‘In Satan We Trust’: Florida Atheist Plans to Erect Six-Foot Metal Pentagram in City Park

Photo Credit: South Florida Sun-Sentinel

BOCA RATON, Fla. – A Florida member of the Freedom From Religion Foundation says that he plans to erect a large pentagram in a city park this December in an effort to counter Christian and Jewish displays regarding the birth of Christ.

Since 1990, a city law in Boca Raton has allowed “unattended, expressive installations, displays, exhibits and similar objects” to be displayed during the holiday season in the city’s Sanborn Park. According to a report from CBS12, a local atheist named Preston Smith plans to put up a blood-red pentagram that stands six feet tall, weighs 300 pounds and bears several captions, including “In Satan We Trust,” “I Kneel Before No Gods” and “May the Children Hail Satan.”

Smith, who was raised as a Catholic but now describes himself as an atheistic Satanist, says he likes the pentagram because it represents “the polar opposite of everything that the Church stands for.” He views Satan as a metaphor for rebellion rather than an actual being.

“Satan serves as the symbol to go against—to rebel against—Yahweh, Jesus, and Muhammad,” he said in an interview published on YouTube. “The devil, in atheistic Satanists’ point of view, promotes great things: the separation of church and state, critical thinking, equal rights, science literacy, and sexual freedom—everything organized religion opposes.”

Smith describes his pentagram as a protest against nativity scenes and other religious holiday displays.

“The reason for the pentagram is that we have to have a break on the monopoly of the nativity scenes in public spheres,” he said. “A nativity scene, which is the myth that somehow a 14-year-old girl was magically impregnated—and, you know, it’s the stuff of legends, it’s folklore. We have to break the spell of menorahs being so widespread and acceptable in the public sphere, which is just a fairy tale of one night’s worth of oil burning for, what, eight nights. So I think that’s the direction I was going in.”

According to reports, Smith put up a similar Satanic pentagram in Boca Raton last year, but it was repeatedly vandalized and knocked down. The earliest Smith will be allowed to erect his display in the city park this year is December 1.

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City officials said even though the Satanic pentagram is offensive, Smith is free to display it in the park.

“We can’t say no to this, as offensive as it is,” said Jeremy Rodgers, Boca Raton deputy mayor, according to a report from CBS12. “Our lawyers said whatever you do, don’t do that. Because it will be an expensive lawsuit.”

“I find this extremely offensive,” also remarked Boca Raton Mayor Susan Haynie. “But you know, again, we’ve chosen as the council to honor free speech.”

“This is not consistent with my particular values, but free speech means people have an opportunity to express themselves, whether government likes it or not or whether individuals like it or not,” likewise stated city council member Scott Singer.

However, one local pastor has vowed to knock down the controversial figure once it is erected. Describing the Satanic display as “the essence of evil” and “a welcome mat for Satan,” Mark Boykin of Church of All Nations said he plans to use a sledgehammer to dismantle the display.

“I will take the responsibility for taking the sledgehammer and knocking it down,” he told CBS12. “I think this is reprehensible. I think it’s an insult to our city.”

As previously reported, in 2014, Smith presented an invocation at a Lake Worth commission meeting, during which time he seemed to mock Christianity, or religion in general, by naming off everything from Mother Earth to Zeus.

“Mother Earth, we gather today in your redeeming and glorious presence, to invoke your eternal guidance in the universe, the original Creator of all things,” Smith began his invocation. “May the efforts of this council blend the righteousness of Allah with the all-knowing wisdom of Satan.”

“May Zeus, the great God of justice, grant us strength tonight. Jesus might forgive our shortcomings while Buddha enlightens us through His divine affection,” he continued. “We praise you, Krishna, for the sanguine sacrifice that freed us all. After all, if Almighty Thor is with us, who can ever be against us?”

2 Peter 3:3-4,9 reads, “[T]here shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts and saying, ‘Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.’ … The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”


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  • bowie1

    Atheists don’t believe in the existence of Satan so this profession is not really an honest one.

    • Eldrida Urika

      I wondered about that too, but he’s a hater, so it’s not about Satan it’s about his hate for all the higher beings from the various religions. He just knows that the pentagram is hated by most religions and uses it to aim a shot at us. He wanted an opportunity to talk about his hate too.

      • wandakate

        And all the money he spent on it and the time to erect it will ALL be wasted b/c a pastor there has already said that he has plans to take a sledgehammer and knock it down. Talk about guts or crazy or a mixture of both but that should do the trick…b/c LIFE IS A SPIRITUAL BATTLE BETWEEN THE FORCES OF GOOD AND THE FORCES OF EVIL, and in the end GOOD and GOD will win.

        • Eldrida Urika

          Well, TBH I don’t think that is what Jesus wants us to do about
          sins that others believe though. He would not approve of destroying someone
          else’s property. Only for the sake of prophecies.

          Jesus also told us to fight Evil with Good, not be Evil to fight Evil. Violence of any kind isn’t how I see Jesus handling something like this.
          He would find a way to fight this with something that shows more goodness than something that shows evil.
          The property is not the sin, the idea of it being associated with Evil via the devil that is the sin. It is the same all over the world. They will reach more with a different icon.

          Besides that, this man told us that it was more about hate of the 3 Abrahamic religions specifically, (as the article said), Satanism isn’t necessarily about “our” Satan. It is about rebellion to those Faith and their beliefs. They believe they are bad for the world, not good as believers do. They can often cite scriptures as someone who has taken a more or less honest look at the bible themselves, I have read. They are not pro violence or anything like that. Which is one reason I didn’t like this man’s attitude and how the anger was practically oozing out of him. And I did not approve of what the Pastor did/will do, either. Fight Evil with Good. He is trying to fight evil with evil; isn’t he?

          I have tried to look at things like this from their side and with the point that most of them still believe in the same moral values and the same basic behavior values for the children to be raised with, the ones who are serious about it who keep their anger more to themselves and advocate about the rebellion about keeping Government and Religions separate.

          That is what I was told was their main objective. I just thought it would be a nice to offer them some information I was aware of that might help them. It’s the way I work – I see something I can offer and I desire to offer it. It doesn’t mean they have to take the information and run with it, but I feel better for having said it. That’s more important to me under the circumstances.

          How’s this? Is it better? Was it short enough? or at least better! I hope!
          Thanks for your help with my long posts. I will try harder, truly! I just have to keep remembering to remove most of what I write before I post it.

          • wandakate

            I’ll start by answering your question about the Pastor and what he intends to do once the monument is erected. YES, he is fighting “evil” with “evil”. He must feel very strongly to even think of doing that b/c they will know who did it and possibly arrest him for some jail time. Plus the monument can be erected again. I’m not sure what he thinks the ultimate accomplishment will be, but in my humble opinion the way he’s going about it is wrong…
            This post was a tad shorter so congratulations for at least attempting to make it so. I think that most people would rather read a shorter one than a longggggggg one, I know I would. So keep working on it.
            You can hit edit and go back to take out what you really didn’t need. Sometimes you can shorten it by writing a new sentence with fewer words. This was still a bit too long for me, but better than the “books” you’ve been writing, however I do give you credit for having a big heart and giving it your best shot.

          • Actually, there are plenty of folks not at all intimidated by the length of posts; those who, for example, consider “Moby Dick,” “Hawaii,” “War and Peace,” “Exodus,” and “Shogun,” for example, to be light reading.

            It’s fine to think shorter posts are better, based on your own abilities, but I dislike those who express that all individuals should cater to their own personal desires, and limitations.

            I say, do as you will, based on your own desires and abilities, and do not succumb to the tyranny of the minority.

          • Eldrida Urika

            Thank you for your comment, I surely do appreciate it. I have heard more negative comments than positive ones about the length of my posts. But I am not very good at it because I want to explain everything clearly for the ones who just read the comments and not post. My cousin told me it was good to say more because of those who need to learn.
            TBH I’ll keep trying to make them shorter, but it’s likely that there will still be some long ones. Enjoy your light reading!
            God bless!

        • That Pastor has been fighting for his Christian beliefs for years. I pray for him and his group regularly.

          God bless and protect him.

          • wandakate

            Christians do need to stick together. The Bible tells us that we will be persecuted. We will have trials and tribulations in this life. JESUS warned us that we “must” persevere” so that we can make it to the end. Those who do will be saved.
            We are always to be on our guard, watching, and praying. We are to be aware, alert, awake. We should also know the signs of the times that we are living in. Time is shorter than we think. It’s actually “good” that this Pastor has the faith that he has to be able to fight for his beliefs and stand up to the wiles of the devil, so good for him. More Christians should do that, but many are very weak in their faith. Many have backslidden, fallen away and become luke-warm. JESUS wants us HOT or COLD for our faith. He said that if we are luke-warm He will spew us out of His mouth.

    • DoorknobHead

      They use Satan as an honest metaphor for their beliefs — the taught Christian form of the Satan myth tends to vary from their perspective and the atheist Satanists would probably say their form of the myth is more enlightened, while the Christians would say their form of the myth is more correct because “the bible tells them so” (even if it does not), or because of their faith in what they believe or what they are told to believe by religious authorities.

      • Eldrida Urika

        So they believe that treating someone badly is the right way, instead of treating them the way we want to be treated? Evil is evil and it makes itself obvious. Having a name to put to it is to point it out as Evil because that icon is known as Evil.
        It has nothing to do with how we were taught if we had not church experiences. My cousin started church in her 50s and things she experienced were easier to understand when she knew more about evil and how it is used.

        some people believe in what we read in the bible is true, no question but others who don’t still do not like evil and that is what Satan represents. Satan is not first thought of as a rebel, he’s thought of as Evil and in Hell.
        But our belief that everyone should treat each other as we want to be treated, and loving everyone is not a myth when you think about it. It is very very true that the world would be a better place with more love and better treatment for everyone. We can believe that even without our faith. But our understanding has opened up something that isn’t seen or understood by everyone. It does not mean it is a myth. It means it’s a belief that you just don’t understand, and chose not to believe.

        If I am a white person who only wants to be with blacks because they are “better” than whites, Should all white people avoid him for his belief? Should blacks everywhere embrace him? Or better still Will they?
        Some people think blacks are lazy and stupid. That is their belief and until they are shown the proof that they are not those things, (or at least not all of them). It too is a myth, but it takes proof to change the thinking of the people who have that mindset and have no tolerance for the black people.

        Beliefs can be countered with others beliefs, but not just trashed because you don’t believe like they do. You invite someone to trash your beliefs just because of your attitude, and not so much because they have considered what you are saying.
        People who don’t believe that Christians are good people will not listen anyway. So why trash it? Let people make up their own minds and choose what they want to believe. and don’t be so arrogant to believe that your choice is the ONLY one that is right. If you want to be listened to, you have to treat people with respect and not make them feel bad about themselves.
        Trashing will not make people feel good about your side. If you trash everything I say, how will they know you won’t trash what they believe. If you think you are the only ones that are right, some people decide that it is better to go with Heaven than hell.
        So if you want people to listen, don’t trash, lest you be trashed back.
        People will listen if your words are positive about your own belief if it isn’t based just on trashing other beliefs. Support it without trashing others, and more people will listen, I guarantee it.
        I’m a Christian with strong faith but I don’t like to see anyone struggling when I can suggest a way to stop. I do not feel like you do – obviously, but it is the people who listen to you that make the choice not me. I believe that good will overcome evil. I can only teach what I believe and allow them to make their own choice. so teach them what you believe and allow others to make their own choice without trashing the competition and looking like you are all about something that you are pouting about, and not the true reason for your stand.

        You don’t even have to say that about other religions, all you have to do is teach your own beliefs that are contrary to Christians and let them choose which one to believe. It won’t make them change their minds if they are going to follow you.

        I hope I helped you see a different view. Blessings!

      • Eldrida Urika

        So where do they get their alternate understanding about Satan?

    • YoikesAndAway

      So did anyone expect anything else but lies from satanists?

      • bowie1

        Of course. But I did once know a Jewish fellow who was “studying Satanism” – whatever that meant – during my college years in the beginning of the 1970’s. People are searching but often in the wrong places!

        • wandakate

          Many people want to be IN the world, and OF the world at the same time and that doesn’t work.

      • Eldrida Urika

        Love your name and avatar. I would have PM’d you to tell you but there is not a message part of the board. sorry, sort of.

    • wandakate

      Whether or not they believe is irrelevant…GOD is supreme and satan is the devil, known as Lucifer who used to be a heavenly Angel and he rebelled and left heavens abode and took rebellious angels with him and he is now the god of this evil world. He will be totally disposed of in the lake of fire by Almighty GOD when that time comes. Satan is a very real SPIRITUAL being and has many evil powers to tempt people to go the wrong way, to follow him and his teachings rather than GOD and His teachings. Satan isn’t just a myth, but is a real super powerful spirit being who is just the opposite of a loving personal GOD. People who believe in satan and worship him will wound up where he is in hell (the lake of fire and brimstone). DON’T BE FOOLED. Remember it’s satan who is right now in charge of this world, so don’t wonder why there is so much evil or meanness or killings, shootings, crime, rapes, abortions etc. He’s in charge so that is way, but JESUS will appear and when He does He will take over possession of this evil world from satan and the graves will open at that time. Satan loses in the end.

    • ppp777

      There is no such thing as an atheist .

  • Eldrida Urika

    Where on earth is everyone?? I have never seen a Christian comment board that has nothing to say about an exhibit made about Satan.

    Smith, who was raised as a Catholic but now describes himself as an atheistic Satanist, says he likes the pentagram because it represents “the polar opposite of everything that the Church stands for.” He views Satan as a metaphor for rebellion rather than an actual being.

    “Satan serves as the symbol to go against—to rebel against—Yahweh, Jesus, and Muhammad,” he said in an interview published on YouTube. “The devil, in atheistic Satanists’ point of view, promotes great things: the separation of church and state, critical thinking, equal rights, science literacy, and sexual freedom—everything organized religion opposes.”

    Seems to me he wants to have his cake and eat it too.
    The park and most of the world will accept the “statues and equivalent of Satan for the sake of equal rights, and he’s going to complain that we have ours, and he hates them and wants them gone. SMH

    If he thinks it will be allowed to be the only thing to symbolize our beliefs, he won’t make it. No one – not even non Christians – like the idea of Satan ruling the world.

    Why is his belief any more important than ours in actuality when it’s based on his hatred for all religions. I don’t like the idea of the pentagrams and I hate the words he has inscribed, but if it is just a pentagram I can longsuffer it. I don’t want to longsuffer the satan belief in public.

    And to include children in it. disgusting. HAIL Satan??
    I thought people of his caliber said they didn’t worship Satan, but that is a form of worship right there. We teach the children of our church the way to behave like Jesus, not everything that they will learn as they grow – in many cases because they choose to stay.

    I guess they don’t believe that Satan runs Hell. Well, I do believe everyone has the right to choose whether to believe or not, and he is sounds more like he has been abused as a Catholic child and just as many Catholics that endured that abuse, he hates religion and he blames God for what happened to him. It is a natural reaction for what happened, but it also indicates he really needs help before his problem with hate increases and it becomes a reason to go nuts on religious people.

    • Amos Moses – He>i

      “atheistic Satanist”

      contradiction in terms ………..

    • DoorknobHead

      > Generally Satanists don’t want ANY religious symbols on government property, including their own symbols. Their display of Satanic symbols is often called “the nuclear option” as it helps demonstrate why government should stay neutral on religion, especially to Christians who are inculcated to take so much emotion-based offense towards beliefs that oppose their own. Satanists are doing all the religious a favor by supporting a more strict separation of government and religion. Yet, the religious are often taught to not understand why separation of government and religion is important to religious freedom for all, and freedom of belief in general. The Satanists position is often, either all citizens have a right to put up displays for their beliefs upon government property, in a fair and neutral manner, or no one should. It’s based upon founding principles such as liberty, justice for all, and freedom of speech and belief for all citizens of the United States of America.
      > You have misunderstood many of his positions, and it will take a some deep thinking and some study on your part to actually understand his actual positions, even if you end up still disagreeing with them in the end because you believe what you have been taught. Instead you are currently disagreeing with many positions he does not actually maintain but instead positions you have been taught to project onto people who hold different beliefs, beliefs which he does not have, thereby demonizing those of different beliefs unfairly.

      • Eldrida Urika

        The reason I said what I said is because according to the statements he made, he had nothing except hate for religious displays and wanted to make sure someone else could have a display against theirs.
        Not only that but his sign has one nation united under antiChrist. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a Satanist say that either. not personally.
        I don’t care what he believes as long as it isn’t about hate, and his display is.
        It isn’t about separation of church. That statement is not in what he said at all. These are what he said was the reason he wanted a pentagram display. This man is not a part of any satanist group I’ve read about, not with the antichrist involved on his display.

        A Satanist would also try to show some dignity about his belief. Anyone that is representing the Satanists in any big way makes it a similar respect that we should show others. They aren’t about the little things so much as the big picture. All this one complains about their displays, and then tries to make our beliefs wrong or lies- while his are ok.

        There is no need to be rude and uncaring about someone else’s belief. It does nothing to improve your own reputation, nor the things that are protested about. All it does is make others label you as someone who will disagree without allowing my personal belief at all.

        These are what he said about his reasons. quotes and I did not leave anything out about his reasons. I did leave out the parts that I personally find offensive.

        “Satan serves as the symbol to go against—to rebel against—Yahweh, Jesus, and Muhammad,” he said in an interview
        published on YouTube. “The devil, in atheistic Satanists’ point of
        view, promotes great things: the separation of church and state,
        critical thinking, equal rights, science literacy, and sexual
        freedom—everything organized religion opposes.”

        Smith describes his pentagram as a protest against nativity scenes and other religious holiday displays.

        “The reason for the pentagram is that we have to have a break on the monopoly of the nativity scenes in public spheres,”

        this along with his view of the Christian view and very rudely spoken about them.
        JFYI I wouldn’t agree with a Christian being rude to anyone else. No matter their belief or their insistence I have to change my own. I would not insist on anyone believing in the way I believe either. I would appreciate it if you could know what I believe but I do not believe that I should try to change your belief, just consider other things about the belief you have. Increasing knowledge is in the way to grow Spiritually, as well as strengthen trust in Jesus.

        The only thing I disagree with specifically is the nation under antichrist. It if more offensive to me than anything else he said. I am still offended by the words he said that were rude about my belief. But anyone who thinks anyone who’s title begins with anti is a good choice to make, are sad. Using satan as a symbol of rebellion is different than that for me. I grew up in the generation that James Dean was the Rebel. That the hippie teens were rebelling against everything, and well, rebellion doesn’t impress me overmuch. There are so many ways to change things without the rebellion if you look for it.
        I feel that I am unable to do anything unless God wants me to, and trying to tackle everyone else’s belief is not what that is. I am confident in that.
        I work on things in a closer area to my home, and never hassle anyone regardless of their belief in anything. Yes that means I do not hassle sinners, but I think there are enough Christians that do that publicly to make sure people are told what their sin is. If I talk to someone it is not just about their sins, it’s about the whole Salvation story not part of it.

        I won’t argue with you about your personal beliefs, but I will stick with my view of this man. Thanks for replying though.

      • Eldrida Urika

        No I haven’t.
        I stated exactly what was in the article with some of my own opinions which is what a comment board is about isn’t it?
        I did not misunderstand his positions. He made them very clear in the statements he made.
        Oh, and you know how I have been taught having never spoken to me before? you must be a psychic then.
        You know nothing about me, or my beliefs or my faith in Jesus. Nothing I would write here would even come close to how I feel about those things.
        and I wouldn’t want people here to be that intimate with me anyways.
        I know who satan was and he was not just rebellious he was EVIL.
        If you worship him, then you worship evil. Trying to cast him into a different character will not change that he is EVIL. There is no way to make satan’s Evil as if it has any reasonable things on his agenda.
        Rebel against the government but don’t expect anyone to rush to support an icon like that. The majority have the same view I do, and I don’t think there is anything that can change his reputation to anything that is good.
        It’s your choice to worship EVIL so it’s my choice to find disgust in your choice. I have explained my opinion and as it is an opinion you can only disagree with that. You have no other control on me that will trouble me. I won’t accept your invitation to discuss anything because of who you worship. I will discuss it with anyone else, no matter what religion they are, but anyone who worships satan is not worth even knowing in my person opinion. If that offends you, well, you offend me with your words too.

        • DoorknobHead

          It is a good point that I don’t know what you have been taught, like you and I don’t know exactly what the subject-person of the article has learned from his studies without a long lengthy personal dialogue with our human biases set aside. Yet you do revel some things with your writing. For example, you write as if Satan is real and not just a man-made myth and metaphor, and that is something that must be taught at some point, either by self-study of a book or by others — it does not just spontaneously appear in a person’s mind. I don’t worship Satan, I don’t worship EVIL (big letters or small), and I don’t believe Satan is, or ever was, a real entity. The subject-person of the article also does not believe in Satan’s existence as a real entity and does not worship Satan and does not worship evil, but more likely is just a good decent human being with different beliefs than others and probably does not hate Christians, but instead has sought to understand why people make mistakes in their thinking and believe untrue things, as he once did (from his perspective). Just like Christians may wish the best for others with different beliefs (which includes others being converted to have the same god-beliefs in the future) , he may also wish the best for the religious (which includes them having no god-beliefs based on the use of good critical-thinking skills). Sometimes people are incapable, at a distance at least, of understanding such possibilities, or dogmatically deny, that the other side with different beliefs and good and decent people based upon their level of inculcated teachings. Even if it is true that Satan was, or is, real (it isn’t true), then can’t a fellow human being just be mistaken, for example lack a belief in Satan, and still be a good decent loving person wishing the best for all other fellow humans?

          • Eldrida Urika

            It takes all kinds of people to make this world and because of that we all have our individual beliefs too.

            What you are saying is totally your own opinion, not your ‘belief’ and it relies on criticizing another belief instead of good reasonable reasons to change our belief to what your opinion is and to believe your opinion will give others a reason to have a hope of a future? Or will it insist that people just die and rot away and give no more hope than an average day filled with hard work and not able to get farther in life.

            With God, anything is possible. It just takes belief that he will fulfill his promises to us, that will prove to anyone who believes without proof, that he is real and the faith that kept you believing in his promises is something he will reward you for when the end times come. He will bless you every day if you continue to be a good representative of Jesus. The blessings have to be noticed to be appreciated and seen as a blessing from God.

            But that’s imaginary to you, right? No hope, no peace. no joy. and no enjoying any benefits of our God, or any other. God-s- are imaginary and there is nothing to look forward to, no reason to be a Christlike person that was for not our own benefit and not just for our God’s benefit but for everyone that sees it, and admires the behavior.

            That behavior is to show love and caring towards everyone, and to do things that show our love and help someone out without expectation of return. We should not to use curse words, or treat anyone badly in any way, even if they treat us badly – that’s not easy to do, but it is possible – that’s where the man asked for another mans coat and the Lord told us to give him our cloak as well. The Lord will provide. We are to look to God for guidance with our lives and it will help us make the right choices even when we want to make a bad choice. He knew we would not be able to be totally sin free, as we are flesh not spirit, so he originally made sin payable with the blood of animals, with the animals chosen that will atone for that sin, and another sin will take another 2 animals blood as well.
            Jesus dying on the cross was done so we could be forgiven for our sins, and his blood was shed to represent all the animals that would have had to be sacrificed for our sins, to atone for our sins forever, with repentance being the key to forgiveness.

            I have often wondered what people who think Christianity is a bad idea in every way think it is about. Because I see nothing wrong with anything I just said that could make a bad difference in a believers’ life. Believing is not bad unless it is not an honest belief in anything. Even if you are taught something eventually you will make your own decision about whether you still believe what the lesson was supposed to teach you.

            As I said though, it takes all kinds of people and beliefs to make the world go ’round.

            So this man is complaining that he is sick of Christmas displays about Christmas & that it’s allowed to but no one except the Christians and Jews.

            The fact is NO ONE else celebrates when we do, and we have the right to celebrate our faith and belief. As any other religion is also allowed to have a celebration when it is the date of they choose , it makes the “christian” and ‘no one else’ in no way the truth. It was never about a Christian privilege.
            I can’t see there being any problem until satanists started to point a lie out like it was a truth.
            I’m here to say that you are wrong.
            It had NOTHING to do with a privilege that Christians or Jews have had or will have. There is not contention among the people that do want to be able to put up a display for something they celebrate and all of their holidays are not when ours are so everyone gets to make everyone sick of seeing the different symbols of their faith, and remember how often their holidays last a month, while ours in focus as Christians are likely to celebrate on Christmas day itself, and that’s it until another significant date from the bible is celebrated by someone’s faith. Santa Claus is not our celebration and you can’t blame us for the people believing in a “Fairy Tale” like Santa or like the Easter bunny.
            No you tried to make us out like we want privileges at Christmastime that we should not have, and is aiming at a specific thing and missing the target by lack of critical thinking.
            Because of this fact, putting up a Pentagon does not represent anything except hatred for the Christian belief, and that you want to complain and try to make it out like it’s a privilege that Christians have . It is not a privilege restricted to Christians so you are wrong with your assumption that it is. in this particular case.
            You are welcome to argue whether it is the truth or not, but there is more support that it is the truth and your view is incorrect about Christmas only being about Christians and Only Christians. Thanks though for the words about what you think is a satanists view. It is always better to understand why someone believes in something and especially when it fails to prove that it is any more than an opinion about someone else’s faith.
            The words I keep telling you is you have your personal opinion and that is fine with me, but please respect my right to have my own personal opinion (belief) and do not criticize what you have never experienced. But your belief is ABOUT criticizing our belief.
            It’s like criticizing a fire person for not putting out a forest fire than is hundreds of mile wide, when you have never even been in the position that requires you to experience what the fire person has experienced that made the criticism basically into a lie.
            Belief is what is necessary for God to prove He is real to you in a way only your will see and believe. You will never experience anything because you have a blockage that won’t allow you to believe. It’s too bad, but it’s not my problem. If God wants to change your mind, he will, but I can’t do that and I refuse to try.
            I won’t lower myself to specify what I have to criticize but instead, I’ll just say that your view is as wrong as our belief is. That should confuse the issue for you.
            Good bye and blessings!

          • DoorknobHead

            > “Opinions, not beliefs.” Yes, the religious often use dynamic internal dictionaries they use to define words on the fly. Instead I tend to use dictionaries and with those more closely relate opinions and beliefs.
            > Religion is a comfort. For example, denying that all emergent thoughts of brain chemistry is all gone and no consciousness remains with no afterlife after physical death is disappointing, but some people desire to believe truth over feeling comfort. That’s me! Hiya!
            > Life is not meaningless or without purpose without supernatural god belief. Life can have meaning/purpose without god belief when we provide it for ourselves. Life is more precious when it’s finite.
            > With an imagination, anything is possible to believe. Experiments have show that faith and prayer have no efficacy. People think it has the effects they desire because of confirmation bias. It’s not so much imaginary to me as it is unproven and an explainable human foible.
            > Love and caring for everyone is good! We can agree! Is doing something good and expecting eternal life in return doing something without expecting something in return? What if you believe this is the only life you have and still do something for others without expecting anything in return as atheists do. Also, is allowing someone to believe something we have found to be incorrect or an unreliable way to know something caring? In this way we might both be caring for each other if we try to do the best to argue our positions, in a free marketplace of ideas, without human bias, so that the best ideas from both of our positions might advance and so we might both improve. Win-win for us both, and all of humanity if we are lucky.
            > One’s person’s curse words is another persons creative and highly enjoyable freedom of speech, if done with love or caring. Using curse words to harm others is undoubtedly harmful (a fallacious ad hominem attack — an attack against a person instead of the ideas they are maintaining which might be incorrect). The religious may use god or religious teaching as a guide, but a non religious secular person may use the idea of causing the least harm possible and their own careful thinking and experiences as a guide. Instead of believing in authoritarian morality from a realm that can’t be detected, the secular may believe in a relative morality based upon truths of reality.
            > My father also said statements such as “It takes all kinds of people to make the world go round”. I love that statement. If people can be coxed into believing better ideas, and better modes of thinking and in coming to the most appropriate solutions to difficult problems, then maybe the world may go around with more love and peace.
            > “Christianity is bad in every way” is quite a stretch. I would also tend to not understand people who would hold such a black and white absolutist view — I may think they have not thought through their position thoroughly. Religion has many good aspects, such as community, and group caring of others, and comfort and a sense of belonging, a history of beautiful buildings and music and other attributes. Items that could also exists, and do exist, without supernatural beliefs based upon faith (belief without sound evidence). One helping-others atheist group is “Relief beyond belief” (but atheist groups in a majority religious-minded world don’t generate revenue streams like 2000 year old religions developed that used to habitually suppress atheists by killing them). There are some things that are negative about any absolute belief in anything that can’t be changed based on new evidence. Example: arrogance and the murder of others deemed to be evil or demonized because they hold different beliefs judged heresy against a religion’s beliefs without further investigation.

            > The man in the article is supporting the 1st amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America which the Supreme Court of the United States of America has continuously judged to mean as a separation of government and religion, in part. He, as well as many religious people, have come to the conclusion that a secular government (a government that treats all religious beliefs, or lack of belief neutrally and does not give privileges to any one religious group — therefore making other citizens without those privileged beliefs effectively second class citizens — as a best practice, proven by US history, to be the best way to ensure religious and other beliefs to all citizens most equally and fairly).
            > Government endorsement of any religious belief during Christmas holiday season at the exclusion of other beliefs by definition is exclusionary and not neutral. You may not be aware that there are several other belief systems that also celebrate important holidays during Dec 25th (or if not this day each year, close to this time depending on when the sun remains lowest in the sky): the time of the WInter’s Solstice (which predates Christianity). There are several rising and dying god belief celebrations around Dec 25th in ancient agricultural societies because the sun stays lowest in the sky for three days before it starts to rise again (dying and rising). The Satanists believe the naturally explained Winter Solstice the occurs in many agricultural societies and is a sign of a new year of harvest in the best and most true version to be celebrated around Dec 25th. Moral of that story: be careful making absolute statements such as NO ONE, religions often don’t acknowledge other religious beliefs/holidays.

            > The characteristics ascribed to Santa and Jesus is similar in Christian cultures. Santa is sort of a starter belief for children to help ease them into Christian belief which shares many of the same characteristics — at least that is an easily verified interpretation. Getting children hooked on heaven (and the fear of hell) is very important in continuing Christian beliefs as adults (high correlation).
            > You have obviously not researched the meaning of the Pentagram as the atheist Satanist groups use the symbol. You must realize that the Christian version of Satanism and the Atheist versions of Satanism, including the meaning of the pentagram, are different. The Christian version would naturally use their own versions of the meanings to discredit and demonize Satanism as it is a historically considered an evil-rival religion (when it is often just normal every-day people that lack a belief in the same things Christians believe) There are different Satanist groups, so the pentagram might mean different things to different groups. It does not mean “hate towards Christianity” for any of these groups. It would more likely mean love of knowledge, science, questioning of or opposition to arbitrary authority or be based upon some of the historical uses or modern principles of these groups such as the protection of groups outcast by religion — I don’t know for sure as I am not a Satanist. I am slightly interested in the activist group called “The Satanic Temple” which does activist work in order to help everyone to be treated equally and fairly. You can go to The Satanic Temple website and see their views for yourself, you don’t have to take my word for it. They even have a ShopSatan section the last I checked. Check out their “Seven Tenets” and compare them to the version of the Ten Commandments that you might subscribe to.

            > I respect your right to your opinion, but I also value the principles of the United States of America such as the freedom of speech where all ideas are open for discussion. Consider it as a form of love from me to you that if I think you have some ideas wrong, I will debate you, or any religious person, so that you might be right — just as you might do with me or someone you might care about who you don’t want to see go to the hell you were, possibly, trained to believe is real. Yes, my belief is about critical thinking and criticizing beliefs I believe are wrong, because that is how we learn. To keep an untrue myth alive it needs to be considered “sacred” and “above reproach” or a subject that can’t be questioned. I would say this is part of the trick of religion that keeps people cloistered and protected in their incorrect by possibly comforting beliefs which may prove pernicious and harmful to everyone. In my morality, it would be wrong if I saw an idea that is wrong or harmful go unchallenged.

            > Hopefully evolution has been kind to you, and I hope you strive to learn as many true things as possible and learn to discard as many untrue things as possible.

            > Anyway, thanx for your comments above — I appreciate it.
            PEACE

    • aitchpb

      I, of course like you, do not know the exact reason(s) why he is doing this but I did not get the sense from the article that he is doing it from a place of hate. This also precludes your erroneous guess that he is doing this because he was abused and/or has a problem. That entire paragraph is a red herring and should be dismissed.

      To me, he is doing this to show there are other religions, free speech rights, to “rebel” against the Abrahamic religions, etc.

      As to your children comment, teaching Children about how Jesus behaved may not be the best example for you to use. Jesus, as written in the bible, was not a big fan of families, nor did he always treat people with decency, nor was he always the best example of a human. Then again, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John can not even agree on his age, so all readings should be taken with a grain of salt.

      • Eldrida Urika

        If you don’t want to agree with me, fine, but that doesn’t make your belief any better than mine. You have a right to your opinion and that means I do
        too. Stick with your own and leave others alone except to tell them why you don’t believe and not just what you don’t.

        See the problem with calling it a “Red Herring” on a comment board is that it is personal opinion and you are allowed to disagree and have your own
        opinion. Abuse is what I understand is often the button that makes people upset about a target (what they aim at in Christians) are usually caused by an event in their own lives. He mentioned he was Catholic before, and there are scores of Catholics that feel angry and betrayed by their faith so it isn’t like it is something that rarely happens either. Especially abuse being found in many Catholic Churches. These things all add up to what I told you. If you don’t want to agree, don’t but don’t say mine are red herrings when I didn’t say it was a fact.

        So don’t attack someone without checking on that next time.
        God bless you!

        • aitchpb

          I called the entire last paragraph a red herring because it is one. It is pure speculation on your part. My opinion is informed by the article, which included all three of my points in some fashion or another. You furthering the information about abuse in the Catholic church proves the red herring statement true. No one is in a dispute about the abuse from the Catholic church, but it has nothing to do with the article. I repeat, it is pure speculation on your part.

          As to you trying to imply my opinion was better than yours, that is another red herring. I simply disagreed with you and pointed out why!

          Have a good one, Eldrida Urika.

          • Eldrida Urika

            I told you it was opinion. I think most opinion has a level of personal belief in it. You are just trying to harass me.
            The funny thing about it is that i would be the first to defend your right to your opinion but you belittle mine.
            I gave you no reason except that I spoke from my Christians views first.
            it is nothing I care about what Satanists purported purpose is. It is against my God and it will not be anything I need to know in my life because i will not allow it to be able to get near me. I am in a place that no one can force me to do or be anything with only the internet as my connection except for groceries and the like. It would be hard to force me to agree with anything that someone who worships satan can possibly imagine.
            You did not read how I was saying what I said. You make it sound like I said a lot more than I thought I did.
            Look Troll, be gone.
            You are the perfect troll and I am not the one that you should be trolling. I’m sure you can find a really strong faithful poster that will bother to reply but I am not going to bother with you again. Find someone else to troll,
            As I saw written to you in another post, nothing you say will change how I feel about my own belief and you are being much more ignorant about me than you are about putting the right view into this article IN MY OPINION.
            You are just as much a bigot as the Christians that treat people who are different than they are badly.
            I spoke about MY belief about satan not the satanists. I will not every appreciate anything ever that has a hint of that evil. Satan is the devil and if anyone thinks toying with him because they “don’t believe” will make a difference when he shows himself to them, you will believe then and he will welcome you with a shove into the eternal fires of damnation.
            I know God is real and have had him prove it to me many times, so it follows to say that there is a devil and you are making a mistake thinking he isn’t real. But again, that’s my OPINION.
            I won’t be replying to you to further your pleasure – what was it they say about trolls, they are narcissistic, and psychological disease. Something like that. So have fun finding people here that will bother with you now…

          • aitchpb

            Well, if all you have is name-calling then I’ll be happy to end this conversation, as name-calling is the lowest form in a conversation and truly shows your intelligence, not mine.

            Have an awesome one, Elrida Urika.

            Something to ponder, how do you know anything about Satanists or Satanism if as you stated, “i [sic] will not allow it to be able to get near me”? How does one acquire knowledge on a subject matter if one doesn’t permit any knowledge of the subject matter near her or him?!?

          • Eldrida Urika

            First you are acting like a troll by your replies. At least what I know about trolls. I am new so I know I can make mistakes. I am sorry. Please forgive me?
            If you want to discuss something with me, please don’t criticize how I believe or how I am, as that is saying that your belief is better than mine and everyone should be able to realize that one belief is not better than another one, it is different. The reasons you believe should support your belief. It’s not about what I believe and that I believe it is better than your belief. I’d like you to listen to what I have to say about Salvation and what I believe my religion is about, but I will never tell you that you are wrong in yours. How can I tell you that when none of us really knows for sure. That is what belief is about. Satanists believe that Religion and Government should be separate. I think that is more about politics than religion since it includes the government in the belief and it is the government you must change, not the Christian religion for having history put them front and center.
            It’s a fact that the way that the States has grown through their history that Whites and Christians were put on a higher pedestal because of what the nation was like at the time that it had grown to include those things. So now people have said enough is enough, and because too many people have been influenced by Christians who act hatefully, Christianity is viewed as not acceptable in many areas now. So as time has gone on those things have been changing. Something that took centuries to build is not going to be changed in a snap. These things take time, and nothing will change that, except how you present your belief that they should be separate when you are speaking to others.
            You can’t say ‘we’re better than they are’ or ‘we’re right and they are wrong’ without supporting why you say it. Otherwise it isn’t going to make a change any faster.
            I know a bit about advertising from someone I know. The point of advertising – or showing people something they will want to know about because of how it’s presented. If it has negativity in the ad, it will not be as effective as being positive. People like what is “good” to them, and that doesn’t come from hearing complaints about another product to make your stand sound better.
            If your belief is about something other people will follow you for, it should be able to stand alone without criticizing the other product. There is no need in this society to make the negative aspects as part of the belief anyway. Americans know what is going on in our country, and the ones that care one way or another will already know who they agree with. The others won’t care about it at all.
            So when I hear the amount of hate for one thing: religions and their displays and how it was previously only those specific ones that did it, without considering that it was history that created the situation, not the people who are involved in it now.
            I don’t agree with your view/ belief, but you have the right to say it, but I also believe that I have the right to say mine without having someone be rude instead of simply trying to help me understand.
            You could just explain why you said what you did, with the information that you feel is significant to the reason and left it at that. I believe this way. When I speak of my beliefs that is how I do it. If you don’t want to believe, fine, but don’t be rude to me about it.
            I know there are some who prefer to be arrogant about their personal beliefs, but I am not one of them. I allow others their own beliefs. It’s the way my church teaches. It is up to me to be strong in my faith to be able to listen to other beliefs and remain standing for my Lord and King – Jesus Christ in Faith. If my faith is questioning another belief, then it isn’t very strong in the first place. I have looked into the satanists and most of the other religious beliefs, and then I looked into how the people behave in our society today. I know what I feel I need to know about what is important to me, and to Jesus.
            So try not to be so aggressive towards someone with a different belief until you make sure you really know who they are in character. Besides, everyone can have a bad day! I’m sure it reflects in our posts at times and will in the future.
            That’s life!
            I hope I clarified my position for you. And I am sorry if I misjudged you. And helped you understand why I feel that way about this one man. He is not like the ones that stand up for the belief that actually want a change. He acts like he hates so he joined a group that he can show that hate for. His reasoning for being a satanist is not about justice, it’s about the hate he has. He won’t even acknowledge the victory of being allowed to put up a display himself. Basically, he think it stinks and doesn’t care about the facts at all. Things take time to change after a long time of it happening one way. I just feel his statements in the article made his hate the focal point instead of the stand for satanists beliefs.
            God bless!

          • Eldrida Urika

            Wow! that was long! I’m sorry I’m new and didn’t realize how long it was getting! I’ll have to work on that. wow!

          • aitchpb

            Yes, as I am not able to read it properly without my eyes hurting. (And the post is under moderation, so I’m not able to reply to it directly). A double return between paragraphs/thoughts would be helpful, and you seem to be jumping from one subject matter to the next. It’s very confusing to follow. A more fluid approach would make it easier for one to understand from where you are coming.

            From the gist, I think you are claiming I was aggressive and that all beliefs have equal footing. And, of course, you want me to listen about your salvation.

            First, you may have interpreted my posts as aggressive, but that is completely subjective on your part. If you took my posts as aggressive then that is something with which you will have to contend. This is an interesting medium in which to have a conversation. If you are new here, then one should get used to many different writing styles.

            Second, not all “beliefs” have equal footing. The belief of a flat earth is clearly not on the some level as one which understands our planet is an oblate spheroid. Generally, one doesn’t use the word belief when speaking about facts. One doesn’t need to believe in gravity in order for it to be true. It is true regardless of your, or my, thoughts on the subject.

            As to your “Salvation”, thank you, but I have no need for your religion. I’m not interested in what you are selling. I have studied Christianity now for over two decades and find it sorely lacking in almost all matters at hand.

            Have a good one, Elrida Urika.

            One a side note, one should avoid trying to confuse one’s beliefs with one themselves. People deserve respect. Ideas and beliefs do not.

            Also, the some rights which permit you to believe in your beliefs are the some rights which permit me to question, ridicule, and demand properly verified evidence for those beliefs before I have to think of them as truthful.

            I have never demeaned you, the individual, I have only questioned the validity of your statements. There is a difference there, and it is a huge one.

          • Eldrida Urika

            Your opinion/belief and not mine. So questioning my honesty about something I told you was my opinion.
            Another thing. If you are confused, then I can’t help someone who can’t even show respect for another persons beliefs. You wanted me to listen to you and I read what you wrote. I also said, I would like you to listen, but I did not say I needed for you to listen. Two different things.
            And again the way you seem to come back with criticism is not interesting to me. I don’t need you to try to convince me that My belief is wrong and you are right. I don’t have any reason to listen. I believe in God because he has proved himself to me and a great number of other Christians with individual proof. Your opinion about my belief is what is wrong, and repeatedly telling me, that I am wrong and you are right. All that indicates to me is that you won’t take criticism about your belief and purpose, and you won’t accept someone’s personal experience without proof when I specifically told you that it is something that is about the individual that God uses to give them proof – personal proof.
            They are things that happened and then were over a lot of the time too; not long enough to even think of grabbing a photo. It’s clear for the person who is given the proof, but it’s too small for anyone else to see it as proof. Like I said, it’s personal so how can we prove it.
            How can you prove your opinion about our belief being a bunch of lies?
            Oh yeah, by insisting that you are right about my religion being wrong.

            You have a couple of trollish habits, you also direct criticism towards me about everything I said or opined. I have told you over and over that you are welcome to your belief and I have the same right to have my own belief. Enjoy whatever benefits YOU believe being negative about everything all the time. I’d much rather live with a positive attitude and I am able to because my belief in God, it gives me Peace and joy and hope of a future without people who don’t behave in a positive manner. When I am upset I can call to my God and I will feel calm within a minute. I won’t even get upset again or bother with that upset me until it is necessary. You make it sound even better because of how negative you seem to be about everything.

            You still have not told us about the benefits of your belief other than to pick on other religions, but specifically the Abrahamic Religions because you have not found the proof you look for.

            We do believe in something and you are not required to believe in it in any way. The value and morals that society expects are the same ones in most cases that are in those awful Holy Books that are so filled with lies. It is not doing our belief an injury it’s showing your ignorance of expecting your complaints to be able to replace beliefs just because you say so.
            Isn’t that kind of like the people who say that I believe it because it’s in the bible.
            Have fun telling people about Satan and your dislike of religions; don’t be surprised when people look at you as if you are evil because you use Satan as your symbol. People have this thing about this type of belief – it’s really hard to stop believing in Satan as Evil himself when that is all you believed before you gave your personal opinion that is totally unsupported to a person who doesn’t want to be anywhere around Satan. Most people would take a better to not take a chance in case Satan really is evil, because people don’t want to have anything evil in their lives.

            You demean me by telling me that I believe a lie. that is telling me and others that I am a liar because I believe and will not stop having the faith to keep believing. I am to honest to want others to believe I am lying because that is your opinion, not the truth.
            Most Christians have a problem with the idea of sinning with an untruth. It’s called a sin to lie and we do try to keep those to a minimum, and it is not a good way to show people the goodness of Jesus. We don’t want to be bad examples of committing a sin because we want to be good examples that stand out a something good, and we desire that that something good is admired by others as what they like in behavior and bring Jesus’ ways into the light more for other people.
            You have a long and stressful life ahead of you and I do not envy you at all. I would not want to be in your shoes with a way that it will take years and a lot of good P.R. to convince people of your “belief” and it is going to be frustratingly slow to happen. so I do not envy your future if this is what you are dedicated to do. I mean, you have to face reality that it is a fact of what I have said about the worlds’ attitude about Satan. It’s going to take a lot of fast talking and manipulation to get people to turn away from what they strongly believe already. It is not going to be easy as people tend to stick to what they know and believe themselves over what someone else is going to tell them about Satan. What points you’ve made are not upsetting a lot of people to the same point as it troubles you. It’s a better belief for some, that there is a God to protect us from the person/angel who he told us is evil, than to try not to feel nervous when it feels like there is evil in the feeling in the air or do you think include when you sense danger it is our imagination and there is in fact no danger so we should just not react to it because of our own gut feelings, because in your opinion, their gut feelings are lying to them? Imagining danger?
            Tell that to all those people who saved themselves and others because of a gut feeling.
            So go ahead and have your own opinions and I’ll have mine and never again will those ever meet for a discussion of any kind.

          • aitchpb

            You have read way too much into my writings. You claim to listen but clearly did not read my post with anything other than with a lense of hate and mistrust. How sad!

            Even worse, you resorted back to ad hominem attacks, which continues to show your intelligence level, not mine.

            Have an excellent one, Elrida Urika.

          • wandakate

            I am a professional writer of several books and a recipe book and I might advise you to read over carefully every word and take out ALL words that are NOT necessary for the sentence. Make sure you don’t have a lot of and this and that in there, b/c instead of writing something like…
            And they said that she died and you know I was shocked by it and they went on and one and you would not believe how tired I got listening and well you know what I mean.
            Try…And they said that she died, I was shocked by it that. But then they went on and on. You would not believe how tired I got just listening.
            Just an example of eliminating some words that make what you write longer instead of shorter or rewriting the sentence to make it shorter.
            I read one of your comments but I also found it was way to long so maybe shorter is better and more people will benefit from what you say that way, just a suggestions. Bless.

          • mr goody two shoes

            I love herring pickled or otherwise can’t you guys use another fish instead.

          • aitchpb

            Agreed. Herring is delicious. Red herring, the fallacy, is not. Such is life!

      • Jerome Horwitz

        Point?

        • aitchpb

          It was to counter Eldrida Urika’s comment. Was that not clear from the fact it was a reply to her or his post?

          • Jerome Horwitz

            I was confused by your post and whom it was for. Sorry.

    • Robin Egg

      Hello Eldrida….I am new to this website as well, however, not to posting on line. I have only posted 3 or 4 comments, however, the only responses will be from what would be considered trolls. There are certain articles that draw them out, such as this one. Even though the guidelines discourage this type of behavior, it continues. I have watched trolls be banned from the site, only to return under a new name and account. It discourages people like you and me from commenting because I don’t come to this site to be harassed for my beliefs but to pray for an encourage others and to stay informed. I am just sharing this with you as this has been my experience and maybe others as well who are just so turned off that they have left the site altogether. I am giving it a little longer to see if it improves. God bless you for all the comments that you so sincerely shared. Shalom.

    • wandakate

      That does make sense, but then if the Catholic Church is to blame for the way he’s turned out then if effect it’s their fault for teaching him what they did. It seems to have backfired BIG TIME.

  • pastoredsmith

    I say, if they want to erect it, let them. I say, if they want to “pray” let them. The only thing accomplished by these actions is: 1) It will demonstrate how pathetic their lies really are publicly. 2) It will demonstrate that the First Amendment is alive and well. 3) It will cause Christians everywhere to fall to their knees and see REAL results.

    • aitchpb

      How will it “demonstrate how pathetic their lives really are publicly”?

      Does that mean the erection of the Christian nativity scene demonstrates how pathetic their lives really are publicly? The Jewish menorah?

      That’s an interesting way to look at it! I agree!

      All religious displays demonstrate the same thing; How pathetic their lives really are publicly!

      • Steven Burke

        Well said.

        • Eldrida Urika

          Why is my life pathetic because I celebrate a holiday that is within my own belief? It isn’t any more pathetic that people think of Santa Claus is what Christmas is about.
          I think things of celebration are times of happiness and the freedom to celebrate something, usually from a belief.
          Celebrations are not restricted to Christians anymore.
          If you don’t like that the changes that are being made will take time and won’t happen overnight, that’s your right, but it won’t change the fact that things are changing towards excluding Christianity altogether from anyone’s life.
          >>I would not be surprised if it will be illegal to be a Christian in the future, right here in good ol’ America. Our own nation is turning against us and persecution has already started to happen. And it won’t be a better place for you anyways because the faith of the people who will take the place of the Christians will want their own beliefs to be forced to be accepted by everyone with no choices.
          But it’s still what people like you want. << But that's my opinion.

          So believe how you want to believe. not all of us belittle how you believe. We just counter it with our own beliefs usually. Christians are not supposed to be arrogant and demeaning to others.
          Consider that when you use the same brush to paint us all the same in all ways, I don't do that. The key word to use is Some people, some Christians, Some satanists – or even the ones I know personally, not that I heard about but something I know because of personal experiences that have formed how I see who the people are that want to follow it.

          So please don't lump all Christians in one pile. Some of us are really very nice people who treat people the way they want to be treated. It's always the worst of something that is heard about things more than the good things.
          Coffee's bad for "this" but it's a good things for "this, this, this, and that. and that wasn't mentioned until someone started talking about it.
          I don't want recognition for myself. I want to represent Jesus and be a good person with good values. How I act has nothing to do with the religion I am in, it is about how I feel about Jesus. I don't need the differences in faith to know that. Those things are secondary to loving God to me. That's why I try to be good, because I prefer to be liked as a good person so others will see my example and try to be good for themselves. If I have a chance to explain the gospel I will, but it is not the only reason that I try to be kind to others and helpful in any way I can. I would like everyone to be kind and caring towards everyone and if they are, they will love Jesus because of his goodness. It's easier to see the goodness in something/one, than to only see the bad in everyone. If you see things always in a negative way, it's not such a great life view. If you see things always in a positive view, it creates a feeling of control and self worth.
          When I think about why I believe so I can help another understand, I don't point out the negatives first. Hearing about all the good things are what will attract them to it, and when the negatives are pointed out it will be understood by them. But people with a negative attitude will not listen and will not care about others beliefs, except to point out how wrong it is.
          How about instead of that, you try to point out what is good about your own beliefs instead of trashing ours. It's a much more effective method to get someone to listen in the first place.

      • wandakate

        Only can speak from a Christian perspective, but my observation is that the Nativity did happen and the baby JESUS was born and Mary the Mother and Joseph the Father were present with the animals etc. however where they have messed that whole thing up is their timing. You see JESUS CHRIST wasn’t born in December. It was way too cold in the Holy Land for that to happen and they weren’t taking a census at that time either b/c it was too cold for that too.
        Dec. 25th is a pagan date. He was actually born at the Fall Feast of the LORD which was at the end of September before the shepherds put away their flock in the barns. The story of JESUS tells us that the shepherds were in the fields keeping watch over their flock by nite when this happened, and they were in the fields in late September but then they put them ALL away (the animals) as it was getting cold which means they would NOT have been outside in the middle of the wet, cold winter months.
        The entire date is WRONG, and the story is wrong in a sense but JESUS was born and He is going to return to earth to JUDGE “ALL” people red and yellow, black and white.
        There is NO other way to the FATHER GOD but by His son JESUS.

        • aitchpb

          What does your comment have to do with my post?

          I have studied the Abrahamic faiths for the past 20 years. I’m fully aware of the historical evidence for Jesus, and the Biblical history of his birth.

          I simply do not see a link from my post to yours. Is it possible for you to clarify so I can better understand what you meant to express?

          • wandakate

            Sorry, it went to you but was meant for anyone here who is read it. Maybe they learned something new and truthful, facts…

          • aitchpb

            So you use message boards to prosthelytize your religion? How quaint and odd!

            What about other religions? I’m sure one could learn “something new and truthful, facts…” about Satanism if one took the time to study it.

            After all, not every religion can be correct, but all of them could be incorrect.

          • wandakate

            I don’t know a “SOUL” that wants to know ANYTHING at all about Satanism…I wouldn’t take any of my valuable time to do that. How QUAINT and ODD indeed!
            Every religion is incorrect b/c they’re all created by mortal man, but GOD’s word is TRUTH, and when we know the TRUTH, that TRUTH will set us spiritually free to know the things of GOD.

          • aitchpb

            Sarcasm?

            If not, then I’d like to point out that I have studied Satanism. It’s an interesting religion. I think it’s still a religion and therefor incorrect. But it definitely has some basic, good, decent tenets in it.

            I’d encourage anyone to study it on some level, just like I encourage anyone to study many other religions.

    • DoorknobHead

      FREE MARKETPLACE OF IDEAS REQUIRES TRYING TO SET ASIDE HUMAN BIAS
      I agree with your statement on the First Amendment. Yet the use of framing their position with “…how pathetic their lies really are publicly.” seems generated by emotion based biased against those with different beliefs. The idea of freedom of speech is that ideas enter the free market place of ideas and the best ideas should win after honest and thorough discourse. Yet, if one or both sides are not willing to listen carefully to the other side, enter with extreme bias and don’t try to put aside their own human biases, and instead try to really understand what they other side believes and why they have come to believe what they do, then often the only result will be that one or both sides will just demonize each other. Unfortunately, demonization is one of the main tactics of dogma and ideology based on hate and is not designed to get at the REAL truth but instead is designed to unfairly advance the original ideology. This unfair tactic used by religion against people with different beliefs, even Christians against other Christians with slightly different beliefs, is one reason why Satanists take the moniker assigned to them by Christians of “Satanists.” Demonizing others unfairly is how religions and dogmas destroy others with different beliefs, different worldviews or different ideologies.

      • Eldrida Urika

        ummm I don’t know any Christians personally who demonize other religions. We state our belief and don’t mention the others for the most part.
        I find that the differences in the Christian beliefs is having a very negative effect on how people view Christianity. The goodness is missed by the media and only the negative is broadly aired.
        You seem to think all Christian religions are like that and they aren’t.
        I think it’s actually that the majority of Christians are not arrogant or selfish enough to try to push their beliefs on others at all. It is not how to act Christ-like so we would not do it.
        The ones that do, have a different belief and because of the negative view, they are News Worthy. Being good, caring people who help others with no thought of return but with love and compassion is not what people want to hear about, nor is it what we want to be big news. We are humble servants of Jesus and do not ask for credit. We just want to do what Jesus told us to do and that is nothing that can hurt anyone else. You do not try to hurt the ones you love, and Christians are to love everyone so they should not want to hurt them.
        Put your anger towards the people who deserve it because not everyone in one box is the same.

        • DoorknobHead

          I would agree that most Christians are religiously moderate (especially compared to how Christianity was before 1500) and basically good people. Yet, if an ancient book or religious instruction is based on poor foundations, such as teaching people to succumb to their human biases in believing myth and metaphor as if it is real, religion teaching people how to fool themselves into believing fake-news (apply this to religions you don’t believe, such as Zeus or Thor or Minerva to possibly better see this point from my view if you can’t see how I can apply it to a Christian belief), then that is not a good place to start (god belief being the fake-news under consideration). Of course that is not your position, but that is my position. The Corporate News media (news-entertainment) surely seems to concentrate on the minority of radical views (hate-filled or otherwise emotional and identity-politic framed abnormalities) and often neglects the majority moderate good, decent people with mostly good ideas knocking around their skulls.

          My philosophy is NOT to put anger towards PEOPLE. Instead I try to better understand how people come to their beliefs and instead put contempt against harmful IDEAS while trying to understand how so many people in the world come to believe in so many untrue ideas as victims of the natural processes that create those untrue beliefs.

          • Eldrida Urika

            Ok first of all this is all my personal belief and opinion and not to be confused with quotes much, So please remember that when you are reading this.

            So much to reply to, and so little motivation. I doubt that you will change your mind because of what I say, but if you are willing to “listen” I will tell you what I believe is what the message of the bible is. I prefer to get a yes or no before I expand on what my belief is for you. You might choose not to bother with it at all, so I am giving you the choice.

          • DoorknobHead

            I’ll say yes to “what do you believe and why?” This is how most conversations should begin, but often doesn’t. There is often much assuming done that is the opposite of helpful. The next, or first, question in a more formal discussion would be to try and agree upon definitions so we don’t talk past each other, but that would take some doing and there is little motivation for such effort in this venue. I have probably heard every major angle levied from both sides and from several different religious views from around the world, and to me the best explanations are natural and that people easily fool themselves.

            Correct. We won’t change each other’s minds. The only person that can change our minds is ourselves. It depends on how much we are willing to study to learn what is true, and what we allow ourselves to realize — what we once thought was true just ain’t so. What tends to happen when people of differing worldviews collide, is that their original belief will only get stronger when someone tries to convince them otherwise, even when one or both sides bring up verifiable, irrefutable facts: this is sometimes called “backfire-effect bias.”

            My choice is, I am interested to hear “what you believe and why” but I can tell you that I undoubtedly have heard some version of it before. Feel free to ignore providing answers to what I wrote previously. I am not here to convince, but my writing is for my own enjoyment and my own benefit. I can’t pretend that I can make you think any different.

          • Eldrida Urika

            Well, thank you, what a nice reply. Much like you I think it depends on the persons beliefs how they post, but in this day and age, many people insist that one way is the ONLY way and having laws and making people do what they want is not going to change their attitudes, it is just as likely to create a division of people. Everyone won’t agree on everything but we all have the right to have our own beliefs, and to express them in the proper places. I don’t find discussions that my opinion is not considered, and it is mocked or demeaned instead of just a word to say that they won’t agree is much better. I will listen why they don’t agree but I expect the respect I show to others to be returned. I’m getting old and set in my ways, I guess. Treating people the way we want to be treated is in a lot of the Holy Books (could be all of them, I know about 100 religions that say something that means the same, but instead in the way their readers would understand it. ) I was brought up with that verse. I am not trying to infer you will do anything objectionable, but it seems to be happening (disrespect) a lot here, so I want to make myself clear to those as well.
            I’ve discussed this with atheists and other believers recently but I’m not really interested in changing anyone’s mind, so much as making sure that they do know the Truth and without actually knowing something it means you will make an uninformed decision.
            Religion is something that is a personal, individual experience for everyone who is a believer. We learn about it and we get together on a regular basis but it does not mean that everyone is on board about every thing everyone else believes. If it is in the bible and can be supported with scriptures then I feel I have to look at the scriptures and try to understand it from what others have said.
            I was taught that each of us has to decide what we as individuals believe because not everything affects people in the same way. For instance, a mother of a daughter who is “pregnant out of wedlock”. This will make a lot of Christians choose what they want to believe with regards to that circumstance. Another person has a person with Cancer that is not improving with prayer constantly said. It’s hard to keep faith when these things happen, if you limit your belief to just one focus that is in your life. It takes more than one thing to make anyone believe. It’s not always just what people automatically do nor is it only people who believe strongly that make up a church.
            The church is to give us fellowship, as it is better for people of faith to be together than to be with nonbelievers that might distract us from trying to be sinless. That is the only reason we have that says that we should stay with other believers. (just a point; like minded people tend to be together anyways, each race often sticks with others of the same one, because it is about trust as much as knowledge of what others expect of us.) It is to help us during the rougher times of life and help us see what the bible says about it. There is nothing about our lives that people can’t give you scriptures to help you understand how God told us to handle it.
            So what I believe is not just what my church itself view Christianity is, but as an individual believer that has given a lot of thought about what I have heard, read, taught and decided which one I am able to include to my knowledge of my faith in Jesus.
            So, I believe that Jesus told us to love everyone, with no exceptions made.
            He told us to teach people so they can understand what Salvation means to them, not to us, as it is written in the gospel is more aimed at believers than non-believers. It is help to understand, but it is so we can continue to spread the word, with understanding of it ourselves as believers. Without that, we can’t spread the word properly, right?
            It can be used to teach non-believers but it is telling us as believers about sins and what to do about them. He made a lot of promises about what he wants to offer each of us who honestly believe, and those too might make a difference to someone trying to believe.
            I have been at a big city smaller church and I noticed that some visitors came back and some were never seen again. I always figured it was because of a disbelief that they did not return, and the hope of believing that keeps others coming back. It depends on what brought them to the church in the first place, too.
            To go on, we do not ask people what their sin is, we teach them about sin and repentance and what the benefits are if we try not to sin, and repent when we recognize a sin. Repentance is mostly to show that you do not want to sin, and when you did a sin, you were sorry that we did it once you see it. So by repenting, you are apologizing for doing something that you know is wrong but did and normally when you realize you are doing something wrong, you feel bad about it. I know some don’t but lets omit those for this, please.
            The point of recognizing sin is because sin usually hurts someone, and that is not about love, as we do not want to hurt the people we love.
            So really apologizing for something we ourselves see as “wrong” helps people try not to do things again. When someone wants to stop doing that sin, it is what repentance is to God, a statement that we don’t want to sin and we will try again to not do it. God told us he knows we have a fleshy side that will go against us, but he forgives the sins we recognize and feel badly about. I think that’s a good thing to believe in because it helps others know that there is a better way to live than sinning and hurting other people or yourself. By understanding sin and not doing it, it is a good result of what we were told to do.
            The lessons in behavior that Jesus taught us in his Word, does not extend beyond what people should be like even without his instruction. He wants us to show our love to everyone and he made no exceptions when he told us that. He told us to love as He loved us, which was for a believer, a whole lot.
            He taught us to reflect his behavior so we can show others what it means to be a Christian. The more people see someone’s good behavior the more it is appreciated as good behavior, and admiration leads to imitation, which can lead to believing, but it can also lead to a good life for that person who mimics.
            If we are to shine a light as Jesus told us to, the only way is to be seen as good people so when a Christian who follows Jesus lives as a Christ-like reflection, we want to show others about the person who taught us to be the way we were, and what our bible tells us is the benefits beyond admiration for it.
            I think many people think that Christians are not good people and that they are judgmental and have hate for the people they decide are sinners. “They decide” is because it is not just the sinners but anyone who believes in the same thing even though they do not do the sin and believe that supporting others equal rights is important regardless of who you are.
            In my belief I do not judge people – I have no right to. I am sinner too, and I can’t see the persons heart to find out what kind of person they truly are but I believe that God can and that it should remain in his authority, not our. Telling a person about their sin should be a personal thing, not something that the whole world needs to hear because of someone else sins. We never ask a person who visits or joins, what their specific sin is and we certainly do not go about telling everyone if we did know.
            The times that Jesus told us to rebuke the sinners was aimed at believers who should know the consequences of their sin, and as brethren, help them stop the behavior, as a person of faith, not as a stranger to the person who is not a believer. The “love the sinner, hate the sin” is usually felt as a whole lot of hate, instead of a love of a person who sins. Often it is because they hate the sin so much, that they can’t keep the two separate and it comes out in their voices and in the attitude they present.
            Jesus did not treat any sinners with disrespect or in an way cruelly. The adulteress was told he did not convict her and let her go with the “sin no more” and the way he showed that we were not to judge or punish was all there to learn. Even Jesus did not punish when he was on earth, except the spirits that were hurting people. He never spoke disrespectful to any except when he was fulfilling the prophecies spoken of in the OT.
            They were teachers of the faith, and the law, so by not following what they taught others, is hypocrisy and if it is not pointed out at all , they could carry on doing it. By making a big deal out of it (bigger than other sins he dealt with) he intended to make them stop and do what they were supposed to do, The fact that he knew should have helped them understand who He was if they had listened with understanding.
            The reason I believe that Jesus is real is from personal experiences as well as from listening to others talk about their personal experiences.
            Things that are of God to prove to someone who believes in him, are for the individual in mind. He doesn’t sound horns when he blesses us, but if we are believers we should be looking for them.
            I have had many experiences and so has my cousin in Canada. She has not been rained on for close to 3 years. The rain is stopped when she is out on a rainy day and starts when she is inside. It’s hard to not believe something like that which is consistently done, but it’s not something we think to ourselves “I got proof!” We think of how much the Lord loves us.
            If I did not know my cousin as well as I do, I would question whether it was true too, but I do know her as well as I know myself and she is honest as the day is long and would never talk about Jesus without it being serious. We know what happens if we do lie and it’s just not worth it to lie especially when it comes to giving testimony of the things that God has shown us.
            Jesus is serious about free will too. If anyone who knows the story of the gospel and chooses not to follow, not to believe, he basically told us to leave them alone. Everyone has a chance to change their belief until they die, and I have already heard of many who have. Old, young, on their death bed, One day in the shower even.
            In our church the children are taught the behavior that Jesus wanted us to show. They use scriptures to show that it is said in the bible, and then help them understand what it means to them. They teach to believe, but each and every parent is aware that it might not be something each child will want to do. They want their children to know it so they can decide on their own. It’s not about “making” children believe, as much as it is helping them with some aspects of their own lives to help them manage in life itself. Otherwise it really is up to them just like it is to any adult, it’s just encouraged. No more than encouragement than a parent gives for their child for anything they want to see them accomplish.
            Lets see what have I missed.
            Basically I believe that the Salvation is saying that with love and by recognizing the sins we do, which are harmful or can hurt other people it is the way to stop the sin. When we love everyone we will not want to hurt them, and by trying not to sin it will stop hurting other people. The more love for each other that we have, the less violence and hate will make the world hard to endure at times for a variety of experiences people have.
            God wanted the world to be a place of peace, and joy for us, and a God that provides every need for them, but it can’t work without people wanting to love everyone. Jesus gave us the way to spread the word by action and with our voices, as well as the reading of His Word, to help us become the people that we were supposed to be when God created us.
            Because so many people do not view Christianity with good views anymore, our Salvation is to give us the world that was offered to us but was not to be. Heaven is what people call paradise for a reason.
            No crying. that was one of the things that people would love to live without sadness, or fear or depression. Things we need will be provided for us. No one will hate anyone else and there will be no sin. Flesh will not be there and spirits do not sin.
            The idea of a life beyond this one is attractive to those who need comfort, yes, but it isn’t just about the comfort of “not dying and rotting in grave.” It’s the belief that our God is real and his promises are true that give us the desire to be good people so we can end up in a place like the bible described.
            There are people who can’t believe in something that offers something that is so far from their reality of what their lives have shown them. I understand that it could happen and have nothing against the people who do not believe as I do. I will ask if they know the true message of salvation but I won’t insist they listen usually. That is why I asked you.
            I probably missed something you want to address, so please let me know and I will tell it to you, or if I made something confusing, let me know and I’ll try again. Sometimes I ask someone else how to better explain it.
            I like to help people understand what the bible says, the way I was either taught, or learned from reading the bible myself. I have family who are preachers too, so I expect that helps me some.
            I grew up with religion around me, but my family is not so much about it as I have become.
            Bless you!

          • wandakate

            I’m sure you stated ALL of your beliefs and that you must have brought out some good points, but you wrote way too much in my opinion. If you could have said a lot of that and made it a little shorter it would probably have been read by more people…The comment sections are for comments, not books!!!

          • DoorknobHead

            Thank you very much taking the time and effort in your response. You should thank yourself too, as I find that writing down thoughts for others to consider helps us to clarify our own positions and such interchanges, at a minimum, can hopefully make our positions more clear within ourselves, even if we as the writers end up being the only ones that read them or if no one else is convinced by them for whatever reason. I had actually read your comment a day ago, when wandakate was writing a response, but I was too tired at that time to make an effort. I don’t plan on spending too much time (let’s see how that turns out) making responses, but did snippet some words that I might make random comments on:
            > Separation of races.
            o I thought there was something about “this is why races often find themselves separated”, but didn’t find it during this reading today — sorry if I am mistaken. I actually work and live with several races many being fairly recent arrivals (fortune 100 tech company). Our phrase is “cherish diversity” and I agree with this phrase. I find the races working together very rewarding and productive. Humans did evolve as tribalistic but social animals, so some small bit of this separation is explainable that way. In the USA there was also a period of 40 years where the separation of races and bigotry was written into the laws, and that is part of the reason many areas are still overly segregated today in many places. For example, see the YouTube video “The Disturbing History of the Suburbs” by the College Humor Channel. My point is, if you did make this comment, is only that we possibly live under different conditions, in this regard.
            > “Express beliefs in proper place”
            o It is good to be civilized and to interact in a productive manner using some common rules of discussion or debate, but who gets to decides what is a proper place and time? Sometimes religion asks for or gets special privileges in this regards that other ideas don’t get.
            > “don’t find discussions that my opinion is not considered, and it is
            mocked or demeaned instead of just a word to say that they won’t agree
            is much better”
            o Remember than many people have already considered your positions and have heard everything you have to offer before and have rejected them and so you won’t see thorough real-time considerations happen. In many cases it would be best for civility and for the productivity of the conversation for them to happen in person. For example, a church could bring in atheists to talk to a congregation so that people treat each other better and with more respect. Sometimes these are done in “Ask an atheist” formats so that believers can better understand non believers (if maybe only to better understand that they are also caring, loving human beings) without so much misinterpretation and misunderstanding. Basically it usually happens that both sides end up realizing they they are all just humans who might have come to different conclusions, but are just trying to navigate through life with the information they have gathered or been given. In many cases the atheists actually know more facts about various aspects of religion than the preachers or adherents do. Atheists can also learn that the religions are also caring, loving human beings that should be treated as any human should be treated.
            > “old and set in my ways”
            Me too, but you might think I am just a kid. I turned 50 years old this last week. Yet getting set in my ways is something I also want to create countermeasures against. If I am wrong about things, I want to engage with reliable resources and other people so that I might come to believe more true things and to discard false beliefs I might have.
            > ” know the Truth and without actually knowing something it means you will make an uninformed decision”
            o Many atheists know more about religion than many adherents do. There are many that were true believers, and even preachers, that held as strong belief as any believer for several decades prior to their disbelief. Their movement out of theism is rarely, if ever, a quick process and it can take a decade before many learn the things that they once believed just isn’t correct or is not based upon reliable sources of information. It is not very often “hate’ of god that prompts this slow change, but it might be encountering some disappointing church politics or just a quest to learn their religion better. For example the website “The Clergy Project” says it has 770 participants that are currently Clergy, or were once Clergy but either no longer believe or are on the road to complete disbelief and need a support group (some can’t escape being clergy because it is the only job they know, and their social acceptance requires them to remain clandestine). I am not one of these long time believer people. I have been a robust atheist for over 35, maybe 40 years or more, and never put much stock in religion, because, as I will say it, I was just lucky. There are certain correlating factors that determine a persons religious belief, and I was luck to not have many of those. I did study thousands of pages of world religions, sometimes under they guise of philosophy, but it really was when I read every page of the King James Version of the bible that I became what I call a “Robust” unbeliever. For many theists, reading the whole bible from cover to cover it was starts them on the bath to disbelief. Atheist encourage theists to read their bible from cover to cover as they would any other book.
            > “if you limit your belief”
            I try to limit my belief. I try to limit my belief based upon the evidence. I try to separate fake news from real news using critical thinking (thinking about your own thoughts and checking the reliability of your sources of information) and by learning about and putting up countermeasures to the known human biases that I can control.
            > “trying to be sinless”
            o Of course atheists don’t believe in sin (because there is no divine law because there is no divinity), but instead couch the subject of progressing up the moral arc in terms of harm, and what causes the least harm to individuals and to society.
            > “church is to give us fellowship”
            o Fellowship is both a benefit, as humans are social animals, but can also either be a crutch, or cause unneeded harm as humans are also tribal animals and us against them mentality can be dangerous. Still, it is undeniable that humans must interact socially in a manner that is both productive to the individual and to the group, including the constant inclusions of all humans in the group to be not harmed.
            > “Jesus told us to love everyone”
            o There is a lot of religious assertions and assumptions that I won’t discuss, but in this regard religion acts as philosophy. Philosophy can exist without religion. Philosophy is a starting point, but when put into action the results must be considered so that we do the least harm. Sometimes we think a philosophy or more benign that it is in practice.
            > ” what our bible tells us”
            o Much of what “the bible tells us” is based upon interpretation and can be used for both good or bad, as you are probably aware. For example, the justifications for and against slavery were made using the same bible. If books are the author of such confusion, and there are better ways to progress up the inevitable moral arc, such as with humanism, then maybe old books and ideas should be replaced with new better books and ideas that better encourage proper actions.
            > “The reason I believe that Jesus is real is from personal experiences as
            well as from listening to others talk about their personal experiences.”
            > “God to prove to someone who believes in him, are for the individual in
            mind. He doesn’t sound horns when he blesses us, but if we are believers
            we should be looking for them”
            o Why not sound horns? How is faith more valuable than evidence? It surely isn’t more reliable as all religions use faith claims to come to wildly different conclusions. How can we distinguish between anything that does not “sound a horn” or provide us with any other “fingerprints” upon reality with something that does not exist in the first place. Why is it important that no once can win the Nobel Peace prize by showing irrefutable evidence for any god? It would be important if someone was trying to convince someone else of something that was not really there, but how is this important in any other thing important to life in which we believe?
            >” my cousin in Canada. She has not been rained on for close to 3 years.”
            o It is very interesting that you bring up this point about not getting rained upon. I have had a lengthy conversations with another Christian that made almost the exact same claim (except I think she was in someplace around Greece, and her period of time was for seven years). Rare things happen every day, and it is possible to show that “I didn’t get rained on” claims are not as improbable in a large population and some would think. I can’t see how this is evidence of a extraordinary event existing, specifically a supernatural god, unless the person ran into a down poor and an invisible umbrella broke the laws of physics so that she was the only one that didn’t get wet. Even if the laws of physics was broken, it would not point to a god, especially a specific god, but could also point to an alien species or the human species using science which is indistinguishable from magic until researched futher. On the other hand statistics and probabilities (of a population) can easily explain such cases as not getting rained upon, and there is no need for an extraordinary claim such as a god, or more remarkable, a specific god, as an agent.
            > “Jesus is serious about free will too”
            o There is still debate about if humans have true free will among neurologists. It could be that we only have an illusion of free will and that humans are complex “state-machines” that have ever changing “initial conditions” and the inputs to that “state-machine” determine the outputs, or choices that we make. Free will has not yet been proven and like many other things might not ever be proven.
            > “Otherwise it really is up to them just like it is to any adult”
            o There has been much study done on children. Children to not have the same defenses against believing incorrect things as adults do. I think everyone knows that teaching children when they are young helps determine what they will believe as adults and can lead them into believing some pretty strange things no concordant with reality. Religions have seemed to always have known this. It children around the world were not inculcated into religion while young, and were always taught to make the best decisions possible using critical thinking and how to avoid logical fallacies, then if they were introduced to religion as adults, religion would surely be mitigated to an extreme sense. One the the reasons I choose to engage with you initially was because the first comments I saw from you, in my opinion, misrepresented the Satanists position. There was also a comment that said teaching children to Worship Satan (something they, or many if no most, or at least the person from the article, does not do) was “disgusting” or some word like this. Atheists also find it very disturbing that children are taught how be religious, especially in the fundamentalist or evangelical extremes, and they know how religions teach children how to make mistakes and come to insupportable conclusions. These methods determining the reliability of truth can also lead to what many atheists, including myself, might call a susceptibility for unnecessarily falling for “fake news” in other important matters for themselves and for the country.
            > “The idea of a life beyond this one”
            o Until there is evidence, that can be documented in science books, I lack a belief in such a continuance. To me I can find solace in that non-existence is the highest from of peace that can be possibly obtained. Something that does not exists has no worries, no troubles, no sense of an infinite amount of time passing no past friends or experience to miss or wish it could do again. My lady-friend and I are both non believers and she only has a few months to live (amyloidosis of the heart) and we both have no fear of hell for her. She is actually Thai, so her beliefs would not have a hell in it anyway. She is one of the nicest sweetest people you could hope to meet, and people that are still living will miss her and be sorry for their loss when she is gone. For her and me, being exposed to several religions helps us understand how they are similar and how the come to different conclusions using the same flawed methods. It is very peaceful to know that our time is very short and very limited and that we must do all we can in the one and only present life to enjoy each other’s company while we still can. I am content with non existence.
            > ” grew up with religion around me”
            o That is the biggest factor of religions belief. You didn’t grow up Muslim or Hindu, or believe in Thor, Zeus or Minerva or in any of the other supernatural beliefs that we can determine by evidence existed since at least 40,000 years BC, or in the preached religions that existed for 8,000 years BC, because you did not grow up with those people. These people believed in their gods as much or more than anyone ever has, but they did so by using the same unreliable methods of coming to those conclusions. We are successfully evolved tribal, social animals with “over-active agency detection” that helped our ancestors survive because although they often were mistaken in thinking the wind might be a lion, an agent, in the grass that they could imagine as an imaginary enemy that might consume them and instead of being skeptical and investigating, they ran away from the wind, and an occasional lion, to survive another day and to make babies. In many ways it is more natural to believe in agents that are not there, such as natural lions, or supernatural gods, because that is how we evolved and that is what helped our species survive to this day. Our human biases are important for our survival and more importantly the survival of our ancestors but it is not important that we interpret reality correctly and only to believe true things only that our interpretations allowed our ancestors to survive. Part of becoming civilized and progressing, though, is to know which biases need to be set aside because they are no longer useful as they once were.

            Okay, we both are “possessed” with the “sin” of verbosity! 🙂
            PEACE

          • Eldrida Urika

            So many things I thought of when I was reading this!!
            First I want to say how bad I feel that you have to ‘wait’ for your lady friends’ death. It was be hard and I can’t help but wish it were not so.
            You obviously care very much for her.
            I can’t say I disagree, exactly, with anything you said, as it is very thorough (verbosity does that) and I can’t disagree with what you found for yourself. I’m glad you are happier without it if that’s what you are happiest with.
            I have never really changed because I was taught to live like a Christian without the church/bible involved. Because a majority of people’s ancestors were Christians, even when the people decided not to follow the religion, they still taught their children in the same way and often still do. Behavior is key to knowing if a person is Christian or not.
            For the people who are religious who don’t get involved in the world with their views, most of what they believe is enough to be content. I think many Christians are good people who do not make a fuss about others not being Christian, or about others sins. I don’t believe we should demean another’s beliefs because as I said, belief is personal. I can’t say how being taught in church is bad or good as an opinion from experience, but I have seen our children’s department and how they work. They present any stories of the bible and offer them the stories behind them, and the issue that was being made apparent with that story. Not much differently than a teacher helps students understand a novel they are studying.
            There are some children just not interested in participating so they are given the ability to sit out of it. People who are not interested in something often disrupt the class and it helps no one to have them in the class. I have also seen teenagers (or close to it) who give it up because of their friends and things “in the world” that they want too. I have never seen it appear to be a big problem, I think they are aware of it before, at least I hope so, and pray that they will turn back at some point of their lives. My church, at least, believes that we can encourage, but we can’t force so when it happens we accept it and move on. We believe that it is our free will to choose to believe or not to and even whether to come to a church is no longer necessary for what you call social interactions. YouTube Videos are all over with preachers preaching.
            Fellowship is as much about helping each other through the more difficult times with encouragement that they will end. Yes, I know that they would end anyway, but when you want to keep the Faith you have that God will help you, and something you will point out as could happen to anyone, will strengthen our faith, and I know it has happened that when we go through a trial, and understood the lesson it was to teach, the trial is done. When we cannot see the lesson it is intended (in our view of course!) it takes a longer endurance to get to the end, and it tries to teach a lesson until the end. I personally found that when I did not understand I often had a similar trial shortly afterwards to help me see the lesson. One thing I have been taught by multiple consecutive “trials” is patience. I had never been a patient person for some things. I admit it was not a good thing to be, but I had learned to tamp it down and not let it show to those who do not know me. Manners you know! lol!
            But when I did recognize the lesson, and looked back over the trials, I couldn’t imagine how I could have missed it. I’ve got a calm that I did not have about waiting for anything.
            I know that it could be that I would have had the same things happen, etc. etc. but I don’t know. I have a good imagination to see and write things with, but I don’t project it into my reality. I have recognized that possibility years ago and worked it out then how to be sure of my thoughts. Long before I started to believe. (a lot of society has no patience for a “dreamer” as you would recall from the “hippie days”. As I grew up and people pointed out that it was my “imagination” I had to learn to separate them to have a serious opinion I guess. No one took me seriously about a lot of things, even after I was very young, so it was a necessary adjustment for me anyway. I was no different than most and wanted to fit in.
            Ironically in a way, I became someone that everyone treated with respect and I honestly did not have anyone who would have wished me harm. People came to me for help with problems all the time, even my best friends’ mothers asked me for help with their daughters. It wasn’t until I was in my 40’s that I experienced someone treating me badly enough to hurt me a lot, because before that, no one felt I was someone that deserved to be treated badly. While I went through the bewilderment of their behavior (I saw them as “best friends” as a group of 4, until the group of 3 decided to treat the 4th (me) badly. I was told it was what was meant by being “stabbed in the back”. So with that being a final straw of many problems beyond just them, we moved away. we moved 3 times before I met the people of my church. Even knowing there were people like that, being as old as I was, it was a significant time in my life. It took me a lot to start to trust others and especially women. I had always preferred to be with males as I had 2 brothers close in age and often spent time with them and their friends, rather than other women. I learned at an early age that women look at others more critically than men do. Men don’t really care if you dress well or like to dress down. The ones I knew care who a person is, not about whether they are judged “good enough” by the ones who lead the pack, so to speak. I have female friends but only a few have earned my complete trust because of how I was treated. I have had many good friends that were male throughout my life, and I have always gotten along better with t

    • wandakate

      When praying to a statue of satan nothing happens. The statue can’t see, hear, walk, think, or talk, and he can’t forgive their sins (which they need) and it’s NOT capable of answering their prayers either, so they have gained absolutely NOTHING!!!

  • mr goody two shoes

    Then little babe in the major Savior of the whole world is a much more powerful message because It
    Is God who is pleased with it. . I would not worry about the Satanic garbage what it says or how much larger it is. You’ve read the end of the Bible (Jesus wins) !

    • aitchpb

      To paraphrase:

      The Christians say the Pagens and Satanists are wrong.
      The Pagens say the Satanists and the Christians are wrong.
      The Satanists say the Christians and Pagens are wrong.

      I say they are all correct!

      • mr goody two shoes

        Are you the same religion of the las Vegas shooter ? The religion of me my self and I ? Do you worship at the alter of that god to ?

        • Eldrida Urika

          Isn’t that considered the world religion now? All I hear is I want, I demand, I am right. It’s about me, no one is better than me, and it’s me that can make demands and make them give them to me.

          The word selfless seems to be missing and can rarely be found.

          And the world of Selfies has overwhelmed the world. I personally think it’s about vanity, and not self worth, because it does not come in pictures it is about a mental state that needs more than just a picture of yourself to achieve, but that’s my opinion not necessarily others.

          I guess it just goes along with the scriptures that say that it will be like this at a point in the world. All about them. As you say, me myself and I has become a religion itself.

          The members of that “religion” don’t realize that caring about others more than yourself is much more satisfying. And that’s what people who follow Jesus like to do: care.

        • aitchpb

          I do not have a religion and so far that I know, and have read, there has been no news about the religious beliefs of the shooter either. He could be a Christian for all one knows!!

          Until we have more information, your questions are non-sequiturs at best or are loaded questions at worse. Unless his religious beliefs, or lack thereof, were the reason(s) for the shooting then his beliefs, like your questions, are completely irrelevant to not only this conversation but this article in general.

          • wandakate

            Fact of the matter is He couldn’t have been a believer in GOD or a real true Christian b/c they love, they do not hate and murder and maim other human beings. GOD is of LOVE, and we are told DO NOT MURDER…

          • aitchpb

            The fact of the matter, you do not get to decide who is, or who is not, a “real true Christian”.

            Completely subjective and pure speculation on your part.

      • wandakate

        Satanist and Christians have absolutely NO commonality with one another. What does light have in common with dark? What does good have in common with evil. What does right have in common with wrong? NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING and never will.
        We can’t believe in satan and GOD at the same time, IMPOSSIBLE!

        • aitchpb

          What?

          Have you studied Satanism? You have more in common than you think.

          That stated, there are some major differences. Satanists encourage learning and basing opinions on evidence, Christians have no such tenant.

          Until you actually put in the time to study another religion, your opinion is based on nothing but your personal bias.

          To paraphrase:

          Anything you claim to be “true” without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

    • wandakate

      GOD wins and satan loses in the end and yes Revelation tells us all about it.

  • Debra Burnsworth

    The bottom line is that this display is to point out that our government cannot be used solely by Christians to promote their agenda. If the government is going to be used, it should be used by all equally. As with most non-Christian entities that are countering Christian displays at government venues, they would prefer NO displays, period. But as long as Christians continue to USE the government to further their agenda, so will non-theists.

    • Eldrida Urika

      How is putting up a celebratory display anything to do with using the government, especially since everyone can put up a display if they want to.
      I disagree, most non-whites/non Christians have no problem with them, and if they want to put something of their own up, when they have holidays, they can. They just do not celebrate Christmas but they understand celebration. You should not say that like all people of a group are the same.
      Why should Christians be the only one that can’t have a holiday display. The other religions have them when they have holidays. Christians have been the ones in history to do it, that’s all. People of different color and faiths have had their own celebrations for years now. With displays to celebrate too.
      Why do other religions/beliefs want no displays when they can have theirs for their holidays. I think you have a limited view of the people you speak for.
      Putting up holiday displays is not using the government without including the other displays, nor is it able to be restricted by the government, but by the people who have it in their own areas.
      So No, The display of a celebration has no infringement on other religions that don’t celebrate the same holiday. Because they can use the same methods to celebrate their own holidays at those times.
      And you should stop speaking for groups of people who you do not know agree with you. Obviously they don’t agree with you if they enjoy putting their own displays when it is their own holidays. It has been that way for years around the States, and because it does not affect Christmas, it is not a big deal for others.

      • ZappaSaid88

        “How is putting up a celebratory display anything to do with using the government” – it’s on public land. These displays go up in parks and on courthouse lawns every year. The government has 2 legal options for these displays. Allow none or allow all. This article represents what happens when they allow all.

        • Eldrida Urika

          Your points are moot, without giving solutions.

          Having a permit office for public land is necessary to keeping it all legal actually, so one person should not have the ability to make them remove the display that someone has a permit for, in this case. It is run by someone in the area affected so it is able to be what the people of the area are comfortable with. It’s the Local office you want to deal with first, because a lot of those people just give in for some cases out of fear of going against one of the newer laws.

          What is your remedy to what you are complaining about? It might be something I agree with, you never know. But I hope you will consider what I say, it may change the way everyone here thinks about this particular complain as it explains why the complaint is moot.

          We celebrate a lot of things in this nation so there is no reasonable reason to remove our displays about our celebrations. The only reason you only see them “everywhere” is because they are the only religions that celebrate anything at that time. No preferences
          needed, it is a fact and for years the other religions have always been able to celebrate theirs too.

          Google “festivals” and look at the way other religions celebrate their holidays. Then look at the images and see if there is any difference about their celebration and how we display the story of the birth of Jesus.

          They have their beliefs and we have ours and for the most part, they don’t seem to conflict as far as when they happen by date. So no one is being refused to display things about their beliefs during their own holidays.

          I pray for your understanding of what I said. God bless!

          • ZappaSaid88

            I’m not complaining nor am I looking for any solution since none is required. I just answered your question. The current system is all or nothing. it’s fair and it’s fine by me.

          • Eldrida Urika

            I’m sorry then. I seem to be getting confused about others tone in their posts. People I feel are against my posts, turn out to not be. People are reacting to my posts in ways that are not aligned with what I felt I said.
            I’m not sure I like this idea of comments – I’d rather have discussions not arguments. The idea that hearing others belief is not bad unless there is a malcontent in the mix. Others seem to accept that others have a different view but some just want to be right at any cost as far as I can tell. I am sorry if I jumped at you. I’ve been trying to keep my cool about another poster and it’s getting me stressed. But I should not take that out on others and I am sorry if I have. Please forgive me for anything I said that did not sound proper.

          • wandakate

            Nice of you to give an apology and asked for forgiveness, that was BIG of you. More people should practice that…

        • wandakate

          Allowing ALL has caused a big problem though has it not? Even one of the town’s pastor’s said that he will personally go and sledgehammer it down to the grown (I would say their decision was wrong). Therefore in my better judgment and with the wisdom the LORD has give unto me I would suggest NO displays whatsoever at a courthouse or the city all or the mayor’s office or in a public park. Better decision, that way NOBODY will be offended b/c there won’t be anything there, but it seems we MUST always learn the hard way.

      • wandakate

        You brought out several good points however most people unfortunately do not realize that JESUS is “not” the reason for the season, simply b/c He wasn’t born in December. JESUS CHRIST was born at the end of September during the fall feast of the LORD.
        It was way too cold and rainy in Dec. (in the holy land) for His birth outside. Plus the Bible tells us they were having a census and it wouldn’t have been in Dec. (too cold). The story of the birth in Luke 2 of the Bible tells us the at shepherds were OUT in the fields keeping watch over their flock by NITE. But again (TOO COLD) for them to be OUT in the fields.
        The shepherds put away the flock (animals) before the cold set in which was usually by the end of October, and they left them there until it was warmer at the dawn of spring. Therefore this had to have happened before the end of October for it to make any sense whatsoever.
        This holiday that we celebrate goes way back to the Pagan’s and Heathens. We were told in scripture to have NOTHING to do with anything that they did.
        It’s a WORLDLY holiday, it’s has PAGAN roots, it’s COMMERCIAL, it’s FAKE, it has NOTHING at all to do with JESUS or Christians.
        As for a bottom line opinion they should either allow ALL religious displays or NONE of them. And NONE sounds a lot more peaceful to me that having ALL which causes friction, bickering and discontent…just my 2 cents.

        • Eldrida Urika

          I understand that, but it is the DAY we celebrate Jesus’ birth, even though we know isn’t, it should be considered a day to rejoice His birth because it has been made to represent it. We don’t ‘care’ when he was born, we care That he was born. So rejoice and be glad, this is the day the Lord has made!!
          Blessings!

          • wandakate

            We celebrate it at the WRONG time of the year. IT’s late September, NOT December.
            I rejoice in the fact that JESUS died so that I would be able to be in the Kingdom of GOD (heaven) when my time comes.
            Dec. 25th was NOT made to celebrate His birth, it was about a Pagan goddess, NOTHING to do with JESUS. And if you don’t car when we was born, then it would be difficult to care about much else having to do with Him and His life.
            We were NEVER told to remember or celebrate His birth. He told His disciples to “remember” His death and resurrection, NOT His birth. I do care that He was born and I also care when so that I might attempt to honor Him at that time of year.
            JESUS wanted the captives set free. He told us in His word would never change. He told us NOT to participate in Pagan, Heathen celebrations and when we do these holidays, that’s what we are doing…we are DISOBEYING Him. He (JESUS) told us that when we know the TRUTH, the TRUTH will set us free (spiritually free).
            As long as people disobey they are displeasing GOD. They are NOT being obedient, and are honoring Pagan customs instead of what GOD wanted. We’re supposed to be honoring the Feast of the LORD (HIS festivals) and NOT the ones that are worldly and created by humans on earth.
            It’s a shame that you aren’t really honoring him. JESUS is NOT the reason for the season. You’ve been deceived by worldly customs and traditions and ALL of that is from the evil one (satan) b/c he loves it when we disobey GOD and go astray.

          • Eldrida Urika

            We do celebrate our Lord but it is unlikely that everyone will want to move it to the Spring when there is Easter, and in the fall there is the harvest. That leaves summer.
            No read that post again. I told you that we do not celebrate it necessarily because of his birthday, but because we want to rejoice in the Lord and our Salvation.
            In another post, you pointed it out that it would have had to be in one of the 3 seasons except winter. There is no firm proof of what season it was that I can remember. It’s been a while since I’ve read about the birth of Jesus, but if I remember correctly it was a celebration of some sort that forced them into the manger is it not? Every one that came to see him celebrated his birth. So someone, good possibility it was the Catholics *no offense” because they put some things into effect that were pretty standard for many of them too.
            It doesn’t matter WHEN we celebrate his birthday because he did not command us to, as you pointed out in one of your posts. We choose to celebrate it all at once on one chosen day, that’s how I look at it. Santa and Easter bunny is something that won’t hurt a child anything except help them be included with their friends. As long as you tell them that it is a story and help them understand how the parent wants them to, there is not intention of evil/sin just happiness and love. I don’t think Jesus would be upset as long as we help others understand about it and help them enjoy the season and focus on God as well. I’ve seen it done many times so the children do not feel left out and not included in it and that can be a real problem for some children. It was a pagan holiday, I don’t believe it is anymore, but I have someone I can ask if you would like to know – or you know Google. I’d rather have first hand information about things myself and since I do know people who celebrate the solstices already.
            There will be a second reply of an article of some information that is very enlightening. At least I found it so. Blessings!

          • Eldrida Urika

            this is from the Christianity Today site.
            Besides, our celebration of Christmas or any other Christian “holy day” goes much deeper than the date on which we observe it. The first Christmas celebration did not commemorate a date at all but a supremely important event—the appearance of Israel’s promised Messiah and Lord of the Nations.

            Early Christians did not know the specific night the angels sang or the baby cried any more than we do. A few believers tried to calculate the date, but most of these indulged in all sorts
            of speculations and differed with each other. As a result, down to the first half of the fourth century the churches attached no greater significance to December 25 than to many other dates.

            This much we know: Before there was December 25, there was January 6. As early as the second century, Christians celebrated Jesus’ appearance at the Jordan and his baptism by John on January 6. Sometime later they expanded this festival to include Christ’s appearance at birth. Christians called it Epiphany, or manifestation. So the meaning of the first Christmas was not pagan; it was a celebration of the Word manifest in flesh.

            I found this pretty informative.

    • mr goody two shoes

      The Governments of the world are there for Gods purposes to since he established them . And We have a right to Vote for Christians and a right not to vote for atheists. Its you who need to deal with that fact.

    • james blue

      There has actually been several cases where they decided to allow no displays rather than allow non Christians ones as well. Same goes for public meeting prayer

      • wandakate

        Now that’s SMART! No prayers before the meetings (public ones). A time of silence in the room is much more beneficial giving anyone there a chance to say a silent prayer to GOD before it starts, and NO public displays of Christmas (a man-made holiday) and no other displays of a satanic nature or anything else will help to bring peace and calm the storm.

    • Joseph F. Riggi

      Debra, you are truly a misguided person. The 10 Commandments posted on government building are the law of God and the law of men which this country was founded on. Without laws we would have nothing but anarchy and this country would fall back into the Middle Ages. There is no conspiracy between Christians and the Government it just the law of the land.

      • wandakate

        Man’s laws are for the most part obeyed, however GOD’s eternal never changing laws are NOT obeyed. There were 10 of them, how many do we obey? How many do we take seriously? How many of us think they are even relevant today? How many think they are just not valid and were done away with at the cross (at JESUS death). AHHH, good question. But yet people say they LOVE GOD. Are they liars?????
        JESUS said, “IF you love me, KEEP my commandments”. Which ones was He talking about when He said that? For the most part Christians only obey the ones that fit snuggly into their own lives…they pick and choose which ones are relevant and which ones are not according to how they think. There’s going to be a lot of judgment going on in the end. Our FAITH without our WORKS is DEAD…That’s written about in the book of James in the New Testament.

        • ppp777

          Do you obey all the commandments , then your a one off like Jesus .

          • wandakate

            Your sentence here doesn’t make sense.
            Do you obey all the commandments, then YOUR A ONE OFF LIKE JESUS…That last part makes no sense the way you wrote it, so I’m not sure what you’re saying.

          • ppp777

            I’m get the impression your into lordship salvation [ works ] , not faith and grace .

          • wandakate

            You need to practice writing so your sentences make sense.
            I’m GETTING the impression YOU’RE into lordship salvation (works) not faith and grace…was what you should have written.
            To reply…Have you not read the book of James in the New Testament? James plainly tells us that our FAITH without our WORKS is just “dead” faith. Means nothing without the WORKS to back it up.
            We ARE “saved” by GOD’s grace, however we will be “judged” by our WORKS.
            In Revelation we read what JESUS said (in the red print), His own words…”Behold I am coming quickly and my reward is with me, to give to everyone according to his WORKS shall be.” So, JESUS is telling us that our WORKS does matter to Him. It has nothing to do with LORD-ship salvation. Our WORKS alone doesn’t bring us salvation, but neither does just our faith. It’s a combination of the two of them, and that is the key…

            SAVED BY GRACE, JUDGED BY WORKS!!!

          • ppp777

            I was right , you do believe in works salvation , thank you for clarifying that for me .

          • wandakate

            I haven’t clarified ANYTHING for you. YOU are so mistaken. NOTHING that I wrote above clarifies that whatsoever. First you need writing skills and second you need to work on your comprehension skills b/c you didn’t at all understand what I wrote in that comment. I was saying what the Bible tells us, not my own opinion of what it says.
            Apparently YOU don’t know much if anything about the scriptures which may be why you are saying what you are saying…I plainly said that we are saved by GRACE, “but” we will be (according to scripture) JUDGED by our WORKS!!!
            If that’s too hard for you to understand then maybe you should stop reading what I write to ease your burden.

          • ppp777

            Your sarcasm is not going to change the fact you believe in works salvation , Jesus did some of it you do the rest , it is plain and simple in your posts .

          • wandakate

            No sarcasm intended, that’s just how you have perceived it. You think what you will, it’s NOT of the least bit of importance to me. I am here to please GOD, not man.

          • ppp777

            The road to hell is paved with good intentions .

          • wandakate

            When I am telling people what the Bible has written in it that isn’t paving a road to hell, that is paving it in the other direction. You must be a troll since you’re right on top of all this and so persistent. My intentions are fine and “only” GOD knows the intentions of my heart and not you. So don’t judge, least you will be judged in the same manner. GOODNITE!

          • ppp777

            I am judging by what is coming out of your own mouth [ so to speak ] , the gospel is clear , and remember your responding just as quick as me .

          • wandakate

            You are calling GOD and scripture (the book of JAMES) a liar. James plainly tells us that our faith and faith ALONE do NOT save us. He says that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD!
            He said, “Can your faith alone save you?, NO it can not.”
            I think I’ll believe what I am reading in my Bible and not any human mortal being such as yourself…
            I have already told you that I agree Grace is a free gift, and NOT faith. Faith is something that we MUST choose. I have already said that…WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE, BUT WE WILL BE JUDGED BY OUR WORKS. You seem to have a big problem with the word WORKS.
            You seem to love the grace and faith part and want to discard the rest of it.
            It’s a package deal…faith and works = salvation!

          • Eldrida Urika

            No, I disagree. We don’t exactly choose it, but we come to have it by knowing that God will do everything he said he would do. Believing in the Lord is only the beginning of Faith. Our Faith is one of the trials we go through to strengthen your faith, or it can change your faith into questioning. It grows with each of us as we grow in Christ, so we grow in Spirit and our Faith is made stronger every time we rely on God to be our guide, to be our help in times of trial or tribulation. The stronger our Faith, the less likely you will leave Jesus. Love too, but our faith in his ability to. show us that he can provide for us when we believe and have faith that his word is true. I guess it’s the only thing that is necessary to be in every place you want to be in: believing that he is real and he shows us that it is true. That line in the song. “I proved him o’er and o’er.” Anything is possible with God so if you believe in God and that he sent his son to die for our sins, and to have even a glimmer of hope in that what we say is true, then remember how necessary to focus on your love of God/Jesus and your belief, if you want him to provide something for you. He will do it, if you ask believing and of course that it isn’t something bad in any way, and he knows what will happen already, You will receive it – he will make a way for you. He has never failed me yet. Not once. Praise the Lord!!
            Blessings!

          • ppp777

            You are wrong [ very wrong ] , listen let me give you a word of advice , if you see countless scriptures telling you something clear as the nose on your face and one single bit of scripture seemably contradicting that , check that one bit of scripture for context and what the writer is actually saying , it is not referring to your righteousness with God but with man , Abraham was saved along time ago before the works with Isaac and the prostitute , works are great , but please don’t rely on them for salvation otherwise Christ’s work on the cross was a waste of time , and that is unthinkable .

          • wandakate

            Apparently you’re not reading everything or you’re just NOT comprehending what I have written thus far.
            WE are saved by GOD’s grace, BUT judged by our works…
            I have already written that we DO NOT earn our salvation, it is GOD’s free gift to us, but we do WORK “after” we are saved in order to please Him and show Him we are serious. He wanted us to work for the coming Kingdom.
            What was He telling His disciples when we told them…Go ye there and teach all nations preaching the gospel, and baptizing them in the name of the FATHER, the SON, and the HOLY SPIRIT. Teaching them to observe ALL these things whatsoever I have commanded you and low I am with you always, even to the end of the age (the age of man)…
            Those were JESUS instructions for them to “WORK”, not b/c they needed to earn their salvation, but b/c they had WORK to do for the coming Kingdom of GOD.
            So STOP accusing me of relying on my salvation through my works, NOT SO…

            Do you know why JESUS died on the cross?????
            Did you see the movie, Passion of the CHRIST?????
            Didn’t you know that JESUS prayed in the garden to His FATHER in Heaven to not do that to Him, but if He was going to anyway JESUS said, “Thy will be done”.
            He did NOT go to the cross to die willingly…

            He died so that people who believed in Him would be able to have everlasting life in Heaven (the coming Kingdom of GOD on earth), that’s why.
            Unless we OBEY the LORD, we are still sinners.
            SIN is the transgression of the law!!!

            IF you don’t know all of this then you need to be studying your bible (if you have one)l.

          • ppp777

            Seems I’m casting pearl before swine , and the latter part of that really proves that .” no one takes my life I give my life willingly ” for example .,I say again your a lord salvationist .

          • wandakate

            Say what you will, enjoy yourself. You’re nic-picking apparently just to have something to do.
            I’m telling you what the Bible says. And why did He say that no one takes my life, I give My life willingly? Simply b/c He was pleasing the FATHER GOD. His life was one of “obedience” to the FATHER. JESUS said, “I can do NOTHING, without the FATHER who sent me.” While praying in the garden to the FATHER who was in Heaven
            He said, “IF it be your will, take this cup of suffering from me, but if not, THY WILL BE DONE”. JESUS was at the mercy of the FATHER GOD, and was praying to HIM. He was willing to do whatever GOD wanted Him to do and GOD did what He did so that JESUS could provide a way for us to be with Him wherever He will be for eternity.
            If you don’t want the TRUTH and to know how was (according to scripture) then stop commenting. Because the way it’s going, you’re not accomplishing anything.

          • ppp777

            You simply won’t listen will you [ or search ] , no one in their right mind would go through what he went through un less he was willing for our sake , he could of said at any time ” to hell with them I’m going back to my father , he has no obligation towards us , and what could the father do ? , unless Jesus is not God in the flesh , he is co equal in power , but of course he did it willingly for our sakes pain every penny , but of course your insisting by what you believe that that is not true , you are adding to it and that is not [ I repeat ] not the gospel , the commandments part of James are referring to the Jews that were still relying on the law [ like people like you ] to keep their salvation , and that’s an old story .

          • wandakate

            First of all I don’t NEED to listen to you b/c it’s apparent that YOU do NOT know one iota about what you are talking about. Secondly JESUS (YESHUA-His real name) would NEVER say a curse word (as you printed here). Is JESUS, GOD in the flesh????? You tell me. He went to the garden to pray to the FATHER GOD. Would He be going there to pay to Himself?????
            Now that doesn’t really make any sense does it?

            Did you bother to read Matthew 26:39? What did it say?
            “HE WENT A LITTLE FATHER (into the garden) AND FELL ON HIS FACE, AND PRAYED, SAYING, O MY FATHER, IF IT IS POSSIBLE, LET THIS CUP PASS FROM ME; NEVERTHELESS, NOT AS I WILL, BUT AS YOU WILL.” (clearly NOT JESUS idea at all).
            THEN in verse 42…AGAIN, A SECOND TIME, HE WENT AWAY AND PRAYED, SAYING, “OH MY FATHER, IF THIS CUP CANNOT PASS AWAY FROM ME UNLESS I DRINK IT (meaning go through with it), YOUR WILL BE DONE”. (Praying twice that GOD (the FATHER would not make Him do this.)
            Mark’s account of this says…MARK 14:35-36…HE WENT A LITTLE FATHER, AND PRAYED THAT IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, THE HOUR MIGHT PASS FROM HIM (He clearly did NOT want to do this-go to the cross), AND HE SAID, “ABBA, FATHER, ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE FOR YOU, TAKE THIS CUP (suffering and death) AWAY FROM ME; NEVERTHELESS, NOT WHAT I WILL, BUT WHAT YOU WILL.”(Being in total submission to the FATHER.)
            Luke says almost the same thing…Luke 22:42…FATHER, IF IT IS YOUR WILL, TAKE THIS CUP AWAY FROM ME; NEVERTHELESS NOT MY WILL, BUT YOURS BE DONE.”
            The book of John records NOTHING about the prayer in the garden.
            Anybody can see if they can understand that JESUS did NOT want to do this…He didn’t want to suffer all of what He suffered of His own accord. He didn’t want to leave the earth and die. It was ALL b/c of the will of the FATHER GOD up in Heaven and His “obedience” to the FATHER, through His respect for what the FATHER wanted, as He said, “Not my will but thy will be done.” It was ALL about what GOD has planned in advance for the SON, so that we might enjoy a spiritual existence in the Kingdom of GOD (which will be on earth).
            GOD was the FATHER
            JESUS was the earthly Son (in the flesh) and
            The HOLY SPIRIT was the comforter that would come and lead us into all truth.
            I REST MY CASE…

          • ppp777

            Your resting no case at all apart from what is in your own twisted mind , and don’t be teaching your grand mother to suck eggs your making yourself look a fool , I did not even hint Jesus wanted to die [ if you bothered reading my post ] , and don’t pretend you can speak Hebrew , ” there is no other name under heaven where man can be saved , that name is Christ Jesus ” , shall I repeat his name for you ? [ Jesus ] not your [ so called ] Hebrew , and be careful invoking the holy spirit all the time , that can be a dangerous activity , especially with someone like your , a lordship salvationist .

          • wandakate

            I am back, my post simply repeat what the Bible has told us and apparently you don’t know what it says on this topic. You are accusing without anything solid to back it up. If you need proof of where these verses come from then that’s fine. Did JESUS not say what I said that He said? Were my words wrong?????

          • Eldrida Urika

            Wandakate, I will apologize for the length before I begin.
            We agree on a lot of things, and I’ve had a few bad days where I have done the same thing. We must present our best when we are representing Jesus, right? So we also have to think of how to reach others to join us in worshiping the Lord, and be careful about how we speak to others.
            Honey your were very critical of something that isn’t really something that non believers know necessary either. We need to teach the Good News to the people here, not put a stumbleblock for them.
            I know that you are trying to teach others about their writing skills, but to be honest, this isn’t the place. There is no shame in not knowing how to write, and with the immigrants in our country, we have to appreciate anyone who tries to adapt here, right?
            I don’t mean to be rudely critical, you know that I hope.
            I have had a bad day here and been rude to others not that long ago, I’m ashamed to say.
            So I think I kind of recognize a kindred spirit in that way. Maybe try and ‘see’ your tone, from someone elses eyes so to speak. I actually do write myself but only for myself so far. Hence the length.
            I find it can be hard to be a light when I am not feeling like a light, and that I can make it obvious when I write here. If anyone is disrespectful, I am more likely to snarl back, instead of leaving with a prayer for them. But we have to stop our flesh from having it’s way, right? We have to shine our lights for Jesus at all times. We represent him here and we have to remember that at all times too.
            As you can see below, your remark was taken as sarcasm. Do you think anything that Jesus would say would sound sarcastic?
            Please don’t misunderstand, I like to discuss things here, but if I kept pointing out things they spelled, or said badly, the discussion would end before it started, or the other person would be more aggressive in the discussion. Natural human reaction, right? No one likes being criticized, and when it is by a stranger, it’s bound to insult them depending on how and when it is said. We have no way to PM so we can’t do it personally, so it just has to be ignored and we can usually use our brain to figure out what is trying to be said if we give it a try. Not only the other posters here, but don’t forget that a comment board should be a place of discussions and trading of information and in this case, information learned is not just about our God, we can still learn it. My kid used to say “Know your enemy” but it is a reasonable rule of thumb when you think about it.
            I like to help people with things like that too, so I went through it here too. The best thing we can do is allow for people to not be better educated than they are. We don’t know their background for one thing and we must encourage more skills, but when it is a good venue to do it.
            So would it be better if I posted more than one reply instead of one longer one?
            God Bless you!

          • wandakate

            Very enlightening…and I read it all and it makes sense. I ( like you said you have done) just got aggravated b/c it was hard to read what that person wrote. And you are right about trying to show people JESUS at all times, I agree.
            I will admit I am not perfect, but I do honestly believe I am a work in progress that the LORD has started in me.
            I understand that you meant well here so no problem. Actually Christians are supposed to support one another and confide in one another or at least admit their mistakes and move on. I am striving to do that, move on, and we are supposed to keep one another on our tippy toes. After all the Bible tells us that…we are our brother’s keeper.

          • Eldrida Urika

            I guess technically, I was “rebuking” you for the sin of what you ‘said’ but when I rebuke any brethren I like to keep it more private than this, but I wanted to help you see it in a timely manner. I tried to be very careful the way I said it. Did I achieve my purpose? 😀
            No one is perfect, and TBH we are all a work in progress, Wandakate. We are of flesh and cannot be perfect until our spirit is taken up to the cloud with Jesus. Our flesh cannot go to Heaven, it is our Earthy being. Only our spirits can be raised up at that time.
            We are to strive to be as Perfect as we can, as often as we can, but we will never truly be Holy until then either. Our flesh ruins our chances, but when we try to be Perfect and Holy, it is acknowledged by Jesus and I believe that would be in your Life Book, as would fruit of the Spirit that you have ‘acquired’, as would our behavior and he can be much more precise about things in our lives than us.
            Can you imagine? Every bad thing that you have done is written down until you repent for them, and stop doing them.
            But there would be all the good things that you have done through your life, even beyond the time of your sins being forgiven. Bad things are forgotten by God if we pray for forgiveness. Good things are supposed to be with us always.
            God bless!!

          • wandakate

            Well said, and as for the repenting part, I have confessed ALL sins, I have repented of them, and I focus on forsaking ALL of them and am getting better at that which is making satan very angry I’m sure, but I could care less. He’s always been up to lying , cheating, stealing and no good. JESUS said He was the father of all lies. I strive daily to improve.
            I am glad you said that it’s our SPIRIT that goes on at our death which is correct. Most Christians have been told that their “soul” leaves their body at their death and goes on , either to heaven or hell at that time, which is very far from the truth of the word. The scriptures nowhere tell us that the “soul” goes anywhere. The coming Kingdom of GOD is a “spiritual” Kingdom, it’s NOT physical.
            We will be immortal and incorruptible at that time. Right now we are mortal and we are corrupt souls (people).
            The spirit leaves the body at death and will be preserved until the Glorious appearing of JESUS in the clouds and at that time the spirits of ALL of the dead saints will supernaturally rejoin their bodies (souls) and go then to be with the LORD in the air, and all of those who were still on the earth at that time will also “rise up” and join the ones who “arose” from their graves. That will be a glorious day when we have obtained victory in JESUS, our Savior forever.

          • Eldrida Urika

            What exactly do you mean by Works WandaKate?

          • wandakate

            WORKS for the Kingdom of GOD. Putting forth our time, talent, resources/money to advance the coming Kingdom. We are commanded to work, we are obligated to do so.
            We don’t just get saved and then sit back and say to ourselves, “OK this is good, and I have nothing to do but wait on JESUS to come and get me”.
            JESUS said, “I am working and my FATHER is also working”.
            and as I wrote earlier in James it tells us that Faith without Works is DEAD!
            And again JESUS said in Revelation, “My reward is with me to give to each according to his WORKS!

            We are to be obedient, we are to strive to please Him, He gave His life so that you and I could go to the coming Kingdom of GOD which is going to be on earth.
            We are to focus on His works and not just on our own lives and what we want . We aren’t to be selfish, but are to volunteer and care about others as much as we are physically able to do so.

            HERE is something that I memorized years ago…
            Knowing that countless people grope in darkness and giving attention to HIS commands, I assert my allegiance to JESUS CHRIST, to HIS church and it’s activities.
            Attempting with GOD’s help to, abide in HIM through prayer, advance in wisdom by Bible study, to acknowledge my stewardship of time, money and personality, to adorn myself with good WORKS, and to accept the challenge of the great commission.
            Working NOT for our own selves, but working the HIM and HIS coming Kingdom…Work to please the LORD. Ant there is “nothing” wrong with doing this.
            And again…WE DO NOT WORK IN ORDER TO EARN SALVATION, WE WORK B/C WE ARE SAVED ALREADY AND WANT TO PLEASE THE LORD, period!!!

          • ppp777

            Works has nothing to do with salvation , that is a separate issue altogether , ” sirs how shall I be save ” answer ” believe upon the lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved ” , scripture is quite clear .

          • Eldrida Urika

            Help me understand what you mean by saying that, ok? I’ve never heard someone express it quite like that.
            I believe it never hurts to hear another view to compare to your own, right?
            I’d love to know if you don’t mind telling me.
            If you have scripture references I’d appreciate that, otherwise I have to work out where in the bible it is.
            Blessings!

          • Eldrida Urika

            We will know them by their fruits is also pointed out in the bible. But many people do not even know what those fruits are that are in Galatians 5:22-23
            22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
            23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

            Fruit is also something we should show others for Jesus. Living with those attributes is part of being Christ-like and since we represent Christ Jesus here on earth, we should know what they are and be sure to behaving in a way that reflects Jesus’ behavior.
            There are many things that we see in the N.T. that we must do, but many of them can be subtle if you do not know to look for them.

            Telling us to be a light that will shine and bring others to His church, and bring Glory to God. It could mean a variety of things, but I have always believed that it refers to doing what we used to call “good deeds”,

            When we are showing love, and caring and compassion for another person, without holding it back as we know God will protect us. There are times when we as Christians should go out of our way to help another person, which Jesus would want, and your behavior will be seen by others, and it will put the church is a good light, and be a good representation of our Lord Jesus.
            Our behavior is an important part of our Christianity, actually.
            If you look at it you could recognize how much our behavior really does affect the church. Too many Christians seem to be trying to spread or act hateful and they are more interesting than those of us who are just ‘regular Christians’, who have followed Jesus and now we are expected to be hateful like the others. People are turning away from church because of the apparent hatred those Christians show to the world. It has become what people think when they think about Christians often. Those of us who are not really wanting the attention need to stand up for our views to the public to let them know that there is a different kind of Christian and people won’t necessarily turn away from us. We need to do something before it’s too late, IMHO Blessings sorry for the length!

        • Eldrida Urika

          His commandments were to love the Lord our God, with all our hearts, with all our soul, with all our mind and with all our strength. The second is like it: love each other as He has loved us.
          Those are the 2 commandments and Jesus said in the scriptures that the second commandment “covered” any other commandment before he gave us those two. He called them “new” commandments because he had just been given all authority on Earth by his father, so they were “his commandments” and because God had given the same ones before. But he also said that love covers a multitude of sin.

          • wandakate

            When JESUS gave the two “new” commandments He did NOT take away the other 10 of them.
            Can we murder, is that okay, commit adultery, is that okay, or steal what is not ours, is that acceptable?
            ALL of our commandments are still relevant today. They are valid, they are NOT obsolete. Nowhere did JESUS tell us that He was taking the 10 Commandments away.
            They were written with the finger of GOD of 2 tablets of stone. They were placed in the Ark of the Covenant for ALL time, for 1,000 generations therefore since it’s NOT been that long they still matter to GOD.
            Man doesn’t like them, and hates the word “law” b/c man doesn’t want to obey GOD. Man wants to make his own laws, and his own commandments and place GOD on the back burner.
            The 10 Commandments can be obeyed, but people don’t like any infringement in their lives, no burdens, nothing to inconvenience them, nothing that won’t fit snugly into their lives. The 4th one for instance gets in peoples’ way big time, b/c they love their Saturday (the Sabbath Day) and they do not want to give it up to rest and do good which was what GOD expected and commanded them to do…
            Therefore they have been told that they are invalid and were done away with at the cross (when JESUS died), which is pure HOGWASH!!! Oh the truth does hurt, doesn’t it and people don’t above all want any truth.

          • wandakate

            NOT QUITE…JESUS “never” took away ALL 10 and only replaced them with 2. That’s man gospel and it does sound appealing and easy, but there is NO solid truth to it sorry to say.

          • Eldrida Urika

            I have to find a few scriptures then I’ll be back. I didn’t want you to think I wasn’t going to answer at all. I just have a full schedule right now. I will help you to understand and it from scriptures and you will see what I mean I expect. I would never ever speak against God’s Word, wandakate, never, I may understand things differently because of my teachers but I will never misrepresent my Lord Jesus Christ. To me it is like blasphemy to make our God into anything that isn’t from the text.
            First I can help a bit with the 2 in 10 theme. The First 4 commandments are about loving God with all our hearts and all our souls, with all our minds, with all our strength. That is the first commandment from Jesus.
            The other commandments are told by Jesus to be comprehended as the second commandment to love each other as he has loved us, in scripture, but I have lost the notes I made about it and have to find the time to locate them again. But it is in the scriptures in Red. I will try to find it quick quick, ok?
            It’s about the Love he commands us to have should stop the other sins from happening in the first place. Think about the last 6 and put love into the mixture and it changes. Love is what helps us to stop sinning. Our love for Jesus.
            There are some sin that he pointed out but it was the Adultery and Murder I think. and that was when he told them that any other commands were comprehended in the second commandment.
            I will find it as soon as I can.
            It’s not that sins are not sins, just that love is why we desire not to sin, not to hurt. Having a lot of love in your life Jesus said would cover a multitude of sin as well.
            I’ll come back here to post it when I find it, Ok?
            God bless!

    • wandakate

      For the towns that oppose ALL of these different religious opinions I would suggest that they allow NOTHING on the property or in the city parks. No displays, no statues of any kind and that will solve the entire issue.

    • Eldrida Urika

      So when other religions celebrate theirs on their own dates, that’s ok? It’s just Christianity that is being objected to here?
      Did you realize that the 2 religions, Christians and Jews, celebrate a holiday in Dec. but the reason there are not other displays is simply that no others celebrate during that time. That’s why it is just the 2, no one else wanted it and were happy to have their own celebrations at the time that they want to.
      Find something else to complain about because this is nothing about discrimination IN ANY Way.

      • wandakate

        If the “other” religions didn’t want to celebrate anything else in Dec. than that’s fine.
        JESUS wasn’t born on Dec. 25th anyway, and many people know that. He was actually born at the Fall Feast of the LORD at the end of September. Christmas is a man-made holiday. It’s very commercial, it’s very worldly, it’s has Pagan/Heathen roots and has “nothing” at all to do with JESUS birth. It was about a Pagan goddess and JESUS told us NOT wo be worshipping or doing anything that the Pagans or the Heathens were doing.
        Furthermore, JESUS actually “never” commanded us to celebrate His birthday. He specifically told His disciples that they were to take the LORD’s supper and celebrate His death and His resurrection, but NOT His birthday.
        The story in the Bible in Luke 2 of the birth is a TRUE story, however unfortunately modern man celebrates it on the WRONG date b/c the Emperor Constantine invented that day in order to combine the beliefs of the Pagans with the Christians of that day and age, in order to increase attendance in the HRCC. SO, it’s all fake and today it’s still celebrated on Dec. 25th b/c it’s merely tradition and nothing else. We should want to obey the LORD and care about what He wanted or didn’t want. JESUS had to be born before the animals were put away in the barns and that happened at the end of October. It was too cold in the Holy Land for Mary and Joseph to be traveling during the cold wet months of Dec.
        They were also taking a census during the time of His birth and that wouldn’t have been done in December either thus too cold…
        Just food for thought b/c I used to celebrate ALL of our worldly holidays but not now b/c I found the truth by studying and learning and praying for wisdom from above. The Bible tells us that when we have learned the TRUTH, the TRUTH will set us free (spiritually free). People are deceived and in bondage instead of knowing and doing what is right and what is the truth…JESUS warned in Matthew that we would be deceived. Satan comes to kill, steal and destroy the truth of the word of GOD, and our holidays are just a small example of his evil works.

  • Steven Burke

    How exactly is this offensive? Is it the wrong religion?

    • Eldrida Urika

      People have thought of Satan as an Evil entity for centuries and Christians in particular have no patience or interest of participating in the evil of the world .
      Because there is a pagan symbol and hateful words that are directly aimed at Christianity, People object to his display.
      The image of Satan as the devil and as Evil, overwhelms what they want to stand for because of the belief of evil. It’s not just Christians who believe that Satan is Evil.
      I think they should use a different symbol for rebellion so people do not look at it and immediately think of an Evil thing called Satan.
      Satanists want to rebel against others religious beliefs and feel that because Lucifer was a rebellious angel it had made him into someone who loves evil and wants us to do evil and go to hell with him. Oh boy! Eternal torment so I can be with … Satan? No it’s not my idea of a good time.
      I just think they picked the wrong name as people will think negatively about the one they use. Surely James Dean could still be used if they don’t want to use anyone alive to be an example of rebellion or until they pick another rebel as a symbol?
      There will always be haters, to make things more difficult than they have to be, from my experience.

      • wandakate

        The bottom line is that there is NO commonality between anything good and anything evil.
        The truth about life is…LIFE IS A SPIRITUAL BATTLE BETWEEN THE FORCES OF GOOD AND THE FORCES OF EVIL, and in the end of it ALL, evil will lose and those who do evil will be losers.

  • ZappaSaid88

    “Smith put up a similar Satanic pentagram in Boca Raton last year, but it was repeatedly vandalized and knocked down.”

    “I will take the responsibility for taking the sledgehammer and knocking it down,” he told CBS12. “I think this is reprehensible. I think it’s an insult to our city.”

    Poor Christians, just can’t seem to turn that other cheek.

    • Eldrida Urika

      Actually lots of us can and do, but some won’t and it is the individual who can’t turn the other cheek, not all of the Christians. I’ve certainly experienced having to turn the other cheek because someone disagreed with my belief so I do know about how it feels when we do that.
      It feels awesome! I found joy because I knew it was the right thing to do. Longsuffering others bad behavior. It did not feel like a burden after I did too.

      This is a bad example of discrimination actually. There was nothing that said only those 2 religions can put displays, it was because the other religions celebrate at a different time, not because they were refused.

      It wouldn’t be much of a deal at all if the Satanists had chosen an icon that is known to be the symbol of evil for people of religions around the world, as well as people who do not follow the bible. for the majority of people, it is the reason they take precautions to avoid the devil, in their lives.

      I just think they should consider what people think initially, because it is important to make a good first impression – it gives people a kind of base to show who we are, and then it changes if it has a reason, but it is supposed to be that first impression that makes a difference, even if it not something either of the people are aware of.

      I don’t agree with their beliefs, but I try to be honest with everyone and I have been told that I often surprise people with how I say things differently so it is seen from a different mindset. I like helping people and this is all part of that for me.

  • james blue

    What’s the issue here?

  • But WHY is there an open display of Satanism in the first place?

    Could it have something to do with the First Commandment-violating, polytheism-enabling First Amendment? Could it have something to do with the constitutional framers’ establishment of religion? Yes, you read that correctly:

    “…Although the First Amendment does not allow for establishing one religion over another, by eliminating Christianity as the federal government’s religion of choice (achieved by Article 6’s interdiction against Christian test oaths), Amendment 1 authorized equality for all non-Christian and even antichristian religions. When the Constitution failed to recognize Christian monotheism, it allowed Amendment 1 to fill the void by authorizing pagan polytheism.

    “Amendment 1 did exactly what the framers proclaimed it could not do: it prohibited the exercise of monotheistic Christianity (except within the confines of its church buildings) and established polytheism in its place. This explains the government’s double standard regarding Christian and non-Christian religions. For example, court participants entering the United States District Court of Appeals for the Middle District of Alabama must walk by a statue of Themis, the Greek goddess of justice. And yet, on November 18, 2002, this very court ruled that Judge Roy Moore’s Ten Commandments Monument violated the First Amendment’s Establishment Clause. Despite many Christians’ protests against this hypocrisy, it was in keeping with the inevitable repercussions of the First Amendment.

    “…Christians hang their religious hat on Amendment 1, as if some great moral principle is carved therein. They have gotten so caught up in the battle over the misuse of the Establishment Clause – the freedom from religion – that they have overlooked the ungodliness intrinsic in the Free Exercise Clause – the freedom of religion….”

    For more, see Chapter 11 “Amendment 1: Government-Sanctioned Polytheism” of free online book “Bible Law vs. the United States Constitution: The Christian Perspective.” Click on my name, then our website. Go to our Online Books page, click on the top entry, and scroll down to Chapter 11.

    Then find out how much you really know about the Constitution as compared to the Bible. Take our 10-question Constitution Survey in the right-hand sidebar and receive a complimentary copy of a book that examines the Constitution by the Bible.

  • peanut butter

    If his pentagram says “I kneel before no gods”, why is he invoking all of these mythical gods, along with the truth of Christ? Because he is a rabble rouser, just like barry Obama. Good for nothing, except causing trouble.

  • Get a group of non-“Satanists” to put up the largest possible Nativity to counter the ugliness of this “belief.”

  • Tonya Elise

    First off. Atheism is not Satanism … the 2 are completely different .

  • MarMac2768

    I am a Baptist pastor and I am totally against what this guy is going to do. However, to take a sledgehammer to it is just playing into his “game”. It will get widespread coverage in the media and he will be portrayed as an “oppressed person” and the churches will be viewed as opponents of the First Amendment. I think that the Christians ought to SPEAK out against it and let the guy do his “thing”. Leave his “art” alone. People will start ignoring it and him.

  • LuJr75

    Then they ask “why?” after being severely hit by a devastating hurricane.

    • Eldrida Urika

      umm I’m sorry I am confused by your comment. was it posted to the wrong article perhaps?

  • R Razor

    life is too good to not believe n ones self, or a spirit, the truth will unfold, it takes longer to prove god does not exist and noone has that much time!

  • R Razor

    somthing changes us all weather we like it or not but you are a free spirit, get it or waste your time, or others trying to prove it wrong and children need somthing to believe in,,,, miracles happen with or without atesist, its ok you soul,