Cross Removed From Michigan Hillside Following Complaint

JACKSON, Mich. — A cross that has stood on a Michigan hillside since 1950 has been removed following a complaint from a local resident who asserted that crosses shouldn’t be displayed on state property.

While the cross is displayed atop Sackrider Hill in the Waterloo Recreation Area, it belongs to the Grass Lake Ministerial Association, which holds a permit to erect the display on state property. Residents who hike up the hill will find it at the top overlooking I-94.

According to a YouTube video by Brian Kruger, who hosts a local “Guess What I Found Series” to highlight landmarks in the area, local congregations have held a sunrise service every year atop the hill since the 1930’s. Evangelist George Bennard, who penned the hymn “The Old Rugged Cross,” was a participant of one of the services.

“The cross was brought up by the congregations. Every year they’d bring [it] up and set it here, and then they’d take it down and do it again next year,” he explained.

In 1950, they decided to make the cross permanent, and in 1968, after the cross was stolen on Halloween, the Department of Natural Resources (DNR) helped to replace the structure.

In the 1990’s, after a local newspaper published a photograph of the cross, some residents complained that the symbol violated the “separation of Church and State,” resulting in pushback from those who supported the display. As it was concluded that no constitutional malady existed, the cross was allowed to stay.

However, the conflict was recently reignited after a local resident likewise complained about the presence of the cross on state land. The Michigan Association of Civil Rights Activists asked the DNR to “remove the offending” symbol, according to MLive.com.

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Those in support of the cross again pushed back, creating a petition asking the DNR to save the display as it did in the 1990’s.

“The cross is a recognized landmark, has been a meaningful place for people to gather throughout history, and is part of many residents’ personal memories,” local resident Billie Dawson told reporters. “Rather than let one voice tear it down, thousands are speaking up.”

However, following a meeting with state officials, the Grass Lake Ministerial Association decided that it would be best to relocate the structure.

“Basically, it came down to, there was a cross that we didn’t own that was on land that we did own,” DNR Public Information Officer John Pepin told the Lansing State Journal. “We worked with the people that owned the cross and they voted to support removing it to a permanent location.”

The decision disappointed even Attorney General Bill Schuette, who said in a statement, “Michigan’s public landscape reflects its rich and diverse history, having been settled both by original Native American tribes and missionaries. Two of the counties of the state bear the name of such missionaries …”

“The law does not require a dismantling of our history, driving out the identity of the Michigan people from public spaces,” he contended.


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  • The Skeptical Chymist

    I would think there would be plenty of locations on private property, where the landowners would be happy to accept the cross. That’s where it should be.

    • Susan Perelka

      Until you decide we can’t do that anymore either. We see the trend of how you get us to remain silent in one area, and then you attack another. It’s never enough until you silence us totally. Not very TOLERANT of you.

      I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ, it is the POWER of God to save!

      Abba Father, Awaken Your church to stand boldly against those who are attempting to silence us from declaring the good news You offer mankind. Grant us boldness and confidence to proclaim Your truth. Unite us and strengthen us, to continue to tell those in darkness, the way to come into the light through Jesus. The gates of hell shall not prevail against Your church. Let Gods people repent, turn from their wicked ways, and You promised us THEN You will heal our nation. Convict our hearts, open our eyes, grant us discernment and wisdom, and then give us success to tell the lost Your truth. To counter the lies of the devil, to set our lamps on high for all to see. Thank You Father, for the help You will give us. Thank You for Your mercy and Your forgiveness. Thank You for Your Beloved Son Jesus Christ. I ask this petition of You in the name of our Lord and Savior, Jesus. AMEN

      Rise up people of God, stand Your ground, fight the good fight of faith!

      • The Skeptical Chymist

        So, I assume you’d be happy to have a statue of Satan put up on public land? If not, maybe you’re the one who is being intolerant. I’d like to keep our public lands free from all religious symbols.

        • Susan Perelka

          I am not afraid of a statute of satan or even if they pray to him publicly. In the bible, the prophet Elijah has a “public” face off with hundreds of the prophets of Baal (a pagan god). Elijah even let them go first and go on and on for hours. Nothing happened. Then Elijah got up, prayed, and God answered.

          Greater is He who is in me (the Holy Spirit), then he (satan) who is in the world.

          So go ahead, put them up. But we will put up ours also. Let’s see Who is more powerful. No one is more powerful than the One True God. Jesus Christ is LORD.

          You’ve got your secular museums, we have our christian ones. You have your secular textbooks, we have our christian ones. You have your secular movies, we have our christian ones. You have your secular news, we have our christian ones.

          BRING IT ON!

          • ThatsWhatRosieSays

            Thank you so much for the strength and truth of your witness and testimony for our Lord Jesus Christ! We are not called to be popular or well liked or even well respected. We are called to be faithful stewards of the great & awesome grace God has given to us through Jesus Christ. It is evident you are a blessed & committed Christian soldier; and I salute you & praise God for the work He’s doing in and through you! .

          • Susan Perelka

            Jesus has overcome the world! Greater is HE Who is in us, than he who is in the world. JESUS is KING of kings, and LORD or lords and we stand in FAITH, united in the Spirit. AMEN

          • Tim Matter

            Susan Perelka- Re: the Elijah story. What would happen if anybody would offer the same challenge to 450 Christian preachers? Pretty much the same thing. No fire from heaven, then lots of excuses, excuses, excuses.

          • Susan Perelka

            Abba Father, I stand before Your throne, in response to this person’s mocking of Your Holy name. LORD, show them Who is really in control. Rise up against those who are trying to silence YOUR truth. This is not just a mocking of Your people, but of YOUR name. Let them see Who is the One True Sovereign God. Give us victory in Jesus Mighty Name. AMEN!

          • ♥LadyInChrist♥InGodITrust♥

            In Jesus Name I agree with this Prayer. And I add Abba Father open the eyes of the person behind the username “Tim Matter” before it is too late.Open this persons ears before it is too late. Open this persons understanding before it is too late. Open this persons heart before it is too late. In Jesus Name Amen.

          • Susan Perelka

            AMEN!

          • Rhesus Peanut Buttercup

            You know there’s really some perspective that’s lacking, here. Susan, I
            don’t see Tim mocking God. He’s asking a question, but no one is
            blaspheming or doing anything inappropriate.

          • Susan Perelka

            Yes, he is mocking God and my prayer stands!

          • Rhesus Peanut Buttercup

            I’m sorry you feel that way. I myself see no mocking, only disagreement.

      • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

        Until you decide we can’t do that anymore either.

        You can’t just make up what you think other people will do; that’s just a straw man attack.

        • Susan Perelka

          My prayer and comments stand as they are. Do with them as you wish.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            They have been doing it and we are seeing it.

            Got any specific examples?

          • Susan Perelka

            Let the blind lead the blind, and they will both fall in a ditch. Jesus says to HIS people, as for you, come and follow Me. WE are disciples of Jesus Christ. We follow HIM alone! NOT interested in your circular arguments any longer. I am calling upon ALMIGHTY GOD to fight against those who mock Him and who are attempting to silence HIS people from speaking the gospel message that is the power of God to save people. You have decided to stand against HIM, that is your choice, which you may freely turn away from any time, while God still gives you breath in your lungs. When you fight against His people, you are really fighting against HIM, a losing battel. We have decided to seek shelter under HIS wings. I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ!!!

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            So you have NO specific examples of other people trying to stop Christians from putting up symbols on private property…

            Looks like you were lying, then.

          • Susan Perelka

            Psalm 62

            My soul waits in silence for God only;
            From Him is my salvation.
            He only is my rock and my salvation,
            My stonghold; I shall not be greatly shaken.

            How long will you assail a man,
            That you may murder him, all of you,
            Like a leaning wall, like a tottering fence?
            They have counseled only to thrust him down from his high position:
            They delight in falsehood;
            They bless with their mouth,
            But inwardly they curse.

            My soul wait in silence for God only,
            For my hope is from HIM.
            He only is my rock and my salvation,
            My stronghold; I shall not be shaken.
            On God my salvation and my glory rests;
            The rock of my strength, my refuge is in God.
            Trust in Him at all times, O people;
            Pour out Your heart before Him;
            GOD IS A REFUGE FOR US.

            Men of low degree are only vanity and men of rank are a lie;
            In the balances they go up;
            They are together lighter than breath.
            Do not trust in oppression
            And do not vainly hope in robbery;
            If riches increase, do not set your heart upon them,

            Once God has spoken;
            Twice I have heard this,
            THAT POWER BELONGS TO GOD;
            And lovingkindness is Yours, O Lord,
            For You recompense a man according to his work.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            O Mighty Lord Satan, by whom all things are set free, I cast myself utterly into thine arms and place myself unreservedly under thy all powerful protection. Comfort me and deliver me from all of the hindrances and snares of those who wish to harm me, both seen and unseen.

            Visit justice and vengeance upon those who seek my destruction. Render them powerless and devastated. Direct their malice to return upon them tenfold and to destroy them who would resent my being.

            Fill my soul with thy invincible power, strengthen me, that I may persevere in my service, and act as an agent of thy works and a vessel of thy will.

            This I ask in your name, almighty and ineffable Lord Satan who liveth and reigneth forevermore.

            Ave Satanas

          • ♥LadyInChrist♥InGodITrust♥

            Amen!

        • Lily Of The Valley

          Sounds like a “slippery slope argument” to me.

      • Rhesus Peanut Buttercup

        You won’t see it this way, but that is done for everyone’s benefit..if they allow icons from one religion in public areas they have to allow all of them. The solution is to put it on private property. Everyone still gets to see it that way.

        • Susan Perelka

          God alone knows what is best for everyone’s benefit. Not man.

      • ♥LadyInChrist♥InGodITrust♥

        In Jesus Name I agree with this Prayer. Amen!

  • Just tell the godless involved in this and other cases like it….”NO” and be done with it.

    • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

      That will just get you a losing lawsuit.

      • Not if all of us with common sense stood behind it.

        • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

          You’d have to change the constitution first.

          • No

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            Yes, you would. The government doesn’t have the power to promote religion, and is expressly prohibited from an establishment of religion.

            In any case, it’s been removed. You can try to waste taxpayer money on the next case that comes along.

          • Get a grip.

            The government is not promoting one religion over another.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            Of course it is — it had a Christian symbol on public property, and it wasn’t a public forum where anyone could put up their own symbols.

          • It was not put there by any government entity therefore not endorsed by the government.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            Not when it’s on public property — people can’t just put up anything on public property without government permission, otherwise people would build houses in Central Park.

          • Go hide under your bed that way you won’t accidently see anything that will offend you.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            “Offense” isn’t the issue, I prefer a government that follows the constitution.

          • And on that issue they always have.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            When they remove things like this cross, yes. Have you noticed it’s been removed?

          • pastoredsmith

            W2, the only thing that was “removed” was the First Amendment. You know, the part about “Freedom OF Religion.” The government does not “establish” a religion by “allowing” it. This government is out of control and a bunch of atheist bullies won’t succeed in toppling it. It’s time to reverse this trend…..now.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            You know, the part about “Freedom OF Religion.”

            The government doesn’t have freedom of religion, and if putting up a religious structure on public land is “freedom of religion”, EVERYONE gets to put up religious structures, not just selfish Christians.

          • pastoredsmith

            It’s selfish atheists who are holding their breath and squealing like a kid who had his favorite toy taken away from him by another child who are attempting to silence Christianity that are the problem here. Nobody is harmed by the First Amendment….ALL of it. This is public land and public expression of religion is not prohibited by the government, nor can it be..

          • Guzzman

            You wrote, “This is public land and public expression of religion is not prohibited by the government, nor can it be.” That is incorrect. The First Amendment prohibits government from endorsing, favoring, advancing, or promoting religion.

            “Whether the key word is ‘endorsement’, ‘favoritism’, or ‘promotion’, the essential principle remains the same. The Establishment Clause [of the First Amendment], at the very least, prohibits government from appearing to take a position on questions of religious belief.” Allegheny County v. ACLU.

          • pastoredsmith

            Guzzman, and the “freedom of religion” clause in the First Amendment prohibits the government from infringing on the practice of religion, even in public or on public land. When the government prohibits religious practice on public land, that government has taken a stand against religion and violates the Constitution.

          • Guzzman

            Yes, the Free Exercise Clause prohibits government from interfering in the religious beliefs and practices of private citizens. But that is not what this case was about. Placing a permanent, stand-alone Christian cross on government property gave the appearance that the city endorsed Christianity to the exclusion of all other beliefs and faiths. That is a violation of the Establishment Clause, unless the government declares an open forum to give all other citizens an opportunity to express other viewpoints.

            Government property is not automatically considered an open public forum. It has to be created by an act of government. But once created, an open forum must give all religious viewpoints an opportunity to express themselves.

            The state ultimately decided against that option because of the religious strife it often causes. James Madison predicted this very thing hundreds of years ago. The state preferred to remove the religious display rather than allow alternative viewpoints to be expressed. That is within the state’s legal discretion.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            It’s selfish atheists who are holding their breath and squealing like a kid who had his favorite toy taken away from him by another child who are attempting to silence Christianity that are the problem here.

            Nope, just demanding that the government not play favorites when it comes to religion.

            Nobody is harmed by the First Amendment….ALL of it.

            ALL of it would mean everyone gets to put up religious structures, so either everyone or no one. The town decided on the latter.

          • pastoredsmith

            Nobody prohibits anybody from putting up religious structures, except those who are forced to take them down by the government that has become anti-religion. The only people who object to religious expression in public are angry atheists who claim to be “offended.”

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            Nobody prohibits anybody from putting up religious structures

            They certainly do on public property. That’s the issue here.

            The only people who object to religious expression in public are angry atheists who claim to be “offended.”

            Wrong; plenty of other non-Christians don’t want selfish Christians to put up their (and only their) religious symbols on public property, and there are also lots of Christians who are also against it, such as Rev. Barry Lynn.

          • pastoredsmith

            Barry Lynn is “Rev” by name only. He wants Christianity limited to the inside walls of the church only. You call Christians selfish because we want the rights to express our religion any where any time, but you don’t think it evil for atheists to hold their collective, self-made breath until their little faces turn blue to get their way. No, atheists are the selfish ones here. There are no atheist hospitals; there are Christian hospitals. There are no atheist soup kitchens and places to feed the destitute, nor missions to reach the needy. In crisis such as natural disasters, it is Christians that respond. No atheists. Selfish? Atheists are just that. Christians give and love. This is what you seek to silence.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            Barry Lynn is “Rev” by name only.

            As much as you, “Pastor”.

            He wants Christianity limited to the inside walls of the church only.

            Stop lying about Reverend Barry Lynn — he’s fine with people declaring their religious views in public and on their own property, he just doesn’t want the government to play favorites.

            No, atheists are the selfish ones here. There are no atheist hospitals; there are Christian hospitals. There are no atheist soup kitchens and places to feed the destitute, nor missions to reach the needy. In crisis such as natural disasters, it is Christians that respond. No atheists.

            And now you’re just lying about atheists.
            Foundation Beyond Belief
            The American Humanist Association
            British Humanist Association
            ..and more state/local ones.

            Plus there are plenty of nonreligious organizations like Amnesty International, Oxfam International, UNICEF, Doctors Without Borders, The Nature Conservancy, The Union of Concerned Scientists, etc.

            If only you belonged to a religion that said lying was immoral…

            Christians give and love.

            Not you — you’re just another selfish Christian who wants the government to push your religion.

          • B1jetmech

            Barry Lynn is a Fake and a phony who hides behind a clergy title.

            The man doesn’t believe his own theology regarding Christ.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            Barry Lynn is a Fake and a phony who hides behind a clergy title.

            No, he’s a real person.

            The man doesn’t believe his own theology regarding Christ.

            Are you pretending to be a mindreader? Doesn’t the bible prescribe stoning soothsayers like you to death?

          • B1jetmech

            No, he’s a real person.

            Real at what? He speaks out against the very belief system claims to support. Most of the people in the world will spend an eternity separated from God which is the second death Lynn spends his time attacking believers through denying them a forum on public grounds and taking up liberals causes that go against God’s word.

            The Reverend Barry Lynn is the what 2 Peter 2 and 2 Timothy 3 warned up about.

            Are you pretending to be a mindreader? Doesn’t the bible prescribe stoning soothsayers like you to death?

            It’s easy, The Reverend Barry Lynn exposed himself when he took the position that Jesus is NOT the only way to eternal life. There are other ways to eternal life. OF course Jesus clearly stated the He is the way, the Truth and the light and no one comes to the father except through him.

            Why doesn’t The Reverend Barry Lynn preach what he believes?

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            He speaks out against the very belief system claims to support.

            No, he doesn’t. He thinks the government should stay out of religion.

          • B1jetmech

            And it does…but purposely preventing any Christian symbols on public lands is NOT a government endorsement of religion.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            Lynn (and I) disagree.

          • B1jetmech

            I bet you two were separated at Birth.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            Out of arguments, eh?

          • B1jetmech

            So how is having religious symbols on public land an endorsement of religion?

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            By only allowing one symbol, the government is promoting that religion. Notice this wasn’t a public forum where anyone could put up religious symbols.

          • B1jetmech

            That is a definition that was issued by a court, is not in the Constitution.

            Putting religious symbols on public land is NOT an endorsement of religion.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            The constitution isn’t a list of laws; “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof” still needs to be interpreted.

            Putting religious symbols on public land is NOT an endorsement of religion.

            The constitution doesn’t say “an endorsement of religion”. It’s your interpretation against the courts’.

          • Rhesus Peanut Buttercup

            I can think of a few Christians who would also be offended actually. It isn’t about wanting things removed as much as it is wanting them in the correct places.

          • pastoredsmith

            That’s preposterous. It’s about limiting the freedom of religion to the places atheists want it and none else. It’s about silencing religion outside of the church doors; or as Mr. Obama put it “freedom to worship.” NO, it’s about freedom OF RELIGION. Anywhere. Any time.

          • Rhesus Peanut Buttercup

            That’s fine, as long as you are open to Muslims or even Satanists doing the same thing.

          • pastoredsmith

            Ok, we finally agree. This America. Welcome to this free country, with the exception of atheists and others who want to destroy religious freedom. Let the muslims and satanists do whatever they do. That is what freedom is all about.

          • Rhesus Peanut Buttercup

            I think it’s probably a safe guess that if you’re OK with a billboard on the side of the road inviting people to join the church of Satan, you’re in the minority among Christians.

          • pastoredsmith

            You obviously don’t hang around too many Christians, do you? You missed your guess. God Himself taught free will. It is our ability to share the Gospel being impeded by angry atheists who pose as “religion police” that we oppose. Protest all you want, but when you try to coerce the government into silencing Christians, you cross the line.

          • Rhesus Peanut Buttercup

            Yes, I hang around many Christians. They don’t want to see satanist billboards so they know that they can’t have Christian billboards either, at least not on public property.

          • pastoredsmith

            Based on your remarks to me, apparently you don’t know many Christians. You certainly do know how to put false words in our mouths. I don’t want satanist billboards either, but I prefer freedom. They have the right to show their ignorance, just the same as atheists. Tell me this. How many Christians do you know that sue atheists to try to silence them? Every single atheist I know wants to silence Christians and will do anything at all do accomplish it. Atheists do not believe in freedom for anyone but themselves, and you call me “selfish.” smh….

          • Rhesus Peanut Buttercup

            I’m sorry sir, but I haven’t put any false words in your mouth. I’m speaking entirely from my own experience. And respectfully, I don’t know any atheists suing Christians to silence them, either. What I do see is people who would prefer to see public property remain neutral for everyone’s benefit. I’m sorry you disagree with me but please don’t tell me that I’m putting words in your mouth. In addition, I never called you “selfish”.

          • pastoredsmith

            See for reference the bullies at the Freedom from religion foundation for your lawsuits. Suing townships, schools and about everybody else in the country that ALLOWS the free practice of religion. You are correct, you didn’t call me selfish….confused that comment with a previous commenter. Apologies for the mistake. But, you judge Christians by your own manmade rules and expect me to fall into the false mantra you invented for us? Yes, you try to put words in my mouth. As to the government endorsing religion by allowing its free practice on public land, the government, under the encouragement of atheists HAS taken a stand AGAINST religion by prohibiting the free exercise thereof. You want to push the “establishment clause,” a thing that I likewise oppose. I don’t want the government establishing a religion, but the government likewise has no business prohibiting its free exercise either….yes, on public land. We ALL own it. Not atheists who think you are exempt because you “don’t hold to religion,” according to your beliefs. However, anti religion has become a religion, as atheists now have “churches” and “clergy” with “free thinking” meetings held in the same manner as REAL churches.

          • Susan Perelka

            You are demanding the government support one religion, atheism!

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            No, I’m not. Being neutral isn’t pushing atheism — a sign saying “gods are myths” would be an actual example. But a blank wall is neutral.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            No, I’m demanding that the government be neutral — supporting atheism would require that the government somehow propagate the thought that gods don’t exist, such as replacing the cross with a sign saying “gods are myths”. But that didn’t happen. The cross was removed, leaving a plain patch of ground like all the other patches of ground in the area. Are all those other blank areas promoting atheism?

          • Rhesus Peanut Buttercup

            I so agree…the constitution all the way, always.

          • Susan Perelka

            Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life, ALWAYS!

      • Chet

        Possibly, but one will not know unless one takes a stand, daring to be a Daniel and opts to watch God Almighty work things out for His glory and honor. Christians and believing Jews must stop quaking in their boots in the face of godless atheistic adversity only to drop and roll over. We have Christian leadership in Wash…

        • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

          Are you offering to finance it? It takes at least $1,000,000 to take a case all the way to the supreme court.

          • Chet

            Taxpayers are financing abortion, presently. Perhaps in shutting this barbarism down we’ll have litigation money enough. Stand Up, Stand Up For Jesus Ye Soldiers Of The Cross…

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            Taxpayers are financing abortion, presently.

            How so?

            Perhaps in shutting this barbarism down we’ll have litigation money enough.

            What money? No federal funds go to pay for abortions.

          • Chet

            Wrong, check out the largest recipient of such funds, that is, till the source of their income soon dries up and women’s health care clinics elsewhere come into view… Good for the unwanted unborn little ones, no…

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            Wrong, check out the largest recipient of such funds

            Planned Parenthood doesn’t use that money for abortions; the federal government prohibits it, and has for years.

            Taxpayers are NOT financing abortion.

          • Rhesus Peanut Buttercup

            Boy, I’d really like to know where that lie got started…a lot of people seem to believe it.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            Well, there’s the Hyde amendment.

          • Susan Perelka

            The deceiver is the devil and many have been blinded by his lies. Jesus, removes those blinders, so you can see the truth and be saved. God is merciful! His mercy is greater than His wrath, but make no mistake, that just wrath is coming. Don’t harden your heart against this truth.

          • Rhesus Peanut Buttercup

            Respectfully, I believe I already know the truth, thanks.

          • Chet

            Miraculously, there are workarounds available to skirt federal regs. Respectfully, you’re not exchanging here with some dunce or low info voter, dude… I know how things work and fully understand fundings and back doors…

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            Why isn’t the DOJ prosecuting anyone then?

          • Chet

            Good question. Why are they not now front and center in investigating the more and more evident instances of democrat collusion with Ruskies?

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            Red herring. If federal law is being routinely violated, as you claim, why isn’t anything being done?

          • Chet

            Red herring or tuna, nothing is being done on this entire supposed Russian collusion matter, save the surprising drips coming out now regarding the FBI, in concert with dems, putting a spy on board with Trump’s election campaign. As you know, not only would further proof of such be highly extraordinary but also illegal and damaging to your party . So, we’ll have to take a wait and see approach till it’s all done and over with.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            No, really, you’re just trying to change the subject since you can’t answer my question.

          • Chet

            You are right. I cannot answer any more than anyone else which is why we must bide time till it all pans out. If the president is indicted, which I firmly believe will not happen, he must be proven guilty even as he remains innocent till then. Innocent till proven guilty, that’s the way the Rule of Law works in the USA.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            You are right. I cannot answer any more than anyone else which is why we must bide time till it all pans out.

            There’s nothing to “pan out” — abortions aren’t funded with tax money.
            And you’re still trying to fob off that red herring.

          • Chet

            Why, pray tell, would large women’s groups that promote allowing life in the womb be working tirelessly to defund the nation’s largest abortion provider. You think them to be mere fools… I know better and will not be deterred by the ruse suggested…

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            Why, pray tell, would large women’s groups that promote allowing life in the womb be working tirelessly to defund the nation’s largest abortion provider.

            What groups are those, and what do they say about federal funding for abortions? What lawsuits have they brought to force the state to follow the law? Atheist groups do that all the time, as shown by this story — so where are the lawsuits?

          • Chet

            You appear sincere to learn, thus, for the sake of time, I quickly submit three : Susan B. Anthony List, Operation Rescue and Newsletter@Christian Post.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            Where do they say federal money is being spent?

          • Chet

            Please research their very strong opposition against abortion and the pp…

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            That does nothing to show that the federal government finances abortion.

          • ♥LadyInChrist♥InGodITrust♥

            Amen and Amen!

          • Susan Perelka

            Amen!

  • Guzzman

    The owners of the cross, the Grass Lake Ministerial Association, decided to remove it from public land after talking with state officials.

    Courts have consistently recognized the Latin cross as indisputably representative of Christianity. Here’s what one Federal court recently wrote: “Further, the reasonable observer would know that a Latin cross generally represents Christianity. These factors collectively weigh in favor of concluding that the Cross endorses Christianity — not only above all other faiths, but also to their exclusion.” (AHA v. Maryland-National Capital Park and Planning Commission, 2017).

    • nineleven

      When are your unbiased and secular courts going to forcebly remove teaching Islamic history and kowtowing to Islamic demands about teaching 5 pillars of islam in public school? they wont–officials are afraid of muslim terror but have no hesitation to silence the voices and desires of Christians.

      • Guzzman

        It would be blatantly unlawful for a public school to indoctrinate students or force them to convert to any religion. Do you have any specific examples?

        • ppp777

          Its just plain common knowledge .

          • Guzzman

            If it’s “just plain common knowledge” that public schools are indoctrinating students or forcing them to convert to Islam, then it should be a simple matter of citing some examples of this blatantly unconstitutional practice. Have at it.

          • ppp777

            Google it , look it up on you tube e t c ., its been going on since the early nineties .

          • Tim Matter

            ppp777 and nineleven- To me it kinda looks like you have nothing to reference us to that supports your point.

          • nineleven

            this is reality TM. this is what happens when a nation turns away from the laws of God and freedom that comes in Christ. Instead of freedom, America is going to get enslavement and the sword of Islam.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            Google it , look it up on you tube e t c

            I can’t find any. Produce some actual links, or at least the names + states of some of these schools.

      • Lily Of The Valley

        What’s wrong with teaching Islamic history in public schools? Shouldn’t that be taught aside the rest of the world’s history?

        • nineleven

          teaching historical facts is one thing. influencing students to write down the 5 pillars of Islam in arabic calligraphy is getting awfully close to doing what is required to become a muslim and towards belief. again, if thats the case, than Christians should be allowed to read their bible in school, pray out loud and get the entire class to do assignments that talk about what it means that Jesus died on the cross and how to become a disciple of Jesus.

          • Rhesus Peanut Buttercup

            I really would like to read that story, but I can not locate it online.

          • Lily Of The Valley

            “influencing students to write down the 5 pillars of Islam in arabic
            calligraphy is getting awfully close to doing what is required to become a muslim and towards belief”

            OK, I’m no expert on Islam, but how is that “towards belief”? Isn’t that a little like saying if I copied down John 3:16 or something, I’d be coming close to being a Christian? I’d have to actually believe it, wouldn’t I? Doesn’t the same go for ANY religion?

            “than Christians should be allowed to read their bible in school, pray out loud”

            First of all, that’s a little bit of a different thing from the example you gave of students learning about Islam in class. Not really an apt comparison, I think. But, students ARE allowed to read the Bible and pray. (as long as it’s not in the middle of a class when they’re supposed to be doing algebra or something, I guess!) Any school that tells them otherwise would be wrong, and if there are schools saying that, I’d be as much against that as anyone. It’s when there’s a teacher or staff member leading such things that they’ll run into problems with violating separation of church and state.

            “and get the entire class to do assignments that talk about what it means that Jesus died on the cross and how to become a disciple of Jesus.”

            I’d see no problem with that in a class on world religions.

  • nineleven

    When Jesus comes back secular humanism and everything false that denies God’s truth will be removed from the earth.
    I am looking forward to that day where His rule is across the globe and on every hill and valley.

    • Tim Matter

      neneleven- And when the 12th Imam reappears we will know that Islam is true and there is no God but Allah. (And the Shiite’s have the true path within Islam)
      Until then I am suspicious of religions that demand submission. or else.

  • It does not matter who “owns” the cross. The permit that allowed it to be on State property was unconstitutional. It was an infraction of the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment and the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment.

    Of course, the State could declare the hill to be an open forum and allow all other religions and non-religious philosophies to erect their symbols there and make them just as prominent. Then they could name the hill, Freedom Hill.” That would have allowed the cross to remain.

    But the fact that Christians likely would not allow that is exactly why the cross is not allowed. The only other option is to call a Constitutional Convention or a Convention of the States and change the Constitution–delete the Establishment Clause and the 14th Amendment–and Christians could establish a theocracy, excluding all other faiths and forcing conversion.

  • Toller

    Taking down everything from the past is becoming a common thing now

    • Susan Perelka

      That is because they are attempting to rewrite history.

      • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

        No, just removing vestiges of undeserved Christian hegemony.

        • B1jetmech

          Ahhh..trading one hegemony for another….

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            How so? Give some examples of this hegemony you see.

          • B1jetmech

            Yes sir!

            Secularist for a long time have been hollowing out this nation’s roots in Christianity. Once the christian paradigm is removed, it is then replaced with a fluid, godless philosophy that erodes away at the civil society to the point it get’s so bad, that we will need a centralized government to maintain control, because we won’t be able govern ourselves.

            It will closely resemble a communist type system.

            That is the secular hegemony we are heading to.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            That’s not an example, that just a rant.
            Can you cite any specific actions?

          • B1jetmech

            That’s whats happening. Whether you can agree or not, that’s where we’re heading.

            just look at our schools…been in control by secularist for decades…just about everything happens including shootings. Didn’t use to happen in our schools you know.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            Your fevered imagination isn’t an actual example.

          • B1jetmech

            I got the feva’…imagination? Not so much when judging on outcomes.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            You still can’t come up with any actual examples…

          • B1jetmech

            Did the secularization of our school example just fly way over your head???

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            It wasn’t an “example”, it was non-specific ranting.

            Do you object to, say, teaching science?
            Being neutral on religion?
            What?

            And by the way, the worst public school massacre was in Bath, Michigan in 1927.

          • B1jetmech

            It wasn’t an “example”, it was non-specific ranting.

            Then I guess people rant all the time in stating a position or cause.

            Do you object to, say, teaching science?

            If you’re suggesting evolution then yes along with creation. Because evolution is not fact, only a theory and cannot be observable or testable in a lab setting.

            Being neutral on religion?

            IF one understands American history, it was founded on Judaeo-Christian principles…not secularism. Secular societies like the Soviet Union, Cambodia, Cuba,ect were/are examples of secularism’s oppression onto their respective populations.

            And by the way, the worst public school massacre was in Bath, Michigan in 1927.

            Yeah? That happened in 1927 by distraught man. What we’re experiencing is a higher and higher frequency of school shootings taking place every year in our public schools. I don’t think it’s going to let up either

            I remember back in high school in the 80’s that the police were never called. In one of our local high schools, the police have been there over thirty times just in the first 4 months of school.

            What is secularism answer to these issues? None, secularist don’t have answers or solutions. They have been in charge of the public institutions for the last few decades…do you not disagree with this?

            Let me clear about my position of religion in public schools. Our schools are not churches but students and faculty should free to express themselves. When a student does a report about his or her faith, they shouldn’t be told not to. If a teacher wishes to share their faith with a troubled student then they should be allowed to council them.

            I’m totally against theocracies AND no where in the Bible does it teach as such. Christianity is all about the individual not governing bodies like Sharia law is. If some christian want’s to institute laws like mandatory worship service of singing, I would be against it Because God doesn’t force up to do so, let alone believe in Him.

          • W2.718281828stl2.718281828y

            Then I guess people rant all the time in stating a position or cause.

            What are you babbling about? I asked for specific examples — you didn’t give any.

            If you’re suggesting evolution then yes along with creation.

            Creation isn’t science, it’s religion. Which creation myths, anyway? All of them?

            Because evolution is not fact, only a theory

            “Theory” is as good as it gets in science. Guess you didn’t pay attention in class. The theory of gravity is only a theory. The germ theory of disease is only a theory — should we give equal time to the demon theory of disease?

            and cannot be observable or testable in a lab setting.

            See the e. coli long-term evolution experiment for just one example.

            IF one understands American history, it was founded on Judaeo-Christian principles…not secularism.

            Uh, no. The US was founded on religious freedom and democratic elections — Christianity commands you to worship their god, and has the divine right of kings; both were rejected.

            Secular societies like the Soviet Union, Cambodia, Cuba,ect were/are examples of secularism’s oppression onto their respective populations.

            You don’t even know what “secular” means.

            What is secularism answer to these issues? None, secularist don’t have answers or solutions. They have been in charge of the public institutions for the last few decades…do you not disagree with this?

            I disagree — you have no idea what “secular” means, and you’re just throwing out a post hoc fallacy.

            Our schools are not churches but students and faculty should free to express themselves.

            They are. Why are you so totally ignorant of current law?

            If a teacher wishes to share their faith with a troubled student then they should be allowed to council them.

            Nope, now you’ve got a government employee conducting religion.

  • Drake

    OK – I’m COMPLAINING that the cross was removed. Bring it BACK!

    • Guzzman

      You wrote, “It is actually illegal to remove something that’s been in place for more than 50 years – it is now a landmark.” Latin crosses on public property have been ruled unconstitutional that were in place for well more than 50 years ( e.g., AHA v. Maryland-National Capital Park and Planning Commission, 2017). Citation please.

      • Drake

        It was signed into law by President Clinton as part of the package that included the World Heritage Sites.

        • Guzzman

          The Latin cross sat atop Sackrider Hill in Michigan. Sackrider Hill does not even come close to meeting the criteria for being designated a World Heritage Site. It is silly to even suggest such a notion.

  • ppp777

    Why wasn’t the death of Chuck Missler mentioned on this site in the last few weeks ? , a site better than Billy Graham and R C scrholl is now gone from this world .

  • Lily Of The Valley

    I just have to wonder how the people that are complaining about the cross being removed would react if it were a symbol of Islam, or maybe even better yet, one of those statues those “Satanic Temple” people put up every now and then.

  • Susan Perelka

    You may remove that cross made by human hands, but you will not stop the gospel message from going forth BECAUSE God said “The gates of hell shall not prevail against His church”. Christ hanging on that cross was the work of God’s hands!

    Children of God, by faith, stand fast!

    Psalm 91

    He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High,
    Will abide in the shadow of the ALMIGHTY.
    I will say to the LORD, “My refuge and my fortress,
    My God in Whom I trust!”
    For it is He who delivers you from the snare of the trapper
    And from the deadly pestilence.
    He will cover you with His pinions,
    And under His wings you may seek refuge;
    His faithfulness is a shield and bulwark.

    You will not be afraid of the terror by night,
    Or of the arrow that flies by day;
    Of the pestilence that stalks in the darkness,
    Or of the destruction that lays waste at noon.
    A thousand may fall at your side,
    And ten thousand at your right hand,
    BUT it shall not approach you.
    You will only look on with your eyes
    And see the recompense of the wicked.
    For you have made the LORD, my refuge,
    Even the Most High, your dwelling place.
    No evil shall befall you,
    Nor will any plague come near your tent.

    For he will give His angels charge concerning you,
    To guard you in all your ways.
    They will bear you up in their hands,
    That you do not strike your foot against a stone.
    You will tread upon the lion and the cobra,
    The young lion and the serpent you will trample down.

    BECAUSE…. he has LOVED Me, therefore I will deliver him;
    I will set him securely on high because he has KNOWN My Name,
    He will call upon Me, and I will answer him;
    I will be with him in trouble;
    I will rescue him and honor him.
    With a long life I will satisfy him
    And let him see My salvation (Jesus)

    For those who have ears to hear, let them hear what the Spirit has to say……….