‘Church of Sweden’ Aiming to Use ‘More Inclusive’ Language When Referring to God

(Western Journal) The Church of Sweden acted Thursday to urge its clergy to stop using solely masculine references to God by adopting a new handbook governing all forms of worship. The handbook makes significant changes to how priests are encouraged to talk about God.

“We talk about Jesus Christ, but in a few places we have changed it to say ‘God’ instead of ‘he,’” Church of Sweden spokesperson Sofija Pedersen Videke told The U.K. Telegraph. “We have some prayer options that are more gender-neutral than others.”

“A wide majority of people decided on the book,” she claimed. The handbook’s stated goal, according to the Swedish TT News Agency, is for language referring to God to be “more inclusive.”

Videke later clarified to The Local Sweden that the book does not rule out the use of the masculine pronoun to refer to God, but gives churches and priests more options if they do not wish to do so.

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  • Robin Egg

    Utter blasphemy……

    Jesus came to earth as a MAN………He is a MAN and will remain a MAN.

    Jesus prayed to our HEAVENLY FATHER…….not a mother, not a person, FATHER

    Another denomination turned apostate.

    • mr goody two shoes

      Real lutherans know that the only authority in any lutheran church be it state run or not is the bible. LUTHERANS even In that liberal denomination can let what the priest says go in one ear and out the other and reject it if the priest can not convince them with appropriate Bible passages.God’s not going to say it’s that denominations fault that you didn’t believe his bible he going to say it’s your own fault, By the way New testament and psalms of the Evangelical Heritage Version of the Bible is now on bible gateway for all to enjoy my pastor said ..He also said they Just finished translation of the old testament to ,lso that portion of the Holy Bible will be put on bible gate way later.

      • Robin Egg

        2 Corinthians 6:14-17

        14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship
        hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light
        with darkness?

        15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

        16 And
        what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple
        of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in
        them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

        17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

        I don’t know which Lutheran denomination you belong to but I know there are several that have broken from ELCA here in America that continue in the original faith. I, myself, was raised in the Lutheran church when it was called LCA before it merged with two others which became known as ELCA. They ordain women, lesbians, homosexuals, and have abortion rights written into their doctrine. This is apostasy. From the looks of the church in Sweden, they are falling into the same pit.

        • Robin Egg

          And it does matter if you remain in that fallen church according to the scripture I posted above: Vs. 17 Wherefore COME OUT from among them, and be ye SEPARATE, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

          • mr goody two shoes

            Yes and God also says this “is ” my body he does not say it represents yet look how many people stay in those churchs. Are they all doomed to?

          • Robin Egg

            Again, I refer you to above scripture. This is what God’s Word says.

          • mr goody two shoes

            That is correct but only a few protestants or church of sweden do leave for the above reason. Actually the Evangelical Heritage version on bible gate way is even clearer

        • mr goody two shoes

          Robin egg. We don’t know if using gender neutral language destroys faith in Jesus.

          • Robin Egg

            Did you read the article? If you are okay with God, Holy Trinity, Father and Mother, Son – Sister and Brother, and
            Spirit – Lifeguard and Inspirator, lead us to your depths of wealth,
            wisdom and knowledge,” then that is your business. We are warned not to change God’s Word. Matthew 15:14 states ” Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. Why would any true believer in Christ choose to follow man rather than God.

    • HpO

      You’re the go-to person, then.

      Why, in fact, is God the Father and not the Mother; and Jesus the Son of God and not the Daughter of God? Do you really know? No rationalizations, please, just scriptures and your understanding.

  • Robin Egg

    The Missouri Synod is one of the conservative groups. The ELCA is the one who ordains homosexuals.

    • Tony Demarcus, Ph.D., D.D.

      Robin Egg:
      That may be true, but there are many issues with this one as well. They aren’t true to the Christian Bible either. As a REAL Bible-believing Christian, I do not endorse Lutheran theology, you will find WELS Lutherans to be much more true to the Bible than the “anything goes” kumbayah-singing Missouri Synod of the Lutheran.

  • HpO

    Which begs the question for us born-again Christians around here: Why, in fact, is God the Father and not the Mother; and Jesus the Son of God and not the Daughter of God? No rationalizations, please, just scriptures and your understanding. Any takers? Spoil Alert: I don’t have all the answers and at times that’s why I’m asking. Thanks.

    • ppp777

      Simple , scripture says so .

      • HpO

        Excellent, you’ve found it! Give it to me, then, please. “Scripture says so” where exactly? Which “scripture says so” as to why, in fact, is God the Father and not the Mother; and Jesus the Son of God and not the Daughter of God?

        • ppp777

          It would give you no more reason then for me to say I am a man [ which I am ] then a woman which I’m not , there is no reason its just a fact , the question should never even enter a Christians head , you have been watching to much television

          • HpO

            Translation in Swedish:

            No scripture today, Boss, says ppppppppp7777777777 help! my keyboard gone awrrrrrrrrryyyyy

          • ppp777

            Yeah right .

  • ThroatwobblerMangrove

    If it calls itself s Christian church, then it probably is one.

    • Amos Moses – He>i

      “If it calls itself s Christian church, then it probably is one.”

      If it calls itself a jelly donut and has powdered sugar on it but it is really a dung heap then that does not make it anything but a dung heap … no matter what they call themselves …………..

      • I saw what you did there…both accurate and funny.

        • Amos Moses – He>i

          Luke
          14:34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
          14:35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear

          in other words ….. it aint even fit to be dung …

      • ThroatwobblerMangrove

        I would believe a person who tells me they are a Christian far sooner than I would believe your opinion of whether they are one. For one thing, they know themselves and you don’t. For another, you probably believe there about about 5 true Scotsmen, sorry I mean Christians, on earth, period.

        • Amos Moses – He>i

          nope ….. again ….. calling yourself something you are not does not alter reality ……. calling yourself a “trans-whatever” …… does not change your DNA or reality ….. and the truth is many make up a god in their own mind and their own idea of what god is …. and name it Jesus …… DOES NOT MAKE IT SO …………..

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            So what makes it so? For Amos Moses to bestow true Christianhood on them?

            I thought we were supposed to know them by their fruits. If they are decent human beings who don’t hate homosexuals, transgenders, feminists, liberals and God knows what else like you do Amos, they’re good Christians in my book. But more importantly, good human beings.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Luke
            14:34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
            14:35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear

            in other words ….. it aint even fit to be dung … and that is their fruit …… not fit for human consumption …………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            But you think everything is dung, so who’d listen to you? Except Checkmate who is even higher on the hate scale than you are.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … scripture describes what is going on ….. i did not write it ….. and your trying to make it about me ….. is your error ………..

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            They follow scripture, and you still call them false Christians. You can’t win this one. If it’s going to be your word against theirs, I go with theirs.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “They DO NOT follow scripture, and you still call them false Christians.”

            there, i fixed that for you ………..

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Nope. What you have there is good old-fashioned Christian snobbery. You didn’t learn scripture more perfectly than anyone else. Fail.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            sorry … what you have is YOUR uninformed opinion of what makes a christian ….. there are certain DOCTRINES that are the ESSENTIALS ……and one of them is ….. not DENYING who and what the FATHER IS ….. is an ESSENTIAL ….. and not holding that out as what GOD IS …. is DENYING WHO GOD IS …….. and that is just IDOLATRY ……… and i really do not care what you want to label it …. it makes the person or persons or church holding out that IDOLATRY …… not christian ……….. and i do not care what they label themselves as ….. idolatry is IDOLATRY …..

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            We aren’t talking about me, Amos. We are talking about other Christians you deem to be false. Firstly, no one cares if you deem them false because it’s only your opinion, and you are not a welcoming Christian, you are a condemning one. They don’t deny who God is. If they did, they wouldn’t even CALL themselves Christians. Like anything else though, it’s far more their business than it is yours.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            yes we are … we are talking about YOUR OPINION of what is and is not a christian …….. and it is in ERROR ….. “They don’t deny who God is.” …… when they say God is somehow “gender neutral” and not as He has described Himself ….. then YES ….. they MOST ASSUREDLY ARE ………….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            It is a very interesting understanding you have of Christianity. You think God chose you to be a Christian, and you further seem to think he elected you to walk around telling people that they’re not real Christians.

            Once again, this has nothing to do with me and never did. This is all on you, and is about YOUR opinions. Not mine – I have no opinion, if people tell me they are Christians I take them at their word. I have no reason to do otherwise. Neither do you.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “You think God chose you to be a Christian, and you further seem to think he elected you to walk around telling people that they’re not real Christians.”

            He has Elected all who follow Him …. and not so coincidently ….. all those who do not ….. and telling a lie about who God is violates the first four commandments ….. and is a disqualification…. saying God is gender neutral is calling Him a liar, and is idolatry and is blasphemy, and is dismissing who He has said He is ……… so you are absolutely correct ….. they are not real christians ….. they are pagan idolaters and blasphemers …….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            No, sorry. No matter how you keep trying to present this, it ends up the same, with you being self-appointed judge, jury and executioner merely because you disapprove of some practice other Christians see no problem with.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope …. God has appointed Himself the judge of who in HIS creation is and is not …… and HE has told the WORLD what that is ….. and it is WRITTEN DOWN …… and it is SCRIPTURE ….. and you have no excuse ………..

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            And you have one interpretation of scripture, and everyone else has an interpretation that is slightly different. No one knows which one is exactly right. Once again, this comes down to you believing your opinion is superior to everyone else’s.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            no, no, no ….. there is GODS interpretation ….. and we have NONE ….. anything outside of that is ERROR ……. and all you have is ERROR …………….. as you do not even have scripture …….. you have given up your ability and right to judge who is and who is not ……

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Do you not know what interpretation means?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            do you know it does not matter what YOUR INTERPRETATION is …….. FYI ….. the only “interpretation” that has any weight is GODS ….. and when we allow the scriptures to speak FOR ITSELF …… then that is Gods interpretation ….. that is exegesis ….. what you advocate is isegesis …. we do not bring our theology to the text and then try to justify it ….. we obtain it FROM THE TEXT ……… because the text is what we have … NOT what we add …… and we are FORBIDDEN from adding to the text …………..

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Um…no, that’s not what it means.

            You know what the KJV is? It’s a translation, yes, but that also makes it an INTERPRETATION.

            We have no choice when we read it, or read ANYTHING, but to interpret it. It just means use our brain to understand it.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            um …. YES …. that is what it means ….. again …. NOT your modern “interprtation” of what you want it to mean ……. and TRANSLATION ….. is NOT INTERPRETATION …… CATEGORY ERROR ….. and why you are always in ERROR …………..

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Look, do you or do you not possess a dictionary? Look up INTERPRET.

          • Bob Johnson

            So why are all those people at the UN who translate speeches called interpreters?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            they are properly called TRANSLATORS …………..

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            right … so when your kids decide they get to decide what you meant when you told them certain things ….. you are good with that …. because what YOU meant is garbage and what THEY “interpret” is right ………… do you even consider what you are saying and its application ….. FYI ….. God is not inclusive ….. He is EXCLUSIVE …..

          • Amen.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            The dictionary is a wonderful thing, Lady Checkmate. Grab one and look up the word “interpret” and you can see for yourself that he’s got the meaning entirely wrong. We wouldn’t have 35 thousand denominations of Christianity if everyone read scripture exactly the same way.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            “You just can’t look at the moon too long.”

            You can read that sentence and interpret it two different ways. You can take it to mean that you should not look at the moon too long, or that you are being urged to look at the moon as long as you want to.

            Neither interpretation is wrong. What is the meaning meant? Only the person who posed the question knows.

            And that’s how it is with the Bible. Different Christians have different understandings on certain subject based on the words of the Bible. You may be correct that only one meaning is the correct one, but how can you possibly be arrogant enough to claim to know which one it is?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope ….. wrong … when you told your kids what you told them …. you did not mean what you said so that they could decide later what you meant ….. you meant what you said when you said it ….. and they do not get to decide later that you meant something different …… unless you are an idiot …………….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            But this isn’t about what you meant. The whole thing you are missing is HOW YOUR MESSAGE gets interpreted. It might get MISinterpreted along the way. You might be very clear on what you mean, and I’m sure you are. But language isn’t always as precise as we want it to be and things get misunderstood. This isn’t about changing the meaning. It’s about getting the message clearly across. And you fail on that one every time.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope …. The whole thing you are missing is …. I DO NOT CARE ……. my message is the SCRIPTURE ….. and the “interpretation” is what God said it is ….. and what He said is written down ….. and we do not get to add to it nor do we get to subtract from it ….. we do not get to use weasel words to get around it ….. we do not get to soften it so others can accept it …… and it is not up to the SOPHISTRY of “our interpretation” …. and while you and i may have some difficulty in understanding it ….. GOD DOES NOT have any such difficulty ….. and our “interpretation” is not an excuse for saying it says something different than what He said ……..

            and when you tell your kids they have to home in the house by a certain time in the evening …. that does not mean “by interpretation” that at 5 minutes after that time ….. they are free to leave and go about their business in the middle of the night …….. again …. unless you are an idiot ……..

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            You exhaust the patience of even the most patient person, but I’ll say this one more time. You do NOT understand what “interpret” means. It does mean to add, subtract or change. It does NOT. What it means is, and I’m using direct definitions from the dictionary now:

            – to give or provide the meaning of; explain; explicate; elucidate:
            – to interpret the hidden meaning of a parable.
            – to construe or understand in a particular way:
            – to interpret a reply as favorable.
            – to bring out the meaning of (a dramatic work, music, etc.) by performance or execution.
            – to perform or render (a song, role in a play, etc.) according to one’s own understanding or sensitivity:
            – to translate orally.

            Notice NOTHING in all the many possible definitions involves changing anything. It is strictly about understanding, and nothing more.

            As for God, you’re saying God’s perfect and nothing needs to be clarified. Maybe not from God’s perspective, but it’s US who are required to understand it correctly and sometimes words alone are not enough to do that and there can be some confusion or things getting lost in translation. That’s nobody’s fault, and it’s not something anyone can do anything about, but nobody can say in situations like this that they are 100% right or wrong because it is not possible to know.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … YOU do not understand what it means TO SCRIPTURE ….. and YOUR INTERPRETATION ……. means NOTHING ….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            At this point it appears you are not even INTERESTED in having a coherent argument.

            This has nothing to do with scripture. No one is arguing scripture.

            This has to do with how we come to UNDERSTAND something and how it is spoken to us, and how it is possible to come to several different conclusions.

            Once again, consider this example.

            “You can’t look at the sun too long.”

            That means two things. It means you should not look at the sun too long. It also means it’s not possible to look at the sun long enough. They have opposite meanings, but the words do not change and can be INTERPRETED either way. So a person isn’t wrong to believe it means that you shouldn’t look at the sun too long, and the other person isn’t wrong to believe there’s no limit to how long you can look at the sun. There is confusion inherent in the original statement which has not been clarified.

            That’s EXACTLY how it is with SOME scripture.

            And if you don’t understand that, there’s no hope for you to continue discussing it.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … i am not interested in your SOPHISTRY and CASUISTRY as YOUR arguments have nothing to do with SCRIPTURE and it proper reading ….. as you are NOT A BELIEVER ….. so why do you think your opinion on the matter ….. MATTERS …………..

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            I have told you no fewer than ten times that I’m not disputing scripture. I just don’t know why this is so hard for you to understand.

            What you seem not to be able to believe is that there is a process where when you read scripture, your brain makes sense of what it’s reading and that is called an interpretation. And you also don’t seem to understand that no matter how perfect the original words are, the way we understand words isn’t the same because we are different people. And so the original source doesn’t always get through to people.

            Ever play “telephone” as a kid, where you whisper one thing to someone, and they whisper it to someone, and after about 15 whispers the message gets completely scrambled? If you don’t understand that illustration, then talking to you is pointless.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and i have told you time and again …… i do not care …… because you are a liar ….. and what you are doing ….. DOES DISPUTE THE SCRIPTURES ………… and your OPINION on the matter ….. DOES NOT MATTER …….. you are not a believer …………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Oh, well, if you’re just interested in calling names and not having a productive discussion, this is over. I haven’t disputed scriptures – not even once – but tried to show you that just because two Christians have a different understanding doesn’t make one right and the other wrong, necessarily, and no one needs to be a “false Christian” because of it.

            I have told you over and over my beliefs are not what is on trial here, but your faulty reasoning.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you are a liar because you lie … that is not name calling …. that is what you are …..

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            I haven’t lied once, you keep turning the conversation to irrelevant matters. This is about your instance people are false Christians when you don’t even accept the possibility that they learned things differently.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you lie CONTINUALLY ……… and it IS a RELEVANT matter ….. as you are a liar ………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            I don’t lie, the problem is you don’t read. Or you have the worst reading comprehension skills I have ever seen in my entire life.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            YOUR opinion of what scripture says in IRRELEVANT ….. MY opinion of what scripture says in IRRELEVANT ….. THEIR opinion of what scripture says in IRRELEVANT ….. scripture is NOT OPEN to OUR OPINIONS …… i DO NOT CARE WHAT THEY LEARNED if it is FALSE ………..

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            I gave no opinion of scripture.
            I am not interested in your opinion of scripture.
            This entire conversation has nothing to do with scripture.

            You read nothing, and you are clearly not interested in discussion.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “This entire conversation has nothing to do with scripture.”

            then you are free to talk to someone else …… BUT …. YOU SAID …… “What you seem not to be able to believe is that there is a process where when you read scripture, your brain makes sense of what it’s reading and that is called an interpretation.” ….. but now you want to say ….. “This entire conversation has nothing to do with scripture.” …..

            and AGAIN …… YOU ARE A LIAR ……………….. and you ALSO SAID …..
            “I haven’t lied once, you keep turning the conversation to irrelevant matters.” ….. and guess what ….. YOU ARE A LIAR …… AGAIN ……….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            My initial statement is correct. The scripture itself is not the issue. The understanding of the scripture is the issue. It changes depending on who hears it. So again, I didn’t lie, you simply didn’t understand.

            You don’t listen to me, you don’t listen to anyone. You aren’t here to have an exchange of ideas, you are here to proselytize, and anything anyone else says to you you either “nope” away or run off with your ears plugged.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            sure … whatever ………

          • ppp777

            Amen to that , those words need to be screamed from the roof tops these days .

          • MCrow

            Let me guess: God’s interpretation is your interpretation?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            let me guess …. you were watching Yu-Gi-Oh ………….

          • MCrow

            Evasion and refusal to answer the question.

            I never understood the appeal of the show, so no.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            right …. you cant explain your worldview to any satisfactory level … you CONTINUALLY make attacks on a person you say does not exist ….. but i am “evading” the question …… and the only reason YOU are doing that is ….. YOU HAVE NO ANSWERS ……….

            and it was not evasion …. it was DISMISSAL of your feeble attempts ………

          • MCrow

            Oh, I believe you exist, despite at times wishing you were a parody. No, I just continue to find it interesting that when *you* specifically are accused of something, you fall back to *God* not being able to be wrong.

          • Bob Johnson

            And God spoke to Moses in Hebrew. What He said to Jesus we only know from the writing in Greek. Unless you speak fluent Hebrew and ancient Greek and have access to those manuscripts, all you have is interpretation.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ACTUALLY ….. we do have access to those autographs ……….. and yes God spoke to Moses in the language all of Israel understood ….. AUDIBLY ……. and the thing is …. Hebrew and Greek letters are also numbers …. so you can actually check if it was copied correctly by adding up the letters …. and if the numbers do not come out right then they knew there was error ….. so do it over …… and NO …. we do NOT only have “OUR interpretation” ….. we can allow the text to SPEAK FOR ITSELF instead of ADDING TO IT or SUBTRACTING from it ……… and that is what is properly done ………..

          • ppp777

            No you have a translation , English [ K J V ]

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            FYI ….. No matter how you keep trying to present this, it ends up the same, with you being self-appointed judge, jury and determiner of who is and who is not …….. and you have no authority ….. you have no knowledge and you have demonstrated your inability to discern the truth …………

  • mr goody two shoes

    The true church is True Believers that only God can see

    • Tony Demarcus, Ph.D., D.D.

      mr good two shoes:

      You’re correct that only Jesus knows who is truly Saved and who isn’t. But we can also know who is not Saved when we judge them by the Bible. There are those that are not Biblical in error. In this case, they’ll correct their conduct once rebuked. Then there are false Christians, those in the name only, who will not change their ways. Take as an example the verse 1 Tim 2:12, which commands females to be silent on church property. If you go into a church where a woman is allowed to speak or sing, and you rebuke them using this verse (and others within the Christian Bible), then a true Christian church will change its ways and will make sure that woman is silent, as the scripture commands. The counterfeit church will make excuses or bring up assorted Biblical fantasies to excuse such unChristian conduct.

      • Trilemma

        How can 1 Tim 2:12 be telling women to be silent on church property when the church didn’t have property back then. In 1 Corinthians 11:5, Paul says women should cover their heads when prophesying in church so clearly they don’t have to be totally silent. What would you do if your wife spoke in church?

        • Tony Demarcus, Ph.D., D.D.

          Sodomite:

          How can 1 Tim 2:12 be telling women to be silent on church property? Like so: “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.” 1 Tim 2:11-12

          Relative to 1 Cor 11:5, the Christian Bible says, to wit: “But
          every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered
          dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.” It says nothing about proselytizing! Read the CHRISTIAN Bible!

          • Trilemma

            True, neither verse says anything about proselytizing. They don’t say anything about “church property” either. How did the Christians in the first century know when they were one “church property?” Obviously a woman can speak in church in order to prophesieth.

      • vicnicholls

        Where do you get sing? The example Paul uses was asking questions, taking over leadership. Never included singing. I go to a very strict Bible based church and women singing is not a problem.

        • Tony Demarcus, Ph.D., D.D.

          vicnicholls:

          The Bible says that the woman is to be silence. Singing isn’t silence.

          • vicnicholls

            It is also not in line with the Biblical examples Paul used. I stated that before and you didn’t answer it. I’ve never heard of any Bible believing group that said womens’ singing was a part of that commandment. Women have to give their testimonies in front of the church before they are allowed to be members (with or without a husband). I don’t know of any guy who would allow a family to be a member when they can’t tell if someone is equally yoked and a Christian family without the wife speaking her testimony. Give me who agrees with your argument?

          • Tony Demarcus, Ph.D., D.D.

            vicnicholls:

            The Christian Bible clearly states the following, to wit: “But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.” 1 Tim 2:12 Bible says so, so what are we to do? Ignore the Bible, and allow the female to break silence in the assembly? As to reason why it is to be so, the rest of 1 Timothy provides the explanation. it is because the man is above the woman–not equal to her. Relative to being yoked together with unbelievers, what does that have to do with the lower status (Eph. 5:23, etc.) of the woman?

          • vicnicholls

            Eph. 5:19
            Col. 3:16
            Romans 10:9-10 she couldn’t confess Christ before the assembly prior to baptism
            Paul was addressing a problem in Corinth, not all women in 1 Cor. 14:35.
            We know that:
            Not all of the Corinthian women had husbands (1 Cor. 7) or were married to Christian men (same source). Some of those women could have had husbands who couldn’t answer the questions because they were not as far as long in their walk as their wives (I Cor. chapters 1 & 3).

            The issue was of dominating or leading men. If a woman is just singing with everyone else, how can you prove domination or leading men? You can’t.

            How else do you get Titus 2:3-5 and Acts 18:25-26? Women can obviously have roles.

            How do you explain I Cor. 11 where Paul said women COULD pray and prophesy in church with the right clothing? Sort of makes sense they can sing in church along with others. The Bible wouldn’t be consistent if they said they couldn’t talk but then says they can pray and prophesy in the same letter.

            James Hurley said “there is no intention that the first should speak no more in the worship service. He or she may certainly sing hymns, pray, etc…. Paul left it to his readers to grasp the context” (Man and Woman in Biblical Perspective [Zondervan, 1981], 190).

            I’d check to see that it says “LEARN” in silence. Doesn’t indicate anywhere singing is a part of that.

            1 Cor 14:34-37 also says for women to ask their wives, but what about widows and single women? There is always that possibility because Paul was all about singleness as a gift from God. So obviously, he wasn’t counting every circumstance, and the book is about addressing problems in the church at Corinth.

            So this would indicate that since they can’t speak at a business meeting in church, they can’t be members of a church if they are widowed, single. They wouldn’t be able to give a public profession of faith. Since when and where in the Bible does it say only married people are a part of the church?

            So women can’t praise God in the assembly of the church?

            Col 3:16 – women can teach and admonish by singing.
            Matt 10:32 – they can confess their faith publically.

            Participating and leading are 2 different things. Learning is another issue. Being a part of the congregation, Paul indicated women were a part when he indicated the previous info I have.

            You have a DD and you can’t correlate together all the passages of the Bible in what the context is?? My hermaneutics teacher did a good job of making sure we did that.

          • Tony Demarcus, Ph.D., D.D.

            vicnicholls:

            You ask some good questions, and you will receive Godly-inspired answers relative to what is contained within our Christian Bible. Now remember that the Christian goes by the Bible, and not by some “traditional” presuppositions about the Bible when examining the directives within.

            One of the principles by which we examine the Bible is what the esteemed Pastor JJ Hunter called “what came first”. In this regard where we have something that appears contrarian, we look towards the directive that came later, and not at the previous instances which we only use for historical reference. Take for example the Jew’s laws for kosher food. Since these were cancelled out later, we no longer need to follow them, in the name of Jesus. Relative to the verses you cite above, as found with Col., Matt., Titus and Romans, we likewise use the directives from the later books of Bible, e.g. Timothy. Bottom line is that some things may have been permitted by Jesus at some point, but then an adjustment was made, and from then on, we’re just to follow the appropriate directive, and not the one that was called off.

            Also note that in 1 Cor. 11 Jesus (via Paul) didn’t tell us that women are to be prophesying within churches! Relative to prayer, the female may indeed pray in church–but silently!

            You say, “The issue was of dominating or leading men.” This is a common legend that came from Cathlics. Nowhere in the Bible does it state that this was an issue. Do correct me if I’m wrong. There are those that like to make it out to be a rebuke to some female rebellion at Corinth, but there’s no indication that such ever happened within our Christian Bible. Rather, Jesus (again via Paul) tells the female to learn in silence, with subjection, to not even ask a question at the church, and overall be modest, “with shamefacedness and sobriety”. Why? The reason given is not that of womanly rebellion, but of her place. To wit: “For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” 1 Tim 13-14

          • vicnicholls

            Who is JJ Hunter? Certainly not on a level with recognized guys like John MacArthur, RC Sproul, etc. Is this the guy John J Hunter who’s son committed suicide? Got bumped out of his church and then sued them? I Corinthians 6 says you don’t sue a brother. Now at least we know the doctrine is faulty. Thank you.

            The Bible btw, NEVER did that. If what came first was the OT, then the NT is wrong. Seriously, find someone who you can learn from because the Bible never contradicts itself, it only affirms itself.

          • Tony Demarcus, Ph.D., D.D.

            vicnicholls:

            Not that JJ Hunter. The Pastor JJ Hunter of the True Christian Church of Jesus, which is now led by his son, JJ Hunter, Jr. Though it is a small church in Kansas–but then hardly any real Christian church is big–some may remember Pastor Hunter’s rebuke of Jerry Falwell back in the 80’s or so. In fact, it was Pastor Hunter that started the Christian crusade against abortionism, that Falwell and his band of lieberals readily jumped on and presented it as their own. Only they couldn’t even managed a proper Biblical justification for it because that wouldn’t be popular!

            Relative to reading and following the Christian Bible in its historical context, do you follow all the law in the OT? Me thinks not, since Jesus cancelled it out in the NT. Same goes for other seemingly contrarian (not contradictory!) verses within our KJV! In the like manner, we take the NT in its full historical and grammatical context when examining the verses, directives and commands contained within. It is only when the Christian reads and believes the Bible in this manner, that we find no contradictions in the scripture and don’t need to look out for some “other” explanation! Duh!

          • ppp777

            Really .

  • Reason2012

    So they call promoting lies as “being more inclusive” – as if those who promote lies need to have their lies promoted alongside the truth.

  • Trilemma

    God is not human and therefore cannot be either male or female. The Hebrew culture to which the Bible was given was extremely male dominant and women were second class people. There’s no way they would believe God was female. And there’s no way they would accept a woman as the messiah. So the Bible by necessity had to refer to God as male and the messiah had to be a man.

    • Elca

      Base on you logic, a Transgendered person should never accept God as neither male or female.
      And why should a Gay or Lesbian have the right to see this God as either Homosexual or a Lesbian? This is the current culture of Gender Confusion.
      Obviously you do not believe in the Written Word of God as unchanging…
      Question, is God a dog? Soon the culture will demand that we see him as a cat…

      • TheKingOfRhye

        “And why should a Gay or Lesbian have the right to see this God as either Homosexual or a Lesbian?”

        Why should ANYONE not have the right to see “this God” as whatever they believe? Sure, you can say they’re wrong, or say that such-and-such aren’t “True Christians” or whatever, but in a country with freedom of religion (like the one this article is talking about) people have the right to believe what they believe.

        “the Written Word of God as unchanging”

        IS it? With all the different canons, versions, and translations over the years, I’d say the Bible has had quite a lot of changing.

        • Elca

          quote,” With all the different canons, versions, and translations over the years, I’d say the Bible has had quite a lot of changing.” I am afraid you do have a point. We are witnessing Theological Chaos. A making of our own deceived flawed opinions and pride.
          But within this sad confuse plethora of versions, the Truth of God’s Word can still be found to be ” Unchanging”. But it requires, due diligence and a hunger and a thirst for righteousness to rightly divide the Word and the In filling of the Holy Spirit of rightly divide between cultural conformity and the Word of God that does not conform to a changing culture.
          This kind of discernment comes ONLY by Prayer and a Humble Heart that searches for God to fill the Void within.
          question, do you believe in an Unchanging God Who Creates?

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “do you believe in an Unchanging God Who Creates?”

            I don’t believe in any sort of god.

          • Elca

            Thanks for your honesty. I have encountered many of your kind on Christian sites… good to know with whom I am conversing.

    • It is not man who decided that God be referred to in the masculine. It is God Himself.

      • Trilemma

        God could have decided to be referred to in the feminine. But the ancient Hebrews were a very male dominant culture where women were second class citizens and had no authority over men. If God had referred to themself in the feminine the Hebrews would have ignored God. God could have decided to send a woman as the Messiah. But a woman could not be a rabbi. So God had no choice but to refer to themself in the masculine and to make the Messiah a man.

        • Amos Moses – He>i

          “God could have decided to be referred to in the feminine.”

          but He did not ….. and it makes no difference what culture it was ….. God spoke in His voice to the Hebrews at Sinai …… they heard His actual voice and they did not like what they heard …….. and it was clear it was a male voice ….. and God referred to Himself in the masculine ……….

        • Everything you just said is ridiculous and shows that you do not know God and you have no idea who or what you are talking about.

  • Elca

    This is no new thing. For decades the Feminist agenda was to remove any chase of God being revealed as ” Male ” and Father.
    It is only a matter of time before bible versions will refer to god as a dog, a transgendered person or some other image base on one ” equal rights” to view God as they wish.
    And sad to say, many Evangelical Churches will fall in line just as they have under the feminist movement that has gained a strong hold in the Church of Jesus Christ.

  • In other words they are inviting satan to be a member of their church.

  • Randolph Reynoldson

    Read the original languages that the scripture was originally given to us in.

  • ppp777

    Watch Steven Andersons you tube video called ” Island ,a nation of bastards ” , before it is taken off .

    • Tony Demarcus, Ph.D., D.D.

      ppp777:
      Why the heck would Christian want to watch anything by the apostate Steve Anderson? At one time, Anderson may have had some sound ideas relative to his preaching from the Bible. Since then he has long gone off the deep end and has been preaching unBiblical nonsense and conspiracy theories. There is work to do in the name of our beloved baby Jesus, and the Christian has no time for this!

      • ppp777

        Well one , Jesus is no ” baby ” , oh of course your another calvinist .

      • ppp777

        Jesus is no ” baby ” , of course your a Calvinist who believes in a monster that predestines baby’s for hell , that is nothing short of wicked to say the least .

  • ppp777

    Yes they are a nation of reprobates , please look at my top comment .

  • ppp777

    Again I will try , watch Steven Andersons you tube video [ Island , a nation of bastards ] , quick before it gets taken off .

    • ThroatwobblerMangrove

      This is the man who wants to see homosexuals executed.