Ohio Pastor No Longer Allowed to Offer Lunchtime Bible Study at School Following Complaint

WINTERSVILLE, Ohio — An Ohio pastor will no longer be allowed to offer a voluntary lunchtime Bible study for students at a local middle school after one of the nation’s most conspicuous professing atheist organizations submitted a letter of complaint to the school district.

An attorney for the Indian Creek School District has submitted a letter to the Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) advising that the school district will meet with the pastor to explain their “legal obligations,” which they believe prohibits him from sharing the gospel with students.

“At this meeting, the district will ensure that Mr. Bauman does not regularly lead or attend student group activities in the district’s schools,” attorney Donna Andrew of Pepple & Waggoner, Ltd. wrote. “Additionally, the district will ensure that Mr. Bauman will not proselytize to students during the school day.”

Read the letter in full here.

As previously reported, FFRF submitted correspondence last month to Indian Creek Superintendent T.C. Chappelear after a Facebook post from Bobbyjon Bauman of the Valley Youth Network was brought to their attention.

“We had 165 kids at the FCA Bible studies during lunch at Indian Creek Middle School today! I shared the gospel with them using Romans 6:23 as the touchstone verse. None of the kids in any of the four Bible study groups even knew what the word ‘gospel’ meant, so I was able to share with them the significance of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ,” Bauman wrote.

“The kids were very responsive to the message and we had 30 of them request Bibles because they didn’t own one, so next week, we will be bringing them Bibles,” he outlined, explaining student interest.

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FFRF took issue with the offering, asserting to the school district that the Constitution prohibits Bauman from teaching public school students about Jesus during the lunch period.

“It is unconstitutional for the district to offer religious leaders access to befriend and proselytize students during the school day on school property,” the Church-State separation group wrote. “This predatory conduct is inappropriate and should raise many red flags. The district cannot allow its schools to be used as recruiting grounds for churches during the school day.”

The organization also contended that the fact that the Bible study is voluntary—that it is only attended by students who are interested—does not alleviate concerns.

“Please note that it makes no difference that students are not required to attend these preaching sessions. Voluntariness does not excuse a constitutional violation,” FFRF opined. “The district must immediately discontinue allowing Mr. Bauman, or any other preachers, access to students during the school day.”

Now that district attorneys have advised that Bauman’s activities will not be allowed to continue, the atheist activist group cheered the news, stating that it is “glad to be of constitutional service.”

However, as previously reported, while some state that God and government must remain separated, others note that the nation was founded by those who believed that America could not expect to be blessed if it failed to acknowledge and honor Almighty God.

Rush

Dr. Benjamin Rush was a signer of the Declaration of Independence and vice-president of the Bible Society of Philadelphia. In 1806, he said, “The only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government is the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible.”

He also wrote in a letter to John Adams in 1807, “By renouncing the Bible, philosophers swing from their moorings upon all moral subjects. Our Saviour in speaking of it calls it ‘Truth,’ in the abstract. It is the only correct map of the human heart that ever has been published. It contains a faithful representation of all its follies, vices & crimes. All systems of religion, morals, and government not founded upon it, must perish, and how consoling the thought!—It will not only survive the wreck of those systems, but the world itself. ‘The gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.’” (Read here from the National Archives.)

Joseph Coerten Hornblower, a member of the Continental Congress and chief justice of the New Jersey Supreme Court, was co-founder of the American Bible Society—an organization that provided Bibles to both the Union and Confederate armies during the Civil War.

U.S. Supreme Court Justice John Jay, who later became president of Hornblower’s American Bible Society, also once said in 1816 in a letter to John Murray, “Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.”


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  • JPT

    “…America could not expect to be blessed if it failed to acknowledge and honor Almighty God.”

    That right there is evangelical terrorism.

    • Susan Perelka

      It’s TRUTH, but you have been given free will to reject it or accept it. Every choice we make comes with consequences, good and bad. If God has shown you mercy, to know how to be reconciled to Him through Jesus, and you reject that truth, which was spoken by one of His servants, than your blood will be upon your own head, you are without excuse. You were warned of Gods just judgement to come, you have been offered a way out so that you will not have to come under that judgement, a way that God Himself dearly paid for. IF you reject that free gift, then you will reap the eternal consequences, but you will not be able to accuse God of being unjust because He warned you. There is a God, the creation bears witness that Someone created it (God), so you are without excuse. Noah was telling people to come INTO the Ark to be saved from Gods judgement, an escape by God was being provided, they rejected it and that is why they were destroyed. They choose to reject Gods offer of salvation. That offer is now being given through Jesus, He is the Ark of safety in which you can enter in order to be safe when Gods judgement comes against mans rebellion against Him. Jesus paid for our sin debt upon His own body on that cross. You simply have to CHOOSE to believe it with all your heart. I encourage you to choose wisely. When you die, you will stand before the Creator. Will you be on the Ark or not?

      • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

        No one is forcing you to believe it.

        So keep it out of public schools.

        • Susan Perelka

          The reason we are proclaiming it every where, is because we care about all people and don’t want to see them stand condemned before God when there is a way not to stand condemned before Him. LOVE takes the ridicule, insults, beatings, and so on because we CARE. Love is an action and not a feeling. Read 1 Corinthians chapter 13 in the New Testament. It is Gods definition of what love really is. It’s our love for God and people, that is why we won’t be silent. You don’t have to believe it when someone tells it. No one is forcing these kids to make a confession of belief. You can reject it and kick us out, but you won’t be able to accuse us of being selfish and hiding the truth from you.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            The reason we are proclaiming it every where, is because we care about all people and don’t want to see them stand condemned before God when there is a way not to stand condemned before Him.

            Yes, because you worship a god that inflicts eternal torment on people for having a mistaken opinion.

            Read 1 Corinthians chapter 13 in the New Testament. It is Gods definition of what love really is.

            Which includes the aforementioned eternal torment on people for having a mistaken opinion.

            No one is forcing these kids to make a confession of belief.

            You still have to keep it out of public schools, because it’s the law.

          • Susan Perelka

            God’s law supersedes man’s law because God is the Creator of all things, not the created. Mistaken opinion? I think God has given His Word and His people to TELL you the truth, don’t blame God when YOU refuse to accept it. You are making a free will choice and you will pay the consequences of that choice. God has fully informed you, you have CHOSEN to not listen to Him. The good news is, that as long as you still have breath in your lungs, you can change your mind and listen to God and He will forgive. God is still offering you mercy, but it comes to an end at some point. Please don’t do this, don’t ignore the way of escape that God is offering you.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            God’s law supersedes man’s law

            Not in the US. We have plenty of religious nuts who know exactly what their gods allow, but if you break US law it doesn’t matter if you think your god is OK with it.

            I think God has given His Word and His people to TELL you the truth

            And Muslims think the same thing, but about their god. Same with thousands of other gods.

          • Susan Perelka

            When you take your last breath, you won’t be standing before any human judge, but the judge of all Creation. You want something to test, here it is…. study the prophecies in the Old Testament that were fulfilled, even ones about what nations would rise and fall, no other religion has done the same. I challenge you to test the bible thoroughly. Go ahead, disprove it. Study the other religions also, test them. How can you know if it is truth, when you haven’t even tested it.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            When you take your last breath, you won’t be standing before any human judge, but the judge of all Creation.

            On what basis do you claim to know this? Have you died before? I suspect not.

            Do you realize that billions of people believe in other afterlife situations? Why should I believe YOURS and not theirs?

            You want something to test, here it is…. study the prophecies in the Old Testament that were fulfilled, even ones about what nations would rise and fall, no other religion has done the same with such accuracy.

            Eyeroll. How about Tyre? That prediction failed.

            How can you know if it is truth, when you haven’t even tested it.

            I see no good reason to think any gods exist, and lots of reasons to think none exist.
            Why do you think your particular religion is true?

          • Susan Perelka

            Than you don’t want to know the One who created you, that is the root here. I gave you a reason, prophecy. How much time have you put into your study? It takes much research, and reading. I have done it for years, still do it on an ongoing basis. Historical documents, ancient texts in the original Greek and Hebrew. You live in a nation where information is everywhere. I have read every word in the bible over and over again. It stands the test. The real question is whether or not you really want to know. God promised that if you wanted to really know Who made you, that He would reveal Himself to you. I can’t convince you if you don’t want to know. This is a decision you have to make in your heart. Read the post I replied to JPT, are you even curious to know?

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            I gave you a reason, prophecy.

            Failed ones negate it. Tyre wasn’t destroyed.

          • Susan Perelka

            Study closer. You want me to spoon feed you information, that is dangerous. Study it closer yourself.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            You want me to spoon feed you information, that is dangerous.

            No, I’ve already pointed out that Tyre is a failed prophesy. Why should I listen to failed prophets?

          • Susan Perelka

            God said “many nations” would come against Tyre in that prophecy. There is a change in pronouns, look closely. Babylon was just one nation with many others who came afterwards. God was giving an overview of Tyre’s history. Just like He was giving an overview of Israels history in Daniels prophecies with the statue (most have passed, some are still to be). Study the history of Tyre. Someone told you it isn’t accurate, I say it is, now study for YOURSELF and see who is correct.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            God said “many nations” would come against Tyre in that prophecy.

            And that it would be destroyed. But it wasn’t.

  • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

    If the FFRF objected to a public school that still practiced slavery, it looks like christiannews wouldn’t mention that slavery has been unlawful for decades (just like these in-school bible classes), and instead quote government officials early in US history extolling the virtues of owning slaves.

  • Luminous

    I think “voluntary” covers the situation pretty well.

    • Darwin C

      “(5) nonschool persons may not direct, conduct, control, or regularly attend activities of student groups.”

      Covers it even better.

  • Brian Curtis

    School ain’t church. Get over it and preach on your time, on your own property.

    • Jesusdidnttap

      Get behind me Satan

      • Brian Curtis

        So, you have nothing to offer in response. And it shows.

        • Jesusdidnttap

          Sowing in the morning, sowing seeds of kindness,
          Sowing in the noontide and the dewy eve;
          Waiting for the harvest, and the time of reaping,
          We shall come rejoicing, bringing in the sheaves.
          Refrain:
          Bringing in the sheaves, bringing in the sheaves,
          We shall come rejoicing, bringing in the sheaves;
          Bringing in the sheaves, bringing in the sheaves,
          We shall come rejoicing, bringing in the sheaves.
          Sowing in the sunshine, sowing in the shadows,
          Fearing neither clouds nor winter’s chilling breeze;
          By and by the harvest, and the labor ended,
          We shall come rejoicing, bringing in the sheaves.
          Going forth with weeping, sowing for the Master,
          Though the loss sustained our spirit often grieves;
          When our weeping’s over, He will bid us welcome,
          We shall come rejoicing, bringing in the sheaves.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            I’ve got my own moral compass to steer by
            A guiding star beats a spirit in the sky
            And all the preaching voices
            Empty vessels of dreams so loud
            As they move among the crowd
            Fools and thieves are well disguised
            In the temple and marketplace

          • Jesusdidnttap

            Rush. My brothers favorite band. He’s doing life in prison for killing a woman.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            I find they have many quotable lyrics. Maybe one of these times I’ll try to carry on an entire conversation here with nothing but Rush and Douglas Adams quotes.

    • Jesusdidnttap

      Shall we gather at the river,
      Where bright angel feet have trod,
      With its crystal tide forever
      Flowing by the throne of God?
      Refrain:
      Yes, we’ll gather at the river,
      The beautiful, the beautiful river;
      Gather with the saints at the river
      That flows by the throne of God.
      On the margin of the river,
      Washing up its silver spray,
      We will talk and worship ever,
      All the happy golden day.
      Ere we reach the shining river,
      Lay we every burden down;
      Grace our spirits will deliver,
      And provide a robe and crown.
      At the smiling of the river,
      Mirror of the Savior’s face,
      Saints, whom death will never sever,
      Lift their songs of saving grace.
      Soon we’ll reach the silver river,
      Soon our pilgrimage will cease;
      Soon our happy hearts will quiver
      With the melody of peace.

      • Nedd Kareiva

        Hey, buddy, I love the thought of gathering by the river with all the saints, which we will do when we exit this life, but that’s irrelevant to the debate with the anti-Christian leftists posting here. If you can’t counter the likes of Brian here with the Word of God and our constitutional history, you’re not making good representation of the gospel of Christ & defending the Christian faith in U.S. history and you would be better off posting this feel good music on websites so designed for it. We may or may not be able to win over the likes of Brian but it is our job to be armed with the truth and speak it to souls like him. Copying and pasting ancient hymns will have little, if any, impact on his ilk.

        • Jesusdidnttap

          This is a comment section and I will post as I see fit. I would rather sing for Our Lord than babble with a trolling heathen. Stay blessed

    • Jesusdidnttap

      Michael row the boat ashore, hallelujah
      Michael row the boat ashore, hallelujah
      Michael row the boat ashore, hallelujah
      Michael row the boat ashore, hallelujah
      This old world’s a mighty big place, hallelujah
      It’s got satan all over its face, hallelujah
      Jordan’s river is chilly and cold, hallelujah
      But it warms the human soul, hallelujah
      So, Michael row the boat ashore, hallelujah
      Michael row the boat ashore, hallelujah
      Michael row the boat ashore, hallelujah
      Michael row that boat ashore, hallelujah
      Did you hear what old Jonah said, hallelujah
      When the world thought he was dead, hallelujah
      I was taking’ me a ride, hallelujah
      In that big old whales inside, hallelujah
      So, Michael row the boat ashore, hallelujah
      Michael row the boat ashore, hallelujah
      Michael row the boat ashore, hallelujah
      Michael row that boat ashore, hallelujah
      They put Daniel in the lion’s den, hallelujah
      And he walked right out again, hallelujah
      The reason them felines permitted that, hallelujah
      Was that Daniel had no fat, hallelujah
      So Michael row the boat ashore, hallelujah
      Michael row the boat ashore, hallelujah
      Michael row the boat ashore, hallelujah
      Michael row that boat ashore, hallelujah
      They nailed Jesus to the cross, hallelujah
      But his faith was never lost, hallelujah
      So christian soldiers off to war, hallelujah
      Hold that line in Arkansas, hallelujah
      Like Joshua at Jericho, hallelujah
      Alabama’s next to go, hallelujah
      So Mississippi kneel and pray, hallelujah
      Some more buses on the way, hallelujah
      Michael row the boat ashore, hallelujah
      Michael row the boat ashore, hallelujah
      Michael row the boat ashore, hallelujah
      Michael row the boat ashore, hallelujah
      Michael row the boat ashore, hallelujah
      Michael row the boat ashore, hallelujah
      Michael row the boat ashore, hallelujah
      Michael row the boat ashore, hallelujah

    • Jesusdidnttap

      You know it’s never too late to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior.

      • Brian Curtis

        Or Allah. Or Vishnu. So many choices, all of them bad.

        • Jesusdidnttap

          Lord, I hope this day is good
          I’m feelin’ empty and misunderstood
          I should be thankful, Lord, I know I should
          But Lord I hope this day is good

          Lord, have you forgotten me
          I’ve been prayin’ to you faithfully
          I’m not sayin’ I’m a righteous man
          But Lord I hope you understand

          I don’t need fortune and I don’t need fame
          Send down the thunder, Lord, send down the rain
          But when you’re plannin’ just how it will be
          Plan a good day for me

          Lord, I hope this day is good
          I’m feelin’ empty and misunderstood
          I should be thankful, Lord, I know I should
          But Lord I hope this day is good

          You’ve been the King since the dawn of time
          All that I’m askin’ is a little less crime
          It might be hard for the devil to do
          But it would be easy for you

          Lord, I hope this day is good
          I’m feelin’ empty and misunderstood
          I should be thankful, Lord, I know I should
          But Lord I hope this day is good

    • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

      No it isn’t, which is why the religion of atheism and secular humanism need to get out of the education system.

      • Brian Curtis

        They’re not in the education system; neutrality is, which is what the Constitution requires.

        • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

          They most certainly are in the education system, at least in North America. The Constitution does not forbid Christianity being taught in the school, nor does it forbid someone teaching about Christianity during lunchtime.

          • Brian Curtis

            Actually, it does forbid government agencies (such as public schools) to show religious favoritism. If you want to understand why, try picturing an imam being brought into the school to preach Islam.

            And please support your claim that “the religion of atheism(?) and secular humanism” are in the education system. Do you think there’s no such thing as neutrality?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            No, it does not teach that. Since you’re claiming it does, prove it.

            Islam is already being taught in public schools.

            What do you think secular humanism is? If you could identify it, you’d know it’s what you’re currently labeling as “neutrality”. There’s no such thing as neutrality, ever. Everyone picks a side.

          • Brian Curtis

            The existence of Islam as a religion is indeed being taught… as a simple fact, in Social Studies and World History courses. Just like Christianity and Judaism and Hinduism and plenty more. Do you object to this? Or do you think students somewhere in a public school are being converted to Islam by hired preachers, as you’d evidently like to see here?

            “No such thing as neutrality, ever?” It’s a good thing the Supreme Court disagrees.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            You’re quite incorrect. Students are being taught to say the shahada, which counts as conversion in Islam. Show me where children in public schools are taught to say the sinner’s prayer, get baptized, and receive the laying on of hands, and take communion.

            The Supreme Court once ruled a black man was sub-human. Do you really follow everything the Supreme Court says?

          • Brian Curtis

            When it comes to the Constitution, yes. Obviously. As do we all.

            Now, your claim that students in public schools are being converted to Islam is fascinating. You have a citation to support it, of course?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            So you believe that blacks are sub-human? No surprise that you’re a bigot.

            Regarding the converting-to-Islam story, check out the lawsuit filed by parents John and Melissa Wood against La Plata High School in Maryland.

          • Guzzman

            You cited the La Plata High School case as an example of students “converting-to-Islam.” The school’s World History class is in no way indoctrinating students or forcing them to convert to Islam.

            The lesson in question is on the formation of Middle Eastern empires. Students are taught the basic concepts of the Islamic faith and how it, along with politics, culture, economics and geography, contributed to the development of the Middle East. Other religions are introduced when they are relevant to a particular historical era or geographic region. For example, when reviewing the Renaissance and Reformation, students study the concepts and role of Christianity. When learning about the development of China and India, students examine Hinduism and Buddhism.

            This is a typical World History class that has been in use in the state of Maryland for many years without incident. It complies with the Maryland World History curricular standards which are applied across the entire state.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            That’s incorrect. The children were forced to recite “There is no god but allah”. They are considered Muslims in Islam’s eyes. That’s why parents are suing.

            Would you be all right with children learning about Christianity by reciting the sinner’s prayer, getting baptized, receiving the laying on of hands, and taking communion, because that’s the Christian equivalent.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            The children were forced to recite “There is no god but allah”.

            Got a cite for this?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Yes. It’s in the original article you commented on and are now pretending doesn’t exist.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            No, it isn’t. Copy & paste either a link or an excerpt. Make sure it forces them to recite “There is no god but allah”. Are you referring to the calligraphy class?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Did you forget which nic you’re posting under, Peewee? Because you’re making an awful lot of mistakes tonight.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            So, instead of backing up your false claim, you try a red herring.

          • Tristan Fry

            I can explain the “Peewee” thing. There is supposedly a 1000-headed troll who changes logins every few minutes and never sleeps. I, and at least 25 other people I know of, have been accused of being Peewee, and now Guest is basically telling you that you are also me.

          • Brian Curtis

            Hahaha… no. That story is utter B.S. No students were being ordered, or even suggested, to convert to Islam. They were given an example of Islamic calligraphy to try and copy. Only the paranoid Islamophobic bigots (the Woods) pretended that this was an attempt at conversion.

            And again…no, I don’t believe black are sub–human. I do, however, believe that the Supreme Court is the ultimate authority on the Constitution… because they are. Do you deny this?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Let’s start with your comment regarding the Supreme Court being the ultimate authority on the Constitution. The Supreme Court, in making a ruling on the Constitution and black men, ruled that black men are sub-human and not protected by the Constitution. Do you deny this?

            Not only are you wrong in your denial about the school incident, but you are very wrong about Islam. Merely writing out the shahada constitutes as conversion in Islam.

          • Brian Curtis

            …according to a raving Islamophobic nut.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Name calling is the last resort in a failing argument. Before you make false accusations, you should know that I come from a family with Muslim relations. Now do you want to try to actually discuss facts, or do you just want to have a temper tantrum because you have no basis for your claims?

          • Brian Curtis

            I wasn’t referring to you. Woods is a raving Islamophobic nut, which is why his case is groundless. So here are some facts:

            The Supreme Court is, BY LAW, the ultimate authority on what is and is not Constitutional.

            Your claim that students are being taught and converted to Islam in public schools is unsupported.

            Your claim that the ‘religon of atheism(?)’ is being taught in public schools is both irrational AND unsupported.

            So, what else ya got?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            You clearly don’t know what you’re talking about since you called Woods a “he”, so how would you know “he” is an Islamophobic nut?

            Here’s one big fact for you that you’ve tried hard to ignore: The Supreme Court once ruled, (mis)using the Constitution, that a black man was sub-human. Do you really want to stand by that decision? It’s not name calling to call a bigot a bigot. It’s a statement of fact.

          • Brian Curtis

            Yes, Kevin Wood is a ‘he.’ He’s the one who banned from the school for creating a disturbance with his ignorant ranting about his daughter’s schoolwork. He’s the one claiming that reading about Islamic calligraphy is some sort of magical-conversion ritual that imperils children’s souls. So yes, he’s both Islamophobic and a nut.

            I haven’t ignored your argument about the Supreme Court. I’ve pointed out that the Supreme Court, by definition, decides what’s constitutional. That’s something YOU seem to have a great deal of trouble with. And insisting that your religion puts you above the law seems like bigotry to me.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            No, it is two Woods who are suing – both Mr. and Mrs.

            I can’t help you when you are both misrepresenting the facts of this case, as well as misrepresenting what it takes for one to convert to Islam. Why do you think ISIS lets victims go if they recite the shahada? It’s because it’s how one converts to Islam. The fact that you are arguing this without understanding the basic tenets of Islam is very telling and sad.

            What’s even sadder is you skirting the fact that you said you supported the Supreme Court’s ruling that a black man is sub-human. Shame on you!

          • Brian Curtis

            I didn’t say I supported the ruling. I would have disagreed with it, in fact (although they said “property,” not “sub-human”). But it still would have been the constitutional law of the land.

            So what’s your source for the ‘facts’ of the Woods’ case? And who cares what Muslims believe–unless you share the Woods’ view that magic writing and chanting rituals really DO have an effect on people? I understand the basic tenets of Islam just fine; and I find them as laughably worthless as the tenets of every other religion, including yours. Your argument is that

            1) Assuming that the Woods’ persecution-fantasy story of magic writing rituals in schools is accurate, and
            2) Assuming the Muslim doctrine of unwilling conversion is somehow valid, and
            3) Public schools–oops, I mean ONE school, allegedly, and without substantiation–approved this part of the curriculum…

            …then the end result is–well, what, exactly? That some schoolkids in Maryland are being deceitfully indoctrinated and inducted into Islam, and therefore it should be okay for schools in Ohio (and elsewhere, presumably) to indoctrinate kids in Christianity?

            Seriously? That’s your case? *headshake*

            The Woods have no case; they have no facts; their claims are ludicrous and border on magical thinking. U.S. law is under no obligation to support the delusions of some religious wackos who don’t want their kid to know that Islam exists.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            You did say you supported the ruling when you said you supported any Supreme Court Constitution ruling. You also misrepresented what the ruling was and sought to minimize it. It was a racist, unconstitutional ruling (even though it cited the Constitution) and was later overturned.

            You also believe that Christians should be exempt from the Constitution, which is why you’re arguing so hard about blacks being ruled as sub-humans by the Supreme Court.

            Either you are the same person I had this discussion with in the past, or you’re getting the same talking points he/she did from the same site. Either way, your arguments are baseless and without merit.

          • Brian Curtis

            Nope, still wrong. I never said I agreed with the ruling, you just WANTED to me to say it. (Go ahead; try to find where I said “I support any Supreme Court Constitution ruling.” You can’t.) And by definition, it wasn’t unconstitutional. That’s why there were additional amendments passed after the Civil War, after all. You really need to learn some history.

            Still waiting for you to provide your own citations, by the way.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            You just gave yourself away as w2718281828stl2718281828y. Look, if you’re going to try to pretend to be different people, at least use different words. You’ve copied identical SENTENCES. Unbelievable!

            Why are you okay with Islam being mandatorily taught in school and opposed to voluntary lunchtime Bible studies? More prejudice?

          • Brian Curtis

            Because I understand the difference between teaching and preaching. You, and the Woods family, evidently do not.

            Students are being taught ABOUT the various world religions in public school, and there’s nothing wrong with that. (Christianity is one of them, remember?)

            What happened at the Ohio school was different: a school-sponsored preaching session, with nothing educational about it. And you’re trying to defend it with made-up claims and zero evidence. What’s up with that?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Teaching about Islam would not be having students recite the very words that constitute as conversion. Funny how you think you know more about Islam than Muslims do.

          • Brian Curtis

            Funny how you keep making claims without providing any evidence to back them up. For example, where do you get YOUR expertise on how to teach about Islam and what ‘counts’ as a conversion? You seem to be long on assumptions and very short on facts. Might want to work on that.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            You mean like growing up with Muslim family?

          • Brian Curtis

            I mean like providing any sort of proof for ANY of your claims. As a reminder, you’ve claimed that

            *Religious neutrality is impossible,
            *The “religion of atheism” is being taught in public schools,
            *That students are being forced to participate in a Muslim conversion ritual,
            *That this ritual actually has an effect (which would be big news!), and
            *The Supreme Court is not the final authority on constitutionality.

            Now, if you’ve got anything to back up these bizarre notions of yours, please present it. Because otherwise you’re pretty clearly blowing smoke.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            I’ve already provided proof of each of my claims, some of which you’ve misrepresented. You’re just having a fit because you’ve been proven wrong. Now call out more of your alts and fume some more.

          • Tristan Fry

            You say that everyone has alt accounts. You’ve said that for years. It’s lame.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            No, I only say it to you and your alts, Peewee.

          • Tristan Fry

            LOL. How many Peewees are there now? On FSTDT we have counted at LEAST 25.

          • Tim Matter

            There is no God but Allah, and Mohammad is his prophet.
            Guess what? I’m still not a Muslim, and I don’t care if they think it means I am.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            So if you have no problem with that being part of official school curriculum, I’m sure you’ll have no problem with “Jesus is Lord” being part of official school curriculum.

          • Netizen_James

            I have no problem with schools teaching about the reality that Muslims believe that ‘there is no god but allah and mohammed is his prophet, or about the reality that Christians believe that Jesus was divine and died to save people from their sins. There is nothing wrong with teaching kids about reality. Why is it that you would like to keep children ignorant?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            That’s not what schools were teaching. They were making children learn the shahada, which is why parents complained.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            By the way, you keep forgetting which nic you’re posting under, Peewee. You keep answering under this persona for things you’ve posted under quite another. 🙂

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Sometimes people answer a question addressed to someone else, you know, or otherwise jump in on a conversation. Heck, I do it all the time.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            And sometimes Peewee gives himself away with his robotic postings. LOL

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Honestly, it’s kind of amusing, seeing you going around accusing just about everybody…

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Honestly, it’s kind of amusing, seeing you going around denying just about everything…

          • TheKingOfRhye

            What exactly do you think I’m “denying”?

          • lol 🙂

          • Tristan Fry

            So he’s calling YOU Peewee, too?
            Funny story behind that. Go to fstdt dot com and look up Lady Checkmate. You can read all about it. Or try the Lady Checkmate entry on the RationalWiki site.

          • Tim Matter

            @Guest- “So if you have no problem with that being part of official school curriculum..”
            Having problems with reading comprehension again?
            I said nothing about wanting it in school. I pointed out that saying those words didn’t automatically make me a Muslim. If it makes me a Muslim according to Muslims, that’s their delusion.
            Delusion: In psychiatry….a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact:

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            If you can’t be honest with yourself, Tim, then you can’t be honest with everyone. Did you forget what you wrote and what other nics wrote? Which one are you claiming is your own? And did you bother to learn anything about stars lately?

          • Tristan Fry

            Going to call him “Peewee” too? Always nice to know who else out there is supposedly one of my “socks”.

          • Tristan Fry

            But you did it yourself just a few comments back. You called him a “bigot”.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Not really. There is a difference between randomly hurling slurs at someone, or identifying a bad behavior. Don’t you think calling a black man “sub-human” constitutes a bigot?

          • Tristan Fry

            He didn’t call a black man sub-human. You presented him with a loaded question, he answered part of it, and you elected to believe that he did.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            He said he supported all Supreme Court rulings pertaining to the Constitution. That’s one of them. By the way, how many names are you going to post under?

          • Tristan Fry

            You can’t prove things like that, sweetums. Go cry to your dark mistress about it. Unless she’s banned you, and that’s just a matter of time.

          • Netizen_James

            That’s a lie, as I’ve pointed out and you ignored. The supreme court never once ruled that black people are sub-human. Why do you tell lies? Do you have some sort of agenda that is not well-served by the truth?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Yes they did. Why don’t you look it up in a history book?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Did you forget which nic you’re using, Peewee?

          • Tristan Fry

            LOL, my stomach hurts from laughing. These guys probably haven’t got a clue what you’re talking about with all your Peewee paranoia.

          • Good catch, lol. I caught that switch as well.

          • Brian Curtis

            Sure, which is why it’s so distressing that you keep doing it. The Supreme Court never did, and I certainly never did either.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Sure they did. It’s an official part of history. You said you condoned it.

          • Netizen_James

            No, that’s bologna. No public schools in the USA are requiring every student to lay out a prayer rug, face Meca, and recite prayers to Allah. If you think that’s happening, please provide evidence. That’s just fear-mongering BS, frankly.

            And no, there *is* such a thing as neutral. The lack of promotion is not equivalent to the promotion of lack. Extremists are commonly paranoid and believe that ‘everyone who isn’t with us is against us’. But Jesus Himself said “whoever is not against us is for us” (Mark9:40), which is the opposite.

            As Ben Franklin wrote: “When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, ’tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.”

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Why are you exaggerating what was claimed? No one mentioned prayer rugs or Mecca, nor are those required to convert to Islam. Reciting the shahada is what’s required for conversion to Islam, and no one, including staff, are denying that’s what happened.

          • Netizen_James

            Where are you getting this nonsensical assertion that reciting the ‘shahada’ is sufficient for conversion to Islam?
            Is reciting John3:16 sufficient for conversion to Christianity? Of course not. Same thing.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            From Islam itself. You do remember what you’re attempting to argue, don’t you, Peewee?

          • Netizen_James

            No Mr. Guest – refraining from promoting Christianity is NOT equivalent to promoting atheism, any more than refraining from promoting Pepsi is equivalent to promoting Coke. The lack of promotion is not equivalent to the promotion of lack, any more than the lack of evidence for any deity is equivalent to evidence for the lack of deities.

            Yes, the Constitution forbids government agents from using the authority vested in their public office to promote or encourage their own religious beliefs to the detriment of all contrary belief systems. As the Supreme Court wrote:
            “The ‘establishment of religion’ clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever from they may adopt to teach or practice religion. ” (330 US 1)

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            No one said that refraining from preaching Christianity is equivalent to promoting atheism. Promoting atheism is promoting atheism. Perhaps you should read the actual posts to which you’re replying before hitting that keyboard.

          • Tristan Fry

            Lady Checkmate says that all the time.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Is that right, Peewee?

          • Tristan Fry

            You are trying too hard, dear. Give Checkmate a big kiss for us.

          • Netizen_James

            >No one said that refraining from preaching Christianity is equivalent to promoting atheism.<

            You did, by asserting that "religion of atheism and secular humanism need to get out of the education system". If you're asserting that they need to get out, that means you're asserting that they're already 'in'.

            If you can cite actual names/dates/places where a school district's official curriculum includes teaching students that prayer is useless and stupid because there are no gods, please go ahead. Otherwise accept that your assertion is simply false, which paints you either as not fully informed, or intentionally deceptive. Pick one.

            Here are some fundamental yes-or-no questions that you need to answer for yourself:
            Do you believe that all US Citizens have the same set of equal rights under the law, regardless of their spiritual beliefs?
            Do you think it should be allowed for the clerk at the DMV to use the authority of that office to promote his own religion while you're a 'captive audience' just trying to renew your driver's licence?
            Do you think it should be allowed for public school teachers and administrators to create a school culture wherein those who believe in spirits and an afterlife are ridiculed and ostracized?
            And most importantly – Do you understand what Jesus meant by 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you?

            If you don't want your child's teacher telling them that prayer is useless and stupid because there are no gods, then you can't countenance public school teachers telling their students that those who don't worship Jesus are going to Hell.
            If you don't want your child's school to create an environment where those with a 'supernatural' perspective are ridiculed and ostracized, then you cannot countenance a school creating an atmosphere where those who take a 'material' perspective are ridiculed and ostracized for sharing the beliefs of the majority.
            If you don't want your child's school to allow the likes of me or Guzzman or Tom Waddell to set up shop in your child's lunchroom to help spread the good news of freedom from the behavioral constraints of mythological sky-deities (completely VOLUNTARILY, of course!), then you can't countenance school administrators allowing this pastor to use the public school to proselytize HIS beliefs either.

            See how that works? See how wise Jesus was to tell us to treat others as we would want to be treated if the script were to be flipped? A pretty wise dude, that Jesus. More people should read and heed his words, and ignore those of the anti-Jesus priests, preachers and pastors who claim to be Christians, but have no love in their hearts for anyone who isn't just like them, or worse, are spreading the anti-Jesus 'prosperity gospel' like Joel Osteen and Creflo Dollar.

            As Jefferson so eloquently put it in his letter to his friend John Adams: "in the New testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. it is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills." (1-24-1814)

          • Netizen_James

            Mr. Guest: Please read this from the Charles County Public Schools:
            “Charles County Public Schools (CCPS) social studies curriculum adheres to the Maryland World History curricular standards that are a requirement for all counties in the state. These standards include an analysis of the elements of culture such as art, music, religion, government, social structure, education, beliefs and customs in societies throughout history. Regarding the study of history specifically, the standards also state that students should be able to analyze the customs and beliefs of world religions and their expansion, as well as how their establishment has impacted other areas of culture, and in certain times and regions, even caused conflict.

            The particular unit in question at La Plata High School is on the formation of Middle Eastern empires in which students learned the basic concepts of the Islamic faith and how it, along with politics, culture, economics and geography, contributed to the development of the Middle East. Other religions are introduced when they influence or impact a particular historical era or geographic region. For example, when reviewing the Renaissance and Reformation, students study the concepts and role of Christianity. When learning about the development of China and India, students examine Hinduism and Buddhism.”

            What part of that constitutes ‘forcing students to convert to Islam?’ When they study Christianity and the Reformation and the Holy Roman Empire and the English Civil Wars, does that ‘force students to convert to Christianity’ when they’re assigned homework relating to differentiating a Scottish Cross from a Latin Cross

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Why? I’ve already read it. It seems that you are quite unfamiliar with it, Peewee.

      • TheKingOfRhye

        No such thing as “the religion of atheism”, and it isn’t “in the education system” anyway. Schools being neutral on religion isn’t promoting atheism, or even secular humanism. Like you were asked by several different people already, can give some examples where schools were actively “promoting atheism”?

        Actually, now that I think about it, maybe the way you put that is pretty telling. You want this and that “religion” out of the schools…but your religion in them is just fine?

        • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

          You and I have already discussed this, and I’ve shown you more than one court ruling that declares atheism to be a religion.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Yeah, and I kept asking for your opinion about it, but you never could come up with an answer for that. Is that your only argument? “There’s a court ruling!”

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Because we are discussing FACTS, it’s a pretty good idea to stick to those. Opinions are just that – opinions.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            I don’t know, seems to be pretty darn pointless to me, to be having a discussion about some facts, without offering any opinion on those facts. But, hey….I guess if we’re just tossing around facts, and court rulings, and having no discussion on what we think about them…..here’s a few:

            Banning same-sex marriage is unconstitutional in the United States. (Obergefell)

            The First Amendment means the government can’t support any one religion at the expense of others. (Everson v. Board of Ed.)

            Intelligent design is not science, and to teach it in public schools is a violation of the Establishment Clause. (Kitzmiller v. Dover)

            I hope you don’t have any differing opinions of any of those court rulings, since we’re just sticking to the facts here.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            You can find a court ruling on just about anything, but we were talking about legal definitions. I stated what the legal definition of atheism was. Your opinion does not change the fact that atheism was legally ruled a religion.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            If that’s all you got, stick to that, I guess. I suppose you have no answers for the rest of what I was asking you, either.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            I think you’re confused what the topic is about. I referred to a legal definition as merely that – a legal definition – and suddenly you want to delve into another topic involving same sex unions which is off topic. If you want to discuss same sex unions, go to an article that discusses that topic. There are plenty.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Okay, fine, then….just tell me of any specific examples of schools “promoting atheism” like you claimed. If you don’t have any of those, then I don’t see any point to mentioning that.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            I already have, multiple times. Are you a gay activist like Michael C, or are you here for the conversation? If so, why would you, as an atheist, decide to hang around a Christian site?

          • TheKingOfRhye

            I already have, multiple times.

            You have? I don’t think I’ve ever seen that, maybe it was in a conversation that I wasn’t watching?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            You don’t watch when I respond to you? Why don’t you answer my question about you being a gay activist like Michael C, or respond as to why you are here?

          • TheKingOfRhye

            You don’t watch when I respond to you?

            I don’t remember you presenting any evidence of schools promoting atheism to me. I haven’t looked back though all of our conversations; either I just don’t remember it, or you were talking to someone else, or maybe I just didn’t think it was evidence of such a thing. I remember you talking about how some school was supposedly promoting Islam, but that’s a different ball of wax.

            Why don’t you answer my question about you being a gay activist like Michael C,

            If you’re asking me if I am fully in favor of LGBT rights? Yeah, I think I’ve made that pretty darn clear over all this time.

            And why I’m here? Well, to argue with people whose views I often oppose, and give a secular perspective on things, I suppose.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Why?

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Why what?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Come now. At least pretend to be sincere.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            You asked me “why” in response to a post where I said several different things. I just wanted to be sure exactly what you’re asking me before I went off on some tangent that wasn’t related to what you were asking.

            Now if I was really being insincere, I would have just answered with “Because.”

            But, I notice you still haven’t answered my question, so I don’t see why I should elaborate further myself.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            If you read your post, then mine, it’s clear why I was asking why.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Again….why what? Do you try to make things difficult?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            I mean someone who comes here to push the homosexual cause. Some posters are even paid to post the pro homosexual agenda here, including targeting posters who oppose same sex unions, etc. You may inadvertently be involved in helping them.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            I mean someone who comes here to push the homosexual cause.

            Well, as I said just a little while back, I am completely for LGBT rights, so….isn’t that what you could call “pushing the homosexual cause”?

            Some posters are even paid to post the pro homosexual agenda here

            Really? I must have missed that meeting, where do I sign up? I could use some extra money these days! Joking aside, unless you have some serious evidence for that, that’s utterly ridiculous. What other ‘conspiracy theories’ are you into, or is that the only one?

            including targeting posters who oppose same sex unions, etc.

            First of all, just what do you mean, by “targeting”?? Anyway, if a group of people were opposed to you having a right to marry, wouldn’t you be against them? What, do you expect homosexual people to say “Oh, you don’t want to let me get married? Gee, thanks, let me bake you a cake!”

            Oh, and I notice you’re still evading my earlier question about evidence of this supposed “schools promoting atheism”, by the way.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Why can’t you answer a simple yes or no? I never say what I do without evidence. There are paid homosexual activists here trying to disrupt the forum.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            I don’t give a “simple yes or no” when I don’t understand what the question is. Or, of course, sometimes, the answer just isn’t as simple as that.

            If you’re asking me if I’m paid…no, I wish. Why would someone do that, anyway? Pay someone to go to a website and argue? I don’t get it.

            If you’re asking me if being a “gay activist” is my only goal in coming here…no. I think that should be obvious, just because I do talk about other stuff often.

            And if you have evidence, show it. For the paid people, or the atheism thing.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            It was already given.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            No, it wasn’t. Or at least, I never saw it, or don’t remember it. I’ll just go on assuming you got nothing, until you can tell me otherwise.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            I’ll just go on assuming you’re playing dumb because you have no legitimate response.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            I kinda want to know where I can contact these people…”paid forum agitator” sounds like a pretty sweet job.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            You should ask your friends on the other forum. I’m sure Peewee or Michael can set you up.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Is it maybe just that you don’t want to admit that there are as many pro-LGBT people out there as there actually are? Like the people who always say all the opinion polls are rigged or fabricated to show more support than there ‘actually is’?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            You do know the forum where they discuss being activists is public, don’t you?

          • TheKingOfRhye

            You apparently know a lot more about it than I do.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            If it seems like I’m being a little more sarcastic than usual here, it’s because I can’t believe someone would seriously think such a thing.

          • Marion Franklin

            “There are paid homosexual activists here”

            Are you mentally retarded?

          • Jon Wooten

            Nobody is pushing a homosexual cause here, I wouldn’t even know what a homosexual cause is. They do, however, speak out against religious bigots who would like to see homosexuals punished for simply existing. It really isn’t helpful to your cause to lump everything together into grand conspiracy theories when someone shows you that you’re wrong. A bunch of people point out that you don’t know what you’re talking about? Oh, well, they must all be one person using alts. Someone wants to stand up for human rights? Oh, it’s a grand homosexual-pedophile advocacy group. If you fear dissenting opinion so much that you feel the need to censor and silence your opposition, you’ve lost the battle by default. And you can tell Lady Checkmate that banning people doesn’t work, they will simply come back. I find it droll that you laugh at people for having multiple names, what do you expect is going to happen when someone gets banned for no reason, that they’re just going to lie down and take your nonsense? LOL

          • Bob Johnson

            And the courts have declared corporations to be people.

            Ever heard of the phrase “legal fiction”?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Ever heard of the phrase “legal definition”?

    • Jesusdidnttap

      I will preach where I see fit. You will not deny me my Lord, heathen.

      • Brian Curtis

        No, you won’t. You don’t have the right to preach on my front lawn, for example.

        • Jesusdidnttap

          I will go where my Lord commands me. If it be your lawn so be it.

          • Brian Curtis

            And you’ll be preaching in jail within minutes. The Constitution, not the Bible, is the law of this land.

          • Jesusdidnttap

            Oh you mean the Constitution. The same document you and the rest of the heathens and perverts try to distort and pervert everyday
            I got news for you. The Lord is already upon your lawn, and I shall join Him there. If I go to jail, it’s God’s will. For there is no law greater than God’s.

          • Brian Curtis

            I recall some 9/11 hijackers with a similar attitude.

          • Jesusdidnttap

            Allah is moon God who allows his followers to have relations with goats.
            Mohammed is a pedophile.
            9/11 wasn’t done by Muslims but the federal govt. You enjoy your night pervert.

  • Jesusdidnttap

    These godless heathen serve their master Satan well. But unfortunately for them we all know how this end.

    • Brian Curtis

      Your revenge fantasies are powerless in the real world.

      • Jesusdidnttap

        Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
        That saved a wretch like me!
        I once was lost, but now am found;
        Was blind, but now I see.

        ‘Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
        And grace my fears relieved;
        How precious did that grace appear
        The hour I first believed.

        Through many dangers, toils and snares,
        I have already come;
        ‘Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far,
        And grace will lead me home.

        The Lord has promised good to me,
        His word my hope secures;
        He will my shield and portion be,
        As long as life endures.

        Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
        And mortal life shall cease,
        I shall possess, within the veil,
        A life of joy and peace.

        The world shall soon dissolve like snow,
        The sun refuse to shine;
        But God, who called me here below,
        Shall be forever mine.

        When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
        Bright shining as the sun,
        We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
        Than when we’d first begun.

  • Guzzman

    The Supreme Court in McCollum v. Board of Education (1948) noted that a public school cannot use its compulsory attendance laws to supply churches with students to fill their religious classes. Recruiting children for indoctrination, without parental knowledge or consent, is inappropriate:

    “For the First Amendment rests upon the premise that both religion and government can best work to achieve their lofty aims if each is left free from the other within its respective sphere. Or, as we said in the Everson case, the First Amendment has erected a wall between Church and State which must be kept high and impregnable.”

    “Here not only are the State’s tax-supported public school buildings used for the dissemination of religious doctrines. The State also affords sectarian groups an invaluable aid in that it helps to provide pupils for their religious classes through use of the State’s compulsory public school machinery. This is not separation of Church and State.”

    • Nedd Kareiva

      I didn’t know a lunch room setting equates to being a religious class. Since attendance was purely voluntary and not on instruction time, this was just another effort on the part of the God haters in Madison, WI to make sure another public school is sanitized from anything Christian.

      The 1st Amendment says “Congress shall make NO law”. The Founders never intended to have the Christian faith left at the entrance door of public institutions. The “high & impregnable” statement has been used as a battering ram by leftists like the FFRF to keep any vestige of the Judeo-Christian faith out of public life. If that was the case, then they wrote the wrong Declaration of Independence as they used terms like “Nature’s God, Supreme Being of the Universe, Divine Providence” & “Creator” in drafting this document. The Founders never intended to contain God or religion in their writings. If anything, the “high and impregnable” point should be interpreted that the church was to have a harness an out of control government (something they knew quite well in their battles with King George), not the other way around.

      Your argument is flawed. The term “separation of church & state” does not exist in the Constitution and this matter was not about teaching Christianity in the public school classroom. Nice try.

      • Darwin C

        A public school cannot play favorites and give preachers easy access to a group of other people’s kids to preach to.

        School attendance is compulsory. Government authority cannot be used to round up people for proselytizing, including and especially children.

        The preacher is welcome to talk to as many kids who are willing to come to his (tax exempt) church. But that’s the problem, isn’t it? The message on its own isn’t drawing them to his church. He needs government power to gather them together and make them listen. And that’s illegal.

      • Guzzman

        School children were being recruited to attend these religious classes and it’s being done without the parents even being notified. The courts have decided, going as far back as McCollum v. Board of Education (1948) that voluntariness does not excuse a constitutional violation (also see Lee v. Wiseman; Abington School District v. Schempp). Children are vulnerable to all sorts of social pressure, from peers, and especially from adults – in this case school officials and church leaders. A child who is approached by a school principal or a pastor is going to feel intense pressure to conform to what the authority figure wants, and that is why the courts have said these situations can never really be “voluntary.”

        Giving access to students by an outside religious group for purposes of evangelizing is unconstitutional at any time during the school day. We know this because these very circumstances have already been litigated. And nevermind that this illegal activity was done under false pretenses, without parental knowledge or consent. The pastor falsely characterized the religious classes as a student-run Bible study club. That is a violation of the Equal Access Act because the classes are conducted by outsiders and are not student-initiated or student-run as required by the Act.

      • Chris Hall

        So, if it’s voluntary, you’d be totally happy with a local mosque sending an imam to talk to the students during non instructional time?

      • TheKingOfRhye

        The term “separation of church & state” does not exist in the Constitution

        Not those exact words, but no less than Jefferson and Madison thought that the Establishment Clause gave us separation of church and state.

  • Nedd Kareiva

    “FFRF took issue with the offering, asserting to the school district that
    the Constitution prohibits Bauman from teaching public school students
    about Jesus during the lunch period.”

    Really? I didn’t know the Constitution nor Founding Fathers addressed lunch periods in their writings. Silly me.

    • Brian Curtis

      You’re right, pretending that it should only be limited to lunchtime IS silly. Schools can’t preach at kids at ANY time during the school day.

      • Chet

        It was Holy Bible study, not preaching services, not revival, no tent meeting, no stadium overflowing.

    • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

      The constitution isn’t a list of laws; it doesn’t even make murder illegal.
      It does describe what powers the government has and limitations on those powers, and that means that government employees like public school officials can’t decide to allow people to come in and teach a religion, since that violates the religious rights of students and their parents. I have this odd idea that parents get to decide how their own children are instructed in religion, not whatever random person decides to come in during lunch in a public school.

  • Susan Perelka

    Abba Father, Your people have tried to let their peace rest in this place, but they have not accepted their peace. The peace offered to them by You, for reconciliation to Yourself, told to them through Your ambassadors in Christ. LORD, if there were any in that place who would have accepted this peace and have been blocked from hearing it told, then send Your laborers another way to them. You know the hearts that are seeking You, and Your Word promises that they will find You. Let Your servants peace return to them and lead them to those who will accept it. Let Your Will be done, the gates of hell shall not prevail against Your church. Thank You Father, for the help You will provide. Bless Your faithful servants, make their way prosperous to proclaim Your truth, provide their needs, and direct their steps to bear fruit for Your glory. I ask this petition of You through the precious Name of our Lord and our Savior, Jesus. AMEN

    • Faithwalker

      Amen!

  • Darwin C

    I tried to include text from the Equal Access Act, which is the law that governs this situation. This law was written by christians to protect the religious rights of christian students and was signed by Reagan.

    Disqus decided it was spam. I’m not sure how to fix it. The law is relevant.

    I’ll try quoting smaller sections. Regardless, google “20 U.S. Code § 4071” or “The Equal Access Act.” It’s worth reading.

    Part (a) says it is unlawful for public secondary schools that receive Federal financial assistance to deny students the right to meet based in the religious, political, philosophical, or other content of the speech at such meetings.

    Part (c) lists the criteria, including (1) the meeting must be voluntary and student-initiated and most relevant to this situation “(5) nonschool persons may not direct, conduct, control, or regularly attend activities of student groups.”

    Students have to initiate and run religoius and philosophical clubs and non-students cannot lead or regularly participate.

    That is the law. It has been upheld by the Supreme Court. If you don’t like the law, work with Congress to revise it. But this law was written to protect the rights christian students and it actually does that well.

    Being expected to obey the law is not persecution.

  • Jesusdidnttap

    So you delete the lyrics to a Christian song on a Christian website but you leave the spewings of heathen. Glad to see your priorities are in order. Guess the Lord doesn’t get his Glory. Even on his own website.

  • james blue

    Are the students not able to attend after school study in church?

  • Reason2012

    They’re not atheists – search on public school islam and read all about the growing number of public schools where all kids are force-fed islam while Christianity is censored, and these atheists organizations continue to do nothing. The “athiests” and “lgbt” that complain about Christianity are actually pro-islam activists, seeking to remove Christianity one piece at a time while islam flourishes. Enemies of America infiltrating from within.

    • Brian Curtis

      That’s a nice load of accusations without a shred of evidence. Schools are indeed teaching students that Islam EXISTS, just as they do with any other major world religion (including Christianity). That’s hardly the same as preaching, which is what this school was trying to get away with.

      Christianity does not run our government, and it never will. It’s treated exactly the same as all other religions; and some have the gall to call that ‘oppression.’

    • TheKingOfRhye

      Do you think there are any actual atheists and/or LGBT people, or is it just Muslims everywhere in your world?

    • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

      search on public school islam and read all about the growing number of public schools where all kids are force-fed islam while Christianity is censored

      You keep telling people to do searches, yet you NEVER post any specific names of schools or what they are supposedly doing. If they’re so everpresent, why can’t you list some examples?

      That’s because there aren’t any.

      • Brian Curtis

        Perhaps it’s because he saw what happened when “Guest” tried to support that claim above.

  • Netizen_James

    Heather, as usual, your lies detract from the value of this article. Have you no journalistic integrity whatsoever?

    You wrote: “the school district will meet with the pastor to explain their “legal obligations,” which they believe prohibits him from sharing the gospel with students.”

    No, that’s complete and utter falsehood. This pastor is perfectly welcome to share whatever gospel he’d like with students who COME TO HIS CHURCH. This pastor is perfectly welcome to share the gospel by yelling at passers-by on the streetcorner if he wishes. That’s freedom for you.

    What he’s NOT free to do is use government facilities to target a captive audience of schoolchildren with his specific message. And the school-district officials are NOT free to use the authority of their public office to promote their own beliefs to the detriment of any competing beliefs.

    If some guy was coming into YOUR child’s school at lunchtime, and VOLUNTARILY talking to the kids about how there is no god, and how prayer is useless and stupid, would you be copacetic with that? You know you would not be. So here’s a excellent opportunity for some of that Jesus Wisdom – Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

    If you don’t want people coming into your child’s public school telling them that there’s no god, then you can’t countenance people coming into your child’s public school and telling them that YOUR god is the one and only god. That way, our government facilities are equally open to ALL taxpayers, regardless of their beliefs. The only appropriate stance of government toward spiritual beliefs is strict neutrality – promoting none, prohibiting none, endorsing none, enjoining none. That is the only way for government to respect the religious liberty of ALL citizens equally.

    Or do you fail to comprehend that non-Christians have EXACTLY the same rights as you do?

  • ISA41:10

    Schools are no longer learning facilities. They are liberal indoctrination centers.

    Public school is child abuse

    • Brian Curtis

      Switch that with ‘religious indoctrination’ and you’ll have something.

      • ISA41:10

        John Adams said the following “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other”

        • Brian Curtis

          “The Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.” –John Adams, Treaty of Tripoli (which has the force of U.S. law), 1797–

          • ISA41:10

            Really? Why is God mentioned in our Declaration of Independence? The Founders stated that the republican form of government formed by the Constitution can only work for a virtuous people.

            The USA was founded on Judea-Christian concepts, despite the LYING far-left’s talking points. When the first people from the European Continent stepped foot on the New Land, they were escaping from the Church of England.

            They weren’t free to hold different beliefs than the beliefs of that Church. What was common among them, was the Ten Commandments. No Islam, Buda, or whatever, was present in the early formation of this Nation.

            We do know the founders were men of conviction and morality, and for this reason they would still abhor even the idea of homosexuality much less be for marriage between two people of the same sex. If you think otherwise, you are delusional. In fact, they would be horrified we’re even having this conversation. In their time, the topic of homosexuality would be whispered among themselves, if at all, and certainly with no ladies present.

            Christianity has always been the prevalent religion of this Country. The majority of our Laws are based on Christianity. There is a big difference between those who follow Christ, and those who follow Mohamed.

          • Brian Curtis

            “The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or Mohammedan Nation.” –John Adams–
            “In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.” –Thomas Jefferson–
            “The civil government functions with complete success by the total separation of the Church from the State.” –James Madison–
            “No religious doctrine shall be established by law.” –Elbridge Gerry–

            Why is God mentioned in our Declaration of Independence?

            He isn’t. The ‘creator’ they referenced is a deist being, not the god of modern Christianity.
            And why ISN’T God or Jesus mentioned in the Constitution, the actual operating manual for our nation? The only mentions of religion are rules for keeping it out of government.

          • ISA41:10

            “He isn’t. The ‘creator’ they referenced is a deist being, not the god of modern Christianity.”

            That is a LIE!!! The majority of our founders WERE Christians!!!! Over 30% of the original founders Were Pastors!!!!

            “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”
            > Samuel Adams

            “No people will tamely surrender their Liberties, nor can any be easily subdued, when knowledge is diffused and virtue is preserved. On the Contrary, when People are universally ignorant, and debauched in their Manners, they will sink under their own weight without the Aid of foreign Invaders.”
            > Samuel Adams

            “The liberties of our country, the freedoms of our civil Constitution are worth defending at all hazards; it is our duty to defend them against all attacks. We have received them as a fair inheritance from our worthy ancestors. They purchased them for us with toil and danger and expense of treasure and blood. It will bring a mark of everlasting infamy on the present generation – enlightened as it is – if we should suffer them to be wrested from us by violence without a struggle, or to be cheated out of them by the artifices of designing men.”
            > Samuel Adams

            “Posterity! You will never know how much it cost the present Generation to preserve your Freedom! I hope you will make good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in Heaven, that I ever took half the Pains to preserve it.”
            – John Adams

            “Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself. There was never a democracy that did not commit suicide.”
            – John Adams, letter to John Taylor, 1814.

            “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people”. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
            – John Adams

            “Human passions unbridled by morality and religion…would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net.”
            – John Adams

            “Because power corrupts, society’s demands for moral authority and character increase as the importance of the position increases.”
            – John Adams

            “Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.”
            > Thomas Paine

            “I apprehend no danger to our country from a foreign foe. Our destruction, should it come at all, will be from another quarter. From the inattention of the people to the concerns of their government, from their carelessness and negligence, I must confess that I do apprehend some danger. I fear that they may place too implicit a confidence in their public servants, and fail properly to scrutinize their conduct; that in this way they may be made the dupes of designing men, and become the instruments of their own undoing. Make them intelligent, and they will be vigilant; give them the means of detecting the wrong, and they will apply the remedy.”
            > Daniel Webster

            “A country cannot subsist well without liberty, nor liberty without virtue.”
            > Daniel Webster

            “A primary object should be the education of our youth in the science of government. In a republic, what species of knowledge can be equally important? And what duty more pressing than communicating it to those who are to be the future guardians of the liberties of the country?”
            > George Washington

            “Experience teaches us that it is much easier to prevent an enemy from posting themselves than it is to dislodge them after they have got possession. ”
            > George Washington

            “However [political parties] may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion.”
            > George Washington

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            That is a LIE!!! The majority of our founders WERE Christians!!!!

            How does that show that “creator” refers to that specific god? Wouldn’t they be more specific if they intended to refer to a specific god?

            I see you’ve mastered copy & paste.

          • ISA41:10

            Come on man!!! I just told you the majority of our founders were Christians. The Declaration is talking about our Christian God, Jesus, PERIOD!!!

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            Come on man!!! I just told you the majority of our founders were Christians.

            And the head of Americans United for Separation of Church and State was a Christian for 25 years, yet he and his organization sued many, many times to have e.g. Christian symbols removed from public property.

            The Declaration is talking about our Christian God, Jesus, PERIOD!!!

            No, it isn’t. Jefferson wrote it, and he also had a copy of the bible where he removed all the miracle stories.

          • ISA41:10

            A Few Declarations of Founding Fathers and Early Statesmen on Jesus, Christianity, and the Bible

            (This list is by no means exhaustive; many other Founders could be included,
            and even with those who appear below, additional quotes could have been used.)

            John Adams

            SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; JUDGE; DIPLOMAT; ONE OF TWO SIGNERS
            OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; SECOND PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
            The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.1

            Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company: I mean hell.2

            The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.3

            Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited. . . . What a Eutopia – what a Paradise would this region be!4

            I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world.5

            John Quincy Adams

            SIXTH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES; DIPLOMAT; SECRETARY OF STATE; U. S. SENATOR;
            U. S. REPRESENTATIVE; “OLD MAN ELOQUENT”; “HELL-HOUND OF ABOLITION”
            My hopes of a future life are all founded upon the Gospel of Christ and I cannot cavil or quibble away [evade or object to]. . . . the whole tenor of His conduct by which He sometimes positively asserted and at others countenances [permits] His disciples in asserting that He was God.6
            The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the Divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made “bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God” [Isaiah 52:10].7

            In the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior. The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.8

            Samuel Adams
            SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; “FATHER OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION”; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS
            I . . . [rely] upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins.9
            The name of the Lord (says the Scripture) is a strong tower; thither the righteous flee and are safe [Proverbs 18:10]. Let us secure His favor and He will lead us through the journey of this life and at length receive us to a better.10

            I conceive we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world . . . that the confusions that are and have been among the nations may be overruled by the promoting and speedily bringing in the holy and happy period when the kingdoms of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and the people willingly bow to the scepter of Him who is the Prince of Peace.11

            He also called on the State of Massachusetts to pray that . . .

            the peaceful and glorious reign of our Divine Redeemer may be known and enjoyed throughout the whole family of mankind.12
            we may with one heart and voice humbly implore His gracious and free pardon through Jesus Christ, supplicating His Divine aid . . . [and] above all to cause the religion of Jesus Christ, in its true spirit, to spread far and wide till the whole earth shall be filled with His glory.13
            with true contrition of heart to confess their sins to God and implore forgiveness through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ our Savior.14
            Josiah Bartlett

            MILITARY OFFICER; SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE;
            JUDGE; GOVERNOR OF NEW HAMPSHIRE
            Called on the people of New Hampshire . . .
            to confess before God their aggravated transgressions and to implore His pardon and forgiveness through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ . . . [t]hat the knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ may be made known to all nations, pure and undefiled religion universally prevail, and the earth be fill with the glory of the Lord.15
            Gunning Bedford
            MILITARY OFFICER; MEMBER OF THE CONTINENTAL CONGRESS;
            SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; FEDERAL JUDGE
            To the triune God – the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost – be ascribed all honor and dominion, forevermore – Amen.16
            Elias Boudinot
            PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS; SIGNED THE PEACE TREATY TO END THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION; FIRST ATTORNEY ADMITTED TO THE U. S. SUPREME COURT BAR; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; DIRECTOR OF THE U. S. MINT
            Let us enter on this important business under the idea that we are Christians on whom the eyes of the world are now turned… [L]et us earnestly call and beseech Him, for Christ’s sake, to preside in our councils. . . . We can only depend on the all powerful influence of the Spirit of God, Whose Divine aid and assistance it becomes us as a Christian people most devoutly to implore. Therefore I move that some minister of the Gospel be requested to attend this Congress every morning . . . in order to open the meeting with prayer.17
            A letter to his daughter:

            You have been instructed from your childhood in the knowledge of your lost state by nature – the absolute necessity of a change of heart and an entire renovation of soul to the image of Jesus Christ – of salvation through His meritorious righteousness only – and the indispensable necessity of personal holiness without which no man shall see the Lord [Hebrews 12:14]. You are well acquainted that the most perfect and consummate doctrinal knowledge is of no avail without it operates on and sincerely affects the heart, changes the practice, and totally influences the will – and that without the almighty power of the Spirit of God enlightening your mind, subduing your will, and continually drawing you to Himself, you can do nothing. . . . And may the God of your parents (for many generations past) seal instruction to your soul and lead you to Himself through the blood of His too greatly despised Son, Who notwithstanding, is still reclaiming the world to God through that blood, not imputing to them their sins. To Him be glory forever!18

            For nearly half a century have I anxiously and critically studied that invaluable treasure [the Bible]; and I still scarcely ever take it up that I do not find something new – that I do not receive some valuable addition to my stock of knowledge or perceive some instructive fact never observed before. In short, were you to ask me to recommend the most valuable book in the world, I should fix on the Bible as the most instructive both to the wise and ignorant. Were you to ask me for one affording the most rational and pleasing entertainment to the inquiring mind, I should repeat, it is the Bible; and should you renew the inquiry for the best philosophy or the most interesting history, I should still urge you to look into your Bible. I would make it, in short, the Alpha and Omega of knowledge.19

            Jacob Broom
            LEGISLATOR; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION
            A letter to his son, James, attending Princeton University:
            I flatter myself you will be what I wish, but don’t be so much flatterer as to relax of your application – don’t forget to be a Christian. I have said much to you on this head, and I hope an indelible impression is made.20

            Charles Carroll
            SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; SELECTED AS DELEGATE TO THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; U. S. SENATOR
            On the mercy of my Redeemer I rely for salvation and on His merits, not on the works I have done in obedience to His precepts.21
            Grateful to Almighty God for the blessings which, through Jesus Christ Our Lord, He had conferred on my beloved country in her emancipation and on myself in permitting me, under circumstances of mercy, to live to the age of 89 years, and to survive the fiftieth year of independence, adopted by Congress on the 4th of July 1776, which I originally subscribed on the 2d day of August of the same year and of which I am now the last surviving signer.22

            I, Charles Carroll. . . . give and bequeath my soul to God who gave it, my body to the earth, hoping that through and by the merits, sufferings, and mediation of my only Savior and Jesus Christ, I may be admitted into the Kingdom prepared by God for those who love, fear and truly serve Him.23

            Congress, 1854
            The great, vital, and conservative element in our system is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and the divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.24
            Congress, U. S. House Judiciary Committee, 1854
            Had the people, during the Revolution, had a suspicion of any attempt to war against Christianity, that Revolution would have been strangled in its cradle… In this age, there can be no substitute for Christianity… That was the religion of the founders of the republic and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.25
            John Dickinson
            SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA; GOVERNOR OF DELAWARE; GENERAL IN THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION
            Rendering thanks to my Creator for my existence and station among His works, for my birth in a country enlightened by the Gospel and enjoying freedom, and for all His other kindnesses, to Him I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity.26
            [Governments] could not give the rights essential to happiness… We claim them from a higher source: from the King of kings, and Lord of all the earth.27

            Gabriel Duvall
            SOLDIER; JUDGE; SELECTED AS DELEGATE TO THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION;
            COMPTROLLER OF THE U. S. TREASURY; U. S. SUPREME COURT JUSTICE
            I resign my soul into the hands of the Almighty Who gave it, in humble hopes of His mercy through our Savior Jesus Christ.28
            Benjamin Franklin
            SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION; DIPLOMAT; PRINTER; SCIENTIST;
            SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA
            As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and His religion as He left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see.29
            The body of Benjamin Franklin, printer, like the cover of an old book, its contents torn out and stripped of its lettering and guilding, lies here, food for worms. Yet the work itself shall not be lost; for it will, as he believed, appear once more in a new and more beatiful edition, corrected and amended by the Author.30 (FRANKLIN’S EULOGY THAT HE WROTE FOR HIMSELF)

            Elbridge Gerry
            SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE;
            MEMBER OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS,
            GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
            He called on the State of Massachusetts to pray that . . .
            with one heart and voice we may prostrate ourselves at the throne of heavenly grace and present to our Great Benefactor sincere and unfeigned thanks for His infinite goodness and mercy towards us from our birth to the present moment for having above all things illuminated us by the Gospel of Jesus Christ, presenting to our view the happy prospect of a blessed immortality.31
            And for our unparalleled ingratitude to that Adorable Being Who has seated us in a land irradiated by the cheering beams of the Gospel of Jesus Christ . . . let us fall prostrate before offended Deity, confess sincerely and penitently our manifold sins and our unworthiness of the least of His Divine favors, fervently implore His pardon through the merits of our mediator.32
            And deeply impressed with a scene of our unparalleled ingratitude, let us contemplate the blessings which have flowed from the unlimited grave and favor of offended Deity, that we are still permitted to enjoy the first of Heaven’s blessings: the Gospel of Jesus Christ. 33

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            We already know you can copy & paste. That doesn’t change the fact that the guy who wrote the D of I thought the miracles in the bible should be excluded, and that this school was violating the constitution.

          • ISA41:10

            Does the truth bother the liberal? Our Founders WERE Christians!!! There was NO Islam. No Budda, no Hindu, etc during that time in America. ONLY Christians.

            To say otherwise shows your ignorance, PERIOD!! Or your public school indoctrination.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            What are you babbling about now? NONE of what you’ve scribbled pertains to anything.

          • ISA41:10

            The truth is ALWAYS the enemy with liberals!!

            ALWAYS!!!

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            Like the fact that Jefferson wrote the declaration of independence, and also edited the bible to remove all the miracles.

            I’m so glad you admire the works of the man who wrote the D of I and chopped the magic parts out of the bible.

          • ISA41:10

            That is a LIE!!!

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            No, it’s true, look up the Jefferson bible.

          • ISA41:10

            Let me repeat it for the liberal………….”That is a LIE!!!”

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            No, the Jefferson Bible is a real thing. Search for it, or remain totally ignorant.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Would you call someone who said things like this a Christian?

            “The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy, absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”

            “That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of
            men more learned than myself in that lore.”

            (Both said by Jefferson)

          • ISA41:10

            America’s first constitution was the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut. The Puritan framers of this document required that each aspect of it be grounded in Scripture. Other constitutions to follow contained many similarities to this one.

            At least 50 of the 55 signers of the U.S. Constitution were orthodox Christians.

            There is no doubt that the concept of our Constitutional checks and balances system is a direct result of the biblical doctrine of the sinfulness of mankind. All of our founders understood the importance of this doctrine to the social order.

            America’s foundational idea of The Rule of Law rather than the authority of man traces back to the Old Testament, beginning with the Ten Commandments.

            The idea that all men are created equal as enshrined in the Declaration of Independence is a biblical doctrine.

            The notion of the sovereign authority of God (as mentioned in the Mayflower Compact, the Declaration of Independence, all 50 state constitutions, our currency, etc.)–rather than the sovereignty of the state–is certainly biblical.

            The existence of moral absolutes (a biblical concept) is an important idea in our Declaration of Independence–specifically, self-evident truths and unalienable rights from the Creator.

            Many other aspects of our laws come directly from the Bible–for example the judicial, legislative and executive branches trace to Isaiah 33:22. Fair trials with witnesses have numerous Old and New Testament support.

            Regarding civil liberty, founding father John Adams (and others) emphasized 2 Corinthians 3:17 as the basis for American civil liberty. The slogan on the Liberty Bell is “Proclaim Liberty throughout the land unto all the Inhabitants Thereof” is from Leviticus 15:10. Kennedy and Newcombe argue that Jesus himself was the greatest civil libertarian of all time.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            And Boston hanged Quakers for heresy.

          • ISA41:10

            And I just PROVED to you that America was Founded by Christians and the DIC mention of God IS the Christian God, PERIOD!!!!

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            No, you didn’t. The D of I was written by a man who didn’t believe Jesus was god.

          • ISA41:10

            More PROOF all liberals are LIARS!!!

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            Nope, you’re the liar.

          • Netizen_James

            No, sorry, Jefferson, who wrote the DOI, was not a Christian.
            Our founders wrote and ratified our godless Constitution, which contains ZERO mentions of the word ‘God’, ZERO mentions of the name ‘Jesus’, and ZERO mentions of the title ‘Christ’, on purpose, and for the exact same reason that Jefferson wrote the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, and the exact same reason that James Madison wrote the establishment clause of the first amendment.

            Yes, most of the founders were Christians – mostly Episcopalians and Presbyterians, with a few Baptists, Quakers, and Catholics thrown in. But they were all well familiar with the danger of mixing civil and ecclesiastical authority – were all well familiar with the execution of the Quaker ‘Boston Martyrs’ by the Puritans, well familiar with the horrors of the English Civil Wars over whether Protestants or Catholics would rule England. And the secularists like Jefferson and Madison and Washington were adamant that their new nation avoid such nonsense by keeping government secular, and not promoting ANY religious doctrine as the ‘officially correct’ one. We ignore their wisdom at our peril.

          • ISA41:10

            The Founders As Christians

            (Note: this is a representative list only, there are many other quotes that could be listed)

            Samuel Adams
            Father of the American Revolution, Signer of the Declaration of Independence
            I . . . recommend my Soul to that Almighty Being who gave it, and my body I commit to the dust, relying upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins.

            Will of Samuel Adams

            Charles Carroll
            Signer of the Declaration of Independence
            On the mercy of my Redeemer I rely for salvation and on His merits; not on the works I have done in obedience to His precepts.

            From an autographed letter in our possession written by Charles Carroll to Charles W. Wharton, Esq., on September 27, 1825, from Doughoragen, Maryland.

            William Cushing
            First Associate Justice Appointed by George Washington to the Supreme Court
            Sensible of my mortality, but being of sound mind, after recommending my soul to Almighty God through the merits of my Redeemer and my body to the earth . . .

            Will of William Cushing

            John Dickinson
            Signer of the Constitution
            Rendering thanks to my Creator for my existence and station among His works, for my birth in a country enlightened by the Gospel and enjoying freedom, and for all His other kindnesses, to Him I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity.

            Will of John Dickinson

            John Hancock
            Signer of the Declaration of Independence
            I John Hancock, . . . being advanced in years and being of perfect mind and memory-thanks be given to God-therefore calling to mind the mortality of my body and knowing it is appointed for all men once to die [Hebrews 9:27], do make and ordain this my last will and testament…Principally and first of all, I give and recommend my soul into the hands of God that gave it: and my body I recommend to the earth . . . nothing doubting but at the general resurrection I shall receive the same again by the mercy and power of God. . .

            Will of John Hancock

            Patrick Henry
            Governor of Virginia, Patriot
            This is all the inheritance I can give to my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.

            Will of Patrick Henry

            John Jay
            First Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court
            Unto Him who is the author and giver of all good, I render sincere and humble thanks for His manifold and unmerited blessings, and especially for our redemption and salvation by His beloved son. He has been pleased to bless me with excellent parents, with a virtuous wife, and with worthy children. His protection has companied me through many eventful years, faithfully employed in the service of my country; His providence has not only conducted me to this tranquil situation but also given me abundant reason to be contented and thankful. Blessed be His holy name!

            Will of John Jay

            Daniel St. Thomas Jenifer
            Signer of the Constitution
            In the name of God, Amen. I, Daniel of Saint Thomas Jenifer . . . of dispossing mind and memory, commend my soul to my blessed Redeemer. . .

            Will of Daniel St. Thomas Jenifer

            Henry Knox
            Revolutionary War General, Secretary of War
            First, I think it proper to express my unshaken opinion of the immortality of my soul or mind; and to dedicate and devote the same to the supreme head of the Universe – to that great and tremendous Jehovah, – Who created the universal frame of nature, worlds, and systems in number infinite . . . To this awfully sublime Being do I resign my spirit with unlimited confidence of His mercy and protection . . .

            Will of Henry Knox

            John Langdon
            Signer of the Constitution
            In the name of God, Amen. I, John Langdon, . . . considering the uncertainty of life and that it is appointed unto all men once to die [Hebrews 9:27], do make, ordain and publish this my last will and testament in manner following, that is to say-First: I commend my soul to the infinite mercies of God in Christ Jesus, the beloved Son of the Father, who died and rose again that He might be the Lord of the dead and of the living . . . professing to believe and hope in the joyful Scripture doctrine of a resurrection to eternal life . . .

            Will of John Langdon

            John Morton
            Signer of the Declaration of Independence
            With an awful reverence to the great Almighty God, Creator of all mankind, I, John Morton . . . being sick and weak in body but of sound mind and memory-thanks be given to Almighty God for the same, for all His mercies and favors-and considering the certainty of death and the uncertainty of the times thereof, do, for the settling of such temporal estate as it hath pleased God to bless me with in this life . . .

            Will of John Morton

            Robert Treat Paine
            Signer of the Declaration of Independence
            I desire to bless and praise the name of God most high for appointing me my birth in a land of Gospel Light where the glorious tidings of a Savior and of pardon and salvation through Him have been continually sounding in mine ears.

            Robert Treat Paine, The Papers of Robert Treat Paine, Stephen Riley and Edward Hanson, editors (Boston: Massachusetts Historical Society, 1992), Vol. I, p. 48, March/April, 1749.

            [W]hen I consider that this instrument contemplates my departure from this life and all earthly enjoyments and my entrance on another state of existence, I am constrained to express my adoration of the Supreme Being, the Author of my existence, in full belief of his providential goodness and his forgiving mercy revealed to the world through Jesus Christ, through whom I hope for never ending happiness in a future state, acknowledging with grateful remembrance the happiness I have enjoyed in my passage through a long life. . .

            Will of Robert Treat Paine

            Charles Cotesworth Pinckney
            Signer of the Constitution
            To the eternal, immutable, and only true God be all honor and glory, now and forever, Amen!. . .

            Will of Charles Cotesworth Pinckney

            Rufus Putnam

            Revolutionary War General, First Surveyor General of the United States
            [F]irst, I give my soul to a holy, sovereign God Who gave it in humble hope of a blessed immortality through the atonement and righteousness of Jesus Christ and the sanctifying grace of the Holy Spirit. My body I commit to the earth to be buried in a decent Christian manner. I fully believe that this body shall, by the mighty power of God, be raised to life at the last day; ‘for this corruptable (sic) must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality.’ [I Corinthians 15:53]

            Will of Rufus Putnam

            Benjamin Rush
            Signer of the Declaration of Independence
            My only hope of salvation is in the infinite, transcendent love of God manifested to the world by the death of His Son upon the cross. Nothing but His blood will wash away my sins. I rely exclusively upon it. Come, Lord Jesus! Come quickly!

            Benjamin Rush, The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, George Corner, editor (Princeton: Princeton University Press for the American Philosophical Society, 1948), p. 166, Travels Through Life, An Account of Sundry Incidents & Events in the Life of Benjamin Rush.

            Roger Sherman
            Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Signer of the Constitution
            I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. . . . that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are a revelation from God. . . . that God did send His own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners, and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the Gospel offer.

            Lewis Henry Boutell, The Life of Roger Sherman (Chicago: A. C. McClurg and Company, 1896), pp. 272-273.

            Richard Stockton
            Signer of the Declaration of Independence
            I think it proper here not only to subscribe to the entire belief of the great and leading doctrines of the Christian religion, such as the Being of God, the universal defection and depravity of human nature, the divinity of the person and the completeness of the redemption purchased by the blessed Savior, the necessity of the operations of the Divine Spirit, of Divine Faith, accompanied with an habitual virtuous life, and the universality of the divine Providence, but also . . . that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom; that the way of life held up in the Christian system is calculated for the most complete happiness that can be enjoyed in this mortal state; that all occasions of vice and immorality is injurious either immediately or consequentially, even in this life; that as Almighty God hath not been pleased in the Holy Scriptures to prescribe any precise mode in which He is to be publicly worshiped, all contention about it generally arises from want of knowledge or want of virtue.

            Will of Richard Stockton

            Jonathan Trumbull Sr.
            Governor of Connecticut, Patriot
            Principally and first of all, I bequeath my soul to God the Creator and Giver thereof, and body to the Earth . . . nothing doubting but that I shall receive the same again at the General Resurrection thro the power of Almighty God; believing and hoping for eternal life thro the merits of my dear, exalted Redeemer Jesus Christ.

            Will of Jonathan Trumbull

            John Witherspoon
            Signer of the Declaration of Independence
            I entreat you in the most earnest manner to believe in Jesus Christ, for there is no salvation in any other [Acts 4:12]. . . . [I]f you are not reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, if you are not clothed with the spotless robe of His righteousness, you must forever perish.

            John Witherspoon, The Works of John Witherspoon (Edinburgh: J. Ogle, 1815), Vol. V, pp. 276, 278, The Absolute Necessity of Salvation Through Christ, January 2, 1758.

          • Netizen_James

            1) the DOI is not the source of American jurisprudence or government – the DOI was a letter to the world as to why we were rejecting the Scriptural doctrine of the ‘divine right of kings’ and replacing that with the Enlightenment doctrine of ‘consent of the governed’ as the wellspring from which civil authority comes. The DOI created no government, established no legislative or executive offices, and is fundamentally irrelevant to judicial decision-making.

            2) Whose god is mentioned in the DOI? The word ‘Jesus’ does not appear even once in that document. No mention of YHWH/Jehovah, or Odin, or Ra, or Isis, or Baal, or Shiva either. There is a phrase ‘nature’s god’ in the preamble, but that doesn’t refer to the god of Abraham and Moses, that’s a reference to the god of deism (Jefferson, as everyone knows, was not a Christian as we understand that word today) Jefferson thought of ‘nature’s god’ as a creator that started the ball rolling, but then stepped out of the way and does not interfere with ‘day-to-day operations’. If you didn’t know that Thomas Jefferson rejected miracles like a ‘virgin birth’ or ‘raising the dead’, rejected the divinity of Jesus, and rejected the entire concept of ‘trinitarianism’, then you need to learn some history.

            The meat of DOI is this:
            “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed”

            Note carefully that Jefferson did not say ‘THE creator’. Note that Jefferson did not say ‘OUR creator’. He wrote “THEIR creator”, cleverly recognizing that all individuals are free to conceptualize ‘creator’ however they’d like.

  • Garden of Love

    If the school allows a chess club to meet, does that mean it’s trying to “favor” one pastime over another? This anti-Christian crusade is getting very silly.

    • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

      “Pasttimes” aren’t protected by the constitution; religion is, and this was ruled unconstitutional 70 years ago.

      • Chet

        Christianity is not “religion”, but, rather, all about one’s relationship to Holy God Almighty via the Lord Jesus Christ of Calvary as His only begotten Son.

        • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

          No, it really is a religion under US law. Word games don’t change that.

          • Chet

            One can attempt to diminish or negate man’s accountability to Holy God via any number of means. Yet, it changes nothing. Christianity is all about relationship. “Religion” transforms no lives for the better, breaks no bondage, delivers none from booze, drugs etc., restores no split families, heals no broken hearts, forgives no one’s SIN and most assuredly, offers no one the joy of eternal life at the end of one’s days. Because of God Almighty’s love and mercy all this is made available to each and every one of us sinners via repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ of Calvary. And in none other… “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this, the judgment” Hebrews 9:27, Holy Bible…

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            Is this “speaking in tongues”? because it sure doesn’t make sense in English.

          • Chet

            Most anyone with a minor understanding of English lingo can indeed understand. It’s not the manner of what is said or word usage that offends, it’s the personal accountability thing that strikes a nerve.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            No, it’s the silly word games that Christianity isn’t a religion. If it isn’t, it gets no first amendment protection.

          • Chet

            Christianity is in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ of Calvary and his finished work on behalf of all us sinners. And though deniers, indifferent folk and outright haters mock and blaspheme and attempt to block his good news message via any means possible, the Word of God abides forever… No word games needed. Thanks for the opportunity to share God’s love and have a blessed day!

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            Like I said, word games don’t count.

            If Christianity isn’t a religion, it gets no first amendment protection. Churches pay taxes.

          • Chet

            And like I said, one can be super “religious” but lost and on his way to eternal Hell. It’s all about relationship, bottom line, one’s relationship to holy God (his Father in Heaven) via the Lord Jesus Christ of Calvary. And in none other… So, for a lack of better description, one much easier on man’s brain, the Constitution calls such “religion”. Now, a little test for you, Sir: Find someone you know who is a Christian (not a CINO) Christian in name only, and inquire of him/her if they are religious or do they somehow have a personal relationship with their heavenly Father since they’ve been saved via Christ. Please get back with me at such point with a truthful response. Deal?

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            And like I said, one can be super “religious” but lost and on his way to eternal Hell.

            So what? That has nothing to do with the fact that Christianity is legally a religion in the US.

          • Richard Donahue

            I gave you a source that says they can so give me your source that says they cant?

            And you lied about making a conclusion that it was a false report and you cant admit but you like to scold religious people about breaking man made laws. That’s real funny.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            I gave you a source that says they can

            No you didn’t. You quoted “While the Constitution says that government cannot establish religion, it also says that the government cannot inhibit religious freedom — a provision that allows students, AND TO A LESSER DEGREE, TEACHERS, to express their faith openly in school.”

            But you wrote “Because I did not know school officials could not participate in the voluntary meetings but if the student asked them to they can.”

            There, you’re saying teachers can join in voluntary meetings if invited, but that’s not true. You’re ignoring this part (which you also quoted), which explicitly rules that out:
            When acting in their official capacities as representatives of the state, teachers, school administrators, and other school employees are prohibited by the Establishment Clause from encouraging or discouraging prayer, and from actively participating in such activity with students.

            And you lied about making a conclusion that it was a false report

            It wasn’t a false report, you’re just interpreting it incorrectly. A general statement of “a provision that allows students, AND TO A LESSER DEGREE, TEACHERS, to express their faith openly in school” doesn’t allow teachers to do something that’s explicitly ruled out elsewhere in the same document.

          • Richard Donahue

            Getting the run around again you know I quoted about three times they can. Again what is your source they cant? And I will keep asking you until you properly answer my questions concerning your statements. The more you keep avoid my request the more you reveal your just a liar.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            Again what is your source they cant?

            When acting in their official capacities as representatives of the state, teachers, school administrators, and other school employees are prohibited by the Establishment Clause from encouraging or discouraging prayer, and from actively participating in such activity with students.

            Can you see that part yet?

          • Richard Donahue

            My goodness are you still talking about prayer? Anyway were did this source come from?

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            It’s from what YOU copy & pasted 4 days ago quoting Charles Haynes (who was quoting U.S. Department of Education guidelines issued in 2003), near the end.

            Your post starting with “Seems like the times are changing read this what I found online.”

          • Chet

            And my point is that Christians will no longer buckle at the knees in the face of liberal adversity only to drop and roll over. No Sir, no more, and we have an administration actively comprised of and supportive of Christian and Jewish sentiment. No one in this WH or staff declares America is no more a Christian nation. Have a blessed day and should you respond you’ll likely have the last say…

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            And my point is that Christians will no longer buckle at the knees in the face of liberal adversity only to drop and roll over.

            Well, they dropped and rolled over here, because the law is clear and selfish Christians can’t push their superstition in public schools during lunch hour.

          • Chet

            If Christianity is merely superstitious and non existent, why is feared so? In fact, why do haters hate the Lord and His own if such is but fantasy?

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            You’ve mistaken lack of belief and opposition to violating the first amendment as hatred. If selfish Christians like this Ohio pastor didn’t violate the rights of students, there’d be no issue.

          • Chet

            Haters miss no opportunity to mock and wherever possible shut down the work of the Lord. Somehow, “The eyes of the Lord are in every place, beholding the evil and the good” Proverbs 15:3, Holy Bible, has never been revealed to such. And as the Devil has his way, working via his willing and unknowing servants, less and less will learn of their own personal accountability before Holy God. Thus, God’s love for all us sinners and his simple plan of salvation, available only in His only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ of Calvary, is muffled. Subsequently, souls enter Hell without knowledge of such place and how it could easily have been avoided by any and all us sinners.

            And we who have been so redeemed via God’s great mercy and grace will no longer stand still and allow men and women to needlessly die eternally lost. Soul winning is what God has called us to do in his Great Commission as found in Mark 16 and Matthew 28. Such is our order and the commission takes a back seat to no man nor any man’s misintrepretation of the US Constitution, which, as framed, never sought to separate God from this nation. Rather, the nation is not to be Catholic, nor Baptist, nor Methodist.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            Well, I and a lot of other people just want this public school to follow long-established constitutional rights. You can whine about your religion all you like.

          • Chet

            No whining here, dude, we believers are all voluntary followers of Christ who will indeed Stand Up, Stand Up For Jesus Ye Soldiers Of The Cross… And should we be faced with man’s ire, so be it…

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            I was referring to your whining that your religion isn’t a religion.

          • Chet

            Have it your way as you have the last say, changing nothing…

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            It IS a religion. Word games don’t change that.

          • Chet

            One’s “religion” will never save one’s lost soul. One’s relationship to Holy God via His only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ of Calvary, will ensure one’s salvation and eternal life…

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            One’s “religion” will never save one’s lost soul.

            Yawn. Christianity is a religion.

          • Chet

            Yawn, or no, your freedom of choice, believe or no, is what counts for eternity. And you, alone make the decision.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            Because your god tortures people for eternity for having an erroneous opinion.

          • Chet

            No, such is not the case. God loves all us sinners and he proved it in sending his only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, to the Cross of Calvary to suffer and bleed and die so that all man’s myriad SINS could be atoned for.

            Each of us sinners is accountable for our innumerable SINS. Yet, the penalty for all such was paid for at Calvary as the precious blood of Christ was required to redeem fallen mankind. Now, all each of us need do is say yes to Christ via repentance and faith in his atoning work and all our innumerable SINS are taken away forever from our accountability.

            And get this, W2, not only are one’s countless SINS forgiven but even forgotten in the eyes of God as we, individually, are clothed in the righteousness of Christ, and in Him, alone. We will never forget or own SINS but God, for Christ’s sake truly does. Man, you can’t beat such an offer like this anywhere… Man’s unrighteousness exchanged for Christ’s righteousness…

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            I’ll take that as a “yes”.

          • Richard Donahue

            How did he violate their rights? Did he force them in any way?

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            “Force” is not necessary. Read some opinions on public schools and religion, like McCollum v. Board of Education, Engel v. Vitale, or Santa Fe v. Doe. All were voluntary, none were forced, all were unconstitutional.

          • Richard Donahue

            Actually the true reason why was labeled unconstitutional it was
            “McCollum, an atheist, objected to the religious classes, stating that her son James was ostracized for not attending them. After complaints to school officials to stop offering these classes went unheeded” Wikipedia,

            Being “ostracized” is not against the constitution and it would have to be proven that her child was badly treated.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            All prayer laws struck down were, supposedly, voluntary. A lack of force didn’t help.

          • Richard Donahue

            But I don’t understand its just a superstition why fight it?

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            Because it violates the rights of people’s children and their parents. Why do you WANT public schools to decide what religion to teach?

          • Richard Donahue

            How does it violate their rights?

            Many schools teach religion only on the basis of history you cant teach American history without teaching its religious roots. If the student ask a personal religious question from a teacher whether they are religious or not that teacher then has the right to answer and they do.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            I’d say you’re just being deliberately stupid now.

    • Croquet_Player

      No. If a school permits extracurricular student clubs, such as a chess club, then students may start a religious club. The key points being that it must be student initiated and led, voluntary, and school employees (faculty, administration, etc.) may observe but not participate, nor may individuals from outside the school lead, direct, or regularly attend. In this case an outside individual (a pastor, but it could have been anyone, of any religion) initiated and was leading a religious group at the school, which is illegal. It is not “anti-Christian” to protect students’ constitutional rights.

      • Canis Vulpes

        Well said.

  • The Constitution is clear enough. A public, taxpayer supported institution may not recognize an establishment of religion.

    Here’s the test and the reason why it is forbidden: Would Christians be fine with a Muslim doing what Bauman is doing? How about a Hindu. A Baha’i? Citizens of those beliefs pay their taxes to support the school just like Christians, but folks on this blog know as well as I that they would not be allowed to do the same thing. A citizen who happens to believe in Islam is every bit a citizen with all the rights and privileges enjoyed by Christians.

  • Chet

    School district authorities and attorney, simply ignore the FFRF and tell them to go pack sand. The most they can do is bring suit, and with such, they may win or may lose. Should they win, the school might be forced to close and turn all the students out into the street. That said, immediately thereafter the parents will revolt and the school will reopen and life can resume normalcy. Don’t fear haters as God Almighty is in full control and His will will be done despite such…

    • Guzzman

      Luckily, attorneys for the school decided to follow the Constitution rather than your advice to “simply ignore the FFRF and tell them to go pack sand.”

      Attorneys for the school district reviewed FFRF’s legal analysis and have banned Pastor Bauman from the school campus. School officials met with Bauman and informed him he cannot lead or attend student group activities in the district’s schools and he cannot proselytize to students during the school day.

      • Chet

        And why the school’s are so afraid is beyond me, dude… We ought to fear God rather than man for sure… The Holy Bible study was voluntary…

        • Guzzman

          The “school’s are so afraid” because it is illegal for a public school to advance or promote religion. Whether “The Holy Bible study was voluntary” is irrelevant. The courts have ruled, going as far back as McCollum v. Board of Education (1948), that voluntariness does not excuse a constitutional violation (also see Lee v. Wiseman; Abington School District v. Schempp). Children are remarkably vulnerable to social pressure, from peers, and especially from adults – in this case school officials and church leaders. A child who is approached by a school principal or a pastor is going to feel intense pressure to conform to what the authority figure wants, and that is why the courts have said these situations can never truly be “voluntary.”

          Giving access to students by an outside religious group for purposes of evangelizing is unconstitutional at any time during the school day. We know this because these very circumstances have already been litigated. And nevermind that this illegal activity was done under false pretenses, without parental knowledge or consent. The pastor falsely characterized the religious classes as a student-run Bible study club. That is a violation of the Equal Access Act because the classes were conducted by an outsider and were not student-initiated or student-run as required by the Act.

          • Chet

            Aw, hogwash. Kids are going to be influenced regardless, either of worldly things, to include the influence of the Devil, or they’ll be positively influenced by the Word of God as revealed in his Word, the Holy Bible. Don’t be afraid of what saith the Lord but learn to be wise thereunto and have your eyes opened to revealed truth as never before. Jesus saves from the guttermost (me) to the uttermost, no exceptions, no turn-aways, ever. Thanks for this opportunity to share God’s love via the Christ of Calvary and have a blessed day!

  • John Grotts

    I be thinking, a whole lot of people need to READ the U.S. Constitution.

  • Irondoor

    I assume the students would be allowed to initiate an air rifle club, with the instructors being volunteers from the community and the NRA supplying the instructional materials, air rifles and ammunition. Similar to a chess club that students initiate and have some local chess experts volunteer to come in and teach chess and bring their chess boards. Or maybe a checkers club, or a bridge club, or a tiddlywinks club. If you get my drift. Well, I guess most of these would be allowed, but I am sure that one of them would not be. Air rifles being similar to a Bible, you know.

    • TheKingOfRhye

      Air rifles, chess, and religious instruction.

      How does that song go….one of these things is not like the others.