Homosexual Advocates Protest Church After Woman’s Membership Revoked for ‘Marrying’ Lesbian Partner

CHICAGO — An estimated two dozen homosexual advocates who profess to be Christian protested outside of a Chicago church on Sunday after a woman’s membership was revoked because she “married” another woman.

“Her grandmother was a member, her mother was a member, and she was a member for 30 years. All of this ended last week because she made the decision to marry her partner,” Jamie Frazier, protester and leader of Progressive Lighthouse Church, told reporters.

The woman, whose identity has not been revealed to the media, had attended Apostolic Church of God, a 20,000-member church that was the site of a presidential campaign speech by Barack Obama in 2008. Byron Brazier addressed the woman about her decision, and told her that it was against the church’s position. She stated that she was aware and understood that she could not therefore remain a member.

“It was done with great grief, but it was in faithful observance to the Scriptures and to the body of Christ,” Brazier advised the congregation.

“In this particular case, this member vowed to be in a marriage ‘until death do us part,’ and she made a permanent decision,” he outlined. “When that takes place there must be an equally permanent remedy, and that remedy is that she can no longer be a member of the Apostolic Church of God.”

Brazier said that the woman is welcome to still attend services, but cannot be a member while living in unrepentant sin.

However, those that protested the church on Sunday claimed that the woman was the target of discrimination.

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“How could we say two men or two women in a committed, God-honoring relationship are sinning?” Frasier asked. “Show me how two men or two women loving one another diminishes their capacity to love God, to love themselves and to love other people.”

“This cannot be tolerated. You cannot discriminate against anyone because God loves all people. Love is love,” also remarked Maxwell Brown, one of the event organizers.

Other homosexual advocates stood outside of Apostolic Church of God, chanting, “We are the Church” and “Don’t judge us, love us.” Those gathered also held signs such as “Jesus wept” and “Who would Jesus turn away?”

According to the Scriptures, Jesus taught that those who will not repent when confronted about their sin by the Church are to be disfellowshipped.

“And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the Church, but if he neglect to hear the Church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican,” Matthew 18:17 reads.

1 Corinthians 5, which addressed a situation in the Corinthian Church in which a man was engaged in illicit sexual relations, teaches that the Church is to expel those that claim to be followers of Christ but continually and willfully live in sin.

“I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators. Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters, for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat,” he wrote.

“For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? Do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.”


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  • Reason2012

    No, those who are living in open rebellion against God as if it’s fine, teaching others it is fine, are not the church – the body of born again believers in God.

    Adults continue to permanently turn away from homosexuality, even after decades of believing the lie they were “born that way”, proving it’s not genetic, but the product of indoctrination, confusion, mental instability and/or abuse.

    Homosexual behavior is most literally pointed out as a sin, and God has not changed on that regard. But if a person has those inclinations but does not act upon them, does not dwell in lust upon others, but is instead struggling against them to avoid them, then it’s not a sin. It’s just like sinful inclinations of any kind: it’s acting upon it when it becomes a sin.

    And this is what God says about sin and specifically the behavior of homosexuality:

    Romans 1:26-27 ”For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: (27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their_lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.”

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 ”Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [men who willingly take on the part of a “woman” with another man], nor abusers of themselves with mankind [s odomites], (10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

    1 Timothy 1:9-10 ”Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, (10) For_whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind [s odomites], for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”

    Jude 1:7 ”Even as_Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

    Luke 17:29 ”[Jesus said] But the same day that Lot went out of_Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.”

    Matthew 19:4-6 ”And he [Jesus] answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, (5) And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? (6) Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.”

    Jesus made it quite clear God made us male and female so that a man will leave his father and mother (not two fathers, not three mothers and so on) and cleave onto his wife (not his husband and so on).

    The Word of God rebukes us all – even if we all try to say we don’t believe the Bible, the very Word of God will be our judge when we face Him. And God is a righteous judge and will judge us all – not turn a blind eye to our sin. Do not be deceived by the world: it’s God we will have to convince that His word was a lie, not men. What happened in Noah’s day when the entire world rejected God? Did God spare them because there were so many? No – they all perished except for Noah and his family!

    Proverbs 9:10 ”The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.”

    God spared not His chosen people – we are kidding ourselves if we think He will spare the United States of America if we choose to blatantly turn away from Him.

    Jeremiah 12:17 ”But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, saith the LORD.”

    Luke 17:28-30 “So also as it was in the days of Lot: they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; (29) but the day Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from the heaven and destroyed them all. (30) Even so it shall be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.”

    Romans 1:18-32 “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [suppress] the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

    For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

    For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, m urder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”

    The entire Bible points out men having_sex with men is an abomination. Likewise woman having_sex with women. It’s not just Paul that pointed it out.

    Genesis 19:4-13 “But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of S odom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them [men wanting to have_sex with men].

    And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing [he offers his daughters to be_raped to keep them from having_sex with another man – shows_rape is not the issue but male on male_sex]; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

    And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door. But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door. And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

    And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place: For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.”

    These two messengers were sent to destroy that place before the event where they tried to_rape these messengers.

    Leviticus 18:22 “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.”

    Leviticus 20:13 “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination …”

    Even cross-dressing is an abomination:

    Deuteronomy 22:5 “The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.”

    Deuteronomy 23:17 “There shall be no_whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a s odomite of the sons of Israel.”

    1 Kings 22:46 “And the remnant of the s odomites, which remained in the days of his father Asa, he took out of the land.”

    1 Kings 15:11-12 “And Asa did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, as did David his father. And he took away the s odomites out of the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made.”

    2 Kings 23:7 “And he brake down the houses of the s odomites, that were by the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the grove.”

    Ezekiel 16:49-50 “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister S odom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.”

    And the “pride” parades about homosexuality are more of the same.

    Even Jesus points out marriage is a man and a woman.

    Matthew 19:4-5 “And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?”

    Not father and father. Not mother and mother. Not his husband.

    And only two people of opposite gender can become “one flesh”.

    Live forever, people – not temporarily only to be cast out for living for the things of this world.

    May God/Jesus Christ be glorified!

    • Chet

      10000 thumbs up!

      • Reason2012

        Glad it was a blessing! May God bless!

  • Robinske2

    The teachings of the bible clearly point out that Homosexuality is a sin and if these people are truly saved would feel the conviction of the holy spirit to leave that lifestyle. A church that ignores what the Bible says and tells homosexuals – or any person involved with sin – that the Bible is Bigoted and wrong is in danger of Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

  • mr goody two shoes

    Just as it most certainly true God does not love Christians more than unbelievers or love Lutherans more than catholics or baptists .or love you or me more than The homosexual couple down the road..its also true that God is the only one to say what sin is and he has already Judged homosexuality as a deadly wrong for people he loves that includes every one. In fact every sin no matter what sin is deadly if we cling to it rather than the forgiveness Christ earned for us on that bloody cross for those sins. So no matter what sin how can you want to keep it any more ? When Christ made you free from it ? And showed us the ungodly how much he loves each and every one of us.

  • michael louwe

    Yes, 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.(JOHN.3:16-17)
    ……. IOW, God loves everyone … but homosexuals and other sinners/evildoers/law-breakers love the world and their sinful/evil lifestyle more than they love God/Jesus and to be with Him in the kingdom of heaven.

    MATTHEW.22: = 37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[d] 38 This is the first and great commandment.

    39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[e] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

  • integrity matters

    i love all people and have no problem with 2 people who love each other getting married regardless of gender. My understanding is only God can judge other people and unless we are perfect we should not judge others.

    • MamaBearly

      I don’t think God would agree with your first statement that he would have no problem with it, only because of his Word putting homosexuality as a sin to be repented.
      The second part of your post is bang on.
      Only God can see our hearts and see if there is evil intent in what we think and do. We as humans were not given that ability, and therefore have no authority to judge anyone here.
      I have to admit I have wondered about the love that gays have for each other, as “God IS love” and “anyone who loves is of God”, but many people feel that God’s Word says (somewhere) that the love that the gays feel for each other is an illusion that the enemy makes that makes them feel a love that is not true love. (most call it a delusion). And again, I believe that is something that God has to judge, because we really can’t know if their love is true, and he can. But he is the only one that can judge that. Not us.
      So although it does appear to be that God would approve their marriages, it is not thought of as a possibility by people who believe in God’s word.
      It is only by following what Jesus told us that we are the children of God. His Word tells us that the act of sex that they commit, is a disgusting act. If we truly follow Jesus, we have to look at it the same way. The thing is that Jesus also told us to love each other above all other commandments, and to me that should take precedence over any persons sin, because it is their belief that will, or will not, make them repent for their sins (all of them).
      I love everyone, and that includes anyone who is gay, because Jesus told us we should love everyone with no exceptions given. Because I trust that God is the final word on what is in his Word, I can’t go against my faith, and all I can do is love every one, and treat everyone the way I want to be treated. As long as I can spread the real story of Salvation by repentance, it is up to them to choose; I can’t do anything beyond making sure they are aware of the hope of salvation, and understand it well enough to make a choice. Then it is in the hands of the other person.
      Good post! Blessings!

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        “I don’t think God would agree with your first statement that he would have no problem with it, only because of his Word putting homosexuality as a sin”
        “I have to admit I have wondered about the love that gays have for each other, as “God IS love” and “anyone who loves is of God”, but many people feel that God’s Word says (somewhere) that the love that the gays feel for each other is an illusion that the enemy makes that makes them feel a love that is not true love.”

        ok …. so how do you resolve this contradiction ….. because i gotta tell ya ….. God does not contradict himself …………

        “Only God can see our hearts and see if there is evil intent in what we think and do. We as humans were not given that ability, and therefore have no authority to judge anyone here. ”

        and you clearly do not understand the scriptures that say we do have that authority …. to judge them by their actions …………

        Matthew 7 Read the WHOLE chapter

        Matthew 18:15

        John 7:24

        2 Timothy 3:16

        1 Corinthians 5 & 6

        1 Corinthians 2:15

        Proverbs 27:5, Proverbs 31:9

        • MamaBearly

          Yes we do have the authority to judge a sinner AND to tell them about Jesus and Salvation and repentance to be given eternal life. We need to show them the gospel and help them understand why we feel it important to them to believe and repent. It means we have to show love and compassion and help them to understand what their choices are about Salvation. Once we know that they are aware of the consequences if they do not repent for their sins, Jesus said to let them make their own decision about whether to follow him and repent, or to go the other way, and take a chance that the hell and eternal torment that we believe, is not true. If they have something happen in their life that changes their belief, which many people do, then they will do what they have to do to receive Salvation including repenting – asking forgiveness and trying not to do that sin again – and be forgiven by Jesus and SAVED. Isn’t it a wondrous love that God grants to all people? believers and non-believers alike. He loves us all.
          I NEED PROOF!!!
          I’m not going to bother with the scriptures you pointed out and no one has ever been able to give me proof in scriptures that Jesus EVER said we were to punish sinners, or treat ANYONE badly. So if there is one scripture in those that you listed, show me proof that when we judge it is so we can mete out the punishment for Jesus.
          ONE Scripture. That’s what I need. You know why? Because I know for a fact that there will not be a scripture that shows that in any way.
          God bless!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ” help them understand why we feel it important to them to believe and repent”

            our “feelings” are not the issue …….. our “feelings” have no salvific power …. christianity is not about our “feelings” ………… showing them “love and compassion” by what means …. we present the gospel to them …. many will find it offensive because it exposes their sins and to them that is “hateful” …… it is not about our presentation of the gospel ….. it is about their reaction to finding out they are sinners …. the Father/Christs word does not return void …. it either draws them or it repels them …. it has nothing to do with how we present it …….. should we be obnoxious ….. no …. the gospel is offensive enough ….. but their acceptance or rejection of the scriptures is not about us …. it is about Christ …… and their salvation …. is NOT a choice they make ….. it is a choice GOD makes …….

          • MamaBearly

            I’m still waiting for a scripture that says we are to make anyone feel demeaned or unworthy and not let them feel love.
            OK free will is the right to choose. We choose life with God, or we choose death without him. We choose whether to follow him because he said we do. The first scripture I give is saying it spelt out in words that even you should know and understand.

            Joshua 24:15 KJV
            15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, Choose You This Day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

            The bible teaches us > so it is not just about who was being talked to, but also about what lesson it was teaching that God wants us to learn.

            This specifically says that the people he was talking to had to choose for themselves who to serve (follow).

            I’ll give you this one and more if you need more proof. OK?
            If I am going to reply to all of your post, it will end up being a long Post, and most people do not like them long. If you want me to answer anything more, please point it out and if you want each replied to, then either suffer with a long reply, or ask each in a separate reply.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i di not say we are to demean them … we are to preach LAW and GOSPEL ….. they will not come to repentance if they see no need to repent ….. that does not mean we seek to discover their individual sins …. but they tell us in any event ….. and when the law is preached as it should be … people tend to take offence IF they think it is directed at them …. it is not ….. but they THINK it is and that is CONVICTION of sin …. there is no real repentance without CONVICTION …….

            No … we do not choose God …. He chooses us …. our salvation … is by HIS choice …. not ours ……….

          • MamaBearly

            I address each of your statements in this post so it is a long one, and you will have to go to the bottom to see all your questions answered.

            i did not say we are to demean them

            But you yourself do when gays are on this board. You tell them how unworthy they are in words that are not as blatant as that. You put them down, Amos. That is demeaning someone. You don’t demean me because you can tell I am a sister. But when some people come on the comment boards, you demean them with practically everything you say. If you want anyone to come to repentance, it will encourage them more to listen, and to have understanding of what you are telling them, you have to be kind.
            Calling someone by derisive names is hateful. To Jesus, no one is unworthy, he loves us all, believer and unbeliever; that is in his word.

            we are to preach LAW and GOSPEL

            The law was said to be covered by the 2nd of the newest
            Commandments, and were never meant for the Gentiles at all. Jews are to keep any of the laws that are not about sacrifice, but I Jesus told us that they take away all the prophets, and all the laws.

            Our love for God and desire to serve him because of that love is said in the first commandment. It is all about OUR love for God. As it should be.

            The second commandment is all about US; and Jesus told us that we need not put the sins above each other because we are all sins, and all punishment for sins will be the same. No one gets a little punishment, or just ‘this’ kind of punishment, everyone gets the same
            who sin without repentance for the sin. We have grace but it is about asking for forgiveness, not to be able to sin without it, and it’s not the only point of forgiveness either. If we don’t forgive others sin, we will not be forgiven for our own.

            they will not come to repentance if they see no need to repent

            And they will not understand the need, if you don’t sit and talk to them. Without the gospel, there is no hope for them.

            BTW we would not come to repentance without the understanding. They still need to have the choice that God has offered to all of us, fully explained to them.

            that does not mean we seek to discover their individual sins

            So is homosexuality not an individual’s sin? Or do you mean you do not seek their sins unless they are in groups who tell you they all sin together/the same?

            We do not rebuke everyone else for their sins at all, like some do to homosexuals. If people would let them alone, AND let them have the same rights to the same things we do.

            Including the same right to sin and not repent.

            It wouldn’t appear to be such a big deal if you realize that.

            They are sinners just like everyone and should be treated the same way. There is no difference to the punishment of sins, therefore one sin is not greater than the other.

            but they tell us in any event

            Their confession of sin is a Forced Confession.

            They did not want to “come out” but it was necessary to be able to receive the same rights we have had all the long. Like a place to live, and food to buy, the ability to not be turned away from places, like restaurants, refused services, like construction or plumbers. Do you honestly think gays do not deserve these things because of their sin. The Only thing that is against Our Lord God’s Word as sin goes, is that if they do not repent, they will not be saved. Being married is the same sin because it is about the same sin.

            and when the law is preached as it should be

            You mean the gospel, unless you are speaking of the Jews.

            people tend to take offence IF they think it is directed at them ….it is not

            so telling gays that what you are saying IS about them…. Isn’t being offensive?

            but they THINK it is and that is CONVICTION of sin

            but you are saying that your words will make them feel like they are already convicted of their sin?

            “there is no real repentance without CONVICTION”

            OK maybe I should just check what you mean by that one. OK?

            1)No … we do not choose God …. He chooses us

            Ok Amos, you keep saying this. Prove the above statement.

            Yes it is His choice, based on how we have behaved as Christians, and on whether we have any unrepented sin, and whether you always forgive others as our Father forgives us. Also if you have
            any fruit at all.

            2)…. our salvation … is by HIS choice …. not ours

            Of course he chooses who gets salvation for goodness sakes. But it isn’t only specific people other than they will all be followers. If they don’t follow what Jesus told us to do, I can’t honestly say that those people will have salvation. Jesus is the one that told us how to behave so all Christians would be the same good people who try to act as good as Jesus did, like the scripture tells us. So our light will shine and give Glory to God when the light leads others out of the darkness of sin. That is the whole point of Jesus telling us how we should behave. If we don’t all act like he said, Christianity cannot shine as bright a light and that’s what Jesus wants. Look, it’s not me saying that, it is the scriptures.

            Just by the scriptures that tell us about the Fruits of the Spirits it explains how we are to behave in each one. That’s in Galatians 5 if you want to check it out.

            You’ll find everything I said in the scriptures. Just Search them and confirm their truth.

            IMO as a joke “That’s like a Jesus rule” lol!

            God bless!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “. You tell them how unworthy they are in words that are not as blatant as that. You put them down, Amos.”

            we are all unworthy …. that is christianity …….

            “The law was said to be covered by the 2nd of the newest Commandments”

            the first covers the first four commandments, the second the last 6 …. all are in force ………

            “Calling someone by derisive names is hateful.”

            What “derisive” names have i called them as a group or otherwise …….. they are what scripture says they are …… as are we all ……..

            ” But it isn’t only specific people other than they will all be followers.”

            the only ones that will be saved are the elect ……….. and they have already been chosen …………

            Romans
            8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
            8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
            8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

            Those who will be saved are PREDESTINED to be saved …. it is not our decision … it is not their “decision” ….. there is no “decisional salvation” except that Father and Son have decided ….. from the foundation of the world …….. according to the good pleasure of his will ………….

            Ephesians
            1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
            1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
            1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
            1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
            1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
            1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
            1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
            1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
            1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

          • michael louwe

            Our Holy God’s kingdom of heaven is not filled with unrepentant “Christian” homosexuals/sinners/evildoers/law-breakers.
            ……. It is filled with saints who were Christian good-doers and repentant Christian sinners while they were on earth(eg the repentant robber who believed in Jesus while about to be crucified next to Him, at LUKE.23:43)

          • MamaBearly

            No it won’t have ANY unrepentant anyone. The point of salvation is to have a heaven that will be the way God wanted us to be here on earth. He wanted us to love each other and be good to each other. In heaven that is what it will be like – no sorrows. No sin. LOTS of Love.
            I will mention one thing about your second statement about who will be in heaven. Anyone who repents will be forgiven and given Salvation if they want it. Not everyone believes enough, even when they have repented. God sees their heart, which we can’t.
            So for instance that someone who believes at the end of their lives, repents and accepts Jesus – won’t go to heaven? If Jesus sees their heart is honest he will allow them into heaven. They didn’t have to do good works before they repented and began to follow Jesus, although I’m sure he will consider the good works done before we choose to follow him.
            There is no one who accepts Jesus and repents (Including that will not be in heaven if Jesus thinks they are good (honest) people. It is up to him, not up to us.

            The real point here is that every sin needs to be repented for. There is not a sin that we do not have to repent for. That’s why we need to be aware of our sins.

            Thanks for the post
            God bless!

          • michael louwe

            Seems, you do not differentiate between involuntary sinning-in-thoughts versus voluntary sinning-in-deeds.

            Before someone go and commit adultery, he/she first lusted immorally/unlawfully at another in his/her heart.
            ……. The former results in being cursed by God with earthly curses, eg cancer, calamities, etc.(DEUT.28:15, 1COR.11:30, HEB.10:26-31). The latter results in being cursed by God with being sent to hell when he/she dies. The latter is the result of Adam’s Original Sin(GEN.3:14-17, ROM.5:12). Only those who believe in Jesus(JOHN.3:16) can escape the latter hellish curse.

            While Jesus Christ was on earth, being God-in-the-flesh, He had the authority/power to forgive the former sins/evil-deeds committed by the sinners and remove the earthly curses through healings, exorcism, miracles, etc. But afterwards, Jesus gave a stern warning to the forgiven/pardoned sinner/evildoer, ie “Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.”.(JOHN.5:14 & 8:11)
            ……. This is similar to the power of the President of USA to pardon repentant convicted criminals in prison.

            So, yes, we often sin involuntarily in our minds and hearts which is understandable but if we go and voluntarily commit sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking, there will be drastic consequences, especially sins leading to death.(JOHN.5:16-19)
            ……. It is the duty of the Church to teach and prevent their members from doing the latter. For those outside the Church, they have the government/police to make them toe the line. As we know, the US government condones adultery, homosexuality, blasphemy, idolatry, witchcraft, profit-gouging by businessmen, ‘spare the rod and spoil the child”, etc.

          • MamaBearly

            Sorry for the delay; I’ve been answering all of your points, so this is long but each point you made was referred to in my post.

            Seems, you do not differentiate between involuntary sinning-in-thoughts versus voluntary sinning-in-deeds.

            Sinning in thoughts is something we all hope to do without committing the sin that we think of, but even the faithful can think a thought that is actually a sin, and not
            realize it when they do it, but after it’s done, they realize that they committed a sin, and repent for it then. God forgives us even for that because he is longsuffering towards all of us.

            Actually I do differentiate, but if I can’t discern if it is a sin with intention and try to repent later: I can’t decide anything about a sinner. That’s why it must be left to God, not to us. Jesus is the final authority about sin. That is why we can’t punish other people for their sins here on earth. He said it in the scriptures that we have to leave it to him to punish the sinners. Jesus did not punish any sinners when he was on Earth because he was Ministering, not enforcing. Back then there was a good chance some of the sins he taught about were unknown to the Multitudes. The reason he did that was to teach them about what are sins, so they would know not to do them, or to repent for them. Nothing that Jesus did was punishment, only what he told us about the
            punishment being death – in other words, Hell with eternal torments.

            Jesus also never told us to punish for sins. We are to make sure they know the gospel (PROPERLY) then leave the rest to their own choices to make. He told us that He could see their hearts and we could not so we could not punish for sins. It’s in the
            scriptures. As is revenge up to the Lord.

            Before someone go and commit adultery, he/she first lusted immorally/unlawfully at another in his/her heart.

            Yes that is what adultery is, or ignoring the thoughts and being overcome with
            passion, it is all a sin with any pre thoughts about it. But if they repent, No problem, they are saved.

            Not only that but the sin of Adultery is no longer a law condemning it, Man decided
            it was more fun to be allowed to ruin marriages, than to penalize those who commit adultery.

            You know, we are to follow the law of the land after all.

            No I don’t really think of sins being excused by the law of the land means that we
            should not do those sins, but rather for some of the laws of land, we must try
            hard to stick to God’s commands, rather than Man’s.

            The thing is Michael, for Deut. 28:15 he was God, not Jesus. Jesus did do things
            differently than God did in many things.

            He first told them about the sins, and salvation and repentance. This is where Jesus
            told them about the benefits of not sinning, and the punishment if they continue to sin. Then he told them how to avoid temptation.

            Jesus told them about the same Salvation spoke of by God in the O.T. but Jesus made it a lot clearer with his ministering, and he never said anything like those things in the N.T. so based on Jesus telling us that the prophecies and commands from before his final two commandments were covered by the 2 new ones.

            With all of these things, you seem to forget that everyone has a chance to repent until the end of days ACCORDING to JESUS. He told us that punishment was his to mete out, not ours, because
            1) we cannot know their hearts – Jesus can so he can be confident that the person intended evil when they sinned.
            2) He can also see the love that is in that persons heart by not seeing the evil; the hate, or malice towards others. He told us that evil comes out of the heart, but he looks into
            our heart to see love, because if we love, we will do no evil to others.

            The former results in being cursed by God with earthly curses, eg cancer, calamities, etc.(DEUT.28:15, 1COR.11:30, HEB.10:26-31). The latter results in being cursed by God with being sent to hell when he/she dies. The latter is the result of
            Adam’s Original Sin(GEN.3:14-17, ROM.5:12). Only those who believe in Jesus(JOHN.3:16) can escape the latter hellish curse.

            You are totally right about the fact that sins are punished by Jesus only.
            All sins are going to be punished in the same way, according to God, who told us that he is no respecter of persons, so what one person’s sin, different than another’s will be punished in the same way (Hell) and no sinner will be given anything differently than another on the Day of Judgement.

            DEUT.28:15
            You seem to have missed something with this passage, Michael. When I was reading about all those curses by God, I found that he told them it was specifically for the sin of not following him, which meant they would do evil things, etc. etc. Then he said that if they turned from their wicked ways and worship God, they would see Joy from the benefits he could provide as an opposite to what he could punish for.

            So, Michael, would that not still be the same as the Gospel, that tell us the same that
            if someone does not turn to God then he is cursed by God with Hell, and eternal
            torment at the end of days, but if they change and turn to God and keep his statutes, he will forgive and give them salvation/repentance. It is just more detailed than what we read in the gospel, that’s all. It still means the same thing.

            While Jesus Christ was on earth, being God-in-the-flesh, He had the authority/power to forgive the former sins/evil-deeds committed by the sinners and remove the earthly curses through healings, exorcism, miracles, etc. But afterwards, Jesus gave a stern warning to the forgiven/pardoned sinner/evildoer, ie “Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.”.(JOHN.5:14 & 8:11)

            Yes, he gave a Stern warning. He does not want us to sin. But did he tell us to punish
            them? By word or actions? No. He told them to sin no more JUST like we should,
            after telling them the gospel.

            “Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you” is pretty general rather than the
            specifics that God gave to us in the O.T.
            He also did not give US the power to save people though. We can’t affect the salvation
            of someone else. Each of us have to work on their own salvation. Even our prayer will not be answered if the person has not asked for forgiveness themselves. All he told us to do is to spread the Gospel, tell people to repent, and after that, leave the un-repented sinners up to Jesus on Judgement Day. Although you may not draw someone to Jesus when you tell them, the next person may make that connection and the person will become a believer.

            There is also the fact that I know from experience, He makes us aware of him by
            allowing something to happen in our lives that helps us to believe. Like missing a car accident that you don’t know how they missed hitting you. Or even near death accidents; Or being invited to visit the church by friends, and making you feel like there is a big difference for you I wanted to grab hold of.
            where no one can explain why you are not dead. Anything that is unexplainable
            that is good, of course, people see God’s hands in it and turn to Jesus at a
            church (hopefully)

            That is why we cannot decide if a person is going to be convicted of their sins.
            Repentance, and forgiveness works for everyone, not just some sinners with exceptions. No one is denied a chance to change their mind and begin to follow Jesus
            after repenting.

            It is the duty of the Church to teach and prevent their members from doing the latter

            Yes, it but the only way to do that is to preach about it. It is the sermons that teach us for the most part, especially the Pew Christians who only (sort of) listen to the speaker then go home unchanged.

            Preaching is done in every church I expect, certainly in Christian ones. So I guess you
            could say that every Church complies to that duty. Mine certainly does. I get CD’s of them and watch them at home.

            You can only preach – usually one topic per service – and if anyone misses any
            services, that means they will not know about that topic unless they search the
            scriptures for it themselves.

            But Jesus could prevent their sinning, because he can do Anything.

            But he gave us free will so we choose whether to do what He wants us to do, to behave like. Everything we do for the Lord must be of our free will, or the Lord will find
            it worthless.

            The thing that helps with that is our love for Jesus and the desire to do what he wants
            us to do because of both His love for us, and ours for him It’s that love that makes us want to give up our sin and to repent when we do fall.

            This is similar to the power of the President of USA
            to pardon repentant convicted criminals in prison

            I won’t say how much this annoys me about President Obama and who he released.

            So, yes, we often sin involuntarily in our minds and hearts which is understandable but if we go and voluntarily commit sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking, there will be drastic consequences, especially sins leading to death.(JOHN.5:16-19)

            Michael, there is one reason why people will commit a sin that they are aware of; the Enemy.

            I once smoked, quit when I knew about the body of Christ, and during my journey one time when I was upset, knowing my weaknesses, the enemy whispered ”don’t worry, it’s just one, you can quit after that” and I fell for it because of my sorrow. God knows that that can happen, and when we realize it ourselves we must repent and seek God again.

            The enemy can do a lot against our desires because he knows our weak spots and can direct his attempts at temptation at that weakness. It’s hard to keep our armour on and our shield up when we are sorrowing, so it is easier for us to not see the enemy in the temptation, just the need to do it. Most of us slip at some point or another no matter how ‘good’ we are, or how ‘faithful’ we are, although we try, our flesh is weak, and at times it wins over our sensibilities before we know it, we sin. We fall. We get
            back up, brush off the dust (repent) and let Jesus lead us back home.

            I am sorry it is so long, but I was
            trying to answer the different points you made. For the most part, I also explained
            it for the silent posters.

            Thank you for your post and the discussion.
            God’s blessings be upon you.

          • michael louwe

            Seems, you do not understand that Jesus is God and about how God/Jesus has delegated His authority/power to His Church/pastors/bishops as governing bodies.
            ……. Most Churches today have Church rules and tenets of belief, eg unrepentant homosexuals/sinners/evildoers/law-breakers are shunned or excommunicated, as per 1COR.5:1-13.

            ROMANS.13 = 1 Let every
            soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority
            except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For
            rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be
            unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise
            from the same. 4 For
            he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid;
            for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an
            avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.

            1COR.6 = 1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? 2 Do
            you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world
            will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 4 If
            then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do
            you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge?
            _ _ _ _ _ _ _

            Similarly, the President of USA delegates his/her authority/power to the appointed Secretaries, Attorney General, Federal judges, and all the way down to the FBI marshals and Border agents..

          • MamaBearly

            I don’t know why you would say that. I know he has complete authority over everything. But I also believe that the thing that he based the whole ministry to his children was love. If you can’t see that, you should read the gospel again. He told us over and over again that Love is what matters the most. He told us to love everyone and to treat them like we want to be treated. Those were his greatest commands because Love was more important than anything else to Jesus.

            4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil

            I have a fantastic Pastor/Bishop that is very highly respected in my church. I know what I say is exactly the way he taught me. I speak with him about things I’m not sure of frequently. I believe what he teaches me over any other person. He gives us God’s Word and helps us to understand how it affects our own lives. There is no way you can say that I do not listen to my Pastor and he is a true Man of God. We have our covenant, and tenets, they just are different than some other churches.
            I do look at what the authorities say and what the Bible says. I do not twist scriptures to fit my own belief. I use the scriptures to help others to understand what they mean. I do not insist others believe what I say, I tell them every time to read the gospel, and see if my words be true Words of God. It’s up to everyone to make their own decisions about their belief by reading the gospel, and keeping in mind what I told them while they read it so they could see what I said is from the Word of God.
            All judgement is to be done on Judgement Day. To judge a person’s sin, is one thing, to decided anything past that is wrong. We cannot dismiss them as if we know they will never change, because they might. We are not told their destiny. Everyone has the right to accept Jesus until they die, or the end of times.
            I don’t understand why anyone think that being rude and cruel are in any way what Jesus would want for us to do.
            If we truly love someone, we do not want to hurt them, or sin against them. That includes each and every person that we love. So no matter how you act with sinners, you have to honestly love them. You can’t pretend that what you are doing is because of that Love, because Jesus will know by your heart. If you cannot love them, don’t bother with them at all. And learn how to love everyone.

            It’s Jesus that told us to love each other, He also told us to treat people the way we want to be treated. Love covers a multitude of sins.
            How does that translate into treating anyone the way some go to protests to protest the protest?

            If we want to behave like Jesus, we cannot be like that. We have to show them compassion (as Jesus did with the multitudes) we have to show that we are telling them because of the love we feel for others and the desire to help them.

            We may have the authority to tell sinners they are sinning, but we do not have the authority according to JESUS, to treat anyone without love and in any way we ourselves want to be treated.

            I have never said that any sinners do not need to repent. I tell them that every time but I also tell them that Jesus loves them, and about Salvation. I don’t feel they need to be harped on about their sin as much as they need to be helped to understand why they have to repent and what the benefits are when they do repent.
            I look at it like I do being a parent. If your child does something wrong that you have never taught them about, you don’t yell at them. You should not punish them. They did not know better.
            If a sinner is not aware of the life with Jesus, they would have no reason to repent.
            No matter how we judge, it is with the mind of someone who is supposed to love the other person, not with the sole intent to be harsh and stern about their sin without telling them the whole salvation.
            I see Jesus as wanting us to love each other because we will not want to hurt the ones we love, and that means we will not sin against them. It is the way for us to live so sin will not abound.
            If we don’t act like Jesus, they won’t see our lights shine and give God the Glory.
            Jesus wanted us to judge whether someone who is sinning will listen to what Salvation with repentance is. He is not saying we should be anything to hurt them, because that is not love. He does not want us to shame them in front of the whole world. He wants us to tell them so they will know Him, and His love.
            Truly, does saying “Jesus loves you! You need to repent of your sins. If you don’t you will go to hell.” help anyone to want to know Jesus when they feel they have already been convicted and that Jesus would not care about them because they are sinners and that is blatantly not true.
            Nothing says Love like compassionately talking to the sinner and helping them to desire Jesus’ love, to desire to be saved, and the desire to repent. We can’t force people to repent. We can’t force them to stop sinning. We don’t have that right. But we do have the ability to use our belief in Jesus to help them understand and want to do the things necessary to attain salvation.
            I think I answered what you posted. If I didn’t please explain what I missed for me so I can reply to it in a clearer way.
            Michael, I can’t treat someone badly for being a sinner, as we are all sinners, every one. I don’t think being anything except loving and compassionate and understanding, will help anyone to want to change. Whether it is a gay, or just a smoker – they won’t want to stop their sin, if it is not made clear about the salvation.
            God bless you Michael.

          • michael louwe

            MATTHEW.18: = Dealing with a Sinning Brother

            15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’[b] 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

            ROMANS.9: = 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”[e]

            PROVERBS.6: =
            16 These six things the Lord hates,
            Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
            17 A proud look, A lying tongue,
            Hands that shed innocent blood,
            18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
            Feet that are swift in running to evil,
            19 A false witness who speaks lies,
            And one who sows discord among brethren.
            _ _ _ _ _ _

            If Christians truly love God with all their heart, soul and mind, they will also hate those whom God hates, ie unrepentant sinners/evildoers/law-breakers.

            The parable of the Prodigal Son shows how God loves a repentant sinner/evildoer/law-breaker who had went through much suffering because of his sin. God only welcomes a returning son/child who is repentant or sorry, and not a returning son/child who is not repentant/sorry, eg practising homosexuals, adulterers, incestors, etc.

          • MamaBearly

            If Christians truly love God with all their heart, soul and mind, they will also hate those whom God hates, ie unrepentant sinners/evildoers/law-breakers.
            The parable of the Prodigal Son shows how God loves a repentant
            sinner/evildoer/law-breaker who had went through much suffering because of his sin. God only welcomes a returning son/child who is repentant or sorry, and not a returning son/child who is not repentant/sorry,

            eg practising homosexuals, adulterers, incestors, etc.

            Actually there was nothing in that scripture that said any of that. It was about forgiveness. It was about the love of the son by the father. Even when the brother complained, He was told that he would get everything when the father died and that he needed to realize that it was because of his return to God’s fold that he came back. He knew that his son would not be a sinner or anything that was against God’s Word again, because he came home, and was forgiven”

            It never said that the suffering he went through was directed at him by God. God is in control, but the times that he did something to a specific person was said in the scriptures that told us about it. It was not because of the youngest son was a sinner that he ended up like that other than he spent his money extravagantly (sin)
            and ended up in a proverbial ditch.

            God does not punish sinners when they are on Earth. He gives them tribulations and trials just like he does that Saints. If that is punishment, then all of us are being punished here on earth, because we are all sinners.
            There is one part of Matthew 18 that you did not post.
            Matthew
            18:11 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
            —–You do know that this means that he came to save all the sinners here, right?—–

            God will not give up on anyone. He wants everyone to repent and come to Salvation.

            He hates the SIN not the person.

            And how exactly do you know what anyone will do in their future?

            How exactly do you know whether anyone will not listen to the gospel?

            And besides all that, you are making yourself into a god by telling yourself that you have any authority over anything that is actually God’s responsibility beyond our duty of spreading the gospel.

            We have no authority over anyone or any sins. Nothing. We are all sinners and every sin is the same because God said in His Word, that he is no respecter of persons, and he told us that what one man’s sin is, will be punished the same way another man’s different sin will be. All sin receives the same punishment.

            Does that sound like God hates anyone? Would he not punish a
            sinner worse if it was a worse sin?

            You need to read the gospel again and look at how much Jesus
            tells us all to love each other.

            How often when he tells of sin, he talks of love along with it.

            Just the fact that his final commandments were about love.
            Including Loving each other.

            Add that to the other command to Treat each other the way
            you want to be treated, It tells us to Love everyone and treat everyone the way you want to be treated.

            Do you think that sounds like HATE of anyone?

            My Challenge:
            If you can find a scripture from the gospel, where Jesus told or showed us an example of being mean to anyone, sinner or not, I’d like to see it.

            If you can find a scripture that Jesus tell us to PUNISH any sin in any way, show me the scripture.

            Someone who prophecies tells us specifics about what they see.

            Someone who is psychic will describe the movements and possibly the voice of who they are looking for.

            Someone who says that they know what anyone’s future is, is a liar, Because you can’t know. God will not tell us who will not turn to him, even though he knows the future of all of us.

            So each time you dismiss someone no matter what the sin is, you are turning away someone that will repent and be saved later in their lives? It will be your sin that is punished.

            Each time you do not teach each person the whole Salvation plan, and not just the Repent, and Hell and Damnation. It is against what Jesus wants us to do. Jesus wants everyone to repent, not just some, and he was not specific about a sinner including whether they repent or not. As a matter of fact it was made very clear about that in:

            John 8:9-11 focus verse 11

            9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
            10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
            11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

            He did not tell her to repent, like he did others that told him about their sins. He did not say “you are forgiven, go and sin no more” as he did to other sinners.

            I expect that it was because Jesus knew she would not repent of her sins. He does have the ability to know that.

            Oh BTW I have never twisted scripture to go along with my belief, nor shown scriptures that were not actually anything to do with the subject. I do not tell anyone that they are wrong, I tell them that they should read the gospel again to direct them to the place they need to go to learn the way the teachings of Our Lord Jesus,

            I suggest that they look for the love I know Jesus wanted us to show to everyone. But it is up to them after I have said to read the gospel, to read it and consider whether my words are not of the Truth. I no longer give scriptures in my posts because I remember Jesus tell us that we should search the scriptures, to tell if what you heard was right. He even told us that we should check the scriptures that our own teachers/preachers at church talk about.

            I recommend anyone who wants to know more about what I say, that they can read the gospel and find the scriptures so they learn as they are searching.

            God bless!

          • michael louwe

            After so many posts and Bible verses directed at you, seems you are like the perfect example of sinners/evildoers/law-breakers who refused to repent or admit wrong. The sin of pride.?
            ……. The following is a true story from Jesus Christ …

            LUKE 16: = 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

          • MamaBearly

            I think you should reworded some of that. I have not been rude, and I have only told you what the gospel says. I have in no way broken any of God’s Laws. I am not proud of myself, I am proud of my God who leads me through my life, and he is with me when I try to help others see what he wanted, with NO hate in it for persons. NONE
            I also told you, that I felt you needed to read the Gospel again. That is only saying that you have not read it enough to recognize the love Jesus wants us to have for everyone.
            A sinner/evildoer/law-breaker does not talk about the love of Jesus. They don’t care about him. I LOVE JESUS. And there is no evil in me or in what I say.
            Jesus told us to help others to understand that gospel so they would know the Truth.
            Jesus told us to help brethren to see when they are making mistakes so they can correct them.
            I am spreading the gospel and nothing I have said is not in the scriptures.
            So you should apologize for saying that about me as it is in no way true.
            JFYI I have lived like Jesus for the whole of my life, and I did not even know about him until much later. I have loved everyone, forgiven easily, cared for and about anyone that I see that needs help, or just someone that needs someone to care about them.,
            My sins are small, and I am able to see it if I am going to sin, and stop myself from it.

            On the other hand you and those who believe like you, who I tell to reread the gospel, don’t seem to consider the fact that it is the way that Jesus told us to live.
            If you don’t read the gospel yourself, and see the love that Jesus had for everyone, including sinners, and that he told us how to behave as Christians so we could help the world to see that Christians are good, caring people and would want to follow Jesus because of it. You know, that light that I keep mentioning that Jesus wants us to shine for God’s Glory.

            And as a last point for this post, I have yet to be given a scripture that shows either of the two things I put as a challenge to all. No one has even hazard an attempt to take up my challenge. Not even you.
            The fact is that if you do not show the love for everyone, and do good works including for sinners, you won’t be able to talk your way out of it on the day of Judgement because 1. Jesus told us flat out to love everyone 2. Jesus told us bluntly that we should treat people the way we want to be treated. 3. Everything that Jesus did in his time here was to help the people understand the way to live so we will be the kind of people he wants in heaven. (If you have a nasty attitude toward sinners for instance)
            Jesus taught us about the sins that need repenting, he did not say one was worse than the other. Everything he spoke of is to teach US and give examples of how we should be, and oh yeah. He wanted from the beginning of time that everyone would forgive each other. Help one another. Love one another. That did not change through the whole bible.
            So, tell me Michael, What about Jesus’ command to love everyone, as everything you are pointing out does not show the love of everyone. You seem to pick out people who have sinned as separate from that commandment. Do you treat yourself as badly when you sin as you do others. Do you treat people you are close to as badly when they sin?
            God made all sins punishable by the same punishment, and Jesus told us to repent for our sins so we can avoid that punishment. He offered that to everyone who repents, with no exceptions except when he can see evil in our hearts. He won’t accept someone who repents without that being reflected in our hearts. If we ask for forgiveness, but really don’t think what you are repenting for is much of a sin, Jesus will know it and he won’t accept it. Treating people in the manner you insist that Jesus wants us to be like, is totally inconsistent with the Lord’s Command to love one another and that we should treat everyone the same way we want to be treated.
            You are not doing that, or sounding like that, and you sound like you hate the people, not just the sin. You also do not forgive everyone like you are told to. By doing anything except walking away after telling someone the WHOLE story of salvation, you are going against Jesus’ example, and even what he said to do.
            Michael you must forgive the sinners just like you do everyone else. You have to treat them with love and caring about them; that is by not making them feel demeaned and hated. Jesus never made any sinners feel really bad about themselves. And he said that once they have the ability to choose and know about repenting, we are to leave them alone if they do not want to follow him, after knowing the consequences.
            God bless!

          • michael louwe

            Usually, a person hates it when his/her friend or relative is friendly toward his/her staunch enemy or someone he/she dislikes vehemently.

            2COR.6: = Be Holy

            11 O Corinthians! We have spoken openly to you, our heart is wide open. 12 You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted by your own affections. 13 Now in return for the same (I speak as to children), you also be open.

            14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you[b] are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

            “I will dwell in them
            And walk among them.
            I will be their God,
            And they shall be My people.”[c]

            17 Therefore

            “Come out from among them
            And be separate, says the Lord.
            Do not touch what is unclean,
            And I will receive you.”[d]
            18 “I will be a Father to you,
            And you shall be My sons and daughters,
            Says the Lord Almighty.”[e]

          • MamaBearly

            Well, considering I would have a hard time hanging around with people on the board, since most of them live in the States and I live in Canada. I don’t think I am doing that.
            Besides, the people I talk to are helping me to understand their side, so I can be better at helping them. My pastor told me that because they are helping me so I can do Jesus’s work better, that it is not a sin. If I asked them all to come to a board that I created myself, well, I expect that would be considered hanging around.

            Usually, a person hates it when his/her friend or relative is friendly
            toward his/her staunch enemy or someone he/she dislikes vehemently.

            I have no enemies, I have only friends and loved ones. I told you that I love everyone and that is true. I am able to longsuffer it when someone I am with someone uncomfortable to be around . But I am not rude to them. Everyone should have the right to disagree with anyone. It does not take being cruel to be able to disagree. It also does not have to include hate.
            You don’t seem to remember the commandment that we are to love everyone, with no exceptions made.
            When a brother or sister tells you that they believe in the gospel and that you seem to be confused, or missing something that is in the Gospel, we are to read the gospel and look to see if there is something you are missing. If you don’t at least look, and I am speaking the truth, the Lord said that is a sin in of itself, because you were able to see it for yourself, and did not correct yourself to the way the Lord wants us to be.
            Just as we are supposed to make sure that someone knows the gospel before letting them walk away without believing; it is knowing the gospel and refusing it that makes it a sin. Not listening to a sister in faith that you should look again for the Truth, and ignoring what she says – could be as much of a sin as refusing to repent. Because it is up to each of us to check ourselves for sin, not someone else. If you don’t see your mistakes and correct them, well, it’s a sin.
            Considering I don’t even say you are wrong in your belief, but that you should reread the gospel because you are missing something. I leave it in your hands to believe, or not to believe, but it is your responsibility to look at it and decide for yourself, if what I have pointed out is truth, and whether you need to change anything.
            I think the way I behave is a lot closer to walking the way Jesus would, than it sounds like you are.
            If the Lord led you to a group of sinners, and told you to talk to them and learn from them so you could deal better with them, would you really refuse Him and not talk to them? I can’t refuse my Lord Jesus anything. Where he leads, I will follow no matter what any person says. He is my master and Lord.
            Between what you say, and where my Lord leads me, I’ll listen to Jesus and not to you .
            It’s that simple.
            All I am saying is that there are some things that you seem to have missed that would make a difference to how you live. You should at least look to see what I am talking about.
            Good luck and God Bless!

          • MamaBearly

            Usually, a person hates it when his/her friend or relative is friendly
            toward his/her staunch enemy or someone he/she dislikes vehemently.

            I can’t do that, I have to take each person and consider more than what the two of us disagree on, and I have to allow my friend, or relative, to make the choices in their lives for themselves. I help them see what I see as why they should at least be careful, and then it is up to them to decide.

            I don’t understand what you don’t understand about “love everyone”; hating anyone, whether it is an enemy or not, is wrong. It’s even in the scriptures for us to love our enemies.

            That’s all in the gospel I keep encouraging you to read.

            If a Christian “hates” anyone, they are going against Jesus’ commandment. They are sinning and need to repent.

            If a Christian “won’t forgive” anyone, they are going against what God has told us.

            Forgive or the father will not forgive.

            Michael honestly, who do you think we are supposed to love to follow Jesus’ command? Does your bible have an exception to it, that my own is missing?

            Please Michael, look to your own salvation and live like Jesus wants us to live, which is like Him. Read the Gospel and pray first for understanding please?

            I can only pray for you to listen and understand Jesus’ Word.

            God bless you always!

        • MamaBearly

          Sorry, I forgot to address your first question:

          “I have to admit I have wondered about the love that gays have for each
          other, as “God IS love” and “anyone who loves is of God”, but many
          people feel that God’s Word says (somewhere) that the love that the gays
          feel for each other is an illusion that the enemy makes that makes them
          feel a love that is not true love.”ok …. so how do you resolve this contradiction ….. because i gotta
          tell ya ….. God does not contradict himself …

          Well, certainly God does not change, and it is quite bluntly said in God’s Word that He does not change.
          But! Jesus came here on a mission to spread the gospel, not just die by crucifixion for our sins, Not just to return to conquer Hell. He came to minister to the people. TEACH the people. He never said to ignore the sin when he told us about sinners. He told us to tell them about salvation and repentance and his love and offer of Eternal life. He never said we should make them feel worthless and unloved by God; for one thing God loves everyone, believers, and non-believers. And God thinks everyone is worthy, certainly of his love. So, if Jesus came here to minister, and he did not teach us to punish sinners in any way, how can you say there are people that we are not to love and treat well. Even sinners have a chance to repent before their deaths. If we treat them badly, they will only see the hate, not the love. And it is the biggest commandment under loving God. To Love others as thyself.
          It’s in the gospel, but you have to read it to search the gospel for what I say is true. I believe you are cherry picking scriptures to try to make a point that I am not contesting. Sins have to be repented for. That was not the point I was making. One sin is not bigger than another. God is no respecter of persons and will give one sin the same punishment as another. That’s in scripture.
          Any sin is meant to be brought to the attention of the sinner, even for other Christians like you! Not loving everyone, sinner or not, is against God’s Word. No two ways about it. We have to let them know the gospel, and leave them to choose. If they need more help and ask for it, we give them whatever need they have. We can’t pick and choose who we love by God’s Word; he said everyone. he did not say ‘do not love sinners’, he said to help them choose to follow Him. ….
          Too long to read I’m sure, by someone who disagrees with me, even though I explained why he was acting incorrectly as well as I could. Oh well
          God bless those who read this whole post!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you are speaking as if repentance is our choice ….. that is not part of scripture ……. it is not our choice …. and Christ is here to save a particular people …. He is not here to save “everyone” ….. He is here to save everyone of HIS ……… and no other ……… there is no universal salvation ……

          • MamaBearly

            I’m pretty sure I answered everything you said in this post. So to see them all you will have to go further down than just the first one to see what I replied to each thing.

            you are speaking as if repentance is our choice …..

            First of all, – You are misunderstanding the gospel. You must be forgetting that we have free will to do whatever we decide to – even to sin or not to – until the day of Judgement.
            It is our choice – he told us that he wants everyone to come to repentance. If Jesus wants us to choose to serve him, why would you think that he would force us to repent.

            You do not know scripture if you can say any of what you are saying.

            He’s here to WHAT? You are so far off about what everything that Jesus was here for. Please, read the Gospel and I pray that you will read the scriptures in it, to give you understanding while you re-read it. It is there in the teachings of Jesus that says you are wrong. HE told us that HE wants everyone to come to salvation. Here’s two scriptures about it.

            John 3:16
            I can’t believe you forgot John 3:16. It’s a major verse in the scriptures.
            John 14 to 17 (Focus Verse 16)

            14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
            15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
            16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
            17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the WORLD through him might be saved.
            AND
            2 Peter 3
            9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come
            to repentance.

            Does that sound like we are MADE to come to repentance in any way? Or does it say that God has patience (longsuffering) to wait for Everyone to repent and be saved.

            He wants each one of us to choose to follow him, and has already told us that unbelievers will be punished if they do not have a change of heart.

            But he wants everyone to come to salvation, which has the need of repentance.
            Make sure you read my scriptures, or search the scriptures yourself, to prove whether what I say is true or not. Jesus told us to do that too.

            you are speaking as if repentance is our choice …..

            It is the only way to follow Jesus, so yes we choose with our Free Will, to repent in order to receive God’s Grace and be saved.

            that is not part of scripture ……

            Of course it is, repentance for sinners is spoken about all through the gospel, and the OT as well.

            it is not our choice …

            We have to choose to repent in order to receive salvation and Eternal life.

            and Christ is here to save a particular people ….

            I’m sorry, you are confused. He originally came to help the Jews to have salvation, but then the Lord decided to open salvation up to the gentiles too. So, he wants so save everyone. Other than that, those who repent and try not to sin, with repentance, will be saved. Others won’t.

            He is not here to save “everyone” ….

            .

            Yes he is as shown in 2Peter 3:9 and John 3:16.

            You are twisting the scriptures. He will save EVERYONE who repents and turns to him. He gave no exceptions to that. And I have never disagreed with that statement

            He also told us that EVERYONE who sins, will get the same punishment of Hell.

            He is here to save everyone of HIS ……… and no other ………
            there is no universal salvation ……

            Not Yet, but Jesus WANTS one and if you and other Christians would
            start spreading the gospel, it sure could be one a lot faster and that would
            give God the Glory for fulfilling our Duty. It would also make God happy. Praise
            the Lord.

            So, can you give me a scripture that tells us to demean and defile any sinners? I’ll even take one on homosexuality if it says that we here on earth, can punish them.

            I am expecting someone to find one scripture that proves that. Please.

            God Bless!

    • michael louwe

      As per 1CORINTHIANS.5:1-13, the Church are to judge incest-sinners, homosexuals and other sinners/evildoers/law-breakers who are in the Church, but not to judge those who are outside the Church or who are in the world. If they still do not repent and stop sinning, the Church are to shun or excommunicate them from the Church because a little leaven/yeast will leaven/ferment/decay the whole Church into a cesspool of sin/evil/satanism.

      • integrity matters

        thank you for sharing michael – i love the bible. I love Jesus – and only those of us who are not guilty of sin can throw the first stone. Jesus died to save these people after all.

        • michael louwe

          And don’t forget, [And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”](JOHN.8:11)

          Also, [ Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.”](JOHN.5:14)
          _ _ _ _ _ _ _

          The Jews brought out the Jewish adulteress in order to test and trap Jesus Christ. She did not deny that she was an adulteress in front of Jesus.
          ……. Under Roman Law, adultery was not a crime. Under Moses Law, it was a crime. But Judea/Israel was then under Roman Law and it was a crime to stone an adulteress to death.
          ……. So, if Jesus had “ordered” the Jewish adulteress to be stoned to death, as per Moses Law or God’s Law, the Pharisees would have arrested Him and accused Him of the crime of murdering an adulteress = He would have been crucified. But His time(to be crucified) was not yet come.

          Eventually, the Pharisees got Jesus crucified by falsely accusing Him as the “King of the Jews” who was about to lead a Jewish rebellion against the Roman Emperor/rulers, in order to return Judah/Israel, the kingdom of earth, to the Jews.
          ……. This was why the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah/Christ, ie He did not say He intended to lead a Jewish rebellion against the Roman occupiers.(JOHN.6:15).

  • NCOriolesFan

    100% behind the church!

  • Nedd Kareiva

    The church has been a longtime outpost for Democrat politicians so it’s good to see that it’s standing up for the Word of God.

  • BeBeX

    God-honoring relationship??? Not according to God’s Holy Word. Yes, God loves everyone, but not our sins. That is what separates us from God. God sends no one to hell, we do that to ourselves because of the choices we make in this world. Satan has told the world, homosexuals are born that way. No they are not, because God Created us all, and He Created NO ONE for damnation. God gave us a free will to decide for ourselves, whom we would serve. If you choose to follow satan’s word, then your his child, if you choose to follow God’s Word, and accept Jesus Christ, then your His Child.
    The longer I live on God’s Green Earth, the more I’m convinced this life is a test on whom we will choose to follow, there are only two choices, God or satan. Your eternity depends on it.

    Please, Please, choose Jesus Christ.

  • Dianne

    Thank God that there are still Churches in America that FEAR the LORD and NOT man. Great decision for GOD is Holy.

  • Chet

    Linkage between compromising “churches” and the sky high murder rate… Are there any Holy Bible preaching and teaching churches doing their God-called jobs of sharing the good news gospel while brazenly proclaiming the ravages of sin and the flames of eternal Hell for the unrepentant? Somehow, such message is obviously not reaching the masses, hence, continuous gun violence among other sin…

  • Elca

    This is the result of a Feminist driven culture…but most don’t see the connection.