U.S. Supreme Court Nominee Neil Gorsuch: Roe v. Wade Is ‘Precedent’ and Has Been ‘Repeatedly Reaffirmed’

WASHINGTON — During his first day of questioning for his Senate confirmation hearing, Trump U.S. Supreme Court nominee Neil Gorsuch stated firmly that he believes Roe v. Wade is precedent and has been repeatedly reaffirmed, and that “a good judge” should treat it accordingly.

Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Chuck Grassley asked Gorsuch about the matter Tuesday morning, noting that it is one of the most significant issues weighing on the minds of Americans.

“I think the case most people are thinking about right now and the case that every nominee gets asked about [is] Roe v. Wade. Can you tell me whether Roe was decided correctly?” he asked.

“Senator, … I would tell you that Roe versus Wade, decided in 1973, is the precedent of the United States Supreme Court. It has been reaffirmed,” Gorsuch, currently a judge with the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals, replied emphatically. “The reliance interest considerations are important there, and all of the other factors that go into analyzing precedent have to be considered.”

“It is a precedent of the United States Supreme Court. It was reaffirmed in Casey in 1992, and in several other cases,” he repeated. “So a good judge will consider it as precedent of the United States Supreme Court, worthy as treatment of precedent like any other.”

Grassley then asked Gorsuch to provide his views on the 1965 U.S. Supreme Court ruling in Griswold v. Connecticut, which concluded that a state ban on the use of contraceptives violated the “right to marital privacy.”

“Senator, it’s a precedent that’s now 50 years old,” Gorsuch stated. “Griswold involved the right of married couples to use contraceptive devices in the privacy of their own home. And it’s 50 years old. The reliance interests are obvious. It’s been repeatedly reaffirmed. All very important factors, again, in analyzing precedent.”

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When asked by Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., to expound on his views regarding precedent, he explained that “once a case is settled, that adds to the determinacy of the law.”

“What was once a hotly contested issue is no longer a hotly contested issue. We move forward,” Gorsuch said.

Feinstein then inquired if he considers Roe v. Wade to be “super-precedent,” meaning that it is so ingrained into the legal system that it would be significantly difficult to overturn.

“It has been reaffirmed 44 times. I can say that,” Gorsuch replied.

As previously reported, Gorsuch is an Episcopalian, and attends St. John’s Episcopal Church in Boulder, Colorado. St. John’s identifies itself as “inclusive” on its website and is led by female minister Susan Springer. Almost all of its deacons are also female.

In 2013, Springer expressed her support for same-sex “marriage.”

“I don’t think anybody in my faith tradition is out to destroy marriage between a man and a woman,” she told the Daily Camera. “I think we are out to find a way to offer the same blessing and the same sense of inclusion to same-sex couples. And I think we stand as prophetic witness, that same-sex couples ought to enjoy the same legal benefits, if you will, as heterosexual couples.”

However, in 2005, Gorsuch penned an article for the National Review, where he opined that issues such as same-sex nuptials and others should be battled in the ballot box rather than in the courts. He is also known as joining a ruling in favor of of the popular craft chain Hobby Lobby, which had sued the Obama administration over its abortion pill mandate.

“It is not for secular courts to rewrite the religious complaint of a faithful adherent, or to decide whether a religious teaching about complicity imposes ‘too much’ moral disapproval on those only ‘indirectly’ assisting wrongful conduct,” he wrote in the 2013 decision of Hobby Lobby v. Sebelius. “Whether an act of complicity is or isn’t ‘too attenuated’ from the underlying wrong is sometimes itself a matter of faith we must respect.”

Many Christians had cited the selection of pro-life and conservative Supreme Court justices as being the reason why they voted for Donald Trump as president. Some had stated that they desired a judge similar to the late Antonin Scalia.

Scalia, however, noted during his tenure that he opposed both the complete abolition of abortion, as well as requiring legalization. He said that the Constitution does not require a state to ban abortion as he believes the 14th Amendment only applies to those who have been born.

“I will strike down Roe v. Wade, but I will also strike down a law that is the opposite of Roe v. Wade,” Scalia outlined in a 2002 Pew Forum. “You know, both sides in that debate want the Supreme Court to decide the matter for them. One [side] wants no state to be able to prohibit abortion and the other one wants every state to have to prohibit abortion, and they’re both wrong.”

“And indeed, there are anti-abortion people who think that the Constitution requires a state to prohibit abortion. They say that the equal protection clause requires that you treat a helpless human being that’s still in the womb the way you treat other human beings. I think that’s wrong,” Scalia further explained in a 2008 “60 Minutes” interview. “I think when the Constitution says that persons are entitled to equal protection of the laws, I think it clearly means walking-around persons.”


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  • InTheChurch

    So did all the Trump supporters waste their vote on Trump in hopes of a conservative judge?

    • Ambulance Chaser

      Is there some other judge out there who would answer those questions differently?

      • Cake

        Yes lots of them. it’s just Trump had no intention of picking a conservative judge.

        • Ambulance Chaser

          Oh? Who?

          • antifasciste

            Judge Lotsofthem from the secret Appellate Division

        • antifasciste

          Judicial conservatism encompasses much more than Roe v Wade. Gorsuch could very well argue from a conservative perspective regarding business law, gun control, religious freedom and myriad other issues.

      • Tangent002

        Judge Roy Moore definitely would. He’s as activist as they come.

        • Ambulance Chaser

          Yeah I was waiting for someone to bring him up. I can’t wait for somebody to suggest with a straight face that a judge who was removed from office for judicial misconduct belongs on the Supreme Court.

          • Bob Johnson

            removed from office – twice.

      • InTheChurch

        I hope so. A person that has principles and morals needs to stand for those regardless of situation. As an attorney, do you turn down cases that go against your principles? or do you follow along with the stereotype

        • Ambulance Chaser

          So you want a judge to take a position on the law that is not legally correct?

          • InTheChurch

            has that stopped other judges?

    • Cake

      The Trump supporters will make whatever excuse to clear their conscience, instead of repenting they will believe every lie from Satan.

      • Pererin

        How about the Christians who voted for Hillary, should they not repent too? She is every bit as sinful and depraved as Trump.

        • Omnicopy

          More so!

      • InTheChurch

        Yup, that excuse will be “Anything is better than Hilary.”

        • Chris

          Why?

          • InTheChurch

            Hey Chris, just for information purposes. Are you familiar with our parties and the two losers that ran for President?
            I will assume you do, many people voted for the comb over, orange, TV monster so that Hilary would not win, a flaming socialist. So they pick the lesser of the two evils. But we still elected a immoral, socialist, rich liberal with a bullying problem. Did you see how he did not shake hands with the leader of Germany? classless, just classless

          • Chris

            “I will assume you do, many people voted for the comb over, orange, TV
            monster so that Hilary would not win, a flaming socialist.”

            I think you are thinking of Sanders. Clinton is, at best, center-right. I know a lot of Aericans assume that if a politician is a member of the Democrats then they are socialist. It just ain’t so. Look to Europe to give you an example of socialist policies.

            “So they pick
            the lesser of the two evils.”

            But you haven’t shown Clinton is evil.

            “But we still elected a immoral, socialist,
            rich liberal with a bullying problem.”

            You think Trump is a socialist? What gave you that idea?

            “Did you see how he did not shake
            hands with the leader of Germany? classless, just classless.”

            I agree. And petulant. He really has no idea how to play the political and diplomatic game and it shows.

          • InTheChurch

            Sanders is an independent that leans left. Hilary is a socialist. She, on many occasions, has reported that she believe the government should be in everyone’s life, limit personal responsibility and depend on government 100%. She want Cuba, Venezuela and North Korea. She wants to reverse our freedom of speech, right to bear arms and so forth. Sanders wants to be like the European countries. He brags about it. Hilary is only center right on Wall Street. Clinton is very evil if given the opportunity. Trump was a democrat and friends with the Clintons for decades. He went Republican when Obama won the white house. He is center right or extreme right on wall street and corporations but left on social issues. He is pushing a health bill that is Obamacare 2.0. We need to kill that bill not replace it with another socialist version. Trump is also a child with a lot of money and now with a lot of power. He needs to grow up and at least act mature. He needs to shake hands with his enemies and friends. he needs to play the game.
            Chris, can you give me a quick break down on right or left politics in your country? are we similar in parties and policies? please educate

          • Chris

            “Sanders is an independent that leans left.”

            According to Sanders HE is a socialist. Second don’t you have right wing independents in the states?

            “Hilary is a socialist. She, on many occasions, has reported that she believe the government should be in everyone’s life, limit personal responsibility and depend
            on government 100%.”

            Then she isn’t a socialist. A socialist holds that we should take care of those unable to take care of themselves and we should ‘keep an eye on the rich and powerful. “Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production; as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim to establish them.” [Source: Wikipedia].

            “She want Cuba, Venezuela and North Korea.”

            Cuba and North Korea are communist NOT socialist. There is supposed to be common ownership of the means of production but instead it usually results in state ownership.
            Please point out where Clinton has advocated state ownership of industries.

            “She wants to reverse our freedom of speech, right to bear arms and so forth.”

            Evidence? From her own mouth please not right wing blogs.

            “Sanders wants to be like the European countries. He brags about it.”

            Many of which are socialist.

            “Hilary is only center right on Wall Street.”

            I have no idea what you mean here.

            “He went Republican when Obama won the white house.
            He is center right or extreme right on wall street and corporations but
            left on social issues.”

            If he’s exrtreme right on some issues that would make him a Fascist on those issues. Is that what you’re claiming?

            “He is pushing a health bill that is Obamacare 2.0.”

            His health care would see a large number of the poor [I believe the figure is 20 million] go without. That’s NOT left leaning, that’s classism – right wing.

            “We need to kill that bill not replace it with another socialist version.”

            Actually Obamacare has been most effective in lowering the cost of healthcare for those least able to pay. Secondly it was someone as right wing as Bismark who introduced universal health care into Germany. He recognised that unless you provide those at the bottom with a minimum of care [economic and otherwise] it leads to the destablisation of the country.

            “Trump is also a child with a lot of money and now with a lot of power. He needs to grow up and at least act mature. He needs to shake hands with his enemies and friends. he needs to play the game.

            If you’ve been watching politics in your country the Republican party hasn’t played the game for years. What many republicans have used as propaganda points someone like Trump actually believes. That’s why he’s surrounded himself with extremists. For heaven sake you now have a neo-nazi who’s in charge of national security.

            Chris, can you give me a quick break down on right or left politics in your
            country? are we similar in parties and policies? please educate.

            We have two main parties, three minor parties and a number of independents.

            Major Parties:
            National Liberal Party:- The Liberal Party recently joined with the National Country Party. It used to have a number of views and was very much center. Since the 80’s it has drifted further and further to the right. Until one of the NLP Politicians went to England and addressed the Tories [a right wing party in the UK] about his views on refugees. They sat shocked and then replied “you are a fascist”.
            The Labor Party:- Originally a socialist party. It too has drifted further and further to the right. It is now centre-right.

            Minor Parties:

            The Greens:- The Greens are democratic socialists. The Scandinavian type. They are a minor party.
            One Nation:- This is a minor party and imploding at the moment. They are extreme right.
            Nick Xenophon Team:- They are what the NLP used to be – very firmly centre. They are a minor party.
            Jacqui Lambie Network: – Lambie seems a good soul to me and is prepared to stand up for the underdog. Her main failing seems to be her political ignorance. But she’ll learn.
            She’s centre-left.

            There are a number of other minor parties but they only have one member in our senate and it’s doubtful they’ll have even that at the next election.

          • InTheChurch

            That is interesting. We have the two big parties and we have minor ones also, like the Libertarian. We are seeing a shift to independent voters, no affiliation to any party, that is where I am. I don’t support any parties. I will vote for the person who will decrease my taxes, cut government spending, smaller government and give me the right to live how I please with my money. I can live with the social issues and the other minor stuff. But, taxes is big for me.
            Why are these parties of yours moving more and more to the right?

          • Chris

            In Australia we have a parliament and a senate. What Australians have done over ecent elections is vote for a bare minimum of one or the other major parties in parliament and then vote the opposite way in the senate.

            The result is that no party can be too extreme with their policies or they won’t pass the senate. You should adopt a similar practice with your pollies.

          • InTheChurch

            I love that. I wish we could. We see more change and progress when we have a president that is, just to use Trump, a Republican and a democrat leading congress. They work together, they come to agreements and they get things done. That was what we saw with Bill Clinton and W Bush. When we get all one party, Obama and Trump, it all messed up and no progress.
            What are the names of your parties?

  • Ben Welliver

    “Repeatedly affirmed.”

    Like slavery was.

    • antifasciste

      Until the 13th Amendment

  • Amos Moses

    We do not need to change the courts and its rulings ……. we need to confront the supporters of abortion with the truth of what they are doing …… that will change hearts and minds …… then the “law” will be of no effect ………..

    • Jenny Ondioline

      No one “supports” abortion. They support a woman’s right to be the one to make the decision.

      • Scotty Unchained

        Nope, you support the right of a human being to kill another.

        Don’t try to sugarcoat your lack of conscience.

        • Jenny Ondioline

          No I don’t, and don’t put words in my mouth. My conscience is just fine, that’s why I put the decision in the hands of the mother and not a bunch of religious strangers.

      • Amos Moses

        “They support a woman’s right to be the one to make the decision.”

        and they need to be confronted with what that decision means ………..

        • Jenny Ondioline

          They know what it means. And it’s not a pleasant decision for anyone who has to mak it. But the decision belongs to the mother alone.

          • Amos Moses

            no …. it does not ………… it belongs to God ….. and it is murder for the mother to do it …. the murder of innocence …… the murder of children …………

          • Worf

            Your beliefs have no bearing on other peoples choices.

          • Amos Moses

            yeah …. no …. their choices affect others choices ….. so FAIL ………..

          • Jenny Ondioline

            In the absence of God actually being here, the next obvious person to make the decision is the mother.

          • Amos Moses

            Except God IS here …… He is omnipresent ………. FAIL …………

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Then why doesn’t He speak up? FAIL yourself.

          • Amos Moses

            He has spoken ….. you were not listening ….. FAIL AGAIN …………

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Then only fail here is yourself. I don’t have imaginary voices talking to me and that’s a GOOD thing.

          • Amos Moses

            If you want to hear Gods voice, read the Bible. If you want to hear His voice audibly, READ IT OUT LOUD ………………………..

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Written by human beings.

          • Amos Moses

            nope ………

          • Amos Moses

            1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
            1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Yeah a human being wrote those words.

          • Amos Moses

            half truth is no truth ……… and that is a half truth ……..

          • Amos Moses

            you have never listened to Him ….. so how would you know …………

          • Jenny Ondioline

            When he starts to talk in a way that you can prove, you’re welcome to use that in a court of law.

          • Amos Moses

            you will be in His court soon enough ……. your answer will be a mouth agape with NOTHING coming out …………. sad for you ………….

          • Jenny Ondioline

            I think if that happened, he’d be on my side. What the heck, you go through life saying exactly the same thing.

          • Amos Moses

            nope …………

          • Amos Moses

            i have never claimed Jesus was on my side ……… so big FAIL …………..

          • Jenny Ondioline

            You’re joking right? You play the No True Scotsman card more than anyone else, so fail yourself.

          • Amos Moses

            First …. NTS has nothing to do with christianity …..
            Second ……. it also has nothing to do with whose side Christ is on …. mine, yours or anyones ……. Christ is on the side of Holiness ….. Christ is on the side of the Father and the Holy Spirit …….

            so anyones claim that Christ is on “their side” is baseless ………. but especially yours ……. you are “offsides” ……. and i have never claimed even once that He was on my side ……

            i am one His side ….. completely different idea ……. i have no side ….. His is the only side worth being on ………………

          • Amos Moses

            i did not choose Christ ….. that never happened ……. He chose me ….. do not ask me why ….. it was against my will …. i did not deserve to be picked ….. there was no reason for Him to pick me …… again ….. it was not my will ……….

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Then you need to learn to stop telling other Christians that they are false Christians.

          • Amos Moses

            nope …. all christians are given that responsibility …… many pretend to be christians ….. we are told to MARK THEM ……

            Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            You’re not in a position of knowing Christianity better than anyone else, there’s no reason they should listen to you.

          • Amos Moses

            “You’re not in a position of knowing Christianity better than anyone else”

            what is your evidence ….. ESPECIALLY when you ARE NOT ONE ….. and have no basis for such a conclusion ……….. you would have to BE a christian to know such a thing ….. and you are not ………….

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Because you’re a Christian and the person you argue with is also a Christian, but you’re Christians from different denominations. You each believe you’re 100% right in matters of the Bible, but what happens when you can’t agree on the meaning of a piece of scripture? You’re going to tell the other guy he’s wrong, aren’t you? You’re not going to swallow your pride and admit you might have it wrong, are you?

          • Amos Moses

            “Because you’re a Christian and the person you argue with is also a Christian”

            and where does it say:
            1. that christians do not argue …..
            2. that the other person is a christian when they do not follow the Christ of scripture ……
            3. where does it say that we are not to MARK those who are pretending …….
            4. part of what you are describing is CHURCH DISCIPLINE ….. and IS part of scripture ….

          • Jenny Ondioline

            I’m not saying any of those things. You are, and you do it when you argue and try to put-Christian someone else.

          • Amos Moses

            your mischaracterization …….. and you do not know what a christian is …. and you have no basis for that judgement …….

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Of course I know what a Christian is. The point is, you are trying to claim you know what a false Christian is. You base it on what you don’t like, which is classic No True Scotsman fallacy.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            What kind of world would it be if every Christian told every other Christian that they were false Christians? Is that not what you are doing?

          • Amos Moses

            “if every Christian told every other Christian”

            strawman argument ….. but this world allows all kinds of things …. like McDonalds being told they cannot make a burger and call it a Whopper ….. and Burger King being told they cannot make a burger and call it a Big Mac ……. and lying about what you are …. GETS YOU CALLED A LIAR ……… including so called “christians” who ARE NOT ………….. so this BUNK about No True Scotsman is just that …… BUNK …………..

          • Jenny Ondioline

            McDonald’s has no interest or desire to make Whoppers.
            Burger King has no interest or desire to make Big Macs.
            You don’t get to define what a Christian is, it’s just as simple as that. There are Christians who are ok with homosexuality and there is nothing in the Bible or anywhere else that says if you are ok with homosexuality that you’re not a Christian. So if you continue to say things like that, which are not supported by scripture or dictionary definitions, then yes, you’re guilty of No True Scotsman…lock stock and barrel. If you don’t want to be accused of the fallacy, don’t say silly and hateful things.

          • Amos Moses

            Burger King decides what a Whopper is and McDonalds decides what a Big Mac is and christians decide who is a christian ……..

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Ok, and how is that going to work when other Christians decide you aren’t one? See the problem now?

          • Amos Moses

            not a problem ….. i see no problem …… if you are not …. if you have no evidence of Christ in your life ….. you are not …. just as if a frog thought it was a cat ….. it is not …. there is no problem ……

          • Jenny Ondioline

            How about just letting everyone who claims to follow Christ call themselves a Christian, without someone going “yeah but” like you always seem to do?

          • Amos Moses

            because that is not what Christ taught ……… and that would make a person not a christian …….. there are false christians and false teachers and wolves in sheeps clothing ….. and we are to point out the wolves and false teachers ………. just like if McDonalds tries to sell a “Whopper” ….. of if Burger King tries to sell a “Big Mac” …….. DUH ……… false advertising makes one a liar …. and NOT a christian …..

          • Jenny Ondioline

            But you seem to think that you alone are the one who gets to decide who’s Christian and who’s not. You don’t.

          • Amos Moses

            nope ……. wrong again ….. what you are describing is yourself ……….

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Haha. Oh really, is that what I’m doing? Got an example? No of course you don’t.

          • Amos Moses

            “But you seem to think that you alone are the one who gets to decide who’s Christian and who’s not.”

            “How about just letting everyone who claims to follow Christ call themselves a Christian”

            this is your only purpose here ………

          • Jenny Ondioline

            If someone says they’re a Christian, that’s good enough for me to believe them. I don’t sit and cross examine every little belief they hold. If they follow the teachings of Christ which are silent on homosexuality, they’re Christian.

          • Amos Moses

            and that makes you NOT a christain ….. nor does it make them a christian …….. you have no basis to make that judgement ……

          • Jenny Ondioline

            No it doesn’t make me NOT a Christian. It has absolutely no bearing on whether or not I am a Christian. For the last time Amos, it’s not for you to judge. You’re not the boss.

          • Amos Moses

            it is for SCRIPTURE to give the standard ….. and for US AS CHRISTIANS to apply it …… so for the last time …. YES IT IS …………..

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Find ten Christians that can all agree and maybe we will have something to talk about. Until then, you are divided and cannot be taken seriously.

          • Amos Moses

            strawman …….. burn baby burn ….. there are many who do ……. false paradigm ………..

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Do you know what a strawman is? It’s when I misrepresent my opponent’s side. I don’t think you know that, because I didn’t do that.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Scripture is useless when no one can agree on its meaning, Amos.

          • Amos Moses

            the ones who cannot understand its meaning are not Gods problem … they are their own problem …….

          • Jenny Ondioline

            So what if you disagree with a Bible scholar? Which one of you is right when you disagree with each other about what scripture is saying?

          • Amos Moses

            Prv 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

          • Amos Moses

            24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
            24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            You don’t know Christianity better than anyone else enough to be making these kinds of accusations.

          • Amos Moses

            “You don’t know Christianity better than anyone else enough to be making these kinds of accusations.”

            that applies to YOU ….. not me …………..

          • Jenny Ondioline

            It’s been pointed out to you many times that you don’t know the bible BETTER than your fellow Christians from other denominations. You just know it differently.

          • Amos Moses

            or i know it better and i am in a position to give correction …………..

          • Jenny Ondioline

            But you don’t because how could you be?

    • RWH

      People have been saying that ever since 1973. All of the arguments have fallen on deaf ears because people are talking past each other. People who are pro choice are exactly that. They want women to have an array of choices for an unwanted pregnancy. Any type of scientific research will show that scores of ovulated eggs never attach and pass out of the system. Pro-life women are flushing their babies down the toilet without knowing it all the time. Neither side is in favor of abortion, but only one side seems to be doing anything constructive to help the woman out. The other side is just interested in laying on the guilt, a strategy which doesn’t work. That’s why they have to get obnoxious and in-your-face. I lived in Wichita during the “Summer of Mercy” back in the summer of 1991. If you can’t convince a woman through threats and scare tactics, physically assault her by blocking her path or shoving unwanted literature in her face, or calling her filthy names. That’s why so many states have instituted bubble zones as a way of protecting women against these vultures.

    • Ambulance Chaser

      Honestly, we could probably end abortion in America in ten years if we really wanted to. If we made birth control available to every teen, and taught them intensively how to use it, we’d never have another abortion.

      • Amos Moses

        experience says otherwise …….

        • Croquet_Player

          Actually, no.

          “Over the past six years, Colorado has conducted one of
          the largest experiments with long-acting birth control. If teenagers and poor women were offered free intrauterine devices and implants that prevent pregnancy for years, state officials asked, would those women choose them?

          They did in a big way, and the results were startling. The birthrate among teenagers across the state plunged by 40 percent from 2009 to 2013, while their rate of abortions fell by 42 percent, according to the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment. There was a similar decline in births for another group particularly vulnerable to unplanned pregnancies: unmarried women under 25 who have not finished high school.” (See: Snopes. Sorry I can’t link to it, but this site does not permit links.)

          If you’re against abortion, you should be in favor of free, accessible birth control for all.

          • Amos Moses

            “Snopes.”

            fake news and fake reporting of the news ………… discredited with me over 15 years ago ….. they have not improved one iota ……… fail ……

          • Croquet_Player

            “Discredited” with you. Well, that explains it. Fine, you don’t like Snopes? Ignore Snopes. Just look it up, anywhere and everywhere. The Colorado model has proven that free birth control causes abortion rates to drop, by huge numbers. I beg you, where is your data that show otherwise? Produce your numbers. I swear if you can offer something reputable I will doff my hat. Free birth control means less abortions. By far.

          • Amos Moses

            the issue is not Snopes …… the issue is not abortion …… the issue is not birth control ……

            the issue is salvation ………………

          • Ambulance Chaser

            If you want to refute the findings, go ahead. But insulting the source is NOT doing that.

          • Amos Moses

            the source is insulting …… it is left leaning ….. it is left politics supporting ……. and it is pushing an agenda and not the truth ….. truth is a foreign concept to them …………

          • Ambulance Chaser

            So you don’t have an argument, then. Got it.

          • This style 10/6

            Amos is impregnable to any new idea.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            I’m not even asking for a new idea. I’m asking him to defend his old one, and he won’t even do that.

          • This style 10/6

            It’s all about…………….salvation……………..you……………know!

          • Amos Moses

            no … arguing “statistics” is a LOSER argument ….. you do not accept mine … i will not accept yours ….. it is a waste of time ….. the sources quoted as “expert” are clearly NOT …. it is a FOOLS errand ….. i am not a fool ……….

          • Ambulance Chaser

            I don’t know what any of that means. I just know that arguing “that source is biased” is not arguing at all. Being “biased” does not automatically mean a source is wrong. Being unbiased does not automatically mean a source is right. It’s nothing. It’s a pointless non-argument that doesn’t establish anything.

            By your logic, every time I step into a courtroom, I’m automatically wrong because my client pays me to advance an argument that supports his case, and my opponent is also wrong for the same reason.

          • Amos Moses

            “I don’t know what any of that means. I just know that arguing “that source is biased” is not arguing at all.”

            if the source is biased …. it is useless ….. and you are right …. there is no point in arguing sources ….. has nothing to do with the truth ….. you cannot argue truth … YOU do not have any truth ………….

          • Ambulance Chaser

            No, it’s not useless. I keep telling you that. Every source is biased. You’re biased. Are you “useless?” Is everything you say wrong?

          • Amos Moses

            figures do not lie …. liars figure …… i am not here to argue numbers ….. i am here to speak the truth ….. you do not accept the truth ……. you have no truth …………

          • Ambulance Chaser

            What numbers are you talking about? It was a simple yes or no question.

          • Amos Moses

            its not about numbers …. it is about truth … you have none ………

        • Croquet_Player

          And one more thing. I am against abortion, but probably not for the same reasons you are. Abortion is a last-resort surgery. I would far rather have men and women who have sex have access to reliable, safe birth control. No birth control is 100% effective. But birth control is FAR more effective than using nothing. Human beings like to have sex. As well they should, it’s perfectly normal and healthy. You are here, and so am I, because every one of our ancestors had sex. Likely some of the mothers died in the process, as so often happened, but here we are anyway. The number one cause of death for women before 1900 was death from childbirth. Can we please, PLEASE, look at the statistics, and understand birth control will help families?

          • Amos Moses

            ” Human beings like to have sex.”

            human beings are not animals ……. just because we “like” something does not mean we should do it with no thought of the consequences ……. birth control does not help families …… it prevents them ……… what you want is a consequence free environment …… and it is a myth and an illusion ………

          • Worf

            “human beings are not animals”

            As a matter of fact, we are:

            Kingdom: Animalia
            Phylum: Chordata
            Class: Mammalia
            Order: Primates
            Suborder: Haplorhini
            Family: Hominidae
            Genus: Homo
            Species: H. sapiens

          • Amos Moses

            yeah …. again ….. YOU may be an animal …… humans beings are not …………….. FAIL ……….. you are using pseudo-science ….. BIG FAIL …..

          • Worf

            In my absence I forgot you are a troll and proceeded to feed you. My bad.

          • Amos Moses

            you must be looking in the mirror … again ….. on this forum you are the troll …… you came here looking for love in all the wrong places ……

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Okay, well why don’t you provide us with a more accurate taxonomy then?

          • Amos Moses

            i thought i just did …..

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Where?

          • Vince

            You: homo

          • Worf

            Such a clever and well thought out reply. Hope you didn’t hurt yourself thinking it up.

          • Croquet_Player

            Well, human beings are animals. We are all primates. (I’m sure you’ll disagree on that point, but it’s simply a fact. Please don’t take it up with me, take it up with every biology department at every university on the planet.) And of course we shouldn’t do things without thinking of the consequences. Because we have reason. The suggestion that I am in favor of consequence-free outcomes is simply false. In fact, as you can see from the data, access to birth control causes abortions to drop, by staggering amounts. Anyone who is against abortion should be in favor of free birth control. The numbers show it. And, much worse, where are abortions most prevalent? In red states, which have little to no proper education on the matter, and even less access to healthcare. One more thing…I am highly in favor of families. I’m a member of one myself, and proud of it. But I’m not in favor of sticking women (and their partners) into some kind of barnyard cycle of forced reproduction.

          • Amos Moses

            “Well, human beings are animals. We are all primates. (I’m sure you’ll disagree on that point, but it’s simply a fact.”

            well you brought it up with ME …………. and i do disagree …… human beings are not animals ….. we may share numerous similarities with animals …… but the difference has not one thing to do with biology …… it has to do with the mind ………..

          • Croquet_Player

            As I already pointed out…

          • Amos Moses

            “But I’m not in favor of sticking women (and their partners) into some kind of barnyard cycle of forced reproduction.”

            false point …. and a lie …………

            ” In red states, which have little to no proper education on the matter, and even less access to healthcare.”

            false point …. not the states job to govern that …..

            “The suggestion that I am in favor of consequence-free outcomes is simply false. In fact, as you can see from the data, access to birth control causes abortions to drop, by staggering amounts.”

            another false point ….. the issue is salvation …..

            BIG FAIL …………

          • Croquet_Player

            Ignore facts all you like. Easy access to free or very inexpensive birth control reduces abortions. This is not a matter of opinion, the data clearly show it. You have offered no data in support of your statements, just pronouncements about “sin”.

          • Amos Moses

            again …. this is a christian forum about topics of meaning to christians ……. i do not have to ignore any facts …. they are not the issue …. SALVATION is the issue ……. and it is not achieved by the murder of children nor the indiscriminate bedding of each other ………

            “This is not a matter of opinion, the data clearly show it. You have offered no data in support of your statements, just pronouncements about “sin”.”

            it is clear that all you have are YOUR pronouncements of what the facts state ….. and it is ALL just YOUR opinion ……………

          • Croquet_Player

            No, facts are not a matter of opinion.

          • Amos Moses

            right …… but what THE FACTS SAY …… IS a matter of OPINION ……… the facts are interpreted by the BIAS of the VIEWER of the facts …… your view is devoid of God ….. and therefore ….. in ERROR ………..

          • Croquet_Player

            More baseless pronouncements.

          • Amos Moses

            no … that would be your idea of what the “facts” are saying …… and you are still in error …..

          • Croquet_Player

            So you say.

          • Amos Moses

            “One more thing…I am highly in favor of families. I’m a member of one myself, and proud of it.”

            question is …. whose family …………

          • Tangent002

            Then be specific.What about human sexuality bothers you?

          • Amos Moses

            interloper ……….

          • This style 10/6

            Add early, frank sex ed and abortion rates decline even further.

      • Croquet_Player

        Well, no, because unfortunately no birth control is 100% effective. However safe, free, birth control, available to all, would massively reduce abortions. When I host a party, I always put out a little basket of condoms in the bathroom, with a sign “Free! Please take some!” And there are always be some anonymous takers. Who knows how many STDs or unwanted pregnancies are averted? Personally, I feel like condoms should be available in every bathroom, just like toilet paper, hot water, and soap. It’s simply a public health issue. (To say nothing of how ridiculously cheap condoms are compared to treating STDs or unplanned pregnancies.)

        • This style 10/6

          Condom dispensers in every high school. I am serious here.

      • Omnicopy

        We could end abortion if we turned to God and lived holy lives not having sex before marriage and not permitting our kids to have sex before marriage. It’s called parenting!

        • Ambulance Chaser

          Okay, how many times has that approach ever worked? When and where?

          • Omnicopy

            Yeah, well, shoot they just want the aborted babies to eat them! So just leave things as status quo! Listen any other way than this and we have a whole lot of problems!!!

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Okay, since you’re not going to take this seriously, never mind.

        • wit brown

          But ” parenting ” won’t work if the parents ( especially the mother ) isn’t at home to raise and nurture a godly seed.
          if the baby is send to the daycare industry, what difference does that make? It will be indoctrinated at an early age when the mother should be the only one influencing the baby in the ways of God at an early age.

          • Omnicopy

            Mother or father needs to stay at home and homeschool, hopefully the mother

          • wit brown

            I was hoping you won’t say the father…this is typical of the culture.
            But it is antithetical to the Scriptures.

          • Omnicopy

            I have one I homeschooled their entire life, never got any babysitters, no pre-school, did it all myself and all I can say it is truly amazing how they turn out!

          • Chris

            I commend you. However if the mother is single and poor that isn’t an option. The choice then is between staying at home to raise her child or eating.

          • Omnicopy

            She could maybe find another God fearing mother to do it. We aren’t organized at all, so we can’t help one another in these ways. I’ve tried to organize something for 35 years, couldn’t get it accomplished. Wished I could have, would have been so neat! People just wouldn’t see the truth. God help us now! We’re on our own!

          • wit brown

            I wish you God’s Blessings in your endeavor.

          • Chris

            “She could maybe find another God fearing mother to do it.”

            You’re assuming that this “God Fearing’ mother would be interested in helping to raise another child. That’s a pretty big assumption, surely.

          • Omnicopy

            I homeschooled another children. I welcomed the opportunity cause it provided companionship for my child. So you never know!

          • Chris

            True. No one knows either way until they try.

          • wit brown

            There are always a number of what ” ifs” …the idea is to accept your responsibility as a mother to nurture your babies.
            They are many others who can afford to make the sacrifice but chose not to.
            Yes we are a broken people living in sin, but we ( I ) want to point us to the ideal. Or else, we will always make exceptions the rule and we will be presenting tailor made messages to conform to social and cultural norms.

          • Omnicopy

            I’m convinced a lot of people after they have kids don’t really want them. A lot of parents are sociopaths and are such empty souls they will sell their kids for money. This isn’t happening all by chance. We live in a truly sick end time world.

          • wit brown

            You are right. But to read your story gives me hope that God still have a remnant of people who will endeavor to di the right way.
            I listen to John Haggee building a Sanctuary for young women who don’t want to abort their babies to find a place of Love , care and support.
            That is an excellent response to this abortion issue. I wish more Churches with their $Billions would do more.
            It is NOT enough to say, don’t abort , we must offer an alternative.
            May God Bless his labor in that field.

          • Omnicopy

            Good! Glad I was encouraging! My story started about 34 years ago when I was shown my church was totally demon possessed. So I’ve been looking for that true remnant ever since that day. It’s been a long search. I call it the True Church. We are out here! We just haven’t been too successful getting together yet. Maybe we will someday.

          • Chris

            “There are always a number of what ” ifs” …the idea is to accept your responsibility as a mother to nurture your babies.”

            So choose not to eat? How is that nurturing?

            “They are many others who can afford to make the sacrifice but chose not to.”

            True but we are not speaking of someone who is making a choice. A poor single mother operates from necessity.

            “Yes
            we are a broken people living in sin, but we ( I ) want to point us to
            the ideal.”

            So you’ll get people who look down on those who don’t live out the ideal? Not good.

            “Or else, we will always make exceptions the rule and we will
            be presenting tailor made messages to conform to social and cultural
            norms.”

            So intolerance should be the new cultural norm?

          • wit brown

            “So choose not to eat? How is that nurturing?” Your words, not mines. I never said that or imply it.
            “So you’ll get people who look down on those who don’t live out the ideal? Not good.” You have a proclivity to putting words in my mouth or posts. It is a good idea to copy and paste my words instead of applying your own reasoning and superimposed it on me.
            I chose to ignore your ” what if” scenarios because there are a host of different dynamics which requires personal consultation and help.
            I did mention to Omnicopy a means for the Church to help those same ” poor women” you spoke about. Read my comments in context and follow the thread.
            “So intolerance should be the new cultural norm? The ” Message ” is the good news of the Gospel. One that we are to preach in season and out of season, one that does not conform to this Kosmos , but that does convict and convince people of sin and a need to change from living a life of sin to one that honors God. Is this being ” intolerant” ? then YES !!…
            However, the good news of the Gospel does seek to help the poor and the hurting and does provide shelter and support too the lease among us.
            I did mention to “Omnicopy ” a great example of John Hagee’s Sanctuary for Pregnant women who don’t want to abort their babies. Help is available. That’s the Gospel at work…

          • Chris

            After quoting me “So choose not to eat? How is that nurturing?” You added “Your words, not mines. I never said that or imply it.”

            I agree you never said it and I’m sorry if I gave the impression that you had. You did imply it however. If a mother must choose between feeding her child or personally looking after it then if you say she should choose the second then that means she must abandon the first.

            You quote me as saying “So
            you’ll get people who look down on those who don’t live out the ideal?
            Not good.”

            And add “You have a proclivity to putting words in my mouth or posts.”

            I’m not implying that you said any such thing. Merely that this would be the result of what you suggest. The women who failed to live up to your standard or those who chose not too would be judged. This has happened several times in history.

            You then wrote “I chose to ignore your ”
            what if” scenarios because there are a host of different dynamics which
            requires personal consultation and help.”

            I agree. Please list the dynamics which would alter the choice of a poor single mother.

            You wrote “I did mention to Omnicopy a
            means for the Church to help those same ” poor women” you spoke about.”

            Indeed. Do you understand the effect on those who have to rely on charity? How about the effect on those who give it? I can give you many instances of people who look down on those they are helping. I’m sure you can do the same.

            You then wrote “The ” Message ” is the good news
            of the Gospel.”

            And if the poor single mother has no interest in Jesus?

            You then wrote “However,
            the good news of the Gospel does seek to help the poor and the hurting
            and does provide shelter and support to the lease among us.”

            Once again check the effect of continuous reliance on charity on those who are forced to take it and those who provide it.

          • wit brown

            Chris are you a Christian?

          • Chris

            No. I’m a Zoroastrian.

          • wit brown

            What is that?…never heard of it….

          • Chris

            Zoroastrianism is a very old faith. It originated in Persia, scholars estimate, around 1000 BCE. It operates on three principles – good thoughts, good words, good deeds. How do we define good? Easy – loving kindness and the search for truth. It’s up to each Zoroastrian to determine how to apply that in their individual circumstances.

            There are a few Zoroastrians mentioned in the bible. Cyrus was a Zoroastrian as were the Magi who visited Jesus when he was an infant. Remember the three wise men?

          • wit brown

            ” Good” is way too subjective to be taken serious.
            However, I am reminded of Jesus saying:
            quote,”And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God”…
            [Luke 18:19].
            When you come to the understanding that our standard for living must he higher than our-self and self righteousness, then we can begin to know and appreciate what ” goodness ” is.
            Isaiah 64:6 say,” ….and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags”
            Until then, you and I and ALL others are good, and how dear you and I say otherwise.?
            Thanks for the info. about your religion. But I am a sinner saved only by the grace of Jesus Christ, trying to be Good as he help me to be good. Apart from Him, I am nothing. My ” goodness” and my” righteousness” is nothing.
            That’s one reason, I promote the Bible and what it says and not me or my intellect or a cultural and social perspective on issues of morality.

            Thanks for conversing…Blessings !

          • Chris

            For the word ‘good’ being subjective you sure do seem to use it a lot. But since I defined Good while you did not I’ll take it you were referring to YOUR use of the word.

          • Chris

            As to your bible quote…I was a Christian. Born again, the whole nine yards. It was my seeking after truth that led me away from Christianity.

          • wit brown

            Well, may God Bless you. It was a sacrifice you made , and I am happy that you did make that Choice. And now that you have nurtured those seeds, I am pretty sure they will rise up and call you Blessed.

      • wit brown

        That’s call being delusional. You think women on the pill don’t get pregnant by mistake? do you think the pill always work? do you know that some pills are design to fail so that young girls can get pregnant so they can go pay the abortion clinic? it’s a business. so don’t be so cocky with your assertion…
        Abortion is SIN. You came and met Sin and you will die and leave sin on earth. Until Jesus comes, women of all stripe will be aborting their babies, one way or another.
        BTW, do you know that a man can abort a baby as well? It was done before and God punish that man.

        • Chris

          “Abortion is SIN”

          Yet the religious right couldn’t have cared less about it until they lost the battle for segregation. After they’d lost that battle they suddenly decided that abortion was obviously a sin.

          You think that isn’t a business decision? Maybe you shouldn’t be so cocky with your assertions. I read that last phrase somewhere.

          • wit brown

            ” After they’d lost that battle they suddenly decided that abortion was obviously a sin.” <<< I agree with what you are trying to say.
            However, the " religious right " does not determine what is a sin nor if abortion is a sin or not. The Bible does– not Evangelicals.

          • Chris

            But the bible doesn’t mention abortion except in one instance. If a husband suspects that his wife has been unfaithful the bible provides a ritual which was supposed to bring on an abortion if his suspicions were correct.

        • This style 10/6

          The idea that some abortion pills are designed to fail so clinics can make money is crazy talk.

          • wit brown

            Really ? I can present to you documentaries on teenage pregnancies and abortion clinics that strategically set up shop next to schools and universities and dispense time sensitive birth control pills that ONLY works on schedule.
            I was a documentary ” the Monstrous Regiment of women” in Phyllis Schlafly, Jennie Chancey and others spoke about the abortion culture .

          • This style 10/6

            The name Schlaffly says it all. Those documentaries are lies.

            I don’t want to get into a long discussion. Where I live there are no laws concerning abortion but we have a lower rate than the US because we have better sex ed.

          • wit brown

            got you…

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Sorry, the rules apply to us too. Merely being a Schlafly doesn’t automatically make you wrong. We have to be subject to the same standards I’m trying to hold Amos to. If you think there’s a credibility issue with Schlafly’s documentary, you have to dig in and find it.

            (Although I would concede that simply mentioning that there’s a documentary somewhere that comes to X conclusion isn’t making any kind of case either.)

          • This style 10/6

            True, but I’ll pass on the documentaries.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            I don’t blame you. You’d have to pay me.

          • wit brown

            The documentary isn’t a ” schlafly’s documentary” i did give the name of the documentary and did say who were part of the interviews. Phyllis is just one of the persons being interviewed.

            The documentary is correct , birth control pills are time sensitive, some were made on purpose to fail and were distributed to girls as part of the Safe Sex Ed. and abortion clinics knew only a matter of time before the girl came calling to get an abortion.

            These pills AREN”T 100% safe. Many in the abortion industry knows that teenage girls aren’t responsible adults to take the pill as scheduled , but they were and are encouraged to be sexually active.
            foxnews./health/2016/02/05/7-things-that-can-make-birth-control-pills-fail.html

            quote,”“Why do women who have sex keep getting pregnant, even when they use birth control?” he asks. “Three reasons: first, sex is designed to make babies (duh) and no matter how hard we try to avoid it – sex keeps making babies. Second, because the pill and barrier methods have a statistically-significant failure rate, over time, most women who habitually use birth control can expect at some point it will fail them and they will get pregnant. Third and finally, people don’t always use birth control correctly.” end quote.
            lifenews./2011/01/11/report-shows-contraception-failure-54-used-before-abortion/

          • wit brown

            “Those documentaries are lies.” But you haven’t heard it. That’s quite a judgmental attitude. Secondly, people have an opinion, it doesn’t means they are Lying.
            View the documentary first the cast a judgement.
            visit [ Colin Gunn productions / monstrous]

        • Ellabulldog

          abortion is a medical procedure. don’t have one if you don’t want one.

          no such thing as sin or god fyi, and no Jesus is coming
          that is all fable

          • antifasciste

            Humans created God to help them feel good about themselves, and created sin to make others feel badly.

          • wit brown

            Well, I respect to your delusion, it’s your choice to believe as you do. I chose to believe that there is a God that Chose to create and who Chose to send His Son to walk on this earth. I chose to believe that SIN is disobedience to His Written Word.
            Call it what you will, I call it Elohim.

    • antifasciste

      Separation of Powers works both ways amongst all three branches. If the law strikes you as immoral, change the law. Read Montesquieu or de Tocqueville.

      • Amos Moses

        dont need to change the law …. as i just stated ………

        • antifasciste

          You seem quite optimistic about this culture wide epiph

          • Amos Moses

            i am optomistic as to the way it will go ….. your side will have its full reign in force for a short season ….. it will end disastrously ….. many of you will continue to deny the disaster …… your penalties will be very high …. unpayable ….

          • antifasciste

            Wow, ominous. All these years, many people have been telling me my debt has been paid by Jesus.

          • Amos Moses

            you do not seem to be a christian ….. so not of the elect …… so i would doubt that …… i hold to limited atonement …….. but things could change for you ………..and i was not speaking of any specificity of your outcome ….. just the outcome of all this …………

          • antifasciste

            Well, I guess I am fortunate that it is not possible for me to care less about your judgement of what is in my heart and how I live my life.

  • Omnicopy

    They abort our babies and rape our children!

    • wit brown

      Who did that? women?

    • Chris

      Presumably not at the same time ’cause that would be difficult. 🙂

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    People should stop killing the human babies in wombs. It is murder.

  • Tangent002

    In my opinion, Christian News Network has one of the best comment boards. Small, informed, well-balanced, and uncensored.

  • wit brown

    So what will Evangelicals do if Trump is not able to reverse Roe v Wade via Gorsuch?
    I have said many times the problem is Christians are relying on man made politics to solve an issue of the heart. Even if Roe v Wade is over turned, it does not stop a woman ( be she a Liberal, a Conservative , Christian or not) from having an abortion if she chose to. She did it before Roe v Wade and after Roe v Wade she will if she wants to.
    The problem isn’t laws or politics, it’s a conviction of the heart to do what’s right , even when NO one is looking.
    And therein lies the problem with the Church. It has lost it’s ability to impact a nation and a culture with the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Power of the Holy Ghost to convince, convict and cause people ( in this case women) to chose righteousness over ” feelings” pride and a false sense of equality, which is a fallacy.
    Instead the Church is compromised, is Feminized and is more into cultural conformity and greed and political allegiance, elevating and equating party politics to righteousness, as if it is of God.
    Hence, God is not on our side, for our trust is in the arm of flesh and politics. But we have been FAILING. Our Politics is failing us, and will fail. Sorry, but Trump is NOT the ONE.

    Is it not time to detoxify our minds from Politics and reclaim Faith and trust in the God of the Bible and the Power of the Preached Word?
    Who is to know, peradventure God will intervene on our behalf and solve these cultural mess, one family at a time, so the women will Chose to get married and bring forth their babies and will chose to be at home raising a godly seed. But would She?

    • Chris

      I’d also add that if the church wants to have an influence it has to lead by example. For instance look at the churches that have defended pastors who have raped women in their congregation. Why should any society pay attention to a group when they talk about certain teachings when the church doesn’t practice what they preach.

      • wit brown

        I think you are beginning to see what I see…

  • Jenny Ondioline

    If the abortionist is what the woman wants. A bunch of religious strangers clearly are NOT.