Predominantly Roman Catholic Country Ireland Votes to Legalize Same-Sex ‘Marriage’

ireland credit andrew parnellDUBLIN, Ireland — Residents in the predominantly Roman Catholic Republic of Ireland voted to legalize same-sex “marriage” on Friday, becoming the first country in the world to do so by popular vote.

According to reports, 1,201,607 voted in favor of changing the country’s constitution, while 734,300 voted against the measure—equating to a 61 percent passage. Only one constituency—Roscommon-South Leitrim—voted against the proposition.

“‘Marriage may be contracted in accordance with law by two persons without distinction as to their sex,” it read.

An estimated 60 percent of the population turned out for the vote.

The Washington Post reports that after the results were announced, thousands flooded into the nation’s pubs and clubs—especially in the capital of Dublin—with some dressing in drag queen attire and dancing to the music of Queen, who is stated to be behind the push for the change.

Singer Bono, who professes to be a Christian, announced that he was dedicating his song “Pride (In The Name Of Love)” to the Irish movement.

“If God loves us, whoever we love, wherever we come from, then why can’t the state?” he told concert-goers during his concert in Phoenix, Arizona.

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A number of the nation’s leaders had supported the referendum as well.

“With today’s vote, we have disclosed who we are: a generous, compassionate, bold and joyful people,” Prime Minister Enda Kenny told reporters.

Homosexual behavior had been a crime in Ireland up until the 1990s.

As Ireland is over 70 percent Roman Catholic, religious leaders pondered what the vote might mean in regard to the mindsets of those who identify as Catholic.

Diarmuid Martin, the archbishop of Dublin, told reporters that while he opposed the referendum, he recognized that many who voted for the constitutional amendment grew up Roman Catholic.

“I ask myself, most of these young people who voted yes are products of our Catholic school system for 12 years,” he stated. “I’m saying there’s a big challenge there to see how we get across the message of the Church.”

But it wasn’t only Catholic youth that were voting in favor of the amendment.

“We are Catholics, and we are taught to believe in compassion and love and fairness and inclusion,” Paddy Whyte, 79, told the New York Times.

Martin said that the vote called for the Roman Catholic institution in Ireland to take a “reality check.”

“We [Roman Catholic leaders] have to stop and have a reality check, not move into denial of the realities,” he stated. “I think it is a social revolution.”

But evangelicals in the country said that their congregations were among those voting against the proposal. Only 1.5 percent of the population in Ireland identifies as evangelical Christian.

“[Our members] already know that it is against the Scriptures to allow for same-sex marriages,” Nigerian-born pastor Adewale Kuyebi from the Christ Apostolic Church in Blanchardstown told the Guardian. “I am confident all of them are for the no side because they read their Bible and understand what it tells them.”

Mike Garba, pastor Mountain of Fire and Miracles Church in North Dublin, made similar comments.

“Our message to our 250-strong congregation is that if you know the rules then you must vote no,” he said. “We tell them that if you read your Bible then you know that it is against Christianity to see the same sexes marrying. It is the same in churches like ours all over the country—100% no to this.”

Kuyebi said that Christians were using an app called “Whatsapp” to help get out the vote.

“This app has touched 30,000 believers already and will reach many more over this week because we do not want a godless law being incorporated into the Irish constitution,” he said earlier this month.

John Waters of the organization First Families First said that many of those who opposed the amendment faced pressure to keep quiet.

“The climate of intimidation and menace has been so acute that people are being scared into silence,” he stated on Newstalk’s Sunday Show. “When someone puts up an argument, they blandly say that you’re scaremongering. … One is not allowed to have a nuanced or subtle view on [gay marriage].”

Nineteen other countries have legalized same-sex “marriage” through the legislature or judicial system.

Photo: Andrew Parnell

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  • Just when you think you have heard of every type of heresy imaginable… leave it to the increasingly apostate Church of England to come up with a brand-new type of heresy.

    • WorldGoneCrazy

      Yes, it is like in the abortion wars: just when you think the insanity has reached it’s peak, it turns out that there is always room for more.

    • And the heresy is…?

      Your post seems to have been truncated. By the Good Sense Fairy, perhaps.


  • Mr. Avatar

    Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple. For your obedience has become known to all. Therefore I am glad on your behalf; but I want you to be wise in what is good, and simple concerning evil. And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. – Rom. 16:17-20

    • bowie1

      I hope you follow that command.

      • women100

        Troll all the Christian sites right?

        • bowie1

          Since I am a believer myself I’m not sure that would define me.

    • “I’m not causing divisions. They are.”

    • martinhoran

      I think, Mr Avatar, you need to read Luke 12:51-56 then Daniel 8:25. It seems that you are quoting out of context to bring further division.

  • Frank

    Here’s your sign.

  • Bobby Mae

    “Fear everything you don’t understand and call it the devil.” – conservative fundamentalists.

    • Psk6565

      It is simply calling what God has revealed to be of the devil, as the devil. Either the Bible is God revealing His mind or it isn’t.

      • Bobby Mae

        Transgenderism isn’t even mentioned in the Bible. Now you’re just using the Bible to justify your own feelings.

        • Psk6565

          Male includes body, mind and soul
          Female includes body, mind and soul

          There is no other category therefore transgenders are not being truthful and neither are those that approve of it.

          It is like saying the bible never mentions dogs in cats bodies, therefore we can’t say anything about thiat.

          • Bobby Mae

            Yeah, see you’re making things up now to justify how YOU feel. It’s sad that you can’t see it. You dont know these people or what goes on in their mind… And they’re wanting to get baptized and be Christian and yet you guys won’t even let them do that! they are human beings, you know?

          • Psk6565

            You will need to prove I am making stuff up, you can’t just assert things. I have proven what scripture says about man and women. I would be hating my fellow human being if I lead them further into deception.

          • Bobby Mae

            These are still men and women. Show me in the bible where it discusses this issue. on a slightly different note, do you believe in mental problems like PTSD, schizophrenia etc?

          • Psk6565

            I already address the first part.


          • Bobby Mae

            The burden of proof is on you to prove this is a sin, not me.

          • Lisa Marie

            I think people are doing whatever they want. God did not say do whatever you want and I will give you eternal life

          • Bobby Mae

            So you think they just wake up one day and say I want to turn into a woman?

          • Lisa Marie

            yes, the enemy works that way

          • Bobby Mae

            No… It doesnt. Maybe talk to one of them ? Im attracted to the same sex by the way, I suppose you think I woke up one day and just chose to be that way too?

          • Lisa Marie

            your flesh is attracted to the same sex, we must die to the flesh…and only the indwelling of Christ will help you overcome

          • Bobby Mae

            Yep, I’m celibate

          • Lisa Marie

            the confused person, who wants re-baptism, has not been filled with God’s Holy Spirit the first time he was baptised. Because the infilling of the Holy Spirit would not cause confusion, but would bring peace and strength to overcome. Why was this person not filled with the Holy Spirit when he was first baptized? Well Jesus said the Holy Spirit is like the wind, we cannot see where it comes from or where it goes. It is a gift of God, but a gift must be recieved in spirit and in truth. Worship must be in spirit and in truth. perhaps this person did not grow in the grace and knowlege of Jesus Christ after his first baptism. Perhaps the Holy Spirit was grieved with this?

          • the confused person, who wants re-baptism

            They’re not confused. They’re confusing – to others.

          • Akumanoid

            Wrong. They are mentally ill and obsessed with things normal people do not obsess about to the point of self harm for self image.

          • Saying something doesn’t make it so.

            The psychiatric profession disagrees with you, as do geneticists, endocrinologists, neurologists etc.

            You’re entitled to your own opinions – but not your own facts.

          • Akumanoid

            Fact: Transgendered people are obsessed with their biological sex to the point of self mutilation.
            Opinion: If you can’t call that a mental illness, the term has no meaning anymore.
            Fact: Aside from Gender Dysphoria (Formerly Gender Identity Disorder) is still a disorder a mental illness, as much as progressives like yourself are trying to change that to make this kind of degenerate behavior acceptable.
            Fact: You are conflating studies with entire fields of science.
            Opinion: That is willfully misleading.
            Fact: Studies can and are fudged to push agendas in the real world.
            Fact: The LBGT lobby has their claws into funded research like this.
            Opinion: You are scum.

          • I refer you to symposium s10 if the APA annual conference 2009:
            Symposium Title: The Neurobiological Evidence for Transgenderism

            S10. The Neurobiological Evidence for Transgenderism
            1. Brain Gender Identity Sidney W. Ecker, M.D.
            2. Transsexuality as an Intersex Condition Milton Diamond, Ph.D.
            3. Novel Approaches to Endocrine Treatment of Transgender Adolescents and Adults Norman Spack, M.D.

            Hi Zoe,

            Yes, we gave our presentation to 60 plus psychiatrists from the US, AU, FR, IT, EU, UK, Holland etc.

            We spoke for 2 1/2 hours on why cross gender identity was a normal inherited variation of humans. We showed how Transgender Brains think, smell, and hear like the opposite sex. We presented internationally accepted guidelines for hormonal treatment of transsexuals to be published Summer 2009.

            Here are my slides and with my participants’ permission I shall send you theirs. We are now in print in the APA Syllabus and soon in the APA Journal this summer. I am checking
            if we were recorded.

            My greatest personal compliment came from Frank Kruijver, from Holland, whose research of the human brain in TSs
            started it all. He thought we have taken his work very far in our understanding of the human brain. Hope you can do something with this.

            Sid Ecker, M.D.

            Re: Mental Illness:

            In December 2002, the British Lord Chancellor’s office published a Policy Concerning Transsexual People document that categorically states, “What transsexualism is not … It is not a mental illness.”
            In May 2009, the government of France declared that a transsexual gender identity will no longer be classified as a psychiatric condition.

            While that proves nothing, it does show that your bald assertions are at the least not universally accepted.

            Symposium S6 at the aforementioned 2009 APA annual conference dealt with this thorny issue too.

            From Psychiatric News February 20, 2009 Volume 44, Number 4, page 13:

            The remaining symposium, “In or Out? A Discussion About Gender Identity Diagnoses and the DSM,” will focus on diagnostic issues specific to gender identity disorder, particularly the issues of having gender identity disorder listed in DSM-V and the implications of
            removing it

            S6. “In or Out?”: A Discussion About Gender Identity Diagnoses and the DSM (DSM Track DM03)

            1. The DSM-V Revision Process: Principles and Progress William E. Narrow, M.D.
            2. Beyond Conundrum: Strategies for Diagnostic Harm Reduction Kelley Winters, Ph.D.
            3. Aligning Bodies With Minds: The Case for Medical and Surgical Treatment of Gender Dysphoria Rebecca Allison, M.D.
            4. The Role of Medical and Psychological Discourse in Legal and Policy Advocacy for Transgender Persons in the U.S. Shannon P. Minter, J.D.

            When the factual question of whether a medical syndrome
            should be in a psychiatric diagnostic manual depends on political considerations – then we have a problem.

            The whole idea of having GID listed in a psychiatric diagnostics manual was so it would be a recognised medical condition, and treatment paid for and allowances made in employment, as per any other medical condition. Even though evidence now confirms its likely physiological cause.

            Unfortunately, despite resolutions by the APA, AMA etc, very few insurance policies cover it, and it is used as an
            excuse to deny payments for broken legs (the theory being that hormonal treatment might lead to brittle bones) etc.

            The LBGT lobby has their claws into funded research like this.

            Citation, please? Evidence for this conspiracy theory?

            I suspect this is projection. We know who funded the infamous Regnerus study, and those who do do “Pay for comment” think everyone else is intellectually dishonest too,

          • Lisa Marie

            this is your cross to bear. The Lord knows your struggles, and weaknesses and if you are having trouble, ask Him for help. Ask Him to fill you with His Holy Spirit and He will help you because He loves you…we are not called to happiness. We are called to holiness

          • You will need to prove I am making stuff up, you can’t just assert things.

            OK, here you go:

            Male-to-female transsexuals show sex-atypical hypothalamus activation when smelling odorous steroids. by Berglund et al Cerebral Cortex 2008 18(8):1900-1908;

            Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus
            . Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041

            Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation. Swaab Gynecol Endocrinol (2004) 19:301–312.

            A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70.

            A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity. by Garcia-Falgueras et al Brain. 2008 Dec;131(Pt 12):3132-46.

            … and many hundreds of others. These are all available on the net. Read them for yourself, don’t take my word for it.

            To see just how wrong the idea of a strict binary model of sex is, just look at how many Intersex conditions there are, people born with bodies neither 100% stereotypically male nor 100% stereotypically female.

            It’s 1 in 60.

            Though most of the differences are too small to be significant. However, in about 1 in 1000-2000 cases we can’t say that the child is superficially more F than M, or vice versa.

            Appearances can be deceptive though, so there are boys who look more like girls, and vice-versa.

            And then there are the more spectacular syndromes, such as 5ARD, 17BHSD, 3BHSD, 45X/46XY MGD etc that cause a natural sex change.

            Such people’s mere existence contradicts much religious dogma. It’s thus seen as a vicious and wicked attack on religious belief, and even an attack on God Himself.

            I have 3BHSD. Just by existing, I disprove scripture. Many people don’t like that – but what am I to do?

          • Psk6565

            May I ask how you know what is true?

          • Psk6565

            I will read these.

          • Princess Sheilyia

            Mister, do you honestly even know what being a woman is? I do because I was born a woman, DNA and all. Women do not have to “become” women because they are already women. Men cannot become a woman no matter how much they covet. Men can mimic women based on what they have seen or experienced in social situations. It is highly insulting to biological real women everywhere for MEN to be so arrogant that they think they can be one of us, know our minds, know our feelings, and suffer our hardships of life. Mac lipstick and a cheap wig does not change anything or anyone. Feelings do not erase reality. A man wearing a dress is simply just a man wearing a dress. Learn how to live life on life’s terms and quit trying to force everyone else to go along with your unobtainable fantasies. Pinocchio wanted to be a boy…but that is a cartoon. In real life a wooden puppet is a wooden puppet. Get professional help.

          • Oh I’ve had professional help. Geneticists, Endocrinologists, even Psychologists to help me deal with the changes to my body. The formal diagnosis is “severe androgenisation of a non-pregnant woman”.

            You say you have a woman’s DNA. I believe you. But have you had a Karyotype? A gene test? I have.

            So has this woman:

            J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Jan;93(1):182-9
            — A 46,XY mother who developed as a normal woman underwent spontaneous puberty, reached menarche, menstruated regularly, experienced two unassisted pregnancies,and gave birth to a 46,XY daughter with complete gonadal dysgenesis.–

            She has a woman’s DNA – that happens to be 46,XY chromosomes in her case. So has her daughter.

            Yours are probably 46,XX, that’s more common. But could be 47,XXY, or 45,X/46,XX, or any of a number of other combinations.

            Now I could believe some random stranger on the net, claiming to be a “princess”, wholly ignorant of biology, going on about “REAL women” and pretending that she, and only she, is “real”, that everyone else is fantasising.

            Or I can believe my medical team, and the results of the medical tests, and the hysterectomy scar on my abdomen.

            Not exactly a tough choice.

          • Princess Sheilyia

            All these tests that you hang onto like a blood thirsty rabid animal do not make you a woman…a wishful android, maybe…if there existed any such things.

            I never needed a test to tell me I was a woman because I was born a woman. My two children, who I gave birth to and nursed, never had to have “tests” presented to them to begging them to believe I am a woman and their mother. If you have to go to such lengths to even know what and who you are that is sad, indeed. However, your “tests” do not change the fact that men are men and women are women. Intersex people have a valid medical condition. Sick and twisted people who get a kick out of pretending to be something they are not are just mentally ill. Men cannot become women and women cannot become men, period. Jealousy of true and real women is inappropriate so you may want to get over that. Furthermore, my Heavenly Father is the King and I, along with many of my brothers and sisters in Christ, are princes and princesses. Deal with or not….its your fantasy after all…right? Lol!!!!!!!

          • Have you had a karyotype? A gene test?

            Because although the odds are really, really remote.. you could have 46,XY “male” chromosomes like this mother of three.

            I have had a karyotype, by the way. And no, not transsexual. A “real” woman? I try to be a decent human being, and biologically, I’m female. But I don’t think I’m like you.

            Jealous? In one respect. I only have one child, and that after 13 miscarriages. Still I was told at age 25 at a fertility clinic that my odds of ever being a biological parent were “remote”. Two may be twice as good as one, but one is infinitely better than none.

            In other regards, no, not jealous at all. That’s not to say I look down on you, just that I’m glad I don’t have your air of superiority. There are worse faults though, and no doubt I have a few of those.

            I’ll take your word for it that you’re a princess. I’m more comfortable amongst the hoi palloi, the rocket scientists, mathematicians and geneticists.

            And if you ever do have a karyotype.. and find you’re not as genetically pure as you assume you are (odds of that are about 1 in 600)… I can maybe help. You’re not nearly as unpleasant as some I’ve given help to. I make no distinctions there – someone needs help, I give it. Even if I get a kick in the teeth for it, something I doubt you’d do (but some have).

          • Princess Sheilyia

            Again, I, as most, do not need a test for something that nature has simply confirmed throughout the years, starting at birth. Decent human beings do not encourage mental illness in others. That’s actually cruel and exploitative. It is no different than giving drugs to the addicted.

            I never said I was superior but obviously it is something you feel I am since you brought it up. You haven’t helped anyone but yourself. The fact that you think you have is amusing…sad…but amusing.

            Too bad none of your “friends” listed was God.

            Romans 1:22-25 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. 24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen

          • That’s what happens when you worship an idol, a thing made by men, calling it holy.

            Like a book, written by men, a mere object of paper and ink, which is then venerated as “Holy” and “Inerrant”.

            Seriously, if you do have one of the rare Intersex syndromes that mean you’re “genetically male” – you might find that terribly traumatic, as you have so much invested in being a “real” woman, (compared to all those fakes?)

            I can help there, give you examples of 46,XY women far more feminine than either of us. Mothers, grandmothers, pole dancers (!), nurses… As for me, I always was a tomboy, into jeans with pockets not lace and frills..Typical case of CAH.

            “Prenatal hormones versus postnatal socialization by parents as determinants of male-typical toy play in girls with congenital adrenal hyperplasia” Pasterski VL, Geffner ME, Brain C, Hindmarsh P, Brook C, Hines M Child Dev 76(1):264-78 2005
            — Data show that increased male-typical toy play by girls with CAH cannot be explained by parental encouragement of male-typical toy play. Although parents encourage sex-appropriate behavior, their encouragement appears to be insufficient to override the interest of girls with CAH in cross-sexed toys.–

          • Princess Sheilyia

            That is wholly your opinion born of unsurprising ignorance of my faith.

            Again, normal people that are not confused to the point of laughter do not need anyone nor any tests to confirm whether they are a girl or a boy. Unfortunately, you have that mindset of a person that needs to hear, with bated breath, someone else inform you of who you are.

            Tests, articles, etc. Seriously??? Wow! What if the tests were wrong? What if the files were mixed up or the samples? Oops!!!! Who are you then? Do YOU even know?

            Sad, sad, sad! I feel sooooo sorry for you being as lost as you are. I feel worse for those that you think, in your sick mind, you can help someone. It’s like a crack-head trying to help a drunk. It’s good for comedy but it just doesn’t work. I’m not even worried about you “helping” anyone. They would have to be as dumb as a box of rocks to buy into your sad way of life, quite honestly. You need help for yourself. Here’s a clue: You cannot give what you do not have. You need Jesus! Common sense goes a long way…but only if you use it.

          • Bobby Mae

            So then according to you, what are these people experiencing?

          • Psk6565

            They are being seduced by their own desires, the worlds influence and Satan’s lie. They desire to be different genders and they are following that desire instead of denying it by believing God made them the gender they are (The body, mind and soul match.)

          • Bobby Mae

            Worlds influence? Yeah obviously people WANT to be transgender lol how much more ignorant can you get?

          • Psk6565

            Would you have said this 60 years about homosexuality? Yes. But the idea that homosexuality is good in society is marching forward. I am not ignorant.

          • Bobby Mae

            I’ve never said homosexuality is good. It is what it is. Some people are attracted to the same sex. Most aren’t.

          • Psk6565

            I never said you said it was good. You talked about the world therefore I am talking about the world.

          • Bobby Mae

            I am homosexual so no I would not have said that. Dont put words in my mouth

          • Psk6565

            Huh? So you would not have said that the world was not going forward in accepting homosexuality?

          • Bobby Mae

            I’m not following what you’re saying. But it’s okay. I’ll live in my lala world.

          • Bobby Mae

            Why do so many Christians fear and condemn things they personally don’t experience? I suppose you believe all mental health problems are nothing more than demons?

          • The body, mind and soul match

            They don’t though – so why do you say they do? We’ve known that Trans people have anatomically mixed-sex bodies for twenty years now. Genitals of one sex, brain and thus mind of the opposite.

            .Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041

            — The present findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the paradigm that in transsexuals sexual differentiation of the brain and genitals may go into opposite directions and point to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder.–

            .A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70.

            — Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones —

            Yes, I know these observable facts contradict the currently fashionable dogma of the “Theology of the Body”, just as the existence of the moons of Jupiter contradicted the fashionable religious dogma of the day in Galileo’s time. But Eppur si muove. Some today ignore the MRI and PET scan images, just as they refused to look through telescopes back then.

            We’ve also heard these same accusations of sin and wickedness before.

            :”Those who assert that ‘the earth moves and turns’…[are] motivated by ‘a spirit of bitterness, contradiction, and faultfinding;’ possessed by the devil,they aimed ‘to pervert the order of nature.'”

            – John Calvin, sermon no. 8 on 1st Corinthians, 677,

          • Psk6565,

            You’re in luck: ignorance is curable; stupidity is inborn, so we have to put up with it.

            You’re in the clear either way, but you’ll have to get to work if you hope you’re only suffering from the first.


          • A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70.
            Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones

            Trans people have been anatomically of the sex they say they are (at least partially) since before birth. I guess it depends on whether you see your identity as defined by your brain, and thus mind, instincts and personality, or by superficial appearances.

            Now maybe you don’t believe that Intersex people exist. Maybe you don’t believe the Earth is round, and rotates either. They do, and it does, regardless of what the Bible says. It is a book, a thing made by men, a thing of paper and ink. Don’t make it your idol, and call it Holy and Inerrant. Romans 1 tells you what happens when you worship a made thing like that, be it a statue or a book.

          • Tell us a little bit more about your concern for dogs in cats’ bodies, please.


      • Anonymous Psk6565,

        We know the answer to your good question. The Bibles are the bunches of books selected by various and different groups of Christians, mainly between the fourth and fifth centuries C.E. for study.

        Different churches, different Bibles.

        I don’t know how you know your apparently male God has a mind. How did you find that out?


    • Akumanoid

      “If it is disgusting and wrong it should be institutionalized.” – Progressives.

      • Bobby Mae

        You sum up the quote I said perfectly 🙂 xoxo

        • Akumanoid

          I understand your degenerate ideas all too well and I want them out of our society.

          • Bobby Mae

            Ok… Please patrol America’s bedrooms. You’re clearly interested

          • Akumanoid

            I wouldn’t be fed up with you people if you kept it in the bedrooms.

          • Bobby Mae

            So you’re witnessing sodomy and oral sex where you live?

          • Akumanoid

            I’m watching my culture being sodomized and you fellating yourself, yes.

  • FoJC_Forever

    When a person is already covered in mud, new mud doesn’t seem to make much of a difference.

  • Helmut_Schmidt69

    Extraordinary evil. These truly are the end times.

    • amostpolitedebate

      Really? Random people getting water splashed on them is a sign that the end of the world is at hand?

      • Akumanoid

        No, Churches recognizing this insanity is.

    • Bobby Mae

      Can you biblically support your stance on this issue? This is NOT homosexuality nor cross dressing. If you want to compare it to anything, God’s mentions of eunuchs would be the closest thing. And hint, God didn’t find them evil.

      • Nancy Holley Elley

        this is changing your gender,, Eunnuchs did not change their gender… they just were not able to experience sexual intercourse. God did not make a mistake when he made male and female,,

        • Bobby Mae

          And the verse that said God made some eunuchs born that way?

          • Matthew 19:12 –
            “12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb:”

            Isaiah 56:4-5
            “4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

            5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.”

            Far easier to ignore these words and engage in hatred of those who are different. In Jesus Name of course, so they feel smugly pious when doing so.

          • Bobby Mae

            Amen. It’s so disgusting to see “Christians” condemn everyone that experiences something they dont.

          • women100

            no reply just your stupid sexual desires showing up in your post.

          • Bobby Mae

            Sexual desires?? This article has zero to do with sexual desires.

          • Zoe_Brain,

            Good work. Carry on.


        • Bobby Mae

          And where did God say changing your gender is a sin? Oh wait, he never did.

          • Bruce Morrow

            One cannot CHANGE their gender. That is Impossible. A person is either born male or female.

          • Andes

            Who would have imagined that such an obvious thing would even need to be said!

  • Paulina Evarts

    Well, this is a different subject and cant be considered as one equal to same sex marriages. We have seen gender transition happening in our communities, these children are actually helpless and suffer emotionally. There was a student who was born a boy, he had girlfriends who respected him as a boy, but then at puberty there was a transition. Just because we didnt experience such health issues during bible times we cant exclude such children from our society, every human being is precious in God’s sight. So, as Christians, I believe the Church should make ammends to accomodate issues like this that are clearly beyond the individuals ability of choice!

    • bowie1

      How do you know they didn’t experience such temptations?

      • Bobby Mae

        How do you know they did?

        • bowie1

          There are many sins that are common onto man. It’s quite possible there may have been some who were tempted this way in Sodom and Gomorrah although it’s not mentioned specifically.

        • Nancy Holley Elley

          The Bible is our guide to how we should live,, There is nothing that this time is experiencing that did not happen back then,, That is how we are sure that we can live in a sin filled world and still resist the sin..

        • women100

          We know who you are and we know your thoughts as does God. People like you are the reason children are led astray. Evils does as evil say Bobby

          • Bobby Mae

            You know my thoughts as God does?? Lol! That is blasphemy, woman.

      • Bowie_somenumber,

        I see no reference to “temptations” in Paulina’s post.

        Are there some temptations in your own mind here, perhaps?


    • The modern transgender miracles driving this agenda are rooted in disorder and rebellion, not in reality. Being dead in sin is also clearly beyond the individual’s ability of choice.

      • “…disorder and rebellion, not in reality.”


        Disorder is the Second Law of Thermodynamics, and it doesn’t really matter whether you choose to “believe” it: like gravity, it will govern your whole life, full time, whether you believe in it or not.

        The rebellion I see all around, looks pretty real to me, and much of it good. What do you have in mind?


        • You love sin. Sin doesn’t love you though: it is out to govern your whole life, full time, whether you believe in it or not, and to destroy everything you consider good.

          • Jan,

            That doesn’t quite answer my question. I asked about rebellion.

            Do you disagree with my opinion that some rebellions are good and some are bad? And do you think that, e.g. the Boka Haram rebellion in Nigeria is unreal? If so, why?

            While we’re at it, you write “You love sin.”

            You don’t know me. We’ve never met. You are very silly to think about what I do, think, know… or love.

            But I would like your answer to my question.


          • Words have meaning. Why pretend they do not?

          • That’s your best shot, hunh?


          • And you wonder why I don’t answer your “questions”.

          • No, Jan, I don’t wonder.

            You’re just some grumpy old guy who spends his time sending out silly e-mails.

            A little bit like me: thank you for pointing out the danger to me.

            Fortunately I haven’t picked up your grumpiness, nor your lunacy about this “Sin” thingie. I make mistakes. But Sin? Nope. Your problem, not mine.



      • women100

        Really says who? Do they not only have the wrong body (according to them) but do they
        also NOT have any brain functions to see they are making a choice to change?

    • There was a student who was born a boy, he had girlfriends who
      respected him as a boy, but then at puberty there was a transition.

      Probably 3beta hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase deficiency, or 45X/46XY MGD syndrome. Though there are other, rarer causes for such a natural sex change too.

      Such people don’t get treated very well by the ignorant churchgoing masses.

      And yes, such health issues were experienced in biblical times, they were even recorded, just not in the books that made it into the canon. All mammals have them.

      They’re hinted at in Matthew 19:12 – “For their are eunuchs born of their mothers womb”.

      • women100

        Being born a eunuch is not the same as saying I am a boy but want to be a girl. NOT the same

        • Bobby Mae

          So then what IS a born eunuch? Can you give me an example of one alive today?

        • They’re girls who want to be girls though.
          They just looked superficially mostly like boys.

          Anatomically, they’re female.

          A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70.

          Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones

          Something visible in PET and MRI scans.

    • women100

      Read the book of Roman’s 1:26-29 and God gave them up unto vile affections for even the women did change their natural use into that which is against nature.
      Having “feelings” that you are not what God made you in his eyes is wrong.
      Who says they suffer emotionally? THEM? YOU? Are you one of these confused who cannot identify what God made them?
      This is NOT a health issue it is an immoral issue. IT’S CALLED MORAL RELATIVISM! IF IT AFFECTS ME AND MY DESIRES THEN THOSE CHRISTIAN’S ARE WRONG. The church should stand with God’s word not yours and BTW YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN IF THIS IS WHAT YOU THINK on this subject God has the final word on everything

  • Ah, you have told a lie! We wish to repeat your lie. Come along and we will lie about your name in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

    • Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35

      The fetal brain develops during the intrauterine period in the male
      direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing
      nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this
      hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of
      belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are
      programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in
      the womb. However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes
      place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of
      the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes
      can be influenced independently, which may result in extreme cases in
      trans-sexuality. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at
      birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the
      degree of masculinization of the brain. There is no indication that
      social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or
      sexual orientation.

      Or if that’s too complex…

      A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70.
      Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically
      male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity
      develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and
      sex hormones

      Trans people have been anatomically of the sex they say they are (at least partially) since before birth. I guess it depends on whether you see your identity as defined by your brain, and thus mind, instincts and personality, or by superficial appearances.

      • So I say it’s a lie, and you say “it’s justified by a stack of long words”, but that stack of long words forms another lie. You can do degree level programmes in parroting such lies. If you think you’re nothing but a malfunctioning machine, then I say your logic is also faulty.

        • I’m sorry you don’t understand the terminology – the :”long words”. I’ll try to clarify in words that are in your vocabulary.

          Some girls are born looking like boys.
          Some boys are born looking like girls.
          Girls have girl-type brains.
          Boys have boy-type brains.
          They differ, physically.
          When the baby develops in the mother’s tummy, the “looking like a boy” or “looking like a girl” bits develop before the brain does.
          Sometimes things happen involving chemicals called “hormones” that mean the “looking like” bits develop one way, the brain the other.

          It’s odd that you understand words like “agnosticism” and “enforcement”, and claim to be an engineer, but don’t understand very, very simple middle-school biology. It’s not that you’re unintelligent, merely ignorant or lying.

          Home schooled, I assume.

          Probably ignorant. I’ve had Christian editors tell me their readers won’t be able to understand “long words” like “anatomy” and “hypothesis”.

          • With shorter words it’s much better: the lie is clearer. You are getting closer to saying what you mean: “some girls have boy-type brains; some boys have girl-type brains.” When it’s not hidden in long words, it’s all about what the girl or the boy thinks in their brain – and they can say anything they like. (And thank you for the time you have taken to personalise your insults ☺ )

          • jnail7

            It seems the disconnect is due to a presumption on your part that somehow thought precedes physical brain activity. If such were true, then your claims would be completely logical concerning such just “being in their head”. However, it is easily to empirically prove that physical changes to the structure of one’s brain will have observable results, some of which will manifest in changes in personality.
            Even without physically altering the brain, scientist have been able to show that brain activity precedes conscious thought: Soon, C. S., Brass, M., Heinze, H.-J. & Haynes, J.-D. Nature Neurosci. doi: 10.1038/nn.2112 (2008).
            Let’s pause for a moment and take humans out of the equation. It is easily observed throughout the animal kingdom that each sexually dimorphic species(ie. animals that differentiate into “boys” and “girls”) display some behaviors common to their particular sex within their particular species and uncommon for those of differing sex within their species. Most species do not have anything close to the complex social structure and influences that humans do. In fact many are born with minimal (simple feeding and guarding) to no parental support. For such, there is no common display of gender expressions to dictate learned behavior, yet they still present behaviors typical of their sex. This means that something sex-specific is hard-wired in their brains. There are many experiments involving animal testing where fetal development was influenced by the introduction of or inhibition of select hormones (basically artificially recreating what can and does happen randomly in nature, but in a controlled setting to observe the results). Interestingly, at certain stages of development (post gonadal development) test subjects were born presenting phenotypically as one sex, but displaying the typical sex-based behaviors of the opposite sex. They were not trained to act this way. Their “parents” did not push them to this because they really wanted a “boy”/”girl”. It is the result of the brain developing along the basic blueprint, which contains the instructions for both sexes to develop, based upon the guidance of the hormone signals present. The same applies to humans, though we do not perform the same experiments due to our cultural impression of such being unethical.
            What makes humans different is that social interactions are also important environmental factors which must be adapted to. Whereas the test animals simply behave instinctually based on their brain development, humans are perpetually trying to balance their instinctual autonomous needs with the needs of social acceptance. We have an instinctual need to eat, sleep, and breath. We also have the capacity to consciously deny those needs to some extent. Eventually there is a cost to be paid when denying an autonomous need for too long with the time interval varying by individual.

            The point is, what a person “thinks” in this situation is immaterial as it simply an echo of the underlying structure in their brain trying to get a grasp on adapting within the confines of our social obligations. In the end, these people exist and are as human as any of us.

          • People are not lab rats.

          • jnail7

            Oh Noes! The foundation of comparative anatomy and physiology that has been utilized to advance our medical knowledge must be a sham! (/sarcasm).

          • So you disagree that the human brain is sexually dimorphic? Or is it that you believe brain anatomy has no effect on personality? Or something else – I have no wish to erect a straw man.

            If I apprehend you rightly, it seems me disagree on what characteristics define whether someone is a boy or a girl.

            I claim that all girls have girl-type brains by definition., That it is the neural anatomy causing the instincts, body language, emotional response, senses of hearing and smell, thought processes, and personality that defines them as girls, regardless of other characteristics – height for example, or chromosomes, or presence/absence of uterus.

            That those with girl-type brains are girls. That’s what defines a girl, “someone with a girl-type brain”.

            Your definition is?

            Bear in mind I’m Intersex, so your definition will have to apply universally, as mine does. All definitions – even mine – have issues. Some more than others though.

          • Lawyers also love to twist the meaning of words based on extrapolating from edge-cases to make bad law. You want new meanings for “girl” and “boy”. You cannot: it’s a lie. We are not made like that. We are thoroughly broken, but we are not made with the ability to redefine ourselves.

          • You evaded the question. I’ll repeat it – your definition is?

            Is it based on chromosomes? Chromosomes at birth (for they can change)? Genitalia? Genitalia at birth (for that can change)? Height? Ability to reproduce?

            We’re talking about Trans people here – “edge-cases” if you like, so you can’t dodge the issue by excluding them. You’ve said they’re wrong. Well maybe they are, but you need to justify why you think so, or your words aren’t either credible or useful.

            You’ve accused them, and me, of lying, not just being mistaken, but deliberately uttering falsehood. Why? “Just because” is no answer since you’re bearing false witness.

          • The historical definition stands: Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created.
            Sin has marred man, but there is no third class of man.

          • Given that secular marriage is mentioned in the Code of Ur-Nammu, pre-dating Abraham’s birth by a few centuries.. it would be difficult to argue that a Judeo-Christian God “invented” marriage rather than taking over a going concern. Roman marriage was even closer to that of the present day.

            ….classical Roman monogamy was strikingly modern, while the later Christian version (enacted, of course, by Roman Christians) was not. Classical Roman marriage law protected women’s property, respected women’s autonomy, did not impair married women’s capacity to contract, and allowed unilateral and consensual divorce to both men and women on equal terms.

            By contrast, Christian emperors constricted access to divorce, eventually banning it outright; severely impaired a married woman’s capacity not only to manage her property but also to leave the house without her husband’s permission, and – under Constantine – attempted to make (female) adultery a capital offence. Perhaps most significantly, the Christian Emperor Theodosius enacted a law banning the extant practice of same-sex marriage (at the same time as he was stripping married women of their rights):

            From A plea in law for equal marriage by H.Dale,
            winner in the essay competition organised by the Society with the Scottish Parliament: a proposal for a member’s bill that is topical and would “make a useful change to Scots law”

            And again you evade the question : your definition is?

          • I said man, male and female. You said marriage. The man from Ur (pick a man) does not predate man. In the beginning, God made them male and female. There’s not a great deal before the beginning. You haven’t fixed it: you’re breaking it. That “useful change” is not a fix, nor even a work-around.

          • See first line of Matthew 19:12 (also references to “barren women”)

            For extra credit, look up Tumtum in the Babylonian Talmud.

            Intersex people’s existence was recognised even in Biblical times.

            The Romans either burnt them, or later, under Saint Constantine, immured them in caskets and threw them into a river.

            I’ll make one more attempt, in good faith – what is your definition?

            I’ll stipulate that in 59 cases out of 60, it’s obvious and unambiguous.

          • This site doesn’t allow URLs – but I’ll try
            www dot
            usrf dot
            org/news/010308-guevedoces dot

            Please have a look and then tell me if they were born boys or girls.

        • I’m sorry you don’t understand the “long words” – but there’s nothing there more complex than grade school biology.

          The original articles are on the net, if you Google the titles.

          Regarding “malfunctioning machine” – I assume you go to medical doctors – the ones who do diagnosis and repair of the body? Or perhaps you rely in prayer rather than antibiotics.

          If you think medicine is a lie – please say why.

  • Psk6565

    They seemed to have bought into the lie that that people can change their gender. You might be able to disfigure the inside and outside of your body, but you can’t do it to your mind and soul.

    • Bobby Mae

      Where in the Bible is this a sin?

      • You don’t care.

        • Bobby Mae

          You have a very bitter tone to every comment you post for someone who is led by the Holy Spirit

          • You care about sin in others?

          • Bobby Mae

            I care when people talk to me condescendingly which you seem to be a pro at

          • So answering your sin is sin? If you dislike being answered by sinners, perhaps you can wait for Jesus Christ to answer you. You will not find him a sinner, nor unduly condescending.

          • Bobby Mae

            You clearly need some help

          • Indeed I do. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

  • LeftCoast

    Thank God that this is happening over there and not over here.

  • Brenda Golden

    DNA doesn’t change. You are either male or female and no matter how you mutilate your body the DNA stays the same. When those who embrace and encourage this kind of behavior meet God they can explain to him how he was wrong. It is sad when someone doesn’t want to be what they are and choose to lie to themselves and everyone else. What is worse is there are those who push this behavior knowing that it is against the word of God uncaring about the consequences to the soul including their own.

    • Bobby Mae

      Where does the Bible say this is a sin? YOU may not like it but the Bible never mentions it.

      • Psk6565

        Genesis 5:2 “Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created.”

        Coupled with the 9th commandment: Thou shalt not lie

        • Bobby Mae

          Yeah, these are still males and females we’re talking about. That verse says nothing about this issue.

          • Psk6565

            And they are lying about which sex they are.

          • Bobby Mae

            So now you’re a psychic and read their minds. Got it.

        • Science 1974 Dec 27; 186 (4170): 1213-5
          In an isolated village of the southwestern Dominican Republic, 2% of the live births were in the 1970’s, guevedoces ….These children appeared to be girls at birth, but at puberty these
          ‘girls’ sprout muscles, testes, and a penis. For the rest of their lives they are men in nearly all respects. Their underlying pathology was found to be a deficiency of the enzyme, 5-alpha Reductase.

          So now you’re telling God what He does, based on your own flawed interpretation of words in a book written by men, rather than listening to Him and observing His handiwork.

          Intersex people exist. To condemn them as inherently evil from before birth, or to deny their existence because of your own ignorance… well, I’d say it’s not very Christian, except that so many Christians do it.

    • DNA doesn’t change. You are either male or female and no matter how you mutilate your body the DNA stays the same.

      Unless you have a bone-marrow transplant. Then, due to cell turnover, your body gradually becomes genetically identical to the donor.

      But so what, DNA doesn’t define sex. 1 in 300 men don’t have 46,XY “male” chromosomes. Some women do. Sometimes so do the daughters they give birth to.

      J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Jan;93(1):182-9
      A 46,XY mother who developed as a normal woman underwent spontaneous puberty, reached menarche, menstruated regularly, experienced two unassisted pregnancies, and gave birth to a 46,XY daughter with complete gonadal dysgenesis.

      The Earth isn’t flat either, even though that too may go against your religious beliefs.

      Being ignorant of biology is excusable. Using your misconceptions as justification for persecuting others, and then shifting responsibility onto God for it, less so.

    • MostlyLib

      Since you brought up science, and specifically Genetics and Human physiological development. Let us explore that.

      Thalidomide victims have normal ‘DNA’, yet stunted limbs. This is because conception is only the very first stage in a long, long process of physiological development. Each of those processes, is very vulnerable to the biochemical environment, in which it develops. Ergo, stating that people are their DNA is completely misunderstanding how human development works, and erasing a vast number of developmental conditions as ‘impossible’ because you assume incorrectly that post-conception, nothing ever diverges from that blueprint.

      It is a proven fact, that there is both sexual differentiation in the brain structures, and that exposing a fetus to abnormal hormonal concentrations, can cause development to occur contrary to the chromosomal sex. It doesn’t prove that occurs in every case of Gender Dysphoria, but it is proven as a potential cause of it.

      Transgender people not only suffer discrimination in multiple areas due to attitudes that seek to deny their existence, but even worse, such attitudes lead to assaults, suicides and even murder. Given the scientific facts, above, I would want to be 100% sure before I started judging and vilifying transgender people. I would want to see a passage in the Bible that talks about God not just making man and woman, but explicitly explaining that a person with male genitals cannot have a female brain, and that not just transvestism (which is not the same as being transgender) but actually asserting a gender that seems to contravene external organs, is a sin too.

      Given the factual misery and harm that oppressive attitudes to transgender people cause, logically, I would need something explicit and unambiguous to justify harming them, as scientific consensus states right now.
      Unfortunately, there is no such verse in the Bible, and all the justification to vilify and oppress transgender people, comes from human ‘interpretation’ and inference. In reality such people are not using the Bible as a guide, just as a shield to justify their own cultural and social prejudice. Good luck explaining that to God…

  • ironnat

    There will be many who are surprised when it comes to judgment day. Jesus warned them:

    “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; Depart From Me, You Who Practice Lawlessness.'”

    Mainline Churches are becoming more and more apostate and our turning their eyes from Jesus and the Scriptures. It is apparent that with the end of the ages there truly will be a remnant people.

    • Bobby Mae

      And that verse applies to these people wanting to get baptized how?

  • Peter Leh

    the COE is run by the government, no?

  • Fakir Smith

    When people can’t adhere to the basic teachings of their faith all is lost. You either believe the Bible is God’s word or you don’t. It is not subject to interpretation.

    • I have 3BHSD. Just by existing, I disprove scripture. Many people don’t like that – but what am I to do?

      Perhaps it would be better to worship God, and not a Thing made by men, an object of paper and ink, calling it “Holy” and “Inerrant”. Romans 1 tells you what happens when you start worshiping idols like that.

      • Ah, a Guy In Real Life.
        “Intersex” is a medical diagnosis. This article is not about people with that medical condition.
        About 3BHSD: Here’s some cut and paste from a random medical site. It refers to the named condition (which you claim to have) and notably divides symptoms between males and females. It does not support your claims.

        QOTD: “Physical findings specific to female and male patients are as follows:
        Affected 46,XX newborns may appear normal or have varying degrees of clitoromegaly and labial fusion.
        Signs of mild androgen excess may occur in older children, including acne, premature pubarche, and advanced linear and skeletal growth.
        Adolescent or older women may present with hirsutism and mild clitoromegaly. Internally, polycystic ovaries may be present.
        newborn 46,XY individuals are incompletely masculinized and have
        varying degrees of hypospadias. Testes are usually palpable.
        with milder defects may present as adolescents with ambiguous genitalia
        and poor virilization. However, virilization or spontaneous puberty has
        been reported in some males.
        Gynecomastia is a common finding in pubertal males.”

        • Read further, and you’ll see there’s a wide variety of symptoms

          It is the only form of CAH associated with genital ambiguity in both males and females…. A variety of phenotypic manifestations can present in infants and older individuals
          — Clinical Reproductive Medicine and Surgery
          By Tommaso Falcone, William W. Hurd

          A great deal of heterogenicity is observed with 3-beta–hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase deficiency. The most severely affected patients may have fatal salt-losing adrenal crises in infancy. By contrast, some patients with classic 3-beta–hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase deficiency do not have
          salt-losing crises; milder or late-onset variants have also been
          described, in which patients do not present until later childhood or adolescence.

          This is especially true in non-classic non-salt-wasting cases like mine, diagnosed through MRI of adrenals confirming CAH of some type, initial ambiguous but mostly male genitalia, changing to mostly female genitalia later with normal female secondary sex characteristics, and response of 17-hydroxypregnenolone. Non-classical 3BHSD is a pain to diagnose.

          It took my medical team 5 years to figure out what was going on.

          30% of such cases remain “Idiopathic” – we never do figure out why the symptoms present.

          10 out of 10 for checking up BTW. Always require evidence. The (Australian) medicare code for my situation is “severe androgenisation of a non-pregnant woman” – which gives me access under the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme (PBS) to certain unusual medications (eg cyproterone acetate), not approved by the US FDA. I still have to pay for them, but at least they’re legal.

          • And armed with that definition, you troll Christian sites telling saying Christian churches should baptise people in their chosen false names in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Along with this, churches must bless of all manner of sexual deviancy (not medical problems) based on what people say they think, not based on any physiological condition such as the one you claim to have. You say they must not heal the man, but love his sin.

          • *SIGH* I try to inform. I’ve said nothing about whether the Church of England should or should not Baptise anyone.

            I’ve shown that Trans people are physiologically of the sex they say they are in some respects, and were so before birth.

            I’ve given evidence, facts, numbers, as opposed to bald unevidenced assertions.

            Feel free not to credit that evidence, but if you wish to rebut it, conspiracy theories and mere assertions of malefic intent won’t work. We’ve heard it all before, you see.

            “Those who assert that ‘the earth moves and turns’…[are] motivated by’a spirit of bitterness, contradiction, and faultfinding;’ possessed by the devil,they aimed ‘to pervert the order of nature.'”

            – John Calvin, sermon no. 8 on 1st Corinthians, 677

            Eppur si muove

  • DJohn1

    The problem is not heresy. The problem is that if and when God arrives what will be his judgement call? That is what needs to be considered here.
    I think the old testament is full of tales of a Living God bringing judgement.
    If he turns it over to Jesus which is most likely, then Jesus must make the call.
    As I read the Bible it is likely to be a violent call.

    • HazumuOsaragi

      If [God] turns it over to Jesus which is most likely, then Jesus must make the call.As I read the Bible it is likely to be a violent call.

      How so? What parts of the Bible are you basing your conjecture on?

      • DJohn1

        There was a priest with two sons. They showed disrespect in the temple by being slightly drunk when performing their duties. God struck them down. I think it was somewhere in Samuel.
        It could go either way. Because also God showed mercy on eunuchs. In the tales of Daniel, he was a eunuch.
        The key might be whether or not the person is considered unclean by Biblical law.
        Many people are confused as to what their sexual identity is early in life. This can change over time as their bodies mature.
        But if a person is born male and becomes female the question remains as to whether they would be considered male and homosexual if having relations with a person that is male. That is where it gets a little tricky when deciding clean or unclean in the sanctuary of a church.
        Just as a woman in her menstrual cycle was considered unclean as far as entering the sanctuary in that condition in the old testament.
        The God of the old testament was very clear about these things in Leviticus. The books of Moses spelled that out.
        What they were dealing with was not a human being. They were dealing with a very powerful entity with specific rules dealing with everything concerning the temple in which God resided.
        Thus we also had the sacrifice of an innocent lamb without fault.
        I suggest that those people were dealing with a very dangerous situation and more than once a violation of those rules caused the death of individuals concerned. The sacrifice was considered necessary to bridge between us and God.

        Under Jesus, that sacrifice was no longer used. As all communication with God is through Jesus Christ, our savior.

        But I maintain that God, the father, part of the trinity, has the option at any time of moving within the temple and can do anything God wants to do. That means just that. God is free to do anything that God wants to do.

        And Jesus always defers to his Father.
        The third part of that trinity is the Holy Spirit. Again Jesus defers to the Holy Spirit and there is no forgiveness for disrespect of that part of the trinity as described in both the old and new testaments.
        And there lies the danger.
        I personally think that the original sacrifice in the original spot where the temple was is likely to bring the original response from God.
        The question being just how dangerous will that be?

        • jnail7

          1) with the knowledge that God is able to do whatever God wants to do at any given point, then true faith in that premise becomes diminished in trying to force upon others any assumption as to what God wants to happen. Basically, if God is so fallible and/or impotent that individuals must force their perception of his plan into fruition, then such a plan is no longer divine, by definition.

          2) within the context of the canonized bible, God vocalized a small and limited set of requirements. Everything else (ie. Mosaic law) is man made for a specific culture and purpose. Jesus embodied this distinction by his acts of defying or encouraging the defiance of such law whenever it was in conflict with demonstrating compassion. This is not the same thing as completely abandoning the law of his culture, or even the geography in which he traveled. He simply demonstrated how to put God’s commandants into meaningful use, even if doing such conflicted with man’s laws. This is what kept him in trouble with the pharisees. The underlying theme is about showing compassion. In the OT, acts of divine judgement (“miracles”) were enacted upon those who failed to show compassion. In the Gospels, Jesus’s miracles embodied the very notion of compassion as did his teachings. The message is pretty obvious, if you fail to develop and demonstrate compassion, then no amount of strict adherence to any ruleset will have any meaning.

          What is the real danger? It is being faced with every instance where one has failed to show compassion and being reminded that what you had done in each instance is as if you had done it to Jesus.

          Each encounter is a test of your compassion. If you can pass each test and hold true to your deeply held convictions, then yay. But if your convictions prevent you from passing, then you have failed by putting your own self-interest first.

        • HazumuOsaragi

          There was a priest with two sons. They showed disrespect in the temple by being slightly drunk when performing their duties. God struck them down. I think it was somewhere in Samuel.

          [T]he two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, yes. Set-up in 1SAM2:12-34, denouement in 1SAM4:11. I didn’t see anything about drunkenness in the KJV texts I read, but I saw a lot about corruption and stealing, and a lot that would be an inspiration for imprecatory prayers. This book of the Bible seems to have made an impression on you

          Many people are confused as to what their sexual identity is early in life. This can change over time as their bodies mature.

          Please expound on this. How many? Out of every 1,000 children, how many are confused as to what their sexual identity is? 1 in 1,000? 5 in 1,000? Your answer doesn’t have to be precise. A range will do.

          Does the change in confusion happen on its own, or does it require adult intervention? Again, a precise answer is not necessary, but I think you should state if it predominately resolves on its own or it predominately requires adult intervention.

          I apologise to @jnail for inserting my reply ahead of yours. I wish Disqus™ provided the option of having ones’ reply appear after previous replies.

          • DJohn1

            “Please expound on this. How many? Out of every 1,000 children, how many are confused as to what their sexual identity is? 1 in 1,000? 5 in 1,000? Your answer doesn’t have to be precise. A range will do.”
            I have no idea statistically the numbers you want. Without a good deal of research the answer would be vague at best. Even things like the Kinsey Report are suspect as to the answers given. Did they tell the truth when answering?
            “Does the change in confusion happen on its own, or does it
            require adult intervention? Again, a precise answer is not necessary,
            but I think you should state if it predominately resolves on its own or it predominately requires adult intervention.”
            The answer to this is as individual as one can get. Because no two people are exactly alike. Nor do people have the same life experiences that shape who they are.
            Sometimes the dominant hormones come into play and that changes things.
            I have known women that were abused in childhood. That also can change the way the results happen.
            I know a young lady in her teens that thinks she should have been a boy. Will that be set in cement as she grows older? It can be. Or not, depending on how it is handled and how she develops later in life.
            It is as diverse as a person being left handed instead of right handed. There are people out there whose organs are reversed in such a way as the heart is on the wrong side of the body. This and others are extremely rare.
            One mutation had an Italian man with an 8 chambered heart.
            He was incredibly strong. Yet he required almost double the amount of food of a normal individual.
            What I am trying to say is what is normal for one is not normal for another person. And that is how it should be handled. GIven time it may or may not change. Given the changes of a child into adulthood a lot of development can happen. So making an issue out of it is just plain wrong. The key here is to patient with children growing up.
            I personally developed very late. I was 19 before I even got peach fuzz on my face and I still shave about once every 3 days whether I need to or not.
            I am not homosexual. But I was mistaken for one many times growing up because of my late maturity. My voice never did completely change and I am still a very high tenor when I sing in a choir.
            At 72, I am still occasionally mistaken for someone much younger than I am.
            I wish I could give you better answers. I can only be honest.

          • HazumuOsaragi

            Transgender is physiological. We are now finding definite structure differences in the brain that relate transgenders to those of the sex/gender they identify with – transwomen with women, and transmen with men. In other words, a transwoman’s brain is – in the areas that process sense of gendered-ness – more like a woman’s brain than a man’s brain. The commenter Zoe Brain has presented much of this medical evidence in replies to comments on this article.

            Given the changes of a child into adulthood a lot of development can happen. So making an issue out of it is just plain wrong. The key here is to patient with children growing up.

            I might add that another key is to accept that what the child is telling you about them is true for them. Transgenders are not ‘confused.’ But, transgenders are confusing. They are the exception to the rule that ‘outie’=masculine behaviour, while ‘innie’=feminine behaviour. What confuses people is that the configuration of external genitalia does not always match the expected behaviour and felt sense associated with that genitalia configuration.

            I’m still concerned about your conjecture as to whether and to what degree God might bring judgement, especially as you stated God is free to do anything that God wants to do. But then, that implies that no one is immune from adverse action by Him – not even those we deem to be pious and godly. it reminds me of something Stephen King wrote, a macabre take on the story of Job:

            When his life was ruined, his family killed, his farm destroyed, Job knelt down on the ground and yelled up to the heavens, ‘Why god? Why me?’ and the thundering voice of God answered, ‘There’s just something about you that pisses me off.’ -Stephen King

          • HazumuOsaragi

            P.S., May I commend you on your willingness to say “I don’t know” when that is the case? Though I’ve read your entire reply, in the interest of time I choose to concentrate on only one or two aspects and try for illumination. What you believe, and what you are certain of – and the boundaries of those beliefs/certainties – is what I wish to see illuminated.

            Thank you.

        • Josey

          Jesus is equal with God and they are one as is the Holy Spirit, there is no deference since Jesus is God. John1:1-5 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

  • Eugene Ararski

    Sad, sad, sad!!! 🙁

  • Akumanoid

    Degenerate and sickening.

  • Bruce Morrow

    The Church of England is apostate folks. Here in the United States the Episcoapl Church has been promoting and embracing homosexuality since 1976. I found this on the official website of the Episcopal Church USA:

    LGBT in the Church

    In 1976, the General Convention of the Episcopal Church declared that “homosexual persons are children of God who have a full and equal claim with all other persons upon the love, acceptance, and pastoral concern and care of the Church” (1976-A069(link is external)). Since then, faithful Episcopalians have been working toward a greater understanding and radical inclusion of all of God’s children.

    Along the way, The Episcopal Church has garnered a lot of attention, but with the help of organizations such as Integrity USA, the church has continued its work toward full inclusion of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) Episcopalians. In 2003, the first openly gay bishop was consecrated; in 2009, General Convention resolved that God’s call is open to all; and in 2012, a provisional rite of blessing for same-gender relationships was authorized, and discrimination against transgender persons in the ordination process was officially prohibited.

    To our lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender brothers and sisters: “The Episcopal Church welcomes you!”

  • women100

    I believe in USA it is called the Episcopalian church They fully embrace Gays as pastors so what is new with this group. God is marking it all down and will soon reply to the apostate churches of the world

    • Bobby Mae

      Transgender is not gay, sorry to inform you.

      • Josey

        It’s just not accepting the gender God gave you, it’s called rebellion.

        • Bobby Mae

          Ok? What are you even referring to? Do you have ADD?

  • Josey

    1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

  • martinhoran

    I love reading JC Ryle. Compared to the Anglicanism of today, he shows when it once was truly Christian–if Ryle is anyone to go by, that is. His book “Warnings to the Churches” (which every Christian should read) has obviously fallen on dear ears when it comes to the Anglican “Leadership.”