Judge Strikes Down Religious Freedom Law Protecting Right to Decline Part in Same-Sex Ceremonies

US-CrossJACKSON, Miss. (Reuters) A federal judge has blocked a Mississippi law intended to allow people who object on religious grounds to decline services for homosexual ceremonies.

U.S. District Judge Carlton Reeves, in a ruling late on Thursday, said that the wide-ranging law adopted this spring unconstitutionally allowed “arbitrary discrimination” against the homosexuals, unmarried people and others who do not share such views.

“The state has put its thumb on the scale to favor some religious beliefs over others,” wrote Reeves, who issued a preliminary injunction halting the law that was to take effect on Friday.

Mississippi is among a handful of southern U.S. states on the front lines of legal battles over equality, privacy and religious freedom after the U.S. Supreme Court last year legalized same-sex marriage in all 50 states.

Mississippi’s “Protecting Freedom of Conscience from Government Discrimination Act” sought to shield those who believe that marriage involves a man and a woman and that sexual relations should occur within such marriages. The law also protected the belief that gender is defined by sex at birth.

By citing those three religious grounds, the law would have allowed people to refuse to provide a wide range of services, from baking a wedding cake for a same-sex couple to counseling and fertility services. It also permitted dress code and bathroom restrictions to be imposed on transgender people.

Reeves, a judge in U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Mississippi, said the law violated the guarantee of religious neutrality and the promise of equal protection under the law by granting special rights to citizens holding certain beliefs.

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The law “favors Southern Baptist over Unitarian doctrine, Catholic over Episcopalian doctrine, and Orthodox Judaism over Reform Judaism doctrine,” he said.

LEGAL BATTLE CONTINUES

Mississippi Governor Phil Bryant, a Republican, signed the measure into law in April. The state has defended it as a reasonable accommodation intended to protect businesses and individuals seeking to exercise their religious views.

“I look forward to an aggressive appeal,” the governor said in a statement on Friday.

But state Attorney General Jim Hood, a Democrat named as a defendant in the lawsuit, issued a strongly worded statement in which he said he would have to “think long and hard” about whether to spend taxpayer money on an appeal.

“The fact is that the church-going public was duped,” Hood said, noting that Mississippi already has a law to protect those seeking to exercise religious freedoms.

“There will be a case in the future in which the U.S. Supreme Court will better define our religious rights,” he added. “This case, however, is not that vehicle.”

An appeal would bring the case before the U.S. Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, said Roberta Kaplan, an attorney for the Campaign for Southern Equality, one of the plaintiffs.

Critics say the Mississippi law is so broad that it could apply to nearly anyone in a sexual relationship outside of heterosexual marriage, including single mothers. Several legal challenges were filed against various aspects of the law.

Earlier this week, Reeves addressed a provision allowing clerks to recuse themselves from issuing marriage licenses to gay couples based on religious beliefs, saying they had to fulfill their duties under the Supreme Court ruling.

Christian News Network edited this report. 


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  • OldBut YoungMoney

    What the hell man. Why are these governors appointing judges that slap down their own laws ffs.

    • Oboehner

      Probably because the governors don’t really care, they just toss out a bone knowing full well it won’t fly. Then, like the republican party so often does, they can claim they did something.

    • Oldcpu

      Governors do not appoint federal judges!

      • OldBut YoungMoney

        I mean in general. But yeah, Obama appointing these judges. How did my comment get deleted?

  • Steen Goddik

    That’s what is involved in being free in America, that others are also free, and we don’t discriminate against them.

    • ComeOnPeople!

      Sorry but when you force Christians to accept lifestyles or acts which are contrary to the WORD of GOD , you are then discriminating against them for their beliefs. If you have not noticed America is now taking away the rights of Christians to practice what they believe. It’s sad that the small minority of LGBT people & corrupt judges feel compelled to force their ideas into Christianity and if they don’t bend then they are persecuted . America is quickly becoming like other countries who allow every religion under the sun to practice their faith , other than Christianity.

      • Julie Iwanicki

        Well said!

      • Jalapeno

        You don’t have to accept them at all. You don’t have to start a business, and if you choose to start a business involving weddings, you don’t even have to accept what you’re doing.

        You’re still free to believe that it isn’t a “real marriage”, you’re still free to go online and talk about how awful it is that they are getting married, you can still go to church on the weekend and preach about the sin involved. The only thing required is that you do your job.

        • ComeOnPeople!

          NO what is required as that you must go against your own conscience in order to run a business now. Sodomy until very recently was against the law & frowned upon in society and therefore no business would have ever been forced to make a wedding cake or hold a wedding at their venue or any other wedding services for same sex people. Because our society is progressively removing their Christian roots from their courts, businesses and churches NOW face discrimination if they do not conform to the corruption of American values. As to free online to speak against LGBT… many times when I post my posts are deleted by moderators. WHY? Because I still hold to the values and ideas our country was founded upon. As to preaching about sin… more and more laws are being passed that make preaching about sin (transgression of GOD’s laws) Hate speech . As to do our jobs… you mean we are required to do our jobs apart from what makes us who we are which is impossible and was never required of people in America until recently. People in America use to be FREE to PRACTICE their faith in business as well as in private. This is all very new to America. LBGT being in all the TV shows and movies and being taught in the schools is all new to America & being pushed as an agenda to corrupt the society and destroy America. Anytime a society starts policies which destroy the family unit that society falls. Study history and you will see that we are quickly becoming a very different America, one where you will no longer be free to speak your differences or practice religion freely.

          • Jalapeno

            “we NOW face discrimination”

            No..it’s EQUAL treatment. Not discrimination. It’s not like ONLY Christians are expected to follow the law..they’re just the ones wanting exceptions.

            ” As to free online to speak against LGBT… many times when I post my posts are deleted by moderators. WHY?”

            Mine get deleted when I post in favor of LGBT. Must be a conspiracy.

            “People in America use to be FREE to PRACTICE their faith in business as well as in private.”

            You still can..unless your belief requires you to break the law. You’ve never been able to do that.

            Until the last few decades, you’ve been able to turn down whoever you want and discriminate as much as you want, but you should be blaming the black people instead of gays for that law.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            When Christians are not free to conduct their business according to the will of God, they are not free at all. When the government claims its law supersedes God’s Law, that government is a tyranny and illegitimate. This government has now declared war on God.

          • Jalapeno

            No one is free to break the law, even if their religion says they should. Everyone is held to the same standards.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            Yes, God’s standard.

          • Jalapeno

            Sorry, you’re not exempt from the rules. You can choose to follow an extra set of rules but you still need to follow the civil law.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            We must obey God rather than men. We will not disobey God to obey men. We confess Jesus Christ is Lord and Caesar is not. As Blackstone wrote, law that does not conform to God’s Law is invalid.

          • Steen Goddik

            That’s not what the US Constitution says, you traitor against America. Go out and break secular law, and see how much your statement of belief will protect you from prosecution.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            America has betrayed God. The kingdom of God is my nation and to Christ the King is ALL my allegiance.

          • Steen Goddik

            So you are a traitor. Okay then …

          • Steen Goddik

            Another anti-American traitor spitting on the US Constitution.

          • Steen Goddik

            No, fundamentalist Christians have declared war on the US Constitution and America. That makes you a bunch of unpatriotic traitors

          • Steen Goddik

            Nobody stops you from opening a specifically Christian Bakery, catering specifically to Christians. But it still wouldn’t allow you to discriminate against homosexual Christians. You can limit and specialize the product, not the customer.

          • Bob Johnson

            The government declared war on God in 1886, when it erected a colossal graven image to the goddess Libertas in New York Harbor.

          • Steen Goddik

            That’s just hysteria. Now you sound like ISIS blowing up ancient historical sites, because they don’t match their ideas of purity of religion.

            It gives us a very good idea what your version of a theocracy would look like. That makes it a good idea to fight to my death to stop you from getting any power over others.

            I wonder, have you already picked a building to throw homosexuals off?

          • ComeOnPeople!

            Being a different race has nothing to do with transgressing any of God’s instructions (sin). To put laws being established in favor of sinful men on the same level as laws meant to protect all races is simply silly.

          • Jalapeno

            Sorry, your moral system doesn’t get special protections.

            In many places, being gay gets exactly the same protections against discrimination as your race and your religion.

          • lizk

            it will get worse till Jesus comes for His people I just pray that God’s people will stand strong. We are told that the love of many will wax cold as to what is going to come upon the world.

          • Steen Goddik

            You guys are doing a great job of showing hate and bigotry in God’s name. So your love already went to sin, as that gives you sinners to hate.

          • ComeOnPeople!

            Hate is to not speak truth and allow men to follow their own ways to destruction. The word bigot is over used and wrongfully used simply to shut down anyone believes differently then another. The true love of GOD is being willing to die so that others might live. To declare truth if it saves just one from destruction. This battle is wrapping up soon and those who truly love would that none should perish but be reunited with their CREATOR.

          • Steen Goddik

            No, you’re a bigot, your excuses none withstanding. It is very clear that your idea of Christianity is to have an excuse for bigotry, and excuses to hate people and discriminate against them.

          • ComeOnPeople!

            Anyone reading our posts can see that you yourself are the promoter of bigotry & hate… read your words. You are promoting hatred and bigotry towards those who believe in God and HIS ways. You hide behind your a wall of so called tolerance for one point of view & discriminate against any with an opposing view to yours. Man made laws do not dictate what is moral or just. God’s laws are the foundation for morality because HE alone is GOOD, RIGHTEOUS and a JUST JUDGE. You are the true bigot in it’s true definition & yet you are blind to your own prejudices.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            It is God who calls sodomy an abomination and a capital offense. God hates the wicked. Repent of your wickedness.

          • Steen Goddik

            No God doesn’t. You are lying about God, blasphemer.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            I thought you were an atheist.

          • Steen Goddik

            Ah, the bigot is surprised. Me being disgusted with christofascist bigots like you, that says nothing about my religion. Very stupid of you to asdume.

          • ComeOnPeople!

            The WORD of GOD actual instructs those who fear HIM to hate evil, pride, arrogancy, the evil way, and the froward mouth. Yet it also says that GOD takes no pleasure in the destructions of the wicked. HE’s heart is that all men would come back to HIS ways and not be destroyed. HE would that none should perish and desires that all men would repent ( turn back to GOD and HIS ways) . We serve a just GOD who gives all a chance to turn away from the ways of evil which lead to death and turn back to HIS instructions which lead to life.

          • ComeOnPeople!

            Speaking truth is not hate or bigotry, it is actually true love & not a watered down cater to sin version of it. Sin as defined by the bible by the way is… Transgression of God’s law. Therefore if I say a man having sexual relationship with another man is a sin… I am not speaking hate… nor am I bigoted but I am speaking the truth about a sin as defined by the WORD of GOD. If the blind lead the blind they both fall into a ditch. I care enough about others to not lie to them about sin. The CREATOR knows what is right and what is wrong for HIS creation and therefore it is not I who created righteous instructions but the ONE who is righteous. But hey thank you for … Mathew 5:11-12 says… Blessed are you, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceedingly glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets who were before you.
            Wicked men will always hate the truth & those who speak it for it exposes their depravity. Those who love GOD and mankind will never water down the WORD of GOD to pander to the whims and lusts of the flesh.

          • MAC

            You are so right! The country I was born in, these united States of America, no longer exists as it was when I was born. It is no longer a free country. I am NOT allowed to speak freely of my likes or dislikes, disagreements or agreements, without being charged with “hate speech” or labeled a “domestic terror” and all sorts of idiotic garbage.

          • Steen Goddik

            Sense. When you run a business in a city or a town, you do so under a business license. Which requires you to follow the legal codes, incl. antidiscrimination laws.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            I owe obedience to God, as does the state. No law can require me to preform an immoral act, especially when I do not offer that act to others. Christian businesses are not discriminating. We supply Christian services to the general public. We do not sell immoral services. If a homosexual want’s to buy a Christian wedding cake, who is stopping him? We don’t do queer cakes. Create your own business.

            Gay marriage is no more a wedding than a porn party is. We have every right to refrain from participating in your desecration of marriage as we have the right to not print porn.
            If the city or state shuts me down for obeying God, so be it. I will loose nothing and will rejoice in Christ. So what else is new. The dogs have been barking and snapping at us for 2000 years.

          • Steen Goddik

            You do not have the right to discriminate, when your business license prohibits it. And business licenses protect all tax payers, even the ones you don’t like. If you can’t live up to that, if your Hate and Bigotry is that dear and important to you, then you can’t hold a business license.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            Historically, sodomy has been a crime and still should be. Discrimination against evil is a virtue. Tolerance of evil is a vice. Homosexuality is an out and out evil. And then the godless gained power (for a time).

          • Steen Goddik

            Heterosexual also engage in sodomy. And plenty of homosexual do not engage in sodomy. So that argument is ignorant and dumb, not to mention invalidating your argument about homosexual in general. So since sodomy is not equal to homosexuality, the rest of your argument in nonsense.

            That was an incredibly stupid post.

          • ComeOnPeople!

            The one demanding that another person violate their conscience is the one being intolerant of another mans beliefs and ideals. Discrimination laws were made about women in the workforce and about equality for every race… they were never about a persons lifestyle.

          • Steen Goddik

            I never demanded them violating their conscience. I demand they follow the legal codes. They just can’t run a business that discriminates. They can be as much hateful, bigoted scum as they want to be, just not through their business.

          • ComeOnPeople!

            Some believe it or not still believe that they must follow a higher legal code. That code is not one forced but kept out of love for the JUST LAWGIVER. Those who believe that refuse to violate JUST laws for unjust ones. They cannot remove those JUST legal codes from their lives while at work to cater to unjust codes because to do so would be a departure from who they are. A hateful bigot is one who calls other human beings scum simply because they disagree with their views.

          • ComeOnPeople!

            Anti-discrimination laws were put in place not over sinful acts but over women in the work place and people of different races. To see sinful mens acts as being a part of these laws is to write in something that was never there.

          • Steen Goddik

            Irrelevant. They can’t discriminate, regardless of how much you celebrate bigotry and discrimination.

          • Terry Spencer-Hoekstra

            AMEN!

          • namelessghost

            “NO what is required as that you must go against your own conscience in order to run a business now.”

            Let’s say you owned a bakery and a heterosexual couple came in and wanted to order a wedding cake… would you ask them if they engage in sodomy before taking their order?

            ” As to free online to speak against LGBT… many times when I post my posts are deleted by moderators. WHY?”

            Probably because you said something that violated their terms of use.

            “…we are quickly becoming a very different America, one where you will no longer be free to speak your differences or practice religion freely.”

            We are becoming an America where everyone will be free to speak their differences and practice their religion, not just the Christians.

          • ComeOnPeople!

            1. The relationship between a man and his wife isn’t my business and of course I would not ask. I would not ask what to men who walk in together do either … I would sell to anyone without asking personal questions but I would not sell a wedding that was for a union between two people of the same sex because the Creator made man and woman for union . That is my belief and their are hundreds of other bakers that do not share that belief. A tolerant adult would simply get upset and say fine I’ll take my business elsewhere… just like hundreds of people do every day.

            2. Nope … I stick to their guide lines but moderators have their beliefs also and guess tolerance just like with the LGBT is one sided for them also.

            3. Sorry wrong … those who preach tolerance are the least tolerant of those who disagree with their beliefs and practices. They push themselves onto those they know disagree with them and when they get the result they knew they would get, they go crying to an unrighteous court system and then smirk as those people they had so much tolerance for loose everything they worked for … simply because they wouldn’t agree with them or take part in their practices.

          • namelessghost

            1. Relationships between any other persons is not your business. The only relationship that is your business is your own. A tolerant adult would bake a cake for their paying customer because baking cakes is their business.

            2. That’s possible, of course, but it’s much more likely that your posts were in violation of their terms of use.

            3. One sided tolerance? That doesn’t even make sense. You only have to tolerate things you disagree with.

          • ComeOnPeople!

            1. I said such… relationship of another is not my business. An intolerant person would force another to do something that violates their conscience and adults don’t cry and pout when someone disagrees with them … they simply take their business elsewhere.

            2. Nope sorry wrong again. My posts are my proof.

            3. Ok so you believe anything goes. A man marrying another man, woman marrying another woman and that a person born as a man can say he is a woman and a person born a woman can say she is a man… right? Ok I believe a man was Created and designed by GOD and that design is compatible only to be married with a woman . I believe that a man and a woman are what they are regardless of what they think. OK now tolerate that because you disagree with it or oops am I only required to tolerate your view of which I disagree.

          • namelessghost

            1. You may have said such, but you don’t seem to actually believe it. You want to discriminate against others based on their relationships. An intolerant person would force others to live by their religious beliefs instead of respecting them as persons, and then cry that they are being persecuted when others claim their own rights.

            2. Seems the fact that they were deleted is the real proof here.

            3. Yes, I believe in equal rights for all citizens, regardless of their religious views. You know, real tolerance.

          • ComeOnPeople!

            1.No intolerance is forcing someone against their belief to agree with another persons beliefs or actions.

            2. Sorry wrong again anyone can flag a post and have it deleted simply because they don’t like what was said. Intolerant people & people who don’t care about anyone else opinions but their own do it all the time.

            3. Yet you are intolerant of my religious views. That’s real tolerance for all those who promote anything and everything is ok.

          • namelessghost

            1. No one is forcing you to agree with anything.

            2. Anyone can flag a post but that doesn’t mean it will be deleted.

            3. No, I’m not. I tolerate your religious views. I don’t agree with them and I don’t have to, but I do tolerate them. Oh, and I don’t promote “anything and everything is ok.”

        • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

          No, this is about compelling Christians to violate their conscience with the sole reason that the radical left hates God and Christians. The homosexuals can open their own bakeries to celebrate their abominations and the abortionists their own pharmacies to murder their children.
          “The fool has said in his heart, ‘there is no God’.”

          • Jalapeno

            Yeah, it’s not like anyone else is expected to follow the law.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            The Law comes from God, not man.

          • Jalapeno

            Then you better make extra sure to obey the civil laws, eh?

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            Chili peppers are incapable of understanding the Word of God.

          • Jalapeno

            Sure, and you’d tell me I was wrong anyways. It’s a non issue.

            Youre still expected to follow the civil laws. If you want to be able to do what you want I’m pretty sure there are some anarchist countries in Africa.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            You are the anarchist, denying the Law of God. Just try to enforce your godless laws on Christians. Go ahead, try to make us bow down to your perversions. We will not bend. We will not bow. Jesus Christ is Lord. And His Word is Law.
            You all are rebels against your Creator and will soon find yourselves in chains before His Judgment Seat.

          • Jalapeno

            .. Did you think Christians were exempt from the law?

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            Christians, as all people, are always under obligation to obey God. Those who obey God’s Law do you no wrong. We obey all that is not contrary to God’s Word. We do not murder. We do not steal. We do not commit adultery. We do not bear false witness. We do not covet what belongs to our neighbor. And we do not worship false gods.
            If you imprison or murder us for obeying God, so be it. We WILL obey God rather than man.

          • Jalapeno

            Okay. Good. At least you’ll accept that you don’t get to be a part of civil society if you don’t grow up and act the part.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            Who gave you permission to be part of “civil society”? You are the enemy of civil society. People who will not submit to God’s Law ought to be excluded from society.

          • Jalapeno

            I follow laws and do what’s expected of me without whining.

            You can’t say the same.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            You would have made a good NAZI.

          • Jalapeno

            Oh? Because I understand that we have laws?

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            No, because law that is not based on revealed Law (God’s Law) has no standard of right or wrong. It is what is called “positive law” -arbitrary. It is human will enforced by the power of the state, whether that law is the will of the majority or the will of one. There is absolutely no difference between the NAZI laws that created the Holocaust and the arbitrary laws of abortion and homosexual marriage. And there is no objective standard to judge the rightness of laws by apart from God’ revealed Law. You are left with Mao’s “Truth comes out of the barrel of a gun.”
            Think on that for a while.
            Then consider that all God’s Commandments are applications of “Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength” and “Love your neighbor as yourself”. Then consider what society you would want your children to live in: godless or Christian?
            You might also consider that those officials and institutions who do not abide in the enumerated powers of the Constitution are subverters of that Constitution and the very freedoms you cherish.

          • Jalapeno

            ” There is absolutely no difference between the NAZI laws that created the Holocaust and the arbitrary laws of abortion and homosexual marriage

            Cute.

            Yup. You’re right..a Theocracy is SO much better than a constitutional republic.

            “Then consider what society you would want your children to live in: godless or Christian?”

            SECULAR. I want my children to live in a SECULAR society.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            Your children will not last long in such a society. The Constitution is a dead letter. 60,000,000 children have already been butchered in this land. This will not long be limited to those who are not yet born. Even now euthanasia is a common practice in nursing home across this nation. A secular society can “lawfully” terminate you or your children whenever it wants, just as the Nazis did, Stalin did, Mao did and Pol Pot did, all secular societies.

          • Jalapeno

            “The Constitution is a dead letter.”

            Um..you’re the one who thinks that we shouldn’t have any civil laws, you’re the one who wants a theocracy?

            Now you want a proper society?

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            You do err. Civil laws must be proper applications of God’s Law. I suggest you read Francis Schaeffer’s “How Shall We then Live”. Secularism is only a basis for chaos and death. History proves that.

          • Jalapeno

            I know you think you’re smarter than the people who founded this country, but it was set up in a secular manner.

            Sorry, no matter how much you wish and hope…this isn’t a theocracy, and no one is obligated to pay your religion any dues.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            The States that ratified the Constitution were not secular states. And they never had a view of society anything like yours.
            And you will be obliged to bow your knees and confess Jesus Christ is Lord by God Himself.
            BTW, it’s always been a theocracy. You’re just blind to the kingdom of God.

          • Jalapeno

            No..this country has been secular from the start. Even the briefest of glances at the first amendment could show you that. Or..listen to Thomas Jefferson..

            “Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.”

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            You are simply ignorant of history. You probably went to a public school.
            A letter to the Danberry Baptists from Jefferson was to assure them that he did not intend to establish a church, a state denomination at the Federal level. several of the state had an established church and the Constitution did not change that. The Constitution makes no rational sense outside the Christian worldview.

          • Jalapeno

            “You probably went to a public school.”

            Okay. Enjoy your immaturity.

            Maybe you can go find a theocracy to live in, someplace where people buy into your idiotic attempts at insulting people.

            “The Constitution makes no rational sense outside the Christian worldview.”

            Sure..if you don’t bother to think about it.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            The Puritans established a theonomy in New England and it was far, far better than this present “nation”. The king of England abolished their charter to establish his rule over their colonies. Even when Christians move into the wilderness to live in peace and godliness, the wicked will not leave us alone.
            Nevertheless, Jesus Christ has promised to return, clean house and setup an everlasting theocracy where sinners will not be welcome.

          • Jalapeno

            Okay, cool.

            Maybe you can go find a theocracy to live in if you don’t like republics.

            In the meantime, you should learn what society you DO live in.

          • Steen Goddik

            In the meanwhike, you refuse to follow the rules of this society, traitor. So why are you here?

          • Steen Goddik

            You spit on the US Constitution, so what do you care about it. Other than to lie about it.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “The Constitution makes no rational sense outside the Christian worldview”

            Bull. I’m an atheist and it makes perfect sense to me.

          • Steen Goddik

            The US Constitution is a secular document. And it specifically prohibits theocracy. Stephen, you are bearing false witness. You are outright lying. Some pathetic Christian you are turning out to be. You are the reason so many people leave Christianity. They can stand the self-righteous lies and hypocricy.

          • Steen Goddik

            Theocratic laws have caused plenty of chaos and death. The Spanish Inquisition and ISIS have proved that. And obviously, those are the models you prefer. ISIS hates the US Constitution just like you do. You are very much alike.

          • Steen Goddik

            Yes, you are spitting on the US Constitution. That makes you an anti-American traitor

          • Steen Goddik

            Ah, Goodwin’s Law. You lose.

          • Steen Goddik

            Nah, hate-mongering bias are the enemy of society, seeding strife and hate, rather than unity. So that’s another of your lies. You sure lie a lot. I read somewhere that that is a sin. Where was that? Oh yes, now I remember. Sad, that you never read the Bible, SA.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            A person that calls itself (gender neutral pronoun) Jalapeno is hardly in a place to tell a person to grow up, especially when that person’s behavior is lawless and godless. Your idea of civil society is Mao’s China.

          • Jalapeno

            Wow, you’re having to stoop pretty low.

            Let’s get this straight.. Anyone who doesn’t want this country to be a theocracy effectively wants “Mao’s China”.

          • Steen Goddik

            That’s an ignorant remark. You are the one advocating against the legal code. That makes you the anarchist.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            I understand neither Anthony Kiedis nor Flea are Christians, so maybe you’re right, after all….

          • Steen Goddik

            So when the law stops your bigotry and you speak against it, then you speak against God?

            Well, thanks for clarifying that.

        • Terry Spencer-Hoekstra

          My husband is a Pastor in America but God’s law is higher. He will NEVER marry anyone except a heterosexual male and a heterosexual woman. NEVER! It doesn’t matter what the law of the United States is. Right always trumps wrong no matter the consequences.

          • Jalapeno

            “He will NEVER marry anyone except a heterosexual male and a heterosexual woman”

            Great. He’s protected from it anyways.

            The whole prosecution complex thing doesn’t apply.

          • Terry Spencer-Hoekstra

            Wait a while. It will.

          • Jalapeno

            You’re basing that on what, exactly?

      • JodyLynn Harris

        God’s law above man’s every time. Stand strong, Christians. We read our Bibles… We know this (and much worse) is coming. Stay in prayer and let not your frustrations lead you into sin.

        • ComeOnPeople!

          Amen! God’s ways are higher and I will not transgress HIS law to comply with what man says is right or wrong.

          • lizk

            Yes, we also have to put on the whole armor of God.

          • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

            Amen.

        • Steen Goddik

          Man’s law applies outside of Church.

        • Steen Goddik

          In the world outside of Church, secular law applies. Try to violate secular law and say it is God’s will,and see what happens. Your claim is delusional.

        • BigHobbit

          Christians are standing strong. Many are ordaining gay clergy and celebrating same sex marriage, while standing strongly against attempts by OTHER Christians to violate their religious freedom to do so.

        • Jannet

          Do you really read your bible?

          Read Matthew 22:
          36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

          37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

          verse 40 tells you that all laws follow from these two foundational commandments. Now try to explain to me how homosexuality violates these two commandments. And if it doesn’t violate these two commandments, it can not be a sin at all (according to verse 40).

          Bearing false witness made it to the famous ten…

        • David Cromie

          The US is not a theocracy, no matter how much christers try to make it so.

          • Jeff O

            How much nonsense can christers dream up in support of their superstitious delusions?
            ———————————————————-
            It is what the bible really teaches. The bible also tells us the purpose of our life and how to live it

          • David Cromie

            You are right, it is the so-called ‘bible’ which is responsible for the inculcation of nonsense in the credulous and superstitious minds of believers! How do you define the purpose of your life?

          • Jeff O

            Maybe you can sight this superstitions that you claim the bible teaches, and maybe we can discus that.

            You will know it[purpose of your life] when you ask the one who created you.

          • David Cromie

            I have had sight of the so-called ‘bible’ many times as I read it in the past. I refer to the superstition that there exists a supposed supernatural sky fairy in charge of the cosmos, when there is no irrefutable evidence to back up this assertion, either in the so-called ‘bible’ itself, or from avowed ‘believers’.

          • Jeff O

            “there is no irrefutable evidence to back up this assertion, either in the so-called bible itself or from avowed believers.”

            Let us see what the Bible says about that.

            Romans 1:20
            20 For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable.

            Question Mr. David, How big is the Universe? How do you think it came to be?

            Can you consider your body a complex entity? How do you think it came to be?

          • David Cromie

            I asked you for irrefutable evidence of the truth of your assertions. Quoting the so-called ‘bible’ proves nothing, since that is fallacious circular argument, and begs the question. In other words, the so-called ‘bible’ cannot be used to validate itself.

            What has the size/origin of the universe, or complexity, got to do with the topic?

          • Jeff O

            The Bible has validated itself and it speaks the Truth,

            When mentioning something about Science, the Bible is indeed accurate, and have the answers ahead of its time.

            Would you think that a mere ancient man with no technological advances can view the Universe? No, that is why God who is the creator told him to write such words.

            For example:

            The universe had a beginning. (Genesis 1:1)

            The universe is governed day-to-day by rational natural laws, not by the whims of deities. (Job 38:33; Jeremiah 33:25)

            The earth is suspended in empty space. (Job 26:7)

            Rivers and springs are fed by water that has evaporated from the oceans and other sources and then has fallen back to earth as rain, snow, or hail. (Job 36:27, 28; Ecclesiastes 1:7; Isaiah 55:10; Amos 9:6)

            The mountains rise and fall, and today’s mountains were once under the ocean. (Psalm 104:6, 8)

            Sanitary practices protect health. The Law given to the nation of Israel included regulations for washing after touching a dead body, quarantining those with infectious disease, and disposing of human waste safely. (Leviticus 11:28; 13:1-5; Deuteronomy 23:13)

            ———————————————————————————
            I am asking the size/origin of the universe or complexity so that I can ask you this question.

            Is anyone have the answer to this? Did an organization or individual claim that they have the accurate answer to such question why, how, what?

            No, only the bible has the answers to such and gives the answer that no other can provide.

          • David Cromie

            More confirmation bias. and fallacious circular argument. The so-called ‘bible’ is not a science textbook, just because some rather obvious, ancient, folkloric advice is contained in it.

            You might as well claim that the fact that putting one’s hand in a fire causes painful burns, was first discovered by biblical scribes inspired by a supposed ‘holy ghost’!

      • Theodore Fenton

        The fact that the majority of Christian business owners and Christian government workers have no problem treating gay couples the same as straight couples is proof that doing so is not a violation of any so-called “Christian beliefs.” In fact, the so-called Christians who have demanded the right to discriminate against gay couples can be counted on the fingers of one hand.

        • MAC

          It is called practicing their Christian faith as they understand it. If there are “Christians” that do not object to doing business with sodomites that is between their decision and both will answer to God as to who is right –NOT the govt or sodomites forcing their self on another. Let the sodomite go to a business that is willing to do business with them. Baking a cake with sodomy indications is going against ones faith in “participating”. Come in and buy a dozen cookies is not “participating” in their actions.

          • Theodore Fenton

            A few gay couples have been targeted by so-called “Christian” businesses seeking notoriety and/or monetary reward. But the majority of normal Christian businesses have no problem treating gay couples the same as straight couples.

            If I buy a dozen cookies for my husband to celebrate our one-year wedding anniversary, is that “participating”?

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            Christian businesses have been targeted by LQBTQ radicals determined to destroy them. Where are the Christian businesses that refused service that was not inconsistent with their faith? The simple photographic portrait or generic cake? It is the Queer culture warriors that seek to force Christians to join in celebration of the homosexual abomination. They have plenty of businesses eager to take their money but they deliberately target Christians. Its the gays that are the haters and bigots. They simply hate God and live their lives of rebellion consistent with that hatred.

          • Stephen W.

            How many of these so-called “Christian” businesses are willing to place signage in their shop windows to warn the unsuspecting public that they do not cater to same-sex wedding ceremonies?

            No one is being forced to be a wedding cake baker, or a wedding photographer, or a florist. There are plenty of other occupations that might be better suited to such religious fundamentalists.

          • Steen Goddik

            What a bunch of lies. The bakeries that were sued were not Christian bakeries. They were general bakeries.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            I don;t know how to tell you, but if a business in not a corporation or a partnership, then the business is the owner.

          • Steen Goddik

            And if they have already limited their products to specifically christian wedding cakes, then they have that right to limit the product. They don’t have the right to limit who the customer is.

            That aside, the businesses getting in trouble have not limited themselves to solely christian cakes, and as such, they have absolutely no leg to stand on anyway.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            So, you agree they have the right not to bake cakes that celebrate “gay marriage” or immorality. Did these bakers refuse to sell generic cakes?

          • http://www.amazon.com/Justin-Hamlin/e/B00CCBRLIE/ref=dp_byline_cont_ebooks_1 Citizen Justin

            Not likely! Most US citizens are Christian; with any business in the USA there’s approximately an 80% chance a Christian owns it. Talk of targeting Christians in particular is nonsense.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            Less than 10% of Americans are Christians, possibly less than 5%. If 80% were Christians this would be a Christian nation with Christians Laws, Christian schools, Christian media and Christian government and sodomy would still be punished and Obama would never have been elected.

          • David Cromie

            I see no suggestion that 80% of Americans are christers. Please point out where, this claim was made. You are probably right when you state that less than 10% of Americans are practising christers. But that does not stop them from hankering after a theocratic America, by any subterfuge possible. You also paint a very accurate picture of fundamentalist christers – bigots, and racists!

          • Steen Goddik

            When you want a business license, you have to follow established law. It is that simple.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            What if the law says all homosexuals must wear a pink triangle and be sent to concentration camps?

          • Steen Goddik

            Then that law would be unconstitutional and shut down by the US Supreme Court. You don’t know much about Constitutional Law, do you?

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            More than you or the “Supreme Court” knows.

          • Steen Goddik

            Nope. Your ignorance of the US Constitution is astonishing.

        • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

          “Christians” that approve of Homosexuality and same-sex “marriage” or are indifferent to it are not Christians at all. Christians believe the Word of God and set His Commandments and will above their own opinions and desires.

          • Theodore Fenton

            True Christians work for churches or religious organizations. They don’t own and operate for-profit businesses.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            That is sarcasm or an asinine comment. For a true Christian all of life is to be lived for the glory of God, whether as a preacher or a garbage man. For-profit is a stupid American concept.

          • Stephen W.

            You’ll just have to.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            I don’t think there is a man that strong. How exactly will you compel me?

          • Stephen W.

            No one is forcing you to imprint anything on Bibles. There are plenty of other occupations for which a religious fundamentalist such as yourself might be better suited.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            For 2000 years, we have been persecuted, tortured, fed to lions and burned at the stake. I don’t think a handful of degenerates that can’t even understand the natural and proper purpose of their bodies will be able to force us to do anything.
            We have seen you parading through the streets. We are not afraid. We only fear God. And we will not yield to the haters of God.

          • Stephen W.

            You can’t have your cake and eat it, too. Either operate a business that caters to the public at large OR form a private club and sell to members only. Fundamentalist Christians are well-known for their deceit and trickery. You’ll find a way to skirt the law. You always have.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            How about you opening a bakery catering to queers. We wont object.

          • Stephen W.

            There are already plenty of gay-owned bakeries, and they have never discriminated against fundamentalist Christians.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            And why would we want to purchase from those bakeries? And why exactly do gays want to purchase gay wedding cakes from Christian bakers except with the intent to harass and sue?
            And you are you prowling a Christian web site except to harass?

          • Stephen W.

            Plenty of Christian families have purchased from gay-family-owned bakeries. Not once have I ever seen a bakery with signage identifying the business as a “Christian” bakery … or even a gay bakery.

          • Steen Goddik

            Can you show me a “Christian Bakery” that has been sued. The ones who got in trouble are general bakeries.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            And why can’t a Christian supply Christian wedding services (marriage is a 6000 year old Institution created by God) to the public at large? Same sex “marriage” is an abomination established by a corrupt court 1 year ago. And why can’t a Christian Photographer not contract to photograph Christian marriages only? If that is the service they choose to offer?
            You all are not interested in freedom, you are interested in squashing freedom and Christians.

          • Stephen W.

            They can if they form a members-only club, but not a business serving the public at large.

          • Steen Goddik

            Lock you up in jail when you violate the US law, traitor.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            Christians were in America long before you. We came here to live as Christians in peace. You don’t belong here.

          • Steen Goddik

            Long before me?
            And yes, the US Constitution specifically prohibits a state establishment and endorsement of a religion. So you theocratic are nothing but a bunch of traitors

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            The fool has said in his heart, ‘there is no God.’

          • TheKingOfRhye

            There’s quite a lot of atheists that don’t even say that, you know.

          • Steen Goddik

            And? The issue here is the US Constitution, not the existence of God.

          • David Cromie

            But a deluded christer idiot says there is!

          • http://www.amazon.com/Justin-Hamlin/e/B00CCBRLIE/ref=dp_byline_cont_ebooks_1 Citizen Justin

            “Christians were in America long before you.”
            Long before who? Non-Christians? No, the Native Americans were there before the Christians. Gays? No, some of the Native Americans were gay, even transsexual.

          • Jannet

            Do you really read the gospel?

            Read Matthew 22:

            36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

            37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

            verse 40 tells you that all laws follow from these two foundational commandments. Now try to explain to me how homosexuality violates these two commandments. And if it doesn’t violate these two commandments, it can not be a sin at all (according to verse 40).

            Bearing false witness made it to the famous ten…

          • David Cromie

            This is known as the ‘No true Scotsman’ fallacy!

          • GibbyD

            completely different and thus it is a fallacy to use the ” no true Scotsman fallacy” when it comes to describing what a genuine believer is vs. one that only fakes it. Jesus said, ” Ye MUST be born again” ( John 3:3; 1Peter 1:23)KJB. As long as you are dead spiritually you will never understand.

          • David Cromie

            Wrong again!

          • GibbyD

            I disagree

      • Steen Goddik

        Utter nonsense. You can practice your faith. You just can’t discriminate against others. You are not crying over religious persecution. You are crying over the law against your bigotry (blasphemously masked as religion).

      • Steen Goddik

        You Don’t Have To Accept anything. Nobody can force you to be a homosexual. But you just can’t discriminate against homosexuals, women, Chinese, Republicans or other groups.

        • ComeOnPeople!

          Speaking the truth about what the CREATOR says is sin is simply that speaking the truth. A man should never have to violate his conscience in order to serve another man. Men can simply agree to disagree as they have always done. This new ideology is that if it is made into law well then it is truth. Men’s laws do not change GOD’s laws and GOD instructs HIS people to not partake of another mans sins. Christian businesses just like non-christian are an expression of what they believe and how they conduct themselves in those businesses shows their loyalty to GOD or to the world.

          • Steen Goddik

            And their business license says to not discriminate against people, so your argument is meaningless.

      • BigHobbit

        Nobody is forced to accept anything. If you CHOOSE a job working for the Govt, then you have to do what the Govt job requires. If that conflicts with your faith, pick another job.
        No one is FORCED to sell cakes or flowers to gay people, because no one is FORCED to sell cakes or flowers, at all. If you CHOOSE to sell cakes or flowers in public, you CHOOSE to be subject to the rules and regulations of commerce.

      • David Cromie

        No one is forcing you to be a homosexual, and it would be impossible to become one since homosexuals are born as such, in the same way as heterosexuals and bisexuals, your supposed ‘god’ notwithstanding. As for other religions, they too are subject to the same laws of the land as everyone else, and that includes Muslims.

    • timetorun

      SG: For the last 30 years there is a growing war of worldviews between those who believe that anything goes as opposed to those that believe that there are God orchestrated limits to behaviour. American leaders once believed in clearly defined limits when we followed God’s laws in our written code and constitutions. that has changed for now. true freedom is not unlimited behaviour–there is no such thing as unlimited freedom. the reason America is in the place it is today is that you and others forgot that freedom and its blessings alone comes from God and He can and will take that away as needed to teach us a lesson. Read Isaiah 26.9

      • TheKingOfRhye

        “…those who believe that anything goes as opposed to those that believe that there are God orchestrated limits to behaviour.”

        That’s just a false dichotomy right there. Plenty of people who don’t believe in a god DO believe there are “limits to behaviour” and such.

        Let me guess, next you’ll tell me that there is no morality without God telling you what’s right and what’s wrong, right?

        • timetorun

          ALL laws are based on some kind of moral framework. the whole purpose of law is to set up a standard to punish behaviour outside of the norm as well as to provide guidance to what is good and what is unacceptable. Yes, all good and fair law comes from God and his laws because its based on His holiness —thats what the bible says, not my opinion. you can either have anarchy (no law), men’s laws or God’s laws—and it seems like based on your comments, you have already decided which ones you are going to follow. you will stand before the Lord after you die and will need to answer for your decision. And for Christians, we believe that Christ fulfilled the law completely, took our sin on the cross and has now written the laws of God on believers hearts so that we want to please Him. Hope you will consider that King.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “ALL laws are based on some kind of moral framework.”

            So one CAN have morality without God, is that what you’re saying? That’s what I keep trying to say…I mean, maybe it’s not exactly what you’re saying, but I keep seeing Christians make the argument that without the Bible, without God, you can’t have morality, there’s no wrong and no right, anything goes, etc. I always say to that, do you really need the Bible to tell you something like murder or rape is wrong? It makes me shudder to think what would happen if somehow the people that say that lose their faith. Again, though, maybe that’s not what you’re saying exactly, so sorry if I’m just going off on a rant for no reason…

            “the whole purpose of
            law is to set up a standard to punish behaviour outside of the norm as
            well as to provide guidance to what is good and what is unacceptable.”

            Yeah, okay, not arguing with any of that….except I’m not that sure about “punishing behavior outside the norm.” That’s a big thing with you guys, the “norm”, “normal/abnormal”, etc, it seems…especially when we’re talking about anything LGBT-related. “Gays are bad, they’re not normal!” or words to that effect. Like just being “normal” is some great thing to strive for…..sorry, I just can’t agree with that.

          • timetorun

            King, I am of the opinion that “morality” = the enforcement of public law…laws creates “morality”, and move society to adapt cultural morés of acceptable behaviour, dress, expressions, etc. The nazis had laws too and and so do the muslims (re. sharia law)—that is their “morality” that they are willing to kill infidels over—[the west needs to overwhelmingly say no to sharia law for it sets up two systems of law which incompatable with each other—which they will seek eventually to supercede our western law because they believe western Christian based law is evil]. Communists dont have laws perse, they live by lawlessness and the power of force and murder to get their way. You can abide by God’s laws which trump men’s laws, nazi laws or shariah laws. Yes, my belief is that true “normal” is how God defines behaviour that is good in His eyes—when it departs from that, its falling short of his standards—that the bible calls “sin”. This is what America, in general, used to follow. Someday, it might again. Thats what i believe anyway.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “the west needs to overwhelmingly say no to sharia law for it sets up two systems of law which incompatable with each other”

            Well, I’ll agree with that much, sharia law would be incompatible with US law….and I’ll add, laws based on the Bible would be, too. After all, only two (or three depending on how you look at it) of the Ten Commandments have any parallels in current laws….the other ones would be pretty much unenforceable and/or unconstitutional.

            What do communists have to do with anything, though? Trust me, I am no communist, not even a socialist.

          • timetorun

            communism is still very much alive and being taught in most of our universities by far leftists professors who dont give a hoot about the constitution and freedoms and wealth generation provided by capitalism—they want collectivism, the destruction of the elite, the growth of central government over all of life, the removal of property rights, and the destruction of the church.

          • Steen Goddik

            The Christians pushing for theocratic laws are no different than those pushing for Shari’a law

          • timetorun

            SG

            Really, really? Lets see, who do you rather want making policy in Washington DC—radical koran following Muslims or fundamental Christians whose first prinicipal that they follow is to “love your neighbor as yourself”? You are in a dream world thinking that they are the same.

            Personally i dont think you have any worries about Christian theocracy being established in America becasue this country is so far gone in rejecting His laws, that it would take half the country being destroyed to bring this country to its knees in repentance. But on the other hand you will get a theocracy when Islam takes over brick by brick…you can either have God’s grace and laws that are good or you WILL have tyranny in the form of either a boot of communism/globalism taking completely over or you WILL have Islam taking over. “Americanism” as it stands now is weak, and is ready for a complete takeover.

            Heres a good quote for you dreamers out there:
            “Man will ultimately be governed by God or by tyrants.”
            Benjamin Franklin

            and that being spoken by a deist…

          • Steen Goddik

            Fundamentalist, extremist Christians are about the same as fundamentalist, extremist Myslims. We have a US Constitution prohibiting Shari’a of both the Muslim and Christian variety.

          • timetorun

            SG, like Franklin said, “Man will ultimately be governed by God or by tyrants.” Consider that a deist says this, not a Christian. I believe his words will be true in respect to the USA. secularists can claim they will escape both extremes..but I am certain its either the country needs to turn back to God or tyranny will be our destiny. you certainly can reject God’s theocracy over yourself—thats your choice. As for America becoming a country of God’s laws again, it never was a complete theocracy. What is in the future remains to be seen. Ultimately Jesus Christ will rule and reign over the entire world. I would encourage you to bend the knee now while his HIs special time of grace continues.

          • Steen Goddik

            Irrelevant. The US Constitution prohibits a theocracy. It gives all religions equal footing under the secular law. So the only way you can get your theocracy is, to violate the US Constitution.

            That makes you an anti-American traitor.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “it never was a complete theocracy”

            It never was an INcomplete theocracy.

        • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

          You make an error here. Atheists who “do believe there are limits to behavior” believe that based on the same reasons as those who don’t. Both choose their own limits, both claim autonomy, both deny God’s authority.
          Without God the morality of Hitler, Stalin and Mao is the same as any other.

      • Steen Goddik

        Your anti-American spitting on the US Constitution is duly noted.

  • Mellow Fellow

    Calling somebody out for their discrimination is not bigotry. Never be a spectator of unfairness or stupidity. Seek out argument and disputation for their own sake; the grave will supply plenty of time for silence.

  • Chris Peterson

    This was way past not wanting to be involved in a wedding ceremony.

    Whoever wrote this doesn’t even know what the bill said or why it was rejected by federal law in court.

    ANYONE would have been able to deny service to ANYONE on the grounds of religion.

    A white man could deny service to black,Christian touslim,Muslim to Christian,jew to gentile,Latino to white,white to lation and yes straight to gay and gay to straight.

    A fireman could refuse to put out a fire,a doctor could refuse to do surgery ect.

    This so called protections bill would have put our country in line to be the next theocracy.

    • GibbyD

      No , that is not what it means.

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    USA is persecuting the people by not allowing the truth and the freedom of conscience and purity. Same-sex ceremonies are like Satanic rituals to Christians. May God deal with the Sodomic America.

    • Steen Goddik

      If you don’t want to interact with the world, then don’t have a business that interacts with the world.

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        America is supposed to spread the Christian religion and the God-given liberty. America must reverse its course. You need Jesus Christ for salvation.

        • Steen Goddik

          America is not supposed to do any such thing. The US Constitution directly prohibits it, your treasonous anti-Americanism none withstanding

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are wrong. Mayflower Compact and Declaration of Independence and national anthems declare USA as a Christian nation.

          • Steen Goddik

            Doesn’t matter. They are not law. The US Constitution is. And any American rejecting the US Constitution is a traitor.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The Constitution grants all Americans to live out the Holy Bible. Atheistic and Sodomic authorities and people are the law-breakers.

          • Steen Goddik

            And now, you are lying about the US Constitution as well. Haters, using God as an excuse, you types sure lie a lot.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Read Magna Carta, Mayflower Compact, your independence documents, and your national anthems. USA is a theocracy. America submits to God alone and to no one else. Secularism only has childlessness and Sodomy.

    • BigHobbit

      It take a major delusion to twist a law saying treat all customers equally, to I am being persecuted.
      Really? Don’t be such a drama queen.

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        Same-sex “marriage” is not marriage but living in sin. Secular West is being bored from having a full stomach for the longest time, and that’s why they amuse themselves by pushing a filthy falsehood and making the Biblical Christians suffer this time instead of bullying the colored people. The West places colored people in the same category with sexually immoral people and rant equality, but that’s the worst kind of racism since sin has no equality with anything.

        • BigHobbit

          You have a religious idea that same sex marriage is a sin. Fine. Don’t get same sex married.
          What you do not have is a way to establish your religious views as a law in constitutional republic where the constitution prohibits the establishment of religion.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            God has decreed in His Word that homosexuality is sin; it is the truth. Homosexuality makes humans lust over anyone and anything in existence; it’s a sexual chaos. The Westerners are suffering from boredom and that’s why you guys are pushing same-sex “marriage,” a non-existent entity, this century. It’s the non-existent garment that the naked king boasts of. No submission to the bored perv rich of the West. Constitution meant no dominance by any particular denomination. Founding Fathers expected all Americans to be Christian moral. The nations’ national and independence document states that America submits to God alone. Liberals are the law-breakers by prohibiting the freedom of conscience. Liberty in the Western civilization including the USA was established for any humans to serve God according to His Word. No Christianity = No truth or any freedom. Sin is slavery. Jesus gives freedom. He is the Truth.

          • BigHobbit

            In America, we have freedom of religion. You get to believe and worship according to YOUR beliefs. OTHERS get to believe and worship according to THEIR beliefs.
            We do not make YOUR beliefs into laws that apply to them, and we do not make THEIR beliefs into laws that apply to you.
            THAT is what the first amendment does.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are wrong. Today in America, people are forced to endure villains’ blasphemies and are forced to pay for national infanticide( abortion) and endorse sexual depravity( homosexuality, transgenderism, etc) AGAINST God’s Word and AGAINST one’s own clear conscience. America lost sanity, civility, freedom, and lawfulness by losing Christianity. You need Christianity for the truth, human rights, equality, and freedom. The Western Civilization including the USA has nothing noble apart from the Holy Bible. Your sense of fairness is exclusively from Christianity, too. You don’t read the Holy Bible and that’s why you have no idea where the Christian British thinkers and the American Founding Fathers stole all the noble ideas. The Westerners would have been just another case of illiterate savages if they did not have Christianity. You guys need Christianity to stay civilized. Secularism is immorality.

          • BigHobbit

            Freedom of religion means freedom from being able to choose what to believe and where to worship. No one is required to believe as YOU do, to worship as YOU do. You can practice your religion, but you do not get to practice your religion on others.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Post-christian Western culture forces people to endure blasphemies and support heinous sexual depravity and funding of infanticide. That’s what is tyrannical about today’s secular West. Freedom is provided to all only by the Judeo-Christian values. All other ideologies oppress humans.

          • BigHobbit

            Perhaps the religious pluralism and freedoms of the first world countries are not for you. You sound like you would be happier in a theocracy, where other religionside and beliefs wouldn’t irritate you so much.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            USA is a Christian theocracy, like most of white men’s nations which many Earthlings so desire to live. UK and USA’s national and founding documents and anthems declare that they submit only to the God of the Holy Bible. All Westerners must stop blaspheming against Christianity. It is a conduct of repaying the good with evil. Enough of evil follies from boredom. The Westerners need Jesus for salvation like all others do.

          • BigHobbit

            The first amendment prohibits the establishment of any theocracy.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            US Constitution is based upon Moses’ Ten Commandments. The creators of the US Constitution never imagined the existence of evil Ameicans who’d attack Christianity on the American Soil. Non-christian meant savage to all of then-Americans and all of then-Europeans including the Russians. It still is today. The West has no moral standard apart from the Holy Bible.

          • BigHobbit

            The first amendment proves your statement false. The writings of the framers clearly show that they drew from many sources, taking some things, importantly leaving things out (like a national religion.)
            The most significant contributions came from enlightenment principles, and ultimately, the magna carta.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Magna Carta was created by the devout Christian British. Yes, read the text. Read also Mayflower Compact and Declaration of Independence and national anthems and monuments. White people knew no other but only the one true God of the Holy Bible for 1,000-2,000 years. That set apart the Christian West and the rest permanently. You guys were average illiterate savages until the Church educated you to be civilized. Enlightenment made some Europeans pervs; real eternal contribution is from the Protestant Reformation because that made the Westerners seekers of God’s truth and all objective truth. They were almost a different species from the rest of humans. Truth counts.

          • BigHobbit

            You do not square your “truth” with the actual constitution, with the first amendment. The prohibition against the establishment of a religion. THAT did NOT come from scripture.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Roman Catholic Church of the Reformation era has prohibited the Europeans reading the Holy Scripture. It is the white Christian Europeans who wanted freedom for living out the Holy Scripture. American Founding Fathers just mimicked the European Reformers. You should study history. Human history did not start 230 years ago. Freedom was absolutely necessary among mankind for spreading the Biblical Christianity everywhere. White men got the idea of the freedom of conscience exclusively from the Holy Scripture. In all other worlds which is Bible-less, mankind did not know such concept existed, even, because they did not need it. With the existence of the Holy Bible, suddenly every world becomes in need of religious freedom, because tyrants hate educated slaves. The idea that the government must the serve the people instead of dominate the people is from the Holy Bible, to start with. The West has nothing much like the rest of the planet apart from the Holy Bible.

          • BigHobbit

            Still have not reconciled the first amendment prohibition on the establishment of a religion with your assertion that we are a “Christian” nation. Obviously we eschew a religious basis for govt with that prohibition.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Constitution = classroom rules. Declaration of Independence = the purpose of America. National anthems = the heart of America. US Constitution prohibits the breaking of the Christian conscience anyway. Biblical Christians must never be violated; it’s the basis of all human rights and constitutions.

          • BigHobbit

            That doesn’t square with the many comments made by the framers that America was NOT a “Christian” nation. With the existence of the Jefferson bible, with every bit of the supernatural removed, with just the philosophy and ethics remaining.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Jefferson stole ideas from the Holy Bible and the Christian European thinkers. You Americans must acknowledge stealing ideas from the Christian Europe. You don’t read the Holy Bible so you never know anything about the Origin both in the science field and the social studies field.

          • BigHobbit

            The framers “stole” many ideas from many sources. So what?
            They took the things that made sense, and ignored the parts that did not, the non-sense. Just like the Jefferson bible.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Jefferson is nothing. Most Earthlings don’t know Jefferson, but most of Earthlings know Moses and 2/3 of mankind adhere him. USA is temporary but the Word of God is forever. ( Read Isaiah ch.40) American fathers believed all of the Holy Bible as the inspired Word of God. Today’s secular Westerners do not read the Word of God, and that’s why they blaspheme against Christianity and treat unwanted children and dying people as sub-humans and push abnormal sexuality into the world.

          • BigHobbit

            You are still attempting to prove scripture by quoting scripture.
            It is circular logic.
            How can you show that YOUR interpretation is theologically more correct than OTHER interpretations by other Churches. Or more “true” than scripture from other religions.
            You cannot.
            Faith is belief without evidence.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are wrong. Your other “churches” go against the plain teachings of the Holy Bible and therefore not Christian but are cults. Christianity never condones sexual immorality. Read the Holy Bible. Some branches of the Western Church lost their wits by having ease like the ancient Israel of evil era did. Other regions have different kind of prominent errors. God’s truth cannot be compromised by some well-fed people’s abnormal inclination. Biblical Christianity alone is true; all others are false because they have no Saviour and they all produce massive number of innocent human victims because of false teachings. Unlike secularism, religions help people to somewhat restrain the uncontrollable evil of mankind, Christianity is incomparable in providing the truth and salvation. Biblical Christianity is the only evidential faith. You must study the Word of God, the Holy Bible. Ask God humbly to make you understand His Word.

          • BigHobbit

            You STILL provide no objective proof that YOUR interpretation of Scripture is superior, theologically, to any other.
            No matter how sure you are in your belief, other people are allowed the freedom to believe otherwise.
            THAT is religious freedom.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Religious freedom is to pursue the truth freely. Interpretation is correct only if all of the Holy Bible is taken into account. Honest studies come to the conclusion of Biblical Evangelical Christianity. The Word of God condemns Sodomy. So should all the Christian Church.

          • BigHobbit

            Yet in “all of the Christian Church in America” millions of Christians belong to Churches whose true and correct interpretation of Scripture lead them to ordain gay clergy and celebrate same sex marriage.
            And the have the freedom to believe THIER church, they dont have believe as YOUR church dictates.
            THAT is religious freedom.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Those millions are wrong. You are wrong, too. Religious freedom was established to live out the Word of God, not against it. Bible-illiteracy is the national problem. For “non-virgin” traitors, anything goes. They claim to be Christian falsely. They are actually the people of Sodom, according to the Holy Bible. ( Jude ch.1, Romans ch.1)

          • BigHobbit

            You cannot PROVE that those millions are wrong. Saying it over and over again isn’t proof, it is just repetition.
            You have no basis in asserting “bible illiteracy” when your complaint is against church doctrines that are based on THERI interpretation of that bible. All you are doing is calling names.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The billions disagree with your filthy social clubs, so you are wrong. Systematic theology is from the entire text of the Holy Bible, not partial. Enough of atrocities by the rich perv Westerners. If the West is sorry for colonialism, stop pushing your sick immorality now. Racists are better than the pervs. Sin is slavery. No more slavery to the sinful Western culture. Listen to the Christian fundies in the land.

          • BigHobbit

            One billion people live in countries where same sex marriage is legal.
            You can still find other countries where it is not.
            Perhaps you will be more comfortable in a theocracy somewhere, rather than a free country like America, full of Christians who ignore YOUR interpretations of the bible.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            7 billions don’t, although the West bribes and threatens poor nations; the West is going down now because of immorality. You need Biblical Christianity to get a life.

          • BigHobbit

            I have a life. My life. I don’t need your life. Or your religion.
            If life in the countries that don’t have same sex marriage is soooooo much better, you probably should head on over.
            You know, before the collapse of the decadent west.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You have no life because you have no Jesus. (John ch.10) The Western nations have been better-off only because of the Christian traditions. You guys are illiterate savages like the rest if you had no Christian Church.

          • BigHobbit

            I don’t have to meet YOUR test for what “a life” is. I am a free American, with my very own right to look out for my own “life, liberty an the pursuit of happiness.
            I have had a thirty year long professional career, own my house, have rental property, have savings enough for retirement, am married to a woman I love, look forward to a bountiful and active retirement, have grown professional children and a grandson. I am active, healthy, and have a large extended family that lives close. I vote every election, in person. I serve on jury duty every time I am called. I donate to charity. I live in a great neighborhood, in the best city, in the best state, in the best country in the world.
            Whose “life” do I need to “get”? I think that I will just let them keep it.

          • BigHobbit

            I am not a “illiterate savage” just because you assert it.

            Obviously I am literate, as we are discussion things using written language.
            I am not a “savage” by any rational definition of the word.
            “1. (chiefly in historical or literary contexts) a member of a people regarded as primitive and uncivilized.”
            As I am discoursing on the internet, it is illogical to assert that I am primitive, and as I live in a very populous city, by definition, I am civilized.
            Why would you lie about something that is so obviously wrong.
            Do you not have a biblical rule against telling untruths?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Christians invented the English written language, and the Church brought Europe(therefore USA and all other worlds) God’s truth, salvation, charity, education, civility, and lawfulness. You must be thankful to Christians instead of attacking them. You expect Christians to be good and honest, and Christians only desire to save you through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Stop attacking the good and true – Christianity; godless secularism has been insane.

          • BigHobbit

            The core of all western languages is indo-european, with roots that date back far older than Christianity. The origins of old english are from the Anglo Saxon proto-german, and they were pagan at the time. Likewise many english words come from pagan vikings who ruled in the dane-geld.
            All current western written languages derive from the (pagan) Phoenician script. That is why we call it phonetic.
            The ethics of the (pagan) geek philosophy document truth, charity, education, civility, democracy, and lawfulness centuries before Christians appropriated them.

            I’m guessing your mom left history out, too, when she home schooled you.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are wrong. Christian monks created the written language for the English people so that they could retain the Holy Scripture and Christian writings. Christian missionaries created many written languages on earth so that everyone could read the Holy Bible; mankind had nothing so worthy to read as the Holy Bible. Everyone is Noah’s descendant anyway. Europe was an average illiterate savage, worshipping demons and sacrificing children to demons just as any pagans would do, but they got willfully converted to Christianity, and the Church gave all the excellence. All Europe became Christian by 1,000 years ago and all its worth comes from having Christianity and the Holy Bible, as a conscience is the worth of a man. Post-christian West is trying to become a Sodom instead of fulfilling their mission of spreading the Christianity to the end of the world. The West must not persecute the Christians, at least.

          • BigHobbit

            Um, nope.
            That’s the thing about written language. It is written down.
            Virtually all western languages derive from the same indo-european roots, including all of the semetic languages the bible was originally written in, the classical Greek and Latin the bible was originally translated into, and all of the vulgate languages that contributed to old english, low germanic of the Picts, Angles, and saxons, even the Norse of the Dane-Geld, ALL stem from the same group of languages. The changes over time, the evolutions of the languages are documented, in the documents themselves. Old English derives primarily from the low German of the Angles and Saxons, who were pagan when they migrated to England. This is not even minutely controversial.
            ALL western written languages use a phonetic alphabet derived from the pagan Phoenicians. That is were the word phonetic COMES from – phoenician.
            You are entitled to your own beliefs, but you don’t get to just make up your own historical facts.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            All of Europe was Christianized by 1,000 years ago. Man is as far as his conscience gets. The Europeans were illiterate savages like the rest of mankind before the conversion, and the Church kept them civilized. The Bible translators and Protestant Reformers decided every human being to have literacy for the purpose of making them read the Holy Bible directly, 500 years ago. Public school for every child is an American Puritans’ invention to enable every child to read the Holy Bible. Mankind had no other purpose of having everyone obtain literacy. Those who read the Holy Bible break free from tyranny. Today’s Westerners don’t read the Holy Bible, and that’s why they submit to Sodomites like some obedient sheep. Having the Holy Bible = Having liberty.

          • BigHobbit

            The original translators of the bibles in English were executed as heretics by the church. Didn’t you read or watch Wolf Hall? It would be dangerous for the masses to actually read the bible.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The Catholic leadership was deadly wrong at that time. They also persecuted some real Christians within the Catholicism( e.g. John of the Cross), but they reformed themselves anyway although did not give up some false doctrines. Today, Catholicism does not prohibit reading the Holy Bible; many Catholics are still Bible-illiterate. They are better than some mainliners who endorse sexual perversion, though. The Western culture is insane to promote Sodomy this century; you guys should never have applied racial equality upon sexual immorality. What a global disaster that is especially upon children. Enough of atrocities from the rich pervs on earth. Today’s Western culture is a shame and disgrace to all mankind including all of the Western forefathers of yesteryears. Pagans do evil out of ignorance; godless Western secularism does heinous evil with full knowledge out of boredom. May God intervene.

          • BigHobbit

            Or they just don’t believe as you do.
            Freedom of religion means thinking for yourself, not just taking things on faith. Doing good because you figure that it is good, rather than because you fear eternal torture by a vengeful supernatural being.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are wrong. Humans have been always free to do evil. Doing God’s will requires true freedom. The Western civilization realized and established freedom only because the free access to the Holy Bible and a room to living it out became absolutely necessary to all. You don’t know how freedom came to be in the Western civilization and into rest of the world because you are too young and didn’t study the Western history properly. Mankind never have anything to claim freedom until encountering the Holy Bible. Existence of the Holy Bible makes collective human freedom necessary.

          • BigHobbit

            From wiki:
            English is a West Germanic language that originated from Anglo-Frisian dialects brought to Britain in the fifth to seventh centuries by Germanic invaders and settlers from what is now northwest Germany, west Denmark and the Netherlands.

          • Meepestos

            I commend you on your patience and introducing linguistics to Grace.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            English is also made from Greek, Latin, and French, not just German. The monks made the written language common.

          • BigHobbit

            The monks were literally the only the only literate people. They didn’t make it common. They did ensure documents survived, because they were the only ones making copies.
            Universal literacy is something in modern age, centuries later.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Because the Holy Scripture and the Christian writings were the only thing that is worthy to be handed down, even risking like. Universal literacy is Protestant Reformers’ idea who wanted every Earthling and every child read the Holy Bible. Printing was invented timely. All truth is God’s truth. Understanding the Holy Bible requires wholesome knowledge in everything. God blessed the West with numerous inventions so that the whole world will be reached with the life-giving, freedom-bringing Gospel of Jesus Christ. Godless moderners polluted the Planet Earth and the youth, but the Word of God continues to spread. No Biblical knowledge, literacy is meaningless; today’s Sodomic West is the proof.

          • BigHobbit

            Actually, as the only literate people, literally every document was created or copied by the clerics. It is the root of clerical. Govt Correspondence, Treaties, declarations of war, offers of marriage, official records, histories, and classical philosophical treatises, Aristotle. Socrates, etc.
            Almost everything that was written down was written by the only literate people available, the clerics.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are not correct. The Christendom is pretty vast and wide-ranged; it’s been always expanding and developing to this very day. Christendom includes all of Europe, Russia, and all of former British colonies including North America and also the entire South America and southern Africa and great chunks of Asia. Most of Earthlings are touched by the Russian and Westernern Christendom’s classic literature. If one reads any worthy literature on Planet Earth, he’d realize the unequal excellency of the Holy Bible and the Christian thoughts.

          • BigHobbit

            You really ought to read a bit more on the subject. Or listen to the excellent podcast, the History of English. You sound really interested, and your arguments would be a lot more pursuasive, if you would get just a few more historical facts in order. You might find the excellent podcast, The History of the Bible, useful. It would give you a better grasp of how the modern bible came to be.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Europe developed literature better than all others only because of the Holy Bible. The Holy Bible makes mankind observe humanity’s sin as reality to admit and struggle against and not to treat humanity’s evil as a mere fate. That truly set the West apart from the rest. The Church provided and promoted literacy everywhere( not just England) on earth so people could read the only serious Book on earth, the Holy Bible. All others are tales. The English had literacy only because of Christianity. Yes, study the history.

          • BigHobbit

            The best of western literature comes from the western civilization. Which happened to be Christian. You leave out 6000 years of eastern literature because you are literally ignorant of it. The Chinese would disagree with your judgement as to which is “better.”

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            What Chinese literature did you grow up with? You did not read any. The Western literature did not “happened” to be Christian. The European and Russian literature is supreme and superb only because of their Christian theological thoughts and Christian observations and Christian struggles. Non-christendom developed literature only after getting contact with the Christian West. (Some never did) Mimicking has been easy to anyone; there is nothing like the Christendom’s creation on earth in literature and music.

            Secular West has stopped thinking after abandoning Christianity. Today, many Chinese are very happy to get the copies of the Holy Bible for the first time in their lives. The Holy Bible liberates people. It originates from Israel, but the Christian West got the universal access and literacy on the Holy Bible first, the Earth’s unequal treasure and the only Book so worthy people would die for to get access. Europe and America developed schools and universities to study the Holy Bible. Stop repaying the good with evil to Christianity this century.

          • BigHobbit

            Millions of Americans are not “wrong” just because you say so.
            You need to PROVE they are wrong. And you can’t.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Read the Holy Bible. And millions more sane Americans and billions more Earthlings oppose your depraved millions. Your social clubs will be wiped out in duetime. ( Revelation ch.2-3)

          • BigHobbit

            You cannot logically, rationally, prove the truth of the Bible, by merely citing the Bible.
            It is circular logic. It doesn’t go anywhere, or prove anything.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Here is the supreme external evidence: Immoral secular Westerners hate the Holy Bible, therefore the Holy Bible is good and true.

          • BigHobbit

            Someone who ignores the Bible doesn’t hate it. Hate implies that they care. Most folks who are not Christians just ignore the bible completely.
            That isn’t hate – that is disbelief.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The West was a Christendom once before. Today’s secular Westerners hate Christianity because they hate morality, and they disrespect their ancestors and forefathers because yesteryears’ Westerners were Christian.

          • BigHobbit

            The framers of the constitution had a thousand years of religious wars in Europe to look back upon. The first amendment was meant to prevent religious violence – if no one religion is paramount, there would be no other religion trying to violently overthrow it.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are wrong. American Founding Fathers were the continuance of the Protestant Reformers. They didn’t want any government bodies to interfere with people who live out the Holy Bible. Keeping the Word of God – that’s the only reason USA was made free.

          • BigHobbit

            They didn’t want the government bodies to be filled with OTHER religions to interfere with THEIR religion. Many, many original colonists were recusants in England – they didn’t want to be beholden to the COE.
            They sought the freedom to believe what THEY wanted, not what the GOVT of England insisted that they believe.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Then-Europeans and then-Americans all sought the truth and wanted the Christianity to be upheld everywhere on earth. It is wrong for today’s Sodomic Western culture to oppress the Christians by pushing its immorality and falsehood.

          • BigHobbit

            Stopping oppression, is not equivalent to oppression.

            No longer being able to bend others to your religious will, doesn’t mean that you are oppressed.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Today’s secular Western culture forces people to condone abnormal sexual immorality. That’s the real crisis of this century for all mankind. Immoral people must not order around people. The West needs Judeo-Christian values for sanity.

          • BigHobbit

            You don’t have to “condone” other people’s freedom to live their lives according to their own religions.
            You just don’t get to oppress them with your religion.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The Western world needs the dominion by Judeo-Christian values because they have no truth or conscience apart from Christianity. Ex-christian West attacks morality and persecutes moral people.

          • BigHobbit

            You are entitled to your beliefs. Other folks are entitled to their beliefs.
            Secular Humanism doesn’t attack anything. It has ethics and morality, without supernatural belief. Doing the right thing, not because of fear of a terrible super being, but because it is the right thing.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are wrong. Secularism has no morality; it blasphemes, massacres unborn babies, and forces people to endorse abnormal depravity. Secularism worships the chaotic filthiest entity called self. You need to repent of your evil unbelief. ( Psalm ch.14, ch.139, John ch.3)

          • Meepestos

            You are wrong. Fortunately, Western secularism, which recognizes the light and guidance from other religions even those without gods, uses only the light and guidance (not only from the religious) that promotes good government and a social order separate from religious influences* such as sharia law, halacha, and the use of biblical interpretations to justify the discriminatory and draconian laws we see in some other Western nations that lack secularism. *This is what the person that invented the term “secularism” (also know as soft secularism) described and intended.

            Secularism in most Western nations manages to promote religious faith and worship without having to actively dismiss or criticize it by tax breaks and constitutions that protect worship like the US’s First Amendment and Canada’s Charter of Rights and Freedoms; both secular in nature. Western secularism recognizes that the religious and non-religious elements of society are required (including those that are not Christian) to accomplish a secular pluralistic society.

            Unlike you, many educated and worldly Christians vehemently agree that religious pluralism requires a Secular Democracy especially those in the “Christian” nations where other Christian denominations are not recognized or prohibited by Christians. Most religious folk and non-religious alike do not want any laws or policies of religious or non-religious character that would interfere or inhibit civil liberties. In Canada, considered one of the most multicultural and diverse nations on earth due to it being secular in nature has secular policies and laws that that allow police and RCMP that are Sikhs to wear turbans on duty as part of their uniform; Sikh kids at a public school can wear an article of faith called a Kirpan (small sword); Christian kids can wear a crucifix in public schools and pray in school just like Jews, and Muslims as long as it is not led by a school official or interferes with a class’s session. Canada also has some of the most advanced LGBT rights in the world thanks to secular Christians and other secularists. Oh, and of course those that have bursted out of their boxed in positions on scholarly biblical interpretations; credit where credit is due, which brings to mind the irony of Christians that say Christianity helped paved the way for secularism and others say it didn’t.

            And thanks to some secular Muslims, opposing non-secular Muslims, we saw the scrapping of existing religious arbitration tribunals for Jews and Christians in Canada. The wonders and morality of secularism continues to grow improving the lives of the religious and non..

            As for that old obsolete Psalm 14, it is merely an attempt to point out and study the depravity of mankind based on superstition and by stereotyping people that show no respect or reverence to a god. The verse arrogantly implies that the “fool” is an impious person who has no perception of ethical or religious truth. The verse goes on to list some other characteristics of the irreligious/impious: “They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; / there is no one who does good.” Though perhaps made with good intentions, it is still a typical arrogant and judgmental verse (and not unique) made during the time of Christianity in its infancy from a person or group ignorant (due to the lack of research or perhaps willfully ignorant) of the fact that during this time, a person that would reject the idea of God could have a great perception of ethical or “religious” truth and be just as moral or even more moral than a Christian, Jew, or Pagan.

            The way you are using this Psalm is folly on your part and neither theologian nor biblical scholar with a tertiary education would use it like you do.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The West has been better-off only because of Christianity. Secularism is corrupting it. The West needs Christianity for salvation and morality and sanity. God destroys every Sodom. (Jude ch.1)

          • Meepestos

            “Secularism is corrupting it.” Millions of Christians disagree with your opinion especially those that have been liberated by it.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Secularism seemed neutral until sometime in the 80’s. Not anymore. Today, the Western secularism is a tyranny of abnormal sexual immorality. You are too young to remember when the Western society was normal and noble and respected/coveted by everyone. Christianity has been the only sane conscience to the West. Man does only evil when he loses his conscience. That’s why today’s Western culture only lives for immorality. Christianity does not accommodate sexual perversion. There are no such millions of Christians in the West; they are pretenders. (Secularism helps a bit in the Islamic world and atheistic nations for freedom but the Muslims must have been disgusted about today’s West’s moral chaos because being Westernized means going for nudism and collapse of family units today. Mankind need the Holy Bible for real freedom. ) The West needs Christianity to get a life.

          • David Cromie

            Ever since the dawn of civilisation. there has always been some Golden Age that some people have harked back to. In some cases with reason to – for example, the indigenous peoples of North America, Africa, and Australia.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are wrong. No one mimicked them. Most Earthlings including the Americans mimicked the Christian British. Mankind grow up with the British and Russian literature where education is available. Indigenous peoples needed rescue from demon-worships and illiteracy and human rights abuses. Paganism abuses women and children. Secularism turn them into prostitutes. Mankind need Christianity for salvation and civility, both then and now.

          • David Cromie

            I am not sure what you mean by ‘mimicked’, as no ‘mimicking’ is implied in my riposte. Do you actually know what ‘mimic’ means?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Mimic means to copy, right? I thought that was a slang. The white Europeans did not copy the lifestyle of indigenous people of America; the reverse happened to the world as the most people chose to become modernized by the Christian West. Today’s Sodomic Western culture has become the grief of the world. You need Christianity to be saved and good and superior. Evil civilizations get destroyed by God at the end. (Revelation ch.18)

          • Meepestos

            “The white Europeans did not copy the lifestyle of indigenous people of America”

            To a large extent, there was no need to, as some of the lifestyles that the indigenous had already existed under Christendom in Europe. In some cases, it is unfortunate that the Europeans didn’t copy the lifestyles and values of some of the indigenous that lived in sedentary agricultural villages and the fishing communities under Chiefdoms. Also learning and practicing some of the hygienic habits and waste disposal methods of those in some of the city-states would have been beneficial to Europeans as well, but antiquated and draconian attitudes like yours made them blind to it just like those that thought the codices of the Aztecs were the works of the devil – non-Christian content – so they destroyed most of them.

            Your sweeping generalization of the hundreds of indigenous communities throughout the Americas is sheer folly on your part and is just as extreme like the folly of those that romanticize and generalize about the indigenous in regards to “living in harmony’..

            The Americas were very diverse that consisted of hunter-gatherers, semi-nomadic, chiefdoms, sedentary agricultural villages, and even city states; quite a few of these diverse communities had recognized boundaries/territories. Trade, war, and peace arrangements existed throughout the Americas even some confederacies. Many already had universal values, beliefs, and superstitions like that of Christianity, which Christianity appropriated many of them from pagans. Christians also appropriated pagan polytheistic practices, doctrine, and traditions such as purgatory, hell, holy relics, and holy water to name a few.

            Why do folk like you never compare London or Paris with Tenochtitlan or the locales of the highlands of Scotland with the locales of the Pacific Northwest during the 15th Century?

            Remember that the some indigenous folk throughout the Americas were just as savage or less savage than European Christians when it came to implementing punishment. In addition, slavery, torture, and scalping were practiced, which also existed prior to the 15th century in Europe’s Christendom not to mention burning their own people alive, and later in “New World”, natives with greenwood. Unfortunately some radical superstitious natives learned this from Christians and used it on others such as shamans accused of witchcraft as late as the 19th century. Aztec priests with their cutting out hearts isn’t more bizarre or barbaric than Christian priests quartering people and burning people alive; such is the minds of the zealously/religiously deluded priests.

            Have you ever considered getting an education in anthropology from a Catholic University? Your ignorance of the knowledge of indigenous ideas in the philosophical and political writings of Catholic humanists of the 16th Century is showing; unbecoming for a homeschooler.

            There are modern notions of democracy and some political theories that you can learn about that stem from pre-Columbian indigenous ideas that were recognized by Western religious philosophers, lawyers and politicians, and instances of some of them being implemented and even existing today. Can you name any?

            The freedom some indigenous communities had from authoritarian rulers and institutions also influenced a few important influential Christians during the Renaissance and beyond. Can you name at least one of those Christians?

            The Jesuits learned quite a bit from the indigenous in regards to morals, politics, and social systems; some they recognized were more advanced than that of the Christian Europeans’. They also recognized concepts, beliefs, and values the indigenous had that were similar and identical to that of Christianity’s and used this in their attempts to convert them. Some Jesuits even credit what they learned from some indigenous beliefs and values have made them more tolerant in regards to the faiths and beliefs of others worldwide more so than what Christianity taught them.

            As for indigenous morals influencing Christians, there are examples; here is one: Some Europeans that lived in and traded with sea faring indigenous communities, that had slave based economies, were chagrin by the fact that the children of slaves in these communities were born free thus brought into question among the many of the settlers the morality of slavery especially in regards to Indentured servants.

            Poor natives, damned by Christians if they didn’t assimilate and damaned if they did become Christians. One of hundreds of examples of natives not fairing well under Christendom. Here is one:

            Some Prairie native Christian communities that were successful in farming and reaped the benefits’ from it were quickly segregated and economically isolated by putting restrictions on the sale of their produce and the ability to purchase farming equipment due to Christian settlers pressuring the government. The settlers didn’t like the competition and the notion of them adapting so well/being prosperous challenged their theologically based racism.

            As history shows, many indigenous communities and nations didn’t fair well under their short existence under Christendom as we have seen with the Arawaks and Beothuks. If only the Arawaks and Beothuks had a chance or at least had some successors so they could see the world today and learn about the world’s non-Christian ethical philosophies. Unfortunately Christendom didn’t provide that for them.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            People all over the world willfully converted to Christianity in spite of unthinkable persecutions from all sorts of villains. The Westerners were normal only when they respected Christianity because the Western culture’s only sane morality is Christianity. The Westerners were illiterate savages like the rest when they had no Church. Today, the secularists are a bunch of money-worshipping Sodomites who fund and force their sick deterioration upon the world. They’d do anything to make moral people suffer, even sacrificing their own children’s safety.

            Enough of the atrocities. Learn to be ashamed of the nakedness and sexual immorality and the destruction of global children. The childlessness and the amorality of youth in rich nations is the destined woes. Sodomic West has no decent future. The West must repent of its blasphemy and infanticide and sexual depravity and return to God to have life and honor again. The secular West must stop dishonoring God and shaming the parents. Nothing good will come out of it. Listen to the Bible-preaching Christians in the land to get a life.

          • DoorknobHead

            BEAUTIFUL. Truth be known, reading your text is like listening to “DM Murdock” talk…it’s a beautiful invigorating experience.

          • BigHobbit

            You cannot objectively, rationally PROVE that your interpretation is scripture is superior to the interpretations of millions of other Christians.
            You don’t prove the bible, by merely citing the bible, it is circular logic. You don’t get anywhere.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Your problem is not-reading the Holy Bible. The Word of God condemns homosexuality and transgenderism as abhorrent sins and it is heinous evil that the Western culture demands people to condone the sins.

          • BigHobbit

            I am a free American. I am not a Christian. I have no obligation to read YOUR scriptures, let alone agree with YOUR interpretations.
            There are about 4000 different religions identified throughout history.
            You are an atheist about 3999 of them. I am an atheist about 4000.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Christianity created USA; so you must read the Holy Bible in order to get saved. Freedom was established to read the Holy Bible freely. Those 3,999 are wrong including your atheism and secularism. Psalm ch.14.

          • BigHobbit

            Yep. There are 3999 religions that you don’t believe in. There are 4000 religions that I don’t believe in.
            Try applying just a little, tiny bit of the critical thinking that you use to discard those 3999, and, just for a little test of your logic, apply that critical thinking to your own religion. I mean, you are confident, right? So what harm could there be to put your self in an independent place of mind, and think critically about your own beliefs.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Atheism and 3,999 religions offer no salvation. Biblical Christianity has the Divine Saviour and it alone offers the sure salvation; therefore Biblical Christianity alone is true.

          • BigHobbit

            A very many of the 3999 religions have some sort of life after death belief. More than do not. You cannot PROVE that your belief of life after death is true, any more than they can. You certainly have no PROOF that your life after death is more accurate than theirs.
            Faith is belief without evidence.
            You have no evidence.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            They have no atonement or redemption for mankind’s sin. They are all futile. (Hebrews ch.9) Atheism even does not have any morality.

          • BigHobbit

            Atheism is the simply absence of supernatural belief – it makes no positive claim on anything.
            Obviously, morality and ethics cannot possibly come from the mere absence of the belief of the supernatural.
            My morality and ethics are most closely aligned with Secular Humanism, but not completely.
            Definitely philosophical, derived logically from first principals, rather than from blind, unreasoned compliance with dogma.
            Open to revision when presented with rational, logical reason to do so.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Amorality = immorality. Secular humanism blasphemes, kills unwanted children in wombs, and pushes abnormal sexual immorality and suicide. Secular humanism = absense of morality and the push of evil. Christianity has the highest standard of morality in everything.

          • BigHobbit

            Lying is a sin.

            Blaspheme is in the eye the beholder. You draw a cartoon of Mohammed and a Muslim says that is blasphemy. A Christian says it is freedom of speech.

            Some Secular Humanists are anti-abortion, many are not.

            You dont “push” anything other than freedom when you don’t demean and discriminate against those who live and love differently than you.

            Secular Humanism is ethics and morality derived from rational thought rather than blind faith in supernatural beings.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Don’t draw Mohammed because the Muslims do not want it. Draw American comedians and cartoonists if you are so bored and desire to ridicule someone. Stop mocking other people’s serious entities. True Christians do not draw Mohammed. Secular-humanists are confused people at best; they have no clear moral standard even in the case of heinous live human experiments. The West has no conscience if it has no Christianity. The West attacks anyone who does not adhere its Sodomic notion and it’s a human rights abuse. Secular West thinks everyone has to become as immoral as they are, and it’s wrong. The West’s morality is from Christianity alone. Humanism started killing when it departed Christianity. The West needs Christianity for salvation and sane conscience.

          • BigHobbit

            Secular west wants every one to have the liberty to decide for themselves what religious dictates they should follow. And which they have the freedom to not follow.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Freedom is evil if it forces other people to endure blasphemy and infanticide and sexual depravity. That’s a human rights abuse against mankind. Freedom must accompany other virtues. American forefathers never imagined that Americans would attack morality and virtues; that’s why they only stressed freedom because they were good guys fighting against villains at that time. If villains and pervs rant freedom, it’s a crime against everyone else. Freedom is for truth-seeking people as American forefathers said. Sin is slavery. Jesus is the Truth and He alone sets people free. (John ch.8-10)

          • BigHobbit

            Blasphemy laws are mind control and tyranny. Free people may freely express what they want.
            If others think your beliefs are ridiculous, say 79 virgins in the afterlife, than it is no crime to express that it is ridiculous. You feel free to mock secular humanism, I don’t advocate sending you to prison for doing so.

            Abortion is not infanticide. Don’t be such a drama queen.

            Freedom means doing what is right for you. What consenting adults do in private is not your concern. Don’t be such a voyuer.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Where there is no Christian morality, there is no freedom but only tyranny. Secularism is not secularists’ beliefs; secularists believe in immorality and that is nothing to be cherished. A fact. Abortion is Holocaust against unwanted children. A fact. God decides what is right, not the Post-christian Sodomic Westerners. Sodomic West forces moral people to endorse sick depravity and that’s the problem for all mankind for now. A fact. The West needs Christian virtues to be normal again.

          • BigHobbit

            I am a free American. I may draw whatever cartoon I please. I don’t have to bow down to anybody elses religion.

            Enforcing Blasphemy laws is the worst kind of thought oppression. It is the opposite of critical thought and any freedom of conscience.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Freedom was established to declare and carry out God’s truth and not to make religious moral people suffer or do evil. Today’s West is suffering from boredom severely, and that’s why secular Westerners are ridiculing Christianity their only conscience and whatever normal people cherish. Americans are burning American flags and attacking even their own police officers because liberals and humanists taught Americans to disrespect God. No Christianity = No wisdom. Man cannot be good apart from God. Godless humans are being suicidal.

          • BigHobbit

            As a man married to a woman, I might be a “slave” to my spouse, but I suspect that even you might not think I sin, at least not sexually.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Your unbelief is the fundamental sin; that’s why you are confused even on morality and freedom. (Psalm ch.14)

          • Meepestos

            Can’t be a slave to a a superstition that is of religious construct that originated in Eurasia.

            Have you ever considered comparing the concept of sin with that of Hinduism’s concept of sin?, which is a bit similar in regards to it being it is a “crime against the law of god”, but more so to do with karma.

            The Jesuits encounter with the Hurons might be of interest to you also in that the Hurons did have the concept of sin nor would recognize it, but they did recognize wrongdoings, personal errors, and injustices and had the will to work them out amongst themselves; not that the Hurons were any better or worse as the Christians in regards to superstition and implementing justice. To them, as to many people around the globe outside of Eurasia, the concept of sin was superfluous and the notion of a “spiritual crime” – “the heart and thought of the man performing it” – was inconceivable (The notion that one would be punished or rewarded in an after life for a thought not carried out bad or good was absurd to many) until they or their children learned of the religious concept of sin and the Abrahamic concept of god through being indoctrinated by force, coercion, or voluntarily.

            Nowadays modern knowledge and wisdom usually prevails hence allows us to scrutinize more freely the religious concepts of our ancestors i.e., deities, afterlife, purgatory, etc nevertheless, anthropologically, hamartiology and soteriology are still intriguing.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The West lived well and did excellent things only because of the Bible-literate Christianity. Today’s West is going down because it abandoned Christianity, their only conscience and life source, like the ancient Israel of evil era did. Sodom never lasts. The West must repent of its evil rebellion against God in order to live again. Sodom does not last.

          • Meepestos

            “The West lived well and did excellent things” At times on the backs and at the expense of millions of lives even fellow Christians, and we still see the lasting and damaging effects of it not to mention how it contributed to social problems that continue to exist in many communities today throughout the Western World especially in the Americas. Can you guess what communities?

            “only because of the Bible-literate Christianity.” An untruth. You really like that word “only”. There are other reasons, but it is of no surprise you do not mention them or know of them, as it has been pointed out to me (credit where credit is due) by an ordained priest with a Th.D., that you have clearly demonstrated to others your partial knowledge and lack of understanding the complexities of the forming of Christendom let alone some of the major negative affects of Christian hegemony that has affected the Western World and abroad in the past and today.

            
”Today’s West is going down because it abandoned Christianity” “going down” in your eyes only because folk like you can no longer oppress and influence others with your Christian privilege and theologically based bigotry, homophobia, and racism; that used to appeal to many Creationists and Social Darwinists. ; )

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Today’s West’s problem is its own mentally-ill immorality and nothing else. You guys should never have insulted the gentle sensible Christians in your land. The Westerners do not know about the unequal superb worth of their own Christian heritage correctly because they always had access to the Holy Bible unlike other civilizations. Typical of rotten thankless kids from a rich family with good parents. Bible-literate Christianity is the only exceptionally good thing about your civilization; the rest of the world had everything else you have. The West goes chaotic if it has no Christian virtues. Why don’t you guys ever learn anything from your own history? Enough of atrociries by the rich pervs. You must repent of your sin to get freedom. Sin is slavery. Jesus is the Truth and He gives life and sets people free.

          • BigHobbit

            I am a free American. I am free to ridicule anything that is ridiculous, to me.
            I do not submit my thoughts to your control. It isn’t happening.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Jesus said, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.” (John ch.8) You are a slave to your own sin, the worst tyrant in the entire universe. You need God’s truth for liberation. It is wrong for the USA to push abnormal sexual immorality into the world. No slavery to the Western pervs. Sin is slavery. Mankind have rights to God’s Word and morality and freedom as the Christian American forefathers so established. Today’s USA is a slave to sin.

          • BigHobbit

            You STILL do not square the first amendment precluding any logical claim that America is a Christian state. You STILL don’t square the first ammendment with your implausible assertion that the only basis of the Constitution is the Bible.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            My point is that USA like all other Western nations have the Holy Bible as the moral standard and you guys must not persecute the Christians only to become the human rights abusers. The first amendment only protects Christians to oppose sins but today’s West is doing the contrary. No Christianity = No freedom or justice. Secularism is against the Constitution because sin is slavery.

          • BigHobbit

            Evening it were, Which Christian faith would decide? What if a Christian theocracy was different than yours?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Biblical Christianity is singular. The West should have stopped at the point where they abolished racism against the colored people. No one imagined that secularism would apply the hard-earned racial equality upon abnormal sexual immorality and ruin global children and persecute the Bible-believing Christians for speaking out God’s moral standard. You guys are hurting your own children by supporting sick decadence.

          • BigHobbit

            As MLK put it, the arc of the moral universe bends towards justice.
            Using demeaning language to describe fellow citizens in order to deny legal equality doesn’t convince folks of the truth of your prejudice, it merely marks you as one who wishes to keep fellow citizens in legal inferiority.
            Luckily for the moral progress of technology country, the lies that you tell about gays and lesbians are no longer accepted by the majority of Americans. Especially those under thirty who reject your prejudice by a super majority greater than 75%.
            Cry and moan all you like, your kind is now joining the racists on the ash heap of history.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            MLK said a naive thing because he was living in the USA with a plenty of Christian conscience in the society, educated by the good-natured white Christian Americans. He has no idea how the pagan world was like. Universe bends towards nothing; there is only God’s providence and justice and mercy and sovereignty in this world. Equality never means push of sexual depravity. MLK wanted people to judge the character fairly. Being colored is God’s creation, but homosexuality/transgenderism is a destructive sin. USA regressed morally. The Westerners are singling out Bible-believing Christians instead of colored people for bullying. You guys are 500 years regressed although the nationhood is only 230 years. Racist Westerners were better than today’s Westerners to encounter because they were not sexual pervs.

          • BigHobbit

            America is about freedom, equality and justice for all. About freedom of religion. About freedom from religious oppression.
            That means your beliefs cannot be used to legally disadvantage those of other faiths.
            YOUR church may deny marriage to same sex couples in your church, but it cannot deny the religious freedom of OTHER churches to decide to celebrate same sex marriage.
            Your beliefs are not sufficient to justify denial of rights to those of other faiths.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Freedom is about living out God’s Word according to one’s own clear conscience, and equality applies to all humans including the unwanted children in wombs. Sodomites force falsehood and immorality upon the normal religious people. Your church is not a church or a faith but a social club. Therefore, secular USA has no freedom or equality or justice; it’s just experiencing a tyranny of the liberals. USA needs Judeo-Christian values for the truth, freedom, equality, and justice for all.

          • BigHobbit

            Freedom is worshiping at YOUR church, and not having religious laws from OTHER churches forced upon you.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The Western culture forces Christians to endorse abnormal sinful sexuality. That’s today’s problem. Your church is not a Christian church. God condemned homosexuality. Those who advance sexual immorality are cults and nothing of Christian.

          • BigHobbit

            Millions of American Christians belong to denominations that ordain gay clergy and celebrate same sex marriage.
            YOU lack authority to say they are not Christian. Further, it is illogical to appeal to America as a Christian nation because the majority of the population is Christian, then turn around and claim that a majority of those Christians are not actually Christian. You are arguing out of both sides of your mouth at the same time.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Those denominations are dying off as God’s judgment. The last thing unsaved souls need is church pretenders who promote depraved sexuality. God is holy and His love is holy. The Word of God says they are no Christ-followers – the sexually immoral don’t belong to the Kingdom of God( Romans ch.1 Corinthians ch. 6). All you need is to read His Word. America’s founding and purpose is Christian but the people are not all Christian. Those who endorse homosexuality are not Christian because they are practically denying sin’s existence therefore are rejecting the plain teaching of God. Be logical.

          • BigHobbit

            Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Quakers and Unitarians CHOOSE to celebrate same sex marriage. No church is ever required to marry anyone.
            What a silly assertion.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            They are cults, not church. Christianity is forever incompatible with sexual depravity. If a church endorses such abnormal destructive sins, it is not church.

          • BigHobbit

            Millions of Americans are living out God’s Word according to their own clear concience, and their churches, like the Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Quaker, Unitarian and others. And those churches ordain gay clergy and Celebrate same sex marriages.
            THEIR OWN CLEAR CONCIENCE, not YOURS.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are wrong. God condemned homosexuality and transgenderism. Those apostates are living AGAINST the Word of God, and they are the direct reason the whole Western world got into sexual chaos and Biblical Christians get persecutions for opposing the immorality in the perv West. When people go against the Holy Bible, it is a human rights abuse and nothing of a clear conscience. Indulgence-selling Roman Catholic Church’s guilt seems to be nothing comparing to sexually perv social clubs of the West. Only cults approve sexual depravity, not any Christian Church. You guys got a mental illness from having easy life for too long. Don’t involve others using your filthy power.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            You guys got a mental illness from having easy life for too long. Don’t involve others using your filthy power and filthy money.

            I’m very healty. Didn’t had a easy life, my parents had to turn every peny twice before spending it. I don’t have any power and money, well I get around every month.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            I’m talking about the secular West’s Sodomic inclinations. It’s impossible for a civilization to push such immorality unless it’s suffering from boredom of having everything instantly. Rich pervs keep seeking warped amusement until they get halted by external elements. You guys have wasted God’s blessings in the Christendom. Stop pushing the filth and nudism in the world. Be humane by leaving the Christians with religious freedom. Biblical Christians are the only hope in the civilization, as always.

          • BigHobbit

            There can be no law against “basphemy” in a country with actual freedom.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            That’s what’s wrong about godless secularism. And where there is no respect for God, people do not respect human life, either.

          • BigHobbit

            You are misusing language to infer that legal abortion is infantcide.
            That a fetus is the same as a person. It is not. It never has been.

            But you know that, don’t you?

            We venture off topic. If you want to continue a discussion on the constitutional question of same swx marriage, I am in.

            I will not respond, in this discussion, on a woman’s constitutional freedom to govern her own body

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are wrong. Unborn babies are human children. Read Psalm ch.139 and Luke ch.1. You are alive today only because the Church taught people abortion is murder.

          • BigHobbit

            Different Churches have different scriptural interpretations. Some believe as you do, others do not. You lack authority to pretend to speak for all Christians. Millions of American Christians belong to churches that ordain gay clergy and celebrate same sex marriage.
            Free Americans may join whichever church they like, they are not forced to pick YOUR church. Many do not see a conflict between Christianity and behaving with fairness and justice towards everyone.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            God decrees His true churches and it is written in His Word. The Church is incompatible with homosexuality. Read Romans ch.1 and Revelations ch.1-2. The Sodomy supporters are not part of the Church but some social clubs. Even selling indulgences sounds nothing comparing to the active supporting of Sodomy. True Christians must flee from the apostates’ gatherings. Things haven’t changed since 500 years ago, just worse regarding the nature of apostasy.

          • BigHobbit

            YOU say God’s will is one thing. Millions of other Christianstuff belong to churches that say God’s will is different.
            You all are reading one version of the bible or the other, one translation or the other, yet come to differing interpretations.
            You have no objective, rational, way to PROVE that your interpretation is true and every one of the other interpretations is false.
            In America, free people are allowed to decide for themselves. No one is obligated to believe as you do.

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    The West including USA must not force sexual depravity upon the world this century because the civilization made the world suffer so much. Christian Westerners are the only good Westerners upon the earth. All others are plain bullies set for evil plans. The West has neither a conscience or freedom apart from Christianity. USA needs the Holy Bible for the truth, human rights, liberty, fairness, justice, morality, and sanity.

    • Steen Goddik

      Rarely have i read such narcissistic nonsense.

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        Separation of Church and state is not for separation of conscience from man. Please wake up. You guys have no moral standard or civility apart from Christianity. Post-christian culture is just blasphemy, nudism, addiction, infanticide, suicide, and child-abusing depravity.

        • Steen Goddik

          Secular law, the US Constitution, is still the law of the land, your narcissistic navel gazing none withstanding.

  • http://www.bibleversusconstitution.org/ Kingdom Ambassador

    QUESTION: Would this have ever occurred in 17th-century Christian Colonial America whose governments of, by, and for God were established upon Yahweh’s immutable moral law, including Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13?

    ANSWER: Of course, not!

    OBSERVATION: There must, therefore, be a definitive moment in America’s history when her Christian character and biblical course were formally altered. That point was in 1787 when the 18th-century founders replaced the 17th-century Colonial governments for their own humanistic government of, by, and for the people based upon capricious man-made Enlightenment traditions.

    EVIDENCE: See free online book “Bible Law vs. the United States Constitution: The Christian Perspective,” in which every Article and Amendment is examined by the Bible.” Click on my name, then our website. Go to our Online books page and click on the top entry.

    Then, find out how much you REALLY know about the Constitution as compared to the Bible. Take our 10-question Constitution Survey in the right-hand sidebar and receive a complimentary copy of the 85-page “Primer” of the 565-page “BL vs. USC.”

    • TheKingOfRhye

      Hey, now that’s a little different. Usually it’s the atheist and/or liberal-types like me who have to point out that the Constitution and our country’s laws are not based on Christianity or the Bible…..I guess the difference here is I think that’s a good thing!

  • timetorun

    this is the bitter fruit of 250 years of secularist inroads into the western world. Started in Europe with Voltaire, Machiavelli, the illuminsts, the jacobins + the French revolution, communism and then came over to the US 100 years in the form of unbridled progressivism. this is what happens when Christians stopped being the salt of the earth, and being disengaged from understanding the world and being soley focused on personal pietism. Only a small taste what life will be like when the rapture leaves the world totally given over to satan.

  • JodyLynn Harris

    Everyone needs to hit up the Muslim shops then… Why the attack on Christian stores/shops? Why aren’t the gays going to Muslim shops asking for a wedding cake?

    • TheKingOfRhye

      What, you never saw that video from the guy (straight, but told the bakeries and other places he was gay) who did just that in Dearborn, Michigan? I’ve never seen it myself, but I’ve heard so much about it I feel like I have already. Kind of silly, the whole thing, if you ask me….no one refused anything he asked for, except for the one place he went to that actually doesn’t even make wedding cakes. And even if they did refuse him, in Michigan, it’s still legal to do so, as sexual orientation isn’t covered by their anti-discrimination laws.

      Also, I’m not quite sure about this, but I’d bet Dearborn has more Muslim owned stores and shops than anywhere else in this country. I obviously don’t know where you live, but do you see Muslim bakeries all over the place, wherever it is? The reason why LGBT people have been “attacking” the Christian-owned shops is because they’re the ones that have been doing the bulk, the vast majority, of the discrimination. There are, after all, something like 70 times more Christians than there are Muslims in this country. (Not that it really means all that much, but there are more homosexuals than Muslims in the US)

    • David Cromie

      Do you know of any Muslim bakery/confectioner that sells wedding cakes?

  • GibbyD

    That “Judge” is simply a political plant. NO WAY can we be forced to participate in a perverted and disgusting ceremony. They can sin and go to Hell but you cannot and will not be able to force genuine Christians to participate in your sin. This is the kind of thing that will start a violent bloody revolution in America !!!

    • GibbyD

      Anyone has the right to be served lunch but you do not have the right to force anyone to sit down with you at that table and partake with you.

    • Steen Goddik

      If you hold a business license, then you are forced to follow secular law.

      • GibbyD

        The Constitution is the Supreme law of the land. A legal union of two of the same gender ,. IS NOT A MARRIAGE , NOR COULD IT EVER BE. You need a plug and a socket for there to be any real connection and power. God designed a man and a woman for a purpose, HIs purpose and not your perversion. The constitution protects people from being forced to participate in somebody else’s sick perverted sin and shame. As I have said before , a business may serve you a meal or sell you a cake or a camera, BUT YOU CANNOT FORCE THEM TO SIT DOWN AND EAT WITH YOU , SET UP AND SERVE THAT CAKE AT YOUR ABOMINATION NOR COMPEL THEM TO PHOTOGRAPH IT . The legal decision at the USA Supreme Court will be based on the degree of PARTICIPATION in accords with the 1st amendment and also the right to privacy. If those Justices in 1973 thought that someone could kill an innocent unborn girl or boy based on the ” right to privacy” , surely they would also include that same basis so as not to force someone to associate and participate in perversion and sin

        • Steen Goddik

          Sure it is a marriage. The law defines it as such. It may not be a holy union according to a specific church. But it certainly still constitutes a legal marriage, your hate-mongering bigotry none withstanding.

          It is amazing how many of you profess Christianity, while spitting on everything Jesus taught us about love. You love sin, because it gives you sinners to hate. You are Christians in name only, worshipping in Satan’s Church of Hate.

          • GibbyD

            The most hateful thing a professing Christian can do , whether they are truly a real Christian or not , is to refuse to warn you of the reality of an everlasting literal burning Hell. Before some one sees that they are lost , they need to see that they are sinners in need of a Saviour. Not standing up for what is a real marriage is giving in the the lie of Satan that what two homosexuals have is a real marriage. A plug and a plug and a socket and a socket have no connection and there is no real power from God in their relationship. It is not “LOVE” we are talking about concerning homosexuality but rather evil carnal lust . You don’t have to have sex with anyone you think or you say you “love”. It is not a marriage. God created marriage and He is the one the defines what it is . Repent toward God ( HOLY LOVE) and place your faith and trust toward The LORD Jesus Christ ( God incarnate) ( Acts 20:21; 1st John 4:7,8; John 1:1-4)KJB

          • Bob Johnson

            If a real Christian is to warn people of the reality of sin, would the Christian’s time and money be better spent against the vast advertising establishment (those who lead people to covet), or the movie industry with rampant profanity and adultery not to mention the making of graven images? These sins are straight from the Ten Commandments, are these not as great if not greater than your plug and socket concerns?

          • GibbyD

            It is called multi- tasking. All those can be addressed.

            The consequences of sin, if unrepentant , are what we warn against.

            The graven image would only be a sin if you bowed down to worship it . See the 2nd commandment.

            There were not just 10 commandments that the Jewish people , God’s chosen nation, were to observe and obey but rather 613 . Some may say that these were divided between ceremonial and moral but because they are threaded together and linked in the manuscripts and copies that we have , it does no seem as if any of them were to be ignored , taken lightly or even disobeyed. Under the old covenant and testament , they were to be obeyed. When they were not , there was in place the sacrificial system for atoning ( covering ) of those sins. NOBODY obeyed them all. It seems as if they were given by God to show them that they could not and that they needed something more , someONE more to help them . The Promise of One to come is in the Hebrew Scriptures. There are over 333 prophecies that The LORD Jesus Christ fulfills that point exclusively to Him to be that One , the Messiah.

            The Bible says that Christ is the end of the law to them who believe. The Bible says that the law (613) and the prophets were until John the Baptist. In these last days God has spoke to us by HIs Son. God is a Spiirt ( John 4:24)KJB. God became incarnate in the person of The LORD Jesus Christ ( John 1:14; Isaiah 9:6)KJB .

            All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death (eternal separation from God). The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ the LORD ( Romans 3:23; 6:23)KJB If you want to receive everlasting and abundant life and love , Jesus said , Ye MUST be born again” ( John 3:3; 1st Peter 1:23; 2 Corinthians 5:17)KJB. For this to happen you need , ‘ ..repentance toward God and faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ ” ( Acts 20:21; Romans 6:17,23)KJB . Please don’ delay.

          • Steen Goddik

            You are lying. The most hateful thing a Christian can do is to hate. You guys worship in Satan’s Church of hate, where you love sin. Because it gives you sinners to hate.

            1 Cor 13:13 Mat 238-39. You clearly hate your neighbor.

          • GibbyD

            God’s Words are the TRUTH. I care enough about my neighbor and others that are without Christ , to warn them of coming judgement upon them if they do not repent toward God and place their faith and trust toward The LORD Jesus Christ . ( Acts 20:21)KJB. God is LOVE , yes , But he is also HOLY !!! God will not save anyone that tries to justify a sin that God calls an abomination and something that He says he gives those that practice it , over to a reprobate mind. God became a man in the person of The LORD Jesus Christ . Jesus bore our sins in His own body while on the cross of Calvary. The suffering of The LORD Jesus would be equal to what it would be like to burn on fire forever !! The LORD Jesus ( God incarnate) , did not want anyone to suffer that so He suffered it for them. The merciful benefit of not going to Hell and the joy of having everlasting life and entrance someday in Heaven , will not be granted , according to The HOLY WORD OF GOD, if you do not agree with God about what HE CALLS SIN . In order to be forgiven and be granted everlasting life , The BIble ( JESUS ) says you MUST , ” confess your sins . He then says that He would be faithful and just to forgive you of your sins and to cleanse you of all unrighteousness” ( 1st John 1:9)KJB. These are not my words , they are God’s Words. You would be calling God a liar if you do not believe them.

          • Steen Goddik

            I am not calling God a liar. I am calling YOU a liar. And you are not God, your narcissistic blasphemy none withstanding.

          • GibbyD

            Yes , you call God a liar by not believing His Words in The Bible. Stop delaying and begin believing . Everlasting Life begins the moment you ” repent toward God and place your faith and trust toward The LORD Jesus Christ ” ( Acts 20:21)KJB.

          • Steen Goddik

            Another lie. You twisting and turning God into something fake to justify your hate and bigotry, and your desperate need to discriminate, that certainly is not biblical.

          • GibbyD

            I am not lying and I do not hate you or anybody. It is the devil that has people deceived and it is he that is my enemy, not you or anyone that is still trapped in their sin and without Christ. My goal is to proclaim the Gospel which is the only thing that can free men of sin and it’s consequences if they obey it from the heart and believe it . ( Romans 1:16)KJB. To be ” discriminating” is not a bad thing unless you use that as an excuse to harm people. To discriminate is simply to be able to see and tell the difference between things but it is not evil unless it is used for evil . The Scriptures are the great revealer about things in terms of what is good and what is not. The Bible is trustworthy while the mere words of man are not. Place your trust in The LORD Jesus Christ and what He did for you at Calvary . He is the only One that Loves you so much that He would die for you and pay that horrible price because of your sins. Let Christ make you clean and allow Him to grant to you everlasting and abundant satisfying life and love.

          • David Cromie

            Why would any sane person believe what they read in a book of fables, legends, and folklore, when there is no testable, or falsifiable, evidence for the reality of the alleged ‘god’ supposed to render the so-called ‘bible’ the ‘truth’?

          • GibbyD

            Because same people have examined the evidence and do find testable scientific evidence for the reality of God. Consider the mathematical statistical probability that over 333 prophecies concerning one man can all be fulfilled by someone thousands of years after those recorded writings and prophecies were recorded. The LORD Jesus Christ fulfills them all. These are just the prophecies of The Messiah , there are hundreds of others concerning other events that have , are and will be fulfilled.
            Here are just the 1st one hundred prophecies and their fulfillment concerning The LORD Jesus Christ. You can find the rest .

            You would have to be very stupid not to worship someOne that has proven
            to be God incarnate. You would have to be completely owned and blinded
            by your sins not to be able to see your need of a Saviour. You would
            have to be misinformed if you think God would ” force” you to do
            anything. He gives you a free will and a mind that can think . Consider
            the evidence .

            1. Genesis 3:15…..Seed of a woman (virgin birth)…..Luke 1:35, Matthew 1:18-20

            2. Genesis 3:15…..He will bruise Satan’s head…..Hebrews 2:14, 1 John 3:8

            3. Genesis 5:24….The bodily ascension to heaven illustrated….Mark 6:19

            4. Genesis 9:26-27…The God of Shem will be the Son of Shem…Luke 3:36

            5. Genesis 12:3…As Abraham’s seed, will bless all nations…Acts 3:25,26

            6. Genesis 12:7…The The Promise made made to Abraham’s Seed…Galatians 3:16

            7. Genesis 14:18…A priest after Melchizedek…Hebrews 6:20

            8. Genesis 14:18……..A King also……..Hebrews 7:2

            9. Genesis 14:18…The Last Supper foreshadowed…Matthew 26:26-29

            10. Genesis 17:19…….The Seed of Isaac…….Romans. 9:7

            11. Genesis 21:12 …Seed of Isaac…Romans 9:7, Hebrews 11:18

            12. Genesis 22:8…The Lamb of God promised…John 1:29

            13. Genesis 22:18…As Isaac’s seed, will bless all nations…Galatians 3:16

            14. Genesis26:2-5..The Seed of Isaac promised as the Redeemer..Hebrews11:18

            15. Genesis 49:10…The time of His coming…Luke 2:1-7; Galatians 4:4

            16. Genesis 49:10…….The Seed of Judah…….Luke 3:33

            17. Genesis 49:10……Called Shiloh or One Sent……John 17:3

            18. Genesis 49:10…To come before Judah lost identity…John 11:47-52

            19. Genesis 49:10…To Him shall the obedience of the people be…John 10:16

            20. Exodus 3:13,14……..The Great “I Am”…….John 4:26

            21. Exodus 12:5…A Lamb without blemish…1 Pet. 1:19

            22. Exodus 12:13…The blood of the Lamb saves Romans wrath…Romans. 5:8

            23. Exodus 12:21-27…Christ is our Passover…1 Corinthians 5;7

            24. Exodus 12:46…Not a bone of the Lamb to be broken…John 19:31-36

            25. Exodus 13:2…Blessing to first born son…Luke 2:23

            26. Exodus 15:2…His exaltation predicted as Yeshua…Acts 7:55,56

            27. Exodus 15:11…His Character-Holiness…Luke 1:35; Acts 4:27

            28. Exodus 17:6…The Spiritual Rock of Israel…1 Corinthians 10;4

            29. Exodus 33:19…His Character-Merciful…Luke 1:72

            30. Leviticus14:11…The leper cleansed-Sign to priesthood..Luke5:12-14; Acts 6:7

            31. Leviticus16:15-17…Prefigures Christ’s once-for-all death…Hebrews 9:7-14

            32. Leviticus16:27…Suffering outside the Camp…Matthew 27:33; Hebrews 13:11, 12

            33. Leviticus17:11…The Blood-the life of the flesh…Matthew 26;28; Mark 10:45

            34. Leviticus17:11…It is the blood that makes atonement…1 John 3:14-18

            35. Leviticus23:36-37…The Drink-offering: “If any man thirst.” ..John 19:31-36

            36. Numbers 9:12…Not a bone of Him broken…John 19:31-36

            37. Numbers 21:9…The serpent on a pole-Christ lifted up…John 3:14-18

            38. Numbers 24:8… Flight to Egypt…Matthew 2:14

            39. Numbers 24:17…Time: “I shall see him, but not now.”…Galatians 4:4

            40. Numbers 24:17-19…A star out of Jacob…Matthew 2:2, Luke 1:33,78, Revelation 22:16

            41. Deuteronomy 18:15…”This is of a truth that prophet.”…John 6:14

            42. Deuteronomy 18:15-16…”Had ye believed Moses, ye would believe me.”…John 5:45-47

            43. Deuteronomy 18:18…Sent by the Father to speak His word…John 8:28, 29

            44. Deuteronomy 18:19…Whoever will not hear must bear his sin…John 12:15

            45. Deuteronomy 21:13-23…As a prophet…John 6:14; 7:40, Acts 3:22,23

            46. Deuteronomy 21:23…Cursed is he that hangs on a tree…Galatians 3:10-13

            47. Ruth 4:4-9…Christ, our kinsman, has redeemed us…Ephesians 1:3-7

            48. 1 Samuel 2:10…Shall be an anointed King to the Lord…Matthew 28:18; John 12:15

            49. 2 Samuel 7:12…David’s Seed…Matthew 1:1

            50. 2 Samuel 7:14a…The Son of God… Luke 1:32

            51. 2 Samuel 7:16…David’s house established forever…Luke 3:31; Rev. 22:16

            52. 2 Samuel 23:2-4…would be the “Rock”…1 Corinthians 10:4

            53. 2 Samuel 23:2-4…would be as the “light of the morning”…Revelation 22:16

            54. 2 Kings 2:11…The bodily ascension to heaven illustrated…Luke 24:51

            55. 1 Chronicles 17:11…David’s Seed…Matthew 1:1; 9:27

            56. 1 Chronicles 17:12, 13a…To reign on David’s throne forever…Luke 1:32, 33

            57. 1 Chronicles 17:13a…”I will be His Father, He…my Son.”…Hebrews 1:5

            58. Job 19:23-27…The Resurrection predicted…John 5:24-29

            59. Psalms 2:1-3…The enmity of kings foreordained…Acts 4:25-28

            60. Psalms 2:2…To own the title, Anointed (Christ)…Acts 2:36

            61. Psalms 2:6…His Character-Holiness…John 8:46; Rev. 3:7

            62. Psalms 2:6…To own the title King…Matthew 2:2

            63. Psalms 2:7…Declared the Beloved Son…Matthew 3:17

            64. Psalms 2:7, 8…The Crucifixion and Resurrection intimated…Acts 13:29-33

            65. Psalms 2:12…Life comes through faith in Him…John 20:31

            66. Psalms 8:2…The mouths of babes perfect His praise…Matthew 21:16

            67. Psalms 8:5, 6…His humiliation and exaltation…Luke 24:50-53; 1 Corinthians 15:27

            68. Psalms 16:10…Was not to see corruption…Acts 2:31

            69. Psalms 16:9-11…Was to arise from the dead…John 20:9

            70. Psalms 17;15…The resurrection predicted…Luke 24:6

            71. Psalms 22:1…Forsaken because of sins of others…2 Corinthians 5:21

            72. Psalms 22:1…Words spoken from Calvary, “My God…” Mark 15:34

            73. Psalms 22:2…Darkness upon Calvary…Matthew 27:45

            74. Psalms 22:7…They shoot out the lip and shake the head…Matthew 27:39

            75. Psalms 22:8..” He trusted in God, let Him deliver Him “…Matthew 27:43

            76. Psalms 22:9……Born the Savior……Luke 2:7

            77. Psalms 22:14…Died of a broken (ruptured) heart…John 19:34

            78. Psalms 22:14,15…Suffered agony on Calvary…Mark 15:34-37

            79. Psalms 22:15……..He thirsted……..John 19:28

            80. Psalms 22:16…They pierced His hands and His feet….John 19:34,37;20:27

            81. Psalms 22:17,18…Stripped Him before the stares of men…Luke 23:34,35

            82. Psalms 22:18…..They parted His garments…..John 19:23,24

            83. Psalms 22:20,21…He committed Himself to God…Luke23:46

            84. Psalms 22:20,21..Satanic power bruising the Redeemer’s heel.. Hebrews 2:14

            85. Psalms 22:22…..His Resurrection declared…..John 20:17

            86. Psalms 22:27…He shall be the governor of the nations…Col 1:16

            87. Psalms 22:31……”It is finished”……John 19:30

            88. Psalms 23:1….”I am the Good Shepherd”….John 10:11

            89. Psalms 24:3……His exaltation predicted……Acts 1:11; Phil. 2:9

            90. Psalms 27:12…Accused by false witnesses…Matthew 26:60,61, Mark 14:57,58

            91. Psalms 30:3……His resurrection predicted……Acts 2:32

            92. Psalms 31:5…”Into thy hands I commit my spirit”…Luke 23:46

            93. Psalms 31:11…His acquaintances fled from Him…Mark 14:50

            94. Psalms 31:13…They took counsel to put Him to death…John 11:53

            95. Psalms 31:14,15…” He trusted in God, let Him deliver him”…Matthew 27:43

            96. Psalms 34:20…..Not a bone of Him broken…..John 19:31-36

            97. Psalms 35:11….False witnesses rose up against Him….Matthew 26:59

            98. Psalms 35:19…He was hated without a cause…John 15:25

            99. Psalms 38:11…..His friends stood afar off…..Luke 23:49

            100. Psalms 40:2-5…The joy of His resurrection predicted…John 20:20

          • David Cromie

            Despite the constant claims of ‘testable scientific evidence for the reality of God’ from christers, they have great difficulty in producing it, nay, they find it impossible!

          • Jeff O

            I don’t. Where there is no concrete evidence for the veracity of any claim that supposed supernatural entities exist, and no convincing attempt to provide it, there is thus no reason to accept any such claim as true.

            —————————————

            What is “concrete evidence”? Like something you can see, measure, smell, hear, like feeling with your senses?

          • David Cromie

            I agree totally with your first paragraph. But I think you know the answer to your question, yourself.

          • Jeff O

            I just copied your reply, and that is the first paragraph.

            My response to that is my question to you.

            What is the answer? Kindly elaborate.

          • David Cromie

            Are you joking? Your silly question needs no reply!

          • Jeff O

            How is it silly?

            So you totally agree that to prove something exists. Is that you should be able to see it, quantify it, weigh it, smell it, taste it. All senses. Tangible things.

            So you don’t believe in all Intangible things? Because there is no way to prove it according to what you say is the basis of proof.

          • David Cromie

            Are you really that ignorant? Gravity, for example, is ‘intangible’ (have you ever been sold 20kilos of gravity?), yet it and be demonstrated and measured, whether at sea level or 50,000 ft up a mountain.

          • Jeff O

            Exactly the point.

            You say that God doesn’t exist. Because there is no proof that he exists.

            Yet observing the physical universe and its awe inspiring qualities shows us that God do exists.

            The creator left his trademark on each of his creation.

            Observing each and every creation in the Universe shows how intelligent the designer of such is.

          • David Cromie

            The only way to understand the physical universe, is by using the methods of science, which are signally missing from the so-called ‘bible’. Was your supposed ‘god’ ignorant of the ways of science when it inspired the biblical scribes to invent the Garden of Eden, and Noah’s Flood myths? The Garden of Eden story is not a very promising start to its scientifically rigorous magnum opus!

          • Jeff O

            Do you believe that the Universe had a beginning?

          • David Cromie

            I am not an cosmologist, so what I believe is neither here nor there, in the matter of the origin of the universe. However, from what I read it seems that the Big Bang Theory is as good an explanation as any so far offered. However, scientists do not rest on their laurels, but look for any scientific data that might cause them to fine tune their theories, or, in some cases, ditch them completely.

          • GibbyD

            Also the effects of something also speaks to it’s reality . Consider how The Gospel and believing it , has changed the lives of millions of people throughout the centuries. Those that had a heart change and became “born again” and were delivered from a horrible sinful life and brought to a life of love and grace demonstrated and tested over the rest of their lives.

          • David Cromie

            Believing in any other supposed ‘god’, and there are thousands to choose from, would achieve the same effects in the fervent believer! Why is your particular, favourite, supposed supernatural sky fairy any different from all the rest?

          • GibbyD

            You asked, “Why is your particular, favourite, supposed supernatural sky fairy any different from all the rest?”
            —-I believe you already know the answer to your question, so what that rhetorical ? Jesus is alive !

            You said, ” Believing in any other supposed ‘god’, and there are thousands to choose from, would achieve the same effects in the fervent believer!” — But it really hasn’t

          • David Cromie

            Do you have any compelling, falsifiable, evidence for any of your assertions?

          • GibbyD

            Mathematical statistical probability. The same formula that also debunks Evolution and Atheism .

          • David Cromie

            What does statistics have to do with the existence of any supposed ‘god’, or the coincidental outcomes of such deluded beliefs? Which ‘formula’ can used to debunk Evolution and Atheism?

          • GibbyD

            The chances, or call them odds, of the prophetic events predicted and described in the Bible coming to pass. Counter-wise, that the universe happened spontaneously out of nothing. and more than that, even existence itself being.

          • David Cromie

            The chances are virtually nil! Your second proposition has a lot more going for it. But where is the ‘formula’ you claim exists, the debunks Evolution and Atheism?

          • GibbyD

            You say ” virtually nil”, but they happened anyway

            Cut and pasted for your review. —

            –The Mathematical Impossibility of Evolution–

            “According to the most-widely accepted theory of evolution today, the
            sole mechanism for producing evolution is that of random mutation
            combined with natural selection. Mutations are random changes
            in genetic systems. Natural selection is considered by evolutionists to
            be a sort of sieve, which retains the “good” mutations and allows the
            others to pass away.

            Since random changes in ordered systems almost always will decrease
            the amount of order in those systems, nearly all mutations are harmful
            to the organisms which experience them. Nevertheless, the evolutionist
            insists that each complex organism in the world today has arisen by a
            long string of gradually accumulated good mutations preserved by natural
            selection. No one has ever actually observed a genuine
            mutation occurring in the natural environment which was beneficial (that
            is, adding useful genetic information to an existing genetic code), and
            therefore, retained by the selection process. For some reason, however,
            the idea has a certain persuasive quality about it and seems eminently
            reasonable to many people—until it is examined quantitatively, that is!

            For example, consider a very simple putative organism composed of
            only 200 integrated and functioning parts, and the problem of deriving
            that organism by this type of process. The system presumably must have
            started with only one part and then gradually built itself up over many
            generations into its 200-part organization. The developing organism, at
            each successive stage, must itself be integrated and functioning in its
            environment in order to survive until the next stage. Each successive
            stage, of course, becomes statistically less likely than the preceding
            one, since it is far easier for a complex system to break down than to
            build itself up. A four-component integrated system can more easily
            “mutate” (that is, somehow suddenly change) into a three-component
            system (or even a four-component non-functioning system) than into a
            five-component integrated system. If, at any step in the chain, the
            system mutates “downward,” then it is either destroyed altogether or
            else moves backward, in an evolutionary sense.

            Therefore, the successful production of a 200-component functioning organism requires, at least,
            200 successive, successful such “mutations,” each of which is highly
            unlikely. Even evolutionists recognize that true mutations are very
            rare, and beneficial mutations are extremely rare—not more than one out of a thousand mutations are beneficial, at the very most.

            But let us give the evolutionist the benefit of every consideration.
            Assume that, at each mutational step, there is equally as much chance
            for it to be good as bad. Thus, the probability for the success of each
            mutation is assumed to be one out of two, or one-half. Elementary
            statistical theory shows that the probability of 200 successive
            mutations being successful is then (½)200, or one chance out of 1060. The number 1060,
            if written out, would be “one” followed by sixty “zeros.” In other
            words, the chance that a 200-component organism could be formed by
            mutation and natural selection is less than one chance out of a
            trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion! Lest anyone think that
            a 200-part system is unreasonably complex, it should be noted that even
            a one-celled plant or animal may have millions of molecular “parts.”

            The evolutionist might react by saying that even though any one such
            mutating organism might not be successful, surely some around the world
            would be, especially in the 10 billion years (or 1018 seconds) of assumed earth history. Therefore, let us imagine that every one of the earth’s 1014 square feet of surface harbors a billion (i.e., 109)
            mutating systems and that each mutation requires one-half second
            (actually it would take far more time than this). Each system can thus
            go through its 200 mutations in 100 seconds and then, if it is
            unsuccessful, start over for a new try. In 1018 seconds, there can, therefore, be 1018/102, or 1016,
            trials by each mutating system. Multiplying all these numbers together,
            there would be a total possible number of attempts to develop a
            200-component system equal to 1014 (109) (1016), or 1039 attempts. Since the probability against the success of any one of them is 1060, it is obvious that the probability that just one of these 1039 attempts might be successful is only one out of 1060/1039, or 1021.

            All this means that the chance that any kind of a 200-component
            integrated functioning organism could be developed by mutation and
            natural selection just once, anywhere in the world, in all the assumed
            expanse of geologic time, is less than one chance out of a billion
            trillion. What possible conclusion, therefore, can we derive from such
            considerations as this except that evolution by mutation and natural
            selection is mathematically and logically indefensible!

            Discussion
            In fact, evolutionists themselves have attacked traditional Darwinism on the same basis (see the Wistar Institute Symposium, Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Interpretation of Evolution,
            1967, 140 pp.). While these scientists did not reject evolution itself,
            they did insist that the Darwinian randomness postulate would never
            work.

            Furthermore, since the law of increasing entropy, or the second law
            of thermodynamics, is essentially a statement of probabilities, many
            writers have also used that law itself to show that evolution on any
            significant scale is essentially impossible. Evolutionists have usually
            ignored the arguments or else used vacuous arguments against them
            (“Anything can happen given enough time”; “The earth is an open system,
            so the second law doesn’t apply”; “Order can arise out of chaos through
            dissipative structures”; etc.).

            In the real world of scientific observation, as opposed to
            metaphysical speculation, however, no more complex system can ever
            “evolve” out of a less complex system, so the probability of the
            naturalistic origin of even the simplest imaginary form of life is zero.

            The existence of complexity of any kind is evidence of God and
            creation. “Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these
            things, that bringeth out their host by number: He calleth them all by
            names by the greatness of His might, for that He is strong in power; not
            one faileth” (Isaiah 40:26).

            Prophecies —————-78. Psalms 22:14,15…Suffered agony on Calvary…Mark 15:34-37

            79. Psalms 22:15……..He thirsted……..John 19:28

            80. Psalms 22:16…They pierced His hands and His feet….John 19:34,37;20:27

            81. Psalms 22:17,18…Stripped Him before the stares of men…Luke 23:34,35

            82. Psalms 22:18…..They parted His garments…..John 19:23,24

            83. Psalms 22:20,21…He committed Himself to God…Luke23:46

            84. Psalms 22:20,21..Satanic power bruising the Redeemer’s heel.. Hebrews 2:14

            85. Psalms 22:22…..His Resurrection declared…..John 20:17

            86. Psalms 22:27…He shall be the governor of the nations…Col 1:16

            87. Psalms 22:31……”It is finished”……John 19:30

            88. Psalms 23:1….”I am the Good Shepherd”….John 10:11

            89. Psalms 24:3……His exaltation predicted……Acts 1:11; Phil. 2:9

            90. Psalms 27:12…Accused by false witnesses…Matthew 26:60,61, Mark 14:57,58

            91. Psalms 30:3……His resurrection predicted……Acts 2:32

            92. Psalms 31:5…”Into thy hands I commit my spirit”…Luke 23:46

            93. Psalms 31:11…His acquaintances fled from Him…Mark 14:50

            94. Psalms 31:13…They took counsel to put Him to death…John 11:53

            95. Psalms 31:14,15…” He trusted in God, let Him deliver him”…Matthew 27:43

            96. Psalms 34:20…..Not a bone of Him broken…..John 19:31-36

            97. Psalms 35:11….False witnesses rose up against Him….Matthew 26:59

            98. Psalms 35:19…He was hated without a cause…John 15:25

            99. Psalms 38:11…..His friends stood afar off…..Luke 23:49

            100. Psalms 40:2-5…The joy of His resurrection predicted…John 20:20

            101. Psalms 40:6-8….His delight-the will of the Father….John 4:34

            102. Psalms 40:9….He was to preach the Righteousness in Israel….Matthew 4:17

            103. Psalms 40:14…Confronted by adversaries in the Garden…John

            104. Psalms 41:9…..Betrayed by a familiar friend…..John 13:18

            105. Psalms 45:2…Words of Grace come from His lips.. Luke 4:22

            106. Psalms 45:6…To own the title, God or Elohim…Hebrews 1:8

            107. Psalms 45:7…A special anointing by the Holy Spirit…Matthew3:16; Hebrews1:9

            108. Psalms 45:7,8…Called the Christ (Messiah or Anointed)…Luke 2:11

            109. Psalms 49-15…His Resurrection…Acts 2:27; 13:35, Mark 16:6

            110. Psalms 55:12-14…Betrayed by a friend, not an enemy…John 13:18

            111. Psalms 55:15…Unrepentant death of the Betrayer…Matthew 27:3-5; Acts 1:16-19

            112. Psalms 68:18…To give gifts to men…Ephesians 4:7-16

            113. Psalms 68:18…Ascended into Heaven…Luke 24:51

            114. Psalms 69:4…Hated without a cause…John 15:25

            115. Psalms 69:8…A stranger to own brethren…Luke 8;20,21

            116. Psalms 69:9…Zealous for the Lord’s House…John 2:17

            117. Psalms 69:14-20…Messiah’s anguish of soul before crucifixion…Matthew 26:36-45

            118. Psalms 69:20…”My soul is exceeding sorrowful.”…Matthew
            26:38117. Psalms 69:14-20…Messiah’s anguish of soul before
            crucifixion…Matthew 26:36-45

            118. Psalms 69:20…”My soul is exceeding sorrowful.”…Matthew 26:38

            119. Psalms 69:21…Given vinegar in thirst…Matthew 27:34

            120. Psalms 69:26…The Savior given and smitten by God…John 17:4; 18:11

            121. Psalms 72:10,11…Great persons were to visit Him…Matthew 2:1-11

            122. Psalms 72:16…The corn of wheat to fall into the Ground…John 12:24

            123. Psalms 72:17…His name, Yinon, will produce offspring…John 1:12,13

            124. Psalms 72:17…All nations shall be blessed by Him…Acts 2:11,12,41

            125. Psalms 78:1.2…He would teach in parables…Matthew 13:34-35

            126. Psalms 78:2b…To speak the Wisdom of God with authority…Matthew 7:29

            127. Psalms 88:8…They stood afar off and watched…Luke 23:49

            128. Psalms 89:26…Messiah will call God His Father…Matthew 11:27

            129. Psalms 89:27…Emmanuel to be higher than earthly kings…Luke 1:32,33

            130. Psalms 89:35-37…David’s Seed, throne, kingdom endure forever…Luke 1:32,33

            131. Psalms 89:36-37…His character-Faithfulness…Rev. 1:5

            132. Psalms 90:2…He is from everlasting (Micah 5:2)…John 1:1

            133. Psalms 91:11,12…Identified as Messianic; used to tempt Christ…Luke 4;10,11

            134. Psalms 97:9…His exaltation predicted…Acts 1:11;Ephesians 1:20

            135. Psalms 100:5…His character-Goodness…Matthew 19:16,17

            136. Psalms 102:1-11…The Suffering and Reproach of Calvary…John 21:16-30

            137. Psalms 102:16…Son of Man comes in Glory…Luke 21:24

            Revelation 12:5-10

            138. Psalms 102:25-27…Messiah is the Preexistent Son…Hebrews 1:10-12

            139. Psalms 109:4…Prays for His enemies…Luke 23:34

            140. Psalms 109:7,8…Another to succeed Judas…Acts 1:16-20

            141. Psalms 109:25…Ridiculed…Matthew 27:39

            142. Psalms 110:1…Son of David…Matthew 22:43

            143. Psalms 110:1…To ascend to the right-hand of the Father…Mark16:19

            144. Psalms 110:1…David’s son called Lord…Matthew 22:44,45

            145. Psalms 110:4…A priest after Melchizedek’s order…Hebrews 6:20

            146. Psalms 112:4…His character-Compassionate, Gracious, et al… Matthew 9;36

            147. Psalms 118:17,18…Messiah’s Resurrection assured…Luke 24:5-7;1 Corinthians 15:20

            148. Psalms 118:22,23…The rejected stone is Head of the corner…Matthew 21:42,43

            149. Psalms 118:26a…The Blessed One presented to Israel…Matthew 21:9

            150. Psalms 118:26b…To come while Temple standing…Matthew 21;12-15

          • David Cromie

            If this is your mathematical formula for the debunking of Evolution and Atheism, then you are certainly away with the fairies!

            As soon as I saw that you were praying biblical quotes in aid of your delusions, I realised that you do not understand that it is fallacious to quote the so-called ‘bible’ as proof of itself.

            So I ask you again, can you provide the independent testable, falsifiable, evidence for the reality of the alleged ‘god’ you believe exists? Without such evidence, all the rest is nought but delusional yammering!

          • GibbyD

            There were prophecies given , some thousands of years before, and then their fulfillment in the life of The LORD Jesus Christ . It would be virtually impossible for even a few of those prophecies to have been fulfilled but Jesus fulfills them all . It was explained why it never could have been contrived or forged. That in itself would have been impossible for the reasons stated .

            So I ask you again, can you provide the independent testable, falsifiable, evidence for the reality of the alleged evolution you believe exists? Without such evidence, all the rest is nought but delusional
            yammering!

          • David Cromie

            Sorry to debunk your fond delusions. The scribes who concocted the NT invented a man-god, they called JC, in whom to invest the myth of the ‘messiah’, in order to claim that the ‘prophesy’ was fulfilled. This ploy ignores the fact that there were several men-gods, dating from before the 1st cent C.E. and afterwards. These tended to claim that they were the ‘messiah’, but were rejected by the Jews. So why would they accept a bogus mythical man-god that could not even be shown to have existed? The same sleight of hand was used to ‘fulfil’ any other appropriate ‘prophesy’ that took their fancy, for the duping of a mostly illiterate and credulous audience.

            As for Evolution, science has already done the job of verifying that theory for me, and for you.

          • GibbyD

            You said , ” science has already done the job of verifying that theory (of evolution) for me, and for you.” —- No, they haven’t .

            You said , “scribes who concocted the NT invented a man-god, they called JC, in whom to invest the myth of the ‘messiah’, in order to claim that the ‘prophesy’ was fulfilled,” —– That , as was explained was impossible and for the reasons that have already been explained. Secular researchers who do not profess to be believers , have already admitted that the writers of the New Testament could not have all contrived together to forge a document the way you are describing. If there ever was a conspiracy to do such a thing they would have needed more than just a human mind to do it . One “prophecy” is not what we are talking about anyway. Concerning The LORD Jesus Christ , here are more than 333.

            151. Psalms 132:11…The Seed of David (the fruit of His Body)…Luke 1:32

            152. Psalms 138:1-6…The supremacy of David’s Seed amazes kings… Matthew 2:2-6

            153. Psalms 147:3,6…The earthly ministry of Christ described…Luke 4:18

            154. Psalms 1:23…He will send the Spirit of God… John 16;7

            155. Proverbs 8:22-23…The Messiah would be from everlasting…John 17:5

            156. Proverbs 30:4…Declared to be the Son of God…John 3:13, Romans 1:2-4, 10:6-9, 2 Peter 1:17

            157. Song of Solomon 5:16…The altogether lovely One…John 1:17

            158. Isaiah 2:2-4…Repentance for the nations…Luke 24:47

            159. Isaiah 4:2…Messiah reigning

            160. Isaiah 5:1-6…Son of God’s vineyard: a parable of judgment

            161. Isaiah 6:1…When Isaiah saw His glory… John 12:40-41

            162. Isaiah 6:9-10…Parables fall on deaf ears…Matthew 13:13-15

            163. Isaiah 6:9-12…Blinded to Christ and deaf to His words…Acts 28:23-29

            164. Isaiah 7:14…To be born of a virgin…Luke 1:35

            165. Isaiah 7:14…To be Emmanuel-God with us… Matthew 1:18-23

            166. Isaiah 8:8…Called Emmanuel…Matthew 28:20

            167. Isaiah 8:14…A stone of stumbling, a Rock of offense… 1 Pet. 2:8

            168. Isaiah 9:1,2…His ministry to begin in Galilee…Matthew 4:12-17

            169. Isaiah 9:6…A child born-Humanity…Luke 1:31

            170. Isaiah 9:6…A Son given-Deity…Luke 1:32; John 1;14; 1 Tim. 3:16

            171. Isaiah 9:6…Declared to be the Son of God with power… Romans. 1:3,4

            172. Isaiah 9:6…The Wonderful One, Peleh…Luke 4:22

            173. Isaiah 9:6…The Counselor, Yaatz…Matthew 13:54

            174. Isaiah 9:6…The Mighty God, El Gibor…Matthew 11:20

            175. Isaiah 9:6…The Everlasting Father, Avi Adth…John 8:58

            176. Isaiah 9:6…The Prince of Peace, Sar Shalom…John . 16:33177.
            Isaiah 9:7…To establish an everlasting kingdom…Luke 1:32-33

            178. Isaiah 9:7…His Character-Just…John 5:30

            179. Isaiah 9:7…No end to his Government, Throne, and Peace…Luke 1:32-33

            180. Isaiah 11:1…Called a Nazarene-the Branch, Netzer…Matthew 2:23

            181. Isaiah 11:1…A rod out of Jesse-Son of Jesse…Luke 3:23,32

            182. Isaiah 11:2…The anointed One by the Spirit…Matthew 3;16,17

            183. Isaiah 11:2…His Character-Wisdom, Understanding, et al….John 4:4-26

            184. Isaiah 11:4…His Character-Truth…John 14:6

            185. Isaiah 11:10…The Gentiles seek Him…John 12:18-21

            186. Isaiah 12:2…Called Jesus-Yeshua (salvation)…Matthew 1:21

            187. Isaiah 16:4,5…Reigning in mercy…Luke 1:31-33

            188. Isaiah 22:21-25…Peg in a sure place…Revelation 3:7

            189. Isaiah 25:8…The Resurrection predicted…I Corinthians 15:54

            190. Isaiah 26:19…His power of Resurrection predicted…John 11:43,44

            191. Isaiah 28:16…The Messiah is the precious corner stone…Acts 4:11,12

            192. Isaiah 29:13…He indicated hypocritical obedience to His Word…Matthew 15:7-9

            193. Isaiah 29:14…The wise are confounded by the Word…I Corinthians 1:18-31

            194. Isaiah 32:2…A Refuge-A man shall be a hiding place…Matthew 23:37

            195. Isaiah 33:22…Son of the Highest…Luke 1:32; 1 Timothy 1:17 6:15

            196. Isaiah 35:4…He will come and save you…Matthew 1:21

            197. Isaiah 35:5…To have a ministry of miracles…Matthew 11:4-6

            198. Isaiah 40:3,4…Preceded by forerunner…John 1:23

            199. Isaiah 40:9…”Behold your God.”…John 1:36;19:14

            200. Isaiah 40:11…A shepherd-compassionate life-giver…John 10:10-18

          • GibbyD

            301. Daniel 2:34-35…Stone cut without hands…Acts 4:10-12

            302. Daniel 2:44,45…His Kingdom Triumphant…Luke 1:33, 1 Corinthians 15:24, Revelation 11:15

            303. Dan. 7:13-14a…He would ascend into heaven… Acts 1:9-11

            304. Dan. 7:13-14b…Highly exalted… Ephesians 1:20-22

            305. Dan. 7:13-14c…His dominion would be everlasting… Luke 1:31-33

            306. Daniel 7:27…Kingdom for the Saints…Luke 1:33, 1 Corinthians 15:24, Revelation 11:15

            307. Dan. 9:24a…To make an end to sins… Galatians 1:3-5

            308. Dan. 9:24b…He would be holy… Luke 1:35

            309. Dan. 9:25…Announced to his people 483 years, to the exact day,
            after the decree to rebuild the city of Jerusalem… John 12:12-13

            310. Dan. 9:26a…Killed… Matthew 27:35

            311. Dan. 9:26b…Die for the sins of the world… Hebrews 2:9

            312. Dan. 9:26c…Killed before the destruction of the temple… Matthew 27:50-51

            313. Dan. 10:5-6…Messiah in a glorified state… Rev. 1:13-16

            314. Hosea 3:5…Israel restored…John 18:37, Romans 11:25-27

            315. Hosea 11:1, Numbers 24:8…Flight to Egypt…Matthew 2:14

            316. Hosea 13:14…He would defeat death… 1 Corinthians 15:55-57

            317. Joel 2:28-32…Promise of the Spirit…Acts 2:17-21, Romans 10:13

            318. Joel 2:32…Offer salvation to all mankind… Romans. 10:12-13

            319. Micah 2:12-13…Israel Regathered…John 10:14,26

            320. Micah 4:1-8…The Kingdom established – place of Birth Bethlehem…Luke 1:33, Matthew 2:1, Luke 2:4,10,11

            321. Micah 5:2a…Born in Bethlehem… Matthew 2:1-2

            322. Micah 5:2b…God’s servant… John 15:10

            323. Micah 5:2c…from everlasting… John 8:58

            324. Haggai 2:6-9…He would visit the second Temple… Luke 2:27-32

            325. Haggai 2:23…Descendant of Zerubbabel… Luke 3:23-27

            326. Joel 2:28-32…Promise of the Spirit…Acts 2:17-21, Romans 10:13

            327. Amos 8:9…The Sun Darkened…Matthew 24:29, Acts 2:20, Revelation 6:12

            328. Amos 9:11-12…Restoration of tabernacle…Acts 14:16-18

            329. Habakkuk 2:14…Earth filled with knowledge of the glory of the Lord…Romans 11:26, Revelation 21:23-26

            330. Zechariah 2:10-13…The Lamb on the Throne…Revelation 5:13, 6:9, 21:24

            331. Zechariah 3:8…God’s servant… John 17:4

            332. Zechariah 6:12-13…Priest and King… Hebrews 8:1

            333. Zechariah 9:9a…Greeted with rejoicing in Jerusalem… Matthew 21:8-10

            334. Zechariah 9:9b…Beheld as King… John 12:12-13

            335. Zechariah 9:9c…The Messiah would be just… John 5:30

            336. Zechariah 9:9d…The Messiah would bring salvation… Luke 19:10

            337. Zechariah 9:9e…The Messiah would be humble… Matthew 11:29

            338. Zechariah 9:9f…Presented to Jerusalem riding on a donkey… Matthew 21:6-9

            339. Zechariah 10:4…The cornerstone… Ephesians 2:20

            340. Zechariah 11:4-6a…At His coming, Israel to have unfit leaders… Matthew 23:1-4

            341. Zechariah 11:4-6b…Rejection causes God to remove His protection.. Luke 19:41-44

            342. Zechariah 11:4-6c…Rejected in favor of another king… John 19:13-15

            343. Zechariah 11:7…Ministry to “poor,” the believing remnant… Matthew 9:35-36

            344. Zechariah 11:8a…Unbelief forces Messiah to reject them… Matthew 23:33

            345. Zechariah 11:8b…Despised… Matthew 27:20

            346. Zechariah 11:9…Stops ministering to the those who rejected Him… Matthew 13:10-11

            347. Zechariah 11:10-11a…Rejection causes God to remove protection… Luke 19:41-44

            348. Zechariah 11:10-11b…The Messiah would be God… John 14:7

            349. Zechariah 11:12-13a…Betrayed for thirty pieces of silver… Matthew 26:14-15

            350. Zechariah 11:12-13b…Rejected… Matthew 26:14-15

            351. Zechariah 11:12-13c…Thirty pieces of silver thrown into the house of the Lord… Matthew 27:3-5

            352. Zechariah 11:12-13d…The Messiah would be God… John 12:45

            353. Zechariah 12:10a…The Messiah’s body would be pierced… John 19:34-37

            354. Zechariah 12:10b…The Messiah would be both God and man… John 10:30

            355. Zechariah 12:10c…The Messiah would be rejected… John 1:11

            356. Zechariah 13:7a…God’s will He die for mankind… John 18:11

            357. Zechariah 13:7b…A violent death… Matthew 27:35

            358. Zechariah 13:7c…Both God and man.. John 14:9

            359. Zechariah 13:7d…Israel scattered as a result of rejecting Him… Matthew 26:31-56

            360. Malachi 3:1a…Messenger to prepare the way for Messiah… Matthew 11:10

            361. Malachi 3:1b…Sudden appearance at the temple… Mark 11:15-16

            362. Malachi 3:1c…Messenger of the new covenant… Luke 4:43

            363. Malachi 3:3…Our Sins Are Purged…Luke 1:78, John 1:9; 12:46, 2 Peter 1:19, Revelation 2:28; 19:11-16; 22:16

            364. Malachi 4:5…Forerunner in the spirit of Elijah… Matthew 3:1-2

            365. Malachi 4:6…Forerunner would turn many to righteousness… Luke 1:16-17

          • David Cromie

            Why would you suppose that even more random biblical quotes adds anything to the discussion?

            If you really wish to bring anything of significance to the table, just answer my question.

          • GibbyD

            The verses of Scripture I have listed are not “random”. They are specific and concern the prophecies about The Messiah and their fulfillment by The Person, The LORD Jesus Christ. They are germane and add evidence for believing that The Bible was given by God and not man. (2 Timothy 3:16)KJB. The math , the math , the math !!! DO THE MATH !!!!!!! Don’t let the devil rob you anymore of what you can have in Christ even everlasting and abundant life and LOVE. (John 3:16,17)KJB

          • David Cromie

            Ah! The good old fallback position of the christer, the fallacious circular argument!

          • GibbyD

            Explain to me how any of my last past was a ” circular argument” ? You , I guess , do not know what a circular argument is.

          • David Cromie

            It seems that you are the person that has no idea what a circular argument is, as you claim ‘authority’ for your beliefs, derived from the so-called ‘bible’. So I think you will find that the boot is on the other foot!

          • GibbyD

            You just are not paying attention. I gave reasons why the Bible is not an ordinary book of books because of the number of prophecies that were fulfilled. I showed you that mere human minds could have composed it . You ignored the evidence .

          • David Cromie

            I suspect you know nothing of the scientific method, you may even hold that science is hocus-pocus (most likely scenario), but what do you suppose random quotes from a book of myths, legends and folklore achieves when discussing a scientific theory?

            As for so-called biblical ‘prophesies’, if you re-read my post you will see I covered any and all of them there. As for the ‘seed of David’, I was not aware that David was ‘god’ and a virgin, or even the ‘holy’ ghost that is supposed to have been the provider of the ‘seed’ that resulted in the birth of JC.! Get real!

          • GibbyD

            The Bible mentions “science” and also science that is falsely called science. God made it all and knows how it all works.
            You never ” covered” any of the 365 Prophecies concerning The Messiah and the fulfillment of them in Christ .
            Your other thoughts concerning your understanding of King David and The Holy Ghost are that of any unsaved man. They have been answered and explained many many times. If you really have a legitimate question about things , you can find the answers in many places that are set up to answer them. One such place is carm dot org . ICR dot org is another.

            Life is short , death is sure. Sin the cause, Christ The CURE ! ” Believe on the LORD Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..” (Acts 16:31)KJB. Don’t let the devil drag you where he is going .

          • David Cromie

            Where, in the so-called ‘bible’, is the subject ‘science’ dealt with – wisdom and understanding, in spite of what some christers claim, do not cover the subject adequately, nor could they in a prescientific biblical context? Where is the science of human biology dealt with, or astrophysics, and so on?

            What is the cure for ignorance of the history of the ‘bible’, coupled with superstitious delusions?

          • GibbyD

            “O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:”——————————————– The Bible is declaring that there is good science and that there is “science” that is falsely called that. The theory of Evolution is of such false science. There is much scientific information in the Bible. Many things in our natural world were revealed in the Bible even before man ever discovered them. Do a search on that and you will be surprised. —————————————————————–

            “I believe in a literal creation as
            described by Genesis. However, creation (like all biblical miracles) is
            not science either. That doesn’t mean that they didn’t happen. They did
            happen. But it’s not science.” – Sam M.

            The word “science” simply means “knowledge.” The
            Genesis creation account scientifically stands rock solid. Unlike
            Darwinian evolution, it passes the scientific test, because creation can
            be both observed and tested–with creatures having male and female,
            each bringing forth after its own kind, just as Genesis says. Knowledge
            that the universe had an initial cause is not a matter of faith, but of
            science. We can know that it was created, because the alternative is
            utterly unscientific, absolutely impossible, and ludicrous to a point of
            insanity.

          • David Cromie

            Your so-called quote is not from any version of the ‘bible’ I have ever read. Did you make it up yourself, of is it from a book of ‘quotes’ you would like to see included in the ‘bible’?

            Sam M (why not the full name?) is as deluded as you are. It seems that neither you nor SM understand that claims for ‘knowledge’ have to be argued for, giving the (falsifiable) evidence relied on, and where ‘belief’ and ‘faith’ are certainly not valid ingredients

            The fact that animals procreate is not proof of anything other than that they have this capacity, all else being equal. Anyone could notice this fact, but only a fool would claim it as proof that some supposed supernatural entity invented copulation.

          • GibbyD

            The translation that you say you are not familiar with, has been around for over 400 years. The King James Bible.

            As I said , there is much scientific information in the Bible. Many things in our
            natural world were revealed in the Bible even before man ever discovered
            them. Do a search on that and you will be surprised.

            The following is by
            Dr. Elizabeth Mitchell
            on
            September 8, 2014
            “Science Is Not About Certainty” a noted theoretical physicist writes. For many people that might be a startling claim.

            Rovelli makes clear that the essence of
            science is gathering data and interpreting that data in ways that are
            often insufficient, limited, and changeable.

            Dr. Carlo Rovelli—one of the originators of “loop quantum gravity
            theory”—recently published an article discussing the nature of science.
            The piece, called “Science Is Not About Certainty,” makes some points that biblical creationists have been pointing out for a long time.

            Physicist Rovelli is an evolutionist and does not in the piece
            explore his personal religious beliefs (though he does disparage
            religious claims regarding certainty and truth), but he makes some
            refreshingly honest points about science. For one thing, Rovelli makes
            clear that the essence of science is gathering data and interpreting
            that data in ways that are often insufficient, limited, and changeable:

            We have observations, we have data, data require
            organizing into theories. So then we have theories. These theories are
            suggested or produced from the data somehow, then checked in terms of
            the data. Then time passes, we have more data, theories evolve, we throw
            away a theory, and we find another theory that’s better, a better
            understanding of the data, and so on and so forth.

            The data scientists observe must be interpreted, and Rovelli makes
            clear that a scientist’s philosophy will affect the interpretation.
            “Since theories change, the empirical content is the solid part of what
            science is,” he says. After bombastic statements by so many
            evolutionists—such as Bill Nye in the Nye-Ham Debate
            or representatives of the National Center for Science Education, who
            declare that students should never be taught that “theories” like
            molecules-to-man evolution and the big
            bang are at all controversial—the admission that scientific
            interpretations of data are fallible, changeable, and influenced by
            philosophical understanding is refreshing.

            “The deepest misunderstanding about science,” Dr. Rovelli writes, “is
            the idea that science is about certainty. Science is not about
            certainty. Science is about finding the most reliable way of thinking at
            the present level of knowledge. Science is extremely reliable; it’s not
            certain.” He then makes a statement that runs contrary to the
            declarations of many evolutionary drumbeaters and media pundits:

            The very expression “scientifically proven” is a
            contradiction in terms. There’s nothing that is scientifically proven.
            The core of science is the deep awareness that we have wrong ideas, we
            have prejudices. We have ingrained prejudices.

            Dr. Rovelli indicates that a scientist’s preconceived
            notions—prejudices about the nature of reality—typically not only
            influence but even limit his interpretation of data, even causing him to
            overlook important scientific truths, including undiscovered major
            scientific principles.

            When it comes to understanding the nature of the unobservable past,
            the presuppositions or prejudices of scientists affect how they
            interpret data relevant to our origins. If a scientist presupposes that
            nothing supernatural exists and is willing to accept only naturalistic
            explanations for our origins, then that scientist ignores an important
            part of reality—the Creator God—who created all that exists, including
            the laws of nature—those laws of science that make experimental science
            logical, repeatable, and predictable in the first place.

            Evolutionary scientists, for instance, try to come up with
            naturalistic explanations for the existence of diverse, complex forms of
            life and for life itself even though biological science does not
            provide observational evidence to support either abiogenesis or
            molecules-to-man evolution. By ignoring the role of our Creator in the
            origin of life and all things, they are ignoring the reality that makes
            origins make sense.

            The Importance of Seeing the Big Picture

            Dr. Rovelli also writes about the importance of being willing to
            change one’s prejudices and how so doing can enable a scientist to see
            the big picture. Scientists who thought “outside the box” like this
            included Einstein and Newton. Rovelli indicates that their
            philosophy—their willingness to think outside the normal understanding
            of the world—enabled them to discern hitherto unthought-of scientific
            truths. Author of a book about Greek philosopher Anaximander—perhaps the
            first scientist on record to describe correctly the earth as a sphere
            in space—Dr. Rovelli points out that Anaximander had to change the way
            he thought about the physical world in order to correctly understand it.

            When Dr. Rovelli tries to explain the apparent conflict between
            “science” and “religion,” he unfortunately forgets that evolutionary
            scientists are sadly not in the habit of admitting that “scientific
            thinking is a constant reminder to us that we don’t know the answers” (emphasis Rovelli’s). How often do we hear evolutionists declare that they know molecules-to-man evolution (and
            abiogenesis, and the big bang, and millions of years, and so forth) to
            be true? That only the details of how these processes played out in the
            past remain to be discovered? Rovelli points out that “religion” claims
            to “know” whereas science admits that it doesn’t know. By that criterion, evolutionary science is much more religion than science.

            For all his refreshing insight about the uncertainty of
            scientific theories and interpretations, Dr. Rovelli seems to
            misunderstand the nature of the certainty available in religion, or
            rather in biblical Christianity. The Bible is the revelation of our
            Creator God to mankind. The eternal God of the Bible, our Creator, was
            the eyewitness to all of history. Nothing that He has told us in His
            Word contradicts the information, the data, gathered by experimental
            science. In fact, it was faith that our Creator was wise, logical, and
            consistent that motivated many Bible-believing scientists like Isaac
            Newton to search for the laws of science, or the laws of nature, that
            God created to govern the universe He had made.

            The Bible Is Not a Science Textbook, But It Is True and Reliable

            That is not to say, however, that biblical Christianity claims to
            supply all scientific knowledge; such a claim would be silly. The Bible
            is not a science textbook, and there is a vast amount of scientific
            knowledge to be gained about ourselves, our world, and our universe. In
            fact, the scientific method is effective because God created an orderly
            universe that functions in accord with the scientific laws He put in
            place. Science works because God created! A biblical understanding of Creation can even help scientists make predictions and avoid erroneous thinking, such as the mistaken notion that some organs are useless vestigial remnants of our supposed evolutionary past.

            The history in the Bible—information concerning the Creation, the
            global Flood, and the age of the earth, for instance—is a reliable
            yardstick by which to evaluate many scientific theories and eliminate
            those that clearly violate God’s account of our past. Worldview does
            affect how scientists interpret what they observe, and Dr. Rovelli seems
            to recognize that, at least within limits.

            “To sum up, science is not about data; it’s not about the empirical
            content,” Dr. Rovelli writes. He encourages scientists to embrace
            philosophy, to allow their “vision of the world” to expand. To
            acknowledge that “they [as scientists] have a head full of ideas about
            what philosophy they’re using” whether they realize it or not. He adds,
            “They’re taking a position without knowing that there are many other
            possibilities around that might work much better and might be more
            interesting for them.”

            God . . . has left us an eyewitness
            account of our origins and the early history of the earth in Genesis, a
            history that is consistent with the observable facts of science.

            The only true account of our origins is that provided by God in the
            Bible. Therefore, the only worldview that can reliably guide scientists
            to conclusions about our origin and nature that are actually true is one that does not violate biblical history—the
            yardstick by which to assess ideas relevant to the unobservable past.
            If only all scientists wishing to explain our origins would allow their
            vision to include an understanding that the physical universe was
            brought into being by a Creator God, a God who has left us an eyewitness
            account of our origins and the early history of the earth in Genesis, a
            history that is consistent with the observable facts of science.

          • David Cromie

            I no longer have a copy of the so-called ‘bible’, so I cannot check the reference you give.

            I have never claimed that science is about certainty. Indeed, I contend that a scientific law is only as reliable as far as it was last applied successfully.

            As for ‘scientific’ information in the ‘bible’, I suspect that there is more reliable scientific fact in any well researched science fiction novel!!

          • GibbyD

            if you have a computer , you can check the fact that The King James Bible , the most trusted and most popular translation of all time , includes the word “science” and makes remarks concerning “science” that is falsely so called .

            2.

            Creation is made of particles, indiscernible to our eyes (Hebrews 11:3). Not until the 19th century was it discovered that all visible matter consists of invisible elements.

          • David Cromie

            I can see confirmation bias at work here! Does the so-called ‘bible’ give any examples of ‘false science’, or how it may be detected?

          • GibbyD

            “..avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith…” ( 1st Timothy 6:20,21)KJB

            I am sure you can think of some yourself.

          • Ken Campbell

            Perhaps you can provide an example of an accurate scientific statement in the Bible

          • GibbyD

            1.

            The earth free-floats in space (Job 26:7),
            affected only by gravity. While other sources declared the earth sat on
            the back of an elephant or turtle, or was held up by Atlas, the Bible
            alone states what we now know to be true – “He hangs the earth on
            nothing.”

          • Ken Campbell

            Hardly. This is not a scientific statement. It is a poetic statement

          • GibbyD

            The Bible specifies the perfect dimensions for a stable water vessel (Genesis 6:15).
            Ship builders today are well aware that the ideal dimension for ship stability is a length six times that of the width. Keep in mind, God told Noah the ideal dimensions for the ark 4,500 years ago

            Creation is made of particles, indiscernible to our eyes (Hebrews 11:3). Not until the 19th century was it discovered that all visible matter consists of invisible elements.

          • Ken Campbell

            Again, there is a difference between good advice and science. There is also good advice in the “Joy of Cooking”.

          • GibbyD

            How does knowing that matter is made of invisible particles equal to giving good advise ? The facts are that man was not aware about these last two items until many centuries after the Bible already declared them. Here is another–Oceans contain springs (Job 38:16).
            The ocean is very deep. Almost all the ocean floor is in total darkness
            and the pressure there is enormous. It would have been impossible for
            Job to have explored the “springs of the sea.” Until recently, it was
            thought that oceans were fed only by rivers and rain. Yet in the 1970s,
            with the help of deep diving research submarines that were constructed
            to withstand 6,000 pounds-per-square-inch pressure, oceanographers
            discovered springs on the ocean floors!

          • Ken Campbell

            Actually there are springs on the ocean floor that are very close to the shore, even in the Mediterranean. I will agree that many of the springs were not discovered until more recently. This includes the springs of Bahrain, where the name itself refers to ‘Two Seas’ (one fresh and one salt).

            Trying to fit the Bible into modern science is a silly game, and is not useful to science or to theists.

          • GibbyD

            I was asked to provide examples of science in the Bible. I began to provide them.

            Blood is the source of life and health (Leviticus 17:11; 14).
            Up until 120 years ago, sick people were “bled” and many died as a
            result (e.g. George Washington). Today we know that healthy blood is
            necessary to bring life-giving nutrients to every cell in the body. God
            declared that “the life of the flesh is in the blood” long before
            science understood its function.

          • David Cromie

            These vague claims are hardly pre-scientific let alone scientific. They do not describe the function of the heart, the necessity of oxygen, and blood circulation to distribute it, for example. As for the problems caused by bleeding, it is still used, even today, for some ailments (using leeches), and then there is wholesale ‘bleeding’, so to speak, as in blood transfusions!

          • David Cromie

            Surely, you must realise, it was ‘god’ that invented cookery too, but forgot to ‘inspire’ the scribes to write up its methods in the so-called ‘bible’.

          • GibbyD

            When dealing with disease, clothes and body should be washed under running water (Leviticus 15:13). For centuries people naively washed in standing water. Today we recognize the need to wash away germs with fresh water.

          • Ken Campbell

            One of the components of most religious books is the directions for daily life. Putting sound medical advice into a religious format made it more acceptable.

            The Bible and Qur’an also have comments about eating pork (which was often filled with parasites) and shellfish. This is the ‘sage advice’ section.

          • GibbyD

            You missed the point . Here is another that I was reminded of while reading your comment . — Sanitation industry birthed (Deuteronomy 23:12-13).
            Some 3,500 years ago God commanded His people to have a place outside
            the camp where they could relieve themselves. They were to each carry a
            shovel so that they could dig a hole (latrine) and cover their waste. Up
            until World War I, more soldiers died from disease than war because
            they did not isolate human waste.

          • Ken Campbell

            Both the Qur’an and the Bible have material about good hygiene. This was well established in ancient times.

            Yes, the trenches were a bacteria infested place. More soldiers died of disease then died from the weapons of war. This was not because the knowledge wasn’t there, but rather because the technology wasn’t there.

          • GibbyD

            The Quran is right when it agrees with and repeats what The Bible has said. The fact is that it was revealed 1st and before anyone else in Deuteronomy 23:12-13).
            Some 3,500 years ago

            The Bible states that God created life according to kinds (Genesis 1:24). The fact that God distinguishes kinds,
            agrees with what scientists observe – namely that there are horizontal
            genetic boundaries beyond which life cannot vary. Life produces after
            its own kind. Dogs produce dogs, cats produce cats, roses produce roses.
            Never have we witnessed one kind changing into another kind as
            evolution supposes. There are truly natural limits to biological change.

          • Ken Campbell

            Most religious books have three basic components:

            1. Establish laws including the laws of living and worship
            2. Provide information regarding origins and purposes of existence
            3. Provide spiritual guidance and activities

          • GibbyD

            Yet The Bible goes far beyond any of that . There are mountains on the bottom of the ocean floor (Jonah 2:5-6). Only in the last century have we discovered that there are towering mountains and deep trenches in the depths of the sea.

          • Ken Campbell

            You are certainly making valiant efforts to make the Bible relevant. However, instead of trying to retrofit existing information into Bible script, it would be far more conclusive if you were to make a statement about something that is not yet known but is in the Bible. If you can find a verse saying that they will find life on Mars or that the moon will explode or something, I would be much more impressed

          • GibbyD

            You said, “instead of trying to retrofit existing information into Bible script…” That would be eisegeses and not what I was doing.

            The earlier question from Mr. Cromie was,
            “Where is the science of human biology dealt with, or astrophysics, and so on?” — That was just what I was beginning to provide. Now you change the subject as you see that there is plenty of scientific knowledge in the Bible

            You said, “it would be far more conclusive if you were to make a statement about something that is not yet known but is in the Bible.”
            —- I am almost tempted to think you are just joking about that. There are plenty of things in the Bible about the future and I would take them seriously. I think you know what those things are. Maybe you and others do not know about all of those things, but we who believe , know them and wait in joyous anticipation for their arrival . ( 1st Thessalonians 4:16,17; 1st Corinthians 15:51,52; Titus 2:13)KJB. If you would admit that you are not perfect, that you are a lost sinner and then if you would repent toward God and place your faith and trust toward The LORD Jesus Christ , you too would be looking forward to them those great and wonderful promises of God.

          • David Cromie

            The only thing I see is the fact that you are very deluded if you think the so-called ‘bible’ is some sort of science textbook. I would still love to know where human biology, or astrophysics etc. is outlined/discussed in the ‘bible’. I also asked you for some examples of pseudo science, as defined in the ‘bible’.

          • GibbyD

            The Bible does not state that it is a ” science text book”. The facts that are found in the Bible that relate to science though, are correct. Even more than this is that many of the truths that we know about the natural universe were revealed in the Bible before ” modern ” man discovered them.

            I don’t know what you mean by ” pseudo science”. That seems to me to be a contradiction in terms .

            Our bodies are made from the dust of the ground (Genesis 2:7; 3:19).Scientists have discovered that the human body is comprised of some 28 base and trace elements – all of which are found in the earth.

            The First Law of Thermodynamics established (Genesis 2:1-2).The First Law states that the total quantity of energy and matter in the universe is a constant. One form of energy or matter may be converted into another, but the total quantity always remains the same. Therefore the creation is finished, exactly as God said way back in Genesis.

            The first three verses of Genesis accurately express all known aspects of the creation (Genesis 1:1-3).
            Science expresses the universe in terms of: time, space, matter, and energy. In Genesis chapter one we read: “In the beginning (time) God created the heavens (space) and the earth (matter)…Then God said, “Let there be light (energy).” No other creation account agrees with the observable evidence.

          • David Cromie

            You are absolutely correct, the so-called ‘bible’ is not a science textbook, nor does it contain any real scientific propositions whatsoever!

            As for ‘pseudo science’, did you not claim that the ‘bible’ warns believers against ‘false’ science, or in your words, ‘knowledge’? Provide the irrefutable evidence for your supposed ‘god’s’ real existence, and then there will be no room for ‘pseudo science’.

            In respect of Genesis and your quotes, only a superstitious, scientifically illiterate, idiot would take these as having any scientific content!

          • GibbyD

            The science was provided , you ignored it . The scientific hoaxes , especially as it has to do with evolution, are numerous.

            The math was revealed, you ignored it .

            The scientific facts revealed in the Bible were there long before modern man and scientists discovered them.

            The earth is a sphere (Isaiah 40:22). At a time when many thought the earth was flat, the Bible told us that the earth is spherical.

            Scripture assumes a revolving (spherical) earth (Luke 17:34-36).
            Jesus said that at His return some would be asleep at night while
            others would be working at day time activities in the field. This is a
            clear indication of a revolving earth, with day and night occurring
            simultaneously.

          • David Cromie

            Are you really so desperate as to avail yourself of confirmation bias for your deluded belief that the so-called ‘bible’ is some fount of scientific knowledge?

            ‘Scripture’ does not ‘assume’ anything, that is you reading into it what you want to see and believe. The words ‘sphere’, ‘orb’ and ‘revolve’ do not appear anywhere in the KJ version. After all, the ‘bible’ depicts the earth as merely ‘suspended’ in space with no qualification, not even ‘revolutions’. How scientific is that?

            Before Galileo, it was church dogma that the earth was the centre of the universe, thus no one could scientifically account for night and day, not even the scribes of the OT, nor any inspirational ‘holy’ ghost.

            As pointed out, without an answer to the question of irrefutable, convincing, evidence for the real existence of your favourite, supposed supernatural entities, the ‘book’ of fables, legends, and folklore is of no import for science or reality, whatsoever.

          • GibbyD

            You said,”The words ‘sphere’, ‘orb’ and ‘revolve’ do not appear anywhere in the KJ version.” The Scripture text says “It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:..” —- From God’s perspective and from anyone in space , the Earth is shaped like a circle, as you draw closer , it can be seen as a glob shape. Also, as is pointed out in Luke 17:34-36, both day and night were addressed as occurring at the same time. Jesus knew the Earth revolved.

            You said, ” Before Galileo, it was church dogma that the earth was the centre of the universe,..” —- What that professing “church” or anyone else thought does not matter. It is what the Bible reveals that matters. The Roman Catholic religious organization at that time and continuing , as gotten many things wrong. I would not advise anyone to join it. The true Church from the time of Acts 2 until now , have been made of those that are Born Again by The Spirit of God and are gathered together by God on the 1st Day of the week for worship. Again what you say the “church” or any group believed is not as important as to what The Scriptures have declared. To the degree we ” got it right” is to the degree we are right .

            Most of the greatest scientists from the past and today , believed in God and truths in The Bible. Some are even quoted as saying that it was their source of inspiration and discovery. Have you seen the list of those names? Google it.

            Mr. Cromie , have you ever heard the Origin of the rainbow explained? (Genesis 9:13-16). Prior to the Flood there was a different environment on the earth (Genesis 2:5-6).
            After the Flood, God set His rainbow “in the cloud” as a sign that He
            would never again judge the earth by water. Meteorologists now
            understand that a rainbow is formed when the sun shines through water
            droplets – which act as a prism – separating white light into its color
            spectrum.

          • David Cromie

            If you have a dictionary, look up the meaning of ‘sphere’ and ‘orb’. How do you know what any supposed ‘god’s perspective’ is (you make it sound as if your supposed ‘god’ is an astronaut)?

            Rainbows have been around for as long as there has been rain and sunlight. How is this a ‘different’ environment’ from that of today? Are you saying that the rainbow was especially created at the time of Noah?

            Confirmation bias would appear to be your best friend!

          • GibbyD

            by
            Henry M. Morris, Ph.D.
            –Evidence for Creation–
            “He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end” (Job 26:10).
            This observation by Job contains a significant scientific insight, refuting the frequent charge by skeptics that the Bible says that the earth is flat, with four corners. The Bible teaches no such thing—quite the opposite, in fact. Columbus did not sail west to prove that the earth was round; he already knew that, and so did many others long before Columbus.

            As far as the Bible is concerned, the word “compassed” in our text is the Hebrew khug, meaning “circle,” or even “sphere.” It is so translated in Isaiah 40:22; “It is [God] that sitteth upon the circle of the earth.” Viewed from any point in space, the earth would appear simply as a great circle, with its spherical shape projected on a plane.

            The word is translated “circuit” in Job 22:14, where Eliphaz said that “[God] walketh in the circuit of heaven.” The ancients assumed the starry heavens to be a great celestial sphere, rotating daily around the earth (so do modern surveyors and navigators as they use the stars in practical astronomy today). It is obvious that such a “circuit” at least suggests a spherical earth.

            In Proverbs 8:27, the divine Wisdom (actually God Himself in the person of His Son) is saying: “When [God] prepared the heavens, I was there: when He set a compass upon the face of the [deep].” Both here and in our text, the “compass” refers to sea level, projecting as a circular horizon, at the same elevation all around the globe. The great circle through the earth’s center marks the boundary between day and night, where “day” and “night” each gives way to the other, again implying a spherical, rotating earth. All of this speaks eloquently of the creating and conserving power of our gracious God and Savior. It also gives witness of the innerancy and scientific integrity of the Holy Scriptures. HMM

          • GibbyD

            by
            Henry M. Morris, Ph.D.

            Evidence for Creation
            “And I saw another mighty angel come down from
            heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon His head, and His
            face was as it were the sun, and His feet as pillars of fire” (Revelation 10:1).

            This is the last reference in Scripture to the beautiful rainbow and a
            most majestic picture it is. A mighty cloud descends from Heaven
            enveloping the great Creator/Savior Himself, here called (as is often
            true in Scripture) an “angel,” but with a description applicable only to
            the glorified Son of man (note Revelation 1:7,13-16).
            The rainbow is above the cloud, crowning the head of the mighty one as
            He stands astride both land and sea, thus claiming possession of all the
            earth (Revelation 10:2).

            There seems here to be a clear correlation with the first reference
            in Scripture to the rainbow and the cloud, neither of which had existed
            prior to the great Flood, “for the Lord God had not caused it to rain
            upon the earth” (Genesis 2:5) until that awful day of judgment. At the conclusion of the Flood when the vast “waters . . . above the firmament” (Genesis 1:7)
            had all condensed and poured down on the ground, then God had said: “I
            do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant
            between me and the earth” (Genesis 9:13),
            a sign of God’s promise never again to destroy the earth with water as
            He had just done. It has ever since been a beautiful reminder that God
            cares for His creation and that even in the midst of judgment He is the
            God of all grace. It also reminds us that He still rules the world He
            made.

            The time is soon coming when once again there shall be no rain and no cloud and “no more sea” (Revelation 21:1),
            so there shall be no more need for the reminder of the rainbow. All of
            God’s judgments will be over and gone, and there shall “be glory in the
            church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen” (Ephesians 3:21). HMM

          • David Cromie

            Mere BS, and assumption based on nothing but confirmation bias!

            Still no convincing evidence for the real existence of your supposed ‘god’, I note. Mere unquestioning belief proves nothing, otherwise we would have a plethora of supernatural entities to contend with, such as herds of disruptive unicorns roaming the earth, etc,!

          • GibbyD

            Light can be divided (Job 38:24). Sir Isaac Newton studied light and discovered that white light is made of seven colors, which can be “parted” and then recombined. Science confirmed this four centuries ago – God declared this four millennia ago!

          • GibbyD

            Ocean currents anticipated (Psalm 8:8).
            Three thousand years ago the Bible described the “paths of the seas.” In the 19th century Matthew Maury – the father of oceanography – after reading Psalm 8, researched and discovered ocean currents that follow specific paths through the seas! Utilizing Maury’s data, marine navigators have since reduced by many days the time required to traverse the seas

            Light can be divided (Job 38:24).
            Sir Isaac Newton studied light and discovered that white light is made of seven colors, which can be “parted” and then recombined. Science confirmed this four centuries ago – God declared this four millennia ago!

          • David Cromie

            Newton was a theist, but he was also an alchemist. He discovered, without any help from the so-called ‘bible’, the colours of the rainbow by looking at them, as everyone else did, but Newton realised that the percentages of the separate colours are the ingredients of light (I seem to recall that he thought that light consisted of particles, and not electromagnet waves, which he would not have heard of, of course). The so-called ‘bible’ makes no mention of light particles, nor of electromagnetic waves. Why is this?

            Any circumnavigator of the globe would have noticed ocean currents, and they did! Early sea voyagers were more worried, it seems, that they would fall off the edge of a flat earth!

            You agreed, earlier, that the ‘bible’ is not a science textbook, yet you claim all sorts of scientific theories are traceable to the ‘bible’. More examples of confirmation bias, it seems!

          • GibbyD

            Though he was and still is renowned for his scientific pursuits, Newton
            was a serious student of the Bible and published several theological
            works. Even in his famed Principia, Newton exhibited his dedication to God.

            “This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only
            proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful
            Being….This Being governs all things, not as the soul of the world,
            but as Lord over all; and on account of his dominion he is wont to be
            called Lord God “pantokrator,” or Universal Ruler…”.2

            Scientific inquiry, which then existed as Natural Philosophy, could not
            exist apart from “the Maker,” according to Newton. In fact, science was
            the perfect realm in which to discuss God.

            “Since every particle of space is always, and every indivisible moment of duration is every where, certainly the Maker and Lord of all things cannot be never and no where….God is the same God, always and every where. He is omnipresent not virtually only, but also substantially;
            for virtue cannot subsist without substance.…It is allowed by all that
            the Supreme God exists necessarily; and by the same necessity he exists always and every where….And
            thus much concerning God; to discourse of whom from the appearance of
            things, does certainly belong to Natural Philosophy.”3

            Though he lived before Darwin, Newton was not unacquainted with the atheistic evolutionary theory on origins. He was convinced against it and wrote:

            “Blind metaphysical necessity, which is certainly the same always and
            every where, could produce no variety of things. All that diversity of
            natural things which we find suited to different times and places could
            arise from nothing but the ideas and will of a Being, necessarily
            existing.”4

            In the winter of 1692, Newton suffered the loss of a scientific manuscript 20 years in the making, which triggered a nervous breakdown that lasted almost two years. When he emerged from it, his scholastic
            work attracted royal attention, and he was appointed as warden and later master of the Royal Mint. Although the appointments were sinecures, he
            took his work seriously, eventually retiring from his professorship at
            Cambridge in order to focus on the Mint. He made significant contributions to currency reform and the convictions of counterfeiters
            and clippers (who clipped the edges of coins, devaluing the currency), crimes considered high treason. His work at the Royal Mint, rather than
            his scientific achievements, earned him knighthood from Queen Anne in
            1705.

            Other honors included being elected a member of the French Académie des
            Sciences in 1699, and becoming President of the Royal Society in 1703.
            He never married, and though he died without a will, he had already
            given much of his estate to his nieces and nephews. He also endowed a
            professorship at the University of Edinburgh in Scotland, and
            biographers noted that he gave liberally to the poor throughout his
            life.

            Newton died in March 1727 and was interred at Westminster Abbey in
            London. Although in the popular imagination he is most closely
            associated with an apple and the law of gravity, Newton himself is
            quoted as saying,

            “Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion. God governs all things and knows all that is or can be done.”5

            References

            Epitaph for Newton’s grave, composed by English poet Alexander Pope.

            Newton, I. General Scholium. Translated by Motte, A. 1825. Newton’s Principia: The Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy. New York: Daniel Adee, 501. The Greek word pantokrator is most often translated as “Almighty” in the King James Version.

            Ibid, 505-506.

            Ibid, 506.

            Tiner, J. H. 1975. Isaac Newton: Inventor, Scientist and Teacher. Milford, MI: Mott Media.

          • David Cromie

            What on earth has this potted biography got to do with biblical science? The fact that Newton was deluded about the existence of his supposed ‘god’ does not mean that his scientific discoveries had anything to do with the so-called ‘bible’. Does Newton claim otherwise? His discovery of the theory of gravity came from the physical world, and was not proposed from some supposed magical ‘spiritual’ realm. The same goes for his Laws of Motion, with not a supernatural puppet master in sight.

            His ruminations on the ‘bible’ are to do with his religious beliefs, not his scientific achievements. The same could be said of Galileo, who proved Copernicus’s theory correct, in spite of his Roman Catholicism, and the pope’s anger. No biblical prompting for either of them!

          • GibbyD

            You discounted Newton as just a ” theist”. I supplied the evidence from his own writings that His understanding of God was more detailed, specific and MOTIVATED and INSPIRED him to discover and achieve what he did. He credits God’s influence and the wonder of GOD’s creation. Newton’s understanding of God came from believing The Revelation of God of His existence and workings in the Universe. That Revelation of God is The Bible for which he studied and for which every part of his life, including his research and scientific discovery, affected.

            More truth from the Bible: Sexual promiscuity is dangerous to your health (1 Corinthians 6:18; Romans 1:27).
            The Bible warns that “he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body,” and that those who commit homosexual sin would “receive in themselves” the penalty of their error. Much data now confirms that any relationship outside of holy matrimony is unsafe. The consequences are often horrible in this life and if they die without Christ , even worse.

          • David Cromie

            “You discounted Newton as just a ” theist””. No more true than that I dismissed him as ‘just an alchemist’!

            Your English comprehension skills are pathetically inadequate (there obviously was not a segment on this on your ‘business’ course).

          • GibbyD

            Reproduction explained (Genesis 1:27-28; 2:24; Mark 10:6-8). Evolution has no mechanism to explain how male and female
            reproductive organs evolved at the same time, The Bible says that from
            the beginning God made them male and female in order to propagate the
            human race and animal kinds.

          • David Cromie

            Only a moron would choose a fairytale over science! An unsupported claim in the so-called ‘bible’ is not proof of its veracity.

            You could, of course, provide the missing support by adducing your irrefutable evidence for the reality of your favourite supposed supernatural entities.

          • GibbyD

            “To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.”
            (Proverb 14:1)KJB.

            —>Incalculable number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22).
            At a time when less than 5,000 stars were visible to the human eye, God
            stated that the stars of heaven were innumerable. Not until the 17th
            century did Galileo glimpse the immensity of our universe with his new
            telescope. Today, astronomers estimate that there are ten thousand
            billion trillion stars – that’s a 1 followed by 25 zeros! Yet, as the
            Bible states, scientists admit this number may be woefully inadequate.

          • David Cromie

            All well and good, but you have not provided any reason to believe that your preferred, supposed, god actually exists.

            A pointed out to you, it is a fallacy to conclude that the so-called ‘bible’ is in any way proof of its own veracity!

          • GibbyD

            When writings declare future events that come to pass and actuate those predicted events in numbers far beyond mathematical statistical probability , then you have to at least conclude that there is something very special about those collected preserved writings. I have showed, I believe , that the 333 prophecies concerning the Messiah that are ALL fulfilled by The LORD Jesus Christ , are sufficient enough to prove the Divine authorship of The Bible. You simply continue to ignore those and or demonstrate a very weak understanding about the Inspiration, Canonical process, Transmission and Preservation of The Bible( Scripture). I suggested a briefer on the Topic by Geisler and Nix , ‘A General Introduction To The Bible’. Please get informed more about how we got The Bible we have today before we can have a reasonably productive conversation.

            The number of stars, though vast, are finite (Isaiah 40:26).
            Although man is unable to calculate the exact number of stars, we now
            know their number is finite. Of course God knew this all along – “He
            counts the number of the stars; He calls them all by name” (Psalm 147:4). What an awesome God!

          • David Cromie

            “When writings declare future events that come to pass and actuate those predicted events in numbers far beyond mathematical statistical probability”, then there is something seriously wrong with your both your perceptions, and your maths!. You have more chance of finding fulfilled predictions from the ‘collected preserved writings’ in Old Moore’s Almanac, or any other ‘seer’ in history (remember the Oracle of Delphi,?).

            It is interesting how christers interpret events to suit their world view, just as they read the so-called ‘bible’ to bolster/justify what they already believe. This phenomenon is termed ‘Confirmation Bias’.

            More importantly, the fly in the ointment is the fact that christers have not been able, so far, to come up with any independent support for the supposition that there exists any supernatural entities which might, rightly, be considered ‘gods’, nor even any real evidence that there ever existed a man-god named JC.

          • GibbyD

            Read um and weep. 1.
            Genesis 3:15…..Seed of a woman (virgin birth)…..Luke 1:35,
            Matthew 1:18-20

            2. Genesis 3:15…..He will bruise Satan’s head…..Hebrews 2:14, 1
            John 3:8

            3. Genesis 5:24….The bodily ascension to heaven
            illustrated….Mark 6:19

            4. Genesis 9:26-27…The God of Shem will be the Son of Shem…Luke
            3:36

            5. Genesis 12:3…As Abraham’s seed, will bless all nations…Acts
            3:25,26

            6. Genesis 12:7…The The Promise made made to Abraham’s
            Seed…Galatians 3:16

            7. Genesis 14:18…A priest after Melchizedek…Hebrews 6:20

            8. Genesis 14:18……..A King also……..Hebrews 7:2

            9. Genesis 14:18…The Last Supper foreshadowed…Matthew 26:26-29

            10. Genesis 17:19…….The Seed of Isaac…….Romans. 9:7

            11. Genesis 21:12 …Seed of Isaac…Romans 9:7, Hebrews 11:18

            12. Genesis 22:8…The Lamb of God promised…John 1:29

            13. Genesis 22:18…As Isaac’s seed, will bless all
            nations…Galatians 3:16

            14. Genesis26:2-5..The Seed of Isaac promised as the
            Redeemer..Hebrews11:18

            15. Genesis 49:10…The time of His coming…Luke 2:1-7; Galatians
            4:4

            16. Genesis 49:10…….The Seed of Judah…….Luke 3:33

            17. Genesis 49:10……Called Shiloh or One Sent……John 17:3

            18. Genesis 49:10…To come before Judah lost identity…John
            11:47-52

            19. Genesis 49:10…To Him shall the obedience of the people
            be…John 10:16

            20. Exodus 3:13,14……..The Great “I Am”…….John 4:26

            21. Exodus 12:5…A Lamb without blemish…1 Pet. 1:19

            22. Exodus 12:13…The blood of the Lamb saves Romans
            wrath…Romans. 5:8

            23. Exodus 12:21-27…Christ is our Passover…1 Corinthians 5;7

            24. Exodus 12:46…Not a bone of the Lamb to be broken…John
            19:31-36

            25. Exodus 13:2…Blessing to first born son…Luke 2:23

            26. Exodus 15:2…His exaltation predicted as Yeshua…Acts 7:55,56

            27. Exodus 15:11…His Character-Holiness…Luke 1:35; Acts 4:27

            28. Exodus 17:6…The Spiritual Rock of Israel…1 Corinthians 10;4

            29. Exodus 33:19…His Character-Merciful…Luke 1:72

            30. Leviticus14:11…The leper cleansed-Sign to
            priesthood..Luke5:12-14; Acts 6:7

            31. Leviticus16:15-17…Prefigures Christ’s once-for-all
            death…Hebrews 9:7-14

            32. Leviticus16:27…Suffering outside the Camp…Matthew 27:33;
            Hebrews 13:11, 12

            33. Leviticus17:11…The Blood-the life of the flesh…Matthew
            26;28; Mark 10:45

            34. Leviticus17:11…It is the blood that makes atonement…1 John
            3:14-18

            35. Leviticus23:36-37…The Drink-offering: “If any man thirst.”
            ..John 19:31-36

            36. Numbers 9:12…Not a bone of Him broken…John 19:31-36

            37. Numbers 21:9…The serpent on a pole-Christ lifted up…John
            3:14-18

            38. Numbers 24:8… Flight to Egypt…Matthew 2:14

            39. Numbers 24:17…Time: “I shall see him, but not
            now.”…Galatians 4:4

            40. Numbers 24:17-19…A star out of Jacob…Matthew 2:2, Luke 1:33,78,
            Revelation 22:16

            41. Deuteronomy 18:15…”This is of a truth that prophet.”…John
            6:14

            42. Deuteronomy 18:15-16…”Had ye believed Moses, ye would believe
            me.”…John 5:45-47

            43. Deuteronomy 18:18…Sent by the Father to speak His word…John
            8:28, 29

            44. Deuteronomy 18:19…Whoever will not hear must bear his
            sin…John 12:15

            45. Deuteronomy 21:13-23…As a prophet…John 6:14; 7:40, Acts 3:22,23

            46. Deuteronomy 21:23…Cursed is he that hangs on a
            tree…Galatians 3:10-13

            47. Ruth 4:4-9…Christ, our kinsman, has redeemed us…Ephesians
            1:3-7

            48. 1 Samuel 2:10…Shall be an anointed King to the Lord…Matthew
            28:18; John 12:15

            49. 2 Samuel 7:12…David’s Seed…Matthew 1:1

            50. 2 Samuel 7:14a…The Son of God… Luke 1:32

            51. 2 Samuel 7:16…David’s house established forever…Luke 3:31;
            Rev. 22:16

            52. 2 Samuel 23:2-4…would be the “Rock”…1 Corinthians 10:4

            53. 2 Samuel 23:2-4…would be as the “light of the
            morning”…Revelation 22:16

            54. 2 Kings 2:11…The bodily ascension to heaven
            illustrated…Luke 24:51

            55. 1 Chronicles 17:11…David’s Seed…Matthew 1:1; 9:27

            56. 1 Chronicles 17:12, 13a…To reign on David’s throne
            forever…Luke 1:32, 33

            57. 1 Chronicles 17:13a…”I will be His Father, He…my
            Son.”…Hebrews 1:5

            58. Job 19:23-27…The Resurrection predicted…John 5:24-29

            59. Psalms 2:1-3…The enmity of kings foreordained…Acts 4:25-28

            60. Psalms 2:2…To own the title, Anointed (Christ)…Acts 2:36

            61. Psalms 2:6…His Character-Holiness…John 8:46; Rev. 3:7

            62. Psalms 2:6…To own the title King…Matthew 2:2

            63. Psalms 2:7…Declared the Beloved Son…Matthew 3:17

            64. Psalms 2:7, 8…The Crucifixion and Resurrection
            intimated…Acts 13:29-33

            65. Psalms 2:12…Life comes through faith in Him…John 20:31

            66. Psalms 8:2…The mouths of babes perfect His praise…Matthew
            21:16

            67. Psalms 8:5, 6…His humiliation and exaltation…Luke 24:50-53;
            1 Corinthians 15:27

            68. Psalms 16:10…Was not to see corruption…Acts 2:31

            69. Psalms 16:9-11…Was to arise from the dead…John 20:9

            70. Psalms 17;15…The resurrection predicted…Luke 24:6

            71. Psalms 22:1…Forsaken because of sins of others…2
            Corinthians 5:21

            72. Psalms 22:1…Words spoken from Calvary, “My God…” Mark 15:34

            73. Psalms 22:2…Darkness upon Calvary…Matthew 27:45

            74. Psalms 22:7…They shoot out the lip and shake the
            head…Matthew 27:39

            75. Psalms 22:8..” He trusted in God, let Him deliver Him
            “…Matthew 27:43

            76. Psalms 22:9……Born the Savior……Luke 2:7

            77. Psalms 22:14…Died of a broken (ruptured) heart…John 19:34

            78. Psalms 22:14,15…Suffered agony on Calvary…Mark 15:34-37

            79. Psalms 22:15……..He thirsted……..John 19:28

            80. Psalms 22:16…They pierced His hands and His feet….John
            19:34,37;20:27

            81. Psalms 22:17,18…Stripped Him before the stares of men…Luke
            23:34,35

            82. Psalms 22:18…..They parted His garments…..John 19:23,24

            83. Psalms 22:20,21…He committed Himself to God…Luke23:46

            84. Psalms 22:20,21..Satanic power bruising the Redeemer’s heel..
            Hebrews 2:14

            85. Psalms 22:22…..His Resurrection declared…..John 20:17

            86. Psalms 22:27…He shall be the governor of the nations…Col
            1:16

            87. Psalms 22:31……”It is finished”……John 19:30

            88. Psalms 23:1….”I am the Good Shepherd”….John 10:11

            89. Psalms 24:3……His exaltation predicted……Acts 1:11; Phil.
            2:9

            90. Psalms 27:12…Accused by false witnesses…Matthew 26:60,61, Mark
            14:57,58

            91. Psalms 30:3……His resurrection predicted……Acts 2:32

            92. Psalms 31:5…”Into thy hands I commit my spirit”…Luke 23:46

            93. Psalms 31:11…His acquaintances fled from Him…Mark 14:50

            94. Psalms 31:13…They took counsel to put Him to death…John
            11:53

            95. Psalms 31:14,15…” He trusted in God, let Him deliver
            him”…Matthew 27:43

            96. Psalms 34:20…..Not a bone of Him broken…..John 19:31-36

            97. Psalms 35:11….False witnesses rose up against Him….Matthew
            26:59

            98. Psalms 35:19…He was hated without a cause…John 15:25

            99. Psalms 38:11…..His friends stood afar off…..Luke 23:49

            100. Psalms 40:2-5…The joy of His resurrection predicted…John
            20:20

            101. Psalms 40:6-8….His delight-the will of the Father….John
            4:34

            102. Psalms 40:9….He was to preach the Righteousness in
            Israel….Matthew 4:17

            103. Psalms 40:14…Confronted by adversaries in the Garden…John

            104. Psalms 41:9…..Betrayed by a familiar friend…..John 13:18

            105. Psalms 45:2…Words of Grace come from His lips.. Luke 4:22

            106. Psalms 45:6…To own the title, God or Elohim…Hebrews 1:8

            107. Psalms 45:7…A special anointing by the Holy
            Spirit…Matthew3:16; Hebrews1:9

            108. Psalms 45:7,8…Called the Christ (Messiah or Anointed)…Luke
            2:11

            109. Psalms 49-15…His Resurrection…Acts 2:27; 13:35, Mark 16:6

            110. Psalms 55:12-14…Betrayed by a friend, not an enemy…John
            13:18

          • David Cromie

            What on earth is this catalogue of nonsense supposed to prove, or how does it even constitute a relevant answer to my comments?

            Do you know nothing of the history of the development of the so-called ‘bible’ from the Codex Sinaiticus (the earliest known ‘bible’) up to the present? Obviously not!

            Are you merely an uncritical, semiliterate, ‘bible thumper’, that suffers from an inability to comprehend English, whilst not knowing how to reply appropriately to specific comments/questions about your world view?

          • GibbyD

            Yes , I do know how we got The Bible we use today. I spent four years at a highly accredited school in the United States studying The Bible.
            “The Bible
            is a library of sixty-six different books, long and short, written in
            different languages (Hebrew, Caldean and Greek), written in various
            countries(Judea, Babylon,Asia Minor, Greece and Italy), written in
            various times during a period stretching over about fifteen hundred
            years and with an intermission of about 400 years, written by about forty different authors, people with Egyptian culture, people with Jewish culture, people with Greek and Roman culture, people with no culture.

            Written by all sorts and conditions of men (priests, prophets, princes,
            peasants, warriors, statesmen, herdsmen, poets, publicans, physicians,
            fishermen, historians, lawyers, chroniclers, philosophers, orators,
            autocrats, exiles, rich, poor, evangelists, apostles), written to Jew
            and to Gentile, written to Greek and barbarian, to bond and to free, to
            men and to women, to young and to old,of individuals,congregations, the
            whole world. Written in the rush of the city and in the hush of the
            country; written in palace and in prison, written in prosperity and in
            adversity, written in the height of national glory on Mount Zion and in
            the depth of national shame beside quiet waters. These books contain
            prose, poetry, prophecy, history, type, antitype,
            sign,symbol,miracle,parable,biography,philosophy,description,travel,exploration,legislation,invitation,exhortation,denunciation,
            argumentation, commendation, indignation, prayers, blessings, curses,
            oration, consolation, fierce invective, impassioned appeal, and coolest
            and calmest logic, letters, hymns, pastorals, romance, tragedy and
            jubilee, sobbing sighs and shouts of joy,sermons,lyrics,proverbs,
            epigrams and axioms.

            Thinking on these facts, we must needs expect chaos as the outcome. It
            cannot be but that parts of this variegated library contradict other
            parts. But do we find it so? By no means! On the contrary and wonderful
            to relate, we find a marvelous unity of design and harmony in
            statements.

            Have you ever realized the Bible had so much unity? Fifteen hundred years, forty different authors,
            three different languages, five or six different countries. And yet
            with all of these variations, there’s still just one theme and it all
            harmonizes together. If you were a god and you’d created some people,
            and you wanted to communicate to them through a written word, wouldn’t
            you make sure that your Bible
            had characteristics like that? And someone might say, well, there’s
            really nothing all that hard about that, I mean, other books have been
            written like that. Well let’s see if that is really true.

            Why don’t we go down to some seminary, some theological seminary, but
            instead of getting people with different languages and from different
            countries and different backgrounds and over hundreds of years, why
            don’t we just get forty students who are all going there at the same
            time from the same country who have the same teachers and just ask them
            to do us a favor? Without conferring with each other, why don’t we ask
            them to write about a fifty page paper each, on the subject of God (His
            existence, His nature, His purposes), and man (where he came from, what
            he’s here for, where he’s going), and things about spiritual ideas. And
            then let’s collect all 2000 pages which would be about the length of a Bible, I suppose, and put them all together and see if they have the same kind of harmony that the Bible does.

            You say, well they might. Well, I’ll tell you what, why don’t you just go down to the library and find any 40
            books off the shelf in the religious section and see if they all are in
            harmony with each other. You see it hasn’t been done. The Bible is totally unique. The Bible is The Word of God.” — The previous was from college notes from many years ago.

            To summarize again , The Bible is an incredibly unified piece of literature. It was written over a 1,500 year time period by over 40 different authors
            from various backgrounds and cultures, in 13 different countries, in 3
            different languages, and in many different literary styles. Despite all
            of that, it contains one consistent theme from cover to cover, which is
            God’s plan for the salvation of mankind. Can you explain that David
            ?—-It is appropriate to call the Bible the Word of God because that is what the Bible
            itself claims. “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
            profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in
            righteousness:(2 Timothy 3:16) The Bible
            was physically written by men by the inspiration of God (Hebrews 1:1).
            In other words, God used men to write exactly what He wanted to say. The
            writers are clearly claiming to be speaking from God as hundreds of
            times they use expressions like “thus saith the Lord”, “declares the
            Lord”, “God said”, and “The word of the Lord came to me”. The ways in
            which God spoke to the writers included dreams (Genesis 37:1-11),
            visions (Daniel 7), audible voice (1 Samuel 3), inner voice (Hosea 1),
            and through angels (Genesis 19:1-29).Most of the writers in the Old
            Testament and all of the writers in the New Testament were eyewitnesses
            to the events written about and their written accounts have been
            supported by hundreds of archeological finds. The writers were compelled
            to write only what came from God– “Do not add to His words, or He will
            rebuke you and prove you a liar.” (Proverbs 30:6). In fact, most of the
            writers felt so strongly that what they were writing about was from God
            that they died for what they believed.-

          • David Cromie

            ‘Caldean’ ??? So much for your ‘highly accredited [by whom?] school in the United States studying The Bible’! Could you submit your 50-page essay ‘on the subject of God (His existence, His nature, His purposes), and man (where he came from, what he’s here for, where he’s going), It should make very interesting reading, especially if it contains any cogent evidence for believing that there exists any supernatural entity that might be considered a ‘god’.

            Your post offers no indication that you know anything at all about biblical history, only what you were told to believe at ‘bible’ college. There is no hint of academic research, and no mention of the Codex Sinaiticus (nor of the 15th cent. C.E. Codex Vaticanus), or of the political part played by the emergent Roman church, under Constantine, in its subsequent history!

            It cannot be stressed too strongly that the so-called ‘bible’ cannot be quoted as proof of its own veracity, since to do so is fallacious reasoning.

          • GibbyD

            Aramaic , if you prefer. Assyrian Neo-Aramaic is closely related to Chaldean Neo-Aramaic, both evolving from the same distinct Syriac dialect which evolved in Assyria between the 5th century BC and 1st century AD. There is also some Akkadian vocabulary and influence in the language.

            Speakers of Assyrian Neo-Aramaic, Chaldean Neo-Aramaic and Turoyo are ethnic Assyrians and are descendants of the ancient Assyrian inhabitants of Northern Mesopotamia.
            Assyrian Neo-Aramaic is the largest speaking Neo-Aramaic group (232,000
            speakers), followed by Chaldean Neo-Aramaic (206,000 speakers) and
            Turoyo (112,000 speakers).

            Despite the terms Chaldean Neo-Aramaic and Assyrian Neo-Aramaic
            indicating a separate religious (or even ethnic) identity, both
            languages and their native speakers originate from, and are indigenous
            to, the same Upper Mesopotamian region (which was Assyria between the 25th century BC and 7th century AD). Most speakers are members of the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East.

            Assyrian Neo-Aramaic is, to a significant extent, mutually intelligible with Chaldean Neo-Aramaic and, to a moderate degree, with Senaya, Lishana Deni and Bohtan Neo-Aramaic (which are, at times, considered Assyrian dialects). It is partially intelligible with Lishan Didan, Hulaulá and Lishanid Noshan. Its mutual intelligibility with Turoyo is rather limited.

            There Are Two Kinds of Manuscripts:

            1.Accurate Copies

            These manuscripts represent the manuscripts from which the “Textus Receptus” or Received Text was taken.
            They are the majority of Greek manuscripts which agree with each
            other and have been accepted by Bible believing Christians down through
            the centuries. It is from these manuscripts that the King James Bible
            was translated in 1611.

            2.Corrupted Copies

            These manuscripts represent the corrupted copies of the Bible, also
            known as the Alexandrian manuscripts. These manuscripts, many times, do
            not even agree with each other. The Vaticanus and Sinaiticus
            manuscripts are part of this group. These are the manuscripts on which
            Westcott and Hort and the modern versions rely so heavily.

            There are 5,309 surviving Greek manuscripts that contain all or part
            of the New Testament. These manuscripts agree together 95% of the time.
            The other 5% account for the differences between the King James and
            the modern versions.

            The modern versions had to use the Textus Receptus, since it contains
            the majority of the surviving Greek manuscripts. The problem is that,
            when the Textus Receptus disagreed with the Vaticanus or the Sinaiticus,
            they preferred these corrupted manuscripts over the Textus Receptus.

            That accounts for the 5% corruption in the modern versions. Even
            these two manuscripts agree with the Textus Receptus much of the time.
            When they do not agree, it is because Marcion (120-160 AD) or Origin
            (184-254 AD) or whoever, corrupted them.

          • David Cromie

            I had wondered if ‘Caldean’ was a typo! Thank you for the lengthy, and mostly, cut-and-past reply.

            Two general points should be made: The fragmentary papyri, on which the so-called ‘bible’ relies, are the work of men, at best, interested in popularising their particular world view, or merely providing a ‘good read’. This eventually led to the raising of much discussion among the so-called ‘early church fathers’ about what to exclude and what to retain in what would be the officially approved version (Textus Receptus); secondly, it is obvious from what you have provided that there is no mention of these biblical scribes (or those who engaged them) being ‘inspired’ in any way by a ‘ghost’, holy or otherwise.

            Then there is the question of the origins of the early papyri themselves, especially their incorporation of (albeit suitably retold) Pagan myths, legends, and folklore. This aspect of the early ‘christian’ manuscripts, which were probably produced as literature in the first place, is largely ignored by christers when extolling the assumed sanctity of the modern biblical canon.

            Much academic study has been carried out in recent years into the origins and history of the Codex Sinaiticus. See, for example, ‘The Early Text of the New Testament’ by Hill and Kruger, eds., 2005, OUP, and ‘Codex Sinaiticus – New Perspectives on the Ancient Biblical Manuscript’ by McKendrick, Parker, Myshrall, and O’Hogan, eds., 2015, British Library.

          • GibbyD

            “Two general points should be made: The fragmentary papyri, on which the
            so-called ‘bible’ relies, are the work of men, at best, interested in
            popularising their particular world view, or merely providing a ‘good
            read'”

            — Nope, they were merely “technicians” interested only in making exact written copies of the copies of the autographs( originals).God was the author of those originals ( 2 Timothy 3:16)KJB. God was and is involved with their preservation. ( Psalm 12:6,7)KJB.

            There is very little similarity with any pagan previous types. The Old Testament predates them anyway. Compare them and you can see that the idea that The Bible borrowed anything , is completely false. There may have been some types that God allowed in human history but that would only prove to prepare for The Real Deal that is The LORD Jesus Christ.

            I have provided previously why your assumptions are not correct concerning how we have our Bible today.
            —following has been cut and pasted but contains the reasons against the “codex sinaiticus”

            “Consider these facts
            and oddities relating to the Codex Vaticanus:

            It was corrected
            by revisers in the 8th, 10th, and 15th centuries (W. Eugene Scott,
            Codex Vaticanus, 1996).

            The entire
            manuscript has been mutilated…every letter has been run over with
            a pen, making exact identification of many of the characters
            impossible. Dr. David Brown observes: “I question the ‘great
            witness’ value of any manuscript that has been overwritten,
            doctored, changed and added to for more than 10 centuries.” (The
            Great Unicals).

            In the Gospels it
            leaves out 749 entire sentences and 452 clauses, plus 237 other
            words, all of which are found in hundreds of other Greek
            manuscripts. The total number of words omitted in Codex B in the
            Gospels alone is 2,877 as compared with the majority of manuscripts
            (Burgon, The Revision Revised, p. 75).
            Vaticanus omits
            Mark 16:9-20, but a blank space is left for that section of
            Scripture. The following testimony is by John Burgon, who examined
            Vaticanus personally: “To say that in the Vatican Codex (B),
            which is unquestionably the oldest we possess, St. Mark’s Gospel
            ends abruptly at the eighth verse of the sixteenth chapter, and that
            the customary subscription (Kata Mapkon) follows, is true; but it is
            far from being the whole truth. It requires to be stated in addition
            that the scribe, whose plan is found to have been to begin every
            fresh book of the Bible at the top of the next ensuing column to
            that which contained the concluding words of the preceding book, has
            at the close of St. Mark’s Gospel deviated from his else invariable
            practice. HE HAS LEFT IN THIS PLACE ONE COLUMN ENTIRELY VACANT.
            IT IS THE ONLY VACANT COLUMN IN THE WHOLE MANUSCRIPT — A BLANK
            SPACE ABUNDANTLY SUFFICIENT TO CONTAIN THE TWELVE VERSES WHICH HE
            NEVERTHELESS WITHHELD. WHY DID HE LEAVE THAT COLUMN VACANT? What
            can have induced the scribe on this solitary occasion to depart from
            his established rule? The phenomenon (I believe I was the first to
            call distinct attention to it) is in the highest degree significant,
            and admits only one interpretation. The older manuscript from which
            Codex B was copied must have infallibly contained the twelve verses
            in dispute. The copyist was instructed to leave them out — and he
            obeyed; but he prudently left a blank space in memoriam rei.
            Never was a blank more intelligible! Never was silence more
            eloquent! By this simple expedient, strange to relate, the Vatican
            Codex is made to refute itself even while it seems to be bearing
            testimony against the concluding verses of St. Mark’s Gospel, by
            withholding them; for it forbids the inference which, under ordinary
            circumstances, must have been drawn from that omission. It does
            more. By leaving room for the verses it omits, it brings into
            prominent notice at the end of fifteen centuries and a half, a more
            ancient witness than itself.” (Burgon, The Last Twelve Verses
            of the Gospel of St. Mark Vindicated, 1871, pp. 86-87)
            –Similar to
            Codex Sinaiticus, Codex Vaticanus identifies itself as a product
            of gnostic corruption in John 1:18, where “the only begotten Son”
            is changed to “the only begotten God,” thus perpetuating the
            ancient Arian heresy that disassociates the Son of God Jesus Christ
            from God Himself by claiming that the Word was not the same as the
            Son. John’s Gospel identifies the Son directly with the Word (John
            1:1, 18), but by changing “Son” to “God” in verse 18, this direct
            association is broken.

            Linguistic
            scholars have observed that Codex Vaticanus is reminiscent of
            classical and Platonic Greek, not Koine Greek of the
            New Testament (see Adolf Deissman’s Light of the Ancient East).
            Nestle admitted that he had to change his Greek text (when using
            Vaticanus and Sinaiticus) to make it “appear” like Koine Greek.

            Codex Vaticanus
            contains the false Roman Catholic apocryphal books such as Judith,
            Tobias, and Baruch, while it omits the pastoral epistles (I Timothy
            through Titus), the Book of Revelation, and it cuts off the Book of
            Hebrews at Hebrews 9:14 (a very convenient stopping point for the
            Catholic Church, since God forbids their priesthood in Hebrews 10
            and exposes the mass as totally useless as well!).”

          • David Cromie

            There you go again; the so-called ‘bible’ says so. therefore it must be true. Can you not see how fallacious this is? When are you going to adduce the irrefutable evidence for your supposed ‘god’? Without this backing, all talk of the ‘bible’ as being anything other than a collection of ancient myths, legends, and folklore is pure fancy and delusion.

            As far as the surviving fragmentary papyri go, Dr Brown rightly notes; ‘”I question the ‘great witness’ value of any manuscript that has been overwritten, doctored, changed and added to for more than 10 centuries”. So do I! Since this caveat applies to the whole of the so-called ‘bible’, passim, it rather proves my point about biblical reliability and authenticity!

            No comment from you on the historical origins of the ancient papyri as ‘literature’, I note. Please consult the references supplied, supra, before making any more comments.

          • GibbyD

            Two lines of Bibles. One is corrupt , the other is not. You are not listening.

          • David Cromie

            On the contrary, it is you who is not listening, and completely ignoring my questions, along with the serious academic studies I referenced.

            Are you really that illiterate and stupid as to believe that there are no legitimate questions to be answered in respect of your stated world view, and that any such raised can therefore be legitimately ignored? Logical argument is obviously not your bag!

            Now go away until you have done some serious research, and have something intelligent, and on topic, to say for yourself.

          • GibbyD

            “serious academic studies I referenced”, “legitimate questions”? Really ? Since you cannot cite or recapitulate specifically anything new or different that has not been already answered thoroughly by so many , then I strongly suspect that you are either being willfully ignorant or just dishonest.

            As is normally always the case, and as most recognize, your ad hominem attacks is evidence that you have lost the debate.

            The reason why you will not recognize and submit to The Truth is because you love your sin too much and are unwilling to give up “the throne” that you sit on that you think establishes only you as the god of your life. The problem is that that same throne is really Satan’s seat.

            There is no reason why you need to die in your sins and end up in the same place as The Devil. There is a remedy and His Name is The LORD Jesus Christ. Nobody is ever going to love you as much as He. Trust Him and believe on The LORD Jesus Christ. When you do , you will understand too why it is not right to force anyone to participate in something as evil as a same sex ceremony.

          • David Cromie

            You are not really very bright, are you. Some might even say that you are a moron! Please note, hurling chunks of the so-called ‘bible’ at people does not constitute ‘having a debate’, rather, it shows that you do not have anything relevant or interesting to say in answer to to the posts from others.

          • GibbyD

            ” Moron” ? Hmm, my dad as part of his profession , use to give Intelligence tests. He said that terms such as “moron” , “idiot etc., were actual tags and or labels given to those that scored accordingly and in relation to the outcomes of those tests. They do not use those terms anymore. People like yourself though use them as an insult to try and belittle those they disagree with as a debate tactic with the mind to attempt weakening the resolve and or stance of those they argue with. It does not work. It only shows you are losing and are frustrated by that fact. I am sure your pride will not let you stop and admit your error .

            I have had at least three I.Q. tests in my lifetime. I have always scored between 130 and 160. Not a “genius” but not a “moron”.

            “Knowledge puffs up , love builds up” ( I will let you look up the reference )

            “The fear of The LORD is the beginning of WISDOM”. ( You can find that one too)

            Knowledge and Wisdom are not the same.

          • David Cromie

            If you are as intelligent as you claim, how come you cannot answer my questions? I don’t suppose you are conversant with the built in bias which affects IQ tests, or of their consequent unreliability as an indicator of future performance.

          • GibbyD

            I answered but you ignored it. The truth is that even if you thought The Bible and The Gospel were true, you would still not want to believe it because you love your sin.

            The fact that God once flooded the earth (the Noahic Flood) would be denied (2 Peter 3:5-6).
            There is a mass of fossil evidence to prove this fact, yet it is flatly
            ignored by most of the scientific world because it was God’s judgment
            on man’s wickedness.

            Vast fossil deposits anticipated (Genesis 7).
            When plants and animals die they decompose rapidly. Yet billions of
            life forms around the globe have been preserved as fossils. Geologists
            now know that fossils only form if there is rapid deposition of life
            buried away from scavengers and bacteria. This agrees exactly with what
            the Bible says occurred during the global Flood.

          • David Cromie

            “I answered but you ignored it” – completely untrue! How far do your delusions reach?

            How would it be possible both to believe that something is true, and, at the same time, believe it is not? Another example of illogical christer argument.

          • GibbyD

            “How would it be possible both to believe that something is true, and, at the same time, believe it is not?”
            — I said you would still not ‘want’ to believe it. In the case of The Gospel ” believe it ” means to rely and trust completely in the message which would also require the response of, ” repentance toward God and faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ” ( Acts 20:21)KJB.

          • David Cromie

            So you expect me to do your research reading for you?!!

            I have no idea what your level of knowledge on the subject of the history of the ‘bible’ actually is, but I suspect it is so dismal that I would have to run a seminar just for you. Not going to happen!

          • GibbyD

            So you cannot cite or recapitulate specifically anything new or different
            that has not been already answered and rebuffed thoroughly by so many. This is exactly what I am saying.

          • David Cromie

            Just read the books referred to, and then you will have some understanding of the subject, and, hopefully, something intelligent to say that is not the product of self-serving semiliterate religiots.

          • GibbyD

            Why don’t you waste your own time and read them first yourself? You obviously have not if you cannot cite anything from them to prove any point you are trying but failing to make .

          • David Cromie

            I have read the books myself, and I can assure it was not a waste of time! What a lame, illogical excuse for not doing your own research. I cannot read the works on your behalf (or critique them as one of your biblical school lecturers), nor even predict what you would think of the various contributions contained therein.

            I have no idea, as I have already said, what the exact details of your superstitious world view are, so how could I make any corrective remarks about them as gleaned from the academic research contained in the books cited. I am confident that you would prefer your opinions to be delivered to you in the form of misleading mimeographed handouts, as you are accustomed to, from a lecturer at your bible study classes, since you do not have the ability to understand academic writing for yourself. That is not my problem!

          • GibbyD

            Yep , just as I thought. You cannot do it .

          • David Cromie

            Projection does nothing for you! Get an education.

          • GibbyD

            Now I see you are also no psychologist. Wrong term.

          • David Cromie

            Must you insist on projecting your own academic ineptitude and English comprehension failures onto others? It seems that you are wrong in this case, and a mere illiterate troll.

          • GibbyD

            Now you are just trying to be funny. Life is short David . Don’t waste any more of it on temporary things.

          • David Cromie

            Everything is temporary! At least I do not waste my short time here on earth deluding myself that the so-called ‘bible’ is anything other than legends, fairytales, and accumulated folklore, much edited, augmented, and embellished over many years.

          • GibbyD

            The believer’s, “light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
            18While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.” ( 2 Corinthians 4:17,18)KJB

          • David Cromie

            What on earth are you talking about? Are you trying to produce the sound of one hand clapping? Your affliction is being reality averse, with a dedication to supposed mythical entities. Get a life!

          • GibbyD

            I have a life , in fact, ” abundant life”.

            “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and THE LIFE : no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” ( John 14:6)KJB

            My life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.– ( Colossians 3:3,4)

          • David Cromie

            You have, without question, an overactive, superstition-prone, imagination, such as believing you have a hidden ‘life’ arranged by an imagined, therefore unseeable, friend!

          • GibbyD

            The Scriptures have remained the same. My original 1597 English Bible reads exactly the same ( except for spelling) as any edition of a King James Bible today.

          • David Cromie

            I expect it does, but so what? 16th cent. bibles, if printed in England, should be in black letter typeface.

          • rationalobservations?

            While the KJV bible stands beside the works of Shakespeare as contributions to human written literature – The KJV bible was the result of the world of a team of human scribes 1600 years after the time in which the confused and contradictory, much altered legends of “Yeshua?Jesus” are set – and 1200 years after the oldest/first prototype NT bibles were written by different teams of men in the 4th century.

          • GibbyD

            Here are a few more. —111. Psalms 55:15…Unrepentant death of the Betrayer…Matthew
            27:3-5; Acts 1:16-19

            112. Psalms 68:18…To give gifts to men…Ephesians 4:7-16

            113. Psalms 68:18…Ascended into Heaven…Luke 24:51

            114. Psalms 69:4…Hated without a cause…John 15:25

            115. Psalms 69:8…A stranger to own brethren…Luke 8;20,21

            116. Psalms 69:9…Zealous for the Lord’s House…John 2:17

            117. Psalms 69:14-20…Messiah’s anguish of soul before
            crucifixion…Matthew 26:36-45

            118. Psalms 69:20…”My soul is exceeding sorrowful.”…Matthew
            26:38

            119. Psalms 69:21…Given vinegar in thirst…Matthew 27:34

            120. Psalms 69:26…The Savior given and smitten by God…John 17:4;
            18:11

            121. Psalms 72:10,11…Great persons were to visit Him…Matthew
            2:1-11

            122. Psalms 72:16…The corn of wheat to fall into the Ground…John
            12:24

            123. Psalms 72:17…His name, Yinon, will produce offspring…John
            1:12,13

            124. Psalms 72:17…All nations shall be blessed by Him…Acts
            2:11,12,41

            125. Psalms 78:1.2…He would teach in parables…Matthew 13:34-35

            126. Psalms 78:2b…To speak the Wisdom of God with
            authority…Matthew 7:29

            127. Psalms 88:8…They stood afar off and watched…Luke 23:49

            128. Psalms 89:26…Messiah will call God His Father…Matthew 11:27

            129. Psalms 89:27…Emmanuel to be higher than earthly kings…Luke
            1:32,33

            130. Psalms 89:35-37…David’s Seed, throne, kingdom endure
            forever…Luke 1:32,33

            131. Psalms 89:36-37…His character-Faithfulness…Rev. 1:5

            132. Psalms 90:2…He is from everlasting (Micah 5:2)…John 1:1

            133. Psalms 91:11,12…Identified as Messianic; used to tempt
            Christ…Luke 4;10,11

            134. Psalms 97:9…His exaltation predicted…Acts 1:11;Ephesians
            1:20

            135. Psalms 100:5…His character-Goodness…Matthew 19:16,17

            136. Psalms 102:1-11…The Suffering and Reproach of Calvary…John
            21:16-30

            137. Psalms 102:16…Son of Man comes in Glory…Luke 21:24

            Revelation 12:5-10

            138. Psalms 102:25-27…Messiah is the Preexistent Son…Hebrews
            1:10-12

            139. Psalms 109:4…Prays for His enemies…Luke 23:34

            140. Psalms 109:7,8…Another to succeed Judas…Acts 1:16-20

            141. Psalms 109:25…Ridiculed…Matthew 27:39

            142. Psalms 110:1…Son of David…Matthew 22:43

            143. Psalms 110:1…To ascend to the right-hand of the
            Father…Mark16:19

            144. Psalms 110:1…David’s son called Lord…Matthew 22:44,45

            145. Psalms 110:4…A priest after Melchizedek’s order…Hebrews
            6:20

            146. Psalms 112:4…His character-Compassionate, Gracious, et al…
            Matthew 9;36

            147. Psalms 118:17,18…Messiah’s Resurrection assured…Luke
            24:5-7;1 Corinthians 15:20

            148. Psalms 118:22,23…The rejected stone is Head of the
            corner…Matthew 21:42,43

            149. Psalms 118:26a…The Blessed One presented to Israel…Matthew
            21:9

            150. Psalms 118:26b…To come while Temple standing…Matthew
            21;12-15

            151. Psalms 132:11…The Seed of David (the fruit of His
            Body)…Luke 1:32

            152. Psalms 138:1-6…The supremacy of David’s Seed amazes kings…
            Matthew 2:2-6

            153. Psalms 147:3,6…The earthly ministry of Christ
            described…Luke 4:18

            154. Psalms 1:23…He will send the Spirit of God… John 16;7

            155. Proverbs 8:22-23…The Messiah would be from everlasting…John
            17:5

            156. Proverbs 30:4…Declared to be the Son of God…John 3:13, Romans
            1:2-4, 10:6-9, 2 Peter 1:17

            157. Song of Solomon 5:16…The altogether lovely One…John 1:17

          • David Cromie

            You might as well, and with just as much significance, provide a list of quotes from Nostradamus!

          • GibbyD

            There are plenty more and these are just concerning the Messiah.

          • David Cromie

            How about addressing my points directly, or is that beyond your abilities?

          • GibbyD

            “God is a Spirit ” (John4:24)KJB

            “God is LOVE” ( John 4:7,8)KJB.

            If you knew what love was, you would know what and Who God is.–>
            (John 1:14) !!!!!!!

          • David Cromie

            One thing is certainly clear; you have proved, once again, the truth that the basic rule for religiots is that nothing, but nothing, can be allowed to count against cherished beliefs/delusions, such that facts must either be ignored or dismissed out of hand, the alternative being too painful and distressing for them!

          • GibbyD

            One thing is certainly clear; you have proved, once again, the truth
            that the basic rule for atheists and Godless is that nothing, but nothing, can be
            allowed to count against cherished beliefs/delusions, such that facts
            must either be ignored or dismissed out of hand, the alternative being
            too painful and distressing for them!

          • David Cromie

            As requested previously, please supply the irrefutable, independent, facts which you claim I have ignored!

          • GibbyD

            It is all there. You have no excuse. You are going to have to face The Judgement before God without The Advocate. It is probably too late for you now anyway. God gives those who continue to reject Him, over to a reprobate mind. There is nothing more that I can do for you but pray for you that your pride is somehow shattered to allow the light of the Glorious Gospel of Christ to shine in. bye.

          • David Cromie

            Just because it exists in your head, does not mean ‘it’ is real! In other words, the hoped for reification of imaginary entities does not actually bring them into existence, no matter how fervent the belief to the contrary might be. If this were not so, then we would have to acknowledge all the thousands of supposed ‘gods’ that mankind has thought up over the millennia, as real.

            As was also pointed out to you previously, the fly in the ointment is the fact that christers have not been able, so far, to come up with any independent support for the proposition that there exist any supernatural entities which might, however remotely, be considered ‘gods’, nor is there even any contemporary, 1st cent. C.E., evidence that there has ever existed a man-god named JC. Why have you not addressed these crucial points?

            Was your allegedly ‘reputable bible school’ not interested in, much less capable of, preparing you to counter, objectively with falsifiable evidence, such basic objections to the christer narrative? Ignoring them does not make them go away

          • GibbyD

            “1st cent. C.E., evidence that there has ever existed a man-god named JC.” ? —– We have the Scriptures. Rome would not have been interested in recording anything about The LORD Jesus Christ. They would have been more interested in scrubbing the memory from their history.

            You still ignore the prophecies. There are more than 333 concerning The Messiah alone and The LORD Jesus Christ fulfills them all.

            The Bible compares the number of stars with the number of grains of sand on the seashore (Genesis 22:17; Hebrews 11:12). Amazingly, gross estimates of the number of sand grains are comparable to the estimated number of stars in the universe.

            No, man could not have fabricated The Bible. I explained previously why that would be impossible. The Bible was inspired by God.

            Rejecting the Creator results in moral depravity (Romans 1:20-32).
            The Bible warns that when mankind rejects the overwhelming evidence for
            a Creator, lawlessness will result. Since the theory of evolution has
            swept the globe, abortion, pornography, genocide, etc., have all risen
            sharply.

          • David Cromie

            I refer you to my previous post.

          • GibbyD

            And I refer you to my previous posts. Also ,

            “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is
            condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only
            begotten Son of God.
            19And
            this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men
            loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
            20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
            21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.” ( John 3:18-21)KJB. YOU BETTER HURRY !!! YOUR TIME IS SHORT.

          • David Cromie

            What makes you think I would be interested in unsubstantiated, random quotes from the so-called ‘bible’?

            Now answer my question on the reality of your supposed ‘god’! Have you accessed the academic books I cited?

          • GibbyD

            “Have you accessed the academic books I cited?”

            — “For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God
            forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written,
            That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome
            when thou art judged.” (Romans 3:3,4)KJB.

          • David Cromie

            For what if some do believe, shall their belief make the delusion of a ‘god’ come true?

            So you have not read anything that might question your cherished beliefs, assuming that the books I cited are by liars who do not share your beliefs. Wrong! They are about the history of the so-called ‘bible’ you love to cherry-pick so ignorantly, and ineffectually! For you, ignorance has been raised to the status of a virtue.

          • GibbyD

            You said , “So you have not read anything that might question your cherished beliefs” —

            Actually I investigated, examined and studied all of that many years ago. You can’t show me specifically anything new that would challenge or change my conclusions. Those have ALL been dispelled, answered and or explained completely and are available to anyone that wants to find them who is not looking for an excuse for their sin and unbelief. And yes , I am very familiar with the history of The Bible. As I have said already a few times , there are problems with the corrupt line of Bibles that had their origin in Alexandria EGYPT. The line that matters and that is indisputable , is the one that had it’s origin in Antioch , where believers were first called Christians.

          • David Cromie

            Did you not notice the publication dates of the academic research you were referred to? This research was not available for you to study ‘many years ago’, and learning is not static, once-for-all in any case! I suspect that you were indoctrinated with a potted christer version of the history of the so-called ‘bible’ at the ‘bible college’ you claim to have attended. So get up to date with the latest research before you comment in future.

          • GibbyD

            You can’t show me specifically anything new.

          • David Cromie

            Only a semi-literate jackass would come out with a statement such as yours, above. I do not do mind-reading!

          • GibbyD

            You understood the context of my statement in relationship to the previous posts and discussion and are now being dishonest. Typical of someone who has no higher standards than what he thinks is right only for himself instead of the standard of what God demands.

            You are important to God David and for that you should be glad. He Loved and cared enough about you that He become a man and bore the sins of the world in His on body while on the cross of Calvary This made a way for you too to be saved. To receive it , you need, “..repentance toward God and faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ “( Acts 20:21)KJB.

          • David Cromie

            I have no idea what this post is supposed to mean, or what ‘context’ you are referring to.

            I referred you to two books of recently published academic research, which you implied were written by liars, and thus, presumably, not for you, even thought you have not accessed either of them How intelligent does that make you?!

          • GibbyD

            I have asked now more than a couple times to demonstrate or show from those books ANYTHING that would prove that The Bible , in particular The King James Bible, cannot be trusted as The Very Words of God.

            I have shown you many reason why you can trust The Bible. The following are some more reasons.

            “Only a very deceived individual could believe that the new versions are equal to the King James Bible. Ninety-five percent of all evidence SUPPORTS the text of the King James Authorized Version. The new versions are supported by the remaining five percent evidence.

            The new “bibles” are supported by two very corrupt fourth century
            manuscripts, known as the “Vaticanus” and the “Siniaticus.” These
            manuscripts are filled with many text alterations to meet the demands of
            Roman Catholic tradition. They also include the Apocrypha, which the
            Lord Jesus Christ EXCLUDED from the Old Testament in Luke 24:44. All
            new versions contain readings from these corrupt manuscripts, and all
            new versions use their tiny five percent evidence to attack the
            ninety-five percent majority text of the King James Bible.

            The Textus Receptus (received text) from which the King James
            Bible came can be traced clear back to Antioch, Syria, where the
            disciples were first called Christians and where Paul and Barnabas
            taught the word of God for a whole year (Acts 11:26). The other
            “bibles” do not come from Antioch. They come from Alexandria, Egypt,
            and from Rome. We don’t need an Egyptian version, for Egypt is a type
            of the WORLD in the Bible. God called His people OUT of Egypt (Exod.
            3-14), and God called His Son out of Egypt (Hos. 11:1 with Matt.
            2:13-15). Why, the Bible says that “every shepherd is an abomination unto the Egyptians”
            in Gen. 46:34, and the Lord Jesus Christ is called a SHEPHERD in John
            chapter ten. Alexandria, Egypt, is associated with SUPERSTITION in Acts
            28:11, and Aquilla and Pricilla had to set an Egyptian straight on his
            doctrine in Acts chapter 18. Alexandrians are also found DISPUTING WITH
            STEPHEN in Acts 6:9. So we don’t need a “bible”
            from Alexandria, Egypt.

            Then there’s the Roman text, also called the “Western Text.” We
            can also do without a Roman “bible”, because it was ROMAN soldiers who
            nailed our Lord to the cross. The harlot of Revelation 17 is a perfect
            description of the Roman Catholic Church, which has persecuted
            Christians for thousands of years. Romans persecuted the Christians in
            Acts18:2, and in 70 A.D. the Romans destroyed Jerusalem. Rome is the
            “dreadful and terrible” beast of Daniel chapter seven, and Christ will
            destroy the “Revised Roman Empire” at the Second Coming (Dan. 2; 7; and
            Rev. 13). It has been estimated that Rome is guilty of the blood of
            some 200 million people who have rejected her corrupt system. A “bible”
            from Rome is another thing we can live without.

            There’s only one line of manuscripts that we can trust, and this
            is the line from Antioch, called the “Syrian” or “Byzantine” type text.
            The word of God speaks POSITIVELY of Antioch, and NEGATIVELY of Rome
            and Egypt. We should TAKE THE BEST AND DUMP THE REST! I know the King
            James Bible is the word of God because of the manuscript evidence.” — J.L. Melton

          • David Cromie

            When you have read the works cited, get back to me!

          • GibbyD

            When you prove to me that you have read them yourself by citing anything from those writings and in particular anything that would lead anyone to believe that the Bible is not The Word of God, then maybe,just maybe, I might.

          • David Cromie

            I do not have to prove anything to you! You, on the other hand, have to vindicate your belief in your supposed ‘god’ by producing the testable, falsifiable, evidence for its real existence. This you have shied away from so far. However, I am still waiting.

            By the way, the various contributors to the works cited are not particularly interested in whether the so-called ‘bible’ is ‘the word of god’ (I expect at least some of them do), only in its evolution from the Codex to the KJV (and the Vulgate).

          • GibbyD

            “testable, falsifiable, evidence” ?
            — I sent the math but you ignored it .

            “evolution from the Codex to the KJV (and the Vulgate)”.
            —- The process to the English Authorized or Jerome’s one man show in Latin , is not as important as the content of the message from all or either. How much of it you accept or understand of that mechanism is immaterial compared to what you do with the primary and vital counsel that is gives as it’s final product.

            You are separated from God because of your sin. (Romans 3:23)

            To apply a remedy you must first admit
            that there is a problem. Admitting that you are a sinner is the first
            step. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the Garden
            of Eden they committed the first sin. Since that time every human has
            been born with that sin nature.

            Romans 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one

            Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

            Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man
            sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon
            all men, for that all have sinned:

            The Bad News

            Because we have sinned God expects a
            payment (wage) for that sin. The only payment He accepts is death. The
            place that God has prepared for sinners is called Hell. All human’s
            destination is Hell because they are all sinners. Death is what we
            deserve because we owe a debt for our sin.

            Romans 6:23a For the wages of sin is death

            The Good News

            There is good news! God loves us so much
            that He offered His only begotten Son, Jesus to pay our sin debt for
            us. This is a gift. The gift is available to every human. When we, ” repent toward God and place our faith and trust toward
            The LORD Jesus Christ” , we are believing that He died for us to pay our debt. We can have
            everlasting life when we believe ( obey from the heart) this doctrinal truth( Romans 6:17). At the moment we believe in what Jesus did on the cross
            our destination changes from Hell to Heaven when we leave this earth.

            Romans 6:23b but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

            Such a big promise

            A couple more steps on the Romans Road show us more promises from our Heavenly Father.

            Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us

            Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

          • David Cromie

            “I sent the math but you ignored it”. I don’t even know what this sentence means! Nowhere have you presented any testable, falsifiable evidence for the truth of any of your deluded claims.

            To render your post intelligible you first need to show that your favourite imaginary ‘god’ actually exists. This you have resolutely refused to do, thus your contribution is dismissed as mere superstitious nonsense.

          • GibbyD

            The mathematical statistical probability concerning the Biblical prophecies are enough to sink your unbelieving ship. Secondly look at the nation of Israel. God revealed Himself through that tiny small nation . If you can’t see that , then you are either lying or insane . Now , go ahead and say anything against the nation of Israel , God’s chosen people and I will make sure to not stand very close to you as God takes His vengeance as He has done with anyone that chose to mess with them. Look at history and see how God has worked through them even though as a nation they are still in unbelief concerning The Messiah . That will change one day.

          • David Cromie

            Mere waffle, and clutching at straws! From what you say, it seems that your supposed ‘god’ treats the universe as a giant casino or private amusement arcade.

          • GibbyD

            If a “casino” then the odds are against you if you don’t play by His rules or cheat. The cards are against you if you don’t accept His free offer of everlasting life through faith and trust in Christ.

            God is “amused” and will laugh at the wicked .

            “How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

            23Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

            24Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

            25But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

            26I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

            27When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

            28Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

            29For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

            30They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

            31Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

            32For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.

            33But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.” ( Proverbs 1:22-33)KJB

          • David Cromie

            I don’t gamble!

          • GibbyD

            I believe you are taking the biggest gamble one could ever make with stakes that are too high to risk losing, your very soul.

          • David Cromie

            You believe lots of crazy things!

          • David Cromie

            Pascal was fond of a gamble, I wonder how that worked out for him (as if we need to ask!).

          • David Cromie

            How could one ‘cheat’, in the scenario you paint, since a supposed omniscient sky fairy already knows the outcome before it has happened. Not much room for ‘freewill’ with this sky fairy, is there.

          • GibbyD

            God knows what will happen because He is omniscient but he does not program us like a computer. There is a difference. Why does anyone cheat , steal, commit adultery or do anything that is not good ? It is in their sin nature. This is why we need the new birth . ( 1st Peter 1:23; 2 Corinthians 5:17; John 3:3)KJB

          • David Cromie

            It is not a bit of a contradiction to say ‘It is in their sin nature’, when we are also told that mankind was fashioned in the image of the OT ‘god’, and thus can only act as this ‘god’ intended? The fact that it is omniscient, means it knew all along that mankind would act in this way, but was not willing to do anything about it, makes your ‘god’ capricious and ridiculous, certainly not ‘loving’, unless it gets its kicks from fomenting human suffering.

          • GibbyD

            Man was created in the image and likeness of God but ,using his free will, fell from the state and now dies.
            God did something about it , THE CROSS. I believe His plan was the only one that allows free will but also sets up a demonstration of love and sacrifice that would draw men to Him willingly once they hear about it . ( Romans 1:16)KJB. I do wonder though why anyone would reject it and suffer the consequences . i do not, as some Christians ( Calvinists) believe, that God programmed some not to be able to believe something that He Himself commands them to believe and trust in , if they want to be saved. Any other difficult serious question can be answered at (Deuteronomy 29:29)KJB.

            And —-> “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
            9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
            10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
            11When
            I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought
            as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
            12For
            now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know
            in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
            13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.( 1st Cor. 13:8-13)KJB

          • David Cromie

            “When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought
            as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things”, such as believing in fairies, even supposed sky fairies.

            By the way, there is no such thing as ‘freewill’, and especially not for religiots who believe in predestination, in other words in a supposed omniscient ‘god’.

            As for ‘caritas’, there is not much evidence of it emanating from fundamentalist christers.

          • GibbyD

            It is not a childish thing to believe in God and His Gospel but it takes a childlike faith to receive it and benefit from it.

            God’s omniscience and His overall greater plans that will happen , do not contradict man having a free will. God knows what each man will do but He does not program it like a person would program a computer.

            A fundamentalist is simply someone that believes in the five fundamentals of the Faith. I find that those that do are more genuine about their love for others than the fake dissimulation that is passed off as love by the non-believer or pretend “believer “

          • David Cromie

            “It is not a childish thing to believe in God…”. It sure is, when there is no evidence that it actually exists. Is that the same childlike faith that allows children to believe fairy stories, bogeymen, and the reality of the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus?

            When we become adults we are supposed to put away childish things, and face reality, not as through a glass darkly, but as it is. So, no ghosts or devils, no imaginary gods. angels, or things that go bump in the night, no gremlins, heaven or hell, etc.

          • David Cromie

            Wot! No soap? If Leviticus specifies running water, why would anyone naively wash their clothes in standing water? What does Leviticus recommend for bacterial infection?

          • GibbyD

            “But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:” ( Malachi 3:2)KJB

          • David Cromie

            The earth is neither ‘hanging’ nor ‘floating’. It spins (with a slight wobble) as it rotates, eliptically, around the sun! Thus we have day and night, and the seasons.

          • GibbyD

            How wise of God to have it so. He would have had to of placed The Earth in space first though.

            Joy and gladness understood (Acts 14:17). Evolution cannot explain emotions. Matter and energy do not feel. Scripture explains that God places gladness in our hearts (Psalm 4:7), and ultimate joy is found only in our Creator’s presence – “in Your presence is fullness of joy” (Psalm 16:11).

          • David Cromie

            Don’t blame me if you are scientifically illiterate!

          • GibbyD

            Do you really want me to list the glaring problems with the theory of Evolution ?

            Also, one hundred years from now, don’t blame me if you say you never had a chance to hear the Gospel .

          • GibbyD

            201. Isaiah 42:1-4…The Servant-as a faithful, patient redeemer… Matthew12:18-21

            202. Isaiah 42:2…Meek and lowly… Matthew 11:28-30

            203. Isaiah 42:3…He brings hope for the hopeless… John 4

            204. Isaiah 42:4…The nations shall wait on His teachings… John 12:20-26

            205. Isaiah 42:6…The Light (salvation) of the Gentiles…Luke 2:32

            206. Isaiah 42:1,6…His is a Worldwide compassion… Matthew 28:19,20

            207. Isaiah 42:7…Blind eyes opened… John 9:25-38

            208. Isaiah 42:13-25…Messiah’s actions at His second coming…Revelation

            209. Isaiah 43:11…He is the only Savior… Acts 4:12

            210. Isaiah 44:3…He will send the Spirit of God… John 16:7,13

            211. Isaiah 45:23…He will be the Judge… John 5:22;Romans. 14:11

            212. Isaiah 48:12…The First and the Last…John 1:30;Rev. 1:8,17

            213. Isaiah 48:17…He came as a Teacher…John 3:2

            214. Isaiah 49:1…Called from the womb-His humanity…Matthew 1:18

            215. Isaiah 49:5…A Servant from the womb…Luke 1:31;Phil. 2:7

            216. Isaiah 49:6…He is Salvation for Israel…Luke 2:29-32

            217. Isaiah 49:6…He is the Light of the Gentiles…Acts 13:47

            218. Isaiah 49:6…He is Salvation unto the ends of the earth… Acts 15:7-18

            219. Isaiah 49:7…He is despised of the Nation… John 8:48-49

            220. Isaiah 50:3…Heaven is clothed in black at His humiliation… Luke 23:44,45

            221. Isaiah 50:4…He is a learned counselor for the weary… Matthew 11:28,29

            222. Isaiah 50:5…The Servant bound willingly to obedience… Matthew 26:39

            223. Isaiah 50:6a…”I gave my back to the smiters.”… Matthew 27:26

            224. Isaiah 50:6b…He was smitten on the cheeks… Matthew 26:67

            225. Isaiah 50:6c…He was spat upon… Matthew 27:30

            226. Isaiah 52:4-5…Suffered vicariously…Mark 15:3,4,27,28; Luke 23:1-25,32-34

            227. Isaiah 52:7…To publish good tidings of peace… Luke 4:14,15

            228. Isaiah 52:13…The Servant exalted…Acts 1:8-11; Ephesians 1:19-22

            229. Isaiah 52:13…Behold, My Servant… Matthew 17:5; Phil. 2:5-8

            230. Isaiah 52:14…The Servant shockingly abused… Luke 18:31-34; Matthew 26:67,68

            231. Isaiah 52:15…Nations startled by message of the Servant… Romans. 15:18-21

            232. Isaiah 52:15…His blood shed to make atonement for all… Rev. 1:5

            233. Isaiah 53:1…His people would not believe Him… John 12:37-38

            234. Isaiah 53:2a…He would grow up in a poor family…. Luke 2:7

            235. Isaiah 53:2b…Appearance of an ordinary man… Phil. 2:7-8

            236. Isaiah 53:3a…Despised…. Luke 4:28-29

            237. Isaiah 53:3b…Rejected… Matthew 27:21-23

            238. Isaiah 53:3c…Great sorrow and grief… Luke 19:41-42

            239. Isaiah 53:3d…Men hide from being associated with Him… Mark 14:50-52

            240. Isaiah 53:4a…He would have a healing ministry… Luke 6:17-19

            241. Isaiah 53:4b…He would bear the sins of the world… 1 Pet. 2:24

            242. Isaiah 53:4c…Thought to be cursed by God… Matthew 27:41-43

            243. Isaiah 53:5a…Bears penalty for mankind’s transgressions… Luke 23:33

            244. Isaiah 53:5b…His sacrifice would provide peace between man and God… Col. 1:20

            245. Isaiah 53:5c…His back would be whipped… Matthew 27:26

            246. Isaiah 53:6a…He would be the sin-bearer for all mankind…Galatians 1:4

            247. Isaiah 53:6b…God’s will that He bear sin for all mankind… 1 John 4:10

            248. Isaiah 53:7a…Oppressed and afflicted… Matthew 27:27-31

            249. Isaiah 53:7b…Silent before his accusers… Matthew 27:12-14

            250. Isaiah 53:7c…Sacrificial lamb… John 1:29

            251. Isaiah 53:8a…Confined and persecuted… Matthew 26:47-27:31

            252. Isaiah 53:8b…He would be judged… John 18:13-22

            253. Isaiah 53:8c…Killed…. Matthew 27:35

            254. Isaiah 53:8d…Dies for the sins of the world… 1 John 2:2

            255. Isaiah 53:9a…Buried in a rich man’s grave… Matthew 27:57

            256. Isaiah 53:9b…Innocent and had done no violence… Mark 15:3

            257. Isaiah 53:9c…No deceit in his mouth… John 18:38

            258. Isaiah 53:10a…God’s will that He die for mankind… John 18:11

            259. Isaiah 53:10b…An offering for sin… Matthew 20:28

            260. Isaiah 53:10c…Resurrected and live forever…. Mark 16:16

            261. Isaiah 53:10d…He would prosper… John 17:1-5

            262. Isaiah 53:11a…God fully satisfied with His suffering… John 12:27

            263. Isaiah 53:11b…God’s servant… Romans. 5:18-19

            264. Isaiah 53:11c…He would justify man before God… Romans. 5:8-9

            265. Isaiah 53:11d…The sin-bearer for all mankind… Hebrews 9:28

            266. Isaiah 53:12a…Exalted by God because of his sacrifice… Matthew 28:18

            267. Isaiah 53:12b…He would give up his life to save mankind… Luke 23:46

            268. Isaiah 53:12c…Grouped with criminals… Luke 23:32

            269. Isaiah 53:12d…Sin-bearer for all mankind… 2 Corinthians 5:21

            270. Isaiah 53:12e…Intercede to God in behalf of mankind… Luke 23:34

            271. Isaiah 55:1…Every one come who is thirsty…New Testament

            272. Isaiah 55:3…Resurrected by God… Acts 13:34

            273. Isaiah 55:4…A witness… John 18:37

            274. Isaiah 55:5…Foreign nations come to God…Acts

            275. Isaiah 59:15-16a…He would come to provide salvation… John 6:40

            276. Isaiah 59:15-16b…Intercessor between man and God… Matthew 10:32

            277. Isaiah 59:20…He would come to Zion as their Redeemer… Luke 2:38

            278. Isaiah 60:1-3…Nations walk in the light…Luke 2:32

            279. Isaiah 61:1-2a…The Spirit of God upon him… Matthew 3:16-17

            280. Isaiah 61:1-2b…The Messiah would preach the good news… Luke 4:17-21

            281. Isaiah 61:1-2c…Provide freedom from the bondage of sin and death… John 8:31-32

            282. Isaiah 61:1-2…Proclaim a period of grace… John 5:24

            283. Isaiah 62:1-2…Called by an new name…Luke 2:32, Revelation 3:12

            284. Isaiah 62:11…Thy King Cometh, Entered Jerusalem on Colt…Matthew 21:7

            285. Isaiah 63:1-3…A vesture dipped in blood…Revelation 19:13

            286. Isaiah 63:8,9…Afflicted with the afflicted…Matthew 25:34-40

            287. Isaiah 65:9…The elect shall inherit…Romans 11 5-7, Hebrews 7:14, Revelation 5:5

            288. Isaiah 65:17-25…New heaven/New Earth…2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1

            289. Isaiah 66:18-19…All nations come to God…New Testament

            290. Jeremiah23:5-6a…Descendant of David…Luke 3:23-31

            291. Jeremiah 23:5-6b…The Messiah would be God… John 13:13

            292. Jeremiah 23:5-6c…The Messiah would be both God and Man… 1 Tim.
            3:1692. Jeremiah 23:5-6c…The Messiah would be both God and Man… 1
            Tim. 3:16

            293. Jeremiah 30:9…Born a King…John 18:37, Revelation 1:5

            294. Jeremiah 31:15…Massacre of infants…Matthew 2:16-18

            295. Jeremiah 31:22…Born of a virgin… Matthew 1:18-20

            296. Jeremiah 31:31…The Messiah would be the new covenant… Matthew 26:28

            297. Jeremiah 33:14-15…Descendant of David… Luke 3:23-31

            298. Ezekiel17:22-24…Descendant of David… Luke 3:23-31

            299. Ezekiel 21:26,27…The humble exalted…Luke 1:52

            300. Ezekiel34:23-24…Descendant of David… Matthew 1:1

          • David Cromie

            Yet more uncorroborated BS from a book of fables and legends. Do you intend to reproduce here the whole of your so-called ‘bible’? It would save you much more time, and solve a lot of problems, if you were to just answer my question!

          • GibbyD

            If you mean “BS” as in Bible Study , well yes.
            The question you have has been answered many times but you keep asking because the god of this world has blinded your mind lest the light of the glorious Gospel should shine unto you.

            “I believe in a literal creation as
            described by Genesis. However, creation (like all biblical miracles) is science either. That doesn’t mean that they didn’t happen. They did happen. But it’s not science.” – Sam M.

            “The word “science” simply means “knowledge.” The
            Genesis creation account scientifically stands rock solid. Unlike Darwinian evolution, it passes the scientific test, because creation can be both observed and tested–with creatures having male and female, each bringing forth after its own kind, just as Genesis says. Knowledge
            that the universe had an initial cause is not a matter of faith, but of science. We can know that it was created, because the alternative is utterly unscientific, absolutely impossible, and ludicrous to a point of insanity.”– R.C.

          • David Cromie

            Prove your thesis, without recourse to fallacious circular argument, mere ‘belief’ or blind ‘faith’.

          • GibbyD

            I have given you enough information and provided the evidence. You have just chosen to ignore it.

            The real reason that you will not accept and believe it ,is because you love the darkness rather than the light because your deeds are evil.

            He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is
            condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only
            begotten Son of God. And
            this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men
            loved darkness rather than light,because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

          • David Cromie

            The only information you have imparted is that you think there is a supposed magical thingy, with the power of creation, up there somewhere, and that you believe Genesis to be ‘scientific’ proof of its existence. As pointed out, circular arguments are fallacious, and thus they are empty claims. This you have ignored. So enlighten me with proper testable evidence for your supposition that your claims are rooted in falsifiable, scientific, facts.

          • GibbyD

            The
            Genesis creation account scientifically stands rock solid.
            Unlike Darwinian evolution, it passes the scientific test, because
            creation can be both observed and tested–with creatures having male and
            female, each bringing forth after its own kind, just as Genesis says.
            Knowledge
            that the universe had an initial cause is not a matter of
            faith, but of science. We can know that it was created, because the
            alternative is utterly unscientific, absolutely impossible, and
            ludicrous to a point of insanity.”– Ray Comfort

          • David Cromie

            What planet are you from? What is this ‘rock solid’ science behind the Garden of Eden myth, and how was it tested? Where was it published in any peer reviewed serious scientific journal (‘Science’, for example)?

          • GibbyD

            You asked , “Has Ray Comfort ever been nominated for an international prize for science, the Nobel Prize for instance?” Well President Obama won it so what does that tell you about it’s value or worth in the eternal perspective.

            Your other question is answered in that since so much of the Bible continues to prove it self trustworthy, All the parts may be also true and not just the parts you agree with.

            Noble behavior understood (John 15:13; Romans 5:7-8).
            The Bible and history reveal that countless people have endangered or
            even sacrificed their lives for another. This reality is completely at
            odds with Darwin’s theory of the survival of the fittest.

            Chicken or egg dilemma solved (Genesis 1:20-22).
            Which came first, the chicken or the egg? This question has plagued
            philosophers for centuries. The Bible states that God created birds with
            the ability to reproduce after their kind. Therefore the chicken was
            created first with the ability to make eggs! Yet, evolution has no
            solution for this dilemma.

            Which came first, proteins or DNA (Revelation 4:11)?
            For evolutionists, the chicken or egg dilemma goes even deeper.
            Chickens consist of proteins. The code for each protein is contained in
            the DNA/RNA system. However, proteins are required in order to
            manufacture DNA. So which came first: proteins or DNA? The ONLY
            explanation is that they were created together.

          • David Cromie

            I was not aware that Obama won a Nobel Prize for advances in scientific knowledge! You obviously do not understand Evolution either.

          • GibbyD

            The Noble prizes for Peace or Science are as much about politics as they are genuine appreciation about any advances in either.

            Evolution cannot be understood and agreed about because it is false.

            The universe had a beginning (Genesis 1:1; Hebrews 1:10-12).Starting with the studies of Albert Einstein in the early 1900s and continuing today, science has confirmed the biblical view that the universe had a beginning. When the Bible was written most people believed the universe was eternal. Science has proven them wrong, but the Bible correct.

          • David Cromie

            Wrong yet again!

          • Jeff O

            We humans are a species of animal. Do you think it an insult to other animal species to say so? Yes, it is possible to teach the human animal species (well, some of them anyway) their ABCs.

            If you are actually interested in the acquisition of language, read Noam Chomsky, Professor of Linguistics, on the subject, it is really fascinating!

            —————————————————————-

            If humans are a species of animal, then why are humans offended when they are called “Animals?”

            The point, no way that human race is the same with animals. Humans have the ability to think, reason, to love, to decide, plan, sense of justice, wisdom.

            But animals don’t. They all base it on their instinct.

          • David Cromie

            That is why humans are a separate species, and the only species capable of abstract thought. It should be noted that some other animal species exhibit some of the traits observed in humans (including homosexuality) to varying degrees, but not across all species by any means. Have you ever owned dogs, for example, but without being anthropomorphic in respect to them?

          • Jeff O

            “Humans are a separate species”

            Now you are contradicting yourself. Is Human species not included in the Animal species?

            “It should be noted that some other animal species exhibit some..”

            So by comparing that animal’s behavior to human behavior, you conclude that “We must be some kind of animal, because some animals can do what we can do”

            Animals don’t have the human capacity to think, it acts because of “Instinct”.

            I owned a dog, but he died.

            Have you ever wonder why Birds Migrate?

          • David Cromie

            Your English comprehension is not really up to scratch, is it?

            Human animals possess an autonomic drive too, but we are not entirely controlled by it. Just one more difference between the human animal and other animals.

            You have not studied the way some animals exhibit their power of thought as they solve problems, and use tools where necessary.

        • namelessghost

          “You need a plug and a socket for there to be any real connection and power.”

          LOL!

          Men have both a plug and a socket, you know. Come to think of it, so do women lol!

          • GibbyD

            No they don’t . There is also no power and no ability to allow life both spiritually and physically . ” For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
            ( Romans 6:23)KJB

            “Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And
            changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to
            corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping
            things.24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25Whochanged the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.26Forthis cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27Andlikewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
            28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Beingfilled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness,maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
            31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.” ( Romans 1:22-32)KJB

          • namelessghost

            Sex isn’t only for procreation. Otherwise, your god wouldn’t allow infertile couples to marry., now would he

            But yeah, keep posting Bible verses because that really proves your point to atheists and others who don’t believe in the Bible.

          • GibbyD

            I know that sex is for married couples. Marriage is what God ordained. Marriage was His idea. Marriage according to the Designer is between a man and a woman.

            For those who hear The Gospel and in response have , ” repented toward God and have placed their faith and trust toward The LORD Jesus Christ ” ( Acts 20:21), there is Everlasting and abundant life and love. ( Romans 6:17,23)KJB
            For those who hear and reject the Gospel and the One Who died for our sins, there remaineth only death and worse, the “second death” described in The Bible.

          • namelessghost

            I think we’ve already confirmed the sketchy types of marriage that are acceptable to your god.

            Fortunately, the Bible is not the law of the land in the US. We have the right to choose to live according to the rules in the Bible, but we cannot be compelled to do so, because we also have the right to choose not to live according to the rules in the Bible.

          • GibbyD

            We are compelled by force of Law to do many of the things The Bible commands . You are right that Government should not be able to stop us from following “the rules” of The Bible . For instance, not participating in sin , the sin of homosexual ceremonies . Thou shalt not steal.

          • namelessghost

            We are compelled to follow the laws of the land whether or not they are also written in the Bible. The Quran also contains many of the same laws that are written in the Bible. Does that mean you are following the laws of the Quran?

            The government doesn’t stop you from following the rules of the Bible. No one is forcing you to participate in a “homosexual ceremony.” Baking a wedding cake does not equal “lying with mankind as with womankind.” Much the same way baking a birthday cake for someone who goes out later that night and kills someone doesn’t make you a murderer.

        • David Cromie

          Marriage is what the law says it is, and what human rights support.

          • Meepestos

            In Canada, bans on same-sex marriage was found unconstitutional and the Supreme Court made it clear that the the definition of marriage is the exclusive responsibility of the federal government.

          • GibbyD

            Marriage is what God and the Bible says it is. The government does not define what and Who God is nor what marriage can include or exclude because marriage in itself is of religious origins and ordained by God. Government may and has recognized marriage and they can make and pass laws, if they are moved by their constituents to do so, creating an institutional legal contract to be available between two of the same sex in order for them to enter into a legal agreement. similar to but still not the same as marriage. Government recognizes marriage and the benefits and rights that go with it and thus they can recognize their legal contract binding agreement version. Marriage though is what God says it is just as much as what The Church, not government, says what “Baptism” is .

          • David Cromie

            The dictates of your imaginary ‘god’ hold no sway, since the US is not a theocracy, no matter what you think.

          • GibbyD

            The United States is a “Representative Democracy” which is a Republic. The majority of Americans and of those, United States Citizens, most believe in God. Of those that believe in God, the majority of that subset profess to be Christians. Of those professing Christians, the largest of those in that number , believe the Bible is The Word of God and that Jesus is God incarnate, that He bore the sins of the world in His own body when He died on the Cross at Calvary and that He arose from the dead. This large number of people believe salvation from Hell and the granting of everlasting and abundant life is obtained through being “born again” . To be born again spiritually, one needs, ” ..repentance toward God and faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ ..” (Acts 20:21)KJB. You see , the ” dictates of the true and living GOD ” have great “sway”,. especially in the United States where our beliefs ARE the majority. This is also the reason God has blessed us, up until recently, with the greatest benefits and blessings that the world has ever seen since He moved in behalf of the nation of Israel . God is not done with Israel though . He will fulfill the rest of HIS promises to them in the near future.

            We are a Republic whose majority believe in God and of those the majority , not just plurality , are professing Christians . That is not just what I think, that is what I know to be true and sure.

          • David Cromie

            There are many nominal, or social, christers, I am sure, and they probably make up the majority of christers. They are content to just get on with their lives, as they network with others for business purposes, etc., and to ‘fit in’. These are not the fundamentalist christers who seek to bring about a theocracy in the US, as they go about their daily business, such aspirations not being on their agenda!

          • GibbyD

            You said , “There are many nominal, or social, christers, I am sure, and they
            probably make up the majority of christers. They are content to just get
            on with their lives, as they network with others for business purposes,
            etc., and to ‘fit in’.” — Only God knows.

            You said, “These are not the fundamentalist christers who seek to bring about a
            theocracy in the US, as they go about their daily business, such
            aspirations not being on their agenda!” —— None that I know personally. Most do not believe that is possible or called for in this dispensation.

          • David Cromie

            You do not seem to know a lot about your fellow fundamentalist christers.

          • Jeff O

            What on earth are you babbling inconsequentially on about?

            ————————————————-

            The Bible at Ecclesiastes 3:11, teaches that humans are suppose to live forever .

  • GibbyD

    The problem is that anyone has the right to be served lunch but you do not have the right to force your server to sit down with you at that table and partake with you.

    • Theodore Fenton

      The function of a server is to serve, not to sit down with you at the table and partake a meal with you.

      • GibbyD

        Exactly my point !! It is one thing to serve someone by selling them a cake or a camera. . It is an entirely different thing to demand that I be forced against my will to participate with you at your perverted and sinful event or ceremony by catering it and or being there to take photographs. The key is the forcing of and or degree of participation.

        • Theodore Fenton

          My point was that servers never sit down with customers to partake in a meal … ever … period. Serving is their function.

          As far as bakers and photographers, if you sell cakes and take photographs, that’s fine. But if you avoid “participating” in wedding ceremonies or taking wedding photographs, then it must be applied across the board, no “participating” in ANY wedding ceremonies, and no taking of ANY wedding photographs.

          • GibbyD

            It is a violation of a person’s constitutional rights to be forced to associate with anyone they do not want to associate with. You would not expect a Jewish man or woman to photograph a KKK or Natzi party event or ceremony and neither should a Christian be forced to participate by serving and or participating at a sexually perverted event or ceremony .

          • Theodore Fenton

            You proceed from a false premise. There is nothing “sexually perverted” about a same-sex marriage ceremony. In fact, mine was held in a local church.

            In any event, if you’re a baker of wedding cakes and you don’t want to provide wedding cakes for gay couples, then just place the appropriate signage in your shop window that informs the unsuspecting public that you do not cater to same-sex marriage ceremonies.

          • GibbyD

            There should be no need to place a sign in a window for something that is obvious. There is no ” marriage” between two people of the same sex. What you may have is a contract for legal purposes but you don’t have a marriage. Marriage was ordained by God for one woman and one man. Because of the hardness of men’s hearts God allowed divorce but from the very beginning it was not to be that way. God hates divorce. It is also a sign of a reprobate mind when anyone thinks that it is ok to have sex with anyone you say or think you “love”. A Christian Baker would probably sell a cake to anybody but they would not nor should they be forced to design a special cake promoting the sin of same sex unions. Bakers should also not be forced to go to the event or ceremony and set up and serve there , which is what the higher end Bakers offer . Theodore, nothing is worth keeping or doing if it means not attaining unto everlasting life and love. Everybody sins for we were all born with a sin nature. The difference between a saved sinner and a lost sinner is that a saved sinner is ashamed of their sin and is trusting The LORD Jesus Christ and the forgiveness of God through Christ to pay the penalty for that sin on the sinners behalf. A lost sinner never agrees with God about their sin and even may express pride about it in an attempt to justify the sin. IN 1st John 1:9 it says , ” if we confess our sins( agree with God that He is right and we are wrong) , He (GOD) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. ” ———- It is impossible to live the Holy life that God demands in order to be saved. This is why God became a man and lived that perfect life for us and died for our sins and arose from the dead. Jesus said , ” Ye MUST be born again ” ( John 3:3; 1st Peter 1:23; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Romans 6:17,23)KJB. Please trust Him completely for what He says . The answer the world needs and what saves a soul forever is , “..repentance toward God and faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ ” ( Acts 20:21)KJB.

          • Theodore Fenton

            Marriage is a civil construct, not some “divine” creation. A true Christian would not own and operate a for-profit business in the first place. Instead, a true Christian would work for a church or a religious organization. Bakeries are not churches.

          • GibbyD

            Christians own many businesses and they don’t have to only work for non-profit organizations. How could you even think so say something like that? Every American citizen has constitutional rights. —-In a free society, any person or group of persons has the right to associate with any other person or group of persons willing to associate with him or it on the basis of any standard and for any reason. And likewise, any person or group of persons has the right not to associate with any other person or group of persons on the basis of any standard and for any reason.

            It doesn’t matter whether a government bureaucrat or a person who was refused association believes that the actions of the refusing person or group are illogical, unreasonable, irrational, hateful, discriminatory, bigoted, or racist. What matters is freedom.

            The freedom of association is just as important as any of the “First Amendment freedoms.” Neither government nor society has the authority to force a person or group to associate with another person or group that they don’t want to associate with. In a free society, it can’t be any other way.

            It is one thing to sell something to someone in a shop or business that is open to the public. It is an other thing and unconstitutional and dead wrong to attempt to force someone to participate with you at an event or place that is contrary to the person’s beliefs and life. It is also a violation the right to privacy.

          • Stephen W.

            Then, form a private club and sell only to members. Don’t open a business catering to the public at large.

          • GibbyD

            Most real Christians will sell a cake to anybody. They draw the line when forced to design a cake the has anything to do with the occult , witchcraft or sexual perversion. The Bakery in question that is one of many like it , advertize that they sell wedding cakes for traditional marriages. A legal union of two of the same gender ,. IS NOT A MARRIAGE , NOR COULD IT EVER BE. You need a plug and a socket for there to be any real connection and power. God designed a man and a woman for a purpose, HIs purpose and not your perversion. The constitution protects people from being forced to participate in somebody else’s sick perverted sin and shame. As I have said before , a business may serve you a meal or sell you a cake or a camera, BUT YOU CANNOT FORCE THEM TO SIT DOWN AND EAT WITH YOU , SET UP AND SERVE THAT CAKE AT YOUR ABOMINATION NOR COMPEL THEM TO PHOTOGRAPH IT . The legal decision at the USA Supreme Court will be based on the degree of PARTICIPATION in accords with the 1st amendment and also the right to privacy. If those Justices in 1973 thought that someone could kill an innocent unborn girl or boy based on the ” right to privacy” , surely they would also include that same basis so as not to force someone to associate and participate in perversion and sin

          • Stephen W.

            Nothing perverted about marriage.

          • GibbyD

            There is nothing perverted about marriage if it is between a man and a woman. Marriage is only between a man and a woman. Nothing else qualifies. Pledged Unions that would infer and include consummation of a carnal nature are only to be for those of different sexes. Also excluded from marriage are any between close family relations and or with anyone that is under legal age. Those and other perversions are an abomination to God and for thousands of years of human history considered wrong and illegal. In the United States and most modern democratic countries, being married to more than one person at a time,is also perverted and illegal.

          • Steen Goddik

            The US Supreme Court says that you are lying. Arguing that a lie must be true to suit your personal belief, that is known as a delusion, a mental health problem.

          • GibbyD

            There has been no case brought before and decided by the Supreme Court as I described it. NOT YET !

          • namelessghost

            “Also excluded from marriage are any between close family relations and
            or with anyone that is under legal age. Those and other perversions
            are an abomination to God and for thousands of years of human history
            considered wrong and illegal.”

            You really think so?

            The characters in the Bible married pubescent (and even younger) girls, had multiple wives and concubines, and they regularly married their cousins. For example, Jacob and his two wives, Rachel and Leah, were first cousins. King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

            There was no age of consent until the 1800s. In 1880, the minimum legal age of consent in most US states was 10. In Delaware it was 7. By 1920, most states had raised it to 16, where it remains today.

            Even in the US today, it is legal to marry your first cousin in 26 states.

          • GibbyD

            There is no evidence in the Bible that God’s people ever married underage girls. A cousin was not “close family relations” like a sister or brother. The Bible forbade that and also an aunt marrying a nephew, etc. If you re-read what I wrote closely, you will see that nothing i said was incorrect. ———————————————————————— “There is nothing perverted about marriage if it is between a man and a
            woman. Marriage is only between a man and a woman. Nothing else
            qualifies. Pledged Unions that would infer and include consummation
            of a carnal nature are only to be for those of different sexes. Also
            excluded from marriage are any between close family relations and or
            with anyone that is under legal age. Those and other perversions are
            an abomination to God and for thousands of years of human history
            ‘considered wrong’ *and illegal. In the United States and most modern
            democratic countries*, being married to more than one person at a time,is
            also perverted and illegal.” — You do not have to marry everyone you think or say you love.

          • namelessghost

            There’s no evidence in the Bible that they didn’t marry underage girls, either. Girls were typically given in marriage when they were old enough to bear children.

            You’re also wrong about the Bible characters not marrying close relatives. Abraham’s wife, Sarah, was also his half-sister (Genesis 20:12). The Bible forbade an aunt marrying her nephew but it was just fine for an uncle to marry his niece (Genesis 11:29, Joshua 15:17, Judges 1:13).

            And according to the Bible, polygyny was neither illegal nor perverted. Moses had 3 wives (Exodus 2:21, Numbers 10:29, Numbers 12:1). King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines (1 Kings 11:1-3). King David had more than 6 wives and numerous concubines (2 Samuel 5:13, 1 Chronicles 3:1-9, 14:3), and these wives were even given to him by God (2 Samuel 12:7-8).

            So… pretty much everything you said was incorrect.

          • GibbyD

            The young women, when of child bearing age, were not given in marriage without the young woman’s consent. This was and is the way among God’s people. .

            As I have said , there was nothing incorrect about my original post.

            Concerning Abraham , you are wrong in assuming that Sarah was his, ” half-sister” . I don’t agree with everything in Matthew Henry’s commentary but he explains it well in the following statement. Remember Abraham had just deceived Abimelech. by calling Sarah his sister and now he continues to try and justify that untruth.

            ” He excused it from the guilt of a downright lie by making it out that, in a sense, she was his sister, Genesis 20:12. Some think she was own sister to Lot, who is called his brother Lot (Genesis 14:16), though he was his nephew so Sarah is called his sister. But those to whom he said, She is my sister,
            understood that she was so his sister as not to be capable of being
            his wife so that it was an equivocation, with an intent to deceive.” –Matthew Henry

            And then I found this summation : “According to Jewish tradition, she was his niece, the daughter of his
            brother Haran who had died, leaving two orphan daughters. Her sister
            was married to Nahor, the other brother.

            Sister can be used to mean kin as well as a real sister, thus he was
            stretching the truth but not lying. While not common, it is not incest
            in Judaism to marry your niece. First-cousin marriages were very common
            until recently”

            Either way , it was before the law was given and not the norm. Again , If you read my original post which you attack, I said nothing incorrect. The Polygamy that you site is mentioned in the Bible and recorded but in the life of Solomon and others there usually was a negative outcome because if it . I made no mention of polygamy in my original post for those Old Testament patriarchs that entering into it back then. I said ” Marriage is only between a man and a woman”. Not a man and a man or a woman and a woman. In each case of polygamy that Solomon and David entered into , it was between a man and a woman.

            Your straw-man arguments do not hold water. Stick with the subject matter and don’t create something I never actually said to attack something that is not the issue

            You keep dodging though the issue at hand and that is that God forbids and considers an abomination homosexual relations.

            You also need to consider the claims of Christ and His presentation of The Gospel to you . God will not force you to trust Him. You have free will and may choose to reject everlasting and abundant life and love. OR , you can have both through , ” ..repentance toward God and faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ ” ( Acts 20:21)KJB.

          • namelessghost

            Girls typically married at age 12 or 13. These “young women of childbearing age” did not have to give their consent to be given in marriage.

            According to Bible History Online:

            “It seems to have been the practice from the beginning for fathers to select wives for their sons (Gen. 24:3; 38:6). Sometimes also proposals were initiated by the father of the maiden (Ex. 2:21). The brothers of the maiden were also sometimes consulted (Gen. 24:51; 34:11), but her own consent was not required. The young man was bound to give a price to the father of the maiden (31:15; 34:12; Ex. 22:16, 17; 1 Sam. 18:23, 25; Ruth 4:10; Hos. 3:2) On these patriarchal customs the Mosaic law made no change.”

            I didn’t “assume” that Sarah was Abraham’s half-sister. He straight up said she was his sister. “And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.”Gen 20:12

            There’s no misinterpreting that as “kin” or whatever other ridiculous excuse you’re trying to sell here.

            Let’s be honest, shall we? I did not attack your post. Unless you call a ‘well-reasoned rebuttal with references to back it up’ an attack. And you did mention polygamy in your post, calling it “being married to more than one person at a time.” You also said it was considered “perversion,” “an abomination to God,” “wrong,” and “illegal.” Obviously, it is none of those things, according to the Bible. God gave wives to David… he did not condemn it. It doesn’t matter how you try to sugarcoat it, in each case of polygamy that Solomon and David (and numerous other important Bible characters) entered into, it was between a man and a woman and a woman and a woman and a woman…

            I’m not dodging the issue here. My comments are directed to you, and are in reply to what you said. I do not believe in your god so it matters not one tiny, bit to me what he considers an abomination. I’m going to eat shellfish and wear whatever I want anyway.

          • GibbyD

            I said that in The United States it is illegal to marry more than one person at a time . You edited out that part. Here is exactly what i said.” In the United States and most modern democratic countries, being married
            to more than one person at a time,is also perverted and illegal.” Again I have to repeat what I said. I mentioned Polygamy , if you read exactly what I said in connection to THE OLD TESTAMENT. The United States did not exist while God was dealing with Israel in the old covenant. Here are my exact words. ” . I made no mention of polygamy in my original post for those Old Testament patriarchs that entering into it back then.” . So I was telling the truth and you were twisting and spinning and sinning by lying about what I said.

            There is absolutely no evidence in the Bible that underage( less than child bearing age) women were given in marriage by God’s chosen people, or those in the New Testament among His Church. Those women of God’s people had to give their consent to accept or reject those arranged marriages. SHE COULD REFUSE and that refusal would be honored. For example the words from Genesis 24:58)KJB state: “And they said, We will call the damsel, and inquire at her mouth.
            58And they called Rebekah, and said unto her, Wilt thou go with this man? And she said, I will go.” The women of God’s people in both the Old and New Testaments had the final say. Her consent was REQUIRED !!

            Concerning Sarah and Abraham, you forget that Abraham had already outright lied to Abimelech about Sarah. After God revealed in a dream to Abimelech that Sarah was Abraham’s wife , Abraham continues not to be 100 % truthful trying to justify what he already told him. Sarah was not his sister though nor direct blood sister through his dad. She was probably his niece through his brother Haran who had died . Just as his nephew Lot is called his brother, a niece could be called his sister ( Genesis 14:12,16)KJB. LOOK IT UP AND READ IT. . Sarah is called a sister but actually a niece through his brother Haran. And again this is all before the law of Moses was even given.

            I said the perversion and illegality was in connection to marrying close relations . That would be your full blood sister or mom. Those things were done by the heathen nations. It would also be perversion to do what centuries later, Islam would allow. In relationship to OLD TESTAMENT Polygamy , I said it usually had bad outcomes. And in those cases the marriages were all between a man and a woman. There were several marriages but the wives of those marriages were not one with each other. It was NEVER between “a man and woman and a woman and a woman”. Each marriage was separate. There were also not many of them among the people because only some had the wealth and means to have more than one .

            You said , ” I’m going to eat shellfish and wear whatever I want anyway.”. What does that matter? That has nothing to do with this age and dispensation of God’s plan. The Bible says that ” Christ is the end of the law to them that believe”–“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth” 10-4 ? Yes , (Romans 10:4)KJB. If you need further understanding of this truth , real Galatians chapter 5, or better yet all of Galatians and The Book of Romans. The 613 Old Testament laws were given to Israel. They did not keep them very well anyway and so God also gave them the sacrificial system. The Bible says though that not even that could take away their sin. It only COVERED ( Yom Kipor) it
            . It was only after God became a man in the person of The LORD Jesus Christ could their be blood HOLY enough and sufficient to TAKE AWAY our sins. The LORD Jesus fulfills over 333 prophecies about Himself. Some of those prophecies were written thousands of years before He was became a man and was born in Bethlehem. The LORD existed forever before that as The WORD of God. And The Word was God. ( John 1:1-14; Isaiah 9:6)KJB.

            Your so called, “well-reasoned rebuttal with references” are neither properly reasoned through or referenced.

            Original post : “There is nothing perverted about marriage if it is between a man and a
            woman. Marriage is only between a man and a woman. Nothing else
            qualifies. Pledged Unions that would infer and include consummation
            of a carnal nature are only to be for those of different sexes. Also
            excluded from marriage are any between close family relations and or
            with anyone that is under legal age. Those and other perversions are
            an abomination to God and for thousands of years of human history
            considered wrong and illegal. In the United States and most modern
            democratic countries, being married to more than one person at a time,is
            also perverted and illegal.”

            You say you do not believe in my God ? Well , my God is “a Spirit” ( John 4:24)KJB. The identity of that Spirit is found in (1st John 4:7,8)KJB. If you say you do not believe in my God then you are saying you do not believe in LOVE. Love is more than a feeling or emotion. IT , HE is the God of all the universe. If you knew what LOVE was , then you would know what and WHO God is. More than 2000 years ago in fulfillment of prophecy , LOVE became incarnate in The person of The LORD Jesus Christ . LOVE has intellect , sensibility and free will . Love is a person and His name is THE LORD Jesus Christ . Trust Him . Turn to Him and confess your imperfections and sins. At the same time trust Him that that shed blood at Calvary and His death on the Cross when He bore the Wrath they we deserve , was payment for our sin debt.

          • namelessghost

            You don’t have to keep reposting your original post. I know what you said. You are the one who tied the Old Testament into it when you said:

            “Those and other perversions are an abomination to God and for thousands of years of human history considered wrong and illegal.”

            Your definition of an acceptable marriage is based on what you believe your god says in the Bible. I’m pointing out the perverted and immoral types of marriage that are acceptable to your god, as written in the Bible. It doesn’t matter if some of the polygamous marriages in the Old Testament had bad outcomes. What matters is that it was accepted, allowed, and endorsed by your god, as written in the Bible.

            “Those women of God’s people had to give their consent to accept or reject those arranged marriages. SHE COULD REFUSE and that refusal would be honored.”

            On some occasions the bride was asked for her consent, sure, but it was certainly not required.

            Concerning Sarah and Abraham, I didn’t forget anything. I’m saying that Abraham wasn’t lying when he said Sarah was his sister. The Bible doesn’t say that Abraham lied, or that he asked his wife to lie when he asked her to say she was his sister. And God never said anything to Abraham about this supposed lie, either. Abraham chose to refer to her as his sister when it was of benefit to him. Otherwise he referred to her as his wife. Because she was both.

            “You said , ” I’m going to eat shellfish and wear whatever I want anyway.”. What does that matter?”

            Those are just some of the ridiculous (i.e. not abominable) things that your god considers an abomination.

            ” It was NEVER between “a man and woman and a woman and a woman”. Each marriage was separate.”

            Ok, each polygamous marriage was between a man and women. Is that better?

            It’s still not a man and a woman, though.

            “The Bible says that ” Christ is the end of the law to them that believe”

            It also says that the law would not be fulfilled until Christ’s second coming at the end of heaven and earth:

            Matthew 5:17-20 King James Version (KJV)

            17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

            18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

            19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

            20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

            “Your so called, “well-reasoned rebuttal with references” are
            neither properly reasoned through or referenced.”

            My posts are perfectly reasonable and I cited references. A lot of them.

            “You say you do not believe in my God ?”

            That’s right, I do not believe in your god. I do, however, believe in love.

          • GibbyD

            I stand by what I said. You can try and spin it anyway you want.
            Marriage has always been a union of a man and a woman .

            “The law and the prophets were until John:” ( Luke 16:16)KJB .

            Matthew 5:17-20 was said before Christ went to the cross , died for our sins , arose , ascended and poured out His Holy Spirit starting The Church in Acts 2. Christ did fulfill all the requirements of the law He accomplished it all and said ” It is Finished”.

            Matthew 5:18 is speaking about the rest of things that will be fulfilled and yes the law , The WORD of God is forever. Those that the law are still bringing to Christ will continue to come until that last person is saved that God knows will be saved. The law brings us to Christ and then Christ become the end of The law to all who believe.

            The only way for your or my righteousness to exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees is for it to be perfect . The only way that can happen is for it to be granted to us by faith and imputed to our account undeserved and from the only One that is Perfect and that is LOVE incarnate Himself , The LORD Jesus Christ .

            Romans 3:31 says the law was not annihilated and is still in effect for somebody. It just cannot be used as a vehicle for salvation in this age. ( Gal. 3:22-26; Romans 3:20; 6:14; 7:4-6: Acts 13:38-39). Matthew 5:17 is referring to the Torah , the first five books of Moses . The Prophets include all the major and minor prophets even Gad, Samuel Davis Elijah , Elisha etc. Verses 17-18 are saying that everything in the old testament that has yet been fulfilled , will be in the future, this includes the return of Christ.

            You say you believe in ‘love” . How powerful do you believe Love is? I believe The Bible declares it to be more than you realize.

          • namelessghost

            You are the one who is doing all the spinning. But I understand – it’s what you Christians have to do to make the Bible say what you want it to say in order to justify your belief. You guys are so conditioned to making excuses for the things in your bible, in a feeble attempt to convince others it’s somewhat reasonable, you don’t even realize you’re doing it.

            We remain unconvinced.

          • GibbyD

            You are the one who is doing all the spinning. But I understand – it’s
            what you Evolutionists have to do to make the false theory say what you want it to say in order to justify your belief. You guys are so conditioned to
            making excuses for the things in your atheism , in a feeble attempt to
            convince others it’s somewhat reasonable, you don’t even realize you’re
            doing it.

          • namelessghost

            We’re not talking about evolution. And I am not an “Evolutionist.” I believe in evolution, of course, just like I believe in electromagnetism or any other scientific theory. I do not worship scientific theories.

            There are no “things” in my atheism to make excuses for. I don’t have an ancient “holy” book that I have to jump through hoops to interpret in
            ways that suit me and then try to force others to live by it. I don’t believe in any gods. Period. I don’t care if you or anyone else thinks that’s reasonable or not.

          • GibbyD

            There are no “hoops to jump through” concerning the Bible . To benefit from The Bible , you simply need to properly read it , understand it and believe. The very few places some think are contradictory are all answered and can be explained completely to and accepted by any reasonable person. I don’t believe in “gods” either, I believe in GOD. He revealed Himself and that information is available to those who want to know. Until you want to know the Truth, you never will find It. All you will be doing is dealing and distracting yourself with the math, physics and substance of everything God made. It was all placed there ultimately to draw you to Himself so He can show you not just the facts by the meaning and the why for it all.

          • namelessghost

            Bible-believing Christians often strongly disagree on interpretation and doctrine. And they all think their interpretation is right.

            I said I don’t believe in any gods. That includes your god… you know, the god that you believe in that you just call God.

          • GibbyD

            We agree upon The Fundamentals of the Faith which unite us and for which we all do agree upon. Some of those are : 1 The Deity of The LORD Jesus Christ . 2. Salvation by grace through faith 3. . The Preeminence and Final authority of The Bible. 4. The life, death , burial and literal bodily Resurrection of The LORD Jesus Christ .

            God became a man in The Person of The LORD Jesus Christ . ( John 1:14; Isaiah9:6)KJB. The LORD Jesus fulfills over 333 prophecies concerning Himself. That is mathematically statistically virtually impossible BUT The LORD Jesus Christ fulfills them all anyway.

          • namelessghost

            No, you guys don’t even agree on those four things. Nos 1 and 4, yes, but 2 and 3, no.

          • Steen Goddik

            But if you run a business, then you have to follow the law.

          • GibbyD

            The United States Constitution is the Supreme Law of The Land . We had a revolt and an American Revolution fought in this land because of people like you that wanted Government to suppress and tell God fearing people what they could and could not do. We will probably have another violent bloody revolution if the Godless and wicked sinners in this nation do not respect the rights of those that want to live their lives in deference to what they believe The LORD Jesus Christ want them to be doing. My strong suggestion to you , before it is too late, is that you seek The LORD while He may be found , humble yourself before Him and seek the cleansing that comes through , “..repentance toward God and faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ ” ( Acts 20:21; 1st John 5:13; Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 6:17,23; 2 Corinthians 5:17; John 3:3; 1st Peter 1:23; Philippians 1:6; Acts 16:31)KJB. ———————————- NOTHING you will ever do will be more important because this will effect your eternity .

          • Steen Goddik

            So you reject the supreme law of the land. Yes, you sure are a traitor. Thanks for admitting it. The FBI better monitor you religious anti-American groups better. You are much closer than ISIS.

          • GibbyD

            A us district court ruling is not The United States Constitution that protects my 1st amendment right , my 4th amendment right and right to privacy. These top and loser court misguided ruling. And if the courts continue to legislate from the bench , we also have within the constitution means to disassemble what we have in Government and correct it by calling for a Convention of The States . That is where we are headed. That is what will protect us from another bloody and violent revolution . The founders and framers knew what they were doing.

          • Steen Goddik

            You are lying. You are actually outright lying, bearing false witness. Wow.

            The law is clear that you are not allowed to discriminate against the customers, the tax payers whose taxes support the business infrastructure, which you benefit from with having your business license . It is sad that you need to lie.

          • GibbyD

            There is no discrimination happening at those Christian owned bakeries. Any homosexual may have designed for him or her a wedding cake and have it delivered and served if it is for them to have for their opposite sex partner .

          • Steen Goddik

            So you admit bigotry and discrimination. And that you are lying. That kind of settles it solidly, then

          • GibbyD

            it is not discrimination if both a homosexual or herterosexual may have a special wedding cake made for them and their opposite sex partner.

          • Steen Goddik

            Sure it is.

          • Steen Goddik

            More astonishing ignorance of the legal system. Your claim is false.

          • GibbyD

            A convention of states is a convention called by the state legislatures for the purpose of proposing amendments to the Constitution. They are given power to do this under Article V of the Constitution. It is not a constitutional convention.

          • Steen Goddik

            Still not binding.

          • GibbyD

            Once convened and amendments ratified by a sufficient number of states , those laws that will bring in check the out of control Judiciary and Executive branches of our Government , will indeed become binding law just as our present laws are suppose to be but are not , at the moment, because of a lawless tyrannical President and politically motivated judges and Justices.

          • Steen Goddik

            Your business license says otherwise.

          • GibbyD

            The business plan and description of operation specifically spells out what the business will and will not do. The Constitution protects the business owner as much as it does any other U.S. citizen .

          • Steen Goddik

            And yet, to have a business license, the owner must follow the law.

          • GibbyD

            The USA constitution is the Supreme Law of the land not a lower court ruling that is not in accord with it .

          • Bob Johnson

            And all these new state laws, when reviewed by the Federal courts (at every level) fail to meet the U. S. Constitution. (Many of these laws even fail at the state level, being against the state’s constitution.)

          • GibbyD

            The Constitution protects the rights given by God. These would include free speech , association by inference and The right to privacy . These will be the basis when the right case comes forward that the Supreme Court will decide to protect the conscious of a Christian and or person of faith that refuses to PARTICIPATE in that which he morally objects to . You will not be able to force a Jewish person to serve in any capacity at a natzi or kkk event . He or she will not have to be forced to lose their business if they refuse.

          • Steen Goddik

            But the US Supreme Court rulings certainly are. As are lower court ruling that the US Supreme Court let stand.

          • GibbyD

            The Supreme Court did no decide anything to do with Christian business owners refusing to participate at homosecual events and or them using their creative talent to design specific items with ideological and political content for which those Christian businesses disagreed with . There was no lower court ruling that addressed what I am saying . Actually the Government should not be in the business of giving permission for anyone to be joined in a agreed to union. Marriages are religious observed statuses that the state has no business interfering in

          • Bob Johnson

            “Marriages are religious observed statuses that the state has no business interfering in”

            Legal marriage provides many legal rights – some 1500 federal and state privileges associated with that legal document. So if the governments gets out of the marriage business all those laws should also be revoked.

          • GibbyD

            All those contracts would be valid and recognized but it would take government out of the marriage permitting business. We should not have to go to the government for a marriage license. We do not need the Government to give permission to marry. The Government should only be allowed to recognise a legitimate agreed to union. ” all those laws ” pertaining to inheritance , children’s welfare and benefits would be honored by a simple recognition of the marriage and or contract between parties.

          • Steen Goddik

            It’s representatives have. You know nothing of the legal system, apparently.

          • GibbyD

            I texted that The Supreme Court did not decide anything to do with Christian business owners refusing to participate at homosecual events and or them using their creative talent to design specific items with ideological and political content for which those Christian businesses disagreed with . At present many states and localities do issue marriage licenses but it is of my opinion that they need to stop that because marriage is a religious institution and couples do not need the state to grant permission to marry. The state may recognise a marriage or contract of two for the purpose of legal matters and the benefits of children but they should not be permitting or forbidding . There are other legalities that they may enter to decide matters but it is wrong generally to have to get permission ( a license) from the state to enter into a religious covenant , in this case a marriage .

          • Steen Goddik

            Marriage is defined in the legal codes, so your “opinion” doesn’t matter a hill of beans.

          • GibbyD

            Most states only recognize marriage for purposes of property and legal benefits . There are some stipulations for that allowance and or recognition. The state though does NOT enter into the spiritual or religious significance of marriage as the Bible or a Church would demand.

            ,
            The State governments decide who can marry based on :
            (1) Parties able to contract;

            (2) An actual contract; and

            (3) Consummation according to law.

            There are several things that most States cite that would disallow an recognition or allowance to marry(form a contract that includes physical intimacy).

            —-Degrees of relationship within which intermarriage prohibited; penalty; effect of prohibited marriage

            (a) Any person who marries a person to whom he knows he is related, either by blood or by marriage, as follows:

            (1) Father and daughter or stepdaughter;

            (2) Mother and son or stepson;

            (3) Brother and sister of the whole blood or the half blood;

            (4) Grandparent and grandchild;

            (5) Aunt and nephew; or

            (6) Uncle and niece

            shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than one nor more than three years.

            (b) Marriages declared to be unlawful under subsection (a) of this Code section shall be void from their inception.

            Would you be in favor of any of the preceding to be able to marry legally ? These forbidden relationship have more than just health concerns, the state is also understanding that there is a moral problem involved.

          • Steen Goddik

            The US Supreme Court has ruled business licenses legal. So your pathetic armchair lawyering is meaninglessness

          • GibbyD

            I say again , The Supreme Court did not decide anything to do with Christian business owner’s constitutional rights to refuse to participate at homosecual events and or refusing to use their creative talent to design specific items with ideological, political or otherwise any content for which those Christian businesses disagreed with .

          • Steen Goddik

            They didn’t need to. Anybody running a business under a business license, they have to follow the non-discrimination laws in place.

          • GibbyD

            They can refuse to serve barefoot and shirtless people at restaurants because those actions by would be patrons are actions on their part and not unchanging characteristics such as gender or race. It will be decided by the Supreme Court some day and in accord with the Constitution that sexual behaviour choice does not give someone special or more privilege than the general population . Sexual behaviour choices will take a back seat to the religious free exercise clause afforded by the 1st amendment. Free speech and religious liberty will not be prohibited because of the sexaul sin practices.

          • Steen Goddik

            If you run a business, then you have to follow the law, including not discriminating. If you don’t like that then don’t run a business

          • GibbyD

            The businesses in question sell specific products and services. Those did not include what the homosexuals were looking for. If you went to a KFC you should not demand that they sell Whoppers. If you went to a CHRISTIAN Baker that sells wedding cakes and caters to Biblical traditional weddings , you should not expect him to design , and cater at something other than that. The Supreme Court will decided these cases based on the degree of forced participation which would violate the 1st amendment and also the right to privacy .

          • Stephen W.

            Did these so-called “Christian” bakers display visible and appropriate signage to warn the unsuspecting public that they only create wedding cakes for so-called “Biblical traditional weddings”? If not, why not?

          • GibbyD

            Christian Bakers , photographers , caterers , etc. do not need a sign that says they do not participate in sinful activity or provide products that do not exist. A marriage is only that between a man and a woman. A homosexual may buy a generic wedding cake for sale at a Bakery owned by a Christian but that homosexual does not have the right to force him or her to CREATE and DESIGN specifically for an ideology , politic or sexual behaviour that he disagrees with. That Homosexual also does not have the right to force said Christian baker to go to the homosexual event or ceremony and participate by setting up and or serving . Freedom in creative expression and ideas are protected by the first amendment . You cannot force someone to express and display ideas that they do not agree with .

          • Steen Goddik

            As long as the wedding cake has a biblical theme,the owner can’t refuse to sell to a homosexual couple having a Christian wedding.

            On the other hand, the stores in question sold all kind of wedding cakes without an explicitly Christian theme. They were general bakeries. So they also broke the conditions of their license, and therefore broke the law.

          • GibbyD

            A Christian man or woman cannot be compelled to participate in something that he does not believe in nor use his creative talents against his will. The US constitution is the Supreme Law of the land not any lower court ruling that is not in accord with it .

          • Bob Johnson

            But these rulings are in accord with higher court rulings and U. S. case law.

          • GibbyD

            The U.S Constitution is the supreme law of the land . If the justices of the supreme court will not apply the language and edicts of the constitution as it is plainly written , the people will have to call a convention of the states and correct those lawless justices and judges in the lower courts who think they can legislate from the bench . The convention of the states to correct and bring into balance an out of control judiciary , is the only thing that will correct the problem and prevent a violent revolution .

          • Steen Goddik

            Now you are lying again. The store can limit it’s products, but not it’s customers. So you can specialize the product your bakery makes, but not who the customer is. And there is no case where a a bakery has been forced to provide a product they don’t normally provide. The court cases have been over bakeries refusing to make a regular wedding cake similar to the wedding cakes they have made for others .

            So Gibby, you are lying. You are bearing false witness. What are shameful sinner you are, using God as an excuse for your lies. All so you can be a bigot spewing hate at homosexuals. What a blaspheme you are.

          • GibbyD

            “A Christian man or woman cannot be compelled to participate in something that he does not believe in nor use his creative talents against his will. The US constitution is the Supreme Law of the land not any lower court ruling that is not in accord with it .” This was and is a true statement.

            The participation of the Christian business person can be limited to selling an item. A homosexual cannot demand that the business owner go to the event and participate against his will. You would no more demand a Black man or woman to cater or photograph a KKK or nazi event than you should compel a real Christian to do the same at a Homosexual themed event .

            The Christian business owner has limited products that do not include designing , using their creative talent , something that promotes sin or is against a businessman’s ideology and beliefs. The Bakers in question did sell them cakes in the past but would not sell one designed promoting homosexual sin.

          • Bob Johnson

            Actually, you are making two errors.

            First , the Civil Rights acts (there have been several) includes sale of both products and services. So if part of the bakery’s normal business is to deliver and set up the wedding cake then those services are covered under the law.

            Second, the Civil Rights acts only apply to protected classes of people – race, color, and sex. Over the years additional classes have been added, such as religion, and veterans – some states (not all) have added sexual orientation. If you live in one of those states you must provide products and services to all protected groups.

            The KKK, Democrats, Republicans, and NFL fans are not protected groups, you are free to refuse service to a Dallas Cowboy fan.

          • GibbyD

            What kind of sex you want to have does not give you the same protected status as race, religion or gender. In fact the violation is against the Christian because of his religion which is a long standing protected class . The protection of someone’s religious belief and identity will trump that of those that want to group themselves according to what their sexual practice is .

          • Steen Goddik

            And, you’re lying again.

          • GibbyD

            No , I am not

          • Steen Goddik

            We already showed your lies, so denying them is just more lying

          • GibbyD

            The longer you kid yourself and procrastinate trusting Christ , the riskier it is that you may enter into eternity without Him and spend forever in Hell and The Lake of Fire. That would not be good. The Bible has been right concerning prophecy so why would it be wrong about the place called Hell ? Please don’t take the chance and be lost forever.

  • Prohet Fred E Robinson

    Christians are missing the boat! This is not about flesh and blood but unclean spirits in those who call themselves gay or transgender!
    It’s got to be emphasized that we as Christians must rejects resist and rebuke unclean evil spirits. And that these people are under the control and have in them ungodly unclean deceiving spirits which we as Christians in The Body of Christ are to Never have company with!
    This is an all out war against Christ and God in us! We must not allow the ungodly circus to perform in The Church which is The Body of Christ!
    This is that little leaven Christ warned us about trying to leaven the whole lump!!! Wake up Christians! Make it clear what we are resisting! It is not seen with the naked eye! But we see it by The Spirit of Christ and God The Father in Us In Christ!!!!
    Christ Ordained Prophet Fred E Robinson!!!

    • Steen Goddik

      You love sin, because it gives you sinners to hate. Very sad, your need to hate.

    • Prohet Fred E Robinson

      Facebook has shut down 3 of my pages because of my post here. And every time I try to complain and as soon as I mention Gays have unclean spirits in them my complaint is deleted before my eyes and I’m prevented from trying to resend. These ungodly unclean Spirits know who I am and love the fight according to this world. But fear The Spirit of God, the truth I am telling about who and what they are and what we’re up against. And identify them and change the fight dynamics all together. We as Christians must make it clear that the world is witnessing the rise of unclean ungodly spirits working to try and have their way! Paul tell us we are not up against flesh and blood we see with our eyes, but ungodly dark deceiving spirit in high places!!! This require putting on the whole Armor of God because this is Spiritual Warfare!!!

  • TopnColorado

    This judge will have to answer for his decision on this case.I will not accept man’s law saying same sex marriage is legal when God has said it’s an abomination! Pound sand your honor!

    • Steen Goddik

      Doesn’t matter. The law is what the legal codes say. And per the US Constitution, what you claim God to say doesn’t matter a hoot to the legal codes.

      Am I correct in assuming that you are an anti-American traitor rejecting the US Constitution?

    • David Cromie

      You do not have to avail yourself of SSM law, if you are not a homosexual yourself!

  • 201821208 :)

    gotquestions dot org/gay-marriage dot html

  • Theodore Fenton

    When a gay couple brings a lawsuit against a so-called Christian-owned business because of discrimination at the hands of that business, this is labeled as Christian persecution.

    When a gay couple takes to social media, in lieu of bringing legal action, to make public the discrimination they received at the hands of a so-called Christian-owned business, this is labeled as Christian persecution.

    When businesses in Mississippi exercise their freedoms by placing signage in their shop windows that reads “We Don’t Discriminate – If You’re Buying, We’re selling,” this is labeled as Christian persecution.

    Anyone else see a pattern here?

  • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

    Christians have every right to discriminate against the wicked. Businesses have every right to determine what their services are and to whom they market those services. Everyone in obliged to obey the Word of God. The Federal Government now thinks it is god and demands we worship and obey it. NO!

    • Steen Goddik

      The Federal law sets the rules for a business. If you can’t follow those rules, then you can’t run a business.

      • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

        The Constitution forbids the Federal government regulating intrastate business.
        The Constitution forbids Federal laws effecting free exercise of religion.

        • Steen Goddik

          More nonsense, in order to justify your bigotry.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            By what authority to you condemn “bigotry”?

          • Steen Goddik

            By the authority of me having free speech.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            There is only one place prepared for autonomous man.

        • Steen Goddik

          And the Constitution specifically prohibits any federal law that establishes any religion. So no judge is allowed to promote a specific religion. Your armchair layering in defense of your christofascist bigotry is not going very well.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            The establishment of religion in the Constitution refers to a State Church as in the Church of England. And the 1st Amendment prohibits Congress from establishing such a national state church. There were several established churches among the states. This was never intended to make Islam, Hinduism or Atheism equal with Christianity. Nor was it a problem as long as the Federal government remained within its enumerated powers, which it did not. Today the feds are totalitarian and have established secularism as the state sponsored religion. And it is that secularists that are the fascisti.

    • Jolanda Tiellemans

      Well at least you’re admitting that Christians discriminate against LGBT people.

      • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

        And what exactly is wrong with discrimination? To discriminate is to make a distinction. In this case between what God calls good and what He calls an abomination.

        • Steen Goddik

          Matt 22:39, that’s what is wrong with it, bigot.

          • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

            Bigotry does not consist of believing and obeying God.

          • Steen Goddik

            And therefore, yes you are a bigot.

  • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

    What we are seeing is not simply the moral collapse of America, but a global war on Christ. From ISIS, to the LGBT radicals, to :Black Lives Matter, to the Democratic Party, to corporate America, to the E.U. to the courts and the President, to the Public Schools, to the Vatican, to contemporary “evangelical” churches, everywhere, Bible believing Christians are targeted for suppression and destruction. The world has no intention of leaving us in peace. Satan has declared open war on the Saints globally for he knows his time is short.

    • Steen Goddik

      No, it is a global war on bigotry. Sad, that your version of Christianity is the discrimination from the church of hate.

    • Jalapeno

      You know whos’ being targeted?

      People who can’t follow the law. People who can’t play well with others. Everyone else is just fine.

    • https://disqus.com/home/channel/faithreligion/ ♛ Lady Checkmate ♜

      I agree w/everything in your comment, except for the BLM statement.

    • Steen Goddik

      Nah, we are simply tired of the bigots and the discrimination from fundie haters

    • BigHobbit

      Requiring business owners to comply with consumer protection laws is NOT religious persecution. Don’t be such a drama queen.
      Nobody is FORCED to sell wedding cakes to the gays, because nobody is FORCED to sell wedding cakes to the public. If you CHOOSE to do business with the public, you CHOOSE to be subject to all the same rules, regulations and laws that everyone has to comply with.

    • BigHobbit

      Millions of American Christians manage to sell stuff in public without violating consumer protection laws like anti discrimination regulations.
      A very small handful of anti gay folks are claiming a special religious “right” to violate the law. They don’t represent ALL Christians, not even MOST Christians.
      It isn’t a “war” on Christans, it is enforcement of commercial regulations that millions of other Christians have no problem complying with.

      • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

        A few years ago sodomy was a crime and punished as such. Those laws agreed with God’s Law. God’s moral Law does not change. Civil laws ought to conform to God’s Law. He still calls sodomy an abomination and promises that all who practice it will have their part in the Lake of Fire.

        • BigHobbit

          A few years ago owning slaves was legal, and a slave who ran away was a criminal, with entire conformance to the biblical interpretation at the time.
          Does your interpretation of God’s law require bringing back slavery?

  • https://disqus.com/home/channel/fakethoughtsandprayers/ Chip01

    U.S. District Judge Carlton Reeves found that the “religious freedom” law of Mississippi unconstitutionally establishes preferred beliefs and creates unequal treatment for gay people.

    It is “the state’s attempt to put LGBT citizens back in their place” in response to last summer’s Supreme Court ruling that legalized gay marriage nationwide.

    Nope. Can’t do that ad law MS…, and then try to claim we live in the land of the free.

  • Peter Leh

    So the southern baptists are STILL opposing equal protection of american citizens.. I suppose they took back the 1995 apology for doing the same to the black community for 150 years?

  • Stephen W.

    Once upon a time, slavery was overwhelmingly supported by the people of Mississippi.

    • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

      The argument you are making is that morality and justice are determined of majority opinion. In which case Rowe v. Wade and Lawrence v. Texas were invalid and tyranny.
      Of course the next question must be, why is majority opinion better than minority? In the end you have Mao’s dictum, “Truth comes out of the barrel of a gun.”

      • Edward MacGuire

        Not Truth ,
        “Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.” “Problems of War and Strategy” (November 6, 1938), Selected Works, Vol. II, p. 224. Mao Tse Tung

  • BigHobbit

    Equal rights and justice for all. True American values. Even for those your pastor says are unworthy.

  • BigHobbit

    Millions of American Christians manage to sell stuff in public every day without violating consumer protection laws, including anti-discrimination regulations.
    A small half dozen anti-gay business owners are trying to get a special religious “right” to violate consumer protection laws.
    They obviously do not represent ALL Christians, they do not even represent MOST Christians.
    Westboro Baptist does the same logical thing – they claim THE Christian point of view, but really, the only thing they really have is A Christian point of view, a minority point of view.

  • BigHobbit

    Millions of Americans belong to churches that ordain gay clergy and celebrate same sex marriages. What about THEIR religious freedom?

  • BigHobbit

    Americans always have right to not have jobs that their beliefs conflict with. They are free to refrain from selling any product their beliefs prevent them from selling lawfully.
    YOUR belief, YOUR responsibility to pick a job or business where YOUR beliefs are not in conflict with the requirements.

  • crisette

    As a resident is this state, I have a few things to say. First, this is a bill that was passed because we wanted it to be passed. Our Governor knew this, so he signed It. Secondly, this law does not discriminate against anyone, but protects the rights of everyone. Whether christian, muslim, or jew,g ay, or straight, black or white, this law protects each group by saying you are entitled to your beliefs and no one can prosecute you for them. Thirdly, Mr. Hood needs to remember that he is an elected official and if he does not fulfill the will of the residents of MS, then he can be recalled.