Pence Comes Out in Support of Trump Decision to Retain Obama Order on Homosexual, Transgender Protections

WASHINGTON — Vice President Mike Pence defended on Sunday President Donald Trump’s decision to retain an Obama-era order banning groups that contract with the federal government from “discriminating” against homosexuals and transgenders in their business or non-profit organization.

“I think throughout the campaign, President Trump made it clear that discrimination would have no place in our administration,” Pence said during an interview on ABC’s “This Week,” according to a transcript of the discussion. “He was the very first Republican nominee to mention the LGBTQ community at our Republican National Convention and was applauded for it. And I was there applauding with him.”

“I think the generosity of his spirit, recognizing that in the patriot’s heart, there’s no room for prejudice is part of who this president is,” he stated.

He had been asked by interviewer George Stephanopoulos about concerns from conservative groups, which wondered “why Obama’s executive order is allowed to stand.”

As previously reported, last Tuesday, the Trump administration advised that it would keep intact Obama’s order, #13672, which amended a 1969 order by then-President Richard Nixon prohibiting federal contractors from discriminating based on “race, color, religion, sex, national origin, handicap and age,” as well as a 1998 order from then-President Bill Clinton adding “sexual orientation” to the list.

Obama added “gender identity” to Clinton’s “sexual orientation” language.

“President Trump continues to be respectful and supportive of LGBTQ rights, just as he was throughout the election,” the White House said in a statement. “The president is proud to have been the first ever GOP nominee to mention the LGBTQ community in his nomination acceptance speech, pledging then to protect the community from violence and oppression.”

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“The executive order signed in 2014, which protects employees from anti-LGBTQ workplace discrimination while working for federal contractors, will remain intact at the direction of President Donald J. Trump,” it outlined.

However, reports last week surfaced that Trump might also issue an order protecting religious freedom. Pence was asked about the matter on Sunday, but was not clear on whether an order is in the works as he solely pointed to Trump’s intent to discard the Johnson Amendment, which prohibits churches and non-profit organizations from speaking for or against political candidates under risk of losing their tax exempt status.

“Do think a new executive order is necessary on religious liberty?” Stephanopolous asked. “Or is current law sufficient?”

“Well, the president’s made it clear that he wants to take action on the Johnson Amendment,” Pence replied. “The president provided real leadership in the campaign where he identified the Johnson amendment and he told people of faith of every background across this country that he would work to repeal it. And he’s directed the administration to begin to look at ways, both legislatively and through executive action to do that…”

“But no executive orders beyond that, beyond fixing the Johnson Amendment, in your view?” Stephanopolous pressed.

“Well, I think that’ll be the purview of the president to determine whether any of that’s necessary,” Pence replied. “But I will tell you for our part: The focus of this administration will continue to be to have a safer America, to have a more prosperous America, and to continue to advance the president’s agenda, both on Capitol Hill and through executive action and carry that message all across the country.”


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  • And this strange thought begins to bubble up from the subconscious … maybe Trump is not actually the alternative anti-establishment candidate. Maybe Hillary was just there to push the envelope and make people vote for Trump…

    • Arbie Viau

      Your bubbling subconscious is over reacting David. If Trump hasn’t convinced you of his faithfulness to true Americans by now, nothing will. Hillary lost because she was a criminal candidate and Americans weren’t fooled by her tactics. Your comment sound liberal to me, so why don’t you just say so? Trump in my opinion, is the real deal and not a politician, thank God!

      • Chris

        “Trump in my opinion, is the real deal and not a politician, thank God!”

        Let’s see shall we?
        Politicians are quite infamous for lying repeatedly and so is Trump.

        Politicians are quite infamous for being self-centered and so is Trump.

        Like me to go on?

        • Arbie Viau

          Yep, I was right! You are a liberal and I don’t know where your ears are, but I’ve listened very carefully at every thing Trump said and only liberals found lies. The liberals have re-constructed what he said to what they want “people” in the mainstream media to believe and I guess you are one of these “people”. Each time they “quoted” Trump they never quoted what he actually said, but their lies. Sorry you have been brainwashed, but that’s exactly what liberals and the media want and your statements prove it.

          • Chris

            “Yep, I was right! You are a liberal…”

            Nope. Wrong! I am neither a liberal nor a conservative. I hold that the left/right dichotomy is dead. If anything I am a pragmatist where politics is concerned. Got any other observations you’d like to make about me without even knowing the first thing about me?

            “…and I don’t know where your ears
            are, but I’ve listened very carefully at every thing Trump said and only
            liberals found lies.”

            Really? So Trump never tried to cheat people who worked for him? He never claimed he’d pay them then refused? That’s what a number of his creditors relate and, in New York he became quite infamous for it.

            Sorry you have been
            brainwashed, but that’s exactly what Dominionists and the Murdock media want and
            your statements prove it.

          • Arbie Viau

            Well, Chris, believe what you want, but time will tell. No I don’t know you and as far as politics are concerned, I hate it and it sounds like you do too so, at least we can agree there. At least can we agree that it’s a good thing Hillary is NOT our president? That, my friend, would be a disaster and I don’t even want to go there.

          • Chris

            “Well, Chris, believe what you want, but time will tell.”

            I agree totally. Unfortunately your country may be severely damaged by then.

            As for my beliefs I’d rather believe the evidence.

            “No I don’t know
            you and as far as politics are concerned, I hate it and it sounds like
            you do too so, at least we can agree there.”

            Too true. When everyone realises that politicians, and anyone playing politics, are their enemies then we’ll start to make progress. My first principle when listening to a politician is “they are lying until proven otherwise”. Although I’m told I’m a bit of a cynnic.

            “At least can we agree that
            it’s a good thing Hillary is NOT our president? That, my friend, would
            be a disaster and I don’t even want to go there.”

            You’d rather a vice president who’s a dominionist, someone in charge of the department of health who thinks vaccinations cause disease, and a head of the NSA who is a neo-nazi and wants to destroy American society? I’d say change the system and elect a third party.

          • Chris

            At the risk of boring you silly allow me one last comment. In my experience the ONLY way to exercise any control over a politician, no matter how slight, is for the opposition to be a credible alternative.

            I’ve found that the longer a government is in office the more arrogant they become. The only way to convince them to change is to threaten to vote for the other team. But if the opposition isn’t a credible alternative then why should the government care? They know you won’t vote for them.

            However if the opposition is a credible alternative then they may well lose office. That’s why it’s in the interests of everyone for both parties to be seen to be as credible as possible.
            That’s why, even if you wouldn’t consider ever voting for the Democrats you should be contacting them with reasoned arguments as to the suitability [or lack of same] of a candidate.

            Sound reasonable?

          • Arbie Viau

            Yes, Chris, you are right the longer a government is in office the more arrogant they become, but I will add “corrupt” as well. I’m neither Republican or Democrat and in my opinion, we haven’t had a good representative in our government since Reagan, who was not among the elite and/or insider like Trump. The Democrat Party is slowly falling apart since they cannot find a credible candidate or are not looking for one, they just want to control “we the people” no matter what. Also, the Republican Party cannot decide what or where their party is going and have several people who behave as though they are a staunch supporter, but instead are wavering to both sides of the isle if they are paid well enough to consider who they are going to support. It’s like some kind of Russian Roulette game in the balance of things.

            Does your comments sound reasonable? Maybe, but I’m not as radical in my thinking as you are. But, even if you are against Trump, he is the POTUS, and just as they did for Obama, and all the previous POTUS’s, he deserves to be supported because “we the people” voted him in. Fair enough?

    • james blue

      Trump Isn’t for you or against you. he is for whatever profits himself. He will give you what you desire if it is in his interest to do so, not because he wants you to have it.

  • Reason2012

    If a man starts dressing inappropriately as a woman, disrupting their business, they have every right to fire him. If a man starts harassing male employees, just like if a man starts harassing female employees, making inappropriate comments and gestures, they most certainly can fire him.
    To make such behavior ok would be the only discrimination – against everyone else.

    • Jason

      The order does not refer to cross-dressers. A man can wear a dress and not be homosexual or transgendered. Maybe he wants to feel pretty 🙂 but now that you bring up clothing, wearing a dress is not harassing anyone and if it does not violate their business dress code then anyone can wear a dress without fear of being fired. I personally, would find wearing a dress not pleasant and very embarrassing… to me.

      • Saved

        The Bible, (GOD’s WORD is very clear on cross dressers, Read Deuteronomy 22:5, …. “The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God”… (KJV) Men are Men. Woman are Woman, it’s that simple. God created everything Including marriage.He made it man and woman, Adam and Eve

        Why would a Man want to dress like a woman to feel pretty?

        • Jason

          … “Why would a Man want to dress like a woman to feel pretty?” Why can’t a man feel pretty? Have you ever had a mani/pedi? …heavenly 🙂

          • Saved

            1 Peter 3:3,The Bible forbids men to wear things that belong to women,plainly* teaches that outward adornment that is purely for the sake of improving appearance is not appropriate. it’s WRONG as we must follow GOD’s word, His WORD always comes first in our lives at all times.

          • Jason

            Your reference does not mention cross-dressing.

          • Saved

            My reference was about appearance, God cares more about what is in our HEARTS and SOULS than appearances, cross-dressing can be found in Deuteronomy 22:5 in the Bible.The words, “homosexual”, “transgender”, and “bisexual” were not yet known in biblical times.However, the DESCRIPTION of those CHOSEN lifestyles are in the Bible – under the label of “sin perversion”

            cross dressing is mentioned in Deuteronomy 22:5 in the Bible.

            The words, “homosexual”, “transgender”, and “bisexual” were not yet known in biblical times – however, the DESCRIPTION of those CHOSEN lifestyles ARE in the Bible –

          • TheKingOfRhye

            If God doesn’t care about appearance, why does he care about cross-dressing?

          • Jason

            What about eating pork, condoms, tattoos, polyester, …allowing men without testicles into church? (Deuteronomy 23:1) what?, allowing bastards (or descendents of) into church, and shellfish. Are those wrong as well?

          • Yvonne Celeste Lee

            Always the same ole same ole tired argument. Christians live under New Testament laws. And, yes, most of those are wrong…wrong for our bodies because they make it weak, which is the reason God gave the commandments….to protect the health of his chosen people.

          • Jason

            My point is Saved justified his/her claim that cross-dressing is against God’s teaching by using the Old Testament, but chose to leave out the rest of the weird things. If it is a sacred book then either all is correct or none is correct.

          • Chris

            There’s no such thing as a homosexual or heterosexual lifestyle. There’s just a life.

          • Jason

            And the Bible prohibits many weird things everyday people do today.

          • Saved

            Let me put this ANOTHER WAY! The outer appearance and sexuality are nothing to GOD, they mean alot to Society but they don’t mean anything to GOD, he cares about our souls and what’s in our heart.Choosing live these livestyles are called are label of “sin perversion to GOD. When God establishes a Pattern. There is an order,if a man defines his masculinity to feel pretty or ACT,FEMALE like they are doing today it is a Gosser SIN in the eyes of GOD. Rejection of God’s ultimate authority.When people defy God and decide they can live any way they choose to their natural consequences. Romans 1:26–27

            it’s not something what GOD had it mind and what he sees as a SIN is a Sin in his mind.Man was given all the TOOLS by GOD to rule and succeed here on earth, to set standards that are pleasing to HIM (GOD),Man will ALWAYS have greater responsibility in the EYES of GOD. will always, be HELD to a Higher standard in God’s eyes. As Man,was created in GOD’s image and Woman was made in complimentary of Man.

            Woman were made so Man would not be lonely, as Jesus SAID it is not GOOD for man to be alone Genesis 2:18

          • Jason

            …last part of you post had a bit of a sexist tone to it.

            Can you please type without the caps.

            The Bible has some weird outdated stuff that everyone ignores. Cross-dressing is one of them. That’s how religion works; Cherry pick the parts you find relevant to your life.

        • james blue

          So women shouldn’t wear trousers?

          • Saved

            God created Womans to be Womans’, they were also created to be complimentary …from man not equals as the media is pushing today, all these masculine females that you see are not from God. it’s not what God wanted or intended,. He does GIVE Us free will, but he desires us to live,according to his standards and his desires. He wants us to love him,our own and loving him meaning obeying what he says.

            The Bible says woman can dress modestly, they can wear pants or can wear skirts THAT IS NOT a SIN, it’s a SIN when they pretend to be opposite SEX. I always say females should dress in a modest WAY if Jesus were coming to visit them, if they one day heard a knoco on their door and SAW Jesus standing right before Them. How would they dress? Would they feel embarrass BEFORE Jesus, dressing a certain,way? Do they want Jesus to see them dress that way etc..’

            How do Woman want JESUS to see them etc, HOW Do you want JESUS to see you??? Would you stand before Jesus as a male wearing a dress and makeup? Always DRESS the way you want Jesus to see you. 🙂

          • james blue

            Toga?

          • Tangent002

            What about kilts? Can I not wear my kilt?

          • james blue

            As long as you keep your grass cut low enough and promise to never use glass elevators I think you’re okay.

    • TheKingOfRhye

      “If a man starts harassing male employees, just like if a man starts harassing female employees, making inappropriate comments and gestures, they most certainly can fire him. ”

      Yeah, okay, I don’t disagree with that. What does any of that have to do with LGBT people, though? People should be fired for “inappropriate comments and gestures” or harassing other employees, no matter what their orientation or gender identity is. You seem to think that someone, just by their being LGBT, is disruptive or harassment. I guess I have to disagree with you that one. At least keep in mind there is a good segment of the population that doesn’t agree with you, either, I suppose.

      • Reason2012

        “… just like if a man starts harassing female employees …”

        A man dressing up as a woman is disruptive – and of course only an LGBT would do such a thing.

        An LGBT is not disruptive if they just weak appropriate attire like everyone else is expected to. Break the rule, refuse to stop,and anyone is subject to disciplinary action, LGBT or not.

        • TheKingOfRhye

          So, you’re more or less saying a transgender person is being disruptive just by being a transgender person. Not necessarily. I’ve actually had a trans woman as a coworker myself at one time. I didn’t find it ‘disruptive’, and no one else there seemed to either. Heck, I didn’t even KNOW she was trans until someone told me. That’s one thing alot of people like you seem to think, that you’ll always know a trans person is one….don’t be so sure of that. Of course, then the question is, if no one knows (and the people who do know don’t care), how on earth is it ‘disruptive’ in any way?

    • Tangent002

      All of that is fine. You can certainly fire someone for their behaviors while on the clock. You cannot fire them for who they are.

      • Reason2012

        Correct. But if “who they are” creates a disruptive work environment because they insist on parading “who they are”, then no matter “who they are” (LGBT or not), they are subject to disciplinary action or being fired.

        • Tangent002

          Again, ‘parading’ is an action.

    • jmichael39

      it doesn’t make that behavior okay. It makes hiring JUST because they are homosexual or TG illegal. It makes NOT hiring them because of that illegal. And it carves out special dispensation for religious organizations.

      • Reason2012

        We all know people who are fired will instantly try to sue claiming it was for “being” LGBT. This sort of law is a farce.

        • jmichael39

          So what if they try. Our justice system is such that they have the right to try to appeal to the law for their benefit. But the justice system doesn’t have to cooperate if what they’re asking for is outside the scope of the law.

          I’ll tell you what sort of law is a farce: laws that say TGs can’t use the bathroom of their choice. Seriously, tell me how anyone is going to make sure that someone entering a woman’s bathroom is really a woman? do you really want some ‘cop’ or rent-a-cop is stopping everyone who enters a woman’s bathroom and checking their genitalia? You want to see a Christian man suddenly become violent, just let someone try to check the genitalia of my wife or daughter as they enter a public restroom. Homosexuality and transgenderism are sins…of this I will not deviate. But I will not advocate for discrimination of a person because I have judged their sin more grotesque than any others.

          • Reason2012

            No, crying wolf when they’re being fired for their actions not for who they are is not a “right” – it makes it easy to abuse the law and get away with disrupting a business and making it easy to sue to get away with it.

            No one can use the bathroom of “their choice” – you are born a male, you use bathrooms designated for males. You are born a female, you use bathrooms designated for females. Females have the right to not have men walk in on them in bathrooms and locker rooms just because they’re pretending to be females that still have male genitalia – trying to promote that is discriminating against everyone else, while claiming to be against discrimination, which is disingenuous.

            And it’s not about “sin” – it’s about them discriminating against 99%+ of the population while dishonestly pretending to be against discrimination.

          • Agnes

            I think you missed jmichael39’s point. That law in unenforceable and ridiculous. To check people at the door of a restroom just to discriminate against a tiny portion of the population? Checking 99 people’s private parts to “catch” 1 person? It’s insane!

          • Reason2012

            That law in unenforceable and ridiculous. To check people at the door of a restroom just to discriminate against a tiny portion of the population?

            They used to use the women’s room anyway and not get caught. You have only to ask why in spite of this they decide to demand everyone be fully aware of it and pass laws to promote it when there were no problems before.

          • jmichael39

            That’s a bunch of hogwash. Tort laws do need to reformed but no anti-discrimination law invites litigiousness.

            Actually there are very few states that have laws restricting which bathroom a person can use.

            You still don’t get it do you…who is going to check my wife or my daughter to make sure they have the ‘right’ genitalia for the bathroom they use? You? We gonna rent cops to pat down people entering a bathroom? You want cameras in the stalls verifying gender? There is no way to enforce such a law unless such a person goes around exposing themselves or trying to molest the others in the bathroom. And guess what? There are already laws against that. TGs have been using women’s restrooms for decades and no one is worse for wear.

  • Saved

    THANK YOU! Mr Vice President, just like that you have turned your back against your Creator GOD, You and Trump are such Satanic FRAUDS, doing the WORK of your father ( THE DEVIL! ) SATAN!! READ John 8:41 and READ John 8:44.There is absolutely no doubt the WORD of God has no room for transgender sin, yes everybody sins, but lifestyle choices are worse, being Transgender is an,open rebellion against GOD’s word, and GOD’s WORD must come first! Everything ELSE,comes second!

    • Jason

      You sound like a street-corner preacher

  • Saved

    The Bible ( GODS WORD) will never change its the people that change and don’t care what God has said it is.God doesn’t want men and women to cross dress( Like Transgenders) portraying to be the opposite sex that he put them on this earth to be. God does not make mistakes if he puts you on this earth to be a man then that’s what you should be and not let Satan confuse you and put it in your mind that you are the other sex. God LOVES you and he is not a God of confusion. SATAN, is the,GOD of confusion,

    • Jason

      “The Bible ( GODS WORD) will never change its the people that change.” Correct… and that’s the problem. Cultures evolve; religious text does not. As we, as a culture, grow up, outdated religious text get left behind. The Greeks and Romans had a god and a myth for every natural phenomenon and as our understanding of the world grew, their ability to explain reality disintegrated.

      • Reason2012

        Cultures evolve; religious text does not.

        Yes, we’ve “evolved” to dehumanize human beings in the womb so we can slaughter them by the millions – 57 MILLION in the US alone and counting. Noone who really believes they’ll be facing God would do such a thing. Seems we’re devloving instead as we get away from God’s truth – seems “do not_kill” has become an inconvenience to many.

        religious text does not

        The truth does not need to change. Only those who hate the truth demand it change to conform to their own version of truth they want to force on everyone else via laws and lawsuits.

        1 + 1 = 2 for as long as we can remember – see how truth doesn’t need to “evolve’?

        • Jason

          Religion has been used to explain unexplainable (at the time) natural phenomenon. As we understand more, the gaps get smaller. 1+1 does not equal 2 because god.

          …abortions are a difficult and stressful decision for everyone involved. It’s a little more than an “inconvenience” 🙂

          • Reason2012

            I didn’t say 1+1=2 because God – just pointing out the dishonest claim of trying to pretend that things that do not change or ‘evolve’ must be false. The truth does not need to change or evolve.

            Abortions are far more than “difficult and stressful” for the one being_killed by it. Yes, I’m sure it was “difficult and stressful” for the Germans to slaughter Jewish citizens just because they were convinced they were not human beings. Just like many today have been convinced their daughter in the womb is “not a human being”.

            Saying “nothing did it – it just happened” does not explain the origin of life – or the origin of information in dna – or the origin of irreducible complexity – that’s just a weak attempt to misuse science in an attempt to attack the undeniable truth that we were designed / created – in effect the truth of God.

          • Ginger

            Our Heavenly Father’s enemy was very busy in the mid-1800s, such as the rapture theory in 1830 out of the mouth of an ill Scottish teenage to also explode in the world. The evolution theory was spouted by freemason, Charles Darwin in the mid-1800s. The book of Mormon published in 1830 written by a freemason. The god of Freemasonry is Lucifer that is emphasized by Albert Pike (1809-1891) born on Dec 29. US lawyer, historian, general. Masonic author.

            Are most Christians spiritually naked? You bet they are!

            Satan deceives the whole world and he’s not even here yet! Still many Christians refuse to study our Father’s Word and heed His warnings for themselves. James 4:4 Ye adulters and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. [KJV]

            Take that to the spiritual level, not a good place to be.

          • Jason

            “just pointing out the dishonest claim of trying to pretend that things that do not change or ‘evolve’ must be false.” My point is religious text are unable to adapt to reality as we grow and understand more. That’s what happened to the polytheists. They were unable to justify reality and are now dust in the wind.

            Abortions = holocaust? That’s a horrible comparison.

            Well for one, I do not say nothing did it – it just happened. We do not know how life started… or even the universe. We are ok with saying I don’t know.
            Two, evolution explains what happens after life began. It does not claim to explain abiogenesis. Science does not attack only report 🙂

          • Coach

            Actually Jason, 1+1=2 because God exists, for without Him there is no knowledge. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge and in Christ are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Let’s cut to the chase here. The God whom you blasphemously deny exists is the God who formed you in your mother’s womb, protected you from having the womb be your grave and sustains you today if you’re alive to read this.

            On the day of judgement, you will stand before the good God, whom you deny exists and be cast into an eternal lake of fire at the celebration of all the angels, because God has destroyed the wicked.

            You are an enemy of God and the only thing keeping you from diving headlong into the depths of hell is His common grace which He sheds on you for the moment as this life is a mere vapor. 100 years from now you will either regret every evil thing you’ve ever thought in your mind, every wicked blasphemy you’ve every typed with the hands God’s given you, every poisonous word you’ve ever spoken while in eternal torment or you will be resting in the presence of God, but that’s only if in His great kindness and mercy, He imputes the righteousness of the God man Christ Jesus to you.

            Jesus Christ, the perfect, eternally worthy Son of the living God, who is from everlasting to everlasting, endured the wrath of almighty God, every drop, for those who would inherit salvation through His atonement. He stands today at the right hand of God the Father interceding on behalf of sinners. Hallelujah, what a Savior!

            I pray He opens your eyes to the truth, but I assure you, unless He does, you will remain as you are and it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. You must be regenerated by the Spirit of God, you must have a work of God done in you causing you to hate what God hates and love what God loves. You must be entrusted to Christ Jesus alone for the salvation of your immortal soul.

            “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matthew 10:28

          • Chris

            “…1+1=2 because God exists, for without Him there is no
            knowledge.”

            This is just wrong on so many levels. 1+1=2 because humans noticed that if we add one object to another object then we get two objects. It has NOTHING to do with God’s existence.

            “The God whom you blasphemously deny exists is the God
            who formed you in your mother’s womb, protected you from having the womb be your grave and sustains you today if you’re alive to read this.”

            Blasphemy is defined as taking the Lord’s name in vain. It has NOTHING to do with denying the existence of said God.

            You then demonstrate a revenge fantasy. Is that mature?

            The rest is you making assertion after assertion with no evidence to back it up. Only a bible quote [which is a claim, not evidence by the way].

          • Jason

            God did not invent math. Math is universal. There may be different symbols over different languages, but the fundamentals are the same. Even if the universe was empty, math would still be true.

            “The God whom you blasphemously deny exists is the God who formed you in your mother’s womb, protected you from having the womb be your grave and sustains you today if you’re alive to read this.” You are discrediting a lot of biology… and the “hard work ;)” my parent did.

            “On the day of judgement” how do you know?

            “enemy?” What did I do?

            100 years from now I will probably be decomposing somewhere, giving back to the earth as bug/bacterial food and competing the circle of life.

            “He (Jesus) stands today at the right hand of God the Father.” I thought he was god. Part of the trinity, right? All the same thing? That’s how you guys get around the whole polytheistic thing.

            “I pray He opens your eyes.” I hope you open your eyes.

          • gpenglase

            No God didn’t invent what we call mathematics. Because this is human representation of the structured and ordered universe around us, which has laws which determine the way it operates within extremely finite limits and variances. A universe which has immense complexity, most of which we know needed to exist at the same time – couldn’t have *developed* over time magically because it either works as it is or it doesn’t.

            So we have over time constructed a way to express this order. Mathematics is far from perfect – it is not absolute in it’s correctness in how it describes things, but evolves as we learn about the world and the universe, which intrinsically *don’t* change.

            So in essence, God did not invent the way we describe 1 + 1. But he did invent the incredibly complex system which we are describing. And many of those people who came up with the way that we described it believed wholly in God because of what science and mathematics reveals, and the incredible unstoppable order that keeps it all happening, which we still cannot explain.

          • Jason

            “most of which we know needed to exist at the same time.” Explain

            “Mathematics is far from perfect – it is not absolute in it’s correctness in how it describes things.” Math can’t be wrong. It is universal… fundamental. People may use math incorrectly… I think that’s what you are referring to.

      • jmichael39

        what you call “evolve” could quite easily be more accurately called “devolve”. Think about this so-called evolution of mankind. With one example I will show what I mean. The Bible clearly calls for sexual behavior to be confined to marriage (I am speaking in the most general sense…not speaking at all about sexual relations between same sex…a totally other subject). But there is little doubt that while many characters in the Bible did not live by this command, it was nonetheless still a command of God. And now, as our society has ‘evolved’, sexual behavior of almost any kind is not only accepted but encouraged. Very little sexual behavior is discouraged anymore.

        And how has this evolution effected mankind? Well, let’s look at in reverse. How would the world be different if, by some miracle, all humanity could and would choose to obey just that one command of God?

        –very few teen pregnancies

        –far few needs for abortion

        –hundreds of billions of dollars spent over the decades on pornography, now available to help feed and care for the impoverished and needy.

        –no more prostitution.

        –virtually no rape (none outside of marriage)

        –no pedophilia

        –almost no sexually transmitted diseases

        –no sexual harassment in the work place.

        –less divorce (major cause being infidelity)

        –less screwed up kids (major cause being broken families)

        –less financial struggles for families (no money spent on pornography, mistresses, prostituted, divorces and so on).

        I could go on and on as the dominoes fall. Our society is not Evolving because of it’s rejection of God…it is DEvolving.

        • Jason

          Who waits till their married for intercourse? 😉
          marital rape is a real thing.
          No pedophilia? Unless they marry and rape a kid.
          Decreased STD’s. Well due to decreased sex.
          No sexual harassment? Debatable.
          Decreased divorce rate. Debatable. I say increase because you don’t know he other person in bed (there’s some weird people out there. Imagine day one of being married and your wife is like “finally! Now pee on me.”)
          less screwed up kids? Debatable.
          Who is still paying for porn?

          …If people would stop killing each other then murder rates would drop completely 🙂 We live in a real world with real problems that needs real solutions. Contraception Education has prevent teen pregnancy, lowered abortion rates, and reduced STD transmission.

          • jmichael39

            1. You make my point for me…our ‘evolved’ world tells us that waiting till marriage for sex is foolish.

            2. What did I say? Except for marital rape there would be no rape.

            3. Which is illegal in this country…just as marital rape is. Should they not be simply because they are against God’s law too?

            4. No, decreased because you have ONE partner. Almost no way for it to spread.

            5. Who’s going to harass someone sexually if they are compliant to sex kept within marriage? Gees.

            6. Decreased? are you nuts? Read the statistics…nearly 40% of all divorces claim infidelity as a major cause. And that’s with several states having no-fault divorce laws. Divorce would definitely go down.

            7. It is unquestionable that children suffer from broken families. There is no question they suffer from parents who spend their money on prostitutes and pornography and split families. There is only a debate in the mind of a fool who can’t stand the idea that a supernatural being might actually know better than they do. But thanks for proving my point about the devolution of mankind.

          • Jason

            You through out a hard “whst if” which turns this whole thing philosophical. If everyone chose to wait till marriage for intercourse, then what would the world look lol me today?

            I believe divorce rates would be through the roof going from marriage to marriage trying to find a sexually compatible partner. I’ve been with some crazies and I’ve been with boring “corpses” … you know what I mean; Just a sack o’ potatoes. But i wouldn’t have known that until I had sex with them.

            And if for dome reason you chose to stay with your very good chance of an unsatisfactory sex life, then prostitution would also be a big thing… married prostitutes of course.

            You could also say that swinger parties would go up to try and satisfy that basic human need not supplied by your incompatible spouse, which in turn could make STD’s go up.

            All-in-all this is all hypothetical and you need to get your head out of the clouds and face reality… If If’s and but’s were candy and nuts 🙂

          • jmichael39

            Your entire argument sidesteps the premise of the presentation. It does ASSUME that all people choose to and are capable of committing to a monogamous relationship and to waiting till marriage for sex. Nothing you suggest would remotely happen under those conditions. The point of the exercise being that mankind’s views of sexuality are NOT more evolved than God’s (as presented in the Bible)…they lead to all sorts of things that God would have rather we not have to experience…like divorce and sexually transmitted diseases and so on.

          • Jason

            You didn’t say monogamous. You said no sex till marriage. Monogamy is a different story. We, as humans, evolved to be a social monogamous species (monogamous with polygamous tendencies). It’s biological.

          • jmichael39

            What do you think confining sex to marriage means?

            The only thing ‘biological’ about sex is that its a biological event. There is no biological element to being monogamous or polyamorous. Whom you have sex with and when is a decision not a biological mandate. Stop trying to blame you nature for being unfaithful to your spouse or for any other form of sexual behavior. That’s just another vain attempt to be liberated from the responsibility for your own decisions.

          • Jason

            I Didn’t want to get weird on here, but the proof is in the puddin’. For one example, we can compare testicular sizes with our close relatives chimps and gorillas. Chimpanzees have large testicles because they are very promiscuous. They evolved to be large to complete with other males sperm in hopes of offspring. Gorillas have small testicles they are polygamous (one male with multiple females). They evolved to be smaller because competition of sperm is not a threat for offspring. Humans have testicicles that are in the middle of the two. We tend to be both promiscuous and monogamous.
            Are you married? If so did you marry a virgin? I did not. I am monogamous to my wife but I also dated and slept with others before I met her.

            “Stop trying to blame you nature” not blaming nature. Just reporting facts.

            “being unfaithful to your spouse.” I am very faithful to my wife 🙂

            “or for any other form of sexual behavior.” …like butt stuff? Yeah, we did that.

          • jmichael39

            Well, you did get weird and just utterly embarrassed yourself. That just may have been the single most illogical and ignorant response to a post of mine ever. But thank you for the laugh.

          • Jason

            “illogical and ignorant.” How so?

            “embarrassed” nope 🙂

          • jmichael39

            in every way, so. You traversed more logical fallacies in one post that I’ve encountered in an hour long debate.

            You should be…the fact that you’re not simply adds a cherry to the top over your ignoramus sundae.

          • Jason

            Explain

          • mj58

            Yours would be more like a gerbil’s.

          • Jason

            Insults 🙂 I like it

      • Amos Moses

        “Cultures evolve; religious text does not. As we, as a culture, grow up, outdated religious text get left behind.”

        Culture devolves …. God remains and always will ………..

        • Jason

          “Culture devolves.” To you. I think we are way better now than what we were before. women can vote and have careers. Slavery is abolished. Our kids are becoming smarter than us due to a decent education system. You know cultural evolution 🙂

          • Amos Moses

            education does not make you smarter …. as is obvious from your statement ……..

          • Jason

            “education does not make you smarter.” ……?…….. Hahahahaha XD
            I got laughter tears.

    • jmichael39

      And frankly, God has never shown one ounce of discrimination against any sinner…including you and me. He died equally for all of us…and gives each and every one of us till our last breaths to turn to Him. And the one who receives Him in his dying breath will receive the same reward of eternal life as you or I. There is no sin in showing other sinners, including homosexuals, the same grace we were afforded, without discrimination. But you will have to make an account to Jesus for every person you turned away from heaven just because of your personal disgust for their sins.

      • Amos Moses

        “But you will have to make an account to Jesus for every person you turned away from heaven just because of your personal disgust for their sins.”

        well we will be held accountable for every idle word …… but we have no power or authority to turn anyone from heaven ……. that is all Jesus work ……. and not of our own ………….

        • jmichael39

          We can play with words as to what “turned away from heaven” means…but you know full well that I am referring to the reality that, yes, you and I can either work WITH the Holy Spirit or against him. In other words, you and I don’t get to decide which sinners are worth loving and which ones we should be hard-nosed and cruel to. We are so good at saying we should love the sinner but hate the sin…well, it certainly does appear that many of us have decided that we can hate some sin and love only some sinners.

          • Amos Moses

            well … the Holy Spirit prompts us to speak the truth ….. and if the truth is rejected …… it is not on us ….. and scripture tells us what god thinks of those in homosexuality ….. and it is that that turns them away from Christ …. not us ….. they cannot accept the truth ….. they cannot accept Christ ….. and until Christ gives them the gift of repentance …… it is not our works but Christs works that offends them ……….

            ” you and I don’t get to decide which sinners are worth loving”

            ah … yes we do …….. love is telling them the truth about Christ ….. and nothing less …….. and they deem that to be cruel …… not my problem ………

          • jmichael39

            you don’t really get the idea of love, do you? Sorry to have offended you with all this talk of God’s grace and mercy and love. Have a good day.

          • Amos Moses

            telling the truth is love ….. not putting up with others nonsense and lies they tell themselves, and holding them accountable is love ….. there is no “grace” for unrepentant sin ………… nor mercy for those who will not listen to the truth ……… C’Ya …. would not want to be ‘Ya when you answer for all those idle words you just wrote ……..

          • jmichael39

            No sir….speaking the truth is not love. By speaking the truth IN love, you show your maturity in Christ.

            “speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ.”

            You hold only your brothers and sisters in Christ accountable. The world is held accountable TO GOD, through the Law…not through you or me preaching the law at them as though we’re better than them.

            “7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.” – Eph. 2:7-9

            There is no place in God’s grace for man’s action…it is an open gift to any who will receive by faith…lest any man should boast.

            I’ll stand before God clean and forgiven by the same grace as you, Amos. And until that day I shall stand and offer that same opportunity for grace to anyone who will receive it. I dare you to do that same. Instead of sitting there gloating that you’re somehow better than the others who haven’t received it yet.

          • Amos Moses

            “No sir….speaking the truth is not love. By speaking the truth IN love, you show your maturity in Christ.”

            putting powdered sugar on a smelly lump of dung ….. is not telling the truth IN love or anything else ….. love is not letting people off the hook for the evil they do ……..

          • jmichael39

            Who said anything about putting powdered sugar on the truth. You ASSume that because I choose to love sinners of all kinds that I don’t make it very clear what God’s word says about sin. You, on the other hand, in your pursuit to make sure everyone knows what a disgusting flea-bag sinner they are (and what a saint you are) fail to put love in you words.

            And you are so wrong…He came that He might take away our sins, not condemn us for them. It is only in rejecting that offer to take them away that we condemn ourselves and are condemned by the law. I John 3:4-5. And no one has eternally rejected it until they have rejected it unto their death. How sad that you would rather condemn these people for their sins before their rejection of God’s mercy and grace is complete. Do you really rejoice in the eternal damnation of even one?

            I have had family members who have rejected God’s grace even till death. And if i could, I would give up the rest of my life if God would give them one more moment’s chance to choose life. What would you give up for the chance to see even one saved who might not have otherwise been saved. And rather that twist my words into saying that someone is actually saved by our actions, bear in mind this, while God does not need me to save anyone, he chooses to use me. Just as he has no use for our tithe, but he asks for it anyway and uses that money for good.

            I am angry at you. I don’t dislike you. I am grateful that you will live in eternity with me. But, brother, you have, by some means, lost your tender heart for the lost and replaced it with a heart of stone.

          • Amos Moses

            “I am angry at you.” …….. fine …….. but that is not christian ….. that is the beginning of murder ……. “lost your tender heart for the lost and replaced it with a heart of stone.” …. no, people do not come to repentance UNLESS they understand what repentance means and what EXACTLY of what they need to repent ……… we were given the LAW ……… AND THEN we were given the Gospel …. and there is a reason for that ……….. because you see …….. i want them in HEAVEN just as much as you ….. but the fact is ….. it is not up to me or you ….. “I have had family members who have rejected God’s grace even till death.” …. and that is sad to hear ….. some are preselected for grace …. and some are preselected for damnation ….. that is Christs will ….. and not of our own ….. lest any man should boast …..

            “Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin (Rom. 3:20).” – Paul

            “What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet (Rom. 7:7).” – Paul

            “Explain the Ten Commandments and obey the divine injunction: show my people their transgressions, and the house of Jacob their sins. Open up the spirituality of the law as our Lord did, and show how it is broken by evil thoughts, intents, and imaginations. By this means many sinners will be pricked in their hearts”. – Charles Spurgeon

            “I do not believe that any man can preach the gospel who does not preach the Law. The Law is the needle, and you cannot draw the silken thread of the gospel through a man’s heart unless you first send the needle of the Law to make way for it. If men do not understand the Law, they will not feel they are sinners. And if they are not consciously sinners, they will never value the sin offering. There is no healing a man till the Law has wounded him, no making him alive till the Law has slain him”. – Charles Spurgeon

            “To tell a man he is a sinner without telling him what sin is, is like telling him he is under arrest without telling him what he’s charged with.” – Ray Comfort

          • jmichael39

            sorry meant to say, NOT angry with you. No freudian slip

          • Amos Moses

            kewl …. i am not angry with you either ….. but men have to understand the law ….. otherwise forgiveness from Christ is of no effect ….. ultimately His sheep hear His voice and follow ….. we do not know who the sheep are …… until such time as they reveal themselves …… peace to you ……..

          • jmichael39

            As for the rest of your response, you are incorrect in suggesting the law came first. The law came in after the first covenant in the garden was broken. The works of Jesus on earth were designed to replace the law and restore the original covenant made with Adam.

            I suggest a thorough exegetical study of Romans 5-8 and Gal. 3&4…or just do Gal. 3&4 to get the reader’s digest version.

            I would gladly discuss this with you further after you read them and express your thoughts. But for now they best articulate my thoughts regarding your positions about the law.

      • Yvonne Celeste Lee

        Wrong. Jesus´ message was always, Go and sin no more. And Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and not do what I say? And Revelations says our rewards will be according to our good works (not our salvation, but our rewards. Salvation is by faith in Jesus. But faith without works is dead, and dead men don´t inherit the Kingdom of God. Your doctrine sounds like a doctrine of demons, not of our Savior. Better get it right. It is a matter of life and death….for yourself and others who believe the lie.

        • jmichael39

          No, his message not ALWAYS go and sin no more. That was his message when someone accepted the mercy and grace he offered. He had many messages and the first was always about love and grace and mercy.

          Matt. 7:21-23 is spoken to those who already call him “Lord, Lord”…not those have not yet accepted his grace and mercy.

          If you read what I said, I didn’t speak of any “reward” except the ‘reward’ of eternal life. And until such time as either our Lord returns or a person breathes their last breath on this earth, they should be given every chance to see, and experience the love of God. What love are you showing them by advocating that those who commit a particular type of sin be treated worse than all other sinners?

          “Your doctrine sounds like a doctrine of demons, not of our Savior.” – believe what you wish…but the God of Heaven is not a God who treats any sinner better or worse than any other. You’re advocating a doctrine that does that very thing.

          You’re right, it IS a matter of life and death and you’re insistence on treating one class of sinner worse than any other class of sinner puts you in a place where you are impeding the work of the Holy Spirit. Let’s put it this way, would you insist in passing a law that permits discrimination against those who’ve lusted in their heart after another woman or against someone drinks excessively in their private life (but does no one any harm)? If not, why not? Why would you think it acceptable in God’s eyes to discriminated again one type of sinner but not another type?

          • Yvonne Celeste Lee

            First I am not advocating a a doctrine that treats one sinner better or worse than another, although if you read the Scriptures carefully, you will see that there are sins God calls an abomination and even scriptures that says God hates such people (Psalm 11 – The LORD tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.). Yes, I know, it is shocking to us who have been taught only the love and grace of God and rarely his justice. True the sins God says are an abomination, such as homosexuality and pride, are not always the ones we would think, but that there are sins that are worse than others in the effect they have on ourselves and others is beyond question. Though I am not a Catholic, I absolutely understand why they have classed some sins as mortal and others as not. Moreover, the sin of homosexuality is NOT a private sin that affects no one but those involved. Studies have been done proving they are constantly on the prowl for more converts they can pervert to their cause and that their perversion leads to many evils of our day that are hurtful to society as a whole. And I do have a dog in the race. My own brother, the apple of my eye, who accepted Jesus with me when he was 10 years old and was in every way normal sexually, went off to college and was perverted by a group of homosexuals in his martial arts class. He walked away from the faith, became hateful and angry and turned to Buddhist theology. He loves to get on Facebook and spew his vitriol to all who will listen. God will not be mocked. People who think they can go on sinning against God and rage against those who try to lovingly help them love Jesus and leave this lifestyle behind for the good of their own eternal destiny cannot expect God to offer them some sort of death bed conversion. Though God´s grace is great, He is not mocked. We live in the end days and God said this sin would abound in these days. But those who coddle it and don´t see it for what it is, are being deceived. We would not be defending murderers or adulterers or liars or thieves or arrogant people, so why are so many people willing to fight for our acceptance of homosexuals? The blind leading the blind?

          • jmichael39

            “Yes, I know, it is shocking to us who have been taught only the love and grace of God and rarely his justice.” – you assume too much. There is no limitations to God’s love or his justice. They are not mutually exclusive. But justice comes at the end, at the judgment seat…not now. Yes, there are consequences to sins in this lifetime, even for the repentant. But judgment comes at the end.

            “True the sins God says are an abomination, such as homosexuality and pride, are not always the ones we would think, but that there are sins that are worse than others in the effect they have on ourselves and others is beyond question.” – Two things here…if pride is on a par with homosexuality, and it is, then why would want homosexuals discriminated against and not the proud? And second, there is tiny distinction all your comments fail to make…you’re talking almost exclusively about God’s view of sins, not the sinner. If Christ was willing to die so that every sinner could have a chance up until the moment they take their last breath, then they’re just as worthy of my love until that moment as well. It has nothing to do with how I feel about their sins…only them. And therein lay the really problem for most Christians as I said earlier…we like to talk about loving the sinner but hating the sin, but we have a very different time separating the two. And we really need to learn to do that.

            “People who think they can go on sinning against God and rage against those who try to lovingly help them love Jesus and leave this lifestyle behind for the good of their own eternal destiny cannot expect God to offer them some sort of death bed conversion. ” – where in the world do you get that from Scripture? I see nothing in the Bible that suggests even that a person must convert within 2 weeks of death or else it’s no good. Who in the world do you think you are to even suggest a thing?

            “Though God´s grace is great, He is not mocked.” – you say that as though somehow if someone mocks God that he throws a hissy fit and tosses away any grace he might have had for them. God’s grace is infinite. If he can show grace to you or me or Paul, then he can show grace to ANYONE who calls upon him, even after they’ve mocked him or cursed him or murdered people.

            “We would not be defending murderers or adulterers or liars or thieves or arrogant people, so why are so many people willing to fight for our acceptance of homosexuals?” – Who’s “defending” anyone. Accepting any sinner does not necessitate accepting, let alone defending, their sins. And again, what are we talking about in this article…discriminating against people because of their sexual orientation. There is NO justification in the Bible for discriminating against anyone…especially in the NT.

            Favoritism is partiality or bias. To show favoritism is to give preference to one person over others with equal claims. It is similar to discrimination and may be based on conditions such as social class, wealth, clothing, actions, etc.

            The Bible is clear that favoritism is not God’s will for our lives. First, favoritism is incongruent with God’s character: “God does not show favoritism” (Romans 2:11). All are equal before Him. Ephesians 6:9 says, “There is no favoritism with him.” Colossians 3:25 teaches God’s fairness in judgment: “Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism.”

            Second, the Bible teaches Christians are not to show favoritism: “My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don’t show favoritism” (James 2:1). The context concerns the treatment of rich and poor in the church. James points out that treating someone differently based on his financial status or how he is dressed is wrong.

            Third, the Bible calls favoritism sin: “If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself,’ you are doing right. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers” (James 2:8-9). Favoritism is a serious offense against God’s call to love one’s neighbor as oneself.

            Fourth, church leaders are especially charged not to show favoritism. Paul commanded Timothy, a young church leader, “I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism” (1 Timothy 5:21).

            Favoritism is a problem we still deal with. Favoritism and partiality are not from God, and Christians are called to love. As humans, we tend to form judgments based on selfish, personal criteria rather than seeing others as God sees them. May we grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and follow His example of treating every person with God’s love (John 3:16).

        • Tony

          (1) Judge not, lest Yee be Judged !!!! Jesus Loves everyone And Gender is Not a Sin.

          I am Gender-fluid. They have not idea of what it is like to be different.
          I have Cis-Gender friends the talk with me even on the phone and tell
          me You are a girl or you sound like one. I am just being normal and
          just talking. A few of my friends in-person say that same thing. I do
          not know how to be and i am not trying to fake something i am not.
          It is Not a Act for me. NOT
          a mental Disease and NOT a Sin. ________________________________ Let
          me Educate you a bit. By the way i am a Republican , >Not a
          Libtard The Transgender
          Brain development___________________________________ How
          does the M to F Transgender? Like the normal male embryo,
          the Male to female Transgender brain it starts out female
          Then between the 8th and the 24th weeks, the “XY” chromosomes
          introduce testosterone hormonal changes, BUT hormonal washes
          as faulty. They are either insufficient or ill timed. When
          this happens, the fetus develops a male body. However, some of
          the default (original) female brain processes to remain intact.
          Thus, the brain’s gender Identity remain intact. Thus,the brain
          gender Identity remains Female. This means that Transgender males
          whose process of a masculinization was incomplete, their default
          female brains still function. The degree of arrested development
          can very. The original brain circuitry that was missed in the
          Masculinizing process provides a continuing Feminine influence.
          this explains why many transgender, biological males know. from
          as early as the age of 3 years old that they are actually members
          of the opposite gender. You are born with this unlike Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual).
          Though they too have some of the same traits. Gender is not sexuality but,
          it may effect it.I know this in my own life.*** Ultimately everyone
          needs and deserves love and be who they are in their Gender or who they
          love. *** ***Trans-gender people are not the perverts and pedophiles
          like 80% of the unintelligent population thinks. what Morons to think
          badly. You Unintelligent fools to believe as this. You bring in the
          Bible and talk about Homosexuals OK that is a sin . Trans-people are
          Not the same as that. John 14:6 King James Version (KJV) 6 Jesus saith
          unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the
          Father, but by me. *** Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile,
          neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all
          one in Christ Jesus.***__ I AM CREATED BY GOD > I am trans-gender and i
          am still a Christian. Judge not lest ye be judged. The Trans-gender
          people have been around since before Jesus was on earth. John 3:16 i am
          saved. Your Judgement on my is a Sin. Let those without sin cast the
          first stone ! _ Matthew 7:1-3King James Version (KJV) 7 Judge not, that
          ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged:
          and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And
          why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest
          not the beam that is in thine own eye? We are ALL crated in His likeness
          that is BOTH Male and Female.We are Created in his Likeness BOTH male and Female.
          To make a Mix of the two in one person is Not sacrilegious. Judge not me, I am a
          Christian as well. You can NOT pick am Choose which of GOD’s laws to follow.

          • Yvonne Celeste Lee

            Thank you for the education. I have noticed the last several years how many people there are nowadays that could be mistaken for either gender. I have my own theory about why this is happening. I think it has something to do with the chemicals we are bathed in, eat, breathe, etc. It could be related to the plastics, pesticides, margarine and other fake food we, and our parents before us, ate that have fake estrogens that take the place of the natural ones and cause disruption in the body. I have seen pictures of fish in water very polluted with plastics, etc., that had messed up sexual organs. If you are a Christian and not living in sin, any negative judgments don´t apply to you. Be at peace.

      • Chris

        Well said.

    • Chris

      “God does not make mistakes…”

      So if a child is born with a genetic disease then the child is just the way God intended and nothing should be done to help?

      • Coach

        God makes no mistakes, He’s not the author of sin, but because of man’s sin, the world is cursed, because of sin, there is death. On what basis can you say with certainty that a child born with a disease needs help?

        • Chris

          “God makes no mistakes, He’s not the author of sin, but because of man’s sin, the world is cursed, because of sin, there is death”

          Then you could claim that crossdressing is the result of this being a cursed world. And, since being handicapped is not evil, then crossdressing is not evil. Be consistent.

          “On what basis can you say with certainty that a child born with a disease needs help?”

          On the basis of the child being unable to do something that children of his/her age are easily able to accomplish.

          Finally according to the bible only God can create. Yet if an unguided process managed to create things like genetic diseases then such a thing must be able to create also. So which is it? Is it that the bible is wrong and a sin-cursed nature can create things or is it that God is responsible for people being born with genetic diseases?

          • Tony

            I am Gender-fluid. They have not idea of what it is like to be different.
            I have Cis-Gender friends the talk with me even on the phone and tell
            me You are a girl or you sound like one. I am just being normal and
            just talking. A few of my friends in-person say that same thing. I do
            not know how to be and i am not trying to fake something i am not.
            It is Not a Act for me. NOT
            a Disease and NOT a Sin. ________________________________ Let
            me Educate you a bit. By the way i am a Republican , >Not a
            Libtard The Transgender
            Brain development___________________________________ How
            does the M to F Transgender? Like the normal male embryo,
            the Male to female Transgender brain it starts out female
            Then between the 8th and the 24th weeks, the “XY” chromosomes
            introduce testosterone hormonal changes, BUT hormonal washes
            as faulty. They are either insufficient or ill timed. When
            this happens, the fetus develops a male body. However, some of
            the default (original) female brain processes to remain intact.
            Thus, the brain’s gender Identity remain intact. Thus,the brain
            gender Identity remains Female. This means that Transgender males
            whose process of a masculinization was incomplete, their default
            female brains still function. The degree of arrested development
            can very. The original brain circuitry that was missed in the
            Masculinizing process provides a continuing Feminine influence.
            this explains why many transgender, biological males know. from
            as early as the age of 3 years old that they are actually members
            of the opposite gender. You are born with this unlike Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual).
            Though they too have some of the same traits. Gender is not sexuality but,
            it may effect it.I know this in my own life.*** Ultimately everyone
            needs and deserves love and be who they are in their Gender or who they
            love. *** ***Trans-gender people are not the perverts and pedophiles
            like 80% of the unintelligent population thinks. what Morons to think
            badly. You Unintelligent fools to believe as this. You bring in the
            Bible and talk about Homosexuals OK that is a sin . Trans-people are
            Not the same as that. John 14:6 King James Version (KJV) 6 Jesus saith
            unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the
            Father, but by me. *** Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile,
            neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all
            one in Christ Jesus.***__ I AM CREATED BY GOD > I am trans-gender and i
            am still a Christian. Judge not lest ye be judged. The Trans-gender
            people have been around since before Jesus was on earth. John 3:16 i am
            saved. Your Judgement on my is a Sin. Let those without sin cast the
            first stone ! _ Matthew 7:1-3King James Version (KJV) 7 Judge not, that
            ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged:
            and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And
            why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest
            not the beam that is in thine own eye? We are ALL crated in His likeness
            that is BOTH Male and Female.We are Created in his Likeness BOTH male and Female.
            To make a Mix of the two in one person is Not sacrilegious. Judge not me, I am a
            Christian as well. You can NOT pick am Choose which of GOD’s laws to follow.

          • Chris

            “You can NOT pick am Choose which of GOD’s laws to follow.”

            I’m not, but then I’m not a Christian I’m a Zoroastrian. I also find it strange that you would refer to people who would champion your rights as libtards. Perhaps if you wish tolerance you should extend it? What do you think?

          • Coach

            Crossdressing is wrong because God made male and female with distinctions. Deuteronomy 22:5 “A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God.”

            This pertains to a man or woman altering their appearance in order to appear as the opposite gender.

            Disease, handicapps, sickness, and death are results of a sin-cursed world. The thoughts and actions of wicked people are what brings God’s judgement.

            You say every child should be helped to accomplish what others their age can easily accomplish, based on what? If you align with darwinian evolution, it would be consistent for you to say they are weak and vulnerable, therefore they should be killed.

            Don’t question me about what’s right and wrong unless, you can tell me right from wrong based on truth. If you have legitimate questions ask away, but if you just want to be another foolish person who professes that the earth is 5 billion years old, global warming is a serious threat, there’s no proof for God’s existence, etc. please don’t waste your time. For me to post scripture, etc. on the internet is to get the Word of God out, but for you, it’s to please your wicked desires as you hate God so much, you deny the true and living God.

            When you say according to the Bible, I don’t know what you’re talking about, please give me the specific portion of scripture you’re referring to.

          • Chris

            “Crossdressing is wrong because God made male and female with distinctions.”

            Actually DNA does that. But this doesn’t answer my argument. I’ll repeat it “Then you could claim that crossdressing is the result of this being a
            cursed world. And, since being handicapped is not evil, then
            crossdressing is not evil. Be consistent.”

            “Deuteronomy 22:5 “A woman shall not wear anything that
            pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God.””

            The Hebrew Testament also rules out eating shellfish and men cutting their hair. Obey those? No? Then you are cherry picking the bible.

            “You say every child should be helped to accomplish what others their age can easily accomplish, based on what?”

            Based on evidence.

            “If you align with darwinian evolution, it would be consistent for you to say they are weak and vulnerable, therefore they should be killed.”

            Actually what you are describing is known as SOCIAL Dawinism. It has NOTHING to do with evolution. It is a philosophical school.

            But consider this also.
            1) Evolution merely describes what happens NOT what should happen. Physics, for example, tells us what would happen if you threw a baby off a ten story building. Physics doesn’t encourage anyone to do it.

            Likewise the theory of evolution describes how life diversified after it started.

            2) Evolution occurs at the species level NOT at the individual level. That being the case there are hundreds of examples of animals which help others of their kind who are injured, in need of assistance, etc. Such benevolence actually makes the species MORE likely to survive since the group works together and since a group is better than a bunch of individuals then such species tend to do better at survival.

            “Don’t question me about what’s right and wrong unless, you can tell me right from wrong based on truth.”

            As to ethics I am a Rossian deontologist. So given that it would seem I do have a right to question you about right and wrong.

            “If you have legitimate questions ask away, but if you
            just want to be another foolish person who professes that the earth is 5 billion years old, global warming is a serious threat, there’s no proof for God’s existence, etc.”

            So you’re not interested in evidence or science only in your conclusions which you’ve already reached. Got it.

          • Chris

            “Crossdressing is wrong because God made male and female with distinctions.”

            That is a non-sequitur fallacy. You then go on to quote a bible verse against crossdressing. Tell me, does God say to do something because it is the right thing to do? Or does God say to do it make it the right thing?

            If your answer is the first then we don’t need the bible to tell us right from wrong, we need logic. If your answer is the second one then there was no right and wrong till God gave a command. That means cross dressing isn’t really wrong, God just decided that it was.

    • Balerion

      Doesn’t matter. The Bible is NOT the law of the land.

    • Tony

      GOD doesn’t care what gender you are. He Love all people. I am Gender-fluid. They have not idea of what it is like to be different.
      I have Cis-Gender friends the talk with me even on the phone and tell
      me You are a girl or you sound like one. I am just being normal and
      just talking. A few of my friends in-person say that same thing. I do
      not know how to be and i am not trying to fake something i am not.
      It is Not a Act for me. NOT
      a Disease and NOT a Sin. ________________________________ Let
      me Educate you a bit. By the way i am a Republican , >Not a
      Libtard The Transgender
      Brain development___________________________________ How
      does the M to F Transgender? Like the normal male embryo,
      the Male to female Transgender brain it starts out female
      Then between the 8th and the 24th weeks, the “XY” chromosomes
      introduce testosterone hormonal changes, BUT hormonal washes
      as faulty. They are either insufficient or ill timed. When
      this happens, the fetus develops a male body. However, some of
      the default (original) female brain processes to remain intact.
      Thus, the brain’s gender Identity remain intact. Thus,the brain
      gender Identity remains Female. This means that Transgender males
      whose process of a masculinization was incomplete, their default
      female brains still function. The degree of arrested development
      can very. The original brain circuitry that was missed in the
      Masculinizing process provides a continuing Feminine influence.
      this explains why many transgender, biological males know. from
      as early as the age of 3 years old that they are actually members
      of the opposite gender. You are born with this unlike Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual).
      Though they too have some of the same traits. Gender is not sexuality but,
      it may effect it.I know this in my own life.*** Ultimately everyone
      needs and deserves love and be who they are in their Gender or who they
      love. *** ***Trans-gender people are not the perverts and pedophiles
      like 80% of the unintelligent population thinks. what Morons to think
      badly. You Unintelligent fools to believe as this. You bring in the
      Bible and talk about Homosexuals OK that is a sin . Trans-people are
      Not the same as that. John 14:6 King James Version (KJV) 6 Jesus saith
      unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the
      Father, but by me. *** Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile,
      neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all
      one in Christ Jesus.***__ I AM CREATED BY GOD > I am trans-gender and i
      am still a Christian. Judge not lest ye be judged. The Trans-gender
      people have been around since before Jesus was on earth. John 3:16 i am
      saved. Your Judgement on my is a Sin. Let those without sin cast the
      first stone ! _ Matthew 7:1-3King James Version (KJV) 7 Judge not, that
      ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged:
      and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And
      why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest
      not the beam that is in thine own eye? We are ALL crated in His likeness
      that is BOTH Male and Female.We are Created in his Likeness BOTH male and Female.
      To make a Mix of the two in one person is Not sacrilegious. Judge not me, I am a
      Christian as well. You can NOT pick am Choose which of GOD’s laws to follow.

  • msicairos

    No doubt; So called Christians elected leaders continue to COMPROMISE; Jesus warned us about the yeast/Leaven, Matthew 16:6, Mark 8:15, just a little compromise will damage the whole batch. If they are not 100% true to God’s Word (Bible) then your lukewarm. And we know what God/Jesus says about being lukewarm!

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    White people and their servants need Judeo-Christian values for a proper society. Supporting sins just brings down the wrath of God sooner or later.

  • Natalie

    Trying hard not to say told you so….

  • Trilemma

    Of course Pence is going to defend Trump. It’s either that or hear Trump say, “You’re fired.”

  • Robert

    Pence the poster boy for the church of Norway.

  • “Vice-President Mike Pence said anti-LGBT discrimination had ‘no place’ in Donald Trump’s administration as he backed the president’s decision to uphold protective measures for federal workers.”

    Let me see if I have this correct. I’m sure that Trump and Pence don’t want to be accused of discrimination and hypocrisy, so I guess this means that they’ll be submitting similar policy for murders, kidnappers, and rapists since, like sodomy, they’re all capital crimes according to Only One who has a the right to determine what is and what is not a capital crime.

    For more on how Yahweh’s immutable moral law applies and should be implemented today, see free online book “Law and Kingdom: Their Relevance Under the New Covenant.” Click on my name, then our website. Go to our Online Books page and scroll down to title.

    Then find out how much you REALLY know about the Constitution as compared to the Bible. Take our 10-question Constitution Survey in the right-hand sidebar and receive a complimentary copy of a book that EXAMINES the Constitution by the Bible.

  • Apparently Trump hasn’t figured out how to make money for himself from its repeal.