Australians Vote in Favor of Same-Sex ‘Marriage’ in Nationwide Postal Survey

Photo Credit: David Jackmanson

(Bloomberg) Australians have voted emphatically in support of same-sex marriage, paving the way for parliament to legalize homosexual unions before the end of the year.

Some 61.6 percent of the more than 12 million people who took part in the government-run postal survey backed same-sex “marriage,” with 38.4 percent against, the Australian Bureau of Statistics announced on Wednesday. While the voluntary survey doesn’t legally bind parliament, Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull said the public “overwhelmingly” backed changing the law and urged lawmakers to respect the outcome.

“We must respect the voice of the people,” Turnbull told reporters in Canberra. “We asked them for their opinion and they have given it to us. It is unequivocal. It is overwhelming.”

Turnbull’s call is supported by business, including Australia & New Zealand Banking Group Ltd., which says homosexual “marriage” would add A$650 million ($496 million) to the economy in the first year alone. But the right-leaning coalition government remains divided on the issue, with lawmakers arguing whether to let celebrants and other service providers opt out of marrying gay couples on religious grounds.

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  • meamsane

    Well, at least 38.4% of Australians are still difficult to brainwash and deceive on objective truth and morality.

    • MattFCharlestonSC

      says the person who is brainwashed to believe that his personal religious choice constitutes an objective measure of national civil rights.

      • meamsane

        Objective truth does not change because of majority opinion.

        • Worf

          Objective truth is not defined by religious dogmas, and does not change because a particularly hate filled brand of christians find gay people icky.

          You claim to know the absolute truth on morality. Can you prove it? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Can you show any evidence (not the bible) that your version of morality is the one and only truth?

          If you can’t provide this evidence than anybody is justified in calling your “truth” utter nonsense, and ignoring your hateful “morality”.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Objective truth is not defined by religious dogmas”

            you are right ….. objective truth defines TRUTH IN CHRISTIANITY ……. they are the same ……….

          • meamsane

            Absolute truth on morality? That absolute truth comes from God. You want me to prove it? Yet you want to eliminate the bible as evidence? That shows your dis-ingenuous question for me to prove it!

            OK. Against all science and evidence-human psychology, anthropology, anatomy, biology, etc, etc a human male and a human female are compatible mates in marriage for what should be to most, self-evident observations and that two men or two women are not meant to be sexually compatible when one objectively looks at the design of the created order.

            The problem is not with the evidence, it is with you rejecting the evidence because of the conclusion that that truth leads you to.
            God decides.

          • Worf

            I eliminate the bible as evidence because it is not. It is just a book. The books I get scientific knowledge from are not evidence of the statements in them. But they usually cite actual scientific studies that, while very difficult and boring to read, provide the evidence for the statements in the book in a formal and organized way. The bible simply makes unsubstantiated claims that far exceed the level of evidence it provides for those claims.

            The sexual compatibility of gender combinations has no relation to morality.

          • meamsane

            But science books are just books too. You want to define “evidence” in a very narrow way and exclude evidence that may challenge your own view, I get it.
            You reject the self-evident truth that the design and perfectly compatible anatomy of the male sex organs to the female sex organs leads you to. When you reject an objective standard for such, I can see why you would. Then you should have no problem with Bestiality, incest etc when you use subjective personal measures for what you support.

          • Worf

            You need to work on your reading comprehension. I was specifically saying that books are not evidence of what is written in them, whether they are science books or the bible.

            But science books cite the evidence for their content. The only purpose of the book is to present the findings in a compact way that a layman can understand.

            So far, every divine claim in the bible has yet to provide even the slightest evidence for its truth. Claiming to know the absolute moral truth is a big claim, and you have not met your burden of proof, ESPECIALLY because you expect other people to live by it.

            Saying something is “self-evident” does not make it true. I think it is “self-evident” that the christian god was made up by ancient men with something to gain, but clearly you do not agree with that.

            Comparing gay sex to bestiality and rape is a hatefully false deflection, and it shows the level of vile deceived hate that bubbles in you. The same disgusting comparison was used by the nazis to justify sending homosexuals to concentration camps to be enslaved and murdered.

            You obviously consider gay people subhuman, and are therefor not someone I am willing to continue this with. Have fun with your hypocritical hate mongering.

          • meamsane

            I said nothing about rape. I am in no way demonstrating hate. You folks want everyone to bow the knee and affirm your lifestyles and when you can’t you default to the usual talking points: your a hater, bigot, etc. You simply don’t want to address the issues that I am getting at. You are the one deflecting.

            Comparing “gay” sex to bestiality is not a “hatefully false deflection” but an apt example of an un-natural desire and action opposing the natural order of how we are to relate to each other. The only sexual relationship that is legitimate and good is between a husband (man) and a wife ( woman). Any other is wrong and that includes adultery and fornication (hetero and homo), bestiality, incest etc.

            If there is no God, then there is no objective standard of morality that applies to all humans. So there would be no cause to complain when everyone wants to go there own way and do there own thing that is morally questionable. But that is not the truth, is it? To have such a society would mean utter chaos and eventual ruin.

            I don’t consider “gay” people to be subhuman, and neither does God!

        • DrIndica

          Can you provide objective proof of your “truth”?

          • meamsane

            Objective proof? See my above answer to worf. But I don’t expect you to accept it.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Truth is the standard and is either accepted or rejected …… there is no “proof” required …… you reject it ….. SO WHAT …………

        • TSawesome

          Objective truth is that gay people are just a capable of lifelong, fulfilling, loving, self-sacrificing and faithful marriages as anyone.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            capable … sure … maybe …. IF they stop being homosexual …… very big IF though …… and staying homosexual ….. forget it …

            For the 829 homosexuals who died of something else besides AIDS, the median age was 42 years of age, and 9% died old. Of 163 lesbians, the median age was 44 years of age, and 20% died old. 2.8% of homosexuals died violently and they were 116 times more apt to be murdered, 24 times more apt to commit suicide, and had a traffic accident death rate 18 times greater than comparably aged white males. 20% of lesbians died of murder, suicide, or accident, a rate 487 times greater than that of white females aged 25 to 44.

          • ppp777

            The truth tell a totally different story , you are reprobates .

        • Eldrida Urika

          Did you not realize that Jesus believed in equal rights? And Jesus never told us to treat sinners differently than anyone else.. I’ll be happy to give you the scriptures that show that if you are not familiar with them. BTW being able to be married is an equal rights issue. Jesus never told us to interfere in their lives either. He told us to ensure that they know the Gospel and leave them alone to choose whether or not to follow Jesus or not. He never once told us to intrude into their lives like stopping their sin and affecting their lives. He never taught us to be inconsiderate towards anyone. He never told us to stop sinners from sinning and instead he told us that they will have an expected end. So what is the reason you think that Jesus would approve of taking away anything that all other people are able to do?

          • TruthvLIes

            The only equal right that Jesus preached was the right to be born again.

            SSM is not an equal rights issue. It is an issue of satan trying to destroy what God has created and because of that we should not give it our imprimatur.

            The whole thing is based on lies. We are called to support the truth because it is the truth that sets us free, not lies. SSM will only serve to put homosexuals into more bondage than they are at the moment.

            And what Jesus told us to be was salt and light and to be that we have to oppose darkness and washing our hands of what the world demands of us.

          • Eldrida Urika

            I’m sorry but perhaps you forgot the scriptures. The story of the Apostles receiving the people’s assets and that couple that held money back? What they were doing was collecting all money for the purpose of dividing it amongst all the people so they would start as equal to each other at that point. So you should look at the scriptures and see what it says. Blessings!

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        it is not a personal choice ….. unlike being a homosexual ………..

        • DrIndica

          Religion is most definitely a personal subjective choice. Most times dependent on which part of the globe in which one is born.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope ….. that is your fundamental misunderstanding of christianity ……. FAIL ……..

          • ZappaSaid88

            nope. Religion is chosen.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            christians are chosen by God Himself ….. your misunderstanding of what happens …… it is not our choice …………..

          • ZappaSaid88

            Ha, thanks for the laugh! The finger of God taps you on the head and chooses you for his team like some sort of jr High gym class? That’s hilarious. I’m sure you have some proof of your statement?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            SCRIPTURE ………..

          • ZappaSaid88

            Using the Bible to prove the Bible? Nope, circular argument.

          • mr goody two shoes

            The reason we use the bible is because their is no higher authority you use lower authority which is no authority at all. The grass withers and the flowers die but the word of the Lord endurith for ever.

          • ZappaSaid88

            You use imaginary authority, nothing worse than that.

          • Trilemma

            There is no higher authority than the Bible? I thought God was the highest authority. Sounds like bibliolatry.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            God IS His word …… His word is scripture …….

          • Trilemma

            Which version of the Bible is God?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            the TR ………….

          • Trilemma

            I like the TR but why not the NA28. After years of textual criticism, it matches the original manuscripts better than the TR.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            God has said He will preserve His word ….. and history has shown the TR to be those manuscripts …. if there is any question we can go to the original language ….. no matter who translated it ………. and it is available …….. it is what the 1800 translators had available to them ….. mostly complete and intact and the others have numerous dubious lineages ………

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you use a science book and a website to “prove” science ……. and that is not circular reasoning …… better check your definition ….. you might also clean off your glasses ad check WHERE YOU ARE ….. and that is on a CHRISTIAN website …… that IS proof here ……… YOU are the one who made assertions about christianity …… did you think the answer was else where …. AGAIN …. clean off your glasses and check WHERE YOU ARE ………….

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            scripture says we cannot choose God without God …… let me see you choose Him …. RIGHT …. you cannot … as so far ….. He has not chosen you ……..

          • MCrow

            He’s right: I didn’t get the decoder ring in my cereal box, guess it’s eternal damnation for something I have no way to avoid and is entirely out of my hands

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            well you are sort of getting it ….. and if that is not motivation for you to investigate why …. so what …. not my job to change your mind ,,,, it is Gods job to do that …

          • MCrow

            What a lovely excuse to ignore the Great Comission! Also, I would like to point out once again that this makes your god a sadistic narcissist who only cares about his own glory and creates sapient, thinking, feeling beings for no purpose other than to be eternally tortured. And your last point just makes me assume more than ever that god is not real.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            the great commission as far as you are concerned is fulfilled …… you have heard the gospel ….. you have rejected it …… Gods word does not return void and in your case it has resulted in your rejection ….. all as God intended it to do … anything beyond that is above my pay grade and up to Christ …..

          • MCrow

            Oh so close and so far. Nowhere does it say in the Comission to spread the word. “Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”

            “Make disciples” is a very active and specific charge. Simply saying “eh, they heard it, and that’s all they get” is nothing but sloth.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            we make disciples by speaking His words ….. i.e. the scriptures ……. and your public testimony is ….. YOU HAVE HEARD IT ……

          • MCrow

            Also, how can I “reject” god? You yourself have said I have no will to accept or reject your god, that it has to change me in some undefinable, non-specific way. So no, I havne’t rejected god. You, however, have rendered all of the teachings on evangelism moot.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you misunderstand …… Gods word ….. the scriptures ….. rejected you …..

          • MCrow

            And again, we are back to the *thing* you worship being unworthy of it. He commands you to do pointless exercises (why bother with evangelization? Prayer? Church?), creates people with no choice but to fall to sin and only saves them on his whimsy, punishing those who have no choice in the matter with eternal torture, and could fix everything in the world, but doesn’t because his narcissistic glorymongering wouldn’t be satisfied.

            Whatever you worship, Amos, isn’t good, and isn’t love.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and AGAIN ….. we are back to the *thing* you say you would not worship …… has REJECTED you ….. and you wanted to be REJECTED ….. so ….. WHAT IS YOUR COMPLAINT ……cause i aint gettin’ what your complaint is …… you are getting ….. EXACTLY AS YOU WISH ……. so quit your BELLY-ACHING ….. and MAN -UP …………..

          • MCrow

            Mostly because you use it as justification to treat others as inferior to yourself. So man up and convince people or stop complaining when other people are more benevolent than your god

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            they are the same as me and you … and you are projecting your A-theism on me ….. you are the one who does not care for them ….. i want them safe and well and in Christ …… you want them abandoned to hell with you ….. misery loves company ….. your crocodile tears are touching …… but i do not believe you ….. you are all full of ….. well …… YOURSELF …………..

          • MCrow

            Saying I’m full of myself is rich from the man who claims to known the mind of an omniscient deity…when will you just admit that your “god” stares you back in the mirror every day?

            This is the issue with fundamentalists: you say you care for people as you seek to oppress them, demand that they follow your ways, and say that those who do not are condemned to hell for all eternity. Rule by fear, judgment, and hostility. A century ago, churches were claiming interracial marriages were an abomination. Before that they defended slavery. Your hatred and justification of oppression is nothing new, Amos, just a relic of people too fearful to accept what is different.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “when will you just admit that your “god” stares you back in the mirror every day?”

            yours does ……..

          • MCrow

            I have no god, so nope

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            your God is you belly …. you are a slave to your appetites ….. so YEAH …. you do … and you LIE about that also …. nothing knew ………

          • MCrow

            I have no god. I don’t worship anything. Again, you are convinced that everyone is the same as you. I could make arguments against, but then you’ll accuse me of boasting (as you have before), so my response is this: you’re wrong, but your pride won’t allow you to accept it, because in your mind, you and god are in agreement on everything.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you are your own God …. or government is your God …. and you are not “unique in all the universe” …. God created you … God knows you ….. God told the world about the world He created …. and the a-theist God deniers place in it ….. and your denials are just more lies …….

          • MCrow

            I. Have. No. God.

            I know you can’t accept this, but not everyone thinks like you do. Your god is as real to me as any other god: fictions created to explain things beyond contemporary comprehension.

            Also, your labeling of what I think as a lie just shows you conflate your own will with your god. How do you know what I think? God alone can read hearts, according to your scriptures. Are you saying you can read my heart? Because if so, you are setting yourself up along Yahweh.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            more of your lies ………. why should anyone listen …….. IGNORED ………..

          • MCrow

            Ah yes, the ostrich defense: you can’t answer so you pretend to ignore things.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … liars get ignored … BECAUSE THEY ARE LIARS ….. did you not EVER learn that ……. you lie to yourself and now you want us to believe YOUR LIES …. LIARS get ignored as they should …………

          • MCrow

            You can’t dismiss my claims, so you call them lies. You can’t support your arguments, so you call me a liar. You have no arguments to make, so you try to ignore me. You can’t address any of my claims, so you’re going to bury your head in the sand. I’m guessing you are covering your ears because there is still some rational part of your brain that is looking at the things I say and you know you can’t reasonably argue against them.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            lies are not claims …. they are lies …. nothing to dismiss …. YOU are dismissed ………

          • MCrow

            You could show they were lies if they were lies. It would be easy. But no, you just say I’m a liar because I don’t think like you. It’s sad

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i do not justify lies ….. IGNORED …… Christ heard MANY, MANY lies during His trial …… His response ….. was SILENCE ……

          • MCrow

            Again, asking you to justify your truth. And again, you can’t

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            because …. simply …. there is no “my truth” ….. so it is a lying and stupid request …….

          • MCrow

            Ok, then justify the truth: show me one proof that everyone everywhere for all of history knows that god exists. Go on. That is your claim, you claim it is the objective truth. Put your money where your mouth is. Otherwise, I would sincerely suggest silence as it would show you’re not serious about your claim and are, in fact, just making unfounded claims.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            truth is either accepted or rejected …. you reject it ….. and the evidence is …. you ask for it to be “justified” …… justify your demand that truth be “justified” ………

          • MCrow

            Because if you justified the truth, you would provide me with evidence which I could accept or reject. You say I reject truth, but you have not a shred of proof that I have, aside from saying so. In short, you’re making your unfounded claims and usurping the judgment seat again because you equate yourself to your god

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … backwards ….. if you knew and accepted the truth …. then it would not need any justification or proof …… but since you have rejected the truth … nothing will ever justify or prove it …… in short …… it does not matter what is shown to you ….. you will not accept it as you do not accept truth ….

            BY YOUR OWN ADMISSIONS HERE ……… IN WRITING ………..

          • MCrow

            I do not accept what anyone claims is truth without evidence. If someone told me “the sun rises in the west,” they’d better have some evidence to back it up. I reject your claims to hold absolute truth without evidence, yes. You have provided me with…you saying you’re right, which is about as convincing as someone saying the sun rises in the west and telling me I need to believe it without question.

            Also, you are veering dangerously close to a classic heresy: Gnosticism, which claims that only the enlightened can see the truth.

          • TruthvLIes

            So you don’t accept it when an atheist claims God does not exist but does not provide any proof?

          • MCrow

            We atheists don’t need to provide proof of the non-existence. We take the lack of evidence as proof enough. You can argue “lack of evidence is not evidence of lack,” but if we have no evidence whatsoever and have wholly natural methods to explain all things credited to God…then I default to Occom’s Razor: choose a solution that makes the fewest assumptions. If everything can be explained naturally, then we have no need for miraculous explanations. If God is not something anyone can experience readily, then why should we believe in him?

          • TruthvLIes

            There speaks an atheist that is an expert on nothing except his own opinion.

            Sad to say, occam’s razor won’t get you to heaven and it won’t stop you going to hell so if I were you buddy I would ditch it in favour of the real truth that sets you free.

            Jesus, the way the truth and the life.

          • MCrow

            It’s actually sad that you have nothing but fearmongering as an argument. Unlike you, I don’t want to see people cowering in fear of damnation. I’d much rather they live full lives since we have no proof there is anything beyond death.

            As to the way, truth, and life bit, how do you know that? Because the Bible said so? And how do you know the Bible is accurate? Because…lemme guess, the Bible says it is?

          • TruthvLIes

            You call it fearmongering. I call it the truth. If I told my son not to drive down that road because rocks have been reported falling from the cliffs is that fear mongering or the truth?

          • MCrow

            The difference is that rocks falling from cliffs is something we can see and observe. Hell? Not so much. It’s the same as every other religion: listen to us or suffer damnation

          • TruthvLIes

            Another one who is grammatically challenged. I said and I quote “rocks have been reported falling from the cliffs.”

            As I understand the English language and I should do as I taught it, you can be in another country and know what is going on if it is reported to you. It is not necessary to “see” anything.

            Is that simple enough for you?

          • MCrow

            Yes, and I iterate again: rocks falling is something that we can observe cause and effect of. You’re being deliberately obtuse. I can watch rocks fall, I know what happens if they impact, so if someone says “rocks are falling in this area,” then there is cause to not go as it has a potential to result in injury and death.

            Now, you said people can report on what is happening. We have verification and can check multiple sources to ensure that the information we receive is accurate. Single sources are unreliable as fabrication is an issue.

            With that in mind: care to cite your sources on hell being real?

          • TruthvLIes

            obviously nothing is simple to you as you have to complicate anything that queers your patch.

            As to your last question, I DO NOT cast pearls before swine. I have done it before and it gets us nowhere. All i get in response is denial, denial and denial. Called burying your heads in the sand.

          • MCrow

            Yeah…which is why you keep responding: because you refuse to respond. Also, your answer is a classic example of evading. If you had this evidence, you’d present it. You don’t, but something (I’m guessing pride) won’t allow you to admit you’re wrong. If you show evidence, we can discuss that, but until you do, all I have is your word and, frankly, I have no reason to trust you

          • TruthvLIes

            As I said I do not cast pearls before swine. If that does not suit you then you only have yourself to blame. No one is interested in providing information if all they get in response is ridicule, what are you talking about, you are wrong (always), you need to learn, you need to catch up on this or that, your religion written by goat herders etc.

          • MCrow

            More evasion. If your evidence won’t hold up, then I understand why you hold it back. It prevents that evidence from ever being tested and potentially shown to be in error. It’s easier, certainly, to simply never present it and walk about self-assured because it can never be shown to be wrong.

          • TruthvLIes

            As I said, I am not allowed to cast pearls before swine. You can rant and rave all you like, but I am not allowed to cast pearls before swine.

            If that doesn’t serve your purpose, stop treating others as nunchucks as you might get somewhere if you do.

          • Bob Johnson

            He is not asking for pearls. He is asking for that evidence you have for your assertion that Hell is real.

            Which is interesting in itself as the word comes from the Anglo-Saxon pagans and derived from Norse mythology. And I would guess that your Christian hell is more a creation of Dante than the Bible.

          • TruthvLIes

            Yes he is. Pearls of wisdom which he is unable to comprehend because anything that does not emanate from atheist thought is considered irrelevant whereas in fact anything that are not pearls of wisdom from God are inconsequential.

            So I will say to you the same as I say to him. I do not cast pearls before swine.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “I do not accept what anyone claims is truth no matter what the evidence.”

            there you go …. i fixed that for you ….. now it is correct ……….

          • MCrow

            Also, if you actually would be silent, I’d stop responding. But your pride won’t let you, will it?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            then walk away …….. run away little boy …………

          • MCrow

            If you were someone it took longer than a minute to formulate a response to, I might. Sadly, your arguments have deteriorated of late to being dismissable on…well, not being arguments, failing to address my arguments, and generally running at the first sign that you’re over your head. I don’t run when I’m not at risk

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            LOL ….. you are headed toward a cliff you cannot or refuse to acknowledge ….. but you are “not at risk” …… laughing leads to crying ……….

          • MCrow

            What cliff? So far as I’m concerned, all you’ve proven to me is that your religion has no evidence for its claims, or you would use it.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            truth is accepted or rejected …. you reject it …. and you reject any proof of it …. it is not my job to convince you of what you outrightly and vociferously reject … it makes no difference what “proof” is put in front of you …. you reject it ….. you have stated you “were a christian” ….. baloney …. but fine …. you have stated outrightly and vociferously that even if that God was proven to you, you would not want any part of it ……. what is it that we have not already discussed that you think is going to be presented to you that is going to change even one thing …….. YOU HAVE NO COMPLAINT …. you have what you want ….. you are precisely where you want to be …… on Hokkaido waiting for NK to send a nuke your way ….. but you are not at risk …..

            and i am somehow supposed to tear down that kind of denial ……. and that is not “evidence” for you ………… you reject your own false reality ….. YOU HAVE NO COMPLAINT ……

          • MCrow

            Correction: I’ve said if God is what you have made him to be (tyrannical, despotic, whimsical, destroying and torturing to glorify himself), then yes, I’d rebel against him. It is the only moral choice. And yes, I left the church because I realized that it was causing me great mental anguish to try to hold those beliefs.

            What you have not done is shown me any evidence of a deity of any variety, certainly not yours. If you had some, you’d present it, but instead you write these long winded rants about me and how I’m a liar. You don’t make a counter-argument.

            Because you don’t have one.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            all hat …no cowboy …. your claim and nothing to back it up …… and it is all JUST AS I SAID …. “(tyrannical, despotic, whimsical, destroying and torturing to glorify himself), then yes, I’d rebel against him.” …… DENIAL of any evidence ….. and yet you sit there and demand “evidence” ….. so you can deny it further ……… AGAIN … YOU HAVE NO COMPLAINT …… go cry in you tea water ……….

          • MCrow

            What evidence, Amos? I said I’d rebel against him if he existed. I’d rebel against Voldemort if he existed. Emperor Palpatine. I don’t think any of these entities exist.

            My argument is that you have presented 0 evidence because you have none. If you want to prove me wrong, present it. Go ahead.

            Also, I rather like the tea here, though I vastly prefer English tea. I have no real reason to cry, as I’m not the one who has repeatedly fail to provide evidence for my claim.

          • TruthvLIes

            Actually, atheists have been shown for ever and a day but they reject the evidence because they don’t want evidence they want an argument as one atheist told me.’

            The fact is, atheists cannot handle the truth so the only way they can avoid it is denial.

            I can show you plenty of examples that God exists which I have used before but all the atheists have done is make pathetic excuses why they reject the evidence.

            And to prove they don’t want evidence, the leader of the local atheist club was asked to write an article in the local paper to defend atheism and in it he said miracles do not happen today.

            I wrote to him and gave him detailed evidence of a miracle taking place. Date, time, people involved what happened and where and told him to contact the people to verify what I said.

            When I checked back later he had made no attempt to contact the people involved.

            So he didn’t want evidence. He just wanted a platform to shoot from the lip and rubbish christianity.

          • MCrow

            “I have all this evidence” is not actually evidence

          • TruthvLIes

            I never said I have all the evidence.

          • MCrow

            “All *this* evidence” is what I said. You said you have a lot. Let’s see, oh, I dunno, one tangible bit of proof.

          • TruthvLIes

            What evidence do you want?

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            “Ostrich defense”. I like that one. I’ll have to remember it.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            No. Firstly, there’s no such thing as an “a-theist” and saying made up words over and over doesn’t make them real. People don’t worship themselves, they simply live lives according to their own decisions (and you do as well). All your “God” statements are opinions only.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            everybody worships something … and the rest are LIARS ……..

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            No, Amos. Worship is a very specific thing people do, in fact they go to special buildings like churches and synagogues to do it. If you are not a believer in a deity, you do not worship. It’s that simple.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you do not know what worship is …….. it does not require you to go anywhere or any place special … it is a DAILY ROUTINE …… it is what we do DAY IN AND DAY OUT …… and that is what you do …. you WORSHIP YOURSELF ………… DAY IN AND DAY OUT …… it is that simple ……….

          • Silas Jennings

            A five-year old knows what worship is, Amos. You don’t get to take well-known words and redefine them to your own specifications. No one worships themselves. No one.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope …. he does not ………. and you can give it a meaning that is not biblical ….. BUT …. this is a christian web site and a christian forum …… and definitions that apply ARE THE BIBLICAL DEFINITIONS ….. not the worlds definitions …………. and YES … people DO WORSHIP THEMSELVES …… FYI ….. it is called NARCISSISM ………… and all a-theists are NARCISSISTS ………

          • Silas Jennings

            You are making up words again. Until you are willing to use the common language if the dictionary there is little point in talking to you. I cannot guess what your made-up words mean and there is no one to define them.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope …. you are the one accepting made up definitions …. FAIL …………

          • TruthvLIes

            Glad you brought that up. As yet I have not found one dictionary where it says that the meaning of the words hate, intolerance or bigotry is to disagree with someone. yet the rainbow warriors insist that is what they mean.

          • Silas Jennings

            That is not what is being discussed here. Amos used the word “a-theists”. There is no such word.

          • TruthvLIes

            Duh!!

          • hiernonymous

            Narcissus was a figure from a pagan religion. If you think that’s a “Biblical” term, you’ve been having other gods before Him and all that – don’t be naughty!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i think you are not interested in BIBLICAL terms …. so i used YOUR WORLDLY term ….. and IN FACT …. it is LISTED in the DSM-5 ………

            Narcissistic Personality Disorder DSM-5 301.81 (F60.81) – Therapedia
            DSM-5 Category: Personality Disorders. Introduction. Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), a cluster B personality disorder, is considered to be one of the …

            and that BE EVERY A-THEIST ………

          • hiernonymous

            Well, yes, but unless you’re a zealous psychiatrist, the DSM isn’t the Bible. And while it’s perfectly normal to use terms in a less than clinical fashion, invoking the DSM to claim that everyone with a particular viewpoint is clinically diagnosable erodes your credibility.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            if the psychiatrist is expecting insurance reimbursement …. He Does ………. and SCRIPTURE has diagnosed them for quite some time ….. as lovers of self and not lovers of God and as liars without excuse …..

          • hiernonymous

            “…if the psychiatrist is expecting insurance reimbursement ….”

            Yes, go on? You’re communicating in fragments.

            “….and SCRIPTURE has diagnosed them for quite some time .”

            So it’s not sin, but a personality disorder? That really shakes up the new covenant, doesn’t it?

            “…and as liars without excuse …..”

            What do think they are lying about?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … it is a SIN …. and they are without excuse ……

          • hiernonymous

            Okay, I’m confused. I thought you said scripture diagnosed them with NPD. So I misunderstood?

            “they are without excuse”

            Okay, but that doesn’t answer the question. What do you think they are lying about? We’ll take it as a given that you don’t think they have an excuse for whatever it is.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            yes … you are confused ………

          • hiernonymous

            Yes …. yes, I am. You have said:
            1. That atheists are narcissists.
            2. That narcissism is a diagnosis in the DSM.
            3. That scriptures contain this diagnosis.

            Well, the DSM doesn’t describe NPD as a sin, but as a personality disorder. So your posts are inconsistent. I’ll be confused as long as your posts are inconsistent. Did you just not think it through?

            And you still haven’t said what they’re lying about. Should we just write that accusation off as poorly considered and move on?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “3. That scriptures contain this diagnosis.”

            NOOPE …….. try reading MORE CAREFULLY and read into what you want to see ……….

          • hiernonymous

            “. and SCRIPTURE has diagnosed them for quite some time”

            And what, again, are they lying about?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you are making CATEGORY ERRORS ….. quit reading into what i wrote and instead read what i said …………

          • hiernonymous

            Okay. You said that scripture had ‘diagnosed them.’ Having provided the context of the DSM and a specific personality disorder within the DSM, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to read ‘diagnose’ in its usual meaning of ‘identifying the health problem afflicting the patient.’ This doesn’t seem consistent with treating sin as a choice for which the sinner is punished. I’ll accept that you didn’t mean it that way, though the link between NPD and the scriptures then becomes questionable. But no matter, we can leave that lie, if you wish.

            When are you going to ‘say’ what the atheists are lying about?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            yes …. i did not say the DSM5 was used …… CATEGORY ERROR …………..

          • hiernonymous

            Context. Didn’t you just get done telling me how important context was in understanding what is written?

            If that’s not what you meant, that’s okay.

            Still haven’t heard you explain your ‘liars’ accusation. Who is “lying” about what?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            it is scripture … do you accept scripture …..

          • hiernonymous

            If you would clearly state what it is you are claiming, then we can examine the siurce and support of your claim. Who is lying about what?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Romans
            1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
            1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

            so they know God exists …. they have no excuse …… they deny God …. the a-theist (who mind earthly things) ….. “enemies of the cross” and most of them outwardly state as such ….. and they hold themselves out as a god to themselves …. their god is their own belly ….. narcissism ………. and liars ……….

            Philippians
            3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
            3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

            apt description of the a-theist …………….

          • hiernonymous

            So your contention is that
            Major Premise: If one states something that one knows not to be true, one is a liar.
            Minor Premise: Everyone knows God exists.
            Conclusion: Anyone who says that God does not exist is a liar.

            Is that an accurate summary?

          • hiernonymous

            Was my summary fair? Is there any way you’d like to adjust it before we move forward and analyze it?

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Exactly, exactly!

          • Tangent002 ✓

            I think it’s more like ‘Duck, Duck, Goose’.

          • mr goody two shoes

            Yes we do such as John 6:44

          • ppp777

            Salvation is offered [ a free gift ] , unless you are a calvanist you will think different .

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you cannot show me even one scripture where anyone in scripture was ever made such an offer and anyone who “accepted” …… not even one ………….

          • ppp777

            I’m afraid you don’t know the gospel .

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            then YOU show me …………. ONE EXAMPLE ………… ONE PERSON ……….

          • ppp777

            ” Salvation is a Gift of God not of works lest any man should boast ” , I could go on .

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and i pointed that out ….. but as it ALSO SAYS …. ” not of works lest any man should boast” … or did you just want to IGNORE THAT PART ………. it has NOTHING to do with us ….. it ALL has to do with GOD ………..

          • ppp777

            Yes , it is a [ what ? ] , yes a GIFT of God , or do you not know what a gift is ? , it is of course FREE , that is a gift by definition , and it is offered to all that will turn to his son [ Jesus ] , for salvation which he alone payed for , lets not go round in circles .

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “yes a GIFT of God””all that will turn to his son” ….. and i NEVER said different ….and i POINTED IT OUT TO YOU ….. but it is NOT available to any but the ELECT who can receive it …… and unless and until GOD INTERVENES ….. no one can receive it ….. Christ did NOT die for the sins of those WHO WOULD NEVER ACCEPT HIM ……. sorry … that is the way it is …..

            1 corinthians
            1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
            1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
            1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
            1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
            1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
            1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
            1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
            1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
            1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

            men will not accept “foolishness” WITHOUT Gods intervention …. and UNTIL God intervenes ….. at GODs SOLE DISCRETION …… it is NOT available to them …….. we are PREDESTINED to salvation ……. “according to the good pleasure of his will” ….. NOT OUR will …… GODS WILL …………..

            Ephesians
            1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
            1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
            1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
            1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
            1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
            1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
            1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
            1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
            1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

          • ppp777

            You are talking calvanism , that is pure heresy ,” God has no wish that ANYONE should perish but ALL come to repentance ” , of course there is a cut off point , predestination by for knowledge yes , unconditional predestination , pure heresy .

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope …. i am talking SCRIPTURE ….. What you Got ………….

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Salvation requires believing in God, right? How can that then be considered a “free gift”?

          • hiernonymous

            Rev 22:17

            “The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.”

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            is salvation a gift from God ….. YES …… is it open to every person ….. SURE …… but you cannot show any scripture with specificity where any person chose God WITHOUT GOD …. none …… God is sovereign ….. God is in control of salvation ….. as the Savior He does not require even one thing from us to save us ….. and that includes our cooperation, our “decision”, our assent, our permission, our free will, nor any other thing ….. we are dead men and women, dead in our trespasses and sins …….. “there is none that seeketh after God” …. and none means NONE …..

            Romans
            3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
            3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
            3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

            it is a sovereign ELECTION ….. and we have no part in it ….. “lest any man should boast” ………

          • hiernonymous

            Right. So every man is a sinner, and comes to salvation, not by deserving or earning it, but through faith. Am I on track so far?

            So you also had this to say:

            “Many Christians are gay.”

            contradiction in terms …. sorry ….

            That seemed a little puzzling.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            faith is a COMMAND …. it is not a “choice” ………. it is a specific COMMAND from God …… we have no ability to say “nope, maybe later” ………. and faith (SALVIFIC FAITH) ONLY comes from God …… man is not capable of manufacturing it ……….

            “So you also had this to say: “Many Christians are gay.””

            sorry …. you are going to have to better than that ….. first, probably out of context IF I DID say that ….. which i do not believe i did ……….. NOW to correct that misstatement ……

            “Many Christians are FORMER homosexuals.”

            and see …. you want to know how i know i did not say that ……. because I DO NOT USE THE WORD GAY to describe a homosexual ….. i SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDE that as a description …… it is a bastardization of the language ….

          • hiernonymous

            Do you see the grey line along the left side of the inset material? That’s a function in Disqus knows as the “block quote.” It indicates quoted material.

            Now, within the quoted material, there is a second set of quotes. What you’re seeing is a post in which you quoted material to which you were replying – “Many Christians are gay” – and to which you responded “contradiction in terms …. sorry …..

            This should enable you to read the first post correctly and offer a meaningful response.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and i have already given SEVERAL meaningful responses to it ……… just roll back up the page there ………. but if that is too difficult for you …………

            again …. contradiction in terms ….. there are no ACTIVE MURDERER christians ….. there are no ACTIVE THIEF christians …… there are no ACTIVE ADULTERER christians …… there is no such thing as a (fill in your sin here) christian …… there are no “sin modifier””hyphenated” christian ……… that does not mean christians are sinless …… it means that we agree with God WHAT SIN IS …… and that WE ARE SINNERS …….. and that we leave sin behind to the best of our ability as we agree with God ….. and saying you are a “homosexual christian” ….. is saying i can keep my sin and be somehow in agreement with God ……
            SORRY ….. that option is not on the table ….. we do not have the option of saying i agree with God “EXCEPT” ….. and have that be “okay” ………

          • hiernonymous

            “….. but if that is too difficult for you …….”

            Careful! Wrath and pride are sins. And don’t forget the command to “love your neighbor.” Remember, you do not have the option of saying that you agree with God “except” when you get irritated at someone online. Just sayin’….

            I saw your other post and have responded to it there.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            well you do not seem to understand what “love” is … and i doubt you could give a BIBLICAL description of it …. so no worries for me ……. JUST SAYIN’ ………

          • hiernonymous

            “…well you do not seem to understand what “love” is .”

            Why do you say that? What did I say that contradicts your understanding of Biblical love?

            A pretty common understanding of “love your neighbor as yourself” involves placing the interests and safety of your neighbor on a level with your own, and treating him with respect and concern.

            It’s pretty obvious that “love” doesn’t always mean “nice,” but that wasn’t the point of my comment. We talk of “tough love,” of the need to protect those we love from the errors of their ways, but this does not ever call on us to be snarky, belittling, or engaging in little online dominance games.

            Again, at a casual glance, it seems as if you rationalize the sins that are important to you while denouncing those you don’t share.

            Just sayin’…

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you have not shown any understanding of the bible at all ….. much less what “love” is in a biblical sense ….. FYI ….. there are 8 different words used in scripture for the English word “love” …… so until you can be SPECIFIC about what you mean …… i really do not care about your perception of the QUALITY of my love for anyone in what i say ……….

          • hiernonymous

            “FYI ….. there are 8 different words used in scripture for the English word “love” ”

            Yes, that’s why I very specifically wrote “[a} pretty common understanding of “love your neighbor as yourself….”

            This distinguishes the term as used in this passage from the many other ways it’s used.

            How much more specific do you want to get? And if you think you have a better definition, feel free to highlight how it differs from my usage and its implications.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            again … that is not specific …… and it is not a definition of love ….. just an example ….. but in any case ….. i have no problem with that passage and if it was applied to me ….. i would EXPECT that even if the truth hurt …… it would STILL be love if someone used it to tell me the TRUTH, hurt or no hurt ………….. SO WHAT …………..

          • hiernonymous

            A: “again … that is not specific …… and it is not a definition of love ….. just an example …”

            Okay – scroll up and notice that I wrote this: “How much more specific do you want to get? And if you think you have a better definition, feel free to highlight how it differs from my usage and its implications.”

            If you’re dissatisfied with my comment, I’ll wait for you to explain how you understand the term and point out the defects in my usage. I’m easy.

            ” i would EXPECT that even if the truth hurt ..”

            That presupposes that you understand the truth better than the other. If your daughter is getting ready for her first dance and asks “Daddy, do I look pretty?” Your understanding of “love” would be to respond “Darling, you are as ugly as the day is long, and it’s mighty long this time of year.” I mean, if it’s the truth, that’s love, right?

            Or is it just possible that how we convey the truth is also an important component of love? Food for thought.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you can look up the use of the words for love in scripture ….. but all you want to do is throw the word around in some generic fashion and have it be taken seriously ….. nope …. not gonna happen …. if you want to make a point … it is up to you to make an educated one ….. it is not up to me to play word games with you …. especially when it is clear your intent is to do just that … play at word games ……….

          • hiernonymous

            “… but all you want to do is throw the word around in some generic fashion and have it be taken seriously ….. nope …. not gonna happen ”

            You haven’t shown my use to be in error. Are you implying that anything I wrote is in any way inconsistent with agape?

            “… if you want to make a point … it is up to you to make an educated one .”

            I’ve made my point. If you think there’s an error contained therein, make your case.

            ” it is not up to me to play word games with you .”

            Well, yes, it is, when you attempt to elude a point by insisting “that word doesn’t mean what you think it means.”

            If you believe that there are translational issues that are germane to my comment, make them explicit. Don’t expect to be given credit for an argument you can’t be bothered to make.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “You haven’t shown my use to be in error. ”

            you have not shown what your use is ……… not on me … it is on you …….. and again ….. you just want to throw it around in a nonspecific way ….. it is just a word game ……….

          • hiernonymous

            H: “A pretty common understanding of “love your neighbor as yourself” involves placing the interests and safety of your neighbor on a level with your own, and treating him with respect and concern.”

            You haven’t explained how this is inadequate for our purposes. Over to you.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “love your neighbor as yourself”

            i said that is an example ….. it is not the definition ….. if you mean the passage below from Matthew ….. then IN CONTEXT it does not mean what you are trying to make it mean …….. “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment” is the first FOUR commandments of the 10 commandments ……… it is a RESTATEMENT of the first four commandments ……. from Exodus …..

            20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
            20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
            20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
            20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
            20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
            20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
            20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
            20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
            20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
            20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

            AND “And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” …. is simply a RESTATEMENT of the last 6 commandments …….

            20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
            20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
            20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
            20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
            20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
            20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

            this is the “love” …. the AGAPE “love” that it is referring to in that passage ……. to love (in a social or moral sense) …. get that last bit … a MORAL SENSE ………….

            22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
            22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
            22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
            22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
            22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

            G25
            ἀγαπάω
            agapaō
            ag-ap-ah’-o
            Perhaps from ἄγαν agan (much; or compare [H5689]); to love (in a social or moral sense): – (be-) love (-ed). Compare G5368.

          • hiernonymous

            Yes, I understand agape. Which is perfectly consistent with the idea of placing the interests and welfare of one’s fellow man on a level with one’s own.

            As for unterpreting the great commandment as a simple consolidation of the first four, two comments:
            1) That’s an appealing inference, but it’s just an inference.
            2) It doesn’t matter. Jesus was explaining the guiding spirit behind the law. There’s no reason to think that either of his answers was limited to the letter of the ten commandments.

            Which takes us back to this idea of loving one’s neighbor as oneself: how else is love to be understood in this context, if not elevating his interests and welfare to be on one’s own plane?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … that is READING THE TEXT IN CONTEXT ….. and not PROOFTEXTING it and destroying its meaning ….. in fact ….. the passage says …. NOT BY “INFERENCE” ….. but ….. DIRECTLY …. the first and second GREAT COMMANDMENT ……. not “inference” ………

            …………… CONTEXT …….. which you want to IGNORE …………

          • hiernonymous

            The context is a challenge from the Pharisees to select the greatest of the laws. I don’t think that’s universally acknowledged to be limited to a discussion of the ten commandments, nor is his response universally acknowledged to be merely a categorizing of the commandments.

            I’m always open to learning new things, and I’m by no means an expert, so if you have a source you’d like to share that suggests differently, I’m all ears, so to speak.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
            22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
            22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
            22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
            22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

            hmmm … lets highlight what is being said and see what comes up …..

            22:36 Master, which is the great COMMANDMENT in the LAW? (so we are talking about the LAW, the 10 COMMANDMENTS are the MORAL LAW)
            22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (the first 4 of the 10 DEAL WITH OUR RELATIONSHIP TO GOD, so it is the 10 COMMANDMENTS)
            22:38 This is the first and great COMMANDMENTS. (GOD is the first thing mentioned, and here the 10 COMMANDMENTS AGAIN are mentioned and GOD IS ALWAYS the most important)
            22:39 And the SECOND is LINE UNTO IT, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (so since we ARE talking about the 10 COMMANDMENTS AND THE MORAL LAW, then we must be next referring to the REST of the 10 COMMANDMENTS and they ALL deal with our relationship to others)
            22:40 On these two COMMANDMENTS hang ALL THE LAW and the prophets.

            and IN FACT the word “LOVE” here or AGAPE ….. deals with and is defined as LOVE IS A MORAL SENSE ….. nothing to “infer” …… it is a DIRECT READING of the TEXT in CONTEXT …….

            the entire passage SCREAMS what it is about …..

          • hiernonymous

            But “the law” was considerably broader than simply the ten commandments. Since you’ve shown a mastery of Biblical linguistics, can you explain the koine Greek terms used for “commandment” and “law” in this verse, and show how they translate or are linked to the Hebrew in such a way as to exclude the rest of the law as the Pharisees would have understood it?

            “deals with and is defined as LOVE IS A MORAL SENSE”

            Sure. And reading this as “put your neighbor’s interests and welfare on a plane with your own” is perfectly consistent with that. It’s a moral exhortation, not a call for affection. How else could you understand it?

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            I for one am enjoying this conversation. I hope he doesn’t turn to stone on you and just respond with a series of “ignored”s like he does to others.

          • hiernonymous

            Thanks. It could be a productive conversation if he’s willing.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “If sinners will be damned, at least let them leap to hell over our bodies. And if they will perish, let them perish with our arms around their knees, imploring them to stay. If hell must be filled, at least let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions, and let not one go there unwarned and unprayed for. – C.H. Spurgeon.

            try that for a definition of “love” …………

          • hiernonymous

            Sure. “Tough love.” That’s not how I read a lot of your snark, but only you and God know for sure.

            And that’s sort of my point. Rather than insisting that you’re not a “real” Christian, I’ll simply point out some of the problems with wrath and leave it there.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you cannot even point to any “wrath” ….. so monumental FAIL ….. See ya ………

          • hiernonymous

            you cannot even point to any “wrath” ….. so monumental FAIL ….. See ya ………

            Emphasis added. Seems to be slipping in that direction, at any rate.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            zzzzzzzzz …… boring …………

          • hiernonymous

            So we need to add sloth to your list? Okay!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            boring ………… zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz …………….

          • hiernonymous

            I’m sorry – was I supposed to be entertaining you? Is your attention span long enough to make that realistic?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “So we need to add sloth to your list? Okay!”

            YUP …. BORING ….. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ………..

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            God gets angry and perturbed ….. so it is NOT a sin …. as God is sinless ……… FAIL ……….

          • hiernonymous

            It’s not a sin for God to be wrathful.

            There are a few reasons wrath is sinful. One is that the recipient may not deserve it. An omniscient God would not make such a mistake, as He knows what is in the heart of the recipient of his wrath. It doesn’t follow that you can be so discerning in your own anger.

            Another is that it involves wishing ill toward another. An all-merciful God wants perfect justice and mercy (and, being omniscient and omnipotent, can presumably reconcile those two in a way mortals would have problems with). It is His place to know best how to teach lessons, and know to whom those lessons are necessary. Trying to make yourself look clever online, or to belittle others, or to want to embarrass them – none of that would fall under His example.

            The logic “if God does X, then it’s okay for me” is pretty silly. You might disapprove of a lot of the things going on in Cairo, but you don’t get to blow up the Aswan High Dam and flood it. Just because God issued commandments doesn’t mean you get to, also. And don’t let’s get started on the precedent of impregnating another man’s fiance.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            no commandment to not ever get angry …. and you do not get to make it up as you go …. FAIL ……….

          • hiernonymous

            Where did I write that there was a “commandment” to not ever get angry? Careful – you’re slipping toward “bearing false witness,” and there is a commandment about that!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you did not … but you seem to think you can …. nothing in scripture about getting angry as a sin … so … NOT A SIN ……

          • hiernonymous

            Isn’t there? Apart from its inclusion as one of the seven deadly sins in the Catholic catechism, let’s see if we can find anything about it in scripture:

            From Galatians 5:

            19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

            20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

            21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

            Emphasis added.

            Matthew 5:22 tells us “But I tell you, that everyone who is angry with his
            brother without a cause shall be in danger of the
            judgment; and whoever shall say to his brother, ‘Raca!’
            shall be in danger of the council; and whoever shall say,
            ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of the fire of Gehenna.”

            Forgive me for anticipating – I can almost hear the keys clicking “but I have cause!” Keep reading the rest of the verse.

            Since I’m sure you want to be honest, careful, and righteous in your reading, make sure that you read what I actually said about wrath. If you’re posting to “win,” rather than to reach truth, that should give you pause.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i am not defending the RCC …. i do not defend what i do not believe ……. and you have shown NO WRATH …….. and no anger …. FAIL ………… you have your vain imaginings …. i do not care …………

          • hiernonymous

            Wait – you’re dodging!

            You said “nothing in scripture about getting angry as a sin.”

            I gave you two pieces of scripture that address anger as a sin.

            And – crickets on that?

            “and you have shown NO WRATH …….. and no anger …. FAIL ………… you have your vain imaginings …. i do not care ………”

            All caps is generally understood to be the online equivalent of shouting, a common symptom of anger. And as a general observation, “I do not care” is usually not indicative of happiness. I’m not trying to make a case that you’re committing a sin at this moment, but offering a general observation that the tenor of your online interactions seems pretty angry and judgmental, a combination which runs afoul of a pretty standard understanding of wrath as a sin.

            If your online hobby is going to be declaring groups of sinners to be other than Christian, that’s probably worth keeping in mind.

            You did say that you’d expect hearing the truth as a sign of love.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … wrath is not anger ….. and YOU have not shown that i am “angry” ……… so again …… FAIL ………… all you have are YOUR vain imaginings of what you think you read into what was written …. nothing more ……… FAIL ……….

          • hiernonymous

            As far as “proving” that you are engaged in the sin of wrath – I’m okay with your take. I’m not trying to prove that you’re guilty – I’m pointing out that, really, only you and God know for sure.

            But you DID defy me to produce scripture linking anger to sin – and I did so. And you’re still offering crickets on that. Why?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … you did not ….. Wrath is not anger ….. in scripture it is 2. vengeance or punishment as the consequence of anger …… and the sin of anger at a PERSON is MURDER …. that is what Matthew was pointing out ….. anger at SIN and the ACCEPTANCE of SIN and at the offences to God ….. NOT the samething … you are making category errors …………….

          • hiernonymous

            “…that is what Matthew was pointing out ….”

            Not exactly. He was pointing out that being angry enough to want to murder was sinful.

            “… anger at SIN and the ACCEPTANCE of SIN and at the offences to God ….. NOT the samething…”

            If that is, in fact, what one is angry at. That fits firmly into the “only you and God know the truth of that.” I’d infer that anyone who spends as much time in angry exchanges with others might have other issues going on as well.

            And you didn’t address the other verse I gave you, in which anger is discussed as one of the sins of the flesh. That would seem to be wrapped up pretty well with the sort of anger one experiences when one’s pride is challenged, or one wants to make sport of others online. N’est pas?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope …. it was pointing out that the level for entering heaven is SO HIGH ….. no man is capable of attaining it ….. that the mere thought is enough to keep us out ……. that looking at a woman with lust IS ADULTERY ….. that thought of anger at a person IS MURDER ….. and so forth …. and our ONLY avenue to God the Father and Heaven is with Christ as our savior ……….. “I’d infer that anyone who spends as much time in angry exchanges” …. sure …. now all you have to do is prove an angry exchange ….. and you have not …….. and anger at WHAT ……. anger at sin is no vice …… “in which anger is discussed as one of the sins of the flesh.” ….. you mean the one with “wrath” …. i certainly did ……. and again …. ANGER AT WHAT ……

          • hiernonymous

            …”that thought of anger at a person IS MURDER …”

            There you go.

            “…. and again …. ANGER AT WHAT ……”

            Did you miss my comment? Perhaps you’re typing too quickly, or too soon?

            As I noted, only you know what drives your emotions. I’m not trying to prove that they’re sinful. It’s not necessary – it’s Christian doctrine that all men are guilty of sin. There’s no need to pin a particular one on you to question the eagerness with which you denounce a particular sin.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “only you know what drives your emotions”

            saw it .. read it …. but then you seem to forget what you said ………..

          • hiernonymous

            Nope. We discussed inferences and judgment. Never forget the context of your original claim that there are no homosexual Christians.

            Just because you seem angry to me doesn’t mean that I know you to be sinfully so. As I said some time ago, only you and God know that.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Wrath

            noun
            1. strong, stern, or fierce anger; deeply resentful indignation; ire.
            2. vengeance or punishment as the consequence of anger.

            Guess you’re wrong again, Amos. Wrath IS anger.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            in the BIBLICAL CONTEXT ….. not your DICTIONARY CONTEXT ….. FAIL …………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Don’t tell me you still haven’t figured out that the dictionary is the tool we use to define words, and not the Bible?

            Let me ask you this, what do you think they use to translate the Bible from one language to another? Wouldn’t be the DICTIONARY, would it?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Don’t tell me you still haven’t figured out that the dictionary is the tool we use to define words, and not the Bible?”

            Don’t tell me you still haven’t figured out that GOD has defined words, and not the dictionary ….. in fact the first dictionaries were full BASED ON THE BIBLICAL TEXTS …….. so it seems you know nothing of HISTORY ………….

          • Silas Jennings

            God is not the definer of words either. Human beings use oral and written language and we are the ones who determine the unifying definitions. Not God. Not the Bible. The DICTIONARY is the tool for that. Which means that atheists and theists alike can be counted on to understand each other. Leave your religion out of it; it is not relevant here.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            GOD is the definer of EVERYTHING ……

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Even if I was your kind of Christian and believed God created everything, then no, he STILL doesn”t “define” anything. That’s why we have…dah dah dah….THE DICTIONARY!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you are not any kind of christian … so not sure what the point of your comment is ……….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            The point is right in front of your eyes. Other Christians find what you say to be just as absurd as what the atheists think.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            whoop – dee – do ………. SO WHAT ….. the truth IS OFFENSIVE ….. and you are too much of a child to accept the truth …………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            You aren’t in any position to talk about truth. You are utterly brainwashed with hate and crap.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you do not know the truth …….. the truth is alien to your being …….. if you knew and accepted the truth ….. then you would be here in a different capacity ….. you are not ….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Truth is that which can be proven and you have never done that.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … you have it BACKWARDS …. truth is not proven ….. it is the standard by which all else is measured …… there is no higher standard than the truth …… to say it has to be proven says that there is something higher …. and there is not ….. truth is either accepted or rejected …. and you reject it ………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Truth must be evident, otherwise it’s not truth. It isn’t something you are told by a holy book that you just accept. That is not how truth is defined.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            again … if it is not evident to you ….. there is nothing anyone here can do to cure your …. and it is YOUR ….. problem ….. if you need clarification of the truth …. then YOU need to seek the truth ….. in the PERSON OF CHRIST JESUS ….. and all we can do is GIVE you the truth …. which as of now …. YOU REJECT ……… and unless and until Christ alters YOUR condition ….. nothing more can be done …………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Given your made-up definitions for things, TRUTH among them, it should be obvious to anyone that it’s not ME with the problem. I know what truth is. To say the sun is going to rise tomorrow morning in the east is the truth. It’s based on a scientific principle and I can observe it every day of my life to know it’s the truth. You walking around threatening people with a holy book is not truth. Never was. Never will be.

            And by the way, the dictionary is your friend.

          • TruthvLIes

            If you dont know Jesus, you don’t know what truth is because he said that he was the way, THE truth and the life and anyone with common sense knows that is the truth.

            Only those in denial because they cannot handle the truth claim otherwise.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            You don’t know Jesus either. You know only intolerance and hatred.

          • TruthvLIes

            I think you had better book yourself in to see a psychiatrist as your comments are getting weirder by the day and make no sense whatsoever.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            You know as well as I do that a psychiatrist would probably just tell me to stop talking to Christian zealots.

          • TruthvLIes

            What I do know is that you are totally delusional and you can’t see it because you are so delusional.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Rather than making general insults like a four year old, why don’t you provide an example and tell me what I am deluded about, then I can provide a source to you that proves I’m not, and you can get embarrassed and apologize?

          • TruthvLIes

            Why should I cast pearls before swine when I am told not to?

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            So your username should be just changed to LIES then, since that’s really all you’ve got…

          • TruthvLIes

            Was that supposed to be a joke?? if it was it was totally lame.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            It’s not a joke. You are. Lying is all you have done so far. And call names.

          • TruthvLIes

            No of course not. it is you that is the joke thinking that you are going to come on here and tell us all that we are wrong and you are right. Now THAT IS a joke.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            truth stands on its own and needs no “proof” ….. YOU need proof …. that is YOUR problem …. not anyone elses ………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            You don’t use the dictionary’s definition of “truth”, so why should anyone listen to you?

          • TruthvLIes

            Neither have you. What you consider truth is nothing more than a litany of lies.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            If I can’t prove it I don’t walk around calling it truth like you do.

          • TruthvLIes

            That means you can’t prove a single thing you say as of yet you have not told the truth one single time.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Give an example, if you can. I don’t think you can.

          • TruthvLIes

            That is true. You don’t think. You say the first thing that enters your tiny mind.

          • TruthvLIes

            Projection much???

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            No, why?

          • TruthvLIes

            Yes why not?

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            I don’t project. There is your answer.

          • TruthvLIes

            Is that so? Best to avoid it then and people will stop thinking you project as you make a very good projectionist.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            I don’t think you even know what you’re talking about. You are here to argue, cause trouble, and get banned. Well, don’t let me stop you. You’re not the first obnoxious troll here and you won’t be the last.

          • TruthvLIes

            And you know what you are talking about?? Joke??

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “there are no ACTIVE MURDERER christians ….. there are no ACTIVE THIEF christians …… there are no ACTIVE ADULTERER christians”

            …there are no true Scotsmen…

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and more silliness from the peanut gallery ………… more of your category errors …….. here is a quarter … go buy another bag …..

        • TSawesome

          Amos, when did you make your personal choice to be heterosexual?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            we all choose our favorite sin ……. homosexuality was nty my favorite sin …. but i had others …. so what …….

          • TSawesome

            No, you didn’t ever “choose” to be heterosexual over homosexual. It wasn’t a temptation to you because human orientation is innate, a factor of the way God created us all. Some were created with orientation toward the same sex and some toward the opposite sex. That’s just part of humanity, all created in God’s image.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            the only thing innate about humans is their orientation to SIN ….. and nothing else …..

          • TSawesome

            How very Augustinian of you…

          • Nick Halflinger

            …et quid de nobis, fratres, qui inter faeces et urinam nascimur…

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Something something feces and urine. I hope it means something a little more substantial, haha.

          • Nick Halflinger

            “We noble brothers are born amid feces and urine”

          • ppp777

            There is no choice there , experience turns you reprobate .

  • ZappaSaid88

    Great job Aussies! Love wins, hate loses (again).

    • Amos Moses – He>i

      winning a ticket to early death ….. not much of a win ….. for love or anything else ………

      • Michael C

        Marriage leads to an early death?

        You’re going to have to back that assertion up with statistics ‘cuz I just don’t believe you.

        • Amos Moses – He>i

          being homosexual does …. a piece of paper does not alter the science ………. science that you have already been shown and rejected ………. so what would be the point …………

          • Michael C

            Gay people are gay regardless of whether or not their marriages are legally recognized by the government.

            The recognition of their marriages doesn’t shorten their lifespan. It very probably increases their lifespan, statistically speaking.

            You understand that, right?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Gay people are gay regardless of whether or not their marriages””The recognition of their marriages doesn’t shorten their lifespan”

            BEING homosexual shortens their life …..being homomarried does not alter that TRUTH …….

          • Michael C

            Simply being gay doesn’t shorten a person’s lifespan. That’s ridiculous and ignorant.

            Engaging in risky behaviors can shorten a person’s lifespan. Being gay isn’t a “risky behavior.”

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            YES it does …. as they are not just homosexuals ……. they PRACTICE ……….. and there is no reason to NOT PRACTICE in homomarriage …….. love does not harm to another …… but everything the homosexual does ….. does harm …. to themselves …. their partners ….. and society in general …..

          • Reason2012

            Being homosexual = homosexual behavior. Homosexual behavior = far greater risk of death.
            So yes, if someone never engages in homosexual behavior but claims to be a homosexual, just claiming it doesn’t shorten their lifespan. Pretending people are just claiming it and not engaging in it is what’s ridiculous and ignorant.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            You might need to hear this from several people, so be it. Being gay doesn’t reduce a person’s lifespan. If it’s specific sexual “activities” you are referring to, the same activities are just as harmful to heterosexuals who engage in the same thing.

          • Reason2012

            Heterosexuals do not engages with man on man_sex, which is the point. So no, heterosexuals are not affected by “the same activities”.

            Center for disease control government website reports in 2013/14

            Although homosexuals, or men who have sex with men (MSM), make up about 2% of the U.S. population, they account for 67% of “all new HIV diagnoses,” according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

            In addition, there are about 1.2 million people in the United States with HIV, the virus that causes AIDS, and an estimated 647,700 (54%) of those people are homosexuals, or MSM.

            The 67% of all new HIV cases is for 2013 and the 54% living with HIV is for 2011, the latest years, according to the CDC, for that particular data.

            Among some of the other facts about HIV/AIDS, reported by the CDC, are:

            — About 50,000 people become newly infected each year in the United States.

            — “More than 14,000 people with AIDS in the United States die each year.”

            — “More than 650,000 people with AIDS in the United States have died” since the epidemic started in the early 1980s.

            — “Men who have sex with men (MSM) remain the group most heavily affected by HIV in the United States.”

            — “White MSM continue to represent the largest number of new HIV infections among MSM (11,200), followed closely by black MSM (10,600)and Hispanic MSM (6,700).”

            — “The number of new infections among the youngest MSM (aged 13-24) increased 22 percent, from 7,200 infections in 2008 to 8,800 in 2010.”

            2014: 37,600 new HIV infections, 70% of them are because of male-to-male sexual contact. 2% of the population responsible for 70% of the cases of HIV. But the activists try to pretend that “being homosexual doesn’t reduce a person’s lifespan” or “heterosexuals are just as much at risk”, which only shows how determined they are to deceive. Read other sources, not just their talking points.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            -HIV attacks straight people as well as homosexuals. There are ways to protect against HIV and they work for people regardless of orientation. If more homosexuals are contracting the disease, it just means more homosexuals are not protecting against it.

            -Statistically, your numbers are irrelevant. More gay people than straight have HIV? That’s merely because more gay men are sexually promiscuous and don’t use the proper protection. Being gay has nothing to do with the numbers being what they are. If a monogamous gay couple takes the accepted precautions, they aren’t going to magically contract HIV. It doesn’t work that way.

            In fact there’s no point working through your list because it all comes back to the same point. We know what causes HIV, it doesn’t discriminate by orientation. Anyone can get it and everyone who takes the right precautions can avoid it.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “You might need to hear this from several people, so be it. Being gay DOES reduce a person’s lifespan.”

            If AIDS was the cause of death, the median age was 39 years old. For the 829 homosexuals who died of something else besides AIDS, the median age was 42 years of age, and 9% died old. Of 163 lesbians, the median age was 44 years of age, and 20% died old. 2.8% of homosexuals died violently and they were 116 times more apt to be murdered, 24 times more apt to commit suicide, and had a traffic accident death rate 18 times greater than comparably aged white males. 20% of lesbians died of murder, suicide, or accident, a rate 487 times greater than that of white females aged 25 to 44.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            And what do those stats mean, Amos? What are you trying to make them say? The original point was that being homosexual does not in and of itself make a person die young. That remains true. If they are being murdered by bigots or driven to suicide by bigots, those are outside factors unrelated to the orientation itself.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i do not have to make them say ANYTHING …… homosexuals DIE EARLY from ALL CAUSES …. “If they are being murdered by bigots or driven to suicide by bigots” … and that was not part of the study ….. but in fact most homosexuals are murdered by their “partners” ….. as with ALL MURDERS ….. the victim is usually known by the perpetrator ……….. a family member or “partner” ….. and suicide ….. blacks have suffered FAR more “bigotry” for being black and it is FAR more visible ….. and there is ZERO increase in suicide for that reason ….. so you are just trying to BLOW SMOKE up your own skirt …….. and you HAVE NO EVIDENCE …………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            I know several gay and lesbian couples and all of them have been together at least ten years. If I am to believe what you are writing they are statistically likely to murder each other or commit suicide. Or a killer disease is just going to show up and kill them, never mind that they have been completely monogamous and faithful to each other. Your problem is one of stereotyping, Amos. You want us to believe that all homosexuals are bed-hopping, disease-ridden hedonists living life for kicks. That shows how far you need to go before you earn the right to be taken seriously on this subject.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            anecdotal and So What …….. does not alter the fact they will die 10-20 years before their time ……….. and statistics taken from homosexual journals of causes of deaths in the obituaries of those journals is the evidence ………. not my problem …. theirs …. and your disbelief …. is your problem ….

            Obituraries numbering 6516 from 16 US homosexual journals over 12 years were compared to a large sample of obituaries from regular newspapers. The obituaries from the regular newspapers were similar to US averages for longevity, the median age of death of married men was 75, 80% of them died old, 65 or older. For unmarried or divorced men the median age of death was 57 and 32% of them died old.

            Married women averaged age 79 at death, 85% died old, and unmarried and divorced women averaged age 71, and 60% of them died old.

            However, the median age of death for homosexuals was virtually the same nationwide, and overall, less than 2% survived to old age.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Your stats continue to fail to prove that simply being homosexual reduces your lifespan.

            Regarding the LGBT couples I know, one of the lesbian couples are getting close to 70 and the gay couple reached 70 a while ago, so since they fly directly in the face of your garbage stats, I’d say you’re officially in the FAIL camp.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            it outright proves the statistics ….. that you want to REJECT as you REJECT all TRUTH ……… what else is knew ………..

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            All right, I will tell the living examples that completely blow your asinine statistics to hell that they are lying because Amos, who doesn’t know you at all but knows everything about you somehow, said so.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            GOD knows … GOD has declared …. and GOD told us about it …. and the statistics BARE THE TRUTH ……. and i really hope you do tell them …. maybe they will get the message … FINALLY ….. and you would be helping them out and you would be doing the work of Christ ….. THNX ……….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Why is it when the things you say get so totally blown out of the water do you suddenly attribute them to God?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            easy …. EVERYTHING is attributable to God ….. as GOD CREATED EVERYTHING ….. and it all belongs to HIM …. Science, Logic, Reason, ….. EVERYTHING ……… (psst ….. even you) ……

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Crock of beans.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            is that a scientific statement ……..

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            It’s a deep truth.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            it might be a deep “Crock of beans.” ……. but not much else ………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            You aren’t going to get anywhere with anyone by abandoning every single argument and pointing at a bunch of irrelevant scripture, or God.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            not my job to “get you” anywhere …….. you reject the truth ….. the scripture has done its job …. it drives you away …. not up to me to chase after a liar ……..

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            I don’t reject truth. I reject most of what you say which is in no sense “truth”.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you do not know the truth …………….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            You have zero authority to make such a statement. Sorry. FAIL

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you are at least absolutely correct in that … i have no authority to make up my own truth …. and neither do you ….. BUT ….. i am able to recognize the truth and state it ….. and truth does not have an internal locus ….. it comes from outside our being …… but you think it comes from inside you …… and you do not know it …….. Christ is the way, THE TRUTH, and the life ….. and you do not know Him …. you reject Him …..

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            No, because every time you are pressed about the truth, you either double down on something that is just your opinion or you abandon the discussion completely and say SCRIPTURE, even when it makes no sense.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you reject the truth … the truth is in scripture and Christ is the truth …. and again … you REJECT it ….. i abandon a fruitless conversation about truth to a person who will not accept truth ………. you will not accept Christ …. ¯_(ツ)_/¯ ……….. not my problem …. it is yours ……….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Any time you measure truth by your own opinions and ignore the simple dictionary definition of what the word means, you show everyone EXACTLY what the problem is, and it’s very much yours.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Oh boy, you’re not gonna win this one. I mean, you will, but Amos won’t see it that way.

          • ppp777

            They are reprobates , sodomites , they are anything but ” gay “

          • Kevin Canuckster

            Sadly, encouraging an institution that supports relationships that do dramatically reduce the lifespans ( 8-20 years) of the adherents, is not love.
            Those that suuport same sex relationships need to gain a deeper understanding of love.

          • Michael C

            Sadly, encouraging an institution that supports relationships that do dramatically reduce the lifespans ( 8-20 years) of the adherents, is not love.

            Firstly, the government doesn’t need to “love” me, it just needs to respect my freedom, rights, and equality.

            Second, simply being gay does not reduce a person’s lifespan.

            Lifelong pair-bonding increases life expectancy. As a culture, it would be wise to encourage lifelong pair-bonding.

          • Tangent002 ✓

            The average age of death of a homosexual is lower due to the prevalence of AIDS-related deaths, however, simply being homosexual doesn’t shorten one’s lifespan.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Let’s not forget the suicides brought on by people (often in religious circles) who promote guilt and shame.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            death from all causes EVEN if you ELIMINATE HIV/AIDS …..

          • Kevin Canuckster

            Actually it does, and it reduces quality of life. There are many more diseases beyond AIDS that are prevalent in the lifestyle.
            Love is not simple acceptance of a behavior, it is caring enough to be honest.

          • TruthvLIes

            Over the last 10 years Kevin, I have followed the comments of homosexuals very closely and I have found almost without exception, that the truth is the opposite of what they claim.

            For example they claim that you are born homosexual. Of course we know that to be a lie.

            They claim once a homosexual always a homosexual. Of course we know that to be a lie.

            They claim that we the normal people are responsible for all the suicides of homosexuals. Of course we know that to be a lie.

            They claim that they are being denied equal rights because they can’t legally marry each other. Of course we know that to be a lie.

            They claim that because they cannot marry they are second class citizens. Of course we know that is a lie.

            They claim that everyone who does not agree with them is homophobic. Of course we know that is a lie.

            They claim that being homosexual is the happiest thing on earth. Of course we know that to be a lie.

            They claim that they are always the victim. Of course we know that to be a lie.

            They claim that STDs are not prevalent amongst homosexuals. Of course we know that to be a lie.

            They claim they live just as long as anyone else. Of course we know that is a lie.

            Of course, when you can’t handle the truth, all you can do is deny it exists which is what they do and because that is what they do they are miserable, unhappy, unhealthy, emotionally distraught and a danger to themselves.

            It is no different to a heterosexual who denies everything that is wrong with them. They, like homosexuals, live in cloud cuckoo land.

    • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

      Right now it does seem as though sin is winning. For a short season it will continue to win.
      But in the end God wins.Nothing can stop God.

      • This style 10/6

        More and more jurisdictions are adopting same sex marriage. How do you explain that?

        • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

          I’m talking about God winning in the end.
          And I already said for a short season sin will win.This is only the beginning of what will seem as though sin wins.A lot more sins will win. and again only for a short season. In the end God wins.and you will not be able to stop God.

          • This style 10/6

            We are doing a pretty good job so far.

            Sin is something that only exists in the minds of certain groups. It is not a thing in itself; that is, homosexual acts are not “sinful”, they are merely sex.

          • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

            Yes you are doing a good job with your sins I agree. But again you will enjoy your sins for a short season.
            But in the end God wins over all your sins and all the sins of the world.
            Glory be to God knowing nothing can stop God.

          • Nick Halflinger

            Actually, folks will get to enjoy their sins until they die, then we will see – Nothing, Valhalla, Nirvana, or Heaven

          • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

            I hope God will let me see you and ask you two questions on the other side of life.

          • Nick Halflinger

            And if it turns out to be Valhalla maybe we will be sharing a tankard of mead.

          • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

            If God willing I will see you on the other side of life with my questions.

          • Nick Halflinger

            By the way, thank you for making the assumption that we will both be in Heaven

          • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

            As a Christian I believe you will one day face Christ. That would be the time I want to face you.Now if you repent and come to God through His Son than the questions I have would no longer be needed. Then I see you as a sister in Christ. That would be my greatest desire for you. With God all things are possible.

          • Nick Halflinger

            “With God all things are possible.”

            But not necessarily probable.

          • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

            According to you. And that’s because you are trying to be mean to me.

          • Nick Halflinger

            Yes, I took three days off. I am not obsessed with blogging every day. I am planning on being gone most of tomorrow and will probably not be posting.

            I am sorry that you feel that my not sharing your view of an omnipotent God distress you to the point of thinking that I am mean. Unfortunately, this probably means that you will find more than half the population of the planet are mean and unkind.

            As an aside, how should I interpret your hope to be sitting at Jesus’ side and personally questioning me on Judgement Day? That also seems both hubris and mean spirited.

          • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

            Thank you for giving me the three days before being unkind to me. Have a great day. Don’t spend the whole being unkind to the ones you hate. May the Lord God show you how to be kind to the ones you hate. Even though it’s not always fun to be kind to someone you hate,but give it a try. It may not be as bad as you think.
            Shalom

        • Amos Moses – He>i

          abandonment of truth … thats how ….. and scripture said it would happen … no surprises there ……..

          • This style 10/6

            I don’t think Australians bother too much about scripture.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ohhhh …. not blocked any more ….. there are some VERY GOOD churches in the outback ….. so i disagree ………..

          • This style 10/6

            The growing percentage of Australia’s population reporting no religion has been a trend for decades, and is accelerating. Those reporting no religion increased noticeably from 19 per cent in 2006 to 30 per cent in 2016. The largest change was between 2011 (22 per cent) and 2016, when an additional 2.2 million people reported having no religion. (Australian Bureau of Statistics)

            I would guess that a good part of the 52% calling themselves Christians are in fact, apathetics. Much like the US, Europe, etc.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and all that is happening all over the world ….. because God said it would happen ….. in scripture ….. SO WHAT ….. you are PROVING THE BIBLE CORRECT these days ……. THNX …. you make my job much easier ………

      • TSawesome

        Many Christians are gay. Nothing can stop God from making them.

        • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

          Many gays say they are Christian. The only thing I will say to you is that God knows the truth. I rely on God and His Word. What you say is what you say. What they say is what they say. What God;s Word says is the truth. You can not change God’s Truth. You can deny it and twist it. But you can not change it.

          • TSawesome

            Thank you for being respectful. I am a Christian and am a married lesbian. I believe that God created me just as he created you and that my marriage is blessed by God as I assume yours is as well.

            May we live together in peace as we all draw closer to Christ.

        • Amos Moses – He>i

          “Many Christians are gay.”

          contradiction in terms …. sorry ….

          • Nick Halflinger

            Do you mean that gay people not capable of believing in Jesus Christ?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            sure they are …. if they are a USED-TO-WAS ….. but as an I-AM-NOW …. no such thing …. God decides who is and who is not ….. we do not decide …. and NO MAN is capable of choosing God without God …… being a christian is not some intellectual assent to a few principles and mouthing words that you are ………. and if you think that is what it is ….. then you do not know what you are talking about …………

          • Nick Halflinger

            So if God alone decides if you are Christian, then belief in Jesus, going to church, or studying scripture are not required and are unimportant?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            the only way for us to come to belief in Christ is if the Father draws us to Him …… and until that happens ….. man has no ability to come to Christ in any real fashion ………. the rest of what you mention comes after that …………..

            John
            6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
            6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
            6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
            6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
            6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
            6:48 I am that bread of life.
            6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
            6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
            6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
            6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
            6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
            6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
            6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
            6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
            6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
            6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
            6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
            6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
            6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
            6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
            6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
            6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
            6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

          • Nick Halflinger

            “the only way for us to come to belief in Christ is if the Father draws us to Him”

            So, bottom line, I should just hang around the pool hall waiting for Him to call?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            So, the bottom line is ….. He will find you no matter where you are ….. IF you belong to Him …..

            He will not lose even one who belongs to Him ….. it is dependent on HIM and NOT on us …………. Sola Gratia …. Sola Fide ….. Sola Deo Gloria …….

          • Nick Halflinger

            Thanks! I’ve got to get back to hustling some marks. I am sure He has my number.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i know He does ….. that does not mean He is going to call …… but whatever ……….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            So according to you, a gay person can believe in Jesus Christ only if they become ex-gay. Which does not and cannot happen. So you’re condemning them all to hell.

          • TruthvLIes

            “they become ex-gay. Which does not and cannot happen”

            Huh? What fairy tale did you get that from? My brother is ex homosexual and has been for along time. He is happily married and has children. Are you telling me he is not allowed to be?

            When I told him what you said he fell down laughing. He doesn’t understand why he was duped into believing the lies of the rainbow warriors.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Your brother is living a lie. What he is doing will not last. I would bet my bottom dollar on it. Unless he has found a woman who is happy living a celibate life.

          • TruthvLIes

            Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha I am falling about on the floor with my brother laughing.

            So far it has lasted 28 years and will last another 28 at least, despite the fact that you cannot handle the truth which you are so desperate to deny.

            Tell me this. How does your wife produce two children if you are living a celibate life?

            I know you can’t handle the truth but the fact is he WAS LIVING A LIE until he gave it up for the truth.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Either your brother was never gay to begin with or he is living a lie now. It is as simple as that. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO “change”.

          • TruthvLIes

            When are you going to say something original instead of the denial claptrap that homosexuals are so fond of?

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            When are you going to stop spouting crap?

          • TruthvLIes

            Typical don’t bother me with the truth response.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            You have zero interest in truth. You like fairy stories which people tell you are truth.

          • TruthvLIes

            I have zero interest in lies that you claim are the truth.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            I can back up anything I say with a definitive source like a dictionary or a science text.

            And you can’t.

          • TruthvLIes

            As I said, I have zero interest in lies that you call the truth.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            What you have zero interest in is being proven to be definitively wrong.

          • TruthvLIes

            Why would I be interested in something that doesn’t happen??

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            You’ve got nothing. And everyone knows it.

          • TruthvLIes

            How would 7 billion people on the earth know that I have got nothing? Especially those 6.99 billion that have never met me and don’t even know that I exist.

            Just to put you out of your misery, I have a wonderful wife who I have been married to for 47 years. I have two wonderful children who I love dearly and I have 10 grandchildren who I think are so beautiful.

            How’s that for someone who has got nothing?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            psst …. here is a clue for you …. we are ALL CONDEMNED to HELL ……….. thats why we are here …… and the way OUT of HELL ….. is to listen to the truth of God and be in agreement with Him ….. and you do not want that for them or yourself …… so the shoe is on YOUR FOOT for that ……. and there is not thing one i can do to change it …. except tell you the truth ….. that you REJECT ………….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            And why do you believe such offensive nonsense?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            why do you NOT ….. because you are “offended” ……….. the scriptures … offend …… EVERYBODY …… and you reject them because you are not really MAN enough to hear the truth ………. you are a child ………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            I am offended by stupidity. I am offended by people threatening me to believe hateful crap which they want me to believe is the will of their God. I will speak against such evilness all the days of my life.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope …. you are offended by the truth …. because you do not know the truth ….. and when it is presented to you ….. you reject the truth …..

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            There is nothing offensive about the truth, especially when it’s proven to BE the truth. But you never do that, and your idea of TRUTH is at variance to everyone else’s.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            again ….. you have it BACKWARDS …. truth is not proven ….. it is the standard by which all else is measured …… there is no higher standard than the truth …… to say it has to be proven says that there is something higher …. and there is not ….. truth is either accepted or rejected …. and you reject it ………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            You aren’t even DEFINING truth here. Do you not see that? You keep saying what it is and isn’t but you provide NO definition. For something to be the truth, it needs to have a proof behind it.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            the truth need no defense or “proof” ….. it is the truth ……… and i HAVE defined the truth ….. IT IS CHRIST ……… and IT IS SCRIPTURE ……… do YOU not see that ………. it has been stated several times …..

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            The truth needs a definition in order for it to be a word, Amos. You’re not even trying now.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            how can i put this …… i am a knight and you are a knight … i have a sword …. we have met on the battle field …. now from your point of view …. you say … “i do not believe in your sword, put it down as I do not believe in it and you have to prove to me its worth” ……. now i can put my sword down and we can have an at length discussion on metallurgy, and the physics of crafting my sword, and the tactics of battle and such things …… and then you will say again ….. “i still do not believe in your sword, put it down as I do not believe in it and you have to prove to me its worth some more” ….. or we can just get to the point ….. and we skip the conversation ….. and i take out my sword …… and i cut you to pieces …..

            and then the argument is over ….. and you either believe in my sword ….. or you die …. and all you seem to want to do right now ….. is talk after you have been hacked to pieces …. the truth is the truth ….. my sword is the truth of scripture ….. and you have not said one thing to make me put it away …. and you have no argument i cannot counter ….. as i have a two-edged sword ……. and you have your mouth ……………. for the moment ……

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            That’s really cute, now all that needs to happen is for you to recognize that you have got a sword at all. You have a rubber chicken which you walk around pretending is the most powerful sword out there. Everyone laughs at your rubber chicken but your pride and arrogance prevents you from acknowledging what you know is true.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “ow all that needs to happen is for you to recognize that you have got a sword at all”

            i do recognize it …. and so do you … and that is why you want it put away …… because you know it will cut you ……….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            It’s such nonsense you believe. You threaten with it, and no one in his right mind would believe it to start with. There is nothing else to say to you. I pity you.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            well if your are in your “right mind” …. then why are you here ….. i am sure you can find others like you here and there …….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Well, there’s nobody here EXCEPT YOU who believes that truth is self-evident and requires no definition nor proof. Explain that one. We all have dictionaries and know how to use them. And we don’t use the Bible as a book of word definitions…given the number of translations it is subject to I can’t think of a less suitable book for that purpose.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “here EXCEPT YOU who believes that truth is self-evident ”

            Declaration of Independence ………..
            “We hold these truths to be SELF-EVIDENT, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

            “truths to be SELF-EVIDENT” ….. “endowed by their CREATOR”

            yep …. no one here but us CRAZY ZEALOTS in AMERICA ……………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            “(THESE) truths to be self-evident” is not the same as “truth is self-evident”. Specific truths are being addressed in the Declaration of Independence. You aren’t doing that. You’re just using the word truth on its own…..lame.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you said that truth was not self evident to anyone but me ….. that is YOUR category error …. your problem …. and the reason it is not self-evident to you ….. is that you have a blindness to it ….. and only Christ can cure that ….. all we can do is SHOW you the truth …. PRESENT IT to you …… there is nothing to defend ….. if you do not accept it … again …. YOUR PROBLEM …… and above our pay grade …. so i have no idea what it is you think you are accomplishing here ………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            You are the only Christian here I see urging people not to use their dictionaries and telling people God chooses them rather than them choosing their religion. “This is a Christian board,” you’re so fond of saying, yet nothing you say could be less Christian in nature.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            people choose their religion all the time ….. it means nothing to God … God chooses His …. and no one else ….. SCRIPTURE …………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Scripture diesNOT state that God chooses His followers.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            it surely does ……… and you are ignorant of it ………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            It does NOT.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
            6:44 NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, EXCEPT the Father which hath sent me DRAW HIM: and I will raise him up at the last day.
            6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
            6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
            6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
            6:48 I am that bread of life.
            6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
            6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
            6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
            6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
            6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
            6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
            6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
            6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
            6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
            6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
            6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
            6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
            6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
            6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
            6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
            6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
            6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, THAT NO MAN CAN COME UNTO ME, EXCEPT it were GIVEN unto him of my Father.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            That isn’t what that passage means, Amos.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
            8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
            8:30 Moreover whom he did PREDESTINATE, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            1:4 According as HE HATH CHOSEN US in him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
            1:5 Having PREDESTINATED us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, ACCORDING TO THE GOOD PLEASURE OF HIS WILL, (not our will)
            1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
            1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
            1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
            1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
            1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
            1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
            1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Nobody would be stupid enough to believe a word of what you said, apart from the crazed zealot who upvotes everything you say.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            so if i am crazy ….. then that makes you crazy for holding a conversation with one …. does not say a whole lot about you ……

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            I just thought you might like to know.

          • TruthvLIes

            You are offended by anything that rubbishes your pie in the sky fairy stories.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            That is your domain, not mine. Science is not fairy stories.

          • TruthvLIes

            Your version of it is.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            There are no versions. It is what it is and can be proven as such.

          • TruthvLIes

            Like they proved that the Piltdown Man was the missing link and pronounced it was for 50 years and then said oops sorry we made a mistake despite all our brains and learning and science and proof. it was nothing more than the skull of a pig.

          • hiernonymous

            You believe one must be angry to be Christian? Or sinless?

            Sounds like someone is falling prey to some of the seven deadlies….

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            there is no anger there …. you are reading what you want … not what it there ….. what is there is TRUTH …… why does the TRUTH make you angry ……..

          • hiernonymous

            You indcated that a Christian could not be gay.

            I wasn’t sure if you were referring to an emotional state or sexual orientation, so I asked you which condition prevented one from being a Christian.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            again …. contradiction in terms ….. there are no ACTIVE MURDERER christians ….. there are no ACTIVE THIEF christians …… there are no ACTIVE ADULTERER christians …… there is no such thing as a (fill in your sin here) christian …… there are no “sin modifier””hyphenated” christian ……… that does not mean christians are sinless …… it means that we agree with God WHAT SIN IS …… and that WE ARE SINNERS …….. and that we leave sin behind to the best of our ability as we agree with God ….. and saying you are a “homosexual christian” ….. is saying i can keep my sin and be somehow in agreement with God ……

            SORRY ….. that option is not on the table ….. we do not have the option of saying i agree with God “EXCEPT” ….. and have that be “okay” ………

          • hiernonymous

            But you have admitted that you are a sinner. It would seem, glancing through your posts, that you are guilty of some ongoing sins, unless you have become the first person to free yourself of that state?

            “….there are no ACTIVE MURDERER christians ….. there are no ACTIVE THIEF christians …… there are no ACTIVE ADULTERER christians …”

            On the contrary, there are nothing but. There are no Christians who have successfully freed themselves of sin and have thus earned salvation. There are Christians who admit that they are sinners, and ask for forgiveness. In the Catholic Church, the Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation is not a one-shot deal; it’s a recurring sacrament. It’d be interesting to see how many Christians have never confessed a particular sin more than once.

            If you are a sinner, and you continue to repeat your sins, how are you more deserving of the appelation “Christian” than one whose sins you do not share? You imply that it is because you don’t try to paint your sins as being anything other than sins, but you continue to commit them, so how is that different or better?

            It would seem to be an altogether more defensible position to say that you believe homosexuality is a sin, and to leave it to the Almighty to decide whether there are any “gay Christians” or not.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            saying you are an active sinner as part of your description of being a christian is a contradiction in terms …… not wanting to LEAVE that sin makes you NOT a christian ….. saying you are a lesbian WITH A “PARTNER” ….. and not wanting to leave that “PARTNER” ….. makes it a contradiction in terms ………. and NOT in agreement with God …….. sorry …. we you do not get to “agree but not agree with this bit right here” …. because i do not want to ……….. we either agree …. or … WE DO NOT ……….. agreement with God is not an option … it is an ULTIMATUM ………….

          • hiernonymous

            I suppose the question I have is – if the issue of agreement is between the individual and God, how did you get elected to decide the status of that relationship?

            “… saying you are a lesbian WITH A “PARTNER” ….. and not wanting to leave that “PARTNER” ….. makes it a contradiction in terms …..”

            Does it really? Or is it being sexually active with that partner that makes it a sin?

            We know that masturbation is quite widespread an repeated; Coon & Mitterer found that
            “[a]pproximately 70 percent of married women and men masturbate at least occasionally.”

            As these studies are conducted in overwhelmingly Christian countries, it’s reasonable to infer that the findings apply to the Christian populations of those countries. This suggests that, by your formulation, some 70% of Christians – aren’t!

            Then, of course, there are all of the divorced Christians. If they have not taken their spouses back, then they are not in agreement with God – so, sorry, no divorced Christians, either.

            Jesus told us to “love thy neighbor as thyself.” Now, we all get a little irritable now and then, and are less than polite to one another, especially online. But if you haven’t gone back and apologized to the people you snarked at, and if you continue to be a lil’ snarky, well, you are not in agreement with God, and are not a Christian. So we’ve lost all the gay Christians, the divorced Christians, the more-than-one-time masturbatory Christians, the snarky Christians.

            It’s starting to look like a pretty exclusive club. Somehow, I don’t think that’s what He had in mind. So, again, perhaps you’d be better off that you think of X as a sin, according to your own limited understanding of scripture, and leave the decisions on who is and is not a Christian to, say, someone who actually knows what is in the hearts of those individuals?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “how did you get elected to decide the status of that relationship”

            “I” did not ….. GOD DID ….. very simple …. why? why did He do that ….. without my permission …… ¯_(ツ)_/¯ ……

            “is it being sexually active with that partner”

            it is outside of what God has ordained and declared marriage to be …… and so it is not in agreement with God ………..

          • hiernonymous

            “…it is outside of what God has ordained ”

            What is the “it” in this sentence? Please be specific.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            homosexuality and anything connected to it ……… including homomarriage ………..

          • hiernonymous

            Okay, so let’s take a look at that. There are several different behaviors you’re lumping together. Let’s limit it to these:
            1) Sexual activity between two members of the same sex.
            2) Marriage between two members of the same sex.
            3) Love between two members of the same sex.
            4) Cohabitation betweeen two members of the same sex.

            What is the Biblical basis of your objection to the last two?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ok … FIRST …. not “MY” objection …. it is GODS objection …… but i am in agreement with Him ….. SECOND …. it is not one or two …. it is ALL …… especially when you do not want to define “cohabitation” …… what do YOU mean by that …….. and again ….. THIRD ….. you want to throw the word “love” around as if it has one meaning ….. and you want to play word games with it …… agape, philios, storge, eros …… among others ….. YOU are the one ” lumping together” …………….

          • hiernonymous

            “… especially when you do not want to define “cohabitation””

            How’d you infer that I “do not want to define” it? The term is pretty clear, and its contrast with the other three categories makes it even more so, but if you still find it ambiguous or confusing, all you have to do is ask. It’s not like I’m going to tell you that there were 8 different words for “cohabitation” and I insist that you figure out which one I mean.

            Here’s the definition I’m using: “a :to live together or in company”

            I’m specifically not using it to mean “having sexual relations,” as that’s already addressed above.

            Not sure why you asserted I didn’t want to address that.

            “THIRD ….. you want to throw the word “love” around as if it has one meaning ….. and you want to play word games with it …… agape, philios, storge, eros …… among others .”

            Well, no. Since the verse in question only used agape, and the English translation of “love” in that context is perfectly clear and understandable, why would you infer that I’m throwing in eros? Where did I write “you shall boff your neighbor as yourself?” And how in the world could you even know what the terms you’re using mean and suggest “storge” for a form of love directed at “your neighbor?” You’re simply trying to be evasive. Remember that “false witness” commandment!

            I’ll reissue my invitation – what was it, exactly, that I wrote about the meaning or implication of that commandment that is inconsistent with the original Greek?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “How’d you infer that I “do not want to define” it?”

            ummmm …. because you did not ………. easy ….

          • hiernonymous

            That’s not honest.
            Should I infer that you don’t want to define “easy” – because you didn’t?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i do not do inference … it leads to deception and misunderstanding ….. but that does seem to be what you are going for …………

          • hiernonymous

            H: “How’d you infer that I “do not want to define it?”
            A: “ummmm …. because you did not ………. easy ….”
            A, one post later: “i do not do inference …”

            Come again?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … YOUR word was inference …. i did not have to INFER a thing …. YOU did not define it ………….

          • hiernonymous

            Two observations:
            1. Of course you had to infer something. The only observable fact in play is that I did not offer a definition of a word on its first use in the conversation. You added an element not in evidence – that I was unwilling to do so. That’s an inference. If you need to look up the word to make sure you understand why this is, I can wait.
            2. I asked you how you drew your inference, and you responded “because you did not.” If I ask you why you did X, and you respond “because you did not do Y,” then it’s unsupportable to return later and say “wait, I never did X.” Your response says that you did.

            And, of course, my response was a lesson to you in the strength – or lack thereof – of your reference. The simple fact that one does not do something is not evidence of one’s unwillingness or unreadiness to do that thing, unless there were a compelling reason that it should have already happened. As I already noted, the word has pretty straightforward definitions, and the context I employed was sufficient for a reasonably intelligent and alert native speaker of English to understand which meaning was in use. And, of course, as soon as you expressed uncertainty, I supplied that definition.

            Applying your own logic, the fact that you didn’t define “easy” implied that you were unwilling to define “easy.” That’s absurd, of course – and that’s the point.

            At this point, implying that I was unwilling to do so would be bearing false witness. Remember, you get angry at sins, so you don’t want to do that. Deflecting in an online argument isn’t carte blanche to ignore those commandments.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i do not have to “infer” anything to see what you plainly did not include …..

          • hiernonymous

            But you didn’t limit your claim to “you plainly did not include.”

            You extended your claim to “especially when you do not want to define….”

            It’s not common practice to define all of the words used in a post here. Drawing the conclusion that not doing so displays some sort of unwillingness is quite plainly an inference.

            I infer from your reflexive denial that you do not understand what an inference is. You seem to think it something pejorative. To infer is simply to draw a conclusion, which you have plainly done.

            infer. transitive verb
            1 :to derive as a conclusion from facts or premises
            we see smoke and infer fire —L. A. White
            — compare imply
            2 :guess, surmise

  • BuckeyePhysicist

    Heterophobia wins again.

    • Lexical Cannibal

      🎶You’re so vain, you think my friend’s gay marriage is about you.🎶

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        ARMY LIFTING BAN ON BIPOLAR, SELF-MUTILATING RECRUITS ‘A RED FLAG’
        ‘This was a decision made by people from the Obama admin, not Trump’

        direct result of homomarriage ………..

        and the insanity continues ….. it has become airborne …… like a plague …… and all those who said “how does “gay marriage” affect you in any way” ….. THIS IS THE INSANITY that we are now embracing ……. THIS is what becomes of such FOOLISHNESS as homomarriage ……… THIS is what comes from the embrace of DEPRAVITY …………

        • Tangent002 ✓

          The Army’s recruiting woes are because no-one wants to sign up for a series of imperialistic wars. It has nothing at all to do with same-sex marriage.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            sure ….. whatever you need to tell yourself ………

          • Tangent002 ✓

            Do you think there is a ‘shortage’ of recruits because heterosexuals have stopped breeding due to same-sex marriage?

        • Lexical Cannibal

          You are…….a couple……of planks away from……….bridging the acceptance of equal marriage…………….With the Army’s apparently…..un…re…lated………revision of its mental…..health policy. A revision that I’m both generally against and fail to see as exclusively causal and also how do you type like that? It’s even more annoying to write than it is to read, and I only did it the one time for yucks. Is this some internet version of self-mortification? I never did get that about you.

          • Trilemma

            Amos likes to use free verse poetry.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Haiku ………. Hi ku you too ……

      • mr goody two shoes

        No it about not wanting you or your friend in hell. Even if you don’t believe in such a place for now or that your both are headed that way.

        • Lexical Cannibal

          Cosmic threat noted. I’ll let my gods know that Yaweh still won’t play well with others.

        • ThroatwobblerMangrove

          Where in your Bible does it say that? I don’t see it in mine. Maybe your interpretation is faulty, or over the top, or possibly just meaning what you want it to mean.

      • TruthvLIes

        no one is complaining about happy people getting married. The issue is whether homosexuals should trash marriage as we know it.

        • Lexical Cannibal

          By….getting happily married?

          • TruthvLIes

            Homosexuals…happily married? What is your next joke.

            Their average relationship is two years. Divorce lawyers are going to have a field day.

            73% of homosexuals have sex on the side weekly with another homosexual. Why if they are happily married? Don’t think so. It is all pie in the sky.

          • Lexical Cannibal

            Right, so first of all, gonna slap a big ol’ [citation needed] on that.

            Secondly, if those numbers are even accurate, they’d be pretty comparable to straight people. A 1991 study by Shere Hite found that 70% of married women had affairs, with a follow-up study two years later putting that number at 72% for men. Various sources put the average length of a relationship at ~2-4 years, with a 2017 study by Nationwide putting it at 4.2 years, though that was a study focusing specifically on English people in their 20’s. It’s worth noting that either of these statistics are really hard to nail down due to the cloudy nature of the subject matter (infidelity especially!), to say nothing of what any halfway decent sociologist could do to you for comparing a minority population to the majority without adjusting for factors of that interaction.

          • TruthvLIes

            Fairy stories.

          • Lexical Cannibal

            So the numbers you pulled from your posterior sphincter are the real facts and the numbers I gave actual citation for are fairy stories? What’s next, “heads I win, tails you lose?”

          • TruthvLIes

            Something like that as the homosexual cause is based on lies full stop.

          • Lexical Cannibal

            Ah, so you’re one of those “if I’m wrong, then the data’s wrong” types, got it. Well, have a nice life, I guess!

          • TruthvLIes

            As asinine as you can get.

    • Tangent002 ✓

      How is legal same-sex marriage ‘against’ heterosexuality?

      • Kevin Canuckster

        Try being a heterosexual wedding photographer or wedding cake baker!

        • Tangent002 ✓

          What does sexual preference have to do with either of those professions?

        • TSawesome

          If you operate a *public* business, you have to serve all of the public equally. That’s just the law.

          If they feel that they must discriminate, they can become a private, members-only, *non-public* serving business by turning in their business license and never selling to the public.

          • Lark.62

            Yes. And a photographer or baker who happens to be an atheist must treat christians like any other customer. Same product choices, same pricing, same quality of service. If a christian wants a cake to celebrate a marriage or a baptism or a first communion, the baker would bake a cake as requested, and deliver it to a church if that service is provided to others.

            The only difference is that christians are protected everywhere in the country while in most places gays are not protected from discrimination.

          • TSawesome

            Exactly. Public business? Then we serve the public, which is everyone… even people we don’t like, agree with or who are significantly different than ourselves.

          • ppp777

            Again you have an answer , in truth you should be put to death , under the law of course .

          • TruthvLIes

            No you don’t. You serve your customers and you decide who they should be.

          • TruthvLIes

            Wrong. The owner of a business regardless of what his religion is, can refuse to sell anything to anyone.

            No one discriminates against happy people and very few people discriminate against homosexuals. That is a beat up by militant homosexuals to enable them to claim victim status.

          • Lark.62

            Are you seriously that uninformed? Really? Did you just move to the US from Siberia or something?

            The Civil Rights Act of 1964 has been around for over 50 years. You might want to catch up.

            Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964:

            All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, and privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.

            Exception – “private clubs” can discriminate.

            Note – “A place of public accommodation” is very very broad. If the business “engages in commerce” and any person from another state might purchase or use the product or service, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 applies to them.

            The owner of a business cannot refuse to sell a product or service to a person because they a Christian. Christians have been fully protected from religion based discrimination for over 50 years and you never noticed? How special is that?

          • TruthvLIes

            In my country there is no Civil Rights Act.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            What country is that? There might not be a Civil Rights Act, but in a lot of places there is at least some sort of anti discrimination law in effect.

          • TruthvLIes

            If you had looked at the title of this article you would have seen it referred to Australia and that is what the conversation is about.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Yes, I know it’s about what’s going on in Australia, I just didn’t know if that was where you are from. I’ve looked into it a little bit, and there are anti-discrimination laws in Australia. For one example, there’s the Racial Discrimination Act of 1975, which applies to public businesses (much like the US Civil Rights Act). So, your statement elsewhere that a business owner can refuse to sell to anyone is not true in Australia either.

          • TruthvLIes

            So you don’t live in Australia yet you know more about Australian Law than I do even though I have taught commercial law.

            Commercial law which is not affected by discrimination law gives the seller the right to sell anything he want to a buyer and it gives him the right to refuse to sell anything to a buyer.

            A retailer can put a product in his window at a certain price and it is an offer to sell the product but he doesn’t have to if he doesn’t want to.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Australia’s Racial Discrimination Act of 1975:

            “13. It is unlawful for a person who supplies goods or services to the public or to any section of the public: (a) to refuse or fail on demand to supply those goods or services to another person; or (b) to refuse or fail on demand to supply those goods or services to another person except on less favourable terms or conditions than those upon or subject to which he or she would otherwise supply those goods or services; by reason of the race, colour or national or ethnic origin of that other person or of any relative or associate of that other person.”

            I admit I am no expert on Australian law, but that seems pretty clear to me. Are you saying that due to commercial law, that whole thing basically has no effect, means nothing? Can a business in Australia refuse to sell goods to one race (because they are of that race) and sell the same exact thing to another? You said a few times that Australia has no Civil Rights Act, but that looks very similar to it.

          • ppp777

            You children of Belial always have an answer for everything however perverse the situation

          • TruthvLIes

            Having taught consumer law, no one has to sell anything to anyone. Any item is offered for sale, but the seller has the right to decide who buys.

            I used to manage a Union Sports Shop and if a person came in who was not a union member I could refuse to serve him.

          • Nick Halflinger

            True, however, if he was a Christian, then the Civil Rights Act of 1964 means you had to serve him. You might determine some ground on which to refuse service, but discrimination based solely on those protected classes is against the law.

          • TruthvLIes

            We don”t have a Civil Rights Act.

        • james blue

          The issue there is big government anti discrimination and public accommodation laws–the same laws that make it illegal to refuse goods and services to us— not gay marriage.

          • TruthvLIes

            Who is US?

        • TheKingOfRhye

          A lot of heterosexual photographers and bakers have no problem serving same-sex couples.

  • Trilemma

    The issue is whether or not same sex marriage should be legal and not whether or not it’s moral. Legally, there’s no reason same sex marriage should be illegal. Those who believe same sex marriage is immoral should convince others to change their behavior through teaching and not try to change people’s behavior by force of law. The purpose of the law is to protect rights; not to impose morality.

  • Lexical Cannibal

    I find a special kind of schadenfreude in the idea that the same general American demographic mourning the decline of sexual morality is the same group that’s trying to ignore the mounting evidence of Roy Moore’s pedophilia, while trying to forget what their president said about his ability to commit sexual assault.

    If your version of sexual morality means that consenting gay couples can’t get married, but skeevy old men get off scott free, then ashes to ashes, I’ll send flowers.

    • Kevin Canuckster

      Two wrongs don’t make a right.

      • Nick Halflinger

        Then, why as Lexical stated, are so many evangelicals not speaking-out against both Moore and Trump?

        • This style 10/6

          Over on Disqus at the Faith and Religion channel one of the most rabid evangelicals in defending Moore.

          Go figure.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            That’s Lady Checkmate’s haven of hate. I’d avoid her at all costs if I were you, she’s bad juju. In fact I’m amazed you are there are all, hasn’t she banned you? Willing to be she will.

          • This style 10/6

            Oh, I was banned long ago. Sometimes her headline intrigues me and I take a look.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            She is a major topic of discussion at Fundies Say the Darndest Things (fstdt dot com).

          • This style 10/6

            I haven’t looked at t hat for a long while. She is a natural!

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            She does show up here, but only to upvote the worst and most bigoted comments. She doesn’t venture out of the areas she can completely control too often.

      • Lexical Cannibal

        See, that only works if you think both of these things are wrong. From my end, it looks a lot like a bunch of half-baked moralists picking fights with one hand and frantically trying to hush up their own wrongdoing with the other. It’s more like the least-generous version of “do as I say, not as I do,” from this side.

    • mr goody two shoes

      Is that why the cigar welding Clinton the molester of young women interns was elected not once but twice by your side?

      • TSawesome

        Why don’t you answer the allegations against DT vs. always deflecting to Clinton?

      • Lexical Cannibal

        Actually…
        This isn’t the only time. Roy Moore was banned from an Alabama mall once for, wait for it, making advances towards teenagers. A woman has produced his signature on her yearbook from a time when he would have been an adult, while she was a teen. Times and places are being corroborated, there is actually a somewhat impressively credible pile of evidence, considering it’s not legally actionable.

        And, look, if you want to throw mud, maybe let’s try to remember that the sitting Republican President once bragged about his ability to sexually assault women, using vulgarity that would get me banned from this site, and when confronted by it, couldn’t even bring himself to apoligize for it, or admit that what he said was wrong. This is not exactly a high moral position to be working from.

  • Mark0H

    They can vote to affirm that 2 + 2 = 5,
    but it still isn’t.

    Idiots.

  • Allan Trenholme

    Wow, for a Christian site this is sure a popular place for so many non-Christians and their comments. smh

    • TimothyJ

      Yep it sure is. I think non-Christians go out of their way to argue and try to instill doubt and anger in Christians.

    • mikegillespie

      Haters gotta hate.

    • Maxwell Edison

      That’s because the mod tolerates it.

      • Allan Trenholme

        On the positive side… its our opportunity to pray for God to bring them into His Kingdom. If they want to hang out here then we can pray for them… the more the merrier, now thats exciting!

        • ThroatwobblerMangrove

          I personally look forward to the day when the churches do a little housecleaning and toss out long-held, ancient, irrelevant bigotries.

          • Allan Trenholme

            Thank you for your input ThroatwobblerMangrove… you are now on my prayer list. God bless!

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Not necessary. Pray instead for those you make no effort to understand.

          • Truth first

            He may just understand exactly where you’re at, T.
            Are you a Christian or just trolling?

          • Truth first

            How do you mean that, T? Do you want Churches to clean up their act and toss out everything that is not Biblical, like covert or overt acceptance of GLBTI advocacy? Or would you say that this topic is NOT important?

    • ThroatwobblerMangrove

      I wouldn’t say that. You shouldn’t assume all Christians oppose same sex marriage.

      • ppp777

        There is no such thing , it is an oxymoron .

        • ThroatwobblerMangrove

          Well, it’s the law now and happens whether you like it or not. Enjoy your oxymoron.

      • Eldrida Urika

        Has anyone here realized that the marriages between two of the same gender is not the sin? If they were not already sinners for their sexual activities, the question of marriage is mute? So since we have to expect sinners to sin, and one sin is not greater than another, I do not think getting married will change their life into a worse sin. So why do we fuss about this? We expect them to be punished no matter if they get married or not. It is the actions of non believers and we don’t need to get upset about this since their first sin has already forged their fate. Why get so worked up about a sinner sinning? They do not believe so why not do what Jesus did and leave them to their fate and leave them alone to “wallow” in their sin?

        • Firstly, what we need to be clear about is that there’s no such thing as marriage between two persons of the same sex. So-called “gay marriage” is an invention from the mind of man, and represents utter confusion, in stark contrast to the order of the God-given institution of marriage between one man and one woman. This invention is essentially rebellion against God, and despising His order, which is sin.

          You point out, quite rightly, that entering into this invented institution is just a continuation of a sinful trajectory. And you ask the question, why do we fuss? The answer is that many Christians are concerned that, once this fabrication becomes law, that Christian ministers and celebrants will be compelled to condone it. If they aren’t compelled to do so, many still fear that the corrupting influence of this fresh departure from the natural order by men in general will get into the Church subtly, and the result will be the same without compulsion. Sadly, Christendom is full of formal and rigid structures purporting to be churches, and because of their formalism, rigidity, and legal status in the law of the land, they’re vulnerable to the intrusion of secular ideas of the worst kind.

          • Eldrida Urika

            You know the marriage is real, in their eyes, and in ours it is not blessed by God.

            Why do you think that just because we believe in marriage between a man and a woman that non-believers Must believe in it too when they don’t believe in God?
            I don’t understand how denying them the equal right to marry without our approval, or God’s, is going to change anything at all.

            Christians should not expect non-believers to follow our beliefs. They didn’t for God either in the OT.

            SSM is wrong to us, but trying to force our belief on others is not in the bible at all. Jesus wants people to come to him of their own free will, not by trying to force them to believe.
            We have to realize that we are special to God, not the world. We have no right to deny people things because of our beliefs. Our beliefs are our beliefs not theirs so why do you expect them to even bother with our beliefs?
            We should worry about the ones that we can save not keep after the gays etc when it’s been determined that everyone else in the world is not opposed to it.
            It’s a fact and nothing we do will make the whole world change their minds about it.

            So get beyond it and look to save others who might have a chance to be saved instead of wasting time on people who have the law behind them much to our regret.

            Jesus did not tell us to rebuke non-believers about their sin. Not once. So by rebuking them they are going against God’s Word that tells us to tell them about salvation and .let them choose. Then leave the people who choose not to believe alone!

            I do not go against God’s Word in even a small way because I base my words on God’s Word alone.
            I obey what he tells us in His Word as well as what the Holy Spirit guides me to. I gave my life to God and that is not going to change just because some people want to believe that I am not following God’s Word.
            It will not make any difference at this point. The world has cast it’s vote without regard to our beliefs. Saying it isn’t a true marriage is only right to us, not them. Repeating it over and over is not going to make it any more right either.

            Look and find me a scripture that clearly states that we are supposed to interfere with sinners lives. I’ll wait here

          • TruthvLIes

            No one has denied them the equal right to marry without our approval.

            In 1998, the law of the lad was changed by a CONSERVATIVE government to give homosexuals all the rights non homosexuals had. That included the right to marry but it did not use the word marry it was known as a civil union which got the same recognition as a defacto relationship.

            The fact that they want to have it called marriage shows how bloody minded they are. They cannot fulfil the requirements of the Bill before parliament so it is a complete farce.

            No, the fact is they’re not interested in legalised same sex marriage other than as a vehicle to introduce more of their diabolical agenda to destroy society as we know it and people who say otherwise have been deceived by Satan.

          • Apologies, Eldrida, for my delay in replying to you. Domestic arrangements and work have been keeping me busy and away from the keyboard.

            I agree with your position regarding unbelievers and the course of the world – I obviously didn’t make that clear in my previous remarks. I am not advocating that Christians should have united to prevent the world taking the course it has – it will go its own way, and we must go ours. I simply pointed out that some Christians are concerned about the legal position of churches which may be forced to carry out these acts of union in which they do not believe. There is also the fear that the establishment of these novelties in the world – institutions which have never existed in this formal way in the history of man – will result in them creeping into churches. This is why some Christians take it upon themselves to exercise their democratic rights by opposing “same-sex marriage”. I am not one of those Christians. I’ve never participated in politics, and I never will, as a matter of principle. I don’t see that political involvement can help the cause of the true Church at all, and it frequently harms the cause which it’s supposed to defend. It’s better to spread these things before the Lord in prayer, as Hezekiah spread the letter of Sennacherib before the Lord (Isaiah 37 v 14). We get help that way, when there’s no human help in the world that could make any difference.

        • Truth first

          I think Grant has got a point there, Eldrida.

          Main problem is that an utterly ungodly, rebellious institution has been created by man under the same banner under which God’s union between one man and a woman goes.

          And yes, there will be Churches who either reject it and will get punished for it by law, or will accept it and in doing so endorse one of the biggest abominations of our time. Ever. God will punish those in churches who advocate for the adulteration of God’s creation, without any doubt.

          This topic is important enough to split a church!
          We have seen this with African Anglican churches opposed to the emancipation and justification of gays in the Church, who have split from the greater body. And rightfully so! Unity without truth is of no value whatsoever!

          Watch this space: after the acceptance of homosexuality what is next will be the legalisation of pedophilia.

          • Eldrida Urika

            I always find it sad that grown adults can’t get long with each other at all even just to work out the compromise .
            Adults don’t seem to have learned to share these day. They have little tolerance for other views and reject all suggestions of how to get along with small changes on each side.

            This world is so selfish there is no place for Christians to hang around unless it is church.
            We were told to give to the world what is the world’s, and to God the things of God.
            The problem is we still have to work in their world, and we have to go into their world to teach Salvation. We need to be strong in our Faith and resist their ways but still be compassionate and kind so they will listen. I think it matters how it is approached, whether your personal attitude is engaging or attractively kind. Even people who want to resist the bible, can be changed when they are approached without condemnation, or anger and when they hear the strong desire in our voice, or behavior It is the thing that makes them think about the good and the bad in their lives, and considers whether they want to or not. Their free will gives them the choice and it might take a bit of time but we must hope that they will be moved to change into a regenerated person.
            If we are not headed for the end days, we are still set to be dealing with trials and tribulations. These days are not going to be anything like the days are now and they will be headed towards a time of the worst times before it ends. Jesus will come for us, so we can trust him and have faith that he will not betray our trust. our Faith will be the last test i think. That is why Jesus emphasized staying Faithful will be hard but the righteous will stand firm or something like that.

          • Truth first

            I always find it sad that grown adults can’t get long with each other at all even just to work out the compromise .
            Adults don’t seem to have learned to share these day. They have little tolerance for other views and reject all suggestions of how to get along with small changes on each side.

            You are totally correct in this if you apply it to the non-essentials of our lives, Eldrida. If we can find some common cause on topics that do not challenge the essence of the Bible, we must live in harmony with those people around us, and look for compromises if these can improve our relationships with them.

            However, homosexuality goes to the core of who we are and how God created us. It is one of the non-negotiables of our faith and doctrine. As Christians we want to obey Jesus Christ who unequivocally rejects gay and lesbian lifestyles. We declare God to be inconsequential or, worse, to be a liar, if we even give the slightest kind of endorsement to homosexual unions. They can not be called marriages, as God made clear what he meant marriage to be. It is only when we redefine LOVE and redefine MARRIAGE in terminology that is unbiblical that we can endorse “same sex marriages”. As Christian we HAVE TO warn the world about the sustained sinful state in which gays and lesbians live, and tell them that they forfeit afterlife with God if they sustain these relationships without repentance of it.

            We can say all of this in a loving way, but cannot deviate from that message, even if it were to hurt the hearers.

          • Eldrida Urika

            No I do not endorse the sin of homosexuality as it is a sin according to God.
            But I will fight for anyone’s equal rights as that is not against the bible, as a matter of a fact equality is one of the lessons that Jesus taught when they had all of a town give all their money to the apostles to divide it up between all in the town so they would be starting off on equal grounds as everyone had the same things to help them in their lives.
            Equal rights is not against Jesus or the bible. I stand behind anyone who is being told they do not have the same right as everyone else. Blacks, immigrants, everyone is to be given equal rights and someone’s sin does not take that right away.
            The redefinition of marriage is about them, not us. Our definition will never change regardless of how others look at it, but to say that a sin is a reason to deny their rights is against Jesus’ Word.
            We can warn the world all we can but it is not likely to make a change at this stage as it is all been made into laws everywhere.
            I talk to atheists about salvation and they never seem to hate me for it. I don’t believe that not believing is a reason because Jesus told us to love all sinners too.
            If we had a chance to change this from happening, we should have grabbed it with both hands and spread the love and the gospel before it could happen and not only that but it would have had to have been before as the World is trying to persecute Christians that showed such hate for people.
            Christianity has earned a bad reputation by the way they display so much hate towards others who are different. Considering we are supposed to be peculiar people and not of this world, we are not supposed to show hate for people and that is what the Christians who try to tell the sinners is showing for them.
            If God wanted me to hate anyone I would not follow him but he IS LOVE and there is no hate in him. I refuse to act as if I hate someone for their sin. I may not agree with what others do but I was not taught by Jesus to be in any way hurtful to people who need Him in their lives.
            The fact that homosexuals would not be getting married unless they had committed their first sin is like saying it is 2 sins for one! Sorry, being married in a SSM is not a sin that can make the first sin any worse or better than it is. So complaining and trying to stop them from marrying is basically punishing them for their sin before Judgement Day when the Lord will be the judge of all. Including any Christians that do not follow his word in their lives. He’s not going to ignore the Christians who do not follow his commands so they will have to justify their actions to God.
            The only ones who will be saved must be living a life that reflects Jesus and follows his every command. Anyone that deviates from his commands will be in question when it comes to salvation. Doing only some of his commands will not work as he told us to Do His Commands. Punishment of sin is God’s Authority not ours. By refusing to allow them the equal right to marriage you are punishing them for the sin. Not what Jesus wants at all . Our behavior is to be outstanding and being cruel enough to ignore the human right of being married is wrong. I believe that the sin of their lifestyle is against God’s Word but the marriage is a marriage of unbelievers not people who live by God’s Word. Why should they be excluded from that life issue because of a sin that some do not even look at as a sin as they do not believe?
            Jesus told us to leave sinners to the punishment and not to bother them about their sins beyond telling them about salvation by repentance. He did not tell us to make their lives hard, or that we should dismiss people at all for their sin. So standing in the way of an non-believer who wants to be married is against what Jesus said.
            I’ve mentioned before that because of the way Christians behave towards these people is why the world is getting tired of hearing our beliefs. Told with love and compassion it should not make anyone feel bad until they believe and understand about sin, and that is their own feeling of sorrow about those sin, not us making them feel bad.
            I don’t understand why so many Christians see sin as the most important thing to bug nonbelievers about when they do not believe in it?
            Jesus’ message was to love and love and love, not hate, hate , hate and treat others who sin in a way to be cruel or nasty. He never said to deny them anything that we are allowed to have in our lives. not once. He never told us that we have to force others to agree with our beliefs. How is it right to stop someone from getting married even if it is against OUR belief when it is not THEIR belief.
            WE are supposed to rebuke brethren about the sins we see them do, He said nothing about rebuking non believers about their sin.
            He never meant for us to do anything with sinners but show love and compassion and empathy because we are sinners too and we too have times when it is not easy to overcome our sins.
            I follow Jesus very closely and know his word very well, so that is why I tell you this. It is according to Jesus’ Word that says to long-suffer the non-believers just like God long-suffers our times of sinning.
            God does not agree with the non-believers and they should be told that, but we should not be denying anything based on a sin, otherwise we would also be denied things based on our sin.

          • TruthvLIes

            Sorry Eldrida but you have hit the mark with some of your comments and missed it with others.

            You said “as a matter of a fact equality is one of the lessons that Jesus taught when they had all of a town give all their money to the apostles to divide it up between all in the town so they would be starting off on equal grounds as everyone had the same things to help them in their lives.”

            The only equality that came from Jesus lips was that everyone has the right to be a son of God. Many of his comments showed he was against equality otherwise.

            A classic example is his words that except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. That is total inequality. Born again and you will see the Kingdom of God. Not born again and you won’t see the Kingdom of God.

            There was no wishy washy all of you will see the Kingdom of God whether you are born again or not. There are many more cases of inequality but that will do as an example.

            And I don’t see anywhere in scripture where a whole town gave money to the apostles to be divided amongst them equally.

          • Eldrida Urika

            NO? then why did they say that is why they were doing it in the scriptures? It was the scriptures that told me that they were doing it to have everyone start off in the same place. with equal money and everything else as equal? No, that was to show that everyone is equal in the eyes of God. No one is a better person than another. God loves everyone equally even sinners. That’s in the scriptures too.

            It is the story where one couple held back part of the money from the sale of a possession and the man, then the woman were dead for lying to the Lord. It is told in Acts 5.

            I would like some of the cases of inequality of persons shown in the bible of non-believers against believers of things that are about life, not about sin. He would not say one person is better or more important than another regardless of their sin. God isn’t a respecter of persons, he cares not if you are rich or poor, a believer or not, he loves every single one of us and wants ALL TO COME TO REPENTANCE and he came to save the World not just a few favorites of his, because he has no favorites according to the scriptures.

            That is not inequality to say not all will see the kingdom of God, it is a fact to warn the believers, not the nonbelievers. He does not include non-believers in the warnings he gives to us about our salvation. He knows they do not believe and won’t understand what he is meaning by his words. The bible is a guide for believers to go by, and a help to new believers to know what it is that they must do to have salvation. It’s not written to tell nonbelievers that they can’t do things because we don’t. It’s only about what we are not supposed to do. Anyone who does not believe will not have salvation and that is their choice and Jesus makes that very clear that it is to be left until the punishment comes from the Lord. We are not told to mete out punishment to nonbelievers. we are not in authority to punish anyone in Jesus’ name. We can only try to help them understand not deny them a right expecting them to agree to our belief because that is not going to happen. We can’t force them to believe and we can’t force them to live the life we live. So we should not be denying them a life right that we have no right to insist they believe in. There is no law in the bible that we can stop non-believers from sinning by our belief being considered to be better by anyone but believers.
            What the heck does it mean to us if they want to sin like that? we are to look after our own salvation and look for our own sin, not be a watch dog for everyone who sins. BEsides that it is not fair that you can deny one sinner something but not the next one because you don’t know their sin. We aren’t even supposed to be aware of others sins other than to speak of why we should not sin, not hang over everyone’s shoulders to see what sin we can pin on him. It’s not our world it is their world and we are not supposed to be of that world at all. SSMarriage is nothing without the first sin of homosexuality because it can’t be done without it. One sin is not worth more punishment as all sin is the same, so what is the point of stopping it when it is not the sin we want people to avoid in the first place. By the time they get married it’s way past time to try to do anything about the sin. If anything should be done it should be done before it gets to the point of marriage IMO.
            I look forward to seeing a case of inequality that equals denying people the right to a life that is like everyone else. I can’t imagine it saying to deny anything to a sinner because of their sin. Not my Jesus. He is not like that to the people he loves.
            I’ll put it the way my cousin used to
            Would Jesus deny a person a dry place to live, heat and water to someone, because of their sin?
            Would Jesus deny a person medical help, the ability to live in a clean place with the facilities that everyone else has, because of their sin?
            Would Jesus deny a person anything because of their sin, other than salvation since we’re talking about nonbelievers in the first place.
            Jesus did not tell us to deny their rights, just to tell them about sin and salvation not to try to force anyone to believe the way we believe. He wants no force used and denying people things because of their sin, is just wrong. everyone sins, no one is able to not sin. so does that mean we should deny ourselves things when we sin too? Because Jesus is fair like that.

          • TruthvLIes

            You said “It is the story where one couple held back part of the money from the sale of a possession and the man, then the woman were dead for lying to the Lord. It is told in Acts 5.

            In Acts five it mentions two people. It says nothing about a whole town giving them money.

          • TruthvLIes

            You said “God isn’t a respecter of persons, he cares not if you are rich or poor, a believer or not, he loves every single one of us and wants ALL TO COME TO REPENTANCE and he came to save the World not just a few favorites of his, because he has no favorites according to the scriptures.”

            Which is what I said.

          • TruthvLIes

            You said “That is not inequality to say not all will see the kingdom of God, it is a fact to warn the believers, not the nonbelievers. He does not include non-believers in the warnings he gives to us about our salvation.”

            What a weird connotation. The inequality which you have missed because you are so intent in pushing your views is this “Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God…”

            Born again, see the kingdom. Not born again. Will not see the kingdom. Nothing there about sin.

          • TruthvLIes

            You said “We are not told to mete out punishment to nonbelievers.”

            And no one has said that is our job.

          • TruthvLIes

            You said “So we should not be denying them a life right that we have no right to insist they believe in.”

            No one has said that. The issue is do we act as salt and light or keep our mouths shut?

          • Eldrida Urika

            being the salt and the light is how we show by example that our goodness and Jesus’ goodness and give glory to God. We don’t have to keep our mouths shut unless you are not behaving the way Jesus told us to. We are able to speak of our belief and what we think is right or wrong, but we still need to be careful not to be anything but good righteous and just people and that is how we make the world change, not with fighting and bad behavior like others who do not have our God behave. Our behavior has to stand out from what the rest of the world is like. It is what influences people not just words.

          • TruthvLIes

            You said “There is no law in the bible that we can stop non-believers from sinning by our belief being considered to be better by anyone but believers.”

            No one said that.

          • TruthvLIes

            You said “It’s not our world it is their world and we are not supposed to be of that world at all.”

            It is neither of ours world. It belongs to God and he can do whatever he wants with it.

          • Eldrida Urika

            He told us to not be of that world but to be peculiar people and live without the world influencing our lives. You are being a little picky to say that aren’t you? Everything is God’s without question. so there is no need to point that out, and he is doing what he wants with it. But he warns us to be different from the world we do not belong to, so we will not become like them.
            Am I the only one here that you are having trouble understanding or are you just feeling the need to keep at me about everything I say? I don’t mind explaining but considering I write a long reply with the intention of making everything fairly clear to most people, I find it odd that you keep misunderstanding what I am saying like you do.
            Do you think I’m fair game because I will not break down and treat you badly for it, or something? You have not tried to understand much from my writing so I am wondering if I did not make myself as clear as I try to do. I know others will not appreciate it if you make me write longer replies LOL. So try to understand what I am saying before you challenge me please?

          • TruthvLIes

            You said “We can’t force them to believe and we can’t force them to live the life we live. So we should not be denying them a life right that we have no right to insist they believe in.”

            We are doing neither. We are being salt and light which we are commanded to be.

          • TruthvLIes

            You said “Besides that it is not fair that you can deny one sinner something but not the next one because you don’t know their sin.”

            No one is doing this.

          • TruthvLIes

            You said “we are not in authority to punish anyone in Jesus’ name.”

            We are not doing that.

          • Eldrida Urika

            so by telling them they should not get married because it is our belief that they shouldn’t and trying to stop the marriages until it had to be made a law. You don’t see that as punishment to them? Well by denying them their right to marry, it is a form of punishment and yes if we try to say it is because of Jesus that we deny their right, then that is exactly what the Christians who feel it is wrong are doing.
            As I said to another poster, how would you feel if the situation were reversed? You wanted to marry the woman you love and they said no you are not allowed to because we do not believe that you should. Wouldn’t that make you feel like they were punishing you because of their belief even though it is not your belief? Look at it from their side and you will see that we are punishing them when we deny anything because of a sin.
            We have no authority to hurt others in any way. Love is our duty to show. It is His commandment, not to judge not to deny, to love and without exceptions made because of anything. no exceptions, we are to love everyone. so yea it is a form of punishment to make them feel unworthy because of our belief when others do not believe what we believe. They are no less worthy than we are in our sin. no matter what sin they commit. all sin is equal.
            You yourself may not be anything but the best of light and give glory to God every day all day, but others think they are supposed to get in people’s faces about how they sin, and that is not what Jesus told us to be like.
            So some Christians do do that and it just isn’t you. Good because no Christian should act like that. And I encourage you to continue to show the world how good Jesus is by your behavior. It’s love this world needs, not hatred and judgment of people by people outside of the law of the land of course. Everyone is different and that is what is beautiful about this world. We are allowed to be different from each other.

          • TruthvLIes

            You don’t see that as punishment to them?

            I will tell you what is punishment.

            Being made to watch your wife raped multiple times by members of ISIS.

            Being made to watch your 5 y.o. son being beheaded by a member of ISIS.

            Being told that if you don’t convert to Islam you have to pay an extra tax or be killed.

            Being told that if you don’t give up your christianity and adopt Islam again you will be killed.

            Being told that if you are found with a bible in your possession you will go to prison as is the case in North Korea.

            Having your house burst down by Hindu’s in India because you are a christian.

            Having your school bombed by muslims because it is a christian school as has happened in Nigeria.

            Being put in jail in Turkey because you are a christian leader.

            Being jailed in China because you held a christian gathering in your home.

            Being jailed or fined in the USA because you didn’t bow the knee to homosexual demands.

            I have not seen anywhere where homosexuals were given the right to marry, so who is kidding who?

          • TruthvLIes

            You said “We can’t force them to believe and we can’t force them to live the life we live.”

            We are not doing this.

          • TruthvLIes

            You said “It’s not written to tell nonbelievers that they can’t do things because we don’t.”

            We are not doing this.

          • TruthvLIes

            You said “There is no law in the bible that we can stop non-believers from sinning by our belief being considered to be better by anyone but believers.”

            No one is doing this.

          • TruthvLIes

            You said “I look forward to seeing a case of inequality that equals denying people the right to a life that is like everyone else.”

            Boy you are so out of touch with reality. There have been only about 55 million babies that have been denied the right to life that everyone else has.

          • Eldrida Urika

            I meant in the Bible not in life

          • TruthvLIes

            Of course you did, especially as you have been proven wrong so you must change tack to cover your backside.

          • Eldrida Urika

            No if I make a mistake I take responsibility for it.
            If I said I meant in the Bible then that is what I mean. I am honest and do not lie.
            Please do not disrespect me I do not try to disrespect you. I prefer to discuss not fight.
            If you don’t believe me that is up to you, but I do not lie, and I don’t like to be called dishonest. I am too old to play games . Games like that are a waste of time that I do not need to do. I try to stay focused on Jesus and his Commands and I know He approves of me so it matters not if you prefer to think badly about me. I do not live for you, I live for Jesus. So if you want to be like that, you are more than welcome to ignore what I say if you think I am a liar.

          • Eldrida Urika

            Calling someone a liar is not becoming of anyone especially when you are making a stab in the dark about my character.
            I do not lie. I hate liars and I have all my life. So do not accuse me of that, please. I take responsibility for my actions and words at all times so if you don’t want to accept what I say, fine, but do not accuse me of lying again.
            I find it especially offensive for someone who has no clue what kind of person i am because you haven’t even noticed my behavior obviously or you would not be saying I am a liar.
            You did not prove me wrong. You decided that you knew what i meant even though you were wrong and now you have to make me look like the problem instead of your own attempt at calling me a liar in this forum when it can make a difference to anyone who does not know me.
            I’m sure you would not want to be called a liar for anything you say either. So how about showing respect for others instead of being so rude as to make them out to be a bad person instead of seeing them for who they are.
            Keep up the way you are addressing me and I won’t reply anymore. I don’t deserve to be treated disrespectfully and I won’t just stand by and let it be. So try to remember to treat people the way you want to be treated instead of treating others badly and expecting to be treated well in return. I just refuse to give you the satisfaction of being as bad to you as you have been to me. I’m a better person by not giving in to your games. Thank you

          • TruthvLIes

            The New Testament is very clear that those who follow Jesus will experience suffering and trials and tribulation.

            If you are upset about being called a liar you are not going to do very well in the suffering stakes that Jesus has promised us.

            As they say, Man up and get some backbone or you will fall at the first hurdle.

          • Eldrida Urika

            I don’t believe Jesus was talking about a Christian being rude and trying to ruin my reputation as a Christian who does know the Gospel. He told us to be loving and care about each other not try to demean a sister or anyone else.
            If you are not Christian, I still expect to be treated with respect regardless of who you are or what you believe in as a senior that has a lot of life experience and as a person.
            You have no reason to treat me so ignorantly when I have said nothing to you about you personally nor about what you say. I tell you what I mean, direct you to look at the scriptures yourself, so YOU can determine it’s truth YOURSELF and I demand NOTHING of anyone. I regularly state that it is YOUR responsibility to verify what I say. Repeatedly telling me that I am wrong just tells me you never looked for it at all, and you have no idea what the scriptures say so you are refusing to do what Jesus told us to do to confirm the scriptures.
            Last time because I am not replying to you anymore with those rude things continuing,
            I do not tell ANYONE to believe what I say.
            I tell everyone to look for themselves and decide for themselves if the scriptures say what I say they do.
            By looking it up yourselves it makes you see them, deciding on them, and it is ALL in your own control to do.
            On top of that you are going against what Jesus said in many ways, so you are obviously just trying to ‘get to me’ and I won’t let you.
            Experiencing suffering and trials and tribulation, in case you aren’t aware of it, is what we go through to grow in our faith. EVERYONE goes through those things, not just Christians, it is what we do when we have those things that shows God if you are honest in your devotion since many have never even read the bible and those things are explained in the scriptures. As a matter of a fact, Jesus also explained that God will provide a way to get out of the trials when they become too much to bear for us and we pray for his help. It is by learning the lesson that makes the trial shorter. I have learned this again, by experience and knowledge of the Gospel.
            So again, good bye, I am quite capable of choosing who to discuss things with here, and you are one that I will be ignoring as a someone who is not able to discuss without the added insults.

          • TruthvLIes

            Stop waffling Eldrida. You say the same thing over and over and over again and it is becoming tiresome.

            What are you going to do if they tell you that you are going to prison because you broke secular law and preached the name of Jesus?

            How dare you treat me so ignorantly? You have no right to do that.

          • Eldrida Urika

            First of all, can you imagine the world with 55 million more people? where would they be put since most of the world is having trouble with too many people right now.

            So maybe some deaths are necessary to stop the overcrowding. After all when one dies, another is born so there is a cycle to death and life.

            not that I agree with abortions but I trust that everything happens for a reason that only God can know, so I know there is a reason for those poor babies deaths. Don’t forget too, that all innocent children go directly to heaven. He loves the little children so anything that happens must have a very good reason for it. He does not do things just cause. there is always a reason why everything happens.
            Also, I was asking for a bible reference to that statement I expect because there is no such scripture telling us to treat people with anything but love.
            Please do not twist my words as I write a lot to make sure they are clear. There is no way you did not understand that was in reference to proof that Jesus would agree with denying something because of their sin. Sins can be repented for. Love is necessary in all things to be good like Jesus.

          • TruthvLIes

            Again more New Age mumbo jumbo.

            You definitely need to do your homework instead of sounding of with nice sounding epithets.

            An extra 55 million would make no difference at all if there were not so many dictators taking an inordinate amount of produce for themselves.

            Take Mugabe who has just been deposed as leader of Zimbabwe. He lived in absolute luxury in a palace worth $10 million whilst his people live in poverty and the country had a $5 billion inflation rate making money worthless.

            A friend of mine who is a minister did a calculation and he found out that the world produced enough goods to feed everyone on the planet.

            Millions were starving because of the cruelty of dictators not the shortage of food.

            Millions are still starving so why don’t we do the compassionate thing and kill 50% of newborn babies? Doh!

            A reason for those poor babies deaths? Of course there is and it is the sinfulness and selfishness of adults, not some New Age mumbo jumbo.

            He does not do things just cause. Whatever does that mean?

          • Eldrida Urika

            Good bye, you are just attacking either me and/or Christianity.
            Nothing about that money is about anything I have ever ever posted about. I have no clue, nor do I want to discuss it.
            You know what an Adult knows that there are good people and bad people in the world and some are better than others and some are abominations and YOU should be darned Thankful if you live in America because it will not be easy to make changes here. If you are not in our countries then you are talking to the wrong people because there are organizations that already deal with things like that around the world.
            You do not have any reason to be speaking to me like this and I’d be surprised if I had not told you before that I do not appreciate being disrespected by someone I respect so I guess I take that back. If you do not have a reason to be respectful to another human being who I’m pretty sure has a large amount of life experiences you’ve never had, then I don’t have any reason to be upset, as I can’t respect anyone who can treat a person like you are treating me in your post.
            You will likely be banned for your hateful posts by someone flagging your comments, because I will not lower myself to your level, so it won’t be me.
            But I am able to not reply.

          • TruthvLIes

            You said “Jesus did not tell us to deny their rights, just to tell them about sin and salvation not to try to force anyone to believe the way we believe.”

            Jesus told us to be salt and light and that means standing up against the evil that is in the world especially when government supports evil.

          • Eldrida Urika

            I didn’t say you shouldn’t stand up for our beliefs, I said that non-believers have the ability to choose not to follow Jesus and he would not deny them rights that everyone else has because of a sin.

            Jesus gave us a message about love, not sin. sin will disappear if everyone loved each other and did not want to hurt (sin) the ones they love. He didn’t focus just on the sin, he focused on love. He spoke about sin, but always ended it with a word about our love being most important. He commanded us to love every one. He told us that sin is what is hurtful to others and if we love we will not want to sin.

            I don’t understand why so many Christians ignore his commandment to love every one and seem to just focus on the sins of others instead of their own. Our responsibility is to recognize our sin and repent for it. We are not responsible for other people’s sin. Only our own and our brethren. Non-believers are not ours to tell them about the sin without telling them about salvation. and then Jesus told us to let them choose and leave them to their deaths if they choose not to follow him. Other than talking to them about Salvation, we have no right to telling them anything about their sins. We can’t treat anyone else like Christians treat gays because no one else will tell us their sins. So they are the only ones they can try to make themselves feel better about their own sins, I guess. Because there is no commandment to do more than tell them and let them choose their own belief or not.

            If people did not treat gays as bad as they have in the past, do you think they would have made such a big stand to have their rights? NO they wouldn’t and most of the people that came out just to make that stand, would not be considered sinners without that knowledge that was forced to be made known because of the way people treat them badly. That reason alone is pitiful for a Christian to know that other Christians would treat anyone like they have gays. Christians are supposed to display the best of everything not act badly towards anyone for their sin or for any other reason.

            We are supposed to shine our lights of goodness so others will see the goodness of Jesus and give Glory to our God because of it.

            We can stand up for our faith without acting badly like the world does. And that is what we should as Christians be doing. Love, compassion, helping others with their needs. that is what a Christian is about, not making others feel crappy about themselves about something they don’t believe in in the first place. You need to teach them without the judgement hanging over their heads. otherwise why would anyone want to come to a God that his people treat others badly for? If our god wanted us to treat others badly he would not be the loving god he is. I apologize for not capitalizing God but I’m having trouble with my keyboard, so it’s easier not to try (and less frustrating)
            Being the salt and the light is about being good people not about standing up against evil. I don’t understand why you think our good behavior is anything other than that by being the salt and the light we are showing how good we are so others will want to be good like us, by our example. Our light is all about being good so our light will shine and bring glory to God because of our goodness. We stand up against evil every time we are better than the evil in the world and not use evil in our lives. That is what the salt and the light is about. showing our best and making them want what we have to make us so content within ourselves. It is all by example that we stand up to evil. We are light and light covers darkness so by being a bright light we are standing up to the darkness of evil by hiding it with love – light. You do realize that the light we shine is the love we have, right?

          • TruthvLIes

            More new age mumbo jumbo.

            Not so long ago the average person would not have known a homosexual. I did not know one. So the fact is they were not treated badly in the past because you can’t treat someone badly you don’t know. That is just spin the rainbow raiders use to claim victim status.

            The word SIN appears 112 times in the New Testament. I wonder why? I guess Jesus did not consider that talking about it was a sin.

            Being salt and light is being a barrier against evil. If it is dark, and you switch the light on Bingo the darkness goes. If the food doesn’t have much taste sprinkle some salt on it and Bingo it has taste.

            In my comprehensive study of revivals one feature is very prominent. God makes people feel crappy about themselves and that is what brought repentance into their lives.

            You said “That is what the salt and the light is about. showing our best and making them want what we have to make us so content within ourselves.”

            Yet in a previous post you said we are no better than anyone else so do tell me how they are going to want what we have if we have nothing?

          • TruthvLIes

            You said ” He wants no force used and denying people things because of their sin, is just wrong.

            We are not doing that.

          • Eldrida Urika

            When people deny the gays the right to not believe and try to make them believe that getting married is not right because OUR belief says it is not, it is trying to force others to abide by our beliefs even though they do not believe
            Yes they are being denied the right to get married, although it’s a law now and it won’t go our way anyway, when one does not believe they do not have to follow our belief and that includes the way we believe marriage should be.
            If it was reversed and it was them telling you that you CANT get married to the woman you love because it is against Their belief, would you care about their belief or would you get married anyway because your belief is yours and theirs is theirs.
            So by trying to stop nonbelievers from sinning by their marriage, you are trying to force others to follow a belief they do not have.
            Is that clearer?
            Jesus would not deny a person the ability to live happily because of a sin. He wants us to choose not to sin, and understands that we will sin because it is in our fleshy selves. But he never told us to rebuke the sinners, just each other because we know the consequences of sinning and need to be reminded if we are seen sinning. He did not say to rebuke the sinners. Not once. He told us to leave them alone knowing the way they will be dealt with in the end. He never once told us to go out and yell at anyone about their sin. And he still would not agree with it because he wants us to behave properly with love and compassion towards everyone and sinners especially so we will influence them in a good way, not in a judgemental way. I do not allow anyone to be my judge except God and he is the only one that can punish for sin.
            So when people tell gays they are going to hell for marrying the same gender, they are going against God’s Word to leave them alone.

          • TruthvLIes

            Is that clearer?

            No. It is just New Age mumbo Jumbo which you seemed to have swallowed hook line and sinker.

            The word ‘WRATH” appears 47 times in the New Testament. I wonder why?

          • TruthvLIes

            You said “Blacks, immigrants, everyone is to be given equal rights and someone’s sin does not take that right away.”

            You do a disservice to humanity to compare homosexuals with blacks or immigrants etc.

            Blacks are black because they born black. Immigrants are immigrants mainly because they are escaping a war torn landscape.

            Homosexuals on the other hand are homosexuals because they had a same sex attraction and decided to act on it. The original attraction was not of their making but the choice to act on it was.

            If they had talked to someone about their sexual attraction before they got into bed with another man, they might well have not gone down that path.

            They are no different to promiscuous heterosexuals whose sexual attraction to females is out of control so they give in to it and become promiscuous. It is a choice they make evidenced by the millions of single men who choose not to be promiscuous.

          • Eldrida Urika

            MY point is that people are people It has nothing to do with anything else. It just means everyone has equal rights. You’re not supposed to even think about how they sin.
            So people who choose to be different by our standards are not worth having equal rights?
            Doesn’t that include us for having different beliefs than everyone else? Give me a break, we choose to believe – they choose not to believe. Just like every other non-believer that exists in the world today. Who made you an authority on punishing people on earth for their sins? NO ONE. God is the only authority to punish for sins and not one person is allowed to think they have any authority to punish a sinner..NONE.
            If you believe God gave us the authority to punish a sinner for their sin, show me the scriptures that state that clearly, because he never told us to.
            You really have to understand that the world does not believe as we do and we can’t force them to. We aren’t supposed to force our beliefs on other. YOu are forcing anyone who is different to believe they are sinners even though they do not believe the way you do.
            Can’t force our Lord’s belief on anyone. So denying anything because of the sin is wrong. period.
            Christians like you blow me away. You seem to think that the world relies on your belief to live the way they do and they could care less about your belief so why should they bother believing it is a sin to be different.
            Where is the love that we are supposed to have for everyone? Where is the compassion and empathy that we are supposed to show to other people regardless of their sins. You don’t know anyone’s sin that you can be so arrogant about except these ones. So you have to go as far as you can to make it look like you are the only one who is right and as a Christian I don’t agree with your belief. And I can base that on scriptures 100%

          • TruthvLIes

            You said “Where is the love that we are supposed to have for everyone?”

            I have already pointed that out to you but the fact that you are still whining about your pet peeves suggests it is a case of a big chip on a little shoulder.

          • TruthvLIes

            You said “Can’t force our Lord’s belief on anyone. So denying anything because of the sin is wrong. period”

            No one has said that is what they want to do.

          • TruthvLIes

            You said “You seem to think that the world relies on your belief to live the way they do”

            Such nonsensical rubbish.

          • TruthvLIes

            You said “Equal rights is not against Jesus or the bible. I stand behind anyone who is being told they do not have the same right as everyone else.”

            This is a silly statement as the world is full of situations where equality is not even a consideration.

            For example one of the mantras of the homosexual is a claim that everyone has the right to marry. The fact is they don’t.

            A father does not have the right to marry his daughter.
            A father does not have the right to marry his son.
            A boy does not have the right to marry his dog.
            A man does not have the right to marry 10 women (excluding Islam and mormonism)
            a 50 year old does not have the right to marry a 10 year old.
            A teacher does not have the right to marry a student.

            I could add another 50 cases of inequality in marriage but that will do for now so the homosexuals claiming that everyone has the right to marriage is hogwash.

          • TruthvLIes

            You said “Christianity has earned a bad reputation by the way they display so much hate towards others who are different.”

            Ever thought of focusing on all those christians who display extreme love for those who are different which are a far larger cohort than those who hate?

            For example the American couple who gave up their riches and went to Malawi to rescue all the orphans on the streets whose parents had died from AIDS?

            They used all their money to build orphanages for them and to feed, clothe and educate them. Some of them are in University now. Without the help of the Americans they would still be on the street.

            When they weren’t doing that they were sharing the good news of Jesus with the people of Malawi which the people could not deny because of their selfless work with orphans.

            To date 6,000 new churches have come about because of their work all led by indigenous Malawi’s.

            And it is a fact that the majority of caring ministries for those who have an unwanted same sex attraction is provided by Christians.

            And please note I did not say caring ministry for those who have a same sex attraction. I said for those who had an UNWANTED same sex attraction. There is a difference.

          • TruthvLIes

            You said “Considering we are supposed to be peculiar people and not of this world, we are not supposed to show hate for people and that is what the Christians who try to tell the sinners is showing for them.”

            it is sad when a supposed Christian gives the impression that the default position for other Christians is hate.

            When I think back over my 63 years as christian I don’t think I have hated anyone except myself because of some of the stupid things I have done.

          • TruthvLIes

            You said “We can warn the world all we can but it is not likely to make a change at this stage as it is all been made into laws everywhere.”

            I am so glad that my God is much bigger than your God.

          • TruthvLIes

            You said “He’s not going to ignore the Christians who do not follow his commands so they will have to justify their actions to God.”

            You have ignored one big and important consideration which is if we confess our sin he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.

            God does not delight in our sin so he can punish us. He delights in forgiving us so we can walk in new life with him.

          • Eldrida Urika

            Do you think disobeying Jesus’ word is something that you can repent for and still disobey though? It is Jesus that told us that we must obey his commands so it is HIS decision not mine when he told us that we have to obey his commands and by not following all of those commands, not just picking out the ones we don’t mind doing but even doing the harder things, he will have to see a change about obeying his orders or it will not be a true repentance. So for one thing, again, I am telling you how Jesus told us not my own words, Jesus’ Words. I don’t even insist you believe me without searching the scriptures and even then I told you it is up to you to do whatever you feel you should do when someone corrects and error a sister or brothers point out to you. I told you the Truth, I told you about the scriptures and told you to comfirm what I have said as the Truth, and you are obviously to arrogant to even consider that I am telling you God’s OWN WORDS, and you aren’t interested in finding out if you can lose your salvation because you don’t believe me and you aren’t going to bother to verify my words. Your loss not mine, and at this point, it will be a loss for Jesus because if you think that you can ignore what I have told you, Go ahead. It’s no skin off my nose. I am confident in my salvation because of my relationship with Jesus and HE is the ONLY one who’s truth I will talk about ever. So if you want to take the chance that what I say is wrong, I encourage you to make your own decision, but do not keep twisting what I mean in my explanations to make them sound like there is no solid basis of scriptures behind every one because there is not one thing I say is in scriptures that is not. I only go by scriptures so you are the one who is refusing to listen to a correction and it is you who will have to justify to God why you ignored what I said, without even confirming the scriptures to ensure you did not have to follow what I pointed out as The Truth.
            It is a thing that Jesus told us we are to do and by not doing it when it is in scriptures telling us to do it, anyone who does not follow Jesus’ directions about confirming scriptures, can expect to be asked why you did not do what Jesus told us to do in this exact circumstances.
            I guess it depends again on how well you actually know the gospel and the scriptures that are Jesus’ commands for us to follow. You don’t sound like you are even remotely interested in finding out what I say is true, you just want to keep telling me I am wrong without looking at the scriptures. So why should I keep trying when you won’t?
            No I will not allow my Jesus’s Words to be twisted. I do not believe that is a smart thing for anyone to do, and I would never imagine trying to justify to myself let alone to Jesus why I would twist His Words when I would not do that in the first place.
            God’s Word is Truth and if you want to pick apart everything I say, I recommend you look for what I have said first before you say more than you should without knowing those scriptures. Otherwise you might have to rescind some of the ways you replied to my explanations of Jesus’ words.
            So I’m done unless you are willing to look for those scriptures you are not trying to discuss you are trying to demean what I say, and I won’t stand back and ignore what you are doing. I’ve had others be outright resisters to God’s Word when I’ve told them the Truth before and I won’t stop telling the Truth because you want to feel more aware of the scriptures when in truth you are not if you ignore a word of what Jesus told us.

            So find someone else to put down as far as I am concerned, you are not demeaning my words, you are putting down Jesus’ Words and that will be for you to repent for, not for me. I am doing exactly what I have been made to know to do, so This is totally on your own self confidence of the knowledge of the scriptures and not your arrogance of knowing better that I do, I can tell you right now you do not know it better if you do not know these things I tell you.

            I don’t understand how you can ignore what scriptures say. I can’t do that. I just skip a page and think I could not have missed anything important. To me every single word that Jesus said is of the highest importance so if that is not true for you, just go follow your own belief and leave me to following Jesus and not your belief.

            Blessings.

          • TruthvLIes

            You said “So standing in the way of an non-believer who wants to be married is against what Jesus said.”

            One. We are not standing in the way of a non believer who wants to get married. The subject matter is the marriage of a man to man or a woman to a woman. Their spiritual status is not being considered.

            Two. We are called to be salt and light in society and to do that we have to take a different view to the world when what they are doing is in contravention to what God wants. To remain silent is to put our light under a bushel.

          • TruthvLIes

            You said “He never said to deny them anything that we are allowed to have in our lives. not once.”

            This is airy fairy thinking. Most law and order applications include the deprivation of things that law abiding citizens are granted, the most obvious one being freedom.

          • TruthvLIes

            You said “He never meant for us to do anything with sinners but show love and compassion and empathy because we are sinners too and we too have times when it is not easy to overcome our sins.”

            God does not judge a person sin according to another person’s sin or lack of it. Each one is accountable for their sin and whether the person who is sharing the gospel with them is sinless or not is irrelevant.

            As we know God can use anything and anyone as in donkeys and stones.

          • Eldrida Urika

            That’s right so why do people think we should judge sinners with any other measure than how Jesus does?
            Are you speaking of the scripture where God told us himself in the OT that he is not a respecter of persons and does not give a punishment for one sin as different to another because of any perceived stature in the persons, but only on the fact that all sin is punished in the same way in all cases and so one sin is not worse than another in any way, nor will it’s punishment be any different? That’s the only place you could have confused what I said about judging according to another person’s sin? You did not follow what I said I guess or I did not make myself as clear and I tried to .
            I have no idea why you think I base anything on the person who is sharing the gospel or anything like that?
            So I said nothing that disagrees with anything you have said at all.
            it is the same thing only you seemed to have confused what I have meant by your explanation as it does not go with anything I believe so it must be a misunderstanding about what I was trying to say.
            That’s where the problem is.
            I never said that god would judge one sinners sin against another what I said was in reference to the scripture that God told us he is no respecter of persons. You can read that scripture and you will understand what I was saying better I think.
            I really want to emphasis that I do not tell you what I do by my own needs but by the guidance I am given by the Lord. I have a responsibility much like a messenger to get the message to others and leave it in their hands for their own edification. I can’t do a thing beyond help others to see what I am being guided to see IN God’s Word. I do not write the scriptures and they were always there for everyone to see what I am talking about so all I know is what I am lead to do, and how to support what I am saying with scriptures to back every single thing up with God’s own Words. How can I lead anyone astray? 1. I tell them about the Truth, 2. I tell them to look it up and confirm the Truth for themselves like Jesus told us to in scriptures 3. I tell them to believe what they read in those scriptures and they will know if I am telling the truth, so I am not doing anything but directing others to the scriptures for themselves not for me to be closer to God by learning to be obedient to Lord Jesus. Everything is up to you or others to make their own choices about every step once I have explained the Truth, it is all up to you to decide what to do about whether what I say is true or not. It’s all up to your choice in every way.
            So I think that pretty well proves to others than I am not a tool of the devil trying to mislead anyone because if you are reading the scriptures yourself it is you that decides not me. I just direct you the way I am guided by the Lord who guides me in many ways about many things. It is your choice to believe me or not. It makes absolutely no difference to my salvation or my peace within my soul because I know I speak only the truth. I love everyone the way Lord Jesus commanded us to. How could I tell a lie with that love in my heart and soul and in every breath I take.
            I would ask you to believe me on His Word not on mine. Blessings!

          • TruthvLIes

            You said “I follow Jesus very closely and know his word very well, so that is why I tell you this. It is according to Jesus’ Word that says to long-suffer the non-believers just like God long-suffers our times of sinning. ”

            Judging by your last tome, I doubt that you know his word. What you do know is your version of his word. God says a lot of things that can be applied to this situation but you seemed to have avoided most of them.

          • Eldrida Urika

            so show me the proof i am wrong.

          • TruthvLIes

            I did.

          • TruthvLIes

            Finally you said “He never meant for us to do anything with sinners but show love and compassion and empathy because we are sinners too and we too have times when it is not easy to overcome our sins.”

            One. I am sad that you think that most Christians out there lack love and compassion. In my country there are 25 major charities. Eighteen of them are Christian. Not one is atheist. That tells me Christians are on top of the league when it comes to love and compassion.

            And I am not aware that Christian have said here that it is easy to overcome sin.

          • Truth first

            “to say that a sin is a reason to deny their rights is against Jesus’ Word. ”
            God is not a human rights lawyer or democrat, Eldrida.
            Their are no human rights when it comes to the Kingdom of heaven. There are divine precepts that we have to obey, no, WANT to obey if we are Christ followers. Jesus can only be our Saviour if we allow him to be our Master. “Obey my commands”, he instructs us. Are we not making God out to be a liar when we state that unrepenting gays and lesbians will inherit the Kingdom of heaven? Doesn’t God’s word say exactly the opposite?

          • TruthvLIes

            Well said Truth first. Much better than those wishy washy christians who bend with the prevailing wind.

          • Truth first

            Thanks TvL. We must always be aware that as Christians we not just KNOW the thruth, we OWN it, HAVE it in us in the form of the Holy Spirt, and God wants us not to keep it for ourselves, but to shout it off the rooftops and to share the treasure of Jesus’ Gospel with others. In short, as Christians we are Truth activists who should always be ready to confront the lies of Satan.

          • TruthvLIes

            Truth activists. I like that.

          • Truth first

            I believe that i what defines us as Christians: an all encompassing love for truth. The Truth. And the integrity to follow it through without compromise.

          • Eldrida Urika

            You are not telling me anything I don’t know. I have given my life to Jesus and I am not going against his word in any way. I have never said that they will go to heaven. not once ever. but they must be given the chance to change no matter who they are or what their sin is.
            Do you realize that you do not know of anyone else’s sin and can’t be so hateful about their sins, so you just have these to bully about not wanting to believe like we do.
            God gave us all the free will to choose to follow or not. He has given them the same and will not condemn them until judgement day and you have no authority to say who will and who will not convert and be saved. You might think someone is a lost cause but you can’t know positively because you don’t know what is coming up in their lives that will make a difference.
            You are arrogant with your attitude as if a Christian is a better person than everyone else. You do not act like Jesus told us to but you want to try and argue with what I say about what our duty and responsibilities are towards others and how much authority we have compared to God.
            I obey his commands apparently more than you do as his commands tell us to love everyone without exception. He told us we are all sinners and no one is better than another because of that. You ignore the whole message and commands about how to behave but you tell me about Obeying his commands without a sign of you doing that yourself.
            God did not command us to be hurtful towards anyone not even sinners. We are to love them not hate the person and we hate our own sin as much as we hate any sin.
            It is Jesus who told us that all are equal when he washed the apostles feet. He told us very plainly that we are all the same as each other. no one is the boss and no one is the servant alone. Sometimes we are the boss and sometimes we are not. sometimes we are the servant and sometimes we are not. No one is better than another person in God’s eyes and if you believe I am wrong prove it. Show me scriptures where Jesus tells us we are better people because of our belief. You won’t find one. Jesus believed in equality. It’s also shown in the story of the couple who held back money when the apostles we combining everyone’s assets to be able to divide them up among them all, so everyone would start off from that point on as equals. Go ahead, look it up. Acts 5. You will see it spelled out very plainly for everyone to understand.

          • TruthvLIes

            Your posts are getting tiresome as all they seem to be is your opinion which has no life in it.

            “Do you realize that you do not know of anyone else’s sin and can’t be so hateful about their sins, so you just have these to bully about not wanting to believe like we do.”

            I am not sure what this esoteric mumbo jumbo is supposed to mean.

            Of course we can know of another’s sin. Are you saying we can’t know that sin of a murderer when his picture is on the front page of every newspaper?

            God does not have to condemn them because their sin condemns them.

            if a person is not a better person than someone else what is the point of Jesus dying on the cross as he came to set us free and put us on the path of sanctification. What you are saying is that sanctification doesn’t work so Jesus death on the cross was a waste of time.

            Acts 5 has nothing at all to do with equality. it was included to show how God saw lying.

            And we are NEVER THE BOSS. Jesus is the boss…ALWAYS and we are his servants called to do his will. That is the most basic of christian doctrine.

          • Eldrida Urika

            Good go away please.

          • Truth first

            We are not hating unbelievers by disagreeing with them, and telling them the Truth, Eldrida. If we do not tell them about heaven and hell we are like doctors sending cancer patients home with aspirins telling them they have a slight cold but knowing full well that they will die without treatment. We are IN the world, but not OF it. We are a holy priesthood, holy meaning “set apart” from the world. Even if the entire world would say something is normal or acceptable, we must be Bereans and test everything comparing it with the Bible.

            As for atheists, yes God loves them as he wants all to go to heaven. So he gives everyone a fair chance and free choice to accept his Son as their Saviour. And in the process to become Christians. Romans 1:20 tells you why they have no excuse NOT to believe in God.

            However, he is above all a JUST and RIGHTEOUS God who has provided us with the knowledge of how to enter his Kingdom. To go against his word and still believe you will go to heaven is folly.

            Moreover, God would be an unjust God if he would treat unbelievers the same way as believers. Some believers gave their lives for Jesus, or were persecuted or ridiculed, suffered for him. How can there be any justice if he would allow those ridiculing Him, blaspheming against him and persecuting his children, would also enter heaven? That does not make sense whatsoever. It would also mean SIN would enter heaven, which is impossible. Jesus’ blood whitewashed the sins of hi children and they are to him as without sin.

          • TruthvLIes

            A lovely, caring and truthful comment Truth first.

          • Eldrida Urika

            I don’t believe that the right methods are being used. I think the hate is emphasized too much when we treat no other sinners like the way they treat gays etc for their sin like it is any worse than our sins when God stated that all sin is equal to another. We tell others about Salvation and sin without making everyone feel bad about themselves instead of their sin.
            How have you decided that I am going against God’s word? I want them to hear about Salvation and make them want to desire to give up their sins just like we did. Not by bearing anyone up verbally but by showing our love and compassion because we know how difficult it can be ourselves. Do you really think that being cruel about their sin is going to make them desire Salvation? We need to treat them the same as all sinners. It is the way we behave that shows that we are not cruel and Judgemental. Why would you want salvation when you are introduced to it by a doomsday sentence when it should be told with The story not the sin first. Tell the story first and treat others the way we want to be treated. And anyone who treats them cruelly is going against God’s Word, not I.

          • Truth first

            It’s a balancing act, Eldrida, between truth and love.
            Our approach of fellow Christians living in continued sin is likely to be different from our approach with unbelievers. With Christians we can be frank and direct, as they (are supposed to) know God’s Word. A gay/lesbian lifestyle is just not on and you cannot be a child of God if you continue in that sin. Hell will be your destination.

            With unbelievers, and that’s probably your point, we want to win them over for Christ first after which those living in sin will shed their old bad habits bit by bit. Letting them know God loves them, and showing that love towards them, is important. Reborn Christians will automatically change their lives entirely, especially when it comes to substance abuse, violence and sexual sin (bot homosexual and heterosexual. They will start thinking differently about abortion, evolution and Israel, if they were previously aligned with the world in those respects.

            But as Christians we HAVE to let the world know, believers AND unbelievers, that we adhere to a divine benchmark that can be found in the Bible. We can therefore never ever vote for any justification of a union between a man and a woman.

            It’s simple: we have no opinion about these things. We simply take our cue from God’s word, without questioning. We HAVE to stand out in moral issues, Eldrida. If we blend in with the world we would crucify Jesus all over again.

          • Eldrida Urika

            Sorry for the delay in my reply, I am having computer problems currently and pray they will continue to work without any more problems.

            Ok, I’ll try to be clearer about what I am saying.

            When I was a teaching my children about things that were not proper behavior (so to speak, but in kids level) It was done with extreme love and caring whether it was before, or after the “wrong” was done the first time. I never ever had to yell at my kids because I explained the problem carefully and clearly and they were able to understand the point I was making and be able to choose between ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ without being cruel with my love for my children. I was just as loving and caring as a Christian is supposed to be when telling others about sin, and my children learned about easily because I learned that the old saying that you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, and treating them with love and kindness is more effective than being negative and condemning people of their sins that are our belief and not theirs. If we approach the more hesitant to listen with a kinder approach because if it really is about the love we have for them, that love should be evident in how we speak and what we say and even when it is said with the upmost care, it can still be seen and hurtful and cruel but with an approach like the one that we do use at church and is proven effective to turn people to Jesus, why is it necessary to be particularly hard on gays when it is the same things as what any of us do: sin. We are all sinners every one.

            One sin is not greater than another, so one person’s sin of swearing is still equal in punishment for the sin of homosexuality, right? God is no respecter of persons and does not regard one sin as different from any other.

            So why do we treat them so much harsher than someone we do not know the sin of? Is that really righteous of us to treat one sin and sinner differently when each is a sin that requires repentance, and by believing in Jesus, with the right encouragement, the sinner who comes to church on their own, they will believe and desire to give up sin for salvation and with help overcoming their sin when the burden is too much to bear alone, while they still need to learn to trust God to help, we need to encourage them to stay with it and help when they want to fall, or even after they fail, That is what we are supposed to do with all sinners and Jesus never told us to treat one sinner differently than another ever. So isn’t it actually more righteous and just of us in a reflection of Jesus to not be heavier with a sin we know about than a sin we are not told about because of their equal value and the more effective method that has been proven to work by teaching with the love and faith we have for Jesus showing and helping them grow stronger in the Lord with our help and prayers they are more likely to want to give up their sin that will threats of punishment than with a confidence that they can be someone who can be saved with repentance, just like every other sinner can be confident about the same thing.
            If a gay is going to turn to Jesus it is because they are drawn to it in some way before they are helped by other Christians IF they accept it. Telling the compete story of salvation is essential to give the desire to change and fight the temptations of sin, because with out the belief, and without that desire, it won’t work for them anyway. They need positive encouragement not condemnation of something that mean so much to them without letting be a sin by not believing.

            Positive reinforcement has proven far more effective than negative anything! so again I ask, why do we treat one sin as different than another just because we find out about their sin?
            So yes, I completely agree with telling them, and with love and compassion and with the positive being given instead of making it all about the negatives of sin, make it about how when we try not to sin, our lives change to being better than when we just did what we wanted to do instead of living with the guidance of Jesus?

            If one sin is not pushed as a possible punishment of hell, but is encouraged as something to be happy to want to not do and the joy and peace that comes with our belief, and acceptance of Jesus with love and trust.
            How can anyone trust a God who the very followers say will punish them for their behavior on the one hand, and who says but I will forgive you when you repent and turn away from your sin, without learning to first trust in God’s promises. Trust is the very foundation of faith because it is impossible to have complete faith in someone without trusting them too.

            We need to show sinners the goodness of Jesus and his love and compassion not our father’s anger about sin. Jesus only got angry with the times that were 1. prophecies and 2. were about using the church in the most inappropriate ways by teaching /living incorrectly and by ruining the sanctity of the church with the animals in cages for sale and the money lenders. Otherwise any speaking Jesus did about sin was finished with something about Love. every time. He was saying often that Love covers sin, which means LOVE is MORE IMPORTANT than sin because if you have love for others you will not want to sin against them.

            So I think Jesus was telling us that we need to tell people about sin and help them know and understand what sin is and how to prevent it, but that we should encourage people to love everyone so the sin is not there as much.
            Can you see what I am relating to you with this? and Why I say I feel we need to approach them differently because we are not getting through to many of them the way we are working with them, and maybe the different approach is what is needed to make the difference of what they choose for themselves.
            We need to do something or they won’t turn to Jesus no matter what we say because the methods we are using right now are not working in the majority of cases.

            Did I make enough sense using what Jesus wanted and told us to explain how there is no righteousness in telling someone their sin is worse than another because it is not true. If we want to be righteous then we have to show them why we believe and why we desire to change ourselves for Jesus and Salvation so they can understand how we express our devotion to Jesus and with prayers, might just listen and learn and make a choice that they might not have made if they only heard the negatives and not the positives in the forefront.

            I just believe that when Jesus kept talking about love, his commandment is about love his treatment of others is with love, everything Jesus did was out of love. Sin is from not having the love that stops you from wanting to hurt someone you love. if you love, you try not to hurt so not to sin.

            I really really hope that I made it clear with all this writing because I hate pushing so much and making my posts this long but I don’t want to be misunderstood and not help others to understand what I am saying and that it is all scriptural if you know the scriptures.

            Jesus never told us to rebuke the unbelievers in the first place so I don’t think he would approve of how we lay heavy on the sin they don’t believe in instead of the love he wants in everyone’s heart for each other so that will end sin at some point when the love is in everyone’s heart.

            I pray I did make a difference in something because I really feel strongly about the message that Jesus was about love not being bad children. Learning about sin was how to avoid it, not what to do to commit sin. It is not the focus to tell them only what sin is but also to avoid it and recognize it and repent. And with enough love anything is possible, because Jesus wants us to experience the love he has for every single one of us, and it is that love for us that makes us love him so much and makes us desire to make him happy just because of that love.
            Obeying his commands are a part of that love and the reverence we must show for our Father in Heaven and Lord Jesus.

            Sin is like another command telling us to not do something, it’s not supposed to be what Christians are supposed to be focused on either. We need to know about it only to avoid it, and so does anyone who sins and does not want to hurt the ones they love.

            Gays are not different than any other sinner in fact. Just in people’s judgemental eyes. Not in Jesus’ eyes.

            Blessings and again I’m sorry for the length but it’s important to me to have you see because we do follow a lot of the same beliefs and ways of those beliefs and anyone who knows the scriptures should be able to read them and see what I mean and I think you know the scriptures and would have valid opinion for me to hear how I am wrong in what I have said. I’d really appreciate an honest look at what I feel Jesus’ message meant to helping others with sin. It’s not that I would not encourage everyone to give up their sin no matter what the sin is, just take away the focus and put the focus on what Jesus commanded us about Love over and over again. Giving up sin is like a part of loving someone. like giving up smoking for someone who is close who has had an experience with lung cancer. If you truly love someone you will give up the excesses of life and live without them because of that love.

            sorry i’m still trying to make myself clear… Blessings! 😀

          • Eldrida Urika

            He loves us all equally and treats us all the same way. He tells us that clearly many times in the scriptures. God would be unjust if he treated anyone badly at all. And he is not a respecter of persons so no he is not unjust by treating them the same as he treats us until the day of judgement.
            I never said anyone who is not a believer or sins without repentance should be going to heaven. not once as I do not believe that.
            Sin will be punished BY GOD on judgment day and we have no option but to wait for him to judge them and punish them as we have no authority to punish for crimes that are not against the law of the land.
            It doesn’t matter what people do until they die or the end comes because Jesus told us that some will realize the error of their ways and turn to Jesus and he said we cannot know another’s heart and can not judge them the way he is able to. All we can do is behave well as examples and bring everyone we can to Jesus.

            God never told us to ignore the warning signs and try to ‘fix” the world for him. He told us to wait and watch and trust God and have no fear of this world. He never told us to expect to be the forces behind saving the world, it is HIS responsibility to do that.

            Trying to ‘fix’ the SSM situation will divide the nation and God is capable of taking care of the situation without our help since there is no way that we can influence the situation now.

            Stand for what is right, but don’t try and tell others that we know better than everyone else. We are only special to God not the world. It just won’t work to keep telling them that our belief tops theirs. It doesn’t work in the reverse either.

          • Truth first

            From your other post I see you are taking motherhood seriously and are raising your children in a godly way. You must be commended for that. You take your time to explain what is right and wrong and that’s the best way to instill godliness in children. We did the same thing with our son, who learned that we took our cues from the Bible. It was not “Because I tell you so”, but mostly “because the Bible tells us so”. We referred to a higher authority than us, fallible parents.We needed no physical methods to make him respect his parents. Are you a home maker by any chance?

            We all have a different path to walk as we are all at different maturity levels in our faith and in different circumstances. After our justification (being reborn) we get sanctified shedding our old self, dying to self. That is an individual process during which God gives us opportunities to grow. Many growth moments hurt as we do not tend to grow in our comfort zones. So in that way he is NOT treating us all the same way because what would be appropriate for me would not necessarily fit you.

            God is good. Always. So he never treats you badly in the sense that you will receive from him a treatment, or allows a treatment, that you do not need/deserve in your walk with him or your sanctification. Yet some would consider the way God sometimes guides you, with persecution or a bad experience, or a rebuke, would be a bad experience. In spiritual sense it isn’t.

            A lesbian couple visited our church. They were welcome but from the beginning they were counseled about their living in sin. That upset them so much that for a while they did not come to church. When they realised the church elders did not reject them as people, and when they started to understand the Bible better, they saw the divine sense in the reprove of the elders and stopped living together, trying to be self-controlled where it came to their same sex attraction.

            God does not consider their struggle with homosexuality a sin, but blames them for giving in to it. in the same way he would condemn heterosexual promiscuity. Yet there is always forgiveness for those who repent.

          • Eldrida Urika

            OH PRAISE THE LORD AND GIVE HIM ALL THE GLORY!! HALLELUJAH!
            That is fantastic news! But because it was the love of God that helped them to open their eyes.

            Doesn’t this prove what I said about the approach being more about giving them the desire to want to turn to Jesus rather than needing that push about punishment?

            They changed, but not because of the threat, so much as the presentation of who/what God is inspired them to repent and serve the Lord. By showing them that they were more than the sin and could get passed it?

            Did I understand properly or am I misunderstanding why they converted? I know it involved the sin, because it has to if it is about Salvation by repentance.

            It sounds like this was over at least a couple of months since Church is usually once a week? Plus it could part of their decision be from the encouragement from the Elders phoning them that helped them over that hump of knowing about their sin and desiring to overcome them? I’d just like to see it repeated if it were possible. I would love to tell my Church leader about it.

            I’m really glad you told me. It gave me Joy to hear about that couple, although I can’t imagine how hard it is for them. I wouldn’t want to walk away from my husband like that and if I had to it would take all of my strength and faith as well as every bit of strength the God would provide to be able to. It would be like grieving for a loved one. So sad in that way.

            You and I agree on a lot of things and I really appreciate this discussion as I can see you are well versed in the scriptures too.
            It is nice to think there is another Christian with our beliefs here to help others see there are more than one Christian view depending on the religion. There aren’t very many of us on this board. It gets too stressing trying and not getting anywhere with the ones that post, but I was told there are people who read but do not post and I try to keep that in mind when I am – to be honest I think of it as a battle of scriptures – I can give them alternate scriptures to prove my point, and they have difficulty pressing back for some of them. So I am more concerned about the silent learners so they can be edified in the scriptures rather than a more limited view. The Gospel is sadly missing in many of the Christian beliefs, or it isn’t read, or something because I am always teaching about the gospel and they do not know what I am saying because they can’t recognize Jesus’ words. I find it very confusing, but I have a lot of patience (taught in my trials) for anything that I am asked to do for the Lord. At least I am confident in my knowledge because it is not always me who knows them but I am directed to them. Sometimes it happens a lot sometimes only randomly.
            I don’t think of our individual trials – lessons – as fair or unfair or the same as someone else’s as I know that those are given to us as individuals to aid in our growth, and I don’t see anything Jesus does for my benefit anything but glory to God.

            Blessings!

          • Truth first

            Sorry for late response. Am in the middle of moving house and internet connection is a problem. We have indeed a lot in common,E. Glory to God that he is able to even redirect same sex attraction feelings to something more godly. One feels for those struggling with SSA as there is not much help in a society increasingly open to gay and lesbianism.

          • Eldrida Urika

            I am curious, when they were emphasizing their sin, was it done in private or in front of the whole church?

          • Truth first

            Phew, Eldrida, I wouldn’t be able to tell you that. They were part of a “branch” of our church that is not our home church venue, so we have got the download from eyewitnesses and elders, but were not present ourselves. Will ask ask around if you’re interested…

            The world is usually skeptical about counseling of homosexuals, but there have most certainly been successful ones after which the same sex attraction disappeared orf was reduced. As I said, temptation only becomes sin when you give in to it, not when you struggle with it or try to run away from it.With like all temptations, be they sexual or otherwise sensual (food, gambling, alcohol) It is all a matter of self-control and part of the fruit of the Spirit

          • Eldrida Urika

            Looking at the Fruit of the Spirits in Gal. 5:22-23 Love, Joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance. There are several I can see being used for anyone to bring them to Jesus as all of them are good characteristics that people admire and well, you know, draw more by our actions and behavior to give the glory to our Father in Heaven. That behavior is taught in the Gospel as Jesus’ commands for us to obey that are about how he behaved as a perfect person, but still had the same problems with sin and temptation as we do because of the human side that he used while he was on earth to teach us what God had asked us to be like in the O.T. but with clearer instructions on what temptation is like as well as how to combat the enemy with scriptures as well as in ways deeper in the gospel.
            So I guess I can’t imagine anything ‘not being accomplished’ without the Fruit of the Spirit evident if not outstanding in the company it is in at the moment. Obeying Jesus’ commands is the way we are to identify other Christians and they are focused on our behavior and sin/temptation by the human Jesus, as opposed to the spiritual one who did the miracles to encourage belief in him, so he could help them understand and be able to follow him. that behavior helps resist temptation a lot all in itself. By being the way Jesus taught us to be, which is of the best behavior and character and a big part of His whole picture was about Love. Love was in the scriptures that Jesus spoke of sin too, usually spoken of at the end of the lesson he was teaching about sin and temptations.
            I have some issues in my life right now that I have to be off line for a while, but when I get back, maybe we can find each other to discuss things when that happens ok?
            God bless and keep up the good work here spreading the gospel to the people here and the silent readers too. Those are the ones I am most concerned about knowing about our belief too.
            Take care and God bless!!

          • TruthvLIes

            “It doesn’t matter what people do until they die or the end comes because Jesus told us that some will realize the error of their ways and turn to Jesus and he said we cannot know another’s heart and can not judge them the way he is able to. All we can do is behave well as examples and bring everyone we can to Jesus.”

            Jesus said to go and make disciples of ALL nations. I can’t se him meaning we sit around and be nice and sing Kumbaya.

            It seems to me that you choose to ignore the parts of the bible that does not fit your agenda.

          • TruthvLIes

            As one who was involved in the vote on SSM in Australia, and followed it every day on the media of all kinds, I can honestly say that the hate supposedly thrown around by christians did not exist.

            The hate that was thrown around, even to the point of trying to stop meetings going ahead came from the homosexuals.

            Most of the NO case warned of the consequences of legalising SSM such as freedom of speech and religion being removed and churches being forced to marry homosexuals.

            Apart from a very tiny few, people’s views towards homosexuals were not mentioned.

          • Truth first

            More or less what I expected. Good for you for making a stand!

          • Eldrida Urika

            I don’t believe pedophilia will ever be accepted. Too many people have children who they would not want to be hurt by someone like that.
            Well then the ones who are fussing about it outside of the church are the ones going against God’s Word.
            It is a fact, and nothing we do will change it.
            so it will be accepted regardless of our desires. What is the point of fussing about something that we have no power to change without God and he is leaving those things to Judgement day.
            Our focus should be on saving people not rebuking sinners who do not care about our beliefs.
            Jesus did not tell us to rebuke or any other trouble to non believers so trying to Force them to do God’s Will is not what God has asked us to do. He wants them willing. Rebuking them about a belief they do not have is not what God told us to do. He told us to leave them alone to have the punishment when it is HIS time.
            Spread the Gospel, Shine a light of goodness, help anyone who needs it, Love everyone without exception, Treat everyone the way we want to be treated, without exception, live a good life trying to not sin but repenting when we do slip. Being humble towards others, being able to stay calm in the midst of Chaos. Mostly we are to love as that is his command. to LOVE EVERYONE AS HE HAS LOVED US.
            You are welcome to try to show me a verse that tells us to rebuke sinners.
            Blessings!

          • Truth first

            The consensual sex ages have been lowered already in many countries, and with increased promiscuity and the doing away with taboos on big differences between the ages of sexual partners slowly disappearing, the slide to acceptance of pedophilia is not unlikely.

            I were doing something wrong that could end me in hot water, I would appreciate it if somebody would point it out to me, even if that warning hurts. Essentially you ARE correct: we can really only rebuke fellow Christians. Yet when asked about what we think about moral issues, all we have to say is: this is what the Bible tells me. The Bible is God’s word. I believe in God. What God says, goes.
            These are the guidelines for my life as a Christian. Too many self-professing Christians don’t do that and do not realise the gravity of the sin they are by implication continuing, endorsing or even advocating. If somebody claims that two people who are living in continued and unrepented sin, can still go to heaven, we must tell these people: that is not what the Bible says.

          • TruthvLIes

            So you don’t believe padophillia will ever be accepted?

            Strewth! you are so naive. In the USA, when SSM was legalised NAMBLA geared up to put their case to have man/boy love legalised.

            They said their attraction to boys was something they were born with so it should be legalised.

            What you believe is irrelevant. What Satan wants is more important to understand and so far the church has made utter fools of itself pandering to every Tom, Dick and Homosexual.

    • ppp777

      Because in their hearts they know its true .

      • ThroatwobblerMangrove

        You don’t know what other people think. And you never will.

        • ppp777

          What comes out of your mouth and your actions is enough for me and God certainly knows , and he call people like you ” fools ” , and that makes it absolute .

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            No. You do not and cannot know what others think. And you don’t speak for God either.

          • ppp777

            The bible does and that is what he call the likes of you .

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            All you’re doing is taking the things you hate and saying God hates them too. That’s lame.

          • Eldrida Urika

            One thing you missed. Jesus told us that many sinners will turn to Jesus, and to leave sinners alone so they will not turn away because of our behavior. So keep it in mind that every sinner is a potential Christian like Jesus said in the scriptures.

          • Eldrida Urika

            The Christians who are on this board often act without Christian attitudes and yet they are allowed to be rude to others, so if you consider people telling their point of view a problem then prove you are a Christian by showing the Fruit of the spirit instead of demeaning them. Love, Joy, Peace, Long-suffering, Gentleness, Goodness, Faith, Meekness and temperance: these are how we are supposed to know each other as Christians. I have a hard time finding the Christians here because they do not show these at all.
            Maybe if we treated them like we want to be treated they might not fight back and we could tell them more about Jesus instead of making all Christians look like we are not good people. If Christians act badly towards someone, you have to expect them to treat you the same way.

          • Nick Halflinger

            Matthew 5:22 – “Whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”

  • TimothyJ

    Just a thought, but why do you think all these leftists, lgbtqrxyz and other strange anti-truth folks are so fond of Islam and will go out of their way to support and defend it when that political system disguised as religion is very strictly intolerant of their views and lifestyle? Could it be they all work for the same boss? That being said, nearly all nations that once called themselves Christian but who have turned from God are now being invaded and overrun by foreign peoples who WILL impose their laws given time. Blind, blind they all our in their rejection of God. This is of course good news for true Christians but very sorrowful news for the world.

    • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

      Amen.

    • TSawesome

      Many LGBT people *are* Christians.

      • mikegillespie

        No way.

        • TSawesome

          Yes way. I’m living proof! 🙂

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            They appear not to know about churches like the Metropolitan Community Church.

          • ppp777

            ” Church ” , a church of satan more like .

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            And they would say exactly the same about you. No True Scotsman fallacy.

          • ppp777

            The bible and logic is on my side , neither is on their side .

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            No True Scotsman fallacy. They don’t become any less Christian just because you hate them.

          • ppp777

            That is almost a straw man argument , they are certainly not Christians because what they believe and do , hence that is why I hate them , as I said the bible and logic is against them .

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Please tell me what definition of what a Christian is which they are violating to the point that they have annulled their Christianity.

          • TSawesome

            You are breaking Christ’s direct commandment to LOVE, not hate, your neighbor — who is *everyone*.

            Judging others is not your job. That belongs to Christ alone. Not for you to decide if someone is a Christian. Not for you to decide if they should live or die. NOT FOR YOU.

      • ppp777

        Another oxymoron .

    • james blue

      What makes you think they are fond of Islam?

    • ThroatwobblerMangrove

      “Anti-truth”.

      The language you choose gets more and more detached from reality.

      • TimothyJ

        Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.
        —Miyamoto Musashi

        • ThroatwobblerMangrove

          No one consciously opposes truth. That’s silly. Why would they?

        • Nick Halflinger

          Miyamoto Musashi – You are quoting a 16th century, atheist, Buddhist, samurai swordmaster concerning truth to justify your interpretation of first century Christian writings as applied to current people with whom you don’t agree.

    • TheKingOfRhye

      I’m a leftist I guess, but I’m no more “fond of Islam” than I am fond of any of the other religions I don’t believe in.

      • TimothyJ

        I like your reply, it is both restrained and honest. To you I extend my apologies for my hasty and judgmental words.

        • TheKingOfRhye

          I suspect the reason some Christians think people like me are “fond of Islam” is that they think Christianity should have some sort of special, preferred treatment. I’m a secularist; I want all religions to be on equal standing. (as well as those of no religion, of course)

  • mr goody two shoes

    And in Norway hundreds of people have helped God save themselves by making a decision to believe in Jesus. All thanks and honor to Graham and God and them selves. What’s wrong with these two pictures one in Australia and the other in Norway?

    • Tangent002 ✓

      Same-sex marriage has been legal in Norway since 2009, and well before that Norway recognized same-sex registered partnerships.

  • mr goody two shoes

    This really is
    No worse than despising infant baptism or despising being saved by Christ alone and not by a decision you make. Or any other sins . they all break the first commandment and break any commandment the bible says you break them all. When you do not listen to what God says then your realy a god unto your self. Your setting your self up as god over God.

  • This style 10/6

    Quite a few folk here getting worked up about another country extending marriage to same sex couples. I think a lot of the vitriol is because steadily, country by country it is expanding. I mean, who would have thought Ireland (not the benighted northern bit) once called more Catholic than the pope, would vote for same sex marriage. Now Australia has joined the club.

    The real source of there anger is that they can do nothing about it once it becomes legal. They can complain of course but that won’t make same sex marriage go away.

    Another thing i notice is that the hate is all about male same sex marriage; no one seems to notice that females probably marry more than males. The Premier of Ontario is a married lesbian aand no one in Ontario gives a hoot. (Well there are a few!)

    Who knows, one day Russia, Saudi and other medieval jurisdictions will join up too.

    • zeddicuskotor

      In 50 years these same churches will be in favor of gay marriage and will conveniently forget this era where they were intolerant bigots.

      Same thing happened 50 years ago. Opposition against interracial marriage was widespread in churches at the time. Now it’s just 10% of the population and no mainstream church is that racist.

      Social progress forces churches to progress as well. Conservatives are just annoyed by this because their ideaology is fear based. They need targets to fearmonger on and the list of acceptable targets keeps shrinking.

      • MCrow

        Women’s rights is another area where we can still see the progress slowly slipping into ideology. Before that it was anti-Semitism, before that it was slavery…

        The list goes on. I think Christianity was progressive at it’s conception, but it’s been 2000 years and it hasn’t aged well

        • ppp777

          Because it has been rejected for ideology’s

          • MCrow

            Ideology’s what? You can’t use a possessive without an object.

            If you mean ‘ideologies,’ then yes, it has. And…your point? Christianity is fading because it is failing to be relevant in a culture where it cannot impose it’s fear and ignorance. The more information has become readily available, the more Christianity fades. The fact that many Christians are anti-science, anti-LGBT, anti-abortion, anti-birth control…anti-many things, but not for anything, shows that they simply use fear as a method to enforce compliance. If religion wants to continue, it needs to figure out why people are leaving it behind.

          • ppp777

            Where does anyone with two brain cells and above begin to the response you have just given , you have to be one of the most deluded individuals I have ever come across , you are a total reprobate and certainly [ unless I am very very wrong ] heading for hell , you are beyond redemption , if I thought I could get through to you I would , but you are clearly a case of ” don’t throw things that are holy to the dogs , do not cast your pearl before swine lest they rent you and trample them under foot ” , I very much hope I am wrong but I very much doubt it .

          • MCrow

            You could start by making an actual argument instead of ad hominums

          • ppp777

            You start by thinking critically [ if your capable ] .

          • MCrow

            “You’re”

    • MCrow

      Society marches on

  • mr goody two shoes

    When the church or the state go against each other in declaring what’s the right thing is .society begins to break down and becomes divided against each other. And the division grows and eventually civil war not peace breaks out.

    • zeddicuskotor

      Nope. What happens is that society progresses past the bigotries inherited in churches to the point where the churches either die off from lack of parishioners or update their dogma to match current social trends. That sort of thing happens constantly.

    • Tangent002 ✓

      Right. Because that’s exactly what happened after the Loving v. Virginia decision.

    • TSawesome

      Drama, much?

  • mr goody two shoes

    Australia won’t last half the time of Rome and just like the Roman empire. it will be in rubble. and these so called mighty leaders will be dead in a few short years. But The word of the Lord indurith forever.

    • Tangent002 ✓

      The Fall of Rome didn’t begin until after same sex unions were forbidden.

    • TSawesome

      Spell-Check “endureth” forever…

  • Vince

    Pause and consider the words Peter used to conclude the Pentecost sermon:
    “Saved yourselves from this perverse generation” (Acts 2:40).

    The word translated “perverse” is the Greek skolias – literally, it means “crooked” or “bent.”

    Stop and compare Peter’s audience with our own disgusting generation.

    • TSawesome

      Hmmm.

      You think that two people who commit to each other for life in Fidelity, Love and Faithfulness is “disgusting”?

      Wow.

      • Vince

        Love and fidelity have nothing to do with homosexuals.

        Btw, if reading stuff you don’t agree with upsets you, I suggest you stick with blogs you agree with. No need to stress yourself by finding out that people don’t all see the world exactly as you do. When you troll a Christian blog, you just might run a Christian or two.

        • TSawesome

          Excuse me? I’m here to discuss. You seem immediately overly upset that I don’t share your views. That does not make me a troll, so what are you doing now?

          If you don’t want to talk to me, don’t. A public forum is for exchanging ideas, respectfully.

          • Eldrida Urika

            Exactly! It is not always easy to find another poster that wants to discuss without stones being thrown. There are a few here that freak out when you prove them wrong, and so they call me evil even though I quoted scriptures..
            Good luck finding someone to discuss. I prefer to discuss but others here often refuse if you’re opposed to their personal beliefs, or even if you have a different religion they insist one is right and one is wrong. Good to meet a person that likes discussion! Blessings!

          • TSawesome

            Thanks, Eldrida 🙂

        • Lexical Cannibal

          Hey there, Bisexual man here, reporting in from his 14+yr. monogamous relationship. I guess my love and fidelity don’t count? Or do I get a pass, since I’m only “half gay?”

          • TSawesome

            Thank you, Lex! Married lesbian here and also completely, happily monogamous! 🙂

        • Michael C

          No need to stress yourself by finding out that people don’t all see the world exactly as you do.

          If this is your philosophy, why did you read this article?

          You’re the one who came to this website to read an article complaining about a bunch of people who don’t see the world exactly as you do. Why stress yourself out like that? Maybe you should only read articles about people who see the world exactly as you do.

          • TSawesome

            Thank you, Michael!

      • Reason2012

        So if an 18 year old girl and her dad “commit to each other for life in Fidelity, Love and Faithfulness” that’s also not disgusting? So “Fidelity Love and Faithfulness” trumps all? No. Basic biology shows the truth that anti-Christ leftist fascists seek to deny in every way they can, even claiming a man is a woman if he merely says the words.

        • TSawesome

          You misconstrue to the benefit of your own agenda.
          Goodbye.

      • Same sex sex aka homosexuality is a perversion and disgusting. It is forbidden by God.

        • TSawesome

          No, sorry Doug — but that’s just not true… Hey, thanks for sharing your *opinion*.

          • It is God not me that has forbidden same sex sex in both the Old and New Covenants.

          • TSawesome

            Pagan temple prostitution. FTFY.
            Bye, Doug.

          • And that means what? Do you really think that?

          • Which in that case was same sex sex and forbidden by God.

          • TSawesome

            Heterosexuals, Doug.

          • And homosexuals and both are sexual immorality and is forbidden by God.

          • TSawesome

            No, Doug. Your opinion is not the choice of Christ. Thanks for playing… Bye!

          • And what opinion would that be?

          • ppp777

            Don’t bother with reprobates

          • Before we came to Christ we were all reprobates.

          • ppp777

            ” And God gave them over to a reprobate mind ” , hmm , I don’t think so .

          • TruthvLIes

            Yes, sorry sawsome..but it is true. It is a case that you have not caught up with the truth yet. Not that you would want to as you can’t handle it. That is why the yes propaganda was all lies.

      • TruthvLIes

        Who are you referring to? If you mean homosexuals the evidence is clear they don’t know the meaning of the word fidelity or how to be faithful so perhaps you had better choose someone else.

        • ThroatwobblerMangrove

          Given the huge number of them wanting to get married, maybe they clearly DO know the meaning of the word fidelity, but you just don’t want to admit that.

          • TruthvLIes

            Huge number wanting to get married!!!!! In Sweden I think it was, only 2% of 2% of the population wanted to marry a homosexual after it was legalised. If that is huge, I was even worse at maths than I thought I was.

            Denis Altman, a lecturer at Latrobe University and leading spokesman on homosexual affairs said on a Compass programme discussing same sex marriage that homosexuals do not aspire to monogamy. That is a heterosexual concept.

            In research done by homosexuals amongst homosexual couples they found that 72% of them were not monogamous. They had sex with someone outside of the relationship EVERY WEEK.

            In a programme on SBS TV they showed a programme about same sex marriage in the UK. They found that fidelity amongst homosexual couples was a figment of people’s imagination.

            As an example they showed a married couple where one of them went to the local homosexual sauna bath every Thursday to have sex with as many men as he could.

            What I am prepared to admit is the evidence, which is out there if you care to see it but I know homosexuals cannot handle the truth so they prefer not to see it.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Your research, or lack thereof, is offensive, disgusting garbage. To say there are no monogamous gay couples is like saying there are no monogamous straight ones.

          • TruthvLIes

            This is what I said truth hater…..

            In research done by homosexuals amongst homosexual couples they found that 72% of them were not monogamous. They had sex with someone outside of the relationship EVERY WEEK

            Now do tell me where you see “no monogamous homosexual couples” in that sentence?

            And calling the research done by homosexuals “offensive, disgusting garbage” is as clear as anything that you can’t handle the truth.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            What is your source? We both know you are lying.

          • TruthvLIes

            Answer the question.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            I can’t. Your statistics are nonsense.

          • TruthvLIes

            Typical denial of the truth response.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Cite your sources then and stop lying.

          • TruthvLIes

            I don’t cite sources to atheists because the bible tells us not to throw pearls before swine.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Then too bad the Christians who might be taking you seriously can’t either because you’ve given them nothing to work with.

          • TruthvLIes

            Asinine in the extreme.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Yes you are, aren’t you? Why don’t you give me something worthy of argument?

          • TruthvLIes

            I don’t cast pearls before swine. Can’t you read?

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            No, you actively avoid being honest and go straight for name calling.

          • TruthvLIes

            And you are honest?????? Joke!!

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Provide an example or shut it.

          • TruthvLIes

            Better get that humungous chip of your shoulder as it is showing. Terrible when you can’t handle the truth sunshine. It sort of screws you up and spits you out and then grabs the next idiot that comes along trying to defend all sorts of rubbish and nonsensical beliefs.

          • TruthvLIes

            And you are honest?????? Joke

          • TruthvLIes

            The bible is very clear wobbler. You don’t cast pearls before swine.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            So you can’t cite your sources and be honest then. Thanks for playing.

          • TruthvLIes

            Why should that bother you seeing as you are afraid of the truth evidenced by the fact that you call the truth lies and lies the truth.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Which of the scientific principles I have mentioned is so threatening to you that you cower in fear of it and call it a lie?

          • TruthvLIes

            You have a very vivid imagination. Just confirms that you can’t handle the truth.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            So you just make noise and spout crap. No one cares.

          • TruthvLIes

            Your avoidance of the truth must be terribly painful for you. Probably gives you ulcers.

          • Eldrida Urika

            Trying to make homosexuals like they are the way they created a whole show and that doesn’t make you question it’s legitimacy? The show was created FOR the purpose of making them worse than heterosexuals by not giving comparable statistics so it is not a realistic study in the first place to say it like ALL gays are like that is the equivalent of saying that ALL Christians treat every person who is not a Christian like they are dirty people. Do all Christians treat everyone badly or are we supposed to behave properly in all situations? You see generalizations are rarely accurate and it is wrong to believe any statistics that use too wide a subject definition, and should include a comparison to make the study and show the facts as two groups.
            Heterosexuals cheat just as often as gays do, probably more as there are more of them than gays. So I believe this was focused making gays look bad instead of a study that is about more than one group.
            My opinion of course but considering they do the same inaccurate studies about us (Christians) to make us look bad too. Why would you want to use the same methods to inaccurately show anything so one sided even if you don’t agree with gays, you should consider Why they only speak about gays when they are not the only group that has high statistics of cheating and divorce. Sorry that study was done by a bigot.

    • ThroatwobblerMangrove

      So why have you taken “Saved yourselves from this perverse generation” and assumed that means gay marriage? I read that same passage and just assume it means rape and murder.

      • ppp777

        Sodomy and [ so called ] same sex marriage is as perverse as it gets .

        • ThroatwobblerMangrove

          Wow, sure glad I never went to your church then. What a horrible thing to teach people.

        • TSawesome

          Judging and condemning others to death (yes, you said that) is perverse.

      • TruthvLIes

        Just assume? I just assume all Ford’s are a lemon because the one I bought was.

        • TheKingOfRhye

          Seriously? That would be just like me saying “I met one Christian I didn’t like, therefore I assume all Christians are jerks.”. Or replace “Christian” with other things, like say, a race or sexual orientation….

          • TruthvLIes

            You are the one that “assumed” not me.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            How am I assuming anything?

          • TruthvLIes

            Duh!

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Oh, well, thanks for clearing that up. (that’s sarcasm, by the way)

          • TruthvLIes

            No sarcasm needed as that seems to be the level of your comprehension.

    • TSawesome

      So you’re a “glass half empty” kinda guy. OK.

  • Lydia Church

    It’s a sin. Judgment follows.
    Argument: over.

    • Nick Halflinger

      So is divorce – but it is still legal.

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        strawman ……..

        • ThroatwobblerMangrove

          That is not an example of a straw man.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            it is the absolute definition of it ……….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            A straw man argument is when your opponent accuses you of making a point you never made. Please explain how that occurred here.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “A straw man argument is when your opponent accuses you of making a point you never made. Please explain how that occurred here.”

            Title:
            Australians Vote in Favor of Same-Sex ‘Marriage’ in Nationwide Postal Survey

            “Lydia Church • 3 days ago
            It’s a sin. Judgment follows.
            Argument: over.”

            “Nick Halflinger Lydia Church • 2 days ago
            So is divorce – but it is still legal.”

            hmmmmm …… she made no mention of “divorce” ….. and neither did the article ….. STRAWMAN …………..

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            That isn’t a straw man, it is a simple comparison.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            sure …. a STRAWMAN comparison ……….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            No, not a strawman…period.
            Divorce is a comparison being introduced for the first time by Nick. It’s not something Lydia mentioned that is being misrepresented.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            again … whatever you have to tell yourself ………

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            If you weren’t impervious to facts you might actually learn something.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            back at cha sport ….. you are invulnerable to them ……….

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Whatever you say…sport.

          • TSawesome

            Are you ISP with a new avatar?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            my Comments 23924 ……. they are wide open ….. you be the judge ……

          • TSawesome

            Nice “Non-Answer”…

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you can research EVERY post of 23900-some made in the last years ….. you can answer your own question ……..

          • TSawesome

            Oh, sure… Like *that’s* all I’ve got to do today!
            *eyeroll*

            Bye, “Amos”!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you asked the question ….. if you do not want to investigate it ….. YOUR problem, not mine ….. any denial would be a waste of time …… and i am not interested enough to engage in it ……….. L8TR …………

          • TSawesome

            L8TR

    • TSawesome

      That’s your opinion. Judge yourself, not others.
      Argument: over.

  • Reason2012

    People still believe these “surveys” to let them know what they’re thinking?

    • Tangent002 ✓

      When the survey has 12 million respondents, yes.

      • Reason2012

        No, they CLAIM there are 12 million respondents. You do know how trivial it is to fake that many, or change numbers, do you not?

        • Michael C

          Sure buddy. It’s fake. It’s all fake. Fake news!

          The “real truth” is that a majority of Ozzies truly do oppose the equal treatment of their gay friends, neighbors, and family members. The Australian government just spent over a hundred million dollars and nearly 80% of registered voters responded to the official plebiscite but it was all just a conspiracy orchestrated by the Radical Gay Agenda to turn everyone gay.

          • Reason2012

            Again, do you know how trivial it is for a handful of people in power of such system to fake the supposed count, are you ignorant of such things, or are you just intent on deceiving. And it’s huge power if someone can fake such things, convincing millions of a lie in the process and affecting policy and law.

            And here’s your perfect example in recent history (a.k.a. fact) of such obvious faking of data:
            You do recall how even here in America we were told time and again by these “polls” how Hillary was ahead in all those states she got soundly trashed? That’s not just the polls being a bit off, that’s called those polls were outright faked one way or another.

            They use these supposed polls to try convincing people that “everyone else” wants a certain thing – that in this case the majority wanted Hillary – but another FACT is that no one can ever find this “majority” except in these supposed polls. In the case of Hillary her rallies were sparse – could never find that “majority” that supposedly supported her, and she lost in most of those states we were “told” the polls put her ahead. While Trump’s rallies were standing room only.

            “turn everyone gay”

            I never said any such thing. Now you’re just being flat out dishonest using fake hysteria and lies about what I said to try making a point because you cannot address the FACT that the left of late has been faking polls to try swaying public opinion and influence policy and law.

            You yourself just posted in support of a teacher being suspended because he did not call a boy who claims he’s a girl “she” – that’s the real fascist danger of people like you – pretending to be all about “equal rights” but soon instead promoting fascism treating any who dare oppose your anti-science, anti-Christian agenda as outright criminals to be swiftly dealt with and gotten out of the way.

            America is waking up to the fascist “activists” who are by abuse of law and use of threat forcing everyone else to support with behavior, actions and words their anti-science propaganda, treating as criminals anyone who do not. That behavior is the very essence of fascism, of which you are in full support.

          • Michael C

            Got it. Total conspiracy.

            They use these supposed polls to try convincing people that “everyone else” wants a certain thing – that in this case the majority wanted Hillary – but another FACT is that no one can ever find this “majority” except in these supposed polls.

            The majority did vote for Clinton. Facts. They’re tricky things.

          • Reason2012

            The majority did vote for Clinton.

            Re-read what I wrote, Michael before you lie. I said “state by state”. The FACT is many states had supposed polls with her up in the double digits, yet she lost in most of them, proving it was just faked poll “data” in every one of those states. You instead lie and try to turn it back into country-wide to deflect and obfuscate, showing everyone else that you’re just a dishonest deceiver.

            And since you brought up the country:
            – On the recounts it was shown that votes for her were criminally counted up to 6 times each – and they pulled the plug on the recount for obvious reasons. Local media reported it (do a search on it) , but MSM covered it up, including Fox.
            – It was shown that MILLIONS of people who are not Americans criminally voted for her and democrats criminally counted them as votes from citizens.

            So by those Facts (those tricky things), it’s shown that she really did NOT get the majority even when you add up the entire country.

            Please think twice before you try to lie again.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Hillary, since you bring her up, wasn’t soundly trashed. She won the popular vote. I wouldn’t call that a sound trashing.

          • Reason2012

            False. Remember the recounts? It exposes the blatant voter fraud treason being committed:
            On the recounts it was shown that votes for her were criminally counted up to 6 times each – and they pulled the plug on the recount for obvious reasons. Local media reported it (do a search on it) , but MSM covered it up, including Fox
            It was shown that MILLIONS of people who are not Americans criminally voted for her and democrats criminally counted them as votes from citizens.
            All her rallies were a shadow of what Trump’s rallies were, which shows Americans really did NOT vote for her as much as we were lied to.
            Even the polls on every state she lost were false claiming she had clear leads, even in the double digits.
            I would look up more information than just the liberal MSM who has shown themselves to be little more than propaganda passed off as news.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            I think with all the talk of collusion from Russia, you should reserve your judgement. I’m willing to bet there was far more crookedness going on in the Trump camp than the Hillary one.

            As for the statements you make above, they are nonsense and you haven’t got proof.

          • ppp777

            Similar things happened in England .

          • TSawesome

            The fascists are those who wish to impose their personal, narrow view of Christianity (which many other Christians do not hold) on the entire population.

          • Reason2012

            Not surprising, as many do not hold to what God has made plain, that many “professing” Christians do not hold to, as Christ even points out most who claim to be Christians will be cast into_hell anyway, that few will be saved.

            “[Jesus said] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
            Matthew 7:21-23

            “[Jesus said] Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.”
            Matthew 7:13-15

            “[Jesus said] And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kìll the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath kìlled hath power to cast into hèll; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.”
            Luke 12:4-5

            “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.”
            Proverbs 1:7

          • TSawesome

            Judging and condemning others isn’t our job. That’s for Christ alone.

          • Reason2012

            I didn’t judge. I told you how Christ / God will judge.
            And yes, taking your own advice, you should not judge Christians who follow God’s Words fascists.

          • TSawesome

            Yet you presume to know how Christ will judge another…

          • ppp777

            Reprobate you mean .

          • TSawesome

            (You forgot your sarcasm tag)

        • Tangent002 ✓

          This isn’t an opinion poll. It’s a referendum performed via postal survey.

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        and “12 meellion” cant be wrong ….. oh wait …. YES they can …..

        • TSawesome

          And YOU can’t be wrong… Oh, wait… YES, you can…

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            GOD cannot be wrong and is not wrong …. and is not a liar …… the dictionary is written by men who are ALL proven liars ……….. and if what they say varies with scripture ….. then it is a lie ……………

          • TSawesome

            Wow.
            So now you’re *also* more knowledge that the dictionary…
            Okaaaaay…

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “So now you’re *also* more knowledge that the dictionary…”

            sorry … not about me ….. FAIL ……… try again ……….

          • TSawesome

            You’ve lost any more entertainment value, sorry.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            see ya …. would not want to be ya ………..

          • MCrow

            Interesting. YOU=GOD in your mind

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Interesting. YOU=GOD in your mind”

            Interesting. YOU=GOD in your mind … back at cha sport ………..

          • MCrow

            You’re the one who was accused of being wrong and defaulted to saying what God thinks of a subject. I make no such claims. You, by contrast, do

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            liars get ignored … BECAUSE THEY ARE LIARS ….. did you not EVER learn that ……. you lie to yourself and now you want us to believe YOUR LIES …. LIARS get ignored as they should …………

          • MCrow

            Again, you are the one who took an accusation of being wrong and declared that god cannot be wrong. Taking it so personally tells me I’m on to something

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … just bored with your “accusations” …… YOU are dismissed ……

          • MCrow

            If you could counter them, you would

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i do not justify lies ……….. sorry …. you are IGNORED ……….

          • MCrow

            I’m asking you to justify your ‘truth.’ But you can’t, can you?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            because …. simply …. there is no “my truth” ….. so it is a lying and stupid request ……. there is no such thing ….. i do not defend what i do not believe ….. and i do not believe in “your truth” and “my truth” ……. it is an idiotic request ………….

          • MCrow

            Ok, Amos: I’ve made a claim. I said you conflate your pride with god as your response to being accused of being wrong is that God cannot be wrong. I use, as evidence, that your reaction to being accused of being wrong is saying that God cannot be wrong, which is curious as that defense would only apply if you (Amos) = God. So offer a counter argument or I am going to go on with assuming that I am correct and that your ‘god’ is merely your own ego given a fancy name.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ” I said you conflate your pride with god”

            again …. lies are not a “claim” ….. they are just lies ………..

          • MCrow

            You should be able to show why it is a lie, then. Otherwise, you’re just saying it is a lie. Allow me an example: what you just said is a lie, I am telling the truth. Oh, look, an unfounded accusation which has no bearing or proof. Just. Like. Yours.

            Go ahead and prove it is a lie or admit that you can’t. If you post without evidence, I’ll take it as your concession.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            no … i do not have to show you that …. i am not here to make a personal defense of every insult you want to hurl ….. this is a christian forum … and the topic here is Christ and christianity …..

          • MCrow

            You concede then. Good to know

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i concede you make insulting remarks …..

          • MCrow

            Then you have evidence that what I said was a lie?

          • TruthvLIes

            Of course we won’t talk about atheists who lie all the time when they say God does not exist. They never ever produce any proof of their claim but christians are supposed to provide proof that God does exist.

            The truth is atheists do believe that God exists although they deny this. They deny this because they don’t want to concede control over their lives to him so denial is their best defence.

          • MCrow

            See, this is imposing your way of thinking, same as Amos before. You think that because you believe in God, well, everyone must! I acknowledge people believe in God, but I don’t see the reason why. All evidence I see points to naturalistic explanations requiring no deity, and the only evidence is an old collection of stories happening in a specific time and place and context, no different from any other mythos.

          • TruthvLIes

            More mumbo jumbo from a paid up member of the atheist club.

            Did you know that atheists have been saying this for thousands of years and did you know it has not made a scrap of difference.

            So do you know how we know this? Simple. There are approx 2.6 billion christians on the earth as of today. How many atheists are there?

            And why on earth do you think that I am going to ditch a faith that misleads me for 70 years if I am wrong, which I am not, for one that is going to send me to hell for eternity if I am wrong?

            There is no logic to that at all. Like me being told, buy a Ford and it will last for 10 years and when it stop running you still have to keep it, but if you buy a Mercedes it will last 50 years so I go out and buy a Ford.

            I would be living in a fool’s paradise just like you are.

            Did you know you are talked about in the bible? Yes that is right. It says a fool has said in his heart there is no God.

            Hi fool. Having a nice day?

          • MCrow

            Ok, let me go ahead and address what you think passes for arguments.

            If numbers are a factor, know that Christian numbers are dropping, and continue to drop faster year by year. The fastest rising religious category? “None.” We don’t evangelize or have to shout our truths. Religion does a bang up job of pushing people out.

            As to being damned to hell, well, you’ll have to show why the Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Shinto, Pagans, and Zoroastrians aren’t better than your option. Given that you just seem to enjoy being superior and belonging to a super exclusive club that strokes your ego…I’m not seeing why I should join. Seems to just make you insufferable.

            Pascal’s wager is a poor argument, particularly since it leads to the notion of trying to appease all religions on the off chance that they are correct.

            As to being a fool, as Socrates noted, the fool believes himself wise. I am well aware of how little I know. That said, I studied theology and the Bible extensively. I eventually came to see that it had nothing particularly special that could not be found in the myriad of other cultural myths

          • TruthvLIes

            One. Christian numbers are not dropping. They are increasing by the day. In China it is something like 10,000 day. In India it is thousands. In the Middle East muslims are converting to christianity in droves because Jesus is appearing to them in dreams and visions.

            I know that you want their numbers to be dropping but it ain’t the case. Even in America, over the last fifty years the numbers have remained constant.

            I don’t know what religion does as I am not involved in it. My faith is based on a relationship with a person so I don’t need religion.

            Sorry to say for you, I don’t have an ego as I am dead and my life is hid with Christ in God.

            Pascal’s wager is only a poor argument if you are on the wrong end of it which atheists are. If it is true and it is, then you are a complete fool to say it is a poor argument.

            But then atheist specialise in denial to avoid the truth.

          • MCrow

            Religion as a whole is dying off, not just Christianity. The largest growing religious affiliation is “none” according to polls. Right now, “none” sits at around 1.1 billion.

            I’d love to see sources on any of your conversion rates. Any source will do.

            Your faith is a religion, and you can deny it all you want, but it fits literally every marker of a religion. Walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and isn’t taxed like a duck…

            How are you sure you aren’t on the wrong side of Pascal’s wager? Hmm? What if Hinduism is correct? Or Norse Paganism? Or Luciferianism? You need to appease those gods too, or you’re not actually following Pascal’s wager as, if you’re wrong about them, you could be condemned to eternal suffering.

            You’ve yet to provide a single shred of verifiable evidence despite claiming to have it. Let’s go, or I shall, like with almost every poster, assume you are just saying you have it while not having a single bit.

          • TruthvLIes

            As I said, I am not involved in religion so I cannot speak for it especially as it has no interest to me.

            Your comment saying that my faith is religion only goes to show how little you know about the subject matter but that is a typical atheist.They are experts on everything but in actual fact know very little about anything.

            Of course religion is dying off for you because you want it to be. As I said my faith is around 2.6 billion and growing so I will leave you to deny that one.

            As I have already said, Pascal’s wager has been appraised by me and I have chosen to take the least gamble. At most I lose 70 years if I am wrong If you are wrong you lose eternity. if you want to make that sort of gamble be my guest.

            And as I have said because of past experiences with atheists, I do not cast pearls before swine. You can rant and rave all you like but I will not do what is contrary to what is taught in scripture.

  • ISA41:10

    Homosexuality is a sin, period!

    • ThroatwobblerMangrove

      No it isn’t. Period.

    • TSawesome

      Left-handedness is a sin, period!
      /sarcasm

  • Well, it looks like Australia has a majority of freedom and happiness loving people. Good for them! Last time I looked, neither the U.S. nor Australia where theocracies. The religious right has no right to dictate to the rest of the population how they should live.

    The real sin here is that some people insist that the government leave them alone but have no problem whatsoever using the government to bludgeon the rest of society into abiding by their religious beliefs, including preventing some people from seeking happiness through marriage.

    I’ve yet to hear any fundamentalist tell me exactly how he is harmed by the marriage two people of the same gender. Why not simply leave them alone to seek happiness according to the dictates of their conscience, and just be content to believe that they will suffer eternal burning torture in Hell, compliments of your loving god? That should make you happy.

  • Reason2012

    I’ve yet to hear any fundamentalist tell me exactly how he is harmed by the marriage two people of the same gender.

    The famous false statement meant to get people to drop their guard until it’s too late. Now people are sued, fined, suspended, fired, put out of business and more when they do not violate their own beliefs and do no support homosexuality, transgenderism in word and in deed, showing the entire movement is really fascism. Tto get started they start with the lie “how will this affect you?”, then later you’ll find out how it will affect you when it’s too late.

    How will an 18 year old girl marrying her dad and uncle affect you? Same logic, but suddenly they will pretend to realize “how will it affect you?” is no longer the end all of decisions on laws and policy, which of course exposes their dishonesty.

    • This style 10/6

      They are fined when they discriminate against persons. If you can’t serve everyone equally, get out of business

  • mikegillespie

    If they had taken a survey in 1850 in America, most people were OK with slavery.

    Morality is not poll-driven.

  • Robin Egg

    Where have all the moderators gone? 355 comments at this writing and I would wager that seventy percent of the comments are from trolls and socks. What a waste.

  • master_chief_usn

    This just proves that most Aussies are as stupid as most of us Yanks. (And some Aussies LOOK as stupid, too, judging from the above photo.)

  • TruthvLIes

    The vote was far from overwhelming. Of all the people who could vote and were sent voting forms, only 48.7% voted yes. That means the vote was lost.

    • Michael C

      31% of registered voters were enough to elect Trump.

      • TruthvLIes

        If memory serves me, the question was not about Donald Trump.

  • TruthvLIes

    I have written to Alan Joyce three times and said it is hypocritical to support same sex marriage here and have a business link up with Etihad Airlines owned by the United Arab Republic, where homosexuallity is illegal and carries the death penalty.

    Every one should write to him and criticise his hypocrisy.

  • Amos Moses – He>i

    PETER HITCHENS: The transgender zealots are destroying truth itself
    By Peter Hitchens for The Mail on Sunday
    PUBLISHED: 00:05 GMT, 19 November 2017 | UPDATED: 07:52 GMT, 19 November 2017

    lgblT …. the transwhatever has ALWAYS been there ……….

  • ISA41:10

    Jesus said “it would be just like the days of Sodom and Gomorrah before he returns”!!

    We are VERY CLOSE!!

  • Truth first

    For a Christian Mark Twain’s adage should ring true:

    “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.”

    Christians are by default cautious about how the majority of the world thinks. If you constantly find yourself on the side of the majority of people in the world on moral and spiritual matters, it is time to take stock and see where you stand in relation to God and Jesus Christ.

    The gay and lesbian issue in Australia shows that beautifully. Christians and non-Christian, under the guise of “love and tolerance” alike have stopped reasoning and are aping irrational thought on an unprecedented scale. Let’s steer clear as Christians of the abomination and steadfastly profess what the Bible says on these matters.