Roman Catholic Group Requests ‘Pope Francis’ Refer to Mary as ‘Co-Redemptrix With Jesus’

Photo Credit: Lloyd Baltazar

The International Marian Association has requested that the leader of Roman Catholicism, Jorge Bergoglio, also known as Pope Francis, refer to Mary as “co-redemptrix with Jesus the redeemer” during the 100th year anniversary of the purported apparitions of Mary in Fatima, Portugal.

The Theological Commission of the Marian Association, which is comprised of 30 supportive entities, including Vatican Secretariat of State Florian Kolfhaus, Andrew Apostoli of the Eternal Word Television Network (EWTN), Elias Mary of the Our Lady of Guadalupe Sanctuary in Wisconsin, and Michael O’Neill and Christopher Padgett of the Mariological Society of America, recently released a 10-page document outlining why Mary is deserving of the title.

It states that Mary passed on her sinless nature—given to her by God at conception—to Jesus, that He might redeem the world from sin. Through her willing human participation in the Father’s divine means of saving wicked men, the Commission contends, she is the “New Eve” just as Jesus is the “New Adam.”

“Mary, the ‘full of grace’ (Lk. 1:28) was providentially prepared by the Father through her Immaculate Conception to participate with the Son in the crushing of the head of Satan and redeeming humanity from sin, and to pass on to her divine Son an immaculate human nature like her own in order to accomplish the mission of redemption,” the document asserts.

“Within the rich tradition of the Church the patristic concept of Mary as the ‘New Eve’ who uniquely worked with Jesus, the ‘New Adam,’ to restore the life of grace to the human family contains within itself the doctrine of Mary’s unique participation with Jesus in the redemption,” it states. “Declared ‘Mother of the Church’ by Pope Bl. Paul VI, Mary ‘cooperated in initiating God’s kingdom’ and thus manifested her motherly co-redemption for the Church.”

The Commission clarifies, however, that the title of co-redemptrix does not set Mary as equal with Christ, as it believes such a concept would be heresy.

“The philosophical and theological meaning of ‘participation’ includes the understanding of an inferior being ‘taking part in’ (partem capere) the perfections or qualities of a superior being,” it outlines. “Thus, Mary’s participation in the redemption of Christ in no way diminishes His perfect divine redemption, but rather in a human feminine and maternal expression, partakes in its divine power and efficacy.”

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The Marian Association therefore requests that “Pope Francis would kindly grant public recognition and honor to the role of the Blessed Virgin Mary as ‘co-redemptrix with Jesus the redeemer'” during the Fatima observance in May. It says that the recognition would provide a means for humanity to consider how God used men as a vessel as He carried out His purposes in the plan of salvation.

“We believe that a public acknowledgement of Mary’s true and continuous role with Jesus in the saving work of redemption would justly celebrate the role of humanity in God’s saving plan; foster greater devotion to the mother of God; and lead to the release of historic graces through an even more powerful exercise of our lady’s maternal roles of intercession for the Church and for all humanity today,” it writes.

Gendron

While the Association says that title would point the eyes of the people to the cross of Christ, some beg to differ. Mike Gendron of Proclaiming the Gospel Ministries in Plano, Texas told Christian News Network that the Roman Catholic religion often attributes many of Christ’s characteristics to Mary.

“They teach that both were conceived without sin and lived sinless lives, and both are our advocates. They proclaim that Jesus is the source of grace, Mary is the channel of all grace; Jesus is the Mediator, Mary is the Mediatrix; Jesus ascended into glory, Mary’s body was assumed into glory; Jesus is the King of Heaven, Mary is the Queen of Heaven; Jesus is the Prince of peace, and Mary is the Queen of peace,” he explained.

Gendron said that these doctrines are unbiblical. Further considering Mary now as co-redemptrix, he opined, rather takes God’s rightful glory and gives part of it to man.

“Nowhere in Scripture is Mary referred to as co-redeemer or co-mediatrix,” he declared. “It was the Lord Jesus, not Mary, who gave His life as a ransom for many (Mark 10:45). It was Jesus, not Mary, who redeemed those who were once slaves to sin and purchased their freedom so that they are no longer in bondage to sin. Jesus gave Himself to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own (Titus 2:14).”

“For anyone to refer to Mary as co-redemptrix not only violates the truth of God’s Word, it also dishonors the Lord Jesus Christ and robs Him of the glory, honor and praise that He alone deserves,” Gendron stated.

Pope John Paul II referred to Mary as co-redemptrix on several occasions, but some worried that it would impede the ecumenical unity that Catholics were seeking with Christians.

“There is great spiritual danger for Catholics when they look to Mary and not Jesus,” Gendron said. “Paul warned, ‘But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ (2 Corinthians 11:3).’ I pray that Catholics will heed the exhortation from the book of Hebrews: ‘Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God (Hebrews 12:2).'”


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  • Amos Moses

    /SMH …………….

  • RWH

    There are groups within the Catholic Church that have been pushing this for years. To accept this will drive a deeper wedge between the Catholics and the Orthodox. What I can’t understand is that this site doesn’t give the Pope the respect that he is due. Many may not agree with him, but at least refer to him by his proper title. Even the Apostle Peter apologized when people pointed out that he disrespected the High Priest.

    • Charles

      “What I can’t understand is that this site doesn’t give the Pope the respect that he is due”

      Exactly what respect does he deserve? Respect as an apostate? Changing doctrine as the wind blows? The proper title for him is “Antichrist”…

      • RWH

        Well, if you desire the help of Catholics for some of your cherished causes, you might get their help by not offending them. It’s the conservative Catholics who deeply respect the Pope and what he stands for who will join you. But if you can believe that you can offend people, don’t expect a lot of cooperation.

        • Charles

          Right because the Lord Jesus Christ made sure not to offend. Especially, “Religious” leaders.

          (Mat 23:29) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
          (Mat 23:30) And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
          (Mat 23:31) Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
          (Mat 23:32) Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
          (Mat 23:33) Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

          • RWH

            Well, I suppose that you area of uniting people to fight for a just cause is by being obnoxious and offensive, I wish you luck. A few years ago, a group of demonstrators were picketing an event. Someone from the other side clued the Catholic pickets in to the fact that the leadership believed that Catholics worship idols, that they were bound for hell and that the Pope was the antichrist. The Catholics walked off and just a handful of people remained. Common sense says that you don’t offend people, but you just stick to your guns and see where that gets you.

          • Charles

            They do worship idols. They are bound for hell if they follow their leader.

          • RWH

            Have you ever talked with a Catholic? No Catholic would agree with you, but they would immediately pick up on the fact that you hate them and their church. Years ago, my stepmother heard parts of a sermon preached by one of those rabid types. Even though she was neutral on religion and was not affiliated with any particular church and attended only on “special occasions,” she immediately came out with the assessment “What is wrong with this person that he hates Catholics so much?” So much for an effective witness. He did nothing more than turn people off (although the ones who agreed with him would love his message).

          • Charles

            “Have you ever talked with a Catholic? No Catholic would agree with you”

            I’ve conversed with many Catholics actually. Most of them didn’t agree with what the Bible teaches. They would have to admit that their faith is misguided if they did. They have their own made up doctrine. Most simply parrot what they’ve been told by their local “Priest”. I don’t hate people. I do hate the religion of Catholicism. I don’t hate the people. They are misguided. Simple as that.

          • RWH

            And a lot of fundamentalist Protestants also parrot what their preachers tell them. It is the Church that hammed out the doctrines of the Trinity and the nature of the Godhead, doctrines which Protestant fundamentalists also adhere to but don’t like to admit. Religion is a very personal and intimate matter. You hate what a person identifies and stands for, you hate the person. That’s why people prefer to die as a martyr rather than change. That Church has survived the onslaughts of Communism, and it will survive a handful of rabid, loudmouth fundamentalists. And don’t equate what the Bible teaches with what your interpretation is of what the Bible teaches. There’s Scriptural support for infant baptism as well as believer’s baptism as well as ideas concerning the real presence of Christ in communion. Concerning good works, the Apostle James is often at odds with the Apostle Paul. Fundamentalist just prefer Paul over James.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            ” It is the Church that hammed out the doctrines of the Trinity and the nature of the Godhead”

            I’m sure God appreciates knowing that. Thank goodness we got the RCC to teach God what God is!

            “Religion is a very personal and intimate matter.”

            Not according to God. There’s no such thing as “that’s personal” when one realizes they are just one member of many parts of a Body.

            “You hate what a person identifies and stands for, you hate the person.”

            So you’re saying that God hates all people? That’s interesting. Where is that in the Catholic doctrines? Must’ve missed that one. It’s also contrary to what the Pope’s been preaching lately.

            “hat’s why people prefer to die as a martyr rather than change”

            I’m sure the Apostles and all those souls under the seat in Rev. 6:9-10 appreciate knowing that.

            “Concerning good works, the Apostle James is often at odds with the Apostle Paul. Fundamentalist just prefer Paul over James.”

            I’m sure the Holy Spirit appreciates knowing that you’ve called Him a Liar or that He contradicts Himself.

            Thank you for putting your Biblical epistemology on display for all to see. it’s always appreciate when folks put on such a great display, such as you just did, on why they should NOT be listened to for even one second.

          • RWH

            Royce, If you knew one iota about Church history, you would realize that Rome was a Johnny Come Lately in church history. The Church councils–the ones that fought against the heresies of Gnosticism and Arianism, plus established the cannon of the Bible and the doctrines concerning the Trinity and the Godhead–took place in Constantinople or in it surrounding environs. Rome didn’t get into the picture until around 700-800 AD. A lot of the doctrines concerning Mary and purgatory came from Rome, not from Constantinople. To speak of the Church as Roman Catholic before the big church split in 1054 is in error. The councils hammered out doctrines which Protestants have not altered.

            You make fun of those who died because they would not renounce Christ? When the millions of people in Russia died because they were believers in Christ as the Bolsheviks swept through the land, pulling down the cross of Jesus Christ, you probably would have been hiding under your bed. People who belittle the martyrdom of believers who may have differed from them are absolutely disgusting and repulsive. Do you realize that people who attended church in the 1920s and 30s often disappeared, never to be seen again? Big mouths like you often like to talk the talk, but they’re too afraid to walk the walk. Just like a little dog who will bark ferociously from under a couch.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Uh, I happen to know quite a bit about Church History. So where’s that leave you with your faux omniscience?

            Perhaps you took my sarcastic “thank goodness…” comment literally.

            And no, I don’t make fun of the martyrs. None whatsoever. Not one inkling of that. To the contrary I was showing the ridiculousness of your characterization of them with your “that’s why”.

            “Big mouths like you often like to talk the talk, but they’re too afraid to walk the walk. Just like a little dog who will bark ferociously from under a couch.”

            Thanks for showing your heart. Much appreciated. Just as you did before. Always appreciate when the Posers reveal themselves. As for your characterization of me, well, I don’t hide behind some initials. My name is right there for you to see just as easy as anyone else. I’m the only one is all History as far as I know and am VERY easy to find. So why don’t you show up on my doorstep and say that to my face.

            Then we can find out just who is the “little dog who will bark ferociously from under a couch” and who “would hide under a bed”. Or is it easier just to hide behind a keyboard and bloviate.

          • RWH

            Royce. Well, isn’t that special that you prefer to use your whole name. Hopefully, nobody will ever try to stalk you. In today’s internet world, there is a danger that someone will open accounts in your name or will try to assume your identity. If you desire to make your self vulnerable to identity theft, good for you. This is exactly why a number of people on this list and on others use monikers. Secondly, you have done nothing on this list that shows to me that you are a person who can be trusted so it makes perfect sense for me to use initials.

            With that said, I don’t believe that anything that you said was sarcastic. If you knew what you claim you know about church history, you would have realized that the Roman Catholic Church did not exist in its present form until after the church split of 1054. Before that, Rome was another see within the church universal. It was considered the first among equals between Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria. Rome claimed the Donation of Constantine, and the other four patriarchs rejected. But I’m sure that you are aware that while the Pope was titled as Your Holiness, the Patriarch of Constantinople was titled Your All Holiness, or the Patriarch of Alexandria was also a Pope.

            The fact that you assumed that I was Roman Catholic and made fun of people who died that they wouldn’t renounce Christ says it all.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Thanks for proving my point. I guess we know now who’s “hiding” and the “little dog who will bark ferociously under the couch”.

            As for all the rest of your blather, I’ll put my faith in God. And frankly, after your comments on just this thread, I could not care less what you think or believe.

          • RWH

            For someone who doesn’t care what I think or believe, you have spent quite a bit of energy bearing false witness. And congratulations on using your full “unique” name. I sincerely hope that you aren’t the victim of identity theft. Since you’re so forward with this, I’m surprised that you don’t include your birth-date and Social Security number to make things more convenient for people who survey these lists such as this one in search for victims.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            How specifically have I borne false witness against you? If you don’t show that, then it is you who’ve just made a false accusation and borne false witness.

            As for the rest, just empty rhetoric and I imagine an attempt at throwing a fiery dart. Didn’t work. Like I said, my faith is in God.

          • RWH

            If you read carefully through what you said with an unbiased mind, I think that you should see what I am talking about. I am more worried that you are exposing yourself to identity theft.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            If you read carefully through exactly what I said with your eyes open, I think that you’ll see you just showed everyone who made the false accusation and bore false witness.

            Thank you!

          • PilgrimGirl

            “There’s Scriptural support for infant baptism”? Where?

          • RWH

            The man believed, but the disciple baptized the entire family. The disciple didn’t wait until all the members reached a certain age or a certain criteria. However, there is no verse that states that baptism is for adults only. We’re talking about the time when all people were unbelievers and that there was no church formed. However, the earliest Christian writings show that both forms of baptism were employed. By the way, St. Ignatius of Antioch established the office of bishop as it is known today at a time when most of the disciples were still alive. There is no evidence that any of the disciples disputed his writings.

          • PilgrimGirl

            You said, “there’s Scriptural support for infant baptism”. Please show me in Scripture, the Word of God, where infants are to be baptized. I’m looking for chapter and verse.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Acts 16:33. It says entire families were baptized.

          • kenster777

            You must believe before you are saved Acts 16:31

            Baptism is a sign of a Good conscience I Peter 3:21
            A baby is not capable of confessing or believing yet.
            Roman’s 10:9-11 tells of some of the requirements for Salvation.
            If you teach a child he was saved through baptism and not faith you are not speaking the truth according to scripture.

            You can believe the Lord for his salvation but he still needs to confess, then believe.
            Jesus rebuked the Religious leaders of his days for teaching Traditions, instead of the things that are important to God Mark 7:7.
            Also read Acts 8:35-39 Where Philip preached unto him Jesus and he baptized him by immersing in the water.
            Acts 4:11-12 there is No other Name you can be saved only Jesus,
            which the New Testament teaches none other.
            Ephesians 4:4-6 One Lord, One Faith and one Baptism.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            You are misunderstanding the point of baptism. Of course a baby is not capable of confessing or believing, but it’s about original sin, which all people are born with. Which is the reason the MAJORITY of Christians baptize infants.

          • PilgrimGirl

            I asked you about this on another thread some time ago but you must have missed it because you never answered. I’ll ask again: What do you mean by the point (intention) of baptism being about original sin?

          • Jenny Ondioline

            I remember you asked, and I also remember that I answered. What you’re missing is that if you don’t baptize infants you are in the MINORITY, because your understanding of the reason for baptism is different. The majority of Christians baptize infants to deal with the stain of original sin which all are born with. Remember, Eve eating the apple, all that stuff? It’s got nothing to do with ACTUAL sin, and if it did, why were “entire families” baptized?

          • PilgrimGirl

            I’m sorry, I must have missed your answer before.

            What do you mean by original sin? How does baptism deal with it?

          • PilgrimGirl

            While I was waiting, I went to the Vatican’s site and looked at the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It says, “Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: “Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word.””

            It also says, “This sacrament is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one “can enter the kingdom of God””.

            Jenny, that contradicts what the LORD says in His word.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            No, I think you’ll find that’s very much in line with scripture. If it wasn’t, babies wouldn’t be baptized by Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Methodists and many others.

          • PilgrimGirl

            You’re right about one thing – original sin – we are all born spiritually dead because of Adam’s sin. Born of the flesh have physical life but are dead spiritually, separated from God. We need spiritual life but only God can give life. Our Lord Jesus Christ said, “For as the Father raises up the dead, and quickens [gives life]; even so the Son quickens whom he will.” (John 5:21) He gives life to whom HE will.
            Salvation isn’t by man’s will, it’s by God’s will. And His will is sovereign. Can he not do with his own what He will?

          • Lyle

            Babies are baptized in most churches to make the parents feel better about life prospects, also, the churches require that you have God Parents. These God Parents should be chosen because of their faith in the Bible and Jesus Christ, they will help bring the child up in the faith. Sadly this is not the case, most God Parents are chosen for their lineage or closeness to the family, not for their faith. I find this to be a travesty. The church is partially responsible for this in that they rarely vet the God Parents (I know the Catholic church attempts to but pressure from the parents usually wins out). It is also a problem with the parents and peer pressure to select close family members instead of for the welfare of the child.

          • PilgrimGirl

            Paul and Silas, after being beaten, cast into the inner prison, and having the jailer charged with keeping them, “at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them. And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one’s bands were loosed. And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, and brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. And
            he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.” (Acts 16:25-34)

            The word of the Lord was preached to this jailer and to all that were in his house…and they believed and were baptized.

            Based on this passage, you are trying to tell me that an infant can hear the word of the Lord and believe and thus be baptized?

          • PilgrimGirl

            The system, for whatever reason, won’t let me post my comment. I’ve tried 3 times.

            I had tried to post Acts 16:25-34 in its entirety.

            The word of the Lord was preached to this jailer and to all that were in his house…and they believed and were baptized.

            Based on this passage, you are trying to tell me that an infant can hear the word of the Lord and believe and thus be baptized?

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Are you a Jehovah’s Witness? Their Bible omits the line about “households” or “families” as well. The verse reads this way: ” At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized.”

          • PilgrimGirl

            No, I’m not a Jehovah’s Witness.

          • Mike Feehan

            Infant baptism is NOT scriptural…Quit trying to manipulate the BIBLE to suit your false teachings…You do the same thing in so many areas…I CAN AND WILL go straight to Jesus as the BIBLE clearly states to do in so many areas, 1 John 1, verse 9, Isiah 43:25, Luke 5:21, Mark 2:5, and there are more verses as well…Yes, this Church has its own set of rules and contradicts clear as day teaching from the Word of God, what else is new?
            These priests are all sinners, a fair amount of them homosexuals….WHY would I go to another sinner priest to confess my sins when I CAN AND WILL go straight to a sinless Jesus? Heck, the priesthood was done away with as JESUS is my great high priest…I don’t need some flaming homosexual to confess my sins to…1 Timothy 2:5 states that there is ONE MEDIATOR between God and man, JESUS, NOT SOME PRIEST AND NOT MARY…
            Again, quit manipulating Scripture to fit your false man made traditions of men….

          • Jenny Ondioline

            It says entire families were baptized.

          • Mike Feehan

            Again, quit going by what false teachers say and start reading the BIBLE in its entirety…ANYONE can pick out a verse, as your church seems to do, and make it mean something….
            Please explain to me how a one month or a two month old can believe and repent?? Again, drop all of the manipulation garbage, give me a straight and direct answer..
            What does the Bible say about infant baptism / paedobaptism?”

            Answer: There is much confusion about baptism in the various Christian denominations. However, this is not a result of the Bible presenting a confusing message on baptism. ******The Bible is abundantly clear of what baptism is, who it is for, and what it accomplishes.***** In the Bible, only believers who had placed their faith in Christ were baptized – as a public testimony of their faith and identification with Him (Acts 2:38; Romans 6:3-4). Water baptism by immersion is a step of obedience after faith in Christ. It is a proclamation of faith in Christ, a statement of submission to Him, and an identification with His death, burial, and resurrection.

            With this in view, ********infant baptism is not a Biblical practice. *******An infant cannot place his or her faith in Christ. *******An infant cannot make a conscious decision to obey Christ. An infant cannot understand what water baptism symbolizes. ******The Bible does not record any infants being baptized. Infant baptism is the origin of the sprinkling and pouring methods of baptism – as it is unwise and unsafe to immerse an infant under water. Even the method of infant baptism fails to agree with the Bible. How does pouring or sprinkling illustrate the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

            Many Christians who practice infant baptism do so because they understand infant baptism as the new covenant equivalent of circumcision. In this view, just as circumcision joined a Hebrew to the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants, so baptism joined a person to the New Covenant of salvation through Jesus Christ. This view is unbiblical. The New Testament nowhere describes baptism as the New Covenant replacement for Old Covenant circumcision. The New Testament nowhere describes baptism as a sign of the New Covenant. It is faith in Jesus Christ that enables a person to enjoy the blessings of the New Covenant (1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6; Hebrews 9:15).

            Baptism does not save a person. It does not matter if you were baptized by immersion, pouring, or sprinkling – if you have not first trusted in Christ for salvation, baptism (no matter the method) is meaningless and useless. Water baptism by immersion is a step of obedience to be done after salvation as a public profession of faith in Christ and identification with Him. Infant baptism does not fit the Biblical definition of baptism or the Biblical method of baptism. If Christian parents wish to dedicate their child to Christ, then a baby dedication service is entirely appropriate. However, even if infants are dedicated to the Lord, when they grow up they will still have to make a personal decision to believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            It is not about repentance. It is about the stain of original sin which all are born with. You have a different understanding about the meaning of baptism.

          • Mike Feehan

            Well, it is about FAITH and HOW can a one or two month old trust Christ?? Face facts here..
            You are manipulating Scripture, what else is new, that’s what this church does, to suit your man made traditions and I am going by what the BIBLE says, you know, that book which your church does not have in the pews because they are afraid that I and TONS of other folks that I know will actually start to read it and see all of the contradictions, yes, that one..
            And in addition to that, your church falsely teaches that one is a “child of God”, “born again”, by being sprinkled with water as a one month old when they have no clue what the heck is going on…I mean, NOT EVEN CLOSE to being scriptural, not even close…..

            ****Speaking of man made traditions, totally made up by men, NOTHING to do with Scripture, take a look at these:

            Presbyters first called priests by Lucian……2nd century..

            2… Sacerdotal mass instituted by Cyprian..3rd century

            3… Prayers for the dead—-A.D. 300

            4….Making the sign of the cross—A.D. 300

            5… Wax candles—-A.D. 320

            6….Veneration of angels, dead saints, and images…A.D. 375

            7…Mass became a daily ritual—A.D. 394

            8…Beginning of exaltation of Mary, term “Mother of God” first applied to her by Council of Ephesus….A.D. 431

            9….Priests began to wear special clothing—A.D. 500

            10..Extreme Unction (Rite of Healing)….A.D. 526

            11….The doctrine of purgatory….A.D. 593

            12… Latin used in worship….A.D. 600

            13..Prayers offered to Mary, dead saints and angels…A.D. 600

            14…First man to be proclaimed Pope…(Boniface III) A.D. 610

            15…Kissing the Pope’s feet…..A.D. 709

            16….Temporal power of Popes, conferred by Pepin, King of the Franks…..A.D. 750

            17..Veneration of cross, images, relics authorized…A.D. 786

            18…Holy Water, mixed with pinch of salt, chrism, and blessed by a priest…A.D. 850

            19….Venerations of St. Joseph—A.D. 890

            20…College of Cardinals begun—A.D. 927

            21…Baptism of bells instituted by Pope John X111…A.D. 965

            22…Canonization of dead saints by Pope John XV….A.D. 995

            23…Fasting on Fridays and Lent….A.D. 998

            24….The Mass developed gradually as a sacrifice, attendance made obligatory…A.D. 11TH century…

            25…Celibacy of priests declared….A.D. 1079

            26…Rosary adopted (pagan) by Peter the Hermit….A.D. 1090

            27…The Inquisition instituted by Council of Verona….A.D. 1184

            28….Sale of indulgences….A.D 1190..

            29….Seven Sacraments, defined by Peter Lombard….12th century

            30….Transubstantiation, defined by Innocent III…A.D. 1215..

            31…Auricular confession (Rite of Reconciliation of sins to a priest instead of God, instituted by Innocent III A.D. 1215

            32….Adoration of the wafer (called the Host) decreed by Pope Honorius III….A.D. 1220

            33…Scapular invented by Simon Stock of England…A.D. 1251

            34…The cup forbidden to the laity at communion by the Council of Florence…..A.D. 1439

            35…Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma by the Council of Florence in A.D 1439

            36…***Traditions declared of EQUAL AUTHORITY with the BIBLE by the Council Of Trent…A.D. 1545

            37…Apocryphial books added to the Bible by the Council of Trent….A.D. 1546

            38…Creed of Pope Pius IV imposed as the official creed in place of the original Apostolic Creed….A.D. 1560

            39….Immaculate Conception of Mary (not virgin birth) proclaimed by Pope Pius IX…A.D. 1854

            40….Syllabus of Errors proclaimed by Pope Pius IX, and ratified by the Vatican Council; condemned freedom of religion, conscience, speech, press, and scientific discoveries which are disapproved by the Roman Church; asserted the Pope’s temporal authority over all civil rulers….A.D. 1864..

            41….Infallibility of the Pope in matters of faith and morals claimed by the Vatican Council….A.D. 1870…

            42…Assumption of Mary proclaimed by Pope Pius XII….A.D. 1950…..

          • Jenny Ondioline

            It is not manipulating scripture, it’s a matter of you not understanding it. You misunderstand the reason for why the majority of Christians baptize infants.

          • Mike Feehan

            Well, your church teaches that one is a “child of God”, “born again” by being sprinkled with water as a one month old…What a crock of anti-biblical garbage that is…By the way, when the Bible says that Mary is a sinner in several verses and your church teaches that she was sinless, because some MAN decided so, am I also misinterpreting Scripture then as well?? No, infant baptism is not scriptural, bottom line….HOW can a baby believe and repent, can you answer me that one???

          • Jenny Ondioline

            You seem to really like imagining that things are in the Bible that aren’t, such as Mary being a sinner and infant baptism being forbidden. What is the name of the cult you belong to? I would like to look them up.

          • Mike Feehan

            Imagining things that are in the BIBLE such as the fact that Mary IS a sinner, regardless of what some Pope has said..

            Romans 3:23—ALL have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God….ALL, ALL includes everyone, including Mary..

            Romans 5:8–Romans 5:8New International Version (NIV)

            8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us

            ***That verse makes NO MENTION of Mary being an exception, does it???

            Romans 5:12-12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because ******all sinned—

            ***This verse says that ALL have sinned…NO mention of Mary being an exception…

            Luke 1L47–Luke 1:47New International Version (NIV)

            47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
            ***WHY would Mary need a SAVIOR if she was sinless???
            No, I go to a BIBLE BASED church where the authority is GOD’S WORD and GOD’S WORD alone…You attend a church based off a bunch of anti-biblical man made traditions…Speaking of BIBLES, WHY no BIBLES in the pews, can you answer me that one???
            No, you belong to the CULT, not me….Go and confess your sins to one of your many flaming homosexual priests, JESUS is good enough for me…
            1 Timothy 2:5—There is ONE MEDIATOR between God and man, JESUS….Notice how that verse makes no mention of any homosexual priest or Mary…
            Answer the question for once…HOW can a one or two month old believe and repent????
            Now, scoot, get along, go and confess your sins to another sinner, quite possibly a homosexual…JESUS is good enough for me…

          • Jenny Ondioline

            You are lying. How could Jesus who was without sin have been born from anyone who was sinful? Why do you think Mary was chosen?

          • Mike Feehan

            No, it’s not about lying…GET to a BIBLE STUDY, you NEED ONE QUITE, QUITE BADLY…I follow God’s Word, you and your type follow a bunch of man made traditions and all of these men are sinners, quite possibly homosexuals…
            And Don’t you DARE call me a liar when I follow GOD’S WORD and you follow a bunch of man made rules…
            Again, GET TO A BIBLE STUDY, YOU NEED ONE QUITE BADLY..

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Why do you keep mentioning homosexuals? Something you want to get off your chest?

          • Mike Feehan

            No, do you ever watch the news?? Go and see the movie Spotlight and you will see a perfect example of the homosexual priests in your church and how your leadership continued to transfer these jokes…….
            The fact that you even have priests in your church is unscriptural, WHAT ELSE IS NEW?? I can and will go straight to Jesus, I don’t need some priest….
            Again, watch the news…Chicago, LA, Boston, Milwaukee, and that is what I know of, all had cases in which your priests couldn’t keep their hands off of little boys…
            Confessing your sins to another sinner, a fair percentage of them homosexuals??? Not even close to being Scriptural, NOT EVEN CLOSE…

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Homosexuals are not the issue, it is pedophiles. Or do you not know the difference?

            And if you think just the Catholic church has abusers, you couldn’t be more wrong.

          • Mike Feehan

            Just like I am wrong about Mary being a sinner, RIGHT?? Or the FACT that I do not need to go to Mary or some priest, that JESUS is my intermediator, 1 Timothy 2:5…Congrats..You have both pedophiles and homosexuals in your church as there is a gay lobby in the Vatican…
            Now go and pray to Mary and get to a church as I have done with BIBLES in the pews…

          • Laurence Charles Ringo

            Wow,”RWH”…For someone who just claimed that…”I’ve never been a Roman Catholic”…,you certainly sound like one!! 😐.What am I missing here? I await your reply…

          • RWH

            I’m sure that you are missing a lot of things. The Roman Catholic Church isn’t the only game in town. The Orthodox, the Anglicans, the Lutherans, the Old Catholics, and many others share much of the same understanding concerning baptism and communion. All honor Mary, but none accept the excesses of Catholic belief concerning her. All reject Papal pretensions, but all accept that Peter was the first bishop of Rome (although he was bishop of Antioch before he went to Rome).

            However, I don’t think that your aim in my response is for clarification. Rather, I believe that you wish to pick a fight. As such, I believe that your mind is made up and trying to reason with you is like, as the Lord said, “throwing pearls at the feet of swine.”

          • Off Shore

            “No Catholic would agree with you, but they would immediately pick up on the fact that you hate them”

            Funny that you rcc’s always say that, but you know that is exactly what the homosexuals says when their deviant behavior is called out. IAW the Bible if I see sin I call it just that and it’s not hate, but love. Hate would be not speaking the truth of scripture and letting you think that your cult is scriptural. I’ll quit hating on you and let you get back to that building you call a church so you can kneel to your graven image and recite that demon induced rosary.

            “That Church has survived the onslaughts of Communism, and it will survive a handful of rabid, loudmouth fundamentalists.”

            Your right the rcc will continue to survive all the way into the tribulation at which time it will be thrown onto a bed of suffering. The Book of Revelation call your religion the Church of Thyatira.
            Rev 2:18-29

            Know this that when you stand at the Great White Throne judgement you will have absolutely no excuse. You have have rejected the truth of Jesus Christ and have accepted tradition instead.

          • RWH

            Off Shore. Do you have a serious reading problem? Why are you inserting homosexuality in a topic that has nothing to do with it? Can’t you stick to the subject. I have never been a Roman Catholic, but my family knows what life was like under the Communist Revolution of Russia, having fled the country in the 1920s. And what do you know other than to demean others and hurl insults and curses?

            Typical fundy behavior. Never debate the merits of an issue if one can go for a vicious personal attack. I know the type. Instead of fixing up their own house, they prefer to throw rocks at those of their neighbors.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            “Typical fundy behavior.

            And you don’t even realize what a compliment that is, do you? Ya can’t get anymore “fundamental” than Jesus Christ!

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            “He did nothing more than turn people off”

            Typical Catholic. Biblically ignorant. Ya can’t turn off that which has never been turned on.

          • Lyle

            Most Catholics have no clue as to what the bible says. They go to church on Saturday or Sunday, rush out of church right after communion and go about their merry way. I was raised Lutheran (Missouri Synod), wife is a Catholic because her parents were, one of my two children was raised Catholic and is not an agnostic, the other never was confirmed in any faith, but he has more faith than the first. There are members of all churches that are hypocrites, but that is not for me to say. God is the only one who knows a man’s heart. It is not for us to judge. I agree the Catholic Church is not for me, and there are many reasons stated in this thread that I agree with. It is our job as Christians to keep our church in line with Biblical Teachings, not the other way around. If you see something wrong in your church, bring it up, if nothing is done, find another church that follows the teachings of Jesus the Christ. God loves all of us, but he also stated there are rules that we need to follow.

          • Chris

            “Most Catholics have no clue as to what the bible says”

            To be fair, according to Pew research most Christians have no idea what the bible says. They never read the thing. When asked a series of questions concerning the bible Christians, on average, scored lower than atheists.

        • Amos Moses

          “It’s the conservative Catholics who deeply respect the Pope and what he stands for who will join you.”

          you must be talking about some other “conservative catholics” …… most that i am aware of are very disturbed by this pope ………

          • RWH

            They may be disturbed by this particular man, but they still respect the position. Conservative anything does not like someone who rocks the boat. This pope differs from the others in that he mingled with the people while in Argentina. He even took the bus as Cardinal and drove his own car. He did not squirrel himself away in a palatial environment and had people wait on him. He hasn’t changed any doctrines, but he takes a rather pragmatic view on things. A lot of people felt the same about Pope John XXIII, who presided over Vatican II, which changed a lot of stuff. A lot of traditionalist Catholics were upset that the language of the Mass was changed from Latin to the vernacular and that congregational singing was introduced.

          • Amos Moses

            “He hasn’t changed any doctrines, but he takes a rather pragmatic view on things.”

            pragmatism is not christian and it is not even catholic ……….

          • RWH

            Do you even understand what is meant by pragmatism?

          • Amos Moses

            do you ……… pragmatism is not part of christianity …….

          • RWH

            Are you trying to say that pragmatism, or common sense is not part of Christianity? That is nice to know. When I started teaching at a Christian college back in the early 1970s, men were not allowed to have facial hair, we couldn’t wear wire-rimmed glasses, we couldn’t wear “bell-bottom” or flaired pants, we couldn’t part our hair down the middle, and so on because those looks were considered part of the rebellious hippy culture. I look at pictures of the same school now, and nobody cares. Things evolve. Pope Francis has advocated relaxing the restrictions against divorce. It used to be that Catholics who were divorced were excommunicated. He is now saying that these people can be reconciled with the Church. One of the biggest criticisms people had (and still have) against the Church is that it tends to kick problem people out instead of helping them. Years ago, a girl got pregnant at the school where I worked. The school expelled her (and probably rightly so), but instead of helping the girl out, the church disciplined her out. As a result, both she and her entire family left the church and either dropped out of church altogether or went someplace else where she could get the support. And how did that help her?

          • Amos Moses

            pragmatism is not common sense ….. and you just demonstrated that you do not know what either term …. christianity or pragmatism …. is and is not ………

            an American movement in philosophy founded by C. S. Peirce and William James and marked by the doctrines that the meaning of conceptions is to be sought in their practical bearings, that the function of thought is to guide action, and that truth is preeminently to be tested by the practical consequences of belief

            Christ is truth …….. and if you do not get that ….. then i am sorry for anyone you “taught” at a christian college …………….

          • RWH

            Well, Amos, it should have been plainly obvious to you that I did not have CS Peirce and William James in mind nor their philosophies. I was using the plain old dictionary. You should have realized that I was very clear in that I was using the term pragmatic as meaning common sense, which is the standard meaning of the term. If you want to play word games with me, I’m sure that I can find a hundred ways to trip you up as well. However, I desired to behave like a Christian. I would want to assume that you would do the same, but apparently, you’re just interested in scoring points rather than understanding what I intended to say.

          • Amos Moses

            unlike you ….. i do not read minds ….. i read what you wrote …… and i know what “pragmatism” means ….. i do not know what you think it means ….. and now all you want to do is “score points” with ad hominem attack ……… either say what you mean or you will never mean what you say ……

          • RWH

            Amos. I’m not going to get into a tit for tat discussion with you. I was very clear that I equated pragmatism with common sense as used in any dictionary that you wish to consult. I know that a philosophy like this exists from my school days many years ago, but that is it. I am not a philosopher. There was nothing in my response that even hinted at this arcane philosophy which you not only decided to not only dredge up, but to also to use it as a straw-man argument to make it appear as though I am some sort of evil person. The expanded definition that I provided made it abundantly clear that I was using the dictionary definition rather than a philosophical one–expounded in books that I have never read. Then after attempting to ruin my reputation, you turn around and sanctimoniously act like you’re the injured party. Now, if you don’t like what have said, contradict it with a clear, reasoned answer, not a pathetic attempt at pigeonholing someone into a believe that completely misses the mark.

          • Amos Moses

            “Pragmatism” defined –

            a practical approach to problems and affairs

            Pragmatism is a philosophical movement that includes those who claim that an ideology or proposition is true if it works satisfactorily, that the meaning of a proposition is to be found in the practical consequences of accepting it, and that unpractical ideas are to be rejected.

            1.
            character or conduct that emphasizes practicality.
            2.
            a philosophical movement or system having various forms, but generally stressing practical consequences as constituting the essential criterion in determining meaning, truth, or value.

            none of those definitions have even one thing in common with christianity …… period ….. you can run away if you want ….. pragmatism is the philosophy of compromise ….. christianity is not compromising the truth …… compromise is not the truth of anything …… you have argued that the destruction of a child in an abortion is legal and that type of “pragmatism” is against christianity and the truth ………… NO ….. pragmatism is a lie ….. and if you want to agree with it ….. see ya ….. would not want to be ya …………

          • RWH

            Amos. What is wrong with you? I made it perfectly clear to you that I am unfamiliar with the philosophical movement called pragmatism. If you don’t want to be like me, I take that as a compliment. I’m not interested in taking the ideas of other people and then twisting them into knots in order to make it look like they’re saying something that they are not. If you are so versed in philosophy as you seem to claim, you should know something about logical fallacies and propaganda devices. You don’t set up a straw man as a major premise, a minor premise as a sweeping generalization, and then come to a conclusion that is a blatant lie.

          • Jaime Allred

            The RCC did not excommunicate those divorced, they were refused communion. But like most Catholics, don’t ask don’t tell – The epitome of Cafeteria Catholics.

          • RWH

            Jaime, I could be very wrong, but isn’t the refusal of communion the same as excommunication? I know lots of Catholics that don’t say anything, and most churches are so large, and people can commune with no questions asked. I did so at a funeral earlier in January, and nobody asked me any questions. On the other hand, in Orthodox churches, I have seen priests turn people they don’t know away from communion. In those churches, one really has to ask before the service begins.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            “He did not squirrel himself away in a palatial environment”

            Oh no! Thanks be to God and YouTube, the Pope took to the internet to prove his apostasy by publicly proclaiming that all road leads to God.

          • Jaime Allred

            As a RCC you have to accept this POPE completely. For you believe in succession. You either believe he is a successor of Peter or not. If not, you can not believe in succession. You are not to Pick and Choose in your belief. You have to rectify in the RCC if God made a mistake.

          • RWH

            Jaime, Keep in mind that the claims of the Pope are not universally accepted. Both Orthodoxy, Anglicanism and the Lutherans in the Scandinavian countries claim that the Keys were given to all of the apostles, not just Peter. (Lutherans and Episcopalians in the United States are grappling over this apostolic succession thing.) The 1054 split was precisely over the this whole idea who received the Keys and of papal superiority over the church. When the first seven ecumenical councils took place, the Pope virtually took no part. The Pope has been making gestures toward the Eastern Orthodox Church, and the Orthodox Church is not interested. Constantinople and Rome have always been at odds and there were a lot of tit for tat arguments until the Pope’s legate stormed into Agia Sophia in Constantinople and slapped a bill of excommunication on the altar. When the Pope visited the Ukraine a few years ago, thousands of Orthodox gathered in front of the Kiev Caves Monastery, the site of the Baptism of Russia, to prevent the Pope from defiling the grounds. The Pope had to view the site from a hill outside of Kiev. If the Pope ever makes it into Russia, I’ll be surprised. The Orthodox have referred to the Pope as the antichrist long before Luther nailed his 95 Thesis to the Whittenburg Church door.

          • Jaime Allred

            You are 100% correct. Logically thinking, the Apostles went out throughout the world. They were instructed to Teach about Jesus Christ and how he saved all people. They were not instructed to Teach A Church Doctrine. They did have followers who gathered together and did form groups. The Apostles also weren’t stagnate in their travels, so as we see in Paul, letters were written to and from followers asking questions about those groups. Those groups are what we consider as churches. That is why in Timothy, it is explained about the Overseers. The Bible has all, if we are willing to read.

          • Brad Sexson

            dont blame God for the rcc

          • Jaime Allred

            I never would blame God for the RCC – It is the RCC which is accountable to God. They are about Power, Money and Influence all throughout history.
            The RCC added man made doctrine, and make claims that are false.

        • Royce E. Van Blaricome

          As if “your cherished causes” is what is of preeminent importance. Try Eternity on for size once and you’ll find that any person who leads people to Hell, like the Pope and other Catholics who actually believe their lies, is not only not worth respect but is worthy of being called exactly what God said and the RCC pronounced on all those who believe God’s Word – anathema.

        • kktex12

          I guess him sending people to hell is one of your “cherished causes”. I pity you and him on judgment day. Unless both you and he make some changes, you will have chosen a penalty of unimaginable horror, terror, pain, and cruelty that will make isis look like choir boys.

          • RWH

            What in the world are you talking about? And who are you to pronounce judgment on total strangers? Typical fundy behavior. Don’t debate the issues. Just pronounce hell and judgment as if you’re more loved by God than the rest of us.

    • Shosh 7154

      He is not my Father. In fact he is not a father at all, so his title is not only a lie but blasphemy because there is only ONE WHO WEARS THAT TITLE WHO HAS NO SIN, unlike the pope who was conceived in sin and born in corruption.

      • RWH

        Okay, I get it. You don’t like Catholics, and you have no understanding of what the Church practices. Nobody has ever said that the Pope or any other member of the clergy is without sin. People like to judge others, but I know of a few leading fundamentalist preachers–one being the pastor of the largest Sunday School–who got caught “doing it” with a sixteen-year-old girl from across state lines. And the church was willing to forgive him since this young girl was a seductress to a man triple her age. Fortunately, a deacon went to the cops and pastor is sitting in prison.

        • Shosh 7154

          Nothing personal RWH. Catholicism and Islam are fingers on the same hand. You cannot mix worship. You must choose whom you will worship. Mary or G-d. You cannot worship both.

          • RWH

            Shosh, You may not realize this, but what you claim are fighting words. Orthodoxy has confronted Islam for centuries. In recent history, a number of Christians have died for the faith in Chechnya. If you look carefully at church steeples in Russia, you will see the typical eight point cross planted as a dagger in a crescent. When cathedrals in Russia have been rebuilt, Moslems have gotten upset at the image. One cannot attend an Orthodox church without realizing that Islam is the enemy. I cannot speak for what the Catholic Church does as Catholicism in the Americas is a lot different in its ethos that it is in countries like Poland and West Ukraine, where Catholicism and Orthodoxy have locked horns.

            Concerning Mary, the Catholic Church has gotten into a number of excesses that Orthodoxy has never gotten into. However, one can go into an Orthodox church and pick up tracts and pamphlets preaching against apparitions of Our Lady of Lourdes and Our Lady of Fatima as satanic apparitions because Mary made claims that are clearly unscriptural. The Orthodox revere Mary as the Theotokos, the God-bearer in her pregnancy, and she is looked upon as the example of the way that a true Christian can act. The Orthodox don’t believe that Mary has the power to save. Rather, she is honored by God for the sacrifice that she made. The Orthodox do not believe that Mary was born without sin, but as the Tabernacle of the living God for those nine months, we have a type of purification–similar to the image of the burning bush where God revealed himself to Moses. The fire indwelt the bush but did not consume it. Fire in itself is a purifying agent.

            I’m not a practicing Orthodox Christian. I was raised in the Church, but I have drifted away and have attended Baptist, Presbyterian churches (where I am now an organist and choir director) and Lutheran churches. However, I can attend a Russian church and know exactly what is going on. Having visited churches in Russia, I could not but admire the zeal and faithfulness of people who sacrificed so much to believe in God in the former Communist days. In every case, churches were packed, and not everyone could get in. Clergy opposed the Communists, and they were slaughtered in the thousands.

          • Shosh 7154

            I am a Jew. I see “catholics” standing with arabs in Israel who call themselves “palestinians”, a title the arabs in the region did not claim until only a few years ago. There is no such place called Palestine nor has there ever been…there was a group of people called plishtim who were constantly attacking Jewish communities and eventually became Israel’s worst enemies. I see the pope kissing a quran which states that Isaac was not the son offered for sacrifice by Avraham, but instead Hagar’s son Ishmael. The same quran states that Jesus is just a normal person who is a servant to mohamed and that G-d has no Son. So call it what you may, catholics pray with muslim who are praying to a demon god called allah which in hebrew means curse.

          • RWH

            Shosh. I can’t speak for the Catholic Church nor what the Pope does, but I think that I can comment on a few other things. I have attended liturgies in the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of America that were partially said in Arabic, and I was able to sing in a choir, obviously with the words transliterated into English. Someone explained to me that the word Allah is a generic word for God and is a word used in the Liturgy. It comes from an Arabic rendition of a Hebrew term for God. El Ai? El Shaddai? El something. In Israel, the relationship between the Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem and the Roman Catholics is much more complex. It realizes that the government of Israel is not exactly its friend, but neither are the Moslems. The relationship between Orthodox and Catholics is strained at best, especially when the Franciscans in the Church of the Nativity let the Moslem terrorists into church property, where these folks settled in the Greek part of the Church.

          • Shosh 7154

            When the Law was given to Moshe concerning contacting the dead on behalf of the living, many people were dead. Catholicism teaches that Mary can appeal to G-d on behalf of the living and that she is a co-mediator with the Messiah Who Himself states that Mary is no different than any other believer who does the will of G-d and that HE ALONE is the Mediator between G-d and man. Here are His Words: John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by Me. So Mary, whose body is buried in the ground, cannot intercede as the Torah states there can be no contact with the dead. The Miriam in the history of the Jews would be aghast and utterly appalled at such thoughts much less hearing voices lifted to her as she is standing next to her own L-rd and Saviour

  • kenster777

    There is only one Mediator between God and Man That is Christ Jesus.
    Jn 14:6, I timothy 2:5.
    He is the only one whom we look to.
    It is through the shedding of his blood we have Remissions of sins Eph 1:7, Hebrews 9:14-15.
    To look to any other or to teach to do so comes from a Spirit of False prophesy. II Timothy 3:1-9

    •     

      “One Mediator”. St. Paul uses the term “Heis” in 1 Tim 2:5, wich does not exclude other mediations. To say so, He had to use the term “monos”.

      • Amos Moses

        G1520
        εἷς
        heis
        hice
        (Including the neuter [etc.] ἕν hen); a primary numeral; one: – a (-n, -ny, certain), + abundantly, man, one (another), only, other, some.

        sounds pretty EXclusive to me ………..

    • BuckeyePhysicist

      Do you understand the difference between mediation and intercession?

      • kenster777

        The best description of a Mediator can be found in Hebrews 9:14-22
        And the best Description of a Intercessor is also in Hebrews 6:22-24 Emphasis on verse 24. Which only describes Jesus.
        Moses was also a intercessor for the children of Israel when he would fall on his face before God to spare the children of Israel because of their sins.
        There is no record of Mary being a Mediator or an intercessor for us.
        She was a vessel for the purpose of giving birth to the Son of God.
        She later became a disciple but was never mentioned after Act 1:14.
        She was a witness along the other Apostles.

        • BuckeyePhysicist

          All of us are — or can be — intercessors. Only Jesus Christ can mediate.

  • Chiedu7

    The catholic church is already deep in heresy.

    Did the pope not bring moslems to pray in the vatican?

    Did the pope not say that Christians should apologize to gays for rejecting their life style.

    The catholic church is not of God.

    • Chris

      “The catholic church is already deep in heresy.

      Did the pope not bring Muslims to pray in the Vatican?”

      Heresy is concerned with doctrine NOT actions.

      “Did the pope not say that Christians should apologize to gays for rejecting their life style.”

      He did not. Here’s the quote from the news story “Pope Francis said on Sunday that Christians and the Roman Catholic
      Church should seek forgiveness from homosexuals for the way they had
      treated them.”

  • Jeff

    My mother is catholic and I attended a catholic school for a few years and went through their ceremonies including holy communion. I identified with being catholic until I was about 18 and started reading the bible for myself. In my opinion, the catholic church is the world largest cult. If anyone catholic spends any real time reading the word of God their eyes may be opened Christ willing. Catholicism is a pagan religion dressed as Christian.

    • Chris

      “In my opinion, the catholic church is the world largest cult”

      Not according to the dictionary it isn’t. What do you have against dictionaries anyway?

  • Jeff

    My mother is catholic and I attended a catholic school for a few years
    and went through their ceremonies including holy communion. I
    identified with being catholic until I was about 18 and started reading
    the bible for myself. In my opinion, the catholic church is the world
    largest cult. If anyone catholic spends any real time reading the word
    of God their eyes may be opened Christ willing. Catholicism is a pagan
    religion dressed as Christian.

    • Jenny Ondioline

      I think what happened is someone sold you on. Different interpretation of the Bible, that’s all. The Catholics church is too large, too old, and since it was among the first Christian denominations, cannot in any way qualify as a cult. I was Catholic many years too. And they had Bible studies.

      • Pitangus Sulfuratus

        God says: ‘test the spirits, whether they are of God’ – well, the spirit of Catholicism, of Rome, of Babylon(which is what Catholicism TRULY is)…is counterfeit – of the enemy, no less.

        • Jenny Ondioline

          No, I was raised Catholic. We worshiped Jesus Christ. Learn your history from a history book and not a Jack Chick comic book.

          • Jaime Allred

            Mary was always Highly Regarded. Pray to Mary or any Saint was primary to Praying to Jesus. Most Statues are of Mary holding baby Jesus. You do cross yourself and kneel in front of statues of Mary and pray? Prayers on the rosary are to Mary. The Marian concept is overwhelming in the RCC . To include Immaculate Conception – which means She was Born with no sin, and her Assumption = Her body was raised up to Heaven. The RCC made this up – No Biblical References.
            John Paul II’s 1987 encyclical Redemptoris Mater began with the sentence: “The Mother of the Redeemer has a precise place in the plan of salvation. ** This is Man Made Not Found True Biblical Scriptures.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Except that you don’t actually pray to Mary, you ask Mary to pray for you. The Hail Mary prayer contains the words “pray for us now”. Immaculate Conception need not come from the Bible when Catholics are not “Bible-only” Christians. And a statue is just a reminder or decoration.

          • PilgrimGirl

            “For I testify unto every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:” Revelation 22:18

          • Jenny Ondioline

            And what book do you think that refers to?

          • PilgrimGirl

            “You shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall you diminish from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.” Deuteronomy 4:2

          • Mike Feehan

            Yep, and Proverbs 30:6 says the following:

            Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.

            And 1 Corinthians 4:6 says the following:

            Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying,**** “Do not go beyond what is written.”**** Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.

            I mean, this church adds on man made traditions which Mark 7:13 directly speaks against doing:

            Mark 7:13…Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

            And sorry, for anyone who may try to use 2 Thesallonians 2:15 to justify these man made traditions, sorry, those are the apostles traditions passed down from the ages, NOT traditions which have been “added on” over the years as this church has done….

            O then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

            Jeremiah 17:5–Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who draws strength from mere flesh and whose heart turns away from the LORD.

            Psalm 146:3–Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save.

          • PilgrimGirl

            Amen! Christ is all 🙂

          • Mike Feehan

            Darn right…Not Mary, not some weak Pope, NOONE BUT CHRIST…

          • Jenny Ondioline

            I repeat: And what book do you think that is referring to?

          • PilgrimGirl

            The one given by inspiration of God.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            That is not a book. Are you referring to the Bible?

          • PilgrimGirl

            I’m referring to the Scriptures, all of which concern Christ: who he is, why he came, what he did, and where he is now. At the heart of every false gospel is a denial of the Person and work of Christ.

            CCC #605 states, “The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: “There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer.””

            The very words of Christ Jesus prove that a lie. In John 10: 15 he said, “I lay down my life for my sheep”. Then in verse 26, he told Jews that did not believe him, “you believe not because you are not of my sheep”. They did not believe BECAUSE they were not sheep. Let God be true and every man a liar.

            Christ Jesus did not die to make salvation possible, he died to accomplish salvation for his people. “And she shall bring forth a son, and you shall call his name JESUS: for he SHALL save HIS PEOPLE from their sins.” And he did! Glory to God!!

          • PilgrimGirl

            Seriously, I’ve about had it with this site. I’ve had multiple comments marked as spam when they’ve been within guidelines. Moderator, if you’re reading this comment, please explain to me why my comments are being marked as spam.
            Jenny, I’m referring to the Scriptures all of which concern Christ: who he is, why he came, what he did and where he is now. At the heart of every false gospel is a denial of the Person and work of Christ.
            CCC #605 states, “The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: “There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer.””
            The words of Christ Jesus prove that a lie. In John 10:15 he said, “I lay down my life for the sheep”. In John 10:26 he said, “you believe not because you are not of my sheep”.
            Let God be true and every man a liar.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            The verse refers to Deuteronomy only. It doesn’t refer to the Bible because at the time of the writing it didn’t know it was going to end up as one of the books to comprise the Bible.

          • PilgrimGirl

            When the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            What?

          • PilgrimGirl

            You did not address my previous comment regarding CCC #605 compared to Our Lord’s words in John 10.

          • Joseph Essien-Obot

            You don’t have a conversation by diverting to other things.

          • PilgrimGirl

            Pointing people to the Truth, Christ Jesus, in not “diverting to other things”. He is the One thing needful.

          • Joseph Essien-Obot

            And what makes you think you’re not yourself being pointed the Truth?

          • PilgrimGirl

            Because I know Whom I have believed – Christ Jesus.

          • Joseph Essien-Obot

            And what makes you think Catholics don’t know Jesus Christ whom they believe?

          • PilgrimGirl

            The answer to your question should be clear from my comments throughout this thread.

          • PilgrimGirl

            I repeat: You did not address my previous comment regarding CCC #605 compared to our Lord’s words in John 10.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            I have nothing to say about it. My question to you was about what “book” was being referred to because you seemed to think the book in question was the Bible.

          • PilgrimGirl

            Prove that it isn’t. I’ll wait.

          • Lukes_NaNa

            Jenny, every book of the Bible is written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The first five books of the Old Testament were written by Moses to define the history of the world, the creation of mankind, God’s creation of the Jews as His chosen, and the establishment of God’s law and the covenant with the Jews to send a Messiah. Although the writers of the OT and NT may not have known what they were contributing to, God knew. That’s all that matters.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            They were voted on inclusion by a council.

          • Lukes_NaNa

            You are correct, a council of Jewish Rabbis decided on what would comprise the Talmud, a Christian council determined what letters from the Apostles to include. Everything was chosen based on consistency under direction of the Holy Spirit. By the way, the Apocrypha was not included in the OT.

          • Lukes_NaNa

            PG, I’m not a Catholic but I have to say you seem to be confused about who the sheep are and the purpose of Jesus’ mission. In John 3: 16 &17, Jesus says very clearly that the Father sent Him to save the world, not to condemn it. Therefore He died so that all mankind would have the opportunity to be saved. However, mankind’s free will allows individuals to reject salvation through Jesus. The sheep He refers to are only those who believe Jesus is the Son of God and the only Savior of mankind and all creation. The Father’s desire is that all humans will be saved by faith in Jesus. Unfortunately, that won’t happen.

          • PilgrimGirl

            The purpose of Jesus’ mission? You say he died so that all mankind would have the opportunity to be saved. No, “thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins”. Matthew 1:21

            Stop robbing God of His glory.

          • Lukes_NaNa

            John3:16,17
            For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His into the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. NKJV
            This is JESUS speaking. He glorifies God in everything He says and does.
            You, m’am have issues and not just Biblical ones.

          • PilgrimGirl

            John 3:16 and 2 Peter 3:9 are favorite verses of those who attempt to support universal atonement by ripping them out of context and changing their meaning.

            Nevertheless, our Lord will not give His glory to another. He gets it all and His people love it that way. “Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth’s sake.” Psalm 115:1

          • Lukes_NaNa

            1. I never cited 2 Peter
            2. You are making assumptions about what I am saying. You apparently, in your haste to condem and prove yourself superior misunderstand me. Jesus was sent to bring salvation to mankind, but each person, after being introduced to Jesus and God’s love for us, must choose to put their faith in Him as their Savior and Lord. That’s why it’s important for believers to share the Good News.
            3 As a Christian and Bible student and teacher for over 40 years I make a point of not taking scripture out of context.
            4. Over the years I’ve met others like you; angry, arrogant, a trial to your pastor and a terror to church members. Impatient, quick to argue, slow to show mercy or compassion, quick to judge and condem.
            I’m sorry for your unhappiness and self-obsession. I will no longer correspond with you.

          • PilgrimGirl

            I’m sorry, if you weren’t referring to 2 Peter 3:9 when you said, “The Father’s desire is that all humans will be saved by faith in Jesus.”, where did you get that?
            As you’ve been a Bible student and teacher for over 40 years, and you clearly state that Jesus “died so that all mankind would have the opportunity to be saved” and that “Jesus was sent to bring salvation to mankind”, what does it mean to “trodden under foot the Son of God” and count the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing” (Hebrews 10:29) when the word “unholy” in that verse, translated from the Greek word “koynos”, means “shared by all or common”?

      • Jaime Allred

        They had “Religion” in my Catholic Schools. We did not open up a Bible, but went through the RCC Textbooks with workbooks. The church Never Had Bible Classes, or had a Bible in the Pews. You had Mass Books. 1960-90’s.
        Bible study is a new Phenomena within the RCC. I went to Catholic Schools from Elementary – College. We were Strongly discouraged from going to non RCC churches. RCC must be becoming more Protestant!

    • Jaime Allred

      I was a Catholic for 23yrs. Attended all Catholic schools to include College. I too opened the Bible and was amazed of the falsehood, I was taught in the RCC.

  • p78

    The apparitions of Mary in Fatima, Portugal were nothing more than demonic activity masquerading as a holy event. No miracle just a demonic deception which the Catholic church has clung to

    • Chris

      “The apparitions of Mary in Fatima, Portugal were nothing more than demonic activity masquerading as a holy event.”

      You mean like the apparitions of Jesus to the apostles?

      • Jaime Allred

        Jesus was the Son of God.
        Maybe this is why there is a need for Exorcists in the RCC – they follow False Doctrine and Disregard the Bible.

        • Chris

          Your argument is a non-sequitur. Jesus, according to Christian doctrine was fully human as well as fully divine. How is it that a demon can’t imitate a human?

          • Jaime Allred

            The false doctrine of the RCC, worshipping of Idols, saying prayers to people the Pope deemed as saints, the lie about the Succession of Peter through the Popes, the false immaculate conception, assumption of Mary, adding books into the bible which are not original to the Talmud all show of what Timothy warned of.
            John Paul II’s 1987 encyclical Redemptoris Mater began with the sentence: “The Mother of the Redeemer has a precise place in the plan of salvation. False
            Acts 20:28-30 – Paul warned that men would come who would teach error and lead people astray. Such men would come even from among the elders, who lead local churches.
            2 Timothy 4:2-4 – Paul warned Timothy to preach God’s word – even when it is not popular – and to rebuke error, because the time would come when people would not want true teaching. People would turn aside from truth and seek teachers who would please their own human desires.
            1 Timothy 4:1-3 – The spirit expressly predicted that the time would come when some people would fall away from the true faith and would follow lies and false doctrines. Specifically, they would say that certain people should not get married and that people should abstain from certain foods (“meats” – KJV, ASV).
            Throughout history, false teachers have tried to lead God’s people astray. But here are express predictions that such would happen among God’s people in the church, even telling us some examples of false things people would teach. When this happens, we need to understand that the false teachers and those who follow them have ceased to be true followers of God.
            (See also Matthew 7:15-23; Galatians 1:6-10; 1 John 4:1,6; 2 Corinthians 11:13-15; 2 John 9-11; Ephesians 5:11; Matthew 15:14.)

          • Chris

            Your entire reply is another non-sequitur fallacy. We are talking about how demons could have imitated the form of Jesus.

            In addition if demons imitated the form of Jesus then anything written after by the followers of Jesus may be dismissed as the writings of those who have been misled by demons.

            I did not even mention veneration of saints, use of statues, etc. We can discuss those later if you wish but, since I am untrained in Catholic theology my input would be rather limited.

          • Brad Sexson

            the dead know nothing

          • RWH

            Interesting. When Scripture refers to the cloud of witnesses, who could it be referring to? You don’t think that the choir of saints in heaven can’t see what is going on on earth?

          • Chris

            What does that have to do with the argument?

          • Laurence Charles Ringo

            Since you keep bringing this up,Chris, do you have,or can you present any BIBLICAL PROOF whatsoever that a demon/demons imitated the Form of Jesus the Christ in ANY verified sense? Any of the Church Fathers EVER make such a claim? Did Jesus Himself say it happened or would happen? If you don’t believe that Jesus was resurrected bodily from the dead,why not just say so instead of engaging in this silly, pseudo-theological dance? Frankly,it’s ridiculous and makes YOU sound woefully ill-informed.If you actually believe that demons imitated Jesus the Christ in ANY verifiable sense,just say so,and stop the nonsense. PEACE IN CHRIST. 😐.

          • Chris

            “Since you keep bringing this up,Chris, do you have,or can you present
            any BIBLICAL PROOF whatsoever that a demon/demons imitated the Form of
            Jesus the Christ in ANY verified sense?”

            I can do what you would probably do…make an assumption and then interpret a verse from that assumption. We both know however that such an exercise, on both our parts, would be eisagesis rather than exagesis.

            “Any of the Church Fathers EVER
            make such a claim? Did Jesus Himself say it happened or would happen?”

            So people who already believe that the appearences of Jesus were real have to suggest that they weren’t to convince you?

            Ok I’ll play by the same rules. Do any Popes condemn the accepted appearances by Mary as demonic? I’m just using your argument.

            “If
            you don’t believe that Jesus was resurrected bodily from the dead,why
            not just say so instead of engaging in this silly, pseudo-theological
            dance?”

            Well I was using your argument. If you don’t like it then don’t make it. However since you ask I don’t accept the resurrection since there’s no evidence for it.

            “Frankly,it’s ridiculous and makes YOU sound woefully
            ill-informed.If you actually believe that demons imitated Jesus the
            Christ in ANY verifiable sense,just say so,and stop the nonsense.”

            Since I’m imitating your argument I agree your argument is silly.

          • Laurence Charles Ringo

            I think that you have confused yourself here,Chris. I made no argument against the Resurrection of Jesus the Christ, and I DEFINITELY would posit the ludicrous idea that He or any given image or vision of His Appearances were demonic constructs. As for Mary herself, being Protestant I give her the due Scripture gives her,but I most certainly don’t attach all the invented dogma and doctrine Roman Catholicism attaches to her,so…at any rate,thank you for clarifying that you reject the Bodily Resurrection of Jesus the Christ; the reasons you have for doing so are irrelevant to me. PEACE. 😄.

          • Chris

            “I think that you have confused yourself here,Chris.”

            Indeed you did not. My apologies if I gave the impression that you had made such a claim. That wasn’t my intention.

            “I made no argument
            against the Resurrection of Jesus the Christ, and I DEFINITELY would
            posit the ludicrous idea that He or any given image or vision of His
            Appearances were demonic constructs.”

            I was originally responding to p78. He declared that the visions of Mary were demonic in nature. I replied, using his argument, that by the same token the appearances of Jesus were demonic in nature. My argument was merely a reductio.

            “As for Mary herself, being
            Protestant I give her the due Scripture gives her,but I most certainly
            don’t attach all the invented dogma and doctrine Roman Catholicism
            attaches to her,so…”

            Well then we have that in common.

            “…at any rate,thank you for clarifying that you
            reject the Bodily Resurrection of Jesus the Christ; the reasons you have
            for doing so are irrelevant to me. PEACE. 😄.”

            To you as well. And thank you for your politeness.

          • Chris

            “I once asked an atheist this question: Since you do believe in
            historical reality, explain the origin of the Christian Faith/Church
            WITHOUT the Resurrection of Jesus the Christ. I’m still awaiting his
            answer; perhaps you would like to try? PEACE.☺.”

            Indeed I would. I explain the existence of Christianity the same way I explain the worship of Zeus, or Apollo, or Horus, etc. A religion is merely an expression of belief. There may well have been, at one point, a real person which inspired the belief, but the belief has grown far beyond that reality.

            Think of the Elvis Lives phenomenon. Do I explain this continuing belief that Elvis is alive by suggesting that it must be because Elvis was resurrected? No. Such a phomenon is merely an expression of belief inspired by an actual person – in this case Elvis Presley.

          • Brad Sexson

            except for a select few mention in the Bible and mary is not one of them…..she is dead in her grave

          • Chris

            Once again what has your reply got to do with the argument?

          • Chris

            So was Jesus.

      • Brad Sexson

        no that is not what he meant ……mary is dead in her grave she is not in heaven

        • RWH

          So, Jesus lied to the thief on the cross when He told him that the thief would be in paradise? I was under the impression that soul sleep was a heresy.

        • Chris

          Jesus was dead in his grave too.

  • Gail

    I must have missed it. When did Mary die on the cross for our sins?

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    Not all Catholics are this cult-crazy, but all Catholics do need to read the Holy Bible and honor Jesus alone.

    • Shosh 7154

      Mary has no more distinction with G-d than any other believer who obeys the Word of G-d…look what Yeshua Himself said about Mary…

      Matthew 12:46-48 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        Amen. It’s amazing how much Catholics ignore what Jesus said.

        • BuckeyePhysicist

          Why do you say this? Where did you learn that?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            ? Comparison of the text of the Holy Bible and what the Catholics say. It’s been 500 years.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            Who taught you those lies about my Church?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Compare the two. The Church belongs to Lord Jesus Christ and not to you. Revelation chapter 1-3. Sticking to errors is your own responsibility. This news is the proof. Read the Word of God as every true Christian should.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            Define “true Christian.”

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Those who believe in the one true living Triune God and trust in Jesus’ atonement and resurrection alone for salvation and live a new life in Him with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and acknowledge the Holy Bible alone for ultimate authority in life. John chapter 13-17. I Corinthians 15. Galatians chapter 1-2.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            That’s a very good definition.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Thank you. The Protestant systematic theology puts everything in the Holy Bible and declares sound Biblical doctrines.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            The issue is this: All Protestants say they believe the Bible by the Holy Spirit yet no two Protestant cults believe the same things. There is no systematic theology within Protestantism. The Holy Spirit cannot teach the Baptists one thing and the Lutherans the opposite.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Protestants are not cults, though the Sodomy-affirming Western mainliners are. The Mormons and the JWS and the Unification “church” are not Protestant but just original cults. The Protestants have the most biblical systematic theology that includes all of the text of the Holy Bible without omissions or additions. There is only one Baptism. The timing and the mode of the Christian baptism does not affect salvation.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            That’s right about one baptism! Most Protestants I meet tend to think there are two or three baptisms but St. Paul is correct in Ephesians 4:5 about there being only one. So long as baptism is done in the Trinitarian — Father, Son, and Holy Spirit– form we’re good with it. Sprinkling or immersion are acceptable.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Yes. Immersion signifies the Christian’s spiritual reality more accurately, but the Baptists’ re-baptism seems unscriptural, although the difference here again does not touch anyone’s salvation.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            I don’t understand rebaptism either. When people come to the Catholic Church from other Christian sects we do NOT require rebaptism because of Ephesians 4:5. If someone wants rebaptized we’ll do it — but that’s most unusual.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The Baptists live up to their name. Thoroughly educated ones do not force re-baptism but maybe it’s more for joining the denomination, I don’t know. I really like the Baptists. The denial of infant baptism and the practice of re-baptism is the almost only thing really disagreeable about them. They separate the Old Testament era and the New Testament era although the mainline Protestants see both as seamless.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            I’ve met some excellent Baptists in the pro-life movement. How can anyone deny infant baptism? We read of St. Paul baptizing entire households with no exclusion for children and of course there’s Acts 2:39 where St. Peter promises baptism extends to children.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Good. The Baptists believe: first the personal faith and then baptism. They don’t see baptism as the continuance of the Covenant. It is personal.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            The point of contention I’ve had with Baptists over baptism isn’t the form but the setting and the definition. As a Catholic I believe baptism to be a sacrament where God’s invisible grace is applied to us in a visible manner. Baptism washes the stain of original sin away and that’s why we baptize infants — and why God designed Christian marriage. We Christian parents raise our children in the faith from Day One.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The Baptists have baby dedication. Baptism merely symbolizes the spiritual union with Jesus in His death and His rising from the dead, and Christians do it in obedience to Jesus; baptism itself saves no one.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            Have you read 1 Peter 3:19-22?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Yes, it’s the baptism’s spiritual reality, not the ceremony itself; so the Baptists are all right.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Yes, I did. The timing and mode of baptism may differ, but the spiritual reality in that passage is the same.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            You added to your first response so now I must comment. Where can it be found within Sacred Scripture that the Bible is the final authority? We all accept the Bible as inspired (cf. 2 Timothy 3:16) by God but where is the “final authority” found within its pages? The answer is simple: It’s not in there. The Bible states the Church (cf. 1 Timothy 3:15) is the standard.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Revelation 22. The warning against adding and substracting from the Word of God there is not a co-incidence but God’s will.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            I agree with that. We cannot add or subtract. That’s not my issue.

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    God said: “I am the Lord, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, nor My praise to graven images. Behold, the former things have come to pass, now I declare new things; before they spring forth I proclaim them to you. …I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; that men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun that there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, the One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these.” ( Isaiah chapter 42, 45)

  • pierrelk

    The Holy Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, the Immaculate Conception, the Queen of heaven and earth, the Queen of Angel and Saints, the General Commander of the Army of Heaven, the Mother of the Church, our Heavenly Mother, the Dispenser of the Treasury of the Most High, the Mediatrix of all graces sharing with her Son in the redemption of souls, the Secret Eastern Gate – as called by the Church Fathers and Saints – through this Gate our Lord Jesus Christ entered the world the first time and through this same Gate He will come the second time. (Our Lady apparitions in Medjugorje and her messages to the world)

    And the Lord God said to the serpent: “You are cursed… I will put enmities between you and the woman, and your seed and her seed, she shall crush your head and you shall lie in wait for her heel. (Genesis 3:15 )

    Mary’s power over the evil spirits will especially shine forth in the latter times, when Satan will lie in wait for her heel, that is, for her humble servants and her poor children whom she will raise up to make war against him…This will happen especially at the end of the world, and indeed soon, because Almighty God and his holy Mother are to raise up great saints…They will be great and exalted before God in holiness. They will be superior by their great zeal and so strongly will they be sustained by divine assistance that, with the humility of their heal, in union with Mary, they shall crush the head of the Devil, and cause Jesus Christ to triumph… Such are the great men who are to come, that Mary is to prepare by the order of the Most High, to extend his empire over the impious and unbelievers. (St Louis De Montfort 1673-1716)

    • Jaime Allred

      Wow – that is not Christian at all. I guess you don’t read the bible and rely on man made stories. God and Mary ; Jesus and Mary are not on the same standing. Mary’s immaculate conception and assumption are all made up.

      • pierrelk

        Jesus is God. Mary is glorified as the Mother of God. We will also be glorified. I did put a verse from Bible. There are many more.
        “Dear Children, accept me as a mother and a messenger of God’s love and his desire for your salvation. Put God in the first place in your life. I am calling you to a complete surrender to God. I desire to lead all of you to my Son, your Savior. You are not aware that without Him you do not have joy and peace, nor a future or eternal life. Read and meditate on Sacred Scripture, and may the words written in it be life for you. Read the messages that I have given you and transform them into life. You must be poor in spirit and filled with love and mercy. You must have pure and simple hearts and always be ready to serve. I want to lead you all to perfect holiness. I want each one of you to be happy here on earth and to be with me in Heaven. That is the purpose of my coming here and it’s my desire.” (Our Lady of Medjugorje)

        • Jaime Allred

          Please provide the Bible Chapter and Verse.

          • pierrelk

            Genesis 3:15 above. The seed of the Woman – the new eve Mary – are the Christians.

            Psalm 45
            At your right hand the Queen in Gold of Ophir (the holy Virgin Mary).
            Listen, daughter, consider, and turn your ear. Forget your own people (the Jews), and your father’s house. So will the King desire your beauty; For he is your Lord, adore him.
            All glorious is the King’s Daughter within. Her clothing is of wrought gold. She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework.
            Instead of your fathers (the Jews) shall be your children (Christians), whom you shall make princes in all the earth (sons of Mary, sons of God).

            And you, Bethlehem Ephrata, are a little one among the thousands of Judah, out of you shall He come forth unto Me who is to be the ruler in Israel (Christ to be born in Bethlehem), and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity (Deity of Christ). Therefore He shall give them up (Christ to abandon the Jews after his rejection and crucifixion), until the time wherein she who travails (the Virgin Mary) shall bring forth (The birth of the Church of Saints the children of Mary the children of God in heaven; the Church translated to glory); and the remnant of His brethren shall return to the children of Israel. (salvation of the remnant of Israel in the end times)” (Prophet Micah 5:2,3)

            And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars (Apocalypse 12:1). (the Virgin Mary – the last fight against the dragon – the apparitions in Medjugorje).

          • Charles

            None of that says to glorify Mary.. Because you won’t find any. She also had other children, so she wasn’t a perpetual virgin. She was blessed among women. End of Story.

          • pierrelk

            In subsequent apparitions to Lucia in 1925 (Our Lady of Fatima) and afterward, Our Lord Jesus and Our Lady gave to the religious sister Lucia details including the five first Saturdays devotion. These are in reparation for the five kinds of offences and blasphemies committed against Our Lady which require reparation as revealed to Lucia.

            Blasphemies against the Immaculate Conception
            Blasphemies against her Perpetual Virginity
            Blasphemies against her Divine Maternity, and refusing to recognize her as Mother of Men
            Blasphemies by those seeking to alienate children from her
            The offences of those who insult her in her sacred images

            The Holy Virgin appeared to Lucia, and by her side, elevated on a luminous cloud, was the Child Jesus. The Holy Virgin rested her hand on Lucia ‘s shoulder, and as she did so, she showed her a Heart surrounded with thorns, which she was holding in her other hand.

            At the same time, the Child Jesus said:

            “Have compassion on the Heart of your Most Holy Mother, covered with thorns, with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment, and there is no one to make an act of reparation to remove them”.

          • Charles

            “”In subsequent apparitions to Lucia in 1925 (Our Lady of Fatima) and afterward, Our Lord Jesus and Our Lady gave to the religious sister Lucia details including the five first Saturdays devotion. These are in reparation for the five kinds of offences and blasphemies committed against Our Lady which require reparation as revealed to Lucia.

            Blasphemies against the Immaculate Conception
            Blasphemies against her Perpetual Virginity
            Blasphemies against her Divine Maternity, and refusing to recognize her as Mother of Men
            Blasphemies by those seeking to alienate children from her
            The offences of those who insult her in her sacred images””

            That’s called a hallucination.. Not apparition. Of course, no scripture.. More made up fantasies by the Catholic Church. I’m shocked.

          • pierrelk

            ‘Mass hallucination… More made up fantasies by the Catholic Church’ ???

            Fatima miracle of Oct. 13, 1917

            A Woman Clothed with the Sun! Gradually the sun grew pale, lost its normal color, and appeared as a silver disk at which all could gaze directly without even shading their eyes. Then, to the astonishment of all present, rays of multicolored light shot out in every direction; red, blue, yellow, green, every color of the spectrum. Meanwhile, the very heavens seemed to be revolving as the sun spun madly on its axis like a gigantic wheel of fire, painting the rocks, the trees, the faces of the people with sunshine such as human eyes has never seen before. Three times it stopped and three times the mad dance was resumed. Then, while the crowd went to its knees in abject terror, the sun suddenly seemed to be torn loose from its place in the heavens. Down it hurtled, closer and closer to the earth, staggering, “drunkenly” as it zigzagged through the skies while from all parts of the now terrified multitude arose cries of repentance and appeals for mercy.
            Suddenly, as if arrested in its downward plunge by an invisible Heavenly hand, it poised from a moment and then, in the same series of swirling motions it began to climb upward till it resumed its accustomed place in the heavens. Gone was the silver disk with the brilliant rays. It was once more a ball of fire at which nobody could look directly with unshaded eyes.
            During that day drenching rains had left an estimate 70,000 pilgrims soaking wet. The apparition site, was a pit of mud. After the miracle the weather was beautiful. While the people looked at one another, still trembling from their terrifying experience and not yet sure that some further disaster would not overtake them, a cry of astonishment was heard on every side. The rain-sodden garment had suddenly dried, and the muddy pit of land was also dry.

          • pierrelk

            In June 2000, the Vatican has released the unrevealed 3rd Secret of Our Lady of Fatima as stated by Lucia. The word “etc..” above was that which concerns this part.
            Lucia writes: After the two parts which I have already explained, at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendor that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: ‘Penance, Penance, Penance!’. And we saw in an immense light that is God: ‘something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it’ a Bishop dressed in White ‘we had the impression that it was the Holy Father’. Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels, each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God.

          • Charles

            >>>(Pope Leo XIII, had a century ago an apocalyptic vision, when he saw the Church attacked by demons, and heard the Lord giving Satan 100 years to test the Church, he then instituted the prayer to St Michael. The century of trials is about to reach climax and end.)<<<<

            Here's some lofty quotes from this Antichrist.

            "But the supreme teacher in the Church is the Roman Pontiff. Union of minds, therefore, requires, together with a perfect accord in the one faith, complete submission and obedience of will to the Church and to the Roman Pontiff, as to God Himself."

            Pope Leo XIII, Sapientiae Christianae: On Christians as Citizens (January 10, 1890)

            "This thought has been, and is, a source of deep concern to Us; for it is impossible to think of such a large portion of mankind deviating, as it were, from the right path, as they move away from Us, and not experience a sentiment of innermost grief. But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty…"

            I"m sure Demons were attacking the Catholic Church because they have no protection from God. They live there 24/7 in the Vatican.. I mean seriously… This joker Leo claiming to be God..The pagan symbolism. 666 Signs, Hexagrams, Pedophilia, all out Satan Worship, Francis flipping devil horns, etc.. Constantine's phony "Vision", or how that fraud was worshiping the Sun God a week before his death (Got to keep up appearances you know!). I mean, it would seem right to make the idol worshiping "Mother Teresa" a "Saint" right (But then all paths lead to God right? Or is it just the ones the Catholic Church endorses?). Do you even know who the saints are? Obviously not. I could go on and on with the apostasy of your religion.

          • pierrelk

            Reposting…
            The persecution of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church as revealed by Our Lady of Fatima. in the Cathechism, and the Holy Bible. After this happens, the world and the Anti-Catholics will rejoice, and the world  will be under Just Divine Jugement. Many will be saved through this final haulocost, and many will turn from their errors.

            Catechism of the Holy Catholic Church – #675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh. #677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection….

            Our Lady of Medjugorje – You must realize that Satan exists. One day he appeared before the throne of God and asked permission to submit the Church to a period of trial. God gave him permission to try the Church for one century. This century (20th century) is under the power of the devil; but when the secrets confided to you come to pass, his power will be destroyed.
            (Pope Leo XIII, had a century ago an apocalyptic vision, when he saw the Church attacked by demons, and heard the Lord giving Satan 100 years to test the Church, he then instituted the prayer to St Michael. The century of trials is about to reach climax and end.)

            I only make 1 quote from the Holy Bible. There are many more and in the final book the Apocalypse (Revelation).

            And out of one of them, came forth a little horn, and it became great against the south, and against the east, and against the glorious land. And it was magnified even unto the host of heaven, and it threw down of the host, and of the stars, and trod upon them. And it was magnified even to the prince of the host, and it took away from him the continual sacrifice [ Holy Eucharist] , and cast down the place of his sanctuary [Catholic Church – Rome]. And strength was given him against the continual sacrifice, because of sins; and truth shall be cast down on the ground, and he shall do and shall prosper…
            When iniquities shall have come to the full, there shall arise a king of a shameless face [Antichrist] , and understanding dark sentences. And his power shall be strengthened, but not by his own force [by Satan] ; and he shall lay all things waste, and shall prosper. And he shall destroy the mighty, and the people of the saints, according to his will, and craft shall be successful in his hand; and his heart shall be puffed up, and in the abundance of all things he shall kill many; and he shall rise up against the prince of princes, and shall be broken without hand. [by Christ] (Prophet Daniel 8:9-12; 23-25) (also Daniel 11)

          • Charles

            Do you not think Satan can appear as an “Angel of light”? Catholics sure are easily fooled.

            2col11:14
            4 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

          • Charles

            I’ve read the story thanks.. Do you not think Satan can appear as an messenger of light?

            (2Co 11:14) And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
            (2Co 11:15) Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

          • pierrelk

            Read also the prophesy below of the end of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church as revealed by Our Lady of Fatima. I am adding also more in the Cathechism, and the Holy Bible. After this happens, the world and the Anti-Catholics will rejoice, and the world  will be under Just Divine Jugement. Many will be saved through this final haulocost.

            Catechism of the Holy Catholic Church – #675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh. #677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection….

            Our Lady of Medjugorje – You must realize that Satan exists. One day he appeared before the throne of God and asked permission to submit the Church to a period of trial. God gave him permission to try the Church for one century. This century (20th century) is under the power of the devil; but when the secrets confided to you come to pass, his power will be destroyed.
            (Pope Leo XIII, had a century ago an apocalyptic vision, when he saw the Church attacked by demons, and heard the Lord giving Satan 100 years to test the Church, he then instituted the prayer to St Michael. The century of trials is about to reach climax and end.)

            I only make 1 quote from the Holy Bible. There are many more and in the final book the Apocalypse (Revelation).

            And out of one of them, came forth a little horn, and it became great against the south, and against the east, and against the glorious land. And it was magnified even unto the host of heaven, and it threw down of the host, and of the stars, and trod upon them. And it was magnified even to the prince of the host, and it took away from him the continual sacrifice [ Holy Eucharist] , and cast down the place of his sanctuary [Catholic Church – Rome]. And strength was given him against the continual sacrifice, because of sins; and truth shall be cast down on the ground, and he shall do and shall prosper…
            When iniquities shall have come to the full, there shall arise a king of a shameless face [Antichrist] , and understanding dark sentences. And his power shall be strengthened, but not by his own force [by Satan] ; and he shall lay all things waste, and shall prosper. And he shall destroy the mighty, and the people of the saints, according to his will, and craft shall be successful in his hand; and his heart shall be puffed up, and in the abundance of all things he shall kill many; and he shall rise up against the prince of princes, and shall be broken without hand. [by Christ] (Prophet Daniel 8:9-12; 23-25) (also Daniel 11)

    • RWH

      Pierrelk, Has the Catholic Church made any clear pronouncements concerning Medjugorje? This site has been a bone of contention between the Catholics and the Orthodox. This was the site where many Serbs were pushed over a cliff because they would not convert to Catholicism. The Canonization of Cardinal Stepanic has been held up, I believe, because it would create a greater rift with the Orthodox, who consider Stepanic and evil person who looked the other way as the Franciscans were slaughtering the Orthodox Serbs. Europeans think differently from Americans in that they look toward the past and never forget every single little injustice inflicted. Europe can be a lot of fun. There is a three-way line that divides Catholic Europe from Orthodox Europe, from Moslem Europe. And the line has been demarcated with the blood inflicted from all sides.

      • pierrelk

        I dont believe we should question God much why the Cross, why wars, why evil, why all the religious deceptions and false apparitions, why all our daily strugles…

        The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church has not made a decision regarding Medjugorje, but allowing millions pilgrims to go and worship there.

        So the real subject and purpose is far beyond:

        “Dear Children, you are all important in this great plan, which God leads through Medjugorje. God desires to convert the entire world and to call it to salvation and to the way towards Himself, who is the beginning and the end of every being. Be my extended hands for every creature, so that they may draw closer to the God of love. Read Sacred Scripture, live it, and pray, to understand the signs of the times. With your help, everything I wanted to realize through the secrets I began in Fatima may be fulfilled. I call you, dear children, to grasp the importance of my coming and the seriousness of the situation. Through you, I desire to renew the world. My children, my apostles, help me to open the paths to my Son. ” (the Second Advent of Jesus Christ).

        • RWH

          Pierrelk, thank you for your answer. The Catholic Church has been doing a lot of tippy toeing on this issue because the relationship between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church of Serbia is still rather raw. The Church of Serbia and the Church of Russia are very close allies, so what affects Serbia affects Russia. I know that the Pope would like to visit Russia. I don’t know if that will ever happen. The Russian Church is still irritated that the Catholic Church opened four dioceses in Russia (an insignificant move considering the size of Russia) and have even titled the dioceses something other than geographical names. There is still a lot of discord over Western Ukraine where the Greek Catholic Church seized a number of Orthodox parishes.

    • pierrelk

      God the Holy Spirit, became fruitful through Mary whom he espoused. It was with her, in her and of her that he produced his masterpiece, God-made-man, and that he produces every day until the end of the world the members of the body of this adorable Head. For this reason the more he finds Mary his dear and inseparable spouse in a soul the more powerful and effective he becomes in producing Jesus Christ in that soul and that soul in Jesus Christ…
      St Louis de Montfort

  • Jaime Allred

    Were do people get this from? Mary is not in the same standing as Jesus. I guess, anyone can make things up and sell it.

  • Red Eagle

    The RC church is not a Christian religion.It is a pagan religion. It’s roots go back to the mystery religion of ancient Babylon. Their doctrines declare that the church is above the doctrines of the bible and the Pope being VICARIVS FILII DEI in Roman numerals 666. (Vicegerent of the son of God) is written on the ceremonial Miter, and declares him equal with Jesus the son of God.

    • Chris

      “The RC church is not a Christian religion.It is a pagan religion.”

      Definition of Catholic “denoting or relating to the entire body of CHRISTIANS, esp to the Church before separation into the Greek or Eastern and Latin or Western Churches”

      What have you got against dictionaries?

      • Red Eagle

        Love dictionaries, very useful. Have you tried using history books? Emperor Constantine in the 4th century incorporated Roman paganism, which traces it’s religion back to Mystery Babylon with Christianity, thus the Catholic universal religion. Universal as in accepting all religions with Christianity defiling the word of God!

        • Chris

          “Have you tried using history books?”

          I’ve not only tried using then I hold a degree in history.

          “Emperor Constantine in the 4th century incorporated Roman paganism,
          which traces it’s religion back to Mystery Babylon with Christianity,”

          Two points:
          1) Constantine did no such thing. There was actually a fight between Constantine and the pope as to who set doctrine.

          2) All pagan religions do NOT trace back to Babylon. For example the worship of Serapis was popular in Rome. Serapis can be traced back to Egypt.

          “Universal as in accepting all
          religions with Christianity defiling the word of God!”

          That’s NOT what the term means. The RCC was, and is, considered universal since it incorporates ALL Christians within its body. If you’re going to tell people the meaning of words try looking them up first.

          • Red Eagle

            I have a BA degree in Christian Theology. Read the word of God before you try to defend a religion that has murdered millions of bible believing Christians through out history who refused to eat the Jesus cookie and declaring it to be the actual body of Christ. Fox’s book of Martyrs would be a good start. Here’s a list of just a few of the religious groups the Catholic church have tortured and murdered. The St. Bartholomew Day massacre in France 70,000 Protestant Huguenots slain. The Waldenses, the Albigenses, the torture and murder of Serbian religious leaders by Catholic priests dressed as Ustashi police during WWII.
            The fight you spoke of between Constantine and the church surely was won by the Emperor since he changed the 4th commandment of God’s 10 commandments of keeping the Sabbath on the 7th day to the 1st day of the week, from Saturday to pagan Sunday worship. The breaking of the 2nd commandment: Thou shall not make any graven images (Mary, saints statues) and the celebration of pagan holidays, Christmas, Easter etc. The bible says call no man father ( Mathew 23:9) No man can forgive sins ( Mark 2; 5-7) the Catholic church practices both. As far as your definition of universal The Christian church opens it’s door to all who call upon the name of the Lord, not who worship men and demons such as the Hindu’s and other religions that denounce Jesus as God in the flesh. As far as the subject of pagan religions having their roots in Babylon under the tutelage of Nimrod, Semiramis, and Tammiz, is more than time will allow. More information not conspiracy theory you might want to investigate is the Jesuit oath and see what the Catholic church wants to do to me as a Protestant heretic. Great horror story reading. By the way this is not hate speech it is history. God bless you.

          • Chris

            You have a degree in fundie theology. But your degree has NOTHING to do with the history of the Catholic Church.

            You then write “The fight you spoke of between Constantine and the church surely was won
            by the Emperor since he changed the 4th commandment of God’s 10
            commandments of keeping the Sabbath on the 7th day to the 1st day of the
            week, from Saturday to pagan Sunday worship. ”

            Early Christians writing decades before Constantine mention worship on a Sunday. It would seem your BA left out a few things. I suggest you read the book “Early Christian Writings”. It has primary sources which mention Sunday as a day of worship.

            Finally you wrote “As far as the subject of pagan religions having their roots in Babylon
            under the tutelage of Nimrod, Semiramis, and Tammiz, is more than time
            will allow.”

            Good grief where do I start? There is no archaeological evidence for the existence of Nimrod. Semiramis was Assyrian NOT Babylonian. And Tammuz was a figure in Sumerian Mythology. They didn’t tutor anyone.

            All you’re indulging in is conspiracy theories and hatred.

          • Red Eagle

            Chris I just gave you evidence showing the absolute disregard for the word of God by the Catholic church. The disregard for the ten commandments. The total disregard for millions of Christians murdered by this insidious religion. Since you seem to believe the bible to be Fundie interpretation this conversation is over. By the way Snopes.

          • Chris

            “Chris I just gave you evidence showing the absolute disregard for the word of God by the Catholic church.”

            Correction. You gave me YOUR interpretation of the bible and assumed that YOU were correct. That’s not how evidence works and it isn’t how theology is done.

            “The disregard for the ten commandments.”

            Which ten commandments? There are differing versions in the Hebrew testament. Only one group is referred to as the ten commandments. It’s the one which forbids a kid to be cooked in its mother’s milk.

            I would say most protestants disregard that version as well.

            “The total disregard for millions of Christians murdered by
            this insidious religion.”

            Or the protestant disregard for the millions of Catholics they have murdered? The wars of religion which raged through Europe weren’t only Catholic killing Protestant.

            “Since you seem to believe the bible to be
            Fundie interpretation this conversation is over.”

            I said no such thing. I accused YOU of a fundie interpretation. Strange that you can’t tell the difference between YOUR interpretation and the Bible itself.

            “By the way Snopes is a biased organization created by a liberal couple in Palo Alto California.”

            What you’re arguing now is known as the genetic fallacy. In other words you feel you can dismiss any info you don’t like because of where it comes from. Try instead to show that the evidence is faulty.

            “Fact: Constantine changed the Sabbath from Saturday to the worship of the sun to Sunday.”

            Why then were Christians worshiping on a Sunday decades BEFORE Constantine was even born? Did Constantine travel back in time?

            “Supposedly people talking about change means nothing.
            I am getting off this merry go round. There will be no more responses to your rebuttals! .”

            Translation: “you are realize you are losing the argument” Got it.

          • PC

            You can lead a horse to water…but you can’t make him drink! Some are blinded to the truth and no matter what you say or present they can’t see beyond the trees of the forest. It’s like throwing pearls to swine. Bottom line, a Christ follower is one who follows our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ an no human can fill the role of co-savior. Because of our fallen nature we are born into sin, including Mary. God saw favor in her because of her faith in Him. In the same way He saw favor in David, Abraham, Moses, Jacob.

          • Chris

            Catholic theology is diverse and I know of numerous Catholic theologians who would agree with most, if not all, you’ve written.

          • PC

            Catholic theology is confused. Simple, follow Christ only – no other is needed.

          • Chris

            I disagree. Roman Catholicism is a broad church. It has numerous viewpoints unless the pope has spoken on something to do with the faith.

            As far as simply following Jesus…doesn’t every single denomination claim they are simply following Jesus?

          • PC

            You can disagree all you want but the simple truth of the Gospel says it all. Jesus said “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by Me.” Simple. You need no one else. Religion was created by man. Being a Christ follower is having a personal 1 on 1 “relationship” with Jesus the Son who is our only intercessory. We don’t require a “Pope” or a priest to come between us and our Lord, Jesus the Messiah. God gave us a reasoning to choose between Him and Satan. One only needs to study scripture which interprets itself. It is an individual choice and not a group endeavor. It’s okay if you choose to disagree. I am not opposed to that. As for me and my house I choose to follow Christ into eternity. He is my center and my hope and my salvation. End of discussion.

          • Chris

            As to your reference concerning the Jesuit Oath here’s a quote from Snopes “However, they all cite a book titled Foxes, Firebrands and Forgeries:
            Robert Ware’s Pollution of Reformation History, by Diarmaid MacCullough
            (I would really love to read it myself), which refers to Robert Ware, a
            prolific and apparently nasty forger, who also produced the infamous
            Protocols of the Elders of Zion. It appears to be a particularly
            unpleasant forgery which was not discovered for over 300 years”

            You’ve bought a pup as they say in my country. To put it simply you’ve been conned. I have a suggestion. When anyone makes a claim [and that includes fundie claims] adopt a skeptical attitude and ask for evidence. Preferably historical, archaeological or scientific evidence depending on the claim.

          • Chris

            “The fight you spoke of between Constantine and the church surely was won by the Emperor since he changed the 4th commandment of God’s 10 commandments of keeping the Sabbath on the 7th day to the 1st day of the week, from Saturday to pagan Sunday worship.”

            Really? Let’s check a Catholic bible shall we? “8 ‘Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.”

            It would seem you are mistaken. Care to apologize?

          • Charles

            Actually it’s the idol worship commandment they leave out. Ironic isn’t it? And Constantine was worshiping the Sun God a week before his death. He was no Christian by any stretch.

  • Suemarie Chickadee

    I’m Catholic and I cringe when I read articles like this because I think it feeds a misperception that our Protestant brothers and sisters have of Catholic teaching. And I know just as in any church, we have our own internal disagreements but I can tell you what I was taught and what I have learned. Mary was chosen by the Father to bear His Son, conceived by the Holy Spirit and born both human and divine. Mary is an inspiration to us because she is the ultimate model of faithful servant having both submitted completely to the will of the Father and putting all her trust in the Lord. There are Catholic philosophers that say as Mary nurtured Christ in her womb, she can also be a mother figure to us, nurturing us to grow more like Christ. I have always been taught that Mary’s role, her whole reason for being, is to point us to her Son, never for her glory but for the glory of God and the birth of our Savior. Luke 1:46-55 On a personal note, I can’t help but imagine how much sorrow we bring our Lord when His body attacks itself. I don’t see how a professed believer can speak such evil and spew so much hate against a Christian brother or sister. Not quite growing in His image. Luke 11:37-44.

    • kenster777

      None of the apostle’s or Prophets Mention Mary after Jesus’s Death
      He said he will send his Holy Spirit to us to teach and Guide us.
      Mary is never mentioned as part of being a redeemer or Mediator
      Teach others to turn away from false teachings is not hatred but love

      Turn a brother away from a sin not unto Death will cover a multitude of sins
      Try the spirits to see if they are of God
      Mary was a blessed vessel but not above any other chosen vessels God has Used
      Elijah, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Moses

      Only in Jesus name do we have Salvation, Redemption through his Blood

      • Mike Feehan

        Well said and done…Way too many false teachings, man made traditions in this church…Indulgences, purgatory, infant baptism, confessing your sins to a priest, calling priests Father, Mary being sinless, nowhere is any of this found in Scripture…All man made traditions which the Bible speaks against, Mark 7:13, Colossians 2:8…Cursed is the one who trust in man, Jeremiah 17:5.

  • PilgrimGirl

    There are only two forms of religion in the world. One is true, the other is false. One is saving, the other is damning. Those two forms of religion are free-grace and free-will.
    Free-grace declares that salvation is the work of God alone. Free-will declares that salvation is, at least in part, the work of man.

    Free-grace declares that salvation is conditioned upon the obedience of Christ alone as the sinner’s Substitute. Free-will declares that salvation is ultimately and finally conditioned upon the obedience of the sinner himself.

    Any doctrine that makes salvation, eternal life, acceptance with God, and the reward of the heavenly inheritance to be dependent upon, or determined by you, at any point or in any measure, is contrary to sound doctrine. To receive, believe, or embrace such doctrine will be damning to your soul.

  • PilgrimGirl

    There are only two forms of religion in the world. One is true, the other is false. One is saving, the other is damning. Those two forms of religion are free-grace and free-will.

    Free-grace declares that salvation is the work of God alone. Free-will declares that salvation is, at least in part, the work of man.

    Free-grace declares that salvation is conditioned upon the obedience of Christ alone as the sinner’s Substitute. Free-will declares that salvation is ultimately and finally conditioned upon the obedience of the sinner.

    Any doctrine that makes salvation, eternal life, acceptance with God, and the reward of the heavenly inheritance to be dependent upon, or determined by you, at any point or in any measure, is contrary to sound doctrine. To receive, believe, or embrace such doctrine will be damning to your soul.

  • Gilbert Mariano

    Mary deserves the title Co-Redemptrix because she participated in a very special way in the redemption of fallen man by giving Christ a human nature. Not only is she a Co-Redemptrix, she is also the Mediatrix of all Graces. I hope my Protestant brothers here would realize how great is the dignity of Mary. If you’ll ever make it to heaven, you will see that she is the Queen there.

    • John_33✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

      The Bible doesn’t say that Mary had anything to do with Redemption. In fact, in Luke Chapter 2, she said that she needed a savior. Mary needed a savior to save her from her sins.

      • Gilbert Mariano

        Only Jesus Christ is the Savior of humanity. Let us all be clear to that. The title of Co-Redemptrix does not place Mary on equal footing with Jesus as the Savior but is an acknowledgment that she participated in a very special way for the redemption to be accomplished by giving birth to Jesus. And let me also clarify your statement that “Mary needed a savior to save her from her sins.” Mary is sinless. She is the Immaculate Conception and this is the way God saved her from sin in view of the future merits of Jesus Christ that was applied to her soul at the moment of her conception. God in His wisdom never permitted Mary to inherit Original Sin. Remember what the Angel Gabriel told her during the Annunciation “Hail Mary, full of grace.” and that means she is full of God and hence cannot sin.

        • John_33✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

          On the contrary, if Mary never sinned, then she would never need a savior. Otherwise, what was she being saved from?

          This is my concern when I read your reply. You say that she is not on equal footing with Jesus before proceeding to put her on equal footing with Jesus (sinless, etc.).

          What does the Bible say? Does the Bible say we are sinless?

          “The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
          3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
          ~ Psalm 14:2-3

          “But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.” ~ Galatians 3:22

          Mary could not be sinless because God concluded ALL under sin. Mary was just as sinful as you and I. In fact, the Apostle John explicitly condemned this thought:

          “If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” ~ 1 John 1:10

          We are all under sin because we are born sinful, but God wasn’t born sinful. He’s God and avoided sin because He was born of the Holy Spirit.

      • Gilbert Mariano

        Not everything is in the Bible and if it’s not in the Bible it doesn’t mean it’s not true.

        • John_33✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

          Everything we need is found in the Bible, as 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”

          We know that everything in the Bible is true. If there is a doctrine that contradicts what the Bible says, then we must reject it.

          In Luke 1:46-48, Mary called God her Saviour. If Mary was a co-redemptrix, then she would not need to be saved. Jesus didn’t need to save Himself from any sins because He didn’t have any. He was a perfect, spotless Lamb, but Mary needed to be saved just like we do.

          “And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.” ~ Luke 1:46-48

  • PilgrimGirl

    There are only two religions in all the world: free-grace and free-will. The one is true but the other is false. One is saving but the other is damning.
    Free-grace declares that salvation is the work of God alone. Free-will declares that salvation is, at least in part, the work of man.
    Free-grace declares that salvation is conditioned upon the obedience of Christ alone as the sinner’s Substitute. Free-will declares that salvation is ultimately and finally conditioned upon the obedience of the sinner him/herself.
    Any teaching that makes salvation, eternal life, acceptance with God, and the reward of the heavenly inheritance to be dependent upon or determined by you, at any point or in any measure, is contrary to sound doctrine. To receive, believe, or embrace such doctrine will be damning to your soul.

  • nineleven

    Catholics who continue to go along with this group are on the road to apostasy. This doctrine IS heresy plain and simple. The protestant church needs to say with one voice to the catholic church this is heretical just like they did to the protestants and then killed thousands and thousands of Christians in the dark ages.

    • RWH

      The Reformation is over. People can do things through the power of persuasion. We don’t need another conflict such as the one in Northern Ireland where there was a lot of rancor, and nothing was solved. Contemporary Catholics within the United States are not the same Catholics as in medieval Spain.

      • nineleven

        Heresy is heresy. Paul would say the church needs to repent of it, rebuke it or flee from it. He rebuked the false brethren who wanted to bring the church back into the bondage of law keeping and circumscision…he said that he hopes that they emasculate themselves! Thats not mamby pamby talk. This above straying from the truth has nothing to do with the reformation or persecution. this has to do about staying in the central truths of The Lord.

        • RWH

          Fine, you’re entitled to speak the central truths of the Lord–as you interpret them. However, you’re not going to win any Catholics to your side with a combative attitude. I know of many lapsed Catholics would would take offense at a combative attitude that does nothing more than slam their church.

          • nineleven

            Sorry, but sometimes the truth really hurts. When the conviction of God comes according the scriptures it should come with Psalm 51 level conviction and repentance and turning around and doing what is good and right and then the Lord brings healing and restoration. All Christians should be on board with this…thats how a person gets in the kingdom of God from day one.

          • RWH

            Well, this is your truth, you interpretation of Scripture. There are 250 Protestant denominations within the United States. All claim to teach the truth. People are always welcome to present their reading of Scripture. Unfortunately, some only know how to do so by throwing rocks at others and being uncivil.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            Hate and derision is all the Protestants have.

  • Sparky

    This kind of heresy is why I left the catholic church and have never looked back. They have changed God’s laws and the pope declares himself as God on earth. Mary was not immaculately conceived, she was just a woman who agreed to be used as Jesus’ mother. She then went on to have other children and live a normal life just like the Bible says she did. The Mary worship, the statues, the Sunday Sabbath, good Friday and easter Sunday etc is all man made tradition. Jesus’ ministry was spent condemning the religious leaders for putting tradition above God’s word. He did not come to start a new religion buy to set us free from it so we can have a personal relationship with Him

  • https://disqus.com/home/channel/escapefromegypt/ Escape from Egypt

    The Catholic idea that Miryam (or Mary) should be “Co-Redemptrix With Jesus” is another inexorable logical extension of Catholic doctrine. Catholic doctrine has been building up to this doctrinal statement for years.

    To put this in perspective: For years, Catholicism has been “linking” Miryam (or Mary) to Yehoshua (or Yeshua, or Jesus), in the sense that it keeps saying, “Whatever Jesus did, Mary did as well, somehow.”

    In this way, Catholicism has been slowly, but certainly making Miryam (or Mary) into a “co-Messiah” with Yehoshua (or Yeshua, or Jesus).

    Why? Well, I believe that, true to its original purpose of being a syncretistic religion, which was meant to merge “Christianity” with Paganism, in the Roman Empire, Catholicism–the Roman Imperial Church–has been and is essentially treating Miryam (or Mary) and Yehoshua (or Yeshua, or Jesus) as a mother god-child god duo, which is essentially a double-god of some sort.

    Problem is, Catholicism has already made YHVH (or God) into a triple deity, which is called “The Trinity”. So, how the Magisterium of the Catholic Church would harmonize, theologically and politically, the triple deity of “The Trinity” with the double-deity of the “co-Messiahs”, Miryam (or Mary) and Yehoshua (or Yeshua, or Jesus), is not clear.

    Perhaps this is why the Catholic Church has not officially embraced the “Mary is Co-Redemptrix With Jesus” doctrine yet.

  • http://www.dontneednostinkinwebsite.com/ Midlandr

    What utter equus feces, this is heresy. The Gospel of Saint John, chapter 14, verse 6. Mary was an honored woman, the mother of Jesus and his siblings.

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    Idol-worship in the Roman Catholic Church.

  • http://www.dontneednostinkinwebsite.com/ Midlandr

    I thought the Gospel of Saint John was very clear in chapter 16, verse 6.

  • BuckeyePhysicist

    These comments! Just, well, I can’t find the words. Come to Mass please. Just once. Come and see what you’ve been taught from the likes of Jack Chick and others is totally and completely wrong. We Catholics love Jesus, we worship Him alone, and He is our only way to the Father. We don’t worship Mary, we don’t worship the pope, and we do read the Bible at Mass. Most of the derogatory comments I see on here are from innocent ignorance, merely parroting what you might have heard from someone on an anti-Catholic website or read from a tract you’ve seen. Please come to Mass. You’ll be glad you did.

  • GLT

    Would someone who supports the International Marian Association please provide a sound Biblical defence for the claim that Mary was immaculately conceived and therefore, sinless. By Biblical, I mean the concept must be defended solely from the Bible. Not by tradition or by the writings of later church leaders.