Deacons Detained as Chinese Churches Re-Erect Demolished Crosses

Cross China AidZHEZIANG, China (China Aid) Authorities detained two church deacons in Wenzhou on Sunday and Monday after churches re-erected crosses that had been demolished.

Wenzhou police detained Huang Xiaoyuan, a deacon of Shangzhou Church in the Tengqiao religious district, and Zhang Zhi, a deacon of Xianqiao Church, last week. Police have provided no information about Huang while Zhang was sentenced to five days in administrative detention.

On Sunday, the Shangzhou Church in Wenzhou re-erected their church’s cross, and authorities subsequently cut off the church’s power. Church members then brought their own generator-powered lighting. The church members were later approached by the local Communist Party branch secretary and told to take the cross back down.

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  • D Sims

    I would like to see a show of hands, who is surprised?

    • Darlene McCastle

      unfortunately it appears as tho his identity and loyalty is based more on his affiliation with Obama than with his faith in Christ. He sold out….that’s sad.

    • janis shouse

      i believe most , not all of those big churches are after the money and numbers

  • ElevenHerbs Andspices

    ” Ye shall know them by their fruits ” Matt 7:16

    • Bonnie Causer

      amen!!! NOW I know why I could never get into this man, even after Dr. Phil had him on his show, he is a in the shadows christian shame on you

      • amostpolitedebate

        Wait. You take people more seriously just because they appear on Dr Phill?

        Also: Dr Phill is still a thing!?

    • amostpolitedebate

      *Casually glances at churches attempting to legalize discrimination*

      • Sherry Embry

        I encourage you to pull out your Bible and look and see what it says. Ask the Holy Spirit to enlighten your understanding in this area. Tell Him I don’t want to discriminate against your holy word. Revelation of the Spirit helps to remove our prejudices so we can see and be made free.

      • Thisoldspouse

        Discrimination is the stuff of life. it is what enables us to live. Yeah, even YOU do it – all the time.

        • amostpolitedebate

          Said the man with a confederate flag avatar.

  • Mike M

    “For such men are FALSE apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is NOT surprising, then, if his servants masquerades as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.” 2Corinthians 11:13-15 ~~~ FLEE ALL SEXUAL IMMORALITY ~~~ MARANATHA

    • Julie Applewhite

      amen to all you said.

  • Darlene McCastle

    woe to the pastors who lead their flocks astray…

    • janis shouse

      right the bible says in Revelation i believe, that those pastors will have a special place in hell

      • amostpolitedebate

        I find it odd that you’d willingly follow a God that would torture a man for eternity just for trying to do the right thing and be kind to his fellow man.

        • Joseph Kivaya

          My Views 2

        • really? stop. disagreeing with a lifestyle choice is not hating or lacking compassion. everyone has sin, accepting a lifestyle choice has nothing to do with being kind to his fellow man, he’s trying to get his attendance and fame up. sad.

          • amostpolitedebate

            No. But fireing, abusing, or denying them service just for being gay is.

          • who’s doing that? you can come in the church, but you can’t be holding hands and doing the sin in the church. you can’t lead the ministry in the church. you’re always welcome to come to church, learn the word and work out your salvation according to the word, and no one should be hateful towards you, because gay is not a people, its a behavior. its a lie that if you don’t agree with a lifestyle choice, you hate people. people hate liars, but people lie all the time and don’t feel discriminated against. its not that complex of an issue if we are all honest about it.

          • amostpolitedebate

            “who’s doing that?”

            Lot’s of so-called Christians do. And when they do most of the major bible-based organizations bend over backwards to make sure such actions stay/become legal.

          • Uh a church can kick anyone out, it’s not illegal or violating anyone’s rights. It’s a religious establishment not a McDonald’s. The rule book is the bible and if that’s being violated, the church has the right to stop people from breaking the rules on the premises. I can’t go into a mosque with a ham sandwich and get mad when they kick me out.

          • lol stop, no one is condoning any abuse, your making up things to pretend its some extreme thing. stop. first of all no one denies them being baptized or coming to service, you just can’t perform the sin in service, so you can’t come as a couple. and as far as firing, again this isn’t a mcdonalds, its a religious establishment, in which when the rules are violated you are not allowed to lead in the ministry at any capacity. your complaints are laughably and cartoonishly unrealistic. you can’t force someone to accept a lifestyle choice that goes against the rules of the establishment. the purpose of the church is to follow God, this should not be undermined. you can’t seriously believe what’s coming out of your mouth.

          • gay is not a people, and no one is being denied service, its not a mcdonalds, its the word of God, if a person doesn’t accept the plainly written word of God that’s their fault. no one is stopping anyone from being baptized or changing their lives and coming to God. so that’s a lie. as far as firing, its not a mcdonalds, its a religious establishment where the word is the rule, and if that isn’t followed you can’t lead at any capacity in the church. you can’t come in the church as a gay couple and then compromise the message of God, and no one is condoning any abuse of any kind. you’ve entered the realm of make believe with the charge of condoned abuse, and are trying to pretend this is a normal place of business, its a religious establishment. stop lol. you are reaching now.

          • amostpolitedebate

            “Hey no one is being abused! All you have to do is stop liking boys and become (the right kind of) Christian and we’ll stop treating you with open hostility or contempt!”

            Also just to be clear neither I nor the pastor are advocating that we force churches to allow gay leadership. The issue is more about businesses firing people for being gay, gay people being assaulted for coming out of the wrong bar, or people being denied products or services based on their perceived sexual identity. That kind of thing.

          • I said no one is condoning abuse. you’re trying to pretend abuse is condoned, abuse happens everywhere, you can stop playing pretend now. thanks. lol.

            this is not about products and services and being the wrong sexuality. its about churches accepting homosexuality or being for the cause of the LGBT community, the church has no part in this, because its not a legitimate cause, as no human rights are legally violated, everyone has protection, but privately owned businesses can hire and fire people for literally any reason. I can get fired for being black and nothing could be done about it. christianity can not stand by a cause defending sin. it’s like defending a dating website for adultery, that’s not the christian arena, that’s a constitutional lawyers arena. The church should not take part in these kinds of things.

          • amostpolitedebate

            OK. Let’s take this point by point:

            “I said no one is condoning abuse.” – Except for all the people that are. Yourself included. You just don’t want to call it that name.

            ” as no human rights are legally violated, everyone has protection” – Except where they don’t. For example in many places you can be denied housing or be fired for being gay. Hell, until just a couple decades ago violent crimes against gay people were routinely ignored by the authorities.

            “but privately owned businesses can hire and fire people for literally any reason. I can get fired for being black and nothing could be done about it.” – Where are you getting this? Businesses explicitly can NOT fire you just for being black/Christian/Russian. If they DO fire you for that reason you can sue for damages and/or your job back. It’s not an absolute or perfect protection by any stretch. But it’s a protection gay people simply don’t have in some areas.

            “The church should not take part in these kinds of things.” – No one is saying they should. We’re just asking that they leave people who disagree with them in peace.

          • sigh, its not abuse to disagree with a lifestyle choice. you’re acting as if the entirety of christianity is condoning real valid abuse. that’s a lie. lol

            see the fallacy of your argument is that, you think gay is a people, gay is a behavior, that’s why its not protected everywhere, its a behavior!!! I just am black, there’s literally nothing I have to do to be black, gay is something you do, not something you are. church is not one of these businesses and has no business protecting a sin. I don’t hate anyone, because its a behavior and we all have behaviors not condoned, by scripture, the peculiar thing is that this particular behavior seems to be real touchy and christians want to pretend the bible isn’t clear on this when it is in both new and old testaments.

            see this is saying that the church can stand by the LGBT community, which is a violation and what makes TD Jakes wrong in what he’s saying. the man is building up his membership with this one. I don’t condone having signs up and saying God hates fags or fags will die, or whatever provoking thing done to anyone. I think there should be room for dialogue, but people can not assume christianity is okay with that lifestyle, when it so very clearly isn’t. Saying every church is different and have different ideas is a true real life statement, but as a christian it is or should be assumed that the word, not people’s opinion is what christianity is built upon. that’s the problem with this entire thing.

        • Sherry Embry

          God does not choose to torture us. He sent His Son to die on the cross for us and was tortured in our place. He rose again so we could be saved. We can choose to reject or believe freely what He has done for us. When we believe we will repent, that means to change our thinking. If our thinking is at odds with God, we yield.

          There is a great responsibility that rest on ministers of the gospel. In Titus 1:9 it says that ministers must be faithful in holding fast to sound doctrine and must be able to refute contradictions to scriptures. So you see they should have a thorough grasp on doctrine to teach and lead people correctly not astray. This is a qualification of being a pastor.

          What if you were responsible for guiding a large group of people, and your very instructions and their compliance to them would determine whether or not they would live or die? Would you feel any weight of responsibility if you flubbed that up? Preaching is serious business – make no mistake about it. The outcome is to costly. In fact, eternal.

          • amostpolitedebate

            “God does not choose to torture us.”

            Yes he does. It’s his universe and his rules. He could change or make exceptions to them them whenever he wanted.

  • Hilda Beard

    Sin is sin and we are not to be part of it

    • amostpolitedebate

      So don’t have a gay lover. Just do the hetero married thing and leave everyone else alone. It literally costs you nothing and society as a whole is better for it.

      • Sherry Embry

        There is a cost- a soul which has eternal value. We all stand before the judgment seat of God at the end of our lives and give an account. The Bible says that this life is just a vapor that is quickly fading. But eternity that’s forever. Our lives are like a pimple on the horizon of time, here today and gone tomorrow. Keep eternity at the front of your mind.

        • amostpolitedebate

          I don’t see how that means you have to be rude to people who don’t see it that way.

  • Looks like the wolves are shedding their sheep clothes more and more.


    I believe when asked, God responded “I AM” not “I will be” or “I will become.” There’s no evolution with God. And he doesn’t change to cater to man’s desires.

    //**“Paul spends a lot of time wrestling back and forth, trying to understand should a woman wear a head covering, should you cut your hair,”**//

    How did this person become a pastor[sic]?

    • Disqusdmnj

      Didn’t your god “evolve” once he decided not to wipe out humanity a second time with a flood?

      • WorldGoneCrazy

        Watch out – there’s a giant wave headed your way! 🙂

        • Disqusdmnj

          Hasn’t happened in 46 years yet, Crazy… but I guess I can wait another 50 more or so.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            But, Disqusdmnj, don’t you believe in the existence of Hell? The “wave” I was referring to will hit you one second after you physically die. That might be in 50 years, or it might be tomorrow morning. I pray it is a long time so that you can examine all of the good arguments for God’s existence. Good seeing you again, BTW – it has been awhile, hasn’t it?!?

          • amostpolitedebate

            Not to be rude. But your god sounds like kind of a jerk. Why should anyone do anything he says?

          • Watcher

            If for no other reason, at least because He is God – Supreme and Sovereign. There are other reasons but try chewing on this one first.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            “your god sounds like kind of a jerk.”

            Even if that were true, there is nothing wrong with being a jerk on atheism. There are no grounds for objective moral values and duties on atheism – no right or wrong – and your “pope” and “cardinals” agree with me here:

            “In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication,
            some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, or any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference… DNA neither knows nor cares. DNA just is. And we dance to its music.” (Richard Dawkins, River Out of
            Eden: A Darwinian View of Life (1995))

            “Let me summarize my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear — and these are basically Darwin’s views. There are no gods, no purposes, and no goal-directed forces of any kind. There is no life after death. When I die, I am absolutely certain that I am going to be dead. That’s the end of me. There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning in life, and no free will for humans, either.” A-theist William Provine

            “The position of the modern evolutionist is that humans have an awareness of morality because such an awareness of biological worth. Morality is a biological adaptation no less than are hands and feet and teeth. Considered as a rationally justifiable set of claims about an objective something, ethics is illusory. I appreciate when someone says, ‘Love thy neighbor as thyself,’ they think they are referring above and beyond
            themselves. Nevertheless, such reference is truly without foundation. Morality is just an aid to survival and reproduction, . . . and any deeper meaning is illusory.” (Michael Ruse, “Evolutionary Theory and Christian Ethics,” in The Darwinian Paradigm (London: Routledge, 1989), pp. 262-269).

            Morality and ethics are just personal preferences – ice cream flavors – in your world. Do you condemn other people for choosing chocolate instead of vanilla?!? 🙂

            “Why should anyone do anything he says?”

            Because He created us and sustains us: without Him, you would not exist right now. In fact, nothing, except God would exist right now, had He chosen to not bring 100 billion galaxies into existence out of nothing. And for that, I say, “God bless you!”

          • Anita Wages

            Not even the Angels in Heaven know the time or day.

          • Disqusdmnj

            Of course not, they don’t exist either! 🙂

          • patra

            disques, you are totally deceived, you are a child of the devil, and we know your ending is going to be painful and horrible unless you repent and turn to Jesus , t d jakes is a false preacher, he is headed where you are also

          • Disqusdmnj

            And I’m sure you love the idea of my ending. Wrong though!

      • tfraymond

        Not at all — he gave humanity a 2nd chance. Frankly, the homosexual movement is foolish to embrace God’s symbol for mercy in the midst of judgement as their flag.

        • Disqusdmnj

          I like what we’re doing with our so-called second chance then. 😉

      • You’re seriously confused in your thinking. You’re actually contending that God will not destroy the earth with a second flood, therefore, he has evolved? How’d you make that connection? How God wraps up the whole thing is a method. Not an evolution.

        Plus–despite your pitiful trolling attempt–God’s judgment and the standards, there of, will be the same for everyone. No evolving. The only question you should be asking yourself is if salvation will come by Jesus Christ or damnation by your own will?

        Please, if you’re going to troll, at least be less parochial about it.

        • Disqusdmnj

          I figured maybe he thought about all the innocent people he killed just trying to wipe the place clean because a few of them made him angry. Clearly, not *everyone* who lived on the entire planet back then (whenever it was) was guilty of a crime worthy of death by deity drowning, no?

          I guess we’re just at his whimsy, then. Angry enough to flood the place once, apparently, but for now he’s just letting us slide, as though there aren’t enough horrible things going on in the world to warrant another reboot, according to him.

          Or, he could just wait for our Sun he made to finally burn up its fuel, expand, and consume us all in fire. Sounds like that’s what he wants for the majority of people without need of a savior… and hey, at that point who can argue over what caused the end of our world anyway, right?

          • Brad

            What “innocent people” are you referring to? There are NO innocent people before God, in fact, ALL are condemned already. God in His grace saves some but all are guilty and deserve death.

          • Joseph Kivaya

            hehehe listen to urself man, we will all meet in hell man, if it ever exist, Jesus Himself was very clear, “There are no righteous man including me, except for the father”….. “there are no little sin of big sin”……”wages of sin is death”…. “For I say unto you, That except the righteousness shall inherit the kingdom of God”… so stop wasting you time judging others, live ur life and let others live theirs, I cant judge gays either, coz they don’t affect my life at all

          • Disqusdmnj

            Such a loving god to create people already condemned to a deserved death. Not the life I lead, thankyouverymuch.

          • Anita Wages

            Disqus – you are heading to Hell if you don’t accept the Lord.

          • Disqusdmnj

            How loving of Him!

          • Joseph Kivaya

            Christians God is such a loving creator, that He decided to create a “forbid tree”, knowing very well they will sin, to have an excuses to punish mankind forever, including creating them guys so that His “followers” can persecute them, such a loving God.

    • Thisoldspouse

      “Evolving” = Apostatizing.

      You know, that equality thing and all.

  • janis shouse

    he is then a false preacher, Jesus warned us of these kind of preachers, know your bible, the bible plainly says homosexuality is sin, and abomination, yes they should be treated good and we should love and pray for them, but not lie to them telling them it is ok, that is a lie, guess people like him are just looking for numbers and money they get from them, these are the very last of the last of days, be ready and be careful who you follow

    • Julie Applewhite


    • amostpolitedebate

      He’s not a “false preacher”. He just has a different view on the bible and it’s relationship to the state than you.

      • LoreneFairchild

        According to Biblical teachings he is a false preacher. His doctrine has been questionable for some time now.

      • Sherry Embry

        He does have a different view about the role God plays in the state. His views are far removed from our founding fathers. This is a nation founded on Biblical principles. Is he choosing to throw in with the secularist agenda? It sounds that way to me. I am saddened and grieved by this and will pray for him. To ignore the role or the governing influence of God in laws of morality is to ignore the Lawgiver himself. What’s most troubling to me is that his evolving or growing seems to be coming from worldly influence instead of Scripture. In Revelation, Jesus warns a church that is letting go of sound doctrine that unless they repent and correct it
        he would judge them and remove there candle stick in the earth. That means that there influence or witness is cut off. I urge you to be alert, this is serious business when pastors overseeing the flock of God lead them astray.

      • There is only one absolute view

        And that view is stating true to what God says about morality. Nice try though

        • amostpolitedebate

          Which parts should we stay true to? There seems to be quite a lot of debate on that issue. Should I pay attention to the New Testament? The Jewish crowd is telling me I can ignore it. How about the Gnostic Gospels, the Book or Mormon or the Koran?

  • Disciple of Jesus

    “Take care that no one misleads you,” answered Jesus; for many will come assuming my name and saying ‘I am the Christ;’ and they will mislead many.”
    Matthew 24:4-5

    • WalkingLadyLiberty

      TD Jakes… I did not think that you would be one of them…

    • amostpolitedebate

      The irony of this quote is that I’m pretty sure the type of people he had in mind were the type who would wrap their hatred and bigotry in his words. Makes you think…

      • LoreneFairchild

        No He was referring to those who would depart from sound Biblical doctrine…..and disagreement isn’t the same as “hatred and bigotry”.

        • Coretta Shelton

          I find it funny no strange so many try to speak for others based on so little information, especialy interpreting what they mean when they do not even know themselves no stand on doctrine because what will get us into heaven is totally difrent from misleading a person such as a homosetual person or persons because it is clear in the bible on this and it does not evolve , just our belief in the person Jesus christ and that is not any other way except jesus If we speak the truth some of the homosetuals may have a clearn understanding of salvation for all men who are a sinner can be saved.

          • Sherry Embry

            The Bible says to repent and be converted.

        • amostpolitedebate

          Is not compassion and love for your enemies not a central part of Jesus’s teachings?

          Also, “disagreement” in these sorts of debates is usually code for “actively being a jerk to people for living in ways I don’t like”

          • LoreneFairchild

            Compassion and love for our enemies includes telling them the Truth in love.

          • amostpolitedebate

            And when they say “thanks but no thanks” I assume you politely drop the subject and let them be?

      • Nice try but God does not rationalize immorality unlike you.

        Do not twist scripture to support your perversion.

  • David Lee

    You have to listen deeper to what he believes. It’s not what he’s saying that should catch your attention, it’s what he’s not saying. I don’t believe any one of us are perfect however practicing deceit by attempting to sway public opinion away from Biblical truth is crafty. All these play on words strung together in a fancy fashion can never make wrong right… even when you’re the one mixed up in the complexities of the wrong doings. Repent and come clean.

  • Mary Specht

    The headline says he is for “gay marriage”. Read the article. I believe he said he was for “gay equality”. In my mind that would mean a legal contract protecting the anyone gay but not a marriage which is only between a man and a woman. I believe we can all learn to accept and love one another and our differences but we don’t have to agree with someone else. We can disagree respectfully. There are legal contracts that could be drawn up – even a law if necessary – protecting all gays and lesbians and their life style. But that is far as I can go.

    • JC

      Mary, I got the very same impression. Like you, I am not in agreement with the gay lifestyle or gay marriage, but I do believe that every living being has equal rights. I don’t think we need laws for this protection. We already have laws in place that give equal protection to all. Unfortunately the gay advocates as well as liberal courts have given way to what can only be deemed as “special” protections. I feel that straight, gay or whatever your leanings – all should be welcome into our churches and embraced. It doesn’t mean we have to agree with the lifestyle, but if someone is seeking out God through attending Church, they also need to seek His Truths that can only be found in the Bible. It’s there they will find that God’s word does not change with the social or political climate of the times.

      • Disqusdmnj

        Still no, JC. They are not “special protections,” because a gay couple could not get married before. They were rights that were being denied, rights that we as straight people had as one group, rights that were not given to other couples because they were gay. They do not have “protections”, they have equal *rights*, now that it’s been corrected.

        • Brad

          So, should someone have the “right” to marry their dog, or what about their sister, or perhaps one of their parents?

          • Anita Wages

            Discus would say yes, we should be able to marry our sister, or one of our parents or even our pet. That is part of the gay agenda. Just marry anyone you want. It’s a new world and they are wallowing in it.

          • patra

            its already beginning, did you see where a man married his son, another man came to court and wanted to marry his horse, churches will be persecuted if they don’t marry gays or appoint gay ministers, can be jailed also, equal rights ? no special rights

          • amostpolitedebate

            1) I hadn’t heard about that one. Was it because it never happened?

            2) Churches can’t be forced to marry people they don’t like. That was part of the decision and most gay advocates are fine with that.

          • Thisoldspouse

            1. Yes, it happened. It was an “adopted” son, but that is still illegal.

            2. Yes, homo-Nazis most definitely ARE telling churches that their “marriage” must be recognized. It has happened many times, even before the Supreme Court decision.

          • amostpolitedebate

            1) Source? Please be sure to include evidence that this is advocated for by the wider gay community and not just some lone wackjob being crazy.

            2) Examples? I’ve been following this issue for a while and I haven’t seen anyone advocating forcing churches to do gay weddings. They want the ability to get married by the STATE. But that’s hardly the same thing.

            3) LOL at the guy with the confederate flag avatar calling people nazis.

          • Thisoldspouse

            Yep, “love” is all that is required. Isn’t that what the Gaystapo has been preaching at us ad nauseam for years?

          • Disqusdmnj

            Of course not… you understand what “consenting adults” are, right?

          • Brad

            Sure I do. So, if the dad is an adult and the daughter is an adult, they should be allowed to marry? Is that what you are declaring?

          • Disqusdmnj

            Also of course not, as we’ve discovered that the state has a vested interest in closely-related people not procreating, as the offspring tends to have genetic issues, as well as difficulties in maintaining guardianships.

            You’re arguing up the wrong tree. It’s no different than regular “traditional” marriage, only the two parties have the same happy pieces. Just because your church doesn’t like it doesn’t mean the country has to prohibit it, especially when it’s already been happening for years and decades in other areas and shown to have no ill effect on families.

          • Thisoldspouse

            No, there is no “vested interest” in allowing family members to marry, moron.

            There are virtually no genetic abnormalities associated with incest. It is over many generations of interbreeding that problems occur.

          • Disqusdmnj

            Vested interest in *prohibiting*, not allowing… you “moron,” as it were, since you’re reduced to name calling.

            And if this site didn’t get so worried about someone posting a website link that might actually contain some useful facts, I’d be linking to the one that shows why it’s no bueno to have closely related people procreate.

          • Brad

            So a brother and sister who are adults should be allowed to marry?

        • Therese

          Our nation was founded on the clear “self-evident” truths that our rights come from the Creator. The Creator who made us male and female for His purposes. The Creator never granted the “right” for two men or two women to marry. The only reason humans have rights is because they are created in God’s image and they have the right to serve God not gov’t.

          I understand the you prefer to ignore God and embrace fallible man-made gov’t as your source. That is a huge mistake. History has shown over and over again that man makes a terrible task master. You have traded true liberty for temporary pleasure that will lead, in the end, to death. The good news is that you can choose to embrace the life that God gives if you decide to. He won’t reject you. But right now you have rejected Him – the Source of all life.

          • Disqusdmnj

            You’re using words from our Founding Documents, which we as Americans follow. Now, there are new documents that we follow which include SSM.

            Whatever created Nature created all of us. That’s why the Founders didn’t expressly say “God”… They didn’t know either. So thankfully we follow our laws, not Leviticus verses.

      • Anita Wages

        JC – you said our churches should embrace the gay lifestyle. What church do you attend? Most likely one that has a gay or transgender minister?

      • amostpolitedebate

        “We already have laws in place that give equal protection to all.”

        Except for where they don’t.

    • wakingdreaming

      Equality under the law includes marriage. You can’t call it equality unless it’s equal.

      • Therese

        Two men are in no way equal to a man and a woman. Humanity consists of male and female, and marriage unites the two halves. Relationships between two men consist of only one half of humanity; a relationship between two of the same.

        A male female union carries potential to change and elevate each other. Only that union can make the woman a mother and the man a father. Only a male female union creates new life in their image. A male with a male is an impotent union. It neither carries potential to create new life in its image nor make anyone a mother – only another father, more of the same.

        Two dads are not equal to a mom and dad. Neither of the dads conceive a child in love, or can birth a baby nor nurse it. Neither dad can experience what it is to be a woman, and can not model that to a child.

        These things ought to be obvious to everyone and it is quite astounding that people choose to ignore the plain facts of biology. The male female union is inherently unique, and no other human relationship is its equal.

        Gay marriage does not make gay unions equal to male female unions. It simply destroys and denies the uniqueness of what true marriage is; the union of the two halves of humanity which brings forth offspring in its image, uniting that offspring with its source and producing the next generation.

        • amostpolitedebate

          Why do anti-gay people always forget that lesbians exist?

      • Thisoldspouse

        No one has been denied marriage. NO ONE. Heck, even Vicki Gene Robinson, “gay” Episcopal Bishop, married over a decade ago and had kids with his wife.

        Case closed.

    • Disqusdmnj

      Um, no… it’s a marriage, accepted by the state, just like yours and mine as straight folks. That is the legal contract of which you speak – your church has no “legal” document in the realm of state affairs of couples. Your church doesn’t need to recognize it or allow it or perform it whatsoever. But SSM is now a federal and state law that affords the couples the same benefits and protections that the rest of us married couples have. That is all. And no “legal contracts” like you offer need be drawn, so it doesn’t really matter how far you can go, because this has already been decided by law.

      • Brad

        God’s design for humanity is marriage between a man and a woman for life. Human government did not come up with this concept, He did.

        • Therese

          That is exactly right! And gay marriage is nothing short of man’s rebellion against the Creator. He is, after all, the One who made us in His image – male and female.

        • amostpolitedebate

          So I take it you feel that marriage should go back to it’s roots of trading women like cattle then?

    • Anita Wages

      Protect them in their life style? They are going to answer to God on Judgement Day Mary.

      • amostpolitedebate

        Perhaps. But isn’t that for God to decide? What’s so horrible about just… letting them be wrong in peace? Maybe show them a little compassion and kindness along the way.

    • amostpolitedebate

      The problem with those types of contracts is that they inevitably have holes in them that lead to “separate but equal” problems. For example in one state a couple in a retirement home was forcefully broken up because their kids didn’t approve of the union.

  • The Ranger

    It doesn’t surprise me one bit.
    John 14:26
    “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you”. I discerned that spirit long ago.
    1 Corinthians 12:10
    to another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

    • Dave_L

      T.D. Jakes is Pentecostal too.

      • WorldGoneCrazy

        He is also a false prosperity “gospel” teacher, akin to Osteen.

  • WorldGoneCrazy

    “Every church has a different opinion on the issue”

    Well, see, that is the problem. Truth and morality are not defined by individual churches but by God. The authentic Church has not “evolved” on this issue for nearly 2000 years. So what changed?

    Not Jesus Christ.
    Not Scripture.

    Not the laws of hermeneutics.
    Not orthodoxy.
    Not orthopraxy.
    Not the Sanctity of Marriage.
    Not creeds.
    Not Church documents and statements of faith (until the last few years, of course).
    Not the epistles.
    Not objective truth.
    Not objective morality.
    Not moral law.
    Not even natural law.

    And, finally, not man’s desire for selfish sin and to gain autonomy from his Creator.

    So, what’s changed? Nothing! Except of course, some “churches” who think they can keep their collection plates full by following man instead of God.

    • LoreneFairchild

      AMEN! Well said!

    • percykins

      Which of the thousands of denominations of Christianity is the “authentic Church”? It’d be super-helpful to know.

      • LoreneFairchild

        There are many Bible based churches that teach authentic Christianity. However, going to church doesn’t make you a Christian….only a personal relationship with Jesus transforms one into a Christian.

        • percykins

          So “the authentic Church” is many different churches with many different interpretations of the Bible?

          • LoreneFairchild

            No…the authentic church is many different churches that uphold the essential doctrines of Christianity.

          • percykins

            Mmm. How about transubstantiation? Is that an essential doctrine?

          • LoreneFairchild

            No….The RCC believe that during communion we are literally ingesting the body of Christ. Protestant denominations typically believe that the wine and bread are symbolic of the body of Christ. This would not be an essential doctrine.

            The virgin birth, the crucifixion and bodily resurrection of Jesus, salvation by grace through Christ alone would be examples of essential doctrines.

          • percykins

            That’s not an essential doctrine? Funny, given that it was considered a massive difference in years past. Perhaps your “essential doctrine” isn’t quite as “essential” as you think it is. What other “essential” points of contention will go by the wayside in the coming decades and centuries, I wonder.

            How about divorce? Jesus Christ specifically admonishes people not to get divorced in the Bible, yet again we see a division between Catholics and many Protestants on this subject. Is ignoring the clear words of Jesus Christ on this subject also an “essential doctrine”?

          • LoreneFairchild

            Key words…”in years past”….I think the RCC and the Protestants have adopted a position of liberty in respect to communion.

            Divorce is way too common among Christians and that is a failure that we need to address.

          • percykins

            I agree that the RCC and the Protestants now do not see that as a point of “essential doctrine”. And as I said to you, I wonder what other points of “essential doctrine” will fall by the wayside in the coming decades or centuries. I think in this article you’re already seeing one.

          • Diana Baskin

            If they are teaching something that goes against God’s word they are teaching a lie. All liars will go to Hell with other sinners. The true Bible doesn’t change. People are trying to rewrite it but God’s word will stand forever. No man can over-rule God’s laws not even the Supreme Court.

          • percykins

            OK, so any church that teaches that communion is not the literal body of Jesus Christ is teaching a lie, and any church that allows divorce is teaching a lie, yes?

          • Eduardo Esteban Estes

            Jesus take and eat this bread and drink this wine in REMEMBRANCE of me.

          • percykins

            Where, exactly, are you quoting from? You’re certainly not quoting from the Gospels, since none of them say “remembrance”. You appear to be deliberately misquoting Corinthians: “and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.”” Always interesting to see people making up what they want the Bible to say.

          • Eduardo Esteban Estes

            You can read?

          • percykins

            Clearly I can, since I’m the only person who actually quoted from the Bible here. You simply made up what you wanted it to say and now you’re dropping some snark because you got caught and don’t have an answer. Find any passage in the Bible in which Communion is not directly described as Christ’s body, please.

          • Eduardo Esteban Estes

            Since Jesus is in heaven he did not think anyone here could eat his body or drink his blood on earth. Since he said do this meaning what is called communion in remembrance that eliminates the possibility of cannibalism in this. He did not ask them to eat his flesh or drink his actual blood in this verse did he?

          • percykins

            “He did ask them to eat his flesh or drink his actual blood in this verse did he?”

            He specifically said it was his body. You’re once again simply ignoring what was actually said.

            “meaning what is called communion in remembrance”

            Yes, I fully understand that you’ve decided to change its meaning. I particularly liked how you attempted to make up what the Bible said on the subject.

          • Eduardo Esteban Estes

            So Perc Jesus was saying just cut me up here on the spot? Is that right?

          • percykins

            He specifically said that the food was his body. Is Jesus Christ, the personification of God, unable to transform bread into his body? Water into wine, but not into the blood of the covenant, huh?

          • Eduardo Esteban Estes

            Jesus, as He often did, was speaking symbolically. To say He was speaking literally here does not fit with the word pictures He often used. After all, Jesus said He was the Bread of Life. And didn’t He say that He was the Door?

          • percykins

            Your explanations of why you ignore what Jesus clearly said are very interesting, Eduardo. You can find many equally inventive explanations for why gay people aren’t sinning as well.

          • St. James Harrell

            YOU didn’t answer his question.

          • percykins

            The rhetorical question of whether Jesus said he was the door? What? Do you need that answered? I mean, it’s clear that your knowledge of the Bible is sketchy at best but I’m sure you at least know that one, right?

          • Pico

            Please don’t shout.

          • St. James Harrell

            The capitalized YOU is for emphasis. I am not nor was I shouting. Please observe that there is no exclamation point.

          • St. James Harrell

            Utter nonsense.

          • percykins

            Believed by over one billion Catholic people.

          • Eduardo Esteban Estes

            It’s not snark it’s just I know what you and your ilk TRY to do.

          • percykins

            Quote the Bible? Yeah, I’ve noticed that Christians aren’t real big on that, like with you making up what you want it to say.

          • St. James Harrell

            The 12 seemed clear that Jesus wasn’t being literal when He spoke of eating his body and drinking his blood. t is obvious that Paul was clear that communion was not Christ’s literal body. He also describes the church as The Body of Christ. It is figurative language. They knew it wasn’t literal. Your argument is spurious and you know it. Quoting the scriptures in ignorance is as ignorant as not knowing them. The RCC’s teaching that the Eucharist becomes the literal body of Christ is not an essential doctrine, nor is Purgatory, The Veneration of Saints, Mary as Co-Redemtrix of Heaven, and on an on and on. Here is what Jesus said about homosexuality and heterosexuality. Sexual expression outside of marriage is sin. He defined marriage as one man and on woman. Divorce is permitted for fornication or sexual uncleaness: Greek word: Pornea. Which covers a range of sexual behaviors. Sticking to what Jesus said, All sexual behavior with another person outside of opposite gender marriage is sinful.

          • percykins

            Mmm. Remind me, was Paul actually at the Last Supper, like the Gospel writers? Funny how he was clear on something.

            And he did indeed use “food” as figurative language – of course, he didn’t then tell them to eat the church.

            But again, just as with Eduardo, you’re welcome to twist the Bible’s words however you would like to make it mean what you want it to mean. You call my argument “spurious” yet that is how the largest denomination in Christianity still views it. Which arguments are “spurious” and which are not are entirely dependent on what you want to believe. Such will be the case with homosexuality soon enough.

          • St. James Harrell

            I haven’t twisted anything at all. What id your view of Paul? Paid SAID that he received his instruction from the LORD (probably as he had the vision of Christ in Acts. You ruin your own argument by writing: “He didn’t tell them to eat the church.” EXACTLY. How do you have Jesus passing out wine and the unleavened bread at the table and saying this is my body…, etc., and have the expectation that he was being literal? How are they eating his body and viewing it whole? How did they eat his body and see him crucified? Your argument is spurious because it is inconsistent and nonsensical. You are being literal where it makes no sense to be literal; where is it clear to ALL of the disciples save Judas that Christ wasn’t being literal. It makes no difference that the RCC church teaches that it is the literal body or becomes the literal body. You argument is also spurious because you are raising red herrings to avoid the fact that Jesus did not condone any sexual activity outside of opposite sex marriage. You want to quote Jesus when it suits you and ignore Jesus when it doesn’t suit you. If you don’t believe the apostle Paul’s word that he received his account from the LORD then you’ll have to throw out the rest of the NT.

          • percykins

            Again, while I appreciate your enthusiasm on the subject of transubstantiation, you are calling an argument “spurious” when it is believed by over a billion people on this earth. Wars have been fought over this subject. Your every word proves my point – the fact that you think that an argument cannot be made doesn’t mean that people won’t believe it anyway.

            “avoid the fact that Jesus did not condone any sexual activity outside of opposite sex marriage”

            I like how I’m somehow avoiding that fact when I was the one who pointed it out. I am pointing out the historical fact that a large percentage of Christianity already completely ignores certain parts of what he did and did not condone on that subject. “Essential doctrines” change all the time, as you have made abundantly clear.

          • St. James Harrell

            Spurious still, sir. I speak as a Protestant and MANY millions of people have never accepted that doctrine of Transub.. Ask most people who claim to believe that they are actually consuming the literal Body and Blood of Christ and they will tell you they do not believe that, despite what they are taught in catechism. It is the RCC church that publishes that all of their adherents believe all they teach. You and I both know that is not true. Why use that argument here. It is not helpful nor true.
            You may do yourself some good by researching the essential beliefs of Christianity. As I said before being able to quote the Bible doesn’t make you an authority on what Christians actually believe. When it is all said and done. what you and me will have to answer to is how we lived in light of what the scriptures teach. Period.

          • percykins

            Are you even aware that you’re actually strengthening my point by claiming that many adherents to the church may not believe the “essential doctrine”? I like how you literally don’t seem to even understand what the point is here. You’re not helping yourself by pointing out that it changes over time quite apart from what a church may say.

          • Pico

            What’s not “essential doctrine”? Well, I guess that depends on what Christian you ask, doesn’t it?

          • St. James Harrell

            Please refrain from sarcasm. Thank you.

          • St. James Harrell

            Paul preferences that quote with the statement: I received this From the Lord. So how is Eduardo Estaban Estes deliberately misquoting Corinthians? He uses synopsis. You seem to be nitpicking just for the sake of argument.

          • percykins

            lol, he “uses synopsis”? Are you serious? He cuts out the middle part of the quote in which Jesus says the food is his body, Harrell. The lengths you guys will go to is unreal.

          • Ayobami Ogedengbe

            I love your angle of reasoning brother. And @ all, if we will just listen to percykins and leave our sentiments aside, what he is saying is that homosexuality is a sin ALRIGHT, but so is RE-MARRIAGE. He is only wondering why we are mild with Re-MARRIAGE and harsh on HOMOSEXUALITY. He now says his fear is that, with this compromising nature of the Church, he thinks that in some few years time, just as the Church has shifted grounds on the matter of RE-MARRIAGE by permitting or not seeing anything wrong with it (even though we don’t preach it but give consent to it), we might also shift grounds on the matter of HOMOSEXUALITY in no time. And I can say his fear is not baseless, if you look at some of the responses of T D Jakes up there, he clearly says homosexuals should find a church that supports their belief system. Why should any church support homosexuality or re-marriage if the Bible clearly comes against it. Let’s come together and not see percykins as an enemy, he is making a salient point. An issue of worry for anyone who chooses to see beyond the nose into the distant future. I hope the church doesn’t degrade to that level of immorality and repents also from her stand on re-marriage. God doesn’t hate you if you are a divorcee though, neither does He hate you if you are homosexual. But that’s not all, you just need to change your mind (repent) and let it conform to God’s standards on the two issues. And God’s standard on both issues is a NO NO. QED.

          • Vigilant Seraph

            I go to a church, a large one, one of those mega churches that some jump all over as being only about “numbers” They have made mistakes over the years,and when they do they take responsibility and fix them. They are still reaching people, and still growing disciples, birthing other churches, raising up strong leaders and serving the poor locally and globally in amazing ways. They bear good fruit. Their integrity has remained intact because while they reach out to non believers with some services, believers in the church are encouraged to become members and members are required to find accountability and participate in deeper spiritual practices and disciplines like worship, Bible study and respect for all God’s sacraments.

            This includes marriage which is a sacrament, a covenant relationship between one man, one woman and God. This church only marries divorced people after years of counsel and then only under certain circumstances. Pretty much if your ex is still alive and unmarried to another, you won’t be able to get remarried at this church. If the marriage ended because of your ex’s adultery you need to examine if the relationship can still be reconciled. (not saying its absolute, adultery is indeed a legitimate cause for divorce, but if the ex repents, reconciliation must be considered). This church takes marriage seriously. It must seem harsh to many churches today. They would rather offend people than violate what God gave us as a holy institution, and I defend their stance. Likewise they don’t condone SSM, or any other version of marriage that doesn’t honor God, There are others: those who live in sin and want to make their relationship “legit”, those who marry non-believers, who think marriage is long term “friends with benefits”, a romantic fairy tale, convenient cohabitation, a civil right. Social status, sex, romance, conveniences, civil rights, can all be found in marriage, but they aren’t the essence of it.

            More and more churches have given up trying to model marriage in a fallen world, and marriage was intended to reflect the relationship of God to his people. Marriage in many churches is no different than the world and the divorce rate confirms that. Gay people aren’t wrong to ask why it matters if they want to get married too. This nation has allowed it to become a civil institution that confers civil liberties. We have to reverse it entirely away from conferring any civil liberties to claim it is defined on our terms. Our terms, are not “one man, one woman” but “one man, one woman, sanctified and committed for life in a relationship that mirrors God and his church” I’m not saying churches have to accept gay marriages, not at all. The church should use this as a wake up call to figure out where they went wrong and how we got here, I agree with this poster that we have been letting the definition of marriage slide for years, and that its possible that if the churches of America don’t get back to honoring God in marriage, someday gay marriage could be commonplace.

          • Renee

            Amen! Hell will be crowded with those who did not adhere to God’s Word. What part’s hard? Gay marriage is an abomination unto God.

          • Eduardo Esteban Estes

            Percy is not really asking questions. He has his mind made up and is merely trying to find a loophole to allow sins. In this case it is homosexuality

          • Elkanah Onyeagoziri

            its written in the holy scripture that you shall know the truth and only the truth shall set you free.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Amen! The members of the Supreme Court will each stand individually before the Most Supreme Judge!

          • Eduardo Esteban Estes

            I really don’t see many who have gone through a divorce saying it is a great thing and everyone should do that.
            Most saved people who commit sins don’t do so happily. Homosexuals are the one group of sinners that think that their lifestyle should celebrated and blessed because of their sin!

          • percykins

            Mmm. Well, them and also divorcees who get remarried in a church, since they are clearly committing adultery by the words of Jesus Christ. Luke 16:18 “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.” Perhaps the divorcees are unhappy on their wedding day? When the minister asks for the blessing of God, do they stop him or her and say, “Wait a minute, this marriage is committing adultery in the eyes of God and shouldn’t be blessed?”

          • Eduardo Esteban Estes

            So basically you are trying to equate remarrying which is a sin with homosexuality which God calls an abomination?

          • percykins

            lol, I see, so sins are ok to celebrate in church and be blessed by God as long as he didn’t call them abominations? Want to know what else God called an abomination? “He who justifies the wicked” – Proverbs 17:15.

            Want to know who went right next to gay people in the list of people who would not inherit the kingdom of Heaven? “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,” 1 Corinthians 6:9

          • Eduardo Esteban Estes

            Nope. Unrepentant and unsaved people that have committed those sins. Homosexuals will not repent of their sin because at that point they will need to stop their sin. Anyone can be saved even murderers . But you have to repent and ask Christ to be your savior.

          • percykins

            Mmm. And when will remarried people repent of their sins and stop sinning?

          • Eduardo Esteban Estes

            When will you stop sinning?

          • percykins

            I don’t believe I am sinning, much as remarried people don’t believe they’re sinning, Eduardo.

          • Eduardo Esteban Estes

            Oh so you are sinless?

          • Eduardo Esteban Estes

            i am impressed. You must be the second person on this planet that was ever sinless? WOW!

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Oh yes, this was well-played!

          • percykins

            lol, what a ridiculous response – you just clearly don’t have anything at this point. Of course I’m not sinless, just as no one is sinless. But being in a faithful same-sex relationship is not one of those sins.

          • Eduardo Esteban Estes

            Homosexuality is a sin and an abomination which you can be forgiven. Christ does that you know if you repent!

          • percykins

            Mm-hmm. Keep justifying the wicked with your thoughts on remarriage, Eduardo – makes you just as much an “abomination” as me.

          • Eduardo Esteban Estes

            Hey you said you didn’t believe you are sinning. Just being accurate.

          • percykins

            You’re insulting your own intelligence at this point, Eduardo.

          • Eduardo Esteban Estes

            Nope just being literal.

          • ispeakout

            Not all pastors will perform marriages when there is a divorce, but some have the understanding that if there was unfaithfulness the innocent part can remarry based on particular verses of Scripture. People should not use what they see as hypocrisy in others to excuse other sins.
            Romans 1 explains how homosexuality is one of the judgments of God and how the homosexual desires are unnatural and shameful….and 1 Cor 6:11 speaks of “such were some of you”, and not such are some of you. Lust is a sin. Coveting is a sin. God created male & female & Eph. 5:25-33 describes what marriage is …a man with a wife which pictures Christ with the church.

          • percykins

            Has nothing to do with ‘excusing other sins’ – the point here is that the church has changed what it sees as sinful in the past and will do so again. Indeed, it is doing it now, as we see in this article. The Church has not survived for two thousand years by always saying the same thing – it says whatever people want to hear at any given time. Try watching the play The Crucible sometime.

          • ispeakout

            The Word of God hasn’t changed. Our standard should not be the church, but whether a church lines up with what God has said. When a church becomes corrupt, then it needs to be reformed to align up with the Word of God. His Word is the final authority.

            It has everything to do with your excusing the sin of homosexual behavior in trying to point out what you see as others disobedience to the Word of God. While I do not believe in remarriage, there are verses that could be understood that when there is sexual immorality or an unbelieving spouse leaves that divorce is allowed. While some see a passage in 1 Corinthians 7 that the “unmarried” are the divorced there are differing understandings on that.

            The meaning in Romans 1 is very clear on homosexuality, and so many other verses in Scripture make it very clear that it is a serious sin. Divorce is a sin. Sin is against the character of God. Homosexuality is one of the sins against a holy God. God is the perfect Judge, and the only way to be forgiven is to repent and trust in Christ’s death (taking the punishment for sins) and resurrection.

            Instead of dwelling on Eduardo, remember that we will each come before God. We will not be able to say, “Well, he was a sinner, so I can be excused.” Those who are Christ’s are forgiven, but their lives will be marked by a love for God and a changed life.

          • percykins

            “verses that could be understood that when there is sexual immorality or an unbelieving spouse leaves that divorce is allowed”

            You see many cases of remarriage where this is not the case. Again, this has nothing to do with “excusing” anything – the fact is that the church changes its beliefs all the time, and hence Christians do the same. You’re hung up on this “excusing” thing because you literally don’t get that your beliefs do not resemble the beliefs of a Christian 200 years ago. Right now, your church believes one thing – in two hundred years, it will believe something else, and people just like you will still argue just as fervently that the rules of God never change. Even Jesus said it, saying that not an iota would be removed from the Law – yet of course they got rid of that pesky circumcision thing and the whole “can’t eat certain foods” thing before the century was even out. Indeed, that change is why Christianity exists today – certainly wouldn’t have been adopted by the Romans otherwise, as indeed the very passage where that is changed states.

          • ispeakout

            Just because people get remarried wrongfully, doesn’t nullify God’s Word as absolutely true.
            The Bible talks about Christ fulfilling the law,
            The OT was also called the Law & the Prophets.
            We are in a New Covenant where there is the law of Christ, but Christians are now under grace & not the Law.
            The law is good, but it is made for unbelievers as a tutor to lead them to Christ.
            While there are differing views about continuity, there were clearly things in the Bible itself that show that circumcision, the sacrifices, etc., were not required. Acts 15 has the Council at Jerusalem requiring limited things of Gentile believers in New Covenant times. All foods were proclaimed clean first basically by Jesus and then again later.
            Clearly all true believers realize that works do not save. Ephesians 2:8-9 points that out.
            Why the change? Because Christ fulfilled the Law and His sacrifice was the ultimate sacrifice putting an end to the need for continual sacrifices to cover sin. Circumcision became of the heart and not the flesh.
            God hasn’t changed, but the OT was looking ahead to Christ and the old was a foreshadow of the ultimate fulfillment.
            Hebrews 9 explains better than I can.

          • Nellie Gragg

            People want to take part of a scripture and use it to justify their SIN instead of taking the whole scripture to see exactly what it is talking about.ALL sin is wrong in the sight of God and unless you REPENT you will one day stand before God for YOUR SINS not someone else sins but YOUR own sins.First of all, the divine standard for marriage is lifelong commitment to one’s spouse, and nothing else. Even though divorce was permitted in some cases under the Old Testament economy, Christ made it plain that this was not God’s ideal. When He was asked this very question,“He answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that He which made them at the beginning made them male andfemale, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder” (Matthew 19:4-6).This seems very comprehensive and conclusive, yet He immediately followed up this statement with the following apparent exception:
            “Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery” (Matthew 19:9; see also Matthew 5:31, 32).The apostle Paul added to the teachings of Jesus what is called the “Pauline privilege.” According to this concept, Paul taught that if an unbelieving spouse leaves a believer, the believer is not bound to the marriage relationship, but is free to remarry” (1 Corinthians 7:15). And some people recognize such a thing as a “constructive desertion,” which would be when a husband so brutalizes his wife that it is impossible to live with him any longer; or when a wife has so harassed, or brutalized her husband that it becomes impossible for him to stay with her. When that happens, whether or not the person actually moves out, the situation is the equivalent of desertion, and divorce and remarriage are permissible.

          • percykins

            Quite so, Nellie. As we see from your cogent explanation, what the scripture says is not the end. Jesus says one thing, Paul adds another, and then people in general add more, just as how today we see many churches allow divorce and remarriage for any reason. The Bible commands women to be silent in church and not to presume to teach men, yet again we see many churches ignoring that commandment.

            Like every religion, Christianity is what its followers believe at any given moment. It has changed before and will change again.

          • Nellie Gragg

            your right all this is irrelevant because this is what it boils down to SIN is SIN in the sight of God and if it has not been REPENT of then all will go before the Judgment seat of Christ and will be held accountable for those sin.I feel sad for you and I will pray for you to see that it doesn’t matter about all the reasoning in the world it matters where you will spend eternity and I hope one day you will believe that Jesus loves you

          • Christina H

            Since when is doing wrong determined by whether others are sinning?? Your argument is to make God’s word irrelevant because other people are in sin. Whether you like it or not, your actions are judged by their own merit, or lack of… not by what your neighbor(s) are doing wrong.

          • percykins

            Nothing I said in any way suggested that, Christina. Whether a same-sex relationship is a sin is not affected by whether a remarriage is a sin, and I am not making that claim. I am pointing out that much of Protestant Christianity currently happily ignores Jesus Christ’s clear teaching on the subject of remarriage, and suggesting that that will likely happen to same-sex relationships in the future, indeed, much as it has in several Protestant churches already.

          • WorldGoneCrazy


          • Eduardo Esteban Estes

            “Why then,” [the Pharisees] asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?” Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries [or, ‘in order to marry’] another woman commits adultery.” (Emphasis added)
            Most marriages end due to infidelity by one or both people.
            Divorce is tragic but I doubt most minister are going to do a background check to see if one or both people have been divorced.

          • percykins

            lol, what? Are you then suggesting that ministers do not marry people they know to be divorced? Honestly, you are just flailing HARD at this point.

          • Eduardo Esteban Estes

            You a assuming. Unless you go ask every minister what they do or do not do you have no proof one way or the other.
            But that is irrelevant. Like most of your opening here it is just typing to justify homosexuality which is your sin that you are advocating for. You do what sinners often do. Point to what someone else does or may do and use that as a justification for what you are doing! Children do the same thing all the time. So and so did this so i can.

          • percykins

            “Unless you go ask every minister what they do or do not do you have no proof one way or the other.”

            lol, the nonsense is endless. Ministers marry people whom they know to be divorced every day – I really don’t care if you’re going to pretend to not believe that, honestly. At this point you patently have nothing so I think we’ll end it here. Keep justifying remarriage because it’s not as bad as homosexuality. In twenty to thirty years I suspect you’ll be twisting yourself up just as hard to show that homosexuality is fine.

          • Eduardo Esteban Estes

            I am not justify anything. You are trying to justify either your own sin or the sin of homosexuality in general by pointing out what someone else does.
            You can try it but from what I have read salvation is dependent on YOU making the choice to accept Christ and turning from your sin. Not what someone else may or may not do.

          • Christina H

            Hmmm. Sounds an awful lot like the Pharisees.

          • percykins

            In what sense, exactly?

          • RossaRemy

            The Doctrine of the Real/True Presence is of the upmost importance. Read what Jesus said about it in the Bible and what the apostles wrote about it in the Didache (the teaching/practices of the apostles).

          • WorldGoneCrazy


          • Chasity Portis

            The point was “get a personal relationship with God” and let Him lead you to the correct church!!!!

          • percykins

            What if He leads you to a church which affirms gay people and gay relationships as a valued part of the community of God, as He has done with many people?

          • Eduardo Esteban Estes

            God will not lead anyone to what he says in sinful. Homosexuals should be invited to church. That church has a duty to say homosexuality is a sin and if it steps on their toes they will have to decide to leave or stay!

          • Sherry Embry

            The real church is the believers in Christ who are born again. The Bible calls them the body of Christ on the earth – check out Ephesians 1.
            You will want to find a church that preaches or teaches from the Bible alone.

          • L Fe

            amen sister.

          • The Ranger

            .John 14:26
            “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” . Who is your interpreter? There is only one church and it is invisible the born again church it’s authentic like the author and finisher
            Hebrews 12:2
            “looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God”.

          • percykins

            So you’re saying that each person should listen to the Holy Spirit within and find the truth that God puts there? Isn’t that pretty much exactly what Jakes is saying?

          • L Fe

            no..all I got from Jakes is that he has evolved and is still evolving on this whole homosexual thing. I gather from him (not only from this article but a long time ago – years actually) that he seems to be moving away from teachings of the bible and mingling with the world’s views; therefore it sounds nice etc but to a born-again Christian, whistles and bells do not distract from the truths of God’s word. Read the bible percykins and you will find the answers.

          • Sherry Embry

            The Holy Spirit will never lead you contrary to Scripture. They are one and the Scripture is forever settled in heaven. The Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of truth who will lead and guide us into all truth. The Bible alone is our standard by which to measure all doctrine and teaching.

          • fireart

            The trouble of listening to the holy spirit within is placing yourself above God . The Holy Spirit is in the word of God and if the word within you does not line up with the word of God then it is false.

          • L Fe

            AMEN brother

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Beautiful! Thank God for the Holy Spirit – that’s all I can say! His Grace redeemed this most unworthy atheist and a chief of sinners too!

            ‘They only heard the report: “The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” ‘ — Galatians 1:23

          • VChristine

            When God’s people permit the holy spirit within to perform the role He was sent to perform, as the teacher of men (John 16:13) using the scriptures as a textbook, the resulting grasp of truth is always the same.

            Divisions are born from men who seek to teach the doctrines of other men, and who only study the doctrines of men, rather than the scriptures with the holy spirit as teacher;

            Which is often because these teachers/ministers, are not born again to begin with – therefore they have no holy spirit within to listen to;

            Other reasons stem from the pride and lust of the flesh, which as the homosexual issue illustrates; ministers as we see here wrest the scriptures to justify their own illicit desires and justify their actions to enable their lusts. It is assured that they will receive a just recompense – for there is no mocking God.

            Watch their fruit; By their fruit you will know.

          • percykins

            “the resulting grasp of truth is always the same.”

            So again I ask, given the thousands of different denominations, all with their own interpretation of the Bible, which one is the one that has grasped the truth?

          • Diana Baskin

            There is only one true church. People can try to twist the Bible to make it say what they want it to say so they can have an excuse to sin but their is still one Lord one Faith and one Baptism. There is only one way to be saved. On Judgment God will separate the ones who are his from the others who are not keeping his word. People’s private interpretation of the Bible won’t count. You can’t fool God.

          • percykins

            OK. So clearly any church which allows divorces by its members isn’t following the word of God, correct? I mean, Jesus Christ himself says that divorces are fundamentally sinful. So is that one easy way to eliminate a bunch of churches from the “true church”?

          • Eduardo Esteban Estes

            These people that are divorced went through a terrible time I am sure they will say and they most likely would not be ones to say hey glorify me because we sinned and got divorced.
            Homosexuals are arrogantly disobeying God in sin and demanding that their sin be held up as something glorious!

          • percykins

            Except that divorce itself is not the sin – remarrying is the sin. Luke 16:18: “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.” A church marriage of a divorced person then clearly glorifies adultery and disobeys God. Yes? I mean, this is the word of God here, right?

          • Eduardo Esteban Estes

            Ok let’s assume we are talking about remarrying. Those who remarry had to divorce first. None of those people would hold up that or any other sin as something to be exalted. EXCEPT homosexuals. They want the church to exalt their sin. Percy drop the acting like you have questions. You don’t. You have already made up your mind on this subject. You are doing what sinners try to do. Find a loophole to allow your particular sin you think is ok!

          • percykins

            “None of those people would hold up that or any other sin as something to be exalted.”

            You’re just trying to ignore the question. The Bible clearly states that a divorcee marrying is adultery. Yet it happens in churches around the country all the time. You amusingly start out with “let’s assume we are talking about remarrying” but can’t actually talk about it.

            “You have already made up your mind on this subject”

            Says the person who made up what he wanted the Bible to say on Communion, and simply openly ignores what it says on divorce.

            “Find a loophole to allow your particular sin you think is ok!”

            Divorcees don’t even bother finding a loophole – they and the rest of the church simply wholesale ignore Jesus’ clear directives on this subject, just as you are doing.

          • Eduardo Esteban Estes

            However what someone else does or doesn’t do isn’t going to excuse your sin Perc!

          • percykins

            Nope – the churches will excuse my sin eventually, just as they do with divorcees today.

          • Eduardo Esteban Estes

            Being saved by Christ gets forgiveness of sin. What a church does or doesn’t do in regard to your sin will not save you. It is what YOU do about your sin and your relationship with Christ that will determine your future!

          • Christina H

            You are amiss and lost. You have disdain for the word of God and do what the Pharisees did in Jesus time; attempt to justify your sins so you can continue practicing your sins and “feel” absolved. Without repentance you are lost. When you walk away from here, you are no more vindicated than when you walked in. It’s not what you think or your interpretation, God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Your own heart and acts will judge you and each and every one of us. Your unbelief does not change the fact that God is real and just.

          • percykins

            Mm-hmm. Continue ignoring one sin and focusing on another if you must, Christina.

          • Pico

            You are not God, so you don’t tell anyone they are amiss and lost. If I were in your shoes and had those thoughts about someone, I would repent right away and get off the computer. But that’s just me, trying to do God’s work. Bless you sister in sin.

          • Pico

            No, homosexuals just want to be treated equally under the law that has nothing to do with religion.

          • crimsonfire2

            There should be only one. Paul says to rightly divide the truth. Jesus said that blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled. If you want to know the word of God, you have to want it. You have to let go of your own will and follow his. This means you have to consecrate yourself through prayer and fasting so that you can hear from him and direct your path. He will tell what his word is saying. It is good to go to church and hear the word but you have to know it for yourself. God is not going to hold any responsible for not telling you the word when you should study it yourself to know what is right and what is wrong.

        • L Fe

          amen Lorene. People always get side-tracked with the various denominations etc but I always say go to a church that preaches and teaches the bible. Only a personal relationship with Christ Jesus transforms all sinners to become children of God.

          • crimsonfire2

            Me too L Fe!

        • crimsonfire2

          You hit the nail on the head. Also I am so tire of people calling Christians religious and saying religion. There is not such thing as religion. Like you said Fairchild, you have to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. That is what makes you a Christian-not religion as they say.

        • Vigilant Seraph

 religion are man made institutions. Only the Word (which is another name for Jesus and well as the Holy Scripture) can save us. No church has that authority. We are encouraged to fellowship with others to share teaching, worship, to aid the poor and to to spread the Gospel but God leaves it to us to figure out when and where to gather in His name, and who to trust to lead us. Ideally we’d always have leaders who perfectly follow God’s Word, but throughout the years there have been many who have lost their way and corrupted the church.

          We stand alone before God, we must all do our own moral inventory and work out our salvation with fear because eternity is a long time to regret the mistake of believing an easy way to salvation. The church was intended to help us stay unified so we can support each other, but being sinners, we as believers have chosen poorly when it comes to how to best help each other. Some denominations have arisen from disagreements and false teachings, some simply from preferences that are neither right or wrong. Its good to have some churches that do international missions well, its good to have some that reach out to inner cities, its good to have some that carry on studies of eschatology, epistemology and orthodoxy. Its good that some reclaim cultural ground that can be lost easily when we focus too inwardly.

          As long as churches teach the essential doctrines of salvation through sanctification by grace, which is a gift of God through Jesus, who is the Son of God made man, crucified and ressurrected and that God has provided to His people his Word (inerrent) and His Spirit to guide us in our earthly lives, there is room to disagree on the minor issues and how best to honor God and pursue the difficult task of remaining God’s pure bride while we wait for His return.

      • amostpolitedebate

        Spoiler: The answer is “The one that best fits my preconceived notions of the world”

        • Sherry Embry

          No, the Bible says we all drink from the same spiritual rock which is Christ. That means we partake of the same doctrine from the Bible. There are no special or private (subjective) interpretations. That’s how cults are created. We should test all teaching by the Word of God alone. The Bible talks about the blind leaders leading the blind and they both end up falling into the ditch.

          • amostpolitedebate

            Yet somehow there are thousands of bible-based religions. Odd…

          • lynn

            Yet there is only one valid faith that will make you a child of God. That is the heart felt belief that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God, and He came into this world to live a sinless life, and gave His life as a ransom for all those who would believe on Him. The most important thing is that you believe that He gave His life for you . Can you believe that?

          • Sherry Embry

            The most important thing is to repent and believe in Christ and hold fast to biblical teaching. Jesus said I have many sheep and many pastures. The true church is the born again church that continues steadfast in the faith not swaying from the Word.

      • Diana Baskin

        The one who lives according to the Bible which would mean they have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

      • Christina H

        It’s the Word of God that stands not a building, or who you esteem on this earth. If every church building burnt to the ground, true men of God would preach in the open.

      • Evermyrtle

        Like people there is no church that is teaching the truth without a single flaw. The church cannot save you, it can only lead you to CHRIST and you alone can accept HIM for yourself , each minister is responsible for what he preaches . Is it the truth straight from GOD’S WORD,. If he is teaching lies, get out of it. Study and pray for understanding, know your Bible so that you will know if the minister is or is not, true to GOD’S WORD.

        If I do not understand where the minister is coming from, if I have doubts, I go home and look it up in the Bible

      • Thisoldspouse

        There are not “thousands” of denominations of Christianity.

        If you insist on pushing that fiction, name them.

    • Sherry Embry

      Looks like he has swallowed the “subjective truth” argument hook line and sinker. Another preacher who has turned traitor to the Word of God. The Bible warns and commands believers to hold fast to sound doctrine. Any time our views run contrary to the Bible we should submit to the authority of God’s word.

      • TheGhostofBelleStarr

        He always has been a false teacher—name and claim it variety—God wants you to have a Mercedes—and send him $100 and God will increase your ” faith seed”…

        • WorldGoneCrazy

          Yes, apparently he and Osteen are of the false prosperity “gospel” crowd.

          • Vikki Turkin

            Yup- I just don’t even know who’s real and who’s fake. Makes me not even want to attend church… Read my Bible for myself and let the Holy Ghost teach me

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            It is difficult because even in a strong Biblical church, we have a lot of wolves sitting in the pews with us. But, if you don’t attend, please commune with other believers wherever you can, houses, restaurants, wherever. We need your wisdom for our encouragement and building up! God bless!

        • lifeofjoy

          No. And what is reported here isn’t the truth about what he said. I expect Christian publications to at least be honest in their reporting.
          And you, TheGhostofBelleStar, are guilty of bearing false witness against a brother in Christ.

          • loj- I just finished listening to the whole interview, and I can tell you didn’t because he makes the referenced statements towards the end of the interview. Very disappointing. I can only assume he is liberalizing his views based on some bad confidants opinions on how to sell more books. Texas is going to-hell-in-a-hen-basket, T.D. has just joined the smiling, prosperity prophet of Lakewood. He actually said, “…once you understand that we are not a Christian nation…”. He also says, “…I understand black-speak and I talk both languages so had to tell the white ministers what the black community is feeling…” WOW. I suspected something was up years ago when I found out the Potters House had a Rolls Royce in the garage.

          • Vikki Turkin

            Yeah we just don’t really know until this stuff comes out… I am disappointed

        • Vikki Turkin

          I am very displeased with Jakes…. WOw

      • Evermyrtle

        I really am surprised and disappointed, I really thought Jakes was “A MAN OF GOD” that he was ‘man enough’ to stand on GOD’S WORD. When you choose to follow man to get your kicks, you have failed GOD. There is plenty enough in GOD’S WORD to lead us into the fact that homosexuality is an abomination and ‘NO MAN OF GOD’ will teach that. This act will send us straight to hell.

        This is not what we find in CHRISTIAN CHURCHES, this is what we find in Satanic churches who only call themselves Christian, exposing our followers to hell, along with yourself, unless you turn around and go HIS WAY.

        Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

        Jude 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

        As a teacher or preacher who teaches this evil is leading their people to the wrong place and is lying about GOD’S intention for HIS people.

        Brother, it is not too late to turn to GOD and HIS Word and get the truth out to people and redeem your soul from where it is headed. Money and evil pleasures will only condemn you, and teaching others these lies make you responsible for their sins, too.

        I will pray that HE will open the eyes of those who are teaching such lies and hope that others will pray for you, too, instead of condemning you to hell, which is not our place. We will give have hope that you will change to GOD’S PLAN!

        • Prophetess Christina Asher

          I think you need to re read the article no where in there does he say he is FOR gay marriage

          • Judah Toomer

            He didn’t say he is FOR gay marriage and he didn’t stand up for the truth either. He played it like Joel Osteen in order not to offend. It is a complex subject because it’s about loving the sinner and hate the sin but Matt 10:33 says “But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father who is in Heaven.” Dancing around the subject is not standing up for the Lord.

          • Daisy Rivera

            Amen Judah Toomer very well said… Their trying to smooth Gods word to make every one Happy…Bur GOD called us to TRUTH and to STAND ON THE TRUTH and not LET YOURSELF be MOVED…

          • Macklova

            These people are really sick in the head. Trying to rewrite everything, they even produced a bible called ‘Queen James’ version just to smooth out abomination !

          • Is that for real? I like keeping up with the various new-age versions to see just how far Satan’s perverted influences creep into the church, and how easily people are duped into believing a lie. Most trace right back to the “Garden” lies…”Surely God hath not said…” or “God wouldn’t keep anything good from you…” or “Surely you won’t die…”.

          • James

            You accept the King James version that man wrote, but the Queen James version that man wrote is not okay. Interesting.

          • Macklova

            I never said I accept anything. I just pointed out how people are living everyday lives with reprobate Minds, thinking they can change any and everything to fit their agenda. Just Sick !

          • Stephen Geiger

            In reality there is no such thing as a Queen James version. It is simply another politically correct attempt to pander to those who think God is a woman. By the way man did not write the King James version. It is based on thousands of biblical texts. God wrote the bible. It is His word. Granted there are translations out there such as the New International Version which distorts the original text and in many places eliminates the deity of Jesus. This is why it is important which version you use to study.

          • When the 40 or so bible scholars that reviewed the canon and brought forth the 1611 KJV are proven wrong I will switch. God wrote one book-the Bible-and he has protected its infallibility down through the ages.

          • PunchDrunkLove

            The Holy Spirit moved on holy men….and they wrote. God used men, by way of the Spirit to write his words. It has stood, stand and will stand the test of time. It will be here when you and I have gone on.

          • James

            Who you think wrote the King James Bible? If God is the supreme being why would you name it after the King. I know why. The king is the one who paid for the Bible to be written. But you keep believing in fakeness. And to suggest as a Black person that the Church should oppress others is sicker.

          • Howard Pitt

            James, your ignorance is exposed. You would serve your cause better if you kept your mouth shut. If you want to help you cause, do this: (1.) Go find out (research) why it is called the King James Version. Pay attention to the word “version”. Then come back and tell the rest of us what you find.

          • PunchDrunkLove

            Poor little tink tink

          • James

            How many poor have you helped? The word says do all things without murmerings and complainings. It say shun vain babblings.

          • zoot

            I respectfully disagree on your use of that scripture in Matthew. That scripture is about denying Jesus as the Son of God. From what I read, that scripture has absolutely nothing to do with anything other than that. You can sin and believe in Christ. Sinning is not denying the existence of God.

          • Give a Hoot Zoot, Ezekiel 3:18-21 sets a standard for the responsibility God gives us when we gain His wisdom. Openly confessing Christ means openly confessing His Word as well. Jakes did a Mississippi(or Texas) two-step around this responsibility. Only God truly knows the heart, but if you call yourself a minister of God, have a congregation and have letters after or before your name saying you are credentialed as such then you can’t take that hat off and interchange it with author or laity. It is a calling and you are on duty 24/7 as God’s hands and feet. At the very least he is going to have some explaining to do on judgement day as to why he is not BOLDLY proclaiming the Word. If intentions be known, and he is not speaking the truth in love as commanded so that he can sell more books, I think I’m in agreement with Judah. Not speaking is denying the redemptive power of the Word and by extension the Lord Jesus.

          • James

            Did you just judge somebody? Did you just speak against the profit/Prophet? Boldly proclaiming the word is that Christ died for our sins. But you uneducated folks want to crucify Christ on the cross. You should have been stoned to death for what you wrote. What makes you right?

          • I may be wrong, and if that’s the case so is God’s Word- found in the only book God wrote-the Bible. Take your concerns to God.

          • Resona Jackmon

            IN total agreement

          • Whiteeagle

            Sinning And Believing Christ Is NOT Possible …. The Very Definition Of Sin IS ‘Unbelief’ …. In Other Words, Believing In Christ Is Antithetical To NOT Believing In Christ …. WHAT Most People Call Sin Is Usually JUST The ‘Products’ Of Unbelief ….. Being A Sinner IS INDEED Denying The Existence Of GOD … OR At Least Denying The Authority Of GOD ….

          • James

            Interesting. I’m disturbed though by Products of unbelief. And the capitalization of your words. But look. You two disagree. Sooooo, who’s right? Are you right, because you think you are? What happened to the lost books of the Bible? Were they wrong?

          • Howard Pitt

            What lost books James? What are you talking about? Your arguments are similar to the position taken by homosexuals on human “sexuality”. They (you) make a series of highfalutin arguments with no basis in science or facts and call it truth. Then you repeat the argument so often that you and other simple minded individuals like T D Jakes begin to believe it.

          • Khalil West

            This theology is strange! Have you read 1 Corinthians and 1 John? Please see how Paul describes the Corinthians in the first chapter and then rebukes them for their sinful behaviour afterwards. A believer can fall into sin – that’s why a verse like 1John 1:9 was written to believers.

          • Resona Jackmon


          • Man of the Hour

            Sinning willfully denies Him. If you really believe *in your heart* (Romans 10:9) that Christ is the Son of God, and that He was ressurected from the dead, you will be convicted by that, and repentant, and you would give away the things you don’t need and follow Him with all your heart and soul, because that realization is a profound wonder, and the gratitude and love you would have for Him would overtake you. In that, you would turn from sin, because sin is bad, and you would choose not to willingly practice it. If you do willingly practice sin, you’re basically saying, “thanks, but no thanks Jesus”. “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful expectation of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
            ” (Hebrews 10:26-27) Many focus on how we’re saved, but not the why. Ephesians 2:8-10 – “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For
            we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which
            God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. ” We are saved by grace through faith, but we are saved to do good works, as Christ did.

          • MsDtown

            Yes, YOU but not everybody else. If others don’t believe what you believe, they ain’t got to do a dang thing. Mohammed said stuff too. You don’t believe it, so you don’t follow those principles. All these self-righteous, judgmental Xians are going to “h*ll”.

          • PunchDrunkLove

            You can sin and SAY you believe in Christ, however you are not recognized by God as a believer. Romans 6:1 asks should we continue in sin that grace may abound? He answers with God forbid! It says to whom he yield your members to obey, to whom that is your master. To God, or satan. It is not okay to sin. That was the purpose of Christ coming. To show, by the life he lived, through accepting the Holy Spirit, we can to live without blatantly practicing sin.

            Soooo many folks need knowledge.

          • Bt

            Well said!

          • Evelyn Garcia

            Very well said

          • James Norris

            In other article he did say gays should have equal rights to marriage. It is a political stance for him keeping blacks under the rule of Democrats by making excuses for their ungodliness..

          • St. James Harrell

            Blacks are the only homosexuals? Really? Blacks are the only gay folk who wish to be married? Really? Your comment is plain out ridiculous.

          • James

            What are you talking about? Are you suggesting that all Blacks are democrats? Are you suggesting that all Blacks are gay? White folks.

          • Tamara Gilyard

            I understand your view point.

          • Amen Brother, another prosperity preacher conforming his views to the worldview to sell more books. He may have listened to Joel Olsteen(Jr not the dad)once to often and heard his books were flying off the shelves. Too bad, so sad.

          • unik

            He was absolutely wrong. He did not say what the Bible stand is on the issue as a leader and a man who knew what the scriptures say.

          • MsDtown

            He just didn’t stand up for YOUR truth.

          • Robert Bishop

            You’re correct.

          • PunchDrunkLove

            Exactly. There was a coworker years ago that hated the bible and anyone affiliated. She said she didn’t like how judgemental it and Christians come off. She said she don’t like the violence in the bible (who can instruct God), but when she told me she was going to hear Joel Olsteen, it confirmed what I’d already knew. He plays keeping it safe and offending no one game.

          • Shortyndallas

            People are going to read/hear what they want to hear.. This article is reflection of poor journalism or so-called journalism

          • Mel

            Saying that Christianity and homosexuality and the church can co exist is affirming the lifestyle. Saying that they must find churches that affirm their lifestyle means that he himself is affirming the lifestyle..what article did you read. You may have to get beyond your “like” of TD Jakes to see what he actually says and its your duty to reject what he is saying if you are for biblical purity if not then go ahead and get carried away with every wind of doctrine like most of these “Christians” seem to be.

          • amostpolitedebate

            “That man just said that we shouldn’t go out of our way to be monsters to gay people! GET HIM!”

          • Mel

            Way to simplify it

          • Follow @offensivedialog

            And just how much for “biblical purity” are you? Do you support 2nd marriages? Jesus didn’t, divorce is evil. Do you support shaving and hair trimming? Ungodly. Do you eat swine? Not biblical purity. Sex outside of marriage? Impure. Can you count back ten generations, all 2000 ancestors were married when giving birth, even the slaves? If not, you’re damned, no matter the life you lead.

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            Are you saying that if a person Repents and turns to Yeshu for forgiveness?That they will not be forgiven nor can they be saved through the shed Blood of Yeshua? Are you saying that Yeshua is not the way to eternal life? Are you saying there is no hope for sinners even through Yeshua? God gave all sinners away out of sin through Repentance. He sent His Son Yeshua *Christ* to save the lost. There is only one *sin* that can not be forgiven. That can only happen when the sinner dies.

          • Follow @offensivedialog

            Never said that, with the exception that ten generations following bastard births — all are damned. I’m saying you religious types cherry pick sins. You justify the ones you commit and then you vilify the ones you don’t. Most humans identify as heterosexual even as the world dries up and resources become scarce at 7,000,000,000+ people.

            You commit heinous crimes against gays. The black ones protest along with the same rednecks that want to see them in back of the bus or join police forces to kill them. Christians, from what I see the most, make satan look like a hero.

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            Through repentance there is forgiveness to all the sins you list. Only one sin can not be forgiven . It is only at death. The true Hero is Yeshua the Son of God. Through the Son of Gos Satan is the loser not some kind of hero. You seem to be an* Anti-Christian, Anti-God person.* When you face the Lord you will then understand. If it is God’s Will for you to be Delivered and to be Saved May His Will be done in the Name of His Son Yeshus.
            Shalom <

          • Follow @offensivedialog

            Nope. I just don’t hate people. Never was hateful and won’t join a hate oriented organization.

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            A lot of Christians love the sinners enough to *try* to save them Through Yeshua. You will one day understand .
            Shalom <

          • Follow @offensivedialog

            אם אני כל כך בורה שלא מבין ל, בבקשה ללמד אותי. שלום לכם מדי.

          • False humility is a disguise of the elitists.

          • Mel

            Standing firm on our convictions and speaking what we believe to be the truth can hardly be considered heinous. Love and truth are not mutually exclusive, so contrary to popular belief one is not a hateful homophobe if they disagree with the lifestyle.

          • DNelson

            “Standing firm on our convictions and speaks what we believe to be the truth can hardly be considered heinous.”

            Standing firm on your convictions and speaking what you believe to be truth is not, in and of itself, heinous. When you do that in a way which supports harming others merely because they do not adhere to your beliefs as to what is right and wrong, that is heinous.

          • Mel

            And if anyone does so claiming to be a Christian I will be the first to tell them that they are in violation of the tenets of our faith. I am aware that this is the case and unfortunately the few spoil the bunch. There are churches all across America whose doors are open to homosexuals. There are Christians who will not hesitate to profess love for them also, but many pay attention to the negative incidents that they witness in the media and paint all of us with a broad brush.

          • DNelson

            So then you do not support laws which restrict two citizens of the same gender from entering into civil marriage, correct?

          • Mel

            Submit to governmental authority. Its in the Bible. So I recognize their right to enter into civil marriage. If asked to support it in some way by a vote no I would not vote in favor of it, but that’s what democracy is all about.

          • DNelson

            “If asked to support it in some way by a vote no I would not vote in favor of it”

            So you do support harming others because they do not adhere to your religious beliefs. Therefore, based upon what you said, you should locate a mirror and tell the person in it that he is in violation of the tenets of the Christian faith.

            What a hypocrite.

          • Mel

            Yes an old trick…resort to name calling. Its typical on your side to point the finger at Christians and say they are hateful when most of the vitriol comes from your side when people believe differently than you do..but i still choose to keep it civil. I fail to see how that harms anyone. but only a weak mind will consider dissent to be bias, hateful, or even hypocritical. And that is the only line that you picked up on? I guess you missed the part where I said I recognize whatever the law says. Or maybe I should have qualified that and said I respect the law and them if that is the case. But my vote would be based on my belief of which I am entitled just as your are, and the clear lack of evidence that anyone is born that way. If you want to have a civil discussion about this any further then lets do so, but if you are going to take the juvenile route and resort to name calling then we can end this conversation right here.

          • DNelson

            What “name calling” are you referring to? The simple fact is that you said that you would tell Christians who support harming others “that they are in violation of the tenets of our faith.”, and then you went on to say that you support laws that harm others. That is hypocritical.

            “Its typical on your side”

            What side is that?

            ” say they are hateful”

            I never said you were hateful. That is a lie. Is lying another aspect of your Christian faith?

            “most of the vitriol comes from your side”

            What side is that?

            “but only a weak mind will consider dissent to be bias, hateful, or even hypocritical.”

            I don’t consider dissent to be bias, hateful, or even hypocritical. I consider bias to be bias. Hateful speech to be hateful. Hypocritical statements to be hypocrisy. Oh, by the way, your passive/aggressive “only a weak mind” was pretty juvenile.

            “But my vote would be based on my belief of which I am entitled just as your are”

            What belief? That the civil rights of others should be limited by your religious beliefs? That it is reasonable to harm citizens because they wish to express their freedom and liberty in a way which is contrary to your religious beliefs? I thought you said that was a violation of the tenants of the Christian faith? Exactly what belief is it that you consider when installing laws in our nation, under our constitution, that you feel justify harming certain citizens?

            “and the clear lack of evidence that anyone is born that way.”

            How is that relevant to equal treatment under the law? Equal treatment under the law is not awarded based upon a trait being born. It is awarded based solely upon citizenship. If the people of Utah voted to only allow Mormons to enter into civil marriage, should people of other religions just accept that, since religious belief is not something that people are born with?

            “If you want to have a civil discussion about this any further then lets do so”

            My discussion has been very civil. Just because i called you out on your hypocritical statement does not make the conversation uncivil. It merely makes it accurate.

            If you want a conversation where you are able to say whatever you care to and expect to not be held accountable for what you say, which is certainly juvenile, then we can certainly end this conversation right here. Your doing so, however, without answering my questions, will speak volumes about your character.

          • Mel

            But here is where you are 100% wrong. You have no basis for calling me a hypocrite. Because quite the contrary if I affirm Christianity but do not stand for my conviction then that is what makes me a hypocrite. Not because I would vote in a way that you disagree with. And not because you feel that denying a “status” of marriage is harmful.

            Actually its quite the opposite. You are telling me to act in such a way that violates my beliefs…that is what is hypocritical. Maybe you lack an understanding of what our tenets are, but adhering to what we believe to be true is one of them. So its is not a matter of “harming” anyone because of “religious” beliefs, its sticking to the totality of my beliefs..its called conviction my friend. If in your perception you feel that voting for a “law” an still d respecting them are mutually exclusive then that is your issue. If you can reduce this to “jargon” such as “expressing freedom, etc” then thats your issue. The tenets of my faith are love God and love your neighbor but its also stand firm in your faith and “love rejoices in truth”…what do I believe to be true? Well take a guess. So if I act in a way that affirms that truth how is that hypocritical?

            “Reasonable harm to citizens because they wish to express their freedom and liberty”

            So its “reasonable” harm? Is it harmful? A little harmful? Very harmful? Again that is your own perception. Is “reasonable” harm enough to call me a hypocrite when I say that would vote against it? Is it harmful because it would denythem the validation of holding a marriage certificate? Or ok aside from being able to “express their freedo” whatever that means is the lack a marriage certificate denying them of any tangible benefits ri disallowing them any

            “My discussion has been very civil. Just because i called you out on your
            hypocritical statement does not make the conversation uncivil. It
            merely makes it accurate.”

            Actually its name calling when there was nothing hypocritical in what I said. Again, I can vote against altering the traditional definition of marriage without harming anyone. There was no harm perpetuated before it became (or becomes) law. But again you may stick to your perception if you must.

            ” Your doing so, however, without answering my questions, will speak volumes about your character.”

            For someone that accuses me of sharing my own insights you sure seem to have your own.I must of read it somewhere that ending a conversation is indicative of one’s character. Or I guess you wrote the book on it.

          • DNelson

            “You have no basis for calling me a hypocrite.”

            You said that you would tell Christians who support harming others “that they are in violation of the tenets of our faith.”, and then you went on to say that you support laws that harm others.

            Please explain to me how that is not hypocritical.

            “And not because you feel that denying a “status” of marriage is harmful.”

            It’s not a question of my feeling that harm is done. Harm is actually done. Financial and legal. Do you deny that two citizens of the same gender who desire to enter into civil marriage are not harmed by being denied the right to do so?

            “You are telling me to act in such a way that violates my beliefs…that is what is hypocritical.”

            I have never told you how you should act. That is simply a lie. I would suggest that you spend a few moments and educate yourself as to the meaning of the word “hypocritical”. Your understanding appears inaccurate.

            “So its is not a matter of “harming” anyone because of “religious” beliefs, its sticking to the totality of my beliefs”

            Then what is your reason for desiring to have laws in place regarding civil marriage that harm citizens?

            “The tenets of my faith are love God and love your neighbor but its also stand firm in your faith”

            How does restricting the civil rights of others assist in your fulfilling those tenets?

            “So if I act in a way that affirms that truth how is that hypocritical?”

            it’s not. It turns hypocritical when you say you would tell others who support harm that they are not following the tenets of the Christian faith, but then you support harming others and feel that is simply a product of your faith.

            “Reasonable harm to citizens because they wish to express their freedom and liberty”

            That wasn’t what I said. What I said was: That it is reasonable to harm citizens because they wish to express their freedom and liberty in a way which is contrary to your religious beliefs?

            “is the lack a marriage certificate denying them of any tangible benefits ri disallowing them any”

            Yes. Over 1,000 rights, benefits, and protections that are ONLY available through being legally married.

            “I can vote against altering the traditional definition of marriage without harming anyone.”

            No, you can’t. Denying couples the right to enter into civil marriage harms them. Period. And, by the way, traditional marriage was not being altered in any way. It continues today just as it has been. There never was a vote on altering traditional marriage. There were only votes on excluding – and harming through that exclusion – two citizens of the same gender from receiving a state issued marriage certificate. Something which has NOTHING to do with religion. Yet something which you believe should be based upon your religious beliefs, even if that results in harm to some citizens. I take it you don’t have too much respect for our Constitution and the protections it provides…excluding I would assume the ones regarding religion.

            “There was no harm perpetuated before it became (or becomes) law.”

            Yes, there was. Had there not been, there would have been no basis for legal action. Legal action requires that those who bring the action are able to prove harm based on the law being challenged.

            “Actually its name calling when there was nothing hypocritical in what I said.”

            If you can explain to me how it is not hypocritical to say that you would tell people who want to harm others that they are not following the tenets of the Christian faith but then say that you would vote to harm people as a function of your Christian faith, then I will be happy to withdraw my statement regarding your being a hypocrite on this issue. Good luck with that.

            “For someone that accuses me of sharing my own insights”

            What? How could I accuse you of sharing your own insights?

            I’ll ask again:

            What belief? That the civil rights of others should be limited by your religious beliefs? That it is reasonable to harm citizens because they wish to express their freedom and liberty in a way which is contrary to your religious beliefs? I thought you said that was a violation of the tenants of the Christian faith? Exactly what belief is it that you consider when installing laws in our nation, under our constitution, that you feel justify harming certain citizens?

            “and the clear lack of evidence that anyone is born that way.”

            How is that relevant to equal treatment under the law? Equal treatment under the law is not awarded based upon a trait being born. It is awarded based solely upon citizenship. If the people of Utah voted to only allow Mormons to enter into civil marriage, should people of other religions just accept that, since religious belief is not something that people are born with?

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Don’t waste your time with him, Mel. He is an ideologue: if Jesus appeared right in front of him, he would turn away because he would have to give up too much to follow Him.

          • Mel

            I think you are right…this is getting rather laborious. He resorts to the same old trick of well God did not write it men did and what makes you right and everyone wrong, and well it depends on how you interpret the Bible and well look at how many denominations there are..and then its the usual nonsense that speaking the truth and disagreeing with one’s lifestyle are somehow mutually exclusive…so if I disagree I must somehow hate or want to take away people’s freedoms….its the same old stuff. WorldGoneCrazy, you and I will one day be the minority..but we must stand for truth at all costs.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            There is a long history with him, Mel. No amount of reason, logic, evidence, Scriptural or otherwise, will convince him. His desire for sin and autonomy from God outweighs anything we can provide him.

            When I read the Bible, Mel, I see my sins splashed throughout its pages, so I KNOW I am no better than anyone else, far worse than most. But, when I see my sins, I don’t perform gymnastics trying to call them virtues. To me, that is a major difference between being in darkness and being in the Light. I praise God that He turned on the Light for me a dozen years ago after 42 years of un-repentance. And, I praise God for your wise postings on this story too.

          • DNelson

            “No amount of reason, logic, evidence”

            Since you have provided so little of any of those I am unclear how you can make that statement.

            “autonomy from God”

            God and I have a great relationship, thank you. Oh, by the way, he wanted to let you know that you are totally off base in your views.

          • DNelson

            “He resorts to the same old trick of well God did not write it men did and what makes you right and everyone wrong”

            I’m curious, how is that a “trick”? Men did write the bible. What is it that makes you right in your interpretation and others, who believe differently about the Bible, wrong? How is that a “trick” question?

            “and then its the usual nonsense that speaking the truth and disagreeing with one’s lifestyle are somehow mutually exclusive…so if I disagree I must somehow hate or want to take away people’s freedoms”

            Well except that I never used the word “hate”, although I’m not surprised that you did as you have been less than honest is citing what I have said. How is voting to restrict the ability of citizens to access a right offered by the state NOT taking away their freedom?

            “but we must stand for truth at all costs.”

            Again with the hubris. “What I believe is the truth because that is what I have chosen to believe”. I have a strong belief that you are going to be very surprised at some point in time.

          • James

            That judgement looks good on you. Where did you buy it?

          • Kenneth Hall

            you are wrong for GODS WORD clearly teaches when it is against GODS WORD WE Should obey GOD instead of man.

          • Follow @offensivedialog

            Harming others and denying them basic human rights. The saddest part of this is that the biggest haters of gay people are those who are under an apparent race war. Blacks won’t fight a white man with a gun but they’ll certainly fight any man with lipgloss on. Bitches and cowards, bitches and cowards.

          • Follow @offensivedialog

            We disagree. Those who persecute gays but permit and condone other lifestyles are cherry-Pickers and hypocrites. I’m positive you know bastards who’ve given birth to bastards, well they are damned. 72% of children born to black women are both damned and bastards, but I’m certain that lifestyle doesn’t phase you because of prejudice. The few marriages black people do find will statistically end in divorce, Jesus (by being Christ, the ultimate specialist in Christian knowledge) spoke very bitterly against divorce. He said nothing of homosexuality, nothing. But I’m sure you approve of second marriages as legit and not adulterous as Jesus would. The children coming from those second marriages, though the bible considers them damned and bastards, you condone their lifestyles as bastards and bastard-makers.

            It’d be great if Christianity did make a comeback. From what I’ve read, it’s been gone for many centuries. All we have left are political agendas wrapped in “the word.”

          • James

            Except that what you believe to be the truth in this case is mistaken. And to stand firm in ignorance about other people’s lives is not love. BTW, being gay is not a “lifestyle”, but an innate characteristic of people who are gay, just as being left-handed, or having red hair, or having dark skin.

          • Horatio Socks

            So, my wife and I get into a disagreement/argument. Apparently, we hate each other????

          • Follow @offensivedialog

            If you just had an argument with your wife, this isn’t the place to talk about it.

          • Mel

            I do support biblical purity but one must do so with the understanding of scripture. You mention hair trimming and swine, but if you studied and understood then you would know that those were ceremonial laws imposed upon ancient isreal at that time. To suggest that those are applicable to the NT church today would be to take them out of their historical context. Some things must remain in the time in which it was commanded. There were also civil laws which were legal laws instituted in Isreal as well. So if one’s study is in depth enough they will refrain from making such statements as you hear often I culture today: “well don’t you wear two fabrics woven together?”

            Then there are universal moral laws which are applicable to all generations but like i said one must study this in order to be informed instead of throwing out ignorant statements. As far as sex outside marriage, are we doomed? Or can we be forgiven? You can’t make a statement like that without understanding the Mercy of God and forgiveness. Yes it’s wrong according to scripture but repentance is about asking for forgiveness and the Bible is clear that God forgives and forgets. However repentance is also about ones intent to change their behavior meaning they have decided that they are no longer going to continue to do. BUT even after repentance one may stumble and make mistakes along the way but the Bible is clear that God is able and willing to forgive us every time. So no, anyone that repents of sin is not doomed.

            So in your comment (or your attempt at a gotcha) you are clearly missing some important information about scripture.

          • DNelson

            “I do support biblical purity but one must do so with the understanding of scripture.” “To suggest that those are applicable to the NT church today would be to take them out of their historical context.”

            So the Bible is pure once you have finished interpreting it and putting it into historical context. So tell me, Mel, what special insight do you have that allows you to determine the correct interpretation and correct historical context?

            Either it’s “pure” or it is open to interpretation and historical context. You can’t have it both ways. To suggest that parts are not applicable because of “understanding” and “historical context” but other parts are absolutely pure and not subject to interpretation or historical context, is hypocritical. A hallmark of many Christians.

          • Mel

            Dnelson, it has nothing to do with some great insight. i did not wake up one day and say mmm lets me interpret this any way I want. Its takes study and effort. CONTEXT is a universal principal not just appropriate to reading the bible. Its pretty much reading comprehension 101. So I actually do not understand where you get the idea that employing this basic principle of context means that you make it “open” to interpretation and thus compromises its purity (that must be your great insight). I submit to you that instead The purity IS safeguarded BY properly interpreting it in light of its context to derive at its correct and conclusive meaning. Yes you can have it both ways, and you MUST have it both ways. With the correct interpretation everyone should arrive at the same conclusion. I mean context is appropriate for any form a literature is it not? The Bible was written in other languages how then can you know what it saying unless understanding its grammatical context. Different books were written in different time periods, well how can you know without understanding its historical and cultural context. Some things in the Bible are literal some are symbolic, how then will you know unless you study those things.If you write a note or an email to someone how do you feel if the person goes around saying what you never intended to say? this is fairly basic. You see examples of this every day in media when they cut videos and cause the interviewer to be taken out of context. Well the books of the Bible has authors who had an intended meaning. But Again, one has to approach this without presuppositions, biases, or learned assumptions. But if we were to take it further then I would tell you that it is a tried and tested discipline called Hermeneutics…look it up. Any form of literature must be interpreted. Maybe some forms of literature are open to several interpretation like poetry etc..but a book that is part historical and part doctrinal is not open to multiple interpretations but instead has an intended meaning. It is not subjective. Its requires much time, effort, and understanding of the appropriate tools of interpretation. Ultimately the author is God and he had specific things in mind when he inspired the Bible (that is of course if you believe in God..and it actually does boil down to belief.)

          • Tina Nunn

            Mel, God bless you! I wish I could explain so clearly and truthfully as you do. I pray God bless you in whatever you do to bring truth to the lost and confused, brothers and sisters in Christ and those who need to hear truth! Lord, I pray humility and boldness for this man to be used mightily in you wonderful name! MARANATHA!!!

          • Mel

            Thank you Tina…you know I have come to expect dissent amongst unbelievers..because well they do not believe. But when a man such as TD jakes with this kind of platforms tip toes around the truth then I worry that even believers will get carried away by the foolishness…I pray for a church that respects its leaders but yet has the capacity to see if what theleader says lines up with scripture (Acts 17:11)……..heaven and earth may pass away but His word will continue to stand.

          • Amen, well said Brother. Years ago when I heard about the Rolls and the Canadian Challenger jet in the garage and saw the garish jewelry I knew something wasn’t right at the Potter’s House. Trust God and his Word and don’t lean on man.

          • James

            So, now you’re judging? You funny. Cause you ain’t got nothing you mean noone else can have?

          • The facts are a difficult thing- they just don’t go away. Are you judging me?

          • Horatio Socks

            What is judging?

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Well said, man of God.

          • James

            Now you taking God’s credit. Thinking you saying something. You’re no purist. You’re a liar though.

          • DNelson

            “So I actually do not understand where you get the idea that employing this basic principle of context means that you make it “open” to interpretation and thus compromises its purity ”

            Applying context requires interpretation. I actually do not understand where you get the idea that employing context does NOT involve interpretation.

            “I submit to you that instead The purity IS safeguarded BY properly interpreting”

            Let me guess, your interpretation is “proper” while others are not. What hubris.

            “With the correct interpretation everyone should arrive at the same conclusion.”

            Given the substantial number of sects of Christianity and the fact that they have been unable to come to consensus about the totality of the meaning of scripture, sin, redemption, etc., apparently they are unaware of your “correct interpretation”. You should share it with all other Christians so they can finally. after all this time, learn the “correct interpretation” and arrive at the “same conclusion”.

            “Ultimately the author is God”

            No, the authors are many. They were men. And men choose which of the gospels, from many that were available, to include in the Bible. From the beginning it has been anything but pure.

            “that is of course if you believe in God”

            To suggest that one cannot believe in God unless one accepts the Bible as God’s word is without merit. Again, your hubris is astounding.

          • Mel

            Given the substantial number of sects of Christianity and the fact that they have been unable to come to consensus about the totality of the meaning of scripture, sin, redemption, etc., apparently they are unaware of your “correct interpretation”. You should share it with all other Christians so they can finally. after all this time, learn the “correct interpretation” and arrive at the “same conclusion”.

            Funny isn’t it. Nothing much has changed. And you will use man’s deviation from scriptures call to unity to prove your point? Denominations are the result of mans own pride and selfishness. If I were you I would not point to that as an endorsement to support your view. I can go deeper with this but you can’t even understand the basics!

            “No, the authors are many. They were men. And men choose which of the gospels, from many that were available, to include in the Bible. From the beginning it has been anything but pure.”

            Point proven….it boils down to belief…the Bible itself says that scripture is God breathed (1 Tim 3:16)… so yes the AUTHOR is God if you believe it. And therefore one MUST accept the Bible as Gods word because the Bible itself says as much…I think the Hubris is coming from a different direction. It would be better if you simply said you have your belief and I have mines. There really is no need to keep going in circles like this.

          • DNelson

            “Denominations are the result of mans own pride and selfishness.”

            With the exception of your denomination, I take it, no? Doesn’t every denomination believe they hold the correct interpretation? Doesn’t every denomination claim that the others are the ones that have resulted from man’s own pride and selfishness?

            “If I were you I would not point to that as an endorsement to support your view.”

            The fact that mans own pride and selfishness has corrupted the teachings of Christ completely supports my view.

            “I can go deeper with this but you can’t even understand the basics!”

            What basics do you believe I do not understand?

            “the Bible itself says that scripture is God breathed”

            No, the people who wrote the Bible said that what they wrote was “God breathed”. They basically said: “Of course this is true. God told me to write it.” Which, of course, anyone could claim. I wonder why the other gospels, that the authors also said were inspired by God, the Council of Nicaea chose NOT to include? Could it be because they didn’t support the narrative that the men of the Council wanted to put forth. Oh, no, wait, their decisions were also guided by God. We know that, because they said so.

            “it boils down to belief”

            Agreed. Which is why it should be stated as a matter of faith, and not a matter of fact.

            “I think the Hubris is coming from a different direction.”

            I’m not the least bit surprised that you would view it that way.

            “It would be better if you simply said you have your belief and I have mines.”

            Advice you may wish to consider taking, since you are the one who is suggesting that you hold the key to proper and correct interpretation.

          • Mel

            “No, the people who wrote the Bible said that what they wrote was “God
            breathed”. They basically said: “Of course this is true. God told me to
            write it.” Which, of course, anyone could claim. I wonder why the other
            gospels, that the authors also said were inspired by God, the Council of
            Nicaea chose NOT to include? Could it be because they didn’t support
            the narrative that the men of the Council wanted to put forth. Oh, no,
            wait, their decisions were also guided by God. We know that, because
            they said so.”

            Says it all…its belief. We finally agree. But i have been using that word from the have made it more a matter of fact than I have. And no one cant believe in God without believing in that Bible..unless they of course deny what is written in the Bible. “Its cause men said so”..well yea wasy answer..

            And you mention the council of Nicaea…..I like how you throw these things out and go far enough in order to somehow try to prove to me that you speak from a position of authority on these matters…but yet you don’t go far enough (or care to go far enough) to find objective answers. I hardly believe that you are in a position to use Biblical history to dispose of my argument. How can you refer to that which you do not even believe in?

            First of all the Council of Nicea had nothing to do with Canonizing the Bible..The council that formed an undisputed
            decision on the canon took place at Carthage in 397, sixty years after
            Constantine’s death. But I guess the Da Vinci code was convincing enough.

            Emperor Constantine presided over a group
            of church bishops and other leaders with the purpose of defining the
            nature of God for all of Christianity and eliminating confusion,
            controversy, and contention within the church.

            Get your facts straight..and then when you do do some further research and find out the process by which the Bible was Canonized. You believe a bunch of men came together and said ok this one, and not that one, this one and not that one?

            Your position is fairly and easy, its only because men say so, God had nothing to do with it so this is what I believe, look at the denominations, what makes you right and everyone else wrong, what about this what about that….doesn’t require much thought now does it?

          • DNelson

            “you have made it more a matter of fact than I have.””And no one cant believe in God without believing in that Bible”

            That pretty much sounds like a statement of fact to me. Would you disagree? There are many more people on the planet who disagree with that view than agree with it. However, given that you have stated it as fact, obviously you are correct and they are all wrong, yes?

            “I like how you throw these things out and go far enough in order to somehow try to prove to me that you speak from a position of authority on these matters”

            There was no intent to prove that I speak as an authority. I am not. That, however, does not change the truth of the matter. Based upon the work of the Council, any gospels that did not correlate with their views would not be admissible in the Bible. The work of the Council served as the foundation upon which the determination of which gospels to include, and which to exclude, was made.

            “Emperor Constantine presided over a group
            of church bishops and other leaders with the purpose of defining the
            nature of God for all of Christianity.

            Ahhh….so men determined that.

            “You believe a bunch of men came together and said ok this one, and not that one, this one and not that one?”

            Pretty much. They required uniformity and had a certain message they wanted to get across. As you stated, the goal was to eliminate “confusion, controversy, and contention within the church.” In other words, to establish control and squash any dissent.

            I’ll ask again:

            With the exception of your denomination, I take it, no? Doesn’t every denomination believe they hold the correct interpretation? Doesn’t every denomination claim that the others are the ones that have resulted from man’s own pride and selfishness?

            What basics do you believe I do not understand?

          • Mel

            “The fact that mans own pride and selfishness has corrupted the teachings of Christ completely supports my view.”

            So how about the search the the teachings of Christ for yourself or have you already made up your mind?

          • DNelson

            I am very familiar with the teachings of Christ. You, however, may wish to familiarize yourself with them. Particularly noting that, with a single exception, Christ made no mention of homosexuals.

            Although I don’t agree with the absoluteness of his statement, to quote Ghandi:

            “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

          • Mel

            Again you are attempting to speak with authority on something that you know nothing about and a subject on which you are clearly outclassed..and up to now you have made some reasonable I am a bit surprised that you would even resort to the “Jesus never said anything” angle.

            Jesus said nothing about bestiality and incest either and a host of other things, therefore if we were to rely on that reasoning then we would be in trouble …and he did discuss marriage and the nature of marriage to be between a man and women. Further, the word became flesh, Jesus is the the Bible Genesis to Revelations homosexuality is mentioned. The Bible is clear on Jesus’ being the Son of God…when the Bible mentions homosexuality throughout the Bible you can bet that the words are sanctioned by Jesus And that leads me to John 21:25: Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written…….your “he never mentioned homosexuality”theory has just been debunked..again you are not an authority on this and just reading the teachings of Christ without studying and putting critical thought into them does not constitute being “familiar” with the sayings of Christ. Let’s just agree again, you simply don’t believe..I can respect that.

          • DNelson

            “Again you are attempting to speak with authority”

            I have already stated that I am not an authority on these issues. With that said, one does not need to be an “authority” to know facts.

            “on something that you know nothing about”

            What is your basis for that statement? Are you saying that Jesus DID speak of homosexuals? If so, please cite those quotes from Bible.

            “Jesus said nothing about bestiality and incest either and a host of other things, therefore if we were to rely on that reasoning then we would be in trouble ”

            Why would we be in “trouble”? Surely you can’t be suggesting that the Bible serves as the only basis under which societies are able to determine laws, can you?

            Incest was not uncommon in biblical times. In fact, if you are a believer in the biblical version of creation, it first occurred between the children of Adam and Eve.

            In the U.S., as of 2012, bestiality is illegal in 37 states. In the rest of the states, it is not.

            “when the Bible mentions homosexuality throughout the Bible you can bet that the words are sanctioned by Jesus”

            What is the basis for that bet? Because you believe it to be so? Because the gospel writers said so? Given that the bible was written years after the death of Jesus, by men, how is it that you feel it would be a good “bet” that Jesus sanctioned everything written in the Bible?

            “Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written”

            Really? So the writers of the gospels only choose certain ones to include? Why not all of them? Jesus’ time on earth was relatively short, and his time as a preacher even shorter. He was relatively limited in his ability to travel. His life seems to be pretty well documented in the Bible. What basis do you have for saying “If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written”?

            “your “he never mentioned homosexuality”theory has just been debunked”

            The only way to debunk that is to provide actual quotes from Jesus where he does mention homosexuality. You have not done so. Therefore, what I said has not been debunked, nor can it, because it is true, with the one exception of Jesus saying that homosexuals were born as homosexuals.

          • Mel

            grasping at straws…

            “Really? So the writers of the gospels only choose certain ones to include? Why not all of them? Jesus’ time on earth was relatively short, and his time as a preacher even shorter. He was relatively limited in his ability to travel. His life seems to be pretty well documented in the Bible. What basis do you have for saying “If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written”?

            Why not all of them?? Who knows?? You are really going to base your argument on your conjecture and how you think they should have recorded it?? I mean what difference does it make. My basis is the scripture reference that I gave you..its says not everything is recorded. The fact that his time was short and his travel was limited, and this that or the other is irrelevant unless you are an authority on how to record history as well. Sorry taking that as evidence that Jesus did not mention is kind a weak.

            Of your mention of bestiality:

            Talk about hubris… this is getting laborious and its getting to the point of desperation…lets agree to disagree and move on

          • DNelson

            “grasping at straws…”

            How so?

            “Who knows??”

            There ya go.

            “You are really going to base your argument on your conjecture and how you think they should have recorded it??”

            Oh, you mean like this argument of conjecture: “If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written”? You are really going to base your argument on your conjecture and how you think they just didn’t write down Jesus’ thoughts on homosexuality because there wasn’t room?

            “Of your mention of bestiality:

            Talk about hubris”

            How is it hubris to provide fact regarding the illegality of bestiality?

            ” this is getting laborious and its getting to the point of desperation”

            I’m not surprised you feel that way. You have been unable to explain how your stance is not hypocritical You have been unable to show any quote from Jesus regarding homosexuality. You have been unable to explain why your interpretation of the Bible is the proper and correct one and all others are wrong. You have been unable to explain how restricting the rights of others assists you in your fulfillment of your faith. You have been reduced to arguing that even though there is no quote from Jesus in the Bible regarding homosexuality being a sin, you are certain he talked about it because the Bible says that it doesn’t include everything Jesus said. I agree. That IS desperate. And it no doubt must be getting laborious to continue to disregard questions about your positions in an attempt to gloss over them. Not only laborious, but embarrassing, as well.

          • Mel


          • Mel

            “embarrassing”…i guess that is in the eye of the beholder. I haven’t been glossing in the least. Take care.

          • DNelson

            “I haven’t been glossing in the least.”

            If not glossing over, what would you call your failing to address questions about your statements?

          • Mel

            Actually the onus is on you my friend to prove that Jesus didn’t mention homosexuality considering

            1.There are alot of things he did not mention
            2. What he does not mention is surely stated in he Bible elsewhere
            3. The scriptures itself says not everything is recorded
            4. Your weak argument that well they would have mentioned everything because his time was short.

            You are the one that fails to present evidence that he never mentioned it while he was on earth (that is if you even believe in Jesus..and again it all comes back to that.)

            Just as you are unsatisfied with the basis for my belief I fail to see the basis for the end its belief. And you think that by disapproving my position that you have some how proven that yours is absolute..but you have not done anything to provide evidence for your own side of the co

          • DNelson

            “Actually the onus is on you my friend to prove that Jesus didn’t mention homosexuality”

            Actually, no, there is no way to prove a negative. You are the one who is attempting to justify your willingness to harm people based upon the teachings of Jesus. Therefore, the onus of proof is on you.

            “You are the one that fails to present evidence that he never mentioned it while he was on earth”

            My reference was that the Bible contains no quote from Jesus regarding homosexuality. Obviously, it would impossible to say that he never, in any conversation with any person, did not mention homosexuality. The issue, however, is your attempting to use the teachings of Jesus to justify your willingness to inflict harm on others, yet no such teachings from Jesus exist.

          • James

            Where is the Jesus talk about homosexuals?

          • Mel

            They basically said: “Of course this is true. God told me to write it.”

            Look up at the process of Biblical canonization and get back to me. It wasn’t as trivial as you make it out to be.

          • okongo Janet

            Truth.God bless you.

          • James

            He already said TD Jakes is wrong.

          • otis stansberry

            Brother Mel I just love your biblical responses…Are you a preacher? If not you should be! If you could do some youtube preaching and teaching I swear I will be a viewer…

            Good luck!!!

          • James

            Go read the Bible he references. Oh I forgot you need his interpretation.

          • James

            He enjoys hubris. Online being puffed up. Love doesn’t do any of that. That guy is crazy. And I bet he believes in the Bible that King James had written.

          • James

            Boy, you sure are ignorant. Purity means you add the 7 lost books of the Bible. Purity means you should be stoned to death for disrespecting the prophet. BTW jerk – the New Testament says we are to love God and love each other. All that other stuff is foolishness.The Books of the Bible has authors – wait – did God write it or man? I know you lying.

          • NELLA2125

            Wow you REALLY don’t know anything about Jesus and the Bible !
            Try studying the NEW TESTAMENT for a year then maybe you will BEGIN to understand Jesus ! Jesus DOES support 2nd marriages !

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            I love your picture – and your post.

          • DNelson

            Only in cases of adultery.

          • Horatio Socks

            That might be one of the the only thing you’ve stated here that is true of the bible.

          • DNelson

            What have I stated that wasn’t true?

          • I get your general point, however you are confusing legalism with grace. For the Christian we are living in whats referred to as the Church Age or the Age of Grace, that being since Jesus was crucified, dead and buried, risen and glorified. The coming of Jesus fulfilled the O.T. Law. The N.T. scripture where Jesus talks of divorce is found in Matthew 5:31,32 & 19:1-12(and parallel passage in Mark 10:2-12). Paraphrased, the only time a wife can be divorced is for fornication(there are liberal and conservative views as to the meaning of the Gk.Porneia). If that’s not the case, then whoever remarries is committing adultery. I choose to be in the conservative camp on that one. N.T. theology says that the partaking of food offered to idols is forbidden, but all is lawful when eaten in Jesus’s name.
            The prophet Jeremiah says, Man’s heart is deceitfully wicked above all else. The apostle Paul tells us in Romans, that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. And yes you are right in saying we are all condemned, since man’s fall from grace we have a sin nature. That’s why we are in need of a savior, we can’t be good enough no matter how hard we try. Scripture also says, our righteousness is as filthy rags to God(literal interpretation is in fact women’s menstruation rag). Pretty disgusting and graphic description- but not without great meaning. We need God’s help with this problem and there is no fixing it ourselves. But scripture also tells us there is a solution to our sinful nature, the Apostle John tells us, For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. So there in Christianity in a nutshell. We call on the name of Jesus asking him to be our Lord and Savior and we are welcomed into god’s eternal Kingdom. Jesus’ shed blood now covers those sins, past, present and the ones we will surely commit in the future. We are redeemed and his righteousness is imputed to us and the Holy Spirit is given to aide in our sanctification. Do we sin -yes- but Jesus is the propitiation for that sin. Does grace allow us to continue in sin-yes. But, we no longer want to stay that way, when we sincerely repent God gives us the power over that sin and we become more Christlike-perfect-absolutely not-but our worldview changes to God’s as we submit to his guidance. Make a decision for Jesus and welcome to a new way of life. May God Bless You.

          • Vikki Turkin

            He was one of my favorites but I see the truth…I hear what he is saying and it is really sad that he has compromised or has he been this way?

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Amen – well said – Jesus gets us out of our “comfort” zone a lot, doesn’t he?

          • You hit the nail on the head. Coming to Christ as Lord and Savior, being baptized in the Holy Spirit and reading the Word of God means that we are to be the hands and feet of God. We are imputed with His righteousness. And, we(especially a minister/pastor) need to take that confession of faith seriously, because God does. For one(born-again) to deviate from the associate responsibility of speaking the Word in love means they are denying the redemptive power that that word may have provided to someone reading or hearing the message. Jakes message is, if you are gay you don’t have to change your ungodly lifestyle just go find a church that preaches what you want to hear. What has become of: Repent and be Baptized in the name of Jesus? God Bless you Brother.

          • Quincy

            What scripture is completely accurate? The bible was written by men. The words of TD Jakes are also men. You are not one to condemn,the only thing you can actually say is that one is a sinner and must be brought to Christ to be saved

          • The Word of God is written by the hand of God and the pen of man, and is in fact, infallible. The breath of God( GK. Pneuma-divine breath) brought life through, and equals the Word. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh , and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” Jn. 1:1, 14. Scriptures declare that Jesus Christ is the manifold wisdom of God( Eph. 3:10, 11) and the perfect revelation of the nature and person of God( Col. 2:9). The fact that Jesus fulfilled every O.T. prophecy about his first coming we can trust the Wod/Jesus to be correct about His second coming. There are approximately 100+ O.T. prophesies that talk of the Messiah/Jesus coming. Taking just 17, and mathematically calculating that one man could fulfill them, the resulting number is so large- the sum is equal to stacking silver dollars 1′ high covering the entire state of Texas. The Word is truth because God cannot lie.

          • James

            You have no clue what you’re talking about. You need a lesson in Bible history.

          • I have all the history I need to understand the Word of God-the revealing of himself to us. It’s found in the bible. Try reading it, and you will be truly informed.

          • Quincy

            You didn’t answer the question. I went to seminary and studied most religions. Scholars, historians, pastors will all tell you that although God’s word was given to man the translation you see now was all swayed by men to benefit their own beliefs. God’s word is bond but the BIBLE is a tool guide. So again I say how are you one to condemn any man that is also giving his views based on God’s word that he believed was given to him?

          • Pray for faith.

          • James

            The Bible is man-made. Early church leaders gathered together many documents and document fragments written by many different writers over a period of centuries. They sorted, kept some, discarded others. Then they edited and translated, and finally put the results into a book which we now call the Bible. Anybody who has honestly and thoroughly studied the Bible knows that it is not inerrant. It was neither written nor dictated by God. The doctrine of inerrancy sets up a human creation – a book – as an idol. God alone should be worshipped, not the Bible.

          • Nobody is worshipping a book. The Holy Bible-the Word of God- is the the revelation of the character, the heart, the wisdom, the plan, the power and the will of God. Scripture tells us Jesus is the Word of God come in the flesh(Jn. 1:1,14). To deny the Holy Bible being the Word of God is to deny Jesus and his ministry of reconciliation. “So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.” Ro. 10:17. By the Holy Bible-the Word of God- we are informed of God’s plan for the faithful, and the fate of those who choose not to believe and obey it. “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed s he that readeth, and they hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.” Rev. 1:1-3 . We see here the importance that God places on the truth of scripture; namely, we receive God’s blessing when we READ, HEAR and OBEY the things written in the book.
            Also, we know from the HOLY BIBLE(the only book God wrote)a.k.a. THE WORD OF GOD- that the one true God is three persons in one: FATHER, SON and HOLY GHOST., referred to as the TRINITY. In the first epistle of the Apostle John we see a reference to this made by John- ” For there are three that bear record in heaven, the FATHER, the WORD, and the HOLY GHOST: and these three are one. Well it would seem that John is confused saying the second part of the trinity is the Word, or could it be that the WORD OF GOD and the SON of GOD are in fact the same. Well there you have it. Believe it unto salvation, or don’t believe it and choose HELL for your place in eternity.

          • God wrote one book-the Bible-and he has protected its infallibility down through the ages.

          • James


          • Is that all you’ve got? Why not take the time to show me there error of my way? You are certainly adamant in your beliefs(or lack there of), so you must have some basis for these strong “feelings”. I would love to hear it.
            “All scripture is given by inspiration* of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” II Tim. 3:16-17
            *inspiration(Gk-theopneustos): theo= God, pneo= breathe; so inspired = God-breathed.
            “For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” II Pet. 1:21
            A couple of questions that come to mind seeing all your comments here: Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God? And is he your Lord and Savior?

          • Ron

            I agree. The word of God has not evolved, it remains the same. Heaven and earth shall pass away. man with man, woman with woman, seeking to use the natural use of their bodies to burn with lust of the unnatural is an abomination, said the Lord

          • James

            You as a negro should stop trying to oppress people. That Bible or that Christianity that you follow is the same one that said you are even going to heaven. It’s the same one that said you couldn’t marry. It’s the same one that said you’re less than. I can get the Bible to say lots of stuff.

          • Faye

            Well Said!!!

          • Bt

            You are in denial. Clearly he is not against it and does make any attempt to say what God’s word says on the matter. At best, he is compromising….That’s obvious.

          • James Norris

            He is a Man of God if he is not against it he is for it, An what i read is , this will help keep black church goers who are battling with this subject to stay under the thumb of liberals an Democrats like Jakes, An yes in another article he did say Gays should be able to marry an should receive equal rights,.It is all politics for him an keeping the blacks under the rule of Democrats..

          • PCA- Listen to the whole interview. When given the chance he doesn’t say its wrong either, what he says is his views are evolved and evolving, just like the country’s views. Then he goes on to say that we are not a Christian nation. I think the man is staying middle-of-the-road to sell more books to a broader audience and he needs a new Rolls. He didn’t talk as a minister of God should on the subject, offering words of correction to those living in error by citing the Word. The Word hasn’t changed in 2,000+ years and neither has God’s view on the subject. As Christians we are to stand on the truth, even if we stand alone.

          • Kelley

            Exactly….I keep reading these comments, wondering if they even read the article or just the headlines. smh

          • Kelechi

            He doesn’t need to, he wants to be politically correct

          • PunchDrunkLove

            Nah, you can’t straddle, that’s what he did. God says it plainly. Homosexuality is an abomination….period. There is no “evolving” to happen. All you can give gays or any sinner (as we all are), is the word of God. No sugaring it up or down. And really Jakes can take the low road and play it safe, but God will hold us all to the scriptures and the life of Christ on the day of judgement. No man can annul or dilute the word. Dangerous game he’s playing.

        • KaiLi Carson

          Disappointed too. Nicely said Evermyrtle.

        • Lucia

          Well said

        • Rolls Royce car, private jet, multi-million dollar homes, flashy clothes and jewelry, book deals and who knows what else off the backs of the poor, working class fellow christian. I predict that his congregation should and will get smaller after these comments. The love of money…

        • Regina Bailey

          If people had listened to the full interview they would have known that what he was talking about was a separation of church and state and that regardless of what laws are past that the Church has to look at it from a Word based theological view and not a sociological view. This article is very misleading and I am disappointed that a Christian news network would fall into the same type of behavior as worldly networks. I saw the interview in which he responded to homosexuality. I think people are misconstruing what he is saying. He is not saying that he agrees with homosexuality what he is saying is that there needs to be a separation of church and state which I fully agree with. This is not a Christian nation based on Christian laws. We need to get over that and walk like Jesus and the disciples walked during a time when there was a wicked King with all manner of sin going on but you do not see them trying to change worldly laws. During that time Christians were thrown to the Lions but Christians still did what they were commanded to do. The great commission is to spread the Good News, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Even God gives us choices whether to receive His Word or not He would never force his word on people. What does the Word say if you are not received to wipe the dust off your feet and keep it moving. Why can’t we just do the ministry that God has given each individual to do and allow HIM by way of his Holy Spirit who brings the conviction to do the work within each individual that hears the Word. But how can they hear if we are arguing amongst each other over what a wordly government is doing. We have allowed too many distractions to come in and we are not doing the ministry that God has ordained for us to do according to his Word.

        • James

          Simply following the Bible is following other human beings, rather than God. It is up to each reader of the Bible to use spiritual discernment to separate the wheat (the parts of the Bible that are consistent with God’s will) from the chaff (the parts of the Bible that are simply the result of human frailty, fear, and ignorance). Some of the writers of the Bible were anti-gay. God, however, is not anti-gay. God does not hate any of God’s children. People who genuinely want to follow Jesus will let go of their anti-gay prejudice and do as Jesus taught – love your neighbor as yourself. When that happens, churches, without any coercion, will welcome lgbt people, and will celebrate the marriages of gay couples and of lesbian couples.

      • Vikki Turkin

        I agree- In the last days even the very elect will be deceived. All we could do is pray

    • Joseph Kivaya

      The Bible is riddled with repetitions and contradictions, it doesnt have a firm stand on its self, things that the Bible bangers would be quick to point out in anything that they want to criticize. For instance, Genesis 1 and 2 disagree about the order in which things are created, and how satisfied God is about the results of his labors. The flood story is really two interwoven stories that contradict each other on how many of each kind of animal are to be brought into the Ark–is it one pair each or seven pairs each of the “clean” ones? The Gospel of John disagrees with the other three Gospels on the activities of Jesus Christ (how long had he stayed in Jerusalem–a couple of days or a whole year?) and all four Gospels contradict each other on the details of Jesus Christ’s last moments and resurrection

      • WinkyVonTrollStuffer

        Written by someone who has never actually studied the bible, but did read a few webpages about it. LOL

        • Joseph Kivaya

          I wish I didn’t, born a Christian grew up in church ’till I realize there was something wrong with the doctrine. And I was serving a master who was not just, for instance what was His real intention of creating the “forbidden tree”, using this verse “I knew you even before you were born…” means He knew Adam/Eve were going to eat it, so was He looking for an excuse to punish humanity? Then I started seeing how unfair He was, that he could kill innocent Egyptian little children (first born) just to prove to one Tribe:- Israelite how great He was, as if the Egyptians were created by the devil…. Winky the Bible is quite a crazy book, and I have had a lot of time to read it…. and any one can use it to justify even the worst crime in humanity, like the way it was used to enslave the blacks, reading the mosaic laws… So yes something is really wrong with the bible…

          • WinkyVonTrollStuffer

            It’s interesting the assumptions you make to for your conclusions. 1. You have no way to know if the Egyptian firstborn were “innocent” or not. Unless you have omniscience. 2. It could be God has sufficient reason for creating humans knowing they would fall, if he had not done so you would not exist. 3. In the end God will create a New heavan and new earth where righteousness dwells.
            There are many mysterious things that go on in the world, but unless you posses a perfect knowledge of all circumstances you have no way to know if something is “fair” or not. The message of the bible is that because man is made in the image of God you owe your fellow humans a high level of respect until they do something to warrant other treatment. As for your point about slavery, the bible is both a history book telling you “what” did happen as much as it is a book telling what God wants to happen. There is no equivalent between the race based slavery of the recent passed which was actually started by Muslims and the biblical idea of a bond servant. Which was limited to a 7 year term. The black slave trade was actually ended by Christians first in Britain and then in the US where over 400k white men of northern states inspired by biblical preaching lost their lives to forcibly free black slaves. If it wasn’t for bible believing protestants your people would still be picking cotton under a whipwhip.

          • Joseph Kivaya

            Great points there Winky, I will agree with you on this “The message of the bible is that because man is made in the image of God you owe your fellow humans a high level of respect until they do something to warrant other treatment”….. which also should be apply to gays right? About innocence of Egyptian children is not questionable, a merciful, all loving God wont do that, and God “sufficient”reasoning of man fall is quite questioning, a all knowing God wont be doing a trial and error on us right? To an extent of sending His beloved son Jesus to suffer for nothing just to save almost no one, afterall everyone is dying a sinner, Jesus Himself said it…”There are no righteous, not even me, but expect for the Father”, point is we are all heading to the same place: HELL 🙁

          • WinkyVonTrollStuffer

            God owns the earth and the people in it, he can do with it as he sees fit. “there is none righteous, not one” is NOT a Jesus quote it is from the old testament prophets. I think you have issues with the translation your are using. However, you have the gist of it – all humans deserve hell because we are in fact evil by nature. To allow for justice God came to earth as Jesus to lead a sinless life and then willingly allow himself to be killed so in the end God can say of course its fair I did it myself except I didn’t deserve anything you did to me on earth. Then to demonstrate his love he applies the price he paid to the account of some people who accept the sacrifice, he then begins the work of changing your nature from that of being dominated by evil to that righteousness, that work is completed in each individual when they die, so at the resurrection we will be completed new creations capable of living in the new heaven and earth without wrecking it.

            Your basic issue is not with the bible, but with god. You hate God. Which is your right, but its not surprising because that is also part of the message of the bible. Man hates God and that is why there is a separation. The good news is in the end everybody gets what they want, the god haters such as yourself will be eternally separated from any benefit God might convey. And those who love god will be with him and separated from the God haters who have wrecked this world.

            Anyway, I don’t have anything else to ad. Dont bite the hand that feeds you.

          • Eric Velazco

            God is good regardless of your opinions on what He should have done or has done throughout history. The simple fact that you are breathing right now is enough to get on your face and worship Him. The same breath you use to blaspheme against God is a gift from Him.

          • Joseph Kivaya

            Eric Ok, that’s a weird argument, God gave me breath to use it in blaspheming?

          • Eric Velazco

            No argument from me my brother. God bless you.

          • The Ranger

            Your not born a Christian unless your born again of the Spirit. ISAIAH 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter’s clay:
            for shall the work say of him that made it,
            He made me not?
            or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it,
            He had no understanding?

          • Susan Becker Towler

            You cannot be born a Christian. You can be raised in a Christian way but you have to repent and turn away from sin, accept Jesus’ sacrifice for you and receive Him as your personal savior. Receive His Holy Spirit and begin to read His Word asking the Holy Spirit to enlighten you to understand it. You must be born again. The things of the Spirit must be discerned by the Spirit.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Thank you for writing this!

          • Sherry Embry

            Joseph – God created you with a free will to choose. That is love. Notice God doesn’t control you. He gives us life and lets us choose freely. God has planted moral law into the heart of all mankind in our conscience. Even if you didn’t know the ten commandments, you still know deep down it’s wrong to steal from somebody, etc.

            About the tree in the garden – do yo think that no one has ever been given instructions to protect them? Or that no one should ever develop self control? Have you ever worked and been given instructions? Do you have children? This is a natural order of things. We say to our children if you do what I told you not to I will correct you. Look at Pharaoh he was given every opportunity to yield or self correct and he defiantly refused to. Can you not see that consequences and judgment are set into the system as a way of life? This is what caused the fall of man, defiance to God’s instructions and notice how the snake in the garden took God’s very words out of context. Let us not be guilty of the same thing. Wasn’t it costly to go with the snakes reasoning? Yes! Resulting in the fall of man and the decaying of the flesh that leads to eventual death. Broken communion with God – He visited with them daily. Adam’s decision affected the whole of mankind. God wanted to restore us from our fallen condition and sent His son Jesus in the form of man to redeem mankind calling Jesus the second Adam thereby affecting all of mankind that would respond to His message in repentance and belief on Him.

            Self gratification and indulgence of every kind seem to be the thinking or theme of the day. But Jesus said “if” you would be my disciple, you must deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow me. Notice the word “if”that’s conditional and based on our obedience to what He asks us to do. Denial is the opposite of gratifying ourselves. Taking up our cross means we will have to die to the desires of the flesh or anything that is disobedient to His word or instructions. Lastly He says to follow Him, that means His teaching even if we don’t like it or agree with it. It’s about yielding our lives to His. That’s what it means for Him to be the Lord of our life.

            I beg you don’t go for the snake’s reasoning.

          • Joseph Kivaya

            Sherry I appreciate you kind words, the Bible is quite clear about God’s love, just like Matthew 7:9 on father/son relationship, and that God’s love being greater than that, so was wondering is there any father who can have for instance, four glasses, one containing poison, and give instruction about it, and knowing that his son will drink it up (after all God know about our tomorrow) just to test his self control? I doubt that.
            About God sending his son, well to be honest, it really doesn’t make any sense, coz Jesus seemed to have saved no one. Christian/People of God are doing pretty the same thing prior to Jesus coming and even now, nothing as changed, we all have to believe in Him, if we don’t we all go to hell just like old days, in fact old days were much cooler, coz God did a lot of miracle to convince man on believing in him, nowadays He doesn’t.
            Lastly, Sherry am not going the snake way, am just so curious, and my Cup is completely empty, I want to believe in Him, but I really cant get a good reason to…

          • Sherry Embry

            God created us with a free will giving us free choice. He sets before us eternal life and eternal damnation. The choice is up to us. You seem to relegate fault to God for what we choose instead of taking the responsibility for our own choices. Can you see what I’m saying? We get the consequence or reward for the choice we make.
            Back to the garden – God told Adam and Eve that if they ate of the fruit they would surely die. Look at God’s goodness here – He instructs them, he warns them, then He lets them freely choose.

            The Snake which we know is the devil tells them opposite of the truth. He tells them you will not die you will become wise like God etc. Who made the choice in the end? Who fully informed them truthfully? Who fed them faulty or dissenting arguments that denied the truth? The same thing happens today. The truth is preached and along comes someone suggesting that it’s not really life or death like they say… we still have a choice to make.

            You say Jesus doesn’t save. Look at the thief on the cross. Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise. The thief came to the truth and quit fighting and accepted that Jesus is Lord. He was saved. Then, there was Zachias the little man that climbed up in a tree to hear the Lord preach. He was a thief, a tax collector. He ripped ppl off. Jesus spent the day with him and went home with him and he believed on Jesus. He returned everything he had stolen plus 4 times over what he had taken from ppl. Joseph, you don’t act like that unless you are saved and have repented. To repent means to have a change of mind and to agree with God and His ways. I want you to know God still does miracles today. He still saves men. He still heals. I’ve seen blind eyes open and legs grow out at the name of Jesus. I’ve seen ppl delivered that were addicted to drugs. My best friend use to be a drug addict and a lesbian and God set her free. She’s been saved for 10 years and preaches the gospel. He’s real Joseph. When you are alone call out to God and ask Him to reveal Himself to you. He will come to you and open your eyes and your understanding and set you free. Look at Psalms 19:7-13

            Back to the garden one more time with me. Even though Adam and Eve sinned and transgressed God’s law causing all of mankind to sin. God sent His son Jesus so we wouldn’t stay in this fallen state. You don’t have to continue in your sin. Jesus is the remedy. Call on Him.

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            The leader of the Egyptians wanted all male Jews to be killed at the time of birth. Good thing is that the midwives lied and said they gave birth before the could kill the babies. That may be why God chose to kill the fist born sons in Egypt. At least God did not kill every son. Remember they worshiped many gods in Egypt. Egypt was Guilty of killing many newborn babies of the Jews.

          • Joseph Kivaya

            Summary is God aint Merciful, and He is ready to revenge on behalf of a tribe that had a hard time believing in Him. And He also took them from Egypt and had them die in number in the wilderness…(Num 14:27-30)… How long shall I bear with this evil congregation who complain against Me? I have heard the complaints which the children of Israel make against Me. 28 Say to them, ‘As I live,’ says the LORD, ‘just as you have spoken in My hearing, so I will do to you: 29 The carcasses of you who have complained against Me shall fall in this wilderness, all of you who were numbered, according to your entire number, from twenty years old and above. 30 Except for Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun, you shall by no means enter the land which I swore I would make you dwell in”

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            I feel bad for you. Your choosing to reject God is your free will choice. The only thing I will now say is that if it is God’s Will for you to be delivered and to be saved. May His Will be done for you in Yeshus.
            Shalom <

      • Sherry Embry

        I’m not sure what disagreement of order you are referring to in Gen.1&2.
        But I can tell you about the reason for the differences in the gathering in of the animals. The pair of two, that was for procreation for repopulation after the flood. The seven pairs were for sacrifice and worship. Remember when Noah and his family got off the ark the first thing they did was to pray and worship God. There worship had the sacrificing of animals for a blood sacrifice until Christ came and fulfilled that ceremonial law. Remember Jesus was clean and without spot or blemish – this is actually a type and shadow.

        The gospel of John does not disagree with the other gospel accounts it supports them. Here’s how – If you were in a car accident and there were 4 eye witnesses that saw the whole thing. They would be separated and questioned by the officer who shows up to review the accident and fill out the report. They will all give the same account in there own words. Would they word some things differently? Yes, this is the same thing here, but each story or account would support the others. The writers of the 4 gospels were also eye witnesses to the events and miracles and teachings of Jesus. Hope that helps some.

        • Jade

          You are wrong Sherry and Joseph is right. If we start with Genesis, Day 1 we have day and night, yet the sun was not until Day 4. We have plants and trees on Day 3 yet no sun until Day 4. The moon is not a source of light; it is a reflection of the sun. Genesis 1 states animals were made first then people. Genesis 2 states that man was made and then the animals. If you look at the Gospels, the writings did not occur until 20-70 years after Jesus died. Only 2 of the 4 writers have disciples names but most scholars believe that they were written by other people using the names of Matthew and John. Major differences do occur even though a lot of what Mark wrote was copied by Matthew and Luke (Synoptic). The Gospel of John has Jesus dying one day earlier than the rest of the Gospels. I could go on and on but it would cover many pages of writings.

          • True essence

            Sorry Jade, but where in Genesis 1, did you see God created animals first? Be careful about how you mis-interpret the Bible for your own cause.

          • Joseph Kivaya

            True essence may be you should take a little more time with your bible before you start judging….

          • Jade

            Can’t you read it for yourself? Genesis 1:24 “Then God commanded “Let the earth produce all kind of ANIMAL life: domestic and …”. Genesis 1:26 “THEN God said “And now we will make HUMAN BEINGS…”.

          • The Ranger

            God is light he doesn’t need the sun. Isaiah 29: 16″ Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter’s clay:
            for shall the work say of him that made it,
            He made me not?
            or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it,
            He had no understanding?”

          • Jade

            God is the light? Is he also the heat from the sun because the temperature would be absolute zero (very, very cold) and without the sun and I can assure you that nothing would be alive! Also if God is the light, would he not be light completely around the earth, no day and night? The reason we have day and night is because the sun’s rays can only strike one half of the earth’s surface at a time. Please take off your religious blinders because your logic is pathetic.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            It always amazes me how, despite how many times God is referred to as Light, atheists just cannot get around the fact that “THERE WAS NO SUN, WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE!” is not a good defeater of Genesis. 🙂

          • Sherry Embry

            You are are grasping at straw man arguments.
            But I believe the real issue you are stumbling over is… or that you are wrestling with is…

            You are at odds with your body and its design and purpose which can place you at odds with the Creator and Designer of your body.

            God created “man” which means mankind. Then He created Eve which Adam called “woman”which means the part of mankind that has a “womb.” The Bible goes on to tell us that they both were assigned there roles and purposes by God. He brought them together and they were married.You may know the rest of the story of how God distinctly created the two genders – male and female. It is God’s creation and God’s design. You are really grappling with the Creator. When we wrestle or continue to resist His truth we will find ourselves in confusion or lost.

            Consider Jude1:4 It says there were certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old were ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our Lord God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

            This book is about men or teachers who were creeping into the church to change the message of the gospel and to turn or change the meaning of the doctrine of grace into sexual immorality. That verse says those men will face condemnation – that’s judgment. Vs.3 says that the church was contending for the faith that means they were addressing the false teaching to keep the church pure. Vs. 7 gives the outcome of such lifestyles- eternal fire. Just look into it for yourself. I say these things to you in love, not to win points or an argument, but because I care for your soul. To warn you in the path you are taking. Refusing the real gospel truth leads to the hardening of the conscience which allows one to indulge in sin easily with no regard to offending God. And finally the end of this verse says that denying true godly grace is a denial of Jesus himself. Don’t deny or reject Him or His full message of truth. He loves you and died for you. I will be praying for you.

      • The Ranger

        The problem is not with contradictions dear sir but with discernment.
        1 Corinthians 2:14
        But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

      • Sherri

        I tell you what, you pick three other friends and then you all follow me for over three years and then several years later everyone sit down and tell all your experience following me and see if all four of you get every single detail exactly the same. I think you get the point.

    • Rod Woolfolk


    • Bryan Person

      CO-signature on that!

    • amostpolitedebate


      *Proceeds to give ten page dissertation on why it’s ok to wear mixed fabrics and eat shellfish*

      • Diana Baskin

        If you think this is a sin don’t do it. All sin will send you to hell. This was under the law. We are now under Grace. This is the reason Jesus came into the world. To do away with the law. It is understood no one could keep the law. We no longer have to make sacrifices either. The NT tells us how we should live today. It speaks against UN-Natural affection which is men with men, women with women. If people want don’t want to obey God’s laws that is their right. These weak excuses won’t change God’s laws.

        • Auktun


        • DUH

          Uh, no. The New Testament speaks against it as well. You need to brush up on your Bible.

          • Gina


          • timinitiator .

            Romans 1:26-28 deals directly with homosexuality 29-32 includes other sins along with 26-28 but 32 points out that people give approval to do them. People compliment people for doing them. That is sad.

          • tallfreak

            Hebrew translation doesn’t have a word for homosexual. Usually it is referring to nonconsensual relations between men (i.e. a boy sex slave). There is no reference to a homosexual loving relationship in the Bible.

        • WorldGoneCrazy

          Well-said, Sister-in-Christ!

        • timinitiator .

          Romans 1 DUH

        • katalambano

          you will not find anywhere in scripture “this is the reason Jesus came into the do away with the law.” In fact, this is what scripture says in Matthew 5:17–Jesus: “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to
          fulfill.” Yes, we are commanded to make a sacrifice. in Romans 12: 1-2 we are to “offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God–this is your true and proper worship.” it goes on to tell us not to be conformed to this world’s way but to be transformed by the renewing of our minds which is the only way we will be able to prove and have true knowledge of what the will of God is.

      • corybantic

        The Old Testament laws were all fulfilled by Christ’s redemptive act at the cross. Therefore, we are no longer beholden to follow the Jewish customs of the Mosaic law. We see an excellent example of this with circumcision, Jews are mandated to circumcise their male sons by the Jewish covenant. However, this most important act was done away with by Christ’s death and resurrection (see Acts 15) in the same manner, so is the Levitical and kosher laws which held the Jews in check.

        *No 10 page dissertation needed*

        • amostpolitedebate


        • WorldGoneCrazy

          Sweet reply! Plus, a GREAT pic – thanks!

        • Gina

          good response.

        • tallfreak

          Cory, explain why Christians ignore the NEW Testament too. 1 Corinthians 11:6 – Women should not cut their hair.

          • Texas ParentsCare

            Long hair and/or a veil was a thing of honor for a woman… If her hair was cut off or shaven; or a veil was not worn, it was a sign of disrespect…Cambridge Commentary says:
            but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven] i.e. with her hair either cropped close or shaven. This was considered a disgrace. It was the sign of a slave (see Aristophanes, Birds, 911), or of one in mourning and humiliation (Deuteronomy 21:12).

          • Evermyrtle

            Christians do not ignore the New Testament, The word “Christian” comes from the word CHRIST and the New Testament mentions HIM many times, HE who is the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD and we cannot get to heaven without JESUS CHRIST! Ignorance is no excuse!! HE died for you just as much as HE died for me, you can be saved, too!!

            How do we determine what a Christian is??
            Matthew 7:15-18
            15. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves
            16. Ye shall know them b their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns,or figs of thistles?
            17. Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit: but a corrupt tree bringeth fort evil fruit.
            18. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a good tree bring forth corrupt fruit.

          • corybantic

            1 Cor. 11:2-14:40 speak specifically about the problems of the liturgical assemblies at Corinth – that’s the first thing we have to acknowledge. As such, when read in it’s context, it is clear that St. Paul’s goal is to bring the women who have been worshiping without a head covering (veil) back into conformity with the contemporary practices at Corinth. 1Cor 11:6 states that it is shameful for a woman to shave her hair – why? Because of little thing called modesty. There were women at Corinth who didn’t veil their heads during the Liturgical celebrations and the faithful leaders at Corinth decided to ask Paul as to what was the reason behind having to cover up.

            St. Paul goes on to explain why it is necessary for women to veil themselves in order for her to maintain her womanly glory and humility in front of God. In today’s world, this would be an example of a woman going to a Catholic Mass or Protestant service wearing a mini-skirt, no bra and a tube top showing her mid-drift. This would hardly be appropriate attire to go an worship in, why? Because in the same spirit of what was written in 1 Cor: 11:6, an immodestly and scantly dress woman at church brings a certain sense of scandal to the laity.

            In other words, Church isn’t the place for a woman to show off her new boob job. See also 1 Tim. 2.

      • Are there any Levitic Priests around? Understand the differences between the various types of laws and what/how they are nullified. The Bible tells us not tourder, and that law has never changed. What we eat? Yes, changed and this change affirmed by Jesus.

    • llama mama

      ExActly! I’m rather surprised that the “bishop” has gone this route. Sad indeed.

      • L Fe

        surprised? Not me Illama. I watched him over the years and anyone that knows me would tell you that I always said that he does not do it for me. When he first started out he was fighting for the faith but then as he grew more popular etc I always felt that he got bigger than his boots. IMO anything that is contrary to the bible (God’s holy word) is wrong. Only this morning while I was sweeping my home the thought came to me that there will never be a time when God the good LORD decides to change His view or position on anything in His word. In Isaiah the LORD says that He never changes therefore (that’s why) the sons of Jacob (Israel) and I put myself and all believers there, that’s why we are not consumed. To God be the glory, great things He has done. Remember in the last days people will move away from the faith, being led astray by false doctrine etc.

        • tallfreak

          The Church’s interpretation of the Bible changes though. If a woman cuts her hair, she is disobeying the NEW testament’s literal translation. Most churches ignore that today. People cherry pick and choose what parts of the bible they want to obey, so don’t judge others who do the same.

          • Todd Swartzlander

            What Church’s interpretation of the Bible changes? No that is incorrect. The Bible is the road map to get to God and understand how to come back to Him. Jesus is the Way. That never changed. There is salvation in no other name given under Heaven. Jesus. We are separated from God by sin. That never changed. However, Jesus is the one who gave Himself as the only remedy for that. There is forgiveness of sin by the shedding of His blood.
            Homosexuality is a sin. It is a deviant form of love. Having sex in that manner is not normal and is deviant. In anatomy, the anus is not a sexual organ. Sex between a woman and a woman is not natural. Now for the anatomy, the anus has a purpose for eliminating waste from our body. Any other use is not natural or deviant. It is not natural. Homosexuals cannot have children together. So, populating the earth as commanded by God in Genesis cannot be done by homosexuals. What is the book of “The Song of Solomon” about? A relationship between a man and a woman. In the New Testament it says that Jesus is coming back for His bride. A Groom and a Bride. Man and woman symbology. Who is that? The Church. A male and female relationship. Many times the male and female relationship is mentioned in the Bible. There is not anything about homosexual relationships. Why? Because that is not God’s design. Male and female is the design. What other purpose is there?
            The Bible is for you to live your life by not justify your lifestyle. Cherry picking that is interesting. What did Jesus say is the greatest commandment? Remember that one. He said the greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself. He asked the young man if he obeyed the law and kept the commandments. But if he did not love his neighbor he would be guilty of all of the law. Jesus said he came to fulfill the law not to destroy it. So, the Bible has to be taken as a whole. I still do not know it all and I am still learning. Yet the most important thing is a relationship. Having a relationship with God is what the Bible is all about. It is not a religion, not an idea, not a philosophy. No not any of these things. It is about having a relationship with the living God. It is a lifestyle. There is none righteous, no not one. There is also a way which seems right to a man, but the ends thereof are they ways of death. God gives us life, abundant life. That comes from drawing closer to Him. We all need correction from HIm. The Holy Spirit is the one that leads us to correction. In ourselves we do not desire to be corrected we want to do it our way. However, for the Christian, correction always leads to the Bible. Yes, it is for correction. The Bible is for correction, reproof, and many other things. I believe it is better to know God and study the Bible. It is hard to try to live up to it but it is worth the effort.

          • katz

            The greatest commandment is to love God with all your heart, mind and soul. The next commandment is to love your neighbour as yourself. Note there is a big difference.

          • God’s Word Matters

            There is no difference. The second verse tells how you accomplish the first verse. We are all God’s children, however, not all redeemed. If we want to show honor and respect to a fellow human, showing respect to their offspring is the surest way to accomplish this. We got this state of mind from our father God. This second scripture reveals this line of thinking.

          • katz

            I do see your point but what I meant big difference is that no human being should be more important than God even though we are commanded to love one another, for example a boyfriend, a Pastor , the POTUS.

          • Todd Swartzlander

            Very true.

          • Todd Swartzlander

            Katz yes you are correct. Thank you for that. I thought that is what I typed, but obviously I did not. Typing at a late hour is no excuse. Yes, there is a big difference to love the Lord your God with your whole heart, mind, and soul. Yet to also love your neighbor as yourself. Difficult to do but it is a requirement for us followers of Christ.

          • katz

            You are most welcome! The greatest commandment is to love God with all your heart, mind and soul so idolatry is forbidden even though we are also commanded to love one another.

          • c.

            You and a host of other posters on this thread are a bunch of hypocrites…you are sitting in judgement of others as if YOU don’t sin. YOU are sinning right here by judging others which, according to the bible, is not your job. Go back & read where it says WE ARE ALL SINNERS. There are no seperate levels of sin…sin is sin. So for you to act as if you don’t sin and are above a homosexual, someone who has had an adulturous affair or just looks at a man or woman in lust, or even become impatient in line at the grocery store, for example, is to be in denial of what God supposedly says about us all being sinners. You look down your nose, holier than thou people….

          • James Gelus

            Now you said that everyone is posting on this site are hypocrites and that we are all sinners true we all sin according to the word of the most high then you said that we should not judge one another because we are all sinners but you forgot in Matthews the 7th chapter and the fifth says dial hypocrite first cast out the beam out of thine own eye then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the more out of thy brother’s eye in other words the Lord and Savior says that I can correct my fellow brothers and sisters on their sins so as long that I corrected and repent for my sins first so I have the very right by the will of the Most High to correct my brother when he or she sins and also how is everyone supposed to know if they’re doing wrong according to the Bible if I’m not supposed to judge them I am NOT no people on this post condemn them to death but with telling them that they are wrong to be a homosexual to sleep or animals to be lovers of themselves

          • c.

            First, either you didn’t read or understand my initial post because nowhere did I say “everyone who is posting on this site are hypocrites”, I said you and a host of others..there is a difference. Second, the problem with those who like to quote scripture is that they love to use it on others but not to check themselves. You have NO right to correct anyone because you sin on a daily basis. It is human nature. Gossiping and/or talking about people are sins. I suppose you don’t think that’s what you’re doing by negatively commenting about others sin on this thread but it’s exactly what you’re doing. So, about that plank in someone else’s might want to work on that boulder in your own eye before you try to help someone remove theirs or as you put it “correct” them.

          • charles freeman

            Christians have every right to point out behavior that is not in tune with scripture, as long as that Christian has examined his own heart first.

          • Tracy Hawthorne

            So you are a hypocrite yourself? You just judged the people you are saying is judging? Yes Jesus says Ye who are without sin throw the first stone. Yes no one could throw the stone and feel right about it. It’s not everyone’s fault though that a well known pastor took the position he took. As far as pastor’s goes the bible says they are held at a higher standard. So for the pastor to go on record saying what he’s saying then we as Christians have a right to tell him he is not preaching God’s word. You can’t take just the parts you like, and demolish the parts that are not popular, or in this case PC! If pastors are going to do this then they need to lay down the bible and become politicans.

          • c.

            See, now, that’s where you are wrong…I don’t think how I live my life is any better than those who choose not to live theirs according to people like you. YOU ARE NOT ANY BETTER THAN THE PEOPLE IN THIS ARTICLE…so for you to look down at others and still call yourself “Christian” according to how Jesus supposedly taught, well that’s just hypocritical. You’re exactly right in that you just can’t pick & choose the parts of the bible that fit your daily mood and yet, here you are. No one but the Lord is fit to judge anyone so why don’t people stay out of other people’s lives and take care to clean up your own because you have to answer for your own business when you close your eyes for the last time. And, finally, I don’t pretend I don’t’s one thing to admit I’m not perfect and am no better than the next man but it’s quite another to sit on a pedestal and act as if I can’t fall off of it.

          • charles freeman

            TD Jakes preaches heresy. His church, as well as all believers, should point out his SEVERE break with the Bible. Believers are not to lie down and ignore blatant sin. Christianity is not about laying about and doing your own thing. If that is your choice for your walk with the Lord it would probably suit you to find a nice church home in CA.

          • Follow @offensivedialog

            How’s your baby-mama?

          • charles freeman

            Well, I’m often easily confused, and find myself so again.

          • Follow @offensivedialog

            The KKK comes up with daily excuses to be hateful as well. I guess you’re on the right track to religious superiority.

          • charles freeman

            It is incumbent upon the elect to point out sin and sinful behavior to believers.

          • Todd Swartzlander

            Never said I wasn’t a sinner. However, I am a sinner saved by grace. No sin carries more weight than another. That is only in man’s eyes. Much like what you are saying. I am not sitting in judgement of anyone. Sin is sin, I am not making any kind of judgement in saying that. I don’t look down my nose at anyone and I did not in my post. I am no different than you. I know that I need Jesus. I am not perfect and I feel much like what Paul was talking about being a Christian. The good that I should do I do not, the things I should not do I do. I struggle with that every day. That is why Paul said that we must die daily. The sin nature, due to Adam, influences our life constantly. I don’t know anyone that can say they don’t have difficulty with sin. It would be so easy to be like everyone else and live life like they do. Screaming at bad drivers, road rage. Swearing and saying bad words when things go bad. Not loving my wife as I should. Being a jerk to people. Many, many things a person can do that is not good in the eyes of the Lord. Sure I could do these things. I may slip sometimes, but Jesus forgives me when I ask. I even have to ask people to forgive me. That is what Jesus talks about when we have issues, we need to be forgiven. Much along the same lines, we must forgive folks who do us wrong. It is tough but Jesus said we must forgive to be forgiven. I don’t know about you but that is the most difficult thing. I would also like to say that being called a hypocrite doesn’t bother me. That is because I am not one. I am a forgiven Child of God. God loves everyone and that has never changed and it never will. Just because I disagree with someone doesn’t mean that I don’t love them. Nor does it mean that I am judging them. Much like I disagree with you but I have no ill feelings towards you. I could have a normal conversation with you regardless. I believe that I need God more than I need anything else. Now if I have offended you I am sorry. No holier than thou here but I am seeking God and I try to share Jesus with folks. Got to let them know about the sacrifice for our sins that Jesus made. We were all lost without Jesus. People must know without the shedding of His blood there is no remission of sin. You know we are commanded to do that…the Great Commission. Go Ye therefore…

          • KaiLi Carson

            AbsoLUTELY Todd!! Well said!

          • Jay Citylights

            It’s also stated that divorce is adultery. Considering this countries statistics on divorce, where’s the outcry. Again. Cherry picking indeed.

          • tallfreak

            Explain the verse about women not cutting their hair then. You totally ignored that.

          • James Norris

            Hopefully you got the memo , the writer tells us that was just his opinion , As with some other Scripture , Even he was not dumb enough to say the cutting of hair is a mandate from God, their are several examples of the writer telling us it is only his opinion an not inspired of God,..

          • Todd Swartzlander

            Certainly. That represents something that was considered a woman’s crown or adorning. It was very important in the Jewish culture for women to have long hair and to keep it up or covered. If the hair was cut or a woman’s head uncovered, it was considered shameful. Pagan religious ceremonies had women participants that had their hair down or uncovered.In Greek and Roman society is where that happened most often. Paul being a Roman citizen would be very aware of these things. It seems he was making reference to that. Not totally sure but to me it makes sense. In that respect. I need to do more research on that, but that is what I know at this point. I certainly am open to discussion on that and would love to see more references. Perhaps you know of some.
            Now I cannot find anywhere in the Bible that it says that one would go to hell for cutting their hair. The Bible does not say that this would separate a woman from God for eternity if she cuts her hair. I really don’t think is an issue to get hung up on. However, if that stops you from coming to God then it needs attention. If that would stop you from having a relationship with God then it is extremely important.
            On another not, me personally, I love women with long hair. It looks better to me. Not sure why but that is it is just me.

          • tallfreak

            I’m really just wanting to start a discussion about why some “breaking of rules” today are looked at as sins, and others are not (i.e. a woman cutting her hair). I’m a liberal Christian and so I also do not believe cutting ones hair is a sin. I also do not believe two persons of the same gender being in love is a sin either.

          • amostpolitedebate

            Spoiler: Because like all bigots Christians today are reacting to a gut feeling they get when they see the world changing around them rather than any thing real or logical. They are channeling a generalized anxiety into a vulnerable group that they can turn into the “enemy”, thus both justifying the feeling and giving them a hypothetical way to relieve their anxiety (defeat the enemy).

            All those rules and “facts” that they cite to make their case are all incidental. The people on this board don’t actually care about the AIDS epidemic, public health, the definition of marriage, what’s natural or even biblical law. These are just tools they use to attack “the enemy” and consolidate power with the “right” people. Break one argument and they’ll just make up another because it was never about that thing in the first place.

            Hope that helps! Enjoy your many pages of circular/nonsense arguments!

          • Daniel Carlson

            Look the Bible is not a bunch of “do’s” and “dont’s”, in spite of what so many people believe. Yes, the bible certainly has prescriptive language, but it’s not ALL prescriptive language. St. Paul, when he was writing about head coverings in 1 Corinthians, wasn’t introducing a new set of commandments — a new list of do’s and do not’s.

            So the question is: If St Paul isn’t (and as an Apostle who is true to God’s Word, CAN’T) creating new laws, what is he doing? Some would say that it’s just a cultural thing, that it doesn’t apply to the 21st century. Well where does one draw the line on that argument? Maybe Jesus was just a “cultural thing” and doesn’t apply to us today (some churches actually hold to this lie).

            Let me offer you this as something to think and study: St Paul is speaking about the natural order here. Also, the whole narrative about head coverings (regarding both men and woman) is within the notion of “oughtness”. That’s not a command: The 4th Commandment doesn’t say “You ought to honor your father and your mother.” St Paul is offering a principle of practice which ought to be done as a way of clearly expressing faith. This isn’t so much about sin or right/wrong, but this is about not taking our freedom in Christ as a way to indulge cultural or natural desires.

            The head of man ought to be uncovered because his headcovering is Christ (image and likeness stuff from Genesis). Woman ought to cover their heads (have hair/wear hat/both) because their covering is man and they should present themselves in a womanly way, as is how it’s meant to be. To do otherwise is to be contrary to the natural order, and such is also a reflection of one’s faith or priorities.

            Does this mean women HAVE TO wear hats in church? NO! This isn’t a new law. But there should be a sense of obligation on the part of a woman to at least wear womanly, long hair and maybe even a hat, to represent how her husband is her God-given head covering. A man is obliged to not wear a head covering, since God is his true head covering. This goes contrary to the practice of some Jews who would wear head coverings when they prayed or served.

            See when people ask the false question: “What do I have to do to be saved…” and they conclude that they have to wear head coverings in church, they’ve already lost. Salvation is the work of God, and salvation is NOT about head coverings!

          • Matt Farias

            Well said…

          • James Norris

            My friend learn. That was the writers opinion as he told us it was, not inspired of God, their are some scriptures that are from God an some where the writer tells us it is only his opinion..

          • Evermyrtle

            There is quite a difference in cutting your hair, where you may be harming only yourself, and living and teaching others, that an “abomination of GOD” is good, you no ton only are poison but are poisoning those who are fools enough to listen.

            Romans 26 Who will render to every man according to his deeds;
            continue to read through verse 13.

          • Patricia Weinmunson

            Read through Chapters 2 and 3 as well.

          • keith

            people do indeed cherry pick….BUT the Bible does not teach what some assume — that a woman cannot cut her hair 0R that she must wear a veil in church. To cut her hair does NOT disobey a literal translation of the New Testament. I know. I read Greek.
            NO SCRIPTURE teaches this. I am a Bible college professor and have been for years — and teach the New Testament every year. It is just isn’t there.

          • Frank Zellniski

            Only God can judge however, we can all read as evidenced in these posts. If you read the bible Mark chap 10: verse 2-10 Jesus speaks about marriage between a man and woman…His Word(the bible) will never return void. The earth will pass as well as heaven and earth but the Word of God will remain forever. Live as you please, it’s your life but, be prepared for judgment by God Almighty. God bless!!

          • Follow @offensivedialog

            That is correct. People of all colors go to church so they can make themselves out to be superior the their fellow man. It’s why racial movements from MLK to KKK start out in church. It’s why they tend to hate gays, but love or be baby mamas. They give their last dime to the pastoral rolls Royce/mansion fund while their rent is late. They want to feel superior.

          • James Norris

            Not sure if you got the memo, That was not inspired of God as the writer tells us it is his opinion , Some writings the writer tell us is only his opinion an not the inspired of God, you have to read carefully to know these things..

          • Mel

            You fail to understand scripture in light of its historical context. Some things were cultural suggestions not universal law. There is a difference.

          • Mel

            Do the background work on scripture and then speak without ignorance.

        • Follow @offensivedialog

          And I’m certain you follow every single word, correct? Even judge not lest ye be judged. Doubtful, typical hypocrite from a typical hatefully loving church of ignorance.

      • DNelson

        You find it sad that he is making a distinction between the protections provided to citizens under our Constitution and people of faith living their lives according to their own beliefs? Why is that sad?

    • Kay Leonard

      You are right! Another one bites the dust! God help us when we think we can change His Word. Ain’t gonna happen. But then, we are living in the last days. God said this would happen. Christians lift up your heads, your Redemption draweth nigh!!!

    • Dianne

      Bless you, and continue in THE TRUE FAITH AND GOSPEL OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST. Your reward is waiting in HEAVEN. AMEN

      • WorldGoneCrazy

        And may God bless you, Dianne, for your kind words of encouragement and inspiration and for your beautiful, Holy Spirit-inspired prayer for me!

        12 years ago I was an atheist banging on the gates of Hell begging to be let in, but God’s Grace and Mercy saved me from the fate I so richly deserve. I really grieve for those who are led astray, especially those in un-Biblical churches. We gotta keep reaching out to them, because life (in this world) is so short!

        ‘ They only heard the report: “The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” ‘ — Galatians 1:23

        • Dianne

          You are so welcome and thanks for your TESTIMONY. My heart is so encouraged to hear your witness of GOD’S unfailing love and grace. The Lord is so patient with all of us wether we acknowledge that or not. I like to start my day thanking the Lord that I can see the sunlight. So many people take even that for granted. I take a blind elderly woman home after church and she once was able to see, but because she neglected to treat her eye disease as instructed by her physician see lost her sight completely. She has a wonderful attitude about it because she jokingly admits that
          ” a hard head makes a soft behind ” LoL. But on a serious note we should NEVER EVER DISMISS the INSTRUCTIONS OF GOD given in HIS HOLY WORD.

          May the GOOD AND AWESOME LORD continue to strengthen your inner man with HIS GREAT AND BOLD ANOINTING. You are definitely PRECIOUS IN HIS SIGHT.
          Showers of blessings dear fellow warrior soldier in the LORD’S ARMY.
          I’ll look forward to meeting you in the ETERNAL KINGDOM OF OUR LORD JESUS.

          SHALOM ?

    • Matt Farias

      Very well said…have to copy paste it.

    • keith

      This is scandalous as Jakes is a pentecostal. How can they claim a special blessing and baptism of God’s Spirit, yet follow a wrong spirit? Obviously speaking in tongues cannot be of God or their followers would not be following the devil — and Jakes is. This is now very, very obvious.

    • Dr A

      I believe that this is a true indication of who these men who proclaim themselves as God’s servants really are. FALSE PROPHETS. They now show their shallow surface towards the word because they have always been there to make merchandise of the word of God and become wealthy. Instead of standing for the intoxicated word of God they accept and allow these abominations to gain membership and more wealth.

    • Daisy Rivera

      AMen very well said WorldGoneCrazy… The bible does not change the word of God does not change BUT MAN… The bible says ( Heaven and earth shall pass but my word shall not pass) Man want to PLEASE man and that’s where it goes WRONG when you don’t stand on the word and stand for GOD !! and want to be MAN PLEASERS and GOD did not call us for that BUT TO PREACH THE TRUTH…

    • SpeakTruth

      Great response WorldGoneCrazy. We must stand for the whole truth and counsel of God and not try to be all things to all men to keep fan base happy. I’m disappointed in Bishop Jakes response. #Tepid. #Stradlingthefence!

      • WorldGoneCrazy

        God bless you, SpeakTruth! All Glory to the Holy Spirit on that one!

    • Chris Glover

      I assume you never wear mixed fibres?

      • WorldGoneCrazy

        I LOVE strawman attacks from New Atheist – used to be an Old Atheist myself!

        So just provide all of the evidence – Church documents, creeds, hymns, Church history, Church writings on matters of orthodoxy and orthopraxy, statements of faith, etc showing me that the Christian Church has “evolved” on wearing mixed fibers over 2000 years, and gone from prohibiting to not prohibiting such practices. Also, please provide evidence, since you seem to be referring to OT passages in the Bible, that you have trolled Orthodox Judaism sites to point these things out to them regarding the Tanach, as well, so that we may all understand that your “view” of Christian and Jewish doctrines and practices is scholarly
        and rooted in evidence and reason, and not the result of a blind faith emotional atheism.

        Thanks and God bless!

    • ponder


    • And T.D. himself, unfortunately.

      • WorldGoneCrazy

        He has a history of dabbling in the false prosperity “gospel” area too – not as bad as Osteen, but still worrisome.

        • Right- a diamond ring big enough to choke a horse, a Rolls Royce, a Canadair Challenger 600 Executive Jet, multi-million dollar homes,,,,something smells funny at the Potters House. I think Olsteen took lessons from TD

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Wow – that is more than “dabbling” – thank you!

    • Marcellus

      Well said world gone crazy well said

    • mike

      God bless you

      • WorldGoneCrazy

        Thank you, Mike, and God bless you too, Brother!

    • VicterMaitland

      1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    • James

      I can tell you don’t read your Bible. You didn’t even read this article. BTW the Bible is well not real. Man made it. Man put the pieces together. Not one word did God write.

    • Resona Jackmon

      AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!!

      • WorldGoneCrazy

        God bless you, Resona! Keep standing firm for our Lord – I love your faith!

    • MsDtown

      Who told you that…King James?

    • James

      Homophobia is man-made. Love is of God. Churches that now welcome and affirm lgbt people are getting closer to God, and leaving human prejudice behind.

  • Godfrey Young

    TD Jakes you are so wrong .That is not the word of God at all.You have sold out for fame and money, you will answer to God. God does not compromise.

  • Dammie

    You know I almost believed what Pastor Jakes said. It sounded so… I don’t even think I have the words to describe it. Thank God for the Holy Spirit and some comments of Christians in this discussion that helped me see the truth. I think what Pastor Jakes is trying to say is that we should not discriminate against homosexuals and transgenders, which we honestly shouldn’t do, but it’s just the way he says it. I honestly don’t think the issue of homosexuality or transsexualism is something the church should be grappling with, it’s clearly stated in the bible. There’s no confusion about it. God’s stand on the issue is clear and since this is so, I sincerely don’t understand how a church that honours God can advocate it. I’ve tried to understand it, but it’s hard for me to understand. Even with all the arguments I’ve heard in support of it.

    • amostpolitedebate

      “You know I almost believed what Pastor Jakes said. It sounded so… I don’t even think I have the words to describe it.”





      • LoreneFairchild

        Ear tickling, worldly, secular, unholy, untrue…

    • Thisoldspouse

      You sounded so rational until you disparaged discrimination. The Bible is a discriminating book, through and through. The ability to discriminate is the essence of freedom.

      So, what do you have against discrimination, which, by the way, you yourself practice constantly and unashamedly?

      • amostpolitedebate

        Please define “discrimination”. Because to most people the word means “to treat someone badly based on their group affiliation alone”, which most people certainly do NOT do.

  • Terry Natalia

    I would say he is talking out of both sides of his mouth.

  • Anita Wages

    I am so shocked and disappointed in Rev. T.D. Jakes. He is caving to the homosexual agenda. Another pastor, lead astray. God help you sir.

    • amostpolitedebate

      What makes you so sure he’s “caving”? Couldn’t he have just had a change of heart?

      • kagai

        Jeremiah 17:9 “The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is?

    • LoreneFairchild

      His doctrine has been questionable for a long time. I’m saddened but not surprised.

  • Mr Dave

    What a disappointment with Jakes. He knows what the Bible says on this, it makes all what he did over the years a waste of our time. He turns out to be a fraud for the truth of God’s Word and what it means to live in this world and not be of it.

    • amostpolitedebate

      “Hey, maybe we should show some compassion and not be complete buttholes to strangers for no reason” -> Proof that the man is a fraud and a terrible person.

  • bullhorn

    The deceived have become more so . . . .

  • HoosierConservative

    Wait you mean there were people who thought as recently as yesterday that Jakes was on the right trail? This is when they realize he is wrong about many things?

  • Or Nah

    Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition” 2Thessalonians 2:3

    The coming of the Lord is near; People get ready Jesus is coming!

  • Kevin Ross

    Most of you people are hypocritical idiots who don’t believe in God anyway. TD Jakes first spoke on a sociological point of view when he gave the facts that all churches are not the same. If you think they are all the same, you are either blind or a divide-and-conquer non-believer. Then he spoke on a theological point of view when he said “just because the world is changing does not mean the Word is changing.” Guess this website conveniently left that our of the story. Now who is a wolf in sheep’s clothing? As for you looky-loo Facebook commenters, be careful about casting the first stone. Remember, ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD. I assume you are part of ALL.

    • EndlessRepetition

      Key point: YOU assume. Not everyone is quite with you there.

      • Kevin Ross

        No, God assumes, as is written in His Word…if you have a problem with that, take it up with Him, since He wrote it.. Key point, THE WAGES OF SIN ARE DEATH. ALL sin. None are bigger than the other. Without the free gift God gave us in Jesus Christ, every person on this earth deserves death, including me. So I don’t assume…I know that you are a part of ALL!

        • EndlessRepetition

          You mistake me. I was commenting on his followers. God, as you define him, wouldn’t need to assume.

        • EndlessRepetition

          Not interested in your opinion of what your idea of god says. You don’t speak for any god nor do you tell anyone else what does. You keep yor place.

  • EndlessRepetition

    I wouldn’t hold my breath on this whole “evolving” thing.


    Sodomites need to find Jesus. Then they will be ex sodomites.

    • amostpolitedebate

      No they need to find people to love and spend their lives with.

      • Oboehner

        Spend their lives, LOL that’s rich the most sexually promiscuous group on the planet.

        • amostpolitedebate

          I don’t know man. Lesbians are pretty good at monogamy.

          • Oboehner

            Most lesbians don’t practice sodomy.

          • amostpolitedebate

            So the gay is only bad when boys do it. Got it.

          • Oboehner

            Still with the asinine comments. Got it.

  • chiefpontiac

    Evolving my @$$. They are capitulating because they fear they will be litigated into oblivion by discrimination lawsuits. Which was the plan all along. They want to stay a megachurch and not have to spend money defending traditional marriage. Cowards.

  • Bacchus

    Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

    Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
    Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
    Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    • patra

      amen bacchus

  • patra

    another fake preacher leading people into the fires of hell. disappointed in him, used to watch him, that guy in the video, mr hill, i believe is a left wing liberal, and the huff post is a left wing liberal organization, mr t d jakes, for your info, God does not change, and his word does not change, i suggest you read your bible, esp romans first chapter.

  • BBP Vas

    Gotta protect those coffers.

    • amostpolitedebate

      So you admit homophobia is becoming quite unpopular lately?

      • Oboehner

        Homophobia: a manufactured slur.

        • amostpolitedebate

          Counterpoint: Your post history.

          • Oboehner

            You have no counterpoint, merely using a manufactured word. I could say heterophobia: the fear that gays are just mentally deranged perverts and not born that way.

  • Bobbie Flowers

    The Bible’s position on sin is not evolving. Homosexuality is still what they Bible says it was – an abomination…rebellion against Father GOD who “made them male and female”. And anyone saying something different is not a minister of Jesus Christ. “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.”2 Cor 11:12-15 (KJV)………….”For this cause God gave (up on) them up unto (and allowed them to indulge in their) vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that (just reward) recompence of their error which was meet (just and right). And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient…” Romans 1:26-28 (KJV)…. Any preacher who does not preach this Word is not a preacher of Father GOD… As the Bible says they are ministers of satan. You don’t get so big that you put your agenda above the Creator of man’s agenda cause He will knock you off your high horse.

  • William N Pee

    I think that Bishop Jakes or any Christian for that matter should just preach God’s Word and keep their opinon to themselves. Opinions don’t matter. Only God’s Word.

    • amostpolitedebate

      Isn’t giving your opinion on the bible basically a preacher’s entire job?

      • LoreneFairchild

        No….a preacher’s calling is to properly divide the Word Of God through sound Biblical exegesis. If a preacher/pastor has done that his opinion is formed from what the Bible says….”eisegesis” would be reading into the text what you would like it to say and it is the opposite of “exegesis”. T.D. Jakes is essentially practicing “eisegesis.

      • William N Pee

        No!! Never!! We are NEVER to give our opinion. We are servents serving the most hight God. God’s Word is the only opinion and authority. 2Co 5:20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: Ambassadors only speak the rules or mind of the country they represent (Heaven). Rightly dividing God’s Word and never taking it out of context. What He thinks is what we think. What He thinks He tells us in His Word. His Word is so simple, a child can understand it, if he or she has God’s Holy Spirit.

  • Bobbie Flowers

    Jakes replies are troubling to the true body of Christ. They do not reflect the Holy Bible. If he truly believe the Bible he would have spoken redemption Words…”Be you not (do not be) unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion has light with darkness? And what concord has Christ with Belial (the devil)? or what part has he that believe with an infidel? And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? for you are the temple of the living God; as God has said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore come out from among them (sinners), and be separate (from them…have no association with them), says the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you…(then and only then will Father have you as His child), And will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the LORD Almighty.” Compare what Father GOD says to what lying preachers/false prophets says, and be delivered from their lying tongues and cunning craftiness.

    2 Cor 6:14-18 (KJV)

  • amostpolitedebate

    Wow! That has to be one of the more enlightened and nuanced arguments I’ve seen a religious person make.

  • Annan

    “Paul spends a lot of time wrestling back and forth, trying to
    understand should a woman wear a head covering, should you cut your
    hair,” Jakes stated. “I mean, they grappled back then and we’re
    grappling now because we’re humans and we are flawed and we’re not God.”

    I think he don’t know what he talking about. Paul never grappled back then. You are grappled because your life is about your selfishness.

  • TLB73737

    “Evolving” evolving? evolving!?!?! Evolving!!!!???? Are you kidding me? Mr. Jakes, that is just plain sick.

    • amostpolitedebate

      Is it so wrong to occasionally reevaluate your opinions on things? Is changing your mind once in a while really such a horrible thing?

      • Oboehner

        It’s not man’s opinion that matters.

        • amostpolitedebate

          Considering the actions that can result from those opinions I’d say that man’s opinion matters quite a lot.

          • LoreneFairchild

            Not in respect to essential Biblical doctrine.

            Where the Bible doesn’t issue a direct prohibition there is a certain amount of liberty.

          • Oboehner

            Not in the grand scheme of things.

  • percykins

    I like how nothing Jakes said was for gay marriage, yet everyone in the thread assumes it is. Did you ever think about reading things for yourself and not just believing the headlines you’re told?

    • LoreneFairchild

      Maybe you should read it again?

      He’s basically advocating that people, including the LGBT crowd, find a church that tells them whatever they want to hear.

      • percykins

        And that says that he is for gay marriage… how?

        • That is not the real issue/point.

          TD Jakes has stated that he is “evolving” on this issue. That should give you a clue about where he stand so homosexuality.

          He is trying to conform with this sinful world

  • mbabbitt

    Betraying Christ and the Bible – and with bad arguments to boot. Cowards,

  • Nidalap

    Always someone who’ll make another Golden Calf on demand…

  • Darby C. Reger

    If this man is this confused about the Bible and truly thinks that there are churches (in a Biblical Christian sense) for homosexuals, he ought to flee his pulpit for the sake of the true gospel of Jesus Christ. But I’m never sure if I can trust the media to report honestly on what any person says, because the media tends to be money and agenda driven. Give us full quotations and let the person’s own words explain their thinking.

  • Eric

    least expected Jakes to take such a position on homosexuals, OMG!!!
    1 Corinthians 6:9-10, is clear on these forms of sins

  • eatmyazz

    all of the Christians are getting their panties in a bunch over a false God that doesn’t exist.


    • Tracy Hawthorne

      If he doesn’t exist then why do you care enough to reply! I would say you are fighting a battle you have nothing to do with!

  • Michael Penrod

    The church doesnt descriminate against people, but to say that homosexuality is acceptable in the church is nothing short of a bold face lie. The Bible nor God have changed. The aword of God says it is an abomination and it still is. The Word of God does not “evolve” to fit the so called “alternate lifestyle”. You can find “churches” that cater to gays and lesbians, unfortunately they are out there, but it is not a real church. A real church is one where God’s presence is there and the Holy Spirit has liberty. The Spirit of God will not dwell in a place that does not follow His word. You will see more and more false preachers emerge as the day of the Lord approaches. Mr Jakes is a false preacher. His words decieve not only his blinded members, but also himself. This is unfortunate that he would submit to the leading of satan instead of God. God is no respecter of persons, if you call upon Him and turn from your evil ways and take Him as your personal savior, you will be saved. You cannot be saved and be a homosexual. Its an oxymoron. You think the ACTUAL churches are being descriminative? Wait til Judgement day. You think the God of all. Is going to say”well ive evolved in my way of thinking about sin ” Sorry to disappoint you, but God is a holy God and hates sin. He loves the sinner, but hates the sin. He will say “depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you” and you will be cast out into outer darkness where there is weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth. Where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched. Keep up with pushing this “alternate lifestyle” and you will end up in this horrible place known as The lake of fire. Oh and btw, you may not believe in heaven or hell, but Im here to tell you, it is irrelevant what you believe, because they exist as well as God exists. Im only being blunt because I dont wish anyone to go to hell, but there are some that have hardened thier hearts and will noy hear the truth, God has turned them over to a reprobate mind. For this cause, they will believe a lie and be damned to hell fire.

  • LOL. Actually, I’m not laughing, but it’s funny and stupid. I should be.

  • GreerGarson

    Shocked, surprised and disappointed. When will God’s Word stay God’s Word? Sadly, for those who change, distort, twist and lead many people astray, they will suffer more severe consequences. I’m wondering if one of their boys are gay?! I seem to remember a story of one of them being arrested for exposure and it was around other men. You don’t hate anyone, but love them. You don’t agree with the lifestyle, but we are commanded to love and not hate. Loving does not mean accepting.

  • Mark Kigozi

    Its not false teachers but preachers who fear to articulate the truthfulness and absoluteness of the word of God to protect popular public perception of their church empires and protect their interests. The word of God will never and has never evolved. Its worldliness creeping into the heart of men.

  • mel

    Galatians 1:6

  • A person living in homosexual sin “will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven”. They will be denied entrance to heaven.

    If they actively, perpetually, and unrepentantly lives a homosexual lifestyle, the lifestyle of a thief, a greedy lifestyle, a drunken lifestyle, etc., it is not possible for such a person to be a Christian, and such a person will definitely not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

    • Sherry Embry

      When the Scripture says not to be deceived – it means to believe you are ok in these sins is to be in deception. The pure preaching of the unadulterated Word of God is the only thing that removes that deception. You will know the truth and the truth will set you free.

  • iselltoo

    All T D Jakes had to say is- The bible calls that lifestyle an abomination. So God is the judge on that issue-not me. As a preacher, I say what God says not what man want me to say. I have been bought with a price- the precious blood of Jesus. So if he Jesus is against it- so am I. Don’t like it- take it up with God-not me!

  • Dave_L

    ““Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:21–23, ESV)

    God only gave the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to true believers until the completion of the New Testament Scriptures, when that which is “perfect” (complete) came. [do an independent search on “cessation of the Charismatic Gifts” for both points of view.]

    So, the people Jesus never knew and are workers of iniquity would fall into the class of T. D. Jakes and other modern day Pentecostals, because of the type of works they do. “Prophecy” casting out demons, and “mighty works in his name”.

    Mainline historic churches do not do these things. So he is not talking about them.

  • smh, this man has been disappointing me progressively this year, what else is he going to say and do?

  • Liz G. Martin

    Genesis 2:18 -24 the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.” Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field. But for Adam no suitable helper was found. So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and closed up the place with flesh. then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. The man said, “this is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called woman, for she was taken out of man.” For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.???. Now read Romans 1:18- 2:16.
    From my Life Application Bible notes for 1 Timothy 1:10- “perverts” may refer to homosexuals. There are those who attempt to legitimize homosexuality as an acceptable alternative lifestyle. Even some Christians say people have a right to choose their sexual preference. But the Bible specifically calls homosexual behavior sin (see Leviticus 18:22, Romans 1:18-32, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11). We must be careful, however, to condemn only the practice, and not the people. Those who commit homosexual acts are not to be feared, ridiculed, or hated. They can be forgiven and their lives can be transformed. The church should be a haven of forgiveness and healing for repentant homosexuals without compromising it’s stance against homosexual behavior. AMEN ??

  • coldslaw

    Has the “evolutionary” process given birth to one child, i.e., in response to the command “to be fruitful and multiply?” That’s what I thought, until that happens, I’ll be holding onto Scripture.

  • slgwva

    Because as you all well know, you can’t get into Heaven unless you harbor the ignorance and prejudices of Bronze Age middle-eastern goat herders

  • justinoinroma

    Mr Jakes does not understand scripture

    • Nidalap

      My, you ARE being generous today! 🙂

  • FoJC_Forever

    T.D. Jakes has been pandering to feminism and using women for his personal promotion and financial desires for years. His “ministry” is built primarily on emotion and ear tickling. He lures the downtrodden into an emotional bubble, feeding their selfish desires to be important and special, only to lead them astray, away from Jesus (the) Christ.

    There are people who use being “full gospel” as a cover, just like those who dissect Christianity into “dispensations”. The foundations for the End Times have been being laid for centuries by Satan and his demonic host. While some look to the most despicable of human sinful actions, many overlook the demonic intention of what appears to be Christianity, but is nothing more than paganism and false religion masquerading as Christianity.

    Those who know Jesus will be pushed hard by the Devil, using various means, to get them to not only buy into homosexuality, but many false doctrines, both old and new. This has been happening for centuries, as I’ve already stated, but is increasing in intensity in the Last Days.

  • What a creepy false teacher! I always knew he was a phony, what with his prosperity gospel / Oneness Pentecostal heresies. But I didn’t think he’d go this far. What a gutless lover of the world. And how hateful to affirm people in their rebellion against God!

    • amostpolitedebate

      The prosperity gospel: Horrible and immoral*

      *When preached by someone who doesn’t hate gay people.

      • No, it is always horrible and immoral to preach the prosperity Gospel.

        And the truth sounds like hate to those that hate the truth.

        Romans 1:18–20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

        Romans 1:26–27 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

  • MomAA

    Jakes has been hanging out with Oprah Winfrey too much! He’s drunk off of the Oprah-New Age juice. On a serious note, God is just showing us who is for Him, and who is against Him. I don’t know how you can call yourself a Bible-believing Christian and deny God’s holy, righteousness Word. If people, like Jakes, really cared about the gay community they would tell them the truth, then lead them to the Truth (Jesus), who is ready and willing to save and change them. Now, that’s real love!

  • Elohim One Love

    Na, We as Christian people the WORD OF GOD( The Bible) has the last say.. Not preaches, not certain churches,not the media, not the President,God and God’s word has the last say.. The Word of God is the final authority of Christians in this world…The word says that homosexuality is an abomination and against God..While God calls us to love the sinner, but hate the sin. It doesn’t change what the word of God says…We are called to love the homosexuasl,but not to except homosexuality… Love the person, not the sin…

  • Sammy T

    The bible says that our purpose is to “glorify God”… our purpose is to make God look good…

    He is putting that mill-stone around his neck…

  • caesarjbsquitti

    A rainbow of truths that lie.

    Truth can lie, if you ignore some truths.

    100% of all children except Adam and Eve were born of mothers.
    100% of all mothers are women.
    100% of all children except Adam and Eve were fathered by fathers.
    100% of all fathers are men.

    How can we equate as equal to this a couple with not one woman or one man.

    Yes the law should give ALL couples rights and responsibilities, however these individuals discriminate against the opposite sex, for what sex is primarily involved.

    Research in Thunder Bay has discovered the link between LIGHT, the rainbow and half-truths and truth. You see a rainbow of truths while true, can lie. The research confirms the deception of Adam and Eve. Imagine that ?

    based on the book, “The Light; The Rainbow of Truths – The Jesus Christ Code”

  • Tyker Gonzales

    The church’s responsibility is to follow Scripture, to follow Jesus. The first words of Jesus’ ministry were, “Repent for the time of the Kingdom is at hand”….He went on to tell the woman committing adultery, “Go and SIN NO MORE”. If a church is of Jesus Christ, homosexexuals and other sinners are welcome, as we are all sinners, but it’s NOT OK to stay in our sin… we are to be BORN AGAIN living our lives for Christ, in His image… can’t knowingly participate in sin and be His disciple bearing good fruit.

  • Simon

    I attend Lakewood church in Houston Texas. Joel osteen being the pastor. our congregation is very diverse. We have very wealthy congrgants to homeless. Doctors and janitors. Our church is multicultural. Every Sunday I span the congregation and I see a rainbow of races. We often have many celebreties who visit. many famous athletes and actors. Last week a very famous gansta rapper dropped a song with one of Joel,s sermons interspersed. it has made quite a stirring in the hip hop community. Also our congregation has openly gay people attend. i sat by an openly lesbian couple and their family worshipping together. Now this has ruffled traditional Christians. My mother who attends lakewood has left becuase of this. She says Joel doesnot address the sin issue. My response is tne bible says the Holy Spirit will convict of sin. We are not the Holy Spirit .Let the Holy Spirit do His work. Today Joel is in San Francisco holding a major crusade at the large stadium there. I belive it is sold out. San Franciisco bein gthe gay capital of America recieves Joel with open arms . Why? Because he teaches hope, love and grace. Now many tradional Christians call him a snake oil salesman and charlatan whos only after money. Siply he’s not. so why waste your energy with hate making unfound statements. peace

    • Dave_L


    • BeccaJoe

      The bible is quite specific about allowing unrepentant sinners to remain in a congregation. If Joel Olsteen allows that at his Lakewood Church, then he is guilty of apostasy and he will answer for it at the judgment. That will be a tragedy, not only for him, but for those he has led astray with his “feel good” message.

      I believe he has a gift of oratory. But I believe he has misused the gift because he loves the adulation of man, and the wealth it has brought, more then being obedient to a loving but, just God.

    • Christina H

      Itching ears.

    • Jolanda Tiellemans

      Now you’re a christian I like. Heads off sir and to your pastor for being so open minded. A lot of ‘christians’ could learn a lot from you. You see people, because I don’t believe doesn’t mean I hate christians.It depends on your character, your attitude towards other people if I like you or hate you.

  • Ben

    As a pastor T.D.Jake’s will stand before the living God and give account for every word that has come out of his Pulpit and out of his mouth.
    You are either hot or Cold but do not be Luke warm you know how God feels about that.
    Gods Truth in Love.

  • Ambrose1963

    “Divide”, live separately, don’t try to influence those outside your group, follow your own destiny. Isn’t there a single word for all that? Oh, yeah: Segregation.

  • Martin

    he is devolved and devolving.

  • BeccaJoe

    Perhaps the Satanic church would be more to their liking since they believe in doing what is right in their own sight, rather then what is right to God. Our God does not “evolve”. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. He says Do as I will and all will be well with you. It is this that gives us assurance that His promises are faithful and true and will come to pass. And that what He says He means. TD Jakes god has him standing on shifting sands.

  • Elat

    So he’s leaving what the BIBLE teaches about sex and MARRIAGE for what the WORLD teaches. Yeah, that’s NOT Christianity. This social engineering and massive propaganda is working on all those who are not grounded in Holy Scripture. What these times are doing is really sifting out who is real and who isn’t.

  • Skeeter McClusky

    I’d like to hear T.D. Jakes actually saying this…not some “journalist” writing an article about something that might never have happened….

  • Reason2012

    He might as well have said “Unrepentant sinners should attend congregations that affirm unwillingness to repent and that politics do not need to reflect biblical ethics, adding that his position on open rebellion against God is both “evolved and evolving.”

    And it’s God He’ll have to answer to for causing so many to sin (stumble) because of his anti-God statements.

    James 3:1-2
    1 My brethren, be not many masters [teachers / pastors], knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
    2 For in many things we offend [cause to sin] all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

    Satan’s view on God’s truth also “evolved”.

  • GayEGO

    No one has ever heard Gods voice or seen his penmanship so expressions such as Gods word are meaningless. T.D. Jakes is moving in the right direction as he is being loving and inclusive which is common sense. We have brains that we should use to think and learn as civilization evolves.

    • Reason2012

      John 7:15-18
      15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, “How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?”
      16 Jesus answered them, and said, “My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
      17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
      18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.”

      • GayEGO

        These are words written by people that speculated what they thought, nothing else.

        • Reason2012

          How is it you know God never spoke to anyone, and never used prophets either to get His Word out?

          You don’t.

          You just believe it.

          It’s God we’d have to convince He never got His Word to anyone and that it was “every man for himself to do what’s right in their own eyes” where God is concerned.

          And it’s one thing to believe this, but to teach it would make you that much more accountable for all those who were fooled by it – their blood would be on your hands. I would think again.

          Acts 18:4-6
          4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
          5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.
          6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

          • GayEGO

            And you still continue to repeat what you have read or heard. I was brought up in a religion so I know what you have been taught or read. But the only thing about this that is true is that we are created with a brain and we should use it to think logically. The phrases you are using are just phrases written by people who guessed, like the world is flat and the sun revolves around the earth. People that think logically like scientists have proven many facts and these are the things that are relevant.

          • Reason2012

            So you cannot refute the fact that you do not know, that you only have that belief yourself, but pretend your belief is fact.

            I did not believe until much later in life. Many people I know were saved well into adulthood, never believing as a child. So your need to pretend people only believe because they were brought up that way is false.

            The Bible does not say the world is flat, or that the sun revolves around the Earth.

            The Bible is not meant to be a science textbook, but it’s full of facts they could not have known at the time and that scientists did not figure out until hundreds and thousands of years later, which also rebukes your attempt to undermine it.

            Scientific facts in the Bible thousands of years before scientists ever discovered them, when people could not have possibly figured such things out yet, which is more proof there’s far more to the Bible than just another “man-made book”.

            www .evidencebible .com/witnessingtool/scientificfactsintheBible.shtml

            1 Only in recent years has science discovered that everything we see is composed of invisible atoms. Here, Scripture tells us that the “things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”

            2 Medical science has only recently discovered that blood-clotting in a newborn reaches its peak on the eighth day, then drops. The Bible consistently says that a baby must be circumcised on the eighth day.

            At a time when it was believed that the earth sat? on a large animal or a giant (1500 B.C.), the Bible spoke of the earth’s free float in space: “He…hangs the earth upon nothing” (Job 26:7).

            3 Solomon described a “cycle” of air currents two thousand years before scientists “discovered” them. “The wind goes toward the south, and turns about unto the north; it whirls about continually, and the wind returns again according to his circuits” (Ecclesiastes 1:6).

            4 The great biological truth concerning the importance of blood in our body’s mechanism has been fully comprehended only in recent years. Up until 120 years ago, sick people were “bled,” and many died because of the practice. If you lose your blood, you lose your life. Yet Leviticus 17:11, written 3,000 years ago, declared that blood is the source of life: “For the life of the flesh is in the blood.”

            5 Encyclopedia Britannica documents that in 1845, a young doctor in Vienna named Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis was horrified at the terrible death rate of women who gave birth in hospitals. As many as 30 percent died after giving birth. Semmelweis noted that doctors would examine the bodies of patients who died, then, without washing their hands, go straight to the next ward and examine expectant mothers. This was their normal practice, because the presence of microscopic diseases was unknown. Semmelweis insisted that doctors wash their hands before examinations, and the death rate immediately dropped to 2 percent. Look at the specific instructions God gave His people for when they encounter disease: “And when he that has an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself even days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean” (Leviticus 15:13). Until recent years, doctors washed their hands in a bowl of water, leaving invisible germs on their hands. However, the Bible says specifically to wash hands under “running water.”

            6 Luke 17:34–36 says the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will occur while some are asleep at night and others are working at daytime activities in the field. This is a clear indication of a revolving earth, with day and night at the same time.

            7 “During the devastating Black Death of the fourteenth century, patients who were sick or dead were kept in the same rooms as the rest of the family. People often wondered why the disease was affecting so many people at one time. They attributed these epidemics to ‘bad air’ or ‘evil spirits.’ However, careful attention to the medical commands of God as revealed in Leviticus would have saved untold millions of lives. Arturo Castiglione wrote about the overwhelming importance of this biblical medical law: ‘The laws against leprosyin Leviticus 13 may be regarded as the first model of sanitary legislation’ (A History of Medicine).” Grant R. Jeffery, The Signature of God With all these truths revealed in Scripture,how could a thinking person deny that the Bible is supernatural in origin? There is no other book in any of the world’s religions (Vedas, Bhagavad-Gita, Koran, Book of Mormon, etc.) that contains scientific truth. In fact, they contain statements that are clearly unscientific. Hank Hanegraaff said, “Faith in Christ is not some blind leap into a dark chasm, but a faith based on established evidence.” (11:3 continued)

            8 At a time when it was believed that the earth sat on a large animal or a giant (1500 B.C.), the Bible spoke of the earth’s free float in space: “He…hangs the earth upon nothing” (Job 26:7).

            9 The prophet Isaiah also tells us that the earth is round: “It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth” (Isaiah 40:22). This is not a reference to a flat disk, as some skeptic maintain, but to a sphere. Secular man discovered this 2,400 years later. At a time when science believed that the earth was flat, is was the Scriptures that inspired Christopher Columbus to sail around the world

            10 God told Job in 1500 B.C.: “Can you send lightnings, that they may go, and say to you, Here we are?” (Job 38:35). The Bible here is making what appears to be a scientifically ludicrous statement—that light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech. But did you know that radio waves travel at the speed of light? This is why you can have instantaneous wireless communication with someone on the other side of the earth. Science didn’t discover this until 1864 when “British scientist James Clerk Maxwell suggested that electricity and light waves were two forms of the same thing” (Modern Century Illustrated Encyclopedia).

            There’s many more than this. We will be without excuse when we face God – forgiveness is available now, but will not be when it’s too late. You do realize the devil would do all he can to deceive as many as he can, do you not? Jesus spent more time warning about avoiding hell than about gaining heaven. Please think on these things.

            Luke 12.4-5
            [Jesus said] And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. “

            I would think again – it’s not me or anyone else you need to convince, it’s God.

          • GayEGO

            and on and on with the unproven hoopla of the dark ages. You really should learn and move into this century.

          • Reason2012

            And yet all those scientific facts in the Bible that scientists could not figure out until hundreds and thousands of years later prove it was those who would not believe in God that had to get out of the dark ages and figure out what God had made known thousands of years ago.

            It will be between each person and God – I can only point out the details. Please think again.

          • amostpolitedebate

            Why do so many Christians think that adding random bold text or capital letters makes their arguments stronger?

        • Christina H

          You obviously guard your homosexuality. Whatever it is you think you know carries no weight when your life is weighed out at the judgement seat. You will bow before God.

    • Christina H

      God’s word doesn’t evolve no matter how smart you think you are.

      • GayEGO

        I don’t think about how smart I am, I use my brain to think and it has worked extremely well. My lifetime partner of 53 years and I, married 11 years, have and are living very well. We are both retired and living the American dream. Being happy is a great thing and I do not see much of it in these groups. I do not know if God’s word evolves and neither does anyone else. but people that use their brains to think and learn do evolve. Those who don’t stay in the dark ages which is why they commit such atrocities, like ISIS.

    • FoJC_Forever

      I have heard God’s Voice, as have many others.

      • Emmanuel

        Me too

    • Dave_L

      “And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.” (Deuteronomy 4:12–13, KJV 1900)

      According to Exodus 12:37–38, the Israelites numbered “about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children,” plus many non-Israelites and livestock. Numbers 1:46 gives a more precise total of 603,550 men aged 20 and up.

      These all heard God speak the 10 Commandments.

      Ask the Jews, don’t just take my word for it…..

  • Just_A_Thought_79

    Every church may have a different opinion, but Christ had one simple opinion, it’s wrong, end of story. Once you get into the whole hypothetical situations that’s where you screw up. The bible is your rock, stand on it and don’t waver. If someone wants to do the whole hypothetical intellectual debate, don’t bite. Simply say, “I’m sorry, Christ said it was wrong, so it’s wrong.”

  • DUH

    Next thing you know, he’ll be supporting abortion. Shame shame shame. He’s become “too Obama” and much “less Bible.”

  • corybantic

    T.D. Jakes is simply holding on to his worldly needs instead of holding on to the truth. These are the shepherds in sheep’s clothing; they would much rather join in with the secular atheists than ruffle or offend. If the truth offends you Mr. Jakes, then stop being a preacher of Christianity.

  • Christina H

    WOW! The Bible is not opinion.
    “The church should have the right to have its own convictions and
    values; if you don’t like those convictions and values [and] you totally
    disagree with it, don’t try to change my house, move into your own …
    and find somebody who gets what you get about faith,” Jakes added.

  • Christina H

    NO one has to apologize for believing what God’s stance is on homosexuality or any other sin. Being politically correct is not in His language. He is the “correctness” and the compass we will all be held to, like it or not.

    “My Bible says, be attentive to individual
    needs,” Lentz told his congregation in a sermon, which was publicized
    by Huffington Post. “So I’m not gonna make polarizing political
    statements about certain things in our Christian community right now. No
    matter who says what, we won’t be pressured into giving blanket
    statements to individual needs. Never.”

    – Hillsong NYC leader Carl Lentz

  • oopoopadoo2

    The last days new word religion will be led by”Christians” like this. Satan has already been visiting strong well known Christian leaders promising them power if they will pour out a drink offering to him. Some are definitely selling out, something I cannot understand. They will have satanic power, but so will Christ’s Church!

  • Ruthie Morris

    I am extremely shocked and upset at TD Jake’s comments. He didn’t once say the Bible is very clear on the subject of homosexuality and the church needs to be very clear as well and our beliefs better line up with the Word of God! There are no gray areas in the Bible! It is all black and white or red and white. Anything that isn’t the Spirit of Christ is the spirit of the antichrist! I will pray for TD Jakes but I won’t purchase any more of his books and the books I do have I plan to dispose of. I don’t what that spirit in my home. God said homosexuality is an abomination! I am not passing judgment on gays, however, to confess a sin and fall short of repentance is invited the judgment of Almighty God to pour out on you. I will follow the example of Jesus Christ: Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner! ALL churches better be preaching and lining up their beliefs with the Word of God otherwise the Holy Spirit of God is grieved and will move out of that church. It isn’t a race issue. It is a SIN issue! The Word of God says many will fall away in the last days and we see that happening all over the place. God’s elect are not exempt from this happening. This calls to mind the scripture that reads, “The god of this world has blinded the eyes of those who do not believe the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ. Another verse says, “to him who is given more, more is expected.” TD Jakes has a mega ministry. If he continues to follow down this path, he WILL face a mega judgment!

  • asher

    The Word of God has not changed evolved or evolving. God explicitly said to be holy as He is holy.Jesus clearly spoke about sin.Jesus told the woman caught in a sexual sin adultery not to sin.He said he held nothing against.Paul spoke about sexual in the Church.He said to put them out of the church . individuals living in a gay relationship are in sin.they must repent or leave the church.Pastors must not deviate from God’s Word.If they do they are in sin.They stand accountable before God for themselves and those they see in sin and take no action to change the situation .they are deceived. Grace doesn’t give you freedom to deliberately sin.

  • Karen Williamson

    Another Pastor bites the dust….I was concerned when he invited Joel Osteen to speak at one of his events as Osteen is a “I don’t want to judge” preacher(motivational speaker really!) The Bishop will have blood on his hands for misleading so many to hell….

  • jennylynn

    “Many people grappled about head scarves” head scarves were a cultural issue. Sexual immorality is a moral issue that is NOT NEGOTIABLE. There are many that call themselves A CHURCH, but they make their own rules as they go along and compromise with truth. This is NOT the church of JESUS CHRIST, But an apostate church. I am not saying not to love homosexuals, but loving them is preaching the gospel,of repentance, not the gospel of acceptance. Jesus died so sinners can be saved from the bondage of sin, not return to the mire. If you live in sin then you have NOT REPENTED AND ARE NOT SAVED.
    Jesus said” unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Luke 13:3, 13:5
    Repent means to turn away from sin, have a change of heart and mind.
    He also said, why do you call Me LORD,LORD and do not do what I say. Luke 6:46
    Though this is saddening, Jesus said MANY WILL FALL AWAY.

    1 Corinthians 5:6-12
    6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? 7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

    9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.

  • FoJC_Forever

    It’s amazing how many people who are in also false sects claiming to be Christian will be against other false sects claiming to be Christian. Just because someone is against homosexuality doesn’t mean they know Jesus (the) Christ. Homosexuality is Sin, this is Truth. But many are just looking for a fight to define their otherwise empty existence.

  • Chris J. Malone

    Like he says at the end of his programs, “I want to get this book into your hands”. So then, why would he say something to offend the people to whom he’s trying to sell? For those people who are disappointed, that’s what happens when you take your eyes off Jesus and start making people your heros. He might not come down too hard on these sexual issues, because a family member of his was allegedly arrested for [allegedly] inappropriate behavior. So, he’s weighing a lot of things. Just pray when you get asked you can speak the truth of Christ, His Father and Holy Spirit. Selah!

  • Skye Winters

    I see my comment will not be accepted, because it doesn’t fit with your standards.
    Yeah just what I’d expect from bigoted Christians. They don’t want to believe
    that their precious book is wrong about homosexuality just like it was wrong
    about women being lesser than men, slavery, the Salem witch trials, and many
    other things I can point out. Christians such as hateful as all of you below
    are doing nothing more than condemning innocent people for something they
    cannot help, nor repent for. Want proof God doesn’t exist?

    Here’s ALL THE PROOF

    Comment pulled from a conversation I had with a radical Christian:

    Satan’s a kinder guy anyways. He doesn’t kill thousands like God does – in fact
    only 2 deaths have been recorded about Satan ever killing anyone-. Nor does he
    care who you love or what you do with your life. He doesn’t set you up with

    He never forsakes you at all. God abandons you if you take ONE step out of
    line. God is supposed to love you unconditionally yet when you don’t believe in
    him, no matter how kind a soul you are, he condemns you to Hell for it. Not a
    loving God certainly doesn’t love you without condition either. God condones
    rape marriages, slavery, child abuse, the innocent slaughtering of anyone who
    doesn’t bend to his whim. Sounds like something a psychopathic terrorist would
    do, no?

    Everyone says God has a plan, why would his plan be to have someone turn away
    from his and become an atheist and then condemn them? Fact of the matter is atheists
    exist and therefore God cannot exist for if he did his plan would make sure in
    no possible way you’d EVER turn away from him.

    So that concludes God already condemns a person to Heaven or Hell the moment he
    creates someone, because if he has a PLAN for everyone then there is NO free
    will at all. He already has a plan for you and if his plan is for you to turn
    away from him and then he sends you to Hell for it, he’s condemning you the
    moment you wink into existence and you’re fucking screwed no matter what you do.

    Insanity is doing the same thing but expecting different results. Keep going to
    church and keep praying but nothing will EVER change if you don’t get off our
    ass and be the change you want to see. Promote love and tolerance, not hate and
    bigotry. Stop fueling the fucking HATE! ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! HATE IS NOT AND WILL NEVER BE A VALUE!

    • ispeakout

      God says you know that He exists in Romans 1, but people exchange the truth they do know about God for a lie. The problem is not with God, but it is with us in that everybody chooses to and loves sin willingly. The wonder of it is that God does choose some to have mercy on undeserving people who could never be good enough to get to Heaven. His sheep will hear His voice, and He will not lose any who are truly His. God sent His Son to die a horrific death to take the place of sinners who don’t deserve it. All sin is deserving of eternal judgment, because it is against a perfect God & is against His perfect character. Jesus died for His sheep while we were yet enemies, so that those who repent and trust in His death & that Jesus rose from the dead will have eternal life as His children. That is amazing, and if you are one of His sheep you too will be forgiven and have a right standing before God. He will either be your Judge or your Savior and Father. Please visit my friend’s site Proof that God exists.

      • Dave_L

        Thanks! This is the Gospel, very rare nowadays…

    • Dave_L

      Why did God kill everyone except 8 people in the Flood? Why did He destroy Sodom and Gomorrah making it the lowest place on earth, the dead sea? Why did he destroy the Canaanites? Why does He send one nation against another in unending war? Why does everyone on the planet suffer and die? Why is he going to destroy by fire and replace the universe on the Last Day?

      It is because of sin. And that is why I would hope to reach you for Christ, the only way for salvation. Believe on Jesus Christ and you will be saved. He took the wrath of God on the cross in the place of all who believe in him and repent by Grace.

      • Jolanda Tiellemans

        Well you know when I was a kid and I did something wrong my ‘dad’ just gave me a good ass whooping and that was it. Your father in heaven punishes everyone with eternal fire. Sorry but I don’t want a father like that.

        • Dave_L

          There’s not much you can do to change things except repent. It is this; trust that Jesus took God’s wrath on the cross in your place, and that is your only grounds of acceptance with God, or perish. Repentance proves you really believe and gives you proof of your acceptance by God.

          • amostpolitedebate

            Why’d he have to kill his own son for it to happen? I’ve never gotten a good explanation for this. You tell us this story like it’s supposed to be inspiring but it just makes God come across as a mentally ill tyrant. Why would I want to worship that even if you COULD demonstrably prove his existence?

            Here’s an idea for God: Just change the rules. Suddenly now everybody get’s into heaven regardless of religious affiliation if you’re nice enough. That seems like a much more reasonable course of action to me.

          • Dave_L

            >”Why’d he have to kill his own son for it to happen? I’ve never gotten a good explanation for this.”

            Here’s my explanation;

            The Scriptures teach that God tested Adam as the representative of all of his descendants, under perfect conditions. If he failed under perfect conditions then all would fail if tested individually no matter the conditions. Adam failed.

            God punished Adam and all who he represented with spiritual death. Because of this death, we are natural born haters of God and others. Nor can we believe in God and desire to seek and become obedient to him. We will always hate what we can discern of him and construct an idol to worship instead.

            However, God in his mercy arbitrarily chose certain sinners to save. He did not foresee anything good in them since spiritually dead sinners can do no good. He left the others to perish in their sins. But God cannot remain good and choose sinners for salvation and not punish their sin.

            God became Man, a second Adam, in Jesus Christ. Jesus remained perfect under the worst test conditions as the representative of all God chose to save. After Jesus passed the test on his and their behalf He bore the wrath of God due to them. It was not for his own sins (he didn’t have any) it was for their sins. This was by crucifixion, shedding his blood on the cross to God’s satisfaction.

            Since Jesus paid the penalty for their sins they cannot be charged a second time to pay for their sins themselves.

            Just as God legally transferred the guilt of Adam’s sins to all, God legally transferred Jesus’ righteousness to all whose sins he paid for. God treats believers in Christ as though they never sinned, even though they can be from among the worst he ever saved.

            Because of what Jesus did, God saves these elect. In time he restores spiritual life to them. They call this being “Born Again”. This enables them to believe in Jesus and to repent from their personal sins. They now begin eternal life. All that happens from this point on works for their good, even death ushers us into fully experiencing eternal life.

            If you can rely on Jesus as your savior, it is because God saved you. The faith he gives a person proves to them the are Born Again and that He saved them. We could not believe otherwise.

            He says many times you’ll know people by their fruits, and the most characteristic fruit of salvation is that whosoever believes will be saved.

  • jennifer growden

    When you stand beside the “Whore of Babyl…” and pet her and do not totally disagree with her for polluting the Word of God and glistening and say, It’s O.K. go to another building, Wrong brother,Your money belt weigh’s heavy, and saint’s deceived, and Joel O., Wow!! Christian eye’s are opening’s, Amen, Glory to God! You mega C’s when you as a teacher in the Gospel should call for damnation if to dare cross the Lord’s doctrine, God has his eye on All preacher’s.

  • katz

    Yesterday, today, forever Jesus is the same.
    All may change but Jesus never
    Glory to His name!

  • Emmanuel

    May all the true God fearing, covered by the blood of Jesus and filled by the Holy spirit churches keep going strong. Don’t compromise or evolve away from God. Jesus is returning for a holy bride.

  • Jeanette Victoria

    He’s evoling himself right to hell Lord have mercy!

  • Harriet Bradley

    The Lord’s word on this subject has not changed. The Lord made man to love a woman
    a man, I Corinthians 6 list several sins that will stop you from inheriting the kingdom of heaven. Homosexuality is one of them. But it also says that the Blood of Jesus Christ cleanses you of those sins.

  • Mel

    “Every church has a different opinion on the issue” ….Thats what you call relativism and now it has seeped into the church

  • Winfred Neely

    The Bible, God’s word is the standard . The issue is not finding a so called church to confirm a lifestyle. The issue is the lifestyle such that God himself can approve it. From Genesis to Revelation, the Bible condemns same-sex sexual intercourse. The texts are not vague; they are very very clear (Lev. 18:22, 20:13; Rom. 1:26-27; 1 Cor. 6:9-11; 1 Tim. 1:10. From Genesis to Revelation the assumption is that marriage is between a man
    and a woman. Frankly, Jakes position is his opinion, but it is not a biblically based truth. We expect a preacher of his stature to give confused people a biblically informed and nuanced perspective of the issues of the day. On one of the burning issues of the hour, he has not done that. I am deeply saddened and disappointed. Granted, he lacks nuance sometimes in his preaching, but I expected more. Still, the Bible is my authority and not T.D. Jakes!



  • Verna Charter

    I don’t think he is saying that homosexuality is OK. He is just saying that they should form their own church, and Christians can still believe it is a sin. Each is free to believe as they want. However, I do believe this nation was formed on Biblical principles, despite what he said. Why did we have scripture engraved on our buildings, prayer in the Congress, even their own minister. The belief of separation of church and state, is what is silencing the Church. I hope he reconsiders. No body is forced to believe as Christians, and are free to believe as they wish, but, we should be able to openly pray and worship our God.

  • debaptist

    It’s very unfortunate when we can’t differentiate between personal opinion and the truth of God’s word. I will continue to live by God’s standard, let no Pastor no matter how mega his church is try to lure me into lawlessness. I truly pity innocent members of his congregation that will blindly follow him into this dark pit. Blind loyalty is nothing but a dead trap.

  • Tony Christensen

    2 Thessalonians 2:3New Living Translation (NLT)3 Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed—the one who brings destruction.
    IF this article is true, then it means that T.D. Jakes is NOT a TRUE preacher of GOD’S word. He is a false prophet and a liar.

  • Facts

    Time for him to vacate the pulpit.


    What a sick apostate.

  • Anyone who is popular and mainstream is not following Christ. Most of the Apostles were in and out of jail, publicly whipped, mocked and ridiculed for their Biblical beliefs. MARK IT DOWN….. if you see them on TV or hear them on the radio, they are PHONIES.

    If you want to hear REAL preaching, you normally have to find a small, Bible believing church with a fire breathing man of God behind the pulpit. If you see a real preacher on TV, it’s probably because people are protesting their ministry for preaching against homosexuality, (Lev. 20:13) or preaching that women ought to obey their husbands (Tit. 2:5), or preaching that Sunday school is unbiblical (1 John 2:27), or preaching any number of other unpopular Biblical doctrines.

    • Thisoldspouse

      “Anyone who is popular and mainstream is not following Christ.”

      This is why I’ve always been leery about trusting Billy Graham, who flaunts his “credentials” as a worldly ruler before presidents. We have seen in recently years how he has flirted with apostasy, even suggesting that Jesus isn’t the only way to God.

      • Yes, Billy “Balaam” Graham is of the devil.

  • Marilyn

    Church opinions don’t matter. All that matters is God’s Word. Period. There is no fence sitting when it comes to God’s Word. You’re either with Him or not.

  • fireart

    The church should be open to saints and sinners. That does not mean that sin should be acceptable. They say that homosexuality is a gene. If that is so is gluttony a gene? Is alcoholism a gene? Is beastiology a gene? Is Greed , Lust, Covetousness and Adultery a gene? No ! They are sin coming from a depraved heart. Man is degenerate from the fall of Adam and must accept Jesus to to be saved and change. All men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. If the church places any of these men in positions of authority it is no longer a church but a whore house. Solomon tried to appease the carnal beliefs of his wives and their Gods and how well did that work? Next the church will become P.C. and want to incorporate Islam believing all gods are the same. But there is one true God and his Only son Jesus through him we are saved and change , NOT change the church. No one wants to think their family might go to hell but they have a choice and no changing the church will save them.

  • Gina

    Mr. Jakes you can “evolve” all you want but God NEVER changes. He said a man that lays with another man as he does with a woman is an abomination, GOD said that effeminate ( homosexuals) will NOT inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, so you just go ahead and tell your side of the story,I will stick with God’s side of it. I don’t hate anyone at all but God said what he said and there is grace and forgiveness for all but you will have to repent.

  • fireart

    The Gospel does not evolve. The word of God is the same for ever. Compromising the word of God is making the church a whore house.

  • Gabriel OYEBANJI

    You that hates your brother, you that lied, and homosexual… It is all the same punishment of sin…SIN HAS NO GRADE…If you hate the homosexual… You’re getting into more trouble… Don’t hate those you tag as sinners… Instead, love them. That’s the only way to change the world.

    • Sherry Embry

      The answer is not showing love alone. The truth must be spoken in love. Truth has to be proclaimed for sinners to come to repentance. You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free. God chose the foolishness of preaching to convert the sinner.

  • Ruf

    I don’t see a problem with his statement. This nation is not a Christian nation and there are churches that affirm the LGBT community. Whether those are biblically centered churches is another issue. He never said his church was one of them. He is encouraging the LGBT community to find one of those “churches” and let those that believe otherwise do so.

    • Sherry Embry

      He says churches have a right to their own convictions and beliefs. That is subjective truth – whatever seems right to you personally. His own convictions not those of Scripture. He fails to mention how these things will bring judgment on a people or nation.

      • Ruf

        Churches have always been able to have their own convictions and beliefs. That’s why we have so many denominations and among baptists, the autonomy of the local church. Let me ask you, Can a person believe that Jesus was raised from the dead and simultaneously believe that it is ok for the govt to sanction gay marriage? I personally don’t see where the latter cancels the former.

        • And you do realize that false teachers and false doctrine exists? The bible warns people about this.You better watch out.

          Not all “churches” are Christian. For instance, there are some phonies out there preaching that Jesus is not the only way.

          • Ruf

            Judaizers who add requirements to salvation exist also. You are basically saying that if someone doesn’t agree with you on this political issue they are not a part of the body of Christ. You need to pray because you don’t know the difference between the U.S. and the church, between faith and politics.

  • The LightHouse Fellowship

    I have had my doubts about him and this just affirms it.

  • Matt Farias

    TD JAKES knows better then Jesus who is his Creator!!!
    This scum of faith, going to rewrite the Bible is he?
    Every Gay person is different as per this scum!!!
    So in his Bible he says this… does he?
    Gospel of Matthew Chapter 19

    When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2 Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.

    3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife(Husband if he is a gay or wife if she is a lesbian) for any and every reason?”

    4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female, (Also made male and male and female for female)’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife (or husband if he is gay or wife if she is a lesbian), and the two will become one flesh’[b]? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

    7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away( Or husband if he is gay or wife if she is a lesbian)?”

    Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives(or Husbands if you are Gay) because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife( or gay partner,) except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman( or another partner if he is gay,) commits adultery.”

    10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife,( or gay couples) it is better not to marry.”

    11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

    Why would Jesus heal a Eunuch if it was ok to be Eunuch!!
    If JESUS can heal a Eunuch, does this scum has enough Faith for Homosexuals to be restored or does he has the Guts to say, Potter has the authority to make two Vessels, one for his glory and one for to pour out his wrath and show his power, unless they are willing to become Normal.
    If Jesus called a Samaritan a Dog, and if her faith could change the curse and get restored to be equal with others, are we willing to be normal like others with our faith!!!

  • rdrift1879

    “Paul spends a lot of time wrestling back and forth, trying to understand should a woman wear a head covering, should you cut your hair,” Jakes stated. “I mean, they grappled back then and we’re grappling now because we’re humans and we are flawed and we’re not God.”

    Sounds to me like he is clearly rejecting Apostolic authority. Paul isn’t grappling.

  • And people are shocked? I knew that man was off the chain when Jumping the Broom came out. He has promoted sexual iniquity and is causing a stumbling block to so many. Lord help us stand firm in love.

  • Martin Walsh

    Brothers and sisters, one good aspect of the controversy over homosexuality and biblical sexual ethics is that it exposes the compromisers and false teachers. In their need to be “culturally relevant” they open their kimonos for all to see their nakedness. Jakes is one such false teacher. Even more egregious though is his modalism and denial of the trinity.

    • Thisoldspouse

      The controversy also sharpens our wits and critical thinking skills about the issue, and flexes our faith when we are opposed for standing for the biblical position on homosexuality as a particularly wicked sin.

  • Donna West-White

    I just hope TD Jakes stays with the belief that God created Man and Woman to become as one, not Man and Man and Woman and Woman. To be a believer of God is to know that he created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve.

  • Julianna Hilbert

    I really like the practical way T.D. Jakes approaches this. Everyone who attends a church usually finds one that believes the same way they do because (*shocked face*) they don’t all believe the same thing! There are many MANY different denominations, all segregated into their own beliefs about God. Why is this? How can they all be right? And if they aren’t all right, how can they be called a “Christian Church”? How can it be said that the members of one church are following God if some of their beliefs are wrong according to another church?? The only way is because everyone is on their own journey. Beliefs come from the kind of family/church one was raised in, or the sort of friends one hangs around, or from past experiences, or from personal searching. There is NO ONE who has the absolute truth and if one claims they do, they are sadly wrong and arrogant. So the fact that Jakes is saying that the LGBT Christians should find a church that believes the same way they do is really just allowing them to do what WE are already allowed to do.

    • BeccaJoe

      Denominations have different views on certain doctrinal issues. An example of the doctrinal differences would be whether we should worship on Saturday or Sunday, and does God really care. Should we tithe or not tithe. There are pre trib, mid trib and post tribulation rapture believers, etc. But moral teaching is a different thing entirely. It should be uniform in all Christian churches. Adultery and homosexuality are both clear sins in the bible and all denominations should embrace that. To do otherwise is to be in a state of apostasy.

      • Julianna Hilbert

        ^^^and that is your belief. The Bible is also “clear” on not getting a divorce, slaves respecting their masters, women wearing head coverings, and beating children with rods. Or so some may say…. 🙂

        • BeccaJoe

          Divorce is still a sin for all reasons save one, adultery. The bible hasn’t changed on that. Head covering and corporal punishment falls under the doctrinal.

          I’m not sure why you are bringing up “slaves respecting their masters”. Is there a Christian denomination in America that teaches that we should bring back slavery? Indentured or otherwise? Both are horrid but what the bible regulated was indentured servitude which is where a man sells himself into slavery.

          • Julianna Hilbert

            I only brought these up to show how things that are “clear” to one person in the Bible may not be so clear to another, or may mean something entirely different. Those viewing from their own beliefs or experiences or studies may see things differently than you have stated. You have responded well – according to YOUR beliefs. It is not my place to judge another’s journey, for it it theirs, not mine. God cares for you much more than I ever could, so I let him decide your next step in your journey. As i do in others. Who am I to get in the way of what God is doing in their lives?

          • Julianna Hilbert

            I only bring up these things to show how some things are “clear” in the Bible to some and may mean something totally different to another. There are some that may agree to what you said above and some who do not. But according to your belief, you are accurate. Each person has their own journey. And God cares about and guides each person within their own journey. Who am I to interfere?

          • Julianna Hilbert

            and BTW, I just went through a divorce from an abusive husband/father. So I guess I am a sinner in your eyes. (But I’m okay with that because it’s your journey and I pray God guides you in the direction he wants you to go.) 🙂

  • something fishy

    the church doesnt set the way to heaven the Bible does, not the way your were raised, your friends, or past experience. Jakes is a pathetic hipocrite. Gay people should find a church with other gays but the bottom line is homosexuality is an abomination in the Word of God period

  • maxine

    If this article is accurate, Jakes is guilty of steering gays down the wide path that leads to destruction.. Today it is not difficult to find a church which will affirm their lifestyle and tell them what they want to hear.

    2Ti 4:3For the time will come when they will not endure sound
    doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves
    teachers, having itching ears;
    2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    Who has the greater sin – the ones who practice homosexuality or the ones who encourage and endorse it?
    Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the
    lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between
    Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    An honest scientist never manipulates the observations or data on the universe; likewise, a true servant of God never manipulates God’s Word or endorses the sins which God had condemned. This man is just another destructive false teacher with a filthy spirit of the day instead of God’s Spirit. Don’t listen to false teachers; read the Holy Bible and obey God and live.

  • JnnyBGood

    Seems he is looking for a a way to get as many people to pay into his “system” as our system of government. Once you get past thinking America is a Christian nation – excuse me – I meant to say once you get past thinking TD is Christian pastor, then his words are much less disturbing. Destiny as following dreams? I am sure there are many souls in hell whose dreams were pursued with great passion but turned out to be nightmares.

  • aliceinwonder

    Indeed, pastors were central in how citizens chose their ways, but we did have senate and congress 50 years ago. Our founders who signed the declaration were either pastors or from family with clergy. It was a pastor’s JOB to keep people on track so that this gov’t would not fall from a Constitutional Republic. This is why it was so important to remove God from the schools, etc.

  • Roni On Fire

    The Word of God does not “evolve.” Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. (Hebrews 13:8) One word for Mr. Jakes ~ REPENT.

  • Joan Rogers

    There are many false churches these last days, many wolves in sheep’s clothing, declaring a false doctrine and gospel/ They do not Know God nor His Holy Word…Dare to defy God and His Holy Law The Holy Bible…you will stand before Him on judgment Day, Beware.
    There is only One true God and One true and Holy Word of God.Man’s opinions not in line with the Word of God is a lie, they are false teachers/prophets tickling the sinner’s ears, leading them straight to hell and not to God through Christ.
    Never Ever go by man’s word, But According to God’s
    Word alone.
    Churches are not always correct on the Word of God.
    Know God,Know His Word Do Not Be Deceived in these last days.

  • kbs55

    God’s first command to man is in Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
    28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
    Homosexuals do not reproduce, they recruit

  • The man never ‘came out’ for homosexual marriage. The headline is a lie.

    • But he did state that his position is “evolving”.

      How can you “evolve” this position? The bible is clear about homosexual sex.

      • I can tell you I’m evolving too. I know more and more that homosexuals need love and friendship first, prayer, and understanding if we can ever help them to know the truth.

        • Thisoldspouse

          A “love and friendship” that affirms them in their sinful lifestyle doesn’t spawn understanding or repentance. That is why many churches are apostatizing now, because of this “welcoming” and “loving” mindset.

          • I didn’t say anything about affirming them. Welcoming into church, yes. Affirming them, no.

          • Thisoldspouse

            We shouldn’t “welcome” just anyone into a congregation, only believers and earnest seekers, not militant wolves seeking to disrupt the brethren and harm the vulnerable babes in Christ. I think that street/lifestyle evangelism is where real sowing and reaping should take place. Where we got the idea that we should welcome every unrepentant rebel into the midst of the fellowship of believers is beyond me.

          • Anyone who comes to church and sits respectfully and listens, whatever their belief, is welcome. If they are willing to hear the truth, they are welcome.

          • Thisoldspouse

            You’re not understanding that these people are accepted as active members in many churches without renouncing their homosexual activism. This is what I’m talking about. And it happens all the time.

          • I do understand that. Those churches who embrace homosexuals in their sin are apostate. My church is a true church. If a homosexual wants to hear the word of God, and respectfully sit and listen, that’s okay for me.

          • And you won’t find ANYONE who is more of an outspoken opponent to the militant homosexual agenda then I am.

          • Thisoldspouse

            Glad to hear it.

      • amostpolitedebate

        You “evolve” by treating gay people the same way you treat people who have been divorced. You realize that some things may be sinful but ultimately don’t hurt anybody. So you let them be and interact with them politely, leaving the judgement of their souls to God.

  • nugeme

    Fraud, huckster, deceiver, blasphemer. He’s no more than the wind blowing. Let every man be a liar, and God be true.

  • DNelson

    A voice of sanity. How refreshing.

    • What sanity? Homosexual sex will always be a sin like every other sin

      • DNelson

        The sanity of understanding that there will be things that will be legal under our Constitution that may not be accordance with religious beliefs. The sanity that in order to ensure the freedom of each of us, we must each accept that there will be times in which others will choose to express their freedom and liberty in a way that we may not agree with. The sanity to know that we must support the legality of citizens doing things that we may not agree with from a religious perspective lest we put our own freedoms and liberties at risk.

        That sanity, Giselle.

        • Homer for God

          It’s not God’s law though. It never will no matter how much man’s law “evolve”. We pray that one day you will find that more important before it’s too late for you.
          God Bless

          • DNelson

            You are certainly entitled to your beliefs regarding “God’s law”, but unless you are God, Homer, you cannot say with certainty what God’s laws are. Are you God, Homer?

  • Bulkster “The Upvote god”

    Thomas Dexter Jakes has lost his mind. No we aren’t God. He’s right about that. But there is no room for “evolving” when it comes to His word. We either stand on it or we don’t. There is no in between.

  • margery moncrieffe

    I am saddened by this from T.D. Jakes, and I have noted his silence for a long while on this issue, or, when I listen to his sermons lately they are more like motivational speeches. I wondered if he himself has struggled with this same issue, but even if you have, we cannot change the word of God and make it situational, or personal.The Bible has not changed, we do not condemn the sinner we condemn the sin. As God’s people we are called to uphold the Standard.

    Homosexuals can cohabit, can live their own lives but when we legislate this lifestyle and say two people of the same sex can marry we are no longer in trouble with man, we are in trouble with God,.If Sodom and Gomorrah did not escape G

    od’s wrath, how will America?

    • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

      America will not escape God’s Wrath.Judgment is coming.

    • amostpolitedebate

      You guys keep saying that [X] will bring about God’s wrath and it keeps not happening. I’m starting to get impatient.

      • Eduardo Esteban Estes

        I think you automatically assume that it will come all at once. We are living as a country now with the consequences of the choices we have made. In debt to the point it will cripple the country, socially divided and saddled with a corrupt administration and Congress. These are the consequences for Americas choices.

        • amostpolitedebate

          Didn’t the debt exist well before gay marriage was legalized? Also, the debt has actually been going down recently. Does that mean God actually approves of gay marriage? How do you decide what Bad Things are caused by God and what’s just coincidence?

          • Eduardo Esteban Estes

            I am not talking about JUST homosexual marriage. Our society has killed babies by abortion to the tune of 70 million and we have watched as they have been parted out for money. That and homosexuality and the killing of babies are just the big sins. Bad things are not necessarily caused by God as much as he allows the natural consequences of actions to happen. That is a judgement also. The debt is near 20 trillion and rising. You must be speaking of the deficit. If it is smaller it is just a smaller rate of increase. Not a reduction.

  • James Norris

    To many meeting at the white house with Obama, He picked up Obamas homosexual spirit, I will never watch this man again a complete let down an he better repent..

    • Thisoldspouse

      It’s amazing that Christians didn’t have more discernment about Jakes many years ago. Why should THIS have been the back-breaking straw?

      • James Norris

        You said years ago exactly what about him years ago did you not like, I watched him preach against a Homosexual spirit many times an never heard him deviate from the word until recently are you saying you felt something was wrong spiritually?

    • amostpolitedebate

      Obama’s gay now?

  • Bruce Brown

    I think he is awesome , however Homosexuality is not a “lifestyle” but one of the variations of biological sexuality. When are people gong to stop referring to it as a lifestyle?

    • Thisoldspouse

      Wrong, it’s a deathstyle. Completely impotent to recreate life, except for deadly pathogens.

      • amostpolitedebate

        Couples that can’t procreate for medical reasons: Contemptible Godless monsters.

  • Lawrence Johnson

    I’m disappointed in a lot of what I’m reading here. How can you all be so narrow minded? Can you not see that your judgments are not valid? Even God evolves in the Bible. From a jealous wrathful Lord, to our loving Savior. Yet, today we have so many of us Christians stuck in our own ways of thinking, believing that stagnant sets of mind are fine. We’re supposed to love and extend ourselves to one another for support. We are not supposed to be here judging others and making ourselves out to be better than anyone else. We’re supposed to have Jesus Christ in our hearts, and love like Jesus loved, but instead I’m seeing judgment, hypocrisy, and inhumanity to be honest. I’ll pray for all of you that seem to think your ideals on making parts of society outcasts from Christ’s love. Not because I think I’m any better or because I’m judging but because I would love for God to open all of our eyes and hearts because we as Christians need to accept that we all need to grow as individuals and as a church.

    • Dave_L

      “For I am the LORD, I change not; Therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.” (Malachi 3:6, KJV 1900)

      “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines…..” (Hebrews 13:8–9, NKJV)

      “And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” (Luke 24:47, KJV 1900)

    • BeccaJoe

      You have embraced worldly compassion. God has not “evolved” from wrathful to loving. He has always been loving. And He is still a God of wrath. He is a holy God and He demands that His children be holy too.

      We are supposed to love each other. But it is not Christian love to excuse that which we know is sin in order to avoid hurting the feelings of those enslaved to sin. That type of “compassion” will only help to keep people blind to the true God and ensure that they will be separated from Him for eternity.

    • Thisoldspouse

      We are “narrow minded” because God says the way is narrow, and few find it.

      If you find yourself in the social majority, you are likely on your way to hell.

  • Prophetess Christina Asher

    i don’t see where he says he is for gay marriage???? its interesting to me all the comments now decrying Bishop Jakes the title of the article is misleading he does not say he is for gay marriage???READ PPL READ

    • Dave_L

      “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.” (2 Peter 1:20–2:3, ESV)

    • You obviously need a clue. The real issue is not about him literally saying he is for gay marriage. That is not the point

      T D Jakes has stated that he is “evolving” his position on homosexuality.

      What is there to “evolve” about? He is seeking to conform with the world

  • Harry Oh!

    “The church should have the right to have its own convictions and values”

    What about what the Bible says? According to this apostate, anything goes and all one has to do is find a church that will condone their debachery. Nice.

    • Kenneth Hall

      heres the whole thing in a nut shell,the god of this world (satan) is deceiving people into believing that all those alternate l;ife styles that are clearly against GODS teachings are okay and that is a lie strait out of the pits of hell for GOD said they changed the truth into a lie serving the creature (satan) instead of the creator (GOD) working and doing those things that are unnatural men burning in their lust one for another,women doing that which is unnatural toward one another lesbians,not only that but have pleasure in doing those things that are clearly and obomination against GOD.The danger of not standing up weather you are a Christian or a preacher for if you are born again you have a calling to stand for GODS truth and not compromise HIS WORD because if we do nt tell people the errors of their ways GOD willrequire their blood on our hands.Here is the danger of homosexuality GOD tells us if they don’t get out of that situation and repent and stop doing it HE will turn them over to a reprobate mind that means they cannot be saved that’s how dangerous it is ,their is a point of no return for ree and apostasy carry the same penalty.

  • I’m waiting to see what Donnie McClurkin will say about homosexuality in the church now that some of these preachers are becoming more liberal in their views.

  • Smh progressive/liberal “Christianity” is the most dangerous force on the planet.I had a feeling T.D. Jakes was a sell-out.He is a coward if he thinks he should be changing his position.

  • Frankie Lee

    The church should have the right to have its own convictions and values;..Jakes

    Me:Jake didn’t say anything which was obviously wrong.The Church have said it,Homosexuals shall not inherit God;s Kingdom,and the Bible declared…Gays are abomination,for all of them shall be doomed,unless they repent.This is Church’s conviction and Values,and it will not change.Those who approved of same sex marriage,should be evolving to what God had said,and will finally become the same stance with God and with Christians.

    Because no matter how one evolves,it is always to the truths,and should be to God;s Words.

  • Frankie Lee

    “Every church has a different opinion on the issue”

    Me: No matter how different their opinions may be,Christians will not sell their soul to the opinions of Satan.Since God declared Homosexual acts is sin,cast one into the Lake,all Christians will support God’s Words,place Faith in God’s Words.Unless,one like to be another Judas Iscariot.

    • Amen

    • amostpolitedebate

      So why don’t you follow the Gnostic Gospels/Book of Mormon/Koran? Aren’t those books divinely inspired as well?

      • Frankie Lee

        I believe only the Bible.

        • amostpolitedebate

          Why? Weren’t the Gnostic Gospels considered biblical cannon until some committee decided that they didn’t count anymore? Please explain to me as an outsider why I should pick your books alone over all of the other options available.

          • Frankie Lee

            Demons are around.If you cannot see which is the copy of God’s words,its your choice.

          • amostpolitedebate

            This may surprise you but from outside the Christian faith the Bible itself can look kind of demonic, what with all the verses telling people the proper ways to beat and sell their slaves. What makes you so sure that these parts weren’t added by the Devil or something?

            For that matter why do you assume other religions texts are demonic and not just mistaken? Buddhism seems like a pretty chill religion if you ask me.

          • Frankie Lee

            the proper ways to beat and sell their slaves. ..

            Me: Do you know Americans another evils, were… making lies?

            If the Bible verses fit into your description,your type of version,I would have burn the Bible long time ago!

            Take an example of Trump,the Hooha today.Some GOPs and 60 % of the medias told lies,and Erickson,Carly,Huckabee,Walker…and lots of people,they don’t know anything about…””blood in her eyes””,comments on Megyn Kelly by Trump.

            Do you know,they bought into the deceits that…it was reference to Megyn’s period?

            What about “”Blood in his eyes””,comments on Chris Wallace also by Trump?

            Even BBC thought that Trump was referring to Megyn’s period.

            Do you think, a man,Chris Wallace would have menstrual cycle/periods?

            Do you think the Bible actually taught people to beat slaves?

            Jesus told us to ONLY believe in Him.The rest of the religions are 100% false and demonic.

            Jesus gave humanity no other alternatives,because there is none….If you don’t believe in Me and My Words,you shall surely die.Jesus is the only Saviour of your soul,from Hell fires.

          • amostpolitedebate

            It’s not a lie though?

            “When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. ” (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

          • Frankie Lee

            Why the owner of slaves strikes his slaves?In Singapore,maids are hanged,caned.

          • amostpolitedebate

            I’m not following you. What does the treatment of maids overseas have to do with whether or not slavery is condoned in the bible?

            And to bring our discussion back on point: Is that quote holy or demonic? How can you tell the difference?

          • Frankie Lee

            Do you think Slaves get beaten for no reason?Do you think maid get beaten for no reason?

            The quote was holy.Moses wrote,a tooth for a tooth.This is the most fairest system our world had ever seen.

          • amostpolitedebate

            How about a system with no slavery? Also how was this system fair to the children of slaves who were only enslaved by circumstance of birth?

            To answer your question though, YES I think these slaves were often beaten for no reason. I can say this with confidence because such abuses were rampant in quite literally every such system to have ever existed. That’s just what happens when people become property.

          • Frankie Lee

            So you appreciate God for putting a system,list out the Ten Commandments,and instruct all the Jews to love one another?

            So you appreciate God for entrusting us Christians,who is the one who abolished Slaveries?

            Obviously God don’t like Slaves,which was why Moses led the Slaves out of Egypt,saw their sufferings.And to free Slaves,was God”s idea,and Christians obey God and freed Slaves.

            We had done it.

          • amostpolitedebate

            Objectively wrong on all fronts. Though I find it odd how fast you went from making a biblical case for slavery to taking credit for its abolition.

            To answer your point though God only cared about slavery when it was HIS people that were the slaves. Did you not read the quote I posted earlier? If god really had a beef with the practice the only rule would be “don’t do it”.

            Furthermore, while many abolitionists were Christian many more were using passages like the ones I posted to justify the institution.

            Also I don’t appreciate god at all as I am an atheist. Not sure what your point was there.

          • Frankie Lee

            God cared for His own children,is normal,decent and fair.They have the priority.Since when God do”‘slaveries””,when God is the One who oppose it?

            You don’t appreciate God who rescue people out of Slaveries,and you dislike good people,that is your problem.

            Who is making a case for slaveries,?when Slaveries is shunned,and to be rejected by Christians?

            Does God care for other people who were in slaveries?God has been telling us to feed the poor,love our neighbor,do good deeds,tell sinners to repent of their sins,be good,and get saved through our Lord Jesus Christ,who is a saviour.

            You knew next to nothing about the messages of God?How long have you been brainwashed?

          • Frankie Lee

            this system fair ..

            Me: The parents who were slaves can make decision not to perpetuate descendants down the line,or to seek free dom from Slaveries.

            The children being enslaved by circumstances,and that is a fact,so don’t bring babies into this world.The parents who were slaves wanted their kids to be in that circumstances,its their choice.The kids had no say,but the parents has.

            Slaves were ill treated,so the Scriptures, and Christian is the best helper.God value every human souls,and God told us to love our neighbor as ourselves…treat human with respect.

          • amostpolitedebate

            Side note: I find it very interesting that no Christians have come out to argue against you. One would think they’d be all over you for justifying slavery in Jesus’s name.

          • Frankie Lee

            Who is justifying for Slavery?In those days,Slaves were bought and sold.It was a practice during the apostle days.Many Slave owners became Christian,so Paul urged them to treat their slaves properly,be kind to them,and love them.

            So Paul also admonish Slaves to obey their master,because they were already slaves.

          • amostpolitedebate

            Why did he not advocate for an end to the practice instead?

          • Frankie Lee

            God of course wants an end of all sufferings,not just slaveries,which is why Jesus came to REDEEM us.God ends the practice,by asking the cooperation of human beings,to obey him,and walk in righteousness.

          • amostpolitedebate

            But did he ever ask us to end slavery specifically? That’s kind of a big oversight.

          • Frankie Lee

            What are brains for?Does God need to micro manage us?You mean you needed specifics in order to do things?How unfitting to say it as over sight.

          • amostpolitedebate

            “God need to micro manage us?”

            He sure seems to do so in most other areas. Particularly things related to our private sex lives.

          • amostpolitedebate

            Also you didn’t answer the question. WHY is slavery no longer ok? And why can we not expand that same reasoning to the inhumanity treatment of gay people.

          • Frankie Lee

            Slavery has been never been OK,for God created man to rule over this earth.It was Satan who wants human to be slaves,and he succeeded in its evil works.

            Since Slavery place human in sufferings,Jesus came to liberate them,free them,love them all.

            Christians are told to treat human being with dignity and respect,and compassion.Who told you that we treat Gays with inhumanity?

            God reveals that Gays act are sinful,its wrong,just like Stealing and making lies.God told us the order of things,but Satan rebel against God and pervert it.Why should we listen to ill advise,and the one who seek to destroy us?

          • Frankie Lee

            WHY is slavery no longer ok.

            Me: God created man,to be free and rule the earth,not to be rule by the Devils or other masters.Slavery is a bondage,and Jesus wants it to be broken,set people free.

          • Frankie Lee

            God’s Laws to Moses was clear.They must be Righteous.

            Why would a Righteous Owner need to beat up his slaves?
            They murder,kill,cheat,and did things against God”s Law,so they would be punished.

          • amostpolitedebate

            OK, so just so we’re clear:

            1) Slavery is both a moral practice and condoned by God.

            2) it is morally and biblically acceptable to beat your slaves to death as long as they are bad people and/or did something immoral.

            Am I understanding your position correctly?

          • Frankie Lee

            1) Slavery is permissible under the circumstances of that period of time,not a moral practice,nor it is God””s perfect will.

            2,The owner already owned the slaves,so the owner has every right to decide.Moreover,it is required that Owner must love the slaves as himself.

          • amostpolitedebate

            1) Please tell me where in the bible this shift in attitude takes place. Ah can we not take a similar (“that only applied back then”) approach to homosexuality?

            2) Beating a woman to death is acceptable as long as you own her and feel affection towards her. Got it.

            Are you suuuuure that part of the bible wasn’t put in there by Satan?

  • Winterkin

    All you sad Christians judging yet someone else. People long for eternity when they get bored on a rainy afternoon. You’re sad, sad, people. The Bible indeed says homosexuality is a sin. And so is eating shrimp. In the same part of your Bible. Yet you choose to ignore that at Red Lobster on a Sunday afternoon. Either follow it ALL or put it away, but you can’t call this man out when you are ALL doing exactly the SAME but judging yourselves righteous. He sounds intelligent which is more than I can say for most of your comments.

    • BeccaJoe

      Eating shrimp is not now, nor has it ever been a sin for Christians. It was part of the dietary laws for the Jewish people.

    • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

      Gentiles can eat shrimp. Although I won’t eat it . I don’t like seafood. And It sounds like you are also Judging Christians. How (((((((((((((((sad)))))))))))))))) 🙁 Poor little you.

  • Aaronaaa

    This is why you should never follow man. Be a follower of Christ. People are flawed and are subject to the deception when they depart from the Word of God. Christ has not evolved on this issue. Neither should we. And for those who claim Christ never said anything on this subject, they demonstrate their ignorance of who Christ is. The wisdom of God is the wisdom of Christ. You can not separate the Word of God (Old and New) from the wisdom of Christ for they are one and the same.

  • Thisoldspouse

    Jakes just has $$$$$$ in his eyes. What a heretic.

  • Rebecca Sander

    These comments crack me up. People who are so ready to execute homosexuals are always the same people who can’t wait to comment on anything. “Homosexuality is a sin”. Well, I’m sure that is likely true. And none of you people are fat? Or stink? Or talk too much? Or work too little? Or spend your money on yourself (or your “church”) while your neighbor is in need? Thank God we have you and all of your responses in our comments sections to show us the Way.

    • Thisoldspouse

      Yeah, nice “hey, look over there” diversion.

      Typical homosexual tactic.

  • Matti

    The discussion should be about malicious false reporting of Christian News. I listened to the interview in its entirety and this article is misguiding and twisting of what was said, but resonates with those who are haters.

    Before you buy into anyone rhetoric, the wisest thing to do is find out what is true. What was said. They are counting on the uninformed to remain misinformed.

    What Bishop Jakes said about evolving. Evolving…a better understanding. Evolving from believing this is a Christian nation and everyone would embrace and live by our beliefs). To understanding, we are a republic/democracy and public policy would reflect the views of the diverse people it governs. Not an endorsement.

    Bishop Jakes e was in possibly one of the most if not the most liberal
    environments/platforms. However, it was the Pharisees of our day who erroneously reported the interview as an endorsement of LGBT.

    Huffington Post clearly did not see it as an endorsement because they wanted to revisit
    the conversation again in the days to come because it fell short of the endorsement they sought. The question he was asked was admittedly tricky. ” Can the church coexist with LGBT community?”

    His response: Sure. Go find someone that believes what you believe but don’t try to come into this house and try to change what we believe. The church has the right to believe what it believes. I think he masterfully navigated treacherous waters.

    The interviewer was clearly trying to bait him to say he had evolved in his
    interpretation of the scriptures on this matter…looking at the
    scriptures in a new light…a shift (drawing a comparison between slavery.) His response: society may change but the Word does not change. For us, the fundamentalist, it will always be a theological discussion not a social one
    To distort the facts to malign a pastor you do not like is just plain wrong. The gullible fell for it hook, line and sinker.

  • Matti

    The discussion should be about malicious false reporting of Christian News. I listened to the interview in its entirety and this article is misguiding and twisting of what was said, but resonates with those who are haters.

    Before you buy into anyone rhetoric, the wisest thing to do is find out what is true. What was said. They are counting on the uninformed to remain misinformed.

    What Bishop Jakes said about evolving. Evolving…a better understanding. Evolving from believing this is a Christian nation and everyone would embrace and live by our beliefs). To understanding, we are a republic/democracy and public policy would reflect the views of the diverse people it governs. Not an endorsement.

    Bishop Jakes e was in possibly one of the most if not the most liberal
    environments/platforms. However, it was the Pharisees of our day who erroneously reported the interview as an endorsement of LGBT.

    Huffington Post clearly did not see it as an endorsement because they wanted to revisit
    the conversation again in the days to come because it fell short of the endorsement they sought.
    The question he was asked was admittedly tricky. ” Can the church coexist with LGBT community?”

    His response: Sure. Go find someone that believes what you believe but don’t try to come into this house and try to change what we believe. The church has the right to believe what it believes. I think he masterfully navigated treacherous waters.

    The interviewer was clearly trying to bait him to say he had evolved in his
    interpretation of the scriptures on this matter…looking at the
    scriptures in a new light…a shift (drawing a comparison between slavery.) His response: society may change but the Word does not change.
    To distort the facts to malign a pastor you do not like is just plain wrong. The gullible fell for it hook, line and sinker. So sad.

  • ed houston

    Wow, what a disappointment. I guess the Bible is true about putting your faith in a man. The Bible warns us about a wolf appearing to be a sheep. Bishop Jakes congregation will not decease, it will probably increase (can’t we all just get along). The Bible is crystal clear on the subject. I don’t have to give the verses because any pastor worth his salt will know the verses I’m talking about. The Bible is not a political book, It is a Book about the Word of God, which is truth. The Word of God is clear about what God thinks about homosexual behavior. It doesn’t mince words or give you political double talk about it. A true man of God will tell you exactly what God’s Word states. God in His word states, “I change not.” Meaning it can be a difference about whether one wears different material on their body, as opposed to the behavior one practices.These next few years will become harder and harder for Pastors, Bishops, Reverends, Evangelist, etc. God will weed out the men and women that stand for, and represent His word, and the ear ticklers. Homosexuals, and proponents of same sex marriage around the world are standing up and cheering for Bishops Jakes, claiming he has finally seen the light, or maybe just the emperor’s new clothes.

  • Shortyndallas

    After viewing the HuffPo, this article is inaccurate. A result of opinion journalism, which has become most information on the internet.

  • Paul Williams

    All of you that are freaking out should remember that huffington is very liberal and instead watch the video. His comments were cherry picked in this article. He never said he agreed with homosexuality or that practicing homosexuality is acceptable. He encouraged those who believe it that practicing homosexuality is ok… to find a church that reflects their views and not “come into my house and change it”. He also stressed that regardless of social ideas, the view inside the church has to be founded on theology and not sociology. Don’t just read someone’s interpretation of what he said… listen to what he said in context.

  • Ralena L Burgess

    Another wolf in sheep’s clothing?? How sad that false teachers will lead so many astray.

  • Tracy Hawthorne

    Love the sinner, never except the sin!

  • Jay Citylights

    Yall mad he didn’t flat out say it’s wrong. Why? Unlike most on this post the man said he’s not God & he’s seeking God’s wisdom on the subject…I.e. Evolving. Evolving doesn’t have to mean he accepts it, it could and seems here to mean he’s not just going to be closed minded about it.

    As the article states, he’s speaking of lgbt men & women who are seeking the Lord & a place of worship. Just bc some ppl believe all lgbt persons are deviant doesn’t negate that there are plenty who desire and foster a relationship with God. It is only through that relationship that understanding can be gained.

    Just bc you read the word doesn’t mean you understand the word. We ALL have to pray for that understanding. Even Peter didn’t have the same understandings as Paul on things. People act Iike everyone always agreed on the Word. If you read the Bible/other religious texts not included in the Bible, you will see that people didnt. Jakes referenced Paul and how he struggled with some of the laws. Indeed he did. Ask yourself why? Paul wasn’t even a disciple yet he’s one of the most celebrated persons in the Bible and if even HE had to allow his mind to evolve to gain a higher understanding, how are most on this post so quick to be so critical of what Jakes said?

    Don’t be so silly to say one Word, one book, one faith bc if that were the case we wouldn’t have Methodist, Baptist, COGIC, etc. it would be ONE CHURCH and it’s not bc we are human and have our own understandings. Face that fact. Religion gets too in the way of our focus on Gods love. I swear it does.

    • Josey

      I understand what you are saying but the Word of God is clear on this matter, there is no need to try to understand what is right or wrong here and a minister of the gospel should already know his standing on the matter, he should be mature in the Lord Jesus who is the same yesterday, today and forever. Mr. Jakes does know what Jesus teaches about this subject just as well as he knows what characteristics a bishop needs to have to minister as taught by the Lord through Paul, Mr. Jakes has clearly stated to all where he stands on it.
      We as children of God don’t evolve to accept what God has already said is sinful, we are called to obey Jesus not man. God never changes, we have change going around us all the time on this earth but God is constant, He’s constant in the storms, He’s constant and unchanging , there are no seasons or time with God, He is the beginning and the end.

  • Jay Citylights

    foolish if you think when God returns he’s going to say “ahh but there’s this really big sin you committed and its bigger than the rest so to hell you go.” No! He’s going to look over all of our lives and if you stole candy every day, hated your neighbor, lied all the time–you’re sins are NO different than the “sin” of homosexuality. Tell me where I can find the various levels of sin in the Bible…please. (Excluding blasphemy) You can’t!… bc these silly levels have been created by man.

  • Rick Nelson

    this guy has always been about the money…no ethics

  • Mel

    Be not surprised everyone. Once a man like Jakes reaches a certain platform then he must keep everyone happy to stay on top. He has crossed over into mainstream (i.e. oprah winfrey, etc) which means he must appease those outside of Christianity as well. Men like Jakes are more concerned about their own ambitions than sticking to the truth contained in the word…and thus show a lack of concern for the souls of those that he leads…but I still believe there is a remnant that will stand for truth and I refuse to be taken away with this culture..why? Because cultural assumptions and values change and nations fade away. If America were ever to cease to exist, His word will continue to stand. Only the weak in mind shifts their convictions to remain in alignment with an “evolving” culture. Only the weak allow mere men to take them away from whats true. Only the weak allows themselves to be carried away with new and deceitful paradigms that perverts the gospel.

  • Veronica Martin

    The only right we as Human have is to give our life to Jesus, these
    wicked spirits is leading many man and woman to hell, and this is why the Bible said the Kingdom of God is not in word but in the power of the Holy Spirit, lets cast these devil out of people, so they can freely worship God!

  • Mel

    “Paul spends a lot of time wrestling back and forth, trying to understand should a woman wear a head covering, should you cut your hair,” Jakes stated. “I mean, they grappled back then and we’re grappling now because we’re humans and we are flawed and we’re not God.”..this shows his utter lack of understanding of the scriptures. First of all there is no way to tell that Paul grappled with the issue, second God’s view of homosexuality is quite clear from Genesis to Revelations, thirdly, then how in the world do you equate head coverings with the issue of homosexuality???

  • Veronica Martin

    What is the church? it is not a building, the church is the person and for God to dwell into UNCLEAN person heart,as the holy spirit he will not if one live into sin, and think it is ok, this is why the true church is going to revel in these last days. I dont care how much money one have Jesus is coming, and many will be in hell crying, life is eternal, and hell is eternal, God love is eternal and anything outside is fake.

  • Sunny D

    The great falling away has become an avalance. Look up for our redemption draws near.

    • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust


  • Thomas Glass

    I agree with God on this matter. The Bishop was not preaching but doing an interview. I believe that we as Christians think that other Christians should always point our fingers at the sins of others and ignore the bigger picture that we face in this culture that we live in. Sinners are going to sin until they repent. We, the church, can’t make them repent, only God can do that. We must love them into the Kingdom with wisdom and kindness. Some of us are too religious to do that so we just stoop to being very critical of anyone who doesn’t say things just the way we want them to. I refuse to be critical of Bishop Jakes but rather pray that God uses him to open the eyes of those who are still bound by sin in all it’s various forms. We spend too much time attacking each other instead of lifting up each other. We may not always see things the same but we can work together to advance the Kingdom of God until Jesus comes.

  • jimminycrickets

    There is one Bible. There is one God. They do not involve Oprah, TV or Book sales. This will not end well for this dude.

  • Aaronaaa

    Joyce Meyer once said that when she began to see explosive growth in her ministry the Lord spoke to her spirit and told her something that put the fear of God in her. She said the Lord told her in so many words not to take the anointing, gifts and exposure that he is giving her lightly because the same number of people she can help, an equal number of people she could hurt.

  • Isaiah Ware

    I think that dancing around the issue is not who or what God called us to be. All wrongdoing is sin and from my understanding they all but one can be forgiven but we are not to pat homosexuals on the back and say that’s ok. Alot of things that were considered wrong in the old testimony was over ruled by Christ. Like eating swine , Jesus said it’s not what goes into a man that makes him unclean but what comes out of him. As far as whether or not a woman should shave her head I do not believe whether she does or doesn’t will altar her place in eternity. That was actually Paul’s on personal view , The Bible does not say that a woman shaving her head is a sin , but it does say for one man to lay with another is a detestable act in the eyes of God. If the church is supposed to stand on The word of God and The Word is clear on that subject what church should affirm a homosexual lifestyle ?

  • James Norris

    I just want to point out as some are trying to make a case for things such as hair cutting rules being broken , You need to know in some cases the writer points out it is only his opinion as are some other scriptures an not inspired of God to be forced upon everyone, You have to read carefully to know the difference,.Do you really think God would demand you keep your hair a certain way..No it was the writers opinion only..

  • Marie

    TD Jakes has turned his back on God, not surprising we will be seeing all the Mega Churches do this Why? because it’s all about how many people they can draw to their sinful church and more money in their pocket’s they have sold themselves out to Satan and his lies, the bible clearly states that homosexuality is an abomination! God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Now the one world religion begins, Lord come quickly!!!

  • Lester Peoples

    Yes, Churches can have their convictions, but God? ? Jesus will build His church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it so then do man made denominational groups have More power? I think Not! Gods Word is as He– is, the same today–yesterday and forever! God doesn’t grade on a curve, on Holiness! There is no half/child of god!

  • ponder

    A little leven levens the whole batch. I have been looked down on for not falling all over this dude. To me he was obviouse. Jesus only not believing in the trinity tells me he looks into the Word of God without pure motives. That is my thoughts, belife, and feelings.

  • movements like this is what is killing the meaning of religion….!

  • I think the title is misleading, because it allows one to believe that TD Jakes represented the views of church were changing with respect to LGBT community and position. More issues were discussed in this video, than the title of this article represents.

    By the way, I believe TD Jake’s interview was very enlightening, and I enjoyed it, even though I am not a proponent of religion. He is a wonderful speaker and mentor outside of the construct of religion.

  • lifeofjoy

    Your report is false. You should have more integrity than to operate in twisted half-truths in the manner of secular media.
    Here is T. D. Jakes’ response:
    “My comment on HuffPo TV drifted into issues of the Supreme Court
    ruling and changing the world through public policy verses personal
    witness. Further, I have come to respect that I can’t force my beliefs
    on others by controlling public policy for taxpayers and other U.S.
    Jesus never sought to change the world through
    public policy but rather through personal transformation. All people
    didn’t embrace Him either. That’s what I said and what I meant ….
    Nothing more and nothing less.
    Just because a so-called Christian publication chooses to
    misconstrue my words using lazy journalistic tactics to further their
    own agenda and draw attention to their site does not make their
    statements an accurate depiction of what I said or meant.
    Do not take everything you read online or hear repeated as truth. When
    asked about the “black church” and its role in ministering to gay
    people, I briefly mentioned (we were running out of time) the word ”
    evolved and evolving” regarding my approach over the 39 years of my
    ministry to gay people who choose to come to our services.
    I simply meant that my method is evolving — not my message. I was
    SHOCKED to read that this was manipulated in a subsequent article to say
    I endorsed same sex marriage! My position on the subject has been
    steadfast and rooted in scripture.
    For the record, I do not endorse same sex marriage but I respect the rights that this country affords those that disagree with me.”

  • Daniel Moore

    My comment on HuffPo TV drifted into issues of the Supreme Court ruling and changing the world through public policy verses personal witness.

    Further, I have come to respect that I can’t force my beliefs on others by controlling public policy for tax payers and other U.S. citizens.

    Jesus never sought to change the world through public policy but rather through personal transformation.

    All people didn’t embrace him either. That’s what I said and what I meant …. Nothing more and nothing less.

    Just because a so-called Christian publication chooses to misconstrue my words using lazy journalistic tactics to further their own agenda and draw attention to their site does not make their statements an accurate depiction of what I said or meant.


    Do not take everything you read online or hear repeated as truth. When asked about the “black church” and its role in ministering to gay people, I briefly mentioned ( we were running out of time) the word ” evolved and evolving” regarding my approach over the 39 years of my ministry to gay people who choose to come to our services.

    I simply meant that my method is evolving — not my message. I was SHOCKED to read that this was manipulated in a subsequent article to say I endorsed same sex marriage! My position on the subject has been steadfast and rooted in scripture.

    For the record, I do not endorse same sex marriage
    but I respect the rights that this country affords those that disagree with me.

  • Haddis

    I don’t get what is going on in the mind of our ministers. Shouldn’t they stand for the biblical truth? Who are they to advocate the madness of those who are against the word of God and their nature? Our ministers are advocates of holiness, righteousness, justice, love. Of course they should never hate homosexuals but homosexuality. Come on people of God, saying or opposing any life style that is against the word of God, it doesn’t mean it is descrimination necessarily. We must support traditional marriage, which is between man and woman.

  • Zardrell Mcknight

    TD Jakes was a false prophet anyway, so this is no surprise. He’s a mason, he did the casting of cares ritual. he is satanic. his soul isnt of God. He was never a man of God.

    • Where did you read that? I agree, he is more interested in selling his prosperity books like Olsteen and Murdoch rather than offering words of correction from Scripture.

  • I think Jakes needs to watch the Truth Project. He assumes that our nation can exist as a lawful society without Christianity being intermingled. Question: Were does our national laws for right and wrong come from?

  • Quincher Glock

    Like so many others in this FOUNDED CHRISTIAN NATION, TD Jakes needs to repent! And i dont care who he is and how much money he has, he needs to repent and return back to his first works.

  • brucefl56

    He should be taken of TV and the Christian stations immediately.

  • Hanakokolele

    Pastor J.D. have made the decision to walk way from God’s word in his decision to support the sin of homosexulity. This is the last days, and there will be some that will walk away
    from God’s word. Yes God is love, absolutely!. But God is also a “Holy” God. HE will not allow His love that His Holy character condemns. God calls homosexuality a “detestable sin”. Soon, very soon, Jesus Christ will return in the “clouds” to whisk all born again Christians to heaven in the Rapture of the Church. Those that are left will be in the “Great Tribulation” , an event of God’s wrath on a Christ rejecting world.

  • W Mark Broughton

    Not churches based on the Bible. The opinion of man is irrelevant to thee Holy scriptures.

  • Buster Spiller

    I started reading these comments and eventually had to stop because this article is posted on a Christian site. Bishop T.D. Jakes position is distinctly his and to write him off as a spiritual heretic is akin to judging him which the Bible is CLEAR believers are not supposed to do:

    “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”

    I live in Dallas and when I was still part of the Christian faith, I attended Bishop Jakes church one time. Nice experience but a bit too large for me.

    But I will say this about Bishop (he’s one of the “few” professed religious men I feel comfortable using a religious leadership term in describing him): people may attack him but you can’t MATCH his ministry efforts, which are biblically-modeled and mandated:

    “For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me
    something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you
    clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to
    visit me.”

    Under Jakes’ pastoral leadership, The Potter’s House has ministry in a number of these biblical sanctioned areas, including: a counseling center with one-on-one, group and marriage counseling; housing programs for single parents and senior citizens; a woman’s ministry that assists abused women; a homeless ministry; substance abuse ministry; a respite care program for caregivers and individuals dealing with Alzheimer’s Disease or dementia; AIDS ministry; job fairs to help people secure gainful employment; and prison ministry to assist ex-offenders with re-entry into society.

    With all of the vitriol leveled at Jakes on this thread, I think it is fair to ask each and every dissenter what have you done as a Christian to push the gospel forward? It is easy to spew theology handed down to you by others but to actually walk as Jesus walked is a different matter altogether.

    Any person with average intelligence can read beyond the provocative title and see CLEARLY that Bishop Jakes did not come out for gay rights and LGBT churches. He stated is quoted as saying the issue of homosexuality is “complex” and that if a person who is LGBT wants to go to church, they should find a church that caters to them.

    He did say he was evolving on the issue of homosexuality but his responses were fairly incoherent, not definitive, more like thoughts of a person trying to understand a subject because it is contrary to what he/she believes and/or have been taught. He wiggled a LOT and that’s perfectly fine.

    I think what Bishop Jakes has discovered and is wrestling with is the bible views homosexuality as a “toevah,” which simply means a cultural prohibition, something that is abhorred in a culture. This prohibition was a driving force in passages you find in Leviticus.

    I’m sure Jakes had to ask himself why Jesus never discussed the issue negatively, including his post-divorce discussion he had with religious leaders nor his miracle intervention with the Roman Centurion and his “slave.” That has to weigh heavily on a person when your entire life you’ve been taught one thing about a subject. But I applaud him for making the effort and journey.

    If Bishop came out for anything, it was for a clear separation of church and state, in which his statements were more coherent but still had hesitancy in them.

    So everyone can CALM DOWN and repack your religious hatred, hatred that keeps people away from Christianity, the church, and for some, God. The condescending piety I see reflected on this post is further confirmation for me regarding exiting the ministry in the 90s and eventually leaving the faith two years ago, opting for true spirituality with God rather than a man-made institution.

    • Welcome to the true church- the Body of Christ. I do attend a non-denominational , Christian fellowship where the Word of God is preached/taught occasionally. Your point is well taken- remember the not forsake the gathering together one with another. You are obviously an intelligent, thoughtful and spiritual man. regarding judging, I believe the admonition not to judge is directed primarily at hypocrites (Mt 7:5) because later in scripture, under proper conditions, we are told that a spiritual man judges all things (I Cor. 2:15) and for us to even judge righteous judgment(Jn. 7:24). Scripture identifies four type of hypocrites for us: the worldy one(Mt. 23:5), the legal one(Ro. 10:3), the evangelical one(Mt. 13:20,21) and the enthusiastic one(II Cor. 11:13). We must judge if we are being treated justly and measure a response accordingly. Its by their fruits we shall know them. We are to separate ourselves from the spirit of the world/worldly ways, sinners and evildoers all requiring judgment of others actions and intents. One thing we must not judge, that being a person’s heart concerning salvation; that alone is clearly left in the hands of the one true judge of all things, Jesus. It is also obvious that we are not to usurp God’s place as judge in any way; also to pass rash, unjust , uncharitable and needless judgments. Godspeed Brother, keep the faith.

  • Gabriel

    Somebody please tell me… If America is not a Christian nation but “neutral” as is being suggested now, why did the drafters of the National Anthem deem it all important to enshrine the words “…In God we trust”? and also in the pledge are the words “…One Nation Under God,..” up in the gallery of the congress chamber is the image of Moses… and I can go on and on… I think the nation has deviated from the truth and the earlier we admit this and call a spade a spade, the better for us all.

    • Gabriel-good name by the way. All the founders were well read in the bible-the main teaching book of the day. Most were men of faith. The first colonies were mostly Christian-Puritans who were escaping the tyranny of the Church of England which was “the” church of state. Christopher Columbus’s voyages were based on his belief that he was going to find the promised land- he was a very pious Christian. Thousands of Spanish missionaries came to the Americas hundreds of years before the puritans with estimates that they converted and baptized millions of Mexicans and Indians establishing missions in modern day Florida and California. The 1st Amendment to the Constitution gives us the freedom to exercise our religious beliefs. YES! YES! This was, is and in my opinion, always will be a Christian nation, contrary to what revisionists want to tell us. Current legitimate polls show by a vast majority(80+%)of Americans still identify as Christian-case closed as they say. God Bless You.

  • OlivertheSchnauz

    “Bishop” TD Jake has OFFICIALLY left the building! and I mean, he’s left the church that Jesus built!. When are these once anointed men of God going to realize to be FRIENDS with the world means you are an ENEMY of Jesus….So sad, pray for him

  • GodsGirl

    No T.D Jakes your wrong….we must not find a church tht lines up with our views but with Gods views…with Gods Word…lgbt..straight…murderer..adulteress. ..liar…slanderer..what ever your sin of choice is. ..we dont go looking for a church that appease our sinful nature & desires..we seek God tht he plant us in place tht He resides in ..where His word is taught & demonstrated…where deliverance from these things is available. …where correction (in love) takes place… this is where we shall grow like a cedar of Lebanon & flourish like a palm tree planted by the waters. At the end of the day we must learn to coexist with the ppl …not the sin…this is the reason tht Jesus came to cleanse us to heal us to set us free from sin…not so we can learn to live peacefully with it (if we cld do such a thing anyway). I pray the many ppl tht follow you take hold of the word of God & hold on tight so tht they not be deceived by this evil tht invaded Gods territory.

  • Frankie Lee

    TD Jakes seem not matured in the Lord.

  • In the Spirit

    What’s evolving is his bank account.

    No man should have a “Mega Church”.

  • Gary B Dotson

    The apostasy is not only here, but it is in our faces…!

  • Vincent Vin

    …White liberals rule the black community via proxy.
    If you can even call these places communities.

  • Love Teresa

    You’re a big joke T.D, Jakes and a coward. There’s no other way to interpret what the bible has to say about homosexuality. It’s deviant sexual conduct and in some passages it says they aren’t even to be allowed in the church along with other abominations I might add like adultery and fornication. But God hasn’t changed and He won’t be changing for any progressive society that wants to soothe their conscience while they have anal intercourse with their gay lovers. It’s filthy and the sickest of perversions.

  • Arise O Compatriot!

    This is sounding like another gospel. Lord have mercy.

  • mike

    I am shocked and surprised listening to a man known as Teacher of the gospel saying such a dirty and doctrine of demon. What is evolving about the gospel? Civilization, education,science or anything you want to call it does not in any way change the gospel of Christ.

  • VicterMaitland

    1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;.

  • Gabriel A. King

    TD’s got snake oil in the back of his wagon….

  • Danielmormon

    The family as ordained by God is central to the happiness and salvation of mankind.You cannot make moral what God has decreed is immoral.Jakes has been listening to false and demonic teaching from hell, contrary to sound doctrine and practice. The LDS church will not budge one inch in our definition of marriage, no compromise! We have compassion on those who are trapped in perversion, but compassion cannot give birth to license or agreement with sin . NO COMPROMISE!

  • Black Conservative

    Notice “he” evolved and it what “he” believes. Guess what TD its not about you! It’s about what God says. You have no authority to change Gods word. You will only bring condemnation on yourself preaching a gospel of hat is not from Jesus Christ. We want people of all sin to be in church and to hear the message but to be accepted in the kingdom of God and to inherit eternal life all must repent. There is no other way.

  • Jovan Ivey

    Well he’s a business man with a plan that no dinner will get in the way of. Many people will be mislead and everyone who says lord lord will not be known to God. That is what it is. People of God will Hera his voice our obedience will keep us from everlasting hell it a choice. Good luck! The kingdom awaits.

  • The Professor

    Pergamum: Yet I hold this against you: You have held to teachings of traitors, ate food sacrificed to idols, committed sexual impurity, etc. You are leading (encouraging even) people away from the teachings from Jesus and moving people toward idolatry: putting created things before the creator (to be interested more in the temporal than in the spiritual). This leads to immoral behaviour.

  • Davelly4

    Sad to hear of another big influencer in the church just settling or is it “evolving”? And as many have already done, play the “Christian Nation” card in an attempt to redirect or find fault elsewhere rather than addressing the issue biblically by calling it what it is in God’s eyes…sin (period)

    “The church should have the right to have its own convictions and values; if you don’t like those convictions and values [and] you totally disagree with it, don’t try to change my house, move into your own … and find somebody who gets what you get about faith,” Jakes added
    In other words, find a church that interprets the Bible in a way that fits or “affirms” your sinful lifestyle(s)…Really? Every church should be an expression of their culture/community but doesn’t have the right to pick and choose what works for them or others attending (even though it’s happening) but rather the responsibility to teach and “correctly handle the word of truth” (2Tim. 2:15) and allow God’s Spirit to do the rest. Those are the true “convictions and values” for God’s Church that will never change nor are they “evolving”.

    Jakes said that he thinks homosexuals should find congregations that affirm their lifestyle.
    Churches should NEVER affirm a lifestyle or any other action or behavior that, according to biblical truth contradicts God’s divine plan and purpose for righteous living, relationships and the marriage covenant. The Church should always lovingly accept and welcome people for who they are as God’s creation living in a lost world but not accept nor affirm a lifestyle, action or behavior contrary to His heart. Love the sinner, hate the sin.

    If God’s Church (at large) and especially it’s leaders continue to shrug their shoulders on the big issues contributing to our broken world, people will remain lost, broken and without hope.

    Thank God His Church is still the Hope of the world and it’s about time we let the world know that with greater love and Kingdom impact.

  • Benedict Pondo

    Yes, God did not create them as homosexuals.

    It was their choice. God gave the power of choice to mankind.

    After correction, I believe they can choose to change. The choise is theirs.

    The pastor at that church should be the first one counselling the couple to change. Yes, God hates homosexuals as it is an act of immorality

    • amostpolitedebate

      By change do you mean change the feelings they get when they look at other people of the same gender? Or do you just mean that they agree to change their behavior? Because when most Christians talk about this issue they act like they’re talking about one when they really mean the other.

      • Benedict Pondo

        When I say change, I meant to allow that person to come to realise his/her gender and follow God’s command to be fruitful. Same sex cannot be fruitful, you know that.

        • amostpolitedebate

          So do these therapies change people’s feelings or not?

          To answer your point though, you can get quite a lot from a same-sex relationship. You can even have children if you’re willing to adopt or get a surrogate.

  • pablocruize

    “‘Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molek, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the Lord.

    “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.

    “‘Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.

    God via Leviticus 18

    For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

    Jesus via Mathew 5

    (Is “evolving” mean child sacrifice and bestiality will soon be OK, Dr. Jakes?)

  • Jericho willis

    I really wish people stop making gay an issue Especially in the church. You people spread so much hate and justify it with the word of God. Or a scripture. Then all indirectly spread hate by saying love the sinner hate the sin knowing that that’s not Evarts truly in your heart is really sad that people have gotten so caught on religion that they’ve lost sight of wgat God is really about and what his purpose was. How do yall expect to change and anybody when you’re making ppl scared, and uncertain about what your motives really is.

  • Shine Bird Muhammad

    When there is no standard there is no
    rule or code of ethics and that’s not even natural. If you thrown an apple into the air, it will fall.

    • amostpolitedebate

      Which is why you shouldn’t throw apples in a crowd. Hey look! I just made a rule without relying on the bible!

  • Howard Pitt

    This is what happens when Preachers choose popularity over principle.

    Just to clarify for those who may be confused by Jakes’ position.

    (1.) An anti homosexual stance is not necessarily a pro religious position. There are none religious organizations (NARTH for example) which also agree that homosexual behavior is not normal.

    (2.) Governments are not compelled to serve God (they are advised to) but that does not invalidate God’s position. God’s position is right, whether we accept it or not. Moreover Governments should not enact public policies based upon a lie. The argument about individuals being born homosexual is totally false and has no scientific basis for it.

    (3.) The Church is not evolving on doctrinal issues. The teachings of the Apostles are the foundation on which the Church is built. Any move away from those principles is a move from under the protection of the High Priestly Prayer (Jn. 17) prayed by our Lord. The Lord did not pray for us directly. He prayed for us as we willingly follow the teachings of the Apostles.

    Finally, Jakes made one suggestion that I support wholeheartedly. Do not stay in a Church that you do not agree with. Those members of Jakes’ Church who still love God; my advise to you: RUN!!!!

    • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

      Run and don’t look back.

  • Jericho willis

    I really wish people stop making gay an issue Especially in the church. You people spread so much hate and justify it with the word of God. Or a scripture. Then all indirectly spread hate by saying love the sinner hate the sin knowing that that’s not Evarts truly in your heart is really sad that people have gotten so caught on religion that they’ve lost sight of wgat God is really about and what his purpose was. How do yall expect to change and anybody when you’re making ppl scared, and uncertain about what your motives really is.

  • far2right

    Well, I don’t need that piece of evidence to beware of this false prophet. He was already known by his fruits, his false doctrine.

    But this further substantiates that this one is to be completely rejected by true believing Christians.

  • Stephen Geiger

    Jakes is a business man first and foremost. He runs a multi-million dollar corporation. Perhaps he thinks it will financially benefit his corporation if he supports a morally corrupt lifestyle. This is only one of the problems Jakes has. He has other heretical beliefs and has had them for a long time. He is one of the apostates Jesus warned us about.

  • Lobster01


    • amostpolitedebate

      Except when certain parts become inconvenient (shellfish/mixed fabrics/divorce/slavery). In which case we pretend certain parts don’t exist.

  • Sherry Embry

    T.D. Jakes has released a clear statement debunking this article and setting things straight. Check it out. This a false article. He is not for same sex marriage nor is he backing off from biblical truth about what Scriptures say about homosexuality.

  • mrhowell2002

    Wow… “Go with a church that affirms your lifestyle” how about a pedophile , or a animal lover ?? Should they too find a church that affirms their lifestyle… #Goddiesntchangepeopledo

    • Sherry Embry

      T.D. Jakes released a statement a couple of days ago when he heard about this article. This article is a smear piece. He does not support same sex marriage nor does he affirm the homosexual lifestyle. He stands on the Word firmly. Check out his clear statement.You can read it @ askDr.Brown on fb.

  • Gartha Patton

    Most mega preacher will not support what God says about men lying with men or marriage is to be between a man and woman.They will dance all around the topic with fancy words and never answer the real question how does God feel about it?These are greedy Mega Dogs that will not bark against sin for fear of losing money. All they do is yap about sowing seeds and getting wealthy! Just pathetic! I will never give these greedy dogs one penny!

  • Man of the Hour

    Matthew 5:17-20 guys, Matthew 5:17-20. ”
    17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    18 For
    verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one
    tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    19 Whosoever
    therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach
    men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but
    whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the
    kingdom of heaven.
    20 For
    I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the
    righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter
    into the kingdom of heaven.” Jesus doesn’t lie. We’ve strayed too far from His commandments, and that is why we see this sexual immorality infiltrating the Church.

  • Tyrone Hill

    I guess that Jakes would be OK with adulterers joining a church that affirms their values, and strippers joining a church that caters to them, and perhaps child molesters have their own church too so that they can affirm their values. How about a church that affirms alcoholism and drug abuse, and one that makes porn addicts feel comfortable with their porn, the list goes on and on. Jakes sounds like he has compromised the Gospel in order to keep that 20,000 seat church filled with sinners who won’t confront their sins.

  • Resona Jackmon

    @ James Do you even believe in the Lord Jesus Christ who died on Calvary’s cross
    for your sins and mine? My spirit is not bearing witness with any of
    your conversation thus far back and forth to people. Something about the
    way you are speaking sounds almost like the Black Hebrew Israelites…
    who do not TRUST in Jesus Christ and Him Alone! These preachers CANNOT be LUKEWARM, Neither can ANYONE who calls themselves Christians… God is very clear in His WORD, but people CHOOSE not to fully believe or trust in the WORD of God!
    Timothy 6:18-21 “That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life. O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.” Isaiah 3:9 “The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves” He is a preacher, does it not realize that God is watching

  • Resona Jackmon

    Isaiah 29:15 “Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?”

    Isaiah 30:1 “Woe to the rebellious children, saith the Lord, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:” God is not mocked!

  • MsDtown


  • Kuni Leml

    Allow me to explain the Christian position on gay marriage to you heathens, papists, demon possessed Conservatives, and pagans.

    The prohibition against two men having sex in the Old Testament is in what used to be called “The Law.” The same Law that made eating shrimp, lobster, and crab etc. an “Abomination.”

    The same Law that does not apply to Christians. The Old Testament law was given to the ancient Israelites, not to Christians.

    Same sex marriage was allowed in the Roman world that Jesus lived in, and he has nothing bad to say about it. (It was hundreds of years later, after Rome started banning same sex marriage that the empire started to collapse as it became more and more theocratic.)

    Morally, American has been dragged into to 1st Century from the stone age by the Supreme Court’s ruling. We now need to continue this trend and drag ourselves into the 21st Century. These self-proclaimed, but fake, Christians need to be totally marginalized before they endanger even more souls, not just theirs and their children’s souls who they have currently condemned to Hell with their false religion.

    As for anything that Saul of Tarsus, who contradicts what Jesus actually said on multiple occasions, said: That mere fact that Saul contradicts what Jesus actually said on multiple occasions, makes Saul one of the false prophets that Jesus warned us about and puts Saul at the top of the list of people to ignore.

    Even the followers of the false prophet Saul of Tarsus have no supporting arguments. Their false prophet, in Romans 1 only speaks about sexual ritual in pagan temples, bot straight and same sex. Saul was only saying that if you want to be a fake Christian like him, you could not worship other gods by doing A, B and C, including the sexual rituals. Nothing more, nothing less. The other two times Saul mentions gays are a miscellaneous catalogues of behaviors that are regarded as unacceptable, with no particular emphasis placed on any individual item in the list.

  • Robert Bishop

    Am I to understand that TD Jakes is stating that God and his, word is not the final authority on this matter?

  • paul

    All in the name of keep status quo of “mega church” many God of men will redefine the bible to the acceptability of itching ears congregation and followers. @ worldgonecracy has said it all

  • JohnStefanyszyn

    TD Jakes…FREEDOM, the Overarching System (the ‘god of fortresses’?) that Protects Unique Nuances.

    Mr. Jakes recently stated …

    …”…Once you begin to understand that democracy, that a republic actually, is designed to be an overarching system to protect our unique nuances, then we no longer look to public policy to reflect biblical ethics.”

    …”The church should have the right to have its own convictions and values; if you don’t like those convictions and values and you totally disagree with it, don’t try to change my house, move into your own … and find somebody who gets what you get about faith.”

    It is clear that Mr. Jakes believes in, defends, and glorifies the righteousness of FREEDOM of Self-Rights….which in this discussion revolves around freedom of sexual lifestyle and religious freedom.

    He has very clearly justified in his eyes the “goodness” of the democratic (self-ruling) system, outlining that it acts as the “overarching system”, ie the authority above all other authorities, that protects the nuances , the differences in the variety and preferences of personal beliefs, whether they be sexual or religious.

    In other words, this “ overarching” acts as the ‘god of (above) all fortresses’.

    It is written in Daniel, that the last king of the north will glorify and advance his “god of fortresses”.

    What is the one belief, amongst all nations, peoples, religions, lifestyles, that is common to all?

    What one belief is embraced, desired, and glorified by the small and the great, by the rich and the poor, by the free (employers) and by the bondmen ( employees)?

    What is the one belief that is marked as a sign of allegiance on everyone’s forehead and hand?

    Is it not the love for FREEDOM…for freedom of self-rights, freedom of self-religion, freedom of self-happiness, freedom of sexual lifestyle?

    Mr. Jakes has clearly shown that he places this FREEDOM as the overarching way of life above all other beliefs, thus subsequently placing the Son of the One Creator, the Lord Jesus Christ, below this “FREEDOM” and consequentially categorizing HIM to be of EQUAL validity to ‘other gods’.

    This FREEDOM dictates that it is RIGHT, a right, to be free to worship ANY ‘god’ as per one’s self-justified desires, establishing this to be “good” in one’s own eyes.

    BUT the One Creator said that man is not to worship any other gods. In other words HE said that man is NOT FREE to worship other gods, warning man that if he were to do so the judgement and penalty for this taken-freedom, for this disobedience, would be death.

    The Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the One Creator, said the we are to worship ONLY the One Lord your Creator God and HIM Alone to serve in obedience and love, love for HIM first and foremost and love for, to do GOOD according to the One True Way, to the fellow man.

    Very soon, the Lord Jesus Christ will return, as a thief in man’s eyes, to rule the earth in obedience and power as the ONE KING according to the Will of ‘I AM’ and NOT according to man’s first love for “his overarching freedom “, for his desire to serve and magnify oneself (XES).

    …and man will weep and clench his teeth in intense anger when his freedom will be no more

    …and the Lord Jesus Christ will say, to those that hypocritically and theologically claim “biblical ethics” in His Name, that “ I do not know you, workers of lawlessness”.

    The Lord Jesus Christ said to repent and to serve Only Him, for He is the One True Way of Life.

  • Howard Taylor

    Homosexuality is a sin

    . . . Sexual corruption is one of the chief symptoms of a sick and decaying society. The right ordering of the relations between the sexes is so important to a culture that any culture which fails to deal realistically with the problem is likely to go to pieces.

    No person has ever been born a homosexual. Yet thousands of people in our country believe they are different by design. They believe there is some natural alteration in their body chemistry that draws them to persons of the same sex, and they say they ought to have free and open homosexual relationships. But God’s Word says they are wrong. A homosexual becomes so through lust, or through the pressure of homosexual or bisexual friends or relatives, which leads to experimentation, which leads to demon infestation and control. It is not what God intended. Before the slogans of “gay rights” became so popular, homosexual acts were called “sodomy.” That term comes from the city of Sodom, which the Bible describes as one of the most wicked cities on the face of the earth.

    God’s Word for “Gays”

    God has given us a very explicit ruling on homosexuality. Read what His Word says:

    Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination…. Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants (Lev. 18:22, 24,25).

    God wiped out entire nations because they practiced homosexuality. Did you know that was in the Bible? It’s an awesome thing to think about. Amidst all the clamor for “gay rights,” we ought to pay careful attention to what God says about homosexuality. God takes this problem seriously, and He deals with it firmly. He classes homosexuality among the most vile sins of humankind.

    … For even their women exchanged the natural use [of sex] for what is against nature. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust toward one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due … those who practice such things are worthy of death (Rom. 1:26,27,32).

    Would God say this about homosexuals if some people were born this way? I think not. He is trying to protect us from unnatural passions. Homosexuality is just as perverse as prostitution; both warp the purpose God intended for sex. Read what He says:

    There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel (Deut. 23:17).

    God uses strong language to denounce the perversion of sex. As we have seen so many times before, God is very protective of sex. He leaves no room for behavior that is motivated by twisted lust.

    This is the worst thing about homosexuality–the spiritual result. Granted, it degrades the individual and distorts his moral values. Sex becomes a flippant kind of physical recreation that can be enjoyed anytime, anywhere, with anybody. These results are bad enough. But the clincher is what homosexuality does to the soul of a person, leading him or her into gross sin. The Bible says that homosexuality ranks beside drunkenness, extortion, and idolatry as a despicable form of ungodliness. It declares that a homosexual cannot inherit the kingdom of God, anymore than a common thief could.

    Do you know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God (1Cor. 6:9,10).

    Don’t be fooled into thinking that homosexuality is something in your genetic makeup, something that can’t be changed. It is a choice, and it is a sin! Yet thank God, our sins can be wiped out when we confess them to Jesus. Choose Jesus! Choose Life!



    —Forgiveness Prayer—

    Lord Jesus Christ, I believe that you are the Son of God. You are the Messiah come in the flesh to destroy the works Of the devil. You died on the cross for our sins and rose again from the dead. I now confess and repent of all my sins, and ask you to forgive me and cleanse me from all unrighteousness, I believe that your blood cleanses me now from all sins. Thank YOU for redeeming me, cleansing me, justifying me and sanctifying me by your precious blood.

  • Faye

    TD Jakes has compromised!!! So disappointing!!! One Nation Under God!!!!

  • Nidalap

    Whoopsies! These comments don’t go with this article! Snazzy new look to the site though! 🙂