Prayer of Thanks Removed From Elementary School’s Thanksgiving Program Following Complaint

JONESBORO, Ark. — A prayer thanking God for life’s blessings was recently removed from an Arkansas elementary school’s Thanksgiving program after one of the nation’s most conspicuous atheist activists groups lodged a complaint.

The Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) sent a letter to the superintendent of the Westside Consolidated School District on Nov. 10 after being informed by a parent that students at Westside Elementary School were sent home with lyrics to memorize for the program, which included a prayer of thanks to God.

“Thank You for the world so sweet/Thank You for the food we eat/Thank You for the birds that sing/Thank You, God, for everything,” the poem was to have read.

FFRF contended that the prayer is a violation of the Establishment Clause of the U.S. Constitution, which reads, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.”

“[P]ublic schools have an obligation to remain neutral toward religion,” the letter read. “Moreover, inducing young and impressionable children to give thanks to God is a usurpation of parental authority.”

“Such a practice alienates the students, teachers and members of the community whose religious beliefs are inconsistent with the message being promoted by the school, particularly the 24% of all Americans, and 38% of Americans born after 1987, who are not religious,” FFRF asserted.

The group therefore requested that “all references to God or religion” be removed from the Thanksgiving program, and asked for a written response advising how the district would take steps to do so.

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According to FFRF, Superintendent Scott Gauntt conducted an investigation into the matter and after confirming the inclusion of the prayer of thanks in the program, had it nixed from the event.

“We will be more diligent in the future in an attempt to uphold the letter of the law in regards to separation of church and state,” Gauntt wrote.

FRRF has applauded the move removing God from the Thanksgiving program, calling it a “sincere action to uphold its constitutional obligation to protect the students’ rights of conscience.”

As previously reported, in 1828, just 52 years after the nation’s founding, Noah Webster, known as the Father of American Scholarship and Education, wrote, “In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government, ought to be instructed. … No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”


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  • Amos Moses – He>i

    Romans
    1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
    1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
    1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
    1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    the unsaved world ….. being thankful ….. with absolutely no one to thank …… /SMH …..

    • ThroatwobblerMangrove

      It’s an elementary school. Not the place for religions of any stripe, not just your own. And I KNOW how loudly you’d complain if it was a Muslim prayer.

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        yeah … really has nothing to do with my comment ….. surprisingly …… my comment does deal with the likes of you ………

        • Silas Jennings

          You are not in a position to talk about who is unsaved or saved. YOU are not God.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i made no assumption as to if you are or not …… the SCRIPTURE is a direct reference to it ….. your previous statements have made your position quite clear …… you do not believe scripture …… so i did not talk about it ….. YOU DID ….. and removed all doubt ………. check your rearview mirror ………..

          • Silas Jennings

            Irrelevant. You are not God. You do not know God and you do not speak for God.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Truth must be evident, otherwise it’s not truth. It isn’t something you are told by a holy book that you just accept. ”

            YUP ….. QUITE CLEAR ……….. you have made yourself known ….. no need to speculate …. no need to know God …. YOU TOLD US ……

          • Silas Jennings

            You still show no inderstanding of what truth is, you just claim you have it and people like me don’t. But not once have you defined it. That is lazy and sloppy.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i see …. i said nothing about truth here so far ….. but have it your way …. “But not once have you defined it.” ….. ummmmm ….. Christ is truth …. scripture is truth ….

            John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

          • Silas Jennings

            No, not according to my dictionary, nor any dictionary I can find. The definition of truth doesn’t contain the words “Christ” OR “scripture”.

            Maybe this is the problem you’re having. Try using a definition common to everyone on earth.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            again ….. this is a christian site …… clean off your glasses and figure out where you are …. the PRESUPPOSITION here is God exists ….. God is not a liar ….. and what SCRIPTURE says is correct ….. and it is not up for debate …..

          • Silas Jennings

            It doesn’t matter if it’s a Christian site. Word definitions do not change depending on a person’s adopted faith. I would love to know why you think that’s the case.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            it is not a christians choice to “adopt” our faith …. it has nothing to do with our decision …. but YES …. DEFINITIONS DO change ….. as we come into agreement with God and NOT in agreement with the world …… the world can say “sex” is whatever you want to do with your body ….. God says …. NO IT IS NOT …….. so a FUNDAMENTAL disagreement in DEFINITIONS ………. and part of YOUR problem is …. we may be using the same words … but we ARE NOT speaking the same language …………. not even close …….

          • Silas Jennings

            No, Amos. God’s feelings on the matter of sex, although they might differ from ours, does not alter its definition. Sex is sex. We define words. God doesn’t. And yes, every person of faith has decided which faith they wanted to be a part of, and that largely comes down to geography. If you were born in India, you would most likely have become a Hindu. If you were born in some war-torn little backward country in the middle of nowhere where there is no Bible for hundreds of miles around and no one who knows anything about Christianity, you would not be called by God to be a Christian.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            oh it most DEFINITELY alters it …… and just because you do not like the definition …. that existed PRIOR to the current definition ….. does not alter what God has defined it as ….

            ” every person of faith has decided which faith they wanted to be a part of”

            already proven false and you have not shown otherwise ….. men choose man made religions … God chooses those He chooses and man has no say in it ………… and since God has chosen them …. it is not really a religion ………. in fact GOD HATES RELIGION …….. so your premise is fallacious ………

          • Eldrida Urika

            Give me a scripture that tells us God hates religion after Jesus created the Christian religion? Please.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Christ created christians …. He created a church, a BRIDE …… He did not create a religion …..

            “…every abominable act which the Lord hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.” (Deuteronomy 12:31)

            “I have had enough of burnt offerings…Bring your worthless offerings no longer…I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts; they have become a burden to Me… So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you… I will not listen…” (Isaiah 1:10-15)

            “I hate, I reject your festivals; nor do I delight in your solemn assemblies…take away from Me the noise of your songs; I will not even listen to the sound of your harps.” (Amos 5:21-24)

            Christianity is the dynamic spiritual life of the risen Lord Jesus indwelling the spirit of man so as to create functional behavior unto the glory of God ……. Religion is the man-made aberration that attempts to impose absolutism, authoritarianism and activism upon other men …..

          • Eldrida Urika

            Maybe you should look at what Jesus said in the Gospel Amos, he redirected a lot of thinking about what God meant when he said things in the OT. He made what God wants more clear so we could follow them easier. He told us everything we are supposed to be as Christians. There wasn’t even a heavy command about sin other than we should try to avoid it and to LOVE instead of sinning.
            I guess you don’t understand that the way we live as Christians IS a part of our religions and so is our belief in the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ, but they are all a part of the Christian religion of belief. It is still considered a religion to follow it’s edicts. So you can believe it isn’t a religion but the rest of us know that those things are based in our religions. God uses many metaphors in the scriptures and that belief with Jesus and The BRIDE is a part of our belief, it is not the belief that shows us the rest of what Christianity is about in any way.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Maybe you should look at what Jesus said in the Gospel Amos”

            i have a red letter bible that has all that Christ ever said in red letters.

            Unfortunately for you, ALL THE LETTERS ARE RED. If it is in the bible then it came from God/Christ/The Holy Spirit. The God of the left side of the bible is the EXACT SAME GOD as the right side of the bible. There is no disagreement between the Triune Godhead on SIN.

            and for YOU TO SUGGEST OTHERWISE is BLASPHEMY …………..

          • Eldrida Urika

            You still use scriptures without the context being able to refute what I say, so they are not able to change anyone’s belief when they mean nothing TO THIS ISSUE.

            The Gospel tells us further about the things shown in the OT so we understand them better than we would.

            I use the whole bible but I know the gospel is meant to be the final word of God and it is the most important part of the bible because of that.

            By relying on the OT alone, you are missing the understanding that Jesus gave to us in His Word. You are in error by not understanding what the Gospel is.

            Not everything in the OT is clear in it’s meanings so Jesus told us what they actually meant. Give it a chance and read it this time with God’s help with understanding.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “to change anyone’s belief when they mean nothing”

            not my job to change anyones mind ….. it is all up to Christ …… i have no power to do so …

          • Eldrida Urika

            Yea that is why we are supposed to spread the gospel. Because Christ is going to make those believe the gospel so they will believe in him… nope doesn’t work.
            You will never understand what predestination really means to God and you refuse to listen to other scriptures that say something different than what you think those scriptures are saying. God doesn’t contradict himself, he makes things clearer for us to understand in the Gospel. If you think there is a contradiction, it is up to you to find out how it is NOT a contradiction, not ignore it as inapplicable to God’s Word, especially when it is Jesus who said the words DO MY COMMANDS – you are stating that Jesus lied when he said to you that grace is all you need to have to be saved, because it is HIM who says we must follow his commands, no one else.
            You never did answer what the words DO MY COMMANDS mean since you say they contradict God’s Word. If they can’t contradict God’s Word then what are they saying that does not contradict God’s word as they exist so you must know how to understand them without a contradiction, right? So what did Jesus really mean when he said the words “DO MY COMMANDS” and that if you do not do his commands that you are like a house built on sand that will wash away the house with the first storm.
            Enlighten me Amos. What can those words said by Jesus himself mean if they do not mean exactly what they say? Are you able to explain them for my understanding or are you leading others to the wide path by not including these scriptures in your belief?

          • Silas Jennings

            No. The definition is not altered. I just looked online, no one’s updated it since we last spoke. That’s how things are done in the real world, Amos. Everyone regardless of their faith has to speak a common language for us to understand each other and to enforce the law. God doesn’t make people Christians, and if He did, he’s severely ignoring certain continents in favour of other ones. Or haven’t you noticed? Not too many Christians in southern Asia, are there? Why do you think that is?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “God doesn’t make people Christians”

            again …..

            1:4 According as HE HATH CHOSEN US in him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
            1:5 Having PREDESTINATED us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, ACCORDING TO THE GOOD PLEASURE OF HIS WILL, (not our will)
            1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
            1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
            1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
            1:9 Having made known unto us THE MYSTERY OF HIS WILL, (not our will) according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
            1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
            1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED according to THE PURPOSE OF HIM (not us) who worketh all things after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL: (not our will)
            1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

            PREDESTINED …. saved BEFORE all of creation was created ….. BEFORE anyone ever sinned as they were not yet created …. GOD KNEW …. God is omniscient ….. God has ALL FOREKNOWLEDGE …… HE would not save a person and then reject them because (fill in the blank) ….. God does not renege on His promises ………..

          • Silas Jennings

            You are STILL misunderstanding your own book’s words, Amos. That is NOT what it means.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            so you are free to tell us WHAT IT MEANS ….. not that what you say about it has any value … as you REJECT scripture and you REJECT Christ and you REJECT truth ……..

            BUT ….. be my guest ……..

          • Eldrida Urika

            Many people who are followers of Christ do not agree with you about a lot of things, so you can’t be right about it all, Amos.
            I try to tell you my belief and you start being rude to me and targeting me with harassment trying to make me look bad.

            How is what you are doing in this discussion any different. You don’t like someone’s belief so you dismiss it with scriptures that are also explained other places in the bible differently than your scriptures and it totally ends up out of the context of the discussion.
            Get to know the gospel Amos. It will help you understand the OT much better.
            Oh and BTW your beliefs do not top anyone else’s and if you are so arrogant to think they do, that’s a sin and you won’t be able to justify yourself for being rude or arrogant. He asked us to have proper behavior (no rudeness) and to be humble. Quite the opposite from what you are to others.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “targeting me with harassment trying to make me look bad.”

            you answered my post …. i did not contact you first ….. you are delusional …..

            “dismiss it with scriptures that are also explained other places in the bible differently than your scriptures and it totally ends up out of the context of the discussion”

            God does not contradict Himself …. you contradict God ………. the scriptures are not out of context …. your use of them is ….. i do not care about the conversation ….. i care about Gods word not being abused as you do abuse it ………

          • Eldrida Urika

            I’d suggest you give up but I find trying to get him to understand those scriptures but he is very stubbornly limited to what he has been told is the only way to believe. It’s like hitting our heads against a brick wall called Amos for us.
            I applaud you for trying though!

          • TruthvLIes

            And no dictionary says that the definition of hate, bigotry or intolerance is to disagree with another person, but that doesn’t stop the rainbow raiders claiming every day they do.

          • Eldrida Urika

            That describes some of the worst Christians in our country that do show intolerance to people no matter how they are different. Why shouldn’t they react in kind?
            By the way their rainbow is nothing like ours and is becoming even less like it by adding black and brown to theirs.
            They have never used the same colors of the rainbow as the real rainbows so they never really tried to take our covenant from us in fact. Just that they like to represent the many differences in a variety of colors.
            Try to remember that it is because of our attitudes that others don’t believe. The Christians that show hate to others are one example that is why people show hate towards Christians.
            We have to show long-suffering towards other people’s behavior and disbelief. We have to try to help them understand, not make them think that it makes a difference what person we are speaking to. Jesus wants to save the world, not specific persons.

          • TruthvLIes

            Do you realise how arrogant you are?

            God has used people to speak on his behalf for ever and a day so why not Amos.

            Your arrogance is a deception that prevents you from seeing the truth.

            And if you are a born again believer, yes, you do know God and he does speak to you and yes he does speak through you.

            Instead of proposing your asinine take on the truth, why don’t you first of all learn what it is to save you sounding so stupid.

          • Bob Johnson

            So that would make Amos a later day Prophet, along with Muhammad and Joseph Smith.

          • TruthvLIes

            Why do you spend so much time trying to score nonsensical points?

            You sound more stupid by the minute trying to be intelligent but failing miserably with your “pathetic “gotcha” statements.

          • Eldrida Urika

            Rudeness is becoming of NO MAN.

          • Maxwell Edison

            Non sequitur

          • Eldrida Urika

            I was thinking about that too. If Jesus was just a prophet and Muhammad is the “last prophet” how does that explain their belief that Jesus is the one to come at the end days? Shouldn’t it be Muhammad not Jesus to save the world?
            It’s just something I have thought about before that I haven’t found the answer to yet.
            Amos is anything but a prophet. He’d know the gospel if he was a prophet. IMO

          • Silas Jennings

            It’s time for you to shut your mouth now. Clearly you’re just here to troll people so I can easily and happily shut your noise out by blocking you. Good luck being someone else’s troll problem.

          • TruthvLIes

            Projection much?

          • Maxwell Edison

            Wow. You come to a Christian website, show everyone you are not a Christian then call those who call you out a troll and you block them?

            Remember you may not see them, but they can see you and can still flag you.

          • Silas Jennings

            And you, who ARE (supposedly) a Christian, block people far more often and easily, usually as part of a temper tantrum and not because someone’s just being a jerk, Matthew. Pots and kettles and all that.

          • Maxwell Edison

            I don’t know who you are trying to impress by calling me Matthew, but this isn’t about me.

          • Silas Jennings

            Well if it’s about blocking, what about it? You do it more than anyone else. I have blocked on single person on my entire time here, and it’s only because he wasn’t discussing, he was just going nyah-nyah-nyah and I got tired of him like I’d get tired of a mosquito buzzing in my ear.

          • Eldrida Urika

            Silas, be careful of your words or you will be banned. If you want to attempt discussions here don’t lower yourself to their level by acting like them.

            Keep your thoughts on what you want to say, not just the things they come back with.

            Blessings!

          • Eldrida Urika

            Have you never noticed how arrogant The One Poster is about his belief being superior to all other religions in the world? That’s what he told me when I said other religions can have different beliefs and he said They are all wrong and God is never in error, or something like that.Either way he told me that his belief was the only right one. I find that much more arrogant than a man asking questions and not being answered but rather being blatantly treated badly.
            I have seen nothing of Silas Jennings’ posts that are rude in any way and he does not even over-react to the posts that are rude to him.
            He is obviously a man of intelligence and everyone has the right here to express their views no matter what they are without being demeaned for them. There are ways to say I disagree without being arrogant about your own view.
            You accuse Silas of not knowing the scriptures; how exactly you attained this belief is because likely that he opposes our belief in God, but that is when you should be able to fight for our Lord Jesus Christ with the scriptures as helping others to understand what those scriptures say, not try to rid yourself of a pest. Our scriptures tell us to be good to others and that particular poster has no understanding of that and even treats other Christians without respect. Personally, I believe in God and that the bible is The Truth but there is no reason not to discuss our faith with a non-believer ever not if they allow the discussion.
            I think you are rebuking the wrong poster, and assuming things that have not be said.
            I have no problem discussing my faith and standing up for everything I believe in. Some Christians would rather put the other person down for not understanding, and do not teach the Truth with firmness of their convictions so they can enlighten others to the Truth.

          • Silas Jennings

            I can say “scripture” too, Amos. I can even put it in capital letters for extra emphasis like you do. But when it is not relevant to a discussion, as it so often isn’t, I leave it out. When are you going to learn to do the same?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you are not relevant to the conversation ….

            “I can say “scripture” too, Amos. I can even put it in capital letters for extra emphasis like you do. But when it is not relevant to a discussion, as it so often isn’t, I leave it out.”

            “Truth must be evident, otherwise it’s not truth. It isn’t something you are told by a holy book that you just accept. ”

            hmmmm …. I can say holy book too, silas. I can even put it in capital letters for extra emphasis.

            but this is a CHRISTIAN site and a CHRISTIAN forum ….. and it is ALWAYS relevant here …………..

          • Silas Jennings

            I see, so when the discussion relates to something completely UNRELATED to scripture, and you’re not doing well in the discussion, all you have to do is say “SCRIPTURE” or “CHRISTIAN FORUM” to completely change the subject, and then you win because Jesus?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            again ….. this is a christian site …… clean off your glasses and figure out where you are …. the PRESUPPOSITION here is God exists ….. God is not a liar ….. and what SCRIPTURE says is correct ….. and it is not up for debate ….. and it has nothing to do with “winning or losing” ….. or “doing well or not” ….. it has to do with you reject scripture …. and i do not care if you do ….. it is not my job to convince you of the truth ….. it is my job to PRESENT the truth ….. the rest is above my pay grade and is between you and God …………

          • Silas Jennings

            Again…it doesn’t matter that it’s a Christian site. This is simple manners, ethics and logic that you’re dancing around. You don’t change the subject and say SCRIPTURE and walk away victoriously. It might make you feel good but it makes no sense.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            sorry … and AGAIN …. it makes no difference to me if YOU do not accept the truth presented ….. it is not my job to CONVINCE you of the truth ….. it is only my job to TELL you the truth ….. your idea of what is “simple manners, ethics and logic ” is not relevant ….. your “feelings” about it are not relevant ….. i do not care …..

            FYI …. SCRIPTURE is the truth …. and if you do not accept it …. not my problem … your problem … and it is not up for dispute …. i will just walk away ….. there is nothing further to discuss ……..

          • Silas Jennings

            Even if you think it’s the truth, even though you seem to have no understanding of its definition, respectfully you are not doing anything conducive to a discussion when you fail to answer a question put before you when you can’t answer it, and instead just say scripture is the answer, or God.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            your not liking the answer … does not mean there was no answer …………. nor does it mean that the answer is false ………

          • Silas Jennings

            You must provide answers that are understandable to other human beings, not just you and God.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … i provide answers to all …. and the understanding is again YOUR problem ….. because … and this key to why you do not understand …. you REJECT THE TRUTH ….. you do not KNOW the truth ….. you REJECT Christ ….. you reject SCRIPTURE ….. and the problem with that RESIDES IN YOU ……. and unless and until CHRIST remedies that ….. it will always be so …. and there is nothing i can do to alter it ………

          • Silas Jennings

            No, you aren’t going to “nope” your way out of this one Amos. To break it down to levels a five year old could understand, this is in essence what you’re doing:

            Me: What color is your jacket, Amos?
            Amos: JESUS!

            Me: What time is it, Amos?
            Amos: SCRIPTURE!

            So you’re not even answering the questions put before you, as a means of weaseling out of them you’re just deferring to either “scripture” or God. Even if you think scripture is to be perfectly obeyed and God is the creator of all things, they are not the answer to all questions and your dodging has reached epic proportions. This is what others are also trying to tell you.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            blue sleeps faster than Tuesday …….. the quick brown fox has Wednesday for lunch each morning at 4:30 PM ………

            and what is most interesting ….. you are making APPEALS to AUTHORITY …… and yet ….. YOU REJECT AUTHORITY …… but somehow you think YOU have even an ounce of AUTHORITY to IMPOSE YOUR OWN AUTHORITY here …….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            “blue sleeps faster than Tuesday …….. the quick brown fox has Wednesday for lunch each morning at 4:30 PM ………”

            So in defense of your own nonsense you spout more of it?

            I never make appeals to authority, that’s a logical fallacy. When I want answers I don’t appeal to anything. I consult definitive sources.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
            8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
            8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
            8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
            8:47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            The Hatter opened his eyes very wide on hearing this; but all he said was, “Why is a raven like a writing-desk?”

            “Come, we shall have some fun now!” thought Alice. “I’m glad they’ve
            begun asking riddles. — I believe I can guess that,” she added aloud.

            “Do you mean that you think you can find out the answer to it?” said the March Hare.

            “Exactly so,” said Alice.

            “Then you should say what you mean,” the March Hare went on.

            “I do,” Alice hastily replied; “at least–at least I mean what I say–that’s the same thing, you know.”

            “Not the same thing a bit!” said the Hatter. “You might just as well say
            that ‘I see what I eat’ is the same thing as ‘I eat what I see’!”

            “You might just as well say,” added the March Hare, “that ‘I like what I get’ is the same thing as ‘I get what I like’!”

            “You might just as well say,” added the Dormouse, who seemed to be
            talking in his sleep, “that ‘I breathe when I sleep’ is the same thing
            as ‘I sleep when I breathe’!”

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nice ….

          • Eldrida Urika

            You are making yourself an authority Amos by the way you word your posts. God is the only authority and you seem to think that your authority is equal to God’s and that is a lie. NO one is even close to God’s ability to be righteous and just. Certainly not you who does not show those two attributes at all.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            so you accuse me of harassment …. and then you harass me …. wow …..

          • Eldrida Urika

            You love to twist words just as you do scripture.
            I was not harassing you Amos, I did not call you nasty names, all I did was point out your error. That is not harassment like calling someone a false teacher is. Keep that in mind if you are able to.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            calling you a false teacher is not a nasty name ….. it is what you do … it is the truth …. and again ….. you started this contact ….. i said nothing to you ….. but now you want to respond to every post …. fine …. i do not care …..

            Luke 9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.

          • Eldrida Urika

            No I am NOT a FALSE TEACHER Amos! I teach strictly from the bible and just because it is NOT what you believe it does not make me a teacher who is lying about God’s Word.
            It is a nasty name. So if you don’t think so, then I guess I should refer to you as a false teacher for not agreeing with my belief. Except one thing. I am a child of God and I do not act like a child when someone disagrees with me, nor do I as a Child of Christ try to make anyone’s reputation bad by telling a lie. I know you feel the scriptures read the way you believe, but I also (as well as many others) have a belief that is from the bible. So it is not any more false teaching than yours is.
            I started this because you can’t seem to keep your nose clean when it comes to what the rules state. I have told you again and again that when you state that something is meant a way that I disagree with I will stand up for the way MY faith believes as YOURS is not the ONLY faith.
            Don’t expect me to allow others to think that your belief is the only or the right belief without telling them that there is another way that is righteous and just to believe in instead of the way you say we must believe.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Luke 9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them…..

          • Silas Jennings

            I don’t reject authority. An authority questioned by no one would be the dictionary. I don’t reject the dictionary. I accept it. My car’s manual? Very authoritative. I don’t appeal to it though, I consult it.

            I reject things people refer to as authority which aren’t generally accept to BE authority. THAT would be an appeal to authority, and in fact you do it constantly by pointing to scripture which everyone has the right to believe but IS NOT PROVEN to be what it claims to be.

          • Eldrida Urika

            I think the right word is that he prevaricates when asked questions he cannot answer.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            That is a great word!

          • Eldrida Urika

            I know! isn’t it? I have a few people who do that all the time and when I learned that word oh boy did it make it more fun to tell them that was what they were doing! Have fun with it, but don’t expect most people to know what it means unless they have discovered the word for themselves.
            Blessings!

          • Amen.
            You are correct and scripture, God’s word bears witness.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            No, he’s not correct, and neither are you. Answers to questions are not always “nothing matters outside of God’s word”. That is a cop-out.

          • Yes, he is and God’s word is true forever.

            Note: you are again blocked along with your other socks Peewee (just needed to flag your trolling and harassment). After all, what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?
            2 Corinthians 6:14-17 (KJV)
            14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
            15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
            16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
            17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

            Seek Jesus Christ.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            It isn’t harassment to tell you when you’re wrong, Lady Checkmate. You are doing what Amos does, providing a non-sequitur answer to a question that wasn’t being asked, and you’re being dishonest and disingenuous by claiming this is the truth. If it is, it’s not relevant to the discussion at hand. As I have patiently and tirelessly explained to Amos for weeks and weeks now (tehehe).

            You can save your proselytizing for your echo chambers. I’m not interested. And no one is going to see what I said to you as harassment – just because you can’t delete the things you don’t want people to read here doesn’t mean you’re being harassed. The word you either can’t comprehend or can’t accept is “disagreement”.

            Seek counselling, preferably someone who specializes in paranoia.

          • Eldrida Urika

            How are we supposed to reach them to bring them to Jesus if we don’t speak to them? Trying to make a non-believer into a believer is not done by refusing to have anything to do with them.
            Yes do not hang around, do not pick up their sinful habits, but we need to help them understand not just leave them to what we know is their punishment.
            Jesus came to save the world, not just a few select people, and if there are any who have been elected to be saved, and that is a big IF, He told us more would turn to Him so there is a good chance that even while some might be predestined to be saved, others are still able to be saved as well.
            Jesus wants everyone to be saved, and if he wanted only a select few he would have said so. He didn’t say that those are the ONLY ones to be saved.
            So how can we obey Jesus’ commandment to spread the gospel without speaking to people of other beliefs (or no beliefs)?

          • Silas Jennings

            Just popped your head in to go “neener neener” and then run away again, eh? Who’s the crybully now? And by the way, you forgot to pepper your sentence with “alt-left” 500 times. Which is not a word, by the way. 🙂

          • Eldrida Urika

            You don’t convince many Christians either and we do accept the Truth, so I don’t think it is strictly a rejection of truth, but more likely that it is a rejection of YOUR truth, which is different than other Christians Truth.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … you accept your out of context use of the truth …..

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you REJECT truth …. and this is why you do not understand … and as i said ….. we may be using the same words …. but we are NOT speaking the same language ……….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            You cannot tell me I reject truth when you have shown no understanding of it yourself, nor provided a definition. This is your corner you’ve painted yourself into, and yours alone to get out of.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            so just more of your mindlessly repeated babble …. asked and answered ….. just bloviation …… you reject the truth …. nothing left for discussion ……..

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            You didn’t answer. You NEVER answer. You dodge and dance around and have no respect for accepted word definitions and leap to general answers of God and scripture when you are cornered.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you cant hear the answer …. the answer has been given 3-4 times ….. you are deaf to it …. i would type it all in all CAPS … but you still would not get it ……… again …. you cannot hear the truth ….. you reject the truth …. the truth is Christ and the scriptures …… but you cannot have that in your life ….. as you fear it ….. it would mean that you have to change …. and unless or until Christ intervenes ….. you wont ………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            The answers to the questions I asked you are not God or scripture, because neither one is germane to the questions themselves.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Luke 9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            I gave you Alice in Wonderland last time, what would you prefer this time? Wizard of Oz? A bit of Tolkien?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Luke 9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them……

          • Eldrida Urika

            That’s your new “ignore” isn’t it

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Suddenly Uncle Henry stood up.

            “There’s a cyclone coming, Em,” he called to his wife. “I’ll go look after the stock.” Then he ran toward the sheds where the cows and horses were kept.

            Aunt Em dropped her work and came to the door. One glance told her of the danger close at hand.

            “Quick, Dorothy!” she screamed. “Run for the cellar!”

            Toto jumped out of Dorothy’s arms and hid under the bed, and the girl started to get him. Aunt Em, badly frightened, threw open the trap door in the floor and climbed down the ladder into the small, dark hole. Dorothy caught Toto at last and started to follow her aunt. When she was halfway across the room there came a great shriek from the wind, and the house shook so hard that she lost her footing and sat down suddenly upon the floor.

          • Eldrida Urika

            HIs new version of “IGNORE” again.
            kind of like when a person puts their fingers in their ears and sings lalalala I can’t hear you! because they refuse to listen to anything that they don’t want to hear.

          • Eldrida Urika

            It’s not their fault you can’t cope with standing up for your beliefs Amos. It is your duty to be able to withstand any question about our faith in God. You resort to ignoring, prevarication, and blatant rudeness to insist you are right and they are wrong without saying what you base this belief on within the scriptures.
            You can try to deflect your ignorance of the scriptures all you want, but we know what the truth is because of the way you react when you can’t give a valid answer to what the issue is.
            Everyone on this board knows what kind of poster you are. Everyone here knows you won’t be able to prove your points properly but we just want to keep trying so maybe some day you will be able to prove it to others.

          • Silas Jennings

            Well, maybe if you tried answering questions with actual answers and not Biblical deflections, we could get somewhere. I don’t know why you resist it so much. It works perfectly well with everyone else on earth I talk to.

          • ThePantomimePrincessMargaret

            YOU are the one rejecting the TRUTH, you doofus. You don’t even accept what the freaking DICTIONARY tells you.

          • Eldrida Urika

            This is a Christian News Site Public comment board and anyone can post here, whether they are Christian, Atheists, or a non-believers of any stripes.
            The whole point is to discuss other points of views here. I know you think of it as a Christian comment board but it is a public board not restricted to Christians.
            It is whether a person can maintain a Christian attitude while discussing opposing views that makes for a good discussion, not just dismissing everything because their belief does not align with yours. We are supposed to be able to stand firm in our faith and be able to support why we are believers. Not be arrogant and try to ignore the true discussion.
            Remember the rules Amos

            We welcome readers to comment on stories, but we will not tolerate
            remarks containing profanity, vulgarity, violence, blasphemy, all caps
            or ANY DISCOURTEOUS BEHAVIOR. Thank you for your cooperation in
            maintaining a RESPECTFUL PUBLIC environment where readers can engage in
            reasonable discussion about matters affecting our nation and our world

            Be aware of your post wording Amos.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i did not say they were not welcome ….. false conflation ………. the point of CHRISTIAN NEWS dot net and its forum is to discuss CHRISTIANITY …… and discuss it from a CHRISTIAN worldview ….. and when others come here and DEMAND that a WORLDLY worldview need be embraced …. then they get the treatment that deserves …. and that is TO BE REMINDED OF WHERE THEY ARE ….. and the purpose of THIS PARTICULAR FORUM ….. and you should take your own advice ………… particularly the bit you conveniently want to overlook ……… BLASPHEMY ……….. it will not be tolerated ……….. RESPECTFULLY or otherwise ………..

            Be aware of YOUR post wording Beamer ………….

          • Eldrida Urika

            hahahahaha you make me laugh. You have gone beyond many of those rules with me alone and you continually do that with others too.
            By the way, in case it is in the part of the NT you haven’t read, the only way to blasphemy according to scripture is to speak of the Holy Spirit in a blasphemous way.
            Mark 3:28 – 29
            28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
            29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
            The poster did not say anything that is considered a blasphemy towards the Holy Spirit which is the ONLY one that is not forgiven.
            You tend to put meaning into posts that are not meant in any way.
            By saying this is a Christian site, you are denying other people’s right to have their own beliefs and to discuss them with others that do not have the same belief. That is discussing religion and is what is supposed to be done when people come in here who are not believers, ie. with the Worldview that prevails in THEIR world, it is our responsibility to try to change that view, not to dismiss it because it is different to ours.
            The fact that most conversations here are about beliefs, means that he is doing what he is supposed to do and discuss his belief with someone showing him the way we believe and why; not just rant that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. How does that help him to believe what our belief is? It doesn’t in any way.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i would show where you have blasphemed the Holy Spirit ….. but …. ummmm …. oh gee … about 90% of your posts just …. ummmm …. DISAPPEARED …. because you THREATENED the mod and the website …. soooooooo ……….

          • Eldrida Urika

            Gee about that much have disappeared because I flagged them and I would lay odds that you flagged my replies that reflect your ignorance of the bible.
            Please tell me how I EVER blasphemed the Holy Spirit? ONE Example of that.
            It’s hard to be blasphemous about something that dwells inside you – I’m pretty sure the Holy Spirit would stop anyone with the Spirit indwelling them from being blasphemous about anything in the bible.
            I know you don’t understand or believe in the Holy Spirit indwelling within us as the bible TELLS us it will, and you don’t believe or understand that there are 2 baptisms at all when it is the second baptism that the Spirit comes to be indwelling with us.So I guess that means you don’t have the Holy Spirit dwelling within you and that takes any authority to speak of my having the Holy Spirit as incorrect in the very first place from lack of knowledge and lack of experience feeling the Holy Spirit moving within you.
            Prove I don’t have the Holy Spirit Amos. I challenge you to find a way.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “because I flagged them and I would lay odds that you flagged my replies that reflect your ignorance of the bible.”

            FYI …. i do not flag … i do not block …. i do not seek to have people banned ….. i do not make public threats to do so to other people who use this forum ….. and then when it all backfires ….. vent my anger at the person i falsely believe did it ….. THAT BE ALL ON YOU …… and then falsely accuse ….. gee …. that be a sin ….. aint it …..

            Luke 9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.

          • Eldrida Urika

            So you say…

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Luke 9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them…

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “I will keep reporting your behavior to the Mod. so you had better be banned or I will make the complaints about this to Disqus itself. ”

            So YOU SAID …………….. do i need to post the other post you made about having me banned ….. or is this enough ……..

          • Eldrida Urika

            OH I thought you said those were all removed Amos? another lie.
            I have the right to go to any length I need to to get a person banned for going against the rules and harassing me and trying to make people think I am a false teacher Amos. I flagged over 20 posts of you harassing me and I put a post up directed to the moderator to ban you; and look at that! you are not banned! with all those markers against you by all rights you should be banned by those flags, so if you do not know the moderator I think it is still questionable about why you are not banned.
            By the way, it wasn’t just talk. I did go and complain that you were not banned even though I flagged you over 20 times so now I am just waiting to see what happens if you are not banned.
            I do not just speak to hear the sound of my own voice, any more than Jesus did. You will not be allowed to keep calling me things to ruin my reputation or I will go to higher levels to complain. All you have to do is act LIKE A CHRISTIAN and stop calling me names and stop LYING about me. That should be easy for a true Christian.

          • Eldrida Urika

            Discussing Christianity is included with the people who disagree not just people who agree with us.
            You really have to learn what Blasphemy is according to the bible.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Luke 9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.

          • Eldrida Urika

            So you aren’t ‘receiving’ me so I should shake the very dust from my feet for a testimony against YOU?
            You really need to understand that Gospel Amos to recognize much of what you use to prove your points is in no way proving them. If you knew the Gospel you would have more in context than the ones you use.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Luke 9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.

          • You know, I’ve watched you threaten and harass Amos for weeks (because he’s a bible-believing Christian) before I banned and blocked you. Its’ not Christ-like behavior. I wonder why you haven’t told him that you already posted an OP on Discuss Disqus 3 days ago (complaining about this channel, it’s moderation and the user you stalk and harass here), that was pretty much ignored because Disqus does not moderate individual blogs/channels. Basically, as long as a user doesn’t violate the Disqus ToS, your empty threats mean nothing…so you can stop targeting, harassing and threatening him now. No one is afraid of you. Your threats mean nothing as our hope is in God. Disagreement is not a banable offense and contrary to what you may believe, you can and will be disagreed with when what you post contradicts God’s word and you don’t get to target and harass bible-believing Christians for disagreeing with you SharonatHome, MamaBearly, Beamer, EldridaUrika, et al. Just so you know, we disagree with you because what you share is not biblical. Ask yourself why you stoop to such tactics and dishonesty, when you know as well as I do that you made your account private to hide the fact that you had already complained t-h-r-e-e days ago. Seek Jesus Christ.

            I’m going to block you again because your threats and harassment are beyond what I’m willing to entertain, but I will continue to pray that you come to know Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. God bless.

            P.S. I’m tempted to post the link here so that others may see the hypocrisy, but out of respect for the channel owners and mods here I won’t.

          • Eldrida Urika

            YOu were obviously reading HIS remarks harassing me as well as My supposed harassment of him. I was defending myself and my belief how is that harassment?
            I did tell him that I went to disqus to complain although I didn’t state when.
            Another one who keeps thinking I MUST be my Cousin. I won’t even address this again. Think what you want but we are two very different individuals with the same belief and it’s not Amos’ way to believe but it is just as valid.
            I do not lie about ANYTHING. It is against my personal beliefs in how to behave towards others. Do not call me a liar as I am not one.
            I do not take other people’s name or accounts when I am very capable to creating my own account just like they are..
            My account has been private for a lot longer than 3 days ago. It made it private when Amos began to try to ruin my reputation, just like he did with my cousin.
            So are you telling us that you are the moderator here Lady Checkmate since you mentioned banning me yourself? If so you are not following the rules and you are allowing Amos to go directly against them as well.
            How do you justify saying I was harassing Amos? Prove to me that it was me harassing him not the other way around.
            Can you? NO because all I did was tell him to stop calling me a false teacher and to be better behaved to others. So you are the one who is lying about who hassled who. I have the right to my belief just as Amos does, and I am not going to sit back and deny my belief because Amos does not agree and has to resort to calling me a false teacher instead of trying to support his own belief.
            I am very careful not to cross the line and I do not ever go against God’s Word and I follow Jesus including the commands that Amos insists do not matter. Do you expect me to let it go when he tells me I am wrong but cannot prove it? Would you not defend yourself against someone calling YOU a false teacher? Or who insists their religious beliefs are the only ones that are right and yours is wrong. Is that a Christian way of behaving towards others who are in Christ too.
            I point out his mistakes not demean him about his misunderstanding the scriptures. It is not my fault he does not even look for the scriptures that I tell him to look for. He can’t tell me why Jesus told us to do his commands but didn’t really want us to do them, not really. Jesus did not speak to hear his own voice and when he told us to do something it was with the understanding that we would.
            So since Amos can’t defend his position, perhaps you are able to.
            If grace is all we need to be saved and have nothing else to do to be saved, why did Jesus tell us to do his commands and that you won’t be saved if you do not do them. Are you able to explain that Lady Checkmate? Amos is not able to.

          • Maxwell Edison

            You can say scripture. So can the devil. What’s the difference?

          • Silas Jennings

            Even the devil (or at least the way your kind imagines him) knows when scripture is being properly invoked in a conversation. Amos doesn’t. I can be asking him a question such as why he argues or ignores a dictionary definition and he will suddenly and triumphantly declare “SCRIPTURE!”. Which is a non-sequitur which makes no sense.

          • Eldrida Urika

            the devil can’t repeat scriptures with the goodness of the Word of God in it’s meaning. It can only twist the scriptures to mean other unrighteousness. If someone is using the scriptures the way they are written and intended to mean, it is what the difference is.

          • Maxwell Edison

            Actually Amos is. And you are making it obvious.

          • Silas Jennings

            Actually pseudo-Christians like you and he are laughingstocks, Matthew. To Amos’s credit however he hasn’t been banned fourteen times as you have.

          • Maxwell Edison

            Again, this isn’t about me or Matthew. Ad hominem FAIL.

          • Silas Jennings

            You’re quite handing with the ad hominems yourself, or you wouldn’t be banned as often as you are. Amos might think he’s making some points but in his own mind doesn’t count.

      • Maxwell Edison

        But just fine for teaching homosexuality and the transgender myth, right? Anything but the mere mention of God!

        • ThroatwobblerMangrove

          It isn’t a myth just because you hate it. If transgender people exist, and they do, isn’t it better to teach elementary school kids about them and kill the xenophobia and hate before it starts? You really want to turn them into what YOU have become?

          • Maxwell Edison

            Red herring.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            What red herring? You’re talking about the teaching of homosexuality and transgenders, and that’s exactly the issue I addressed, head on. You make it sound like they’re teaching kindergarteners all about the worst stereotypes of the LGBT world like the drag queens and nearly-naked caricatures dancing on floats in pride parades. They aren’t. They’re teaching that these people exist, and they aren’t freaks of nature so can you please not kill them or beat them up just because your religion teaches you to.

          • Maxwell Edison

            Those were cited within the context of comparison, not as an invitation to attempt to change the subject.

            It’s a red herring.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            “But just fine for teaching homosexuality and the transgender myth, right? Anything but the mere mention of God!”

            That’s your quote, Matthew. Own it. And don’t blame people when they respond to it.

          • Maxwell Edison

            Yeah, Silas. Or Throatwobbler. Or PantomimePrincessMargaret. Or whatever sock puppet you want to be, bigoted troll. I said what I meant and I meant what I said.

            Red. Herring.

            Own THAT.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            How am I supposed t own your paraoia? I am none of those people, and you can’t prove it. Are they all people who owned you in the past?

          • Maxwell Edison

            Can you prove I am the latter three? How do I know you are not all six?

          • Eldrida Urika

            Can I ask you a question. Why must people always be a sock puppet instead of their own persons? Not all people come back as someone else, so just because they seem to write the same way has no backing to say it is the same person.
            Besides why come back to a place who is so intolerant of the Christian faiths that do not agree with theirs if they have gone to the trouble of banning you. I think that would be rather masochistic to want to come here and be trashed by the posters here banned and come back, don’t you?
            I am my own person but everyone insists I am my cousin and I can’t seem to get it through their insistence that they are wrong and I am just Eldrida not her.
            So how can you be sure it is not someone else instead of it being a sock puppet? It is in my case so it stands to reason that it could be the same for others.

          • Silas Jennings

            “Can anyone be so kind as to flag Netizen James, Mark Sebree and that Silas guy? In the school coach praying story at Christian News (dot) net Silas is trying to get me banned by telling lies because I am going after the Anti-Christian trolls in there. The mod is once again not doing their job and banning these lefty libtards when they openly attack people of faith and lie about it!”

            So these are the depths you plumb, Matthew, running crying to vermin like Lady Checkmate to come to your aid when you don’t like it that people stand up to your bigoted comments? That is beyond sad.

          • Maxwell Edison

            Flagged for flagrant harassment and trolling.

          • Maxwell Edison

            Flagged for harassment and trolling.

          • Silas Jennings

            Christian News Network, please review Maxwell’s comments on this forum and count the number of times he calls someone a name. Your website states clearly that disrespectful behavior will not be tolerated.

          • Maxwell Edison

            Flagged for harassment.

          • Silas Jennings

            It isn’t harassment to point out that your behavior is disrespectful and rude.

          • Maxwell Edison

            No, you posted the same thing twice, as well as something else, with the intent of trying to get me removed because you want to be able to use this forum to spread hate unchallenged.

            You may have noticed the last you tried that, your post was deleted. The fact your behavior is continuing is textbook harassment.

          • Silas Jennings

            My behavior is consistent and respectful. Yours is not.
            You have assembled a lynch mob on another website and are trying to get simply dissenting opinions removed. You consistently call people idiots and liars and blasphemers – anyone who wants to can go and see for themselves. You have done this using the name Jason Todd, and also Jerome Horowitz and slidellman4life. There is no poster here as aggressive, angry, demanding and rude as yourself. You should have your posting privileges removed until you learn to discourse with people respectfully on a public forum.

          • Maxwell Edison

            Once again, flagged for harassment.

            Are you not taking the hint?

          • Silas Jennings

            If you continually flag for harassment things that are not, you will be banned. Continue.

          • Maxwell Edison

            Excuse me? You don’t get to decide what is harassment, and you are not in a position to threaten me.

            Flagged!

          • Silas Jennings

            I am not threatening you, I’m just telling you for the last time to obey the site’s rules. It is a Christian site after all and there’s precisely nothing Christian about your behavior.

          • Maxwell Edison

            The irony of that statement is so rich…wow.

          • Eldrida Urika

            Our religion does not tell us to kill or beat them up. It tells us to be tolerant and to be good to all others no matter what their perceived sin is, as only God has the authority to condemn anyone and that will not be done until Judgement day (according to our belief) We are never supposed to intentionally harm another person for any reason. ever.
            I agree that tolerance of differences is most important for the children of this world to learn because of the way the world is turning away from God. They need to get along as well as to know the word of God, and I recognize that they are not trying to tell kids to BE like them, only to not be hurtful towards them for being different. If they were trying to get them to actually BE what they are not then I would complain, but I don’t see how tolerance is against the Word of God, even if the people we need tolerance for go against our God because it is of their world not ours. We do not have to give up our beliefs to be able to get along.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Your religion doesn’t tell you to kill them or beat them up. That’s true. But some of your more ultra-right wing people, the Amoses and Lady Checkmates and Maxwell Edisons of this world, have misunderstood that message. That is the point I was making. I know most Christians are kind and reasonable people. I don’t lump you in with them. I hope you will understand that as my default position moving forward.

          • Eldrida Urika

            I now do understand that and I appreciate your maturity in not thinking one person is like this and therefore all must be like that.
            It is the people who do not understand that grace is about the forgiveness of sin to allow us to repent and be forgiven.
            They seem to think Jesus said no more about how to be saved in the Gospel when that is what the gospel is about.
            They frustrate me too. Thanks for clearing that up, I appreciate that. Blessings!

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Yes, it’s also interesting to me that the breed of “Christian” I described, Amos/LC/Max’s group, are also the ones that wouldn’t consider YOU to be Christian at all, when your understanding of it is so much more inclusive and loving.

          • Eldrida Urika

            Thank you for saying that. I do try to be a good representation of my Jesus, and it is nice when someone tells me I have achieved it in some small way.
            I really don’t understand how any Christian who believes in the bible could treat another Christian the way they do. We’re supposed to love our brethren over all other people. I guess they missed that scripture too.
            I wish more Christians with the same belief that I have would start posting and telling these posters that they are not the only way to believe and that others do not agree with their belief because there is so much scripture that opposes that belief.
            Someday I hope and pray the majority of the Christians who are good people will stand up and oppose the Christians who have so much hate in their hearts instead of love.
            Some of them do not agree with the way Love is used by Jesus. SMH I sometimes just pity them for it, because the way Jesus told us to be, is not what they are being and it’s a pity they won’t listen to others about it. From what Jesus said, it will be the ones that do not do his commandments that will lose their salvation, but you know, he was just saying anything that came into his mind and it didn’t really mean anything to us. I don’t think Jesus ever said anything he didn’t mean. They don’t want to do his commandments, they will be the ones to suffer it in the end, not the ones that do follow Jesus with all his commands, and not just a few preferences they are willing to follow.
            No cherry picking what Jesus tells us will accomplish anything about our salvation. We must do all of his commands period.
            One of the interesting things about their belittling everyone elses belief is that it goes directly against what Jesus told us in two ways, he told us that if we are for Christ, and not against him, we are a part of his followers and not to stop him from preaching or doing miracles. He also told us that there are 7 churches and that means 7 Christians faiths and different ways to believe. They seem to think there is only one way to believe when there are more that still align with Gods Word whether they know it does or not.
            Pass it on to the good Christians that they need to stand up to the Christians who act without reflecting Jesus and stop them from making the world think we are all such awful human beings who hate everyone. It upsets me that people think that Christians hate anything but sin. But such is the way the world is turning now and it is because of the hateful Christians that the world has turned away from God. Who wants to be a follower of someone who hates.
            We are known by our Fruit of the Spirit and those are attributes of a true christian to show the world who we are. Love, Joy, Peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance. People seem to forget to display these things so others will know they are true Christians by their behavior. Good Behavior not bad.
            So I look at these posters for those 9 characteristics and do not find them, so to me, they are not true Christians as they do not show what Jesus told us to show.
            That’s how anyone can find a Christian is by their behavior and attitudes. (Jesus told us in the bible!! lol!) personally I find it easy to be a good person and it is hard to even imagine treating someone badly. I even had trouble defending myself at times because of that.
            To quote Kermit: it’s not easy being a frog; it’s not easy being a Christian that is not what some people want to see in a Christian.
            Blessings!

          • TruthvLIes

            Xenophobia – dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries.

            Since when has transgender people been classed as people from another country?

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Xenophobia can also mean the fear and distrust of that which is perceived to be foreign or strange. I think that applies very well to the attitudes of a lot of people here towards LGBT people in general.

          • TruthvLIes

            The dictionary says……Xenophobia – dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries.

            it does not say…..Xenophobia can also mean the fear and distrust of that which is perceived to be foreign or strange.

            So far I have not seen one comment that suggests people have a fear of homosexuals. That is beat up by the rainbow raiders.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            That is ONE SENSE of the word.

            Merriam-Webster: xenophobia:
            fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or foreign

      • TruthvLIes

        Do you? Tell me, how many cases have been brought before the courts by Christians because a school used a muslim prayer?

        • Lark.62

          Santa Fe v Doe was brought by christians – catholics and mormons – who did not want to listen to protestant prayers before high school football games.

          The thing is, before one can abuse government authority one must have government authority. And christians wield the vast majority of government authority in the US.

          When muslims make up a significant percentage of public school employees, overreach by muslims will become more common.

          This is why defending first amendment limits on government authority matters. One day, the principal wanting to read prayers over the public school intercom may not have the same deity as you.

    • Amen.

  • Faithwalker

    Separation between church and state does not designate totally erasing God from the public domain.

    • Dan Bixel

      The Free Exercise Clause of the Constitution guarantees that we are all free to worship (or not) as we please without interference from the Government. The Establishment Clause guarantees that Government (including schools) cannot support one religion over another. On matters of religion, the Government must remain neutral. Students are free to pray (or not) and to read their Bibles. Schools, as offices of the State however, cannot promote Christian (or any other religious) observances. The Constitution is the law of the land–not the Bible.

      • Maxwell Edison

        The Constitution doesn’t say that. A man in a black robe did.

        • Lark.62

          The authority of the Judicial Branch was eatablished by the Constitution.

        • TheKingOfRhye

          A man in a black robe whose job per the Constitution it is to interpret the laws of the United States.

          • Maxwell Edison

            His job is to find if laws are compatible with the Constitution. Not to create laws. That is wholly the responsibility of the Legislative Branch, or Congress.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            True. But interpreting laws is not creating laws.

      • TruthvLIes

        There Is no mention of government in the First Amendment. The restriction applies to the Congress, not government.

        And until schools become the Congres, they can do what they like.

        • Lark.62

          Read the 14th Amendment. The restrictions on government established by the Bill of Rights apply at all levels of government. Including schools.

          • TruthvLIes

            the 14th Amendment was written in response to the needs of former slaves after the Civil War.

          • Lark.62

            It is part of the Constitution and remains in force.

          • TruthvLIes

            And it applies to former slaves, not homosexuals with a chip on their shoulders.

          • Lark.62

            You clearly have not read the 14th Amendment.

          • TruthvLIes

            If I have not read the 14th Amendment how come I know that it refers to blacks that were slaves?

            And I am sorry your are not happy.

          • Lark.62

            Perhaps you can point to the section that refers to “blacks who were slaves.” (Hint – it is not there. )

            Section 1, however, protects the civil rights of all person and prevents state level government from infringing on civil rights.

            Amendment XIV
            Section 1

            All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

            Section 2

            Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, ….

            Section 3

            No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, ….

            Section 4

            The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

          • Nick Halflinger

            Then they should have clearly stated it only applied to former slaves, just like that 2nd Amendment should have started the right to bear straight-bore flintlock rifles.

    • Maxwell Edison

      That’s the FFRF’s endgame. Anyone who tells you different is ignorant or a liar.

    • mr goody two shoes

      No it’ cries out any god will do ya breaking the first commandment that’s not why God set up governments so they could sin against him. No he set them up to protect his people so they could live in peace and tell there neighbor who God is and what he did on the cross for them

  • sammy13

    “Thank You for the world so sweet/Thank You for the food we eat/Thank You for the birds that sing/Thank You, God, for everything,”

    I learned that prayer in kindergarten in 1955. PUBLIC kindergarten. Just before milk and cookies. It harmed me not!

    • Lark.62

      And the Supreme Court ruled in the early 1960s that the government cannot tell you or your children which god to pray to.

      Would you feel the same if your children were taught to pray “There is no god but allah and muhammad is his prophet.”?

      I don’t want a government employee using government authority to tell my children what religious rituals perform or which deity to worship.

      And since protestant christians won’t be in the majority for much longer, now is the time to start caring about making sure the religious rights of the minority are protected..

      • TruthvLIes

        Citation to prove what you say is true about the Supreme Court in 1960.

        • Nick Halflinger

          Engel v. Vitale (1962) – Justice Hugo Black writing the opinion
          Abington School District v. Schempp (1963) – Chief Justice Earl Warren writing the opionion

          after the 1960s we have other rulings of interest
          Wallace v. Jeffrey (1985)
          Lee v. Weisman (1992)
          Santa Fe ISD v. Doe (2000)

          • TruthvLIes

            My question was addressed to lark. You are not allowed to impersonate another poster.

          • Lark.62

            The Supreme Court rulings are correct and applicable no matter who cites them.

            In fact, if you were to google “school prayer Supreme Court rulings” you would find links to these cases. You could read the full text and reliable summaries and learn about the limits placed on the use of government authority to promote religion.

          • ThePantomimePrincessMargaret

            Seriously?
            It’s a public forum. Anyone can answer.
            Is that what you think “impersonation” means?

          • TruthvLIes

            Non sequitur

          • Lark.62

            Thanks

      • Eldrida Urika

        This is not worship or prayer, it is a poem. for kindergarten kids to learn about telling others that they are thankful.
        I was taught this and I did not feel a thing about the government approval or disapproval I just wanted to do what the teacher asked.
        Tell me, if they can’t use God in this poem what are they supposed to be thankful TO. Science? It did not do those things, it just found out that they were done.
        Tell me what other poem there is that thanks for those things without it being believed that a God was behind them?
        You always bring up how we would like it if they prayed or whatever a different God than ours and this has no praying or worshiping to the poem at all. Thanking someone is not either of those things especially when it is small children reciting it.
        So since you want to remove this poem, should we remove thanksgiving day altogether because some people do not give thanks to our God? For that matter to all God’s that are believed in because it does not say it is a Christian poem. and all religions believe in a supreme being who is considered a God.
        Which religion is this poem promoting again?

        • AlienFactor

          It is not just a poem, it is a prayer of thanks that us very much like saying grace before a meal. As such it has no place in any Thanksgiving program dictated by the state.

          • Eldrida Urika

            Even a prayer of thanks for a meal ends with Amen.

          • Nick Halflinger

            So can schools start saying the Lord’s Prayer again at the beginning of class just as long as the teacher leaves “Amen” off at the end?

          • AlienFactor

            The headline in the story admits it is a prayer.

          • Eldrida Urika

            Actually, it is what the media called it, not always the same thing as ‘admitting’ when you think about it.
            Anyone who sees this as a poem rather than a prayer would have not put that headline but the media likes to stir things up and aim their headlines at that purpose. IMO
            There is a positive and a negative way to look at things and it depends on what reaction the media wants to encourage to make more hits on their sites. So I take headlines with a grain of salt so to speak, until I read the article and make my own personal decision on what it is about.
            Negative connotations lead to negative reactions and visa versa. We react to what we hear, read or see in a way that is consistent when the images in our head make it negative or positive. So if we react in a specific way to negative the media will know how to direct it to make the most of it. So they do.
            Another editor might have gone with poem to not make it controversial from the get go, and the reaction would have been different.
            My Dad was an Advertising VP and he taught us about their tricks and ways to direct others thoughts to what is their objective. I’m able to notice things like that and look at the information without tipping the way I feel to one side or another first because of the headline.
            At least that is the opinion of a senior lady who has had a long time and experience to see these things and use my experience to help others to see them too.
            Blessings!

          • AlienFactor

            “Anen” as translated through Latin and Greek is simply a statement of “So be it”. It is neither a part of the prayer itself nor a necessary post-prayer statement. It commonly follows a prayer, said by the person offering the prayer or those in attendance, but it is most commonly said by reflex and habit – apparently by you with no conscious understanding of what it means or why you are even saying it.

          • Eldrida Urika

            I replied to another of your posts and I don’t want to repeat what I said in it, so please look for it.

        • Lark.62

          It is a christian prayer.

          A person can be thankful for family and friends and other good things without believing in supernatural forces. You scolded other people for arrogance. Think about the claim that one must believe in your specific deity on order to feel gratitude. Wow.

        • Lark.62

          I was taught this and I did not feel a thing about the government approval or disapproval I just wanted to do what the teacher asked.

          • Eldrida Urika

            No I liked to say a pretty poem for the parents . I’m not going to keep explain in about this because every time I have you call me a liar about everything I say. If you want to discuss something with me, stop being Judgemental towards me. I do not hide who I am I show who I am and I have never lied here before nor will you calling me a liar make that change. Take you disrespect to someone else.

          • Lark.62

            I disagree with you. I have never thought you were lying. And I have never accused you of lying.

            I think you don’t understand that non christians would view that poem as a prayer. I think you are incorrect.

            In no way does that make you a liar. I apologize if I came across that way, but that was not my intent.

            Consider this. Think about the christians you know. Would they be okay if their children were instructed to say

            Thank You for the world so sweet
            Thank You for the food we eat
            Thank You for the birds that sing
            Thank You, Allah, for everything

            Thank You for the world so sweet
            Thank You for the food we eat
            Thank You for the birds that sing
            Thank You, Krishna, for everything

          • Eldrida Urika

            Thank you for the apology. I appreciate it very much.
            I honestly do not see it as anything big enough to matter. As a Christian I believe in being tolerant towards other religions as Jesus told us to be. It does no harm to us if we are strong in faith to mention another faith. I would not feel threatened by another faith because I am God’s. I gave him my life and I will not take it back.
            You have helped me to know why you are concerned about it, but I always understood, I just think it is too minor to make a difference to children that young. It makes little difference to me anyway, I have no young children anyway and I don’t see any grand-babies in the future either. Like I said, it just seems like such a small thing and it is for the children and I am always pro children. I showed my children how to make decisions so I didn’t have to worry they would just accept things without giving any thought to them. I think all children should be taught to question things. Heck my kid once told his teacher she had a fact wrong and she had to admit he was right. Not many get away with that kind of thing, but he didn’t do it meanly, he just excused himself and asked if she had realized her mistake.
            And I am disappointed that everyone wants Christianity gone from the public eye. It is sad that those Christians have made us have a bad reputation because being a Christian isn’t supposed to make us into bad people it is supposed to make us even better than we can be without guidance.
            They make it seem like God wants to control you, but that is not what he wants to control. He wants to help us live a life of love and happiness and the only control he wants is to be able to help by providing for us, protecting us, and guiding us with his knowledge and powers so we can be happy and loved by him. God wants to love us and have us love him back. Simple as that. Nothing bad or nasty about it.
            I think I’ve already explained it to you. so I won’t keep pushing it. You know what I believe about God and it’s ok if you do not agree with it. As long as we are not going to fight about it, all is good with me. I hope it is with you as well. I much prefer to have good discussions than argue.
            Blessings! (you don’t mind me saying that do you? I don’t mean to offend you by saying it, ok?) I promise to try to remember not to if it bothers you but it’s really just my way of signing off I guess.

          • Lark.62

            The first commandment says to have no other god but the biblical god. When I was a Southern Baptist, they took this seriously. Prayer to any other god was idolatry and a sin. Many christian parents object to their children learning about muslims and their basic beliefs and holidays. I don’t think they would sit quietly and let their children be led in a prayer to allah.

            That you wouldn’t mind being instructed to pray to someone else’s god is good. But I hope you understand that not everyone feels the same.

            You said

            I just think it is too minor to make a difference to children that young.
            Young children are protected by the first amendment. Jewish parents have the right to send their children to school with confidence that they will not be instructed to pray christian prayers. I have the right to send my children to school confident that teachers will not instruct them to pray to any gods.

            The young age of the children makes it worse, not better. A friend of one of my kids scared him with tales of hell. He had nightmares for quite a while. But I never had to worry about teachers or authority figures reinforcing those tales. That mattered to me.

            You said

            And I am disappointed that everyone wants Christianity gone from the public eye.
            It is important to understand the differemce between “in public” and “government directed.” Religious activity in public is fine. Really. There are at least a dozen churches within 3 miles of my house and each one has a great big cross. Right there in public. No problem.

            The child who told my kid about hell had every right to discuss his beliefs.

            I have no problem with my children learning about religion. I only have a problem when people use government authority to amplify and give weight to a.2 religious message.

            I strongly support the freedom of religion guaranteed by the First Amendment.

            To me, a person backed by government authority telling my child to pray is not a minor thing.

            Thanks for listening and trying to understand.

            “Blessings!” doesn’t bother me. Thanks for asking.

            Cheers

          • Eldrida Urika

            Oh dear that is awful to hear about. The other child’s parents obviously use that as a threat to make them behave.
            Our church does not look at the negatives, we look at the love and what God’s Word means and hell is what we learn to avoid by being good not because if we are bad we deserve it.
            By saying this could send me to hell, but instead think I have to be good so I can be with God. I want to be good so I can go with God. We teach not to sin but do not threaten them with hell as a way to make them behave.
            I guess if I had had the same experience I might have immediately agreed with you. I will definitely consider it when I am talking about Christians in the school.
            I’m so sorry for that to have happened. It is so unnecessary to use that as a threat. and so sad that they think it is something they want to scare their kids with, instead of encouraging good behavior without the threats.
            Please allow me to reconsider the matter and understand where you are coming from.
            I can’t imagine every threatening anyone with hell “if they don’t behave” so I never considered that when I commented. Thank you for telling me so I could understand better. I do appreciate knowing and I will keep that in mind in the future.
            Blessings to you and your loved ones.

          • ppp777

            ” Tolerant towards other religions ” , now that is true Christianity [ not ] .

          • Eldrida Urika

            I’m tolerant of anything because I am sure of my faith in God. any other religion has no fear to me as My faith in God exceeds anything another religion could say to me. I guess my tolerance is how I can show love to everyone and still obey all of Jesus’ commands. If we are not tolerant of others differences why should others be tolerant of ours.
            I am not saying to join them, i am saying to tolerate them and show them that how we behave is a reflection of our Jesus and influence them not have them influence our faith in our Jesus. Tolerance is just good behavior. We tolerate our parents old fashioned ideas. We tolerate it when others do things by mistake. We tolerate others to get along. It does not mean we agree or anything else, it means that we are strong enough in our faith alone to be able to tolerate what comes to us in life, without fear because God is with us and he will protect us. Who shall we fear when God is with us?
            And if most Christians are not tolerant enough to get along, they are not showing the love that Jesus told us to have for everyone.

            Reply

          • ppp777

            You cannot be tolerant towards other peoples belief systems if the violate yours , get on by all ,means and if you have the chance learn about their faith and give them the gospel ” believing comes from the hearing of the word of God ” , the power is in the word .

          • Eldrida Urika

            The teacher told us nothing about god when we learned that poem. it wasn’t about god it was about little kids that wanted to recite it. Our exposure to God was the Lord’s prayer which was said by rote more than with feeling. I remembered it for years after I was in school and I expect most of us have that memory that grew up with that, but I can’t imagine how it could have hurt anyone by repeating it. If you are going to believe, it will not come from wanting to please someone.
            Children at 4-5 years old do not have their own religious beliefs. they have their parents’ beliefs. Most of those that age do not even understand the concept of an all powerful being except the super stars like Superman and batman. I wouldn’t be surprised if some think God is a superhero and they just haven’t seen the comic or movie yet. Kids just do not care about adult things like that. They have too much to see and do and learn about to focus on that for too long.

            I know children and I am basing what I say on what children in the kindergarten level think like, not just because I want to be difficult. I do not see a word like god being so influential to a child of that age that it will make any difference if they were saying God or Fred Flintstone so it is not about religion, it’s about a word. a simple word that if no one makes a big deal out of, the kids will forget about after they start the next lesson. Worrying about a child’s religion coming from a poem and it is said to be a poem, not a prayer in the article by the teacher, who grovelled at the mention of the error and became ashamed about it, instead of standing up for the children and that they will not learn about God by saying the name.

            Otherwise who really cares when we know all Christianity is to be persecuted and as close to destroyed as non-believers can make it. We all know it is coming to that, we’re not blind to the direction the world is going in regards to our faiths. Unless there is a sudden change of heart that means others will let us have our beliefs and we won’t bother yours it will happen. No matter how much we want the world to see Jesus for who he is and how much he loves everyone even sinners, the ears of the world will not hear.

            I just know in this particular case that people are reacting to the adult who is offended by this, without considering the children and their capabilities at that age.

            If you went and asked a kid in that school who god is now, he might not know who you are talking about even though they recited the poem a week ago. People are trying to make it like kids are the same as adults with how they think and they are still trying to find the right way to do too many new things to be troubled by a word.

            I know the government and religion is now a no-no but it doesn’t mean I have to agree to things I personally see in a way that is from my life experiences and the things I have learned. I don’t agree that saying the word god will be anything to a child shortly after they are finished reciting the poem. It’s not a big deal to them, it’s a big deal to adults only.

            Yelling at me about them not being allowed is not accomplishing anything. I’ve been told about it numerous times by numerous people. But it doesn’t mean I have to agree with it. So it is a waste of time to get upset with me about how other people behave. I can’t change them and I don’t have the right to expect anyone to agree with me just because I believe that way. Everyone has a right to their own opinion. Whether another person likes it or not, it is our right to be able to make decisions for ourselves.
            So stop telling me over and over about religion and government because I don’t think you have said anything anyone else hasn’t said first.

            If you want to convince someone you’ll have to go to someone else. I don’t really care if you agree with my opinion or not. It affects me in no way. Just like my opinion has no effect on you or your life. So calm down and try to keep your head when you are trying to make your point and don’t get so worked up about it. You won’t convince people of what you want to by being so uptight about it. If you believe in your convictions then no one should be able to bother you as you know what you believe. So be confident instead of aggressive and you might reach someone who will change their view, but no one wants to listen to someone so excited about what they need to say that they become like they are obsessed with the topic. Be firm and stand your ground but don’t freak out when others disagree. Go on to the next one and see if there is a difference in them from the last one. Don’t keep trying to make people agree with you, because for most people it will push them away from you and your convictions not draw them nearer to agree.

            Seriously, I am trying to help you , so you can reach others with your need, but it is up to you whether you consider it to be good advice. I just like to help others, that’s all.
            When you think about it, I am helping you to do better at convincing people to not agree to religion and government when I should not be helping you at all. I just view things differently because of my life and my age. I try to be a good person towards everyone so you are not an exception to me. OK? So please consider my words.
            Blessings!

    • Eldrida Urika

      I am too not harmed from reciting that poem, and it didn’t make me worship Jesus any faster since I was old before I accepted Jesus into my life..
      That poem was about being Thankful.
      Thank you for the world so sweet/Thank you for the food we eat/ Thank you for the birds that sing/ Thank you NOBODY for everything just doesn’t cut it, you know.
      So are we now only supposed to thank people and that poem is not allowed even though some people do have the belief in a god and not just a Christian God.
      You don’t want your kid to hear about God and his goodness, then teach them that you do not believe.
      It’s a poem for goodness sake it isn’t going to make anyone believe anything just by saying it. shouldn’t it have to be a real claim not against a poem that the children recite without giving much thought to God, but to the words and the poem so they will not make a mistake when they recite it.
      Being thankful is important and that is what the poem is about. It doesn’t say ONLY GOD could have done these things. Besides, without the last line it even removes the idea of being thankful.

      • AlienFactor

        I can say “I am grateful for the world so sweet” and so on, expressing the exact same sentiment without thanking any god, without resembling prayer. Then there would be no question about the program’s constitutionality.

        • Eldrida Urika

          It’s not a prayer nor does it resemble a prayer as there is no Amen.
          IT is a poem, nothing more nothing less and it is to show them about being thankful. What is the problem with adults having to put things into kids lives that have no impact until they are interfered with. I bet half those kids never even asked who the god was they were thankful for, or why they should thank him specifically. All they knew was what was in their tiny little ego and how the recital was going to make them feel so good.
          Why hang adult beliefs on little kids and take away a poem for such a unnecessary thing? Why can’t kids have fun and not be constantly told how to think because that is what their parents want them to think and to heck with everyone else? That is the attitude that is going to ruin this world I’m right no I’m right and you are wrong.. I insist you agree with me and if you don’t I will sue you for it. Next thing you know it will be illegal to think at all. So forgive me for being able to see what the intolerance of this world is going to end up like. It is too obvious to think it will end up in any peaceful way with everyone insisting on themselves being right and demanding everyone agree OR ELSE.
          You see it as some sort of prayer, I see it as a poem of Thanks. Period.
          Each to their own opinions.

          • Lark.62

            So if teachers taught your child a poem thanking allah or krishna for life’s good things, you would be totally fine as long as there was no “amen.”

            Seriously? I don’t think so.

            The poem says: “Thank you…. Thank you…. Thank you …. Thank you God ….” and you are trying to say this is not a prayer addressed to the deity you call “God”?

            Better check thst bit about bearing false witness.

            There are dozens of ways to help kids express gratitude without reciting a prayer to an invisible deity. My kid brought home a picture with “I am Thankful for” pre printed in the middle surrounded by a dozen or so boxes to be filled in and colored.

            I betcha some of the kids put god or Jesus or church in one or more of the boxes. That is absolutely okay. Kids can express religious beliefs. The government simply cannot instruct, encourage or influence personal religious belief.

            This would be easy to understand if you think about how you would feel if your child were instructed to recite a hindu prayer. That’s how I feel when my child is instructed to pray to your deity.

        • Eldrida Urika

          I still think you are putting more emphasis on the word God than is intended. This poem has been used for decades and no one has been converted because of the word God. I think you want to control everything that might be about God because you can’t explain him away. If you think a couple of kids saying the word God is going to make any difference to whether anyone believes in God? You are putting yourself into one of those little kids and being afraid to believe. Kids at that age don’t care about those things only adults do. Kids just enjoy doing things that are new to them. They really don’t try to analyze what the words say beyond the simplest meanings. They do not instantly become aware of things that complex (as God is complex) and end up needing to know why they are saying good in the first place. I think some of the insistence to remove a word from everything is a bit beyond what is necessary and if you want to ride the world of the fact that it is still the way the majority of the world believes you should at least go for real problems rather than petty little ones that had no influence on how people believe in the first place. I received the same poem and had no religious training until I was a senior. So I know for a fact it had no influence on whether I believed in God. why would one word make a difference to belief when children don’t understand what this world is like in a big way? Their world is all about themselves and it is by teaching them just to be thankful that they start to have their eyes opened to the importance to say thank you for things. Not to Good only, butt to everyone. Take the word out if it is so offensive to get but why is it necessary to have your way with everything without any consideration for anyone else at all? Who gives you all rights and ours has been given no worth in the world’s eyes because of you? We have a right to live the way we choose but you won’t let it be anywhere that others can hear and choose to believe for themselves. You want us to hide from the world. I’ll tell you something about believing. It is like knowing about transgender and expecting people to become transgender just because they know about it. No one will be converted at the age of 5. You worry about our beliefs taking root just by hearing the word God you must worry about a lot of things in the world creating people just by seeing or hearing a word.

          • AlienFactor

            Why are you so insistent on keeping it if it is only a poem, one that can easily be reworded to convey the exact same meaning and with no potential to offend? Is it that to you it has a religious meaning beyond just being a poem?

            Christian priveledge has permitted unconstitutional infractions for so many generations that there is a sense of entitlement to these infractions. Now there is pushback, and you don’t like it. FFRF says the prayer must go, you say the poem must stay. A court will decide who is correct.

          • Eldrida Urika

            Actually if you read all my posts I don’t really say it must stay – I’ve said that it will be viewed the way it is as a prayer so fine I just think it is too small of at thing that it needs to be fussed about this much.
            If someone had not told the media about it, the teacher would have been told, and changed the poem without anyone being the wiser. It has become a bigger issue than it ever needed to be at all. Schools make changes all the times and were just as able to deal with this without all this. That teacher felt bad about it so obviously she would not have objected to any changes asked for.
            So yea, I don’t need to push an agenda for my Jesus, because he controls things, not me, but my opinion is just as valid as anyone else’s. so when I feel like I should, I give it, and when I speak about scriptures it is not my opinion it is God’s Word.
            In my view, we need to make a stand for our belief, just as anyone does, but I believe that this won’t make a difference to the people who are strong in faith because they know they are being told that it not permitted anymore, but it is necessary to still make our beliefs known to others.
            Anyone who has a belief, doesn’t want to let it go because of others who do not believe in the same thing ever, right? So by making it known that we still believe in the way it was done before, is really more of a statement because our hands are tied with the laws.
            We do wish that God was in everyone’s life, because of how it has changed our lives. It is the same for anyone who finds something awesome and wants to let everyone know about it so they can find it too. A new food? a new place to go? a movie? anything they want to share is no different than how we feel about our faith. Can you see that?
            So objecting to removing God from the public is just plain hard to have to allow just because it is taking away our belief from others to know. No different that anyone else’s desire for something to be in public in any way. Some push the envelope a little too far, but we really just feel good about our lives and want others to have that same feeling of contentment and peace we have. Is that really wrong to want for others?
            I however do not believe pushing our belief at non-believers is how to let them see our lives are better. So it is when they push that people push back and that is why there is more going on to get religion out of the school system. People are pushing back against the Christians that try to tell others that they MUST recognize what their belief is and act accordingly when Jesus doesn’t want that. He wants his followers to come of their own will, not be being pushed into it. But the push back is already in motion and is not likely to stop until it is done. We have to find an equally effective way to still reach others but when one opportunity ends, everyone should look for another one to reach their goals.
            So yeah, that’s my opinion from my experience.
            BTW I have only been a part of a religion for the last decade or so, other that hearing bits and pieces but never really listening before then. I know about how I felt before and how I look at things now, and still can utilize both to help others with their understanding when I see the opportunity.
            TBH helping is the thing I love to do best. Making people happier in their lives, even making people smile or feel good, it is what I do always, and have done always. Christ is an extension of that desire for me because it is how he wants us to behave.
            Blessings!

  • Nidalap

    If the Founders had intended for the Establishment Clause to be implemented in this way, they’d have done it themselves…

    • Lexical Cannibal

      So here’s why this doesn’t work for me:

      *puts on 1860’s hat*

      If the founders had intended for the negro man to be free, they would have done it themselves!

      *takes hat off. Burns hat. Washes out mouth.*

      While there’s certainly still plenty of common ground, what the founders want and what we believe is good becomes vanishingly disimilar.

      • Maxwell Edison

        Racism? You’re actually comparing religious freedom to racism?

        • Lexical Cannibal

          Nope, I’m using something we can all hopefully agree on (“Slavery is bad”) to make the point that what the founders intended may no longer be in line with what we hold as being good and desirable today.

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        pssst …. LINCOLN did not want them free …. and in fact … many of the founders wanted them free …… but that is really a red herring argument ……..

    • TheKingOfRhye

      You want to talk about what the founders intended?

      “Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely
      between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for
      his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government
      reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign
      reverence that act of the whole American people which declared
      that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment
      of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus
      building a wall of separation between church and State”

      “I am for freedom of religion, & against all maneuvres to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another.”

      – Thomas Jefferson

      • Nidalap

        Well, for one thing, unlike the Tigger, he wasn’t the only-est Founder.
        For another, there’s a difference between opining about and implementing said Clause…

  • Lark.62

    I do not want the government deciding who my children will pray to. Do you?

    If it is okay for a teacher to teach all children a christian prayer, then a muslim or hindu teacher could lead your children in prayer to allah or krishna.

    Seriously. Think this through.

    • Vince

      Holidays always seem to make atheists cranky.

      • james blue

        Seems to drive Christians to distraction as well.

        • Vince

          Thought I blocked you.

          * bye *

          • james blue

            Oh no, how will I cope?

    • TheKingOfRhye

      10 people down-voted that comment. (since I have that nifty add-on that shows that)

      Really? That many people here think it’s okay for government (which public schools are a part of) to lead children in prayer no matter what deity that prayer is to? I find that mind-boggling, honestly.

      • Silas Jennings

        It’s just Checkmate and a few of her socks.

      • Lark.62

        Rather scary.

        The First Amendment protects christians, too.

  • Croquet_Player

    Put “Zeus” in place of “God” in the rhyme, and watch how fast zealots will start complaining about it.

    • Nidalap

      And how many of you would stop complaining…

  • sharpss

    I believe that someday religions will be gone. Until then we need the likes of the FFRF. People of religion just won’t leave their neighbors alone. Soon we will have the battles of Christmas, where there will be religious displays on public property because evidently all of those church properties on almost every block aren’t enough for the faithful to demonstrate their Godliness. They will perpetuate these fairy tales into the foreseeable future by brainwashing their offspring as soon as possible after they are born. It has worked extremely well for some thousands of years. Hurry up “someday”.

    • Maxwell Edison

      Trolling. Flagged.

      • ThroatwobblerMangrove

        It was a perfectly acceptable post. You are far too sensitive.

    • Eldrida Urika

      And brainwashing their offspring to believe in Santa Claus with absolutely no moral or anything to teach our children anything but selfishness is OK, instead of having someone who WE believe makes our lives better.
      So what you are saying is that you have more rights to believe what you believe than we do to our beliefs. Is that what you meant?
      Can you imagine how many Christians there are that NEVER bother their neighbors in any way at all. The number of arrogant Christians is a minority of the number of Christians that do not protest or insist the world follow our way of life. Most of us try to live our lives humbly not arrogantly. Most of us just want to help where they can and do good to other people.
      Most of us who do believe are nothing like the ones that are hateful towards anyone who sins because we are all sinners and we have no right to demean anyone or take away anything that they need to live life without problems caused by us.
      By the way, Christmas is not a Christian holiday. We know Jesus was not born around the Christmas Day and it is just a day of celebration of his birth, not the day of his birth.
      You are basically stating that we have to give up our beliefs because you don’t like them. too bad. Christianity is set up to teach people to be good loving kind people and to appreciate the guidance of our Lord Jesus to give us that better life.
      On the other hand without God and his help your way of the world is more likely to destroy any goodness in the world. Everyone wants their own way and will fight for it without any consideration for anyone else at all. People, including non believers hate the way they are forced to accept anything at all let alone people who are trying to say they are mentally ill for believing what they believe, but we are criticized for believing in our God which has had a following for centuries, against for believing in our God. The things that are considered to be ‘normal’ in this world are not ‘normal’ to our thinking at all. Trying to say God will be lost to the world is not being realistic. God has been known as real to wayyyy to many people. You might try to take God out of our world, but it won’t happen because we will always have our faith in our God no matter what others think.
      I don’t like thinking of this world where everyone fights with each other because they have a different way of looking at the same things.

      I don’t like the idea that people are not considerate of each other in any way anymore when it comes to the controversies in the media.
      I don’t look forward to someone telling me that i have no right to believe the way I want to because it will not change my faith it just limits who else is able to come to know Jesus. Our faith will not waver because the world doesn’t like us. Just like gays and transgenders won’t stop being in the world, neither will we. Not likely all religion will ever be gone from the world.

    • TruthvLIes

      And I believe that you live in cloud cuckoo land. Even the Muslim religion which I despise is growing at a rate of knots. The Christian faith is growing at a rate of knots just not in America. Census shows that the interest in spirituality is growing by the day.

      It looks like your wish will not come true.

    • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

      When Christ receives His Bride you will will have your wish.But there is a price to pay when the Bride is gone. It will not be the greatness you think it will be.

  • TruthvLIes

    It is evident that the atheists, in their attempt to silence religion other than their own, are using the First amendment to mean anything they want it to mean to serve their ends.

    The first Amendment is very clear….CONGRESS shall not…..

    Since when has a school been Congress?

    CONGRESS shall not……

    Since when has anything been Congress except Congress.

    • Bob Johnson

      Didn’t you say the other day that the Civil Rights Act didn’t apply in your country? How you are claiming “First Amendment” and “Congress.”

      • TruthvLIes

        Obvious that you are grammatically challenged.

        I did not claim anything.

      • TruthvLIes

        I am not claiming anything.

    • TheKingOfRhye

      “It is evident that the atheists, in their attempt to silence religion
      other than their own, are using the First amendment to mean anything
      they want it to mean to serve their ends.”

      “The ‘establishment of religion’ clause of the First Amendment means at
      least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a
      church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions
      or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a
      person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force
      him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be
      punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs,
      for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or
      small, can be levied to support any religious activities or
      institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may
      adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal
      Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any
      religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of
      Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was
      intended to erect ‘a wall of separation between Church and State.”

      Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black (a Christian)

      • TruthvLIes

        The First Amendment is very clear…

        Congress shall not…..

        No mention of the state, the school, Council offices, Christmas trees, crosses, and so on and so on.

        Purely and simply, the Congress shall not…..

        • TheKingOfRhye

          “No mention of the state”

          Supreme Court decisions have interpreted the 14th Amendment to mean that the First Amendment applies to the state governments.

          Like was asked elsewhere in this thread though…think about it, is this what you really want? Schools being able to support one religion over any other? Because that might not always be the one you’d want it to be.

          • TruthvLIes

            The First Amendment needs no interpretation.
            Congress shall not…..
            Everyone knows what Congress means except activist judges that is.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            I find it interesting that you would say that the First Amendment needs no interpretation. In this very thread, you came up with your own (wrong) interpretation of the Fourteenth, claiming it applies to former slaves (which, if true would mean it no longer has any application) but not homosexuals.

            Also, I seem to remember not that long ago, you were criticizing me for not knowing the law of your country of Australia. Now you claim to know US law better than the vast majority of people in the legal profession in the US?

            I have to ask again, since you didn’t answer my question at all…..would you really want to live in a country where your children (if you have any) could be in a school-led prayer of a religion other than the one you raised them to believe in? Do you think that would be okay with you?

          • TruthvLIes

            A bit of a conundrum isn’t it.

            it wasn’t my interpretation, I took it from an article written explaining the First Amendment.

            Your last hypothesis is moot as my children were educated in the schools of my choice so the situation never arose.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “Your last hypothesis is moot as my children were educated in the schools of my choice so the situation never arose”

            Fine, but it’s still a hypothetical question, and you can still answer it. Or, forget about YOUR children, and just replace that with any Christian children in general. Do you want them to be possibly part of a school-led prayer of a different religion?

            Or, I’ll put it this way: Let’s say I’m a teacher in a US public school. By what you say, it would be perfectly fine if I led the kids in reciting an invocation to Satan, right?

          • TruthvLIes

            My life is based on reality not hypotheticals.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            In other words, you just choose to ignore the implications of your positions. Okay then.

          • TruthvLIes

            Life is so much more interesting if you don’t try and solve all the problems in the world. Because my world is in the here and now and not in the what ifs, I can enjoy what I do as I am not trying to second guess every move I make and every move every one else makes.

            And I don’t know what position you are talking about as I do not have any positions because I am retired. If I wanted positions, I would not have retired.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            You don’t take a position on anything? Then what are you doing commenting on stories like this, if you don’t care one way or the other?

          • TruthvLIes

            I have lots of positions. I have a seating position when I am driving my car. I have a horizontal position when I am lying on the bed. I have a relaxed legs up position when I am Watching TV. I have a stand up position when I am lecturing. I have a kneeling position when I’m gardening. I have a position of intensity when I am researching on the internet.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            I could continue in the same vein, but if I did, the comment would probably get deleted for being “vulgar” or whatever they call it.

        • Bob Johnson

          Yes, Congress shall make no law. However, government and the people who act for the government can only do those things for which Congress has permitted them to do. Now, Congress has delegated much rule making to states, cities, and regulatory agencies. Yet the authority of those laws derives from Congressional laws. This is one of the reasons why we have a Federal court system, to determine if local laws or actions exceeds the Congressional law’s intent.

          So while the local police officer can not start arresting all Christian, so too the public school coach can not lead or encourage the team in chants of “allahu akbar” or a Christian prayer.

          • TruthvLIes

            That is about the 57th interpretation of the First Amendment I have seen. Seems to me the USA is up the creek without a paddle because it spends all its time interpreting things that need no interpretation.

          • Bob Johnson

            Well, that is what happens when new technology comes along. First we had radio and television wanting to be included with “freedom of the press” yet neither used presses or printed newspaper. The courts extend protection to these new news sources. More recently the First Amendment was extended to provide protection to Internet publishers (Reno v ACLU 1997).

            It is not just the First Amendment, look at all the case law on the Second Amendment. The world has come a long way from the straight-bore flintlocks of the American Revolution. Some things are in, hand grenades and nuclear warheads are out.

          • TruthvLIes

            So what you are saying is when the First Amendment talks about Congress shall not that it does not mean that if you have a computer?

          • Bob Johnson

            Actually it means just the opposite. It means that despite the First Amendment never mentioning computers, that is the First Amendment only mentions speech (vocal) and (printing) presses, you sitting at your computer can still receive First Amendment protection for what you type and distribute electronically.

            So it still means that when the First Amendment states that “Congress shall not” the court in Reno v ACLU concluded that the Internet constituted speech and was protected under the First Amendment and when Congress passed a law abridging those rights it, that is Congress, exceeded its authority.

          • TruthvLIes

            Only because you say so. I could say it encompasses those that make politic a religion which some do, but it doesn’t say that so it is not valid.

          • TruthvLIes

            No it doesn’t say that. It says that Congress shall not establish a religion or or prevent the free exercise of it and it doesn’t say unless it is done on school premises and then it can stop it.

  • Trilemma

    I think the word, “god,” in the little poem is generic enough that I don’t think there’s an endorsement of religion. If Christians hear the word “god” they think of Jesus. If Muslims hear the word “god” they think of Allah. If Jews hear the word “god” they think of YHWH. Atheists who believe in god will think of their idea of god. Saying the word, “god,” doesn’t promote or endorse any particular religion. Nor does it promote religion in general because religion involves behaviors related to a belief in god which this poem doesn’t promote.

    However, I think it’s wrong to require all students to recite the prayer because of the use of the word “god” in the poem. But I think it would be okay for a single student to recite the poem who volunteered to do it.

    • mr goody two shoes

      Trilemma. That’s exactly the problem Many confessional luth

    • Lark.62

      The government cannot promote religion.

      The government cannot direct children to talk to a deity, no matter how generic.

      The government cannot direct one child to talk to a deity out loud while everyone else listens.

      Parents have the right to teach their religious beliefs to their children. The government cannot promote religious belief or religious observance.

      • TruthvLIes

        I think you wil find that the First amendment says that Congress shall not.

        A school is not Congress so it does not apply to it.

        Atheists have made the First amendment say all sorts of things that it doesn’t say.

      • Trilemma

        ”The government cannot promote religion.”

        True. But a student is not the government.

        ”The government cannot direct children to talk to a deity, no matter how generic.”

        True. But students can volunteer to do it.

        ”The government cannot direct one child to talk to a deity out loud while everyone else listens.”

        True. But a student can volunteer to do it.

        ”Parents have the right to teach their religious beliefs to their children. The government cannot promote religious belief or religious observance.”

        True. But this poem does not promote religious belief or religious observance any more than, “In God We Trust,” on money or the President saying, “God bless America,” at the end of a speech.

        • Lark.62

          Students can pray. Students can ask other students to join them in prayer.

          Volunteer? As in school employees organize a time for all children to listen as one student performs a religious ritual, then they pretend they did not enourage the prayer because they pawned that role out to a child? Nice try, but no.

          People acting with government authority cannot promote religion, no matter how hard they pretend that they for reals aren’t really encouraging religion.

          A student may talk about religion if it doesn’t interfere with instructional time. People acting with government authority cannot arrange things to make other kids listen to the religious speech.

    • TheKingOfRhye

      “Atheists who believe in god”

      No such thing, that’s a contradiction in terms.

      • TruthvLIes

        Atheists have an inordinate fear of God because if they admit he exists they will have to give control of their lives over to him and that is anathema to an atheist.

        • TheKingOfRhye

          No, atheists do not BELIEVE in any god or gods. That is literally the definition of the word.

        • Lark.62

          Do not bear false witness.

          I fear deities, yours included, exactly as much as I fear Voldemort and Dracula.

          It’s the fan club, not the character, that concerns me.

      • Trilemma

        Theism is the belief in a personal god that interacts with creation. Deism is the belief in an impersonal god that does not interact with creation. Atheism is the rejection of theism but not necessarily the rejection of deism. Therefore, an atheist can believe in an impersonal god.

        • TheKingOfRhye

          I always thought of deism as a form of theism. It is a belief in a god, just a different sort of god than others. An atheist is someone who does not believe in a god of any sort.

          • Trilemma

            Typically, an atheist is someone who believes there are no gods, neither personal nor impersonal. But there are some atheists who make a distinction between theism and deism. Here’s one. (Delete the space after each dot.)

            www. patheos. com/blogs/camelswithhammers/2011/06/its-atheism-not-adeism

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Hmmm….it seems like just a little bit of a different way of looking at the question, I guess. The author of that piece says he believes no personal god exists, but he’s agnostic about a deistic one. That’s close enough to what I believe, even though I’d rather call myself an agnostic atheist than a “gnostic” one like he does.

  • mr goody two shoes

    In my thinking i would say Martin Luther never taught separation of church and state instead he taught God ruled over both church and state and the state job wasn’t to teach the gospel of Jesus And the church’s Job wasn’t to Govern over the people . yet they should peacefully work together so these things could both be done in a godly way. We need Godly leaders to bring us to that cooperation of both church and state instead of seeing the two as enemies of each other like those atheist want.

    • Amos Moses – He>i

      “Martin Luther never taught separation of church and state nor more importantly does the Bible”

      22:17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
      22:18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
      22:19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
      22:20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
      22:21 They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.
      22:22 When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.

      two separated spheres of influence …. a Venn diagram would be two circles, slightly touching but very little overlap …. actually a third circle could be added ….. the family, father, wife and children …..

      FYI …. the rapture ….. will be the final separation between church and state …..

      • mr goody two shoes

        Jesus is teaching give ceased what’s ceaser’s and God what is Gods because were citizens of both of these kingdom God rules over.

        • Amos Moses – He>i

          God setup governments to govern men ….. but God NEVER gave the government of this world authority over His church …..

          • mr goody two shoes

            If your a believer your his church and The government is over you because God set it up that way. Jesus humbled himself and became one of us Jesus told pilot he wouldn’t have authority over him if his Father had not given it to him.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            sure … but not the issue ….. the reason there is a separation of church and state is they have different spheres of influence ….. church government is separated from the government of men … that is why the church government is tax immune …. one government does not get to tax another government …… and yes God is over ALL governments ….

          • hiernonymous

            So let me get this straight. The example Jesus gave straight up teaches that money is produced by the government; that it is clearly in the government’s domain; and that it is completely appropriate to give it in tribute to the government – and you conclude from this that the church may not be taxed?

            You don’t even understand why churches in the U.S. are exempt from taxation, do you?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            right … nobody was discussing this with you ….. but fine ….. first …. the churches are not “exempt” …. they are “IMMUNE” from taxation …… and if you do not understand the difference …. look it up …… and yes we are to support government WHEN that government acts in alignment with what God laid out for government in Romans 13 ….. and when they violate Romans 13 …… then we have no duty to them and only to God ….. or else we can immediately give the US back to the natives and go back to England and be under the Crown we rebelled against …..

          • hiernonymous

            “right … nobody was discussing this with you ”

            Someday, someone might sit you down and explain the difference between public forums and private messaging.

            “and yes we are to support government WHEN that government acts in alignment with what God laid out for government in Romans 13 ….. and when they violate Romans 13 …… then we have no duty to them and only to God ”

            Romans 13 tells us that governments exist by the will of God, but it does not suggest that the subjects of those governments may apply some sort of religious conformity test to determine whether or not to heed the epistle’s exhortation to obey that government.

            In fact, the ‘render unto Caesar’ passages rather imply the opposite. Consider this – whose head is on the coin Jesus uses as an example? It is Caesar’s. We don’t know which one – Augustus or Tiberius – but either way, the ruler in question was most definitely NOT ruling in accordance with God’s laws. The emperors were considered divinities themselves, for Pete’s sake. If Jesus had intended to imply that one need not submit to the authority nor pay taxes to a government that did not rule by Christian principles, the whole scene with the denarius is hard to understand.

            What’s your take on it? How do you explain the exhortation to render unto Caesar if 1) you believe we were told we did not need to support the government if it is “not in alignment with what God laid out for government in Romans 13, and 2) Imperial Rome was not “in alignment with what God laid out for government?”

            “…or else we can immediately give the US back to the natives and go back to England and be under the Crown we rebelled against ….”

            TJ and the Founders didn’t look to Romans 13 to justify the rebellion, but to Locke’s Two Treatises of Government, in which he argued for the obligation of free men to overthrow governments that were destructive of life, liberty, and property.

            You seem to be implying that Christianity had developed some sort of mechanism analogous to the Chinese “Mandate of Heaven,” but that’s a pretty original take.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            sure … whatever ………..

          • hiernonymous

            So you just make this stuff up as you go along? You can’t explain how you draw your conclusions?

            Seems pretty weak.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            sure … whatever ……..

          • hiernonymous

            But Locke and Romans aren’t saying the same thing. There’s no duty to revolt implied in Romans, nor in the various iterations of “render unto Caesar.”

            I asked you a straightforward question. If you have thought this through, there’s no reason not to answer it. If you haven’t, you should acknowledge that, too.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            sure … again …. whatever …..

          • Silas Jennings

            My hat’s off to you, sir. You managed to shut him down. Almost no one has succeeded at doing so until now.

          • mr goody two shoes

            It’s impossible to separate church from state. The atheists think a christian should stop being a christian Monday through Saturday especialy if there in political office. But a christian is a citizen of boths God’s church and the state all the time on this side of heaven. If there really was seperation of Church and state a christian could break all the state’s laws and they would have to let him or her do it. Instead God tell us to obey the state unless it wants us to disobey God in some way. Then is when we must Obey God rather than men

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i thought i just said that ….. sure ………..

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “The atheists think a christian should stop being a christian”

            No, they don’t. I don’t. If you think that’s what separation of church and state means, you’re wrong.

            “If there really was seperation of Church and state a christian could
            break all the state’s laws and they would have to let him or her do it.”

            If that were the case, the laws of the state might as well not exist, as they would have no effect. The laws of the church would take precedence over them. That is not separation of church and state, that is its opposite – a theocracy.

    • TheKingOfRhye

      I actually agree with SOME of what you said there. In a country (like, say, the USA) which has freedom of religion, the government should cooperate with all faiths and those of none. None of those should be given precedence over any other. You NEED separation of church and state to achieve that.

      “I am for freedom of religion, & against all maneuvres to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another.”

      -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Elbridge Gerry, 26 January 1799

  • mr goody two shoes

    The prayer mentioned is to any God will do ya to be said by Christians in public svhhol settings

  • MCrow

    Looked up the law, and Arkansas specifically defers to the federal ruling prohibiting prayer in school. So at the state and federal level, what they did was illegal. If they want to do so after school, the law allows them equal access to the facilities for purposes of religious use.

  • BobInBpt

    The schools ARE REMAINING NEUTRAL, when they use a generic prayer as sweet as : ““Thank You for the world so sweet/Thank You for the food we eat/Thank You for the birds that sing/Thank You, God, for everything,” That is the prayer that I remember from my grammar school days.