U.S. Supreme Court Nominee Neil Gorsuch: Same-Sex ‘Marriage’ Decision ‘Absolutely Settled Law’

WASHINGTON (Yahoo News) Judge Neil Gorsuch referred to the Supreme Court’s recent same-sex “marriage” decision as “settled law” on Tuesday, using a stronger phrase than he has for other legal precedents.

Sen. Al Franken, D-Minn., asked Gorsuch to explain how his views on “marriage equality” have changed since 2004, when the George W. Bush administration was pushing for ballot initiatives that banned the practice in states.

Gorsuch replied that sharing his “personal views” would send a misleading signal to the American people that he might be inclined to rule one way or another on future cases that come up on the subject.

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  • meamsane

    This seems inconsistent with an “Originalist” and “Textualist”? What SSM law is he refering to? But then again, what is he going to say, “No, those black-robed bozo’s got it wrong”!!

  • james blue

    SCOTUS jurists should view the constitution as a document to protect freedom and liberty, not a document to justify limiting it.

  • Reason2012

    No, it’s not settled any more than it was settled when the SCOTUS lied and said that “obamacare was a tax” when the democrats said it was a fine. SCOTUS doesn’t make law and they proved they’ll lie to make their rulings in their favor.

    Meanwhile adults continue to permanently turn away from homosexuality, even after decades of believing the lie they were “born that way”, proving it’s not genetic, but the product of indoctrination, confusion, mental instability and/or abuse.

    Homosexual behavior is most literally pointed out as a sin, and God has not changed on that regard. But if a person has those inclinations but does not act upon them, does not dwell in lust upon others, but is instead struggling against them to avoid them, then it’s not a sin. It’s just like sinful inclinations of any kind: it’s acting upon it when it becomes a sin.

    And this is what God says about sin and specifically the behavior of homosexuality:

    Romans 1:26-27 ”For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: (27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their_lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.”

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 ”Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [men who willingly take on the part of a “woman” with another man], nor abusers of themselves with mankind [s odomites], (10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

    1 Timothy 1:9-10 ”Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, (10) For_whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind [s odomites], for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”

    Jude 1:7 ”Even as_Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

    Luke 17:29 ”[Jesus said] But the same day that Lot went out of_Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.”

    Matthew 19:4-6 ”And he [Jesus] answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, (5) And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? (6) Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.”

    Jesus made it quite clear God made us male and female so that a man will leave his father and mother (not two fathers, not three mothers and so on) and cleave onto his wife (not his husband and so on).

    The Word of God rebukes us all – even if we all try to say we don’t believe the Bible, the very Word of God will be our judge when we face Him. And God is a righteous judge and will judge us all – not turn a blind eye to our sin. Do not be deceived by the world: it’s God we will have to convince that His word was a lie, not men. What happened in Noah’s day when the entire world rejected God? Did God spare them because there were so many? No – they all perished except for Noah and his family!

    Proverbs 9:10 ”The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.”

    God spared not His chosen people – we are kidding ourselves if we think He will spare the United States of America if we choose to blatantly turn away from Him.

    Jeremiah 12:17 ”But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, saith the LORD.”

    Luke 17:28-30 “So also as it was in the days of Lot: they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; (29) but the day Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from the heaven and destroyed them all. (30) Even so it shall be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.”

    Romans 1:18-32 “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [suppress] the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

    For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

    For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, m urder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”

    The entire Bible points out men having_sex with men is an abomination. Likewise woman having_sex with women. It’s not just Paul that pointed it out.

    Genesis 19:4-13 “But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of S odom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them [men wanting to have_sex with men].

    And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing [he offers his daughters to be_raped to keep them from having_sex with another man – shows_rape is not the issue but male on male_sex]; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

    And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door. But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door. And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

    And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place: For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.”

    These two messengers were sent to destroy that place before the event where they tried to_rape these messengers.

    Leviticus 18:22 “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.”

    Leviticus 20:13 “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination …”

    Even cross-dressing is an abomination:

    Deuteronomy 22:5 “The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.”

    Deuteronomy 23:17 “There shall be no_whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a s odomite of the sons of Israel.”

    1 Kings 22:46 “And the remnant of the s odomites, which remained in the days of his father Asa, he took out of the land.”

    1 Kings 15:11-12 “And Asa did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, as did David his father. And he took away the s odomites out of the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made.”

    2 Kings 23:7 “And he brake down the houses of the s odomites, that were by the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the grove.”

    Ezekiel 16:49-50 “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister S odom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.”

    And the “pride” parades about homosexuality are more of the same.

    Matthew 19:4-5 “And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?”

    Not father and father. Not mother and mother. Not his husband.

    And only two people of opposite gender can become “one flesh”.

    Live forever, people – not temporarily only to be cast out for living for the things of this world.

    May God/Jesus Christ be glorified!

    • RWH

      The Supreme Court is not interested in ruling on religious doctrine. What the Supreme Court did was to extend the same right to gay people as it did to the straights: one can marry the person that s/he loves. The decision expanded a liberty rather than limiting it. The decision did not impact any other group, nor can any other group show that this decision harmed it. It may have harmed people’s sensitivities, but we don’t create laws that oppress minorities because they happen to be unpopular with a segment of the population. Years ago, a black family moved next door to my aunt. She went ballistic because she thought that both she and the neighborhood was being violated. As time went by, she became good friends with these people because she had to realize that her fears were baseless and that her perceptions and stereotyping was all wrong.

      • Reason2012

        Every single person already had the same right: marry one person of opposite s ex. What the supreme court did was redefine religious institution of marriage to create their own state religion and now everyone else is subject to adhering to this new state religion regardless of their own religious beliefs on marriage and must bow down to calling two men a marriage.

        Just like they lied and claim obamacare was a tax when the democrats said it was a fine – lied so they could call THAT constitutional as well. More lies to pass laws establishing their own state religion.

        • RWH

          As a little bit of history, the Puritans and their Calvinist descendants believed that marriage was a function of the state and not one of the church. It was only after the Civil War that these people noticed the beautiful wedding ceremonies performed in Catholic, Episcopal, and Lutheran churches, which had become more plentiful by this time. They wanted the same thing. About this time, these groups also discovered the church organ, choir robes, and candles. Carnegie, the big industrial conglomerate, was famous for building organs for churches as a charitable contribution. A lot of churches still have these pipe organs.

          If you are going to support the idea of marriage as a religious institution, you’re going to have to appeal to the Catholic Church and the Episcopal Church, both of whom recognize matrimony as one of the sacraments of the church (the Episcopal Church divides them into major [Biblical] and minor sacraments [Holy Tradition]. In the Catholic Church, as well as the Orthodox, those that didn’t partake of the sacrament of marriage were expected to take monastic orders, which in itself was a type of sacrament.

          If your church recognizes a civil marriage conducted by a judge (the Orthodox, Episcopal, and Orthodox churches do not), you have no grounds to claim that marriage is strictly a religious rite.

          Again, the idea of marriage for love (as opposed to arranged marriages) came from the medieval idea of love. As such two people who love each other have the right to get married. If that person is of the same sex, so be it. Otherwise, you’re forcing people to marry for convenience to people whom they don’t love.

          As such, you don’t need to bow down to anything. Women traditionally wear the wedding ring, but conservative Wesleyan women didn’t wear rings. Many married men do not wear rings. So, as you are walking down the street, you will have no idea who is single and who has been “taken.” To me, this lame excuse about bowing down to anything is a very convenient justification to hate other people, which is hardly a Christian virtue.

          • Reason2012

            Marriage was created by God and existed before any government did. Our government does not have the right to REDEFINE religious institutions, like marriage, then establish this new version of religion on everyone else by force of law, which is how they force everyone else to “bow down to it”: If you have no problem serving those into homosexuality, but instead refuse to support a same gender marriage no matter WHO asks you to, that is a violation of everyone else’s religious rights in the name of this new State Religion.

          • Tangent002

            Not everyone believes in God, much less your version of Him.

            Same-sex marriage harms you in no way.

          • RWH

            Well, if you follow that line of thinking, the logical conclusion is the repudiation of the entire concept of democracy. Israel had a state church throughout the Old Testament. There was a way of dealing with religious dissent, and it is striking that King Solomon struck down the pagan shrines. The Temple was build for corporate worship, and Christ became a victim of this people=one faith model. That is why the concept of monarchy and state church go hand in hand. You really can’t have one without the other. The big historical question was who was on top. The Catholic Church believed that the Pope was over kings. In the Eastern Roman Empire, the emperor was over the church and appointed the patriarch. This is why religion collapsed so rapidly after World War I when most of the monarchies collapsed. In Russia, for example, when the Tzar abdicated in favor of the Provisional Government headed by Kerensky, church attendance among the peasantry dropped down to zero.

            Again, your logic does not follow that of a democracy. It does not matter what you or I support. Same-sex people have the right to marry, and their right does not depend on your approval. You can disapprove all you want, but if you make an attempt to physically interfere, take a toothbrush with you when you are arrested, for you will be put away for a long, long time.

          • tedlickb

            Your god is not needed for any marriage. Keep your “holy matrimony” and enjoy it.

        • tedlickb

          And we still do. You too can marry someone of teh same sex.

          Neat, huh?

          • 0pus

            Nah, they’re infected with AIDS. Dirty, diseased creatures.

          • tedlickb

            The overwhelming majority have no such disease.

            I know you don’t want to believe it… and I’m glad gay marriage makes you angry.

          • 0pus

            You’ll die of AIDS, old and alone. Dirty vulgar slimeball, the scum of the universe, preying on children.

    • jkarov

      America BY DESIGN is not a theocracy. Religious beliefs, doctrines, and precepts are not law, only the US Constitution is binding, and any laws deemed Constitutional.

      We are a secular Republic where freedom of ALL religions are not only tolerated, they are mandated.

      Athiests, Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists have the same rights as Christians in the USA.

      Ronald Reagan put it rather well, speaking as President of the USA:

      QUOTE from Reagan’s speech to Temple Hillel in 1984

      We in the United States, above all, must remember that lesson, for we were founded as a nation of openness to people of all beliefs. And so we must remain. Our very unity has been strengthened by our pluralism.

      We establish no religion in this country, we command no worship, we mandate no belief, nor will we ever.

      Church and state are, and must remain, separate. All are free to believe or not believe, all are free to practice a faith or not, and those who believe are free, and should be free, to speak of and act on their belief

      • Reason2012

        America BY DESIGN is not a theocracy. Religious beliefs, doctrines, bibles and precepts are not law and have NO RELEVANCE TO LAW.

        And yet the SCOTUS redefined a religious institution of marriage and then forces every other religion to bow down to this new state religion or face criminal prosecution, lawsuits, or worse. So much for being against establishing religion: the state’s religion and their own definition of the religious institution of marriage supersedes all other religions.

        Everyone already had the same right to marry one person of the opposite gender. Some don’t want that right and pretend someone else denied them that right, which is a lie – they want a special right enforced on everyone to bow down to in the name of the lie “equal rights”.

        • RWH

          What exactly is religious about someone getting married in front of a judge? An increasing number of young people are having civil ceremonies in venues other than churches. Someone I knew just had one in a rented hall presided by a judge. There were no religious trappings whatsoever. The churches that these two people belonged to might not recognize the marriage, but that does not matter. The Church does not grant the 1000+ tax benefits that the government does, and what the government recognizes is what counts. The SCOTUS didn’t redefine anything. It expanded the right to those who were previously excluded. Unless you can prove that your own marriage was harmed because someone across town had a same-sex wedding, your argument is lame.

          • Reason2012

            Marriage was defined by God and existed from the beginning before there were any governments. You don’t need a church to get marriage: takes one man and one woman. But now SCOTUS tries to force their redefinition on everyone else by law, which is a violation of the Constitution.

          • Tangent002

            Marriage is a civil contract that allows consenting adults to designate one another as legal close relations when blood relation is not present.

            God has nothing to do with it, unless the couple wants it.

          • RWH

            This is getting tiresome. We have explained to you over and over that two gays getting married does not affect your particular marriage. Marriage was redefined when the courts declared that the wife was not the property of the man and that the concept of marital rape existed. In both cases, the wife was given some very concrete rights against an abusive husband.

            On the other hand, you cannot show us one single way in which your particular marriage was affected by that of someone else. But that lame excuse was also used when people fought against mixed and inter-racial marriages

          • tedlickb

            The deity in your mythology has no bearing on US marriage law.

            Your confusion with public accommodations laws is just a sad example of your ignorance (at least I hope it’s not stupidity).

            The case of “Sweet Cakes by Melissa”… they were sued (and lost) before gay marriage was recognized in Oregon.

            You’re conflating two separate issues.

        • Tangent002

          Matrimony is a religious institution. Marriage is a civil contract. To whit, you can engage in matrimony within a church, but you will not be legally married in the eyes of the state until certain documents are signed. On the obverse, legal marriage requires no sanctification by any church.

          • RWH

            I wonder if these people realize that a minister must get a license to conduct weddings in just about any state. He cannot conduct a legal marriage nor sign the certificate without that certificate from the state. In other words, the government, or civil marriage, trumps the Church each and every time.

        • jkarov

          News flash:

          Marriage in the USA IS NOT A RELIGIOUS INSTITUTION, and has no legal standing WITHOUT A MARRIAGE LICENSE issued by the town or county you live in.

          Marriage is a legally binding civil contract in the USA.

          You can have any ceremony you want in a mosque, church, or synagogue or your home, but without the CIVIL LICENSE issue BY GOVERNMENT it is NOT A LEGAL MARRIAGE, as defined by state laws.

          That’s exactly why the courts got involved, because YOU HAVE TO GET A GOVERNMENT LICENSE TO GET MARRIED!

          “Render unto Caesar”

        • tedlickb

          Marriage is a civil contract. It requires no mythology.

    • DTrevor

      Unfortunately, for decades now liberals have spread the lie that the United States of America is not a Christian theocracy. That is why I am not allowed to stone my children to death when they disobey me.

      • Reason2012

        No, you’re allowed instead to cut them to pieces as long as no part of their body has come forth from the womb yet. 57 MILLION babies slaughtered by their own parents and counting, all in the name of”I’m a free thinking – I don’t really believe in God”.

        • RWH

          And yet God commanded the Israelites to slaughter the pregnant women and small children when they marched around Jericho and later Ai.

          • Reason2012

            Small children and pregnant women were outside of Jericho when the Israelites were marching around it? Funny how you try to deflect to your promotion of child sacrifice of your own sons and daughters, slicing them into pieces, to the tune of over a million each year, by trying to point to something 3000+ years ago in a war that you can’t even describe with any sort of accuracy.

          • RWH

            It would surely help your cause if you bothered to actually read the Biblical account before you responded.

    • BigHobbit

      It is as settled as any law can possibly be. To say that it isn’t settled, is to argue that no law can ever be considered settled.
      It is settled enough for the popular expression to apply.

    • BigHobbit

      Anyone who can “turn away” from homosexuality, i.e., have sex with one sex, and then later have sex with the other, is a bisexual.

      The fact that some are bisexual doesn’t mean that everyone is bisexual. In fact most folks are only sexually oriented to one sex.

      It is as illogical to point to the existence of bisexuals to say that every homosexual can become a heterosexual as it would be to point to the existence of the ambidextrous to say the every left handed person can become a right handed person.

      It is a silly argument.

      • Reason2012

        No, they didn’t switch back and forth – they simply turned away from homosexuality.

        So let’s get this clear: if you’re homosexual, then your feelings do not matter and you cannot deny that your’e homosexual because that’s supposedly genetic. But if you’re a boy who FEELS like a girl, then genetics is out the window and how you FEEL is now the truth.

        They have to contradict themselves to pass off their perversion agenda on everyone else via laws and lawsuits.

        • RWH

          There is no genetic disposition for left-handedness. Years ago, left-handed children were slapped around until they conformed to everyone else and wrote with the right hand. Anyone can learn anything if s/he tries hard enough. However, we have no come to discover that allowing a child to write with his/her left hand hurts absolutely no one except the busybodies.

          • Reason2012

            Comparing sexual desires to writing with your left hand is disingenuous. To pretend homosexuality is genetic you’d have to pretend pedophilia and bestiality is genetic too.

            And of course, genetics is thrown out the window if a boy FEELS like a girl, and suddenly the new truth is how you feel. Except when it comes to homosexuality – even those who feel like they don’t want it anymore are out of luck since feelings suddenly no longer trump “genetics”.

            Nothing but deception by LGBT activists, the same activists who defend islam when they continue to slaughter LGBT, showing they don’t care for LGBT but instead are pro-islam anti-Christian activists.

          • RWH

            No reputable scientific organization agrees with you and neither do the courts. Homosexuality is an orientation. pedophilia and bestiality is not, are people who like to eat bugs or to eat the dirt beneath their toenails, and just about every other aberrant behavior. What is so sad about your logic is that the majority of the people out there see this type of logic as hate-mongering.

          • Charles

            Nothing Genetic. Just the Lord giving you up to your sin. Same goes with any other sin such as Adultery, fornication, pedophilia, bestiality, etc.

          • RWH

            If you read the text closely, you should notice that people rejected Christ before these other things set in. They don’t deal people who are faithful Christians who may stray. Again, the Bible is not a book of science. We have found some genetic causes for things that people considered to be demon possession. Christ labeled the mustard seed as the smallest of seeds, but we have found seeds that are much smaller. The Bible never alludes that the earth is a round globe, and because of it Galileo was persecuted by the Church.

            The one big problem with fundamentalists is that they are much, much too in love with the clobber verses and quite biblically illiterate of those that call for people to love their neighbor and not to judge. Judgement belongs within the house of God, and although I am a church member, I have absolutely no desire to hang around negativistic, judgmental people who have nothing better to do than to make their own house look good by throwing stones at those of other people.

          • Charles

            “”We have found some genetic causes for things that people considered to be demon possession.””

            While certainly some people suffered from diseases, mistaken for demonic possession demons are very real.

            “”Christ labeled the mustard seed as the smallest of seeds, but we have found seeds that are much smaller.””

            Mmmm. No.. That incorrect.

            (Mar 4:31) It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:

            Earth meaning ground, soil. He’s speaking of the smallest seed (Mustard seed) being the smallest in the ground compared to the rest of the seeds planted in a field. Even though it was the smallest seed in the ground, it grows up to be the largest of all the seeds in that harvest. He doesn’t say entire or whole earth. Just earth.. soil.

            “”The Bible never alludes that the earth is a round globe, and because of it Galileo was persecuted by the Church.””

            Yes, the Catholic Church persecuted Galileo (Honored by the Freemasons as they named a lodge after him for his heliocentric views).. You know, the same Freemasons who worship Satan? Like the Nazi run NASA Astronots. Just coincidence I suppose.. I mean why would they lie about the earth being a globe? Or anything else for that matter? ha ha.. Can’t make that up.

            “”The one big problem with fundamentalists is that they are much, much too in love with the clobber verses and quite biblically illiterate of those that call for people to love their neighbor and not to judge””

            There are many members of the Body of Christ. Each has their own appointed task. It’s important to speak of both as they are both truth. God does love his Children, and he wants you to know that Hell is a real place, so when judgment comes, we will be without excuse. Love they neighbor doesn’t have a thing to do with tolerating sinful behavior. If you truly love a person with let’s say alcoholism. Would you tell them they needed help, or would you slowly watch them kill themselves or possibly others? Of course you wouldn’t. Nothing shows more love than the truth which is the Word of God.

            “”Judgement belongs within the house of God, and although I am a church member, I have absolutely no desire to hang around negativistic, judgmental people who have nothing better to do than to make their own house look good by throwing stones at those of other people.””

            We are called to judge with righteous judgment.

            (Joh 7:24) Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

            Final judgment is with The Lord Jesus Christ.

            If being around the faithful who care enough to share the truth in love is not a situation you feel comfortable in, there are plenty of man centered religions that may work better for you.

          • tedlickb

            It doesn’t matter if it’s genetic.

            The choice to follow religion sets precedent. Thanks for that.

        • BigHobbit

          So lets get this clear: If you are a free citizen, then it isn’t up to the Government to decide to interfere with who you choose to marry, unless the Government has a constitutionally valid reason to interfere.

        • tedlickb

          If they’re not lost the attraction to the same sex, it’s denial, not change.

    • tedlickb

      Scotus didn’t make law. Marriage is unchanged.

      Your religion is not US law. It’s meaningless in that regard.

      No different than Islam.

  • Omnicopy

    He ain’t no christian

    • Peter Leh

      nor does he have to be

    • jkarov

      The Constitution mandates NO RELIGIOUS TEST for any Federal or state office
      Article 6, paragraph 3

      QUOTE:
      The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all EXECUTIVE AND JUDICIAL OFFICERS, both of the United States AND of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

      The founders of our nation mandated freedom of religion, and freedom from religion even for the highest offices in the land.

      • God rejects freedom of religion.

        • Tangent002

          Which is why your God has no place in U.S. government.

        • jkarov

          The Constitution not only mandates freedom OF religion, it goes as far as mandating freedom FROM RELIGION in the 1st amendment

          “Congress shall make no law regarding establishment of religion, or preventing the free exercise thereof”

          You can believe and practice whatever you want, and I can revel in the liberty of being free FROM all religious belief, as long as we are not breaking laws of our SECULAR REPUBLIC.

          All US Citizens are bound by law to uphold the 1st Amendment, and to the mandates laid down by Supreme Court, which include equal rights for women, blacks, and gays.

  • The General

    There’s a higher Judge than you, bud. The SCOTUS has no more power to redefine marriage than to proclaim that 2 + 2 = 5. Those 5 slobs on the SCOTUS who handed down that decision will have to answer to God for the effect their rash decision had on all Americans.

    • Ambulance Chaser

      Of course they can. SCOTUS makes rulings of law. They made one.

    • BigHobbit

      And, I am sure, we are all looking forward to meeting this “higher Judge” of yours.

      In the mean time, as 60% of Americans are in favor of legal same sex marriage, with well more than 75% of those under thirty, we will muddle through with both legal and social progress, where citizens are allowed to marry who they choose, without unconstitutional interference by the govt.

      • Charles

        “”And, I am sure, we are all looking forward to meeting this “higher Judge” of yours.””

        Not with the path you have currently chosen you won’t. That could all change if you repent and follow the Lord.

        • BigHobbit

          Yes, well. Threatening a non-Christian with hell is about as effective as threatening someone who disbelieves in the Norse pantheon with missing out on Valhalla. Or telling a disbelieving teenager that Santa will put coal in his stocking.
          You aren’t going to attract non-Christians to your theological beliefs by threatening things that they don’t believe in.

          • Charles

            Sorry to waste your time.

          • BigHobbit

            If you still want to ban same sex marriage in America, you are going to have to provide a constitutionally valid way to do so.
            You can amend the constitution. You can wait for a generational change to the existing supreme court, and then wait for another case to make it’s slow way to the final appeal.
            It is going to take time, and way more public support that is in evidence now. More than 60% of Americans tell Gallup and Pew that they support same sex marriage. More than 75% of those under thirty.
            In Massachusetts, where there has been same sex marriage the longest, those polling “strongly opposed” has dwindled to the national low of 13%.
            It can be supposed that the longer a state has legal same sex marriage, the less opposition there is. As the hyperbolic predictions of the doomsayers are revealed as so much hokum.
            There are more folks in Mississippi who are strongly opposed to interracial marriage than that.

    • tedlickb

      We don’t live under your chosen religious law.

  • Omnicopy

    In other words from Trump and him we are stuck with same sex marriage! Don’t think so!!!

    • Ambulance Chaser

      If you don’t like same sex marriage, don’t have one. Then you won’t be stuck with it.

      • Omnicopy

        I don’t have one and I don’t want to be forced to deal with them!

        • RWH

          Well, there’s not a whole lot you can do about it.

          • Omnicopy

            Wanna bet! I’ll cast their homo demons out of them! Bet ya they’ll like that a whole lot!!!!

          • Michael C

            You believe that gay people are actually just straight people who are possessed by homosexual demons?

            …and you believe that you can use a spell to “cast” these gay demons out of these otherwise heterosexual men and women?

            …and you believe that after you’re done practicing this incantation, the gay men and women will then be straight?

            You believe that you possess the power to turn gay people straight? Why haven’t you already done this? If you actually hold this ability, why aren’t you using it?

          • Omnicopy

            And just why exactly should I answer you!

          • Michael C

            Generally, the term “demonize” is used figuratively. When most people choose to demonize a group of people, they do so by using negative stereotypes and denigrating generalizations.

            You, however, are literally demonizing a whole minority population that you personally disfavor.

            For your sake, I sure hope hell isn’t a real place.

          • Omnicopy

            Micheal you call good evil and evil good and that’s not good!

          • C_Alan_Nault

            Science has said over and over that humans are not born gay.

          • Michael C

            Science has said over and over that humans are not born gay.

            Firstly, I never made the claim that people are born gay.

            Second, science has “said” nothing of the sort. We don’t know why some people are gay. Science hasn’t “explained” it to us yet. If you believe otherwise, you don’t understand how science works.

            What is clear, however, is that we don’t get to choose our sexual orientation. Of course we can choose how we respond to our attractions, but we don’t seem to be able to pick them.

          • C_Alan_Nault

            Yes, science has proven that humans are not born gay.

          • RWH

            If you decide to do that, you might want to do it from a distance. You can spend a good chunk of your life in prison for assault and battery if you do it “in their face).

          • Omnicopy

            Oh that’s easy! I shall not be visited by evil!

          • james blue

            If I was a betting man I would say you protest too much

          • Reason0verhate

            You’re not even a man.

          • Omnicopy

            If they get in my face, that’s exactly what they will get

          • Johndoe

            Lol!

        • Ambulance Chaser

          You said you were stuck with same sex marriage. Then you changed it to not wanting to have to deal with “them.” Which is it?

          • Omnicopy

            Not stuck with nothing, they come around me they will get cast out!!!

          • tedlickb

            Wow… you’re crazy.

            If I was a praying man, I’d pray for you to get some much needed help.

        • William of Glynn

          In time, you’ll get used to the idea.

          • Jason Todd

            No, he won’t.

          • Johndoe

            Sure he will

          • Omnicopy

            How do you like this! I cast out the Homo demons in the USA in Jesus Christ Name

          • William of Glynn

            I’m Rubber,
            You’re Glue!
            Bounces off of me
            And sticks to you!

          • tedlickb

            No, darlin’, you didn’t.

          • Omnicopy

            It’s already done, now sit back and watch!!!

          • tedlickb

            You’re lying… isn’t that a “sin”, or is it OK for crazy people to lie?

          • Omnicopy

            That’s an easy question to answer. I’m not lying

          • tedlickb

            Oh, but yes, you are.

          • Omnicopy

            You are the liar

          • Chris

            When are we supposed to see the result of this ‘exorcism’ at a distance? What do we even look for?

          • Omnicopy

            Each exorcism is different. They happen the way God wants them to. Sometimes you see a lot, sometimes you don’t. First one I went thru all the demons talked and it was a full blown exorcism, but I’ve never been thru another like that. Thru the Holy Spirit’s gift of discerning of spirits you might hear a demon talk or just be told how many a person has and their names. Every experience is different. I’ve done it for over 34 years.

          • Chris

            I have a few questions.
            1) How can you tell the difference between mental illness and demon possession?
            2) How do you know when an exorcism has worked considering that all of them are so different?
            3) Do you have evidence that demons exist?

          • Omnicopy

            Question 1)with God we have a sound mind II Timothy 1:7
            Question 2)I can feel the demons leave
            Question 3)no other than all the bible verses about them, I’m sure you could get one to talk to you fairly easily, if you ever get around a possessed person just say “I command you to speak in Jesus Christ Name” and they probably will, you need to be a Christian though

          • Chris

            “Question 1)with God we have a sound mind II Timothy 1:7”

            That doesn’t answer my question. How do YOU tell the difference between mental illness and possession? Let’s say the person coming to you isn’t a Christian. How do you know they aren’t just mentally ill?

            “Question 2)I can feel the demons leave”

            Can you be mistaken about this?

            “Question 3)no other than all the bible verses about them,…”

            But since you can’t speak the original languages then all you have is your interpretation of a translation. Correct?

            “I’m sure you could get one to talk to you fairly easily, if you ever get around a possessed person just say “I command you to speak in Jesus Christ Name” and they probably will, you need to be a Christian though.”

            What you’re describing is someone suffering from ‘religious mania’.

      • Reason2012

        If you don’t like an 18 year old girl marrying her dad, don’t have one. Then you won’t be stuck with it.

        • RWH

          Would you like to show us the list of states that allow people to marry anyone closer than a distant cousin?

          • Reason2012

            Of course there isn’t one -because you’re against it as well, which shows you’re not about “equal rights for all”. Glad you caught on.

          • RWH

            So, other than to show your contempt for gays, what was your point?

          • Lexical Cannibal

            Quick fact check: There are at least twenty states that allow the marriage of close, first cousins, by my count, though that’s generally about as close as you can get. The states in question are Alabama, Alaska, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Georgia, Hawai’i, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Vermont, Virginia, Maine on the condition that you can produce proof that you have seen a genetic counselor, and the states of Wisconsin, Utah, Illinois, and Arizona, on the condition that the couple cannot produce children.

        • Tangent002

          A marriage between father and daughter is legally superfluous, as they already have most, if not all, of the legal benefits, rights, and duties because of their existing blood relation.

        • Ambulance Chaser

          Okay, I won’t.

        • tedlickb

          Sweetcheeks, you need to overturn incest laws first… then you might get what you want.

      • C_Alan_Nault

        Gay is a choice. Science has proven it over and over again, The new study released in the UK further proves it.

        • Ambulance Chaser

          What study is that? I can’t find such a study anywhere.

          • C_Alan_Nault

            Don’t use google. They are gay lovers and hide the searches. The latest study (and final grant funded study) was in the UK.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Yes, and? What should I use if not Google?

            Something crazy like, oh I don’t know, you giving me a citation?

          • C_Alan_Nault

            Bing, duckduckgo, ask, webcrawler, are just a few. This has nothing to do with religion, but please, please, do your research on Google. It has been proven that they spy on their users, sale their search habits and personal info, turn on their cameras and mics, and so much more.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Okay, enough deflecting and subject-changing.

            You said there’s a study “that proves” being gay is a choice. What author, what journal, what title, what date?

          • C_Alan_Nault

            Search “there is no gay gene” “proof that people are not born gay”

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Last chance or I’m dropping the subject and assuming you don’t have any evidence. Author, Title, Journal, Date, or we’re done.

          • C_Alan_Nault

            You can pick up your doll and stomp off. There are dozens of peer reviewed and registered studies. Go search.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Not my responsibility. You make the claim, you bring the evidence. It’s not my job to prove your point for you.

            And, since I said you had one last chance, which you blew, I can only assume there is no such study.

          • C_Alan_Nault

            I’m not trying to prove anything. I do this thing where I list facts and couldn’t care less if you believe them.

    • BigHobbit

      Yeah, just like we were stuck with interracial marriage.

      • Omnicopy

        Just as long as it is a man and woman, no transgenders.

        • BigHobbit

          You can marry who ever you like. You church can limit marriages in the church to whatever they like.

          The government of the USA cannot deny marriage to anyone without a constitutionally valid reason. Thus, state laws that denied the right to same sex couples were struck down, as the states failed in court to produce one constitutionally valid reason – a rational reason linked to a legitimate government concern which would allow them to deny the right to same sex couples.

          • Omnicopy

            I’ll give you one reason, it is an abomination to God.

          • BigHobbit

            Well, as there is the first amendment in this country, and as OTHER folks belong to different churches, with differing ideas on what qualifies as an “abomination”, that may be a good reason for YOU, but the US Government needs a reason that passes constitutional muster.
            Whatever your religious reason it, it ain’t good enough in court.

          • Omnicopy

            When a nation chooses to do evil it affects everyone, it affects that nation. God’s people have a responsibility to warn the people.

          • BigHobbit

            What YOUR church calls evil, may not be what MY church calls evil.
            Just because YOUR religious beliefs prevent the eating of pork, for instance, doesn’t mean you can prohibit ME from eating pork.
            Catholics may not divorce and remarry, but they cannot prevent non-Catholics from doing so.
            You have the right to practice your religion. You do not have the right to practice your religion on others without their consent.

          • Omnicopy

            Our churches are demon possesed so this has nothing to do with churches anymore. We are way way far down the rabbithole now. The 10 commandments tell us what evil is.

          • BigHobbit

            Huh. Which of the 10 commandments was it that banned same sex marriage?

          • Omnicopy

            The 1st one

          • Chris

            “The 10 commandments tell us what evil is.” Which version? You do know that there are more than one version of the 10 Commandments, right? And the group that is actually called the 10 Commandments probably isn’t the one you’re thinking of.

          • Omnicopy

            Love the Lord your God with all your heart, strength, and soul. If we truly loved God this way we wouldn’t mind doing everything He commands us to do. His commandments are not grievous!

          • Chris

            That isn’t in either version of the Ten Commandments.

          • Omnicopy

            That is found in 3 bible verses in the bible one of them is Deut. 11:13.

          • Chris

            Strange because those aren’t the versions CALLED the ‘Ten Commandments’ in the bible.

          • Omnicopy

            Chris I’m going to be praying privately for you to that you have deliverance. I hope you are open to God doing something in your life.

          • Chris

            “I hope you are open to God doing something in your life.”

            I would hope I am open to anything from God.

          • Omnicopy

            Obviously you offended me deeply! The things I go thru are hard enough without others implying I’m mentally ill!!!! My mother did that a lot! I will cast your demons out thru prayer, but you need to pray and fast in your life till you see some big change. Don’t stop fasting! Even if you can only fast for a meal a week, just keep fasting. I’ve already fasted for up to 18 months for some things.

          • Chris

            “Obviously you offended me deeply!”

            Once again apologies.

            “The things I go thru are hard enough without others implying I’m mentally ill!!!!”

            I fail to see where I did that. Allow me to explain where I am coming from. I am a skeptic but like Socrates I know that I do not know. I find the existence of demons doubtful but I am certainly open to evidence of their existence.

            You say that you have experienced demons then who am I to say you haven’t? Your claim may well be true but I do not KNOW it.

            “My mother did that a lot!”

            I am sorry to hear that.

            “I will cast your demons out thru prayer, but you need to pray and fast in your life till you see some big change. Don’t stop fasting! Even if you can only fast for a meal a week, just keep fasting. I’ve already fasted for up to 18 months for some things.”

            Truthfully I can’t promise the fasting since I am addicted to my food. 🙂 But I’ll see what I can do.

          • Omnicopy

            Just where in the bible does it say to call someone mentally ill? Do unto others like you want done to you????? I guess you must like people calling you mentally ill?????

          • Chris

            Where did I call anyone mentally ill?

          • Omnicopy

            Look at your posts

          • Chris

            I did. The only one I could fin which even suggested that was when you described someone who was ‘possessed’ as manifesting their possession when you commanded them to speak in Jesus’ name. I replied by suggesting that the person who was manifesting the posession sounded more like they were suffering from religious mania.

            That’s as close as I’ve come from what I’ve found.

          • Omnicopy

            I’m sorry then cause I took that you were implying that toward me. My mistake. It’s hard to communicate on here sometimes. that’s what my mom always did to me, told me I needed to be hospitalized all the time. Sore spot! Not any fun! Just kind of tired of talking now. I just wish you well!!! Just would kind like to stop talking right now.

          • Omnicopy

            Ta ta done here, don’t need getting upset like this! Slowly getting to the point I feel no sorrow for the world and what they will go thru, they deserve it!!!

          • Chris

            Ok. I hope you are feeling happier tomorrow.

          • Trilemma

            Where in the Bible does it say that same sex marriage is an abomination?

          • Tangent002

            You will never get an answer.

          • Omnicopy

            The Torah, the Book of Romans, in Judges 20-22 Israel about killed off one of their 12 tribes because of homosexuality. Most people don’t even know the story of destroying the Tribe of Benjiman at the end of the Book of Judges.

          • Trilemma

            Can you be more specific? I don’t know anywhere in the Torah, Romans, or Judges where same sex marriage is called an abomination. It was not because of homosexuality that the tribe of Benjamin was nearly wiped out. It was because they refused to turn over the men that gang raped a man’s concubine to death.

          • Charles

            Why mention something that doesn’t exist? The Lord already told you that homosexual behavior is an abomination. End of story.

          • Omnicopy

            Go look it up yourself. Those aren’t the only places in the bible, there’s more. In Judges 19 the men of the city wanted the man to rape him! Duh!!! Wrong, they wanted the man to KNOW him so he gave them his woman. So the man organized the rest of the tribes of Israel to destroy the Tribe of Benjiman. The tribe where eventually the city of Jerusalem would be located in.

          • tedlickb

            That has nothing to do with our laws.

          • Omnicopy

            Yes it does. A nation is not to decree unrighteous decrees.

          • tedlickb

            You’re insane.

            I’m grateful we don’t live under a mythology that would drive people mad like you are.

        • Trilemma

          Is it okay with you if a transgender man marries a transgender woman?

          • Omnicopy

            I think 2 transgenders are better than 2 gays, but my oh my how messed up people are!!!!

    • tedlickb

      What, in detail, do you think you can do to change it?

      • Omnicopy

        That’s for me to know

        • tedlickb

          In other words, Crazy One ain’t changing anything.

          Nice.

          • Omnicopy

            Hillary lost didn’t she. We can never change anything, can we lololololol

          • tedlickb

            Who cares if she lost?

            I didn’t vote for her sweetie… sorry to disappoint.

          • Omnicopy

            When did I ever say you did vote for her?

          • tedlickb

            If I didn’t, why do I care that she lost?

  • Omnicopy

    Wow to those who decree unrighteous decrees!

    • Fee

      Agreed, but I’m sure you meant woe, not wow. God bless!

      • Omnicopy

        Thanks, changed it, spell check

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    The Episcopals should stop claiming to be Christian because they are not. White men should stop applying the racial equality upon sexual sins. What a racist absurdity. Another tyranny from the West is on its way. Sad.

    • Peter Leh

      and religious equality? religion is not genetic, you know?

      • Amos Moses

        yes … studies show that we are genetically predisposed to believe in God ……..

        Belief in God is part of human nature – Oxford study – Telegraph
        telegraph co uk/news/politics/8510711/Belief-in-G
        12 May 2011 … Humans are naturally predisposed to believe in gods and life after death, according to a major three-year international study.

        • Peter Leh

          so if we change religion we are protected, because we in this country do not protect the one true religion and ban the false ones.. so therefore by Your own reference … support the right for others to change their sexual preference?

          Jeez.. you are to easy.

          • Amos Moses

            there is so much confusion in that post it is hard to even deal with …….. first …… we do not choose God …… He chooses us …… lets start there ………..

          • Peter Leh

            Wait YOU said it is in our GENES to choose God?

            Come on gatekeeper…. who is confused?

          • Amos Moses

            no … that is NOT what i said nor what the article said … read it again ………..

        • tedlickb

          But you choose to follow the christian faith. And can change it at any time.

          Religion is just a choice.

          • Amos Moses

            No …. your mistake is that you think we choose the God of christianity …. we do not …. He chooses us ….. it is one way ….. it is not our choice ………….. it is all His choice ……….. has nothing to do with our choice …………

          • tedlickb

            No, it’s all a choice.

            People go from christian to jew, jew to muslim, muslim to jew, christian to muslim, christian to hindu, hindu to scientologist, scientologist to jew…

            It’s nothing but a choice.

          • Amos Moses

            No ….. you CLEARLY do not know what christianity is ………….

          • tedlickb

            A religion.

            One that can change at any time.

          • Amos Moses

            Nope ……….

          • tedlickb

            You cannot be telling me with a straight face that people don’t convert from one religion to another.

            Or is this a veiled case of No True Scotsman?

          • Amos Moses

            oh they convert all the time … has not one thing to do with whether a person is a christian ….. NTS does not apply … FAIL …………

          • tedlickb

            Oy…

          • Amos Moses

            vey ……….

          • Amos Moses

            there are only two religions in the world ….. christianity ….. and everything else ….. all the others have one thing in common ….. “DO” …… christianity says “It Is Done” ………. and there lies all the difference …..

          • tedlickb

            LOL… if you’re a christian.

            If you’re a muslim, your statement is not true.

            See, you don’t get to say what religion is legit and what religion ain’t.

            “no true religion” is no different than “no true Scotsman”.

          • Amos Moses

            no ….. the truth has nothing to do with a personal belief … it is true whether you believe it or not ….. all of any religion other than christianity has the focus of is “do this” and “do that” …. it is all focused on doing things to be saved ….. there is nothing for the christian to do to be saved ……… it has all already been done …… by Christ ….. Christ does the choosing …. not us ……….

            “no true Scotsman”

            this has to be the stupidest argument i have encountered ….. does Burger King get to say what is a Whopper and what is not …… does McDonalds get to say they have the Whopper and not Burger King …… who gets to decide ………….

          • tedlickb

            Truth is backed by fact… no religion on earth is backed by fact, only faith.

            Call it stupid all you wish, it applies. You do not get to decide for others what a christian is.

            And, luckily, I do not have to live under the tenets of the christian mythology.

          • Amos Moses

            No ….. the truth does not need to be proven … it is revealed ….. it is either accepted or rejected …. “facts” either comport to the truth or they do not … they do not prove the truth ….. the truth is at the pinnacle …… facts lie below it … not above it ……

            ANSWER THE QUESTION ………

            does Burger King get to say what is a Whopper and what is not …… does McDonalds get to say they have the Whopper and not Burger King …… who gets to decide ………….

            “christian mythology.”

            is that a scientific, theological argument or person opinion ………………

          • tedlickb

            ROFLOL!

            Wow… talking about talking in circles!

            2+2=4. Truth. It’s backed by fact.
            Fire burns. Truth. It’s backed by fact.

            Your religion is backed only by those who have chosen to believe in it.

            Burger King owns the right to the Whopper… you do not own the rights to being christian. Bad comparison is very bad.

            It’s all just mythology, as Joseph Campbell pointed out.

            And I reject it all.

          • Amos Moses

            “2+2=4. Truth. It’s backed by fact.
            Fire burns. Truth. It’s backed by fact.”

            which is exactly as i said …..

            ” you do not own the rights to being christian.”

            all christians get to decide who is and who is not ….. sorry …. power granted by Christ ……. it is called discernment ……….. you are wrong …. FAIL …… NTS does not apply …….

            “It’s all just mythology, as Joseph Campbell pointed out.”

            ok … so i heard personal opinion ….. and not even your personal opinion ….. and you have no proof …….. just some one elses OPINION ……….

          • tedlickb

            All your religion is: personal opinion… something chosen, something you want to believe in. Agreed.

            You don’t own the rights to who is christian… you do not get to claim it for other people.

          • Amos Moses

            “You don’t own the rights to who is christian… you do not get to claim it for other people.”

            as one of Christ adopted children ….. yeah … i do ….. WRONG …………

            “All your religion is: personal opinion… something chosen, something you want to believe in. Agreed”

            Disagree ….. it is all Christs ……… and it is not an opinion ….. it is the truth …. and it applies to you whether you agree or not … whether you accept and recognize it or not …… He created you …. He has control of you ….. And if He decides you are His ….. you will have absolutely no choice in the matter ……

          • tedlickb

            No, you don’t.

          • Amos Moses

            wrong ………

          • Amos Moses

            “And I reject it all.”

            so what ………..

          • tedlickb

            That is MY choice…

            It’s not forced on me in law, it doesn’t shape our government treatment of citizens… it’s meaningless.

            And it should be.

          • Amos Moses

            nope …. it is CHRISTS choice for you ……….

          • tedlickb

            Nope. That’s just pretty sounding. There is zero evidence for it.

            “believeth in him” doesn’t sound like the deity is choosing anything. It’s YOU actively doing something, not a mythical deity.

          • Amos Moses

            so you want to talk scripture ……… we are chosen before the foundation of the world …. predestined ………

            1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
            1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
            1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
            1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
            1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
            1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
            1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
            1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
            1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
            1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
            1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
            1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
            1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
            1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
            1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
            1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
            1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
            1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
            1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
            1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

          • 0pus

            You fck little boys.

          • tedlickb

            Aw, look… she’s trying to be a big girl, Ma!

            Such a sweet little girl!

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        Facts are facts. It is Anti-Christian to endorse abortion-murder and homosexual immorality. Read Revelation chapters 2-3. It’s disasterous for all mankind to be forced to endorse those sins by American whites this century. It’s the real slavery because sin is slavery. John 8. Slavery never ends except by accepting all of the Holy Bible.

    • james blue

      Careful, all these people you claim are not Christian would mean that America isn’t a Christian nation

      • Amos Moses

        it is not ….. it WAS a nation of christians …… that does not mean it is a christian nation ………..

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        Americans were not perv-supporters until some decades ago. You guys went horribly wrong by blaspheming God and scorning your own parents and equating the colored people and sexually sinful people. What a stupid way to be insulted by the Western whites this century. You guys are seeking warped amusement for yourselves by insulting all Earthlings just because you are rich and powerful on a suffering planet.

        • RWH

          If we are so repulsive an disgusting, Grace, why are you sticking your nose into our business? The fact that we are the richest and most powerful nation in the world tells us that we are doing something right. And that right thing is that we allow people the freedom to live out their lives in liberty. I just can’t figure out what all these “evil” gay people have ever done to you. You speak in such broad generalizations that your comments are meaningless.

    • BigHobbit

      It is a free country. People don’t have to limit themselves to what YOU call Christians.
      They have the constitutionally protected religious right to call themselves Christians, despite your protests.

      • Bob Johnson

        “It is a free country.”
        So someone is free to impersonate us, Grace is getting up votes from “Big Hobbit” and a “Bob Johnson” both of whom have private accounts.

        • BigHobbit

          Huh, how about that.
          Well, it isn’t like I have trademarked the nom de internet.
          My account is not private.
          On reflection, I guess I don’t really care about “votes”, any way, they don’t really do much of anything.
          Wonder if this creature is actually posting comments under that name?
          What do you think is an appropriate response, if any?

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        Constitution never protects sexual depravity. Immoral Western whites force people to submit to immorality. A typical of Sodomites. God will intervene to halt the Western Sodom’s madness. The Western nations have no sane conscience or morality apart from Christianity.

        • RWH

          The Constitution indeed protects everyone, not just the people you like. Same sex marriage is the law of the land whether you like it or not. Some states such as Massachusetts have had same-sex marriage for over a decade, and the state is doing just fine.

          Grace, why don’t you get into some meaningful discussion instead of simply preaching at us? We’re already aware that you don’t know squat, and you just confirm this more and more every time you post. The ability to accept Christ and enter the gates of heaven are not predicated whether someone likes gays or not or whether someone feels that gays should have the right to get married. David and Jonathan were really close buddies in the Old Testament, and there is not one word of condemnation.

        • BigHobbit

          The Constitution always protects individuals from unconstitutional behavior by the government.
          Unless you can find a constitutionally valid reason to ban “sexual depravity,” then the government is not allowed to interfere with individual liberty. Your religious beliefs are not constitutionally valid reasons.
          I definitely do not need Christianity to live. What a silly assertion – there are billions of non Christians in the world. They are demonstrably alive.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            It is no longer possible to halt secular nations’ depravity, but Christians can still retain freedom by declaring the homosexuality as sin. You are just another ignorant, spoiled Westerner; human rights and freedom do not exist outside of Christendom. Well-fed secular Western whites are pushing Sodomy on a suffering planet as if mankind’s grief is not enough.

          • BigHobbit

            An ad hominem attack neither advances your argument, nor contravenes mine.
            Your starting premise is that there is a reason to halt what you imagine to be “depravity.” In America, we have a Constitution. That prevents the government from interference in individuals rights to behave how they see fit, unless the government can show, in court, a constitutionally valid reason to do so.
            What is the constitutionally valid reason for the government to deny the right of marriage to same sex couples? In dozens of federal court cases, no state was able to show that it had a constitutionally valid reason to deny marriage to same sex couples.
            YOU and YOUR religious beliefs are not constitutionally valid reasons to interfere in your fellow citizens lives.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Homosexuality is sin. Western whites place colored people and sexually depraved people in the same category and that has been altogether racist evil. Your culture needs to be fixed by the Christian Church.

          • BigHobbit

            What YOUR church call a sin is only applicable to YOUR church.
            Millions of American Christians belong to denominations that ordain gay clergy, and celebrate same sex marriage. Obviously different churches interpret scripture differently.
            You can logically represent A Christian view on the matter. You cannot logically represent THE Christian view, as there are so many other Christians who do not agree.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            It is the Holy Bible. Christianity is for-ever incompatible with Western Sodom’s decadence. Those who do not follow the Word of God in such a fundamental level should not call themselves Christian.

          • BigHobbit

            In America, we have the freedom to worship at the church we choose.
            An that church has the freedom to call themselves Christian. Whether you agree with that or not.
            As YOU see the word of God in one way, and THEY see the word of God in another, each of you convince that you have the “one true way”, and that the other is the heretics, or at least in theological error.
            Christians have been splitting and schism-ing, and branching and reforming since there have been Christians, it isn’t surprising that there are doctrinal differences.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Denominations are for defining the truth more accurately; but the sodomic social clubs are unacceptable because the errors are too fundamental. They resemble the New Age rather than anything of Christianity. You are a non-believer and you have no relation to Christianity. You are doing this here to just suppress the real Christians, taking the side of Sodomites.

          • BigHobbit

            Other churches are allowed to define their own doctrine. They are under no obligation to not be fundamentally different.
            They don’t have to meet YOUR expectations about what a church is.
            THAT is true religious freedom.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are wrong. True religious freedom is being able to reject the Western Sodomites’ demands.

          • BigHobbit

            You may reject whatever you like. You just can’t insist that the government kow tow to YOUR religious beliefs.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Western authorities are wrong. Without the Biblical Christianity, there is no truth or human rights or freedom or equality. Ex-christian West oppresses mankind with the imposed sexual depravity, and that tyranny must get halted by the establishment of religious freedom.

          • BigHobbit

            I am not suppressing anyone. I am observing that there are many different kinds of Christians, and many of them do not have the same doctrines as you.
            I am taking the side of protecting individual rights from unconstitutional government intrusion.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Biblical Evangelical Christians hold the same doctrines and they are the right Christians under the light of the Word of God. Secular West persecutes the Christians for not-endorsing homosexual sins, and the persecution needs to be addressed. Freedom is for living out God’s truth.

          • BigHobbit

            “Secular West” doesn’t persecute Christians. What stuff.
            If you have a business, you don’t get a special “right” to harm others by violating consumer protection laws that ban pernicious discrimination.
            That is hardly “persecution”. You are making things up.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Rejecting immorality is not discrimination but the right thing to do. Sodomites should bake their own cakes instead of forcing moral people to do such things. Secular Western whites are trying to subdue mankind by homosexuality this century. It was the right thing for the whites last century to treat the colored equally, but that principle should not be applied for sexual immorality. Skin colors are God’s creation, but homosexuality/transgenderism is sin. Everyone should have a freedom to reject to do anything to do with sexual immorality. Today’s West is not free; they prohibit the truth and morality and freedom.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            It’s what the Holy Bible teaches. Yours is not Church but an apostate social club. The Word of God decides what is Church and what is not. Read it.

          • BigHobbit

            Every church reads the “Word of God”, and interprets it according to their particular doctrine. They are a church, because they say they are a church. THAT is what freedom of religion actually is.
            They have the freedom to decide that doctrine for themselves. They are not forced to adopt YOUR doctrine.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            All of the Holy Bible must be believed. Those who pick and choose are dishonest. The social clubs are denying the existence of sin by endorsing homosexuality and therefore denying the essential doctrines of Christianity, not minor doctrines. THe Holy Bible told the Church to treat them as non-believers.

          • BigHobbit

            EVERY church believes in the Holey Bible. They read it, and they believe in it. They just interpret it differently than you do.
            They have the right to scriptural interpretation according to THEIR churches doctrine. They are not forced to believe in YOUR churches doctrine.

          • tedlickb

            The crazy is STRONG in that one.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The Holy Bible prohibits murder and immorality, but the Episcoplas support both; they are not Christian.

          • BigHobbit

            YOU lack any authority to say that Episcopalians are not Christians.
            In America, we have religious freedom, and a Church may call itself Christian if it likes. It doesn’t need YOUR approval.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Episcopals are not Christian according to the Holy Bible. You are not Christian; you know nothing about Christianity.

          • BigHobbit

            “Episcopals are not Christian according” to YOUR interpretation of the Holy Bible. Obviously, they have a DIFFERENT interpretation of the Holy Bible.
            You lack authority to decide who is, or is not a Christian.
            As free Americans, folks are allowed to make up their own minds, they are not forced to believe as you do.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            There is only one right way to interpret the Holy Bible – taking everything into account without picking and choosing from the Biblical text. The Holy Bible condemns both murder of the innocent and homosexuality. The Episcopals endorse both; therefore the Episcopals are not Christian. You are defending something wrong and evil, and that’s what today’s Ex-christian Western culture is doing.

          • BigHobbit

            I am not a Christian. I am also not a woman. It doesn’t mean that I am ignorant of woman. It doesn’t take a Christian to observe that there are hundreds of different KINDS of Christians, many, many different churches, schisms, cults and denominations. It doesn’t take a Christian to study the historiography of the various versions, translations and editions of the holy scripture, and to observe how many different traditions have sprung from them.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are not Christian and you are not a woman; that’s why you support cults and men entering into women’s bathrooms to endanger women and children. You guys need Biblical Christianity to become truth-seeking and fair and truthful.

          • BigHobbit

            I don’t claim to have a Church. I have already said that I am not a Christian. I don’t belong to any social club.
            Every Church teaches what is in the Holy Bible. According to their own churches doctrine.
            THAT is true religious freedom.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            I mean the social club you grew up with. Some doctrines are so plain essential that opposing those visibly divides the true Christians and apostates/heretics/cults. You are not Christian so you have no idea.

        • BigHobbit

          “A typical of well-fed Sodomites.”
          If that is a jibe at me, it is misplaced. (You might want to consider a verb, so that folks can understand your point.)
          I am an older man, married to a woman, in a Catholic church, with grown daughters and a new grandson.
          Well, I will admit to being well-fed, perhaps too well fed if BMI is to be relied upon.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Why are you Western whites promoting homosexuality like some madmen this century? Are your intact descendants really your own? Are you really sorry for all the Western atrocities done before? Why do you let pervs into women’s restrooms? Racist whites are morally better than perv whites; remember that because they protected their women and children. Imagine you’ve been discriminated against for having darker skin and then for opposing sick immorality by the same people. The West does mega evil if it has no Christianity.

          • BigHobbit

            What I am promoting is that the individual freedoms guaranteed by the US Constitution be enforced. That the government only be able to interfere with private citizens if the government can show a constitutionally valid reason.
            Why are you promoting a religious suppression on free American citizens?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            All people must have rights to God’s truth and morality and a clear conscience. That was the reason of establishment of freedom. Globalist Western whites are trying to enslave mankind by bending the truth and the human conscience. Biblically illiterate people fall as a prey. Where there is no truth, there is no freedom; in USA’s case, it’s Sodom’s mental slavery now. American Christians are suffering; anyone must speak up. You are no Catholic; you should listen even to Pope if you can’t read the Holy Bible and stop promoting immorality.

          • BigHobbit

            All people have the right to worship as they choose. Some will choose to believe as you do, many will choose to worship in other ways, in other churches.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The West forces people to endorse sexual immorality; that’s no freedom. It’s a mental slavery by decadence.

          • BigHobbit

            The west doesn’t force anyone into anything. It just doesn’t interfere.
            It is YOUR idea to FORCE people to stop doing things that YOU think they shouldn’t be doing.
            The west is free. What you are proposing is the slavery to YOUR theology.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are offenders’ side and don’t notice anything. Western whites and their mental slaves are installing slavery by forcing mankind to submit to homosexuality this century and it must be opposed by all normal people. No Bible = No truth or rights or freedom.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Ya, but the USA fines and jails and persecutes those who live out the Christianity. This century’s villain is Sodomic West. You guys need to repent of persecuting the Christians.

    • BigHobbit

      Religious busy bodies should stop trying to tell those of OTHER religious denominations how they should worship, interpret scripture, or who they should allow to marry in their church.
      THAT is the true religious freedom.

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        Christianity condemns homosexuality. Christianity and sexual immorality are for-ever incompatible. Sodomy-enforcing Western churches are not Christian; they are self-congratulating New Age clubs. The Western whites lost their wits by thinking they have to accept sexual immoral people like they had to accept the colored people decades ago. But that’s what’s wrong about today’s whites and their mental slaves. Skin colors are God’s creation. Homosexuality and transgenderism is sin.

        You can’t equate the good(God’s holiness) and the evil( infanticide, sexual depravity, etc) and stay Christian. Perv West is too powerful to counter for poor nations. Now the colored Christians have to face the oppressive rich Western pervs instead of racist slave owners because of these white perv supporters. Can’t you be really sorry for your exploitations and atrocities done to the colored people and keep some morality? The West is normal only when it’s Christian. May God’s justice be done on earth.

        • RWH

          The so-called Western “whites” are not interested in a meddling individual who knows nothing of American culture and government but has all sorts of opinions. Maybe a gay person looked at you crooked eyed, but I can’t understand this obsession that you have with the gays to the exclusion of anything else. If America is so disgusting, why are you even participating here? Only a tiny fraction of those who live in the United States interpret Christianity the same way that you do. The vast majority is not interested in objectifying, hating, and persecuting people. In short, give it a rest!

          • Charles

            “”Only a tiny fraction of those who live in the United States interpret Christianity the same way that you do””..

            You’re right. There is a tiny population left in America.. They are actually called Christians.

          • RWH

            Sorry, your little group of “faithful” doesn’t get to interpret what born again means. There are many faithful Christians that consider your element to be extreme. Not all faithful Christians are so obsessed with the gays because they get out in the world and associate with these people through work and family and realize that the ugly stereotypes don’t represent the rank and file. Only those who isolate themselves are able to perpetuate the ugly stereotypes.

          • Charles

            “”Sorry, your little group of “faithful” doesn’t get to interpret what born again means””

            Well, actually it’s God’s Word.

            (Mat 13:10) And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
            (Mat 13:11) He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

            “”There are many faithful Christians that consider your element to be extreme.””

            I’m sure they would consider the faithful extreme. That’s because the unfaithful are of the world. Doesn’t fit their lifestyle. God’s OK with perpetual sin as long as you believe (Lie)… If they truly loved our Lord Jesus Christ they would follow his commandments. Which clearly if you are a practicing sinner you aren’t repentant.

            “”Not all faithful Christians are so obsessed with the gays because they get out in the world and associate with these people through work and family and realize that the ugly stereotypes don’t represent the rank and file. Only those who isolate themselves are able to perpetuate the ugly stereotypes.””

            I don’t recall anyone here being obsessed with homosexuals, other than you, and several other regulars which continually attempt to change the Word of our Lord into a lie. You want to live in sin, go right ahead. God will give you up to that sin. I have nothing in common with unrepentant sinners. I can tell you, it isn’t going to work in God’s World because God says so. Stereotypes? Like what? Like having manifolds of partners? Or that the disease rate among homosexuals is the result of those manifold “Partners”?

          • RWH

            No, you’re giving us YOUR interpretation of God’s Word. There are many good theologians who disagree with you. And I don’t recognize your particular interpretation as being valid. It may bring comfort to you as being superior to us poor slobs, but that is all that it is doing. We see through your self-serving rhetoric.

            One thing I can say though. Some people see the Bible as a love document. Others, like you, like to use it as a club to hurt people. And what is really funny is that you don’t know me, nor what I believe, yet you take on some sort of infallibility to pronounce hell and damnation. And you miss the mark by hundreds of miles. Fundamentalists love to condemn the Pope for his assumed powers of infallibility, yet fundamentalists like you turn around and do the exact same thing. And people wonder why the younger generation has no use for organized religion. Your churches are shrinking just as the other are. The difference is that people like you have your heads in the sand.

          • Charles

            “”No, you’re giving us YOUR interpretation of God’s Word. There are many good theologians who disagree with you. And I don’t recognize your particular interpretation as being valid.”

            Why would I care about what a “Scholar” thinks, let alone you? I have the Holy Spirit teaching me. Best teacher there ever was, or ever will be. As always, the Lord is brilliant. He did everything he said he would do, and much, much more in my case. Eternity isn’t long enough to praise you O Lord!

            “” It may bring comfort to you as being superior to us poor slobs, but that is all that it is doing. We see through your self-serving rhetoric.””

            Well that’s just a sad statement. The only thing that brings me comfort in these discussions are witnessing the truth to the lost (Such as yourself), according to the Word of God. I don’t feel superior to anyone. Not my thing. This is what the Lord has me doing at this point. I certainly feel fortunate that I’ve been given sight, when so many are blind. I am humbled and blessed to be given that free gift. I suspect many other faithful do as well.

            “”One thing I can say though. Some people see the Bible as a love document. Others, like you, like to use it as a club to hurt people. And what is really funny is that you don’t know me, nor what I believe, yet you take on some sort of infallibility to pronounce hell and damnation.””

            Well the Bible isn’t just about love. Much of that nonsense comes from the “Hippie” Jesus crowd. While the Lords love is infinite, the Lord loves, hates, pronounces judgments and gives us his blessed Commandments, and he created everything (You get the idea as I can go on and on about the power of the Lord). The truth of God’s Word is a sword, not a club. It cuts right to the heart of who we are. You’re correct I don’t know you. But if you’re OK with homosexuality, and looking for “Flaws” or inconsistencies in the Bible, I don’t need to. I know a Child of the Living God would never accept that apostasy unless they were unaware, or just deceived. I’ll file the “Infallibility” statement in my “Pope is God on earth” files. I told you the truth according to the Word. Unfortunately, it appears to be a bit much for you at this point.

            “”And you miss the mark by hundreds of miles.””

            Yeah.. Well….. I’m not the one claiming God’s OK with Homosexuality. Or that God claimed a Mustard Seed is the smallest seed on earth. Scripture backs me up. One of the many things I’ve learned about the Lord is if you love the Lord, he’ll be right there backing you up. So…………… Yeah…………… We’ll leave it at that.

            “”Fundamentalists love to condemn the Pope for his assumed powers of infallibility, yet fundamentalists like you turn around and do the exact same thing””

            Well, the “Infallibility” claim is always good for a laugh from a political/pagan organization. I don’t claim infallibility. The Word and My Lord Jesus Christ are infallible. The Lord is the absolute best teacher. He teaches knowledge and discernment, just to name a few. I can say that you definitely lack the former.

            “”And people wonder why the younger generation has no use for organized religion. Your churches are shrinking just as the other are.””

            I can see why the younger generation has no use for an organizational religion. Either do I. There is no “Central” location for the Body of Christ such as the Catholics have established. The Churches are shrinking because the Lord is separating the wheat from the chaff. We were told this would happen. No surprises there.

            “”The difference is that people like you have your heads in the sand.””

            Yet it you who questions the Word of God. It is you who rebel against the Lord and his Commandments. I’m not the one with my head in the sand.

          • RWH

            Unless you can claim that you have received divine anointing as did Elijah or Elisha, your opinions are just as fallible as that of another. You speak as if you have some special authority. I’m here to tell you that you are speaking for yourself. You may claim that the Holy Spirit gave you these messages, but God is not the author of confusion. He is not going to say one thing to someone and another to someone else. So, suffice it to say, you’re just shooting from the hip. Moreover, the arrogance to claim that you speak for God is astounding.

          • Charles

            Look.. You don’t get it. When the Lord calls and you answer, he does the same thing to everyone whom answers the call. No, not everyone has the perfect answer. As I’ve stated, I’m fallible. God isn’t. If he speaks to you, you know it. Everything the Lord has told me has been spot on. He brought me back from the dead, praise the Lord Jesus Christ. Because the place I was going wasn’t heaven. I’ve always received and answer to my questions. May not have been when I wanted it, but usually it’s very quick. I’m sorry you don’t have that relationship with the God. I do, and so do many, many other brothers and sisters. If you want to count arrogance to what the Lord promised (He keeps his promises, unlike most of us), I don’t know what to tell you.

          • RWH

            How charitable for you to claim that I don’t have “that” relationship with God. And your criteria is what? Your own hateful and contemptuous attitude toward those who question your highly limited and opinionated assertions as to what God thinks? I have news for you. You’re nothing special, and most of what God “thinks” has never been written in the Bible.

          • Charles

            Don’t you talk to God? I mean, you obviously have discernment issues. God gives sight to the blind. He heals the sick hearted. He did all of things and whole lot more for me. I could never repay the Lord for what he’s done. Things this world could never accomplish.

            “and most of what God “thinks” has never been written in the Bible.”.

            I guess this explains the discernment issues. You are correct. I’m not special. But the Lord sure is. There are none like him.

          • RWH

            All Christians who are faithful talk to God. They just don’t assume that they are the Vicar of Christ. We already have the Pope, and his presumption has been questioned by everyone outside the Catholic Church. Whether you realize it or not, you’re taking on the same presumption. All you can do is to give your particular spin on what the Truth is. And when they question it, they’re not questioning God but rather your very fallible spin.

          • Charles

            “”They just don’t assume that they are the Vicar of Christ. We already have the Pope, and his presumption has been questioned by everyone outside the Catholic Church.””

            Yep.. Pope is the only one to claim that title. Rightfully so.. They aren’t with God. They are against him.. So.. Makes sense.

            “” Whether you realize it or not, you’re taking on the same presumption. Whether you realize it or not, you’re taking on the same presumption.

            I make no presumptions. I follow the Lord. God gives the gift of sight, blessings, and discernment to those who follow the Lord.. He did everything he’s promised for me..

            “” All you can do is to give your particular spin on what the Truth is.”

            Ok.

            “”And when they question it, they’re not questioning God but rather your very fallible spin.””

            Question it all you want. You are questioning God, you don’t believe the Bible. Clearly you don’t have relationship with God. It really doesn’t change that fact. Hopefully, when the Lord calls you’ll answer next time.

          • RWH

            All faithful Christians talk to God. However, not all faithful Christians agree on their discernment. However, most faithful Christians that I know are not so arrogant to see things as black and white. They agree to disagree without putting others down as having “discernment issues.” And if you think that the Bible contains everything that God thinks, I would say that you have a problem much greater than a “discernment issue.” Even the Gospels state that not everything that Jesus said and did was recorded.

          • Charles

            “”However, most faithful Christians that I know are not so arrogant to see things as black and white. “”

            Real simple.. Something is either a truth, or a lie. 1 or zero.

            “”They agree to disagree without putting others down as having “discernment issues.””

            Nothing wrong with having different views. But the fact is faithful Christians do agree on most things. God isn’t the author of confusion. I’m not putting you down. I’m saying you have issues with understanding the Bible.. When I first started reading the Bible, I had the same issue. When you grow in the Lord, he reveals these things to you. Like the Parable of the Mustard Seed.

            “”And if you think that the Bible contains everything that God thinks, I would say that you have a problem much greater than a “discernment issue.” Even the Gospels state that not everything that Jesus said and did was recorded.””

            God puts everything in Bible we need to know. If you are with the Lord, you will do your best to behave like the Lord. You keep his commandments. He changes you from the inside out. It’s miraculous. 100 percent truth. I was brought back. I had fallen away several years ago.. I’ve seen both sides. Fact is, God was with me the whole time. I just didn’t see it until I came back.

          • RWH

            Charles, Maybe if if you took some classes from a Bible College or a seminary, you would see what I am talking about. I have seen people with your ideas at church association meetings, and I have watched pastors just shake their heads and wonder who’s church they go to. For starters, if the Bible contains everything the God thinks we need to know, we wouldn’t have had the multitude of church splits. For example, the role of the episcopacy was established by St. Ignatius of Antioch at a time when all twelve disciples were still alive. There is no record of any of them disputing Ignatius nor his writings. Yet, my guess is that your church does not have ordained bishops. The first ecumenical council was chaired by James, who is credited with being the Bishop of Jerusalem. All of the churches got together to deliberate important stuff. There was no such thing as an independent Baptist church that felt it didn’t owe any allegiance to anyone above them except Christ. Paul appointed Timothy as a bishop to shepherd a number of churches. Churches didn’t ordain their own leaders. Someone above them did. Do you get my point? Things are not black/white or 1/0 as you think they are.

          • Charles

            “”Charles, Maybe if if you took some classes from a Bible College or a seminary, you would see what I am talking about. I have seen people with your ideas at church association meetings, and I have watched pastors just shake their heads and wonder who’s church they go to. “”

            Believers don’t need a college or seminary to figure out what God is saying. In fact, it’s a horrible idea that does nothing but influence Christian beliefs and ideals of the said institutions. God’s Word is quite enough. God doesn’t require a seminary or college.. That’s man made. It was given to those who understand, to others it has not been given.

            “”For starters, if the Bible contains everything the God thinks we need to know, we wouldn’t have had the multitude of church splits.””

            That’s because Satan infiltrated the Churches a long time ago. So I understand why they can’t come to agreements. That’s on purpose by the way. To create division, just like they are doing in the US. Part of the plan is Divide and conquer.

            “”For example, the role of the episcopacy was established by St. Ignatius of Antioch at a time when all twelve disciples were still alive. There is no record of any of them disputing Ignatius nor his writings. Yet, my guess is that your church does not have ordained bishops.”

            They didn’t endorse him. I told you I don’t go to a brick building. Most are concerned with Pot Luck, or feel good about showing up one day a week at a building thinking that will save them, not God’s Word. Most “Churches” are apostate nowadays .. That’s how they are planning their One World Religion by taking over and bringing together brick buildings, and going ecumenical. You keep looking for man to somehow give you the answers. God is the only one that has the correct answers. Not man. He delivers the answers just like he said he would. If you aren’t Worshiping the Lord, you won’t have the correct answers.

            “”Yet, my guess is that your church does not have ordained bishops. The first ecumenical council was chaired by James, who is credited with being the Bishop of Jerusalem. All of the churches got together to deliberate important stuff. There was no such thing as an independent Baptist church that felt it didn’t owe any allegiance to anyone above them except Christ. Paul appointed Timothy as a bishop to shepherd a number of churches. Churches didn’t ordain their own leaders. “”

            Ahh.. Ignatius of Loyola.. The Jesuit.. Yeah.. Boy there’s an authority figure.. Ever read the oath they take? Their “Loyal”ty to the Pope? Please…

            (1Ti 3:1) This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
            (1Ti 3:2) A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
            (1Ti 3:3) Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
            (1Ti 3:4) One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
            (1Ti 3:5) (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
            (1Ti 3:6) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
            (1Ti 3:7) Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

            Here’s the requirements for a a Bishop.. Doesn’t say anything about being appointed by anyone else. Frankly, you have some very “Catholic” ideas.. I chuckle at how you write “Saint” in front of their names like they are set apart from the common believer. Guess what? Anyone who believes in God is a “Saint”..

            (Rom 8:27) And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

            Even more outrageous was how they canonized “Mother” Teresa as a saint even though she’s been exposed as a false idol worshiping fraud. Makes sense considering the Catholic Church is a fraud.

            “”Someone above them did. Do you get my point? Things are not black/white or 1/0 as you think they are.””

            “Someone Above” them.. Again, a Catholic man made precept of venerating man above God as the authority. God’s Word is the authority, because God IS the authority. They are that black and white. Satan just tries to muddy the waters as something in between. He’s done a fine job at it. He loses that fight in the end though. Amen.

          • RWH

            I don’t know what you are talking about. St. Ignatius of Loyola and Mother Theresa have absolutely nothing to do with any of this. St Ignatius of Antioch was a first-century saint. He was the second bishop of Antioch, Peter the Apostle being the first. He defined the office of bishop at a time when all of the Disciples were still alive. There was no known rebuttal written by any of the Disciples to anything he said. The early writings pretty much defined how the first-century church understood how Christianity operated. This took place about two hundred years before the Council of Ephesus codified what we know as Scripture today.

            It’s unfortunate that you don’t feel that formal training in the Word of God has any use. It is fortunate for Christianity that only a small fraction of the Church of God has your mindset.

          • Charles

            “”I don’t know what you are talking about. St. Ignatius of Loyola””

            Sorry wrong Ignatius. Corrected that. Apostates never the less..

            The bible does speak of these people:

            (2Pe 2:1) But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who secretly will bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction.

            “” Peter the Apostle being the first””

            Wrong. Not biblical. Made up and perpetrated by Catholic Church like a multitude other apostasies they’ve created along the way. Perfect example of doctrines of men, and not God.

            “”It’s unfortunate that you don’t feel that formal training in the Word of God has any use. It is fortunate for Christianity that only a small fraction of the Church of God has your mindset.””

            You’re right. Not many going to make it I’m afraid. They’ve gone the way of the world, instead of the the Way, Truth, and the Life. Jesus Christ.

        • BigHobbit

          Millions of Americans belong to denominations that ordain gay clergy and celebrate same sex marriage.
          YOUR church says that Christianity “condemns homosexuality.” OTHER churches say something else.
          As free American citizens everyone can worship in the church of THEIR choosing, they are not limited to the churches of YOUR choosing.
          You can represent A Christian point of view. You obviously do not represent THE Christian point of view, as the existence of Christians with a different point of view proves.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The Holy Bible condemns the Western pervs. Read it. Yours is not a church; they are New Age social clubs of Sodomites. You guys lost sanity by having everything on a suffering planet. God will punish the Sodomic West for ruining the world’s children.

          • BigHobbit

            I am not a Christian. I am under no obligation to believe as you do. I have a constitutional right to worship as I choose. I am under no more obligation to read the Bible, than you are under obligation to read the Talmud, or the Quran.
            The planet is suffering because of over population and pollution.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            No, the planet is suffering because of Sodomic West. Those who are concerned about over-population should go hung himself first instead of killing the innocent babies. This planet CANNOT be over-populated. It’s polluted because of the West’s Sodomy. You are the one who try to silence the Biblical Christians. Look what you are doing here.

          • Charles

            “”The planet is suffering because of over population and pollution.””

            I laugh ever time I hear that nonsense.. You’ve been well indoctrinated.

          • BigHobbit

            Do you assert that overpopulation is not causing problems?
            Do you assert that pollution is not causing problems?
            Laugh all you like.

          • Charles

            “”Do you assert that overpopulation is not causing problems?””

            No. The entire World population can fit in the State of Texas. We aren’t overcrowded. The elite are causing the problems appearing to “Solve” the problems they themselves create.

            “”Do you assert that pollution is not causing problems?””

            Might want to tell them to quit Chem-trailing then.

            “”Laugh all you like.””

            I wouldn’t say indoctrination by the World is a laughing matter.

          • tedlickb

            R’Amen… 70%, I can live with the smell.

  • InTheChurch

    How many of you are regretting your Trump vote?

    • Dan

      I’m still in “wait and see” mode. Regrettably, any SCOTUS nominee these days is going to have to pass these litmus tests. I know it’s sickening to watch, but the culture has fallen into the sewer. As Tom Clancy once said, a culture that hates smokers but embraces homosexuals has some serious issues.

      • InTheChurch

        I agree. In the past 3 months, trump has set a standard that is pretty low. So, pray he matures and grows up.

        • BigHobbit

          A country where both smoking and homosexuals are not criminalized, nor deprived of rights and freedoms, is a free country, where the government is not allowed to mess with individuals without constitutionally valid reasons.

          • InTheChurch

            Smokers and gays don’t have any rights denied to them. We are all free to pick and choice our destiny. Some want the government to hold their hand during the journey and others do not.

          • BigHobbit

            The right to marry who you choose is no longer being denied to same sex couples, true.
            What are you trying to say about “holding their hand?”

          • InTheChurch

            marriage is not a right, it’s a privilege. They always had their rights. Marriage license is like a drivers license, a privilege. You can live without it.
            Government assistance vs those that want to make on their own.

          • BigHobbit

            You can call marriage whatever you like.
            The Supreme Court has found marriage to be a right in 15 separate decisions that date back to the 1800s. Marriage is a LEGAL right in the USA, and has been for well more than a century.

          • InTheChurch

            yes, I agree. Marriage is marriage. you can define marriage however it pleases you. No objection for me. But, to go with our other talk, right to marry is not the same as a civil or legal right like voting.

          • BigHobbit

            No right is the same as any other right. That isn’t the point.
            The 14th amendment requires that state government have a due process reason to deny ANY right.
            The right in question isn’t required to pass some sort of measurement against other rights. We all have our favorites, and the rights we consider more important than others. There are rights enumerated, literally, in the constitution, say guns, and there are important rights that are not, say privacy.

          • BigHobbit

            “Government assistance vs those that want to make on their own.”
            What is this? How does it relate to what we were discussing?

          • InTheChurch

            going back to my first post. so let’s just forget about this. I like our other talk better. I appreciate the conversation. It’s good to talk with an adult in a calm and grown up fashion.

          • BigHobbit

            Even if you were correct in calling it a privilege, and I do not concede the point, it still would require the government to be fair in who it accords that privilege to, It may not arbitrarily give privilege to some, and withhold it from others without a constitutionally valid reason.
            A state could not, for instance, decide to not issue drivers licenses to Jews, or to women.

          • InTheChurch

            I agree with you on this point. A state needs to give all people the same license, drivers or marriage. But, no need for the Feds to get involved. no court decision is needed. No need to beat drums in protest for something that is not a right but a privilege. If gays were not allowed to vote, I would be protesting with them. I think we are on the same side of this one.
            Let me add to this, I think much debate is coming from who can and can’t marry as opposed to the marriage license. The fight as to if a pastor, judge or clergy can or will not do the service. If a baker or florist can do the cake or flowers. And if a ranch or venue favors one over the other. I think that is where it’s getting heated. We know that a church is protected to deny a same sex marriage but not other venues.

          • BigHobbit

            Well, consumer protection laws that ban pernicious discrimination in public commerce are a different point, indeed.
            Clergy are not in public commerce, so those laws do not apply to them.
            Folks who do business in public commerce have an array of rules, regulations and laws that apply to them, and none of them are optional.
            If you CHOOSE to do business in a given industry, you CHOOSE to be subject to the rules in that industry.
            No business has EVER won, in court, the “right” to violate consumer protection laws that ban pernicious discrimination. Not in any court, not at any level, going back to the 1960s. 100% losing record in court.
            Two things that I see from many of these decisions:
            1. Discrimination in public commerce is a harm. No right includes the right to harm others.
            2. No one is forced to sell stuff to Blacks, Jews, Puerto Ricans or Gays, because no one is forced to sell stuff in public commerce, to begin with.

            The recent case of the NM wedding photographer had a better case, in my opinion, than the florists and bakers – a photographer actually has to attend the wedding, as opposed to the hyperbolic claims of the florists and bakers about their “participation”. And a photographer actually is practicing a recognized visual art form, as opposed to the claims of “artistic expression” of those who put flowers in vases, or apply frosting.
            And the photographer lost in every courtroom, at every level, her final appeal to SCOTUS being denied.

          • InTheChurch

            I agree with you. Many florists and bakers will not win because of laws. I have no issues with that, they need to follow the rules. And they need to know them before opening their doors to the public. Well said Big.
            I would say and have said, those business might have to create cakes and flower arrangements that are general and not custom. They just need to sell what is on the floor. When they say no to custom orders, that is where they get into trouble.

          • BigHobbit

            I don’t imagine that you can buy a wedding cake “off the shelf”. You have to order them in advance.
            I really don’t think that these Anti-Gay businesses would sell the most generic of wedding cakes to a same sex wedding. Most refused the gay customers before they even got around to the actually design of the cakes, or flowers. Their weird ideas about “participation” didn’t hinge on custom vs off the shelf.

          • InTheChurch

            But that is where we are heading with all these lawsuits. To stay open, make off the shelf items or suffer the consequences if you refuse to do a custom item. If you customize for one, you have to for everyone. That will eliminate the participation part of the argument.

          • tedlickb

            Christians receive the exact same permissions. And, custom messaging is not protected in accommodations protections (see the case of Hands on Originals: he won, refusing to print a specific message on shirts for Lexington Pride).

            A tiered cake is just a tiered cake.

          • InTheChurch

            I will check it out. Thank you.

          • BigHobbit

            To be in compliance with the laws, a business has to pick something to sell something, product or service, that it can sell without illegal discrimination.
            If you cannot accept an order for a wedding cake for a same sex marriage, then you cannot sell wedding cakes in public commerce.
            This is where we are at, at least in the state where the consumer protection laws that ban pernicious discrimination in public commerce include sexual orientation.

          • InTheChurch

            And this goes back to what I said a day or two ago. The license is not the issue but all this other stuff that is happening. Anyone can and should obtain a marriage license with no prejudices or problems. pay your fee and get it signed. Bam, instant ball and chain. LOL

          • RWH

            Courts have ruled that marriage is a right.

          • InTheChurch

            what kind of right?
            everyone does have a right to obtain a marriage license, I agree. But getting married is not a right.

          • RWH

            You can also scream that water is not wet as well. What you think is not what is reality. Instead of insisting that 2 plus 2 equals 3, why don’t you do some research into Supreme Court Decisions? You might learn something.

          • Charles

            No such thing as homosexual marriage. Doesn’t exist. An endorsement from the Government isn’t going to change that status either.

          • RWH

            Well, you might not think that there is any such thing, but thousands of Americans have a certificate stating that it exists. And when they fill out joint tax returns, every legal entity recognizes that it exists. When these people go to take out a loan, the bank recognizes that it exists. Your church may not recognize that it exists, but that is irrelevant.

          • Charles

            I don’t go to a Church. Homosexual “Marriage” is irrelevant, and doesn’t exist. Like I said, you can get a paper from the Government that says you are. No matter how hard you try to make it so. It will never be so. That arrangement will never work. Ever.

          • C_Alan_Nault

            Gay is a choice. The newest study in the UK just proves it once again. It has been proven so many times that the science funding community will no longer provide federal funds to see if humans are born gay.
            Gay is a choice.

          • RWH

            There are people out there that will fish around for the one study that agrees with their misconceptions and will ignore the multitude of studies that go in the opposite direction. The reality is exactly the opposite. The UK study that you are referring to has been discredited. But you can go on ignoring all of those studies that you disagree with. It’s what the courts think, And the courts have accepted those studies that say that this is somehow an intrinsic characteristic.

          • C_Alan_Nault

            It was just released….lol…lol
            Keep trollin q u e e r

          • RWH

            The study was released last year, and there was plenty of commentary on it. The study is full of holes. As far as your other comment, it’s typical of the cruel, direct attacks that fundamentalists like to give instead of a logical, reasoned argument. That is one of the biggest reasons why fundamentalism has been so discredited over the decades.

          • C_Alan_Nault

            C_Alan_Nault RWH • 2 days ago
            Gay is a choice. The newest study in the UK just proves it once again. It has been proven so many times that the science funding community will no longer provide federal funds to see if humans are born gay.
            Gay is a choice.

            TRY AGAIN. THIS TIME DO NOT EDIT YOUR REPLY…LOL

          • This style 10/6

            Why then does it bother you so much

          • BigHobbit

            LEGAL marriage includes same sex marriage in all 50 states, and in 23 other countries, including England, Ireland, France, Spain, Canada, Mexico, et al.
            You can SAY they don’t exist. You can SAY that the moon is made of green cheese, too.

    • Robert

      Oh Not nearly as much as I would a Hillary presidency

      • InTheChurch

        True, but we will never know that, so you are regretting your vote now?

  • Theo

    He’s an Episcopalian. All the Christians left that rotten denomination long ago. The more liberal they get, the faster they shrink.

    • InTheChurch

      God has left the building.

    • RWH

      The Catholic Church and the Southern Baptist Convention are pretty conservative. Yet, they are shrinking as well.

      • Charles

        They are shrinking because they are not of God.

        (1Jn 2:19) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

        • RWH

          Sorry, the facts don’t bear this out. A number of good fundamental churches closed. Just within the past four years, four fundamental colleges closed. They include Clearwater College in Clearwater FL, Tennessee Temple College in Chatanooga TN, Northland College in Northland WI, and Pillsbury Baptist Bible College in Owatonna MN. You can check out these four colleges for yourself. One of the chief reasons is the lack of students. I understand that Bob Jones University is also losing students and is downsizing. That school has reneged on its promise to support their faculty through retirement, thereby dropping these poor people on their heads and rendering them into absolute poverty.

          • Charles

            “”Sorry, the facts don’t bear this out. A number of good fundamental churches closed. Just within the past four years, four fundamental colleges closed. They include Clearwater College in Clearwater FL, Tennessee Temple College in Chatanooga TN, Northland College in Northland WI, and Pillsbury Baptist Bible College in Owatonna MN.”

            Ok.. Bible Colleges are a terrible idea anyway. I have no problem with that.

            “”One of the chief reasons is the lack of students. I understand that Bob Jones University is also losing students and is downsizing. That school has reneged on its promise to support their faculty through retirement, thereby dropping these poor people on their heads and rendering them into absolute poverty.””

            Well, I’m sorry to hear they reneged on their promise.. That’s never a good thing I think we could both agree on. If they were truthful in the Word institutions, it would make perfect sense as most aren’t interested in God’s truth anyway. Many of God’s people are monetarily poor, but rich in spirit.

          • RWH

            Yup! And at the time of the Scopes Monkey Trial, hillbillies came out of the mountains and proclaimed proudly that they didn’t know how to read nor write, and they didn’t need to read nor write because they trust in God. You may think that ignorance is a virtue. Many of us do not.

          • Charles

            Obviously, it’s good to know how to read.. Can’t read the Bible without that ability.

          • Robert

            Where is your proof this happened ? Because every christian wants to read the bible for them selves at some time.

          • RWH

            There has been a lot written about the Scopes Monkey Trial. Try doing a Google search first. Then, consult your local library. For starters, illiteracy among the back-woods southern hillbilly was endemic. There were lots of rural schools and lots of kids who couldn’t attend, so they never learned to read nor write.

      • Theo

        You are dense as a post. The rapid decline of the left-wing churches is unprecedented in human history. The Lutherans (ELCA) hold a world record: they lost 500,000 members – yep, a half-million – in the 2 yrs after they began ordaining homosexuals. There has never been a loss like that, ever.

        Once your type takes over a church, the Christians stampede toward the exits.

        The conservative churches will outlast the post-Christian left-wing churches. You and your kind can celebrate in the empty church parking lot.

        • RWH

          If you look up the book of statistics, you will see that the Southern Baptist Convention lost a million people over the last few years. The same holds for a number of other conservative groups. The Independent Baptists are hard to track as they don’t belong to any type of denominational organization, but five leading fundamentalist colleges closed for the lack of students. They are Pillsbury Baptist Bible College, Northland College, Tennessee Temple College, Berea College, and Clearwater College. The student body at Bob Jones University has shrunk so much that it is dismissing faculty and reducing people to part time. You can point fingers at the ELCA, but conservative church groups are in the same pickle.

          • Theo

            Elderly homosexuals are pathetic. You got nothing better to do than look up stories on Christians.

            no wonder gays commit suicide. You got no life at all. Sickening.

          • RWH

            Did they teach you how to write like this in Sunday School? For starters, I’m not that old, and I have never talked about myself with any type of recognizable details other than life experiences and observations. Furthermore, you know nothing about my life, which is rather exciting and fulfilling. I spend my time helping others. Apparently, you like to spend yours by tearing others down. Now, if I am wrong about the hemorrhaging numbers in so-called conservative denominations, all you have to do is look up some facts and prove me wrong. You don’t need to take the lazy route by demeaning others and creating bad blood.

          • Robert

            That fails to consider southern baptist who just choose to voice their Beliefs under the name of nondenominational.

          • RWH

            People change religious affiliations all the time. What counts is the number of bodies that sit in a particular church–or a particular denomination–over a period of a year. You are certainly welcome to consult any almanac or book of statistics. Denominations like to keep track of their membership. For example, back around 1975, Dr. John R. Rice of the Sword of the Lord got bent out of shape because there were only 3000 baptisms in the entire Southern Baptist Convention that year.

        • Robert

          The reason elca declined so fast was there preachers told them they did not need to go to church to worship God.That they could worship him while enjoying other things such as nature .THAT HAPPENED around the same time . So I can see why people might think it was all do to there homosexual stance .

      • Omnicopy

        All the institutional churches are shrinking cause they are all false.

        • RWH

          Organizations have done some extensive research. “False” is not among the reasons. One main reason is the negativity people find in churches. One main reason for church growth is the charismatic leader. S/he attracts a lot of people through a vibrant personality. Often, when these people, leave, churches decline. Jack Hyles First Baptist Church of Hammond, IN is one such example. The church is nowhere as large as it was back in the 1970s. One of my friends worked for the Marietta Baptist Temple back in the 1970s. At that time, the church had thousands. The church is closed today.

          • Omnicopy

            The Baptist denomination is a fundy denomination and it is a fake, false denomination.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The Fundies are the real Christians who follow God faithfully.

  • William of Glynn

    Why would a true Christian try to prevent a same-sex couple from marrying? Doesn’t seem very Christian at all, does it?

    • Peter Leh

      why would a christian break off and continue slavery as the SBC did?keep blacks as close to slavery as possible post 1865? oppose women voting? Equal protection?

      who here will say the Southern baptist is not “christian”? 🙂

    • Reason2012

      Marriage is defined as one man and one woman, and no one’s denying them that right.
      Why do you deny an 18 year old girl the “right” to marry her dad? Why the hypocrisy?

      • Tangent002

        Marriage is not defined as such.

        A father and daughter cohabiting have the same benefits available to them as a married couple, so marriage is superfluous.

        • Reason2012

          A father and daughter cohabiting have the same benefits available to them as a married couple, so marriage is superfluous.

          So there you are giving your reasons to deny an 18 year old girl from marrying her dad. So much for the lie that you’re for “equal rights for all”.

          • Tangent002

            No, I am saying there is no legal reason why a father and daughter should be able to marry each other as they already have the same benefits, rights, and duties afforded by marriage.

      • tedlickb

        You’re out of touch… marriage is no longer defined that way.

  • God’s Law was settled from before creation. We will see who has the final word. Those who reject His Law set themselves in opposition to God Almighty. Hell still has plenty of space for the arrogant and godless.

    • Tangent002

      That oughta keep them durn kids offa your lawn!

      • mikegillespie

        You’re the type who would invite kids inside.

  • DTrevor

    I can only hope that Judge Gorsuch was lying and that he fully intends to return the legal standards of this nation, including the standards of marriage, to those based upon the Bible, just as the Founders intended.

    • Amos Moses

      1. hope he is not lying …. that would not be good ……
      2. just because it is “settled law” …… does not mean it cannot be unsettled …… although i do not see that happening ………….

    • Tangent002

      You hope that a SCOTUS nominee is lying? That’s very disturbing.

      • DTrevor

        Democrats are not really people, so making false statements to them does not really count as lying.

        • Worf

          In islam, it is permissible to lie to infidels if it is to further the power of islam. Your statement seems to reflect the same sort of subversive ideological dishonesty.

        • Yes, that’s how radical Muslims justify lying to non-Muslims. You are agreeing with that mentality. Interesting

    • jkarov

      You do know that the Bible is not law in the USA, right?

      The first English people came here in the 1500’s and 1600s to find new lands and escape the persecution of despot Kings of England and religious mandates

      That’s why the VERY FIRST amendment mandates that for ALL TIME, CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAWS (REGARDING) ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION!

      No court of law in the USA accepts the bible, only the COnstitution and laws based on
      that document are law here.

      If you like theocracies, maybe start your own Christian country, or head over to Iran or Saudi Arabia

      • BigHobbit

        All good points. If you review other posts by DT, I think you will find that he is being sarcastic, or perhaps a bit of an agent provocateur.
        I imagine that we each all fight the good fight in the way we think will get the point across.

    • King Lust

      Well the previous legal standards for marriage were unconstitutional, so those won’t be returning.

    • tedlickb

      Religion is not required for marriage.

      The bible is not required for marriage.

      And you claim to be a christian, yet you hope Gorsuch lied… isn’t lying a sin?

      Fine example of cherry-picking right there!

    • Ambulance Chaser

      The Obergefell decision was based on the 14th Amendment, which was enacted long after all of the Founders were dead. Their intentions are irrelevant in this matter.

  • BigHobbit

    The same judicial system that protects your right to marry who you choose from unconstitutional state and local laws, also protects your right to bear arms from unconstitutional laws.

    Do you really want a government that can mess with who you choose to marry without a constitutionally valid reason?

  • BigHobbit

    Millions of American Christians belong to denominations that ordain gay clergy and celebrate same sex marriage.
    Those Christians have constitutional freedom of worship, too.

  • BigHobbit

    Equal rights and justice to all. True American values.

    • InTheChurch

      I was called a wetback and had to fight for my skin color when I was in grade school, where is the justice for those that hated me? How about the plantation owners? How about the Japanese Americans that got locked up in concentration camps? How about the Native Americans? where is the justice?

      • BigHobbit

        It is a journey. Not everyone gets it. But it is getting better, progress gets made, not withstanding the attempts of the administration of 45, to undo them.

        • InTheChurch

          I will never get justice, blacks will never get justice and many will never get justice. trump will not lift a finger to make that happen. He is only out for his and his friends.

          • BigHobbit

            You may not get “justice” for past wrongs, but that is not really a logical reason to allow injustice in the future. We all can make a contribution.

          • InTheChurch

            Yes, I agree. I have taught my kids to love regardless of what I went through. I told them about it and they are aware that it is out there. But, they must not act like that or retaliate. We must learn from our ugly past. But, it’s hard when Trump makes close to racial and inappropriate comments and his supporters take it a step further. It just reopens the old wound.
            I saw a display in Maryland that said something like America is white and whites needs to report when a color person is around. Or something to that affect. how can we push forward if we are going backwards? That was sad to see.

          • BigHobbit

            Well, the way to push forward is the same as it was in the civil rights era – by being aware of the racism, by pointing it out, and by educating as many as can be educated.
            We aren’t really going backwards, just because of a few boneheads.

          • InTheChurch

            I really hope so Big. I want to think that we can agree to disagree on minor points but we can still sit at a table and eat some amazing tacos de asada. We don’t see skin or race but just good folks that have different ideas and views.

          • BigHobbit

            Yah, I get that.
            But it isn’t as simple as ignoring race and culture. I am an older white man who runs a department of a dozen diverse folks – races, gender, perhaps sexual orientation (that I don’t ask). I try really hard to see folks for their contribution to production, and not on race or gender, but I have to keep my eyes open to the fact that others may not.
            That and endless training from corporate…..

          • InTheChurch

            I understand that. Here at work, same thing, multitude of differences but we need to work together.

      • King Lust

        We haven’t received justice either, just our rights.

        The reality is that history is full of injustice and wrongs.

        You know what though? Eventually you have to grow up and move on.

        You can be upset at slave owners all you want but guess what? There aren’t any slave owners left in this country. They are all either dead or dying of old age.

        So whether it is 10 years from now or 50 years from now, you need to wake up at some point and realize you can’t blame the rest of the world for what some a**hol3s in the past did.

        • InTheChurch

          I have. I’ve taught my kids to not act that way and not retaliate if treated that way. my mistake was their lesson.
          Just a side question, the actions of people in the 70s against the blacks, can those a**holes still ask for forgiveness? Can we blame those people still? They are still alive and many were in positions of power. How about people who act that way today? the KKK and so on. Please tell me that you think racism is dead in America.

    • tedlickb

      R’Amen!

  • Reason2012

    “Equal rights” they say? Yet every single person already had the same right to marry one person of the opposite gender. Don’t want that right? That’s not the same as not HAVING it. Shows “equal rights” is a lie.

    “Equal rights” they say? they deny an 18 year old girl from marrying her “dad” if they both love each other, citing moral reasons to deny that. So much for “equal rights”, again shown to be a lie used to force the perversion agenda on everyone else via laws and lawsuits.

    • Tangent002

      Equal rights means two consensual adults being able to engage in the legal contract of marriage and receive the same rights, benefits, and duties as any other couple.

      Marriage between close blood relations, like a father and daughter, is legally superfluous, as their existing familial relationship already carries most, if not all, of the benefits provided by legal marriage.

      • Reason2012

        Marriage between close blood relations, like a father and daughter, is legally superfluous, as their existing familial relationship already carries most, if not all, of the benefits provided by legal marriage.

        So like I said: you’re hypocritically denying others who love each other the “right” to marry while claiming to be about “equal rights for all”, showing that’s really a lie.

        • Tangent002

          You’re being ridiculous. State laws against close blood relations were meant to prohibit close-blood procreation, which has shown grievous genetic consequences. Equating same-sex marriage to incest is hyperbole at best.

          • Reason2012

            State laws against close blood relations were meant to prohibit close-blood procreation,

            Thank you for unwittingly admitting marriage is about pro-creation. But of course then pretending it has NOTHING to do with procreating when it’s pointed out a configuration of two men also cannot procreate 100% of the time as well.

          • Tangent002

            Procreation laws are archaic. Marriage is not a license to procreate, nor is procreation a requirement to marry. Try again.

          • tedlickb

            Marriage requires no procreation.
            Procreation requires no marriage.

            You don’t really understand the law, do you?

    • Tangent002

      If close blood relations want to make their case for their marriages, let them. That has nothing at all to do with same-sex marriage.

    • King Lust

      “the same right to marry one person of the opposite gender” was never a qualification before 1996.

      It was an unconstitutional qualification imposed on this country by tyrants.

      Now that unconstitutional qualification has reverted back to it’s constitutional form. Meaning marriage is a right for everyone.

      Don’t like it? Then don’t get married.

  • Tangent002

    Same-sex marriage harms no-one, even those offended by homosexuality in general. Same-sex marriage does not pick your pocket nor break your bones.

  • Reason2012

    The LGBT activists will lie that same-gender marriage affects no one.
    Yet businesses who had no problem serving homosexuals are now being sued and charged with crimes if they do not use their business to promote same-gender marriage REGARDLESS of their beliefs, regardless of who asks.
    People are met with hate and death threats if they dare point out they believe marriage is one man and one woman.
    Images and ideas of homosexuality are now forced on everyone else’s kids and grandkids as young as 5 years old in public schools. Those who find out about it and complain are met with “shut up – it’s legal now” (read: same-gender marriage).
    Those into homosexuality are given positions of authority over little boys in more and more ways because, after all, “it’s legal now”.
    So much for the lie that “same-gender marriage affects no one”.

    • Tangent002

      There are three cases of so-called Christian businesses refusing to serve same-sex couples. Three. Across all of the United States. Three.

    • Tangent002

      “Images and ideas of homosexuality are now forced on everyone else’s kids
      and grandkids as young as 5 years old in public schools.”

      Please present your evidence.

    • King Lust

      just like heterosexual activists will like that opposite-gender marriage affects no one.

      And sweetheart if you don’t want to be sued for discrimination then don’t discriminate.

      Easy fix.

    • BigHobbit

      It is the responsibility of every business owner to know and to follow all the rules, regulations and laws that apply to the business they CHOOSE to operate.
      If they didn’t understand the law, then they understand it now.
      If they understand the law, and choose to break it, then they are behaving as criminals.
      If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime.

    • BigHobbit

      If YOUR beliefs prevent YOUR lawful behavior in ONE industry, it is YOUR responsibility to pick ANOTHER industry.
      Or to move to a different state, one where your behavior doesn’t violate community standards and laws.

  • Tangent002

    I commend and celebrate Christian News for allowing this discussion! Thank you.

  • King Lust

    It is 100% settled law.

    Marriage is marriage and it’s here to stay.

    Don’t like it? Then don’t get married.

  • tedlickb

    Without confusing accommodations protections (which those who choose to follow religion receive themselves), can anyone here out of all the naysayers demonstrate any form of harm that you think will stand in court to overturn Obergefell?

    • 0pus

      Stupid ccksucker.

      • tedlickb

        See ma? She’s a big girl now!

        Not very “christ-like”, but hey… that’s what we’ve come to expect from “Christian Love™” these days.

  • Amos Moses

    CHRIST-LESS CONSERVATISM:Christians stand on principles. Conservatives lay down with harlots. Any questions as to which group is running our government?

  • C_Alan_Nault

    Being a gay person is a choice.

    • So, that means that at one time in your life, you were attracted to men and women alike. At what point did you make your choiced? Which choice did you make? I’m sure you see other women as being attractive, so you most see other men in the same light, you just “choose” to love one or the other.

    • BigHobbit

      Being a religious nut-job campaigning to disallow other peoples right to marry who they choose is a choice.

      • C_Alan_Nault

        It is a fake marriage.

        • BigHobbit

          It is either a LEGAL marriage, valid for government – taxes, courts, etc., or it is not. Same sex marriages are legal in all 50 states. And in dozens of other countries, like England, Ireland, France, Canada, Mexico, Spain, Portugal, et al.
          No marriage is invalid just because YOU assert that it is “fake.”

          • C_Alan_Nault

            Had we went by the popular vote then gay marriage would have failed like it did numerous times before in all but a couple places. Even Cali voted no to it.

          • BigHobbit

            Had we went by popular vote then interracial marriage would probably still be illegal.
            We live in a constitutional republic, not a pure democracy.
            The framers of the constitution designed it to protect individual rights from the “tyranny of the majority”, as coined by John Adams.
            Obviously, public opinion has changed in the last 15 years. Now, Americans support legal same sex marriage by over 60%, according to Gallup and Pew, with well more than 75% of those under thirty.
            The very LAST time it was on a ballot, all three states voted for it, and one state voted against a law to ban it.
            It doesn’t matter, as we live in a constitutional republic where individual rights are protected. Where there are checks and balances.

          • C_Alan_Nault

            2016 polls from Pew showed that 63% of people did not approve of gay marriage. California voted against it on the ballot.

          • BigHobbit

            I don’t know where you get YOUR information:
            THIS is what the 2016 Pew report actually shows, per the Pew web site.
            53% FOR same sex marriage.
            http://www (dot) pewforum (dot)org/2016/05/12/changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/

          • BigHobbit

            Back in 2008, in an off year election with poor turnout, CA enacted the unconstitutional PROP8.
            NOW is 9 years later, and polling shows a different attitude.

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    Robots with the Holy Bible and the constitution imput should replace SCOTUS. Machines are more honest than humans.

    • Ya ought to think about that. Robots can do only what they are programmed to do (at least at our current level of technology).

      Laws based on the Bible and the Constitution? Grace, think about that one too. It was be a complete contradiction because the Constitution is a secular document and actually forbids religious input. That is why the Bible cannot legally be taught in public schools. That is why prayers are not allowed in public schools. That is why Intelligent Design is not allowed to be taught in public school science classes.

      Teach can teach your children and advocate for Christianity all you like on private property and any government place that has been designated as a public forum (also allowing humanist/atheist opinions as well). That’s called freedom for all.

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        The Holy Bible alone uphold the truth and human rights and freedom and equality. Western whites are bent on the unconditional sexual immorality. People have rights to live out God’s truth and morality. That’s freedom.

        • I fully understand your zeal, and I agree that people have rights to believe and worship as they wish, but that does not include using the government as a blunt instrument with which to bludgeon the rest of society into abiding by their religious beliefs in morality or any other aspect of their belief.

          In other words, freedom of religion does not trump the right of individuals to follow the dictates of their conscience and live as they wish so long as it hurts no one.

          I go by the single greatest tenet in found in many religions and even in atheism–the one a great many (if not most) Christians and followers of other religions ignore:

          “And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.” Luke 6:31, King James Version;

          Also:

          It is Baha’i: “Ascribe not to any soul that which thou wouldst not have ascribed to thee, and say not that which thou doest not. . . .Blessed is he who preferreth his brother before himself.” Baha’u’llah;

          It is Buddhism: “…a state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?” Samyutta Nikaya v. 353;

          It is Secular Humanism: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you;

          It is Brahmanism: “This is the sum of Dharma (duty): Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you.” Mahabharata, 5:1517;

          It is Islam: “None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself.” Number 13 of Imam Al-Nawawi’s Forty Hadiths;

          It is Judaism: “What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary.” Talmud, Shabbat 31a;

          It is Confucianism: “When one cultivates to the utmost the principles of his nature, and exercises them on the principle of reciprocity, he is not far from the path. What you do not like when done to yourself, do not do to others.” Confucius, Doctrine of the Mean.

          If all the world were to follow this tenet, and this tenet ONLY, can you imagine what the world would be like? This would require that everyone has a strong sense of empathy for all others, especially the less fortunate.

          Freedom of conscience is the right to believe and live as you wish and not insist that others should believe as you.

          Who would disagree with this and what good god would disapprove?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Today’s unbelieving Western whites force Sodomy and transgender perversion upon mankind. Being able to oppose their falsehood is the true human dignity and freedom. The truth is freedom. John 8.

          • Again refusing to address my comments.

            How do you know that your god exists? Can you give an answer that people of other faiths cannot give that would prove their god?

            True love rejoices in the truth.

            So, why do so many Christians and Muslims refuse to accept objective scientific facts? Facts = Truth. Belief = Belief. Belief is not truth unless it is independently and objectively verified.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The creation world clearly indicates that there is the Creator God. The Holy Bible declares that God created everything, every human being sins and must repent of sin, and He has sent His Son Jesus to save us. The Holy Bible alone is right in accordance with all reality and scientific discoveries. All other religions and ideologies contain errors and abuses.

            Atheism is the worst of all. Atheists willfully and knowingly reject the overwhelming facts for the Creator God’s existence and kill the believers and unborn children. Americans don’t know much about raw humanity having only a short history. Pre-christian = illiteracy and barbarism. Post-christian = immorality and slavery to Western pervs. Christianity = truth and light and life.

          • Grace, I’m sorry that you are so full of intolerance, anger and hate.

            No point in explaining further. You mind is as locked as solid as any fundamentalist Muslim. That’s why this world will never see peace while religion exists.

            From my novel:

            The Graveyard of History is glutted with the bleached bones of dead gods, each and every one laid low by the Broadsword of Disbelief.

            And for whom shall the requiem play next? It shall play for thee, dear Yahweh, and for all of our gods du jour. For the forgotten gods of antiquity were once the living gods of today, and the living gods of today shall tomorrow be the forgotten gods of antiquity.

            It must be understood, therefore, that universal empathy, peace, and love can be achieved only through reason, and reason shall reign only when the gravediggers have no more gods to bury.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Atheists kill the most. Americans are naive because they never suffered atheism’s reign but always have been spoiled by the gentle Christians. Spoiled rich kids repay to the good with evil. Typical. Listen to the Christian leaders such as Rev. Franklin Graham in your land to do what is right.

  • Robert

    It’s only settled law for people who think same sex couples can be legitmently married . His so called settled law is a bunch of stinking bull manure.

    • Any law prohibiting SSM would be a religious law and a breach of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

    • BigHobbit

      It is a settled as any other law can possibly be settled.
      To say that same sex marriage is not settled is to render the phrase settled law meaningless.
      It is settled enough for the phrase to be appropriate.

  • Robert

    In the USA The old apostolic Lutheran church which “Sami reindeer raising people belong to ”
    and the old Amish menonite sect are the fastest growing .Due to the large families they have. And they both have shuning practices.

  • I’m suspicious that Gorsuch was less than honest. Saying that it is “settled law” doesn’t mean that he wouldn’t be in favor of overturning it. Besides, laws to prevent same gender marriage are religious forbidden by the Establishment Clause.

    • Big Hobbit

      Senile

      • Do you have anything of substance to add or do you only want to spit out a childish remark and run away?

  • Smoke and mirrors: Too bad Judge Gorsuch doesn’t know what constitutes law.

    Isaiah 33:22 and James 4:12 declare that Yahweh is the exclusive legislator. There are no others, period! Anyone who claims the title of legislator (particularly when his “laws”—whether commandments, statutes, or judgments—are inconsonant with Yahweh’s) is a usurper and is perpetuating the sin begun by Adam and Eve. The same is true for any one of us who would modify Yahweh’s triune law. The same is true for everyone in all three branches of the Constitutional Republic.

    Any legislation (including that found in the Constitution) antithetical to Yahweh’s turns evil to good and good to evil (Isaiah 5:20). When man rejects Yahweh’s standard of morality, it is inevitable he will make legal what Yahweh has made unlawful (e.g., infanticide and sodomy) and make illegal what Yahweh has made lawful (e.g., monotheistic Christianity outside the four walls of church buildings).

    Yahweh is the only lawgiver because as Creator He’s the only one with the authority to determine what is good and evil. His morals as codified in His commandments, statutes, and judgments determine what is right and left. Anything left of His right(eousness) is left, liberal, and ungodly.

    Consequently, Judge Gorshuch is not even a lawyer, but instead a legaler. See blog article “Lawyers vs. Legalers.” Click on my name, then our website. Go to our Blog and search on title.

    Then find out how much you really know about the Constitution as compared to the Bible. Take our 10-question Constitution Survey in the sidebar and receive a complimentary copy of a book that examines the Constitution by the Bible.

    • RWH

      If we lived in a theocracy, you might have a point. However, we live in a constitutional republic where we have the separation of church and state. There is not one law school professor or constitutional lawyer who would agree with your assessment.

      • RWH, thanks for responding.

        Oh, but we do live in a theocracy. Politics cannot be severed from religion anymore than morality can be severed from legislation. One’s political persuasion is a reflection of his morality (or, more often than not, his immorality) and one’s morals determines his religion, which in turn determines one’s god. Thus, applied politics is applied religion and applied religion is applied politics.

        When one understands that idolatry is not so much about statues as it is statutes, it becomes clear that all governments are theocratic, serving either the true God or some false god, demonstrated by what laws they keep and
        consider the supreme law of the land.

        Question: Were the governments in the Old Testament under the god Baal (or any other false god named in the Old Testament) theocracies?
        Answer: Of course, they were.

        Question: Was Baal (or any other god named in the Bible) real or were they merely ancient forms of We the People?
        Answer: Merely ancient forms of We the People

        Consequently:

        “…There is no escaping theocracy. A government’s laws reflect its morality, and the source of that morality (or, more often than not, immorality) is its god. It is never a question of theocracy or no theocracy, but whose theocracy. The American people, by way of their elected officials, are the source of the Constitutional Republic’s laws. Therefore, the Constitutional Republic’s god is WE THE PEOPLE.

        “People recoil at the idea of a theocracy’s morality being forced upon them, but because all governments are theocracies, someone’s morality is always being enforced. This is an inevitability of government. The question is which god, theocracy, laws, and morality will we choose to live under?…”

        For more, see online Chapter 3 “The Preamble: WE THE PEOPLE vs. YAHWEH” of “Bible Law vs. the United States Constitution: The Christian Perspective.” Click on my name, then our website. Go to our Online Books page, click on the top entry, and scroll down to Chapter 3.

      • Democracies and Republics are just two different forms of man doing what is right in his own eyes, per Judges 21:25. Judges 21:25 is what today is commonly known as humanism, aka We the Peopleism.

        “…Constitutionalists insist the United States government is a republic, not a democracy, but they never stop to consider that the two are virtually the same regarding sovereignty.

        “Christian Constitutionalists further insist republics are Biblical. However, because republics (like democracies) rely upon the majority vote of the people [whether from the general populace or an Electoral College] for the selection of their leaders, rather than upon Yahweh’s choice (as per Deuteronomy 17:15), republics are not anymore Biblical than are democracies. Both democracies and republics culminate in a government of, by, and for the
        people rather than a government of, by, and for Yahweh. The same is true with other issues voted upon by the people: ultimately the majority’s will is exalted over Yahweh’s will.

        “As demonstrated in Chapter 3, both republican and Christian governments are ultimately theocracies. As a result, they are incompatible and hostile to each other. A republic looks to the people as its sovereign; a Christian theocracy looks to Yahweh. The very definition of a sovereign, or supreme ruler, excludes simultaneous sovereigns.”

        See Chapter 7 “Article 4: Republic vs. Theocracy” of “Bible Law vs.
        the United States Constitution: The Christian Perspective.”

  • BigHobbit

    Still no constitutionally valid reason to deny the right of marriage to same sex couples.
    None that haven’t already failed in dozens of federal court rooms from coast to coast.

  • BigHobbit

    Equal rights and justice for all. True American values.
    Even for those that your pastor thinks are unworthy.

  • Reason2012

    Every single person already had the same right: if you want to, you can marry one person of the opposite gender. No one was denied the right.
    But LGBT activists who defend_islam even when 50 LGBT were slaughtered will lie and pretend “equal rights being denied!” or “you’re denying some people marriage”.
    Behold the deception of these_islam activists pretending to be LGBT activists.

  • Lumen

    I’ve always wondered why the majority of Christians so adamantly protest against same-sex marriage, but not against no-fault divorce?