Lou Engle of The Call Kneels, Kisses Foot of Catholic Leader as Act of ‘Reconciliation’

Engle-compressedLOS ANGELES — Lou Engle of The Call is again raising concerns after a Roman Catholic leader prostrated at his feet on Saturday in declaring that he wanted to “kiss his feet” in an act of reconciliation between Christians and Catholics, and Engle returned the act by likewise kissing the man’s shoe.

The gesture took place during “Azusa Now,” an event hosted by The Call, which was attended by over 100,000 people at the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum.

“Believing that decades of globe-spanning prayer have saturated the heavens, we will boldly ask God for the rain of revival,” a description of the event states. “We will consecrate an entire day—15 hours—for the purpose of unity, miracles, healing, and the proclamation of the gospel.”

Engle had specifically invited Roman Catholics to attend the event.

“We just want to welcome our Catholic brothers and sisters from the Archdiocese of Los Angeles to gather together to pray,” he said in a promotional video. “Come join your brothers and sisters at the Memorial Coliseum believing for a move of unity and an outpouring of the Holy Spirit.”

One segment of the event featured Matteo Calisi, a Roman Catholic leader who had been appointed by “Pope Benedict” to serve on the Pontifical Council for the Laity, and had also served as president of the Catholic Fraternity of Charismatic Covenant Communities and Fellowships. Calisi founded United in Christ, an organization that strives for ecumenism between Christians and Catholics.

During the segment at Azusa Now, Calisi told the audience that division between Christians and Catholics is a “diabolical sin,” and that Jesus “doesn’t care” that Christians and Catholics disagree on biblical doctrine.

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“He doesn’t care about our differences,” he said through a translator. “We’re not going to be known by our differences … but for the love we have for one another.”

“We Catholics … we want to ask you Protestants for your forgiveness for not respecting the love of Jesus,” Calisi said. “Please give us your forgiveness and your mercy.”

He stated that he wanted to wash Engle’s feet on stage as a gesture of reconciliation, but since it was not possible, he desired to instead kiss his feet.

“We wanted to, Lou, kiss your feet as Catholics,” Calisi said, to which Engle nodded. “And just honor you with this gesture right now.”

Calisi then laid prostrate Engle’s feet, clutching one foot with his hands. Engle placed both hands upon Calisi’s back as he did so.

When Calisi stood, Engle moments later fell to the ground prostrate at Calisi’s feet and kissed one shoe, as others gathered around to lay hands on them. Calisi then spoke against what he called a “spirit of division” between Christians and Catholics.

While some characterized the gesture as a “tender moment,” others expressed deep concern.

“What’s up with Lou Engle letting the representative of the Catholic Church kiss his feet because it would logistically be impossible to wash his feet?” wrote one man from Brazil. “I seem to remember John falling at the feet of an angel … and the angel freaked out! He yanked John up onto his feet and admonished him for doing so. Worship God!!! was the charge set forth by this angelic being who understands the Kingdom of Heaven!”

“This kind of stuff must stop!!! I don’t care where it happens, the ‘holy environment’ it happens in, to whom the ‘honor’ is bestowed or the intentions behind it I call malarky!” he said.

“Besides all of the bad teaching etc., shame on Lou for letting anyone bow prostrate to him and kiss his feet,” another said. “What a big difference from true, biblical apostles like Paul who tore his garments and corrected such an error. The rampant, false teachings and practices in pockets of the American ‘church,’ makes me feel literally sick to my gut.”

The incident begins at approximately 6 hours 55 minutes into the video.

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  • Joshua Krug

    One, John was in the presence of an angel. Two, Paul and those with him tore their clothes because of a pagan sacrifice of bulls. Christ had his feet kissed.

  • Food for Thought…

    The New Apostolic Reformation is the LARGEST cancerous tumor affecting the Body of Christ today… My only solace is that i trust in the Sovereignty of the Lord and know He has all of their nonsense and heretical acts and teachings in the palm of His hand.

    • gogo0

      shame that god doesn’t care enough to expose this “fake” christianity that worships him the wrong way -sentencing a massive sect of his devoted followers to an eternity of torture in hell. thanks god!

      • melliott

        I realize this is probably going of topic but in one of your posts you wrote – i recall someone asking me what i had done, and i gave examples of when i was a christian… You now state you are an atheist. You may have already answered my question elsewhere but I would like to ask you what convinced you that there really is no god. My other question would be why do you care what anyone else believes as you seem very content with your world view. Why confront people with different views? If some don’t agree with you so what. I don’t understand what you get out of these exchanges. You seem to have better things to do than waste your time on this round-about.

        • gogo0

          actually the reason I post here is because while the board is mostly filled with hypocrisy and hate, sometimes there are respectful posts like yours above that can generate interesting conversation (and also picking apart the hypocritical posts is fun).

          I heard about Christopher Hitchens for the first time when he died and read his book “God Is Not Great” out of curiosity. it was about the third chapter when I stopped feeling angry while reading, thinking that the book was unfairly mocking my faith since I was a child (Assemblies of God member born and raised). It made me really think for a long time about why I believed in my god instead of any other ones, and I never came up with any good answer that I thought would convince myself if I heard it as an unbeliever or a follower of a different religion.

          mind that I am not convinced there is no god, I am simply convinced there is no defensible reason to believe in any particular god (or if there is, it hasn’t yet been discovered). coming to this conclusion actually saddened me, because I now have a tremendous interest in space and the beauty of the universe that I didn’t have when I believed it was simply willed into being instantly. I wish that when I was a kid I had that curiosity about how this immense thing and everything in it came to be what it is now, I may have had a career studying it, or at least I could have enjoyed it for a longer time.

          regarding my time, I have three total hours of commuting on the train each work day, so there I have plenty of down-time to read books, post on forums, listen to music, etc. just keeping myself occupied when the seats are taken and I have to stand for most of the trip =]

          • Bonnie Hyden

            YHVH, The One True God, actually doesn’t mind those who question. I appreciate your honesty and openness. And I’m not going to offer debate, rebuttal or such. I just wanted to let you know I’ll be praying for YHVH, Himself, to answer your questions. I realize that’s the only way you’re going to see and understand. Keep your eyes open for answers. Our Father is faithful. Blessings to you, gogo0.

      • Food for Thought…

        God will…. In God’s time. Not yours. If you actually read, study, and knew the Word instead of thinking conferences or events like the one Engle and his boys put on where they throw out all sound doctrine to “reconcile themselves” with Catholics cand calling them “brothers and sisters” in the name of “unity”, when Catholics clearly don’t believe the doctrines of Grace and Salvation through Christ alone…Along with the other unbiblical nonsense that went on there, you might actually know that… So save your pathetic sarcasm for people who don’t know any better and read and study your Bible more instead of listening to these false prophets.

        • gogo0

          no sarcasm when I say I think it is very sad that if the christian god is real, billions of devout followers who prayed to him over the course of history are now suffering eternal damnation for having done it wrong.

          • Food for Thought…

            And what about the generations of people in tribal countries who never got hear His Gospel? What about those who simply never set foot in a church? What about those that Christians simply don’t love enough or care enough about to share the Good News with? What mass genocides like the Holocaust that slaughter millions of people of which, at least in the case of WWII, certainly didn’t know Christ as Messiah or maybe even had some really proclaim Him with sound arguments?

            Yes my friend, there certainly are lots of questions we can’t answer, and we certainly have a more finite understand of the universe, and things like grace, mercy, and justice than God does… I don’t claim to have all the answers to such things, but I do know that God’s ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts and are much higher than ours ever could be according to the Scriptures… And when it comes to true salvation the road is indeed narrow and few find it. Bless you on your journey friend and I pray (even though after reading your post below, I know you probably don’t care about that) that you truly would encounter Jesus.

          • gogo0

            well, those are very sad too. it’s a real shame that being misguided, poor, remote, or unfortunate in other ways can result in being bathed in everlasting fire.

          • Food for Thought…

            We all fall short my friend and in some ways are all those things that you mentioned… That’s why Jesus came. It is also why I have given my life as a missionary to go and share the news about Him with the misguided, poor, remote and unfortunate other ways so they won’t be bathed in the wrath of God…

          • marg

            Actually Christians believe that GOD takes that into account when those people come before Him. They are given that chance at that time. I feel awfully sorry for you gogo0. You have no answer before God, You have seen and heard the word and turned away.. That is the saddest of all. It is also not the manor in which we worship God, it is the heart. And please do not go on and on about all the mean nasty Christians you have met. I am a pastors wife, believe me when I say some of the totally meanest and nastiest people I have ever come across have sat in pews week after week. It is the heart. YOU know them by their fruits. A true Christian never claims to be perfect, they are foolish if they do. I know I am far from perfect, but my faith is in Christ, and Him only. Through Him are we made perfect, only because He is perfect. To reject God because of what you see in the church is sad, just sad.

          • gogo0

            small point of clarification, but i didnt become an unbeliever because of how some churches and believers act, but because i found no reason to believe the christian god, or any other, actually exists

          • ComeOnPeople!

            There are no atheists in fox holes. One day you like myself will come to a place where you have no way out and need a savior. For my it was a child who had snuck into our car to read. Opened the back seat and crawled into the trunk, closing the seat behind her. Two parents raced around frantically to find their baby girl of 4. We would have never known or ever dreamed she had the ability to open a back seat, but someone did know beyond this world. I ran to the front yard, He to the back yard both of us in panic but pleading with God to help us. He spoke to me and my husband at the same time and we both met at the trunk of the car. There we found our babygirl, limp and pouring sweat. She would have died that day without that God you claim is not real. Neither one of us would have ever thought to look in the trunk of our car. So deny Him if you must but if you are ever in deep trouble, I hope you can humble yourself enough to believe in a God you cannot see.

          • gogo0

            it’s fantastic that you saved a life, but you dont need god to do that, just common sense to check the entirety of the last place ypu saw her.

            perhaps your convictions are so weak that the fear of death would cause you to abandon them, but mine are not.

          • disqus_BgMFAOCZgs

            Read Romans 1

          • ComeOnPeople!

            We have a righteous Judge. He will judge righteously . Believe me , no one will be placed in hell that didn’t choose it. We all have a free will and a conscious . No matter where we are, even if we are on a remote island. The Spirit of God draws all men & it is man who makes the choice whether to serve God or not. We will be judge by what we knew & did with what we knew. The bible says no man shall be without excuse because God sent His Spirit back to lead and guide men into all truth. Those who truly seek Him find Him. He will not force Himself upon anyone. He is Love and Love once forced is no longer Love.

          • Food for Thought…

            Sorry that is the only kind of Christianity you’ve been exposed to… That’s not all that’s out there friend.

          • Manus

            If anyone rot in hell that’s not because “having done it wrong” but because not having done it right.

          • Hatch Jerod

            If you are not part of the body of Christ this is foolishness to you, as you have implied. Why are you even bothering? Have a Coke and a smile.

      • Food for Thought…

        Yeah… Yeah… I just read your other comment below… Kid who grew up in the church gone agnostic… Yet still feels the need to follow what is going on in the Christian world… interesting choice of using your time. As you will.

        • gogo0

          christianity and other religions insist on ruling over the secular world, it would be a mistake not to keep tabs on how they want to control my and other peoples’ lives

          • Hatch Jerod

            Yet you own a smartphone, use google engines, and probably use palm or finger print ID for convenience. Who is ruling the world? Not the 3rd world church where the truth of the Gospel is seeing exponential growth.

  • Observer

    Christians and Catholics? Catholics ARE Christians. 2000 years since Christ started the church with St. Peter.

    • Becky

      No. You’re gravely mistaken.

    • Curtis Cutler

      If you affirm RC doctrine you cannot be a Christian.

      • Ronald Carter

        Catholicism was all there WAS for hundreds of years.

        • cadcoke5

          Around 300 AD is when you start to see doctrines like the priesthood, an veneration of the saints emerging in the RC church. But, the deity of Christ has always been upheld, which is not characteristic of false religions.

          Though, the official doctrine of the RC church is that your past sins are forgiven up to the point your believe. But after that moment, you must work off your sin by doing good deeds, or by suffering now or later in purgatory. This sounds like salvation by works, which is not Christian. Though, the past pope spelled out that salvation is by faith alone. So, it gets a bit confusing about where they stand.

          But, most Catholics that I have spoken to, are unaware of this doctrine of purgatory. As for me, I am in a state of mortal sin and destine to Hell according to what I have read on RC doctrine, since I deny the infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and doctrine.

          There will always be those who are not part of the body of Christ among the true believers, until He takes us to heaven. And, even some churches that have bad doctrine, will have some true believers in them.

          • Ronald Carter

            Catholics believe in a combination of faith by grace and good works. Both things together.

            You are allowed to deny the infallibility of the pope and still call yourself a Christian, no Catholic would deny that. But it seems there are plenty of people who seem to want to deny that Catholics are Christians, despite the fact that they believe in the trinity, celebrate the birth, death and resurrection of Christ and count on him for everlasting life, and follow the Bible.

          • marg

            You are wrong on that. When the pope makes a doctrinal statement from his chair, he is considered infallible and therefore if you do not believe what he says you sin. Catholics who put their faith in a man (who they believe to be infallible) do so against scripture. Any church which tells their people that they can’t read the Bible is trying to keep their people in bondage to false doctrine.

          • Ronald Carter

            Have you ever looked into how many times a pope has sat ex cathedra over the centuries? You could count the number of times on one hand.
            Which means most popes have never claimed infallibility.

            As for the pope himself, he is merely the human leader of the Catholic Church, just like your church has a human leader. And he teaches in support of scripture, not against it. If you don’t like Catholics or have been taught to, fine, but they are Christians. If they aren’t, then you can’t possibly be either.

          • FD

            Around the year 300 is when the Holy Spirit abandoned his Church? Can you be more specific? When did He come back? When was it made right again? With Luther? Calvin? Brigham Young? Joel Osteen?

            Purgatory is in the Bible. It’s right after the part about the Trinity and where Jesus tells his disciples to celebrate Christmas. Luke 16 or something.

            And you have just about everything else completely wrong, regarding works, and infallibility, etc. No biggie, just misinformed by Anti-Catholics. What RC doctrine did you specifically read on Purgatory.

          • marg

            Have you actually READ Luke 16 or something???? I don’t think so. Purgatory is not in the Bible, anywhere. And “Christmas” is actually never once mentioned in scripture. See what I mean about a church who tells their people not to read the bible?? They know nothing are easily lied to.

          • Maria Chapeskie

            Doctrine is doctrine. What’s going on in the heart is another matter. Does the person love according to the 1st and 2nd commandment? If so, I think they’re in.

        • ComeOnPeople!

          Quotes from a search online…

          “That the Church of Rome has shed more innocent blood than any other institution that has ever existed among mankind, will be questioned by no Protestant who has a competent knowledge of history . . . It is impossible to form a complete conception of the multitude of her victims, and it is quite certain that no powers of imagination can adequately realize their sufferings.” (W. E. H. Lecky, History of the Rise and Influence of the Spirit of Rationalism in Europe, vol. 2, p. 32, 1910 edition)

          “On August 24, 1527, Roman Catholics in France, by prearranged plan, under Jesuit influence, murdered 70,000 Protestants within the space of two months. The Pope rejoiced when he heard the news of the successful outcome.” (Western Watchman, Nov.21, 1912 (Catholic)

          “There was no village of the Vaudois valleys but had its martyrs. The Waldenses were burned; they were cast into damp and horrid dungeons; they were smothered in crowds in mountain caverns, mothers and babes, and old men and women together; they were sent out into exile in the winter night, unclothed and unfed, to climb the snowy mountains; they were hurled over the rocks; their houses and lands were taken from them; their children were stolen to be indoctrinated with the religion which they abhorred. Rapacious individuals were sent among them to strip them of their property, to persecute and exterminate them. Thousands of heretics or Waldenses, old men, women and children, were hung, quartered, broken upon the wheel, or burned alive and their property confiscated for the benefit of the king, and Holy See.” (Thompson – The Papacy and the Civil Power)

          “From the birth of popery to the present time, it is estimated by careful and credible historians, that more than fifty millions of the human family, have been slaughtered for the crime of heresy by popish persecutors,–an average of more than 40,000 religious murders for every year of the existence of popery to the present day. Of course the average number of victims yearly, was vastly greater, during those gloomy ages when popery was in her glory and reigned despot of the world; and it has been much less since the power of the popes has diminished to tyrannize over the nations, and to compel the princes of the earth, by the terrors of excommunication, interdiction, and deposition, to butcher their heretical subjects.” (John Dowling, The History of Romanism, pp. 541-542)

          “The church may by divine right confiscate the property of heretics, imprison their person, and condemn them to flames. In our age, the right to inflict the severest penalties, even death, belongs to the church. There is no graver offense than heresy, therefore it must be rooted out.” (Public Eccliastical, Vol. 2, p.142) Hmmm oh yes let’s kiss their feet. COME ON PEOPLE!

          Mr. Raywood Frazier, in the booklet ‘Catholic Words and Actions’, presents documentary proof of the intensive persecution of Protestants and non-Catholics in Columbia, South America, between 1949 and 1953. The Catholic Church had the support of the Columbian government in the destruction of many churches, and the liquidation of more than 1,000 documented cases — some of whom were shot, drowned, or emasculated. He says there is evidence of over 60,000 killed. Pope Pius XII awarded the President of Columbia with one of the highest awards which the Church bestows, and praised Columbia for its example of the Catholic faith. (Pp. 59,60)

          “Their refusal to surrender the scriptures was an offense that the Papacy could not tolerate. The Papacy was determined to exterminate the heretics from the face of the Earth. The heretics greatest offense, was that they refused to worship God according to the will of the Pope. For this crime, the heretics suffered every humiliation, insult and torture that man could event.” (Fox’s Book Of Martyrs) Tortures: 1) Hanged and their genitals were cut off. 2) The mothers were whipped. 3) The women’s breast were ripped off. 4) They were tied up and fried in a large pan. 5) Their mouths were sewed shut. 6) They were placed into a pot of boiling water. 7) Their arms and legs were cut off. 8) Some had their eyes bored out.

          On March 12, 2000, Pope John Paul II ADMITTED the Roman Catholic Church KILLED the Christians.

          “The tragical sufferings of the Protestants are too numerous to detail; but the treatment of Philip de Deux will give an idea of the rest. After the miscreants had slain this martyr in his bed, they went to his wife, who was then attended by the midwife, expecting every moment to be delivered. The midwife entreated them to stay the murder, at least till the child, which was the twentieth, should be born. Notwithstanding this, they thrust a dagger up to the hilt into the poor woman. Anxious to be delivered, she ran into a corn loft; but hither they pursued her, stabbed her in the belly, and then threw her into the street. By the fall, the child came from the dying mother, and being caught up by one of the Catholic ruffians, he stabbed the infant, and then threw it into the river.” (Fox’s Book of Martyrs, Chapter IV, The Bartholomew Massacre at Paris, etc.)

          This church is NOT a church of the one true God, but that of another. There is no other church or religion or institution that has such a “bloody” history like that of the Papal Church of Rome. And history repeats itself. The word teaches us to mark those who cause division and not to eat with them. Sorry but NO … a true believer and studier of the word of God will never be join with others who so blatantly are opposed to the words of God. Who are so pagan in their worship and so prideful that they say a pope has the write to change what God has said. PLEASE! REALLY! NOT! I’m no feet kisser, so I may be on the Catholic hit list again one day.

          • cadcoke5

            “That the Church of Rome has shed more innocent blood than any other institution that has ever existed among mankind, will be questioned by no Protestant who has a competent knowledge of history ”

            Hitler’s victims are counted in the millions. Stalin, and his atheist faith outdid Hitler by a long shot. The atheist faith would seem to have out done those who falsely claim to be Christians. And while the abortion Holocaust is not specifically associated with any specific group, it is certainly not attributable to the true Christian faith. The Roman Catholic church is a very strong advocate for the unborn. So, perhaps in the countries where they dominate, their influence have saved many more people than what they have killed historically.

          • Ronald Carter

            An organization as old as the Catholic church, especially when the church was a ruling body, is bound to be beset with corruption, and yet it’s among the oldest of Christian churches and it has remained. It is difficult to take seriously criticism from extremely new Fundamentalist sects and cults.

          • ComeOnPeople!

            It is difficult to take seriously those who won’t study their history , nor study scripture enough to know what it says and therefore follow after and believe everything handed to them by media and men.

          • Ronald Carter

            Couldn’t agree more. But Catholic haters don’t care about facts or history.

          • Cadasilva

            “and yet it’s among the oldest of Christian churches and it has remained..”

            God is not looking at which church is young or which is old. He`s looking for faithful and obedient Christians which can be found in any church (yes, even the 44.000 “protestant” churches out ) there AT THIS POINT. However, the call has been made “Come out of her my people, lest ye share in her plagues”. There`s an appointed time where that call is no more. You`re either in Babylon with the devil and his disciples or with the Lamb and His disciples. “Let him who are filthy remain filthy, let him who is righteous, remain righteous; Behold, i`m coming quickly”. You see, there`ll be no Catholic, Mormon, JW, Evangelical, Lutheran, etc; etc; etc; at this point. Everyone will have taken their DOCTRINAL stance by than. The Word of God is plain and clear on this. ONLY those, who “Keep the commandments of God AND have the testimony of Jesus” will enter into the Holy City.

          • Ronald Carter

            People can be faithful and obedient Christians without pointing fingers at other Christians, telling them what they’re doing right or wrong and correcting one another. I think that’s part of the reason there’s so much opposition to Christianity, is there’s so much snobbery and people insisting that they’re doing it right and everyone else is doing it wrong.

        • Curtis Cutler

          Catholic as in the universal church NOT Roman Catholic

          • Ronald Carter

            Both are Christian.

          • Curtis Cutler

            Non I will say it is possible for those who come under the banner of Roman catholisim who are trust in Jesus alone and ignorant of RC theology….but once one is introduced to such a system they should depart.

          • Ronald Carter

            And they would feel the same about Christian fundamentalism.

          • Curtis Cutler

            Ronald I would advise anyone to run run from a theological system that violates essential biblical doctrines. I don’t care what title you put on it.

          • Ronald Carter

            It does no such thing, Curtis. What’s bothering you here is that Catholics are not “Bible-only” Christians. That is a doctrine that came many, many years AFTER Catholicism. You elected to discard church teachings and sacred traditions, which Catholics utilize IN ADDITION TO scripture.
            So anytime you see something you can’t justify with the Bible you assume a violation of doctrine but you don’t look to the other sources…sources which YOU chose to discard but which the other churches did not.

          • Curtis Cutler

            It should bother any one who takes scripture seriously. You cannot make a valid argument in regards to when some doctrines are codified in time. The RC church has came up with many doctrines long after the cannon was put together. Example the Marian dogmas…1800’s …the question that matters is IS THE DOCTRINE SCRIPTURAL?
            Jesus always used scripture and held God’s word in the highest regard to argue agains tax men and the devil.
            Especially when he rebukes the pharasees for making tradition that violates God’s word.
            And your point about about me being assuming violation because I can’t see it in some scripture in not true…there are many truths that can be deduced from a systematic view of the scriptures.

          • Ronald Carter


            Any time you hear this phrase you know you’re dealing with a Christian fundamentalist. Because it absolutely INSISTS that the Bible and ONLY the Bible is the source of Christian instruction. And that’s nice for you but the fact is not all Christians are Bible-only. Sola Scriptura is YOUR rule, and you are insisting that everyone else must play by it. Sorry, it doesn’t work that way. There’s a whole lot of history you’re discarding. And on whose authority are you discarding it? Is it because it’s “man made”? Well, tell me the Bible isn’t man-made. With all the different translations of it, it sure seems adaptable to me.

          • Curtis Cutler

            I quite sure you may not understand what these differences in translation mean. A translation derives from manuscript sources that are 98% textually pure aside from small textual variants such as = homophony, fission ,fussion,or copist mistake ect…these small variants hold NO bearing on the doctrine we can derive from a reliable manuscript source of around 27,000 manuscripts .
            A translation at least a major one with scholarship behind it is written in diffrent ways for understanding….ex= the nasb is a literal word for word translation…the NIV is thought for thought.
            ESV is a happy mixture.
            If you hold to 2 tim 3:16 you would agree with me that all scripture is God breathed and profitable for reproof and correction and sufficient for the man of God.
            You can also find a wide definition of fundamentalist. .and it can be implied to athiests and yes to Romans catholics who just adhere blindly to the magisterums teaching.
            I believe what I believe through research and textual criticism. And grace.
            I think you need to on a serious level look at the Scriptures and compare them to the teaching of any church…that is if you wish to be a good BAREAN.

          • Ronald Carter

            A Berean, of course. The biggest Catholic haters of them all outside of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

            I will abstain from further conversation with you.

          • Curtis Cutler

            Uhh I don’t know what you are referring too unless you assume I’m affiliated with some SDA…I’m not..bad assumtion. I’m referring to the Scriptures in acts 17…?

            10 The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, [j]and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, [k]for they received the word with [l]great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed, [m]along with a number of prominent Greek women and men.

          • Curtis Cutler

            Secondly you assume I hate Roman catholics …nope just speaking plain in this discourse about doctrine and truth.

        • marg

          It was the making of the Catholic church and all it’s laws and “thou shalt nots” that started the Reformation!!! It was a calling to the Catholic Church to repent and turn back to the way Christ had wanted the church to be and was in the beginning. They refused to do that…..

      • FD

        You mean like the doctrine of the Trinity which was affirmed at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD? By the Magisterium, which is order of Bishops led by the Pope. That’s nowhere in Scripture.


        Or how about the actual canon of the New Testament which was affirmed by the Catholic Church at the councils of Hippo (393 AD) and Carthage (397 AD, 419 AD).

        If you accept 4 Gospels instead of 6 or 8 and 2 letters to the Corinthians, instead of the 5 that were floating around at the time, then you have the Catholic Church to thank.

        Hope you don’t celebrate Christmas, bro. That was made up by the Church too in the 3rd and 4th centuries to commemorate Christ’s birth. No where in (Sola) Scripture does Jesus command his disciples to commemorate his birthday and exchange gifts and put up a tree with ornaments. If you do, you’re obviously going to Hell. Lol.

        And I seriously hope you don’t have a nativity set in your home, with little graven images of Mary and St Joseph and Angels.

        • Curtis Cutler

          Nope the doctrine of the trinity is good and have no gripe with the things mentioned above….
          paragraph 2068 of CCC I have real issue with. It violates biblical essentials.
          The Marian dogmas
          The eucharist
          Infused grace baptism
          These are all traditions that violate the word of God.

        • ComeOnPeople!

          Sorry man does not get to define God the bible itself difines Him. The doctrine of the trinity is man made and yes was made in Nicea 325 AD. Yet a triune godhead had been around in pagan religions centuries before that. Anything with 3 heads is a freak. Sorry but the true God of creation is ONE. He is a Spirit, He became flesh and dwelt among us and sent back His Spirit to lead and guide us into all truth. He never was or ever will be 3 persons. The only person was the fleshly body (son) He took on to redeem man. As to Christmas ? Again a man made tradition. Easter? Man made tradition. Sunday worship? Yep again. All of these you can find instituted by man not by God. Therefore I choose rather to serve God as pleases Him and not to be carried away by every whim of doctrine. I left traditions & doctrines of men a long time ago , choosing rather to serve the God of Abraham, Issac, Jacob & the promised Messiah, in the beauty of Holiness. No 3 headed gods, no tinsel and lights, no bunny and eggs, no 1st day of the week sabbaths, just a relationship with the Lover of my soul.

        • Cadasilva

          “….That was made up by the Church too….”

          Thanks for clarifying everything in this one statement.

    • Ronald Carter

      You mean to tell me there are actually people here who don’t believe Catholics are Christians? What kind of place is this?

      • Lourdes Ortiz

        Yes. And there are Catholics here who don’t believe they are Christians. It wasn’t very long ago (up until the 90’s) when Catholics would be highly offended if they were asked if they were Christians. They would proudly proclaim that they were Roman Catholics and always mocked Christians by calling us, “the Halleluyahs!”

    • Manus


    • Jeremiah Clarke

      Nope! You really need to take some time to learn history. Catholics persecuted Christians and anybody else who did not accept that the pope was Christ’s only representative on earth. Same goes for the lie that Christians were behind the Crusades. That was the Catholic church who used the name of Christ to justify what they did. Again, there are HUGE differences and a thorough study of history will prove that fact.

  • Becky

    “‘During the segment at Azusa Now, Calisi told the audience that division between Christians and Catholics is a ‘diabolical sin,’ and that Jesus ‘doesn’t care’ that Christians and Catholics disagree on biblical doctrine. ‘He doesn’t care about our differences,’ he said through a translator. ‘We’re not going to be known by our differences … but for the love we have for one another.'”

    Oh, but we have enormous differences. These are just a few…Firstly, the Catholic church admittedly changed the 7th day Sabbath to the first day of the week, sunday. That is the reason most of the world attends church on sunday and not because Christ supposedly abolished the law. The Sabbath is the fourth commandment and meant to be kept by all (Exodus 20:8-11). It is a sign that we are God’s people and he is our God (Ezekiel 20:12). Secondly, they’re idolaters (virgin mary, virgin guadalupe, rosary, etc). Thirdly, they’re false teachers regarding death, sin confessions to priests, baptism, communion, etc.,.

    It matters a great deal to Christ what the differences are, because if we’re not doing the will of God we will not be saved. Christ taught us to keep God’s commandments. The bible clearly teaches…

    “Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.” Revelation 14:12.

    “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.” 1 John 5:3

    “For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” Matthew 12:50

    • Ronald Carter

      You know that’s crazy, right? Everything you wrote sounds like it came out of a Jack Chick comic book.

    • Ah, the New Testament Church gathered on the 1st day of the week. The Sabbath was just a shadow of Christ and was fulfilled in Him, just as the dietary commandments are now obsolete. The New Testament explicitly denies the obligation of the Saturday Sabbath (Rom. 14:5).

      • Becky

        Christ clearly said in Matthew 5:17 that he came to fulfill the law and not destroy it, so how is it obsolete?? Especially since he said in verses 18-19, ““For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” Has all been fulfilled? No, obviously. Has heaven and earth passed away? Again, no, obviously. So, we are to obey God’s commandments, because Christ commanded that they’re still in effect.

        Christ said in verse 20, “For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.” The scribes/Pharisees were experts in God’s law and they taught the law as well. In fact, Matthew 23:1-3 says, “Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.” Christ knew they were hypocrites (Matthew 23:13), but they did teach observance of God’s laws and, clearly, Christ wanted them (disciples, multitude & all) to obey his laws. It’s clear, God’s law wasn’t destroyed, nothing from it was changed and it’s to be obeyed by all “till all is fulfilled”.

        • The Sabbath was only a shadow of the rest found in the righteousness of Christ. Seventh Day Adventists seek to establish their own righteousness through the works of the Law and hence fall under the condemnation of the Law. The Gospel is of no value to such people. You must be born again. Jesus Christ declared all foods clean, yet the SBA denies this. Jesus Christ declared salvation is found only by faith in Him, and the SDA denies this. The SDA has followed its false prophetess back to the bondage of the Law and self righteousness. Ellen G. White was a deceiver.

          “But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.”
          (1Ti 1:5-7 NAS)

          • Armed Citizen

            please show Scripture, very well defined Scripture, which clearly spells out how a Commandment is now not to be kept by Christians.

            or do we not honor the Commandments, Sir?

          • Armed Citizen

            IF you love me-keep my Commandments‘ – John 14:15

            also review:
            1 John 2:3-4
            Rev 22:14

            which other Commandments are now optional, Sir?

          • Jesus did away with the dietary Law. The ceremonial aspects of the Law are obsoleted by the coming of Christ. The moral Law as a standard of right and wrong still serves its proper role. But the Law as a way to salvation was never valid. The book of Hebrews clearly states that Christ instituted a new and better covenant and the covenant of Moses was superseded by that New Covenant.
            If you wish to be under the Law, you must first be circumcised according to the Law and then you are under obligation to keep ALL the commandments. If you fail, you are condemned by the Law for that is its power. Salvation is only in Christ.
            Ellen G. White, that false prophetess, was not content with bring people under the condemnation of the Law but added a myriad of her own commandments and false revelations. The HRM people do the same. They are but wannabe pharisees.

          • Armed Citizen

            i agree that no law is way to salvation, but He did not do away with the Commandments.
            where did He do away with the dietary law? from what i read in Isaiah, there will be some in the last days ‘eating swines flesh’. never in the entire Bible did God call anything an ‘abomination’ and then call them clean.
            ‘if you wish to be under the law’ – why? because i honor the Holy Sabbath and keep His Day as such? because i don’t bow to the day of the pagan sun, as catholicism wants me to?

            i don’t and never have studied Ms. White. the Bible is all this Christian needs.

            i see you either ignored my post above or are content that Scripture calls you a ‘Liar’.
            you are a false teacher f you are a pastor. the Bible shows this without doubt.

          • Armed Citizen

            try looking at my question above, Sir. answer it with the Bible please.
            if you are able, that is.

          • @disqus_ekjtFVeBOp:disqus : “Jesus did away with the dietary Law.”

            That by definition means Jesus gave the go ahead to eat diseased (unclean) meat. Hmmm… poison frogs. Yum, blowfish!

            This is taking the side of the Pharisees seeking to condemn Jesus! Because in Jesus doing this, He’s sinninig according to (Deut 4:2;12:32;13; Ps 111;119; Is 8:20;66; etc.)! As it’s sin to add or remove from the law of God.

            @disqus_ekjtFVeBOp:disqus : “The ceremonial aspects of the Law are obsoleted by the coming of Christ. The moral Law as a standard of right and wrong still serves its proper role.”

            Ceremonial law: Earthly sacrifices.
            Moral law: Every other law God gave.

            If absolute truth (Psalms 119:142,151) is changeable, then it was neither absolute nor truth.

            The ceremonial law came to an end here on Earth, because of the Heavenly Sanctuary. How we determine good from evil (Deuteronomy 30) is unchanging.

            @disqus_ekjtFVeBOp:disqus : “The book of Hebrews clearly states that Christ instituted a new and better covenant and the covenant of Moses was superseded by that New Covenant.”

            Out of context. Paul was quoting Jeremiah 31 which was a prophecy made based on the events when the first covenant was made with Israel and they broke it and that the new covenant is about having the same law as in the old covenant, inside the heart.

            Old covenant: “URgh… do I really have to worship this invisible God without making a graven image?”
            New covenant: “I will not worship God in having graven images, because I love Him.”

            You are in the old covenant because you see His commandments, laws and judgements are grievous and burdensome, as well as a restriction of your liberty to sin (transgress the law 1 Jn 3:4).

            @disqus_ekjtFVeBOp:disqus : “If you wish to be under the Law, you must first be circumcised according to the Law and then you are under obligation to keep ALL the commandments.”

            Misapplication. To be under the law does not mean to keep it, but rather condemned by it. Homosexuals, as an example, are under the law. Clearly sin still have dominion over them.

            For sin will not have dominion over you, because you’re not under the law, but under favor.
            – Romans 6:14

            @disqus_ekjtFVeBOp:disqus : “Ellen G. White, that false prophetess, was not content with bring people under the condemnation of the Law but added a myriad of her own commandments and false revelations. The HRM people do the same. They are but wannabe pharisees.”

            So let me get this straight… For thousands of years the adversary tried to get God’s people to break and annul His commandments, laws and judgments. Now, after Jesus, he has to get people to keep them? So he uses Ellen G. White and adventists and the HRM people to do this?

            The Pharisees of Jesus’ time today is people that says they worship God, that says they are good people, but have no reverence for the law of God, because they make His commandments of none effect by their traditions and commandments of men.

            Lol, in all the prophets of the old testament, they always called forth a repentance, a turning back from sin to the law. But in the new testament, if someone were to do that, they are an agent of satan?

            To the law and to the testimony, if they do not speak according to this Word, it is because they have no light in them. […] For the commandment is a lamp, the law is light and the reproofs of instruction are the way of life. […] Woe to them that calls good evil, and evil good; that puts darkness for light and light for darkness.

            – Isaiah 8:20; Proverbs 6:23; Isaiah 5:23

          • Becky

            Don’t know much about the “SDA”, but I know that what I believe is according to scripture. The scriptures do not teach that the fourth commandment Sabbath, given to us from the beginning (Genesis 2:1-3), was only a shadow of things to come (Colossians 2:16,17). It says in the preceding verses (14-15), “having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.”

            Firstly, God’s law was never called the handwriting of requirements. God’s law was written by his finger (Exodus 31:18). Moses wrote the ordinances, or handwriting of requirements (2 Chronicles 33:8, Deuteronomy 31:24).


          • Becky

            Secondly, God’s Ten Commandments have never been against/contrary to us. Moses ordered the Levites to put the book of the law (ordinances, handwriting of requirements) beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord, “…that it may be there as a witness against you; for I know your rebellion and your stiff neck.” Deuteronomy 31:26-27. So, it was the ordinances that were against us.

          • Becky

            Thirdly, God’s Ten Commandments are perfect, “The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul; the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;” Psalm 19:7 (Psalm 119:172). In Deuteronomy 6, God commands Israel to keep the Ten Commandments within their hearts (vs6). Paul said, “What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet…Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.” Romans 7:7, 12. Even from the book you submitted it says, “But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully…” 1Timothy 1:8.

            God’s Ten Commandments convert an unrighteous person to a righteous person. It’s absurd to think that Paul was talking about the fourth commandment Sabbath in Colossians 2:16, especially since he always kept the Sabbath (Acts 17:2; 18:4; 13:14, 27, 42, 44; 16:13).

          • Cadasilva

            “Seventh Day Adventists……”
            There are over 200 groups of Sabbath keeping Christians in the US. Including 7th Day Baptists.

            ” seek to establish their own righteousness through the works of the Law ”

            1st of all, even if there is ONE single person in the entire planet who`s keeping God`s Commandments to build his/her own righteousness, it would be impossible for you to know it, for God only can read the intents of the heart. God`s command for YOU to keep it, with HIS help. Not to ignore it because you THINK someone or a multitude is keeping as works. BTW, do you really want to know who IS trying to establish their own righteousness by keeping the 10 commandments?. look no further than you local synagogue. The truth is, no Jesus, no righteousness to keep the Law of love.

            “…and hence fall under the condemnation of the Law”.
            You`re only under condemnation IF and WHEN you break the Law. Have you cheated on your wife today?. No? Then you`re condemned by the Law. Have you looked at a woman and lusted after her?. If you did, you are condemned by the Law. You just broke it. Have you broken the 4th commandment of the Law recently?. You are under the
            condemnation of the Law, for sin IS the transgression of the Law and the wages of sin is death. You must repent of that sin and take heed of Jesus command “Now go, and SIN NO MORE”. Don`t try excuses, HE JUST SAW YOU DO IT !.
            “Jesus Christ declared all foods clean” – There no such verse to confirm this. Even a 3rd grader knows by now by now that Peter`s vision was not about food but PEOPLE. When The Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross, nothing happened to the pig, he was filthy before and is still filthy now. All unclean animals are still unclean. God cares for His children`s health. Now that you know what God really thinks about your health, He expects you to do His will. Eat what is clean, live healthier, longer and bring more people His gospel.

            “Jesus Christ declared salvation is found only by faith in Him” . Yes, but there`s no such a thing as an disobedient faith. That`s what got eve deceived in the first place. All those who`ll be saying “Lord, Lord, didn`t i go to church, didn`t i join the ecumenical movement, didn`t i reconcile with Rome?, didn`t i observe the new 1st day of the week Sabbath?” Think they are being obedient aren`t they? What does Jesus answer? “Depart from me ye doers of iniquity”.

            I Tit 1:5-7. – 1st, When Paul mentions a sincere faith, he`s talking about an faith unto obedience. “love from a pure heart” The Law of God is a Law of love and without it our hearts can not be pure but “deceiving above all things”. He then speaks of those who stray from OBEYING the Law and want to be teachers of it, leading to TRANSGRESSION OF IT.

            You should leave the church you`re attending if they teach continuous sinning, transgression to God`s commandments, Lawlessness. Such institution has not even a reason to have its doors open.

          • You are ignorant of the Scriptures:
            What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
            10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
            11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
            12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
            13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
            14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
            15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
            16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
            17 And the way of peace have they not known:
            18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
            19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
            20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
            21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
            22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
            23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
            24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
            25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
            26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
            (Rom 3:9-26 KJV)

          • Ya’akov (James)

            Good afternoon sir, you assert the dietary restrictions were lifted by Messiah and you quote Mark 7 to prove it.
            Some questions for you.
            1. The players in the narrative, are they all Hebrews? If so, when two Hebrews are discussing “food”, what do they mean by the word “food”? Is it whatever they choose to put in their mouths, or what G-D describes as “food for you” in Leviticus?
            2. The Master was accused of many things. Why wasn’t this one of them?
            3. Through the prophet Amos, Yehoveh said he does nothing without revealing first to his prophets. Where is it foretold the dietary restrictions would be done away with?
            Awaiting your answers. Peace.

          • “The Sabbath was only a shadow of the rest found in the righteousness of Christ.”

            Christ gives us tranquility (rest=anapausis) if we take His servitude or yoke, and we labor to enter into His Kingdom (rest=katapausis), but the Sabbath was instituted as a memorial of His Creation.

            “Seventh Day Adventists seek to establish their own righteousness through the works of the Law and hence fall under the condemnation of the Law.”

            Invalid definition of the words.

            Righteousness: Doing that which is right, or right-doing.

            Self-righteousness: Doing that which is right according to self, despite what others say.

            Christ-righteousnesss: Doing that which is right according to Christ, despite what others say, including one self.

            To the law and to the testimony, if they do not speak according to this Word, it is because they have no light in them. […] For the commandment is a lamp, the law is light, and the reproofs of instruction is the way of life.
            – Isaiah 8:20, Proverbs 6:23

            Declaring one’s own righteousness is speaking contrary to the law of God. Following after God’s righteousness is keeping His law. God will not call someone who is doing that which is right (righteous) evil. Neither will He call someone who is doing that which is wrong (unrighteous) good.

            As for your Timothy 1:5-7 is speaking about people who want to be teachers of the law, but doesn’t really teach the law of God.



      • Becky

        So, you’re saying that Paul, a Pharisee (Acts 23:6), an expert in God’s law, took it upon himself to teach that the fourth commandment, the Sabbath, blessed and sanctified by God Almighty, the day that sets God’s people apart, was no longer an “obligation”? And in just two verses (5&6) within a chapter concerning mostly food/eating? You’re sorely misinterpreting Romans 14. Paul began the discussion about food and ended the discussion about food.

        The Sabbath is never mentioned in Romans 14, nor is there mention of worship. In verses 5 and 6, the term “day” isn’t referring to the Sabbath day and the terms esteem and regard of the “day” are not synonymous with obedience of the Sabbath, or worshiping God. Take note, if the Pharisees/Jews, who greatly hated Paul and were incessantly accusing him of varying (false) offences, knew that Paul was teaching against the Sabbath, he would have been charged with that offence, but that never happened…he was never charged with that, because he never said anything contrary to the God’s law, which includes the Sabbath.

      • Armed Citizen

        not at all so, Sir! this is a passage that needs further understanding. are you ready for this truth?

      • Cadasilva

        “Ah, the New Testament Church gathered on the 1st day of the week”.

        1-The first thing recorded in the Bible is work done by the Creator Himself on the first day of the week-Genesis 1:1-5

        2-God commands man to work on the first day of the week-Exodus 20:9-11

        3-None of the Patriarchs considered anything but a working day.

        4- There is no record of the Prophets considering it holy.

        5-By specific command, God`s people used the first day of the week as a common day for work.

        6- God called it a “work day”- Ezekiel 46:1

        7-God did not rest on it.

        8- He never blessed it.

        9-Christ did not rest on it.

        10-As a carpenter (Mark 6:3) Jesus worked as His trade up to the age of 30 years. He worked six days a week, thus doing a lot of hard work on the first day of the week.

        11-All the apostles considered the first day a common day.

        12-None of the apostles rested on the first day of the week.

        13-Christ never blessed it.

        14-It was never blessed by divine authority.

        15-It was never sanctified.

        16-No divine law was ever given to enforce its observance, so it is not a transgression to work on that day, for “where no law is, there is no transgression”. Romans 4:15 see also I John 3:4

        17-Nowhere in the NT is there a prohibition against working on the first day of the week.

        18-No penalty is given for working on that day.

        19-No blessing is promised for observing it.

        20-No rules are given for observing it.

        21-It is never called the Christian Sabbath.

        22- It is never called the Sabbath day.

        23-The first day of the week is never called the Lord`s day.

        24- It is never mentioned as a day of rest.

        25-No sacred tittle is ever applied to it. Therefore, it is not a holy day.

        26-The Bible refers to it as “the first day of the week”.

        27-According to the Bible, Jesus never mentioned.

        28- The word “Sunday” never appears in the Bible.

        29-Neither God, nor Christ, nor writers of the Bible ever referred to it as a holy day.

        30-The first day of the week is mentioned 8 times in the NT. Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:2,9. Luke 24:1; John 20:1,19. Acts 20:7. I Corinthians 16:2.

        31-Six of the texts in the NT refer to the same first day of the week.

        32-Paul directed the believers to make an accounting of their secular affairs on the first day of the week. I Corinthians 16:2

        33-In all of the NT there`s only one religious meeting recorded as being held on the first day of the week – at night meeting after the close of the Sabbath. Acts 20:5-12

        34-There`s no other intimation on any religious meeting being held on the first day of the week.

        35- It was not the Christians custom to meet on that day.

        36- There`s no requirement to break bread on the first day of the week.

        37-The record shows only one instance in which bread was broken on the first day. Acts 20:

        38-This was after midnight, as Paul was going to leave the next day. Acts 20:7-11. Jesus broke bread on thursday evening. Luke 22-19, and the disciples sometimes did so everyday. Acts2:42

        39-Nowhere does the Bible say that the first day of the week is a commemoration of Jesus resurrection. This is a tradition which makes void the law of God. Matthew 15-9. Baptism is the ceremony that commemorates the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Romans 6:3-5

        40-The NT makes no mention of any change in the holy Sabbath day or any sacredness being attached to the first day of the week.

        • “By the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.” Seventh-Day Adventism is a is a system of legalism leading people to destruction.
          1) “And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread,” (Act 20:7 KJV) The Church assembled on the Sunday, not Saturday.
          2) Jesus rose on the first day of the week and communion (breaking bread) is a celebration of His death and resurrection, not His resting in the grave.
          3) “One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” (Rom 14:5 KJV) Therefore the Sabbath is not incumbent on Christians.
          4) “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. 7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.” (Gal 5:6-9 KJV) The Sabbath, like circumcision are but shadows of Christ and are rendered obsolete by His work. Those who seek a righteousness based on the Law will be condemned by the Law and Christ will profit you nothing.
          ” Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
          2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
          3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
          4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
          5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.” (Gal 5:1-5 KJV)

          • “By the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.” Seventh-Day Adventism is a is a system of legalism leading people to destruction.

            Misinterpretation because of missing context.

            A law:

            Remember to keep the Sabbath day holy.
            – Exodus 20:8

            By remembering to keep the sabbath holy will no flesh be justified. So, it doesn’t matter if you don’t keep the sabbath, because you’re not justified by the law.

            A law:

            You will not have any other gods.
            – Exodus 20:3

            By the not having other gods will no flesh be justified. So, it doesn’t matter if you worship other gods, because you’re not justified by the law.

            So please explain to me why worshiping God only, or keeping the Sabbath is legalism and thus leading people to destruction. How are you not speaking on behalf of the adversary?

            – – – – – – – – – –

            a)Mistranslated. There is no “day” there and the word “week” is the word “sabbath”.

            In yet the one of-the sabbaths of-having-been-together-led the learners of-the to-break bread the paul thru-said to-them being-about to-out-be to-the on-morrow beside-stretched besides the saying unto mid-night.
            – Acts 20:7, direct Greek translation.

            And on the first sabbath, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached to them, ready to depart on the morrow, and continued his speech until midnight.
            – Acts 20:7

            In context, it was the first Sabbath after the Passover which we are required to keep count of until the Feast of Pentecost comes.

            b) The commandment is not to break bread or to gather, it is to cease your work every sabbath day, this is, Friday sunset till Saturday sunset.

            c) Doing something, or a record of someone doing something doesn’t make a commandment of God null and void.

            d) There is no explicit declaration that God said this is the new day.

            The Sabbath is given as a memorial of Creation (Gen 2:2-3), long before sin came into the world, and therefore a need for a Savior. Jesus’ death or resurrection has nothing to do with the Sabbath. You might as well determine we can worship other gods, or murder now because Jesus rose from the dead.

            What exactly does days of fasting have to do with the memorial day of Creation? This chapter doesn’t even mention the Sabbath.

            Regarding the Sabbath. What came first, sin or the Sabbath?
            Regarding circumcision. What came first, sin or circumcision?

            Thus the Sabbath was pointing at something else other than circumcision.

            To mix these two, you might as well abolish not being able to commit adultery. They have nothing in common.

            Furthermore, you’re quoting Galatians out of context. They thought that if they were circumcised, they could go back into bondage in sin by worshiping other gods and keeping their holy days. They thought they were saved by circumcision. This book, Galatians, doesn’t give the go ahead to make the laws of God of none effect so that we can sin as we are please in all we have to do is believe in Jesus.

      • What does fasting days in Rom 14 have to do with the weekly memorial day of creation?


    • Josey

      I agree with the scriptures you posted but the believers in the New Testament met on the first day of the week and I don’t believe the Lord is concerned with what day we meet together to serve, worship and learn of Him, He says where two or three are gathered in His Name He is in their midst, He never said it had to be a certain day on our calendar.

      • Becky

        Yes, we should worship God Almighty through Christ daily. That doesn’t change the sanctity of the Sabbath. God Almighty commanded that we are to keep it holy. That day was sanctified by God Almighty from the beginning…he rested on that day…he kept it holy (Genesis 2:1-3). We are not to work on that day, nor are we to cause others (even strangers or our animals) to work on the Sabbath (Exodus 20:8-11, Luke 23:56). Christ kept the Sabbath holy and he taught us how to keep it holy (Luke 13:10-17). Never did he command/teach that one day the Sabbath would no longer be a law, else he would have been accused straightaway by the pharisees.

        According to scripture, jews would meet in the synagogue on the Sabbath and it was Christ’s custom to go there on the Sabbath (Luke 4:16). In Acts 13 and 18:4, we see that the disciples still followed Christ’s custom on the Sabbath, along with the gentiles. The scriptures also tell us that the saved will keep the Sabbath before God Almighty in the new heavens and the new earth (Isaiah 66:22-24).

        • gizmo23

          Satan loves to see arguments like this between 2 believers

          • Amos Moses

            How would you know?

          • gizmo23

            Simple logic

          • Amos Moses

            LOL! Sure.

            Oh, i forgot…../sarc

        • Hatch Jerod

          So what your saying is you have the knowledge to know which laws are fulfilled under the blood of Christ and those which need continual adherence?

          • Becky

            I’m convicted on what the scriptures teach. Like the fact that the ten commandments are still in effect. Which is why it’s still a sin to murder, steal, commit adultery, not keep the Sabbath, etc.,. I submitted scripture that clearly teaches that the Sabbath law was still observed by the disciples (well after Christ’s death and resurrection) and will be observed by the saved.

            When Christ spoke to the disciples concerning the last days he said, “And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.” Matthew 24:20. Obviously, Christ, who knows the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10), knew his people would still be observing the Sabbath during the last days. Clearly, the Sabbath law has always been in effect.

            God Almighty specifically commanded…repeatedly…that the Sabbath was to be kept holy, even by strangers (Isaiah 56:1-8) . Yet, there’s zero mention from him that the Sabbath, the day he blessed and sanctified, was to be eradicated at some point. The Sabbath was the first law introduced to us from the beginning (Genesis 2:1-3) and shall continue in the new heavens and earth (Isaiah 66:22-24).

          • Hatch Jerod

            So you tithe about 24% of your income, and obey the law about travel distance on the sabbath?

          • Show me in the Word where those two laws are written… thanks.


          • Hatch Jerod

            24% of income is well known and fairly easy to search out, there is a good article on it on CARM . Org and let us reason .org and got questions .org

          • The Word… Book, chapter and verse please.

          • Hatch Jerod

            Billy, you are being lazy. Do the research of the opposing view on your own. If you want to learn consider other scholars research so you can avoid proof texting. I’m not doing your bible study for you. It’s there, it’s well known, perhaps this is the first you have heard of it. No one is impressed that you are spending more time at pilpul than they are. We simply have lives beyond this sort of activity.

            You preach obeisance to the law and curse at your fellow Christians (do we really have to use curse words at others?). What did James say about this? What did John say in 1John? Your Sabbath keeping is not evidencing your love for others.

            I know you’ll have some smarmy comeback so consider this my final response. In advance, I say, “hey, good point there, pal.”

          • Please quote me where I curse at my fellow Christians. Thanks.

            Also, it is not for man that you set the Sabbath aside. It is as a memorial for the Creator.

            And lastly, you need some Bible study. The statements you made about how to keep the Sabbath is not based on the Word.

          • Hatch Jerod

            Here’s your whole quote – in context:

            “That’s like saying, “I say this with the most sincere Christian love – F** you!” or “I say this with the most sincere Christian love – to hell with you.” etc.

            You’re not a Christian. You profess you are, but your fruit of obedience that you were to bring forth says you’re not. You say “love” but really “love” to you is whatever suits you. Not God. It’s not love for God and love for your neighbor. It’s a selfish love.”

            Truer words are rarely spoken.
            Matthew 7:5

          • I was actually quoting the above comment.

            @maxine:disqus: “I say this with the most sincere Christian love – take a hike!”

            @willemtoerien:disqus: “That’s like saying, “I say this with the most sincere Christian love – F** you!” or “I say this with the most sincere Christian love – to hell with you.” etc.

            You’re not a Christian. You profess you are, but your fruit of obedience that you were to bring forth says you’re not. You say “love” but really “love” to you is whatever suits you. Not God. It’s not love for God and love for your neighbor. It’s a selfish love.”

            So I have to ask… why did you quote me out of context of the discussion? Because in context, the application is to me based on what someone else has stated… not to others.

          • Hatch Jerod

            The other reply is being moderated for some reason, probably the link

          • Hatch Jerod

            Do some research and google it. It’s there I promise you. Start with exodus 16:29, then Acts 1:21. By creating a loophole argument the Jews made it possible to travel the distance they were supposed to keep from the ark. numbers 35:5, leviticus 23:3

          • No no, you made the statements without sourcing them, and then want me to go look for them? I’m not falling for that. It’s like I tell you that something exists without sourcing it and then have to you to find that it exists.

            I’ll help you here… It’s not in the Word of God. Those were man-made oral laws, and it is a sin to add or remove laws to the Word of God [Deut 4:2;12:32;13]

          • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

            Actually, at ACTS.15:28-29, God has exempted new Gentile Christian adults from some of the hard/difficult or burdensome laws of Moses/ /God, eg circumcision, keeping the Sabbath only on Friday, kosher foods n other ceremonial/customary Jewish laws.

            In comparison, God requires Jewish Christians or Messianic Jews to continue to keep all of Moses Law or Jewish laws bc it is not a burden to them.
            …….It would be worse if a Jewish Christian live like a Gentile Christian n starts breaking some of the laws of Moses(GAL.2:9-14) = like a dog returning to its vomit. He will be cursed by God, as per DEUT.28:15-16, 1COR.3:15 & 5:1-5 & 11:30, HEB.10:26-31.

          • Nonsense. In Christ, there is no Jew or Gentile. And Moses says the laws are easy to keep.

          • maxine

            Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment. Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
            God is more concerned with our hearts rather than checking off a box that says ‘yes, I kept the Sabbath’. We aren’t supposed to commit adultery but Jesus says that if we look on someone and lust for them in our heart, we are guilty of adultery; the commandment says do not murder but Jesus says that he who hates his brother without cause is guilty of murder. The commandment says to honor the Sabbath but Jesus says to take His yoke upon us and learn of Him because His yoke is light and His burden is easy. That is our true rest.
            You can tire yourselves out by checking off all the boxes – well, not all because there is none righteous so it is impossible for you to keep them all — The Bible says if you break one, you break them all and are under the curse.
            So wear yourselves out (you and Becky) trying to prove a point while the rest of us depend on the redemption Jesus provided. You claim Moses
            said the law was easy to keep…then how is it that Jesus says there is none righteous – no not one.

          • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

            How do we take up the yoke of Jesus Christ n be ‘driven’ or guided by Him if we, as new Gentile Christian adults, neglect to learn about His Law/Word bc most just-born-again GC r very clueless about God’s/ /Moses Law, eg LEV.10:9, DEUT.18:9-14, etc.? (cf: HEB.8:10-11)

            An analogy: …….A new computer(= artificial brain) needs to hv good programs installed, eg a genuine Win 7 OS n Firefox browser, in order for it to work properly n beneficially. If the new cptr is ignorantly installed/infected with bad/evil programs that hv viruses/malware, eg pirated Win 7 n torrent downloads thru Firefox, it will work no more n soon be destroyed.

            Why do u think JOHN.1:1-2 state that Jesus was/is the Word, n the Word is/was/will be God.?

          • Circular reasoning.

            Question: What are the commandments of Jesus?
            Answer: Love God and love your neighbors.

            Question: How do we love God, and love their neighbors?
            Answer: Keep the commandments of Jesus.

            In essence leaving the blank of that we can decide how to love:
            * It’s okay to be a homosexual, because all you need to do is love God and love your neighbors.
            * Incest is okay, because all you need to do is love God and love your neighbors.
            * Open marriages are okay, because all you need to do is love God and love your neighbors.

            See GayChristian101 on how your argument is used to justify transgression of the law.

            If you truly love God and love your neighbor, you would keep the Sabbath, you will not hate another, nor will you even look upon another with lust.

          • maxine

            I say this with the most sincere Christian love – take a hike!

          • That’s like saying, “I say this with the most sincere Christian love – F** you!” or “I say this with the most sincere Christian love – to hell with you.” etc.

            You’re not a Christian. You profess you are, but your fruit of obedience that you were to bring forth says you’re not. You say “love” but really “love” to you is whatever suits you. Not God. It’s not love for God and love for your neighbor. It’s a selfish love.

          • maxine

            I apologize for my blunt sign off. It is not usually in my nature but I don’t come across situations like this that often. My question is whose idea was it to start this little game of yours? You, Becky or another of your compatriots. It wouldn’t surprise me if all the characters were you, using different names because the writing is so similar. Anyway, there are countless ways you can amuse yourself without trying to see how many true Christians you can draw into your little net by attempting to make them look foolish. You gave yourself away be the spirit behind your posts. Hopefully others will read this post and avoid your trap.

          • @disqus_DImfsizl3r:disqus : “I apologize for my blunt sign off. It is not usually in my nature but I don’t come across situations like this that often.”

            Though I accept your apology, even though I know it is false one as your heart is still the same:

            @disqus_DImfsizl3r:disqus : “My question is whose idea was it to start this little game of yours? You, Becky or another of your compatriots. It wouldn’t surprise me if all the characters were you, using different names because the writing is so similar. Anyway, there are countless ways you can amuse yourself without trying to see how many true Christians you can draw into your little net by attempting to make them look foolish. You gave yourself away be the spirit behind your posts. Hopefully others will read this post and avoid your trap.”.

            Just because I don’t believe in the anti-Messiah, the lawless one who makes the laws of ‘I AM’ my God of none effect like portraying a false sense of love; that I am playing games. I have no other reason for existence than to declare the Word of ‘I AM’, the real Messiah who died for me so that I can be free from transgression of the law, as truth. And thus says the Word of ‘I AM’ on how one loves God and your neighbors:

            How to love your neighbor (The whole chapter of Leviticus 19):

            You will not go up and down as a talebearer among your people, neither will you stand against the blood of your neighbor, ‘I AM THAT I AM’. You will not hate your brother in your heart. You will in any wise rebuke your neighbor, and not suffer him to sin. You will not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you will love your neighbor as yourself, ‘I AM THAT I AM’.
            – Leviticus 19:16-18

            How to love ‘I AM’ (The whole chapter of Deuteronomy 30).

            For this commandment which I command you this day, it is not too hard for you, neither is it too far off. […] But the Word is very near to you, in your mouth and in your heart that you may do it. See, I have set before you this day life and good, death and evil; In that I command you this day to love ‘I AM’ your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep nine of His commandments, and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live. […] I call on heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore choose life, that both you and your seed may live! That you may love ‘I AM’ your God, and that you may obey His Voice, and that you may cleave to Him, because He is your life, and the strength of your days.
            – Deuteronomy 30:11,14-16,19-20

            – – – – – – – – – –

            Woe to them that call evil good, and good evil, that put darkness for light, and light for darkness, that put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! […] To the law and to the testimony, if they do not speak according to this Word, it is because they have no light in them. […] For the commandment is a lamp, the law is light and the reproofs of instruction are the way of life.
            – Isaiah 5:20;8:20; Proverbs 6:23

          • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

            Actually, the verse “In Christ, there is no Jew or Gentile” means that both Jews n Gentiles hv the same opportunity to inherit the kingdom of heaven(= be saved from hell) thru faith in Christ.
            ……. B4 Christ, only the Jews(n not Gentiles) hv the opportunity to inherit the kingdom of heaven.(see LUKE.16:19-31)

            Even on today’s earth, Jews n Gentiles hv very different rules, customs, traditions n culture in their lives.
            …….Many Jews in USA r prosperous bc they r law-abiding n hard-working people, eg Mark Zuckerberg, Larry Page, Sergey Brin, Michael Dell, Steve Ballmer, Larry Ellison, Michael Bloomberg, etc.

            Pls cite from Scripture, where Moses says the laws r easy to keep.

          • @disqus_O2BUmbLecp:disqus: “B4 Christ, only the Jews(n not Gentiles) hv the opportunity to inherit the kingdom of heaven.(see LUKE.16:19-31)”

            Misinterpretation, and self contradictory. Ruth was a Gentile, Rahab was a Gentile, even Abraham was a Gentile. There is even one chapter in the Bible written by a Gentile. And not only that, there are even Gentile prophets, one even prophesied about Jesus’ coming.

            By definition of your interpretation, all the above do not have the opportunity to inherit the kingdom of heaven.

            @disqus_O2BUmbLecp:disqus: “Even on today’s earth, Jews n Gentiles hv very different rules, customs, traditions n culture in their lives.”

            Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of ‘I AM’ does man live.
            – Deuteronomy 8:3

            One law will be to him that is home born [an Israelite], and to the foreigner that sojourns among you. […] You have one manner of law, as well for the foreigner, as for one of your own country. […] One law and one manner will be for you, and for the foreigner that sojourns with you. […] You will have one law for him that sins through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the foreigner that sojourns among you.
            – Exodus 12:49; Leviticus 24:22; Numbers 15:16,29

            We go by “Thus says ‘I AM’…” not “thus says man…”

            @disqus_O2BUmbLecp:disqus: “Pls cite from Scripture, where Moses says the laws r easy to keep.”

            And ‘I AM’ your God will make you have excess in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your body, and in the fruit of your livestock, and in the fruit of your ground for good. Because ‘I AM’ turns back to rejoice over you for good as He rejoiced over your fathers, if you obey the voice of ‘I AM’ your God, to guard His commandments and His laws which are written in this book of the law, if you turn back to ‘I AM’ your God with all your heart and with all your being. For this command which I am commanding you today, it is not too hard for you, nor is it far off. […] For the the Word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart – to do it.
            – Deuteronomy 30:9-11,14

          • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

            But Rahab n Ruth both married Jews n converted to become Jews, as per MATT.1:5 = Salmon begot Boaz by Rahab, Boaz begot Obed by Ruth, Obed begot Jesse, … n RUTH.1:4 = Now they took wives of the women of Moab: the name of the one was Orpah, and the name of the other Ruth. And they dwelt there about ten years.

            Jewish history, the 12 tribes, the nation of Israel/kingdom of Judah, the Temple of God, the Torah laws only began with the ministry of Moses at around 1500BC. There were no Jews b4 1500BC. So, all those born b4 1500BC were Gentiles, eg Adam, Eve, Cain, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Lot, Job, etc, even though they knew God = they were not people of the Law.
            _ _ _ _ _ _ _

            EXO.12:49 required Gentiles who chose to live in the nation of Israel/kingdom of Judah to also keep the Law or God’s/ /Moses Law.
            ……. Doesn’t foreign immigrants who choose to live in USA hv to follow US Law.?
            ……. During the time of Jesus Christ, the kingdom of Judah/Israel was under Roman/Gentile rule. Moses Law or Jewish Law had no jurisdiction or enforcement powers, eg the Jews could not execute adulterers, blasphemers, idolaters, homosexuals, incest-sinners, etc.
            _ _ _ _ _ _ _

            “Easy 4 u to keep” and “not too hard for you to keep”(DEUT.30:9-11) hv 2 different meaning. If the 613 laws of Moses were really easy to keep, there would hv been no need for the exemptions given by God to the Gentile Christian adults, as per ACTS.15:28-29 = 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.[g] If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.
            ……. Also, there would hv been no need for Paul to vigorously oppose the Judaizers who wanted to impose Moses Law on Paul’s new Gentile converts, at GAL.2:9-14.

            Eg, if a new GC adult male were to be circumcised per Moses Law, he would be physically incapacitated for about one month.(GEN.34:25 – Dinah rape incident) Would there be someone to nurse him n provide financial support 4 him.?
            ……. If he accidentally got stimulated sexually n got an erection, it would be like hell on earth. That’s why the Jews r circumcised when they r babies.
            ……. Nevertheless, GC male babies should be circumcised, in order to make them less horny or less adulterous.

          • Becky

            Secondly, and lastly, the ceremonial laws (nailed to the cross, eg: Colossians 2:14; Ephesians 2:15,16; Hebrews 9:9,10) and permitted/forbidden food laws were meant for all to obey…Israelite and non-Israelite the same…from the beginning. This is what scripture teaches…

            The ceremonial laws: Genesis 4:4 says that Abel, a “keeper of sheep”, brought “the firstborn of his flock” (a clean animal) as his offering to God (Exodus 13:12). In Genesis 8:20, God commanded Noah to build an altar for burnt offerings of every clean animal and every clean bird. In Genesis 9:4, God explicitly commands Noah not to eat the blood of the animal (see Leviticus 17:12-14).

            The permitted/forbidden food laws: In Genesis 7:2, God specifically commanded Noah to take seven each of every clean animals/birds and two each of the unclean animals/birds, males and females, into the ark (Leviticus 11). In Revelation 18:2, John mentioned an unclean bird and the term “unclean” is used in the same context as in Acts 11:8.

            These laws were in place long before the exodus of the Israelites.

          • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

            There is a reason the laws of God is called MOSES Law.
            No doubt, God gave a very small part of His Law to Abel, Noah n the early Patriarchs who were hand-picked by God/Jesus. But it was only thru Moses that God gave His Law in full, ie all the 613 laws, beginning with the Ten Commandments at EXO.20.
            …….Besides that, thru Moses n Joshua, God gave the Jews their nation of Israel, a land of milk n honey,(lasted from 1500BC to 500BC) which they eventually lost by breaking Moses Law unrepentantly.

            Gentile Christians do not hv to keep all the laws of Moses/ /God/Jesus bc inheriting eternal life in heaven thru faith in Christ is much more important than gaining a good n long life on earth thru Moses Law.
            ……. Eg an alcoholic or drug-addict usually does not live long on earth bc of long term damage to the brain, liver n kidneys.
            A Gentile alcoholic who accepts Christianity may die immediately from Delirium Tremens if he obeys Moses Law at LEV.10:9 n stops taking alcohol = may not be saved from hell.(cf: MATT.13:18)
            So, it’s better for him to continue as he is, ie takes his regular dose of alcohol to maintain his psychological self n continue to be alive = may likely get himself saved from hell by learning more about the Word of God.

          • Becky

            All that and no scripture to back your claims.

          • Becky

            They were instructed to “…abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.” (vs29). According to you, the gentiles were exempt from the ceremonial laws and God’s commandments, but they had to keep these?? You’re wrong and you’re misinterpreting the scriptures. Pertaining to his laws, God Almighty said, “The stranger who dwells among you shall be to you as one born among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.” Leviticus 19:34 (also see Exodus 12:49).

            Firstly, Paul preached the “word of the Lord” to the gentiles (vs 36). Christ is the word of the Lord (John1:1-3, Matthew1:23). God Almighty and Christ are one…he commanded what God commanded (eg: 1John5:3, Matthew12:50, John15:10, 2Corinthians5:18-21). Furthermore, had Paul taught the gentiles they needn’t obey God’s laws, he would have been formally charged with that offense by the Pharisees, however he wasn’t even accused of it. Also, the scriptures clearly teach that the saved obey God’s commandments (Revelation 14:14).

          • maxine

            “Col 2:16

          • God says: Gen 2:2-3; Exodus 20:8-11; Isaiah 66:23
            Paul says: Col 2:16

            …. Either you have to reject Paul, or you have the wrong interpretation of Col 2:16…


        • maxine

          Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

          • Becky

            Verse 14 says exactly what was a “shadow of things to come”.

            “having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.” Colossians 2:14

            Take note that Christ wiped out the “handwriting of requirements that was against us.” Those were the ordinances written by Moses (Deuteronomy 31:26-27). The Ten Commandments were written by the finger of God (Exodus 31:18) and they have never been against us (Psalm 19:7). So, it was the ordinances, handwritten by Moses, that were wiped out and not the Ten Commandments.

          • maxine

            Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

          • maxine

            Act 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: Act 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Act 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

          • In context, Col 2:16 is declaring that we should not let those with spoiled principalities (v15) who tries to spoil us with philosophy and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world (v8), to judge us in how we eat, drink, keep holy days, understand new moons, and how we keep the Sabbaths.

            It does not say not to judge someone for drinking blood and pee, or if he eats poison frogs, or if he can keep Hindu holy days, etc.

          • Bill Scudder

            Amen Becky

      • 1: The commandment of God is not to gather and to worship. It is to cease your labor. We are to worship God every day.
        2: They did not meet on the first day in Acts 20:7. The word “day” is not there and the word “week” is Sabbath.

        And on the first Sabbath, when the disciples came together, to break bread, Paul preached to them, ready to depart on the morrow, and continued his speech until midnight.
        – Acts 20:7

        3: To declare that people did something on the day, does not nullify a commandment of God. It’s like saying, because a couple of people gathered on a certain day of the year, your new birthday is on that day.
        4: God never gave an instruction that this is His commandment has changed.


        • Hatch Jerod

          Absolute kudos to your first point. The sabbath is supposed to be the culmination of a week of living faithfully in worshipful gathering.

          Yet, if Paul did in fact meet on Sunday, it was written in the word for our instruction by the Holy Spirit. Paul says elsewhere to let no man judge you on days sabbaths, etc yadayada, you know this verse I’m sure. Peter was told that he should not call unclean what God had made clean. If God had made the dietary law obsolete because of Christ, why would he then make us keep the Sabbath law? How much of the Law did Christ fulfill? Answers: He wouldn’t. He fulfilled the whole law. I’m sure you know those verses, too, so you’ll forgive my lack of reference taking for granted your knowledge of scripture.

          • Paul did not meet on Sunday, as I have shown. It says in the Greek that they met on the first Sabbath. In context, it would be the first Sabbath after the Passover feast, in counting to the feast of Pentecost.

            In regarding the “not judge you”, if you read the whole chapter (Col 2), it says we are not to let those who focus on the traditions of man, the rudiments of the world, on how we keep the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a law of God, not a tradition of man. If we interpret it the way you do, you have to by definition, not judge someone for drinking blood or pee, or eating rotten meat or poison frogs, or if someone keeps a Hindu holy day, etc.

            To fulfill the law does not mean to abolish it. It means to uphold it. Do you fulfill your marital vows? Also that interpretation is ambiguous. It does not say dietary law, or Sabbath or whatever. It says law. And you can then use it to justify sin. “I can be a homosexual because Jesus fulfilled the law.” See GayChristian101, on how your interpretation is indeed used to justify homosexuality.

      • Bill Scudder

        the real crime of the RCC is that they do not believe that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone.

    • Clemzy Clement

      23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.{1 John 3:23}

      • Becky

        Obeying God’s commandments is about loving him and others. By obeying God’s commandments, we won’t lie to each other, steal from each other, murder each other, etc.,.

        For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3

      • Circular reasoning.
        Question: What is the commandments of Jesus?
        Answer: Love God and love one another.

        Question: How do we love God and love one another?
        Answer: Keep the commandments Jesus gave.

        Thus the blank is left open for oneself to decide what is right and what is wrong. Homosexuality is okay, as long as we love God and love each other. See GayChristian101 on how they use your argument to justify transgression of the law.

        Moses declared how we love God and love one another and even dedicated a whole chapter (Deuteronomy 30) on how to tell good and evil apart. If absolute truth (Psalms 119) is changeable, then it was neither absolute nor truth.


  • ComeOnPeople!

    COME ON PEOPLE! I’m sorry but NO a person who believes in the bible as written is very different then a Catholic. Study history and you will see how the church in Rome took over and pretty much caused the true church to go the way of pagans. Sorry folks but God is not pleased with worshipping Him in the manor of the heathens. He will never accept a mixer in worship. He is a jealous God. His ways are higher then our ways, His thoughts higher than ours. The Roman Catholic church is not the authority on earth , never has been. The God who made all things, He alone holds that position .

    • FD

      When did that happen exactly? When Rome took over? What year EXACTLY did the Holy Spirit abandon His Church because of paganism, or whatever your claim is? And when was it made right, again? 1517? 1820? Or when your break off of a break off of a break off sect began meeting in the local middle school gym? I’m anxious to see what your “study of history” comes up with.

      • Alyssa Krauss

        The Roman Catholic Church has never belonged to the Holy Spirit because the RCC if full of blasphemy and it’s not His Church and God does not live in a temple made by hands (Acts 7:48) and Peter was not the rock that the Church was built on. That Rock is Jesus Christ, who is the Chief Cornerstone of the Church…The Pope is not God’s representative on earth…Christians have a High Priest and His name is Jesus Christ and no man comes to the Father (in Heaven) but by Him…The Church is a body of believers all across the world. The Church is not the Roman Catholic Church or any denomination anywhere on earth.. The RCC is the harlot or Revelation. As far as the “study of history” perhaps you should do a little studying yourself for the RCC has been behind the killing of Christians, Jews and anyone who does not agree with their statutes and decrees…The RCC and Islam will team up for the One World Religion of Chrislam and all who do not bow down to Allah and the New World Order, will be beheaded.

        • gizmo23

          Nothing better than seeing Christians beat each other up over dogma. Satan loves it

          • Hatch Jerod

            Nothing worse than apathy in the name of unity. God hates it.

          • ComeOnPeople!

            Awe but satan loves those who are complacent and silent far better.

          • Ax2root

            Christians are to “JUDGE ALL THINGS.”

            And to ” speak the Truth in Love”

            It is not “beating..up” to declare Truth.

        • Hatch Jerod

          It won’t be Chrislam. That name is just too silly.

          • Ax2root

            CHRISLAM is being preached by deluded leaders such as the Pope and Rick Warren

          • Hatch Jerod

            Love the username. I was just saying they’ll rename it so it doesn’t sound a brand of dinnerware.

          • Ax2root


            Chrislam however does reveal it is the slopping together of Chriatianity and Islam into a blasphemous toilet

          • Alyssa Krauss

            Exactly…That’s their intentions and many will buy into it all in the name of false peace and world harmony…

        • Paul R

          There were no denominations in early Christianity. Now there are a gazillion of them all competing with contradictory doctrines and beliefs. What good is a body of believers if all the parts are disjoint and not united to serve the head? You can say what you want about the Catholic Church, but even as the oldest and largest Body of believers in the world, we are not as divided as the protestant world. We never have to push unity, or Christian unity, we have something better, Communion both in heaven and Earth. That was the will of our Lord.

          • Alyssa Krauss

            The Roman Catholic Church is not Christian, neither is it the rock that Jesus spoke of…Jesus Himself, is the Rock. The RCC is not the Body of Christ and neither is any Pope God’s representative on the earth…Jesus IS the High Priest…This end time world unity and interfaithism coming through the RCC is not of God but of Satan in preparation for the One World Religion and Jesus did not come to bring piece but a sword of division…All Catholics should dump Catholicism and pick up Jesus Christ and Him alone. Jesus is the only way to the Heavenly Father and no one goes to the Heavenly Father EXCEPT through Jesus Christ and Him alone…

          • Paul R

            All Catholics should reject protestant distorted end times sensationalism and kooky doctrines that were founded by your reformer forefathers. There’s nothing at all Christian or authentic about the protestant faith. ALL were founded and started by men. ALL rejected the teachings of the One true Church founded by Christ.. So your words and beliefs about Jesus being the only high priest rings hollow, because you’ve completely cut yourselves off from him by listening to men who opposed everything He taught. Furthermore, protestantism has went the way of individualism, modernism rejecting all rituals and sacraments as mere symbols, meanwhile, this individualism and relative naturalism you teach is not much different than the New Agers and Freemasons who continue to spread its influence across many denominations. If what you believe about Jesus is correct, there is no need for a church, any church. Just stay home on sunday and read the BIble, better yet, start your own church.

      • ComeOnPeople!

        The Catholic church was the first break off from true believers. As for myself?
        I am of no break off of a break off. I have no denomination. I am a believer in the God of Abraham, Issac & Jacob and of the Messiah. I study the word of God and history. I do not follow what man says. As for you? Have you done an audit of what you believe? Have you studied history? Have you looked into the very documentations of the Roman Catholic church themselves? Have you read the councils of Nicaea? I’m anxious to see what your “study of history” comes up with.

        • Hatch Jerod

          Hopefully a Holy Spirit led life!

    • Vik Fomenko

      How is this relevant to this article? This is an act of reconciliation and love and honor between brothers. You will know that they are my disciples by how they love one another. This is a great demonstration of that love.

      • ComeOnPeople!

        Love is not privy to a lie. Love never embraces darkness. Love upholds truth and does not bow to anything that mixes truth with lies. The love you speak of is shallow. God’s love is way deeper. It’s the kind of love that does not put up with sin or deviations from truth because if love allowed that, the person left to their sin and lies would eventually die. This is not about kissing each others feet to make everyone feel happy, it’s about eternity. Those who continue in sin and lies will in the end die. Your kind of love says oh well let’s just be happy for today. God’s love says, come and follow me. Another words… if you love Me , KEEP my commandments, because in the end if you deviate from Truth… He will say… depart from me you workers of iniquity (those who practice LAWLESSNESS) I never knew you. Real love speaks truth and sometimes truth divides the best of friends. Because Truth would not bend , He was nailed to the cross.

        • Ax2root

          Thank you for ” speaking the Truth in Love”

      • Ax2root

        Brothers are brothers in Christ ONLY by being born again IN Jesus Christ BY Grace THROUGH FAITH…..not infant sprinkling as the Catholic denomination teaches

        Calling oneself Catholic or the derogatory term of Protestant does not make one a Christian

      • Philip Wallace

        Catholic leaders should be repenting, and apologizing to Jesus, whom they have sinned against, then come out of her (the Catholic church). I affirm Catholics to be Christians, however, the Vatican is most likely the Harlot of Babylon false prophet, especially with Francis at the helm.

        The need not reconciliation with Protestants, but with Jesus.

  • Gena B

    What does light have to do with darkness? You cannot take the truth of the gospel and co-mingle it with false doctrines.

  • Suchery Robin

    One world religious system developing……

  • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

    QUOTE: ……. “He stated that he wanted to wash Engle’s feet on stage as a gesture of
    reconciliation, but since it was not possible, he desired to instead kiss his feet.”
    I think this is OK bc the kissing of feet was to replace the washing of feet.
    …….Jesus Christ washing His apostles feet was symbolic of Church pastors/teachers chastening/disciplining/reprimanding/cleansing their Church members of sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking, unlike pastors/teachers like Joel Osteen who seldom preach/teach about repentance n sin = being politically-correct n religiously-correct, so as not to offend n lose members/tithes/offerings/gifts.

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    It seems an idol worship. Man must prostrate before God alone. No creature, not even an angel, deserves such respect from another fellow creature. ( Revelation ch. 22) People need sound Biblical Christian doctrines to do what is right.

    • Vik Fomenko

      Man should worship God alone. This was never an act of worship. It was an act of humility and respect and reconciliation. People need to discern the difference between worshipping someone and honoring someone like Jesus honored his disciples by washing their feet. People need to renounce the spirit of division and slander and pray what Jesus prayed – John 17 – that they may be ONE as me and my father are one… Not cause division in the body of Christ.

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        Washing someone’s feet is not the same thing. The Old Testament Bible characters showed respect to each other doing things like this because of the custom, but in the New Testament era, even angels rejected this kind of gesture which God alone received. Emotions must be controlled by the sound Biblical doctrines instead of the other way.

        • mrpoohead

          Well come and wash mine and then you can do the ironing.

  • No one was worshiping another. You can’t compare this to someone wanting to worship an angel.

    • Maria Chapeskie


    • Hatch Jerod

      That is worship and if you can’t see that you are deceived on that issue. Can you imagine kissing the feet of Christ after having kissed the feet of Catholic clergy tired to the protection of pedophiles?

  • Jack McEachern

    Sola Scriptura, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solus Christus, Soli Deo Gloria!

  • More evidence the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement is not of God.

    • Manus

      That’s my thoughts too.

  • gizmo23

    You mean there are people that believe Catholics aren’t Christians?

  • Josey

    Worship Christ and He alone! He alone is worthy of all glory, honor and praise. Religion or religious acts and traditions of man will not get you into Heaven for Jesus is the only way and having a personal relationship with Him and obeying His will for your life. It will be a dreadful thing for that one who thinks they are religious because of following traditions and doing acts that seem pious to hear on that day when before Christ the words, “depart from me for I never knew you”.

  • Robert Alonso

    Love shall be spoken here. Display the love of the father. Perfect love drives out all fear

    • Maria Chapeskie

      Yes, I place love above doctrine and we need to let the Holy Spirit lead us in the moment even if He leads us out of our comfort zone…and He will. He will break the control of man.

    • Amos Moses

      Love is not letting false teachers like Mr. Engle off the hook for what he is promoting…….

  • jael2

    The majority of Protestant churches are still clinging to Rome. Men apparently love the traditions and praises of men rather than the commandments of God ( i.e. Christmass, Easter, etc.). Pious Christians who believe this is just a Charismatic/ Pentecostal issue, would do well to first check their own hearts for idolatry.
    We have a very serious problem folks! Protestants have forgotten their history. The millions that have had their blood shed by the Catholic hierarchy over the centuries. The damning heresies of Rome. Now their mission is to bring back the Protestants back into the fold.
    But those who are saved by grace, through the blood of the Lamb, will bow to no man. We have only One King; Jesus!

  • Russell Scott

    The acid test can be found here. Don’t get bogged down in denominational doctrine, here is the acid test.

    1 John 4;1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
    2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

    3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

      Actually, 1JOHN.4:1-3 was talking about his fellow Jews who had rejected Jesus as the Christ/Messiah who had come in the flesh.
      …….Till today, the Jews r still waiting for their Messiah/Christ(= not Jesus of Nazareth) to come in the flesh to “save” them from their enemies, eg Christians n Muslims.

  • gizmo23

    Satan loves nothing better than seeing Christians beat each other up over dogma. He gives many posters here a thumbs up

    • Amy

      No one is beating anyone up.

      • gizmo23

        Catholics vs Protestants

        • Amy

          If Catholics and Protestants are beating each other up, there would be videos.

          Post links.

    • Amos Moses

      “Dogma is a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.”

      Dogma, unchanging precepts, were laid down at the beginning of the church…… and satan is the one rejoicing at the abandonment of it…….. for feel good emotion and false teaching and doctrine.

  • Vik Fomenko

    Lou Engle’s act was not an act of worship toward the Catholic Leader and vice versa, like what was happening in the Bible when Paul rebuked those bowing down to him as a form of worshipping him. This was an act of humility and reconciliation. Huge difference. Jesus knelt down and washed his disciples feet. Kissing someone’s feet is a great act of humility, not an act of worship. This was a powerful moment of reconciliation, nothing unbiblical happened. Shame on anyone who stirs up division and slander by spreading lies that this is the same act as worshipping someone. This is very disappointing Heather Clark that you would propagate and encourage this kind of slander publicly. Is this what God has gifted you to do? To tear down and slander instead of build up? I’m grieved by your actions, and I bet so is the Holy Spirit whom you are putting down.

    • It’s no surprise that this site stirs up rancor and controversy. More page views = higher ad revenues. And nothing gets things stirred up more than an attack on the RCC.

      • Amos Moses

        Well, it is actually a rebuke of Mr. Engle………… but whatever………..

  • Hatch Jerod

    If y’all can’t see through an obvious false prophet and false teacher like Engle, can’t see that the Calvary Chapel machine (represented by Laurie) is starving for Oil and latching onto other engines, can’t see that the Catholic Church, it’s ecumenism and it’s Eucharistic Christ are demonic (how many kids have to be raped and pedo’s protected before catholics leave), you will never see through the Antichrist spirit of the age in which we live. I’m not saying the gospel can’t be preached there, it can and has been, but the Holy Spirit calls us out of that rubbish, and those listening to Him will leave.

  • Amos Moses

    Lou Engle hosted his Azusa Now rally on April 9, 2016. Among the many troubling events included Engle kissing the foot of a Catholic priest as a sign of reconciliation. The event also included the pagan costumes and dancing and drums of Native Americans on the platform. False prophet and teacher Bill Johnson of Bethel Church was also on the platform. Brannon reveals why he believes this event is laying the foundation for a global false church. Hear the audio of James Dobson & American Family Radio Network and American Family Association and their Family News Division interviewing and praising Lou Engle. Why are Dobson and AFA/AFR not publicly rebuking Engle after this weekend?

    • ComeOnPeople!

      Because all things will come to pass that are written and a one world religion has not come to pass yet.

  • The Pentecostal/Charismatic movement rejects Sola Scriptura in favor of inner promptings, false prophets and “anointed teachers”. It was always headed back to Rome and reconciliation with that satanic system.

    • Armed Citizen

      while we agree that rome is a satanic cult, did you know that you are showing them support by showing them obedience to their ‘holy’ day?
      God says to ‘Remember to keep Holy His Sabbath‘ – rome says ‘no, honor the 1st day’.

      the Bible shows no support, Sir, for the Sabbath ever being done away with. just the opposite! notice how Sabbath is going to be kept in Heaven by Christians – Isaiah 66:23

      • ComeOnPeople!

        This is exactly why men should come out of religion and follow God according to HIS word. He said not to worship Him in the manner of the heathen. He said to keep HIS feasts and Sabbath . We should follow Him, not man and not religion. If your religion departs from His word , leave it and return to God.

        • Armed Citizen

          AMEN Brother!

  • KJC

    Light and Dark don’t mix. Until the RCC repents there will be no change. Saying your sorry to another human is not what God desires, It is repenting ones wrongs and turning from their sins including the worship of Mary. Until that happens there will be no change! God is a jealous God and there is no other. Marry would not condone it, she was only human. Praying to other humans is an abomination. There is only one way to the Father by accepting His plan for salvation. Narrow is the Way and few be that find it. God Bless!

  • Satan is on the move, Pope Francis has been very successful in uniting a One World Religion and the move is on for all the Harlot daughters to return to the Mother. That includes Islam, The Pope recently stated that he was very moved by the book by Adnana Oktar the Turkish Cult leader that thinks he is the Mahdi. And rabbis flock to Adnan as a great spiritual leader working with Rome to build the Third Temple. Next will be The Pope New world Order – Rome has again United with Israel only to try and Destroy her.

  • ProclaimingGodsTruth


    We are to worship only Jesus Christ and NOT man!

    Catholics and Christians have distinct doctrinal differences!

  • bjr1

    One must protect oneself, at all costs. Even one’s integrity and honor.

  • Bill Scudder

    Lou Engle is a long way from the true intent of the original Azusa street revival. Catholics that follow Rome and the Pope are not our brothers and sisters. The RCC is a false Christianity and for him to say that, “Jesus “doesn’t care” that Christians and Catholics disagree on biblical doctrine.” is blasphemy. Of course doctrine matters. It is the word of God. RC doctrine does not agree with the main teaching of the word of God. I had high hopes for this conference but not anymore as Lou falls for the lie of ecumenism.

  • EscapetheDarkness

    So, how does this feet kissing thing work? For instance, does it mean that Mr. Engle accepts official Catholic doctrine as legitimate now?

  • Bill Scudder

    Lou betrayed the Gospel and betrayed the legacy of the Azusa St revival in 1906

  • Darby C. Reger

    I think Calisi and Engle both studied their theology out of comic books.

  • Tim Smith

    Rrc has murdered over 60 million people. It is the seat of hasatan. REJECT all religion, read your bible, OBEY the TORAH, the Jewish Messiah did!!