Northern Illinois United Methodist Conference Commissions Deacon Who Identifies as Neither Male or Female

Photo Credit: Reconciling Ministries Network

CHICAGO — The Northern Illinois Conference of the United Methodist Church has commissioned as deacon a woman who identifies as “non-binary,” only uses the letter M for a first name, and prefers the pronoun “they.”

Sally Dyck, the bishop of the conference, commissioned M. Barclay on Sunday, along with three other women approved to serve as provisional deacons.

“Pour out your Holy Spirit upon M,” Dyke said in laying hands on Barclay. “Send them now to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ, to announce the reign of God and to equip the Church for ministry.”

While United Methodists have ordained those who identify as “transgender” before, Barclay is the first who doesn’t wish to identify as any gender.

“For me, once I was exposed to the reality of non-binary gender, it was for the first time recognizing who I am, and what made sense for me in how I carry my body, how I explain myself to the world and how I know myself to be internally. It’s certainly not man nor woman,” she told the United Methodist News Service.

Barclay, who enrolled at the Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary in 2005, says she also came to the conclusion that she was a lesbian following her first year of studies.

“I really struggled for the next year about whether I was going to stay in the Church at all,” she explained to the Washington Post. “I struggled with how much harm the Church had done, not only to LGBT people but to other marginalized people. I wasn’t sure I wanted to be a part of that.”

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Upon graduation, she was hired as a youth director at a United Methodist assembly in Texas and sought to be ordained. However, since she was in a lesbian relationship, a debate ensued as to whether or not she could serve and if she was celibate or not.

The United Methodist Book of Discipline outlines that “the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching” and that “self-avowed practicing homosexuals” may not be ordained as ministers in the denomination.

Being ultimately turned down for ordination, Barclay went on to become the director of communications at “Reconciling Ministries Network,” a United Methodist group that advocates for homosexual and transgender causes.

Because she is not currently in a relationship, she was permitted to be commissioned by the Northern Illinois Conference, and again will face a review in 2019.

“I know it’s not particularly common in the United Methodist Church, but I intend to wear a collar every single day because for a person like me to navigate society in a collar provides some profound and urgently needed pastoral opportunities, particularly for queer and trans people,” Barclay stated.

While some United Methodists have come to embrace homosexuality and transgenderism, not all Methodists have departed from the Scriptures on the issue. The Free Methodist Church released a document in 2015 outlining its desire for fidelity to the word of God.

“We understand the fall of humanity and the consequent orientation toward sin and self that God, in Christ redeems and reverses,” it wrote. “Our identity is only truly perfected in Christ and cannot be fulfilled through sex or any other behavior or bent. Human orientation angles toward sin and self-fulfillment which, at its core, opposes God and correction.”

“The Church at its best has always sought to honor Christ and His word, not simply mirror societal mores back to the society in which it ministers. We are to be Christo-centric, mirroring Christ—His love and truth—in a fallen world.”

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  • Charles Hadden

    wow. end times or what?

    • Parodyx

      End times? Not even close.

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        You must repent of your sin today to get saved.

        • Parodyx

          In your belief system. Not in mine.

          • Charles Hadden

            And what is your belief system?

          • Colin Rafferty

            That is true. Whether the living God of the Bible exists or not is unrelated to anyone’s belief that He does.

          • Parodyx

            The one where you don’t get saved by repenting. And no one talks about the End Times as though they are something you can know.

          • CitizenEmeritus

            +Paradoyx…….not much of a theology there if you don’t believe in repentance for being saved. Created you’re own religion there eh?….now that is a paradox!

          • Parodyx

            I didn’t realize it was so unusual to not adhere to any particular religion.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Christianity is the truth. Ex-christian West became a disasterous Sodom. Pre-christian pagan = barbarism. Post-christian = Sodom. Christianity = truth, light, life.

          • Sharon_at_home

            We do need to follow Christ for salvation, but we also have to live good lives to reflect Jesus’ love for all of us.

            You know what, Parodyx chose his name carefully to bring out the people who make judgements on people based just on a name.

            Do you believe that all men named Jesus are good godly men?

            You see, a name is just a label, it’s not necessarily what it sounds like, it’s just a name. There are many many Mary’s in just the United States, but every single one of them are probably different than the others so you can’t expect every Mary to be the same either.

            You showed your ignorance by pointing out his name like you did.

            You made judgements and mocked someone too. Those are sins. Don’t forget to repent for those things.

            Try to shine your light so others can see it and we can give Glory to Our God. We can’t be mocking anyone because it is not a good reflection of Our Lord, Jesus, after all.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “You know what, Parodyx chose his name carefully to bring out the people who make judgements on people based just on a name.”

            he picked it to wave homosexuality in christians faces ….

          • Sharon_at_home

            You could look at it that way yes, but it was more like a flag to let you know he did not agree with the Christian viewpoint.
            You know what is really funny about the people that were all banned? The majority of them were not gay themselves, they only thought that all people should be treated equally and supported their quest for equality. Just like some Caucasians supported the black movement to gain equality. See how that works, Amos.
            People do not have to be something they support, they can be just supporters, not like the people you so strongly dislike and demean.
            You were demeaning people for being gay when you didn’t even know if they were, you ASSUMED it. You never asked.
            So, not only were you being unchristian-like to hateful to homosexuals because of the sin, when it is the sin you are supposed to hate. And you showed the same hate to people who are not gay. By supporting their stand for equality it has NO SIN to hate. They are not ‘doing’ the sin you accused them of. So you are showing hate towards someone who you have no sin to apply to them. Supporting equality has nothing to do with being gay. It’s about equality. Jesus told us to love each other. You still don’t show any compassion like Jesus did either. Do you think it told us that he felt compassion, just for the story line? It was to show US an example to follow. It was pointing out that Jesus was compassionate, so we should have that attribute as well.

          • Charles Hadden

            That’s not a ‘belief system’, my friend, that’s denial.

          • Parodyx

            Oh, are you one of those people who doesn’t believe in atheists and agnostics?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Read Psalm 14 and John 3. You need salvation. It is an objective truth.

          • Parodyx

            I reject your prescription and question your authority to be prescribing it.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            It is the Word of God. You are a sinful creature and must listen to the Creator God. Repent your sin. Read the Holy Bible.

          • Parodyx

            I don’t feel you correctly understand the “word of God” yourself.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            God sent His Son Jesus to save us, sinners. Accept God’s invitation to repentance and salvation. Why are you in a Christian news site?

          • Parodyx

            Because it is very interesting to see how so many of you can take a perfectly fine idea like Christianity and mine so much nonsense, hatred and bigotry from it.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You don’t seek the truth that can give you life and you just mock. It’s typical of well-fed Western atheists and your problem.

          • Parodyx

            As it happens I am not an atheist and you don’t know how well-fed I am, not that it is relevant to anything.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            But you talk like Western atheists. You guys talk the same like some photocopies, reading the same atheist gurus’ junks. Well-fed people mock what is noble because of being well-fed. USA was good when it was hard-working Christian and wasn’t proud.

          • Parodyx

            I live in Canada, and I do very well without extreme fundamentalist Christianity.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Today’s Canada is a tragedy. It prohibits telling facts about Islam and also rejecting of the homosexual/transgender sins. In the nation that was created to spread Christianity at that! The English are good only when they achieve the Christian ideals. Read the Canada’s founding monuments. Sing all the verses of the national anthem.

          • Parodyx

            We do just fine here without your misdiagnosis. Have a lovely day.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            No, you are not. Former Western Christendom is going extinct by childlessness because you only worry about your retirement and nothing else. You’ve been better-off only because of Christian virtues in the land and nothing else.

          • Parodyx

            So now it’s childlessness and retirement that you are throwing into your never-ending bag of things to hate and demonize. Ask yourself this question Grace, why would anyone want to believe what you do?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            It’s prophesied and observed. You are not fine. Not at all. Admit the fact. The West must stop blaspheming, killing the babies, and spreading homosexual immorality.

          • Parodyx

            You’re crazy.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call. …Be saved from this perverse generation.” (Acts ch. 2)

          • Dianne

            Grace, South Korea MUST ALSO STOP blaspheming, killing the babies, and spreading homosexual immorality.
            JUDGE NOT, that ye be not JUDGED.
            Matthew 7:1

  • Amos Moses

    i prefer the pronoun “it” ………… so is “it” an inny or an outy ….. or both ….. or neither …… NOPE …… just a nonregenerate sinner lying to himself and the world ….. and the same who believe “it” ……….

    • Colin Rafferty

      Well, they prefer the pronoun “they”. If you have basic respect, you use the pronoun they prefer. It’s not hard, is it?

      Or you can choose to be a jerk and use a different pronoun.

      • Amos Moses

        no … if they have RESPECT ….. then they can RESPECT the BIOLOGY and SCIENCE that says what “it” is saying is complete and utter nonsense …… and quit treating EVERYONE like they are stupid ………… oh ….. and use a CORRECT PRONOUN ……

        • Colin Rafferty

          As I said. You can choose to be polite, our choose to be a jerk.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Don’t use the j-word.

          • Amos Moses

            and i do not respect people who treat other people as stupid ……. and if that makes me a jerk in YOUR eyes ……. then color me “SHOCKED” ……….

          • Sharon_at_home

            Amos I can’t believe you just said that! OMGoodness! You treat other people like that all the time in your posts.
            So I guess that would mean you are a Jerk and a liar.
            Do you not read your own posts either? Do you not know what rude remarks you have made?
            Does this mean you have NO SELF RESPECT Amos?
            You probably have not read this far lol but,
            God bless Amos.
            Keep striving to be more like Jesus every day.
            Good luck with that.

          • Amos Moses

            i do not treat people as if a lie is just as good as the truth ………….. sorry ………. and MMMMMM is trying to convince everyone of a thing directly opposed to truth and common sense and reality ….. and if it offends them to be told they are liars ….. not my problem …. rude …… i do not care …… jerk …. i do not care ……

            “Does this mean you have NO SELF RESPECT Amos?”

            i seek the respect of no man …… not even me ………… do you seek to please men ….. or please God …..

          • Amos Moses

            2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
            2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
            2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

          • Sharon_at_home

            So what is your point about a scripture that is referencing the law of circumcision?
            God did not approve of separating the Jews and the Gentile as we are all under God’s Grace. This was shown when Peter was shown by God
            15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

            This has two MEANINGS Amos. One was so Peter would not be rude to the Gentiles when he visited Cornelius the centurion and not eat the food he was offered.

            The other meaning is that no one person is to be considered ‘common’ as the Jews viewed the Gentiles.

            So what is your point to this scripture? I did ask you to put your point in your comment, so I do not err about what you intend to show with a post of scripture. JUST the scriptures tell me nothing. Especially when it is not about the comment you are replying to.

            So IF I DID NOT ANSWER WHAT YOU WERE POINTING OUT, it is strictly because of THIS.

          • Amos Moses

            this passage shows that we are to confront those in error ………. plain and simple …..

          • Sharon_at_home

            Ok so that’s your opinion and I accept it as your opinion, but I don’t take anything back about the situation because what I said is MY opinion. I’ve shown you before that we can disagree and still be able to discuss the differences in our faiths.
            The biblical role of deacons is to take care of the PHYSICAL and LOGISTICAL needs of the church so that the Elders/ Pastors can concentrate on their primary calling.
            So which are you saying she does not meet the description of the duties of a Deacon. There is no indication she will have anyone’s soul in her hands, she will not be teaching. She will be working on how the things they need to have will be gotten, be put in place and used; Having those duties, could lead to her repentance. Only God can know.

            (Where Deacons are explained in the Bible. Acts 6:1-6 )

          • Amos Moses

            1 Timothy ……..
            3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
            3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
            3:10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
            3:11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
            3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
            3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

            she does not qualify on the grounds of…..
            1. Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife – a woman cannot be a wife
            2. being found blameless. – she is not blameless if she denies her sex
            3. not doubletongued – she is lying about her sex

            so biblically NOT qualified ………………..

      • Amos Moses

        University of Arizona Scholar Identifies as a Hippopotamus

        27 May 2017 … This article explores the formation of a tranimal, hippopotamus alter-ego. … me: being a hippo means that I don’t have to be a boy or a girl, a child or … Man Turns $50,000 into $5.3 Million (Here’s How He Did It)Investing Daily.

        Guess what ….. this person AINT NO HIPPO ….. no matter how much he may think so …….. and MMMMM AINT anything but an “IT” until he get HIS mind right …….

      • CitizenEmeritus

        +Colin Rafferty: Or you can use a more accurate term than the politically correct ones forwarded for political agenda purposes……or, as you say, you can be a ‘jerk’ and get sucked into a world view that will morally degenerate from the inside. Is that the kind of ‘jerk’ you want to be…..or is it another kind of ‘jerk’ you want associated with your comments?

        • Colin Rafferty

          You always have a choice of being polite to a person or not. You can think that being rude is making you a better person, for not falling into the trap of accepting people for who they are. But that doesn’t change the fact that you are rude.

          • Cuddy Nabilse

            Colin, that woman has a messed up view of herself and I’m disappointed in the United Methodist Church allowing this to prevail and even promoting it. It’s not about politeness but about right and wrong.

          • Colin Rafferty

            It’s also rude.

          • CitizenEmeritus

            +Colin Rafferty….once again…this is a far more serious issue than your feeling offended by the bold words of this thread. It would be advised that you look inward and determine why you feel offended by those who simply are stating what is in the Bible.

          • CitizenEmeritus

            +Colin Rafferty….sorry about your sensitivity of ‘being rude’—you apparently don’t understand that this is a matter of eternal life and death—both for Dyck and those she leads down a path of perdition. I would imagine you think the Apostle Paul was ‘rude’ for being bold in his proclaiming of the scripture! You might want to get some Biblical backbone and look at the issue here….not your apparent feelings of being offended.

          • Colin Rafferty

            We weren’t talking about Bishop Dyck, but about M Barclay, the person who prefers being referred to using the genderless singular “they” rather than “he” or “she”. Amos here (and Cuddy below) think that it is more important to preach the gospel than to treat a person with simple respect.

            I’m not arguing the correctness of the Bible, but what these people are choosing to do. Just because you are preaching the Bible doesn’t mean it is impossible to be rude at the same time.

            By the way, Heather Clark, the author of the article is also being insensitive by continuously referring to Barclay as “she” and “her” rather than their preferred pronoun.

          • CitizenEmeritus

            +Colin Rafferty….if you want to get to the real matter of this issue you’ve got to get beyond this whole sensitivity issue of being ‘rude’. As stated, this is far more important than whether or not you are offended or not. The issue is that of life and death. It’s time to cut through the crap of whether or not you are offended or not….and get to the Biblical issues that are important. That’s the only thing that matters.

          • Colin Rafferty

            +CitizenEmiritus, you can choose to preach The Word to Barclay, and also use the singular “they”. You can do both! At the same time!

            You can try to convince Barclay that they are going to hell if they keep this up, and also be polite and use “they” and “them” and “their” when referring to Barclay. You can be both helpful and polite, at the same time.

            Or you can preach The Word, and also be rude by referring to them as “her”. Why choose to be rude when you don’t need to be? In fact, by being polite, they will be more apt to listen to you, if that’s really your intent.

          • CitizenEmeritus

            +Colin Rafferty……This is the time to be crystal clear on Biblical theology. It’s denominations like the United Methodists who would rather blur what is said Biblically and confuse those who either 1) don’t want to take the time to read the scriptures, or 2) deny what is stated. You are the one to bring in what you think might be ‘rude’ for those who need to hear and read the gospel…. no one else. What many of us on this thread are saying is that this has nothing to do with your emotional failures in how you read truth….and yet turn it into something mushy for snowflakes to feel is ‘nice’ for them to take as that truth. Get over your view of what is rude or not….you’ll find much in the Old Testament and the New Testament you might define as ‘rude’ if you so desire. It only deflects from truth….and what is more important—that you are offended, or that the Truth is being told? Get a grip and live a vibrant faith—not one based on your emotional feelings!

          • Colin Rafferty

            Please read what I write, not what you think I write. I am not saying it is rude to explain the Bible. I am not saying it is rude to discuss with a fellow Christian how they may getting it wrong.

            I am saying it is rude to fail to use “they” when referring to Barclay.

            If you wonder why people are not hearing your message, maybe it’s because you are already not listening to them.

          • CitizenEmeritus

            That is such a deflection of the real issue at hand….if you want to choose words you think someone will accept… will end up not speaking truth at all. If the Apostle Paul, and even Jesus had used that method we would not have the beacon of truth we have today, It would have been some sort of political and emotional speech that would have no value at all. Do you think the Jewish leadership was offended by Christ’s ‘rude’ behavior by saying He was the Son of God? What would you have had him say…that he was a relative, or someone close to the Creator without saying He was God incarnate? You should know that offended many who heard Him…..He didn’t mince words worrying he might be considered ‘rude’!

          • Colin Rafferty

            +CitizenEmeritus, Amos and I were having a discussion about politeness in using singular they. You are the one choosing to hijack that discussion.

            Here’s another way to be rude: join a conversation and then complain that the people already in that conversation are discussing the wrong thing.

            If you are uninterested in discussing pronoun usage, the polite thing to do is not reply.

          • Amos Moses

            good one ……….

          • Sharon_at_home

            I hope he blocked both of you. You lose! He was one of the few people that put an effort into a discussion with you so now you lose one of the people you might have been able to convert. God won’t like that.
            You both don’t seem to understand that we cannot know who is able to be converted NO MATTER what you think you know. God is the only one that knows who will choose with their free will to follow Him.
            Even if you mock Colin you are making Christians look bad, because others come here and read the comments without making comments. One of those might read your post and get farther away from believing and you aren’t even aware of it.
            Stop making the rest of the Christians get a bad reputation. You are the ones going against God’s Word by behaving the way you do, and by making Christians look bad instead of shining your light to bring people to Christianity with it and bring glory to the Father.
            If you must be rude, please be rude to each other. no one else wants to hear it.

          • Amos Moses

            and why should i care if Colin blocked me ….. sorry ….. i never block anybody ….. what a pointless gesture ……… and if you did not realize it ….. there was nothing to lose ……

            “You both don’t seem to understand that we cannot know who is able to be converted NO MATTER what you think you know.”

            i absolutely understand that ….. and i also understand that their conversion is NOT UP TO ME …… so i am free to speak Gods words …… and i do not have to be concerned with others reactions to Gods words ………. not my problem ………

            you OTOH are too concerned that others think well of you …………

          • Amos Moses

            “I hope he blocked both of you. You lose!””God won’t like that.”

            and 1. how do you think you know that and why would you “hope” that …… 2. Christ will not lose even one ….. so your statements are patently false ……….. 3. am i more saved if i do it your way ….. 4. why are you concerned with how YOU look …….. 5. they are never going to come with their idolatry still intact ………..

          • Amos Moses

            sadly …. Colin seems to have evaporated in to the ether-net ………

          • Bob Johnson

            So, what do you think of the Southern Baptists latest revision of the New International Version of the Bible?

          • Amos Moses

            Political Correctness is nothing less than mind control …..
            1. Cause people to worry about offending those around them
            2. Once afraid to speak out, then afraid to think it
            3. Once afraid to think it, it is never spoken
            4. Control of the public is achieved

          • Sharon_at_home

            Why exactly should he just accept rudeness from anyone? You don’t have to be rude to someone to discuss something with them. It’s actually better if you don’t.
            Colin and I have talked about it and he has looked deeply into his soul to decide how he feels about the bible and other matters of the world. He made his decision by looking at both sides of the issue and based it on a decision based on that information. Don’t you admire him for having the maturity and intelligence to actually decide for himself instead of just going by a preacher instead of the bible like you seem to.
            I don’t think speaking boldly could ever be defined as rude because it is not directed at a specific person; It was always directed at a group when he spoke boldly about the gospel.
            You seem to think it is okay to be rude to select individuals and that you won’t find a follower of Jesus acting like you are.
            You really have to start shining your light for the glory of God.
            Otherwise you could lose your salvation and it won’t be anyone’s fault but your own.
            BTW I’m a 60 year old sister of faith, and I guess I am “too sensitive” to want to see rude behaviour by one of the people that I regard as a brother to anyone. Whether you believe in this harsh Jesus or not, you have to behave in a good manner. So please try not to be rude to others please. There are other people here that are offended by rude remarks.
            God bless

      • EricBenndorf

        Colin is engaged in what is called “virtue signalling.” All the cool kids are doing it today.

        • Colin Rafferty

          The proper term is called “being an ally”.

          Amos, on the other hand, is engaged is what is called “bigot signaling”.

  • parquet

    Oh, wonderful. The Methodists keep on trying to shrink their church.

    Does anyone think this little publicity glutton is a committed Christian? Of course not. She’s as self-absorbed as a two-year-old. You can’t serve Christ and your own ego.

    • Grace Kim Kwon

      Churches disobeyed God by ordaining females first. Those disobedient social clubs eat their own fruits of disobedience. Romans 1.

    • Sharon_at_home

      So what do you think should be done about the situation?
      How do you know that she is not a devout Christian just because of her preferred genderlessness? Can you read her heart like God can? No of course not.
      IMO This is honestly one of those things we should just leave to God. It was described in the bible about what the world was going to be like and we can’t change what God has already decided about the World, can we?
      Only God can know her heart, and only God has the right to judge her. We may feel it is an error for the church to allow, but we shouldn’t judge when for all we know, God put her in that place for a reason. He uses everyone to do different duties to bring people to salvation. Maybe He knows that she will bring certain people to the church that will be important in other Godly situations. We cannot know what God plans, but we certainly know that He is control. Even beyond what the enemy can do. If he does not want the enemy to do it. He has total control. So if He allowed this to happen in a Church, He sees it as a way to do something we can’t see.

      I could not see a person that acted like a 2 year old child. I don’t understand what they had to deal with, because I am not the same, but she seemed to have made an effort to understand who she was in God as well. She feels the way she does, but it must not feel like God cares about an asexual identity, but about her heart. He might see in her something we don’t, and he might know that in the future she will lead a lot of people to him for Salvation. We cannot know the things of God for they are higher than our thoughts.
      I think we need to show more trust towards God about what is happening. He needs us to trust Him in everything.
      I hope this helps.
      God Bless!

      • Amos Moses

        “How do you know that she is not a devout Christian just because of her preferred genderlessness? Can you read her heart like God can? No of course not.
        IMO This is honestly one of those things we should just leave to God.”

        How do we know …. you answered your own question …. “her preferred genderlessness” ….. THATS HOW ……….. “Can you read her heart like God can?” ….. we do not have to ….. HER ACTIONS SPEAK TO THE CONTENTS OF HER HEART ……..

        “This is honestly one of those things we should just leave to God”

        NO …. IT IS NOT …. that is not good stewardship of HIS CHURCH ….. and it is HIS CHURCH …… not OUR CHURCH ……………

        now you are really making me angry ……….

        • Amos…are you sure that this person isn’t a troll ID pretending to be Christian, in order to get a rise out of you?

          I’m just concerned brother, as I’ve noticed that you’ve gone back-and-forth with this person for a while.

          • Amos Moses

            she ….if it is a she … may or may not ….. s/he may be a person known to me using a different name …… does not really make a difference ….. she continues to say things unbiblical and they need to be silenced ……… but thnx Adam ….. i love you brother ……. my anger is mental not physical …… it is really just great annoyance ………. peace …..

          • Grace and peace to you also, brother.

            Both you and I know (especially from out days on Charisma News) that these folks relentlessly run multiple IDs in an attempt to further spread their propaganda and confusion. Satan knows he has but a short time.

            Let’s finish the race strong!

          • Edward Borges-Silva

            I rarely post here, though I post in other places on these very issues. While I hold to the traditional position regarding what the bible teaches about sexuality, I always try to engage people carefully and with generosity of spirit. Having read several of Sharon_at_home’s posts in this thread, I don’t get the sense that she is functioning as a Troll. I think she genuinely believes her argument. I also think her argument is fuzzy, and has a number of theological errors…but a Troll? Probably not. “Progressive” or “Liberal” Christians generally are sincere in their views and often resist admonition even when Christians who hold more orthodox perspectives try to instruct them on clear biblical precepts..

        • Sharon_at_home

          part 1 so they are short.
          Do you really think that anyone is lost before the time of their death?
          All sorts of experiences make people turn to the Lord. You can never be positive that a particular person is eternally lost. For one thing, you are not supposed to judge the person, just the sin.
          And ALL JUDGMENT OF PEOPLE IS GOD’S RESPONSIBILITY NOT OURS, until we are in heaven and we have to judge others. That’s in heaven, not on earth.
          People could change if they are shown the way. Even you can’t deny that.
          Not everything is as it seems because God controls it. Our lives are already decided by God, including the times that we use our free will because it has been in the book of life.

          But the fact that she is a devout Christian
          could lead her back to Jesus and lead her to back to salvation.

          YOU DON’T KNOW
          what her purpose in that position is FOR GOD. God controls all things
          even when they are done with our free will because He knows before it
          happens. He knows everything. *Continued

          • Amos Moses

            Do you really think that anyone is lost before the time of their death?

            ALL are lost and have gone out of the way ………… Romans

            3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
            3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
            3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
            3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
            3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
            3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
            3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
            3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
            3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
            3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

            “For one thing, you are not supposed to judge the person, just the sin. ”

            no scripture for that ….. we are to JUDGE RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENT ………….

        • Sharon_at_home

          part 2 Question Amos
          You keep telling me that you cannot lose your salvation. Right?
          Well, the “Deacon” in this article was an Anglican growing up so she likely was baptized just like you were when she was a baby. If that is what you base your own salvation with, then she has “lost” her salvation according to you, by becoming genderless. According to you, it won’t matter that she has been given the gift of salvation in any way, because this is the final chance to repent and receive Salvation from the Lord.
          Well, I’m sorry Amos, she could turn back to Jesus and you cannot discern that like God can because He can see her future. He’s already decided what will happen with her. Humans cannot make the judgement about what is going to happen in the future. Only God can.
          Not only that, but Jesus said some will turn back to the faith before the end, so we have to keep encouraging people to stay with God or lose our Salvation for not continuing the duty of spreading the gospel, and about repentance of sin. more to come….

          • Amos Moses

            she is a NEVER WAS ….. nothing was lost ….. she was a pretender ….. and she still pretends ….. God/Christ can change that ….. but has not yet ….. and it is OBVIOUS …………

          • Bob Johnson

            Yet again we get the No True Scotsman.

          • Amos Moses

            no true Bob Johnson …… DOES NOT APPLY ………

        • Sharon_at_home

          Part 3 Some shall depart from the faith

          1 Timothy 4:
          1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the Latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
          2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
          3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

          One of the things I’ve pointed out many times, but you fail to see that it is not only the end times that people can depart at any time whether they have had the water baptism or not. The people will at the end in larger numbers, but people can fall and not get back up to stand with the Lord at any time.

        • Sharon_at_home

          Should I worry about something in particular if you are getting angry Amos.
          I’d personally like WARNING before you push to have me banned please and Thank you.

          Hypothetically speaking
          What would you do if you were in contact with God to do a specific duty for him, using your gift of knowing the scriptures, and the person you are trying to teach is constantly trying to test your patience. Do you continue to try to teach, or do you give up and let God down?
          What do you think you would do, Amos?
          It’s about whether you obey God, or give up on the responsibility that God gave to you.
          I honestly would like to know if you would obey God’s Will if you are hypothetically in this situation and losing your patience.

          • Amos Moses

            i have no power to ban anyone … not my site …. not my call …. i have absolutely no authority here to do anything and i can be banned at a moments notice by the controlling powers here …………….. nor have i ever sought to get anyone banned ………. EVER ………… it is THEIR HOUSE and THEIR RULES ….. i am here by their GRACE and nothing else ………

          • Sharon_at_home

            I appreciate your honesty in that situation. Thank you.

        • Sharon_at_home

          The point here is that unless you attend this church you have nothing you can do about this situation. The only place you would have any reflection from something like this, is the church you attend. So let’s agree that it’s His Church being taken care of by (insert leaders name here) from the article.

          We cannot actually DO anything Amos about this situation, so we leave it up to God and pray. If we had been a part of that church we would have to find another church to worship because of our belief, but that does not mean others will do the same, or that the church will consider what you want at all.

          We have to accept our limits by the government and also to what we can and what we cannot accomplish in this world and do what we can to further spread the Gospel. We are not responsible for telling every single person what their sin is. We cannot judge whether someone will turn around and accept Jesus, either.

          • Amos Moses

            “The point here is that unless you attend this church you have nothing you can do about this situation.”

            WRONG ………….

            1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
            1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
            1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
            1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
            1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
            1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
            1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
            1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

            1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
            1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
            1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.
            1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
            1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
            1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

  • The Dove

    “Upon graduation, she was hired as a youth director.” Yep, you can count on these people always getting access to kids. How many young people’s lives have been irreparably damaged by these predatory “Christians”?

    She claims she seriously thought about leaving the church. Yep, they always say that too. But they prefer to stay and work to destroy it from the inside.

    • Colin Rafferty

      What did M do to predate on the children? Did they sexually abuse the children? Steal their lunch money?

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        Those people teach children and everyone else immorality because they themselves live immorality. They should leave Christianity if they are going to counter Christianity in such a basic level.

        • Colin Rafferty

          You have a bad habit of answering a question with an unrelated comment. The Dove claims that M is predating on children. And sexually abusing them. How is M doing this?

          • CitizenEmeritus

            +Colin Rafferty: “Predating” is not a word, so it’s hard to know what in the world you are talking about! In the comment of “The Dove”, nowhere does it state that children are being sexually abused. Perhaps you have responded to the wrong thread….Or you are inventing a conversation that has not taken place.

          • Colin Rafferty

            You are right. The Dove did not explicitly say they were being sexually abused. She said “How many young people’s lives have been irreparably damaged by these predatory “Christians”?” So maybe you know how the children are being preyed upon.

          • Sharon_at_home

            “Yep, you can count on these people always getting access to kids. How
            many young people’s lives have been irreparably damaged by these
            predatory “Christians”?”

            I took this out of the comment by “the Dove” above.

            Do you not recognize the inference she made to “these people” about how the woman said straight out that she viewed them as pedophiles?

            I am honestly not sure why you feel Colin is misunderstanding the comment when it states it out quite bluntly.

            I expect Colin was disagreeing with her statement because “the people” are not ALL predators, and are actually very few compared to “the other people” so he was just stating a fact, not misunderstanding the comment.

            It was not a statement that children are being sexually abused, but it was a way to say it clearly so people would understand and believe an erroneous personal opinion. Colin was just pointing out the truth of the matter. (I did not have to see his comment as I know how Colin posts)


    • Chris

      “Yep, they always say that too.”

      Who’s ‘they’?

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    Stay away from the United Methodist Church, the Sodomic apostates. Humanism’s ultimate insanity. The Church should never have centered around the humanism; it’s been the Methodists’ deadly pitfall.

  • Nate B

    When will people wake up!? Christians we cannot allow the LGBT agenda to infiltrate our churches any further.. The Bible is very clear on this matter, are we now not going to recognize the authority of the Word of God?

  • Luminous

    Her name is Mary Ann Barclay, she is a woman, and using “they” or “them” to refer to an individual person is not correct English. This is the disturbing thing about this whole movement, coercing others to participate in a lie. Most of the newspapers covering this event play along with it, never mentioning her real name, and using “they” to refer to Mary Ann Barclay. It’s not about “inclusion,” it’s about coercing other people.

    • Colin Rafferty

      So people are not allowed to choose their own names? No name changes allowed! Your parents have the final say! And random strangers on the internet.

      As for the “singular they”, that’s getting pretty well established in English as being a gender-neutral first person pronoun.

      • CitizenEmeritus

        +Colin Rafferty…you really have been drinking the kool-aid! People can “choose their own names”….they cannot define who they want to be when the definition does not fit. If you want to be a Peacock….just saying you are doesn’t make you one! A dictionary might come in handy for you from time to time.

        • Colin Rafferty

          M is not asking you to accept their redefinition of themself, just use a pronoun that does not refer to gender.

          Why would you find it so hard to be polite to someone?

          • Amos Moses

            M …. and you …. are DEMANDING that we accept a clear lie ………… why should we be polite to a person or persons who are LYING to us ….. BOLD FACED …………

          • Colin Rafferty

            Because you learned in Kindergarten to be polite to people. Or at least, I did.

            M is just asking not to be identified with a gender. They are not asking to be identified as male, which according to you, would be a lie. They are asking to not be thought of in terms of gender. Why do you feel the need to assign gender?

          • Amos Moses

            nope ….. liars who are lying to me show me no respect …… and they get sent to the corner in kindergarten ……….

          • Colin Rafferty

            So your claim is that they are lying that they feel this way. Based on what evidence do you think they are lying about how they feel?

          • Amos Moses

            nope ….. she has accepted a lie and is now FOISTING that lie on the rest of us …………

          • Colin Rafferty

            So what are they lying about, if not how they feel about themself.

          • Sharon_at_home

            So you know it’s a lie. You don’t believe it. Why are you arguing with someone about it? Liars will be liars regardless of whether we know or not. You cannot judge anyone by the heart like God can so you have no authority to even say she is lying. Only God can say that with not doubt in it, about an inside emotion.

            Were you one of those kids that told on other classmates when they lied about something Amos. Or were you the one that was caught in a lie when you were a kid?
            I had 4 older siblings so I did not have the chance to lie because they got to my parents before me. Besides when I did take a chance and lied I always turned bright red and exposed it. But when you think about it, you can’t tell if anyone lies in this day and age because we cannot see them to watch their body language and decide whether or not they are telling the truth.
            You cannot honestly know what her belief in her identity in God is even though you think you do. Maybe God has plans for her to change and be a spokesperson to others in the same positions. Amos, let God do His business and don’t stress yourself out so much about what other people do. Let Go and Trust God.

          • Amos Moses

            not sure what any of that has to do with anything ….. emotionalism ………..

          • Amos Moses

            her “FEELS” are IRRELEVANT ………..

          • Sharon_at_home

            Then it seems to me that your “FEELS” are too. If you can’t respect someone elses ‘feelings’ then why should anyone show respect for you with that attitude of yours?

          • Amos Moses

            yawn ………

          • Amos Moses

            “Then it seems to me that your “FEELS” are too”

            well you finally got one right …………

          • Sharon_at_home

            So you answered the first positive thing in my post instead of something wrong. Did you miss something, Amos?

          • Amos Moses

            my “feels” are completely irrelevant ……….. you got that right ………

          • Amos Moses

            “M is just asking not to be identified with a gender.”

            then SHE is asking me to believe her LIE ………..

          • Amos Moses

            “Why do you feel the need to assign gender?”

            why do you think she is EXEMPT from biology …………..

          • Colin Rafferty

            I’m not saying they are exempt. They just prefer to not be defined by it. They are a pastor, a friend, an artist, a child, a sibling. They are many things that they may choose to be identified with. And choose to not be identified by gender.

            I am a husband, father, man, computer programmer, soccer referee. And don’t mind being identified as any of those. OTOH, I am also a failed pianist, and prefer not to be identified that way.

            “In the news tonight, Colin Rafferty, failed amateur pianist, celebrated his 50th birthday.”

            No, not good at all.

            Similarly, M prefers to not be identified by gender.

          • Sharon_at_home

            He wants us to be polite at all times because it is a show of loving each other like Jesus told us to show.
            Just a Question for you Amos?
            Do you not prefer to be treated with respect and listened to for your knowledge of the bible so they can learn from you?
            I prefer to be treated with respect from everyone as I do not give a reason not to respect me. It is the “Treat people the way you want to be treated” thing that Jesus spoke of. If you treat someone else with respect, they will usually speak to you with respect too. So when you want to be listened to, treat the people you are talking to with respect. If you don’t, then you cannot expect them to respect you and it will be useless for you because it will not teach anyone anything.
            People cannot make you believe anything you don’t want to believe Amos. The point of discussions is to help each other understand each other’s side, not to jump on each other about our beliefs. How will these people (or the readers who are silent) be able to learn from you about your religion without that?
            If you want a real discussion you have to be prepared to listen to the other side so when you are presenting God’s side, you can teach them with the hopes of changing them to seek God. You never know who you can reach in a situation like this. Tell people about God without criticizing what they believe now or they won’t listen to your message about God.
            It’s simple as that Amos.
            God bless!

          • Amos Moses

            no …. Christ called people out with harsh words many times ….. do we really need to post Matthew again to disprove this silly line of idolatry you have …………

          • Sharon_at_home

            For the umpteenth time, Our religions see things differently, so stop saying I am all about this idolatry. It’s just childish Amos. I want an ADULT discussion not a childish one.
            Look if you would just read the gospel again, and try to understand it by what it means for goodness sake. You can’t read scripture without understanding it properly and that means you have to interpret it for understanding. So, read what Jesus said to the multitudes and how he told us to behave, and admit that the fact that the last commandments are totally about love. Do you think Jesus was harsh with the Multitudes then?
            and you still have not answered my question, It is my question to you so you are the one that has to answer it, just like I answer all yours, even if you don’t read it all.
            How do you apply the second commandment “love thy neighbour as thyself” to your life. Or how do I apply it to my life. which ever. It is a question for you not me, I have patiently – with Longsuffering from the Fruits of the Spirit – answered one question after the other that You asked. Now it’s my turn for some answers from you about your religious beliefs.
            Please, tell me how your church tells you to apply it in your life. I’d like to know so I can make a decision with all the facts instead of just my own side of things.

          • Amos Moses

            and there you go with “love” again and no explanation of which love you mean ………..

            “Do you not prefer to be treated with respect and listened to for your knowledge of the bible so they can learn from you? ”

            i speak the scriptures and let the chips fall where they may ….. i have no concern about how others perceive me …… why should i care ……..

          • Sharon_at_home

            I’m sorry, I really don’t understand what your problem is about which Love I mean.

            The only Love that must be defined specifically would be the Greek EROS which is about Passion when it’s used in the Bible to talk about a strong passion, or desire to live according to God’s instructions.
            Otherwise, the other 3 Greek meanings of Love are all used in different places depending of course if they are used to signify one aspect of the meanings.

            Love: Love: AGAPE: Highest love, Unconditional, Self – sacrificial:

            The first two describe a Parents’ love for their children. God considers us his children. The last is the love we should all have for God.

            Love:PHILEO: Friendship, Closeness, Brotherly Love
            Love: Storge: Family Love, Bond among family

            If you were testing me, NICE TRY, YES I do know about the meanings of various words because we learn them in bible study. We study them so we can understand the TRUE MEANING of scriptures by looking at the way the people at the time of Christ looked at what he told them the scriptures.

            This is for you to see where Love is described as one of the attributes that Jesus wanted us to show to everyone.

            Romans 13

            9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF.
            10 Love worketh NO ILL to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of
            the law.
            11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of
            sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
            12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us PUT ON THE ARMOUR OF LIGHT.
            13 Let us walk HONESTLY, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
            14 But PUT YE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST (note: that means ACT like Jesus Christ), and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
            I have some other scriptures to help you know how people are to read the bible with understanding. I’ll post it with the appropriate scriptures soon.

          • Amos Moses

            The only Love that must be defined specifically would be the Greek EROS which is about Passion when it’s used in the Bible to talk about a strong passion, or desire to live according to God’s instructions. ”

            eros is erotic love ….. and it is the basis for the word erotic ………….. so no …….. nothing to do with ……. “desire to live according to God’s instructions” ….. in fact quite the opposite ……….

          • Sharon_at_home

            Keep reading Amos there are 4 Greek words for Love and I explained each word. Try reading the rest of it .
            You asked for this so why are you not reading it all?
            Do you want one reply per Greed Word for Love.
            They are all on this post
            Read the other 3 words for Love since you asked for them. Don’t stop where you “think” it’s wrong, read them all.

          • Amos Moses

            you have explained the words in Greek ….. one not correctly ….. but that does not answer the question ….. WHICH ONE ARE YOU referring to when you say “love” …… and why are you making it to YOUR satisfaction as to how that “love” is expressed …… where is YOUR authority …………

          • Sharon_at_home

            Amos, are you telling me that You are honestly believe that I told you the wrong words and meanings to the 4 greek words that mean Love?
            Which one Amos, you did not make it clear. I did make it clear. if you would read the post right through.

            I told you the other three and gave you the meanings AND THEN I told you that he showed us an example of all three – since you throw out my Eros explanation.

            Jesus used all three ways of using the word love. All in different scriptures.

            Are you reading any of my comments at all? even the small ones when I did it in parts?

            I did it because you don’t like how I write long replies. Are you still not reading my replies to the bottom Amos? Please be honest.

            I can re-post my answer to your which “love” do I mean if you can’t find it again.

          • Amos Moses

            “(note: that means ACT like Jesus Christ)”

            no it does not …. that is what YOU want it to mean …… and your trying to give it that meaning is you making “provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.” ….

            what that means is that Christ is your covering …….. we are not capable of acting like Christ …… we have no ability to do so …… and what you are preaching ….. IS LAW ….. and that is a heavy burden to put on people freed from the law ………. YOU want to put people back under the law ………….. those saved are under GRACE …… not the LAW ……….

          • Sharon_at_home

            Stop making it towards ME and inferring that I am making it up when I have been teaching what I learned FROM THE BIBLE
            Whether YOU agree with what I believe is not as important that you learn the gospel and learn about how you keep your salvation. You are given salvation by grace when you are baptized by water. It does not say it is forever, it says it can be lost by unrepentant sin.
            We are not capable of acting like Christ? Amos, it means to behave as much like Christ as we can. And we are capable of it.
            I am going to make my replies very short and I expect you to read all of it. Please give me the respect that we are to show to sisters and brothers of the faith of Jesus Christ.
            Just read what I wrote when you ask a question. If you read it at all I said it was the only one of FOUR Greek Words for Love. You asked so
            YOU READ IT ALL.
            OK I am going to list some scriptures with an explanation about how to read the bible. I’m going to post them one at a time so you can’t miss one.

          • Amos Moses

            “Stop making it towards ME and inferring that I am making it up when I have been teaching what I learned FROM THE BIBLE”

            it is towards you …. you wrote it …. and you have either mislearned or learned incorrectly ………

          • Sharon_at_home

            No you are mistaken Amos, YOU have either mislearned the gospel or learned incorrectly and for that matter you have no clue about the rest of the gospel beyond the harsh Jesus or you would not be discussing this with me over and over.
            You don’t seem to get the whole picture of what I am trying to do. I am being led by the Holy Spirit to lead you to the rest of the gospel because you are sinning by not applying it to your life!
            I’ve given you scriptures after scriptures to prove everything I say and especially the last commandment flat out saying we are to love one another < how exactly do you think Jesus meant that word of LOVE?
            "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."
            What Word of Love meaning do you think is said in this scripture?
            Agape? Phileo? or Storge? Eros is off the possibles so don't bother with that one. Which one do you think applies to the second commandment Amos.
            I will be waiting for your answer to this.

          • Amos Moses

            ” how exactly do you think Jesus meant that word of LOVE?”

            that is the question that YOU need to answer ….. because you are the one trying to apply that as a NEW LAW …… and until YOU can tell us what that is and HOW YOU can come to some evaluation of that “love” ….. whatever that is …… WITH SPECIFICITY FROM SCRIPTURE …….. you have NO BUSINESS telling anyone how they should be applying it ……….

            here is the thing ……

            “how exactly do you think Jesus meant”

            what i THINK HE MEANT ……………… what YOU think He meant …..

            IS ….. NOT ….. RELEVANT ……………. and even more so ….. YOU are not the arbiter of what that love is and how it is manifested and applied ……..

          • Sharon_at_home

            Can you please stop calling me names and acting like I am one of your enemies. I want to discuss the differences in our beliefs in the gospel. that’s all. Name calling might get me annoyed for a short while, but in the long run, I just find them a waste of time, and childish.
            So what did Jesus say when he said to love our neighbours as thyself.
            Did he mean the people next door to your house, Amos?
            So how do I apply this commandment to my life Amos?

            I do not think you can just “read” this scripture without making a decision about what it means to us in our lives.

            So how would you tell me to apply it to my life – as all scripture is supposed to be applied to our lives.

          • Amos Moses

            and what “name” did i call you ………….

          • Sharon_at_home

            It was intended to do the same as a “name”. You keep inferring that i have created my own scriptures, and that i am either worshiping idols or creating my own idol. I am a sister in faith and you should longsuffer my questions.
            Just discuss the scriptures Amos without the personal opinions about what I say.I just want to know what your understanding of the gospel is.
            How do we get Salvation Amos?

          • Amos Moses

            so it comes down to what “love” means …. and WHO decides its sufficiency ….. and towards what goal ….. and who is due this “love” ….

            “Just as in the days of the Apostles, so at this day we are forced to
            hear from certain denominations that we (by our obstinacy to adhere to
            truth) do offend against love and unity in the churches, because we
            reject their doctrine. It would be better (they say) that we should let
            it pass, especially since the dispute is what they call ‘nonessential’.
            And, to stir up so great a discord and contention in the churches over
            ‘one or two’ doctrines (and those not the most important ones) … is
            ‘unfruitful’ and unnecessary.

            To this I reply: Cursed be that love and unity which cannot be
            preserved except at the peril of the word of God.”

            ~Martin Luther

            Love cannot be demanded ….. anymore than grace or salvation can be demanded ……. and until you are going to define just what you mean by love …. then we are at an impasse …… BTW, your objection seems to be that telling a person the TRUTH ….. about God, themselves, or anything ….. is NOT “loving” them ….. love is NOT just about our “feels” and preserving a persons “feels” about themselves ……..

          • Sharon_at_home

            No Amos because I still tell them that Jesus is the only way and he wants the repentance of sin.
            Whether by your way of looking at it, or not, it’s still about the scripture, and there is nothing you can do to change that. If you don’t read the scriptures with the same understanding because you insist on taking God’s Word only on face value. I told you already that the 3 meanings of love were all used in the gospel.
            God has told us that the way to life is to love him with all our hearts, all our soul, all our minds and strength. He said that in both Testaments.
            If you do not know love, you are not of God, for those who love are of God.
            God IS love.
            1John 4: 7-11
            7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
            8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
            9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
            10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
            11Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

          • Amos Moses

            again … one dimensional and NOT who and what God is …. and you STILL have not said what “love” means …. and WHO decides its sufficiency ….. and towards what goal ….. and who is due this “love” …. i am not in any dispute over what scripture says ….. this is about what you are saying it says and you are not defining with any specificity what that is …………

          • Sharon_at_home

            So which do you believe Amos?
            That there is no Love demanded by God in the OT.
            Each time the commandment about Loving God, it was given by God/ Jesus the first time it is in our bible unless there is a prophecy about it.
            How about this scripture. Does it meet your requirements?
            This is what Moses was told to say by God.
            Deuteronomy 30:16
            16 In that I COMMAND thee this day to LOVE the LORD thy God, to WALK in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

            So Deu. 30:6 proves that God did not say try to love me please, He commanded it and therefore forced it on them.

            Jesus on the other hand gave the command to love God without the demanding way God of the OT did.

            2 John 1:
            5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning,
            that we love one another.
            Another one focusing on Loving Eachother.

          • Amos Moses

            God can demand ….. YOU CANNOT as it adds a requirement to salvation in the way you are trying to use it ……….. i love God as a FRUIT of my salvation ….. NOT because He demands it …… i give it FREELY ………..

            “Jesus on the other hand gave the command to love God without the demanding way God of the OT did.”

            there is NO “God of the OT” and a “God of the NT” …… ummmmm THEY ARE THE SAME GOD ….. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE ……

          • Sharon_at_home

            THAT IS WHEN YOU USED YOUR FREE WILL!!!!!!!!!!!!
            They are the same God but if you look at the temperament of God All Mighty compared to how most people look at how Jesus was. or, like My church does. Kind Loving, protective, providing for us, caring for us, wanting the best for us with all the ‘instructions in the bible< He was more like his Mother Mary in that respect that His father God. That's why some people call it their road map. How can you read the gospel and not see all of that when it is a part of the dialogue that Jesus himself said. ITS THE PART IN RED.
            If you just read the red and nothing else you would still find Jesus talking about love and how it covers all sins because if you love everyone you will not hurt anyone. That's why the 10 commandments were considered all covered with the 2 commandments too. Amos, why can you not look at my scriptures and just discuss them, not attack me for what you think I mean. Because a lot of the time, you are wrong about what I try to say, then you go off on another tangent and I wind up telling you more about my beliefs, and you tell me off for trying to interpret the Word of God.
            I realized that every time you have accused me of not telling the true Word of God I could have turned and accused you of the same thing.
            Who says the way you interpret the bible is the right way? You won't approach every scripture I give you and I think that it is because you can't dispute them.
            You know Amos, considering your Jesus is a harsh God/man, and mine is a Loving God/man, son of God All Mighty who wants to give the Hope of Salvation to everyone for REPENTANCE OF SIN, which do you think will attract more people to their Salvation?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i never said men did not have any free will …. they have a LIMITED free will ….. and the elect have even less free will ……..

            “They are the same God but if you look at the temperament of God All Mighty compared to how most people look at how Jesus was. or, like My church does. Kind Loving, protective, providing for us, caring for us, wanting the best for us with all the ‘instructions in the bible< He was more like his Mother Mary in that respect that His father God."

            sorry ….. that is you, and it seems your church, if what you are saying is true, bring an idolatry to the scriptures ………. there is no disagreement, not change in being or temperament or any other aspect of God from the OT to the NT ….. God DOES NOT CHANGE ……. PERIOD ………..

            tell me …. what is ALL of scripture about …. it is only about one thing …. what is that ……

          • Sharon_at_home


          • Amos Moses – He>i

            It is ALL about Christ …. OT and NT ….. one person and one person only …… Christ ……….

          • Sharon_at_home

            You forget that Jesus was half human. His attitude came from his mother, not his father. She was also a kind, caring , loving person. You do not seem to understand that because he was both God and Human, it wasn’t that God changed, He didn’t. But Jesus was not just God on the earth, he was part human and had human emotions. He was different that God while he was on the earth.
            I understand that your church believes that Mary was “just a vessel”; And therefore Jesus was not part human.

            Spirits cannot die. Human bodies die. Spirits do not bleed. Human bodies do bleed. He had to be part human in order to fulfill the requirements of dying on the cross for our sins. There was no other way that he could satisfy God’s requirements for the reconciliation for our sins through the blood like they did by sacrificing the Animals for atonement. Jesus had to bleed to be the replacement for the blood of animals.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “You forget that Jesus was half human.”

            NO … HE WAS NOT …… He was FULLY human and FULLY GOD ……… you have been taught some very INCORRECT theology and Christology ……….

          • Sharon_at_home

            NO Amos, You have been taught some very Incorrect Theology and Christology.
            Will you please learn that just because other religions don’t agree with the Catholic church, does not mean they are WRONG. YOUR CHURCH IS NOT THE ONLY ‘RIGHT’ WAY TO BELIEVE.
            That is why I am asking questions about your religion. Because I want to know what the differences are. To make a person decision based on more than just the ones that I know. As well as trying to teach you to save yourself because no one is guaranteed Salvation without the second baptism.

            Amos read this to the end if you want to learn a few things about your own church. You really need to be alerted to the sins they make you commit.
            Pride of the belief that they are THEY saved ones, and that they are the “first”church
            Overriding the Word of God with their own words. therefore making you sin by having you do what they changed them to.
            Praying to Idols. Again telling you to go against God’s Word and sin against him.
            Traditions were added to their religion: and they make it official that the Traditions were of EQUAL AUTHORITY with the Bible by the Council of Treat; AD 1545
            That is saying bluntly that they have made their traditions equally with the ones GOD told us to do. How does a church believe it has authority equal or even close to that of God’s Word. Sorry, Nope. No one has any authority about anything in the bible BUT GOD!!
            Here is the explanations for you to be aware of. I’m betting you won’t even read them. I’m listing them for you to know about them. If you don’t agree and continue doing those things that the Church had no right to implement. God will know that you were given an opportunity to open your eyes so these things can be seen and help you towards your Salvation.

            The Catholic Church seems awfully Proud of being what they consider the “first christian church”. The members seem to think they are superior to all others too. God hates pride. Why do you all act like that. You are not the only ones that have been saved. Considering the omissions and additions that your church has done since Jesus was crucified, I think the Catholic Church will be judged as not following God’s commands.
            1) Confession to the Priest: AD 1215
            – Directly against the command of God that JESUS is the ONLY mediator between God and man. He did not make any exceptions when he said that. He never ever said to pray to anyone else for anything. Just Jesus if you want to have God hear it.

            2)Praying to Mary so she could pray to Jesus is just way beyond what the bible says. In the way God views that kind of thing all the way through the bible was that you are using Mary as an Idol because of your reverence for her over your reverence to Jesus shown by you praying to her instead of him. His mother had no influence on Jesus when they were waiting to speak to him. Why would Jesus be persuaded anything when Mary cannot see the heart as he does. She is “just” his mother and not a God in anyway. He may honor her but he has no reason to listen to a second hand plea from her.
            As a matter of fact, They first started praying offered to Mary, dead saints, and angels. in AD 600. Jesus would have told us to do this if he wanted us to. The church decided that they would encourage it. Thereby getting all their followers to disobey God’s Word every time they confess, and every time they pray to idols. If it is not God, it is an Idol when it comes to prayer. That’s shown in the scriptures too.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            first ….. i am not Catholic ….. never told you that …. you are in error ….. now all christians belong to the catholic church …. “catholic” only means universal as God only has one universal church …… that is not the same as the RCC ……and yes …. if what you are saying does not comport to scripture then you are WRONG …… second …. christianity is NOT a religion ….. God HATES religion except as SCRIPTURE defines religion …. and there is only ONE TRUE RELIGION ……

            Jas 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain.
            Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            You misrepresent Catholic teaching badly.

          • Sharon_at_home

            I apologize, please forgive me, if I am. Please correct me where I make /made mistakes and I will add them to my notes.
            I know that some things are correct:
            1. confessing to a priest when the bible said that only Jesus was the mediator between God and man. It is in the scriptures. They are saying they can change the bible and be the authority to hear confessions and give penance which is in essence punishments, when it is Jesus’ authority they are going against.
            2 . Praying to Mary, dead saints, and angels AD 600
            That is the same thing that God showed in the bible. You should not worship other idols. By praying to her to ask her to “intervene” with Jesus. you are doing that. Only Jesus is to be prayed to. He denied her, she was not his mother but the disciples were his brethren. It never gave the impression in the bible that he revered her. There was no show of “mother” reverence even when she asked him to make water into wine, he was patient and kind not angry really at all. At least not in the way Amos sees the Lord God Almighty. he only made the wine because she was his mother and he did not want her shamed by offering what was not hers to give, to the host of the party. But he nudged her so to speak by reminding that it was not his time yet. A gentle rebuke because she was his mother.
            But he said nothing to tell us to pray to her to pray to Jesus – why would you think that Mary had any influence with God when she cannot see what he sees in a person. He knows everything about the person, she cannot. Do you think Jesus would allow her influence to allow a sinner into heaven? no. not likely. he wants it to be pure and holy. If what I heard is right, Catholics also pray to Jesus. It sounds like it would have to be a very serious prayer to feel the need to pray to someone who has no control over what Jesus would do.

            I was aiming at AMOS to try to get him to admit to being Catholic. Apparently he will say what religion he is not, but he must be ASHAMED of his church because he refuses to say what religion he is.

            If you could please copy my post(s) that have information that needs to be corrected I’d appreciate knowing the truth from a Catholic.
            Please help me really know the truth. it would help me understand what is being different that was not given to you because they approve of it. What I said was a combination of what Amos believes, and my bad detective work pegging him as a Catholic and I am sorry I misrepresented Catholics by thinking it. Again please forgive any offense. I said what I’ve been told by X-Catholics. At least most of it. Some are some information a friend gave me I think.
            If you would like me to understand how I was misrepresenting Catholic teaching badly, so I can’t do that again. I will be asking a few people to see if they know about it to confirm any of your information.
            For one thing, everything you say about Catholics must be from the bible scriptures, please.
            God bless you.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            First of all, asking an ex-Catholic about the faith is totally counterproductive. They’re going to try to prove how anti-Catholic they are. Please consult active Catholics.

            Let’s start with Confession which is described in John 20:23. When we confess to a priest as Jesus set forth in this verse, the priest is there to counsel, using the Bible, and to help the penitent avoid sin in the future. Penance is not punishment. It is part of discipleship. As you can see in John 20:23, Jesus gave His apostles the authority to forgive or retain sins in His Name.

            Yes, Jesus is the only mediator between God and man as we see in 1 Timothy 2:5 and mediation is the two way communication between us and the Father which only Jesus can do. Anyone, however, can engage in prayer which is one way to the Father through Jesus. Only God can answer prayer but anyone can pray. We do not pray to Mary or any saint. We ask them to pray for us. Again, only God can answer. The Church has condemned necromancy from Day One.

            Look at Luke 1:48 where it says all generations will call Mary blessed. As for Jesus’ relationship with His mother, He obeyed the commandments perfectly and honored His Father and His mother. Again, Catholic prayers ONLY go through Jesus. If I pray I pray through Jesus and if I ask the Blessed Mother to pray for me, she prays through Jesus too. Intercession and mediation are not the same.

            The Catholic Church teaches the worship of God only. We do not worship Mary, we do not worship the pope, we don’t worship statues, and we don’t worship nature. We only worship God.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Isn’t that a total reversal of “Jesus was all God” and the “Mary was ‘just’ a vessel” that you insisted in your previous posts? Why did you change your mind to include Human to Christ, if he was not born from Mary as any mother has a child.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Christ existed BEFORE the creation ….. He is God and has ALWAYS been God …….. He was not a created being ….. there is no “mind to change” on that ……. He entered into the creation, He condescended Himself, in the manner of men …… but He was always Fully God …….

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            That’s right! You understand the hypostatic union.

          • Amos Moses – He>i


          • BuckeyePhysicist

            In fact, we call Mary “Mother of God” to emphasize the divinity of Christ. A careful read through Luke 1 and 2 is illustrative here.

          • Sharon_at_home

            Seems to me when you told me that you have limited free will it was said to be about choosing not to sin.
            I have given you scripture after scripture to show you that what I am saying is what is in the bible. You just refuse to read them apparently, by focusing on just the first thing you consider WRONG. You really have to learn to discuss things without making judgements about another Christian who loves the same God and wants to obey the same God but, I don’t know, maybe he hid that part of the bible from some people because they were blind to it. He blinded the Jews to the fact that he was the real messiah. He can do anything.
            Too bad you think it’s Satan telling you to read the gospel.
            So what do you think Jesus was doing with Satan during that part of the bible where satan is offering the world to Jesus? Just telling him scripture?
            Just tell me what you understand from this part of the scriptures. You have to understand the scriptures to be able to live with them in your life now. So your church has told you how to interpret the bible – during catechism it was a “child’s version of the bible” which means they would need to know the meanings of the scriptures. That is how you teach children Amos.
            So what did you learn about the time Jesus spent with Satan on the mountain top?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “So what did you learn about the time Jesus spent with Satan on the mountain top?”

            satan, the devil, is GODS devil ….. he is on Gods leash, satan does NOTHING without God allowing him to do so …… satan had no power over Christ …. satan does have power over the governments of this world ….. satan is the prince and the power of the air ……. so he was able to offer those things to Christ ….. as he had a certain ownership of it …… but that was not what Christ was here to do ………..

            “You just refuse to read them apparently, by focusing on just the first thing you consider WRONG”

            no ….. there is just so much error in what you say …… it takes too long to address more than one point …… i am not here to write novels …..

          • Sharon_at_home

            Do you not understand that God allowed Satan to tempt Jesus to sin?
            Your view is more corrupt than I thought. Yes Satan is God’s because EVERYTHING is God’s in this world. But God does not always tell Satan what he can do unless it’s like Job. Satan’s desire is strictly to get Christians to follow Him instead of God. That’s all.
            God lets Satan tempt us to sin, he allows him to try to get Christians to follow him, He even knows the tricks that he will use. Some of them are even mentioned in the bible.

            So you believe that Christ’s ONLY reason for being on earth is to be crucified for reconciliation to God? Why was he on Earth for so long then – why did he teach people and help people and feel compassion for them?
            I used to respect the way you knew scriptures, but now I realize that you don’t know the scriptures at all. Just the select ones that fit into what you want the bible to say. That’s why you can’t handle the idea of a loving God – with an unconditional love for us.
            Sorry. God is love. there is no hate in Love. They are opposites, they cannot include each other in their meanings. Hate is a state without love. So if you are without love, you are not of God. according to the scriptures.

            You are corrupting scriptures like you keep opining that I am the one doing that to scriptures. It’s not a good feeling when you ‘KNOW” you are right and someone says that, is it. Well you are corrupting God’s message to the world.
            YOU have no concept of the LOVE that God wants us to be filled with.
            YOU have no concept on how to spread the gospel so people will desire to come to Jesus.
            YOU don’t even understand God’s gift of free will.
            How can YOU say you are a Christian, let alone one of the elect when you don’t use the whole bible, and not just cherry picking scriptures?
            How can you use the bible as a tool to help you live well in this century unless you understand what the bible is saying and interpret what it really means.
            You are the one remiss in your education, Amos. I know more than you do about God just from the 8 years I’ve been following Jesus. You on the other hand only know and believe what you are told at church, instead of learning the Word of God on your own first. Your priests must have SUPER BORING sermons with the way you say you cannot interpret the bible. You don’t seem to understand what the bible is saying because of that attitude and you are ignoring a lot of the Gospel. It’s up to you to make sure you are going to be saved. He gave us Salvation by His Grace, he did not say he would ignore un-repented sin just because he gave you grace. Repentance is all about sin. Nothing else. If you don’t recognize the sin you do, it will not be excused by God if you were told that you are doing it, and did not repent.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “YOU have no concept of the LOVE that God wants us to be filled with.
            YOU have no concept on how to spread the gospel so people will desire to come to Jesus.
            YOU don’t even understand God’s gift of free will. ”

            that is all GODS work …. it is not mine …. Gods word does not return void ….. it either draws or repels …. it is not my choice ….. it is GODS WILL …….. and it is NOT our presentation that is the issue ….. it is the heart of the hearer ……….

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            lots of emotionalism …….

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Satan’s desire is strictly to get Christians to follow Him instead of God. ”

            satan cares not if you follow him or not …… just as long as you do not follow God …….. you can follow a carrot for all he cares ……..

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “How can YOU say you are a Christian, let alone one of the elect when you don’t use the whole bible, and not just cherry picking scriptures?”

            i am supplying the parts you will not ……..

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            AGAIN …..

            “Why Amos. Do you think I’m going to answer something like it wasn’t God. ”

            So it is God …. WHOM YOU WERE SAVED FROM ……….. God saved you FROM HIMSELF ……… He did not save you from His “love” ……. He saved YOU FROM HIS WRATH ………
            and when God had His own Son crucified on the cross …… that was GODS WRATH being poured out ….. ON HIS OWN SON ……. for OUR SINS …… NOW ………..

            WAS THAT LOVE …………..was that God showing “love” ……….. YES OR NO ………

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Eight-Year-Old Drag Queen: If Your Parents Won’t Let You Do Drag, ‘You Need New Parents’

            sexualization of children is wrong ….. how do you not get that ………

          • Sharon_at_home

            Why would the Elect have less free will than anyone else? That makes no sense, really. We are doing what God wants us to do with our free will every time Amos. God does not make us do anything. Everything done by humans is done with their free will.
            You really have to read the gospel to meet the God/Human that Jesus was. He was different than God because of his human side while he was on earth. Once he died he became only a spirit – God. The human part did not have it’s own spirit (soul), as God was the spirit. this amazes me Amos. that you were never taught about the love in the gospel. The agape love, the highest love, the unconditional love. That’s what Jesus was. Love. God is Love; Jesus is Love. It’s right there in the OT and the NT. Do you speed read and skip over parts or something?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Why would the Elect have less free will than anyone else? ”

            certain men are the chosen of God, and chosen by God …… they have no choice in the matter …….. there was no free will choice to say yes or no …… and once saved ….. for the most part …… they have no choice to sin egregiously ….. they are not prevented ….. but that new creation comes with a renewed mind that keeps the elect from most sin …. not all sin …. we are all still in the flesh ….. we all still sin …. but far, far less …..

            “God does not make us do anything. Everything done by humans is done with their free will. ”

            LIMITED free will ………..

            “Once he died he became only a spirit – God.”

            NO ….. Christ retained His earthly form ….. in a GLORIFIED body ….. that we will all attain upon our death and resurrection …….. Christ is with the Father NOW …. in His Glorified BODY ……

          • Sharon_at_home

            It’s actually about a lot of things, Amos. But one of the biggest things that God wanted from us is for us to obey his commands. Right? Here is 12 scriptures from the Gospels that tell us to love one another. Can you tell me now that Jesus was not about Love. And does this honestly sound like a harsh love? Everything below this is scriptures. I expect you will look them up to find out why they said what they say, but it is too clear in too many of these scriptures for you to refute the fact that Jesus was about LOVE.

            John 13:34
            A new commandment I give unto you, That ye LOVE one another; as I have LOVED you, that ye also LOVE one another.

            John 15:12
            This is my commandment, That ye LOVE one another, as I have LOVED you.

            John 15:17
            These things I command you, that ye LOVE one another.

            Romans 13:8
            Owe no man any thing, but to LOVE one another: for he that LOVETH another hath fulfilled the law.

            1 Thessalonians 4:9
            But as touching brotherly LOVE ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to LOVE one another.

            1 Peter 1:22
            Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned LOVE of the brethren, see that ye LOVE one another with a pure heart fervently:

            1 John 3:11
            For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should LOVE one another.

            1 John 3:23
            And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and LOVE one another, as he gave us commandment.

            1 John 4:7
            Beloved, let us LOVE one another: for LOVE is of God; and every one that LOVETH is born of God, and knoweth God.

            1 John 4:11
            Beloved, if God so LOVED us, we ought also to LOVE one another.

            1 John 4:12
            No man hath seen God at any time. If we LOVE one another, God dwelleth in us, and his LOVE is perfected in us.

            2 John 1:5
            And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we LOVE one another.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            again …. the issue is YOUR DISTORTED view of what that love is ……….. and nothing else ……..

          • Sharon_at_home

            You asked me what “love” I meant and I told you that it was AGAPE. So if it isn’t that meaning what do you think the right meaning is between the other 3 meanings of love?Look at the scriptures Amos. You tell me then what LOVE was used in the scriptures I posted.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            love INCLUDES chastisement and it INCLUDES HATING certain things AND certain people and groups of people ………….. you CANNOT have love with ANY MEANING without the opposition of HATE to highlight what that means ….. “love” is MEANINGLESS unless you accept BOTH ……….. GOD HATES …… God is ENTITLED to HATE …. God is RIGHTEOUS to HATE ….. GOD is HOLY to HATE ……….. God cannot be HOLY unless God HATES certain things and certain people ……….. and we cannot grow in holiness and in righteousness unless and until WE love what God loves … AND hate what God hates …………

          • Sharon_at_home

            God is entitled to hate but YOU ARE NOT
            No it does not mean HATE. You are totally wrong about that.

            Love NEVER includes Hate – hate is something opposite of love and is not a part of love in any way. None of the meanings of the Word Love mean anything that includes hate in them. There is no other way to understand love except by it’s origins, Greek. You tell me which kind of love in those meanings tell us to hate. ever.

            The way you said it sounds like when the Bible said that GOD IS LOVE, that you think that it also means God is Hate. and that is not even close to the truth.
            I feel bad that I could not lead you to the truth, Amos. But I was just supposed to try, and I think God always knew you would not listen, sadly. I pray that something I’ve said along the line in the posts have made you at least question what the difference in it is.

            And punishing someone and telling them that it is because you love them is a blatant lie. You are punishing the people for the sin, not because you love them.

            Love is about teaching not about chastisement. You don’t spank a child for having dirty hands, you tell them why they have keep them clean.

            You have an extremely warped view of too many things Amos.

            You must have had a rough childhood if you were constantly chastised by your parents like you think God wants us to be like.

            I had 3 sons, Amos, we never yelled at them. We never made them feel unworthy of our love either. When they did something wrong, we talked to them about it. We explained why we prefer the other way, and they did it. Kids are a lot smarter today than they were in the previous decades. I spanked one of my sons, once. And I had to apologize for it because it was done in anger. I can’t recall ever chastising them. They are now working at high paid jobs – one has been to a college and a University and a course on Sports Agents and is becoming an agent for the Toronto Blue Jays.

            I don’t think discussing the errors they made instead of punishing them was a mistake because my 3 sons are incredible men according to the friends they have. I know God approved of how I brought them up. I have no doubt that he did not feel I needed to use “the rod” because they turned out to be great people, without it.

            Someone has banned everyone that is not Christian. That’s discrimination of the highest kind. Christian site or not, they still cannot discriminate. I expect them to see the posts I’ve mentioned that in so they are aware that they could be sued.

            You and your fellow Catholics can be here and be as rude about gays and other “sinners” all you want. Have your laughs and giggles while you can. God will not like how you treat other people. I know that without a doubt.

            So Take your twisted view of the Gospel and Jesus and keep them to yourselves so that other people don’t think you represent God, because you are not.

            It says in the bible GOD IS LOVE. That is AGAPE love, an unconditional love that he gives to every one of his creations. If you don’t have that love, it says you are not of God. There IS more than one meaning of Love and you don’t understand them even when I put the meanings with them.

            I’ve been told to give up on you. I am no longer supposed to lead you to the true Salvation. God willing someone else will talk to you and help you understand the Gospel with a better view. As it is now, I would not want to live in a world filled with the hate you have for others. I am living in God’s world, and staying out of the problems of the world just like he told us to be – different, peculiar, set apart. The vision you give people because of the way you look at Jesus, it would make heaven a kind of hell because of the way he would treat us if he was the harsh God that you think he is. He wants us to love each other so we can have a wonderful life there. Heaven is all about love too. And because you think he wants people who hate to be in Heaven. You don’t know God at all. Not when you attribute him to evil practices like continual punishment in the way of chastisement.

            Thanks but I’ll keep my view of a loving God and leave you to your hate. It is not love, Amos, to say awful things about anyone. God did not say for us to hate in any way.
            Good bye Amos. I hope you don’t regret ignoring the warning God sent to you, when you stand in judgement. Sin is not allowed when you are trying to have salvation. It won’t be ignored by God, when it’s not repented of in your heart. If you think it is alright to treat people like trash and that it’s not a sin, you’ve got a big surprise coming at the day of Judgement. See ya’ Don’t celebrate yet – you will probably say something in your posts that will bring me back, so I might be back. I will always stand for my God and He is nothing like the God you seem to worship. As a matter of fact, you sound like God thinks the way the Muslims are killing would be appropriate because we’re allowed to hate groups of people.

            And what about the Fruits of the Spirits? Even they do not include hate but they are the ways we should behave towards others when we have the Holy Spirit.

            Have you ever done any of them? Or do you not “understand” the fruits of the spirit and what they are about. I guess I won’t know because I’ m going to ignore your replies.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            NOPE ……… AGAIN ….. YOU are trying to ADD LAW to salvation ……… that is NOT grace …. and it is CERTAINLY not FREE grace …….. and your theology is a lie ………. you want people to “love” to YOUR satisfaction ….. NOT GODS …………

          • Sharon_at_home

            Amos, the issue is YOUR DISTORTED view of what that love is, Not mine!

            I know all about Love, Amos. I have always loved people. I have always helped and cared about others. I don’t think you can honestly say that you can do that with people that are not in your personal circle. You just want to look at them for their sins. That’s not love.

            You think love includes hate and it does not. hate is the OPPOSITE of love.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            If you love blacks ….. you MUST hate slavery ….. if you love Jews ….. you MUST hate the holocaust ……if you love God then you MUST hate that which opposes God ….. and if God loves you …… HE MUST HATE that which keeps YOU from Him ………..

            Proverbs 8:13 To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech.

            Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
            6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
            6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
            6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

            Psalm 97
            10 Let those who love the LORD hate evil, for he guards the lives of his faithful ones and delivers them from the hand of the wicked.

            Psalm 119
            163 I hate and detest falsehood but I love your law.

            Romans 12
            9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.

            Leviticus 19
            17 “ ‘Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt. 18 “ ‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

            Ecclesiastes 3
            1 There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under the heavens:
            2 a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot,
            3 a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build,
            4 a time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance,
            5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them, a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
            6 a time to search and a time to give up, a time to keep and a time to
            throw away,
            7 a time to tear and a time to mend, a time to be silent and a time to speak,
            8 a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.

            YOUR view is DISTORTED …………

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Who says the way you interpret the bible is the right way?”

            Gods way is the right way ….. not our way ……….. and interpretation is adding to scripture …………

            ” You won’t approach every scripture I give you and I think that it is because you can’t dispute them.”

            there is not one thing in scripture i dispute …. who am i to say God is wrong ………..

          • Sharon_at_home

            You can’t dispute the meanings that the scriptures give. Even you cannot say that Jesus was not about love because GOD IS LOVE. But you still insist that Jesus did not act with love. Of course He did! How could a person who IS LOVE, not act WITH LOVE?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            NO …. Jesus ALWAYS acted out of love ……. it is YOUR perception of what that love is ….. THAT is the crux of your distorted view …..

            12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
            12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
            12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
            12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
            12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
            12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
            12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

            3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

            When we sin, we can expect that our loving Heavenly Father will not let us get away with it. Because He loves us, He desires us to live holy lives (1 Peter 1:15-16; Romans 8:29). If someone professes to know Christ but is living a lifestyle of unrepentant sin and claims to “feel fine about it,” with no qualms, then that person is not a legitimate child of God (Revelation 3:19; Hebrews 12:5-11; Job 5:17; Psalm 94:12; I John 3:4-12). God “punishes everyone he accepts as a son” (Hebrews 12:6).

          • Sharon_at_home

            I asked some questions I’d like an answer to, so please read it all. If you don’t answer my questions I will have to stop answering yours. I have always answered every thing in your posts, so please do the same. Do not stop at the first thing you don’t like, make a note of it so you can include it in your answer, but have the courtesy to read my whole comments please.
            If some one SINs Without Repentance from their heart, they will not receive salvation Amos. No matter who they are.
            The water baptism does very little in terms of salvation. It is to help you when you are tempted, but it cannot stop you from doing the sins.
            The renewal of mind is about the choice of becoming a Child of God by desiring to obey him. It’s about changing from a sinner to a member of God’s church that will not want to go against God’s Word, like they used to. It’s about becoming a nice person to reflect God. That one seems to have gone beyond you. Are you ever nice to people Amos? Do you always argue with everyone? I have known a few people like that before.

            A father does not rebuke his children every time he talks to them Amos. He teaches them without rebuking. No one can be rebuked on something you didn’t know until Jesus told them. Jesus was telling them about how he wanted them to behave that would not be a sinful way.
            Every scripture you pull up is about the harsh Jesus you believe in, but every scripture I pull up is about the Loving Jesus. Can you not see the reason why?
            You keep saying that you can’t attribute one thing to God, without attributing all of his different attributes . But then you say consistently prove that you believe he was harsh. But you have never allowed the attribute of Love to be one of Jesus’ attributes but only seem to focus on the one way Jesus acted a few times. You like the angry rebuking Jesus for some reason, and I love the loving Jesus/God who loves us unconditionally.

            You think that not doing a sin is a condition but it’s not. God still loves the people who sin. Or he would not love anyone. We are all sinners. Any rebuking will be done on Judgement day and at that time he will be an angry God at all the people who would not trust Him.

            If we decide to rebuke people for their sins, we cannot be demeaning because YOU CANNOT KNOW THEIR HEART. All you are supposed to do is “rebuke” as in tell them of their sin. and Tell them about salvation based on Repentance. That’s all. you aren’t supposed to make them feel like dirt because of their sin. You are supposed to treat everyone the way you want to be treated, and I don’t think you want to be treated like dirt.

            Oh and from what I have gathered you never get to the point of teaching the Gospel, you just yell and scream about repentance and expect everyone to know what you are talking about when some people know nothing about the bible at all.

            When you supposed Christians yell and demean and show hate FOR the PERSON, you are showing Christians as hateful people. Christ wants us to behave well so we can show the world how Christians are good people so they will want to be Christians too.
            Do you know how many people say that they would never want to be a Christian because of how you people ‘rebuke’ with hate all the time.

            Sorry Jesus wanted us to discern whether they were able to hear the Word of God; He did not say we could judge the person, only the sin. He did not say that all sinners of the biggest sins (like homosexuality) are lost because any one of them could turn to Jesus. From what this site shows, there have been many gays that have found Jesus, and turned from their sins. So it just proves that you cannot know who will and who will not come to repentance, so you have to encourage, not show hatred, to teach them about repentance and Salvation. They won’t listen to a hate filled voice. They would not have listened to Jesus if he used a hateful sounding voice.
            Did you like to listen to your Mother or Father rebuking you? I’ve never heard of anyone who likes being rebuked; especially when the person rebuking you is hateful.

            A lot of their punishments from God will be after Judgement Day you know.
            How would God rebuke us Amos. Would he come into our dreams like with Mary and Joseph? How would God show us the error of our ways? And how do you know you are one of the Elect?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “The renewal of mind is about the choice of becoming a Child of God”

            we are PREDESTINED to be chosen ….. it is NOT OUR choice ….. it is ALL Gods choice …….. read Ephesians ….. you saying it is YOUR choice is saying YOU get to decide to be saved ….. that YOU are in control here ….. NOT GOD ….. and you DO NOT need Christ to save you …. GOD is in control of ALL of salvation ….. NOT US ………

            “Do you always argue with everyone?”

            i correct those that are WRONG …. and you are exceedingly wrong and in error ……….. and in case you have not noticed ….. i recognize MANY brothers and sisters here …. Grace, Guest, Adam, Nidalap, Lady Checkmate, Richard, Robert, Doug Bristow, CitizenEmeritus, Luminous, Charles Hadden, and to a lesser degree Trilemma and you ……….. and MANY others …. most of them i have NEVER had to correct ……

            “Every scripture you pull up is about the harsh Jesus you believe in, but every scripture I pull up is about the Loving Jesus. Can you not see the reason why? ”

            because you have no balance to your presentation ……. you present a false Christ and you say that is what you do ….. you say you only present a one sided, one dimensional false Christ ………………..

            “How would God show us the error of our ways?”

            God has numerous ways in which He accomplishes His goals ……..

            “And how do you know you are one of the Elect?”

            how do you NOT know …… how can that fact escape you …. we are drowning in a sea of iniquity and someone pulls us out and into a life boat and saves us …… HOW DO YOU NOT KNOW that you are saved ……. and if you do not know you are saved …… then you most likely are not ………

          • Sharon_at_home

            Agape: Highest; love; Unconditional; Self – sacrificial
            The meaning of Love in the second commandment in the NT.
            A sample of other times in the scripture that Agape was used.
            * what the main subject is in relation to the scripture.
            * God – Matt. 22: 36 – 38
            36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
            37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt (Agape)love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
            38 This is the first and great commandment.
            * One another: 1 John 3:16
            16 Hereby perceive we the (Storge) love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
            and John 13:35

            35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have LOVE one to another. This love can be either Storge, or Phileo

            * Spouse: Ephesians 5:25
            25 Husbands, (Storge)LOVE your wives, even as Christ also(Storge) loved the church, and gave himself for it;

            and Titus: 2:4
            4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to (storge)love their husbands, to (storge)love their children

            Amos calm down. I just want to discuss our different views, It has nothing to do with changing your mind or changing my mind. It is strictly one religions beliefs compared to another. It is also not about who’s right and who is wrong.

            What “New Law” did I apply that was not in the scripture?
            Are you talking about the second commandment that Jesus gave us?
            Matthew 22:37-40 Love: AGAPE
            “37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt (AGAPE) love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
            38 This is the first and great commandment.
            39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt (Storge)love thy neighbour as thyself.
            40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

            There you go, Is it to your liking the way I did it.

          • Amos Moses

            “What “New Law” did I apply that was not in the scripture?”

            making “love” a requirement for salvation …… that if i do not “love (agape) enough to your satisfaction ….. and that is what your accusations are ……….. then i am sinning and i am not saved ….. do i need to go back and directly quote you where you said that …… that is not grace ….. that is law ….. and i have said ….. when we are saved by grace ….. we are no longer under the law ….. and we do not make NEW LAWS (such as requiring circumcision as the scriptures describe) for anyone to be saved ….. and once we are saved we DO NOT go back under the law … GOD FORBID …….

            i am not here to preach the gospel to your satisfaction ….. and neither is anyone else ….. NOT Grace Kim Kwon ….. or anyone else ….. and if you do not like the way we do it …. fine …. i am not here to please you ….. i am here to preach Christ and Him Crucified for the forgiveness of sins ….. and people need to know first what those sins are …..

          • Sharon_at_home

            Interesting that you think that is what I mean. I showed the scriptures that show exactly what Jesus said to ‘us’ I never made any claims that I could not back up and I did back up the claims I made.

            There is a question in the bottom area of this, and I want you to answer it please.

            Another thing, It is NOT me that “says” that ‘if you are good person and doing what Jesus taught us about behaving and what he wants us to do. It is the BIBLE. you are not looking at the scriptures I give you at all, are you Amos?
            You are just defending the first ‘mistake’ because you can’t deny what the other scriptures say.
            You are ignoring what Jesus did say to the Multitudes He showed the behavior he wanted us to follow; he used the language of the time to tell them of the things that are good of sins and repentance.
            I don’t ask you to preach the gospel at all. If you would read my first paragraph you would see that I have pointed out that I don’t want to do more than find out what your beliefs are and what mine are that correspond with those beliefs.
            I don’t have to agree or disagree, but it’s not about me, and in this case, it is about you because God “who it is all about”. I will tell you again. I have been led here by the Holy Spirit to help you learn the gospel that you are supposed to behave like. I’ve given you scriptures; I’ve told you all about your meanings of Love. We differ on one of them. But for 3 of them, am I supposed to assume that you agree with them because you did not point them out like you did my ‘mistake’.
            Amos are you actually listening to anything to what I am telling you and search the scriptures to know if they are true. Have you read the Word before and after the scripture to understand what situation and scriptures actually show us about the time Jesus spent there.
            Amos I think you are one of those Christians that have read the bible only so far before you thought it would be repeating what the 4 books of the gospel say and decided not to read them, I mean that seriously. The last books of the NT are not just after-thoughts you know. They are about Jesus and what he wanted too and what he said so we could use it in our own lives now. You can cherry pick scriptures that are talking about different situations that I am, but I actually talk in my posts to tell you what I am trying to show you in the scriptures.
            I am not telling you that you have to be a good person to achieve Salvation. Jesus is. Jesus told us to walk like Him and be the best person you can be. Walk like him :good works; Nice to others.,Caring about everyone Amos. not just our brethren. Everyone. Treat everyone kindly and without malice. He did not say “don’t include” anyone, He said it very bluntly: .Everyone.
            If you have not read the scriptures I gave to you to prove that you have to change to be more like Christ. Go back and read them.
            I am not the one that decided this. JESUS IS. Read the scriptures I have given you, for once, and you will see for yourself that Jesus talked consistently about Love, and that by loving each other we do not want to do any harm. When you love someone you do not want to harm them, and that means you are about love with that person.
            This scriptures is using the Greek Phileo: By telling us to love each other God is also saying the Greek word Storge; he wants us to all be close enough to the people we associate with that we care about them enough to not sin against them. It’s not love like between a man and his wife, it’s more like the love for a friend, people we are close to, and brotherly love.

            My Pastor told me that you don’t have to ‘like’ the person, but you have to love them so you care about their welfare as much as you do your own. “Treat people the way you want to be treated” did come from the Word of God just said in a different way for centuries so children could understand it, and apply it in their lives with other people. Do you think that is wrong, twisting a scripture to say what it says so a child can understand it. Do you think that is wrong, Amos?

          • Amos Moses

            “Do you think that is wrong, twisting a scripture to say what it says so a child can understand it. Do you think that is wrong, Amos?”

            it is ……….. a child can understand it just fine without altering it …….. this is not brain surgery …..

            “I have been led here by the Holy Spirit to help you learn the gospel that you are supposed to behave like. ”

            and there it is ….. to your satisfaction ….. i am not here to please you … what i do is to please Christ ….. my only concern is to do what He desires …. not what i desire …. nor you ….

            “Treat people the way you want to be treated” …. i do ……….

          • Amos Moses

            from what exactly did God save you …………….

          • Sharon_at_home

            Eternity in Hell, just like you were.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            okay ….. but WHO had the power and AUTHORITY to send you there …………… and WHY …..

          • Sharon_at_home

            Why Amos. Do you think I’m going to answer something like it wasn’t God.
            Stop with the juvenile questions. You cannot deny I know the bible no matter how you view it as distorted from everything the Gospel was about.

            1) Did Jesus yell everything when he told the Multitudes the beautitudes? Did he make them all sound like they were all sinner and how evil they were? That’s what a Jesus from your view would do it, isn’t it? Give them a harsh lesson? Is that what you mean by your view of Jesus?

            2) So why does the scriptures say consistently that JESUS wanted us to love each other (I gave you 12 examples of those scriptures) Why would it say that if he did not want us to love eachother?


          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Why Amos. Do you think I’m going to answer something like it wasn’t God. ”

            So it is God …. WHOM YOU WERE SAVED FROM ……….. God saved you FROM HIMSELF ……… He did not save you from His “love” ……. He saved YOU FROM HIS WRATH ………

            and when God had His own Son crucified on the cross …… that was GODS WRATH being poured out ….. ON HIS OWN SON ……. NOW ………..

            WAS THAT LOVE …………..

          • Sharon_at_home

            He also saved me from anything evil and hateful by Loving me unconditionally. He loves all of us, so when I am faced with anything evil or hateful, I turn to God and feel His Love and it makes everything else fade into a place that it doesn’t matter what people do, because God loves me, protects me, provides for me, blesses me every day, shows me Mercy every day, shows me Grace every day.

          • Sharon_at_home

            We are to be a light that shines for Jesus by the way we behave.

            1 Timothy 4: 11 – 16
            11 These things command and teach.
            12 Let no man despise thy youth; but BE THOU AN EXAMPLE OF THE BELIEVERS, in word, in CONVERSATION, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
            13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
            14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
            15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
            16 TAKE HEED UNTO THYSELF, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for IN DOING THIS THOU SHALT BOTH SAVE THYSELF AND THEM THAT HEAR THEE

          • Sharon_at_home

            The Bible gives us Doctrine, Correction and Instruction on how to be righteous.

            2 Timothy 3:16
            16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

            Righteousness: the quality of being morally right or justifiable.

            That means we are all supposed to be a morally right person, which we cannot do without being a good person to everyone.

          • Sharon_at_home

            We learn about the life of Christ to model our lives on His example:

            1 Peter 2:21
            21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that YE SHOULD FOLLOW HIS STEPS

            I expect that you understand what this means but I’ll tell you anyway.

            Christ left us the example of his life written in the Word of God.

            We are supposed to study what he was like and become as close to Jesus in behaviour as we can.

          • Amos Moses

            in case you missed Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. …..

            you trying to make “love” a law …… and that is doing ill to your neighbor ……… it is placing a legal burden on them to live up to YOUR standard of what YOU think love is ……. not what scripture says ………….

            also ….. “13 Let us walk HONESTLY, as in the day” ….. in WHAT WAY ….. is MMM walking HONESTLY, as in the day … especially when she is BLATANTLY LYING ………… and expects us to look the other way at her LIE ……… NO …… NOT SCRIPTURE ………….

        • Sharon_at_home

          No, Colin is not like what you are trying to make him out to be. He’s not a stupid person. If you had been here to read his posts for a while, you would be aware of that.
          Colin is not talking about Peacocks, if I know him at all, he’s talking about people, not animals.
          It’s just that what he believes is hard for us to understand clearly when we know God’s Word. That’s not something that is stupid, as in your dictionary comment, it is just a non-believer’s way of seeing something differently than we look at it. It is his right to have a personal opinion just as we can have ours.
          Can you help me understand how the way you spoke to Colin in this particular post, is Christ-like? I never read any scriptures that Jesus spoke with derision or sarcasm to anyone while he was here. Is there a scripture I’ve missed in my reading of God’s Word?
          If there is, I’d appreciate it if you would tell me where it is so we might discuss it if we do not agree with the meaning so we have a way of understanding it, by discussing it.
          The way we are all taught is not the only understanding of it, so we should be looking to see what others think of the scriptures so we can make an informed, mature decision about what God intended in the scriptures. It is not a good idea to leave your Salvation in someone else’s hands, (or minds) because it is your responsibility to learn about Salvation yourself and practice what it said to receive Salvation. No one else can do that for you. As a matter of fact, when you stand in front of God on Judgement Day, you cannot use the excuse that your Church did not tell you about it. You have the bible and it’s your own responsibility to look at the scriptures and work on your salvation yourself. Sometimes we do sins that we don’t realize are sins until we do focus on what we might be doing wrong. No one at a church that just knows you at church, will know about the sin. How will anyone else be able to point it out to help you see it so you can repent? No one else is likely to point out someone else’s sin either. Does that help you understand what I am trying to say?
          I actually just started commenting because of how you treated Colin. Then I decided to point out to you that it was not Christ-like – because that is what we are supposed to be – which means it’s a sin to speak to others the way you did to Colin.
          Be careful who you try to demean, sir(?) as there are some of us who will defend others if the comment says anything but what we know is true about one of us. It would be better for you to encourage Colin to discuss it with you, not bring out a defensive side to someone by how you speak to them. It has a way of shortening people’s patience and it can really turn a good day into a bad one from the frustration. We don’t like bad days, and we should try to avoid making someone else’s day bad.
          God Bless!

  • CitizenEmeritus

    Looks like Dyck has a bit to learn about the Bible in that God ‘created them as male and female’. There’s no confusion about that….other than in the mind of Dyck apparently. Too bad someone put in leadership knows so little about what she should be an expert about!

  • EricBenndorf

    She’s a deviant.

  • EricBenndorf

    When I saw the picture I thought it was Ed Norton.

  • Doug Olson

    Good evening,
    Forty-six (46) years ago I was studying to become a minister for the United Methodist Church at Boston University, School of Theology. I left school after two (2) years because of the very liberal theology the school and church was forcing me to accept to become a United Methodist minister. I was a broken man. Now I thank the LORD God that he removed me from this school and church because of issues like this. Sick and evil!!!

    • Sharon_at_home

      Did you go to another religion or Church I hope?

  • Total apostasy. Obviously Satan is a voting board member of the UMC.

    • Amos Moses

      hey brother ………..

      • Hey yourself…

        Hope all is well with you.

        • Amos Moses

          yup ……..

          • God bless you my friend.

          • Amos Moses

            back at cha … and bless you too …….

  • Theo

    Looks like the swamp got drained.


    • What does that have to do with this?

      • Theo

        I’m referring to the removal of the anti-Christian comments. Apparently some of the more annoying people have been banned. None too soon.

        • Chris

          Annoying because they keep showing you that you’re wrong?

  • Amos Moses

    United Methodist Church Throws ‘Going Out Of Orthodoxy’ Sale
    June 9, 2017

  • Amos Moses

    why it is a “they” ……. demonic possession ……….

    Mark 5:9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

    Mark 5:15 And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.

    Luke 8:30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.

  • Robert

    I recently went to a wedding officiated by a methodist women preacher. First time I even saw a women preacher out side of T.V. It seemed really odd. I was glad to get out of there.

    • Amos Moses

      scary ………

  • Amos Moses

    Excited Parents Throw Gender Reveal Party For Their Teenager
    June 13, 2017

    TAMPA, FL—Stating they could hardly wait to see what gender their little bundle of joy was going to be, Mr. and Mrs. Murphy opened their home to friends and family over the weekend to host a gender reveal party for their 15-year-old child.

    The party-goers reportedly partook in games like guessing the gender using pink, blue, purple, green, red, and brown M&Ms to cast their vote, taking a quiz to see who knew the most of the teenager’s triggers, and winning pins from other guests who slipped up and used the wrong pronoun for the child.

    “I bet it’s a demi-male dragonkin,” Cindy Johnson from Mrs. Murphy’s yoga class whispered. “I just have a feeling!”

    “No, no—see how the kid is wearing a hoodie and brooding? I’ll bet that’s a sign it’s a bisexual female,” an elderly woman replied. “It may be an old wives’ tale, but it holds true every time. Just you wait and see.”

    When the exciting reveal moment finally arrived, the Murphys gathered all the guests together and broke open a large paper mache piñata, revealing the gender of their precious little high schooler to be a gender-fluid possum possibly having kinship with an anime character from popular anime “Attack on Titan.”

  • Dianne

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the UNRIGHTEOUS SHALL NOT inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
    1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit maybe saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
    1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that JUDGEMENT MUST BEGIN at the house of God: and if it begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

  • Chet

    What a nut…

  • C Joseph

    These tares among the wheat that abide not in God’s Word are sent in by the devil to deceive the young.

    • Dianne

      And and the gullible which are in all age groups.