‘I Don’t Believe That’: Seventh Day Adventist Ben Carson Says Hell Does Not Exist

Ben Carson Credit Gage Skidmore-compressed
Photo Credit: Gage Skidmore

Despite the numerous Scriptures warnings given by Jesus himself, Seventh Day Adventist and presidential candidate Ben Carson told The Washington Post that he does not believe in hell.

“I don’t believe there is a physical place where people go and are tormented,” he stated. “No. I don’t believe that.”

As previously reported, Seventh Day Adventists believe in the “annihilation of the wicked,” rejecting the doctrine of eternal torment out of their assertion that the Bible doesn’t teach about a permanent place called Hell, but rather the snuffing out of the soul.

“How repugnant to every emotion of love and mercy, and even to our sense of justice, is the doctrine that the wicked dead are tormented with fire and brimstone in an eternally burning hell; that for the sins of a brief earthly life they are to suffer torture as long as God shall live,” wrote founder Ellen White in “The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan.”

“The theory of eternal torment is one of the false doctrines that constitute the wine of the abomination of Babylon, of which she makes all nations drink … They received it from Rome,” she asserted.

The early Church “did not [believe the Scriptures meant] eternal punishing, but rather punishment in the world to come that ends in cessation of being,” also asserted Adventist author LeRoy Edwin Froom in as outlined in “The Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers.”

Carson said that while he doesn’t believe Hell is a physical place, he does believe that Heaven is literal. However, he suggested that souls sleep until the Second Coming of Christ.

  • Connect with Christian News

“The Bible says when you die, you know, there is no soul that kind of floats away. But essentially, when you die, the next thing you know is the coming of Christ because you don’t know anything when you’re dead,” he told the Washington Post. “If you’re dead for a second or a thousand years, it’s the same. But when he comes, according to the book of First Corinthians, that the sound of the archangel will rise and that’s when things happen.”

In Matthew 25:41, in speaking of the separation between the sheep and the goats, Jesus said, “Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.'”

“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal,” He outlined.

Jesus also spoke of the punishment of Hell in the parable of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus.

“And in Hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom,” Jesus explained in Luke 16:23. “And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame.”

“[I]t is better for thee to enter into the Kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into Hell fire, where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched,” He also warned in Mark 9:47-48.


A special message from the publisher...

Dear Reader, our hearts are deeply grieved by the ongoing devastation in Iraq, and through this we have been compelled to take a stand at the gates of hell against the enemy who came to kill and destroy. Bibles for Iraq is a project to put Arabic and Kurdish audio Bibles into the hands of Iraqi and Syrian refugees—many of whom are illiterate and who have never heard the gospel.Will you stand with us and make a donation today to this important effort? Please click here to send a Bible to a refugee >>

Print Friendly
  • Bill

    And this is all you can come up with to discredit him…..No one is perfect. He is a far better choice than clinton.

    • Josey

      A lot of people would be better than Hillary but why is it that is all that is left to choose from, choose between the lesser of two evils, sickening!

      • Mark Hodge

        They are all evil.. NWO members!

    • Oboehner

      The lesser of two evils is still evil.

      • Norma Harris-Check

        Carson is the furthest from evil! HELLary has proven who she is by her actions over the years, and her lies, just as odumbo has!!

        • Mark Hodge

          They all lie, as they all belong to the same club 😉

          • afchief

            Are you voting?

        • Oboehner

          Having to compare Carson to Hillary to make him look good doesn’t cut it, any way you slice it, it is still just the lesser of two evils.

      • Little o me

        So if people do not agree totally with you on the interpretation of the Bible you call them evil ??? I find that to be overly judgmental and therefore EVIL !!! It is not like he is not a believer in Christ nor does it mean that he does not strive to be Christ Like … which is the definition of Christian. No two people will see everything eye to eye … AND you most definitely are no more perfect than anyone else !!! I suggest you pray.

        • Oboehner

          The Hell thing is kind of a biggie, but then I suppose the passage about “beware of angels of light” doesn’t apply if there is an “R” by their name.

    • Mark Hodge

      Choice? Do you honestly believe that we people pick presidents? I’d suggest you deeply research matters 😉

      Hint: Ordinary folk don’t become president, you have to belong to the club first.

  • stanjensen

    It is not that he does not believe in Hell, he believes the popular version is not the biblical version. The wages of sin is death, the gift of God is eternal life. NOT the wages of sin is everlasting life in fire. For God so loved the world ….. shall not PERISH but have eternal life. etc etc etc. Everlasting punishment is not the same as everlasting punishing..

    • stanjensen

      The south that sinneth, it shall die.

      • The Last Trump

        What’s your beef with the south partner?
        (Kidding! 🙂

        • stanjensen

          LOL I once typed auto correct is my enemy, it came out as auto correct is my enema….
          🙂

          • jennylynn

            Ha ha ha…..

      • jennylynn

        You mean the soul

  • stanjensen

    This is really poor unresearched journalism.. Show me where the Adventist believe “snuffing out of the soul”

  • storie

    Hmmm…..very interesting.

  • Jade

    Wow, I do not like Ben Carson as a choice for president, but he is exactly right on the issue of what the scriptures say about death (nothing happens until the 2nd coming). It makes me laugh how most Christians don’t like that fact, so they disregard the scriptures and believe that you go to heaven as soon as you die. Almost all Christian are “a la carte”; picking and choosing what scriptures they like.

    • Brian Westad

      Interesting thought. Personally, I think the duality (body
      and Spirit) of the human being allows for both to be true. Physical objects
      such as bodies are contained within the laws of physics and time. Whereas,
      immaterial objects such as spirits conform to a different set of laws and are
      not necessarily bound by time. I think it’s reasonable to suggest that after
      our bodies die within the temporal, then our spirits leave the temporal into
      the eternal. If Christ’s return is subject to a timeline event, then it would
      follow that our spirits, being outside of time, could be judged in the eternal
      whereas the return of Christ has already taken place. So from the perspective
      of our spirit, we go from death of the body into heaven instantaneously.

    • brucefl56

      Well I am not sure, but I know Christ said to the thief on the cross “today you shall be with me in Paradise” If their was no eternal hell, than what was the rich man looking at Lazarus in Abraham’s bosom for. There is a lot we do not know or understand, all we need to be is “ready”

      • Angel Jabbins

        And being ready means being in forgiven in Christ. No one can stand before a Holy God without having been cleansed of their sins. That cleansing does not come from any good that we do in this life, because, no matter how hard we try, we can never erase our sin debt. We have all sinned and come short of the glory of God. We all deserve hell because we have all sinned and our sins are not small things in God’s eyes. They are so serious it took the death of His Son to wash them away…for those who come to Him and trust in Him for salvation. Jesus suffered so we would not have to.

        Isaiah 53:5
        But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.

        Romans 5:6
        You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

        Romans 5:8
        But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

        Romans 5:18
        Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

        2 Corinthians 5:21
        God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

        If there is no hell, why did Jesus have to die? He did die and He arose from the grave showing He was victorious over sin and death. He was the Lamb of God…the only true lamb, unlike all the other lambs that were sacrificed before Him…He was the spotless Lamb of God who took away our sins…. and making us fit to enter heaven and live with a Holy God.

      • Suu

        But Christ himself didn’t rise on that day. That is a misinterpreted verse

      • Guest

        There is is no comma, Jesus was making an emphasis of time ‘on this day…’ is about when He is telling him, not when it will happen.

    • Sandy Manela

      the scripture says that to absent from the body is to be present with the Lord…I take that pretty literal… to say we pick and choose is not accurate, however, those of you who twist the scripture and truth…are the ones who are picking and choosing to fit your beliefs.

    • Mark Hodge

      The problem stems from pagan doctrines being blended into Christianity early on 🙁

      • jennylynn

        I guess you will find out on your death day.

        • Mark Hodge

          You are deluded by pulpit lies 🙁

        • Guest

          As will you too and since we are commanded to love, not fret about the management of heaven both opinions on this subject are pretty much irrelevant.

          I trust God when He tells me to not worry about the dead for they know nothing and that He will deal with the rest. I am saved by Christ and commanded to love here and now, that’s my job.

          • jennylynn

            Great! This article was about the doctrine of hell which Is a real place Jesus warned about to keep people out of. Lastly I would encourage you to compare scripture with scripture and look at the Hebrew/Greek to understand verses out of context.

            Here is the verse:
            For the living know they will die, but the dead so not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward for their memory is forgotten. ( this says their memory is forgotten, not he has no memory)

            Psalm 88:12
            Are your wonders known in the place of darkness, or your righteous deeds in the land of oblivion.

            Isaiah 26:14
            They are now dead, they live more; their spirits do not rise. You punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them. ( their memory will be forgotten, not they will forget their memory, where the worm never dies.)

            Revelation 20:15
            And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

          • Guest

            Again, each and every one of these is completely in context without people being tormented for eternity. You are rationalizing trying to justify the Roman Corruption of the idea of everyone having an immortal soul separate from their body. The promise of Christ was eternal life.

            As Psalms 37:20 makes clear,

            For the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of Jehovah shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume, like smoke shall they consume away.

            I have compared ‘scripture to scripture’, there is no indication that men are tormented forever, and much to indicate that fate is reserved for angels.

            But again, it is irrelevant because an opinion either way has nothing to do with what God has commanded us to do. Its like having an argument about whether the roads of heaven are paved with gold or platinum.

          • jennylynn

            The Bible is very clear that hell is eternal!

            Cast into a tormenting fire
            Rev. 14:9-11, “And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” See also, Rev. 21:8.

            Eternal Fire
            Matt. 25:41, “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.”

            Eternal Punishment
            Matt. 25:46, “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

            The word “eternal” in both places is “aionios” which means 1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be, 2) without beginning, 3) without end, never to cease, everlasting. The word “punishment” is the word “kolasis” and it means “to punish, with the implication of resulting severe suffering–‘to punish, punishment.'”5

            Eternal Fire
            Jude 7, “Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.”

            FOREVER AND EVER
            “And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

            Lake of Fire
            Rev. 20:15, “And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

          • Guest

            Rev 14:9-11 Tormenting fire, no help for your case there.

            Matt 25:41 again says nothing about effect of eternal fire on immortals vs humans.

            Matt 25:46 since death is a punishment and it is contrasted with life, nothing for you here either.

            Jude 7 illustrates that ‘eternal fire’ is a type of fire, not that it lasts forever – we would see if there was pillars of fire in the middle east.

            And the last 2 revelations references only mention the devil being punished for an ‘age of ages’, not the beast or the false prophet .

            And since we know of all the ones that say the wicked will be destroyed body and soul, ‘burned up as smoke’ ‘death is the wage of sin’ in many different ways I am content with accepting what the bible says, that death is the punishment for sin, and life the reward for accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior.

            And again, it makes no difference − it has nothing to do with what God has commanded us to do and has no bearing on a person’s salvation. We’ll all know soon enough the answer to that and many other questions.

    • jennylynn

      Actually he is quite wrong and doesn’t read the scriptures. They have the same beliefs as the JW’s another blasphemous cult. He is calling Jesus a liar and is in danger of hell fire.

      • gizmo23

        We would all be better off if we focused on how we treated and cared for each other instead of fighting over Hell, rapture, Noah, Eden, and a million other things that drive us apart

        • jennylynn

          Who said we don’t do that too? But the loving thing is to snatch people from the fire, and save a person from hell. To not care is no callously say NOTHING!

          • gizmo23

            I read post here and I’d say 50% are focused on hurting someone

      • Virginia Thomson

        Adventists actually do believe in hell, to suggest we believe the same as JWs is not true.

        • jennylynn

          Charles Russle was a seventh Day Adventist before Jw, he was also a Freemason. The beliefs are super similar.

  • Reason2012

    Jesus made it quite plain there is such a place – He spent more time warning about avoiding_hell than He spoke about heaven.

    “[Jesus said] And it happened that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom. The rich one also died and was buried. And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things. But now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, there is a great chasm fixed between you and us; so that they desiring to pass from here to you cannot, nor can they pass over to us from there. And he said, I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, so that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the Prophets, let them hear them. And he said, No, father Abraham, but if one should go to them from the dead, they would repent. And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead.”
    Luke 16:22-31

    “[Jesus said] And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you of whom you shall fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yea, I say to you, fear Him.”
    Luke 12:4-5

    Who are we going to listen to? A denomination with its own doctrines, or what God/Jesus Christ said?

    • Mark Hodge

      Jesus was merely recounting a pagan Greek story. Video I posted explains all 🙂

      • Reason2012

        Except your assumption hinges on Jesus not being God, Him instead just being another man and as a mere human being was just ignorantly repeating false things. The fact that to be saved is to believe the truth that Jesus is God debunks any credence to pretending Jesus is not God, or therefore that “Jesus was merely recounting stories”. Please think again: when we face God it will be too late to gain forgiveness, and “how was I supposed to know” won’t save us from the judgment from a lifetime of sinning countless times daily.

        “And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment, so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many. And to those who look for Him He shall appear the second time without sin to salvation.”
        Hebrews 9:27-28

        • jennylynn

          Amen!

          • Mark Hodge

            Go to HELL!

          • Little o me

            You must have endured much pain in your life … I will pray for you. God is calling your name … hear him and he will bless you with love and peace.

          • Mark Hodge

            Yes, but not the point. Seems that site doesn’t allow links in comments? As such both of my comments w/links were deleted. Therefore so shall I dissapear from here, nevermore to return 🙁

        • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

          Really? You say we go straight to Abraham’s bosom or hell…then are judged…just for God to say “well done thy good and faithful servant. Enter thou into the joy of thy Lord”…when he has been “absent from the body, present with the Lord the whole time”? Ding. Another atheist.

      • jennylynn

        The convenient lie the devil wants you to believe!

        • Mark Hodge

          Fuck you demon!

        • wandakate

          Of course, he was the father of all lies. He (satan) came to kill, steal and destroy. There are many lies and they began with the mother church and have now spread unto all of the other sister churches. Paganism and Heathenism at its finest.
          All now is merely tradition (like all of our worldly holidays).

    • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

      So those in heaven can look over a see their dead loves ones burning forever and ever as long as God shall live? That’s heaven? No one why this teaching has generated so many atheists.

      • Reason2012

        You’re the only one I hear making this claim. God certainly did not.

        “And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away.”
        Revelation 21:4

        Ask yourself why you spend hours a day spewing out hatred for that which you claim to not believe – your conscience ,knows the truth, you’re just spending much effort to ease it. When I used to not believe, I never spent a moment of time on the subject. You have far more faith than I did.

        • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

          Hatred? Lol. Tell that tell to the entire Evangelical world that believes Luke 16 is literal and not a parable. Do you believe that when men die they ascend to Abraham’s bosom or descend into the flames of hell? Judging by your post most certainly you do (thus negating the point of a future judgement). My conscience knows the truth…its guided by the One who teaches men ALL TRUTH…the same One who said the dead no NOTHING.

          So lets take what you believe and match it to what I posted in my previous comment…

          @Reason2012 :

          “[Jesus said] And it happened that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom. The rich one also died and was buried. And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame. ”

          And I said… So those in heaven can look over a see their dead loves ones burning forever and ever as long as God shall live? Hatred? Simple question…but to you its hatred.

          Continuing with the verses posted by @Reason2012:disqus

          “But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things. But now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, there is a great chasm fixed between you and us; so that they desiring to pass from here to you cannot, nor can they pass over to us from there. And he said, I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, so that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the Prophets, let them hear them. And he said, No, father Abraham, but if one should go to them from the dead, they would repent. And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead.” Luke 16:22-31

          And I said…That’s heaven? No wonder why this teaching has generated so many atheists.

          The rich man saw who while in torments of hell? He saw Father Abraham. Clearly. Thus those are who are in heaven can see those that are burning and in torments…waiting to be refreshed by a drop of water…which may offer a millisecond of relief. This is what YOU believe.

          Do I believe this? Nope. The soul that sinneth it shall die, consumed to ashes…not spend an eternity in unquenchable everlasting hellfire. So how you get that I am “spewing hatred” out of what I said earlier is beyond me. Hatred is telling a 19 year old that if he was to die today in sin, he would spend billions of years burning in an eternal flame. Sounds alot like purgatory to me…are you Catholic? I mean the RCC is known to declare anything that goes against Roman doctrine to be hate speech or propaganda. But then again, those that hate the truth will declare anything that rebukes their doctrine to be hate speech.

          • Reason2012

            // l. Tell that tell to the entire Evangelical world that believes Luke 16 is literal and not a parable. //

            Which is why we should be driven to preach to the lost. But we don’t know everything about how things work.

            Who’s to say we’ll remember everything here?

            Or perhaps we existed before we existed here and our true brothers and sisters were all saved?

            We don’t know everything.

            You assume you know everything then make judgments on completely lacking (and some false) information.

            // Do you believe that when men die they ascend to Abraham’s bosom or descend into the flames of hell? Judging by your post most certainly you do (thus negating the point of a future judgement). //

            Jesus claimed it, so yes, I believe it. Why do you think Jesus is a liar?

            // My conscience knows the truth…its guided by the One who teaches men ALL TRUTH…the same One who said the dead no NOTHING. //

            It’s God that knows the truth, not us. If what we think we know contradicts what GOd has made clear, who’s right? God is, not our “feelings” on the matter. Mankind’s attempt to “know” what is right is folly.

            “There is a way which seems right to a man, but the end of it is the ways of death.”
            Proverbs 14:12

            // And I said… So those in heaven can look over a see their dead loves ones burning forever and ever as long as God shall live? //

            Consider: Did God say Lazarus could see the rich man?

            No.

            It says the rich man can see Lazarus.

            You’re assuming Lazarus can see the rich man, which is a false assumption.

            To use this false assumption to reach a conclusion makes that conclusion false, in this case that “We will also ‘see our loved ones'”

            // Hatred? Simple question…but to you its hatred. //

            No, it’s hatred to make false claims about what God has made clear, to try to deceive othes into believing what has been patently shown to be false claims, and to try to pretend believeing what Jesus says is us creating atheists that will end up in hell, in effect blaming us for people going to hell.

            // And I said…That’s heaven? No wonder why this teaching has generated so many atheists. //

            The person in_hell is the one tormented with knowledge his loved ones will end up there.

            See above to see again the assumptions you make instead about born again believers in God who will see the same things.

            And teaching does not generate atheists – men’s wickedness and foolishness generates atheists.

            “To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, There is no God! They acted corruptly; they have done abominable works, there is none who does good.”
            Psalms 14:1

            // The rich man saw who while in torments of hell? He saw Father Abraham. Clearly. Thus those are who are in heaven can see those that are burning and in torments…//

            And there is where you’ve been deceived. It doesn’t say lazarus is even aware of the rich man, or even the rich man being able to see him.

            // waiting to be refreshed by a drop of water…which may offer a millisecond of relief. This is what YOU believe. //

            No, what I believe is that people will end up in hell, they will see how others are getting what they themselves spit upon in utter mockery of God: forgiveness. I do NOT believe Lazarus could see any of it because God never says that’s the case. Why is it you teach this assumption as fact when the Bible never says any such thing, but the Bible instead says all our tears will be wiped away?

            // Do I believe this? Nope. The soul that sinneth it shall die, consumed to ashes…not spend an eternity in unquenchable everlasting hellfire. //

            God calls hell the “second death” and God has made clear in many verses hell is a very real place, and that it was even enlarged for us – why does it need to be enlarged if you’re only going there to be “consumed to ashes”?

            “So hell has enlarged itself, and opened its mouth without measure; and their glory, and their multitude, and their pride, and he who rejoices in her, shall go down into it.”
            Isaiah 5:14

            The Bible teachers there are various degrees of punishment when we’re no longer here. Gooogle it to see verses all over the Bible that point to this. You are instead teaching that’s a lie as well since everyone gets the same punishment: consumed to ashes.

            Please keep in mind we cannot know EVERYTHING – only that which God has made clear so far.

            However, I will say this (and I could be wrong – it’s MY impression, not a “this is definiately what the Bible says”): I believe hell exists, that people will be sent there, but that perhaps they are in there for a certain amount of time, even multiple “life sentences” before they are finally destroyed. This agrees with the FACTUAL teachings of the Bible as

            – hell being a literal place that many will end up in
            – various degrees of punishment
            – enlarged for the wicked
            – that it seems to me that perhaps (as you allude to) the soul is at some point destroyed (but we could be wrong).

            // So how you get that I am “spewing hatred” out of what I said earlier is beyond me. Hatred is telling a 19 year old that if he was to die today in sin, he would spend billions of years burning in an eternal flame. Sounds alot like purgatory to me…//

            If a person rejects forgiveness of what God did for us on the cross, it’s their fault for ending up there, is it not?

            If a person rejects forgiveness of God going to the cross for us, when it’s made clear, does that yet again prove how wicked we truly are at heart and deserve it?

            What if we existed before we were born here, and did some sins as fallen angels and are sent here for a possible chance at redemption (or not – as some are “reserved unto the day of judgment”)? Then we find out how foolish we were to judge God for something we were clueless about, or to teach that His Word can’t be trusted because we dont’ want to believe it. To teach things contrary to what God says as fact is hateful – and to tell others they’re causing people to be sent to hell for teaching it is hateful.

            If you wish to present a belief, go for it – but to present it as fact and tell others they’re the cause of people ending up in hell, that’s at the very least somewhat hateful. Maybe that was not your intention.

            // are you Catholic? I mean the RCC is known to declare anything that goes against Roman doctrine to be hate speech or propaganda. //

            No, the catholic denomination teaches many false claims that goes against what God teaches and that denomination does in fact help keep people blind to God’s truth.

            // But then again, those that hate the truth will declare anything that rebukes their doctrine to be hate speech. //

            No, it’s hate to teach that God’s Word is a lie and help deceive people into believing that lie. You claim it’s hate what God says: that there’s a place of torment. Seems you’re the one here telling everyone what they’re pointing out is hate speech.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            And I said… So those in heaven can look over a see their dead loves ones burning forever and ever as long as God shall live?

            Simple question…do you believe when a man dies he proceeds immediately to heaven or hell? Yes or no.

          • Reason2012

            As I said: Did God say Lazarus could see the rich man? No. It says the rich man can see Lazarus.

            You’re assuming Lazarus can see the rich man, which is a false assumption.

            To use this false assumption to reach a conclusion makes that conclusion false, in this case that “We will also ‘see our loved ones'”

            We don’t need to ‘believe” what happens when a person dies – God/Jesus already told us:

            “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
            John 5:28-29

            “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”
            Hebrews 9:27

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            I never asked you if Lazarus could see him…and even still the rich man ASKED for Abraham to send him…Father Abraham…the same Father Abraham that the Jews said…”we have ABRAHAM to our Father”

            Abraham SAW the rich man and the rich man saw him back..

          • Reason2012

            Was the rich man Abraham’s “loved one?”
            No.
            Are there any of the rich man’s loved ones (parents / relatives) in heaven seeing the rich man suffer?
            No.
            Abraham is considered the father of the faithful, John.

            So much again for your claim “those in heaven can look over a see their dead loves ones burning forever and ever as long as God shall live”

            You seem to have a need for it to be true when the Bible says no such thing. It’s not me you have to convince, John, it’s God. Ask yourself how that will go.

          • Reason2012

            // That settles it for me. You serve a tyrant. A very cruel one at that. One that takes men out of heaven and places them back on this sinful planet. //

            To criminals judges are tyrants: criminals want the freedom to rob, steal rape and_kill, but unfortunately judges are cruel tyrants that enforce the known consequences for breaking the law. You’d think the criminals instead would have a change of mind about breaking the law and seek forgiveness, but instead seek to condemn judges and seek to continue breaking the law.

            In the end it’s God you’ll have to convince – convincing others here to share your anti-Christ beliefs won’t make them any more valid when you face God.

            Take care.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            I do not have to convince you of anything. You say when a person dies he proceeds immediately to heaven or hell. When Lazarus died…and left to be PRESENT with the Lord…yet your tyrant “god” placed him back into a mortal body to live on this sin sick planet. Lazarus was in heaven! Right?!

          • jennylynn

            Abraham’s bosom was before the death and RESURECTION of Christ. The lake of fire is after the great whiten throne judgement at the second coming. While people wait, they wait in hades, which is like a hell like jail.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            So where did Adam go? Eve? Noah?

          • Becky

            They’re sleeping in their earthly graves. They will awaken when Christ returns.

          • jennylynn

            Thats their Bodies, their spirits are now with God.

          • Becky

            What scripture(s) states that?

          • jennylynn

            we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
            2 Corinthians 5:8

          • Becky

            This chapter is talking about our sure salvation through faith.

            Verse 6 says, “So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.” Now, notice verse 7, “For we walk by faith, not by sight.”

            The following verses (17-21) clearly explain that God’s saved are here as “ambassadors for Christ”. Can’t be ambassadors if your dead and your spirit is in heaven.

            “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
            Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”

          • jennylynn

            Becky, paul also said to live is Christ and to die is gain. Why? Because Paul knew he would be present with The Lord. I’m not sure what your refuting? While here on earth we are ambassadors for CHRISt, but when we die we are at home with The Lord. Maybe you should do deeper study.
            Blessings

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            “Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.”
            simply meant that Paul wanted to be out of his flesh body of corruption to be in an immortal body with God eternal. Simple as that. And Paul knew that he would receive that body when? “AT HIS COMING”

          • jennylynn

            Paul knew his soul would be with The Lord while his body awaits the resurrection. Jesus said to the thief on the cross ” today you will be with Me in paradise”. His soul went to paradise!

          • Becky

            Christ didn’t even go to paradise that day.

          • jennylynn

            So your calling Jesus a liar. The thief went to paradise in Abraham bosom until the resurection

          • Becky

            Absolutely not. The bible says that Christ ascended 40 days after his resurrection. In John 20:17, after Christ’s resurrection, he told Mary Magdalene not to touch him because he hadn’t ascended to the Father. In verses 26-29, eight days after the resurrection Christ is talking to Thomas. Acts 1:2-3 says that Christ was “…seen of them forty days…” and in verse 9 it describes his ascension.

            So, given the information the bible reveals, it’s not possible that the thief on the cross was with Christ in paradise on that day.

          • jennylynn

            Becky, Christ was talking about His resurrected body, which is clear by the scriptures. He raisesd His body three day later and then appears to His disciple 4o days. But His Spirit went immediately to the Lord until He resurrected. Yes, the thief was with Christ in paradise, because he went up spiritually. The resurrection has not happened for us humans, but Christ now has a resurrected body and He sits at the right hand of the Father. Furthermore, Paul speaks of his out of body experience in 2 Corinthians 12 when he’s taken to the third heaven

            And Jesus crying out with a loud voice, said, FATHER, INTO THY HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT, and He breathed His last ( His last in the Greek #1606 means give up the ghost) Luke 23:46, John 19:30

            I think your trying really hard to deny the spiritual resurrection, which cannot be done. We are body soul and spirit.

          • Becky

            Utter confusion is what you’re teaching, because there is no biblical support for what you just wrote.

            We are body, soul and spirit…meaning breath, wind…that’s what spirit means…ruwach.

          • wandakate

            In the first line you say…The bible says that CHRIST ascended 40 days after the resurrection.
            Actually it should have been “CHRIST appeared”. He appeared on the earth for 40 days prior to His ascension… He didn’t really ascend back to GOD the FATHER until after the 40 days, b/c as you said when He saw Mary He plainly told her, “Do not touch me, for I have NOT yet ascended (gone back) to the FATHER.” The thief DID NOT go with JESUS that very day. No, truth is he went into the grave and knew nothing, he was dead. The living know they will die, but the dead know not anything.
            There were no commas when the original text was written therefore JESUS would have really said, with the comma in the proper place…”I TELL YOU THIS TODAY, YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE.”
            He was telling the thief that He would be with Him, and that is the truth, and he will be, but not until the 1st resurrection of the dead at JESUS appearing (the rapture). That day, when those graves all open, the thief will “rise up” and go to be with the LORD JESUS. Just like JESUS promised him he would be doing.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            Was the thief among those that “came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.” Matthew 27:53

            Immortal, incorruptible BODIES came our of those graves. Or the thief is in heaven as a “disembodied spirit”?

            Should I break it down like this?

            Verily I say unto thee today…on this day…I telling you this right now….this very minute listen to what I am saying….shalt thou be with me in paradise

            Or like this….WITHOUT the comma?

            Luke 23:43, “And Jesus said unto him verily I say unto thee today shalt thou be with me in paradise.”

            Again, did the thief ascend to heaven BEFORE Jesus, the very “first fruits of them that slept” in the graves?

            Just to think, one comma has deceived millions perhaps billions into the belief of immediate life after death!

            I am going to eat Alex.
            I am going to eat, Alex.

            What a world of difference pronunciation makes versus me telling Alex I am going to eat or that I am a cannibal 🙂

            1 Corinthians 15:20, “But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.” Them that slept…except the thief on the cross…

            That thief is in a grave, in the same place the patriarch David is…

            Acts 2:29, “Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both —>>>dead and buried<<>>Elisha saw it<<>>ascended into the heavens<<<—: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,"

            My question to you is…when LAZARUS DIED…where did he go? Remember…"absent from the body, present with the Lord" as a disembodied spirit in paradise right?

          • jennylynn

            Scripture doesn’t say names, but I can assure you this all those bodies that resurrected at that time, died again to be resurrected eternally at the second coming. This event was to display God’s power.

          • wandakate

            The resurrection is at His APPEARING, not the second coming. Two separate events.
            At His appearing He will appear with His multitude of Heavenly Angels and He will not touch the ground. The graves will then open and the ones in them will “rise up”, from them and meet the LORD in the air. They will at that time get their new glorified spiritual bodies fit for the Kingdom of GOD.
            They will then have immortality (won’t be able to die again). They will then be incorrupt. They will have a spiritual body like JESUS has.
            At the second coming of JESUS, He will then ride out of heaven on White Horse, and “all” of His saints will be with Him (not angels), and they will ride behind Him on white horses as well. This is when the final battle at Armageddon will happen.
            These TWO events are separate b/c JESUS doesn’t appear the same way both times.
            One with Angels, and one with Saints…
            He doesn’t touch the ground, He waits in the clouds,
            Then, He does touch the ground, and comes on the White horse.
            There is NO possible way they could both be the same event.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            So they died a natural death…to be resurrected by Jesus, then died again to be “absent from the body present with the Lord” just to resurrected again at the Second coming to be, judged, and found worthy to be forever present with the Lord?

            Or…

            So they died a natural death…to be resurrected by Jesus, then fall into sin again to be “lift up eyes in hell, being in torments” just to resurrected again at the Second coming, judged, and tossed in another lake of fire?

            Think about it…Does this really make sense?

          • D.M.S.

            Yes it does.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            Another atheist spawned.

          • D.M.S.

            Thank the good Lord that I don’t have to believe in scripture the only way that John1429 believes. I was raised in an atheist home. I came to believe in our Lord JESUS through reading two books by Hal Lindsey, The Late Great Planet Earth and Satan is Alive and Well on Planet Earth. They were given to me by a college counselor and soon to be friend. There are many roads to our Lord JESUS Christ. But there is only one way to the Father and that is through JESUS the Christ.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            Hal Lindsey…sigh…

          • D.M.S.

            By that remark it sounds like you want me to throw my Thompson Reference Bible NKJV in the Garbage. Because I didn’t believe in JESUS the Christ as my Lord and Savior according to John1429. Do you actually believe there’s only one way to our Lord JESUS Christ. Because if you do you have tunnel vision

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            One Lord. One faith. One baptism…spoken by Paul. Appears to be singular.

            I am the way the truth and the life…spoken by Jesus. Appears also to be singular as well.

          • D.M.S.

            I don’t understand what you’re trying to convey. Do you or don’t you believe that that there are many ways to accept our Lord JESUS Christ as our Savior?

          • jennylynn

            It does not say their bodies were immortal, just resurrected. So what your doing is eisegessing verses, adding presupposition to the text. Every resurrected body eventually died again to be resurrected immortally at the last day. Their spirits went immediately with the Lord at death. 2 Thessalonians 4: 13-16

          • wandakate

            YES, it’s our “SPIRIT” that leaves the body at death and goes to be with the LORD immediately, but the person, the being, the human SOUL goes into the grave and knows nothing.
            Ashes to ashes, and dust to dust. We are NOT immortal until the resurrection of the deal when HE (JESUS) appears.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            2 Corinthians 5:8, “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”

            The fact is that Paul is commenting on the carnal nature of the people that should be “absent” so as to walk “in the Lord” as true and obedient Christians. With that said, Do these next two passages declare Paul dead and speaking from the grave?

            1 Corinthians 5:3, “For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as
            though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,”

            Colossians 2:5, “For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and
            beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.”

            The meaning is obvious when taken in context to that which is written. To be absent from the body is to deny the flesh and therefore present with the Lord as we walk in the Spirit.

            Romans 6:6-8 put it ever so plainly when it said, “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:”

            And John 3:6 says, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

            Let’s not forget Romans 8:1 wherein it says, “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

          • Nannie Brown

            2 Cor. 13:2 Paul was just in another town or city NOT dead, although bodily absent his thoughts were with them.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            Simple as that. I mean how many times do men say, “I am not there, but I am with you in spirit”? Did my “disembodied spirit” leave my body to me present with those whom I am absent from?

          • Nannie Brown

            We have no “disembodied spirit”. The statement simply meas My “thoughts” are with you.

          • wandakate

            WHAT? Ok, I know you think that and that’s b/c that’s what you have learned and it’s very difficult to unlearn what has been learned, however the truth will set you free.
            Paul’s “soul” DID T go to be with the LORD at his death. You are confusing the soul with the spirit.
            JESUS committed His “SPIRIT” to GOD the FATHER, just prior to His death on the cross, when He looked up and said, “FATHER, into thy hands I commit my “SPIRIT”.
            He wasn’t committing a “soul”, it was the “spirit” that went back to the FATHER at His death.
            As for the thief, please realize that you’re reading this in English. In the original writings they used no commas. What JESUS said was, “I tell you this today you will be with me in paradise.” Now they (the translators) decided to put a “comma” after the word THIS, however the comma would have been after the word TODAY.
            So, if we rewrote it correctly it would read this way…
            “I TELL YOU THIS TODAY,(comma) YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE.” Realize that JESUS was indeed serious about the thief being with Him, but it WAS NOT on that day. You see JESUS didn’t go anywhere that day, He died. His spirit left His body and He went into the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights, and then he arose and spend 40 days on earth before ascending back to GOD the FATHER.
            So, you can hopefully see here where it was impossible for the thief to be with JESUS that day.
            He died, and was buried and at the 1st resurrection of the dead, THEN, that thief will come up from the grave and go to be with the LORD…So, when you know the truth, the truth will set you free.

          • jennylynn

            Thank you, I have the truth. You are confused by your 7th day doctrine, as the JW’s are.
            You need to read the Greek translation. The Greek word for Spirit #4151 is Pneuma
            Of the human soul OR SPIRIT after it’s departure from the body and as existing in a separate state, of the soul of a person reaping after death, a spirit, ghost. These terms are often used interchangeably.

          • wandakate

            Did JESUS commit His “SPIRIT” to GOD at His death or was that the “soul”?
            ALSO, does the bible tell us that we have a “SPIRIT” within us?
            What was the “soul”? What did Genesis tell us Adam was?

          • jennylynn

            While the two words are often used interchangeably, the primary distinction between soul and spirit in man is that the soul is the animate life, or the seat of the senses, desires, affections, appetites, and the life which we have in common with other animals. The spirit is that part of us that connects, or refuses to connect, to God. Our spirits relate to His Spirit, either accepting His promptings and conviction, thereby proving that we belong to Him (Romans 8:16) or resisting Him and proving that we do not have spiritual life (Acts 7:51).

          • wandakate

            Thanks, but you didn’t directly answer the 3 questions that I presented to you.
            1. Did JESUS commit His “SPIRIT” to GOD at His death or was that the “soul”? No answer…
            2. Does the bible tell us that we have a “SPIRIT” within us?
            NO answer…it’s yes or not I would think.
            3. What was the “soul” What did Genesis tell us Adam Was?
            Again no answer.

          • jennylynn

            1.
            Psalm 31:5
            Into your hands I commit my spirit; deliver me, LORD, my faithful God.

            Ecclesiastes 12:7
            and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

            Matthew 27:50
            And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

            Mark 15:37
            With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.

            John 19:30
            When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

            Hebrews 5:7

            During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
            2.
            12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

            3. The soul Adam had in Hebrew is #5590 psuche
            Is refering to a general living soul.
            The last Adam who is CHRIST became a (#4151 pneuma) spiritual entity in man.
            This is saying because of Christ death we now have life in Him by His life giving Spirit. Without Him we are spiritualy dead. Unless one is born again he will not see God. It’s by the Spirit of God that a Christian is able to be a new creation. Jesus gives us that new Spirit when one puts their faith in him. Pretty simple concept. This spirit goes to the Lord at death.

            Ezekiel 36:26
            I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

          • wandakate

            Thank you…good solid scriptures here. YES, Adam was the physical man and JESUS CHRIST was the spiritual man.
            That’s what I’ve been saying all along. It’s NOT a soul that goes to GOD, it is (as these verses tell us) the SPIRIT.
            JESUS committed His own spirit at death on the cross.
            It went back to GOD, and when He arose from the tomb, that same SPIRIT re-entered His dead body and He was alive again, He was as He was before, ALIVE forever more.
            So as you said The SPIRIT goes to the LORD at death.
            The Catholic Church tell their people that it’s the immortal SOUL…however that’s not scriptural…as you have proven. Our “soul” IS NOT immortal, until the resurrection of the dead and then it will become that way. We MUST wait in the grave until JESUS appears with the Angels in the clouds to receive our new spiritual glorified body that will feel no pain, and will be like JESUS body.
            It will then not be subject to death.
            Good discussion…nice to find somebody that has studies and knows the truth instead of believing all these other things.
            Aunt Molly the good Catholic is suppose to be up in heaven with GOD and JESUS and she’s walking on streets of gold and she’s seeing the angels come and go and eating from the big tree with all kinds of fruits and on and on and on…Well, I know that she’s not doing those things. Dearly beloved, Aunt Molly went to the grave and she is not aware of anything as she’s basically in a sleep-like state until the resurrection of the dead which is at the appearing of JESUS which is the same as the rapture.
            When they know the truth, the truth will set them free.
            The dead saints can’t help anybody, Mary the Mother of JESUS can’t do anything either…

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            So if absent from the body present with the Lord is true…in a disembodied spirit in heaven, Then why did Jesus do this…

            John 11:14, “Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.”

            Lazarus is dead…right? Thus he is “absent from the body, present with the Lord” He is in HEAVEN, right? But…

            John 11:23-24, “Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

            Jesus told Martha she would see her brother WHEN? As soon as she died? No. Even she knew that she would see him “again in the resurrection at the last day” If that were false Jesus would have rebuked her on the spot. But back to the subject at hand…Lazarus is dead, absent from the body…

            John 11:43, “And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.”

            Wait a minute…are you telling me Jesus took Lazarus’ “spirit” out of heaven, placed it back in his mortal body, just for the sake of a miracle? Do you believe this? What if Lazarus fell into sin afterwards? Now before you say this was before the cross, consider…

            Acts 20:9, “And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.

            And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.”

            Remember… Eutychus was DEAD. Yet Paul prayed for him to be resurrected? Why? I thought he was “absent from the body present with the Lord”! Eutychus was in HEAVEN. Yet Paul prayed him out of heaven…does that make sense?

            So you say…they “thought” he was dead. Ok lets go a step further….

            Acts 9:36-37, “Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.

            And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber.”

            Now there is NO DOUBT Tabitha DIED. And the Word confirms she was full of good works! No doubt she was in heaven to be “present with the Lord” But…mean ole Peter prays her OUT of heaven…

            Acts 9:39-40, “Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and shewing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them.

            But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.”

            I do know if I can break this down any further. We can call both Elijah and Elijah mean. They both prayed little children out of heaven. The Son of God raised many…thus talking them out of heaven! For what purpose? This is not SDA. This is not JW. This is a plainly written “thus saith the Lord”

          • wandakate

            WOW, I have just found in Luke 8:49-56…where it was JESUS that caused her to rise up. It says they were talking to the Master, and JESUS said, “Fear not; believe only, and she shall be made whole (well). When JESUS came into the house, only Peter, and James and John along with the father and mother were in the house. JESUS said, “Weep not, she’s not dead, but sleepeth.
            They knew she was dead. JESUS took her hand and called out saying, Maid, arise.
            And her SPIRIT came again, and she arose. Point here is this. It’s the SPIRIT that returns to GOD at death, b/c it was her SPIRIT that came back into her again and she arose, (without the SPIRIT-the breath of life), she was dead.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            Again…the maid DIED. According to the popular theology, this maid was “present with the Lord”. This teaching displays Jesus to be cruel in that He takes her “disembodied spirit” out of heaven and places it back into a mortal body, subject to death.

          • jennylynn

            John her spirit was not in heaven yet, JESUS wasn’t yet crucified or resurrected. You can only get to heaven through faith in JESUS, and the text doesn’t say she even had faith before this happened. Again CHRIST is proving His power as God.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            Proving? The Jews didn’t “hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead” They had plenty of PROOF. Elijah. Elisha. Plenty of proof as both of those prophets raised a CHILD from the death on the faith of the PARENTS.

            “You can only get to heaven through faith in JESUS” So about the millions of babies that are aborted yearly? 1 year olds? Two year olds? The Scriptures says the age of accountability is 20, so where do those that die who are under this age go?

            But still…explain Acts 9:36-40. Where did Tabitha go when she died? Heaven?

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            “You can only get to heaven through faith in JESUS”

            The same faith that Enoch and Elijah displayed? Did they go to heaven as disembodied spirits?

          • jennylynn

            John this is lengthy but read it through, it might clarify for you! Blessings

            The Bible says that “Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven” (2 Kings 2:11), “Enoch was translated that he should not see death” (Hebrews 11:5), and “God took him” (Genesis 5:24), and Moses appeared in the transfiguration with Jesus (Matthew 17:3). Do these scriptures prove that the three were in heaven (the throne of God) before Jesus was sent to Earth in the flesh?
            John 3:13, “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
            These words were spoken by Jesus himself at a time when only Christ had seen God (John 1:18). And how did He know that no man had ascended up to heaven…the throne of God? Because he came from there! Therefore, what heaven did Elijah go to? What about Enoch and Moses?

            Elijah
            Elijah was taken up by a whirlwind “into heaven” (2 Kings 2:1) by “a chariot of fire, and horses of fire” (verse 11). Yet, over nine hundred years after this event, Jesus Himself said “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven” (John 3:13). Is this a bible contradiction? Did Elijah really ascend to heaven where God’s throne is, even though Jesus said he didn’t? If Elijah did not go to heaven, then where did he go?

            Three Heavens
            The Scripture mentions three heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2), not just one!

            The first heaven is earth’s atmosphere where birds fly (Genesis 1:20, Jeremiah 4:25; 34:20, Lamentations 4:19, Zephaniah 1:3). One of the Hebrew words for ‘heaven’ is shamayim. This same word is translated as ‘sky’ in the Scripture, as can be seen by comparing Genesis 7:3, “fowls also of the air,” with Genesis 7:23, “fowl of the heaven.” The word ‘sky’ and ‘heaven’ are used interchangeably from the same Hebrew word (Psalm 8:8). So the first heaven is synonymous with ‘heights’ or ‘elevations.’

            Here are other examples to illustrate the first heaven. Exodus 19:20 says the Lord was on top of Mount Sinai when he called Moses up there, and God describes Mount Sinai as ‘heaven’ (Exodus 20:22, Deuteronomy 4:36). Here, everything above the ground is called ‘heaven’.

            Another example of the first heaven is in Amos 9:1-3, where God states that at the time of this judgment, nobody will be able to flee away (verse 1), even “though they climb up to heaven” (verse 2). This “heaven” is defined in the next verse, verse 3, as climbing to the top of Mount Carmel.

            Another example is where the Scripture speaks of the “dew of heaven” (Genesis 27:28,39, Deuteronomy 33:28, Daniel 4:15-33; 5:21). The first heaven, from which dew comes, means the atmosphere, where the clouds and the wind roam. Therefore, everything above the ground is called ‘heaven.”

            Another Hebrew word for the first heaven is ‘shachaq.’ This same word for heaven (Psalm 89:6,37) is also translated as ‘sky’ or ‘skies’ (Deuteronomy 33:26; Job 37:18; Psalm 18:11), and as ‘clouds’ (Job 35:5; 36:28; Psalm 36:5; 68:34, Pro. 3:20; 8:28).

            The second heaven is outer space where the planets and stars exist (Genesis 1:14-17; 15:5; 22:17; 26:4, Deuteronomy 1:10; 17:3; Psalm 8:3, Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29). Usually the term “host of heaven” or “firmament of the heaven” is used to describe this second heaven.

            The third heaven is literally called “the third heaven” in 2 Corinthians 12:2. This third heaven is what Christ calls his “Father’s house” (John 14:2), and both Christ and the Apostle Paul calls it “paradise” (Luke 23:43, 2 Corinthians 12:2-4, Revelation 2:7). This is where God and the heavenly sanctuary exist (1 Peter 3:22). This third heaven is also known as the “heaven of heavens” (Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27, 2 Chronicles 2:6; 6:18, Nehemiah 9:6, Psalms 148:4), “The heavenly Jerusalem” (Galatians 4: 26; Hebrews 12:22; Revelation 3:12), the “kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 25:1, James 2:5), the “eternal kingdom” (2 Peter 1:11), the “eternal inheritance” (1 Peter. 1:4, Hebrews 9:15), and the “better country” (Hebrews 11:14,16). The fact that there are more than one ‘heaven’ can be shown by Psalm 115:16, “The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD’S.” There are obviously two different ‘heavens’ being addressed in this one verse.

            Since Elijah could not have gone to the heaven of God’s throne, then to which heaven did he go? He was not taken to God’s heavenly throne (as some imagine). He was actually taken into this earth’s atmosphere, the first heaven. There could be no whirlwind in any other place but in the atmosphere surrounding this earth.

            Why Taken Up?
            What was the reason for this unusual act of God? Why did he take Elijah up into the atmosphere? Was it to make him immortal? No! The Scripture says no word about that! In Hebrews 11:13,39, we read about the prophets who lived by faith and died without receiving the promises. So Elijah was not to be made Immortal, for that would give him pre-eminence above Jesus. But what does the Scripture reveal as the reason for this removal? 2 Kings 2:3 and 5 has the answer.

            Notice what the sons of the prophets said to Elisha: “Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day?” (Kings 2:3). Elijah was the leader of the sons of the prophets in that day. God had sent Elijah as His prophet to wicked king Ahab and to his son Ahaziah. Now God wanted Elisha to direct His work, as Ahaziah the king had died and a new king was ruling. So what did God do?

            He could not allow Elijah to be among the people with Elisha directing the work now. That would have been the same as disqualifying him. God never takes an office from a man when that man has been performing his duty well. The only thing God could do would have been to remove Elijah so that another would fulfill the office. This God did do. When he was taken up, Elijah’s mantle dropped from him and Elisha picked it up (2 Kings 2:12-15). And what did the mantle mean? In Clarke’s Commentary we note that it was “worn by prophets and priests as the simple insignia of their office” (Vol.2, p.484).

            The purpose of God in removing Elijah was to replace him with another man who would occupy Elijah’s office in Israel for another fifty years. This work had to start under a new king, for Ahaziah had just died, and Elijah was already aging. So, as not to disqualify Elijah in the sight of the people, God took him away allowing the mantle which signified the office of Elijah to drop into the hands of Elisha. Thus, God preserves the name and office of His prophet.

            Where did Elijah go?
            This has been the perplexing problem to so many. He did not ascend to the throne of God, because Jesus said so! Also, notice in 2 Kings 3 and 5 that the sons of the prophets knew Elijah would be taken away by God in advance. They believed that Elijah was going to be taken to another location, which is why they were fearful that the Spirit of God might have dropped him “upon some mountain, or into some valley” (2 Kings 2:16). Elisha knew that God would preserve Elijah from falling, but at their insistence he permitted men to go in search for him, to no avail. And God did not say that Elijah was to die at that time. If he were, Elisha could have assumed his new office without the removal of Elijah, for we know that Elisha died in office after fulfilling his duty (2 Kings 13:14).

            The new king of Israel was another son of Ahab, Jehoram, or Joram as he is sometimes called. The beginning of his reign marked the year of his removal of Elijah (2 Kings 1:18 and 3:1). During this king’s reign, Elisha was the recognized prophet of God (2 Kings 3:11). In the fifth year of Joram king of Israel, the son of the king of Judah began to reign along with his father in Judah (2 Kings 8:16). His name also was Jehoram. The first thing he did to establish his kingdom rule was to put his relatives to the sword lest they should claim the throne from him (2 Chronicles 21:4). For nearly six years he followed the ways of the nations about him and did evil in the sight of God.

            Almost ten years had now expired since Elijah was taken from the people. After this wicked rule by the Jewish king, God chose Elijah to write a letter and have it sent to the king! The contents of the letter are found in 2 Chronicles 21:12-15. From the wording of this letter, it is clear that Elijah wrote it after these events had occurred, for he speaks of them as past events, and of the diseases as future, Two years after the king became diseased the king died, having reigned only eight short years (2 Chronicles 21:18-20).

            This proves that the letter was written about ten years after Elijah had been taken to another location by the whirlwind. God used Elijah to convey the message because he was the prophet of God in the days of the present king’s father, and the son was not going in the ways of his obedient father, Jehosophat. This letter proves that he was alive someplace else. The Bible does not reveal how much longer Elijah lived after writing the letter, but it does say that it is appointed for all men to die once (Romans 5:12,14, 1 Corinthians 15:20-23, Hebrews 9:27).

            A similar incident to Elijah’s took place in Acts 8:39,40. Phillip was caught up into the first heaven, as Elijah was, and was transported to another location approximately 30 miles away. Another similar incident happened to Ezekiel, in which the spirit took him away (Ezekiel 3:12). The spirit lifted him up “between the earth and the heaven” and brought him “to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate” (Ezekiel 8:3). Afterwards, the spirit took him up to Chaldea (Ezekiel 11:24).

            Elijah may not have been found because he was transported further away than the fifty men searched (2 Kings 2:17). And, as far as being taken into heaven where God’s throne is, we can know that neither Elijah nor Enoch nor Moses were taken into God’s heavenly abode, because Jesus said, while he was on this earth, that “no man hath ascendeth to heaven” (John 3:13), and “No man hath seen God at any time” (John 1:18).

            Enoch
            Some people believe that Enoch did not die but was taken directly to heaven where God is. But, Enoch eventually died, as all humans die. How can we know? The apostle Paul mentioned the circumstances associated with Enoch in Hebrews 11:5, along with other men of faith, and then stated: “These all died in faith, not having received the promises” (Hebrews 11:13). Yes, Enoch died, and he did not receive the promise of heaven (verse 16) at the time the book of Hebrews was written.

            Based on Hebrews 11:5,13 and Jesus’ statement in John.3:13, “no man hath ascended up to heaven”, how are we to understand the account of Enoch? Genesis 5:21-24 says that Enoch’s days, alive on Earth, ended at 365 years old. The question is, did he die, was he taken to heaven alive, or was he transported to another location on Earth?

            Let us examine the bold phrase in Genesis 5:24, where it says, “And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him” and compare the same Hebrew phrase in:

            Psalms 37:36, “Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.”
            Psalms 39:13, “O spare me, that I may recover strength, before I go hence, and be no more.”

            The Hebrew for the phrases in bold are the same Hebrew as Genesis 5:24. As in the Psalms, the phrase means the person “passed away” or would eventually die. Let’s look at the same phrase in the book of Genesis:

            Genesis 42:13, “And they said, Thy servants are twelve brethren, the sons of one man in the land of Canaan; and, behold, the youngest is this day with our father, and one is not.” This was spoken by his brothers of Joseph. What’d they mean by “is not”?
            Genesis 44:20, “And we said unto my lord, We have a father, an old man, and a child of his old age, a little one; and his brother is dead, and he alone is left of his mother, and his father loveth him.” Here, the brothers recount their previous discussion about Joseph with Pharaoh. When they first said, “and one is not,” they meant Joseph “is dead.”

            Matthew 2:18, “In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.” Where were Rachel’s children? Dead.

            Hebrews 11:5, “By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him:” Does the phrase that says Enoch “should not see death” mean Enoch never died? Hebrews 11:13, “These all died [including Enoch] in faith.” But not only that, verse 13 goes on to say that they did not receive the promises. One of the promises was a heavenly country (verse 16). If Enoch were in heaven, wouldn’t he have received that promise?

            Psalms 89:48, “What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.” Why would this Psalmist ask such a question concerning physical death if he believed Enoch did not see a physical death? The fact is, the Psalmist believed Enoch was in the grave and therefore asked this question.

            So what does the phrase “should not see death” mean? Notice it is not in the present tense, that he “did not see” death, but that he “should not see death.” John 8:51, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death” [see also John 11:26]. This phrase must mean “the second death,” since all the Apostles kept Jesus’ sayings and yet died the first death.

            Based on Hebrews 9:27, “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:” and Hebrews 11:13, “These all died in faith, not having received the promises,” we must conclude that Enoch died the first death. To believe Enoch did not die is to deny the plain word of many other scriptures as well. For example, Romans 5:12, “…so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned” and Romans 5:14, “…death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned.” Are we to believe that Enoch did not sin? Are we to believe that a man who was not yet cleansed of sin by the blood of Jesus could enter heaven and dwell in God’s presence?

          • jennylynn

            First of all you have to understand JESUS is eternal life. In Him we have eternal life, apart from Him you have eternal judgement. Now when Lazarrus died, it was before the crucifiction, so he went straight to Abraham’s bosom. CHRIST is the Only one who gives life to a dead body. If your spirit is not in your body that means your dead. It’s when your spirit comes into your body you have life. Now Lazarus died and when JESUS rose him the first time he didn’t have a glorified body, if he did than he wouldnt die a a second time. So Lazarrus died again and will recieve his resurrected immortal glorified body at the seconds coming with the rest of God’s faithful. Lastly, CHRIST raised Lazzarus and others to demonstrsight that He has power over life and death. He is God and can do that.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            Judging by your earlier posts, I am under the assumption that you believe in the secret rapture/7 year or 3.5 year trib/future antichrist/1000 years of peace on earth…correct? If my assumption is wrong then please forgive me and disregard this comment.

            But…if my assumption is correct…how is it that the bodies of those that are “raptured” proceed to be with Jesus whether in Paradise, or Abraham’s bosom, or whatever holding place they are assigned to go but the bodies of those who have been dead for the last 6000 years must wait until the future coming of Jesus to have their “disembodies spirits” united with their bodies?

          • jennylynn

            I’m absolutely post-trib. In fact my pastor put out the “leftbehindorledastray” video. You should check it out. We believe in the biblical teaching of the Bible. Simply God raises our bodies at the resurrection, and if we die prior our spirit goes to be with The Lord. This is foundational Biblical teaching. only JW’s and seventh day Adventists teach “Soul Sleep” Charles Russel was a 7th day Adventist before he started his own religion.
            I would do some research on this through biblical theology.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            I am sorry but I am neither SDA nor JW. I was raised in a Sunday keeping Baptist church; however, I knew about the state of the dead as a youth. The hope of all men is the virtue of the resurrection. If souls are present with the Lord at death….then what is the point of the resurrection? The tree of life? Paul’s preaching would be in vain if this were true…but it is not. Plus it contradicts the many verses that proclaim the Son of Man will have His reward with Him upon return…and that reward IS heaven. If men can go to heaven immediately upon death, then ALL men should COVET death rather than life so they can be “present with the Lord”. Jennylynn…as I type I wish that I were present with you in spirit. Do I leave my body to traverse in your present as a “disembodied spirit”? Of course not.

          • jennylynn

            Interesting. I went to a baptist church when I was young and never heard that teaching. I think it’s important to read the whole council of God and not isolate verses. It seems you are having a hard time understanding that at the resurection God gives us new glorified bodies like Jesus had when He walked through walls. Before Jesus rose His body, His spirit went to The Lord. As He said to the thief on the cross. Today you will be with me in Paradise. His Spirit was very well alive as it always had been before the beginning of the world, before he took on human flesh. So to not be excited about new resurrected bodies and not have peace to die and be spiritualy with The Lord, I don’t understands how you don’t see these glorious truths. Either way this is for you to Work out with The Lord. Diligently divide the word of truth an when you don’t understand search it out. Don’t come to presuppositions. We have the Bible and Greek/Hebrew translation which i find very helpful.
            Blessings John, nice talking to you!

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            I am sorry I will never embrace “absent from the body, present with the Lord” to mean immediate life after death because it has no biblical support. None. One truth and one truth alone is the resurrection.

            You say those that died before Abraham went to a special place in Hades.

            You say those that died after Abraham but before Jesus went to Abraham’s bosom.

            You say those that died after Calvary went straight to heaven, including the thief, yet the Son of God , or as Paul styles it, “firstfruits of them that slept.” yet He did not even go to heaven that day.

            You say those that are raptured go straight to heaven with new glorified bodies to dwell amongst a multitude of disembodied spirits.

            You say those spirits that are already in heaven come back with Jesus to be placed into a body of flesh just to turn around, get judged, and go back to heaven.

            Yes…I think I am done here.

          • D.M.S.

            I’ve wondered this from the first time we texted. Are you trying to help people know our Lord? or turn them away?

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            See I post verses to make people THINK and read for THEMSELVES versus telling you what I believe, to accept it, and that is that. Simple truths like this are not preached in pulpits that preach and teach immediate life after death. Its the same case with the secret rapture, 7 year trib…there are many verses that the pastors AVOID because they know if the people would read it for THEMSELVES, these lying pastors would be out of a job. But them again even THAT was prophesied.

          • D.M.S.

            So your way is the only way? I don’t believe that GOD would allow that. How about all the countries we’re not allowed into and the only way that these many people will ever hear about our Lord JESUS is through the airwaves.How about all the people that don’t have a Christian Bible and want to know about the Lord. Don’t you believe that the Holy Spirit directs people toward our Lord JESUS at every venue available. I didn’t even know what the unforgivable sin was about until I heard it on the radio by Dr. Michael Yoursef. I will use everything at my disposal to help me learn all I can about our Lord JESUS. And I believe that the Holy Spirit directs us when we do.

          • jennylynn

            You can’t even back up your words with scripture. You are adding your own false presuppositions. I have backed everything with scripture and Greek definitions.

          • wandakate

            I could have backed up everything with scripture, but didn’t take the time to look it all up and type it all out as I had other comments to read and respond to and e-mail also to read.
            What specifically would you like to see in scripture? I would be more than happen to back it up. Nothing is false, everything I write is straight from scripture.

          • jennylynn

            Paul knew his spirit would immediately be with the LORD.

            Matthew 17:1-8
            “And six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and brought them up to a high mountain by themselves. 2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and behold, a voice out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!” 6 And when the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were much afraid. 7 And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Arise, and do not be afraid.” 8 And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one, except Jesus Himself alone.”

            This is known as the Transfiguration of Christ. What is important to note is that Moses and Elijah were both alive in their, so to speak, dead state. In other words, they are not united in their resurrected bodies because the general resurrection has not yet happened. Therefore, we can clearly see that there are at least two people who are alive, after death, who are not in their physical bodies.

            Luke 16:19-31

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            Moses and Elijah both have bodies…fashioned in the manner of the Son of God.

            1 John 3:2, “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, —>>>we shall be like him<<>>for a spirit hath not flesh and
            bones<<<—, as ye see me have."

          • jennylynn

            Not yet, we have bodies like Christ at the resurrection of the dead. Jesus is the only one that has a glorified body. We SHALL BE LIKE HIM. That is future tense.

          • wandakate

            At the resurrection of the dead, which is the same event as the “appearing” of JESUS with His host of heavenly angels, and the “rapture” all wrapped up into one huge event.
            We will have our new spiritual glorified bodies (as JESUS had), at that time (at the resurrection). The 7th trumpet will sound and the dead in CHRIST will rise (up), and in that moment it will happen, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. That is when our mortal bodies will become immortal, and our corrupt bodies will become incorrupt. Amen…
            ONLY…JESUS had immortality. We do NOT go to heaven immediately at our death or hell for that matter.
            It ALL will happen at the resurrection. IF we went at our death then what’s the point of a resurrection?

          • jennylynn

            I agree with you up to the part that you said our spirit remains in our body. If your spirit remains in your body than your not dead. It leaves your body to either judgement Hebrews 9:27 it’s appointed a man once to die and then comes judgement, or in the presense of the Lord as the souls/ spirits are crying out before God.

            Revelation 6:9
            9When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”…

          • D.M.S.

            Correct me if I’m wrong. Doesn’t Scripture state something about arguing amongst ourselves?

          • jennylynn

            Arguing yes, refuting false doctrine no. We are suppose to defend the faith! Furthermore these things need to be discussed especially when salvation is at hand.

            Titus 1:9
            holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

            1 Peter 3:15
            in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence

            A Good Minister of Jesus Christ
            1 Timothy 4:16
            …15Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all. 16Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

          • D.M.S.

            I can agree with that.

          • wandakate

            YES, and it wasn’t going to be an immediate thing. Paul was telling them about his “earthly tent”. How he wanted or longed to be with the LORD. Paul died, and he’s NOT yet in heaven, no, he’s still in the grave, waiting on the resurrection of the dead, so as you say, he will receive his new glorified spiritual body “at JESUS appearing”. When JESUS comes in the clouds with all of His angels and opens the graves from all over the world, then and only then will Paul go to be with the LORD…

          • jennylynn

            Yes, he would recieve his resurrected body at Christ’s coming, but his soul/spirit went to be with the Lord.

            Philipians1:23
            But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart AND BE WITH CHRIST, for that is very much better.

            These Christians ours that have not yet recieved their glorified bodies are in the presence of God crying out to Him.

            Revelation 6:9
            9When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”…

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            Ecclesiastes 12:7, “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”

            The word spirit is used to speak of the “Breath” in Human terms.

            James 2:26, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”

            It gives BOTH realities here. It shares the makeup of the BODY first, and then it shares the makeup of FAITH as well. The body without the spirit/breath is dead, like the faith without works/fruits is dead as well.

            Job chapter 27:3, he says, “All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;”

            Here he is giving breath and spirit the same definition. the breath IN me, and the spirit in my NOSTRILS is to blunt to miss.

            Can the Holy Spirit be in a nostril?

            In this verse we have the word “spirit” being used in the nostrils which is actually the Greek word, “Pneuma” which means Air or Breath. For example, Pneumonia = sickness of the breath, Pneumatic tires = “filled with air, and so on.

            To further confirm this it says in Genesis 7:22, “All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.” That is of course in regards to Noah and the flood. The connection between the breath of life and nostrils is undeniable.

            One more point I want to make regarding James 2:26 here. If someone has NOT the Holy Spirit of God, are they dead? Are people that are not saved BURIED in the ground? Of course not. James is NOT talking about the Holy Spirit in this verse. He is making a clear comparison. He is merely saying, “Just as a body without the ability to breath air is dead in reality, so is the faith of the person who has no works dead in spirituality. Both the carnal and spiritual are being used
            here to illustrate a point. There is no mistaking that, it’s that plain.

            Notice this…

            Genesis 2:7, “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”

            Psalms 146:3-4, “Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.”

            Ecclesiastes 12:7, “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”

            All three speak of the “spirit” or the “breath” in the same manner. If you really think about it,
            Death is creation in reverse! The body goes back to the earth, the breath goes back to the Lord, not a disembodied spirit. There is a REASON Jesus used the term “sleep” in John 11 when speaking of Lazarus. He was showing how HE looks at death, and how WE look at death. Even the Apostles didn’t catch that.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            Revelation 6:9 is a PROPHECY. It has nothing to do with the state of the dead. That is a deep study right there that would take this whole page to explain, with all of the prophetic symbols defined.

          • jennylynn

            Yes, I study prophecy and it makes a very clear point. That souls are absent from the body and present with the Lord. This is before the second coming and the resurection of the dead.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            The dead know nothing. All are in the graves waiting till the resurrections…

          • Becky

            I’m refuting what you’re teaching, which is that our spirits go to heaven, but our bodies stay in the grave. You have no biblical support for your teaching. Romans 6 teaches us that we are “dead to sin, alive to God”.

            The bible clearly teaches that the dead are sleeping, period. There are no scriptures that teach that the body and spirit will separate at death. As a matter of fact, it teaches quite the contrary. In John 5:28-29 it says, “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”

          • jennylynn

            I think your confusing the body and soul. One is talking about the physical body being dead to sin and alive in Christ. This is not talking about the spirit being with the Lord.

            Matthew 17:1-8
            “And six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and brought them up to a high mountain by themselves. 2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and behold, a voice out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!” 6 And when the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were much afraid. 7 And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Arise, and do not be afraid.” 8 And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one, except Jesus Himself alone.”

            This is known as the Transfiguration of Christ. What is important to note is that Moses and Elijah were both alive in their, so to speak, dead state. In other words, they are not united in their resurrected bodies because the general resurrection has not yet happened. Therefore, we can clearly see that there are at least two people who are alive, after death, who are not in their physical bodies.

            Luke 16:19-31

          • Becky

            There’s no confusion on my part. You brought up Paul, so I’m showing you, via scripture, that Paul has always maintained that when we walk with Christ, we are dead to sin. He says nothing about the body and soul separating in death, nor is there any scripture supporting that.

            Our spirit exists no more when we die. Psalm 146:4 clearly says that our breath (spirit/ruwach) is gone and our thoughts perish when we die. Isaiah 38:13 says that the dead cannot praise God or hope for his truth. Not the dead “body”, but the dead. The dead cease to exist in every manner, according to the bible.

          • wandakate

            The body and soul go into the grave and the spirit leaves the body at the last breath and goes back to GOD that gave it in the first place.
            JESUS separated them remember? “FATHER, INTO THY HANDS I COMMIT MY ‘SPIRIT’.” See, it was His “spirit” that left the body and went back to be with His FATHER at His death…The bible says we have a spirit within us.
            The dead know nothing, they are basically sleeping until the resurrection of the dead. They’re NOT aware of anything that’s going on. As you say, the ones in the graves will hear His voice and the 7th trumpet sound, and they will indeed “RISE”. They won’t be “coming down from heaven”, they will be “rising up from the graves”.

          • wandakate

            YES, Paul did realize that he would be present with the LORD, and of course he will be when that time comes, but not until then.
            A soul is NOT immortal…”only” JESUS had immortality. We are mortals, Paul was a mortal. We don’t get that (immortality), until the resurrection. When we are changed from mortal to immortal and from corrupt to incorrupt. That happens in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet (the 7th one).
            Where did Paul tell us that it was going to happen to him at his death? If we all went directly to heaven at death, there would be NO point in a resurrection of the dead.
            The bible tells us that they (the dead) will “RISE UP”. They’re NOT “coming down”. They’re rising up from where they were, in their graves to meet the LORD in the air, and so forever be with the LORD. Somemore Bible study would be needed.
            Most of us are deceived. What we have been told and what is actually in the scriptures are sometime not the same.

          • jennylynn

            I have been saying the same thing in all my posts. Was this for someone else? I was saying that the soul goes immediately with The Lord if saved or hell if not. At the second coming we will get immortal bodies. Our souls are already eternal though without resurrected bodies.

          • wandakate

            Jennylynn…pretty name by the way. Are you a Roman Catholic? They teach the soul is immortal and goes directly to heaven or hell at death.
            That however IS NOT what the Holy Bible tells us.
            I says, the SOUL that sinneth, it shall die. The (person) that sins shall die, (a spiritual death).
            “Only” JESUS had immortality (not subject to death). A human person DOES NOT possess immortality until the 1st resurrection (which is at the appearing of JESUS or the rapture of the saints).
            We DO NOT go immediately to heaven or hell as we’ve not yet been judged by JESUS. Judgment day hasn’t come yet.
            Anything else isn’t biblical, and we need the truth don’t we?
            You say here that the SOUL goes immediately with the LORD if saved and to hell if they’re not saved.
            WHO told you that? Where is that in the Bible? .

          • jennylynn

            Absolutely Not! There are different types of judgements. I think your referring to the Great white throne judgement after the Millenium. There are people who are living who are under God’s judgemnt right now. So I thing you should do some study. There is a bema seat judgement as well.

            It is appointed a man once to die and then comes judgement. Hebrews 9:27

            Before the lake of fire people go to hades, a hellish prison. Believers go straight to the Lord.

          • Nannie Brown

            Only God has immortality.. 1 Timothy 6:14b-16

          • jennylynn

            These souls/spirits are in the presense of God. The saints on the earth are Christ’s ambassadors, the ones that have died have completed their service.

            Revelation 6:9
            9When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10and they cried out with a loud
            voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”…

          • wandakate

            Paul there is talking about His earthly tent. He was saying that there is an earthly tent (which houses our body), and there is the heavenly tent (not made by man).
            He would moan and groan in his earthly body, so he would rather be with the LORD in the heavenly tent than here on earth in the earthly tent.
            I would also rather be at home with the LORD than here in the earthly aching body with all this misery and pain, however Paul “does not” tell us that he’s going to be going there at his death. We “DO NOT” go to heaven or hell at our death where we are conscious. The “Spirit” leaves the body and returns to GOD, but we don’t know anything until the graves open where the dead have been all along.
            We will be present with the LORD at the 1st resurrection, the appearing of JESUS and the rapture (all the same event), and it will be when He comes down from heaven and opens up all the graves.

          • jennylynn

            Paul knew he would be Immedietly be with the Lord. I do agree that the second coming and rapture are the same event.

            This is in reference to what you posted.
            Philipians1:23 but I am hard pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart to be with CHRIST, for that is very much better.

            These are souls/spirits in the presence of God.
            Revelation 6:9
            9When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10and they cried out with a loudvoice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”…

          • wandakate

            Paul’s “SPIRIT” went to be with the LORD. When we all die, our spirit leaves the body which is what has sustained us (the spirit of GOD), and the heartbeat (the physical aspect) but GOD’s spirit is the (spiritual aspect).
            Now, you said…I do agree that the second coming and the rapture are the same event.
            NO, that’s not correct. JESUS “appearing” in the clouds and the rapture are the same event as the 1st resurrection.
            They ALL will happen at once.
            JESUS will appear with Angels in the clouds, then the graves will open up (1sr resurrection), and then ALL of the saved dead saints and ALL of the saved who are still alive will ALL rise up (be raptured) to meet the LORD in the air, and will forever be with the LORD.
            Bible says the unsaved dead remained in their graves until the 2nd resurrection. JESUS second coming will be when he raises those unsaved dead and judges them. then don’t forget the last and final battle at Armageddon, and finally the millennium, and the thousand year reign of CHRIST on this earth.
            Revelation IS our future, it’s not something that has already happened. rev. 6:9 that you have here hasn’t been fulfilled yet, therefore all the souls you’re telling me are in heaven or in the presence of GOD aren’t there NOW. They will be there when the time comes.
            Who’s in heaven right now? GOD, JESUS (sits at the right hand of the FATHER), and Elijah, Enoch and Moses, and a multitude of Angels, that’s all.
            ALL of the other “souls” are in their graves. Bible says, nobody has seen GOD. Nobodys been to heaven except the one who came down out of it and that was JESUS… Not sure who told you these things but they were mistaken. Unless it comes from scripture, it’s not a fact.
            His spirit was with the LORD, but Paul didn’t know anything b/c the dead don’t know anything.

          • jennylynn

            Well, I do agree with you on the dead stay in the grave till the Millenium is over, but their spirits are in hades. All souls are not in their graves. As in this passage during the tribulation the souls are standing before God crying out to Him how long oh Lord?

            Revelation 6:9
            9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O [k]Lord, holy and true, [l]will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

          • D.M.S.

            I disagree that the second coming and the rapture are the same event. they are separate events. Mathew 25 states that.

          • jennylynn

            D.M.S@ there is not one verse that says we escape seven years early. I have studied this extensively. My pastors has a DVD out and a website you can check out called,
            “left Behind or Led Astray” this isn’t a salvation issue, but it is an important issue especially if we are the ones that are going to go through it, and that can happen.
            Matthew 25 is in context with matthew 24. There were no chapter breaks in original text.

            Read these verse slowly.
            Matthew 24:29-31
            29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

            2 Thessalonians 2:2-4
            The Man of Sin
            …2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.…

            1 Corinthians 15:52
            51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised [a]imperishable, and we will be changed.

            Blessings!

          • D.M.S.

            No one nowhere is going have me believe that anyone anywhere on this earth is in in field planting crops or in any factory working side by side, just before the Lord JESUS return. Just by how Revelation describes what is happening in the world it’s impossible for these these people to be doing these things. What’s really happening in the world is that two people are chasing down a

            Rat to eat because they are starving and sick, not realizing that the rat is just as contaminated as they are. But it really doesn’t matter, we will all know for sure when the anti-Christ presents his true self to the world.

          • jennylynn

            Remember the EXODUS was a picture of the end times. All the plagues parallel. The pharaoh is a picture of the antichrist. God protected His people through all the plagues, He Has a perfect target. He also provided radically for them. That being said it will be a time of great persecution and death for the Christian and the Jews, bit our victory is in our death because we don’t bow down to the devil. Revelation 12:11. The Islamic beast is already upon us.

            Revelation 20:4
            And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.…

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            You would be correct in stating that exodus paints the picture of the end times, and the people of God went THROUGH the plagues unscathed, but do you recall the POINT OF ISSUE as to WHY Pharaoh was wroth with Moses and refused to let them go? (All churches miss this simple fact, a fact that is soon to reach fulfillment again, Exodus 5)

          • jennylynn

            Slavery? I think this world is already enslaved, Jews and Americans. Christians are free in Christ whether dead or alive. But I agree that a greater fulfillment of this will be replayed under the antichrist and his system.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            Ex 5:17 reveals the answer and under the climate change agenda, men are ALREADY under the Roman antichrist system and are ready to receive his mark, a law enforcing Sunday observance to combat climate change.

          • D.M.S.

            Dr. David R. Reagan disagrees with your interpretation.

          • wandakate

            Even though the bible does say the dead know nothing, they are only like “sleeping” until JESUS appearance, it also tells us that it’s the “spirit” that leaves the body at death and not anything called a “soul”.
            JESUS looked up when dying on the cross and He said, “FATHER, into thy hands I commit my ‘SPIRIT’.”
            It was His “SPIRIT” that left His body and returned to GOD. It was the breath of life. It (the breath of life from GOD), enters when we are born and it leaves when we take our last breath.
            The body and soul (which is the person) go to the grave and wait until the appearing of JESUS when He appears in the clouds at the 1st resurrection of the saints which is also the rapture. They are all the same event…
            A SOUL is a person. In Genesis, GOD created Adam, and breathed the breath of life into Him and man became a living “SOUL”. Soul is…Human-Person-Being-Mortal Flesh and Blood. It’s our personality.
            The “SPIRIT” will remain with GOD and be reunited supernaturally with the body and soul at the resurrection of the deal. They will then “rise up”, be “raptured” and go to be with JESUS. We are then according to the bible created a “SOUL” and we have a “SPIRIT” inside of us.

          • Nannie Brown

            Ecc.12:7

          • Becky

            “Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
            And the spirit will return to God who gave it.” Ecc 12:7

            The word “spirit” or ruwach is the same word that is used in Gen 7:22. The word spirit in those verses is referring to breath, wind, mind and not some insubstantial, floating entity that has a mind of its own and can worship God…it’s just not biblical.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            And that spirit is nothing more than the life giving breath of God in your lungs…not a disembodied spirit

            Job 27:3, “All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;”

          • wandakate

            YES, they are sleeping in their graves and yes they will awaken when JESUS appears to open up the graves, however when they died their SPIRIT went to GOD for safekeeping. It will be rejoined supernaturally at the resurrection of the dead.

          • jennylynn

            After the resurection of Christ they went to heaven. Before that Abraham’s bosom.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            Sister, Abraham was born after all three of these individuals…

          • jennylynn

            Yes, but he died before the death and reaurection of Christ. Do you not understand that Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law. That is why He died for us. After His death the believer no longer goes to Abraham’s bosom but into God’s presence.
            Absense from the body present with The Lord

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            The curse of the law is DEATH, not eternal life in the flames of hell…or Jesus would still be paying the penalty for the sins of men, in eternal fire in the flames of hell.

            But you still did not say where the home of the righteous were…BEFORE Abraham. Peter will tell you…

            Acts 2:29, “Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.”

          • jennylynn

            Jesus died in our place that is the curse He became. He became sin on our behalf. This is ONLY FOR THE BORN AGAIN. The unrepentant will pay for their own sin in hell, because God is just. Know that God puts hurdles and warnings to keep people out of hell. Acts 2:29 has nothing to do with his soul. Paul is saying his tomb is with them today. If you read the context it is talking about the future resurection of Christ that Was sworn by oath. Obviously you don’t study scripture and this is going nowhere. Believe your own comfortable lie, if it helps you sleep at night, if not search the Scripture.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            Lie?

            Genesis 2:7, “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”

            Word is rather clear…man BECAME a living soul. If you cannot understand this plainly written truth…

          • jennylynn

            Yes, man became a living soul. The soul is eternal. We are made up of body soul and spirit. I’m not sure what your trying to prove???

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            Immortality does not belong to man…for what is the purpose of the tree of life that man needs to live forever? What is the purpose of LIVING? Men should covet DEATH rather than life so they can be “present with the Lord”

            1 Timothy 6:16, “Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.”

            Only GOD hath immortality. Anything outside of that is an assumption…an assumption to believe that because man was made in the “image of God” that he was automatically given immorality? Defeats the purpose of the tree of life.

          • jennylynn

            You need to understand that immortality comes at the resurrection of the dead at Chrisf’s return. Until then yes only Christ is immortal.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            Sister, I do understand that! Yes…only God is immortal.

          • jennylynn

            Until He resurrects us from the dead. 🙂

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            Now we getting somewhere sister… I would love to continue this convo..but I be a lil tired and I do not want to sleep Sabbath day away, sun goes down a lil early in my neck of the woods. I enjoyed talking with you, pleasant debate. I loved it and I love you 🙂 God bless you in your labors…I’ll be sure to see ya around in another discussion 🙂

          • jennylynn

            Very good, blessings!!

          • wandakate

            YES-TARGET…Immortality comes at the resurrection of the dead saints at JESUS first appearing when He appears with all His angels from heaven and stand on a cloud and calls up all the dead all over the world. Then and only then will we receive our new immortal resurrected bodies that will be fit for the kingdom of GOD.
            Otherwise “ONLY” JESUS has immortality.
            Thank you…

          • wandakate

            John, GOD is a “spirit”, and we were told to worship Him in spirit and in truth.
            It was JESUS CHRIST the Son that had the immortality.
            He (JESUS) was NOT subject to death.

          • wandakate

            Just as I have said above, the SOUL is NOT eternal. We DO NOT possess immortality until the 1st resurrection. We became a soul (as with Adam). It’s the spirit that returns to GOD that gave it. JESUS committed His SPIRIT to the FATHER GOD, not His soul.
            You admitted man became a living soul and inside that man was a SPIRIT…Don’t we have a spirit within us Jennylynn?

      • jennylynn

        Absolutely NOT! There is no memory of them. No sorrow, nor pain.

        • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

          Exactly…So many passages that declare the wicked will be consumed to ashes. The wages of sin is death, not an eternity in the flames of everlasting hell fire. Once something is burned up, there is no hope of restoration. None. That’s ETERNAL death. Its very simple to understand and revealed all throughout the Word of the Lord.

          • jennylynn

            It is very much eternal!

            Eternal Fire
            Matt. 25:41, “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.”

            Eternal Punishment
            Matt. 25:46, “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

            The word “eternal” in both places is “aionios” which means 1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be, 2) without beginning, 3) without end, never to cease, everlasting. The word “punishment” is the word “kolasis” and it means “to punish, with the implication of resulting severe suffering–‘to punish, punishment.'”5

            Eternal Fire
            Jude 7, “Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.”

            Thrown into the lake of Fire
            “And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

            Lake of Fire
            Rev. 20:15, “And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            Sodom and Gomorrah are burned to ashes. They are not burning now.

          • jennylynn

            That was a city like Rome that burned. The wicked of sodom will burn forever.

            and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
            2 peter 2:6

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            —>>>example<<<—

          • jennylynn

            “Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come; It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones. Isaiah 14:9

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            Sheol simply means grave. You might wanna grab a KJV. The NASB is awful. Not my opinion…a fact that can easily be proven by showing the 1000s of removed and rewritten verses in that translation.

          • jennylynn

            The King James has many translation errors . I have a Grerk / Hebrew linear and NASB is word for word with the Hebrew Greek. I know I have all translation. We have earlier manuscripts that the KJV didnt have. That being said. Yes Sheol means grave

            Sheol
            “The Hebrew word Sheol is probably derived from a root “to make hollow,” and was seen as the common receptacle of the dead and in the great many places the word appears in the OT, it is referring to the grave.3 It is a place and is mentioned in Gen. 37:35, Num. 16:30, 33, Psalm 16:10, etc. Sheol has many meanings in Scripture: the grave, the underworld, the state of the dead. It was supposed to be below the surface of the earth (Ezek. 31:15, 17, Psalm 86:13).

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            So you believe that when [wicked] men die, they proceed straight to hell…for torments…to be judged later…then cast into the lake of fire? All that for a vapor of a life on this earth…whoa…

          • jennylynn

            I believe what the Bible teaches. It is appointed a man once to die and then comes judgement. Hebrews 9:27. The wicked wait in judgement and will be thrown into the lake of fire at the great white throne judgement.

          • wandakate

            The Marriage Supper Of The LAMB will be for all the saved ones and that is with JESUS/YESHUA. However, the Great White Throne Judgment will be for all sinners and they will have their judgment and be thrown into the lake of fire which is what it says.
            They will grow together and in the end the angels will come and sort them out like the wheat from the tare, or the sheep from the goats, the saved from the unsaved.

          • jennylynn

            Yes the Great white throne judgement is after the millennium. Revelation 20:11-15, but while they are awaiting that eternal fire, they go to Hades which is still a horrible judgement in itself. The Separation of the sheep and goats is after the tribulation to see who goes into the millennium. Mathew 25:31-36. The bema seat judgement distributes or take away gifts to believers. 2 Corinthians 5:10
            .

          • wandakate

            One things for sure, hell is eternal separation from GOD and anything good forever.

          • lizk

            the fire only burns till there is nothing left to burn. They will become ashes.

          • jennylynn

            Was the burning bush consumed with fire? God is eternal and because He’s eternal, hell and salvation are eternal. You think as man thinks. God is not limited by time and space and His ways are higher than ours.

          • lizk

            Then you see God as loving to see sinners burn forever and ever. The Bible says the dead do not praise God.Ps 115:17; there is no remembrance of you; in the grave who will give You thanks Ps 6:5; Jesus calls death a “sleep” 1 Thess 4:15-18; read also Gen 2:7; Eccl 9:5,6,10 Eccl 12:7′: Ps 146:4 His spirit departs, he returns to this earth; in that very day his plans perish; Job 7:,10, 21 He who goes down to the grave does not come up. He shall never return to his house, nor shall his place know him anymore.His sons come to honor, and he does not know it, they are brought low and he does not perceive it.; Isaiah 38:18; Jn 5:28,29; John 11:11,14 Lazarus sleeps (Math 9:24; Acts 7:80) then He made it clear for them Lazarus is dead; ! Corinth 15:51-53 We shall not all sleep. There are others.

          • jennylynn

            The wicked are in hell, they didn’t praise Him when alive and you think they will now that they are completely separated from God. The verse doeant mean there is no eternal hell.

            Isaiah 38:18
            “For Sheol cannot thank You,
            Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness.

            The idea of a loving God sending people to Hell for eternity is not easy to accept. Why would God, who is full of mercy and grace, send people to a place of torment for ever and ever for not trusting in Jesus even though they are nice people, or never heard of Jesus, or were sincerely trying to find God? Is that fair? Is that right?

            When people ask these questions, they are appealing to what they perceive as fairness. They are looking at the issue from their human perspective. But this perspective is not necessarily the right one. If God exists, and He does, then it is He who is the One who says what is right and fair, not us. So, we need to see what the Bible says about what is right regarding sin and salvation and make a decision afterwards.

            The Bible tells us that God is holy, “You shall be holy, for I am holy,” (1 Pet. 1:16). Holiness is incorruptibility, perfection, purity, and the inability to sin, all of which which are possessed by God alone. Holiness is the very nature of God’s character. His character is perfect, without flaw, and He is the standard of all that is right and good.

            The Bible also says that God is infinite , “Great is our Lord, and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite,” (Psalm 147:5). If God’s understanding is infinite, then God is infinite in nature.

            The Bible tells us that God is love. “And we have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him,” (1 John 4:16). God cares about us and seeks our well-being and security. His thoughts about us are infinite, and His love is, too. This is why God does not desire that anyone go to Hell but that all come to repentance (2 Pet. 3:9).

            The Bible tells us that God is righteous. “God is a righteous judge,” (Psalm 7:9). His righteousness is part of His character just as are mercy and love. Righteousness deals with justice, and justice deals with the Law. This means that God will always do that which is right and He does so according to the righteous Law that He has set forth. God cannot do anything wrong. God must do that which is right, otherwise, He would not be righteous.

            Jesus said that “out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks,” (Matt. 12:34). So, too, with God. He speaks out of the abundance of His heart. God spoke the universe into existence, “Let there be light,” (Gen. 1:3) and He also spoke forth the Law (Exodus 20–the Ten Commandments, etc.,). Therefore, the Law of God, is a reflection of God’s character because it comes out of what He is–holy, perfect, righteous, and good. Therefore, the Law is a standard of perfection. It is perfect, and if we do not keep it perfectly, then we have offended the God who gave it. After all, it is a reflection of His character. To break God’s Law is to offend (sin against) God. Since it is law, there is punishment because there is no Law that is a law without a punishment. This means that when we break the Law of God, we fall under the judgment of the Law of God. Since He is infinite, our offense against Him takes on an infinite quality because we have offended an infinitely holy and righteous God.

            Must God punish?
            Yes, God must punish those who break His law because it is the right thing to do. Just as a parent should punish a child for doing something wrong (intentionally), so God must punish those who do wrong. You see, if God did not punish the person who does wrong, then He would be unjust and unrighteous. He would be breaking His own law–which He cannot do. But, someone might say that the punishment of a parent on a child is temporary whereas God’s punishment is eternal. Why the difference? The answer is twofold. First, God is infinite and a parent is not. Second, God is the standard of all righteousness, and the parent is not.

            Because God is infinite, when we sin, we are offending an infinite God. This is incredibly significant. The reason sin is so bad is not so much because of the one committing the sin but because of the One who is offended. In other words, sin is so incredibly bad because it takes on a horrible quality by the very fact of whom it is against: an infinitely pure, holy, and righteous God.

            A parent is not the standard of righteousness. God is. A parent is (or should be) using the righteous standard of God in raising children. Therefore, though a parent’s punishment is temporary because it is instruction and correction, the punishment of God is eternal because our sin is against an eternal God. There is a big difference.

          • lizk

            Jesus call death “sleep” Read Ecclesiastes 12:7; Eccl 9:5,6,10′ 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18; Ps 6:5; Ps 115:17 The dead do not praise the Lord, Nor any who go down into silence; John 11:11,14; 1 Corinth 15:51-53. Jesus calls death a “sleep”. So nobody is is Hell or Heaven. There is no such thing as Limbo or Purgatory. Both Good and Evil people are all sleeping. There is no Ghost and the devil can make you believe that you are talking to the dead when God warns us against this desception.

          • jennylynn

            What Happens When You Die? Soul sleep or conscious existence?

            by Dr. David Reagan
            Lamb and Lion Ministries

            If several years ago you had asked me what happens when you die, I would have given you a pathetic answer. I would have told you that when you die your soul goes to sleep until the Lord returns. At the return of the Lord, your soul is resurrected and judged, and you are either consigned to Hell or allowed to enter Heaven.

            My conception of Heaven was that of a spirit world where the saved spend eternity as disembodied spirits, floating around on clouds, playing harps.

            A Mistaken View

            Needless to say, I couldn’t get very excited about all that. I sure didn’t like the idea of being unconscious in the grave for eons of time. Nor could I develop any enthusiasm for the prospect of being a disembodied spirit with no particular identity or personality. And the idea of playing a harp for all eternity was downright scandalous, for I had been taught that instrumental music in worship was an abomination!

            You can imagine, therefore, the sense of shock I felt when I started studying Bible prophecy and discovered that all these ideas of mine about life after death were foreign to God’s Word. But my shock quickly gave way to exhilaration when I discovered what the Lord really has in store for me.

            The Biblical View

            I learned from God’s Word that when those of us who are Christians die, our spirits never lose their consciousness (Phil. 1:23). Instead, our fully conscious spirits are immediately ushered into the presence of Jesus by His holy angels (2 Cor. 5:8).

            Our spirits remain in the Lord’s presence until He appears for His Church. At that time, He brings our spirits with Him, resurrects our bodies, reunites our spirits with our bodies, and then glorifies our bodies, perfecting them and rendering them eternal (1 Thess. 4:13-18).

            We return with Him to Heaven in our glorified bodies where we are judged for our works to determine our degrees of rewards (2 Cor. 5:10). When this judgment is completed, we participate in a glorious wedding feast to celebrate the union of Jesus and His Bride, the Church (Rev. 19:7-9).

            Witnesses of Glory

            At the conclusion of the feast, we burst from the heavens with Jesus, returning with Him to the earth in glory (Rev. 19:14). We witness His victory at Armageddon, we shout “Hallelujah!” as He is crowned King of kings and Lord of lords, and we revel in His glory as He begins to reign over all the earth from Mt. Zion in Jerusalem (Zech. 14:1-9; Rev. 19:17-21).

            For a thousand years we participate in that reign, assisting Him with the instruction, administration, and enforcement of His perfect laws (Rev. 20:1-6). We see the earth regenerated and nature reconciled (Isa. 11:6-9). We see holiness abound and the earth flooded with peace, righteousness and justice (Mic. 4:1-7).

            At the end of the Millennium we witness the release of Satan to deceive the nations. We see the truly despicable nature of the heart of Man as millions rally to Satan in his attempt to overthrow the throne of Jesus. But we will shout “Hallelujah!” again when we witness God’s supernatural destruction of Satan’s armies and see Satan himself cast into Hell where he will be tormented forever (Rev. 20:7-10).

            We will next witness the Great White Throne Judgment when the unrighteous are resurrected to stand before God. We will see perfect holiness and justice in action as God pronounces His terrible judgment upon this congregation of the damned who have rejected His gift of love and mercy in Jesus Christ (Rev. 20:11-13).

            Jesus will be fully vindicated as every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord. Then the unrighteous will receive their just reward as they are cast into Hell (Rev. 20:14-15).

            Witnesses of a New Creation

            We will then witness the most spectacular fireworks display in all of history. We will be taken to the New Jerusalem, the eternal mansion prepared by Jesus for His Bride, and from there we will watch as God renovates this earth with fire, burning away all the filth and pollution left by Satan’s last battle (2 Pet. 3:12-13).

            RELATED: The Rapture – No One Knows The Day Or The Hour
            Just as the angels rejoiced when God created the universe, we will rejoice as we watch God superheat this earth and reshape it like a hot ball of wax into the New Earth, the eternal earth, the paradise where we will live forever in the presence of God (Rev. 21:1).

            What a glorious moment it will be when we are lowered to the New Earth inside the fabulous New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:2). God will come down from Heaven to dwell with us (Rev. 21:3). He will proclaim: “Behold, I make all things new” (Rev. 21:5) We will see God face to face (Rev. 22:4). He will wipe away all our tears (Rev. 21:4). Death will be no more (Rev. 21:4). We will be given new names (Rev. 2:17), and we will exist as individual personalities encased in perfect bodies (Phil. 3:21). And we will grow eternally in knowledge and love of our infinite Creator, honoring Him with our talents and gifts.

            Now, I can get excited about that!

            The Word vs. Tradition

            Isn’t it amazing how far we can drift away from the Word of God when we stop reading His Word and start mouthing the traditions of men?

            As I kept making one discovery after another in God’s Prophetic Word that ran contrary to what I had been taught, I began to wonder about the origin of the doctrines I had learned. It didn’t take me long to discover that the source was Greek philosophy.

            The first attempt to mix the concepts of Greek philosophy with the teachings of God’s Word came very early in the history of the Church. The attempt was called Gnosticism. The Gnostic heresy arose among the first Gentile converts because they tried to Hellenize the Scriptures; that is, they tried to make the Scriptures conform to the basic tenets of Greek philosophy.

            The Greeks believed that the material universe, including the human body, was evil. This negative view of the creation was diametrically opposed to Hebrew thought, as revealed in the Bible. To the Hebrew mind, the world was created good (Genesis 1:31). And even though the goodness of the creation was corrupted by the sin of Man (Isaiah 24:5-6), the creation still reflects to some degree the glory of God (Psalms 19:1). Most important, the creation will someday be redeemed by God (Romans 8:18-23).

            The Gnostic Heresy

            When the first Gentiles were converted to the Gospel, their Greek-mind set immediately collided with some of the fundamental teachings of Christianity. For example, they wondered, “How could Jesus have come in the flesh if He was God? God is holy. How can He who is holy be encased in a body which is evil?”

            In short, because they viewed the material universe as evil, they could not accept the Bible’s teaching that God became incarnate in the flesh. Their response was to develop the Gnostic heresy that Jesus was a spirit being or phantom who never took on the flesh and therefore never experienced physical death.

            This heresy is denounced strongly in Scripture. In 1 John 4:1-2 we are told to test those who seek our spiritual fellowship by asking them to confess “that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.”

            The Augustinian Corruption

            About 400 A.D. a remarkable theologian by the name of St. Augustine attempted to Hellenize what the Scriptures taught about end time events and life after death. Augustine was very successful in his attempt. His views were adopted by the Council of Ephesus in 431 A.D. and have remained Catholic dogma to this day.

            The influence of Greek philosophy would not allow Augustine to accept what the Bible taught about life after death.

            For example, the Bible says the saints will spend eternity in glorified bodies on a New Earth (Revelation 21:1-7). Such a concept was anathema to the Greek mind of Augustine. If the material world is evil, then he reasoned that the material world must cease to exist when the Lord returns. Augustine solved the problem by spiritualizing what the Bible said. He did this by arguing that the “new earth” of Revelation 21 is just symbolic language for Heaven.

            Augustine’s views are held by most professing Christians today, both Catholic and Protestant. That means that most of Christianity today teaches Greek philosophy rather than the Word of God when it comes to the realm of end time prophecy and life after death.

            RELATED: Father of 6 brutally beaten for converting to Christianity from Islam
            The Intermediate State

            Some of the greatest confusion about life after death relates to the intermediate state between death and eternity. Some people advocate a concept called “soul sleep.” They argue that both the saved and unsaved are unconscious after death until the return of Jesus.

            But the Bible makes it crystal clear that our spirit does not lose its consciousness at death. The only thing that “falls asleep” is our body — in a symbolic sense. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:8 that he would prefer to be “absent from the body and at home with the Lord.” In Philippians 1:21 he observes, “For me to live is Christ and to die is gain.” He then adds in verse 23 that his desire is “to depart and be with Christ.” Paul certainly did not expect to be in a coma after he died!

            If then our spirits retain their consciousness after death, where do they go? The Bible teaches that prior to the resurrection of Jesus, the spirits of the dead went to a place called Hades (“Sheol” in the Old Testament). The spirits existed there consciously in one of two compartments, either Paradise or Torments. This concept is pictured graphically in Jesus’ story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31).

            The Bible indicates that after the death of Jesus on the Cross, He descended into Hades and declared to all the spirits there His triumph over Satan (1 Peter 3:18-19; 4:6). The Bible also indicates that after His resurrection, when He ascended into Heaven, Jesus took Paradise with Him, transferring the spirits of dead saints from Hades to Heaven (Ephesians 4:8-9 and 2 Corinthians 12:1-4). The spirits of dead saints are thereafter pictured as being in Heaven before the throne of God (See Revelation 6:9 and 7:9).

            The spirits of the righteous dead could not go directly to Heaven before the Cross because their sins were not forgiven. Instead, their sins were merely covered by their faith. The forgiveness of their sins had to await the shedding of the blood of Christ (Leviticus 17:11; Romans 5:8-9; Hebrews 9:22).

            Events at Death

            So, what happens when you die? If you are a child of God, your spirit is immediately ushered into the bosom of Jesus by His holy angels. Your spirit remains in Heaven, in the presence of God, until the time of the Rapture. When Jesus comes for His Church, He brings your spirit with Him, resurrects and glorifies your body, making it eternal in nature (1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4). You reign with Christ for a thousand years and then live eternally with Him on the new earth (Revelation 20-22).

            If you are not a child of God, then your spirit goes to Hades at your death. This is a place of torments where your spirit is held until the resurrection of the unrighteous which takes place at the end of the millennial reign of Jesus. At that resurrection you are taken before the Great White Throne of God where you are judged by your works and then condemned to the “second death,” which is the “lake of fire” or Hell (Revelation 20:11-15).

            Preparing for Eternity

            One thing is certain: “Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that ‘Jesus is Lord!’” (Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11). Your eternal destiny will be determined by when you make this confession.

            If it is made before you die, then you will spend eternity with God. If not, then you will make the confession at the Great White Throne judgment before you are cast into Hell. To spend eternity with God, your confession of Jesus as Lord must be made now.

            “If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved” (Romans 10:9).
            by Dr. David R. Reagan

          • lizk

            I think you still need to study death, 2 resurrections there will be no 2nd chance. When He comes again His reward is with Him. Jesuit thinking really messed up the teachings of Jesus. It’s our breath that goes to God who gave it in the 1st place.No one is floating around we sleep all of us. When you sleep you have no concept of time. The dead do not precede the living. The rightious people will be raised and the rightious living will be caught up at the same time. The wicked dead will not be raised till 1,000 yrs. and they will receive their punishment together with the devil. This is not what God wants to do, but evil will not happen the 2nd time.

          • jennylynn

            I agree with you there are no second chances and the wicked (physical bodies) will be raised after the millennium. I also agree that our physical bodies get resurrected at the second . coming. So you can say your physical body is asleep, but your spirit is with The Lord, not in the ground for eons of time or Paul would not have said it is very much better to depart and go be with The Lord. And absent from the body present with The Lord. That’s why the souls are before the throne before the second coming. So we agree on somethings. I can assure you that our spirits are with The Lord at death and that is a glorious thing. Eternal life is eternal. Not eternal after soul sleep, that is a false teaching.

          • lizk

            do you read Gen 2:7 The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living being (so bibles say soul) So when the breath leaves the soul goes back to the ground.

          • jennylynn

            Although the Hebrew word for soul (nephesh) can be used with reference to a living being (Genesis 2:7) in the sense that man is a living soul, it does not mean that the word is only limited to this view. Genesis 2:7 tells us only what man is, not what man is not. According to this Scripture it affirms that man is a living being but does not deny that man has an immaterial nature. A rule of Biblical interpretation is always let Scripture interpret Scripture. Not only is man a living being but he has an immaterial soul. For example in Matthew 10:28 Jesus says,

            “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell (NIV).” The Greek word for “soul” in this scripture is psuche which is often used to translate the Hebrew term nephesh into Greek. Notice in this scripture (and many others) the word “soul” is being used to designate the part of man that continues on after physical death. If body and soul were always synonymous in Scripture then

            the soul would die when our physical body dies, however Jesus did not teach this. Please see Scriptures such as Revelation 6:9-10; Acts 7:59 and 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 for examples (there are many other Scriptures as well).

          • D.M.S.

            Thank you, that was quite interesting. I just started watching and listening to Dr. David R. Reagan this year. Have you ever watched the Pastor’s Study?

          • jennylynn

            No, my pastor gives me a full meal, but he was right on point.

            🙂

          • D.M.S.

            I didn’t understand your reply, but that’s okay.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            What happened to just reading the Bible?

          • D.M.S.

            Why can’t I do both? Or don’t you believe that the Holy Spirit can lead us to other venues of reading and listening( radio ) and watching ( TV ) about and for our Lord JESUS?

          • jennylynn

            Sleep is an expression for death for the believer, meaning the believer never dies in Christ. Our eternal life is in Christ because He is the eternal one.

            John 11:26
            Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

            Revelation 21:8
            But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

            Revelation 20:15
            And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

            Matthew 25:46
            And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

          • lizk

            Only God has immortality we are mortal and we will not get immortality till Jesus returns and wakes up the righteous, then we have to put on immortality, and there will be the tree of life in heaven. The wicked dead will receive their punishment. When God will destroy the wicked from the face of the earth. They will be ashes on the feet of the saints. They will burn up.

          • jennylynn

            You are judgeing God and His character. He is perfectly holy and just and full of love. He sent His Son to take the punishment for the world, that is love. If people reject His payments than they are left to pay for their own sins which are commited before a perfect, righteous holy, loving God. You know nothing, we are but dust. God sees everything, all the wicked, evil things, that you don’t. I thank God that vengeance is His and not mine and He is on the throne!

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            The burning bush has nothing to do with the judgement.

          • jennylynn

            No, but God is eternal like eternal life and eternal judgement, and He is a consuming fire!

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            You cannot take one verse (the burning bush) to support eternal life in hell fire when there are scores of verses that say exactly the opposite.

            Consuming: taken from online dictionary…

            verb (used with object), consumed, consuming.

            1. to destroy or expend by use; use up.

            2. to eat or drink up; devour.

            —>>>3. to destroy, as by decomposition or burning: <<>>together<<<—, and none shall quench them.

            Together meaning…AT THE SAME TIME.

            What is a year's worth of hard labor, a short time on this sinful planet compared with an eternity in burning flames?

            Think about Hitler…

            What is the murder of 16 million people when compared with billions being kept alive for no other purpose than to ceaselessly extract every ounce of pain from them for trillions upon trillions of agonizing years with no hope of ever escaping?

            If Hell is really as bad as this, then God has designed a system of judgment that involves far more horrendous practices than even the wickedest of men would ever dream of.

            What can be said about a God who would create such a place?

            Is this the God that we are supposed to share with others in what we call the "Good News"? Thus people do not come to know Jesus as Saviour, they come to know Him simply for fire insurance.

          • jennylynn

            John@ I wasn’t using that verse to prove hell is eternal, but God’s fire doesn’t always consume. You are calling JESUS and His word a liar. Read the Bible and get out of your comfort zone.

            1. Undying Worm and Unquenchable Fire (OT)

            Isaiah 66:22-24

            For as the new heavens and the new earth
            that I make
            shall remain before me, says the LORD,
            so shall your offspring and your name remain.
            From new moon to new moon,
            and from Sabbath to Sabbath,
            all flesh shall come to worship before me,
            declares the LORD.

            And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.

            2. Everlasting Life/Everlasting Contempt

            Daniel 12:1-2

            At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

            3. Eternal Fire/The Fire of Hell

            Matthew 18:6-9

            Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes! And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

            4. Eternal Punishment/Eternal Life

            Matthew 25:31-46

            When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” . . . Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

            5. Undying Worm and Unquenchable Fire (NT)

            Mark 9:42-48

            Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, “where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”

            6. Everlasting Destruction

            2 Thessalonians 1:5-10

            This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering—since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

            7. The Punishment of Eternal Fire

            Jude 7

            Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

            8. Blackest Darkness Reserved Forever

            Jude 13

            [These people are] wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

            9. The Smoke of Their Torment Rises for Ever and Ever

            Revelation 14:9-11

            If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

            10. The Lake of Fire

            Revelation 20:10, 14-15

            And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. . . . Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            Sister I am not in a “comfort zone”. Some have enjoyed the preconceived notion for years that God will punish sinners in an eternal flame either it be via Hollywood movies or pastors who attempt to scare the people into the belief that God is going to burn you in a fire that never goes out because the Scripture says “the fire shall not be quenched”. In no wise am I calling God a liar because 1. There are too many Scriptures that dictate the body and souls of wicked men will be UTTERLY consumed and 2. You use a Roman Catholic perversion of the Scriptures to convey a doctrine and 3. I actually READ my Bible to “try the spirits” and “to prove ALL things”. I notice scores of verses that you refuse to share because you have probably never read them or likely never taught by those pulpits that preach a hell and brimstone angry tyrant God (and potray Him as “just” for burning souls for billions of years) DO you understand WHY Good is just in the punishment (not punishing) of the wicked)? It is His Law. Through His Law those who keep it are VINDICATED and those who transgress are found to be worthy of DEATH. Eternal fire is not death. Everlasting flames is not the “destruction from the Almighty that is to come”. It is simply the doctrine of PURGATORY that is taught by preachers who err in the Word. By chance you pastor of leader attended seminary? That of the Dallas Theological Seminary? Is he a professed “doctor of divinity”.

          • jennylynn

            I abhore the RCC. I am a fundamental Bible believing Christian. I don’t believe in purgatory . I study the Bible and believe The warnings of Christ as did the apostles.
            You are free to deny scripture if you want.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            What would be gained to God should we admit that he delights in witnessing unceasing tortures; that he is regaled with the groans and shrieks and imprecations of the suffering creatures whom he holds in the flames of hell?

            Can these horrid sounds be music in the ear of Infinite Love? It is urged that the infliction of endless misery upon the wicked would show God’s hatred of sin as an evil which is ruinous to the peace and order of the universe.

            Blasphemy!

            As if God’s hatred of sin is the reason why he perpetuates sin. God’s glory is not enhanced by thus perpetuating continually increasing sin through ceaseless ages. It is beyond the power of the human mind to estimate the evil which has been wrought by the heresy of eternal torment. The religion of the Bible, full of love and goodness, and abounding in compassion, is darkened by superstition and clothed with terror. The theory of eternal torment is one of the false doctrines that constitute the wine of the abominations of Babylon, of which she makes all nations drink.

            How can you abhor the RCC when the very bible you quote from is a Roman Catholic perversion of the Scriptures? I say this with hopes that you would actually research the origin of the Bible that you use. An all loving God never taught eternal life in hellfire. It all boils down to this simple fact. You believe in the immortality of the soul, and because you believe a soul never dies and is a disembodied spirit, you concur that eternal torment in “presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb” is just, holy and true. Meaning this place of “torment” is in the presence of God to witness forever and ever. How repugnant to every emotion of love and mercy, and even to our sense of justice, is the doctrine that the wicked dead are tormented with fire and brimstone in an eternally burning hell; that for the sins of a brief, earthly life they are to suffer torture as long as God shall live.

            And the “fundamental” Christian says…”The sight of hell-torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. When they see others who are of the same nature and born under the same circumstances, plunged in such misery, and they so distinguished, it will make them sensible of how happy they are.”

            Where, in the pages of God’s Word, is such teaching to be found? Will the redeemed in Heaven be lost to all emotions of pity and compassion, and even to feelings of common humanity?

            And the “fundamental” Christian says…”the smoke of their torment will be eternally ascending in view of the vessels of mercy, who, instead of taking the part of these miserable objects, will say, Amen, Alleluia! praise ye the Lord!”

            Blasphemy.

            A soul is simply a breathing body made of dust and the breath of life.

            Only God is immortal.

            God made man is his “image” and “likeness”. Did He ever say anywhere in the Word that men are immortal? (thus nullifying the purpose of the tree of life)

            When a man dies, he waits in the grave until the resurrections.

            The righteous will live and reign will Christ 1000 years in heaven.

            At the end of the 1000 years the wicked will rise to receive their doom on the surface of this earth, a burning, seething lake of fire.

            The “worm shall not die” because the will have TRILLIONS of bodies of wicked men throughout the ages to eat. Plus after this there is NO MORE DEATH. These worms will not die because death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.

            “Their fire shall not be quenched” because God will not put it out. The wicked are the fuel for the fire and as long as there is fuel…the fire will BURN. Start a fire. Burn anything. What happens to said item when you burn it? All fire is a witness to this simple fact…the item is CONSUMED, to the item, or in this case, to the wicked…the fire is eternal. Anyone who has ever lose a house due to fire knows this simple fact. As Nahum said “affliction shall not rise up a second time” No one will get up from this death because they will be ASHES.

            When all the wicked are consumed and the fire goes out, the righteous will walk on their ashes as they prepare to watch God recreate and the earth anew.

          • jennylynn

            Your problem is not with me it is with God and His word. You feel justified as His judge. I will pray for you John. Lastly I read from the Hebrew Greek translation which is quite clear!

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            Proverbs 28:9. Take heed. Sunday keeper? Then DEFINITELY take heed.

            How you figure I am judging now? Judging who? You preach that God gets pleasure out of burning souls in a fire that never goes out! Thats worse than the most wicked man to have EVER stepped foot on this planet…and you wonder why so many reject Christ? Because He sends people to eternal flames! Thats what the hell and brimstone pulpits preach! No matter if you died as a young sinner, say 15 years old that decided to gang bang, he deserves billions of years of torment. He dies, goes to torment, gets resurrected, judged, just to be thrown back in a fiery torment.

          • jennylynn

            God is love and He wills that no one should perish. He has made a way for all people to be saved. That being said He is a just God if He wasn’t than He wouldn’t be love. Allowing wicked people to live or not be punished is not love and it’s not good. If you think you know more than God, than have your way with Him.

            Ezekiel 33:11
            Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            You say the wicked will burn in an everlasting fire and that’s just…that’s love no matter if you died young, old, rich, poor…by your posting ” I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked”. No He has no pleasure in them DYING but rather living in an eternal flame.

            By the way…people of Israel and “house” or Israel are two totally different statements. But when you use a false Bible, those sort of contradictory statements are expected.

            I say the wicked will burn according to their works. Some will burn as in but a moment (a vapor) others will suffer even longer. Satan himself will suffer the longest, even after all of the wicked men are consumed, he will continue to be tormented and then ultimately burned to ashes. Sin and sinners will be no more. That is holy just and good. A land wherein dwelleth righteousness and not a hint or trace of evil or to hear the screams of tormented souls for as long as God shall live.

          • jennylynn

            John you are saying things I never said. I said there is a hell and God will send wicked unrepentant people there. I never said children go there, there is an age of accountability. He is love and just, He has put hurdles in front of peole to keep them out of hell, he sent His Son to take our punishment we deserve. He has also given us free will because He doesn’t want robots. You have to choose to reject God’s sacrifice and then you can’t blame anyone but yourself,because God has made a way of escape.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            I have simply chosen to reject the lie of eternal torment in hellfire. Is that my presupposition? Nope. That is exactly what you are preaching. You said God “sends” people to hell, yet the Scriptures declare that hell is simply another word for grave. The only fire mentioned is the lake of fire this earth will become after fire reigned down from God out of heaven to devour the wicked. No mention of an underground or outer realm. Clear that this even takes place on EARTH in the sight of God, the Lamb and the Holy angels.

          • Peridot Path

            EXCELLENT.

          • jennylynn

            For the Christian there will be no memory, but not for the unsaved. They will remember every rejection of Christ they made so they will be without excuse!

          • wandakate

            It makes no sense to me that a tiny bit of water would ease any pain if you were being tormented in the flames…Wasn’t that another parable?
            Are the dead sleeping in their graves? Or did they die and immediately go to be with GOD. The “spirit” leaves the body at death and goes to GOD, that much is true. Because JESUS said that to the FATHER. Just prior to dying on the cross He looked up and said, “FATHER, into thy hands I commit my ‘SPIRIT’.” So, it was the spirit that left the body, not a soul, not the flesh. JESUS then went into the tomb and remained there for 3 days and 3 nights, correct?

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            It clearly a parable. Jesus said …

            John 4:14, “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.”

            The Gentiles…or Lazarus as the parable puts it, accepted that Water of life. The Jews rejected the Water. Thus the rich man (Jews) asked HIM for some of that Water. And what did Abraham tell him?

          • Laurence Charles Ringo

            Actually only one passage in the book of Malachi says that,John1429dotorg,so you’re playing fast and loose with Scripture here. If you think that Jesus lied,man-up and say so,and stop playing pseudo – theological word games.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            One passage? Lol. Word games? Do you understand my speech? Rather plain I would say.

            Jude tells us what will happen to those that live ungodly – Sodom and Gomorrah are our examples…burning eternally are they?. So does Peter – this WHOLE PLANET will burn with a fervent heat. And Nahum – affliction SHALL not rise up a second time. And Obidiah. Even Isaiah tell us that Satan will be no more, smeared to the side of the pit…yet his followers will burn in an everlasting, eternal flame. I can go on a on.

      • Bob Schoenle

        Evidently, you have not read Isaiah 65:17. Do yourself a favor and read it ASAP!

        • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

          Tell that to the Evangelical world that preaches immediate life after death in a disembodied spirit. I know that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a PARABLE, but today it is preached to be literal.

          • Bob Schoenle

            This story is literal because the Lord Jesus NEVER used proper names in a parable such as Lazarus, Abraham, and Moses. Also, it is in the pages of the Holy Bible we learn of having immediate life after physical death in a disembodied spirt. “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord” (2 Cor. 5:8).

            False teachers from the past, like Ellen G. White, are now well aware of the realty of the torment section of Hades. Hopefully, you will escape that faith by solely, trusting in the finished work of the Lord Jesus for sinners, by faith alone. All who refuse to do so will find themselves in the same place as the rich man in this story until they are cast into the ‘Lake of Fire’ (Rev.20:11-15).

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            So I’ll ask you the same question…can those in heaven converse with those in hell?

            By the way…you say one should “trust in the finished work of the Lord Jesus for sinners” By assuming your belief in eternal torment in an eternal flame is true, then the wages of sin is death…and the penalty of death is eternal life in hell fire, then the Son of God should still be paying that penalty now…

          • wandakate

            What JESUS did on the cross was to provide us with eternal salvation in the coming Kingdom of GOD.
            We must confess our sins before Him, we must repent of them as well, and finally we need to forsake them all.
            We also MUST “OBEY” His commandments. Didn’t JESUS tell us, “IF you love me, keep my commandments”? What commandments was He referring to there?
            Don’t we have to “OBEY” and do the will of GOD the FATHER, in order to be in the Kingdom of GOD?
            JESUS said, “Not everyone who says to me, LORD, LORD, will enter into the Kingdom of GOD, but ‘only’ the ones who did the will of my FATHER”.
            There is our answer…ONLY THE ONES WHO DID THE WILL OF THE FATHER, they were the ones who “OBEYED”!
            We are saved by grace, but we will be judged by our WORKS.
            JESUS said, “I am bringing my reward with me, to give to each according to his WORKS shall be.
            Our faith without our works is DEAD!!!

          • Bob Schoenle

            The answer to your question John1429dotorg, is that the people in Heaven cannot converse with those in the torment section of Hades. The ‘Paradise’ section of Hades where the spirits of the saved like Lazarus, Moses and Abraham went to prior to the cross is now empty.

            The reason why the saved of the Old Testament went to the Paradise section of Hades is that their sins were only ‘covered’ by the blood of the animals sacrificed on their behalf. It took the shed blood of the Lord Jesus to REMOVE their sins allowing them to then be taken to Heaven by the Lord Jesus (Lev. 17:11; Heb. 9:11-22; 10:4, 9-18) after His bodily resurrection. Thus, they are now in Heaven waiting for their new physical bodies along with those who died as believers in the Lord Jesus as Savior after the cross.

            The triune Godhead consists of three distinct personalities known as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The torment endured by God, the Son, during the three hours of separation from the presence of the Father and the Holy Spirit, while on the cross, can NEVER be fully understood or appreciated by any created being whether angelic or human. Which is why no other penalty will ever be required to pay by those who are trusting that the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus is sufficient for their everlasting salvation. Amen!

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            “The ‘Paradise’ section of Hades where the spirits of the saved like Lazarus, Moses and Abraham went to prior to the cross is now empty.”

            Where did Tabitha (Acts 9:36) go when SHE died? You say…

            “they are now in Heaven waiting for their new physical bodies along with those who died as believers in the Lord Jesus as Savior after the cross”

            But…but…Peter prayed her “out” of heaven to be back in a mortal body, subject to sin and death! Do you see the absurdity of this teaching? The Bible is clear…no one goes to heaven (or hell) until the ressurection. No one is in hell and the only beings recorded to be in heaven now are Enoch, Elijah, Moses, and the 24 elders who came up with Jesus at Calvary. That’s it. This all stems from a misunderstanding of Genesis 2:7. One class says that man was given an immortal soul, another says that man BECAME a soul.

          • Bob Schoenle

            The absurdity is your unwillingness to believe what is recorded in the Holy Scriptures. By praying for the girl to come back to life and his prayer being answered Peter’s message of eternal life through the Lord Jesus Christ was authenticated to those who witnessed the miracle. The same as when the Lord Jesus raised his friend Lazarus from the dead after he had been in the grave for four days.

            You might be interested in knowing that the word ‘death’ means SEPARATION. The word ‘life’ means CONNECTION. The first separation [death] is of the spirit from its human body when it goes either to the torments section of Hades or into the presence of God. The second separation [death] is from the presence of the God of all creation (Rev. 20:11-15). This will be the faith of all who rejected to do the will of God during their life on earth.

            The will of God for all who live in our current ‘Age of Grace’ is to simply trust in what the Lord Jesus has done for them and in nothing they have done (Rom. 4:5). This includes all religious rituals, etc. I hope, for your sake, you will come to know the truth and be saved. Maranatha!

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            Authenticated to who? Unbelieving Jews? Martha KNEW before she witnessed the miracle that she would see her brother again…but when? At the resurrection of the last day. The same resurrection preached by Job, David, Isaiah, Solomon, Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, James…but who preached disembodied spirits? The Lord rebuked His own for believing that He was a “spirit” while He walked on water and Thomas for not believing a flesh and bone body was standing before him. But…

            According to “absent from the body, present with the Lord” doctrine of the immortality of the soul, the “disembodied spirit” of both the maid and Lazarus were in heaven to be “present with the Lord”…in the “bosom of Abraham” For what what purpose shall one be placed back into a body of corruption to be subject to sin and death …again when he or she is already in PARADISE? That’s absurdity. The Word of God is clear…the dead know NOTHING. The body of flesh died with both parties mention…and the breath of life, the spirit of God returned unto Him who gave it. Not one Scripture declares Abraham bosom to a holding place for these “spirits” This teaching goes hand in hand with the doctrine of limbo taught by Rome, who in turn adopted it from paganism.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            Are you Catholic…because this echoes the doctrine of limbo word for word.

      • Laurence Charles Ringo

        Do you have any proof that what YOU claimed will be the case,John1429dotorg? Cite Scripture,please—otherwise I will assume that you made that assertion up.

        • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

          Do you believe in immediate life after death to be absent from the body present with the Lord? Do you believe the rich man is in hell as a disembodied spirit, writhing in pain “as long as God shall live”? If so…you make this claim…not me. I know that Luke 16 is a parable. Yet I speak on the level of those that preach immediate life after death, to refute the fallacy of their claims.

          • wandakate

            I believe we are NOT immortal. Only JESUS had immortality. We humans WILL NOT receive immortality until the 1st resurrection of the dead. When JESUS comes. Our mortal bodies can’t enter into the Kingdom of GOD. We must have a body like JESUS ( a spiritual body), and we will at the rising up of the dead in CHRIST.
            What is present from the body at death is our “SPIRIT”. JESUS said He was commanding His SPIRIT back to the FATHER GOD when He died.
            After sleeping in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights, the spirit of GOD re-entered JESUS body and He lived again. It’s the HRCC that has said we are immortal and that we immediately at death will go to heaven or hell. JESUS claimed its “only” the SPIRIT, that’s it.

      • lizk

        because people believe is ghosts they believe that God loves to see people suffer. The devil has people believing all the bad things are His fault.Jesus called death “sleep” if only people would study it out for themselves.

    • Fanetta

      Thanks for helping D,R Carson and SDA, They believe in Hell just not a eternal Hell, for reasons you already listed Matthew 10:28 that God can destroy both the Body and Soul in Hell, if the SOUL can’t be destroy why would Jesus say that?

      • Reason2012

        No, he says there’s no such place as_hell, God/Jesus makes it clear there is such a place. So, is Jesus a liar? No – this means Carson and SDA are wrong, not God/Jesus.
        Does Jesus say the soul is destroyed instantly?
        No.
        Does Jesus point out it’s a place of torment?
        Yes.
        Does the Bible point out hell was enlarged for all the wicked people?
        Yes.
        Would it need to be enlarged if it was just a place people were turned to ash instantly?
        No.
        Does the Bible point out there will be various degrees of punishment?
        Yes. But no longer true if all the unsaved are just instantly killed.

        You are looking at one verse only to support that doctrine and ignore all the other verses that contradict the belief that a person’s soul is destroyed instantly when they face God, and ignore the clear fact there WILL be torment in hell people will experience – not to mention varying degrees of punishment.

        • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

          The Scriptures declare in the book of Mark 4:34 – But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

          Jesus spoke in parables to get a specific point across. The story of the rich man and Lazarus is a PARABLE. It is the last in a line of parables starting in Luke 15:4.

          Parables are not to be taken literally. They make use of allegory and symbolism and figurative speech to establish a spiritual truth or teach a moral or lesson. Parables are not specific to the New Testament only. Judges 9: 8-15 is an example of a parable. This, of course is not to be taken literally. Who has ever heard of trees talking and conversing with one another asking olive trees, fig trees, vines, and brambles to reign as king. Who has witnessed such things, besides those who perhaps have smoked, snorted, injected, or drank some kind of mind-altering substance! This particular parable is cited by many – both Catholics and protestant groups alike, as proof that there is consciousness in death and a literal place of eternal torment called hell. The translation of the Greek word Hades is the GRAVE It’s Hebrew counterpart is Sheol. They mean one and the same. Consequently, this teaching is bogus and not in harmony with the Scriptures. It’s roots are in paganism where is the residence of ALL false religions. And this is the source of Roman Catholicism’s and their protestant daughters teachings regarding the teaching of hell, among other false teachings.

          Let’s now examine the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus.

          Luke 16:19-31, “There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

          And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

          And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.”

          This parable cannot be understood literally because:

          1. Abraham’s bosom is NOT the home of the saved. Abraham knew where his real home is to be: Hebrews 11:10 – For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Abraham’s bosom is a FIGURATIVE representation of heaven. The representation of hell is ALSO FIGURATIVE. BOTH must be LITERAL or BOTH must be FIGURATIVE.

          2. Those is heaven will NOT be able to talk with those in hell. Isaiah 65:17 says the former things will not even be remembered, and Revelation 21:4 says the former things are passed away, which would be inclusive of hell as well. For the Scriptures say: Revelation 20:14 – And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. So, death and hell are destroyed in the lake of fire. There will be no more death and no more grave!!!!

          3. The Bible indicates that the dead, both good and bad, are in their GRAVES, Job 17:13; Job 21:30-32; and they will hear Jesus’ voice FROM THEIR GRAVES, John 5:28,29, and not from heaven or this fictional subterranean place with disembodied spirits screaming and crying and writhing in this place called hell.

          4. The Bible teaches that men will receive their reward at the second coming, and not at death, Revelation 22:11,12; Matthew 16:27. It would make Jesus contradict His own words: Matthew 16:27, “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”

          Not only does taking this parable literally cause Jesus to contradict Himself, it’s also contradictory of the entire theory of disembodied spirits in the eternal torments of hell. For it describes the rich man with eyes, a tongue, and lips. If taken literally, this parable would prove that men are cast into hell, soul and BODY, at death. Of course this is totally ridiculous. There have been many bodies of dead people that have been exhumed after having been dead for months. It is a well-known fact that the eyes are still in the body even then; hence the absurdity of taking the parable literally is further seen. The eyes, tongue, hands, feet, and every other part of the dead anatomy are in the grave(until the process of decomposition is complete and becomes ashes), not in hell-fire.

          In this parable, Christ was simply using a common belief of the day to illustrate the truth of the parable spoken in Luke 16:31: and that is, if a man refuses to be guided by the Scripture, there is no hope for him. And in this particular doctrine, both protestants and Catholics are guilty of teaching for Christian doctrine, a false superstition of paganism.

          @disqus_K2aAqUILjM:disqus @jennylynn69:disqus

          • Reason2012

            After trying to use the PARABLE of Lazarus as literal “proof” “those in heaven see their loved ones burn in hell” – now that your claim was refuted you now try to dismiss it as a PARABLE, “not to be taken literally” – this after you’ve been taking it literally in all your other posts to try using it to promote your beliefs.

            You are being quite dishonest, John, and others will see that quite plainly, realizing what you say cannot be trusted.

            Then going off on another rabbit trail, you only give more reasons we should believe your doctrine instead of what God makes clear. It’s God you’ll have to convince, John, not me or anyone else.

            Your beliefs are contradicted by the entire Bible, and here are some of them. Take care.

            “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
            Revelation 21:8

            “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
            Matthew 25:46

            “The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.”
            Psalms 9:17

            “Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
            2 Thessalonians 1:9

            “[Jesus said] And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
            Matthew 13:50

            “Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.”
            Acts 2:27

            “[Jesus said] And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:”
            Mark 9:43

            “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”
            Jude 1:7

            “The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.”
            Proverbs 15:24

            “Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.”
            Proverbs 23:14

            “[Jesus said] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
            Matthew 13:42

            “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”
            Matthew 25:41

            “And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.”
            Revelation 19:20

            “Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?”
            Proverbs 15:11

            “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;”
            2 Peter 2:4

            “And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
            Revelation 20:13-15

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            Everlasting punishment or is it punishING? Its a parable bro. You never refuted my claim because I never made the claim that the righteous and the wicked interact. You did, and wrote a whole novel to try to prove it somehow. I guess King Saul was actually “speaking” with Samuel…just like Abraham was speaking with the rich man? Its a parable and will always be a parable that illustrates the Jews losing their status as God’s chosen people and would be replaced by those that have faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour. Has nothing to do with the state of the dead. Explain how the righteous will walk on the ashes of the dead (Mal 4:1-3). Why does Peter say this WHOLE planet will be on fire in the same fashion as the old world was covered with water in Noah’s day? Only those who were in the ark lived. Only those who are in New Jerusalem will come out to walk on the ashes of the dead. Noah could not leave the ark until the waters DRIED. The righteous will not leave the city until the fire consumes all of the wicked. Its very simple. Look at all of those verses you posted with the word hell. Insert the word “grave” there. Case closed.

            But ye say…the wicked go to hell at death..get judged…and are tossed BACK into the flames at the second death. This is what you illustrate by using Rev 20:13-15. Again…another atheist spawned.

          • Reason2012

            After trying to use the PARABLE of Lazarus as literal “proof” “those in heaven see their loved ones burn in hell” – now that your claim was refuted you now try to dismiss it as a PARABLE, “not to be taken literally” – this after you’ve been taking it literally in all your other posts to try using it to promote your beliefs.

            You run from this fact and won’t address it – why is that?

            You are being quite dishonest, John, and others will see that quite plainly, realizing what you say cannot be trusted.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            Again brother, I NEVER made the claim that “those in heaven see their loved ones burn in hell” Never. You did. Its a parable and I have always known it to be a parable. You said that literal Abraham conversed with a literal rich man in the spirit world, with bold letters and underlines. I simply used YOUR understanding of Luke 16 to illustrate my point, so please, do not try to spin my words. Please post where you claim “this after you’ve been taking it literally in all your other posts to try using it to promote your beliefs.” Good luck with that…because you will not find it. I promote it to be a PARABLE because that’s what it is…a PARABLE.

            Just for a moment, ponder the complete absurdity of this teaching. A wicked man dies. His body is buried in the ground. His spirit essence leaves his dead body. This spirit essence has all the senses as did his physical body. He can see, hear, touch, smell, and taste – although he possesses no eyes, nose, tongue, ears, and nerve endings – for they are all rotting in the grave! He can feel pain and mental anguish as well – although the Bible says the opposite. So, this wicked man is now in hell being in torments as he burns with unquenchable fire, yet is not consumed in the flames, since he is to burn forever and ever!!!

            OK – got the picture???

            Now comes Jesus Christ at the second coming in which He emphatically states that: Revelation 22:12 – And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. So, now what is to happen??? When Jesus returns, he resurrects the dead body of the wicked and reunites it with their burning, yet not consumed spirit essences, and at the judgment, Jesus then informs the wicked AGAIN that they will be punished in the flames of hell for ever and ever?????? So, their spirit essences get a short reprieve from the flames while Jesus proceeds to inform them in the judgment that they are workers of iniquity and have been consigned to the flamesof hell! This is the epitome of stupidity!!!

            The Bible says: Romans 6:23 – For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. But ye say: “The wages of sin is ETERNAL LIFE in the FLAMES OF HELL!

          • Reason2012

            // I NEVER made the claim that “those in heaven see their loved ones burn in hell” Never. You did. //

            Why are you being dishonest? Everyone can scroll up: The very first response to me from you was:

            // So those in heaven can look over a see their dead loves ones burning forever and ever as long as God shall live? That’s heaven? //

            You’re the one claiming it. I didn’t. I refuted that claim from you, but you kept claiming the parable of Lazarus somehow proved it.

            And now you’ve changed your tune and dismiss the parable altogether as it’s just a “parable”.

            At least others will see you’re clearly being dishonest even about the things you post, and hence cannot be trusted on any exegesis of any passages of the Bible as you have no intention of being honest here.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            Why do you continue to twist and spin? Changed my tune about what? YOU said Abraham talked to the rich man from heaven as a LITERAL EVENT, and used the Scripture to support your claim. Thus I asked…

            //So those in heaven (i.e. Abraham) can look over a see their dead loves ones (i.e. the rich man…Abraham called him SON, the rich man called him FATHER) burning forever and ever as long as God shall live? That’s heaven?//

            By BELIEVING that Luke 16 is literal and not a PARABLE, you make the claim TRUE. Not me. I phrased the question as to what YOU believe, not me. Do you believe in immediate life after death? Then you believe “those in heaven can look over a see their dead loves ones burning forever and ever as long as God shall live” Simple as that bro. I did not make a STATEMENT. I asked a QUESTION. You do not REFUTE a “question”…you simply answer it…which you ducked and dodged…so who is being dishonest here? You still have not answered the question.

            What’s dishonest? Believing the lie of immediate life after death. Eternal life in hell fire to be tormented as long as God shall live. Disembodied spirits (yet the Scripture reveals plainly that these are spirits of DEVILS)

          • wandakate

            Didn’t JESUS say, “They teach for doctrines, the commandments of man”?

        • Fanetta

          Let me say this another way, Eternal hellfire for the wicked is not biblical as mention in Malachi 4:1-3 is from GOD himself”, please read the whole scripture as this is the fate of the Wicked. Then you will trample on the Wicked: they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day I act”, Says the Lord… That day will be the coming of the LORD that is spoken of in Revelation 20:7-10.

          Both the Father & Jesus make it clear, the Wicked will be destroy forever, turn into ashes”. They won’t be in a eternal hell because the Lake of fire will destroy them.. The fate of the wicked is ashes, just like Satan to no longer exist in God’s universe.

          John 3:16, Describes it best whoever believes in Jesus Christ will have eternal life and not perish.. The word perish translated in Greek means to destroy fully

          Ezekiel 28:18-19 Speaks about Satan, the words Devou, Ashes, and never shalt be anymore. This is God’s plan for the Devil Satan. The time will come when Satan no longer exists in God’s universe”. The Bible itself is pretty clear the WICKED will turn into ashes which means,destroy

          • Reason2012

            Malachi 4 is talking about people alive on the Earth, when they’re killed and burned, those are the ashes that His people would trample on the ashes thereof. Not the unsaved face God after they die here and are turned to ash, then those who are saved, when they die on the Earth and face God will then be sent to go walk on those ashes wherever their ashes are deposited.

            Then you combine two different verses to make a new implied verse that’s not in the Bible: that they will be turned into ash (their human body) but pretend that’s the “forever and ever” of the judgment of God when they face Him after they die here.

            Malachi:
            1 People will die in their human form and be turned to ashes
            2 Human beings still alive will walk on their ashes

            Not
            1 People will die here, face God for judgment and be turned to ash
            2 Others that are saved, after they die here, will be resurrected to be sent where the unsaved’ ashes are to walk on them then.

            Your references to perish does not mean perish instantly when they face God. And if a person was to be cast into_hell eternally never to get out, that’s equivalent to perishing as they’re not coming back from this world.

            Not to mention all the verses that need to be ignored to try to claim there’s no such thing as hell.

            “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
            Revelation 21:8

            “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
            Matthew 25:46

            “The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.”
            Psalms 9:17

            “Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
            2 Thessalonians 1:9

            “[Jesus said] And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
            Matthew 13:50

            “Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.”
            Acts 2:27

            “[Jesus said] And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:”
            Mark 9:43

            “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”
            Jude 1:7

            “The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.”
            Proverbs 15:24

            “Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.”
            Proverbs 23:14

            “[Jesus said] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
            Matthew 13:42

            “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”
            Matthew 25:41

            “And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.”
            Revelation 19:20

            “Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?”
            Proverbs 15:11

            “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;”
            2 Peter 2:4

            “And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
            Revelation 20:13-15

        • Fanetta

          How can you not see what you say goes against the character of God as mentioned in ( Luke 23:34. As I live, says the Lord God. I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

          God is LOVE, but he cannot allow sin, crime and violence to continue to cause suffering and death in this world. God is not a God to torture His children. So he does the most loving thing He can do, He destroys them eternally

          Malachi 4:1,3. “These verses tell us that the wicked will be burned up, burned to ashes. in other place the Bible says in Psalms 37:10,11, For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more indeed. You will look diligently for his place but he will be no more..

          • Reason2012

            The unsaved are not “his children”. Please cite where in the Bible God says all human beings alive are “His children”?

            Jesus makes it clear most are NOT His children:

            “[Jesus said] Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.”
            John 8:43-45

            Right there Jesus points out that many are the children of the devil, not God’s children.

            SO why is it you teach those who are sent to_hell are “His children” instead of what Jesus says: that they are children of the devil?

            “[Jesus said] Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
            Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.”

            Matthew 7:13-15

            It’s interesting right after He points out that most people are going to face_hell that He then warns to beware of false teachers who will act like Christians, look like Christians, talk like Christians, pray like Christians, teach things like Christians, but instead are deceivers who will teach false doctrines about God.

            I would think again: we must compare scripture with scripture and we see that God is a God of justice as well as a God of love and if we reject that love it’s because we’re children of the devil, not still children of God.

        • Fanetta

          Let me ask you, is Sodam and Gomorrah still burning in hellfire or are it’s residents dead? Death is the result of sin, not eternal burning in hell Romans 6:23) The Christian God that we worship is not a monster that enjoys seeing people burning in hellfire in torment for eternity. He is LOVE and will end the life of the unrepented sinner at judgement time. Which is the second death Revelation 21:8

          The Bible makes it obvious the WICKED will turn into ashes” they will be no more in existence. the Lake of Fire in Hell will destroy their souls and turn them into ashes. That’s why Jesus said God can destroy both the BODY and Soul and to fear him…

        • Fanetta

          God will never let Satan and his Demons have pleasure in torturing his creation, his beloved creation. The Bible makes it clear anyone who’s name is not found in the book of life, will be destroyed, perished, everlasting punishment, destroyed buy an imaginable Heat, That’s still, a horrific thing and they will be ashes under our feet!.

          Ever lasting, torture and punishment in HELL will prove Evil still EXIST for billions of YEARS! The Bible makes it clear Our loving Father” will put an end to all suffering and EVIL will no longer exist Amen.

          So no, I do not believe in a eternal Hell as it goes against God’s character’ I know Hell or the Lake of Fire can destroy souls that’s the only way the wicked can turned into ashes, probably why Jesus said, God can destroy both the Body and soul,. to fear him..

          • Reason2012

            It doesn’t say Satan is the one torturing them.

            The Bible makes it clear people are cast into hell, that there will be torment. You read one verse in the Bible talking about actual destruction of the enemies of Israel and are assuming that’s talking about all those who are condemned over the existence of the human race after they die here. It’s not.

            God will put an end to OUR suffering – He didn’t say He’d put an end to theirs.

            God’s Word is not determined by what we want to believe (and our complete lack of knowing everything but assuming we do) – His Word is determined by what He has made plain. Justice does not go against God’s character – it goes against the character of a false god that people need to create, pretending God is love, love, love, even some assuming every single person is saved.

            “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
            Isaiah 55:8-9

            We need to stop twisting God’s Word in our ignorance to make Him something He’s not, and His Word to say things it does not.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            It cannot get any simpler than that 🙂

            What men fail to realize is that this is not a JW or SDA message. Its plainly written in the Word.

      • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

        When fire rains down from heaven to destroy the wicked…WHERE will this take place?

        • Fanetta

          Revelation 21:2 Explains that but where are you going with this?

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            That the places of “torment” is not in the center of the earth of on some distant universe. This earth and the wicked inhabitants thereof will be turned into hell. This whole planet, as exampled by the flood, will be overflowed with flames, a burning, seething lake of fire.

    • Fanetta

      DR Carson and SDA, believes in Hell just not eternal Hell” they believe the soul is not eternal and can be destroy as Jesus taught in Matthew 10:28, Why would he say that? if the Soul couldn’t be destroy?

    • lizk

      I agree with Luke 12;4-5. but you need to cross reference Luke 16:22-31 and study out the whole issue. My question how would a loving God love to see people tormenited. I don’t believe it. For when the wicked are destroyed they will be dust. It’s amazing the devil has got people to think they have immortal souls (which is false)

      • Reason2012

        I’ve read the issue throughout the Bible and it’s clear such a place exists.

        // My question how would a loving God love to see people tormenited //

        See your objection is not what the Bible says – it’s you not wanting it to say it.
        And where does it say God “loves” to “see” people tormented?
        Where does it say God sits there and watches it?
        You inject your own bias into the equation, which should be your wake up call that you’re not reading the Bible for what it says, but for what you want it to say and don’t want it to say.

        It grieves God that people should perish. But He is not just a God of “love” as many false churches teach, He’s a God of justice. The Bible makes it clear for the unsaved there are degrees of punishment and_hell is where those degrees of punishment are meted out.

        Perhaps people are tormented for different amounts of time in hell before finally being destroyed. But the fact is there will be at the very least torment in hell.

        People are tormented in our prisons – does that make us evil? No, that’s called justice: paying the consequences for the deeds people have done. And so it goes with God: people will pay the consequences for their deeds throughout life.

        What’s amazing is the devil has people convinced there is no hell – that you instead just go to “sleep” and feel no more. So much for fear of judgment from God: I’ll just sin all I want then go to sleep and feel nothing so who cares.

        • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

          Carson, even though I do not agree with him on many points of doctrine, advocates what the Bible teaches. Death is sleep. The second death is eternal in a lake of fire. Some will burn in a moment, like a vapor. Others will pay a larger portion for their wickedness. Satan himself will be the last one that will be fully consumed.

        • lizk

          God is allowing all this because mankind has turned their backs on Him. The devil knows he has a short time. Mankind has the freedom to chose which side he is on. God never forces but gives everyone the freedom to chose. Jesus said if you love me keep My commandments. The 10 points out what sin is. If there is no law, there is no sin and we would not need a savior. The devil loves it when people do not have a personal relationship with Jesus. For the devil hates Jesus and he has his people. If satan can change into an angel of light so can his people. Jesus says I am the way, the truth and the life. No one can go to the Father except through Me. God said my people perish for lack of knowledge. Some people do not want to know what God says.

      • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

        Exactly. How would a loving God love to see people torment? He would not! But Satan would! Satan, through Romanism and Islam, have been torturing and killing the people of God for eons.

        Romans 1:32, “Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”

        But the Creator of heaven and earth says…

        Ezekiel 18:32, “For I have NO PLEASURE in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.”

        Tormenting souls in an eternal flame is not an UTTER END as God declares here:

        Nahum 1:9, “What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time”

        Ashes is what the wicked will be. The beginning of the wicked man will be his end…dust and ashes.

      • jennylynn

        You cannot separate justice from love. Love is just! You do not see through the whole scope. Who are you to judge the character of God? You need to study the whole word of God and talk to Him about this!

        • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

          The character of God is revealed in His Law, the Ten Commandments.

  • afchief

    2 Peter 2:4-6 (NASB) For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

    • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

      Ashes do not burn forever…and those ashes are “an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter”

  • Enrique Baldwin Del Castillo

    I don’t think he said that, he read the BIBLE by himself and do not to mention his religion, he knows better than that.

    • Fanetta

      DR Carson believes in Hell just not eternal Hell as Jesus taught in Matthew 10:28

  • Fr. Agathon

    It is unfortunate that Dr Carson entered politics and now hopes to pass himself off as a theologian or a spirit filled Christian. It is so so sad that a person who dedicated himself to his profession has become ridiculous. I read once that Dr Carson’s favorite book in the Bible was Proverbs. Here are a few quotes he should remember:

    “Pride goes before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.”
    “A man’s pride shall bring him low: but honor shall uphold the humble in spirit.”

    I truly feel sorry for you Dr Carson. Forgive me.

  • Suu

    You don’t have to be SDA to believe that there is no eternal torment. I’m not SDA, I’m a bible based Christian and the Bible does not teach hell. Verses have been butchered and misinterpreted. Jesus offers eternal life or death, not eternal life in a good place or a bad place.

    • Mark Hodge

      Amen!

    • Peridot Path

      You need to reread the New Testament , especially the Words of Jesus.
      You can scroll back to the article that gives chapters/verses plainly
      exposing your comment that the Bible does not teach about hell to be very
      false. You said : ” I’m a Bible based Christian”. You need a major
      refresher course in it because your idea does not jive with the God’s Word.
      From the Gospels to Revelation , and points in between, Jesus and His
      disciples mention hell. Get the facts , please.

      • Guest

        The issue is in the translation. Several Hebrew and Greek words are translated into the English ‘hell’ and they have different meanings.

        Do all people live forever? No, only those who have accepted Christ and his gift of eternal life do. From the Old Testament to the New we know that without His gift we will be destroyed body and soul for death is the reward of sin and we have all sinned. How long that destruction takes we don’t yet know but we do know it happens by the Word of God.

        The only beings that might burn forever are the beings who were created immortal in the first place, the devil and his angels.

        • Peridot Path

          I just made a detailed reply post above yours with the scriptures
          proving that those who are not in the Lamb’s Book of Life will
          be thrown into the Lake of Fire , which is the second death ,
          and that their torment will be forever. See Rev. 20:15 and
          Revelation 20:10 and 19:20.

          • Guest

            Ok, Rev 19:20 says these mortals will be cast in fire that burns with brimstone, no eternal burning there.

            20:10 says the devil, an immortal angel, will be burning forever and ever. Note the very distinct difference between the fate of the angel and no such claim for the mortals?

            and 20:15 punctuates these differences once again only saying those not in the book of life will be put in the lake.

            By your own passages its clear that we only know the Devil will burn forever and we have many instances in the Old and New Testament that mortal beings will be destroyed, body and soul.

            Your thinking these passages support you when they obviously don’t guides me to think once again there are just very many mistaken people.

            Of course this has nothing to do with salvation, people who think either way on this issue can be just as saved, it is a distraction – like fretting about what meats to eat, what holidays to celebrate, discussing the levels of heaven, or how many angels really can dance on the head of a pin. Distractions from what God commanded us to do at best.

      • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

        The fact is hell is not an eternal place of torment or else the Son of God would be there paying the penalty for the sins of the world.

        • Peridot Path

          Revelation 20:10 “And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” ///
          Revelation 19:20 mentions the beast & false prophet will be thrown
          into the lake of fire ” alive”. ///

          Revelation 20 :15 “Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.”///

          Hebrews 9:27-28 ” 27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.”///
          Christ’s sacrifice is finished , just as He said on the cross.
          He will be coming back to give eternal life to those who are waiting
          in holy faith. To those who reject His sacrifice , their names will
          not be included in the Lamb’s Book of Life and therefore they
          will experience the second death , which is the lake of fire.
          And Revelation shows that torment in the lake of fire is eternal.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            A short life on this earth is deserving of eternal torment in the flames of hell. Another atheist generated.

          • Gerry Buck

            Actually, it does not say torment is eternal, it says the results are eternal, just like with Sodom and Gomorrah, Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
            And anyone that can see knows the fire does not burn today. Showing the results are eternal, it says eternal punishment, NOT punishing.

          • jennylynn

            Mark 9:47-48
            I your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell, WHERE THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, and the fire is not quenched. For everyone will be salted with fire.

            The worm are memories that don’t go away!
            Pretty clear!

          • Fanetta

            Jesus confirmed that souls can and will be destroyed in Matthew 10:28 Don’;t fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able destroy both body and soul in hell…

          • jennylynn

            Jesus was saying that He has power over all life, so don’t fear man. He wasn’t saying there isn’t eternal hell.

            “Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die. Ezekiel 18:4

            Eternal Fire
            Matt. 25:41, “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.”

            Eternal Punishment
            Matt. 25:46, “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

            The word “eternal” in both places is “aionios” which means 1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be, 2) without beginning, 3) without end, never to cease, everlasting. The word “punishment” is the word “kolasis” and it means “to punish, with the implication of resulting severe suffering–‘to punish, punishment.'”5

            Eternal Fire
            Jude 7, “Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.”

            Thrown into the lake of Fire
            “And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

            Lake of Fire
            Rev. 20:15, “And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

          • Fanetta

            Did Jesus teach eternal torment or were that the churches, the Bible explains in Ezekiel 18:20” The soul that sinneth, it shall die”.

            Yes, Christ taught Hell is eternal: The souls go there to be destroyed, this is the second death. Only the worm and the flames are eternal. The souls that go to Hell are destoryed

          • jennylynn

            All souls are eternal. You are making your own false teaching to suit your desire.w

            No, the soul does not cease to exist after death. The Bible clearly teaches us in the New Testament that we continue on after death. We will go over those Scriptures, but before we do, those who affirm soul sleep often refer to the Old Testament and obtain their doctrine from it alone.

            Eccl. 9:5, For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.”
            Eccl. 12:7, “then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.”
            Often, the case with people who hold this position and refer to Ecclesiastes forget the context. The first three verses of Ecclesiastes say,

            “The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem. 2 “Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher, “Vanity of vanities! All is vanity.” 3 What advantage does man have in all his work which he does under the sun?”

            Notice that he is writing about things from a human perspective–from that which is “under the sun.” He is not providing doctrinal statements about life after death. From the human perspective, when you die, the dead don’t know anything in that the spirit returns to God who gave it. But neither one of these statements means that the soul ceases to exist. Of course the pro-soul sleep advocate will say that “the dead not knowing anything” means they don’t exist. But again, this is written from the perspective of people on earth. Also, we do not interpret the New Testament in light of the Old. It is the New Testament that interprets the Old Testament. This is why we look to what the Word of God says in totality.

          • jennylynn

            Jesus was simply stating He has the power over all life.

          • Fanetta

            Why would Jesus say that if the soul can’t be destroy?

          • jennylynn

            Exactly, he wouldn’t!

          • Fanetta

            That’s what DR Carson & SDA means they believe in Hell, just not a eternal Hell that some churches teaches.

          • jennylynn

            Well Dr. Carson doesn’t read his Bible.

            Matt. 25:41, “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.”

            Eternal Punishment
            Matt. 25:46, “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

            The word “eternal” in both places is “aionios” which means 1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be, 2) without beginning, 3) without end, never to cease, everlasting. The word “punishment” is the word “kolasis” and it means “to punish, with the implication of resulting severe suffering–‘to punish, punishment.'”5

            Eternal Fire
            Jude 7, “Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.”

            Thrown into the lake of Fire
            “And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

            Lake of Fire
            Rev. 20:15, “And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

            Luke 16:19-31, Lazarus and the Rich Man
            In Luke 16:19-31 is the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Basically, Lazarus is a poor man who suffers during life. The rich man is, of course, rich. They both die. The rich man goes to Hades. Lazarus goes to Abraham’s bosom, another term for paradise. In Hades, the rich man lifts up his eyes and sees Lazarus far off. He cries out to Abraham and asks for mercy because he is in agony in flame. Abraham says no. Then the rich man asks if someone from the dead were to rise and go tell his brothers not to come to this terrible place. Abraham teaches him that that will not be done either.

            Some say that this is a parable. However, if it is, it is unique because no other parable actually names a person. It isn’t a story. It is history. It really happened. But many who believe in no consciousness after death will say it is still a parable. The question is then if it is a parable, what is it teaching? If Hell fire is false and if self-awareness after death is also false, then Jesus is using false doctrines to teach a truth. Parables illustrate truth. If it is a parable, what does the consciousness after death symbolize? Also, what does the agony in flame symbolize? Are they not real? Of course they are.

          • Fanetta

            Eternal torment does not go with the teaching of God’s character, since GOD is Love, compassionate and merciful. The thought the same God sentences peoples to eternal punishment, is so repulsive that it has turned some peoples away from God and Christianity.

            God is not Evil, like Hitler

          • jennylynn

            You have miss judged the character of God. He is just, and holy, righteous and true. If He doesn’t judge evil than He wouldn’t be God. Yes God is love and because He is love he will justly destroy the wicked. If a rapist and murderer stood before a judge in a court of law, and the judge said because I love you, you are free to go. That wouldnt be loving or just, it would be evil! You forget what the love of God is. It is the CROSS. Jesus was sacrificed to take our punishment from hell. That is love. But one must repent and put their faith in Him. The Lord says vengeance is mine.roman 12:19. The Lords ways area higher than ours. He sees the whole picture, you see from a limited view. I would sugest reading the Bibles he whole way through to get a better understanding of who God is and stop listening to tickling doctrines of men. Maybe dig a little with a Hebrew/Greek linear.

          • Fanetta

            Yes I agree. You JUST SAID IT! God is Holy and righteous the Bible does not teach doctrine of eternal Hellfire but that adopted in Christianity. John 3:16 describes it best whoever believes in Jesus Christ will have eternal life and not perish.. The Word Perish translated in Greek means to Destroy Fully

            in Revelation 20:7-10. The Bible makes it clear the Wicked will be devoured by GOD , The World English dictionary says Devour: Means to waste or destroy, Consume/ The Greek word forever and ever means Aion: Periods of Time not eternity..

            Ezekiel 28:18-19, The words Devour, Ashes, and never shalt be anymore. This is God’s plan for the Devil Satan, The time will come when Satan no longer exists in the world”. The Bible itself is pretty clear the WICKED will turn into Ashes which means destroy..

            The Wicked won’t exist in the next life, the lake of Fire will destroy their souls

          • Fanetta

            I Believe, Churches created eternal torment, while Hell is eternal,Souls can be destroy in Hell” That is why the wicked will be no more when they are judged by Christ. Carson believes the soul, can be destroyed that’s all..

            You have to read his whole comments the headline is misleading…

          • jennylynn

            Churches did not creat it. It is in the Bible. You just don’t know how to read or interpret. I’m not sure what translation your using but it sounds like you have a watered down understanding of Scripture.

          • Fanetta

            The concept of Eternal Hell was adopted into Christianity, it’s actually from Greek mythology, adopted by the Jews who were aroused by the greek teachings of wisdom. But my friend it is very unjust if God should burn us for eternity, especially as we are inherited to sin. This is where the cross comes in.. The Bible makes it clear what happens to the Wicked when Jesus returns, and, before the New Heaven and New Earth. They are brought to ash.

            Malachi 4:1-3 is from GOD Himself read the whole scripture but this is the fate of the Wicked. Then you will trample on the Wicked: they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act”, says the Lord Almighty.. That day will be the coming of the LORD that is spoken of in Revelation 20:7-10.

            Both The Father & Jesus make it clear, the Wicked will be destroy forever, turn into ashes”. They won’t be in a eternal hell because the Lake of Fire will destroy them.. The fate of the wicked is ashes, just like Satan to no longer exist in God’s universe.

          • Fanetta

            Eternal hellfire for the wicked is not biblical. They simply burn, die for their sins as mentioned in Romans 6:23 and turn to ask as mentioned in Malachi 4:3- Please- read them. also take Sodom and Gomorrah for example the wicked of that city turned to ash. They are not still burn in hellfire.

            GOD Makes his plans clear for the Wicked they will turn into ashes, to be destroyed the concept that He ( GOD) Who is Holy and righteous will allow the wicked to suffer forever in the Lake of fire is not biblical and goes against his character. The wicked will be judged alright, they will be destroyed for their actions, turn into ashes once in Hell..

        • jennylynn

          Wrong! God is eternal. He didn’t suffer in hell. He went to proclaim victory to the spirits in prison. 1 peter 3:19 because God is eternal your punishment or your resurection to life is eternal. God is holy and He cannot be in the presence of sin. But know God puts hurdles in front of people to keep them
          Out of there and He will never give you more punishment than you deserve. Furthermore, no one will have any excuses when they stand before God. Your either born again and saved or your not! Your choice, but Christ does NOT NEED TO Suffer IN hell. His perfect sacrifice was sufficient. He is the one who holds the world together by His power. Colossians 1:17, so by His perfect power it is complete!

      • jennylynn

        Amen! Many don’t take time to read God’s word and they are treading on dangerous, yet comfortable ground. All to the devil’s delight.

    • jennylynn

      Wrong, look at the Hbebre/Greek translation which has not been butchered. God is just and holy and must punish sin or He wouldn’t be God. Furthermore if there is no hell than Jesus wouldn’t have to die on the cross for our punishment. This is a dangerous teaching and very convenient for the devil as he lures many there. The problem is people don’t actually “study” the Bible.

  • rubystars

    He just wants to believe hell doesn’t exist because he knows that he will go there for rejecting the real Jesus and for researching on murdered babies.

    • Fanetta

      D.R Carson, believes in Hell, just not a eternal Hell” Jesus taught the soul can be destroy by GOD in Matthew 10:28.

  • Coach

    He’s part of a cult that’s what they believe. You can’t call yourself a Christian and call Jesus a liar as do the multitude who say lord, lord. He, Obama, and muslims have the same thing in common. In desperate need of salvation from the wrath to come, as were we who believe.

    • Fanetta

      Carson doesn’t in eternal Hell in Matthew 10:28, Jesus taught God can destroy both the Physical Body and the soul– Read your Bible…

    • Fanetta

      D.R Carson has not called Jesus a liar just read your bible Matthew 10:28

    • Fanetta

      D.R Carson, does not believe in eternal Hell, Jesus confirmed that souls can and will be destroyed when He taught. And do not fear those who kill but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell Matthew 10:28.

  • jennylynn

    If there is no hell then there is no need for a Savior who died for sin. If God doesn’t judge evil, than He’s not just nor is He God and no better than a corrupt judge. The fact is Jesus died to take our punishment from Hell because He is just and holy. He takes sin very seriously. Hell is very real. If you don’t believe it you are gambling your eternal soul!

    • gizmo23

      Where in the Bible is such a place?

      • jennylynn

        Here is a few. I can give you tons more. Jesus talked more on hell than anyone.

        Translated “Hell” ten times and “grave” one time
        1 Corinthians 15:55 (KJV) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

        Greek: tartaros

        Translated “hell” meaning eternal torment”
        2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

        Greek: gehenna (from the Hebrew Valley of Hinnom)

        Translated “hell” meaning place of everlasting torment
        Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

        Hell is the place of torment for the lost (unsaved). Because everyone has sinned no one deserves to live with the Holy and righteous Heavenly Father (Romans 3:10; 3:23). But God is a loving Father and He offers salvation from death to all, and for those that reject the offer, God’s justice will be executed and the wage of sin will be paid in Hell.

        Torment will be physical

        Luke 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’

        Jude 12-13 These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted;

        • Guest

          Gehenna was the burning garbage pit and is NOT a place of eternal torment but a place where refuse was burned and destroyed as the verse clearly states.

          Humans are not immortal by nature, that is a gift from Christ. All humans without that gift will be destroyed body and soul. Only immortal creations like angels have a chance of being tormented forever.

    • Gerry Buck

      Where in scripture do you find the immortal and soul bound together? I can not find any such connection. And I don’t vague references to absent from the body, I want to know where it says immortal soul.

      • jennylynn

        I don’t understand your question? Bound together?

      • jennylynn

        Most Relevant Verses

        Matthew 10:28
        Verse Concepts
        “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

        Ecclesiastes 12:7
        Verse Concepts
        then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

        Luke 12:20
        Verse Concepts
        “But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?’

        1 Corinthians 15:54
        Verse Concepts
        But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

        Revelation 20:4
        Verse Concepts
        Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

        Romans 6:23
        Verse Concepts
        For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

  • Judy Anne

    7th day adventism is a cult

  • Little o me

    What does it matter what his religious belief is ??? Separation of Church and State RIGHT !!! He obviously is a man of very high moral character and is running for President because he truly loves this Nation. That itself is rare in a presidential candidate. He would make an excellent President and he has my vote … despite our differing religious beliefs.

  • craigjohnson

    he knows there is a h e l l, he’s living in it ..psssst .. ever see his WIFE? Eeeewwwwwww

  • Mark Hodge

    Seems that site doesn’t allow links in comments? As such both of my comments w/links were deleted. Therefore so shall I dissapear from here (vile place), nevermore to return 🙁

  • Paul

    I would never argue with Dr. Carson’s right to believe as he does. The more you talk about your faith though, the more people see you as a proselatizer. If as you say a person who is President must leave his faith subservient to the Constitution, and yet all you talk about is your allegiance to God and your faith, then how is that any different than a Muslim adhering to Islam over the Constitution?
    This is what will doom your candidacy. There is a time and a place to speak of things religious. A campaign to be President of the United States is not one of those times, sad to say. You are correct that this country needs saving from evil forces, such as division and massive irresponsibility, that returning to our Constitutional roots is what will right the ship, however to a lot of people who do not believe as you do, but call themselves Christian all the same, those people will never vote for you based on your zealotry for what they may see as false beliefs. I do not say they are false beliefs, I do say that perception is 9/10ths the law or reality. You will lose because they will see you in a negative light. I speak of Christians sir, not secularists.
    Personally, I had such high hopes for you. If a Muslim must leave his faith subservient to the Constitution, so must a Christian. You are applying for the office of the President not the head of Christian beliefs in this country. I’m sorry you cannot see your own words coming back to bite you.
    This is not about whether you are right or wrong to believe the way you do. This is about saving the last bastion of freedom on this planet. Just sorry you lost sight of that.

    • Fanetta

      Carson believes in Hell just not a eternal Hell that most churches teach”. He believes, once in Hell the Soul can be destroy as Jesus taught in Matthew 10:28.

  • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

    No one is in hell

  • Tuesday

    And this is where Dr. Carson loses a lot of Christian voters.

    • Fanetta

      Shouldn’t really matter, Carson & Seventh Day Adventist believe in Hell”, just not a Eternal Hell, that most church’s used to go by or still teach today. The SDA believe souls can be destroy in Hell that’s all. As Jesus taught Matthew 10:28.

    • Fanetta

      The thought God who is LOVE sentences peoples to eternal punishment is what has turned peoples away from God and Christianity. While the Lake is fire or Hell is eternal the soul can be destroy it’s what Jesus taught in Matthew 10:28…

  • Steve Leddy

    When Adventist say they do not believe in hell they mean in the same way many Christians do. We believe in a hotter hell. A lake of fire that burns and consumes those who do not choose Christ. The Bible is filled with passages that talk about those cast into hell being burned up and consumed. So, you could say we do believe in a hellfire, just not eternal torture. And, we are not the only Christians or denomination that believes this.

  • Becky

    “And in Hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom,” Jesus explained in Luke 16:23. “And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame.”

    I agree with Dr. Carson on this. How hot can hell be if the tip of a wet finger can cool a tongue of someone who’s in hell? It’s figurative.

    • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

      Its a parable sister. Lazarus reps the Gentiles and the rich man reps the Jews. Jesus pointed out in the parable that the two classes were going to switch places. Jesus constantly told he Jews that due to their apostasies one day they would lose their status as God’s chosen people. The book of Esther illustrates this point very well.

  • jennylynn

    This was hades, not the lake of fire which happens after the great white throne judgement. Hades is like a hellish jail.

  • Becky

    Understanding what happens to the dead can help clarify the issue regarding hell.

    1 Thes 4:15-18 states, “For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ
    will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

    Job 3:13-19, Job understands that in death he would remain in the grave.

    Acts 2:29, 34 David didn’t ascend to heaven. He’s still sleeping.

    Ps 146:4 states that when a person dies, “…in that very day his thoughts perish.”

    • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

      As simple as that…

  • Bob Schoenle

    The story about Lazarus the beggar and the rich man is NOT a parable but a story of two men who were contemporaries on earth. The Lord Jesus NEVER used proper names in His parables and there are three mentioned in this account. They are Lazarus, Abraham, and Moses!

  • Avniel

    Believing in Hell is not a prerequisite for POTUS. The proof that liberals believe in hell is that they continue trying to turn America into one. It is far more important to purge the government of enemies of the US than it is to attempt a religious coup. The only litmus test should be Baseball, Hot dogs apple pie & Chevrolet

    • wandakate

      Good sense of humor there…All American things, however I don’t think Carson eats hotdogs. Most Adventist are very healthy and they abstain from unclean meat. No pork, no scavengers, nothing that harms the body. They are very health conscious..

  • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

    PICTURE THIS… A little girl standing next to her mommy at the grave of her Aunt Polly. Her mommy is putting flowers on the grave. She finally asks her mommy. Is Aunt Polly in there? Her mommy says no, Aunt Polly’s up in Heaven. The little girl responds, “Then why are we putting flowers here?” Then her mom says, “No, her body is here and Aunt Polly is up in Heaven” The little girl responds, “You mean to tell me Aunt Polly is running around in Heaven without a body?” Simple Biblical FACT is, we don’t go until Jesus returns, and when we do go we will be in our bodies! Jesus had a FLESH AND BONE BODY when He appeared
    to the Apostles, and He did say that we will have a body like unto His did he not?

    Luke 24:39, “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.”

    Philippians 3:21, “Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.”

    Also notice that Elijah went to Heaven with a FLESH AND BONE body…

    2 Kings 2:11, “And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.”

    And Moses was resurrected with HIS BODY as well.

    Jude 1:9, “Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke
    thee.”

    If a person goes to hell immediately if he’s bad, and Heaven immediately if he’s good at death. then riddle me this…

    WHAT’S THE REASON FOR A RESURRECTION?

    In fact, what is the reason for Judgment day?? According to this theology, man is judged at death. Then that means NO NEED is apparent for a resurrection is there. They are
    already judged, and already in Heaven. Problem with that is, it is NOT what saith the Lord. For he is returning, and His reward IS WITH Him!

    Isaiah 62:11, “Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.”

    If His reward is WITH Him, then how can they be judged and IN Heaven or Hell already? So… the question remains. Are there people in Heaven?

    Yes.. Elijah..Enoch…Moses… are in Heaven. It also says there was a GREAT resurrection at the day Jesus rose as well in Mat 27:52,53. Plus, the 24 Elders in Revelation are those that were REDEEMED OF THE EARTH as well. Fact remains, the vast majority are still in the graves. Does the Bible explain why some went in advance? No. We do know that Moses, and Elijah were “examples” used at the mount of transfiguration so as to depict the second coming with Jesus. But the Bible is silent in regards to the others. It’s simply not necessary for us to know, nor is it something needed to know in regards to our resurrection. Kinda like the lack of info on Dinosaurs eh? We do know they existed, we do know Job spoke of them, yet, not much else is revealed. Need to know basis? Perhaps.

    • Becky

      Amen!

    • wandakate

      Flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of GOD. GOD Himself is a spirit, for we will worship Him in spirit and in truth.
      JESUS had a glorified spiritual body and is in heaven at the right hand of the FATHER GOD.
      People DO NOT go directly to heaven at their death. There were some that went on like Elihah, Moses, Enoch, but the rest wait in their graves for the 1st resurrection of the saved dead and THEN they “rise up”, will be “raptured”, at the appearing of JESUS when He comes in the clouds of heaven with His angels. That is ALL one big huge event.
      The living know they will die, but the dead know not anything.
      The “SPIRIT” departs from the body at death and returns to the LORD.

  • Reason2012

    // John says ” A little girl standing next to her mommy at the grave of her Aunt Polly. Her mommy is putting flowers on the grave. She finally asks her mommy. Is Aunt Polly in there? …” //

    We don’t get God’s truth by made up stories. We get His truths from the Bible. And God already addressed what body we will have, which contradicts again what you are teaching with made up stories.

    “But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
    Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
    All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
    So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

    1 Corinthians 15:35-52

    • BarkingDawg

      It seems to me, that a literal interpretation of that passage is that the sun, the stars, the moon and the planets were born from seeds and that they are alive.

  • lizk

    people you really need to know the scriptures. Jesus called death “sleep”. When we die we do not praise God all our thought parish our loves, hate etc we all wait will Jesus comes with our reward of eternal life. Only God is immortal. Only the breath goes back to God and we return to dust. We will all be judged before He returns. There will be 2 resurrections and blessed is he who is in the 1st resurrection to eternal life. You should really read it for yourself.

    • jennylynn

      I would say the same to you who isolate verses without understanding the full exegesis of the passage. Solomon was not refering to spiritual life but was speaking about earthly matters. You need to read the whole council of God and not cherry pick verses.

      1 Peter 3:18-19
      18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
      in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,

      Ephesians 4:8

      “WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN.”

      Mark 12:26-27
      …26″But regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, and the God of Jacob ‘? 27″He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken.”

      Philippians 1:20-21
      20 according to my earnest expectation and hope, that I will not be put to shame in anything, but that with all boldness, Christ will even now, as always, be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death.
      21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.

      Isaiah 14:9-10
      9 “Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come;
      It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth;
      It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
      10 “They will all respond and say to you,
      ‘Even you have been made weak as we,
      You have become like us.

      Hebres 12:1-2
      Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

  • Little o me

    What does any of this have to do with being President ???

  • D Chitwwood

    7th Day Adventist are considered a cult.