‘Destiny Readings’? ‘Expert Seers’?: Australian Group ‘Christalignment’ Drawing Concerns Over New Age Practices in the Name of God

Photo Credit: Christalignment/Facebook

MELBOURNE — An Australian group that identifies itself as “Christalignment” is drawing concerns over practices that have been deemed New Age and occultic, including its use of “expert seers,” who provide “destiny readings,” dream interpretations and “energy impartation”—all in the name of God and evangelism.

Christalignment is run by Ken and Jen Hodge, who are the parents of Ben Fitzgerald, a listed missionary with Bethel Church of Redding, California. According to the Christalignment website, Jen Hodge is characterized as a “seer [who] specializes in healing from negative energies/cleansing.”

“The Christalignment team, based in Melbourne, Australia, are trained spiritual consultants, gifted in various modalities. We practice a form of supernatural healing that flows from the universal presence of the Christ,” the site reads. “We draw from the same divine energy of the Christ spirit, as ancient followers did and operate only out of the third heaven realm to gain insight and revelation.”

It outlines that its team members are trained in “destiny reading, Presence therapy, trauma recovery, entity cleansing, relationship alignment and physical healing using divine energy,” and also offer dream interpretations and “encounters coming from the third heaven realm.” Other services noted by the group include “prophetic” henna tattoos, deep rest therapy and color therapy, as well as meditation classes, which are held at various times throughout the year.

Christalignment has a booth four days a week at Dandenong Market, and also offers its services at events such as Sexpo, Rainbow Serpent, the Melbourne Queer Expo and Mind, Body, Spirit.

“Our unique destiny cards, which we have developed, are so accurate that even if your life circumstances change dramatically, on your return to do them again years later, you will find the results identical, such is their accuracy,” the group claims. “They are able to give profound insight into relationships, career and spiritual life.”

Some of the cards read “gifts,” “acts of service,” “quality time,” “words of affirmation” and “physical touch,” and include photos of Christ or other drawings. On the back is a saying that addresses struggles or other issues the person has been going through.

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In addition to “destiny cards,” the group also uses Psalm cards, animal cards and color cards for its readings. Each card is stated to have a particular prophetic meaning for the person obtaining a reading.

“Psalm readings are similar to tarot in that cards are counted out according to your birth date date & year. Only three cards are used and these will represent your past, present and future,” the site read—that is, until Christalignment altered the wording within the past month after the matter was reported by Christian blog sites, raising deep concern over what appeared to be a similarity to tarot cards.

Christian News Network used the Wayback Machine to compare the two versions of the web page. Click here to see the original wording and click here to see the current wording.

Facebook post noting “expert seers.” Click to enlarge.

The group claims that it purposefully attends New Age festivals and other events where the lost are present to be an “undercover prophetic evangelism deliverance ministry” with the goal of seeing the unregenerate “saved, healed, and set free.” It denies that it is involved in New Age in any form, but asserts that it is rather seeking to work against the movement by bringing people to Jesus instead of psychics.

“The team is trained not only to be able to release deep encounters with the Spirit of Truth to clients, but to also release words of knowledge and healing. For clients to see Jesus standing before them in an encounter is not uncommon, and many of them get born again,” the Hodges claimed in a recent letter to Bethel’s Kris Vallotton following controversy over the matter.

“The prophetic word given over us four years ago was that we would see hundreds of witches come into the kingdom, thousands of people turn from darkness, and that tarot cards would be disabled,” they wrote. “Praise God this is happening!! As a deliverance ministry, we are able to stop clients ever going to a psychic again and this is our aim.”

Vallotton had previously repudiated the use of “destiny cards,” but soon retracted his words by posting the Hodges’ letter to Facebook, remarking that the couple was being “destroyed by the fake news media.”

While Bethel itself has also officially released a statement advising that it is not “formally affiliated” with Christalignment, and that the only connection is that some members are related to the Hodges, it went on to defend the group as engaging in biblical evangelism and doing its part to reach the lost in difficult places.

“Reaching people where they are with the truth and love of God is our job as believers. Many people will not come to our churches, yet they are in great need of a personal encounter with Jesus. The Hodges feel called to share the Gospel with a people group that most of us would feel unsure of how to approach. We value their efforts to minister to unbelievers in the ways they can more easily receive it and in the places they are going, like New Age festivals,” it wrote.

“This ministry is a way of getting people to stop and engage with fellow humans so that they might encounter the love of the Father and the truth of His Son, Jesus Christ. If one of our sons or daughters was away from the Lord and looking for truth at a festival, we would be praying for them to meet believers like the Hodges who know the love and truth of God,” Bethel continued.

It urged those with concern to go directly to Christalignment themselves to work out any disagreement.

Read the statement in full here.

However, not only have Christalignment’s practices raised concern among Christians who believe that the practices are indeed modeled after the New Age—no matter how much the group denies it—but so did Bethel’s statement in defense of the organization.

“[W]hen Pulpit & Pen broke the story, Jen Hodge pulled two of her videos that were clearly letting others see they were practicing what is recognized as legitimate tarot card readings. When people gave links to Kris Vallotton from the Christalignment website where it was explained how destiny cards are similar and used like tarot cards, Jen Hodge altered her website,” notes Church Watch Central.

“Bethel leaders suggest Christians are narrow-minded if they oppose creative means of evangelism. This, of course, assumes that using destiny cards is no problem,” also writes Holly Pivec of Spirit of Error. “… What practices would Bethel be willing to repudiate? For example, if a group put together a Christian version of a Ouija board—but called it a destiny board and said they were using it through the power of the Holy Spirit so that people could have an encounter with God—how would this be any different? Where would Bethel draw the line and why there?”

“How does Bethel teach its people discernment? What guidelines do they provide? What biblical support for them? Is their flock expected to trust all discernment to Bethel leaders? If not, how are they being equipped to exercise mature discernment?” she asked. “Why not simply deny affiliation with Christalignment and leave it at that? This looks like a defense of the practices of Christalignment.”

Jeremiah 14:14 reads, “Then the Lord said unto me, ‘The prophets prophesy lies in My name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them. They prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.'”

Leviticus 20:23 also states, “And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.”

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  • Reason2012

    “Experts” are surprised by this?

    2 Timothy 4:1-4 “I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”

  • Amos Moses – He>i

    “undercover prophetic evangelism deliverance ministry”

    ….. where is that in scripture ……

    “This ministry is a way of getting people to stop and engage with fellow humans so that they might encounter the love of the Father and the truth of His Son, Jesus Christ. If one of our sons or daughters was away from the Lord and looking for truth at a festival, we would be praying for them to meet believers like the Hodges who know the love and truth of God,” Bethel continued.

    ….. AGAIN ……. where is that in scripture ……

  • Miss Percival

    I’m unclear how they’re any different from anyone else promoting “faith healing”. They prey on sick people, and/or their family and friends, for money. A classic scam.

    • Vince

      No, there is no “scam” in people giving money voluntarily to any association they choose.

      Taxes, on the other hand – which are FORCED upon us to pay for programs that we would never dream of supporting – are a scam.

      Btw, it is the supreme irony that people who hate Christianity claim to find it offensive that preachers “scam” the poor. If you hate Christians so much, you can’t turn around pretend that you care about some Christian person getting scammed.

      • Miss Percival

        What makes you think I hate Christians? Most of my family and a number of my friends are Christian, and I love them very much. The question is not whether they gave their money “voluntarily” but if they received what they were promised for it. If they didn’t, it’s a scam. Taxes are not a scam just because some of your money goes to programs you don’t like. The program exists. You just don’t like paying for it. Don’t like it? Vote for someone else.

  • Elca

    In the time of our ignorance , God simply wink…[ Acts 17:22-31].
    This is the same ignorance many Evangelicals display by their allegiance to the GOP and Conservatism.

    • Amos Moses – He>i

      and to the DNC and liberalism ………….. and LQBTQQIRSTUVWXYZ and libertarianism …….

      • Elca

        …yea, true, but the problem is, you do not see the beam in your eye as you too are hopelessly devoted to the GOP and conservatism hoping and praying that passing laws against abortion and the LGBTQ agenda will solve these issues.
        So your allegiance is to them and not to God.

        • Amos Moses – He>i

          ummmm …. NOPE …. i have no political affiliation …… so WRONG …………

          • Elca

            Your postings contradict your claim.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and which would those be …… specifically …… all my postings are open for inspection ….

          • Elca

            I can see your post are open, but it would be a waste of time But just consider your attack on the DNC and Liberalism on this thread, is all that is necessary to arrive at an accurate conclusion that you are affiliated or adhere to Conservative and Right Wing rhetoric.
            You, like most Evangelicals and Conservatives attack Liberalism as if people don’t have a choice in this America…I am right about you, and you know it.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            again … i am not even registered to vote in any capacity whatsoever …… and my position has to do with being BIBLICAL and not due to any political affiliation ……… so WRONG on your attempt to pigeon hole me and categorize me and to fit me into your little paradigm …. FAIL ………..

          • Elca


    • Vince

      God made you our judge?

      Sorry, not buying it.

    • truthhasfallen

      I agree that many evangelicals blindly follow the ideology of the GOP, but the ignorance in Acts 17 is about ignorance that keeps one lost in sin. The chapter is about the call for the pagan world to repent and trust Christ for their eternal salvation. It has nothing to do with the ignorance of believers when they’re mesmerized by false prophets and teachers.

      Perhaps a better portion of Scripture to associate with such believers might be 2 Timothy 4:3-4: “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.”

      • Elca

        Thanks for your response;
        quote,“…but the ignorance in Acts 17 is about ignorance that keeps one lost in sin. “ Well, do you not agree that blindly following the ideology of the GOP is keeping those people in sin? – the sin of idolatry? These people are doing so because they have equated the GOP to the Party of God and are ” Ignorantly ” and blindly following…that’s SIN.
        ” The chapter is about the call for the pagan world to repent and trust Christ for their eternal salvation.” And I am calling those who ” Blindly and ignorantly follow the GOP as if it is the party of GOD to repent. They are no better than those who worshipped ” the UNKNOWN god”…GOP is an unknown god that many have constructed and are blindly following and hopelessly devoted to its politics and have equated it to the teachings of Jesus Christ. Why do you think Evangelicals are a Pillar in the GOP?

        ” It has nothing to do with the ignorance of believers when they’re mesmerized by false prophets and teachers.” Oh yes it does…those people were worshipping an unknown God that Paul said is the God of the Creation. They were “mesmerized” by His existence but was confused and ignorant of Him and so they considered Him the ” UNKNOWN GOD”. This ignorance led to superstition as noted by Paul. And when Paul declared unto them who this ” Unknown ” God is, some mocked, others believed.
        People who cling to their guns and religion, the GOP and the NRA, needs to be told of their ignorance and superstitious believe that Safety and salvation are found in those entities.
        People in Austrailia are looking to these ” seers” as if they are gods who can ” solve ” their issues of life. That’s idolatry born out of ignorance and blind devotion.
        2 Timothy 4 is one of my favorite passages, for it is very applicable to both scenarios and especially today.

        • truthhasfallen

          I agree when you imply that blindly following the GOP keeps people in idolatry. I also agree that its sin. BUT, it’s sin that leads to loss of rewards, but its not sin that leads to damnation. In Acts, Paul is addressing those who are outside of Christ and are under the condemnation and damnation of God because they haven’t believed or trusted in Christ for salvation.

          Also, no where in Acts 17 does it imply that the Athenians were “mesmerized” by God’s existence. Most of the philosophers of Paul’s day were initiated into the Mystery Religions of the day. The “unknown God” is a reference to the Platonic thought that the ultimate reality is unknowable. 2 Timothy 4 speaks of about “they” who will not endure sound doctrine. Primarily that is those to which the gospel is preached. Secondly, it speaks to those who are believers, but because of sin, turn their spiritual eyes off the Lord and end up in deception. Those who reject Christs salvation will be damned as 2 Peter tells us. Those who are saved, but deceived will loose their rewards – as Paul tells us in 1 Cor 3:12-15.

          We have to draw the line between those who are lost without Christ and those who are saved by grace through faith. Yes, those who are saved can be led away into deception, but that will not destroy their salvation. For we are saved BY GRACE, THROUGH FAITH. It’s faith in Christ alone that saves, not faith PLUS not being deceived.

          • Elca

            “Also, no where in Acts 17 does it imply that the Athenians were “mesmerized” by God’s existence They were , mesmerized ” or intrigued by New ideas and were eager to know…
            quote,(For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)” v21
            This speaks to their curiosity into new doctrine…and an Obsession with New Philosophies… one which Paul Preached, it was new.

            “… found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.”, This implies that they were forever searching and looking for the next new thing and Paul took the opportunity to introduced Jesus and His Resurrection.

            Does it reach the level of Standing in “Awe” of God’s Presence? No ! but their culture was one of an obsession for ” new doctrine” and philosophies, one that Paul presented, which was new to most of them.[ v18-20]
            I think this is why, the Greeks are know for great Philosophers.

  • So according to Christalignment and Bethel (and a church I stopped going to here), the practice of compromising the truth of scripture and the gospel to reach those who would otherwise reject it is acceptable. Pretty much the philosophy of the compromised church that accepts unbiblical practices and hyper-grace doctrines and will converge with the one world religion of the end times.

  • Faithwalker

    The word of God is sufficient all by itself!

  • Lydia Church

    Nothing but occultic sin, an abomination to God.

    And you all know the saying:
    “If it quacks like a duck……” !

  • truthhasfallen

    These people know nothing of the gospel of God, nor the love of God. They’re deceived, being deceived and constantly deceiving. They’re false teachers leading people astray.

    • For whom will stand strong in amidst the wolves to bring the Light Of Christ, Word of God and the Truth of His Word which will set them free?

      • truthhasfallen

        The problem is that they aren’t bringing the “light of Christ, Word of God and the Truth of His Word! Christ is not some universal consciousness as they promote! Nor do they speak from His Word. Their “third heaven revelation” is human reasoning at best and demonic familiar spirits at worst.

        Faith comes by hearing and hearing BY THE (written) WORD OF GOD – Rom 10:17. If you want to speak into an unbeliever’s life, speak God’s Word about their current condition before God (John 3:36). Speak about God providing His Son to rescue them from His wrath (John 3:16). THEN they will understand the love of God.

        These people don’t know God or his love for if they did, they’d tell people the truth, instead the spirit behind them attempts to hide their new-age gospel in Christian clothing.

  • The same thing is practiced at Bethel Church as article states on top of spirit soaking. Church a seriously gone astray and pastors asleep at the helm. People are hungry for the Word of God and sheep are being led astray as sheep to a slaughter. To one whom much is given much shall be accountable !

  • Ian4j

    This ‘christalignment’ is actually deception because it covers itself with so much jargon that it impossible to clearly see the real deal. Jesus did not use subterfuge to reveal Himself He spoke clearly to those He met and they knew by His Power that He is real and that they needed to repent.

  • Why is anyone criticizing these folks. Their believes are every bit as valid as traditional fundamentalists/evangelicals just as they are as valid as all other theocratic beliefs. Not one person can demonstrate, logically, how anyone’s theocratic beliefs are wrong or right. This is because religion is purely subjective. No logic or evidence required. Were logic and evidence required, there would be no religion.

    So, why not just mind our own business/religion.

    • Chet

      We Christians and Jews have the Word of God, Holy Bible, as THE source of all truth and need not a heralded gimmick. This foolishness is demonic in nature and as described herein, has nothing to do in the way of saving lost souls, setting captives (SIN) free, rescuing the perishing nor care for the dying. It does nothing to exalt the Lord Jesus Christ of Calvary, King of kings and Lord of lords. Nor does this nonsense seek to separate the children of God from the children of darkness… Stick with your own Holy Bible and you won’t be led astray by anyone…

      • We Christians and Jews have the Word of God, Holy Bible, as THE source of all truth and need not a heralded gimmick.

        It certainly is the nature of any person of any theistic religion to believe his is the one and only Truth. After all, that is what the vast majority were taught to believe from childhood. And the argument you give would be the same argument of believers in the other religions.

        Other folks edit what they were taught to believe. Arguably (of course), virtually all Christians have edited the Bible as well (in their minds). One of the most deleted verses in Christianity (and in most others) is Luke 6:31: And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.”

        Christians, by and large (especially evangelicals) do not accept that teaching. Interesting that a great many (most?) atheists do accept that. It is the only tenet I try to live by, difficult as it is now and then.

        The only reason that I confront fundamentalist thought is that it is harmful to our nation when it creeps into politics–which it as big time. For example, “Judge” Roy Moore commanded a steady 71% of the white, mail evangelical vote. Fortunately, there were enough Alabamians who had a real moral compass. I think that election, at least in Alabama, demonstrated the depth of the moral deficit of, as well as the depth of hypocrisy in, the evangelicals.

        That is why I continue to speak out for true religious freedom (and freedom from religion) in the U.S.

        • Chet

          Surprised to see an unbeliever quote God’s Word, and correctly even. Yes, we Christians are for sure aware of this verse, and, speaking for myself, only, I do subscribe to this scripture along with all the rest. I do endeavor to treat men as I would like to be treated, ala Golden Rule. This teaching in no wise refutes the Great Commission of Mark 16 and Matthew 28, however. Now that I look back over my life and recall the sinner man I once was, and purposely so, I’m very thankful that somebody took the time to try and reach me with the gospel. Even though, for quite some time I was disinterested, preferring to take my chances that, aw, death is a long time off yet, eat, drink and be merry, enjoy the ladies and live it up, man. Be just like all the other guys… Sharing God’s good news gospel today with a lost person is doing unto them as I would now have them do unto me. Thankfully so..

          Regarding the Alabama vote, we’ll never know the truth of something that was supposed to have happened 40 years ago. Interestingly enough, the accusers remained silent till the Senate race. Then, once over, not another peep is heard from them. Same thing happened to Mr Herman Cain… God Almighty knows the truth for sure as “The eyes of the Lord are in every place, beholding the evil and the good” Proverbs 15:3, Holy Bible…

          • Surprised to see an unbeliever quote God’s Word,

            Ironically, I was raised to be a fundamentalist like you. Fortunately, my first doubt came as a result of reading the Bible. My public high school Bible teacher could not answer my question of concern, so I continued to read and believe. In high school, other religions were not discussed and evolution was never mentioned even in biology or world history classes).

            After high school there came two other events, the last of which caused me to realize that in order to effectively argue against evolution and other religions with intellectual honesty, I had to study those subjects objectively.

            To that end, I put my beliefs in abeyance and enrolled in college where I studied philosophy, world religions and evolutionary science – paleoanthropology and paleontology. When I entered college, I vowed that I would educate myself in those matters that I knew so little about and follow the arguments to their logical conclusion.

            Thus came my journey from de facto fundamentalism to de facto atheism, inspired mostly by learning the unquestionable logic of the scientific method and the correct path of objectivity.

            A more detailed account may be found by googling THE RENAISSANCE OF MY LIFE: A Journey From Exclusive Faith to Enlightened Inclusiveness.
            As far as Roy Moore goes, I’m not surprised you gave him a pass as I suspect you gave Trump and all other conservatives so accused. Nor is it surprising that virtually no one among Moore and Trump supporters bothered to vet Moore’s and Trump’s past record of lying–Trump pathologically so. And that is one of the cardinal sins. So, Christian supporters of Trump definitely are pickers, choosers, and very selective judges of Biblical mandates and human integrity.

          • Chet

            The men you condemn are indeed sinners, just like me and just like you. And so are their accusers , the likes of which in the judge’s instance all have now conveniently gone back into the walls from whence the came. Just a those who did-in Mr Cain. Never to be heard from again… Strange, no… I try to keep myself in the narrow way and tend to allow the Almighty to deal with others. I am accountable for my own actions, not that of someone else. When we pick leaders we have the choice of sinner number one or sinner number two. No escaping such.

            Regarding your personal experience as related herein, you allowed educated fools to alter your own beliefs to your own hurt. “The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God”… You can still find forgiveness in repentance and faith in the Christ of Calvary and His finished work on your behalf, personally… Choose wisely, Sir…

          • The men you condemn are indeed sinners, just like me and just like you.

            That is the logical fallacy of false equivalence. I shouldn’t have to explain that. If you want to submit logical arguments or even convincing ones, you might want to visit sites on logical fallacies.

            I value honor and intellectual and honesty. Trump values none of that. It is clear that the Republican Party and especially Trump has harnessed the emotional motivation of millions of fundamentalists, white nationalists and white supremacists. No one should want to be in that camp.

            So, under no circumstances would I turn over my mind to Irrational animosities and Blind faith, and a suspend of critical thought That is not the path for me.

          • Chet

            I submitted truth as offered in God’s Word. You care not for such, thus, you attempt to philosophize and rationalize with the thoughts and effects of mere men, sinners each and every one. The Holy Bible is TRUTH and there is none other under the Sun like unto it.

            Thankfully, Trump is not accountable to you beyond his presidential performance. And those of us who support and pray for his safety and success in MAGA are in no wise accountable unto you or anyone else. And we happen to think he is doing a darn good job despite the onslaught of his haters in concert with those bent on his ouster and utter destruction… It’s very clear the modern democrat party is the party of resist and hate with no regard for marriage (as God Almighty defined it to be so) and the lives of the unwanted unborn yet in their momma’s womb awaiting God Almighty’s determined time of birth…
            Now, we know for sure where we respectively come from… Thanks for the opportunity to share.

          • Well, there are two kinds of truths, subjective and objective.

            Objective truths are facts that have been independently verified. That we exist is an objective truth (although philosophically questionable). Mathematics/physics is an objective truth. Stellar evolution is an objective truth. Anything that can be independently verified is an objective truth.

            Subjective truths are IDEAS that cannot be independently verified such as beliefs in the supernatural.

            A person, for example, can claim that God literally came to him and told him to run for president of the US. and said that He wants abortion for any reason to end. There is no way his claim, that God, Himself, talked to him, can be independently verified.

            Yet fundamentalists will vote for him even if he has a history of cheating thousands of people out of their money, has scammed students out of their tuition, discriminated against blacks in housing, takes large amounts of money from governments run by dictators and sexually attacked women. They will still love him and say that “he is doing a darn good job.”

            Fortunately, Muller is closing in on Trump, et al. Perhaps Muller can snatch our democratic republic out of the jaws of fundamentalism and oligarchy.

            I have to ask one last question. Do you favor having an unfettered free market in a theocratic oligarchy where there is no constitution but the Bible (ignoring, of course, all those silly admonitions in the Gospels about usury and helping the poor)?

          • Chet

            And what will President Trump’s haters resort to next should he be not be charged with a crime? Hmmm… Will they move on towards his family, his very attractive daughter or wife, perhaps, or maybe his young son. Oh, there’s just so much to throw trash at, no.
            Then again, there’s his partner, VP Pence, a strong uncompromising Christian, American patriot, successful politician, and unapologetic conservative with some strange old fashioned separated ways. Man oh man, does he make for one real juicy target… Oh yeah, they’ve already done so haven’t they – haters…

            Respectfully, if you would be concerned about your own relationship with the God of all flesh (the one with whom we all have to do) as opposed to thinking upon the sins of others and the supposed takeover of American government by those tormenting Christians and Jews, you’d probably be a much happier man. And should you use your God-given intelligence to consider your own eternity, and rather chance not that God is unreal and return to the Lord Jesus Christ of Calvary, just as Israel of old, you can rejoin the family of God. You will more than prove yourself to be one smart man, yea, rather, a blood bought redeemed man on his way to Heaven at the end of this short journey on Earth. ” The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” II Peter 3:9, Holy Bible. Thanks for the opportunity to share God’s good news gospel … And God bless you, Sir.

          • So, like trump, you’re not a fan of law, the Constitution, or honesty? The truth is what Trump says it is? You are a fan of obstructing justice and approving of Putin, his cyber attack on the U.S. and his expansionism? You like strong, heavy handed leaders who care or know little about government and hate the idea of equal rights?

            Not surprising. The iron walls of fundamentalism cannot receive even a scratch from the strongest cannonballs of logic, reason, and irony.

          • Chet

            In that you deferred to respond to my previous point(s) I think we’re done here, Sir. God bless and have a good day now…

          • In the first place, you are quite vague about what is not appropriate about the mainstream media criticisms of Trump and company, or exactly what “trash” is being thrown in at Trump and family (I assume you are speaking of Trump Junior and his son-in-law, Kushner (especially Kushner). So, is your problem with the Muller investigation?

            Are you disagreeing with what has already been verified concerning Kushner lies? Trump’s daily lies? Is it news of Trump’s first ordering Don McGahn to fire Muller? How about the news that Ivanka Trump is having her clothing line made in China and Hong Kong while Donald trumpets his promise he will put America first in manufacturing as part of his mantra to “make America great again?”

            So, exactly what is your problem? Do you believe Trump over all others? Do you believe everyone is out to get him?

            Give me your complaint and we can debate it. How can I interpret your “trash” comment?

            Respectfully: My “relationship with God?” I think I’ve made it known to you that I am a de facto atheist. There has to be a god with which to have a relationship, otherwise it would be a relationship with an imaginary friend, which I believe all gods to be.

            Fundamentalists simply cannot wrap their heads around the idea that anyone can honestly disbelieve that their god exists. But here is a clue: Do you deny that the Hindu gods exist even tough hundreds of millions do believe in them? Of course you are most likely to deny it. If so, can you not see the irony here?

            And should you use your God-given intelligence to consider your own eternity, and rather chance not that God is unreal . . .

            Sorry my friend, but this argument is the classic Pascal’s Wager. It is easily refuted simply by asking, which god? This goes back to my first point that hundreds of millions of people believe in other gods.

            I know, however, that you mean the one in which YOU belive. But, for example, if the Zoroastrians or the Hindu or any number of other sects and religions are right, then I’m still an infidel.

            I certainly am fine with your believing whatever you want to belief, but if there is a truly GOOD god, then It certainly would not condemn me for withholding my belief until the evidence is clear and unambiguous. And It would not condemn Billions of others for having been taught to believe differently.

            Now, have I answered clearly enough, or have you more questions or perhaps details to explain your “trash” argument? Have I missed something?

          • Chet

            You, Sir, have the last word…

        • redroksaz

          In response to your statement that “Christians, by and large do not accept that teaching” of Luke 6:31…..

          The “Giving USA Special Report on Giving”, released on October 24, 2017, was researched and written by the Lake Institute on Faith & Giving at the Indiana University Lilly Family School of Philanthropy with support from the Giving USA Foundation™.

          They Discovered:
          People who are religiously affiliated are more likely to make a charitable donation of any kind, whether to a religious congregation or to another type of charitable organization. Sixty-two percent of religious households give to charity of any kind, compared with 46 percent of households with no religious affiliation.

          The report also stated that a household’s affiliation with a faith tradition and its frequency of attendance at religious services play important roles in their charitable giving to religious institutions and other types of charitable organizations.

          • Hi redroksaz. I appreciate your input.

            Giving money does not demonstrate universal empathy, which is what that verse means. It would require an overall understanding and acceptance of other cultures and other religions.

            Universal empathy would require the understanding that Christianity/denomination is not the ONLY way to live a life that a good god would accept.

            It would require that Christians understand that the vast majority of believers of any religion believe it because that is what they were taught to belive from childhood, and that they believe it every bit as fervently as do Christians believe theirs. No good god would send any soul to eternal torture for the crime of believing the religion that they were taught to belive from childhood.

            It would require the understanding that only a small fraction of Muslims are so deeply fundamentalist that they follow the teachings and Draconian laws of their god (same as the OT god of Christians and Jews) far more than Christians or Jews.

            It would require that anyone of any religion be embraced and not looked down upon. Were Christians not selective in their empathy and so judgmental of others, you would not have groups like the Satanic Temple, for example, because their existence was a reaction to Christian intolerance of the way others live their lives.

            It would require that Christians cease to claim they are being attacked if the government does not allow them to dictate how others live. It would require that Christians cease their attempts to deny some people the right to seek happiness through same-gender marriage even though it is against Christian belief.

            It would require, too, that Christians honor the Bill of Rights in the Constitution, especially the 1st Amendment. It is a secular document and there are millions of American who are secularists and other religions having all the rights that Christians have.

            I’m sure you get the gist of what I’m saying. I am not opposed to religion in general. I honor our first right in the Constitution–the right to govern one’s on life according to the dictates of his conscience.

            I am only opposed to using religion to hinder or harm others who do not believe in Christianity.

          • redroksaz

            (“Giving money does not demonstrate universal empathy, which is what that verse means.”)

            However, Jesus is connecting His words to giving…His message on this subject ends with His promise, “Give, and it shall be given back to you, good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over…” (Luke 6:38)

            Empathy is demonstrated in the fact that some of the largest and most benevolent charities that provide help and assistance in the midst of human tragedy are Christian organizations: Samaritan’s Purse, Compassion International, Operation Blessing, Lutheran World Relief, Children’s Hunger Fund, Food for the Poor, etc.

            Moral reasoning, accessible by all, is the foundation of our political system, and liberty is its aim. We are all created equal, as defined by our natural rights; thus, no one has rights superior of those of anyone else. The First Amendment of the Bill of Rights guarantees freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. This same amendment includes free speech and free press…if we rewrite the meaning applied to religion, we must also rewrite freedom of speech and freedom of the press as well.

            If you believe the Constitution gives us the right to live according to the dictates of our conscience, then those who believe it is morally wrong to bake a cake for a gay wedding for example, should not be forced to do so, or be taken to court. They were simply living out the dictates of their conscience. But they were forced to go out of business…this was morally wrong and an affront to the liberty the Constitution guarantees us.

            Satanism and the worship of demons began long before the roots of Christianity were ever planted. The worship of demons and the occult can be found in the magic arts of the Egyptians and the Mysteries of the ages.

  • Chet

    Flee from this devilish hogwash. Stick to your own Holy Bible and be led by the indwelling Holy Spirit. That is, if you are born-again/saved…

  • Robin Egg

    Bethel church is the high seat of harlotry.

  • angelpat2812

    For once in my life as a Christian, I wish God’s people would not be ignorant to satan’s devices! He’s gotten more crafty with his Schemes and Devices. These people are practicing witchcraft! And God’s people have gotten so dumbed down that they don’t know the difference. Ok people, we are to be the watchers over our own Souls. Let no man hinder you or deceive you. Don’t take my word it. Stay before the Lord (Jesus) in prayer. For he will shine light on darkness. He Loves his children and he won’t let us be deceived. Love you guys with the love of Christ.