False Teacher Rob Bell Claims in New Documentary ‘The Heretic’: ‘Jesus Would Be Mortified Someone Started a Religion in His Name’

A new documentary called “The Heretic,” which centers on false teacher Rob Bell, is set to be released on March 1, and features a number of statements that are already raising concern, such as, “The Bible has caused so much damage” and “Jesus would be absolutely mortified that someone started a religion in His name.”

Bell explained in a Facebook post on Feb. 1 that he had been approached by filmmaker Andrew Morgan about creating a film surrounding his work and controversial views, which many decry as being apostate and heretical.

“A few years ago, the filmmaker Andrew Morgan approached Kristen and I about making a documentary film about my work. We have great respect for Andrew, so we said yes, and he began filming tours and RobCasts and events and interviews,” he outlined. “I can’t imagine just how much footage he captured. The result is a new film that he is preparing to release. It’s called ‘The Heretic.'”

Noting that Bell has “raised a lot of eyebrows” among Christians, the production features clips from both those opposed to Bell and those in favor of him, from Franklin Graham, who forthrightly called Bell a “heretic,” to Carlton Pearson, who praised the former “pastor” of Mars Hill in Michigan as being a “paradigm shifter.”

Pearson, a former pastor himself, lost his congregation nearly two decades ago after he came out with assertions that “Hell will not last for eternity.” While his views may not be exactly the same as Pearson’s, Bell’s bestselling book “Love Wins” claimed that the majority of Christian doctrine on Hell is “misguided and toxic.”

“Women’s rights, LGBT, minorities, love of our Muslim neighbors—if those aren’t all basics, we’re done,” Bell states in an interview featured in the documentary.

“The Bible has caused so much damage,” he also asserts. “In many ways, it’s often been an agent of dragging everything backwards.”

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Bell additionally claims in “The Heretic” that Christianity is the opposite of everything that Jesus stood for, and alleges that Christ wouldn’t even have wanted religion to bear His name.

“[I]f you think about the religion that’s arisen in Jesus’ name, it is anti what Jesus was talking about,” he opines.

“What kept happening is when I kept going into the Jesus teachings, it took me beyond a religion to, ‘What does it mean to be human?’ And I actually think that Jesus would be absolutely mortified that somebody started a religion in His name.”

As of press time, the YouTube video of the trailer had generated over 42,000 views and Bell’s Facebook post had amassed 414,000 views. While some expressed excitement about the documentary and praised Bell as being “far ahead of evangelicals” spiritually, others reiterated that Bell is dangerously leading many astray with his teachings.

“Rob has no power to widen the path the Lord has made narrow,” one commenter wrote. “If you choose Hell, you literally will have to walk over Jesus’ body. If that happens, it is then you will see the error of your way and unbelief, but it will be too late. … The narrow gate by way of the narrow path that leads to life eternal but few will find. This is because they love their sin and do not accept sound doctrine, but instead heap upon themselves teachers who tickle their itching ears. For no man has the power to widen the path the Lord has made narrow.”

“Rob Bell tries so hard to make Christianity fit into a societal bubble, when he should be doing the opposite. It isn’t societal trends that determine what Christianity should be; it is God’s word. We shouldn’t be changing Christianity; Christianity should be changing us,” another stated. “Rob Bell gives pleasant answers, but runs away from the truth that so many need and desire. It’s truly sad, as I was a fan of his older material. Praying for you, Rob.”

2 Peter 2:1-3 warns, “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you, whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.”

2 Timothy 4:1-4 also exhorts, “I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears, and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”

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  • Amos Moses – He>i

    sure He would …. because Christ already did that ……. and many will come in His name saying Christ is Christ ……. and deceive many …. like you do ROB BELL and your hell denying false gospel ……..

  • Mr. Stache

    I’m usually very hesitant to tag someone a heretic, but I do think Bell qualifies. Of course, he’s not saying anything different from the typical left-wing pastor in America. When you bash Christianity with the same zeal that the atheists bash, I’d say you’re more of an atheist than a Christian.

    • I’m grateful for “heretics”, as their theology is almost invariably more interesting to me than so-called “orthodoxy”. I used to genuinely believe in Christianity, but no longer. But as closely as I formerly identified with the religion, I have retained quite an interest in the development of “heresies” and their impact on theology in general. I am not very familiar with Rob Bell but I have listened to his teachings, and he seems inoffensive to me, but then again, his heterodoxy is of a kind which apparently is intolerable to many Christians of the traditional stripe.

      • LynnRH

        God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He doesn’t change because society does. He is God and people are NOT. I’ll put you on my prayer list too.

        • You can if you want, but that’s a very condescending statement to make. If your God is that powerful, why not just pray for me and NOT tell me, as if it is some kind of religious threat or put-down? I may very well be mistaken, and I acknowledge that. I happen to think that “In the Beginning, man made God” as someone else so aptly put it. But I’m open to evidence to the contrary, and I think that if a God truly did (does?) exist, he (she? it?) would be completely unlike all of the religions we have so far developed, including Christianity. But that’s just me.

          • LynnRH

            I apologize if I sounded like I was putting you down by saying i’d put you on my prayer list. I didn’t mean it as a put down. I have told many people in my life I will add them to my prayer list and I didn’t mean it as a put down. God says we are to pray for each other. I have many friends, family members, and acquaintances that have this issue or that issue going on in their lives and I tell them I will be praying for them. I think sometimes it is difficult to determine someone’s attitude when you are communicating online rather than in person. I apologize again. I am a true Christian and I don’t want to sound like i’m not. I know there are some that think I am all about hate…….but I don’t mean to sound like I hate just because I stand with God’s Truth. 🙂

          • Thank you, I appreciate that. Some Christians DO mean it as a put-down. It’s almost like they’re saying, “I’ll ask God to smack you down, heathen.”

          • LynnRH

            No…..I am a compassionate person and I would never enjoy seeing someone hurt. Compassion is also one of God’s attributes. He created man in HIs own image which includes compassion. Of course because of Satan and evil in the world every since Adam and Eve there are many people that hate and do not have compassion.

  • akagaga

    Not only is he a heretic, he is incredibly arrogant. Does he really think he’s glorifying Jesus by embracing the name of heretic?

  • Robin Egg

    He’s got it all….heretic, false teacher, false prophet, antichrist spirit…….Wow.

    • LynnRH

      So true! Unfortunately there is getting to be many, many of others just like him. Satan and his angels are running rampant in these last days.

      • Perhaps there is no Satan, just people committing the unpardonable sin of thinking for themselves concerning their religion?

        • LynnRH

          God says there is a Satan. I only listen to what God says. He is the Creator.

          • Rather, you read what humans wrote in a book, while claiming that God spoke to them, and that God told them about himself and about Satan, and other things too. The Bible was written by humans, even if Christians believe they were divinely inspired and wrote without error. OK, fine, but I think the actual evidence does not support that idea, but in fact contradicts it. However, I am not here to argue you out of your religious faith, if that makes you happy and gives you comfort.

          • LynnRH

            Well thank you for not being here to argue with me out of my religious faith cause it does make my happy and gives me comfort. You wouldn’t have had any luck with that anyway. LOL. And yes, we true Christians do believe the Holy Bible was written by men inspired by God. God is all powerful enough to have been able to inspire mere humans to write the Holy Bible. I’m sure God was also able to prevent someone from writing untruths if He so desired. Why not? Why couldn’t the Lord God Almighty and Creator of everything be able to inspire mere humans what to write and what NOT to write? Sometimes it takes some people a whole lifetime before they are able to see God’s mighty power and awesomeness.

          • I can understand that. A cautionary tale, if I may, about me would tell you that once I was absolutely certain of Christianity and my own salvation. Now I have been told at various times in my life I was never a true Christian and all that. Who knows? Maybe they are right, but I doubt it. Heh heh. Sorry, I had to say that. I am dedicated, unrepentant doubter I guess.

            The problem for me is not that I cannot believe God is all-powerful and could easily produce an inerrant Bible if he wanted to. The problem for me is that the evidence I have found so far calls that into serious question. So, with that said, I do have a serious question, which is not to mock you or anything like that.

            If you were wrong (about God, the Bible, Christianity, or whatever, take your pick), would you want to know?

          • LynnRH

            Nope. I like my life as it is. I love following God’s laws. I’m human and I do fail Him many times. Not on purpose anymore but I do still fail Him. Thankfully Jesus only had to die that cruel death one time and one time only to cover may many, many, many sins in the past, currently, and in the future. I can’t think of a thing in my life that I would like to be able to do if only God wasn’t real.

            I haven’t ever seen any evidence that makes me doubt God is real and His Holy Bible is Truth. And I don’t have to have proof. He says to believe by faith. So I believe by faith and because I do He has given me the Holy Spirit that lives in me and I truly feel His presence with me.

          • I can understand that. Unfortunately, I’m pretty convinced that the Christian God is not real, and Jesus may have been a real man (or not, but most likely he probably was), but was not divine, and has been dead for around 2,000 years, promising a Second Coming (in the lifetime of those then that were hearing him, if you take the Gospels at their word) which of course failed to materialize. I do not doubt that Christians are probably happier overall than we skeptics are, as they believe in an all-powerful deity who watches over them with benevolent care, and have something to look forward to after this life. For me, I find the less happy alternative to nihilism to be more intellectually compelling, though altogether bleak and showing life to be basically meaningless in any ultimate sense. It would be nice to be religious instead of this, but I cannot make my brain believe and accept what I find to be too incredible for belief and acceptance. So that is what it is, I guess.

          • LynnRH

            I’m so sorry you feel that way. Even if there wasn’t a Jehovah God I would still rather believe than not believe because it does give life more meaning and there is also something to look forward to after death. I look forward to not only living in Heaven with Jesus but also with all my loved ones (that are saved) that have gone on before me and will after me. And if there isn’t a Jehovah God and then we die we aren’t going to know anything anyway, are we? So what has a person got to lose by believing during his life on this earth?

          • You’re right, of course, but you can’t choose to believe something you find to be unbelievable. For example, can you choose to believe in the Islamic Allah? How about the Hindu deities? Could you choose to believe that Jesus was just an appearance of the divine, and not actually a divine incarnation (the famous heresy of Docetism)? I suspect not. I am sure that your beliefs give you comfort, just as mine once did, but now they are impossible to maintain. Sad, but it is what it is.

          • Richard DenBleyker

            i’m with you Byroniac, i would definitely want to know if the path i am taking leads to eternal bliss or damnation. eternity is a long, long time and there are no do-overs. fortunately, we are able to determine if there is a god and/or which philosophy/religion is true. it is called prophesy. only the Bible is chock full of predictions (prophecies) that were made hundreds of years in advance and in such detail that it could only be from not only a god, but THE GOD. There is no other “religious” book that compares. do your research. i’m praying for you, too.

          • So far, not impressed with Biblical prophecy at all, sorry. Take the book of Daniel, for example. The Bible “prophecies” the “future events” with 100% accuracy, up to a certain range of years, and then gets 0% accuracy after that, telling us when it was actually written with fair precision, as opposed to when it purports to be written. I will point you to a blog post (not mine, unfortunately; I cannot claim it) about the book of Daniel. There are others too, which I forgot all the details, but I think there was supposedly a prophecy about Tyre being permanently destroyed, which has never happened—so of course, it must have a still future fulfillment, right? After all, what’s a few millennia for a promise between a God and his religious follower, right? But I digress. If you do a search for “Daniel” and “Following the White Rabbit” you will find the blog post of which I speak, but there are others on Daniel as well. Hypothetically, you’re right about prophecy inspiring faith and trust and all that. But really, if prophecy isn’t as convincing as you think it is (it isn’t), then you have to find other means to defend even the idea of “eternity” in a context of personal consciousness. I hope it is true, just not the Christian version, or any religious version I know about so far.

  • Oscar

    I get his point, but he went WAY overboard in the claim.

  • April J

    So YouTube comments now qualify as quotable material for “news articles” on this site. Hacks.

    • The General

      If you don’t like the site, go elsewhere. Read blogs that confirm your own biases.

  • Lydia Church

    Uh, Jesus already started a religion in His Name! So that would be a loud: YES! It’s called CHRISTIANITY, look into it Rob!
    And a loud: NO! He would not be mortified, since that would be a self contradiction.
    But Rob Bell is one of the biggest heretics around now, right up there with rick warren, brian mclaren, beth moore, and pope francis, and a host of others!
    DO NOT follow their false gospels!!!
    The Bible is God’s Word and it is Truth!

    • Marita Schafer

      Pretty sure Jesus never used the word “Christian.” He was a Jew.

      • LynnRH

        Christian: a believer in Jesus Christ and His teachings. Even a jewish person can be a Christian.

  • Terri Horn

    Wonder what he thinks when he us condemned by God. If he truly believes in God he must think God is weak and helpless to have his message sabotaged by his creation. This man is doing the work of his master Satan. For those not aware some atheists are pastors of Christian churches!.It is just a job to them. Saw an interview!! What is worse is that the congregations know!!!!! They do not care!!!!That is why we must be careful and choose the correct church. One who goes by the Bible as well as the words of Jesusnand the apostles even if not socially popular must like Jesus. He did not go by what was socially acceptable if against the words of God and ultimately died because he refused to parrot the religious leaders corrupting the word if his father and now the latest!!!!!!!this outright rank apostasy!!!!!oh well Christ said this had to happen as well as AC unveiled and once this happens any day Christ will call us bone.!!!!come quickly Lord Jesus!!!!!I want to go home and live with you for eternity!!!!! I love you, thanks for dying for your followers so we could be with you forevermore. I will never forget your sacrifice and if needed my life is yours to be used as you need it.

    • LynnRH

      You took the words right out of my mouth. Lol

  • Debra Griffith

    Wow!! With “Christians” like this, who needs the enemy? Talk about selling your soul to the devil. Sure hope he enjoys his 10 min of fame.

    • Thekla

      Lol his fame has gone on much longer than that so far.
      He has also copped loads of loathing from Christians – seems to be able to take it without flaking. He won’t be going away!

  • KP

    They are creating a religion in their own image.

    2 Timothy 3 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

    5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

    6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

  • KP

    They are community organizing the church thru Purpose Driven, New Age teachings. Atheist Peter Drucker was Rick Warren’s mentor. Warren prayed to the false muslim jesus ‘isa’ at obama’s first inauguration. Drucker’s goal was to neutralize the church and turn it into a community center. Bell is aligned with the New Age Queen oprah. They have brought the hindu reincarnation preparation ritual called yoga into the church. This ritual yokes the person with the serpent power which is satan. Most people are reading ‘jesus calling’ daily instead of their Bible. The author admitted to channeling this ‘jesus’ after the fashion of the unkown channelers who wrote ‘god calling’ which the New Agers knew was a New Age book and know that ‘jesus calling’ is New Age also. Bell is also aligned with heretic McLaren who worships the ‘earth’. They are ultimately aligned with the destroyer George Soros thru ‘Rev’ Jim Wallis and Sojourners which is a communist front group.

    • ♥LadyInChrist♥InGodITrust♥

      I agree with what you have written. I’ve heard a lot of negative on the “Purpose Driven” Rick Warrens, false teachings. I tried to read both of his books Purpose Driven Life and Church.I couldn’t even get half way through when I tossed the books. New age teaching will not lead anyone to God.It leads people away from the truth. Very sad people have been deceived through his teachings.

  • Shirley Nichol

    How dare he speaks on behalf of Jesus Christ. Jesus would be “mortified” to see a false prophet like Rob Bell leading thousands astray from the TRUTH.

  • Amos Moses – He>i

    Hey Rob …..

    2Chr 7:14 If my people, which are CALLED BY MY NAME, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

    Isa 43:7 Even every one that is CALLED BY MY NAME: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

    Dan 9:19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people CALLED BY MY NAME.

    Amos 9:12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are CALLED BY MY NAME, saith the LORD that doeth this.

    ummmmmm ……. DUHHHHHHHHHHH! ………………….

    • Michael Ferguson

      I’d be a little more hesitant before you start making fun of other Christians Amos who disagree with you. Your argument above doesn’t even remotely prove your point that God’s people are called by a specific name. For example, the people you reference in 2 Chronicles 7 were not Christians but Jews- the verse itself has no application to any Christian these days despite what some people claim. It was a promise exclusively for them in that age and within the context of their particular nation state. Yes, all those trusting in the Lord God Almighty and His Son the Messiah are His of course, but no specific name was universally used by any of God’s people (in all ages).
      Have you never thought about the consequences of people using a formal name to describe God’s people? All the adverse affects of being called Baptist or Reformed or Pentecostal? Such names are sectarian and only serve to divide God’s people and drive them to compete one with another. God does not and has never authorized anyone to label His people with any name, including His Son.
      I am no fan of Rob Bell, but I understand what he is saying and I agree with him on this point. I’m mortified too that any man “uses” Jesus’ name to start a religion of one form or another. Can you see his point? Jesus never told anyone to do such a thing- he merely called a few people unto Himself who would become a spiritual family of living stones. Whether one was a Jew in the Old Testament (awaiting the coming Messiah), a disciple during Jesus’ earthly life (prior to them being labeled “Christians”- it was not a name they chose for themselves) any more than the title “The Way” was for those who came around after Jesus’ crucifixion.
      It’s this simple. If an individual is truly serving God than that person is known by God as one called “By His name” regardless of when that person lived or died. Try to think of it this way:
      When most people, they usually end their prayers with something like “in Jesus’ name.” Now I’m all for honoring God in such a manner but is the prayer any less adequate or powerful without ending it in that matter? Does God even hear or recognize our prayers if we don’t end them in such a way?
      It is the nature of something that constitutes what it actually is. God’s people are those who have been born again spiritually into a relationship with Him, they have been made new creatures, therefore they speak and live a certain way because of who they are. This is what constitutes real Christianity- not those who merely profess His name (not His real name by the way but the name we use- JESUS) or those who pick a formal name that describes themselves and what they do.
      Now if you still disagree, would you please tell us EXACTLY what the name we are called by actually is. (The name every believer in every age always uses). You see Amos, there is no such name. It is merely because of our faith and our affiliation spiritually with Him that we are “called by His name.” It is a reference He directs toward us, not the other way around.

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        Rob Bell denies the existense of Hell and pretty much a universalist ….. outside of orthodoxy makes one specifically NOT christian ……. so false on that charge …… and while i may agree with some of what you wrote …. the entire bible is about one God and only one God and He does not change and has never changed ever ……. and His name is Christ Jesus ……………. here is your problem ……. the center of history is the Cross ….. and those in the past before it looked forward to it ….. and those after it now look back on it ……… but ALL are saved by grace and His name and His name ALONE …… and again ….. that name is Christ Jesus ……. even when it was not known or only known as the Messiah …………..

        • Michael Ferguson

          Thanks for your response but no I am not wrong about his statement. It’s a very valid expression. Jesus did not come to start a religion in His own name or have men do that for Him. Jesus is appalled- just like the apostle John was when he saw the beast in Revelation chapter 17. This is not merely a picture of the Catholic Church but of an amalgamation of various apostate worldly religions and “Christian” sects that exist today. God will destroy all of it and them- those who refuse to leave her (Revelation 18:4)
          I understand Rob has abandoned the faith once delivered and I do not and am not supporting him. He is a heretic. That said, he has a point in the statement he said and I agree with him. Try not to confuse my message herein with an endorsement of Rob Bell. I warn people of him too, but also warn of what God promises to do- destroy ALL institutional and earthly religion men have made despite those who claim “it’s in His name”

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Jesus did not come to start a religion in His own name or have men do that for Him.”

            11:22 Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch.
            11:23 Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord.
            11:24 For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.
            11:25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul:
            11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

            God is sovereign over all things ….. everything ….. and if God did not want his people to be called christians then this passage in Acts would never have been written as well as ……..

            Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

            1Pet 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

            and we would not called christians today ….. so either God is sovereign over all things in His creation and Rob Bell is full of wild blueberry muffins …… or He is not really God …………..

          • Chet

            1000 thumbs up!

          • Amos Moses – He>i


      • Chet

        They think they shall be heard by their much speaking…

  • Pete Leonard

    This proves that we are living in the Last Days, because the Bible teaches us that in the last Days men shall have a form of Godliness but deny the power there of. From such turn away. Most Pastors, I cant call them Preachers, they don’t teach what the Bible tells us and how powerful God’s word is. If Jesus Christ came back to the Churches of today, Preaching his Word, most Church members would walk out and the Religious Elite would literally crucify him again. Pastors try to please man and not God so that they will not offend any of their members. This is why most Churches are failing today because they don’t have God’s blessings.

  • Matt Evans

    Rob Bell is AMAZING and insightful. He simply teaches the teaching of Jesus without the trappings of human manipulation over two thousand years. He respects the wisdom and the historical significance in the Bible. He puts things into perspective and gives context to all of the stories of the Bible. Joy, peace, love, death, resurrection and life. Don’t be closed minded to GOD who is and is in everything. His teachings are simple….. TOV. Don’t be a hypocrite by decrying someone who has no agenda but to teach all of us what has already been taught by Jesus. We are all loved and we are all responsible for our own happiness and your peace. Listen to the Robcast and know for yourself.

    • ?, you should know that Jesus had blue eyes!

  • I’m not sure exactly what makes Bell a “false teacher.” He may not be teaching as popular doctrine would have him teach, but he is still a teacher. And I certainly agree with some of his statements. The following is an objective fact. But, then, religion is, in my mind, the most divisive and logically inconsistent concept of humankind–the Abrahamic religions in particular.

    “The Bible has caused so much damage”

    I agree with that. And it is still doing so. In the U.S., the fundamentalist radicals of Christianity are forever trying to push for religiously based laws on other groups who do not abide by their biblical views–attempting to micromanage the lives of others on many levels–all the while demanding that the government to stop micromanaging theirs by not allowing them to inculcate children in public schools and bar Muslims form having the same rights as they.

    Of course, the Quran is doing much worse on one level in some parts of the world. The Radical Islam today is where Christianity used to be before the enlightenment and for a long time thereafter. The inquisitions (auto-da-fés in particular) and the castrato are prime examples of historical Christianity.

    His teaching that Hell is not forever for anyone is certainly more indicative of a benevolent god than is Hell for eternity. It seems reasonable to me that a god who “loves all the world” would not have created evil or Hell in the first place.

    And, both Christianity and Islam have their moderates and liberals who agree with each other on a few issues, such as being kind, desiring world peace and being socially, if not religiously, inclusive. Moderates and liberals are, indeed more giving, loving and tolerant (although to many [most?] fundamentalists, tolerance isn’t a family value).

    “Women’s rights, LGBT, minorities, love of our Muslim neighbors—if those aren’t all basics, we’re done,”

    Seems to me that Rob is placing emphasis on the very biblical tenet that most Christians and non Christians tend to ignore:

    “And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.” Luke 6:31, KJV.

    • Chet

      Still in the anti God anti Christ fight, eh… You’ll note, to date, no one has agreed with your views, leastways, as any could see. For every one who seeks to tear down Christianity and the body of Christ and His work on behalf of lost sinners, there are those who will continue to fight the good fight of faith. We shall continue to interpret the Word with the Word and lean unto the indwelling Holy Spirit for guidance and strength even as false prophets arise and spread their untruths. Those who indeed know what they believe and why will not be thrown off-track with nonsense. And we shall never buckle at the knees of haters, only to drop and roll over in the face of very misguided adversity. Stand Up, Stand Up for Jesus Ye Soldiers Of The Cross. Come back to the Christ of Calvary whose arms are outstretched in forgiveness to His wayward ones…

      • Hi Chet.

        You’ll note, to date, no one has agreed with your views, leastways, as any could see.

        Still using the fallacious “argument from popularity” I see. Far more people world wide do not believe in Christianity, and Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. But that means absolutely nothing except that one is more emotionally satisfying than the others. It says nothing about the truth of either. (from our past conversations, I know you will either ignore this argument or simply deny the logic).

        The fact that any product or proposition is the most popular does not mean that it is right or the best. Check out “argumentum ad populum.”

        Again, most believers in any religion believe it to be true because it is what they were taught from birth to be true and most likely live in a society that has the same beliefs. “Hereditary belief” (taught by parents generation to generation), is the root of the argument that no religion will ever be the TRUTH and it is the reason why Muslims will not believe Christianity and Christians will not believe Islam.

        • Chet

          Hello Hobbs: Para (1) I cannot disagree that Islam is the fastest “religion” growing over the world. In that we are living in the last days before the snatching away of Christ’s own, we can expect evil men and seducers to wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. There are even false Christian ministers proclaiming not, what thus saith the Lord and lazy/unlearned Christians may even fall for their nonsense. Reportedly, Islam is indeed the fastest source of belief in the jails of America among primarily black inmates. Why, I’m not sure, perhaps in large part because far too many Christians are actually visiting jails to spread the one true gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ of Calvary and the hope of forgiveness of sins and eternal life that only He can indeed offer. Additionally, far too many black Americans have listened to the lies of the devil’s own in pronouncing Christ as the white man’s God. Para (3) Christian ministers never quote the Quran in their services, yet, Muslims often quote the Holy Bible from theirs. However, when they speak of Jesus, it is in no wise the Lord Jesus Christ of Calvary, Son, of the true and living God Almighty. You know, the One with whom we all have to do, sooner or later.

          • In that we are living in the last days . . .

            :D. Well, of course you must know that, according to Jesus–or the writers of the Gospels–the “last days” would come in the generation current at the time, and virtually every generation thereafter up to today has claimed the same thing. So, two thousand years later, we are still waiting.

            As for “evil men” and “seducers,” how do you know that politicians who often thump the Bible and pander to fundamentalists aren’t simply seducing for votes–politicians like Trump? It is obvious that he, in fact, is not a religious person, has a history of cheating people out of their money, is enriching himself by profiteering from office, and even today continues to bear false witness.

            Yet, the majority of evangelicals support him. Interesting indeed. I think I know why. He’s taking action against groups/people that they don’t like and undermining the Establishment Clause. In other words, he’s instituting biblically based policies and ignoring the 1st Amendment.

            But this is what is so damaging to America, in my opinion. Fundamentalist Christianity insists on micromanaging the lives of all Americans while demanding that the government stay out of their lives. This lays them wide open for any self-serving politician to manipulate them for personal gain.

            Trump’s main concern is his own bank account. He’s using fundamentalists (along with Russian hacking–most likely with his campaign personnel and family help) for the ultimate purpose of enriching himself, his family and the super wealthy of Wall Street.

            Bottom line, it’s clear that you are more concerned with biblical social issues and I am far more concerned with the economic of workers, especially the working poor.

            I quite sure you and I will never agree on what is best for America.

          • Chet

            Bottom line, you are concerned with secular humanism, whereas I am concerned with men’s eternal souls. Perhaps there’s room for both in that I too care about opportunities for all Americans, period. You, however, have as much as stated you don’t care a whit about your own soul much less that of another’s. Oh, and you confessing to having once been a Christian, must’ve forgotten that one day is as one thousand to the Lord. Thus, the Lord Jesus Christ ascended back to Heaven yesterday and may yet return for His own, today. BTW, how is it you having been born-again somehow became un-born again? I confess to not understanding this matter as one born unto a man and woman, though they disinherit him for any number of reasons, they cannot deny his birth unto them both.

          • Different people see secular humanism in different ways. I’ve probably mentioned this before, but it’s worth repeating daily:

            I try my best to follow only one tenet that was taught by the ancient sages and most religions today; Do unto others as we would have others do unto us.

            I’ve given you the biblical verse that says the same thing. But what you are saying is that although your “loving god” would approve, It would send me to eternal torture anyway for not believing in It? And further, your loving god sends every human being on earth–even though they follow the Golden Rule–to the same Hell for having committed the grave sin of believing the religion taught to him from birth by his parents?

            And you don’t find that a bit inconsistent for a god that loves “all the world?” You have no sense of cognitive dissonance holding those contradictory beliefs?

            (That isn’t a personal attack, just my own logical reasoning). I would never disown my children for disagreeing with me and following the life or beliefs they chose for themselves. I’ve a daughter who is devoutly Christian and believes much the same as you and I still love her and would never consider torturing her for having different world views.

            Why would your loving god be less tolerant and loving than me?

            So, no. That god is not loving or kind, as demonstrated by the act of creating sin and Hell in the first place (were the bible true).

            And, BTW, I do not believe humans have “souls” in a biblical, metaphysical sense.

          • Chet

            And so, how again does one who was once “born-again” as you claimed to be somehow then become un-born again?

          • “. . . how again does one who was once “born-again” as you claimed to have been somehow then become un-born again?”

            Actually, I was never truly born again in the sense you mean because I was taught to believe Christianity just as any Muslim was taught to believe Islam, and never doubted it until I stopped ignoring nagging questions after high school and began to seriously confront my cognitive dissonance–the seeming contradictions I held in my mind.

            That concerted examination was what led to the birth of objective reasoning. So, if you really want to know the details, I’ve recorded them in the preface of the book my journey inspired:

            “My Journey From Religious Exclusivity: The Birth of “The Empathy Imperative””

            And even if one was so removed from his progeny that he opted to “disown” them, well, indeed they could be left-off the Will. Nevertheless, the fact that these offspring were his own could never be undone.

            To disown is to refuse recognition of someone related. I would not do that to my children.

            The god of the OT definitely did (were it factual) disown hundreds of millions as well as kill them–most completely innocent of breaking Its laws because they’d never been given its laws–they’d been taught to belive in their parent’s gods: e.g., the “Plagues of Egypt” (no objective evidence for the truth as written in Exodus); the world wide flood (no objective evidence at all for such an event in geological history); the “Tower of Babel” (no objective evidence for the event as written in Genesis). Joshua’s genocide in Canaan (no objective evidence of its occurrence).

            I wouldn’t disown or kill my children–why am I more just and understanding than that god?

            And I truly say this with respect to you, Chet: you misunderstood my point about sending innocent people to Hell. I don’t know how I can make it more clear. You are saying/implying that no one will go to Hell and be burned/tortured eternally IF they accept Jesus as divine and follow the laws, but if they don’t, even though they were very good people, they go to Hell.

            Chet, I simply cannot spell it out again except to say that Christianity is most likely what you’ve been taught or nurtured to believe. Had you been born in a Muslim society to a Muslim family you most likely would be, today, a devout Muslim.

            The logic is irrefutable. Think about that. You would never give up your beliefs and neither will the Muslim. You say he is wrong and he says you are wrong. You are mirror images of each other.

            And again, I do not say that in disrespect but as an iron clad logical argument–strong, yes, but still logic.

          • Chet

            You, Sir, are an intelligent man for sure. You have now, however, opened my eyes to something you stated some time ago in a previous post. That being that you were once a Christian. Now, you exclaim in para two that you never were truly born again. Thus, you were not saved, were not a Christian, were not a believer who somehow lost his way, but, you were never in the family of God to begin with. It’s now easier for me to understand your atheistic position and it makes sense to me in that the Holy Spirit is not within your heart nor has He ever been, according to your new admission. You, Hobbs, apparently had a head belief, fuzzy as it may have been, but your stony heart was never removed and placed with your chest a new heart of flesh. A new cleansed one made exclusively possible by the precious blood of the Lamb of God who willingly gave His life on Calvary’s Old Rugged Cross for you, for me.

            I have inquired of you to share with me any supposed entity, the object of any man’s faith, who declared mankind all to be sinners, and yet, who loved them so much that he, this same object of man’s faith, would leave the splendor of Heaven and come to this sin cursed Earth to dwell among men, always doing good for them. And yet would willingly allow himself to be spit on, stripped of his clothing, blasphemed, mocked and held in absolute derision by howling mobs only to subsequently allow such men to nail him to a Cross to suffer and die for something that he never did, SIN. Respectfully, I await your naming such man/woman/object. Again, someone who declared men guilty, yet, would continue to bless them, love them and pay the price for their guilt in his own person. Thus, maintaining his own perfect Holiness while providing the sole means by which fallen man can be entirely forgiven. And get this, with his myriad sins even forgotten at the point of conversion. I say praise the Lord for such person, the Lord Jesus Christ of Calvary is He…

          • Geez, Chet.

            First off, I recognize that you are ignoring most of my previous arguments. That, in itself, suggests an erected defense against cognitive dissonance.

            Now, you exclaim in para two that you never were truly born again. Thus, you were not saved, were not a Christian, were not a believer who somehow lost his way, but, you were never in the family of God to begin with.

            Again, with all respect, I said “in YOUR sense of the word.” So, who are you to tell me what I firmly believed and what I didn’t? Did I decided to lock my mind in an impenetrable vault–as do fundamentalists/evangelicals of ALL religions? No. I chose to USE my mind with intellectual honesty and integrity.

            So, the real difference here is that my mind–through no fault(?) of my own–was open to logical arguments and I was willing to honestly study them to ascertain objective truth–not the subjective truth of religion, but the objective truths of logic and science.

            And, as well, by making the claim that one must be “born again” in your sense of the phrase, 100s of millions of “god fearing” Christians around the world are bound for Hell for not proclaiming they were “born again?”

            Are you trying to whittle the “saved” down to the 144,000 written in Revelation? In that case, you are suggesting that 100s of billions will be/have been sent to Hell even though they believed (because that is what they were taught to believe).

            No need to quote from John 3 where the character, Jesus, dialogues with the character Nicodemus. I really know precisely what you mean. I’m just trying to point out the absurd and contradictive nature of a “loving” god sending billions to hell for the crime of not being “born again,” even though they took the Bible to heart (mind).

            But this is exactly what I mean when I say that religion (especially fundamentalist religion) is the most divisive concept on earth. Don’t you know that, to a devout Muslim, if you are not a practicing, devout Muslim you will be going to Hell? Exactly what makes Christians right anymore than Muslims? You cannot point to anything in your Bible to prove you are right that a Muslim can’t point to in the Quran to prove he is right.

            Or, are you saying that just because your god made himself a martyr by appearing in human form and then having himself whacked by a cross, that proves it? A blood sacrifice from a “loving” god? Really, Dick Cheney had SUSPECTED terrorists (or anyone who might have know a terrorist) subjected to more torture than what the Gospels say happened to Jesus.

            And, Chet, you’ve yet to comment on the 100s of millions (billions?) of innocent people the Bible SAYS he destroyed just because they didn’t abide by the laws given ONLY to the Jews.

          • Chet

            The exclamation to men to be born again comes not from the lips of converted sinners but from the creator of all flesh. God says what he means and means what he says. You have the last word and as I think of you, Sir, I’ll pray for you to come unto the Lord Jesus Christ of Calvary thinking how great a witness for his glory and honor one such as yourself could become via blood bought salvation with accompanying internal transformation via his then (upon conversion) indwelling Holy Spirit. God mightily bless your Christian daughter who longs for your soul’s salvation more than any man, save Christ himself… Out.

          • That’s kind of you. Thanks.

      • LynnRH

        “there are those who will continue to fight the good fight of faith.” “Those who indeed know what they believe and why will not be thrown off-track with nonsense.” “We shall never buckle at the knees of haters, only to drop and roll over in the face of very misguided adversity.”

        Thank you Chet……..you have described me to a tee! 🙂 God bless you!

        • Chet

          To God be the glory! And God bless you, Lynn…

      • Still bent on the fallacious argument from popularity, eh? I keep telling you but you seem to have a problem reading comprehension and logic. I don’t care what people believe as long as they don’t attempt to force those beliefs on the rest of society.

        You certainly have the right to advocate your religious beliefs, but not to use the government to propagate those views through legislation.

        Of course, there are many puffed up, pandering politicians who, in order to get votes, will oblige you by finding underhanded ways to do just that. These are the Trumpians whose views and past history run counter to your Gospels. While placating your sensibilities with rhetoric and getting your vote, they work for the primacy of Wall Street by tightening its grip on government and making them more money in the process.

        To be against equal rights of all citizens is to reject the Constitution. Many (most?) Christians claim, ironically, that they are “strict constitutionalists.” But then they reject the Establishment Clause and the 14th Amendment’s Equal Protection Clause (which made the Establishment Clause applicable to the States).

        Be happy with your religion. Shout it from your rooftop; hoist crosses and erect ten commandments monuments on your property; always say “marry Christmas,” refuse to marry someone of your own gender; force your wife to refuse an abortion even if it will save her life and the fetus is already dead. Just please stop trying to invade the private lives of others citizens and control women’s right to govern their own reproductive lives.

        • Chet

          And are you happy in your unbelief and outright opposition? You are willfully blind spiritually of the truth and your opposition to all things of the true and living God of the Holy Bible seems to have you in its death grip. Such position also affects those who read your works or hear in your voice the radical opposition you have in your heart for the Lord of all flesh. Using one’s own power of choice and personal freedom, you elect to gamble your own eternity that there is no God, no love for all us lost sinners, no Heaven to gain, no sacrifice on the part of His only begotten Son (the Lord Jesus Christ of Calvary) no judgment and no Hell. However, we who do hold God’s Word above man’s will do what we can when we can via the indwelling Holy Spirit to warn the lost and advise them of the good news – Jesus saves from the guttermost to the uttermost, no exceptions, no turn-aways. And we will not be confined or stifled by anyone or any entity, including the Devil himself. God bless. Out, for now.

          • I love the way you couch your questions. But I can do that too.

            Are you happy with your closed mind? I find tons of satisfaction in knowing that I respect reason/logic and evidence over what you call “truth” (unfounded and subjective). That word, “truth,” is the most abused word in the English language. But a course in critical thinking (informal logic) and/or epistemology would fix that with a great many folks.

            So, absolutely! I am very happy with my open mind and opposition to closed minds that want to close the minds of others. I’m happy that I believe in equal rights and opportunities. That was the purpose of most of the Constitution, especially the Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses in the Bill of RIGHTS.

            The meaning of both clauses is what Jefferson stated in A bill for establishing religious freedom. This is the document that forms the solid foundation upon which the Establishment and Free Exercise clauses rest. To be informed about what judges most often reference in matters of church State separation, you should read the document. It’s a short read.
            So, to boil all this down to its base elements; what Christians have the freedom to do, under the law, all other religions and even the non religious have the very same freedom. Thus, under the Constitution, all religions and the non religious have the same rights in matters of belief and practice.

          • Chet

            One day, Hobbs, we shall draw our last breath, hopefully, not today. The bottom line for me is that I have faith in the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ of Calvary to wash away all my myriad sins even as He has clothed me in His righteousness, alone. Thus, I’ll be faultless to stand before His throne.
            That is, after I bow fully prostate at His nail scarred feet and thank Him for saving my eternal soul and for in-turn keeping me saved. Just as I could not save myself neither could I keep myself saved. It’s all Jesus, all. If it turns out I was mistaken and at death I cease to exist I’ll know nothing, and sense nothing, just as animal roadkill. My state will be same as that of all others.

            I am absolutely convinced of this blood bought salvation and have sensed God’s presence in my life at the point of my initial salvation, many years ago. I have been delivered from drunkenness and various other absolutely unsavory characteristics of many, if not most men. So, my life has been blessed in addition to that of my eternal soul, should God’s Word be true. Although it cost Christ Jesus everything, my Christianity has cost me nothing as a freeborn American whereas others of like precious faith across the globe all too often, especially nowadays, pay with their lives and limbs et al.

            We could continue respectfully agreeing to disagree and you could never change my train of thought as I’ve come too far to turn back now. And I must needs share God’s good news gospel wherever and however possible as such was once shared with me. Even though for the longest time, I cared not to hear such preferring my sin.

            I, in my flesh, will never be able to convince you to seek the Christ I love and respect and praise and fear and am altogether thankful for. However, for sure, the Holy Spirit can indeed present Christ to you and draw you to Him in faith believing. And at some point, I pray, along with your doubtless loving daughter, that He will do just that. God bless and out. Anything further from you now and you will have the last word.

          • Chet, good for you. I think that you are happy in that subjective belief. I wish you well.

    • Thekla

      Chet says no one has agreed with your views. Well I do! And I know many others who would as well, if they came here.

      • Thank you Thekla, I appreciate that. I’m never surprised that many (most?) fundamentalists disagree with the idea of equal rights. Many others disagree as well. Politically that tends to be conservatives of both major parties.

        The argument from popularity is often brought up in theological debates. It is fallacious, of course. Just because an idea is the most popular does not mean it is the best idea or that, without evidence, it is true. For example, Ford might sell more pickup trucks than any other manufacturer, but the popularity may very well be a better sales model.

        This is true even on an extreme scale. If ALL the world believed in the truth of a single proposition, the gross weight of all that belief, without supporting evidence, would lend not a nanogram of truth to the proposition.

        It is sad, however, that so many reject equal rights. The single tenet by which I conduct my life–the Golden Rule–is even in the Bible. But it tends to be completely ignored by the most devout Christians:

        Luke 6:31, KJV; And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.”

        It is in many other religions as well and was advocated by the ancient sages. It is, without a doubt, the greatest of tenets and the ONLY path to world peace.

  • call me roy

    I think you should join Islam Rob. You will be satisfied at last.