‘Pope Francis’ Declares ‘Saints’ Deceased Fatima Children Who Purportedly Saw Apparition of Mary

FATIMA, Portugal — Jorge Bergoglio, the Roman Catholic leader known as Pope Francis, has “sainted” two of three Portuguese shepherds who purportedly saw an apparition of Mary a century ago and are credited with two miracles following their death. The occasion, which is widely accepted among Catholics worldwide, is rejected by evangelicals, who note numerous conflicts with biblical orthodoxy.

According to reports, an estimated 500,000 people flocked to the Fatima Sanctuary Complex on Saturday, where the children are buried. Some crawled the final few yards on their hands and knees.

“According to the belief and experience of many pilgrims—if not of all, Fatima is more than anything this mantle of light that protects us, here as in almost no other place on earth. We need but take refuge under the protection of the virgin Mary and to ask her, as the Salve Regina teaches: ‘Show unto us … Jesus,'” Bergoglio declared.

“With Mary’s protection, may we be for our world sentinels of the dawn, contemplating the true face of Jesus the Saviour,” he said.

The canonization took place exactly one hundred years to the day that Roman Catholics believe that Mary appeared to three shepherd children—Jacinta and Francisco Marto, ages 9 and 7, and their cousin Lucia—telling them to return to the location on the thirteenth of each month for the next six months, where she would deliver various messages.

“Will you take us to Heaven?” Lucia asked.

“Yes, I shall take Jacinta and Francisco soon, but you will remain a little longer, since Jesus wishes you to make me known and loved on earth. He wishes also for you to establish devotion in the world to my immaculate heart,” Mary replied, according to Catholic legend.

  • Connect with Christian News

Some of the children during the purported visitations asked for healing for certain acquaintences who were ill.

“Some I will cure during the year. Pray, pray very much. Make sacrifices for sinners. Many souls go to Hell because no one is willing to help them with sacrifice,” Mary replied.

Identifying herself as “the lady of the rosary,” she also asked that a chapel be built in her name and that the children continually pray the rosary to help end World War I.

“I want a chapel built here in my honor. I want you to continue saying the rosary every day. The war will end soon, and the soldiers will return to their homes,” Mary said.

The Marto siblings died while still children during the flu pandemic, but their cousin lived to be 97. Lucia provided an account of the incident to the Vatican, and locals built a chapel and a statue to Mary at the location, which later also became the site of an elaborate basilica.

The children’s bodies were exhumed and moved to the basilica, and Roman Catholics began making regular pilgrimage to the location.

In the Roman Catholic religion, in order for a person to be sainted, they must be credited with bringing about two miracles after their death through their intercession, with the exception of just one miracle for those who are martyred for their faith.

In 2000, John Paul II issued a decree stating that the Marto siblings were jointly responsible for a miracle, and “beatified” the deceased children. A woman who watched the service on television then claimed that she prayed to Jacinto and Francisco for healing of her child’s diabetes, and he was cured.

In March, Bergoglio signed a decree recognizing the purported second miracle required for canonization, and then traveled to Portugal to declare the Martos as “saints” on Saturday in front of half a million followers. He also prayed before the children’s tombs and offered a golden rose at the feet of the Marian statue.

“Hail holy queen, blessed virgin of Fatima, lady of immaculate heart, our refuge and our way to God!” he declared, according to a transcript from Vatican Radio.

Gendron

However, not all believe that the Marian apparition was of God or that the canonization process is biblical.

“It is heartbreaking to see hundreds of thousands of Catholics being deceived by great signs and wonders that our Lord warned us about (Matthew 24:24),” Mike Gendron of Proclaiming the Gospel Ministries told Christian News Network on Monday.

“The Bible warns us that these last days will marked by the activity of Satan, who will use signs and false wonders to deceive the world (2 Thessalonians 2:9). Our only protection against deception is to test everything with the supreme authority of God’s Word (Act. 17:11).”

He said that it could not have been Mary who appeared to the children.

“We know it was not Mary who appeared to the Fatima children because the apparition proclaimed a different gospel,” Gendron explained. “One of the messages the ‘counterfeit Mary’ gave was, ‘Many souls go to Hell because there is no one to make sacrifices for them.’ Other messages that were given to the children called for Catholics to do penance and obey the law for salvation, which is contrary to the gospel.”

The former longtime Roman Catholic who now encourages adherents to compare Catholic doctrine with Scripture also noted the absurdity of crediting the deceased with miracles.

“The unbiblical tradition of canonizing dead Catholics who are credited with two miracles began in the 12th century with Pope Innocent III. The number of miracles that were required fluctuated over the years from two to six until the 1917 Code of Canon Law provided a loophole. If miracles were lacking, the pope could dispense the requirement,” he outlined.

“Yet, the word ‘saint’ appears 229 times in the New Testament and not once does it refer to the deceased who had been been credited with miracles, but rather the living faithful who been sanctified by the truth of God’s Word,” Gendron said.


A special message from the publisher...

Dear Reader, because of your generous support, we have received enough funds to send many audio Bibles to Iraqi and Syrian refugees displaced by ISIS in the Middle East. Many have been distributed and received with gladness. While we provide for the physical needs of the people, we seek to provide the eternal hope only found in Jesus Christ through the word of God. Would you join us by making a donation today to this important work? Please click here to send an audio Bible to a refugee family >>

Print Friendly, PDF & Email
  • Grace Kim Kwon

    The Catholics must read the Holy Bible – all of it – and ask Jesus for help. There is no other cure for them.

    • Parodyx

      They do not need a cure, and you are not a doctor to prescribe it.

      • Oboehner

        They are being led astray, they need salvation.

        • Parodyx

          Then let them get it, they don’t need your help.

          • Amos Moses

            not so good advice from a “pair of …..” …. how did you spell that ………..

          • Parodyx

            And your advice is to tell saved Christians they need to be saved. Real helpful Amos.

          • Amos Moses

            if they follow a false Christ ….. YEAH ….. they do ………… and yes …. it is helpful ….. to Christ ……..

          • Sharon_at_home

            Hi Moses. If they are following the bible they are not following a false Christ. Unless you can prove that they are not following the bible, you don’t have a leg to stand on with that statement.
            There have been many interpretations on the bible as well, so your church’s beliefs are from one interpretation, and others, I’m guessing, are on other interpretations. One is not right and one wrong, they are just different. I believe God allowed the separation of Churches because different people needed to look at it differently and He provided them so other people could still have the hope of Salvation.
            He provides His children with all that they need.

          • Amos Moses

            if a person only follows parts of the bible …… then yes ….. it is a false christ ….. to say that Christ is love ….. and to ignore all the other aspects and characteristics of God/Christ ….. is creating a god in the image we want Him to conform to ….. and that is just as much idolatry as to worship Baal or any other false god …………..

            “I believe God allowed the separation of Churches because different people needed to look at it differently and He provided them so other people could still have the hope of Salvation. ”

            God does not change because we choose Him to do so …… and scripture tells us why “God allowed the separation of Churches” …… it has nothing to do with our belief why it is so ….. God has declared why it is so ………

            1Cor 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

            2Pet 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

          • Amos Moses

            Hostess: Hi. Welcome to Build a God. How may I help you?
            Guest: Hi, I received a Build a God gift certificate so I am here to build my own deity.
            Hostess: Oh, this has got to be so exciting for you.
            Guest: Oh, it really is.
            Hostess: OK, Lets get started. First we have to determine if your God is Male or Female or Unisex.
            Guest: Men are pigs anyway, so she has to be Female.
            Hostess: Great choice. Now we have to select some of the attributes of your Goddess.
            Guest: What do you provide?
            Hostess: Do you want her to be kind, loving, compassionate? Just, angry, righteous, wrathful?
            Guest: The goddess I believe in would only be loving and kind.
            Hostess: Perfect. Now is there any kind of sin that you are intending to buy your goddess?
            Guest: Sin?
            Hostess: You know, things like lying, cheating, stealing, murder, homosexuality ……
            Guest: Well I definitely want my goddess to be gay affirming and sin itself just seems to be so negative. I am a good person and I think my goddess will think everyone else is, too.
            Hostess:Oh, wonderful. Your goddess is coming along beautifully. Now we have to get the difficult questions. Does your goddess offer an afterlife?
            Guest: Yes! My goddess would let everyone go to heaven. Except for Hitler, Genghis Khan and my good for nothing ex-boyfriend.
            Hostess: Excellent, Excellent! Now the final step, you have to name your goddess.
            Guest: Hmmmmmmmm. I think …. I am going to name her Jesus.
            Hostess: Oh, Wonderful ….. Thats what everyone names their god.

          • Amos Moses

            Modern Preacher: God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. He can fix your life, your marriage, your finances, your self esteem.

            Sinner: WHAT, GOD LOVES ME …. thats fantastic, I love me too … THIS IS WONDERFUL …. And you are saying He loves me more than I love me? Now, that sounds impossible. How could anyone have such a great love. AND GOD HAS A WONDERFUL PLAN FOR MY LIFE ….. I have a wonderful plan for my life. too. And you are telling me if I accept this Jesus He will help me with all my wonderful plans? And I can have my best life NOW?

            Modern Preacher: Yes ……..

            Sinner: Wow, that really is a wonderful god, I like a god like that, You got two of them …..

            -Paul Washer

            idolatry …………..

          • Sharon_at_home

            You are generalizing just like Grace was. (I think she’s much better now) You cannot generalize about any group of people like that. There will be ones that don’t believe in not disciplining people for sins because they have become part of the world and are not of God in their views of sins. But not every Church is like that, Moses.
            Our Pastor speaks about sins, while he praises the Lord for the good things that we have because we are God’s children. The sins the general public do, are probably not so big that they need to be disciplined by more about how their love of Jesus will make them want to give up their sins. Once they repent, God has forgiven all their sins, and He wants us to acknowledge our sins to Him and ask forgiveness/repent. So teach the people to have a strong faith, trust and belief in God is enough to make those who do have them, want to repent, and are vigorous in trying to learn the sins they are doing in order to be sure to ask God for forgiveness. For the love of God, not for any other reason.
            Because He gave every one free will, and wants people to follow Him and obey him by that free will, and then become one of His children by salvation. I’m confused why you believe in the parts you do instead of Jesus’ words for us to believe and teach. His message was love first, then he wanted us to take our free will and repent of our sins and have the hope of Salvation.
            I have to go- I’m worshiping and praising His name tonight at my church Youth convention. God Bless!

          • Amos Moses

            “You cannot generalize about any group of people like that. ”

            what “group of people” …… look …. you seem to be mixing the saved and the unsaved …… they are not treated the same …… as they are not the same …………. and you cannot mix those different groups …… your thoughts seem confused ….. you need to be more specific about what we are talking about ….

            “So teach the people to have a strong faith, trust and belief in God is enough to make those who do have them”

            FAITH …. is a gift of God ….. one does not teach it ….. one does not learn it ……. BELIEF ….. is a gift of God …… it is not created by the individual …… so again ….. your thoughts seem confused ….. it seems you think we have some part in out own salvation ….. WE DO NOT …. if we do, if we did …… WE would not need Christ …………. God/Christ WILL NOT share that Glory with ANYONE ….. not even the person being saved ………….

          • Sharon_at_home

            You believe that but it’s against God’s Word. I totally
            I’m going to find that scriptures yet. I’ll show you God’s Word that says He doesn’t make people believe, and he has given us free will and wants us to make the decision to believe.
            You do believe that God gave us all free will, right?
            You sound like you haven’t read the gospel properly, did you know that?
            It is the most important thing that Jesus gave us to bring people to Him.
            SMH
            Where did you learn that people who are in Christ are “better” than people without it? The closest I can come up with is that God said we are a peculiar people and He wants us to stand out against people who have not turned to Him. It doesn’t mean you can puff yourself up and tell yourself that you are better than anyone. You don’t know Jesus at all. Not a bit. You believe such evil hateful things, but I keep to the bible – all the way right to the end. I think you’d better re-read the gospels. Do you think a God who is Love….

            I am honestly stunned at the way you are telling me what you believe. I can’t see a tear drop of love in anything you say. not a bit. You don’t have love and compassion and are not anything like my Jesus. You sound like all we are supposed to care about is ourselves and then only if we have been saved? SMH It shows that you are nothing like Jesus and are not following His Words because you listen to a Priest who had shown only anger and hate at you. Jesus wants us to love EVERYONE, not just our brothers and sisters. He says it very plainly to love everyone and he gave NO restrictions or orders that contradict it in the bible.

            I really don’t think you are thinking of God’s Command to not have Pride, because the pride I see in yourself is turning you to darkness. You honestly are not supposed to behave the way you are. If you won’t listen, and examine yourself with God’s Word, you’ll always put people below you and God won’t give you Salvation unless you repent (stop doing it) We’re supposed to be humble, not uppity. Doing everything in love and not just the love involved with helping a sinner.

            I’m going to be spending a lot of time re-reading the NT and looking at my bible study books etc. to find where it says that Jesus IS love and we are supposed to behave like Jesus – according to the scripture that tells us to let our light shine so that God may have the Glory. We are peculiar people chosen by the Lord only if He brings you to a church, to learn and understand about Salvation like He did with me. Jesus would never have a hard heart as you seem to when it comes to other people. Acting like you do towards others, as if they are lower than you… Amos specifically told us to be humble. He told us to be loving. He told us how to live and told us we could be saved, and how you have to repent your sins with an honest heart and believe in Jesus and His Salvation, or you cannot be saved. He expects us to use our free will to decide that our Salvation is worth giving up our sins, and he said he won’t use His power because He wants only the willing, not the unwilling. SMH How can you not know that? Amos I really enjoy our conversations, but I feel like you would be a bad influence on my faith. God said not to associate with someone who tries to change how I feel about Him. He took away my friends that were bad influences for me and HE found a church for me to go to that reflects what I have always believed. He blesses me every day with new blessings – not only new mercies, but with big and small blessings every day. He knows everything about me and He will direct me to my Destiny by using the things He knows about me already.

            He knows that I love everyone, and have always shown my love to everyone and care about them, sometimes too much! I have always lived by the Golden Rule and didn’t realize it was from the bible until I was a young adult. I agreed with it very strongly and lived with it all my life. I forgave people without really thinking about it and then I’d forget about it. Because it didn’t fit in with the Love I have for people. I need to forgive anyone that works against my God, and pray that they will still come to God before it is too late. I need to forgive someone for being an angry person that calls other people names because he thinks he is higher than them and that they are not worth much of his time, when being a soldier of God’s army are never to be weary nor give up right to the end of our time on earth. When Jesus comes for us in the clouds, then we have to finally give up on the people who still don’t have belief in Jesus and what He did for everyone when He died on that cross. When I think about it, I get weepy because I didn’t deserve His mercy and Grace because I was a sinner, and I hate to think of anyone having to suffer on my account. I honestly feel bad about it, and I praise the Lord regularly in thanks for it.

            I’m going to find the scriptures I need to show you why I believe the way I do. Other than that, you have to change your attitude towards other people before I will feel that you won’t be a bad influence for me. I do appreciate your discussions and in some ways I’ve learned from you, but most of it was about how people who claim to be Christian can act the way you do, and that there are many who are unimpressed with your religion and now, now I understand why. You don’t follow the bible in too many ways to be a Christian, so you do what you’ve been taught and deal with others with hate and no tolerance. I’d heard that about Catholics but I was hoping to open your eyes. Obviously you have listened more to the sermons than you do reading the bible.

            God bless you Amos with Wisdom and Understanding.

          • Amos Moses

            “You believe that but it’s against God’s Word. I totally
            I’m going to find that scriptures yet. I’ll show you God’s Word that says He doesn’t make people believe, and he has given us free will and wants us to make the decision to believe.”

            i have posted this to you before, i post it again …

            Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

            it says ….. “it is not of him that willeth” … so it is NOT mens will …. and …”nor of him that runneth” ….. not even those who run things …… “but of God that sheweth mercy” …. but GOD who shows mercy ………. it is ALL Gods will …….. mercy is giving us what we do not deserve …….. we deserve Punishment …… we are given MERCY …… we do not get MERCY by OUR WILL ……….. only by GOD WILL ……… our free will does not override GODS free will ………..

          • Sharon_at_home

            God does choose some people, but not all of them, and only the ones He has special duties for, like Pastors, and (obviously, Prophets), people who stand up for His people about their faith. But He allows His people to have free will and lets them choose for themselves. If you are a chosen one of God, He knows what kind of person you are before you are even born and He knows who would be able to do something important for Him, and who could not do those things. Of course he would choose some of us to do important jobs because He knows what is going to happen at all times, so He also knows our destiny. I never said He didn’t choose people at all, I said that the majority of people have to use their free will to choose. And they are not considered to be less than us.
            Blessings!

          • Amos Moses

            “Obviously you have listened more to the sermons than you do reading the bible.”

            i have given you nothing BUT scripture ……..

          • Sharon_at_home

            I know but Moses you give me the scriptures you have heard them talk about rather than reading and understanding more scripture than what they give you. They seem to miss so many things about the Gospel. SMH
            What can you not understand with the scriptures that point out God wants us to have free will. It is not an excuse to rebel against God, it is a gift that God gave to all of us so we could choose whether to have life, or death.
            Every one of those scriptures says how He wanted them to choose with their own free will. Every one, no scripture contradicts another Amos. God does not change. He does not make mistakes.
            I gave you a whole list of scriptures that show He wanted us to use our free will, and you still can’t accept it? Rather stubborn aren’t you…
            Proverbs 8:13
            “13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy,
            and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.”
            Stop being so proud and allow yourself to consider a different way of looking at the Gospel without standing on your church but with your own reverence in God. He wants you to have salvation but if you don’t realize that your attitude of pride and arrogance will lead you to death instead of life, if you don’t change the way you treat people and speak to them. Honestly Amos. I wouldn’t try to get you to read scriptures if I was trying to change your faith in God, would I? I love God and only want to help others come to Salvation and that includes the people who are waiting for the End days but have a view that isn’t of God.

            Lord God, I pray to you to give Amos the wisdom and knowledge to understand Your Word and to look inside himself to re-assess his life to see where he is not following Your Word, God. As I give you all the Praise and Glory in every thing you do. I pray in Jesus’ name. Amen

          • Amos Moses

            “I know but Moses you give me the scriptures you have heard them talk about rather than reading and understanding more scripture than what they give you.”

            NO …. i have given you the scriptures as they are in the scriptures ….. word for word …. line upon line … line upon line …. precept upon precept …. precept upon precept …….

            “What can you not understand with the scriptures that point out God wants us to have free will. ”

            1Corinthians
            2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
            2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
            2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
            2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
            2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

            no man can know the things of God until God grants them the Holy Spirit to INDWELL in them ….. until that time …. man has no will for the things of God except to reject them …..

            i am sorry if this does not fit your paradigm …. sorry if someone has not told you this truth …… but the truth is in the scriptures ……. Christ did not come to save everybody ….. He came for those that the Father sends to Him ….. and no others ….. God/christ is not a liar and not a thief …… he will not take sheep from anothers sheepfold …….. His sheep hear His voice ….. they will not follow any other voice once they hear it …. and even if the message of that voice may say things that the natural man finds cruel and incomprehensible ……

          • Amos Moses

            “I’ll show you God’s Word that says He doesn’t make people believe, and he has given us free will and wants us to make the decision to believe.
            You do believe that God gave us all free will, right?”

            We Are PREDESTINED to believe …. from the FOUNDATION of the world ….. by HIS choice … PREDESTINED even before Genesis 1 :1 occurred ……….. PREDESTINED to adoption …. ….. “according to the good pleasure of his will” …………. no preacher ….. SCRIPTURE ……

            Ephesians
            1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
            1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
            1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
            1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
            1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
            1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
            1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
            1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
            1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

            again …..”being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things” ………. He is the Sovereign Lord ……. the KING …. the King does not ask our permission to do His will …………..

          • Sharon_at_home

            Not all are predestined Amos. Those of us who were chosen by God likely were, although I don’t profess to know His ways or reasons for what He does.
            Read the scriptures I gave you. They are about how we choose our fate with our free will.
            Predestination is very misunderstood according to my Pastor. We were not able to finish that conversation though. He is always busy and only grants me time because he is a friend, and a Pastor, and I have always looked to him for answers. (Un?) fortunately, he has to shepherd over a flock that regularly has to be tended to.
            If I get to discuss it with him more I will post it then if I can.

          • Amos Moses

            “Not all are predestined Amos.”

            ALL are predestined ….. there is no exception in scripture ……… you cannot find one …. it is not there ….. some, in fact, many, are predestined to hell …….. now we are not given the knowledge of who they are ….. but the scriptures confirms this is so …….. the vessels of DISHONOR fit for destruction …………

            9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
            9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
            9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
            9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
            9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
            9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
            9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

          • Amos Moses

            “The gospel is preached in the ears of all men; it only comes with power to some. The power that is in the gospel does not lie in the eloquence of the preacher otherwise men would be converters of souls. Nor does it lie in the preacher’s learning; otherwise it could consists of the wisdom of men. We might preach till our tongues rotted, till we should exhaust our lungs and die, but never a soul would be converted unless there were mysterious power going with it – the Holy Ghost changing the will of man. O Sirs! We might as well preach to stone walls as preach to humanity unless the Holy Ghost be with the word, to give it power to convert the soul.”
            ― Charles Haddon Spurgeon

          • Amos Moses

            “Because He gave every one free will, and wants people to follow Him and obey him by that free will, and then become one of His children by salvation.”

            the unregenerate have no will to choose God ….. their only response to God is to do evil …… until God regenerates them they will not choose God ….. until God intervenes the only thing we can do is preach the full scriptures ………. the law and the gospel ……….. until God changes their heart ….. their only thought is to do evil continually …….

            Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

            Gen 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

            until God changes that heart ………………

            1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
            1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
            1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
            1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
            1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
            1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
            1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
            1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
            1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
            1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
            1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
            1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

          • Amos Moses

            man at best has only limited free will …… the unregenerate can only choose evil …… they cannot choose God until God allows it ……. and the regenerate have no will to NOT follow Him …….. inside of Gods will we need nothing …… outside of Gods will …. there IS NOTHING …………. we are HIS sheep …. We BELONG to Him …… and He will not lose even one ………….. and those who do not belong to Him …… those that belong to a different sheepfold ……….. He will leave to their master …….. satan …………..

          • Amos Moses

            Free will is mans excuse to deny the power of God, Christ and the Holy Spirit ……………. God does what He wants …… He does not need our permission to act …… God has NEVER asked ANYBODY if He could save them or if they wanted Him to save them …… He is not a beggar ……. He is the Sovereign God …..

            The sheep ….. DO NOT pick their shepherd ………. The shepherd picks the sheep …………..

            Our becoming a Christian does not add even one thing to God …… Our NOT becoming one …. DOES NOT subtract even one iota from Him ……..

          • Sharon_at_home

            Ok Amos, Here is my proof that God wants us to use our FREE WILL to choose to follow Him: (keyword: choose)
            These are the scriptures in the O.T. about free will
            Deuteronomy 30:19-20 <-this is the clearest about Free will.
            2 Chronicles 9:7
            Joshua 24:15
            Proverbs 16:9
            Genesis 2:16-17
            Isaiah 55:6-7
            Ezekiel 18:30-32

            And these are the ones in the N.T. about Free will.
            Mark 8:34
            34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

            John 1:12-13
            12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
            13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

            John 7:17
            17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

            1 Corinthians 10:13
            13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to
            mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

            Romans 6:23
            23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

            Romans 13:2
            2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring
            judgment on themselves.

            Romans 10:9-10
            9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
            10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

            Galatians 5:16-17
            16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
            17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

            2 Peter 3:9
            9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

            Galatians 5:13
            13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.

            Revelation 3:20
            20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they
            with me.

            If you need clarification on how these are about free will, please let me know so I can help you understand them.

            I am using this reply for most of your recent posts.

            I pray to God that you will understand more about what Our Lord really wants for us who are the Children of God, and for anyone that chooses to come to him. Please read your NT and try to see Jesus and the Loving and Caring Father that He is, and how he wants us to live to help people come to him and learn to trust and believe in Him so they will desire Salvation and all that it means to everyone.

            Amos, I love you as a brother, and I have only said what I have said in my recent posts to try to show the gravity of your errors in your belief in something other than the Gospel. When Jesus talked to the Multitudes, he wasn't telling them about sins only, He was telling them how to live with peace within. Brother, I want very much that you find it within you to reassess what you believe and what Jesus said he wanted us to behave like. Yes He convicted people of sins, but he did not terrorize them at the thought of Hell. He told them of his plan for salvation that included repentance of sins, and it turned them from their sins of their own choice. Just because someone walks away one time, it doesn't mean they are lost to Jesus, it means that they need somebody or something else to show them the way and that's where we come in to talk to people even when they seem like they will always be lost, and to keep trying because He wants all to come to repentance and Salvation.

            I'm sorry. I pray that God gives you peace, brother, and the wisdom and understanding so you can change your direction slightly. After all, your love of God shines brightly – Bless you!

          • Oboehner

            Not biblical either – you catholics even know what a Bible is? Romans 1.

          • Parodyx

            Not a Catholic. My statement stands.

          • Oboehner

            Then why do you troll this then?

          • Parodyx

            I can stand up for the non-hateful Christians without being a Christian.

          • Oboehner

            Looking the fool as you have no clue. Trollin’, trollin’, trollin’.

          • Parodyx

            Speaking of trolling, what was that line you had about there being no proof of evolution, again?

          • Oboehner

            I believe it was… there being no proof of evolution.

          • Parodyx

            There’s that gloriously reckless lack of science acceptance we have come to find so adorable.

          • Oboehner

            “There’s that gloriously reckless lack of science acceptance we have come to find so adorable.” – Evolution.
            I love you presentation of proof there, quaint.

          • Parodyx

            Evolution is accepted settled science. You didn’t accept it because that would mean you can’t call it “faith” anymore which is your way of attempting to level the playing field. Your game is clear.

          • Oboehner

            Popular opinion based on a religious atheistic worldview – hardly scientific as it excludes anything that doesn’t fit in the box. As far as “calling it faith” that’s ALL you have is faith. Don’t have to attempt anything, I made a statement that there is NO proof of evolution to which your reply was some mumbo jumbo about popular opinion and a hack on the beliefs of others.
            The evolutionist playbook is simply appeal to authority arguments or ad hominem attacks. I can predict already that will be all I get from you – it’s all you people have.

          • Parodyx

            Trollin’, trollin’, trollin’. You lose. Science wins.
            Fun hint: It’s not an appeal to authority when the source is iron-clad and factual. It’s an appeal to authority when you’re hanging off some unproven opinion. You think about that, now.

          • Oboehner

            Like I said, “appeal to authority arguments”. I haven’t lost anything, you still haven’t left the starting gate. Keep trying, I do love a good laugh.
            *Cheering for you* “Show that proof, show that proof!!”

          • Parodyx

            When someone goes through life with their eyes so tightly closed that they don’t have to acknowledge to themselves all the libraries full of evolution resources, all the evolutionary biologist jobs, all the millions of university papers, articles, and more – the enormity of the level of self denial involved is too absurd to even comment on. Maybe you spent too much time at Ken Ham’s Creation museum. “Show that proof” he says. Sigh. It would be hilarious if it weren’t so, so sad.

          • Oboehner

            “eyes so tightly closed” Back atcha.
            “libraries full” Yet you can’t come up with any proof, how sad.
            “all the evolutionary biologist jobs, all the millions of university papers, articles, and…” Appeal to authority arguments…
            “the enormity of the level of self denial involved is too absurd to even comment on.” Ad hominem attack.

          • Parodyx

            My eyes are wide open. I trust science. You trust a storybook. Not that you will ever acknowledge that.
            The proof is the fact that people live it. They live evolution. What do you think an evolutionary biologist does all day, speculate and guess? LOL.
            At least the superstitious snake oil con men with their holy books don’t try to pass their steaming piles of BS as anything science would ever even LOOK at.
            Ad hominem? No, just more of the facts you want to continue to pretend aren’t there.

          • Oboehner

            “I trust science. You trust a storybook.” Back to back, appeal to authority and ad hominem – well played!
            “The proof is the fact that people live it.” Obscure fallacy, keep going…
            “What do you think an evolutionary biologist does all day, speculate and guess?” You forgot “collect a paycheck”, but you tell me, I’m dying to know.
            Too bad the exploding dot con men with their fairytale books try to pass their steaming piles of BS as anything science with NO proof whatsoever.

            Just more of the “facts” you want to continue to pretend are there, yet never produce.

          • Parodyx

            Every time someone comes to you with proof you just sneeze at it anyway. If the mountains of information in universities doesn’t do it for you, nothing is going to – because you decided that a long time ago.
            This isn’t about proof. This is about how hard you can dig your heels in avoiding it.

            “You forgot “collect a paycheck”, but you tell me, I’m dying to know.”
            I think that’s the best thing of all. You actually think they are part of some global conspiracy theory and show up and collect a paycheck and go home and are somehow hoodwinking everyone.

            Still peddling your exploding dot strawman I see.

            And the absolute greatest thing about all this is, even if you were RIGHT, your own situation is still an entirely faith-based house of cards – the very thing you accuse other people of having.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Parodyx for me as a believer, it is my faith in God that has me believe what is of God and what isn’t. It is that belief that makes me question evolution as opposed to your belief that make you question the existence of a Divine Power.
            Most Christians are the same as me. They believe in God so they can’t find a way to believe anything that says something they believe was God, wasn’t.
            Isn’t that true of any personal belief? I know the basics of evolution but I have never read reams of article on the issue for 2 reasons, I am not intellectually gifted in understanding papers that people of a field could write. I would prefer a layman’s explanation to that. And because of my belief in God it doesn’t matter to me what is said in those papers. It’s not being stuck with my eyes closed, because I just learned about God and have believed what I have learned. I’ve had most of my life to decide on some things in the world and I wasn’t interested in things like that so I stuck with the things that did interest me.
            Can you agree it’s a personal matter to look at things with or without God?
            Blessings Parodyx, I pray you will have a wonderful day.

          • Oboehner

            Still no proof? If your ashamed of what you have, just make sure it’s sneeze-proof proof.

            They see what they WANT to see just like you do. Global conspiracy? They just hold the power, there are hundreds if not thousands of dissenters in the scientific community.

            “Still peddling your exploding dot strawman I see.” Saw you “goddidit” and raised you an exploding dot with the magically-appearing-life-from-ooze kicker. Let us not forget the bazillions of years of random chance. All’s fair in life and religion.

          • Parodyx

            The proof is still there. In the same exact place you have always ignored it. Libraries, universities, online. When are you going to go and confront it? Have you ever set foot in a museum?

            No one on my side says exploding dot. Strawman. But your side dies say goddidit. Every Sunday.

          • Oboehner

            I looked, guess what? No proof, maybe you could help out with that – just a little proof, that’s not to much to ask is it?
            Your side DOES say exploding dot. Every day.

          • Parodyx

            Sure, Oboehner. Our side says “exploding dot” about as often as your side says “invisible sky fairy”.
            The proof is there. It’s used daily by scientists and evolutionary biologists. Keep looking, little friend. I have faith you will find it.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Could you not agree that God began the process with evolution and that is missing because of disbelief in God, and they won’t even look at it trying to see God’s work, rather than trying to see a divine hand in it at the beginning that sparks the beginning of the evolution process?
            I’ve never heard an explanation on why they believe these single celled “creatures’ (because I can’t come up with another word) existed in the first place and why the first ones started to split like they did. It couldn’t be compared to others because it was the first so there would have to be a reason in the first ones that wouldn’t apply to the others.
            Where did they come from and what created them so they could start splitting off?
            Just a thought that’s I’ve wondered about before. I’m expecting that you will have an explanation but that it won’t include God, but I still would like to understand it. it could never change my faith, but it never hurts to understand other views, and really that is the only way that anyone could argue their stance. Blessings Parodyx!

          • Parodyx

            Well there are really two issues here, separate ones. One is evolution, which talks about change over time. The other issue is abiogenesis, which deals more with origins. Oboehner doesn’t know the difference between the two, or doesn’t care. And so you might be talking about transitional fossils and he will be talking about his “exploding dot” (his way of making fun of the big bang theory). He simply doesn’t understand what evolution is.
            As for the process of evolution itself, it’s complicated and I think most laymen probably can’t answer questions about the nitty gritty of it without doing a bit of research, but this appears to be a helpful article that describes what I think you’re looking for: astrobio dot net/origin-and-evolution-of-life/multicellular-life-evolve/
            In terms of God I’m not an atheist, since the whole realm of God isn’t really knowable my response to such things is that I don’t know – in fact I don’t see how anyone can. But I don’t mock those who do.

          • Sharon_at_home

            I know you don’t unless they mock people that you will stand up for. And thank you for the link I will check it out when I have time… hopefully soon.
            You are very good to try to explain things to me Parodyx. I think you have a good head on those shoulders of yours. Keep trying to explain things and even if you don’t reach them, you might reach someone else who is just reading our posts.
            Always smile; it makes people wonder what you’ve been up to. LOL

          • Sharon_at_home

            All “you” people have? I’d like to know who the people are being referred to “you” in that statement, please.

          • Oboehner

            Evolutionists as a whole.

          • Sharon_at_home

            First of all, it was not me who was supporting Evolution. It was other posters. Please be careful to reply to the poster you are focused on, ok? there are often lots of replies after the first post so it is sometimes difficult to reply to the original poster.
            Blessings!
            I will often ask people to be more accepting of other people’s views, but it doesn’t mean I support the view; I support the right to say your views without someone giving them grief about it rather than discussing the 2 views. Read my posts carefully and you will find I don’t have to support something to ask for respect of other people.
            Have a good day!

          • Oboehner

            After the reply arrow it gives the name of who is being replied to, in the case in question is was parodyx.

          • Sharon_at_home

            LOL!

          • Sharon_at_home

            You have the wrong idea of a troll. They don’t try to speak seriously except as a bait to get someone into a fight. That’s the purpose for all their posts, to start a fight.
            For the most part, if they are ignored, or called out as a troll, they will go and troll some where else.
            Parodyx has always been willing to discuss things when people are not rude to him, he just fights back when they are rude, that’s all.

          • Oboehner

            “That’s the purpose for all their posts, to start a fight.” Sounds right.

            Parodyx is NOT interested in the truth, he is only interested in “educating” us “religious haters”. He is a troll in every sense of the word, as an example I have asked him repeatedly for proof of evolution and all I get are accusations of stupidity (which he also seems unable to demonstrate).

          • Bill

            Trollin’, trollin’, trollin’.rawhide!

        • Sharon_at_home

          They receive Salvation from God and only require the people to believe the bible. You believe they are being led astray but others think your religion is being led astray. What’s the difference. It all comes down to God’s Righteous judgment.

          • Oboehner

            “Their refusal to surrender the scriptures was an offense that the Papacy could not tolerate. The Papacy was determined to exterminate the heretics from the face of the Earth. The heretics greatest offense, was that they refused to worship God according to the will of the Pope. For this crime, the heretics suffered every humiliation, insult and torture that man could invent:
            1) Hanged and their genitals were cut off
            2) The mothers were whipped
            3) The women’s breast were ripped off
            4) They were tied up and fried in a large pan
            5) Their mouths were sewed shut
            6) They were placed into a pot of boiling water
            7) Their arms and legs were cut off
            8) Some had their eyes bored out
            – (Fox’s Book Of Martyrs)

          • Sharon_at_home

            I’m sorry, what did you mean by this? That’s about Heretics. Who/what are you referring to with this. It’s not scriptural for sure.

          • Oboehner

            “Their refusal to surrender the scriptures was an offense that the Papacy could not tolerate.”

            “It is evident to those who consider the matter carefully,” said Pope Gregory VII, “that it has pleased God to make Holy Scripture obscure in certain places lest, if it were perfectly clear to all, it might be vulgarized and subjected to disrespect or be so misunderstood by people of limited intelligence as to lead them into error.”
            The RCC did not want the masses to read scripture for fear that, as in the case of Martin Luther, they would discover truth and the RCC would lose power. God wants that ALL read the Scriptures.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Umm. That’s not the bible. I only look at God’s Word, not your religious books written with no input from God Himself, thanks.
            Those books are what man says not what God said. Are you saying your religious books are as important as the bible. Not likely.
            I disagree with what is said in that quote anyway. God has too much control on everything that

            1. If it is not in His Word it is not truth. – as my religion is based on.
            2. He seems to work with other churches an awful lot considering your Pope’s view. Loving God and following Him is what He asked for in the bible.

            3. He would not believe that putting people down especially who are just as religious as you (loves God, Does His work) even if they do do it differently than you do. He didn’t like the Pharisee because they did not live like they told others to live. He made it sound like every thing they did was the reverse of how God told them to, but they still thought teaching it without living it, would be Ok with God. That’s why Jesus spoke to them so harshly.

            IMO Your Pope was just being pompous to believe that people need only the Catholic Church to know and do God’s work.
            God’s commandments in the Gospel are the only two things that God wants from us because together they cover “all the laws and Prophets” by how it is stated.
            “Matthew 22:37-40
            37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
            38 This is the first and great commandment.
            39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
            40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

            and to be honest, though you say you behave towards sinners because of Love, I don’t think God sees the Love when you don’t show compassion with that Love. He wants us to love each other like we love ourselves. If you don’t have true love (compassion) in your dealings with others, sinners or not, God will find you guilty of sinning by not doing that.

            I’m just trying to explain my point of view of what the 2nd commandment means. It means you are supposed to love everyone.

            As you have treated me badly – and I’m a sister – I don’t see love in what you have said to me. I can’t imagine what you do to show “love” to people you talk to about sin. Unless of course they are people who are like family to you.

            You do have a valid reason for being angry with certain people because of how it did affect your life. But it has angered your soul and made you view things with learned behaviour as the focus regardless of what it should be. Your relatives are still people, and you should love them just as much as you do everyone else in your life. And, I feel that love for them from you in no uncertain terms because you went the distance to try to help them.

            When you try to talk to them about their sin, do you do it by calling them names as well as telling them their behavior is a sin, and about God’s love for them? That’s how you show “love” to others who sin.

            Is that what God wants for us to do, really. If you love someone you can be straight about their sin without calling them names, but by using compassion to help them understand it. Besides, if you know any psychology at all, People do not hear much past an insult because they don’t want to hear it. If you don’t use insults you will be more likely to have them listen to you. If you look into your textbooks, you will find this is true.

            I sympathize with you, honestly I do, but you also have to realize that what you have learned by focusing on Learned Behavior is not keeping in mind that not all people who do this sin, are the same way. You can’t allow yourself to forget that there will always be people who prey on others – always. But not all of us are like that, so why would all homosexuals be like that. You can’t blame all homosexuals for something only a small amount actually commit. Most of them are just wanting to live their lives with equality, and to be left alone after that. That in itself is not a sin, it’s human rights. The sin is with their private lives and wouldn’t be out in the open at all if they had had equal rights for everything everybody else has before now. They wouldn’t be saying plainly that they are sinners other than the need to do it for equal rights.

            You have to look at what you learned without the focus being on learned behaviour through it all. I can’t imagine your studies not telling you the percentage of people who prey on people to ‘bring them to being like them.’

            Jesus said to “treat people the way you want to be treated.” I do that and people react to me kindly and willing to discuss the things we disagree with, without the fighting. Even the unbelievers.

            Please listen to Jesus, not me. I’m just trying you to see the truth, as Jesus said it is.

            God bless you and give you Peace and Joy Oboehner. Have a blessed day.

          • Oboehner

            “Umm. That’s not the bible.” Correct, it is a quote from catholic history.
            “I only look at God’s Word” That is a good rule to follow.

            “Those books are what man says not what God said. Are you saying your religious books are as important as the bible. Not likely.” That is what the RCC teaches, they teach that anything the church/pope asserts is as much gospel as the Bible itself – they teach against “sola scriptura” as they like to call it.

            “I disagree with what is said in that quote anyway.” As do I.

            One can love people without loving what they do to others and themselves, we are to resist evil.

            Homosexuality: Leviticus 18:22 “Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.”
            Leviticus 20:13 “If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of
            them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their
            blood will be on their own heads”

            Romans 1:26-28 “26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.”28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.”
            Gay is NOT ok, nor is it natural, by birth, or whatever other lies are told.

          • Sharon_at_home

            You know what I leave that to God. Because I am not suppose to convict a man of his sins, I am supposed to be emphatic about the need to repent. I am supposed to bring him to know about Salvation and Jesus’ love, and then when he’s ready, he uses his free will to decide if he believes and whether what God is offering is worth giving up their sins. If they have learned to love Jesus and the hope of Salvation, then when they repent of their sins they are baptized to be re-born again, and are regenerated when
            because they believe in Christ and what He did for all of us.
            Oh right that’s probably what started our discussions, which I have been enjoying very much.
            I can’t just dismiss the love that they have for each other because it is exactly the same as ours. and God IS Love, and said that if a man loves, he is of God. I haven’t figured that out at all. but my ways are not as high as His nor are my thoughts. I will discuss it with my Pastor but it may be a while as he is being made into a Bishop and He’s just a touch (a big touch actually) busy. Including the Youth Convention that is happening at our Church for two evenings and a Sunday service. I’ll talk to him about it and next time I see a post about gays, for or against, I will state how I have understood it from my Pastor. For all I know, he will not know and he will say the same thing I did about God’s way being much higher than ours. We are not able to second guess God, it’s not possible. You will never know anything unless He wishes you to. Even things about you that you don’t even realize He’s done.
            I do know that if the gays had not had to stand up for themselves to get equal rights – the same rights that we already have – If they had had equality they would not have had to make their sex life talked about in public because no one would know their sin without their permission and so they would never have had people who have not the understanding to yell and scream about their sin and make the men/women feel like they are hated instead the sin being what is hated.
            You know what? What you believe about being gay is your personal opinion from focusing on your view of ‘learned behavior’ and didn’t look for an alternate view at all since those might make you believe what they say.
            Go to God. Take your burdens to the Lord. He’s very good at taking away anything that you are worried about. He makes me forget about things when I give it to Him and when I do look at it again, it’s already been dealt with comfortably. God is Great! I praise His Name and I want to let you know that God will take your burdens and show you the way, helping you to deal with it.
            I am totally understanding of your situation and your feelings. I have 3 sons and one is gay. He’s walked away from me because he was stressed out with extreme anxiety and what I said did not sit well with him and he basically attacked me as a person and a mother. It hurt like nothing has ever hurt because it was like night and day when it happened. One day he signed of with Love you Mom, and the next I got emails telling me that I am not a kind person, and that I am homophobic, and I only do things for other people to ‘get’ something from it. It broke my heart because I am not any one of these things and he knows it in his heart.
            So I gave it to God, because it was weighing heavily on my mind because I miss him so much and he won’t even let people tell me about him on threat of not talking to them anymore.
            God took my burden and gave me peace knowing that God has control of the situation and He will prevail the way He wants to , knowing my prayers in Jesus’ name. I trust Him to bring him home to me, but only if that is what is best for me. I believe that God always tries to look into my future to see beyond where we can see, and knows what will happen down the road, so He knows the best way to work out a prayer request. He knows everything about everyone and and everything that is going to happen. He never forces us to obey Him because he gave us free will, but if you truly believe, you will obey anything He says to do.
            I’m all energized from a church event tonight, and I will review what I have said again when I’m not feeling the Lord’s touch quite like I have tonight. It’s confusing me about what I’m saying and I’m so tired I can’t do anything anymore. Good Night Oboehner. God bless!

          • Oboehner

            “emphatic about the need to repent”

          • Sharon_at_home

            Yup that is what the other posters here say that I should be. Personally I don’t focus on the sins the way other churches do. I prefer to focus on the message of Salvation and let them decide to repent on their own because they desire salvation, not because I think they are big losers because they are sinners.

          • Oboehner

            Other than the posters that say gay is ok, or abortion is somehow “birth control”.

        • Sharon_at_home

          Do you really think, as a believer of God, and with knowledge of His Omnipotence, that He would not have done something by now – like choosing a Pope that would follow God’s ways?

          Everything happens for a reason, and God directs all of it. God is also righteous in His Judgements and will deal with them on Judgment Day.

          Or does your religion believe that?

          • Oboehner

            God does not choose the pope, men do.
            Many will perish as a result of RCC’s false teachings, or is that ok by you?

          • Sharon_at_home

            How exactly do you know that God does not choose the Pope? Do you know other people who are the leaders of a faith that were picked by men and not by God?

            No one knows what God has done in this world, No one but God. You shouldn’t tell people something that is your opinion about someone like the Pope, who could very well be chosen by God. He would not be very happy with you if God did pick the Pope would he?

          • Oboehner

            Does the Bible ring any bells? Grab a King Jimmy and start with the Gospel of John and go from there. Read it all, repeat – indefinitely.

          • Sharon_at_home

            God appointed the Levi’s to be religious leaders. He chose Moses to lead the people out of Egypt. He chose Mary to be Our Lord’s mother…
            He chose Jonas to talk to a people about their need to change, and follow Him. He even chose a whale to swallow him.
            God chose people for specific ‘jobs’ all the way through the bible.
            Why would anything that God does be ‘unlikely’ when He can do anything and He does do things to direct His people all the time.
            I have been taught the gospel and live to follow Jesus. Obviously I’ve read the Gospel of John. Please quote the specific scripture(s) that states that God could not have chosen the Pope.
            I would appreciate it if you stop sounding so condescending to me. I appreciate the discussions very much, but I don’t think you should act like your ways are superior to mine, just because I personally have a different view on what God can and cannot do, and about what He wants us to do. My religion is just as valid as yours is. Besides, God discouraged us from Pride (and made it a sin) and by trying to sound like your religion is better than mine, or you are better than I am, I think it’s pride that makes you sound so judgmental towards me.
            I’m not saying your religion is wrong, I’m saying that it’s just not better than mine if it believes in the Gospel and tries to bring people to Jesus.
            Please adjust your tone if you can. I’d appreciate it.
            Also I feel it is disrespectful to call the bible “King Jimmy” as it IS a Holy Book.
            I’m looking forward to see the scriptures you feel tells us that God didn’t choose the Pope. I’ve obviously not read them with that being shown.

            Blessings!

          • Oboehner

            “He chose Mary to be Our Lord’s mother… ” He choose Mary to be a vessel to his human form to be more precise. Christ existed BEFORE even Adam was created. She is not his mother in the same sense as my mother is to me.
            As far as scriptures regarding the pope, he is the leader of a false religion, God’s will is not for someone to deceive, but to lead in truth. Start with the “graven images” commandment in Exodus. That should be enough there, and yes I am saying there are many, many unbiblical tenets involved in the RCC from bowing to graven images, to praying to anyone other than God the Father or God the Son (“I am the way the truth and the life…) salvation through works, adding to scripture, etc.
            That said, why would God choose an agent of darkness?

          • Sharon_at_home

            The Christ Jesus gave us 2 commandments that remove all the laws and all what the prophets said in the OT.
            Matthew 22:37-40
            37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
            38 This is the first and great commandment.
            39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
            40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

            I heard once that the Hebrews were still supposed to follow the Laws, but the Gentiles were not expected to follow more than those 2 commands, but I have not been able to find verification of it.

          • Oboehner

            “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.” Matthew 5:17

            I do believe that what was meant by ” On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets” was that those two commandments are the backbone of the law and the prophets, not that they circumvented or replaced them.

            https://www.thebereancall.Org/content/jews-gentiles-church Perhaps this might help.

          • Sharon_at_home

            We’ll have to disagree about that because that is not what I was taught. Thanks you for your reply.

            If it’s a Catholic site, it won’t help me because you believe differently.
            Thanks anyway though!

          • Oboehner

            Doesn’t matter how you were taught, it matters what the scriptures say.

          • Sharon_at_home

            You seem to forget that he was talking to the Jews when he said this. The Gentiles did not have to follow the law and only had the commandments that Jesus gave them.
            That is why I say that the old laws don’t matter – because I am a Gentile, and we have been separated from the chosen people of God and do not follow the same things.

          • Oboehner

            So you can murder then? After all it’s Old Testament.

          • Sharon_at_home

            What the heck are you talking about? God doesn’t want us to murder anyone. I go into the OT to understand some things in the NT but I strictly follow the Gospel and what Jesus said he wanted for us.
            So where did you get the impression that I would condone murder? I’ve certainly never said I did.
            I look forward to your reply.

          • Oboehner

            So you pick and choose depending on the mood you’re in?

          • Sharon_at_home

            She was His mother and He had human in him from her to learn what it was like for God’s creation. Yes I believe Jesus was around way before the world, But God said in His word that He created a son with Mary, not that she was ONLY a vessel.
            She should be respected for the part she played in Jesus’ birth and the first years of His life. But that is the extent of what we believe about her.

          • Oboehner

            Is he human now? She was only a vessel, God did not create Jesus with her, the holy spirit put him in her womb.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Jesus was part human because as a spirit he could not experience the things that humans did and that was a big part of why he came to earth. To learn what their lives were like as another human.
            Another thing, Christ could not have died on the cross if he was not human. He had to feel pain and die and a spirit could not do those things.
            Once he had died on the cross, He became a spirit, but while on earth he was human/God.
            I’m amazed you don’t know that.
            The whole time he was on the earth he experienced the things that people did.
            Mary was not ‘just a vessel’ she was His mother biologically and God’s son as well. But he had to be a human in order to die and bleed and feel the pain at the end. Spirits cannot die like a human, bleed or feel pain.
            Only humans can do those things.

          • Oboehner

            I didn’t ask if he was, I asked if he is.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Then yes he is a spirit now. But when he was on earth he was human too.

          • Oboehner

            So mary was just a vessel – Jesus existed before her, he exists now and he said himself that instead of worshiping (or whatever synonym you choose) mary we are to obey God’s commandments. Sounds cut and dried.

          • Parodyx

            If you’d like to really understand my antipathy towards so many fundamentalist Christians, Oboeher’s post below sums it up perfectly. You are every bit as much a Christian as he is, and he’s being high and mighty and rude and talking down to you.

          • Sharon_at_home

            I do understand it totally. I am totally shocked at the way they speak to people even their sister/brother in faith. I’d heard about it for years, but had not experienced it for myself until I came here. It’s probably the way they were treating someone that got me to post the very first time…
            I am hoping that how I addressed it with them, that they will see that it is God’s Word to behave better than they do. It is a sin, after all, to treat people badly at all. God said He didn’t want that from us, He wanted love, not hate. sigh I can only try.
            Thanks Parodyx for your reply. Blessings!

          • Parodyx

            Where I live, Christians are much better behaved and far more inclined to let the assorted denominations do things as they please. So it’s very shocking to me personally and the reason I stand up to it so strongly.

          • Sharon_at_home

            I’ve always believed that All Christians are like you say your community of Christians. I don’t anymore. It because I came on here TBH. I’ve never seen anyone act like they do here before. It was a real eye-opener as to why LGBT either hate or fear Christians. SMH
            I couldn’t think of how the fundies as you call them, could act like a Christian and instill fear and hate of all Christians into the people they are supposedly showing love to, and helping them to learn the gospel. It makes no sense to me what so ever. It’s not the way I’ve been taught to follow the gospel with at all. I’m still trying to understand it and regularly try to help them understand why I feel that way, but they seem to feel I am not following the way Jesus told us to live, and are telling me that I am lying to people. I follow the bible so I don’t see how I could be lying to anyone, but their superiority seems to feel they are right and of course, anyone who disagrees with them, are wrong. There are a lot of people like that about more than just religious matters.
            Sticking to your beliefs does not have to become an argument. If you have faith, discussing them will not change them.
            Yeah, they are definitely a people to do more discouraging than encouraging people in my way of viewing it. I believe my Church backs it up because they focus on Jesus’ Love and His Salvation and how to get it. The positive about God’s love, not the negative – like he’s sending sinners to hell, but that he loves us and wants us to be good kind people to everyone, and to repent for the things we do wrong according to God’s Word. I think that was a big reason why I felt at home right from the beginning.

          • Parodyx

            You are not in a position to pronounce the teachings as false, as you do not understand them.

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        Worship of Mary is an idol-worship and breaking of the first and the second commandments.

      • Lentenlands

        Judge the system of Roman catholic pagan idolatry by the fruits it produces, just as the Lord instructed. Horded riches, a satanic hierarchical system of nicolaitan lording over laity the Lord says He personally hates, preventing billions from the truth of the Word of the Lord for over a millennia, committing every kind of abomination and perversion, embracing every pagan practice on human history, rampant pedophilia and child sexual abuse, satanism, murder, lies, theft, etc.

        Yep. As I have said, Roman catholicism is a freakshow of pagan idolatry and garbage. It’s amazing that a catholic could actually come to know the Lord despite the best efforts of Rome’s pagan pope, the satanic vatican and Rome’s system of perverted everything. The fact that some do proves that the Lord is good.

        • Parodyx

          Congratulations on the biggest load of paranoid schizophrenic conspiracy theory crap I have ever read here.

        • Sharon_at_home

          Wow!
          Everything you just said is not in the bible, so how do you know it’s specifically the Catholics it called as one of the churches in revolution. They state the Churches not the denomination.
          Actually Catholics often do a lot for the communities they are in that improves life for those people that need it. I believe they are often the ones to open the food kitchens to feed them, and food banks to help them feed themselves and their families. It is not Only Catholics that do these things, but they do produce good fruits by doing any of their charitable deeds.
          Besides, you don’t have to be rude to express your view about anything especially in a place for discussion not a place to demean others. You catch more bees with honey and with vinegar and you won’t have anyone reading your posts that sound hateful, except to attack you back. I guess it’s up to you whether you want to be heard or just post.
          God bless!

    • Sharon_at_home

      Hi Grace, I found the scripture that tells us there is only one mediator between us and God and that is Christ Jesus.
      1 Timothy 2:2-6 Focus on vs. 5
      2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
      3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
      4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
      5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ
      Jesus;
      6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
      I hope this answered one of your questions but I am not sure I’ve been able to answer each one I told you I’d answer. Please, if there are more, let me know and this time I’ll write them down so I can make sure I answer them.

      Blessings Grace!

  • Amos Moses

    over 200 references to “saints” in the scriptures …… NOT ONE of them refers to any of them being dead ………….

  • Reason2012

    A saint is a born again believer in God – not a dead person that gets voted as one by a denomination. We are commanded to live by God’s Word. Read your Bible again and again, friends – any deception you are under because of what any denomination teaches you instead will still be your own fault – they’ll take you down with them.

    • Parodyx

      Christians do not believe those who have passed on are dead, but alive in heaven.

      • Reason2012

        Samuel, a great prophet of God, was “alive in heaven” also, but it was still an abomination for Saul to try communicating with him. Do not try communicating with those who have died here – they are not omniscient, they are not mediators. Only Christ is a mediator – communicate with Him in prayer, no one else.

        • Parodyx

          That’s nonsense. It’s just intercessory prayer, no different than asking a friend or relative to pray for you. Asking Mary or one of the saints to pray for you if you believe them to be in a favored position to do so hurts nothing, and the prayer still goes to the place you directed it – to God.

          • Reason2012

            That’s nonsense. It’s just intercessory prayer, no different than asking a friend or relative to pray for you.

            Trying to talking to someone who has died in the past is not the same as talking to someone who has not died yet.

            the same Asking Mary or one of the saints to pray for you if you believe them to be in a favored position to do so hurts nothing, and the prayer still goes to the place you directed it – to God.

            If Mary was alive here and you could talk to her, then ask away. To pray to her for any reason, even if it’s to “ask” her to pray for you, is hardly the same thing.

            Is Mary omniscient, hearing all prayers at once?

            Are saints omniscient, hearing all prayers at once?

            Prayer is a form of worship – are we to worship those who we’re told are saints?

            Saul tried talking to Samual, who was factually a prophet, and God makes it clear how that’s an abomination as well.

            Try to commune with those who have died at our own risk – we’ve been warned what God says on the matter. Try to pray to others besides God / Christ – it’s God we’ll answer to for doing such things.

          • Parodyx

            Are you saying you buy into the belief of “soul sleep”? That’s very much a cult belief, practiced by Jehovah’s Witnesses and SDAs. Traditional Christianity believes that when you die you instantly go to Heaven or Hell. And if you’re in Heaven at that point in no sense are you dead.

  • Grace

    Saints are role models for Catholics to look up at. They are people who have been in the same situations as we have and they choose God above all else. Little jacinta and Francisco teach us that there is no age limit on becoming a saint. God send all ages to do his will. These apparitions are beautiful and are a source of inspiration to people everywhere. My particular favorite message was to always pray the rosary Faithfully. I love the Rosary, it’s a beautiful prayer.

    • Mike Feehan

      Here is what Deuteronomy 18:11-12 has to say about the Rosary:or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. **Mary is dead and yet you are praying to her…Also, 1 Timothy 2:5 states that there is ONE MEDIATOR between God and man, JESUS, not Mary and not some priest…You say Hail Mary in this prayer ten times as I use to say it myself until I started reading the BIBLE and saw that it was sin to do so…

      • Parodyx

        Give me a break. It’s a simple prayer aid. It’s not required but some like to use it.

        • Oboehner

          Idolatry.

          • Parodyx

            Right because obviously Catholics worship small beads and not Jesus. You really should invest in that dictionary. It won’t hurt you.

          • Oboehner

            Graven images in shrines to false gods (mary, saint whomever), you should really invest in a Bible. It won’t hurt you.

          • Parodyx

            I threw it away long ago. But it said nothing about using a simple prayer aid – faith-based hatred has deceived you yet again.

          • Oboehner

            Luke 11:27As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and blessed are the breasts that nursed You.” 28But He replied, “Blessed RATHER are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”…
            Your hatred of truth has deceived you once again.

          • Parodyx

            If you are promoting hatred towards the mother of Jesus Christ, I’m certain you belong to a cult.

          • Amos Moses

            wow ……… some lies you are now spreading as a “used to was” “catholic” ……..

          • Parodyx

            I was Catholic, nothing I’ve said is a lie.

          • Amos Moses

            WAS is the operative word …………. so not a christian ….. and NOT a catholic ……… and so your opinion is worthless as to this discussion ………. you have no basis in truth ……..

          • Parodyx

            Amos Moses – still telling Christians how they’re wrong and he’s right after all this time. (But somehow is not applying the No True Scotsman fallacy)

          • Amos Moses

            again ……… it is fully authorized by scripture ……. you cannot be saved by false belief in a false Christ ……..

          • Parodyx

            The original Christians used more than scripture, Amos. They used church teachings and sacred traditions too. Why did you stop using those? Under whose authority?

          • Amos Moses

            yeah ….. no they did not ………. and if they did …. they fell into error …. as did the Pharisees …….. so where are these “sacred traditions” …… where are they written down so they may be examined next to the scriptures ………. and who has determined these “traditions” ….

            15:1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
            15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
            15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
            15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
            15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
            15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
            15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
            15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
            15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

            7:2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.
            7:3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
            7:4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
            7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
            7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
            7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
            7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
            7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
            7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
            7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
            7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
            7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

          • Parodyx

            They are recorded. Why did you reject them? Who told you that you could?

          • Amos Moses

            where are they recorded ….. because i have never had any answer to that question ….. WHERE ……….

          • Parodyx

            You don’t get to show up a couple thousand years after the original Christians and tell them they were doing it wrong. How arrogant can you get?

          • Amos Moses

            the “original” christians did it right …… but it depends on which CHURCH you were talking about …….. SEVERAL of the epistles were for the express purpose of telling those churches ……. “NOPE, THAT IS NOT RIGHT ……….. you are not doing it right ….. and in fact …. YOU ARE WAY OUT OF ORTHODOXY ……….” …… so your objection is noted ….. but it has nothing to do with SCRIPTURE …… IN FACT ….. Paul had to tell Peter ….. NOPE, YOU ARE WRONG …… and yes, the exact SAME Peter held up as “pope” ……….

          • Parodyx

            I’m not interested in revisionist history, Amos. The original Christians were Catholics and Orthodox.

          • Amos Moses

            not REVISIONIST history ……….. SCRIPTURE …………….. read 1 Corinthians …… written by PAUL …….. Galatians ….. SCRIPTURE …………..

            2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
            2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
            2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
            2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
            2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
            2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
            2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
            2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
            2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

          • Parodyx

            And what do you think that verse means, Amos?

          • Amos Moses

            false premise …… what i think about it is of no account …… it says what it says ……… but what it is NOT ….. is REVISIONIST history …………. it is scripture …………..

          • Parodyx

            And how does it relate to what we are talking about? Tell me what you think it means.

          • Amos Moses

            it means …. just what you said it was not ……… that the early churches FREQUENTLY fell into apostasy ……. and by definition ….. NOT orthodoxy ……… and it TOTALLY refutes your point ………. in 1 Corinthians …. that church had a leader who had married his fathers wife …… and Paul was REBUKING them for this ………. not my meaning or my thoughts or “feelings” ………. it is what the SCRIPTURES say …………

          • Parodyx

            And where exactly in the scripture you quoted do you see the word CATHOLIC, Amos? Answer: nowhere. And this is the exact point where it stops being about scripture and about YOU. This is the exact point where you being to apply your own prejudices and OPINIONS to your own religion. This is where people are very justified in telling you that you are misusing what you have been taught. Because the fact is it says APOSTATE but does not specify anything more than that. How dishonest.

          • Amos Moses

            the word catholic means universal ….. so what …. it does not use the word trinity ….. so what ….

            5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.
            5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

            not my opinion …… that is apostasy ……. that is not orthodoxy ….. it is falling away ….. and it goes on to say ……

            5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
            5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
            5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
            5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
            5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
            5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

            SO …. we are to judge those who say they are part of the church ……. and if they are found to be acting in a way NOT of orthodoxy ….. and in fact acting in gross sin ….. we are to ……. 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus ….. so yes ….. they were in apostasy and WE as the church …… GET TO JUDGE IT …………

          • Parodyx

            “not my opinion …… that is apostasy ……. that is not orthodoxy ….. it is falling away …..”

            And it still doesn’t say Catholic. So it could be anything.

            “SO …. we are to judge those who say they are part of the church ……. and if they are found to be acting in a way NOT of orthodoxy ….. and in fact acting in gross sin ….. we are to ……. 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that
            the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus ….. so yes ….. they were in apostasy and WE as the church …… GET TO JUDGE IT …………”

            All
            of this amounts to opinion. All of it. You deem their behavior
            incorrect and they probably deem yours to be in correct. Guess what?
            That doesn’t change how they are defined. YOUR OPINION is not something
            that is authoritative, and you never seem to understand that. Would
            you like me to give you a list of all the ways they consider YOU to be
            apostate?

            And by the way, none of this proves anything about the
            Bible renouncing Catholicism. It renounces what you have GUESSED to be
            Catholicism.

          • Amos Moses

            and pray tell why does it need to ………….

          • Amos Moses

            “All of this amounts to opinion. All of it.”

            welll …. okay ….. sure ….. it is GODS opinion ….. making it NOT an opinion ….. but DECLARED TRUTH ………….

          • Parodyx

            Your opinion. Not God’s. You do not speak for God. You are not God.

          • Amos Moses

            nope ….. scripture …… God spoke for Himself through SCRIPTURE …….. and the response of “your opinion” …… is just YOUR opinion ….. and a sign that you 1. have no other response that deals with the truth …. and 2. that you reject truth …… as i have already said ……………

          • Parodyx

            You have nothing but an opinion. Goodbye.

          • Amos Moses

            you are a scared child to run because you are the one without response …… accept the non-response of “its your opinion” ………..

          • Parodyx

            No, there is no more to say. You are a walking breathing example of the No True Scotsman Fallacy and the Dunning-Kruger effect.

          • Amos Moses

            tell us all ….. WHERE is the “church of Rome” in scripture ………………… NOT THERE …… where are the traditions written down so that we may examine them …… NOT THERE …… Schrodinger’s Cat ….. DOES NOT APPLY ….. false argumentation …… NO FACTS …… wussy responses to questions asked …… RUN AWAY LITTLE BOY ………… little b …. little o ….. little y ………..

          • Amos Moses

            pair of dix ….. must be a homosexual rebellion …………… no truth ……….. all you have is lies ……… must be a student of The Peter Principle ………….

          • Parodyx

            Means a lot coming from a guy with no concept of quoting a source honestly and who believes his own opinions come from God.

          • Amos Moses

            again ….. the only argumentation is ….. “it is your opinion” ……….. which any four year old can do …… and the only level of response you seem capable of ………. sad ……….

            you 1. have no other response that deals with the truth …. and 2. that you reject truth …… as i have already said ……………

          • Amos Moses

            again ……. tell us all ….. WHERE is the “church of Rome” in scripture ………………… NOT THERE …… where are the traditions written down so that we may examine them …… NOT THERE …… Schrodinger’s Cat ….. DOES NOT APPLY ….. false argumentation …… NO FACTS …… wussy responses to questions asked …… RUN AWAY LITTLE BOY ………… little b …. little o ….. little y ………..

          • Amos Moses

            run away little boy … run away ….. little b …. little o ….. little y ………..

          • Sharon_at_home

            Amos, so who can decide what is not orthodox in what I say? I follow the bible so it’s not wrong in that way. Nor does God ever say that you can’t approach the sin by telling them of them after they have been told about Salvation. As a matter of fact, that’s what most churches do for the people who come off the street.They don’t welcome them with “you are an awful sinner, and you’ll go to hell for your sins” or even anything like that.

            It is supposed to be with belief in Jesus and Salvation that makes you desire to give up sins. And it is supposed to be decided with free will. Jesus does not make a person believe.

            Can you show me a scripture in the NT that says Jesus uses His power to make people believe beyond what is obvious in the bible? Even in the bible people walked away from Jesus’ teachings. How could they do that if He made them believe?

            Mark 16:15-16
            15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the
            gospel to every creature.
            16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
            believeth not shall be damned.

            Why would he say this if He makes people believe?
            While I have been looking for other scriptures, I found that a lot of them are spoken to the believers. I suggest that the unbelievers probably decided they didn’t want to hear about it and left.

            Another point about Jesus being the one to make people believers. If Jesus wants All to come to Salvation, wouldn’t He just make All people do that? He doesn’t because He wants someone to believe in His love and in His offer of Salvation to be of their free will.

            If someone decides with their free will to not repent for their sins, they need to have people talk to them about their sins and help them to believe and come to Salvation, because there will always be people to convert right to the end of time. The Lord said there would be. He didn’t want us to become weary in doing good and our duty is to teach others about the gospel in a way that encourages them to turn to Jesus… and yes the sins are obviously addressed because you have to repent them with your free will. He will not give salvation to them without it. But repenting your sins must be your personal decision to make, and if they believe God will know because He can see our hearts. He would know who believes and who is being dishonest either with God, or with themselves. I find the ones who truly want Jesus to be their saviour will keep trying until they find the faith and trust and Love to be able to believe in Him and it shows to the Lord in the heart. The other ones just leave knowing they sin and the consequences and using the free will that God gave to each of us.

            Blessings Moses!

          • Amos Moses

            “Amos, so who can decide what is not orthodox in what I say?”

            6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
            6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
            6:4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
            6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

            …….. least esteemed in the church ……….. even them ……..

          • Sharon_at_home

            I have that scripture down as something to ask at Church so understand so I will note that you mentioned it too.
            I will post if I think it’s important, but otherwise if we say it means something different for our religion, I’m going with that.
            Good evening Moses. I’ll be out tonight at a Youth Convention at my Church. But I’ll be back tomorrow. Blessings

          • Amos Moses

            “It renounces what you have GUESSED to be Catholicism.”

            catholicism ….. is renounced by scripture ….. in that the RCC catechism ….. published for all the world to read……… is many times in direct opposition to scripture …… AS GOD HAS DECLARED SCRIPTURE ……………..

          • Parodyx

            You are lying. If Catholicism is expressly renounced in scripture, provide the scripture. And for it to count, it must contain the words CATHOLIC CHURCH. If you can’t do that, you have what you’ve always had…nothing.

          • Amos Moses

            it is renounced by the stated beliefs of the RCC in the catechism being in variation from Gods word ………… so is Buddhism, Islam, Shintoism ….. and on and on …………

          • Parodyx

            You have nothing. Goodbye.

          • Amos Moses

            bye pair of dix ………….

          • Amos Moses

            “If Catholicism is expressly renounced in scripture, provide the scripture. And for it to count, it must contain the words CATHOLIC CHURCH.”

            you apply YOUR RULES to scripture ….. Not Gods ……… you have nothing ……..

          • Sharon_at_home

            Amos he has the right to his opinion whether he is a Christian now or not. He was a Catholic and lived with their doctrines, so why can’t he speak of what he knows regardless of whether he was or is a Catholic?

          • Amos Moses

            he has said he is not ……….. and if he is not ….. then he has no place to judge christians or any church …………. he can say whatever he wants …… but it has no bearing ……….

          • Sharon_at_home

            but if he was a faithful Catholic at one time, maybe he could give us some insight about the Catholic faith. He will still have the knowledge from when he was an earnest believer.
            So I think it would be a benefit to some of us to have his insight when we need it in our discussions.
            I’m still learning (and absorbing) information so if anyone can give me viewpoints I am interested in – like a faith I know only small amounts about.
            If you don’t like or aren’t interested in his posts, why don’t you skip them?
            It gives peace to the Spirit when you aren’t stressed. If you aren’t stressed, you sure sound it.
            Amos most of the world speak like they are judging all the time. He’s not a Christian anymore so he can judge anyone he wants to, in the way of the world. We are supposed to judge to decide if the person is sinning – and if they will sit and listen to the Gospel. Some people are obvious ones that we won’t get through to them.
            We aren’t supposed to be of this world, but we have to co-exist with it. Sometimes the 2 get connected… like when judging.. and both sides must be looked at in case it was not what it looked like, for instance.

          • Amos Moses

            well there is no evidence of any sort of what kind of believer he was ….. and his only demonstrated purpose here is to argue, falsely, and to cast doubt ….. when he has already stated that he now rejects it all anyway …… the fallen away can judge the church all day long ….. and they do ….. but it means nothing to those inside the church ….. his judgments are null and void ……….. we are required to always have an answer …..

            3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness’ sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
            3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
            3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
            3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
            3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
            3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
            3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

          • Sharon_at_home

            He’s not like that at all with me. It must be your approach when you lead him into discussion. He’s very reasonable and nice if you are calm and willing to discuss the things that you differ on. Otherwise why engage him at all? You are welcome to ignore people but it doesn’t have to be like that if you are kinder with your words. Believe me everyone here ( maybe excluding new posters) knows how you feel about particular sins by now. Can you please now encourage them to come to Jesus and Salvation instead of talking like you have been? It won’t change your beliefs unless they aren’t very strong and I know your faith is. Help them understand more than just about their sin. Help them understand the gospel or it will be too late for their souls to be saved. God wants us to bring more people to salvation right up to the last days.

          • Amos Moses

            14:3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them?
            14:4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;
            14:5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.
            14:6 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.
            14:7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:
            14:8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Rosaries do not have graven images on them.
            Admiring someone is not idolatry, whether they are in shrines or not the act of worshiping those graven image (especially of the people who were chosen and directed by God) is what is a sin, and I don’t hear anyone saying that they worship anyone but God. Only that they pray to Jesus first then to Mary if they want to. That’s not worshiping Idols, it’s remembering what they did for God and who they were when they did.
            You could say that they are historically connected to God for that matter.

          • Oboehner

            Matthew 6:7
            – “But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for
            they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.”

            The rosary is “vain repetitions”, and praise to someone other than to God.

            Creating graven images, shrines and bowing to, praying to, and kissing said graven images is idolatry.

            “they pray to… …then to Mary if they want to.”
            John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” There is no reference in scripture saying we are to pray to anyone other than God the Father or God the Son.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Actually there is scripture that says “Jesus is the only mediator between God and man.”
            1 Timothy 2:5
            5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

            Christ Jesus is the only one that you need to confess (or talk about) your sins, and He is the only one that can forgive you your sins. He gives us the hope of Salvation rather than giving us penance, and we will only be punished if we never repent of our sins. (stop doing them) He does, however give us time to choose, and help to give us the ability to look at ourselves and what our sins are. The Lord never forces anything on anyone now. He wants us just to love everyone.

            My Church is Pentecostal and it is the religions belief that if it is not in the bible, it is not Truth. It’s applied to everyone who is Pentecostal. I love my religion because it is not judgemental and they serve Our Lord with the Love and compassion that Jesus showed to the multitudes. We endeavor to shine our light and show people the Love of Jesus by living like Him, and we give God all the Glory in our lives. It’s so totally different than any other religion I’ve ever looked into. Our service is filled with songs of worship and praise, some scriptures from a theme of the week, and a sermon by our Pastor (who is an amazing speaker BTW) about looking at His commandments with the Love that He has for us. About how to live like Jesus. Always with scriptures to back him up. We are about the Wonderful Great Lord not about how bad our sins are beyond emphasizing that sins must be repented to receive our Salvation. It’s a Jamaican Church but you will find once they realize your devotion to God, they will welcome you to the Church without any other thing to consider. I found it was a different culture that we had to adjust to, but that isn’t that hard if you try.

            Blessings Oboehner I hope this helps you with some understanding and will show that I too do question the authority of the Catholic Church to do editing of the Holy Bible when God said in no uncertain terms that the person who does this, will be sentenced to Hell and Damnation. I don’t know why they would want to go against God’s Word.

          • Oboehner

            Truth is all you need.

          • Sharon_at_home

            That’s why my church says: “if it’s not in the scriptures , it is not the Truth. “

          • Oboehner

            How about ALL the scriptures?

          • kenster777

            I do want to interject here concerning some of the discussion concerning God’s word and Catholicism.
            1) Leadership roles.
            The bible states in the New testament There will be Apostles, Prophets, Teachers, bishops and deacons. I corinthians 12:28 & 1 Timothy 3

            The catholic church has the pope, priests, cardinals Reverend and Father. etc.
            Which are not found in the New testament Priest were used in the law as to bring sacrifices to God.

            Now we have a High Priest which gave sacrifice once and for all we don’t need a priest to come to God. Hebrews 10

            The Pope also prays with his head covered which I Corinthians 11:4 says his prayer will be defiled. And said Allah is also the same God worshiped by the Muslims.
            Which may be the start of the one Church system and rise of the antichrist.

            Sometimes it is the little things that distinguish between those that be true speakers for God’s word and not.
            the pope also is supposed to be infallible, please give me chapter and verse.
            Finally any type of idolatry or anything that can be used by another it is good recommendation to stay away from.

            2 Kings 18:4 Follow Hezekiah’s example he destroyed Moses staff because they used it to burn sacrifice to.
            II Timothy 4 Says a minister should reprove, rebuke with all long suffering

            As a minister it says if you see a sin not unto death and turn them away you will cover a multitude of sins.

            Jesus called the Pharisees blind leaders of the blind and those that follow them will also fall in the ditch.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Those are good points. I agree that the Catholic religion has gone against God’s Word in many many ways. The least of which is confession of sin to a priest as well as the penances the priest punishes them with. It’s very clear that you should confess to Jesus only and they changed to priests hearing confession in 1215 AD and they must have known that the bible said that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man. No one needs to know your sins except Jesus.
            I think the Catholic Church doesn’t want the gospel to be understood by their members. Honestly. I have talked to a few Catholics here and they don’t understand Salvation the way Jesus’ explained it, and I have never seen anything that shows the Love Jesus wanted us to show, let alone know that that is what he wanted. All they do is focus on the sins they can know about and make people feel bad for being sinners just like everyone else, instead of the Gospel and bringing people to Jesus. One even told me that God did not allow our free will to choose to believe in Jesus for Salvation. He figured it was all God and not our choice, and won’t reply when I show him the scriptures about it.
            I’ve been saying for a long time that the Catholic Church is not following my God, so I don’t know who they are following. If they were following my God, they would be full of love and compassion and the desire to bring people to Jesus and Salvation to experience the Joy that we, as Christians doing the Lord’s work, feel like we do.
            I do wonder too, if the Pope will end up being the anti-Christ after all with the way he seems to be going against God’s Will so often.
            He almost got it right when he said to accept Homosexuals. If he had gone on to say that they are the lost that Jesus said to bring to Salvation, it would at least be what Jesus said. Saying just “accept LGBT, sounds like they will be accepting homosexuals into their faith without concern about their sin, rather than bringing them in with the intention of teaching them to understand the Gospel and Jesus’ Love and Salvation with the need to repent. Yes we need to be loving and compassionate and treat LGBT people with respect that we want for ourselves. But don’t make it sound like you don’t care about their sin because the Catholic Church is all about the sin as far as I can tell from the posters.

            Thanks for your reply. I love to learn new things!

            God Bless!

          • Sharon_at_home

            Actually Parodyx, I think they need a course in tolerance and on manners. The dictionary is good, but without the others, they will just keep being demeaning to others of different faiths regardless. Maybe you should let them be ignorant because instead of asking about the differences, they are trying to bicker and we really don’t need that ourselves, do we? It is their sin to be disrespectful to you so why should you continue to bash your head against the wall they have erected when you obviously won’t change their attitudes. Give yourself a break and refuse to play their games Parodyx, why should you get frustrated when you could just leave them to their own devices? It’s a much nicer way to live our lives peacefully.
            Bless you Parodyx for trying to help them understand.
            Have a great day!

          • Parodyx

            In my experience, theirs is a very angry faith. It’s not accepting of any beliefs other than their own and it misunderstands left and right the things done by others. I have very little respect for fundamentalism of any stripe because I consider it to be so rigid and unreasonable.

          • Sharon_at_home

            I agree with you but I try to give them understanding because I believe we should so we can discuss things together. If they want to discuss their views, they should allow for their views to be different than others. If they want to stay in the position that “we’re the only ones who are right” then it won’t make for much of a discussion.
            What is the idea behind insisting ‘you’ are right without even listening to another viewpoint? Why try to discuss things to make us understand them, if they won’t listen to others views. Being rude to you is not going to encourage you (or anyone else) to look into their own salvation. It will just make other people hate Christians that don’t act like that.

          • Parodyx

            I am willing to do that too. My experience is that I never get very far with it. I suppose I don’t understand why they don’t see that the Bible is complicated due to the fact that it has been translated and retranslated and so on and the words have to be open to a certain amount of interpretation. People do their best and make their own decisions, but that doesn’t automatically make everyone else wrong.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Parodyx, I agree about the interpretations and that they don’t consider that as they believe beyond the bible.
            My church uses the KJV and all the bibles of my family that I have inherited are all KJV as well.
            I believe that it is the one that is closest to what it was – and I know there is proof to say otherwise – but I’d like to think that if God inspired the bible in the first place, wouldn’t He make sure the ones translated for people around the world to be given the Hope of Salvation, would be kept to mean the same things, even if they say them in different ways. A different language would create a situation where error is a valid concern as is the way it was given from generation to generation, but I believe that God is in Control of everything and directs us to do what he needs done – inspires if you will. It doesn’t have to be only believers that He directs because He loves us all.
            Keep smiling!

        • Mike Feehan

          Give me a break?? The BIBLE is clear as day that you don’t pray to MARY, you pray to GOD…1 Timothy 2:5 states that there is ONE MEDIATOR between God and man, JESUS, not Mary and not some priest…And you say Hail Mary ten times, please do not come on here and tell me that you are praying to God.. One of the many man made traditions which this church falsely teaches…And yes, the words are in the Book of Luke, so what…NOWHERE does it ever say to pray to Mary…And your priests, all of them sinners, some of them flat out homosexuals and some child pedophiles, cannot forgive sins either…ONLY GOD can do that…

          • Parodyx

            They ask Mary to pray for them. It is not the same thing.

          • Mike Feehan

            WHY would you not ask an all knowing God to pray for you?? Also, why would you pray to a dead person??

          • Parodyx

            Catholics DO pray to God. They ALSO ask the saints to pray for them. And there’s nothing wrong with that.

          • Mike Feehan

            WHERE in the BIBLE, book, chapter, and verse/verses do you see anyone praying to anyone other than God? Again, please provide the specific biblical verses…

          • Parodyx

            Don’t ask Catholics for scriptural proof. They are not Bible-only Christians like you. It’s like you’re insisting they play the game by your rules.

          • Mike Feehan

            Well, God’s Word has warnings to those who follow teachings ABOVE AND BEYOND THE BIBLE as your church does which you admit.

            1. Mark 7:13—Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

            2. Matthew 15:9–But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

            3. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

            ***Here is what the BIBLE has to say about adding on to the Word of God as your church does:

            1. Deuteronomy 4:2—Deuteronomy 4:2King James Version (KJV)

            2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

            ***What does “do not add unto the word” which I command you mean to you?? Do you think that that means that some pope or church can come along and just add on all of the man made traditions which your church has done down through the years?

            2. Proverbs 30:6—Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

            ***What does “add thou not unto his words” mean to you? Do you think that that means that some sinner pope or some sinner man can come along and just “add on” all of the man made traditions which your church has done over the years?

            3. 1 Corinthians 4:6—Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.

            ****What does “do not go beyond what is written” mean to you? Do you think that that means that some sinner Pope or some sinner man can come along and just add on all of the man made traditions which your church has done over the years?
            ***Sorry, true Christians rely on the BIBLE and the BIBLE alone…They follow the BIBLE as their only and final authority…You folks on the other hand follow the BIBLE to a certain extent, but then come up with a works based salvation which is totally contrary to Scripture, you actually believe that sinner priests, some of them flaming homosexuals and child pedophiles, can forgive sins when the BIBLE is clear in so many cases that only GOD can forgive sins, you believe that Mary was sinless when in Luke 1:47 it clearly states that she had a Savior…HOW can she have a Savior and yet be sinless? It also states in Romans 3:23, 5:8 and 5:12 that all have sinned….Your church declares someone like me to be “Anathema” if I believe in the biblical definition of FAITH ALONE…Sorry, your church has a “veneer” of Christianity, but also has a ton of flat out PAGANISM…

          • Parodyx

            Catholics don’t go against God’s word. They just don’t take it from a single source the way you have elected to. There’s a lot of value in the traditions and things you threw away.

          • Mike Feehan

            Yes, they do…Didn’t you READ what I just e-mailed to you? Your church NULLIFIES God’s Word by your traditions…A lot of value according to WHO, YOU?? Certainly NOT according to GOD AS otherwise he would not be including these verses…You are trusting in fallible MEN, ALL OF THEM SINNERS…I am trusting in GOD’S WORD AND GOD’S WORD ONLY, HUGE DIFFERENCE…BELOW are ALL of the man made traditions/false teachings of your church: Presbyters first called priests by Lucian……2nd century..

            2… Sacerdotal mass instituted by Cyprian..3rd century

            3… Prayers for the dead—-A.D. 300

            4….Making the sign of the cross—A.D. 300

            5… Wax candles—-A.D. 320

            6….Veneration of angels, dead saints, and images…A.D. 375

            7…Mass became a daily ritual—A.D. 394

            8…Beginning of exaltation of Mary, term “Mother of God” first applied to her by Council of Ephesus….A.D. 431

            9….Priests began to wear special clothing—A.D. 500

            10..Extreme Unction (Rite of Healing)….A.D. 526

            11….The doctrine of purgatory….A.D. 593

            12… Latin used in worship….A.D. 600

            13..Prayers offered to Mary, dead saints and angels…A.D. 600

            14…First man to be proclaimed Pope…(Boniface III) A.D. 610

            15…Kissing the Pope’s feet…..A.D. 709

            16….Temporal power of Popes, conferred by Pepin, King of the Franks…..A.D. 750

            17..Veneration of cross, images, relics authorized…A.D. 786

            18…Holy Water, mixed with pinch of salt, chrism, and blessed by a priest…A.D. 850

            19….Venerations of St. Joseph—A.D. 890

            20…College of Cardinals begun—A.D. 927

            21…Baptism of bells instituted by Pope John X111…A.D. 965

            22…Canonization of dead saints by Pope John XV….A.D. 995

            23…Fasting on Fridays and Lent….A.D. 998

            24….The Mass developed gradually as a sacrifice, attendance made obligatory…A.D. 11TH century…

            25…Celibacy of priests declared….A.D. 1079

            26…Rosary adopted (pagan) by Peter the Hermit….A.D. 1090

            27…The Inquisition instituted by Council of Verona….A.D. 1184

            28….Sale of indulgences….A.D 1190..

            29….Seven Sacraments, defined by Peter Lombard….12th century

            30….Transubstantiation, defined by Innocent III…A.D. 1215..

            31…Auricular confession (Rite of Reconciliation of sins to a priest instead of God, instituted by Innocent III A.D. 1215

            32….Adoration of the wafer (called the Host) decreed by Pope Honorius III….A.D. 1220

            33…Scapular invented by Simon Stock of England…A.D. 1251

            34…The cup forbidden to the laity at communion by the Council of Florence…..A.D. 1439

            35…Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma by the Council of Florence in A.D 1439

            36…***Traditions declared of EQUAL AUTHORITY with the BIBLE by the Council Of Trent…A.D. 1545

            37…Apocryphial books added to the Bible by the Council of Trent….A.D. 1546

            38…Creed of Pope Pius IV imposed as the official creed in place of the original Apostolic Creed….A.D. 1560

            39….Immaculate Conception of Mary (not virgin birth) proclaimed by Pope Pius IX…A.D. 1854

            40….Syllabus of Errors proclaimed by Pope Pius IX, and ratified by the Vatican Council; condemned freedom of religion, conscience, speech, press, and scientific discoveries which are disapproved by the Roman Church; asserted the Pope’s temporal authority over all civil rulers….A.D. 1864..

            41….Infallibility of the Pope in matters of faith and morals claimed by the Vatican Council….A.D. 1870…

            42…Assumption of Mary proclaimed by Pope Pius XII….A.D. 1950…..

          • Parodyx

            No, the sacred traditions don’t nullify scripture. The three sources of authority work in a checks-and-balances system. If you’re going to discount those things as the works of men, you should throw your Bible away too…since it’s very much also man made.

          • Mike Feehan

            No, the BIBLE is God inspired unlike your man made traditions…You have made your choice…You go and follow a bunch of fallible men, ALL of them sinners…God and his WORD are good enough for me…2 Timothy 3:16:All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,…GET to a BIBLE STUDY as you badly need one…

          • Parodyx

            You need to stop telling other people what they should believe. They have a different interpretation and understanding than you do and that doesn’t automatically make them wrong. You make no effort to understand other people, just scream at them about how wrong they are. Unchristian and illogical.

          • Mike Feehan

            You need to start reading the BIBLE for once and stop trusting in fallible men, like this joke Holy Father. It is actually uhchristian to believe fallible men versus God’s Word…You go ahead, keep on believing in man, I WILL trust in GOD AND HIS WORD…

          • Parodyx

            The pope is just the church leader, like YOUR church has a human leader. Catholics follow the Bible just fine. Concentrate on your own sins…lest ye boast.

          • Mike Feehan

            Catholics follow man made traditions JUST FINE..Speaking of sins, praying to Mary is a sin…Now, scoot, get along, go and confess your sins to a pansy, flaming homosexual/child pedophile priest, why don’t you? JESUS is good enough for me…WHY no BIBLES in the pews by the way??

          • Parodyx

            Your bible is a man made tradition.
            Asking Mary to pray for you – not a sin. Never was.
            Why no Bibles in pews? The Lutheran church close to me has no Bibles in pews either. Because you are not supposed to be reading the Bible during a church service, you meditate on the selected lessons for the week with everyone who is gathered and read the Bible during Bible study…obviously.

          • Mike Feehan

            No, the BIBLE is God’s inspired Word…And anyone else besides God to pray for you is IDOLATRY, oh yes it is…You are asking someone who is dead to pray for you, makes a lot of sense…And you say HAIL MARY ten times so please don’t come on here and say that you are not praying to Mary…No, what is obvious is that your church doesn’t have BIBLES in the pews because your church has already lost a TON of members over the years, many of whom are my best friends…Years ago, you didn’t even let folks read the BIBLE because your church falsely taught that only some pansy priest could interpret the Bible…Give me a break, I and TONS of others can read…You are not suppose to be reading the BIBLE during a church service??
            Well, if you were going to a church where the BIBLE was the only authority like I and TONS of others I know do, you would be reading from the Bible…What are you supposed to be doing, focusing on some pansy priest with some uniform on or looking at some picture of Mary?? Again, been there, done that…I and TONS of others have found the TRUTH…

          • Parodyx

            I get it, you don’t want to take the time to understand other religions even when they are a thousand times older and a thousand times more popular than yours.

          • Mike Feehan

            I ONLY care about TRUTH…I could care less what is popular..And true Christianity has been around for 2,000 years…Again, you go hang with the crowd which believes in false man made teachings…I will go hang around with God’s people…So, go ahead, not going to stop you here, KEEP ON KEEPING on in your sin of idolatry…Go pray to Mary all you want…GOD is good enough for me…

          • RWH

            If people bothered to read the early texts, the writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch, a contemporary of the disciples, hammered out the meaning of communion and the role of bishops at a time when the other disciples were still alive. There are other writings that are around as well. People who have done a study of these writings have often returned to the Orthodox Church because they have seen that many of these things were observed right from the beginning.

            Even the early reformers realized this. Wesley, Luther, and Calvin believed in the mystical presence as well as frequent celebration of the Lord’s Supper.

            However, there are still those who think that they are superior because they have wrecked everything that is symbolic and beautiful. Years ago, I showed a group of fundamentalist young people some of the images and films of the Bolsheviks as they pillaged and destroyed churches. They thought that this was a great thing. Never once did it cross their minds that this was an attack on God. Perhaps it was because they were ignorant of the beautiful symbolism of the church. I have taken some of these types to church. Some scoff at the “paganism,” completely unaware of all of the Scriptural references embedded in the liturgy. Then, you get those who actually listen and realize how beautiful the services are and how respectful the people are of the things of God. They aren’t iconoclasts who pull down the cross of Jesus Christ and feel spiritually superior for it. Rather, they parade into church wearing their old, ripped clothing, running around drinking their coffee and pop right in the presence of God, and then look to be entertained.

            Protestants on this list have no clue as to the immense suffering people went through in Russia because of their love for Christ and His Church. They were willing to stand (mind you, not sit) during services that lasted three to five hours, and the spiritual power of these services was immense. They’re not like those who cherry pick and rip Scripture out of context. The writers of the Old Testament knew nothing of what would be the Orthodox Catholic Church, but people on this list pull verses out of context and pretend that these people, who lived hundreds of years before Christ, are addressing the Church of Christ.

            So sit. Be proud that you have your churches without any beauty at all and have nothing to be proud of except your self-righteousness. Go mock the celebration of Christmas and Easter. Pay no nevermind to the important feasts of the church. And take your communion which apparently doesn’t mean much. You preach against taking it unworthily, and then you throw it out in the trash when the service is over. And listen to pastors who have no rhyme nor reason for what they preach except this existential idea that God gave them something.

          • Mike Feehan

            CHRIST and his CHURCH are body of born again believers, NOT THE RC church with all of its false man man traditions…The pastors that I listen to are BOLD, SOLID men of God and they don’t wear funny stupid uniforms as these weak, pansy priests do…By the way, NO NEED for the priesthood anymore as I CAN AND WILL go straight to JESUS, MY GREAT HIGH PRIEST…1` Timothy 2:5—There is ONE MEDIATOR between God and man, JESUS, NOT MARY AND NOT SOME PRIEST….Now, scoot, get along, why don’t you go and pray to a dead person, you know like Mary as you folks just LOVE to do?? Go and confess your sins to some flaming homosexual or pervert..I CAN AND WILL go straight to Jesus…If I listened to your pansy priests, they are going to preach on some a bsolutel garbage such as purgatory or that Mary was sinless or that they, yes they, sinners all of them, some flaming homosexuals, can FORGIVE my sins, WHY would I waste my time doing that????

          • RWH

            Yep, lots of Protestants blather the same pablum that they have been taught in church without ever investigating the facts for themselves. The Thomas Nelson Publishing Company put out the Orthodox study Bible in 1979. Perhaps you should get a copy from your local library and learn something. In it, you will find that the Orthodox believe in the priesthood of all believers, a concept which I don’t think that you understand. You will also find out that the Orthodox believe believe that Christ is the only mediator, and it is clear through several references in the liturgy and other services of the Church. Have you ever thought about the fact that the Triune God indwelt in Mary for nine months. She was the tabernacle of the living God during that time. And you call her a sinner! There are a lot of symbols that refer to Mary in Scripture, but you’re too busy throwing excrement at people who were living examples of how Christians should act. And while you’re making fun of priests, have you thought about the Rev. Jack Schaap, pastor of the world’s largest fundamentalist Sunday School who is now serving time in prison for taking an underage girl across state lines and having sex with her. Jack Hyles, his predecessor, carried on affairs with several women in his church and abused his wife. You want to criticize the servants of the Lord in other churches, look to your own. How do you know that your own pastor doesn’t have something to hide. Fundamentalist churches are known for covering up all sorts of horrible sexual sins.

            So, go ahead and mock those in the Catholic and Orthodox churches. The Church may not be perfect, but we have substance, and we have continued on with our beliefs and traditions from the very beginning. On the other hand, ask the young people in a lot of fundy churches to sing a Fanny Crosby hymn, and chances are they don’t know any. They’ve been just fed those praise and worship songs, most which have Hallmark Greeting card lyrics with no substance. Five minutes later, one can’t even remember what the song was about. How many know the words to “The Old Rugged Cross?” I bet not much because fundies in their pride have thrown out so much that they don’t even know where they came from.

            By the way, how many got saved before Charles Finny discovered the sawdust trail and the invitation at the end of the service and the Romans Road? Read John Bunyan’s “Grace Abounding Chief of Sinners” and you’ll see that even the way to salvation has changed.

            But go ahead. Mock the servants of the Lord. Mock the holy things of God. It’s not going to win you any friends. Years ago, I confronted a woman at an abortion protest. I asked her why, as a Catholic woman, she was joining hands with people that hate her church, think that she worships idols, the Pope is Satan’s agent (the antichrist), and she eats a satanic cookie in church. Expose this type of fundy to the contempt and hatred they have for others, and any type of unified effort falls flat. By the way, prior to Row v Wade in 1973, the Catholics and Orthodox were the only ones on record opposing abortion. The fundies didn’t get on board until it became a good fundraiser.

          • Mike Feehan

            I call her a SINNER because she IS a sinner…She had a SAVIOR and so she was a sinner AND Romans 3:23 states that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, NOT ALL EXCEPT MARY…They haven’t made movies from the behaviors of pastors, but they HAVE made movies out of the tons of homosexual priests in your church who they switched around…I saw the movie Spotlight and saw for myself the corruption and hypocricy on so many levels within this church….I don’t have hatred for you or anyone else…I do have extreme anger for churches which teach false garbage which is not Scriptural and holds people in bondage….WHY would you go and confess your sins to another sinner, quite possibly a flaming homosexual, when the BIBLE states we can and should go right to Jesus, 1 John 1, verse 9, Luke 5:21, Mark 2:5, etc, etc?? I mock false teachers who lead people away from the TRUTH, that is who I mock…Your church teaches a works based salvation falsely teaching that folks can “merit their own” graces….ONCE one has found the TRUTH as I and tons of others that I know who have left your false church, they NEVER go back…

          • RWH

            Have your read the Orthodox Study Bible that I have recommended? For starters, the Orthodox Church is not the Roman Catholic Church. Our priests are married. I’m not about to defend Roman Catholic practices, but I will defend them against the slander of people who have contempt for God’s chosen servants. The average Catholic priest honors his vows. The percentage of bad eggs in every church is most likely about the same, but at least the Catholic Church makes a good attempt to screen out bad apples before they are ordained. I’ve not seen that in fundamentalist churches where just about any idiot can get ordained.

            You have no idea of whom you’re mocking. I have seen a greater amount of spirituality in devout Orthodox people who revere the things of God and don’t go about slandering and mocking others as I have seen many typical fundies do. So, go ahead and mock others. Poke fun at their devotion to God. Maybe you need to learn something about other churches from legitimate sources besides Chick Comic books which libel others. I read his book about the Russian Revolution, and Chick portrays events that show his complete ignorance of history. I have also read his Rivera comics. It’s complete slander, and the Archdiocese of Madrid has documented that the guy was never a priest in the Roman Catholic Church. Fundies will publish anything just as long as it mocks Catholics and the Orthodox.

            As far as meriting one’s own graces, you’re far off track. But that’s okay. You’re so consumed in hate that nothing I saw will change your mind. Should you make it into heaven inasmuch as you think that bearing false witness is a virtue, you can apologize to those whom you have slandered here on earth.

          • Mike Feehan

            There should NOT even be a priesthood as JESUS is my great High priest..These priests are taking on responsibilities that CHRIST never game them..The priesthood was done away with via the New Covenant, no need for me or anyone else to go to some priest as a mediator..1 Timothy 2:5 states that there is ONE MEDIATOR between God and man, JESUS, not some priest…The Catholic Church makes a good attempt at screening out bad apples?? Go and see the movie Spotlight where they transferred pedophile priests from parish to parish and then come on here and tell me that they do a good job of screening their candidates…I live near Chicago and they have paid out millions to cover child pedophile cases not only here, but in LA, Pennsylvania, New York, and other places..Yeah, some screening process that they have…And before you go out criticizing ME, calling me hateful, get a CLUE about what you are talking about…You have LITTLE TO NO CLUE of who I am so knock it off..I go witnessing every single Sunday with others from my church presenting the TRUE GOSPEL to them in an attempt to save their souls from hell..Yeah, real “hateful” guy I am, right?? I know that I am going to heaven because I have accepted God’s free gift via Ephesians 2:8 and 9…No, calling a spade a spade as it relates to the fact that there is no need for a priesthood is not hateful at all….Oh, and you told me that I was far off track as it pertains to “meriting graces”…Really? CC 2027: 2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can *****merit for ourselves and for others all the graces***** needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods. CC 2010–2010=****Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification…Sorry, pal, I am dead on right when it comes to this church’s tons of false teachings…And NO, I DO NOT need to go some sinner, some pansy to confess my sins…WHY would I go to another pansy sinner when I can go to a sinless Jesus???

          • RWH

            In your hate-filled message, you fail to observe two things. First, the Catholic Church has pretty much cleaned up its act. Secondly, you want to criticize, look at the abuse that has taken place in so-called children’s home run by the fundamentalist. For example, people have come forward with horror stories of the abuse that kids suffered in Lester Roloff’s children’s homes. The Hepzabah House in Indiana is another place where kids were abused. Charity begins at the home.

            Secondly, your diatribe against Catholic priests is also a diatribe against the concept of ordained clergy. Apparently, you don’t believe that people are called by God to lead the church. You are so hate filled that you don’t realize that you are shooting yourself in the foot.

            Take some time to read those documents produced by the first century church. St. Ignatius of Antioch spells out the role of the bishop at a time when all twelve disciples were still alive. They apparently didn’t disagree with anything he said. You should also discover that the concept of the Divine Liturgy also existed in the early church. Early Christians would be horrified to see some of the garbage that passes for Protestant fundamentalism today. A lot of what the church is was firmly in place even before Constantine came along. However, you can continue believing the trash put out by some of these yellow-press fundys who think that it is spiritual to trash anything that is sacred. But you can go ahead and feel spiritual by throwing what is holy into the garbage bin.

            But you can continue to believe in the do-it-yourself version of Christianity where people dismiss the idea that the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. By the way, if you look at the experience that Isaiah and Ezekiel had when taken to heaven, they are describing choreographed liturgical worship before the Throne of God.

          • Mike Feehan

            The UNIVERSAL CHURCH is the pillar and ground of truth, NOT the Roman Catholic Church with all of its false man made traditions, such as purgatory, indulgences, infant baptism making one a child of God, the priesthood, calling priests father, etc, etc…Yes, bishops are in the BIBLE, priests are not, not in the New Testament…They were in the OT, but they were phased out via the New Covenant…Do it yourself version of Christianity?? No, I attend a BIBLE BASED church where the BIBLE is the final and only authority…I don’t have to sit there and obey some man made rules which God had pretty much nothing to do with, no I do not……I’m not here to say that all protestant churches are ok, but what I do KNOW is that what the RC church teaches is false doctrine…Just look at what they have ADDED ON to the Word of God over the years: ***NOTICE how these things were added on by MEN, NOT BY GOD…Heck, the fact that this church requires these priests to be single, #25 below, most likely contributed to not only their homosexual tendencies as well as their child pedophile tendencies, but it is ALSO UNSCRIPTURAL AS THE APOSTLE PAUL speaks against this in 1 Timothy 4:3—They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.***Wow, FORBIDDING TO MARRY…I WONDER, JUST WONDER who does that….

            Presbyters first called priests by Lucian……2nd century..

            2… Sacerdotal mass instituted by Cyprian..3rd century

            3… Prayers for the dead—-A.D. 300

            4….Making the sign of the cross—A.D. 300

            5… Wax candles—-A.D. 320

            6….Veneration of angels, dead saints, and images…A.D. 375

            7…Mass became a daily ritual—A.D. 394

            8…Beginning of exaltation of Mary, term “Mother of God” first applied to her by Council of Ephesus….A.D. 431

            9….*****Priests began to wear special clothing—A.D. 500*****

            10..Extreme Unction (Rite of Healing)….A.D. 526

            11….The doctrine of purgatory….A.D. 593

            12… Latin used in worship….A.D. 600

            13..Prayers offered to Mary, dead saints and angels…A.D. 600

            14…First man to be proclaimed Pope…(Boniface III) A.D. 610

            15…Kissing the Pope’s feet…..A.D. 709

            16….Temporal power of Popes, conferred by Pepin, King of the Franks…..A.D. 750

            17..Veneration of cross, images, relics authorized…A.D. 786

            18…Holy Water, mixed with pinch of salt, chrism, and blessed by a priest…A.D. 850

            19….Venerations of St. Joseph—A.D. 890

            20…College of Cardinals begun—A.D. 927

            21…Baptism of bells instituted by Pope John X111…A.D. 965

            22…Canonization of dead saints by Pope John XV….A.D. 995

            23…Fasting on Fridays and Lent….A.D. 998

            24….The Mass developed gradually as a sacrifice, attendance made obligatory…A.D. 11TH century…

            25…******Celibacy of priests declared….A.D. 1079*****

            26…Rosary adopted (pagan) by Peter the Hermit….A.D. 1090

            27…The Inquisition instituted by Council of Verona….A.D. 1184

            28….Sale of indulgences….A.D 1190..

            29….Seven Sacraments, defined by Peter Lombard….12th century

            30….Transubstantiation, defined by Innocent III…A.D. 1215..

            31…Auricular confession (Rite of Reconciliation of sins to a priest instead of God, instituted by Innocent III A.D. 1215

            32….Adoration of the wafer (called the Host) decreed by Pope Honorius III….A.D. 1220

            33…Scapular invented by Simon Stock of England…A.D. 1251

            34…The cup forbidden to the laity at communion by the Council of Florence…..A.D. 1439

            35…Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma by the Council of Florence in A.D 1439

            36…***Traditions declared of EQUAL AUTHORITY with the BIBLE by the Council Of Trent…A.D. 1545

            37…Apocryphial books added to the Bible by the Council of Trent….A.D. 1546

            38…Creed of Pope Pius IV imposed as the official creed in place of the original Apostolic Creed….A.D. 1560

            39….Immaculate Conception of Mary (not virgin birth) proclaimed by Pope Pius IX…A.D. 1854

            40….Syllabus of Errors proclaimed by Pope Pius IX, and ratified by the Vatican Council; condemned freedom of religion, conscience, speech, press, and scientific discoveries which are disapproved by the Roman Church; asserted the Pope’s temporal authority over all civil rulers….A.D. 1864..

            41….Infallibility of the Pope in matters of faith and morals claimed by the Vatican Council….A.D. 1870…

            42…Assumption of Mary proclaimed by Pope Pius XII….A.D. 1950…..

          • RWH

            Talking with you is akin to throwing pearls before the feet of swine. They don’t appreciate the pearls, and they’ll trample over you. You’re not interested in doing some reading documents produced in the first century while the disciples were still alive, documents that delineate the practice of the early Christians. You’re just interested in dispensing hate. For example, if you just stopped a minute to look at what you’re saying, you would discover that fasting is a very Scriptural practice. What do you think that Christ did during those forty days in the desert?

            Just stop the hate. I’m not interested in giving you anymore platform to spew your venom.

          • Mike Feehan

            You have NO CLUE of who I am..I trust in the BIBLE and the BIBLE alone and you consider me hateful because I and MANY OTHERS question this church’s heretical practices…Why don’t you quit defending false teachings?? You go and witness every Sunday in an attempt to get folks out of hell?? I didn’t think so…Why don’t you go and confess your sins to a sinner priest, JESUS is good enough for me…

          • RWH

            I know exactly what you are. You have got the same mindset as the Taliban and Isis. Why don’t you join them? You can go to the Holy Land and tear down the Church of the Nativity, The church built over Jacob’s Well, and the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. You’ll come away with a spiritual high, thinking that God loves you more than us poor slobs.

            Your type thinks that tearing others down and what they hold sacred is your god-given mission in life. I know exactly what you are. And it is repulsive.

          • Mike Feehan

            You consider it “tearing down others” when one as I have done calls out false teaching…What I consider REPULSIVE is for these individuals to ACTUALLY think that they can forgive SINS when JESUS never gave them that authority, but maybe that’s just me…Now, go and confess your sins to a priest as I have bigger fish to fry than to attempt to convince you and others of their heretical teachings…WHAT is your fascination with a heretical false teaching organization is my question?? I don’t care how pure some of these priests may be…They are taking on roles that JESUS never assigned to them…I am perfectly happy at my BIBLE BASED church with a bunch of born again believers..One place that I will NEVER, EVER go again is the RC church with all of its false teachings, you can bank on that……You have no idea of who I am, little to no clue so drop the ridiculous assumptions…

          • RWH

            If you had even bothered to think about what I have written, you would have discovered that I am an Orthodox Christian, not a Roman Catholic. There is a huge difference. The Orthodox have had hundreds of years hating the Catholics before Martin Luther came along.

            However, I know your type. You go back to your church and feel that God loves you more than the rest of us. If the other people in your church are like you, you’re probably a miserable bunch. Perhaps that is a good thing. Your negativity repels people, and they will come running as fast as they can to get away from you and your brood of vipers.

          • Mike Feehan

            Good, you are an Orthodox Christian, GOOD FOR YOU…All I know is that the RC church has a TON of false teachings, that I know…Now, if your church doesn’t have the TON of false teachings that the RC church has, again, congrats…No, all Martin Luther did was expose the RC church for all of its falsehoods, its TON of false teachings, that is all Martin Luther did. I have a TON of friends because what you call negativity other folks call GUTS…I have the GUTS to expose the false teachings of the RC church without regards to what you or anyone else thinks so ONCE AGAIN, you are flat out wrong…Folks don’t run away from me, they actually really enjoy my company…The priesthood is STILL not biblical in the manner that the RC church does it AND I do NOT need some priest to go and confess my sins to either…My negatively repels people, how CLUELESS can one be?

          • Sharon_at_home

            What book do the ‘code’ CC 2010:2010
            Also, would you please tell me what your religion is? Is it just called Orthodox? I’m still learning and ask questions when I need to.
            God Bless!

          • Mike Feehan

            They come out of the Catechism which has all kinds of contradictions in, written by fallible MEN, as compared to Scripture…These are two of the ones which absolutely contradict Ephesians 2:8 and 9, Romans 4:5 and Romans 11:6…NOONE can earn or merit Grace…Grace is a free gift. No, I am a CHRISTIAN…I was a Catholic until I started reading the BIBLE and saw all of the false teachings within this church…Good luck to you…God bless..

          • Sharon_at_home

            Mike that is wonderful. You retained your faith even though you lost your respect of your Church/ religion. Good for you for standing up for Jesus. I’ve been trying to get other Catholics to read the bible with more understanding when they read the gospel and see that what they’ve been taught often contradicts what Jesus wanted us to be like.
            The Catholic religion has been something I was aware of being disliked by many, but I have never seen it myself. Wow. I’m “blown” away by it.
            Thanks for the information. Now I can recognize it if I see it in posts.
            God bless you Mike!

          • Sharon_at_home

            Do you understand that just because You don’t agree with another religion, it doesn’t mean that one is right and one is wrong. The Catholic bible also has, I think it is, 7 more books than the KJV because other religious heads said they didn’t feel they were written in the same way that the God-inspired chapters. The Catholics didn’t agree so they use them and others don’t. There are many differences between Catholics and other religions, not just that one.
            Also, Jesus wants All of us to come to Salvation and if the Catholics believe differently about some things they still are about the Salvation Jesus offers us. So some might say you are being intolerant about the religion’s beliefs even though they direct their members to the same purpose. So as long as that is the goal, isn’t that what is important, and that we should leave some things to God to judge because our thoughts are not as high as His are. We should really leave other religions to do what they do, and be faithful to what we believe in our chosen religions. It doesn’t matter to us as long as we are being faithful, if they are doing it wrong, only because God is the final judge and it is only up to Him to change something that is going to create problems that take away His salvation from any of his people, and it’s up to Him to judge righteously about the sins people do. We are supposed to ‘judge’ about a sin, and discuss the sin and turn them to Salvation, and that is the extent of our ability to judge others. After that it is up to God.

  • Lentenlands

    Roman Catholicism is such a freakshow of pagan idolatry and garbage. It’s amazing people get saved and come to know Christ as Lord and Saviour despite the best efforts of Rome’s pagan pope, the satanic vatican and Rome’s system of perverted everything.

    • Parodyx

      Wow, that’s a lot of hatred for your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

      • Oboehner

        I would have to say Lentenlands is correct.

        “On August 24, 1527, Roman Catholics in France, by prearranged plan, under Jesuit influence, murdered 70,000 Protestants within the space of two months. The Pope rejoiced when he heard the news of the successful outcome.”-Western Watchman, Nov.21, 1912 (Catholic) – now THAT”S hatred!

        • Parodyx

          No, you are both spouting intolerance towards your fellow Christians. And please don’t waste anyone’s time with things that took place when the church was a ruling body, please.

          • Oboehner

            No comment on the RCC killing Christians? catholics are mary worshipers, not Christians.

          • Parodyx

            Incorrect, I was Catholic many years. They respected Mary as you refuse to do, held Bible studies and worshipped the triune God. Don’t just take my word for it – look it up in the dictionary. Oh, yes, you don’t have one.

          • Sharon_at_home

            We don’t refuse to respect Mary, we just don’t go beyond respecting her to the point of prayer. We respect her for being God chosen to bear His son, but it is her son that we turn to for our prayer requests.
            It’s when I read of believing that Mary will intercede for you with Jesus, that I don’t understand because the bible says we can and should go to Jesus, and that we need no one else to go to in prayer.
            I don’t know why Catholics don’t understand that from the NT. Can you help me to understand it? Or are the articles I’ve read been wrong about Catholics praying to Mary to pray to Jesus for you? It’s truly confusing, but if that’s what the religion believes, who am I to say it’s right or wrong other than pointing out what the bible says. God is the final judge and I believe if He felt this wrong it will be brought up on Judgment Day. It’s all God’s decisions not ours.

          • Parodyx

            I understand and respect the position you take, where I take issue is with others electing to do so because they have a different understanding than yourself. I was Catholic and I prayed to Jesus. My understanding at that time was I could also ask Mary to pray on my behalf. I don’t recall whether I ever did but certainly found no issue with other people doing so.

            This forum is unfortunately full of people who will tell you that if you do X you are not a Christian and will go to hell. That’s recklessly intolerant and I don’t respect it.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Oh that’s totally different to what I thought! I guess some of us have the wrong impression about the whole “pray to Mary” thing. It’s doing the right thing if the prayer first goes to Jesus.
            No I don’t respect it either and I’m hoping that people will calm with the hate and discuss rather than throw stones. Of course, it’s up to each person, but hopefully manners take over and help me.
            I’ve answered 2 other posts from you.
            You have a great day, Parodyx! Blessings!

          • Oboehner

            Respect her for obeying God? Many did that even to the point of death – I don’t see people bowing to and kissing the feet of their graven images. Don’t just take my word for it – look it up in the Bible. Oh, yes, you don’t have one.

          • Parodyx

            Obeying God – how? Is there some manual you have somewhere that tells you to deny her the same respect you’d give your own mother?

            Funny, I don’t see people bowing and kissing the feet of graven images, either. Either you’re lying, or mistaken, misunderstand what’s going on, or a convenient combination of all three. Yeah, let’s go with that.

          • Oboehner

            Trollin’, trollin’, trollin’.

          • Parodyx

            Is this your standard line now that means you have no answer?

          • Oboehner

            Pointing out the obvious.

          • Parodyx

            If I was trolling I wouldn’t be correcting your errors.

          • Oboehner

            See, trolling again.

          • Parodyx

            I can lead a horse to water, but apparently nobody can make you drink.

          • Oboehner

            Better find that water first.

          • Parodyx

            Better open your eyes and ears then. You won’t find it if you willfully ignore it.

          • Oboehner

            Better find that water first.

          • Oboehner

            No comment on the RCC killing Christians?

          • Parodyx

            It wasn’t the RCC, it was the governing body.

          • Oboehner

            Wrong. Trollin’, trollin’, trollin’.

          • Parodyx

            Right. Corruption occurs when you mix church and state, and that is what took place.

          • Oboehner

            Ah, no. Beside that we have a mix of secular humanism and state now.

          • Parodyx

            No, if we did people like Kim Davis would be getting away with hate crimes.

          • Oboehner

            Or the two rump rangers trying to trample her constitutional rights.

          • Parodyx

            Her constitutional rights don’t allow her to break the laws put in place by the county, whom she works for. She doesn’t work in a church.

          • Oboehner

            Which laws exactly? I can quote the First Amendment, what specifics do you have?

          • Parodyx

            You’ve already been given excellent legal answers by actual lawyers here, I’m not going to dredge them up for you to read all over again. You have stated that you think that court rulings only affect the parties in the case before them at that very moment (hint: you’re wrong), and you’ve said you don’t read any prominent lawyers’ articles, any law reviews, etc. When cornered, you default to “the Constitution”. So it’s just game playing for you. I’ve done enough of that already, thank you.

          • Oboehner

            Actual lawyers who apparently lack a grasp of the Constitution – not my problem.

            “You have stated that you think that court rulings only affect the parties in the case before them at that very moment (hint: you’re wrong),” Prove it, I won’t hold my breath, ROFL!!
            (Hint: the Constitution is the RULE of law, not some usurping judiciary)

          • Amos Moses

            this coming from a non-christian and probably a non-catholic ………. a used to was ………

          • Parodyx

            As usual Amos you know nothing about me and yet are entirely prepared to talk at length.

          • Amos Moses

            you said you WAS a catholic ………. so i guess i am right …… and you are a liar ………..

          • Parodyx

            Yes, I was. So what? I didn’t leave it because I was anti-Catholic. I left it because I was no longer Christian.

          • Amos Moses

            so again ….. you have no basis in truth ………… and you have only your opinion ….. which is worthless ………..

          • Parodyx

            Just because I leave a faith-based system doesn’t mean I don’t understand truth. I understand it far better than you do.

          • Amos Moses

            yes …. it does mean that … it means you have rejected the truth …….. and it is quite evident ……..

          • Parodyx

            You have no idea. Not the faintest.

          • Amos Moses

            i read what you write …. so either you reject truth ….. and i know by what you write …… OR ….. you have been writing LIES ….. and that is evidence that you REJECT THE TRUTH …. and it is OBVIOUS for all to see and read …………..

          • Parodyx

            Amos, I am tired of you. Live your life the way you want to and stop telling others how to live theirs.

          • Amos Moses

            i have not told anyone how to live their life ….. so another of your lies ……… care to try for some more ………

          • Sharon_at_home

            Truth is something each person has a personal belief in, isn’t it? It doesn’t mean that one is wrong and one right, it means that it is a personal thing and can be expressed that way.

            I think you did the right thing to leave it if you felt that way. Too bad more people wouldn’t take that stand.
            Do you still believe in Jesus?

          • Sharon_at_home

            He’s right no matter his views on religion. It is intolerance and should not be an action that Christians should be towards anyone, let alone other Christians. Each of us have a right to our personal beliefs and no one should put them down for it. After all, Jesus preached about tolerance of others (by the command that we treat people the way we want to be treated).

          • Amos Moses

            Sharon ……. truth is intolerance ……. intolerance to lies ……. intolerance to sin ……. intolerance of the rebellious sinner ………. cant change that ….. and if you do …… then you abandon the GOSPEL ………. Jesus NEVER preached “tolerance” …… if He did ….. then show the where He preached it ……. for your consideration ………… Christ speaking ………. in Matthew ……..

            Matthew
            12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
            12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
            12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
            12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
            12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
            12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

            Matthew
            23:19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
            23:20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
            23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
            23:22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
            23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
            23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
            23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
            23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
            23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.
            23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
            23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
            23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
            23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
            23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
            23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
            23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
            23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
            23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
            23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chicken under her wings, and ye would not!
            23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
            23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Thank you Moses… I’ll do my best to cover what I can. please bear with me as I am familiar with a fair amount of the scriptures and have read the bible and especially the Gospel, but I don’t always remember what book they are in or of course the verse. But! I do have bible studies and Sunday School textbooks to look through. For now I want to straighten out something.
            I do not by any means believe that the sinner shouldn’t know the seriousness of their sin, and it’s connection to their Salvation. It wouldn’t be the truth. I am trying to walk following Jesus and Shining my light where ever I go. I can’t lie. TBH I’ve tried to not lie all my life, but some things are harder to tell the truth about, Like “Do you like my new hairstyle?” do I lie and say “It’s lovely.” when I truly think “Oh my she looks like she has a bowl on her head.” Yeah, I lie. and I pray for forgiveness when I need to. I don’t do sins knowing I can pray regularly – unless a lot of women have new hairstyles. Haha

            All I am saying is that people are not likely to come to Jesus with the hatred that is shown by being intolerant I guess. My Church knew nothing about my sins and have never pressed me to tell them what they were. As a matter of fact, I mentioned that I had to give up smoking when I’d just started and God gave me help. He didn’t even know I ever smoked, let alone that I gave it up and no one knew except my husband.

            If you did not know a person was gay, and they came to your church, would you confront them as if they were major sinners when we are all sinners and all sins are equal in Jesus’ eyes. No you’d be nice and kind and welcome a person who wants to know about Jesus, right? And the person would stay to hear the gospel, including what it says on homosexuality and what to do about sin so that you have the hope of Salvation. If they truly believe at that time, they will repent their biggest sin.
            So why do Christians have to treat people differently when they know their sin?
            Tolerance isn’t necessarily something said; it is a verb. If Jesus showed tolerance to the people, it was teaching His followers tolerance. That’s how I taught my children tolerance (without knowing Jesus first). It’s the way people learned from their parents from generation. Some things we talk about to teach, but there is a variety of behaviours we learn from others. For example children often try to emulate one of their parents by dressing up like them, maybe putting a mustache, or put on Mama’s earrings and they use the things they have seen their parent do, when the children are imitating them. They often do mama on the phone and come out with an expression mama uses that showed she didn’t take care about where the kids were when she was on the phone. It’s the same when (traditionally) a father swears without thinking about it in front of the child, they often say that word almost immediately upon getting home. Heck, sometimes it is said all the way home with Dad trying to get them to stop, and imagining what his wife will do when the kid says those words.

            I’ve never been in a position where I knew another persons sin. I’ll tell you what I would do: I don’t ‘tolerate’ people’s sins, I would acknowledge it, then put it aside until the person has had time to listen to the Gospel and desire Jesus/God more than committing sins and will repent. It’s a love of God that will make someone give up something that is a big deal in their lives, like drinking or gambling. It has to be desired by the person. By treating homosexuals badly it does not show Jesus’ love to them. Jesus wanted us to love each other and I don’t believe that the way you get other people angry is going to get them interested in Christ. And I believe that love encompasses a lot of things.
            The only church I know of is the Catholic church that makes you go to a priest to speak of your sins and do penance for them. Other than them, I guess more churches rely on Jesus telling us that we no longer needed to go anywhere but Jesus to talk about our sins. If you talk about your sins, it is by your own choice, and not an instruction from anyone.

            Your request for scriptures:
            Will you accept a quote from the Apostle Paul?
            This scripture describes tolerance. According to a bible search the word tolerance is not used in the bible.

            1 Peter 3:8-9 KJV
            8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
            9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise
            blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a
            blessing.

            or Galatians 5:22-23 KJV
            22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness,
            goodness, faith,
            23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

            TBH Just that He wants us to “love one another” and tolerance is a part of love. If you love someone you might have to tolerate some things you don’t like. Yes?

            Do I look for more Moses? I will if you want me to. I’m not always that great at picking out pertinent scriptures, but I do try. Let me know, Ok?

            I certainly am not saying this to change the way we discuss things together, but it is with great tolerance that you use when you deal with me. You are much kinder than you are to most other posters and those who disagree with you as well. I appreciate it Moses Very much.

            But I think it is a good example of tolerance, and we do discuss sin often.

            What do you think? Is your kindness towards me a kind of tolerance?
            Have a

            Blessed Day Moses.

          • Amos Moses

            “All I am saying is that people are not likely to come to Jesus with the hatred that is shown by being intolerant I guess. ”

            again ….. it is not the presentation …. it is what is being presented …… Christ is the stumbling block ……

            1Cor 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

            Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

            they want to be friends of the world ….. and this is what halts them …………

            Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

          • Amos Moses

            just curious ….. what kind of church do you attend ….. you do not need to answer if you do not want to ….

          • Sharon_at_home

            I replied to this in another reply but whatever. I am Apostolic

          • Amos Moses

            thnx

          • Amos Moses

            “1 Peter 3:8-9 KJV
            8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
            9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise
            blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a
            blessing.
            or Galatians 5:22-23 KJV
            22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness,
            goodness, faith,
            23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.”

            those are good verses ….. i have no problem with them …… but what is “love” if does not confront the truth of what others tell us about themselves ….. and in their pride … that is what many unsaved come here to do …… to wave their pride in our faces ….. i care not what their sins are …… i never ask …… but i will always speak to the fact that sin is sin and it is always sin ………… and i will point out the truth and i will point out their error …. as that is the loving thing to do ……. now they may reject that ….. its on them … not on me …. and i do this for the love of Christ ….. not the love of men ………….. we are told that they hated Christ without a cause ….. and because we talk about that ….. they will hate us also ….. without a cause ….. no matter how we present the truth …… they are at enmity to it ……………………

          • Sharon_at_home

            Didn’t I say that I would talk to them about their sin first?
            I think the bigger thing is Jesus’ Salvation and repentance comes from knowing Jesus and about Salvation. They will repent on their own if their belief continues on to loving God enough to give up and repent a sin.
            I know it is an expression of love to tell others to repent. I do know some things but I’ve also been told that.
            Do you really think that
            1. Demeaning someone for being a sinner and threatening them with Hell will do anything to convince them to come to Jesus? Or that it sounds like it is with love the way you put it? Do you threaten your friends and family with Hell, because they are sinners too.
            2. People often say they “don’t believe these people will ever give up their sins”.
            There is NO way to determine that no matter what their life is today. Only God knows and He’s not telling. Every single person on the earth may some day be turned by God. He wants us all with him. And He certainly doesn’t want us to stop loving each other and teaching the Gospel, in hopes that others will turn to Jesus and Salvation.

            I don’t understand either of those points. I can’t see how they could ever win some one to Jesus. Can you help me with that? Or is it just that your religion does not look at Jesus and see Love?

          • Amos Moses

            “1. Demeaning someone for being a sinner and threatening them with Hell will do anything to convince them to come to Jesus? Or that it sounds like it is with love the way you put it? Do you threaten your friends and family with Hell, because they are sinners too.”

            where did i ever do that …….. i did not …. i have not ……… if i did then show me …. my comments are wide open …..

            “I can’t see how they could ever win some one to Jesus. Can you help me with that?”

            we do not win anything ….. we are not even in the race ….. that would be trying to share God/Christs glory ….. and He will not share that with anyone …… not even a saved sinner ….. all glory goes to God for salvation …….

            Isaiah
            42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
            42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
            42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

            when we elevate yourselves as to having any part in salvation …… that is an idol, ourselves is the idol, and God will not share His glory in that graven image ………

          • Sharon_at_home

            Then why did Jesus tell us that as disciples we are to continue to spread the gospel to the world? I am not elevating myself because it’s in the scriptures. Would you like me to find it?
            I also do all I do in Jesus’ name.
            Why would I do something that is said to not do in the bible when I believe in it being the truth? Do you not believe me that I feel like that?
            We are not to aid and abet in other people’s sins on purpose. If we do we repent when we realize it, right? I have never aided and abetted anything that I know of since I was re-born and my sins were washed away. I was baptized as an adult because it was pointed out to my that Jesus only baptized adults not children. He blesses them only. A person should be aware of what they are committing to before they are baptized in water. In our belief. (bible says so)
            I’ve been looking for a scripture that says that I should not tell people about salvation without knowing their sins first. I haven’t been able to find one. I have looked as best I can.
            I’d welcome any scriptures any one can give me in the KJV that specifically says I have to know the person’s sins, before I can teach them Salvation.

          • Amos Moses

            “I’ve been looking for a scripture that says that I should not tell people about salvation without knowing their sins first”

            i never said that …. scripture does not say that ……….

            “Then why did Jesus tell us that as disciples we are to continue to spread the gospel to the world? I am not elevating myself because it’s in the scriptures”

            when you say things like ” I can’t see how they could ever win some one to Jesus.” …. that is saying we have a part in salvation …… we do not …. “Then why did Jesus tell us that as disciples we are to continue to spread the gospel to the world?” …. that is what i said …. our only job, our duty, is to speak the truth and the scriptures ….. we are not even in the race to “win” anything or anybody ….. that is Christs work …..

            “I’d welcome any scriptures any one can give me in the KJV that specifically says I have to know the person’s sins, before I can teach them Salvation.”

            again …. what was the order it was given to us …. law first or gospel first …… if you desire to create false converts …… then do it your way and not Gods way ……….. without the law there is no conviction ……. without the gospel there is no salvation ……. but the gospel does not convict ….. and the law does not save ……………. we were given the law first to convict us of our fallen nature and sin …… then we were given the gospel …… if the gospel saves ….. and that is all you know ….. and not what you are saved from ……. then we waste our time and we mishandle Gods word ………….

          • Sharon_at_home

            I’d never want to create false converts. Every church leaves people to their sins, expecting them to learn the Gospel, believe in Jesus and Salvation, and repent their sins. They don’t usually even ask about what your sins are, they just make sure they are aware of the sins we often do, and the sins people can do without thinking about it in the way the bible looks at it, so they can look at themselves and see what they need to walk more like Jesus. (He must increase, I must decrease).
            What if you didn’t know the sins people were doing?
            Would you say basically, that “all sins are wrong and you will go to hell if you don’t repent and be saved.” So they should go to a church and find Jesus and eventually be saved through knowing the gospel because it helps people believe and Jesus told us he did not want the unwilling to come to him. So if he was instilling more than a direction into us, why would He say that? Even what he told his disciples was supposed to apply to those of us that read the bible with help to understand.
            I see telling them – as to the law, which means it’s a Hebrew law, not a command from Jesus – as mostly a preacher’s job than the Saints, as we should be focusing on leading them to Jesus to be saved.
            I have to find that scripture. I am really busy until Saturday and I’ll only be on and off the internet so I can’t guarantee anything until then. Sorry.
            I will get back to you, I’ve written it down with some others I need to look up.
            Thanks for the discussion Moses. I always enjoy it and often learn something. God bless!

          • Amos Moses

            well thats good that you want true conversion ……. but no … every church does not do that and if they are, they are not carrying out their biblical mandate to administer church discipline ……. it is not supposed to be a witch hunt for sin …….. but a true church cannot just ignore sin and leave it to everyones own discretion ……… “all sins are wrong and you will go to hell if you don’t repent and be saved.” ……. yes they are ….. and you do not get to live like hell and still get to heaven …… but if a person is living like hell ….. then that fruit is an indication that they were never saved to begin with as there is no fruit of being saved ….

            “So they should go to a church and find Jesus and eventually be saved through knowing the gospel because it helps people believe”

            that is not salvation or election …….. decisional salvation is a lie …… God/Christ does not need our permission for Him to save us ……. He never asked my permission to save me ….. if our salvation is up to us ….. then we have no need of Him ……… we can choose to save ourselves ……

          • Sharon_at_home

            “you do not get to live like hell and still get to heaven” That’s against God’s Word. He gave everyone the chance to be saved, and that means repentance. God’s Word doesn’t say that this is the time to stop trying to spread the gospel
            He promised forgiveness for all when they come to Him and believe in Him. He did not say that there is an end to trying to get sinners to come to God, or of how long the offer of the forgiveness of sin has not been said in my bible.

            Oh yeah I’ve been looking for those scriptures for you – I’ve been checking in the first 4 books first and haven’t been able to find the time for more. I’ve got them written down though.

            Your church disciplines people – when they don’t even know whether they believe or not?
            I think they need to understand the Gospel and believe in Jesus and understand what His Salvation entails and what sins they are doing and choose to believe in Christ and DESIRE to give up sins by their own will and accept Him? This isn’t something that takes a short time for everyone. I believe most people who are unsure of their belief in Jesus would leave if they were disciplined for sins, so close to Believing, Trusting and Obeying leading to repentance of sin. The whole process is about the whole salvation idea and it is necessary now because we have many unbelievers, plus a lot of people who just don’t know about Jesus at all.
            Really, they discipline right from day one… and there are no confessions or priests that actually make the people discipline themselves? How does anyone know their sins, without confession, or someone who manipulates newcomers to talk about their sins so the church is aware of them?

            I’m curious how the discipline would work and how the church knows about people’s sins without confession to ‘someone’ to tell them their way of disciplining for that sin?
            Please help me understand. I’d appreciate it.

            God bless!

          • Amos Moses

            “That’s against God’s Word”

            No …. it is not ……. it is precisely Gods word ……we are talking about AFTER one is supposed to have been saved ….. or at least i was ….. living like hell is NOT a fruit of the Spirit …… there is ALMOST no sin that can be forgiven ….. but once you are saved …… and still live like hell …… you were not saved to begin with ……… and yes there are deathbed conversions …. that is not what i was talking about …..

            once a person is saved ….. there is no jumping in and out ….. if that is what you believe ….. then you believe our will is greater than Christs ability to save …… you never were repentant to begin with …. and repentance is not saying “i’m sorry” …… i is a complete change, turning us into a new creation ……….

            10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
            10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
            10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
            10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
            10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
            10:30 I and my Father are one.

            If you are His sheep ….. then there is no living like hell ….. we have no will to jump into and out of salvation …….

            you seem to be confusing the issue of before and after …………

          • Sharon_at_home

            We were talking about teaching people about Salvation and whether they are given the ability to choose – essentially between right and wrong. I do know the difference between saved and unsaved, and I know that you feel that makes us better than others, and that’s not how Jesus wants us to look at sinners (remember, we are all sinners) He wants us to be humble in our daily lives when it comes to treating our fellow human beings with love and compassion.
            What Jesus wants is for everyone to love each other ‘as yourself’ – you have to love yourself to be able to love God. If we did that, we would never have to worry about who is doing something wrong to us, because they would love us and not want us to be hurt. Love is what the Lord created us with and for. His way was given in harsher ways before He came to earth in Jesus and learned what it was like to be human tempted with sin, and again, He tried to fill his world with love.
            Bless you Moses.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Yes it is almost impossible for us to lose our salvation, but if you are not following God’s Word, without repentance and change, you could lose your salvation for that – we need to repent of our sins And make a change so that we try not to repeat that sin. Sin without proper repentance for sins, even though you should know His Will, is not what God wants for any of us. We have to re-assess our lives continually to see if there are any ways in our life that is against God’s Will, so we can avoid sin. After all avoiding sin is not something God controls, it is our desire to not sin that makes us repent and change our lives.
            God can do anything. And one thing He did was give us the gift of free will, knowing He won’t interfere with your choice. He has appointed people (mankind) to be His Teachers, and others are disciples that bring the knowledge of Salvation to the people so they are aware of what sin will do to them if they don’t repent.
            He does not choose each one of us to follow Him. He gives the offer but he does not influence anyone beyond having them taught about Salvation, and He allows us to choose to accept His Salvation and His ways.
            G’day Amos.

          • Amos Moses

            “but if you are not following God’s Word, without repentance and change, you could lose your salvation for that – we need to repent of our sins And make a change so that we try not to repeat that sin”

            Christ died to forgive ALL of our sins …. past, present, and FUTURE ……….. and no …. you CANNOT lose it ……. ADOPTION is PERMANENT ….. when Paul wrote about our adoption into the family of Christ …. he was using the adoption law as the Romans had instituted it …. under Roman law you could disown your flesh and blood …. but you COULD NOT disown a person you adopted, it was illegal ……. Paul was a lawyer ….. he knew that law …….

            Now …. a person may have NEVER truely been saved …. happens all the time …. i was never truely saved as a child ….. but Gods divine intervention changed that …….. He never asked me if it was ok ……… no pastor did that …. GOD did that …..

          • Sharon_at_home

            Then the way it unfolded should be able to be seen now that you know God is in your life. I can see all sorts of ways God’s hands were in things for me from my childhood up, but I never realized he was in it until I learned about God and His Amazing Love. Perhaps you can look at the way your life went before you came to the Church then. For instance, did you begin church as a baby and have always attended either the same one or a church of the same religion. I can see the steps that I went through up to the day I went to the Church for a ‘one time visit’ that wasn’t enough for me. Everyone agrees that there are too many god-incidents that weaved together to lead me to my Church. So there is no reason not to think God had something to do with things in your life. Everything. But it is His Mercy and His Grace that allows him to do it for us. Most of all it is his love.
            Amos, I’m feeling like the scriptures that I sent you either mean nothing to you, or you did not read them. I showed you that God allows us to have free will until we give all control to God. There is the fact that he can do anything. But leading people to the Church to learn the story of Salvation and learning the Gospel, Is not controlling them to make a yes or no decision about the Hope of Salvation. He wants all of us to come to Salvation, of course there are people he feels are already the kind of person that HE wanted in His Kingdom. He still has to leave it to them to choose to accept Jesus’ gift of salvation, believe in Jesus and what He did for us, and desire to repent from any sins they are aware of. (Or you can ask God to show you your iniquities so you can repent ) Oh, and you must have a water baptism like John gave the people in the Jordon River; then if you believe in God in your heart honestly, to some people the Lord gives them the baptism of fire in which the Holy Ghost is in you and is connected with you completely. The water baptism gives you a Spirit to help you with your conversion of being non-Christian like helping to remember what the scriptures say and roughly where they are until we eventually know the books, chapters and verses to significant scriptures.
            Amos I can’t keep going through this. I don’t see it your way and you don’t see it mine, although I hope I gave you pause for thought about some of the scriptures I gave you. Yours had me looking up a lot of things and I learned a few more scriptures better than before.
            But I can not keep stressing things without you even considering them before you whip off the next post of scriptures. I have quoted what Jesus Himself said to the Multitudes, and you still seem to ignore what I’ve been showing you so you will open your eyes to what you are doing. Do you understand what I am trying to say? You rarely give an I agree or I disagree, you just put more scriptures up. Sometimes with no words (or book) to help me understand what point you are trying to make. Your interpretation of some of the scriptures differently than I do, and it’s hard to discuss it when you give me no respect to discuss the scriptures I have offered you. You just go on trying to fight for what you believe in even though you know now that what you believe is not a reflection of what Jesus wants, or at least that there is a different view of looking at it. Read the gospel and let yourself see what I have talked about. Outside that it is your choice to choose what you want to believe.
            I do pray you will remain congenial with other posters so we can discuss not just stick to our own conclusions sometimes. I do appreciate the discussion so much – I really enjoyed showing you my scriptures an having your scriptures to read too. TBH I think our back and forth has strengthened my faith because I was able to ‘hold my own’ with you and you are so much more knowledgeable about the bible. I knew God was helping me with it. God is Great! I praise you O Lord!
            Amos I hope you will read over the scriptures and think about it for yourself. If you need anything for clarification please don’t hesitate to let me know.
            BTW Did you know you don’t have to confess to your priest anymore?
            1 Timothy 2:5
            5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

            Check it out! Try to enjoy opening your mind to other possibilities that you might have missed yourself..
            Blessings!

          • Amos Moses

            “I can see all sorts of ways God’s hands were in things for me from my childhood up, but I never realized he was in it until I learned about God and His Amazing Love. ”

            ABSOLUTELY …. and kept you and protected you ….. because you belong to Him and you ALWAYS did ….. before you were even born ……. we were the lost sheep ….. and He left His flock of hundreds to come find us and kept us protected ….. and brought us home …….

            “I showed you that God allows us to have free will until we give all control to God. ”

            God always had the control …….. we have limited free will ….. Gods will is a river … and we are fish in that river …… now we can swim anywhere in the river ….. up, down, right side, left side, in the middle ……… but we have no power to tell the river where to go ….. and outside of that river (Gods will) … we die ……… God controls and holds in place the molecules of the finger nail of the pinky finger of your left hand …… continually ….. He is always in control …. is God love …. yes ……….. but HE IS SOOOO MUCH MORE …..

            (cut/paste)

            God is eternal, meaning He had no beginning and His existence will never end. He is immortal and infinite (Deuteronomy 33:27; Psalm 90:2; 1 Timothy 1:17). God is immutable, meaning He is unchanging; this in turn means that God is absolutely reliable and trustworthy (Malachi 3:6; Numbers 23:19; Psalm 102:26, 27). God is incomparable; there is no one like Him in works or being. He is unequaled and perfect (2 Samuel 7:22; Psalm 86:8; Isaiah 40:25; Matthew 5:48). God is inscrutable, unfathomable, unsearchable, and past finding out as far as understanding Him completely (Isaiah 40:28; Psalm 145:3; Romans 11:33, 34).

            God is just; He is no respecter of persons in the sense of showing favoritism (Deuteronomy 32:4; Psalm 18:30). God is omnipotent; He is all-powerful and can do anything that pleases Him, but His actions will always be in accord with the rest of His character (Revelation 19:6; Jeremiah 32:17, 27). God is omnipresent, meaning He is present everywhere, but this does not mean that God is everything (Psalm 139:7-13; Jeremiah 23:23). God is omniscient, meaning He knows the past, present, and future, including what we are thinking at any given moment. Since He knows everything, His justice will always be administered fairly (Psalm 139:1-5; Proverbs 5:21).

            God is one; not only is there no other, but He is alone in being able to meet the deepest needs and longings of our hearts. God alone is worthy of our worship and devotion (Deuteronomy 6:4). God is righteous, meaning that God cannot and will not pass over wrongdoing. It is because of God’s righteousness and justice that, in order for our sins to be forgiven, Jesus had to experience God’s wrath when our sins were placed upon Him (Exodus 9:27; Matthew 27:45-46; Romans 3:21-26).

            God is sovereign, meaning He is supreme. All of His creation put together cannot thwart His purposes (Psalm 93:1; 95:3; Jeremiah 23:20). God is spirit, meaning He is invisible (John 1:18; 4:24). God is a Trinity. He is three in one, the same in substance, equal in power and glory. God is truth, He will remain incorruptible and cannot lie (Psalm 117:2; 1 Samuel 15:29).

            God is holy, separated from all moral defilement and hostile toward it. God sees all evil and it angers Him. God is referred to as a consuming fire (Isaiah 6:3; Habakkuk 1:13; Exodus 3:2, 4-5; Hebrews 12:29). God is gracious, and His grace includes His goodness, kindness, mercy, and love. If it were not for God’s grace, His holiness would exclude us from His presence. Thankfully, this is not the case, for He desires to know each of us personally (Exodus 34:6; Psalm 31:19; 1 Peter 1:3; John 3:16, 17:3).

            Since God is an infinite Being, no human can fully answer this God-sized question, but through God’s Word, we can understand much about who God is and what He is like. May we all wholeheartedly continue to seek after Him (Jeremiah 29:13).

          • Amos Moses

            “Amos, I’m feeling like the scriptures that I sent you either mean nothing to you, or you did not read them.”

            there have been so few i may have missed them … if you would could you put them in one post and we will deal with each one ….. God does not contradict Himself ….

            “He wants all of us to come to Salvation, of course there are people he feels are already the kind of person that HE wanted in His Kingdom. ”

            sure …. God would not desire anyone to go to hell ……….. but God MUST also execute the judgement He has set … and He knows there are those who will not come to Him ….. because He created them ………. they are without excuse …. the plan of salvation has been preached to all …..

            10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
            10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
            10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
            10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
            10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

          • Amos Moses

            there is a process of salvation ….. it has not one thing to do with us ….. as a person who needs to be saved ….. or as a saved person “trying” to save others ….. it does not work that way ….. it is ALL Gods/Christs work …. and none of our own …..

            the process in order is as follows ………. and it is all under Gods control …. not ours ….
            1. Election
            2. The Call (outward:preaching, inward: The Holy Spirits drawing)
            3. Regeneration
            4. Conversion (Faith and Repentance)
            5. Justification
            6. Adoption (actual adoption into the family of God)
            7. Sanctification (growing in holiness)
            8 .Perserverance
            9. Death
            10. Glorification

            our only contribution is to present the truth of the scriptures ….. all the scriptures ….. law and gospel …… and we are not given the option of pouring sugar on it to make it palatable to anyone ………….. we are to be salt and light …. not sugar and light …….. and a watered down gospel ….. is NOT the gospel …………….

            Deuteronomy 4:2, Deuteronomy 12:32, Proverbs 30:6, Galatians 1:8-9, 2 Peter 1:19-21, Revelation 22 18-21

            you may find this useful …. on the utube machine …..

            True, Spiritual Conversion v. A False, Hypocritical, Manmade One

          • Sharon_at_home

            You cannot know that. Some where down the road in their life they may have something happen that can change their direction in life. I know 2 people who believe God stopped them from crashes, and they came to church because of that. It was that scary to them.
            You might not want to use such a wide brush when you tell yourself that. Not everyone will be in those positions Moses. Some are going to come to salvation because God said it would be so. right up to the end. Moses what if one person makes up their mind to follow Jesus because of you. Some one who sins, but you don’t know what their sin is. (we’re all sinners) Ok, so now this person wants to know what Jesus and Salvation is all about and goes to their local church to find out? God may have given you a specific job to do but it’s with a sinner that you don’t believe can ever come to Salvation. What would Jesus say the day you go to heaven? “well done Faithful Servant” or “I don’t know you”
            “they” in the bible is not referring to the people of today, but to the people of the times. People have changed over the years, but God never changes, and he wants love and caring for everyone and for them to go to Him.
            Do you not realize that God uses people without us knowing, by manipulating the circumstances to work. I have people tell me often that God told them to pray for me. Doesn’t make a difference to me, although I hope they aren’t frauds, because I believe that God does give people tasks for us to do. Meet someone and be kind; Distract this person so they don’t step onto the road and be hit by a car. He directs everything and knows exactly what will happen before it does.
            I know a lot of people who were disappointed when I became a Christian because they don’t like them in general, and because they hear about all these mega churches being busted, but they don’t realize that there are thousands of smaller churches and many of them are barely hanging on because their members are few and the rent is more than what they gather in a month sometimes.
            I don’t want to be hated because others thinks is ‘normal’ behavior for a ‘Christian church to soak the members of all their congregation for all they have then get busted.
            I know there are many many churches and the majority do not do that.
            I am curious too.
            Amos, what religion are you? To answer another post, I am Apostolic, and happy that I am. My experiences with God have been many because of how we believe Jesus wanted us to love every one, and keep teaching the Gospel. I actually haven’t been able to talk with my Pastor about how I feel about umm. loud Christians? but I know him well enough and what our church believes about Jesus, that he would agree. I have not found anything that says we have to tell sinners anything “up front” about their sins instead of it being more about Jesus and His Salvation saving sinners from Hell, not putting them in Hell. Then they will believe or not by their will, and they will desire to stop sinning from their love of Jesus. He does not want someone who is unwilling and he knows who is being honest when they say they believe, and when they are making it about something else. Until they have the right heart, God won’t fill them with the his baptism by Spirit and Fire – give them the Holy Spirit. If you are baptized it is the baptism of water, but God will fill you with the Holy Spirit if your heart is right. But He doesn’t give this baptism to every one unless they have the kind of heart Lord God looks for in us. Of course you have to ask for while believing he will give it to you. He wants someone who follows both His commandments. They cover all the other laws and commandments.
            You just don’t seem to have found the love that Jesus wants us to reflect to have others see it and the Glory the Father. And you sometimes sound only concerned about your own Salvation, and not others, as if this was the end day. I don’t understand that view because I know God wants us to bring people to him and never stop.
            Oh rats, I rambled on again. I’m sorry. I really am trying to shorten my posts, truly! Please have patience with me. I’d appreciate it.
            See you in our next posts. God bless you!

          • Amos Moses

            “You cannot know that.”

            yes you can …. because scripture says so …….. i made no statement of their ultimate destination ………..

            ” I have not found anything that says we have to tell sinners anything “up front” about their sins instead of it being more about Jesus and His Salvation saving sinners from Hell”

            in what order were we given scripture ….. which came first …. the law ….. or the gospel ………. this is not the chicken and the egg …… there was an order that God gave us those things ………. what was it ……

          • Amos Moses

            “Until they have the right heart, God won’t fill them with the his baptism by Spirit and Fire – give them the Holy Spirit.”

            many fake it ….. Christ said ………

            24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
            24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

            there are wolves in sheep clothing … and false teachers and false christs ………….. scripture says so ……….

          • Sharon_at_home

            You cannot fool God though and he’s the one that matters when it comes to salvation. You won’t get it if you have false beliefs about it. He knows our hearts. That’s why I said God won’t fill them. I know people fake it but Amos, you know what, that’s between them and God. It won’t be instrumental to their being saved, and it’s usually their own choice.

            I am going by the KJV bible only Moses, if it’s not in the scripture, it’s not truth.

            I can tell you seem very skeptical and and it feels like often negatively towards everyone, . Do you base what you say on what you’ve been taught, or what you read in the bible for yourself.

          • Amos Moses

            “you won’t get it if you have false beliefs about it”

            yep …. but the false converts try to fool us ……….

            “that’s between them and God”

            nope …. it is between them and those deceived into following them ….. and it is the true church that MUST shut them up ……..

            Titus
            1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
            1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
            1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.
            1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
            1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
            1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

            we are the stewards of His church …. and it is HIS church … not ours …… and to be good stewards of HIS church …… we are required to make sure it is spiritually and doctrinally pure ……… lest we also fall into apostasy ……………

          • Amos Moses

            “Amos, what religion are you?”

            i told you this, i am a christian …….

            “Moses what if one person makes up their mind to follow Jesus because of you. Some one who sins, but you don’t know what their sin is. (we’re all sinners) Ok, so now this person wants to know what Jesus and Salvation is all about and goes to their local church to find out? God may have given you a specific job to do but it’s with a sinner that you don’t believe can ever come to Salvation. What would Jesus say the day you go to heaven?”

            who said i do not believe they can come to salvation …… i do not know if they will or not ……. i never claimed any different ……… my job is to present the truth and the scriptures ….. God/Christ takes care of the rest ……. but until God regenerates them ….. they have no ability to choose God …… and that is scripture …… i am free to speak Gods word unfiltered ……… and i do ………. if they are His sheep ….. then they will respond ….. if they are not ….. not my problem …………..

          • Amos Moses

            Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.

            do you understand that when Christ called them “whited sepulchres” ….. He was calling them white trash …………. “full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.” ……… and you think that was “tolerance” ………..

          • Sharon_at_home

            He always rebuked the scribes and Pharisees every time he dealt with them.
            I just don’t believe that Jesus was Hateful towards sinners (scribes and Pharisees excluded) That is why I say people should not demean other people like they do.
            Christians are supposed to be good people who care about others and want others to come to know Jesus and about Salvation.
            Jesus also told us to love each other. (He said this more than once)
            as well He gave us a command to “treat people the way we want to be treated.”
            Telling people that they are horrible people because of their sin is not what Jesus did, and He would not want us to either.
            It’s like this: when a person comes to a church, and when they join one, they are not even asked what sins they do. They are taught about Jesus and Salvation and that they need to repent for their sins to be able to have Salvation.
            Why do you have to put hate in any speech? It isn’t going to encourage them not to sin, it will make them go the other direction. I don’t hang around people who don’t like me, do you? Why would I want to listen to you when you show you hate me?
            It’s not the way Jesus would have behaved toward the multitudes. He would have had a nicer tone to talk to them than he would scribes and Pharisees. I don’t remember Him talking like that to anyone but those groups.
            I appreciate you pointing that out. Thank you. I’m always up for a discussion. God Bless you Moses!

          • Amos Moses

            John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

            this is not a “tolerant” statement ……….. this is an exclusive statement ……. this is a statement that EXCLUDES multitudes …… and the world sees it as such …… they see it and hear it as HATEFUL towards those who are not christian ………..

            “Christians are supposed to be good people ”

            there are no “good people” ………

            3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
            3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
            3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
            3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
            3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
            3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
            3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
            3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
            3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

            19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
            19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

          • Amos Moses

            “Telling people that they are horrible people because of their sin is not what Jesus did, and He would not want us to either. ”

            all of scripture is of Christ and about Christ …… Christ is God ….. He delivered the 10 commandments and He delivered Romans 1 and all the rest of the scriptures to us ……. we are given extensive lists of sin all throughout the scriptures …… FYI …. you cannot find even one person in scripture who was saved in church …. any church …… church is only of the saved ….. church is a gathering of the saved ….. not the unsaved ……… this is a modern idea and practice and it is a false teaching ……. sure the church is open to all ….. but salvation does not take place in church ….. it first takes place in the heart and the soul and only there …. a person has to first be regenerated by Christ and the Holy Spirit before they can be saved …………… we are all dead in trespasses and sin ….. until we are regenerated ………..

            1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
            1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
            1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
            1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
            1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
            1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
            1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
            1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
            1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
            1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
            1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

          • Sharon_at_home

            No churches are not only people who are saved. There should always be people that come to the church to learn about Jesus.

            Ok how is someone going to learn to what to do to receive salvation, it’s not just something that happens to people until they believe with honest belief. Yes He gives it to them as well as numerous other gifts. but they have to be taught about salvation, and love God before he will regenerate anyone. I have to look for scripture for this.

            I am going to be away most of tomorrow so I won’t even be able to look anything up to be able to post. I will try very hard to remember this conversation and find a scripture that explains what I’m saying.

            I will be back for our discussions Moses. If I am distracted enough to forget this promise of scripture please remind me. I’d appreciate it.

            I’m really enjoying our discussion Moses. We are both very strong in our faith and stand up firm for the beliefs we have.

            But we are not fighting. .. yeah I like that! Thanks!
            God bless, Moses!

          • Amos Moses

            “No churches are not only people who are saved.”

            the word in Greek defined as “church” is

            G1577
            ἐκκλησία
            ekklēsia
            ek-klay-see’-ah
            From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): – assembly, church.

            the unsaved …. the world and the worldly ….. are not called out ….. are not part of the assembly of the christian community ……. YET ….. now they can come to “church” anytime they please ….. but that does not make them of the “church” …….. and it is only the ekklesia, the “church”, the saved that the meeting is for ….. and it is for “the assembling of ourselves” …. and the “ourselves” is referring to the believers, the elect …….. christianity is EXCLUSIVE ….. it is not inclusive …… and when you bring the world into the church …. you destroy the church …..

            10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
            10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
            10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
            10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

          • Amos Moses

            “Ok how is someone going to learn to what to do to receive salvation”

            there is nothing for them to do …… it is a gift …. it is freely given ….. evangelism is not done for the saved …. that is preaching to the choir …… evangelism, speaking clearly and fully the scriptures is the method Christ gave us to reach the unsaved ……… that is what Christ did, that is what Matthew 5-7 is ….. He did not setup a “church” some place …. invite people to come in and have a “religious experience” … give “an alter call” and BEG people to “make a decision” ….. that is not the act of a sovereign God …… Christ is not a beggar ….. He is the Sovereign Lord …….

            9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
            9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
            9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
            9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
            9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
            9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
            9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
            9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
            9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
            9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
            9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

          • Amos Moses

            Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

          • Amos Moses

            6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
            6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
            6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
            6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
            6:13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
            6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Peter was addressing this to the Corinthians about their sins in an Epistle. He was describing to them what they behavior they had been reported as have been doing as sins and that they must not do them any longer or they won’t receive salvation.
            Basically, I guess he was appealing to their love of Jesus to change their ways because he heard that they had been sinning in a way that they had been taught about before.
            Unless you are saying that I am being unrighteous according to that scripture?
            I’m aware that the apostles taught in their gatherings and in letters about what sins they were committing, in a list kind of way a lot of the time because that was how Jesus spoke of them.
            I’m not sure what you are specifically pointing out by posting this scripture for me. Sorry.

          • Amos Moses

            actually it was Paul ………… and it was a list ……….. of sins ………

          • Sharon_at_home

            Yes it was a list of sins; was there a particular sin you were pointing out that you wanted to talk about or that is making a point about something I said? I couldn’t find the particular part you were pointing out other than it is a list of sins, so need to ask.
            I’m sorry I don’t know why I said Peter instead of Paul, because I knew it. I was looking up other scriptures at the time. shrug..

          • Amos Moses

            just pointing out that scripture talks about sin … and the need to preach the law …… we will not get true conviction or true conversion without preaching the law …..

          • Amos Moses

            BTW ….. we are not talking about “religion” …… we are talking about christianity and what it is and what it is not ………….

      • Lentenlands

        Hatred? You’re delusional. I never said a word about any brothers or sisters in Christ. Read it again slowly since your comprehension is so low:

        “Roman Catholicism is such a freakshow of pagan idolatry and garbage. It’s amazing people get saved and come to know Christ as Lord and Saviour despite the best efforts of Rome’s pagan pope, the satanic vatican and Rome’s system of perverted everything.”

        My words stand true. Print them out an eat them if you like.

        • Parodyx

          What a shame you can’t accept that the original Christians are still Christians.

    • Reason2012

      That’s what the gates of_hell try to do: keep people out of heaven. And Christ points out that even the gates of_hell like catholicism will not prevail against Christ, the rock of salvation.

      Matthew 16:15-18 “He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

      The rock Christ will build His church on is that “Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God” – and the gates of_hell will not prevail against that truth.

  • Amos Moses

    i gotta say ….. the picture for this article …… has to be one of the CREEPIEST i have seen ……..

    • Sharon_at_home

      Look at the expression of the girl on the left. She looks like she wants to bite someone! lol!

  • BuckeyePhysicist

    You’ll never please Jesus by hating on His mother.

    • Reason0verhate

      Protestants follow the pattern set by the New Testament. We don’t “hate” Jesus’ mother, we just don’t get into the “queen of the universe” or “co-redemptrix” folderol because the apostles didn’t. The New Testament is Christo-centric.

      • BuckeyePhysicist

        Protestants follow the pattern of men who interpret the New Testament according to private interpretation. St. Peter wrote against this! Read 2 Peter 1:20. If Protestants truly followed the New Testament they would all believe the same things about it and they do not.

        We existed before the New Testament was written. In fact, we wrote it! Why not trust those at the source at the time instead of a bunch of competing sects which broke away fifteen centuries later?

        We Catholics worship God and Him alone. We call Jesus Our Lord and Savior. It is by His grace alone we attain salvation because He died and rose again and we are baptized into His death that we might rise with Him again.

        • Oboehner

          “We Catholics worship God and Him alone.” Horse pucky, just because you use weasel verbiage doesn’t change the fact catholics worship mary – veneration=worship.

          • Parodyx

            It’s simple respect, something you don’t understand when it’s also extended to people like the pope. No one is asking Mary or the Pope for salvation. Your cult has lied to you.

          • Amos Moses

            one word ……….. Co-Redemptrix ……….. there is none in scripture …… there is only Christ …… Mary is not and never was and never will be …………..

          • Parodyx

            Catholics are not Bible-only. You lose. Don’t expect the established Christians to play by your fundamentalist rules when they have been around longer.

          • Amos Moses

            “Catholics are not Bible-only.”

            and that is why they need to be saved …………..

          • Parodyx

            Not your call to make.

          • Amos Moses

            yeah …. it actually is …….. and scripture says so ………..

          • Parodyx

            They were saved when they were baptized as infants.

          • Amos Moses

            yeah …. no …… water baptism confers no salvific status …… it is an outward sign and has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit entering the child and regenerating them ……

          • Parodyx

            That’s your belief, too bad it isn’t shared by most Christians.

          • Amos Moses

            no …….. that is WHAT SCRIPTURE teaches ………….. i do not care what the unsaved world thinks about it ….. i care about what scripture and Christ said ………

          • Parodyx

            You seem to disregard the Christianity that was done for nearly 2000 years, and then have the nerve to tell others how it’s done. I don’t think so.

          • Amos Moses

            you are not a christian by your own admission ….. how would you know …… and further ….. i already know you do not think …… SO …………

          • Sharon_at_home

            There is a belief that Jesus wanted only the people who were to be saved that were totally aware about His Salvation, and that young children should be blessed and being Christened before you understand what you are agreeing to, and that infants and children do not understand well enough to accept Salvation. The NT never had babies and children baptized, but showed that Jesus blessed them instead. Only adults were baptized then by what it said in the bible.
            So when Amos states things from the bible it is because he believes that way. And Yes he does believe his religion is correct just as you do.
            He shouldn’t however try to insist that others follow it, because there are religions that hold separate beliefs.
            Respect is the right word for what we should treat all people, no matter what they believe.
            Question: Do you believe that God would have allowed there to be other religions – believing in different things – if He didn’t think that having other religions was a good thing? I expect He just wants believers to come to Salvation, and if it takes more than one way to help people to do that, He would allow it. People do try to attend a Church that has the same basic beliefs they agree with. Maybe it’s about the way different people can understand differently, and these other churches are for those who need that difference.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Catholics are not Bible only? What do you mean? They use other sources to blend with their religion? sorry, I’m confused by that…

          • Grace

            Catholics use scripture and tradition. Most of the time, these traditions are based in scripture.An example of a tradition is having a Crucifix (A cross with Christ crucified on it) at the front of the church. Catholics don’t worship the crucifix, they use it as a reminder, and to reflect on Christ suffering for us. There is nothing in the Bible that says we have to have a Crucifix, but through tradition, it has become a large part of the Catholic Church.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Wow Grace that was an amazing post. I really appreciate your kindness in explaining that.
            I was told by another poster about how it is a request for a prayer, rather than what most people seem to think it is about asking her to pray to Jesus for them with a specific request, and it sounded like you prayed only to her and not to Jesus Himself.
            This is why I like to discuss things like this. Now any poster can see your reply and it will be a good thing for the Catholic Church.
            I wonder if anyone makes sure a tradition is not continued when the other things that go with it have been changed, or been taken out of a church for some reason. I have an almost funny story about a church that once had their gymnasium/stage furnished with basket ball hoops and the floor had of course painted appropriate lines into it. The story goes that the basketball hoops had been taken out a generation ago (50’s) my generation more or less. The Church was doing their traditional things that were done in and around the building as well as maintaining their church. So this year when they were talking about the cost for their budget, someone pointed out that if the basketball hoops were not there, why were they paying extra for the lines of paint if there could not be basketball hoops. So since the 50’s they had regularly paid for the floor re-finished from wear and tear, and paid extra for the painted lines. And when it was asked why they had continued to do it, they said it was “tradition”. So some traditions should be reviewed periodically I guess for feasibility. It certainly wouldn’t hurt to look at them, to make sure they continue to be what they were created for. But, I guess it depends on the experience of the board of the church who makes decisions about what should be in the church.
            I thank you for your great explanation, Grace. It was certainly a blessing for me and I hope for others who did not understand it.
            I would also like to Thank you for informing us of your faith/religion.
            You never be ashamed of your faith Grace, so you should always be willing to stand up for it. If your religion is a known one, there is still no reason to hide it, is there?
            Are Catholics treated badly because of their faith? Just because I haven’t seen anything doesn’t mean there isn’t mistreatment. Is the fact that you are Catholic stop you from telling us your religion? I hope that isn’t the case.
            May God bless you and keep you in peace and with Joy, Grace. Keep on learning along with the rest of us here.

          • Parodyx

            Yes, the three sources of authority for Catholics are scripture, sacred tradition and the magisterium (church teaching). Bible only came along much later.

          • Sharon_at_home

            I don’t expect it was his religion that has lied to him necessarily because I have heard the same from other sources about Catholicism. Belief is a personal thing that comes from inside of us, going to church is to help us understand and helps us to stay on the right track. I’ve never heard of a religion discussing a different religion at the pulpit either. I am by no means saying it doesn’t happen, but you can’t be sure it was anything but his own findings that make him say that.
            I think all religions that point to Jesus’ salvation are good just because of that message. The other things they believe in is their right just as your beliefs is your right.
            What I have read about Catholics and Mary was that you pray to her to pray to Jesus/God for the request? Is that right?
            The New Testament said that we need only pray to Jesus as he is the mediator between us and God, and that we pray directly to Jesus without needing others to ask for us. That is why people question it when they hear that you pray to Mary rather than Jesus. I’ve read many articles that say you use her to pray to Jesus so I guess I’m confused by what you call simple respect too.
            Your answer will help me understand it better (and maybe others too).
            Blessings Parodyx! Have a great day!

          • Grace

            Catholics ask Mary to pray for them just like you would ask your best friend to pray for you if you’re going through a tough time. That is the simplest way to explain it. Yes we still pray directly to God for the same thing that we ask Mary or someone else to pray for us. And in a tough time it’s always nice to know that someone is praying for us. There is more to it but this is the basic gist of why we pray for Mary’s intercession.

            Do you have the exact passage from the Bible that says that? I want to read it to understand it more fully. Thank you.

            If you have any other questions, feel free to ask!

          • Sharon_at_home

            Do you pray for one before the other? (Jesus /Mary) or are they separate prayers done at different times?
            I am looking for the passage that says that ”
            The New Testament said that we need only pray to Jesus as
            he is the mediator between us and God, and that we pray directly to Jesus without needing others to ask for us.”
            I will give it to you as soon as I can.

            We pray for each other. That is actually said in the NT as well. I will look for that one at the same time. We pray because we have been asked, because we care about them and know they need God’s help, and because our church will hear about someone in our faith (usually, but not exclusively) who has lost someone, is going into an operation, or really needs something from the Lord, and we are asked to pray for them from the pulpit so we can pray for them through the week as well.

            The prayers are only to the Lord from each of us, but we are praying for others and it’s accepted in our religion. As I said, I will look for the 2 scriptures for you.

            God bless you Grace!

          • Oboehner

            Apparently you aren’t very knowledgeable about the RCC cult:

            “The foundation of all our confidence is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will: That we obtain everything through Mary.” Pope Pius IX

            “Who can worthily thank thee and adequately praise thee, oh Blessed Virgin, who by thy fiat has saved a lost world.” St. Augustine

            “Sinners receive pardon by the intercession of Mary alone.” St. John Chrysostom

            “All those who seek Mary’s protection will be saved for all eternity.” Pope Benedict XV

          • Parodyx

            There were probably a few idiotic popes over the years, there have been so many it’s just the law of probability. Most Catholics don’t think that way and most Christians don’t hate on Catholics nearly as hard as you do.

          • Oboehner

            “The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as Supreme Pastor and teacher of all the faithful–who confirms his brethren in the faith–he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals….The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, ‘they exercise the supreme Magisterium,’ above all in an Ecumenical Council. When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine ‘for belief as being divinely revealed,’ and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions ‘must be adhered to with the obedience of faith.’ This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine revelation itself.” Catechism of the Catholic Church, #891, 1994 edition.

          • Parodyx

            Yes, and for an organization that’s 2000 years old there are probably imperfections all over the place, lots of them political in nature which is just how it is when you mix church and state, which isn’t done anymore (but fundamentalists are doing their best to change it).

            “Cult” by the way is a very stupid thing to call them – they are far too old and far too large for the word to apply.

          • Oboehner

            Speaking of a dictionary, do you have the faintest clue as to what “infallible” means?

          • Parodyx

            What point is it you THINK you are making now, little man?

          • Oboehner

            Is that hate? How hypocritical of you.

          • Parodyx

            I know what infallible means, why are you sugggesting I don’t?

          • Oboehner

            You suggested that.

          • Parodyx

            I don’t think anybody is infallible.

          • Oboehner

            If you are defending the RCC then yes, you do.

          • Parodyx

            If you’re referring to the Pope, he’s only considered “infallible” when he sits ex cathedra. Which has happened fewer times than you have fingers on your hands.

          • Oboehner

            Didn’t see that in the quote I posted.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Please do not be rude, we are all people regardless of our different religions, or non religion. If you do not believe what others believe you are welcome to discuss it but there is no reason to be demeaning another religion that is about Jesus’ Salvation. Sharing your thoughts without casting stones would be appreciated so we can discuss it together.
            God bless!

          • Oboehner

            2 John 9-11King James Version (KJV)
            9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.
            He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
            10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
            11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

          • Sharon_at_home

            You really have to put something in your posts that explains why you are posting something. I really can’t decide for you what you were trying to say, and I wouldn’t want to be wrong about what I answered either.

          • Oboehner

            I would say that scripture passage is a crystal clear rebuttal to:

            “Please do not be rude, we are all people regardless of our different religions, or non religion. If you do not believe what others believe you are welcome to discuss it but there is no reason to be demeaning another religion that is about Jesus’ Salvation. Sharing your thoughts without casting stones would be appreciated so we can discuss it together.”

          • Sharon_at_home

            You know what? You sound like you feel any religion but your own is wrong.
            And that’s wrong.
            I believe in the same doctrine you do, I just look at it differently than you do. It’s not wrong, it’s different.
            Jesus never said anywhere in the bible that we must all work the same way to bring people to understand the Gospel. Often the reason why people split from the Catholic Church is because of the attitude of perfection that Catholics seem to feel towards everyone else.

            Your church may be perfect for you, and yours, but it is not to others. My church is perfect and yours is wrong if I was to think in the same lines as you are. I’m better than you because my Pastor preaches in a totally different way than your Priest does. Because that is what you are implying by the way you are so condemning in every thing you say to people of other religions.

            God never said that the Catholic Church is the ONLY way to follow Jesus. Ever. And He allowed people to leave that church and create others with more tolerance. You have NO Right to say what God can, will or has done. NONE. God ways are above our understanding. He doesn’t ask us to help him with his dealings. He is righteous and true and man cannot even begin to understand why He’s done what He’s done unless He feels like explaining it.

          • Oboehner

            https://www.youtube.cOm/watch?v=uKcXTYWh2F0
            This may answer some questions, watch with an open mind.

        • Oboehner

          “We existed before the New Testament was written. In fact, we wrote it!” Wrong.

          • Parodyx

            No, he’s correct.

          • Oboehner

            Nope he is full of crap, the New Testament was inspired by God and written down by his servants – had nothing to do with Simon Magus or Constantine.

          • Parodyx

            It was written by human beings who wanted to control other people and so said that God “inspired” the writing. He is entirely correct.

          • Oboehner

            Trollin’, trollin’, trollin’.

          • Parodyx

            Tell you what, why don’t you write a book tomorrow and then to help it to sell, tell people that God “inspired” you to write it. What? It wouldn’t work? WHY not? What is the difference?

          • Oboehner

            Trollin’, trollin’, trollin’.

          • Parodyx

            OK, so you can’t explain why writing a book that you claim to be divinely inspired would not be believed now but we are supposed to believe it happened 2000 years ago. Got it.

          • Oboehner

            Yet you believe in a myth about exploding dots bazillions of years ago…

          • Parodyx

            No I don’t. I believe in scientific consensus. No one said exploding dot but you. You should stop strawmanning.

          • Oboehner

            Ok, rapidly expanding micro whatever, huge difference there! *eyeroll*

          • Parodyx

            It’s called the Big Bang Theory. It’s probably got flaws in it but somehow is more reasonable and attempts to be a little bit more than “goddidit”.

          • Oboehner

            More reasonable, hmmm… Since when does the beliefs of others have ANY relevancy in proving yours?

          • Parodyx

            I have nothing to prove. I don’t argue anything that hasn’t already been proven, and the things I haven’t proven I don’t pretend are facts. You are quite, quite transparent – very adept at sneering and ridiculing and pointing fingers and wiggling your ears but never once admitting to your own faith lest you have to explain how your own barbs don’t apply to your own situation.

          • Oboehner

            Looking… looking… Nope no proof or even relevant facts, just the same old empty claims, fairytales, and epithets. No surprise.

        • Amos Moses

          “If Protestants truly followed the New Testament they would all believe the same things about it and they do not.”

          nope ….. all men have a different acceptance of scripture ….. as all men are sinful and they bring their idols to scripture …… as does the RCC ………..

          “Why not trust those at the source at the time instead of a bunch of competing sects which broke away fifteen centuries later?”

          those who follow Sola Scriptura were always part of the church …… the RCC did not like that ……… and no ….. the RCC did not write it ….. the Holy Spirit is solely the source of all scripture ……….

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            Who taught you these falsehoods? Preachers? Books?

          • Amos Moses

            there is no co-redemptrix …… and yet this pope and many others refer to Mary as such ….. and that is a blasphemy to Christ and to Mary …..

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            “Co-” does not mean equal.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Buckeye, people are just as strong about their faith as you are, so they will not necessarily agree with you,
            I believe that as long as you Love God and try to behave like the Gospel tells us Jesus/God wants us to, regardless of your religion, (and of course you get the Holy Spirit to guide you) you are given the Hope of Salvation.
            Each religion believes in different aspects from the other but all are the body of Christ. It should only matter that people are saved, shouldn’t it?
            You have to allow for others beliefs just as others should allow for the differences to your belief.
            God bless you!

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            You’re Mormon?

    • Amos Moses

      false paradigm …….. if you love Christ ….. then you love Mary ……. but ….. we do not venerate or worship (and there is no difference in those terms) any person …. and Christ said to follow God ……….. not Mary ………..

      Luke
      11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
      11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

      • BuckeyePhysicist

        There’s a YUGE difference between worship and veneration. You saying differently does not make it so.

        • Amos Moses

          “There’s a YUGE difference between worship and veneration.”

          when you elevate ANY man (or woman) above other men and above their place in Gods order ….. that is idolatry ….. and that is worship ……….

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            We don’t do that.

          • Amos Moses

            yeah catholics do …….. been there ….. done that ….. and if you read the RCC catechism ….. do i need to quote it …… they say they do …………

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            Come to Mass. You’ll see we only worship God. I don’t understand the meanness on this site.

          • Amos Moses

            from the RCC catechism ……….

            973 By pronouncing her “fiat” at the Annunciation and giving her consent to the Incarnation, Mary was already collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish. She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body.
            (the head is Christ …. there is no other head ….. Christ is not subservient to Mary in any way shape or form …..)

            974 The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven, where she already shares in the glory of her Son’s Resurrection, anticipating the resurrection of all members of his Body.
            (absolutely no evidence that she is so ……. from scripture or any place else)

            975 “We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ”
            ( in no place in scripture is she the “new Eve” ….. and she has no role ….. maternal or otherwise …… she was a sinner just as everyone else and in need of a Savior ….. just as everyone else …. and she said so …………)

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            What does “full of grace” mean? Free of sin! She was saved at the moment of her conception to prepare her to become Mother of God. We call Mary this to emphasize the divinity of Christ.

          • Amos Moses

            no …. it does not mean free from sin …….. grace is not freedom from sin …… it is given IN SPITE of sin ….. it is given for having faith …….. the elect are chosen by God …… God through the Holy Spirit regenerates those dead in sin …… the gift of faith is then given ….. and that saving faith brings grace and salvation …….. and there is no scripture whatsoever that says she was free from sin and not a sinner …… quite the opposite ………..

            1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
            1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. (HER SAVIOR)
            1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
            1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

            Mary acknowledges her low estate as a sinner, and her need for a Savior …………

          • Parodyx

            It’s just a handful of mean people. They are all fundamentalists.

          • Sharon_at_home

            I agree about the attitude of some of the posters is not what is the ideal, but most of us can discuss things without being cruel. Take heart Buckeye, the people who are too rude will find that people don’t want to try to discuss things with them because of their attitude.

            Also, forgive them for how they say things. They should be able to say it without meanness.

            When it comes to the articles, I don’t always like the way they put things in them either. IMO They should be edited to take any hint of meanness away.

            God bless Buckeye!

  • InTheChurch

    how about you go straight to the source.

  • BuckeyePhysicist

    He’s your pope too…..

    • Amos Moses

      by “mean spirited” …. i guess you mean the truth of the scriptures …………..

      • BuckeyePhysicist

        No Christian should write with such malice and anger like the author.

  • kenster777

    II Corinthians 11:14 Says Satan can transform himself into an angel of Light
    I John 4:1 says try the Spirits to see if there of God
    If you look to Jesus and Jesus alone then you can find the Truth John 14:6
    If you pray to another that is Idolatry

    II timothy 4:2 Says reprove rebuke with all long suffering
    The 2 biggest false religions were created by people seeing angels of lights, Mormonism and Islam
    Don’t be blinded by these false prophets or prophesies

  • Reason2012

    “Some I will cure during the year. Pray, pray very much. Make sacrifices for sinners. Many souls go to Hell because no one is willing to help them with sacrifice,” Mary replied.

    Wow what damnable heresy: pretending Mary appeared to others and said there is more need for sacrifice otherwise people are going to_hell, which clearly attacks Christ and His sacrifice, pretending more is needed instead.

    Hebrews 10:10 “By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

    Romans 3:25 “Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;”

    Romans 5:9 “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”

    Ephesians 1:7 “In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;”

    But catholicism instead keeps people condemned by fooling them to condemn themselves with their words to profess trust in priests’ sacrifices and hence not trusting on Christ.

    “May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands for the praise and glory of his name, for our good, and the good of all his Church.”

    Have a change of mind about it and turn towards God instead of doctrines a denomination gives you – read the Bible daily.

  • Bill

    As a Roman Catholic and as someone who went to parochial school for the first 8 yerars of schooling that was administered and taught by the nuns, the current events happening in the world are troubling to say the least. So the Evangelical Christians deny that a miracle happened that was by devine and heavenly doings, the over 500 thousands that witnessed the miracle of the ‘dancing sun’ in 1917 can’t be denied. The fact that as Catholics, we believe such in occurrences by virtue of faith and don’t need ‘proof’ scientific or otherwise as such things can’t be proven.