U.S. Department of Justice Files Legal Brief Declaring Title VII Does Not Include Homosexuality

Photo Credit: Department of Justice

WASHINGTON — The U.S. Department of Justice has filed an amicus brief declaring that Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 does not pertain to homosexuality.

“The sole question here is whether, as a matter of law, Title VII reaches sexual orientation discrimination,” it wrote. “It does not, as has been settled for decades. Any efforts to amend Title VII’s scope should be directed to Congress rather than the courts.”

The Department filed the “friend of the court” brief in the case of Zarda vs. Altitude Express, which centers on skydiving instructor Donald Zarda, who was fired by his employer following a complaint from the boyfriend of a female diver.

“Zarda often informed female clients of his sexual orientation—especially when they were accompanied by a husband or boyfriend—to mitigate any awkwardness that might arise from the fact that he was strapped so tightly to the woman,” legal documents outline.

Altitude Express told Zarda that he was fired because he “failed to provide an enjoyable experience for the customer” as David Kengle, the boyfriend of Rosanna Orellana, complained to the company about Zarda’s remarks.

Zarda sued his employer in 2010 for discrimination, but died in a skydiving accident before the matter went to trial. The executors of his estate decided to keep the case active, but a district court ruled that while the suit may proceed, Title VII of the Civil Rights Act does not apply to homosexuality.

The Second Circuit Court of Appeals agreed, and the argument is now being considered for an en banc—or full court—appeal.

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Title VII prohibits discrimination of the basis of race, color, religion, sex and national origin, and some have construed the inclusion of “sex” in the law to pertain to “sexual orientation.” However, others state that the original intent of including sex in the statute was to prohibit employers from treating female workers differently than male employees.

“The essential element of sex discrimination under Title VII is that employees of one sex must be treated worse that similarly situated employees of the other sex, and sexual orientation discrimination simply does not have that effect,” the Department of Justice contended in its amicus brief this week.

“Moreover, whatever this court would say about the question were it writing on a blank slate, Congress has made clear through its actions and inactions in this area that Title VII’s prohibition of sex discrimination does not encompass sexual orientation discrimination,” it said.

Homosexual advocacy groups have expressed disappointment with the government’s filing.

“In one fell swoop, Trump’s DOJ has provided a roadmap for dismantling years of federal protections and declared that lesbian, gay, and bisexual people may no longer be protected by landmark civil rights laws such as the Fair Housing Act, Title IX, or Title VII,” said Sarah Warbelow, legal director for the Human Rights Council, in a statement on Wednesday.

“[The] filing is a shameful retrenchment of an outmoded interpretation that forfeits faithful interpretation of current law to achieve a politically-driven and legally specious result,” she asserted.

The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission had sided with Zarda, but the Department of Justice says that the Commission was “not speaking for the United States.”


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  • mr goody two shoes

    Males having sex with Males . just what a very sick perverted lawyers and judges or mother and
    Dad would want for their son. Those who want such a thing have depraved perverted minds.

    • zampogna

      If they are homosexual males, yes, their sexual attraction will be to males. You know that’s what a homosexual is, right?

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        “Those who want to defend such a thing have depraved perverted minds.”

        guess he nailed it …………

        • zampogna

          And managed to blithely wave away fifty plus years of science. Pretty sad.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            false science is not science ….. “science” at odds with the truth is not science ….. it is garbage ….. and as always … garbage in, garbage out ………..

          • zampogna

            You have no basis to be calling it “false” other than the fact you don’t like it, Amos. It’s sound science and meets all the necessary criteria.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            if it does not comport to the truth ….. then it is FALSE SCIENCE …………… and by definition NOT sound ….. show me the scientific study that says science is the truth or can even be the truth ………… YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY SUCH THING …..

            The statement, “Scientific knowledge is the only legitimate form of knowledge,” is not scientific knowledge—that’s to say, we cannot determine the truth-value of this statement using the scientific method. With what sense can we observe the truth of this statement? Or what scientific tests can we perform to prove this statement? The truth-value of scientism is not empirically verifiable nor quantifiably measurable, and consequently is not subject to scientific inquiry—it’s an assumption.

            But this is a fatal problem for the believer in scientism—namely, scientism is not real knowledge. If science can’t verify the truth of scientism, then how can scientism itself be a legitimate form of knowledge?

            The answer is, It can’t.

            Why should anyone believe scientism is true if it’s not real knowledge? If scientism is not real knowledge, as implied in scientism itself, then it’s self-refuting, and thus should not be accepted as a reasonable worldview.

            ~ Karlo Broussard

          • zampogna

            Your problem is that it DOES verify the truth, and you simply dislike that fact so you dismiss it. Which scientific study would you like? There are millions.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            no it does not ….. and it is not my problem as i do not accept false science ……….. has nothing to do with “like” or “dislike” …… has to do with what “science” says and whether or not it comports to the truth ……… and sadly most of it today DOES NOT ………… science is not the standard of truth ….. science IS DETERMINED BY THE TRUTH ….. Truth measures science ….. NOT the other way around ……….

            show the scientific study that proves everything labeled science ….. is science ……… just because it is labeled science does not make it science ….. and just because a “scientist” says something ….. DOES NOT MAKE IT SCIENCE ………….. you cannot even show that science is a determiner of truth …. nor can you show that science is even NEEDED to determine truth ………. it AINT …………

          • zampogna

            It doesn’t surprise me at all that you are a science denier. Not even the slightest bit.

            You’re quite right when you say that just because a scientist says something does not make it science. But I never claimed that. I claimed the opposite – science is all about peer review and fact checking and hypothesis and testing. Which is does. Which ends up proving it to be correct.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i am not a “science denier” ……….. SCIENCE ….. BELONGS ….. TO ….. GOD …. if it does not comport to the truth ….. IT IS GARBAGE …………….

            ” science is all about peer review” <—— more garbage in, garbage out

            from the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine

            WHAT IS PEER REVIEW?
            My point is that peer review is impossible to define in operational terms (an operational definition is one whereby if 50 of us looked at the same process we could all agree most of the time whether or not it was peer review). Peer review is thus like poetry, love, or justice. But it is something to do with a grant application or a paper being scrutinized by a third party—who is neither the author nor the person making a judgement on whether a grant should be given or a paper published. But who is a peer? Somebody doing exactly the same kind of research (in which case he or she is probably a direct competitor)? Somebody in the same discipline? Somebody who is an expert on methodology? And what is review? Somebody saying `The paper looks all right to me', which is sadly what peer review sometimes seems to be. Or somebody pouring all over the paper, asking for raw data, repeating analyses, checking all the references, and making detailed suggestions for improvement? Such a review is vanishingly rare.

          • zampogna

            Science exists outside of God. It doesn’t belong to anyone.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … just more of your lies …. you would not have science WITHOUT God ………..

          • zampogna

            Unless God doesn’t exist, which is a perfectly valid idea that you never even have the guts to entertain. Nor does your upvoter.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            so prove it …. and you cant use science … that belongs to GOD …………

          • zampogna

            Science exists outside of faith and therefore outside of God. The burden of proof is on you to prove a God exists, not on anyone else to prove God does not exist.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope ….. TRUTH is INDEPENDENT of science ………… SCIENCE PROVES GOD ….. you reject truth and therefore you reject knowledge of God and anything that confirms God ……. you are the one CLAIMING a positive assertion of non-existence ….. the A PRIORI here …. is that God EXISTS ….. and if it is a lie …… THE BURDEN IS ON YOU to PROVE IT A LIE ……. Pamona …….

          • zampogna

            Science doesn’t prove God. Nothing proves God. Exhibit A: Atheists.
            I don’t reject truth. The problem is you think truth means faith. It doesn’t.
            Proving the existence of God is on you. Like it’s been on so many before you.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ALL OF CREATION points to and proves the existence of God ….. except to those who reject Him …. and you do ……… truth does not have to be proven …. it is either accepted or rejected ….. YOU reject the truth …. you do not KNOW the truth …. and you have NO MEANS to establish the truth with science that BELONGS TO GOD …..

          • zampogna

            Truth is only labelled truth when it is proven to be truth. That’s why we have science. Faith won’t do that for you. Sorry.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            NOPE …. truth stands alone and unrebutted ….. you reject truth …. you do not know the truth ….. you cannot tell even one person here what the truth is because ….. YOU DO NOT KNOW THE TRUTH and you reject the God who is truth ……….. and science BELONGS TO GOD ….. YOU have NOTHING ………..

          • zampogna

            I know the truth when I see it. It has nothing to do with religion. Period.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            no you do not … you reject the truth of Gods existence ……… and the evidence of His existence is ALL OF EXISTENCE …… even YOUR EXISTENCE …………

          • zampogna

            You don’t get to tell me what I believe. You can only speak for yourself, no one else. And people will start to take you a lot more seriously when you get that straight.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            God has told us what EVERYMAN who rejects God believes …… GOD has told you ….. you reject Him and do not want to listen to Him …..which He allows ….. but it shows that you do not know the truth and that you reject the truth ….. and you have no truth to share …. you cannot share what you do not possess …………..

          • zampogna

            You make an awful lot of claims on behalf of a God you have no proof is even there. But no, you can’t speak for me. You speak for you. And that’s it.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Nope …. SCRIPTURE has said what God has said ……. do you want chapter and verse ….. oh, never mind ….. you reject truth and scripture in any event …..

          • zampogna

            Scripture is not proof. Doesn’t matter how strong your faith is. Faith is not truth.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            right there …. rejection of truth …. because you do not know truth ……….

          • zampogna

            Tell me where I rejected truth. I defy you.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you reject God and the scriptures ….. that is rejection of truth ……..

          • zampogna

            No, it’s the rejection of a bunch of words that have never been proved to be true.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            they are self evidently true ….. until an unregenerate person denies them as true ….. which you do ……….

          • zampogna

            “Unregenerate” – your opinion only, and you do not know me, so you can give this semantics game up anytime.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            your claim you do not know if God exists ….. that makes you unregenerate ………

          • zampogna

            No one knows. It is unknowable.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            it is knowable to the regenerate …… but it is also knowable and known to the unregenerate ….. because the evidence is overwhelming unless it is denied due to unrighteousness …… you are unregenerate Pamona ……….

          • zampogna

            It is completely unknowable. You employ faith to believe in it and that’s fine but faith does not equal truth and faith does not equal proof. And unfortunately for you, truth and proof are the two things you require to be taken seriously.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            could you be wrong about everything you have written here and everywhere ……

          • zampogna

            Not about any of this. You need to learn what words like evidence, proof, truth, and faith mean.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            so you are never wrong about anything EVER ………. and how do you know you are right about “this” ………

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            God created man which is required for all cognitive reasoning, including all scientific inquiry, making my position ipso facto prior in the ordo cognoscendi ….. that means it is better than yours ….. Christ is better ……….

          • zampogna

            I challenge you to find me any scientific principle that mentions God. You’re changing the rules to suit your faith, that’s all that’s going on here.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i challenge you to show me how you HAVE ANY PRINCIPLE without God ………..

          • zampogna

            Simple, God isn’t required for there to BE a principle. And not a single science book will mention one. You keep trying to crowbar God into something where God isn’t relevant.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            God is required for everything as everything was created by Him and you have created nothing to alter that reality ….. you have stolen from God and christianity and claimed it as yours …….. and that makes you a liar …………..

          • zampogna

            You keep insisting I have stolen from God but never say how. It doesn’t matter though because no matter how hard you want to dig your heels in, God is not relevant to science or truth. Both things exist without God, and so your lie is effectively exposed.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you have stolen everything from God ………. you claim science and logic and reason is of men ….. yet you cannot explain how they came about and their origin ……. so theft …. and unregenerate ………..

          • zampogna

            You cannot explain how they come from God.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            God created everything ……. and that INCLUDES science reason and logic ……. and they all belong to Him …………. and even though you are unregenerate ….. He allows you to use them …… He even lets you use His air to breathe and His water to drink and to eat His food and have a job to provide for yourself and your family ….. EVEN as you are unregenerate …. Padgoda …………

          • zampogna

            Any time you say “God” you are talking about a matter of faith, and you get shut down instantly. Science is unrelated to faith. Science, reason and logic exist outside of God and always have.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope …. God is a matter of fact ….. that you deny ………..

          • zampogna

            Then you have officially settled thousands of years of debate. Congratulations! Now all you have to do is state your proof. Please note that saying “it’s self-evident” isn’t proof.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            God has settled what He has said ….. men are still in rebellion ………… like you ………..

          • zampogna

            I am in rebellion against ignorance and stupidity as always. I have no time for superstitions.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ” science is all about peer review” <—— more garbage in, garbage out

            from the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine ……….. AGAIN ……..

            That is why Robbie Fox, the great 20th century editor of the Lancet, who was no admirer of peer review, wondered whether anybody would notice if he were to swap the piles marked `publish' and `reject'. He also joked that the Lancet had a system of throwing a pile of papers down the stairs and publishing those that reached the bottom. When I was editor of the BMJ I was challenged by two of the cleverest researchers in Britain to publish an issue of the journal comprised only of papers that had failed peer review and see if anybody noticed. I wrote back `How do you know I haven't already done it?'

            GARBAGE IN, GARBAGE OUT …………….. peer review DOES NOT MEAN DIDDLY ………….

          • zampogna

            When you say “Garbage”, are you referring to the articles you are cutting and pasting here?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            yawn ……….

          • zampogna

            Well, don’t post things that aren’t worthy of my time.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ” science is all about peer review” <—— more garbage in, garbage out

            from the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine ……….. AGAIN ……..

            What is clear is that the forms of peer review are protean. Probably the systems of every journal and every grant giving body are different in at least some detail; and some systems are very different. There may even be some journals using the following classic system. The editor looks at the title of the paper and sends it to two friends whom the editor thinks know something about the subject. If both advise publication the editor sends it to the printers. If both advise against publication the editor rejects the paper. If the reviewers disagree the editor sends it to a third reviewer and does whatever he or she advises. This pastiche—which is not far from systems I have seen used—is little better than tossing a coin, because the level of agreement between reviewers on whether a paper should be published is little better than you'd expect by chance.1

            AGAIN ….. garbage in, garbage out ………….

          • zampogna

            The point is the theories are subject to testing. And faith isn’t. Guess which one I’ll trust more?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            the pint is science is not a measure of truth ….. truth is the measure of science ………

          • zampogna

            If it proves things to be true, then it’s a measure of truth. Duh.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … it only CONFIRMS what is already known ……….. so truth is the measure ….. it is the yardstick ….. it is the ruler ….. like GOD ………

          • zampogna

            No. Truth is not measured by a God we do not know exists or not. Truth is measured by how accurate something is found to be. Any time we use any kind of methodology to find out, we employ science. We do not employ God.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            The A PRIORI here is that God exists ….. and if it is a lie …… THE BURDEN IS ON YOU to PROVE IT A LIE ……. Zimbabwe …….

          • zampogna

            No, God’s existence is not a priori. Otherwise there would be no atheists. You don’t understand how burden of proof works, you make the claim there is a God, you prove it. And why do you THINK no one has ever done this?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ” science is all about peer review”

            A peer-reviewed journal said it, I have no reason to doubt it, that settles it ….. Unless new evidence becomes available.

          • zampogna

            That’s pretty much how it works, yes. A lot more trustworthy than “it says so in this 2000 year old book”.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            all true science comes from that book …. if your “science” were 2000 years old … would it be less science ……… what a STUPID comment ……….. truth does not change ……….. FAIL ………..

          • zampogna

            If your statement is true, there was no true science before the Bible was written. Come on. Don’t accuse ME of stupid statements when you say things like that.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … science came into being at the CREATION of all things …. so science is OLDER than the book ….. and if your standard of age is a disqualifier ….. then science is disqualified ……. which it is not ….. thus an UTTERLY stupid and self defeating comment ……….

          • zampogna

            Science did not have a starting point. Science is a method of finding out the answer to things. It is not dependent on your faith system in any way. Fail.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Yes, we absolutely can show that. Pick a study, follow the method, and replicate it. You’ll get the same results. Therefore, the conclusions it reached are accurate.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            problem is most of what many want to pass off as science CANT be replicated ……… so NOT science …… and the FACT is YOU nor ANYONE else here promoting science as accurate and as truth ……. HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO ABILITY NOR THE TIME NOR THE INCLINATION to do what you suggest ….. and you all BLINDLY ACCEPT any GARBAGE put in front of you as science…. AS SCIENCE ….. WHEN IT AINT ………..

          • zampogna

            Amos, when it can be replicated accurately over and over, it’s SCIENCE.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            but the problem is as i stated ……. far too much of what you are trying to pass off as science ……… CANT BE REPLICATED ………….. and is NOT SCIENCE …………. Manila ……. ESPECIALLY as it refers to who is gay and who is not and who is trans and who is not and they were “born” that way ……. and it is all GARBAGE ………. and is NOT replicable …… and YOU have never tested it in any way ….. and YOU and many others here accept by BLIND FAITH ……. that which is not verified and NOT truth ………..

          • zampogna

            Nothing we have talked about can’t be replicated and is unquestionably science. If you want to call it garbage state why it’s garbage and stop speaking in generalities. And no, blind faith is what YOU have. I go by what science knows. Not guesses.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            EVERYTHING you are talking about has no establishment with science outside of God …….. it is GARBAGE ……. and it is GARBAGE because it is OUTSIDE OF GOD …….. when you remove God from your observations you are REMOVING EVIDENCE ………. your observations ARE IN ERROR …………. it is GARBAGE …………… Topanga ……..

          • zampogna

            And you can’t even provide a single example, you just say “everything”. And people are supposed to take you seriously.

            Things on this earth are allowed to be outside of God. And they are allowed to be science. Free your mind of its religious constraints and you’ll see it’s true.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you just say “science says this and science says that” ……… and you expect anyone to take YOU seriously …….. you cannot prove one thing you have presented that COMPORTS to the truth ……….. NOTHING in this world is outside of GOD ………. NOTHING …….. SCIENCE BELONGS TO GOD …… LOGIC BELONGS TO GOD ….. and whether you recognize it or not …….. YOU BELONG TO GOD …… you are HIS creature and HIS creation …….

          • zampogna

            Science DOES say it. And science wouldn’t make the statement in the first place if it wasn’t true and they hadn’t tested it. Why is this such a threat to you? It’s truth because it’s proven to be true by careful study and replication. And has NOTHING and I mean NOTHING to do with God, who may or may not exist.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            NOPE …. FALSE science says so ……… it DOES NOT comport to the truth ……… FAIL ……

          • zampogna

            Science seeks truth and goes much further than faith to obtain it. That much you cannot deny.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Nope … science is performed by MEN OF BIAS …. and their bias is to REMOVE THE EVIDENCE of God …… therefore their observations are IN ERROR …….. because their science CANNOT comport to the truth WITHOUT GOD …………. ERROR is not science …..

          • zampogna

            All bias is removed with tests. You fail.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            BALONEY …… spelled O-S-C-A R M-E-Y-E-R ………….. you have failed ………

          • zampogna

            Your frustration is clear, but science is only science when it clears all its hurdles. And until it does, no one claims it is truth.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            that i am frustrated by your denials of God and truth ….. not really …. God has not intervened in your life ……. He may never …. it is not my decision … and it is not yours …. god will do or not do with you as He will ……. but you are still a liar and spreading lies …….

          • zampogna

            “God has not intervened in your life”
            You don’t know anything about my life.
            “you are still a liar and spreading lies”
            What lies? All I have done is state factual information about science and how it works, and I maintained and still do that it’s got nothing to do with faith or God or any of it.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i know what you have written and it is OBVIOUS ….. you explain yourself QUITE WELL ….. it aint rocket science …………

          • zampogna

            You keep saying the same things over and over – obvious, I reject truth, blah blah blah…but apart from generalizations you never say what I supposedly am rejecting or what it is about my words that makes anything “obvious”. All you are doing is dancing around a subject you don’t understand and trying to crowbar your God into it.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i keep saying them over and over because they refute your infantile objections and ERRORS ……….. you reject truth … you do not know truth and you do not have any to share because you have none ……. Zenyata ……..

          • zampogna

            There are no errors. And you don’t appear to know what truth is because you keep applying it to your faith. Faith is not truth.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you cannot even define faith as it applies to christianity ……… so i am not too worried ……… and BTW …. i did not make any comparison to faith and truth ….. that is just more of YOUR error ……….

          • zampogna

            Faith, want to talk about Christian Faith? Sola Fire, perhaps -faith alone? Let’s see how much I know that you don’t.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            actually it is sola FIDE ……. but that really tells nothing about your understanding of it …….. Zuniga ………

          • zampogna

            I obviously meant FIDE but was autocorrected. What I know about the teaching of Sola Fide is that it’s neither truth nor proof so you still lose, Amos.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i did not ask for proof … i asked what is faith and you have no answer ………. care to try again …………

          • zampogna

            I’ll let Archie Bunker answer that. “It ain’t supposed to make sense, it’s faith. Faith is something that you believe that nobody in his right mind would believe.”

            Archie Bunker by the way was a Christian.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            not an answer ….. so you cant answer ……. and you have faith ….. which you choose to ignore ….. and yet you try to make such a statement ……….

          • zampogna

            He gave a very good answer. If it makes no sense to believe it without reason or logic then I don’t.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            it is fully reasonable and fully logical …… but despite your proclamations ….. you reject knowledge and truth ……. so you have faith but you have no answer of what faith is much less christian faith and where it comes from to begin with ……… i said “define faith as it applies to christianity ” ……… you cannot ……..

          • zampogna

            How would you know even the FIRST thing about reason and logic when you keep pointing to a God you cannot prove?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            it is not my job to “prove Him” to anyone ….. that is not my job ….. the evidence is abundant ….. you reject the evidence ….. my job is to show you the truth ….. if you do not accept it ….. not my problem …. and not my job to convince you of what is obvious ……

          • zampogna

            I can’t reject evidence that you don’t provide, and all you can seem to say on the matter is that it’s “self evident” which it clearly isn’t or there wouldn’t be so many atheists in this world. You’ve shown me lots of things, but not a shred of proof, just lots of opinion and faith.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            God has provided the evidence ….. you reject that evidence because you reject God ….. the evidence is everything in existence …… you do not see it because you do not WANT to see it … because IF their is a God that you MUST recognize ….. then YOU would have to change ….. you have no interest in that change ……… so you reject it and you reject Him ………

          • zampogna

            What I want to see is evidence, Amos. What I am not interested in are things involving your faith. I don’t know if you are being willfully obtuse or if you are just too thick to understand. I want evidence, proof, tested results, something that I can depend on to be reliable. Not somebody’s superstition.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            if your eyes are open then the evidence is everything you see ……… “What I am not interested in are things involving your faith” …… and that is why you cannot see the evidence ……. you are blinded to it by your unrighteousness …….. you do not want to see it because it would interfere with your pride ….. you do not want to acknowledge God because that would require you to change …. and you do not want that change …. so you suppress the knowledge of His existence ……….. you lie to yourself about Him and the evidence ………….

          • zampogna

            My eyes are open and there is no evidence that is immediately apparent. And you know very well there are lots of atheists on this planet saying exactly the same thing. So how can you sit there and refuse to explain it and say it’s obvious and self-evident when practically everyone in the solar system would say you’re wrong?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            so you suppress that knowledge …. as i said ………..

          • zampogna

            No, I constantly search for it.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            no you do not … you reject it …….. and you accept the false knowledge ……

          • zampogna

            You don’t know me.
            Bye.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            see ya … would not want to be ya ….. dont let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya ……..

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i cannot force you to see what you do not want to see ……… i cannot make you acknowledge that which you refuse to do ….. therefore …. it is not my job to CONVINCE you of the truth …. it is my job to PRESENT you the truth …… what you do with it is your own affair ………..

          • zampogna

            You’re not presenting truth, you’re presenting faith…as I have shown you over, and over, and over.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … i am presenting you the truth … you reject the truth ……….. and you have yet to refute anything … the truth is irrefutable …… you just do not accept the truth ……..

          • zampogna

            Your faith can never, ever be a measurement of truth. You’ve been told this over and over, and I suspect will continue to be told it over and over because you continue to claim God to be a fact. A stupid idea is never made less stupid simply because you possess a faith.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            it is the only truth and you cannot even define christian faith so not sure you know what you are talking about …………

          • zampogna

            All right, so if faith if your only measure of truth, what about a Muslim’s equally zealous faith? Is that truth as well?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            there are no competing versions of the truth …………. a “zealous” belief in a lie does not make it true ………..

          • zampogna

            Nice dodge. You have faith. A Muslim has faith. A Hindu has faith. And you keep insisting faith is truth. So how is that even possible?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you have yet to explain with any clarity whatsoever what “faith” is much less christian faith and where it comes from ….. and you are trying to make all “faiths” (whatever that is) as co-equal …… and until you can explain what that is, christian faith, then there really is not much to discuss ….. we have no common vocabulary and understanding ………

          • zampogna

            Faith is belief without proof. The dictionary says about as much too but we both know how little stock you put in the dictionary.

            The Christian faith is the definition I just gave but utilizing Christian teachings. The Muslim faith – same thing but with Muslim teachings. Any other faith – same thing.

            But according to you faith is truth. I think we can call your definition of truth officially demolished now.

          • Bob Johnson

            The religion that is afraid of science dishonors God and commits suicide.
            – Ralph Waldo Emerson

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            yep … true enough ……. and ALL SCIENCE BELONGS to GOD ….. and there is no need for any christian to avoid or be afraid of it …… FALSE SCIENCE ….. different matter ….. avoiding the lies of false science is just wisdom ………….

          • Bob Johnson

            But you do dishonor science. You create your own category called “FALSE SCIENCE” and lump everything you do not wish to be true into that category. You reject any evidence you do not like and call it a lie. And so, slowly, you are committing suicide.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            no ……. sorry …. wrong …. and a lie ……….. false science is that which does not comport to the truth ……… truth is independent of science and is knowable …….. we all have the EXACT SAME EVIDENCE ….. the evidence does not change ….. what the person LOOKING at the evidence says it means ….. THAT IS WHAT makes it FALSE SCIENCE ……… we do not all see the evidence as the same thing because we all have a bias ….. many many people want to ELIMINATE part of the evidence ….. the evidence of GOD ….. and they then are in ERROR …….. and that elimination of evidence makes it false science …. the christian is not the one eliminating the evidence ….. Godless non-christains are …………

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you can show it ….. YOU NEVER DO SHOW IT ….. and ….. YOU have never tested one damn study YOU have ever presented ………. it is just YOUR blind FAITH …….. and it DOES NOT comport to the truth ………. you want to accept is BLINDLY ….. BE MY GUEST …… your funeral not mine ………..

          • Ambulance Chaser

            No, I haven’t, but other scientists who have the training, staff, equipment, and knowledge have. And their results agree (this is peer review, by the way).

            What evidence do you have to the contrary?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            so BLIND FAITH ….. and we have already discussed how useless “peer-review” is … and it AINT ….. so ALL YOU HAVE LEFT is “APPEAL TO AUTHORITY” …….. which MEANS NOTHING …. and you have YET to provide ANY study that had a corroborative study to back it up ……. and even then ….. it is still just BLIND FAITH and “APPEAL TO AUTHORITY” ………… because YOU personally have not independently verified a DAMN THING …

          • TheKingOfRhye

            If you don’t accept science as valid in the first place, what point is there in asking for a scientific study to confirm that it is? You’d just still be able to dismiss it as easily as you did before.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            because …. THERE IS NONE …. and you cant prove science is proof of anything that comports to the TRUTH ….. science DOES NOT MEASURE the truth ….. the TRUTH measures science …………

          • AMEN AMEN AMEN

          • zampogna

            “You cant prove science is proof of anything that comports to the TRUTH”

            Of course we can. Gravity is a scientific principle. If you step off a cliff you’re going to plummet to your death. That’s the truth. What are you struggling with understanding that?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Science belongs to God ……… you are stealing from God ….. yes …. if you step off a cliff you will fall …. that is truth and that is science …… BUT …. it is the truth even if the science IS NOT THERE ….. the truth is INDEPENDENT of ANY science …………..and the truth is the MEASURE of ALL science ………… NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND ………… Topanga ……..

          • zampogna

            You cannot steal from a God that you don’t believe exists.

            “It is the truth even if the science IS NOT THERE”

            What are you talking about? That IS the science. You fall and die because of what science explains. Aren’t you getting tired of making ridiculous claims by now?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            so again …. and if it is a lie …… THE BURDEN IS ON YOU to PROVE IT A LIE ……. Pamona ……. the A PRIORI …… the PRESUPPOSITION is that He does exist ….. and this is a CHRISTIAN forum …..

          • zampogna

            Is it giving you some juvenile thrill to be calling me different variations of my name? Is it that hard for to you have a civil conversation?

            Also, you don’t have to keep stating that it’s a Christian forum. I know so many Christians who would shake their heads reading at some of the stuff you’re saying.

            Burden of proof is yours. You claim it’s perfectly obvious that God exists. So you’ve answered one of the greatest questions that has plagued mankind for centuries, congratulations, well done. Now all you have to do is present your proof and we will go from there.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            look Zimbabwe ……….. if you know it is a christian forum …. then you should know the A PRIORI, the PRESUPPOSITION here is that God exists …… you do not want to believe and accept that truth … i do not care ……… but everything you have to say after you have made that point is GARBAGE and will not be taken seriously ….. and neither will your name ……

          • zampogna

            It doesn’t matter what kind of forum it is, you don’t get to make the claim that there is a God. The most you can do, which is true of any person of faith, is that you have FAITH that there is a God. Any other statement is blatantly lying.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Truth IS NOT A CLAIM ………. God is NOT A CLAIM ….. your DENIAL of His existence IS A CLAIM that YOU cannot prove ………. by ANY MEANS ………..

          • zampogna

            I don’t deny God’s existence. But I can’t prove it either. Neither can you. Truth is self-evident.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Truth is either ACCEPTED OR REJECTED …….. there is no NEED TO PROVE that which is SELF EVIDENT ……. HOW do you NOT get that ………….. the existence of God is completely self evident to EVERY PERSON …… but there are those who say “I can’t prove it either.” ….. and that is the LIE they tell themselves ……… and so they DO NOT know God or the truth …… and you cannot share what you do not possess ……………

          • zampogna

            Truth is accepted AND rejected, but neither one matters. Truth is truth when is is proven. Nothing WHATSOEVER to do with God.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you reject the truth ………. you reject God …… you have no truth ………… truth is not proven … AS YOU SAID …. it is SELF EVIDENT … and if it is SELF EVIDENT then no proof is required …….

          • zampogna

            I don’t reject the truth. I embrace it. But truth isn’t what you think it is, obviously, because you keep talking about things related to your faith and belief system.
            I believe only in things that are truthful and can be proven. If they are self evident then the proof will be very easy to see.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you reject God … you reject that truth ….. you have no knowledge of truth when you reject God and scripture ……….. that is not embracing truth …… that is rejection ……

            “If they are self evident then the proof will be very easy to see.”

            unless you are in denial … and you have STATED as much ………. and you JUST STATED IT …. QUOTE: I believe only in things that are truthful and can be proven ……. thus rejection of truth ….. and rejection of God ……….. how can you know they are truthful when YOU CANNOT PROVE THEM ………….. can you PROVE love exists …….. what does it taste like or smell like or even look like ………. and it is NOT very easy to see love ………. you have no basis to know it is truthful when you do not know truth ……… you reject it …… you are a liar …….. Topanga ………

          • zampogna

            No, I don’t reject the truth. I reject every ridiculous idea you’ve laid out here and I ESPECIALLY reject the way you keep trying to make things about logic and reason and science to be about your faith. But nothing I’ve said is wrong. You fail.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you reject truth because you reject God ……. you are a liar …… logic and reason and science ….. BELONG TO GOD …… has nothing to do with “faith” ….. has to do with OWNERSHIP AND CREATION …….. man did not create science or reason or logic ….. those were bestowed … BY GOD ……..

          • zampogna

            I don’t reject God either, just your interpretation of God. You are a liar, and you’re not even interested in what truth is since you keep using it to refer to matters that are unproven such as your faith. Show me any science text that says God bestowed anything. You can’t, because you’re making it up to crowbar your religion in.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope …. you said you do not know if God exists ….. that is a lie and it is rejection of truth and of God ……

          • zampogna

            No one knows if God exists, and anyone who says they do is lying. God is a matter of faith only.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            everyone knows God exists ….. your claim is you do not know ….. and you lie to yourself about it to maintain your lie …….. unregenerate again ………

          • zampogna

            No, everyone does not know God exists. It’s been a question asked through the ages and no one has the answer. With you have faith or you don’t. Clearly you do.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            every man knows because God placed that knowledge in every man and the evidence of God is abundant ….. you reject the truth and the evidence …….. you are unregenerate ……….

          • zampogna

            That is merely your opinion. Truth and evidence exist separately from whatever or whoever you believe to have created the world.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            not my opinion …. it is Gods word ……..

          • zampogna

            It’s your opinion. If God wants to come tell us all, that’s a different matter.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Gods word …. and only your OPINION that it is not ……….God did come and tell us ….. thats what the NT is ALL ABOUT ………

          • zampogna

            Your *** INTERPRETATION *** of God’s word, making it different than every other Christian.

          • 313Kriss

            You have never walked out at night and looked at the universe and been amazed by its beauty and design or even during the day. Have you ever wondered why God gave us so many different trees with different shaped leaves and colors. My gosh, the colors of this world are simply beautiful in every season and especially in the tropics. The other planets do not have this lushness.
            Faith means you don’t have to prove God exists…………because you already know in your heart that He is definitely real.

          • zampogna

            What you describe is a logical fallacy called the Argument from Incredulity. But I’m not going to give you a hard time about it.

          • 313Kriss

            Before I accepted Jesus as my Savior, I don’t think I looked at creation and was so amazed by its beauty, diversity, color, complexity, wisdom and design.
            I don’t know if that supports your argument or not. I do know, after becoming a Christian, my entire world changed for the better.

          • 313Kriss

            What about all the prayers He answers because of our faith ?

          • TychoJames

            Wow are you ever a colossal, mindless idiot. Nobody knows if God exists, no one. And no one has ever proven it. You have FAITH that God exists, that’s different. But you are the classic science denying fundie head-in-the-sand shithead who wants to hide in your Bible from the big bad world. It’s shameful.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            EVERYBODY has knowledge that God exists ….. there are those who are in active denial of the truth …….. FAITH of God is a GIFT FROM GOD ….. it is NOT self generated ……. and SCIENCE BELONGS TO GOD as does LOGIC BELONG TO GOD …… to deny science is to DENY GOD ….. so your premise is FALLACIOUS ……….. there is no dichotomy between science and God ……….. that is YOUR LIE ………….. and your post is a TOS VIOLATION ….. was nice not knowing you ………..

          • TychoJames

            Being as willfully, fantastically stupid as you are gives you no excuse for denying basic bloody facts. Your God is completely unnecessary for science to do what it has always done. The entire world runs on scientific principles discovered by MAN, not GOD and NO you have no proof your God even exists.christian forum or not, everyone knows that you have only faith and nothing else. You asshole!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            TOS VIOLATION …………..

          • TychoJames

            You are a HUMAN BEING VIOLATION! Your BRAIN SHOULD BE SENT BACK TO THE FACTORY!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            TOS VIOLATION ………….

          • Jason Todd

            Another flag for profanity.

            Watch your language at this website.

          • Jason Todd

            Flagged for profanity.

          • 313Kriss

            zampogna, God himself even states that He has made Himself known through creation. If you truly seek God, you will find Him.

          • zampogna

            It doesn’t work. I tried.

          • DrewTwoFish

            Um, er, science is all about seeking the truth. Not a moral truth. It is only a tool.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            no … science has become all about money for grants to do research and it has become a tool to put forth false information to get people to believe anything under the guise of authority …. and many are fooled into thinking that just because the label “science” is attached to an idea that it has validity ….. when it does not ….. and there is only ONE truth …. there are not competing versions of the truth ………science has no authority for anything ….. science may support the truth …. but science is NOT the truth ……….

          • DrewTwoFish

            I didn’t say science is the truth. It is a tool used for seeking the truth.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … it has become a tool of propaganda …………

          • DrewTwoFish

            OK. Then I guess you can stop taking medicine, flying in a plane, and using your cell phone.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            not the science we are talking about ……….. this article is about HOMOSEXUALITY …… and “science” that pushes HOMOSEXUALITY is FALSE SCIENCE ………. so i guess your strawman is a failure ……….and actually scripture talks about all those things ………… and just because a label of science is put on something does not make it science ……

          • DrewTwoFish

            What do you mean by pushing homosexuality, in this context?
            What straw man have I set up?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Then I guess you can stop taking medicine, flying in a plane, and using your cell phone.”

            STRAW MAN …………..

          • DrewTwoFish

            You made the sweeping statement that science has become all about money. Just because science discoveries don’t fit neatly with your theology doesn’t make them wrong.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i did … and it has ….. when it pushes a social agenda as in this story about homosexuality ….. it is ….. what you mentioned has nothing to do with the article and is not anything i brought up … STRAW MAN …………

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i have no interpretation of the scriptures … that makes it NOT scripture ……….. sorry ……….

          • DrewTwoFish

            Huh?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            there is only one correct “understanding” of scripture (Gods word) ….. and that is Gods “understanding” ……….

          • DrewTwoFish

            Are you God?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            God has given us the tool to understand His word …………

          • DrewTwoFish

            The Holy Spirit? How do you know which voice is talking to you?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            His Word ……. the Scriptures ……….. if you want to hear Gods voice, read the scriptures ….. if you want to hear His voice audibly, READ IT OUT LOUD ……….

          • DrewTwoFish

            …and how do I know it’s his word?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            truth is either accepted or rejected ….. not my job to convince you … my job is to PRESENT you the truth ……

          • DrewTwoFish

            So, no answer. I figured.

            How is that any different than a Muslim presenting me with the Koran?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you do not like the answer …. not the same thing ……… “How is that any different than a Muslim presenting me with the Koran?” ……. the Koran is not the truth …. there is only one truth …. there are no competing versions of the truth ………… if you cannot figure out which is and which is not the truth ….. then the problem is yours ……… there are passages in the Koran that are diametrically opposed to the bible ….. they cannot both be true ……..

          • DrewTwoFish

            You’re right. I don’t like the answer but not because I don’t agree with it but because I find it lacking.

            Your claim that the Bible is the truth is meaningless on its own.

          • MarcoPolo

            You sir, have apparently NOT read the Koran. If you had, you would likely be very surprised at the similarities to the Bible.
            Sage advice from my late grandfather (a Methodist Minister): “Please always keep in mind, that you might be wrong.”
            Humility is also a universal virtue!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            really …. hmmm ….

            “O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs.” (Koran 4:171)

            “They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.” (Koran 5:73)

            Surah 5-33

            33. The punishment for those who fight God and His Messenger, and strive to spread corruption on earth, is that they be killed, or crucified, or have their hands and feet cut off on opposite sides, or be banished from the land. That is to disgrace them in this life; and in the Hereafter they will have a terrible punishment.

            Chapter (9) surat l-tawbah (The Repentance)

            Sahih International: Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture – [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

            Pickthall: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

            Yusuf Ali: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

            Shakir: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

            Muhammad Sarwar: Fight against those People of the Book who have no faith in God or the Day of Judgment, who do not consider unlawful what God and His Messenger have made unlawful, and who do not believe in the true religion, until they humbly pay tax with their own hands.

            Mohsin Khan: Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

            Arberry: Fight those who believe not in God and the Last Day and do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden — such men as practise not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book — until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled.

            Gee …. nothing parallel to that in scripture …. in fact it is DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED ….. so guess what ….. ONE OF THEM IS A LIE ……… because …. they CANNOT both be true …….. and do you have difficulty figuring out which ………..

          • MarcoPolo

            Why can you not accept that more than ONE religion can be TRUE?
            I’m assuming that if you are a ‘true Christian’, you aren’t arrogant, thus why claim that ONLY YOUR religion to be the TRUE one?

            How can all the others be wrong? Gaia seems fairly un-conflicting with the TRUTH about this life! Why might you think that theory to be blasphemous? Hinduism and Buddhism as well!

            As long as people construct beliefs that claim their God to be superior to all others, then surely we will NEVER know peace.

            You’ve actually supported my point by quoting the Koran.
            If one were to embrace the Holy Bible as the “word of God”, then surely you’re not dismissing the Old Testament?
            In that portion of the Bible one can find similar atrocities and archaic tenets that make any religion look barbaric.

            Thank you for proffering those verses. I still posit that religion of ANY stripe is a subjective emotion supported by texts that likely included parables and fables that were intended to guide Mankind. All good, and possibly all bad!

            Count me out of such wizardry and make believe, and consider entering the contemporary world that we live in today. Science based facts with a sprinkling of imagination. That should be sufficient for moving forward, don’t you think?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            because it is simple reasoning …. two DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED ideas CANNOT both be true ……….. any simpleton knows this …. you cannot be a little bit pregnant …. you cannot have the light on AND off ….

            “How can all the others be wrong?”

            because they were created to be that way ….. until God intervenes ……… it is all God/Christs choice …. it is not our choice …….. He decides when we are born, where we are born, at what time IN TIME we are born, how we are born (in what circumstances), He decides if and when we are born again, and He decides when we die ……….. it is all about God and for the GLORY of God …. and contrary to most men … IT IS NOT ABOUT US ……….

          • MarcoPolo

            I thank you for your honest and heartfelt response. Not everybody practices such civility on these comment threads.

            However, at the risk of insulting your chosen religion, I disagree with the likelihood of all things being “decided” by God/Christ.

            Firstly, the Bible’s Old Testament is not that diametrically opposed to the Koran and many other ancient religious texts. They pretty much all state absolutes for the purpose of convincing their respective followers to hold allegiance to a particular strain of practice, (Dogma).
            Both are extremely Patriarchal, which today, seems painfully unjust to more than half the population. (Full disclosure, I am a ‘card-carrying’ Feminist), and we simply cannot hang our future on some ancient fables that negate the value of half of our population.

            I completely agree with you on the need for Man to focus his sights on “God” versus Man. Anytime we focus on things so inwardly, we lose focus (and balance) on the Big picture, and therefore, we stumble.

            In my opinion, the Christian faith is but one of many religions that is striving to be relevant, and effective for guiding mankind in our current Age. And I wish it well!

            Peace to you my brethren.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Bible’s Old Testament is not that diametrically opposed to the Koran and many other ancient religious texts.”

            yes it is ……… “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” … Allah and YHVH are not the same God …….

            “Both are extremely Patriarchal, which today, seems painfully unjust to more than half the population.”

            then you should be a christian or at least a Jew ….. Christ talked to many women and gave them equal treatment among believers …. at a time when such acts were consider very improper ……. the woman at the well …. Mary and Martha …. women under Roman rule were chattel ….. and were treated as such …. but not in the Jewish and Christian communities …….. so no …. not the same and no conflation can be made ….

            “the Christian faith is but one of many religions that is striving to be relevant”

            “striving to be relevant” …. only makes one IRRELEVANT …… to be “relevant” requires you be like everyone else ….. fail …. in doing that one has become irrelevant ……. the church needs to be apart from the world …. otherwise it is nothing more than a coffee klatch or social club ……. christianity is not a “religion” in the way man has decided to define religion …….. scripture only recognizes one thing as true or pure religion and to be sought after ….

            Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

          • MarcoPolo

            I respect your decision to make Christianity YOUR religion of choice.

            I also never seek to change another person’s personal faith in the supernatural, so I can only wish you the best in your journey.

            Thanks for your honest exchanges.
            Peace brother!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            again … it was not my decision ………. it was not my “choice” ………. sorry …….. try again …….

          • MarcoPolo

            Sorry, but I simply don’t understand how that works.
            How would anyone expect to know whether one religion (or another religion) was choosing its parishioner(s)?

            If you didn’t choose Christianity as YOUR religion, are you saying IT chose YOU?

            Please enlighten me as to how that works? Thanks in advance.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            that is christianity …. that is scripture ………. God/Christ does the choosing …. all true christians are predestined to salvation ……..

            Romans
            8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
            8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
            8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

            Those who will be saved are PREDESTINED to be saved …. it is not our decision … there is no “decisional salvation” except that Father and Son have decided ….. from the foundation of the world …….. according to the good pleasure of his will ………….

            Ephesians
            1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
            1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
            1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
            1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
            1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
            1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
            1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
            1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
            1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

          • MarcoPolo

            Thanks for such a rapid and thorough response to my question, Amos Moses-He>i.

            I’ll admit, the whole religion thing truly unsettles me. Too many mystical measures involved. I always thought all one had to do to become a saved individual (Christian) was to ask Jesus into their life. I had no idea that His followers were pre-selected. Who knew!?

            I still contend that there is only ONE God, and EVERY religion has their own interpretation of It/Him/Her. That’s a whole lot less complicated and also less competitive. At least that’s what I think, and I’m okay with that.

            May you live a long and healthy life!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            there is only one “interpretation” that matters ….. Gods …. we do not get to tell Him what He is …. He has told us ……. we have no authority to alter it ………

            “That’s a whole lot less complicated and also less competitive. At least that’s what I think, and I’m okay with that.”

            it sounds infinitely more complicated than Gods plan …. God is God ….. He sent His Son to do all the work for us ….. that is why when He died on the cross ….. He said “It is finished” …. there was nothing left for man to do …. Christ lived the perfect life for us …. took the penalty we were due ….. and gave us the grace of not having to pay that debt …. because all of Gods wrath for our iniquities were poured out on Christ ………. i cant think of anything more simple, more loving, and more gracious …. and yet people want to reject that ……… ¯_(ツ)_/¯ ……….

          • MarcoPolo

            I am delighted that you are content and fulfilled by your description of how the Christian faith system supposedly ‘works’ for you. Hallelujah!

            However, to me, your description seems so much more mystical and exclusive. I was raised in the Christian faith, so I already know all the dialogue and religious vernacular, and it still seems like a departure from reality and reason. But that’s just me!

            I’ve never thought “God” needed a field Lieutenant (Jesus) to bestow His benevolence. And in the Old Testament/Ten Commandments, the very first one states that there “…will be NO other God before me…” That sounds like something Trump would say. A tad insecure? Yeah! And let’s not get started on the whole Virgin birth thing! Sheesh! But I digress.

            Consider our Native Americans for one moment. Would their “God(s)” not be an acceptable Deity? And what would make your God more, or less acceptable? Those questions shouldn’t pose any type of threat to one’s faith no matter which faith one worships. Just as we must all coexist with people whose religious diversity may counter, or coincide with yours/mine.

            Anyway, I appreciate your honest exchanges, and I wish you well in your journey through this life.

            Namaste’
            MarcoPolo

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “I’ve never thought “God” needed a field Lieutenant (Jesus) to bestow His benevolence. ”

            God the Father does not need Christ …..men do ……. God makes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust ….. but that is not a get into heaven free card …….. God provides everything we need here ……… but only Christ gets us to the Father ……..

            “Would their “God(s)” not be an acceptable Deity? And what would make your God more, or less acceptable? ”

            there is only one acceptable path to God, and that is Christ …. now it is a common argument that it is “unfair” that some people were born where the gospel was not … there is nothing fair about God ….. it is not one of His qualities …. He is sovereign …. He is King … the King has certain qualities that do not lean toward equality ….. that is mans concept …. not Gods …. God is here for a particular people … and only those people … and those people He already knows and knew before He created the creation …….. those people belong to Him …. and those are the only ones He is here to save …. the elect of God ….

          • MarcoPolo

            Here is where we must part company. You said:
            “…God is here for a particular people…and only those people…”
            Sorry, but that smacks of all kinds of exclusion and prejudice!
            An Omniscient God wouldn’t exist for just a few, and surely an ever-powerful, all knowing God should be capable of ‘knowing’ every single microbe in existence worldwide, so why would anyone seek to describe their chosen deity as anything less? That’s a very limited mindset.

            Sorry Amos Moses, but this is where we part company.

            This make believe Fairy tale is too much for any brain, and you’re making mine hurt, so goodbye Sir!

            Namaste’

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Sorry, but that smacks of all kinds of exclusion and prejudice!”

            you bet it is …. God is not all inclusive … he is specifically EXCLUSIVE …. we have absolutely no right to be in heaven …. we have no demand we can place on Him to save us …. just as you or i have absolutely no right to demand grace or forgiveness from anyone ….. WHY would you think God owes us anything …………..

          • MarcoPolo

            I totally agree with you!
            I personally think it is arrogant for thinking there should even be such a place as Heaven! Why should anyone expect something, or anything after this life? Really!!

            If one is living life ‘accordingly’, shouldn’t THAT be sufficient?
            I’ve NEVER demanded anything from God. I speak to the “Spirits” when I’m in communion with Nature, but I certainly never make demands. That’s silly!

          • MarcoPolo

            I think the whole concept is Man’s making. A whole lot of magical mystical mumbo-jumbo things to keep track of, just seems ludicrous to me and many others. Religious faith shouldn’t require such contortions, or dogmatic rituals to keep score.

            Keep your faith Brother, just don’t feel obliged to convert me.
            Peace!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            what “dogmatic rituals” are you speaking of ………..

          • MarcoPolo

            They all have rituals. It’s just that some are more elaborate than others.
            My point was that the simpler a religion, the better. That’s why I think Buddhism is probably the simplest, cleanest and most honest.

            Peace!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            so you choose God …. and if that quits working …. you will choose a different one …. and when that quits working …. what …. not any kind of accusation ….. just a question …… and what about Buddhism is going to get you to an after life and heaven ….. or is there even a heaven ……. and what do you have to do to get there ………. and what do you think christians have to do to get there …………..

          • MarcoPolo

            All I know is that when I die, I’ll be dead. That’s it!!
            All the other ‘stuff’ I don’t care about.
            You only go round once, make it count!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i see …. and if you are wrong ……….. can you be wrong …. so not really a god or a religion …. just a philosophy …..and if the philosophy is wrong … then what happens … just trying to think through where you are ……….

          • MarcoPolo

            As I have always claimed: I can always be wrong. That’s something that too many religious folks seem to miss, that they might be wrong!
            You seem agitated by those who don’t accept your opinion of what “Truth” is.
            Keep in mind, religious faith is just that….FAITH! Not Scientific fact, but merely hope, wishful thinking, positive mindset and supplicative musings.

            I can no longer tolerate your lack of mutual respect, which is on display with your other exchanges in this thread, and thus, I will again, wish you well, and adieu!

            Namaste’

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            truth is not an opinion …. and i am put off by the lies others put forward as if it was truth …. whether they know it is a lie or not ….. it is the job of the christian to present the truth …. to point out their errors … if they accept it … then we go further ….. it is not my job to convince anyone of the truth …. that job belongs to Christ ….. and here is the problem with “Keep in mind, religious faith is just that….FAITH! Not Scientific fact, but merely hope, wishful thinking, positive mindset and supplicative musings.” …. no it is not …. and not all faiths are co-equal …. nor are they “musings””positive mindset””wishful thinking” …. truth is truth for every person … it does not change from person to person or faith to faith …. and it is FAR mare fact than any science …. but if you gotta go, you gotta go ….. see ya ….

          • MarcoPolo

            “…it is the job of the christian to present the truth ….”
            “….. it is not my job to convince anyone of the truth …. ”

            Those are YOUR words. is it just me, or do those two sentences contradict one another?

            My reference to Buddhism was to point out that there needn’t be so much dogma and ritual trappings involved with religion. Buddhism doesn’t have all those idiosyncracies, Thank God, wherever She is!
            There are as many religions as there are parishioners who believe that only THEIR religion speaks the truth. Therefore making ALL of them and NONE of them, the ONE TRUE religion. Period!

            It would appear that you won’t give up on trying to prove your opinion/faith to be correct, while claiming all others to be false.
            So what makes YOUR religion superior to all the others? A single archaic book? Promises made to you during a Sunday School class?
            etc…?

            All of this “Religion” stuff is simply psychology dressed in a different color. Religion and reality are only as real as YOUR psyche can process. So don’t get so overworked by it. Nobody comes out of this alive!

            Personally, I think you’re full of contradictions and hidden motives. Why else would you employ using a famous actor’s photo as your avatar?
            Can you not show the “real Amos Moses…? Hiding much?!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … it is you … truth is either accepted or rejected …. all i can do is speak the truth, present the truth ….. what those who hear it do with it is Christs business ….. thats how predestination works ……..

            “Science = Facts, Religious Faith = Belief. You proffered something completely contradictory to the truth”

            Again …. nope … i showed you the truth … one you have not been told before …. truth exists independent of any proof … scientific or otherwise ….. gravity exists whether any one has been told about it or proven it to them …… and not all faiths are equal … to many “faiths”, it is just “A story we agree to tell each other over and over until we forget it’s a lie.” …. only Christ has declared He is the Truth …. Truth is a person …. Christ is truth personified ………

          • MarcoPolo

            “Truth is a Person”! That should be your bumper sticker. (I know what you mean, but it still smacks me as funny!)

            I’ve appreciated our exchanges but feel we’re not going to get much further, so Thanks again, and Bon Voyage!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            it is my bumper sticker …….

          • MarcoPolo

            I ‘EXPECTED’ to be through with you!
            Now say goodbye. Sheesh!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            rotfl ………. dude … you are not very “tolerant” ……..

          • MarcoPolo

            Yawn…

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “at the risk of insulting your chosen religion”

            i did not choose it …… no one chooses to be a christian ….. God/Christ choose those that they would desire …… it had nothing to do with what i wanted …. they did not ask my permission ….. those who are true christians are predestined by God to be so ….. do not ask me how they decide who will and who will not be chosen …. i do not know ……..

          • MarcoPolo

            That is, the Truth as YOU understand it! As conveyed to you through the Holy Bible. That’s all well and good, but that’s only ONE religious book, and there are thousands of religions who have written documentation espousing their (own) interpretation of “God” and “His/Her way to live.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope …. that is THE SCRIPTURES ……. that is the truth …. there are no competing versions of the truth ……….. sorry ……… when there are ” thousands of religions who have written documentation espousing their (own) interpretation of “God”” …. then one is true and all the others are a lie …. very simple ….. if you cannot figure out which is correct … then YOU have the problem ……..

          • MarcoPolo

            There is NO problem accepting that there exists more than ONE “true” religion. Your logic suggests that anything other than YOUR religion is wrong. By that same logic, taken in comparison to other worldly traits and practices such as Language, one would be mistaken to claim one language was more true than any other language!

            I remind you that for some people, it is logic that dictates, but it is emotion that rules! So let’s at least be reasonable in accepting the diversity of mankind’s DNA, Language, Foods, Music and Religion.
            And YES, they can ALL be true! The beauty of Life is that you get to choose!!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “There is NO problem accepting that there exists more than ONE “true” religion”

            yes there is …. if it is true …. then it is not a lie …. there is only one truth …. everything else is untrue or a lie …….. this is not rocket science … it is simple reasoning ……

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            we all have the EXACT same evidence …. it comes down to what worldview a person holds as to what the evidence means …..

          • 313Kriss

            Science, over time, has been proven wrong. Here is why. Science is based on what can be seen, tested at a point in time – man always has limited knowledge at a point in time. When new data presents itself , perhaps from another scientific observation and testing, the old may be proven wrong.
            A long while ago, man believed the earth was flat – we know how that changed. When research firms develop and test new meds within a test group and it ‘appears’ that the medicine is a good thing to release into the market place, but, the release within a much larger group reveals that some are actually harmed by the new medicine……then science was only right within a narrow focus.
            Only God has wisdom, knowledge and discernment without limits.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            That’s just the way science works. None of that proves science ITSELF wrong.

          • 313Kriss

            It proves that science at any point in time, is the wisdom of man which is limited.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            I won’t argue that. Science doesn’t claim to have all the answers. But, again, that doesn’t prove that science is not a valid way of understanding the world around us.

          • MCrow

            Hey Amos, still waiting for you to show me where in the Bible it says that the Bible is the source of all scientific knowledge.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            do you want a phrase that says god created science ….. or do you want examples of REAL CORRECT science in scripture ……. science is measured by the truth …… science is not a measure of the truth …….

          • MCrow

            You’re saying that the Bible is the sole source of truth. I want where, in the Bible, it says that

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “You’re saying that the Bible is the sole source of truth. ”

            there is only one truth …. there are not competing truths ….. there is truth and there are lies …… and ONLY CHRIST claims to be the truth ………. no other person in history of any level has made that claim with any veracity …………….

            John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

            all of scripture is about one person and one person only …. and that is Christ …………. OT and NT ……….

          • MCrow

            Keep hitting that straw man. Never talked about competing truths, nor claims of Christ. I am asking where, in the Bible, I need can find this lovely statement of why I can throw away science textbooks and replace them with Bibles. All material facts, I think you like to say. I want evidence that this book is flawless as you claim. Surely it would at least have mention of its own inerrency?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Never talked about competing truths, nor claims of Christ.” “You’re saying that the Bible is the sole source of truth. I want where, in the Bible, it says that”

            YES YOU DID ….. if the bible is not the only truth …. then there are competing versions of truth …. and there are none ……….. and i gave where in the bible it says just that ………….. there is only Christ as TRUTH ………

          • MCrow

            Let me repeat that question: where, in the Bible, does it say that the Bible is the sole source of all facts?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “You’re saying that the Bible is the sole source of truth. I want where, in the Bible, it says that”
            “Let me repeat that question: where, in the Bible, does it say that the Bible is the sole source of all facts?”
            “Hey Amos, still waiting for you to show me where in the Bible it says that the Bible is the source of all scientific knowledge.”

            you keep changing the topic ….. how do i know what you mean if you cannot accurately say what you mean ………….

          • MCrow

            Sorry my phrasing wanders: where, in the Bible, does it say that the Bible is the sole source of all facts?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i never said it was the source of all facts ……. facts are not necessarily the truth ….. the facts it does contain are true …. but i never said “all facts” …….. if so then show me ……..

          • MCrow

            Check a conversation from a few months back from the “Christian Geologist Sues National Park Service for Denying Request to Conduct Research in Grand Canyon” comments where you claim the Bible contains all material facts.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            material facts are not all facts ……..

            Material fact is a fact that is important, significant or essential to a reasonable person in deciding whether to engage or not to engage in a particular transaction

          • MCrow

            Sorry I misunderstood. I don’t study law. So, then, tell me where in the Bible does it state that the Bible contains all material facts.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            again … i did not say it contains all material facts …. it contains all the material facts about God for a person to know the truth ……… you are making a sweeping statement about my comment that i do not believe i made ……… but specifically ……… “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” … now if you want to relate that to science which is God revealed in His creation we can go there ……..

            2 Timothy
            3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
            3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
            3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
            3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
            3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
            3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

          • MCrow

            “for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” I see nothing about it containing, nor even mentioning, nature. I read only that it is useful for seeking salvation, establishing religious doctrine, stating when someone has strayed from said doctrine, bringing that person back to the fold, and improving in Christian morality.

            I read nothing about needing to believe these books are scientifically accurate, nor that these books need be for that purpose

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            God is the Creator of all things …… and that includes nature …… it is all His by default ………

            John
            1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
            1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
            1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
            1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
            1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

          • MCrow

            Cool. Still not seeing where the Bible dictates science.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            God created ALL THINGS … and that includes SCIENCE, LOGIC and REASON …. all of those GOOD things He created ….. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made …. guess what …. that INCLUDES SCIENCE ……….. that INCLUDES YOU …………

          • MCrow

            Cool. If God dictates science, I’m sure he put in the Bible somewhere that I have to follow this collection of books, disregarding all things outside of it.

            Show me. Make me a believer.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope …. He allows you to be immersed in your own folly …. the only one who can make you a believer is God/Christ …. and if they desire it to be so …. they will ….. and you will have no say in it ….. but until they intervene ….. you will continue in your folly …….. if you are PREDESTINED to be saved …. you will be saved …. nothing anyone can do to stop it …….. so believe that or dont ….

          • MCrow

            Oh, how very Calvinistic! So God made me specifically to burn in hell? Seems rather petty

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you do not know that …. i do not know that …. maybe …. but until He intervenes …… we have no way to know ….. but you are still here …. you are not running away ……… so who knows ………

          • MCrow

            And now the ultimate question: if this is true, why do you care? About anything? Your salvation must be assured, and everyone else, well, what does it matter?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            because that is one of the things He had for me to do ….. not my choice …. His choice …

          • MCrow

            I suppose in this case you’re right: if God creates people and sends them to eternal punishment without choice, I will not worship that kind of deity.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            everything is His choice …. including the choice of you not worshiping Him …. so he has you one way or the other …… he allows you to do that by NOT intervening and allowing you to be in your own folly …. you were created by Him …… He owns you …. He decided your birth and He will decide when you die ….. worship or no …………..

          • MCrow

            I’ve replied to all your examples before and you never gave me the courtesy of replying before, so I will just say this now: you can’t provide the passage I’m asking for because it isn’t there

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you cant accept the passage that is there because of your own unrighteousness ……. not my problem …. yours …………

          • MCrow

            *chuckles* All this and it comes down to me being a sinner. Whelp, glad to know your entire point is that you’re better than me. Confirms what I suspected all along

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Whelp, glad to know your entire point is that you’re better than me”

            we are all sinners …. so welcome to the club …………. and BTW …. i am FAR WORSE than you will ever guess ……. thief, murderer, blasphemer, a man of unclean lips, a liar, a person totally unworthy to be saved ever ….. and yet for some unknown reason …. God/Christ saved me ….. and it was not my decision ….. it was theirs …. all of it was their decision …. they did not ask my permission ….. they did not ask if today was okay or should they come back next week when i was not too busy ….. they grabbed me by the scruff of my neck and said “…. you are done with all that NOW. Now, I have things for you to do” …. thats how it works ……….

          • MCrow

            I had a pastor once who told me to invent a conversion story. I’m going to have to take yours with a pinch of salt

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            there was nothing to invent …… and that was really bad advice from a pastor ………

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            information about disease and life condition in the blood …. the basis of modern medicine ….. in Leviticus THOUSANDS of years ago …..

            17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

            go to a doctor with an ailment and see how far you get without BLOOD WORK …. usually not very far ………

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Modern asepsis …………. not discovered in modern science until the 1800’s ….. in Leviticus THOUSANDS of years ago ….. recorded in the bible ………… especially quarantine …. not used in MODERN science until the 1700’s ………..

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Earth FLOATS in space ……… 3000 years ago ………..when the rest of the world said it sat on elephants or turtles or Atlas’ shoulders …….
            26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
            26:8 He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Light waves and radio waves …… Job 38:35 ……… that is most of MODERN communication including telephones, cell phones, television, satellites and the dishes to communicate with them, the internet, etc….. and this was THOUSANDS of years ago in the scriptures …..

            38:35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Matthew
            19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

            male and female ….. BINARY …. TWO …. not trans-anything ….. man and woman …. ONLY ….

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and all SCIENTIFICALLY SOUND …………..

          • MCrow

            Again, I’ve responded to all these before and you never gave me the courtesy of a response back, so I will not waste my time doing so now

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you have no response except to say you do not want to accept it ………. see ya ………

          • MCrow

            I have responded. You’ve posted all these before and I replied to each one. You never replied back, so I assumed you had no response

          • zampogna

            If I may state his position on the matter: Basically, Jesus is magic.

    • MamaBearly

      So you think people who should given the authority to punish sinners here on earth? I’m sorry I guess I missed that scripture; could you please show it to me?
      I do not support their sin, it’s against my God. But I do know it is not supposed to be punished for here, as Jesus will be the Only authority to judge anyone of their sins.
      I also know that I will support that they should have equal rights. Because it has absolutely no connection to their sin.

      Tell me something,,,
      Do you think that Jesus would tell a sinner that they had no right to place to live? Because of their sin?
      Would Jesus say that a sinner should not be allowed to shop for groceries or necessities in the places closest to him? because of their sin?
      Would Jesus say that a sinner should not have the ability to receive service from someone? Because of their sin?
      Would Jesus tell a sinner that they must be stoned by their peers, for their sins?

      So tell me, how do equal rights enable anyone to sin?
      And then, please tell me where Jesus told us to punish anyone for any sin at all.
      I keep asking, but no one seems to want to tell me. So if you can, that would be great. I’ve been searching for those scriptures since someone pointed them out…

      I pray you realize why you should support the equal rights for everyone, It is in the bible scriptures. So the only way of understanding why I said this, is to read the gospel and/or re-read it for understanding.
      Take note of two things: for one thing, how many times Jesus mentions sinners and love together in the same explanation or teachings.
      Remember to look for Jesus’ last 2 commandments, too.
      Then I guess I will hear from you when you reply. I’m looking forward to a discussion with you about it. God bless you and give you wisdom and knowledge while you are reading the gospel, In Jesus’ name I pray, Amen

      • MCrow

        I would tend to agree. One thing that consistently baffles me is the notion that Christianity in America has an obsession with using the law to push its own authority. Is this not the Good News of salvation? Why is there this need, then, to force people into compliance? Shouldn’t the lives of Christians demonstrate how much better off they are choosing, freely, to follow their faith?

        • MamaBearly

          High Five McCrow! I am not saying sin is okay in any way, and personally believe that Jesus is the authority on judgement and punishment and no one else.
          We need to teach more people about the gospel so they can be saved, not judge and demean anyone for anything. Everyone is a sinner, so if they are in “Everyone” category they need to be treated the same way,
          Ironically, All sinners are said to be treated as equal on Judgement Day, as God has no respect for persons. All sins will be given the same punishment, as eternal damnation, not the thought that the discussion that Jesus always had was to teach them and us. When he was showing us examples of sins he never, not once punished them right then. He made it clear to people that punishment happens on Judgement Day. Even with the adulteress was given a pass. It’s in the same “sin” in all ways to every other sin, it’s no different than every other sin to God. He created a Time for Judgement Day to be able to Justify people who behaved the way he wanted them to, and with Love in their hearts.

          Love covers a multitude of sins, but if you have sins without repentance, you will need to run out of sins before you run out of love, I guess. 😀 Ok that part isn’t in the bible. lol! It’s not in scriptures at all. I just kind of took a shine to it. LOL
          Blessings!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “I am not saying sin is okay in any way, and personally believe that Jesus is the authority on judgement and punishment and no one else. ”

            Again … Romans 13 …………. and you might try 1 Corinthians 5&6 ………

        • 313Kriss

          When one group forces their view on others when there are others who would serve them, explain how a Christian baker could freely follow their faith ?
          I have been around for many decades and in the course of that time have seen the morals and ethics of society denigrate to “if you want it, get it” and “if it feels good, do it”. The Good News of Salvation is really good news that God would provide a way for all who sin and face eternal damnation
          through the perfect sacrifice of His own Son because this is how much He loves us……………….when we can’t even love each other and our selves in a similar manner. Today, compassion is being molded into a forced version of acceptance of all things.

          • MCrow

            Short answer: Christians should bake the stupid cake. That or accept the penalties imposed by the state. Muslims get fired for refusing to touch wine and help with pork, and if a person can’t execute their job, they shouldn’t work. If your religion is going to interfere with your work, find other work.

            Tell me, in your decades, have you also seen women gain the right to vote? The right to vote solidified for African Americans? Anti-discrimination laws? I refuse to accept that America has spiraled into moral degeneracy for trying to do the right thing.

            And again, no religion gets to impose their morality as law in the country. If your religion is so amazing as you claim, you should be able to convince people to follow your morality without threat of fines or jail. As a country, our laws are to treat all people, regardless of race, sex, or creed, equally. That is what, as a society, we have deemed just.

          • 313Kriss

            As a Christian, I know that I am not supposed to judge others because that falls within the authority of God.

            That which is missing in our society is acceptance of the ‘other’. For example, a gay couple goes to a known baker who is a Christian and orders a wedding cake. Now, they know that there are other bakers in their area who would bake them a cake but why do they single out the Christian ? Would they go into a Muslim or Orthodox Jewish store and order pork ?
            True morality comes from God who handed Moses 2 tablets that we know as the Ten Commandments. Many have been written into our laws: do not murder, steal, bear false witness (lie or slander).

            Surely, you must watch news on TV and notice the false witness against the President. Again, consider the murder rates of young people in our inner cities. Along with the murders, there are many acts of theft …incurred to support a drug habit.

            In my youth, I noticed marches after the death of Dr. Martin Luther King and destruction of property and fires. Today, I have seen protest marches with destruction of property, theft from stores, fires. On TV, in the movies, in some rap music, I have noticed that what used to be considered vulgar is not the norm.

            Yes, our laws should be obeyed by all and when not, they should be treated equally under them. Please explain why a navy sailor is serving time in a naval jail for taking one picture inside of his ship (but not distributing it to anyone) and Hillary Clinton sent top secret documents to her private unsecured email server in her home without recourse under the law. Why do the elites of this nation skate the law and get away with it ? Our laws may be just but the application of those laws are slanted away from some, are they not ?

            Lets discuss language that was accepted as vulgar and coarse years ago, is now considered the thing to do. Look at our elections. How many folks who have homes in more than one state, vote more than once ? How many non citizens have been voting ? Why is cheating for ‘your cause’ deemed to be acceptable. The Constitution gives our citizens freedoms: to speak, to assemble, to vote, to practice their religion. Our lack of morality, turns these freedoms into something else when speech is used to harm others, when assemblies are for the purpose of harming someone else’s property, when someone is prevented from practicing their religion. I am old enough to know that ‘respect’ is missing. People of faith are ridiculed because of their faith.

          • Michael C

            …a gay couple goes to a known baker who is a Christian and orders a wedding cake… Would they go into a Muslim or Orthodox Jewish store and order pork ?

            In one example, you have a customer entering an open-to-the-public business and requesting a product that the business willingly offers to the general public.

            In the other example, the customer enters a business and asks for a product that the business owner does not sell to anyone.

            One customer orders something off the menu and the other customer orders something not on the menu.

            Can you see the flaw in your logic, here?

          • 313Kriss

            Michael, I can…………….to a point. Christians do not support any marriage outside of the traditional/biblical man and woman model.
            Many feel that the homosexual couple already knew that………but……..wanted to make their point …… and proceed to court.

          • Michael C

            Many feel that the homosexual couple already knew that

            We have businesses who have chosen to illegally discriminate against long-time repeat customers. The businesses weren’t “targeted” because of their religion. These are repeat customers.

            …but it’s irrelevant.

            In some parts of the US (a minority of the US, actually), businesses aren’t allowed to refuse their regularly offered products and services on the basis of a customer’s sexual orientation. Not sometimes. Not with just certain products or services. Not at all.

            Your claim that Christians are being targeted is not only irrelevant, it’s also largely, if not wholly untrue. Nobody is allowed to break the law no matter what religious beliefs they may hold. Muslims can’t break the law. Jews can’t break the law. Hindus can’t break the law. It doesn’t matter.

            …but it sure does seem that only Christian business owners are seeking the special right to refuse service to gay people. We don’t see Muslims or Jews or Hindus fighting for the ability to refuse service to gay customers.

            I wonder why that is.

          • 313Kriss

            The “We” says it all Michael.

            Christians are only seeking the freedom to practice their religion which is guaranteed by the US Constitution.

            I am sure other religions have some concerns about the gay agenda as well,

          • Michael C

            The “We” says it all Michael.

            The “we” refers to all of us in the United States.

            In the US, we (Americans) have witnessed a few businesses that have decided to discriminate against their own long-time repeat gay customers.

            What did you think the word “we” referred to?

            Christians are only seeking the freedom to practice their religion…

            The Constitution does not grant businesses with the right to refuse service to customers on the basis of protected characteristics. This is why racist business owners aren’t allowed to use their religious beliefs as an excuse to refuse service to black customers.

            What about their “freedom to practice their religion which is guaranteed by the US Constitution?”

            I am sure other religions have some concerns about the gay agenda as well,

            I have no doubt that there are probably some people of varying faiths who would want to refuse service to gay customers.

            Thus far, however, I’m only aware of “Christian” business owners who are demanding the right to refuse service to gay customers on the basis of their “Christian” beliefs.

            If you’d like to share any examples of non-Christian business owners flouting fairly enacted civil rights laws, I’d say the same things about them that I’ve said about the Christians.

          • DrewTwoFish

            Are you serious? You don’t need false witness against the president to know that he utterly unfit for the position and a disgrace to it.

          • 313Kriss

            What does this article have to do with President Trump ? Please get help.

          • DrewTwoFish

            “…Surely, you must watch news on TV and notice the false witness against the President…

          • 313Kriss

            Apparently, you do watch news on TV. I find that news on TV does not resemble, in any way, that which used to be called journalism. Everyone has an opinion and a bias. That is not news.
            Additionally, ask your self, how many of the liberal news outlets actually reported on the Clinton hedge fund games while she was in the State Dept. or her illegal use of a private email server that received top secret government data. Here is a clue = absolutely none.

          • DrewTwoFish

            The sh*t that falls directly out of his mouth and his tweets is indictment enough.

          • MCrow

            Point by point:

            Are the Muslims or Jews selling pork? Then yes, I’d order a ham sandwich. The people selling cakes, I expect them to sell me a cake. It’s how the whole service thing works and, incedentally, how anti-discrimination of services work. If the gay couple specifically went in and were disparaging of the person, I would expect different discrimination suits. But in most cases, if you go into a shop, how do you know they’re going to be Christians? Do they specifically advertise themselves as such? No. So the gay couple gets a recommendation and then go in blindsided.

            I disagree that that is where morality comes from, for various reasons. You do as well, because “thou shall not bake a cake for a gay couple” ain’t there. Plus other societies reached other moralities without them.

            I teach inner city kids. Bet I know them a heck of a lot better than you do. I give them the best education I can in the hopes they will use it. Many do struggle with addiction. So do Christians who drink and smoke. I try to get them into rehab programs.

            Christians shouldn’t fear “vulgar.” Christ didn’t. He spent time among the vulgar. Vulgar means “common.” A Christian should avail themselves to the common folk. Setting yourself above it isn’t Christianity, it’s classism. So I talk to pan handlers, cursing sailors, and gangster rappers. Most are interesting people.

            I’ve made no secret that I believe those in power, plutocrats and politicians, should be held to task. I don’t believe in exceptions, not based on faith, not masked on power. Anarchists are fair that way. So yes, I agree that our laws aren’t fairly applied, but I think you fix what is broken, and you don’t do that by letting more people break them.

            See above for vulgar language. I honestly see it as values of old aristocracy more than a Christian value. Not taking the Lord’s name in vain is a serious matter, but that was the notion of the Divine Name, or Tetragrammaton. I doubt god cares much how I refer to fecal matter. I think if I connect to the vulgar, these “least of these,” I’m doing something right.

            Where did I say cheating was acceptable? Where did I even declare a side? Politically, I’m an anarchist. I don’t have a side. I think sides are dumb. You, however seem willing to forgive lies Trump says but not those said of him

            “Blessed are you when you are mocked and ridiculed in my name.” I think someone important to Christianity said that…J something. Anyway, to point, I’m sorry you think you’re losing your rights. I don’t. You’re perfectly free to worship as you deem fit. You can say, freely, that that gay couple is living in sin and undeserving of being married. You can vote. Trump is in office. Voter suppression might be something you look into if that right is important to you.

            If I might, respect must come from both sides. I will respect a person if they show respect in kind. However, what is lacking in the Church is conviction. You fail to evangelize, and so the response is to use the law for force morality onto others. This is not an elimination of sin, merely punishing people for it. Real conviction would see Christians converting people.

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        “So you think people who should given the authority to punish sinners here on earth? I’m sorry I guess I missed that scripture; could you please show it to me? ”

        Romans 13 ……………

        • MamaBearly

          I hope this helps your understanding. I will reply to the other post about the chapters in 1 Corinthians if you like, but it’s a big post, and I think you are one person that does not like long posts. You see, I had to speak to each scripture in Romans 13 as you did not specify any.
          So this post goes through all the scriptures in that chapter.
          Here is the way I understand this scripture. Please show me where I am wrong for any of them. I may have not clarified it for you to understand so I will attempt to help you understand by presenting it in different wording.

          Romans 13

          1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no
          power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
          2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

          This is what God has said all the long. Those who do not choose
          to follow God will receive damnation. Nothing new here

          3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the
          same:
          4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
          5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
          6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending
          continually upon this very thing.
          7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

          This is about someone like, an Emperor of Rome, or even Trump for examples, who rule a country. This is shown by vs. 7 when they teach about giving dues which is the same lesson taught in Matthew 22.

          Rulers at the time, to be rulers chosen by God, but when Satan was permitted to change that, rulers became chosen by people, and the ruler might not even believe in God. I think that indicates that God is not involved in choosing our rulers at this point. But I do believe that once the end time comes, that our Lord Jesus will be the only ruler.

          8 Owe no man any thing, but to LOVE ONE ANOTHER: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

          Amos, this is one of the scriptures I felt you should read again to understand that we must love one another. Not just brethren, everyone. You don’t seem to realize this is important to Jesus.

          9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

          These things mentioned are about what sins there are, not that the ones specified are any worse than any other sin. It is about the sin that wasn’t common in those days, but now they are more common because there are more people, and more that have not chosen to follow the Lord. Any sins are to be punished while we are on the earth, are those that are also against the law.
          Basically, Amos, God did not want sinners to be punished two times. Once on
          Earth and once on Judgement Day. That is what Judgement Day is about… the Lord’s Judgment on what people did in their lives. He is the only one who can convict anyone of sin. Remember, He knows our heart, and it will tell him what evil has been in our thoughts, and whether there has been love enough to “forgive a multitude of sins.

          The Lord taught the Multitudes in ways that actually fit into their lives so they could understand what he was telling them: what sins there are to avoid the temptations to commit.
          He was not making any sins “bigger” than another except by saying that we are to follow the law of the land. ‘Sins’ that are against the law are to be punished by the law, not by anyone who is not authorized to punish people who go against those laws.
          Any sin that is not repented will be punished on Judgement Day.

          Jesus also said that any other commandment, (that was not mentioned) they will be covered by the commandment to Love thy neighbour as thyself. Please note that the sin of homosexuality is not there, so it is covered by the command to love each other as thyself. It isn’t even as bad as Adultery, which is still in the list, even though Man has decided they know better than God and have given Adultery an “out of jail free” card and no longer have it as against the law of the land.

          Adultery today is not something people can walk into very often, and certainly not as a group like the Hebrews with the Adulteress. How can the people who are “allowed” to punish the Adulterers, when it is not a visible crime, and unless it is complained about publicly, going to punish them. And besides that, stoning is consider to be barbaric to most of the people here in the Americas, even Christians are not likely to want to stone anyone. What is their punishment here on earth, instead of stoning?

          But Jesus is the one that left homosexuals out of the list, and put it with the commandment. That fact alone, should tell you to treat everyone with the same love. As sinners are “our enemies” the Love thy enemies command should be enough to say to Love EVERYONE’ including sinners.

          10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of
          the law.

          Again, he is saying that love will mean you will not sin against the one who you love, and therefore, loving your neighbour (everyone) is the fulfilling of the law that tells us not to sin.

          11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of
          sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
          12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of
          darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. -[ that beam of light I speak of]
          13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in
          chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.

          This is a reminder actually, not anything to do with everyone’s salvation but about each of our Salvations, individually.

          A reminder that we are all going to have this life, and when we die we cannot do anything more about our Salvation: what we should have done, or not done, in this life. So we need to pay attention to our salvation at all times, because we do not know when we will have this life end. We must be prepared to stand before the Lord and hear “Well done, faithful servant” because our sins have been forgiven here, before our death.

          14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

          This is also a scripture I have mentioned before. PUT YE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST –
          this means that we must BE like Jesus so we will walk in the Spirit, and not in
          the flesh.

          So this is why I do not agree that Jesus gave his Saints the right to punish on Earth. Only the Saints that have the authority by the law of the land, would be able to punish anyone, and that punishment does not necessarily have to even involve Christians.

          Anything else – on the list he mentioned in Romans 13 – that is considered a sin that was not specified on the list, is about loving each other and forgiveness of sin, and treating each other the way we want to be treated.

          Neither homosexuality nor fornication was in that list, and so they are covered by the commandment to love each other, as Jesus taught the Apostles and Disciples, and his Saints.

          We must forgive others for their sins, or our Father will not forgive us. I’m sorry, but that is for everyone of us, also for what you believe are the “Elect”. You are welcome to not forgive a homosexual his sin, but God will not forgive you for that. I guess that kind of supersedes the ‘Elect’ being guaranteed Salvation.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Romans 13 …. is part of one scripture …….. the whole scripture ….. is Romans …. what i gave you was scripture in context ……… i really did not need a reply ….. there is nothing to reply to …. it is scripture …. and men are given authority over men ……… and it is Godly authority to judge them ……….

          • MamaBearly

            I recommend that you read to the bottom or you might miss something that you weren’t aware of before, or something else you would like to discuss.

            Do you understand what authority it is that God gave them to use?

            I’ll give you a clue, it was not about punishing for a sin. It was to judge whether they will not follow Jesus, and goes on to tell us to not hang around with them (so that we will not begin doing the same sins they do. )
            As a matter of a fact, the end of Chapter 5 tells us that God will judge the ones who are without him, and for us to contain our judging to the brethren who commit these sins.

            He did not say anything about Shaming people in public. He did not say that people should Yell about their sin. No it tells us to judge whether they will continue resisting Jesus and therefore to leave them alone in their sin.

            There is no punishment spelled out by Jesus for us to do to any sinner. NONE.

            When Jesus dealt with the Hebrews who wanted to stone the adulteress, he simply helped them to recognize that because we are sinners, we can not punish other people for their sins.

            Jesus wants us to love each other, and that would not include being in any way towards others than in a loving manner. Love is not being abusive when you deal with another person’s sin, no matter what the sin is. Making them ashamed in public is not what Jesus did when he spoke to sinners. He spoke to them and helped them to understand about repentance. He did not make a big scene with a sinner involved, he taught us to love each other. We can’t behave badly towards anyone at all.

            If you are using hate to express your love, it is not love, and it is a part of darkness, because the hate will not let the light of a Christian to shine. Your love must be honest enough to not include any evil (hate) at all.

            There is something that I would like you to recognize.

            God is sovereign. There is NO ONE superior to God.

            Anything that Satan does, is with God’s permission. God is the Devil’s Boss!!
            So I believe God is the Ultimate Judge about sin also. He does not delegate his responsibilities to anyone except Jesus. He would not want people to punish anyone because we are all sinners and we would have to have No sins to be given the authority, or the right, to punish anyone. The Hebrews realized that and left because they could not lie and say they had no sins. The Hebrews wanted to condemn her, but Jesus said that he does not condemn her either, then told her to sin no more and basically that’s it! Yes he had the authority to do anything that God could do as it was given to Jesus from God, but he did not use his power to punish.

            He told us in the Adulteress’ story that no one that sins, can condemn another person for their sin. That is very easy to understand if you read the story.

            You see, Jesus wanted sin to be of less importance and Love to be of top importance. We do not want to hurt those we love, so we will not sin against them.

            By loving everyone, we will not want to hurt anyone, and therefore we will not sin against them, and sin > if everyone followed that simple commandment, > sin would stop even being something we did – because of the love for each other.

            There would be peace in the world.

            But people choose not to follow Jesus and sin is rampant in their lives, which can overflow to other lives, including ours. So why did God allow people to choose to not follow him, rather than it be just what they had to do because of the way he created them. Because the love is important. The desire to love our creator and worship him for what he did when he created us. To praise him for providing for us. To thank him for all the things in each of our lives that he does as blessings to those who love him.

            He wanted to let us choose to follow him, by giving us free will, and I guess it shows him who is missing the Love part inside themselves. If we don’t love everyone, it will be asked about on Judgement Day NO MATTER WHO YOU THINK YOU ARE TO GOD.

            God only favours the people he calls his children, because they choose to live the way God wants us to. He still loves the other people who have not chosen to follow him, and he believes that everyone can come to repentance and Salvation. He said that repeatedly when he spoke during his time of Ministering here on earth.

            So no he does not want others on earth to judge others, he has made it obvious in scriptures.

            So no matter how you interpret a scripture, if it is missing Jesus’ love in any way, it is not a true interpretation.

            God Is Love, and Jesus is as his Father was. Love for God/Jesus is our greatest Gift to God, because it is a choice that we make. He will not force anyone to follow him, but he does not say to do any punishment for them either. Actually he said in scripture to leave them to their damnation. Not to send someone to talk to them or give them other punishment for leaving.

            I will discuss the 1Corinthians chapters with less scripture referred to, in another post.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nothing was missed …. government of men have been given all authority to punish men for evil including all the things listed ….. we can be punished in this life and the next life ….. and God created it to be so in that fashion ……….

          • MamaBearly

            So now you admit you cannot punish the homosexuals because it is not illegal to be a homosexual?
            And you admit that the only ones that can punish, don’t even have to be Christian, but just be working for the Penal Department.
            So as I asked in my other reply.

            I was asking what authority do YOU have to punish anyone else for their sins?
            I will even give you the sin for you to punish others for?
            Now tell me what you would do to a homosexual that you saw at a stand for Equal rights event that you went to, to try to get them all to repent.
            What kind of punishment are you allowed to mete out to the homosexuals according to the way you say that ‘we’ are allowed to punish?

            If we are going to continue this discussion I have to know what kind of punishment you are talking about. And maybe I should ask you who ‘we’ are who can give the punishment for it. So what do you do to punish, and who gives the punishment, for the people who are gay?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            it is still illegal to be a homosexual ….. mans law does not alter Gods law …. and it is still a sin and morally wrong ….. sin is a violation of Gods law ….. and they need Christ to grant them repentance for it …… and it is still illegal in many countries that have not fallen from the path of the truth ………..

          • MamaBearly

            Amos, what god said to us about sins that are not illegal in the law of the land, such as Adultery, is that the only reason to get involved with a sinner of any sort is to tell them of their sin and of salvation and repentance. People who are not believers will not understand what “confront your sins” means necessarily, or what you have to do with their sins. (nothing) Jesus told us to make sure they know everything about Salvation by repentance, so they can choose to follow him and therefore desire to repent for their sins.
            God doesn’t want us to do anything more than TELL people the gospel – whether you know their sin or not – and help them understand the hope of salvation by repentance, and that is the end of our duty unless/until they choose to follow Jesus and repent on their own volition.
            I honestly wish you would realize something. God is omnipotent, but he has given us the free will to accept or reject his offer of Salvation. He will not make anyone come to him and choose him. He has told us he wants us to choose for ourselves. Anyone who is a believer has chosen to believe. Anyone who has repented in hopes of Salvation, has chosen to do it on their own. God does not force anyone, and as he wants it to be done with our free will, why would he even want to influence what we do with our free will as far as choosing him, when he gave us free will just so we can make that specific choice? We make other choices with our free will, but Jesus is the foundation of those who follow Him. People can choose not to, or stop believing, and come back years later to recommit themselves to Jesus. He will always take them into his arms. He won’t reject anyone who is sincere and changes their mind and honestly want to follow him. He wants all of us to come to repentance.
            Leave the homosexuals and their own choices to God. Trust him to do the righteous and just thing on Judgment Day. Don’t decide you know what you can’t. Only God can read our minds and intentions. Let God dole out the punishment as He sees fit, because it is ultimately his decision and it is based on what he wants it to be based on; one thing is that there are sins that can be forgiven because of the amount of Love we have had, and people can be justified for the love and the good works they did as a way to give the good works more importance to God than sin. God is more concerned with our love for others, and our good works (without expectation of return) and the way we behave towards each other than he is in our sin. Sin is important to him, but not as much as the way he wants us to love. Every time he mentioned sin, he also talked about the love of the sinner and how love is able to excuse (cover) the sins that he feels they cover. We can’t know what he bases his judgements on; Jesus does not answer to us about those things.
            So how are you treating homosexuals around you. Do you trouble them every time you see them about their sin, even if it is the same person every time?
            Amos, I just want you to treat people – ALL people – with love, like Jesus told us to.
            I don’t want to see you being mean when you criticize someone for their sin.
            I don’t do that with you when I try to get you to understand the gospel. I tell you where you are seeing things differently and why I see them the way I do. I don’t call you names, I am not rude, I am encouraging you to be sure that the view you have is the Truth, whether you think it is or not, you need to confront the possibility that you need to change how you view the gospel. You need to assure yourself with scriptures that I am wrong. That what I say is not in the scriptures in the way I explain it.
            I do not call you (or anyone else) stupid like names because of their belief. All I do is encourage people to read the Gospel and consider how Jesus spoke of love every time he spoke of sin. And that the second commandment might be taken by some to mean that if they love each other as themselves, don’t need to repent for salvation.
            Blessings. And I am aware that you probably did not read this whole post, but thank you for giving me a place to help others learn about how I view Jesus. That’s really nice of you.
            God Bless!!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            they will not know salvation and repentance if they DO NOT KNOW what the sin is ….. that is like telling them they are under arrest and NOT tell them what the charge is ….

            “so they can choose to follow him and therefore desire to repent for their sins”

            they do not choose …. sorry …. that is not scriptural ….. they have no choice in their first birth and it is NO DIFFERENT when they are born again ….. that is GODS sovereign decree for all of us ….

            “I do not call you (or anyone else) stupid like names because of their belief”

            WHOM have i CALLED ANY NAME ……… WHOM …..

            “Amos, I just want you to treat people – ALL people – with love, like Jesus told us to”

            telling them the truth IS LOVING THEM …. accepting their lies IS NOT ………. you seem really confused ….

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Do you trouble them every time you see them about their sin, even if it is the same person every time?”

            yeah … i do not even know what that means ….. they are troubled even if i never see them ….

            BTW …. in your mind …. what is REPENTANCE ………….

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Anyone who has repented in hopes of Salvation, has chosen to do it on their own. God does not force anyone, and as he wants it to be done with our free will, why would he even want to influence what we do with our free will as far as choosing him, when he gave us free will just so we can make that specific choice”

            NOT SCRIPTURAL …………… the sheep do not select their shepherd …. we do not select our parents …. and NO MAN seeks after God ……… sorry …. you are really confused …….

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “And you admit that the only ones that can punish, don’t even have to be Christian, but just be working for the Penal Department. ”

            and they are still appointed by God ………… they bear not the sword in vain ………..

          • MamaBearly

            So God thinks it’s ok when the Prison Guards beat the crap out of men that are gay? Sorry, no, God would see that as Hate and it is part of the darkness of evil. That person is NOT appointed by God. As for the Judges and all the others involved in the legalities, I’m sorry I don’t think every one is appointed by God. God may influence some things in the court processes, but the Judges that legalize what our God feels are sins, are not appointed by God.

            Blessings!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “So God thinks it’s ok when the Prison Guards beat the crap out of men that are gay? ”

            well that is not what i said ……. but the perscribed method was stoning …

            “Leviticus 20:13King James Version (KJV)
            13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”

            so apparently He is, in the context of justice …. and His eternal penalty is not much different for teh UNREPENTANT homosexual …..

            “As for the Judges and all the others involved in the legalities, I’m sorry I don’t think every one is appointed by God.”

            then you are at variance with scripture …… Romans 13 to be EXACT ….. “13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.” and further … “for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.” ……… nothing happens without God …

            13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
            13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
            13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

          • MamaBearly

            Quoting the O.T. is not an effective argument. Jesus changed a lot of things including the removal of death as a punishment for sin. He also removed it from the list of – what did you call them – death sins?
            No I am not disregarding anything. God would not put power into a non-believers hands. He can control them if he wants to, but he has said that he will not use his power like that. Not with Un-believers. If he were going to do that, he would make them believe first, not just follow his commandments without knowledge of why they are doing it.
            The bible is set up to teach believers, not un-believers. Unbelievers will not be subject to the higher powers; they don’t believe in the power of God.
            God doesn’t include non-believers when he is saying anything but rather he teaches us (believers) about what we should not do, and what we should do. He does not say Hey I know you don’t believe in me, but I want you to do this instead of what you are doing and I’m going to make you if you don’t do it by choice.”
            I respect the laws of my land, but it doesn’t mean I will be any different than I am with other people. unlike you, I treat everyone with love and the way I want to be treated, because they are people to me, not sinners.
            So what about adultery. Do you punish those people the same way as homosexuals since it isn’t illegal any more than gays are.
            How exactly do homosexuals even affect your life in any way? You must have to go out of your way to browbeat them into listening to you. So how do you know who is an adulterer so you can tell them to look to their sin. Do you look up divorces and see whether infidelity is the reason?
            Again, nothing in your post shows a speck of love, and Jesus commanded us to love everyone. Love should be in everything we do, if we are following Jesus.
            Please read the gospel and find the love that is an agape love that Jesus loved everyone with. That he wants us to love everyone like he does.
            Jesus was not cruel to sinners because they could turn to him at a later time.
            Besides my support for “gays” is not about the sin. It’s about being able to live in the way they should already be living.
            So there is really nothing that I am doing that is against God’s Word, and not only that, but I am supporting only what they deserve to have – equal rights.
            Blessings

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            quoting GODS WORD is always an effective argument if a person is a Christian ….. the OT God and the NT God are the SAME GOD …………. the plan of salvation has not changed one iota …. we are saved by grace through faith …. every person ever saved OT and NT was saved in this manner …………. ALL SINS ARE DEATH ….. they are a violation of Gods law and the wages of sin IS DEATH … Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. …. nothing has changed ………

            God put power in all kinds of non-believers hands ….. you cant seriously believe what you just said …. EVERY leader of a pagan country was put there by Gods divine intervention ….

          • Bob Johnson

            “Quoting the O.T. is not an effective argument. Jesus changed a lot of things including the removal of death as a punishment for sin.”

            Yet in the New Testament we learn,
            Matthew Chapter 5 Jesus said,
            “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
            For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
            Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

            (Luke 16:17)
            And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

            (John7:19)
            “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law?”

            So it would certainly appear like Jesus wanted us to keep all of the old laws.

            You then say,”He also removed it from the list of – what did you call them – death sins?”

            But while Jesus removed the death penalty do you really believe he no longer considered Blasphemy or False Prophecy crimes?

            Then you say, “God doesn’t include non-believers when he is saying anything but rather he teaches us (believers) about what we should not do, and what we should do.”

            And of the many examples to the contrary, I will provide one from Exodus Chapter 7,
            “And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.“

            Yes, this is from the Old Testament, but it is not about the law rather about God, The Father. Is He not the same God in both Testaments?

          • MamaBearly

            So it would certainly appear like Jesus wanted us to keep
            all of the old laws.

            Not US he was speaking to the Hebrews. Acts 15 explains that the Gentiles are not expected to follow the laws. They were to give them the sins to repent of, not make them learn and do the laws the Hebrews have lived with all their lives.

            You then say,”He also removed it from the list of – what did you call them – death sins?” But while Jesus removed the death penalty do you really believe he no longer considered Blasphemy or False Prophecy crimes?</blockquote

            I believe I was referring specifically to Adultery and Homosexuality, because one is on the list of sins Jesus discussed, and the other is not on the list prominently, as Adultery is.

            No I do not think I know how God thinks or what he is planning on doing ever, unless it
            is in His Word.

            I do believe he will keep the death without anything else – no eternal hell – no eternal life – for the things that he has already told us about like those. As those people will be removed from the Book of Life, and it will be as if the person never existed.

            But, there is always a chance that people will change their minds, or find out about
            salvation and will honestly regret ever speaking in the way that would call for death.

            Until we die, we are able to repent and be saved, with forgiveness of every sin. Does that sound like he would do anything to any sinner before their death?

            Then you say, “God doesn't include non-believers when he is saying anything but rather he teaches us (believers) about what we should not do, and what we should do.”

            That is what the bible is for, to teach believers and as non-believers will not know the bible that well (supposedly) because of their disbelief. It is essential that we need to believe to have an understanding of the scriptures. When a non-believer begins to follow Jesus, they will learn what believers are all about. Jesus mentioned things that a non-believer would sin, but he never really told the non-believer anything, but used them as examples of how he does not want us – believers – to be like.

            And of the many examples to the contrary, I will provide one from Exodus Chapter 7,
            “And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.“

            Well, really when you think about it, if the Egyptians that were left did not believe in God and his power after their army and their ruler were killed in a “freak accident”, (on top of the other miracles shown to them) and the Jews got away unscathed, it would be pretty sad. I believe they did know that He is the Lord after that, so “His Word did
            not return void”.

            He did not put it in the bible that the Egyptians were really told much about the
            Power of Our Lord, before God remembered the Jews and was bringing them out of
            Egypt.
            The lessons and miracles he showed the Egyptians were as much for them, as for us
            who read the bible.
            It was about trusting in God to do what he said he will do.
            It was about the people, again of the old testament, not doing what God asked them to do.

            It was as much what they did, as what the Lord wanted to teach us about not trusting
            him completely. And that he did it because of his promise so he could show them his faithfulness towards them by taking them out of Egypt.

            A lot of the gospel scriptures have more than one understanding that God will open
            for believers, (or to convince an unbeliever I expect) so they can be tools in the lives of his people, all through the millennium. The bible is to help us as we go through the different ages of time; (eg. Medieval times) not just one period of time.

            Yes, this is from the Old Testament, but it is not about the law rather about God, The Father. Is He not the same God in both Testaments?

            Yes, I understand what you are getting at in this statement. A good friend of mine
            once said:

            “SAME GOD” – old and new- yep. But Jesus was added to the
            team for anger management. All interactions go through Jesus.

            God does not change, but Jesus was not just God, he was also part human from his biological mother. That difference tempered the wrath, and showed us the love and compassionate side of God.

            His human side was what he showed while he was here in behaviour, and only when he did miracles did he show his power while here. Otherwise every lesson in the gospel is what we, as humans, need to do to obtain the salvation offered with the repentance of sin.

            It’s all there, but it isn’t easy to find all the things that Jesus wanted us to see, without understanding from God.

            God bless you!

          • Bob Johnson

            Exodus Chapter 7,
            “And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.“

            Well, really when you think about it, if the Egyptians that were left did not believe in God and his power after their army and their ruler were killed

            Actually God said this before He hardened Pharaoh’s heart and before the plagues. God never killed Pharroh; God slew the children.

          • MamaBearly

            I was talking about what the Lord said in that scripture. When he brought the children of Israel out of Egypt. Pharaoh did die in the Red Sea and that is what I was referring to.
            Blessings!

          • Bob Johnson

            Not US he was speaking to the Hebrews.

            Jesus only spoke to Hebrews and Romans. All the Disciples were Jewish. This interpretation of scripture is not universality agreed upon. Just the other night I was reading a lengthy rebuttal to this view by the Reverend John Henry Hopkins, Bishop of Vermont. And since the Ten Commandments are found in the Old Testament, much has been written both fore and against both Moral Law and Kosher Law. The Old Testimate makes no clear distinction between the two.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ummmm … Bob ….. a little out of context ….. but good one ………

          • MamaBearly

            Amos, about equal rights for sinners
            Would Jesus agree that a person should not be allowed to live somewhere because of their sin?
            Would he agree that they should not have electricity or heat in the place they find to live, because of their sin?
            Would he agree that people should be refused served by restaurants or people who do plumbing or house repairs, because of their sin?
            Would Jesus think he has influence with the people he has condemned to do, for their sin, so they will not desire to marry, for the sin.
            The above is about Jesus and what he would refuse for a person’s sin.

            Do you see what I mean about Equal rights. It isn’t just about the right to marry. It’s about the right to have the same things available that we have, and that they should have already without fighting for it. Like the things I asked WWJD – people deny people the right to have a place to live because of their sins. How is someone else’s sin someone else’s business in the first place and how does it mean that they do not have the right to housing? Is it my business to know what your sins are so I can tell you to confront your sins?

            Why is it ok for you to decide who is to be punished at all when Jesus told us not to judge others because we don’t have the knowledge that Jesus does.

            It is no one’s right to do more than tell everyone about the consequences of sin, and about Jesus’ offer of Salvation. The need to be told about Salvation, because without that knowledge why would anyone want to repent?

            Amos you are also forgetting this:
            Matthew 6: 14-15
            14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
            15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

            You have no forgiveness in your behaviour or the way you even talk about sinners.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Would Jesus agree that a person should not be allowed to live somewhere because of their sin?”

            yes …. they do not get to go to live in heaven if they are unrepentant …. so AGAIN …. what is REPENTANCE …. and who grants it ……..

          • MamaBearly

            No HE would not want anyone to not be allowed live somewhere, and you know darn well that I meant here on earth, not after death.
            Answer those WWJD questions and remember this is about a sinner on earth.
            YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEIR SIN IS.
            So what do you think Jesus would do in those situations with a random sinner. No sin, in particular.
            When I see that, I will explain my view of what repentance is…

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ummm …. because of PRIDE ….. they PROCLAIM their sins …. i do not even have to guess ……. so YES I DO ……….. in their zeal to prove how right they are without God and how wrong we are ….. THAT IS WHAT THEY DO …………

            God makes the rain fall on the just and the unjust ….. but He also said not to be unequally yoked to non-believers ……… now …. there is no law or commandment to NOT do business with anyone ………… but there is no requirement to do business with anyone in particular EITHER …….. it is within our christian witness and our christian FREEDOM to decide ………

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “I was asking what authority do YOU have to punish anyone else for their sins?”

            the authority to VOTE and change laws ………. as do all of us ………..

            “Now tell me what you would do to a homosexual that you saw at a stand for Equal rights event that you went to, to try to get them all to repent. ”

            i have no power to get them to repent ….. repentance is a gift from God that i have no control over ………. i have a duty to tell them the truth to confront their sins …… it is up to Christ if they will be granted repentance ….. has nothing to do with me ……. so not sure what your question is about …… men can, have and will use numerous means to get them to a place of change …. look at islam ….. they want to give them flying lessons ……..

          • MamaBearly

            Amos, you are changing the way you are posting about things. Which is what draws me into the conversation.

            So when you make disparaging remarks to a poster that is gay, (and you have) not really telling them to confront their sins, but just being disgusted by them and making it VERY obvious that there is more than the hate of the sin.

            When you do that in that way, you think you are telling them to confront their sins?
            How is telling someone that THEY are disgusting, when it is the sin you should be pointing to, encouraging in any way to confront their sin?

            God bless!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            again … WHAT disparaging remark …. that they are homosexual ……….. and they are NOT “gay” …. they are HOMOSEXUAL …………..

          • MamaBearly

            I started off discussing with you the way you treated homosexuals in the first place.
            You have said terrible things to some of the posters before.
            If you want to know what you said, go through your own posts and find out. I can’t and honestly am not interested to find those posts.
            They are “gay” because that is the term used for them. Or you could use LGBTQs. Or better yet, how about calling them PEOPLE.

            The only reason you object to gay is because you don’t think it is able to shame them. It’s a bigger word, but it won’t shame them any.

            Next time I see you being rude to “a homosexual” I’ll point it out to you, so you can repent for it.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “You have said terrible things to some of the posters before.
            If you want to know what you said, go through your own posts and find out. I can’t and honestly am not interested to find those posts. ”

            i remember EXACTLY what i have said and it does not come out as me calling ANYONE a name …. they are what they are ….. homosexual or liar or whatever ….. Christ NEVER shrunk from labeling those who opposed God as what they were …….. the bible NAMES NAMES of every kind of sinner ….. EVERY PERSON in Christs own family was a SINNER and the bible makes no bones about saying what those sins were and WHO committed them …. NOT ONE …………..

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            BTW …. ALL my posts are wide open ………. feel free to search them at will …. the have always been wide open and they will remain wide open ….. i have no fear about what i have said ….. to anyone on any topic …

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “I do not believe that any man can preach the gospel who does not preach the Law. The Law is the needle, and you cannot draw the silken thread of the gospel through a man’s heart unless you first send the needle of the Law to make way for it. If men do not understand the Law, they will not feel they are sinners. And if they are not consciously sinners, they will never value the sin offering. There is no healing a man till the Law has wounded him, no making him alive till the Law has slain him”. – Charles Spurgeon

            “We are certainly under the same obligation as they were; for there cannot be a doubt that the claim of absolute perfection which God made for His Law is perpetually in force”. – John Calvin

            “The first duty of the gospel preacher is to declare God’s Law and show the nature of sin. Why? Because it will act as a schoolmaster and bring him to everlasting life which is in Jesus Christ”. – Martin Luther

          • MamaBearly

            Peter told us the law is only for the Hebrews not for the Gentiles. Acts 15
            What he said is that they would tell the Gentiles about the sins to avoid, and not trouble them with the Law that the Hebrews need to follow.

            Why are you giving me opinions from other men? The Word of God is all we need, not others opinions, and we even need to check our teachers out for accuracy by searching the scriptures. I realize that these are well respected men that were Christians, but these are still opinions that I don’t need to help me understand the Word of God.

            And that is not even touching the fact that I disagree with them about the “law” with regards to Jesus and the Gospel.

            WE do not follow the Laws that was given to the Hebrews, we need only to know the sins to repent for , and about the grace that was offered.

            You need to re-read the N.T. Amos, if you did not realize that the Gentiles do not follow the laws of Moses.

            Amos, you have pointed out scripture after scripture, and now opinion after opinion, to prove your posts, but I have given you scriptures that counter what you say. I read the scriptures you give to me. But I never had the impression that you have read the gospel to find out if I am telling you the Truth. Why do you expect me to listen to your belief of what the scriptures say, when you don’t even try to understand mine.

            I was trying to treat you how I want to be treated. But if you want to be treated with disrespect, as you show to me by ignoring what I say, I can’t do that. That’s a sin. I am not even tempted by it. So go your way and I’ll go my way. I won’t post to you about what you say, unless you are too rude, and you can leave me alone, unless you are intending to respect my position and actually consider what I am saying as I do your posts. BTW respect includes reading the whole post not just the top of it.

            I pray you will see the Truth. in Jesus’ name, Amen.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            NO ….. those who are under the law (and the Hebrews were) were not saved by grace yet but the law has not changed one iota …. and Christ said so …. Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled ….. and the last time i checked ….. the heavens and the earth are STILL HERE …. now …. for the elect ….. that eternal punishment has been abated ….. but the law STILL STANDS …. it is still a violation of Gods law to sin …….. and even as a saved person …. WE ALL STILL SIN ………

          • Bob Johnson

            You said, “Why are you giving me opinions from other men? The Word of God is all we need, not others opinions, and we even need to check our teachers out for accuracy by searching the scriptures. I realize that these are well respected men that were Christians, but these are still opinions that I don’t need to help me understand the Word of God.”

            It seems to me quite arrogant to claim to be able to read and understand the Bible without help. These texts have been studied by the greatest of minds for two millennia. Many scholars both Christian and Jewish, after years of work provide nuanced reflection on scripture. And sometimes they disagree. For me to think that I can just pick up a copy and instantly have a perfect understanding of scripture seems strange.

            Spurgeon, Calvin, Luther – I would most certainly value their thoughts. I may disagree but it would not be on the basis that Bob Johnson read this passage and this is what I think. I would want to have a few heavy thinkers in my corner.

            Then you said, “And that is not even touching the fact that I disagree with them about the “law” with regards to Jesus and the Gospel.”

            Here you begin to sound like Oboehner speaking of the U S Constitution. He has claimed it is perfectly clear to any sixth grader. Yet these old people in black robes are clueless. So are you the final authority on the Bible and you take no counsel?

          • MamaBearly

            Ok Thanks Bob for your input and admonishments of how I put things, I apologize for those that I said without thinking enough about how they sound.
            First of all my comment about not needing anything but the Word of God is based in the fact that if Amos does not know the Word, then what he is telling me is the only way to look at how Jesus told us things, Giving me other opinions is not what he needs to prove to me that the Bible agrees with what we are talking about.
            I’d be surprised if C.S. Lewis did not have quotes too, about Christianity. Giving me 3 scriptures to show me would be better than 3 quotes that say the same thing in 3 ways, and obviously supports what Amos said, and I can probably find 3 quotes from a respected Christian who says the opposite of what the first 3 did.
            The internet is now the one place you are guaranteed to find something that agrees with what you want it to agree with, or agrees with what they are saying. Every issue is shown to have pros and cons about it by people who are opposed to each other’s opinions about something.
            Other opinions are fine, as long as they are supported by the bible, because the bible is the final word.
            I have mentioned before that I am trying to keep to my religion, and it is because God brought me to my church and told me that it was my home. where I belong. Why would I ever want to go beyond what God put before me?
            But I honestly do not think what Amos is saying about the law is applicable to the laws because in Acts 15 they decided to tell the Gentiles about the sins that they need to repent for, including the ones that the people of that place might not have been aware of, and leave them alone about the Laws for the Hebrews.
            Yes, Hebrews who want to be saved must keep the laws, but the Gentiles are not expected to live in the laws that the Hebrews lived with for their lifetimes, and learn them either. Hebrews are God’s chosen people, and the laws were made to be a part of their religion, their faith and trust in God. He has left the laws he had given them before as they knew and already lived with them in their lives; Gentiles had no laws like that in their lives ever.

            Reading those opinions about the law are reinforcing what Amos is saying when the Gospel says in the Scriptures that we as Gentiles have no law, we have the commandments. The knowledge that Jesus gave everyone about salvation and sin and all the things he taught in the gospel is our guide to being good Christians and the laws must have to happen in the lives of the Hebrews, when mentioned, because it is not what God said about Gentile Christians.

            I keep asking Amos to read the gospel again – he seems to be missing some of the important things that are told and explained in the Gospel and they would make a difference to what he is aware of that Jesus told ALL of us.

            I do however agree that I was not as proper as I normally try to be, and do apologize, to you as well as Amos, please forgive me?

            God Blessings upon both of you!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            man has eartly authority to punish evil …. and God has eternal authority to punish evil …. and both can be used to punish … yes … we can be punished twice …. sorry ……..

          • MamaBearly

            Not for regular sins that are not in the law of the land
            Besides, tell me how you are allowed to punish sinners like gays. How are they punished for their sins, here on earth? NOW in this time and place of U.S.A. What way do you think you can PUNISH anyone in today’s world without being punished yourselves.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            for any sin …. “Besides, tell me how you are allowed to punish sinners like gays.” …. it was illegal in every state at the founding of the US …. and they could be jailed ……….

  • Michael D Coxie

    i dont think the company did anything wrong by firing him

    • james blue

      Why?

    • Bezukhov

      Would the company be in the wrong if they took away Donald Zarda’s breathing privileges for being gay?

      • Michael D Coxie

        i run a company right now and in the state in which i live it’s an “at will” state, meaning that i can fire for what ever reason that i choose without giving a reason at all. Now Bezukhow lets stay on topic and on point here. it’s not about “breathing rights.” No one asked if he was gay. He blurted it out. me i put the customer’s comfort and safety AHEAD of the employee’s will to work. IF enough customers complain about the SAME employee over and over, that employee is gone simple as that. the customers are the ones that bring in the money. it’s a statistically proven fact. that one customer will tell 5 to 10 others about a negative experience that they had at a place of business, BEFORE they will tell you about one positive thing. so… IF TOO MANY customers complained about this guy and i would leave a negative feedback on him that would be truthful as to why i let him go.

        • Ambulance Chaser

          None of that answers the question as to why you think the company “did anything wrong” by firing him. The simple fact that you CAN do something does not automatically mean that it’s morally acceptable to do it.

          • Michael D Coxie

            would the customers have known ANYTHING at all about the employee’s sexual orientation, IF the employee had NOT said anything themselves? since the act does not cover sexual orientation at this time he does NOT have any legal recourse end of story. get over it. the company did nothing wrong in the eyes of the law as it currently stands.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Actually, as the law currently stands, gender covers sexual orientation. That’s what this brief is about.

        • TheKingOfRhye

          “i run a company right now and in the state in which i live it’s an “at
          will” state, meaning that i can fire for what ever reason that i choose
          without giving a reason at all”

          But, the Civil Rights Act still covers at-will employment. So, if it was determined you fired someone for reasons such as race or religion, you’d be looking at a possible “wrongful termination” case.

          • Michael D Coxie

            that is the thing with an “at will” state. the employer does not have to specify a reason for the termination. it’s also like i said earlier King would the customers have known ANYTHING of the employees sexual orientation, IF said employee had kept his mouth shut. we are not talking either about A. race or B. religion. as neither of those apply here. no this employee opened his own mouth. what i’m simply saying is that since the law has not changed as of YET, he may be stuck on a limb and sawed said limb out from under his own self.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            From reading the story, he was telling female customers so they, and their boyfriends or husbands, would be at ease when strapped to him. Which sounds like that went on for a while, until apparently one person complained about it….so is one complaint enough reason to fire someone, I guess is the question.

          • Michael D Coxie

            it only takes a spark to start a fire so who knows there may be a LOT more complaints than we both know about. After all we are not legal counsel involved in this particular case. i won’t be a paralegal for another 2 years yet. i will however be watching closely…

          • Michael D Coxie

            IF he kept his mouth shut no one would know.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Well, you could say that just as well about things that are covered by laws like the Civil Rights Act. For instance, religion. I mean, I don’t know the religion of anyone I work with unless they tell me or make it known in some other way.

          • Michael D Coxie

            we’re NOT talking about RELIGION so lets stick to the facts of the article. AGAIN IF he kept his mouth shut no one would know he was gay.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            I brought up religion to compare it to sexual orientation as something that, as you said, no one would know if you kept your mouth shut, not to talk about religion in particular. I know the story here isn’t about religion, but I don’t see why I can’t bring it up if I think it relates to a point I’m trying to make.

          • Michael D Coxie

            you still miss the point no reason has to be given period for termination. in my i can simply walk in and for no reason what so ever say “you’re gone” i don’t have to give ANY reason. no laws broken.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Well, yeah, you’re right in that. I know what “at-will employment” is. I was just saying, though, that you could still face consequences if it was found out that (despite you not giving a reason) you were firing people for something that is protected by anti-discrimination laws. Of course, the whole point of this story is that sexual orientation is not one of those things, at least not the federal level, so maybe that’s neither here nor there, really.

          • Michael D Coxie

            i learned a long time ago doing 14 years worth of retail and 8 years of security. the one bringing the charges has the burden of proof. for example. i had a security guard friend of mine i worked with that taught me LONG ago. 3 things 1 DOCUMENT x3 no matter what. 2 SAY NOTHING AND KNOW NOTHING ( sgt schultz hogans heroes ) 3 IF you’re accused of something SAY NOTHING DO NOTHING BY GOD MAKE THEM PROVE WHAT THEY ARE ACCUSING YOU OF or drop it. lol. that’s what this business owner NEEDS to do.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            The business owner doesn’t need to any of that in this case, since he did nothing illegal. Now if that law does change, or if it was ruled that Title VII of the Civil Rights Act DOES cover sexual orientation, then regardless of whether it’s at-will employment or not, then what he did would have been illegal, against federal law.

          • Michael D Coxie

            that is still the whole thing in a nut shell. the employer does NOT have to give a reason why they fired the worker at all, nor does the worker have to give a reason why they leave. i have a question for you? how many people quit a job W/O leaving a 2 week notice. they have the option AND they have the right. it’s the same principle an employer can walk up to an employee at their job and that job is gone. so… IF this is an “at will” state. until they make “at will” states illegal, the employee did NOTHING wrong.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Well, okay, sure…I mean, I’ve done that myself, a few years ago I left one job (which was ‘at-will employment’ though I’m not in at ‘at-will state’) on a few days’ notice because I got another one. (hey, it was $3 more an hour, after all!) I believe the only time you could get into trouble for that was if you were under a contract, as far as I know anyway.

            Really, though, all this stuff about “at-will employment” or “at-will states” is basically irrelevant to this. They’re talking about federal law. If you fired someone for a reason protected by Title VII, you could still be sued for wrongful termination, and lose, whether it’s an at-will state or not. Whether you gave a reason or not, it could be found out somehow anyway.

            Which kinda reminds me of one thing I was thinking earlier….you kept bringing up how this only happened because the guy brought up his orientation himself to customers. Yeah, that’s the case here, it seems….but what if it wasn’t? It certainly could have came out some other way, like maybe some of his co-workers knew him from outside of work and knew he was homosexual. Would you think differently about it, if that was the case, and then he got fired for it?

            I guess what I’m really trying to say is I don’t think a homosexual (or bisexual, or whatever) person should have to hide a major part of their lives and who they are for fear of some sort of repercussions.

          • Michael D Coxie

            that’s the whole point how may strangers do you walk up to and in a 20 or 30 minute ride, do you A. give them your whole life story, b. give them your sexual orientation?….. i sure as heck don’t it’s NONE of their business. when i go to work i’m there to work. what this guy did was too personal. the employee is trying to “push a political agenda.” he got fired for a poor job performance and he’s using this to cover for his mistakes trying to get the sympathy vote.

          • Dianne

            Hi Michael, I run into homosexual men in businesses that seem to need to tell me that they are gay, for whatever reason I have no idea. It’s so weird to me that I just say nothing because I came into the store to purchase a product or get a service. From now on I’m just going to respond by saying “so what, I didn’t ask you”. Maybe then some of them will know that NORMAL people DON’T advertise their sexual orientation. Besides most gay men are so obviously gay that they don’t have to say a word because their mannerisms speak for them. 😉
            Have a blessed day.

          • Michael D Coxie

            Dianne let me give you an example of what i mean. i recently had to purchase a set of tires for a new car. i usually get recaps or used vs new as they are cheaper. the tire shop i went to did not sell used tires. i however did NOT say that they discriminated against me in ANY way. i did not take the tire shop to court. i’m handicapped AND it’s obvious. the SIMPLE choice I made was to go and find another tire shop that DID sell the product that i wanted and needed. The homosexuals need to learn to do the same.

          • Dianne

            Hi Michael, well said and I concur. Blessings of joy and peace. 😇🕊

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Trying to push a political agenda? No, you don’t know that. The reason he did what he did was clearly stated in the article. Unless you somehow know more about this than was said in the article, you’re just making stuff up here. And are you saying he was NOT fired for telling people of his sexual orientation? Again, unless you know something the rest of us don’t, I have to think you’re just pulling stuff out of thin air.

          • Michael D Coxie

            not making stuff up just stating a fact. this follows the same agenda that the LGBT has done before. i’d say more than likely he was fired b/c of something else and he came up w/ this to try to federally protect himself and slander his boss. the TRUTH will come out in the end.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Saying something is “more than likely” is NOT “stating a fact.”

  • Jason Todd

    I would imagine soon enough we are going to see the usual suspects come in and scream and bellyache and moan and gnash their teeth over this because it will interfere with their wish for the rest of this country to be forced to indulge in the fantasy that is sexual orientation.

    • PatQuinn

      Is it your mission in life to give Christianity a black eye by being a hateful pig in every single thing you write? Why don’t you go picket funerals or bomb an abortion clinic, something fun for yourself like that?

      • Jason Todd

        Flagged and blocked.

    • Ambulance Chaser

      Actually, you’re not going to see the opinions of anyone who disagrees with you because you’ve blocked them all.

      • zampogna

        As long as I live, I’ll never understand the mentality of people who show up to rant like bullies and then silence their opposition.

    • MamaBearly

      Well, Jason Todd, it’s been a while since we’ve discussed anything.

      So you think that by enabling someone to have equal rights, they will sin? So the fact that you have “equal rights” is what causes you to sin?

      I’ve never seen anything like that in the scriptures. Any chance you can just give me the book it’s in. I’ll search for it from that if that’s ok, Jason.

      I expect God would group the ‘sexual orientation’ stuff all together as homosexuality. So they are simply people who have to repent, and be saved. After all when you are reborn, all your sin is washed away, and you are filled with the Holy Ghost (of repentance) and the reason I say it that way, is because at that time, the Holy Ghost will not do anything except help you to recognize your sins, and help you resist the temptation of sinning, so you can be given the Holy Ghost of wind and fire that Jesus first talked about and about specifically both of those elements. The description is very straight forward and it is supported by the scriptures in the Gospel..
      It will be a good discussion Jason, if you can resist calling me names and blocking me too, okay? We are both Christians who follow Jesus so we should be able to agree on something, right, without being judgmental. We as Christians are to love each other and listen to each other, and Jesus actually told us to get along with other churches, and since we are all supposed to be spreading the Gospel for Jesus, we should be able to discuss the scriptures and see what the other person sees in that scripture, and what context it is used,
      Up for a discussion?
      God bless!

      • 313Kriss

        I think God has already grouped all of us as “broken” and that is why He sent His one and only Son to die on the cross for our sins.

        • MamaBearly

          Ooops, Sorry. I did a ramble again. I hope you can get through it to
          understand what I was saying. I am very sorry for it’s length.

          That’s very basic, but it really is true. He knew our flesh would want to sin, and by sending Jesus, he gave us a chance to repent for our sins so when we could not avoid the temptation of sin, we could still be forgiven.
          It is true that that is about all mankind, not just some of us, and does not have exceptions.
          Unfortunately, not all choose to follow Jesus, and so if they know the plan of salvation for repentance and choose not to repent and follow Jesus, it is with the knowledge, and it is their choice to take a chance that Our Lord God and Hell’s existence is not real. We believe, but if someone doesn’t believe in Salvation in Jesus’ name, which is a free will, it is their choice, and we are supposed to leave them alone with their sins, and try not to hang around with them so we do not forget our own faith and give into our own sins we had repented for. It’s easier to ignore knowing what we do as sins, if we are surrounded by a group of non-believers. It’s natural to want to be friends with people, and some people change to follow Jesus with repentance, later on in their lives, or after they go through something that God was involved in without a doubt. The ways to begin the journey of salvation with repentance are many as different denominations, or it can happen because the Lord leads them to understand. It is still our free will to choose, no matter how much you have missed the opportunities to know God’s love, and believe in Salvation. Jesus wants every single person of the world to come to the hope of salvation by repentance.
          If he used his powers, he would have had the power in the beginning of the world and would have made us everyone believers, and he would make it so no one could sin, with his powers.
          So by allowing us to have free will, we were kind of set up to sin, I guess, because the flesh has a problem with sin, but God knew it and wanted to find a way to forgive us, so he made the laws of Moses about how to live and avoid temptations and and to sacrifice animals for their blood (really) while the meat was also considered a pleasing aroma to God. Jesus’ crucifixion took his blood and substituted that with the blood required by sacrificing animals for sin, and His death gave us the chance to be forgiven for our sins. When Jesus conquered death and returned, it was to show his people that he had so much love for all of us, that he would sacrifice himself as a part human so he could feel what it did, the cutting the spitting the whole scene, Jesus felt each thing anyone did to him as a personal punishment from the unbelievers as he was going to his death knowing that was exactly what would happen when he was being taken to be crucified, He knew all of it, and had to live through everything as a part human, as much as part spirit, actually feeling it, and still going through it for the love of us.

          He showed his human side about it by asking his Father to take the cup from him, but believed that it must be God’s will, as opposed to his own, that he had to follow.
          So many behaviours that Jesus showed us are subtle in the scriptures. He was a living example of how he wanted us to live like. Jesus asks us to be as close to himself as possible, he tells us that with repenting, we are forgiven our sins, then he offered Eternal life to those of us who choose to follow him, for the hope of Eternal Life.
          Sorry again!
          God bless!

          • 313Kriss

            Mama, thank you for your post. One concern, I believe that salvation is a free gift to all who would believe in Jesus who died for our sin. Is it necessary to repent first ? Maybe not. A brand new believer without being churched will learn about repentance from the Holy Spirit and the Bible. I know I did. We have far more sins then we even recognize to repent for. God’s Spirit reveals those as well.

          • MamaBearly

            Well put Kriss. And thank you too.
            I don’t think that the importance of repentance has to be before belief in Jesus and what he did for us. They did not listen to the people confess to sins before they gave them the second baptism of wind and fire – the Holy Spirit.
            As you say, many people come to believe before they know about the gospel. I did. How can you not when you hear the story of why he died on the cross. No one would do that normally, choose to die and know How to die., as well as when? It must have been the hardest thing to do ever. And I always tell God how awful it was that it was necessary to do that to your own child as a sacrifice for him essentially. God needed to fix what was happening because of his anger, and Jesus as the sacrifice fulfilled that need.
            But I still believe that to sacrifice your son – like Abraham did with Isaac – is incredibly hard. I can’t imagine having to make that sacrifice for our Lord.
            Yes Kriss, you are right about that too. We have many more sins than we could imagine we have. That is why we have to look our lives over looking for sins we did not see before. We have to recognize it as a sin, and repent for it. If we don’t see our own sins, we won’t be recognizing the power of God to forgive them. God will not point all of them out to you, and you may miss the message when God gives you a blessing for things as well. God wants us to clean house so to speak regularly to find sins that were either new or because of new circumstances, or even ones missed last time you looked. Recognizing our sins, and praising the Lord for his forgiveness, as well as knowing that without God we would be in the pit and that it is only by his love that we have been given grace.
            We have 2 reasons how Jesus spelled what he wanted for us to do.
            His second commandment: To Love your neighbour as yourself.
            It is saying to love everyone the way you love yourself.

            And the second way he points it out for us is with the verse called the Golden Rule. By treating people the way we want to be treated, God is telling us to love everybody and to treat everyone the way we ourselves like to be treated.

            I don’t see any other thing that God wants as much as those things. We fulfill a duty when we speak to others about their sin, but being harsh with them is going against the Love that Jesus wants us to show.

            I learned when I was small that the best way to learn how a person sees a problem, lets say, is to put myself in their shoes. By doing that I can imagine what could happen when they are like “this” instead of the way I am like “that”. Then you can truly be emphatic, and compassionate with the Love Jesus wants for us.

            You do realize you forgot to tell me whether you mind long posts in reply. Sorry. I like to help others learn all about the gospel, and since I use the scriptures, I believe what I say is the Word of God. I do not twist scriptures or re-word scripture or use scriptures that have nothing to do with the topic. (at least I try not to. 🙂 )
            Let me know either way if you mind long posts, ok. I will honestly try not to do too much on your posts. keyword: try

            God bless!

          • MamaBearly

            I’m intrigued. Do you have a church to fellowship with now, Kriss?
            You have done well with your belief, especially if you have not been ministered to in any way. Even looking through UTube videos of sermons can help you with understanding too, but only by reading the bible ourselves can we know God’s Word the way He wants us to.
            It is not easy to understand the bible without wise council in the way of a person who lives the bible way. Some things can be elusive to our eyes until they are pointed to so we can recognize them for what they actually mean, which could be different or just more information. It’s hard to be sure of what site to trust too. I know that from experience. I started at a church and had a strong thirst to know the Word of God. As I have come along my journey I have grown at various stages, usually from the trials I have been through recently to affect the growth with the lesson I learned by the trial. Trials have lessons in them, every one. We have to look for that lesson when we are going through the trial so we can focus on learning and doing what the lesson is. It is one way to end a trial with a victory that is more than just about getting through it. Learning a lesson during a trial and using the lesson learned is what God does want us to do. There is a reason for each lesson/trial (big or small) that God has chosen for you to go through. He wants to help to make you the best you can be. He wants to help you make it through other things because he taught you one thing. He will bless you for learning about it quickly as well. It’s all about how we can focus on why we have the trial in the first place. Keep meditating on that and the reason will help you learn the lesson. and if you still don’t ‘get’ it, you have more trial to change that too. God won’t give up on you, so don’t give up on God.
            I did like your post a lot!
            Thanks for your post, it never really occurred to me to reach out to people like you who are new to the bible. I’d love to have a discussion about what your beliefs are. I’d like to see if they are something I’ve discussed before because I believe that if I know more people’s way of looking and believing because of that view, I can get better understanding of the scriptures myself. By comparing them, with more beliefs to include in the mix, so to speak, and confirming that they are In the Word of God.
            I can also decide what I do not want to believe. Often more information will make you better equipped to make decisions; including about your belief in God.
            I guess I’d like to know what things you include in your belief, since you sound like you do not necessarily go to church.
            DARN Save yourself!! STOP the rambling!! lol!!
            God bless Kriss!

          • 313Kriss

            Yes. Since the day I accepted Christ as my Savior, I joined a church and have been involved in a structured Bible Study outside of church but recommended by church members. There are several in my area and the purpose of both is to learn the Bible through reading it and answering questions about what you have read. The church in which I belong , is a ‘teaching church’. Salvation is real and you know when you have been changed. I wanted to know everything about the God who drew me to His Son. Still do. When I first started studying the Bible, I read the Bible with a Biblical dictionary because I did not know a Pharisee, from a Sadducee or an Essene. I have been studying the Bible for 18 years now. When I went to church with an uncle as a child, I still remember the stories we learned about Daniel. I think I always needed God and then he brought me to Himself.

            Thank you for your post.

          • MamaBearly

            I love your testimony! It is really well written, and now the silent posters can read it and know that there is a reason to believe.
            Do you work outside the church at all?

            I think Kriss that you will be very welcome here, as we have many posters who don’t understand some parts of the bible, and you can help with that as God’s duty to spread the gospel and draw people to find out about Our Lord Jesus. By acting in a Christian manner, we shine our lights and give glory to God by behaving like Jesus told us to where others can see your good works. If people see enough Christians behaving like Lord Jesus, they will see His Love, and want to know more about it, if they don’t know.

            I didn’t until 8ish years ago. I loved what I thought was God as far back as my memory goes, but I knew only the commercial stuff really: Christmas story, and Easter story. Of course I was more into Santa Claus and the Easter bunny since we were not religious. Without that knowledge, I might have been one of the ones that did not know unto death, and no one is sure what the Lord has planned for them.
            I thought I saw the scripture about it, but other things have taken most of my research time for a while.
            Some people are stubborn about their ignorance, and sometimes we have to give them scriptures to help them understand the error(s) they are making here in the posts. There are some posters who will keep trying to prove their point, no matter how much proof you give them in scriptures. They usually use scriptures that are not focused on the topic but say they are proof. SMH

            I have a bad habit of rambling on Posts. I will try not to be long with you after this.

            I see your shorter post as a sign of “treat others as you want to be treated” and others have it too. I just ask usually to find out the preferences, but I’m 60 and I forget
            sometimes.

            It’s been great to meet you Kriss. Please come to me if you want to, for anything you might need. If I cannot help, I am positive I can find out from some others.
            Thank you so much for the reply. May God’s blessings be upon you always. In Jesus’ name, Amen.

  • meamsane

    Now let me question the “wisdom” of federal judges here.
    If 5 SC lawyers can find “homosexual Marriage” in an Amendment to the Constitution ratified in 1868 ( 14th A. I assure you that such a “right” was never thought of to be included in said A. by any member of Congress-neither Drafters, co-sponsors or states ratifying it) then don’t assume that any lawyer on the bench could not or would not find “Homosexuality” in an act passed in 1964, 96 years later!!

    Now personally, I don’t think the homosexual man should have been fired. He did nothing wrong on the job pertaining to his homosexuality. He simply informed a husband and wife that he was Homosexual to put them at ease, as the article states.

    • 313Kriss

      Perhaps, his sharing this information with a husband and wife was not something they solicited and hearing it made they uncomfortable that the employee would even mention it.

      • Michael D Coxie

        if the employee would simply kept his mouth shut no one would never know and i would dare say if they had any respect for each other they would never come right out and ask that point blank. that’s NOT something you ask someone UNLESS you have known them for a LONG time. when i say long time, i mean 20 or so years.

    • TheKingOfRhye

      I don’t know, I think the argument that sexual orientation discrimination IS covered in Title VII has some merit. They say that IS discrimination because of sex, because an employer discriminating against someone due to their sexual orientation most certainly is taking the person’s sex into account. Or in other words, if they wouldn’t care if the employee was a woman dating a man, but then it’s a different story if it’s a man doing the same…..that sounds like discrimination because of sex to me.

      • meamsane

        What interest should the government have about who or what an individual prefers or desires to have sex with? Title VII has to do with the biological sex of the individual, for instance, a woman (female sex) cannot be discriminated against because she is a woman, not because of whom she wishes to have sex with.

        • TheKingOfRhye

          “What interest should the government have about who or what an individual prefers or desires to have sex with?”

          As long as people aren’t being discriminated against because of that, they shouldn’t.

          • meamsane

            Please, don’t equate government with privately owned businesses.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            I wasn’t trying to do that.

            Honestly, I kinda don’t understand the point of your question. Yeah, the gov’t shouldn’t care who anybody has sex with. That actually seems like more of an argument for making discrimination based on sexual orientation illegal than anything else.

  • james blue

    That’s the trouble with having named categories

  • Michael C

    Alternate headline;

    DOJ Goes Out of Their Way to Defend Firing Gay People From Their Jobs

    • Jason Todd

      You live in an alternate reality. Go see a Christian counselor.

      • MamaBearly

        Jason, did you treat him the way YOU want to be treated?
        How about if you live the life that Jesus told us to, instead of the life you want for yourself? Jesus never said in the scriptures that we are to punish anyone for their sins. Denying someone’s equal rights, is against Jesus’ second commandment – that was to make all the others covered. Love does that, did you know that? That is the way Jesus wants us to live, with love, so we won’t hurt each other and therefore commit sins.
        So I guess you should go to a Christian counselor and ask them why you are not able to read the gospel and realize that Jesus wanted us to love everyone. And not sin, unless repented.

        I do not see where it says that it means that we are supposed to punish anyone for their sins.

        Tell them of their sin, yes, deny equal rights no. Tell them about Salvation and repentance? Yes, Yell and call anyone any names or that they are damned without giving them the knowledge of salvation and repentance, Well, I’m pretty sure that’s a sin right there, Jason.

        God bless!!

      • Ambulance Chaser

        Actually that sounds like a pretty accurate description of what this story is about.

  • Nidalap

    Mainstay of the Left.
    If you can’t get laws passed to forward your agenda, try to expand the coverage of existing law to do it…

  • Dianne

    Why gay men feel the need to tell women that they are gay is so strange. Most gay men look and act gay so it is a “no brainer” that they OBVIOUSLY ARE. This happens in businesses a lot and I hate hearing it. Non homosexuals DO NOT go around ANNOUNCING our sexual orientation because it is NO BODIES BUSINESS! SMH