Community Supports Christian Flag Flying Outside Public School Following Atheist Complaint

LARUE, Texas — A number of residents in the LaRue, Texas area attended a school board meeting on Thursday to show support for a Christian flag that is flying outside of a public school after one of the most conspicuous professing atheist organizations lodged a complaint.

According to local television station KLTV, James Young, the superintendent of the LaPoynor Independent School District, presented a letter from the Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) during the meeting.

In the correspondence, the organization contends that a Christian flag flying outside of LaPoynor High School violates the Establishment Clause of the U.S. Constitution, which reads, “Congress shall make no law respecting the Establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” FFRF also states that it was improper for the school district to promote the national “See You at the Pole” student prayer day on its Facebook page.

It appears that the flag was flown to coincide with the “See You at the Pole” event, but it is unclear whether students raised the flag or if school officials did so.

“The district’s practice of displaying the Christian flag on school grounds and promoting religious events online has an exclusionary effect, turning non-Christian and non-believing students into outsiders,” FFRF’s letter read. “The district should be particularly mindful of being inclusive of minority religions and nonreligious people given that 44% of younger Americans … are non-Christian.”

It asked that the flag be removed.

“The district must immediately remove the Christian flag from school grounds. In addition, the district must ensure that its staff members are not organizing, promoting or participating in religious events while acting in their official capacities…,” FFRF wrote.

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On Wednesday, an unspecified number of students flew Christian flags from their vehicles as a show of support for the presence of the flag. Members of the community then turned out for the school board meeting the following night. KLTV described the gathering as a “large crowd.”

“The Freedom From Religion organization really has a distorted and inaccurate view of the separation of Church and State in the First Amendment,” one attendee stated. “Matter of fact, I’d like to say that their viewpoint is probably void and alien to that of our founding fathers.”

Young asked any opposed to the presence of the flag to stand, but none did.

The district says that the flag will stay as it continues to deliberate the matter.

“We are in the process of reviewing the concerns addressed in the correspondence and will take any action deemed necessary,” it said in a statement prior to the meeting. “LaPoynor ISD is committed to achieving an appropriate balance between permissible religious expression and the obligation to maintain neutrality in its policies and practices.”

As previously reported, in 1828, just 52 years after the nation’s founding, Noah Webster, known as the Father of American Scholarship and Education, wrote, “In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government, ought to be instructed. … No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.” – Tyler, Longview, Jacksonville |ETX News

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  • Michael C

    Why is it necessary for a non-religious, public school that is open for all students of any or no faith to wave a Christian flag?

    Why is this necessary?

    To assert a position of Christian dominance?

    • Vince

      That’s the paranoid view of reality.

      People who are secure in their own skins don’t think that way, obsessing about “power” and “dominance” and “oppression” and “privilege.” They get on with their own lives.

      • james blue

        Would you be okay with the school flying an Islamic flag?

        • Jerome Horwitz

          Does it matter what Vince thinks? This is not about him.

          1) You are pretty despicable to compare the Christian flag to the ISIS and Nazi flags. If I were the mod here, that would have earned you an immediate ban.

          2) I have not heard of any public school flying such flags, have you? Of course not. That’s why the argument is bolshevik.

          • james blue

            Yes it matter what Vince thinks, this is the opinion section(comment)

            1) where did I do that? Plus thought you were the proponent of “free speech”…Apparently not.

            2) Perhaps that would explain why groups like FFRF seem to only go after Christians, because the others are not doing it. Aren’t you always complaining about Muslims forcing sharia?

          • Jerome Horwitz

            Regardless you are NOT a mod

            For which you should be grateful.

            We’re done here.

          • james blue

            We can only hope

      • Michael C

        That’s the paranoid view of reality.

        I’ve given you the opportunity to explain it to me.

        Do some Christians want to fly a Christian flag at a public (non-Christian) school to assert their dominance or is there a different reason?

        If there is a different explanation, now’s your chance to explain it to me.

    • NCOriolesFan

      Why don’t you purpose flying the Islamic State (ISIS) flag instead.

      • Michael C

        Why don’t you purpose flying the Islamic State (ISIS) flag instead.

        I don’t understand what you’re attempting to say. Perhaps you could word it a different way.

    • Eldrida Urika

      No Michael it was for a specific Student’s event at the school.
      The article say that it was actually for “see you at the pole day”. (which was illegally advertised on the Church site)? I got the impression that “see you at the pole day” was the only reason it was flying at that time. If they deliberate long enough, it won’t matter until next year for “See you at the Pole day”.
      It is not about Christian dominance it is just an annual event in a lot of States where the students of schools have a day that they all meet at the flag pole at a certain date and time, and they all pray together. I understand it happens once a year. It is an event that the students put on and anyone who is not interested in it can ignore it. If they feel left out, they have the choice to join them. Praying does not have to be more than asking the Lord or another belief to help the nation through rough times. There does not have to be anything that a non-believer should find offensive if they decide they want to join in, and I expect they are welcome. I got the impression from the various articles I’ve read about “see you at the pole day” was totally voluntary and there is obviously a cafeteria in the school to avoid all sight or direct knowledge of, so it can not offend. If they have a place that is comfortable and away from something (event) going on, they should have to find a better case than that. Being around something like this is a personal choice and if your personal choice is not to attend, then it only stands to reason that you should stay away from that event so you can’t be offended.

      • Michael C

        “See You at the Pole” does not violate the Constitution. A public school waving a Christian flag does. …even if it was raised by the students and not the faculty. …even if it’s only for one day.

        Also, if you read the article, you’ll see that “[t]he district says that the flag will stay as it continues to deliberate the matter.” It’s been up almost a month and they have no intention of taking it down.

        Perhaps you could explain to me why Christians would want a public school to waive a Christian flag. To me, it’s as if they’re claiming the school for their religion. Is this a fair assessment of the thought process behind this sort of action?

        • Eldrida Urika

          It should be only one day the flag is up then, logically.
          If it is the students that start and control everything that happens on their school property that harms no one, I believe.
          I’m sorry I did read it but I have a bad memory sometimes, so I guess I mis-remembered.
          If they are using the FFRF complaint as a basis for flying it for this long when it would normally be taken down before this? That’s not a reasonable reaction to the matter.

          I think traditions are important to Countries like the USA and Canada. but…

          Michael C., I am very confused about why the Christians that try to keep Christianity in the Government. Our behavior should be what brings others to the Lord, not displays that show Christian beliefs.

          But I also think that the private Christians have to stand up for themselves by putting some of these things on their own properties. Let them take the Church out of the Government and Lets stand up for Jesus with our own property. The point is, if someone is upset about the removal of these things, then why aren’t those things or similar that have been removed not been replaced by something Christian on their own properties. If every Christian that is upset about this problem in one specific area, make something on their private property and stop complaining about it. That would reach a heck of a lot more people than just displaying things at a Government building. The more ‘displays’ on private property the better the ability to pass on our message.
          Besides Complaining won’t do a darned thing, and more displays will be seen by more people.
          I seem to be picking your posts to make a point instead of someone who is not acting well, as you do. Sorry. I am going off and I will attempt to watch for that when I return.
          I hope I answered your question. Blessings!

          • Netizen_James

            As Thomas Jefferson said: ” Reason and experiment have been indulged, and error has fled before them. It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself. ” (From ‘Notes on the State of Virginia’)

            Only lame religions with no Truth them need the backing and support of government institutions. Real believers need no support from worldly civil institutions, and recognize that Justice prohibits government from promoting some religions as ‘more equal’ than others.

          • Lark.62

            Yes. Government property and authority cannot be used to promote religious belief. -> So that individuals have the freedom to choose their own beliefs.

            Christian symbols on personal property are completely fine. Likewise, student led “see you at the pole” prayers and informal religious discussion and religious clubs are all fine. However, govt employees cannot encourage or discourage student religious activity. This means the school cannot promote “See you at the pole,” nor block it.

          • Eldrida Urika

            Yes. Government property and authority cannot be used to promote
            religious belief. -> So that individuals have the freedom to choose
            their own beliefs.

            So they think that having any choice pointed out by the government will influence people, or is it more that the other religions are offended by them?

            So it isn’t about the flag, so much as the School site having a photo advertising it?
            The flag does not promote it, and if left alone I think this flag would have been taken down before now. Instead of just pulling it off their site, now there is a tug-a- war because of a flag?
            I’m too old for this. It just seems too petty to be worth arguing about at all. The site promoting it is one thing, but if the flag was intended to be brought down after that See you at the pole, the insistence about the flag blew the whole thing out of proportion.
            So sad that society needs to fight about some of the simplest things that often could have been compromised so that everyone could be more comfortable. People want everything their own way and no one else’s will do. SMH I find it sad.
            Thank you for your help PPP7 Have a blessed day!

          • Lark.62

            Havng a “choice” pointed out by the government is hunky dory?

            Example – Your son loves HS football and wants more playing time Your family is Southern Baptist and believes praying to saints is an offense against god. The coach “suggests” that all the players gather before every game and show their team unity by praying to the Virgin Mary.

            Would this “choice” offered by this government employee with power over your son be okay with you? Seriously.

            There is a very good reason why our constitution restricts government authority to “encourage” religion. This limitation on government power protects all of us.

            As for the Protestant Christian flag in front of a public school?
            – The first correct response is not to fly it there.
            – The second correct response is “Thanks. You’re right. Public schools should not advertise religion. It comes down today.”
            – The petty and childish response is “We were going to take it down, but you complained so now we’re leaving it up. Nya nya nuh nya nya. We can do it because we control the government funded school. So there. ”

            This is not about the photo. This is about petty officials violating constitutional restrictions on government endorsement of religion. And not caring.

            If soldiers died to protect our Constitution, the least we can do is defend it.

          • Eldrida Urika

            If it had not been questioned it would have been down the day after “See you at the pole day. Now it’s a matter of standing up for it, not for the reason it was put up in the first place.
            So Is this considered an offense if it is ONLY for the “see you at the flag day?” If the flag was there just for that one week even and only about the “see you at the flag day”?
            If they hadn’t posted it on the school website was the point. It is illegal to promote religious events by the school. but fly a flag for see you at the pole day doesn’t seem to be illegal IF it is strictly for that purpose.
            As far as the pettiness, both sides are being petty as far as I can see because neither side is willing for find a compromise and work the problem out instead of acting like adults and instead of whimpering and complaining both sides need to check out their maturity levels. Any disagreement can be worked out if it is actually talked about.
            I’m fed up with the way this country doesn’t really give a damn about everyone’s opinion and they give in so quickly to things without any input at all from the other groups to see what kind of things can be in it to satisfy both groups. One way or the highway it used to be called.
            There is no choice in anything anymore. It’s an illusion.
            A stupid piece of cloth and it’s causing all this problem because people won’t talk to each other. SMH Both sides are stubborn not just one.

        • Jerome Horwitz

          Also, if you read the article, you’ll see that “[t]he district says that the flag will stay as it continues to deliberate the matter.” It’s been up almost a month and they have no intention of taking it down.

          Yeah. It’s almost as if the Constitution allows for freedom of religion and freedom of speech.

          No, wait….

          • MarkSebree

            Neither of which are an issue since those are rights of the people, not the government. The government does not have rights. It has obligations, responsibilities, and restrictions. The Government is bound by the Establishment Clause to not favor or disparage any religion or non-religion. A public school is a government facility. Therefore, it cannot favor any religion, including Christianity.

            That is also why nobody is complaining about the students who are flying Christian flags from their pickups. THAT is an example of freedom of religion and freedom of speech because it is being done using their own personal property, not government property, and their own personal money, not government money.

          • Netizen_James

            Government entities don’t have any rights. Only PEOPLE have rights. Government entities have either the authority to do X, or they lack such authority. Please show me the article, amendment or statute which gives the government the authority to promote religion. Good luck with that.

    • Jerome Horwitz

      Why is it necessary for a non-religious, public school that is open for all students of any or no faith to wave a Christian flag?

      For the same reason they could have waved a flag of Stewie Griffin:

      It’s none of your business.

  • Kevin Canuckster

    Where has democracy gone? One person objects and this overrides the other 99%? Perhaps they should just hold a town wide vote, let the majority speak.

    • ectocooler

      1. We live in a constitutional republic, not a democracy. You didn’t even make it 4 words in before being entirely wrong. Congratulations.

      2. We have a constitution that protects the minority (in this case non-Christians) from the tyranny of the majority (the unconstitutional display of an obviously Christian flag on PUBLIC land). Our constitution is the bedrock of our entire society. We don’t subject our rights to some popularity contest just becuase you can’t keep your delusions to yourself and want to shove it down everyone’s throats.

      You fail entirely and completely at making a cogent argument. Please stop, pick up a book that isn’t the Bible, and learn something.

      • NCOriolesFan

        if the minority (sore losers) need protection, what the heck is the purpose for elections. They’re winner take all. They have the same rights just like the rest of the us to speak out.. They’re only sore loser cry babies.

        • Lark.62

          Elected officials are determined by elections.

          Rights and freedoms are not subject to majority whim.

          • NCOriolesFan

            Well think if the opposition to the Constitution (if any) were winners we would not have it.

            Winners are winners and losers are losers, period plain simple.

          • MCrow

            Ok. Well, Christianity an religion in general is slowly losing membership in the US while non-religious is the fastest growing category. When the switch happens, I’ll make sure to protect the Christian minority with the same fervor you are disregarding the current minority

          • wandakate

            GOD knows who these people are and His WRATH will come on them full strength without mixture…They will reap what they have sown…GOD is on the back burner of most peoples lives and that is true, but He told Christians in His word that they would be discounted, they would suffer persecution and would have trials and tribulations in this life. They were told to watch, to be alert, awake, aware of the unfolding situations of the world. We were told to know the signs of the times…We were also told to be our brothers keeper, so good for you that you will make sure to protect the minority. That makes me want to live in your neighborhood MCrow…

          • mr goody two shoes

            Not true Drudge report just had a article that there will soon be more Muslims than Jews in the united states. The only thing keeping atheists from being killed right now in the USA is Christians are still the largest religion.When Muslims take over you won’t see any atheists willing to die for atheism I can guarantee you that.Christian beliefs are worth dying for.

          • MCrow

            Ok, let’s go through.

            1) “Drudge Report” – is not a reliable source of news, much less prophecy. The last noteworthy thing they did was break the Clinton scandal.

            2) More Muslims than Jews – yep: America did what Hitler failed to and has cause the rapid decline of Judaism to the point of synagogues closing. It could, perhaps, be due to the constant assertion from Christians that no other religion should be represented. You mean for it to target people you deem “wrong,” but Judaism is a casualty of it.

            3) The thing keeping atheists from being killed is the law. I’ve seen people ON THIS WEBSITE fantasize about killing atheists. You’ll pardon me if I don’t see the difference between you “loving” Christians and the Muslims you hate, except Christians have better PR.

            4) I am willing to die (as an atheist) for the sake of my family, friends, children under my charge, and even just folks I view fondly. I’m not going to die for some far flung idea or “god,” you are right. However, that does not mean that if there was a hostile act, we wouldn’t do anything. I know plenty of atheist soldiers, and you dishonor them with your words.

            5) Finally, I am right. Statistics show that the fastest growing religious category worldwide, the US included, is “None.” Maybe reflect on why that is

        • wandakate

          These people aren’t worried that men are allowed into the women’s room and women are now allowed into the men’s room just because they think that they are a different sex than what they were born, but they like to pick on Christians and schools in small towns that fly a Christian Flag beside the American flag…They apparently think that Christians are “weak” and won’t protest and will just give up and let them have their way with the dictatorship…Christians (real ones that is) are NOT weak. They have the “power” of the one and ONLY ALMIGHTY GOD standing before them, and the power of the HOLY SPIRIT behind them and they have on the FULL armor of GOD for protection. What is there to fear? Do we obey GOD or man?

          • Eldrida Urika

            Hi Wandakate, Just a note; Christian should not be concerned when this kind of thing happens. These things are all Temporal and we are to focus our eyes on Eternity and not be overly concerned about the things in the time because they will all end one day and we will have the things we store in heaven but not anything that is able to rot or rust, remember?
            We have to show that we are better than the people who are against us by showing that faithfulness in Jesus by not just standing up for our faith, and our beliefs, but we also were told to get along in this world because we have something so much better to look forward to. We should not need the government to help us promote our religion anyway, it is our duty to spread the gospel and to make it known to others ourselves, not in a way that is going to trouble others of other beliefs. We do not create strife, we stay calm in the knowledge of our God’s protection and knowing that no matter what happens here and now, it will be forgotten when we are in Gloryland.
            Looking at this world and realizing that there is no reason to be unhappy when we know that it will end one day and then we will truly be free of unhappiness.
            This is why so many Christians can be calm in the midst of a disaster, because it is God’s Will and we know that there is a reason for it that will end with goodness, not evil, and we know that when this time here is over all those things we worried and fussed about will no longer matter and by realizing that, we can be calm in the face of turmoil knowing that things will turn around and that God is in control so we have nothing to fear. Our calmness is what helps keep others calm in those times as well, and is needed when people are at the peak of fear. We are to be as close as possible to Jesus and reflect his goodness and his love and his calmness which he showed us before the cross and he kept going off to pray, he still showed calm to his disciples when he found them sleeping with a half-hearted reprimand then he went off again to pray to his father. Jesus In my view, is someone who could not be ruffled when things flew into a tizzy all around him. Like a doctor or nurse who deal with emergencies every day. They know that they will do the best for each person that is possible while handling any medical problems with experience and with the ability that is needed to deal with it.
            Calmness comes from knowing God is with us, and will protect us always, because he loves us.
            Blessings Wandakate, nice to see you posting again. it has been a while.

          • wandakate

            Hey, that was SO good, one of the best I have read from you in awhile and NOT too long either.
            Very inspiring comment and I got a lot out of that, b/c even Christians struggle with sin. We must confess and repent daily, b/c sometimes it can difficult to stay on the narrow road. I am faced with problems and emotions that sometimes even I have trouble handling, so when I read something like what you wrote here and really consider what you said, it helps me to realize any sins that have crept into my life, for that I am grateful.
            Also I have to keep my eyes on JESUS, the perfect example of “PEACE”, “CONTENTMENT, and LOVE in the midst of ALL of our storms of life. As I look back I remember flying off the handle several times and NOT being in control with spouse as well as family members. We live and learn hopefully. And JESUS bring us the ultimate peace with the comforter (the HOLY SPIRIT), which is a miracle in my opinion. As you say, it’s that we are somehow able to keep calm in the midst of the storm, while others are in a panic over life’s problems. The MORE we seem to cling to Him, the calmer it gets, PTL.

            I wish you had a book of ALL the good things that you write that are apparently coming straight from your gentle heart.
            You have a unique way of inspiring others IF only they will understand what you are saying and attempt to apply that to their lives, which can at times be difficult.
            SO, those are my thought at 4:04 a.m. as I checked my mail b/c I woke up with NO propane (heat) in my place. It seems like every time I run out, it’s on one of the coldest nites and has to be at nite…BUT, the LORD is still good, and thank GOD that if tomorrow comes I live where we have propane and will be able to get the tank filled up…I thank GOD For what I have and my blessings upon my life.
            I find many of us just expect that He’s there for us, and we know that He loves us, yet we DO so little for Him in return. It’s like we’re gimme gimme people, give to me LORD, while I do nothing for you. We don’t testify as much as we should, we don’t call evil what it is EVIL…and we don’t give a witness to Him when we could have, and thus that opportunity passes us by. SO, I pray that we will SEE the light of JESUS shining and follow that light, so as not to dip into the darkness of satan and his evil will…BLESS YOU DEAR, very inspiring indeed.
            I’ll be looking for me of the same. May the LORD illuminate you with “inspiration” to build up and strengthen others to have to love, faith, hope, and calmness that the LORD has bestowed upon you. You’re a very fortunate lady…

          • Eldrida Urika

            First I have to tell you that I wrote and edited that post at least 3 times trying to make it shorter for you! I guess it just isn’t in me to not write things in short because I want so much to help others understand what I am saying. It’s important to me that I am
            clear and can be understood without misunderstandings.

            Thank you Wanda, you made my day begin with awesome joy to know I have helped you. It means a lot to me. You are welcome to copy and paste my posts into a text document if you think you would like to look through them at a later time. Sometimes I cut and paste a comment I want to reply to so I can be sure to address each point they have made, then I can edit in the text document and cut and paste it into my reply. (Unfortunately it doesn’t always make my posts shorter) I also do that all the time with some of the amazing posts in this and other comment boards too. It does help with my growth so I try to label them so I can find them faster too. We should use any source as long as we are careful about
            checking out what they say to see if they align with God’s Word so we can avoid the false prophets and anti-Christs but any help with understanding can be important but, only if we use it the right way, of course.

            But in this case, the words are not mine, Wanda, I just say what I am inspired to say. Sometimes the Holy Spirit takes over completely to write for me. It is an Awesome feeling that many Christians miss because they do not look for the Holy Spirit in their lives as part of their faith and belief that Jesus will fulfill all the promises God has made for each of us. My faith has been made stronger because
            I am able to see the way it affects my life.

            This world is going along the path that our Lord and Savior told us it was going to. In His Word he told us what to watch for and he told us that when we see those signs we must watch and wait for the time of his arrival as those things must happen before the end. He never told us to try to stop these things, he told us to trust in him
            about the world and for us to be out in the world telling people the Gospel and bringing them to Jesus before it is too late for them.

            He told us that we need very strong faith to be able to keep on going through these times that are coming, and that many of us will stop having faith and trust in God during these times. We need to support each other and not lose Hope because these times will be harder for us than at any other time in the past. We must ask God to help us to stay strong in our belief so we do not give up.

            Being able to recognize our sins is very important to our Salvation, although the love we have in our lives; the charity we show; There are some things that Jesus told us would allow forgiveness for a multitude of sins. Things that are a bright light in your life, will overwhelm any sin (darkness) not found, but it is up to God how much is forgiven for those things, and we still need to regularly look at our lives to see if any sin has slipped into our lives that we think of as ‘normal’ that are actually affecting others (or yourself) in a bad way. I was taught to take the time to look at myself and how I live to see if there is anything new to recognize because things change so frequently in our lives. It actually isn’t hard and I have often found things in my life that are affecting not just others/self, but sin that is hard to see too. We must constantly be aware of our actions so we will end up thinking about them before we take action. This is where we learn to ask ourselves what would Jesus do in the same circumstances, and know Jesus well enough (by reading the Gospel) to be able to know what to do. Of course,
            praying for wisdom and knowledge for our needs is always the best way to find out what we need to be able to live in the Lord. When we read the Bible, we should ask for wisdom and knowledge about something we have in our lives, and then open the Bible randomly, allowing the Lord to open it where our answer will be. If it isn’t there, there is an answer to something that will happen in our lives soon that will be done before the other is worked out. Some
            things in our lives are set and have to happen so other things in our lives will be opened to us. It is all in His plan for us.

            There is so much around us that we should be thankful for that we just take for granted.

            I have always loved nature, but knowing God has opened up my eyes to it and looking with that in my heart has made every little thing so much more than it was. Every day I see more that I had not seen before and it is my Joy.
            I addressed one of your points in another reply. Blessings!

          • Eldrida Urika

            As I look back I remember flying off the handle several times and NOT being in control with spouse as well as family members. We live and learn hopefully.

            That brings something to mind as well. Dear you have to remember that we not only have the responsibility of recognizing our sins, past and present, but we have the ability to set things right again when we have done harm to other people. Especially when the mistake made it a life changing event. When things are put into darkness because of our sin, we need to bring the light back into it so the light will overwhelm the darkness again. There is no other way to bring the light so our sin will be forgiven by the others and the mistake might not be ‘fixed’ right away, but if you keep in the identity of Christ that we should all know, it means that we are headed in the right direction.

            We need to confess our sins to the people we harm as we need to apologize to them for what we did in error. There is no shame in stating that you realized you were wrong all those years ago, and want to apologize for all the things afterwards that have happened because of that mistake.

            It’s called honesty and it’s a Christian attitude to make things right so they can see how the Lord has changed us to be better people. It is what can inspire others to take another look at the Bible just because we have changed so much that it stands out like a sore thumb. They will likely be thinking that you will never change what your attitude was at the time, but when we admit to our being human and making mistakes and that we have learned from
            the Bible that we did them harm and you want to apologize for it, and show them how the change is true. Even if you have to keep trying to show them, don’t stop trying. If it is the talking about your beliefs, you don’t have to mention the Bible to say what those beliefs are. Some people don’t want the Bible even whispered and need to be reached in a way that suits them. It is our actions that will convince them that it is real and that the reason for the
            change is your belief in the Bible and Jesus. It takes time to show this kind of thing sometimes but if we work on being everything that God wants us to be, it can reconnect people to each other and to the Bible.

            I believe that writing our thoughts out first allows us to reread it and
            make sure it says everything that needs to be said to make your words clear and avoids misunderstandings and to make sure everything is there that you need to speak about. It is either a (snail) mail it to them and allow them to read it and hopefully reread it until it makes a difference, or it will open a door so you can still exhibit the changes. You have to consider what they have told you about the things that bother them if they have told you. If they don’t want to hear God’s Word, don’t insist on using it all the time. Instead show them the love you have for them, and let them respond to that. Our Lord’s Word can be exhibited in our actions better than with scriptures or words at times, and if someone is resisting the belief because of a problem, it can knock down that wall of resistance so they will listen in the long run.
            Longsuffer it, and be patient with them and whether there is a change in them will be great, but it won’t matter as much as the changes in you. We can only do our best with the knowledge we have, and sometimes we don’t have enough knowledge to rectify a situation, but it doesn’t mean we should not try. Be at peace with all people, no matter what their belief is and that is showing the love that Jesus commanded us to have. By loving them, you are more able to make the sacrifice for that love, knowing that Jesus wants us to be happy. Just knowing that you made the effort to apologize can have a great effect on your faith. It is by knowing that Jesus loves us as much as he does that allows us to be the one to give way when it is about love that has made it happen. Our love for the Lord will not be accepted by everyone and that includes our families as well as our friends. The Lord will remove people (by
            moving, or by a fight, or what seems to be ‘just life’ when it is actually God removing the people in our lives that can affect our faith in a negative way.
            It’s why he tells us not to hang around with sinners. We can change back or start to sin without really thinking about it in people who have a different belief than we do. The influence is real, and God wants us to avoid it. People who have been removed from our lives can be people who just don’t think about sin at all. Smokers; drug takers; swearers; gossipers; bad attitudes towards others; pretty well any negative that is possible to be an influence to your Christian growth. Once our faith is strong, we should be able to be in any situation with any influences and not be brought out of our faith because of it. If it is not that strong, then your faith needs to be strengthened before you attempt it again. It is how they influence us that makes them bad companions, not just that they are sinners. If we know what they say is wrong in our life, then we are able to control how it affects our life. If we are helping them, or easing them into turning to Jesus in any way, it is something that God would not see as a sin when you spend time with sinners
            anyway. His Salvation plan is more important than not spending any time with unbelievers/sinners. It is when we hang around with them too much and begin to mimic their behavior that it needs to be avoided. Doing the Lord’s work is NEVER to be avoided.

            It is in the Fruits of the Spirit that we are expected to exhibit to
            others from Galatians 5:22-23* (one of my favorite scriptures) It is how I believe he shows us not to treat people badly for their sins. You can’t treat someone badly if you are living the Fruits of the Spirit. It’s impossible – well, for a Christian, who knows what others can twist the words into. SMH

            Each of the Fruits of the Spirit is for us to show that we are Christ-like in our attitudes as well as our behavior towards other people. It is the belief in Jesus’ Words that help us understand what kind of things he feels we should behave like, to shine our lights for others to see.

            *But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

            Longsuffering is what it says God does when it takes us a long time to recognize and change something that we do against God’s Word. He allows our human faults to be overcome with patience in mind because it is not always easy to give up our sin, when we do try. This isn’t just for us, it is for everyone in the World, as He wants everyone to repent and be saved. He has shown that he is willing to wait for us to turn to him and be helped with everything in our lives. It isn’t about controlling our lives, it’s about God helping us to have the best life possible by guiding us through, and by giving us the trials that can teach us the things we need to learn, like for
            strength to get through.

            Most trials we endure are to teach us something. We have to look carefully in those times to see what God is trying to teach us so we can learn the lesson and move on. When we acknowledge and learn the lesson that he is teaching us, our trial can be much shorter, and when we can’t find the lesson, the Lord will keep you in the trial until you either learn it, or it is too much for you to bear, and then you often get one trial stopping and shortly after that, a new trial to still teach the lesson until we figure it out, either by looking for it, or by the trials he gives us. The sooner you learn the lesson, the sooner the trial will be over. Looking for the lesson
            is the best way to view the troubles in our lives, knowing that it is with those times that we grow in our faith.
            God bless you with wisdom and understanding and make a way for you to mend the bridges you need to in your life. I will be praying for you!

      • Jerome Horwitz

        We live in a constitutional republic, not a democracy.

        And our Founding Fathers never intended to leave power to just one person, because then you’d have a totalitarian regime. You know, like Venezuela? Cuba?

        We have a constitution that protects the minority (in this case non-Christians) from the tyranny of the majority

        Full stop. How does a flag constitute tyranny?

        We don’t subject our rights to some popularity contest just because you can’t keep your delusions to yourself and want to shove it down everyone’s throats.

        You do realize that applies to you, right?

      • zeddicuskotor

        1. We live in a Constitutionally limited representative democratic republic. You are only saying that due to republican propaganda.

      • Chet

        “Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools”…

    • Lark.62

      We have a Constitution.

      This Constitution places limits on government power. One of the things our government cannot do is promote religion.

      This is intended to protect the minority. So the argument of how the majority wants the government to promote religion only confirms the need for the First Amendment restrictions on government.

      • Jerome Horwitz

        One of the things our government cannot do is promote religion.

        Except the Constitution does not say that.

        This is intended to protect the minority.

        From what?!? A scary flag?

        • zeddicuskotor

          The prohibition against the establishment of religion is quite clear cut. You should try learning some civics.

          • JustThink

            From a homosexual?

          • Jerome Horwitz

            Apparently so should you: There’s no prohibition against being a Christian. Unless you happen to live in the Middle East, and considering the silence over Islam and sharia creep in the US from the FFRF and bigots like yourself, that’s probably what you want.

            But you should be careful what you wish for: Remember Orlando.

          • zeddicuskotor

            And strawman fallacy. Being a christian doesn’t give you the authority to violate the Constitution.

            Got any other dumb arguments that you need help with?

          • Jerome Horwitz

            Where and how is the Constitution being violated?

          • zeddicuskotor

            No sectarian symbols on government property.

          • MarkSebree

            A slight modification to your statement. “No sectarian symbols on government property” presented in such a many as to imply or state that the government favors that religion over others.

            An individual wearing a religion necklace or other jewelry, either visibly or under her clothing, would not be seen as government promotion of religion even if she is working for the government, as long as she treats ALL people equally without imposing her religion on them either explicitly or implicitly. Same with personal vehicle decorations.

          • wandakate

            When the government wants to pay my car payment then they can tell me how I can decorate it, what tags I can place on it and what color I can paint it or if I can or can’t fly a flag outside my window…I don’t recall reading ANY restrictions in my driver’s manual to this effect.

          • james blue

            Other than the times the FFRF goes after Islam in the US you are correct they are silent.

            Of course it could just be that you have no idea what you are talking about.

          • Lark.62

            When christians become the minority – which has already happened in some counties in the U.S. – atheist elected officials cannot put “there is no god” in government buildings.

            The government cannot promote or discourage religion.

          • wandakate

            IF there is NO GOD then where did they get the breath of life from? GOD gave it to them at birth and they breathed, and He will be taking it away at their death and they will cease to be a human soul any longer unknowing of anything under the heavens…They discourage religion or belief in GOD and yet they want to live a long life. But they don’t realize that the life they get to live is in GOD’s hands, and not of their own making…They may also not be aware that they will be accountable to JESUS for all of the things they’ve done in this life, the good and the bad and the ugly.

          • Eldrida Urika

            The more they discourage people, the more we should be out there encouraging the same people to come to Jesus.

            But it is the tolerant and loving Christian that needs to stand up for our beliefs now, and we want to tell them that Christians are good people who show caring and love in the things they do for others. They expect no return no matter how much they personally put into helping someone. The point is to make everything better for the people that are having a rough time and to point them to a rewarding life were they can live in a better way than without the help.
            It is the behavior of the Christians that are in the media to protest about the people who are sinners, that makes people want to erase Christianity. If people realized the goodness of Jesus and his love and concern for us, and hear what he is offering when we believe, by people who showed love and compassion for others the way we are supposed to, it might make a difference to how people view Christianity, but it is too late to make a difference to what has already been done to erase Christianity.

        • Netizen_James

          the constitution DOES say that.
          “The ‘establishment of religion’ clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever from they may adopt to teach or practice religion. ”

          When the ‘majority’ wants to change the US motto to ‘There are no gods, we’re on our own’, that’s when you will discover what it is that the establishment clause protects you from.

          • wandakate

            When and IF the times comes that we are “on our own” and the LORD leaves us to be on our own and completely make our own mistakes that is the day that ALL of hell will break loose and millions of demons will roam the earth…Christians need to be aware of this and pray that that day never comes.

          • Netizen_James

            What the majority wants/thinks/believes and what reality is are not necessarily the same thing. Anyone who thinks that ‘majority rules’ should catch the episode of ‘The Orville’ (named, oddly enough, ‘Majority Rules’) that aired on Thursday 10-26-17.

      • wandakate

        I will wait to be informed of ALL of that by the POTUS or the ones in charge, NOT some organization up in the state of Wisconsin who thinks they are GOD or that they have the authority of the United States Government to demand and tell people here and there what they can and can’t be doing. I will abide by the laws set forth by GOD and by man as necessary but the FFRF is neither GOD or the government, just common man, that’s all they are.

    • Netizen_James

      So if 99% of the population voted to immediately imprison anyone named ‘Kevin’, that would be perfectly ok, and you’d say to let the majority rule?

      No, of course you wouldn’t say that. And why not? Because you have a RIGHT to liberty, right? (barring due process and a trial and a jury and all that…)

      Similarly, we have a RIGHT as US Citizens to be free from government agents promoting religion under the guise of the authority of their public office. We have a RIGHT to be free from ‘government religion’.

      And no majority has the authority to infringe on that right. That’s what rights are all about – those things which even the majority has no say over.

      • Kevin Canuckster

        Seriously, this is your arguement?

        • Netizen_James

          Do you deny that we have a right to be free from government religion?

          • Kevin Canuckster

            I am not American. It is just sad to watch your country being destroyed from within. It was once such a beacon of democracy.

          • Netizen_James

            No, the USA was never once a ‘democracy’. The founding fathers made damn sure of that. There is a reason why ‘democracy’ doesn’t appear even once in the Constitution. The founders considered ‘democracy’ an evil idea where the oppressed and downtrodden poor rise up and seize the assets of their ‘lords’, the property owners. If you haven’t read the Federalist Papers, they make this case quite clearly. ‘Democracy’ is ‘mob-ocracy’ from the Founder’s perspective. With no more reason and deliberation than a lynch-mob. This is why we have a Constitution at all. To protect the rights of the individual against depredation by the whims of the majority – the will of the ‘mob’.

            And so, it doesn’t matter how many people in this town want government to promote Christianity as the ‘officially correct’ religion, or who want to forbid Jews from building a temple or to prohibit Muslims from building a mosque – the government simply _does not have that authority_. It would be unconstitutional for the town to prohibit the construction of temples or mosques, even if EVERY SINGLE PERSON in that town wanted to do so. It would be similarly unconstitutional for the town to assess a special tax on people named Kevin, for exactly the same reason.

      • wandakate

        Christians are to always “OBEY” GOD above all government laws.
        GOD”s laws are unchanging, they were made and they are still there, still valid, not obsolete by any means, sill relevant. Because you see GOD doesn’t change. He’s the same yesterday, today and tomorrow as well.Therefore if it comes to listening to GOD or listening to man then GOD must rule. JESUS told us to be in the world but NOT of the world…

        • Netizen_James

          Riddle me this Wanda: Is the Bible inerrant? Or are there pars that are wrong? If the Bible is inerrant, then doesn’t that mean that Paul’s admonitions in Romans13:1-6 are true and binding? And if Romans13:1-6 is true and binding, doesn’t that make George Washington and all his cronies heretical blasphemers for rebelling against the God-Given authority of King George III? So if George and Tommy and Jimmy and Benny were NOT all heretical blasphemers working against the Will of God, then does that mean that Romans13:1-6 is WRONG? Is there simply too much nuance there to pick one side or the other?

          If the government throws you into prison for disobeying man’s rules in order to follow your conscience, you will at least be in good company historically.

          Just like Mohammed Ali who refused to join the military when drafted – refused to go to another country and burn women, kids, houses and villages of people who had never once called him a racial slur…. Ali would have gone to prison if the government had not decided that the optics on that would have hurt them….

          Of course, you’ll also be in the same company as terrorists like Eric Rudolph and Robert Dear… Not an easy call.

    • Bezukhov

      Suppose the majority decides that a student has to prove he is a baptized Christian before he is allowed to graduate?

      • Kevin Canuckster

        Instead now the university boots him out once they learn that he is a baptized Christian.

        • Netizen_James

          Facts? Got any? Who was kicked out of college for being a Christian? Name names. If you’re talking about Andrew Cash, you’re full of bologna. Refusing to counsel your clients is as anathema to the counseling profession as refusing to save a dying patient is to the medical profession. Do you really want the ER doc letting you suffer harm or die because she just doesn’t like ‘people like you’?

    • wandakate

      The FFRF people up in Wisconsin must think they are gods or something. I would like to know WHO had given them authority to take it on themselves to be TELLING/DEMANDING people of what they can and cannot do? It sound communistic to me, it’s sounds bossy and very demanding. What court of law recognizes these people? Last I knew we still live in a “free” society. Even our own POTUS doesn’t send letters out like that or “DEMAND” that certain towns or schools do certain things. This is beyond their power (FFRF). They have ALOT of nerve telling these people what they will or will not do on their own grounds, or at their own school or in their own town or county etc…
      Why does their letter matter? Who the (you know who) are they? They need to stay in Wisconsin, and do what people there do and mind their own business and worry instead about what goes on up in Wisconsin and stop being SO concerned about the rest of us. Will anyone who objects to any of this PLEASE STAND UP…I don’t see GREG or LADY in CHRIST or HANDY GRAPH or GIZMO standing!!! I am NOT standing. I am flying my religious FLAG as high up as possible on my flag pole for ALL to see. I am NOT ashamed of JESUS CHRIST. Those who are will have consequences. JESUS said, “IF you are ashamed of me before man, I will not confess you before my FATHER who is in heaven.”

      • Netizen_James

        The made no demands, merely a warning. Their letter simply points out the current legal reality of the situation. The legal reality is that this promotion of Christianity on the part of the public school is illegal and unconstitutional, and if the school persists, they will be sued. And when they lose their suit, as they will, they’ll have to pay the FFRF’s lawyers their fees. (this is how these things work). So the taxpayers have a choice – they can support throwing millions of dollars down the tubes supporting the FFRF’s lawyers, or they can take the flag down and comply with the law. Should be a pretty easy choice, by those who think with their heads, instead of listening to their ‘gut’.

        Where do you have to put your head in order to listen to your ‘gut’? 🙂

  • Tom Rath

    Young asked the wrong question.

    Instead of asking if anyone at the meeting objected to the flag, he needed to ask who was willing to donate to pay off the settlement when the district loses the lawsuit.

    • Jerome Horwitz

      Is it safe to assume you would like to see this happen?

      • zeddicuskotor

        If it takes a monetary penalty for you christians to follow the law, then so be it.

        • Jerome Horwitz

          But they aren’t doing anything wrong, bigot.

          • zeddicuskotor

            They were, which is why these types of cases always lose in the courts. The establishment clause is clear.

          • Jerome Horwitz

            They were? According to whom? You?

            And don’t say the FFRF. They are nothing but a hate group. So their opinion is not relevant as it is based on hate.

          • zeddicuskotor

            This isn’t the first time that Constitution hating Christians have been smacked down for trying to place sectarian symbols on government property. Try to keep up, boy.

          • Jerome Horwitz

            “Constitution-hating Christians?”

            Either you haven’t read the Constitution or you think we live in a communist country.

            Showing off your intell

          • zeddicuskotor

            The prohibition against the establishment of religion is still in the Constitution. No matter how much of a theocracy you wish to establish here in America.

          • Jerome Horwitz

            You can’t create something that already existed, idiot. And a flag doesn’t equal a theocracy.

          • zeddicuskotor

            No sectarian symbols on public property. The establishment clause is clear cut on this, no matter how often you theocrats keep losing in the courts.

          • Jerome Horwitz

            What clause are you referring to?

          • zeddicuskotor

            Establishment clause.

          • Netizen_James

            You clearly haven’t read the Constitution. Maybe you should try it. Once you’re done, tell us where you found the words ‘God’ or ‘Jesus’ or ‘Christ’ in it. Good luck with that.

          • Netizen_James

            Yes, they are. They are a government entity illegally promoting religion. They are using OUR tax-dollars to support religious expression, in violation of the constitution. Show me the Article, Amendment, or statute that authorizes government entities to promote religion. If you can’t find it, then government entities have no such authority, and therefor any such promotion is unauthorized and therefor illegal.

            The US Supreme court has said: “The ‘establishment of religion’ clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever from they may adopt to teach or practice religion. ” (330 US 1)

            What part of that, specifically, do you disagree with? Would you be ok with government entities promoting reincarnation as the ‘officially correct’ afterlife-belief? Would you be ok with government denying marriage to anyone who has ever been divorced, as the Gospel requires? Or do you not care about government promotion of religion, so long as it’s YOUR beliefs they’re promoting?

          • Jerome Horwitz


            Go away, commie.

          • Netizen_James

            so, no logical or reasonable argument, just a typically dismissive ad hominem fallacy. Figures. Your type never has any REAL arguments – you’re all about the FEELS.

          • Jerome Horwitz

            Commie, we have already been round and round with this. You hate Christians and Christianity, and there’s no need or reason to deny it because of things we both know you have said in the past.

            There’s no need to engage you any further.

            Get stuffed.

          • Netizen_James

            My, what a Christian response. Do you kiss your mother with that mouth? Can’t take the heat, can you. You have no rational or legal arguments, so all you can do is huff and puff and call people names, and make unwarrented and evidence-less claims about them.

            No, I don’t hate Christians. Some of my best friends are Christians. No, I have never once said anything about hating Christians, ever. Is lying something you only do for Jesus, or do you lie for other reasons too?

      • Tom Rath

        I tend to lean towards the easiest solutions. In this case, the district should cease the unconstitutional behaviors and avoid the unpleasantness (and expense) of litigation.

        • Jerome Horwitz

          Answer my question. Yes or no?

          • Tom Rath

            I thought I did. I would prefer the easiest solution as stated above. The only real upside to litigation is the possibility that others would learn from it and not commit the same obvious violations.

            But, if that really worked…why is it still happening?

          • Jerome Horwitz

            No. You didn’t. Funny how straightforward questions scare you so much.

          • zeddicuskotor

            “Is it safe to assume you would like to see this happen?” – You.

            Answer. Yes, I would like to see this happen. Another school board being forced to pay for legal fees after losing another case will only help promote the Constitutional obligations of keeping religion out of the state.

          • Jerome Horwitz

            Of course you would. Because you hate.

          • zeddicuskotor

            Yes, thanks for admitting that you hate the Constitution.

          • Jerome Horwitz

            Now I know you are just trolling.

            This is over.

          • zeddicuskotor

            It’s not my fault you hate America.

            Try taking a civics class and put down the bible. You are not doing yourself any favors staying this stupid.

          • Jerome Horwitz

            You know what’s sad? You calling me stupid while allowing others to see your posting history.

            It confirmed exactly what I thought: You’re just another anti-Christian bigot. Of course, like most of you, you also defend the teaching of Islam in public schools.

            I already mentioned the consequences of defending Islam. But you chose to ignore it. It’s like Jews coming to the defense of Adolf Eichmann: Your stupidity has reached symphonic and operatic levels.

            You probably defend them because they also hate Christians to the point of killing them. And the enemy of your enemy is your friend.

            I have neither need nor desire to read another word from you.


          • This style 10/6

            Blocking is the action of the defeated!

          • Jerome Horwitz

            More like the annoyed.

            Apparently you have not learned, have you?

          • MarkSebree

            He called you “stupid” because of YOUR posting history. YOU are the one that does not understand the US Constitution. YOU are the one that cannot defend his claims. YOU are the one that can only toss out logical fallacies and run away.

            YOU claim that people you do not know “hate Christianity” without any evidence. Requiring the school for follow the law is not evidence that anyone “hates christianity”, it is evidence that people caught the school breaking the law.

            Nobody here has shown themselves to be “anti-Christian”, just against wearing the wall separating church and state further. Nobody as advocating preventing anyone from following their own beliefs. You are the main person that is advocating that the government cease to remain neutral on the question of religion, and thus shown that you are against the Constitution principles that this country was founded on.

            Defending the rights of Muslims to practice their religious beliefs peacefully is a very American action. It is part of the core of the Conscious Clause of the First Amendment, especially as expanded by the 14th Amendment, Section 1. They have the same right to follow their religion under the US Constitution as you have to follow yours.

            What’s more, Muslims in general do not hate Christians. Those are only the extremists, the far religious right of the Islamic religion. Just as most Christians want nothing to do with the Christian extreme right, most Muslims do not want anything to do with the Islamic extreme right. After all, how would you like it if all Christians were judged by the actions of Christian terrorists like Richard Dear, Timothy McVeigh, anti-choice terrorists, and so on. Don’t think that those who make the news because of their religion represent everyone in that religion.

          • Jerome Horwitz

            YOU are the one that does not understand the US Constitution.

            And you are the one who said people who work for the government do not have a right to free speech. The Constitution does not say that. Anywhere. You literally made that up, and only because you hate Christians and Christianity.

            Nobody here has shown themselves to be “anti-Christian”,


            No way you said that with a straight face!

            Defending the rights of Muslims to practice their religious beliefs peacefully is a very American action.

            You mean like the guy who shot his two daughters and left them to die in the back of his taxicab because one of them was dating an American?

            How about the guy who sawed off the head of wife?

            The guy that killed 49 people in Orlando?

            San Bernadino?

            Funny how we did not hear from the FFRF when any of these things occur.

            But put up a cross as a memorial, and after ten years of it being there, someone drives by it and is offended, and it’s unleash the hounds!

            And don’t you dare try to assert that’s not the case. We have become sick and tired of hateful, bigoted liars and hypocrites. People like you.

            It is part of the core of the Conscious Clause of the First Amendment,

            Which does not exist. It’s a mistake to assume I haven’t read the Constitution, and so you think you make crap up like this and get away with it.

            especially as expanded by the 14th Amendment, Section 1.

            Which does not mention religion.

          • Netizen_James

            So you think that the clerk at the DMV has a right to pester you about your religious beliefs, and try to convert you to his own religion while you’re just trying to renew your driver’s licence? Really? You think the cop on the beat can ask you about your religion, and give you a ticket or not based on your membership in the ‘right’ congregation? Please think really hard about how you want government agents to act when you need them to do their jobs without imposing their faith on you. Would you be upset if the town clerk wouldn’t grant your marriage licence because of her belief that people who are divorced and then get re-married are all adulterers, because that’s what the Gospel says? Of course you would. Would expecting her to DO HER JOB be a violation of her right to religious practice? OF COURSE NOT. Same thing.

  • james blue

    When it comes to flags on government flagpoles my view is they should be limited to US, State, county and city if they have one and for schools the school flag if it has one. NO other flags, not rainbow flags, political flags or religious etc. The only exception would be the national flag of a visiting foreign dignitary as a sign of diplomatic respect.

    As for this particular flag there is no biblical calling for it. All it says is “Christian territory”

    • Jerome Horwitz

      It also says free speech.

      • james blue

        So government/public schools can’t prevent students raising an Islamic flag on school flagpoles? They have to leave it flying? What about a Nazi swastika flag? Can that be raised on government/public school flagpoles?

        While not absolute, freedom of speech means we are free to speak without government interference. it does not mean we are entitled to have a stage provided to us to speak.

        • Jerome Horwitz

          So government/public schools can’t prevent students raising an Islamic flag on school flagpoles? They have to leave it flying? What about a Nazi swastika flag? Can that be raised on government/public school flagpoles?

          Can you come up with an argument that does not include silly, irrelevant hypotheticals?

          • james blue

            Can’t you answer?

          • Jerome Horwitz

            I did. See below. End of discussion.

          • james blue

            You didn’t. One can only hope

          • Eldrida Urika

            “One can only hope” that he won’t reply again?

          • james blue

            That it was the end of the “discussion” Yes.

            Not that he actually discusses anything

        • Eldrida Urika

          They can only put it up for a short time and would have to represent something that the students are doing about that nation or whatever. Once that is over it should be removed.
          I expect there is a reasonable line of things that are allowed temporarily.

          With all these Heritage Months cropping up everywhere I wouldn’t be surprised if they show up more often than people complain.

          • Netizen_James

            No, government infringing on the rights of citizens is never ok – not even ‘temporarily’.

      • MarkSebree

        The government does not have the right of free speech. Only the people do. The public school is a government facility, which means that the school itself, which includes the flags being flown, does not have the right to free speech.

        • Jerome Horwitz

          And there it is: The stupidest thing I’ll read today.

          I just took a screenshot of your comment so I can share it on social media so others can have a good laugh at your expense.

          Thank you.

          • Lark.62

            Please find a civics book and read it. Mark Sebree’s comment id a good summary of the Bill of Rights.

        • Eldrida Urika

          But isn’t it different if it is a student led event? Everything I read says that some things are ok as long as the teachers /school have nothing to do about it. If the students put it up for their flag pole day, isn’t it ok by law because it isn’t the school itself but the students?

          • Netizen_James

            No Eldrida: In the same way that the school is not allowed to let it’s PA system be used for ‘student-led’ prayers during football games or graduation events, neither can it let it’s flagpole be used to promote or endorse any religion.

            See Santa Fe v Doe, 530 US 290

      • Lark.62

        The government does not have freedoms.

        People have freedoms.

        The government has restrictions and limits on what it can do. The Bill of Rights exists to limit government power.

    • Eldrida Urika

      It is only meant to be flown for this event of “meet you at the pole” day which is a national event. There is nothing wrong with it being flown for the one day or even a week around it. Now because of the complaint, it will be there longer than it would have been. Even the implication that it will be kept after the case if won is bogus. They know darned well that won’t be accepted, don’t they. But they are protesting the fact that someone doesn’t want it even to be flown for the one event. Sometimes that kind of protest is the only way you can stand up for what you believe in. I doubt the school would have left up the flag if it hadn’t been complained about.

      • james blue

        Thank you for the reply, but I’m afraid my view on flags on government/public school flag poles applies to temporary flying too.

        • Eldrida Urika

          Ok thanks for that note. Blessings!

  • mensajohn

    The Christian religion has a big advantage over other religions in this country. It does not need to exploit that advantage unfairly. Furthermore to get around the spirit or letter of the law all it has to do is get it display off campus but nearby where students can see it. Mixing religion and government hurts both. To be fair to the FFRF and others public schools should not promote any religion tacitly or otherwise. Furthermore it is giving implicitly other religions and non-religion permission to promote itself on campus. If someone was flying an atheist flag or Islamic flag that would get torn down in a hurry.

    • Jerome Horwitz


    • Eldrida Urika

      These things seem to miss a point that the displays have been there for centuries too. Everything that is historical and Christian does not have to come down because the nation was a Christian country at one time. Taking it down will not change history but it takes it out of the view so people will not know it unless it happens to be part of a curriculum.
      The simplest way is to take them away so the FFRF has nothing to complain about and only leave the ones that have historical meanings to them. Sorry to those without a Christian background but this is a nation that put some of those things there for a reason that was valid at the time and about HISTORY not religion alone.
      Christians were a big part of America at one time and removing all signs of it is lying about our history. You can’t take it out of our history so stop taking everything away. History should be allowed to be displayed.
      This nation has just gotten to bickering about everything and it’s not solving anything. No one is going to be happy with every demand and it is only by talking to satisfy both sides that will stop it.
      Even parents stop their kids from bickering and teach them about how to work out problems better than the government manages it.

      • Netizen_James

        No Eldrida. The USA was never a ‘Christian Nation’. Our Founders and Framers intentionally and deliberately did NOT include the words ‘God’ or ‘Jesus’ or ‘Christ’ into any part of the US Constitution. The ONLY inclusion of ‘religion’ in the original Constitution was negative – in the ‘no religious test’ clause of Article 6. A ‘Christian Nation’ would not allow Jews or Muslims or Buddhists to hold public office – so clearly the authors of the US Constitution did not intend to create a ‘Christian Nation’.

        Paul’s epistle to the Romans says that all governments are put in place by God, and that to rebel against the government is to rebel against God. (Romans13:1-6) So does that mean that Washington and Jefferson and Madison and all them were heretics for rejecting this Scriptural doctrine of the ‘Divine Right of Kings’ by rebelling against the ‘God-given authority’ of King George III? Where did the founders get the idea to reject this scriptural notion of the ‘divine right of kings’? They got it from the enlightenment philosophers like John Locke. So the assertion of those like David Barton that the Founders of the USA intended to create a ‘Christian Nation’ is simply twaddle.

        Neither history nor tradition can justify government infringing on our right to freedom of religion by promoting or endorsing SOME people’s religion as the ‘officially correct’ one. When the government starts promoting reincarnation as the ‘officially correct’ afterlife scenario, then perhaps more people will understand the value of the wisdom of the founders in creating an explicitly secular government.

        • Eldrida Urika

          I didn’t mean an official “Christian Nation” I meant the majority of people back then, were Christians.
          It just sounds so hateful how you say it. I’m not good with hate being associate with someone I believe in. Jesus is a loving God, not a hateful one.
          Did the Christians fight back against the removal like full force, and not listen to reason? I just can’t help feeling that if there was a compromise that would be ok for both sides, it would mean less hate.
          I don’t believe that anything that was done in the Christian faith in the days of our founding fathers was to be done maliciously. In this day and age I can imagine that, but not then.
          People seem to forget that Christians used to be considered “good people” because the majority of us were at the time. there was a day not really that long ago that we represented people you could trust and be taken care of properly by. We used to be ones that shined our lights by being good people. It’s sad that the ones that look at God as a God that hates people rather than sin are the ones that make everyone hate Christians. Because they are convinced that all are like those. But we aren’t and we aren’t interesting enough for the media to care. It won’t make it known that there are Christians that just want to live for Jesus and live their lives the way they want to. They are not about pushing their faith into anyone’s face, or about trying to force someone to believe. They move around and try to bring happiness to people who are not happy. They go around and help the homeless and do odd errands for people who are not able. they drive people to their appointments. That’s all the life they want to have. But because of the other kind of Christians we are being forced to give up everything and have nothing left. How is that different than Christianity being forced on others? Being forced to give up every little piece of Christian history regardless of the circumstances. you don’t look at the way some things affect other people you only see your own need to get rid of something you can look away from. Or ask it to be put on someone private property but don’t force them to remove it like they did that one cross they had to remove at night because there were too many against it’s removal but that didn’t matter. Our rights did not matter. The majority should matter sometimes because the things that are part of a town that existed before the person who didn’t like it came, is like the town’s heartbeat. A town – and I’m not pointing to this one article. A town that has been a Christian town for a hundred years should not be forced to give that up for one person who moved into the town Knowing it was a Christian place.
          If someone does it specifically because of hate of Christians and no other reason, it is wrong but it isn’t cared about the 99 because the one is offended, because it’s better in some way? No it isn’t there are some cases where the majority should be allowed to win over a minority of the # of people. It’s ridiculous how many times the 2 or 3 people of the whole town of 500 make them all give up their displays of their beliefs that have been around the people of the town for hundred/s of years should not be forced to give up something those people not only knew was a fact but moved in with the intention of causing problems. When it is a minority of 1 person vs. 1000 then no I don’t agree with that and it is happening all too often. We don’t have to cater to every ‘offense’ because a lot of the time it isn’t even an offense to the other people of their religion it’s a personal offense. That’s nuts. We can’t agree with everyone so why should we have to give in to a minority of people in that kind of situation.
          I’m sorry but when I hear about one complaint taking away a fun night like hallowe’en for gradually everyone I think that is not a reasonable reason to make everyone who’s every enjoyed that night disappear or be nothing like what we had as kids. It’s wrong that people who come to this country want everything to change to how they want it and we lose out to that every single time. We need to at least compromise about which complaints are valid. I heard it was few complaints about “Merry Christmas” and the majority of American Muslims had No problem with it. But someone new decided they wanted to be accommodated by taking someone else’s accommodation away and it didn’t even have to be about religion. How is that right without checking the facts it became a huge issue and it didn’t have to be if they had checked out who was actually offended. For years there were people upset and not being comfortable saying a simple Merry Christmas when they got off the bus, or said good bye to a friend near others that are probably not Christian. In the end, the complaint was not warranted and people started saying Merry Christmas to each other, including some Muslims.

          When I worked with young children at Christmas and Easter we offered alternative crafts for the other children and there was never a problem because the teacher controlled who had what. A compromise, see how that works. but now we aren’t allowed to celebrate the joy of the season because some unknown person has said it is an offense and everyone’s going with that. no need to check, one person complained, there must be enough to change everyone else’s lives for.
          Essentially the minority over the majority is about making the majority of the people unhappy and that makes sense to you?
          When children are picked for things do you think that if you offered them all cake as a prize then said nanny can’t have one because she’s offended by chocolate and the cake is chocolate. So because the child is known to hate chocolate, the teacher gives her a white cake instead as a personal cupcake. That’s wrong? and every other child who do loves chocolate have to suffer with white cake whether they like it or not and if they don’t and the teacher accommodates them then they will be accused of centering that child out or making them feel like they don’t belong. But if she doesn’t then that child has to have one day without a snack. otherwise 29 children have to go without that snack too. In the long run the whole snack event will be changed to be the way that the complainant wanted it. See that is what’s wrong. people just can’t compromise, they want everything the way they want it and don’t bother to do anything but comply to it. whether you want to or not. Force should not have to be used, and wouldn’t have to be if there was actual discussion about things and a compromise was worked out so both sides can be content. And with a mediator there should not be a problem with coming to a reasonable solution that is fair to both sides. Unless you can’t trust someone to not be neutral.
          Compromise is the key to getting along and it always has been.

          • Netizen_James

            “I don’t believe that anything that was done in the Christian faith in the days of our founding fathers was to be done maliciously. In this day and age I can imagine that, but not then. ”

            Oh my. Your naïveté is almost refreshing. Yes, the European genocide against the ‘heathen’ native American nations like the Sioux and the Delaware and the Haudenosaunee was done by ‘good Christians’ and was in fact not merely ‘malicious’ but downright evil.

            The very act of rebelling against the God-Given authority of King George III was an act that could not possibly have been taken by ‘good Christians’ as it flies directly into the face of Scripture – namely Romans13:1-6. So Washington and Jefferson and all the Revolutionaries were anti-Christian heretics, denouncing by their actions the ‘divine right of kings’ and thus the inerrancy of Scripture. The demographic happenstance of a majority of people CALLING THEMSELVES Christians is utterly irrelevant in the face of that glaring evidence to the contrary.

            Note well that Hitler and his Nazi’s called themselves ‘good Christians’ doing God’s work of getting rid of those evil Christ-killing Jews. (they sent gays and liberals and blacks to the gas chambers too – something that the likes of John McTernan would be happy about….)

            As Jesus Himself reportedly said: “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.” (Matt7:21-23)

            Which is another way of saying ‘people can CALL themselves whatever they want – doesn’t mean diddly.’ The bit about sitting in my garage every Sunday for two hours not making me a car applies here as well!

          • Netizen_James

            ‘good people’ do not deny families to foster-children, simply because they don’t like the ‘lifestyle’ of prospective adoptive parents. Christians have been known to do that.

            ‘good people’ do not commercially discriminate against gay people simply for being gay. Christians have been known to do that.

            ‘good people’ do not commercially discriminate against black people, simply for being black. Christians have been known to do that.

            ‘good people’ do not invade other nations, burn their houses families villages and old women in order to steal their land. Christians have been known to do that.

            ‘good people’ do not own other human beings as chattel, nor do they rape or beat these humans, simply because they can. Christians have been known to do that, too.

          • Eldrida Urika

            Let me tell you something, the “Some” Christians that are like that believe differently that other Christians. The majority of Christians don’t get involved in the big things of life, we keep to our own neighborhoods and Churches to live our lives. We don’t go around bugging anyone and if they are racist, then that is separate from being Christian. Racists unfortunately are from every walk of life and that is what we need to fight back about.
            Being inconvenienced for one day is pretty minor for anyone in this world. We are inconvenienced almost on a daily basis in random ways. Do you complain about those inconveniences too?
            Seriously, you are listening to other people who are complaining and whether it is true or not, do you have statistics about how many Christians agree with this and how many think we should be a different way? Because that is a differences between Faiths.
            Being angry at a group of people for their beliefs is unnecessary if it isn’t affecting your own life in some way besides being an activist for everything against it. You are making it clear that it is the Christian faith you are against, so I’m guessing that you have a reason for being so offended to the point of making a list of what you have found out about SOME Christians. I’m sorry, First of all, some of those things are from a long time ago; in the Old Testament. Anyone who follows Jesus would not be even close to what you describe. Or they can’t be Christians. The New Testament has nothing like those things in it. Jesus would not agree that it is the way to show love and that is what Christians are supposed to be doing. I see nothing in that list that could come from the bible as the Gospel /New Testament is what we are to follow, with connections mentioned that are shown in the OT too. So I personally would not support anyone who did. There are a lot of Christians that I feel sin by the way they are behaving in Public towards other people. Again it is only a portion of Christians who agree with the things in that list.
            This world has a lot of good people and a lot of bad people, and the ones that make the news are the ones that people think of when they talk about groups of people. Bad ones make really good copy for the media when things are found out. But the fact is that there are good and bad and it doesn’t make any group immune from that fact.
            I bet if you put a little effort into it you could make a list of things that Christians have done that are good, not bad. You aren’t looking at the whole picture if you think all Christians are like that.
            I am someone who is not like that. My church of close to 100 are the same too. So why should I believe that of that “media” Christians they represent the majority of Christians. I don’t believe they do.
            So I think you should take another less bias look around at Christians and the things that SOME do that are good, rather than bad.
            Some other religions also have bad pasts but are not necessarily bad like their ancestors either. The fact that there are Christian groups all over the world tells you that there are other ways that people teach others to believe. You are believing a very limited view of Christians and I honestly think that you should try to look at it again. I hope you do because your anger can’t be good for you. Perhaps it will give you Some Peace. Blessings!

          • Netizen_James

            As with all things – look to what JESUS said to straighten stuff out. JESUS said to treat others as we would want to be treated. I wouldn’t want my child’s school coming anywhere NEAR the promotion of the Hindu pantheon as the ‘officially correct’ theological belief. I wouldn’t want them erecting statues of Ganesha on school grounds, or exclusively flying a Hindu flag, or having teachers or coaches leading the students in prayers to Shiva or Brahma, or acting in ANY way which could reasonably leave the impression that the school, and therefor the government, supported Hindu beliefs over other belief-sets. Would you? Thus, regardless of my own beliefs, I cannot countenance the school pushing ANYONE’s religious beliefs on the young and impressionable student body. Because that’s what ‘do unto others’ means.

          • Eldrida Urika

            Excuse me? you don’t like the golden rule? You don’t understand it from the sounds of it.

            So you think it is wrong to treat people the way you want to be treated? But that is how we treat people so they are being treated as equals to us. It’s how to teach our children how to get along. “Would you like it if Henry hit you like you hit him? NO. Well then treat others how you want to be treated and don’t hit anyone again, unless you want them to hit you. I always used the golden rule to help them understand that others have feelings too, and that’s ok, as long as people are treated properly.
            Here is how I look at treating people the way we want to be treated.

            When I treat you like I want to be treated, which is what I try to do, I
            treat you with respect regardless of whether I disagree with you or not.
            As I would like the same respect given to me.
            I am polite and kind. If possible I would show you the love I have for others.
            As I would expect that because I am treating you well, you will treat me well.
            The thing is because I have lived with the golden rule in my life I have found the truth about it. People
            who begin to treat me badly, will more often than not, change the way
            they talk to me once they realize that I won’t be rude back.

            Were you aware that the golden rule is in the
            majority of Holy books that are in the world? They have different
            wording but the meaning is the same in every case.
            I found a list of 100 religions that have that same verse in their Holy Books. It is a way to get along with others, it’s not anything bad in any way, nor does it make anyone do what they don’t want to do. It’s more about morals and polite behavior than any religion at all.

            I’m confused why you think Treating others as you want them to treat you means they pushing a religion when it is just good sense to tell people – usually as children – to treat each other kindly so everyone will get along. It’s not about promoting religion, and especially not Christianity only. It’s about how we can all get along. Yes it started out as a saying from the bible, but it hasn’t been that for years. It’s just a sensible way to live.

            People don’t join in when they treat people well, they just don’t treat people badly if they don’t want to be treated badly themselves. That’s all it is.
            If that’s what you believe do unto others means then you missed the message altogether.
            It is likely how we would treat each other whether we were Christian or not. it just makes sense that it will help people to get along with each other. Like my example, a child will understand why he was wrong to hit another child by putting them into the reverse role and ask them how they would feel. That’s how you teach them to think “Would I want Henry to hit me? No, so I shouldn’t hit him. ” Treat Henry the way I want to be treated by not hitting him. Do you not think that is reasonable?
            I could see your point if it meant when someone does you wrong, you should do them wrong right back, but that is the furthest thing from the truth. It is to teach goodness, not a religion. People should want to be good people, shouldn’t they? Kids shouldn’t fight but should be taught how to get along and that is all the golden rule does. It’s used by mothers and teachers of young children without thought of the bible every day.
            If you don’t like the way it sounds, fine it’s not what I say when I talk about the scripture anyway. Its much easier to understand if you use treat people rather than do unto others’. Do unto others and you would have done unto you is the scripture, but treat people the way you want to be treated is much clearer about it’s meaning.
            It’s also not the Christian saying that comes from the original scriptures.

            How much do you know about the Christian Faith. Is all you heard of about bad things, because there are Good Christians that follow Jesus’ commandment to love everyone, and to behave in a way that stands out from the world. We aren’t supposed to treat people badly for any reason what so ever.
            If all you know is about the bad things like how the Christians behave in the government, you need to look at some positive Christian activities that are not about people pushing their religion on anyone.
            Generally, Christians don’t want to push our belief on anyone, because it has to be their personal choice whether to join us in our faith. We are just supposed to tell anyone who is willing to listen, about the Hope of Salvation by repentance, and about Jesus’ love for us. If someone is not willing to listen then we are supposed to leave them to their unbelief.
            See how different that is to the Christians you know about? Christians of different faiths believe in some things that others don’t, and don’t believe what others do. You probably interact with Christians every day without even knowing that they are Christian, because without a visible hint, like a cross, you would just think those people are ‘nice’ people. They might be Christians that believe in treating others properly and just live a life like that and their religion is a personal thing.
            Christians are every where you go, but you don’t see them all pushing their faith at others. I bet the majority of Christians have never Pushed their religion at another person.
            Christians are not all villains and really there are few in comparison to the number of Christians who live our lives following Jesus without it merging into the public eye as being Christian, but just being good people. We hide behind our goodness because we can be good by following our faith, and it doesn’t mean we have to yell it out, we show others our faith by our behavior. No one should be forced to listen about anyone else’s faith, it should be a voluntary action.
            I believe the majority of Christians believe the same thing.
            Blessings Netizen_James Have a good day!

          • Netizen_James

            They deleted my last response. I guess they don’t believe in free speech here. How….typical. Rights for me, none for thee!

            No, I have no problem with the golden rule.
            What I’m saying is that the golden rule SUPPORTS the separation of church and state. The GOSPELS support the separation of church and state. Anyone who doesn’t understand this isn’t reading carefully. Give to Cesar what is due to Cesar, and to God what is due to God.

            Do you want your child’s public school teacher to lead them in prayers to Baal, or Ra, or Odin? No.
            Do you want your child’s public school to encourage your child to be Scientologists – to believe in reincarnation, or in the galactic ruler Xenu? No.

            So then, by the standards of the golden rule, you cannot then countenance or endorse the public school teachers leading children in prayers to Jesus, or encouraging them to be Christians in any way. Because YOU wouldn’t want YOUR family’s beliefs to be disputed and contradicted by the government, right?

          • Netizen_James

            This was written as humor – but it makes the point very well.
            “Dear John,

            As you know, We’ve been working real hard in our town to get prayer back in our schools. Finally, the school board approved a plan of teacher-led prayer with the children participating at their own option. Children not wishing to participate were to be allowed to stand out in the hallway during prayer time. We hoped someone would sue us so we could go all the way to the Supreme Court and get the old devil-inspired ruling reversed.

            Naturally, we were all excited by the school board action. As you know, our own little Billy (not so little, any more though) is now in the second grade. Of course, Margaret and I explained to him no matter what the other kids did, he was going to stay in the classroom and participate.

            After the first day of school, I asked him “How did the prayer time go?”


            “Did many kids go out into the hallway?”


            “Excellent. How did you like your teacher’s prayer?”

            “It was different, Dad. Real different from the way you pray.”

            “Oh? Like how?”

            “She said, ‘Hail Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners…'”

            The next day I talked with the principal. I politely explained I wasn’t prejudiced against Catholics but I would appreciate Billy bein transferred to a non-Catholic teacher. The principal said it would be done right away.

            At supper that evening I asked Billy to say the blessings. He slipped out of his chair, sat cross- legged, closed his eyes, raised his hand palms up in the air and began to hum.

            You’d better believe I was at the principal’s office at eight o’clock the next morning. “Look,” I said. ‘I don’t really know much about these Transcendental Meditationists, but I would feel a lot more comfortable If you could move Billy to a room where the teacher practices an older, more established religion.”

            That afternoon I met Billy as soon as he walked in the door after school.

            “I don’t think you’re going to like Mrs. Nakasone’s prayer either, Dad.”

            “Out with it.”

            “She kept chanting Namu Amida Butsu…”

            The following morning I was waiting for the principal in the school parking lot. “Look, I don’t want my son praying to the Eternal Spirit of whatever to Buddha. I want him to have a teacher who prays in Jesus’ name!”

            “What about Bertha Smith?”


            I could hardly wait to hear about Mrs. Smith’s prayer. I was standing on the front steps of the school when the final bell rang.

            “Well?” I asked Billy as we walked towards the car.


            “Okay what?”

            “Mrs. Smith asked God to bless us and ended her prayer in Jesus’ name, amen just like you.”

            I breathed a sigh of relief. “Now we’re getting some place.”

            “She even taught us a verse of scripture about prayer,” said Billy.

            I beamed. “Wonderful. What was the verse?”

            “Lets see…” he mused for a moment. “And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.”

            We had reached the car. “Fantastic,” I said reaching for the door handle. Then paused. I couldn’t place the scripture. “Billy, did Mrs. Smith say what book that verse was from?”

            “Third Nephi, chapter 19, verse 18.”

            “Nephi what?”
            “Nephi,” he said. “It’s in the Book of Mormon.

            The school board doesn’t meet for a month. I’ve given Billy very definite instructions that at prayer time each day he’s to go out into the hallway. I plan to be at that board meeting. If they don’t do something about this situation, I’ll sue. I’ll take it all the way to the Supreme Court if I have to. I don’t need schools or anybody else teaching my son about religion. We can take care of that ourselves at home and at church, thank you very much.

            Best Wishes Always,

          • Netizen_James

            So then, you’re agreeing with me that discriminating against gay people, even with respect to fostering and adopting children, isn’t something that Christians should be doing then, right?

            You’re agreeing with me that owning slaves, or discriminating against black people, isn’t something that any Christian could ever do with a clear conscience, because that would be evil, right?

            You’re agreeing with me that those racists who used Scripture to justify their discrimination against Black, Hispanic, Arab, or gay people are simply wrong-headed and miss-interpreting Scripture, right?

            How is it that you can manage to make agreeing with me so disagreeable?

          • Eldrida Urika

            lol! sorry, I wasn’t disagreeing with you for most of the replies, I was trying to explain the things to you.
            I don’t agree with discrimination, no, and I don’t feel that Jesus would either. He didn’t even discriminate between sinners and believers. He told us to love everyone, with no exceptions.
            I believe that there is no scriptures that can be interpreted that is telling us to own slaves, but that in those times when they had slaves, they should treat them well and not abuse them. There were very clear answers about anything that happens involving a slave.
            Jesus did not tell us to discriminate. He told us to help others believers with our journey of believing; to tell the people who do not know the story of Salvation by repentance, and that Jesus told us he wants all to be save. He never gave any exceptions to that either.
            Everyone has a choice whether to be saved or not.
            I believe that Jesus would want equal rights for everyone. He never told us to punish other sinners at all, and when I put it into a quiz that my cousin used to use, it is very clear that he doesn’t agree with denying equal rights. Jesus would never agree to denying someone the necessities of life because of a person’s sin. Everyone knows that if you turn to Jesus and ask for the forgiveness of sin, no matter when it happens, if it is done with an honest heart, you will be saved.
            Yes Netizen I do not agree with racism or discrimination. That being said, I do have to say that the problems people have with the adoption is because of their understanding of the sin of homosexuality, and because it is a sin, it is a sin to teach that it is something that is OK when it is about a sin.
            I don’t agree with homosexuality because I trust my God and he stated it was wrong, and I know my God is just and as he is our maker, I believe he knows. I trust him to be just with everyone about everything, so I feel it is His responsibility to punish the ones he feels need to be punished. I’m more than willing to talk to someone about the gospel to help them understand about it, but Jesus gave us free choice and once a person has been told then they make their own choice whether to follow Jesus or not, and it is when they believe, and desire to follow Jesus that they want to repent and change how they live their life to make it more Christ-like.
            I know gays and I find them very loving and kind people, but it is not I that will decide the ones to be punished and not others, so I leave it to God and I’m the same with everyone and do not distinguish by anything on the outside. It is on the inside that matters to me and to God, and I can only go by what I hear and see, but God can see beyond that, so he is the best one to judge.
            Hopefully that helps end your debate with me, anyways.
            Blessings Netizen, I have enjoyed our discussion.

          • Netizen_James

            I’m glad that you see that racial and religious discrimination is anti-Jesus. I hope that you see my point about the ‘golden rule’ with respect to allowing the Government to promote ONE set of beliefs as the ‘official’ ones – or even to create the IMPRESSION of having done so.

            And yes, I’m enjoying our discussion too – except when the mods delete my posts! Let’s focus on the discrimination you seem to want to justify BECAUSE of Jesus.

            Please quote Jesus from the Gospels as saying that good Christians should treat homosexuals worse than lepers or tax collectors, and discriminate against them, and refuse to sell them wine for their weddings and such.

            No? Nothing like that? Hmmm. Go figure. You won’t find any encouragement for hating homosexuals from Jesus. Not hardly surprising, really. According to the Gospels, the only people He ever even got ANGRY at were the greedy capitalists who were infesting the Temple with their perfidy and theivery.

            There is *no* place in Scripture where a loving monogamous sexual relationship between two people of the same gender is condemned. Not one.

            If you think there is such condemnation in the Bible, cite the chapter/verse. Good luck with that.
            No, condemning ‘temple prostitutes’ is not condemning loving monogamous homosexual relationships.
            No, condemning the ‘sex as worship’ practices of the Romans is not condemning homosexual relationships.
            No, condemning the orgies, philandering and ‘anything goes’ attitudes of the Romans (including bestiality – yuck!) is not condemning loving monogamous homosexual relationships.

            And surely you know that the ‘sin of Sodom’ had nothing to do with homosexuality, right? Ezekiel should have set you straight on that:

            “Look! This was the sin of your sister Sodom and her daughters: Pride, too much food, undisturbed peace, and failure to help the poor and needy. ” (Ezekiel 16:49)

            (gee, the above sounds AWFULLY familiar – lots of pride, lots of food, lots of failure to help the poor and the needy – but no, the crazy preachers blame homosexuals and feminists for hurricanes and earthquakes – go figure!)

            If you’re going to go all the way back to Leviticus, then you’re going to need to explain why eating pork and shellfish is ok, but this one particular old law still applies. Good luck with that.

          • Eldrida Urika

            Please, Netizen, don’t put words into my mouth. I do not do that to you. The way you
            show your dislike of the Bible and Christianity is very clear, but to me, it
            sounds like you have never been helped to understand the Bible and how is
            written to help, not speak about evil things to do. I’d love to know the
            background you have in the Bible. The things you are claiming sound evil the
            way you describe them, but they have another reason for being told. Nothing in
            the scriptures was written without the intention to teach us. Either by what
            happened and why it happened to give us understanding, or by example of how it
            was dealt with so that there is no conflict. So you need to find a way to get a
            different person to help you to understand the scriptures that bother you. I’d
            be happy to do that if you can find a way – and you know, wanted to listen. I
            have no problem explaining most things in the Bible the way it was intended to
            be ‘seen’. But I’d like someone willing to open their mind to something that is
            not what they have believed, and I know that can be difficult for some people
            to do. I love to talk about Jesus and the Bible so others can see it the way I
            do and desire Jesus as much as I do. But even to give understanding for any
            scriptures helps someone else to go further to find out what so many people

            If you can find a way to discuss it further than what we can do here, I’m
            willing to teach you what I have learned and believe myself, without pushing my personal belief instead of teaching it. It really does make a difference if you look into more religions and see how they address the same or similar issues. All we want, and Jesus wants, is to help us all get along without hurting each other, which is usually caused by a sin. Some other religions are for the people to follow when that is the best way for them to be with God, as there are many kinds of Christian faiths and many kinds of people that we want to bring to Jesus, so I feel it would have been smart to have various churches that view things in a still Christian manner, but with a way that helps to bring everyone to God, because not everyone would agree with one faith’s way of believing. Without allowing the various ways, God would be limiting the ability to have more people turn to him and he is very much more intelligent than I could ever be. I think the main objective is to show the gospel to as many people as possible so they will have the ability to understand in the way that ‘works’ for them. The rest is an individual’s responsibility once they have had things explained to them, if that is what
            they choose. The church can encourage the proper way of thinking or behaving but it is each of us that has to do those things and to look to God for our needs. It is our love for God that makes us want to obey his directions (commands). We are not brought to the church to be treated badly or to learn to treat anyone badly. We are brought to learn about the Lord and what he did for all of us by dying on the cross, and before he did that, he taught us about how we should live so we reflect love and not hate, light and not darkness. Then he died for us to give us the ability to try to be what he gave directions for us to be. By forgiving our sins, and allowing us to try to stop sinning against others, he is saying that he knows it will be hard for us because the flesh is
            weak when it comes to wanting what it wants and who cares about anyone else.

            We lean on the Lord for strength to let ourselves not do what human nature tells us to do naturally. We are stronger by believing that he will help and it is what he does, help us. It is our sacrifice to God for all His goodness, giving up things that our flesh wants to do. Everything else is already God’s and our sacrifice to rid ourselves of bad things is a way we can show God the same love he showed us by sacrificing his son so we could have another chance as he was away from the world for a long time according to the way the bible tells us, in anger with his people.

            I’m glad that you see that racial and religious discrimination is anti-Jesus. I hope that you see my point about the ‘golden rule’ with respect to allowing the Government to promote ONE set of beliefs as the ‘official’ ones – or even to create the IMPRESSION of having done so.

            The Golden rule is not why they promoted Christianity, it was because the majority of people were Christian when it was started. It had nothing to do with treating each other the way they want to be treated. Otherwise there would have been other religions accepted without the problems because that is the way Christians want to be treated too. Can you understand that, or was I more confusing?

            And yes, I’m enjoying our discussion too – except when the
            mods delete my posts! Let’s focus on the discrimination you seem to want to
            justify BECAUSE of Jesus.

            I agree I seem to have lost a few posts but they are not shown as deleted usually, they just disappear as if I had not hit post. Odd that… Some things we are saying must be AGAINST THE RULES and meets a key search that the moderators use to find problem posts. I expect it depends on the moderator whether they read it for themselves or not though, so things can be expected to be deleted just for those words, it is against that key word usage. that we are deleted for I believe.

            Please quote Jesus from the Gospels as saying that good Christians should treat homosexuals worse than lepers or tax collectors, and discriminate against them, and refuse to sell them wine for their weddings and such.

            You are starting to make me feel you are not reading my posts. But maybe it was in a more recent post..
            I don’t have to point that out because it is not what I believe. I don’t treat anyone badly, in any way. That to me is an abomination because our behavior was one of the biggest things that Jesus pressed to us to be like. Everyone is a person and every person sins, no one is completely sinless. For me, gays deserve equal rights and the people who treat them badly and say it is because of our Lord are simply wrong to believe that. God made it clear to us that he did not approve of homosexuality when he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of their behavior and the way they turned away from God to fill their desires of selfish pleasure, which it was by the description. We know that it is an abomination to him, but that isn’t how Jesus looks at sinners, or wants us to. We are supposed to realize that everyone is human and some people need help to overcome a sin, but it is for them to come to us, once they know what the NT is saying. We need to invite people to listen and really explain the whole concept that is in the NT to them so they want to try to be better people for their love of Jesus.

            That’s all Jesus has asked from us. Love each other. Be good people (and honestly care about others not just help because God asks us to). Do not sin. Bring others to Him by showing the others our goodness and our reflection of our love for Jesus. And then it will be obvious to them so they can become better people once they have an understanding of why sin is harmful. Not everyone understands that, and that is an important thing to try to be as a Christian, as well as for any Christian who needs to explain about sin. The way it can be harmful is why sin is evil. When you have come to realize the love God has for you, it makes you realize that He wants to BE everything to us. He wants to provide for us, protect us, and give us help when we are not sure, from a God who is omnipotent and in our lives all the time. The things he has always wanted to do for the people he loves from Adam and Eve on, and because some don’t love him, or don’t trust in his promises, for the people who love him in return. It is by refusing to believe that God really can do those things in our lives that prevents him from being that God to everyone. Many things state that Jesus is a brother, a King, a God, God’s son, as well as a friend. He will help in ways our friends here can’t help us. And he does, act in all of those capacities when we need them in our lives, and I have needed in my life, my cousin’s life and a lot of other Christians too. I recently heard the testimony of a Christian man who needed a new family van because his was getting to the point that he felt it would not be safe to use for his family. He prayed to God to provide him with a safe car for his family. On a long trip his brakes gave out but he was able to slow off onto the shoulder and get out of the traffic without mishap. When the tow truck came he took him to a garage, which ended up having a used car dealership included. He had not been to a bank or anything for as long as he could remember, but it would be necessary to do that now, and instead of having a problem, he was breezed through the deal with even more off than they originally mentioned, and was able to drive it out shortly to boot. (He was going to a meeting.) So he drove off in the new van content with the whole event. God on the other hand wanted to show that he could not just provide but also protect him and his family, and the new van’s brakes also failed a short distance away, but he was able to again get to the side without mishap. They towed him for free, fixed the brakes for free, and gave him compensation for the problems he’d had.
            God had provided exactly what he had prayed about and there was proof to him that the van was made safe for his family, the deal was good, and everything that started off as a problem, was gone. One point I’d like to make is that the man is black and they are often looked at badly without cause beyond their skin color and he was expecting that kind of outcome about the loan. It was not a place who had racist views, so it went well instead of how it might have gone.

            I do not mean to offend anyone by that statement, because I am very aware of my
            white privilege and how it affects other people without it being obvious to others that it has racism at the root of any place who makes it more difficult for black skinned people to have the equal rights that everyone else has. I do not believe in being racist, nor do a large majority of my personal white friends. (only one turned out to be racist)

            Because of our belief in God that is how we look at our life; without coincidences or luck, it is by the will of God who from the beginning wants to give us everything we need, in his own time because he knows what is in the future for us.

            I really do not act any badly towards others, and I try to be kind to all people. I feel that anything OTHER than the wedding it is not abetting the sin, it is like helping people to be happy, and that is not a sin. I also believe that anything outside the actual wedding is not supposed to be treated any differently than for anyone else. Technically that is the only part of homosexuality that can be abetted, because the act is not usually something Christians want to even know about, let alone be there for it, right?

            But I do think that our belief should also be considered and not just one side of the issue. That’s all. I do say there are scriptures to show us that homosexuality is wrong in God’s eyes and that he made us male and female intentionally and did not tell anyone that they could mix those up in any other way. You see, God would have made it clear that it was ok if two of one gender would want to marry or anything else. He did not. It is by omission that it is clear to those of us who understand God’s Word. He would have put transgender into the Bible if he wants to make a separate statement about the belief that you are not the gender you were born, He would have. He made it clear that his intention was male and female and never the twain shall meet, so to speak. If someone believes in God and tries to excuse themselves from committing a sin they should also be aware of the consequences of that action, so he told us what was acceptable and gave us no exceptions to it. Anyone who is aware of those things, has chosen not to obey them, and make it so it is a different way of looking at the same scripture without the sin they want to do. It is going by what we want to do, instead of following the instructions by God. It is considered a selfish desire because it something that promotes the individual, (in each case) and that again is against God’s Word; selfishness is a no-no and it is selfishness when they force others to do only what they demand of everyone, without anyone being allowed to have a contrary opinion, especially when the Christian view was in the world a long time before the acceptance of gays, and transgender was not even a reality to anyone back then. (Except the ones who did believe this of themselves obviously). By not accepting that people have different ways of thinking about these things, and both sides should be considered before anything that isn’t harmful is changed.

            I’ve said in other posts. They say we are not tolerant of them, which should not be true, but it is also showing that they are not tolerant of us, does it not? So to make it fair to someone other than Christians – because it’s someone else’s turn? – it does not have to remove everything and most situations can be reached either by 2 people who are good at that kind of thing, or 2 people and a mediator so there is a way without harm to either side.

            No? Nothing like that? Hmmm. Go figure. You won’t find any
            encouragement for hating homosexuals from Jesus. Not hardly surprising, really.
            According to the Gospels, the only people He ever even got ANGRY at were the
            greedy capitalists who were infesting the Temple with their perfidy and thievery.

            I can’t find encouragement to hate anyone personally. There is no such scripture.

            Also there is actually another scripture that shows his anger and that too is was
            about fulfilling the prophecies. It was when he was calling the scribes and Pharisee
            hypocrites some people felt he was angry then too. He was teaching that those
            people, expected to be the leaders of the Hebrew faith, were not teaching properly because they did not live what they taught. He was telling us to teach God’s Word accurately, and live the way it outlines to have a good life. Not to teach one way and hypocritically behave another way. One of the things he is very clear is about whether or not we follow his Word, and what it includes when we are not behaving the way a man of God should be because it reflects on Jesus and it is not the way he wants the leaders of our faith to behave.

            You really do not have a good understanding, and I am not trying to insult you so please do not take offense by that. Besides, I have found some Christians do not understand what this was about either. It is told in scriptures, but I will use common words to tell you instead.

            There is *no* place in Scripture where a loving monogamous
            sexual relationship between two people of the same gender is condemned. Not

            You mean other than that God made male and female as companions for each other, and then he showed his dislike for that other behavior? Right?

            And surely you know that the ‘sin of Sodom’ had nothing to
            do with homosexuality, right? Ezekiel should have set you straight on that:
            “Look! This was the sin of your sister Sodom and her daughters: Pride, too much food, undisturbed peace, and failure to help the poor and needy. ” (Ezekiel 16:49)

            48 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her
            daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters. [SHE WAS WORSE THAN THOSE
            PEOPLE OF SODOM]

            49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride [A SIN IN ITSELF], fulness of
            bread [WHICH IS GLUTTONY – A SIN], and abundance of idleness [WHICH IS LAZINESS, ALSO CONSIDERED A SIN] was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. [something God wanted us to do – it’s in a different scripture]

            50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination (which is an act/sin he will not
            talk openly about.] before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

            You did not allow for the rest of the context. As you can see, the abomination that points to homosexuality and anything this woman did was also against God’s law about adultery.

            She did a lot of immoral things that are going against God’s Word about marriage and various ways of sexual things too, including any and all abominations that she committed. BTW God told us not to talk about the actions in sin that are committed by other people and he always called the things he hated abominations. The word is made very obvious when it is used when it is explained by God.

            (gee, the above sounds AWFULLY familiar – lots of pride, lots of food, lots of failure to help the poor and the needy – but no, the crazy preachers blame
            homosexuals and feminists for hurricanes and earthquakes – go figure!)

            Really? Preachers blame those things on God’s natural disasters? I believe he has a better reason that some people who sin that way. He told us that everyone will be judged and the ones that sin against His Word are the ones we have to ensure they know the truth about Salvation by repentance, and that it was his love was his reason for dying on the cross. Someone who only knows a small amount about Salvation will not give up their personal desires the way the believers have done.

            If you’re going to go all the way back to Leviticus, then you’re going to need to explain why eating pork and shellfish is ok, but this one particular old law still applies. Good luck with that.

            It’s funny that you think it is not ok to eat anything because according to the example that was given where Paul had a spiritual dream of a blanket/sheet being lifted up and down and with the Lord telling him to eat, while he – agreeing with you – did not eat anything the God had told them not to eat. The Lord persevered and on the 3rd time he told Peter than nothing God made was unclean, and that in that story he was soon called to be with Gentiles who did not follow the same laws, and he would be required to eat what they eat. He was able to because God showed him before that point was
            reached that it was ok to eat it. That’s what that is about. That one particular old law only applies to the Hebrews who do not believe what the Gospel said about Jesus. Otherwise they know the same story and believe the same would be true for them as well as they are men of God too.

            If you want me to give you scriptures instead of not using them but using what the reason they were given I can do that. I expect believers to study the scriptures when I explain things to them, as we need to do that for anyone who tells us what the Bible says to confirm it’s Truth. But although you have some scriptures, I have no idea how much or how little you know to be able to give all explanations that way. So if it is ok for me to go with explanations of scriptures without the scriptures, that’s fine, but I can
            find them too. It just takes longer for me to reply.

          • Netizen_James

            >The Golden rule is not why they promoted Christianity, it was because the majority of people were Christian when it was started. It had nothing to do with treating each other the way they want to be treated.<

            Yes, you explained that perfectly, though likely not intentionally. The school administrator's decision to promote Christianity was itself anti-Christian in that it has nothing to do with treating others the way they would want to be treated. If you don't want your government teachers to promote reincarnation and the worship of Baal, then you can't allow government teachers to promote Heaven/Hell and the worship of Jesus. Any argument to the contrary results in government favoring SOME religions as 'more true' than OTHER religions. See how that works? See how neither 'history' nor 'tradition' affect that dynamic in any way? Do you understand the logical fallacy of 'special pleading'?

          • Eldrida Urika

            But you don’t seem to be understanding me when I say I won’t argue about religion being in a government or an Education system. You seem to be reading my explanations and suggested view of the issue as disagreement, instead of what I intend them to be. I wasn’t disagreeing with you, I was trying to get you to understand the other side so that you could be more compassionate about their situation. Obviously you read to a certain point and write your reply on that point. If you had mentioned that you do not read longer posts, I would have made my points clearer first then explained them further for the people who read our post to understand, as you are not “hearing” me at all.
            Every time you reply, you are very aggressive towards me as a person, including about my faith. I do not feel I deserve to be treated without respect as I have been respectful towards you and your obvious hatred and misunderstanding of Christianity. I have only shown you the WHY people are resisting, and have not supported the resistance, but have pointed out that they KNOW they will be forced to end the practice but then I explained the human emotions that go with being forced to give something up that anyone holds dear to them. As I said, Stop putting words in my mouth and stop deciding how I will support my faith like that. You obviously have not been reading with an open mind to what I was saying. Up until now, I was enjoying our discussion because of the respect I thought you were giving me and I showed to you, and it made the conversation less frustrating to continue. If you read my replies you would not be saying it like it is me personally who thinks and acts the way you are talking about, instead of limiting your remarks because you are aware that even if you know no other good Christians, you can’t miss that I have not acted badly towards you and I’ve told you that I never behave badly towards others in any way. My words were for you to help you deal with the issues about religion with an eye on the people, not on just the religion, so you can work it out knowing why people of faith hesitate to take it out of an environment where it has ‘always’ been. If you would rather think every Christian behaves in a power induced privileged way, you will be wrong and that will be your downfall. We are not like those who impose their beliefs on others. Like I said, start asking – like doing a survey – to find out how many of the people you cross paths with, or see more regularly and interact with are Christian. How many times you’ve thought “what a nice person” and that person was a Christian? How many times has someone made you smile because they did something nice for someone else while you looked on, and that person was a Christian? We don’t jump out and yell at people about sin, we are quieter in our belief that we are supposed to show good behavior so others will want to come to Jesus, and threats are the opposite of what Jesus ever said. He simply stated that the people who have been taught the gospel know what the consequences are and they make a choice with that knowledge right there. They are the ones that choose to take a chance that the punishment will not happen, and that is what Jesus give us is the free will to choose whether or not to follow Him. To Jesus it is like people who know are shrugging their shoulders and going oh well, to the thought of eternal punishment in Hell. If anyone put any thought into that image of themselves being tormented constantly in a very hot place, often by the same methods that you showed to others, at least that’s the way I think of it, before I say no thank you!
            You should really apply the golden rule the way it was intended to be applied. It would make more friends I expect. Seriously, why would you still be aggressive towards me at all if you had been reading my posts? I can’t keep banging my head against a wall that is your refusal to open your eyes to what I am saying. You have not implied that you have had any understanding about what I said. Not at all. All you have done is list the things you are angry about to imply that I agree with your opposers who I don’t and have said as much with each of my replies. Sorry, I can’t keep it up anymore because of your disrespect. I want a discussion that has both sides reading each other’s words to be able to consider them, not to just ignore them. I feel discussion is where people can come to understanding each others viewpoints without needing to feel like one side is better than the other side. Understanding the two sides by both sides is necessary to be able to make any reasonable decisions about either of their needs. When we try to understand, it makes us allow for what they need to be included with what we need, even if that means giving up something to accommodate it because we understand better why they need it.
            I’ll give you an example: When someone is rude and treats everyone around themselves badly when it is not ‘normal’ for the person, people will question why it happened, right? So while there is no explanation the various reactions will be simply accepting, to outright criticism of his actions. Once everyone discovers that the man had had something traumatic in their life that caused this behavior and in our minds, justified it, we are better able to settle it in our minds with the matter being more or less closed. Knowing the reason was the key because it made it sound more reasonable to the ones who were reacting with criticism. If however the man had announced the trauma before his behavior, or even during it, the others would have shown compassion and empathy for the situation and help the man with his emotions before there could be a worse outburst. We can’t get along with each other without understanding other people’s view and fitting it in with our own, so both have an equal chance to grow on their own. Denying someone the ability to explain the reasons and with understanding thing can be obtained with peace and not strife. Its when people demand it’s their way or the highway that gives a natural resistance to what the demand is. People do not take demands and just give in, especially people who know about other societies where the people are forced to do a lot more and they will not accept that in their own country.
            I don’t feel like you really read my posts with any attempt to understand and try to benefit from my words at all. I was very obvious how I respected your view, and tried to help you understand why things were the way they are. I’m not reaching you.

          • Netizen_James

            >I was trying to get you to understand the other side so that you could be more compassionate about their situationyou are very aggressive towards me as a person I do not feel I deserve to be treated without respect as I have been respectful towards you and your obvious hatred and misunderstanding of Christianity.I explained the human emotions that go with being forced to give something up that anyone holds dear to them…. If you would rather think every Christian behaves in a power induced privileged way, you will be wrong and that will be your would not be saying it like it is me personally who thinks and acts the way you are talking aboutI want a discussion that has both sides reading each other’s words to be able to consider them, not to just ignore them.I was very obvious how I respected your view,We don’t jump out and yell at people about sin<

            So none of those jerks who hang out at Planned Parenthood and yell at the women, and wave bloody pictures of fetuses in their faces – none of those are 'Christians'? Do you really think that if you polled those 'alt-right' neonazi twats who marched in Charlotte yelling about 'blood and soil' and how the 'Jews will not replace us', you wouldn't find one who called themselves a 'Christian'? I think you need to open your eyes.

            You only started thinking I was disrespectful when I wouldn't accept your PRATT clobber-verses about homosexuality in the Bible. When I actually started challenging you to THINK about how Jesus would want us to treat loving peaceful people who just happen to be homosexuals, THEN you started asserting that I was being mean to you. Sorry, I consider it a public duty to make people THINK.

          • Eldrida Urika

            If you had the understanding that I have of the Bible, you would recognize things that are not being done by those Christians. I’ll even point a scripture out for you that they are not being like what Jesus told us to include in our lives. Galatians 5:22-23. If those are not apparent in a Christian’s behavior they are false Christians as it is by our fruits that we are known and can be confirmed as followers of Jesus. So if a Christian professes that they are Christian then you should be able to see at least some of those fruits and the
            attempts of any others listed, depending on how new to Christianity they are. It is how I am with anyone I cross paths with. I have never treated anyone badly in my life and have never even intentionally hurt someone’s feelings, or told lies. I was like that from when I was a very young child until the day I joined my church so it was not hard for me to behave like I learned from the bible. If people do not show those qualities they do not follow Jesus.
            So now go back and really read what I have posted over the discussion and you will see what I have said and realized that you were trying to make me out to be a bigot when I am not one. One can be Christian without being a bigot you know. I know lots of Christians who are not bigots. Maybe you should change your searches to include True Christians or ask it what the bible says that a Christian should be like in behavior and in voice. It is not what you seem to think it is, nor what I have repeated you it is not. So before you reply with anything else, look at my replies for the answers there. Most of them appear to be there considering you have asked so many things. Try that, and if you still feel that I am exactly how you think a Christian is, rather than how I truly behave, you win. I won’t say another thing against your view. I know I have not taken my own understanding of anything I have said from the bible. I know what I have said has not agreed with anything you have said that I MUST agree with. You need to read them again. I’m not answering another post without an apology for the way you have talked about me and to me like I was someone I am not.

            So if you want to continue with this, I expect you to go over those first before we can continue. I feel you owe me an apology for not reading my posts since my personal opinion of each thing is clearly stated with every explanation of what the Christian point of view is, or what the HUMAN reasoning is for some of the things you try so hard to say it is selfishness when it does not have to looked at it in such a cynical way. Your reasoning is using too wide of a brush for every Christian and you cant seem to accept that people can and are different than how you think they are. Not everyone is going to agree in a group of any size, but between the faiths there are many reasons that they split from the Church that they did and it is because of disagreement about how to interpret God’s Word that makes that split.
            Not every Christian is the same. Not every fireman is the same. Not every teacher is the same. Not every lawyer is the same. I Thank God that there is so many different kinds of people. And if you group everyone together and try to say that every one of those people think the same way (or believe in the same way) then that is discrimination on your view. It is like saying every Italian love to eat spaghetti with garlic bread and a salad. It is just not a true statement any more than saying all Christians behave in the exact same way in the exact same situation about the exact same issue. It is not true, and it is impossible to be accurate with statements like that. So get real and stop saying Christians when you should be stating very firmly that SOME CHRISTIANS, NOT ALL are like what you describe. Otherwise it is a lie. A Flat out lie. So if that is what you have meant all the long, then you had better start adding the word SOME to every post you describe Christians in. Otherwise you are misinforming anyone who is not able to realize your mistake and think it is right to think like a bigot. I am far more tolerant of others of every sort than you are of Christians as far as I have understood from your posts. Even with my patient attempts to open your eyes to compassion and empathy, you resisted listening. If you can’t recognize what I am saying as how you are, you need to find someone you trust to be honest with you. You need compassion and empathy to understand another person, no, another Human’s reasons for how they act when it is certain issues. You seem to have those for other causes, but not for the Christians who are not like those you are angry with. As far as I can tell, you aren’t angry with Christians as much as you are angry with God. Think about that and maybe you will find enlightenment.

          • Netizen_James

            Re (Ezekiel 16:49) “You did not allow for the rest of the context. As you can see, the abomination that points to homosexuality and anything this woman did was also against God’s law about adultery.”

            No, nothing in Ezekiel says ANYTHING about homosexuality. NOTHING. There is NOTHING in Scripture which identifies the ‘sin of Sodom’ as being anything other than pride, greed, and a callous disregard for strangers/travelers, and the poor. You have not shown otherwise. Not even with the word ‘abomination’ in verse 50

            Yes, like all other mammals, and many other animals, humans use sex to create variance in the genetic code, which then gives rise to the phenotypic variants that then give some individuals a competitive advantage, and thus evolution can happen more quickly, and species can respond to environmental changes fast enough to survive. It appears that one evolution strategy is to increase the desire for males among females, but that one ‘downside’ to this strategy is the increase in desire for males among some males, leading to homosexuality. This is a genetic trait that is passed down by the mother’s side of the family. All available evidence supports the idea that homosexuals are born, not made. It’s an inborn characteristic – like eye color or nose shape – not a ‘choice’.

            There is NOTHING in Scripture which condemns homosexuality per se. There is NOTHING in Scripture which condemns loving monogamous sexual relationships between two people of the same gender. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either ignorant of Scripture, or has some other agenda that includes deception, or have themselves been deceived. If C.S. Lewis’ take on things can be used, this “hate the gays” doctrine is the work of the demons working for Their Father Below, spreading hatred and dissent as a cancer to the Body of Christ.

            God is love. So how can love be wrong?

          • Eldrida Urika

            You know what, I disagree and we’ll just have to accept that we will disagree what the scripture are intended to mean.
            The thing is, I have made it very plain that I do not agree with denying a person’s equal rights in any case, but if it is because someone thinks Jesus would approve, I am a strong opponent to that belief. My Jesus was a loving kind person who showed us compassion towards all people, even knowing the they were all sinners. It doesn’t matter whether someone thinks one sin is worse than another or not, God made that very clear when he told us he is no respecter of persons, in that one sin is equal to another sin and will be punished in the same way without regard to one’s wealth or position in society at the time of their death. His view is that he can see the motivation behind everything we do, and can see the darkness of evil thoughts that we as humans cannot see.
            I have a completely different view about the majority of things we have discussed, than how you think a Christian is like. You must realize that. As I said, I’d love to know where you got your view of the bible. Were you a child brought up in a strict Christian home that you came to rebel from? A lot of dissenters have been, so I’m not trying to make fun of that. I have cousins that were in a very military family and were brought up even stricter than Christians often are. I know from experience how it feels to feel like I’ve been punished for not being proper in exactly the right way every time with no exceptions, kind of attitude. Mind you that punishment is a verbal lashing.
            As I have mentioned in another reply, I can’t keep discussing things with someone who won’t even try to give my reply enough value to bother to read. I am sorry.

          • Eldrida Urika

            I went through the same question not that long ago and that is one of the things I leave to God because I can’t understand it and I need Him to help me to. If not in this time, I will be told in the by and by if I am even interested then.
            I agree about it but it is not taking away that it was stated as a sin.
            God is love and Love is not wrong, it is the sex that is the sin, not the love.
            And nothing you try will change those words to say anything else. It is clear to anyone who is not trying to find a way to have homosexuals go to heaven for eternity, that it is a sin, but no matter what the issue, EACH of us have a responsibility to take care of our own salvation and if a gay chooses to have 2 of the same gender kind of sex, it is his/her choice to make. Lots of people do not believe in God and they can manage; If it is important to you then talk to a man of God and if he is a good shepherd then he will help you as an individual to help you with this. Otherwise accept that fact that the love is not a sin, but the sex is a sin and that is what gays have to repent for.
            It’s God’s Word, not man’s, and man cannot change the words, or the meanings of the words.
            I think the love that Jesus wants for us to have for each other is to be able to live comfortably and happy here without strife and conflict with others. Once the day of Judgement comes it is only Jesus that can look at each person’s sin and decided if there was enough love to have a multitude of sins forgiven. I don’t know. I can’t know. I am not Jesus. So it is up to everyone who chooses not to follow Jesus to also decide if they can accept the consequences that were explained in Salvation. That is where they can decide to live for eternity, or die and be tormented for eternity. It is not other Christians that are at fault with the scriptures. It is only God who made them for us to follow, we had nothing to do with what he said, other than to obey him.
            Gays are given the same choice to make. No one can blame God for what they choose to do with their lives knowing the consequences that were told to them. The bottom line is that we make our own choice with the exact same information available to us as it is to everyone, so if gays make the choice not to follow Jesus, it is their life and their death that is in peril, not ours. Just theirs.
            I am not in any way being discriminating nor hateful about gays with what I have said here because all it is is an explanation, not a personal opinion.

          • Eldrida Urika

            I thought I had posted this before now…
            I think the reason you are so confused is that you kept taking my replies as disagreements instead of my attempt at helping you understand that some of the things you are upset about are minor in the face of how the world has been recently.
            I wanted you to realize that other people act in the same way emotionally to things when they are told that something they hold dear is taken away. It’s no different for Christians than it is for anyone else when these things happen. It hurts, it makes us want to resist. We have to be considerate when others are made to feel bad, no matter what we feel, just because if it turned around we would want people to show us understanding and compassion too.
            I don’t agree with discrimination and I don’t believe that Jesus would either. He told us to love everyone and did not make exceptions.
            I think that the people who made it seem like it was OK to own slaves felt the scriptures said it – because it did outline what slaves were and how they should be treated, but it was also in a time of life when they killed complete villages and anyone who was not killed was taken back to be a “slave” as much to not leave them to die, as to provide them with the needs of life, and to allow them to work for their keep. The people who were abusive to the slaves were going directly against the Word of God, as he said not to treat the slaves badly.
            God does not have things happen without a reason, so I try to see the bringing of African people to be slaves is also how the black race came to America and other places in the world, who would not have likely been brought out to come much before the newer immigrants started to come here. Their history would have been very different if they had not been brought here as slaves and gone through nothing that has brought them to the point that they are living now. They likely would have stayed in their original place for a long time afterwards. It wasn’t a good time of life for people, but it did provide other things than just hurting people. I try to look at the positive things even in rough situations to see things that happen with the bad times that are good for people. It’s not always possible, but it helps take some of the doom and gloom away in those times.
            I rarely argue with anyone whether I am “right” and they are “wrong”; I would rather discuss the two sides and if they can’t come to an agreement, then agree to disagree. I find communication to be a valuable tool to understanding each others views, and when we understand them, we are not as aggressive about whether we feel we are “right”. Besides, I was taught we should learn something new every day, so I am always interested in how other people think. It has allowed me to put myself in other people’s position to know how they feel, and that helps me connect with them. It helps me to help others with their problems as well.
            I’m sorry if I made you think that I was disagreeing rather than trying to help you to see the other side of the situation.
            I am a Christian that follows Jesus very closely and I believe that His message was about loving one another so we don’t want to hurt them, and because of that we will not want to sin to bring pain to another person. He wants us to stop ‘sinning’ so the love will be prevalent over hate. It makes sense, but the selfishness of the flesh is too much when people don’t understand why Jesus came to earth and died for us.
            Many people think that Jesus wants to control us in a bad way, but really he just wants us to be able to live without the stress of other people trying to bring harm to people. He wants the love to be stronger than the hate. When you recognize that his desire is to spread the love instead of needing control, it makes it a different thing to consider. God wants the peace for us that everyone wants in their lives themselves too.
            It says in the bible that he wants us to take his “yoke” and that it is not a heavy yoke to carry. It is simply saying that he asks us to use his commands to help us live without either hurting ourselves or others. He isn’t asking for us to do something hard, it is just to be good people to each other. The hardest thing for most people who do not want to follow Jesus is to stop wanting to do things for their own pleasure without considering how it can affect others or even their own conscience being harmed by it. For instance, God never said not to drink, he told us not to drink (or eat) in excess, as it is not a good thing for your body. He was trying to take care of us when he told us that.
            Giving up our own control of things we want to do what we want to do, is not easy if you think of it negatively of course. But when you consider that by living a careful life (so you won’t sin/harm) it makes us have a happier existence makes a difference to us.
            Knowing that someone won’t be selfish when you need something is nice. Knowing that when you walk down the street and drop your wallet someone would return it in tact because that is what they would expect someone else to do, is a lot better than someone selfish who uses the things inside rather than return it, but if everyone tried to not sin, that would not happen. It’s unfortunate that everyone doesn’t want to have the peace following Jesus would give us all. Of course, that is my opinion, and not all people of faith believe that. That’s where the different faiths can have different views and do their work for the Lord in different ways to reach different people.
            I don’t agree with anything being done to someone that is going to harm them in any way intentionally. If it will harm someone, it is being done the wrong way. If it is done intentionally it is just wrong.
            A lot of people do not know the whole story of Salvation by repentance but only bits and pieces and the bits and pieces make it sound like hardship instead of being a way towards peace. It isn’t that hard to be a good person who thinks before they act.
            I just felt that you need to look at the other side of things when it is about other people who are trying to hold onto something they personally hold dearly in their lives. I’ve had trouble finding something that you would for sure know how it is important to you and your life, that I could compare how they feel to it. But that is what I have tried to show you. It isn’t about wanting the right, it’s about not wanting to let go to something that has meaning to them, whether it is a flag or just the fact that they have always done something and now they have had it removed from their lives against what they felt was important to their own lives. Letting go of things is not easy for anyone and these people are no different. They know how the world is moving and they are aware of how many other changes have happened all over the States, and knowing about them makes them even more desperate to hold on to what is comforting to them to have.
            It has to be looked at without the Christian faith as the upper issue and realize that it is just the comfort given to those who are used to it that makes this school try to resist the facts. Not that they insist they should have the right to, but that they find comfort in something that has been a reality for them.
            I know this was long but I wanted to help you understand (hopefully) what I see when I see this kind of issue, even as a Christian myself. Hopefully I helped others to understand Christianity in a different way too.
            I have truly enjoyed our discussion as it was not full of hate for each other, and it has exchanged views with each other. Thank you!
            Blessings Netizen! Let me know if you want to discuss anything else!

      • mensajohn

        If something that is being kept just because it is historical needs a large disclaimer attached to the item that the local or federal government does not promote or endorse any religion and it is here only because of it historical significance of violating the first amendment and/or part of the property prior to the government purchasing it at the very least.

  • Mr Cleats

    Funny how atheists are OK with fanaticism, so long as they’re the ones doing it.

    • zeddicuskotor

      So why are you against the Constitution then?

      • Jerome Horwitz

        WHO is?

        • zeddicuskotor

          You are.

          • Jerome Horwitz

            Trolling now?

          • zeddicuskotor

            Not my fault you cannot read your own comments.

    • Netizen_James

      Expecting government to obey the law is ‘fanaticism’? Really?

  • A3Kr0n

    The attendee who thinks the FFRF has a “distorted and inaccurate view of the separation of Church and State in the First Amendment” should look at their legal track record. They win almost all of their lawsuits, which means the courts agree with them. They know they law.
    If the Christian religion is so important to our government as Noah Webster wrote, why is it never mentioned in the Constitution? The only place religion is mentioned is Article VI Section 3 prohibiting any religious test for office, and the 1st amendment. I’m pretty sure everybody who wants the Christian flag flown at the school would think twice if it was an Islamic flag. The FFRF would fight that, too.

    • Jerome Horwitz

      The attendee who thinks the FFRF has a “distorted and inaccurate view of the separation of Church and State in the First Amendment” should look at their legal track record.

      Their statement is factually correct. The Freedom From Religion Foundation exists for the sole purpose of censoring Christian speech and expression. They are a hate group. This is something that’s above and beyond debate or discussion.

      If the Christian religion is so important to our government as Noah Webster wrote, why is it never mentioned in the Constitution?

      The only place religion is mentioned is Article VI Section 3 prohibiting any religious test for office, and the 1st amendment.

      A contradiction.

      I’m pretty sure everybody who wants the Christian flag flown at the school would think twice if it was an Islamic flag. The FFRF would fight that, too.

      Baloney. No school has flown an Islamic flag, but schools and universities have offered prayer rooms and courses in Islam, for which the FFRF has given absolute silence. This has been gone over many times already.

      • A3Kr0n

        The FFRF exists to protect our secular government from religious intrusion. The only time they act is when someone asks them for help. This is not above and beyond debate.
        What is a contradiction? I don’t understand.
        You don’t think the FFRF would fight the removal of an Islamic flag? They sure would. They’ve already filed a complaint against a Muslim college professor promoting his religion in the classroom, and protested a Buddhist shrine on public land in California. They’ve also sent letters to the mayors of Philadelphia and Dallas for hosting Iftar events to honor Ramadan. The FFRF does support prayer rooms in schools as long as they’re open to everyone of all religions, or none.

        • Eldrida Urika

          Do you believe an Islamic would allow a Christian to pray in the prayer room while they are praying? Good luck with that.

          • Netizen_James

            Got any evidence to the contrary, or are you just making stuff up as you go along? What makes you think ‘an Islamic’ would have any authority over who may or may not use the ‘prayer room’ and for what purposes at any given time?

  • It is their town, their school and that gives them the right to fly the Christian flag anywhere and in anyway in their community that they want to.

    • Croquet_Player

      It most certainly does not. People may fly religious flags all they like on private property. They have no right to do anything of the sort on public property.

      • Wrong.

        • Croquet_Player

          No, it’s not wrong. As you’ll soon find out when the school removes the flag.

          • Go to your safe spot. It will be okay for you.

          • Croquet_Player

            I’m perfectly safe, thanks. Because I have a constitution which protects me from religious zealots.

          • ROFLMBO!!! You are nuttier than a pet racoon.

          • Croquet_Player

            Aw, how cute. Insults. the favorite retreat of those with no argument. The flag is coming down, Doug.

          • wandakate

            We’ll be here waiting to hear that it did, until then there is nothing else to discuss.

          • wandakate

            We here that agree with Doug understand that, however what you really will NEED protection from is the WRATH of Almighty GOD when the Bowl judgments hit the earth. The constitution on that day isn’t going to do you one iota of good.

          • wandakate

            IF that happens then they are wimps. They have caved in. They have bowed down to man and have NOT honored GOD. That flag is their symbol just like the US flag is the symbol of the USA. We either honor GOD or we honor man. Either Christians stand up for JESUS or they don’t. They are supposed to stand up for Him, He died for them They are supposed to be soldiers of the cross. They are to lift their royal banner so it does not suffer lost. They are to put on the whole armor of GOD.
            From victory unto victory, His army He will lead, till every soul knows who He is and CHRIST is LORD indeed…

        • Jerome Horwitz

          Remember: This is not about free speech or freedom of religion. For them, such things apply to everyone but Christians.

          This is about hate. Notice the only people defending this crap also won’t say anything condemning Islamic prayer rooms or China further tightening restrictions on religion to worsen the persecution of Christians (with the sole exception of MCrow).

          These bigots are not welcome here. Period.

          • Netizen_James

            bologna. Yes, if you want to find REAL Christian persecution, look at our ‘allies’ in China and Saudi Arabia.

            No, preventing SOME people from illegally using the civil authority to promote THEIR religion as the ‘officially correct’ religion is not any sort of ‘persecution’. If your town were to start promoting reincarnation as the ‘officially correct’ belief regarding the ‘afterlife’, you would understand this better. All US Citizens are perfectly free to express and practice their religion, on their OWN dime, on their OWN time, on their OWN property. NO government entities, including schools, have any ‘rights’ whatsoever, more less any ‘right’ to promote or encourage any religious belief whatsoever.

            No, the ACCOMMODATION of the religious needs of students isn’t any sort of infringement on anyone’s rights, unlike the LACK of such accommodation would be. If your religion requires you to pray at certain times of the day, then the school MUST accommodate that religious requirement. If your religion requires you to wear a yarmulke, the public school MUST accommodate that religious requirement, and modify any dress codes appropriately. Same deal.

          • Netizen_James

            Freedom of religion necessarily requires freedom from government endorsement or promotion of any religion.

          • Eldrida Urika

            Why is it not just about new things being displayed instead of things of historical meaning? Anything that is a hundred years old should be considered historical shouldn’t it, even if it goes against what the government must do today, it was allowed back then. Taking it away takes away 100 years of history about that display.

          • Netizen_James

            History does not justify government infringing our right to religious freedom by endorsing or promoting (or prohibiting or enjoining) any religious anything. The only stance of government toward religion which respects the right of The People to religious freedom is one of strict neutrality. The flag in question was created in 1907. The school in question was built in around 1960, best as I could find. So this ‘historical tradition’ excuse for a promotion of ‘government religion’ simply doesn’t hold any water.

            Slavery was ‘historical’ too. So we should ‘honor’ that history? No, we should condemn the entire notion that any human being can be ‘owned’ as if they were a pig or a sheep. And we honor the abolitionists, many of whom were abolitionists *because* they were Christians, for fighting against that evil.

            Not letting women vote was ‘historical’ too. So should we ‘honor’ that history? No. We honor those women who fought, and bled, for that right, against the forces opposed to gender-equality (which included then, and still includes today, many religious organizations and traditions).

            Anyone who doesn’t understand the motivations behind the founder’s decision to create a secular government should read up on the Philadelphia Bible Riots (more history!), where Christians were at each other’s throats over /which version/ of the Bible was to be taught in the public schools. The only answer that respects the religious liberty of all citizens/students/taxpayers is NONE.

          • Eldrida Urika

            I didn’t say all of the displays but some are about history of America because there were so many Christians. It’s still history. And it was never intended to be an offense at the time it was put on the land.
            I don’t want to push Christianity. I don’t believe that pushing my belief on others will bring them to Jesus. I believe it must be done with love and compassion for all. It is about choosing Jesus, not being pushed into it.
            It just sounds more and more like you want to erase Christianity not that the displays are in your intentions. like once they are gone lets make them go underground, Like really? The way some people go after Christianity in the government make it sound like that is the next planned step. It’s been done to many Christians in many lands.
            Why should someone who hates be the one who chooses?
            Like I said, you are angry at the wrong Christian. Go get angry with the Jerome you mentioned. Maybe you’ll get farther with them.

          • Netizen_James

            Again, neither history nor tradition can justify infringing on the rights of US Citizens to be free from government promotion of religion. Contrary to your assertions, many of these statues and markers were put in place specifically and explicitly to proclaim the ‘other-ness’ of those who don’t believe in YHWH or Jesus. To proclaim, falsely, that the US is a ‘Christian nation’ and that non-Christians are merely recipients of the benevolence of Christian tolerance, not actually full and equal citizens. In the same way that many of the statues erected supposedly to honor the traitorous losers of the confederacy were in fact erected to strike fear into the hearts of the black community, and remind them that reconstruction was over, and that they were now powerless again, and F- you. That was the point of many of those civil war statues to Lee and other rebel military leaders. These are exactly as offensive and inappropriate as a German Statute to the great German general Rommel would be in Germany. You don’t honor military people who were fighting for oppression and discrimination. Even if they were your great great grandfather.

          • Eldrida Urika

            As I have said before, History and anything to do with history is to stand to represent that fact that we learned from that period and we are not like that anymore. History is a lesson to learn in a newer age. If you didn’t learn that in school then they missed something.
            In life, anything that is hard on us, is a lesson to us to make ourselves a better person by what we have learned. That is how we grow. We don’t forget about those hard times, we use the lesson to not have it happen again.

            Besides, history cannot be changed just because some statues have been removed. It happened and a lesson was learned by what happened in history. People fight back when blacks are discriminated against; they didn’t then. And I’m not just talking about blacks, because it was white people who stopped slavery too.

            The majority of our nation is still white. So does that make anything our leaders do not worthwhile because they are white?
            I don’t believe the white race is supreme, but a lot of history was made by whites because of the balance of the races at those periods of time, not because we are supreme. Taking the things that happened in those times of ending slavery away means the lesson to stop slavery and discrimination is hidden instead of out in the open. They don’t have to represent the people who were the ones on the wrong side but that those on the wrong side were defeated and a new age without slavery was entered into.
            Is there any proof that the intentions in putting them up in the first place was to push white supremacy or is that what someone decided and it’s sticking because the even though the internet is amazing at spreading true information, it is also amazing at spreading False information as well. I’m not saying there is no proof, I would just like to verify what is being said on the ‘net.
            For anyone who has had a good history teacher, history is to show us how we made mistakes and learned from them. It happened and there is nothing anyone can do about it but if a lesson is learned from it, it makes it a positive from a negative. So I can believe that the statues were put up because the people felt they were part of history and whether you believe it or not, some of these statues are of people who did something good for the people who they lead, and it didn’t even have to do with racism. George Washington was a president so he was far more than a racist who had black mistresses and children with them. The fact of the matter is that that is what those times were like and many many people were slave owners. Even people who treated their slaves well, owned slaves. They didn’t behave the same way as the racists, but they still had slaves. That was what happened in that period of time and that was considered normal THEN.
            Then history showed us that the whole thing was wrong, and by the way, white soldiers and black soldiers put an end to it. It ended just as much because of white people and it started because of white people. It shows that even then, not all white people were racist and that is exactly what it is today. White people fought for the blacks freedom too, which seems to be forgotten while all this B.S. is about the negatives because whites did this – what about the positive that HEY the whites took the blacks OUT of slavery. Why go for the negative instead of the positive that came out of the negative. White people put blacks into slavery, but white people also took them out of it. I’ve often wondered when the black race would have gotten to this land if they had not been brought here to be slaves. They might not have come here until the same time as all the refugees for all we know. Why don’t people look at what was happening with a view of Joy that it is over, instead of feeling demeaned? It is those people who feel demeaned that need to look again and realize the joy that those statues should mean to them – those awful men were defeated. Because that is what history has recorded. History doesn’t say – Gee, our white supremacist actions didn’t work that time, but we’ll keep trying. It says that people didn’t agree, which when you think about it, is not unusual; it also says that the right side won against the wrong side, and that should mean something to everyone, not just the black race.
            People need to try to see good instead of evil in things. Yes this terrible time happened, but we are better people now because of it. Feeling unhappy about those statues is the wrong attitudes. These men were fought against and won them their freedoms. Hate them sure, but use them to represent the END of a bad time in history, not just as a continued reminder of the bad times.

          • james blue
          • Lark.62

            Schools must allow student religious observance that does not interfere with the school day.

            Christian students can legally gather at the flag pole to pray. Every day if they like. Christian clubs must be provided meeting space just like any other club. Christian students can and do study the bible at lunch.

            Muslim students have the same rights, this includes prayer outside of class time and being allowed to meet in a unsued classroom. Christians have the exact same rights.

            And last I checked, China is not governed by the United States Constitution.

          • Eldrida Urika

            Seems to me it would be pretty boring for you if everyone just agreed with what everyone said. That’s why there are so few comments on this board compared to before they did a mass banning of people who did not agree with certain Christians. Even Christians were banned who had different beliefs.
            Be careful what you wish for, it might come true and ruin your fun at arguing with everyone.

          • Netizen_James

            Nobody (except maybe Jerome!) is trying to quash anyone’s freedom of speech here. But note carefully that THE SCHOOL, as a government entity, has no ‘rights’, the SCHOOL has no ‘freedom of speech’. The school, as a government entity, has the authority to carry out it’s statutory mission under the regulations created by the legislature. That’s all. Nothing else. There is no statute granting the school any authority to promote or endorse any religion, nor could there be, as such a statute would be an unconstitutional violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment of the US Constitution. Thus, any such religious promotion by the school, (aka by school personnel acting in their official capacity), is unauthorized and illegal.

            Nobody cares about what flags students affix to their own personal vehicles – except possibly the local cops if they’re violating traffic code by reducing their field of vision.

          • Eldrida Urika

            I never said any of that. I’ll put it another way. There are things that are considered ‘OK’ if it is done by students with no one from the school involved and they can be about a religious thing. As long as no teacher is involved it is legal.
            At least if it isn’t legal there are a lot of articles that are saying the wrong thing.
            Why are you so adamant about it. Are you one of the citizens? I know there are a lot of things that are going on but this is petty compared to other things in the government that involve Christians.
            Life is about making choices. Like what to protest and what to support. But the other choice we have every day is whether we will have a good day or a day filled with anger. Feeling so strongly about a little town’s flag is sad. Please consider how little this one town is. I can see that it was a Christian town that has had people who are not Christian move into their town and now they want to make the Christian come out of the town. The town is going to fight that. It’s their town and it’s not easy to give up something when it has always been all Christians and no one ever complained.
            You expect them to just hand over their belief and give in to changes a smaller town may have trouble dealing with.
            The way I feel is that you just don’t like Christians. And it seems to be why you keep feeling so strongly about a flag.

          • Netizen_James

            >”There are things that are considered ‘OK’ if it is done by students with no one from the school involved and they can be about a religious thing. As long as no teacher is involved it is legal. “”Are you one of the citizens?””this is petty”<
            Compared to all the ways that our current POTUS is acting like the AntiChrist, yes, this is a pretty minor deal. But it's amazing how many petty people there are. Have you ever learned about the Philadelphia Bible Riots? Look it up if you haven't. That's the sort of petty bs that the first amendment would prevent if only people followed it.

            Would you still consider it a 'minor deal' if YOUR child's school was only flying the JEWISH flag, rather than the Protestant flag? Would you still consider it a 'minor deal' if y our child's public school officials were giving your child the impression that belief in reincarnation was what was normal and natural in our society? Are you capable of 'putting the shoe on the other foot' here?

          • Eldrida Urika

            yes I would look at it as a “minor” deal when it was strictly
            supposed to be for one day. Otherwise, Schools teach what they want until
            someone finds out and corrects it. I don’t believe in Evolution, but they teach
            that, and won’t teach that there is a Christian God at all, unless it is a
            different God more often than not. So why would I think that a flag would be a
            big deal.

            As far as my child being taught reincarnation? I believed in it for years but I
            don’t now. So what you learn in school is not what is necessarily directing
            your life when you are older. If I want my child to learn something in a
            certain way, I teach it to them myself. I am the one that is responsible for
            how my child grows up and that they grow up as a mature person able to make
            their own choices just like I did.

            Regarding Trump: he can’t be the Anti-Christ. He doesn’t know the bible well

            I will look that up but history does not mean that things are the same now. As a
            matter of fact history is what should teach us to be better human beings and
            end the things that are wrong, like slavery, but it is there to teach as much
            as it is a fact.

            I guess if I wasn’t a reasonable person I would object, but those things are
            very minor in the big picture of life and without proper guidance from parents,
            they will affect our children whether it is what we believe in or not. Unless we
            guide them as we do for a lot of things, our children should be capable,
            responsible adults. Religions all believe in that same thing. Children should
            be guided to achieve their biggest potential. So flags are just too minor for
            my trouble.

            When I read about the Satanist that was complaining about how Christians and
            Jews were the only ones who had displays around the Christmas season, I was
            curious about why that was, and the answer was easy; no one else celebrates at
            the time that those two religions do. They have their own celebrations when it
            is their holiday time.

            The point I am trying to make is that the things we complain about in our lives
            just aren’t very big when it is one person out of the whole of the United
            States who is unhappy. I don’t believe that the minority should ALWAYS be the
            winner in these things; there are times when it is just ridiculous to pander to
            one persons’ opinion when a whole area is opposed to that opinion. But I see it
            all the time now. One person can deny every single other person something that
            they hold dear as a tradition. That is not right. There should still be
            discussions to find a way to compromise, not just blanket everything and
            listen only to the minority. Look at what happened when someone
            complained that Merry Christmas “might offend” and suddenly it was
            like we were going to be fined if we said it in public at all. Then the Muslims
            came out and said that it was not necessary to change our Merry Christmas and
            there was never a problem in the first place.

            So I’d rather see our society be able to cope with more than one religion or
            anything else that people are trying to change from the traditions we hold
            dear, and communicate with each other and discuss the things not just give in
            to one side.

            It makes me wonder how many times someone has made that one complaint just
            because they have seen someone else get their way because of the minority
            rules. It sounds like something many people would do. Oh, IMO

          • Netizen_James

            Evolution is a fact. It doesn’t require anyone to ‘believe’ in it. Evolution has been OBSERVED. We know that new species can arise purely as a result of selection pressure. That’s evolution right there. You neither have to believe in it or understand it. It simply is. Evolution and common descent are real. Anyone telling you otherwise is trying to sell you something. Yes, human beings are animals, not that different from any of the other animals. All of us mammals use exactly the same enzymes for oxidative phosphorylation.

            Public schools are NOT ALLOWED to teach children that YHWH exists, because there is no EVIDENCE that this is a FACT. It’s a religious belief. it’s not knowledge. It’s a belief. If there were actual empirical evidence for such a contention, it would be knowledge, but there isn’t, so it’s not. Public schools are allowed to teach that there exists a set of believers we identify as ‘Christians’ who believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ. Just as they are allowed to teach that there exists a set of believers that we identify as ‘Hindus’ who believe different things.

            There is no evidence that the deity you happen to worship actually exists, any more than there is any evidence that any of the deities that you don’t happen to worship actually exist. (I’m presuming you’re an ‘atheist’ with respect to Odin and Zeus and Jupiter and Ra and all them gods, right? 🙂 )

            And this is the crux of the biscuit. Do you want the government and the school to promote YOUR beliefs as the right, true, and correct ones, but would be aghast at the idea of the government schools promoting beliefs that contradict your own? This is known, in some circles, as the ‘special pleading’ fallacy.

            Do you understand why laws against ‘blasphemy’ are unconstitutional? Do you know how recently a US Citizen has been convicted of that charge?

            And no, the ‘war on Christmas’ is a MYTH. Nobody is being told not to say ‘merry Christmas’. Nobody is getting thrown in jail for saying Merry Christmas. The whole thing is just nonsense created by Bill O’Reilly in order to sell advertising. But riddle me this – if someone said to you next spring ‘Ramadan mubarac’, what would your reaction be? Would you be surprised or shocked that they had PRESUMED that you were a Muslim? Is it ok to PRESUME that any given stranger is a Christian such that ‘merry Christmas’ is appropriate? Should you assume that any woman who is bald is going through chemotherapy for cancer? Is it really so hard to get used to the fact that *not everyone* is a Christian?

          • Eldrida Urika

            This is long because I went through your text above and put the replies in place with your text. Sorry.

            “Evolution is a fact..”

            Can you explain why the Apes that are around now, are not evolving into humans? Logically, if that is what is in our origins then they should still be evolving too. Seriously, I’ve never heard that explained clearly and it’s often the only question that I ask, because of my view.

            The Theory of Evolution, is a theory, not a fact. They can reproduce some things that seem to be consistent with what they have found before, but they can’t decide without proof that the earth was made without God. You can’t prove that it wasn’t, and you won’t accept the proof we offer. Evolution – beyond humans – could have been God’s planning all the long, but we did not come out of a swamp like matter and end up being apes and low and behold SOME apes became HUMAN!! Wow. NOT.

            You are welcome to take that theory and run with it all you and other
            believers want to. I don’t have to give an inch because if you want to believe that, you have every right, just like I do to have my belief. It’s quite likely that we won’t prove each other wrong because it would be impossible for you to be positive that the earth was “just so” and created all the things we have now like we all originated in a swamp. No we were made of dust. It makes a lot more sense than guck from a swamp to me and it always will. I am not interested in learning about it because I don’t believe that you can prove the earth was what the scientists Theorize it might have been. It isn’t important to my life. Your belief has no affect on my individual life. I don’t dwell on those kind of things. They are like flies and it just needs to be ignored for it to go away. I have no need of the knowledge because I trust and believe in my God which you simply do not believe in. I have no problem with you not believing but I would have a problem if you feel that your belief – again I am sorry – trumps my own when yours can’t be proven to me, any more
            than you will accept my belief has been proven to me. So lets drop that
            discussion altogether. I won’t address it anymore. I did not believe in Evolution ever in my whole life even before I became a Christian. I learned about it in school and dismissed it as, well, I felt it was stupid. So I have what I need to make a confident choice in what I believe.

            Public schools are NOT ALLOWED to teach children that YHWH exists, because there is no EVIDENCE that this is a FACT. It’s a religious belief. it’s not knowledge. It’s a belief. If there were actual empirical evidence for such a contention, it would be knowledge, but there isn’t, so it’s not. Public schools are allowed to teach that there exists a set of believers we identify as ‘Christians’ who believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ. Just as they are allowed to teach that there
            exists a set of believers that we identify as ‘Hindus’ who believe different
            things. </blockquote

            So, what about the religious classes that teach other religions and not Christianity? Why should their religions trump (sorry for that) Christianity? Because we are a Christian born nation; but what about the children of the other faiths? They won’t necessarily know about Christianity, so why are they only restricted with Christianity STILL. Introducing religions in any way at all, is missing a big chunk without
            the Christian belief, especially since it is the biggest belief globally.

            So how will you answer that for me? How is it ok to discriminate against teaching the same things that they are teaching about other religions by not allowing Christianity? And if you have been reading the articles here, you will see that that is exactly what is happening around the nation. Christians now are expected to fight against the discrimination because of the allowance of the others. There are a lot of Americans and immigrants that do not know the Christian faith at all. If you think they teach it along with the other religions you should do a search on

            It is a fact that many of the nation’s schools won’t allow Christian teachings at all, but will open their doors wide to others like Muslims and Jews and Sikh’s and more.

            So how about complaining about the other religions having a right over the US citizens that are Christian?

            There is no evidence that the deity you happen to worship actually exists, any more than there is any evidence that any of the deities that you don’t happen to worship actually exist. (I’m presuming you’re an ‘atheist’ with respect to Odin and Zeus and Jupiter and Ra and all them gods, right? 🙂 )

            Sorry but I know a lot of Christians who have had God prove himself to them, including my cousin with not being rained on for coming up 3 years now. I have also had him prove himself over and over.

            Unless you believe you won’t see the things that God does around you. So that kind of takes you out of the possibility of proof of God. He wants us to believe in him without “proof” so when you do believe, you get the evidence that He allows you to know about.
            It must depend on how strong your belief is to have a strong faith and trust in God whether you can see those things too, because I know Christians who do not see the evidence he gives us individually.

            Oh, and as far as Zeus and those other God’s I never knew anyone worships them. Aren’t they all myths? I know Zeus is a Roman or Greek myth and it’s never been considered true in anything I’ve read. It’s a story, a myth that was written as a myth.

            And this is the crux of the biscuit. Do you want the government and the school to promote YOUR beliefs as the right,
            true, and correct ones, but would be aghast at the idea of the government schools promoting beliefs that contradict your own? This is known, in some circles, as the ‘special pleading’ fallacy.

            See once again, you are not accepting who you are talking to here. I am not a Christian that goes with the flow of some of the Christians that are very loud and vocal about what they feel our rights are.

            The question should be: Do I want them to promote other religions BELIEFS as the right, true, and correct ones, when none of them are supposed to be taught as the right and true one, the lessons are supposed to be about the history and origins and I am not aghast so much as disgusted that they are teaching other religions and not Christianity in the false idea that everyone knows about Christianity when a large percentage do not. So how about if all religions are included or excluded because right now it is still excluding Christianity because of people like you who want no Christianity in schools. Does this mean you believe that what the other religions believe are true because you aren’t complaining about their religions being taught? Some of those teachings go way beyond what would be taught about the Christian religion.

            So you are wrong. I am not of the belief that ours should be considered any more special than any other religion, but I believe that it should be taught equally not denied the knowledge to the children of those schools, because of a prejudice to Christianity that is being ignored when it comes to other religions.

            Do you understand why laws against ‘blasphemy’ are unconstitutional? Do you know how recently a US Citizen has been convicted of that charge?

            Shouldn’t you ask what I believe in about blasphemy first before you condemn me for thinking in a certain way? I would not agree to a non-believer being charged with ‘blasphemy’ because to me that is something only a believer can do. It takes belief to really ‘insult’
            someone and most people who blasphemes are not believers, or not anymore. Christians only have one thing that is blasphemous and it was told to us in the Bible. We also know that non-believers are not the same as we are. So, again, No I don’t agree with the blasphemy laws. It would have been a lot shorter if you had asked if I believed in those things first, instead of deciding I am your conceived belief that a Christian “is”. You seem to have this mindset that if some Christians believe or act this way, that we are all the same and we are not. Also, it is the Muslim belief that want’s blasphemers to be jailed or worse, not the Christians normally.

            And no, the ‘war on Christmas’ is a MYTH. Nobody is being told not to say ‘merry Christmas’. Nobody is getting thrown in jail for saying Merry Christmas. The whole thing is just nonsense created by Bill O’Reilly in order to sell advertising.

            Well, that’s interesting that you believe that when I can refer you to governments that actually were considering fining people for it. There were many places that did ask their employees to only say happy holidays to anyone in or out of their companies.

            Many of the fast food companies told their employees not to say Merry Christmas to the customers, and a large number of companies will no longer put up a Christmas tree, or they will but call it a Holiday Tree. So maybe you should look around the world and find out that there are lots of places that have removed Merry Christmas from the public.

            But riddle me this – if someone said to you next spring ‘Ramadan mubarac’, what would your reaction be? Would you be surprised or shocked that they had PRESUMED that you were a Muslim? Is it ok to PRESUME that any given stranger is a Christian such that ‘merry Christmas’ is appropriate? Should you assume that any woman who is bald is going through chemotherapy for cancer? Is it really so hard to get used to the fact that *not everyone* is a Christian?

            I think I would be shocked or surprised if anyone thought I was a Muslim just because I do not look like them, but it would not make me angry. I’m old, white, gray haired, and my skin tends to glow when I am around others who darker than I am because I am of the palest of whites. But, why should it bother me if someone thinks that.? If I felt the need, or had the ability to correct them, I would because I am an honest person, not because of anything I believe is just about Christians. But should someone’s misconceptions bother me? It’s kind of like you being so aggressive with me when I am not the kind of Christian that would agree with the things you chose to list.

            You saw my answer about Merry Christmas. It is being removed from our society and the funniest part of all is that it isn’t a Christian saying in the first place; It started off about Jesus but once Santa came along it had too much competition. Jesus didn’t give presents every year, and young children were quite enthralled with that idea. It’s more about commercialized goods than it is about the birth of Christ and it isn’t something that Christians even celebrate with Santa and all. We can celebrate Jesus’ birth/life at any time, or place; the only difference would be that the whole Christian Church globally will be celebrating his birth on the same day. No one is restricted to that day for celebrating Jesus in our lives either.

            I think you should find another Christian to have these conversations with. I am not the kind of Christian you are expecting me to be. I don’t resist it when someone says something about their religion to me and be rude! I would at the very least smile, and join in the festivities that are not intruding on my own beliefs.

            You see, I do not believe in behaving the way you think all Christians do. I’m not critical of everything around me that is not Christian. I am not rude to anyone no matter who they are. I am much more likely to hug someone that frown at them. My belief tells me to love everyone without exception. That is how I live my life, showing the goodness of Jesus and what he is offering to the people who are not aware of him, by my behavior. THAT is how a Christian who follows Jesus should be. So the Christians you believe in, are not the same as others.

            “Evolution is a fact. It doesn’t require anyone to ‘believe’
            in it. Evolution has been OBSERVED. We know that new species can arise purely as a result of selection pressure. That’s evolution right there. You neither have to believe in it or understand it. It simply is. Evolution and common descent are real. Anyone telling you otherwise is trying to sell you something. Yes, human beings are animals, not that different from any of the other animals. All of us mammals use exactly the same enzymes for oxidative phosphorylation.”

            Can you explain why the Apes that are around now, are not evolving into humans? Logically, if that is what is in our origins then they should still be evolving too. No, really, I’ve never heard that explained before. Just please don’t go too heavily into the evolution idea but more about something specific that happened to stop that from happening. Like disease, or a mutant gene, or a swamp water they drank.

            The Theory of Evolution, is a theory, not a fact. They can reproduce some things that seem to be consistent with what they have found before, but they can’t decide without proof that the earth was made without God. You can’t prove that it wasn’t, and you won’t accept the proof we offer. Evolution – beyond humans – could have been God’s planning all the long, but we did not come out of a swamp like matter and end up being apes and low and behold SOME apes became HUMAN!! Wow. NOT.

            You are welcome to take that theory and run with it all you and other
            believers want to. I don’t have to give an inch because if you want to believe that, you have every right, just like I do to have my belief. It’s quite likely that we won’t prove each other wrong because it would be impossible for you to be positive that the earth was “just so” and created all the things we have now like we all originated in a swamp. No we were made of dust. It makes a lot more sense than guck from a swamp to me and it always will. I am not interested in learning about it because I don’t believe that you can prove the earth was what
            the scientists Theorize it might have been. So it isn’t important to my life. I think I told you that I don’t dwell on those kind of things, or temporary inconveniences. They are like flies and it just needs to be ignored for it to go away. I have no need of the knowledge because I trust and believe in my God which you simply do not believe in. I have no problem with you not believing but I would have a problem if you
            feel that your belief – again I am sorry – trumps my own when yours can’t be proven to me, any more than you will accept my belief has been proven to me. So let’s drop that discussion altogether. I won’t address it again. I did not believe in Evolution ever in my whole life even before I became a Christian. I learned about it in school and dismissed it as, well, I felt it was stupid. So I have what I need to make a confident choice in what I believe.

            If you look at my posts, I never said I felt that as Christian we deserve any special privilege just for our religions, any more than whites should have special privileges above blacks – or any other race.

            All I did was encourage you to realize how small a flag is in the greater scheme of our lives. I don’t care if it is a flag about religion or any other flag they could fly, it is temporary at best and everyone has to put up with being offended by someone or something all the time. A flag is not important when in this case, it is one school, who was obviously all Christians until recently when an atheist saw the site promoting the event. It was when they came to the school that the flag came to light, wasn’t it? I’ll check and edit this if I recalled that incorrectly.

            All I pointed to was the pettiness of one person to complain about that flag that would likely have flown for the one day for a Christian school that didn’t have any non-Christians before that cared about it, if they had any at all. Some communities are all Christian you know. It’s ok if they are lean more to that side for those communities that want that in their schools, IMHO, because it harms no one in any way.

            I just want you to look at the Christians you think of, and realize that it is not what we all are like. Some of us, I think, a lot of us, are not pushy if there is someone who is truly offended by something. Sometimes lately it does seem to be more frequent that it is someone who doesn’t even have to live in the area who complains to the FFRF and it doesn’t have a
            thing to do with them other than to have glanced out the window at the
            right/wrong time. I object to that kind of behavior in anyone who is doing it to make someone unhappy (as far as I am concerned that can be the only reason for an unaffected stranger to report it.)

            As long as no one is offended a community should have the right to teach with Christianity in their school that is from a community of Christians. It’s not about special privileges, it’s about being reasonable in that case. It’s no different in the communities that are all East Indian or Muslims or Somalians. If everyone is of the same religion there is no need to remove it from the education system in that community.

            It isn’t easy to let go of a way of life when there is one person who is offended for something that they have had around for most of the lives or their parents’ that live there? A non-Christian would have the same difficulty if they removed for example, the music department right after you bought a flute for your kid. You try to fight to have the music department to stay and that is all the Christians want with the flag. They know it won’t work, but it is something they are going to have a hard time giving up especially if it is still a Christian only – because there are no one other than Christians that go there. No doubt you think that is right to deny a Christian community a school that is taught with our belief in mind even if it is only Christians that go there not because it’s private, but because no one else has been in the school that isn’t Christian. I don’t think there were complaints

            So give others a break please? Don’t expect one person to be the same as another without making sure that it is true. I’m not going to make a big deal out your view of me because you obviously do not know me. Someone else might complain about it, and the way you sounded like you are feeling aggressive towards me rather than my faith. I’d rather show you that you have to look further before trying to argue with
            someone. Be careful who else you talk to or you will end up banned as many have before you. But most of all don’t believe everything you hear about people, I call them Media Christians for a reason. You know about everyone’s 15 minutes of fame, don’t you?

          • Netizen_James

            Well, I typed a nice long and respectful reply regarding evolution, but the mods deleted it. I guess they don’t like dealing with *evidence* any more than any theist does. I won’t bother posting here any more if they’re just going to delete posts they don’t like.

          • Netizen_James

            > I can refer you to governments that actually were considering fining people for it.<

            No, you cannot refer me to any government in the United States which was considering 'fining people' for saying 'Merry Christmas'. (We are not talking about other countries which don't recognize the right of The People to be free from Government Religion. We're talking about The United States.
            Where the first amendment's establishment clause forbids government entities from promoting, endorsing, or in any way acting as if any set of religious beliefs is the 'official' set.)

            Where does this nonsense COME FROM?
            Is there some common font of BS where folks get this sort of 'fake news'?


          • Netizen_James

            Yes, we are made of stardust. All elements heavier than helium are the result of stellar explosions. No deities necessary.

          • Eldrida Urika

            I found it ironic when my husband found this on that famous You Tube site. It makes it awfully clear about how the world was made. By Scientists. I tried to post the address and was not able to.
            Please google “Science Has Found Proof of the Existence of God!”
            It is a video on YouTube. It is done by highest Science Leaders speaking themselves to say that they have come to a scientific conclusion that there is a God.
            It isn’t fake news, as you will see in the video. It is each individual scientist speaking about why they have come to this conclusion. There is one part that mentions that one scientist does not agree and continues to deny what the rest of them agree about.

            SCIENCE HAS FOUND PROOF OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD! It is a video that is just a google away.

            I won’t say anything else unless you respond.


          • Netizen_James

            No, that’s nonsense. No, there is no ‘scientific consensus’ that any deity exists. Most such nonsense takes the form of ‘circular reasoning’, usually of the form – ‘God created reality, reality exists, therefor God exists’. Note the presumption of the conclusion in the first assertion. This is also known as ‘begging the question’. All such ‘proofs’ of God – going way back to St. Anselm and St. Aquinas and all them – involve logical fallacies. Commonly an ‘appeal to authority’ fallacy, or the ‘argument from incredulity’ fallacy. No existing ‘proof’ of the existence of any deity is either logically or scientifically valid.

            Here’s a thought.

            Imagine that, like Abram, God wanted to test your faith. What evidence would you accept that would convince you to murder your own children because God wants you to? Would some youtube video be enough to convince you to murder your children? Would some ‘liver shiver’ be sufficient? How about a dream or a vision? Would ANY number of coincidental happenstances be sufficient? Of course it would not, and you know it.

            So what WOULD it take for you to KNOW that God wants you to murder your children? Magical writings appearing in blood on the wall? Letters of fire on the moon? What would it take? Whatever it would take, THAT is the level of evidence that I would need to believe that a God exists at all. And you don’t have that, and you know it, so don’t waste your time.

            Evidence must be EMPIRICAL to be valid. It must be OBJECTIVE. It must be PUBLIC. It must be REPEATABLE. Any lawyer with a brain will tell you that ‘testimony’ is the worst sort of evidence. Even eyewitness testimony is garbage compared to actual physical evidence.

            Got any empirical evidence for a deity, or even a soul? You know you don’t. If you had evidence, you wouldn’t need faith. If you had knowledge, you wouldn’t need belief. Nobody has to ‘believe’ in gravity.

          • Eldrida Urika

            The point of Abraham making a sacrifice of his son was to show his trust in God that when he asks us to do something to prove our faithfulness, we know that it will still come out as best for us. He didn’t let him kill him either, he provided a ram for a sacrifice so he did not have to sacrifice his son. It gave Abraham the ability to prove to God that he trusted him, since God provided the son long after it was expected, and that God would not do something to such a gift that he had given him, without a reason. This is the kind of thing that is in the bible to give us examples to follow, not to sacrifice our children, but to trust God and that the sacrifices we make will help us be closer to what we need to be to be loving and caring people. Sacrifices are actually when we give up the things we want that are things like bad habits; smoking, swearing, gossiping. Things we “want” to do that are not considered as no harm to others or yourself.

            I think I can explain it with drinking. If you want to go out on a night of drinking excessively, getting totally sloshed. The Lord told us to do everything without being excessive so when a Christian (likely a new convert) chooses to drink sensibly (societies name) and not get drunk, because of God’s Word, he/she is sacrificing their desires to do what they want to do, to follow Jesus’ directions to live a better life. Does that help explain the sacrifices that the Lord is trying to give us the way to a better life – happier, more filled with love, less stressful, less conflicts, less bad health choices.

            The things that Jesus showed us by example as well as verbally are not intended to be hardships but it’s a way to stop ourselves from being selfish with our actions.

            It’s why people like me have trouble with the groups that think they can insist we agree with their view. We don’t look at life like that. If we are shown that the issue is the right one, we’ll agree, but if there is no discussion to help us understand, then we go with what we have been given as a “known entity” so we are not giving in to something that is wrong by our own conscience. Without being able to understand we can’t be “forced” to change our opinion. Sometimes it is still impossible to help us change our opinions, as it should be. Everyone has the right to their own opinion, and if we are forced to go against our faith, it is only so that someone else has the right to take them away which is like saying that they are forcing us to go against our belief whether we like it or not. To agree to things that we can’t agree with when we understand God’s Word. People used to agree to disagree or just work out a way to be separate from each other so there is no clash. It’s like with the Christian belief that we should not be involved in another person’s sin. It is like not agreeing to drive a get a way car for people who steal. You are not stealing yourself, but you are abetting the “sinners” who are. So when gays choose to come to a Christian establishment, they should not think of our preference as a discrimination but as a belief that we should not DO something. It could be for anything that is helping with a sin. Absolutely anything. It made a big media thing because of it was the beginning of a new law, but if the gays had just accepted our belief and stayed away from the Christians who have that belief, there would have been no fussing. But because the gays would not believe that we can love and care about someone enough that we don’t want them to sin, and helping someone sin is not showing someone love or caring when you don’t understand that it is not about the people. It’s about our faith and it’s belief that we live our lives the way we do for the good of people, not to help the bad things according to our faith.
            If for instance, you were asked to watch out while a friendly pedophile did his thing in a room. It’s a friend so the first thought is to help him out by watching out. But when you realize that your friend is going to hurt a child, do you still watch out for him, or do you stop him from committing that offense? That is how we look at helping someone sin.

            It’s not necessarily wrong for Christians, but it is something that Christians who try to help others and show love and concern about the people involved are looking at it like.

            As I have said before, it just takes a positive outlook to be able to understand both sides without it being necessary to conflict because understanding for both sides helps people to get along better. Compassion and empathy for others makes it possible. When there is no understanding those things can’t be formed – you can’t be compassionate or empathize with others of a different view because you are only aware of your own view; finding out the other view is imperative to being able to work the problem out without it being only for the one side. And things that work for both sides are better than only one side as more people are happier.
            The video I referred you to is not likely to be a lie to the science community because the people speaking on the video are the top scientists in the field, not just random people. They are the ones that explain why they have decided that there has to be a divine entity for the earth to have been made the way it was. I hope you listened to it before you tossed it out, because it really is a valid announcement from the scientific community. I would not have referred you to it without it being considered valid, OK? I don’t do that. If I had not believed that it would open a new understanding in agreement with the scientific explanation, and not because I want to make you believe, but because it is what so many that rely on Science to say it is that our belief is not valid about. So please, I would appreciate it if you would please watch it with an open mind to what you believe – Science.

            I believe the only reason it has not been shouted to the world is because a top scientist still disagrees with what the others say, and they do not go out of their way to say something is decided when a peer does not agree. It would take all other things that scientist found as questionable because there are at least 3 top scientists that agree but the one can’t yet. I believe the scientists said they do not know why the other person is not accepting what their explanation is since there is more to back it up from their point of view, than there is against it as proof. Of course it is up to you but I would appreciate it. Check it out please. If you are truly one that wants to support your view with what the top scientific answers are to the creation of the world, you should know about this or what you tell us is like old news. If you want to spread the old theories that have been decided against, that’s up to you, I would just think you sound like you would want the most recent thing that scientists have decided on.

            Even if you don’t believe what they say, it’s still a scientific decision which is what you rely on to argue with our views.
            Blessings Netizen!

          • Netizen_James

            No, sorry. There is NO EXCUSE for discriminating against gay people. There is NO scriptural support for the condemnation of homosexuality. That condemnation is anti-Jesus. You have failed to provide even one argument against the interpretation of Scripture I’ve presented.

          • Eldrida Urika

            You did it again. I explained that to you in one of these posts and you still are not reading them. Are you getting two conversations mixed up or something?
            I never said that Jesus condemned anyone specifically, but all sinners. I never ever said that discrimination was in any way a good thing FOR ANYONE in any circumstances.
            Everyone should have equal rights. Equal rights are not something that depends on a person’s faithfulness to God’s Word or about anyone’s sin. Equal rights are shown in the bible to be what was right, when they took the money from everyone in town and divided it up among all the people of that town so everyone would be on equal footing. That is an example of Jesus’ desire to keep everyone equal by doing that. He felt everyone should be equal, no question.
            The condemnation for sin was a decision that God made, not man.
            We did not make it and we cannot change it. We are to obey his directions and we are not supposed to question his decisions in any way because it means that you doubt the Righteousness of God.
            He is the ultimate authority on everything.
            Being God kind of makes that all part of the package, you know?

          • Eldrida Urika

            Sorry I just reread your post and realized I did not answer one point.
            Evidence. My cousin has had repeated proof of God with not being rained at all in 3 years now. Even when it rains, it stops when she is outside and starts again when she is in a bus, then stops when she is getting off until she is inside again. Now, it has been witnessed by random people, but it is not something that she could prove to others unless they are with her when it is done.
            God usually shows that he exists to believers as a blessing in their lives that would not have happened without God’s hand being in it, and obvious to the individual. He does not give proof to people who cannot believe in him in the first place, because he wants us to Walk in Faith and not by sight. He wants us to not need the proof to know that he is real, and then he will give us proof if we honestly believe. It’s the “honestly believe” that will stop anyone who is just trying to get proof, because if you are not honest in your belief you are mocking God and he will not give you the proof you need.
            There is nothing but God that would stop and start the rain like that so a person would not get wet. Not with such consistency like it has been. I would question a person that said that they would not get wet walking in the rain, but this isn’t like that. It stops. That’s the only reason she does not get wet. She isn’t “dodging rain drops” she does not have to. For the people who know her and know that she is one of the most honest people they know, it is proof because of her reputation. She is very respected in both the Christian community and the general public because of her behavior at all times. She knows both Christian and non-Christian life because she was not a member of the Church until late in life, but it is her honesty that supports her when she gives testimony to non-believers. She has always been an honest and loving person so it doesn’t matter that she is Christian when she is around others, no matter who they are. Of course, I am not one to want to know others sins either. I don’t believe we have to know their sin to be able to encourage the desire to not sin at all. Ending the act of one sin, does not help the person to improve their lives. They must understand why before they will desire to do it. At least in my opinion. Blessings!

          • Netizen_James

            I’m sorry, but that’s complete and utter nonsense. In order to qualify as evidence, it must be objective, it must be public, and it must be repeatable under any and all conceivable contexts. If your cousin were flown to Southeast Asia during the monsoon season, I would happily bet my house against what I paid for it that the monsoon would NOT stop as soon as she stepped out of the plane. I think you know that to be true as well.

            And this sort of undocumented coincidental happenstance counts as ‘EVIDENCE’ to you? Really?

            Riddle me this – Why the MYSTERY? Why ISN’T there any empirical evidence that God exists? What would be so hard about mile-long flaming letters on the moon that say ‘God exists’ in whatever writing language the observer is most familiar with? Or indestructible plates with magical writing on them that changes based on who is looking? Surely this would not be beyond the capacity of an omnipotent deity. So why this hide-and-seek cagey BS? Where is Kidder’s Teletype? (see T. Sturgeon’s story ‘Microcosmic God’ for the reference there!)

            Don’t tell me that knowledge of God’s existence would eliminate ‘free will’. The alleged ‘sanctity’ of ‘free will’ didn’t keep God from (according to Exodus) intentionally ‘hardening Pharaoh’s heart’ so that God could show off by murdering of thousands of innocent Egyptian children.

            So why the mystery? Why the hiding? If He truly wants all to be Saved, why _not_ throw empiricists like me a bone? Is knowledge so worthless and blind faith so valuable as to condemn millions of souls like mine to eternal damnation? Really? And this is supposedly a LOVING God?

            A non-existent god would demonstrate exactly the same behavior…. Why won’t God ever restore an amputated limb? If there’s all this ‘healing’ going on – does God simply not like amputees? Is the restoration of the limb beyond God’s omnipotent capabilities? Or is it just that it would be ‘too obvious’ that it was a miracle? And for this, the amputee gets to suffer, to protect God’s…what? Mystery?

          • Netizen_James

            >everyone has to put up with being offended by someone or something all the time<

            None of this has anything to do with anyone being 'offended'. This has to do with the fact that as a government entity, the SCHOOL has no authority to allow it's assets to be used to promote religion. Period.

            This has to do with our RIGHT as US Citizens, to be free from Government Religion.

            EVERYONE should be offended when the government fails to live up to it's own rules. EVERYONE should be offended when cops, chiefs and DA's are found guilty of corruption and abuse of their public office. (look into what's going on in Suffolk County NY to be disgusted and offended!)

            And in exactly the same way EVERYONE should be offended that the school administrators here were either ignorant of the law, or were intentionally insubordinate.

          • Netizen_James

            >Can you explain why the Apes that are around now, are not evolving into humans?<

            No biologist has ever once contended that apes evolved into humans. Never once. If someone told you otherwise, they were either ignorant, or lying to you. Humans and apes share a common ancestor. Just like you and your cousins share a common grandparent. Why aren't you're cousins giving birth to you? Doesn't make much sense, does it? Same question.

            It is clearly evident to anyone who actually studies this stuff that EVERY living organism on earth shares a common ancestor. We all use RNA, we all use phospholipid bilayer membranes, all us mammals use similar enzymes for oxydative phosphorylation, and we all use adenosine triphosphate to carry energy for cellular metabolism. All life on earth is related. There is is not one bit of data which refutes evolution. Not one. EVERY single prediction based on evolutionary theory has been shown to be true. EVERY single one. You don't get that sort of predictive validity from a false theory.

            And yes, both humans and other primates are still evolving – though our understanding of medical science and germ theory (there's another 'theory' for you!) has somewhat blunted the effect of some adverse mutations, and people who would have otherwise died under 'Laws of Nature and of Nature's God', are still alive because of medical science. (e.g. everyone with type1 diabetes!) (recognize the quote?)

            If there's no such thing as evolution, how did humans create dalmations, pugs, pitbulls, and yorkies from wolves? Selective breeding is no different – it's just people doing the selection, instead of 'nature' doing the selecting.

          • Eldrida Urika

            Literally speaking, when you complain about something that has no direct affect on yourself, yeah, it’s based on the offense in this case the offense of having a religion.
            If you were not offended by the christian faith, you would not start off by aggressively speaking to another poster, who you recognize as Christian. I have never said I agree with the Christian being used by the government if it makes it sound like they favor one over another. You are welcome to look over our posts to see that what I say is the truth.
            So, I have addressed these things in other replies so I won’t go on again.
            Blessings and Have a Good day.

          • Netizen_James

            So when you hear about the girl who was raped by cops in NYC, you’re not offended that the government infringed on the rights of that poor girl? Really?

          • Eldrida Urika

            Tell me what rights were infringed upon in this story? NONE of the articles I just read mentioned anything like that.
            When cops go against the law they are not considered cops anymore. They are considered, in this case to be rapists , and it is only because they resigned that they were not fired. The government did nothing to this girl at all except take her attackers out of the very government you are accusing of doing something wrong. Unless you have a link to an article that is valid and tells me that something was done to infringe on her rights as a citizen of NYC. I look forward to seeing the link, I like to be as up to date on things like that as I am able.
            One thing you need to admit is that the government does not hire cops to rape women and if they had known this would happen, they would have stopped it before it happened I expect, although again that depends on a someone’s personal decision about it, as it is his superior that would make that decision. From the articles I read, they were immediately demoted and put on restricted duties or something. So they punished them immediately without hesitation. How is that being complicit on the government’s part in what happened to that poor girl?
            If you are going to make accusations then you will have to start providing the site to go to to see those issues are from the media, and not someone unknowingly telling you an untruth. I don’t say it is a lie, you see, I see it as a misconception because I don’t accuse people of things I don’t actually know.
            If you want me to cite scriptures rather than try to explain anything without them, I have no problem doing that. BUT you need to read my posts and try to understand what I am saying not just skim over it until you spot something to reply to, and then move on to the next thing that stands out. I won’t deal with that kind of thing. If you can’t read it and understand what I am saying then you are not trying. I make things very clear when I write my posts. I work hard at doing exactly that, and I am very good at it according to what others have said. It is because you want to argue about my faith and honestly do not care what others say, that you will not try to understand what I have written. I am sorry that you think so badly of ALL Christians, and I tried to get you to find out for yourself just how many people you know and think of as ‘nice’ are Christians that are totally against everything you discussed but won’t listen to a Christian about. But that is something YOU have to do, and I can do no more than encourage you to open up your eyes and ears and start asking people in your life how they feel about things like this, without anger if they do not “measure” up, but you will find that many Christians are sorry to see the changes, but have no thought of resistance at all. do a survey on one of those make your own survey sites and find out from the public. I don’t want to say you might be surprised, because I think that would mean you would not consider it. You do not want to be proven wrong, that was evident when you refused to say you even saw that video. If you believe the scientists are the ones to listen to, then you are deliberately ignoring the video as I told you it is interviews with the top scientists so it can’t be fake. I’m sure it would have been discovered if it were. The scientists themselves would have sued who ever posted the video if it was a fake, right? It would be their own reputation at stake. So if it is your belief that science has the answers and the bible is in any way in error, then you should be finding out for yourself what those scientists are saying, shouldn’t you. Wouldn’t you want to know how they made this discovery that GOD EXISTS? I’m disappointed that you think I’d mislead you as you could have learned that I am not like that and if I or my husband had thought the video was a lie, then I would not be telling everyone to go to the video that tells us that TOP SCIENTISTS SAY GOD EXISTS. Like I said, it must be true or they would be suing the poster by now.

          • Netizen_James

            >So how about if all religions are included or excluded because right now it is still excluding Christianity because of people like you who want no Christianity in schools.<

            This is simply false. Christianity is exactly as 'taught in schools' as every other religion. It is not the case, in Texas or anywhere else, that public school teachers are leading children in Jewish prayers, or Hindu prayers or Buddhist prayers, and that only Christian prayers are excluded. That is pure and utter HOGWASH. Whoever told you that is either ignorant, or lying to you.

            Think on this: To those accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

            Public schools in the US have, in violation of the Constitution, spent decades preaching Protestant Christianity as the Officially Correct religion. Look at the Philadelphia Bible Riots if you don't believe me. Use the internet and look this stuff up for yourself. But now that We The People are actually fighting back, and expecting the government to follow it's own rules, public schools can't do that any more. So now the people who used to benefit from that illegal promotion, are feeling like they've 'lost' something. They have. They've lost the cultural hegemony that used to make it ok to presume that everyone is a Protestant, and screw anyone who isn't. They lost a privilege they shouldn't have had in the first place.

            Government is not society. Government is a limited TOOL of society. Government violates it's reason for existing when it presumes to CONTROL society, rather than the other way around. And this is why we have a RIGHT to be free from Government Religion.

          • Eldrida Urika

            This is simply false. Christianity is exactly as ‘taught in schools’ as
            every other religion. It is not the case, in Texas or anywhere else,
            that public school teachers are leading children in Jewish prayers, or
            Hindu prayers or Buddhist prayers, and that only Christian prayers are
            excluded. That is pure and utter HOGWASH. Whoever told you that is
            either ignorant, or lying to you.

            I was not talking about just prayer though. Christianity is not taught as a part of a religious study until higher learning. In the lower grades there is no Christianity being peddled as the ‘only religion’. It might be present in behavior, but people are not teaching the children outright Christian beliefs. Everything I have read says that all the States are going after every cultural thing they believe is Christian. It can’t be all lies because the things I wonder about are the ones I google to verify. Sometimes it takes looking at the local papers to find out that it is happening in other places, and the media doesn’t cover it unless the issue is protested. Every school that did remove it wasn’t necessarily a Christian run school and it was the community that was sad.
            Maybe it should not have been there, but it was. So at one point it was considered OK to do that. And the number of people who objected were in the minority and didn’t always make an issue out of it. We can’t know.
            So think about these things as traditions for the people who are unhappy about it being removed. Like holding our hands over our hearts for the anthem, what do you think people would do if that was not acceptable for some inane reason? Would you like having that “privilege” taken away?
            It is like Halloween – those of us who grew up with it never considered the background to it, it was just a really fun time for the kids and even when we grew up we wanted our kids to have a good time then too.
            Now it’s being ruined with all the P.C. that was never intended to offend anyone it was all in play not reality. People have gotten too sensitive about things and are ruining the children’s fun because of it.
            If you remembered Halloween as a great fun night, do you like it being taken over by the P.C. in the world? Don’t you understand, it’s less about the religion and more about what people are used to, which always give people comfort.
            When things that have happened for – most for a century wouldn’t it be? – people are sad when it is removed, whether it is about religion or about removing something like Music from the school. It is human nature to not want to let go of the familiar and why should Christians be any different? Give it time and the next generation will never know what Christianity is about except as a part of history maybe.
            In the meantime, I don’t understand why you don’t realize that Christianity is being removed now. If you do understand that, then why are you so fired up about wiping it out when the removal is already started? It’s starting to sound more about the just religion period not just the Christian faith you are against, and not just in schools.
            It’s not easy for a Christian to know a non-believer who hates our faith for reasons that we would not want in our faith either. It is easier when we can discuss our own faith without that hanging over our heads, because it puts up a wall that is not necessary.
            Christians are not supposed to push our religion on people, we are supposed to spread the gospel and that has to be done individually unless it is in a religious setting. It is not something that can take a few words to explain so it is better to be done one on one when we have a person who is willing to listen. Jesus never once told us to push our religious beliefs on others who do not believe. So right there, you can see why most of us do not want others to believe what you believe about the Christian faith.
            So, I can’t help you with your mindset. I am not the typical Christian as I can put what the bible tells me into my own life even before I believed. I can view it as both a non-Christian and as a Christian, it widens my understanding of both sides.
            If you don’t want to believe, or won’t take the time to listen to someone about Salvation then fine. It is your choice, but stop thinking every Christian is trying to push our faith on people. They aren’t. Sometimes all they want is to save others, because of our faith, but it isn’t a bad thing they are trying to do, it’s because of what has happened in our lives that makes us want to shout to the rooftops that God is Real.
            I guess you could liken it to people who shout in the joy of love itself or that it is being returned.

            I’d love to discuss the Christian faith with you, but I am not convinced you would listen without the bias of your current belief. It would not help you understand if you are going to argue with each thing I explain as different than you believe it to mean.

            Christianity is as much about how to get along well in life as it is about believing there is a God that helps us in our lives. Getting along is a good thing, not a bad thing, and when it is an individual’s belief that guides them then I don’t see how it can affect someone else badly. Not in my religion.

            God gave us free choice and we can only encourage others to believe in the gospel. So it is not God who gives us no choice, it is the people involved who is trying to take your choice away, not Christians.
            I take a lot of time when I am trying to explain things, but I apologize for the length never the less. I don’t feel like I get a second chance to explain it so I put it all into one.

            Blessings, and have a great day!

          • Eldrida Urika

            Well, that may be true in some situations, but someone from the Black Community would disagree since they have fought for equal rights even past the time it was a law. They still fight it because of the racists in the world. Ditto with the gays and Transgender people.
            Treat each other’s who have different religions the way you want them to treat yours. It’s about the people involved regardless of whether it had to be taken to the government to intercede or not.
            You look it as they lost ‘something religious’ but they have lost more than that, they have lost a tradition. I don’t want to get started on this again. It’s over. There is not going to be Christianity in schools eventually, as long as people complain about it, Christianity will be gone from the public eye too. It takes time to do these things and your aggression is not necessary. No matter how the people feel, they will have to remove it.
            You must be of the younger generation; they seem to need everything handed to them FAST and that just isn’t a reality when you are changing anything that has been a tradition for as long as that has been. Whether it was right or wrong does not take away the fact that it is in the process of being removed. No one can make that happen faster. It takes time. Especially when you are dealing with Laws. Whether it is a law suit about this or about someone being hit by a car it takes time in the Court of Law to even get to the case.
            Christians are no different to other groups when it comes to resisting the removal of something they held dearly. Why do you expect Christians to behave differently than any other group? They are people not just Christians you know. They have personal feelings too. You get riled up with anger at our Faith, but we get filled with the Joy of knowing our Lord. Why should your anger trump our Joy?
            You are making me feel like you are not trying to understand what I am saying because of the way you just keep posting the same thing in different ways.
            Again, you haven’t seen anything I’ve said that says I think that the Christian faith should be in the government at all. Because I don’t.

          • Netizen_James

            >No doubt you think that is right to deny a Christian community a school <

            If the Christians in the community want to form a Christian school, nobody is stopping them. That's freedom for you. Freedom is messy and dangerous and expensive. Accept no substitutes!

            I think it's wrong for the GOVERNMENT to promote one religion as the 'officially correct' one. Which is what was happening here, and which is what the lawsuit will be about, if the administrators don't back down.

          • Eldrida Urika

            I don’t agree that it is the government that is the one that is promoting one religion but that this particular school wants to, and that is what I am talking about. If this community is all Christian there should be no problem with this until there is a non-Christian in the area, but until then it is not affecting anyone’s beliefs because of the community.
            Otherwise no I don’t agree with the government promoting one religion but I don’t see that happening. They are taking Christianity out of the school system, why would they start promoting any others once that is completed?
            You are not being reasonable about this ONE school situation. I am not talking about the whole of the USA education systems. Just this one small school.
            Please take a look at yourself and change your mindset to a positive one? Look for the good about things and not just the bad.
            It’s like this, “wow, this community is all Christian and want their school to reflect that. Gee I sure am glad I never had/have to go to a school like that.”
            You are taking this one school situation – which I think we all know what will happen when they reach a time limit – and blowing it up to the whole nation. It isn’t.
            The whole government is taking Christianity out of the schools, that can’t happen overnight. Take up another cause because this one has been won, Ok?
            I am Christian but I haven’t said one thing that comes from the bible, except the post with the golden rules, and even then it wasn’t just about the bible, it is the fact that other religions encourage the same behavior. It is the behavior that helps people get along and not have issues all the time. And it works, as I have had plenty of experience over my life that proves it. I don’t need the bible to make my points, because I haven’t been a Christian all my life. I know what you are talking from and I really didn’t have a lot of experience with Christianity knowingly. After I became a believer, I recognized many things that were in line with the bible teachings, but it wasn’t the bible that taught them to me. It was the people who were charged with my life lessons that taught me that. People who were forming me. Christianity really isn’t a problem with society if they actually looked at it, because the most – and I stress most – Christians behave properly and their behavior stands out from others because of that. Is that wrong to be good people to every one that we can because we hope that someone will do it for us if the situation were reversed. That’s what Christianity is Netizen. It isn’t supposed to be people who are critical of others. It is supposed to be that our behavior is such that others will see it and want to know what makes us so calm, so happy even in hard times. Many people are brave through adversity because of their faith in the Lord. Is that wrong?
            You see, the Christianity you seem to have been exposed to, is not the only faith of Christianity, and it is not what all Christians think or behave like with non-believers.
            You have been led to believe that all Christians stand out as haters and criticizers and angry people, who follow someone that makes them that way.
            I can understand that feeling, but it isn’t an accurate one by any means.
            Ask people around you that you consider ‘nice’ or ‘good’ and see if any are Christian and you never even realized it. We don’t want to stand out the way the other religions do, we want to show that we can handle more because of our belief that we have a good God that cares about us.
            You do not have to believe that to appreciate the people who do. We don’t go around with a sign saying we are Christians. Consider this, if the majority of people who have a faith are Christian, how many of those are the ones that blend in more than want to create a scene about our faith. We aren’t supposed to express our faith in big crowds of non-believers with a blow horn. So think about how many people you meet every day that might be Christian and you just never thought about it.
            I think most Christians think that it is sad that our faith is being removed from the schools because of our belief and our own school experiences, but that doesn’t mean the majority of us need it to stay in the education system. Many of us believe that our faith is enough to get through living in a world that doesn’t believe. We don’t need to shout it, we live the way that our Lord Jesus wanted us to behave to have a more peaceful world. It’s not the things that some Christians make an issue out of that makes all Christians the same.
            Now that I think about it, isn’t that like discrimination to think that all people in one group are exactly the same in every way?

            There are good and bad in every ‘group’ and people that do not follow the things that others do. You have to take this into account when you are judging anyone’s behavior. When you think about it, what portion of Christians do act hateful or critical of non- believers? With the majority in such high numbers still, the media Christians are a minority.

            From what I can tell from your posts, you have never been talked to about the bible to see the goodness that it encourages us to have. You don’t see that Jesus wants peace above all things and for everyone to love each other. If you don’t see the bible like that, then you have never had a believer speak to you. Or if you have, it is only their faith that has big issues about sin of non-believers.


        • Hardlee_Ded

          Actually… it is you sir who is wrong.

    • Netizen_James

      No, it does not.
      The happenstance of demographic majority does not trump anyone’s RIGHT as a US Citizen to be free from government religion.

      “The ‘establishment of religion’ clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion.” (Supreme Court – 330 US 1)

      Majorities cannot just do anything they want – that’s why we have a Constitution in the first place, so that the majority couldn’t just seize the assets of the wealthy few.

      • If you really think this is the establishment of a government religion, you are suffering from some sort of psychosis.

        • Netizen_James

          Show me the statute which gives the school the authority to promote Christianity as the ‘officially correct’ religion. You know you cannot, because there is no such statute.

          Yes, any act of promotion or endorsement is an act which ‘respects the establishment of’ religion. Any such law which would attempt to give the school the authority to promote Christianity as the officially correct religion would be in violation of the establishment clause. As no such law can exist constitutionally, any such promotion or endorsement is therefor unauthorized, and therefor illegal.

          The next part of that quote from the /Everson/ decision is this:
          “No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever from they may adopt to teach or practice religion. ”

          Tell me – who pays the guy who mows the grass near this display and who would be responsible for fixing the flagpole if it were to be damaged in a storm or an earthquake or some idiot driving their truck into it? You know – taxpayers. Thus, this flag represents an expenditure of taxpayer money for the purpose of supporting religious activities, and is thus clearly a violation of the establishment clause.

          • The school nor anyone else is promoting Christianity as the officially correct religion.

          • Netizen_James

            Excellent example of ducking and dodging and simply ignoring arguments you can’t contend with. Are you a politician, or just studying the craft?

            So where’s the Jewish flag, the Muslim flag, the Hindu flag or the Bahá’í flag? Heck, where’s the Vatican flag or the Mormon flag or the Episcopalian flag? Why is there only the *one* religious flag? Who decided that THOSE flags will not get flown while THIS flag will be? How can that be interpreted as anything OTHER than an endorsement on the part of the school? And since the school is a government entity, there you have government endorsing THIS flag, but no others, and thus promoting THIS set of Christian Sects (explicitly excluding Episcopalians, Mormons, and Catholics) as ‘more equal’ than the others. This is indisputable, and your attempt to pretend it’s not happening would be humorous were it not so serious.

            Look into the ‘Philadelphia Bible Riots’ for more on why the separation of church and state is so important.

          • You obviously have a reading comprehension issue.

          • Netizen_James

            You clearly have a reality-perception problem.
            The school flying the so-called ‘Christian Flag’ is clearly acting to endorse Christianity as the ‘default’ or ‘officially correct’ set of religious beliefs. Are you familiar with the /Lemon/ test? What is the ‘secular purpose’ of flying that particular flag?

          • A public school showing support for Christianity is not the same as a governmental proclamation that you must be a Christian or else face the governmental consequences.

          • Netizen_James

            Yes, it is. It’s still a violation of the establishment clause. Any act of government promotion or endorsement of any religion, or even religious concept, even ‘temporarily’, is a violation of the Constitution. If the school was promoting the idea of ‘reincarnation’ as the ‘normal’ postmortem destination belief, would that be cool with you? You know it would not be.

            “The ‘establishment of religion’ clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. ” (US Supreme Court – 330 US 1)

            If I refuse to pay my property tax because the school is promoting a religion I don’t agree with – what will happen? You know. The men with guns will create some ‘governmental consequences’ for me, now won’t they?

          • Thank you Perry Mason.

          • Netizen_James

            And again, a dearth of argument or evidence or even reason. Just irrelevant name calling, and pathetic attempts at humor.

          • Eldrida Urika

            It was only flown by the student for the “see you at the pole day” until someone complained. Are you saying they should put up their own pole just to fly this to represent a national day of prayer? And you know everyone has to walk to some place other than the school that everyone else is going to for this event?
            Give it a rest. It was not trying to do anything except tell everyone that the event was coming up.
            People just love to complain about simple little things that are not even big enough to make a person THINK about the Christian religion. The flag is not an establishment it is about a national day of prayer. It wouldn’t even make anyone blink if some one didn’t insist they were offended.
            but we must remember that no one should be offended right? oh except the ones that are being harassed about the thing that someone is offended by. Walk on by. Look for money on the ground! Ignore it and it would have gone away a lot faster than it will now. This whole issue would have been gone shortly after A person complained. Couldn’t it have just been explained that it will be gone and it is only about the national day of prayer?
            What is wrong with people today? Not just complaining about what they don’t like but taking people to court for it. SMH Try to get along children. It’s really not that hard. Sheesh!

          • Netizen_James

            No, that’s simply false. It was not flown ‘by a student’.
            The flagpole is the property of the school. The flag on top of that flagpole appears to a ‘reasonable observer’ to belong to the school, and that the school has endorsed this use of their property. That impression alone is a violation of the constitutional prohibition on religious establishment.

            The ‘national day of prayer’ is itself unconstitutional, as are the payments of the salaries of the House Chaplain and Senate Chaplain. Founding Father James Madison – the guy who WROTE the first amendment had this to say about the congressional chaplains:
            “Is the appointment of Chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principle of religious freedom?
            In strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the U. S. forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion. …
            The establishment of the chaplainship to Congs is a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles: The tenets of the chaplains elected [by the majority] shut the door of worship agst the members whose creeds & consciences forbid a participation in that of the majority. To say nothing of other sects, this is the case with that of Roman Catholics & Quakers who have always had members in one or both of the Legislative branches. Could a Catholic clergyman ever hope to be appointed a Chaplain? To say that his religious principles are obnoxious or that his sect is small, is to lift the evil at once and exhibit in its naked deformity the doctrine that religious truth is to be tested by numbers. or that the major sects have a right to govern the minor. ”

            To get a more modern feel for what Madison was saying, replace ‘Roman Catholic’ with ‘Muslim’, and ‘Quaker’ with ‘Scientologist’.

            None of this is about anyone being ‘offended’. This is about government following the law, and refraining from violating the religious liberty of US Citizens by promoting or endorsing SOME religions as ‘more equal’ than others.

          • Eldrida Urika

            You sound like you enjoy complaining to be honest. you just look at everything in a negative way and you want to make as big and loud a complaint and to tell all Christians that you hate us .That’s great except it must make you have a miserable life.
            If you would look around you, you can see the way things are changing but obviously you think it must be instantaneous when that is impossible.

            I think you are not acknowledging all the things that have taken religion out of the government and all around because “you” have obviously made your point. I’m sorry these things take time but you know it’s been this way for hundreds of years and you can’t just wave a magic wand and take it all away at once.

            I never said anything like what you said to me. I said that it was for one day but because it was complained about now it’s going to be longer than the one day. I can’t imagine being offended about something that is about everyone’s hope that our nation can stay free and that our men are not dying for nothing. whether you want to pray is up to you but complaining about so many people choosing for themselves to pray is petty just because of the sheer number of people and religions that pray that day.

            Don’t jump on people because you expect them to be like “this” Christian or “that” Christian. I am not like most Christians in the first place, but not all Christians are the kind of people who want only Christians in our country, and if there are people new to the country, then they have to be included too. I don’t really care largely about the government as I do for people. I love God and it is his will that makes me love people and care about and for them. People who don’t believe are not a big deal either because I believe that each person who turns to Jesus is the one to choose that, and it is not something anyone can force on another person, no matter how hard you try.
            So no I would not want to do something that offends someone, but if it is not a reasonable reason for offense, then I won’t support it. Otherwise, the type of person that I am, I’d be the mediator of the two sides so it can be resolved instead of fought about.
            But really, you have to open your eyes. Look around. things are changing and that’s unlikely to have the direction change any time soon. Some day you know you will have all Christianity hidden away so it won’t offend you anymore and you’ll have to look around and find something else to offend you. Because people who can be offended by a belief that someone else has, will always be offended about something.
            I’ll be praying for you, Blessings!

          • Netizen_James

            Typically, you entirely miss the point. It’s not about anyone being ‘offended’. It’s about the fact that it is unconstitutional for the school to promote religion. Period. Even ‘only for a day’. Even if ‘only for a minute’.

            Do you or do you not accept the fact that as US Citizens we have a RIGHT to be free from government religion?

          • Eldrida Urika

            I’m sorry, but if I miss the point it is because you are not making your point as clearly as you think you are. I am an intelligent woman who has a lot of experience and reading is one I have definitely done.
            I have pointed out that the see you at the pole day is global.
            I have pointed out that it is done first thing in the morning everywhere before school is in session.
            I have pointed out that this is totally voluntary.
            So your problem is either the site that had promotion on it which they took down when they were told they had to.
            Or your problem is with the Christian faith.
            As I have pointed out more about the Christians in the world and how we all suffer inconveniences all the time in another reply, I’ll leave you with that to think about rather than go further into it again here.
            Have an Awesome Day!

          • Netizen_James

            Do you or do you not accept the fact that we have a constitutional RIGHT to be free from government religion?

            It doesn’t matter that ‘see you at the pole’ is ‘global’ (which is false – there are no ‘see you at the pole’ events in Qatar or Iran, and you know it!)

            It doesn’t matter that it’s ‘voluntary’.
            My ‘problem’ is not with the Christian faith. Some of my best friends are Christians.
            My ‘problem’ is with the GOVERNMENT (e.g. the school) supporting and encouraging SOME faith-beliefs as ‘more true’ than others by flying THIS religious flag, but NO OTHER religious flag.

            As if you would sit still for the school flying a Muslim flag, or a Wiccan or Hindu flag. There’s be pitchforks and torches at the next school board meeting if they did that, and you know it.

          • Netizen_James

            So it’s ok to kidnap you and throw you in a cage, so long as it’s ONLY for one day? No problem to violate your rights, so long as it’s ONLY for a short time, right? And being ‘offended’ about that ‘merely temporary’ infringement of your right to liberty would be simply whinging, and you should just ‘get over it’, right? Wrong.

          • Eldrida Urika

            Not a good argument, sorry.
            A flag flying for one day for a specific reason is not anything like a cage.
            With a flag you can look away.
            With a flag you can be grateful that it was flying – intended to be ONE day.
            With a flag you will know that your friends that are joining their friends at the pole to pray for our nation and be happy for them.
            See the difference there?
            Being in a cage takes all those rights away.
            Wouldn’t you rather look the other way for one day, and enjoy all the benefits you can of that day? There would be far more benefits to a day where you can be tolerant for one day. Everything except the flag flying can be just as normal as you wish. And you can look out a different window if you don’t like to see people at the pole praying together.
            I can understand being offended if it were not a day across the nation that was the original reason for the flag, but when a whole nation is praying together, do you really think that complaining about that is the right thing to do just because you want to look at it in a negative light. Do you realize that every “See you at the pole day” has people all over the states co-operating together for one day every year to pray for this nation where our men died for us to have. Do you consider that there is nothing else in comparison as a peaceful event that brings all the people together and not have fights about whose religion is the right one because it isn’t the point of the prayer. The point of the prayer is to pray for our nation and it’s welfare. The Nation that we are proud of and do not want to have troubles in our lives. It’s not just the Christians that pray, it’s every single person that loves the nation and wants to be able to stay free the way we are. If you can’t find the words to care about the nation then hold your tongue on that day because everyone else wants to and too bad in this one case, the majority rules. And remember, it’s not just Christians so you should really consider that maybe at that school there are more Christians than Muslims or any other faith and they are not interested in flying a flag for that day themselves.

            Complaining makes for a bad day for the complainer, not for the thing (or the people) that is being complained about.

            We can still go on and pray for you and go about our happy days sad with the knowledge that you can’t even cope with one day where something you don’t agree with is a problem for you. SMH

            By the way, the suggestion of being put into a cage as a violation of my rights is how you see it. I don’t. I don’t feel offended like you do. You see when I see other religions flags or buildings and events around the cities and town I am not offended at all. They have theirs and we have ours, and to be honest, there are far more secular events than religious unless it is at a time of celebration for one of the religions. People who don’t believe have far more going FOR them, than Christians have going AGAINST you . For that matter, we don’t have anything against people who don’t have faith in our Jesus. We just pray for them.

            I prefer to look at things in a more positive light, and there are always good things that can overcome a negative attitude. Looking to find something to irritate you is sad. Try looking away from what bothers you and look towards something that makes you happy. It makes for a better life even if you aren’t a Christian.
            I’ll keep you in my prayers. Blessings

          • Netizen_James

            Rights are rights. Our right to be free from government religion is neither more than nor less than our right to liberty. This isn’t about ‘offense’. This is about it being ILLEGAL for public schools to promote religion. ANYONE’s religion.

          • Eldrida Urika

            I said in my first post about this, I think, that the fact that the school had something on their site about SYATP Day was what the problem was.
            Except that one day it seems. It is not illegal for schools to have that one day of prayer. For one thing it is well before when most schools begin. It is a Global event where Christians all over the world go to their flag pole to pray for the world. Can you imagine that? They are all to meet at their local school flag pole at the same time in their time zone globally, and that time is at 7:00am. That is the one day people have set aside all over the world to do this together. Every year on the 4th Wednesday of September.
            So this is not about legalities unless the school promotes it in any way, and in that event all they have to do is take that down and don’t put one up again.
            Most schools do not promote it at all, from what the sites I viewed said. But it is spread by word of mouth and in religious events and on the internet.
            If it is before school time, it is not imposing on anyone else.
            As long as the school doesn’t promote the event it is not illegal from what I could find, and it is dependent on the school. Now of course it depends on whether someone complains too. SMH
            Being able to look away makes things minor in a lot of offensive ways we can find.
            We are capable of not being offended when it does not interfere with our lives.
            Those of us with positive attitudes do not let people or things that are negative bother them in the first place. So it’s really about whether it is a problem, or whether it is an inconvenience that needs to be dealt with, or whether your life won’t even hit a bump on the highway of life is you just look away from it. People do it all the time. Why should religion be singled out when it is anything that is offensive that they want taken out so they won’t be offended because they look that way and can’t bring themselves to look another way knowing it is in the same place every day. It’s a mature attitude and it is what adults are supposed to do. Allow for differences and be tolerant of others. Treat others the way you want to be treated because it teaches anyone who sees you and how you behave. The way a person (should) deals with someone who is opposed to something you aren’t isn’t by complaining if it is a choice to look at it.
            And if it’s in public, there is a choice to look at it.
            These little things are not important.

  • Croquet_Player

    It’s astonishing how many school administrators are ignorant of the law. (Or worse, they know the law, and are flouting it intentionally). It is illegal for them to fly any religious flag on public school property, and it doesn’t make the slightest bit of difference how many “residents” support it. They have two options: take it down, or face a costly lawsuit that they will certainly lose.

  • Reason2012

    Ask these “atheists” every time there’s a complaint why they have no problem with islam being taught in more and more public schools. It shows they’re not really atheists but instead islam activists posing as atheists to eradicate Christianity.

    • MCrow

      Again, comparative religion is a general course. Teachers aren’t demanding students bow down to any religion. It’s a study course detailing beliefs for the purpose of understanding religious impacts on society

      • wandakate

        Then if we need to teach a study course detailing beliefs in Islam or whatever then we need to also have a mandatory study of the HOLY BIBLE as well, b/c what is FAIR is FAIR…If ISLAM is taught then so should CHRISTIANITY be taught too. ANYBODY who doesn’t agree can stand up.

        • MCrow

          Christianity is taught alongside Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, and a few other world or local religions. As you said: fair is fair. No religion is given more or less focus.

    • Netizen_James

      mostly because that’s BS fake news. No student is being told by any public school that Islam is the ‘officially correct’ religious belief. No student is being led in Muslim prayers by any teacher. No recitation of verses from the Koran is a regular part of any student’s daily activities. Do look up the history of the ‘Philadelphia Bible Riots’ for more about why the separation of church and state is so important.

    • james blue

      Well the atheists in the article, the FFRF, do go after Islam being taught in school.

    • Lark.62

      Islam is not being taught as fact in public schools. High school civics classes discuss the fact that various religions exist, the geographic regions where they are prominent, what adherents tend to believe and what holidays they celebrate. No public school in the US teaches “islam is the correct religion.”

      OTOH, there are still schools in the US that hold assemblies with christian altar calls during the school day, let teachers lead students in christian prayer, and put a protestant flag on the flag pole.

      There are very few muslim elected officials. There are very few muslim school employees. But if they use government authority to promote their religion, the FFRF will be there to oppose it.

      • wandakate

        I think the FFRF will be there to be sure Christians are harassed. To persecute them and make them suffer or change what they have said or done. I don’t think they’re concerned with the promotion of Islam or any other religion. It’s GOD they are against, not Allah or any of the others. Islam’s goal is to concur, they intend to take over the world and fly their flag at our White House, one country and then one state at a time.

        • Netizen_James

          No, Wanda. That’s simply false. FFRF doesn’t care what anyone believes, so long as there are no government entities supporting, promoting or encouraging faith-beliefs using taxpayer funds. The Founders left us with a SECULAR government, and some of us aim to make sure it gets that way, and stays that way.

    • wandakate

      Can anyone here figure out WHY Islam is taught in schools in many states, yet teachers can be fired for mentioning the name of JESUS CHRIST in the Public School system????? What kind of deal is that? Who in the doodads is making these rules?

      • Reason2012

        Islam activists have infiltrated our governments and schools – it’s that simple. The proof is in exactly what you have stated.

        • wandakate

          Apparently you are correct. They want today’s children that are enrolled in Public schools to know ALL about Islam and “nothing” more about JESUS CHRIST.
          So if parents don’t teach about Him at home, how will they know? They may home-school them, they may enroll them into a Christian school, they may have the taught by Private individual teachers (tutors) etc. Public school is NOT their ONLY alternative and will continue to indoctrinate their children, program them to the new NWO agenda as well as brainwash them with common core, and teaching about LGBTHQ’s. Parents that can afford a Private education and continue to keep their children in the Public schools are
          going to be totally responsible for their children’s spiritual health.

          • Reason2012

            Amen! Thank you for posting!

          • Netizen_James

            What nonsense. Christianity is taught along side all of the other religions. Given no more or less importance than any of the others. Anyone who graduates from High School will be able to tell you that Christians believe that Jesus was divine. What more do you want?

      • Netizen_James

        Wanda – that is simply nonsense. No, no teacher has ever once been fired for mentioning the name ‘Jesus Christ’. Got facts? Give me a name. Even one. Good luck with that.

        Are we not called to refrain from bearing false witness? Isn’t that what you’ve just done there Wanda – testified to something that you did not actually witness?

        Yes, public schools teach ABOUT religion. That’s perfectly ok. It’s perfectly ok for teachers to teach kids that Christians believe this and such, while Muslims believe that and so, and these Hindus over there believe these other things. It is perfectly ok to describe the history of the wars between the Catholics and the protestants in Europe. It is perfectly ok to describe the imperialistic wars of both the Ottoman empire, and the Crusades. There is not one thing wrong with any of that, and nobody from the FFRF, or AU, or the ACLU will tell you otherwise.

        What you seem to be missing is the ‘good old days’ when public school teachers would lead ALL children in the recitation of Protestant Christian prayers, regardless of the desires of their Catholic or Jewish or Mormon or Quaker or Muslim or Hindu or Atheist parents. Well bummer for you – those days are gone – and good riddance. Unless you want your child’s public school teacher to indoctrinate your children into the nonsense that is Scientology, without your permission; unless you want your child’s public school teacher telling your children that eating meat is evil; unless you want your child’s public school teacher leading them in prayers to the Blessed Virgin Mary….

  • Netizen_James

    Do they really not get it? Nobody cares what they fly on their own personal truck. NOBODY. They could be flying the Christian flag, an Israeli flag, a Mexican flag, a Russian flag, or even an ISIS flag – none of which is a matter of law. We have freedom of speech here. Though I’ll bet some folks would have a problem with folks using their free speech to fly an ISIS flag.

    But when the SCHOOL, a government entity, is promoting ONE religion as if it’s the ‘officially correct’ one, THAT is where there is a problem. No, government entities are not authorized to promote religion. Period. Not anyone’s religion, not even the religion of the local demographic majority. Government entities are not authorized to promote religion at all. Which means that any and all such promotion is unauthorized, and therefor illegal. Government entities are not authorized to allow government resources to be used by others to promote religion either.

    The only appropriate stance of government toward various theological perspectives is one of complete neutrality. Anything less is the imposition of ‘government religion’, and is a frank violation of our religious liberty to be free FROM Government imposition of religion in ANY way. Government must not single out one religious tenet or doctrine or any sets thereof as the ‘officially correct’ religious view. Government’s stance toward religion must be completely neutral – promoting none, prohibiting none, endorsing none, enjoining none.

  • Vince

    When are the anti-religion bigots going to go after the state flags that incorporate crosses?

    Also, the Connecticut state flag has the Latin motto, Qui transtulit sustinet – “He who transplanted sustains.”
    Florida flag has In God We Trust.
    Georgia flag has In God We Trust.

    • Trilemma

      None of those state flags incorporate the Latin cross of Christianity.

    • Guzzman

      I just reviewed pictures of all 50 U.S. state flags and did not see a single Latin cross anywhere. The Latin cross is indicative of Christianity and has been the subject of litigation. The heraldic and diagonal crosses you referred to are not considered universal symbols of Christianity.

      Two cities and a county government flag had Christian crosses at one time, but these local governments were all sued and ended up removing the crosses. The courts have ruled it is unconstitutional for government to throw its weight behind any one particular religion or belief. Under our system of law, government must be neutral towards different religions and beliefs.

      • Chet

        You fail to understand Christianity is no “religion”. Rather, it’s all about relationship, one’s relationship to Holy God Almighty via His only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ of Calvary. And no group of haters nor the Devil himself is going to stop God Almighty’s all volunteer army… Jesus saves!

  • Netizen_James

    People like their ‘traditions’, no matter who is harmed or marginalized thereby.

    To those accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.
    That is the sum total of what is going on here.

    • Well said! Fundamentalists talk about religious rights but they’re not being truthful. They mean their brand of Christian rights. They’d never allow an Islamic flag on the grounds even if some of the children are Muslim. They do not believe in equality either in the economy or society. And the folks in the White House on the Hill completely agree with them and ignore the Constitution.

      Besides, inequality of rights allows the wealthy to continue building their wealth on the backs of these fundamentalists who keep cheering for the political swamp to keep growing so long as other groups they abhor get hurt politically.

  • Chet

    This anti God anti Christ bunch is starting to fail very frequently even as more and more Christians and Jews Stand Up, Stand Up for Jesus Ye Soldiers of the Cross…