American Muslim Men, Children Beat Themselves Bloody for Muhammad’s Grandson

GeorgiaATLANTA — Video footage has surfaced online of Muslim men in Lilburn, Georgia—along with children and teens—beating themselves bloody as part of an Islamic ritual that seeks to commemorate the death of the grandson of Mohammad.

As previously reported, last week, Muslims around the world observed the Day of Ashura, which marks the death of Husyn ibn Ali approximately 1,300 years ago. He was the son of Fatimah, Mohammad’s daughter, and was beheaded during the Battle of Karbala in 680 A.D.

To remember his death, many Shi’a Muslims observe the Day of Ashura each year, generally in October or November. In countries such as Iran, Iraq, Turkey and Pakistan, the observance is considered a national holiday, which to some also is a time when Muslims seek to shed blood as a means to obtain forgiveness for sins.

Some expressed horror when photos and video surfaced last week of Muslim men slicing the forehead of their infant children with knives as part of the annual ritual. But the blood-letting practice has apparently been around for years.

“We’ve been doing this since we were kids. I started when I was three,” Mahmoud Jaber, 43, told the Associated Press in 2007. “It doesn’t hurt because the cry of pain goes away with the faith.”

Muslims in Kabul, Afghanistan and Mumbai, India were also captured on video last week as they gathered for a public Muharram ceremony, during which scores of observers whipped their backs with chains until they bled. The controversial practice has been discouraged in some Eastern countries, where Muslims are advised to rather donate blood rather than engage in self-flagellation activities.

But while the practice is considered to be largely observed by Middle-Eastern nations, video has now surfaced of Muslims in Atlanta, Georgia also beating themselves bloody with flails, knives, and Zanzeers, which consist of five knives attached by a chain to a stick. According to reports, the event was held outside of a mosque in Lilburn, Georgia, and children were encouraged to participate.

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At least two videos appear on YouTube, capturing the event as shirtless men chant Islamic sayings, slap their chests and vigorously whip their backs until they bleed. One video shows several young boys participating in the gathering, whipping their back just like their elders. Other children can be seen looking on as spectators, while the men and women that encircle those flogging themselves hold their hands to their heart. The ritual continues for at least fifteen minutes—that is, until the video clip ends.

Writer Onan Coca, who learned of the observance within America’s own borders, expressed his concern about the matter in a recent article.

“[T]his is a Department of Justice and American Civil Liberties Union sanctioned mosque,” he wrote. “The imam encouraged them to bring the whole family. The children were encouraged to participate and even handed the standard flail.”

“What about the children who are forced to view and encouraged to participate in this violence?” Coca continued. “If this were happening in the home of an Atlanta resident, the department of child services would take the child from that home as quick as they could. If a family in Atlanta were encouraging their child to beat themselves or cut themselves… the state would not allow it!”

“Yet, because Islam has strangely become some kind of protected cult in our society, we allow these children to be abused right in front of us— in view of the public and even our legal authorities,” he said. “It’s abhorrent.”

Warning: Graphic

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  • bowie1

    This is called works righteousness, in an attempt to gain entry into heaven. However, Jesus has already paid the price and He is the only door through which we may enter.

  • Frank

    This is child abuse of the highest order. They need to be arrested and thrown into prison just like we do any other leader that abuses children.

    • Ali


      • Frank

        Child abuse is not tolerated here in America. There are even states that hand out natural life sentences for certain types of it. This is definately an instance of heinous child abuse. The children need to be protected from these horrendous child abusers. The evidence is there. Have then arrested and thrown in prison for a very long time.

    • omshhaol

      Another “Gotcha:… Turns out, this is all yet another bullshit story concocted by the ChristianNews.Net

  • wandakate

    Shocked at this actually being allowed to happen in the United States of America. Where were the police? No authorities there stopping this salvage ritual, or whatever it was, memorial to the grandkid. Even little boys standing doing that, copying what the adults were doing. Insane totally and it should not be allowed to take place. What is this country coming to?

  • DW

    Ah, just another example of the peaceful ‘religion’ that is islam. Or, I should say, the godless, demonically driven, bloodthirsty, wicked, irrational, nonsensical, brutal, worthless, backwards, ignorant religion of the false prophet mooohammad and his false moon god allah.

    • Cyrus

      Not nice, didn’t Jesus call his Father “Allah”, guess Jesus prays to a “moon god” as well

      • DW

        No, He most certainly did NOT call the Father ‘allah!’ EVER. Allah is the name of a Sumerian moon god that muhammad chose to represent the monotheistic religion he fabricated under the influence of demonic entities. Then, he went around demanding the surrounding peoples stop worshipping their many gods and only worship the one he chose under the threat of death, just like today. This allah is some pathetic, weak ‘god’ if he needs weak mortal men to FORCE others to worship him. What…he can’t take up for himself? Of course he can’t because he doesn’t exist.

        • Cyrus

          In many texts, Jesus called God “Allah”, and Jesus is a Middle Eastern God that Christians believe in, so it would only make sense that Allah is Jesus’s Father when Allah is the standard vocab for God, and if we use your logic then Jesus’ s Father is “weak”

          • DW

            *sigh* OK. This conversation is over. I cannot reason with such breathtaking ignorance. I’m very sad for you.

          • Cyrus

            *shaking my head* yes conversation was just beginning but I feel happy for you that your “ignorance” has taken the best of you, and by the way I would consider Islam and Muslims “Christians” to be exact Unitarian Christians

          • Rose

            Then you are mistaken, in your last statement. They’re different things. In this instance, it’s not like apples and oranges. It’s more like cats and snakes. If you’re just saying that out of spite, then there’s no reason for such immaturity. I agree with Reason2012 and I ask for you to cite where in the bible, whichever one that you read, and show us where Jesus calls God ‘Allah’; just so I know you’re not speaking purely on ignorance and hotheaded opinion.

          • Reason2012

            Please cite where in the Bible Jesus calls God “allah”. It’s not in there.

          • omshhaol

            Which version of the bible are you referring to?

            Is there anything that can be referred to as the “original” bible? Or have they all been doctored and manipulated to express different interprerations depending on who happened to support what ideal or idea?

          • Reason2012

            Hello. We have many thousands of copies of the Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic texts – far more than any other books even older than that which people have no problem believing are true. Yet when it’s the Bible suddenly they pretend far better proof the texts are accurate is suddenly “not enough”.

            The issue is not having the Scriptures – the issue is people are always seeking a reasons to reject God.

            If God exists, then we’d have His accurate Word and it would not be possible for mankind to destroy them by distortion as God can trivially make sure His Word survives.

            If God was not true, it would not matter if what is now clearly a lie is 100% accurate to what was originally written as it’s a lie even if 100% accurate to what was originally written.

            Luke 18:17 “Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein. “

            If we don’t want to believe, then we don’t. But the amount of time people spend attacking that which they claim to not believe shows they have far greater faith in God than they think. Please think on these things.

          • omshhaol

            You completely missed my point. By asking you which Bible are you referring to, I am inferring to the fact that having so many different versions of the Bible might give the impression that using one version versus the other might not produce as accurate a result which would them make your point to >>>check the Biblle, it doesn’t say this, that or the other” therefore it is/isn’t true<< a moot point!

          • Reason2012

            It seems you are the one that completely missed the point. Of course there are false versions – even TODAY people try to make new false versions – but we have thousands of copies of old Greek/Hebrew manuscripts that shows we have the ability to notice which ones are the false versions and hence that we DO have an accurate version.

            You also ignore that we have a fraction of copies of books even older that we don’t even think twice about being reliable, which of course exposes the hypocrisy of such claims.

      • bowie1

        On the cross he said in Hebrew or Aramaic, Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani meaning My God, My God why have you forsaken me? Matthew 27:46. (Allah, by the way is Arabic for God and is also used in Arabic Bible translations and literally means “The God”)

        • omshhaol

          I agree with bowie1… And even if anyone was to “show” you an arabic version of the bible; you couldn’t read it to determine whether “Allah” in Arabic appears in it or not. But rest assured that for each and every utterance of the word God, The Lord… etc, the Arabic word “Allah” is used instead!

    • Marie Adigwe

      Christianity also has a history of flagellation.

      • Reason2012

        Please back up your claim. Secondly nowhere in the Bible does it say to do any such thing.

        • bowie1

          Some Roman Catholics will crucify themselves to copy the suffering of Jesus Christ as if it will better ensure their salvation, although I believe it may take place mostly in countries such as the Philippines.

          • Reason2012

            But in other words nowhere in the Bible does it say do any such thing. Some teach that God wants us to be rich – doesn’t make that the truth of God/Christianity either.

        • Marie Adigwe

          Flagellation was done in support of Jesus. It represented the Flagellation of Christ. Research it. We also learned about it in my religious studies class when we were learning about Christianity. It is usually done to humble themselves and bear the sufferings that Christ went through before he was crucified. Other Christian denominations have practices that symbolize their faith that are not mentioned in the Bible. You would do well to learn about denominations other than your own because Christianity is the most divided religion I have ever seen.

          • Reason2012

            Sorry I do not see it.

            And many things were done falsely in the name of Christ.

            Matthew 7:21-23 “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

            If it’s not in the Bible, it doesn’t make one a Christian to do such things.

            For example, people teach that Jesus died so that we could be rich – doesn’t make something that’s in the Bible either. Of course “religious studies” are going to teach what people falsely do in the name of Christianity and make people think that’s Christianity – it helps keep people determined to brush off God, as if they’ll be able to say “Well I was told xyz, that’s why I did not repent and trust in Christ” and it will not matter.

            Acts 17:11 “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. “

            If other demoninations teach things that are contrary to God’s Word they are more false religions and are not Christian.

            So again, if it’s not in the Bible, it’s a lie that “Christians do this”. Those who are not really Christian except in name only are doing such things.

            Thanks for posting.

          • Marie Adigwe

            But the Bible doesn’t say to use the cross as a symbol, yet all Christians do it anyways.

          • Reason2012

            Hello. No Christians I know as Christians use a cross. Secondly, calling oneself a Christian doesn’t make one a Christian. Jesus says MANY will call him Lord and will be cast into_hell. I’d say using a physical cross (carved image) is not Biblical.

            Matthew 7:21-23 “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

            We are each responsible for getting right with God – it won’t work to reject God b/c of the false things “bad”, “immature” or “fake”Christians did in His name.

        • omshhaol

          So which part of the Quran is it that you read that Islam condones “doing any such thing”?

          • Reason2012

            Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book [Christians and Jews] had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors. (3:110)

            Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (9:29)

            Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe. (8:55)

            O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves? (4:144)

            O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. (5:51)

            They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary (5:17)

            For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies (4:101)

            O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty. (9:123)

            The Jews call Ezra a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! (9:30)

            Listen not to the unbelievers, but strive (Jihad) against them with the utmost strenuousness. (25:52)

            Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies and others besides, whom ye may not know (8:60)

            Strive hard (Jihad) against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed. (66:9, See also 9:73)

            …He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him there is no guide. For them is a penalty in the life of this world, but harder, truly, is the penalty of the Hereafter… (13:33-34)

            Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace… (9:14)

            And fight them until there is no more ftna (unbelief, worshipping others beside Allah), and religion is all for Allah… (8:39)

            We shall punish them gradually from directions they perceive not. (68:44)

            Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.” This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment. (8:12-13)

            O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence (8:65)

            Not equal are those of the believers who sit at home… and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and lives” (4:95)

          • omshhaol

            Sorry if my question was too vague for you to understand. I will repeat and clarify:

            Which part of the Quran is it, wherein you read that Islam condones “doing any such thing”? And by “any such things” I mean “beating themselves bloody as part of an alleged Islamic ritual”?

            I didn’t ask you to go searching for misinterpretations of verses from the Quran. Nor did I request that you try and convolute the meaning of words from the Quran, in a way that implicates Islam as being a religion that promotes hatred and violence towards Christians and Jews. Nothing that you posted comes even remotely close to showing the slightest bit of relevance to any part of my question. Worse yet, nothing that you posted is even remotely close to being a proper interpretation of the verses from the Quran that you are pretending to understand!

            And this actually further supports both underlying points that I had intended to demonstrate in both my previous posts to you. In this case, you failed to add any support to what you posted previously, and you added zero value to the discussion I had initiated. Instead, you went through all that trouble of copying and pasting only to prove that you are clueless. Because you seem to be under the impression that you can decide which translation sounds better to you, and use that to support your point, all while you really have no clue what the original verse was intended to mean. My point is, when you offer a translation of the Quran, in a completely different language, you afford yourself the opportunity to manipulate the word of God to your liking! To possibly make it into something it is not, twist it into something that further supports your views and furthers your objectives.

            In other words, and since I doubt those are your own translations, you obviously Googled some key terms that you
            wanted to “recite”, you read through a few results until you were able to find someone else’s work, work that consisted of statements that met your objective. That being to portray Muslims as being violent, and to further support your impression of Islamic teachings as condoning such violent and barbaric behavior. Neither of which is a valid premise. But you can believe whatever sounds scary and creepy enough to satisfy your motives!

            Sadly for you, you obviously failed because for one, you cannot distort the word of God because it has been preserved in the same exact form it was delivered to Mohammed, Sourah by sourah, ayeh by ayeh, word for word, even down to individual letter accent and punctuation mark! If you were to ever attempt to seek the true meaningful interpretation, then rest assured you will find it. It is as easily accessible as the twisted and meaningless gibberish that you posted.

            Conversley, if we were to look at the Bible for example, the reason there are so many different versions is not because the word of God meant different things. It is jot because God had intended to offer a variety of different “flavors” to suit many different appetites. It is simply because whoever decided to take on the task of interpreting, and with each and every iteration, words became diluted, meanings began to drift away from their intended goal, and each interpreter offered a meaning as he understood it, or one based upon some self serving prophecy that would benefit him or somehow serve his purpose. This allows for a lot of distortion, a lot of misinterpretations, and misrepresentations. And so when you sit here preaching to me what you perceive to be the word of God, and while it may be an accurate representation, there is absolutely no way to be certain whether it is or isn’t, simply because the original verses no longer exist. They can neither be identified nor scrutinized.

            But that’s OK… I am not here to play tit for that nor is it my intent to pretend that “neener, neener, my religion is better than yours”. Instead, I am here to ask you to refrain from posting the misleading information without you making sure it is an accurate representation of the truth, otherwise, all you are doing then is adding more fuel to the fire. Because the misinformation that you posted, will now find its way into another discussion when someone else chooses to copy and paste it there. And the cycle continue… This is worse than
            the blind leading he blind… Because you are not “leading” anyone anywhere. Instead, you are misleading and fear mongering rather than trying to understand and empathize.

            The majority of the interpretations that you offered are worded in a way to portray Islam as evil, and to suggest that Muslims are hateful of Christian and Jews. A pathetic attempt to incite anti Islamic sentiment all based on your deep level of ignorance of Islam and what it represents. A pitiful attempt to act holier than thou, and yet it backfires on you and you end up demonstrating your own hatred for or fear of Muslims and Islam. Even if you did copy and paste someone else’s work, and although it would then be someone else’s hatred and fear, you are just as guilty for planting that bad seed in yet another location where it can further poison someone else’s mind, and where it can further justify some more hatred in someone else’s heart, and not because its true, but simply because it fit within the realm of what you were hoping to achieve, that is to pretend you can prove me wrong about what is in the Quran and what isn’t!

            Keep in mind that during this holier than thou performance of yours, all you did was to show that you are far from being a true Christian and far from doing what the teachings of Jesus Christ would dictate you should do!

            Matthew 7:5 – Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

            Worse yet, and while I don’t know where you copied and pasted most of that from, but by doing so, you are further supporting the acts of those who wish to distort the image of Islam out of fear from what they mistakenly believe are true Muslims… I am referring to groups such as Al-Qaeda, ISIS…. etc. Anyone reading your post , and if they are as ignorant as you are, will more than likely be even more wrongly convinced that this is the way Muslims are, that these are the teachings of Islam. So you see, you have accomplished the same objective that the ISIS leaders had set out to achieve, when they video taped themselves beheading the two journalists they killed a few
            weeks back… Bravo… And congratulations. Your exemplary effort ought to be recognized and rewarded.

            Back to your translations for one minute… The first verse that you quoted ends with:

            “among them are some who have faith,
            but most of them are perverted transgressors”….

            Very harsh choice of words for someone who is clueless about that which he is translating!!! I mean, you can choose to use the words: “perverted transgressors” if you’d like. May be you know something I don’t know. But I can tell you that would be a huge stretch to try and match your words with the true intended meaning.

            Before I give you a more accurate translation, let me go back a couple of verses from 3:110 first and then I’ll continue… Here is 3:108: “These are the verses of Allah . We recite them to you, [O Muhammad], in truth; and Allah wants no injustice to the worlds. (3:108)”

            “…Allah wants no injustice to the worlds”… Of course this is one which you would not post, simply because it cotrradicts the point you are trying to make.

            Moving along, here is a different interpretation of that last verse you cited:

            “Among them are believers, but most of them are defiantly disobedient. (3:110)”

            Big difference, isn’t it… And to further demonstrate my previous point about different interpretations leaving completely different
            impressions, here is yet another failed attempt to interpret that
            same verse:

            “Some of them are believers; but most of them are evil-livers. (3:110)”

            NOT. EVEN. CLOSE.

            Point is, unless you can read, write and speak Arabic fluently, you have no business truing to pick and choose translations and using those to try and pretend you have a clue about the topic at hand!

            As for the other citations you offered, you can assume that they all refer to Christians and Jews but you would be wrong. You would have to know the history of that period in time to understand that in addition to Christians and Jews, there were groups of “non-believers” who worshiped non living icons like statutes and rocks. And many of the references that you posted are intended for them. (Google “Quraysh or Quraish”)

            There is one particular mention of “Christian, Jews” and taking them on as friends… And again, the interpretation you offer isn’t reasonable because it is taken out of context of the events that had occurred prior to that Surah getting delivered to Mohammad (PBUH). I am speaking of this:

            “O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. (5:51)”

            And if you really would like to learn who you should refrain from citing that as “proof” that God forbids Muslims from befriending Christians and Jews, then you should read this:

            I could offer you a correction for each and every verse you posted; then again, like I said, I don’t see my role in life as being a teacher for the ignorant. So if you are looking to learn and understand, I can only assume that you are capable of doing your own research and finding information that fits two opposing points of view. And since I can neither force my religion nor my opinion on you, I will assume that you will either (hopefully) choose what you read with an open mind (not
            an intention to hate and demean), and that you will out in some effort into understanding what you come across… Alternatively, you can continue to take the short route, keep copying and pasting those results that you find fitting of your ideology and continue to prove little except the level of your hateful ignorance! Your choice!!!

          • Reason2012

            “I didn’t ask you to go searching for misinterpretations of verses from the Quran”

            And there your entire post falls part. There’s nothing to interpret. “For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies (4:101)” means those who do not believe in allah are open enemies.

            “O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you,” means fight those who disbelieve – that you are to be harsh.

            “but strive (Jihad) against them with the utmost strenuousness” means to strive against them.

            That you want to ignore all the verses and claim they are “misinterpreted” does not make them go away.

            Thanks for posting.

          • omshhaol

            It seems that you are not the only one who is guilty of wanting to distort and mislead. I am referring to this same website we are on, where it appears that you may be a regular. As for me, this is my first time here and the reason I ended up here reading all this crap, was simply because I had clicked on this link regarding a story about Starbucks CEO making a statement that apparently offended some Christians. This is a demonstration of the hatred that this publication “The Christian” chooses to spread and condone.

            This is a story from March of last year, and yet it is starting to make the rounds again. In its article, the “Christian”
            decided to twist the meaning of what Howard Schults had stated so badly, that people are actually enraged enough to decide to boycot Startbucks stores. The article is titled:

            Starbucks CEO to Shareholders: If You Support Biblical Marriage, Sell Your Shares… (link:

            Incidentally,, as it often does, had conducted a
            comparison between what was said and what was allleged to have been said and here is what they came up with:

            TRUE: Howard Schultz affirmed the company’s support for same-sex marriage at a shareholder meeting.

            FALSE: Howard Schultz said supporters of traditional marriage were not allowed to be Starbucks stockholders or desired as Starbucks customers.

            This is what was being posted through social media and spread around through e-mail chain letters:

            —– Breaking News: Starbucks moves even farther left and tells
            traditional marriage supporters we don’t want your business.

            —– Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz just said at their annual meeting that If you support traditional marriage, we don’t want your business. He told a shareholder to sell his shares if he supported traditional marriage and didn’t like Starbucks stance against it. So let’s get this straight. If you support the 5000 year old tradition that marriage is between one man and one woman, you can’t buy shares in his far left radical company that sells designer $7.00 Grande Decaf Lattes? Done! I’ll take a Chick Fil-A and their 99 cent coffee instead.

            —– Click LIKE if it is time to BOYCOTT far left radical Starbucks and their attack on traditional marriage
            And here are the full details of what actually transpired:

            At Starbucks Corp.’s annual shareholder meeting in Seattle on March 20, a shareholder questioned Starbucks’ public support of gay marriage. A resulting boycott of the coffee company was partly responsible for disappointing first-quarter numbers, the shareholder said. Schultz interrupted the shareholder, twice asking, “What is your question?” Schultz cited Starbucks’ 38 percent annual return on shareholder value and suggested that the shareholder could always sell his shares.

            Here is the video of Howard Schultz answering the question:

            Can someone explain to me why is it that a “news” outlet, one that calls itself “Christian (somethign or another)….” would choose to lie and manipulate information so badly and so blatantly???

            Have you no shame? No dignity? No self respect? Are you really this pathetically desperate?

          • Reason2012

            “..where it appears that you may be a regular. As for me, this is my first time here..”

            If it’s your first time here how is it you can know anyone is a “regular”?

            “This is a demonstration of the hatred that this publication “The Christian” chooses to spread and condone.”

            It’s not hatred to point out a coffee business does not need to get into the_sex and morality business and promote private sexual desires of 2% of the population.

            If starbucks is supporting anti-religious ideas with the money people give them, attacking the definition of marriage, then people have aright to know and to stop giving them their money.

            So you’re claiming Starbucks does not support LBGT community and/or homosexual marriage?

            Ad hominem attacks do not prove your point.

      • Michael Larkin

        Your mixing true Christianity with the false teaching of Romanism.

        • Marie Adigwe

          So which denomination is true? Because Catholicism is just another denomination of Christianity.

          • Michael Larkin

            Hi Marie, The question is this, are Christianity and Roman Church the same? For the first 280 years of Christian history Christianity was banned by the Roman Empire, and Christians were under great persecution for their faith. this changed after the supposed conversion of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Constantine provided religious tolerance with the edit of Milan in AD 313, effectively lifting the ban on Christianity. Then in AD 325, Constantine called the council of Nicea in an attempt to unite Christianity and the Roman Empire, Constantine envisaged Christianity as a religion which could unite the Roman Empire, which at that time was beginning to fragment and divide. while this may have seemed like a positive development for the Christians church the results were anything but positive. Constantine refused to fully embrace the Christian faith, and continued many of his pagan practices and beliefs, so the church which Constantine produced was a mixture of true Christianity and Roman paganism. So Constantine allowed and promoted the “Christianization” of pagan beliefs. Romanism and true Christianity are most assuredly not the same. Hope this helps.

          • Marie Adigwe

            I know the history, but they are the same. Different denominations have different interpretations of the Bible, and Roman Catholicism has changed since then. Constantine was most likely a pagan, but he only made Christianity legal. He wasn’t the one who made it the official religion of Rome. Theodosius made it the official religion, and after that, anybody who was a heretic was persecuted, including pagans.

          • Michael Larkin

            Marie, let me ask you a question, Have you ever read the bible? if you have then perhaps you would be so kind as to show me where Rome gets it’s many doctrines from, The worship of Mary, praying to dead saints, purgatory, the doctrine of transubstansiation, an unmarried priesthood, the confessional and so many more if we look for these doctrines in the bible which is the very basis of Christianity we shall not find them. these are the teachings of men, and we know what Christ said to the Pharisees who tried to add to God’s word. Marie you shall find that the church of Rome is anything but Christian in face it is anti Christian. Take time to look at the reasons behind the reformation and the men who stood on the word of God.

          • Michael Larkin

            You speak of different interpretations you might like to check what Peter had to say about that, Second Peter 1:19-21,

          • Marie Adigwe

            I have read the Bible. That’s why I’m not out killing gays and burning witches like it tells you to do, and Catholics don’t worship Mary. They honor her because she is Jesus’s mother. Like the Bible commands you to honor your mother, they also honor his mother because she is seen as pure because she was worthy enough to give birth to Jesus. I don’t have an answer for praying to saints because I’ve never asked a Catholic about that. The idea of Purgatory comes from 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. Purgatory is believed to be the place that a sinner will go to be purified with the fire. Purgatory comes from the Latin word purgatorial, which is the same concept as sheol (Hebrew). I know that the unmarried priesthood exists because it doesn’t allow the priests to engage in certain worldly affairs, such as marriage and a family, so that they can focus on asceticism, which will bring them closer to God.

          • Michael Larkin

            Marie, The passage in first Corinthians is speaking of our works standing the test not purgatory. I suggest you go back to that one. As to your understanding of the worship of Mary, this is official Catholic doctrine and you would need to check the Roman Catholic Cathicism. Regarding Marriage of priests once again you would need to check the word of God as compared to the word of men, Peter had a wife as did many other of the apostles First Corinthians 9:5, With regard to the homosexuals I am instructed in my bible to love my fellowmen as myself, and to kill anyone is to break the commandments of God, whilst I am on that one, perhaps you might like to check out the making of images which is strictly forbidden by the commandments of God,Thou Shalt not make for thy self an image, never mind bowing down before them and praying to them, it says to not even make, you might like to explain how it is that the church of Rome breaks this commandment of God.

          • Michael Larkin

            Also perhaps you might like to explain how the church of Rome has Mary as the co-mediator when the bible very clearly says, “There is one mediator between man and God, The Man Christ Jesus” not two mediators or three no ONE Mary’s other children mentioned many, many times in scripture.

          • Michael Larkin

            Also may I commend to you for your consideration two resources, A video titled, ” Catholism: Crisis of Faith” this is available on Take heed ministries. and a book “The Gospel according to Rome” this is a response to the 1994 Catholic Catechism, I think the Author’s name may be Jim McCarty, not 100% positive. Give them a look and we can chat some more. Michael.

          • Marie Adigwe

            But that’s the contradiction. The Bible also says that the punishment of homosexuality is death, and who cares if they had wives? The Bible also says not to engage in worldly affairs. Some people would rather focus on God than have a family and a wife, and the apostles were also just people. Where in the Bible does it say you have to have to get married? I have Roman Catholic friends. They don’t worship Mary. They honor her, and your interpretation of the verse I pointed out doesn’t matter. They interpret it as a specific place where you are cleansed. They follow the Hebrew notion of Sheol, which is mentioned in the Hebrew Bible, and nearly all Christians make some type of image. You guys also make images of Jesus and Mary and the apostles and depict, I would say rather incorrectly because they were Middle Eastern and not white, in movies and shows.

          • Michael Larkin

            Marie, lets take each of your comments one by one, Having friends who only honour Mary is of no significance, What I am saying is that Roman Catholic Dogma teaches you have to worship Mary check the Roman Catholic Catechism, Secondly you say the passage in First Corinthians 3 speaks of purgatory, well if you take the time to look at the passage you will clearly see that it is not speaking of spending time in a ficticous place, but it is speaking of judging ones works and receiving or losing rewards not anything else. So If you take the time to look at any of the worlds commenters on the passage you will find that they agree with this interpretation. In regard to True Christians making images I am not sure where you get that from, Roman Catholics do so, however there is not one true Christian whom I know that does so, and I know many all over the world. so you are wrong in your comment. Where does the bible tell people to get married, well you have the very first marriage mentioned in Genesis when God Almighty said that it was not good for man to be alone, So God Almighty made a Woman for Adam and called her Eve. All through the entire bible both new and old testament you will find that marriage is not only mentioned but is indeed an honourable institution. and it is the image which Christ Himself uses to describe His relationship to the church. The Great apostle Paul promotes the idea of marriage in his letter to the believers at Corinth in chapter 7 of his first letter, check it out. If we are to continue this topic then we must look to the source of our information and not our own opinions, I have friends who do not even believe in the bible so we can not base our conversation on what they think no more than on what your friends think. Look at official Roman Dogma and compare it to holy scriptures and I think you may well begin to see what true Christianity is. Michael.

  • zach

    a public performance ritual…meaningless

  • Arrie

    The God that the Christian and Jews serve is YHVH – It cannot be uttered allah, no matter how hard you try.
    This god cyrus and other atheists are trying to convince Christians to accept is just a demon inspired and demon originated plan of deception against the truth of Christ and the victory which was won at the cross of Golgotha.
    There is only one way to the Father YHVH, through Yeshua HaMasiach – everyone else believing anything different is deceived and that deception has a purpose of offending and deceiving followers of truth.

    • omshhaol

      By deception, do you mean to imply something similar to all the contradictions between the Torah and the Talmud?

      • Arrie

        No. To understand the deception Christians need to guard against, read 2 Thess 2:3-4, 1 Tim 4:1, 2 Tim 4:3-4 – these are key versus, read the chapters to understand.
        But I suppose this is where you would love me to say, “mmm, please tell us about these great contradictions?”

  • omshhaol

    Turns out, this is all yet another bullshit story concocted by the ChristianNews.Net