edify and
            elaborate on them all the more in depth…

            Deu 16:18-20 “You shall appoint judges and officers in all your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, according to your tribes, and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment. 19 You shall not pervert justice. You shall not show partiality, and you shall not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and subverts the cause
            of the righteous. 20 Justice, and only justice, you shall follow, that you may live and inherit the land that the LORD your God is giving you. Moses explains that God’s Law requires that His people appoint worthy leaders and judges to lead His people with equality, justice, and righteousness… This would be applicable to leaders and judges in the nations… and in the church… But man has become righteous in his own eyes and no longer judges or discerns what is righteous through God’s eyes… Man does what is right in his own eyes, and this is including those who judge and twist the truth by their own perception, not through prayer and supplication, humility and submission….

            Pro 21:2-5 You may think that everything you do is right, but remember that the LORD judges your motives. 3 Do what is right and fair; that pleases the LORD more than bringing him sacrifices. 4 Wicked people are controlled by their conceit and arrogance, and this is sinful. 5 Plan carefully and you will have plenty; if you act too quickly, you will never have enough. (GNB)

            Pro 12:15-16 Fools always think their own way is best, but wise people listen to what others tell them. 16 Fools are easily upset, but wise people avoid insulting others. (ERV)

            Zep 2:1-3 Come together, make everyone come together, O nation without shame; before the Lord sends you violently away in flight like the waste from the grain; before the burning wrath of the Lord comes on you, before the day of the Lord’s wrath comes on you. 3 Make search for the Lord, all you quiet ones of the earth, who have done what is right in his eyes; make search for righteousness and a quiet heart: it may be that you will be safely covered in the day of the Lord’s wrath. (BBE)

          • Danae D.

            To all, whether you consider yourself a Christian or not… take heed to this next passage…

            Rom 2:1-13 Therefore you are without excuse, O man, everyone who judges; for in that in which you judge another, you condemn yourself, for you who judge do the same things. 2 But know that the judgment of God is according to truth on those who practice such things. 3 And, O man, the one judging those who do such things, and practice them, do you think this, that you shall escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, and the forbearance and long-suffering, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But according to your hardness and your impenitent heart, do you treasure up wrath for yourself in a day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each according to his works; 7 indeed to those who with patience in good work are seeking for glory, and honor, and incorruptibility, everlasting life. 8 But to those who indeed disobeying the truth out of self-seeking, and obeying unrighteousness, will be anger and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man who has worked out evil; of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. 10 But He will give glory, honor and peace to every man who works good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.11 For there is no respect of faces with God. 12 For as many as sinned without Law will also perish without Law. And as many as have sinned within Law shall be judged through Law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. (MKJV)

            Easy read version of same passage…

            Rom 2:1-13 So do you think that you can judge those other people? You are wrong. You too are guilty of sin. You judge them, but you
            do the same things they do. So when you judge them, you are really condemning yourself. 2 God judges all who do such things, and we know his judgment is right. 3 And since you do the same things as those people you judge, surely you understand that God will punish you too. How could you think you would be able to escape his judgment? 4 God has been kind to you. He has been very patient,
            waiting for you to change. But you think nothing of his kindness. Maybe you don’t understand that God is kind to you so that you will decide to change your lives. 5 But you are so stubborn! You refuse to change. So you are making your own punishment greater and greater. You will be punished on the day when God will show his anger. On that day everyone will see how right God is to judge
            people. 6 He will reward or punish everyone for what they have done. 7 Some people live for God’s glory, for honor, and for life that cannot be destroyed. They live for those things by always continuing to do good. God will give eternal life to them. 8 But others are selfish and refuse to follow truth. They follow evil. God will show his anger and punish them. 9 He will give trouble and suffering to everyone who does evil–to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 10 But he will give glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does good–to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 11 God judges
            everyone the same. It doesn’t matter who they are. 12 People who have the law and those who have never heard of the law are all the same when they sin. People who don’t have the law and are sinners will be lost. And, in the same way, those who have the law and are sinners will be judged by the law. 13 Hearing the law does not make people right with God. They will be right before him only if they always do what the law says. (ERV)

            I feel the many false prophets, teachers, and leaders, are those who don’t even realize that they are fighting against God Himself… [Act 5:33-39 When the Council heard this, they became furious and wanted to kill them. 34 But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of
            the Law who was respected by all the people, stood up in the Council and ordered the men to be taken outside for a little while. 35 Then he told them, “Fellow Israelis, consider carefully what you propose to do to these men. 36 For in the recent past Theudas appeared, claiming that he was important, and about 400 men joined him. He was killed, and all his followers were dispersed and disappeared. 37 After that man, at the time of the census, Judas the Galilean appeared and got people to follow him. He, too, died, and all his followers were scattered. 38 “I’m telling you to keep away from these men for now. Leave them alone, because if this plan or movement is of human origin, it will fail. 39 However, if it is from God, you won’t be able to stop them, and you may even discover that you are fighting against God!” So they were convinced by him (ISV)].

            These are the ones leading so many others into the ditch with themselves… Don’t do it!!! When everything is no longer about any one of you, but then when everything becomes only about Him, at that time may you discern accurately…

            Furthermore, can we remember that God, our father, hates division in the body? We must realize that as offense or gossip approaches we must cling to God in all His truth, and therefore not buy into the devil’s schemes… It is truly knowing Him and His entire Word that will reveal all truth, and therefore setting us free in our trials and dilemmas, but may we be walking in His righteousness, in His entire
            Covenant Truth, as we abide in Him, seeking all truth, and trust and surrender to Him in our every given situation…

            I said it before, I will not argue with anybody… I know the truth, and it would be my desire that others would know the truth, but that is up to them to seek it and believe it in their own personal relationship with the God of all Truth, of all Might, and of all wonder and Magnificence…

          • Danae D.

            Eph 5:5-15 5 For you know very well that no immoral or impure person, or anyone who is greedy (that is, an idolater), has an inheritance in the kingdom of the Messiah and of God. 6 Do not let anyone deceive you with meaningless words, for it is because of these things that God becomes angry with those who disobey. 7 So do not be partners with them. 8 For once you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light, 9 for the fruit that the light produces consists of every form of goodness, righteousness, and truth. 10 Determine what
            pleases the Lord, 11 and have nothing to do with the unfruitful actions that darkness produces. Instead, expose them for what they are. 12 For it is shameful even to mention what is done by these disobedient people in secret. 13 But everything that is exposed to the light becomes visible, 14 for the light is making everything visible. That is why it says, “Wake up, sleeper! Arise from the dead, and the Messiah will shine
            on you.” 15 So, then, be careful how you live. Do not be unwise but wise, (ISV)
            This passage confronts the backslider, the one who continues to walk in blatant sin, the one who continues to nail Jesus to the cross by his or
            her compromise of the truth and living by the flesh and carnal thinking verses by the Spirit in all truth… There are some very significant scriptures that confront false teachers and leaders, but this is not necessarily one of them. False teachers and leaders typically cannot even see their wickedness…

            If you truly love your brothers and sisters in Christ, you will not be persecuting them. Again, condemnation comes from only one source. If you truly loved your brothers and sisters in Christ, you would show the fruits, you would seek God for wisdom when you know they are in trouble, and you would follow Biblical protocol. This is what loving our
            brothers and sisters in God’s family is all about…

            For all of you who think you’re right in persecuting and condemning God’s children, and in discerning who is of God and who is not, in your own intelligence and perception, you don’t realize what you are doing… Scripture says that none are without sin. Just our physical bodies, all by themselves, are dying daily because of sin. It is the Spirit that lives within that gives us the wisdom, the power, and the strength to die to flesh and carnal living and thinking, but without the Spirit, there is no power, there is no strength… We can only do all things through Him as we walk out our salvation, in Him, but with fear and trembling…

          • Danae D.

            Joh 3:17-21 Because God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s unique Son. 19 And this is the basis for judgment: The light has come into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light because their actions were evil. 20 Everyone who practices wickedness hates the light and does not come to the light, so that his actions may not be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may become evident that his actions have God’s approval.” (ISV)

            I think, when you take the whole passage into perspective, it is very self explicit in its clarity and characterization. This passage is talking about those who receive Him as their Savior, verses those who choose to continue living in the dark, and therefore subject to eternal judgment. Those who continue to live in their own understanding of truth, who continue to abide in conceit and ignorance without submission to the Father (as Christ perversely exemplified), they will be subject to judgment… and this applies to those even in the body who live apposing to the light and truth of genuine love… The Groom is coming for His Spotless Bride, not a condemning “religious” spirit who runs a muck in His family to cause division… Think about it… any good Father would not tolerate this, and this is very explicit in scripture…

            Joh 7:24 Do not judge according to sight, but judge righteous judgment.

            This passage is exactly what I have been talking about… Not judging by your own understanding, by what you see or think, but by the Spirit in all things… In this particular passage, Jesus is speaking to and about the Pharisees who didn’t know who Jesus was, because they really didn’t know God, the One who sent Jesus, He our hope and our Savior [Joh 5:22-30]… Remember, it was the “religious” folk in the church (the Pharisees and Sadducees) who persecuted Jesus, His disciples and Apostles… They didn’t go for the counterfeit ‘religious’, those like themselves; they who hated Jesus and His followers…

            2Ti 3:12-17 12 Everyone who wants to live a godly life in union with Christ Jesus will be persecuted; 13 and evil persons and impostors will keep on going from bad to worse, deceiving others and being deceived themselves. 14 But as for you, continue in the truths that you were taught and firmly believe. You know who your teachers were, 15 and you remember that ever since you were a child, you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching the truth, rebuking error, correcting faults, and giving instruction for right living, 17 so that the person who serves God may be fully qualified and equipped to do every kind of good deed. (GNB)

            Again, scripture must be read and taken into its full context; this is why I bring the whole scripture into perspective for the purpose of exposing its full meaning… Scripture is a double-edged sword, meant to pierce the deepest darkest corners of our own lives and souls… It is not meant to beat others up with it… When we search the Scriptures, we look to see the sin in each our own life, and live by the light as apposed to living in the dark… Then you will know how to love as Christ loved the church… But remember, because of the opposition of truth to man’s flesh and carnal mindset, it is they, as genuine faithful Christians, who endure to the end in faith, truth, and righteousness, who will be persecuted for righteousness sake the same as Christ and His Apostles… It comes with the territory…

          • Danae D.

            2Ti 4:2-8 2 Be preaching the word at all times, in every place; make protests, say sharp words, give comfort, with long waiting and teaching; 3 For the time will come when they will not take the true teaching; but, moved by their desires, they will get for themselves a great number of teachers for the pleasure of hearing them; 4 And shutting their ears to what is true, will be turned away to belief in foolish stories. 5 But be self-controlled in all things, do without comfort, go on preaching the good news, completing the work which has been given you to do. 6 For I am even now being offered, and my end is near. 7 I have made a good fight, I have come to the end of my journey, I have kept the faith: 8 From now on, the crown of righteousness is made ready for me, which the Lord, the upright judge, Will give to me at that day: and not only to me, but to all those who have had love for his revelation. (BBE)

            One can’t just take a few words out of context and build a self proclaimed gospel. In study of this particular passage, we must see that Timothy encourages leaders of the church to teach the whole council of God, and not just the itchy ear compromised teachings, the politically correct, the sugary sweet, candy coated, imitation ‘escapee’ gospel that the hoax of much of the church today has deceptively taken on (and most fall right into it because most don’t truly know God and His Word, nor the full commission of His Truth). Much of the point being made in this scripture is to be sincere in teaching the whole truth without compromise, but also with the entire Gospel in context, such as in love, support, and encouragement, unless one is dealing with arrogance. Then be sharp and make protest… Too many are caught up in their own theologies, their arrogance and pride, their feelings and emotions, their own self proclaimed desires… But Jesus said the most important commandment is to love first the Lord with all your heart, mind, spirit, and soul, then to love your neighbor as such… All the rest of the Commandments depend on these first two… This is where most loose their foundation. Love is the underpinning of the Gospel, and that is the key, but most don’t truly understand that love is what Christ exampled for His people, His church… and now we are this paradigm to illustrate to others…

            The devil is the accuser of the Brethren. Jesus said Himself (explained in other post on this thread…) that He has not yet come to judge, but to save, and we are required to walk in His footsteps [1Pe 2:21-23; 1Ti 1:16; 2Ti 1:13-14]… Later, Jesus will come with the Sword (the entire Word, the whole Truth) to judge all man [Joh 12:47-50; *Rev. 19:11-16*], but the church is first in the refinement process (which has started now!)… He is judge… We are to live our life as Christ lived and loved, and this is the responsibility of the disciple and Apostle. We are only to judge in the body by their fruits, according to the whole council of God’s Word, to discern whether they follow the whole truth or they compromise and mislead by false teachings and personal deceptive beliefs, but you cannot know that if you don’t know the entire Word of God, the voice of God, the Spirit whole leads man into all truth… but to those who seek it!

            Going directly to any person in question, in love first, but in the authority given by the Spirit, by His lead, through prayer and supplication, is what we, as His family, are required to do, but not by our own lead and our own understanding. Anything else is gossip and trouble (see *Prov. 6:16-19*). This is where we see merely by man’s perspective, not deeper by the spirit (Mar 8:33 But Jesus turned around, looked at his disciples, and rebuked Peter. “Get away from me, Satan,” he said. “Your thoughts don’t come from God but from human nature!”). We cannot receive revelation knowledge without first walking in submission and humility, in Christ’s righteousness and integrity, but by love and all truth… She, the church, is caught up in much deception to what she sees, thinks, and based on what she wants to hear and believe, but supported by her feelings, emotions, desires, and self proclaimed proclaimed ideologies. We can do nothing without Him, without prayer and supplication, without humility and submission to hear and to see… Etc., etc…

            Pro 15:9-12 The lifestyle of the wicked is detestable to the LORD, but he loves those who ardently pursue righteousness. 10 Severe punishment awaits anyone who wanders off the path—anyone who despises reproof will die. 11 Since Sheol and Abaddon lie open in the LORD’s presence, how much more the hearts of human beings (He knows every heart)! 12 The arrogant mocker never loves the one who corrects him; he will not inquire of the wise. (ISV)

            This passage is written to all, including you and me. You’re suggestion in this passage is that you are the one to reprove God’s people, when you truly don’t know their hearts, but perhaps you are unable to see the log in your own eye. God is the only judge of hearts, and that is what He seeks after. If any person has aught against another, it is this person’s responsibility to go and make it right with them whether it is their aught against you, or yours against them. This is where your responsibility comes in as a member of the body, in God’s family, within His Kingdom, to go and make amends, not to divide and conquer because of what you ‘think’… This is the devil’s job, and many play devil’s advocate in these last deceptive days… Slander is NOT of God!

          • Danae D.

            I have used the same passages that you have listed, I only edify and
            elaborate on them all the more in depth…

            Deu 16:18-20 “You shall appoint judges and officers in all your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, according to your tribes, and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment. 19 You shall not pervert justice. You shall not show partiality, and you shall not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and subverts the cause

            of the righteous. 20 Justice, and only justice, you shall follow, that you may live and inherit the land that the LORD your God is giving you. Moses explains that God’s Law requires that His people appoint worthy leaders and judges to lead His people with equality, justice, and righteousness… This would be applicable to leaders and judges in the nations… and in the church… But man has become righteous in his own eyes and no longer judges or discerns what is righteous through God’s eyes… Man does what is right in his own eyes, and this is including those who judge and twist the truth by their own perception, not through prayer and supplication, humility and submission….

            Pro 21:2-5 You may think that everything you do is right, but remember that the LORD judges your motives. 3 Do what is right and fair; that pleases the LORD more than bringing him sacrifices. 4 Wicked people are controlled by their conceit and arrogance, and this is sinful. 5 Plan carefully and you will have plenty; if you act too quickly, you will never have enough. (GNB)

            Pro 12:15-16 Fools always think their own way is best, but wise people listen to what others tell them. 16 Fools are easily upset, but wise people avoid insulting others. (ERV)

            Zep 2:1-3 Come together, make everyone come together, O nation without shame; before the Lord sends you violently away in flight like the waste from the grain; before the burning wrath of the Lord comes on you, before the day of the Lord’s wrath comes on you. 3 Make search for the Lord, all you quiet ones of the earth, who have done what is right in his eyes; make search for righteousness and a quiet heart: it may be that you will be safely covered in the day of the Lord’s wrath. (BBE)

          • Ruby F Brown

            Good message Bro Nick!

      • Linda Arnett

        I contacted him and someone from his office said that he doesn’t support DT. However, his prayer certainly sounds like he does. He has to know that DT is not a Christian as he claims. His fruit is far from Christ like. Look at DT’s face. Does he look comfortable? I don’t think so. He fees very out of place because he doesn’t know how to pray. He does not even understand salvation or the meaning of communion. This was just a political ploy to try to score points with real Christians. It didn’t work. It only proves what a fraud he really is.

        • Desertcatn

          You don’t know Donald Trump’s heart, just because you don’t like the man, doesn’t mean he isn’t a Christian.

          • GibbyD

            Trump has said that there is nothing that he has ever had to ask God forgiveness for . The man was a unashamed fornicator before his three marriages and a three time adulterer while he was married. And again, he says there is nothing he has ever needed to ask God forgiveness for ? He also used eminent domain laws to steal people’s properties for his own personal profit. Trump is also on record as saying that he would be interested in dating his own daughter if he were not her father. Is that your idea of a Christian?

          • Desertcatn

            Again, sources please!

          • GibbyD

            google it . It was recorded while he said it in an interview. You must not be investigating too closely. I post the web sites but I do not know if they will allow them on here . The documentary entitled ‘ What’s The Deal’ gives more info about Trump. Do the research , it is easy to find . Also check out what Trump’s first wife accused him of before she was paid off to keep quiet about it .

          • Desertcatn

            Ugly things get said in a divorce, DT’s life is an open book. In the Bible, some of the most broken sinful men were used for great purposes, so DT is in great company, if God has decided to use him.

          • GibbyD

            Those “broken sinful men” were used of God but not before they saw that they were sinners and in need of repentance. Where and when has Trump ever repented of his sin or admitted of his wrongs ?

          • Desertcatn

            Gosh, I don’t know, you would, since you have placed yourself above God.

          • Desertcatn

            You surely would have had the hanging rope out for King David, because of his sin with Bathsheba, but God used King David for great purpose anyway.

          • GibbyD

            Let me know if and when Donald Trump ever has a Psalm 51 experience and then you might have a point. Until then, don’t hold your breath till he does.

          • Desertcatn

            I won’t, because I wouldn’t presume to know, that’s your job.

          • GibbyD

            You can’t find any place where Trump has been sorry for his sin and been contrite.

          • Desertcatn

            It’s between Donald Trump and God, I don’t pretend that I am God.

      • GibbyD

        Yes, he is a good teacher and probably did not know he was going to be seen with those others and be used for publicity by Trump and to Trump’s advantage.

      • http://www.trib-ready.net Jeremiah Nahvee

        BUT, RIGHT NOW, Is what he is doing of God? Even David, Solomon, and Paul fell short.

      • sandra-paquette-

        This is what is so puzzling Jeremiah has been so well respected and he knows the Bible. But why is he getting himself mix in with these faults prophets, Kenneth Copeland of all people and a few others here. Not only that he also had Roma Downey, at his Church and she is into mysticism & RC. As I can see he is going down a dangerous path. How sad.

    • Bro. Nick

      And – We should all know and remember that “Lucifer”, “the great dragon”, “that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan” is an extremely “subtil” master counterfeiter – since his deceiving of “Eve” in “the Garden of Eden” thousands of years ago ! ! ! ! ! !

      – Thus it would do each of us well to remember and most seriously think about that which Pastor Charles H. Spurgeon wrote over 100 years ago –

      “DISCERNMENT is not knowing the difference between right and wrong.
      It is knowing the difference between RIGHT
      – and ALMOST right.”

      —————————————————————–

      As it is written in “the word of the LORD”:

      “Then shall ye return,
      and DISCERN between the righteous
      – and the wicked,
      between him that serveth God
      – and him that serveth him not.”
      (Malachi 3:18, KJB)

      – Capitalization and emphasis of “the word of the Lord” and the CH Spurgeon quote are mine – Bro. Nick
      .

    • Danae D.

      There is only one judge… Go to Him for truth, but be careful how you judge others…

      • JINGJING39

        This is what Jesus said (John 7:24) “Judge not according to the appearance of man, but judge righteous judgement” This mean that we can judge a person according to the word of God, not hypocritically but righteously.

        • Danae D.

          Greatest Commandment…

          Mat 22:36-40 He said, “Teacher, which command in the law is the most important?” 37 Jesus answered, “’Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and most important command. 39 And the second command is like the first: ‘Love your neighbor the same as you love yourself.’ 40 All of the law and the writings of the prophets take their meaning from these two commands.”

          Unity in the body…

          2Jn 1:3-6 May God the Father and Jesus Christ, the Father’s Son, give us grace, mercy, and peace; may they be ours in truth and love. 4 How happy I was to find that some of your children live in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. 5 And so I ask you, dear Lady: let us all love one another. This is no new command I am writing you; it is the command which we have had from the beginning. 6 This love I speak of means that we must live in obedience to God’s commands. The command, as you have all heard from the beginning, is that you must all live in love.

          Do not harm my chosen… (Do you truly know God’s chosen? Even Jesus, the real thing, was a stumbling block to the “religious”!)

          Psa105:14-15 But the Lord did not let anyone mistreat them. He warned kings not to harm them. 15 He said, “Don’t hurt my chosen people. Don’t harm my prophets.”

          How you judge others…

          Mat 7:1-2 “Don’t judge others, and God will not judge you. 2 If you judge others, you will be judged the same way you judge them. God will treat you the same way you treat others; Mat 12:36-37 I tell you that everyone will have to answer for all the careless things they have said. This will happen on the day of judgment. 37 Your words will be used to judge you. What you have said will show whether you are right or whether you are guilty.”; Luk 6:36-37 Give love and mercy the same as your Father gives love and mercy. 37 “Don’t judge others, and God will not judge you. Don’t condemn others, and you will not be condemned. Forgive others, and you will be forgiven.

          You know them by their fruits…

          Mat 7:16-21 You will know these people because of what they do. Good things don’t come from people who are bad, just as grapes don’t come from thorn-bushes, and figs don’t come from thorny weeds. 17 In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, and bad trees produce bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 You will know these false people by what they do. 21 “Not everyone who calls me Lord will enter God’s kingdom. The only people who will enter are those who do what my Father in heaven wants. 1Co 13: 1-13 … 13…And the greatest of these is love.

          Walking in faith…

          2Co 5:7-16 7 Indeed, our lives are guided by faith, not by sight… 9 … our goal is to be pleasing to him. 10 All of us must appear in front of Christ’s judgment seat. Then all people will receive what they deserve for the good or evil they have done while living in their bodies. 11 As people who know what it means to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. God already knows what we are… 12 We are not trying to show you our qualifications again, but we are giving you an opportunity to be proud of us. Then you can answer those who are proud of their appearance rather than their character…. 14 Clearly, Christ’s love guides us… 15 He died for all people so that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for the man who died and was brought back to life for them. 16 So from now on we don’t think of anyone from a human point of view. If we did think of Christ from a human point of view, we don’t anymore.

          I’m sorry, but the only way I was to make my point is to be very thorough in my explanation with scripture as God revealed it to me. I too was judged by the church, but God also pointed out when I had judged someone in the evangelical mainstream media the same as the church had judged me, but not even as bad as so many judge in these threads.

          I won’t argue with anyone, but I know the fate of those who are misled and who mislead others by their own natural perception, even as scripture is portrayed. It is critical to know and abide in and by the Spirit and to discern through His eyes. It is the problem with the church that she truly doesn’t know, or fear, the living God. May we be ready for His soon return! To understand more of my point, see my thread with Bro. Nick above.

  • 123Star

    Whenever a spiritual fight is to be won, it comes threw Prayer and more Prayer!!!
    Wonderful people serving God and they know The Power of God !!!
    We must ask God to forgive our sins, and revisit America again with Conviction.
    Pray, and bind up The Media and demonic strongholds over America. Come Lord Jesus.

    • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

      Come Lord Jesus . Amen!

    • Benny Alminde

      Who is the Jesus you and others pray to…I NEWER HEAR CHRIST

      • Shirley temple dancer

        Maybe you can ask Leonardo Di Caprio while fixing his man bun.
        Who Christ is . He is the one and only LIVING GOD of the Universe
        get a bible.

        • http://teragrambrowne.blogspot.com/ Tera Graham-Browne

          Shirley, while he is getting a Bible, maybe you can get some love.

      • bret

        If you do not know the Lord please Google-Search (Jesus Christ) (born again) and (the sinner’s prayer) and research and learn more. Better still find yourself a good Protestant pastor to help you. But stay away from Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox priests. They will mess you up!

      • 123Star

        Jesus is The name His Father gave Him. Christ means He is The Anointed One !!!

        • bret

          For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him shall not perish but have everlasting life. It is by God’s grave you will be saved through faith in Christ Jesus. For he is the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through him. Whosoever believes on him shall live but whosoever believes not shall be condemned. Because they refused to accept the free gift of God’s one and only beloved Son. For true spirituality comes through Christ Jesus and him alone. Therefore repent and believe and he will reconcile you to the Father in heaven, above whom there is no other. And you will have communion with him through the Holy Spirit and through prayer. For the Father has exalted his Son to the highest place and given him a name above all names. At his name every knee will bow in heaven and on earth and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord. For he is the King of Kings….the Lord of Lords….the resurrection and the life….the Ultimate Universal Truth.

      • bret

        For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him shall not perish but have everlasting life. It is by God’s grace you will be saved through faith in Christ Jesus. For he is the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through him. Whosoever believes on him shall live but whosoever believes not shall be condemned. Because they refused to accept the free gift of God’s one and only beloved Son. For true spirituality comes through Christ Jesus and him alone. Therefore repent and believe and he will reconcile you to the Father in heaven, above whom there is no other. And you will have communion with him through the Holy Spirit and through prayer. For the Father has exalted his Son to the highest place and given him a name above all names. At his name every knee will bow in heaven and on earth and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord. For he is the King of Kings….the Lord of Lords….the resurrection and the life….the Ultimate Universal Truth.

      • Kim Tardie

        ??????

    • Rick

      They know the wealth of bilking thousands of compassionate people of their money. Giving ones blessing to a casino magnate isn’t the pattern of Christ. Jesus condemned hypocrites and that is precisely what these folks represent. Hypocrisy.

      • 123Star

        if you had a close relationship with The Lord Jesus Christ, you would not be Complaining about anything. Your inner battle is to get set free of spiritual darkness. Jesus laid down His life for us, we do the same for the cause of Christ that HIS True Church brings Miracles of all kinds!!! Being grateful to God for everything, will change you and you’ll feel good about yourself…

        • Kim Tardie

          How judgmental…..

      • Ruby F Brown

        I agree with you – but not familiar with the casino magnate. Which one would that be? I think Copeland is pure evil. Jeffries is ok as far as I know. Most of the others are just money hungry and preaching is much easier than physical labor. They’re con artists.

        • Kim Tardie

          Trump is the casino magnate and he filed bankruptcy on his casinos. Perhaps his plan to get America out of debt might include filing bankruptcy! LOL

      • http://teragrambrowne.blogspot.com/ Tera Graham-Browne

        Paul said to “rejoice, yes, rejoice” because Christ is preached whether from selfish ambition or from goodwill. (Phil 1)
        Not that I agree that these men and women are hypocrites, that’s for God to judge. But calling David Jeremiah and Robert Jeffress hypocrites pretty much negates anything else you have to say.

      • Kim Tardie

        You are right! This Casino magnate filed bankruptcy on his casinos too. Is that Biblical? These folks represent a version of the Bible that is warped towards bilking millions of dollars from the pockets of Americans to build their kingdoms, not God’s. When Jesus went into the temple and saw how the church was handling finances he overturned their tables. Jesus NEVER got violent any where else in the scriptures. No doubt if Jesus walked into the temples that these “preachers” have today tables would be flying!

  • GibbyD

    “Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men’s sins: keep thyself pure.” ( 1st. Timothy 5:22)KJB

    “If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. 6But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. 9But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.” ( 1st Timothy 6:3-10)KJB

    • Shirley temple dancer

      Judge NOT lest YOU be judged

      • Laurence Charles Ringo

        Since you’re demonstrating your ignorance of what Biblical judgment is,why are you talking ,Shirley?

        • Danae D.

          Shirley is dead on… Why so much hate?

          • Laurence Charles Ringo

            Sorry,Danae D.,but Shirley is NOT “dead on”,unless you would have us believe that Jesus contradicted Himself when He said…”judge not according to appearance,but judge righteous judgment”…What do YOU think He was referring to,Danae D.??

          • Danae D.

            I have already explained the answer to this in these threads… See above and below

          • Laurence Charles Ringo

            You’ve explained nothing,Danae D.,just quoted or re-wrote various Scripture passages without giving any discernable context.Again,what do YOU think Jesus meant in the passage I posted; what IS Jesus’concept of”…judging righteous judgment”…What exactly does that mean,Danae D.? What IS righteous judgment? I await your reply.

          • Danae D.

            I have shown you what the Bible says. “Judging righteous judgment” is your own interpretation. You cannot take a passage out of scripture and build your own doctrine on it. This is taking scripture out of context and making ‘you’ a false teacher! If you cannot understand what I wrote, how can you understand any of the Bible’s interpretation? It sounds like you just want to argue your point to be right.

            Knowing God is the first step. Praying for wisdom and discernment, seeking God in all His truth, seeking His righteousness through repentance, humility, and submission, desiring to love and obey Him, and then forgiving all those who have harmed you, these things will give you an ear to hear and to receive God’s wisdom and knowledge, but by the Spirit of God Himself… Then the blessed promises become very real in our life… But genuine love is the key in it all, and this is what I was attempting to explain in my previous posts…

          • Ruby F Brown

            Christians are to judge – otherwise how would we determine right from wrong. We don’t judge people in order to punish them or to cast them out but we can’t be normal live human beings, live in this world, and not know when someone is doing something right or wrong.

          • GibbyD

            Amen , how else would we be able to know them by their fruit?

      • GibbyD

        The word “judge” in Matthew 7:1 and where that verse is found , is the koine Greek word “KRINO”. The Word means PUNISH. So it is saying do not personally punish someone based on limited information or from It is not all that is know about someone. It is NOT saying not to form an opinion based on evidence . In the same chapter is say we can know them by their fruit.

        “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them” ( Matthew 7:15-20)KJB.

        • Danae D.

          In Matt 7, you forgot the rest of it…

          Mat 7:1 “Stop judging so that you will not be judged. 2 Otherwise, you will be judged by the same standard you use to judge others. The standards you use for others will be applied to you.

          Mat 7:3 So why do you see the piece of sawdust in another believer’s eye and not notice the wooden beam in your own eye? 4 How can you say to another believer, ‘Let me take the piece of sawdust out of your eye,’ when you have a beam in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye. Then you will see clearly to remove the piece of sawdust from another believer’s eye.

          Then there is this part;

          Mat 7:6 “Don’t give what is holy to dogs or throw your pearls to pigs. Otherwise, they will trample them and then tear you to pieces. (Sound a lot like many on these threads)

          And you forgot where Jesus says that it is the meek, the merciful, the pure in heart, and the ‘peacemakers’ who shall inherit the earth, obtain mercy, see God, and become the sons (and daughters) of God

          Mat 5:2 And He opened His mouth and taught them, saying,

          3 Blessed are the poor in spirit! For theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.
          4 Blessed are they that mourn! For they shall be comforted.
          5 Blessed are the meek! For they shall inherit the earth.
          6 Blessed are they who hunger and thirst after righteousness! For they shall be filled.
          7 Blessed are the merciful! For they shall obtain mercy.
          8 Blessed are the pure in heart! For they shall see God.
          9 Blessed are the peacemakers! For they shall be called the sons of God.

          Then there are those who are persecuted by wolves in the flock…

          10 Blessed are they who have been persecuted for righteousness sake! For theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.
          11 Blessed are you when men shall revile you and persecute you, and shall say all kinds of evil against you falsely, for My sake.
          12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for your reward in Heaven is great. For so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

          You claimed by the scripture you chose that “we can know them by their fruit” which is very accurate, but this fruit being expressed in this passage refers to “love” for one another, which adds up to Christ’s character of suffering for others, righteousness and integrity, but not the condemnation which runs a muck with so many of you “religious” accusers…

          Again, as I’ve explained in other posts on this thread, God is the only judge (and Jesus said the same thing about Himself that He did not come yet to judge man, but to save man… and we are to walk in His fruits of genuine love), we must judge our own hearts and actions by Christ’s fruits, but lovingly correct our brothers and sisters in Christ if we are in the place of authority to do so by the lead of the Master Potter Himself… through submission, prayer, and supplication…

          As far as the ‘righteous’ verses the ‘wolves’… unless the ‘righteous’ are given the authority to confront as Jesus did, we are not to waste our time with them… This is for those who are judged and persecuted by ravenous wolves in the church, in the world, and on these threads…

          • Laurence Charles Ringo

            What does all your Scripture-quoting and shoddy exegesis have to do with the matter at hand,Danae D.??

          • Danae D.

            Isn’t that a silly question coming from a Bible intellectual? I won’t
            bother you any more… Sincerely I say, please be careful…

          • GibbyD

            Jesus is not the only Judge. Jesus is The Final and Ultimate Judge. ————“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” ( John 3:17)KJB.

            You sound more like the accuser of the Brethren Danae. You assume allot with little evidence for your accusations . What you claim as fault in others , you seem to own about yourself.

            There is nothing wrong with making an informed assessment and remark about an individual that teaches false doctrine.

            Concerning who has the authority to make such pronouncements ? Read your Bible and see where God has placed that authority. ———“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:” ( 1st Peter 2:9)KJB. The New Testament places that authority and gives it to His Church assemblies and every born again believer is a priest before God and able to minister and offer spiritual sacrifices. There is no longer a Levite line of priests that are separate from the people and that through whom God will only work. The Bible teaches the priesthood of all believers. God warns about those that LORD over others in a capacity that is reserved for God alone. “But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds ( and the doctrine) of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.”( Rev. 2:6,14,15)KJB

            Christ is the Head of the Church and each assembly that is gathered unto and in The Name of The LORD Jesus Christ.

            Again you assume and judge others that they have no love because we may warn others of the false doctrines of the “prosperity preachers”. It would be hateful if a Christian man did not warn of such. Remember wolves show up in Sheep’s clothing. A man that tells you the truth may risk offending you , if need be, in his attempt to warn of teachings and teachers that are false. I do not say all those professing Christians are false to dangerous teachers , only some them are. What I do see as very wrong is the appearance of supposed ministers of the Gospel pandering to an immoral man that just happens to be very rich. The Bible warns about the rich and how they often are so because they are ungodly ( Psalm 73:12)KJB. Trump has said he has nothing to ask God forgiveness for. He says this even though before he was married three times, he was a prolific unashamed fornicator. After and during his marriages , he was an adulterer. This is the man these ministers are so concerned to be seen with and gain influence with. That was wrong . Trump never has admitted his sin. I believe Trump is faking being a Christian in order to try and gain worldly power.

          • Danae D.

            I’m sorry, you just don’t get it…

          • GibbyD

            What I understand is that supposed ministers of the Gospel should not be seen as pandering to Billionaire politicians as he uses them for his own advantage.

          • Danae D.

            Maybe… but the one man of God whom I hold great respect for
            prayed the correct prayer… “that if it be your will, O God, to bring
            this man into office, I pray Your blessings over him for the sake of Your people.” He prayed for wisdom for Trump if in fact it is His will to exalt him to the highest office, and he prayed that God’s glory would be glorified, not Trump (or anyone else for that matter). Paula White prayed that Trump’s eyes would be opened, and that his calling and mantel would be secured (not necessarily Leadership over America)… etc., etc. There is nothing wrong with these prayers. Again, God knows the heart of every man, and He is the One who raises man, and takes down man, according to His full purpose. God is the one who allowed Obama into office for very specific reasons. Unless the heart of man and America’s churches change drastically, I don’t see a true Christian coming into the high office of America yet. It is in God’s hands, but all according to man’s heart…

          • GibbyD

            If Trump is the nominee it will be based on (Daniel 4:17)KJB——“This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.”
            I wonder if they would all have gathered to meet and pray for some of the other candidates that are not as wealthy as Trump.
            My hope and prayer is that Mike Huckabee would be the nominee and eventual President of the USA. I think the Fair Tax is the best plan to turn our economy around.

          • Danae D.

            You continue to judge and persecute… It’s not my character to compromise my faith, or to entertain negative gossip (particularly when it comes to God’s children). I have my own opinions, but I take everything to my God before I jump to conclusions. I, too, have been deceived, many times, based on my own understanding, what I see, and what I feel. The devil is a liar and this is how we got Obama into office for two seasons so far (though never did I vote for him)… but it is because we no longer pray. We, as a nation, are deaf and blind, and even dumb when it comes to being politically correct. We are caught in a snare because we don’t know God and how He thinks, and because we don’t know His Word… The church is in trouble because she lives for herself and for what she sees and feels, and therefore easily caught up in the devil’s lies of deception. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again, living for the Lord means dying to self and renewing the carnal mind to walk in Christ’s mindset and footsteps of love and righteousness. We must realize as Christians that we are tested by our faith, but faith is not even available until we put it to work. This is only applicable with a personal love affair with our Precious Lord, for everything we deal with has a face of one form or another. May we be led by the Spirit and not by our own stance for God is faithful to do as he says…

            2Ch 7:14-15 However, if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves, pray, search for me, and turn from their evil ways, then I will hear their prayer from heaven, forgive their sins, and heal their country. 15 My eyes will be open, and my ears will pay attention to those prayers at this place.

            But on the other hand, I too like Mike Huckabee. He and Carson are my favorites…

          • GibbyD

            amen , I agree with most of what you state. It is still though what The LORD has led me to say in view of the deception that is happening concerning Trump that professing Christians on this thread do not seem to understand. If Trump had not professed to be a Christian I would not say anything about his past and present actions because those that are without God judges. Those that profess to be my brother in Christ but continue to walk in gross sin and darkness , are not to be uncorrected. Fornication, adultery and covetousness are not becoming of any man naming the name of Christ. Trump has not even ever expressed any shame and or sorrow for those sins. He remains proud and unrepentant about them. It would be a sin for a Christian not to call him out for that. Listen also to the evil that comes out of his mouth when he talks about his opponents in the race for the GOP nominee. Why are “Christians” blind to all these egregious sins and why are they patting him on the back instead of rebuking him ?

            (2 Chronicles 7:14-15)KJB was a recipe and command to the people of Israel but we can make some application. It is not though a formula for forgiveness in the Church age. Our sins are forgiven when we repent toward God and place our faith and trust toward The LORD Jesus Christ. ( Acts 20:21).

            “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.” ( 2 Timothy 4:2)KJB

            “I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.” ( 1st Corinthians 5:9-13)KJB

          • GibbyD

            And there is one candidate that is worse and her name is Hillary Rodham Clinton. Clinton says it is ok to murder unborn babies even seconds before they would be otherwise born. She is one of the most evil women on the face of the Earth.

          • GibbyD

            But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

          • Ruby F Brown

            Both are good men & probably the closest thing to a real Christian in the entire group. But being a good Christian does not qualify them to do the work of a pres. I think Carson is too nice, too soft and couldn’t stand up to all the coarseness and evil that he would be faced with. Huckabee, I’m not sure about. But as a fierce leader I think it takes a sort of bully type (like Trump) to stand up to ALL and say it like it is no matter who it hurts. I know they need God’s strength and favor in ruling and facing up to the great tasks at hand but they need that rough hard forceful demeanor that world leaders will fear. I guess I don’t understand how this kind of person could be a humble Christian.

          • GibbyD

            Cruz turned out to be the best candidate and would have been the best President we may have ever had if he would have been nominated and elected. Carson’s 7th day Adventist religion has some serious problems. Other than that he attempts to be decent. He should have never submitted to Trump though after Trump associated him with a pedophile. Huckabee too kowtowed to Trump near the end. Huckabee , Cruz and or Alen West would have been very good choices. The chances now for Trump to win are slim. Hillary will make everything worse in our nation as she will try to fill the Supreme Court with godless libs who will use their positions to legislate from the bench stealing away our religious liberties and state’s rights. This will cause a real bloody revolution unless the Convention of The States is successful .

          • Ruby F Brown

            The government is run by evil satanists and I’m not sure God has anything to do with WHO is pres, but he can certainly cause things to happen or he can change things according to his Will with whomever is placed into office. Satan is the god of this world. I believe the pres & other officials are SELECTED by a shadow government in order to try & destroy this country. USA has to go down before anti-christ comes to rule. God may allow the person to be seated but if he was ultimately responsible for the person selected/elected why would he choose such reprobates and wicked people? I don’t think we’ve ever had a true honest Christian as president – none!

          • Ruby F Brown

            I’m not sure Donald is using them – I feel it’s the other way around. They are imposing themselves on a person and in a person’s life who is a world known figure. It feeds their ego. There is only 1 or 2 in that room that I would let touch me or pray for me. The rest are showmen and con artists.

          • ladykatie25

            Oh, so you KNOW what’s really in Trump’s heart? He couldn’t possibly have repented and is humbly reaching out through these ministers for God’s blessing? How do you know he hasn’t prayed to God himself and is trying to show God he is serious by enlisting the help of these ministers? Even if he is going about it in a way you think is wrong, maybe Trump believes it’s right. Hillary wouldn’t even have made the effort.

        • Connie Haiko-Nielsen

          Gibby, thank you so very much for clearing that up. So many people do not understand firstly, what the word judge correctly means. I must confess that I did not until now. The scripture in Matthew 6 came to me when I began to read the comments and even b4 I read this comment of yours, so thank you so much!

      • sandra-paquette-

        We as Christian are to judge but, accordingly to God’s word. This is not us judging by what we think it is judging by what God has said in his word.

      • Connie Haiko-Nielsen

        Mattew 6:16-20
        16“You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17“So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18“A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20“So then, you will know them by their fruits

  • Johnnie

    All of these people are doing what the word say. They are praying for this man who happen to be Donald. The media never tell the whole truth when it comes to people of God. We should do the same. Pray for all in authority and quit complaining.

    • bret

      Well the way I see it….Donald Trump holds no office either in the Church nor in the government. Therefore he does not qualify as one in “authority.” But we Christians with discernment are indeed praying….that Donald Trump never gets any authority!

  • Josey

    Wow, this just seems bizarre to me so I really don’t know what to think of it besides that it seems bizarre, we live in bizarro world. Come Lord Jesus, even so Come!

    • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

      Yes Jesus come.Amen.

  • Dave_L

    God said; “It is I who by my great power and my outstretched arm have made the earth, with the people and animals that are on the earth, and I give it to whomever I please.” (Jeremiah 27:5)

    “And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.” (Luke 4:5–7)

    So God turned all of the kingdoms of the world over to Satan. This means every Magistrate is subject to Satan and must do things his way.

    On the converse, Jesus after refusing Satan’s deal for the world governments, and refusing the Jews attempts to make him King as they thought he should be, said; “…My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36)

    So I ask, in view of this, is there such a thing as a Christian Magistrate working under Satan who at the same time can fully be obedient to Christ? Or better, should a Christian meddle in politics?

    • Josey

      satan is a liar and the father of lies, you believe him when he says all is delivered unto him? Jesus knew what God’s will for Him was for one reason He came to die for our sins, it wasn’t God’s will for Jesus to set up an earthly kingdom but one day He will when God creates a new Heaven and Earth. Revelation 21 and satan twisted the word to Christ in these temptations, Jesus already knew all was given unto Him meaning Him as God but Jesus had a purpose at that time which He fulfilled, glory to God!
      satan owns nothing, hell is waiting for him and he knows it, his time is short. God is sovereign and can place His people wherever He sees fit even in public office if that is where He wants them. Daniel is a great example of that and there are many others. When we live in the world and yet are to be separate God is referring to us not living as the world lives, doesn’t mean God will not use one in the public arena, He uses His people in the public arena time and times again to do His will and bidding.

      Psalm 24 The earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. 2 For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.

      Psalm 50:7- 7 Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, and I will testify against thee: I am God, even thy God. 8 I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices or thy burnt offerings, to have been continually before me. 9 I will take no bullock out of thy house, nor he goats out of thy folds. 10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.11 I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.
      12 If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.

      There are many other scripture references to God possessing it all.

      • Dave_L

        Jesus knows the truth, and would not have been tempted if what Satan said was a lie. True – God controls Satan and Satan goes only so far as God planned for him to. God created and keeps Satan alive to fulfill His purposes. Also, please consider all of Paul’s references to the wicked spirits, principalities and powers that control government. I assume you have studied these but I can share more on them if not.

  • AlphaFTW

    I wish these “pastors” would have the wisdom to realize Trump is not the candidate they should be praying and asking God for. The guy is so full of arrogance that he thinks that he doesn’t need to ask Jesus for forgiveness and he can’t even quote a bible verse. He’s telling evangelicals what they want to hear to secure the vote just like Obama did to poor people. They should have the wisdom to pray for someone like Dr. Ben Carson or Ted Cruze or Mike Huckabee who actually stand by their beliefs and have a true love for God.

    • Josey

      Something I noticed when one was praying for Trump in listening to the video of it was they prayed for an african american to come alongside Trump, now I’m wondering if they will attempt to link Carson up with Trump in running as presidential and vice presidential. I did hear of others calling for the two to run together, now whether it is true or whether Carson would has yet to be seen.

      • maranathagen67

        Is race the answer? The blacks thought so when they put Obama in the White House. Now many of them realize their mistake. Believers in droves got their eyes off of Christ. I live in New Brunswick, Canada and we elected a French Acadian as Premier of our Province in the last election. Now who in essence put this man in office? Primarily French Acadians (who are in the minority). And yet most of them are Roman Catholics and we know that the RCC generally takes a pro-life stand. Obviously they voted linguistics over church doctrine; which affirms that the devil is a schemer and a deceiver and people are prone to be gullible and focus on wrong priorities especially when it comes to Biblical morals and mandates and the men to manage our affairs.

        • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

          The blacks thought so when they put Obama in the White House.

          You forget that it still took 39% of white Americans to vote president Obama into office. Without most of those votes, McCain/Palin would have won–so I raise a glass in toast to the 39% (of which I was one).

          • maranathagen67

            Just saying that a lot of black Christians voted for Obama which was a big mistake and they are now discovering that they made a bad move. And by now, you should have come to that conclusion too.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            You really believe that McCain and/or Romney would have done better? Many millions of people now have affordable, proactive healthcare. You don’t believe they should? You think they would be better off without it? We are not in a war with Iran. You think we should?

            Right now, however, our greatest problem is corporate money in politics. The only candidate advocating that is Bernie Sanders.

          • maranathagen67

            Obviously there are pros and cons to Obamacare. And as far as Iran is concerned, this deal is just a joke, leaving them time to continue their program of weapons of mass destruction . They are still openly committed to the annihilation of the Jews in Israel. And they have sent 1000 marines to join the Russian marines at their base on the Mediterranean. So it’s just a matter of time….

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            First, I know how badly the right wing wants another war, but the deal is that the IAEA has access to their facilities for inspections and there are various means for monitoring.

            Conservatives are very quick to send our sons and daughters off to kill and be killed or maimed for life, but have little stomach for properly funding their care when that come back. I’ll stick with the deal.

            Secondly, you provide no objective source for you claim about Iran’s marines. I vetted and found only right wing sites saying this, and I am very familiar with conservative disinformation.

            Can you cite the ORIGINAL source for the claim? If it is confirmed by an objective site, I will believe it, but not until. If I heard something that important on a left wing site, I would vet that as well. I always like to see original documents if possible.

            there are pros and cons to Obamacare.

            Yes, the cons are those who can easily afford healthcare, but object to government assistance to those who cannot. This is called indifference to suffering and it is a common trait in conservative America.

            Yes, there are people who play the system, but what there is is by far no match to Wall Street’s greed. Google “Ben Bernanke says Wall Street executives should have gone to jail.”

          • maranathagen67

            The truth is, Max, that conservatives will do a lot more to protect you and your family than those left wing Demo(n)s. I live in Canada and you would fit right in with the left wing NDP or even the Liberals. The NDP if elected would immediately cancel out our contribution to the effort arrayed against the ISIS. Our nation would go down the tubes with Mulcair at the helm. We have a Conservative PM and we are doing okay considering what is happening around our world.

            —————————————-
            From: “Disqus”
            Sent: Monday, October 5, 2015 9:59 AM
            To: [email protected]
            Subject: Re: Comment on Video Shows ‘ Prosperity’ Preachers Kenneth Copeland, Paula White Laying Hands on Donald Trump for Presidency “First, I know how badly the right wing wants another war, but the deal is that the IAEA has access to their facilities for inspections and there are various means for monitoring. Conservatives are very quick to send our sons and daughters off to kill and be killed or maimed for life, but have little stomach for properly funding their care when that come back. I’ll stick with the deal. Secondly, you provide no objective source for you claim about Iran’s marines. I vetted and found only right wing sites saying this, and I am very familiar with conservative disinformation. Can you cite the ORIGINAL source for the claim? If it is confirmed by an objective site, I will believe it, but not until. If I heard something that important on a left wing site, I would vet that as well. I always like to see original documents if possible.”
            Settings

            A new comment was posted on Christian News Network

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            Max T. Furr

            First, I know how badly the right wing wants another war, but the deal is that the IAEA has access to their facilities for inspections and there are various means for monitoring.
            Conservatives are very quick to send our sons and daughters off to kill and be killed or maimed for life, but have little stomach for properly funding their care when that come back. I’ll stick with the deal.
            Secondly, you provide no objective source for you claim about Iran’s marines. I vetted and found only right wing sites saying this, and I am very familiar with conservative disinformation.
            Can you cite the ORIGINAL source for the claim? If it is confirmed by an objective site, I will believe it, but not until. If I heard something that important on a left wing site, I would vet that as well. I always like to see original documents if possible.
            9:48 a.m., Monday Oct. 5 | Other comments by Max T. Furr

            Reply to Max T. Furr

            Max T. Furr’s comment is in reply to maranathagen67:

            Obviously there are pros and cons to Obamacare. And as far as Iran is concerned, this deal is just a joke, leaving them time to …
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          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            “Left wing liberal demons?” Really?

            Look, here in the U.S., I don’t want the government to protect me personally, I want it to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution. That, alone, would protect me by ensuring that constitutional laws are not violated, e.g. protection against domestic spying, protection against religious laws/the religious inculcation of my kids, protection against foreign invaders, e.g. armed aggression by any nation on our shores, equality of rights for all, etc.

            The president’s oath of office:

            “I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

            Threats against our nation should be met first with reason, i.e., how credible and what are the possibilities. Too, the ROOT CAUSE of significant threats should be determined by people intimately familiar with threatening group. Know why they think as they do and if possible, without diminishing our honor or security, negotiate a settlement. If not, and the threat becomes reality, then it would be war.

            The ultra-conservative, Cheney-Bush Administration, for example, disregarded the intelligence handed to it by the Clinton Administration on credible terrorist threats–9/11 included. Then, for various personal reasons, established a gulag archipelago of black site torture camps for the purpose of extracting “intelligence” by torturing people until they said what the administration WANTED them to say.

            Then molding the “intelligence around the policy of evasion,” lied to Congress and the Public to make it happen, and outed a NOC CIA agent in revenge for telling the truth that exposed one of their major lies, then invaded a stable, sovereign country that was no threat to us.

            This was, in my view, high treason and caused not only our nation to be less safe, but created the matrix that led to ISIS and the destabilization of the entire region.

            However, in your book that was all a good?

            Exactly what is it that you consider demonic with liberals/progressives:

            That they are open to new ideas?
            That they do not want to torture?
            That they want to help the nation’s least fortunate?
            That they consider proactive healthcare to be a right and not a privilege only for those who can afford it?
            That they want equality of rights and opportunities?
            That they want income equity with the wealthy?
            That they want to stop the ever widening income disparity between the workers and the wealthy–i.e., stop the redistribution of the wealth of the middle class and working poor to the already wealthy?
            That they want to stop corporate control of our government?
            That they prefer negotiations over preemptive war?

            Do these make a liberal demonic, but the ultra-conservative Cheney-Bush Administration was not?

          • Desertcatn

            How can you defend those ghouls, who defend tearing a fetus a certain way, so it’s organs can be harvested. This is what you voted for and shame on you!

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Your information is quite incorrect. You are a victim of deceit–doctored videos and Fox “News” propaganda.

            No one performs and abortion for the purpose of “harvesting” its organs. I don’t often use the word, “lie,” but what else can one apply to a complete fabrication?

            There are many reasons a woman and her doctor decide to end a pregnancy. I consider it ghoulish for government to step in between a woman and her doctor. This is the very same argument you on the right made against the ACA, remember? Your side touted the idea of government “death panels.”

            The only thing about that was, that is was another fabrication to scare the easily frightened and the self-righteous.

            So, where do you want to come down? Do you want no government intrusion into private decisions, or you do want government intrusion in private decisions?

          • Desertcatn

            I don’t watch FNC, so you are incorrect on that point. You are the one misinformed, there are actual businesses that buy fetal tissue and organs and they have to get them from somewhere. Planned Parenthood executives are on video discussing the methods, that was no fabrication! You can use whatever word you want, I will too and that word is, ghoul! You have your talking points, I won’t try to change your mind, it’s God that will judge you!

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            First, give me an ORIGINAL source for your information. It must be an objective source–not a right wing blog or “news” site that gives no reference to the evidence other than the doctored video. And, the makers of the video in question admitted that they inserted stock segments–that is doctoring the video. That is something I’m sure your right wing “sources” will not tell you.

            Of course there are fees incurred in tissue and organ extraction and someone has to cover those costs. However, you and your deceitful information source make it sound like Planned Parenthood is selling for a profit. This is the lowest of deceitful accusations.

            If a woman needs an abortion and the fetus isn’t viable, it is perfectly reasonable, if the woman agrees, to forward those organs/tissues for medical research. But again, someone has to pay the cost of shipping and probably for the time involved as well.

            But again, give me NAMES of businesses that buy and sell organs/tissues for profit–and get them from PP. Also, give me original documents showing that the video in question is 100% accurate in terms of PP performing abortions and selling for profit.

          • Desertcatn

            I’m not doing your research for you, it’s obvious that anything I would produce would be ignored. So we are supposed to ignore, fetal hearts and other organs being harvested, because they paid postage and shipping? It’s a sick, ghoulish practice and hard to hear someone defending it!

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            I didn’t think you could produce an objective source. It is you who are putting up the anti-PP argument, thus the burden of proof is on you.

            So again, instead of dodging the question, how about providing your OBJECTIVE source.

          • Desertcatn

            I don’t waste pearls on swine, you know they sell fetal tissue, yet refuse to acknowledge that it takes a ghoul to do something like that.

          • Desertcatn

            I don’t care to prove anything to you, Max! If you want to support ghouls killing and selling fetal tissue, that’s between you and God!

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            That you cannot produce facts to back up your argument is blatantly obvious to anyone reading your dodging (worthy of any politician). Here are facts to back up my argument that the video was edited and that PP is NOT selling fetal body parts (there is a cost in labor and proper handling/preserving of tissues that are to be sent–at a cost–to scientific organizations for research to help other human beings. PP is only charging enough to cover their COSTS.

            Do some PP personnel use inarticulate language? Yes, and that is what the videos are playing on and spinning.

            Google “Unspinning the Planned Parenthood Video.”

          • Desertcatn

            I don’t care to hear your propaganda, Max.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            I’m sorry that I find you to be a person of little personal integrity in honestly investigating important issues. Apparently you accept without question only a version of a story that most excites your base emotions.

            Sad.

          • Desertcatn

            I could say the same about you, but won’t, it seems to be bothering you more.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Did you Google “Unspinning the Planned Parenthood Video?”

            You see, my open mind led me to leave Christianity and embrace honest reason because I did not want to believe things that were demonstrably not true, and I found intellectual dishonesty to be too repugnant to embrace. Yet you hold on to beliefs even in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

            The unexamined belief is not worth believing, yet deep insecurity and fear prevent many from honestly examining their beliefs.

            I am still anti-abortion on demand, but I will not condone the government or any church inserting itself between a woman and her doctor.

            Conservatives scream at any government intrusion into their lives, but are quick to use government as a blunt object with which to bludgeon the rest of society into following their beliefs. Ironic, isn’t it?

          • Desertcatn

            No. Good for you, hope you become enlightened.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Wanting government to stay out of your life but using government to get into the lives of others is not irony? Look up the word. I think you may have the wrong definition.

            But, thanks, I became enlightened some years ago in the military and then in college. It was such an earth moving experience for me that it empelled me to write a book elucidating society’s complete disconnect between its current understanding of justice, mercy and benevolence and that of the OT god.

            Justice, in my view, is fairness in the Rawlsian sense. Generally, conservatives completely reject that view, or have a skewed understanding of “fairness.”

          • Desertcatn

            I’m a libertarian, so not for government getting into anyone’s life. The problem starts because a baby is a life, you can argue all day about when that life starts, but it’s still ending a life to have an abortion. A baby that was created, has had it’s life ended. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it’s still a pig, Max. I still say this issue is between you and God! If you don’t have a relationship with God, you are on your own, I’m not going to try and change your stony heart. Good luck!

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Well, there it is. You are not a true libertarian. True libertarians are very, very rare.

            I suspect, as well, that you support an unfettered, “free market” economy where corporations control our government for their own interests–profit over everything (including the lives of children). We’ve been edging closer to that ever since the institution of supply-side economics (trickle-down Reaganomics) in the late 70’s and early 80s.

            In any case, because of your religious belief, you still want an intrusive, big-brother government to step in between a woman and her doctor. You want government control over women’s reproductive decisions.

            Thus, you are not as “libertarian” as you claim to be (or is libertarianism only for men and corporations?).

          • Desertcatn

            Maybe, who knows, I generally leave people to their devices, really don’t care if they agree with me or not.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            I generally leave people to their devices

            Very good. I hope that this policy will someday be applied to women and homosexuals as well.

          • Desertcatn

            I am a woman, so yes, I would apply that to myself. Nobody, except the moslems, cares what homosexuals do; they just don’t want it rubbed in their face and they don’t want to be forced to participate in their weddings. Do you visit moslem sites and rage about them throwing gay people off of buildings and stoning them to a bloody pulp?

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            We do not live in an Islamic nation. The fact that fundamentalist Muslims kill homosexuals is because they are far more obedient to their ancient, Draconian god and its laws than are Christian and Jewish fundamentalists. Remember, it is written that Jesus said;

            Matthew 5:

            17 ¶Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

            18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

            Thus, the old laws/commandments are supposed to still be in force.

          • Desertcatn

            You don’t believe in Jesus, so why quote Him. Christians are not supposed to sin; gay people are the only ones that expect a pat on the head for them indulging in their sin. You don’t see drunks, making their own flag and shaming Christians for not accepting their behavior. Quit being so silly.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            I post the quote because that is what it takes to point out that Christians pick and choose what they will and will not believe about their religion. Everyone has his personal interpretation of what various verses mean and whether or not they will obey it. If he doesn’t like it, he simply reinterprets to some meaning agreeable to him.

            And what you think gay people want is absolutely none of your business in our secular nation. You want the government to leave your religious beliefs alone and not force you to abide by the beliefs of others? Then why would you want the government to force others to abide by your beliefs?

            And the actions of gays with flags and marches are no more than a reaction to the oppression Christians have fomented for centuries. You want to micromanage their lives but you would not allow them to micromanage yours.

            Amazing that Christians cannot see their own hypocrisy. If Christians would leave them alone and not get in their faces, then they would not be in your face.

            This is the very same attitude that many (most?) white people, (mostly Christians) had during the civil rights movement of the mid 20th century. They were upset because blacks refused to stay “in their place.”

            This is called, “cause and effect,” and the root cause is Christian intolerance and bigotry.

            Christians want the in-your-face(ism) to stop? Then manage your own life and leave others to manage theirs.

          • Desertcatn

            You are barking up the wrong tree, I don’t have a religion. I have a relationship with God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I make no apologies for that.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            It appears that, by your definition, no one follows a religion. The word, itself, is hollow, referring to nothing.

            Fundamentalist Muslims, for example, say the same thing. In fact, one Muslim even has a FB page titled, Islam is not a Religion, it is a Way of Life. Do you agree? Religion doesn’t exist for believers?

          • Desertcatn

            That’s not true, many attend their church and it’s all good; to each their own. Moslems are told to lie to infidels, per the Koran, so not really relevant. I don’t attend church and never have, more of a people thing, rather than a church thing, though.

            You seem very unhappy.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Where in the world did you get the idea that I was not happy? I know that you truly want to believe that, but using the mental facilities with which you were born can be quite enlightening.

            Remember, I once thought as you, but the difference was that I was greatly concerned about objectivity. I actually listened to the arguments, pro and con. I didn’t simply judge others who were not Christians as being “unhappy,” or “misled,” or “wrong.” I actually listened and used my power of reason that I thought, at the time, that was god-given. I followed up by pursuing a higher education into other religions, into logic, and into philosophy.

            So, look, let’s get down to specifics concerning the origin of Christianity. Have you ever objectively compared and contrasted Christianity and Zoroastrianism? It is truly an eye-opener for the open-minded.

            And have you ever researched the earliest translations that led to the stories of Jesus? Have you applied logic to the stories in the OT of Yahweh’s actions in contrast to modern day views of justice, mercy, and universal benevolence?

            If you haven’t done these things, then I have to say that you are not being honest with yourself.

          • Desertcatn

            You just seem dreary and unhappy. You assume that I came to my beliefs through the usual ways and you would be wrong. I’m happy with my choices and I don’t feel the need to go around indoctrinating people.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Where are you getting the idea that I am unhappy? As you say, believe as you will (even it your belief is wrong). I know you will because you do not defend your positions. That makes me wonder why you even bother to post on a blog where you know that statements are debated. Do you only wish to sing to the choir?

            I enjoy debate because I do not argue to win, but to learn and/or teach. I do not dodge hard questions. In fact, I love to get them. Nor do I attempt to “indoctrinate,” Debate causes me to think and research. Thus, I’m doing what I am happiest doing. If I make an indisputable, logical rebuttal, then it is very possible that I’ve taught something whether or not my interlocutor admits it. After all, that is one way I’ve learned over the years.

          • Desertcatn

            This matter is between you and God.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Which god?

          • Desertcatn

            Which ever one you pray to, your business, not mine.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Okay, so there are many. How do you know your’s is the best one?

          • Desertcatn

            I think it’s a personal choice.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            I agree. And one’s personal choice should never find itself into law to force others to abide by that choice.

            I’m happy that we have common ground. Thanks.

          • Desertcatn

            It never has been a law, the decision to not support abortion is one that has to do with supporting a life, not a religion. Just because you are hostile to children in the womb, doesn’t mean everyone else has to stand by, while they are slaughtered and sold in pieces. Only a ghoul would be so supportive of such a horrible heartless practice. You need to check your premises.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            I believe you are being disingenuous. The view that life begins at conception is, indeed, a religious belief. It certainly isn’t scientific (although there are a few religious doctors/”scientist” that will tell you that. It certainly sells books and lines their pockets).

            And by the way, bearing false witness is a cardinal sin, yet I see Christians doing that all the time, especially when they believe that their religious symbol can stand on public property but no other religions can do the same. They attempt to justify it be saying it is not religions, but is a secular, historical marker.

            And then there are the anti-abortion and anti-contraception laws that they claim aren’t religiously based. Riiiight!

            As I’ve mentioned, I do not like abortions either. Abortions after the first trimester bother me when there is no medical necessity. But what bothers me much more is government/religious control over women.

            As for your terms and belief about planned parenthood, you are merely falling for religiously based political propaganda. I know I will never change your mind, but at least you should not call yourself a libertarian.

          • Desertcatn

            I think science has been politicized, so I don’t look to hacks, to figure out my basic beliefs.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Yes, science does tend to become politicised when science-illiterate voters elect conservative men and women to congress who are either science-illiterate hacks who find themselves in charge of committees that deal with science, or they are science-literate but self-serving, deceptive individuals who exploit religion for votes–which is easy to do if you think about it.

            A dishonest person who secretly disagrees with you but says he does and beats other candidates over the head with the Jesus stick will get your vote, but a honest person who speaks his mind and does not reference religion will not get your vote.

            That’s another reason I like Bernie Sanders. He is without a doubt the most honest man we’ve had running for president in my lifetime. He never tailors his opinions to fit the audience, does not run attack ads, he is science literate, wants social and economic justice for ALL citizens, and isn’t afraid to say so to anyone.

          • Desertcatn

            I’ve heard it all before, Max, but you are ignorant about what is really going on. There is one group running our country, they keep us divided; to enable themselves to operate without check. Read what Machiavelli says about factions; the fight between right and left wing, is nothing more than a manufactured ruse. I don’t beat people up with a Jesus stick, I don’t go to church, because I don’t like getting beaten up myself. Religion is man-made and imperfect, but Jesus Christ is real and if you don’t accept that; you have that right.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Yes, I’ve heard all that before as well and it’s based entirely on xenophobia and propaganda.

            Roughly 400 BCE, Plato, disillusioned with Athenian politics, opined that neither oligarchy nor democracy were suitable political systems to bring about social harmony.

            As Plato saw it, oligarchy brought about the social injustice of a ruling wealthy elite whose primary concern was their own appetites (today’s Neoconservatives/conservatives). But democracy brought about social injustice as well, because ordinary people had no understanding of how to manage the complexities of government, and as a consequence of their intellectual deficiency, they were easily deceived by the emotional rhetoric of self-serving politicians (again, today’s neoconservatives/conservatives).

            The reason progressives fight to uphold the constitution (especially the Establishment Clause) is to ensure that every person has complete freedom to follow the dictates of his conscience in matters of religious belief and that no one’s beliefs can be forced on others. That is called, “freedom.”

            The reason why progressives fight against domination by Wall Street and the self-serving wealthy is because of concern for the welfare of the working public.

            One reason for the gridlock in Washington is because of the influence of corporate money in government. The reason nothing is being done to eliminate corporate monetary coercion is because one party is convincing half the nation that unfettered corporations will always do what is right for the population. We know by experience that they will certainly not. Their sole motivation is profit, and as much as they can get by any means.

            So, yes, there are differences in the political system–differences diametrically opposed to each other. Until the nation wakes up to what is happening, it will be business as usual and fundamentalists will continue to intrude into the lives of others.

            And BTW, there is evidence that the divinity of Jesus was a first and second-century fabrication. If you like, we can discuss the evidence and the lack thereof.

          • Desertcatn

            I wouldn’t know where to start, to address your deluded thinking, so I won’t.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            LOL! Surely you know that I know that your condescension is a result of cognitive dissonance.

            Religion is man-made and imperfect, but Jesus Christ is real and if you don’t accept that; you have that right.

            Err, so Christianity is not a religion? Would you like to discuss origins and translations–use your intellect instead of using unfounded, declarative statements? You say, “Jesus is real.” Give the objective evidence and define how Christianity is not a religion, and if you say it is, then define, as well, how you are not a Christian

            >>But first, it should be pointed out that there are two kinds of “truths”: objective and subjective. Below, I copy and paste the explanation from a response I made to a “guest” days ago:

            For example, a group of people are having a party in honor of a man recently released from alcoholic rehab. The man arrives, but soon falls victim to Delirium Tremens (the DTs).

            This recovering alcoholic, in great fear, claims that he sees snakes slithering all around the floor and on the walls. All the celebrants look around but see no snakes.

            No one will be able to convince the man that there are no snakes. He sees them and he is being truthful. The rest of those present agree among themselves that they saw no snakes. They, too, are being truthful. The man’s truth, then, was subjective. The truth witnessed by the others present was objective.

            When making decisions or engaging in debates, it is best to use objective evidence. Subjective “evidence” has no weight.

            I may have stated this logical axiom before, but I’ll state it again:

            If all the world believed in a single proposition, the sheer weight of all that belief–without objective evidence–would lend not a single nanogram to its truth.

          • Desertcatn

            I wasn’t trying to be condescending, just not into arguing; you are perfectly free to believe whatever you like.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Well, yes I am free and so are you. I think, however, one owes it to one’s self to make decisions based on objective reasoning/evidence and recognize . Never follow “prosperity” preachers. They are in it for their own appetites and know that by spiking the emotions of believers, they will become wealthier.

            As I’ve mentioned, I was taught from tothood to be a Christian. I took to heart the idea that one should help the poor whenever possible and (Matthew 6:19) “Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:”

            Today, although I am no longer a Christian, I feel an obligation to reach back and point out what I learned to those who tend to forget (or ignore) that tenet. I recall Jesus’ main concern was helping the poor (to include giving up what one has and divide it among the poor. Some preachers actually do that, but obviously some do not.

          • Desertcatn

            Yes, you recall that about Jesus, incorrectly and it’s probably why you aren’t a Christian; you just never got it. It’s sad that you are so bitter, you want to turn people away from Jesus Christ.

            I don’t follow or worship people, period! I follow principles, truths and Jesus. I hope your heart turns away from your sin.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            “Bitter?” Nay. I am happy that i came to my senses. Your comment shows beyond any doubt that it is you who does not get it.

            This verse I quoted, Matthew 6:19, was verbatim from the KJV–the bases for virtually all other translations/versions. So, you are saying that it did not mean what it obviously said?

            I’m not surprised. Conservatives/rabid capitalists always find a way to explain such verses away in order to justify their own desire to accumulate treasures on earth—often at the expense of others.

            I follow a far superior doctrine. You can google it at “Empathy: Bringing down the walls, one brick at a time”

            Even Christianity advocates this doctrine, but virtually ignores it. I hope you can find it in your power of Reason to embrace it.

          • Desertcatn

            Well there you go, you think you are talking to a conservative/rabid capitalist and you regurgitate the same talking points.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Religion is man-made and imperfect, but Jesus Christ is real and if you don’t accept that; you have that right.

            You never answered my rebuttal. Cognitive dissonance, perhaps or is it that you do not consider him to be divine, but you follow his philosophy?

            If you think him to be divine, then I’ll be more clear and ask a different way: What makes your belief in Jesus not a religious belief when his whole persona constituted the birth of Christianity–a religion?

            There is one group running our country, they keep us divided; to enable themselves to operate without check. Read what Machiavelli says about factions; the fight between right and left wing, is nothing more than a manufactured ruse.

            A lot of people have that attitude because they are not aware of the root cause of our government’s apparent disfunction. It isn’t that the right and the left are the same, the problem is that very little changes because Wall Street is virtually in control of our government for their own interest. Bernie Sanders happens to be the only candidate running for president that has the end of political bribery as his top priority.

            Unfortunately most on the right and to many on the left do not understand his self-labeled “Democratic Socialism.” He recently explained it fully at Georgetown University, and you can watch it on Youtube under the title; Bernie Sanders Democratic Socialism FULL Speech – Georgetown Univ – Nov 19, 2015 I’d give the link but I don’t think links are accepted on Disque.

          • Desertcatn

            We can agree on what the problems are, yet, disagree on the solution. I don’t mind that we have that difference. I prefer to spend my energy working on solutions, you spend your energy seeking to indoctrinate people to your way of thinking; we both make our choices.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Indoctrinate? You consider debate, indoctrination? My word. Again, why do you even bother to post if you do not want debates?

            Okay then, if you will accept a debate on politics and we agree on the problem (corporate control of government), then let’s debate solutions. What is yours?

          • Desertcatn

            I’m not interested in debating, I’m in the middle of working on a project. Are you bored?

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Yes, I have a project as well as I’m writing another novel. I suppose I should devote to it more time. But then, debates do not last long and I always have an opportunity to learn something. After all, it was through online debates that gave me great material for my last novel.

            I would, however, like to read your idea on how we could get the corporate money out of politics.

          • Desertcatn

            That’s cool, always good to have projects going. I am a devotee to the comment section, I learn so much more than what is in the article. I don’t like the corporate money, but it’s no worse than the money given by unions; which I don’t like either. I have some ideas about the elections being bought and it’s part of the project I am working on. Sadly, it’s the nature of humans in large groups, to become corrupt, it’s why revolutions happen.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            I’m happy to see that your project concerns my top priority–getting money out of politics.

            Now, as for unions, it is unfortunate that their contributions, which go to candidates/congresspersons who will fight for the right of workers to share in the wealth they create, pale in volume to the enormous amount of money that comes out of Wall Street to candidates (including Hillary Clinton) who fight to keep the status quo (no living wage for low tier workers) and the deregulation of industry (including the big banks so they can speculate with your money. If they win, they keep the profit, if they lose and again wreck the economy, you, the taxpayer, bails them out and no one goes to jail).

            To me, that is not only unjust, but immoral.

            We often hear of Warren Buffett donating money to Democrats and it is assumed that he is being self-serving just like the Koch bros are doing on the right. But the difference is that Buffett is giving to organizations that want to raise his taxes. The Koch’s are doing the opposite. They want lower taxes on the wealthy simply and no living wage because they will be more wealthy.

            Look, it is likely you will agree with me that If corporations were made to pay a living wage, the workers would spend more money, demand would go up, the wheels of industry would turn out more products, and the economy would be in much better shape.

            Also, there would be far less government assistance to the poor because there would be far fewer poor people. Instead of taxpayer dollars subsidizing the working poor, corporation would be taking on that responsibility, as they damn well should–besides that, their sales volume would increase.

            Back to unions: Consider what would happen if unions did not exist and industry was deregulated to the point of no government oversight or control. Whatever you are being paid now, cut that at least in half. The poverty rate would skyrocket and government assistance would at least double overnight (we can’t allow children to starve to death and people need medical assistance).

            Also, with little or no regulations of industry, forget about a 40 hr work week and relatively clean drinking water–not to mention not being able to trust most of the food you buy.

            Breathable air in industrial areas? Forget it. Workplace safety? There would be very little, leading to far more mine disasters, black lung disease, much more chemicals and waste discharged into streams, rivers, lakes, and oceans, no enforcement of guards on machinery, leading to far more injuries–the list goes on and on. We need strict government oversight without corporations writing the rules and/or buying favors.

            Forgive me if I stated this before, but the only way we will get the money out of politics is to elect politicians who will agree to write or back legislation to that effect. Electing such candidates will require a grassroots revolution and it would be without the help of the corporate media. (check out this article titled “Who Impugns Hillary’s Integrity?” at OurFuture “dot” org (I’d give the link but I don’t think it’s allowed on this blog.

            The odds, of course, are stacked heavily against it. Even the corporate media has a vested interest in dismissing, downplaying, or ignoring candidates like Sanders because he is the only candidate who would fight like hell to blow up that money pipeline that runs from Wall Street to Congressional pockets (including Hillary Clinton’s), and the media would stand to lose hundreds of million$ in campaign attack ads.

            Sorry about the lengthy response, but as you can see, I am quite passionnant in my desire for a just society–or at least as just as we can get it.

          • Desertcatn

            I agree on that. I just listened to Ken Follett’s books, Fall of Giants and Winter of the World, it was interesting to get a different perspective. My opinion is that all of them are polluted, even more strongly after listening to those books.

          • Desertcatn

            I’m not engaging in some tit for tat with you. I am against the anti-life communist principles and you are wasting your time, if you think you are going to make me embrace something so repulsive. Enjoy your life and move on.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Well, this is precisely why I am a progressive. I want knowledge and I what to know facts about which I oppose. Obviously you do not. I LIKE learning. You do not.

            Your belief that Sander’s views are “communistic,” and your refusal to even listen to him, demonstrates without a doubt that you are willfully ignorant and have no interest in knowing the facts against which you argue. Apparently you don’t have the integrity to be intellectually honest with yourself.

            A lot of people are that way, and it is exactly how people like Cheney-Bush gain power and why, now, there are hundreds of thousands of innocent people around the world who are now dead (men women and CHILDREN).

            Enjoy your ignorance and self importance that you feel is bliss.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Hmm. I know I responded to this yesterday. I’ll try again.

            Would you mind elaborating on “anti-life communist principles?” I believe I understand your position on abortion, but where does communism fit in?

          • Desertcatn

            Communism denies the individual, in favor of the collective. Humans weren’t designed to be part of a hive, we aren’t drones; we are created individually; our dna is proof of that. Once the individuality is taken away, what is left? Nothing, it’s anti-life.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            And you consider socialism to be tantamount to
            communism? You think Bernie Sanders a communist?

            First and foremost, socialism does not equate to
            communism and here is why:

            The U.S. has many socialist programs, foremost
            among which are the military, the Veterans Administration, highways, fire
            departments, police departments, utilities, corporations (for bailing them out
            when they lose your money–but they keep the profit when they win), the
            airwaves (supposed to be publically owned but money in politics allows it to be
            controlled by corporations so they can tell you what they want you to hear),
            the Social Safety Net (Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security), national, State
            and local parks, national forests, dams, etc. These are all collective
            enterprises.

            All this and more, yet we are not a socialist
            nation. With communism, the people (government) own the means of production and
            distribution. In a pure communist state, there is not private ownership. With
            that in consideration, the old Soviet Union was not a pure communist state.
            Communism does not work because of several reasons, foremost being the spirit
            of individualism–similar to your description but not strictly so because we
            like collectivism where is benefits us and does not restrict our lives and
            movement.

            Now, Bernie Sanders is very much the same sort of
            socialist as most folks. Neither he, nor I, want the government to own the
            means of production and distribution except where most Americans find benefit
            for all. Neither he, nor I, are opposed to wealth. After all, it certainly
            is a strong incentive to promote economic stability. But it should never be
            gained at the expense of others.

            He wants corporations regulated only to the point
            they are benefit all Americans, not just the wealthy and the few. He sees, as
            do I, that since the institution of supply-side economics, the wealth of the
            middle class has been steadily redistributed upward to the already wealthy, and
            the income disparity has not gotten better under either party. It continues to
            widen. He wants equity of income as do all Americans except those who grow
            wealthier at the expense of workers, whose income continues to flat line.

            So the choice comes down to this, as I see it; We
            can have an unfettered Wall Street and allow all institutions to be privatized
            (including fire depts., police depts., highways, the VA, etc. all working for
            the owner’s interest–profit only and paying low wages for that purpose), or we
            can do our best to create an Aristotelian Golden Mean—controlled capitalism
            for economic justice (equity) and social programs that benefit anyone falling
            on hard times for whatever reason.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            And you consider socialism to be tantamount to
            communism? You think Bernie Sanders a communist?

            First and foremost, socialism does not equate to
            communism and here is why:

            The U.S. has many socialist programs, foremost
            among which are the military, the Veterans Administration, highways, fire
            departments, police departments, utilities, corporations (for bailing them out
            when they lose your money–but they keep the profit when they win), the
            airwaves (supposed to be publically owned but money in politics allows it to be
            controlled by corporations so they can tell you what they want you to hear),
            the Social Safety Net (Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security), national, State
            and local parks, national forests, dams, etc. These are all collective
            enterprises.

            All this and more, yet we are not a socialist
            nation. With communism, the people (government) own the means of production and
            distribution. In a pure communist state, there is not private ownership. With
            that in consideration, the old Soviet Union was not a pure communist state.
            Communism does not work because of several reasons, foremost being the spirit
            of individualism–similar to your description but not strictly so because we
            like collectivism where is benefits us and does not restrict our lives and
            movement.

            Now, Bernie Sanders is very much the same sort
            of socialist as most folks. Neither he, nor I, want the government to own the
            means of production and distribution except where most Americans find benefit
            for all. Neither he, nor I, are opposed to wealth. After all, it certainly is a
            strong incentive to promote economic stability. But it should never be gained
            at the expense of others.

            He wants corporations regulated only to the
            point they are benefit all Americans, not just the wealthy and the few. He
            sees, as do I, that since the institution of supply-side economics, the wealth
            of the middle class has been steadily redistributed upward to the already
            wealthy, and the income disparity has not gotten better under either party. It
            continues to widen. He wants equity of income as do all Americans except those
            who grow wealthier at the expense of workers, whose income continues to flat
            line.

            So the choice comes down to this, as I see it;
            We can have an unfettered Wall Street and allow all institutions to be
            privatized (including fire depts., police depts., highways, the VA, etc. all
            working for the owner’s interest–profit only and paying low wages for that
            purpose), or we can do our best to create an Aristotelian Golden
            Mean—controlled capitalism for economic justice (equity) and social programs
            that benefit anyone falling on hard times for whatever reason.

          • Desertcatn

            That’s good, I’m glad you are happy about that. I’m empathetic, but I do it with my own money.

          • Desertcatn

            Tomato, Tomaato, the result is that either a baby goes onto being a child and adult or it is destroyed. You don’t know my beliefs or why I believe what I do.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Why are you sidestepping (bearing false witness) as to your motivations? I often find that Christians, claiming to be family values voters, have no problem at all in deceiving others. An honest person would state, unequivocally, his motives.

            My motivation, for example, is to expose the hypocrisy of religious conservatives demanding that the government stay out of their lives while, at the same time, trying to use the government as a blunt instrument to bludgeon the rest of society into abiding by their religious views.

            We do not live in a theocracy.

    • Watcher200

      I agree with this comment about Trump not being the candidate they should be praying for. However, I have listened to Jeremiah and Jeffress for years and believe they are solid in their faith in the Lord. They do have wisdom. It may not be apparent to us why they went there but I see nothing wrong with their presence there. One striking thing I observed was the way Paula White literally jumped into Trumps arms after the prayer and the way he responded by kissing her hair. Not Good and very telling. Too much intimacy there between 2 people who are not married to each other. She has been in the news before because of infidelity. Trump better vamoose away from her or he will wind up the star on the tabloid news.

    • maranathagen67

      Very good point! A lot of “Christians” are responding the same way as they did with Mitt Romney as candidate for the Presidency. He might have been a good family man and showed other promising characteristics and abilities. But he still represented a godless cult whose doctrines are condemned by God. Christians voted for him because they figured he and his wealth could defeat Barak Obama. Were there alternatives, those whom God could use and bless because of their faith and trust in the wisdom of God? Certainly! But many have this self-centered ideology that United States must be Number One, and restoring the nation to its greatness and glory can only come about by electing a man of charisma and wealth, and personal strength and stamina when he addresses his countrymen or the nations of the world. We forget that wisdom comes from God and those who aspire to lead a nation must rely upon the wisdom that is from above. A nation will only be great as their citizens get on their knees and humbly repent of their wretched and wicked deeds. Caesar is not the answer; Christ is! It remains to be seen whether Americans will bow to their Creator and seek His guidance, or whether they will continue to do what is right in their own eyes. Seek ye the Lord while He may be found; call ye upon Him while He is near. That’s requirement number one. Got a question: if the trumpet were to sound, where would Trump and his followers be? Still issuing forth an uncertain sound? Caught in the rupture but missing the rapture?

      • Desertcatn

        I don’t understand why Donald Trump’s wealth makes it impossible to be a Christian. I like Donald Trump, because he speaks from the heart, he’s the only one speaking out about the lawless violation of our borders, he cares about Israel and he’s not beholden to those buying a candidate for favors.

        Why is it so impossible to believe he is a Christian or could receive God’s anointing to lead this nation. Are we Marxists buying into the liberation theology, that makes having wealth and a good business head a sin. Remember a poor man can worship money as much as a wealthy one!

        • maranathagen67

          Donald Trump talked about his Christian faith, but said he’s never sought forgiveness for his sins. He has had multiple marriages and owns several gambling casinos. Maybe he’s seen the Light! There are others I would have much more confidence in… like Huckabee and Cruz.

          • Desertcatn

            We are electing a President, not a Pastor, we need someone strong and savvy to get out of the mess we are in or else there is no country.

          • maranathagen67

            Your new President will need much wisdom to make wise choices… I would say that a man who has direct connections with the Sovereign God has a distinct advantage over the one who must depend on fallible man to guide him and strengthen him.

          • Desertcatn

            That’s true, but you don’t know if Donald Trump has been chosen for such a time, I don’t either, but God knows.

          • maranathagen67

            Some of our best leaders here in Canada have been men of God who had access to the Throne. God blessed them because they were a blessing to Him.

          • Desertcatn

            That’s nice, but Saul wasn’t a blessing to God, he was persecuting Christians, yet God used him greatly.

          • maranathagen67

            What a difference it made when Saul was regenerated and became the apostle Paul. Donald Trump needs to have a Damascus road experience.

          • Desertcatn

            Maybe he will.

          • Desertcatn

            Would you disagree with God, for using the sinful broken men, he used in the Bible! Should he have chosen someone else? Is God wrong for using King David, after what happened with Bathsheba?

          • maranathagen67

            I don’t think I’m in a position to disagree with God. David was a man after God’s own heart…. anointed of God. But he was also prone to temptation like the rest of us. Lust of the flesh was his downfall. We all struggle with temptation in one form or another. But if we are true believers, we have a great advantage in knowing that we are in Christ and have access to His indwelling power, the power and victory of the Cross. When the prophet exposed David’s transgression, he repented (Thou art the man!). See Psalm 51. God still continued to use David but he paid dearly for his act of disobedience. Be sure your sin will find you out. As followers of Christ, we still have the flesh and the world and the Devil to contend with. And we will identify with the apostle Paul at times when he confessed that he was guilty of not doing the things he should have done and doing the things he should not have done. God can only use broken sinful men. Those who are proud and arrogant and full of themselves have to be humbled. He (God) must increase and I must decrease. If we are not willing to humble ourselves under the hand of the Almighty, then He can’t use us. The first step of course is surrendering ourselves to Christ in salvation. And the next is sanctification … growing in the Lord and being separated from the world and it’s devices. Now where is Mr. Trump at? He says he has never sought forgiveness for his sins. That tells us pretty well that he is not saved and is still a stranger to God’s grace and mercy. He’s not ready for God’s anointing if he has refused to take that first step of surrender. Humble yourself under the mighty hand of God and in due time He will lift you up. I think it would be much more appropriate for these men of faith to lay hands upon those who are of kindred spirit like Mike Huckabee or Cruz, etc. The best they can do for Trump is to lead him to the altar in salvation, asking the Holy Spirit to have mercy upon him and begin that work of redemption in his soul and spirit. It’s true that God can even use a jackass (Balaam) to convey His message if the situation warrants it. He is Sovereign God and has the power and wisdom to topple kingdoms and raise up others that He might be glorified.

          • Desertcatn

            You wouldn’t have chosen the men, God chose, would you admit that?

          • maranathagen67

            God will use people as He sees fit. Even the nations of this world. Putin is a powerful, wealthy individual. God’s permissive will has allowed him to carry out his devilish schemes. The Russian Bear will be an integral part of last days events. His days are numbered.

          • maranathagen67

            Would you like Huckabee or Putin to occupy the White House? Silly question, I know…

          • Desertcatn

            Yes, it is a silly question. I like Huckabee, I admire his forthrightness, but disagree with what he did, at the end of the last election. Also, Huckabee has deep ties to Fox News, whose agenda is to push for amnesty. Obviously Putin is a foreign leader, so not sure why you think I would want him to come here and run our country.

            The politicians in our country feed us the okey-doke, then do whatever the establishment tells them, so I have lost faith in most of them. If you want to make fun of my concerns and continue your attack on Trump, go right ahead. You have missed the point on every post I have written, so I won’t be surprised to see another snarky question from you. Carry on.

          • maranathagen67

            I was exaggerating to emphasize my point!

            Are you having a bad hair day?

            A couple have said that they weren’t looking for a preacher but a president to lead them. Hey, anything wrong with having a preacher for a president? Be a lot better having someone in the White House who has “connections”! Right? The Bible says to get wisdom. Where do we get it from? Simple… God and His Word! Presidents and Prime Ministers need wisdom…. Presidents and Prime Ministers need God to rule effectively and make the right decisions.

            —————————————-
            From: “Disqus”
            Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2015 1:03 PM
            To: [email protected]
            Subject: Re: Comment on Video Shows ‘ Prosperity’ Preachers Kenneth Copeland, Paula White Laying Hands on Donald Trump for Presidency “Yes, it is a silly question. I like Huckabee, I admire his forthrightness, but disagree with what he did, at the end of the last election. Also, Huckabee has deep ties to Fox News, whose agenda is to push for amnesty. Obviously Putin is a foreign leader, so not sure why you think I would want him to come here and run our country. The politicians in our country feed us the okey-doke, then do whatever the establishment tells them, so I have lost faith in most of them. If you want to make fun of my concerns and continue your attack on Trump, go right ahead. You have missed the point on every post I have written, so I won’t be surprised to see another snarky question from you. Carry on.”
            Settings

            A new comment was posted on Christian News Network

            —————————————-

            Desertcatn

            Yes, it is a silly question. I like Huckabee, I admire his forthrightness, but disagree with what he did, at the end of the last election. Also, Huckabee has deep ties to Fox News, whose agenda is to push for amnesty. Obviously Putin is a foreign leader, so not sure why you think I would want him to come here and run our country.
            The politicians in our country feed us the okey-doke, then do whatever the establishment tells them, so I have lost faith in most of them. If you want to make fun of my concerns and continue your attack on Trump, go right ahead. You have mis sed the point on every post I have written, so I won’t be surprised to see another snarky question from you. Carry on.
            1:02 p.m., Sunday Oct. 11 | Other comments by Desertcatn

            Reply to Desertcatn

            Desertcatn’s comment is in reply to maranathagen67:

            Would you like Huckabee or Putin to occupy the White House? Silly question, I know…
            Read more

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          • Desertcatn

            You may be the one having a bad hair day.

          • Desertcatn

            Agree, we are seeing so much happening every day.

    • Desertcatn

      But when you study the men who God used in the Bible, it would make perfect sense that God would use Donald Trump!

  • Peter Leh

    SO what was that from Jeffress on taking the religious pulse of the candidate?

  • Peter Leh

    So why would Jeffress be blessing Trump?

    http://www .christianpost. com/news/pastor-robert-jeffress-says-christians-should-use-religious-litmus-when-voting-for-president-146006/

    • Dave_L

      Jeffress believes in the Rapture Theory that emerged less than 200 years ago. This places him solidly in the “Dispensationalist” Christian Zionist camp. To many, the Dispensationalists are the most dangerous group in the world because they believe a nuclear holocaust in the Middle East will hasten Jesus’ return. (See Road-map to Armageddon by Stephen Sizer).

      They believe today’s State of Israel is the same Israel God made his promises to. The historic Churches however hold that Jesus and believers in him are the Israel of the Bible and to whom the promises pertain.

      When I see a candidate trying for the Oval Office keeping an Israeli flag near by, I can only imagine the worst.

      If interested,for starters see;

      Millions of Evangelical Christians Want to Start WWIII to Speed the “Second Coming” … and Atheist Neocons are Using Religion to Rile Them Up to Justify War Against Iran

      washingtonsblog(DOT)com/2012/02/evangelical-christians-want-to-start-wwiii-to-speed-the-second-coming-and-atheist-neocons-are-using-religion-to-rile-them-up-to-justify-war-against-iran.html

    • Lousie

      I agree. I thought he was sound and discerning.

  • Dave_L

    From what I read, Trump is a huge fan of the State of Israel. He might not believe on the same religious level as the “pastors” desiring his Presidency, but he seems nonetheless their man.

    Jeffress, Jeremiah and many Pentecostals, if not all, believe in the Rapture Theory that emerged less than 200 years ago. This places Them solidly in the “Dispensational” Christian Zionist camp.

    To many, the Dispensationalists are the most dangerous group in the world because they believe a nuclear holocaust in the Middle East will hasten Jesus’ return. They believe today’s State of Israel is the same Israel God made his promises to. The historic Churches (pre 1800s) however hold that Jesus and believers in him are the Israel of the Bible to whom the promises are meant.

    Accordingly, nuclear war is unjust under any circumstances when measured against the destruction is produces.

    for starters see;

    Millions of Evangelical Christians Want to Start WWIII to Speed the “Second Coming” … and Atheist Neocons are Using Religion to Rile Them Up to Justify War Against Iran

    washingtonsblog(DOT)com/2012/02/evangelical-christians-want-to-start-wwiii-to-speed-the-second-coming-and-atheist-neocons-are-using-religion-to-rile-them-up-to-justify-war-against-iran.html

    • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

      Now you are trying to mislead and deceive Christians through *Replacement Theology* You are not Israel.

      • Dave_L

        Please note that God made the promises to Abraham and Jesus;

        “Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” (Galatians 3:16)

        Now, notice that you are also Abraham’s seed because you belong to Jesus;

        “And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” (Galatians 3:29)

        Paul says the natural decendents (children of the flesh) are not Israel.

        “Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:” (Romans 9:6)

        “That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.” (Romans 9:8)

      • Josey

        Thank you, sick of his misleadings.

        • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

          He really needs to stop. He keeps arguing with people.He just won’t stop.Keep him in Prayer. God is the only one who can help him.

  • Rebecca

    Hahahahahaahahaha!!!

  • Lisa Mendez

    I am equally shocked that this was made public…. as if Donald Trump is trying to get the evangelical voters… surprised they didn’t do this for other so called Christian candidates like Ted Cruz or Mike Huckabee???? is it because of popular consensus? son to Donald Trump I say this….. convince me

    • Desertcatn

      Maybe God wanted us to see this, so we could discuss it, who are you to know that isn’t true?

      • Lisa Mendez

        its obvious the prayer chain around him is legit …huckleberry or cruz should have had first pick before trump…if its all about getting Christians to the polls

        • Desertcatn

          Yep, agree, was thinking of all of the great men in the Bible, they were all sinful, but had great passion, like Trump.

  • FoJC_Forever

    Money attracts money. The greedy support the greedy. False teachers of God’s Word will always support those they see as benefiting their false doctrines and personal interests.

    Those who follow Jesus (the) Christ will always shun those who use religion and the Scriptures for their own personal profit. Unfortunately, people often resist the Truth of God’s Word because these kinds of people teach it incorrectly or merely to draw followers to themselves.

    Trump is not protected by God and weapons formed against can prosper, as well as the Truth stated concerning him will not be cast down nor condemned. Donald Trump does not represent Christians.

    • maranathagen67

      And neither did Romney represent Christians!

    • Desertcatn

      You do not know that! This liberation theology, where the rich man is judged to be wanting is very old. If God has blessed Donald Trump, then no weapon formed against him can prosper. You don’t speak for God!

      • FoJC_Forever

        That Scripture is a promise to the servants of the LORD. Donald Trump doesn’t serve the LORD, he serves his own interests – $$$$.

        • Desertcatn

          It’s pretty presumptuous to think you know a man’s heart.

        • Desertcatn

          So you know God’s plans and Donald Trump’s heart, really?

        • Desertcatn

          You can’t possibly know what God’s plans for Donald Trump are, can you? You are acting like you know Donald Trump’s heart, that just because he has money, he is selfish. People without money can be just as selfish.

          • FoJC_Forever

            Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. ~ Jesus (the) Christ

          • Desertcatn

            God will judge DT, FoJC, just like He will judge all of us!

          • Desertcatn

            FoJC, God uses who he uses, most of the men used in the Bible, were broken sinful men! Are you judging God, if He decides to use Donald Trump? Are you going to call God out as wrong?

          • FoJC_Forever

            You defend him because he has money and speaks to your fleshly ways. The people that prayed for him are just religious leaders bilking their followers and cuddling up to a very rich and powerful man.

            Donald Trump is no worse or better than most of the other politicians vying for the office of the POTUS. It’s a goal to further their personal and professional agendas.

            To make statements or declarations that Trump is “God’s man” is in complete error. To encourage those who follow Jesus (the) Christ to vote for him based on spiritual measures is to lead them astray.

            God works out all things for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purposes. The directive for the followers of Jesus (the) Christ is to listen to Him, not the false religious leaders empowered by the spirits of this age and the prince of the power of the air.

            Follow Jesus, find Wisdom.

          • Desertcatn

            I’m not defending Donald Trump, just know that I am not God and I’m not in the position to judge him. Why don’t you let God know that he can’t use Donald Trump.

          • FoJC_Forever

            You don’t even know what the word “judge” means in Scriptural context. Scripturally, to judge someone is to take action against them for a sin they have committed. Stating what or who they are is not judging them.

          • Desertcatn

            Like it or not, I’m not taking the bait. I simply am not in the position to decide (judge) whether God is using Donald Trump, for his purposes. If you are in the position to decide (judge) whether God is using Donald Trump, that is between you and God; take it up with Him.

          • FoJC_Forever

            I’m not baiting you.

            Your definition and understanding of biblical judgement is incorrect.

            Donald Trump is not a Christian. He is not a follower of Jesus (the) Christ. However, he’s no worse nor better than most of the other politicians running for POTUS.

            You can’t take the Righteous position of Truth, because you don’t hear from the LORD.

          • Desertcatn

            I’m not replying in a biblical matter. I’m telling you that I’m not qualified to discern, who God chooses to use and what is in Donald Trump’s heart. You seem to know all about it, so make sure you let God know that Donald Trump is not a Christian. Don’t put words in my mouth, you are the one that claims knowledge, not me.

          • FoJC_Forever

            I only know things concerning this matter from what God has revealed to me. Therefore, I do not need to inform God, because He already knows all, from the Beginning to the End.

          • Desertcatn

            Whoa, who has a God complex here! I’m sure God will be happy that you are speaking for him now, not!

          • Desertcatn

            True, but God uses, who he chooses!

  • Emmanuel

    Trump is surrounding himself with the wrong types of religious nuts. You have these people on the far left and then you have Frank graham on the right. He needs to get with Jesus and have the Holy Spirit lead him through a humble pastor who fears the Lord. God help us!!!!!!

    • Shirley temple dancer

      Emmanuel,
      I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed person like you.

      • Emmanuel

        LOL, what kind of battle? Dance? I use to be a 80s break dancer.

  • Chrissy Vee

    I know Trump had a lot of Christian supporters. I believe ‘had’ is the key word.

    • Bro. Nick

      I could wish that your statement were true – but it is my personal experience that Biblical knowledge – and belief – and discernment are at an all time low here in ‘Amerika’
      – and it is my Biblical understanding that what happened to ancient Israel when they fell so deeply into sin is applicable to this increasingly wicked, evil, spiritually dark “Lord God Almighty” hating country:
      “The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.” – Psalm 12:8, KJV

      – It is my personal understanding that we are indeed living in a ‘post-Christian’ and
      ‘neo-pagan’ country:
      “Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house,
      which have eyes to see, and see not;
      they have ears to hear, and hear not:
      for they are a rebellious house.”
      (Ezekiel 12:2, KJB)

  • Chasity Portis

    On their other hand, TD Jakes has been laying his hands on Obama and advising him along with his gay and Islam filled agenda!!! We are in the last days and our country has come against Israel by trying to divide their land and helping their enemies and We’ve come against God by allowing the abomination of sodomy and lesbianism to be legalized. In this country! Judgement is coming and these Pastors know it!!!

    • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

      Many will depart from the truth and will deceive many.I think it is happening now.

    • Danae D.

      Do you have proof of this accusation against TD Jakes?

  • Chrissy Vee

    Now there is one group of people I would never let lay hands on me. Which god are they praying to?

    • Peter Leh

      with Jeffress there.. you may very well be correct.

    • 123Star

      you are an evil guide, you know nothing about the Faith.

      • Chrissy Vee

        Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. ~Matthew 7:15

        I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
        Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
        For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
        And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
        ~2 Timothy 4:1-4

    • Shirley temple dancer

      Chrissy on the internet you can be anything you want, its strange people like you chose to be stupid
      Yikes!!!!!!!!!ha ha

      • Chrissy Vee

        I forgive you. May the Lord bless you with discernment of spirits that you may see.

    • Desertcatn

      More liberation theology, which is a Marxist construct, by the way.

      • Laurence Charles Ringo

        Hold on,Desertcatn…when YOU quote Scripture,what kind of theology is it? Chrissy Vee is right on the money here.Mull and reflect. When did the great Apostle Paul become a Marxist??

        • Desertcatn

          I’m not quoting scripture, but neither you nor Chrissy know what is in the hearts of these people. It seems like there is a dislike of Donald Trump, because he is rich and that is at the heart of liberation theology. I don’t know where the Apostle Paul came into this, but I know the Pope and Rev. Wright are pushing this Marxist theology and it’s not Biblical.

          • Laurence Charles Ringo

            You’re all over the theological map here, Danae D.,and one of your earlier posts was nothing BUT Scriptures…but no matter.My dislike of Trump’s politics has nothing to do with his wealth,but since you’re practically falling all over yourself in your zeal to endorse him,perhaps you’re simply too blind to see how seriously flawed he is as presidential material.The fact that Trump has no discernable people skills is a HUGE liability in my book; I don’t think that he has the temperment to successfully deal with world leaders. At any rate, I’m bored with this issue.As the old saying goes,the people usually wind up with the leaders they deserve.Good night,and God bless you,Danae D.For what its worth,I admire you for sticking to your principles,even if you’re backing the wrong horse!!—PEACE IN CHRIST, ALWAYS!

          • Desertcatn

            They all are flawed and you have a right to your opinion. I don’t know what else you are talking about, you seem to be the one all over the map.

  • RodSerlingsGhost

    There at the end you could see Jan Crouch, on the far left, wiping her eyes. (3:57 mark)

  • Terry Murphy

    I say this to all who are nay sayers and judgemental to what is going on here…First off no matter what anyone thinks of Trump or these pastors…Yahweh is in charge…Yeshua Hamasiach is Lord and King…so my question to all of you…Whose will is being done here? God takes all that the enemy does and turns it to do His work…for even the rocks will declare the goodness of God. Is God so small in any one of your eyes to think that He will not use this for His glory and purpose. God is not mocked.Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Galations 6:8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.10As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

    We must learn to live by Kingdom principles and start working in the light. Praying that even if this were all for show and deceitfulness, thatYahweh’s will be done and that perhaps the Donald would truly seek the face of God. God does say to pray for our leaders. So I say speak life and conversion into Donald Trump. Speak wisdom and humility, leadership and truth into Trumps life. Start standing as true believers and trust in Adonai, El Shaddai. But know also that if these are the end of days or the end of the age, even if it becomes or appears to be an evil outcome, know that it must be in order for our Father to hasten His return…Let us all repent and change our hearts and minds that we will be found accountable and true…for as we all have fallen short of the glory of God so also do those who stand in high positions…whether it be religious or government…we all are held to the same standards and laws. As God forgives us and sees only Yeshua, so He does for all…who believe and who are called according to His purpose. Do you not know that even Judas did the will of the Father? As awful a deed that could be done, it had to be done, it was God’s will, but look at the result of such a heinous deed…our Lord became our sin…and ultimately became our Salvation…God took the evil and turned it for His purpose…So I say “Thy Will Be Done” nuff said…

    • Laurence Charles Ringo

      Yeah,but you said all that to say WHAT,exactly, Terry,??

  • Donna

    First of all, who says all these people belong to a group? They were asked to come by Mr. Trump. Second, only God can judge the heart of man…not you. Being prosperous is not a sin. If you know scripture you know that. The heart of the person praying is known to God and if they believe in Him then they also know he sees their purpose. Stop judging their intent and his…stand with them in praying I’ve the one man who wants this office so much he’s giving up a lot of his wealth to run for office. Perfection is not a qualification for the office.

    • Wendy R Quinones

      I agree with you. Too many self-righteous people here who think they have the right to judge.

    • Laurence Charles Ringo

      You seem to be putting a whole lot of trust and faith in a mere man,Danae D…Aren’t there Scriptural warnings AGAINST that??

  • Karen Osterblom

    Seriously…”prosperity preachers?” It’s obvious whoever wrote this never watch them and neither have some posters. So what are ppl basing their “false prophet” theory on? I suggest those who are falsely accusing some of these preacher’s better repent. Thou shall not lie is a commandment not a suggestion.

  • Ray Watson

    LORD GOD, I PRAY YOU WILL SO DEEPLY TOUCH DONALD TRUMP THAT HE BECOME YOUR DEVOTED AND DEDICATED FOLLOWER WITHOUT REFERENCE TO THE PRESIDENTIAL CONTEST HE IS MAKING. LORD, IN THE STILLNESS OF THE NIGHT, VISIT HIM, VISIT HIS HEART, VISIT HIS MIND, SOUL, AND SPIRIT AND IMPART TO HIM ALL ALL ALL OF YOUR TRUTH, ALL OF YOUR WISDOM. LET HIM COME TO YOU AS A LITTLE CHILD SEEKING HIS SANCTIFICATION IN YOU ALONE. MAKE HIM YOUR OWN, FATHER

    • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

      If a preacher is wealthy, he is a prosperity preacher–if not to others, then to himself. It is, in fact, not compatible with the teachings of Jesus.

      • maranathagen67

        Wealth in itself is not evil…. it is the love of money. We are to have no other gods before us. What shall it profit a man if he should gain the whole world but lose his own soul? Money and possessions can become gods. But if we invest our treasures in the kingdom of God and live for His glory, He can take what we have and multiply it that the world might hear and be blessed by the propagation of His Word. All that we have belongs to Him regardless of whether we have much or little. Remember the gospel song: “Little is much when God is in it”. Praise God from Whom all blessings flow! Give God the glory!

        • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

          Same argument. You can quote all the verses you like and leave out the one’s you don’t, but the fact remains, Jesus’ social justice philosophy in in contradiction to the view that a good Christian is blessed to be a wealthy Christian.

          But if we invest our treasures in the kingdom of God and live for His glory, He can take what we have and multiply it that the world might hear and be blessed by the propagation of His Word.

          Yes, this is the spiel that self-serving preachers use to get the poorly educated to give them “seed” money.

          • maranathagen67

            Max, I am not a follower or supporter of the health, wealth, and prosperity “gospel”. Why? Because it is not Biblical. I am not talking about the greed and selfish ambition that characterize a lot of ministries in our day. What they are doing is building their own kingdoms on earth and getting fat off the returns and their pleas for support. Once again, if God wants to bless a ministry, that is His prerogative. He must get the glory… not us! Just keep in mind that everything belongs to Him. Most of these HWP ministries are pushy and proud.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Yes, I appreciate your position and have no problem with it. Personally, I think our focus should not be on religion, but to do unto others as we would have them do unto us. Most religions have that tenet, but then build walls of exclusive dogma that crush that greatest one beneath.

            For every person to follow the Golden Rule without conditions, I believe anyone’s god would smile and it would be a FAR better world.

          • maranathagen67

            Max, your theory may sound good, but it simply won’t work. The heart of man is deceitful. And until we deal with the source of our deceit, we will never arrive at a solution. Sin is the product of our fallen nature. We sin and subsequently we war and betray and cheat and lie and murder, etc. It’s the nature of the beast. The Moslems say cut off the heads of the infidels…that’s their solution; the Buddhists tell us that the answer is found in Nirvana; and on and on as you examine the other religions. However, the Christian message tells us that there is hope for mankind in a relationship (NOT religion) with God through His one offering for sin, Jesus Christ. God loves us, Christ died for sinners, and we are offered forgiveness through His redemptive plan. There is no other plan that grants us steadfast hope and security as God’s plan of salvation…. abundant life, eternal life, life beyond the grave. Compare it with all the other “isms” on the market. Once you have discovered the way, the truth and the life in Christ, there is no turning back! You will have found what you have been looking for… peace, joy, love, mercy, grace, purpose, hope… all in a Lord and Savior Who paid the ransom that we might be set free. And it’s all ours for the asking. In fact there is nothing we can do to earn it or deserve it. Paid for in full by the One Who loved us from an old wooden Cross! There is no substitute, nothing else that will work…. guaranteed!

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Yes, humans do have a tendency to xenophobia, aggression, selfishness, and territoriality. These impulses were once instincts necessary for survival as we evolved. Since the evolution of Reason, however, we’ve been able to overcome the instincts such that they are now impulses we can control–easier in some than in others.

            Thus we are born having these genetic predispositions to behavior. Among these predispositions are benevolence and sympathy–once relegated only to close family/tribe, diminishing in strength proportional to the distance from the immediate family. This is still rather strong in us.

            Were we, however, to concentrate on teaching our children the concepts and values of selflessness and benevolent reciprocity instead of the exclusive religious dogma that enhances xenophobia, then I believe we would have a far better world.

            We are making progress, but currently, in my opinion, we need at least another millennia of evolution in our ability to place reason over our base impulses and realize that a child is born neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Muslim, nor atheist, nor an adherent to any other brand of religious or philosophical order. A child is born a human being with an ability to learn and from this raw material society builds her walls of nationalism and religious certitude (nurturing the xenophobic impulse).

            The reason Christians believe as they do is not because it is the “truth,” but because, in the vast majority of cases, they were taught from tothood to believe it–exactly why the Muslims believe as they do.

            When humanity begins to realize this simple fact, then perhaps we can make real progress toward viewing all others as brothers and sisters.

          • maranathagen67

            Evolved? I think not! It’s more like we are suffering from devolution. Mankind’s ideals are more warped than ever. The conscience has been seered. The further they remove themselves from God and His moral standards, the more confused they are as to what is right and what is wrong. And so man does what is right in his own eyes, creating more problems than solutions. Look at society….e.g., same sex marriage: is that normal? It certainly doesn’t fit into the creation role model. God created male and female in the beginning and He said to go forth and multiply. Generally that has worked pretty good. But now there are elements that want to change all of that. And they think that’s an improvement on God’s plan? Lord, help us! It’s not back to the drawing board but back to common sense and reason.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Thus we have it: The point that reason collides with faith.

            This reminds me that you never addressed my logical argument that the reason Christians believe as they do is not because it is the “truth,” but because, in the vast majority of cases, they were taught from tothood to believe it–exactly why the Muslims believe as they do.

            So, perhaps you can address this now? What makes you think your religious beliefs are anymore true than the Muslim, the Hindu, the zoroastrian, or any person of any of the other ancient religions with their ancient manuscripts?

            How do you justify your religion in a way that they cannot?

            Too, this reminds me of an old argument (origin unknown to me):

            Once one realizes the real reason that he rejects all other religions, only then will he realize why they reject his.

          • maranathagen67

            Study it out for yourself, Max…. do some research… check the arguments… the Case for Faith and similar books by Lee Strobel or the New Evidence by Josh McDowell….

            —————————————-
            From: “Disqus”
            Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2015 12:15 PM
            To: [email protected]
            Subject: Re: Comment on Video Shows ‘ Prosperity’ Preachers Kenneth Copeland, Paula White Laying Hands on Donald Trump for Presidency “Thus we have it: The point that reason collides with faith. This reminds me that you never addressed my logical argument that the reason Christians believe as they do is not because it is the “truth,” but because, in the vast majority of cases, they were taught from tothood to believe it–exactly why the Muslims believe as they do. So, perhaps you can address this now? What makes you think your religious beliefs are anymore true than the Muslim, the Hindu, the zoroastrian, or any person of any of the other ancient religions with their ancient manuscripts? How do you justify your religion in a way that they cannot? Too, this reminds me of an old argument (origin unknown to me): Once one realizes the real reason that he rejects all other religions, only then will he realize why they reject his.”
            Settings

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            Max T. Furr

            Thus we have it: The point that reason collides with faith.

            This reminds me that you never addressed my logical argument that the reason Christians believe as they do is not because it is the “truth,” but because, in the vast majority of cases, they were taught from tothood to believe it–exactly why the Muslims believe as they do.
            So, perhaps you can ad dress this now? What makes you think your religious beliefs are anymore true than the Muslim, the Hindu, the zoroastrian, or any person of any of the other ancient religions with their ancient manuscripts?
            How do you justify your religion in a way that they cannot?

            Too, this reminds me of an old argument (origin unknown to me):

            Once one realizes the real reason that he rejects all other religions, only then will he realize why they reject his.
            12:14 p.m., Tuesday Oct. 6 | Other comments by Max T. Furr

            Reply to Max T. Furr

            Max T. Furr’s comment is in reply to maranathagen67:

            Evolved? I think not! It’s more like we are suffering from devolution. Mankind’s ideals are more warped than ever. The conscience has been …
            Read more

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          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Already have. Allow me to repost my earlier reply to bret:

            I was raised to be a de facto fundamentalist Christian, but because of three significant instances in my life, I evolved from that theology.

            In fact, the last incident empelled me to enroll in college to study philosophy, world religions and paleoanthropology. That gave me the objective information and the tools I needed to search for the most probable answers to my questions of origins, existence, theology, and especially, justice.

            My major direction change came when I had a debate with three Mormons who were trying to convert me. After about two hours of friendly debate, I asked them “How do you know that you are right?” All three said that they knew in their hearts they were right.

            I replied that, “yes, I’m sure you do, but so do the Catholics, the Muslims, the Hindu, and every adherent to any religion on Earth. They all know in their hearts that they are right.”

            It wasn’t until the next morning that I awoke to realize that my final argument applied to me as well. I had no more right to believe that the religious “truths” I was taught to believe were, in fact, true. Nor did anyone else of any theology. The logic was irrefutable.

            Virtually all of us believe as we do because it was what we were taught from tothood to believe. That was the day I placed my learned beliefs in abeyance and decided to seek an objective education.

            Having had that education (and still continuing), I find that that my logical argument is still irrefutable.

            My journey from religion, then, gave me the ability to view all people as fundamentally the same and that the only way to achieve peace is not by doctrinal exclusivity, but by benevolent reciprocity (the Golden Rule).

            Most religions incorporate that rule among their tenets, but then they built solid walls of exclusive dogma that crush the greatest one beneath and thereby block the path to peace and brotherhood. Thus, I prefer reason and inclusiveness to exclusive, dogmatic faith.

          • maranathagen67

            I was raised to be a de facto fundamentalist Christian, but because of three significant instances in my life, I evolved from that theology.
            The point is that you were raised TO BE…. I assume you had the correct information and basic fundamentals presented to you. But it would appear that all you had were the facts… empty religious dogma that was never appropriated by the faith that saves. Did you seek God with all of your heart and mind and soul? Did you truly recognize your lost eternal state because of the pride and sin that separated you from a holy God? Did you humble yourself under the hand of the Almighty and realize that you were not fit for the kingdom of God? Did you cry out for God’s mercy to rescue you from the misery and wretchedness of your lost condition? If you have never seen yourself as lost and blind, then you will never see any need to repent. If you think that the Golden Rule is going to get you through, then you have been deceived by the enemy. There is none righteous, no not one. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Seek ye the Lord while He may be found, call ye upon Him while He is near. There is a way that seems right unto man but the ways thereof are the ways of death. If Jesus emphatically said that He is the only way and the only Truth and the only Life, then it’s only common sense that we would put our life in His hands. He satisfied God’s demands for a substitute Who could pay the price of our sins in full to set us free and provide perfect forgiveness. If you reject God’s offer of grace and God’s plan of salvation, then there is nothing more that can be done for your soul. And that would be a tragic ending when everything was accomplished on your behalf to set you free and redeem your sinful soul. All that Christ suffered for us would have been in vain. But the choice remains to be ours. He never forces Himself on anyone even though He is not willing that any should perish but that all would come to repentance. You can be an atheist or an agnostic. But you can’t blame God should you end up in the fires of everlasting Hell. That’s not where He wants you… He’s gone to prepare a place for you in Heaven. To take advantage of His great offer, the answer is clear: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved”. Don’t harden your heart to the Truth, Max. Eternity is a long time to be wrong.
            —————————————-
            From: “Disqus”
            Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2015 9:46 AM
            To: [email protected]
            Subject: Re: Comment on Video Shows ‘ Prosperity’ Preachers Kenneth Copeland, Paula White Laying Hands on Donald Trump for Presidency “Already have. Allow me to repost my earlier reply to bret: I was raised to be a de facto fundamentalist Christian, but because of three significant instances in my life, I evolved from that theology. In fact, the last incident empelled me to enroll in college to study philosophy, world religions and paleoanthropology. That gave me the objective information and the tools I needed to search for the most probable answers to my questions of origins, existence, theology, and especially, justice. My major direction change came when I had a debate with three Mormons who were trying to convert me. After about two hours of friendly debate, I asked them “How do you know that you are right?” All three said that they knew in their hearts they were right. I replied that, “yes, I’m sure you do, but so do the Catholics, the Muslims, the Hindu, and every adherent to any religion on Earth. They all know in their hearts that they are right.” It wasn’t until the next morning that I awoke to realize that my final argument applied to me as well. I had no more right to believe that the religious “truths” I was taught to believe were, in fact, true. Nor did anyone else of any theology. The logic was irrefutable. Virtually all of us believe as we do because it was what we were taught from tothood to believe. That was the day I placed my learned beliefs in abeyance and decided to seek an objective education. Having had that education (and still continuing), I find that that my logical argument is still irrefutable. My journey from religion, then, gave me the ability to view all people as fundamentally the same and that the only way to achieve peace is not by doctrinal exclusivity, but by benevolent reciprocity (the Golden Rule). Most religions incorporate that rule among their tenets, but then they built solid walls of exclusive dogma that crush the greatest one beneath and thereby block the path to peace and brotherhood. Thus, I prefer reason and inclusiveness to exclusive, dogmatic faith.”
            Settings

            A new comment was posted on Christian News Network

            —————————————-

            Max T. Furr

            Already have. Allow me to repost my earlier reply to bret:

            I was raised to be a de facto fundamentalist Christian, but because of three significant instances in my life, I evolved from that theology.
            In fact, the last incident empelled me to enroll in college to study philosophy, world religions and paleoanthropology. That gave me the objective information and the tools I needed to search for the most probable answers to my questions of origins, existence, theology, and especially, justice.
            My major direction change came when I h ad a debate with three Mormons who were trying to convert me. After about two hours of friendly debate, I asked them “How do you know that you are right?” All three said that they knew in their hearts they were right.
            I replied that, “yes, I’m sure you do, but so do the Catholics, the Muslims, the Hindu, and every adherent to any religion on Earth. They all know in their hearts that they are right.”
            It wasn’t until the next morning that I awoke to realize that my final argument applied to me as well. I had no more right to believe that the religious “truths” I was taught to believe were, in fact, true. Nor did anyone else of any theology. The logic was irrefutable.
            Virtually all of us believe as we do because it was what we were taught from tothood to believe. That was the day I placed my learned beliefs in abeyance and decided to seek an objective education.
            Having had that education (and still continuing), I find that that my logical arg ument is still irrefutable.
            My journey from religion, then, gave me the ability to view all people as fundamentally the same and that the only way to achieve peace is not by doctrinal exclusivity, but by benevolent reciprocity (the Golden Rule).
            Most religions incorporate that rule among their tenets, but then they built solid walls of exclusive dogma that crush the greatest one beneath and thereby block the path to peace and brotherhood. Thus, I prefer reason and inclusiveness to exclusive, dogmatic faith.
            9:46 a.m., Sunday Oct. 11 | Other comments by Max T. Furr

            Reply to Max T. Furr

            Max T. Furr’s comment is in reply to maranathagen67:

            Study it out for yourself, Max…. do some research… check the arguments… the Case for Faith and similar books by Lee Strobel or the New …
            Read more

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          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            No need to dwell on the strength of belief. I called myself a de facto fundamentalist because, fortunately, I possessed another attribute that allowed for a molecule of independent thought and a very strong desire for intellectual honesty.

            In other words, once I found, from my own reading and thinking, that there were definite contradictions in the Bible, and understanding intuitively that both sides of a contradiction cannot possibly be true, instead of recoiling from that cognitive dissonance, I was empelled to study further to find a logical resolution and accept that resolution no matter how it might make me feel.

            There are two levels of faith, one rather natural and commonplace, and the other is downright dangerous:

            Faith: The belief in the truth of a proposition in the absence of evidence to the contrary. I might, for example, believe that John killed Sam, but I’ve found no evidence to substantiate my belief. Still, I believe it nonetheless.

            Blind Faith: The belief in the truth of a proposition even in the face of evidence to the contrary (reject any evidence to the contrary in favor of faith)–to believe, for example, in the truth of the biblical creation story even though there are volumes of objective, scientific evidence supporting evolution and none supporting the biblical creation.

            A second example of blind faith is to reject the evidence that a mistranslation (purposefully or not) brought about the belief that Jesus was born of a virgin and it was prophesied by Daniel. I believe it was a purposeful mistranslation. Either way, it is more evidence that the Bible is not accurate. Then, of course, there is the fact that the different Gospels do not agree on the facts of the resurrection.

            There are many more. I cover the more logical errors in the preface of The Empathy Imperative, which can be googled. I would provide the URL to the preface, but that seems to be forbidden on Disque.

            Basically, then, it is my view that no belief is worth suspending logic and evidence just for the sake of believing. It is that sort of faith that led to the Jonestown and the Heaven’s Gate incidences.

          • maranathagen67

            Max, you’re missing out. Faith is all about trust. Objective faith… faith in something, someone. Biblical saving faith of course is centered in Jesus Christ. You either have it or you do not. And it would seem that in your case this crucial element is a missing commodity. You were exposed to a religion but never found a relationship. And apart from that, the consequences are disastrous. It’s still there for you to discover, but you must determine that is what you want. God will introduce Himself to you if you are a sincere seeker. There is hope but only so if you seek Him with all your heart. If you are satisfied with the other gods of this world, then you lose out not only now but in eternity. “There is a way which seemeth right unto man but the ways thereof are the ways of death (eternal separation from God)”. The question is Max, what will you do with Jesus? He awaits your answer.

            —————————————-
            From: “Disqus”
            Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 11:56 AM
            To: [email protected]
            Subject: Re: Comment on Video Shows ‘ Prosperity’ Preachers Kenneth Copeland, Paula White Laying Hands on Donald Trump for Presidency “No need to dwell on the strength of belief. I called myself a de facto fundamentalist because, fortunately, I possessed another attribute that allowed for a molecule of independent thought and a very strong desire for intellectual honesty. In other words, once I found, from my own reading and thinking, that there were definite contradictions in the Bible, and understanding intuitively that both sides of a contradiction cannot possibly be true, instead of recoiling from that cognitive dissonance, I was empelled to study further to find a logical resolution and accept that resolution no matter how it might make me feel. There are two levels of faith, one rather natural and commonplace, and the other is downright dangerous: Faith: The belief in the truth of a proposition in the absence of evidence to the contrary. I might, for example, believe that John killed Sam, but I’ve found no evidence to substantiate my belief. Still, I believe it nonetheless. Blind Faith: The belief in the truth of a proposition even in the face of evidence to the contrary (reject any evidence to the contrary in favor of faith)–to believe, for example, in the truth of the biblical creation story even though there are volumes of objective, scientific evidence supporting evolution and none supporting the biblical creation. A second example of blind faith is to reject the evidence that a mistranslation (purposefully or not) brought about the belief that Jesus was born of a virgin and it was prophesied by Daniel. I believe it was a purposeful mistranslation. Either way, it is more evidence that the Bible is not accurate. Then, of course, there is the fact that the different Gospels do not agree on the facts of the resurrection. There are many more. I cover the more logical errors in the preface of The Empathy Imperative, which can be googled. I would provide the URL to the preface, but that seems to be forbidden on Disque. Basically, then, it is my view that no belief is worth suspending logic and evidence just for the sake of believing. It is that sort of faith that led to the Jonestown and the Heaven’s Gate incidences.”
            Settings

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            —————————————-

            Max T. Furr

            No need to dwell on the strength of belief. I called myself a de facto fundamentalist because, fortunately, I possessed another attribute that allowed for a molecule of independent thought and a very strong desire for intellectual honesty.
            In other words, once I found, from my own reading and thinking, that there were definite contradictions in the Bible, and understanding intuitively that both sides of a contradiction cannot possibly be true, instead of recoiling from that cognitive dissonance, I was empelled to study further to find a logical resolution and accept that resolution no matter how it might make me feel.
            There are two levels of faith, one rather natural and commonplace, and the other is downright dangerous:
            Faith: The belief in the truth of a proposition in the absence of evidence to the contrary. I might, for example, believe that John killed Sam, but I’ve found no evidence to substantiate my belief. Still, I believe it nonetheless.
            Blind Faith: The belief in the truth of a proposition even in the face of evidence to the contrary (reject any evidence to the contrary in favor of faith)–to believe, for example, in the truth of the biblical creation story even though there are volumes of objective, scientific evidence supporting evolution and none supporting the biblical creation.
            A second example of blind faith is to reject the evidence that a mistranslation (purposefully or not) brought about the belief that Jesus was born of a virgin and it was prophesied by Daniel. I believe it was a purposeful mistranslation. Either way, it is more evidence that the Bible is not accurate. Then, of course, there is the fact that the different Gospels do not agree on the facts of the resurrection.
            There are many more. I cover the more logical errors in the preface of The Empathy Imperative, which can be googled. I would provide the URL to the preface, but that seems to be forbidden on Disque.
            Basically, then, it is my view that no belief is worth suspending logic and evidence just for the sake of believing. It is that sort of faith that led to the Jonestown and the Heaven’s Gate incidences.
            11:53 a.m., Monday Oct. 12 | Other comments by Max T. Furr

            Reply to Max T. Furr

            Max T. Furr’s comment is in reply to maranathagen67:

            I was raised to be a de facto fundamentalist Christian, but because of three significant instances in my life, I evolved from that theology. The …

            Read more

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          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            “Objective” faith? I have faith that humankind will someday, perhaps in another millennium, evolve enough reasoning ability and empathy to pull himself up by the roots of his exclusive, ancient religions, tear down the walls of exclusive dogma and venture out to meet each other in peace.

            So long as exclusive, fundamentalism exists, however, which essentially places one’s mind in a lockbox where virtually no one accepts the reason he believe as he does, understands why he rejects all other faiths and why they reject his, no peace will be found.

            Humanity need to collectively come to understand that religious and political exclusivity is possibly the major obstacles in the path to peace. We need to dump the dogma and come out of Plato’s allegorical cave into the light of reason.

            I need no faith to understand that the scientific method is the best means of discerning the true nature of natural phenomena. One can have faith that a creator exists, but no one should shut out reason in order to maintain the faith. It is self-delusion.

            I think we have exhausted this debate and will accomplish nothing if you continue to simply urge me to accept blind faith but will not engage in substantive issues such as mistranslations, biblical contradictions, and the mythological nature of biblical stories.

            Thank you for your civility.

          • maranathagen67

            I think you are right, Max… all I can do is direct you to the Source of vibrant, living faith that can bring us to the end of that which we have been searching for. God is still there, Max… He hasn’t moved… and He is still in the business of rescuing and restoring lost souls. I trust you will discover Him in all His wonder and majesty and love and grace. Peace and joy awaits those who will come to the end of themselves and simply believe and be one with God and His Son, Jesus Christ. He awaits our response….
            Hope thou in God!
            Maranatha!
            Gerry

            —————————————-
            From: “Disqus”
            Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:00 AM
            To: [email protected]
            Subject: Re: Comment on Video Shows ‘ Prosperity’ Preachers Kenneth Copeland, Paula White Laying Hands on Donald Trump for Presidency “”Objective” faith? I have faith that humankind will someday, perhaps in another millennium, evolve enough reasoning ability and empathy to pull himself up by the roots of his exclusive, ancient religions, tear down the walls of exclusive dogma and venture out to meet each other in peace. So long as exclusive, fundamentalism exists, however, which essentially places one’s mind in a lockbox where virtually no one accepts the reason he believe as he does, understands why he rejects all other faiths and why they reject his, no peace will be found. Humanity need to collectively come to understand that religious and political exclusivity is possibly the major obstacles in the path to peace. We need to dump the dogma and come out of Plato’s allegorical cave into the light of reason. I need no faith to understand that the scientific method is the best means of discerning the true nature of natural phenomena. One can have faith that a creator exists, but no one should shut out reason in order to maintain the faith. It is self-delusion. I think we have exhausted this debate and will accomplish nothing if you continue to simply urge me to accept blind faith but will not engage in substantive issues such as mistranslations, biblical contradictions, and the mythological nature of biblical stories. Thank you for your civility.”
            Settings

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            Max T. Furr

            “Objective” faith? I have faith that humankind will someday, perhaps in another millennium, evolve enough reasoning ability and empathy to pull himself up by the roots of his exclusive, ancient religions, tear down the walls of exclusive dogma and venture out to meet each other in peace.
            So long as exclusive, fundamentalism exists, however, which essentially places one’s mind in a lockbox where virtually no one accepts the reason he believe as he does, understands why he rejects all other faiths and why they reject his, no peace will be found.
            Humanity need to collectively come to understand that religious and political exclusivity is possibly the major obstacles in the path to peace. We need to dump the dogma and come out of Plato’s allegorical cave into the light of reason.
            I need no faith to understand that the scientific method is the best means of discerning the true nature of natural phenomena. One can have faith that a creator exists, but no one should shut out reason in order to maintain the faith. It is self-delusion.
            I think we have exhausted this debate and will accomplish nothing if you continue to simply urge me to accept blind faith but will not engage in substantive issues such as mistranslations, biblical contradictions, and the mythological nature of biblical stories.
            Thank you for your civility.

            10:58 a.m., Wednesday Oct. 14 | Other comments by Max T. Furr

            Reply to Max T. Furr

            Max T. Furr’s comment is in reply to maranathagen67:

            Max, you’re missing out. Faith is all about trust. Objective faith… faith in something, someone. Biblical saving faith of course is centered in Jesus …
            Read more

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          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Be well.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Odd, I could have sworn I responded to your message, but apparently, I did not.

            You need not dwell on the strength of my early faith. No matter how much I might defend that strength, you would likely say it was not strong enough.

            Should I have chosen to ignore the contradictions I found on my own–contradictions that religious “authorities” did not or could not answer when asked?

            Should I have simply assumed what I’d been taught to believe was without question, the truth? Should I have not questioned at all? If not, then I would possess no intellectual honesty, and willful self-deceit is very repugnant to me. I had, and have, an attribute for which I know of no origin–a strong desire for evidential truth. Where unbelief collides with contrary evidence, I must go with the contrary evidence.

            It is clear to me that were I to believe unquestionably, I could very well be on the road to Jonestown or approaching Heaven’s Gate.

            Faith is the belief in the truth of a proposition where there is no evidence to the contrary, e.g., that the Jews destroyed Jericho and sequentially other cities as described in the Book of Joshua or statements that suggest that the god of the OT omnibenevolent, omniscient, just, and mercyful.

            Objective archaeological research suggests that there was no Israelite invasion and contrary evidence to the god of the OT being just and merciful is found in writings of “his” own actions and reactions. Too, the illogic is astoundingly deep.

            I came to the conclusion that any belief that demands suspension of scientific knowledge in order to believe it, is not worth believing.

            Blind faith is belief in the truth of a proposition even in the face of evidence to the contrary. That is also self-delusional and irrational.

            Your entire argument is one of unfounded, blind devotion to an entity unconfirmed to exist and an (apparently invented) avatar of that unconfirmed god. It is an argument of pure faith, unadulterated by facts. Had you happened to have been born in a Zoroastrian family/society, most likely you would have the same devotion to Ahura Masda. (Well, actually, I think Christianity is a neo-Zoroastrian religion, as many of its beliefs parallel Zoroastrian beliefs that are much older than Christianity).

            For a person to have a religious faith is fine with me. Believe what you want and worship the god in whom you believe.

            The only problem I have with blind faith is that–beyond the rejection of reason and science–it tends to creep into politics and then into law–e.g., anti-stem cell research, anti-marriage equality, government sponsorship of one religion over others, government control over a woman’s reproductive decisions, the old Blue Laws, using public property to further one’s religion over others, etc.

            I value my curiosity and drive to investigate for truth. I love my free mind and its rejection of unfounded beliefs. I do not wish to be led, but I wish to explore and discover, leaving the mystery, inexplicable to me, to science. I value trying to do unto others as I would have them do unto me, and not rejecting others simply because they do not think as I.

            Lastly, you and I could probably be good friends and have many fine debates over a glass of wine and baseball bats.:D

    • Terry

      Need to pray for conviction by the Holy Spirit that he will be able to repent.

      • Desertcatn

        What has he to repent for, being rich, Jesus Christ was not a Marxist!

        • Terry

          The prayer was that he would “become” Christ’s devoted and dedicated follower. That speaks of the need for salvation to me which requires repentance. I do not assume he is saved or lost, just going by what Ray Watson said. A “visit” from God, “imparting truth,” and to “make God his Father.” All of this is what the born again believer ALREADY has.

          • Desertcatn

            You or I don’t know if he has done that, though, it’s all I’m saying. In my opinion, Donald Trump may have begun a spiritual journey during this campaign, a lot of this stuff goes on behind the scenes, we just don’t know.

          • Desertcatn

            How do you know Donald Trump hasn’t done that? Faith is a private thing and this campaign has brought Trump into a new realm. We don’t know God’s plan for Donald Trump, it’s wrong to assume when we don’t know.

          • Terry

            You are right. You and I both assume when only God knows for sure. Neither of us know if he is a true believer or just using these people or perhaps we could say, using God.

          • Desertcatn

            I’ve been praying about this, our country is so messed up and we are seeing prophecy being fulfilled in the ME. You are right, it could be any of those things, DT is a different sort of candidate than we have had in the past. I know I’m just tired of the political establishment, it’s gotten us what we have, so maybe I’m just hoping a different kind of man could help. Hoping anyway!

          • Terry

            Hope is certainly a good thing to have, especially in times like these. I like Donald fine but I also like Ben Carson, he is different too.

          • Desertcatn

            I like Ben, too, he’s finding his voice and not backing down. Also, like Ted Cruz.

    • Shirley temple dancer

      AMEN

    • Desertcatn

      Amen!

  • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

    If a preacher is wealthy, he is a prosperity preacher–if not to others, then to himself. It is, in fact, against the social philosophy of Jesus.

    • Desertcatn

      You are preaching liberation theology, the same as Rev. Wright, it isn’t biblical.

      • Laurence Charles Ringo

        If you actually believe that, Danae D.,then Jesus was WAAY out of line in telling the “Rich Young Ruler” to…”sell all that you have, give it to the poor,then pick up your cross and follow me,and you shall have treasure in Heaven”…Yes?

        • Desertcatn

          What are you talking about, I’m not Danae D., though I agree with her comments. No, as important as caring for the poor is, it isn’t to take the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ; man’s primary need is spiritual, not social justice! Most importantly, the gospel of Jesus Christ is for all people, including the rich!

          Discrimination by social class is something that divides the church, Jesus Christ brings unity to His church, not division! This liberation theology is Marxist and designed to divide us and play us against each other and it is not Biblical!

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Wow! How the conservative mind rebels against cognitive dissonance.

            Your circular argument is stunning. Taking care of the poor IS the gospel of Jesus. So, you are saying that the gospel of Jesus is not as important as his gospel. Preaching it holds no one to abide by it?

            Amazing.

          • Desertcatn

            No, you are wrong and I stand by what I said. The gospel of Jesus Christ is for spiritual needs, not social justice and it is for all persons, not just a certain class of people.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Either you’ve never read the Gospels, or you have and are striving hard not to follow its teachings. That’s OK. But were those words to be followed, there would be no “classes” of people. But, you obviously disagree. I take from your position that Jesus’ admonitions are not to be followed, but to be preached and believed.

          • bret

            “But you have neglected the more important matters of the law: JUSTICE, mercy and faithfulness.” (Matthew 23:23) When the Son of Man returns in his glory with the holy angels he shall sit upon his throne. And before him shall be gathered all the nations of the earth. And he shall separate the peoples as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. Then the King shall say to the sheep, come, blessed of my Father and inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you feed me. I was thirsty and you gave me drink. I was a stranger and you took me in. I was naked and you clothed me. I was sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you visited me. Then shall the righteous answer and say, Lord, when did we see thee: hungry, thirsty, a stranger, naked, sick or in prison? And the King shall answer and say, Inasmuch as you have done it unto the least of these, you have done it unto me. Then the King shall say unto the goats. Whatever you did not do unto one of the least of these, you did not do unto me. Depart from me, ye cursed into the fire of eternal punishment prepared for the devil and his angels, but the righteous to eternal life. (Matthew 25:31-46)

          • Desertcatn

            My argument is against those using the gospel of Jesus to justify socialist policies, nothing more. It’s not that hard!

          • bret

            Well it is not that simple either. Please read (Luke 18:18-27) (Acts 4:32-37) (Acts 5:1-10).

          • Desertcatn

            I will read it.

          • Desertcatn

            It actually is that simple, we are not to use the gospel to promote our political beliefs; which liberation theology is, pure Marxism.

          • bret

            It sounds as if you are advocating for the Separation of Church and State. I don’t know how you can say we are not suppose to use the gospel to promote our political beliefs. If our political beliefs are based on Biblical teachings I see no real difference. The gospel becomes part of the overall belief-system that any sincere Christian holds. Many Republican candidates claim they are promoting Christian values. Where do Christian values come from….the Bible….the Gospel. And the likes of Billy and Franklin Graham and many others in the Church have been politically active for years. As well as advising, in one form or another, as to which candidates Christians should vote for. Currently the worst offenders according to your logic would be Ben Carson and Mike Huckabee.

            Donald Trump can’t offend in this area for he doesn’t even know the gospel in the first place. And I completely disagree with your position. We most certainly can use the gospel to promote our beliefs, political or otherwise. So long as the two are in relative harmony with each other. The gospel of Christ is very much a political, social and economic gospel indeed. But it is an implied social gospel. For we are to attempt to live by the Golden Rule and Christ commissioned us to take his gospel to the four winds of the earth. The implications of these two things alone seem to necessitate an implied social gospel. If there were no emphasis on the Great Commission or the spreading of the gospel I might agree with you. But then you and I would not be Christians would we. For we would have never heard the gospel in the first place.

            Part of the duty of the Body of Christ is to minimize suffering and maximize justice in this world. For as Jesus said, “You are the salt of the earth.” (Matthew 5:13) That scripture along with the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20) seem to command a social gospel. The problem seems to be you are in disagreement with Max T. Furr’s idea of which socioeconomic philosophy will best accomplish the fulfillment of Christ’s teachings on a societal or global scale. And that is definitely a very debatable issue indeed. But I do agree with you in principle, the spreading of Christ’s “true” gospel will do the most good for the most people in the long run. And it also seems when the Church gets itself tied-up in political, social and economic activities the spreading of the gospel suffers.

          • Desertcatn

            If you are out there promoting high taxation, so you can support social justice programs; that would be wrong! Look up Liberation Theology, if you are interested in finding out why. If you are fighting to stop Planned Parenthood funding, because killing babies and selling their body parts is so wrong; then that would be right.

            Of course, some Christians on this forum, think it’s perfectly okay to do the former and not do the latter, but that is between them and God. You can let God know yourself, that Donald Trump isn’t suitable to use, since you know better than God on that one.

          • Desertcatn

            Church and State should be separated, otherwise we have a government-sanctioned church and that why the Pilgrims escaped England to come to America; does Freedom of Religion ring a bell!

          • bret

            Well you have taken a position that the vast majority of Donald Trump supporters would disagree with. And as far as atheists and agnostics are concerned America has not separated Church and State near enough. I am not in favor of a government sanctioned Church either but in some regards we already have that and have had it for a long time. The American Civil Religion. A watered-down socially acceptable adulterated version of true Biblical Christianity. Currently the “world” is stripping that away and this is what most Christians are fighting to keep right now. Whether they know it or not.

            Your position seems to be one of Christian isolationism. So why are you so intensely keen on the idea of Donald Trump being used of God? Your logic is confusing. If you don’t want a Christian nation why do you want God to use Donald Trump? And if you don’t care enough about your fellow man to pay some extra taxes why do you even bother to call yourself a Christian in the first place? And if Christians would fully support the “social justice” of making the big corporations and the rich pay their fair share of taxes, we could take care of everyone’s needs and you could be as cheap, stingy and heartless as you seemingly desire to be.

          • Desertcatn

            Don’t put words in my mouth, my stance is that, God may be using Donald Trump, I personally don’t know. That response is in regards to your insistence that Donald Trump is not a Christian, which you are in no position to judge. Only God knows a man’s heart and it’s up to God, if He chooses to use a man.

            The extra money paid in taxes isn’t getting used for poor people, so I do care that it’s being used to buy votes. I help poor people out of my own pocket, I don’t expect the government to take someone else’s money, so I can feel good about myself. You seem to buy into the whole liberation theology, which is Marxism, because that is where that comes from!

            It is Biblical prophecy that the church would come to this state, read your Bible, there are letters written to the different churches. Things are only going to get worse, so our personal faith becomes all the more important, as the number of false teachers increases. You have set yourself up as some kind of judge of who is a Christian and that is God’s domain. God uses people for His own reasons and you need to take that up with Him, if you don’t approve of the people He uses!

          • bret

            This is my last reply to you. I know Donald Trump is not a Christian because I read. The Charisma News website has had at least 20 articles and interviews with Donald Trump in the last four months. Anyone who can’t see that Donald Trump is not a saved person is spiritually blind. And even if a person was not voting for a candidate based on their religious beliefs or lack thereof, anyone familiar with “The Donald” would know better. He is a very unpleasant, undesirable, immature, egotistical narcissistic windbag of an individual who is light-years away from being anything close to presidential material. Even if one does not count against him his three marriages, four bankruptcies, numerous extramarital affairs and his obscene reality television show that sets a horrendous example for decent human behavior towards others.

            As far as putting words in other people’s mouths….I am not a Marxist. But I am a firm believer in the Christian socioeconomic principles of FDR and the old-guard Democratic Party. Social Security, SSI, Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, federal aid for education etc. Indeed these programs do not go nearly far enough. Many countries who do not profess Christ do much more to take care of their own people. And as the scriptures tell us, those who don’t take care of their own have denied the faith. If America can not see fit to install and maintain a just, fair and reasonably equal society it deserves the judgment of Almighty God to fall upon it. And in this regards and in no other do I see any divine usefulness in Donald Trump. Yet another incompetent self-serving glory-seeker to led America further down the road to ruin.

          • Desertcatn

            Well, we can agree to disagree then. Enjoy your evening.

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            Hmm, after 10 months I come back to this page.

            we are not to use the gospel to promote our political beliefs

            You mean like favoring laws that deprive others the right to seek happiness by marrying the ones they love, and blocking women from having control over their own reproductive lives, and pushing creationism in science classes and prayer in public schools?

            Of course, the Bible usually is not mentioned in those efforts but we know very well what motivates you to intrude into the lives of others.

          • Desertcatn

            You again, lol. Still purposely missing my point. Okay, I’ll bite. First, I don’t care who gets married, though, but people shouldn’t be required to bake a cake, marry or be forced to sanction, actions that are against their religious beliefs. Two, when the reproductive life is already created, it’s a completely different issue.

            Finally, three, evolution has not been proven and has many gaps, it requires the same faith to believe in it, as creationism. If kids want to pray in school, let them, but no one should be forced to pray or not pray.

            You on the left, are just as intrusive, though for your own beliefs, so way to be a total hypocrite.

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            LOL! When you say that you should not use the Gospel to promote political beliefs, you beg the question, What political beliefs?

            That opens a wide range of political circumstances and hypotheses in which fundamentalists do, indeed, use the Gospel/religion to promote political action against laws they do not like and those they want made to force society to bend to their religious belief.

            You seem to be agreeing that they should not do that.

            people shouldn’t be required to bake a cake, marry or be forced to sanction, actions that are against their religious beliefs. Two, when the reproductive life is already created, it’s a completely different issue.

            First, exactly who has been forced to marry anyone for any reason?

            Secondly, exactly who is being forced to sanction marriages of which they don’t approve?

            But I know where you are going with that.

            If a person opens a business licensed to engage in commerce to the public, that license is given by a government agency that is supported by every citizen’s tax dollars.

            Too, all citizens in the U.S. have a RIGHT to participate in legal commerce as long as they are abiding by the laws. For a business owner to deny that right to a group because he does not like their looks or the way they live or whom they marry, even if it is his religious belief, is immoral.

            Your religious freedom extends only so far as it does not encumber the freedom of any other citizen.

            Finally, three, evolution has not been proven and has many gaps . . .

            Creationism does not follow the scientific method and therefore it is not science. Evolutionary scientists DO follow the scientific method–which every good student learns in high school.

            This is the major difference between science and creationism:

            A scientist begins with a question about a natural phenomenon of which little is known. She formulates a hypothesis based on similar phenomena and/or past experiments and/or physics. She then sets up experiments (or field work) based on a question: If my hypothesis is correct, then if I do this experiment, or search there, I should get more evidence that my hypothesis is correct.

            If evidence is found that refutes her hypothesis, she tosses out the hypothesis for one that better fits the evidence and then begins again with experiments. Once she arrives at a hypothesis that she cannot refute, then she publishes her finding along with a detailed discription of her experiments. Other scientists then duplicate the experiments and think of some of their own. If they cannot refute the hypothesis, it has been independently verified.

            The creationist, on the other hand, begins with a conclusion–God did it. Then he goes about searching for evidence to support his conclusion. When evidence is found that might cast doubt on his conclusion, he tosses out the evidence. Mainly, however, they just try to refute the theory of evolution and have yet to be successful. Why? Because it is belief battling facts.

            The point is that with creationism, at no time and under no circumstance will a creationist doubt his conclusion.

            That is NOT science. To suggest it should be taught in science classes is tantamount to teaching that Copernicus and Galileo were wrong about the heliocentricity of the solar system. After all, it just ain’t biblical.

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            Intrusive? As I’ve stated before, the only beef I have with many fundamentalists is their insistence that others in society must abide by their religious beliefs.

            All of the laws now being pushed through to deprive women of their right to their own reproductive lives are religious laws. All attempts to suppress the vote are indirectly because of religious belief. All the attempts to stuff creationism and vocal, sectarian prayer into public school classrooms is from religious belief. You may not be in favor of all this, but a great many fundamentalists are. That is called “intrusive.”

            My coming to religious blogs to try to enhance the conversation is squarely with John Stuart Mill’s philosophy on free speech and education through debate. I always welcome civil debate from religious folks.

            As well, I am trying to get the notion across that we should do unto others as we would have them do unto us. In other words, let other citizens live their lives according to the dictates of their own conscience just as you want to live yours. Religious freedom does not mean that the majority religion can force others to abide by their sense of morality as derived from ancient, pre-science text.

            Were fundamentalists to stop trying to have the government favor their religion, there would be no Americans United for the Separation of Church and State nor any other such groups pushing back. All that needs to be done is just enjoy your religion, offer it to others via word of mouth, statements on blogs and even erect billboards, but just leave the rest of us to do the same.

          • Desertcatn

            So, take it up with the fundamentalists. Why do you care? Maybe women should keep their legs closed more and think about the consequences, which are more than just a baby.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            I think Jesus would be in favor of feeding and clothing the poor in every way possible.
            It is clear that there are not enough individuals to accomplish what needs to be done, so organizations/government must take up the slack. After all, it is political injustice that causes much of the poverty and suffering and the only way to change that is to make politics work for social justice by eliminating corporate political bribery/fear tactics.
            The only candidate that has that at the top of his agenda is Bernie Sanders.

          • Desertcatn

            Okay, Max.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Actually, social justice IS for all people. That’s why it’s called “social” justice.
            I think your Jesus would have thought that everyone has equal worth and lifting up the poor, the sick, and the imprisoned to a better life benevolent reciprocity is a noble thing.

          • Desertcatn

            He’s your Jesus, too, Max. You are purposely missing my point, so not interested in discussing this further.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            And you miss the logic. I agree. No need to go further.

          • Desertcatn

            Yes, we agree finally.

      • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

        Sorry sir, but our view of what is “biblical” is quite a confusion. You seem to be trying to reconcile the contradiction of the admonitions of Jesus with the “Old” testament Job where devout piety is greater than justice and mercy.

        Just what is your definition of “justice?”

        • Desertcatn

          I’m a woman, not a man. The gospel of Jesus Christ is for all people, not just the poor and it’s main purpose served is spiritual, not social justice. It’s not up to me to define justice, just know that whoever divides Christians, will be under God’s judgement. Jesus Christ came to unite the church, not divide it according to class, creed or color!

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            First, it is impossible to tell your gender from your screen moniker or avatar. Second, Jesus’ admonition about how wealthy people could follow him and about helping the poor (Matthew 25:32-46) was exclusive.

            It is indeed incumbent for everyone who spouts views dealing with justice to have some definition of justice. Are you in the habit of discussing matters of justice without knowing what “justice” means?

            And, Christians have divided themselves for hundreds of years. They need no help from any outsiders.

            I am familiar, however, with the argument among some denominations that other Christian denominations are not Christian.

            Fundamentalist Christians have been for many years denouncing Catholicism as “of the devil” –even while they swear that the KJV was God’s infallible word.

            Would you agree that if you had been raised to believe in Islam, you would likely be just as fervent about that belief as you are about Christianity?

          • Desertcatn

            Sure, but God finds a way to reach people. People do all kinds of wrong things, that’s why Jesus Christ died on the cross to wash our sins. None of us will be perfect, but the gospel of Jesus is for all and creating division is wrong.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Thousands of people died on crosses. And, people are still tortured to death for their beliefs. In fact, the Cheney-Bush Administration tortured hundreds (thousands?) of people, some possibly every bit as bad as nailing them to a cross.

            Besides, why would an omnibenevolent god have himself whacked in order to “save” humanity? Would it not have been much better to simply appear to all people on earth and demonstrate his power without violence.

            For example, instead of “hardening the heart” of the pharaoh so he would refuse Moses’ demands–just so he could “show his signs” by killing 10s of thousands of innocent Egyptians (many of which would have been children)–wouldn’t it have accomplished the same thing had Yahweh simply turned the desert sand to sugar for a few minutes or have the sun wink out for an hour? There were far more benevolent ways to accomplish his wishes that by blood and killing.

            See my last reply to Bret, about 14 minutes ago.

          • Desertcatn

            Whatever, go read some more Micheal Moore.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Recoiling from cognitive dissonance?

          • Desertcatn

            Sure, whatever you say!

          • Desertcatn

            Yes, you nailed it.

        • bret

          Well the way I see it….justice is to do unto others as I would have them do unto me, if the roles were reversed. And then apply that on a societal scale by some reasonable man standard.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Please excuse the lengthy post, but explanations are necessary.

            First, however, thank you bret. That was a good answer. It appears to me, however, that your second sentence is rather redundant to the first. Your first sentence actually states how one should apply justice in society. After all, “others” is inclusive. It is society.

            Basically, then, it seems that Justice in society means fairness. I like John Rawls approach to understanding the nature of social justice—a mental exercise he called the “Veil of Ignorance.” It goes something like this:

            [I imagine myself to be] in a room with a group of other people, and all of us wanted to create a social contract (form a society/nation).

            Suppose, too, that this special room exerted a Veil of Ignorance under which no one knew anything unique about themselves that might separate one from another in social ranking, real or imagined.

            Our minds have been expunged of specific, personal knowledge such as ethnicity, social station, income, general interests, financial worth, education level, political opinions, social opinions—anything that may influence us in any way in relation to others.

            What sort of fundamental, founding principles would I—and each of the others—most likely agree to codify as the basic and permanent principles for a society that would be fair to me, personally?

            Because I know that I would not want to be disadvantaged relative to others in this society, certainly I would choose to have all the basic advantages, rights and liberties (including political) as all others.

            Knowing as well that because not everyone has the same physical and mental abilities, inequalities will inevitably arise. And, since I do not know my abilities relative the others, I would want these inequalities to be arranged such that they are to the advantage of all citizens, (i.e., no one gains at the expense of others—and no one can be blocked from any position to which he might be qualified).

            While I agree with Rawls on these basic principles, and I like his argument from self interest (what’s best for me in a new society), but once understanding the nature of justice, i.e., fairness, there would have to be at least one more condition for it to work that cannot be added structurally, and that is empathy.

            For social justice to prevail, empathy must be an attribute of each person, and it can only be realized within each person primarily from concepts derived early in life through proper nurturing and education.

            Upon agreeing to the two founding principles, personal integrity and empathy would demand that I remain true to the founding principles even if I find that I possess greater abilities than others that will lead to financial success (however “financial success” is defined).

            After all, I could have been born with fewer abilities or suffered from poor nurturing and other disadvantages. Necessarily, then, I would vow to use those abilities to further the living standards of all.

            Of course, in practice, many humans tend to lack that necessary attribute of universal empathy. By nature, our empathy normally extends no further than our immediate family, and diminishes proportionally to genetic distance. It is something that might take us another millennium to rectify.

            Therefore, I think it is incumbent upon all of us who can understand the principles of justice, to spread this model to as many others as possible. Perhaps someday it might become a reality.

          • bret

            Are you a Christian?

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            That’s a good question.

            I was raised to be a de facto fundamentalist Christian, but because of three significant instances in my life, I evolved from that theology.

            In fact, the last incident empelled me to enroll in college to study philosophy, world religions and paleoanthropology. That gave me the objective information and the tools I needed to search for the most probable answers to my questions of origins, existence, theology, and especially, justice.

            My major direction change came when I had a debate with three Mormons who were trying to convert me. After about two hours of friendly debate, I asked them “How do you know that you are right?” All three said that they knew in their hearts they were right.

            I replied that, “yes, I’m sure you do, but so do the Catholics, the Muslims, the Hindu, and every adherent to any religion on Earth. They all know in their hearts that they are right.”

            It wasn’t until the next morning that I awoke to realize that my final argument applied to me as well. I had no more right to believe that the religious “truths” I was taught to believe were, in fact, true. Nor did anyone else of any theology. The logic was irrefutable.

            Virtually all of us believe as we do because it was what we were taught from tothood to believe. That was the day I placed my learned beliefs in abeyance and decided to seek an objective education.

            Having had that education (and still continuing), I find that that my logical argument is still irrefutable.

            My journey from religion, then, gave me the ability to view all people as fundamentally the same and that the only way to achieve peace is not by doctrinal exclusivity, but by benevolent reciprocity (the Golden Rule).

            Most religions incorporate that rule among their tenets, but then they built solid walls of exclusive dogma that crush the greatest one beneath and thereby block the path to peace and brotherhood. Thus, I prefer reason and inclusiveness to exclusive, dogmatic faith.

          • bret

            I asked you if you were a Christian. Your reply was, “That is a good question.” I carefully read the rest of your long post. I have heard this story many times before. One is raised in a given religious faith and ultimately sees it’s flaws, questions it and ultimately matures beyond it’s limits. Often engaging in years of significant or intense study. Thus embracing a fairer, more logical and inclusive ideology. You have seemingly chosen the Humanist faith over the Christian faith. Obviously your fundamental Christian upbringing was seriously flawed. Did you never consider this possibility? Consider my testimony. I was not raised in any religious faith. Indeed my entire Christian theology could have been summed up as little more than the modern beliefs and customs that surround our secular Christmas. But 29 years ago at the age of 26 I had a profound life-changing supernatural experience and became a born-again Christian.

            As I knew absolutely nothing I had much to learn indeed. I watched ever evangelist there was and listened to Christian radio all the day. I also had the Bible on cassette which I’d listen to in my car by day and in my bed by night. Needless to say it did not take me long to realize there was something wrong. Why were there so many ministers saying different things about the same thing? Why does the Bible contain so many contradictions? Why are there 40,000 denominations of Christianity in the world? Why were so many here in the West rejecting the faith while so many in the East were embracing it? Is it coincidence that as Christianity has waned the quality of American culture has descended exponentially? Well it took me seven years to the age of 33 to even begin to get a handle on any of these questions. And now at 55 I am still engaged in the perfection of the knowledge I have obtained to date.

            But within the last year I feel I have reached the point where I believe I possess a genuinely good insight as to the multitude of complex issues that surround the answers to those questions that had so perplexed me in my youth. And I must assume the reason I did not abandon my faith under such difficult and questioning circumstances, as so many others have done, was due to the nature of that supernatural experience I had at age 26 as well as others along the way. For when one becomes a “true” Christian by a genuine and sincere belief or faith in the divine nature and saving grace that is contained in Christ and Christ alone, at that precise instant in time one receives the Holy Spirit. And once bestowed to an individual the Spirit remains for the duration of that person’s life. Now it is possible that one might not initially be aware of the Spirit’s presence but sooner or later he will manifest himself to the individual.

            Also one may indeed forget as to drift from God for a time. This drifting may last for years or perhaps even decades but ultimately the Spirit will bring that individual back into acknowledgement and communion. If at some point in your fundamentalist youth you genuinely and sincerely believed in Christ’s sin atoning BLOOD you possess the Holy Spirit who has apparently laid dormant all these many years as you have been educating yourself and searching. If on the other hand you never did genuinely put your trust in Jesus before you began to question, doubt and search, you possess not the Spirit and thus are not a Christian. Now you should be able to answer your own question. I will try to respond to the rest of your lengthy post in the near future. I have decided to follow you at least for a time. I see you are arguing with what I can only conclude are “Babes in Christ” or immature Christians of which there are many. That is seldom a fruitful endeavor. Good luck.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            First, I truly appreciate your civility in this debate. It is something of a rarity in this area of thought.

            You have seemingly chosen the Humanist faith over the Christian faith.

            We have here what is called a categorical error and a false equivalence. Humanism is a philosophy born of reason, thus, it is not a “faith” in the same sense a religion is a faith, because religion is simply a matter of believing in (most often) ancient stories/myths. I add the word, “myth,” because some of the stories in the Bible can and have been debunked by objective science (objective meaning no conclusion was made before the research and no goal was set).

            Obviously your fundamental Christian upbringing was seriously flawed.

            Actually, it was Christianity that I found to be very flawed (as you seemed to as well in your youth)–not in small measure because of contradictions, “misinterpretations” and a complete lack of extant, independent verification (evidence). Even the short mention of Jesus by Josephus has been deemed by scholars to be a later, unauthorized edit because it does not follow the flow of the narrative.

            The Book of Joshua cannot be confirmed as true not only because the destruction of Jericho does not fit the timeline and no evidence of an Israelite invasion, but there is no confirming evidence that the Jews were ever held captive in Egypt or that the “plagues” happened in sequence and/or in sync with the timeline.

            Too, the complete illogic of an omnibenevolent god “hardening the heart of the Pharaoh” in order that he might show his signs (plagues that killed thousands of innocent men, women and children), is one of the greatest contradictions of the Bible as well as an act that would indicate complete indifference to suffering and a love of malevolence.

            And, the Tower of Babel story flies in the very face of anthropological science as do the “creation” stories.

            The Biblical “flood” contains a number of logical flaws and impossibilities, as well as having no evidence of such a world wide event. The Egyptian civilization was doing quite well during that time, for example, and were such a thing to have happened, there would be geological evidence found and dated to the same period all over the earth.

            But 29 years ago at the age of 26 I had a profound life-changing supernatural experience and became a born-again Christian.

            Do you mind elaborating on that subjective experience?

            Is it coincidence that as Christianity has waned the quality of American culture has descended exponentially?

            First, I think the argument needs a bit of clarification. What is “American” culture? I’ve always heard the term “melting pot.” That would, of course, be a “melting pot” from many cultures.

            Secondly, you seem to be saying that our standard of living is diminishing because of a moving away from Christianity. If you are talking of the decline in Christianity and family cohesion, that is a direct result of modernity. There are far more diversions and the onset of the “information age” has had the effect of enlightening millions through debate and personal, objective research.

            For when one becomes a “true” Christian by a genuine and sincere belief or faith in the divine nature and saving grace that is contained in Christ and Christ alone, at that precise instant in time one receives the Holy Spirit.

            The old argument here, of course, is that if I believed deeply and sincerely that there were unicorns the woods behind my house, I would see “confirming” evidence of their existence when walking through the woods.

          • bret

            As I said from the beginning I have encounter your type many times before on the internet. Out of curiosity let me ask you this. If you believe Christianity to be yet another false man-made religion what brings you to this website?

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            That is a good question as well, bret.

            I like to put it this way: I am a graduate of John Stuart Mill’s School of Free Speech, Intellectual Honesty, and Curiosity. I believe that debate is one of the best ways to learn and I do not believe that anyone should be silenced.

            In debate, the intellectually honest thing to do is, first, to understand that one is not necessarily debating to win, but to learn and/or teach. Secondly, to be completely honest, one should know as much as he can about the subjects he is debating for an against.

            One is far more likely to make correct decisions when he has more knowledge than having less. Therefore, in order to best test one’s beliefs/positions on any particular proposition, one should go to those who are likely to be most opposed.

            I am not opposed to belief in a creator, but I am when that belief is imposed on others via self-righteous politics and/or social enmity. I am, then, generally opposed to injustice and ignorance (non-pejorative). As well, I enjoy theological debate in general because it has opened my eyes and sent me on a journey of wonderful, personal discoveries.

            As for free speech, no one should be silenced. If a person is allowed to express his opinions freely, then the social pool of ideas is enhanced even if those opinions are objectionable or dangerous.

            If the opinions are of positive benefit, then the community is a beneficiary. If objectionable or dangerous, then society knows of whom to beware. A silent adversary is the most dangerous.

          • bret

            I understand exactly what you’re saying but the tools of your trade will not travel far concerning Christianity. For salvation is by faith. Even when watching the best atheist and theological minds on the planet debate, nobody ever has any impact on the other’s beliefs. It is just a form of mental exercise for entertainment purposes for the benefit of the audience and the debater’s personal egos. I have grown weary of all debates. I am 56 years old and been at this for 29 years. I know you will not find God your way and you will never significantly influence any true believer. But you may find mildly interesting conversation with older moderates looking for mental stimulation. I will see if I can put you in touch with someone. But you need to trust someone otherwise God will have to deal with you personally. There is no other way. Person’s such as yourself who become too educated and thoughtful before they come to the knowledge of the Lord are at a most severe disadvantage indeed.

            God has chosen faith. I suppose to level the playing field. Any idiot can have faith. And indeed those of lessor intellects are the ones who are more apt to trust and believe as to have faith. Whereas the intellectual types (you) are most unlikely. And indeed the scriptures even tell us this. Or do you believe that smart men of ancient days figured that out quickly and used it for their advantage to deceive the masses? But alas based on today’s reality even that would seem a most likely scenario indeed.
            But what makes you believe that God would be logical or even rational by our standards? If he exists why has he not manifested himself to our world from the beginning? What is he doing? What is he up to? What is his mindset? Why has he allowed all the evil and injustice that has transpired throughout human history? These are the types of questions that cause 99% of intelligent persons to become nonbelievers in this generation.

            And this is a fact, the more educated the world gets the less belief in God the world possesses. And the world has never been more educated than it is today. And as it becomes more so, faith shall diminish even the more still. This is no coincidence. As even the scriptures foretold this thousands of years ago. When it comes to God I have a tiny bit of insight as to whom we are dealing with and you as a nonbeliever possess virtually none. Obviously there is something seriously wrong in our universe. And the only logical conclusion to be drawn is that God does not exist. But I assure you he does, for what that is worth to you, which probably very little, as is always the case. You have stated that their is absolutely no archaeological evidence for virtually every account in the Bible. After some superficial research you appear to be correct. But yet we have dinosaur bones from hundreds of millions of years ago.

            Why has God hidden or destroyed the evidence vindicating the scriptures but left the ancient evidence for prehistoric worlds and evolution in tact? Or has there been some sort of great conspiracy among governments and perhaps even the Church to keep silent any evidence found to date? Have UFOs visited our planet? Did Lee Harvey Oswald act alone to assassinate JFK or was it a massive cover-up? Why is human-nature the way it is? Why does everything eventually die? Why do many humans perceive themselves as spirits trapped in a material world? Why do we question so much yet know so little? And why is it the more we learn the less we seem to know? When was the last time you got down on your knees in sincerity and prayed to God that he might reveal himself to you? I think that is what you need to do. Push aside your intellect and humble yourself in prayer. God favors the meek and humble but hides his face from the intellectual and the arrogant.

            In my opinion you do not really belong on this website. Indeed how do you find the patience for persons of far lessor intellects? This website is made up of mostly “zealots.” Read the missions statement of this website. I call it the “Bible-thumper” website. I believe you could find far more genuinely intelligent conversation on one of the many Catholic websites. If indeed you have a strong stomach to muddle through 1,700 years of man-made false doctrines, layer by layer and learn “Catholicese.” They have their own language you know, like doctors and lawyers. Or perhaps in your declining years you feel more comfortable going back to your fundamentalist roots? Well if that is the case, this is the largest fundamental website there is. You say you are not opposed to belief in a creator but rather the self-righteous injustices and ignorances done in God’s name. Are you sure you are not subconsciously superimposing the inappropriate behavior of those believers onto the divine being himself?

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            For salvation is by faith. Even when watching the best atheist and theological minds on the planet debate, nobody ever has any impact on the other’s beliefs.

            Not surprising. One is coming from objectivity (evidence based), the other subjectivity (no evidence necessary and details can morph to fit the argument).

            If one believes in ANYTHING strongly enough, it will be real to him and no one can tell him differently–even in the face of volumes of evidence to the contrary.

            There are two kinds of truths: objective and subjective.

            For example, a group of people are having a party in honor of a man recently released from alcoholic rehab. The man arrives, but soon falls victim to Delirium tremens (the DTs).

            This recovering alcoholic, in great fear, claims that he sees snakes slithering all around the floor and on the walls. All the celebrants look around, but see no snakes.

            No one will be able to convince the man that there are no snakes. He sees them and he is being truthful. The rest of those present agree among themselves that they saw no snakes. They, too, are being truthful. The man’s truth, then, was subjective. The truth witnessed by the others present was objective.

            Science works objectively. When one scientists makes a discovery or substantiates a hypothesis for the existence of a particular phenomon, she devises ways to test her hypothesis such that, if true, there will be a particular outcome. If the tests prove her prediction to be true, and more testing substantiates that conclusion, then she publishes the hypothesis and the details of her experiments. Other scientists, then, duplicate her tests and devise tests of their own. If, after years of such independent testing her hypotheses continues to be verified, then the hypothesis becomes a valid scientific theory.

            If the hypothesis is found to be false, then the hypothesis is thrown out and a new one is developed that better fits the evidence, and the testing and independent oversight begins again.

            Religious belief altogether the reverse. Where science begins with a hypothesis and works toward a conclusion, religious belief (creation “science” in this example) begins with the conclusion–God did it. At no time and under no circumstances will the conclusion be doubted.

            Creationists then look for evidence in nature that might support their conclusion. When evidence to the contrary is found, the evidence is thrown out and the search continues for something that could be construed to fit the conclusion. Having found no objective evidence for the biblical creation, they turn to attempting to refute particular points of evolution, which, thus far, has failed.

            I know you will not find God your way and you will never significantly influence any true believer.

            Not necessarily. Were there to be irrefutable evidence for its existence, then I would believe it. As for the “true believer,” there is no evidence that would convince him that his belief is wrong, and that is because his belief is subjective.

            Person’s such as yourself who become too educated and thoughtful . . .

            Please don’t consider this a condensation, but simply my analysis of religious fundamentalism:

            I think it is an insult to one’s self to choose to be ignorant–to force out intellectual curiosity. It is a diminishing of the self. It is a refusal to push for enlightenment in fear that one might discover his “safe haven” into which he as cloistered himself to be a mere fantasy. It is a sign of deep insecurity–a fear of venturing beyond the warmth and comfort of belief. It diminishes one’s religion as well, giving it the attribute not of security, but of a security blanket–faux security.

            I think that, if there were a benevolent god, it would approve most those who use the mental facilities it gave a them rather and those who refuse.

            In my opinion you do not really belong on this website. Indeed how do you find the patience for persons of far lessor intellects?

            I beg to differ. Did you not fully read my last response to you?

            I know that I will not change the mind of a zealot. There are, no doubt, others who still possess a molecule of intellectual curiosity and a desire to know the objective truth–those who find it repugnant to stifle objective knowledge who might be reading these comments and use logic to ascertain the better path for themselves. After all, it was an honest approach to debate–a learning/teaching mechanism–that set me on the road to reason, inclusiveness and objectivity.

            Lastly, if you consider Catholicism to be “man-made false doctrines,” how do you know your own denomination isn’t the very same?

  • Ron East

    False Prophets, I think not. These great men of God don’t need me to defend them, but sometimes I just have to say something. Some of you go through life beat up and beat down by the devil because of your lack of understanding of the Bible. These people you criticize actually walk in the knowledge and power of God in their lives and it makes people who don’t have what they have jealous, and what they have is fruit. Not the dead no power religion that most of the church is stuck in because they can’t see the truth for the lies. I walk in prosperity because Jesus bore lack on the cross. I walk in Devine health because Jesus bore sickness on the cross. I walk in victory over sin because Jesus bore my sin on the cross past, present and future and He sent back the Holy Spirit to give me the power to do it. I’ve noticed that you who preach against prosperity are not prosperous. And most of you that preach against Devine healing are sick. These great men of God bare fruit in their ministries as the church is supposed to and you call them false prophets as did the scribes and pharisees of Jesus day, when he too was called a false prophet. You quote scripture out of context and believe you have all the answers. Instead of back biting and spreading rumors about folks I suggest you try praying for them and their understanding of the Bible if you think they are so wrong, but know you are so perfect in your own eyes that you can’t see that you yourself are full of religion. I pray for you that your understanding would become fruitful, because my friends we are in the last of the last days and with your thinking you are already defeated before you get in the battle good. These men are teachers of the word for these last days but your religion has blinded your eyes.

  • poppyw

    Regardless of who was there, I liked the prayers that were uttered. Trump, in my opinion, is very naïve about his own standing as a supposed Christian. Before this event, a reporter asked about his faith at which point he pointed out how often he attended church. I came away from this encounter with the opinion that this poor man thinks church membership and attendance saves you. I think he’s just another church member who truly hasn’t opened up himself and asked 0Christ to take charge of his life. He is still on his way to hell. Hopefully, the scripture discussed with him will not come back void. If this encounter leads him to re-evaluate his relation with Christ it will be worthwhile. I fully believe that if a non-believer read scripture from the pulpit of a church, somebody would be saved. There is saving power in the Word, itself.

  • Danae D.

    I am so sick and tired of hearing these so-called Christians constantly belittling God’s children. Though I may, or may not, agree with what is going on here, I do know that there are several in this group who are genuine children of God. How do I know? I know the voice of God. Man is not perfect, but by the Spirit should we be led, not by our flesh and carnal thinking. This is where we give the devil rein to consume our thoughts and lead our actions as ‘Pharisaical’ “Christians”. Going to God for truth is critical! We as the body are all called to love one another, not to continuously point fingers… It is in fact those who judge God’s own who will be judged by the Almighty. Be very careful who you call a false teacher or prophet! You will have to answer to God for gossip and slander towards His children. Do we understand the consequences to this (see Pro 6:16-19)? God requires unity in the body, and those who stir up trouble will see trouble! It’s a promise! Today is the day to be awake and ready for our Lord’s return!

    • bret

      Please read my post above on the “prosperity gospel.”

  • bret

    Donald Trump is further dividing our already badly divided Church. What ever happens this election will prove one thing beyond any shadow of a doubt. That at least half of Christ’s Church has absolutely positively no spiritual discernment whatsoever. Jesus told us to get HIS gospel out, not Donald Trump’s. And if it turns out Donald Trump does not become president, these Church shepherds who have taken him under their politically-minded wings of their own volition, which will prove they possess less discernment than half the sheep, that already hate most of them to begin with, I say throw the bums out!

    • Desertcatn

      Well, good thing you aren’t God and you don’t speak for Him. If Donald Trump has been anointed by God to lead our nation, nothing will stand in his way!

      • bret

        What you say is very true but what makes anyone think Donald is anointed? Just because you like someone doesn’t mean they are anointed. I don’t know for sure if it’s my spirit or the Holy Spirit but I see Donald as a most unworthy candidate and a disaster waiting to happen. I strongly “feel” he will not be elected. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see. If I am wrong I need to keep my mouth shut in the future. But If I am right I want all those “false prophets” (Jeremiah Johnson) and “false leaders” (Kenneth Copeland) out on their behinds and I get their jobs and their multi-million dollar salaries. Does that sound fair to you? Either way I sincerely hope the best person wins.

        • Desertcatn

          None of us know one way or another, that is my point!

        • Desertcatn

          Bret, in the Bible, God picked men to use that would be shunned in most churches. These men had in common, great heart and passion, God chose to use them over others, who probably had ‘cleaner’ hearts. Why do you think God chose them? In that context, Donald Trump makes perfect sense.

  • Linda Arnett

    I contacted Dr. Jeremiah on this matter and shared the video with him. Someone from his group told me that he was invited and he went to see what DT had to say. They said that Dr. Jeremiah does not support DT. However, when I read this article, I find that not to be true. The video was not very clear to me, but this article is. It is sad that Dr. Jeremiah would fall for this political ploy. That is all it was and why it was recorded. DT heard that he was loosing Evangelicals and he did this to try to deceive us. It didn’t work. It only shows us what a hypocrite he really is. He will do what ever it takes to get votes. He is no more honest than any of the politicians that people are so angry with.
    If we are going to have any chance to save this nation, we need a godly man. I believe that Dr. Carson is that man. He has lived out his faith for many years. He will be a servant leader and not boss. He wants to bring our government back to of for and by the people as our founding fathers intended. Watch the video of his speech at the 2013 National Prayer breakfast. The speech that made people realize that he is the man we need to help us get this nation off of it’s death bed. WinBenWin

  • bret

    There is no such thing as a “prosperity gospel.” Prosperity was already built into Christ’s original and complete gospel from the very beginning 2,000 years ago. Give and it shall be given. Ask and you shall receive. Sow generously and reap generously. It’s just that simple! When Christ shed his Blood and died upon the Cross the New Testament Covenant was established. A covenant is a legally binding contract. In this case between God and humankind. This Blood Covenant is an eternal covenant. No human being that ever lived or ever shall live has the authority to add or subtract one red cent from this Eternal Blood Covenant. And within this covenant there is no fine print, previously hidden or new revelation enhancements. And there is no respect of persons with God. Those who unknowing teach otherwise are not fit for leadership roles within the Body of Christ. Those who knowingly and deliberately teach otherwise are playing with FIRE!

    • disqus_23FzLxRDKW

      There is no such thing as a “prosperity gospel.” Prosperity was already built into Christ’s original gospel from the very beginning 2,000 years ago. Give and it shall be given. Ask and you shall receive. Sow generously and reap generously. It’s just that simple! When Christ shed his Blood and died upon the Cross the New Testament Covenant was established. A covenant is a legally binding contract. In this case between God and humankind. This Blood Covenant is also an eternal covenant. No human being that ever lived or ever shall live has the authority to add or subtract one red cent from this Eternal Blood Covenant. And within this covenant there is no fine print, previously hidden or new revelation enhancements. And there is no respect of persons with God. Those who unknowingly teach otherwise are not for leadership roles within the Church. Those who both knowingly and deliberately teach otherwise are playing with fire!

  • Donna

    Lawrence, no where in my posting did I say I had faith in Trump nor did I say I trust him.. What I did say was to have faith in prayer and to stand with them in their prayer. We are commanded to pray for our leaders…and I do. If Trump becomes the prez, we must be praying for him and starting now is not too early.
    Yes scripture tells us to put our hope in God.
    I challenge you to find scripture that will give you insight on supporting our leaders…because I already wow where they are and what they say.
    There is only one God, and his name is Jehovah.

  • bret

    First I would like to thank the Christian News Network for presenting this article and the related video and for having the discernment to call it the apostasy which it indeed most certainly is. According to the article Paula White uttered the following words as these other “leaders” laid hands one Donald Trump and prayed in agreement. “Father, we just secure him right now by the blood of Jesus. We thank you that no weapon formed against him will be able to prosper and any tongue that rises against him will be condemned according to the word of God.” I am flabbergasted! I don’t even know where on earth to begin! Paula White and these other Church “leaders” are way out of line! I’ll start with the fact that she is “securing” an unsaved man by the Blood of Christ! Is that even allowed? Is this not a sin against the Blood of Christ? I am not sure but I believe it is. She goes on to say,”We thank you that no weapon formed against him will be able to prosper.” Paula did not ask God to protect Donald but rather she presumed upon God. That is part of the abominable nature of this prosperity gospel mentality. The imagined “name it and claim it” authority many falsely believe they possess. Christians can never presume upon God other than that which is contained in the Blood Covenant of Christ. Even then it is not appropriate to presume upon the God but rather to ask. As Jesus said in his Sermon on the Mount, “Ask and ye shall receive.” Jesus did not say, “Name it claim it and thanks.” Notice she never asked for Donald’s protection, she thanked God for it in advance without ever asking. That is presumptuous indeed, most especially on behalf of an unsaved man. Now for the real kickers. Paula went on to say, “any tongue that rises against him will be condemned according to the word of God.” Well first off, there is no such “condemnation clause” contained anywhere in the Word of God. Paula White and these other spiritually ignorant, deceived or misled “leaders” have not the authority to condemn anyone. Only Christ, to whom all authority in heaven and on earth has been given, possesses such condemnation authority. And Jesus himself told us plainly, “All manner of sin and blaspheme shall be forgiven of men. But the blaspheme against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whosoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven. But whosoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven in this age nor the age to come.” (Matthew 12:31) Apparently the Holy Spirit has now taken a back seat to Donald Trump. Or at least Paula White has placed them on an equal footing. The Unpardonable Sin is now anyone who speaks a word against Donald Trump! If this is not some sort of blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, I can’t imagine what could be. And for Church leaders to openly desire the condemnation of others, even if they had a scriptural basis which they do not, is a grave sin and despicable to say the least.

    • Desertcatn

      Was it an apostasy that God used Saul? Are you saying that God should only use men who are approved by you?

      • bret

        Did you even bother to read my post above? And yes it would have been a great apostasy if God had used an ignorant and unsaved Saul. But ultimately God can use anybody he desires. But again Saul got saved and gained much spiritual knowledge before God used him, unlike Donald. And it sounds like you are saying God should only use men that you approve of. Put both of us aside for a moment. The overwhelming majority of Christians I know who have any significant level of age, maturity and spiritual discernment seem to agree that Donald is definitely not the man for the job. It also seems the young, immature and emotionally selfish “Babes in Christ” love Donald. There is no point in arguing about this. As I have already posted, in thirteen months we will all know which half of the Body of Christ has spiritual discernment.

        • Desertcatn

          Well, let God know that He can’t use Donald Trump.

          • bret

            God can use anybody he desires. But why all of a sudden do so many Christians believe God is directly involved in our political process? Are we not responsible for choosing our own leaders? Do we not have any choices in this life? Are we merely puppets on a string? How can we be responsible or held to account if God is doing all the choosing for us? And if God is so involved in the affairs of humankind how do you know God did not anoint Barack Obama? And how do you know God has chosen Donald Trump? Maybe he has chosen Hillary Clinton. I believe this whole Donald Trump phenomenon has gotten way out of hand. Apparently many Christians have become fed-up with the Washington establishment and are desiring a “savior.” Well we Christians already have one and his name is Jesus.

          • Desertcatn

            I don’t know, you claim to know that God can’t possibly have any use for Donald Trump.

        • Desertcatn

          Then tell God that he can’t use Donald Trump.

    • disqus_23FzLxRDKW

      Apparently these leaders believe they possess the authority to decide an official position on behalf of the entire Body of Christ concerning whom shall be the next president of the United States. Who in the world do these people think they are? Apparently they not only believe they can “name it and claim it” for themselves but also act as an unauthorized proxy to God on behalf of the entire Body of Christ and indeed the nation. Although their intentions may have been honorable in their own eyes the level of implied pride and arrogance this Charismatic elite gathering has shown is shocking to say the least. A while back I read an article on the Charisma News Network about the prophet Jeremiah Johnson. In the article Mr. Johnson claimed God had given him a prophecy concerning Donald Trump. that indeed Donald Trump would become the next president and that God was going to use Mr. Trump to expose the corruption in Washington to the American people. But thus far what Donald Trump has exposed is an astonishing level of partiality, theological ignorance and lack of discernment within the Church. I personally do not recognize Paula White, Kenneth Copeland nor nay of the others in attendance at this meeting as having any authority whatsoever within the Body of Christ. And in my opinion neither should anyone else.

  • pilgrim249

    Typical religious goop from the critical Southern Baptist dufus.

  • Omega Awareness

    *pukes*

  • http://www.trib-ready.net Jeremiah Nahvee

    Question: Why do some people get so vehement, angry and verbally assaultive when one of their leaders is criticized? Why is is taboo to question an action or their doctrine? Those are clear indicators that you worship the person and you love them and their doctrine more than you love God and the truth of His word.

  • marg

    A group of heretical preachers laying hands on a selfish arrogant businessman (who can’t even quote his favorite verse of the Bible) makes my spiritual heart skip several beats. The church that kisses the butt of the culture has nowhere to go but down. Is it any wonder the church has lost it’s effect on the culture? This is shameful.

  • marg

    Heresey is doctrine that has a twist of falseness to it. Name it and claim it doctrine can use some scripture but has that twist of heresy that few pick up right away. It is not just limited to name it and claim it…..many churches who misuse verses for their own benefit also are like that, as well as many cults that also use the Bible…..that is why it is so very important that we compare everything we hear from the pulpit to scripture, and become like the Bereans who listened the word and searched the scriptures (and they only had the old testament at that time!!)!! My husband (who is a pastor) says that to many “doctrines” are like an upside down pyramid, based on one or two verses (badly discerned) and made into an entire doctrine, instead of entire doctrine based on a wide base of scripture to give a solid foundation of truth.

  • sandra-paquette-

    What is the heck is Dr. Jeremiah thinking and Robert Jeffress. These two should know better than anyone going down this road.

  • Zewdie Teruneh

    We Christians has right like any one else.We vote on The Bible. Any thing we do even some Christian leaders criticize.God knows who is good or bad.We are not in position to tell others what to say or what to do.

  • Ruby F Brown

    Don’t trust but one, maybe two preachers in this group. If I needed prayer I would certainly seek out people I thought had a personal relationship with God and knew his ways. I wouldn’t be surprised if this wasn’t a setup to put DTon the same level as Ted Cruz’s affiliation with false preachers and false doctrine as something to hold over his head. (Seven Mountain Dominion).

  • Earl Pearl Haskins

    My issue with the “Sinister Ministers” that come preaching prosperity, is that it’s NOT biblical. These “Name it and claim it” and “Blab it and grab it” groups treat God as though He’s a Santa Claus. “Just claim it in the name of Jesus!” Well, if it’s not God’s will then you can “claim” all you want, it isn’t going to happen (and that’s to your benefit). THAT’s the piece they don’t seem to get in the following scripture: “This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.” – 1 John 5:14. And although God is NOT against prosperity, He seems to prosper those that want what He wants for them, the most.

  • Ruth Bcr

    You’re article has statements as facts, which are lies. Jan Crouch? She was buried at the time this was made.

  • Old Top Kick

    So, they prey for a violent racist thug to be elected president? Interesting version of “Christianity” you have there, people.

  • Trixie

    “The people that Trump has so far identified as his evangelical outreach are mostly prosperity gospel types, which are considered by mainstream evangelicals to be heretics,” he told Politico.

    Funny, the mainstream evangelicals of Jesus’ day consider Him to be a heretic.

  • Timothy

    Good God. This stream is full of self-righteous religious schmucks…!!