Australians Vote in Favor of Same-Sex ‘Marriage’ in Nationwide Postal Survey

Photo Credit: David Jackmanson

(Bloomberg) Australians have voted emphatically in support of same-sex marriage, paving the way for parliament to legalize homosexual unions before the end of the year.

Some 61.6 percent of the more than 12 million people who took part in the government-run postal survey backed same-sex “marriage,” with 38.4 percent against, the Australian Bureau of Statistics announced on Wednesday. While the voluntary survey doesn’t legally bind parliament, Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull said the public “overwhelmingly” backed changing the law and urged lawmakers to respect the outcome.

“We must respect the voice of the people,” Turnbull told reporters in Canberra. “We asked them for their opinion and they have given it to us. It is unequivocal. It is overwhelming.”

Turnbull’s call is supported by business, including Australia & New Zealand Banking Group Ltd., which says homosexual “marriage” would add A$650 million ($496 million) to the economy in the first year alone. But the right-leaning coalition government remains divided on the issue, with lawmakers arguing whether to let celebrants and other service providers opt out of marrying gay couples on religious grounds.

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  • meamsane

    Well, at least 38.4% of Australians are still difficult to brainwash and deceive on objective truth and morality.

    • MattFCharlestonSC

      says the person who is brainwashed to believe that his personal religious choice constitutes an objective measure of national civil rights.

      • meamsane

        Objective truth does not change because of majority opinion.

        • Worf

          Objective truth is not defined by religious dogmas, and does not change because a particularly hate filled brand of christians find gay people icky.

          You claim to know the absolute truth on morality. Can you prove it? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Can you show any evidence (not the bible) that your version of morality is the one and only truth?

          If you can’t provide this evidence than anybody is justified in calling your “truth” utter nonsense, and ignoring your hateful “morality”.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Objective truth is not defined by religious dogmas”

            you are right ….. objective truth defines TRUTH IN CHRISTIANITY ……. they are the same ……….

          • meamsane

            Absolute truth on morality? That absolute truth comes from God. You want me to prove it? Yet you want to eliminate the bible as evidence? That shows your dis-ingenuous question for me to prove it!

            OK. Against all science and evidence-human psychology, anthropology, anatomy, biology, etc, etc a human male and a human female are compatible mates in marriage for what should be to most, self-evident observations and that two men or two women are not meant to be sexually compatible when one objectively looks at the design of the created order.

            The problem is not with the evidence, it is with you rejecting the evidence because of the conclusion that that truth leads you to.
            God decides.

          • Worf

            I eliminate the bible as evidence because it is not. It is just a book. The books I get scientific knowledge from are not evidence of the statements in them. But they usually cite actual scientific studies that, while very difficult and boring to read, provide the evidence for the statements in the book in a formal and organized way. The bible simply makes unsubstantiated claims that far exceed the level of evidence it provides for those claims.

            The sexual compatibility of gender combinations has no relation to morality.

          • meamsane

            But science books are just books too. You want to define “evidence” in a very narrow way and exclude evidence that may challenge your own view, I get it.
            You reject the self-evident truth that the design and perfectly compatible anatomy of the male sex organs to the female sex organs leads you to. When you reject an objective standard for such, I can see why you would. Then you should have no problem with Bestiality, incest etc when you use subjective personal measures for what you support.

          • Worf

            You need to work on your reading comprehension. I was specifically saying that books are not evidence of what is written in them, whether they are science books or the bible.

            But science books cite the evidence for their content. The only purpose of the book is to present the findings in a compact way that a layman can understand.

            So far, every divine claim in the bible has yet to provide even the slightest evidence for its truth. Claiming to know the absolute moral truth is a big claim, and you have not met your burden of proof, ESPECIALLY because you expect other people to live by it.

            Saying something is “self-evident” does not make it true. I think it is “self-evident” that the christian god was made up by ancient men with something to gain, but clearly you do not agree with that.

            Comparing gay sex to bestiality and rape is a hatefully false deflection, and it shows the level of vile deceived hate that bubbles in you. The same disgusting comparison was used by the nazis to justify sending homosexuals to concentration camps to be enslaved and murdered.

            You obviously consider gay people subhuman, and are therefor not someone I am willing to continue this with. Have fun with your hypocritical hate mongering.

          • meamsane

            I said nothing about rape. I am in no way demonstrating hate. You folks want everyone to bow the knee and affirm your lifestyles and when you can’t you default to the usual talking points: your a hater, bigot, etc. You simply don’t want to address the issues that I am getting at. You are the one deflecting.

            Comparing “gay” sex to bestiality is not a “hatefully false deflection” but an apt example of an un-natural desire and action opposing the natural order of how we are to relate to each other. The only sexual relationship that is legitimate and good is between a husband (man) and a wife ( woman). Any other is wrong and that includes adultery and fornication (hetero and homo), bestiality, incest etc.

            If there is no God, then there is no objective standard of morality that applies to all humans. So there would be no cause to complain when everyone wants to go there own way and do there own thing that is morally questionable. But that is not the truth, is it? To have such a society would mean utter chaos and eventual ruin.

            I don’t consider “gay” people to be subhuman, and neither does God!

        • DrIndica

          Can you provide objective proof of your “truth”?

          • meamsane

            Objective proof? See my above answer to worf. But I don’t expect you to accept it.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Truth is the standard and is either accepted or rejected …… there is no “proof” required …… you reject it ….. SO WHAT …………

        • TSawesome

          Objective truth is that gay people are just a capable of lifelong, fulfilling, loving, self-sacrificing and faithful marriages as anyone.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            capable … sure … maybe …. IF they stop being homosexual …… very big IF though …… and staying homosexual ….. forget it …

            For the 829 homosexuals who died of something else besides AIDS, the median age was 42 years of age, and 9% died old. Of 163 lesbians, the median age was 44 years of age, and 20% died old. 2.8% of homosexuals died violently and they were 116 times more apt to be murdered, 24 times more apt to commit suicide, and had a traffic accident death rate 18 times greater than comparably aged white males. 20% of lesbians died of murder, suicide, or accident, a rate 487 times greater than that of white females aged 25 to 44.

          • ppp777

            The truth tell a totally different story , you are reprobates .

        • Eldrida Urika

          Did you not realize that Jesus believed in equal rights? And Jesus never told us to treat sinners differently than anyone else.. I’ll be happy to give you the scriptures that show that if you are not familiar with them. BTW being able to be married is an equal rights issue. Jesus never told us to interfere in their lives either. He told us to ensure that they know the Gospel and leave them alone to choose whether or not to follow Jesus or not. He never once told us to intrude into their lives like stopping their sin and affecting their lives. He never taught us to be inconsiderate towards anyone. He never told us to stop sinners from sinning and instead he told us that they will have an expected end. So what is the reason you think that Jesus would approve of taking away anything that all other people are able to do?

          • TruthvLIes

            The only equal right that Jesus preached was the right to be born again.

            SSM is not an equal rights issue. It is an issue of satan trying to destroy what God has created and because of that we should not give it our imprimatur.

            The whole thing is based on lies. We are called to support the truth because it is the truth that sets us free, not lies. SSM will only serve to put homosexuals into more bondage than they are at the moment.

            And what Jesus told us to be was salt and light and to be that we have to oppose darkness and washing our hands of what the world demands of us.

          • Eldrida Urika

            I’m sorry but perhaps you forgot the scriptures. The story of the Apostles receiving the people’s assets and that couple that held money back? What they were doing was collecting all money for the purpose of dividing it amongst all the people so they would start as equal to each other at that point. So you should look at the scriptures and see what it says. Blessings!

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        it is not a personal choice ….. unlike being a homosexual ………..

        • DrIndica

          Religion is most definitely a personal subjective choice. Most times dependent on which part of the globe in which one is born.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope ….. that is your fundamental misunderstanding of christianity ……. FAIL ……..

          • ZappaSaid88

            nope. Religion is chosen.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            christians are chosen by God Himself ….. your misunderstanding of what happens …… it is not our choice …………..

          • ZappaSaid88

            Ha, thanks for the laugh! The finger of God taps you on the head and chooses you for his team like some sort of jr High gym class? That’s hilarious. I’m sure you have some proof of your statement?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            SCRIPTURE ………..

          • ZappaSaid88

            Using the Bible to prove the Bible? Nope, circular argument.

          • mr goody two shoes

            The reason we use the bible is because their is no higher authority you use lower authority which is no authority at all. The grass withers and the flowers die but the word of the Lord endurith for ever.

          • ZappaSaid88

            You use imaginary authority, nothing worse than that.

          • Trilemma

            There is no higher authority than the Bible? I thought God was the highest authority. Sounds like bibliolatry.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            God IS His word …… His word is scripture …….

          • Trilemma

            Which version of the Bible is God?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            the TR ………….

          • Trilemma

            I like the TR but why not the NA28. After years of textual criticism, it matches the original manuscripts better than the TR.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            God has said He will preserve His word ….. and history has shown the TR to be those manuscripts …. if there is any question we can go to the original language ….. no matter who translated it ………. and it is available …….. it is what the 1800 translators had available to them ….. mostly complete and intact and the others have numerous dubious lineages ………

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you use a science book and a website to “prove” science ……. and that is not circular reasoning …… better check your definition ….. you might also clean off your glasses ad check WHERE YOU ARE ….. and that is on a CHRISTIAN website …… that IS proof here ……… YOU are the one who made assertions about christianity …… did you think the answer was else where …. AGAIN …. clean off your glasses and check WHERE YOU ARE ………….

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            scripture says we cannot choose God without God …… let me see you choose Him …. RIGHT …. you cannot … as so far ….. He has not chosen you ……..

          • MCrow

            He’s right: I didn’t get the decoder ring in my cereal box, guess it’s eternal damnation for something I have no way to avoid and is entirely out of my hands

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            well you are sort of getting it ….. and if that is not motivation for you to investigate why …. so what …. not my job to change your mind ,,,, it is Gods job to do that …

          • MCrow

            What a lovely excuse to ignore the Great Comission! Also, I would like to point out once again that this makes your god a sadistic narcissist who only cares about his own glory and creates sapient, thinking, feeling beings for no purpose other than to be eternally tortured. And your last point just makes me assume more than ever that god is not real.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            the great commission as far as you are concerned is fulfilled …… you have heard the gospel ….. you have rejected it …… Gods word does not return void and in your case it has resulted in your rejection ….. all as God intended it to do … anything beyond that is above my pay grade and up to Christ …..

          • MCrow

            Oh so close and so far. Nowhere does it say in the Comission to spread the word. “Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”

            “Make disciples” is a very active and specific charge. Simply saying “eh, they heard it, and that’s all they get” is nothing but sloth.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            we make disciples by speaking His words ….. i.e. the scriptures ……. and your public testimony is ….. YOU HAVE HEARD IT ……

          • MCrow

            Also, how can I “reject” god? You yourself have said I have no will to accept or reject your god, that it has to change me in some undefinable, non-specific way. So no, I havne’t rejected god. You, however, have rendered all of the teachings on evangelism moot.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you misunderstand …… Gods word ….. the scriptures ….. rejected you …..

          • MCrow

            And again, we are back to the *thing* you worship being unworthy of it. He commands you to do pointless exercises (why bother with evangelization? Prayer? Church?), creates people with no choice but to fall to sin and only saves them on his whimsy, punishing those who have no choice in the matter with eternal torture, and could fix everything in the world, but doesn’t because his narcissistic glorymongering wouldn’t be satisfied.

            Whatever you worship, Amos, isn’t good, and isn’t love.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and AGAIN ….. we are back to the *thing* you say you would not worship …… has REJECTED you ….. and you wanted to be REJECTED ….. so ….. WHAT IS YOUR COMPLAINT ……cause i aint gettin’ what your complaint is …… you are getting ….. EXACTLY AS YOU WISH ……. so quit your BELLY-ACHING ….. and MAN -UP …………..

          • MCrow

            Mostly because you use it as justification to treat others as inferior to yourself. So man up and convince people or stop complaining when other people are more benevolent than your god

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            they are the same as me and you … and you are projecting your A-theism on me ….. you are the one who does not care for them ….. i want them safe and well and in Christ …… you want them abandoned to hell with you ….. misery loves company ….. your crocodile tears are touching …… but i do not believe you ….. you are all full of ….. well …… YOURSELF …………..

          • MCrow

            Saying I’m full of myself is rich from the man who claims to known the mind of an omniscient deity…when will you just admit that your “god” stares you back in the mirror every day?

            This is the issue with fundamentalists: you say you care for people as you seek to oppress them, demand that they follow your ways, and say that those who do not are condemned to hell for all eternity. Rule by fear, judgment, and hostility. A century ago, churches were claiming interracial marriages were an abomination. Before that they defended slavery. Your hatred and justification of oppression is nothing new, Amos, just a relic of people too fearful to accept what is different.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “when will you just admit that your “god” stares you back in the mirror every day?”

            yours does ……..

          • MCrow

            I have no god, so nope

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            your God is you belly …. you are a slave to your appetites ….. so YEAH …. you do … and you LIE about that also …. nothing knew ………

          • MCrow

            I have no god. I don’t worship anything. Again, you are convinced that everyone is the same as you. I could make arguments against, but then you’ll accuse me of boasting (as you have before), so my response is this: you’re wrong, but your pride won’t allow you to accept it, because in your mind, you and god are in agreement on everything.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you are your own God …. or government is your God …. and you are not “unique in all the universe” …. God created you … God knows you ….. God told the world about the world He created …. and the a-theist God deniers place in it ….. and your denials are just more lies …….

          • MCrow

            I. Have. No. God.

            I know you can’t accept this, but not everyone thinks like you do. Your god is as real to me as any other god: fictions created to explain things beyond contemporary comprehension.

            Also, your labeling of what I think as a lie just shows you conflate your own will with your god. How do you know what I think? God alone can read hearts, according to your scriptures. Are you saying you can read my heart? Because if so, you are setting yourself up along Yahweh.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            more of your lies ………. why should anyone listen …….. IGNORED ………..

          • MCrow

            Ah yes, the ostrich defense: you can’t answer so you pretend to ignore things.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … liars get ignored … BECAUSE THEY ARE LIARS ….. did you not EVER learn that ……. you lie to yourself and now you want us to believe YOUR LIES …. LIARS get ignored as they should …………

          • MCrow

            You can’t dismiss my claims, so you call them lies. You can’t support your arguments, so you call me a liar. You have no arguments to make, so you try to ignore me. You can’t address any of my claims, so you’re going to bury your head in the sand. I’m guessing you are covering your ears because there is still some rational part of your brain that is looking at the things I say and you know you can’t reasonably argue against them.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            lies are not claims …. they are lies …. nothing to dismiss …. YOU are dismissed ………

          • MCrow

            You could show they were lies if they were lies. It would be easy. But no, you just say I’m a liar because I don’t think like you. It’s sad

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i do not justify lies ….. IGNORED …… Christ heard MANY, MANY lies during His trial …… His response ….. was SILENCE ……

          • MCrow

            Again, asking you to justify your truth. And again, you can’t

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            because …. simply …. there is no “my truth” ….. so it is a lying and stupid request …….

          • MCrow

            Ok, then justify the truth: show me one proof that everyone everywhere for all of history knows that god exists. Go on. That is your claim, you claim it is the objective truth. Put your money where your mouth is. Otherwise, I would sincerely suggest silence as it would show you’re not serious about your claim and are, in fact, just making unfounded claims.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            truth is either accepted or rejected …. you reject it ….. and the evidence is …. you ask for it to be “justified” …… justify your demand that truth be “justified” ………

          • MCrow

            Because if you justified the truth, you would provide me with evidence which I could accept or reject. You say I reject truth, but you have not a shred of proof that I have, aside from saying so. In short, you’re making your unfounded claims and usurping the judgment seat again because you equate yourself to your god

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … backwards ….. if you knew and accepted the truth …. then it would not need any justification or proof …… but since you have rejected the truth … nothing will ever justify or prove it …… in short …… it does not matter what is shown to you ….. you will not accept it as you do not accept truth ….

            BY YOUR OWN ADMISSIONS HERE ……… IN WRITING ………..

          • MCrow

            I do not accept what anyone claims is truth without evidence. If someone told me “the sun rises in the west,” they’d better have some evidence to back it up. I reject your claims to hold absolute truth without evidence, yes. You have provided me with…you saying you’re right, which is about as convincing as someone saying the sun rises in the west and telling me I need to believe it without question.

            Also, you are veering dangerously close to a classic heresy: Gnosticism, which claims that only the enlightened can see the truth.

          • TruthvLIes

            So you don’t accept it when an atheist claims God does not exist but does not provide any proof?

          • MCrow

            We atheists don’t need to provide proof of the non-existence. We take the lack of evidence as proof enough. You can argue “lack of evidence is not evidence of lack,” but if we have no evidence whatsoever and have wholly natural methods to explain all things credited to God…then I default to Occom’s Razor: choose a solution that makes the fewest assumptions. If everything can be explained naturally, then we have no need for miraculous explanations. If God is not something anyone can experience readily, then why should we believe in him?

          • TruthvLIes

            There speaks an atheist that is an expert on nothing except his own opinion.

            Sad to say, occam’s razor won’t get you to heaven and it won’t stop you going to hell so if I were you buddy I would ditch it in favour of the real truth that sets you free.

            Jesus, the way the truth and the life.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “I do not accept what anyone claims is truth no matter what the evidence.”

            there you go …. i fixed that for you ….. now it is correct ……….

          • MCrow

            Also, if you actually would be silent, I’d stop responding. But your pride won’t let you, will it?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            then walk away …….. run away little boy …………

          • MCrow

            If you were someone it took longer than a minute to formulate a response to, I might. Sadly, your arguments have deteriorated of late to being dismissable on…well, not being arguments, failing to address my arguments, and generally running at the first sign that you’re over your head. I don’t run when I’m not at risk

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            LOL ….. you are headed toward a cliff you cannot or refuse to acknowledge ….. but you are “not at risk” …… laughing leads to crying ……….

          • MCrow

            What cliff? So far as I’m concerned, all you’ve proven to me is that your religion has no evidence for its claims, or you would use it.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            truth is accepted or rejected …. you reject it …. and you reject any proof of it …. it is not my job to convince you of what you outrightly and vociferously reject … it makes no difference what “proof” is put in front of you …. you reject it ….. you have stated you “were a christian” ….. baloney …. but fine …. you have stated outrightly and vociferously that even if that God was proven to you, you would not want any part of it ……. what is it that we have not already discussed that you think is going to be presented to you that is going to change even one thing …….. YOU HAVE NO COMPLAINT …. you have what you want ….. you are precisely where you want to be …… on Hokkaido waiting for NK to send a nuke your way ….. but you are not at risk …..

            and i am somehow supposed to tear down that kind of denial ……. and that is not “evidence” for you ………… you reject your own false reality ….. YOU HAVE NO COMPLAINT ……

          • MCrow

            Correction: I’ve said if God is what you have made him to be (tyrannical, despotic, whimsical, destroying and torturing to glorify himself), then yes, I’d rebel against him. It is the only moral choice. And yes, I left the church because I realized that it was causing me great mental anguish to try to hold those beliefs.

            What you have not done is shown me any evidence of a deity of any variety, certainly not yours. If you had some, you’d present it, but instead you write these long winded rants about me and how I’m a liar. You don’t make a counter-argument.

            Because you don’t have one.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            all hat …no cowboy …. your claim and nothing to back it up …… and it is all JUST AS I SAID …. “(tyrannical, despotic, whimsical, destroying and torturing to glorify himself), then yes, I’d rebel against him.” …… DENIAL of any evidence ….. and yet you sit there and demand “evidence” ….. so you can deny it further ……… AGAIN … YOU HAVE NO COMPLAINT …… go cry in you tea water ……….

          • MCrow

            What evidence, Amos? I said I’d rebel against him if he existed. I’d rebel against Voldemort if he existed. Emperor Palpatine. I don’t think any of these entities exist.

            My argument is that you have presented 0 evidence because you have none. If you want to prove me wrong, present it. Go ahead.

            Also, I rather like the tea here, though I vastly prefer English tea. I have no real reason to cry, as I’m not the one who has repeatedly fail to provide evidence for my claim.

          • TruthvLIes

            Actually, atheists have been shown for ever and a day but they reject the evidence because they don’t want evidence they want an argument as one atheist told me.’

            The fact is, atheists cannot handle the truth so the only way they can avoid it is denial.

            I can show you plenty of examples that God exists which I have used before but all the atheists have done is make pathetic excuses why they reject the evidence.

            And to prove they don’t want evidence, the leader of the local atheist club was asked to write an article in the local paper to defend atheism and in it he said miracles do not happen today.

            I wrote to him and gave him detailed evidence of a miracle taking place. Date, time, people involved what happened and where and told him to contact the people to verify what I said.

            When I checked back later he had made no attempt to contact the people involved.

            So he didn’t want evidence. He just wanted a platform to shoot from the lip and rubbish christianity.

          • TruthvLIes

            What evidence do you want?

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            “Ostrich defense”. I like that one. I’ll have to remember it.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            No. Firstly, there’s no such thing as an “a-theist” and saying made up words over and over doesn’t make them real. People don’t worship themselves, they simply live lives according to their own decisions (and you do as well). All your “God” statements are opinions only.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            everybody worships something … and the rest are LIARS ……..

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            No, Amos. Worship is a very specific thing people do, in fact they go to special buildings like churches and synagogues to do it. If you are not a believer in a deity, you do not worship. It’s that simple.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you do not know what worship is …….. it does not require you to go anywhere or any place special … it is a DAILY ROUTINE …… it is what we do DAY IN AND DAY OUT …… and that is what you do …. you WORSHIP YOURSELF ………… DAY IN AND DAY OUT …… it is that simple ……….

          • Silas Jennings

            A five-year old knows what worship is, Amos. You don’t get to take well-known words and redefine them to your own specifications. No one worships themselves. No one.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope …. he does not ………. and you can give it a meaning that is not biblical ….. BUT …. this is a christian web site and a christian forum …… and definitions that apply ARE THE BIBLICAL DEFINITIONS ….. not the worlds definitions …………. and YES … people DO WORSHIP THEMSELVES …… FYI ….. it is called NARCISSISM ………… and all a-theists are NARCISSISTS ………

          • Silas Jennings

            You are making up words again. Until you are willing to use the common language if the dictionary there is little point in talking to you. I cannot guess what your made-up words mean and there is no one to define them.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope …. you are the one accepting made up definitions …. FAIL …………

          • TruthvLIes

            Glad you brought that up. As yet I have not found one dictionary where it says that the meaning of the words hate, intolerance or bigotry is to disagree with someone. yet the rainbow warriors insist that is what they mean.

          • Silas Jennings

            That is not what is being discussed here. Amos used the word “a-theists”. There is no such word.

          • hiernonymous

            Narcissus was a figure from a pagan religion. If you think that’s a “Biblical” term, you’ve been having other gods before Him and all that – don’t be naughty!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i think you are not interested in BIBLICAL terms …. so i used YOUR WORLDLY term ….. and IN FACT …. it is LISTED in the DSM-5 ………

            Narcissistic Personality Disorder DSM-5 301.81 (F60.81) – Therapedia
            DSM-5 Category: Personality Disorders. Introduction. Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), a cluster B personality disorder, is considered to be one of the …

            and that BE EVERY A-THEIST ………

          • hiernonymous

            Well, yes, but unless you’re a zealous psychiatrist, the DSM isn’t the Bible. And while it’s perfectly normal to use terms in a less than clinical fashion, invoking the DSM to claim that everyone with a particular viewpoint is clinically diagnosable erodes your credibility.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            if the psychiatrist is expecting insurance reimbursement …. He Does ………. and SCRIPTURE has diagnosed them for quite some time ….. as lovers of self and not lovers of God and as liars without excuse …..

          • hiernonymous

            “…if the psychiatrist is expecting insurance reimbursement ….”

            Yes, go on? You’re communicating in fragments.

            “….and SCRIPTURE has diagnosed them for quite some time .”

            So it’s not sin, but a personality disorder? That really shakes up the new covenant, doesn’t it?

            “…and as liars without excuse …..”

            What do think they are lying about?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … it is a SIN …. and they are without excuse ……

          • hiernonymous

            Okay, I’m confused. I thought you said scripture diagnosed them with NPD. So I misunderstood?

            “they are without excuse”

            Okay, but that doesn’t answer the question. What do you think they are lying about? We’ll take it as a given that you don’t think they have an excuse for whatever it is.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            yes … you are confused ………

          • hiernonymous

            Yes …. yes, I am. You have said:
            1. That atheists are narcissists.
            2. That narcissism is a diagnosis in the DSM.
            3. That scriptures contain this diagnosis.

            Well, the DSM doesn’t describe NPD as a sin, but as a personality disorder. So your posts are inconsistent. I’ll be confused as long as your posts are inconsistent. Did you just not think it through?

            And you still haven’t said what they’re lying about. Should we just write that accusation off as poorly considered and move on?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “3. That scriptures contain this diagnosis.”

            NOOPE …….. try reading MORE CAREFULLY and read into what you want to see ……….

          • hiernonymous

            “. and SCRIPTURE has diagnosed them for quite some time”

            And what, again, are they lying about?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you are making CATEGORY ERRORS ….. quit reading into what i wrote and instead read what i said …………

          • hiernonymous

            Okay. You said that scripture had ‘diagnosed them.’ Having provided the context of the DSM and a specific personality disorder within the DSM, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to read ‘diagnose’ in its usual meaning of ‘identifying the health problem afflicting the patient.’ This doesn’t seem consistent with treating sin as a choice for which the sinner is punished. I’ll accept that you didn’t mean it that way, though the link between NPD and the scriptures then becomes questionable. But no matter, we can leave that lie, if you wish.

            When are you going to ‘say’ what the atheists are lying about?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            yes …. i did not say the DSM5 was used …… CATEGORY ERROR …………..

          • hiernonymous

            Context. Didn’t you just get done telling me how important context was in understanding what is written?

            If that’s not what you meant, that’s okay.

            Still haven’t heard you explain your ‘liars’ accusation. Who is “lying” about what?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            it is scripture … do you accept scripture …..

          • hiernonymous

            If you would clearly state what it is you are claiming, then we can examine the siurce and support of your claim. Who is lying about what?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Romans
            1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
            1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

            so they know God exists …. they have no excuse …… they deny God …. the a-theist (who mind earthly things) ….. “enemies of the cross” and most of them outwardly state as such ….. and they hold themselves out as a god to themselves …. their god is their own belly ….. narcissism ………. and liars ……….

            Philippians
            3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
            3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

            apt description of the a-theist …………….

          • hiernonymous

            So your contention is that
            Major Premise: If one states something that one knows not to be true, one is a liar.
            Minor Premise: Everyone knows God exists.
            Conclusion: Anyone who says that God does not exist is a liar.

            Is that an accurate summary?

          • hiernonymous

            Was my summary fair? Is there any way you’d like to adjust it before we move forward and analyze it?

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Exactly, exactly!

          • Tangent002 ✓

            I think it’s more like ‘Duck, Duck, Goose’.

          • mr goody two shoes

            Yes we do such as John 6:44

          • ppp777

            Salvation is offered [ a free gift ] , unless you are a calvanist you will think different .

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you cannot show me even one scripture where anyone in scripture was ever made such an offer and anyone who “accepted” …… not even one ………….

          • ppp777

            I’m afraid you don’t know the gospel .

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            then YOU show me …………. ONE EXAMPLE ………… ONE PERSON ……….

          • ppp777

            ” Salvation is a Gift of God not of works lest any man should boast ” , I could go on .

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and i pointed that out ….. but as it ALSO SAYS …. ” not of works lest any man should boast” … or did you just want to IGNORE THAT PART ………. it has NOTHING to do with us ….. it ALL has to do with GOD ………..

          • ppp777

            Yes , it is a [ what ? ] , yes a GIFT of God , or do you not know what a gift is ? , it is of course FREE , that is a gift by definition , and it is offered to all that will turn to his son [ Jesus ] , for salvation which he alone payed for , lets not go round in circles .

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “yes a GIFT of God””all that will turn to his son” ….. and i NEVER said different ….and i POINTED IT OUT TO YOU ….. but it is NOT available to any but the ELECT who can receive it …… and unless and until GOD INTERVENES ….. no one can receive it ….. Christ did NOT die for the sins of those WHO WOULD NEVER ACCEPT HIM ……. sorry … that is the way it is …..

            1 corinthians
            1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
            1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
            1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
            1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
            1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
            1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
            1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
            1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
            1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

            men will not accept “foolishness” WITHOUT Gods intervention …. and UNTIL God intervenes ….. at GODs SOLE DISCRETION …… it is NOT available to them …….. we are PREDESTINED to salvation ……. “according to the good pleasure of his will” ….. NOT OUR will …… GODS WILL …………..

            Ephesians
            1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
            1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
            1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
            1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
            1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
            1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
            1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
            1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
            1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

          • ppp777

            You are talking calvanism , that is pure heresy ,” God has no wish that ANYONE should perish but ALL come to repentance ” , of course there is a cut off point , predestination by for knowledge yes , unconditional predestination , pure heresy .

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope …. i am talking SCRIPTURE ….. What you Got ………….

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Salvation requires believing in God, right? How can that then be considered a “free gift”?

          • hiernonymous

            Rev 22:17

            “The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.”

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            is salvation a gift from God ….. YES …… is it open to every person ….. SURE …… but you cannot show any scripture with specificity where any person chose God WITHOUT GOD …. none …… God is sovereign ….. God is in control of salvation ….. as the Savior He does not require even one thing from us to save us ….. and that includes our cooperation, our “decision”, our assent, our permission, our free will, nor any other thing ….. we are dead men and women, dead in our trespasses and sins …….. “there is none that seeketh after God” …. and none means NONE …..

            Romans
            3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
            3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
            3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

            it is a sovereign ELECTION ….. and we have no part in it ….. “lest any man should boast” ………

          • hiernonymous

            Right. So every man is a sinner, and comes to salvation, not by deserving or earning it, but through faith. Am I on track so far?

            So you also had this to say:

            “Many Christians are gay.”

            contradiction in terms …. sorry ….

            That seemed a little puzzling.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            faith is a COMMAND …. it is not a “choice” ………. it is a specific COMMAND from God …… we have no ability to say “nope, maybe later” ………. and faith (SALVIFIC FAITH) ONLY comes from God …… man is not capable of manufacturing it ……….

            “So you also had this to say: “Many Christians are gay.””

            sorry …. you are going to have to better than that ….. first, probably out of context IF I DID say that ….. which i do not believe i did ……….. NOW to correct that misstatement ……

            “Many Christians are FORMER homosexuals.”

            and see …. you want to know how i know i did not say that ……. because I DO NOT USE THE WORD GAY to describe a homosexual ….. i SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDE that as a description …… it is a bastardization of the language ….

          • hiernonymous

            Do you see the grey line along the left side of the inset material? That’s a function in Disqus knows as the “block quote.” It indicates quoted material.

            Now, within the quoted material, there is a second set of quotes. What you’re seeing is a post in which you quoted material to which you were replying – “Many Christians are gay” – and to which you responded “contradiction in terms …. sorry …..

            This should enable you to read the first post correctly and offer a meaningful response.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and i have already given SEVERAL meaningful responses to it ……… just roll back up the page there ………. but if that is too difficult for you …………

            again …. contradiction in terms ….. there are no ACTIVE MURDERER christians ….. there are no ACTIVE THIEF christians …… there are no ACTIVE ADULTERER christians …… there is no such thing as a (fill in your sin here) christian …… there are no “sin modifier””hyphenated” christian ……… that does not mean christians are sinless …… it means that we agree with God WHAT SIN IS …… and that WE ARE SINNERS …….. and that we leave sin behind to the best of our ability as we agree with God ….. and saying you are a “homosexual christian” ….. is saying i can keep my sin and be somehow in agreement with God ……
            SORRY ….. that option is not on the table ….. we do not have the option of saying i agree with God “EXCEPT” ….. and have that be “okay” ………

          • hiernonymous

            “….. but if that is too difficult for you …….”

            Careful! Wrath and pride are sins. And don’t forget the command to “love your neighbor.” Remember, you do not have the option of saying that you agree with God “except” when you get irritated at someone online. Just sayin’….

            I saw your other post and have responded to it there.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            well you do not seem to understand what “love” is … and i doubt you could give a BIBLICAL description of it …. so no worries for me ……. JUST SAYIN’ ………

          • hiernonymous

            “…well you do not seem to understand what “love” is .”

            Why do you say that? What did I say that contradicts your understanding of Biblical love?

            A pretty common understanding of “love your neighbor as yourself” involves placing the interests and safety of your neighbor on a level with your own, and treating him with respect and concern.

            It’s pretty obvious that “love” doesn’t always mean “nice,” but that wasn’t the point of my comment. We talk of “tough love,” of the need to protect those we love from the errors of their ways, but this does not ever call on us to be snarky, belittling, or engaging in little online dominance games.

            Again, at a casual glance, it seems as if you rationalize the sins that are important to you while denouncing those you don’t share.

            Just sayin’…

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you have not shown any understanding of the bible at all ….. much less what “love” is in a biblical sense ….. FYI ….. there are 8 different words used in scripture for the English word “love” …… so until you can be SPECIFIC about what you mean …… i really do not care about your perception of the QUALITY of my love for anyone in what i say ……….

          • hiernonymous

            “FYI ….. there are 8 different words used in scripture for the English word “love” ”

            Yes, that’s why I very specifically wrote “[a} pretty common understanding of “love your neighbor as yourself….”

            This distinguishes the term as used in this passage from the many other ways it’s used.

            How much more specific do you want to get? And if you think you have a better definition, feel free to highlight how it differs from my usage and its implications.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            again … that is not specific …… and it is not a definition of love ….. just an example ….. but in any case ….. i have no problem with that passage and if it was applied to me ….. i would EXPECT that even if the truth hurt …… it would STILL be love if someone used it to tell me the TRUTH, hurt or no hurt ………….. SO WHAT …………..

          • hiernonymous

            A: “again … that is not specific …… and it is not a definition of love ….. just an example …”

            Okay – scroll up and notice that I wrote this: “How much more specific do you want to get? And if you think you have a better definition, feel free to highlight how it differs from my usage and its implications.”

            If you’re dissatisfied with my comment, I’ll wait for you to explain how you understand the term and point out the defects in my usage. I’m easy.

            ” i would EXPECT that even if the truth hurt ..”

            That presupposes that you understand the truth better than the other. If your daughter is getting ready for her first dance and asks “Daddy, do I look pretty?” Your understanding of “love” would be to respond “Darling, you are as ugly as the day is long, and it’s mighty long this time of year.” I mean, if it’s the truth, that’s love, right?

            Or is it just possible that how we convey the truth is also an important component of love? Food for thought.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you can look up the use of the words for love in scripture ….. but all you want to do is throw the word around in some generic fashion and have it be taken seriously ….. nope …. not gonna happen …. if you want to make a point … it is up to you to make an educated one ….. it is not up to me to play word games with you …. especially when it is clear your intent is to do just that … play at word games ……….

          • hiernonymous

            “… but all you want to do is throw the word around in some generic fashion and have it be taken seriously ….. nope …. not gonna happen ”

            You haven’t shown my use to be in error. Are you implying that anything I wrote is in any way inconsistent with agape?

            “… if you want to make a point … it is up to you to make an educated one .”

            I’ve made my point. If you think there’s an error contained therein, make your case.

            ” it is not up to me to play word games with you .”

            Well, yes, it is, when you attempt to elude a point by insisting “that word doesn’t mean what you think it means.”

            If you believe that there are translational issues that are germane to my comment, make them explicit. Don’t expect to be given credit for an argument you can’t be bothered to make.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “You haven’t shown my use to be in error. ”

            you have not shown what your use is ……… not on me … it is on you …….. and again ….. you just want to throw it around in a nonspecific way ….. it is just a word game ……….

          • hiernonymous

            H: “A pretty common understanding of “love your neighbor as yourself” involves placing the interests and safety of your neighbor on a level with your own, and treating him with respect and concern.”

            You haven’t explained how this is inadequate for our purposes. Over to you.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “love your neighbor as yourself”

            i said that is an example ….. it is not the definition ….. if you mean the passage below from Matthew ….. then IN CONTEXT it does not mean what you are trying to make it mean …….. “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment” is the first FOUR commandments of the 10 commandments ……… it is a RESTATEMENT of the first four commandments ……. from Exodus …..

            20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
            20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
            20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
            20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
            20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
            20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
            20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
            20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
            20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
            20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

            AND “And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” …. is simply a RESTATEMENT of the last 6 commandments …….

            20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
            20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
            20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
            20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
            20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
            20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

            this is the “love” …. the AGAPE “love” that it is referring to in that passage ……. to love (in a social or moral sense) …. get that last bit … a MORAL SENSE ………….

            22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
            22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
            22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
            22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
            22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

            G25
            ἀγαπάω
            agapaō
            ag-ap-ah’-o
            Perhaps from ἄγαν agan (much; or compare [H5689]); to love (in a social or moral sense): – (be-) love (-ed). Compare G5368.

          • hiernonymous

            Yes, I understand agape. Which is perfectly consistent with the idea of placing the interests and welfare of one’s fellow man on a level with one’s own.

            As for unterpreting the great commandment as a simple consolidation of the first four, two comments:
            1) That’s an appealing inference, but it’s just an inference.
            2) It doesn’t matter. Jesus was explaining the guiding spirit behind the law. There’s no reason to think that either of his answers was limited to the letter of the ten commandments.

            Which takes us back to this idea of loving one’s neighbor as oneself: how else is love to be understood in this context, if not elevating his interests and welfare to be on one’s own plane?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … that is READING THE TEXT IN CONTEXT ….. and not PROOFTEXTING it and destroying its meaning ….. in fact ….. the passage says …. NOT BY “INFERENCE” ….. but ….. DIRECTLY …. the first and second GREAT COMMANDMENT ……. not “inference” ………

            …………… CONTEXT …….. which you want to IGNORE …………

          • hiernonymous

            The context is a challenge from the Pharisees to select the greatest of the laws. I don’t think that’s universally acknowledged to be limited to a discussion of the ten commandments, nor is his response universally acknowledged to be merely a categorizing of the commandments.

            I’m always open to learning new things, and I’m by no means an expert, so if you have a source you’d like to share that suggests differently, I’m all ears, so to speak.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
            22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
            22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
            22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
            22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

            hmmm … lets highlight what is being said and see what comes up …..

            22:36 Master, which is the great COMMANDMENT in the LAW? (so we are talking about the LAW, the 10 COMMANDMENTS are the MORAL LAW)
            22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (the first 4 of the 10 DEAL WITH OUR RELATIONSHIP TO GOD, so it is the 10 COMMANDMENTS)
            22:38 This is the first and great COMMANDMENTS. (GOD is the first thing mentioned, and here the 10 COMMANDMENTS AGAIN are mentioned and GOD IS ALWAYS the most important)
            22:39 And the SECOND is LINE UNTO IT, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (so since we ARE talking about the 10 COMMANDMENTS AND THE MORAL LAW, then we must be next referring to the REST of the 10 COMMANDMENTS and they ALL deal with our relationship to others)
            22:40 On these two COMMANDMENTS hang ALL THE LAW and the prophets.

            and IN FACT the word “LOVE” here or AGAPE ….. deals with and is defined as LOVE IS A MORAL SENSE ….. nothing to “infer” …… it is a DIRECT READING of the TEXT in CONTEXT …….

            the entire passage SCREAMS what it is about …..

          • hiernonymous

            But “the law” was considerably broader than simply the ten commandments. Since you’ve shown a mastery of Biblical linguistics, can you explain the koine Greek terms used for “commandment” and “law” in this verse, and show how they translate or are linked to the Hebrew in such a way as to exclude the rest of the law as the Pharisees would have understood it?

            “deals with and is defined as LOVE IS A MORAL SENSE”

            Sure. And reading this as “put your neighbor’s interests and welfare on a plane with your own” is perfectly consistent with that. It’s a moral exhortation, not a call for affection. How else could you understand it?

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            I for one am enjoying this conversation. I hope he doesn’t turn to stone on you and just respond with a series of “ignored”s like he does to others.

          • hiernonymous

            Thanks. It could be a productive conversation if he’s willing.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “If sinners will be damned, at least let them leap to hell over our bodies. And if they will perish, let them perish with our arms around their knees, imploring them to stay. If hell must be filled, at least let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions, and let not one go there unwarned and unprayed for. – C.H. Spurgeon.

            try that for a definition of “love” …………

          • hiernonymous

            Sure. “Tough love.” That’s not how I read a lot of your snark, but only you and God know for sure.

            And that’s sort of my point. Rather than insisting that you’re not a “real” Christian, I’ll simply point out some of the problems with wrath and leave it there.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you cannot even point to any “wrath” ….. so monumental FAIL ….. See ya ………

          • hiernonymous

            you cannot even point to any “wrath” ….. so monumental FAIL ….. See ya ………

            Emphasis added. Seems to be slipping in that direction, at any rate.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            zzzzzzzzz …… boring …………

          • hiernonymous

            So we need to add sloth to your list? Okay!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            boring ………… zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz …………….

          • hiernonymous

            I’m sorry – was I supposed to be entertaining you? Is your attention span long enough to make that realistic?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “So we need to add sloth to your list? Okay!”

            YUP …. BORING ….. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ………..

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            God gets angry and perturbed ….. so it is NOT a sin …. as God is sinless ……… FAIL ……….

          • hiernonymous

            It’s not a sin for God to be wrathful.

            There are a few reasons wrath is sinful. One is that the recipient may not deserve it. An omniscient God would not make such a mistake, as He knows what is in the heart of the recipient of his wrath. It doesn’t follow that you can be so discerning in your own anger.

            Another is that it involves wishing ill toward another. An all-merciful God wants perfect justice and mercy (and, being omniscient and omnipotent, can presumably reconcile those two in a way mortals would have problems with). It is His place to know best how to teach lessons, and know to whom those lessons are necessary. Trying to make yourself look clever online, or to belittle others, or to want to embarrass them – none of that would fall under His example.

            The logic “if God does X, then it’s okay for me” is pretty silly. You might disapprove of a lot of the things going on in Cairo, but you don’t get to blow up the Aswan High Dam and flood it. Just because God issued commandments doesn’t mean you get to, also. And don’t let’s get started on the precedent of impregnating another man’s fiance.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            no commandment to not ever get angry …. and you do not get to make it up as you go …. FAIL ……….

          • hiernonymous

            Where did I write that there was a “commandment” to not ever get angry? Careful – you’re slipping toward “bearing false witness,” and there is a commandment about that!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you did not … but you seem to think you can …. nothing in scripture about getting angry as a sin … so … NOT A SIN ……

          • hiernonymous

            Isn’t there? Apart from its inclusion as one of the seven deadly sins in the Catholic catechism, let’s see if we can find anything about it in scripture:

            From Galatians 5:

            19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

            20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

            21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

            Emphasis added.

            Matthew 5:22 tells us “But I tell you, that everyone who is angry with his
            brother without a cause shall be in danger of the
            judgment; and whoever shall say to his brother, ‘Raca!’
            shall be in danger of the council; and whoever shall say,
            ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of the fire of Gehenna.”

            Forgive me for anticipating – I can almost hear the keys clicking “but I have cause!” Keep reading the rest of the verse.

            Since I’m sure you want to be honest, careful, and righteous in your reading, make sure that you read what I actually said about wrath. If you’re posting to “win,” rather than to reach truth, that should give you pause.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i am not defending the RCC …. i do not defend what i do not believe ……. and you have shown NO WRATH …….. and no anger …. FAIL ………… you have your vain imaginings …. i do not care …………

          • hiernonymous

            Wait – you’re dodging!

            You said “nothing in scripture about getting angry as a sin.”

            I gave you two pieces of scripture that address anger as a sin.

            And – crickets on that?

            “and you have shown NO WRATH …….. and no anger …. FAIL ………… you have your vain imaginings …. i do not care ………”

            All caps is generally understood to be the online equivalent of shouting, a common symptom of anger. And as a general observation, “I do not care” is usually not indicative of happiness. I’m not trying to make a case that you’re committing a sin at this moment, but offering a general observation that the tenor of your online interactions seems pretty angry and judgmental, a combination which runs afoul of a pretty standard understanding of wrath as a sin.

            If your online hobby is going to be declaring groups of sinners to be other than Christian, that’s probably worth keeping in mind.

            You did say that you’d expect hearing the truth as a sign of love.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … wrath is not anger ….. and YOU have not shown that i am “angry” ……… so again …… FAIL ………… all you have are YOUR vain imaginings of what you think you read into what was written …. nothing more ……… FAIL ……….

          • hiernonymous

            As far as “proving” that you are engaged in the sin of wrath – I’m okay with your take. I’m not trying to prove that you’re guilty – I’m pointing out that, really, only you and God know for sure.

            But you DID defy me to produce scripture linking anger to sin – and I did so. And you’re still offering crickets on that. Why?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … you did not ….. Wrath is not anger ….. in scripture it is 2. vengeance or punishment as the consequence of anger …… and the sin of anger at a PERSON is MURDER …. that is what Matthew was pointing out ….. anger at SIN and the ACCEPTANCE of SIN and at the offences to God ….. NOT the samething … you are making category errors …………….

          • hiernonymous

            “…that is what Matthew was pointing out ….”

            Not exactly. He was pointing out that being angry enough to want to murder was sinful.

            “… anger at SIN and the ACCEPTANCE of SIN and at the offences to God ….. NOT the samething…”

            If that is, in fact, what one is angry at. That fits firmly into the “only you and God know the truth of that.” I’d infer that anyone who spends as much time in angry exchanges with others might have other issues going on as well.

            And you didn’t address the other verse I gave you, in which anger is discussed as one of the sins of the flesh. That would seem to be wrapped up pretty well with the sort of anger one experiences when one’s pride is challenged, or one wants to make sport of others online. N’est pas?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope …. it was pointing out that the level for entering heaven is SO HIGH ….. no man is capable of attaining it ….. that the mere thought is enough to keep us out ……. that looking at a woman with lust IS ADULTERY ….. that thought of anger at a person IS MURDER ….. and so forth …. and our ONLY avenue to God the Father and Heaven is with Christ as our savior ……….. “I’d infer that anyone who spends as much time in angry exchanges” …. sure …. now all you have to do is prove an angry exchange ….. and you have not …….. and anger at WHAT ……. anger at sin is no vice …… “in which anger is discussed as one of the sins of the flesh.” ….. you mean the one with “wrath” …. i certainly did ……. and again …. ANGER AT WHAT ……

          • hiernonymous

            …”that thought of anger at a person IS MURDER …”

            There you go.

            “…. and again …. ANGER AT WHAT ……”

            Did you miss my comment? Perhaps you’re typing too quickly, or too soon?

            As I noted, only you know what drives your emotions. I’m not trying to prove that they’re sinful. It’s not necessary – it’s Christian doctrine that all men are guilty of sin. There’s no need to pin a particular one on you to question the eagerness with which you denounce a particular sin.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “only you know what drives your emotions”

            saw it .. read it …. but then you seem to forget what you said ………..

          • hiernonymous

            Nope. We discussed inferences and judgment. Never forget the context of your original claim that there are no homosexual Christians.

            Just because you seem angry to me doesn’t mean that I know you to be sinfully so. As I said some time ago, only you and God know that.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Wrath

            noun
            1. strong, stern, or fierce anger; deeply resentful indignation; ire.
            2. vengeance or punishment as the consequence of anger.

            Guess you’re wrong again, Amos. Wrath IS anger.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            in the BIBLICAL CONTEXT ….. not your DICTIONARY CONTEXT ….. FAIL …………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Don’t tell me you still haven’t figured out that the dictionary is the tool we use to define words, and not the Bible?

            Let me ask you this, what do you think they use to translate the Bible from one language to another? Wouldn’t be the DICTIONARY, would it?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Don’t tell me you still haven’t figured out that the dictionary is the tool we use to define words, and not the Bible?”

            Don’t tell me you still haven’t figured out that GOD has defined words, and not the dictionary ….. in fact the first dictionaries were full BASED ON THE BIBLICAL TEXTS …….. so it seems you know nothing of HISTORY ………….

          • Silas Jennings

            God is not the definer of words either. Human beings use oral and written language and we are the ones who determine the unifying definitions. Not God. Not the Bible. The DICTIONARY is the tool for that. Which means that atheists and theists alike can be counted on to understand each other. Leave your religion out of it; it is not relevant here.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            GOD is the definer of EVERYTHING ……

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Even if I was your kind of Christian and believed God created everything, then no, he STILL doesn”t “define” anything. That’s why we have…dah dah dah….THE DICTIONARY!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you are not any kind of christian … so not sure what the point of your comment is ……….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            The point is right in front of your eyes. Other Christians find what you say to be just as absurd as what the atheists think.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            whoop – dee – do ………. SO WHAT ….. the truth IS OFFENSIVE ….. and you are too much of a child to accept the truth …………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            You aren’t in any position to talk about truth. You are utterly brainwashed with hate and crap.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you do not know the truth …….. the truth is alien to your being …….. if you knew and accepted the truth ….. then you would be here in a different capacity ….. you are not ….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Truth is that which can be proven and you have never done that.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … you have it BACKWARDS …. truth is not proven ….. it is the standard by which all else is measured …… there is no higher standard than the truth …… to say it has to be proven says that there is something higher …. and there is not ….. truth is either accepted or rejected …. and you reject it ………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Truth must be evident, otherwise it’s not truth. It isn’t something you are told by a holy book that you just accept. That is not how truth is defined.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            again … if it is not evident to you ….. there is nothing anyone here can do to cure your …. and it is YOUR ….. problem ….. if you need clarification of the truth …. then YOU need to seek the truth ….. in the PERSON OF CHRIST JESUS ….. and all we can do is GIVE you the truth …. which as of now …. YOU REJECT ……… and unless and until Christ alters YOUR condition ….. nothing more can be done …………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Given your made-up definitions for things, TRUTH among them, it should be obvious to anyone that it’s not ME with the problem. I know what truth is. To say the sun is going to rise tomorrow morning in the east is the truth. It’s based on a scientific principle and I can observe it every day of my life to know it’s the truth. You walking around threatening people with a holy book is not truth. Never was. Never will be.

            And by the way, the dictionary is your friend.

          • TruthvLIes

            If you dont know Jesus, you don’t know what truth is because he said that he was the way, THE truth and the life and anyone with common sense knows that is the truth.

            Only those in denial because they cannot handle the truth claim otherwise.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            You don’t know Jesus either. You know only intolerance and hatred.

          • TruthvLIes

            I think you had better book yourself in to see a psychiatrist as your comments are getting weirder by the day and make no sense whatsoever.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            You know as well as I do that a psychiatrist would probably just tell me to stop talking to Christian zealots.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            truth stands on its own and needs no “proof” ….. YOU need proof …. that is YOUR problem …. not anyone elses ………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            You don’t use the dictionary’s definition of “truth”, so why should anyone listen to you?

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “there are no ACTIVE MURDERER christians ….. there are no ACTIVE THIEF christians …… there are no ACTIVE ADULTERER christians”

            …there are no true Scotsmen…

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and more silliness from the peanut gallery ………… more of your category errors …….. here is a quarter … go buy another bag …..

        • TSawesome

          Amos, when did you make your personal choice to be heterosexual?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            we all choose our favorite sin ……. homosexuality was nty my favorite sin …. but i had others …. so what …….

          • TSawesome

            No, you didn’t ever “choose” to be heterosexual over homosexual. It wasn’t a temptation to you because human orientation is innate, a factor of the way God created us all. Some were created with orientation toward the same sex and some toward the opposite sex. That’s just part of humanity, all created in God’s image.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            the only thing innate about humans is their orientation to SIN ….. and nothing else …..

          • TSawesome

            How very Augustinian of you…

          • Nick Halflinger

            …et quid de nobis, fratres, qui inter faeces et urinam nascimur…

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Something something feces and urine. I hope it means something a little more substantial, haha.

          • Nick Halflinger

            “We noble brothers are born amid feces and urine”

          • ppp777

            There is no choice there , experience turns you reprobate .

  • ZappaSaid88

    Great job Aussies! Love wins, hate loses (again).

    • Amos Moses – He>i

      winning a ticket to early death ….. not much of a win ….. for love or anything else ………

      • Michael C

        Marriage leads to an early death?

        You’re going to have to back that assertion up with statistics ‘cuz I just don’t believe you.

        • Amos Moses – He>i

          being homosexual does …. a piece of paper does not alter the science ………. science that you have already been shown and rejected ………. so what would be the point …………

          • Michael C

            Gay people are gay regardless of whether or not their marriages are legally recognized by the government.

            The recognition of their marriages doesn’t shorten their lifespan. It very probably increases their lifespan, statistically speaking.

            You understand that, right?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Gay people are gay regardless of whether or not their marriages””The recognition of their marriages doesn’t shorten their lifespan”

            BEING homosexual shortens their life …..being homomarried does not alter that TRUTH …….

          • Michael C

            Simply being gay doesn’t shorten a person’s lifespan. That’s ridiculous and ignorant.

            Engaging in risky behaviors can shorten a person’s lifespan. Being gay isn’t a “risky behavior.”

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            YES it does …. as they are not just homosexuals ……. they PRACTICE ……….. and there is no reason to NOT PRACTICE in homomarriage …….. love does not harm to another …… but everything the homosexual does ….. does harm …. to themselves …. their partners ….. and society in general …..

          • Reason2012

            Being homosexual = homosexual behavior. Homosexual behavior = far greater risk of death.
            So yes, if someone never engages in homosexual behavior but claims to be a homosexual, just claiming it doesn’t shorten their lifespan. Pretending people are just claiming it and not engaging in it is what’s ridiculous and ignorant.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            You might need to hear this from several people, so be it. Being gay doesn’t reduce a person’s lifespan. If it’s specific sexual “activities” you are referring to, the same activities are just as harmful to heterosexuals who engage in the same thing.

          • Reason2012

            Heterosexuals do not engages with man on man_sex, which is the point. So no, heterosexuals are not affected by “the same activities”.

            Center for disease control government website reports in 2013/14

            Although homosexuals, or men who have sex with men (MSM), make up about 2% of the U.S. population, they account for 67% of “all new HIV diagnoses,” according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

            In addition, there are about 1.2 million people in the United States with HIV, the virus that causes AIDS, and an estimated 647,700 (54%) of those people are homosexuals, or MSM.

            The 67% of all new HIV cases is for 2013 and the 54% living with HIV is for 2011, the latest years, according to the CDC, for that particular data.

            Among some of the other facts about HIV/AIDS, reported by the CDC, are:

            — About 50,000 people become newly infected each year in the United States.

            — “More than 14,000 people with AIDS in the United States die each year.”

            — “More than 650,000 people with AIDS in the United States have died” since the epidemic started in the early 1980s.

            — “Men who have sex with men (MSM) remain the group most heavily affected by HIV in the United States.”

            — “White MSM continue to represent the largest number of new HIV infections among MSM (11,200), followed closely by black MSM (10,600)and Hispanic MSM (6,700).”

            — “The number of new infections among the youngest MSM (aged 13-24) increased 22 percent, from 7,200 infections in 2008 to 8,800 in 2010.”

            2014: 37,600 new HIV infections, 70% of them are because of male-to-male sexual contact. 2% of the population responsible for 70% of the cases of HIV. But the activists try to pretend that “being homosexual doesn’t reduce a person’s lifespan” or “heterosexuals are just as much at risk”, which only shows how determined they are to deceive. Read other sources, not just their talking points.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            -HIV attacks straight people as well as homosexuals. There are ways to protect against HIV and they work for people regardless of orientation. If more homosexuals are contracting the disease, it just means more homosexuals are not protecting against it.

            -Statistically, your numbers are irrelevant. More gay people than straight have HIV? That’s merely because more gay men are sexually promiscuous and don’t use the proper protection. Being gay has nothing to do with the numbers being what they are. If a monogamous gay couple takes the accepted precautions, they aren’t going to magically contract HIV. It doesn’t work that way.

            In fact there’s no point working through your list because it all comes back to the same point. We know what causes HIV, it doesn’t discriminate by orientation. Anyone can get it and everyone who takes the right precautions can avoid it.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “You might need to hear this from several people, so be it. Being gay DOES reduce a person’s lifespan.”

            If AIDS was the cause of death, the median age was 39 years old. For the 829 homosexuals who died of something else besides AIDS, the median age was 42 years of age, and 9% died old. Of 163 lesbians, the median age was 44 years of age, and 20% died old. 2.8% of homosexuals died violently and they were 116 times more apt to be murdered, 24 times more apt to commit suicide, and had a traffic accident death rate 18 times greater than comparably aged white males. 20% of lesbians died of murder, suicide, or accident, a rate 487 times greater than that of white females aged 25 to 44.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            And what do those stats mean, Amos? What are you trying to make them say? The original point was that being homosexual does not in and of itself make a person die young. That remains true. If they are being murdered by bigots or driven to suicide by bigots, those are outside factors unrelated to the orientation itself.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i do not have to make them say ANYTHING …… homosexuals DIE EARLY from ALL CAUSES …. “If they are being murdered by bigots or driven to suicide by bigots” … and that was not part of the study ….. but in fact most homosexuals are murdered by their “partners” ….. as with ALL MURDERS ….. the victim is usually known by the perpetrator ……….. a family member or “partner” ….. and suicide ….. blacks have suffered FAR more “bigotry” for being black and it is FAR more visible ….. and there is ZERO increase in suicide for that reason ….. so you are just trying to BLOW SMOKE up your own skirt …….. and you HAVE NO EVIDENCE …………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            I know several gay and lesbian couples and all of them have been together at least ten years. If I am to believe what you are writing they are statistically likely to murder each other or commit suicide. Or a killer disease is just going to show up and kill them, never mind that they have been completely monogamous and faithful to each other. Your problem is one of stereotyping, Amos. You want us to believe that all homosexuals are bed-hopping, disease-ridden hedonists living life for kicks. That shows how far you need to go before you earn the right to be taken seriously on this subject.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            anecdotal and So What …….. does not alter the fact they will die 10-20 years before their time ……….. and statistics taken from homosexual journals of causes of deaths in the obituaries of those journals is the evidence ………. not my problem …. theirs …. and your disbelief …. is your problem ….

            Obituraries numbering 6516 from 16 US homosexual journals over 12 years were compared to a large sample of obituaries from regular newspapers. The obituaries from the regular newspapers were similar to US averages for longevity, the median age of death of married men was 75, 80% of them died old, 65 or older. For unmarried or divorced men the median age of death was 57 and 32% of them died old.

            Married women averaged age 79 at death, 85% died old, and unmarried and divorced women averaged age 71, and 60% of them died old.

            However, the median age of death for homosexuals was virtually the same nationwide, and overall, less than 2% survived to old age.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Your stats continue to fail to prove that simply being homosexual reduces your lifespan.

            Regarding the LGBT couples I know, one of the lesbian couples are getting close to 70 and the gay couple reached 70 a while ago, so since they fly directly in the face of your garbage stats, I’d say you’re officially in the FAIL camp.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            it outright proves the statistics ….. that you want to REJECT as you REJECT all TRUTH ……… what else is knew ………..

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            All right, I will tell the living examples that completely blow your asinine statistics to hell that they are lying because Amos, who doesn’t know you at all but knows everything about you somehow, said so.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            GOD knows … GOD has declared …. and GOD told us about it …. and the statistics BARE THE TRUTH ……. and i really hope you do tell them …. maybe they will get the message … FINALLY ….. and you would be helping them out and you would be doing the work of Christ ….. THNX ……….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Why is it when the things you say get so totally blown out of the water do you suddenly attribute them to God?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            easy …. EVERYTHING is attributable to God ….. as GOD CREATED EVERYTHING ….. and it all belongs to HIM …. Science, Logic, Reason, ….. EVERYTHING ……… (psst ….. even you) ……

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Crock of beans.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            is that a scientific statement ……..

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            It’s a deep truth.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            it might be a deep “Crock of beans.” ……. but not much else ………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            You aren’t going to get anywhere with anyone by abandoning every single argument and pointing at a bunch of irrelevant scripture, or God.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            not my job to “get you” anywhere …….. you reject the truth ….. the scripture has done its job …. it drives you away …. not up to me to chase after a liar ……..

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            I don’t reject truth. I reject most of what you say which is in no sense “truth”.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you do not know the truth …………….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            You have zero authority to make such a statement. Sorry. FAIL

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you are at least absolutely correct in that … i have no authority to make up my own truth …. and neither do you ….. BUT ….. i am able to recognize the truth and state it ….. and truth does not have an internal locus ….. it comes from outside our being …… but you think it comes from inside you …… and you do not know it …….. Christ is the way, THE TRUTH, and the life ….. and you do not know Him …. you reject Him …..

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            No, because every time you are pressed about the truth, you either double down on something that is just your opinion or you abandon the discussion completely and say SCRIPTURE, even when it makes no sense.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you reject the truth … the truth is in scripture and Christ is the truth …. and again … you REJECT it ….. i abandon a fruitless conversation about truth to a person who will not accept truth ………. you will not accept Christ …. ¯_(ツ)_/¯ ……….. not my problem …. it is yours ……….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Any time you measure truth by your own opinions and ignore the simple dictionary definition of what the word means, you show everyone EXACTLY what the problem is, and it’s very much yours.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Oh boy, you’re not gonna win this one. I mean, you will, but Amos won’t see it that way.

          • ppp777

            They are reprobates , sodomites , they are anything but ” gay “

          • Kevin Canuckster

            Sadly, encouraging an institution that supports relationships that do dramatically reduce the lifespans ( 8-20 years) of the adherents, is not love.
            Those that suuport same sex relationships need to gain a deeper understanding of love.

          • Michael C

            Sadly, encouraging an institution that supports relationships that do dramatically reduce the lifespans ( 8-20 years) of the adherents, is not love.

            Firstly, the government doesn’t need to “love” me, it just needs to respect my freedom, rights, and equality.

            Second, simply being gay does not reduce a person’s lifespan.

            Lifelong pair-bonding increases life expectancy. As a culture, it would be wise to encourage lifelong pair-bonding.

          • Tangent002 ✓

            The average age of death of a homosexual is lower due to the prevalence of AIDS-related deaths, however, simply being homosexual doesn’t shorten one’s lifespan.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Let’s not forget the suicides brought on by people (often in religious circles) who promote guilt and shame.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            death from all causes EVEN if you ELIMINATE HIV/AIDS …..

    • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

      Right now it does seem as though sin is winning. For a short season it will continue to win.
      But in the end God wins.Nothing can stop God.

      • This style 10/6

        More and more jurisdictions are adopting same sex marriage. How do you explain that?

        • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

          I’m talking about God winning in the end.
          And I already said for a short season sin will win.This is only the beginning of what will seem as though sin wins.A lot more sins will win. and again only for a short season. In the end God wins.and you will not be able to stop God.

          • This style 10/6

            We are doing a pretty good job so far.

            Sin is something that only exists in the minds of certain groups. It is not a thing in itself; that is, homosexual acts are not “sinful”, they are merely sex.

          • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

            Yes you are doing a good job with your sins I agree. But again you will enjoy your sins for a short season.
            But in the end God wins over all your sins and all the sins of the world.
            Glory be to God knowing nothing can stop God.

          • Nick Halflinger

            Actually, folks will get to enjoy their sins until they die, then we will see – Nothing, Valhalla, Nirvana, or Heaven

          • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

            I hope God will let me see you and ask you two questions on the other side of life.

          • Nick Halflinger

            And if it turns out to be Valhalla maybe we will be sharing a tankard of mead.

          • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

            If God willing I will see you on the other side of life with my questions.

          • Nick Halflinger

            By the way, thank you for making the assumption that we will both be in Heaven

          • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

            As a Christian I believe you will one day face Christ. That would be the time I want to face you.Now if you repent and come to God through His Son than the questions I have would no longer be needed. Then I see you as a sister in Christ. That would be my greatest desire for you. With God all things are possible.

          • Nick Halflinger

            “With God all things are possible.”

            But not necessarily probable.

          • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

            According to you. And that’s because you are trying to be mean to me.

          • Nick Halflinger

            Yes, I took three days off. I am not obsessed with blogging every day. I am planning on being gone most of tomorrow and will probably not be posting.

            I am sorry that you feel that my not sharing your view of an omnipotent God distress you to the point of thinking that I am mean. Unfortunately, this probably means that you will find more than half the population of the planet are mean and unkind.

            As an aside, how should I interpret your hope to be sitting at Jesus’ side and personally questioning me on Judgement Day? That also seems both hubris and mean spirited.

          • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

            Thank you for giving me the three days before being unkind to me. Have a great day. Don’t spend the whole being unkind to the ones you hate. May the Lord God show you how to be kind to the ones you hate. Even though it’s not always fun to be kind to someone you hate,but give it a try. It may not be as bad as you think.
            Shalom

        • Amos Moses – He>i

          abandonment of truth … thats how ….. and scripture said it would happen … no surprises there ……..

          • This style 10/6

            I don’t think Australians bother too much about scripture.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ohhhh …. not blocked any more ….. there are some VERY GOOD churches in the outback ….. so i disagree ………..

          • This style 10/6

            The growing percentage of Australia’s population reporting no religion has been a trend for decades, and is accelerating. Those reporting no religion increased noticeably from 19 per cent in 2006 to 30 per cent in 2016. The largest change was between 2011 (22 per cent) and 2016, when an additional 2.2 million people reported having no religion. (Australian Bureau of Statistics)

            I would guess that a good part of the 52% calling themselves Christians are in fact, apathetics. Much like the US, Europe, etc.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and all that is happening all over the world ….. because God said it would happen ….. in scripture ….. SO WHAT ….. you are PROVING THE BIBLE CORRECT these days ……. THNX …. you make my job much easier ………

      • TSawesome

        Many Christians are gay. Nothing can stop God from making them.

        • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

          Many gays say they are Christian. The only thing I will say to you is that God knows the truth. I rely on God and His Word. What you say is what you say. What they say is what they say. What God;s Word says is the truth. You can not change God’s Truth. You can deny it and twist it. But you can not change it.

          • TSawesome

            Thank you for being respectful. I am a Christian and am a married lesbian. I believe that God created me just as he created you and that my marriage is blessed by God as I assume yours is as well.

            May we live together in peace as we all draw closer to Christ.

        • Amos Moses – He>i

          “Many Christians are gay.”

          contradiction in terms …. sorry ….

          • Nick Halflinger

            Do you mean that gay people not capable of believing in Jesus Christ?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            sure they are …. if they are a USED-TO-WAS ….. but as an I-AM-NOW …. no such thing …. God decides who is and who is not ….. we do not decide …. and NO MAN is capable of choosing God without God …… being a christian is not some intellectual assent to a few principles and mouthing words that you are ………. and if you think that is what it is ….. then you do not know what you are talking about …………

          • Nick Halflinger

            So if God alone decides if you are Christian, then belief in Jesus, going to church, or studying scripture are not required and are unimportant?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            the only way for us to come to belief in Christ is if the Father draws us to Him …… and until that happens ….. man has no ability to come to Christ in any real fashion ………. the rest of what you mention comes after that …………..

            John
            6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
            6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
            6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
            6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
            6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
            6:48 I am that bread of life.
            6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
            6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
            6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
            6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
            6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
            6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
            6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
            6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
            6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
            6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
            6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
            6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
            6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
            6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
            6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
            6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
            6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

          • Nick Halflinger

            “the only way for us to come to belief in Christ is if the Father draws us to Him”

            So, bottom line, I should just hang around the pool hall waiting for Him to call?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            So, the bottom line is ….. He will find you no matter where you are ….. IF you belong to Him …..

            He will not lose even one who belongs to Him ….. it is dependent on HIM and NOT on us …………. Sola Gratia …. Sola Fide ….. Sola Deo Gloria …….

          • Nick Halflinger

            Thanks! I’ve got to get back to hustling some marks. I am sure He has my number.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i know He does ….. that does not mean He is going to call …… but whatever ……….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            So according to you, a gay person can believe in Jesus Christ only if they become ex-gay. Which does not and cannot happen. So you’re condemning them all to hell.

          • TruthvLIes

            “they become ex-gay. Which does not and cannot happen”

            Huh? What fairy tale did you get that from? My brother is ex homosexual and has been for along time. He is happily married and has children. Are you telling me he is not allowed to be?

            When I told him what you said he fell down laughing. He doesn’t understand why he was duped into believing the lies of the rainbow warriors.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Your brother is living a lie. What he is doing will not last. I would bet my bottom dollar on it. Unless he has found a woman who is happy living a celibate life.

          • TruthvLIes

            Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha I am falling about on the floor with my brother laughing.

            So far it has lasted 28 years and will last another 28 at least, despite the fact that you cannot handle the truth which you are so desperate to deny.

            Tell me this. How does your wife produce two children if you are living a celibate life?

            I know you can’t handle the truth but the fact is he WAS LIVING A LIE until he gave it up for the truth.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Either your brother was never gay to begin with or he is living a lie now. It is as simple as that. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO “change”.

          • TruthvLIes

            When are you going to say something original instead of the denial claptrap that homosexuals are so fond of?

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            When are you going to stop spouting crap?

          • TruthvLIes

            Typical don’t bother me with the truth response.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            You have zero interest in truth. You like fairy stories which people tell you are truth.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            psst …. here is a clue for you …. we are ALL CONDEMNED to HELL ……….. thats why we are here …… and the way OUT of HELL ….. is to listen to the truth of God and be in agreement with Him ….. and you do not want that for them or yourself …… so the shoe is on YOUR FOOT for that ……. and there is not thing one i can do to change it …. except tell you the truth ….. that you REJECT ………….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            And why do you believe such offensive nonsense?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            why do you NOT ….. because you are “offended” ……….. the scriptures … offend …… EVERYBODY …… and you reject them because you are not really MAN enough to hear the truth ………. you are a child ………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            I am offended by stupidity. I am offended by people threatening me to believe hateful crap which they want me to believe is the will of their God. I will speak against such evilness all the days of my life.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope …. you are offended by the truth …. because you do not know the truth ….. and when it is presented to you ….. you reject the truth …..

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            There is nothing offensive about the truth, especially when it’s proven to BE the truth. But you never do that, and your idea of TRUTH is at variance to everyone else’s.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            again ….. you have it BACKWARDS …. truth is not proven ….. it is the standard by which all else is measured …… there is no higher standard than the truth …… to say it has to be proven says that there is something higher …. and there is not ….. truth is either accepted or rejected …. and you reject it ………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            You aren’t even DEFINING truth here. Do you not see that? You keep saying what it is and isn’t but you provide NO definition. For something to be the truth, it needs to have a proof behind it.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            the truth need no defense or “proof” ….. it is the truth ……… and i HAVE defined the truth ….. IT IS CHRIST ……… and IT IS SCRIPTURE ……… do YOU not see that ………. it has been stated several times …..

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            The truth needs a definition in order for it to be a word, Amos. You’re not even trying now.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            how can i put this …… i am a knight and you are a knight … i have a sword …. we have met on the battle field …. now from your point of view …. you say … “i do not believe in your sword, put it down as I do not believe in it and you have to prove to me its worth” ……. now i can put my sword down and we can have an at length discussion on metallurgy, and the physics of crafting my sword, and the tactics of battle and such things …… and then you will say again ….. “i still do not believe in your sword, put it down as I do not believe in it and you have to prove to me its worth some more” ….. or we can just get to the point ….. and we skip the conversation ….. and i take out my sword …… and i cut you to pieces …..

            and then the argument is over ….. and you either believe in my sword ….. or you die …. and all you seem to want to do right now ….. is talk after you have been hacked to pieces …. the truth is the truth ….. my sword is the truth of scripture ….. and you have not said one thing to make me put it away …. and you have no argument i cannot counter ….. as i have a two-edged sword ……. and you have your mouth ……………. for the moment ……

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            That’s really cute, now all that needs to happen is for you to recognize that you have got a sword at all. You have a rubber chicken which you walk around pretending is the most powerful sword out there. Everyone laughs at your rubber chicken but your pride and arrogance prevents you from acknowledging what you know is true.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “ow all that needs to happen is for you to recognize that you have got a sword at all”

            i do recognize it …. and so do you … and that is why you want it put away …… because you know it will cut you ……….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            It’s such nonsense you believe. You threaten with it, and no one in his right mind would believe it to start with. There is nothing else to say to you. I pity you.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            well if your are in your “right mind” …. then why are you here ….. i am sure you can find others like you here and there …….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Well, there’s nobody here EXCEPT YOU who believes that truth is self-evident and requires no definition nor proof. Explain that one. We all have dictionaries and know how to use them. And we don’t use the Bible as a book of word definitions…given the number of translations it is subject to I can’t think of a less suitable book for that purpose.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “here EXCEPT YOU who believes that truth is self-evident ”

            Declaration of Independence ………..
            “We hold these truths to be SELF-EVIDENT, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

            “truths to be SELF-EVIDENT” ….. “endowed by their CREATOR”

            yep …. no one here but us CRAZY ZEALOTS in AMERICA ……………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            “(THESE) truths to be self-evident” is not the same as “truth is self-evident”. Specific truths are being addressed in the Declaration of Independence. You aren’t doing that. You’re just using the word truth on its own…..lame.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you said that truth was not self evident to anyone but me ….. that is YOUR category error …. your problem …. and the reason it is not self-evident to you ….. is that you have a blindness to it ….. and only Christ can cure that ….. all we can do is SHOW you the truth …. PRESENT IT to you …… there is nothing to defend ….. if you do not accept it … again …. YOUR PROBLEM …… and above our pay grade …. so i have no idea what it is you think you are accomplishing here ………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            You are the only Christian here I see urging people not to use their dictionaries and telling people God chooses them rather than them choosing their religion. “This is a Christian board,” you’re so fond of saying, yet nothing you say could be less Christian in nature.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            people choose their religion all the time ….. it means nothing to God … God chooses His …. and no one else ….. SCRIPTURE …………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Scripture diesNOT state that God chooses His followers.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            it surely does ……… and you are ignorant of it ………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            It does NOT.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
            6:44 NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, EXCEPT the Father which hath sent me DRAW HIM: and I will raise him up at the last day.
            6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
            6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
            6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
            6:48 I am that bread of life.
            6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
            6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
            6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
            6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
            6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
            6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
            6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
            6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
            6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
            6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
            6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
            6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
            6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
            6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
            6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
            6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
            6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, THAT NO MAN CAN COME UNTO ME, EXCEPT it were GIVEN unto him of my Father.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            That isn’t what that passage means, Amos.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
            8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
            8:30 Moreover whom he did PREDESTINATE, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            1:4 According as HE HATH CHOSEN US in him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
            1:5 Having PREDESTINATED us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, ACCORDING TO THE GOOD PLEASURE OF HIS WILL, (not our will)
            1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
            1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
            1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
            1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
            1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
            1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
            1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Nobody would be stupid enough to believe a word of what you said, apart from the crazed zealot who upvotes everything you say.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            so if i am crazy ….. then that makes you crazy for holding a conversation with one …. does not say a whole lot about you ……

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            I just thought you might like to know.

          • hiernonymous

            You believe one must be angry to be Christian? Or sinless?

            Sounds like someone is falling prey to some of the seven deadlies….

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            there is no anger there …. you are reading what you want … not what it there ….. what is there is TRUTH …… why does the TRUTH make you angry ……..

          • hiernonymous

            You indcated that a Christian could not be gay.

            I wasn’t sure if you were referring to an emotional state or sexual orientation, so I asked you which condition prevented one from being a Christian.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            again …. contradiction in terms ….. there are no ACTIVE MURDERER christians ….. there are no ACTIVE THIEF christians …… there are no ACTIVE ADULTERER christians …… there is no such thing as a (fill in your sin here) christian …… there are no “sin modifier””hyphenated” christian ……… that does not mean christians are sinless …… it means that we agree with God WHAT SIN IS …… and that WE ARE SINNERS …….. and that we leave sin behind to the best of our ability as we agree with God ….. and saying you are a “homosexual christian” ….. is saying i can keep my sin and be somehow in agreement with God ……

            SORRY ….. that option is not on the table ….. we do not have the option of saying i agree with God “EXCEPT” ….. and have that be “okay” ………

          • hiernonymous

            But you have admitted that you are a sinner. It would seem, glancing through your posts, that you are guilty of some ongoing sins, unless you have become the first person to free yourself of that state?

            “….there are no ACTIVE MURDERER christians ….. there are no ACTIVE THIEF christians …… there are no ACTIVE ADULTERER christians …”

            On the contrary, there are nothing but. There are no Christians who have successfully freed themselves of sin and have thus earned salvation. There are Christians who admit that they are sinners, and ask for forgiveness. In the Catholic Church, the Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation is not a one-shot deal; it’s a recurring sacrament. It’d be interesting to see how many Christians have never confessed a particular sin more than once.

            If you are a sinner, and you continue to repeat your sins, how are you more deserving of the appelation “Christian” than one whose sins you do not share? You imply that it is because you don’t try to paint your sins as being anything other than sins, but you continue to commit them, so how is that different or better?

            It would seem to be an altogether more defensible position to say that you believe homosexuality is a sin, and to leave it to the Almighty to decide whether there are any “gay Christians” or not.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            saying you are an active sinner as part of your description of being a christian is a contradiction in terms …… not wanting to LEAVE that sin makes you NOT a christian ….. saying you are a lesbian WITH A “PARTNER” ….. and not wanting to leave that “PARTNER” ….. makes it a contradiction in terms ………. and NOT in agreement with God …….. sorry …. we you do not get to “agree but not agree with this bit right here” …. because i do not want to ……….. we either agree …. or … WE DO NOT ……….. agreement with God is not an option … it is an ULTIMATUM ………….

          • hiernonymous

            I suppose the question I have is – if the issue of agreement is between the individual and God, how did you get elected to decide the status of that relationship?

            “… saying you are a lesbian WITH A “PARTNER” ….. and not wanting to leave that “PARTNER” ….. makes it a contradiction in terms …..”

            Does it really? Or is it being sexually active with that partner that makes it a sin?

            We know that masturbation is quite widespread an repeated; Coon & Mitterer found that
            “[a]pproximately 70 percent of married women and men masturbate at least occasionally.”

            As these studies are conducted in overwhelmingly Christian countries, it’s reasonable to infer that the findings apply to the Christian populations of those countries. This suggests that, by your formulation, some 70% of Christians – aren’t!

            Then, of course, there are all of the divorced Christians. If they have not taken their spouses back, then they are not in agreement with God – so, sorry, no divorced Christians, either.

            Jesus told us to “love thy neighbor as thyself.” Now, we all get a little irritable now and then, and are less than polite to one another, especially online. But if you haven’t gone back and apologized to the people you snarked at, and if you continue to be a lil’ snarky, well, you are not in agreement with God, and are not a Christian. So we’ve lost all the gay Christians, the divorced Christians, the more-than-one-time masturbatory Christians, the snarky Christians.

            It’s starting to look like a pretty exclusive club. Somehow, I don’t think that’s what He had in mind. So, again, perhaps you’d be better off that you think of X as a sin, according to your own limited understanding of scripture, and leave the decisions on who is and is not a Christian to, say, someone who actually knows what is in the hearts of those individuals?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “how did you get elected to decide the status of that relationship”

            “I” did not ….. GOD DID ….. very simple …. why? why did He do that ….. without my permission …… ¯_(ツ)_/¯ ……

            “is it being sexually active with that partner”

            it is outside of what God has ordained and declared marriage to be …… and so it is not in agreement with God ………..

          • hiernonymous

            “…it is outside of what God has ordained ”

            What is the “it” in this sentence? Please be specific.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            homosexuality and anything connected to it ……… including homomarriage ………..

          • hiernonymous

            Okay, so let’s take a look at that. There are several different behaviors you’re lumping together. Let’s limit it to these:
            1) Sexual activity between two members of the same sex.
            2) Marriage between two members of the same sex.
            3) Love between two members of the same sex.
            4) Cohabitation betweeen two members of the same sex.

            What is the Biblical basis of your objection to the last two?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ok … FIRST …. not “MY” objection …. it is GODS objection …… but i am in agreement with Him ….. SECOND …. it is not one or two …. it is ALL …… especially when you do not want to define “cohabitation” …… what do YOU mean by that …….. and again ….. THIRD ….. you want to throw the word “love” around as if it has one meaning ….. and you want to play word games with it …… agape, philios, storge, eros …… among others ….. YOU are the one ” lumping together” …………….

          • hiernonymous

            “… especially when you do not want to define “cohabitation””

            How’d you infer that I “do not want to define” it? The term is pretty clear, and its contrast with the other three categories makes it even more so, but if you still find it ambiguous or confusing, all you have to do is ask. It’s not like I’m going to tell you that there were 8 different words for “cohabitation” and I insist that you figure out which one I mean.

            Here’s the definition I’m using: “a :to live together or in company”

            I’m specifically not using it to mean “having sexual relations,” as that’s already addressed above.

            Not sure why you asserted I didn’t want to address that.

            “THIRD ….. you want to throw the word “love” around as if it has one meaning ….. and you want to play word games with it …… agape, philios, storge, eros …… among others .”

            Well, no. Since the verse in question only used agape, and the English translation of “love” in that context is perfectly clear and understandable, why would you infer that I’m throwing in eros? Where did I write “you shall boff your neighbor as yourself?” And how in the world could you even know what the terms you’re using mean and suggest “storge” for a form of love directed at “your neighbor?” You’re simply trying to be evasive. Remember that “false witness” commandment!

            I’ll reissue my invitation – what was it, exactly, that I wrote about the meaning or implication of that commandment that is inconsistent with the original Greek?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “How’d you infer that I “do not want to define” it?”

            ummmm …. because you did not ………. easy ….

          • hiernonymous

            That’s not honest.
            Should I infer that you don’t want to define “easy” – because you didn’t?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i do not do inference … it leads to deception and misunderstanding ….. but that does seem to be what you are going for …………

          • hiernonymous

            H: “How’d you infer that I “do not want to define it?”
            A: “ummmm …. because you did not ………. easy ….”
            A, one post later: “i do not do inference …”

            Come again?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … YOUR word was inference …. i did not have to INFER a thing …. YOU did not define it ………….

          • hiernonymous

            Two observations:
            1. Of course you had to infer something. The only observable fact in play is that I did not offer a definition of a word on its first use in the conversation. You added an element not in evidence – that I was unwilling to do so. That’s an inference. If you need to look up the word to make sure you understand why this is, I can wait.
            2. I asked you how you drew your inference, and you responded “because you did not.” If I ask you why you did X, and you respond “because you did not do Y,” then it’s unsupportable to return later and say “wait, I never did X.” Your response says that you did.

            And, of course, my response was a lesson to you in the strength – or lack thereof – of your reference. The simple fact that one does not do something is not evidence of one’s unwillingness or unreadiness to do that thing, unless there were a compelling reason that it should have already happened. As I already noted, the word has pretty straightforward definitions, and the context I employed was sufficient for a reasonably intelligent and alert native speaker of English to understand which meaning was in use. And, of course, as soon as you expressed uncertainty, I supplied that definition.

            Applying your own logic, the fact that you didn’t define “easy” implied that you were unwilling to define “easy.” That’s absurd, of course – and that’s the point.

            At this point, implying that I was unwilling to do so would be bearing false witness. Remember, you get angry at sins, so you don’t want to do that. Deflecting in an online argument isn’t carte blanche to ignore those commandments.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i do not have to “infer” anything to see what you plainly did not include …..

          • hiernonymous

            But you didn’t limit your claim to “you plainly did not include.”

            You extended your claim to “especially when you do not want to define….”

            It’s not common practice to define all of the words used in a post here. Drawing the conclusion that not doing so displays some sort of unwillingness is quite plainly an inference.

            I infer from your reflexive denial that you do not understand what an inference is. You seem to think it something pejorative. To infer is simply to draw a conclusion, which you have plainly done.

            infer. transitive verb
            1 :to derive as a conclusion from facts or premises
            we see smoke and infer fire —L. A. White
            — compare imply
            2 :guess, surmise

  • BuckeyePhysicist

    Heterophobia wins again.

    • Lexical Cannibal

      🎶You’re so vain, you think my friend’s gay marriage is about you.🎶

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        ARMY LIFTING BAN ON BIPOLAR, SELF-MUTILATING RECRUITS ‘A RED FLAG’
        ‘This was a decision made by people from the Obama admin, not Trump’

        direct result of homomarriage ………..

        and the insanity continues ….. it has become airborne …… like a plague …… and all those who said “how does “gay marriage” affect you in any way” ….. THIS IS THE INSANITY that we are now embracing ……. THIS is what becomes of such FOOLISHNESS as homomarriage ……… THIS is what comes from the embrace of DEPRAVITY …………

        • Tangent002 ✓

          The Army’s recruiting woes are because no-one wants to sign up for a series of imperialistic wars. It has nothing at all to do with same-sex marriage.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            sure ….. whatever you need to tell yourself ………

          • Tangent002 ✓

            Do you think there is a ‘shortage’ of recruits because heterosexuals have stopped breeding due to same-sex marriage?

        • Lexical Cannibal

          You are…….a couple……of planks away from……….bridging the acceptance of equal marriage…………….With the Army’s apparently…..un…re…lated………revision of its mental…..health policy. A revision that I’m both generally against and fail to see as exclusively causal and also how do you type like that? It’s even more annoying to write than it is to read, and I only did it the one time for yucks. Is this some internet version of self-mortification? I never did get that about you.

          • Trilemma

            Amos likes to use free verse poetry.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Haiku ………. Hi ku you too ……

      • mr goody two shoes

        No it about not wanting you or your friend in hell. Even if you don’t believe in such a place for now or that your both are headed that way.

        • Lexical Cannibal

          Cosmic threat noted. I’ll let my gods know that Yaweh still won’t play well with others.

        • ThroatwobblerMangrove

          Where in your Bible does it say that? I don’t see it in mine. Maybe your interpretation is faulty, or over the top, or possibly just meaning what you want it to mean.

      • TruthvLIes

        no one is complaining about happy people getting married. The issue is whether homosexuals should trash marriage as we know it.

        • Lexical Cannibal

          By….getting happily married?

          • TruthvLIes

            Homosexuals…happily married? What is your next joke.

            Their average relationship is two years. Divorce lawyers are going to have a field day.

            73% of homosexuals have sex on the side weekly with another homosexual. Why if they are happily married? Don’t think so. It is all pie in the sky.

          • Lexical Cannibal

            Right, so first of all, gonna slap a big ol’ [citation needed] on that.

            Secondly, if those numbers are even accurate, they’d be pretty comparable to straight people. A 1991 study by Shere Hite found that 70% of married women had affairs, with a follow-up study two years later putting that number at 72% for men. Various sources put the average length of a relationship at ~2-4 years, with a 2017 study by Nationwide putting it at 4.2 years, though that was a study focusing specifically on English people in their 20’s. It’s worth noting that either of these statistics are really hard to nail down due to the cloudy nature of the subject matter (infidelity especially!), to say nothing of what any halfway decent sociologist could do to you for comparing a minority population to the majority without adjusting for factors of that interaction.

          • TruthvLIes

            Fairy stories.

          • Lexical Cannibal

            So the numbers you pulled from your posterior sphincter are the real facts and the numbers I gave actual citation for are fairy stories? What’s next, “heads I win, tails you lose?”

          • TruthvLIes

            Something like that as the homosexual cause is based on lies full stop.

          • Lexical Cannibal

            Ah, so you’re one of those “if I’m wrong, then the data’s wrong” types, got it. Well, have a nice life, I guess!

          • TruthvLIes

            As asinine as you can get.

    • Tangent002 ✓

      How is legal same-sex marriage ‘against’ heterosexuality?

      • Kevin Canuckster

        Try being a heterosexual wedding photographer or wedding cake baker!

        • Tangent002 ✓

          What does sexual preference have to do with either of those professions?

        • TSawesome

          If you operate a *public* business, you have to serve all of the public equally. That’s just the law.

          If they feel that they must discriminate, they can become a private, members-only, *non-public* serving business by turning in their business license and never selling to the public.

          • Lark.62

            Yes. And a photographer or baker who happens to be an atheist must treat christians like any other customer. Same product choices, same pricing, same quality of service. If a christian wants a cake to celebrate a marriage or a baptism or a first communion, the baker would bake a cake as requested, and deliver it to a church if that service is provided to others.

            The only difference is that christians are protected everywhere in the country while in most places gays are not protected from discrimination.

          • TSawesome

            Exactly. Public business? Then we serve the public, which is everyone… even people we don’t like, agree with or who are significantly different than ourselves.

          • ppp777

            Again you have an answer , in truth you should be put to death , under the law of course .

          • TruthvLIes

            No you don’t. You serve your customers and you decide who they should be.

          • TruthvLIes

            Wrong. The owner of a business regardless of what his religion is, can refuse to sell anything to anyone.

            No one discriminates against happy people and very few people discriminate against homosexuals. That is a beat up by militant homosexuals to enable them to claim victim status.

          • Lark.62

            Are you seriously that uninformed? Really? Did you just move to the US from Siberia or something?

            The Civil Rights Act of 1964 has been around for over 50 years. You might want to catch up.

            Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964:

            All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, and privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.

            Exception – “private clubs” can discriminate.

            Note – “A place of public accommodation” is very very broad. If the business “engages in commerce” and any person from another state might purchase or use the product or service, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 applies to them.

            The owner of a business cannot refuse to sell a product or service to a person because they a Christian. Christians have been fully protected from religion based discrimination for over 50 years and you never noticed? How special is that?

          • TruthvLIes

            In my country there is no Civil Rights Act.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            What country is that? There might not be a Civil Rights Act, but in a lot of places there is at least some sort of anti discrimination law in effect.

          • TruthvLIes

            If you had looked at the title of this article you would have seen it referred to Australia and that is what the conversation is about.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Yes, I know it’s about what’s going on in Australia, I just didn’t know if that was where you are from. I’ve looked into it a little bit, and there are anti-discrimination laws in Australia. For one example, there’s the Racial Discrimination Act of 1975, which applies to public businesses (much like the US Civil Rights Act). So, your statement elsewhere that a business owner can refuse to sell to anyone is not true in Australia either.

          • ppp777

            You children of Belial always have an answer for everything however perverse the situation

          • TruthvLIes

            Having taught consumer law, no one has to sell anything to anyone. Any item is offered for sale, but the seller has the right to decide who buys.

            I used to manage a Union Sports Shop and if a person came in who was not a union member I could refuse to serve him.

          • Nick Halflinger

            True, however, if he was a Christian, then the Civil Rights Act of 1964 means you had to serve him. You might determine some ground on which to refuse service, but discrimination based solely on those protected classes is against the law.

          • TruthvLIes

            We don”t have a Civil Rights Act.

        • james blue

          The issue there is big government anti discrimination and public accommodation laws–the same laws that make it illegal to refuse goods and services to us— not gay marriage.

          • TruthvLIes

            Who is US?

        • TheKingOfRhye

          A lot of heterosexual photographers and bakers have no problem serving same-sex couples.

  • Trilemma

    The issue is whether or not same sex marriage should be legal and not whether or not it’s moral. Legally, there’s no reason same sex marriage should be illegal. Those who believe same sex marriage is immoral should convince others to change their behavior through teaching and not try to change people’s behavior by force of law. The purpose of the law is to protect rights; not to impose morality.

  • Lexical Cannibal

    I find a special kind of schadenfreude in the idea that the same general American demographic mourning the decline of sexual morality is the same group that’s trying to ignore the mounting evidence of Roy Moore’s pedophilia, while trying to forget what their president said about his ability to commit sexual assault.

    If your version of sexual morality means that consenting gay couples can’t get married, but skeevy old men get off scott free, then ashes to ashes, I’ll send flowers.

    • Kevin Canuckster

      Two wrongs don’t make a right.

      • Nick Halflinger

        Then, why as Lexical stated, are so many evangelicals not speaking-out against both Moore and Trump?

        • This style 10/6

          Over on Disqus at the Faith and Religion channel one of the most rabid evangelicals in defending Moore.

          Go figure.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            That’s Lady Checkmate’s haven of hate. I’d avoid her at all costs if I were you, she’s bad juju. In fact I’m amazed you are there are all, hasn’t she banned you? Willing to be she will.

          • This style 10/6

            Oh, I was banned long ago. Sometimes her headline intrigues me and I take a look.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            She is a major topic of discussion at Fundies Say the Darndest Things (fstdt dot com).

          • This style 10/6

            I haven’t looked at t hat for a long while. She is a natural!

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            She does show up here, but only to upvote the worst and most bigoted comments. She doesn’t venture out of the areas she can completely control too often.

      • Lexical Cannibal

        See, that only works if you think both of these things are wrong. From my end, it looks a lot like a bunch of half-baked moralists picking fights with one hand and frantically trying to hush up their own wrongdoing with the other. It’s more like the least-generous version of “do as I say, not as I do,” from this side.

    • mr goody two shoes

      Is that why the cigar welding Clinton the molester of young women interns was elected not once but twice by your side?

      • TSawesome

        Why don’t you answer the allegations against DT vs. always deflecting to Clinton?

      • Lexical Cannibal

        Actually…
        This isn’t the only time. Roy Moore was banned from an Alabama mall once for, wait for it, making advances towards teenagers. A woman has produced his signature on her yearbook from a time when he would have been an adult, while she was a teen. Times and places are being corroborated, there is actually a somewhat impressively credible pile of evidence, considering it’s not legally actionable.

        And, look, if you want to throw mud, maybe let’s try to remember that the sitting Republican President once bragged about his ability to sexually assault women, using vulgarity that would get me banned from this site, and when confronted by it, couldn’t even bring himself to apoligize for it, or admit that what he said was wrong. This is not exactly a high moral position to be working from.

  • Mark0H

    They can vote to affirm that 2 + 2 = 5,
    but it still isn’t.

    Idiots.

  • Allan Trenholme

    Wow, for a Christian site this is sure a popular place for so many non-Christians and their comments. smh

    • TimothyJ

      Yep it sure is. I think non-Christians go out of their way to argue and try to instill doubt and anger in Christians.

    • mikegillespie

      Haters gotta hate.

    • Maxwell Edison

      That’s because the mod tolerates it.

      • Allan Trenholme

        On the positive side… its our opportunity to pray for God to bring them into His Kingdom. If they want to hang out here then we can pray for them… the more the merrier, now thats exciting!

        • ThroatwobblerMangrove

          I personally look forward to the day when the churches do a little housecleaning and toss out long-held, ancient, irrelevant bigotries.

          • Allan Trenholme

            Thank you for your input ThroatwobblerMangrove… you are now on my prayer list. God bless!

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Not necessary. Pray instead for those you make no effort to understand.

          • Truth first

            He may just understand exactly where you’re at, T.
            Are you a Christian or just trolling?

          • Truth first

            How do you mean that, T? Do you want Churches to clean up their act and toss out everything that is not Biblical, like covert or overt acceptance of GLBTI advocacy? Or would you say that this topic is NOT important?

    • ThroatwobblerMangrove

      I wouldn’t say that. You shouldn’t assume all Christians oppose same sex marriage.

      • ppp777

        There is no such thing , it is an oxymoron .

        • ThroatwobblerMangrove

          Well, it’s the law now and happens whether you like it or not. Enjoy your oxymoron.

      • Eldrida Urika

        Has anyone here realized that the marriages between two of the same gender is not the sin? If they were not already sinners for their sexual activities, the question of marriage is mute? So since we have to expect sinners to sin, and one sin is not greater than another, I do not think getting married will change their life into a worse sin. So why do we fuss about this? We expect them to be punished no matter if they get married or not. It is the actions of non believers and we don’t need to get upset about this since their first sin has already forged their fate. Why get so worked up about a sinner sinning? They do not believe so why not do what Jesus did and leave them to their fate and leave them alone to “wallow” in their sin?

        • Firstly, what we need to be clear about is that there’s no such thing as marriage between two persons of the same sex. So-called “gay marriage” is an invention from the mind of man, and represents utter confusion, in stark contrast to the order of the God-given institution of marriage between one man and one woman. This invention is essentially rebellion against God, and despising His order, which is sin.

          You point out, quite rightly, that entering into this invented institution is just a continuation of a sinful trajectory. And you ask the question, why do we fuss? The answer is that many Christians are concerned that, once this fabrication becomes law, that Christian ministers and celebrants will be compelled to condone it. If they aren’t compelled to do so, many still fear that the corrupting influence of this fresh departure from the natural order by men in general will get into the Church subtly, and the result will be the same without compulsion. Sadly, Christendom is full of formal and rigid structures purporting to be churches, and because of their formalism, rigidity, and legal status in the law of the land, they’re vulnerable to the intrusion of secular ideas of the worst kind.

        • Truth first

          I think Grant has got a point there, Eldrida.

          Main problem is that an utterly ungodly, rebellious institution has been created by man under the same banner under which God’s union between one man and a woman goes.

          And yes, there will be Churches who either reject it and will get punished for it by law, or will accept it and in doing so endorse one of the biggest abominations of our time. Ever. God will punish those in churches who advocate for the adulteration of God’s creation, without any doubt.

          This topic is important enough to split a church!
          We have seen this with African Anglican churches opposed to the emancipation and justification of gays in the Church, who have split from the greater body. And rightfully so! Unity without truth is of no value whatsoever!

          Watch this space: after the acceptance of homosexuality what is next will be the legalisation of pedophilia.

    • ppp777

      Because in their hearts they know its true .

      • ThroatwobblerMangrove

        You don’t know what other people think. And you never will.

        • ppp777

          What comes out of your mouth and your actions is enough for me and God certainly knows , and he call people like you ” fools ” , and that makes it absolute .

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            No. You do not and cannot know what others think. And you don’t speak for God either.

          • ppp777

            The bible does and that is what he call the likes of you .

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            All you’re doing is taking the things you hate and saying God hates them too. That’s lame.

          • Eldrida Urika

            One thing you missed. Jesus told us that many sinners will turn to Jesus, and to leave sinners alone so they will not turn away because of our behavior. So keep it in mind that every sinner is a potential Christian like Jesus said in the scriptures.

          • Eldrida Urika

            The Christians who are on this board often act without Christian attitudes and yet they are allowed to be rude to others, so if you consider people telling their point of view a problem then prove you are a Christian by showing the Fruit of the spirit instead of demeaning them. Love, Joy, Peace, Long-suffering, Gentleness, Goodness, Faith, Meekness and temperance: these are how we are supposed to know each other as Christians. I have a hard time finding the Christians here because they do not show these at all.
            Maybe if we treated them like we want to be treated they might not fight back and we could tell them more about Jesus instead of making all Christians look like we are not good people. If Christians act badly towards someone, you have to expect them to treat you the same way.

          • Nick Halflinger

            Matthew 5:22 – “Whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”

  • TimothyJ

    Just a thought, but why do you think all these leftists, lgbtqrxyz and other strange anti-truth folks are so fond of Islam and will go out of their way to support and defend it when that political system disguised as religion is very strictly intolerant of their views and lifestyle? Could it be they all work for the same boss? That being said, nearly all nations that once called themselves Christian but who have turned from God are now being invaded and overrun by foreign peoples who WILL impose their laws given time. Blind, blind they all our in their rejection of God. This is of course good news for true Christians but very sorrowful news for the world.

    • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

      Amen.

    • TSawesome

      Many LGBT people *are* Christians.

      • mikegillespie

        No way.

        • TSawesome

          Yes way. I’m living proof! 🙂

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            They appear not to know about churches like the Metropolitan Community Church.

          • ppp777

            ” Church ” , a church of satan more like .

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            And they would say exactly the same about you. No True Scotsman fallacy.

          • ppp777

            The bible and logic is on my side , neither is on their side .

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            No True Scotsman fallacy. They don’t become any less Christian just because you hate them.

          • ppp777

            That is almost a straw man argument , they are certainly not Christians because what they believe and do , hence that is why I hate them , as I said the bible and logic is against them .

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Please tell me what definition of what a Christian is which they are violating to the point that they have annulled their Christianity.

          • TSawesome

            You are breaking Christ’s direct commandment to LOVE, not hate, your neighbor — who is *everyone*.

            Judging others is not your job. That belongs to Christ alone. Not for you to decide if someone is a Christian. Not for you to decide if they should live or die. NOT FOR YOU.

      • ppp777

        Another oxymoron .

    • james blue

      What makes you think they are fond of Islam?

    • ThroatwobblerMangrove

      “Anti-truth”.

      The language you choose gets more and more detached from reality.

      • TimothyJ

        Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.
        —Miyamoto Musashi

        • ThroatwobblerMangrove

          No one consciously opposes truth. That’s silly. Why would they?

        • Nick Halflinger

          Miyamoto Musashi – You are quoting a 16th century, atheist, Buddhist, samurai swordmaster concerning truth to justify your interpretation of first century Christian writings as applied to current people with whom you don’t agree.

    • TheKingOfRhye

      I’m a leftist I guess, but I’m no more “fond of Islam” than I am fond of any of the other religions I don’t believe in.

      • TimothyJ

        I like your reply, it is both restrained and honest. To you I extend my apologies for my hasty and judgmental words.

        • TheKingOfRhye

          I suspect the reason some Christians think people like me are “fond of Islam” is that they think Christianity should have some sort of special, preferred treatment. I’m a secularist; I want all religions to be on equal standing. (as well as those of no religion, of course)

  • mr goody two shoes

    And in Norway hundreds of people have helped God save themselves by making a decision to believe in Jesus. All thanks and honor to Graham and God and them selves. What’s wrong with these two pictures one in Australia and the other in Norway?

    • Tangent002 ✓

      Same-sex marriage has been legal in Norway since 2009, and well before that Norway recognized same-sex registered partnerships.

  • mr goody two shoes

    This really is
    No worse than despising infant baptism or despising being saved by Christ alone and not by a decision you make. Or any other sins . they all break the first commandment and break any commandment the bible says you break them all. When you do not listen to what God says then your realy a god unto your self. Your setting your self up as god over God.

  • This style 10/6

    Quite a few folk here getting worked up about another country extending marriage to same sex couples. I think a lot of the vitriol is because steadily, country by country it is expanding. I mean, who would have thought Ireland (not the benighted northern bit) once called more Catholic than the pope, would vote for same sex marriage. Now Australia has joined the club.

    The real source of there anger is that they can do nothing about it once it becomes legal. They can complain of course but that won’t make same sex marriage go away.

    Another thing i notice is that the hate is all about male same sex marriage; no one seems to notice that females probably marry more than males. The Premier of Ontario is a married lesbian aand no one in Ontario gives a hoot. (Well there are a few!)

    Who knows, one day Russia, Saudi and other medieval jurisdictions will join up too.

    • zeddicuskotor

      In 50 years these same churches will be in favor of gay marriage and will conveniently forget this era where they were intolerant bigots.

      Same thing happened 50 years ago. Opposition against interracial marriage was widespread in churches at the time. Now it’s just 10% of the population and no mainstream church is that racist.

      Social progress forces churches to progress as well. Conservatives are just annoyed by this because their ideaology is fear based. They need targets to fearmonger on and the list of acceptable targets keeps shrinking.

      • MCrow

        Women’s rights is another area where we can still see the progress slowly slipping into ideology. Before that it was anti-Semitism, before that it was slavery…

        The list goes on. I think Christianity was progressive at it’s conception, but it’s been 2000 years and it hasn’t aged well

        • ppp777

          Because it has been rejected for ideology’s

          • MCrow

            Ideology’s what? You can’t use a possessive without an object.

            If you mean ‘ideologies,’ then yes, it has. And…your point? Christianity is fading because it is failing to be relevant in a culture where it cannot impose it’s fear and ignorance. The more information has become readily available, the more Christianity fades. The fact that many Christians are anti-science, anti-LGBT, anti-abortion, anti-birth control…anti-many things, but not for anything, shows that they simply use fear as a method to enforce compliance. If religion wants to continue, it needs to figure out why people are leaving it behind.

          • ppp777

            Where does anyone with two brain cells and above begin to the response you have just given , you have to be one of the most deluded individuals I have ever come across , you are a total reprobate and certainly [ unless I am very very wrong ] heading for hell , you are beyond redemption , if I thought I could get through to you I would , but you are clearly a case of ” don’t throw things that are holy to the dogs , do not cast your pearl before swine lest they rent you and trample them under foot ” , I very much hope I am wrong but I very much doubt it .

          • MCrow

            You could start by making an actual argument instead of ad hominums

          • ppp777

            You start by thinking critically [ if your capable ] .

          • MCrow

            “You’re”

    • MCrow

      Society marches on

  • mr goody two shoes

    When the church or the state go against each other in declaring what’s the right thing is .society begins to break down and becomes divided against each other. And the division grows and eventually civil war not peace breaks out.

    • zeddicuskotor

      Nope. What happens is that society progresses past the bigotries inherited in churches to the point where the churches either die off from lack of parishioners or update their dogma to match current social trends. That sort of thing happens constantly.

    • Tangent002 ✓

      Right. Because that’s exactly what happened after the Loving v. Virginia decision.

    • TSawesome

      Drama, much?

  • mr goody two shoes

    Australia won’t last half the time of Rome and just like the Roman empire. it will be in rubble. and these so called mighty leaders will be dead in a few short years. But The word of the Lord indurith forever.

    • Tangent002 ✓

      The Fall of Rome didn’t begin until after same sex unions were forbidden.

    • TSawesome

      Spell-Check “endureth” forever…

  • Vince

    Pause and consider the words Peter used to conclude the Pentecost sermon:
    “Saved yourselves from this perverse generation” (Acts 2:40).

    The word translated “perverse” is the Greek skolias – literally, it means “crooked” or “bent.”

    Stop and compare Peter’s audience with our own disgusting generation.

    • TSawesome

      Hmmm.

      You think that two people who commit to each other for life in Fidelity, Love and Faithfulness is “disgusting”?

      Wow.

      • Vince

        Love and fidelity have nothing to do with homosexuals.

        Btw, if reading stuff you don’t agree with upsets you, I suggest you stick with blogs you agree with. No need to stress yourself by finding out that people don’t all see the world exactly as you do. When you troll a Christian blog, you just might run a Christian or two.

        • TSawesome

          Excuse me? I’m here to discuss. You seem immediately overly upset that I don’t share your views. That does not make me a troll, so what are you doing now?

          If you don’t want to talk to me, don’t. A public forum is for exchanging ideas, respectfully.

          • Eldrida Urika

            Exactly! It is not always easy to find another poster that wants to discuss without stones being thrown. There are a few here that freak out when you prove them wrong, and so they call me evil even though I quoted scriptures..
            Good luck finding someone to discuss. I prefer to discuss but others here often refuse if you’re opposed to their personal beliefs, or even if you have a different religion they insist one is right and one is wrong. Good to meet a person that likes discussion! Blessings!

          • TSawesome

            Thanks, Eldrida 🙂

        • Lexical Cannibal

          Hey there, Bisexual man here, reporting in from his 14+yr. monogamous relationship. I guess my love and fidelity don’t count? Or do I get a pass, since I’m only “half gay?”

          • TSawesome

            Thank you, Lex! Married lesbian here and also completely, happily monogamous! 🙂

        • Michael C

          No need to stress yourself by finding out that people don’t all see the world exactly as you do.

          If this is your philosophy, why did you read this article?

          You’re the one who came to this website to read an article complaining about a bunch of people who don’t see the world exactly as you do. Why stress yourself out like that? Maybe you should only read articles about people who see the world exactly as you do.

          • TSawesome

            Thank you, Michael!

      • Reason2012

        So if an 18 year old girl and her dad “commit to each other for life in Fidelity, Love and Faithfulness” that’s also not disgusting? So “Fidelity Love and Faithfulness” trumps all? No. Basic biology shows the truth that anti-Christ leftist fascists seek to deny in every way they can, even claiming a man is a woman if he merely says the words.

        • TSawesome

          You misconstrue to the benefit of your own agenda.
          Goodbye.

      • Same sex sex aka homosexuality is a perversion and disgusting. It is forbidden by God.

        • TSawesome

          No, sorry Doug — but that’s just not true… Hey, thanks for sharing your *opinion*.

          • It is God not me that has forbidden same sex sex in both the Old and New Covenants.

          • TSawesome

            Pagan temple prostitution. FTFY.
            Bye, Doug.

          • And that means what? Do you really think that?

          • Which in that case was same sex sex and forbidden by God.

          • TSawesome

            Heterosexuals, Doug.

          • And homosexuals and both are sexual immorality and is forbidden by God.

          • TSawesome

            No, Doug. Your opinion is not the choice of Christ. Thanks for playing… Bye!

          • And what opinion would that be?

          • ppp777

            Don’t bother with reprobates

          • Before we came to Christ we were all reprobates.

          • ppp777

            ” And God gave them over to a reprobate mind ” , hmm , I don’t think so .

          • TruthvLIes

            Yes, sorry sawsome..but it is true. It is a case that you have not caught up with the truth yet. Not that you would want to as you can’t handle it. That is why the yes propaganda was all lies.

      • TruthvLIes

        Who are you referring to? If you mean homosexuals the evidence is clear they don’t know the meaning of the word fidelity or how to be faithful so perhaps you had better choose someone else.

        • ThroatwobblerMangrove

          Given the huge number of them wanting to get married, maybe they clearly DO know the meaning of the word fidelity, but you just don’t want to admit that.

          • TruthvLIes

            Huge number wanting to get married!!!!! In Sweden I think it was, only 2% of 2% of the population wanted to marry a homosexual after it was legalised. If that is huge, I was even worse at maths than I thought I was.

            Denis Altman, a lecturer at Latrobe University and leading spokesman on homosexual affairs said on a Compass programme discussing same sex marriage that homosexuals do not aspire to monogamy. That is a heterosexual concept.

            In research done by homosexuals amongst homosexual couples they found that 72% of them were not monogamous. They had sex with someone outside of the relationship EVERY WEEK.

            In a programme on SBS TV they showed a programme about same sex marriage in the UK. They found that fidelity amongst homosexual couples was a figment of people’s imagination.

            As an example they showed a married couple where one of them went to the local homosexual sauna bath every Thursday to have sex with as many men as he could.

            What I am prepared to admit is the evidence, which is out there if you care to see it but I know homosexuals cannot handle the truth so they prefer not to see it.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Your research, or lack thereof, is offensive, disgusting garbage. To say there are no monogamous gay couples is like saying there are no monogamous straight ones.

          • TruthvLIes

            This is what I said truth hater…..

            In research done by homosexuals amongst homosexual couples they found that 72% of them were not monogamous. They had sex with someone outside of the relationship EVERY WEEK

            Now do tell me where you see “no monogamous homosexual couples” in that sentence?

            And calling the research done by homosexuals “offensive, disgusting garbage” is as clear as anything that you can’t handle the truth.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            What is your source? We both know you are lying.

          • TruthvLIes

            Answer the question.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            I can’t. Your statistics are nonsense.

          • TruthvLIes

            Typical denial of the truth response.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Cite your sources then and stop lying.

          • TruthvLIes

            I don’t cite sources to atheists because the bible tells us not to throw pearls before swine.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Then too bad the Christians who might be taking you seriously can’t either because you’ve given them nothing to work with.

          • Eldrida Urika

            Trying to make homosexuals like they are the way they created a whole show and that doesn’t make you question it’s legitimacy? The show was created FOR the purpose of making them worse than heterosexuals by not giving comparable statistics so it is not a realistic study in the first place to say it like ALL gays are like that is the equivalent of saying that ALL Christians treat every person who is not a Christian like they are dirty people. Do all Christians treat everyone badly or are we supposed to behave properly in all situations? You see generalizations are rarely accurate and it is wrong to believe any statistics that use too wide a subject definition, and should include a comparison to make the study and show the facts as two groups.
            Heterosexuals cheat just as often as gays do, probably more as there are more of them than gays. So I believe this was focused making gays look bad instead of a study that is about more than one group.
            My opinion of course but considering they do the same inaccurate studies about us (Christians) to make us look bad too. Why would you want to use the same methods to inaccurately show anything so one sided even if you don’t agree with gays, you should consider Why they only speak about gays when they are not the only group that has high statistics of cheating and divorce. Sorry that study was done by a bigot.

    • ThroatwobblerMangrove

      So why have you taken “Saved yourselves from this perverse generation” and assumed that means gay marriage? I read that same passage and just assume it means rape and murder.

      • ppp777

        Sodomy and [ so called ] same sex marriage is as perverse as it gets .

        • ThroatwobblerMangrove

          Wow, sure glad I never went to your church then. What a horrible thing to teach people.

        • TSawesome

          Judging and condemning others to death (yes, you said that) is perverse.

      • TruthvLIes

        Just assume? I just assume all Ford’s are a lemon because the one I bought was.

        • TheKingOfRhye

          Seriously? That would be just like me saying “I met one Christian I didn’t like, therefore I assume all Christians are jerks.”. Or replace “Christian” with other things, like say, a race or sexual orientation….

          • TruthvLIes

            You are the one that “assumed” not me.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            How am I assuming anything?

    • TSawesome

      So you’re a “glass half empty” kinda guy. OK.

  • Lydia Church

    It’s a sin. Judgment follows.
    Argument: over.

    • Nick Halflinger

      So is divorce – but it is still legal.

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        strawman ……..

        • ThroatwobblerMangrove

          That is not an example of a straw man.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            it is the absolute definition of it ……….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            A straw man argument is when your opponent accuses you of making a point you never made. Please explain how that occurred here.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “A straw man argument is when your opponent accuses you of making a point you never made. Please explain how that occurred here.”

            Title:
            Australians Vote in Favor of Same-Sex ‘Marriage’ in Nationwide Postal Survey

            “Lydia Church • 3 days ago
            It’s a sin. Judgment follows.
            Argument: over.”

            “Nick Halflinger Lydia Church • 2 days ago
            So is divorce – but it is still legal.”

            hmmmmm …… she made no mention of “divorce” ….. and neither did the article ….. STRAWMAN …………..

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            That isn’t a straw man, it is a simple comparison.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            sure …. a STRAWMAN comparison ……….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            No, not a strawman…period.
            Divorce is a comparison being introduced for the first time by Nick. It’s not something Lydia mentioned that is being misrepresented.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            again … whatever you have to tell yourself ………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            If you weren’t impervious to facts you might actually learn something.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            back at cha sport ….. you are invulnerable to them ……….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Whatever you say…sport.

          • TSawesome

            Are you ISP with a new avatar?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            my Comments 23924 ……. they are wide open ….. you be the judge ……

          • TSawesome

            Nice “Non-Answer”…

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you can research EVERY post of 23900-some made in the last years ….. you can answer your own question ……..

          • TSawesome

            Oh, sure… Like *that’s* all I’ve got to do today!
            *eyeroll*

            Bye, “Amos”!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you asked the question ….. if you do not want to investigate it ….. YOUR problem, not mine ….. any denial would be a waste of time …… and i am not interested enough to engage in it ……….. L8TR …………

          • TSawesome

            L8TR

    • TSawesome

      That’s your opinion. Judge yourself, not others.
      Argument: over.

  • Reason2012

    People still believe these “surveys” to let them know what they’re thinking?

    • Tangent002 ✓

      When the survey has 12 million respondents, yes.

      • Reason2012

        No, they CLAIM there are 12 million respondents. You do know how trivial it is to fake that many, or change numbers, do you not?

        • Michael C

          Sure buddy. It’s fake. It’s all fake. Fake news!

          The “real truth” is that a majority of Ozzies truly do oppose the equal treatment of their gay friends, neighbors, and family members. The Australian government just spent over a hundred million dollars and nearly 80% of registered voters responded to the official plebiscite but it was all just a conspiracy orchestrated by the Radical Gay Agenda to turn everyone gay.

          • Reason2012

            Again, do you know how trivial it is for a handful of people in power of such system to fake the supposed count, are you ignorant of such things, or are you just intent on deceiving. And it’s huge power if someone can fake such things, convincing millions of a lie in the process and affecting policy and law.

            And here’s your perfect example in recent history (a.k.a. fact) of such obvious faking of data:
            You do recall how even here in America we were told time and again by these “polls” how Hillary was ahead in all those states she got soundly trashed? That’s not just the polls being a bit off, that’s called those polls were outright faked one way or another.

            They use these supposed polls to try convincing people that “everyone else” wants a certain thing – that in this case the majority wanted Hillary – but another FACT is that no one can ever find this “majority” except in these supposed polls. In the case of Hillary her rallies were sparse – could never find that “majority” that supposedly supported her, and she lost in most of those states we were “told” the polls put her ahead. While Trump’s rallies were standing room only.

            “turn everyone gay”

            I never said any such thing. Now you’re just being flat out dishonest using fake hysteria and lies about what I said to try making a point because you cannot address the FACT that the left of late has been faking polls to try swaying public opinion and influence policy and law.

            You yourself just posted in support of a teacher being suspended because he did not call a boy who claims he’s a girl “she” – that’s the real fascist danger of people like you – pretending to be all about “equal rights” but soon instead promoting fascism treating any who dare oppose your anti-science, anti-Christian agenda as outright criminals to be swiftly dealt with and gotten out of the way.

            America is waking up to the fascist “activists” who are by abuse of law and use of threat forcing everyone else to support with behavior, actions and words their anti-science propaganda, treating as criminals anyone who do not. That behavior is the very essence of fascism, of which you are in full support.

          • Michael C

            Got it. Total conspiracy.

            They use these supposed polls to try convincing people that “everyone else” wants a certain thing – that in this case the majority wanted Hillary – but another FACT is that no one can ever find this “majority” except in these supposed polls.

            The majority did vote for Clinton. Facts. They’re tricky things.

          • Reason2012

            The majority did vote for Clinton.

            Re-read what I wrote, Michael before you lie. I said “state by state”. The FACT is many states had supposed polls with her up in the double digits, yet she lost in most of them, proving it was just faked poll “data” in every one of those states. You instead lie and try to turn it back into country-wide to deflect and obfuscate, showing everyone else that you’re just a dishonest deceiver.

            And since you brought up the country:
            – On the recounts it was shown that votes for her were criminally counted up to 6 times each – and they pulled the plug on the recount for obvious reasons. Local media reported it (do a search on it) , but MSM covered it up, including Fox.
            – It was shown that MILLIONS of people who are not Americans criminally voted for her and democrats criminally counted them as votes from citizens.

            So by those Facts (those tricky things), it’s shown that she really did NOT get the majority even when you add up the entire country.

            Please think twice before you try to lie again.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Hillary, since you bring her up, wasn’t soundly trashed. She won the popular vote. I wouldn’t call that a sound trashing.

          • Reason2012

            False. Remember the recounts? It exposes the blatant voter fraud treason being committed:
            On the recounts it was shown that votes for her were criminally counted up to 6 times each – and they pulled the plug on the recount for obvious reasons. Local media reported it (do a search on it) , but MSM covered it up, including Fox
            It was shown that MILLIONS of people who are not Americans criminally voted for her and democrats criminally counted them as votes from citizens.
            All her rallies were a shadow of what Trump’s rallies were, which shows Americans really did NOT vote for her as much as we were lied to.
            Even the polls on every state she lost were false claiming she had clear leads, even in the double digits.
            I would look up more information than just the liberal MSM who has shown themselves to be little more than propaganda passed off as news.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            I think with all the talk of collusion from Russia, you should reserve your judgement. I’m willing to bet there was far more crookedness going on in the Trump camp than the Hillary one.

            As for the statements you make above, they are nonsense and you haven’t got proof.

          • ppp777

            Similar things happened in England .

          • TSawesome

            The fascists are those who wish to impose their personal, narrow view of Christianity (which many other Christians do not hold) on the entire population.

          • Reason2012

            Not surprising, as many do not hold to what God has made plain, that many “professing” Christians do not hold to, as Christ even points out most who claim to be Christians will be cast into_hell anyway, that few will be saved.

            “[Jesus said] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
            Matthew 7:21-23

            “[Jesus said] Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.”
            Matthew 7:13-15

            “[Jesus said] And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kìll the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath kìlled hath power to cast into hèll; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.”
            Luke 12:4-5

            “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.”
            Proverbs 1:7

          • TSawesome

            Judging and condemning others isn’t our job. That’s for Christ alone.

          • Reason2012

            I didn’t judge. I told you how Christ / God will judge.
            And yes, taking your own advice, you should not judge Christians who follow God’s Words fascists.

          • TSawesome

            Yet you presume to know how Christ will judge another…

          • ppp777

            Reprobate you mean .

          • TSawesome

            (You forgot your sarcasm tag)

        • Tangent002 ✓

          This isn’t an opinion poll. It’s a referendum performed via postal survey.

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        and “12 meellion” cant be wrong ….. oh wait …. YES they can …..

        • TSawesome

          And YOU can’t be wrong… Oh, wait… YES, you can…

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            GOD cannot be wrong and is not wrong …. and is not a liar …… the dictionary is written by men who are ALL proven liars ……….. and if what they say varies with scripture ….. then it is a lie ……………

          • TSawesome

            Wow.
            So now you’re *also* more knowledge that the dictionary…
            Okaaaaay…

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “So now you’re *also* more knowledge that the dictionary…”

            sorry … not about me ….. FAIL ……… try again ……….

          • TSawesome

            You’ve lost any more entertainment value, sorry.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            see ya …. would not want to be ya ………..

          • MCrow

            Interesting. YOU=GOD in your mind

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Interesting. YOU=GOD in your mind”

            Interesting. YOU=GOD in your mind … back at cha sport ………..

          • MCrow

            You’re the one who was accused of being wrong and defaulted to saying what God thinks of a subject. I make no such claims. You, by contrast, do

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            liars get ignored … BECAUSE THEY ARE LIARS ….. did you not EVER learn that ……. you lie to yourself and now you want us to believe YOUR LIES …. LIARS get ignored as they should …………

          • MCrow

            Again, you are the one who took an accusation of being wrong and declared that god cannot be wrong. Taking it so personally tells me I’m on to something

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … just bored with your “accusations” …… YOU are dismissed ……

          • MCrow

            If you could counter them, you would

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i do not justify lies ……….. sorry …. you are IGNORED ……….

          • MCrow

            I’m asking you to justify your ‘truth.’ But you can’t, can you?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            because …. simply …. there is no “my truth” ….. so it is a lying and stupid request ……. there is no such thing ….. i do not defend what i do not believe ….. and i do not believe in “your truth” and “my truth” ……. it is an idiotic request ………….

          • MCrow

            Ok, Amos: I’ve made a claim. I said you conflate your pride with god as your response to being accused of being wrong is that God cannot be wrong. I use, as evidence, that your reaction to being accused of being wrong is saying that God cannot be wrong, which is curious as that defense would only apply if you (Amos) = God. So offer a counter argument or I am going to go on with assuming that I am correct and that your ‘god’ is merely your own ego given a fancy name.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ” I said you conflate your pride with god”

            again …. lies are not a “claim” ….. they are just lies ………..

          • MCrow

            You should be able to show why it is a lie, then. Otherwise, you’re just saying it is a lie. Allow me an example: what you just said is a lie, I am telling the truth. Oh, look, an unfounded accusation which has no bearing or proof. Just. Like. Yours.

            Go ahead and prove it is a lie or admit that you can’t. If you post without evidence, I’ll take it as your concession.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            no … i do not have to show you that …. i am not here to make a personal defense of every insult you want to hurl ….. this is a christian forum … and the topic here is Christ and christianity …..

          • MCrow

            You concede then. Good to know

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i concede you make insulting remarks …..

          • MCrow

            Then you have evidence that what I said was a lie?

          • TruthvLIes

            Of course we won’t talk about atheists who lie all the time when they say God does not exist. They never ever produce any proof of their claim but christians are supposed to provide proof that God does exist.

            The truth is atheists do believe that God exists although they deny this. They deny this because they don’t want to concede control over their lives to him so denial is their best defence.

          • MCrow

            See, this is imposing your way of thinking, same as Amos before. You think that because you believe in God, well, everyone must! I acknowledge people believe in God, but I don’t see the reason why. All evidence I see points to naturalistic explanations requiring no deity, and the only evidence is an old collection of stories happening in a specific time and place and context, no different from any other mythos.

          • TruthvLIes

            More mumbo jumbo from a paid up member of the atheist club.

            Did you know that atheists have been saying this for thousands of years and did you know it has not made a scrap of difference.

            So do you know how we know this? Simple. There are approx 2.6 billion christians on the earth as of today. How many atheists are there?

            And why on earth do you think that I am going to ditch a faith that misleads me for 70 years if I am wrong, which I am not, for one that is going to send me to hell for eternity if I am wrong?

            There is no logic to that at all. Like me being told, buy a Ford and it will last for 10 years and when it stop running you still have to keep it, but if you buy a Mercedes it will last 50 years so I go out and buy a Ford.

            I would be living in a fool’s paradise just like you are.

            Did you know you are talked about in the bible? Yes that is right. It says a fool has said in his heart there is no God.

            Hi fool. Having a nice day?

  • ISA41:10

    Homosexuality is a sin, period!

    • ThroatwobblerMangrove

      No it isn’t. Period.

    • TSawesome

      Left-handedness is a sin, period!
      /sarcasm

  • Well, it looks like Australia has a majority of freedom and happiness loving people. Good for them! Last time I looked, neither the U.S. nor Australia where theocracies. The religious right has no right to dictate to the rest of the population how they should live.

    The real sin here is that some people insist that the government leave them alone but have no problem whatsoever using the government to bludgeon the rest of society into abiding by their religious beliefs, including preventing some people from seeking happiness through marriage.

    I’ve yet to hear any fundamentalist tell me exactly how he is harmed by the marriage two people of the same gender. Why not simply leave them alone to seek happiness according to the dictates of their conscience, and just be content to believe that they will suffer eternal burning torture in Hell, compliments of your loving god? That should make you happy.

  • Reason2012

    I’ve yet to hear any fundamentalist tell me exactly how he is harmed by the marriage two people of the same gender.

    The famous false statement meant to get people to drop their guard until it’s too late. Now people are sued, fined, suspended, fired, put out of business and more when they do not violate their own beliefs and do no support homosexuality, transgenderism in word and in deed, showing the entire movement is really fascism. Tto get started they start with the lie “how will this affect you?”, then later you’ll find out how it will affect you when it’s too late.

    How will an 18 year old girl marrying her dad and uncle affect you? Same logic, but suddenly they will pretend to realize “how will it affect you?” is no longer the end all of decisions on laws and policy, which of course exposes their dishonesty.

    • This style 10/6

      They are fined when they discriminate against persons. If you can’t serve everyone equally, get out of business

  • mikegillespie

    If they had taken a survey in 1850 in America, most people were OK with slavery.

    Morality is not poll-driven.

  • Robin Egg

    Where have all the moderators gone? 355 comments at this writing and I would wager that seventy percent of the comments are from trolls and socks. What a waste.

  • master_chief_usn

    This just proves that most Aussies are as stupid as most of us Yanks. (And some Aussies LOOK as stupid, too, judging from the above photo.)

  • TruthvLIes

    The vote was far from overwhelming. Of all the people who could vote and were sent voting forms, only 48.7% voted yes. That means the vote was lost.

    • Michael C

      31% of registered voters were enough to elect Trump.

      • TruthvLIes

        If memory serves me, the question was not about Donald Trump.

  • TruthvLIes

    I have written to Alan Joyce three times and said it is hypocritical to support same sex marriage here and have a business link up with Etihad Airlines owned by the United Arab Republic, where homosexuallity is illegal and carries the death penalty.

    Every one should write to him and criticise his hypocrisy.

  • Amos Moses – He>i

    PETER HITCHENS: The transgender zealots are destroying truth itself
    By Peter Hitchens for The Mail on Sunday
    PUBLISHED: 00:05 GMT, 19 November 2017 | UPDATED: 07:52 GMT, 19 November 2017

    lgblT …. the transwhatever has ALWAYS been there ……….

  • ISA41:10

    Jesus said “it would be just like the days of Sodom and Gomorrah before he returns”!!

    We are VERY CLOSE!!

  • Truth first

    For a Christian Mark Twain’s adage should ring true:

    “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.”

    Christians are by default cautious about how the majority of the world thinks. If you constantly find yourself on the side of the majority of people in the world on moral and spiritual matters, it is time to take stock and see where you stand in relation to God and Jesus Christ.

    The gay and lesbian issue in Australia shows that beautifully. Christians and non-Christian, under the guise of “love and tolerance” alike have stopped reasoning and are aping irrational thought on an unprecedented scale. Let’s steer clear as Christians of the abomination and steadfastly profess what the Bible says on these matters.