Glenn Beck Chokes Up Over His Recollection of When Billy Graham Defended Him, a Mormon, as Being Christian

In a video posted to YouTube on the day of Billy Graham’s death, talk show host Glenn Beck emotionally recollected to Ruth Graham, the daughter of Billy Graham, a time that he said Graham defended him—knowing that he was a Mormon—as being a Christian.

The video was of a 2014 interview in which the two talked about the life and character of Graham, and the memories they had of the crusade preacher.

“I remember five years ago, your father asked me some very pointed questions,” Beck outlined at one point during the discussion. “And somebody in the room said, ‘Just a reminder, he’s Mormon.’ And your father turned to the individual and said, ‘I know.'”

“And he looked back at me and said—we were talking about a certain subject—and he said, ‘Tell me how you know that came from Christ,'” he recalled. “And I told him.”

“And he (Graham) looked back to the other individual and said, ‘He sure sounds Christian to me,'” Beck said.

Ruth Graham nodded her head and smiled.

Beck then fell silent as he became visibly moved in recounting the story.

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Moments later, after gathering himself, he turned to Ruth and asked, “How do we get people to play nice with each other?”

“Oh, Glenn,” she replied, taking a deep breath. “I don’t know. We have such division. We have such rancor, not only in our political world, but in our Christian world, our religious world. And I know that breaks Jesus’ heart.”

Ruth said that she characterizes herself as being a person of inclusion.

“I just love people. I don’t want to draw lines. I want to include people,” she stated. “And if in that inclusion, I gather in some black sheep, well and good. But I’d rather err on the side of grace than I would on judgment. I just am not going to stand in judgment of other people.”

When Beck noted that he had spent just one afternoon with Billy, Ruth replied, “He remembers it so well. He remembers it fondly, and he certainly thinks so much of you.”

She later told a story to explain her father’s spirit toward people.

“When we were children, we were making fun of the devil, and Daddy stopped us and said, ‘Don’t make fun of the devil. He’s a good devil,'” Ruth recounted, laughing. “Daddy never said anything ugly about anybody. … It’s quite a legacy for me, to not be so critical.”

View the discussion below, which starts at 27:22 into the video.

As previously reported, in 2012, Graham’s son Franklin advised during an interview with CNN that a page that was removed from the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association website following his endorsement of presidential candidate Mitt Romney, which classified Mormonism as a cult, was “not going to come back.”

“I was shocked that we even had that on there,” Franklin said. “[W]e’re calling people names. If I want to win people to Christ, how can I call them names?”

“So, we just took it off,” he continued, insinuating that he made the final decision in the matter. “And it’s not going to come back, because I don’t want to be involved in calling a person a name.”

The page, entitled, “What is a Cult?” read, “A cult is any group which teaches doctrines or beliefs that deviate from the Biblical message of the Christian faith. It is very important that we recognize cults and avoid any involvement with them. Cults often teach some Christian truth mixed with error, which may be difficult to detect.”

It then listed among three bullet points on how to identify a cult, “They do not adhere solely to the sixty-six books of the Bible as the inspired Word of God. They add their ‘special revelations’ to the Bible and view them as equally authoritative.”

“Some of these groups are Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, the Unification Church, Unitarians, Spiritists, Scientologists and others,” the web page stated.

Following reports of the removal, Billy Graham’s media representative, A. Larry Ross, released a statement explaining the move.

“Mr. Graham’s calling is not to pass judgment, but to proclaim the Biblical truth that Jesus is the only way to heaven, allowing every individual and group to fall along that plumb line,” Ross outlined. “He further stressed that salvation is the work of Almighty God, and that only He knows what is in each human heart.”

In 2005, during an interview with Larry King, Graham likewise noted that he doesn’t judge those of other religions.

“I love them all, and welcome them all, and love to be with them, and friends with all of them. For example, I just talked to a man in New York City—he was a Mormon,” he said. “And I’ve loved the Mormons for years, and yet there is a big divide between the Mormons and some of the other groups. But, I have great friends among the Mormons, and the same among the Catholics. Of course, I loved Pope John Paul II and watched the whole process of his suffering, his dying and the tremendous—my daughter went to represent me .”

King then asked, “What about those like the Jews, the Muslims, who don’t believe [in Christ]?”

Graham replied, “That’s in God’s hands. I can’t be their judge.”

King echoed, “You don’t judge them?”

Graham answered, “No. I don’t say they’re going to Hell and they’re….”

“How do you feel when you see a lot of these strong Christian leaders go on television and say, ‘You are condemned. You will live in Hell if you do not accept Jesus Christ.’ And they are forceful and judgmental,” King asked.

“Well, they have a right to say that, and they are true to a certain extent. But that’s not my calling,” Graham replied. “My calling is to preach the love of God and the forgiveness of God, and the fact that He does forgive us. That’s what the cross is all about, what the resurrection’s all about. That’s the gospel. And you can get off on all kinds of different side trails. In my earlier ministry, I did the same. But as I got older, I guess became more mellow and more forgiving and more loving.”

In Matthew 10:34-36, Jesus said in outlining that the Truth divides, “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth. I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.”

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  • HpO

    Surprise, surprise? Not really. It’s consistent and as unique as a Billy Graham signature – I give him that.

    Before his infamous interview with brother Robert Schuller, see, in “Hour of Power”, May 31, 1997, my born-again Christian brother Billy Graham said the following in his interview with Detroit Free Press, January 12, 1997, entitled, “Keeping the Faith by Shunning Politics”:

    “We have many divisions. … There are a lot of divisions … But the main divisions are, of course, theological. We pay a tremendous price for the divisions. I wish we could all be united. So a few years ago, I started inviting everyone – Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, everyone – to come. We got a tremendous response because people want to be with each other. … Theology never changes. A man’s heart is the same.”

    Whatever the last 2 seemingly contradictory sentences mean in context.

    I’m sure he was being inclusive then too toward Mormons like brother Glenn Beck – just as he already was – in 1997 – toward Muslims!

    • robert boe

      The German word for what you describe is Schwarmer. Or can be spelled with a ei to.. Its when preachers or others say things or think things that differs from scripture. Not because there mean there emotions and feelings for people swarm up and get the better of them. Forgetting the bible tells people of the ultimate humanitarian … Stay with the Bible .There is no more loving message than what it has said ..There is no other way to God the father than by way of Jesus. He is the only way. I can one believe if they have not been told of Jesus ? They cant. That’s why the famous bible verse send me send me. Is so near and dear to bible believers..

      • HpO

        I don’t know about that.

        According to William R. Russell, “Martin Luther’s Protestant Opponents”, Oxford Research Encyclopedias:

        “In the wake of Martin Luther’s (1483–1546) public calls for reform, groups … referred to Luther as an inspiration, and they often associated themselves with Luther and his reforms. In order to distance himself from these groups, Luther used the pejorative German word, Schwärmerei to describe and critique what he saw as their most fundamental error: that they would establish their respective churches on a foundation other than what he called, in the Smalcald Articles (1538), the ‘First and Chief Article’ of the Christian faith: Christ alone, grace alone, faith alone, and God’s Word alone. Moreover, because these opponents also represented forms of 16th-century protest against the Roman Catholic Church, they would cite him as a source of their teaching. His use of Schwärmerei, then, separates his reform proposal from the ideas and the implications of these groups. As a metaphor, Schwärmerei also vilifies Luther’s Protestant opponents as ‘swarms’ of bees or locusts. The term not only links Luther’s opponents together, it also identifies their presence as unpredictable and hazardous. This usage clearly reflected the polemical discourse common in this historical period and contributed to the generally harsh persecutions of the groups in principalities ruled by Lutherans. … For Luther, the Word alone, as God’s law and God’s gospel, provides the basis for the one, holy, Christian, and apostolic church. His opponents disagreed that such a foundation was sufficient for the church to be the church. Indeed, by the end of his career, the Reformer would describe nearly all of his opponents as Schwärmer—eventually even including the papacy and the Roman Catholic Church among their ranks.”

  • vicnicholls

    Which tells you everything about Billy Graham’s theology and his heart and those who followed him.

    • robert boe

      No because a christian who does not know the meaning of the words there using is taught different by Mormons. Would think ,Well this Mormon fellow agrees with everything I say. He must be Christian to..

      • vicnicholls

        That’s what I meant. We are not contradicting each other.

        • robert boe

          OK thumbs up?

  • robert boe

    When christian talk about God and salvation how to be saved every Mormon just about can easily agree with them,..Because Mormons use the exact same words.. The problem is the meanings of those words are not the same to Mormons.. God grace and heaven and many other words Christian say have a totally different meaning to the Mormon. Thanks to John Smith who grew up in a methodist household and changed the meaning of common christian words for his purposes. Truth in love ministry are going back to Utah they have 35,000 Mormon people now coming to their websites interested I’n Christianity. Because of the work that was done in Utah. Check out truth and love ministries and the work pastor Mark Cares and many others are doing its on the web.. You can Learn mormonese. Their meaning of the words!! so you can better tell them about Jesus in a way they need to hear to understand. What your saying .

  • Robin Egg

    You know, all I can say for sure is, that God and God alone knows the heart. I have heard Glenn Beck state loud and clear in an international stage that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and by His Blood he is saved.

    Matthew 10:13
    Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

    That is God’s Word. The Bible.

    • robert boe

      Yes only God knows the heart. But What Mormon could not say the exact same thing as what you say Glen beck said. They can and mean it to .But the problem is there understanding of those words are different than Christians. To make it way to simple .. Mormons believe they can eventually by their own hard work on there part become perfect., so they can pay Jesus back for what he Did.. And earn themselves Godhood just like they think Jesus did..

      • Robin Egg

        Yet on another thread just a few days ago, you defended two lesbian women clergy stating who is anybody to judge somebody else’s church….eh? You condemn yourself by your own words.

      • Bot

        Theosis was taught in the 2nd Century:

        Irenaeus (2nd Century): ” we have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods”

        Clement of Alexandria (2nd Century): “worthy men are called by the appellation of gods, being destined to sit on thrones
        with the other gods that have been first put in their places by the Savior.“

        Justin Martyr (2nd Century): “all men are deemed worthy of becoming ‘gods’, and of having power to become sons of the Highest . . .”

        Athanasius of Alexandria (3rd Century Coptic) wrote: “The Son of God became man, that we might become God.”

        • Amos Moses – He>i

          none of which is scriptural ……………..

          <blockquote? In 1311 the Council of Vienne declared this notion, "that man in this present life can acquire so great and such a degree of perfection that he will be rendered inwardly sinless, and that he will not be able to advance farther in grace" (Denziger §471), to be a heresy. Instead of theosis, sanctification, being set apart or made holy, is the term that is used more in Protestant theology. Specifically, progressive sanctification is the term that is used for the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit, whereby an individual is made more holy.

          • Bot

            You have provided an 1311 interpretation. I would prefer the Second Century interpretations of those scriptures prohibited by Athanasius in 325 A.D. Check out the Nag Hammadi scriptures for verification.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            those sources did not have a complete cannon ….. and many times they had one book ….. and in any event …… it is still heresy and not scriptural ……………. as there is nothing Christ every taught that even comes close to saying it is true ….. OT OR NT ….. and when it is mentioned it is ridiculed by YHVH ………… it is idolatry and it is a haughty spirit ….. and it is frequently used today by so-called “prosperity preachers” as the “little god” theory …… and it is garbage ……..

          • MelinTN

            Neither is the Nicean Creed but that is used to discredit any non-Trinitarian church, including the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            not the samething ……. the trinity is part of scripture even if the word is not used ……

          • Stuart McHardy

            This council – what was their authority, again? God had withdrawn, according to Nicean Christianity, so were they inspired? From whence came their authority? They were further removed from the pure teachings of Jesus the Christ even than those 2nd century ‘authorities’ as quoted by Bot, weren’t they? Curious…

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i am not defending the council ….. i am defending SCRIPTURE ….. and there is no scriptural support for the position we are or become gods …….. FYI ….. we would not have a bound canon if not for the Holy Spirit working through men in council to acknowledge a canon and to publish it ….. the apostles were a COUNCIL ………

          • Stuart McHardy

            But your compadre says there was no divinely sourced continuing revelation, no need for it, and in fact, a ban on it. As far back as Ecclesiastes, he says, but yet there were books written following that, and John’s book of Revelation was written before several of the books of the New Testament, so how does that ‘nothing shall be added’ allow for that? Or rather, that edict that y’all hold that God had no plans to continue to engage with his children comes and goes? John says no more, but the councils add books written after his? Looking for some consistency here…

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i do not know what “compadre” you are referring to …… there are several admonitions against adding or subtracting from Gods word ….. Deuteronomy 4:2, Deuteronomy 12:32, Proverbs 30:6, Galatians 1:8-9, 2 Peter 1:19-21, Revelation 22 18-21 ……. but once Christ came the scriptures were fulfilled …. not all of prophecy was fulfilled ….. but the canon was …… councils are supposed to clarify but even they are not allowed to violate scripture ….. and they did not add any books nor write any …….. and if they do it can be disregarded ……. Gods canon is only recognized and it is Gods canon …… it is apart from men ………… the only consistent position is scripture ….. Sola Scriptura as ultimate authority …….. FYI …. Revelation is mostly a restatement of Daniel and a few other OT texts ….. so not adding and consistent ….. God still deals with His creation ….. on a daily, hourly, minute to minute and intimate way ……

      • Franklin Warner

        Being a Mormon and a former evangelical I can emphatically tell you your assertion that LDS members believe that we are saved by works is wrong.
        For by grace are yea saved….
        Our good works, our church callings, our service to others is an outgrowth of God’s grace working in our lives NOT an attempt to earn salvation.
        Or as the Epistle of James, “Faith without works is dead.” Our good works is proof of our faith and evidence of our salvation in Christ.

        • vicnicholls

          How do you deal with the Mormon belief of becoming a god on your own planet? How do you deal with God being man and then becoming God? How do you deal with Jesus and Satan are brothers? That’s Mormon doctrine.

          • Franklin Warner

            I typically do not bother with discussing doctrinal differences, but I feel you are sincerely asking this question in an attempt to understand me. Thank you, that is most refreshing.

            Let me first point out the following is my own opinion. Let me further point out that it is possible for reasonable people to have different interpretations of the same scripture.

            Concerning your question about godhood: Mormons would describe this as the doctrine of eternal progression. And biblically speaking there are verses in the Bible that give some credence to this doctrine.

            Sons of God Genesis 6
            Have I not said you are gods John 10:34
            We shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is. 1 Jn 3:2
            Etc, etc, etc…..

            I could go on and with examples and I’m quite sure you could counter those with scriptures of your own and that is perfectly fine. Personally, I am not sure what the end result of “be yea perfect as the father is perfect” will result in. All I know is that I look forward to that day when all the doubts and short comings of this life will fall off me.

          • vicnicholls

            Official Mormon doctrine, as has been discussed, is not the same thing as Bible based Christianity.

          • Franklin Warner

            At which point you and I will have to agree to disagree (as mentioned before I was once an evangelical).

            As I asked in my original post, do you know any Mormons? If so, what fruits of the spirit have you observed in their lives? If so, what does that say about their faith in Christ?

            If you don’t know any Mormons I would humbly suggest that maybe you take the time to do so. If you do know Mormons and can’t see past doctrinal issues and see the faith they have then…. Well that’s where you are. Not a criticism, as it wasn’t too long ago that I was also of the same mindset.

            Again, I’m not particularly interested in arguing doctrinal issues, because: 1) they rarely change anyone’s mind; and 2) such disagreements tend to dissuade people outside our faith from joining any church to begin with (CS Lewis – Mere Christianity)

            May our Father bless and keep you! ?

          • vicnicholls

            Actually I do, as you learn a lot in the workplace. I’ve not seen any fruit of the spirit in terms of Biblical Christianity, where the first item is to glorify Christ. I don’t see underwear or temple rituals as things Christ established. Certainly rites for dead people aren’t in there, as we’re told not to have any dealings with them. Don’t see daily Bible study. They don’t really profess Christ or the Bible. They talk about the Pearl of Great Price, the angel Moroni, becoming a god, having kids and all these spirit children in Heaven waiting to be born and needing to have those kids to give them a body. That Satan is Christs’ brother. Those who have been FLDS and changed, they said FLDS is closer to Joseph Smiths’ version than the current version.

            I know what I’ve read, been taught, and picked up from the Mormons around, including missionaries. I can read online what the beliefs are. If you have stuff issued from the Apostles or Quorum of 12 (isn’t Nelson the one in charge, and considered a prophet?) let me know.

            My beliefs are set because this is what I”m looking at of the official writings of the Mormon group (except for FLDS noted). If you have research or data, I’m more than willing to look at it and change what I think if it falls in that genre. However, there are a lot of Mormon “traits” that differ from Biblical Christianity. As the Bible says you’re not to add to or subtract from The Book.

          • Franklin Warner

            Fruits of the Spirit: See Galatians 5:22-23

            If you haven’t heard about Christ from Mormons I would wonder how welll you have listened because Christ and his atonement is central to our doctrine. As is the Bible.

            What you mention above is talking points I typically hear from anti-Mormon websites.

            You are set in your beliefs, that is good. As I mentioned earlier it is not my job to convince you to leave your church. It is all our jobs, as Christians, to help people follow Christ. I feel I can do that best where I am at. I hope you feel the same about where you are.

            Your reply is an example of why I don’t argue doctrine. It rarely changes anyone’s mind and it only serves as a stumbling block to those who don’t have a relationship with Him.

            If you have any sincere questions I can answer for you I’d be happy to do so. If you wish to disparage my faith or my relationship with Christ, well this is where our discussion comes to an end.

            I wish you well. I hope your church family serves your spiritual needs ? .

            May our Father bless and keep you!

          • Franklin Warner

            One more item, your quote, “add or subtract” taken from Revelations is taken out of context. Almost all theologians agree that the Apostle John was specifically referring to the last book of the Bible.

          • vicnicholls

            I’ll tell Eber that he isn’t Mormon. He can start eating chocolate cake with coffee laced chocolate frosting. He’ll be happy. I also check out official doctrine and we go to that on FLDS and LDS webpages. Your own. Those missionaries don’t preach Christ crucified – so I suggest you talk to the missions board because these kids must be clueless.

            I’m set in the belief that the Bible is the infallible, God breathed/inspired Word of Him. My church would tell you I change based on what I see that I think is right but the Bible shows me is wrong. So from your own “Scripture”, am I right or wrong?

            God resides near a star called Kolob, Pearl of Great Price, pages 34-35, Mormon Doctrine, p. 428)

            God is increasing in knowledge, (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 120)

            We were first begotten as spirit children in heaven and then born naturally on earth, (Journal of Discourse, Vol. 4, p. 218).

            There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 188)

            Why did the angel take Nephi Plates back to heaven? Do they not belong with man? Would not their existence prove once for all that Mormonism is truth? God allowed the Jews to carry the 10 commandments for several centuries in their original physical form, written by the finger of God Himself!

            How can we be assured that the translation of the B of M into French or any other language is correct? Only the English translation is claimed to be inspired.

            How do you account for the stunning parallels in both content and order between the B of M and the View of the Hebrews, by Ethan Smith? Published in 1823 (7 years before the B of M) less than 100 miles from
            the Joseph Smith’s parents home.

            Mormon Article of Faith #8: “We Believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.” Why do you only add the phrase, “as far as it is translated correctly” to describe the Bible and not after the book of Mormon when in fact there are far more translating errors in the Book of Mormon than the Bible?

            If the Book of Mormon is true, then why has the Mormon church changed it? Examples are: 1 Nephi 11:21; 19:20; 20:1 and Alma 29:4. Compare these with the original Book of Mormon. (Gerald and Sandra Tanner have counted 3913 changes in the book of Mormon, excluding
            punctuation changes.)

            How did Joseph Smith carry home the golden plates of the Book of Mormon, and how did the witnesses lift them so easily? (They weighed about 230 lbs. Gold, with a density of 19.3 weighs 1204.7 lbs. per cubicfoot. The plates were 7″ x 8″ by about 6″. See Articles of Faith, by Talmage, page 262, 34th ed.)

            If Moroni devoutly practiced the Mormon Gospel, why is he an angel now rather than a God? (Doc. & Cov. 132:17,37)

            Why do Mormons emphasize part of the Word of Wisdom and ignore the part forbidding the eating of meat except in winter, cold or famine? (Doc. & Cov. 89:12,13).

            When Christ died, did darkness cover the land for three days or for three hours? (Luke 23:44 and 3 Nephi 8:19, 23).

            Joseph Smith said that there are men living on the moon who dress like Quakers and live to be nearly 1000 years old. Since he was wrong about the moon, is it safe to trust him regarding the way to Heaven? (The Young Woman’s Journal, Vol. 3, pages 263-264. See a reprint in
            Mormonism –Shadow or Reality? by Jerald and Sandra Tanner, page 4.)

            If Jesus was conceived as a result of a physical union between God and Mary, how was Jesus born of a virgin? (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 50).

            How did Nephi with a few men on a new continent build a temple like Solomon’s while Solomon needed 163,300 workmen and seven years to build his temple? (1 Kings 5:13-18 and 2 Nephi 5:15-17).

            God rejected the fig leaf aprons which Adam and Eve made (Gen. 3:21). Why do Mormons memorialize the fall by using fig leaf aprons in the secret temple ceremonies?

            How do you explain the fact that 2 Nephi 16:2 is copied from an older version of the KJV of the Bible in Isa 6:2? This is proven because this older KJV (the mistake is corrected in current versions) made a rare gramatical error by using the incorrect plural form of “seraphims” rather than “seraphim”.

          • Franklin Warner

            Titus 3:9-11

          • vicnicholls

            I’m sorry, I missed the above quotations from Mormon writings and whether or not those are true or not, and if not, what is the truth.

          • vicnicholls

            Deuteronomy 4:2 “You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take anything from it” (Deuteronomy 12:32). “The entirety of Your word is truth” (Psalms 119: 160). “Add thou not unto His words, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a liar” Proverbs 30:6.

          • Stuart McHardy

            Didn’t all the other 66 books of the Old Testament follow Deuteronomy? Following your logic, there shouldn’t have been anything thereafter. Oh, but the scribes and priests of the early dark ages were ok’d to assemble the Bible as we have it, even though most of it was given or written after those you have quoted. Again, which is it?

            What you are saying, along with your quip earlier that continuing revelation is impossible or not of God, is that God spoke, to one faction of people, and has retreated, hidden Himself, and no longer will deal with mankind, until Judgement Day? I don’t think he is an absentee Father.

          • vicnicholls

            There is no need of “continuing revelation”. Once you allow that, you allow all sorts of heresies. Canon is closed. A personal relationship with Jesus Christ is all we need to have to get to heaven, so there is no other need for any “revelation” that goes against Scripture.

          • Stuart McHardy

            So God and Jesus were there when the 66 books were formed? Wasn’t that done by priests and others of the Catholic faith, who, by earlier discussion above, carry no authority, and from whom your statements of doctrine descended? Who revealed to them the need or idea to put together those books? I would suggest God so loved the world that he sent His Only Begotten Son, and not a committee. At least not committees that acted totally devoid of some divine inspiration, somewhere alone the line. Egad, but that would be ‘continuing revelation?’

          • Stuart McHardy

            Interesting. Ask a straight and simple question, and it is ignored. Why is there any scripture canonized after Deuteronomy?

          • vicnicholls

            Why not discuss doctrinal differences? I find a learn a lot that way. There is huge difference between saying someone is a jerk or idiot, compared to disecting writings, meanings, and context.

            I listen to what others have said and then go back to Mormon writings. So I’m taking that as the rule, same as I would the Bible, except for obvious stuff like genetics that I alluded to elsewhere.

            There is a lot of Scripture that’s not up for grabs.

            We become sons of God when we have a personal relationship thru Him due to Christs’ sacrifice on the cross.

            Genesis 6 – the word son or “ben” has a more wider interpretation in Hebrew than English. Although it can mean “son” as male offspring of parents (Gen. 5:4), it can refer to a variety of relationships that someone belongs to. Psalms 147:13 is a son of a city, Proverbs 1:10 is a student, and Job 41:28 is an arrow. So that expression (I studied/read/spoke Hebrew, Greek I never picked up as well) refers to someone connected to God in some way, but it is not specific. “sons of ‘Elohim'” is used in Job 1:6, 2:1, and is in reference to angels. Psalms 29:1 and 89:7 use that phrase and it can be referring to things in the heavens or sky. Psalms 82:6 may refer to sons of God as the elders in Israel. Daniel uses that phrase refering to spiritual beings. In Deut. 32, Israel is portrayed as the spiritual son of God.

            Makes a big difference when you go back to the original writings in their language, the context, etc.

            So I would take the rest of your items there and compare them in Greek to see what the Bible says.

            In addition, Adam and Eve at the apple, which God said they would become like gods, knowing the difference between good and evil. So when they both ate the apple, sin came into the world and required Christs’ sacrifice to atone for it. If becoming like God gets you thrown out of Eden, condemns the race of man to Hell for his disobedience to God, requires Christ, the only perfect sacrifice, to atone for it, 1) why would a Mormon want to be a god? God tossed them out of Eden, they were ruined 2) man was perfect until he wanted to become like God and then death came into the world and 3) how is it that we all die but God didn’t? Surely if there were other gods, then they could have ganged up against the God of the Bible and overpowered Him. How come they haven’t? If you are a god with unlimited power and all knowing, why not come back here and subjecate everyone?

          • Franklin Warner

            CS Lewis states in Mere Christianity, “Differences between various denominations typically involve matters of high theology and should only be discussed by experts and never in the company of those outside our faith. Said disagreements have the tendency of disuading people outside our faith from joining any church to begin with.”

            I don’t engage in doctrinal debates because they are counter productive and, quite frankly, not a good use of my time when someone has expressed an opinion that discounts my faith and belief in Christ. But again that is okay too. Like I said, it wasn’t too long ago that I held a similar mindset. It’s a Circle of life moment that I find amusing.

            It’s been fun chatting with you ?

            God bless and keep you, Vic!

          • vicnicholls

            He will but I know He won’t you. Start questioning because your eternal life depends on it.

          • Franklin Warner

            Thank you for being concerned for my soul. I felt similar when I was an evangelical and spoke to my Mormon friends. Nice to know we have so much in common! I suspect in a few years I’ll see you at the temple!

          • vicnicholls

            If you can answer all the questions and discrepancies posted here regarding Mormonism, that would be interesting.

            If someone who is a “Christian” turns to false gospels, they weren’t a Christian in the first place. John 10:28.

            When Mormonism isn’t persecuted, but the world loves it, that should give you another indication it is of the world. John 15:19.

            The only way you’d see me at a temple is to ask people the questions I’ve posted, with a lot more of them I have. Galations 1:8.

          • Franklin Warner

            Have a nice day, Vic.

          • Jerry Sutton

            No Holy Ghost in you!

          • vicnicholls

            Hmmm witnessing to the lost/rebuking false doctrine on this area: check. Matt 28:19-20, II Timothy 3:16.

          • Brandon Stephenson

            I recognize where one of your issues with Mormonism may be. That last paragraph on the Fall of Adam and Eve shows a lot. Mormon belief on the Fall is very different from the rest of Christianity as we see it as a progression of Adam and Eve after being beguiled and falling, only to then learn how to be saved with the Sacrifice of Christ. Thus the entire Old Testament Law of Moses and sacrifices pointing to the great and last Sacrifice of Christ, which ended the sacrifice of blood, His blood being the Infinite Atonement to not only save Adam and Eve, but all of us from the effects of the Fall, sin and death. The knowledge gained through the Fall as well as the ability to have children furthered God’s plan to do exactly as the Bible teaches and provide opportunity for us to become gods if we choose. Satan (Lucifer or “son of the Morning” Isaiah 14:12) thought he was thwarting that plan, but why would God let him in the Garden if it weren’t to entice Adam and Eve to fall. This is a tough doctrine unless you pair the Bible with the Book of Mormon. Pretty much impossible actually for Mormonism to make any sense unless you are willing to do that. I am guessing you are not willing to do that so the “agree to disagree” statement is where it ends.

          • Jerry Sutton

            Cain and Able were brothers. God created the Heavens and all things! So where did Satan come from?

          • vicnicholls

            Ezekiel 28:13.

          • Stuart McHardy

            I would suggest that if you asked any adherent to LDS doctrine about attaining godhood, they would all say it is unfathomable, but that the idea of eternal progression, of learning all that our Father in Heaven has come to know, is daunting, but gives meaning and hope to eternities. Sitting around on a cloud strumming a harp sounds rather dull to me. I’d rather be moving forward,learning new things, surrounded by family. That’s the essence of LDS theology on the eternities.

            I am not sure what is so offensive about the LDS doctrine that we were all spirit children of our Father, and that we are/were all once together as spiritual offspring. So what if Lucifer and Jesus were brothers. You and I were all there too. Jesus as our older brother. That is offensive? What did Jehovah say to Jeremiah about pre-mortal life, and some idea that there was a plan, with some being chosen for special missions? Or, is that too obscure to be equal with all other verses of the Bible? Which is it – we recognize all of it, or just the parts that fit your preconceptions?

          • vicnicholls

            It is an offense against God to go against His statements and His will. Saying Lucifer and Jesus are brothers puts evil on the same level as Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross as the perfect substition. Romans 10:9 is all we need to know. None of this “doctrine” is in the Bible OR it goes against accepted doctrine for years. We were warned in the Bible that in the last days – Hebrews 13:9, I Timothy 4:1-3 – that seducing spirits would happen and people would come in the name of Christ but truely weren’t.

          • Stuart McHardy

            Logic is a challenge, I guess? So, the spiritual creation of all of us as brothers, and Jesus and Lucifer from the same source, before Lucifer made his decision and plotted, is a stain on Jesus? Where did Lucifer come from? He had no free will, ever, but was from the instant of his being, evil, and thus a relation via creation to Jesus is blasphemous? Others sins or perditions are by relation damning?

          • glcsprince

            I don’t know anything about the planet, but please explain Romans 8:16-17. “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.”

            This is our understanding of our relationship with with our Father in Heaven, that we can be heirs together with God (and with Christ which certainly suggests that they are two separate beings), ‘that we may be also glorified together.” I’m just wondering what part of that scripture in the bible is contrary to the Bible. Does not an heir receive that which belongs to his/her predecessor? In this case, everyone is glorified together if it so be that we suffer with Him!

          • Brandon Stephenson

            The whole Jesus and Lucifer being brothers is every Christian church’s doctrine if they believe the Bible. That teaching comes from the Bible. Isaiah 14:12-20. Who created Lucifer? God did. Who created the rest of us? God did. Christ is the first born of all (Colossians 1:15) so that would make all of us a “brother” of Lucifer. But he is not our brother now, nor of Christ, as Lucifer fell from heaven and became Satan. We do not teach that Satan and Christ are brothers. In the pre-life yes, but not after Satan left the family of God taking many with him.

        • robert boe

          After all you can do and then you have to pay God back

          • Franklin Warner

            Hey Robert,

            Not exactly sure about your quote, “pay God back.” We believe Grace and atonement cover all our sins and short comings. As mentioned above though, as taught by James, faith without works is dead. Our service to others is an expression of God’s grace working through us, not an attempt to earn our salvation.

            I’m perfectly okay with having a polite and honest discussion with you, however, I will not waste either of our time if this is where you vomit anti-Mormon propaganda that discounts my faith or relationship with Christ.

            I am not particularly interested in debating doctrine. If I have to make a judgement about someone’s faith (regardless of some of the oddities I feel they may hold as doctrine) I tend to follow the guidelines listed in Gal 5:22-23

            May God bless and keep you!

        • Joe Dokes

          “May our Father bless and keep you.”

          You can’t mean that. Smith said all existing denominations and their beliefs in his day were hopelessly corrupted, which is why the angel purportedly revealed to him the golden plates.

          Nothing has changed on that point — anyone today who follows those beliefs is likewise STILL just as corrupted and on their way to destruction by Smith’s standard, precisely because they’re not Mormon.

          That’s not my opinion. That’s what your prophet said.

          Make up your mind how you’re going to view non-Mormons but don’t be dishonest and pretend there’s some kind of universal salvation at work here. You can’t call for God’s blessing on those your prophet said are hopelessly blinded and deceived, any more than Beck can have honestly considered Graham a true brother (or vice versa).

          • Franklin Warner

            As mentioned numerous times I tend not to argue doctrine because of responses like the one above, but hey, it’s Monday….

            1) it was not an angel, but God and Jesus Christ who revealed (so we can skip Gal 1:8-10)
            2) things being corrupt goes back to my point of how Christians of N. Smith’s day used the Bible to attack each other instead of reaching out to the lost (isn’t it nice how something’s never change?)
            3) our church acknowledges the salvation of other Christian denominations (if you have watched general conference anytime in the last 10 years you would have seen that).
            4) I offer a blessing and you call me delusional….

            So by all means, keep taking things out of context, ascribing things to a faith you seem to know only about via anti-Mormon websites, and insulting people.

            Just one question for you? How many Mormons have you convinced to leave their faith? Or for that matter, how many non-Christians have you converted?

            Or more to the point, when you and I and everyone else who claims to belong to Him has to stand before Him on that day , tell me which doctrinal point is He going to judge us by?

            1 Corinthians 13

            I did not expect to change your mind and wasn’t trying to, but in either case….Have a good week, Joe.

          • Joe Dokes

            “tell me which doctrinal point is He going to judge us by?”

            You’re already judged and condemned, lest you repent (change your mind), because Paul tells us the judgment standard your asking about:

            “In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.” Romans 2:16

            That’s Christ judging according to what Paul called “my gospel,” gospel of the grace of God, which God gave to Paul. That good news, incidentally, is one the Roman Catholic church has anathematized and which Mormons do not preach, but it’s the ONLY saving good news today. THAT is how He’s going to judge ALL.

            Want to know what that good news is?

            1 Cor 15:3-4

          • Franklin Warner

            Have a good one, Joe.

          • Joe Dokes


            You’re betting your undying eternal soul on a false prophet who slandered God and His Word and sought to replace both with lies. Repent while you can…change your mind while you can. It’s appointed unto all men once to die, and there’s no second chance after death.

            Christ died for your sins (every last one), was buried, and rose the third day for your justification (Romans 4:25). Forgiveness and justification in Christ covers EVERYTHING that stands between you and God. Believe that and be saved, Franklin, before your life ends.

          • Franklin Warner

            For the record Joe, I used to be an evangelical.
            But do pray tell, where do you get the idea that Mormons don’t believe in grace, or salvation or the atonement or whatever?
            Where did you gain the power of Clairvoyance to look into my soul and come to the conclusion that I haven’t been saved and that I haven’t repented of my sins past and present?
            If you want to really know more about Mormons then go and see what we actually believe instead of repeating things you’ve read second hand from anti-Mormon websites. If you’d like to know more check out the teachings of Elders Uchtdorf and Holland. They do a very good job of explaining what we believe to people who aren’t LDS.
            I am confident of my relationship with Christ and the status of my soul. I am perfectly happy to have conversations with someone who would jointly like to help each other with our walks with Christ. However, if you want to go on one anti-Mormon screed after another then I’ll pass
            I’d prefer helping each other with our walks. If not, we’ll have a good one.
            God bless.

          • Joe Dokes

            Why do you insist on defending a man who slandered the God who cannot lie and cannot break His Word as either a liar or an incompetent? Why are you entrusting your undying eternal soul to the false teaching of such a man?

          • Franklin Warner

            Remember the part about anti-Mormon screeds?
            Again, by your words you show you know nothing about my faith aside from what second hand, out of context reports tell you.
            And for the record, my faith is not based on a man, but Christ. I begin to wonder if you’re one of those people who mistakenly think we worship J. Smith. If so that is very funny
            But somehow, you, not knowing anything about me or my faith, or what we actually believe in. seem fit to pass judgement on my soul. Hmmmmm….
            And funny, I have never heard anyone say “God is a liar”. Nor have I found all that much variance in what is taught in an evangelical church vs an LDS church. I’ve been to both and know of which I speak. Have you?

          • vicnicholls

            Joe, remember: II Thess. 2:9-12. That is what Franklin is under.

          • Joe Dokes

            I was thinking 2 Cor 4:4, but in the hopes of 2 Cor 4:6. The Gospel of grace is, itself, the power of God unto salvation. Franklin has now read it, so perhaps…someday…

            Also want to note Paul’s humility:

            “Nor did we seek praise from you or from anyone else, although as apostles of Christ we had authority to demand it.”

            I doubt seriously Paul would have stood for anyone singing hymns of thanks to him.

          • Franklin Warner

            Joe and Vic,

            Enjoy your echo chamber.

            Best of wishes

          • Stuart McHardy

            How do you know that grace is not taught and understood by practicing LDS people? I tell you plainly that it is well understood that grace is a universal facet in our lived daily, and will be generously applied when we all face our day in the hereafter. It is, however, not the ONLY factor in our standing before our Judge and Savior. This life in LDS theology is a testing ground of our humility, obedience, forebearing, dedication and devotion to God’s work, saving ourselves and trying to bring our families and friends along, and with God’s help and grace, mastering our carnal and prideful selves, grace by grace, and step by step. We sincerely believe in grace and as James taught, works, to improve and master ourselves, and to spread His gospel and teach His word.

          • Stuart McHardy

            If all Christian churches that evolved/devolved down from Papism were totally corrupt (that is not what Joseph was told) and everyone who followed or supported their teachings were hopelessly blinded and deceived, why would tens of thousands of LDS missionaries spend their own savings to proselyte among them?

            Perhaps you should stick to actual words and stay away from the hyperbole generator, and the conversation might come closer to some common ground and increased understanding, one side with the other?

      • glcsprince

        Another FALSE narrative promulgated by those ignorant of LDS doctrine. It is by God’s grace that we are saved. However, James stated that faith without works is dead. He simply states that those whip truly believe in Christ will strive to obey his commandments. Jesus said “If he love me, keep my commandments.” Lip service alone does not qualify one to be worthy of his grace.

        • vicnicholls

          We do the works because of faith, not do the works that supposedly earn us into whatever levels of the multiple kingdoms invented. So what extra commandments (like wearing underwear) are there? If we keep his commandments, how come we have Galations 3:28 but Mormons said black people were cursed and couldn’t be in the priesthood? The Bible never says they were cursed.

          • glcsprince

            Yes, because of the faith we have in the power of Christ’s atoning blood. Mormons DO NOT preach that we can earn our way. In fact, we do preach that all but the sons of perdition (John 17:12) will receive a reward commensurate with their faithfulness while on the earth (John 14:2). We will all be judged according to our commitment to Jesus Christ. The scriptures speak often about “the day of judgment.” (Read Revelation 21 about the ‘New Jerusalem and those who shall be admitted.)

            Joseph Smith ordained blacks to the priesthood. Brigham Young changed that policy which was corrected 40 years ago in 1978. In the Book of Mormon it also states in 2 Nephi 26:33 “For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come ​unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.” That is the doctrine that has been taught.

            As for the ‘underwear’, like many religions it is ceremonial clothing which does nothing more than remind those who wear them of the covenants they have made with God. Pretty simple but very powerful in its application.

            I often see the same misconceptions about the doctrine of the LDS religion continue to be used in comment sections when, if fact, they are not true. I was even told by a detractor that I didn’t know what my religion taught. I asked if they had read the Book of Mormon and they said they didn’t need to read it to know what we teach. So, I would suggest you read the Book of Mormon to find out just what it is that is taught. The main purpose of the Book of Mormon is to provide another testament of the reality and divinity of our Savior, Jesus Christ. I would think that would give Christians a motivation to read it just to see if it contradicts the Bible.

          • vicnicholls

            Reported – thanks for saying you were Mormon.

      • glcsprince

        To which Christians are you referring. Hundreds of Christian denominations exist because each was created due to disagreements in interpretation of scripture and doctrine. So which denomination is Christian? Certainly, based on your logic, because of the ‘Mormon’ interpretation of scripture, ‘Mormons’ are not Christian. So, it would then be logical that the same standard be applied to all religions who claim to be Christian. So, again, I would ask, which Christian denomination is the only one who can truly claim to be Christian?

    • Reason2012

      We cannot just read one verse and not check other verses to claim truths of God’s Word. Here are cases where people claimed to confess Christ, who prophesied in His name, cast out devils in His name, did miracles in His name – yet they’re still cast into_hell:

      Matthew 7:21-23 “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

      The Book of Mormon is very different from the gospel of the Bible. Since the Book of Mormon does not conform to the gospel of the Bible, it is NOT Christian, but condemned being a new and false gospel. Even if an angel appeared before us and preached a new gospel, they were to be accursed. So the claim an angel appeared to Joseph Smith with this new gospel is irrelevant.

      Galatians 1:8-9 “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”

      Mormonism claims Jesus had to be saved: “The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same.”
      They believe that God lives on a Planet called Kolab!
      They believe that God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children (Mormon Doctrine, p. 516).
      Mormon’s wrongly Teach that Men can become gods, and that God Himself is merely an Exalted man.
      The Founder of Mormonism, Joseph Smith— is a False Teacher, who wrongly taught that Jesus & Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.). He also taught that he (Joseph Smith) would sit in Judgment of the World. He Falsely Prophesied that Quakers lived on the Moon.
      Joseph Smith, the False Teacher, also states that after you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345-347, 354).
      Mormons believe that there is no salvation [the context is the full gospel including exaltation to Godhood] outside the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon Doctrine, p. 670).
      They wrongly believe that a plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus’ plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to “deny men their agency and to dethrone god,” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 193; Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 8).
      They also wrongly believe that Jesus’ sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, 1856, p. 247).
      They wrongly believe that Good works are necessary for salvation (Articles of Faith, p. 92).
      They wrongly believe that there is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 188).

      If people do not read God’s Word, they’re going to fall for false claims. If you do not want to be deceived by fake $20 bills, you study the real $20 bills so you know exactly what they look like. Likewise if we do not want to be deceived from God’s truth, we need to study His Word daily.

      • Brandon Stephenson

        Very heavy out of context sharing! I am Mormon and am smiling at most of what you wrote. Though most of what you said is out of context or straight falsehood (Jesus being saved?- Why would a perfect God need being saved?- Not LDS doctrine) I agree with your last paragraph about daily scripture study. Here’s a verse, “Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.” It is from The Book of Mormon. Give it a read and stop rejecting truth that continues and builds on the truths of the Old and New Testaments.

        • vicnicholls

          Tell me Mormons don’t believe (and in Mormon Scripture)

          1) that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are 3 separate beings

          2) the Nicean or Apostle’s Creed as contradictory to Scripture.

          3) that God the Father has to have a body

          4) that the Bible isn’t inerrant and always trustworthy

          5) that Christs’ death on the cross isn’t sufficient

          6) in blood atonement

          7) Africans at one time were not worth of the priesthood and why

          8) in living prophecy

          9) in the Book of Abraham and compare to Proverbs 14:5

          10) Brigham Young and Adam worship, 10 feet tall men on the moon

          11) in the false prophecies in the Doctrines and Covenants books

          12) what McConkie said about having a relationship with Christ and it being a terrible thing

          13) that father daughter incest isn’t wrong, because the Mormon God slept with his spirit daughter Mary?

          14) that the underwear protect against temptation, sin, and some believe natural disasters.

          I’d also like to know why Scripture doesn’t teach baptism of the dead (because it goes against the Bible verse of death then judgement?
          How come there is no historical support for the Book of Mormon? It discusses specific tools, animals, crops that didn’t exist in the regions at the time they were started.

          I could go on, let me know. Be nice to hear the answers, especially the Book of Abraham.

          • Stuart McHardy

            I am not going to respond line-by-line – people will believe what they want to believe, and the Book of Mormon is available easily for people to read and come to their own understanding, as moved upon by the Holy Spirit.

            I will simply refute outright your weirdest, most convoluted specious suggestions –

            I have never heard of 10′ tall creatures on the moon in any Mormon meeting or writings – there is no such belief or teaching in Mormonism;

            Neither Brigham Young, Adam, nor Joseph Smith are worshipped;

            No worthy LDS person believes incest is not wrong, or even goes into conjecture as to how the Son of God was conceived with Mary:

            There is no such teaching that Christ’s sacrifice, Atonement and crucifixion are insufficient – sufficient for what? You make no sense.

            Ditto to your embarrassing yourself with claims that Elder Bruce R. McConkie stated anything of the sort regarding a person’s relationship to Christ.

            What is Paul talking about in 1 Cor 15:29 when he talks about baptism for the dead? Or, is that not in your Bible? You said the doctrine or practice is not mentioned. Looks like it is mentioned there, plain as day. What?

            You provide no evidence of proof of prophecies recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants are false. As a simple refutation to your unfounded assertion, let me direct you and anyone else interested to Section 87, recorded as given in 1832, which openly, and correctly, prophesied the US Civil War starting in South Carolina. Pretty amazing, 29 years prior to it coming to pass, no?

            I suggest perhaps you investigate these claims on your own, and perhaps find out for yourself, as the silly, foolish presentation of ‘facts’ here would seem to have left you on a sandy foundation, perhaps tidbits you have heard someone else with some integrity issues repeating?

            Come, and see.

          • vicnicholls

            In an 1892 LDS publication under the heading “THE INHABITANTS OF THE
            MOON,” this interesting information is given by Oliver B. Huntington.
            all the great discoveries of men in the last half century have, in one
            way or another, either directly or indirectly, contributed to prove
            Joseph Smith to be a Prophet.
            “As far back as 1837, I know that he
            said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and
            that they lived to a greater age than we do — that they live generally
            to near the age of 1000 years.

            “He described the men as
            averaging near six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in
            something near the Quaker style. “In my Patriarchal blessing, given by
            the father of Joseph the Prophet, in Kirtland, 1837, I was told that I
            should preach the gospel before I was 21 years of age; that I should
            preach the gospel to the inhabitants upon the islands of the sea, and to
            the inhabitants of the moon, even the planet you can now behold with
            your eyes.” (The Young Woman’s Journal, published by the Young Ladies’
            Mutual Improvement Associations of Zion, 1892, vol. 3, pp. 263-64)

            Huntington also told of founding prophet/president Joseph Smith’s teaching regarding the moon:
            inhabitants of the moon are more of a uniform size than the inhabitants
            of the earth, being about 6 feet in height. They dress very much like
            the quaker style and are quite general in style, or fashion of dress.
            They live to be very old; coming generally, near a thousand years.” This
            is the description of them as given by Joseph the Seer, and he could
            “see” whatever he asked the father in the name of Jesus to see. The
            Journal of Oliver B. Huntington, Volume 3, Page 166

            Here’s Brigham Young’s statement:
            Oliver B. Huntington recorded in his diary:
            inhabitants of the moon are more of a uniform size than the inhabitants
            of the earth, being six feet in height. They dress very much like the
            Quaker style and are quite general in style or fashion of dress. They
            live to be very old; coming generally near a thousand years. This is the
            description of them as given by Joseph [Smith] the Seer, and he could
            see whatever he asked the Father in the name of Jesus to see” – Journal
            of Oliver B. Huntington, Vol 2, p 166, emphasis added from Brigham

          • vicnicholls

            What about the book of Abraham and the ethnic issues of DNA for the North American peoples, and the descriptions in Mormon literature about animals, etc. proven to not be there? Why aren’t you addressing those because they ARE the biggest issues?

            The New Testament Church didn’t do baptism for the dead, Paul didn’t teach it. This custom was introduced into the professing Christian world about AD 150 by Marcion, a man who created his own religion and established his own church in Rome in AD 144.

            The Bible clearly shows that, before a person may be baptized, he must first repent (Acts 2:38) and believe (Mark 16:16; Acts 16:31, 33). The dead are not able to repent or believe, because “the dead know nothing” (Ecclesiastes 9:5).

            Lastly, the reason why you attack me personally is due to the fact that these and other questions I can bring up show the discrepancies in Mormon circles.

          • Stuart McHardy

            So, when has it been proven that animals, tools, etc., referred to in the Book of Mormon did not exist? It seems to me that all sorts continues to be discovered, leaving “proof” in your desired end impossible.

            The dead, whose spirits are waiting in paradise, are unable to be taught? Wow, billions of people were not afforded the chance in mortality to learn of, or accept or reject Christ, no? Doesn’t that make our Heavenly Father unjust, and a respecter of persons? A perfect judgment cannot be rendered on someone who has never been exposed to the facts, huh? Curious, this characterization of God wrought by men, men who not perfectly know God’s ways.

          • vicnicholls

            Go find it and report back to us. I’m not going for this deal of ‘prove it to me’ any more so you can take the light off of the problems with Mormon doctrine. Bring us back the data as I did. Maybe the research will help you in what God is trying to tell you thru us: the doctrine is not consistent with His Word.

          • Brandon Stephenson

            So Christ preached to the dead in Prison so they could just stay the way they were? 1 Peter 4:6. We believe God wants all of His children to make it, so we do vicarious work for the dead. Then they can accept it if they choose to or not. I love the “Bible clearly shows” statement. If there is any book taken and retaken out of context to “clearly show” something as true, it is the Bible. That is why a “second” witness is needed to back up the truths of the first. The Book of Mormon is that second witness. Read it and see for yourself. Please… pretty please…

          • vicnicholls

            Another non Christian. Thanks for being honest. Time to report trolls. Bye.

          • Brandon Stephenson

            Another so called “Christian” not being so Christian. If your version of Christianity isn’t mine than I guess you win. Feel better now? I’ll go re-read the Sermon on the Mount and figure out where your Christianity fits in.

          • Brandon Stephenson

            It is hard to not get frustrated and take offence when one’s faith is attacked. Good work Stuart.

          • vicnicholls

            So you agree with the Mormon doctrine and not the Bible?

          • Brandon Stephenson

            Mormon doctrine is all based on the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, The Doctrine and Covenants, as well as living Prophets who receive revelation daily/weekly/monthly/yearly. I know it is hard to accept but Mormon’s are different than your view. You don’t need to have our view, just quit saying we are not Christian. That is very insulting as Jesus Christ is the center of my life. I love Him and worship Him. It is in His name I pray daily. I have made covenants with Him and the Father at baptism that I seek to live. You keep on this non-Christian thing. “I do not think it means what you think it means”. I have yet to think or refer to you as a non-Christian and won’t. So stop judging please.

          • Joe Dokes

            “Neither Brigham Young, Adam, nor Joseph Smith are worshipped;”

            There’s an old Momron hymn, maybe not used anymore, where Joseph Smith was praised and thanked alongside Christ. You know the one I’m referring to?

          • Brandon Stephenson

            Hymn 27. We Thank Thee Oh God for a Prophet. Thanked and praised is a lot different from worshiped and covenanted with. I will thank Joseph Smith all my life and into the next for restoring the Gospel of Jesus Christ and God’s priesthood authority to the earth. I would not have come to know and love my Savior Jesus Christ if Joseph Smith had not been the mouthpiece of God to restore truth, authority, organization, ordinances, and give another testament of Christ called the Book of Mormon.

          • Joe Dokes

            Whereas the apostle Paul, Christ’s chosen to speak to we Gentiles, said he’s the least of all saints and, in actuality, nothing.

            Odd discrepancy in your focus on Smith.

          • Brandon Stephenson

            Not a discrepancy, just praise for doing all he did for us. I praise Paul for waking up to realize he was fighting against the Lord. He was 100% sure he was doing what was right in fighting against Christianity, only to turn it around. I see the same thing happening one day to those who dis Joseph Smith but will eventually give him the credit for all he did. We shall see.

          • Joe Dokes

            Paul said he’s least of all saints, unworthy of praise or glory, with all praise and glory to go to Christ.

            You’re glorying in men, in flesh.


          • Brandon Stephenson

            Not sad. Glad. I follow God’s prophets, past and present. Today I follow a living prophet who receives revelation from a living God. Any sadness would come from being in the dark spiritually, with a closed heaven and no communication from God, arguing with a crazy Mormon online with no end purpose.

    • NeoBlaise

      And Mormonism teaches that Jesus, as God’s Son, came by way of natural procreation. God the Father sired Jesus with God’s daughter, Mary (Jesus’ sister), to give Jesus a “tabernacle” of flesh and bones. Do you believe that, too, Robin? If so, can you show me that from the Bible?

      • glcsprince

        The church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints has no such teachings. We believe in the explanation in the New Testament given by the angel who appeared before Mary. Anything different is simply conjecture.

  • Bot

    Mormons believe in the Christianity of the New Testament era. Catholics and Protestants believe in Fourth Century Creedal Christianity. Here are the differences:

    1. Baptism by immersion by the father (who has the authority) of the family
    2. Lay clergy
    3. Baptism by proxy for deceased ancestors
    4. God and Jesus organized the world, rather than creatio ex nihilo.
    5. Belief in a tripartite anthropomorphic Godhead
    6. Belief in theosis or divinization (that faithful Christians can acquire god-like attributes).
    7. Belief in sacred esoteric ordinances which allow faithful Christians to ascend to the highest heaven. Cyril, Bishop of Jerusalem, administered these ordinances until 350 AD.
    8. Belief in Eternal Marriage, as recorded in the Book of the Apostle Philip.

    Which is the true Christianity? New Testament Era or Creedal?

    • meugene

      Since this is called a “Christian News” blog, I’m concerned that those who are “voting up” this post are confused by what “Bot” calls “New Testament Christianity.” What he or she is calling “Creedal Christianity” is literally and historically the Word of God, as received and recorded in the Old and New Testaments.

      In contrast, what Bot means by “New Testament Era” is what Mormons call “Another Testament of Jesus Christ” (The Book of Mormon) which the Apostle Paul soundly rejects and condemns:

      “But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth ANOTHER Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive ANOTHER spirit, which ye have not received, or ANOTHER GOSPEL, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.” (2 Corinthians 11:3-4).

      “But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them…For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.” (2 Corinthians 11:12-14).

      Tragically, Joseph Smith was such a man, who received “another gospel” which is not. He was deceived, because he failed to test the spirits. That is why today, we must test and verify all things, because “many false prophets have gone into the world” (1 John 4:1).

    • Stuart McHardy

      To clarify, on the first point only – baptism is performed by holders of at least the office of priest within the Aaronic (or preparatory) Priesthood, and it can be performed by any worthy holder of that office, as chosen by the convert/child of age. There is no practice or doctrine that stipulates it be the father of the individual.

      • vicnicholls

        When Christ died, the temple veil split in two. People could now go directly to Him through Jesus Christ (Hebrews 4:14-16). There are now no earthly mediators between God and man as existed in the Old Testament priesthood (1 Timothy 2:5). So this teaching goes against Biblical doctrine.

        • Stuart McHardy

          Interesting – “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”

          So, you and all yours throw out the first ordinance, that which Christ himself suffered to set an example, despite no need for the cleansing power of proper baptism?

          No wonder a friend of mine got visibly upset when I asked upon what authority his pastor/minister acted.

  • james blue

    Glenn Beck can “choke up” on cue

  • NeoBlaise

    Rather than refute all the blather in the article, just ask yourself the following questions:

    1. Do I believe that God is an exalted human being, who resides on a planet somewhere in the universe that orbits a star called Kolob?

    2. Do I believe that Jesus is the product of an incestuous relationship between his exalted human father, who is now a god, and his daughter, Mary?

    3. Do I believe that if I marry the right person, in the right religious edifice, by the right religious authority, and if I keep ALL the laws of God, that I can go on to become a god myself one day?

    4. Do I believe that Satan is the literal offspring of God, with Jesus as his elder brother?

    5. Do I believe that one day, Jesus is coming back to Independence, Missouri, where a Temple will be erected, and rule the earth from there as the “New Jerusalem”?

    If you emphatically answered “NO!” to each of these questions, and yet claim to be a Christian, please remember that Glenn Beck and Mormonism does believe in those things and wants to impose those eccentricities upon Christians and Christianity, even though they completely contradict everything biblical Christianity has taught for more than 2,000 years.

    Mormonism, in other words, is not Christian, which means that neither is Glenn Beck, regardless of what Billy Graham or anyone else said or says.

    • Mahonri Moriancum

      1. We believe that “as we are, God once was and as God is, we may become.” As flawed human beings in a fallen world of course it would be hard to believe that we could eventually, actually inherit what Christ has (godhood) Christ promised.

      2. We believe that Jesus Christ is the literal, physical, begotten Son of God the Father as it states in the Bible.

      3. We believe in partaking worthily in the ordinances of the gospel such as baptism. We believe in eternal marriages as that which is sealed on earth is also sealed in Heaven. We believe that some of these ordinances as sacred as they are must be performed in the temple of God. We also believe these ordinances must be performed by those of authority by the laying on of the hands like Christ taught us in the Bible.

      4. We believe that Lucifer, who is the “son of the morning” or one of Heavenly Fathers first born spiritual sons (Isaiah 14:12) was Christs spiritual brother. Christ was also a “Star of dawn” or one of Gods firstborn spiritual children.

      5. We believe that Christ will return and rule and reign. And by modern revelation we also believe that he will reign from New Jerusalem which will be located in Missouri.

      The difference between mainstream Christianity and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is modern revelation, additional scriptures and a clarification of those things that were removed from or translated incorrectly in the Bible.

      The Jews had a very hard time believing that Christ is who He said He was. They were so set in their thinking that they denied Him and killed him. Not unlike mainstream Christianity today…they cannot believe that God would open the Heavens again to call a prophet again. That He would restore His authority. That He would give His children more scripture to testify of His Son. That He would again guide His children in this time when there are over 175 different Christian denominations who all interpret the Bible differently who ridicule and abuse each other.

      They deny that God would do these things “again”.

      They deny the fact that “God is the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.” Hebrews 13:8

      • vicnicholls

        and that’s exactly why Mormons aren’t Christian. Too much non Biblical stuff. I don’t have a problem with Mormons, as long as they don’t call themselves Christian because they’re not.

        • Brandon Stephenson

          Wow. What a way to bury your head in the sand and ignore truth. Similar to the Jews who ignored the Messiah when He so obviously stood right before them with all the Old Testament evidence given. Every response Mahonri gave was Biblical. Mormonism started because God continues what was in the Old and New Testaments of Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon is Another Testament of Jesus Christ. Why would you push away more truth about Jesus Christ? Usually it is because people really don’t fully believe and aren’t secure in the truths they do have. Your comments tell everyone more about you than it does about Mormons.

          • vicnicholls

            Ok, go ahead and using the Mormon “Scriptures”, can you answer the questions I posted above?

            Book of Mormon teaches the American continent was settled by ancient near eastern people. Genetic, historical evidenc and archeology say that is wrong. Native Americans aren’t descendants of ancient Israelites. How is there so many parellels between Joseph Smiths’ version on this compared to Ethan Smiths’ View of the Hebrews, published 1823. BoM says that dark skin is a sign of being cursed. Why was II Nephi 30:6 changed from “white” to “pure”. JoD vol. 10, BY said that if a white man mixes his blood with the seed of Cain (black people are cursed as sons of Cain by JS) the penalty by the law of God, is death on the spot. Didn’t the first 3 of the 11 witnesses to the gold plates, get booted out and called garbage by JS? Matter has always existed by Mormon doctrine (I’m looking for where I saw that). One of my favorites that I remember from a video about the plurality of wives, then you are d***ed. How about the sacred temple rites?

            I have a couple in Utah I need to get a hold of. Stay tuned for some more questions.

          • Stuart McHardy

            Tell us, please, if Lucifer – nee Satan – was not a spirit child of our Heavenly Father, one who used his free will to rebel, and to seduce and lead others astray, where did he come from? Is he not real? Does he not have real powers? A mere figment, a creation of mankind, out of fear, or conjecture?

          • vicnicholls

            See my response elsewhere. That tells you what the Bible states about Satan. Nowhere does it state that he is the brother of Jesus, child of God, as Mormon doctrine states.

          • Stuart McHardy

            I did not see your response that says that the Bible definitively says where Lucifer sprang from, and that it was clearly not as one of our spiritual siblings, a child of God who chose his own path and sought glories that were not his to wrest.

          • vicnicholls

            See below statements.

  • Robin Egg

    This is my response to those who replied to my post below. In the article, it does not state what other things Rev. Graham and Glenn talked about. I have no idea and neither do you. I am fully aware of what Latter Day Saints teach and I agree that it is not biblical. I am not defending Mormonism, I am defending Rev. Graham’s assessment of his private conversation he had with Glenn.

    Upon Rev. Graham’s death, I have witnessed keyboard warriors using anything they can to attack Rev. Graham and I refuse partake of that. And it grieves me to see so many others that do.

    Again, only God knows the heart, and at the end, the individual will stand and be judged by the True Judge, Jesus Christ, the One and Only Who is Worthy.

    • vicnicholls

      We take issue with his theology and how it contradicts Scripture. That is not an attack on him. It is the responsibility of one who purports to be a leader in Christianity to follow the manual (aka Scripture) and exegete as a Shepherd is supposed to, given Christ and the Disciples examples. This is a joy to Christ. His Word is being upheld. Matthew 5:10-16.

      Btw, the Bible was given to us so that we can see the heart by the works and how we will be judged by Him.

      • Robin Egg

        I have no issue with you…:) You are always respectful and kind. Thank you for your sincere reply. God bless.

    • HpO

      This was Glenn Beck’s faith-based political interest in chumming up with your buddy. Feel better now, like, Phew? Beck only pitched to Graham, see, “We must come together. … While none of us can sacrifice what we believe as an individual, we must stand together with those who believe in God and that God endows each individual with the right of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”

      (Source: True Discernment, February 23, 2011, “Glenn Beck Meets with Billy Graham!?!?!”.)

    • Amen!

    • meugene

      It is not unkind or unloving to point out that Rev. Dr. Billy Graham engaged in active ecumenical activity with the Roman Catholic Church since the early 1960s. The gospel of Christ that he once soundly proclaimed in the late 40s and through the 50s became watered down to the point that at his Crusades, lapsed Catholics were being sent to Roman Catholic priests and nuns for counseling, and those of Jewish descent to Orthodox Rabbis for counseling. One can only imagine that were these crusades taking place today, Dr. Graham would have sent Mormons to their Bishops, and Muslims to their Imams in order to “get right with God.”

      Stating these facts is not attacking Billy Graham; it is warning believers of the apostasy of the church, which is a primary sign of the times in these Last Days. Tragically, Graham’s testimony to Larry King on his program seen by millions was no better than that of Joel Osteen a week later, who also gave a free pass not only to Mormons, but to Muslims, Jews, and Hindus. May God help us if our beloved Christian leaders are unable to boldly proclaim the gospel on national television, but instead water it down with a false love that is not borne out of the fear of God, but a fear of rejection by man.

    • HpO

      According to Oxford Dictionaries:

      “Definition of keyboard warrior in English: … A person who makes abusive or aggressive posts on the Internet, typically one who conceals their true identity.”

      Which makes you one, then. By definition, I mean.

    • Joe Dokes

      “Again, only God knows the heart, and at the end, the individual will stand and be judged by the True Judge, Jesus Christ, the One and Only Who is Worthy.”

      But we can judge teachers and preachers by what comes out of their mouths, Beck and Graham included. We are commanded to judge by testing ALL things and holding on to that which is true. So…

      The LDS from Joseph Smith onward is founded on one foundational belief: that the Bible had been so thoroughly corrupted (“plain and precious truths” removed, as they put it) that God HAD to replace it or the knowledge of salvation would be lost to man forever. Mormons say He did restore it with the Book of Mormon and other allegedly inspired writings.

      Problem: the Bible says that God cannot err, cannot lie, and that His Word will not return to Him void. What He says will come to pass, WILL come to pass. This gives the assurance that the Scriptures cannot be corrupted and were not corrupted, proving the fundamental claim of Mormonism – it’s entire reason for being – to be false, ELSE GOD IS A LIAR.

      Besides which, since Mormons claim the same God who did inspire the Bible later gave BoM, etc, to Smith, then that also proves the God of the Mormons is not the God of the Bible whose word cannot be corrupted. If the Word of the God of the Bible DID IN FACT become so corrupted so that the knowledge of salvation was lost until it was restored
      through Smith, how can that same God be trusted to have gotten it right with the Mormon books? GOD CANNOT BE TRUSTED IF THE FOUNDATIONAL TRUTH OF MORMONISM IS TRUE

      The entire structure of Mormon theology is shot full of holes from the get-go, thanks to the claims – not of Bible believers – but of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and their own founders.

      To judge that as what it is is what the Bible warns all believers to do.

      • Franklin Warner

        And Catholics venorate the saints
        And Baptist deny the baptism of the Holy Spirit
        And I’m sure if I knew your denomination I could point to some area of doctrine I could say “wasn’t pure”.
        The question I have for you is: “How does any of that bring one person closer to God or one soul to Christ?”
        The problem with people from one denomination yelling at people from another denomination telling them that they are wrong and the other doing the exact same thing is that people who have no relationship with Christ will agree with BOTH of you. They will wash all of our doctrine down the drain and call our faith a bad idea filled with conflicting/contradictory thoughts.
        I would rather lose an argument to you, I much prefer not to argue with you than become a stumbling block to someone who doesn’t know Christ.
        But for fun, let’s assume you’re right and my being a Mormon is, at best, a mistake. Let’s assume for a moment I’m a lost soul.
        Now let’s juxtapose that onto some of things Mormons hear from “real Christians” everyday as is displayed in the comment section of this story.

        Mormons aren’t Christians
        Mormons are cultist
        Mormons are brain washed
        Mormons are going to Hell
        Our leadership is composed of liars and charlatens

        Really…? Do you honestly think that after insulting our faith, our relationship with Christ, our intelligence, and our leadership that any of us would actually listen to anything any of you have to say to us?

        Really?!?! If you are interested in “saving the souls” of Mormons perhaps it might be more profitable if you started from a place of love and not one that comes across as being self righteous and hateful, because, quite frankly, that’s exactly how it sounds.

      • Brandon Stephenson

        I agree with you that it is black or white with the Bible being “it” or else “the foundation of Mormonism is true.” That is why the Book of Mormon is the “keystone” of the arch of Mormonism. Either it is true or Mormonism is not. If the Book of Mormon is true, which I promise you it is, then the Bible is not “it” only and thus God continues to do what He did all through the Biblical history, call new prophets and add to His word. It is similar to C.S. Lewis’s claim about Christ: “A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God…”
        I made my choice to read the Book of Mormon and ask God if it was true. 16 million + others have as well. Either it is or it is not. Your all caps sentence should read, “The Bible alone cannot be trusted if the foundation of truth of Mormonism is true”. But God can be trusted. So ask Him. If He were to come down and tell you that the Bible was not enough on its own, would you trust Him? Or would you ignore Him and just hold onto your Bible? The Jews at the time of Christ just held onto their books of Moses and missed God Himself coming down and telling them.

        • Joe Dokes

          Maybe you’re not old enough to remember this but once upon a time, not too many years ago, the
          LDS would buy 30 second TV ads offering free Bibles delivered to your
          door. When the two sharp young men in black and white rode up, they’d give
          you the Bible but then ask for a chance to tell you why what you REALLY
          needs is BOM…because the Bible they just delivered to you is
          unreliable and insufficient…Joseph Smith said so. That tactic was, at best, bait and switch. At
          worst, demonically deceptive (it was both, actually).

          So either you’re not paying attention or you’re pretending not to in order to obfuscate the real point here:

          If Mormonism, as Smith conceived it, is true, then the Bible is unreliable and insufficient.

          If the Bible is unreliable and insufficient, the God who inspired the Bible is unreliable because He either

          (a) allowed His Word to be corrupted, or

          (b) could not stop His Word from being corrupted.

          Either way, if what Mormons say happened to the Bible really did happen, the God of the Bible cannot be trusted. Period.

          Here’s where your side gets really loony:

          Mormons insist the same God who gave BoM, etc, is the same God of the Bible.

          Uh…you have a BIG problem there.

          That means if Mormonism is true, Mormonism itself cannot be trusted because the God of the Bible – purportedly the God of Mormonism – cannot be trusted.

          Joseph Smith painted you all into a logical corner that you cannot get out of, and knowing that, I expect your next post will be on some list of irrelevant matters because the above logic is irrefutable.

          • Brandon Stephenson

            God came before the Bible. He trusts in imperfect men on earth. How can you possibly think the Bible wasn’t corrupted? Archeology and every “left out” text tells you that. I love the good scholars and monks who did there best to preserve the Bible, but soooo mush is missing as witnessed by the Bible itself. You have not given the Book of Mormon a chance. Nor do I expect you to, thus you will forever disagree with anything I or any Mormon says or believes. That is fine, I just don’t understand the need to trash a man and a Church that does not make sense to you. The way to know you’ve won a debate? Recognize when your apponent can only call names and insult you. That is definitely the feeling I get from you. You don’t understand how Mormons could possibly believe what we do. So just hold onto your bible and love it, then if God comes and tells you there is more, please believe Him over what your Bible says.

  • Lydia Church

    Alas, one of the many compromises that lead to the downfall of orthodoxy.
    Next thing, it’s ‘all paths lead to God,’ (no, they don’t) and any Jesus that
    you can construct, even if He is not God the Son, but fits your comfort zone.

    “Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.” 2 John 1; 9

  • HpO

    FYI: Here’s a bit of background to the infamous Billy Graham / Glenn Beck rendezvous.

    According to True Discernment, February 23, 2011, “Glenn Beck Meets with Billy Graham!?!?!”:

    “Conservative radio and television host Glenn Beck met with evangelist Billy Graham last week, Beck said on his show. ‘Just spent 3 amazing hours with Billy Graham at his mountain top home in SC. His son Franklin joined my wife and me for a talk and prayer,’ Beck tweeted on February 19. … Beck had wanted to meet with Graham before his ‘Restoring Honor’ rally … According to Glenn, Billy Graham was probably the only other person who had tried to do something on the scale of what Glenn was hoping to accomplish. … ‘Two weeks ago as I have been struggling with some ideas and some things that I am working on for the future and I am trying to get clarity again, I thought of Billy Graham. When the phone rang and they said the Reverend feels it’s time to meet, I met with him. We had an hour scheduled. It lasted three hours,’ Glenn said. … Beck gave his impressions saying … [that the two] ‘must come together. … While none of us can sacrifice what we believe as an individual, we must stand together with those who believe in God and that God endows each individual with the right of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.'”

  • How can anyone deny the divinity of Christ and claim to be a Christian? I love Billy Graham but he was wrong on this one.

  • BuckeyePhysicist

    Always err on the side of grace and forgiveness. This is a beautiful reminder for us all. Who are we mortal humans to say who is a Christian and who is not?

    • vicnicholls

      John 7:24 says we are to do so. The Bereans made judgements based on Scripture and were considered “more wise”.

    • HpO

      Scripture, please, c/w chapter & verse for this Christ gospel of yours of, and I quote, “Always err on the side of grace and forgiveness.”

      Did Jesus “always err on the side of grace and forgiveness”? Was it a mistake, then, His “grace and forgiveness” for me, who’s definitely worse off than brother Billy Graham, no doubt?

      • BuckeyePhysicist

        “Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. For with the judgment you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.” (Matthew 7:1-2)

        • vicnicholls

          John 7:24, II Timothy 2:25, 3:16, Titus 2:1.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            None of those verses give someone the right to pass judgment. If someone tells you they are a follower of Christ do you not believe them?

          • vicnicholls

            “Stop judging by outward appearances, and start judging justly.” “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness”. I’ll let you tell God He’s wrong. Just give me time to put on a rubber suit.

          • BuckeyePhysicist

            I don’t disagree with any of this.

            Do you find it hard to forgive others?

          • vicnicholls


          • Joe Dokes

            It depends on what gospel they’ve believed to save them from their sins. There are MANY false gospels in the world today but only one true gospel.

        • HpO

          That means when Jesus asks you, What do you understand from my telling you, “Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.” (Matthew 7:1-5)

          Your answer is, Oh, oh I know that one from Sunday School. Or was it from a book I spent my money on at a Christian bookstore? No matter, for basically all you’re telling me to do is, “Aways err on the side of grace and forgiveness”.

  • glcsprince

    Reverend Graham’s approach was truly more Christlike than many of the people who claim to be Christians. We are to follow Christ’s example. When the woman who was caught in the very act of adultery was brought to Jesus he told her accusers that he who was without sin cast the first stone. When they left, coming to the self-realization they were not perfect, he told the women that he didn’t condemn her, but to go and sin no more. Jesus was the only perfect person on earth who could have passed judgment, but instead forgave her. He knew her. He knew she had the capacity to repent. Jesus does not judge us while we are on this earth. Judgment day is reserved for another day after we leave this earth. Instead, he says he will forgive us if we will believe in him and repent. He continually pleads for us to us our moral agency to come unto Him. He is our biggest cheerleader and is constantly inviting us to hearken to His word. While on earth he often associated with those the pharisees considered sinners. His response was that he came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. He commands us to forgive others 7 time 70 times. He loves all His children where they are in life, but also loves them enough to encourage them to become better and reach their divine potential. He commands that we judge not lest we will be judged by God in a like manner. We are commanded to have charity, or the love of God in our hearts. Jesus says why do we consider the mote in our brother’s eye when we cannot see clearly due to the beam which is in our own eye.

    Yes, Reverend Graham’s approach was more Christlike than most who proclaim to be Christian. I have judged and condemned as well in the past. Over many years I have learned that what Christ wants us to do is to love all of his creations. We can certainly discern when others’ behavior in not in harmony with Christ’s teachings, but we can, like Christ, increase our love toward those people. Why, because Christ gives all His children a chance to repent and change. How can they change if they do not feel our love? Just like Christ did not condemn the woman caught in adultery, we should not condemn those who struggle to keep God’s commandments. Instead, like Christ, we should love them and encourage them with gentleness and meekness. They must first know we care for their salvation in a loving and charitable way before they will respond appropriately.

    • NCOriolesFan

      Billy Graham was the epitome of a preacher, the epitome of a Christian with the personalization of Jesus Christ. Graham’s messages were spot-on, every word spoken by the Holy Spirit.

      • HpO

        Your definition of “the epitome of a preacher”, then, is one who gets away with being in oneness with Mormons and Mormonism. “Epi”-something else, more like.

    • HpO

      Interesting. Not a remark on Mormons or Mormonism. And you call yourself being “Christlike”?

      • glcsprince

        The whole reply was in reference to Reverend Graham’s Christlike love for all of God’s creations, even when he disagrees with their doctrine or behavior. It should be assumed it would also apply to Mormons as well. Why would not specifically mentioning Mormons or Mormonism mean disqualifies someone from being Christlike? I guess I am finding it difficult to follow your thought process. Are “Christians” supposed to hate those with whom they disagree?

        • HpO

          Your “whole reply was in reference to” NOTHING that was staying on topic with this article. Instead you’re attacking a straw man. “A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent’s argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent” – such as:

          (1) “Graham’s Christlike love for all of God’s creations”;

          (2) “not [about] Mormons or Mormonism”;

          (3) “Christians … hat[ing] those with whom they disagree”.

  • vicnicholls

    Bible believing Christians – several of the commenters have been reported on this page. Please pray for them. Its not hard to figure out who is trying to cause trouble and who isn’t of the below. Obviously some will not take to reading their own material and comparing it to God’s inerrant Word. Prayer.

  • TomMars

    What a world it would be if we had less people who define Christianity as something to be thought, and a lot more who define Christianity as something to be done. Far too many people “believe in Jesus” but not enough to actually implement and live His most inconvenient commandments in their lives. They decide they are saved by believing a certain way, so they can mostly sit back and critique the beliefs of others. They show that they believe Christianity is much more believing the right thing, not doing the right thing. Are Mormons really condemned because they believe in the power of Christ to lift them to be like Him and that works are required to demonstrate their faith?
    Beck and Graham, for all their imperfections and potential theological and political differences, seem to be more interested in Christianity as an action-word. I would rather live in Hell with a group of people who live life with virtue, obedience, charity, and respect, than a group of people who call themselves Christians because they check a few “right-thinking” boxes but who do not strive with all their hearts to live as Christ. The more you live your life like Christ did, then the more you believe in Him, and the more Christian you really are. The Devil is a Christian if it is just a theological debate that matters because he certainly knows the answers. Let’s each try to do as Jesus would do in our virtue, forgiveness, patience, service, love of God, and study of the scriptures and prophets.
    We do not worship the Bible. We worship the one who the Bible prophets testify of. Many of the good works and testimonies of prophets and apostles are not recorded in the Bible–a small collection of the testimonies of God’s work among His children. Our lives and actions should become a new testament of Christ. We should be searching for more light and knowledge from God. We should worry a little less about attacking others who differ from us as to the level of truth they have obtained but are trying to seek and progress and better understand God just the same.

    • HpO

      I take it you’ve neither evangelized Mormons nor studied their scriptures other than their KJV bible.

    • Joe Dokes

      Do you believe the Bible where it says that – despite traditional depictions – Satan appears as an angel of light, and so his ministers transform themselves to appear as ministers of righteousness?

  • BabyDoll


  • Charles

    Isn’t the False “Prophet” Joseph Smith the guy that claimed he did more works than the Apostles and Jesus Christ himself? Isn’t this the same charleton that claims Satan and Jesus were brothers? Isn’t this the same fraud that claims you will have spirit babies on the planet Kolob? Isn’t this the same hypocrite that was a Mason? ha ha.. The fact that Mormons believe this nonsense is amazing.

    • Brandon Stephenson

      No, he is not all those things. Excepting only Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God, Joseph Smith’s work as a prophet of God has done more, for the Salvation of God’s children than any other man or prophet to ever live. Mormon’s don’t believe or teach any of what you just wrote. “Ha Ha… The fact that (non) Mormon’s believe (your repeated nonsense about Mormons) is amazing.”

      • Charles

        ** No, he is not all those things.

        Oh he’s every one of those things I just named and worse. Over and over it’s implied Jesus and Satan were brothers. No, the Angles were his brothers at one time, Jesus is a part of God himself. Big difference.

        ** Excepting only Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God

        The Jesus Mormons believe in isn’t Jesus of the Bible. The fact you accept a false prophets testimony is proof alone of this.

        ** Joseph Smith’s work as a prophet of God has done more, for the Salvation
        of God’s children than any other man or prophet to ever live.

        Right. He’s done more than Jesus, or the prophets, or the Apostles… Got it.

        **Mormon’s don’t believe or teach any of what you just wrote

        I’m afraid your religion does believe these apostasies. You just proved it by saying the False Prophet Joseph Smith did more than Jesus, Prophets, or Apostles.

        • Brandon Stephenson

          And you just proved to all on this board that you don’t read full sentences. “Excepting Jesus only”. Joseph did not do more than Christ, but yes we do believe he did more than any other Prophet or Apostle. We see him as a prophet and apostle. You see him as a phony. Joseph Smith is not a god nor savior. I am of my religion and know we don’t believe those things. You are not of my faith, therefore you do not know what my faith believes. “Afraid” may be the reason you are spouting falsehoods about Joseph Smith and Mormonism. And why not? It goes against everything you hold dear and live by. I am sorry we as Mormon’s upset you with our faith. Yours does not upset me in the least. I wish you well in your beliefs.

          • Charles

            Making the claim that I don’t know anything about your religion is a bit presumptuous isn’t it?

            Apparently, you aren’t even aware of your own doctrine:

            History of the Church, Vol. 6, pp. 408-409

            Here is your arrogant prideful false prophet Joseph Smith speaking:

            God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil–all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.

          • vicnicholls

            Charles, they’ve been doing that all over. Apparently someone thinks that you can’t have coworkers that are Mormon or that someone can read their documents or replay statements made by Mormon leaders. Not the first time I’ve seen people unaware of doctrine.

          • Charles

            Our words will always testify to the truth of who and what we are. Clearly the adulterer and mystic Joseph Smith Jr. did this over and over. My Aunt and Uncle were Mormons.

          • Brandon Stephenson

            Adulterer and mystic? Wow. That is offensive and not true. Those who make accusation against those who are innocent of said accusation usually are guilty of that exact accusation.

          • Charles

            ** Those who make accusation against those who are innocent of said accusation usually are guilty of that exact accusation.

            Weak.. Very weak.

          • vicnicholls

            Charles what do you expect? They’ve yet to answer a ton of facts on here we’ve given them. I think the book of Abraham would be one of my faves to explain away. They have to do this because the stark reality of the errors hurts too badly.

          • Charles

            They won’t sufficiently answer those questions either. There’s no defense for them, because of pride… They would have to admit they got duped. Unfortunately, they wish to hold the truth in unrighteousness.

          • Brandon Stephenson

            It is the “arrogance of Mormonism” and I am sorry to have come across that way. I get frustrated when others tell me what I believe and it is not even close. The HC quote is still true about Joseph as his “turn” to restore the “Church” will not end like all other dispensations have, that being in Apostasy and loss of priesthood authority form the earth. His mentioning of Jesus is as the “restorer” of His Church in His day, which fell due to the death of the Apostles and loss of that priesthood authority. Every well meaning Christian faith has picked up the fragments of that Church and has done their best puting it back together. Joseph has every right to boast knowing this “last time” (Church of Jesus Christ of “Latter-Day” Saints) will not end like those previous from Adam, Enoch, Abraham, Moses, and sadly even that of Christ and the Apostles. Each ended with apostasy and loss of authority from God on earth. The Catholic church did its best to hang on to that authority but ultimately it was lost due to no Apostle left to ordain another Apostle. We believe Peter, James, and John came as ministering angels and restored that authority to Joseph Smith. I know this may not be acceptable to you or fit in your belief window, but it is what we believe. I know it because I live it and teach it everyday.

          • Charles

            Fortunately, the Church of Jesus Christ (His true Church) is very much alive and well. Jesus established his Church and Satan has been trying to hijack it ever since. His Word, nor his Church will ever pass away. Since Satan couldn’t stop the Lord from establishing his Church, or his Word, he needed to infiltrate with fakes, such as the Catholic, Mormon, and Jehovah Witness churches to name a few. I am amazed how so many can be fooled by Joseph Smith. He denied the Virgin Birth of Christ. He was a polygamist, a serial adulterer, and It just goes on, and on. But Christians know this was coming, so it’s of no surprise we would see this Apostasy. I could only hope that the Lord show you the actual truth of the Gospel. I know the Mormons don’t believe scripture to be the inerrant Word of Jesus Christ, hence why they contradict and add to the Word to begin with.

          • Brandon Stephenson

            l am sad you call him evil and come up with awful lies about Joseph Smith. I have read far more than you will ever read on him. Every document ever written by or about him is at my fingertips. Your lies are unfounded and are re-told false hoods with only citations of citations. You trash him to excuse yourself from having to believe him. I will defend him until I die.

          • Charles

            Did you know he was a Freemason? The Masons acknowledge him as a member of a lodge. It’s also well know that many of the practices in the “Temple” were taken directly from freemasonry. It was well know about his philandering. Even your Church admitted to his multiple wives. These aren’t lies. It’s just who this fake was. He was a fake prophet, liar, and a manipulative deceiver. You will know them by their fruits. The fact that truth doesn’t really matter to you is why you have been deceived. I get it. It’s hard to admit we’ve been duped. But that’s your pride being unable to accept the real truth. You’re false prophet has a whole bunch of pride. Guess what’s #1 on the 7 most things the Lord hates? You guessed it, pride. I’m sorry, you’ve been duped. Fortunately, the Lord Jesus Christ has enabled the Christian Brothers and Sisters to see the underbellies of these Satanic creations. Amen.

          • Brandon Stephenson

            Charles, I imagine you think I am a newbie or something in this Mormon faith. Duped or tricked as you may say. There is no “did you know” item you can throw at me. There is no quote in or out of context I have not come across. There is no weird Mormon history I am not aware of. I have read and studied it all. It’s my job to do so. I have studied the words of the Bible and other scripture you reject. You don’t want more than the Bible, I get it. Satanic? Give me a break. You are a no different than the Pharisees who rejected Christ and called Him satanic. That is insulting and territory I recognize ends my discussion with you.

          • Charles

            ** I have studied the words of the Bible and other scripture you reject

            I’m not the one rejecting the Bible.

            ** You don’t want more than the Bible

            I don’t need anymore than the Bible.

            ** Satanic?

            Freemasonry is Satanic. Pentagrams on Mormon temples.. Yes. Satanic.

            **Pharisees who rejected Christ and called Him satanic.

            It’s you who have rejected the Word of the Lord. You deny all kinds of doctrines in the Bible. I would say you have that reversed.

          • Charles

            Sorry, I wanted to answer your comment concerning that I think you weren’t a knowledgeable Mormon. No I didn’t assume that. You may be extremely smart, and knowledgeable in many things. The issue is I don’t think many understand just how intelligent Satan is. The only defense against the wiles of the devil is Jesus. Man all by himself is incapable of out smarting Satan. It’s really important Brandon to understand how easily men can be tricked by the Earths greatest deceiver Satan. Remember he will deceive the WHOLE WORLD at one time. Only the Elect will be able to resist thanks to the Most High Jesus Christ.

          • Brandon Stephenson

            I am done with this Charles. You are calling me satanic. That shows me where you are with reality. Have a great life.

          • Charles

            No I called your religion Satanic. I simply said you were deceived.

        • Joe Dokes

          He’s lying because he’s not ignorant of what you’re saying. It’s odd that Mormons, perhaps unofficially, evidently have something akin to the Mohammedan’s taquiyya where lying for a greater cause is a holy and acceptable thing. We see it right here: you can cite documented fact after fact from LDS writings…but he’ll deny them, knowing they’re quite factual. I’ve seen it many times before but it’s still creepy to watch.

          • Charles

            Definitely a hard crew to get through to.. ha ha… As you wrote, there’s a plethora of information about this Apostate religion and it’s fake “Prophet”. Maybe a hardening of the heart? It is a weird phenomena though.

          • Joe Dokes

            The god of this world has blinded them, that’s all. But the light of Christ has shone on once-blinded others, myself very much included, so it can on them.

            Forget all their weird doctrines — they’re prepared to argue all of that until they wear you out. They’re more than happy to stalemate you on any of it.

            All you need to do is make them explain why the God WHO CANNOT LIE can be trusted with Smith/BoM/LDS prophets, but can’t be trusted with the Bible. It is really that simple. They have no way out of that hole…and best of all, Joseph Smith himself dug them into it.

  • Joe Dokes

    Do not forget this fact:

    The alleged corruption of the Word of God in the Bible is THE FUNDAMENTAL REASON the LDS exist.

    Write that down and never forget it when you encounter Mormons who want to convert you.

    If the Bible was corrupted, then the God who gave it is not to be trusted nor believed because He is either a liar or a weakling. But Mormons want to insist that He got it right with Joseph Smith, BoM, etc etc etc.

    See the scam? They want it both ways. It’s bait and switch.

    Make them explain it to you: If God can’t be trusted to have preserved His Word in the Bible (which they still use, bizarrely), why should He be trusted on anything else He has to say via Mormon prophets?

    Conclusion: thanks to Joseph Smith’s slandering the Bible as corrupt, Mormonism refutes itself from its very foundation and Mormons have no way around it.

    • Stuart McHardy

      While I cannot state Joseph never used the term corruption in his writings, I am pretty sure that he never said the Bible was corrupt. A bit more of that hyperbole, eh, to rile the uninformed? That’s integrity for you.

      What Joseph did teach is that some – let me print that word again for you, some plain and precious truths had disappeared from the original texts, intimating, I believe, that via the many translation processes, debates, imperfections of both man and man’s language, committees, councils, etc., that some parts or words did not come out very well.

      Stating that some truths had been hidden or lost due to imperfections of man and men is only reasonable to assume, given the example of the last few decades’ further dumbing down of the beautiful language of John Tyndale to make it more approachable for 20/21st century non-readers. Have you been involved in translation work, and if so, found it easy to reconcile differences between different words with very similar meanings?

      In the 1838 Wentworth letter to a Chicago newspaper editor, Joseph wrote that the LDS people believe in the Bible and hold it to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly. That is not calling it corrupt. That is suggesting that here and there there have been changes, omissions and imperfections, and they are due to man’s involvement, not calling God a liar.

  • Harriet D’Agostino

    I don’t judge any one . it is not up to us to be judge and jury of any one. We don’t know the hearts of others,and if they will change their feeling about the things they believe . And who is to say if we have the whole truth of the Bible . If we don’t have love for others ,then we don’t have the truth of GOD in us.

    • vicnicholls

      Then your beliefs are not in line with the Bible. The Bible indicates we are to judge and what to use. We see hearts by the fruit they produce, one of which is bringing our thoughts in line and captive to Him. If you don’t believe the whole Bible, then you are not a Christian.

      The Truth of God is more than love for others. It is a love for Christ first. He gives you that love for others that they see the truth. Christ rebuked His disciples when they were/did wrong.